Conference napalm::guitar

    Let's hear it for old folkies! (I was president of the Folk Song
    Society of Greater Boston about 10 years ago.) 

    First, second, and third choice for a music store are all the
    Music Emporium, on Mass. Ave. Cambridge.
    
    Note that for me, at least, a 12-string is easier on the fingers
    than a 6-string (steel), since the individual string tension
    is lower if you tune the guitar one tone (two frets) low (which
    is a common technique on 12-strings) and the pressure on the
    fingers is spread out more.
    
    I think it's important to get a well-made 12-string, since a cheaper
    one is more likely to pull apart. I don't know what prices are going
    for these days, so I can't give you much advice there; mine is a
    custom martin based on the D-12-28. I would GUESS that a Martin
    D-12-20 would go used for between $600 and $800, and Guild probably
    wouldn't be far behind. Check with the Music Emporium for other
    makes. 
        

    Does anybody have the formula/algorythm for fret placement?
    
    Edd

    If you want accurate placement, don't use a formula. Get a book
    along the lines of "Guitar Repair" (I have a couple at home but
    don't remember the titles) that contains tables. Once you've
    got a table, you can apply a multiplicative factor to account
    for the difference in bridge-to-nut length. If I remember, I'll
    try to type in the table (if noone beats me to it).

    I am a 12-string guitar lover also. I have a Yamaha 12-string FG-260.
    I got it about 10 years ago. I think it gives me a VERY nice sound.
    I have played more expensive 12-strings (like Guild, Alvarez), but I
    take my Yamaha any day.
    
    For strings I used xtra-light. I find them much better on the fingers.
    Some one told me xtra-light string do not give you volume, well that
    brings me in to my second 12-string guitar which is a Fender Coronado
    12 electric.
    

    
    	I've bought a couple of FG-260's for $50 ea. Look in the want
    advertiser for *reasonably* priced 12 strings, mostly will be Yamaha's.
    $700 for a guitar indeed!
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    I've only played a Yamaha 12-string once, but I thought it was pretty
    good for the money. I'm sure if you were willing to pay through
    the nose you could get something better, but I think the Yamaha
    would be fine for a starter. I'd also recommend the Want-Advertiser
    for used guitars.
    
    Ram
    

    I have a Madeira 12 string which I bought for $150 (about 8 years ago).
    Although I don't play it much anymore, I wouldn't give it up for the
    world.  (I wouldn't give up my bass, either, but for different
    reasons.) 
    
    The best sound I ever got out of it was with silk strings.  They seem
    to improve the action a little but you still have to tune it down a bit
    if you like to bend the strings. 
    
    I bought this guitar when I was in high school.  I used to hang around
    with a couple of freinds who also played guitar.  Since we would play
    just about anywhere and anytime, the guitar lived in my trunk for about
    three years.  Even after this less-than-optimum handling, the neck is
    still straight and the tone is great.
    
    tom_p

    I've had a Yamaha 12-string for about 12 years, and I like it
    quite a bit. I haven't played it in many, many moons, though.
    It needs some work on it (I get terrible buzz on the D and G
    strings, especially the D) which I just never got around to
    taking care of. I also haven't had enough time to devote to
    playing my 6-string (Guild), and I wanted to do more with the
    12 than just play it like a 6 with twice as many strings.
    
    Make me a good offer, and I might consider selling it.
    
    --- jerry

    I'll beat you to it Paul.
    
    According to Tom Wheeler's _The Guitar Book_, a luthier named Torres
    developed the fingerboard system for classical guitars in the 19th
    century. He based his system on a scale(string length) of 650mm
    or about 25 5/7". I believe that the scale length on a Les Paul
    is 24 3/4". Called the "Rule of Eighteen", the formula defines the
    distance between the nut and the first fret as 1/18 of the ENTIRE
    string length. THe distance between fret one and fret two is 1/18
    of the REMAINING string length and so on up the neck. The precise
    number used today is not (1/18), but (1/17.835).
    
    rick (yes, XYLAR::MARSHALL)
    

    A few years back I traded a banjo for a Guild 12 string that was
    in very good condition, paid $75.00 for it with the trade.  It was
    selling for $325.00. This was a used guitar (don't remember the
    model) but has played like a champ ever since.
    
    I've had a few friends that have had Yamaha 12 strings, they loved
    the feel, the sound but almost invariably ended up with a warped
    neck. Whether this was due to poor care on its owners part or the
    guitar, I don't know.  Yamaha HAS greatly improved their guitar
    over the last 10 years and I find them extremely good buys for the
    beginner (I just sold a Yamaha 6 string that I had).
    
    The point that I was making with the Guild was if you look in good
    pawn shops, or music stores you might be able to score a good used
    instrument for a fairly good price.  I was impressed that the Guild
    has *always* been tuned to pitch with no problems using medium/light
    strings.  I played Gibsons that were terrible and Martins at twice
    the price that couldn't compare with the 12 I bought. NOTE: This
    is not saying the Martins weren't good guitars though the action
    I felt needed setting, but comparitively for the value the Guild
    was a much better buy.
    
    Make sure you can get a guitar that your hand fits comfortably around
    as 12 strings tend to have wide necks which cramp the hand which
    will probably make you not want to play as much.
    
    They do make beautiful sounds and there's alot that can be done
    with them that you can't do with 6 strings.
    
    Good luck in your search...
    
    _stew-

    If you played a Martin fresh from the factory, it likely had high
    action; they tend to set them up that way under the assumption that
    it's easier to lower the action to the customer's taste than raise
    it. (My understanding, anyway.)
    
    Martin and Guild 12-strings are very different guitars. Martins
    generally have a more mellow, balanced sound, while Guilds are more
    crisp (sometimes to the point of metallic). Guilds are also quite a
    bit heavier (in weight, not sound). Which you prefer is wholly a
    matter of taste (I'm obviously a Martin fanatic), though I've played
    some really nice Guilds. I think Guilds hold their value somewhat
    less well, which means they can be better bargains on the used
    market. 
    
    Play several different guitars before making a decision, since they
    do sound different. If you fall in love with a guitar you can't
    afford, what the heck - this is America, get a second (third?)
    mortgage!
    
    I had a bad experience with a Yamaha six string in my youth, so I'm
    somewhat leery of Japanese guitars, but that was 18 years ago, and
    I'd find it very easy to believe that the quality has improved
    greatly (I drive a Nissan) since then.
    
    Alternative: look for an ancient Stella, tune it SIX frets down, and
    play 12-string blues like Huddie Ledbetter! Great sound.

RE: -1
    
    Paul, I agree with you 100%.  I've always tended to stay away from
    Martins like I do Nikon cameras, too much snobbery amoung the owners...
    "Ah would NEVAH own anything other then a MAHTIN!" though it sounds
    like you're pretty level headed. ;-)
    
    Yes do go out and play a few, and again I agree with Paul, if it's
    just out of your reach you're probably better off spending the extra
    by taking out that 3rd mortgage...Ken Stewart does it all the time!!!
    
    ;-) ;-)
    
    _stew-

    re:.7
    
    I (and some friends of mine who know guitars far better than I do)
    agree that while Martin makes a better guitar than Guild, the
    latter is good enough to make it a better buy (ie. quality/price).
    
    --- jerry

    From "Complete Guitar Repair", Oak Publications" (of course,
    the degree of accuracy listed here is a little excessive, given
    that the degree of curvature of the frets will introduce more
    uncertainty than the last couple of digits):

    For a 24.5" scale:
    	
    Fret	Fret		Remaining 
    		Interval	Scale

    1		1.37509		23.1249
    2		1.29791		21.827
    3		1.22507		20.6019
    4		1.15631		19.4456
    5		1.09141		18.3542
    6		1.03015		17.3241
    7		0.972333	16.3517
    8		0.91776		15.434
    9		0.86625		14.5677
    10		0.81763		13.7501
    11		0.77174		12.9783
    12		0.728425	12.2499
    13		0.687541	11.5624
    14		0.648952	10.9134
    15		0.612529	10.3009
    16		0.57815		9.72275
    17		0.545701	9.17705
    18		0.515073	8.66198
    19		0.486124	8.17581
    20		0.458877	7.71694

    Also - I have one book that says the figure is 17.835 and another
    that claims it's 17.817. 

>    If you played a Martin fresh from the factory, it likely had high
>    action; they tend to set them up that way under the assumption that
>    it's easier to lower the action to the customer's taste than raise
>    it. (My understanding, anyway.)

    I don't know what the reasons are for it, but you are write in that
    Martin deliberately sets their action very high.  This is what exactly
    what the Martin expert at Music Emporium in Boston said.
    
    I own a Martin (D-35) but I wish I had a Guild also.  They are both
    excellent guitars.
    
    	db

    Martin does set their actions high.  The first D-18 I owned I was
    a little frustrated with.  It was constantly breaking the G string.
    Then someone told me to file down the nut (where the string was
    breaking).  But the action itself was still high and I thought that
    was strange for a guitar that was supposed to be so superior.  I
    was so frustrated that I ultimately traded the Martin for a Gibson
    Hummingbird.  It didn't take long to discover that this was a bigger
    mistake.  Though the action was good the neck was a lot thinner
    and narrower (is there such a word?) than I was used to from the
    Martin.  The body had so much varnish that the sound couldn't get
    out.  So I got another D-18 and got rid of the Gibson.  Still the
    action was high.  I was living in LA at the time and spent a lot
    of time at McCabes guitar emporium in Santa Monica.  They did work
    for Doc Watson, Clarance White, Roland White, and others so I had
    them do my guitar.  I was shocked when they took a sureform (sp?)
    to the bridge and started making sawdust out of it.  But since the
    guy looked like he knew what he was doing I calmed down.  When he
    was finished I was impressed that the work looked like it did before
    he had started and the action was much improved.  Most people that
    have played my Martin have the same comment now, "It has the best
    action of any Martin I've played."  Thanks to the guys at McCabes.
    
    =ken

    Action is not a permanent characteristic of a guitar. If you buy one
    with action which is higher than you like, wait a couple of months
    of playing (to be sure of what you want and in case the guitar
    "takes a set"), then take it back for adjustment. In most cases,
    taking the action down is merely a case of removing the nut (or
    saddle, depending where the adjustment is needed) and filing it
    thinner FROM THE BACK SIDE - never file the slots deeper! In some
    cases it may be necessary to sand down the bridge itself. I've had
    the action adjusted on most guitars I've owned (I like it low). 

    I was pleased to see this note on 12-strings.  I bought a Hoefner
    in Germany for $400.  I don't know what they go for in the states,
    though.  I got it around 1980 and its been just great.  It comes
    with a wrench to adjust the neck if you ever need to and 3 different
    size bridges to raise or lower the strings.  The neck is wide enough
    to give me room for my fingers.  Although the metal strings cause
    blisters, if I'd stay with it long enough, I'd get used to it, like
    any guitar.  I've never tried another 12-string, but this one sounds
    great.
    
    I play (intermittently) mostly John Denver stuff.  "Lady" sounds
    really nice on a 12.  I've been trying to learn "Dueling Banjoes"
    by playing one part on the skinny strings and the other on the fat
    ones.  I usually wind up missing our old rock band from '69.  Oh
    well, time marches on.
    
    Spence

    re:.14
    
    If you're into John Denver stuff, try "The Eagle and the Hawk"
    on a 12-string. *Really* nice.
    
    Argh! on your method of playing "Dueling Banjos" on a 12. I used
    to play with it on a six, picking the lower part over the hole
    and the upper part right by the bridge to get two different
    sounds. That was bad enough!
    
    --- jerry

    I HAVE A HAPPY AND ECONOMICAL SOLUTION FOR YA TAKAMINIE?HAS A WONDERFUL
    12 STRING GUITAR WITH A NICE SOUNDING BUILT IN PICKUP I HAVE ONE
    WITHOUT THE PICKUP BUT IAM DEFINETLY SWITCHING OVER!THERE $AROUND
    300.00 THE VERSATILITY IS NICE .
                             SCOTT M/GOOD LUCK

    Hello Dave-
    
    If you have already acquired a guitar, disregard this message.
    Steve at Wurlitzer's could advise you well. (437-1822) or (754-5271)
    Good Luck!
    
    Linn

    Back to first principals...(or is it principles?).....basics!!!!
    The ratio of the frequencies of the notes 'E' to 'F', 'F' to 'F#',
    'F#' to 'G', and so on, works out to be 169/180. Hence the length
    of scale from each fret to the bridge, is 169/180 of the previous
    fret distance. So starting with the nut to bridge length of say
    26 inches, the first ('F') fret is 169/180 x 26 inches from the
    bridge. The next ('F#') fret is 169/180(169/180 x 26) inches, and
    so on, until the frets are thicker than the spaces!!!
    	All that is needed then, is a laser system to accurately mark
    the fingerboard, and a computer driven spark erosion system to cut
    the slots. The only problem there is that wood is not very conductive,
    and does not readily lend itself to spark erosion!!
    	Hope this helps!!
    
    			Dave Clark...(one of many!)

well, i'm probably the worst mistreater of guitars ever to evolve on the
face of the earth.  about 5 years ago i bought a used Sigma 12 with a
teency-weency barcus-berry pick up built into the bridge, with the plug
built into the rear strap peg - no volume controls, and it usually has to
be pre-amped for the pick up to pick up anything.  paid $150.

never got a case, used to take it around to rehearsals and gigs in a
trash bag.  at one point it fell out of my car onto the cement.  it's
been battered and chipped and mistreated worse than a dirty dog!

it plays like a dream, gorgeous low action, the necks straight and true
sounds beautiful, has a narrow long neck, an adjustable bridge, oversized body,
it's ugly but indestructable!  i always keep it strung with martin light or
extra lights. 

the only problem i've got with it is the bridge, which is pulling up and
warping the body where it's connected.  hasn't hurt the performance at all
though.

i love it like an old pair of worn in/out dungarees!

-max

    RE: 7.13
    
    I beg to differ on the matter of filing the slots in the nut to
    lower the action. I have worked on many guitars (repairs/renovations,
    quite a few from people here at work), and I always file the slots
    in the nut. Whether it's a simple action adjustment on an existing
    nut, or replacing it with bone or ivory, the slot filing saves a
    lot of work and potential damage to the nut "seat" area. (Some nuts
    are installed with other than two drops of glue, which can lead
    to chunks of wood coming off with the nut). As long as the focal
    point of the nut (the side up against the fretboard) is not altered,
    excellent results can be obtained. I always file from the focal
    face down towards the machine heads. (Following the same angle/slant
    as the head in relation to the neck). I use a rat-tail modellers
    file (some call them jewellers files?).
    
    (Isn't it amazing why most guitar manufacturers install *PLASTIC*
    nuts and bridges! UUGGHH! Bone or ivory is the preferred material for
    string resonance and maximum transmission of string vibration to
    the soundboard).     dep.
    

    Granted, it can be done if you know what you're doing (and you're
    right that caution must be used if a nut is being removed from the
    neck for work), but for the novice, it's awfully easy to screw it
    up, hence my warning. I've seen guitars on which the slots in the
    nut were widened too much, resulting in buzzing. Because you're
    trying to lower the action, there's no getting around deepening the
    slot even at the fretside focal point; without just the right tools
    it's very easy to make the slot too wide (not to mention getting it
    deeper in front than in the middle). More people are likely to have
    the simple fine file for working on the back.
    
    So - all generalizations are false, and "be careful out there". 

    
    Frets-Jimmy D'Aquisto does it by ear.

    
                     -< They don't em like they used to >-
    
    
    I've a problem!
               Im thinking about fitting a trembler arm system to a
    1968 strat(Fender that is) not jap but yank pre CBS, O what a problem!
    the problem is,  
    
    1: whats the best system yo use.
    2: how do you align it.
    3: this thing was made without one so does that mean chiseling out
    a dirty great whole ?
    
         Sorry for sounding ignorant on this subject, but i don't know
    much about the mechanics of a guitar i just play it
    
    yours inquizitivley  CARRADOG
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    The easiest tremelo system to instyall is probablythe washburn
    wonderbar..you just bolt it on no routing....I dunno how good they
    are.
    
    I installed a kahler in a lead 1 in about an hour...some routing
    required...kahler gives you a routing template that you tape to
    the guitar and you just go for it. Kahler is a good locking tremelo
    system. One disadvantage, you have to shim the base of the neck
    up about a 16th of an inch...the neck is now not making good contact
    with the body and is more prone to movement and the tuning etc.
    problems that come with that, I entered the best method I've found
    of fixing that problem somewhere in this file. Even four bolt necks
    (like my lead 1) will be more prone to movement after installing
    a kahler.
    
    Floyd Rose are also good bars. they require additional routing even
    if your guitar was routd for a stock fender tremelo. I have nt ever
    used one for very long, and have never really looked at the
    installation.
    
    Most of these can be installed for about $20 or so by good dealers
    everywhere if you buy the bar from them. Pricwe depends on the amount
    of routing they have to do.
    
    The Floyd rose is probably the bar that looks the most like the
    original fender tremelo, if that matters to you. Personally on a
    guitar of that vintage I would skip it and get another guitar to
    use with tremelo.
             
    
    dave

    
    
    keep it stock
    
                                                                               
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    notes
    
    77sratch
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    exit
    
    

    I have a Yahmah ( yahma-who) FG-460, just got it in april.
    I have not had much time to play with it due to the traveling 
    that I've been doing. Well I got to play with it alot ....
    for the first time, and I noticed the intonation is severly
    off at the 12 the fret on the low strings only. The problem
    is most severe on the low E and A strings. Other than the action 
    there is no way to adjust the intonation. Now the action is high,
    but it's still new, and I havn't had time to lower it. The lowering 
    of the action will change the intonation slightly but not enough to
    correct the problem.  Can anyobne help?
                                   Rob
                                   REFINE::BLUMENSTOCK
    

re: -.1

You can make small adjustments to the intonation by making a new bridge saddle 
that moves the point where the string breaks over the top.  It's even feasible 
to rout out the channel where the saddle sits to accomodate a thicker saddle.  
This gives you more lattitude to move the break point.  Of course on a 
12-string, the intonation is never right unless you have a saddle that 
compensates for individual strings.

Bob

P.S.  I'm assuming that the truss rod is properly adjusted. (?)

And is the neck straight and properly pitched?

Bob

    I adjusted the truss rod myself, and it's perfect. I can't see
    how changing the pitch would effect the only two or three of the
    strings.
                                            Rob

>                                                       I can't see
>    how changing the pitch would effect the only two or three of the
>    strings.


Well, it shouldn't.  I just meant that you shouldn't consider the suggestion
in .22 without first verifying the integrity of the neck.

Bob

    In my experience lowering the bridge can help a lot, it fixed both
    my Fender 6 & myepiphone 12....you go nothing to lose (except a
    couple of bucks for a new bridge sadle) and you may get intune 
    everywhere

>    In my experience lowering the bridge can help a lot, it fixed both
>    my Fender 6 & myepiphone 12....you go nothing to lose (except a
>    couple of bucks for a new bridge sadle) and you may get intune 
>    everywhere

Well...you might lose a little more than that.  Lowering the bridge action too 
much can result in a significant loss of volume and clarity.  But my 
experience has been that most people don't notice this, probably for two 
reasons.

- They don't get to compare "before" and "after" side-by-side, and

- They're too much absorbed in how good the lower action feels to notice
  a small change in the sound.


Bob

I guess I should say, "...a *small*, but significant loss of volume ...".

Bob

    Jon,
    I'd say keep it stock!!!!!!!But if your bound and determined to put one
    on, there are many that are pretty good. I just has a Gotoh tremelo
    system put on mine. I had it done because if anything was wrong with it
    then that person owned the problem, not me and he'd be responsible to 
    make it right. However, I wasn't having one put on a vintage piece of
    equipment....
    

    re: .-1
    
    Given that Jon wrote that note back in 1987, I rather imagine his
    decision's already been made.  :-)
    
    Greg