Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    Don't buy futures.  Even though a salesman says that his company is
    going to release a product ``real soon now'' that will knock the
    stockings off the competition, that doesn't mean there is any reality
    behind the claim.  Even if all such claims were 100% true, you still
    shouldn't wait, because the industry is moving so fast that a better
    machine will always be available if you just wait a few months.  If you
    always wait you will never get anything. 
    
    Here is the strategy I use: I decide what I want, independent of what
    is available, or even possible.  I then look at what products are
    available *now*, *in the store*, *complete*.  Usually I don't find
    exactly what I want, and possibly I adjust my expectations slightly,
    but not very much.  Usually what I want is not available now, in which
    case I wait for it.  I *do not* buy something that is less than what I
    need, with the promise that I can upgrade it later.  Instead, I just
    wait. 
    
    Eventually, perhaps, the product that fulfills my needs is available,
    in the store, complete.  I then buy it, no matter what might be ``just
    around the corner'' from somebody else.  Even if a better product
    becomes available the next day I am not disappointed or annoyed,
    because the product that I bought does meet my needs. 
                                                          
    As an example of this, my venerable Apple II is falling apart, but it
    is still capable of communications, spreadsheet, word processing and
    music, so I'm not desperate.  I would like a machine with a large disk
    and lots of memory.  The IBM PC is too limited in its memory for music,
    so I have been looking at an Amiga.  What I want is a machine that can
    do communications, spreadsheet, word processing and music.  It must
    have at least 20 MB of disk, with a way to back it up, and at least 1MB
    of memory, with the option to extend to 2MB if I find I need it. 
    
    All of this has been promised for the Amiga, but the machines you can
    buy in the store today do not have it.  Therefore, I am waiting. I
    estimate that the system I want will probably be available about
    Christmas time, and I think I can nurse my Apple II along until then.
    The disk drives will be 7 years old by then. 
    
    Maybe by Christmas some other manufacturer will have the system I want,
    and Commodore will have gone belly-up.  That isn't likely, but if it
    does happen I am not left hanging with an incomplete system. 
    
    I'm still waiting for a Navstar receiver for my car.
        John Sauter

       I agree with John, that if you continually procrastinate you
       will never buy a system - there will always be a "bigger and
       better" just on the horizon.  Even as we speak the AMIGA has
       the A2000 nipping at its heals!  My problem is that I don't
       have the patience that he must have, as I am an implusive buyer
       (not to be confused with compulsive - thats my wife) and the
       moment I saw the AMIGA I was sold on it and it was sold
       to me! 

       I also like his strategy of waiting until all of the important
       stuff that you are looking for is physically on the shelf
       BEFORE making your purchase.  In addition to knowing that you
       are not buying futures in someones "pipe-dream", there is often
       the added bonus, and as those of us who purchased our AMIGA's
       last year only too well know, that the prices have been reduced
       and/or incentives made available. 

       With regards to the SUPER APPLE, I think I saw some mention if
       it in the latest issue of Byte in their updates from COMDEX.
       From memory, as I don't have the article in front of me, the
       reference couldn't have been more than 20-40 words in length.
       Not much to sink your teeth into, or make a decision on, in any
       event! 
       
       
       Art Gosling - Kanata

    Thanks to everyone for all those considerations but you haven't
    answered to my question.
    Yes of course if I wait one month each month I'll never buy one
    system but the question is not here but : 'I can wait one more 
    month (perhaps I don't like that) but is it a good idea?'
    Some more info are : hard disk of 20M and more available (comes
    from Mac)            date of product released around 18-19 September
                         hight resolution with 256 colors choiced in
    4096 available
    Some more questions: somebody says that graphic is well better 
    on ST,what about ?   what about MIDI interface and 'bad' audio output
    of AMIGA ?
    
    kindly regards		Vincent
     

    Atari buffs frequently over-sell the capabilities of the ST series.
    The Amiga offers more colors, better sound and multi-tasking. PERIOD.
    The Atari has a better looking monitor, lower price, faster CPU
    and a built in midi port.
    
    The midi port is about a $50. option on the Amiga, if you really
    feel you need it.
    
    Prices on the Amiga are dropping fast.  Software is becoming widely
    available.
    
    In the end, it depends on what you want your computer to do.  If
    you want desktop publishing, buy the Mac.  If you want an inexpensive
    PC that's fast, and has a beautiful hi-res monochrome display, get
    the Atari.  If you want incredible graphics and sound, get the Amiga.
    
    

    Yeah, what is this baloney about bad sound and no MIDI.  The Amiga
    costs more than an ST, but it does more.  If price is your only
    concern, you'll buy an ST.  If you care about features and can pay
    for them, the Amiga wins hands down.
    
    For me the ST is not an issue.  I bought an Amiga three months ago
    and I know I did the right thing, even though I could get one today
    for $300 less than I paid.  That makes it an INCREDIBLE deal today.
    
    Sometimes I think the reason Atari partisans spend so much time
    bad mouthing the Amiga is because they realize that if they'd only
    spent a little more money they'd have gotten a better machine.

    len.
    

    This is not a flame, but I thought that last message deserved a
    response.  The reason I chose a 1040ST over an Amiga, aside from
    price, is simply because the Amiga has, in my opinion, the WORST
    text quality of any computer available, while the ST in monochrome
    has one of the best.   (ST video bandwidth = 3*Amiga bandwidth!)
    
    I don't care about real-time graphics.  I DO care about text, as
    the uses I make of a personal computer require that I look at a
    lot of it.  Therefore I chose the computer with the best text quality.
    Others may have different priorities.  There are reasons for choosing
    an Amiga over an ST for some uses, and there are also good reasons
    for choosing an ST over an Amiga for other uses.  Try and keep more
    of an open mind.

 re.-5

  OK, where do you see Atari owners bad mouthing Amiga's? Take a look at 
this question in the ST notes you won't see anything like that. But 
here...

  Anyways, back to the subject. I think along the lines of reply .4 . 
You have to define what you want to do first & then buy the hardware. 
For example, if what you want to do calls for a lot of hardware 
expansion (hard drives, laser disk controlers, etc.) you can't beat a
IBM PC clone for price & compatibility. The Amiga is tops for animation 
& sound, the St for price & video quality, & the Mac (so far) for a 
unfiorm, easy to use human interface. Personaly I hope to own an Amiga 
some day.


								Dave

    .7:
    
    That may have come from some remaining open wounds from about nine
    months ago when the Amiga first hit the shelves.  At the time, it
    seemed as if ever Atari ST owner in the world took it as a personal
    insult whenever someone bought an Amiga, and had to yell at the
    new Amiga owner at great lenght on the subject.  Which spawned the
    great Atari ST vs Amiga war, in which amazing amounts of lies were
    propogated about BOTH machines by both camps.
    
    On the other hand, there we those of us that were just trying to
    get to learn something about our new Amigas by listening to the
    net.micro.amiga interest list.  At the time, there were two types
    of postings to this list:  Tutorials with public domain software
    as examples, and postings from ST owners who apparently didn't have
    anything better to do with their time than flame net.micro.amiga
    about how we were all idiots for buying Amigas.  Those of us not
    really interested in such wars got understandably tired of hearing
    from the ST camp.
    
    On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Amiga owners
    were doing the same thing to net.micro.atarist.
    
    But, in any case, maybe you can understand why a few of us are still
    a bit paranoid.  It still goes on, with a letter in a recent issue
    of Byte which had the property of being incorrect on almost every
    point.  As a result of this paranoia, I personally quit reading
    the Atari note file (has it been split?) and net.micro.atari, even
    though I own an Atari 8 bit machine, just because I got tired of
    hearing what a loser I must be.  If the flaming has died down in
    the last eight months, I have no way of knowing.  I'm sure a few
    others are in the same boat.

    Thanks, Dawn, for saying it so well.  Sorry if I offended any Atari
    owners, I personally think the Atari's a pretty neat machine but
    I prefer my Amiga.  Glad everyone's buying what they need, but
    public flames from Atari owners do continue, most recently in a
    lot of music and recording magazines where the Amiga continues to
    take gas for all the wrong reasons.
    
    My annoyance at some of the public positions taken regarding Ataris
    vs. Amigas may have been overstated, but I was responding to exactly
    the sort of closemindedness I was accused of.  Again, sorry if anyone
    misread me.
    
    len.
    

    Someone mentioned that they thought the text on the Amiga was "the
    worst I have ever seen".  I'm wondering what he is going to use
    the text for?  What software package is talking about?  As far I'm
    concerned the Amiga has fine text.  The text you print is only as
    good as the printer you use, and beside which text is nothing more
    that soft-fonts which can be changed...
                                             
    brian

    I suppose if you intended to use the Amiga as a wordprocessor day
    in and day out, then the quality of text on the screen would be
    an issue.  Text quality on the 1080 *could* be better, but "worst
    ... ever seen" *is* a bit harsh.  I find 80 column text on the 1080
    perfectly legible, if not to typsetting standards, but I really
    didn't buy the machine to process text.
    
    len.
    

    re: .10 and .11
    
    nonononono!!  I'm not talking about fonts.  I'm talking about video
    quality.  Fact:  The Amiga puts out a MUCH lower bandwidth video
    signal than the ST.  This does not detract noticably from graphics
    work, but it DOES detract VERY noticably from text quality.  This
    has nothing to do with software at all.  It is a hardware problem.
    
    When I said that the Amiga has the worst text I have ever seen,
    I did not mean it was unreadable or did not display properly.  I
    meant that the video quality was, overall, at a level where for
    primary, day in and day out text work, it was unacceptable to me.
    
    Like I said before, others may have different priorities and I'm
    sure they don't find the lower quality text a problem.  I do.  It
    simply depends on what you are using the computer for.  I hope I
    have made myself more clear.
    

    OK thanks to everybody,
    I'll probably buy an AMIGA (but end SEPTEMBER !!!) .
    Is there somebody who can give me the best configuration to do artistic
    graphic with audio in combination with video?
    I haven't nor video nor computer thus what type of each must I buy
    (for the computer the problem is now solved) VHS or 8 MM ?
    what are the 'thing' I must not forget when buying all the component
    of this chain?
    Don't forget that I'm in Europa and that your 'standard' are not
    ours !
    Do you know if it is possible to buy in America or England such
    european component (and by correspondance or something like that...)?
    
    pleased to read you again very soon 		Vincent 
     

    If I were in your position I would find a store with a reputation
    for good service, and tell them what I want to do.  Let them select
    the configuration and assemble it.  When they can demonstrate to
    you that it all works together and can satisfy your needs, buy it.
    Be prepared to pay full list price for this kind of service.
        John Sauter

    If you are interested in producing graphics for video, you will
    need the following 'things' as a minimum:
    
    Amiga with at least 512K and an external drive.  RGB monitor.  NTSC
    (or in your case probably a PAL) monitor.  
    
    DeluxePaint
    DeluxeVideo (allows you to combine sound and animation)
    Aegis Animator/Images
    
    Some kind of VCR
    
    
    Further enhancements for the future:
    
    Another VCR
    Genlock (Allows you to overlay computer graphics on live video)       
    Framegrabber (Allows you to 'grab' video images for manipulation)                                                  
    Additional memory (Allows you to do a lot more work)                                               
    Hard Disk                                           
    Additional software                                 
                                                        
    VHS or 8mm or Umatic or Beta.........that's up to you and what you
    plan to do with your work.
    
    For NTSC applications, it helps if you have a public domain program
    called "SETLACE."  This turns the interlace on, creating better
    video transfers of images.  (It looks terrible on your monitor,
    but great when played back off tape when this is used.)
    
    I hope this answers a few of your questions.  If you are interested
    in other applications, maybe someone else could fill you in.  As
    stated in the last reply, you dealer is, usually, also a very good source.
                                                     
    Randy
    

    Just to add another voice to the Amiga vs. ST argument, the ST does
    indeed have beautiful monochrome output.  The problem is, that 90%
    of ST owners (Atari's own figures) buy only the color monitor. 
    As you may know, the color monitor DOES NOT WORK in monochrome mode.
    As a result of the overwhelming majority of color users, most ST
    software will not support this mode!!  On other issues, the ST will
    never approach the expandability of the Amiga.  Today, AmigaDOS
    has full support for 1024 x 1024 displays, a 68020 & 68021 uProcessor
    set, and provisions for 8&1/2 megs of memory.  Add to that 25 DMA
    channels, and about eleventythree more graphics modes than the ST,
    and I'd say you've got a machine that has a pretty useful product
    life.  
    As to the Apple IIx, my brother-in-law works for Apple, and the
    claims have been wildly exagerated.  It will feature Amiga-like
    graphics, but no multi-tasking, no PC-compatibility, lousy sound,
    and far less speed than the Amiga.
    
    Hope I confused everyone just a bit more.
    

    What is the 68021?
    
    -jim

    Sorry, I was typing with my thumbs.  I meant the 68881 math
    co-processor.