Conference hydra::amiga_v1

What about the A500?

John

Would someone explain the benefits of the new AGNUS chip nad the 1meg of
chip ram.  Which applications is it going to affect and how.  I know the
difference between chip ram and fast ram. I'm just not sure how I would use
extra chip ram.

Thanks
-Tom-

Re: .2

Mostly, having one meg of chip ram doesn't add any new features to
anything: it removes a few limitations.

All graphics and audio data in the Amiga must be stored in chip ram.
There is 512K available for this purpose.  Because there is only 512K,
this limits the number of windows and screens you can open.  I once
tried to start the maximum number of CLIs possible.  Because I opened
them with the maximum size window, I found out I ran out of chip ram
for the windows before I hit the limit for CLI processes or ran out
of general memory.

So, one meg of chip ram simply doubles the amount of video and audio data
you can use.  You may have never been troubled by this limit, so it may
not mean very much to you personally.  I've never really been troubled
by this limit.

In the future, Amiga screens will have the ability to be much larger.
Four hundred line screens will be more common, and the large new frame
buffer monitors (1008 by 800) will be supported.  Higher screen resolutions
will cause the Amiga to gobble chip memory more quickly.  The old 512K
limit will be far more unreasonable.  One window 1008 pixel by 800 line
by 4 color display will use 197K of chip memory!

    
    Re: .2 
    
    And in addition to Randy's fine comment, just let me tell ya that
    there are some more "hidden" goodies in the new Agnus, that make
    it even more "future compatible".
    Like the ability to do 32K wide Bit-Blits (currently limited to
    1K).
    
    -	<CB>
    

From what Randy says there are not any individual programs that will benefit
from the extra chip memory over the same amount of fast memory.  It can have
a dramatic impact on multi-tasking with multiple high resolution screens.
New display formats with more pixels will also make it helpful to have.

In summary it's not going to allow me to do anything with a product like
DPaint that I can't do today provided I have the same amount of total memory.
-Tom-

    re: .5---I'm not sure that's completely true.  I think you may be able
    to use larger windows and/or more colors with Express Paint if you have
    the larger CHIP ram.
        John Sauter

    
    Actually, Express Paint and Deluxe Photo Lab cleverly utilize ALL
    available system ram for images.  You can have a bitmap as large as
    available memory.
    
    Ed.

    Deluxe Paint, Deluxe Video and Deluxe Productions would all benefit.
     They need all the chip ram they can get to run.  Deluxe Paint often
    will only run with a limited palette in higher resolutions because
    of this.  It will also often not allow a spare screen.
                  
    Professional Page and Professional Draw are two more that are chip
    ram intensive.

Deluxe Music Construction Set unfortunatly only knows how to keep its data in
chip memory.  This may be a limitation due to speed, however I do believe that
it should use all available chip memory and allow for larger scores/more
instruments in memory.  Other music programs may have the same restrictions.

So just which dealers have the new Agnus, anyway?

John

    
    They're on order at the Memory Location, but the Software Shop won't be
    able to obtain them, since they're not an authorized CBM service center
    (although Moe is going to become one).
    
    Don at TML gave me a price of $125, which I though was a bit steep.
    
    Ed.

    My memory is failing me (so is everything else), but if sampled sound
    is also processed by Agnus, then another benefit for the extra chip ram
    is that you will be able to playback longer sampled sounds.
    
    Chong.

    
    Sorry guys, I can't resist -
    
    Moe(Software Shop), a Comodore service center!!!  That's the funniest
    thing I've ever seen in this notesfile.  That guy is a total
    incompetent.  All he knows about computers, hardware, and software is
    what he reads in Amiga World and the like (and he only gets about 20%
    of that correct).  In my opinion he should have stuck to selling
    insurance.  In addition, I think he's one of the most obnoxious
    people I've ever met in my life.  
    
    Of course this is MY opinion only.
    
    Frank
    
    

    
    Other than that, what do you think of him, Frank? :^)
    
    Yeah, Moe could sure use lessons in diplomacy.  Unfortunately, I'm too
    poor to open my own dealership and put him out of business...
    
    By the way, in order for Moe to become an official service center, he'd
    have to hire a technician and ship him off to Amiga school in
    Westchester PA.  I don't think there's any danger of Moe becoming an
    Amiga repairman himself.
    
    Ed.
    

    Well Ed - I could say a lot but I didn't want to offend folks like
    yourself who (I gather from this notesfile) may be regular customers.
    Gee! I admit I go there myself and each time I do, I vow not to
    go back, but I always do.  I guess its my impatience that does it,
    when I make up my mind to get something I hate to wait and he's
    so convenient to Marlboro.
    
    Every time I go there we get into a hastle.  My pet peeves -
    1. No prices are marked and I swear he sizes you up as to what he
       thinks he can get away with charging you.
    2. Call him for a price for the same thing on different days and
       get different prices.
    3. Last time I was there (about 4 weeks ago) we did battle.  I went
       to buy Draw 2000 and he tried to charge me 10 bucks more than
       his add in Amiga world.  Actually I think the add said $183 and
       he wanted $195.  We exchanged a few words and I learned that:
    
         - Moe says he makes all his profit on the $7 shipping charge.
           He said most stuff costs him 1-2 bucks to ship and the rest
           is profit.  Therefore, if you come to the showroom he has
           to charge more or he looses money! Right on Moe.  I then
           whipped open HIS copy of Amiga world and pointed out other
           mail order places selling it for $159.  I suggested that
           if he's loosing money at $183, he wasn't a very good business
           man and perhaps should close the doors.  He about asked me
           to leave at that point.  You can see, we hit it off real
           well.
    
         - He also pointed out that his add indicates that defective
           merchandise must be handled with the manufacturer, NOT him.
           I don't know how rigid his policy is in this area but but
           I'm willig to I've got no chance of returning anything.
    
    4. A real turn off was back in Sept when I was out shopping for my
       Amiga. I went to the software shop to learn and get some prices.
       I felt Moe couldn't answer some of the simplest questions about
       the stuff he was selling.  The kicker was that this was a friday
       afternoon and he was setting up an Amiga 2000 system for a guy
       who was coming in from Conn monday morning to pick it up. I turns
       out that this system was the identical configuration to the one
       I wanted and was the last 2000 in stock.  He quoted me an excellent
       price and told me it was on condition that I bought THAT system,
       THAT day.  If I was willing to buy that system, he'd call the
       other guy and tell him that he couldn't get HIS system on monday
       because there were hardware problems and he'd have to wait for
       another.  I politely declined the offer and left.  At the same
       time, I decided that I would not purchase my system from a person
       with those ethics (and I didn't).
    
    Well, I guess I've beat up enough on Moe for one day.
    
    Frank
    

    
    What, offend me?  Nah, the best have tried and given up with chest
    pains...
    
    What you observe about Moe is exactly true.  If Moe were drowing, I'd
    throw him a tire or something that maybe floated a little.  Other than
    that, I have no great affection for the guy.  He still tries to screw
    me in exactly the ways you describe.  He'll quote me a price over the
    phone and then reneg when I get there.
    
    The difference is that Moe becomes quite nervous when I decide to get into
    his face.  He usually gives up and gives me what I want.
    
    I continue to do business with him because it's convenient and I know
    exactly how to handle him.  If you don't like confrontations, you may
    do well to shop around.
    
    Ed.
    

	I had a problem with him when I tried to  "browse"  in the 
employees only area, something funny must go on back there....
I  *_DO_*  have the satisfaction of having never bought anything 
there, I also just don't tell him why not.

re                      <<< Note 2550.16 by LEDS::ACCIARDI >>>
    
>    What you observe about Moe is exactly true.  If Moe were drowing, I'd
>    throw him a tire or something that maybe floated a little.  Other than

	I think if he were drowning, say 100 ft from my boat I might 
toss him a 60 ft line and say,  

	"Hey, I'm meeting you more than half way on this"

    Well, I just ordered my Fat Agnus chip ... should be here in a couple
    days. The price was $112.50 from Merical Computers in Ohio. Their
    number is 513-435-5227. They'll ship COD.
    
    Cheers,
    
    Paul

    
    I just ordered mine from the outfit Paul mentioned in .18.... Nice
    people, they ship next day air COD and accept personal checks.
    
    Ask for Mike Miller.
    
    Ed.

How was it to Install?Anything we need to know about?

						bill

    Re .a_few_back
    
    About Moe, I go there when on training, and it's just like going
    to the Mercado in Acapulco, you MUST haggle to get a good price,
    and I think that if you don't, he then becomes rude and ignores
    you.  A sale can't just be product=cash, it must be discussed, argued
    pleaded, and it's all in good fun.
    
    Jean
    

    
    OK, I got my Fat Aggie installed in about 1/2 hour.  I'm pretty
    fearless when it comes to potentially destroying expensive equipment,
    so for you timid types, here's a few tips on how to do it on an
    A2000/2500; if you toast your machine attempting this yourself, please
    don't hurt me.
    
    1.  While facing the front of the A2000, move jumper J101 to the
    leftmost two pins.  J101 is to the left of the power supply.
    	
    2.  Cut trace J500.  While this sounds scary, J500 is designed
    specifically to be cut.  It is two tiny solder pads connected by a thin
    etch.  A few snicks of an exacto blade will break the bridge.
    
    3.  Remove the old Agnus.  You'll have to remove the disk drive bay
    frame and power supply frame to do this.  There are three screws in
    front and four screws in back that hold in the bay/supply.  You'll also
    do well to remove the cable from your floppy(s) and the main
    motherboard power connector.
    
    Agnus is pretty easy to spot; she's a large square IC labeled 'Fat
    Agnus' directly under the floppy bay.  The socket used is pretty
    unusual, and a special puller should be used to remove Aggie.  However,
    any respectable mechanical engineer can fabricate whatever tools are
    needed for any task from paper clips, tape and super glue.  In this
    case, I took a standard paper clip and straightened it out.  I then
    bent a 1/8" right angle 'hook' on one end.  The socket is relieved on
    two diagonal corners.  I worked the paper clip under each corner,
    alternating, until it popped free.  The socket itself seems pretty
    fragile, and if you break it you'll curse your parents for giving birth
    to you.
    
    Oh yeah, turn off the computer before you attempt this :^)
    
    Avail now reports 925K of luscious CHIP ram free.  Yum.
    
    Problems:  I now seem to have a slight color convergence problem that I
    never had before.  My Workbench colors are set up ala Macintosh; black
    text on a light gray background.  The black letters seem to have a
    slight red tint in some areas, and the mouse pointer flickers
    occasionally.  I suspect that my FlickerFixer board isn't seated
    properly, so I won't panic yet.  Just in case panic IS in order, does
    Agnus control any display attributes that could affect color
    convergence?
    
    Ed.
    
    

    I echo Ed's experience, although it only took me 16 minutes to install
    from removing the first screw on the 2000 case to tightening the
    last. I used a tiny jeweler's screwdriver to CAREFULLY pry up the
    two pryable corners of the chip. With one corner up, prying the
    opposite corner caused the chip to literally pop up like toast.
    
    The chip goes in only one way - there is an angled corner on both
    the chip and the socket.
    
    All that chip stuff is great!
    
    I have not noticed any convergence problem. MachII shows 951 kbytes
    of CHIP memory now!
    
    BTW, Merical Computers and Software shipped UPS Blue .. total was
    $115.xx. Cheaper than Memory Location and System Eyes.

    
    As it turns out, there was no need to panic about my color convergence
    problem with the new Aggie.  I just adjusted the little trimpot on the
    FlickerFixer and it cleaned right up.
    
    Apparently all these delicate electronical widgets have enough
    tolerance variation that they need a little nudge to work together.
    
    Ed.
    

    I take it that the Agnus chip can not be installed on an  A1000.
    True?
    
    ... Rich

    
    Currently, no.  I'd bet anything (since I have nothing) that within a
    few months you'll see an adaptor board from a third party.  Be prepared
    to do a fair amount of cutting and soldering.
    
    Ed.

    RE: .25

    There are some people working on the A1000 Fat Agnus Project. I
    am sure you'll see something available soon.
    
    
    Since installing my Fat Aggie, I have found that Whap! V1.7 freezes
    after logging off CIS. Very strange ... I haven't been able to pin
    it down. No other problems. I have actually run Pro Page, Pro Draw,
    and DP III simultaneously with 140 Kbytes of chip mem remaining.

    I just recieved my new Agnus chip from Merical. Ordered and arrived
    last week. Just picked it up today... I wasn't home when UPS tried
    to deliver, my sister was and had UPS redirect to my office. With
    6 buildings spread accross a few miles it was tough to track it
    down. Sometimes sisters are great to have around and then sometimes
    not. Like when she put engine oil in her automatic tranny...
    
    Will install tonight.
    Renis

    Gee .. I should get a commission from Merical!

I called Merical today. They're fresh outa stock on Agnus. They expect more
"any day now"

John

    
    Merical must have got more back in stock. I found the UPS package
    in the front door when I got home today. - I almost forgot that I left
    my name with them. Really nice folks !
    
    As soon as I finish this note I'll find out how it works in
    a 500.
    

    
    
    	Half way there... The new Agnus is installed but there is no
    obvious correlaton between the 2000's j500 and j501.
    The 500 and 2000 are very different animals. For now I have
    the new Agnus with the old chip ram.
    
    Does anyone know what needs to be changed in the 500 ?
    
    If not can someone check the prints in the 2000 intro book and
    get the signal names that are associated with J500 and J501.
    I suspect that Address bit 20 and EXRAM are involved.
               
    Meanwhile I poke around on compuserve and see if anythings posted.
    Once I get it figured out I'll post the full procedure.
     
    
    Thanks much
    
    Brien

    Yeah .. there is more to setting up a 500 for the new chip than
    the 2000. I suggest contacting a dealer and finding out. The folks
    at Merical can tell you on the phone. You will have to do some
    soldering.
    
    Paul

	

	Many thanks to Mike Miller at Merical for coming down off the roof
	where he was working on the Air conditioning, to explain the procedure
 	to me.  I will buy from them again !!!

	Brien

	The procedure follows...  ( took longer to type than do )


	
	Amiga 500 Fatter (Obese) Agnus install procedure

    Tools : X-acto Knife, soldering iron , Needle nose pliers,

	    Spline wrench, ( you know..one of those star shaped deals 
	    that GM uses to make it impossible to change a Headlight.) 
	    - a ball tip hex wrenchball works just as well.
	
	    Something to pull the Agnus chip with. A jewelers screwdriver
	    or Ed's paperclips, or what I used, an old teletype springhook
	    tool that has been in my toolkit forever but never used.

	    Solder and a short piece of light gauge wire (#28 or so)

     Time: 20 minutes plus however long it takes to get up the nerve
	   to pop the old Aggie and Slice two etches.

     Procedure:

	After disconnecting everything, and setting the 500 on a static mat...

     1. Remove the A500 cover. It is held on with 6 spline screws, three front 
	and three rear.
	    
     2. disconnect and remove keyboard. There is a ground braid going to the 
        floppy and the main keyboard cable plugs int the motherboard thru the 
        shield. the cable is not keyed - note the orientation, there may be 
	a black dot on one side.

     3. Remove shielding (two pieces). Bend back six fold over tabs and
	and four more spline screws. Two screws are at the front of the large
	shield. The other two are on the left side by the expansion port.

     4. Locate and remove the old Agnus. she is easy to spot - one of a 
	kind square chip ( and it's labeled). Removal is tricky, work
	slowly from the two relieved sides and pry it up. NOTE orientation
	of the chip. Beveled edge is pin 1.

     5. Install new Agnus. If you want to verify that your new chip is
	not DOA - you can reassemble and test it before making any cuts.
	It should work exactly as before.

     6. locate Jumper pad 2  (JP2) - it is beetween the 68000 and the Rom
	The 68000 is the chip closest to the left expansion port.
	JP2 has 3 solder pads. CUT the trace between the lower pad and the
	center pad. Solder a short jumper between  the upper pad and the 
	center pad.

     7. Locate The A501 memory expansion connector ( right side).
	Pin 1 is the leftmost pin toward the front. Pin 2 is the right
	pin. Count up to pin 41. to the left of pin 41 is a plated

 	though hole. The etch that runs from this hole to pin 32
	of the Gary Chip is -EXRAM.  CUT this trace .OR. carefully
	lift Gary Out of it's socket and bend pin 32 slightly so that
	it will not reseat back in the connector.
  

      8. Put it all back together.
  

    If the guy at the hardware store looks confused when you ask him 
    for a spline wrench, ask him for a screwdriver with a Torx 10 tip
    instead.  I got mine at Sears.

    - Cliff

 re .-1  TORX .. that's it. I couldn't remember that for anything the other
                 night.


	Unfortunately I have come across a major compatability problem with
 my 1 meg 500.
     Now that 100% of the mem is chip ram  DELUXE PAINT III
will not allow me to select anything in the ANIM menu. Also when
DPAINT boots up it always comes up in SWAP mode and never allows
you to select  SWAP/LOAD ALL. 

	I wired up a switch to allow me to run in 512 chip mode or 1meg
chip mode, and the problem is consistent. 

	I don't know if > 1 meg systems have a problem or not. Apparently
DPAINT sees   0  fast mem and tries to conserve. I will give EA a call
today and see what they know.


Brien  
    
     I guess this is a good time to consider a memory upgrade ...
    

    
    
     EA has verified the compatability problem with the obese Agnus
    and 1 meg system. On startup Dpaint check the available fast ram
    and if it is 0 , Dpaint assumes a 512k system and disables features
    like Animation in order to conserve memory. 
    
    EA plans on "addressing" this problem and if you call the help desk
    you can request to be notified when a fix is available.
    
     EA's number is  (415) 572-2787
    
    Brien
    

Never thought I would be happy to have a V3.9 motherboard in my B2000 but I 
didn't have to cut any traces to put in the FAT AGNUS. Everything had the 
jumper plugs. Considerably less mysterious crashes caused by running too many 
graphics intensive programs at the same time. 

Didn't I hear about other chip upgrades available a while back?

	Dick

    
    I installed the Fat lady last night.  Got her at Omnitek for $119.00
    (plus MA tax in Tewksbury, no tax in Salem, NH).  Everything seems to 
    be working correctly (>900K of chip ram), but I did notice something
    as I first turned the system on that surprised me.  With the hard
    disk and memory board removed I booted the plain vanilla 2000 with
    1 Mb of memory.  I booted from a blank INSTALLed floppy.  The avail
    command showed that 111K of memory was consumed!!!  Is this correct?
    The only thing on the system was two floppy drives.  I think I
    remember booting my A1000 with two floppys and having only about 60K
    consumed.  Like I said everything seems to be working fine.  I'm
    just wondering if maybe I didn't get J500 completely cut and this is
    making some memory inaccessible.  Or maybe something to do with the
    Fat lady consumes more memory???
    
    regards,
    
    steve

    
    Maybe you're allocating some memory for the AddBuffers command?
    
    Ed.

    Re: .39
    
    Nah, sounds rather normal to me.
    WB screen ~ 32 KB
    each drive ~ 21 KB
    various minimal OS processes, buffers, etc. (even menuitems) 
    will cause the rest. No need to panic.
    
    Regards,
    
    <CB>
    

Installation tips:

Do not try to pry the old Agnus chip out.  You will break the 
socket.  The dealer said that they have had several reports of 
this happening.  If the socket cracks, you are in big 
trouble...and chances are, it will crack.  Instead, remove the 
mother board (a little more work, but worth it) and push the chip 
out from behind.  There are two holes in the board under Agnus 
that allow you to do this.

As for bending out pin 32 on the other chip (I forgot what its 
called), I had no idea which pin it was, so I cut J500 instead. 
It also took me a while to find the jumper J101.  A simple 
scratch with a small screwdriver took care of that.

I was amazed to find that my old Agnus chip had been damaged at
the factory.  The corner of the chip had been broken off and
glued back into place. 

The chip is in and works fine.  Now I just need more RAM.  1 meg 
just isn't enough...


Randy

That should read:


>As for bending out pin 32 on the other chip (I forgot what its 
>called), I had no idea which pin it was, so I cut J500 instead. 
>A simple scratch with a small screwdriver took care of that.
>It also took me a while to find the jumper J101. 

Is it safe to assume that Commodore won't release another version of Agnus
when the rest of the ECS and WB 1.4 becomes available?   I'm waiting until
I can order some more fast ram before I get the new Agnus, but I want to
be sure it is THE one I want.  Also, do you expect them to offer the other
chips separately or as a set?  (I know a new Denise is coming - is there a
new Paula too?)

Thanks,


...richard_the_penny_pincher_with_a_Hardframe_but_still_1.2_ROMs

    Re: .44
    
    While there are still some undocumented features in the current
    "Super" Agnus, I wouldn't hold my breath for a new version. The
    rest of the ECS will definitivly _not_ require one, anyway.
    I bet that they'll offer the chips seperatly, but I'd guess that
    the "complete package" will be cheaper than the sum of the single
    parts. 
    There are no plans for a new Paula at this time I know of...
    
    Regards,
    
    <CB> 

    Out user group negotiated a special price for Fat-agnus, installed, at
    a local dealer.
    
    When I took my A500 in, the dealer said I had a REV 3 motherboard - and
    that they had no idea how to install Fat Agnus in a machine "that old".
    They told me that Commodore would take weeks to get them an answer, and
    I should try coming back in about 3 weeks!  I'm NOT a patient person,
    so I called Commodore myself and got the answers while still standing
    in the store.  To save YOU the cost of a phone call, if you want to
    install Fat Agnus on a Rev 3 motherboard:
    	-follow the instructions of note 2550.34
    	-additional steps are:
    		-cut trace to pin 52 of 68000
    		-connect pin 47 of 68000 to pin 59 of Agnus
    
    Cheers,
    Dave W
    
    P.S. - Three weeks they wanted me to wait!  You can get to the moon and
    back in less time than that!

    Well, I attempted to install my 'Fatter' Agnus last night.  
    In keeping with the rest of my week, I had no luck at all.  I 
    first attempted to pry the 'fat lady' out with a bent paperclip.
    Then I removed the entire motherboard and tried to push it out 
    from behind.  No luck there either, I believe that Commodore
    super-glued that chip in. 
    
    Does anyone have a suggestion for me, other than spray silicon :^),
    or taking it to a dealer $$ ?  At least my Rev 4.4 motherboard
    has a jumper on J500, so there's no cutting involved.
    
    ~Steve - maybe I'll just wait for the ECS, if that ever shows up.

The only way is to push it out from behind.  You really have to 
push hard, it will pop out.  Do not try to pry it out, you will 
crack the holder...and this will cause serious problems later.

There might be some kind of 'puller' but I was unable to get 
anything to work.  I wound up pushing it out.

Randy

    Yes there are PLCC chip pullers.  They have prongs that fit in the
    slots in the corners of the sockets.
    Tom

    Anyone know where I can find a Fatter Agnus for sale.  I've called my
    usual dealers(Safe Harbor, Abel, Light Speed) and there are none to be
    found.  They all say call back in a week or so...
    
    md

    All the places you named are mail order houses. I had to go to an
    actual dealer to get mine.