Conference hydra::amiga_v1

Re: .0

>I have spend some extra hours at work because the Amiga
>didn't have decent VT x00 emulation

	You're kidding, right?  

	What are you using for a terminal emulator?  There's Dave Wecker's
VT100, and Mike Leibow's Smokey (VT200) both of which are excelent emulators
if you don't need 132 column mode.  If you do, there's a VT102 emulator floating
around somewhere on the net that even does that.

	Yes, the keyboard isn't like a modern DEC keyboard, but in all the
emulators above, every key on the DEC terminals is mapped to a key on the
Amiga 1000 keyboard.

Mark

    re: .0
    
    If you already have an ST, why did you buy the Amiga?  Just curious.
    
    The ST had a head start on getting a user base large enough to justify
    volume discounting of software and hardware.  The Amiga market is
    just now getting to that point.
    
    Where have you been looking for cheap software/hardware for the
    Amiga?  And what business type software are you looking for? 
    
    -dave

    What specifically are you looking for?  I bet there's a pretty good
    Amiga equivalent to any ST package, except maybe in the MIDI area and
    of course, Whack!.
                                                     
    We got WordPerfect, and a Lotus clone (plus another 8 or 9
    spreadsheets) and eleventy-nine terminal packages.  At last count,
    almost 1000 commercial packages, ranging from hideous to mind-boggling.
    
    Just ask.
    

    I'll relieve you of your A1000 for the original purchase price ($300)
    The Computer Blue book lists the value at $400, but I have to consider
    the number of previous owners.

    I guess what I liked about my ST terminal emulator was the fact
    that I was able to use all of the "gold key" functions as well as
    132 column mode and double height/double width characters. Perhaps
    the terminal software I am using (Online) is inadquate.
    
    Other software I am looking for is a good spreadsheet software for
    under $75.  I was looking for something like "SwiftCalc ST" for the 
    Amiga.  I like "Maxiplan", however, that runs about $200.  I would
    like to also find something equilvalent to "GFA BASIC" (about $45)
    for the Amiga.
    
    In the mean time, I would like to know more about some of the various
    terminal emulator available for the Amiga; I may be forced to keep
    it because I may not be able to afford an a new ST after selling
    my Amiga.
    
    p.s.
    
    I offered to do a "straight trade" with a friend who has an Atari
    520 ST with a monochrome monitor;  He declined my offer.
    
    Joe H.
     

    No wonder you're dissapointed; Online! is a pretty bogus VT emulator.
    There is a 132 column version of Dave Weckers'VT100 program available
    in the public domain.  It includes a nice 132 column font, xmodem,
    kermit, etc.
    
    Don't let list prices fool you, either.  Search by 'dir/title=ABEL'
    for the Abel Supply price list.  His prices are just 5% over wholesale.
    If Maxiplan is still a bit rich for your blood, you might check
    out Analyze! or VIP Professional.  However, I am a maxiPlan user,
    and you get what you pay for.  The first umpteen releases were very
    buggy, but version 1.8 is awesome.  It has virtually every feature
    you could ever dream of, and a few that I've never seen before.
    
    Bear in mind when you compare prices that most Amiga software has
    some built-in features that aren't available on the ST, like the
    the ability to multitask with other programs.  Also, I believe that
    in general, it is more difficult to write a great program for the
    Amiga than it is to write a great program for the ST.  As a result,
    it's apt to cost a bit more.
    
    Don't give up until you've given it some more effort.  Software
    isn't going to come and announce it's presence to you; you have
    to go look for it.  If there's any special goody that you've heard
    of or need, just ask.  If its not on the DEC e-net, someone may
    aleady have it for uploading. 
    
    Hang in there.  
    
    Ed.
    
    

You might also look for the notes in here comparing Amiga and Atari ST.

    Actually, if your primary needs are for a terminal, the ST probably
    wins hands down.  With a monochrome 400 line non-interlaced display,
    and Whack! and Uniterm, you've got a combination that can't be matched
    by the Amiga.
    
    I'm as biased as they come, but if all I really wanted was a cheap
    fast home terminal, I'd probably pick up a mono ST.

    For the most all around fun per cubic inch, stick with the Amiga
    a bit longer.

    RE: .8
    
    I've always valued the comments of the previous notes' author. 
    But really,  The A500 (~$500) with a high presist mono ($129 Hypertek)
    with improvements rumored with release 1.3 (400 line non-interlaced
    display) and chip upgrades should really stop comparison shopping.
    
    The only thing I see missing from Amiga is the MAC emulator.  I
    placed the purchase offer earlier to test the veracity of the notes
    author (1073.0).

    Woops... the title to 1073.9 is wrong, I meant <If you had read
     note 1056>

Re: .5

>    Other software I am looking for is a good spreadsheet software for
>    under $75.  I was looking for something like "SwiftCalc ST" for the 
>    Amiga.  I like "Maxiplan", however, that runs about $200.  I would
>    like to also find something equilvalent to "GFA BASIC" (about $45)
>    for the Amiga.

I just read a review of an inexpensive spreadsheet for the Amiga in
Amazing Computing.  It sounded like just the thing for home use, and
had a nice menu-driven interface.  Its name was something like Hicalc,
and its full retail price was only about $50.

It is sort of unfair to compare complain about the price of Maxiplan.
Maxiplan is a everything you need spreadsheet in a class with 1-2-3
and Excel (it is closer to Excel in flavor).  Those programs go for
big bucks.

About the keypad:  I see your point.  It is not convenient to use remapped
keypad where PF1-PF4 are the function keys above the main typing area.
In fact, I can see how it might drive someone accustomed to a DEC
editor nuts.  I guess I never really noticed because DEC's keypad editors
drive me nuts, so I use Emacs.

There is a hardware solution there.  The Amiga 1000 and Amiga 2000
have electronically compatible keyboards, so you could buy a
replacement Amiga 2000 keyboard for your 1000 (about $90), but you
would have to make a small adapter plug because the jacks are not
the same.  Also, I believe that the 2000 keyboards are in short supply
right now.

The DEC internal VT200 emulator handles double height and double width
characters just fine.  I don't remember whether it handles 132 mode.

    Well, I really did mean what I said in .8.  After all, you can buy
    a mono 520ST for around $450 mail order.  That's pretty tough to
    beat.  And if all you wanted was a nice terminal platform, what
    the heck.
    
    In all other regards, I wouldn't trade my Amiga for anything.  I
    hope as much as anyone that Commodore can release a new non-interlaced
    400 line Denise chip, but until it really happens, it's just vapor.
    I also haven't seen or heard of the mono long-pers. monitor mentioned
    in the previous note, although there's no technical reason why you
    couldn't hook one up.
    
    If CBM does make a new Denise chip available, I promise you'll hear
    no more Atari endorsements from me.  :^)
    
    Ed.
    

    Won't a new Denise chip have to accomodate something like 500+ lines
    in order to display an overscan picture correctly if it's not
    interlaced?
        
        mitch

Regarding .9 and .12, remember that the hardware isn't everything.  Even if
you got all that nice high resolution monochrome hardware for the Amiga, as
far as I know, nothing remotely like "Whack" is available (yet) for the Amiga.

("Whack" on the Atari-ST gives you multiple sessions on your vax in multiple
VT220 emulator windows over a single modem connection using SSU host software.)

Re: .14

>nothing remotely like "Whack" is available (yet) for the Amiga.
					     ^^^

	So, when are you doing the port?  :-)

Mark

Re: .14

We are all waiting eagerly for Mike Leibow to come back from school so we can
have all of those good things.  (Mike - I presume you are still here, at least
in spirit.)

	Paul

    Here are some final thoughts on my situation with my Amiga system...
    
    First I would like to say that everyone who replied to my note
    has been very helpful and I thank you all for your suggestions.
    
    One person wanted to know why I "got rid" of my Atari 1040 and bought
    a used Amiga 1000.  Well, I never really got rid of my 1040ST; My
    mother needed a machine which provided word processing, spreadsheet,
    and educational software. (specifically Algebra, Trig, and Geometry)
    I felt the Amiga would be a bargain at $300, so I bought it and
    used it for about a month in order to decide which machine (Amiga
    or Atari) my mother would get.  The ease of use of the Atari and 
    availability of inexpensive educational software made it an easy 
    choice; Mom would get the Atari and I would get the Amiga.
    
    I guess where I really went wrong with the Amiga was underestimating
    the cost ownership of the system.  I was expecting to pay about $120
    to upgrade my Amiga to 1 meg;  I envisioned paying no more than
    $70 or $80 for high quality productivity software; I thought I would
    be able to spend about $600 for a 20MB hard and controller.  I began
    to realize that the long term costs of the Amiga 1000 are some what
    greater than an Atari.
    
    Another concern I have with the Amiga 1000 is that of long term support
    of the machine by third party vendors.  Looking through the Amiga
    magazines, much of the new hardware seems to be aimed at the 500/2000
    series machine and not the 1000.  I wonder if I would have been
    better off buying an A500 just for future support.
    
    Finally I found that my A1000 keyboard was incompatible with a "VT
    like" machine.  This is not a large problem, however it is another
    factor pushing me back toward Atari.
    
    In my current situation I left with 3 possible solutions:
    
    1. Sell my Amiga and get another Atari
    
    2. Switch machines with my mother and "wait" for decent educational
    software
    
    3. Keep my Amiga and purchase a cheap VT100 terminal for home.
    
    If I can sell my Amiga and new monitor for $750 - $800, I will buy
    another Atari, otherwise option 3 looks the best.  Tonight I will
    try to use xmodem to download the Amiga VT100 emulator so I can
    give my Amiga a fair evaluation.
    
    Joe H.
                     

    I'll agree with you that expanding an Amiga is still a fairly expensive
    proposition, but I think that there is currently far more A1000
    hardware available than A500/A2000 hardware.  Lots of product
    announcements for the new machines, but not much actually shipping.
    The emphasis will surely fall on the new machines soon.  At that
    time, I expect A1000 hardware prices will plummet as people try
    to get rid of the stuff.
    
    The A1000 IS an orphaned machine in that it is no longer manufactured.
    But there are about 250,000 machines floating around.  I am not
    worried in the least about upgrading to a 2000.  I have 2.5 megs
    and a 20 meg hard drive, so my setup is pretty functional.
                            
    As far as prices go, you can get a nice 20 meg SCSI drive for $723
    from Abel Supply.  The same company makes a 1 meg RAM board that
    inserts in the SCSI adaptor for $345.  For $1068, you could have
    a pretty nice setup.
    
    I don't want to suggest that you rush out and spend the money if
    you're unsure, but the Amiga becomes pretty awesome with expanded
    memory and a hard drive.  A base 512K system is really pretty marginal
    for the power user.  
    
    I'll extend my standard offer to you; I'll send you a disk with
    some essential Amiga utilities and a few naked girls to help get
    you started.  
    
    

    re. .18 ...
    
    Since I had no luck down loading the VT100 emulator from my VAX
    using XMODEM, I will take you up on your offer.  My mail stop is
    RCO.  Since you seem to have such convictions about your machine,
    I will hold off on selling my Amiga until I at least evaluate the
    VT 100 software.
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Joe H.
               
    

    Actually, my convictions have nothing to do with it...  I know two
    individuals who made a switch from the Atari to the Amiga.
    
    It was painful at first; they both thought that the ST had an easier
    user interface, and better application software and even better
    PD software.  One of them is now totally pro-Amiga.  The other felt
    that it was a much superior piece of hardware, but I still don't
    know if he's comfortable with it yet.
    
    Unfortunately, you have to spend some pretty big bucks to really
    take advantage of the Amiga's features, especially on the A1000
    where memory expansion ain't cheap.
    
    The other way of looking at it is in terms of future support.  I
    think Commodore has been much better at providing technical support
    and software upgrades than Atari has.  We've already had two major
    improvements to the OS, and a third is expected soon.
    
    

RE: .0 
  > I know I will miss the fun of such "time killers" as "Marble Madness",
  > "Fightpower" and "Test Drive", ...

Aren't all these available on the ST?  I have Marble Madness for the ST, 
and I think I've seen Test Drive at Compuclub.