Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    
    When I first saw Design-3D, I became very excited.  The screen shots on
    the back of the box showed a familiar 4-view layout; Top, Front, Right,
    and Isometric.  I became interested because this is exactly how we do
    mechanical design using UniGraphics here at DEC.
    
    We usually design objects using 3-d lines, arcs, surfaces, etc. 
    UniGraphics cannot do rendering (shading) and therefore restricts you
    to viewing a wireframe.  A typical Ed Acciardi design may have several
    thousand entities (lines, arcs, etc).  UniGraphics has a wealth of
    construction techniques that make creation of the model relatively
    easy.  You can enter lines perpendicular or parallel at a distance to
    other lines.  Every construction feature is accessable from heirarchal
    menus; no commands need be typed.
    
    What's dissapointing with Amiga 3D modeling software is the total lack
    of thought given to entity construction.  You generally have to enter
    geometry point by point, entering the XYZ coordinates of each point
    into a requestor box.  Can you imagine having to enter 6,000
    coordinates accurately to construct a complex model?
    
    If the people who are writing the modeling software would stop and look
    at how a real engineering 3D package works, the Amiga would be an ideal
    mechanical engineer's tool.  It's frustrating, because they're so
    close.  For under a hundred bucks, the Amiga has rendering and
    ray-tracing capabilities that cost many times more on a PC or Mac. 
    With the current software available (I own Sculpt-3D and Design-3D),
    it's next to impossible to create any kind of accurate work.
    
    Ed. (Still waiting patiently for the Amiga to realize it's potential,
    but paying more attention to the Macintosh IIci lately)
    

    Ed, you can't be considering a...  Mac purchase.  Can you? :^)
    
    Sorry,
    Steve - anxiously waiting for Turbo Silver.

    Don't worry about Ed, he's just suffering from all those late
    nights/early mornings, so he's not thinking to straight at the moment !
    
    Isn't that right Ed ?
    
    Mike

    Re: .2
    
    From what I know and have seen of XDraw, a 3D version of it would
    probably make Ed a VERY happy person, right?
    
    <CB>
    

    
    Relax, I'm not jumping ship, and for several good reasons...
    
    1.  It would be physically impossible to produce the type of funds
    needed to purchase a Mac IIci (which is the only Mac that impresses
    me.)  Even with a DEC discount, I'd need in the neighborhood of $6K.
    
    2.  The Mac, as wonderfully easy and slick as it is to use, still seems
    a bit one-handed due to it's crippled approach to multitasking.
    
    3.  There aren't any Amiga-quality games available.
    
    4.  The software is generally several X more expensive than
    functionally equivalent Amiga software.
    
    The Amiga has done well in MANY areas, and can now hold it's own in DP,
    and more than hold it's own in entertainment, video, and graphics
    applications, and especially entertainment, where it has no rival.
    
    I'm just peeved that my own pet application hasn't been fully
    exploited.  And in cases where there there HAS been an effort, it's
    been a half-hearted one, ie, Design-3D.
    
    Take X-Cad (to use <CB>'s example)... I paid Big Bucks for X-Cad, and
    it is indeed a very capable and powerful 2D drafting system.  However,
    it also rather cumbersome to use (it completely tosses the Amiga
    interface out the window) and the manual is written in Pig-Latin.
    
    So, I grin and put aside X-Cad, hoping that it will be upgraded to
    something more usable in the future.  Along comes a new and improved
    version, using Amiga menus etc... and I find out that the program has
    changed ownership a few times and there's no way that I can upgrade. 
    Ba-bing! $350 out the window.  I still haven't given up trying to get
    some sort of upgrade option, but I've been getting the old circular
    telephone runaround from the new publisher.  Now, I know that when I
    paid my money for X-Cad, I had no promises, implied or otherwise, that
    upgrades would be provided.  Yet this sort of thing IS NOT what the
    Amiga needs to gain credibility.
    
    So, when I see Mac IIci-s running Claris Draft and MiniCad Plus, and
    updating the display faster than the Amiga can, and being flawlessly
    easy to use and incredibly powerful, it's easy to lust after one.  It's
    not easy to afford one.
    
    Well, enough griping for now.  Here's to 1.4 and a world-beating Amiga!
    
    Ed.
    
    
    

    Remember that scuplt 3d allows script files with exact measurements
    in them.  I have used this by writing a program that generated
    a script file telling scuplt3d how to make a mathematical 3d
    plot.
    Tom

    
    Tom:
    
    Sculpt-3DXL has a requestor box that allows you to input exact point
    coordinates.  This may seem like a nice way to construct geometry, but
    as one who has had 8 years of using commercial, heavy duty CAD
    programs, I can tell you that it's not very productive.
    
    If we at DEC were forced to work this way, it would take many months to
    complete what takes only a few days using a proper construction system.
    I have one file of a voice-coil motor that has over 10,000 entities in
    it.  That would be 60,000 numbers that would have to be entered in
    without a single error.
    
    There are much better construction techniques.  They have yet to be
    implemented in Amiga design software.
    
    Ed.

    Ed,
    
    	I have endured the same disappointment with my Amiga and CAD
    software.  I have also paid in excess fo $300.  for junk that has
    atrophied.  But, I believe we, as software (license) purchasers, may
    reasonably expect that the product works as advertised.  As a matter of
    fact, there is support in the law for implied warranties, and I believe
    they cover the utility of the product.  So when you say: 
    
    "Now, I know that when I paid my money for X-Cad, I had no promises,
    implied or otherwise, that upgrades would be provided." 
    
    it doesn't matter if you knew or didn't that you had no promises of
    upgrades that would ultimately render your purchase fit,  you may be
    entitled to them under the law.
    
    I'm interested in persuing this topic, and perhaps doing something to
    improve the lot of Amiga software purchasers.
    
    John

    By the way, I've located a source for Design-3D for $47.50.  Is it
    worth 50 bucks?  I want to do some simple 3-d mechanical design (for
    sheet metal enclosures, etc.).  
    
    Thanks,
    
    John

Ed,


		Have you tried Caligari?  It lets you build objects using built-
	in or constructed primatives and is very intuative in it's handling of
	view or object rotations/scaling/moving.  It does a pretty good job
	rendering as well.  Only $169.00 at the Software Shop.

							Jim

    
    I had downloaded a functional demo of Caligari many moons ago, and I
    was impressed at its capabilities.  However, what I would like is a
    package that can do the following:
    
    1.  Design a wireframe model in an isometric view using highly
    	efficient construction techniques.  Point-to-point geometry
    	just doesn't make it.  As an alternative, using geometric 
    	primitives is also an accepted way of building geometry.
    
    2.  From the 3D model, project top, front, and right or for that 
    	matter any auxiliary views needed to full describe the model.
    
    3.  Go into each projected view and add dimensions, notes, etc.
    	I also expect good CAD software to offer full two-way associativity
    	between the entity and the dimension; ie, if I stretch or trim 
    	an entity, the dimension should be modified.  Or, if I edit a 
    	dimension, the entity should be modified.
    
    4.  As a visual aid, I expect to be able to shade or ray-trace the
    	finished model.
    
    So far, Amiga software excels only at step 4.  Step one has been met by
    X-Cad, but it only supports 2D vectors.  I had heard rumors that X-Cad,
    being modular by in it's design, would eventually migrate to true 3D,
    much as AutoCAD has.
    
    Ed.
    

Well, I don't need all those things for the work I'm doing.  But 
I do agree that there should be a package for the Amiga that 
does tho.

As for Design 3D, it allows me to create 3D images that I can 
import into Professional Page for output on a laserprinter 
without jaggies.  I don't know of any others that allow this.  
Even hi-res bitmapped images are jaggy when imported into PPage.  
These drawing files are much smaller and output quite well.

I am learing to use more of the functions of Design 3D as I use 
it more.  The documentation really sucks.  They tell you to try 
something, but never tell you what you should expect as the 
result, or why you would want to do it in the first place.  The 
manual is woefully brief for such complicated 3D creation and 
editing functions.

I did create some ANIM files last night...and it does work.  You 
don't have overscan and there are some other limitations, but it 
does work.

If you found it for under $50.00, I don't think you could go 
wrong...as long as you can put up with the shortcomings listed in 
.1

Randy

            <<< Note 3217.12 by HYSTER::DEARBORN "Trouvez Mieux" >>>
                            -< I don't ask as much >-

>If you found it for under $50.00, I don't think you could go 
>wrong...as long as you can put up with the shortcomings listed in 
>.1

Whoops, I mean 3217.0

Randy

        I don't want to start a war here, but I'd rather suggest the
        following than see Ed surcumb to an Apple...
        
        You might consider investigating DynaCadd on the Atari.  It does
        both 2-D and 3-D and has been reported to be much friendlier than
        AutoCad and what AutoCad V10.0 would be.
        
        The cost of DynaCadd is around $600 list, but normally sells for
        $419.  It also works nicely with Moniterms 19" monochrome monitor
        (a $2,000 accessary for the ST).
        
        With a Mega ST-2 going for $1,169 you can put together a pretty
        decent CAD system for very little money and add a Spectre GCR if
        you really want to run MacIntosh software.
        
        Just don't but an overpriced Apple!
        
        BTW - The TT does exist, is out to the developers and the
              expected price in under $2,000.
        
        Bob

    
    I have one large requirement that the Atari just can't fulfill... the
    need for a high resolution color mode.  The ST has a wonderful 400 line
    flicker-free monochrome mode, but color is a real must.  The Amiga can
    handle up to 768 x 480 resolution in 16 colors, and I already have a
    nice multisync monitor and de-interlacing board.  I also have a
    68020/68881 running, so my hardware is just fine.
    
    Do you have a number for the publishers of DynaCADD?  I'd like to give
    them a call and see it there are any plans for an Amiga version.
    
    (PS:  I read a review of DynaCADD in Computer Shopper some time ago,
    and other than the lack of hi-res color on the ST, it seemed like it
    met my list of demands, although I don't remember if it performed
    shading or not)
    
    Thanks for the input Bob.
    
    Ed.

    For 1000+ you would think someone could come up with an answer on
    the Amiga.Is professional xcad available yet.As for Ed buying a
    MAC I am not too worried.I can just imagine him sitting there waiting
    for a task to finish so he could log into the vax or whatever.I
    have had to use an MSdos machine(AT clone) as of late,and it was
    a bummer.i started a batch that was going to run several hours,and
    thought I wish I could upload the results of the first batch,AND
    run this process.But back to the question.What cad software is
    avalible.
    								bill

        Real late, but...
        
        ISD just announced (last month) V1.7 of DynaCADD which now runs
        on the Atari ST and TT as well as any 100% compatible
        AT/286/386/486 or PS-2.
        
        I think it is only mono though.
        
        The address is:
        
                        ISD Marketing
                        2651 John St.
                        Unit 3
                        Markham, Ontario, Canada
                                          L3R 2W5
                        (416) 479-1882