Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    I have never used an Apple ][GS and cannot speak on behalf of it.
    
    The Amiga has a very powerful Coprocessor and Blitter, and four
    audio channels that when used together are quite efficient.  The
    Coprocessor works asynchronously of the MC68000, and has the ability
    to read and write information or commands to all of the system's
    hardware registers.  Thus, the coprocessor can start and stop audio
    without slowing down the main processor.  Also, the coprocessor
    has the ability to control the blitter.  The blitter can do many
    operations on memory while the 68000 does other stuff.  What this
    all means is that the Amiga can play music or sampled sounds while
    the 68000 is free to do other things.  I seriously doubt that the
    Apple has these capabilities.  I assume the Apple's performance
    is quite degraded by producing good quality sound.
    
    Also, the Amiga's has to RCA jacks built into the main system. 
    Each jack is associated with two audio channels which makes it very
    easy to mix sounds.  It is quite easy to play one sampled sound
    into one channel, and another sound into the other channel.  So,
    the Amiga has the capability of playing four different voices through
    a stereo system in hardware.  With a tiny bit of software the Amiga
    can produce many more then four voices.
    
    	--Mike
    
    PS: Does my bias show?
    

    I was once playing a very large (relative to memory size) music
    score through the amiga, when another program I was working on
    decided to crash the machine.  The GURU message stuck its ugly
    face up, but this time, something was quite different.
    
    Although most of the machine was quite intent with flashing
    a red box on the screen with some black and red scribble written
    inside of it, the music continued.
    
    	--Mike
    
    

    
    The IIGS has a fantastic sound chip made by Ensonique, the synthesizer
    company.  It has 16 voices to the Amiga's 4.  The Ensonique chip
    uses oscillators, like the C 64 SID chip.  In fact, they were designed
    by the same fellow, Bonb Yannes.  The Amiga uses D/A converters
    and waveform tables.  
    
    The GS can produce beautiful sounds, but so can the Amiga.  The
    extra voices can be an advantage in some cases, but the Amiga can
    digitize a 100 piece orchestra and play it back in stereo.  Can
    the GS?  I'm not sure.
    
    I'm not up on the GS's sound specs, but the Amiga can perform 16
    bit samples at 16 KHz or 8 bit samples at 32 KHz.  Mr. Nyquist requires
    that the maximum frequency the Amiga can play back is around 15 KHz.
    
    Another thing I read about the GS is that it restricts sound data
    to a small (64 KByte) segment of memory.  Compare this to 512 KBytes
    (soon to be 1 MByte) on the Amiga.  Sampled sounds can get enormous
    pretty quickly, so this isn't a trivial issue.
                                      
    The GS doesn't produce stereo output, but requires an add-on board
    for this feature.  In my opinion, the Amigas stereo output sets
    it head and shoulders above the GS.
    
    What is your application?  The GS has been unofficially declared
    dead by developers.  After 18 months on the market, there are less
    than 100 titles for it's 16 bit mode.  If you're into MIDI, the
    Mac and Atari ST have tons of software.  Dr. T's series is now
    available for the Amiga, also.  This is one of the most respected
    packages around.
    
    The Amiga is an all-around much more capable machine.  There's an
    easy upgrade path to a 68020, 68030, 68***.  Where can the GS go?
    Besides, last time I looked, the prices were absurd for a complete
    system.  Buy an Amiga or an Atari.  If you need something that says
    Apple on it, buy a Mac SE.
    
    Ed.

    re: .3 
    
    The ][GS isn't dead, its just another slow starter like the Amiga was.
    Until there was a large enough potential customer base of 16-bit
    software for it, why should a software company take the risk.
    
    I think there is a lot of untapped potential in that synthesizer
    chip that has been handicapped by brain dead GS limitations like
    memory restrictions and requiring the purchase of a board to get
    stereo output.  But clever software and $40 can get around those
    limitations.  The Amiga D/A is nice and flexible, but it isn't
    a synthesizer.
    
    The real question is how well does the rest of the computer support
    the sound generating hardware.  That is where the Amiga has the
    advantage - coprocessor, multitasking, minimum of 512K memory, 
    stereo output.  Other than the multitasking, I assume a ][GS can
    be setup with the same features.  But remember, that configuration
    is the default Amiga, the configuration the software publishers
    are writing software for.
    
    -dave

    I disagree, Dave.  My brother in law works for Apple (Mac division,
    so he's biased) but he claims that the GS is a big disappointment.
    
    I believe it will suffer the same fate as the C 128.  A very nice
    gesture to the millions of owners of the predecessor machine, but
    really on hold evolution-wise.
    
    Why should a software developer write a GS specific title and sell
    maybe 10 K copies (assuming 100K GSs and 10% penetration) when he
    can make it run on a IIe and sell a million?  How many C128 specific
    titles have you seen?  I bet there's less than 50.
    
    As final evidence of it's lackluster presence, SubLogic isn't doing
    a GS version of Flight Simulator.  If FS isn't available or in the
    works for you computer, then your history.
    
    Ed.

    
    I heard someone say earlier that the amiga can use more then 4 voices.
    How does it do that???
    
    
                                              M.A.H.
    

    re: .5
    
    who runs FSII anymore?  now that F18 is available :-)
    
    I went to the great launch of the GS at computer store in downtown
    Nashua, NH.  Nice posters, demos, etc.  But no customers.
    
    Since then I've been curious to see how a computer with 4096 colors,
    stereo sound, and even slots, would do in the market.  It is a nice
    computer, saddled with the legacy of the Apple II, but with a lot
    more potential than the C128.  Price appears to be the main reason
    it didn't catch on.  And initial lack of availability for the Christmas
    season.  They are selling now, and I've seen some number like 250,000
    claimed for the installed customer base.  Probably a lot of that
    to schools.  I've even met folks who bought one!  Kinda sad, but
    it's a little like meeting folks with their new ibmpc.  They buy 
    because of the name.
    
    To get back to the original topic, see note 409.5 in the
    LNKUGL::Apple_Computers notesfile.  It talks about a design
    problem involving the sound chip that results in noise.
    
    -dave

    
    Dave, by comparing the GS to the 128, I didn't mean to imply that
    they were competitive products.  The 128 is not even in the same
    league.
    
    The GS has some nice hardware in it.  No doubt the Amiga provided
    some inspiration in it's design.  They have a graphics mode thats
    not too different from our HAM.
    
    My only complaints are it's price and the lack of a clear upgrade
    path.  The price can be fixed.
    
    Ed.
    

    Ed, sorry for the confusion, that wasn't the point I was trying
    to make.
    
    I was just trying to point out that the ][GS had a bit more of
    a foot in the 16 bit world than the C128.  Both have the legacy of
    the past dragging them down.  Atari & CBM have sort of hit end-of-life
    on their 8 bit lines, only Apple took the risk of a backwards
    compatible, non 68000 CPU.
    
    I'm real curious to see how far that commitment goes - a downsized
    color MAC could kill the ][GS (if the Amiga 500 doesn't do that)
    
    -Dave
    

    
    Well, we're really getting off track here, but what the hell.. :^)
    
    My Apple insider hints that you might see a color SE (16 colors).
    That would be a real sexy machine.  You'll also see a lower cost
    Mac II with maybe a 68000 and a two or three SE-type slots (not
    Nubus).  Sort of an very-open color SE.
    
    Where does all this leave the GS?  The education market, which Apple
    seems to have a good grip on.
                                           
    By the way, one Australian fellow on Plink claimed that the goverment
    down under had signed up to buy huge quantities of Amiga 500s for the
    school systems.  Apple lost the job.  Can any down under Deccies confirm
    this? 
                     
    Ed.

    I haven't heard anything about Commodore selling lots of 500's to
    the government for schools.
    
    The other thing about Australia is that each state government has
    it's own list of approved computers for school (at least that was
    the way it was a few years ago when I was involved in that market).
    
    I'll have to ask around and see if there has been anything in the
    Industry news recently,
    
    Regards
    	Mike (Adeliade - Australia)