Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    I think your complaints are justified.  I don't share your
    frustrations because I refuse to buy an Amiga until these
    problems are cleared up.  I've been in the computer field
    since 1963, so I'm not a novice, but I see no sense in
    subjecting myself to an immature product.
    
    Maybe by Christmas the Atari will be worth buying.
        John Sauter

    It really is a shame that you can't get everything.  The Mac, for
    example, has very consistent software that can be figured out with
    out even cracking a manual.  
    
    There is nothing about the Amiga that inherently prevents it from
    being as elegant to use as the Mac.  I won't mention the ST because
    I think it is at least as buggy as the Amiga, according to BIX exchanges.
    A good example of this is the use of the clipboard device.  Noone
    uses it, which is why it is still impossible to transfer graphics
    into a text editor.  And noone uses it because noone agrees on how
    it should be used.  IFF is definately wanting in some respects.
    
    
    The problem comes from the release of an immature product from a
    struggling company that cannot provide enough good technical support,
    documentation, etc. to it's developers.
    
    The only consolation is that as time goes on, and more machines
    fall into skilled hands, things will clear themselves up.  Early
    Mac software was nowhere ne as classy as todays packages, tho a
    damn sight better than the Amigas.
    
    In spite of all this, I still feel that the Amiga has more potential
    than any other affordable micro on the market.  But I share your
    frustrations.

    Randy:
    
    Regarding your stated problem of getting software to recognize and
    run with extra memory:
    
    Early programs were written before there was a clear defination
    of how to deal with 'fast' memory.  So most developers avoided the
    problem by ignoring it.  All the program code goes int 'chip' memory,
    (the lowest 512K).
    
    There is a public domain utility called 'Fixhunk' that forces a
    progam to load the code into external memory. I don't have a memory
    expander yet, and I haven't used 'Fixhunk', but I believe it works
    very well if installed in the startup-sequence.
    
    Also, all major programs are being upgraded to run with the extra
    memory boards.  Electronic Arts has promised to make upgrades available
    for approx. $20-30.
    
    If you really want advice on what works and what doesn't, you should
    post some notes on Plink or Compuserve.  Quite a few people are
    running extra memory without any problems.
    
    Incidentally, the ST has no problems recognizing extra memory, as
    I recall, because it has a much friendlier memory map than the Amiga.
    I don't think there are any special reserved areas like in the Amiga.
    But, the ST doesn't benefit from the Amiga custom chips.  So, maybe
    this is the price we pay for the use of the custom chips?

    just a small matter of programming...
    
    i too had many concerns about immature software.  But a lot of the
    problems mentioned in .0 are common to all personal computers.
    The ibm PC world is much worse.  Imagine having no idea if your computer
    is "compatible" enough to work with certain hardware or software.
    And then worrying if particular combinations of hardware and software
    won't crash each other.
    
    The solution ATARI is pushing is to get involved with a user group
    for support, help, etc.  Sort of strength in numbers.
    
    Are there any Amiga user groups in the Boston area besides BCS?
    (i don't like driving into Boston).  I saw the ad for the computer
    show done by MARCA...don't know anything about them.
    
    -dave
    
    
    

    re: .3
    
    EA upgrades:  I have yet to hear anything from them, or anyone else,
    concerning upgrades to their software.  I was very careful to send
    in my cards, but haven't received anything back from them.  I did
    get some additional documentation for DeluxeVideo, though.
    
    This reminds me of car manufacturers.  Your car starts making strange
    noises.  You eventually call the dealer about it.  They say, "Oh
    yes, we know about that...bring it in, we'll fix it for free." 
    Do you think they would ever call you to warn you about the problem
    first?  NO WAY.  Not unless people are getting killed, causing a
    recall.
    
    Aegis, who is supposed to be one of the premiere software companies
    for the Amiga, has been horrible in this respect.  I could go on
    for hours about them...
    
    Regarding other PC's, it's true...they all suffer from this problem.
    To me, the Pro325/350/380 really take the cake.  I have NEVER been
    able to get one to work.  The processes for mounting software on
    the hard disk, egad!  It's a wonder anyone can figure it out.  I
    never could.  I DO look longingly at the Mac, and the steps they
    have taken to make life easy.  I really wish that C/A could have
    done the same thing...maybe they eventually will.
    
    On the Atari front, I got a full demo of my brother's 1040ST this
    weekend.  Boy am I glad I got the Amiga.  Having seen both up close,
    I really prefer Intuition to GEM.  Life without multitasking must
    be awful.  I also noticed the problems he had running software for
    different resolutions, B&W and Color.  What a hassle.  I'm glad
    that that never happens with the Amiga.  He also has a 520ST that
    he uses for his BBS, "MetroST."  I used to be an Atari fanatic.
     I was all ready to buy an ST....but the discussions of what form
    TOS would be in, hack memory upgrades, lack of NTSC, and a keyboard
    that is gorgeous (but with a 'feel' that I do not like), lack of
    multitasking, etc. sent me to the Amiga.  I was even one of those
    who shot down the Amiga, early on.  The Tramiels had hypnotized
    me.  30 seconds into my first Amiga demo, and I was sold.
    
    Oh well, I guess that I can put up with the 'irritation.'  I don't
    have much choice.  If anyone comes across a hard disk/memory
    upgrade/plotter/proportional joystick/long persistance CRT/9600
    baud internal modem for only $150.00, let me know. ;-)
    
    Randy
    

    Randy, one thing that has been pointed out to me is not that GEM
    is so bad, but that Atari has implemented it poorly.  Take the lack
    of global printer support, for example.  I have read meny notes
    where people spend a lot of time trying to hack out a non-epson
    driver.  On the Mac, they sidestep the problem by only sopporting
    their own printers.  At least the Amiga does have global support
    for all the printers listed inpreferences.
    
    I think what it boils down to is that the Amiga and ST are still
    hacker's machines, but the Mac has evolved into a real peach.  However,
    Apple is no longer selling technology, but solutions. Atari and
    CBM are selling technology with some rough edges.
    
    Re: EA upgrades...the policy is not official, but those numbers
    were mentioned by Jeff Johanigian of EA as likely upgrade costs.
    
    Re: Aegis... I think they need a lot of fine tuning before they
    can claim to be a 'Premier' developer.  I think EA holds that title
    for now.  EA stuff seems to be pretty Guru-proof.  If only they
    would quit making games and get out some serious stuff.
    

    Re:  EA updates.
    
    At the MARCA Computer Fair this past saturday (11/15) David Weiss
    of EA demo'd DPaint II.  He stated that owners who sent their cards
    in should be getting a letter about a $30 update sometime in the
    near future.  I think they along with everyone else were simply waiting
    for 1.2 to be released.  He also said that The Bard's Tale should
    be coming out soon, but Deluxe Music won't be seen until January.
    
    Several copies of WB1.2 were for sale in the wee hours of this
    convention!!  Unfortunately I opted to sleep in (damn).  The were
    official copies.  I saw one and it was blessed by the Commodore
    folks who were there.  It cost $14.95.  Stores should be getting
    this in the next few weeks.
    
    For those of you who haven't seen Defender of the Crown yet, you're
    in for a big surprise.  It's realy something...
    
    Steve McAfee
    
    BTW DPaint II had some nice new features.
    
                        

Re .0:

Randy, I think that, as far as memory expansion goes, you have let what
you read upset you too much.  The problems that people are having with
programs not working with memory expansions is somewhat temporary.  I
expect that the next update to every piece of software you own will
work with extended memory.

As for compact memory expansions, they are coming.  Quite a few people
are developing or even shipping compact memory expansion units.  The
Memory Location even has a preproduction copy of an 8 meg ram box
that fits between the Amiga and its monitor.  The box is about 1 inch
high.

Furthermore, I expect competition in the memory market to cause prices
to drop quite a bit in the next few months.

By the way, the reason that the memory boxes don't work with all software
is not any fault of the memory expansion developers.  The problem is entirely
with the software developers.

Unlike JAKE::ACCIARDI in note 175.3, I am not so sympathetic with the software
developers.  It has been clear from the beginning that the Amiga has two
types of memory: chip memory and fast memory.  It has also been clear that
all data passed to the special chips must be in chip memory.  Furthermore,
as far as I know, AmigaDOS has always had the most important support
needed to do the right thing (AllocMem() with the MEMF_CHIP requirement
flag).  Certainly, since AmigaDOS 1.1 (that provided the ATOM processor),
a developer has had no excuse.

I think the developers have learned the errors of their ways.  Not only
have they gotten complaints from customers, but I have heard from several
sources that the biggest group buying the memory expansions is the
software developers themselves.  (There is just something about 2.5 meg
that makes life a lot easier.)  The software developers have to make
their product run in fast memory just so they can run it on their machines.)

About FixHunk:  FixHunk is a program, I believe, that reads a executable
program and alters it by marking all of the data hunks in the program as
being chip data hunks.  This will cause AmigaDOS to place all of the data
of the program into chip memory when it is run.  As such, you only run
FixHunk once on each program you own.  There is no need to run FixHunk
in your Startup-Sequence.

There are three ways a programmer could screw up working with fast
memory.  First, he could allocate a chip data structure dynamically with
out requesting chip memory (in C, this would just be a call to malloc).
Second, he could staticly allocate chip data in his program (in C, this
would be declaring the data extern or static).  Third, he could allocate
chip data on the stack.  FixHunk is designed to fix the second problem
described.  It does nothing to fix the first or third problem.  Luckily,
the third version of the problem is likely to be rare.  Since the success
rate using FixHunk is claimed high, it must be that the developers did use
AllocMem properly.

Re .3:

Memory expansion on the ST may get interesting.  I haven't seen
anything from Atari that gives any real information on their blitter
chip.

Is the chip going to work with the entire address space?  (Almost a
requirement given that there is nothing in the ST software architecture
to handle having two flavors of memory.)

Is the blitter going to support the possible 4 meg that the ST memory
"management" chip handles, or just the one meg that Atari puts in the
machines?  (There are some companies that have pried open the ST and
figured out how to add additional memory to it.  There will be a
problem if the blitter cannot handle the extended memory.)

Will the blitter be a true bimmer like in the Amiga, or just a bitblt
engine?

Re .0 (again):

Your problems with cables are quite real, but a personal computing problem
in general, not just a problem with the Amiga.  Regardless of what
computer you buy, getting the right cables for a non-pro is a
pain.

The only unique Amiga problem here is the damned connector for the monitor
on the Amiga.  It's a non-standard part, not something available at every
Radio Shack.  (I didn't have to go through this, I have a 1080 monitor
that came with a cable.)

    Re: ST Blitter Chip
    
    Anyone know if the STs with blitters will make pre-blitter software
    blit? (Is that a word?).  Seems like those 600 titles for the ST
    would all have to be re-released to work with it, if one wanted
    any speed gains on graphics.  I sure am glad that Amiga had one
    in the first place!  Just one less thing to worry about.

    RE:  FixHunk
    
    There is also a utility called 'AddMem' or 'MemGrab' or some such
    that (I think) does the opposite of FixHunk.  Anyway, with all these
    little patches, almost every title can be made to run with added
    memory.
    
    

Re .12:

Haven't heard of MemGrab.  I am no help there.

About AddMem:  it is a program that you put in your Startup-Sequence
(at least under Kickstart 1.1).  The Amiga w/Kickstart 1.1 does not
recognize extended memory until someone tells it about it.  That
someone is the AddMem program.  All the memory expansion folks ship
their boards with a diskette containing a copy of AddMem.

Under 1.2, the Amiga automatically does recognize expansion (ie, "fast")
memory, if the memory has a small amount of additional hardware.  This
is the auto-config mentioned in all the ads.

Thus, AddMem makes expansion available for use by the system.  It doesn't
help programs that violate Amiga programming rules work.

Re .11:

Does adding a Blitter to an ST get you anything immediately?  I have
been wondering about this as of late.  I would be willing to bet small
(very small :->) sums that it doesn't.

I think that the last release of GEM was too early to incorporate
blitter support.  I find it very hard to believe that software
developers of ST applications went that far out of their way to
make allowances for it.

I could be that the blitter is just a heat sink for the 68000 until
the next version of GEM or the next update to ST applications, or both.
(There are claims of a new version of GEM coming out Real Soon Now.  I
wonder if the blitter is the reason.)

Re .ST
Could we keep these ST/BLITTER conversations out of the AMIGA conference?

    ST comments do sort of match the note title - "irritation" :-)
    
    to answer the question - its only rumors until the critter ships
    
    I'm just glad AMIGA HAS IT NOW, instead of someday.
    
    -dave

    I don't mind the discussion of the ST here.  It helps compare the
    Amiga to the ST...even though there is a separate notesfile for
    the ST's.
    

    I only brought up blitters because of some of the threads I read
    on CIS.  To hear folks speak, they think that the ST will suddenly
    become a Sun workstation by the simple addition of this wonder chip.
     
    What is really funny is that most of these guys think that an Blitter
    is a truly wonderful thing for the ST, and in the same sentence
    they'll remark about how the Amiga's custom chip set makes the machine
    run slower than a Timex Sinclair.  Go figure it!  

    Speaking of Timex Sinclair ... I saw an ad in a mag offering those
    for $19.95 for the first and $16.95 for the second!