Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    
    One more comment, then off to bed...
    
    I'll make a prediction:  Every single person in the Mac notes will tell
    you that the Amiga is a toy and that you shouldn't even consider one. 
    In a few cases, this is pure Amiga-envy, but it's generally ignorance
    of anything Amiga-related.  Listen to what they tell you about the Mac,
    which they understand.  Don't listen to what they tell you about the
    Amiga, which they don't understand.
    
    The same goes for us in Amiga-land.
    
    Finally, wise people will tell you to decide which software you need to
    use, then buy the hardware that runs the software.  If all your choices
    meet your software requirements, then get a good long demo of each
    machine from a knowledgable salesperson.  Multi-vendor dealers are not
    the best place to get an unbiased opinion, since salesmen have their
    pet machines.
    
    Good luck.
    

    As a Mac AND Amiga 2000 owner, I can add a few comments:
    
    Good luck with BBC BASIC on either!
    
    The Mac is MUCH easier to use and to learn. No CLI to learn.
    
    The real issue is software. The Mac has far far superior business,
    presentation and DTP software available. It is also far more expensive
    than the vaguely equivalent Amiga SW. The Amiga has much much better
    games SW. There's no real substitute for colour in games! I've played
    Flight Simulator on both. I'ts a real bore on the Mac.
    
    Output devices are another issue. If you plan on using a B/W laser printer
    or B/W impact printer, colour on screen is only a gimmick. The Mac+
    and SE have 72 DPI screens. This means that you really get what
    you see on the screen when you print. The normal, low res Amiga
    screen is quite disappointing for WYSIWYG.
    
    The cost of a MAC is about double that of an Amiga. A MacSE (20)
    with imagewriterII sells at discount in Geneva for about SFr6500.
    I bought an Amiga with colour monitor and 24 pin Epson for Sfr2990.
    No hard disk though.
    
    The A-Max Mac emulator does not support the use of a hard disk and
    has buggy printer emulation for 9 and 24 pin Epsons..
     I'm buying one, however.
    
    I only originally bought the Mac because I could get it at a 60%
    discount. Don't all phone, I can't get it any more. This is why
    I bought the Amiga after my divorce (the ex has the Mac).
    
    Neither will please the UK schools system. I suppose they are using
    IBMs and Acorns. Archimedes seems fast, reasonably priced but without
    much software. Acorn used to have a very very bad service reputation.
    I don't know if it has improved.
    
    

A small correction to :-
    
    "a) Reasonably fast CPU (for our US friends the Archimedes is
       rated about at least 4 & 8 times as fast as the 68000 - and it's       
       claimed to be the fastest PC in the world - with its ARM RISC chip       
       it's rated at 4 mips)"

It should read:-


    a) A reasonably fast and efficient CPU.
 
       For our US friends the ACORN Archemedes has an ARM RISC chip set
       which is rated somewhere between 4 and 8 times faster than 68000,
       at 4 mips; the makers claim it's the fastest PC in the world. Measured
       with the BYTE benchmarks it's second only to a CRAY!
    

    I believe the Amiga has a blindingly fast BBC micro emulator. I
    have a report of it somewhere. Apart from 'dirty' software, it ran
    all BBC micro software. Part of the demo showed that even running
    four BBC applications in four separate windows, the Amiga was still
    faster than the venerable BBC micro.
    
    From what I've heard, the Archimedes has a 'pig' of a user interface,
    is damn tricky to write applications for, but is great for techies.
    In a few more years, it may have a decent selection of software
    and peripherals. However, I suspect that it will occupy a niche
    market.
    
    The Mac is a good machine, but very over priced. As you know, its
    a deliberate policy in the UK.
    
    I like my A2000. My wife loves the user interface. We have it connected
    to work via a modem, and the VT200 emulator (available over the
    net) works a treat.
    
    Another factor that may sway you is the X-windows software for the
    Amiga. As soon as I get my act together, and a budget, I shall be
    testing its serial line capabilities. If all goes well, I should,
    depending on BT, be able to run DECwrite, etc from home over a modem
    line!!
    
    Angus
         

    
    As for the Amiga-Mac war, I would let the bucks talk.
    
    If you want to do business related work (AKA $$$), I would 
    *NEVER* go with the amiga.   The average quality/service
    etc is worst than radio shack.
    
    The MAC are more expensive, true, but just feel the mouse
    and you will see the quality right there.
    
    The MAC is for business ONLY.  The amiga does not have the
    (Black & White) resolution needed for some work related
    applications.
    
    If you want to play games AND can afford to live with few software
    bugs, poor service and so-so harware quality, go for the Amiga.
    (That's what I did and don't regret it).
    
    My brother (who take ALL his income from a MAC) would NEVER go
    for the Amiga. 
    
    My last comment is also language related,  the MAC OS / most
    applications are available in foreign languages. Forget it 
    for the Amiga. (They are telling me the french-canadian
    keyboard is due out since the 2000 is out, but I have yet
    to see it...)
    
The MAC is definitely more professional, the Amiga more fun.
    
    No offence!,  Vince.

    Ed had given some real good information in his replies.  From what
    I have read the Acorn is a fine hardware base, but the total lack of
    software pretty much leave the battle to the Mac .vs. the Amiga.
    
    This has been discussed before, and I even asked the same question
    when I bought my Amiga about 1 year ago.  The Amiga is the clear winner
    in terms of price/performance.  Everything that Ed has mentioned
    (the custom chipset, the multitasking OS, the upgrade paths, etc)
    make it a really impressive machine.  However, if you're buying a
    computer for a business, currently the Mac is the best choice, due
    to it's fine business software base.
    
    If you're buying it for home usage that includes, DP, programming,
    games, and cost _is_ an object - then the Amiga is the clear winner.
    
    Desk Top Publishing?  Check out Paul MacDonalds Ham radio newsletter.
    You (and the Mac owners) will be amazed at the high quality.
    Importing images is a snap, due the the consistent set of tools
    to operate on IFF images.  A technical writer friend (occasional Mac 
    user) was suitably impressed.
    
    The Amiga is a really remarkable creative platform.  Are you planning
    on doing any computer art? Ray-tracing? Animation? Music? Digitizing?
    Software Development? Buy an Amiga!
    
    There are quite a few very good VT220 emulators, with more on the way.
    The ones that I use are Shareware.  The Amiga has a really fine 
    Shareware and Public Domain base.  I use a lot of this type of 
    software, not only because it's cheap, but because a lot of it is
    quite good.  I've seen a lot of Mac PD software, and most of it's
    lucky to finish without crashing.  Fred Fish does an excellent job
    of compiling and distributing the best Amiga PD software, which
    is probably responsible for the higher quality.
    
    If you or your son's are planning on doing software development - C
    is the Amiga's native language.  I think Lattice C 5.0 is a really
    great product.  They also offer C++, which is also highly regarded.
    It comes with Basic. Fortran, Prolog, Lisp, Pascal, etc, are available.
    
    Games?  What do you think.  Nothing else even comes close, in terms
    of intellectual or shoot-n-destroy type games.  Using a VTxxx type
    terminal, you can make your Amiga a multi-user system.  How about
    doing some editing/programming while someone else is playing a game?
    Do you need/want X-window's at home?
    
    I can't comment on the educational software.  Not nearly as good as the
    Mac's I would wager.
    
    Not knowing your exact budget, I don't know what you can really afford.
    An Amiga 2000 with a good controller/HD, Multisynch monitor, and a good
    selection of software will run you $2500-3000.  You then have a great
    base on which to build.  Adding more RAM, a 68020/030, ethernet,
    extra serial ports, Flicker Fixer, Digitizer, etc, etc, is a snap.
    (provided you have the money, of course :^)
    
    I'd say that your needs match up almost exactly with what an Amiga can
    give you.  Anything it doesn't give you out of the box, you
    can always add.  Like a PC/AT or a Macintosh.  Buy an Amiga!  
    
    ~Steve
    
    -- Don't get the impression that you have to add.  As is, it is a very
       useful and impressive machine.  It is nice to know that you are not
       limited when you buy it, and that it can grow as your needs change.
       You're not locked into limits on processor power, RAM, etc.

    When I went shopping for a home system my determining factor was
    cost.I quickly found out that it does not matter how much more some
    systems offer if you can't afford them.The uses you mention appear
    to fall right in line with the Amiga.we have to take into account
    the extras needed to fill out an application.I feel that my 2000
    has the quality needed for any application,but admit some software
    is not yet mature enough to meet heavy business needs.Of course
    many other systems offer the stability many business users look
    for most notable the Mac,and IBM's.The reality of life however is
    'back up your software'regardless of system you own.If this is done
    properly on say an amiga,but neglected on a Mac then who is working
    in the better business enviorment.Before you spend a dime go out
    and try all the makes you can.Then make a list of the software titles
    you need for each make system an total the cost.At that time you
    should know what you want,and how much you need to spend.The bottom
    line is "Your the one who has to live with it".
    							bill   

    For those of you interested in the comments from the two other
    notes conferences, you can find the original note posted in:
    
    MOSAIC::MACINTOSH        note 2973
    
    BOMBE::AMIGA             note 2905
    
    TRUCKS::ACORN_MICROS     note 267
    
    
    For those interested in more information on the Archimedes see notes
    170, 186 224 233, 257, 260, and 263 in latter conference.
    
    ps My thanks to the editor of the Amiga conference for some responsive,
       excellent and objective comments.

    One other thing to keep in mind.......
    
     The Amiga has now sold 1 million units. This means that software
    developers will see a profitable market and you then will see improved
    software for business applications. 
    
     Just look at the increase of software overall in just 2 years time!
    
    
                                      For what its worth

    
    In another 'good news' development, Commodore will financially back
    selected developers who would like to start an important project.  This
    is a first for CBM, and is more like an Apple/NeXT tactic.
    
    I also read in COMP_SYS_AMIGA that Microsoft and Lotus would like to
    port to the Amiga if hardware sales can justify it.
    
    Ed

    Re .12:
    
>   I also read in COMP_SYS_AMIGA that Microsoft and Lotus would like to
>   port to the Amiga if hardware sales can justify it.
    
    That's good news.  Of course, those who just can't wait can run MS/DOS
    software to their hearts' content using the BridgeBoard on an A2000.

    With any due apologies, I am going to resurrect this topic.
    
    I am contemplating spending some of my redundancy money on a computer,
    mainly for the benefit of my children, although I expect I will play
    with it as well. The monst - er - darlings are 10 and 8 years old.
    British schools use mostly a mix of antique Acorn BBCs with Queen Anne
    legs, and current model Acorn A3000s, so my first thought was one of
    them, currently being marketed with an educational package called
    "Learning Curve".
    
    Then some teachers I know said I should get an Amiga 500, on the flimsy
    grounds that it had better graphics, a good BBC emulator, available IBM
    PC emulation (which is one of my requirements), and compatibility with
    the scool systems does not really matter, and it will do the little
    b****s good to get familiar with a different machine.
    
    As a total non techie, my brain is now totally banjaxed. What do I do?
    Why? Will I understand?
    
    Steve (a totally confused Brit)  

    Re .14:
    
>   With any due apologies, I am going to resurrect this topic.
    
    We don't mind.  We LOVE talking about our favo[u]rite computer. 8^)
    
>   I am contemplating spending some of my redundancy money on a computer,
>   mainly for the benefit of my children, although I expect I will play
>   with it as well. The monst - er - darlings are 10 and 8 years old.
>   British schools use mostly a mix of antique Acorn BBCs with Queen Anne
>   legs, and current model Acorn A3000s, so my first thought was one of
>   them, currently being marketed with an educational package called
>   "Learning Curve".
    
    Acorn systems are unavailable in the U.S. so I can't speak to relative
    features or software availability.  Though you might consider you're
    buying the system for your children, you WILL discover its usefulness
    for the things YOU want/need to do.  For example, if you get a modem
    and one of the several decent VT100/VT200 emulation programs that are
    available as "shareware" (the author requests a nominal fee for his
    efforts) for the Amiga, you'll have access to the great wealth of
    freely-distributable software (i.e. the entire set of Fred Fish disks
    containing games, utilities, etc.) that are available through the ENet.
    
>   Then some teachers I know said I should get an Amiga 500, on the flimsy
>   grounds that it had better graphics, a good BBC emulator, available IBM
>   PC emulation (which is one of my requirements), and compatibility with
>   the school systems does not really matter, and it will do the little
>   b****s good to get familiar with a different machine.
    
    I'd suggest the "A1500", which seems to be a cost-reduced A2000 aimed
    at the U.K. market.  Add the A2091 SCSI disk/memory controller (or
    equivalent) with at least a 40MB drive and a second MB of memory.  That
    will bring you to a total of 2MB (3MB is better), which is a nice
    configuration.  For PC compatibility, you can add a "BridgeBoard" or
    possibly the German ATonce board.
    
    Good quality graphics and sound capabilities are standard equipment, so
    you WON'T have to pay for accessory boards that may or may not be
    supported by all software.  In addition to an excellent selection of
    high-quality games, there are plenty of educational programs (does
    anyone actually BUY them or do we just point and wave at them to assure
    parents that they aren't throwing money away on a "game machine"? 8^)
    and good "productivity" (word processing, desktop publishing,
    spreadsheets, et al) software and "creativity" (2D/3D drawing,
    sound/music creation/MIDI sequencing, "multi-media", et al).
    
    The Amiga has a well-designed operating system that provides both true
    multi-tasking (so you can be downloading a Fred Fish disk from the
    network, while in another window you're decomposing the previous
    download into separate directories and files, while in yet another
    window you're updating your spreadsheet, while in still another window
    your word processor is printing a school report).
    
>   As a total non techie, my brain is now totally banjaxed. What do I do?
>   Why? Will I understand?
    
    In the long run, you'll be MUCH happier if you DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST
    TIME.  That may imply a larger investment at the outset, but it also
    means you'll be spared later frustration over some limitation that
    might be imposed by starting "on the cheap".  That's why I'd suggest
    the A1500 over the standard A500.  I have the latter and love it, but I
    also live with several limitations on future growth that I could have
    avoided by buying an A2000 at the outset.

     Go for it!  What else did you expect us to say? ;-) ;-)
     
     Seriously, I think there is no computer out there that is inherently
     more appropriate for a home computer than the A500. When you start
     adding requirements that include emulating much less capable machines
     the "idealness" issue gets cloudy. I believe you will find that the
     A500 is a good deal even if you add a PC hardware emulator like ATonce
     and use the  BBC emulator(s?). You have to choose your tradeoffs. 
     
     In my opinion, the people who get all excited about $1200 386 clones
     for a home computer are looking for power in the wrong places, or
     looking to stock up on stolen software (from the office or friends).
     To make one of those clones into a decent home computer you need to
     add a sound card, mouse, windows software and maybe extra graphics
     boards (forgive me if I don't know what color capabilities a $1200
     clone offers). The amiga 500 has a slower processor but includes
     the features that a home computer needs at a very reasonble 
     starting price.
     
     A lot of people think a home computer should let them do a little
     extra work at home, so it has to be compatible. In my opinion, again,
     a home computer is not about extending your day job into the evening.
     The main goals should be enjoyment, learning, creating, and generally
     expanding the horizons of a family. 
     
     Of course lots of people buy things using false justifications.
     
     Dave

Of course I endorse the previous replies, but...

To really seal the deal, I'll bet you can find some local Amigans who've put
together an *Acorn emulator* for the Amiga! (If not, you can have the
project...) Just think: you can do all the neat stuff only the Amiga can do,
with a "virtual Acorn" running in one of your windows...

Cheers,
	Bob

    
    As one who has owned several Amigas and now owns a top-end 386 Clone, I
    can add a unique perspective.
    
    The Amiga is about the best choice as a home computer, if we define a
    home computer as follows:
    
    * Has a wide selection of entertainment and home management software.
    * Has a very impressive lowest common denominator for graphics, sound
      and overall speed.
    * Is reasonably priced.
    
    A PC Clone and a Mac both satisfy my first requirement, and the Clone
    certainly satisfies the third, but it's the second criteria where the
    Amiga stands head and shoulders above the others.  I think that
    software developers tend towards the lowest common denominator machine,
    which in the case of the Mac, is a B&W Classic, and in the Clones is a
    12 MHz 286/VGA machine.  A stock Amiga (any model) can run rings around
    either of these while doing the things that one would expect a home
    computer to do.
    
    I am using my 386 purely to get work done, but when my boy gets a
    little older, I'll probably buy some form of Amiga for him.
    
    Ed.

First, a generic comment - if you don't know what you need, buy as much
computer as you need. The reason for this is that if you buy more computer
than you need it means you paid to much to get the facility you've got. If
you buy to little, then you paid money for something that's worthless, and
the latter is generally considered to be worse than the former.

I poked a little at the Acorn when I bought my Amiga 3000. From what I heard,
it was a hot machine. More CPU than the Amiga, and they had already dealt
with the need for more resolution in the graphics. On the down side, you
couldn't put enough memory in them to make me happy (4 meg max), and the
graphics memory was lifted from the available memory. This not only cut into
your system memory, it cut into the bandwidth for same.

The real killer was that I would have had to order it from the UK. Since that's
not a problem for you, you might want to take a serious look at it.

One thing that didn't worry me much was the lack of a software base for the
Acorn. You probalby want to take a closer look than I did, though.

	<mike

    Thank you all for your advice.
    
    I am still confused. I think my decision is to wait until I know what,
    if any, equipment my new employers will provide at home. Then I will
    find some dealers who can provide a demonstration of the various
    contenders - which will include both A500 and A1500.
    
    Steve (Still confused Brit)