Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    1. first thing is you have to learn is how to spell it correctly...
       AMIGA  not AMEGA
    
    2. There are many notes in this notesfile that describe the 
       Transformer, the AMIGA 2000 with a Bridgeboard, and the Sidecar.
       
       The Transformer is a software emulator that emulates an ibmpc
    with an MDA adapter (monochrome text only).  Speed depends on how
    much emulation it has to do, is slower than a 4Mhz ibmpc.  There
    may be a better version coming soon - the Amiga 500 has ibmpc-style
    labels on the side of the keypad.
    
    The Amiga 2000 comes with Amiga expansion bus/slots and ibmpc AT
    bus/slots.  To use the ibmpc bus you need to buy a Bridgeboard,
    which is a 512K ibmpc on a card (also comes with 5.25" disk drive).
    I believe the pc-XT version of the Bridgeboard is currently available,
    the pc-AT version available sometime soon.
    
    The Sidecar is an expansion for the Amiga 1000 that provides the
    basic functionality of the Bridgeboard + bus + 5.25" drive.
    
    The Bridgeboard/Sidecar are treated as just another application
    by the Amiga OS.  They do MDA and CGA emulation in windows or
    on a custom screen on the normal Amiga display.  For EGA, VGA, etc.
    you will need to get a graphics card and and separate monitor.
    
    The idea is not to run the Amiga as a clone but simply to provide
    access to the ibmpc world, without taking up room on your desk for a clone.
    
    After you see what an Amiga can do, the ibmpc just seems so... depressing.
    
    -Dave

Re .1
	My apology, I should have known better about the spelling.  I have a 
1080 AMIGA monitor sitting on my desk at home attached to my 128.  In spite 
of that, I got the spelling wrong.

	Before I asked, I did a search in the file on CGA and came up with no 
solid information on what Transformer, Sidecar or the Bridge did in the 
graphics realm.  There are something like 5000 entries in this conference and 
I have read about 1/3 of them in addition to searching for specific answers.  
Asking someone to read them all is a little unreasonable.  (I do intend to 
read them, but that is slightly irrational behavior on my part.)

	To summarize your answers, the Transformer provides only text 
compatibility (in other words, the same level of PC compatibility available 
on the Rainbow) while the Sidecar and Bridge provide CGA emulation (not quite 
as good as a VAXmate).

	I also know that an AMIGA is not a clone.  It should be better than a 
clone with its better graphics and multi-tasking operating system.  
Unfortunately, there is more software easily available for the clones than 
there is for the AMIGA and a computer without software is about as useful as 
a 50 pound paperweight.

	I have seen what an AMIGA can do.  That is why I want one.  I have 
also seen what the PCs can do and I want one of those also.  I am looking for 
a way to have both on a budget that can not really afford either.

	I think I can answer parts of the questions now -

   1)	If I get an AMIGA 500, the best available at the present is 
	Transformer which provides minimal compatibility.

	If I get a 1000, the Sidecar is available and provides CGA level 
	emulation.

	If I get a 2000, the Bridge card can be added to provide CGA level 
	emulation.

	Still no price information.  Also no information on adding an EGA or 
	HGA card to the 1000 or 2000.

	Additional question - how good is the CGA emulation?  Is is good
	enough to run programs that try to bypass the DOS and use the
	hardware directly?

	Max,
	Prices as subject to local market( as well as availability).
	Current prices in Italy ( in US they should be a little lower)
	are:
		- A500		 700$	(W/o monitor)
		-A2000		2000$	with monitor, 2nd drive 1.5MB
		-Bridge		 800$	with 5" drive 512KB
	EGA is available at usual price ( you need to by the board). 
	If you put an EGA card you maust also add an extra monitor.
	All the options available for PCs are good for Amy-PC.
	CGA works well( you can use 4 colors of YOUR choice). Everything used 
	up to now hasn't showed incompatibility problems ( I'm a casual user 
	also  if I have it) 
	I do not suggest Transformer. It's like practicing in a golf sand trap 
	to get acquainted for a Sahara crossing trip! You may get the wrong 
	impression !
	But if you really want a PC, why ( pls, everybody forgive me for what 
	I'm going to say ) don't you consider a PC close, such as an Epson,
	PC-AT 14MHz, with 20MB for <3000$ ? 10 times faster, at least !
	ciao.
	marco

Re .3:

	Thank you.  It looks like I would need about $2,500 to get the system 
I want.  The one thing I do not need is another monitor so no EGA card.  Not 
much of a loss since most PC software I have seen works on a CGA.

	I don't really want a PC with its second rate operating system.  I
want the wide variety the application software and games easily available on
the PC.  The AMIGA has the hardware and operating system I appreciate but I
do not have ready access to the applications I would like for an AMIGA. 

    Just out of curiosity, what kind of application are you looking
    for?  You may be surprised at how much Amiga software has become
    available as late.  Over 700 titles as of a few months ago, with
    more arriving every day.
    

    I have the same problem: I like the Amiga's graphics and operating
    system, but the PC has more of the kind of application software
    that I want.  I bought an Amiga 2000 with the bridge card.  I haven't
    had a chance to try it yet; my dealer is still waiting for it to
    come in!
        John Sauter

    Re: .6
    
    John, the Software Shop in Worcester had a half-dozen Bridge cards
    when I was in there this past Saturday.
    
    Ed.
    

    I've already paid for the card, so I don't feel like buying another.
    Anyhow, I'm not in that much hurry--I haven't finished exploring
    the Amiga-native applications yet!
        John Sauter

    
    some other thoughts to consider:
    
    o Commodore is coming out with an AT bridgeboard and also a 
      Turbo XT bridgeboard.  Do you really want a mere 4Mhz PC? :-)
    
    o The Sidecar is a dead puppy.  It was a promised product they finally
      delivered, much too late.  Not too many of them were made.
      It does give you the eqivalent of the ibmpc bus in the A2000,
      but may be very hard to find.
    
    o monochrome text is useful for many ibm software packages, except
      for most games.  Lots of nice pd games for the pc....most want
      CGA.  Software emulation would be too slow for arcade speeds.
    
    o Given the current prices for the A2000 + bridgeboard, you could
      buy an Amiga 500 + ibmpc clone for less.  Both the A2000 and the
      bridgeboard are too new to have any competition from 3rd party
      companies.  As long as demand outstrips supply, Commodore has
      no incentive to lower the price.
    
    -Dave
         

Re .9:

	I would be kidding myself if I said I was waiting for the faster 
Bridge card, but since I have to wait for the money, I might as well wait for 
that too.  Who knows, by the time I get it all together, there might even be 
a new model out. :-(
    
	I have to agree about the games; all the better ones use CGA.  
Full emulation would be too slow even for most non-arcade games as well.  I 
would be interested in hearing how the CGA emulation on the A2000 works out.

	If price were the only factor, you would be right about the A500 + 
clone, but there is also the amount of space I have available and the
software integration provided by the A2000 that I would not get with separate 
systems to consider. 

    re: .10
    
    I'm using the excuse of waiting for a faster card currently, i've
    already spent way over my budget upgrading to an A2000.  In theory,
    the longer you wait, the cheaper it gets.  Then you just wait for
    the right temptation to come along.  I got to see BoulderDash
    Construction Set played on a Bridgeboard, it looked fast enough
    but then i've never seen how fast it runs on an ibmpc.  I have heard
    claims that the text scrolling in CGA mode can't keep up, not sure
    what that means or where the bottleneck might be (maybe a faster
    pc cpu might help).  Or maybe the software needs some more tweeking
    for speed, i assume the first goal was to do a good clone
    implementation.  I haven't seen any reports on Usenet about software
    that doesn't work on the Bridgeboard.
                                         
    -dave

Re: .9

>    o Given the current prices for the A2000 + bridgeboard, you could
>      buy an Amiga 500 + ibmpc clone for less.

But there are advantages in having the Amiga 2000 with bridgeboard as
opposed to an Amiga 500 and a clone.

First, the 2000 configuration will be smaller.

Second, the software is better integrated.  It seems much more pleasant
to have an window with a IBM application running in it in amongst all
the windows with Amiga applications running in them.  Also, transferring
data between the two machines is much simpler if they are in the same box:
You can cut and paste between the IBM windows and the Amiga windows on
the 2000 w/Bridgeboard.  You just cannot do that if they are separate
computers.

Third, the hardware is better integrated.  You can have the 2000 and
bridgeboard share hardware resources (for example, have both Amiga and
MS/DOS partitions on a bridgeboard hard disk).

>Both the A2000 and the bridgeboard are too new to have any competition
>from 3rd party companies.

There is some competition.  CSA makes a AMIGA 2000 expansion chassis
for the Amiga 1000.  It contains Zorro II slots (the native Amiga
2000 slots), the processor slot, and the AT/XT slots.  This allows
an Amiga 1000 owner to use Amiga 2000 cards including the bridge
card.  I think that you might be able to save up to about $500 by
buying a used Amiga 1000, CSA turbo-tower, and Amiga bridgeboard
instead of getting an Amiga 2000 and bridgeboard.  (Be warned: I have
never used a CSA turbo-tower.  I have only read descriptions of it
an saw one at AmiExpo.  Call CSA for more details.)

	Well I have finally caught up to my own note in my reading.  The main 
thing I have found is the ABLE price lists that make the total system cost 
much lower, but still out of reach at present.  Now I only have a months 
reading to catch up one instead of a year's.