Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    Hmmm... As much as I think the A500 is a real breakthrough machine,
    I wonder how much of an ST killer it will really be?  I mean, by
    the time you add the extra 512K and an RGB monitor, you'll be up
    over $1000.  That's a good price for the power of an Amiga, but
    I see color 1040 ST systems selling for $850, mail order.  I also
    see mail order Amiga 1000s going for $1100.
    
    Now, anyone reading these notes knows why they bought an Amiga instead
    of an ST or a Mac, but to the average guy out to buy a system, I
    think he'll buy the lowest priced system that will meet his needs,
    especially when he doesn't know what his needs are.  
    
    Show a guy a color 1040 ST, do some demos and pictures, etc. and
    he'll assume that it is as good as an Amiga.  He doesn't know about
    multitasking, expandability, HAM modes, Blitters, Coppers, etc, and
    the Atari salesman sure isn't going to tell him, either.
    
    I'm hoping that discounts will appear quickly, and brand loyalty
    will play a part in some sales, but frankly, I don't think an A500
    system is a cheap as it could be.  Atari seems to be much more
    aggressive than CBM when it comes to pricing.  For example, Atari
    65XEs are selling for $69, but the C'64 is still $140.  The 8-bit
    Atari is every bit as good, or better, than the C'64, so why can't
    CBM cut some prices and fight them on their own terms???
    
    CBM may have a dilemna with the A500... if they go mass market the
    thing, they alienate dealers who may drop the A1000 and A2000 to
    boot.  Yet, in order for dealers to even bother with the thing,
    they have to let them have 15 or 20 percent markup.  

    re: .1 
    
    maybe it is time for CBM to stop worrying about dealers.  Sell thru
    anybody who wants to sell 500s.  Friday i went into Computer
    Marketplace in Tewksbury.  They have only Epson clones and the new
    ibm pcs - no PC 10s at all, and the STs were in a pile in the storage
    area.  According to the salesman, they trusted Atari when it said
    that they wanted to sell the ST thru dealers.  Then the ST started
    selling at Lechmere.  So they no longer carry CBM or Atari products.
    
    The competition is no longer just the color 1040 ST.  The clone
    prices are now cheap enough for folks to ask why buy something
    that isn't ibm pc compatible.  Where are the expansion slots on
    a 1040 or A500?  External boxes aren't cheap.
    
    Price and software are the only strong points - the power of an
    AT at the price of a PC or XT.  For the A500, multitasking, good
    color graphics, and stereo sound supported by most software still
    make it good competition for the low end, even at that price.
    
    -dave

  I stopped by the M.L. to take a look at the '500. The base unit was
posted at $650, A500+monitor at $1000, 1meg A500+monitor at $1175. I 
don't own an Amiga so I asked the salesman to show me some of the demo's
I've been reading about. Very impressive; I especially like the HAM mode
pictures. As for the '500 vrs the '1000 I am leaning towards the '500. 
It has a full size keypad (I work with EDT a lot) & has a hi res mono
output on the back. You should be able to hook up a high persistance
mono monitor to it & have some nice text in interlace mode. The biggest 
point against it is the new bus. You can't use '1000 cards. (Maybe there
will be an adapter in the future). All the option card manufactures must
be getting a bit irked with Commodore; 3 Amiga's with 3 different 
busses!

								Dave

    Dave, all Amigas have an electrically identical 86-pin buss; but
    the location on the 500 makes 1000 boards non-usable.  You're right,
    at the developer's conference last fall, software vendors were ecstatic
    over the new machines, but hardware guys were rightly miffed.
    
    Not only did CBM reverse the handed-ness of the A500 buss, but at
    the same time they announced a new spec for the shape of the standard
    'Zorro' expansion card, which went from being about 8" square to
    what now is an A2000 plug-in.  Some vendors are now producing both
    cards; others have been re-designing their peripherals for the 'new'
    Zorro standard, and still others are ignoring the new spec and
    producing boards only for the 'old' Zorro.  Only CBM could engineer
    such a disaster.  No wonder hardware add-ons have been slow in coming.
    
    On a related note, I heard last night that CBM, in their infinite
    stupidity, has decided to sell the A500 as a bundled system with
    the A1080 monitor.  By doing this, they will be forcing thousands
    of C'64 owners who would like to upgrade, and use their old C'64
    1702 monitor to shell out extra bucks for a terrible monitor that
    no one wants.  Others, who would have held out for the high-persistence
    model, will also be stuck.  If this rumor is true, it could help
    kill what would have been the hottest micro of the eighties.  I
    get chest pains when I think of how stupid Commodore marketing is;
    they still seem determined to kill the Amiga at every chance they
    get.
    
    

Re: .4

>    On a related note, I heard last night that CBM, in their infinite
>    stupidity, has decided to sell the A500 as a bundled system with
>    the A1080 monitor.

I suspect that this rumor is NOT true.  When I was at the Memory Location
last week, they were pushing the Sony 1311 as the monitor of choice for
the 500.  Choosing the Sony monitor instead of the Commodore monitor only
added $100 to the system cost.

   ....and the 1311 is on sale at Lechmere again. I think the new price
    is down to $349.
    

    re .5 and .6
    
    	Is that the Sony KV1311 monitor/tv.  It has both a uhf/vhf tuner,
    remote control, and rgb inputs?  Is this the monitor of choice for
    most amiga users?  How is the interlace flicker?  What is the
    resolution? 640x200?  Is it a long-persistance (cheap price then)?
    
    thanks
    
    brad

    
    I've heard the 1311 is being replaced by Sony with a new model.
    
    This may have been from this notes file, but I think it was on the
    USENET.  Its hard to keep rumors straight, but I guess that's what
    separates them from facts :-).

    re: 3 busses
    
    please remember that the 500 and the 2000 are both new machines.
    The 500 is the only one with external expansion.  The bus is
    basically the same as on the 1000, but located on the other side.
    That will mean a shielded flexible cable will be needed if you
    want an expansion box that can fit either the 500 or the 1000.
    
    CBM "played" with the expansion spec for far too long.  Hopefully they
    have now realized that and will standardize on the 2000's slots/cards.
    And make an expansion box that can use those cards for the 500 and
    the 1000.
    
    -dave

    re: sony
    
    The KV1311CR is a monitor/television.  It displays interlace well,
    if you turn the brightness down.  It has the crispest display because
    of the Trinitorn XBR screen.  As a television, it picks up all
    channels, even has a remote control.  RGB, Composite and TV are
    selected by switches on the front.  All connections are on the side
    of the monitor.  
    
    The thing looks like an oversized VT220.  I LOVE mine.
    

    okay I read the note about the kv1311 being on sale at Lechmere's
    but, upon calling Lechmere's in Framingham, they told me they had
    absolutely no idea what I was talking about.  I have learned that
    it, the kv1311cr has been discontinued by Sony.  So my question
    is, who has them, and how much are they?   thanks bunches...
    
    brad
    
    "the roaming forager"

    Don't ask for the TV department at Lechmere's.  They don't sell the
    KV1311-CR.  Instead, call the computer department.

    I ran into the same problem when it was on sale a couple of months ago.

James

    The one I saw was in manchester, NH.  That was on Sunday.
    
    Good Luck.
    

    I've been using the KV1311 for about a year now.  It's a fabulous
    do-all monitor.  My only complaint is that it weighs a ton.  I'm
    told that this is because Sony uses a cast iron ring to hold the
    shadow mask in tension.
    
    If you do use the Sony, try running in interlace mode, and adjusting
    the verticle hold.  This will make text appear much more solid looking,
    ie, no thin horizontal lines.  By using interlace in the 640 x 200
    mode, and a new font I found floating around called 'clean', I get
    text that rivals Mac or mono ST quality, with no flicker.  I also
    change my default colors to light blue text on a black background.
    
    A very satisfied Sony owner.
    
    

    They have them at Lechmere in Nashua in the Computer Dept.

    How do you get 640x200 interlace mode?

	I was at Lechmere (Nashua) last night, and saw the monitor, but no
mention that it was on sale.  Also, the sale flyers they had out didn't
show it as being on sale.

	I would wonder at the usefullness of having the TV part included.  It
would seem to me that after a while, the borders of the windows would burn
themselves into the phospor, and it would degrade the performance of the TV.

Mark

    	Yup, thanks to all you quick responders, I tried the "Computer
    Dept." at Lechmere's in Framingham...They have it but it "aint on
    sale no more!"...ie price = 499.99...$20.00 more than the best mail
    order price I have seen well, we'll see.
    
    bgw

    re: .16
    
    There are several versions of a program called SETLACE, a very short
    command that causes the Amiga to send out an interlaced image in
    ANY of the video modes.  Didn't know that it could do that, huh?
    
    What SETLACE does is send the same frame twice every 1/60 th of
    a second, rather than once.  With two images to play with, vertical
    hold can be used to offset the two frames by a small amount, causing
    the characters to appear much fuller that they otherwise would.
    I find that in interlaced mode, the text characters are fantastic
    looking, and they do not appear to be made up of dots anymore.
    
    Note that this mode is NOT the same as 640 x 400 interlaced.  There
    is very little flicker, since the entire screen is scanned after
    only 200 lines rather than 400, so the phosphor doesn't start to
    decay.  Also, character size is retained at 24 lines/page.
    
    If you like, I'll throw a copy of SETLACE into my directory tonight.
    Just pop it into the startup-sequence, run it, and dither the vertical
    hold, and watch the improvement.
                                                              
    NOTE:  I have seen this trick used on an Amiga 1080 monitor, and
    the results are terrible.  I don't know why this is the case.  It
    could be that the Sony uses slits instead of dots in the shadow
    mask.  This makes the dark lines between adjacent rows of slits
    more noticable.  

    Well I got mine yesterday at the memory location for $650 + tax.
    Like it so far.  Dont know how many they have left but its worth
    a try.
    

    I happened to pick up the latest issue of MicroTimes and saw an
    interesting thing. The Amiga 500 for $650. With an extra 1/2 meg
    of memory and a monitor it jumped all the way up to $1195.
    
    Just below the add for the 500 was an add for an A1000 with 512k
    for $999.95.
    
    If I was in the market for an Amiga, they would have a hard time
    convincing me to buy a 500 for $200 more.
    
    Chris

    re: .21
    
    the catch is: what is the cheapest 1/2 meg upgrade for the 512k
    A1000?
    
    -dave

    Easy - do it yourself for ~$80. Definitely worth it.

    I think I saw 256K ram expanders for the 1000 for $79.00 in Go Amiga's
    ad in AmigaWhirled.
    

    re: .24
    
    i was referring to plug-in, no soldering required, 512K memory
    expansion to bring your 512K A1000 up to 1 Meg total program ram.
    (not counting kickstart ram)
    
    I've heard of a couple - the Insider, and some others, but none
    were under $200.
    
    -dave
    

Re: .24

>    I think I saw 256K ram expanders for the 1000 for $79.00 in Go Amiga's
>    ad in AmigaWhirled.

But those were for taking a 256k Amiga 1000 to a 512k Amiga 1000.  After
you expand a 1000 to 512k, it gets more expensive to expand (unless you
build it yourself).

    Sorry, I must have dozed off somewhere between .23 and .24....
    
    The best price I've seen on an 'Insider' type 512K card was $230.
    
    Aminetics sells a bare board for $119.  Add $85-90 for 32 chips
    and you're not that far from $230.
    

    Ok, so I give up.  What are the pros and cons of the A500 vs the A1000
    in terms of performance, expansion, and support?  I'm considering
    buying one but haven't a clue at the moment for deciding which is the
    better choice.
    
    -tl 

    If you are intent on expanding the machine soon, or adding a hard
    drive, the 1000 is the clear choice for now.  There are currently
    six or seven SCSI drives and at least 1 true DMA drive available
    for the 1000, shipping today.
    
    Also, there are a dozen or so ways to take the memory of the 1000
    over 1 meg (in fact, up to 9 megs).  Lots of people here are using
    the MicroBotics Starboard2 expansion cage.  It is a small box about
    1.5" wide that can hold up to two megs of ram, and a multifunction
    board that is socketed for a 68881.  Microbotics is also close to
    releasing a SCSI controller board that will fit in the box. 
    
    The current GENLOCK will only mate with the 1000, so rule that out
    for the 500 for a while.
    
    As far as performance goes, both machines are identicle, ie. same
    clock speed, graphics, co-processors etc...  but the 512K expansion
    ram kit for the 500 resides on the chip buss.  This means that there
    may be some contention with the custom chips for processor cycles.
    However, this slowdown would never be any greater than the slowdown
    encountered in an unexpanded machine.  This slowdown is hardly
    noticable, and has been greatly exaggerated by Amiga-enviers.  The
    problem is completely avoided by adding memory onto the expansion
    buss, since code hunks that the custom chips do not need to access
    are automatically loaded into 'fast' ram (expansion) and code hunks
    that the custom chips DO need are automatically loaded into chip
    ram.
        
    One more point to consider... If a new revision of the OS is released,
    you'd need to do a ROM change on the new machines, whereas you'd
    just boot with a new Kickstart disk on the 1000.  ROM changes are
    no big deal, the MAC and ST guys do it all the time, but I've always
    thought that having the OS in write protected RAM was a plus, not
    a minus.
    
    

> < Note 518.29 by LEDS::ACCIARDI >
>
>   							ROM changes are
>    no big deal, the MAC and ST guys do it all the time, 

	I _wish_ the ST would fix it's ROMs.  Just another reason to buy an 
Amiga.  I'm looking for a used 1000 myself.

	Anybody want a used 1040ST in great shape?    

RE: < Note 518.29 by LEDS::ACCIARDI >
    
>>    Lots of people here are using
>>    the MicroBotics Starboard2 expansion cage.  It is a small box about
>>    1.5" wide that can hold up to two megs of ram, and a multifunction
>>    board that is socketed for a 68881.  Microbotics is also close to
>>    releasing a SCSI controller board that will fit in the box. 

I have one and know how tight it is inside. I believe the multifunction
board might fit but are you sure the SCSI board will also go in that "little"
box with the multifunction board and 2 meg of memory???!!!

Anybody have one of the multifuncion boards yet that can give a review?
( Dying to see what the speed increase will be for things like MANDELVROOM
  with the 68881 and if the parity memory option will affect favorite
  packages like the recoverable ram disk )

Also wondering if anybody has looked at the possibility of upgrading the 
chips in the Starboard for > 2 meg of ram?

    As for Genlock on the A500...I wouldn't hold my breath.  It took
    Commodore over a year to get it FCC'd and released for the A1000.
    I can't imagine how long it will take for them to get it together
    for the A500.  My guess is that they will only make one for the
    A2000, as a card that will fit internally, and skip the A500.
    
    Of course, I'm only guessing here, but I wouldn't be surprised if
    this is exactly the case.
    

    Re:  Starboard Volume...
    
    Right, it is tight in there.  The SCSI board must take the place
    of the upper deck, reducing the RAM to 1 meg.  
    
    The SCSI board is vapor at this time, but since everyone else is
    making them, Microbotics shouldn't have any trouble.  The rumor
    I heard was that they'll scrap their present parallel-port drive
    scheme in favor of SCSI.
          

	RE .29

	Let just keep the perspective on price for all the expansion goodies
	you mentioned.

	Expansion for the A1000 costs, particularly hard disks.
	If you can afford the A2000 and a wait, expansion is
	hopefully, maybe, "Real Soon Now", going to be cheaper.
	Of course, what this means is that rumours, and logistics say
	that expansion for the 2000 will be cheaper, but it will
	be awhile before anyone really knows.

	RE .more opinion.
	Somehow I'm skeptical about expansion for the A500 though...
	My gut feeling about the A500 is, buy it only if you don't
	want to add.

Dave

All I want for my amiga is a hard disk and Common Lisp,
one of which costs too much, the other of which doesn't exist (yet).

    Re:  Starboard
    
    I don't know about anybody else but I wouldn't even take as a gift
    a SCSI board that would cut my ram by a meg. I've become used to having
    everything sit in ram where I can use it instantly. I sometimes go a
    couple of weeks without using the floppys. If I need mass disk storage 
    I can really depend on that will be automatically backed up, there 
    is always that empty RA82 at work ;^}
    If Microbotics wants to hook another box to the side of the Starboard, I 
    would consider it. 

    Re: More Starboard..
    
    The A1000 power supply is considered adequate to power two fully
    populated Starboards on the buss.  So, you could add another Starboard
    with 1 meg + SCSI, or add a Supra/C. Ltd box to the Starboard. 
    Both of these drives/interfaces have been used successfully with
    a Starboard on the buss.  Any timing problems encountered can be
    solved by replacing the PAL chips on early Amigas.  This is not
    often problematic, but some early Monolithic Memories PALs had marginal
    speed, which in a small percentage of older Amigas, could cause
    problems with more than one device on the buss.
    
    Personally, I haven't yet decided whether to hang another box off
    the buss, or wait for Microbotics' SCSI board and loose a meg of
    RAM.  I too have become very wasteful with RAM, since I usually
    boot a full system disk and a half-dozen or so utilities into a
    RAM disk.

re .33    
>      The SCSI board must take the place
>   of the upper deck, reducing the RAM to 1 meg.  


    Do you KNOW this to be the case, or are you ASSUMING that the choice
    would be to throw out 1M; seems they could put SCSI where the
    multifunction module would go.
    
    p.s.  heard last night from Memory Location's proprietor that the
    multifunction module may be dead.
    
    John
    

RE:.37
>>    p.s.  heard last night from Memory Location's proprietor that the
>>    multifunction module may be dead.

	There are a dozen suppiers in the latest AmigaWorld with prices
	from $80 to $100.  Are we talking about the selling of vapor-ware
	or is the multifunction card going to die for some reason? 

	I personally bought the Starboard on the promise of this 
	upgrade :-{

    Re: .37
    
    The Starboard came up in conference on Plink... there was speculation
    that the SCSI board 'might' be located in place of the multi-function
    module, but it was agreed that the board would be too large.  Ever
    see how much real estate is reserved for the Multi-function board?
    A few  square inches.  Anyway, this is all just speculation.  Amazing
    Computing (aka John Foust) posted the announcement that Microbotics
    would build a SCSI board, and then folks just started speculating.
    
    I will call Microbotics, and see if I can't get an update from the
    horses mouth.  I find it hard to believe that the Multifunction
    board is dead, since MB contracted Carl Sassenrath to write the
    'Sticky RAM' software.

    re: 500 vs 1000
    
    I finally got to play with a 500 at the Memory Location.  Looks
    and feels like a killer machine.  The only thing i found bad about
    it was the lack of a detachable keyboard.
    
    Since the 500 and a 512K 1000 are basically the same machine, the
    pros/cons are the externals.  
    
    the 500 pros
      o easy to upgrade to 1 Meg internally, and cheaper than 1000
      o full keypad, useful for EDT 
      o Kickstart in ROM, no two disk boot needed
    the 500 cons
      o no detachable keyboard, might be worth checking the specs in
        the 500 manual to see how many wires run to the keyboard, might
        be able to detach with some hardware hacking
      o no memory expansion products available currently, except from
        commodore, should be available soon
      o drive slot on side instead of on front, not as easy to insert
        disks there
      o may need to buy a monitor stand (the 500 looks about as deep
        as the 1000, but you can't put the monitor on top of it)
      o the 1.2 Kickstart ROM prevents running 1.1 on the 500. Some
        misbehaved software requires 1.1 to run correctly.
    
    -dave

    Re:  Microbotics Starboard...
    
    Maybe this deserves a new note, but the topic began here...
    
    I just spoke with MicroBotics regarding the SCSI board and the
    multifunction board for the StarBoard2.  The fellow I spoke with
    informed me that the SCSI board would displace the multifunction
    module, not the Upper Deck (2 nd meg).  The SCSI board must be pretty
    small.
    
    Anyway, he said that if you wanted, you could chain two StarBoards,
    one with the multifunction board and one with SCSI, and all functions
    will work.  Imagine 4 megs of ram, a 68881, clock/calander, and SCSI 
    all in a package three inches thick!
                     
    The planned release dates are end of June for the multifunction
    board, and end of July for SCSI.
    
    For those not interested in a 68881, you could add a C. Ltd or Supra
    drive mechanism only to a Starboard w/SCSI, and not have to add
    another box to the buss.
    
    MicroBotics' phone number is (214) 437-5330.  Redmond Simonsen is
    the VP, but I spoke to a peon engineer.  Maybe if we all call and
    say 'We want our SCSI/Multifunction boards' they'll get their asses
    in gear.

>                                               The SCSI board must be pretty
>   small.
    
    Both Commodore and NCR (National Cash Register) make single chip
    SCSI controllers.  I am familiar with the NCR product, which is  
    an entire family of devices including ones with built-in high
    current drivers, pseudo DMA operation, etc.  They're in plcc packages
    and require very little glue logic; in fact, the Starboard II may
    already have most of what's required.  
    

    By the way, does thissmean that Microbotics will supply the software
    driver for generic SCSI devices?  Like hard drives, tapes, etc.?
     I've seen 10 or 20M SCSI drives for the MAC for around three or
    four hundred dollars from the liquidators.  Also, what connector
    will they support; currently twenty-five and thirty-seven pin d-subs,
    as well as the ANSI standard 50 conductor double row .1" header
    have been seen on different vendors' systems.
    

Re: .42

>    Both Commodore and NCR (National Cash Register) make single chip
>    SCSI controllers.

Byte by Byte PAL expansion boxes use a disk control licensed from Commodore.
And as everyone knows, that controller is the fastest one available for the
Amiga, and is going to be the controller used in the Commodore sold hard disk
for the Amiga 2000.

I wonder if this controller is the one chip scuzzy part mentioned in .42?
If so, and if this is the part used by Microbiotics, their controller should
be very good.

    Randy, I thought that the PAL drives used a DMA design licensed
    from CBM, with SCSI as an optional follow on product.  I do know
    that Steve Peters has a PAL (Sr, not Jr) and he told me that their
    SCSI adaptor wasn't ready to ship yet...
    
    I guess the benefit of having both interfaces would be for the speed
    of the DMA drive coupled with the ability to add inexpensive generic
    cartridge tape drives, or CD or whatever...
    
    Maybe someone else should call MicroBotics and try to get some more
    info out of them.  I was kinda rushed when I called and didn't think
    to ask all these questions.

re: .44    
>    And as everyone knows, that controller is the fastest one available for the
>Amiga


	This isn't necessarily so.  You would have to examine the chips
for speed, and there are several NCR chips.  I believe at least one
of the has an integral DMA controller.  I further believe that they
have a chip that supports SCSI synchronous mode - 4megabytes (yes, bytes)
per second, as opposed to the 1.5 mbytes of asynch. mode.  Also, you
can't go any faster than the slowest guy involved, which might be the
disk and disk controller combo.