Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    While I admit having pirate copies of some softwares, I finaly ended
    up buying the ones that were worth it, not only for the docs, which
    I did have, but because the author deserved acknoledgement of his
    efforts.  Others I tried and then erased because they were worthless.
     
    It is more of a crime to have people pay for junky software that
    is billed as being good.  Sometimes the best ones have just "plain
    brown wrappers" whereas the junky ones spend more on ads than on
    the actual software!
    
    Jean
    
    PS I live in Canada so those bills don't apply here, but the intent
    of what they are trying to do is not too democratic and THAT would
    tend to cross the border.
    

    Sounds like the fundamentalists so often talked about in SOAPBOX
    are at it again.......
    
    Theres one in every bunch - a champion prepared to crush the rights
    of the little folk in order to make sure the big boys get the profits
    after all...its the big boys that make big campaign contributions
    right???
    
    but it will inevitably backfire...
    
    a sad situation...
    
    re .-1
    
    I have done exactly the same thing - I also purchase quality programs
    while erasing the junk....The only other copies I have made are
    legally permitted (for my personal only) as backups...since some
    of the business/professional stuff is expensive ($800 for superbase
    pro) its for the best anyway...

    I totally agree with you.....
    
    Phil
    

    If you wish to register an opinion on this bill, you can reach the
    New Hampshire senators' offices at these numbers:
    
    	Gordon Humphrey	800-852-3714
    	Warren Rudman	202-224-3324
    
    Just call and say you wish, for example, to oppose the bill, and give
    them your name and address.
    
    
    				-- edp

    We seem to be forgetting "THE BIG BOYS" are the ones writing the
    software,and also a large amount of "very small guys".If a person
    creates,and distributes software he is entitled to profit from his
    venture.When it comes to copying software outside the limits of
    the copyright WE HAVE NO RIGHTS.If one feels the cost of a software
    product is to high then he does not have to purchase it.I purchase
    my software from a dealer that is willing to let me try it first,and
    give me a copy of a demo disk when available.But we are getting
    away from the issue.When it comes to renting software here are
    some things to consider.
    	1:is the software you are renting a legal copy,or is IT a copy. 
    	2:is the renter passing out copies to his friends(much like
	    video tapes).
    	3:is the renter allowing access to the software over a computer
	    	network.
    		
    	If the copy is legal,meaning the vender has purchased a copy
    for each one he rents,then as long as it is only being used on one
    computer then the spirit of the copyright is followed.If however
    a package is rented,distributed to a group of people to be used
    by all,and a multiple user fee was not paid,it is wrong even if
    all copies are deleted upon return of the software.I don't feel
    the attitude that is it ok to take what you want just because you
    feel the other person can afford it is acceptable.I have been solicited
    to TRADE my amiga sofware by a member of a local users group,and
    offered software by a friend.The fact remains people will at times
    copy software,and those that develop it have the right to protect
    their investment.I feel the action in note .0 to be extreme,and
    should be addressed,but question why it is being considered in the
    first place. We should realize that those people that get up on
    soapboxs,don't do so until we build the stairs.
    							bill

    re .-1 While I agree with you in principle , the hard facts of life
    show that while software developers continually charge an arm
    and a leg for software, people will breach copyright and illegally
    copy software...
    
    Your suggestion of purchasing from a store willing to let you fire
    up the s/w on one of their machines to review it, is sound in
    circumstances involving software that one can quickly obtain a "feel"
    for. ie: Games etc...This theory falls apart however over complex
    software which requires quite a bit of "reviewing" as such. Such
    software might include Spreadsheets,Dbases,AI software modules etc
    etc etc...how many stores do you know that are willing to let you
    "review" a piece of software for 2-3 hours....? if answer>1 then
    consider yourself very lucky....no shop in this COUNTRY would do
    that...
    
    Basically, while Developers try to rob the little guy blind, and
    the little guy has a good copier and a friend with a program NO
    Political claptrap bill will ever eliminate pirating...it will
    only deny another facility/public service to the honest/innocent
    

The following is a copy of related material I earlier submitted to another
    note in this conference...
    
                 <<< BOMBE::DISK_NOTES$LIBRARY:[000000]AMIGA.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< AMIGA NOTES >-
================================================================================
Note 2305.3                      Copy Protection                          3 of 9
NZOV01::MCKENZIE "Nuke the Leprechaun!"              45 lines   2-MAR-1989 15:54
                             -< My impressions... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ok  sportsfans! heres an item that might interest you...
    
    For years the "viscious-circle" syndrome involving copy-protection
    schemes has been battled out!
    
    Software Developers claim that Pirates are the reason for
    copy-protection schemes and the high software prices! Software
    developers say that if everyone honestly purchased their products
    the prices would come down....
    
    Pirates claim That the reason they pirate software is that its so
    damn expensive to purchase. (I tend to support this argument - I
    would have NO qualms about spending $30 on a game but $120 to me
    just aint worth it!) Pirates say that when software prices are reduced
    to what the general consumer would regard as reasonable then Pirating
    will stop - It's a simply matter of economics. Why spend
    X+++ hours cracking a disk that you could buy for around $30?
    
    When I look at how this circle has evolved (developers writing smarter
    protection schemes - hackers/pirates cracking them) I realise that
    the only people REALLY making money are those who write the fancy
    copy programmes to beat the "protection racket" (no pun intended)
    
    Developer have even had the gall to blame prices on import
    duties/retail markups etc etc etc...while this is partially
    true its not the whole truth by any stretch of the imagination!
    
    But the final circle-breaking proof is this; Last year a software
    retailer near where my Father lives in Tauranga,New Zealand was
    stocking games for the Amiga at $25 each. AND HE COULD NOT KEEP
    UP WITH THE DEMAND FOR THESE GAMES. The games on his shelves that
    were around the $100 mark are still there - or so I'm told!
    
    So thats it - The day developers start being realistic is the day
    they will stop the bulk of the pirating trade.
    
    Comments folks??
    
    Phil
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I suspect it is true that when software prices fall far enough, nobody
    will be interested in pirating software.  Consider paperback books:
    nobody is interested in pirating them, even though photocopy machines
    are readily available.
    
    It bothers me, however, that only programs that can sell at media cost
    will be produced.  It is currently hard to get a book published that
    won't be extremely popular, and I fear that software will go the same
    way.  That will eliminate software which costs a lot to develop, yet appeals
    only to a limited market.
    
    Hardware prices are coming down, and will continue to fall because of
    competition.  Software can't be priced high enough to cover
    non-recurring costs because of pirating.  So how can a software
    developer make enough revenue to feed himself and continue producing
    new products?  If he can't, maybe computer software will go the way of
    music: unless you are world-class, it is a hobby, and you must find
    something else to do as a "real job".
    
    As a software developer, this trend depresses me, yet I don't see any
    way to stop it.
        John Sauter
                   

    Much of the copy-protection and pirating arguments were hashed over
    in Jerry Pournelle's columns in _Byte_ three or four years ago.
    (Hoo boy, have we strayed from the original topic!)  Pournelle argued
    that reasonably priced software would sell so well that the whole
    piracy/copy-protection cycle would evaporate.
    
    History proves him out.  Remember the Osborne I?  Adam Osborne got rich
    by bundling in software to a reasonably priced package, even though his
    hardware was awful.  Walt Bilofsky's Software Toolworks carved out a
    large niche of the Heath H-89 (CP/M) market with low-priced software,
    even though all of his programs had obvious limitations.  BTW,
    Chessmaster 2000 is a direct descendant of his Mychess program.
    
    More recently, Borland International has proved so popular with
    low-priced compilers for MS-DOS machines that the Turbo products
    have forced down the price of Microsoft products.  Borland originally
    had copy protection, then offered non-protected disks to registered
    owners for $10 or so, then dropped copy protection altogether. 
    At each step, their sales increased.
    
    Much of the manufacturers' talk of "piracy" strikes me as self-serving
    propaganda at odds with verifiable history.
    
    Wes

    RE .6
    	I think it would be great if we could bring down the cost of
    software somehow.However much of the better software being produced
    probably cost considerable $$$$$ to develop,and,AND support.I am
    looking at my mail box waiting for an upgrade to a program,and I
    noticed several listings stateing the same.If the product performs
    well,and you use it daily for a reasonably long period of time,and
    in some instances make a profit using it then  200-400+ while expensive
    is not unreasonable.I own Lattice C,Professional Page,and several
    other programs by Gold Disk.Some came hard(steep price),but I would
    do it again without regrets.I seem to see a lower average price
    coming out of Gold Disk as of late.They don't do it all with their
    software,but what is advertised.If i need more I'll have to spend
    more.We as users need to look at or needs,and then buy accordingly.
    Much of the top end software is being aimed at the professional.Lets
    face it if you have a business IE:Videos for cable,and can't afford
    the cost of the current software,you really have to take a hard
    look at what you are doing.I do my part by not stealing software,or
    giving software thats all I can do.If we all did this then it may
    make a difference.I don't know!The cost of development back when
    this all started(cost to much I'll steal it)may have been justified,
    maybe now it can be lowered.As for games I feel that some take a
    lot to do and let them ask what they want.I just bought Operation
    Wolf for 29.00.I saw it at the arcade and tried it.It was better
    but at .50 a wack,and I have to go to it It would be impossable
    for me to ever play it.YOU don't really NEED to buy a game,like
    everything else in life "What's it worth to you".If it is to expensive
    and one needs to steal it they have a much larger problem to deal
    with than the cost of software.It,s not a matter of What,s fair
    it's a matter of RIGHT,or WRONG.If my son came home with pirated
    software I would take his system away,or next week it may be a bike.
    Look around!Don't you see somthings wrong? 
    								bill

    
    A large part of the problem is that a LOT of expensive software is pure
    garbage, at least on the first release.  I remember paying $150 for
    MaxiPlan (about two years ago) and the first release was so buggy that
    even an Amiga genius couldn't keep it running for more than a minute or
    two.  It was so buggy that it would crash the machine simply by sizing
    a window or clicking a gadget.
    
    ProWrite 1.0 ($99) would throw up an 'out of memory' requestor when
    importing an IFF graphic and then hang.
    
    Turbo Silver 1.0 ($115) came with a manual that appeared to have been
    written by a person with an advanced case of schizophrenia.
    
    The list could go on forever.  Now a lot of these companies are small
    operations and just can't afford to release a perfect product, but what
    guarantee does a consumer have that an expensive product will perform
    as advertised?  NONE!  It took MaxiPlan over two years to become
    stable.  Prowrite 2.0 is fantastic, but took 9 months for release 2.0
    to appear.
    
    Perry Kivolowitz had a great idea a while back to combat unauthorized
    software duplication among casual pirates (ie; folks who would PROBABLY
    buy a package if it performed as advertised).
    
    1.  The software producer guarantees that the product will perform as
        advertised.
    
    2.  The user, if he uses and benefits from the product, agrees to pay
        for it.
    
    For software publishers to expect users to adhere to rule 2, they must
    first begin to practice rule 1.
    
    Ed.

    re .-2
    
    Sounds like you got a pretty good deal on most of your software...I
    am assuming you live in the US which means your games would cost
    me around $45 NZ based on current conversion rates....
    
    IT IS VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO BUY A GAME IN THIS COUNTRY FOR UNDER
    $100 (THATS AROUND $65 US)
    
    If thats not EXTORTION then I dont know What the hell is....

    I agree with your point on games though....people WANT them, they
    dont NEED them and if they arent prepared to buy then they shouldnt
    have them....BUT the same could be said for ANY piece of software
    (just games fall into this category better than most) you dont REALLY
    need a relational dbase when you can write one....right???
    
    Most utilities here are 10 times the price of games, the cheapest
    Utility I ever purchased was kindwords....a reasonable sort of word
    processor - but nothing marvellous! That cost me $250 US...The same
    crowd wanted to sell me Superbase Professional for $600 US!!!
    
    In my opinion NO AMOUNT OF DEVELOPMENT JUSTIFIES THIS
    COST...particularly as Ed said in .-1 when the product that is sold
    to the customer is sub-standard or just plain garbage!
    
    I dont condone Pirating of software...but the day developers start
    putting a reasonable price tag and warranty on their products then
    thats the day Pirating will start to die...if the product, developers
    are marketing is of a high quality and good value for money, it
    will sell...


    Phil

    The last issue of Amigo Times had an article on this very subject
    and cited a disclaimer from a software that went kinda like this
    
    	The producer of this software guarantees that it will come
    	on a black disquette of almost square dimentions.
    
    Now when you buy the product, you don't see this because it is all
    shrink wrapped, if the software is as good as the package suggests,
    then you don't even read the small print.  If on the other hand
    it is a peice of garbage, you are stuck, and you feel that THEY
    have pirated your pocketbook.  
    
    Not all software producers have that much contempt for thier customers,
    but all have disclaimers of one sort or another that leaves you
    holding the bag if the software does not perform as advertised.
    
    Jean
    

    re .11
    I can see how you are caught between a rock,and a hard place.I am
    looking at a mailorder ad for kindwords for $63.00.It appears you
    are the victim of economics in general,more than the software
    companies.If the problem is in the conversion of the money then
    it would seem that even if you came here you would still end up
    paying dearly.I don't know much about this sort of thing.Is it like
    this with all goods from USA.Sorry to get off track,but I was wondering
    if there was a way to lower cost for you.
    							bill

                                101st Congress
                                 1st Session

                                    S. 198

    To amend title 17, United States Code, the Copyright Act to protect
                        certain computer programs.

                         ----------------------------

                      IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

              January 25 (legislative day, January 3), 1989

      Mr. Hatch introduced the following bill; which was read twice and
                referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

                         ----------------------------

                                    A BILL

    To amend title 17, United States Code, the Copyright Act to protect
                        certain computer programs.

         _Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the
    United States of America in Congress assembled,_ That this Act may be
    cited as the "Computer Software Rental Amendments Act of 1989".

         Sec. 2.  Section 109(b) of title 17, United States Code, is
    amended by --

              (1) amending paragraph (1) to read as follows:

         "(b)(1) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a), unless
    authorized by the owners of copyright in the sound recording or the
    owner of copyright in a computer program (including any tape, disk, or
    other medium embodying such program), and in the case of a sound
    recording in the musical works embodied therein, neither the owner of a
    particular phonorecord nor any person in possession of a particular
    copy of a computer program (including any tape, disk, or other medium
    embodying such program), may, for the purposes of direct or indirect
    commercial advantage, dispose of, or authorize disposal of, the
    possession of that phonorecord or computer program (including any tape,
    disk, or other medium embodying such program) by rental, lease, or
    lending, or by any other act or practice in the nature of rental,
    lease, or lending.  Nothing in the preceding sentence shall apply to
    the rental, lease, or lending of a phonorecord for nonprofit purposes
    by a nonprofit library or nonprofit educational institution."; and

               (2) amending paragraph (3) to read as follows:

         "(3) Any person who distributes a phonorecord or a copy of a
    computer program (including any tape, disk, or other medium embodying
    such program) in violation of clause (1) is an infringer of copyright
    under section 501 of this title and is subject to the remedies set
    forth in sections 502, 503, 504, 505, and 509.  Such violation shall
    not be a criminal offense under section 506 or cause such person to be
    subject to the criminal penalties set forth in section 2319 of title
    18.".

    re: .14---Thanks for posting the text of the amendment.
    
    It seems bizarre that, if this amendment passes, you can violate the
    Copyright law without actually copying anything!  The loophole on
    nonprofit libraries is interesting; I wonder what would be required to
    turn every computer store into a nonprofit library (in addition to its
    regular business).
        John Sauter

     If I read it correctly, the library "loophole" is only for
     phonograph records. Not exactly a large concession, that one!
     If libraries can lend only books and phonograph records, they will
     be museums in ten years or so.
     DR

<    authorized by the owners of copyright in the sound recording or the
<    owner of copyright in a computer program (including any tape, disk, or
<    other medium embodying such program), and in the case of a sound

Seems to me that this could be used shut down all the video rental stores.
Any video tape could be modified to include a copy of a copywrited piece of 
software of no value and claim protection under this law. Also what about
VIDEO tapes that are music videos or have soundtrack albums?
-Tom-

    strange that he has no problem with nonprofit organizations lending
    music on a "phonorecord", but tries to prevent software lending on 
    any sort of media.
    
    I wonder how CD-ROMs fit into his scheme.  What if it had both music
    and software?
    
    -Dave