Conference hydra::amiga_v1

Hi Ed, 

I converted the NES Advantage controller to work on Amy.  You have to bypass
the chip inside and correctly connect to the up/down left/right switches.  The
NES controllers are serial.  Basically, I opened up the controller and connected
an Amiga style connector and cable directly to the switches.  I made some
notes about what connections I made but they are at home, so I enter them for
you later. It's a bit of a hack but it works.

My kids perfer the NES Advantage joystick as it's large, sits on the table and
generally doesn't move.  The small standard NES controllers should convert just
as easily.  

My NES Advantage now has 3 cables, Nintendo player 1, Nintendo player 2 and 
Amiga.  I never had any problem using it yet.

...Ed

    This may help...
    
    Here's how to hook the NES Advantage joystick to the Amiga:
    
    
    ***** WARNING ***** Attempt at your own risk.
    
    1. You'll need a 9 pin Amiga style joystick connector.  I had an old
      joystick I robbed the cable from.
    
    2. Remove the bottom from the Advantage.  There are 6 screws, 2 showing
       and 4 hiding under the rubber feet.  Just pry the rubber feet off. 
       They re-stick fine.
    
    3. Inside you will see a circuit board and joystick box.  To be sure of
       your connections you need to remove the circuit board.  Remove the
       screws and pop off the turbo knobs from the front.  You can the  
       remove the hex nuts holding the turbo pots to the case.  With this
       removed the circuit board will lift out.  Watch the A/B buttons as
       they are not attached but just held in by the circuit board.
    
    4. Looking at the component side of the circuit board you will see 2 
       IC's labeled IC1 and IC2.  The "A FIRE" button connection will be
       on IC2 pin 1.
    
    5. You will also see 5 wires running between the circuit board and the 
       joystick box.  These will be your UP/DOWN, LEFT/RIGHT and GROUND 
       connections.
    
    6. Wire the following pins of the Amiga connector to circuit board at	
       the following points:
    
       AMIGA PIN	NES Advantage Circuit Board
       ---------	--------------------------------------------------
    	   1		UP	- Yellow wire from Joystick box
    	   2		DOWN	- Orange wire from Joystick box
    	   3		LEFT	- Red wire from Joystick box
    	   4		RIGHT	- Brown wire from Joystick box
    	   6		FIRE	- IC2 pin 1
    	   8		GROUND	- Black wire from Joystick box
    
    7. Notch out the back of the case to accept the new cable.
    
    8. Re-assemble...  Joystick works as expected and the "A" button serves
       as the fire button.
    
    Using a meter it shouldn't be difficult to do the same to the small NES
    controllers.
    
    Cheers,
    
    ...Ed
    

    	Thanks Ed....
    
    	    I ended up finnishing mine yesterday,(I'm just to impatient):')
       On the smaller controler the  traces are easy to follow, although I 
       did end up removing the chip and using these holes as solder points for
       the amiga cable.
            It works great. My son loves using it since it just the right size,
       and I've found that on some games, (S.O.T.B. and Batman the Game) that
       I've more control over the character.
    	    Now I've got to find some use for the rest of the buttons..
    	    Maybe install a turbo-fire ....
       Anybody know how I'd do that?
    
    								ED
    
    		
    

    	   As long as this note deals with modifying Joysticks.....
     I have another question;
           Will an Analog Joystick work in place of a mouse?
    	   If so, could I rewire an IBM analog joystick to work as a mouse for
    	   games like Starglider II, or Falcon ... etc?
    	   This may seem like a lame question, but I'm not shure if the analog
    	   joystick is handled off the mouse port or joystick port.
    
    							Thanks
    						               Ed
    								
    
    	

    I believe this has been discussed before, and the answer is ... maybe.
    Can't recall if anyone got one working, but you'd have to use the mouse
    port x/y inputs (or use an A/D between the analog stick and the joystick
    inputs ;^). The Gravis Mousestick is another option, but the price is
    kinda steep.

    Pete

     I've extracted all the notes on dir/title=joystick, but they weren't to
    clear on wether I'd need a special driver for it or just use the mouse 
    options...
     The Gravis Mousestick is an alternative, but .. I still like using a 
    regular style mouse, and can't seem to justify the $$ wanted for this.
     However, I did see an IBM style flight stick, (looked and felt real nice)
    although I can't remember it's name, it cost about $40.00 .
    							Ed.
    
    

    Some info:
    
    IBM style analog joysticks can be used on the Amiga, but modifications
    are required (i.e. more than just adapting a connector).  They must be
    used in the mouse port.  If the game/software supports the mouse, no
    software drivers are necessary.
    
    Within the past year there was an article about adapting an analog
    joystick to the Amiga.  I believe it was in Amazing.  The article was
    pretty in-depth.
    
    About six-months ago someone in the Amicon users group here in Columbus
    was selling adapters.  They had an Amiga mouse plug at one end and an
    IBM style jack at the other.   It seemed like anyone that flew Genie's Air
    Warrior bought one.  I think he was selling them for $10 or $15.
    
    I personally use the Gravis Mousestick.  I paid $70 or $75 for it.
    Gravis had a special deal for Falcon owners.  I really can't see using
    it instead of the mouse for Workbench.  But I sure like it for flying
    Falcon.  I also like the programmable rapid fire feature, for any
    arcade shoot 'em ups.
    
    It can be set up to work like a digital joystick plugged into the
    joystick port, or it can be used as an analog joystick in the mouse
    port.  It is amazingly programmable.
           

RE:.7
   
>    IBM style analog joysticks can be used on the Amiga, but modifications
>    are required (i.e. more than just adapting a connector).  

Main difference is the value of the potentiometers used on IBM/Apple
analog joysticks is in the 125k-250k range. The Amiga expects 470k
for full range motion. The result of using an IBM style analog joysticks
is a noticable loss of resolution or inability to reach the extremes.

>    They must be used in the mouse port.  

Both the 9 pin ports have inputs for mouse (quadrature), digital joysticks,
and Analog (potgo), and light pen inputs. Any of these four devices should
work in either of the two 9 pin ports, given application software support.

>    If the game/software supports the mouse, no software drivers are necessary.

This is not true. The program must specifically use the potgo resource,
which measures the position of an analogue input over time. It turns out 
this time period is the vertical scan time (minus some lines, so it comes
to about 200 lines). The resolution is the number of lines that are scanned
before the potgo capacitors are discharged. 

So, software that uses the mouse will not use analog joysticks in their 
place, unless there is specific support for analog joysticks. Once again,
there are no analog joystick drivers supplied by commodore. It is a 
resource (a mechanism to arbitrate software access to the hardware) and
software must "bang" the hardware to make it work.
    
>    Within the past year there was an article about adapting an analog
>    joystick to the Amiga...

You are correct, it was in Amazing computing - I think the same issue that 
reviewed Ultracard. The article included example software (in assember and
C, I think) to set up and read the analog joystick inputs. The article was
mainly a hardware project that used an active analog IC (op amp?) to make
a IBM analog joystick appear (to the amiga) to be a 470K ohm joystick. It
was suggested that the innovative could fit the described circuitry into
the 15 pin (IBM analog joystick default) connector hood.
    
>    About six-months ago someone in the Amicon users group here in Columbus
>    was selling adapters...  I think he was selling them for $10 or $15.

That sound like a good price, especially if it was for more than just a 
connector adapter.
    
>    I personally use the Gravis Mousestick.  I paid $70 or $75 for it.
>    Gravis had a special deal for Falcon owners...  But I sure like it 
>    for flying Falcon. 

I have one of these too. A very versatile product, but not an analog
joystick (without the Apple upgrade...). It can function as a mouse
(e.g. mousestick), or digital joystick. There are MANY customization 
options and the mousestick is a well made product IMHO.

An interesting note came with the Gravis Mousestick when I received it
(about 3 and a half months after ordering it) through the Falcon special
offer: It said the current versions of Falcon had a bug in the mouse 
based flight controls (the basis for the offer was to use the Gravis with
the mouse controls for analog joystick feeling control) and the bug
would be fixed ASAP in a future release. This was in January. I was not
amused.

>    It can be set up to work like a digital joystick plugged into the
>    joystick port, or it can be used as an analog joystick in the mouse
>    port.  It is amazingly programmable.
  
Er, it can function as a digital joystick OR a mouse. Not as an analog
joystick (without the Apple upgrade, which apparently does not function 
on an amiga).

	-SES

    Sorry for the confusion.  I thought the Gravis mousestick was an analog
    joystick, and my statements were based on that.  I do not really
    understand the hardware side of this, but it works the way I would
    expect an analog joystick to behave.
    
    I have seen users running Air Warrior using the mouse or an adapted
    analog joystick.  I just assumed that the software did not need to be
    adjusted for the different controls.  Next meeting I will ask them how
    different controls are handled.
    
    I also got the notice about the Falcon bug.  Setting the Gravis to
    vectoring mode, does allow it to work very well with the Falcon mouse
    control mode.

    Re: .3
    
    You mentionned "turbo fire" for joystick, If you mean the option
    that auto-fire while keeping the fire button pressed, I made a
    little circuit that do just that.  It require 2 chips (SN7404 and
    a 555).   There is a pot controled fireing speed and when at minimum
    fire a switch that make it appear as if there were no "turbo fire".
    If you or someone is interrested I can post the circuit, but it is
    very simple to make.  The most complicated part is to find the 
    hardware (DB09 connectors (male/female), box attaching hardware etc.)
    I believe that the time and money required to make such a circuit
    does not worth the buy of a new joystick with the circuit already
    in it.
    
    Vince.

    Shure I'm interested...
    
    	Upload that sucker!
    							Thanks
    								Ed

    Re: .11
    
    Ok, I uploaded the auto-fire joystick circuit.
        I quickly made it with Dpaint3.(Min res, 2 colors)
    I placed it on Tape::user2:[upload]joystick.zoo and joystick.readme
    
    Let me know if you have problem with it.
    
    Enjoy,  Vince.

    This might be a dumb question, but why does the directional wires have
    to be hooked into the chip?.
    						Ed
    

    Re :.-1
    Ed, I am not sure what you are talking about, but if you refer to the
    auto-fire joystick, the directional wires don't run thru the chip.
    They run thru the "box" or whatever you put the chips in.  You cannot
    just add the chips in your actual joystick as 99% of them don't have
    a wire for the +5Volt DC. (pin 7 if I remember correctly)
    
    You'll have to buy a DB09 cable with all 9 wire used.
    (A couple $$ at any surplus dealer).
    
    If you are lucky enough to have a wire on pin 7, then I guess
    you may try to put the chips inside your joystick.  It wasn't
    my case. (Epyx hand held type).
    
    Sorry if I made myself not clear before.
    
    Vince.

    Ah!
    Now I understand, I didn't realize the schematic was for a stand alone 
    circuit.. On a second look at the schematic I realize now only wire 6
    and 8 are wired into the circiut from the joystick...
     I was in a hurry Friday, sorry.
    							Ed