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Conference hydra::amiga_v1

Title:AMIGA NOTES
Notice:Join us in the *NEW* conference - HYDRA::AMIGA_V2
Moderator:HYDRA::MOORE
Created:Sat Apr 26 1986
Last Modified:Wed Feb 05 1992
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:5378
Total number of notes:38326

2.0. "Amiga discounts" by SPHINX::DAVIS () Mon Apr 28 1986 11:19




  I've heard that Commodore is discounting an Amiga if you buy their 
monitor, but the last thing I'd want to do is stick such a nice machine 
with a second rate CRT. Around how much would an Amiga system box with
1 meg of ram cost me? I realize that it will take a side expander for
the memory but I like to work out of ram disk.


							DrD
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2.1What's Wrong with a 1080?ERLANG::FEHSKENSFri May 02 1986 19:587
    The system box will be $1295.  1 meg of ram from Tecmar has been
    advertised at from $900 to $1K.
    
    What's "second rate" about the 1080 monitor?
  
    len.
      
2.2SPHINX::DAVISMon May 05 1986 06:2513
RE.-1

  Perhaps "second rate" is the wrong choice of terms. Like any other 
display people have there own preferences. For example, I believe that 
DEC'S VR241 is one of the finest color displays I've ever seen. The text 
quality is remarkably good & the graphics are vivid.

  Back on the subject; naturaly no-one is going to buy a system box for 
the same price as a system box & 1080. Perhaps there is a market for 
used 1080's...

							Dave
2.3Please Say More...ERLANG::FEHSKENSTue May 06 1986 14:428
    Perhaps this should be the subject of a new note, or has been covered
    adequately elsewhere in some other conference, but your reply prompts
    me to ask "What should one look for in a good color monitor?"  What
    do people with "good judgement" or "refined tastes" in this area
    choose and why?  I'll admit to being completely ignorant here.
    
    len.
    
2.4My Monitor...and why.HYSTER::DEARBORNTue May 06 1986 15:0920
    re 2.3
    
    I use the Sony KV1311CR monitor because it gives me RGB as well
    as NTSC composite output.  This is important, as a video designer,
    because I must see how my graphics will look when transfered to
    standard video.  RGB may look glorious, but NTSC is what you watch
    on TV.  This monitor allows me to switch back and forth easily,
    to check colors, etc.
    
    If this is not important to you, than you might consider another
    RBG analog monitor.  The price of the Sony is being discounted by
    several distributors, so you should be able to find one for well
    under $500 dollars.  It is also a standard television, so you can
    watch you favorite shows when you are not using your computer. 
    In addition, there are several input/output connectors on the monitor
    for video and sound, making it even more flexible.  I am very pleased
    with mine.
    
    Randy
    
2.5Long Persistence Color MonitorsNOVA::RAVANTue May 06 1986 16:15143
A note on long persistence color monitors from net.micro.amiga:

Newsgroups: net.micro.amiga
Path: decwrl!pyramid!amiga!bobp
Subject: Long Persistence Color Monitors
Posted: 17 Apr 86 06:37:13 GMT
Organization: Commodore-Amiga Inc., 983 University Ave #D, Los Gatos CA 95030
 
 
TITLE: Long Persistence Color Monitors
 
I strongly suggest you look into the possibility of using a "long-persistence"
analog RGB color monitor with your Amiga computer.
 
Use of such a monitor allows you to use your Amiga at 640x400 resolution
without regard to choice of colors or contrast and the effect they may
have on flicker.  In a simple static image, this means that you can have
true 16-color displays where each color is choosen out of the Amiga
palette of 4096.  NOT JUST MONOCHROME!
 
Given the screen and COPPER software already in your Amiga, you can, of
course, have many more than just 16 colors simultaneously displayed
on your hi-res display -- mixed with even more colors from your low-res
screens simultaneously displayed!
 
Need I point out the advantage of having to use only one monitor for both
low-res and glorious, multi-color hi-res?
 
There are already Amiga application programs available which take advantage
of the Amiga's full-color hi-res displays.  For instance Deluxe Paint from
Electronic Arts.  At a recent IEEE conference, all of the technical slides
we presented about the Amiga were constructed ON an Amiga, in hi-res, using
Deluxe Paint.  Needless to say, the (er...) competition couldn't make such
a claim due to an unfortunate lack of sufficient color in THEIR hi-res.
 
In addition, the V1.2 system software will support standardized Workbench
display at 640x400 resolution as a Preferences selectable option.
 
The limiting factor, up to now, in getting people to use hi-res on the Amiga
has been annoying display flicker.
 
The physiology of flicker perception is pretty well understood.  The eye's
ability to perceive flicker goes up as the contrast between adjacent
horizontal lines goes up and, also, as the overall illumination (screen plus
room lighting) goes up.  Back when the current TV standards were designed,
the engineers realized that the physics of TV cameras would keep the
contrast down -- so they took the cheap way out and choose a 30Hz interlaced
frame rate.  It turns out the eye can perceive flicker at anything under
about a 50Hz rate if the contrast is high enough.  That's why you don't
see flicker on your TV screen until someone puts up a good contrasty image
such as the computer generated graphics they put on during football games.
 
The Amiga computer is designed to be compatible with the NTSC standard (which
defines broadcast quality TV).  That means we update our 320x200 and 640x200
displays at a 60Hz rate and we update our 320x400 and 640x400 displays at
a 30Hz rate (actually, every other line is displayed in one pass and then
the skipped lines are displayed in a second pass -- each pass takes a 60th
of a second, so the whole picture takes a 30th of a second to redisplay --
this is, in essence, what "interlace" is all about).
 
Because of that, if you have a sufficiently contrasty image (such as
alternating black and white horizontal lines (cringe!)) you will see flicker
on a regular persistence monitor -- such as the Amiga 1080.
 
Many people already use the x400 displays on the Amiga by dint of adjusting
the display colors, the room lighting, and the brightness of their monitor
display to the point where they, personally, do not see an objectionable
amount of flicker.
 
The other way to do it is to use a different style of monitor.
 
The competition does it by using a monitor (and the corresponding display
hardware inside the computer) that receives all 400 lines in one pass and,
thus, updates at a rate faster than the eye can follow.  That works fine,
but requires so much data to come out of the computer each 60th of a second
that they don't have sufficient memory bandwidth to put out lots of colors.
 
We suggest you use a long persistence monitor.  This is a monitor that uses
color phosphers on the display tube that retain the image of one display frame
just long enough for the computer to come around and put up another display
frame.  Effectively this eliminates flicker.
 
There are two commonly heard objections to long persistence monitors.  First
is the objection that they "smear" a moving image.  This is certainly true
to an annoying degree on MONOCHROME long persistence monitors where the
"real" image is the same color (usually green) as the "smeared" image left
behind when it is moved.
 
On a COLOR long persistence monitor there are 3 color phosphers in use.  The
green phospher retains the image longer than the other two so that whatever
smear is produced is, basically, green.  But in a color image, most if not
all of the "real" image is NOT green.  Thus the brain readily rejects the
smear and perceives only the moving real image.  My personal experience
with these monitors is that you don't "see" the smear unless you are "looking"
for it -- something which I didn't believe until I tried it myself.  We've
now got enough people using these beasties on Amigas that I'm happy to
report that everybody agrees.  You only see smearing on really active
animations such as the "Fields" graphics demo.  In practical applications
it is no problem.
 
The other common objection is that long persistence color monitors are too
expensive.  This is true now, but not likely to be true for long.  Basically
the pricing on these monitors is about where the pricing on regular
persistence analog RGB monitors was early last year -- AND FOR THE SAME
REASON -- namely that volume sales are just starting.  There is NOTHING
inherent in the long persistence monitor which should increase the price
over a comparably featured regular persistence monitor -- it's the same
electronics, just a different phospher painted on the tube.  I predict
that by the end of this year there will be no significant difference in
price between the two types of monitors.
 
Of course you have the PRICE ADVANTAGE of being able to use JUST ONE monitor
for both hi-res and low-res images.  With both resolutions in beautiful full
color.
 
-----------------
 
For those of you who'd like to try out a long persistence monitor, here
is info on two such monitors you can buy right now and use with your
Amiga computer.  Note that both of them are a little spendy, but that's
because both of them (particularly the Electrohome) are lab-grade high end
monitors.
 
Electrohome model #ECM1301, High Resolution Color Monitor.  Be sure to
order the RS170 RGB Module as well.  We recently purchased such a combination
for $1360 (plus tax) from Videomedia, 211 Weddell Drive, Sunnyvale,
Ca.  94089,  phone (408)745-1700.  If you're out of the area, you might
try getting in touch with Electrohome directly in Kitchener, Ontario,
Canada.  This monitor is truly a high end monitor with all the goodies
built-in, and thus the price.
 
Mitsubishi model #c-3479LPAG-WC, High Resolution Color Display Monitor.  The
WC in that model number means "with cabinet" -- otherwise you get something
that looks like the inside of your TV set.  We recently purchased one of
these for $1000 (plus tax) from Computer Modules, Inc., 1190 Miraloma Way
Suite Y, Sunnyvale Ca.  94086,  phone (408)737-7727.  If that doesn't do
it for you, I'm not sure how you can find your local Mitsubishi rep.
 
There are undoubtedly other such monitors around -- if you lobby with your
friends in the biz there will be even more (and cheaper ones) soon!  If
you find another one you like, let me know and I'll spread the word.
 
Enjoy!
2.7It's the Standard Promotion DealERLANG::FEHSKENSThu May 15 1986 14:1520
    Yeh, I got my Amiga at Wurlitzer.  It's $1295 for the system box
    and 1080 and a box of software and manuals.  What I was trying to
    say back in .1 is that because of the promotion, you can get either
    both the system box and the monitor for $1295, or just the system
    box.  The latter is obviously not sensible; i.e., the monitor's
    free, and even if there are better monitors available, you might
    as well take it.  There is no price reduction available for just
    the system box, so you can't get an Amiga system box cheap and buy
    another monitor for it.
    
    And yeah, all the good music software is coming "real soon now".
    They (EUW) were supposed to get the Mimetics Soundscape stuff last
    week but I haven't heard anything and they usually call me if they've
    got something they think I'd be interested in.  I've played with
    the Activision Music Studio, and it's not worth it if you're serious.
    (No MIDI input, inconsistent use of conventional music notation,
    etc..)
    
    len
     
2.8Good price?APOLLO::BERKSONTue May 27 1986 14:388
                             -< Good price? >-
    
    Club Computer in Harvard Square is selling the Amiga with 512K upgrade
    and Amiga color monitor for $1295. Is this a good price? the sale
    runs until the end of May. Also how essential is it to have an external
    drive? Thanks.
    
    Mitch
2.9About Right!NCCSB::JFISHERTue May 27 1986 16:0012
    
    $1295 seems to be the going rate for that combination, though the
    extra memory may not normally be included.
    
    I would highly recommend an external drive. With the extra drive,
    life is MUCH easier. Also some software packages require the external
    drive... I know that it drives up the price, but it is minimal in
    comparison to the benefit...
    
    Hope that helps!
    
    John