Conference hydra::amiga_v1

     Let me see if I've got this straight...
    
     I cant say "Company X are a pack of useless so and so's"
    
    but I can say 
    
    "I ordered part X from Company X on XX/XXX/XXXX date
    The individual I spoke to at Company X said the part would be 
    delivered in 2 days time. I waited 6 weeks and got part Y which 
    was not what I ordered. This was my personal experience."
    
    This seems awfully open to interpretation. Who will define
    what is personal opinion and what is not?
    
    Pardon me if I'm missing something, but I was not under the impression
    that (m)any comments made about other vendors etc within this
    conference and within others I participate in were anything other
    than personal experience...are disclaimers really necessary?
    (eg: "The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those
    of my department/manager/branch/reigon/organization" etc)
    
    Perhaps the Mods should clarify this slightly for the confused...
    
    Chow
    
    Phil

    Yes I'd like to know as well. I appreciate why I can't say that
    the directors of a particular Amiga games S/W house should all be
    wearing masks, carrying duelling pistols and riding a horse called
    "Black Bess" (note for non-British participants - this alludes to
    a famous highwayman etc.), but can I not give OPINIONS about the
    quality of service offered by such people???
    
    -Rog
    

    By now we should all realize that life's not always fair. While
    I don't agree with the policy I admit that it's their ballpark,and
    so they get to make the rules.I suppose that we'll have to be more
    creative in expressing our opinions.IE: instead of this game sucks,
    "The graphics are on a scale of...." type of statement may be
    acceptable. Time will tell where the line is drawn,but we have
    the ability to influence this to a degree.By this I mean if you
    see a smoldering ember don't throw gas on it.I'll state what I feel
    is approprate,and let the moderator decide if it is within the guide
    lines.I feel bad that he has to except this burden,so i will respect
    his decision without fail,and make an attempt to make his intersesion
    unneccessary.
    								bill 

    
    While I can somehow sympathize with the company (DEC, that is) to
    install this rules, I see it as one step further into legalmania
    instead out of it. Poor, poor United Staates of America...
    
    Or as Bryce Nesbitt from CBM like's to say:
    
    "Lawyers, Americas untapped export market..."
    
    Disappointed,
    
    <CB>                    

    
    <CB>, you don't know what you're missing if you haven't had Political
    Correctness lessons.
    
    I am very sad for both DEC and American Society as a whole.  The latest
    casualty in the freedom of speech war was Andy Rooney.
    
    Ed - who will continue to offend as needed until either shot or fired

Rathole alert!

>The latest
>    casualty in the freedom of speech war was Andy Rooney.

Be careful about your assumtions in the media world. The ratings
game has a _major_ influence on all "injustices" and all celebrity behavior
in general.  We don't know what percentage of the episode was orchestrated 
for effect. 60 Minutes' ratings were up the week Rooney came back. 

Some celebrities now check into (or tell their agents to say they checked into) 
private drug/alchol  rehabilitation centers as a way of revitalizing a flagging 
career. This is like putting a "new and improved" label on a career. 
The Rooney thing seems mild in comparison to a ruse like that...


I agree that there are too many lawyers intruding into our lives sometimes.
They seem to gravitate to areas of power, and notes conferences provide
nearly-free power to many people.

Dave

    
    Do I detect a certain amount of negative comments concerning the
    legal profession ?? :-)
    
    How about "Only a lawyer would like this game" or other similar
    forms of positive game reviews.
    
    -Dave

    Does this mean no more reviews of products and/or vendors?

    The US is realy setting the pace for what can and can't be said or
    printed on paper or electronicly, and at the same time they are looking
    down at the eastearn block nations for censoring their media (altough
    this is changing now).  The sad fact is that we are not any better here
    in Canada, and I guess in the rest of the world too.
    
    We will just have to do like Bambi, and not say anything instead of
    saying something bad about someone, hardware, software...
    
    
    Jean
    

Does this mean magazines will no longer be able print
reviews that are negative in nature ?

Where will it end ?

The free press of the free world....

    
    I agree that note .0 needs a lot more clarification.  Considering the
    number of notefiles we all have got going, a "number" of complaints
    over "several months" sounds pretty reasonable if we're talking about
    ten a year, say.  Let's have some specifics!
    
    The personal liability aspect of note .0 was a little scary.  I
    recently read a story about a woman and her husband who were barely
    making it as factory workers, so she started collecting coupons as
    a way of stretching the budget.  She really got into it and collected
    thousands of coupons and proofs of purchase be rummaging through the
    trash in dumpsters and elsewhere.  By bartering and selling to other
    collectors, she made enough money to buy furniture and toys for the
    kids and to have her nose and breasts done.  Then she inadvertantly
    bought a batch of counterfeit coupons from a mail-order dealer, and the
    authorities charged HER with mail fraud.  Not being rich, she had to
    sell the furniture, the toys, her house, and her car to pay for her
    defense.  (I assume she got to keep the boobs.)  In other words, she
    began poor, began to make some money, had a run in with the American
    legal system, and ended up worse off than when she started.
    
    If a lawyer with a wild hair decides to go after you because of a 
    comment in a notes file you could end up paying a lot of money
    regardless of the content of your comment.  The author of the memo in
    .0 should provide specifics so that we can get some idea of the risk
    we're taking by noting.
    
    Legal insurance is looking better and better.

    Fascinating stuff this, to those of us who don't live in America.
    Who is Andy Rooney? What are coupons? Can we in England get hit
    by American law? I'm sorry, honestly I am, I think Ocean are the
    best Software company in the world. In fact, the best company of
    ANY kind in the world.
    
    -Ted.
    
    (Roger doesn't live here any more, no, I don't know where he moved
    to, Bolivia maybe, or perhaps the pub).
    

    I don't think DEC cares what you say on YOUR time,IN YOUR HOME,but
    have the right to be concerned about being held lible for what you
    say here in the notes files.At work I am considered one of the
    outspoken workers in my area. I often butt heads with my management
    over issues HERE I am unhappy with. I have never been chastized
    for disagreeing with management,and I feel I have the right to free
    speech. The media is geared toward dealing with the expression of
    opinions,and as a result is prepared to defend itself(the money
    spent on defense can be considered a major business expense),at
    DEC we build computers,and any unnecessary expense,or business loss
    is a finiancial burden. I think some are overeacting. looking back
    at this file you will find negative reviews that state true facts
    in a precise mannner,and you will find many that have a large amount
    of name calling etc.As soon as you add your personnal mudslinging
    to a review it cannot be considered a review anymore. IT seems some
    are confused between writing a review,and venting their exasperation
    with a given product. I think we owe it to DEC to put some thought
    into what we say(not to be read don't say it),ans consider how it
    could impact the business.AS I said before life is not fair,It is
    entirely possible that someone could use the notes files against
    DEC, in an unfair manner.Right or Wrong it would have a negative
    impact on the company.IN a world where many people consider sueing
    others is a way of life, one has to be carefull.
    	Now how do we go about offsetting the issue of reviews.
    	1) If a person ask's about a particular product:
    		a)one could give a pointer to a magazine review. 
    		b)one could contact the person off line(phone,mail etc)
    		c)one could give a pointer to a demo thats on the net,
    		  or upload one if available.
   all of the above would serve to aid the person that requested the
    info,and this is the point.IF HELPING THE PERSON IS THE MAIN CONCERN.
    	2)IF you are unhappy with a product:
    	  a)you could write a letter to a magazine,and then mention
	    the fact here,putting us on the alert for the reply
    	  b)You could simply state you are not happy,and handle ofline
    		replys.
    	3) We could have a usergroup that aired issues at their meetings.
    I have long valued this notes file as a resource to help solve
    technical problems I have encountered with the AMIGA.This is the
    major benefit in my eys,followed by product release,and update 
    announcements .AS for reviews I have agreed with some,and disagreed
    with some.But I am old enough to make a decision on how to spend my 
    allowence,and am willing to live with the ocassional error in
    judgement. Now if some feel that their right to say ANYTHING they
    WANT exceeds the PRIVILEDGE DEC extends to us through the notes
    files then keep a copy of this note,because you will be using my
    above means of communication for ALL your information exchanges.
    
    							BILL 
    help

>    files then keep a copy of this note,because you will be using my
>   above means of communication for ALL your information exchanges.
    
    							BILL 
 
Sorry about that the above should have read
    "because we COULD be using my above means of communication for ALL
    OUR information exchanges".
    							bill
    
    

    Maybe a negative notes file review should be like the following:
    
    My review on [name of product]
    
    "NO COMMENT"
    
    Now - sue me for that ;-) ;-)

    
    Re: Andy Rooney
    
    Andy Rooney is a CBS commentator who appears weekly on '60 Minutes'. 
    He recently made some remarks that got him suspended for 30 days.
    
    The remarks he made pertained to blacks and gays.
    
    For a full discussion, see PEAR::SOAPBOX, note something-or-other.
    
    

    This whole issue was discussed in HUMAN::DIGITAL within the last few
    months.  (Sorry, I remember it but couldn't find a descriptive note
    title to pass on.)  The story, as I recall, went this way...  A
    tradesman did some work for a Digital employee.  Mr. Digit didn't like
    the result and entered a note in a notesfile saying that Tradesman's
    work was lousy.  This should have been the end of the story, except
    that somebody showed the note to Tradesman, and Tradesman knew and
    complained to KO.  Thus the memo in .0 with its "several" complaints.
    
    In my opinion, there is plenty of guidance at the end of the memo.  Ron
    Glover asks notesfile moderators to remove "derogatory" references to
    persons and companies.  Well, the dictionary definition of "derogatory"
    is a lot different from the definition of "critical."
    
    Seems to me that saying "XYZ really sucks" goes over the line, but
    saying 
    
    	"Megabackup doesn't compress files like its ads claim, and I
    	crashed it repeatedly on two different machines,"  - or -
    
    	"My new HumongoRAM card started smoking last night, not surprising
    	from a look at the quality of construction,"  - or -
    
    	"Thingglider has neat 3-d effects but has jerkier motion than
    	QQQglider and most similar games I've played, and no plot to speak
    	of, either"
    
    are well within bounds.  Now, most comments on products (and services)
    in this notesfile are quite factual and unheated, or compare two
    similar things on specific points.  So what's the problem?
    
    Wes

    Speaking of 60 Minutes, they had a pertinant episode a few weeks
    ago. It seems the latest trend in dealing with certain types of
    business oposition - say, neighbors who object to the development
    of "protected" wetlands - is the lawsuit. Yessir, someone goes around
    the town saying you should be denied building permits because the
    land you want to build on is legally protected from development,
    you just sue until they shut up or it's too late to stop you. Costs
    no where near as much as taking a loss on the property and can still
    be deducted as a business expense. AND, it makes other righteous
    citizens a mite less likely to open their mouths next time you step
    beyond the bounds of the law. 

    The whole issue would be non-existant if Digital employees accessing
    the notefiles treated the conferences as they were intended - FOR
    DIGITAL INTERNAL USE ONLY. It is VERY unfortunate to see non-Digital
    employees gaining access to the conferences (something to keep junior
    busy at night), users forwarding mail outside the company via usenet,
    or telling acquaintences not to do business with so-and-so because
    someone on DEC's network had a bad experience. There are less
    conspicuous ways of making non-recommendations!

    Ya cant argue with that!
    
    

    Hear hear.