Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    
    The A500/A590 system at the Leiser Superstore in Auburn MA was working
    perfectly.  There was a whole diskful of the great ray-traced
    animations, and everything was set up and working properly.  Someone
    even figured out how to get all the ASSIGNs set up correctly.
    
    The A500 really stands out among the sea of low-cost CGA/8088 clones
    that they're selling.  The only problem is that they don't sell a shred
    of software for either Amy or the PC clones!  Who on earth would buy a
    system from a dealer that can't even demo a simple word processor? 
    Especially, as Steve points out, when their prices are almost full
    retail?
    
    Ed
    

    I think that CBM has taken a step in the wron direction with is's
    mass market decision.While thay will get more visability this way
    one has to wonder if this is good.I mean more visability in a setting
    that will not support the pontential of the system,and at a cost
    that is not structured for the mass market may do more harm than
    good.It will probably promote IIgs sales more than amigas.Remember
    that if your shopping for a computer in a TV store,you probably
    don't understand the market.I can hear it now"I saw an Amiga this
    week,looked ok but no software"
								bill

FWIW, the new prez of Commodore axed the planned deal to sell 500s through
SEARS. The old pres had set it up and the advert made it to the catalogue,
but they pulled the distribution ostensibly for just the reasons mentioned here
and on the nets and in the mags - selling mass market can harm the Amiga image.

    I'm ambivalent about the "mass marketing" of the A500.  While I would
    NOT want to run into A500s at Toys-R-Us or Caldor, I WOULD like to see
    them at Sears, Lechmere, and similar places that can do them SOME
    justice.  Why?  Because customers won't find the Memory Location and
    the other truly great Amiga shops by themselves.
    
    First-time computer buyers don't know where to go or what to buy.  Most
    would rather buy from a dealer that they have some confidence in. 
    The same types of places that sell name-brand TV sets and stereo
    equipment are likely candidates for PC sales, including the A500. 
    
    Commodore should help these companies to break into that market, if
    they haven't already done so.  Commodore is in the nice position of
    being able to supply a PC clone at an attractive price, and the A500
    (also at an attractive price) to catch the Apple crowd.  The dealer
    should also be supplied with a few (not more than a dozen titles total)
    decent productivity packages for each (the Gold Disk Appetizer pack is
    a good start in this regard).
    
    Once new users are in the fold, THEY'LL find the serious dealers for
    upgrades and additional software.  As I see it, everybody wins! 
    Commodore gets much better market exposure (and hopefully sells a bunch
    of systems), the "mass-market" dealers have a new product line without
    an obscene investment, the serious dealers have a larger installed base
    to draw from, and (as a result of increased Amiga sales) more software
    houses crank out quality software and accessories for the Amiga.

    Re: .3 (Axeing 500 sales thru Sears)

    Definitely NOT TRUE. I'm not ashamed to admit that I bought my 500 thru
    Sears, just 2 weeks ago. Took just a week to arrive in the store from the
    time I placed the order. Why thru Sears & not a dealer? My wife's an
    employee & the price with her discount was just too good to pass up.
    All the rest of my equipment came from either Memory Location or Omnitek,
    so I don't feel bad at all having bought my 500 from Sears. FWIW, 2 years
    ago I purchased my 128D from Sears as well. I really wonder why they don't
    carry the Amiga in the store, since the other Commodore computers are
    on display (64C & their IBM clone). I'll agree, you don't get the support
    you get from a C= dealer, but its a viable method of getting Amigas
    some publicity.

						    -Dom

Ed,
    
>   The A500/A590 system at the Leiser Superstore in Auburn MA was working
>   perfectly. 

The problems that I fixed had happened yesterday afternoon. Before that, it
had been working well. It is again!

>   The A500 really stands out among the sea of low-cost CGA/8088 clones
>   that they're selling. 

I agree 100%. It definitely generated some interest while I was there. I feel 
this is THE reason to place the "entry point" in a mass market store. It gets
people going on it. It also helps to have sales folks that are interested in
the product... As I said, I had met one, I hope there are others there too.

The A500 is priced in the range of Leiser mass market products. It also gets
much more visibility there than at the Memory Location or System Eyes. People
who are not explicitly looking for an Amiga get a change to compare it to 
the dregs of the IBM clones which are priced in the same area. Makes  the
Amiga look really fine!

>   Who on earth would buy a system from a dealer that can't even demo a 
>   simple word processor? 

Ah, but they could! There was a music program, paint program, word processor,
and some other programs available as well - from the appetizer package. Also 
the Amiga 500 tutorial was there as well. See, not as bad as you might think!

I feel that mass market selling of the A500 is not bad if:

1) The mass marketeer provides access to Amiga software directly (or)

2) The mass marketeer does not sell software but provides a list of SW dealers.

3) Commodore provides 1-800 number SW dealer location services which are BOLDLY
   pointed out in the documentation (in the box). You know, where are the 
   nearest "n" dealers of Amiga SW?

With the above, even Memory Location should be happy about mass marketing the 
Amiga 500. The initial sale is lost, but that is relatively low margin anyway.
What is won is the followup software business the mass marketeer probably did
not want anyway. Result - Much higher software and peripherial sales at the 
Amiga specific shops we all want to support anyway. Remember, the Amiga 500
is within the price range of an impulse buy, and people who buy the Amiga
from a mass marketeer would likely not have searched out the memory location
*before* buying an Amiga.

	-SES

re: .5  Very interesting. So much for believing everything you read! Since
I hadn't seen any displayed in SEARS, I thought the story was true. It seems
weird to display 128s but not Amigas. 
Dave

    re: Sears
    
    one other possibility could be that CBM tried to cancel the
    deal but Sears knows how to write a good contract to prevent things
    like that.  After all, I don't imagine Sears would have been real
    thrilled to have to send back the $500+ to anybody who ordered a 500
    from the wish book.
    
    Of course, then again, there is the new SEARS, the one that boasts
    of brand name merchandise and has finally started competing with
    K-Mart and other mass market stores.  Just the sort of place CBM
    claimed to want to keep the 500 out of.  Has anybody seen a 500
    in the store, not just in the wish book?
    
    -Dave

    I think a key point that should be considered when weighing the
    pros & cons of mass merchandising is that the people will pick the
    brains of the experts at the computer stores and then buy the systems
    at the discount chains.  It only takes a couple of years of that
    type of behavior to drive you local computer store out of business.
     Mass merchandising can be the death knell of a technical product
    whose success is built upon the resources behind the sale.  
    
    When you go to Lechmere's or Sears to but a TV or Stereo and you
    have technical questions about features of one product vs another,
    or one vendor vs another, you find out that this bonehead ususally
    works in the Kitchen Department and all he can do for you is ring
    up the sale (if you know what you want).  Where is the added value?
    
    Selling a couple of A500's into household without having the technical
    ability to properly set expectation about the features, learning
    curves etc will leave a customer frustrated and feeling like this
    technolgy is a bunch of hype.  Then they go about badmouthing the
    manufacturers product.
    
    I do not like throwing my money away, but I recognize the value
    of technical expertise (not everybody has the DEC Notesfile at their
    disposal), and there is a cost associated with that expertise.
    
    A manufacturer has to be very sensitive and selective in how they
    pursue sales channels.
    
    Chuck
    (who just got off his soapbox)

RE: .6

I called the Memory location and spoke with Don Towne. He told me he has 
already contacted Leiser corporate and they consider him to be competition.
This means they do not want any referals to The Memory Location [or other
amiga dealers....] in the Leiser Stores. Heavy Sigh! I think a cooperation
could benefit Leiser, Dedicated amiga dealers, and most of all the Amiga 
customer.

	-SES

    Lechmere and Sears have been selling Epson, Laser, Franklin, Panasonic,
    Brother and a number of other brand names for a number of years
    now with little damage to those names.  Radio Shack has been selling
    their Tandy line for nearly a decade and sales are still brisk in
    spite of "boasting" a below average bang-for-buck ratio.  These
    three chains are not Zayres or Caldors or Medi-Marts, not quite,
    and the buyers expect to find "respectable" merchandise on their
    shelves.  Their customers don't want to know about cutting edge
    stuff and wouldn't know what to do with it or why they should try.
    They want to be able to return it if it breaks, have it delivered
    if it's bulky, not have to argue about the warranty, and if they
    give one to Aunt Maud who still lives over the river and through
    the woods then she won't have to bring it to THEIR local store if
    there's a problem.
    	There have been suggestions that people who want advanced utility
    or information might either pirate it from the specialty stores
    or never find the specialty stores to fill their needs.  Face it,
    most computer users to not have the specialty needs that many of
    those active in this file take for granted.  A very many Amiga 500s
    are purchased with arcade action in mind and WP, DP, graphic design
    and spreadsheets on the tongue.  This is not unusual for any model
    capable of graphics. Check out the ads in the WantAdvertiser - or
    your local variant - and see the used systems being sold with "hundreds
    of dollars worth of games" and one or two productivity packages.
    The folk who buy at Sears most likely are not yet ready to deal
    with what the specialty stores have to offer, like the A2500HD with
    (mumble software mumble), but will take the product that catches
    their eye and then either grow up to the serious stuff or hide their
    mistake in the closet.  Better they grow up in the GUI tradition
    than on a clone.
    	Apologies to anyone who feels that my sweeping generalizations
    were intended to apply to them.  Just reading, much less participating
    in, a notes file such as this raises you out of the category of
    "most users".

   Re: .11

>    The folk who buy at Sears most likely are not yet ready to deal
>    with what the specialty stores have to offer, like the A2500HD with
>    (mumble software mumble), but will take the product that catches
>    their eye and then either grow up to the serious stuff or hide their
>    mistake in the closet.  Better they grow up in the GUI tradition
>    than on a clone.
>    	Apologies to anyone who feels that my sweeping generalizations
>    were intended to apply to them.  Just reading, much less participating
>    in, a notes file such as this raises you out of the category of
>    "most users".

    Gee, thanks Dave. What a friend. :-) Apologies accepted. :-) :-)

    A lot depends of course on the expertise of the person in the mass-market
    store (or specialty store for that matter) selling/demoing the merchandise.
    Omnitek (an authorized C= dealer) has taken some heat lately in this
    conference for not being "up to snuff". I've been given some pretty
    pathetic demos at Apple dealers and had seen some pretty impressive
    demos given at Lechmere when they were selling Atari STs. I'll agree,
    I wouldn't want to see 2000s on sale at Sears, but getting the 500 out
    there in this manner is okay by me. Just as long as Amigas don't start
    showing up on the Home Shopping Network :-}.
						    -Dom

    Dom,
    	now how did I guess that my comment might catch YOUR eye? ;-)
    The one time I looked at computers in Sears, not that long back,
    not one of the three salespeople knew as much about ANY of the several
    computers on the rack as I knew about most of them.  What could
    they offer for a demo ?  Some software that various customers had
    opened in the store - and they hadn't the slightest idea how to
    use it.  Oh, it needs a mouse? (joystick?) Gee, we don't have any
    of those on the floor right now.  I didn't buy there. 

    Actually, selling Amiga 500's via the Home Shopping Channel isn't
    that bad an idea.  They target the not quite PC literate user that is
    just looking for a complete package (hardware & software) that matches
    the claims HSC makes.  Its an impulse buy.  I enjoy listening to the
    callers that get put on the air at 3am in the morning justifying why
    they just bought an over $1000 computer from HSC.  
    
    They offer to provide the same level of security that an earlier reply
    indicated was needed.
    
    Plus it would give the Amiga alot of "free" publicity for at least name
    recognition.  
    
    dennis (who has never bought from HSC)

Commodore needs to do something to add to the dealer base, and I suspect
that Sears isn't such a bad idea.

One of the goals of Copperman is no mail order, and he seems to be working
to eliminate it.  Once he does, that means that potential Amiga owners
in areas not served by an Amiga store will not be able to get machines.
"Low end" dealerships like Sears or electronics stores are needed to
make Amigas available in backward parts of the country.  (Its my impression
that the "low end" dealerships tend to offer machines for close to list
price, so a full service dealer would rather compete against Sears
than a mail order house.)

About Sears:

The version of the story that I remember was that Commodore was negotiating
with Sears before Copperman became president.   Copperman loved the idea of
Amiga 500s in Sears stores, and hated the idea of Amiga 500s only in
the Sears catalog.  Unfortunately, he wasn't able to get the 500 into the
stores, or back out of getting them in the catalog.