Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    If you can hold off for another month or so, there is supposed to
    be a hard drive comparison in the next issue of Amazing Computing.
    
    John Foust and Sheldon Leemon have come up with a series of tests
    that are supposed to benchmark various performance parameters, such
    as directory list times, file loads and saves, and characterize
    what happens when a drive becomes fragmented.  
    
    For what it's worth, the rumors are that the Pal (Dma) is the fastest,
    (loads 'Juggler' in something like 3 seconds) and the Xebec and
    Supra are about equal.  The C. Ltd is the slowest, but they have
    re-released their SCSI hardware and drivers, and claim that THEY
    are now the fastest.
    
    In other news, Tim King of Metacomco has re-written the AmigaDOS
    hard disk driver routines for a factor of 3 speedup.  Supposedly,
    he is negotiating with CBM on a release deal.
    
    Unless you can't live without it, I'd wait until the smoke settles
    a bit and let the market competition drive prices down even further.

re: .0

> For those of you who have a hard drive, which one did you choose, 
> and why do you think you made the right/wrong choice?

How many people have hard drives?  For that matter, how many people even
know someone with a hard drive.  I get the impression that virtually no one
does yet.  I am curious to hear from someone with experience in getting
stardard software to work on a hard drive - I expect there to be a number
of problems until hard drives are much more common.

I gather it won't be until the 2000 that you can actually boot from a hard
drive.  I wonder if that capability will become available for the 1000?

	Paul

    re: .2
    
    I think Amiga booting off the harddisk is planned for Kickstart/WB
    version 1.3? (whatever they want to call the next release).  The
    2000 won't be able to boot off the harddisk until then, unless you
    have the PC card and let MS-DOS boot the harddisk.
    
    -dave

    I know a dozen or so folks on Plink that are using hard drives,
    including the C Ltd, Supra and Xebec models.  The only problems
    reported are in using a C Ltd with an additional buss add-on such
    as a Starboard2.  This problem can be solved by cutting a few traces
    in the C Ltd SCSI board that mess up the pass thru.
    
    The Xebec and Supra models are reported to work perfectly with memory
    boards from Microbotics and the InSider.
    
    Apparently, C Ltd. has been a bit derelict in strictly following
    the expansion spec.  Many flames have gone back and forth between
    CBM, C Ltd, ASDG and others regarding the issue of buss add-ons.
    
    The bottom line is that if a hard drive works at all, it works
    perfectly with all software.

When you say "work", how smoothly do you mean?

can you take multitudes of games and tuck them in drawers in drawers ... and 
have everything work smoothly from workbench?  could start to get unmanagable 
if lots of packages need things in particular places in the hierarchy.

Also, how do people handle backups?  Lacking a good backup device it would 
seem necessary to keep all volatile data on floppies or else have some sort of 
incremental backup.  Also would want to have an automated build procedure for 
creating the "static" portions of the hard disk from the master floppies

Perhaps someone has already worked out a good hard disk management strategy - 
it is something I would want before I made very extensive use of one.


	Paul

    As you probably know, AmigaDOS 1.2 will automatically recognize
    and configure a hard disk by installing the driver in the 'Expansion'
    directory, and including the 'BINDRIVERS' command in your
    startup-sequence.  At that point, the hard drive is just another
    big, fast floppy.  I don't know of any 'bugs' such as the ST/GEM
    40 folder limit.  People who are using HD's love them, and other
    than some memory/SCSI problems, I haven't heard any complaints.
    If you are going to buy a HD, I would recommend bringing your own Amiga
    with any buss add-ons to the dealer to try the HD on your own setup.
    Since this is inconvenient with a mail-order purchase, you should
    at least describe any unique combinations of add-ons you may be
    using.  For example, Steve at Abel Supply assured me that the Xebec
    and Supra drives work fine with a Microbotics Starboard.
    
    People have told me that the drives will slow down as they become
    fragmented, especially directory listings, due to AmigaDOS's wierd
    hashing scheme.
    
    The heirarchy of drawers within drawers within drawers is preserved,
    just like on a floppy.  About the only thing you can't do is boot
    from the HD.
    
    I don't know what people are doing for a backup scheme, but I think
    I have read of a commercial backup utility (in Amazing Computing?).
    The only way to backup, even with a utility, is to use a ton of
    floppys.  Every HD owner faces this dilemna, even in the Mac & PC
    worlds.
    
    I basically share your apprehension over shelling out $700+ until
    some braver, richer people have worked out all the details.
                                                                       
    

    Ah, I realized what you meant by some programs 'not working smoothly'.
    
    Some programs require that the program disk be located in DF0:,
    and if you relocate the disk, Intuition will keep bitching at you
    to re-insert the disk into DF0:.  Games frequently do this.
    So, even if you could copy the program (unprotected) onto a HD, it 
    might not run properly.
    
    Well, some clever person created a fix called 'FILEZAP' which allows
    you to re-direct the default device for the program.  I believe
    this modifies the actual executable, like 'FIXHUNK', so you might
    want to perform the modification on a backup copy.
    
    Some games (like those from Epyx) actually have the audacity to
    include DF0: in the path name to the various program segments. I suppose
    you could get in and rename the segments, but I haven't heard of
    anyone trying this.. it may be a moot point, since many games take
    over the machine anyway.
    
    Other than that, I can't think of any other snafus that have been
    reported.  Most programs these days support DH0: in the file requestor
    boxes.
    
    I find it remarkable that after 18 months on the market, there is
    no real feel for what works and what doesn't work.  I am still confused
    as to the difference between DMA, SCSI, and DMA/SCSI.  Why have
    things moved along so slowly?  The ST folks have had several HD's
    to chose from for about 6 months now.  Maybe their built-in DMA
    port made life a lot easier for hardware developers. (Although a
    few people on the USENet have been bitching for Atari to include
    a SCSI port on future machines).

    
    While you can't boot from a Hard Disk, I believe that you can utilize
    a PD program which will create a "kickbench".  This will be one
    disk that can be inserted at power up.  The startup sequence on the
    "kickbench" would then assign SYS:, DEVS:, C:, etc onto some location
    on the hard disk.  This is all heresay.  Has anyone out there done/seen
    this?
    
    
    steve mcafee
    

    re:.7
    
    FILEZAP is a file editor for hacking any file.  You have to manually
    hunt for "DF0" and replace it with what ever you want.  It is a
    poor programming practice to hardcode device names, they should
    be using the volume name.
    
    The ST got harddisks early because Atari started selling one.  It
    is much easier to debug problems with new hardware if you have
    a working example in front of you.  CBM spent their time rewriting
    the Zorro expansion spec.  A changing spec makes it hard to develop
    product using it.
    
    The stuff to look for is DMA/SCSI harddisks.  The catch is the price
    and performance - no advantage to DMA until Amigados gets the Tim
    King speedup.  
    
    the 3 basic pieces are
    amiga/scsi interface--------------scsi/st506 interface--harddisk
    
    The DMA SCSI would be in the Amiga/SCSI interface.  That just
    provides a faster amiga ram to scsi path.
    
    The reason for using SCSI instead of ST506 directly is that SCSI
    is so much faster.
    
    With an amiga/scsi interface you should be able to hook up to
    any scsi drive, even ones made for the MAC or ST.  You just need
    the right cable to connect your interface to the scsi/st506 interface.
    
    -dave
    

    Are there any scsi/st506 comercially available?  If so, what are
    the product names and who sells them?
    
      db
    

    check the ads in the back of Computer Shopper or some of the MAC
    or PC magazines.  SCSI is still somewhat new in the PC market,
    so you might have to read the small print to find mention of it.
    
    The catch is how do you provide power for the interface hardware.
    The MAC has SCSI built in; the pc just plugs the board into a slot;
    for the Amiga and ST - the easiest way is to combine the computer/SCSI,
    SCSI/ST506, and the harddisk all in the same box with a builtin power
    supply.
    
    The next generation is being driven by the MAC.  It is external
    SCSI harddisks that you connect to from a computer/SCSI interface
    that is powered from the computer.  I believe C Ltd is selling
    an Amiga/SCSI interface for about $200, maybe less.  There are
    a couple other vendors selling them.
    
    The hard part is the computer/SCSI interface, the rest is standard
    parts from the pc world.
    
    And no, i've never tried hooking one up to my amiga.  I'm waiting
    for the market to discover, just like they did with the ST, that
    you can sell lots of harddisks if they don't cost $1000+.
    
    I'd like to see some add-ons for the Amiga designed to take advantage
    of pc goodies.  Right now full height floppies and harddisks are
    really cheap, most of the market is headed for 1/2 height floppies and 
    3.5" 1/2 height harddisks.  I haven't seen an Amiga/ST506 adapter
    for sale anywhere.
    
    -dave