Conference 7.286::sports_91

    They didn't play you donkey you.

    Having an ex-Laker fan create this topic is a true victory for the 
    Suns and their faithful!  Congratulations Jess!
    
    Mike

    The new SI has a feature story on X.  

You mean you guys are actually reading the new SI?

Mike

    The Suns started their playoff stretch run with their best defensive
    effort of the year!  What?! The Suns playing DEFENSE?  WOW!  Consider 
    that before last night they were 0-5 when scoring less than 100 points.  
    Was that Tom Chambers leading the team in steals AGAIN?  WOW!  He must 
    want to win a championship or something!  He's led the team in steals
    the past few weeks!  LA had 17 turnovers and Phoenix stole the ball
    from them 10 times!
    
    And what can you say about KJ that hasn't already been said.  He was
    golden last night!  I loved that scoop shot he made toward the end of
    the game.  He said in the post-game interviews that he had Mark West
    show him how he does his finger roll (actually uses his palm).  That
    was a backbreaker for LA.  Suns lead the season series 2-1 now with 1
    game to go in the Forum.
    
    Bottomline: this is what it's all about.  That was an excellent game
    and the type we pay good money to see.  It doesn't get much better than
    that.
    
    The Suns have halted all the longest winning streaks in the NBA this
    season.
    
    Portland's 11 game streak.
    Detroit's  "   "     "
    LA's       16  "     "
    
    Who you gonna call?  The Streakbusters! ;-)
    
    BTW - did X guard Worthy?  Doesn't sound like X did too well against
    him if so.  Although I'm not sure if X made up for it on the Phoenix
    end.
    
    Mike

    >BTW - did X guard Worthy?  Doesn't sound like X did too well against
    >him if so.  Although I'm not sure if X made up for it on the Phoenix
    >end.
    
    X started on Worthy, but for almost the entire second and third
    quarters, anytime WOrthy went in, Cotton put Rambis in to counter. 
    James didn't do much from over the top, but he was deadly off the
    dribble, beating whomever was guarding him.  But the J?  Missing the
    open ones.
    
    Considering Phoenix defense was pitiful in the first half, they really
    turned it around in the second.  Lakers got nothing from the off guard,
    as Scott was poked in the eye in the first minute of play, sat the rest
    of the first quarter, and was mostly silent the rest of the game. 
    Worthy and Perkins were both getting good offensive opportunities, but
    I would have liked Divac to see the ball more in the post.
    
    KJ's scoop was a spectacular shot, but no back-breaker.  Lakers came
    right back and scored at the other end to tie it again.  Chambers lefty
    hook decided it, the kind of situation I've seen him choke away
    countless times in the past.
    
    Magic took a minimum of shots.  I'm not sure if it's because he wanted
    to run the offense to set up his teammates, or if it's because of the
    muscling of Majerle on D.  He beats the double almost 100% of the time
    anyway with a pass, and the SUns were doubling all night on any post
    threat.
    
    Dan

    I was amazed when I heard the Lakers shot 66% from the floor in the
    first half and were still down by 2 at intermission.
    
    Suns have definitely improved at doubling over the past couple weeks.
    
    Mike

    Did KJ say he wore 41 in the all-star game because of West?

    Yes.  He and West are good friends.

    So where are we meeting tonight? ;-)

    I'll be there for sure, dressed to the teeth in all my Celtics'
    paraphenalia(sp?).  Somehow, I don't think it will help though.

    If anyone wants to see/join me, I'll be doing various jams and 
    humourous antics during timeouts and halftime.  C'mon down! ;-)
    
    Mike

    Mike, do you have one of those Wardle caps with the velcro team emblems
    for tonight's game?

    no I don't wear yuppy hats ;-)

    What was with Bird in last night's game?  Every time the Suns were 
    slipping away and the Celts looked they were going over the top, 
    Larry'd throw up some improbable brick to stifle it (my favorite was 
    that Greg Kite-fashioned left-handed bullet hook he fired off the 
    glass).  I saw this tendency in the Lakers game, too.  Can we expect
    Bird to continue to feel that it's still 1984 and that everything 
    rests on his shoulders in the playoffs, too?  Can Ford talk to Bird?
    Will Reggie Lewis just have to refuse to pass to Larry in crunch time?
    
    All kidding aside, Bird is an integral part of this team, and from what
    I've seen his demise has been greatly exaggerated.  I don't think he's
    lost much off his passing game, which is all the more reason he should
    keep the ball moving in the last few minutes.  But is he going to be
    the last to know?
    
    glenn
      

    I think Ford sent Bird a message went he pulled him in favor of Pinkney
    in the 4th quarter.

>>    What was with Bird in last night's game?  Every time the Suns were 
>>    slipping away and the Celts looked they were going over the top, 
>>    Larry'd throw up some improbable brick to stifle it (my favorite was 
>>    that Greg Kite-fashioned left-handed bullet hook he fired off the 
>>    glass).

In a word, he stunk.  But after hitting almost 50% of his threes on the road
trip, I think he was still feeling confident.  And truthfully, he finds some
way of hitting those devastatingly timed shots.  I think the shot selection
could have been better, but I'm coming off 10 years of saying "I can't believe
he's taking that... Nice shot!"

j.

    If bird loses his outside shot, the celtics are in trouble, he may take
    as many 3's as he use too. But just the treat makes the opponents think
    about it.  Each time he is double teamd (just like majic and Jordan) he
    will find the open man, its then up to the person (gamble, lewis,
    brown) to nail it..... I hope the suns can put together a streak and
    catch up with LA and portland, on the other coast I cant wait until
    next tuesday when the celts travel out to JORDAN TOWN....
    							M_Air_Brooks

    The April issue of Guitar Player has a photo of Extreme's Nuno
    Bettencourt (Hudson, MA native) wearing a KJ t-shirt.
    
    Mike

    Dan Majerle lost by 1 vote to Detlef Schrempf for the NBA's Best 6th
    Man of the year award.
    
    Mike

    
    This topic is definitely closed, for the season ........
    
    - The Doctor (C.P.)

    Hey Mikey, how'd Phoenix do lasted night?

    There are some GREAT rumors floating around here.  I heard on the
    Sportsline last night that Katz wants Barkley out of Philly and Barkley
    wants out too.  Steve Mix (does something in the Philly's front office
    now) was on the show and admitted that they and the Suns are talking
    trade.
    
    They are looking for a MINIMUM of a center, guard, and swingman for
    Barkley.  This is the deal Phoenix has on the table right now: 
    
    West OR Lang, Negele Knight, and Ceballos FOR Sir Charles!
    
    I hope they go for it!
    
    Mike

    The Suns roooooolle, Tom "Vanilla Ice" Chambers will average 30 a game,
    and Kevin "The Chipmunk" Johnson is shaping up to have a 25/15 season in
    points and assists. Throw in Marjlie, Horny, and West ... and the Suns
    look like a 65 win team to me. 
    
    What a team !
    
    Doc

    Mr. Moderator, another duplicate note.

       Don't worry mike, he didn't make it a 'champeenship' note, so you're
    probably safe.
                                    Denny

    just trying to save 'Saw's disk space ;-)

The Suns will not win until they dump Joe Barry Carroll. After that's
it's Iffy and this note won't help any.

TTom

$!    Command format:   
$!    
$!    $ @suns p1 p2 p3
$!
$!    p1 = item to search for, such as opponent's name, TV station, day of week)
$!    p2 = forecasting switch; enter Y to enable; N or blank to disable
$!    p3 = if p2 is Y, enter a number from 1-31; 7 is the default
$!
$ Save_Message = F$Environment("Message")
$ Set Message/Nosever/Noid/Notext/Nofac
$ Say :== Write sys$output
$ dow = "''f$cvtime(""today"",,""weekday"")'"
$ td = "''f$time()'"
$ day= "''f$extract(0,2,td)'"
$ month=f$extract(3,3,td)
$ year=f$extract(7,4,td)
$ file = f$environment("procedure")
$ gametoday = f$extract(3,4,f$time())+f$extract(8,2,f$cvtime("today"))
$ P1 = f$edit(P1,"collapse")
$ If P1 .eqs. "" 
$ then 
$ lookingfortoday = "TRUE"
$ p1 = gametoday
$ Say "Today's Phoenix Suns' basketball game: "
$ else
$ Say "Selected Phoenix Suns' basketball game(s): "
$ lookingfortoday = "FALSE"
$ endif
$ search 'file' 'p1'
$ is_there = $status
$ if is_there .eqs. "%X08D78053" 
$ then 
$ if lookingfortoday then Say "No game today."
$ if .not. lookingfortoday then Say "No such game."
$ endif
$next_n_days:
$ if P2 .eqs. "" .or. P2 .eqs. " " then goto done
$ if P2 .eqs. "Y" 
$ then
$      at_a_glance = 7
$      if P3 .eqs. "" .or. P3 .eqs. " " then P3 = at_a_glance
$      if P3 .lt. 1 .or. P3 .gt. 31 then goto bad_reply
$ else
$      if P2 .nes. "N" then goto bad_reply
$      goto done
$ endif
$ Say "Phoenix Suns' games in next "+"''P3'"+" days:"
$ month = f$edit(f$extract(0,3,"''p1'"),"UPCASE")
$ n_day = f$extract(4,2,"''p1'")
$ count = 1
$next_day:
$ n_day = n_day + 1
$ if month .eqs. "OCT" .AND. n_day .gt. 31 
$ then 
$ month = "NOV" 
$ goto new_month 
$ endif
$ if month .eqs. "NOV" .AND. n_day .gt. 30 
$ then 
$ month = "DEC" 
$ goto new_month 
$ endif
$ if month .eqs. "DEC" .AND. n_day .gt. 31 
$ then 
$ month = "JAN" 
$ goto new_month 
$ endif
$ if month .eqs. "JAN" .AND. n_day .gt. 31 
$ then 
$ month = "FEB" 
$ goto new_month 
$ endif
$ if month .eqs. "FEB" .AND. n_day .gt. 28 
$ then 
$ month = "MAR" 
$ goto new_month 
$ endif
$ if month .eqs. "MAR" .AND. n_day .gt. 31 
$ then 
$ month = "APR" 
$ goto new_month 
$ endif
$ if month .eqs. "APR" .AND. n_day .gt. 23 then goto say_playoffs
$ goto test_for_game
$new_month:
$ n_day = "1"
$test_for_game:
$ if n_day .lt. 10 then n_day = "0" + f$edit("''n_day'","collapse")
$ p1 = "''month'" + "-" + "''n_day'"
$ search 'file' 'p1'
$ count = count + 1
$ if count .le. P3 then goto next_day
$ goto done
$say_playoffs:
$ SAY "Playoffs due to start... schedule is TBD!!!"
$ goto done
$bad_reply:
$ Say "Invalid reply."
$ goto done
$ done:
$ set mess'Save_Message'
$ EXIT
NOV-01  at Seattle             TNT   KUTP (channel 45)
NOV-02	at Portland            KUTP (channel 45)
NOV-05	   Indiana             ASPN/Prime Ticket
NOV-06  at LA Clippers
NOV-08	   LA Lakers           KUTP (channel 45)
NOV-09  at Houston             KUTP (channel 45)
NOV-12  at Golden State        KUTP (channel 45)
NOV-13	   Boston              ASPN/Prime Ticket
NOV-15     Atlanta
NOV-16  at Dallas
NOV-19	at LA Lakers           ASPN/Prime Ticket
NOV-20     Denver
NOV-22     LA Clippers
NOV-26  at Sacramento
NOV-27     Sacramento
NOV-29     Charlotte
NOV-30     Utah                KUTP (channel 45)
DEC-03	at Minnesota           KUTP (channel 45)
DEC-04	at Indiana             KUTP (channel 45)
DEC-06  at Orlando
DEC-07  at Miami
DEC-10	   Detroit             ASPN/Prime Ticket
DEC-13	at San Antonio         TNT
DEC-18	at Denver              KUTP (channel 45)
DEC-20	   San Antonio         ASPN/Prime Ticket
DEC-22	at LA Lakers           KUTP (channel 45)
DEC-26     Miami
DEC-28	   Dallas              ASPN/Prime Ticket
DEC-30	at Detroit             KUTP (channel 45)
JAN-02  at Atlanta
JAN-04  at Charlotte
JAN-05	at New York            KUTP (channel 45)
JAN-08     Denver
JAN-10	   Orlando             ASPN/Prime Ticket
JAN-11     Golden State
JAN-13     Minnesota
JAN-15	at Sacramento          ASPN/Prime Ticket
JAN-17     Sacramento
JAN-19	   Portland            NBC
JAN-21  at Chicago             KUTP (channel 45)
JAN-22  at New Jersey
JAN-24  at Boston              KUTP (channel 45)
JAN-25	at Washington          KUTP (channel 45)
JAN-29     New Jersey
JAN-31  at Utah                ASPN/Prime Ticket
FEB-01	   Houston             ASPN/Prime Ticket
FEB-03	   LA Lakers           KUTP (channel 45)
FEB-05	   Chicago             ASPN/Prime Ticket
FEB-12	   Portland            KUTP (channel 45)
FEB-14	at LA Clippers         ASPN/Prime Ticket
FEB-15     Washington
FEB-17  at Seattle
FEB-18	at Portland            KUTP (channel 45)
FEB-21  at Golden State
FEB-22     LA Clippers
FEB-24	   New York            ASPN/Prime Ticket
FEB-26	   Cleveland           ASPN/Prime Ticket
FEB-28	at Dallas              KUTP (channel 45)
MAR-01	   Utah                NBC
MAR-03	   Houston             TNT
MAR-05	   Seattle             ASPN/Prime Ticket     
MAR-07	at San Antonio         KUTP (channel 45)
MAR-10	at Cleveland           KUTP (channel 45)
MAR-12  at Milwaukee           KUTP (channel 45)
MAR-13	at Philadelphia        KUTP (channel 45)
MAR-15	at Minnesota           KUTP (channel 45)
MAR-17     Dallas
MAR-20     LA Clippers
MAR-21     Minnesota
MAR-25	   Milwaukee           ASPN/Prime Ticket
MAR-27	   Philadelphia        ASPN/Prime Ticket
MAR-28	at Denver              KUTP (channel 45)
MAR-31     Portland            ASPN/Prime Ticket
APR-02	   Golden State        KUTP (channel 45)
APR-03	at Utah                TNT   KUTP (channel 45)
APR-05	at LA Lakers           KUTP (channel 45)
APR-07     Sacramento
APR-09	at Seattle             KUTP (channel 45)
APR-11  at Golden State        ASPN/Prime Ticket
APR-14	   Seattle             ASPN/Prime Ticket
APR-16	   San Antonio         KUTP (channel 45)
APR-19	at Houston             NBC      

>         <<< Note 98.30 by HAVASU::HEISER "briefing for the ascent" >>>
>                   -< the one you've all been waiting for! >-


Uh, is that BROKENRECORD.COM?

The Phoenix Suns helpded their chances by dumping Xavier M[a]cDaniel in a
trade to the Knicks. In return they got Jerrod Mustaf, Trent Tucker and
some draft fodder.

Now if they would just get rid of Joe Barry, maybe ...

TTom

    I haven't decided if I like this trade or not yet.  One thing I never
    understood though:  Why did X wait until he got to Phoenix before he
    decided to become a "nice" guy?  I don't think he lived up to 
    expectations.
    
    Mike

    Rev. AC Green led the Suns and Lakers in pre-game prayers in LA's first
    post-Magic game.
    
Article 2576 of clari.sports.basketball:
From: clarinews@clarinet.com
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Suns 113, Lakers 85
Date: 9 Nov 91 06:19:23 GMT
Priority: regular


	PHOENIX (UPI) -- Jeff Hornacek scored 22 points and Kevin Johnson and
Dan Majerle added 17 each Friday night, propelling the Phoenix Suns to a
113-85 rout of the somber Los Angeles Lakers.
	The Lakers, playing their first game since the surprise retirement of
teammate Magic Johnson after contracting the HIV virus, were visibly
upset prior to the game.
	Former Laker Kurt Rambis called both teams to center court just
before tipoff, where Johnson's teammate of six years, A.C. Green, led a
prayer.
 ``In this darkest of hours, we pray that our Father will give strength
	to Magic and his family,`` said Green, an ordained minister.
	Several Lakers had tears in their eyes during the national anthem,
most visibly Byron Scott, Johnson's backcourt mate for eight seasons.
	The Lakers were never in the game, missing their first five shots, 14
of their first 16 and 18 of their first 24. They fell behind in the
first two minutes of the game and never recovered, trailing by six
points after the first quarter and by 14 at halftime.
	James Worthy was visibly the most affected, missing his first nine
shots and shooting a dismal 1-for-14 before hitting his final two shots
of the first half. Worthy finished the night with 14 points on 4-for-22
shooting.
	His teammates were no better, hitting 18 of 53 shots in the first
half and 26 of 77 after three periods, when the Suns built the lead to
87-66.
	Terry Teagle paced the Lakers with 19 points, while Scott added 16
and Sam Perkins added 14. Johnson's heir apparent at point guard, Sedale
Threatt, had just three points. Starting center Vlade Divac missed his
third straight game.
	The Suns received more than 150 requests for media credentials for
the game, more than for any contest in the franchise's history,
including playoffs.

    
    The Suns fall to 3-7, after losing to the Hawks at home, 119-115, on
    Saturday evening. They are all alone in the Pcific Division cellar.
    
    - acp

    We had a celebrity in PNO last Wednesday.  Tom Van Arsdale (he and his
    twin Dick are big in the real estate investment biz as well as major
    partners in the Suns' ownership) toured thru it.
    
    BTW - The for sale or lease sign has been up since August.
    
    Mike

    How can I get access to the NBA Conference?
    
    Thanks,
    Jose

    There is no NBA conference.  Mike was referring to the Celtics
    conference which has been down since Friday.  I don't know the exact
    location, but contact moderator and host Andy Damore at OOBIE::DAMORE,
    or assistant moderator Wayne Gile at DELNI::GILE for information.
    
    John

    Information on Sports related conferences can be found in topic 24 of
    this notesfile.

    Thanks for the help.
    
    Jose

    That wasn't the ex-Cardinal, was it?
    

       "We're just keeping first place warm for Phoenix and Portland."
    
        - Don Nelson on his first place Warriors, 1/9/92

    RE: -1

              Actually I think he's trying to fool them in to relaxing! The
    way his team is playing I think inside he actually thinks they can
    keep first place (although it is going to be real hard IMO). So far 
    Golden State is still holding first place and playing exceptionally well!
    The Warriors were behind tonight to Houston for most of the game but
    came back in the 4th Quarter to steal it away from them.

                                                    Night Flier   ~~v~~

    Re: -1
    
    I don't think that strategy is working on Phoenix, especially after the
    severe beating they gave the Warriors last weekend.
    
    Mike

    KJ has really come on in the last 4 games hitting for double-doubles
    (points & assists) in all 4.
    
    Wednesday was a special day for him.  During the day, they held the
    grand opening of his St. Hope Academy in Sacramento.  Then at night, he
    went and scored 28 points and 16 assists against the Kings.
    
    Mike

    Can you imagine the current Chicago Bulls team with the addition of Dan
    Majerle?  Well it almost happened!  Thunder Dan revealed, on Monday, that
    during the NBA rookie camps, before the draft that year, Jerry Krause
    promised that he'd draft him if he sat out the camps and turned down the 
    invitation to play on the Olympic team.  Of course, Krause denies it.
    
    Lucky for Phoenix he didn't.
    
    Mike

    Mike, I gotta agree with you on Dan Majerle.  The few times that I've
    seen him on the tube the past couple of seasons, I was impressed.  I
    saw the Celtics-Suns game live a couple of weeks ago (whatta game!),
    and again, Marjerle was impressive.  Only Perry was more impressive. 
    Chambers stunk, and I was very disappointed in Hornacek.  My opinion of
    him went from fun to watch player with a great outside shot, to a
    sneaky dirty whiney player with a killer outside shot.
    
    Suns were very lucky to leave Boston Garden with a win that night. 
    They started out played excellent ball, dominating the Celts in every
    way in the 1st half, with leads as high as 14, I believe.  Then, the
    Celts made a few great runs late in the 3rd and all during the 4th, and
    had Reggie not blown a good 5 or 6 easy 10-footers in the waning
    minutes, the Celts would've won easily.  Great, down to the wire game.
    
    Hawk
    

>        -< Suns do have a very good team this year.  Perry is a force! >-
    
    Yeah and its probably the best defensive and interior passing team
    they've had since Cotton took over.  Perry is a true statement to hard
    work and dedication.  He's been collecting pine for 3 years and now is
    on the verge of All-Star status.  Against James Worthy on Monday night,
    he had 27 points (career high) 15 rebounds and 4 assists!!  He's the
    big reason for their improved team defense since he also ranks high on
    the team in blocked shots.  The guy can leap out of the gym at 6'10"!

>    saw the Celtics-Suns game live a couple of weeks ago (whatta game!),
>    and again, Marjerle was impressive.  Only Perry was more impressive. 
    
    Yeah it would be great if Reggie Lewis could defend Perry in every game
    ;-)
    
>    Chambers stunk, and I was very disappointed in Hornacek.  My opinion of
>    him went from fun to watch player with a great outside shot, to a
>    sneaky dirty whiney player with a killer outside shot.
    
    Well it's the shot that counts ;-)  I thought he was being held before
    the ref whistled him for the T.  The Suns are a finesse team and its a
    good win for them to be able to play Eastern style ball and win.
    
>    Suns were very lucky to leave Boston Garden with a win that night. 
    
    I don't think it was luck.  KJ's 3 pointer is what took the life out of
    Boston.  Just like those daggers that Bird usually throws from the 3
    point line.
    
>    had Reggie not blown a good 5 or 6 easy 10-footers in the waning
>    minutes, the Celts would've won easily.  Great, down to the wire game.
    
    He was intimidated or force to change his shot by the huge leapers that
    Phoenix has (Perry & Lang).
    
    Mike

    Maybe I'm being a little hard on Hornacek, but seeing the game live
    lets you see the action away from the ball that you don't normally see
    through the tube.  Plus, I was sitting real close (thanks to NAZZ!). 
    Gamble was dominating Hornacek for position, and Hornacek was getting
    frustrated.  They were battling!  Gamble was no saint either, but he
    was getting the better of it, forcing Hornacek to start getting dirty. 
    And, that only played into Gamble's hands, which he took advantage of,
    which frustrated Hornacek even more, which finally forced the refs'
    attention.  Actually, I couldn't blame Hornacek for getting pissed, but
    that's the game, and he should've just not whined about it.  Of course,
    once he got his hands on the ball, he forgot all about whining!
    
    Regarding Reggie, I don't think it was all defensive intimidation, I
    think he was just simply having an off game.  His shooting was poor all
    night, not just there in the end.  And, at least 2 of those potential
    game-tying shots in the end were wide-open...
    
    Hawk

    That was a very rare T on Hornacek!  He's only had a couple in his
    career.  Hornacek's story is something that I'm sure NBC will wear out on
    Sunday.  He was a walk-on at Iowa St. (couldn't get a scholarship
    anywhere), drafted by the Suns in the second round, signed a contract 
    for minimum $$.  Now he's a millionaire and an All-Star.
    
    Suns also became the first team to win 32 games last night.  This is
    excellent considering they started off at 3-8 and were tied with
    Sacramento for last place in the Pacific division.
    
    Mike

    The second Sun in the 8 year history of the Slam Dunk contest to win
    it.

    Yeah, but The Man Of Teal had a better dunk !

    They had a mascot contest?  Who won it?

    The Man of Teal (Charlotte Hornets) ... where the hell is Bob Hunt ?
    
    The MoT balanced a ball on his head, jumped off a trampoline, and
    dunked the ball with his head + a half somersault.
    
    The Gorilla threw down a monster jam too ....

 Right here, dude.   You actually want me to comment on a mascot dunking
 competition ???   Get real, Doc.
 
 Nexted thing you know, you guys will be asking me to do a weekly wrapup of
 a TV show.
 
 Bob Hunt

    I wouldn't mind having their jobs.  I know for a fact that the Gorilla
    makes $85K per year, not to mention commericals and endorsements (which
    he also does).
    
    Mike

    Not to mention that you wouldn't know him from Adam without the
    uniform. Gotta love the anynomity ...

    Seems that word out of Orlando is that the "blindfold" had a nice
    little slit in it for Ceballos to see through...
    
    REK

    So What!  He already had it won anyway.

And at the end of the year, when th Suns fold in the playoffs as usual, they will
have the luxury of knowing the year wasn't a total loss.  One of their
dudes won the slam-a-jam contest.

Now that surely is exciting.  

JD

    	And you can take it from JD there Mike, because being a Knicks
    fan he's seen more folds than a plastic surgeon.
    
    				/Don

    yeah but I extracted it, just in case I get the chance to rub his nose
    in it.

/Don -

At least the Knicks have won some  champeenships - unlike the Suns.

Mike - go ahaid and extract it.  Last I looked Tommy "Marilyn" Chambers was
still wearing a Suns uniform - and they will never win with him in the lineup.

ANd they won't win it this year. 

Best guy on the team is Marjele.  KJ is way overrated.

JD

>At least the Knicks have won some  champeenships - unlike the Suns.
    
    So they've won 1 more than Phoenix, and they were lucky to do that.
    What have they done in the 20 years since then?
    
    As for the rest, it shows what you know.  The stats don't lie.
    
    Mike

    ...but I'm still dissapointed if Ceballos used a fauxcover for his
    blindfolded dunk.  It's kind of cheaty in a MorT sort of way.
    
    				/Don

    I doubt if he cheated like MorT.  Even blind people memorize their
    surroundings.

Knicks have won more than one champeenship.

HTH.

JD

    Okay so they won 2.  I'm totally impressed.  They probably haven't
    advanced past the 2nd round in 20 years.
    
    I feel sorry for you having to root for such a team.

Mike -

Why feel sorry.  Being a fan, I root for a team through thick and thin, and 
don't leave a team for another simply because I move.  If one can't bear
to think of rooting for a team that hasn't won something in a while - then
one isn't much of a fan IMO.

JD

    Knicks made it to the conference finals against Boston in Bernard
    King's last full season with them; I seem to recall that was less than
    20 years ago.
    
    JD - right on!
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Relax JD, Heiser has been making overtures to me about becoming a Laker
    fan, after all when is the last time that Ph- ... never mind. :-)
    
    Doc

TCM-

Not only that, but Heiser's false (as usual) claim of '20 years' somehow 
misses the 1973 Champeenship - which I assume meant the Knicks lasted past
the second round.

What do you want from a team that's biggest attraction is a guy dressed in
a monkey suit that dunks.  They need FAUX gimmicks to excite the fans.

JD

Re. .75

I'm right here, Doc.  You probably haven't seen me because I usually
just note in the Lakers and Celtics conferences.  There's not too much
serious NBA talk in this conference.

Ken

That's because the NBA is hardly serious.....

    The Knicks won in 1970 and 1973....
    They lost in the finals in 1951, 1952, 1953, 1972
    1974 Boston beat Milwaukee 4 games to 3...
    
    
    
    REK

    >>  Yet when Boston fans do this they're stupid and ignorant.
    
    The Red Sox have always been in a category by themselves :-)
    
    Hmm, you may be right about 1984, anyone have the records in front of
    them??
    
    In any case Knicks did make it past the 2nd round in the last 20 years.
    
    Of course the follow on is when was the last time the Knicks made it
    past the second round, that I can't remember if it was not 1984.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    ...and to add to what /Don said:  When Celtic fans talk like that,
    they're told to step into the present and forget ancient history.
    
    As for Phoenix and the gorilla: they've given their fans a helluva lot
    more to root for than the Knicks have in the last 20 years.

    > Relax JD, Heiser has been making overtures to me about becoming a
    > Laker fan
    
    Doc, you ARE a Laker fan!

    re: .83
    
    I'll have to look up stats for Knicks and Suns over the last 20 years,
    wonder what I'll find.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Go ahead, just make sure you document your source.

    The most recent NBA Guide I have is for the 1987-88 season, so I
    honestly don't know how the teams have done from 1987-88 through
    1990-91.  I believe the Suns have made the Conference finals once and
    the Knicks not at all.  Below is a listing of the times when the teams
    have made it to the Conference Finals and the NBA Finals.
    
    New York:  Conference Finals in 1947 and 1949.  NBA Finals in 1951
    (lost to Rochester).  Conference Finals in 1952.  NBA Finals in 1953
    (lost to Minneapolis).  Then, a long drought until 1969 when they made
    it to the Conference Finals.  Won NBA title in 1970. Conference Finals
    in 1971.  NBA Finals in 1972, losing to Lakers.  Won NBA title in 1973. 
    Conference Finals in 1974.
    
    Phoenix:  NBA Finals in 1976.  Conference finals in 1979 and 1984.
    
    The Knicks have had 2 great stretches in their history, 1947-53 and
    1969-74.  They haven't done much since 1974.  During the times when the
    Suns and Knicks have co-existed, neither has been good at the same time
    but the Knicks have been better overall.  Neither has been great lately
    though Phoenix is slightly better since the Knicks last Conference
    Finals.
    
    I also agree with JD.  I lose a lot of respect for a team whose top
    attraction is a mascot.
    
    John

    I'd also suggest it has taken more perserverance for JD to have been a
    Rangers fan for as long as he has than it has been for him to have been
    a Knicks fan.
    
    John

>    honestly don't know how the teams have done from 1987-88 through
>    1990-91.  I believe the Suns have made the Conference finals once and
>    the Knicks not at all.  Below is a listing of the times when the teams
    
    Suns went there back-to-back years in '88 & '89.  Lost to LA in '88 and
    the Blazers in '89.
    
    >    Phoenix:  NBA Finals in 1976.  Conference finals in 1979 and 1984,
    >    1988, 1989.
    
>    1969-74.  They haven't done much since 1974.  During the times when the
>    Suns and Knicks have co-existed, neither has been good at the same time
>    but the Knicks have been better overall.  Neither has been great lately
>    though Phoenix is slightly better since the Knicks last Conference
>    Finals.
    
    That's baloney.  Phoenix has had 4 50+ win seasons in a row.  NY is not
    even close to that over the last 4 years.  As of the end of January,
    here are NY's and Phoenix's overall records:
    
    Team       Wins  Losses Pct
    ------------------------------
    Suns       1001  926   .519
    Knicks     1732  1779  .493
    
    Now tell me which team is better.
    
>    I also agree with JD.  I lose a lot of respect for a team whose top
>    attraction is a mascot.
    
    He may be short, but KJ is NOT a mascot!  
    
    Mike

    re: .88
    
    You got that right. With the Knicks you knew they might win, might
    lose. With the Rangers you knew they would find some way to fall just
    short. Hopefully 1992 will be different. Now back to the Suns.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    re: .89
    
    Mike,
    
    You were the one who made the statement about the last 20 years.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Mike, I didn't go through and count up regular seasons, only playoffs. 
    I did it deliberately because I didn't have time, I didn't have all the
    information, the regular season in the NBA means squat and finally,
    because I thought the argument was about playoff performance and not
    regular season performance.  Based on what you report (adding in the
    conference finals appearances in 88 and 89, or was it 89 and 90?), and
    the 50-win seasons (I'm more in tune with what the Knicks have done
    than the Suns because I don't follow the Western Conference of the NBA
    at all, I really only pay attention to the Atlantic Division) I do have
    to say that the Suns have done better than the Knicks over the last few
    years.  On the other hand,  I don't really care which team is better,
    quite frankly.  I just hate pissing contests.
    
    John

    IMO the only thing that matters over th last twenty years (73-92 if you
    count this season, or 72-91 if you don't) is that the Knicks have
    either 1 (if going by 73-92) or 2 (if 72-91) appearances in the finals,
    the SUns have one.  The knicks have a champeenship - and the Suns have
    a gorilla. 
    
    
    re: /Don -  
    The ignorant line - who was that directed towards?  I've never made
    disparaging remarks about fans sticking with their team - I've done it
    with the Rangers, the Giants, Mets, RSox, Knicks, etc..
    
    JD

    Ninj,
    
    Regarding your statement about hating somethang,
    
    Weren't you the winner in that event in the 1990 Tiggermania Baf'room
    Olympics?  Too bad ::OURGNG never did the archive.......
    
    I remain,
    pretty_sure,
    Kev
    

    So in the last 20 years (back to 1972):
    
                           Suns              Knicks
    Championships           0                  1
    Finals Appearances      1                  1
    Conference Finals       4                  0
    50+ Win seasons         ?                  ?        (fill in the blanks)
                 (at least 4, going on 5)
    
    Suns also have a higher winning percentage.
    
    Mike

    Otay Mike -
    
    If you get woodies out of 50 wiun seasons - which don't mean a thang to
    me if they don't get THE banner hanging from the rafters - then you
    cain strut yer chest about the Suns all you want.
    
    Oh, and how can the KNicks have a Championship, yet 0 in the Conference
    Finals?   A mere oversight.
    
    ANd from the 4 conference finals, only one finals appearance, it seems
    that he Suns suffer from DeanSmifitis...
    
    JD

    Congrats JD!

    
    	I think Mike would make a perfect Bronco fan......... :*)
    
    	Come on over and have a seat Mikemeboy!
    
    	Claybroon

    Mike -
    
    You mean you think you are going to 'Bush'.
    
    HTH.
    
    JD

    Have any Anti-Chambers Club members taken a glance at what the Suns
    have been doing without him?  Talk about underrated!
    
    Having followed this team for quite a few years, I noticed a pattern
    developing that has been constant over the last 4 seasons:

    - Phoenix always gets off to a slow start.  We're 3-8 and in last place
      in the Pacific (yes even behind Sacramento) during November.
    - Insert a key player (Corbin, Rambis, McDaniel, or Perry) into the
      starting lineup.
    - go on a tear from December to the All-Star break.  They were the 4th
      best team (record wise) at the break, had a 10 game winning streak,
      won 19 in a row at home, and had a winning road record.
    - post All-Star break slump coupled with an injury to a key player
    - Come back to life in March with a 13-1 record.  Both Chambers and
      Knight are due back in March.
    - Play well for the first week of April, but then a slump/injury kicks in
      and they struggle into the playoffs.
    - Always exit from playoffs earlier than expected.  Three years ago, EJ 
      hurt his fingers, and they were swept by the Lakers in the conference
      finals.  Two years ago, KJ pulled his hamstring in Game 6 (conference
      finals) against Portland.  Phoenix has to accept some blame for that-- 
      there shouldn't have _been_ a Game 6, but they blew 20 point leads in 
      Games 1 and 2.  Last year, Majerle, Chambers, and KJ were injured and
      the Jazz executed revenge on them in the first round (or was it the
      second?).

    Mike

    Mike -
    
    Those injury excuses sound like you ripped a page from ACChris' excuse
    book!  
    
    Chambers is far from underrated.  He's in the over category.  They
    won't win with him (champeenship) but they will post those
    all-important 50 win seasons, marked by earlier than expected (read:
    Choke) exits from the playoffs.
    
    JD

    JD,
    
    Sure they're excuses and they're part of the game, but very few teams
    have the depth to compete at playoff level without being full strength.
    
>    Chambers is far from underrated.  He's in the over category.  They
    
    Then explain their current slide which started when he went on IR.
    And don't tell me it is a coincidence.
    
    Mike

    Do you think Chambers will make the Hall of Fame? or is it too 
    early to even guess? 
    
    He's been in the league 10 years or so, several times an All Star
    (once MVP), once scored 70 points in a game, averaged almost 30 
    points a game a couple years ago, first big-name Free Agent. He's
    got no Championships though.
    
    How does he stack up to others who have made it recently? Lanier, 
    Cowens, any comparable forwards make it lately?
    
    

    If Connie Hawkins can do it, Chambers wouldn't be that bad of a
    candidate.

    Mike -
    
    Actually I don't hate him.  I don't know him.  In fact, I'm not sure if
    I can name someone I hate.  Basically it isn't in my nature.  I do
    think he's a selfish stats runner.   He's never seen a shot he hasn't
    liked.  And I don't consider him a good team player.  IMO, he doesn't
    have the heart to be a champeen - because he'd have to share the glory
    with others.  
    
    The way the game is played today, there are a ton of potential hall of
    famers.  Chambers is among them.  He cain fill up the hoop.
    
    JD

               G MIN   REB   AST STL BLK PTS
    Chambers  46 1295  274    95  39  21 729
                 
                 Mpg   Rpg   Apg   Dpg   Ppg
                28.1  5.95  2.06   1.3  15.84
    
    His shooting and rebounding are down this year too.
    
    Mike

    Mike -
    
    A bowl game isn't a person.   I hate red cabbage cuz it makes me ill. 
    
    
    Chambers has never been, IMO, a real rebounding force.  He gets em, al
    lright - a bunch are follow ups to his misses.   Hey, you cain like
    him.
    
    I said he wouldn't lead Phoenix to a title, and I stick to it.  He'll
    put up nice stats.  But when it counts, the Suns will set early.
    
    JD

    Also,  
    
    he' certainly does rack up the assists and blocked shots....
    
    JD

    The Suns have won their second in a row, now that the *VERY* underrated
    Tom "Mr. Selfish" Chambers is back in the lineup.  Chambers scored 29 
    points and had 9 rebounds to lead the Suns to a 104-95 victory over the 
    New York Knicks.  Hornacek's three-point play and 3-pointer, followed by 
    a pair of free throws from Chambers, turned a 1-point game into a 93-84 
    Suns' lead with 4:36 remaining.  KJ added 25 points for Phoenix and 
    Hornacek had 22.  Ewing had 37 points (25 in the first half and 19 in the 
    first quarter!) and 10 rebounds for the Knicks. Wilkins scored 22.
    
    Suns did an excellent job in the second half in stopping Ewing.  Cotton
    put the bigger, more physical Mark West on him, and had Chambers double
    him every time he touched the ball.  It payed off as he only had 12
    points under that defense.
    
    The most amazing thing:  Tom "Mr. Selfish" Chambers had *6 ASSISTS* to
    go with his 29 points and 9 boards last night.  In Friday's game
    against the Warriors, he also had *6 ASSISTS*.  That's 14 total assists
    in the 3 games since he's been back (2 against the Clips), in addition
    to 21+ points and 6+ boards per game.
    
    Mike

    
    
    Wow, CHambers has 14 assists in 3 games.  Must be career highs.  Maybe
    someone hit him upside the haid while he was out.
    
    Game shows that despite gains, the KNicks still have a way to go before
    being real title contenders...
    
    JD

    Well in his first game back he had 25 pts, 7 rebs, and 6 asts.  Last
    night he had 29 pts, 9 rebs, and 6 asts.  Those are great numbers for
    anybody.
    
    Re: Knicks
    
    Tim Perry, X's replacement on the Suns, totally dominated Mr. X.  He had 7
    points for the game and Oakley only had 2.  Perry is much too quick and
    too big for X to handle offensively or defensively.  That and the
    defense of Ewing in the second half were the big differences.
    
    Mike

>Note 6.1152         The National Basketball Association (NBA)       1152 of 1157
>CNTROL::CHILDS "make the right choice, Tsongas"      12 lines  26-FEB-1992 07:57
>
>Hey Mike,  then why is Golden State in first and not Phoenix?
    
    Because of their typically poor start.  After starting off 3-8, they
    are now 34-21.  That spells out to be 31-13 since mid-November.

>           it maybe that KJ does out score Hardeway but I'm sure he doesn't
>           shut him down.
    
    I never said KJ shut him down.  When these 2 teams meet there isn't a
    lot of defense going around.  Both teams score at least 120.

>           Owens may have been green the last time they met but his game
>           has picked up. He can mix it up with the besr of them.
    
    Well he hasn't impressed me against the Suns.  Perry is too much for
    him to handle.

>	   Who can stop Mullins?
    
    Nobody (see above), but he can't stop anyone either.  Phoenix has too
    many horses for him.  The Warriors are something like 4-12 against the
    Suns over the last few years.

    Mike

    
    103-100 Suns last night.. didn't catch the game, and no box score in
    todays paper..  Mike, can you fill me in, please..  
    
    Musta been a good one.
    
    /Jeff

Hornacek scored 28 points and KJ deflected an inbounds pass off Craig Ehlo
with 11 seconds remaining, lifting the Suns to a 103-100 victory over the
Cavs in a real barnburner at Phoenix.  

The Suns converted six free throws in the final 11.4 seconds -- two
each by Thunder Dan, Tommy Gun and Hornacek -- to take their 24th victory in
28 home games this season.

With Cleveland leading 98-97, Thunder Dan's free throws with 11.4 seconds
remaining put the Suns ahead to stay.  Cleveland immediately took a timeout,
but Ehlo had to rush his inbounds pass and KJ got a hand on the ball and
knocked it back off Ehlo while he still was standing out of bounds.  Tommy Gun
made two free throws with 10 seconds left to boost the Phoenix lead to 101-98.
Brad Daugherty closed the gap to 101-100 with a rebound layup (off Hot Rod's
missed 3 point attempt) with 4.2 seconds remaining.  Hornacek iced the victory
with a pair of free throws with 3.2 seconds on the clock. He hit 11 of 14
field-goal attempts on the night and all six free throws.

KJ finished with 23 points and 17 assists for the Suns (and schooled Price while
making Cav's management question whether they traded the right guard or not),
while Tommy Gun had 15 points and Thunder Dan and Perry 12 apiece. Perry led
Phoenix in rebounding with 10.

Daugherty had 32 points and 13 rebounds for the Cavs, who opened a
six-game Western road swing. Mark Price had 18 points, John Battle 13 and Hot
Rod 12. Larry Nance, the Cavs' No. 2 scorer on the season, made only 2 of 10
shots from the floor and finished with 4 points, 13 below his average.

The Suns led 67-57 in the third quarter before Cleveland went on a 15-4 run in
the final 4:56 of the quarter that gave the Cavs a 72-71 lead entering the
final period.  Phoenix rallied to an 85-80 advantage with 7:15 left in the
game, but a layup by Battle and dunk by Hot Rod pulled Cleveland within
85-84 and no more than three points separated the teams the rest of the
way.

Both teams shot poorly, but some of that can be attributed to defense.  The
Suns shot 43.8% and the Cavs 38.4% from the floor.  The Cavs went to the line 3
more times than Phoenix, but only shot 76.7% from the line as the Suns hit for
92.6%.

This marked the second game in a row that a Eastern team tried to play slo-down
ugly ball to keep the Suns from running them out of the building.  It was also
the second game in a row that the Suns beat an Eastern team at their own game.

Mike

    Congrats Mike !
    
    You should hear very little from a certain noter for the next few days
    anyhow !

>    Hey Mike, if Suns have a match up advantage against the Warriors, how
>    come Suns are 1-2 against the Warrirors this season ?
>                   
>    -- Ram Nori
    
    Ram, how come the Lakers don't have a winning record against any team
    over .500?
    
    The Warriors won the first game in Oakland, 117-116, back in November
    during the Suns 6 game losing streak.  Perry was not starting then and
    Cotton hadn't worked out his rotation yet.  So they lost by 1 on the
    road during the low point of their season, no biggie.
    
    Suns beat them by 20 on their first trip to Phoenix on January 11. 
    This was the Warriors first test against the new and improved Suns. 
    They failed miserably.
    
    The last meeting was Februrary 21 in Oakland.  Suns blew a 14 point
    lead late in the 3rd against an inspired team (because Mullin was out).
    The final was something like 123-116 (I remember a 7 point margin).
    Believe it or not, his replacements (Alexander and Hill) gave the Suns
    more problems.  It was also Chambers first game back off IR so the club
    was a little out of sync.  Mullin is a much larger defensive liability
    than his subs.
    
    I have no doubts that the Suns will win the series.  They meet again
    April 2 in Phoenix and April 11 in Oakland.
    
    Mike

    
    Payback 3/10.  3 pt. victory at home.. they must be going ALL the way!
    
    

>                            -< No real damage done >-
    
    Yeah especially when they're 8 games out.  The rematch will be
    interesting though.  If the law of averages keep their trend, the Cavs
    will win.  I think all of the top 10 teams (east vs. west) have split
    their 2 games against each other.
    
    Mike

    
    No big deal.  The Suns won at home.  How much were they favored by.
    I expect that Cleveland will win their home game and they'll split
    the season series.  Cavs are still in line for the second best
    record in the East.  There is no way they'll catch Chicago, and they'll
    have to be lucky to get past them and into the finals.  They have
    dominated the other tops teams in the conference like Detroit and
    New York, so I don't see them having any problem getting deep into 
    the playoffs.
    
    

    The most hilarious comment I've heard in months was printed in Tuesday
    morning's paper.  Pat Riley accused the Suns of playing a zone after
    the Knicks lost in Phoenix!
    
    Mike

    
    
    With Chambers in there (the poor defensive and selfish offensive
    player that he is) the Suns need to play a zone.  :-)  :-)  :-)
    
    

    We'll swap you for Daugherty!

    
    
    Daugherty is a man possesed this year..   He's dominated the best of 
    the bunch all year long..  
    
    /Jeff

    Yo Jeff, how about we trade you Ruland and the Sixer's number one for
    Daughtery ?
    
    Fair enough ? 
    
    Hell, I'll throw in Manute Bol ....
    
    Doc

       Gee didn't the 6ers have a chance to draft 'ol Brad about 6 years
    ago? Musta got some NUKEWIDEBODIES in that deal eh?
                                   Denny

    Ah ... now you're catching on ! :-)

    
    Probably belongs in the Cavs or Sixers topic, but..  Whatever happened 
    to Hinson?  
    
    At the time he was drafted, there was concern that Brad was too soft for 
    the NBA.. over the last two years he has bulked up and noone doubts his 
    toughness now, that's for sure.  
    
    /Jeff  

    Roy Hinson was last seen in the NBA playing fot the Jersey Nets. He has
    no cartiledge left in one of his knees and can no longer play...... but
    he has been talking to Jeff Ruland about the procedure that Ruland had
    done to his knee by Dr. Steadman, which drills into the knee and forms
    scar tissue that acts like cartlidge. Last I read here in Philadelphia
    (where Hinson used to play) is that Roy will be getting it done and
    trying to return to the NBA.
    
    Dennis
    

    Tom Chambers scored 7 of his 17 points in OT last night and KJ scored the 
    go-ahead basket on a driving layup to pace the Suns to a 112-107 win over 
    the Rockets.  
    
    Hakeem's game-high 38th point and sixth point of OT came on a right-handed
    skyhook in the lane, giving Houston a 104-103 lead.  Then KJ drove the 
    lane on the Suns' next possession and scored over two defenders to hand 
    the Suns the lead for good at 105-104.
    
    While Houston was going scoreless for the next 1:32, Chambers hit a
    field goal to give Phoenix a 3-point advantage and Jeff Hornacek nailed
    a decisive 3-pointer.
    
    KJ finished with 19 points on 8 of 19 shooting from the field, and dished 
    out 16 assists. Hornacek led the Suns with 22 points and Thunder Dan
    topped the team with 13 rebounds.
    
    Hakeem also ripped down 15 rebounds and blocked seven shots. Vern Maxwell 
    added 17 points for the Rockets and Buck Johnson had 14.  The Rockets had 
    their winning streak halted at 4 games. The Suns have won 6 straight at
    home, where they have the NBA's third-best record at 26-4.

    re: Suns' OT win over Rockets...
    
    I missed the last play of regulation where Houston obviously hit a
    trey, cause before the commercial break, the Suns went up by 3 on, I
    believe, 2 free throws by West, and there were only a few seconds left. 
    Who hit it for Houston?
    
    Hawk
    

    I was listening to it on the radio and missed it too.  My guess would
    be Maxwell.  Kenny Smif is a Tar Heel so he would've choked ;-)

    Mike,
    
    Big game tonight between the revitalized SuperEunics and your Suns.
    Should be a good one.  The Stupors beat the Suns awhile back, and
    usually do well against 'em.  It's on Seattle TV tonight.  I'll be
    watching.
    
    What's the deal with Chambers?  I've been reading a few box scores
    lately and he doesn't seem to be doing much.  Also, it looks like
    X-man is averaging about 3 points a game lately with the Knicks.
    Is it the Seattle curse at work?  
    
    Pete

    Chambers had 25 last night in the suns victory

    The Stupes made all the Suns look great last night.  It was a KC
    Jones team-like performance.  The Suns just blew 'em away in the 
    second half.  It seemed like every time I looked, KJ, Chambers,
    Majerle or Hornacek was making a layin or dunk.  I haven't seen the
    Sonics look so sluggish in a long time.  EJ and Big Ben especially had
    off nights.  Kemp was a terror on the boards, though.  He had 19 in a
    reserve role.  
    
    The Suns are tough at home.  They'll still need a bit more depth to 
    make much of a run in the playoffs.  They need Knight back soon or
    KJ will drop from exhaustion by the end of the season.  
    
    The Suns and Sonics just might meet in the first round of the playoffs.
    It would be a good series.
    
    Pete

>    The Suns are tough at home.  They'll still need a bit more depth to 
>    make much of a run in the playoffs.  They need Knight back soon or
>    KJ will drop from exhaustion by the end of the season.  
    
    Suns have the league's 3rd best home record.  Knight is eligible to
    come off IR now.  I hope he's ready.  We're approaching the end of the
    season where KJ seems to be more injury prone.  I think a lot of it is
    fatigue related and Knight is needed to avoid this.
    
>    The Suns and Sonics just might meet in the first round of the playoffs.
>    It would be a good series.
    
    Suns in 4 ;-)
    
    Mike (who didn't watch the game)

    KJ scored 8 of his 24 points during a key stretch in the 3rd quarter 
    Thursday night that sent the Phoenix Suns to a 118-105 triumph over the 
    Seattle Supersonics.  KJ, who added 12 assists, scored 8 points in the 
    final 6:20 of the 3rd quarter that helped the Suns break away from a 68-68 
    tie to a 90-80 lead entering the final period.
     
    Phoenix ran its homecourt record to 27-4 and gave Cotton Fitzsimmons
    his 300th career victory as Suns' coach.  Tom Chambers scored 27 points 
    and grabbed 10 rebounds and Dan Majerle added 25 points for the Suns.
    
    Ricky Pierce scored 23 points for Seattle, Dana Barros came off the
    bench to score 19 and Shawn Kemp collected 18 points and 19 rebounds for
    the Sonics.

    The Suns lost anohyter game on the road last night to the Spurs, who
    made them look bad.  Chambers was a scorching 5-13 from the field.
    
    I think that's 7 losses in a row on the road. hard to be a champeen if
    you caint win on da road.
    
    JD

    yeah, for some strange reason, they're struggling from the road this
    year.

    ...and right after we enter the last 2 replies, the Suns go off and win
    3 in a row on the road.  They finished their longest road trip of the
    season at 3-2.

Article: 3946
From: clarinews@clarinet.com
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Suns 128, Trail Blazers 111
Date: 1 Apr 92 06:03:47 GMT
 
 
	PHOENIX (UPI) -- Jeff Hornacek scored 17 of his 34 points in the third
quarter Tuesday night to spark Phoenix to a 128-111 rout of the Portland
Trail Blazers that clinched the Suns a spot in the NBA playoffs.
	The victory also gave Phoenix Coach Cotton Fitzsimmons his 800th win
in the NBA.
	Hornacek singlehandedly outscored the Trail Blazers 10-6 during a
span of 1:31 late in the third quarter, propelling Phoenix to an 85-76
lead. Kevin Johnson and Dan Majerle then took over and led the Suns to a
100-82 advantage at the end of the third quarter.
	The Suns hit 76 percent of their shots from the field in the third
quarter and scored 44 points, their highest-scoring quarter of the
season.
	Portland never got closer than 16 points in the final quarter. The
Suns' largest lead was 26 points in the closing minutes.
	Johnson had 27 points, Majerle 18, Tim Perry 15 and Andrew Lang 12
for the Suns, who shot 59.5 percent from the floor and held Portland to
to 47.1 percent.
	Terry Porter led the Trail Blazers with 20 points. Jerome Kersey
scored 16 and Clyde Drexler and Danny Ainge had 14 each. Drexler,
Portland's leading scorer with a 25.2 average, made only four of 17
field goal attempts.
	Phoenix made five of its first six shots in the game and never
trailed. The score was tied only once, at 2-2. The Suns led 27-23 at the
end of the first quarter and pulled out to a 33-24 margin with 10:20
left in the first half after Portland turned over the ball on four
straight possessions early in the second period.
	The Trail Blazers committed 21 turnovers in the game, which Phoenix
converted into 38 points. The Suns had only nine turnovers.
	Portland, the Pacific Division leader, suffered its second straight
loss on the heels of a 107-96 loss to the New York Knicks on Sunday.
Phoenix took its season series against the Trail Blazers 3-2.

KJ had 20 assists with those 27 points.

TTom

    Naturally TTom, glad you've seen the light ;-)
    
    Actually, maybe the Suns realize that this year is a golden opportunity
    for them to win the West.  They can handle Portland and Golden St. 
    Problem teams for them like the Spurs shouldn't pose a threat now that
    the Admiral is out.  This week should give a real indicator:
    
    APR-02     Golden State        KUTP (channel 45)
    APR-03  at Utah                TNT   KUTP (channel 45)
    APR-05  at LA Lakers           KUTP (channel 45)
    
    ...and the rest of the season is like this:
    
    APR-07     Sacramento
    APR-09  at Seattle             KUTP (channel 45)
    APR-11  at Golden State        ASPN/Prime Ticket
    APR-14     Seattle             ASPN/Prime Ticket
    APR-16     San Antonio         KUTP (channel 45)
    APR-19  at Houston             NBC
    
    Mike

>                <<< Note 98.147 by FRETZ::HEISER "maranatha!" >>>
                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^


GREAT bread!

    Ah ... the typical end of the season Suns' over an opponent that is
    ahead of them in the standings, sparking hope in the heart of Heiser.
    
    But we all know the pattern ... the win, the hope, the first round win,
    the 2nd round annihilation, then the start of the nexted season ... the
    late-season win, the hope ... :-)
    
    The Doc

>GREAT bread!

Saw, I didn't know it was a brand of bread.


    Mike
    
    "in this day & age...music performed by humans...hum?!" 
       - wilde silas tomkyn

>>GREAT bread!
>
>Saw, I didn't know it was a brand of bread.


Yes.  It's found in health food stores, and is chocked full of all
kinds of grain.  Suprisingly enough, it doesn't taste half bad....8^)



And *I* know here you got that quote from you keep signing off with 8^) 8^) 8^)


'Saw

>And *I* know here you got that quote from you keep signing off with 8^) 8^) 8^)
    
    I think its from one you don't have though.
    
    Mike
    
    "it's not just for the dead?...Hum!?" - Wilde Silas Tomkyn

>Yes.  It's found in health food stores, and is chocked full of all
>kinds of grain.  Suprisingly enough, it doesn't taste half bad....8^)
    
    Is it Aramaic too (like the name)?  I'll have to look for it.  I
    frequent a health food store here that goes by the same name.
    
    Mike

re the quote:

	Okay, maybe I spoke too soon. I saw the name the quote was attributed
	too, and made an assumption..


re the bread:

	Nope.  It comes in a regular loaf, and the wrapper has some grain
	pictures on it, I think.  It's been a while since I've been in
	the health food store....


'Saw

>	pictures on it, I think.  It's been a while since I've been in
>	the health food store....
    
    well big boy, you're gonna have to start visiting more often! ;-)

    Did any of you Seattle folks see the game last night?  I heard Chambers
    didn't play but didn't catch any other details other than the score.
    
    Mike

I heard that Dan the Majerle Man led the assault up to the time he got
ejected for a flagrant foul. Ceballos also had a big game subbing for
Chambers.

TTom

    they beat them *AND* beat them up!
    
Article 4084 of clari.sports.basketball:
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From: clarinews@clarinet.com
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Suns 122, SuperSonics 100
Keywords: basketball, men's professional
Message-ID: <bkp-sunsU2AL215ae@clarinet.com>
Date: 15 Apr 92 06:12:27 GMT

	PHOENIX (UPI) -- Dan Majerle scored 23 points and grabbed seven
rebounds Tuesday night to lead the Phoenix Suns to a 122-100 victory
over the Seattle SuperSonics.
	The victory, the Suns' first in three games, avenged a 119-104 loss
to the SuperSonics five days earlier and gave the Suns a 3-2 edge in the
season series between the Pacific Division rivals.
	Cedric Ceballos, starting in place of the injured Tom Chambers,
scored 22 points for the Suns. Jeff Hornacek added 17 points, Kevin
Johnson 14 and Andrew Lang 12. Chambers sat out the game with a sprained
left ankle.
	Shawn Kemp led Seattle with 26 points and 11 rebounds. Ricky Pierce
with 16 points and Derrick McKey with 11 were the other SuperSonics in
double figures.
	Majerle's night ended when he was ejected for a flagrant foul with
1:18 remaining in the game, during which the benches were cleared twice
and five technical fouls were called.
	Majerle and Seattle's Bart Kofoed tangled after Majerle had partially
blocked a layup by Bart Kofoed. Majerle came out of the tussle in the
end zone with blood running down his left cheek. He required eight
stitches for a cut under his left eye that resulted from his fall to the
floor.
	Another melee broke out with 3:48 remaining in the first half and
Phoenix leading 48-39. Pierce ended a string of Seattle offensive
rebounds by hitting a layup and ended up on his back on the floor.
Seattle's Tony Brown and Phoenix's Andrew Lang squared off and both
benches cleared. Brown, Lang and Kemp all ended up with technical fouls
in that exchange. Before halftime, Seattle's Gary Payton and Coach
George Karl also were whistled for technicals.
	Phoenix scored the first 10 points of the game and never trailed. The
only tie was at 33-33 with 8:31 remaining in the first half. The Suns
then went on a 12-2 run in a span of 3:33 to build a 45-35 lead. They
led 64-45 at halftime and 91-72 at the end of three quarters. The Suns'
largest lead was 30 points.
	Phoenix hit 50.6 percent for the game compared with 38.4 percent for
Seattle. The Suns wound up with a 44-41 edge in rebounding and a 29-17
advantage in assists. Johnson had 11 assists.

    Rearrange the letters in Dan Majerle and you get:
    
    	Danjer Male
    	
        A Jam le' Nerd  
    
    	Made Learn "J"
    

    Suns play their last regular season game in Veterans Memorial Coliseum 
    tonight.  The America West Arena (from the people that brought you The 
    Palace and Delta Center) is just about done.  They have concerts booked 
    for next month.
    
    Mike

Article: 4104
From: clarinews@clarinet.com
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Suns 121, Spurs 101
Date: 17 Apr 92 05:42:53 GMT
 
 
	PHOENIX (UPI) -- Cedric Ceballos, starting in place of Jeff Hornacek,
scored 27 points and pulled down 13 rebounds Thursday night to lead the
Phoenix Suns to a 121-101 victory over the San Antonio Spurs.
	Phoenix, 52-29, equalled its best-ever home record of 36-5 set in
1979-80 and tied in 1980-81.
	Five other Suns scored in double figures. Ed Nealy, also getting a
rare start, had 17 points, while Jerrod Mustaf added 15, Tim Perry and
Mark West 14 each and Andrew Lang 12.
	Hornacek had started all 80 games this season until he decided to sit
out Thursday night with a sore left knee that had bothered him for a
week. Nealy started at forward instead of Tom Chambers, who missed his
second game with a ligament sprain above his left ankle.
	Both Hornacek and Chambers are being evaluated on a day-to-day basis
and are expected to be available when the NBA playoffs begin next week.
	Sean Elliott led San Antonio with 20 points. Terry Cummings added 19,
Antoine Carr had 14 and Rod Strickland and Vinnie Johnson contributed 11
each. San Antonio also was without two starters -- David Robinson, who
missed his 12th game because of a hand injury, and Willie Anderson, out
with a leg injury.
	Ceballos scored six of his points in the first six minutes of the
game, when Phoenix pulled away to a 20-8 lead. San Antonio never got
closer than eight points the rest of the game.
	The Suns led 37-22 at the end of the first quarter, 63-53 at halftime
and 93-76 at the end of three quarters.
	Nealy hit all six shots from the floor, half of those three-point
goals. Ceballos hit 10 of 15 field-goal attempts and West 7 of 10.
	The Suns hit 50 percent from the floor to San Antonio's 43 percent
and controlled the boards 58-44. Behind Ceballos, West had 12 rebounds,
Perry nine and Lang eight. Cummings had 10 boards for San Antonio.
	The victory marked the final regular-season game for the Suns at
Veterans Memorial Coliseum, their home for the past 24 seasons. They
have sold out 100 straight games at the building, which seats 14,496.
	Next season, the team will move to the new $89 million America West
Arena in downtown Phoenix.

    
    re: .164
    
    Mike, are you related to Tommy Heinsohn?
    
    "Suns blast Spurs while Hornacek and Chambers sit"
    
    I guess you forgot to mention that Anderson and Robinson were out
    for the Spurs.
    

      Mike,  did Phoenix decide to build this new stadium because of
    structural problems with Veterans?
    
      I lived in Phoenix from 80-82 and I remember the roof having a crack
    in it or something like that....
    
      I remember them being "concerned" about having "loud" rock concerts
    there....
    
    	Just curious,
    
    		Tim

    Tim, they built it because Colangelo wanted his own facility and it
    will hold 20K for basketball games (6K more than the Coliseum).  The 
    Suns already moved their office into the stadium.  Colangelo also
    started the Arizona Rattlers (arena football team) and they will play
    in the same arena.
    
    Re: Groaner
    
    Everyone already knows the Admiral and Anderson are out.  Hornacek and
    Chambers sitting was new info.
    
    Mike

The Lakers and their fans are very grateful today for the Suns playing up
to their own level and beating Houston. This, of course, allowed the
Lakers to make the playoffs.

TTom

    If I were the Laker fans I would not be so grateful to the Suns. 
    The upcoming draft has very good "lottery" players and Shaq, Mourning,
    or Lattner would do more for the Lakers then being blown out by
    Portland in round 1 of the playoffs.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

      re-   Portland proved Saturday that they can choke,  and LA has been
    able to beat them in the "recent" past.....Portland is missing some
    starters.
    
      Thanks for the info Mike.....
    
    	Tim

Article 4125 of clari.sports.basketball:
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From: clarinews@clarinet.com
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Suns 100, Rockets 97

	HOUSTON (UPI) -- Jeff Hornacek scored 7 points during an 9-1 fourth-
quarter spurt Sunday night and the Phoenix Suns held off Houston 100-97,
costing the Rockets a playoff berth.
	The Rockets would have clinched the eighth and final Western
Conference playoff berth would a victory, but that spot went to the Los
Angeles Lakers after their 109-108 overtime victory over the Los Angeles
Clippers Sunday night in the last NBA game of the season.
	Houston finished 42-20, one game behind the Lakers. The Rockets won
the season series over Los Angeles and would have advanced if the teams
tied.
	The Rockets closed the season with three straight losses, including
their first home loss to Phoenix since April 13, 1989.
	With the score tied 82-82, Hornacek hit two medium-range jumpers and
a 3-pointer and Kevin Johnson scored on a drive, giving the Suns a 91-83
lead with 4:59 left.
	The Rockets staged a furious rally behind Hakeem Olajuwon, who had 39
points and 16 rebounds. Olajuwon's 3-point play with 3:22 left ended a
Houston drought of nearly five minutes without a basket. Kenny Smith
drilled a 3-pointer 27 seconds later to make it 94-89.
	Tim Perry scored on a drive but Olajuwon hit a turnaround with 2:20
left and a short jumper 30 seconds later, making it 96-93. After a
turnover, Olajuwon made a hook and the Rockets were within 96-95.
	Andrew Lang and Olajuwon traded baskets before Johnson was fouled by
Kenny Smith and made two free throws with 16.2 seconds left.
	Sleepy Floyd missed a desperation 3-pointer at the buzzer.
	Hornacek finished with 18 points and Johnson added 17 to pace six
Phoenix players in double figures. Tim Perry had 16 points, Lang 13 and
Cedric Ceballos and Dan Majerle 12 each for the Suns. Otis Thorpe had 23
points and 11 rebounds for Houston.
	Olajuwon made two turnaround jumpers Buck Johnson added a basket to
give Houston a 61-55 lead early in the third quarter. Hornacek's 20-
footer capped a 6-0 run that tied it 61-61 with 7:05 left in the
quarter.
	A dunk and layup by Majerle gave the Suns a 75-69 lead. Olajuwon's
free throws, Houston's first of the game, made it 75-71 after three
quarters.
	Olajuwon scored 6 points in a 10-2 run that gave Houston a 23-13 lead
with 3:04 left in the first quarter. Johnson responded with a pair of
long jumpers and the Suns closed to 27-21 after one period.
	Olajuwon added 10 points in the second quarter. His turnaround jumper
with 4:10 left gave the Rockets a 44-35 lead. But Ceballos scored on a
pair of short shots in an 8-0 spurt that trimmed Houston's lead to 44-
43. The Rockets led 48-47 at halftime.

    Yeah Portland can choke and some starters sat out against LA last week.
    But everyone has off till Thursday/Friday and I just don;t see LA
    winning more than 1 game agaionst Portland this time around. No
    personal interest in this since I neither adore or detest either of
    these teams.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

The Rockets can only blame themselves for missing the playoffs.  The 
suspension of Hakeem Olajuwon reeks of tanking.

Bob Hunt

    But tanking these days is a real crapshoot. The odds are against
    Houston geting one of the top 3 picks.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    re -.1
    
    Yeah, but it is a good chance to take. However, I think that Houston
    played it straight, after the abuse they took back in '84 over alleged
    tanking.
    
    And I'd rather see the Lakers make the lottery myself. They can beat
    the Blazers, but without Magic and Worthy, and Divac not playing up to
    his previous level, this will be a short ride in the playoffs.
    
    Doc

    Sir Charles is at it again.  He's released his top 5 choices of teams
    to be traded to:
    
    1. Phoenix Suns (YES! c'mon down Charles!)
    2. Portland
    3. L.A. Lakers
    4. L.A. Clippers
    5. Seattle Sonics
    
    Mike

    Why does he want to go out West so bad?
    

    cuz that's where all the best teams are!

  
Dream on Mike...All the west has is parity....

    Parity.. The west will have the most balls in the lottery because
    they bottom teams sip so bad.  The west does have alot of good teams
    but if they cant win the big dance what good is it.  The best team
    in the west was tied (record) with the #2 team in the east.
    
    Just curious does anyone have a east VS west record for this season
    Id bet the east won but would like to see it to be sure.  I think the
    east has more talant this year....(granted the west suffered alot
    of injuries and no Magic)
    								MaB

 The West sips they still can't play defense when it counts. Brooks go back
 through the the NBA note Jeff Needle posted the stats about a month ago and
 the East was beating the West.

 Case in point Portland winning by 15 last night when they had 34 at the half.
 Why? No defense, sloppy play, let's trade baskets. That's the best of the
 West?

 I'm sure Chicago is more worried about getting out of the East then who they
 might face from the West....

 only problem is Chicago ain't getting out of the East alive...

 mike

    
 > only problem is Chicago ain't getting out of the East alive...
    
    Mike,  I didn't no you had such respect for the CAVs  ;-)
    
    Saturday May 9th..  Golf!  
    
    /Jeff
    

    The Celtics and the Cavs are the 2 teams in the east that could
    give Chicago a run for there mondy, and Luckily Chicago will
    only have to face one of them (More then likely in the eastern
    finals).  They should have no problem with Miami (sorry Kathy) and
    then if they get Detroit look for old (current) fueds to continue
    and we just may see a repeat of last year (Get out the broooomsss).
    But the real game will be the eastern finals.  Like this year in
    football where everyone said SF was the best team (but didnt make
    the playoffs).  Boston right now is the Best and Hottest team in
    the NBA 18 out of there last 19, won there 1st ever playoff game
    without bird, brown is still out and there still winning.  The big
    2 and add reggie as the #3 (New big 3) are playing great.  Boston VS
    Cleveland should be a great series...
    
    WHAT HAPPENED TO GS LAST NIGHT !!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    								MaB

CAVS certainly have a better chance than anyone out West of dethroning
the Jordanires...

mike    

    
    I believe the West won 2 games more than the East in East-West games...
    that surprised me because the West had a HUGE lead early in the season.

    BFD ... let's waint for the Finals ...
    
    Hey Mike, you are Barkley fan now ?

>    Hey Mike, you are Barkley fan now ?
    
    I don't root for individuals.
    
    Re: East vs. West
    
    Just because a team goes from 34 to 15 points up it's because of poor
    defense and not putting in the subs?!  Sounds like some Windex is in
    order here!  Besides, the West won more games.  CASE CLOSED!
    
    Mike

 The West sips Mike read my lips the West sips. The best of the East owns
 the best of the West. 

 Portland wasn't playing that many subs in the second half last night. They
 blew it last year against LA. Your Suns blew it two years ago against
 Portland when they firmly had the series in hand if they could have played
 some D. West is all show....

 

    Re: -1
    
    Oh you mean the Portland conference final when KJ went down.  At least
    the Suns have beaten the Blazers without him a couple times.  The Celts
    haven't beaten them without Bird in the last few years.  
    
    As for the best of the east vs. the best of the west, the Suns,
    Blazers, Warriors, and Jazz have all split against the Bulls, Celtics,
    Cavs, and Knicks.  You still need Windex...
    
Article 4138 of clari.sports.basketball:
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From: clarinews@clarinet.com
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Suns turn from Fitzsimmons to Westphal

	PHOENIX (UPI) -- Paul Westphal will replace Cotton Fitzsimmons as
coach of the Phoenix Suns next season.
	Jerry Colangelo, the club's president and chief executive officer,
made the announcement Thursday, a day before Phoenix opens its first-
round playoff series against the San Antonio Spurs.
	Fitzsimmons, who has led the Suns to a team-record 50 or more wins
four straight seasons, will resume front-office duties as the club's
director of player personnel. The current Suns coaching staff of
Fitzsimmons, Westphal and Lionel Hollins will remain unchanged for the
playoffs.
	Fitzsimmons met with his players for 30 minutes Thursday before
meeting with reporters. The change had been expected, as Colangelo hired
Fitzsimmons to groom Westphal for the head coaching position.
	``There has already been some speculation about whether or not I'd be
coming back to coach next year,'' Fitzsimmons said. ``I decided to
announce my plans right now, so the team can focus on the playoffs,
without that kind of distraction.
	``When I came back to Phoenix in 1987, it was as director of player
personnel. I had no intention of coaching this team. When Jerry asked me
to take over the coaching job, I agreed, but it was always a temporary
arrangement. I've always said that all coaching jobs are temporary. My
intentions back then were to close out the Coliseum, but I expected that
was going to happen last year.''
	Fitzsimmons, 60, is 805-745 in 19 NBA seasons with the Suns, Atlanta
Hawks, Buffalo Braves, Kansas City Kings and San Antonio Spurs. He began
his NBA coaching career in 1970 with Phoenix, staying for two seasons.
	``We have said all along that Paul Westphal will be the next head
coach of the Suns, whenever Cotton and Paul were ready to make the
change,'' Colangelo said. ``Well, that time has come, that decision has
been made. Cotton will close out the Coliseum era for the Suns, and Paul
will open the next chapter at the new America West Arena.''
	``Cotton helped turn this franchise around over the last four years.
Winning over 200 games during that time is nothing short of sensational.
We can't thank him enough for what he's accomplished, but I think he's
still got a few surprises left for us before he's through.''
	Westphal is completing his fourth year as a Suns assistant following
two seasons as coach at Phoenix's Grand Canyon College, where he led the
Antelopes to the NAIA title in 1987-88. He began his coaching career at
Southwestern College in Phoenix in 1984.
	Westphal was a five-time NBA All-Star. He played 12 seasons with the
Suns, Boston Celtics, New York Knicks and Seattle SuperSonics.
	Westphal will retain Hollins as one assistant, while team scout and
former NBA head coach Scotty Robertson will be the other.
	``It's been a great learning experience on the bench with Cotton
these last four years,'' Westphal said. ``I'm looking forward to the
challenge of being an NBA head coach and to continuing what Cotton has
begun.''

    What ! The Puns have a new arena for next year ?
    
    Will you guys finally wax the floor in this arena ? That place they
    play at now needs a buffer the way Don King needs a comb ...

    Well if you paid attention to the last 10 replies or so, you'd know that.
    
    Mike

    -3, I dont know about the rest of those teams, but Chicago Swept the
    season series with Portland this year... I know someone will come up
    with some sort of excuse's.  But with the sweep and finishing 10 games
    ahead of them Even a Blind person could see the LIght (and the better
    team).  Im not saying that Chicago will beat any team in the west, 
    There's too many factors, but in straight terms of who the better team
    is its pretty obvious.  Chicago will not need LUCK to win it all they
    will just have to avoid bad luck, one Unlucky moment (jordan/pippen or
    even grant) going down and out could end there hopes for repeating.
    
    								MairB

    I knew Mike, just busting your ba- uh, catcus plants ... :-)

    I just heard on NPR that tonight's Blazer-Laker game in LA has also been 
    postponed.
    
    Mike

    Moved to Los Vegas...
    
    REK

    Suns-Blazers open tomorrow night in Portland.

    I think the key to this series will be rebounding.  I will go out on a limb
    and say that every game that Buck Williams has 10 or more rebounds, the
    Blazers will win.  We'll see tonight!
    
    Glen.
    

    Hopefully the Suns won't blow 20+ point leads in Portland like they did
    2 years ago.
    
    The key to this series is how soon Duckworth and Drexler get all riled
    up and lose it.  Once they've lost their tempers, they're history, and
    the Suns will cakewalk to the conference finals.
    
    Mike

Mike,

What's the latest injury report for the Suns? Is Majerle back?

Thanks,
TTom

    Last I heard, Thunder Dan, Hornacek, and Chambers are probable.  It's 
    assumed that everyone else is okay.
    
    Mike

    Suns should be able to take care of business at home.  Last night was
    pretty much a duplicate of Game 1, except the Suns came from 19 points
    down.
    
    Mike

    Incredible game 4. Double OT, Blazers win by 2. Portland kep missing
    foul shots late in the 4th and in OT to keep giving the Suns a chance.
    Phoenix just couldn't take advantage. Blazers lead 3-1, game 5 in
    Portland.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    TcM,
    
    Ya forgot to mention that *seven* players fouled out.
    Must have been due to the intense defense!
    
    ;^)
    
    Kev
    

    re: -1
    
    The Blazers shot 58% for all 6 periods, while Phoenix shot 46% for
    all 6.  Pretty darn good shooting!
    
    Glen.

>    The Blazers shot 58% for all 6 periods, while Phoenix shot 46% for
>    all 6.  Pretty darn good shooting!

 a point can be made for pretty lousy defense as well...I watched most of the
 game and I never saw so many open shots in my life and it had nothing to do
 with motion offense.  Hard to get into a motion offense when the guy who
 catches the first pass shoots.

 Is there a big crybaby in the league than Duckworth? I don't think so. Man
 if he had to make a living in the East, he'd been a CBA'er a long time ago.

 mike

    Speaking of lousy defense Mike, didn't the Blazers score 150 on Boston in 
    2 OT's this year...
    
    Correction, that's GONG! GONG! GONG! GONG!.  I'm afraid this series is 
    over.  Everyone knows the Blazers have the greatest athletes on their 
    roster sheet, now they are finally living up to it.  I can't see the Suns 
    winning game 5 and would be shocked if they did.  It's not impossible, but 
    I don't see it happening.
    
    As previously said, Duckworth and Porter iced the 153-151 2OT win. 
    Porter tried his best to choke it away, but the Suns played terrible.
    Thunder Dan missed a 3 pointer at the buzzer.
    
    Drexler led Portland with 33 points, although his scoring in the 2nd
    OT was limited to 2 free throws.  Porter finished with 31 points and 
    Ainge came off the bench to hit 25.  Kersey scored 21 points and 10 
    rebounds for the Blazers.
    
    KJ led Phoenix with 35 points and 14 assists.  He fouled out 11 seconds 
    into the second overtime.  Chambers had 29 off the bench, Hornacek had 23, 
    Majerle 21 and Ceballos had 19.
    
    Portland shot an unbelievable 77.3% from the floor in the 1st quarter when 
    Drexler made his first five shots and Porter his first four.  I think
    they missed something like 4 shots in the whole quarter!!  The Blazers 
    led 42-29 at the end of the period.
    
    Chambers sparked the Suns with 17 points in the 2nd quarter as the Suns 
    closed to 74-65 at halftime. Chambers made 7 of 8 in the first half and
    appeared to be playing angry after what transpired over the last couple
    days.
    
    Majerle led the Suns in the 3rd as they fought to take their 1st lead 
    since the opening minutes, 100-98, on a driving layup by KJ with 2:08 left 
    in the 3rd.  The Suns' largest lead was 125-118 with 2:34 remaining in 
    regulation time.  They should've closed it out there, but made some
    *VERY* stupid mistakes and played some terrible defense.  They came
    that close to making the series 2-2 and blew it.  They're probably
    kicking themselves today because of it.
    
    The Blazers outscored the Suns 9-2 in the final 2:34 to tie the score 
    127-127 and force the OT.  Porter tied the score, going for a layup, 
    drawing a foul and making the free throw with 33.6 seconds remaining. 
    I was suprised the refs didn't swallow their whistles like they did
    late in the Boston-Cleveland game.  Porter and Drexler stole the ball 
    from KJ with 22.7 seconds left.
    
    KJ had 9 points in the 1st OT, including a jump shot from the left of the 
    lane with 2.7 seconds left which deadlocked the score at 140 and sent the 
    game into the 2nd extra period.  He was among 6 players who were not 
    around for the finish because of fouls.  Others who fouled out were 
    Phoenix's Tim Perry, Andrew Lang and Chambers and Portland's Buck Williams 
    and Cliff Robinson.
    
    Portland shot a scorching 58.1% from the floor to 46.1% for Phoenix.  The 
    Blazers made 39 of 53 free throws, while Phoenix made 42 of 50.  The 
    Blazers overcame 18 turnovers that converted into 22 points. The Suns 
    had only 6 turnovers, a club playoff record.
    
    I have a suspicion now that Chambers is gone.  Especially after the
    last couple days.  The Suns desperately need an inside/low-post game
    and Charles Barkley sounds better all the time.
    
    Mike
    

    Just one favor to ask of these 2 teams. Please if you are going to play
    2OT could you start the game at say 8PM EDT??? :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    
    

    Yeah sure!  The traffic was bad enough because of the 6pm start here.  
    
    Mike

    re: .212
    
    Ok, how about a 6PM EDT start. We solve our late night problem, you
    folks solve your rush hour traffice jam. :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    

That's right Mike lousy defense by the Celtics but atleast they won... ;^)

I've never claimed that the Celtics' defense is the greatest in the East, just
better than the West's. 

>That's right Mike lousy defense by the Celtics but atleast they won... ;^)
    
    yeah Bird's 3-pointer went in and Majerle's didn't.

    Phoenix had there shot the other night, this series whould be
    tied up, there's no way Phoenix is going to take 3 in a row from
    portland.... Looks Like a Utah VS Portland Final's
    							M.Air.B

    It's tough to lose 3 games by a total of 11 points.  Hopefully, the Suns
    will play to win tonight and the Blazers play not to lose.

    One good thing about the new coach is that he's an ex-Celtic.

    Yeah ... that gar-run-tees that the Puns won't be in a NBA Final
    anytime soon !

    <------------ I'm with stupid

    Don't steal my p-name MIke !

    Peter Vecsey is saying the Suns are gonna send KJ, West, and Perry to
    Philly for Barkley.
    
    Here's hoping he's wrong, AGAIN!
    
    Mike

>    Isn't it kind of ironic that Sir Charles, who was constantly bashing
>    Philly and it's population about being racist is off to Arizona?
    
    Kev, I doubt it will be a problem since all the racists live in the
    rural areas.
    
    I love the trade!  Keeping KJ was a priority to me.  Hornacek (to me)
    was the most tradable of the Big 3 (KJ, Horny, Thunder Dan).  The
    thought of KJ feeding Charles on the break is thigh-shuddering.
    
    It would make sense know to move Thunder Dan into the 2 guard spot.
    Chambers will do time at center with West, as well as small forward.
    I'd rather have Thunder remain the 6th man and get a 2 guard via the
    draft or free agency.
    
    Horny will be missed and we wish him well.  Perry was coming along, but
    its too early to tell how much he'll improve.  Lang has peaked and was
    a throw in.
    
    Mike

>    Kev, I doubt it will be a problem since all the racists live in the
>    rural areas.
    
    ALL of them?  The city of Phoenix must be humane utopia.
    

    Re: -1
    
    Maricopa County, which contains the Phoenix metro area, already has a
    paid state MLK day.
    
    Mike

    NH doesn't...does that mean we're racist?
    
    Mark.

    AZ will make the national headlines with another vote this fall.  The
    city council is backpeddling and afraid to make a stance.  
    
    Tuesday night, they had to vote on a Gay Rights ordinance.  The council
    voted 5-4 to make it part of the fall election (ala the defeated MLK
    state day).  The result won't be hard to figure out...
    
    Mike

    I think another Phoenix deal is in the works.  A few teams are hot
    after Knight, Suns could use this to replace Horny.
    
Article 5269 of clari.sports.basketball:
Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!looking!clarinews
From: clarinews@clarinet.com
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Barkley traded to Suns
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 92 20:14:36 PDT

	PHILADELPHIA (UPI) -- The Philadelphia 76ers traded disgruntled All-
Star forward Charles Barkley to the Phoenix Suns Wednesday for guard
Jeff Hornacek, forward Tim Perry and center Andrew Lang.
	The announcement was made by former Sixers' head coach and recently
appointed General Manager Jim Lynam. Lynam said the trade was made to
add youth and athleticism to the team and to address the 76ers' critical
need at center.
	``To be able to add three reasonably young players who are starters
to your roster is a significant stroke,'' Lynam added. ``I think this is
a first step.''
	Barkley, 29, will be entering his ninth season in the NBA and is a
six-time All-Star selection. He led the 76ers 23.1 points a game last
season and 11.1 rebounds in 75 games.
	A member of the U.S. team that will compete in the Barcelona
Olympics, Barkley has fallen out of favor in recent years with his off-
court behavior and public criticism of Sixers teammates and management.
	``You hate to give up a guy like Barkley,'' new Sixers Coach Doug Moe
said. ``Unfortunately, it would have been difficult with this team
because of what's passed under the bridge. I still think Charles is a
great player but I don't think he could have been a great player here
any more given what's happened.''
	Barkley was named to the All-NBA first team four seasons and was
named to the second team for the third time this past season. He was
named the All-Star MVP in 1991 and led the league in rebounding
following the 1986-87 season.
	Barkley has often been critical of the 76ers' front-office,
particularly of owner Harold Katz. Barkley has said several times that
unless there are moves made to build a strong playoff contending team,
he would rather play somewhere else. The 76ers went 35-47 and missed the
playoffs this past season.
	Earlier Wednesday, a Milwaukee jury found Barkley not guilty of
misdemeanor battery and disorderly conduct stemming from a December
incident in which he punched a 26-year-old man and broke his nose.
	Barkley was accused of breaking the nose of James McCarthy, 26, on
Dec. 22 during an altercation at a bar following a 76ers loss to the
Bucks in Milwaukee.
	At the Milwaukee airport, Barkley took a final jab at Katz.
	``I think they're (76ers) very insensitive,'' he said. ``We're not
slaves where you just shop us around for the highest bidder. You don't
just say here is my stud and give us the best offer for it. It's their
business, but it's more than their business, it's my life. They don't
understand that. But now its over and I've got to move on.''
	Hornacek, who turned 29 last month, led the Suns with 20.1 points per
game and in steals. He added just over five assists a game and connected
on 43.9 percent of his 3-point attempts.
	Hornacek played in 81 of the 82 regular season games last year and
has missed just 24 games due to injury over his six-year career. This
will be just the second NBA team for Hornacek, who was taken in the
second round by Phoenix in the 1986 draft.
	``Hornacek is considered one of the best shooters in the league, who
can play shooting guard and point guard,'' Lynam said.
	Perry, 27, just completed his fourth season in Phoenix and has ties
to Philadelphia as he played at Temple. Perry has shown improvement
since being drafted as a lottery pick in the 1988 draft. The 6-9 forward
averaged a career-best 12.3 points and led the team in rebounding with
6.9 a game. He was also second on the team with 116 blocked shots.
	Perry never played in more than 36 games in his first three years
with the Suns, but missed just two games last season.
	Lang, who'll turn 26 on June 28, isn't much of a scorer, but is a
strong defensive player. He led the Suns last season with 201 blocked
shots and was second in rebounding with 6.7 a game.

    Oh well ... Philly is also the team that traded Wilt for three players,
    and screwed itself for nearly a decade ...

One thing that is great about this trade - gets Sir Charles to match up
with Karl Malone and Buck Williams more - yowza - don't get in their way!

JD

    Re: New Hampshire being racist due to no MLK day.......
    
    It doesn't mean you're racist.......just don't expect to host a
    SuperBowl any time soon!!!! :^)
    
    
    
    
    HTH,
    
    Nelly
    
    
    

    
    Iwas thinking the same thing, JD.  The KJ-Charles vs. Stockton-Malone
    matchups will be fun to watch!!
    
    I don't agree with Mike on the rural thing, look at Mesa, or Sun City,
    for example.  After moving from the Bay Area to here, there is a lot of
    racism here compared to most other areas (a lot of other -isms too). 
    The Gay Rights Bill is an example of how the local governemnt doesn't
    have the balls to do the right thing and just make a law, we don't
    live in a democracy, because the people are NOT always right.  I said
    the same thing about the MLK day.
    
    That all said, I think Charles will be GREAT for Phoenix.  He pulls no
    punches, and will hopefully slap some of the people upside their haids. 
    No more of those wimply players the Suns seem to gravitate towards.
    Hornacek was the right guy to deal, too.
    
    Brews, who might even like the Suns now

    Cotton's reaction, "I quit too soon!"
    
    Hornacek has left the impression that retirement isn't out of the
    question.  He likes this area, says he has plenty of money, and is
    leaving his options open.
    
    Mike

    A couple more moves are being heavily talked about now:
    
    - On July 1 at 12:05 AM, look for Cotton and Colangelo to make
      unrestricted free agent Danny Ainge an offer he can't refuse (ala the
      way they stole Chambers from Seattle).  This will fill the hole
      Hornacek leaves.
    
    - Pacers are still hot after Negele Knight and Colangelo already said
      Steve Burtt will be resigned.  Talk here is that they want Rik Smits
      from Indiana for him.  Heck, we'll throw in Ed Nealy ;-)
    
    If these deals come true, the Suns are looking at one TOUGH roster:
    
    Starters            Bench         Reserves
    --------            -----         --------
    Barkley             Mustaf        Rambis   {injury insurance}
    Chambers            Dumas         Ceballos {Dumas is tons better}
    Smits               West          {Smits has more size and offense}
    KJ                  Burtt
    Majerle             Ainge         {I still kind of prefer the idea of 
                                       Thunder Dan as the 6th man though.
                                       Ainge could just as easily start.}
    
    Post Draft Comments:
    -------------------
    Philly really showed some desperation to move Charles.  According to
    local press, the teams have been talking the last month or so.  Philly
    originally wanted Thunder Dan and Westy said, "Hell NO!" ;-)  Then of
    course they wanted KJ and received the same answer.  Meanwhile, the
    Sonics were making offers too and the thought of Kemp and Barkley on
    the same team made Westy nervous.  Phoenix put Horny on the table
    Monday morning and Philly pulled the trigger the next day.  This is one
    time the waiting game paid off.
    
    Westy on Thunder Dan and Sir Charles: "There isn't a tougher pair of
    players on any team in the NBA.  They will give teams a lot of problems
    this year."  I have to agree and I'm looking forward to the sight! ;-)
    
    Mike

    Suns drafted Razorback Oliver Miller at #22, Brian Davis (Duke) at #48
    and Ron Ellis (Louisiana Tech) at #49.  Suns usually do well in the 2nd
    round so we're not concerned with the last two.  
    
    Westy admits he's a gamble, but most scouts feel he'd be one of the top 
    5 players if he lost 30 or more pounds.  We can sign him up for Jenny
    Craig or Jake's Diet.  Supposedly Miller was one of those rare people 
    that came out and said he *WANTS* to play for a specific team before the 
    draft.  Phoenix was his team of choice, partly because Sir Charles is his 
    idol.  He's shown something by hiring his own nutrition and fitness coach 
    a couple months ago (presently weighs 305).  He told Westy in his 
    pre-draft interview that he'll do anything to make it in the NBA.  Westy 
    told us up front, if he doesn't lose the weight, we wasted a draft pick.  
    The Suns haven't had a great first rounder since Majerle so the odds are 
    with them on this one.
    
    Mike

    Rumor around here is that Ainge and Phoenix have a verbal committment.
    Not sure how they got around the cap though...
    
    Mike

Well it's official, Ainge is a Sun.  He was interviewed by the locals tonight.
He will be in town on Friday to ink the deal.  Portland matched the offer
today, but Ainge turned them down because they jerked him around.  He said
they made their last offer in October and ignored him the rest of the season.

Both Chambers and Barkley took deferred money to get the Suns enough money
under the cap to sign him.  Phoenix gave Ainge $5.2M for 3 years.

The Suns have also made an offer to Herb Williams of Dallas.  This will fill all
their openings. 

Anything less than a trip to the finals will be a monumental choke
job by Phoenix.   

JD

    > Anything less than a trip to the finals will be a monumental choke
    > job by Phoenix.
    
    While it certainly seems like they should get to the finals, I'd give
    them one year, just one, before I'd call it a "monumental choke job",
    in all fairness....
    
    Why cain't the Celts get players like Ainge?  :-)
    
    Hawk
    

    
    
    	What surprised me about the Ainge deal was mentioned on last nights
    dream team telecast.  Collins said that Barkley was really pleased/
    excited that Ainge would be part of the Suns.  I sort of figured
    Barkley as hating or disliking Ainge.
    
    	Give the Suns some credit.  They are making great moves to improve
    their team unlike certain other teams we all know and love...
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

    Re: Barkley - Ainge  Charles probably hated Ainge when they played
    against each other cause he's a pesky little nuisance who can cause
    trouble for you. But, he's the kind of guy you wouldn't mind having on
    your team... 
    
    

    Wonder what the signing of Ainge spells for Henry Williams, #2 draft
    pick out of UNCC.  Before this, I would have bet he'd be a starter by
    Christmas.  Now he'll either ride the bench or be traded.
    
    Portland also unloaded Ala Abdalnabe to Milwaukee.  He'll get some
    playing time there.
    
    	--dan'l

    Re: choke job
    
    The Suns still only have 1 center.  I'll be more confident if they sign
    Herb Williams.
    
    Colangelo once again has proven he'll pull the trigger to win a title. 
    He's pulled out all the stops since he's become the primary owner.
    
    Ainge (who is 33) and Barkley both said they have a healthy respect for 
    each other.  Nobody said if he'll start yet, but I'd like to see him
    start for the sake of Majerle remaining the 6th man.  That's a tough
    job and not many do it as well as Thunder Dan.
    
    Mike

       From everything I've heard a lot of people have a wrong impression
    of Barkley, who's supposedly a hell of a nice guy. Him and Kevin McHale
    are pretty good friends from what I hear. They regularly attend and
    participate in each others charity events.
                                    Denny

Henry Williams is on the Spurs.

Ken

    At one time wasn't Lady Di friends with Sir Charles?  or was he
    Prince Charles?????  I get so confused sometimes.......

    Charles is a class-act.  He always speaks the troof, whether people
    want to hear it or not.
    
    Mike

    ...and who cares about Lady Di? She's gone down hill since she left
    Cheers!
                                   Denny

    RE: Henry Williams
    
    Sorry.  Got my stories confused.  The Bucks shipped Dale Ellis to the
    Spurs, which still spells potential trouble for young Henry.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    > Charles is a class-act.  He always speaks the troof, whether people
    > want to hear it or not.
    
    All I can say to this is get your flame-retardant suit ready, Mike,
    because sooner or later Charles will probably speak some "troof"-isms
    that you don't want to hear.  What it is about some people that
    whatever they say is the truth, and about others that earns them heaps 
    of abuse for doing approximately the same thing?  Personality?  Charles
    has that, no doubt...
    
    glenn
    

    he'll behave because he's on a winner now.

    Sir Charles has bought a home in Paradise Valley and it is nearing
    completion.  He said moving is a pain, but hasn't felt this much
    anticipation for the season to start since his rookie year.
    
    America West Arena is 1,000 seats short of being a season sellout. 
    That's over 19,000 season tickets, folks!

    
    The Suns open with the Celtics on the sameday the Cards are home. 
    Wonder if the Suns will outdraw the Cards?
    
    Brews

  I just bought my tickets for Sunday's Celtics game here.  Look for the
  guy with huge lats at center court (half way up) accompanied by an 8 
  year old.  Will be my first time in the new arena.

  Mike

Mike,

What's the word on a couple of ex-Hornets? We're hearing that Captain
Kurt made the team and that Tim Kempton is battling Ed Nealy for the last
spot. Is that even close to what's happening?

Thanks,
TTom

    Naw, Rambo is an ex-Laker.  Kempton is probably a few molecules better
    than Nealy.  I think the one that has less guaranteed money will be let
    go or put on IR.
    
    Some of you might be interested in reading how Phoenix humiliated
    Detroit on Friday night... (from BOSTON_CELTICS notes).
    
    The Suns pounded the Pistons 147-105 on Friday night, and best the
    Bucks in Madison, Wis. last night to raise their preseason record to
    4-0.
    
    The Suns solved a few questions about their chemistry and toughness
    against the Pistons.  With 6 seconds to go in the first half, and
    Detroit down 65-53, the Pistons started to get physical due to their
    frustrations.  Polynice hooked Chambers and threw him to the floor
    while both were pursuing a rebound.  Chambers jumped up and connected
    with a jab to Olden's face as both benches cleared.  Olden only got off
    with a foul, while Chambers was ejected.  
    
    Suns' coach PAUL WESTPHAL, THE FORMER BOSTON CELTIC, told the team at
    halftime, "The only way you can respond that something like that is to
    kick somebody's butt by 40 or 50 points.  We don't let people play
    dirty in our building!"  Westy also said, "The officials only see it
    once, but I would hope he (Polynice) is suspended, because that was
    dirty."
    
    The Suns turned viscious in the 3rd quarter.  On Detroit's first
    possession, Chuck went looking for Polynice but found Laimbeer instead
    and sent him sprawling to the floor when he tried to set a pick.  Chuck
    said, "I tried to get Polynice a couple of times, but he got out of the
    way.  Polynice may play dirty, but he isn't a complete fool."  Laimbeer
    happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when Chuck wanted
    retribution.

    Meanwhile, the Suns continued to bang them with Chuck, Kurt Rambis and
    Mark West as Phoenix outscored them 42-30 in that quarter.  Phoenix led
    by as much as 46 at one point and upped the ante in the 4th by
    outscoring them 40-22.  As for Polynice and Woolridge, they were both 
    ejected in the 3rd quarter for mouthing off.
    
    The Suns were so relentless that the Pistons stopped trying to work the
    ball inside.  They only had 24 points in the paint for the game and
    Phoenix outrebounded them 55-27.  The Suns continued their unstoppable
    offense by shooting 54% from the floor (58% so far in 4 games) and shot
    60 free throws.
    
    As for scoring Barkley had 25, Ceballos 22, Chambers 12, Majerle
    17, Rambis 7, West 4, Ainge 3, KJ 14, Miller 13, Knight 8, Kempton 10,
    Martin 3, FJ 2, and Stivrins 7.  The Suns started Chuck, Rambo, West, 
    Ainge, and KJ.  Barkley points were all in the 1st and 3rd quarters, the 
    only quarters he played.  He's also scored 99 points in the 98 minutes 
    he's played thus far.  Barkley had 9 boards and 4 assists to lead
    Phoenix.
    
    Detroit's scoring went like this: Aguirre 16, Laimbeer 4, Polynice 12,
    Dumars 23, Thomas 10, Mills 4, Woolridge 12, Sellers 2, Walker 3,
    Oliver 6, Blanks 5, Morris 4, and Sanders 4.  Olden had 9 boards and
    Thomas had 10 assists to lead Detroit.

    The Suns' announcers (Cotton is the radio/TV color man now) mentioned 
    how 'classless' Detroit has become.  KJ was undercut a couple of times 
    by Joe Dumars.  Phoenix made sure they didn't get away with it though.
    Phoenix is reaping tons of benefits with Charles presence.
    
    The play of the night was a BIG O outlet pass to KJ, who in threw an 
    around the back pass, to Chuck for a twisting, hanging power dunk that
    put Phoenix up 93-73.  

    It looks like the starting line-up will be KJ, Ainge, Barkley, Chambers, 
    and West; with Thunder Dan staying at what he does best: 6th man.
    
    Mike

>    Naw, Rambo is an ex-Laker.  

And ex-Hornet, to be sure. 

TTom

>                         -< but they don't count ;-) >-

Well most of the time, they can. The usually have 5 people on the court,
about 7 on the bench, a couple of coaches, 23K+ fans at every game. Hail,
they count things a lot.

TTom

Who the Hell is chuck?


Or has Charles Barkley aka The Round Mound of Rebound aquired a new 
variation on his first name? 

Or are you two first name buddies now?


inquiring minds dean to wonk,

Metz

    There's only one Charles on the roster.  All the interviews with his
    teammates and coaches show them referring to him as Chuck.
    
    Mike

    You know, I've been thinking of renaming my copy of JETS.DIS to
    SUNS.DIS and starting a newsletter.  Anyone that doesn't want to
    receive it, send mail.  You'll be move to the top of the file ;-)
    
Article 5543 of clari.sports.basketball:
Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!looking!clarinews
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: NBA fines seven players
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 92 15:35:20 PST
Lines: 13

	NEW YORK (UPI) -- The NBA Tuesday fined seven players a total of $23,
500 for their roles during incidents at two exhibition games last week.
	Rod Thorn, the NBA vice president of operations, said Detroit center
Olden Polynice was fined $8,000 and Tom Chambers of the Phoenix Suns was
fined $3,500 for their fight during an Oct. 23 game.
	Polynice drew a $7,000 fine for initiating the fight while Chambers
was fined for throwing a punch in retaliation. Polynice drew an addition
$1,000 fine for failing to leave the bench area during the incident.
	Charles Barkley, Danny Ainge and Oliver Miller of Phoenix were fined
$500 each for leaving the bench.
	Shawn Kemp of Seattle was fined $8,000 and Scott Hastings of Denver
was penalized $2,500 for their part in a fight at an Oct. 22 exhibiton
game between the Sonics and Nuggets in Sioux Falls, S.D.

    Obviously done by reputation... haha..
    

Time to update everyone on what's going on with the best team in the West thus
far.  The Suns entered the season with KJ and Jerrod Mustaf on the IR and Dumas
on the suspended list.  Mustaf is due to come off after 4 more games, Dumas is
expected in December (Christmas present?).  KJ was originally expected to be out
2 weeks, but I have a feeling it may take longer.

In the season's first game, the Suns crisened the new arena by beating the
Clippers 111-105.  Since it was the inaugaration, they had to delay the game
with some pre-game ceremonies.  Jerry Colangelo honored 4 famous Suns of the
past: Connie Hawkins (only Sun in the NBA Hall Of Fame), Dick Van Arsdale,
Alvin Adams, and current coach Paul Westphal.  19,000+ attended, a sellout.  
The Suns unoriginally lifted the Bulls' introduction style (even the 
Alan Parsons Project music) for announcing their starting lineup.  The
starting lineup has been Knight, Majerle, Ceballos, Barkley, and West, with
Ainge, Miller, and Chambers coming off the bench.

Charles scored 37 points, grabbed 21 rebounds and had 8 assists in his debut.
He converted 11 of 16 shots from the field and 15 of 17 free throws. He also
had 12 offensive rebounds. Danny Ainge scored 15 of his 20 points in the 4th
quarter, Thunder Dan added 18 points and Chambers scored 15 off the bench for
the Suns.  Negele Knight hit just 2 of 17 shots from the field and finished
with 9 points for Phoenix.  Ron Harper led seven Clippers in double figures
with 17 points. Danny Manning and Ken Norman had 15 points apiece.

The Clips led 100-95 with 4 minutes left, but Thunder Dan scored 8 points to
spark a 10-0 run which put the Suns ahead 105-100 with 1:20 left.  Defense (YES
I SAID D-E-F-E-N-S-E!) and rebounding were the key.  The Clips were
prevented from scoring for almost 3 of the final 4 minutes!  Led by Barkley,
the Suns held a 61-46 rebounding advantage that overcame the Clippers' hotter
shooting. LA hit 43 of 81 (53.9%) from the floor while Phoenix sank only 34 of
89 (38.2%) field goals.

Some of the highlights of the game occured when the Big O, Barkley, Stanley
Roberts, and John "Hot Plate" Williams were all on the floor at the same time.
We're talking some serious POUNDAGE here but the new floor survived!  Suns also
led 55-50 at intermission.

Ken Norman was caught (apparently) violently elbowing Ainge in the chops.  It
appeared Danny incited this with a little jersey-pulling: gotta love him when
he's on your team!

The best thing of all is *how* the Suns won this game.  Before this season,
if the Suns didn't out-shoot their opponents, they were doomed.  This season,
however, they can win in other ways.  They won this game on second chance
points from Miller and Barkley and an inside game.  Barkley had one sequence
were he had 4 offensive rebounds *in a row* then finally kicked it out to
Ainge for a 3.  This was probably the best type of Suns win you could imagine
as a Suns fan.

Mark Jackson had a break away layup with Barkley following close and
taking a swipe at the ball.  Jackson makes it, Barkley gets the ball and
is ready to inbound it when Jackson gets in his face and whispers something.
I couldn't believe it.  Charles did absolutely nothing - completely kept
his composure and won the game.  I don't think Barkley is stupid enough
to get even in the same game during a critical point in the game, but watch
for a little friction between these two the next game with the Clips.
This was probably the reason Charles was celebrating so much when he dunked
and the Suns finally broke it open in the last minute.

Quotebook:
"You can't compare preseason to regular season.  Preseason is just a way to
screw fans out of money." - Charles

Trivia:
Barkley is so big in Japan now that NHK-TV was here broadcasting the game.

In the second game of this young season, the Blazers were very fortunate to
escape with a 100-89 win on their own court.  Who would've expected such a
    defensive struggle between the West's top 2 teams?!  There were 20 ties
    and at least a dozen lead changes in this game.

It was anyone's ball game with 4 minutes to play, but the Suns' shooters went
cold and Portland built up the lead while Phoenix misfired from 3 point land.
Mario Elie (nobody understands why Don Nelson let him go) scored 13 4th quarter
points and Rod Strickland added 10 in the period, helping the Blazers overcome
a the Suns.  The Blazers struggled most of night, and the Suns, who are
definitely missing KJ, hung right in there with them.  Strickland opened the
4th with a basket and 2 free throws to tie it at 71-71. Moments later, Elie
followed with a pair of layups that put the Blazers ahead for good at 77-71.
However, the game was still in doubt until Elie hit a 3-pointer with just
under 2 minutes left to put Portland ahead 94-86.  Elie finished with 17
points and Terry Porter aded 16 for the Blazers. Strickland had 12.

Sir Charles led the Suns with 21 points and 14 rebounds. Negele Knight, who
started in place of KJ, added 20 for Phoenix.  The Blazers ran its record to
2-0 with the victory while Phoenix dropped to 1-1.  The Blazers had their
running game clicking from the opening tip as they raced to a 10-2 lead.
But the Suns turned the momentum around with 8 straight points to tie the
game. Phoenix then successfully slowed the pace the rest of the night, which
worked against the Blazers.  Of course they didn't purposefully do this.  The
Suns' new faces are still getting used to playing with each other.  However,
the Suns were never able to take more than a 4-point lead in the 2nd half.
That came early in the 4th quarter when Tommy "Gun" Chambers canned a pair of
free throws to give Phoenix a 71-67 lead.

The encouraging thing is that the Suns played poorly and still had a chance to
win the game.  When this team learns to play together, it will be bad news for
the rest of the west.

Barkley was a monster on defense.  At one point in the 2nd, Drexler makes a
steal and is headed for a breakaway slam, when Charles comes out of nowhere to
block the ball out of his hands as he's going up.  Should make everyone's
highlight film!

Cliff Robinson said he wasn't going to let Charles come into the west and start
intimidating them, so he proved his manhood by running his mouth at Barkley most
of the game.  Charles is too smart to extract revenge in a crucial game.  Cliffy
better watch himself on his next trip to the valley!

In game 3 of this young season, your Phoenix Suns drilled the Jazz in the Delta
Center, 102-91.  The game wasn't as close as the score indicates.  Cedric "CC"
Ceballos shocked all fans by matching Sir Charles in points and boards.  CC had
24 points and 12 boards while Charles had 25 points and 13 boards.  CC scored 16
of his points in the 1st quarter to get the Purple Gang off and running.

Suns took a 59-49 lead into the half.  Everytime the Jazz made a run, Phoenix
would make one of their own.  Barkley pulled a Mailman by camping at the side
of the lane, waiting for the Jazz to double-team him with the ball, then
powering in towards the bucket.  I've watched Malone pull this crap so often
against the Suns in past years.  It's nice to have your own Dream Teamer for
this kind of dirty work.  Suns had a 19 point lead at one time in this quarter.

After 3, Suns led 80-69.  Suns had a 19 point lead here too, but the Jazz closed
the gap at the end.  Suns were sloppy at the start, giving up a lot of TOs and
offensive boards, but the Jazz couldn't hit their shots!  Mailman played
center for much of the quarter.  Supposedly this has been Sloan's most trusted
setup in crunch time, but I think it allowed Mark West or Barkley to gang up
on David Benoit.  The game kept going on in this manner until suddenly there
were less than 3 minutes left on the clock, and then I figured the Suns were
home-free.  It was a free-throw shooting contest from then on.

Credit Thunder Dan with the fine defensive stop on Jeff Malone.  He only had
about 9 points, but held Jeff to the same amount.  The Suns played defense
with much more spirit than I've seen all year, especially in the first half.
Westphal, for his part, seemed to know his personnel (putting Rambis in when
West got into foul trouble, thus sharing the defensive burden with Miller),
and kept the Suns in the lead on the road from wire to wire.  That speaks well
for his coaching abilities.

Rambis hit *3* 18-foot jumpers in limited PT.  Of course, he won't be a 
star until he learns how to hit his free throws.

Charles had another defensive gem with a block on the Mailman as he went in for
the dunk.  This guy's defense is vastly underrated!

Tommy Gun Chambers scored 28 points, pulled down 9 rebounds and handed out 5
assists Saturday night to help the Purple Gang to continue its mastery over
Minnesota with a 108-101 win over the Timberwolves in the Target Center.  The
two teams have met 13 times and Phoenix has won them all.

Charles Barkley added 20 points and 13 rebounds for the Suns. Doug West scored
23 points and Christian Laettner added 21 for Minnesota.

The score was tied, 88-88, before Chambers sank 2 free throws with 6:19 left
in the 4th quarter and the Suns stayed in front the rest of the way. The
Timberwolves pulled within 98-97, but Thunder Dan connected on a tres'.
Laettner hit a three-point play to pull Minnesota within 103-100 later in the
quarter, but Thunder clinched the victory by hitting 5 foul shots.

The best news of all: Barkley, despite his numbers, stunk up the joint and the
Suns still came from 17 points down at the half to beat the Woofies.  Charles
shot 8-24 from the floor in his 44 minutes.  The Suns have a coin that's awarded
to the worst performing player of each game.  Charles won it this time, but he
gladly accepted it.  "That's why I was so happy to come to this team.  In the
past, if I had a bad night, my team lost.  These guys can play.  I had a lousy
night and we won.  What a great feeling!"  Chambers saved his butt with an
awesome game.  Even Charles said, "Tom was awesome.  I'm just sorry I was
terrible."

Charles did make the defensive gem of the game though.  With 40 seconds left,
Suns up 101-97, Woofies' Laettner steamed toward what he thought was to be an
easy fast break layup.  Charles simply appeard over everybody to swat away the
shot at the last second.  It led to 2 Ainge free throws.  "I had one good play
in 44 minutes", said Charles.  Barkley also locked up former Auburn buddy,
Chuck Person, who only made 3 of 16 shots.

     Thanks so much for adding me to the Suns news letter distribution.
    i don't know how I'll ever repay you except to maybe add you to the
    new Broncos News Letter distribution.
    
    ;^)
    
    BG

    Ok Big Game, I can be bought.  Maybe we can work something out!

The undefeated Sonics came to the Purple Palace last night to take on the Suns.
Phoenix drilled them 117-108 as 6 Suns scored in double figures.  Suns take over
2nd place in the NBA's toughest division, only 1 game behind the Blazers.

Thunder Dan came out in the opening quarter leading the Suns charge.  The Suns
starters overwhelmed the Sonics defense with good shooting and lots of fouls
drawn (16 FT's in the opening quarter).  So much for the Sonics' vaunted
depth.  Majerle keyed the quarter for the Suns with 2 tres'.  Suns lead 40-30.

In the 2nd, both teams took turns at rollercoaster performances.  Phoenix
opened up a 17 point lead.  Sonics then cut it to 1, but Phoenix opened it up
again.  Frank Johnson had a great quarter at the point.  Rambo came in for
Charles, but didn't score.  Sun lead going into intermission 66-56.
McKey leads Seattle in scoring, and Barkley for the Suns.

In the 3rd, EJ and McMillan started in place of Benjamin and Pierce.  Coach 
Karl kept Kemp and McMillan in the game for extended periods despite 
each player's having 4 fouls.  Westphal juggled his lineup often trying 
to match up with the Sonics and to rest his players.  Phoenix maintains their
lead and are ahead 93-83 going into the 4th.

The 4th was a lot like the 3rd.  A lot of sparring, but no real runs by either
team.  Kemp started to wake up and scored about 17 points in the second half,
but it wasn't enough.  Alex Stivrins got his 1 minute, and Tim "Stoyko" Kempton 
saw his first minute of action with the Suns.  Chambers, McKey, and McMillan all
fouled out.

Barkley scored 28 points, 12 boards, and held Seattle's future superstar 
Shawn Kemp in check; this was the key matchup of the game, and Sir 
Charles won it.  Thunder Dan broke out of his slump for 24 points with defense, 
shooting, steals, and all that good stuff,  Chambers even collected 16 
points, many of them from inside and from the line (where he still can 
score).  Frank Johnson deserved kudos for his quality guard play in 
crunch time.  The vaunted Suns defense held the Sonics to miserable shooting
in the 4th quarter.  

Westphal appears to be using the players he has very well: it also helps 
that he has his old boss Cotton Fitzsimmons looking over his shoulder 
(from the GM office and the broadcast booth).  The coaching transition from
Cotton to Paul has succeeded so far.

The suprising Kings come to the Valley next on Wednesday.

Quotebook:

Charles said, "This is the first time since Bobby Jones retired that I'm on
a team with white teammates who can actually *PLAY*."

    Look Mike,
    
     Ifd you're gonna insist on sending this crap to me vis e-mail, why
    do ya got to print it in here as well....
    
    BG (who enjoys being on a news letter again)

The suns won because of some severe home cooking on the part of the CLEMSUCK
refs (tm). They made 16 trips to the charity strip in the first period
compared to the Sonics 1 (yes one).

And what the heck do the number of fouls have to due with the Sonics vaunted 
depth?

Looks like single team issue of Steve on Sports...


ho-Ho-ho...


Metz

    well a careful read will reveal that they aren't exactly alike. 
    Besides, not everyone in SPORTS is on SUNS.DIS (but we're working on
    it).
    
    I'm really amazed at how well its been received so far.  Some of the
    best quotes:
    
    "You've been practicing with he volume turned up too high, Mike.  I
    think it's seeped into your brain." - Sandy Bruso
    
    "Yawn .... 3 down, and you still need 30 more to catch the 71-72 Lakers.
    re. Quotebook, Utterly roolwaard ...." - Doc
    
    "I think you may have the wrong AL Millett on this distribution.  I'm a 
    die hard Celtic's fan!!!!!" - The other Al Millett
    
    "yawn.....who cares about professional field hockey..." - Mrs. JoJ
    
    "thanks for the update. Much appreciated." - Madge
    
    "Mike. Please take me off of your SUNS.DIS file." - Nebraska Marty
    
    "> Charles said, "This is the first time since Bobby Jones retired that
     >I'm on a team with white teammates who can actually *PLAY*."
    
       Only figures it'd be_a Dean/Carolina product!  
    
       Go Heels,
       - ACC Chris"
    
    "please delete me from the Suns.dis.  sorry, but I'm a Knicks fan and
    have no interest in NBA teams west of Penn." - Joe Garbarino
    
    "Cancel my subscription or I'll start sending you copies of Druids
    Illustrated!" - Laker Ken
    
    "Forget the Heat, the Suns rool!" - Kathy Petrie
    
    "Ex-Hornet, Tim "Stoyko" Kempton is AWESOME!" - Tom Haas
    
    Metz said something about home cookin'
    
    "This is great...  I think a bronco news letter sent out to guys 
     like Childs, Jake,JoJ_Not, Brews, etc...  would be well received, 
     don't you?" - Big Game
    
    "haaaaaaa...they're a hockey team, right?" - Mrs. JoJ again
    
    "I think I'd rather be on the Freakin Loonatic Dist! 8^)" - Conan
    
    Everyone else was so excited they want to move to Phoenix.
    
    BTW - Mustaf is working out again with the team and should be activated
    later this week.
    
    Mike

    
    Mike, ya forgot mine!
    
    " I remain......very close by the porcelan god after reading that junk!
    Makes me hurl and hurl and hurl (I prefer to be tossed-btw)" ;^)
    
    I remain,
    not fonda Peenix!
    Kev
    

    Mike, Kev can have my copy.

  Actually, I think what I said was

  "Any game where Frank Johnson looked good was played against wimps"

  hth
  Kath   ;^)

    Oh sure Kath, that's easy to say in a public forum.  

  ;^)

    Is Alvan Adams still playing?
    

    Alvin Adams was one of the chief architects of the Purple Palace.  He
    also has his number retired up in the rafters with Hawkins, Van
    Arsdale, and Westphal.
    
    Just wait until this team wins over 60 games and mounts the championship
    trophy in the new arena.  We'll see who's radiated then!

    
    re: .290
    
    If you're willing to wait a lifetime anything could happen (even a Red
    Sox World Series Championship :-)
    
    The Crazy Met

The new and improved Kings brought their act to the Purple Palace last night,
only to be trounced by the Suns, 127-111.  Phoenix led by 24 at one point in the
second half, and are now 3-0 at home.

The opening quarter was plagued by problems with the new scoreboard.  The
officials finally turned off the scoreboard clock and kept time themselves.
Both teams started out fairly active, driving to the hoop and hitting their
shots.  But in the last few minutes the Kings only had a three-man offense
(Williams, Richmond, Tisdale).  The Suns consistently scored from inside to
build a modest lead.  Chilcutt was whistled for a T after the Big O gave him an
in-your-face dunk.  Chilcutt responded by mouthing off with the Big O, must be a
Tar Heel.  Causwell and Williams were whistled for T's by hanging on those nice
new rims.  Suns lead 33-26.

The scoreboard woes continued in the 2nd as the AW Arena's manager was trying
to diagnose what was happening to his expensive technology.  Anyway, Chambers
made a couple of nice coast-to-coast swoops to the hoop.  Tommy Gun's
performance (almost all from inside) was the highlight of the quarter.
Thunder Dan and Ainge got the bulk of the Phoenix backcourt minutes, leaving
Knight and Frank Johnson on the bench.  Barkley didn't score much, but was
awesome on one play by stopping a 4-on-1 Kings fast break all by his 
lonesome.  I still say Charles' D is underestimated.  Suns lead at intermission,
62-52.  Despite only leading by 10, the Suns were toying with Sacramento.
They were constantly driving into the lane to get easy buckets.  

In the 3rd, they had the scoreboard fixed.  The Suns lulled the Kings into an
open-court game, and as you would expect, Cedric Ceballos thrived, getting 13
points.  West and CC Rider were monsters on the offensive boards.  Tisdale
bruised himself in the photographer's well and left the game for a bit.  Near
the 1-minute mark, both teams began sending in their scrubs: Anthony Bonner
and Vincent Askew for the Kings, Alex Stivrins for Phoenix.  Garbage time
beckoned as the lead bulged to 24 points.  Barkley was whistled for a T after
flagrantly fouling Causwell.  Suns still lead 97-75.  

The last quarter was pure garbage time.  Walt Williams and Alex Stivrins got
into it and both were ejected.  It was an easy win for the Suns.  Ceballos
led the way with 13 boards and 30 points.  Barkley only logged 26 minutes,
but got 8 boards.  Oliver Miller set a new career high scoring 19 pts.  Randy
Brown led the Kings with 18 pts.  Not that it would've mattered, but the
CBA-quality players on the King's bench failed them big time.  So much for the
new-look Kings.

Notebook:
---------
At one point Chambers, disgusted with the scoreboard glitches, sat with 
a fan in the 1st row during a break in the action.

Alexander Julian, superstar fashion designer who designed the Charlotte 
Hornets uniforms, provides Paul Westphal's wardrobe.  What other NBA 
teams have fashion consultants for their coaches?  Riley and Daly would 
seem to be obvious candidates.  Doug Moe?  Naaah...

Alex Stivrins was interviewed on the postgame radio show.  His story:

He was drafted by Seattle 6 years ago, played for them a bit, got an 
ankle injury, then spent 3 years in France, 2 in Italy, and never 
thought he'd play in the NBA again.  He stayed in his Phoenix home 
during the off-season.  Alex started as an athletic-type post player out
of college, but given free rein in Europe, he started hogging the ball 
and developed some perimeter shooting.  He said the Euro leagues were 
slower paced and less intense, with more of a finesse game.  Stivrins 
basically invited himself to Suns pre-season tryouts this season, and it 
has paid off so far with an NBA contract.  However, it definitely looks 
like he'll be cut loose when Mustaf and KJ come back.  Too bad.  I'd 
rather it be Stoyko Kempton.

Negele Knight entered the game as the Suns' assist leader, but he only 
averaged about 6 a game.  The NBA assist leader is Stockton, and he's at 
12.  Phoenix needs KJ back.  Barkley leads the Suns in scoring with 26 
pts/game.

Suns shuttle over to L.A. on Saturday night and return home Sunday to host the
Chicago Bumms.  Speaking of which, the Suns and Bumms are the only 2 NBA teams
that the Woofies haven't beaten since joining the NBA.

Jerrod Mustaf and KJ both practiced Tuesday and yesterday.  Both may be
activated for this weekend's games.  It was KJ first time touching the ball in 2
weeks.  The Suns will have to make 2 moves to activate them.

John Lucas was in town to conduct the league's substance abuse seminar.  He
wouldn't comment on Dumas though.  Dumas should be cleared for return this
month.

It looked like a Piston's practice, but it really was the Suns!  Tuesday's
practice took on the tones of early training camp in Flagstaff.  Rambo was at
the center of 2 physical and verbal confrontations, one with the Big O, one with
Stoyko Kempton.  The Big O even took a couple swings at Rambo.  Tommy Gun also
had a few words and pushes for Mustaf.  Charles sure has changed the character
and toughness of this team for the better!

Quotebook:
----------
"I feel great.  I'm hoping to play Saturday for sure.  I can't break out against
the Bulls without a warm-up game." - KJ

"I want to let him know that we love him, we're rooting for him and that he has
to keep working.  He kind of plateaued on us.  We don't want him to level out.
Sometimes he needs a little extra incentive." - Paul Westphal after spending
extra time with the Big O and running him through some exhaustive drills.

"I like it.  Just as long as we all walk off the court together." - Paul
Westphal on the confrontations in practice.

   >> Charles sure has changed the character and toughness of this 
   >> team for the better!

      Considering that the Suns were about as tough as you're average
      Brownie troop - this ain't saying a whole hell of alot. PeeWee
      Herman would have been an improvement.
    
    
    

>    Mike, I got your Suns newletter, but I'm confused.  Your first note
>    said "thanks for signing on".  Unless I was in a drunken stupor when
>    I did it, I didn't sign anything.
    
    Well, remember that day when you #$(*&%)@(#*)(*)_(#*($%*^&%*)%)_+_@#$#
    Man, I have to get a new modem!
    
>    Second, your report on the Sonics game you said "The Suns starters 
>    overwhelmed the Sonics defense with good shooting and lots of fouls
>    drawn (....).  So much for the Sonics' vaunted depth."  How the heck
>    does going to the line alot mean your opponents are lacking depth.  I
>    guess the connection was lost on me.
    
    Because the Sonics poor defense and foul difficulty forced them to sit
    some of the starters.  The subs were awful.
    
>    Anyway, keep those newletters coming.  I just pray the Sonics get the
>    chance to hand the Suns their traditional early exit in the playoffs
>    this year. 8^).  
    
    Your prayers won't be answered.  It's funny how Chambers still has his
    best games against Seattle while Eddie Johnson is MIA against Phoenix.
    
    Mike

>      Brownie troop - this ain't saying a whole hell of alot. PeeWee
>      Herman would have been an improvement.
    
    That's the unknown player that the Celtics just announced signing on
    the radio.  Joe Wolf wasn't tough enough.

    The world's best basketball player, and everyone's favorite Sun, will
    be on Arsenio tonight.
    
    Mike

    Shaquille and Garfield Heard with Barkley?  Great....

    
      Well as Carlos Griego put it, this was a game that separated the 
     wheat from the chaff, the men from the boys and the contenders from 
     the pretenders. Charles Barkley may have increased the toughness on 
     this team a hundredfold by his mere presence but he still has to teach
     most of them how to play defense. Last night Chicago gave them a splendid
     example of how to do just that.

    Don't worry Tommy, that's why they play 82 games.  Come April, all
    these new faces will be used to each other and the NBA will experience
    some serious hurtin.  The Suns still make a lot of mistakes because
    they aren't all used to each other yet.  Even the Bulls head scout,
    interviewed at halftime, said it is asking a lot of Phoenix to beat
    Chicago this early in the season given the length of time each team's
    nucleus has been together.
    
    Defense wasn't a problem, Chicago was just on last night.  Anytime guys
    like BJ Armstrong and Paxson shoot over 60% from 20'+, you know it's
    your night.  Bulls shot 67% as a team in the first half because they
    were hitting the long range shots they don't normally make.  Suns
    improved their shooting from the previous night, but they weren't as
    on as Chicago was.
    
    And Jordan is the most protected player in the NBA.  I used to think it
    was the Mailman, but not anymore.  Anytime you can clear out or
    straight arm your defender, and get the defender whistled for a foul,
    you have the refs in your back pocket.  Except he doesn't need the
    help.
    
    Mike

    
     I know, Mike. I just wanted you in here with that too-cool-for-
    school p-name. Even so, your boys ain't going all the way without
    the desire to play defense. It doesn't matter that they haven't 
    been together as a unit for very long. Some people enjoy playing 
    D and others don't. As individuals the Suns (with the exception of
    the quintessential Eastern Conference player, Barkley) just don't
    seem to have the heart for it. 

    Why doesn't shooting percentage ever have anything to do with the
    opponents defense?

    
   >> Why doesn't shooting percentage ever have anything to do with the
   >> opponents defense?
    
      We both know it does. Mikey probably does too but he doesn't want
      to admit that his boys know as much about Jean Paul Sartre's `Being
      And Nothingness' as they do about playing tough defense. Maybe with 
      Charles in charge they'll learn.

    But Tommy, how does that explain anlayses like, "they didn't play
    defense, we just didn't shoot well"?

>    But Tommy, how does that explain anlayses like, "they didn't play
>    defense, we just didn't shoot well"?


Selective reasoning?



btw, did anyone else see the Charles Barkley interview on Arsenio?
I thought Chuck had some cool things to say, and he said them well also....


'saw

Just when the Suns were showing signs of improvement, they go 0-2 over the
weekend.  They activated KJ for the Clippers game in L.A. and waived Rambo, but
still lost 111-107.  KJ saw 41 minutes of action, Barkley got 44 pts and 17
boards, but the team shot only 40% (bricking 21 of 28 3-point shots) and lost
to the chubby Clippers.  I was channel surfing between this game and the ASU-UA
football classic.  From what I saw of the Suns, their shooting was pathetic all
night.  They were getting good open shots, but not hitting them.

Last night, Chicago beat the Suns 128-111 in Phoenix, giving the Purple Gang
their first home loss.  Phil Jackson said B.J. Armstrong has done a great job 
"filling in," and he praised the Suns' new arena highly.  Either he's right on
Armstrong, or he's just lucky because the Suns gave him the open 20' shot and he
was burying them.

The 1st quarter was an incredible quarter for all basketball fans.  Michael
started the scoring with an outside jumper; both teams began trading baskets
soon after.  Chicago played nearly flawless basketball; ALL their outside
shooters were hitting.  76% shooting for the quarter, Jordan had *18* points.
The Suns had a pretty decent scoring half too, but their inability to defend
the Bulls' shooters put them behind.  Chambers came in first this night, as
West collected 2 early fouls.  Miller did the same for Barkley later.  Chambers
received a T from ref Hugh Evans after a reaching-in foul.  Barkley also
received one for slapping Williams after being held.  Williams was ejected for
saying "the magic words" to the ref.  Bulls up 43-35.

In the 2nd, Paxson and McCray started this quarter for the Bulls, and Chicago
kept pouring it on.  They got as much as a 16-point advantage before Phoenix
fought back to within 12.  Tempers were flaring between Miller and the Bulls
bench.  Barkley was mostly invisible this quarter after a good effort in the
1st.  King received a T for a flagrant foul on Miller.  Chicago basically blew
out the Suns early with 67% shooting overall.  Jordan alone had 28 points.
Unfortunately the Suns only have 1 Thunder Dan and he was guarding Pippen.
Phoenix was shooting 52%, which against an average team would be good enough
for a lead.  Bulls lead at intermission 74-62.

The 3rd was basically a push.  The Suns tried to score some quick hoops, and
the Bulls did start out cold, as the Suns climbed within 6.  A couple of
clutch Chicago steals, plus BJ Armstrong hitting some lucky shots, kept Phoenix
at bay.  The defense got tougher this quarter; Miller and Barkley had some
monster blocks.  The Bulls' Corey Williams got 1 minute of PT at the end.
West, Pippen, and Cartwright all had 4 fouls.  Bulls still lead 102-91.

The 4th was very disappointing.  Paxson, King, and Jordan all combined to beat
the Suns, along with the Suns' own unforced turnovers (throwing the ball away),
stupid technical fouls, and not crashing the boards.  In mid-quarter Westphal
replaced KJ with Alex Stivrins, essentially conceding the game.  Later he
inserted Kempton and Negele Knight.  Phil Jackson countered with the Will "the
Thrill" Perdue.  You get the idea.  About halfway thru Pippen was whistled for a
T, but I have no idea what for (wasn't obvious anyway).  Chambers was ejected
for arguing a charging call (2nd T).

Jordan led everybody with 40 points, while Thunder Dan held Pippen to 18.
Majerle also held Jordan scoreless the few times he guarded him while Pippen
wasn't in the game.  The rest of the Suns didn't hold serve.  Barkley had 22
points, Majerle 20, but they really didn't "school" the Bulls the way Jordan
schooled the Suns.  King, unlike previous years, got major minutes and made
his presence felt.  Oliver Miller, in his playing time, played reasonably well,
getting blocks and dunks when he could.

I don't think any team could have held off the Bulls in the 1st quarter; 
that's how good they were.  It was basically one stop-and-pop jumper after
another, and all of them went in.  Phoenix, with the loss of Hornacek, used to
have this kind of perimeter power, but now they have lost it.  Majerle and
Ainge have not produced (although they can hit a few three-pointers), Chambers
was a total loss, and Barkley's outside game has been ineffectual.  This is a
need that ought to be addressed.  I'd rather have to address the need for
outside shooting though than defense and rebounding, not to mention toughness.

Barkley scored points, pulled down some rebounds, but didn't seem like  
the kind of presence (on defense, inside) that you would expect. It's games
like this one (and the earlier loss against Portland) when Barkley needs to
show us his stuff -- not against the Minnesotas, etc.

The offense seemed not to have any flow or team-work going. KJ was about as
"in synch" with his teammates as someone in a pick-up game. There didn't seem
to be much of a system at work. The number of turnovers was incredible.  In
general, the defense was inconsistent, loose, and disorganized.  On the other
hand, the game was against the Bulls, not the Mavs.  The Suns still have a lot
of time to get their act together; perhaps it will be a totally different
story in May.

Oh well, I guess I can write this game off.  The next game with Chicago 
isn't until March, and it's anybody's guess what level the two teams 
will be at when they meet again.

Notebook:
---------
KJ called out a set play.  After 4 years of Cotton Fitszimmons's 
coaching, this is quite a strange occurrence.

    
  >> But Tommy, how does that explain anlayses like, "they didn't play
  >> defense, we just didn't shoot well"?
    
     It's called rationalizing.

    you turkeys.  It's more than obvious when people are missing wide-open
    shots vs. missing with a pair of hands in your face.

     >> -< watch the game >-
    
          I did and with the exception of Chaz and Marjle the Suns
         just ain't committed to playing defense.
         

    Funny, this afternoon's paper has Charles saying the same thing.  He
    said with the exception of Majerle, Frank Johnson, and himself, the
    rest of the team should go home and look themselves in the mirror.  He
    said if you want to play with the big dogs, don't come out playing like
    a puppy.  Mental toughness has to come from within, it can't be learned
    from the practice floor.  Charles added that too many people have been
    reading about how good the Suns are.
    
    I'm sure the Blazers will see a different team on Wednesday night than 
    what Chicago saw.
    
    Mike

    
    You hope the Blazers will see a different team. Where is the game,
    Portland or Phoenix?
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    It's in Phoenix this time.  The last was in Portland (2nd game of
    season).  
    
    Even Jordan said the Suns weren't in sync at all and that the Bulls put
    them on their heels (only KJ's second game back).  But Sir Air also
    added golden nugget: "Charles adds spice to everything.  He creates so
    much attention with his ability, that other guys are going to reap the
    benefit from it.  They didn't tonight, but in due time they will."
    
    Mike

    BTW - now I know why the Bumms lucked out against the Suns.  

	When KJ was on the IR to begin the season, Neagle Knight was starting
	and I thought he was playing pretty well...had a good scoring Avg
	and good assist avg...then when KJ came back his minutes went down
	to nothing, playing only 2-4 minutes a game.  Is he in the dog
	house for some reason?  I thought he did a good job replacing
	KJ while he was out.

	I guess with KJ out again, his minutes will go back up.

	Dave

    
    He was very inconsistent, especially in the big games.  If KJ goes down
    one more time this year, the Suns oughta dump him and find a PG who
    they can count on.  If they are going to compete, they need to knnow
    who is going to be there.

    Knight had a decent game last night, but as Brews said, he's
    inconsistent.
    
    Brews, you just don't dump the best point guard in the NBA.  I think he
    could use some extra conditioning work with their conditioning coach to
    make sure this crap doesn't happen.
    
    Mike

    Mike no one said anything about dumping Price... Stockton...
    
    REK

    We could trade KJ for Price or Stockton, but it wouldn't be smart for
    the Suns to take a step backward.

REK's right. Stockton and Price are much better point guards then KJ. KJ's
a better athlete but as a point guard he's not smart enough. Get him mad
and he ignores his fellow teammates much like Thomas in Detroit. I don't
know the figures for KJ but Detroit was less than .500 club when Thomas
scored 30 or more....

    
    
    >> Note 6.2477         
    >> -< you guys are rich >-
    
    >> Note 98.320                       
    >> -< you guys are a riot! >-
    
       I can hardly wait for the title of next note that Mike Heiser 
       writes while he's on this incredible burst of creativity.    
    

    We've had this debate before.  In comparing stats of the NBA's point
    guards, KJ always comes out on top with Hardaway a close second.  The
    rest that are supposedly better are further down the list.
    
    Mike

    Until KJ plays a whole season injury-free, the comparisons don't
    matter.
    
    Brews
    

    Well if you project that logic, you can throw out both Stockton and
    Price.  Price has missed more games than all 3 of them.
    
    Mike

Mike -

Hasn't Stockton led the lists for ASSISTS/STEALS/TURNOVER ratio for a few years running?

He may not score as much as KJ, and I don't know about rebounds, but Stockton is
a much better assist maker/passer etc....

As Mike Childs said, KJ is a better athlete than PRice or Stockton, but they are
better pure point guards.  KJ is closer to an in-prime Isiah than either of these.
I know you have a blind bias against Isiah, but he was an incredible ball player 
in his prime years.   KJ has, IMO, been inconsistent, helped with injuries, but
also helped with a tad of selfishness - something that you don't see in John
Stockton. 

Unfortunately, I can't find my NBA books inmy office right now.

JD

>Hasn't Stockton led the lists for ASSISTS/STEALS/TURNOVER ratio for a few years running?
    
    It's either him or Hardaway.  Of course KJ could do that if they played
    the slow down game like Utah.  Many of KJ's turnovers are a result of
    the high-impact running style of the Suns.
    
>As Mike Childs said, KJ is a better athlete than PRice or Stockton, but they are
>better pure point guards.  KJ is closer to an in-prime Isiah than either of these.
>I know you have a blind bias against Isiah, but he was an incredible ball player 
>in his prime years.   KJ has, IMO, been inconsistent, helped with injuries, but
>also helped with a tad of selfishness - something that you don't see in John
>Stockton. 
    
    I still don't agree that KJ is a lesser point guard.  While I don't
    care for some of what Isiah has done off the court, I never said he
    wasn't a talented point guard.
    
    And I still don't see where KJ is selfish.  KJ has always been a major
    option in the Suns' offense as well as the assist man.  If KJ is
    selfish so is Magic.  Both are major offensive options and take the
    shot when they are left open.  I don't believe Stockton is as big of an
    offensive option in their system as KJ is in his.  Stockton has the 2
    Malones to concentrate on the scoring.
    
    Re: books
    
    I have the complete stats for the last 3 seasons on line.  
    
    Mike

Mike -

KJ is no Magic.  Other than that, in selfish, perhaps its 'out of control'.

Hey, I like KJ.  I just think for pure point guard, I take Stockton.  

JD

    JD, I never said KJ = Magic.  I still don't buy the selfishness or out
    of control labels.
    
    If Stockton played the point for Phoenix, LA Lakers, or Warriors, he
    wouldn't lead the league in the assists/turnovers ratio.  He benefits
    from the Jazz Slowtime(tm) offense.
    
    Mike

    Suns currently lead the league in technical fouls.  Barkley, who led
    the NBA with 23 last year, already has 5 after 12 games.
    
    Thunder Dan's restaurant/nightclub near the arena, opens tonight. 
    Smart guy that he is, opened the place, has someone else run it, and
    will make a killing like he did off his line of clothing.  It's called
    "Majerle's."
    
    Mike

    -1
    About Thunder Dan. Well I think he'd be purty stupid if he didn't
    do it that way. Called common sense, not "Smarts". Hmmm.... must be
    his agent's idea.  8^)
    
    MikeL
    

Article 26248 of rec.sport.basketball.pro:
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Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Suns Report: November Report Card
Date: 3 Dec 92 23:15:39 MST

SUNS REPORT CARD FOR NOVEMBER

There are five sections to this report: offense, defense, coaching and 
organization, overall player grades, and an overall team grade.  Stats 
have been printed in the USA Today of December 1, so I won't rehash them 
here.  Thanks to Doug Steele for his posted rankings.

Grades on new players are optimistic due to my preference not to condemn 
players to stiffdom after one month of action.  As the season wears on, 
I will become a harsher grader.  All comments are mine, but yours are 
encouraged.

OFFENSE: A-

Phoenix is again among the leaders in point production, as it was during 
the Cotton years; every regular player on the roster (apart from West) 
is capable of a twenty-point night.  Outside shooting has been 
de-emphasized in favor of a punishing inside game and plenty of 
offensive rebounds.  The games get kind of ugly sometimes, but if you 
win, I guess it's OK.

Barkley's many offensive skills (jamming, outside shooting, passing) 
open up holes in an opponent's defense into which the other players can 
explode.  However, without KJ, no driving threat from the guard spot has 
really stepped forward (Barkley and Ceballos have taken that role).  The 
outside shooting has been disappointing, dragging the offense grade down 
from a solid A.

DEFENSE: B

Keyed by Majerle, the defense has been good enough to hold leads the 
offense has built.  It is badly susceptible to an outside shooting 
attack (e.g. GS and Chicago), but has held up well against physical-type 
offenses.  Phoenix runs well in transition after a defensive rebound.  
They are about average in shot-blocking and rebound differential.  Not a 
championship-caliber defense yet.  More height would be useful against 
the Shaqs and Admirals of the world.

COACHING AND ORGANIZATION: A

Westphal is doing well in his first month as the head coach.  The 
biggest worry for a "player's coach" like him is how much control of a 
team he should delegate to veterans and bold young players.  Westphal 
seems to be good on this.  He rallied the Suns effectively after a 
lackluster pair of games against the Clippers and Bulls.  Paul has also 
been a smart in-game coach, mixing personnel to meet the situations (cf. 
the late 4th quarter comeback against GS Saturday).

I'm not sure how the continued shadow of Cotton Fitzsimmons (he's a 
color commentator now, and obviously still has ins with Colangelo) will 
affect Westphal in the long term, but no bad signs have shown up yet.  
It's almost incestuous, the way Dick van Arsdale, Cotton, and Westphal 
shift titles and ranks.

The organization (mainly Jerry Colangelo and Cotton) has made great 
strides toward building a real team out of raw talent.  Eating the 
salaries of Nealy and Rambis shows good judgment (and preparation) for 
the future.  The Barkley acquisition was key: the KJ/Chambers nucleus 
that drove the team 4 years ago is falling apart now with KJ's injuries 
and TC's aging.  Ceballos and Knight were given the chance to play in 
the NBA and have proven their worth.  Frank Johnson has filled a gap in 
the Suns roster.  Miller has been a good draft pick.  I see no basis to 
criticize how this team was built.

INDIVIDUAL GRADES:

Danny Ainge: B+.  Has gotten good minutes as the 3rd guard.  Second on 
the team in three pointers, has run off a couple of decisive hot streaks 
in games.  Not great overall FG%, but is willing to play hard.

Charles Barkley: A.  Has been as advertised.  Leading scorer and 
rebounder, third on the team in blocks, and has been a positive 
influence on the young players, as far as I can see.  Enthusiastic and 
having fun: that's a good recipe.  Too many T's are his only fault.

Cedric Ceballos: A-.  Has had monster games, but punished with reduced 
time after some mistakes.  Still needs to score consistently, but when 
he's on, he has been a pivotal performer.  

Tom Chambers: B-.  At the beginning of the season he just plain sucked 
coming off the bench.  In the latter part of November he showed flashes 
of the old TC, scoring in the paint and passing well.  He has the 3rd 
highest scoring average on the team.

Frank Johnson: A.  Not playing much, but has earned respect as a result 
of becoming the default backup PG.  Smart player, doesn't make stupid 
turnovers.

Kevin Johnson: C.  Injured for much of the month, and injured at the end 
of the month.  Hasn't gotten into the flow of the game for Phoenix yet.  
Too many turnovers.

Tim Kempton: I.  Hasn't played much.

Negele Knight: C.  Still more potential than production.  Has picked up 
a weird rep of "starter's mentality" -- i.e., not able to play decent 
backup point guard to KJ.  Has shot poorly and been off-and-on in 
controlling the offense.

Dan Majerle: B+.  Not the prototypical starting off-guard.  2nd-highest 
scorer on the team, but FG% is horrible.  Makes up for it somewhat by 
his 40% 3FG%.  Steals, aggressiveness on both ends of the floor, and 
durability make him the 3rd most valuable Sun.  The coaches love him.

Oliver Miller: A-.  Based on his November, he can play in the NBA and 
play well.  I'm high on him: he's the best rookie Sun since Majerle.  
Has shown offensive prowess and defensive lapses that could be chalked 
up to rookie status.  His pathetic weight hasn't hindered his skills 
yet, but he could suffer by January.  There's still time.

Jerrod Mustaf: C.  Injured for part of the season.  Has started, but the 
coach hasn't given him many minutes.  Didn't look like much of a factor 
in the minutes he played.

Ed Nealy: F.  Now playing for Golden State.

Kurt Rambis: F.  Now playing for Sacramento.

Alex Stivrins: I.  Released and re-signed.  Didn't play many minutes.  
It is unclear what kind of contributor, if any, he can be.  12th-man 
spirit, reminds me of Mike Niles, the last guy on the bench of the 
1980-81 Pacific Division winning Suns (57-25).

Mark West: C+.  Basically the same player he's always been.  FGs and FT% 
is down, but tendency to foul isn't: a bad combination.  The leading 
shot blocker, but otherwise defensively unremarkable.  A little worse 
than Bill Cartwright, who won a championship.

OVERALL GRADE: A-

The team has performed to my expectations so far.  2 of their 4 losses 
were to NBA Championship finalists, and the other 2 were to talented 
teams on the road by a total of 7 points.  The problem of integrating 
Barkley into the flow of the team has worked out well, and the team has 
stayed focused; it beat Portland in a must-win game, and dismantled 
Seattle and Utah (fellow conference champ pretenders) impressively.

They don't have enough to beat Portland in a 7-game series, but that 
could change by May.  Phoenix should set this as a minimum goal.

    The last 4 Suns teams did a lot of talking about defense.  This team is
    playing it.  Turning games with defense is becoming a trademark of a
    Suns team that did just that last Friday night by clamping down on the
    Lakers at the end for a 103-93 victory.  The Suns held the Lakers to 4
    points over the last 3:15 of the game to break open what was a 90-89 
    lead to a 98-89 lead.
    
    The big plays
    -------------
    1. Long Range Ainge swiped a pass that was poorly handled by Sam
       Perkins and Sedale Threatt.  Ainge threw the outlet to Miller down
       court for the layup.
    2. Barkley gobbled up the rebound after a Perkins miss.
    3. Frank Johnson stole a Perkins pass.
    4. Barkley missed a shot as the 24-second clock went off, but Majerle
       grabbed the rebound.
    
    Suns have held their opponents to less than 50% shooting in 9 of their
    13 games and held the Lakers to 43.7%.  The Suns bench outscored the
    starters for the second game in a row (Miller - 16, Ainge - 15,
    Chambers - 15, FJ - 10).  The defense being played by Majerle, Ainge,
    Barkley, FJ, Miller, Chambers, and West is something Cotton only
    dreamed about.
    
    It is no longer fun to beat the Lakers. :-(
    
    This defense is what they need for their 5 road games this week too. 
    Suns started it off Sunday night in Milwaukee by trouncing the
    suprising Bucks 122-112.  Game wasn't that close since Phoenix led by
    18 for most of the second half.
    
    The Suns are in New Jersey tonight.
    
    Mike

    The Suns lucked out last night in New Jersey! ;^)
    
    Glen.

    As the CryBlazers say, "I'd rather be lucky than good!"

    I thought it was "I'd rather be good than smart"... (smiley goes here)
    

    It's funny how everyone talked about the "transition period" we were 
    supposed to see with a new coach and several new players.  It sure
    didn't take long since the Suns are the NBA's best after 16 games.
    It's hard to imagine considering that KJ's only played 2 games and that 
    4 of last years starters are not currently playing with the team.
    However, January's schedule is a nightmare with only 3 games at home.
    If they survive January in good shape, it's all down hill from there.  
    For Suns fans it looks great, considering they haven't even come close 
    to tapping all their potential.

    The latest trade rumor has Phoenix looking at Sean Elliot.  Suns have
    not gotten consistent play from the SF spot and Elliot would clear that 
    up in a hurry.  San Antonio needs help at the PG (Negele Knight) and 
    are interested in Dumas (Tark loves "problem children") or Ceballos 
    (or both) to "replace" Elliot.  Phoenix also has Philly's pick next 
    year, which could end up being rather high if Philly continues their 
    poor play (#2-4 range, even #1 with a little luck).  I'm not sure 
    Elliot's worth that type of pick, though.

    Finally, in the tradition of the spooky Lincoln/Kennedy coincidences, 
    here is a partial list of eerie coincidences between the 80's Lakers and 
    the 90's Suns:

   - Both are Pacific Division teams
   - Both have all-star point guards named Johnson
   - The 80's Lakers were coached by Pat Riley.  The 90's Suns are coached by 
     Paul Westphal.  Riley, a former player, played guard for several teams 
     during his career, including the Lakers.  Westphal, a former player, 
     played guard for several teams during his career, including the Suns.
     Riley and Westphal played together on the 1976 Phoenix Suns team that 
     went to the NBA Finals.
   - Before they were coached by Riley, the 80's Lakers were coached by Paul 
     Westhead.  The similarity of the name "Paul Westhead" to "Paul Westphal" 
     is just too bizarre.
   - The Lakers retired #44 for Jerry WEST, who played guard for the Lakers 
     and later became their General Manager.  The Suns retired #44 for Paul 
     WESTphal, who played guard for the Suns and later returned as an 
     Assistant Coach, and then Head Coach.
   - Both have General Managers named Jerry (Lakers - West, Suns - Colangelo).  
     Also, both teams have owners named Jerry (Lakers - Buss,  Suns - 
     Colangelo, who is part owner).
   - Both play in arenas with "West" in the name - the Great WESTern Forum, 
     and America WEST Arena.

     There's more, but you get the idea.  
    
    Mike

    Suns finish the road trip undefeated (5-0)! by sweeping Florida this
    weekend.  They will face the Bullets here on Tuesday night.
    
    The Suns were mostly in command for both games in Florida, but somehow
    managed to let them home teams back into the game.  Shaq may be
    awesome, but he sure can't shoot freethrows.  He had 2 chances inside
    of 10 seconds left to tie the game up and only hit 50% (2-4).  Suns
    squeeked by 108-107.  Chambers led the team with 27, Charles had 22.
    The Big O played Shaq just as well this time as he did against him in
    college.  Shaq finished with 20 and at least 12 boards.  Skiles had a
    great game (had as many points as assists).
    
    Suns then beat Miami tonight 122-118.  They let a 10 point lead slip
    away late, but hung on for the win.  Charles had 39, Majerle had 22.
    
    They're 14-4, best in the NBA, and 2 games up on the Blazers.
    
    Mike

Here are the Phoenix individual stats.  Amusingly enough, Charles Barkley has
more assists than anyone else on the team!  Not doing too badly from three
point range either.  I think he could have a future as a point guard :-).

j.

Team Player             PO GP MIN   FG  FGAT  FG%   FT  FTAT  FT%  OREB DREB REBT ASST  PF  STL   TO  BLKS PTS  3PTR 3PAT PPG 
---- ------------------ -- -- ---- ---- ---- ----- ---- ---- ----- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
PHO  Charles Barkley    F  18  709  158  312 0.506  121  161 0.752   72  165  237   88   47   17   68   18  455   18   57 25.3
PHO  Dan Majerle        G  18  685   96  236 0.407   58   74 0.784   44   54   98   59   43   30   25    8  278   28   82 15.4
PHO  Tom Chambers       F  18  424   84  187 0.449   75   85 0.882   18   51   69   33   52   12   25    3  249    6   11 13.8
PHO  Kevin Johnson      G   4  140   21   45 0.467   11   13 0.846    0    7    7   26    9    6   16    0   53    0    1 13.3
PHO  Danny Ainge        G  18  487   76  154 0.494   41   46 0.891    9   35   44   53   44   16   27    1  225   32   72 12.5
PHO  Cedric Ceballos    F  18  355   87  160 0.544   37   55 0.673   36   47   83   16   22    8   25    5  211    0    0 11.7
PHO  Negele Knight      G  17  408   57  145 0.393   39   51 0.765   14   15   29   70   35   14   37    2  153    0    2  9.0
PHO  Oliver Miller      C  18  353   51   93 0.548   37   57 0.649   24   70   94   38   52   10   32   30  139    0    2  7.7
PHO  Mark West          C  18  311   39   61 0.639   12   33 0.364   27   49   76    7   60    5   21   20   90    0    0  5.0
PHO  Frank Johnson      G  16  277   42   77 0.545   15   20 0.750   11   17   28   43   32   22   18    1  100    1    4  6.3
PHO  Jerrod Mustaf      F   8   88   14   40 0.350   14   19 0.737    6    9   15    1   10    2    3    4   42    0    0  5.3
PHO  Alex Stivrins      F   6   28    8   14 0.571    0    0 0.000    1    5    6    1    5    1    4    1   16    0    1  2.7
PHO  Kurt Rambis >SAC   F   5   41    4    7 0.571    1    2 0.500    2    4    6    1    3    3    6    0    9    0    0  1.8
PHO  Tim Kempton        C   5   14    2    3 0.667    0    2 0.000    0    1    1    1    2    1    3    0    4    0    0  0.8
                                                                                                                              

      The bulls game could be (maybe) a peliminary to the finals this year,
    make that next calender year...
    
    	Tim

    >> It sure didn't take long since the Suns are the NBA's best after 
    >> 16 games.

       Talk to me in June. 20 games into the season is just a little early
       to start celebrating and crowning yourselves `the Lakers of the 90's'.

    
    especially when one team already has two rings from the '90's.
    
    The Suns are precluded from getting one of the top 3 picks, if I
    remember correctly.  
    
    Brews

    vs. Orlando
    -----------
    - Chambers had 26 points
    - Ainge had 5 points during the 13-1 4th quarter run.  Only had 6 prior
      to that.  He started the run with a 3-pointer which took the Suns
      from a 101-94 deficit with 4:23 remaining to a 107-102 advantage with
      1:17 left. 
    - Suns held Orlando without a field goal over the next 3:17 while they 
      made their run.
    
    "I felt like we were fighting uphill all game," Coach Matt Guokas said. 
    "When we finally got some momentum and built that 7-point lead, we missed 
    a layup on an inbounds pass. That took a little starch out of us."
    
    Given the choice of allowing Shaq a lay-in that would tie the game in 
    the final seconds or putting the 7-foot-1 rookie on the line, the 
    Suns fouled him.  That was the right choice.  O'Neal missed 2 free 
    throws in the final moments, including one with 1.1 seconds left that 
    would have forced OT.  
    
    "The worst Shaq could do is make them both and tie the game," said
    Coach Westphal, after O'Neil was fouled in the paint with 1.1 seconds 
    left and the Magic trailing 108-106. "If you don't foul him, he's going 
    to go to the basket. I thought our strategy worked pretty good."  O'Neal 
    hit the first, but missed the second and the Suns controlled the rebound.
    "That's an awful lot of pressure to put on a 20-year-old," said the
    Sir Charles, who finished with 18 points and 11 rebounds.  "That's just a 
    tough situation to put Shaq in, especially when you've got Scott Skiles, 
    (Dennis) Scott and Nick Anderson. Obviously, teams are going to foul him 
    in that situation."
    

    vs. Miami
    ---------
    Charles scored 39 points Saturday night to lead the red-hot Suns to a 
    122-118 victory over the Miami Heat, completing a 5-0 road trip.
    Long Range Ainge added 23 points for the Suns, who are 11-0 against Miami
    since the Heat entered the league in 1988.  The Suns, which have the best
    record in the league at 14-4, has won 7 straight games, the longest
    current streak in the NBA.
     
    **Phoenix, which has won 9 of its last 10, also improved to 6-1 against the 
     Almighty Eastern Conference.**
    
    Seikaly had 25 points to lead the struggling Heat.  Miami has lost 11 of 
    its last 13 to fall to 5-13.

So Mike, what 6 teams have they beat.  I know its the Heat, and the Hornets,
and the Magic.   Who else?


JD

    Heat, Hornets (2), Magic, Nets, Milwaukee.  Granted it isn't the cream
    of the crop, but a lot of good, up and coming, young teams.

The Suns buried the Bullets last night, 125-110, to win their 8th in a row.
Phoenix is now 15-4 and looking down on the whole league.  The Suns also set a
franchise record in the game by shooting 10-13 from 3-point land.  Charles was
3-3, Thunder 3-4, and Long Range 4-6.  Barkley had 36 points and 6 boards,
Ceballos 13, Thunder 19 points and 9 assists, and Long Range added 23 points.
Gugliotta led Washington with 27, Grant had 22.  Now the game...

1st Q: Washington's starters hit 5 of their first 6 field goals to grab an
early lead.  Knight left with 2 quick fouls.  Michael Adams was hyper-
aggressive, rushing the ball up and down the court and going for steals.  The
Bullets outplayed the Suns in the first 6 minutes, and built a lead as high as
10 points.  Then Phoenix stormed back to take their first lead at 21-20, with
about 3 minutes to play, by going on a 17-5 run.  Long Range Ainge, FJ, and
Thunder Dan played together as a 3-guard rotation for the last part of the
quarter, and they sparked Barkley and West forward.  Thunder Dan hit 2 killer
threes to help bury the Bullets.  He and Barkley scored 10 each; Harvey Grant
scored 11 for Washington.  28-25 Suns.  

2nd Q: Doug Overton, LaBradford Smith, and Don MacLean all checked in this
quarter.  This was a bad idea for Unseld, for Phoenix scored 8 straight points.
Washington also committed all sorts of dumb fouls before Gugs and Ellison re-
entered the game to stanch the blood.  It worked a little, as Smith got a
couple of 3-point plays to get the Bullets back into the game.  Long Range
Ainge and Thunder Dan played a great backcourt to keep the Suns ahead.
Barkley, for his part, shot well from inside and outside.  Knight was in foul
trouble with 3. 59-49 Suns.  Phoenix basically overwhelmed Washington with
their talent, building a 10-pt lead without a lot of excitement.  Barkley
scorched Gugs for 23 points and 9 rebounds in the half.  Grant had 19 points.

3rd Q: Both teams began the quarter with all their starters.  Again the Suns
shot well to start the quarter.  Barkley, while being fouled, made an
incredible shot; the ball bounced off the front of the rim and just crawled
in (too bad he didn't convert on the three-point play; he ain't the greatest
foul shooter).  Barkley hit a 3-pointer too (more on this strange phenomenon
later).  To get back into the game, Unseld tried a back-court trap, but it
didn't work and he soon junked it.  Ceballos blew past the Bullets defense for
a nice lay-in.  It was all-around ugly, if you happened to be a Bullets fan.
Near the end, though, Overton and Gugs combined to bring the Bullets within
striking distance.  89-78 Suns.  

4th Q: The Bullets did NOT fold in this quarter, coming out strong.  Gugliotta
seemed to be everywhere: his shooting and offensive movement was just super.
A Gugs 3-ptr brought Washington within 7, so Westphal put Thunder Dan and
Barkley in to try and put them away.  Long Range Ainge hit his 3rd 3-pointer
of the night to tie the Suns all-time record for supershots made in a game (9).
He broke the franchise record by shooting #10 with about 4 minutes left in the
game.  This keyed a 10-0 run that iced it.  Overall, a solid win for the Suns.
Phoenix didn't have a gigantic hot streak: Washington was playing too well to
let the game get out of hand.  We've seen what Barkley does for a team, but
particularly amazing tonight was the 3-point shooting.  At last, a threat from
outside!

With Knight's poor play, Long Range Ainge is basically getting starter's
minutes.  His defense is decent and his shooting touch tonight was as good as
it's ever been.  Westphal keeps putting him in the middle of the 1st quarter
and the 4th, and Long Range Ainge keeps doing well in that role.  He ended up
with 23 points, 15 in the 4th quarter.  It was his 2nd straight 23-pt game.
Barkley was co-player of the game with Long Range Ainge.  In the Barkley-Gugs 
matchup, Sir Charles abused the rookie and his backups.  The stats tell 
the story.

As for the Bullets, well, it just wasn't their night.  Harvey Grant scored 22,
but was invisible: sorta like what his brother would be if Pippen and Jordan
were MIA.  Rex Chapman stinks.  Smith was the only decent bench player.  Gugs
is for real (27 pts), but MacLean (18 pts mostly in garbage time) isn't.  This
team needs more talent.  They're basically where the Kings are at now.

Notebook:
---------
Oliver Miller joined KJ on the injured list last night and didn't even suit up.
According to Westphal, Oliver is suffering from a stress reaction (strain on
his stress fracture location) that dates back to his college days.  It's not
that painful, but Westphal wanted to be very cautious and not aggravate it
further.  He'll be out for 2 weeks.  Probably because of his weight. For the
time being Westphal's center depth chart will be West, Chambers, Kempton,
Mustaf.

The NBA finally gave Richard Dumas clearance to play, and the Suns now have the
room to activate him.  He'll be in uniform for Friday's game in L.A. against the
Lakers.  He could very well be the answer to the Suns' inconsistentcies at the
3 position.  As Cotton and Westphal both said, "He's 6'7" and can do it all.
Score, rebound, and play defense."

Tom Chambers needs only 6 points to reach 18,000 for his career.

The Suns tied their season high with 32 assists last night, but they were
outrebounded 37-32.  Only the 6th time this season they've been outrebounded.

In pregame news, Charles Barkley was named Player of the Week by the 
NBA, and he was fined $5,000 at the same time, for "derogatory comments 
about the officiating" in the New Jersey game a week ago.

After starting off the season missing his first 12 3-pt FGs, Sir Charles is now
shooting 43% from that range.

Phoenix has won 13 of 15 games in which Negele Knight has started.  If you've
seen the boxscores, you know it ain't due to him.  As we all know, correlation
does not imply causation.  No way KJ should be traded for Sean Elliott.  Sean is
great, but this is too much to pay for him.

Brent and Mark Price once lived in the Phoenix area for a short while, 
when their dad was an assistant coach for the Suns.

If you're in Phoenix this Monday, the Suns will have an America West 
Arena practice open to the public.  Admission is a can of food (to 
benefit a local food bank).  My family and I will be there.

Quotebook:
----------
"Getting Charles was stupid!  Trade him!" - Wes Unseld

"They shouldn't be shooting them if they can't make them all!" - Charles on
Thunder's and Long Range's 3-point shooting.

"You know Whataburger has to pay money ($50) to charity every time we make a
3-pointer.  I talked to the district manager, and he told me they're going to go
broke.  So I told our guys to quit shooting the 3's, but I guess Majerle has a
deal with McDonalds and he's trying to put Whataburger out of business." - Coach
Paul Westphal

"Whoever we put Charles on (defensively) seemed to go crazy.  We put him on
Grant in the first half and Gugliotta in the second half.  If he doesn't start
playing defense, I may have to put him on the bench.  I'm not going to say
Gugliotta is another Larry Bird (referring to Pat Riley who made that
comparison).  Charles just made him look like Bird in the second half." -
Coach Paul Westphal

"I only score and rebound.  They're going to have to pay me $2 million more to
play defense." - Charles rebuttal to Coach Westphal

"This ain't about money.  I stand by what I said then.  They (the officials)
were bad that night.  I said it then.  I say it now.  You can't control me with
money.  Mathis is just a bad official, and he's hurting our team.  I feel Rod
Thorn has to have some courage and go after him." - Charles on his fine

When Cotton asked Barkley to donate the fine to a charity of Cotton's choice,
Charles replied, "Oh no, you might go buy some more of those sweaters."
Fitzsimmons was wearing one of his wildly colored numbers.

This is my last Suns post for a while.  Barkley bashers, may dreams of 
Sir Charles dance in your heads!  Don't forget to catch the TNT game 
next Tuesday!  Happy holidays!

Mike

    Ok, Dumas is on the roster.  What did he do last night.  Will have he
    have an impact or will he be Cedric Ceballos' caddy?
     

    Suns don't play again until tonight.  My bet is that Ceballos will be
    on the losing end.  Dumas is just too talented.  He was a projected
    lottery pick in college.
    
    Ceballos and Knight trade rumors are still going strong.
    
    Mike

I can't believe the Suns would trade or otherwise get rid of Ceballos
and/or Knight. Please have them contact the Hornets before making any
hasty decisions.

I agree that Dumas is a keeper, though.

TTom

    Well they're trying to cure the inconsistencies at the 3 position. 
    Pre-Dumas' activation, the rumor was Ceballos & Knight for Sean
    Elliott.  Cotton & Van Arsdale admitted that they were talking to the
    Spurs.
    
    If Dumas fills the void, maybe we can offer those 2 to Philly to get
    Hornacek back ;-)
    
    Mike

Speaking of Philly, it looks like Perry has stopped his development since
his exit from Sunland. Or at least, so says Peter Vescey in USA Today.

TTom

    He's right too.  His minutes are down, but so is his production.  

    Why is there all this talk about trading Knight?  I think that if
    Phoenix was to trade anyone it should be KJ.  The Suns have proved they
    don't need him, winning 9 in a row so far without him.  He also seems
    to be injury prone.  Why not trade him to Sacremento?  I'm sure he
    would love to go there since that's where he's from and he does so much
    work in that community anyway.
    
    Glen.

Mike H. must be on vacation.

The Crazy Met

    
    I'll fill in then...  Dumas looks awesome.
    
    I apologize to those of you who were hoping for something longer.
    8^)
    
    Brews

Brews,

The length of .359 is perfect.

The Crazy Met

    Anyone who thinks Phoenix doesn't need KJ should start seeking therapy.

Mike, were you on vacation? Still on vacation, but just checking in??

The Crazy Met

    Yeah I'm using my vacation to catch up.  Will be officially back in 2
    weeks.

How much vacation do you get???

The Crazy Met

    As much as I want ;-)  I was almost max'd out at 8 weeks, and I needed
    a break from school/work...

      Maxed out?  Thats what I call dedication on the verge of crazy;^)
    
      Tim

    
    Let's all just be thankful Mike took the vacation while the Suns were
    doing well.  8^)
    
    Should I continue filling in with the abbreviated Heiser-hype?
    
    Brews

    
  >> Let's all just be thankful Mike took the vacation while the Suns were
  >> doing well.  8^)
    
     Think we weren't ?
    
  >> Should I continue filling in with the abbreviated Heiser-hype?
    
     Yes, but give a really authentic feel by gushing more, mentioning 
     "Sir Charles" and giving the impression that this team is a lock 
     and the playoffs are just a formality.

    Keep it up Brews,
    
    MikeyH=War and Peace
    Brews= Cliff notes
    
    
    8^),
    MikeL
    

    
    The Suns won lasted nte.  KJ done good.
    
    Heiser_not

    
    Mike probably has important meetings today, so here's Heiser_not's
    report.
    
    Suns tried to prove they could win it all like the Lakers, and did a
    Laker impression.  Problem is they were copying the 85-86 Laker team. 
    Had a 5 point lead with 40 seconds, 2 point lead and the ball with 4.2
    seconds, and lost in overtime.
    
    Sorry this one is overly long, but I'm sure none of you mind.  8^)
    
    
    Heiser_not
    

Yeah Isaw the game on TNT. My thoughts after the steal and jam with
.4 seconds left was Suns are emulating the Oilers.

The Crazy Met

    yeah that Suns gave #15 away.  Thanks for "filling in" Brews.  Next
    time, get a real job.
    
    I'm sure all of you will be just thrilled to know that only 2 other
    teams have gone 14-0 in December (Lakers and Celtics).  Both of them
    won the NBA championship the same season as their streak.  
    
    Mike

    
    Due to an outpouring of requests, I will continue to fill in for Mike:
    
    The Suns are whining, er protesting their loss to SA.  Some wimpy
    excuse like SA had 6 guys on the court.
    
    The world's ugliest guitar player, Joe Satriani was on Leno last night.  
    
    Sorry, no droood update.
    
    8^)
    
    Heiser_not

    Here are the undefeated months as supplied by the NBA to the Phoenix
    Gazette (minimum 10 games - December is the month for champions):
    
    Lakers,  16-0, December 1971 (part of The Streak which was 33)
    Celtics, 15-0, December 1959
    Suns,    14-0, December 1992
    
    Lakers,  14-0, November 1971 (also part of The Streak)
    Bullets, 13-0, November 1948
    Lakers,  12-0, November 1972
    
    Bucks,   13-0, March 1981
    
    I know the Celtics won 18 in a row back in the '81-'82 season (was
    listed in the paper with all the longest streaks) but I guess it didn't
    take more than a month.
    
    Speaking of the latest streak, there's a chance it isn't over yet.  The
    Suns front office filed a protest on the Spurs game with the league
    office.  The officials were pretty bad all night (they seem bad
    everywhere in general this year) but they blew 1 play that cost the
    Suns the game.
    
    Scenario: With .4 seconds showing on the clock in regulation, Avery 
    Johnson is inbounding the ball as the Spurs try to break the tie.  He
    lobs it in to David Robinson who misses the final shot.  Problem?  San
    Antonio clearly has *6* men on the court.  League rules state that
    Phoenix should be awarded a Technical free throw which may break the
    tie and give them #15.
    
    I remember Barkley holding up 6 fingers and yelling at the ref at the
    end of regulation.  The crew blew it on this one.  The league rarely
    overrules the officials, but hopefully they will this time.
    
    Mike

>    The world's ugliest guitar player, Joe Satriani was on Leno last night.  
    
    who cares what he looks like?!  There isn't a person, dead or alive,
    that can match him in musical skill and knowledge.

I saw the play with .4 seconds left. The ref had not given the ball to 
the Sun player who was going to inbound the ball. Therefore, there was
no call on the 6th Spur player. FWIW the NBAalmost never overrules a ref
on a protest. Streak is 99.99% over - don't hold your breath.

Didn't Houston have an undefeated month 2 years ago???


Anyone have the dates for the Knicks 17 game win streak druing the 1969-70
season??  It was at the beginning of  the season and I thought it covered
all of November.

The Crazy Met

    re. 375
    
    Youse guys never appreciated what you once had
    
    Heiser_not.last

    
    	I didn't see the play but I wonder how the league can over rule
    a play like that?  Since to my knowledge, I'm the only real ref in
    here, I can state that it is a mistake yes, but one that cannot be
    over ruled.  If they did overturn the call, would they replay that
    part of the game?  Would they give one team a win just because it
    'could have' changed the outcome?  Sure, the Suns should have been
    given the T and the shot, but they could have also missed the shot
    just as easily as they might have made it.
    
    	Secondly, it's easy, especially in a tight game with a lot of 
    substitutions to miss a 6th man.  That's no excuse cause someone is
    responsible for counting the home team on the court and someone is
    responsible for counting the visitors as well BEFORE the ball is put
    into play.  Problem is, with that violation, it is never penalized
    until it is recognized and then a player could slip off the court
    unnoticed to the officials.
    
    	Technically, it should have never happened, but in the wonderful
    world of the WWF/NBA I've seen worse!  And with .4 on the clock given
    it was the WWF/NBA, this is a pretty moot point.  Of course, if you're
    a fan of Phoenix, it's unthinkable!
    
    	bill..g.
    

    
   >> Speaking of the latest streak, there's a chance it isn't over yet.  
   >> The Suns front office filed a protest on the Spurs game with the 
   >> league office. The officials were pretty bad all night (they seem 
   >> bad everywhere in general this year) but they blew 1 play that cost 
   >> the Suns the game.
    
      Are you serious ? Do you really expect the NBA to overturn a game 
      because of a bad call ? Wake up and smell Juan Valdez' armpits, Pal. 
      It ain't gonna happen. Cindy Crawford will leave Richard Gere for Lou
      Holtz before that happens. Charles Barkley will quit basketball to
      pursue a career as a Shakespearen actor before that happens. Bob
      Cousy will say, "She sell seashells by the seashore" five times 
      really really fast and not screw up before that happens. In short,
      IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. 
         
    

    -1,
    Cindy Crawford, judging by her recent commercials, better align herself
    with whomever has the most staying power (economically that is) whether
    it be Richard Gere or Lou Holtz.
    
    

    According to the NBA rule book, the ball becomes live when:
    
    1) It is tossed by an official on any jump ball
    2) It is at the disposal of the offensive player for a throw-in
    3) It is placed at the disposal of a free-throw shooter
    
    The tape shows that the ball was in Avery Johnson's hand, and he held
    it above his head ready to inbound it (rule 2).  The Spurs had 5 guys
    on the floor, plus Johnson inbounding.  This calls for a T on the Spurs
    coach who is responsible for having 5 guys on the floor.  If the
    officials don't notice it, it is the responsibility of the short-handed
    team to notify an official.  The tape clearly shows Majerle yelling at
    official Joe Forte "They've got 6!  They've got 6!"  Forte stopped the
    inbound play and allowed the Spurs to take a man off the court.  TV
    coverage also showed Barkley holding up 6 fingers in protest.
    
    In a December 22nd game here against the Warriors, Golden St. received
    a Technical foul for having 6 men on the floor during an inbound play.
    
    The protest costs the team $1,500 and is not reimburseable.  Colangelo
    said, "We believe the official blew (Forte) blew the rule.  He had more
    than ample time to let them get set, they were ready to go and they
    handed Avery Johnson the ball."
    
    Rod Thorn said there has been only 2 protests awarded in recent years
    where the game was replayed from the officials error.  One was a few
    years ago between the Lakers and Spurs.  There was also one between the
    Bulls and Hawks.
    
    Mike

        Its just 1 game.  They have alot left to play......

    
    re: .382
    
>    coach who is responsible for having 5 guys on the floor.  If the
>    officials don't notice it, it is the responsibility of the short-handed
>    team to notify an official.  The tape clearly shows Majerle yelling at
>    official Joe Forte "They've got 6!  They've got 6!"  Forte stopped the
>    inbound play and allowed the Spurs to take a man off the court.  TV
>    coverage also showed Barkley holding up 6 fingers in protest.
    
    If the above is accurate in the sense of how the NBA conducts itself,
    then they are indeed in my opinion much worse off than I first
    believed!  
    
    First of all, it is the officials responsibility to count the players
    period.  Now, maybe the NBA wants to change that to allow the short
    handed team to call the violation and if that is the case, why not just
    do away with the officials all together and let the players call their
    own fouls!
    
    Actually, if the account given by Mike is accurate, then the ref really
    did the right thing in taking back the ball from the inbounding player
    to avoid the violation.  Once the ball becomes alive does not mean the
    ball cannot be make dead.  Technically, the ball is alive once at the
    disposal of the inbounding player, but the clock has not started.  Now,
    I can give you a similar circumstance:
    
    	The foul shooter is given the ball for the first of two tries. 
    Once the ball is given to the shooter, the ball is alive.  As the ref
    backs away from the shooter, he notices that the shooters toe is on the
    foul line.  (true story here.  came from a Big East game involving 
    Syracuse and G'town at the dome.)  Coach from Team A sees the violation
    and goes balistic telling the ref.  Ref sees the violation waiting to
    happen (not a violation until he shoots the ball) and since it was his
    fault that he did not look at the shooters feet before giving him the
    ball decides to whistle the play dead before the shot is released.  
    Ref whistles the play dead, takes the ball back from the shooter and
    tells the ball boy to come and wipe up a wet spot in front of the 
    foul line.  When that is done, he then checks the feet, gives the
    player the ball while telling him to watch his feet, and everything
    is hunky-dorey.  Except that the coach is still upset.  But hey, it
    was the refs duty/job to make sure that the shooters feet were behind
    the line before the shot.  Now if that were the case and the guy was
    a dummy and decided to move his feet after the fact, then we would
    have a violation.
    
    Now, getting back to Phoenix, the refs clearly blew the count, gave
    the ball to the inbounding player, then realized that there were 6 men
    on the court.  With .4 or whatever under a second, what ref would end
    a game with a Technical for to many men on the court?  Acutally, as
    I said, that was a good piece of officiating to stop the play and get 
    the extra guy off the court.
    
    Hey, if they/we went strictly by the book on every play, the game would
    be pretty boring.  This is also what seperates good and bad officials.
    I guarantee you that crew would have more to answer for (in the NBA)
    for making a ticky-tacky call like that with under a second to play
    seeing that they let players get mugged the whole game while ignoring
    those plays.  I should say that if the ball had been inbounded, and
    the Spurs still had 6 guys on the court, then they would have had no
    chance but to bang the Spurs with a T.
    
    
    bill..g.
    

    
    
    KJ injured his hammy again.  what a bum...
    
    Brerws

Brews,

Thanks for the concise description. 

The Crazy Met

                  
    oWell, TCC<, Even though Heiser_true has returned, and temporarily
    retired Heiser_not, he is still a part of me.
    
    Brews, having  trouble still with the new editor

    Bill_g,
    
    Ya know, I didn';t realize how much I missed your "officiating
    contests" until that last reply!
    
    Wanna ressurect those little darlin's again?
    
    I remain,
    a guy who  remembers you used to call yerself "goose"
    Kev
    
    

    Goose, in case you ever grab an NBA rule book, the rules violated were
    Rule No. 6, Section II and Case No. 280.
    
    Long Range Ainge said last night that Lee Jones (another ref on the
    crew) had just counted 2, for the 5-second inbound violation, when
    Forte stopped play and allowed the Spurs to take a man off.  If the
    ball wasn't live, why was Jones counting off?
    
    Suns won what should have been their 16th in a row last night by
    beating Houston 106-104.  Thursday night is the final stop in the Texas
    Triangle.  Suns had a 20 point lead in the first half, KJ went to the
    lockers to ice down his left hamstring, and the Rockets cut the lead to
    5 at intermission.  It was nip and tuck the whole second half.  Barkley
    iced the win with a block on Kenny Smith's attempted layup.
    
    On to the lighter news...
    
    Paul Westphal won coach of the month and Barkley player of the month.
    
    Mike

    
    
    	re: Mike
    
    	Never said the ball wasn't alive.  What I was trying to do was
    draw a contrast to the two situations.  In both cases, the ball is
    technically alive.  In the case I gave you, even though the ball was
    alive, the official felt that since it was his error, and to PREVENT
    the violation, he would whistle the play dead and correct HIS mistake.
    Note, in these situations the clock is not running and per definition,
    these are not 'correctable errors' of which there are only 5 types.
    
    	The same PRINCIPLE applies here and now even moreso since you added
    that it was an off-official that stopped the inbound play.  The
    inbounding ref could of jumped the gun and gave the ball to the Spurs
    player without totally checking out the court.  Quite possibly, one of
    the other two officials might not have been ready, maybe not.  Anyway,
    even though the inbound count had started doesn't mean anything and
    seeing that he only go to '2' it means even less.  
    
    	The point is that with less than a second to go, it is not in my
    opinion 'good' to end a game with a technical for to many men on the court 
    when it is your (the refs) fault to begin with!  No if, ands, or buts 
    about it, to many men on the court is a referee problem period.  Of course 
    that is unless some fool jumps off the bench and onto the court while play 
    is in progress.  But here, the refs made a mistake.  Before the ball was
    thrown in, and while it was still at the disposal of the inbounding 
    player, they corrected the situation.  It is not good for the refs to
    decide the outcome of the game and that's exactly what they would have
    done if they went ahead and banged the Spurs for the T.
    
    	I can site many other situations that while the ball is alive and the
    clock is not running that it is considered 'o.k.' to correct a
    situation that if not corrected would lead directly to a violation.
    
    
    	Bottom line is that the Suns had ample opportunity to win the game
    and they didn't.  Now, once again, a loss is blamed on the officials!
    I guess things will never change.  When you loose, you gotta blame
    someone, and the easiest is the officials.
    
    
    bill..g. aka, goose
    

	This same situation occured in a high school game I attended last night.
The ref grabbed the ball from the inbounding player until the 6th man left
the court.

	Jim M.

    
    That's what you get for trying to play when you had no business being
    there, Jim.
    
    Brews

    Even though the protest seems not to be based on rule interpretation
    but on black-and-white rules, it would take rare courage from the NBA
    office to uphold it.  Who cares if the loss could eventually have a
    bearing on final regular season standings, playoff seedings and, more
    importantly, home-court edge in an NBA championship series vs. Chicago?
    It matters not.  The game is just one of 82, so there's no need to
    publicly embarrass officials who don't know the rules.
    
    Kudos to TNT analyst Hubie Brown for asking the officials about the
    call.  Funny how they told Hubie they didn't present the ball to Avery
    Johnson yet.  The video tape must be an illusion.
    
    Mike

    
    Even though I believe the game should stand as it is, I thought I'd
    point out something nobody has thought of:  It is NOT the officials
    responsibility to ensure that only 5 are on the court, but to enforce
    it.  It IS the coaches responsibility.  If anyone is to blame, it is
    the coach of the Spurs.
    
    Marc
    

    
    
>    point out something nobody has thought of:  It is NOT the officials
>    responsibility to ensure that only 5 are on the court, but to enforce
>    it.  It IS the coaches responsibility.  If anyone is to blame, it is
>    the coach of the Spurs.
    
    
    This is not a bad point and basically this is where the 'officiating'
    comes into the picture.  The officials know that each team can only
    play with 5 or less.  So, if they notice that there are 6 on the court,
    do they put the ball in play and then penalize for to many on the court
    or do they exercise some judgement and tell the coach or captain that
    you have to many on the court.
    
    Again it comes down to situations like the coaches box.  Should the
    officials bang the coach every time he ventures one foot beyond the
    boundary, or would a word of caution spoken to the coach about honoring
    the boundary be better served?
    
    Some things in officiating aren't as cut and dry as they appear.
    
    bill..g.
    

    > Again it comes down to situations like the coaches box.  Should the
    > officials bang the coach every time he ventures one foot beyond the
    > boundary, or would a word of caution spoken to the coach about
    > honoring the boundary be better served?
    
    Depends if your name is Pete Pavia (may he R.I.P.) and you want to go 
    out in a blaze of glory by humiliating one of the games giants in the 
    Final4 on national TV, ... or any of the other 99.9% of officials who do 
    not enforce the coaches box.
    
    BTW, poor officiating judgement was clearly shown in the 'Bama > Miami
    tilt when the ref flagged Lassic for spinning the ball in the end zone. 
    The kid had just been denied a TD because of a nasty face mask, the
    game's for the national Title, and he throws his yellow hanky cause the
    letter of the law had been violated (even though it's violated all the
    time and not called).  I thought Gene Stallings was gonna go Code Blue
    on the sidelines.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    I already pointed out in an earlier reply that it was the coaches
    responsibility to field a team of 5.  Coach John Lucas blew it for the
    Spurs.
    
    The press reports that Rod Thorn will have a ruling within 10 days.  If
    the Suns win the protest, the final .4 seconds of regulation will be
    replayed on February 23rd when Phoenix visits the Alamo City again.  It
    will start off with Phoenix getting to shoot the Technical foul.
    
    Mike

Deanho was pressing his luck the whole game Chris, he's lucky he lasted that
long. He should been bounced 2 night before against Central Michigan when he had
the nerve to run out on the court and personally point out to the refs which
one of the CM nuke widebody studs was pushing his po po little Tarheels around.
He knew he had already had  T on him and a second meant he would be tossed and
not only did he step out of the box he was riding Pete about the time. Only
Zealots like yourself think it was a bad call........

mike

    
    
>    The press reports that Rod Thorn will have a ruling within 10 days.  If
>    the Suns win the protest, the final .4 seconds of regulation will be
>    replayed on February 23rd when Phoenix visits the Alamo City again.  It
>    will start off with Phoenix getting to shoot the Technical foul.
    
    
    	If this happens, it will open the flood gates.  It will also put
    the NBA strictly in the class of the WWF.  And if you folks thought the
    officiating in the NBA was bad now, just wait.  With a decision to 
    overturn, I doubt that you will find many refs willing to put up with
    crap like this which only means the more talented refs will spurn the
    NBA.
    
    	bill..g.
    

In related news Hubie Brown wasn't impressed by the recent 14 game win streak.
Sites the Bulls as the team to beat. Points to the thrashing the Bulls gave
the Suns in Phoenix. I think Mike and Tommy might remember the game... ;^)

Says the Suns may win the West and they are loaded but while the Western style
of ball may fill arena and put points on the boards, it's still Eastern Style
defense thay wins championships. He say while Chicago maybe struggling a bit
to play up to the last two years they have proven that when they have to get
it together they can like Christmas day against the Knicks.....

mike

East Conference champion will probably be decided by the regular season.
Chicago, Cleveland, Knicks have to be the favorites to win the conference.
I would guess that the team with the best conference record will most likely
win the conference.

Now back to the Suns

The Crazy Met