Conference 7.286::sports_91

The Rule for participation:

	Divide your weight in pounds plus height in inches by your I.Q.
	If this	comes out greater than 1 you can play.

TTom

    
    I'm in at 5'8", 277 lbs and on my way to a personal goal of 195-200.
    
    JaKe
    

I just wanna get bigger.

When I go to the gym, and lift and get pumped I feel like I'm on top
of the world.  I could just keep doing that forever...

I guess I build muscle pretty well ( should have started at 23 instead
of 33) and if I can get HUGE, hey, why not...


'Saw

    When I got out of the Air Farce in 1978, I was at about 174 and there
    was nary an ounce of fat on me.
    
    Now, 14 years later, I've kicked the cancer sticks(wnet cold turkey
    from between 2-1/2 to 4 packs a day) 13 years ago, now I got to kick
    the "eatting everything in sight" problem I've had for a few years.
    
    I got down to 201 in 1986, then went off of my program, kept saying,
    "next week I'll start to lose again", and now have 75-80 pounds to get
    off again before I'll be truly happy.  Hail, maybe the Mrs.'ll allow me
    back on top again!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

Does 6'4", 265 qualify?

    
    
    INTRUDER ALERT!!!!!!!!
    
    
    
    
    I'm avoiding the nutra sweet/weightwatchers/weightloss clinics like the
    plague mostly for economic reasons.
    
    Ya see, if'n I tried to do what Tommy Lasorda did, or what JaKe
    and 'saw are doing I'd most certainly go through a very emotional and
    mentally painful process because, ya see,
    
    
    
    I've gotten very confortable shopping in the boys department and the
    thought of going into the men's shop is scary!!!!!
    
    I remain,
    happily svelte!
    Kev
    

    Wentzell -
    
    Are you single???????
    
    
    True confession - this note is where I'm most likely to find the kind
    of guys that turn me on.  :-)
    
    A&W

    I'll let someone else touch this one...
    

    my wife says that... never mind
    
    Mike (6'2", 190)

A&W

Sounds like Scott is about Brian Shell's size....


Mike, that's pretty normal size.  Ever have a problem getting your butt
in a seat on Boston Garden?  If so, you might qualify....


'Saw

    Mr MOd, shut this Puny Topic down NOW !
    
    Dr Midnight - A REAL (5'9" 175 lbs) Main !

    re: Dock @5'9" tall
    
    Doc, been a while since I've seen you in person, but all I cain imagine
    is that you've grown yourself an awesome 'fro, sorta like an early '70s
    Artis Gilmore model, to compliment the elevators on the floor end... :-)
    
    HTH.
    
    Hawk
    

    
    Well I guess I have to report in @ 6'2" 262lbs (all muscle of course!)
    
    8^) That is betwix ma ears..
    
    
    Steve

    	Big Boys rejoice!  This week's SI and TSN baseball issues had
    Kirby Puckett and Cecil Fielder on their respective covers!
    
    				/Don

    Does 5'11", 195lbs qualify?
    
    Lat-man.
    

    	Do I qualify?
    
    	6 ft, 6 in; 285 lbs.
    
    	All muscle, of course.
    
    	Scott

    Scott, is that you out front of LJO every day holding up the US flag?
    
    Mark.

>    Does 5'11", 195lbs qualify?
    
    Lufay, start your own note for your wife.
    
    	--dan'l

    Dan'l, my wife is from Revere and is a body-builder.  Be nice or I'll
    send her brother Nick and cousin Nunzio to Charlotte.  Not that she
    couldn't kick your sorry wet noodle of an ass from here to yonder.
    
    hth,
    
    Mark.

This 'Big Boy' is a rollward over those last few! 8^)



Steve

    Scott, why didn't you tell us you were 6'4, we would have let you start
    on the hoop team. With size like that I know one team, you be welcomed
    by.
    
    Must be the new "weight fast" program, you're on.
    
    MM

    I've seen a video advertized called "Buns of Steel".  Maybe you guys
    ought to make your own.  It could be called "Buns of Sponge".  8^D.
    
    Puny Pete

    
    	Nice shot there dan'l!  I'm gigglin' my fool haid off.
    
    LuFay,
    
    	Ain't no way you're 5'11" unless you've been putting 
    	Miracle Gro in your corn flakes!
    
    Claybroon

    
    Hail, If Doc is 5'9" then Marky would have to be 5'11" at least.  Then
    again, I'd be about 7'4" and a starting center for da Pacers or
    something.
    
    Brews, a 6'1" 185 tweener

    	Mark,
    
    	Well, I used to look like a flag pole.
    
    	Now, I must look like the marshmallow man in Ghost Busters.
    
    	I'm gonna star in a movie called:
    
    	"Belt Busters"
    
    	Scott

    I think Ive made the transistion.. Short (5'8") but was at a whopping
    217... Now still 5'8" but down to 177 and still dropping slowly but
    suerly...
    							M_Air_Brooks

    
    I used to be 5'8", but last week on my boat a strange cloud wafted over
    me and now my clothes don't seem to fit any more.  I noticed I had some
    trouble reaching doorknobs, and now lately the cat has taken to burying
    me in his litter box.  Now I'm afraid to go into the cellar because of
    the spiders down there and the stairs seem to be too much effort to
    navigate.  Has anyone else experienced this?
    
    Dickstah
    

    I have, Dickstah, somewhere around 1970...
    
    Hawk
    
    

    
    >><<< Note 251.31 by MCIS1::DHAMEL "Iron Mike VS Queen of Mean on PPV" >>>

    
    >>I used to be 5'8", but last week on my boat a strange cloud wafted over
    ?>>me and now my clothes don't seem to fit any more.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    
    Dickstah, 
    
    That's what you get for eating too much cabbage!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
    

Hulk Hogan's weight, as listed in People Magazine, is 295, not over 300
as the WWF lists.

Hogan weight 230 when he was trying to break in, but didn't weigh enough,
so he started juicing...


I don't see why 230 isn't big enough.  Hitman is only listed as 245....




'Saw

    re .34:
    
    "Professional" wrestlers' announced weights are often 20-30 (or even
    more) pounds more than their actual weights...a guy who's 220-225 will
    be billed as 250, a 250 pounder becomes 275-280, and so on.
    
    Sports Illustrated once reported that the same thing often happens with
    NFL linemen.  They cited the case of a Vikings lineman from the "Purple
    People Eaters" (forget which one); this player was as a 280 pounder,
    but his true playing weight never topped 245 pounds.
    
    
    py
                                                                       

So then, Paul, I can "list" myself for Sports purposes as


	6' 285.....


Make a helluva nose guard, now, wouldn't I?



8^)


'Saw


PS I knew they did it for wrassling, but had never heard it about the NFL....

    
    Jan, 1991   -   5'11"  313lbs  Gotten so fat I had dunlapped desease.
    My belly dunlapped over my belt!!!!!
    
    
    Aug  1991   -   5'11"  265lbs  Wow!!!!!!
    
    
    Now   Still 5'11" but at 284lbs. Just like a yo yo...... Gotta get
    motivated and get to my goal of 235lbs. Kinda lost focus.
    
    
    Does that qualify as a big guy or a big yo yo!!!!
    
    
    Coach
    

    Allright Coach!
    That qualifies you as a good ol boy wif Redman, empty oil cans,
    Dunkin Donuts spitoon with a "I'd Smack Yo' Face but Shit Splatters"
    hat ( and a coach's whistle as accessory).
    
    HTH,
    MikeL
    

Big boys:

	John Hannah
	Jumbo Elliot
	LT  (massive guns on the guy)
	Iain Milne (Scottish International Prop)
	Kevin Duckworth
	John Daly
	Anthony Munoz
	Jeff Needle (just seeing if you were paying attention)


8^)

'Saw

    
    
    Well, lessee, fer the lasted week, I been eating REAL good, only walked
    twice(about 1 to 1-1/2 miles each time), played cards Saturday night,
    had 3 beers some rigatoni and cookies at the end of the night, after
    every meal I'm stuffed, and, after checking in at 277 lasted Thursday
    morning I got on the scale this morning and weighed
    
    (cue drum roll)
    
    a whopping 267!!!!!!!
    
    Lost 10 this week.
    
    Cut out all of the extraneous B.S that I were eating, dropped coke in
    favor of icewater, and feel great about it.
    
    Figure that after another week or so it'll settle down to losing 1-2
    pounds a week, but dropping 10 in the first week sure does wonders for
    the confidence, if'n ya know whut I mean.
    
    JaKe
    

Jake,

Go to the gym.  You work 2nd shift so the babes should be packing the
gym when you go.

Have a trainer set you up with free weights and be consistent in your
workouts.  Regular workouts are the key.

Lift, and progress, and be smart (don't go for three plates all ate once).


With your build, you'll be looking like the Warrior in no time.
The weight won't go down (muscle heavier than fat) but muscle also burns
more calories and your metabolism will speed up.....


You'll be the leanest and meanest 250 or so you've ever seen....


'Saw

    Actually, 'Saw, where I want to be is between 190 and 200, no bulk or
    nuthin'.  Once I get the weight down below 220, I cain start runnin'
    agin and then my weight will hold once I gets to the range I want to
    be.
    
    I guess, though, I could use the free weights to tone up once I drop
    this extra person I'm carrying around in the way of 75 extra pounds,
    though.
    
    thanks
    
    JaKe
    

    I'm about6'1, but only about 150 lbs.   But 100 pounds of that is my
    lats.
    
    JD

    Lats, sheee-it JD, if you stood sideways we wouldn't be able to see
    you.  In fack, I seriously doubt that you'd cast a shadow.
    
    If you were Pauxatawyny Phil, we'd always have an early spring!
    
    <stl/

    re .35
    
    Sounds like Jim Marshall or Carl Eller. Alan Page played at around 240,
    and by the end of his career often played defensive *tackle* at 225 ...
    
    Incredible.

    6-6, 215 and 148....
    
    Is the 148 yer hat size?
    
    many ;^)
    
    I remain,
    smaller, faster, smarter and better looking!
    Kev
    

    Nah, that's the cumulative IQ of his home town.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    New tally=263, down from 277lbs. on April 2nd.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Keep it up, JaKe, my friend.  That is most admirable.  Shave your head
    and pretty soon we can call you Yul.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    >>Keep it up, JaKe, my friend.  That is most admirable.  Shave your head
    >>and pretty soon we can call you Yul.
    
    I got a pretty good head start(no pun intended) on a Yul type haid.
    
    JaKe
    

I'm still holding at 245. 

This move has cut into my workout schedule, but nexted week should
take care of that...


'Saw

    Latest update
    
    April 2nd---277 lbs
    
    Today-------258 lbs and dropping.
    
    JaKe
    

    Yeah, in another 2 years, you cain leave this note !

    JaKe, you have my utmost respect.  Just ask anyone who's seen my
    utmost.  It's worth having the respect of it.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    Wanna borrow some of my clothes?
    
    
    
    Or Gregs?  The ones Digger_the_goatDog hasn't eaten?
    
    I remain,
    excluded from this club!
    Kev
    

Jake --

If you keep gettin' skinny, I'm gonna have to kick you outta this note!


That's great.


I've been doing some running, myself, so I can lose some of my
"First Round Draft Pick Offensive Lineman's Stomach"....


'Saw

    
>>Jake --

>>If you keep gettin' skinny, I'm gonna have to kick you outta this note!
    
    Better bring a lunch if you're gonna try.  I'm going to be a lean, mean
    fu..er...fighting machine!!!!  On second thought, better bring a small
    army!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    As of Thursday, I'm down to 254-1/2, a grand total of 22-1/2 lbs
    dropped in 4 weeks.
    
    JaKe
    

      Good boy JaKe!!!!  Keep up the will power! 
    
      I need to lose 15lbs me self.....I'm 5'10" and 190 lbs.
    
    	Tim

    Geez, Jake, you're catching up to me!  Better slow down or I'll have to
    grow 6 inches.
    
    j.

    	JaKe,
    
    	You're doing a great job. However, in all seriousness, I think
    	you're losing too fast. Two pounds a week is easier on your
    	system and becomes so natural you hardly have to think about
    	it.
    
    	My $.02.
    
    	Scott

    
    I was thinking the same thing, Scott.
    
    JaKe, if you lose weight too quickly, you are guaranteed to put it all
    back on, plus extra for good measure.  It's also not good for you
    physically (rapid weight loss can bring about all sorts of health
    problems.)  1.5 - 2 pounds per week is considered slow enough that 
    you will most likely never put it back on again.  
    
    Keep up the good work, but be careful!
    
    
    Dr. Cath   8-)

    The lastyed time I went about a weight loss program, I averaged about
    4.5-5.5 a week for the first 5-6 weeks, then settled into a 1-2 lb a
    week average.
    
    I think part of the reason the first 20+ fell of so fast is before I
    was eating like a horse and sitting on my dead ass all the time.  I'm
    eating real good, am seldom hungry right now, and am eating all of the
    right things, not too much fatty foods, lots of veggies, but keeping
    a well balanced diet.
    
    I'm taking the slightly slimmer me, along with my Wife, to Myrtle Beach
    nexted week for some golfing, some deep sea fishing, and a week loaded
    with I & I.
    
    JaKe
    

    So Jake...  How ya hitting them any how?  Out here in Colorado we
    can play almost year round.  I'm getting the scores way down now,
    low 40's to high 30's...  Started league play lasted(Tm) week,
    my partner and I took 30 points on a 48 point system and ended up
    in 3 place (We won it all in `91),  I hate sandbaggers.  Oh well,
    if you're out this way sometime this season we'll have to get together
    and play.  Golf is my favorate this right behind drinking beer.
    
    ;^)
    
    Big Game

    	RE: 251.66
    
    	JaKe,
    
    	I know I shouldn't ask, but...
    
    	What's "I & I" ?
    
    	Scott

>    	What's "I & I" ?
    
One you learn about in health class during puberty.

The other you start to learn in high school in the car with your
buddies (one of who is required to have a fake ID) as you cruise the
town for chicks on a Friday night....


'Saw

    I'll take 'Saw's explanation a little further,
    
    "Intoxication and Inter______"
    
    JaKe
    
    

    ...Interdependence?
                                          Denny

    Denny,
    
    Nope.  Although I will also be playing on a gold "COURSE".
    
    JaKe
    

    ...Interpersonalrelationship?
          

    	Well, thanks guys. I had the second word down; I couldn't
    	figure out the first.
    
    	On a slightly related tangent; was crewing for a rider
    	training for the Race Across AMerica. His dad and I went
    	up ahead to get some bottled water. The name of the
    	street where we were standing was:
    
    		COITVIEW
    
    	He and I both about ripped our britches with laughter.
    
    	Scott

    ...interleaving?

    Hit the OFFICIAL scale again today.
    
    New weight(drum roll please)
    
    251.
                                       
    Down 26 total.
    
    JaKe
    

>    251.
>                                       
>    Down 26 total.
    
Great!  I guess we can take you off the Endangered Species list and let
you go to the beach.

You're only 7 more pound than me now.


I ran twice this week (3.1 each time) and hope to go again tomorrow,
rain or no....


'Saw    

    Damn...  You boys is really BIG...  Hope both of ya are over 6'
    anyhow...   ;^)
    
    Big Game (who feels small in the company of you "plate stackers")

    Nah, Big 'N' Lame
    
    I'm a hair(no jokes from younz guys either) under 5'8".
    
    JaKe
    

Big Game --

I'm exackly 6'....


'Saw

    
    Well, lessee, since lasted time I weighed in, I been to Myrtle Beach
    and consumed tons of fresh(broiled) seafood, and some beer, but I was
    purty good considering.
    
    Yesterday's official tally was 248-3/4 lbs.  Thats a total of 28-1/4
    pounds dropped so far since April 2.
    
    Only 60 more to go!  (8^(*
    
    JaKe
    

    
    	Yo Jake, I know how you could get rid of 20 pounds of ugly
    	fat..... :^)
    
    	Claybone

    re.84
    
    <sniff> That Hurts, Claybone, really hurts! (8^(*
    
    JaKe
    

Congrats Jake.

That's DAMN good work.


I'm still plugging away.  Gotta get really serious, and am kind of bummed
now after the typical holiday weekend.  I'd been doing well up to
that point!


'Saw

I'm happy to report that in my efforts to make my weight more proportional to
my height, I have grown 7" to 6'4".  Only 3 more feet to go!

j.

Norm!!!!!!

If I had my 'drothers, I'd have this weight on a frame that was 6'6", and
I'd have decent speed.  Then I'd be a lock, but I'd be a fast lock at least...


'Saw

    Now, before I give the latest weight, I must preface it with a
    story/question.
    
    Since I got back from vacation, it's been a little hard to get
    "regimented" back into the losing weight thang.  I been eating a little
    more than I should, and hated the thought of steppeing on the
    *official* scale today, but the wish to get back on track sent me to
    the scale.
    
    Memorial Day weekend was a tough weekend for me.  Saturday was the kids
    school picnic, and it was at a local amusement park.  Needless to say,
    there was submarine sandwiches, pizza, etc. and I ate all of the above. 
    To top it off, there was a mondo good fresh made waffle cone, with ice
    cream, fresh strawberries, and whipped cream.  GUILT!!!
    
    Sunday was a picnic at my out-Laws.  Mucho food and brewskis.
    
    Monday was a cookout at a friends.  Again mucho brewskis and food,
    especially the best brownies I *EVER* tasted.  Again, mucho GUILT!!.
    
    Today I step on the scale, and for the lasted week, I lost 3 pounds. 
    I'm now down to 245-3/4.
    
    How the hail cain I lose when I pigged out all week????????
    
    Now I didn't shovel it in between meals, I just ate large meals. 
    Nothing in between('cept beer).
    
    JaKe
    

    Jake,
    
    Could be that with all that GUILT, you may have worried off the 3
    pounds!!!  GUILT is hard work!!!!!!
    
    
    Hal Tried Hunger,
    
    Nelly

    	Needle's right.  Whipped cream has a very long latency period.

    
    Jake,  I think you discovered my secret.  The more junk food you eat,
    the more you lose.  I can't remember the last time I had a salad, but
    have lost about 15 pounds since January.  I've been having ice cream
    everyday for the last couple of weeks to go along with a couple beers.  
    
    Ever notice that everyone on a diet is overweight?  and skinny people
    never go on them?  Howcum no one has made the connection before?
    
    
    Brews  

Actually, if you are exercising, beer is an excellent food to eat.

There is no fat in beer, and it's loaded with carbohydrates.

The only problem is that alcohol tends to cut your ability to perform 
exercise in warm weather.


When I'm trying to lose weight, a beer on Friday afternoon is my reward
for losing weight during the week.   You'd be surprised how a little
reward system works so well.....


'Saw

A guy I work with here who is a power-lifter is going to be in a wedding
soon.  I've met a couple of guys who will be in the wedding.

The smallest guy in the wedding party is 260.  And I ain't talking flab
either.  

I have a feeling they could take the wedding party and line them up on the
offensive line for the Pats or Giants....


'Saw

They've also found out that alcohol gets to and through your kidneys quicker
than anything else.

That's important for people who exercise a lot in really warm weather and
who sweat a lot.  In cases like that, it's easy for mineral desposits to
form in your kidneys (kidney stones).  Beer gets there quick and will flush
it out or prevent that, which is why it's not a bad thing to have a beer
after a hard workout....

But, like I said, I prefer to save a beer for a reward on a Friday night.
That way, when I'm running on Thursday night, and it's so damn humid you
sweat just standing still, I can get a mile or so out of just thinking
about that frosty cold one waiting on Friday after work.....


'Saw


PS  I figure I'm not gonna start burning any real fat until I get up around
    4.5 or 5 miles per run......

    
    Actually, aside from what Mac said about alcohol inhibiting the meta-
    bolizing of fat, beer is a poor fluid replacement after a workout be-
    cause alcohol will only dehydrate you further better to drink water
    or a sports drink.

Right.  You shouldn't use it as a fluid replacement.  

However, because it gets to your kidneys quicker than anything else, 
some running articles I've read have stated that having a beer, followed
by a lot of water etc, will have a beneficial effect on your kidneys.


Personally, after a rugby game or a long run, the LAST thing I want is 
a beer.  Usually a lot of water or 10K, followed by more of the same, and
then something to eat, is what I need....

THEN, I'll have some beers to be sociable....;^)


'Saw

Sorry to say this guys, but the other falsity about beer is the carbohydrates.
There are more carbs in 6 ozs. of orange juice than 12 ozs of beer.

All things in moderation...

=Bob=

But relative to the fat in beer, and the protein, there's a lot of carbs....



Let's face it.  Beer ain't got much nutritional value.  There's a lot to be
said for a beer if you're sitting in the back yard, a couple of steaks
sizzlin' on the grill, a couple of lobsters in the pot, and some nice babes
to look at.

But, if you're out there pounding the pavement, either training for Boston,
or the upcoming rugby season, and you're sweating your skinny or rather
ample ass off, beer ain't gonna do you much good....


I've got to get back into the swing of things:  low fat, hi-carb, let the
protein take care of itself diet, lifting, running....



'Saw


PS  and lots and lots and lots of crunches, all done while hoping my 
    abs tighten "flat" and not "out"....

Beer has lots of alcohol in it and is fattening.  Twinkies have no alcohol, so
they aren't fattening, right?

Perhaps this belongs in the Ask Jake note.

j.

    In all reality Beer is not that Fattening.  Lite beer from miller has I
    believe 86 Calories and no FAT... Believe me its the Fat that Kills you
    not the Alcohol.  I lost 40Lbs in about 15months (SLow and steady) and
    I could eat alot (alot of low fat foods that is).  The reason most beer
    drinkers are fat is because they also toss down 2 or 3 bar burgers and
    a bad of chips, plus those cheese and crackers on the bar and
    occasional late nite Pizza, there's were the belly comes from.  Look at
    it this way do you know any Alcoholics who drink alot of beer, do they
    have a beer belly...Not usally....
    						Beer is good food

Where I personally find beer to be a problem is that it's empty
calories, and it cuts my ability to perform in the heat.  And believe
me, when you're carrying what I carry on to the pitch, it's tough
enough to get around....

Had a MONSTER workout last night.  Looking to do 4 this afternoon
on the roads, but I'd settle for 3.1 again....


'Saw

    Sorry, M_Air, but science will disagree with you.

    
    C'mon, Mac, he says to believe him, and why shouldn't we?
    
    Brews

Other bad points of beer:

	It will dehydrate you, and when your body is dehydrated, you 
	will tend to retain water.  Not good.

	It makes you have wicked bad farts the next morning.

	

Other than that, it's great, in fact, I'll be Michael Jordan is an
avid beer drinker 8^) 8^) and I wanna be like Mike....;^)


'Saw

    Well I personally know 2 people who drink more beer a day then
    I drink non-alcoholic drinks in a week... YET THERE BOTH THIN.
    Why, ask why, they dont eat when before or after they drink :-).
    THERE IS STILL NO FAT IN BEER.  Yes a calorie is a calorie but
    if you east 5K calories with say 500 fat grams and I eat 5K calories
    with 50 Fat Grams youll be looking like santa in no time, I should
    stay around the same (Thats daily)  5K calores a day is burnable but
    you would never get to your fat reserves eating that many calories but
    you would not gain alot on only 50 Fat grams a day (Although I like to
    keep mine down around 20-30 a day).  Notice Im not saying its GOOD to
    drink a beer before/during/after a workout only that Beer and Beer
    alone is not really bad for you....... of couse if you want to pick at
    everything, everything is bad for you , sometime even the water :-)
    
    								M.a.B

Right,

We said there is no fat in beer a while back.  And most of the calories
are from carbs.

Carbs are a double-edged sword.  They're great for fuel if you're regularly
exercising, but if you're not, they'll pack on the pounds.

Plus, you have to look at different people's metabolisms.  I know folks that
can eat all kinds of junk food and never put on an ounce.   Conversely
I know folks that just whiff a twinkie and five pounds go on the hips.



Managed four miles last night.  I don't know if I'm burning off any fat,
but I know my mental discipline is getting much stronger....


'Saw

    
>>Carbs are a double-edged sword.  They're great for fuel if you're regularly
>>exercising, but if you're not, they'll pack on the pounds.
    
    Carbs also are good if'n your car doesn't have fuel injection.  (8^)*
    
    Schnort Schit Schmucks
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
    
    JaKe
    

>              -< Weight today, 244, down 1-3/4/week/ 33lbs total >-


Well, Jake, congrats.  You now weigh less than I do!    


I've been doing my running, and my lifting, and it's hard to tell
from the scale what's going on....


Keep those reports coming in.   

But, just do me one favor:

	At the nexted sports get together, DON'T do the Oprah
	thing, where you wheel in a wheelbarrow full of beef fat
	trimmings, equal to the weight you've dropped....


;^)


'Saw

    
>>But, just do me one favor:

>>	At the nexted sports get together, DON'T do the Oprah
>>	thing, where you wheel in a wheelbarrow full of beef fat
>>	trimmings, equal to the weight you've dropped....

    Nah, but what I WAS planning was to wheel in a wheelbarrow full of
    SLOF's, equal to the poundage I lost.
    
    The person monitoring my weightloss was happy to see that I ONLY lost
    1-3/4 this week.  She said that I WAS losing it too fast and had made
    me up the amount of food I was taking in so's to not have me lose at an
    "unsafe" rate.  If I cain keep up the 1-3/4 per week, on the average,
    then I only gots to do the "Loss thang" for another 31 weeks, then it's
    on to MAINTAINING my lower weight.  First thang I'm doing when I shrink
    outta some of my clothes is give them to Goodwill or someone who cain
    use them(like covering their tractor-trailer, or making tents or
    sumthin).  Found that if I kept larger clothes, then I'd just "allow"
    myself to grow back into them.  Not this time, it's thinner for life
    this time, and I've resolved myself that this is no diet, but a change
    in my way of life.
    
    JaKe
    
    

    
    
    Beer talk,
    
    hahaha
    
    Sheesh, pretty soon I 'spect to see you dude's along side me shopping
    for clothes in da little boy sections of Filene's!!!!!
    
    NOT!
    
    hehehehe
    
    Hey, F.E.W., gimme 'nother brewski - ok Dahling.....?
    
    Thanks,
    
    I remain,
    enjoyin this a whole lot!
    Kev_president_of_the_other_club!!!!!!!
    
    

    Hey,
    
    Get back to your own note, ya little runt!!!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

I actually put on three pounds this week.  But yet I was eating extremely
smart, nothing between meals, and the lo-fat, hi-carb deal.

I ran 3.1 on Sunday, 4 on Tuesday, 3 last night.  Worked out hard on 
Monday and Wednesday.

All I can figure is that I put on some muscle.  Hope I took off some
fat.


Looks like the Chainsaw don't get that beer tonight......


'Saw

    	Saw,
    
    	Well, muscle is heavier than fat, so....
    
    	I read a book by a woman who cycled around the world with
    	her husband. After the first couple of weeks in the US, she
    	was actually heavier than before, but that was because she
    	lost some fat and put on more muscle.
    
    	Scott

Well, I figured that the miles I ran, and the eating less surely would
help me lose, but the intensity of the weight workouts has increased,
so that might explain it.

I did light squats on Wednesday night (light squats always hurt more
than my heavy nights) and I still managed to do a torturous 3 miles
yesterday, so perhaps I did add some muscle....

I hope!

(At least I know I don't have a debilitating disease -- not if I'm putting
weight ON)....


'Saw

    
    'Saw the only way to tell if you put on muscle is with a 
    measuring tape. If your waist aint getting bigger than your
    not putting on fat. Measure up dude! Lat spread, Pecs, 
    biceps, quads, proppbutt, etc... something must be getting
    larger! 8^))))
    
    
    Steve

>    'Saw the only way to tell if you put on muscle is with a 
>    measuring tape. If your waist aint getting bigger than your
>    not putting on fat. Measure up dude! Lat spread, Pecs, 
>    biceps, quads, proppbutt, etc... something must be getting
>    larger! 8^))))
    
    
Arms are getting bigger, chest has gotten lots bigger since I started
in November.   

Legs are getting bigger (Mike, the trainer, noticed this the other night).

I'm sure my butt is getting bigger too, because squats do that.

I'm starting to get the V shape, at least in the upper parts. If I can
lose the gut, and the love handles (lots and lots o' running) then I'll
have that.

My stomach, I fear, is not one that will flatten like Arnold's, but
rather the muscles grow outward, like powers lifters (remember Vasily
Alexayev) and offensive linemen.

So I think I am putting on muscle, and i've been eating right so that
I shouldn't be packing on any fat.....  It IS disconcerting to get
on the scale and see it go up though....


'Saw

    The other way to tell is my getting a test on a regular basis that
    tells you how much body fat you have.  It's virtually impossible any
    other way.
    
    John

Yeah, but that would cost money....8^)

Actually, I wish they'd do pinch tests at the gym.  It'd be an easy way
to get a general idea.


'Saw

    'Sawmains, with virtually every body part of your's getting bigger, I'd
    be a bit concerned if I were you about one very vital body part that
    will appear to be getting smaller in proportion to the rest.  Or, are
    you bulking it up to and just not telling us...  :-)
    
    Hawk
    

Hawk,

Things are in proportion, believe me.  The important thing has to do with
the gut.  Get that flatter, and everything is fine.  It's when you're
gut hides it that problems happen....8^)


'Saw

    
    But 'saw, aren't you excercising ALL your muscles? 
    
    Brews

    'Saw... it would only cost something if you were to have the fat 
    measured in a water test.  Shouldn't cost anything to have someone
    measure you with calipers.  If the percentage of your skin fold 
    total is over 25%, you be bummin'.  30% if you happen to be female.

    
    'Saw, if you're working out for rugby you should add power cleans to
    your routine if you're not doing them already. They build strength and
    explosiveness like practically no other exercise.

    Is that what they call it, power cleans?  Heck, I've been doin' 'em
    since high school.  Rarely a drop remains in my beer cans...
    
    Hawk
    

    Weight this A.M., 243.  Lost 1 pound this week, total now stands at 34
    pounds lost in 11 weeks.
    
    The initial 5-6 pound a week loss has levelled off now and it seem that
    i'm settling in to a nice 1-2 pounds a week.  Hail, this lasted weekend
    I sorta over-indulged on the burgers and hot dogs, but got right back
    in gear Monday and managed to still lose this week.  At the rate I'm
    losing it right now, I should reach my goal in about 30-35 weeks, as
    long as I remain faithful to the lifestyle change's that have been
    implemented.
    
    lighter and lighter
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
    Found another benefit to losing weight.  Before embarking on the
    mission to become the slimmer, trimmer JaKe, my golf game was the pits,
    somewhere around 105-115 per 18 holes.
    
    Since starting the weightloss thang, I've broken 100 5 times(usual year
    I only break 100 once, MAYBE twice.)
    
    I guess since I'm not "swinging around the barrel", it's a little
    easier to hit the damned ball.  Today, thanks to an 8 on the lasted
    hole, I shot a 97(toooooo many 3 putt greens).  
    
    Guess there's more to it than just being healthier, eh?
    
    JaKe
    

    re-,1
    
    
    	Too cool Jake...
    
    B.A.

    Anyone ever use amino acids to lose weight?  A woman I work with showed
    me these pills that had 3 types of AAs in them, and on the label, it
    claimed that by taking 4 pills on an empty stomach before going to
    bed, your body would burn 1200 calories.  She claims that it works, and
    that the only side-effects were that it makes you pee like a racehorse
    the next morning, and if you take them on a not-so-empty stomach, you
    get unbelievable heartburn.  She also claims to have lost 25 pounds in
    6 months by using these amino acids pills only about 3 times a week on
    average, and with no change in eating habits and no exercise at all...
    
    I'm not a "big boy", but I do have a big belly.  No, really!  :-) 
    Actually, my comfortable weight "window" is 172-178, but I just cannot
    drop the 15 lbs. to get there.  Although I'm very skeptical about
    putting something in my empty stomach that'll burn that many calories,
    supposedly, I'm at a point where I just might try them...
    
    Any pros or cons?
    
    Hawk
    

    You gonna buy some hair tonic next, Hawk?
    
    ;^}

    Hawk I tend to think that going to bed EVERY night with an
    empty stomach would cause anyone to drop some lb's.  Eating
    at night is a tough habit to break!
    
    Jimbo

    It will help a lot if you don't eat after 8pm.
    
    Mike

    Ammino acids are the building blocks of protein, there are 7 ammino's
    that make up a complete protein. 
    
    How this person is losing weight by taking ammino's, I believe you
    stated they were taking three types is beyond me. I have never heard of
    such a thing. Chances are they are doing something else to loose the
    weight and thinking that the magic amino  pill is the cure. Highly
    unlikley.  
    
    The only thing I would say is that this person has expensive urine.
    
    Re. Hawk,
    
    
    You said that you could not get that last 15 lbs off, and that by maybe
    taking the ammino's would help. Rule number one in weight reduction is
    that you cannot spot reduce fat. All the situp in the world won't make
    you stomach go away, but they will probably enlarge your obliques,
    worsening your overall appearance.
    
    Heavy duty aerobic workouts and a low calorie,low fat, high carb diet
    should do the trick.
    
    -TH
    

    > It will help a lot if you don't eat after 8pm.
    
    I don't eat after 8pm!  I may have a beer or 2 or 6 :-), but I don't
    eat!
    
    Hawk, who weighed in the 120s in high school, and used to eat a dozen
          Chips Ahoy's with a quart of milk every night before going to
          bed and never gained an ounce!
    

Biochemical Police Alert!

>    Ammino acids are the building blocks of protein, there are 7 ammino's
>    that make up a complete protein. 

Make that 7 essential and about 20 that make up protein. The problem with
taking amino acids is that what happens to them when they get into the
metabolic type events is very dependent on the overall body chemistry. If
the body is deficient in starch or fat type energy sources, it will make
these from the amino acids. The problem with this is that the leftover
ammonia from the amino acid has to be dealt with in terms of toxicity and
pH. Taking more amino acids may help with keeping these around so that
protein can be built with them but may only aggravate the overall
chemistry.

BTW, there are a lot of these type discussions in DKAS::FLEX.

TTom

    
    >  Hawk, who weighed in the 120s in high school, and used to eat a dozen
    > Chips Ahoy's with a quart of milk every night before going to
    > bed and never gained an ounce!
    
    The Crazy Met who still does, and still can.
    
    

>    Hawk, who weighed in the 120s in high school, and used to eat a dozen
>          Chips Ahoy's with a quart of milk every night before going to
>          bed and never gained an ounce!
    
    but you were more active then and probably only drank on weekends ;-)

    
    He also had sex more often.  8^)  <----been gettin in trouble lately
                                           for not putting these in.
    
    
    Brews

    Hawk, give up the beer and you'll lose that extra 15 lbs. pretty
    easily.

    Jake, I'll be impressed when you can get by me deep .... :-)

      Hawk,  just drink really cheap lite beer and that will give you the
    urge to quit drinking,  thus losing the extra baggage.
    
    or
    
      The aerobics type stuff will do.
    
    
      Tim

    Docmidracingstripeintheshorts:
    
    Get up a game and a dry field(never could run on mud) and we'll give it
    a try in September!!
    
    Maybe I'll wear my electric Steeler hat and blind ya(or take off the
    hat and blind ya if it's a sunny day) then slip by ya for the 6 pts.
    
    JaKe

Hawk, 

Go for a walk for about 20 minute a day.  A good brisk walk.  Watch
what you eat, and as the fat comes off, check your stomach, and do
situps if you need to.

Stairmaster is great too.


'Saw

    Official Thursday morning weight today, 241.  Down 2 lbs in the lasted
    week, and 36 pounds total in 12 weeks.
    
    I'm going to be on vacation nexted week, so won't be getting on the
    official scale for 2 weeks.
    
    Bought some new pants Sunday, before I started on the changing my
    eating habits for life thang, my waist was about 46-48 inches.  Sunday,
    I bought some pants that are 40 inch waist.  Damn what a great feeling.
    
    Now, to keep it going like an energizer battery, keeps going, and going
    and going.....
    
    JaKe
    

    >>Hey, didn't you just get back from vacation?
    
    Just got back from the I & I vacation, with no kids in tow, on the 16th
    of May.
    
    This one is a R & R vacation, we're taking the little JaKes and heading 
    for Cape May Point, N.J. fer a week at the ocean again.
    
    Then nexted month, we're heading to Lafayette Indiana, and Accord,
    N.Y(all in one week) to see relatives.
    
    BUSY SUMMER!!
    
    JaKe
    
                                                           

    JaKe,
    
    Ya gonna swing by Arlington, Vt. to buy a Corvair?
    
    Kev
    

    Nah, Kev, ain't got a garage to keep the thang in, YET!!
    
    JaKe
    

    Ever hear of a tarp?

    Tarp, garage.
    
    
    Ain't got space to keep a project car right now, regardless.
    
    JaKe
    

Jake,

I cannot believe your waist was THAT big.  It surely didn't look that
big!


I'm currently wearing a size 38 in Levis 540s or Lee's Easy Riders.
But, lasted week I lost NINE pounds.

(okay, it was a tough week -- didn't eat and what I did came right back
up, okay?)


My last weighin was at 239......


Keep up the good work.   With you leading the way, you'll keep me
inspired....


later,
'Saw

    
>>Jake,
    
>>I cannot believe your waist was THAT big.  It surely didn't look that
>>big!
    
    Yeah, Sawmain, it was that big.  Wore 46's, but they were tighter than
    a 16 yr ol...er, pretty tight.
    
    Got tired of getting on site, squatting down and losing the ass out fo
    the pants.  The wife finally told me that she'd no longer fix them
    cause they didn't fit me anymore anyways.
    
    Trouble is, when I lasted weighed 200, I was in 34's, and medium
    shirts.  Had a good supply of clothes then.  When I was wandering
    around at 265-270 for almost 2 years, Mrs. JaKe decided I'd probably
    never fit thes clothes again and Goodwilled them all.
    
    Now I gotta drop some bucks on wardrobe in the future, but it's worth
    it.
    
    I'm going to get rid of all of these big clothes as I shrink out of
    them, and then, when I gain a couple of pounds, I'll have nothing to
    "grow into".  I had lots of BIG clothes lasted time, and it was no
    problem getting fat again cause I didn't have to buy any clothes.  NOT
    THIS TIME!!!!!!!
    
    Thinking thin, forever
    
    JaKe
    

    	Geez, all we need are a few tears and this note would be just
    like one of those Richard Simmons CommercialDramas...

    
    Give it up, Jake.  Middle age spread in gonna creep up and getcha,
    unless you want to spend the rest of your days eating rabbit food
    instead of sausage, pizza, real butter, ice cream, beer, chips and
    dips, hot dogs, cheesecake, and all those other sins that make life
    worth living.  Remember, Keith Richards outlived Jim Fixx.
    
    Dickstah, also trying to watch the weight, blood pressure, and
    cholesterol levels.
    

Jakester

Just for snickers, I have kept a couple of pairs of my "fat boy" pants.  
Every once in a while, I will put them on, hitch them up, let go and watch 
them fall off me.  Good ego boost.

=Bob= who used to wear a 34" waist when I was chubby

Geez, right  now I'm in my BIG pants.  32 waist. 

;-)

       Yeah, but what about the 54" chest JD!!
                                      Denny

54" chest - Denny, that's before I started filling out.   I had a 54" chest
in High School~

JD

    34" inch waist when I was chubby,
    32" is BIG
    Hey Bobby and JD,
    Do me.
    

Yea, Mikey - keep eating those cheesburgers and fries for lunch...

    What!
    After ah mercilessly toyed with you running that 5 miles a few weeks
    back! Even tho you was still lame after runnin' the Marathon, ah had
    no mercy. 
    
    Hey, 160 lbs on a 5'8 frame ain't that bad!
    
    8^),
    MikeL
    
    And I try to stay away from burgers and fries, Bobby. Ya caught me
    in a weak moment!!
    

    
    >>Give it up, Jake.  Middle age spread in gonna creep up and getcha,
    >>unless you want to spend the rest of your days eating rabbit food
    >>instead of sausage, pizza, real butter, ice cream, beer, chips and
    >>dips, hot dogs, cheesecake, and all those other sins that make life
    >>worth living.  Remember, Keith Richards outlived Jim Fixx.
    
    But Dickstah,
    
    Even though I been eating some rabbit food the lasted 2+ months, I been
    eating all of those other thangs you mentioned, too.  It's just that I
    cut the quantities down from what I was eating before.  Hell, before,
    to wiegh out the food I'd eat for dinner, I woulda had to weigh my car,
    then fill it up and drive onto the vehicle scale again to get a
    reading.
    
    Now I cain do it on one of those little kitchen scales.
    
    Cape May Point, N.J., here I come!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    Sheez, Monday, vacation's over, I gotta be at work.
    
    Could anything else go wrong??  (8^(*
    
    Spent lasted week at Cape May Pt., New Jerkey.  The place we stayed at
    supplied ALL of the food, and beer too!!  (8^)*
    
    I have returned carrying probably an extra 4 or 5 pounds, but I had one
    helluva time.
    
    Now, it's back to becoming the slimmer, sleeker JaKe.  
    
    Rabbit fooding it again!!
    
    JaKe
    
    
    
    

    Well, after gaining 4 on vacation, I settled into a week of trying to
    get back on track and start losing again.  
    
    Only problem was that 4th of July picnic with all of the food and free
    flowing beer.
    
    Still managed to lose 3/4's of a pound this week.
    
    Weight now stands(or sloshes) at 244-1/4, which is a total loss of
    32-1/4 lbs since April 2.
    
    JaKe
    

You load 45 tons, and whatta ya get?
Another day older and deeper in debt,
St Peter don't ya call me, cause I can't go,
I owe my soul to the company store....


8^)

Isn't moving rock and granite a sport for wussies whos mommys won't let them 
play soccer?

    
    Soccer players' rocks are all in their head.  Their mommies (please
    note correct spelling) don't let them play with rocks, as they might
    get hurt.  They could put someone's eye out, you know.
    
    Brews

    
    BTW--What are soccer players doing in this note, anyway?  Dontcha
    belong in the little boys note?

>    Mike H-- I got about 4-5 tons of river rock left over, need any (free,
>    just come pick it up)?
    
    Did you get that pink stuff or is it the mainly rock?  
    
    Mike

I'm no soccer player - not tough enough.

    
    I got big, mainly rocks.  I also have some river rock in my front yard.
    8^)
    
     
    Seriously, if you want some, I've got a few tons left over. 
    
    Brews

    Would that make you Doc's brother or puppet?

Well, I was out in Pennsylvania over the weekend, in the Poconos to
see the Miller Genuine Draft 500.

I've got to say that I felt downright SKINNY out there.


I don't know what it is about that section of PA, but I stayed in Wilkes-Barre,
hung out at the track, and probably 90% of the men I saw had wicked big
bellies.  It was uncanny.

And some of these guys had bee-yoo-tee-ful women on their arm.  I just don't
get it.  

I guess the exercise of choice in that area is the 12oz curl.  8^)


Of course, I'm not making disparaging remarks, here, I'm really not.  I'm
saying this all in good fun, but I realized over the weekend, that
my stomach is not as big as I thought it was......


'Saw

>And some of these guys had bee-yoo-tee-ful women on their arm.  I just don't
>get it.  
    
    They're probably very good at boating.
    

       Just like Las Vegas Saw. You see all these old guys bringing their
    daughters to the fights!
                                  Denny

>I think the driver was an Allison (sp), and was kinda nudged from behind by
>the guy that eventually went on to win the race.   It was wild, the car 
>flipped something like 11 times.


Well, he and Darrell Waltrip were going for the same piece of track.
I thought, from what I saw in person, and what I saw on the highlights
that Davey Allison (the guy who crashed) moved in a tad too soon.


Interesting comment I heard during the ARCA drivers meeting on Saturday.
(I was sitting on pit wall at the rear of the meeting).  The ARCA
official said:

	Okay, we're on live TV today, so don't do anything stupid.
	If you look in your mirror and there's a guy there, and
	you look back and he's gone, there's only two places he
	can be -- on your left or your right.

I never realized what went on in a driver's meeting... now I do.


'Saw

    re: the crash at Pocono 500
    
    What was amazing was that Davey Allison *only* broke an arm and a
    collarbone.  I was watching the replay at the bar, but missed what the
    sportscaster said about what happened to the driver, and I
    automatically assumed that he must've been keelt.  I realize that they
    design these cars to withstand incredible forces, but what that car
    went through and the driver pretty much walking away from it is truly
    amazing...
    
    Hawk
    

    ...couldn't a 3rd option be: he went over the wall?
                                Denny

>    ...couldn't a 3rd option be: he went over the wall?
>                                Denny


Yeah, I suppose, but they haven't had that happen in a while.  The fences
keep them in pretty well.


Actually, the driver's meeting was pretty technical in other ways.
ARCA tends to be a lot of younger drivers learning the ropes, hoping
to get a ride on the Big Boys circuit.  A lot of the rules were discussed,
a lot of the other things like that.

I was about 10 feet from Richie Petty, who I believe is Maurice Petty's
son, and Richard Petty's nephew.


'Saw

    Yeah, those NASCAR type drivers ain't allowed to chew gum whilst
    driving cause they fergit they're driving a car while they concentrate
    on chewing.
    
    JaKe
    

>    	Cool!  I've never met Ned..he's knows his racing!  I have met
>    Dr.J..he'a a good ole State alumi. Real interesting dude!
    
We had just come up through the tunnel into the pit area on Saturday, 
and I looked up and he was headed into the press center.  My brother
had the program and the pen, and I said "Hey, there's Ned".  My brother
rushed over, got Ned's autograph, and we exchanged pleasantries for a
minute or two, and then Ned had to go.

Regarding the Doc, my brother and I were debating which he makes more 
money at -- being a trauma specialist or an ESPN dude.  I think my
brother was right when he said trauma specialist, but Jerry knows his
racing, that's for sure....


'Saw

    Lasted THursday II got on the official scale and after being on
    vacation # 3, I lost 2.25 lbs for the 2 weeks.  Weight is back down to
    242, 35 total lost. 
    
    JaKe
    

    For the lasted week, I been playing "This Old F#$%ING House" again,
    turning a large bedroom into a slightly smaller one with a hallway, and
    the bedroom hasn,t got the window in yet, so it's been a sweatbox.
    
    Stepped on the official scale today, and, even though pizza and beer
    was the fare Sat. night, and Italian subs Sunday, I lost 3 lbs for the
    week.
    
    I've broken into the 230's, weighing in at 239 today.  Only 50 to go to
    get to my goal weight.
    
    JaKe
    

    Got on the official weighing device today.
    
    Now down to 237, which is 40 lbs. down from when I started in April.
    Waist has gone from 46 to 40 in.
    
    JaKe
    

    What a 2 weeks since I lasted got on the scale.
    
    Had our DECService awards weekend a week and a half ago, too much drink
    and food, then a picnic with the out-laws lasted weekend, again too
    much booze and food, then the stress of the cuts coming in our office
    didn't help(our office lost 5 people, including the only other person
    on 2nd shift beside me), so's i got on the scale today and weighed in
    at a hefty 241 1/2, up 4-1/2 lbs in the lasted 2 weeks.
    
    Well, guess I gotta get my butt in geear and start losing it again.
    
    JaKe
    

    mebbe that butt could start to play rugby?
    
    rumor has it it schleps!
    
    Kev
    

Well, Jake is not the only one who has been on a program of sorts.

I have too.


At first I was too embarrassed to put anything in here, becuase I was really
dejected, but over the last couple of weeks I've learned some things,
and hopefully, my experience might be educational to some other folks who
are concerned with the same thing.

At the beginning of September, they had a body fat content testing at
the gym.  The night before, I was working out, joking with Mike (my 
trainer/mentor) and said "Oh hell, I'm sure I'm about 33% fat".
Mike looked at me and said "No way".

The next day I went down, plopped down my $5 and got tested.  I was totally
shocked at the results:  I was 30.5% body fat.  The papers we got with the
test classified any man over 25% as "medically obese".  By contrast,
normal was 8-15%, and a world class body builder would be 6-10, while
a marathoner would be 4-9.

I was crushed.  It got worse when I realized that, of the 242 pounds I
had weighed in at, fully 74 pounds was fat.  To me, that was, in my 
mind, the equivalent of me carrying around a 10 year old made solely
of fat, with me....

Well, they say that you have to hit bottom before you can start pulling
yourself up, and I realized it was time to make some major changes
in my diet.


All too often I'd been getting home, throwing a couple of burgers on the
grill, more than likely cheeseburgers too.  Keilbasa, hot dogs, knockwurst...
Those are all some of the Chainsaw's favorite foods.   They're also
all loaded with fat....

A quick consultation with my buddy the marathon runner gave me some good
diet ideas, and a further discussion with Mike gave me some more.  In addition,
I began the practice of writing down EVERYTHING I eat.


The first thing I noticed right off was that eating right was fairly 
inexpensive.  A lot less expensive than eating out in a burger joint.
And it wasn't time consuming.  A lot of what I'm eating at home takes
maybe 15-20 minutes to prepare, and becuase there's just me, there's
lots of leftovers, which means lunch the next day, or no cooking the
next night.


Since the beginning of September, I've cut as much fat out of my diet
as possible.  It's been pretty simple, actually, just reading some 
labels, using common sense, and being just a tad self-disciplined.

I've been running (which I had started before my test) and lifting
also.

I've noticed that just by cutting the fat out I have a lot more energy,
I'm a lot less hungry, and I'm a lot more alert.

The week I was tested, I started out at 245.  Tomorrow morning is the
official weigh-in for the week, but a sneak preview this morning (had to
see) shows me down around 236-237.

The next fat test is on October 7th.  I can't wait.  I have a bet with
my brother, that whoever loses more gets a free Sundae from the
other one.  Nothing like a little reward incentive.


I figured I'd put this note in here because I'm sure putting the weekly
reports in helped Jake.  This will help keep me on the straight and
narrow also....


Getting less fat as the days go by,
Chainsaw

    
    	Atta boy 'Saw!
    
    Claybone

    
>>had weighed in at, fully 74 pounds was fat.  To me, that was, in my 
>>mind, the equivalent of me carrying around a 10 year old made solely
>>of fat, with me....
    
    Not to mention the implications that the 10-year olds parents would
    have made!!!
    
    (8^)*
    
>>All too often I'd been getting home, throwing a couple of burgers on the
>>grill, more than likely cheeseburgers too.  Keilbasa, hot dogs, knockwurst...
>>Those are all some of the Chainsaw's favorite foods.   They're also
>>all loaded with fat....
    
    'Saw, It took me a while but I finally found substitutes for all of the
    above, made from turkey, or chicken.  You cain use ground turkey for
    the burgers, and with a couple of spices thrown in, ya never would know
    the difference.  Plus, there'r turkey hot dogs and turkey kielbasa and
    even turkey knowkwurst that you'd be hard pressed to tell from the real
    thang.
    
    And a lot of these items are better than 90% fat free.  Also, fish,
    excepting mackerel, salmon and a couple of others, is GREAT for ya(as
    long as ya don't deep fry it or fry it in oil)
    
    I haven't been as good recently as I was in the early days, and I have
    to get back on track.  I'd bet my fat content is off of the scale.
    
    JaKe
    

>    Not to mention the implications that the 10-year olds parents would
>    have made!!!
>    
>    (8^)*


If you see a missing kid alert on American's Most Wanted, and the
kid is all lumpy, white and kind of looks like suet, just call
1-800-CRIME-92 and tell them I've got the kid....


    
>    'Saw, It took me a while but I finally found substitutes for all of the
>    above, made from turkey, or chicken.  You cain use ground turkey for
>    the burgers, and with a couple of spices thrown in, ya never would know
>    the difference.  Plus, there'r turkey hot dogs and turkey kielbasa and
>    even turkey knowkwurst that you'd be hard pressed to tell from the real
>    thang.

I hear ya.

I've been doing a lot of things with pasta and tuna, and various veggies.
It's so easy to do up some pasta, mix some tuna (or browned ground turkey)
in there, some peas or whatever, and it's a quick feed, that tastes good
and is full of energy.

Another cool thing is brown rice, mixed with tuna and a shot of
Worcestershire sauce..
    

I'm saving things like steak, ribs etc for a treat.  Once I get past
this first month, I figure I can have a steak or something once 
every two weeks and it shouldn't hurt anything...

I'm being very strict on one thing however -- pizza once a month and
no more....  that's a tough one!

    
>    I haven't been as good recently as I was in the early days, and I have
>    to get back on track.  I'd bet my fat content is off of the scale.
    

Just keep at it big guy.  By the time we're done, we'll be two lean,
mean, muscle machines....


'Saw

    
>>I've been doing a lot of things with pasta and tuna, and various veggies.
>>It's so easy to do up some pasta, mix some tuna (or browned ground turkey)
>>in there, some peas or whatever, and it's a quick feed, that tastes good
>>and is full of energy.

    I hear ya.  I make a pasta and sauce combo using ground turkey, HOT
    turkey sausage, and tomato sauce and spices that's out of this world. 
    And it only takes about 25 minutes from fridge to plate.
    
    Julia Childs II
    
    Er, I mean
    
    JaKe
    
    

I won't bore you guys with the things I did to lose 30 pounds, but you are on 
the right track.  A rule of thumb is not to eat any meal that contains more than
30% of its calories from fat.  The formula to figure it out is this:

				Total Calories
		-------------------------------------------------------
		Grams of fat X 9 (there are 9 calories to a gram of fat)
		
If you stay active, you would be surprised at how much you can eat, and lose 
weight.

=Bob=

    	Geez, all we need is a couple of women crying and this would
    be just like a Richard Simmons commercial.
    
    				/Don

    Oh thut up you thilly thing, thlasher!!
    
    Richard
    Richard JACOB, that is!!!
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Some turkey products taste good as substitutes, most don't IMO.  The
    best one I can think of is Wild Turkey instead of beer.  I tried smoked
    turkey, but it's not the same as a cigarette.
    
    Dickstah
    

    Leave it to Dickstah!!!
    
    BTW, you coming nexted Wednesday, TO THE GET TOGETHER I MEAN!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

You cain talk all you want about women crying, but the other night
in the gym one of the most babe-a-licious ladies in the gym called
me over and told me I looked like I was losing weight.

What a head rush.  

I'm feeling good, my stomach is gettin' a little smaller, I'm feeling
pumped, and on the whole my outlook is 100% better....


It's like my buddy the marathon says:

	
		There are NO excuses.


'Saw

    Thanks for a few ideas of what to bring (besides my Coke) to OPP
    next week.
    
    I think the theme could be "Good Food *I* can eat and *YOU*
    can't"!!!!!!
    
    
    yeah, that's the ticket.
    
    I remain,
    amused by the relocated ::Cooking notesfile!
    
    ;^)
    
    Kev
    

hey, before you know it, Jake and I are gonna be lookin' like Dorian Yates....


8^)

    
    	Ground turkey SUX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Claybone

My wife makes a mean Turkey Chili. ALthough you can taste the difference if
you know what it is made of we've often had people have no clue that it is
turkey chili instead of ground beef chili....

Turkey Tacos and turkey burritoes are some other good ways to use the 
stuff...

Personally I gotta lose 7-8 pounds myself. Gotta push my self to get on the 
stair machine for at least 30 minutes a night. I'm not a big guy so I can
really notice 5 pounds on myself and it goes right to my middle...I hate it
when your jeans feel tight around the gut...

Metz

    One of the very few good things about getting rightsized is that I'm
    going to do just that - rightsize myself.  I've already promised myself
    that I'm going to start running a workout every day now that I have the
    time.  Hopefully I'll shrink the pot-belly also with deal with the
    inevatable frustration.
    
    I normally try to get into a routine every summer.  Winters in the
    north country - well...  This summer however the routine degraded to
    2 mile workouts on the weekends.  A far cry from the college X-country
    schedule.  Hopefully within a month I'll be back up to a comfortable 
    35-40 mi/week.
    
    In the 7 years since college I've put on 30 pounds.  I was still
    filling out when I graduated (I added a couple inches on my chest since
    then - 10 yr of daily pushups and situps showed *some* return), but I
    would feel much happer minus 10 pounds.  I have 5-6 additional inches
    on my waist to account for.
    
    I'm not too worried about setting myself up for an endless workout
    schedule, interviews and consulting gigs just might havta qualify as
    vacations.  ;-) Depending. :-(
    
    Seriously, one of the things I miss is the feeling of being in very
    good shape.  Being able to do anything you want without ever getting
    tired.  Aaah, those were the days.
    
    
    Scott
    
    P.S. Listen to me bitch.  My waist is still several inches smaller than
    my chest. B-)

>the right track.  A rule of thumb is not to eat any meal that contains more than
>30% of its calories from fat.  The formula to figure it out is this:

Fats should make up 30% or less of your *total daily* calories.  

>>              <<< Note 251.215 by PATE::MACNEAL "ruck `n' roll" >>>

    
>>    Read the label.  Some of these contain as much fat as their beef/pork
  
    But Mac, if ya read a little further, you'd a found this part, too
    
>>    'Saw, It took me a while but I finally found substitutes for all of the
>>    above, made from turkey, or chicken.  You cain use ground turkey for
>>    the burgers, and with a couple of spices thrown in, ya never would know
    
>>    And a lot of these items are better than 90% fat free.  Also, fish,
>>    excepting mackerel, salmon and a couple of others, is GREAT for ya(as
  
    I always look at the fat content of the products I'm buying.  If it's
    more than 10%, I chuck it back in the display.
    
    Claybone, if ya knew how to use it, you wouldn't think that.
    
    JaKe
    

    Geez, I've lost about 10 pounds since Jan (after my vacation in
    Florida).  All my clothes are loose again. Waist may have dipped to 31
    again.  If I can loose a few more pounds before the RHode Island
    Marathon, I'll be in real good shape.
    
    Eats lots of veggies, boys.  That's what will take the weight off.
    
    Ground turkey is great stir fried with veggies - if you know how
    to do stir fry good like JD does.   I'll second Mets' rec on using
    ground turkey for taco and burritos.   Also, lean fish is great.
    
    Eats lots of pasta if you exercise.  I make my own pasta now, so I know
    it only has the bested ingredients in it...
    
    JD (who's dipped below 150...)
    
    

Claybone....

It's bland as sin. That's why I'm a big b-b-q sauce fan.   Or Worcestershire
sauce.  Or plain old ground pepper.


I lost more weight this week.  Officially at 237 this morning.  I probably
would have lost more than two pounds but I didn't get my long run in
this past week.   This week my long one is 5 miles.  I haven't done
a five miler (excepting one race) since I got back from France.


Started doing deadlifts in the gym last night.  There are only two of
us there now who deadlift.  One of my workout partners, Paul, has been
deadlifting for a couple of years, and his top weight is 495.  For his
size and bodyweight, that's excellent.   I have a long way to go to catch
him, but it's fun having something to share like that which no one else
does.  Kind of like a mini-fraternity.  Feel the burn, baby... feel the burn.


It's amazing the amount you can accomplish with your body given a very
simple exercise schedule and some diet maintenance.  Just by cutting the
fats out of your diet you can lose weight, and toss in a 20 minute
walk three times a week and you'll be fit enough for most things.


One of the reasons I got very concerned about fat content was that both
of my grandfathers were felled with heart problems (although my paternal
grandfather never had a heart problem till the day he died -- it just
hit him swiftly and massively all at once).


Hey, Jake....  watch that restaurant food buddy!!!!!


'Saw

>    Geez, I've lost about 10 pounds since Jan (after my vacation in
>    Florida).  

Tell me you haven't lost any of those massive lats though....


>    Eats lots of veggies, boys.  That's what will take the weight off.

Yep.  Ain't no fat in peas.

    
>    Ground turkey is great stir fried with veggies - if you know how
>    to do stir fry good like JD does.   I'll second Mets' rec on using
>    ground turkey for taco and burritos.   Also, lean fish is great.
    

I also like boneless, skinless chicken breats.  There's lots of ways
you can do them on the grill.   DreadTom has this sauce recipe that is
GREAT.  I don't have it, but I tasted it the day we saw the Great Aldo.

Otherwise I used bbq sauce.


>    Eats lots of pasta if you exercise.  I make my own pasta now, so I know
>    it only has the bested ingredients in it...

Amen.  I don't make my own pasta, but I do eat a lot of it.  That and
brown rice.
    

>    JD (who's dipped below 150...)

Whooee.....


'Saw

    
    

    
    I'm interested in the concept of making my own pasta.  How much could
    I expect to pay for a hand-crank machine with variable blades for
    different types of noodles?  Is a pasta flattener with a motor worth
    the extra dough I'd have to shell out?  I don't think I'd really need
    the one that actually mixes the dough also.
    
    Dickstah
    

    
>>Hey, Jake....  watch that restaurant food buddy!!!!!


>>'Saw
    
    I only et out twice this week, but one night it was the 2
    lobsters(still drooling from that one), the other night I tried that
    Sub Shop in Maynard and had the best damned cheese-steak I ever had(but
    it was way too much, but not wanting to waste, I managed to stuff it
    in(8^(*   )
    
    I stepped on a scale lasted night,. and right now I'm at about 241, but
    for the way I've eaten the lastd week, I'm not depressed or nuthin
    about it.
    
    For the most past, I'm cooking in the apartment that has been provided
    fer me.
    
    JaKe
    
    

Dickstah -

I got my pasta maker as a present.  It's a hand crank job - you really don't
need the motorized thingie.  It's extremely easy to do also.

The maker comes with attachements for making spag., linquine, angel hair,
fettucine, ravioli and some other noodels.  The dough is wicked easy to
make - and if you have a food processor - it's even simpler

I believe you cain get a good one (ATLAS is a good brand!) for about $75.00
or so.  IT will last forever.

I'll have to axe the wife more about the cost...

JD

Jake,

No sweat.  You owe yourself a treat once in a while.  And the fact that
you've waited and worked hard for the treat make it even better.


JD, that pasta maker thing sounds like a good idea.  What do you do
with the dough after it's cut/formed?  (A dumb question, but I've
never made pasta before....)


'Saw

Otay, here's what you do:

Basic pasta dough is 3/4 cup of flour and 1 cup egg.  That's it.   If the
dough doesn't lump up right - you add a little (and I mean a little) water.

If using whole wheat flour, you need a little more moisture.

Okay, then you form the dough into a ball and start the process (or, you can
let the dough sit in a  bowl covered with a damp cloth.

You then start putting it through the pasta machine.  There are settings on
the Atlas machine from 7 to 0.  Start with 7, crank the dough through.  Fold
dough in thirds, move setting up one to 6, crank dough through = until you
get to 0.  Now you have a very long piece of pasta dough.

You then choose the attachment you want.  Say you want Fettucine, you pick the
Fettucine attachment (note:  Usually there are two pasta forms on each
attachment) - and put the dough through,  it's cut into fettucine shape.  You
then hang it to dry, and make more pasta (usually you have 2 balls of dough...)

When finished, simply boil water and put the pasta in.

You can add fresh herbs to the dough, spinach, etc...to make it.

You can also make lots of pasta and freeze the fresh pasta.  

It's a lot better than store bought.  

To make manicotti, or lasagne - you simply make the dough and don't put it
through one of the attachments - you just cut the dough into the length you
want - and in the case of manicotti - fill it with ricotta or whatever you
want.  YUMM!

JD

    Jeez,
    I open ::SPORTS and I get mucho Gallopin Gourmets. Pretty soon
    you'll be talkin 'bout arranging bridge games for lunch.
    
    8^)'s
    MikeL
    

>    I open ::SPORTS and I get mucho Gallopin Gourmets. Pretty soon
>    you'll be talkin 'bout arranging bridge games for lunch.
    
Nah, Bridge is a stupid game (but don't tell David Stone I said that).

I prefer poker....


8^)

'Saw    

BTW - if you cain get it - ground lamb is a most excellent meat to stir
fry with.   Ground lamb, with lots of garlic, some onion, some mushrooms,
rosemary, and peas is most excellent.  

JD

    
    	Man, oh, man.  Nexted recipe we get will be a quiche dish
    	wif ground turkey! ;^)
    
    Claybone
    

No quiche.... LOADED with fat!

Fresh lamb...I'm rolling!

JD can afford to eat dishes with a little higher fat content because
all that runnin' he does burns it all off!


'Saw
    

    hey 'Sawmain,
    
    for the mosted part, peas are classified more as a protein than veggie.
    
    Some content or other makes them that way.
    
    Schnort Schitt Schleps
    TALCing 2night
    
    JaKe
    

    
    'Sawmain,
    
    How much weight ya think me ' JaKe could make MtM lose if'n we went a
    little wild and made him hop all over this notesfile "write-locking"
    and <set hidden> stuff for about a hour or four?
    
    deen to wonk?
    
    I remain,
    tryin ta help him slim down!
    Kev
    

mac -

Did I say a cup of eggs?  Red-faced I am.  It's 3/4 cup flour to one egg.

Yowza.

JD

PS:  Quiche.  I don't cook dat stuff.  Yuck.

I do make a mean Ceaser's Salad...

>I do make a mean Ceaser's Salad...



I used to get an excellent Caesar Salad at a little Greek Restaurant 
in Greenville, SC.  The waiter would make it right at your table.

He'd be wearing a tux, and he would never get one little drop of anything
on himself.    

It was superb.....


'Saw

    
>>I used to get an excellent Caesar Salad at a little Greek Restaurant 
>>in Greenville, SC.  The waiter would make it right at your table.
    
    How do ya drink wine in a Greek restaurant????
    
    I heard it's out of a soft red "flask" with hose attached!
    
    JaKe
    

>    How do ya drink wine in a Greek restaurant????
    
I don't know.  I always ordered beer.

I wish I could remember the name of the place.  They had excellent
food, and it was a not-too-far walk from the Hyatt right in downtown...


'Saw

This big boys note is growing into a limp wristed sissy sport runny nose type
of people note. 

Boys reach inside and pull out some manly talk or I'll write lock this sucker 
and notify the moderator of the Valuing differences note to make room for 
JAKE, SAW and JD. 

>This big boys note is growing into a limp wristed sissy sport runny nose type
>of people note. 

No it ain't.  We're all manly men, with manly bodies and manly ideals.


Gone are the days when the Art Donovans, George Youngs, and guys like
that played football.  Guys who'd eat just about anything just to be big.

Nowadays the guys are like Bruce Smith -- lean, mean, and guys who
eat the right way.

That's what we've been talking about in the Big Boys Note.  How to
get BIG without getting BIG and FAT.


So, if anyone has a problem with me eating pasta, I'll be glad to square
off with them and show them just how much testosterone comes in a pound
of pasta!


Manly enuf fer ya????

;^)


'Saw

    'Saw,
    Riggo's jest feeling uppity 'cuz he's full of dem Rocky Mt. Oysters.
    
    8^),
    MikeL
    

>    'Saw,
>    Riggo's jest feeling uppity 'cuz he's full of dem Rocky Mt. Oysters.
    


Why?  Why he Sherrill's special guest last week????    


8^)

Hey Riggo - main, making pasta yerself is more mainly than buying a box
of the stuff in the soopermarket.

Look at it this way - making pasta is like going out and killing yer own
pasta beast - akin to gitting yer own deer or elk instead of a pack of
burger meat down at da store.

And jest like in the rough and ready days - mainly is a main who cain feed
hisself and cook fer hisself.

jD

This is it Saw I've been liftin for about a year now and for the first six 
months I was losin weight. 170-175 Now in the last 2 months I've put on 
some weight about 190 now and I eat 3-4 meals a day. 

Breakfast; 

Oatmeal about 10oz
Banana
Peench Brown Sugar


Lunch 
Apples
Carrots
Green peepers
Anahiem Pepper
Some type of boxed pasta with peas or Brocoli


Snack
Raisins
Apple/Peach


Dinner
Same as lunch but throw some meat on the grill 



Things I don't do often 

Drink Beer
Eat Garbage Candy, Chips. 

I only wish I could get TFSO'd so I could spend more quality time in the GYM 
to bulk up. Only wimps like youse guys should be trying to loose weight. 

    
    I think with his pasta maker, JD has taken over from MArky Mark and his
    Volvo as the Yuppie of sports.  
    
    I still think you guys have it all wrong.  Here's my diet, and it's
    pretty close:
    
    Morning:
    
    Either a bagel or I stop at dunkin donuts on the way in and have a
    couple donuts, along with 2-3 cup of coffee.
    
    Mid morning:
    
    Steal a couple cookies from the cube across from me.
    
    Lunch:  
    
    If not with a cusotmer, either a ham sub or chinese food, usually
    a sub, and a 16oz. coke.
    
    Dinner:
    3-4 beers, usually Michelob or Moosehead (if I've been to Price Club
    recently) and whatever da wife or I cook up.
    
    I weigh about what I wieghed in college (175-180 at 6'1"), maybe a little 
    less.  My blood pressure is usually about 115/80 and my chloresterol
    was just measured at 119.     I'm telling ya, that healthy stuff is a
    bunch of bs.
    
    
    Brews

>That's what we've been talking about in the Big Boys Note.  How to
>get BIG without getting BIG and FAT.

    re: .249
    
    Right on Brews-man. Also still the same weight as college (give or take
    a few pounds). This stuff about low-cal food and diets is hooey
    (sounded like a good word) especially in a note dedicated to SPORTS!!
    
    The Crazy Met

Jeff et al,

I'm not trying to lose *weight*, I'm trying to lose fat.

My biggest problem was that during rugby season, I was on a wicked seafood
diet -- if I saw food I ate it.  I was always ravenously hungry, and I
was putting away a bunch of beer too.

Only recently did I realize that I was eating the wrong kinds of foods.
If I'd been eating properly, I would have curbed the hunger, and not
put on so much fat.   I'm still putting on muscle in the gym, but my
weight is going down because (HOPEFULLY) I'm losing fat.


Despite being that fat, my blood pressure was always fairly low.

And the other myth, about weighing what you weighed in college and eating
all kinds of sh*t still really chalks up to the Big G (Genetics) more
than anything else.

For the first couple of years after college, I looked skinnier than
Dinz (I was 6', 150 soaking wet).  Then, as is the case on my mom's
side of the family, I started to bulk up.  (I take most after my 
mom's brother).


The bottom line right now is that I feel GREAT!  I haven't felt this
good in a long time.


And I'm going to keep it up too....


'Saw

>           -< sheeyit, I'm 3 lbs. heavier than H.S. (class of '68)! >-


But Kev, you smoke like a stove and you have a very fast metabolism 8^) 8^) 8^)


'Saw
    

    Brews -
    
    The only thing that might be 'bad' in your diet is the donuts.  Other
    than that, its a fine diet.
    
    Heck, it isn't like folks in here are eating granola or drinking soy
    bean drinks....
    
    Bagels are really good for ya, btw.  Subs are great.  So, you are
    a health nut ;-)
    
    JD

    I've battled a weight problem all my life.  I'm come to realize it's
    hereditary.  While not massive, most of my family, especially on my
    dad's side, is heavy.  My mom has a really high metabolism and is
    extremely thin.  I only have one brother whose general body build takes
    after her (ie, thin).  Everyone else takes after my dad's side.
    
    My other problem is in comparison to my brothers, I'm really short. 
    I'm at least 4 inches shorter than the next shortest brother.  I'm 5'7"
    and my brothers go anywhere from 5'11" to 6'4".  They can carry the
    bulk and not look fat.  I can't.
    
    I gave up trying to fight it a long time ago.  My body is the way it is
    and I accept it.  As far as eating goes, if you're going to avoid the
    things you like solely to prolong your life, then it's not worth it (at
    least to me).
    
    John

>    My other problem is in comparison to my brothers, I'm really short. 
>    I'm at least 4 inches shorter than the next shortest brother.  I'm 5'7"
>    and my brothers go anywhere from 5'11" to 6'4".  They can carry the
>    bulk and not look fat.  I can't.


John, for what it's worth, you don't look fat to me.  I'd call you
"stocky", but not fat.
    
>    I gave up trying to fight it a long time ago.  My body is the way it is
>    and I accept it.  As far as eating goes, if you're going to avoid the
>    things you like solely to prolong your life, then it's not worth it (at
>    least to me).
    
I have to be careful not to binge.  That's my one killer bad habit.

Now, I set up my enjoyable things (sweet stuff and beer) as rewards for
working hard at my workouts.

I have about a beer a week now.  That for me is good because I was 
noticing of late that having three or four beers was really starting
to give me wicked headaches.  I can have just as much fun without, and
I don't need the extra calories.

As to the sweet stuff, now when I have it, it's an extra special treat!


'Saw

    
    	Haw Haw!  Riggo bulking up?  Come on over here and we'll
    	arm wrassle! 
    
    	And I know why you're not drinking beer.....Debbie told
    	you to quit! :*)
    
    Claybone

Hey Claybone,


Started deadlifting last week!  What a rush and a half.....  Course
my back told me about it over and over again for the next couple of
days.....8^)


'Saw

    Lessee, Ninj' @5'7" says "I'm really short".......
    
    So if'n Ah'm 5'5"....
    
    What's that make me?
    
    I remain,
    searching for an identity......
    
    Kev
    

>    So if'n Ah'm 5'5"....
>    
>    What's that make me?
    

Well, if it was a baseball program it would read,


	Kevin Farley 5'5".  Wirey, rangey, with a lot of heart.    


I think 5'5" speaks for itself....8^)


Actually, it's all relative.  For a jockey, you'd be tall.  Most
motorcycle road racers are in the 5'5" 5'9" range......

'Saw

    Kev - 5'5" is that with platform shoes on???
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    re .263
    
    ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOllward!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    Kev, it makes you taller 'n me.
    
    5'4"

Today's Dave Barry, take note guys...  ;^)

September 21st
--------------
The only sane way to lose weight is to get yourself on, and then stick to, a 
regular, planned, concientious program of purchasing newly published diet 
books. Here are some that I especially recommend: The Handsome Sincere Random
Doctor Medical Diet, The Elvis Presley Memorial Diet, Shed Unwanted Ounces The 
Orson Welles Way, The Dead Preppy Cat Microcomputer Diet Book, The Amazing
Mother Teresa Weight Loss Plan.

>Dave should have also included the; _Delta Burke Diet Plan_   One 
>precaution though, it turns your hair blonde.

Somehow it's fitting that Delta Burke should be mentioned in the
Big Boys note...

She used to look SO fine when she was on First and 10.....  Now....8^(


'Saw

    
>>I agree.  And that blonde hair.......Yuuuuch


>>Chap
                                           
    Hey, watch it, CHap.  Once upon a time, when I had hair, I was somewhat
    blonde.
    
    JaKe
    

It's not blone hair in general that I object to, it's the way it looks on
HER.    Actually, I like like blondes, SEKA is my favorite actress.

Chap 

>... Actually, I like like blondes, SEKA is my favorite actress.

Should this be in another kind of big note?

TTom

    I bet she doesn't do 900 phone ads though...
    

    
    Delta Burke is a beast.  If she didn't land another sitcom she could
    get a job in an airport sniffing luggage.
    
    Dickstah
    

    Think Gerald McRaney ever gets on the bottom????
    
    JaKe
    

    Not if he wants to live and talk about it!!  :-}
    
    REK
    
    Actuallty Marines are suppose to be ruff and tuff...

But she used to be WICKED hot in First and Ten.


Looks like she needs the new Chainsaw Diet....


'Saw

    Re. Kev's 5'5".
    
    Kev if your 5'5", then I'm 6'10"!
    
    Doubting,
    Conan

    
    Conan,
    
    So I rounded off the number a teenie bit.  You got a problem with
    that??
    C'mon down to OPP tomorrow night and I'll take the lifts YOU wear outa
    your shoes!
    
    so there!
    
    I remain,
    still only paying 1/2 of what YOU do for clothes!
    
    Kev
    

    
    Don't forget that the electric version is "environmentally friendly"
    because it doesn't spew out noxious exhaust fumes!
    
    Technically speaking, do you need any special lubricant when using the
    Chainsaw diet or is it self-lubricating?
    
    I remain,
    friendly with Paul Bunyun!
    Kev
    

    
    >>Don't forget that the electric version is "environmentally friendly"
    >>because it doesn't spew out noxious exhaust fumes!
    
    Is there an electric version of you after you've been drinking all
    night to stop your noxious exhaust fumes????
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

I'm usually fairly congizant of environmental issues, and I try to
do my part too.

But I will never, ever, ever, use an electric chainsaw.  Give me 
a Stihl, a pair of gloves, and a pile of wood, and I'll be happy all
afternoon.....8^)


'Saw

       Come on 'saw admit it, you use a electric to carve that (soon to be
    extinct?) DEC turkey!
                                 Denny

    W#Ho needs a chainsaw, be it electric or gas???
    
    REAL Mainly Men use a BFA and some good ole manpower.
    
    JaKe
    

>    REAL Mainly Men use a BFA and some good ole manpower.

Oh, I have several variants of that most noble of all tools.
I like the double bladed version best, but I've also got a Hudson Bay.

Nothing like hitting a knot in the middle of a log you're slipping
to make those sinews in your arms sing....


'Saw    

    
>>Nothing like hitting a knot in the middle of a log you're slipping
>>to make those sinews in your arms sing....
    
    Or, when using a chainsaw, nothing like the damned thang kicking back
    to make your arms hit the floor!!!!
    
    (8^0*
    
    JaKe
    

>But I will never, ever, ever, use an electric chainsaw.  Give me 
>a Stihl, a pair of gloves, and a pile of wood, and I'll be happy all
>afternoon.....8^)


>'Saw
    
    
    'saw, c'mon over to my house, and I'll make sure you are happy for a
    week.

>    
>    'saw, c'mon over to my house, and I'll make sure you are happy for a
>    week.


hahahaha.  

Brews, that's the firsted thing all morning that's made me laugh!


If you supply the beer, I might just do it....8^)


'Saw

    I didn't know that trees grew in deserts.

    
    We gots yer mesquite and ironwood (oldtimers pronounce it as arnwood)
    in the desert, and an hour or two away is cedar and oak.  There's
    probably more trees in AZ than all of New England.
    
    'saw, the beer is never a problem at my house.  
    
    Brews, who is going to get wood this weekend

>    in the desert, and an hour or two away is cedar and oak.  There's
>    probably more trees in AZ than all of New England.

I burn a lot of oak.

Cedar is nice to work with because it smells so nice.

    
>    'saw, the beer is never a problem at my house.  

Great!
    
>    Brews, who is going to get wood this weekend

Fortunately for me, I'm all set.  I probably SHOULD get the chimney
cleaned however....


'Saw

    
    >>Brews, who is going to get wood this weekend
    
    After being  away from home for the lasted two weeks, there's going to
    be wood flying at the Jacob house this weekend, but not of the cutting
    variety, if'n ya know whut I mean.  May get a babysitter and spend the
    weekend playing with the box the kids came in.
    
    
    JaKe
    

>    After being  away from home for the lasted two weeks, there's going to
>    be wood flying at the Jacob house this weekend, but not of the cutting
>    variety, if'n ya know whut I mean.  May get a babysitter and spend the
>    weekend playing with the box the kids came in.


You guys are pushing it!


Jake, just don't get Father Porter as your baby-sitter.....    

    	JaKe, don't forget to show Mrs. JaKe the tee shirt we got you.

    re.295 & the shirt
    
    It'll probably MYSTERIOUSLY dissappear on wash day!!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    >There's probably more trees in AZ than all of New England
    
    Not a chance.  I grew up in New England and when I recently drove
    completely through Arizona I was thinking.  Gee, wouldn't it be 
    nice to see *A* tree once in a while.  I'd almost be willing to 
    bet there are more trees in each of the northern NE states (NH, ME,
    VT) than in Arizona.
    
    Hell, I saw more tree in Boston than in any square mile I saw in AZ.
    
    Great mountains though 8^)
    
    Marc

    you obviously were in the wrong part of AZ

    You didn't drive completely through Arizona.  Most likely you took
    I-10, through the desert.
    
    Brews

      Northern Az has lots of trees.  Once you go south and come out of the
    mountains (Phoenix), then it looks fairly baren.  To hot and not enough
    moisture.
    
    	Tj

    
    Well, how 'bout that!  A "which state has more trees" rathole.  Let's
    ask Ninj to look it up and settle this once and for all.
    
    Dickstah
    

    
    I'll take Maine and the points over Arizona.  Maine is bigger than the
    forested parts of Arizona and it's a well-known fact that most of the
    state still hasn't yet been seen by white men...
    
    glenn
    

    Arizona is bigger than all 6 NE States combined.
    
    I'd venture a guess that forest land is pretty durn close, however.
    
    What % of zona is desert?
    
    JD

I'm in. 

I wanna parlay most trees with best hills. I got West Virginee.

TTom

      JD, I'd have to say around 30% or so it seemed when I lived there.  I
    didn't see all of Az, only about 50% of it.  I drove to Tuscon (sp?) a
    few times and from Phoenix to Albequrque (sp?) alot,  and there is alot
    of baren land.  The best driving was going from phoenix to the canyon
    and up around the Sadona area.  Thats be-u-ti-ful there!  Slide rock
    was ok to.
    
    	Tim

I'd like Maine on the trees, in a Quinella with Utah for the most Mormons.


thanks,
'Saw

    
    Alright, what we need is a tree census.  I'll take Massachusetts this
    weekend, and maybe scout some whitetails along the way.  'Saw, you
    might as well take Connecticut, and Rhode Island as well since it's
    right in the neighborhood and it's small anyway.  JD, you get new
    Hampshire as long as you're up there, and the Ultra Runners can get
    some work in Vermont and count the trees while they're at it.  We need
    some volunteers for Maine, but as an incentive, I'll buy the beer at
    the Portland Cafe at the post-census drink-up.  You guys out west form
    your own team, and we'll report the findings in here on Monday morning.
    
    Dickstah
    

|    Alright, what we need is a tree census.  I'll take Massachusetts this
|    weekend, and maybe scout some whitetails along the way.  'Saw, you
|    might as well take Connecticut, and Rhode Island as well since it's
|    right in the neighborhood and it's small anyway.  JD, you get new
|    Hampshire as long as you're up there, and the Ultra Runners can get
|    some work in Vermont and count the trees while they're at it.  We need
|    some volunteers for Maine, but as an incentive, I'll buy the beer at
|    the Portland Cafe at the post-census drink-up.  You guys out west form
|    your own team, and we'll report the findings in here on Monday morning.
    
Okay, I'm in.

Question:   Since a lot of Connecticut's trees are second growth, following
	    the massive clearing of land for farms 150 years ago, are
	    we breaking down the count into categories for Old Timber
	    and SEcond Growth?

	    Also, do saplings count?


'Saw_The_Tree_Counter_In_Connecticut    

     What would a tavern, even an "electronic tavern", be without rid-
    iculous arguments about useless and sometimes unverifiable trivia ?

    

    I'll take Alaska on the trees with Mormons in Utah and flakes in
    California for the trifecta.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

You get 10 points for first growth, 5 points for second growth and 100
points for any virgins found.

>	    Also, do saplings count?

Yes but saps don't.

TTom

    
    One, I claim da two's and tree's for five!
    
    
    
    
    ;*)
    
    

>
>     What would a tavern, even an "electronic tavern", be without rid-
>    iculous arguments about useless and sometimes unverifiable trivia ?
>


Tommy, I'm gonna nominate you for the role of SPORTS Demosthenes.
I've probably got tha name wrong, but wasn't he the Greek guy who carried
around the lantern searching for an honest man.  (Or was it Diogenes?)

Anyway Tommy, you keep us all honest!


'Saw    

     > (Or was it Diogenes?)
    
    I think it was Diabetes.
    

    Now, do we break da trees down to evergreen and deciduous categories?
    
    How bout Swamp trees?  How bout shrubs that look like trees, and trees
    that look like shrubs - do stumps with little shoots count as trees?
    
    Now what about yer Tree Rollins?
    
    How bout shoe trees?  
    
    JD  

>    How bout shoe trees?  

Is this a variant (genetic mutation possibly) of the Coat Tree?

    
    Let's set a limit of a minimum of 12" for saplings.  A tree is
    generally a woody plant emanating from a single stem.  Therefore,
    lilacs and the like are actually bushes.  Shrubbery is also not
    counted.  Family trees don't count either, as they are a concept
    more than a concrete reality.  West Virginia trees don't have any
    branches, BTW.
    
    Dickstah
    

>    ... West Virginia trees don't have any
>    branches, BTW.

Actually, in certain areas all the trees look alike.

TTom

>Actually, in certain areas all the trees look alike.

Do they have big ears, uh, er, leaves?

No but if you listen carefully you can hear






EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!111

    
    You people are twisted....
    
    
    

    
    I've got miles to go before I sleep, though.......
    
    Will we branch out on this and perhaps go out on a limb?
    
    
    

    re .224
    
    I was gon for a few days and when I came back there were over 1000 
    unread replies! 
    
    Sawmain, that sauce I made with the BBQ Chicken the day of the soccer 
    game was a re-creation of an Indoneian/Thai kind of dish, Sate. There are
    different variations, but I use peanut butter, soy (or Tamari) sauce, a
    spoon full of brown sugar or honey (to counter the salty taste from the
    soy) and a dash of "Vietnamese Dragon Sauce" I got this stuff from a 
    Vietnamese market in Allston 5 years ago. I don't know what's in it, but 
    a half a teaspoon thrown into a 6-serving stir fry will make it hot enough 
    to bring tears to your eyes. Anyway, mix it all up, mainate the chicken
    for a couple of hours, then throw it on the grill. Use the ramaining
    saouce like BBQ sauce when the chicken is cooking.
    
    Great stuff!
    
    Tom        

    I been too busy holding on to my sides reading this "my state has the
    most trees" dialog, but Dickstah, ifn yunz are throwing in a beer stop,
    I'd be only too happy to take care of Maine.
    
    Rule clarification:
    	Did I hear someone say you had to count woodies, too?  This is
    going to take a lot longer, and a lot more beer, than previously
    anticipated.
    
    Bill

    
    >	Did I hear someone say you had to count woodies, too? 
    
    I think Ducks Unlimited already takes a count of woodies, blacks,
    canvasbacks, and other Maine residents, both native and migratory.
    
    Dickstah
    

Got on the scale on Saturday morning (forgot on Friday) and was
down to 232.  

Wednesday afternoon I pony up another $5 to get tested again.  I hope
I've lost some fat percentage!


'Saw

Well, last evening, I went to the gym, $5 in hand, anxiously awaiting the
results of my month long totally dietary reform program.

At the morning weigh-in, I weight an even 230 pounds.

I took the test.


The results:


	Body Fat %age:	25.4

	Pounds Fat   :   58
	Pounds Lean  :  172

	Percent Water:   56

	Max Rec. Wgt :  214

I was so psyched!

Last month, my %age was 30.5.  I was carrying 74 pounds of fat with
162 lean, and my water was 53.  My max rec weight last month was 210.

So, in the past month, I have lost 16 pounds of fat, added four pounds
of muscle, and I feel great.

The folks at the gym were amazed.


The only nit was that theys aid my water percentage should be up around 60
considering all the exercise I do.....


I'm sure next month the loss will not be as dramatic, but for now I'm
extremely pleased....


'Saw

    'saw needs a temporary water weight gain.  Try midol.
    
    HTH,
    
    Brews

>    'saw needs a temporary water weight gain.  Try midol.
    
No, midol is a diuretic!

Actually, I thought I'd been drinking plenty of water, and I guess the
3% raise was good, but they're saying they want me up near 60.  I'd
feel like I was floating away!


8^)


'SAw

     'Saw, be advised that even the best body fat tests have a 4 to 5 %
    margin of error. I only mention this because you say that you gained
    four pounds of muscle in a month. That's vitrually impossible except
    for the occasional newcomer to weightlifting or for "chemically en-
    hanced" physiques. It may be a mistake to get too caught up in numbers.
    I think the best way to judge how your doing is to look at yourself 
    naked in the mirror and asking yourself what you need to do to change 
    your body shape to where you want it to be. You'll also save yourself
    the cost of the bodyfat test.
    

    'Saw,
    
    Get yer h2o up to around 60 and I got a new p-name for ya!
    
    
    
    
    
    
    		\slosher  !!!!!
    
    
    
    Whattya think?
    
    Iev
    

>     'Saw, be advised that even the best body fat tests have a 4 to 5 %
>    margin of error. I only mention this because you say that you gained
>    four pounds of muscle in a month. That's vitrually impossible except
>    for the occasional newcomer to weightlifting or for "chemically en-
>    hanced" physiques. It may be a mistake to get too caught up in numbers.
>    I think the best way to judge how your doing is to look at yourself 
>    naked in the mirror and asking yourself what you need to do to change 
>    your body shape to where you want it to be. You'll also save yourself
>    the cost of the bodyfat test.
    

Oh, I know about the margin of error.  But I would expect that since
I had the same type of test done last month, with the same equipment
the same margin of error would have been there then too.

I also know that in the last month I've lost twelve pounds, my pants
are looser, my lats are bigger and so are my tris.

I discovered when I started lifting that I do put muscle on very 
quickly.   God didn't bless me with speed genes, or skinny genes, so I
guess what he gave me was the capacity to add muscle.

Now, by rights, the four pounds that I call muscle is more properly 
described as lean weight, so it might not all be muscle.


Naked in the mirror, while I'm still not satisfied, I'm happy that there's
a lot less of me there to see.


Bottom line, the test is just another one of the yardsticks that I'm 
using to measure my progress in reshaping myself and reforming my life.


The best yardstick right now?  I FEEL *GREAT*!


'SAw

    
    Make that a rear-view mirror.  That's the real test.
    

>    Make that a rear-view mirror.  That's the real test.

Oh, I'll always have a big butt.

Even if I took off all the fat back there, I'd always have a big butt.

Once rugby season is over and I start squatting again, the butt will
probably stay big.   (Check out the o-line sometime, or even the d-line.
There's some SERIOUS butts there)


'Saw
    

'member that you cain't lose weight in specific area through concentrated 
exercise.  You can do a million sit-ups, and it won't make your stomach 
smaller unless you also lose weight.  Chances are you won't be totally satisfied
with the  "naked in the mirror" test until you are exactly where you want to be.

=Bob=

>'member that you cain't lose weight in specific area through concentrated 
>exercise.  You can do a million sit-ups, and it won't make your stomach 
>smaller unless you also lose weight.  Chances are you won't be totally satisfied
>with the  "naked in the mirror" test until you are exactly where you want to be.

Right.

All I can do is work the muscles in that area.  If the fat stays on top
of the area, then it will actually get bigger instead of smaller.

I've been lifting three days a week and running three days a week.
I've been bombing certain body parts, on kind of a rotating basis.
I did back off serious squatting for awhile, but on the other
hand, I started deadlifting, so I guess that evens out....

I'm feeling good.

'Saw

  >> The best yardstick right now?  I FEEL *GREAT*!


     That's good because that's the most important thing - to feel good
    about yourself. I'm sure you've heard it yourself, you tell people
    that you work out and automatically they want to know what your max
    bench is or your max this or that. I don't know what my max bench
    is because *I don't max*. That's not why I work out. I *do* periodic-
    ally up the weight I work with but I don't max. Right now, I feel 
    better and I know I look better than I did a year ago and a year from 
    now I expect to look and feel better than I do now and that's why I 
    do it. You start worrying about numbers too much and the numbers them-
    selves become your goal and what's really important, how you look and 
    feel, becomes secondary. That's what I mean by not getting caught up 
    with numbers.

  
    BTW - 'Saw next time there's a get together at the OPP you'll have to 
    come to my gymn, which is just down the road a piece, for a workout.
   
    
    

>     That's good because that's the most important thing - to feel good
>    about yourself. I'm sure you've heard it yourself, you tell people
>    that you work out and automatically they want to know what your max
>    bench is or your max this or that. I don't know what my max bench
>    is because *I don't max*. That's not why I work out. I *do* periodic-
>    ally up the weight I work with but I don't max. Right now, I feel 
>    better and I know I look better than I did a year ago and a year from 
>    now I expect to look and feel better than I do now and that's why I 
>    do it. You start worrying about numbers too much and the numbers them-
>    selves become your goal and what's really important, how you look and 
>    feel, becomes secondary. That's what I mean by not getting caught up 
>    with numbers.

I hear ya.

That's the thing I like about my gym.  It's a little gym, and it has
a homey atmosphere.  As opposed to a place the the Gold's in the
area, no one is judging you on how big you are, or how much you lift.

There is just as much encouragement and celebration when a new lifter
hits 225 on squats as when Big Pete or Mike (our two best squatters)
hit a new PR.

I saw my main man Paul hit a max on deadlift after working for over
a year to get there.  I was pysched for him.   He was just as pysched
the first night I deadlifted....

I've changed my physique quite a bit since I started seriously lifting
11 months ago.   And it's only now that I'm starting to feel a certain
rhythm to my workouts.


  
>    BTW - 'Saw next time there's a get together at the OPP you'll have to 
>    come to my gymn, which is just down the road a piece, for a workout.

Let's plan on it!


'Saw
   

PS  One cool thing for me is that in the last three months I've gotten
    my brother to come to the gym.  At first he was doing Nautilus, and
    then, slowly, I converted him to free weights.   It's great to
    see him in there starting out....

      
      re .339
    
      I know what you mean, 'Saw. Your gym sounds alot like mine. Occas-
     ionally, I'll go to one of the bigger gyms like Northeast Fitness 
     (formerly Gold's) or Orchards Hills on a guest pass just for a change 
     of pace. Those places have alot more equipment and more good-looking 
     women than my gym but at my gym you don't have be shy about asking for 
     a spot. More often than not people will ask *you* if you need a spot 
     because everyone knows everyone else. A lot of the time I'll be going 
     on my heaviest set and I'll have two or three people yelling at me,
     pushing me to go harder and you know how much that helps. I just don't
     see that kind of camaraderie at the bigger gyms. At a lot of the bigger 
     gyms also, you get folks who are just there to be seen or to meet 
     people which if fine but I barely have enough time to workout never 
     mind stand around and socialize.






    
    

    	You guys want a real workout?  Try "The Block" in Baltimore.

    
     Ok, Slashmonster out with it what exactly is "The Block" ? And while
    your at it what does your p-name mean ?

>      I know what you mean, 'Saw. Your gym sounds alot like mine. Occas-
>     ionally, I'll go to one of the bigger gyms like Northeast Fitness 
>     (formerly Gold's) or Orchards Hills on a guest pass just for a change 
>     of pace. Those places have alot more equipment and more good-looking 
>     women than my gym but at my gym you don't have be shy about asking for 
>     a spot. More often than not people will ask *you* if you need a spot 
>     because everyone knows everyone else. A lot of the time I'll be going 
>     on my heaviest set and I'll have two or three people yelling at me,
>     pushing me to go harder and you know how much that helps. I just don't
>     see that kind of camaraderie at the bigger gyms. At a lot of the bigger 
>     gyms also, you get folks who are just there to be seen or to meet 
>     people which if fine but I barely have enough time to workout never 
>     mind stand around and socialize.


Amen brother.

A lot of time my last couple of reps get squeezed out because of 
people yelling encouragement.

And every once in a while, you'll have a laugh or two.

We have some FINE looking women in the aerobics classes, but it's awfully
hard to hit on someone in the gym, because a) you're really there to
workout, and b) every possible line you could use SOUNDS like a line....


The other fine thing about my gym is that it is a clean gym.  I don't
have anyone pushing juice on me.....


'Saw





    
    

       'The Block' is Baltimore's Combat Zone.
                                    Denny

    Way to go, 'Saw!!!!!!!
    
    Personally, I got on the scale today and I've slipped a little bit, I'm
    back up to 244 1/2, from a low point of 237.
    
    I quit drinking the water I'm supposed to, and have to get back to
    that, and I'm not being REAL good on portion size of what I eat, and
    I'm eating too much.
    
    Re the water, Saw, drinking MORE water won't increase your water %,
    more likely it'll either maintain or lower a little.  By drinking more
    than 8 glasses of water a day, your bod will adjust to what it feels is
    a proper water amount, and expell the rest.  When I DRINK all the water
    I should, I actually weigh a little less cause I don't end up all
    bloated, although I cain't take a long trip in the car cause I gots to
    stop to relieve the ol' bladder every now and then, more often than
    when I drink coke or sumthin.
    
    JaKe
    

>    Re the water, Saw, drinking MORE water won't increase your water %,
>    more likely it'll either maintain or lower a little.  By drinking more
>    than 8 glasses of water a day, your bod will adjust to what it feels is
>    a proper water amount, and expell the rest.  When I DRINK all the water
>    I should, I actually weigh a little less cause I don't end up all
>    bloated, although I cain't take a long trip in the car cause I gots to
>    stop to relieve the ol' bladder every now and then, more often than
>    when I drink coke or sumthin.
    
I was thinking that.

When I start drinking a lot of water, for the firsted couple of days
I'm running to the pee-room all the time.  (Well, sometimes I just
wet my pants cause I like that warm all over feeling it gives me)
but then after a while, it's okay, because my bod gets used to the
intake....


'Saw    

    JaKe,
    
    You sayin you wizz on the road as cars wizz past you?
    
    hep me!
    
    Kev
    

>    You sayin you wizz on the road as cars wizz past you?
    
I did that once on I80 in Pennsylvania at about 4:30 in the morning.

There was like NO other cars around for miles.  

I got out of the car, proceeded to begin what needed to be done, 
and within MILLISECONDS, out of the black night, a convoy of about
15 trucks whizzed by.

I was sure that they must have been talkin' bout me on the CB, but
my folks wouldn't let on when I got back in da car....


'Saw

    You know what whatsisname always says, "If you look good, you feel
    good, and dahling, youoo loook MAAAVAlous".
    
    Sorry, but for the safety of everyone concerned, I don't think 'Saw
    should be hitting the gym after spending time at the OPP.

>    
>    Sorry, but for the safety of everyone concerned, I don't think 'Saw
>    should be hitting the gym after spending time at the OPP.


Nah, we'll do it before!  We'll come into da bah all pumped up, and
we will be just like Hans und Franz....


8^)

    Nah Kev, I stop at rest area or gas stations, cause in the afternoon,
    If'n I was to stop by the road and whizzz, there'd be a line of cars a
    mile long stopped to watch, amazed at what they see.
    
    (8^)*
    
    (BTW, I know I'm left open here for ALL kinds of comments, so be nice)
    
    JaKe
    

    re: .353
    
    > so be nice
    
    JaKe, tell ya what nexted time you're nice in this notesfile, we'll all
    follow suit :-)
    
    The Crazy Met