Conference 7.286::sports_91

    Let's discuss that putative pre-1973 biz lag that never really
    existed.  Turns out that even the ownerships of the ALmost League
    have come to admit that the Designated Geek was a mistake, a
    unfortunate outcome of a mass freak-out induced by coke snorting
    young television producers.  So, now that even the owners admit
    that ALmost ball is boring what're all the misdirected youngsters
    outta ALmost towns who grew up accustomed to the spectacle of fat
    washed-up 38 year olds waddling up to the plate gonna have to say
    now that real baseball is slated to return to their parks?
    
    MrT

    >Let's discuss that putative pre-1973 biz lag that never really
    >existed.
    
    You are wrong.  It not only existed but is discussed in nearly every
    baseball reference book which discusses the instituation of the DH.
    
    Despite the commish being on record as not wanting the DH, I am aware
    of no slated return of the pre-DH rules.
    
    Dan

    I've heard this "DH to be Abolished" talk as a_abslute fack in various
    conferences, but nowhere else. IS this actually going to happen? I
    would think that teams would be very unlikely to sign a 35 year old to
    a 3 year contract if they know he can't DH the last year.
    
    I know what you mean about some people not knowing the difference from
    pre-DH baseball. A guy was dressed as Lou Gherig in an old style Yankee 
    uniform at a haloween party. He had an old glove, but not really old
    enough. A woman asked him why he even had the glove, since "wasn't Lou
    Gherig a DH?"
     

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SPORTSTICKER BASEBALL NOTE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The general manager of W-J-R Radio admitted in a copyright
in today's Detroit News that he wanted long-time Detroit Tigers 
broadcaster Ernie Harwell fired.

Tigers President Bo Schembechler had been taking most of the
blame for Harwell's firing.  The 72-year-old Harwell announced
last month that he had been told in October that 1991 would 
be his last season broadcsating Tigers games.

W-J-R General Manager Jim Long told the Detroit News that he
made the decision not to retain Harwell and was coming 
forward at this time because he felt that Schembechler was
receiving undo criticism because of the move.  Long said
that he did not want Harwell returning for the 1991 season,
but relented on Schembechler's insistance.

Long told the newspaper he wanted Harwell fired after last
season because he was unhappy with Harwell's on-air performance.

Harwell, who has been doing the radio call for Tiger games the
last 31 seasons, will return for a final campaign this year.
Schembechler drew the ire of Detroit fans when it was announced
that Harwell would receive only a one-year contract extension
on his five-year pact and then let go.  Paul Carey, who has
worked with Harwell the last 17 years, announced that he
would retire after the 1991 season.

    How much did Bo pay Long to take the heat????
    
    JaKe
    

    I thought I also read that Bill Lojie (sp?), long time GM of the Tigers
    resigned.  It sounds like Bo is exerting some athority.
    
    I haven't heard Ernie Harwell in years - to those who have, has he
    "lost it"?
    
    =Bob=

    No, he hasn't lost it at all, that's the shame of it all....
    
    

    Rocket Roger was arrested early Saturday morning for jumping and
    choking a cop, while the cop was arresting Rog's brother.  I like the
    name of the place - Bayou Mamas Swamp Bar.

    You gotta like Roger's version of the story, though.  He said he
    tapped the cop on the shoulder, put his arm around him and tried to
    talk him out of arresting his brother!  hahahahaha!
    
    					Steve

    
    Rog's story may not be too far fetched. This kind of thing happened
    to a friend of mine. One of his buddies was getting a bit out of
    line and our gracious men in blue decided to casually escort the
    individual out of the bar with his fist. My friend put his hand
    on the cops shoulder to tell him to lighten up and got jumped and
    mauled by another cop, who in turn proceeded to try and kick my
    friends ass. But instead of willingly accepting random punches to
    his cranium he held off the thug er I mean cop and got busted for
    assault on a police officer. He was cleared. Cops over-reacted.
    They do that alot. 
    
    
    
    Steve
    

 Notice how he waited until the cops back was to him naturally I'd expect
 no less from his 'highness'.....

 mike

 Dig, I agree with you I've seen it happen it may not be far fetched but
 then again neither were any of Irving's storys....

 hahaha  ;^)

 mike

    There were also off duty.  I thought the police became "normal" people
    once off duty.

>    There were also off duty.  I thought the police became "normal" people
>    once off duty.


I have a lot of friends who are cops.  They're never "normal" when they're
off duty.

It's been my experience that you end up with two kind of people. The
first kind are the kind with something to prove, and who hide their
inadequacies behind the badge.  The second kind feel a great need to
help people, and are usually pretty level headed.

Who knows what kind the Clemens boys ran into.  Roger can lose his
temper pretty quick, but you could have had Joe Super Cop...

Just another tale in the saga of Rocket Roger...

'Saw

    'Saw, what I meant by my comment about "normal" people was that Clemens
    is being charged with assaulting a police officer.  The cop was off
    duty - why isn't it simple assault charges?

    My impression was that the "off-duty cop" was working a second job
    as the bouncer at Bayou Mama's.  So the cop was even less "normal"
    than "normal" off-duty cops.  Bouncers apparently have some legal
    rights/protections that patrons don't have.
    
    In any event, should be an interesting trial.  Meanwhile, we all
    know that Roger is "innocent" 'til then, don't we?  :-) :-)
    
    A&W

Mac --

Oh, I see.  Um, I think that in some locations, a cop is a cop whether on
duty or off.  When I was a municipal employee (my first programming job)
I know that the town I worked for required their officers to carry a firearm
at all times within the town limits.  If an officer lived in town, they
were considered "on duty" 24 hours a day.

Also, there's a State Trooper on the Wanderers (in fact, if you know the
Wanderers I'll bet you can guess who) and I think he's on "24 hour" duty.


That is a very interesting thing, though, that if they were officially
Off-duty, how could it be assaulting a police officer.  If that's the
case, then how come they don't have a law for assaulting a software
engineer...  hmmm......

'Saw

    
    > then how come they don't have a law for assaulting a software
engineer..
    
    'Cuz software engineers are "24 hour" fair game.
    
    Dickstah
    

    Cops are used as doorman/bouncers at many clubs.  They are always
    in uniform and put in a highly visible place.  The message is don't
    start trouble because the cops are already here.  I've worked with cops
    at a nightclub and believe me they enjoy a good scuffle every once in
    a while.  They overreact, have bad days just like anyone else.  One
    thing that is in Roger's favor is that if I was the cop breaking up the
    fight and someone touched me from behind that person is going to jail
    too.  When cops and bouncers are breaking up anything its been my
    experience that its jail first and questions later, anyone even
    remotely involved is thrown out of the club and anyone who pissed the
    cops off is definitely going to be giving up their belt and shoelaces
    for the evening.  Personally I could care less whether he was involved
    or not, the charge will get reduced, he'll speak to twenty high
    schools, sign a huge contract and then rack up some more wins.  
    
    Jimbo 

Of course, Jimbo, at Fleming's you don't need bouncers...You've
got the Wanderers ;^)

You make some good points.  Most of the cops that I know have a 
hair trigger when it comes to stuff like that.  And I'll bet
you're right about Roger.  Now all we have to do is see if
that Baseball Commission (or whatever it's called) will vote to
keep Roger out of the HoF, like they're doing to Pete Rose.

'Saw

PS  Fleming's may be changing it's name to "Paulie O's" fairly soon....

    Lorenzo Highsmith.. Pro running back with Houston ? was at the bar and
    saw the whole mess.   He sides with Roger all the way. He states that
    the Roger's version is what really happen...
    
    

    Ask Dee Brown if cops can overreact.
    
    I'm with the wait and see bunch.  Hendricks (Clemens' agent) claims he
    has a slew of witnesses that collaborate Roger's side of the story. 
    The bouncers/cops have their story.  It will get sorted out.
    
    What's scary is that we have here a basically minor, isolated incident. 
    As was the case with Irving Fryar and Hart Lee Dykes, a guy can't even
    go into a bar for a couple of drinks anymore without people questioning
    their sanity and morals.

    I've seen a cop press assault charges because a ill, hysterical woman
    pushed him. The cop went about 6-1 and 200 lbs, the girl was 5-7 and
    130.
    
    I wouldn't be suprised if Rog is exonerated. But could you see what the
    media would do if this had been Oil Can Boyd, Jim Rice, or Fryar ?

>    I wouldn't be suprised if Rog is exonerated. But could you see what the
>    media would do if this had been Oil Can Boyd, Jim Rice, or Fryar ?


Probably the same thing the media would have done had it been Billy Martin,
right?

'Saw

    Anyone read the Gammons piece, in the Globe, this morning?   You think
    most of the umps are on a major ego high?
    

    >Anyone read the Gammons piece, in the Globe, this morning?   You think
    >most of the umps are on a major ego high?
    
    I was away and missed the Gammons piece.  Can you summerize it for me? 
    I read what Gammons had to say about the umpires a few months ago, and
    he sounded like Chicken Little to me.
    
    Dan

    
    The Yanks-O's exhibition games at Joe Robbie stadium drew 67,000 and
    57,000 fans in the two games they played lasted weekend.  Wow.
    
    Did they give away free tickets?  Free beer?  Free Easter eggs?
    
    Methinks this will be pretty important when the awarding of expansion
    franchises comes around.
    
    Dickstah
    

    RE: .30
    
    Not that amazing when you think of all the New Yorkers and Balitmorons
    that now live in south Florida.
    
    This is not a valid reflection of how they would support their own
    team...unless that team was playing the Yanks or O's.
    
    Still, it will impress the committee.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    But how many fans would turn out on a sweltering day in August?
    Maybe if they built an air-conditioned stadium?
    
    
    
    Steve

    
    >    But how many fans would turn out on a sweltering day in August?
    
    My guess is that they'd play just about all night games, like the Texas
    Rangers.
    
    Dickstah
    

    
    Holy Cow! And how 'bout that Nolan Ryan pitching his seventh no-hitter
    lasted night. Wow! 44 years old, too.
    
    Ricky stole a base yesterday. BFD, so what and all that.  His interview
    afterward sounded worse than Muhammed Ali on his worst day.  This guy
    needs a frikken ego lobotomy.
    
    Dickstah
    

    
    P.S.  I forgot to mention, Nolan was clocked at 96 MPH on some pitches
    too.
    
    Dickstah
    

    AL Monthly Awards:
    
    Pitcher of the Month -- Roger Clemens
    Player of the Month -- Dave Henderson

    If Nolar Ryan is/was so good, how many "perfect" games
    has he pitched???
    
    Deen to Wonk
    
    Kev
    

    Rickey Henderson steals third base.  The game is stopped.  The crowd
    cheers.  Lou Brock comes out and says a few kind words.  Then Henerson
    grabs the microphone and says, "I am the greatest of all time."
    
    Nolan Ryan pitches his 7th no-hitter.  After the game he said he had
    felt old and sore all day.  Then he says, "This is the one I wanted
    because it was in front of the fans on Arlington Appreciation Night."
    
    Now, who is the true role model here?
    
    	--dan'l

    
    	I just love the fact that Nolan's #7 totally overshadowed
    	Rickey "I am the greatest" Henderson breaking the stolen
    	base record.
    
    	Claybroon

Henderson could use a few lessons in humility from Mr. Ryan.

What a jerk!



Steve

    I half expected Ricky to say...
    
    ..."Today(day,day) I consider you(you,you) the luckiest people on the
    face of the earth(earth,earth). I thank no one but myself, and I'm the
    best there ever was(was,was)!"
    
    Kinda like what Al Bundy did, only Al was funny. 

    
    Anyone ever seen Rickey Henderson and Chuck Person in the same 
    place at the same time?
    
    glenn
    

I too am glad that Ryan's Lucky Seventh stole some of the thunder from
Rickey "Jesus Can My Ego Fit in Yankee Stadium" Henderson....

I've never been a fan of people who say I'm the greatest.  I'd much
rather hear an athlete give credit to his teammates.  If I remember correctly,
when OJ Simpson set the single season rushing record, the first people he
thanked were his offensive line.

There were many other remarks that Henderson could have made.


As to Nolan....HOLY COW, this guy amazes the sh_t outta me.


'Saw

    
    May 1st 1991 was an interesting day in baseball.  The Brewers
    and the White Sox played a 19 inning game along with Henderson's
    steal and Ryan no hitter.
    
    I think it is pretty ironic that Nolan Ryans 5000th strike out
    was Rickey Henderson.
    
    \pjb

    When talking about what a jerk Henderson is don't forget to include 
    the stink he made in spring training about wanting his contract
    renegotiated, complete with an implication that unless he got it he
    might not put out at 100%.
    
    BARF.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

	A few days ago youze guys was calling me old because I's 39.  Well 
here's this guy *5* years older 'n me no hittin' and stiking out 17 of 
them young Toronto studs!  Heh, heh, heh...

				/Don

Hey Slasher, 

Just because Ryan taught that Jesus fellow who pitched in the Jerusalem
league every pitch he knew, doesn't make him OLD......

8^)

'Saw

    SLASHER.. YA REALLY cut me up big guy..
    
    :)
    dinz
    

    Read Ricky Henderson's speech he made following his record and count
    how many times he uses the word "I".
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Glad to see a class act like Nolan upstage Henderson last night.
    
    Mike

Ricky's ego is the reason people hate him....


It's a meaningless record anyway and deep down Ricky knows it.


Thanks for stealing the spotlight Nolan....


  Metz
 

OK, Ricky is a jerk, no argument from me.

But why is base stealing such a meaningless record??  Among the more compelling 
arguements for stealing are avoiding double plays and scoring runs (or at least 
moving into scoring position), both of which help teams win.  Among the less 
compelling arguements are that in rotiss leagues it is an important stat, 
Ellis Burks (and the Red Sox as a team) is often faulted for his lack of base 
stealing (why would they be if it were meaningless?), and this record-chase 
itself has gotten lots of attention.

Why is the record so meaningless??  Because a classless jerk know owns it??

Scott

Because you have to have such a high % in order for it to be worth the risk
of the attempted steal. There are times when the stolen base is a valuable tool
to help you win the game. More often then not the stolen base has no effect on
the outcome of the game. Simply garnering the most stolen bases is therefore
a meaningless record. Ricky often steals a base just for the sake of stealing
a base. 

Theorists propose that if Brock had tried to steal every time he could have he'd
have a lot more steals than Ricky still.

The red SOx fall under more criticism for their lack of base running skills then
their lack of stolen bases. As a team they lack the ability to take the extra
base on a base hit. Often taking 4 hits to score 1 run. Lack of team speed 
contributes to their high LOB count. Failing to score from 2nd on a base hit to
right field (a common occurance with the sox) is a more just criticism of this
team than a simple lack of stolen bases.

Ellis burkes should concentrate on his base running abilities before he even 
starts thinking about becoming a base stealer. 


Metz

    
    Since he entered the majors, Ricky has stolen more bases than the
    entire Boston Red Sox team for the same time period.
    
    Why is this not a surprise?
    
    Dickstah
    

I agree that Henderson steals sometimes simply to steal.  
Basestealing is pretty much a function of speed.  Granted you have to
know the pitchers and catchers and stuff, but no matter how good you
know them, if you're slow, it ain't gonna happen.

So, we know that Rickey's fast.  Ok, big deal.  He was faster than the
catcher's throw 900-odd times.  whoopee.  Does that make him the best there
ever was?  I don't think so.

I'm much more impressed with Nolan's feat than Hendersons.....

'SAw

>More often then not the stolen base has no effect on
>the outcome of the game. 
    
    More often than not, most discrete events have no effect on the outcome
    of the game.  But their duly noted, counted up, itemized and the
    leaders are lionized.
    
>Simply garnering the most stolen bases is therefore
>a meaningless record. 
    
    A non-sequitar.  And untrue at that.
    
>Ricky often steals a base just for the sake of stealing a base. 
    
    Do you have any evidence that he does this more or less than others in
    the field?  I've *never* seen any.  Do we discount Henry Aaron's
    homeruns, because some of them were just for the sake of hitting a home
    run, and didn't effect the outcome of the game?  Do we only count what
    you consider the important events of other peoples careers?  Geez, Wade
    Boggs would be about a .120 hitter and ...  waitaminute, maybe you're
    onto something here.
    
    Dan

If you think Henderson cried about his contract thised season, 
just wait 'til nexted season! 


Steve

    Sheez, Nolan Ryan , 44 and still going strong.  
    
    44 does sound sort of old right now.  Heck, I hope that when I'm 44 I
    can still take care of the wife 7 times a night!!!I'll be distapointed
    if'n I can't.
    
    
    JaKe
    

Sorry Metz, we'll have to agree to disagree here.  RH has been a MVP or MVP 
canditate for many years, his base stealing not be the only factor obviously 
but is a part of it I'm sure.  The stolen base moves you into scoring position,
improves your scoring position, or scores a run.

And lack of base stealing has been just as heavily critisized as overall lack 
of speed here in Boston.  

>                    Failing to score from 2nd on a base hit to
>right field (a common occurance with the sox) is a more just criticism of this
>team than a simple lack of stolen bases.

Certainly both are worthy of criticism.  More just??  I don't think so, but 
hey, we can have different opinions right?

>Ellis burkes should concentrate on his base running abilities before he even 
>starts thinking about becoming a base stealer. 

Yup, one will lead to the other.

Scott

    Kwak
    
    It's 7 times only if she gets tired.  Ya know them young'ns.  I think
    she's trying te get the life insurance.  Oh well, at least I've found
    another use for Slick 50!!
    
    JaKe
    

    Yup.  It has been shown that a 67% success rate is the break even point
    for basestealing to be a net gain.
    
    I agree with whoever mentioned the Red Sox.  Fenway Park biases their
    offense too much in favor of slow-footed, long ball hitters.  In
    Fenway, that works to a certain extent.  They get killed in the bigger
    ballparks because they have slow-footed fielders (ie, no range), cannot
    stretch long singles into doubles, seldom go from first to third and
    seldom score from second on singles.  Offensively, they play
    one-base-at-a-time.  It's not so much of a problem in Fenway but it is
    on the road.
    
    It's a home bias similar to that of the Bruins.  Because of the smaller
    rink, they place an emphasis on the checking, grinding game and
    deemphasize speed and skating.  At home, they get away with it.  It
    works against them on the road (but I can't explain why they've have
    such a good road record in recent years).
    
    John

                                
    > Just because the same opinion is repeated over and over again doesn't
    > make it right (although some noters in here may disagree ~/~).  Didn't
    > Bill James show that you need to be successfull something like 2/3 of
    > the time to make basestealing a worthwhile strategy?
    
    Which has never been an argument that could be used against Henderson,
    who has been successful 81% of the time over his career, to Brock's
    75%.  Make no mistake about it, Henderson's stolen base record is
    significant both by the sheer numbers and in the extra runs produced
    and games won via the steals.
    
    None of which has anything at all to do with Henderson's opinion of
    himself...
    
    glenn
    

I'll just postulate another question....

Do you think Ricky is going to continue to steal at his present rate now that 
he's got the record?


It'll be interesting to watch this over the next 3 years or so.

Another factor to consider....How many times has ricky been injured trying to 
steal a base? IMO he's much more valuable in the lineup every day getting on
base and taking the extra base on hits and rattling the pitcher than sitting on
the bench as a result of an injury stealing.

I think he's the best leadoff hitter to play the game but I equate his stolen
base record with the most saves in a season record that keeps getting higher
every year. Both are results of improved athletes and evolution of the game.


Metz

    Nolan Ryan is nothing short of amazing.  His eye-popping success
    at his age makes the claims about what Satchel Paige did in his
    40s in the Negro Leagues all the more believable.
    
    A couple of weeks back ESPN threw up a graphic showing his ERA,
    opposition BA, and SO/9 (and some other stat I forget) pre-40 and 
    post-40.  He had improved every category since turning 40.  Amazing
    beyond comprehension given that he was a superstar *before* turning
    40.
    
    And the there's Pudge.  A catcher no less!
    
    MrT 

>I'll just postulate another question....

Ok, I'll play   ;^)

>Do you think Ricky is going to continue to steal at his present rate now that 
>he's got the record?

Don't know, but if it doesn't I think it will reflect on his self-centered, 
egotistical fat haid more than on the record itself.  It depends on if he 
is/was stealing for himself and the help it gave to his team was just a 
by-product of his previously mentioned fat haid.

>Another factor to consider....How many times has ricky been injured trying to 
>steal a base? IMO he's much more valuable in the lineup every day getting on
>base and taking the extra base on hits and rattling the pitcher than sitting on
>the bench as a result of an injury stealing.

Obviously he does nothing for any team other than the opposition by sitting on 
the bench.  By taking extra bases on hits, does he have to slide??  He could 
get injured trying to turn a single into a double or a double into a triple 
just as easily, no??  Playing for the long term, i.e. "playing it safe" hurts a 
team IMO because if he goes down tomorrow for good the value he could have 
given in the short term is lost.  It is an interesting factor though and just 
like most things there is no absolute right or wrong...

>I think he's the best leadoff hitter to play the game but I equate his stolen
>base record with the most saves in a season record that keeps getting higher
>every year. Both are results of improved athletes and evolution of the game.

I can see this.  Really, I can!!!

Scott

    Did Rickey save the record breaking attempt just for the Yankees?

    Rickey's a lead pipe cinch for the HoF cuz not only is he the
    greatest-ever base stealer, he hits for power and average.  I'd
    be tempted to call him maybe the best player ever if he wasn't
    such a stiff in the OF.
    
    MrT

>Do you think Ricky is going to continue to steal at his present rate now that 
>he's got the record?
    
    No, but not because he's got the record.  He's 31 years old now, and if
    you look, he's already been caught as often as he's succeeded this
    year.  Has he lost a step?  I wouldn't say so yet considering his lack
    of training this spring.
    
>How many times has ricky been injured trying to steal a base?
    
    I don't ever remember any single injury because of stealing, but all
    that headfirst sliding certainly takes a longterm toll on his body. 
    But without the arrogance of the stolen base, the head games he plays
    with the pitcher and catcher, the rest of what is Rickey Henderson
    wouldn't be there.
    
>I think he's the best leadoff hitter to play the game but I equate his stolen
>base record with the most saves in a season record that keeps getting higher
>every year. Both are results of improved athletes and evolution of the game.
    
    In a sense, yes, but SBs are a lot further along than Saves.  Consider
    how long Cobb held the record until Brock broke it.  About 50 years. 
    Another 15 for Rickey.  The season record is nearly the same, 96 by
    Cobb in the 1910s, to 104 by Wills in '62 to early-70s Brock, to 1981
    Henderson.  Compare that to Saves which were only invented late in the
    game, and then re-invented in the 70s, and further defined again since.
    Much different animals, and no athletic improvement and evolution are
    no reason to denigrate his accomplishment.
    
    Dan

    Ricky is no stiff in the field, and has a Gold Glove to prove it.
    
    He has CF's range (in fact, he played there early on), but alas, a
    LF'ers arm.
    
    And you may think he is a cocky so-and-so, but don't degrade a record
    because of it. 
    
    Henderson broke Brock's record in what, 12+ seasons ? Brock took 18 to
    compile it. That is amazing, considering Aaron need extra games to
    catch Ruth, Rose to catch Cobb etc ...
    
    Coleman doesn't get on base enough to catch Ricky IMO.... Ricky will
    jack the steal mark to around 1,300-1,400 ...

>>                        <<< Note 4.45 by BASEX::BROWN >>>
>>    I think it is pretty ironic that Nolan Ryans 5000th strike out
>>    was Rickey Henderson.
>>    
>>    \pjb

Also pretty ironic that Henderson was the final out in Ryan's last no-hitter.

j.

    Rickey Henderson's name in the record books for most steals lifetime
    and season should have an asterick next to it... because..
    
    of park-effect!!!!!
    
    REK
    
    HAHAHAHAHA

    >Ricky is no stiff in the field, and has a Gold Glove to prove it.
    
    Gold Gloves are routinely handed out to the third or fourth best
    at a position.  Rickey Henderson has one a the worst jumps on hit
    balls in the game.  Speed is a detriment when that first step is
    taken in the wrong direction.
    
    MrT

 Geez Slash, you're already showing that age already. I read it was 16 batters
 that Ryan Ko'ed....

 What T said about Ricky..........

 mike

	Rickey is the greatest leadoff hitter ever.  Period.  But like T 
says his fielding isn't up to snuff.  I remember *reading* what a great 
fielder he was, but when he played for the Yanks I saw quite a few games on 
WPIX and he didn't impress me at all.  How important are the stolen bases 
etc...?  I remember reading a while back that the team that scores the 
first run in the first inning won over 60% of the time.  If this is 
anywhere hear correct then Ricky's stolen bases and OBP are very important.
I agree he acted like a jerk the other day with Brock right at his side, 
but that has nothing to do with his baseball ability.

				/Don

    Rickey Henderson has done a great thing and has set a significant
    record.  There.  Someone said it.  And I believe it.  This is
    regardless of the actual value of the stolen base, too.
    
    On personalities, what I like about Ryan is that he seems to have
    genuine respect for his teammates, opponents and everyone else involved
    with the game whereas Rickey doesn't seem to.  This shouldn't diminish
    Rickey's achievement but it does for some people.  I made the point
    once that what annoyed Celtics fans about the Lakers and kept Celtics
    fans from truly appreciating what how good the Lakers were in the
    eighties was the "cult" of Hollywood stars who seemed to come out of
    the woodwork when the Lakers were in the Finals.  I said, if you ignore
    that and appreciate them for their basketball, then you'd have a lot
    more respect for them.
    
    I try to ignore Rickey's personality and just focus on his achievements
    but I can't always, especially with his ridiculous threats about his
    contract.  Ryan's achievements come with no excess baggage like that. 
    Dan, I'm sorry if you disagree with that but I'm only human.
    
    John

    re .76
    
    Actually Rick, Brock brought up an interesting point. He felt that
    Ricky *may* not have stolen as many bases had they been contemporaries.
    Not because of catchers or pitchers per se, but because groundskeepers
    in that time were notorious for watering down the basepaths (making it
    the appx. consistency of quicksand) to slow down base thieves ....
    
    As for Ricky's speech, from what I hear, he paid some pretty heartfelt
    tributes to peole like Billy Martin, Tom Treblehorn, and the Haas family
    (whom he gave SB #892 to)... however, the only line that gets reported
    is the "I'm the greatest" one ...
    
    It's all a matter of perception I suppose.

    >Rickey Henderson has one a the worst jumps on hit
    >balls in the game.  Speed is a detriment when that first step is
    >taken in the wrong direction.
    
    You should see Mike Greenwell play more often.  No comparison there. 
    I'd say Henderson deserved his Gold Glove in left, and he's certainly
    been one of the top at the position for years.  The other side of the
    coin is that that isn't saying a lot in the AL.  It's been a fairly
    weak defensive position for the last decade or so.  A number of
    *really* bad fielders have been and still are out there.
    
    Dan

    > Rickey's a lead pipe cinch for the HoF cuz not only is he the
    > greatest-ever base stealer, he hits for power and average.  I'd
    > be tempted to call him maybe the best player ever if he wasn't
    > such a stiff in the OF.
    
    Hey, MrT, I thought you wuz telling us that Rickey was just an ordinary
    ballplayer without that cheat-ass strike zone a his.  It sounds like
    youse stole my argument...
    
    Rickey won one Gold Glove ten years ago.  Considering his offensive
    production and speed, that ain't much to brag about.  (Yes, you
    heard me right, there's a definite correlation between a player's
    overall ability and his likelihood of winning the proven-bogus Gold
    Glove award... see Steve Garvey, et al).  And Dan, they hand those 
    Gold Gloves out to the three best outfielders of any flavor now 
    (another stupid idea), effectively resulting in three Gold Glove 
    centerfielders every year.
    
    Rickey has been an average to slightly above-average leftfielder over
    his career, though, which shouldn't count for or against him, really.
    
    glenn
     

    >And Dan, they hand those 
    >Gold Gloves out to the three best outfielders of any flavor now 
    >(another stupid idea), effectively resulting in three Gold Glove 
    >centerfielders every year.                
    
    How long has it been like that?  Not during Rickey's whole career, I
    don't think.  He might seem average to slightly above against all
    outfielders, but I still maintain he's real high on the list of AL left
    fielders which should serve as his relative comparisons.
    
    Dan

    
    Ricky Henderson......if there ever was a reason to bring back the old
    YOUR(sic) A JERK note.....
    
    Dickstah
    

    > How long has it been like that?  Not during Rickey's whole career, I
    > don't think.  He might seem average to slightly above against all
    > outfielders, but I still maintain he's real high on the list of AL left
    > fielders which should serve as his relative comparisons.
    
    Since 1961, believe it or not (I've exaggerated on centerfielders
    always winning, though).  In any case, yes, I'd say Rickey is 
    fantastic as compared against all AL leftfielders, but the more 
    relevant comparison for defensive ability is with all outfielders, 
    since left field is the dumping ground for all prospective DH 
    candidates and the least important defensive position on the field.  
    Rickey is at least an average *outfielder* and not a stiff, though, 
    and his defense should not be counted against him.
    
    glenn
     

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  >  44 does sound sort of old right now.  Heck, I hope that when I'm 44 I
  >  can still take care of the wife 7 times a night!!!I'll be distapointed
  >  if'n I can't.
   
   
  >  JaKe
    
    
    Sheesh JaKE,seven times a night you go fetch your wife a drink of water
    when she demands it?  And you want to continue on with this unmanly
    charade? Between her and all the kids, youse must get no sleep.  No 
    wonder you gots such big solar panels.  8^)

    
    
    >>charade? Between her and all the kids, youse must get no sleep.  No 
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Why do you think I come to work here????   (8^0   (8^)*
    
    I've bargained her down from 9 a night and my next contract will call
    for 5 a night, with a night off every now and then for good behavior!!
    
    :-)  ;-)
    
    JaKe
    
    

    With the A.L. East teams beating up on the teams from the West, maybe
    we'll stop hearing about the inferiority of the ALeast.

    The Queen of England attended the Oakland Baltimore game last night. 
    After delaying the start of the game for 45 minutes with all kinds of
    pomp and circumcision, she and George the war-monger left after the
    second inning.  My question then is, why bother?
    
    	--dan'l

    re .90:
    
    She didn't miss much.  :-(
    
    
    py

dan'l

mebbe they went to the baffroom and came back and sat somewhere else.

HTH, 

rick

    
    RE:  Queen of England.
    
    Hollywood has a way of predicting the future. Remember the Naked Gun.
    The queen was attending a game in Anahiem and Reggie Jackson was
    programmed to kill her.  Leslie Nielson was the undercover ump.
    
    \pjb

Why the Queen left early:

	Maybe she wasn't amused....


At least she didn't order anyone's head cut off 8^) 8^) 8^)


'Saw

    re: past few
    
    Since Reggie was at the game as an A's coach, maybe she wanted to leave
    before the 7th inning stretch.   ;*)
    
    Dennis
    

    Did Enrico Palazzo do the National Anthem?  

    Manager John Wathan got the axe today by the KC Royals.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    In the Royals case, they should have axed the team doctor and trainer. 
    Afterall, they're not keeping the team healthy.

    The KC Royals hired Hal McRae as their new manager.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Any comments on "classy" Tony LaRussa, Dave Stewart, and Rickey
    Henderson's attempts to threaten and intimidate a 65-year-old
    sportswriter trying to do his job?
    
    The A's seem to have clubhouse problems whenever they go to Chicago,
    don't they?
    
    glenn
    

    I loved the writer's "be a man" comment! ;-)  Hard to say what exactly
    happened though with all the bleeps.
    
    Mike

>    Any comments on "classy" Tony LaRussa, Dave Stewart, and Rickey
>    Henderson's attempts to threaten and intimidate a 65-year-old
>    sportswriter trying to do his job?

Glad to see Tony LaRussa's true colors were seen "live on video tape" !
....he of the law degree.

    Yeah, I've a comment ...
    
    
    
    I hope they slapped the old geezer around real good !
    
    Doc

    What, doesn't our animal rights activist-who-cain't-manage-a-lineup-
    card-with-no-DH consider humans to be animals?
    
    MrT

    Can someone please relate the details of the incident to those of us
    who haven't heard anything about it outside of this notesfile?
    
    Thanks

    What Mac said.
    
    Lee

    
    The Tigers are currently playing the A's in Oakland this week.
    Our local sportcaster ran a story about an upcoming series between
    Texas and Oakland.  It seems that a rag newspaper in Texas is having a
    Madonna look-alike contest.  20 winners will be selected and given
    tickets to the Rangers A's game.  The seats our course will be
    in right field.  It will be interesting to see how Jose reacts.
    
    Another thought about baseball.  Detroit commentator George Kell
    predicted with expansion someone will win 30 games and a batter will
    hit .400.  He thinks that expansion at this time is bad for baseball.
    If they want Miami and Denver to have a team move an existing team
    that isn't drawing very well to these cities.
    
    \pjb

    They aren't expanding to give Miami and Denver a team.  They are
    expanding for 190 million reasons - the $95 million per team to be
    allocated among the existing franchises.  The last time baseball
    expanded, the franchise fees were $7 million for Toronto and $6
    million for Seattle.  The goodness of their hearts in giving Denver and
    Miami teams has nothing to do with this whatsoever.
    
    John
    
    

Interesting comment about the future expansion, and players stats.  

There is little doubt that you are watering down talent (Matt Nokes is a star?),
and this may lead to better stats.  I wonder, however, how much of this is made 
up for with the additional travel that occurs with more teams.

=Bob=

    Bob, take away the DG and I'll agree with you.
    
    Mark.

 Mark,                                 
 
 As much as I despise it and urgently call for its removal, even the
 detestable designated hitter rule has not hurt the game of baseball.
 
 It might offend every known baseball purist alive today but it has not
 damaged the game.    Baseball has never been healthier.   Hell, I don't
 think it's ever even known lean times.
 
 Bob Hunt

I have hairy armpits too!  I wonder how many look alike points that would
garner me in a look alike contest.

Unfortunately I can't put my feet up around my head to drink a glass of
milk....

oh well, maybe I won't enter anway....

'Saw

RE: Madonna look alikes

Are they all going to sit in right field and chant "Hey diddle, diddle"?

>>RE: Madonna look alikes

>>Are they all going to sit in right field and chant "Hey diddle, diddle"?

Almost, ==bob.

Of course, they'll have to sit in center and chant "Hey diddle, middle."

rick

    The Twins have won 12 in a row.  Does this mean the fickle fans of
    Minnesota will now pack the stadium and somehow deservedly be more
    knowledgeable about baseball than any other city in the country?  
    
    	--dan'l

    Read this interesting tidbit in the paper last week - especially caught
    my eye due to the old Dan/MRT Designated Gimmick arguement.
    
    Seems Fay Vincent would like to do away with the DG experiment.
    
    The article went on to explain the history of the DH.  In short, it
    supported MrT's claims.   Basically, the American League was lagging
    behind the National League in attendance, ratings, etc. - so in order
    to artificially boost fans interest by revving up the offense, the DH
    was born.  Vincent expects a battle from the Player's Union, because
    the DH has been a place where old, unable-to-play-the-field-anymore,
    stars have settled in to extend their careers...
    
    JD

    
    >    the DH has been a place where old, unable-to-play-the-field-anymore,
    >    stars have settled in to extend their careers...
    
    Which is why, when they make a definite announcement, the
    implementation date will be at least two years away, in order for
    the teams to phase out the mega-contracts of guys like Jack "The
    Whiffer" Clark and Mike "Crybaby" Marshall.
    
    Don't look now, but I said in an earlier file that I *liked* the DH.
    With the young guys the Sox have waiting in Pawtucket with no place to
    go, I can say that I have seen the light.  Dump the DH.
    
    Dickstah
    

Dump the DH and you'll see a lot of records preserved You also won't see aged
stars hanging on to try and reach that elusive statistic that will guarentee
Hall-of-Fame Entry.

I'd love to see Dave Parker try and play the field again. Has he played the
field in the last 5 years or so? 

It'll get a big battle from the players union though....

Metz

    Dump the DG.
    
    Mark.

    JD, Dan was the one who caimed the AL lagged the NL in attendance and
    revenue.  MrT was the one who kept asking him to prove it.
    
    Just because some clubs tend to get the old timer to hang on at DH,
    doesn't mean it's bad.  That's like saying that since Gooden got a game
    winning hit the other night that pitchers are slugging machines.  Jim
    Rice would have been held back in Pawtucket if it weren't for the DH. 
    If the Sox weren't able to land Clark we probably would have seen
    Vaughn up.

 According to Jack Clark, Lou Gorman told him it was DH or nothing for
 him in Boston.   Clark has repeatedly said that he wants to play in
 the field to stay totally involved in the game and, thus, hit better.
 
 Bob Hunt

 So Mac are you in favor of the wimp rule or not? Pitchers should hit period!
 There is no reason on this earth that a pitcher should be an automatic K if
 that pitcher is willing to work on his hitting. 

 mike

    Having seen the way, oh, say, Bud Black has been smacking the ball over
    at SF (a guy who had ZERO batting experience since prob'ly somewhere
    back in high school??), I wonder sometimes how long it would take for 
    AL pitchers to become hitters again -- some of them gotta be better
    able to at least move runners along/sacrifice than the current crop of
    "sluggers"...
    
    - SteveT, who_likes_the_DH_only_cause_it_keeps_old-f**ks_employed
    

    >The article went on to explain the history of the DH.  In short, it
    >supported MrT's claims.   Basically, the American League was lagging
    >behind the National League in attendance, ratings, etc. - so in order
    >to artificially boost fans interest by revving up the offense, the DH
    >was born. 
    
    Thanks for entering that, JD.  Except you made one small error.  Those
    are my claims, leaving MrT claiming that the AL *was NOT* lagging the
    NL in anything, but that both were equally hurting in terms of fan
    dollars and that the AL blinked, and copped out with the DH.  MrT made
    that stuff up and never once supported any of it.
    
    BTW, Vincent also admitted that the DH was a success in doing what it
    was designed to do.  That he would rather it be gone is irrelevant to
    it's correct origins.
    
    Dan

    	Dump the DG and let's see how good a manager Tony "Mr. Wonderful"
    Laroosa really is.  If they ever make managers in the A.L. "think"
    again Joe Morgan had better start learning how to roll out the tarp.
    
    				/Don

I really don't ahve a problem with the way Morgan has managed this year. Looking
at the team from 3000 miles away it seems that he's using the bull pen a lot
more effectively and has done a pretty good job at moving people around and 
sitting guys down for rests when they haven't been effective.

I really thought he was a dolt his first 2 years as manager but other than
playing a few stupid hunches now and then he's done a respectable job for the
Sox.

He'd probably trip over his pencil if the DG was eliminated and he was forced to
figure out the double switch however :-)


Metz

1 day till vacation.........

    
    Actually, since MrT has disappeared as of late (probably finally broke
    down and got some counseling over that North Stars thing), I don't
    think anyone was denying that the AL attendance was lower than NL
    attendance at the time the DH was incorporated.  I believe what MrT was
    asking proof of was that AL cities had some special business need that
    the NL didn't, that the fans in the AL cities were somehow crying out 
    for offense while the fans in the NL cities didn't seem to mind.  And
    indeed, after the DH was instituted the AL cities continued to lag
    behind the NL cities in attendance, although the business climate for
    all of MLB, regardless of the DH, eventually boomed.  
    
    The claim that the DH was in any way responsible for this overall 
    turn-around is specious, and I think that Vincent's proclamation of it 
    as a "success" at the same time he wants to scrap it is telling and
    most obviously nothing more than a conciliatory gesture.  What did you 
    expect him to do, declare it an abject failure and then try to jam 
    change down the AL owners' throats?
    
    The fact of the matter is that baseball is cyclical, and offensive 
    output tends to rise and fall in one league relative to other based on 
    a number of transient factors.  I happen to thing that making short-term 
    rule changes in one league and not in the other to artificially "fix" a 
    naturally correcting problem is dumb.  The DH should be judged on its
    own merits and scrapped entirely or implemented universally, not
    propped up based on quick-fix temporary business and financial 
    considerations.
    
    glenn
    

I kind of like the DH.  It puts more offense into the game, and eliminates some
of the beanball s**t that goes on.

If they got rid of it, however, it wouldn't bother me.  The thing that does bother
me is that the two leagues have different rules.  This is BASEBALL, and it should
be played the same way in both leagues.  The DH changes strategy enough so they
are playing differently.

Dump it, or put it in in the NL, none of this AL has it, NL doesn't crap.

=Bob=

    Dump the DG and force college and high school pitchers to hit once
    again.
    
    Mark.

    >> I kind of like the DH.  It puts more offense into the game, and
    >> eliminates some of the beanball s**t that goes on.
     
    Hmm, I can think of some folks who've gotten concussions over the last
    few weeks (in the DHful AL, that is) might be of a mind to question
    that...  ;^}
    
    - SteveT
    

    Metal bats will be around for as long as the athletic budgets are low. 
    While I agree that metal bats hurt the game, schools just can't afford
    wooden bats.
    
    John

> And to those who think Tony La Russa doesn't put a lot of thought
> into managing a ball club, read George Will's "Men At Work".   You'll
> change your mind once and forever about La Russa.   He knows what
> he's doing and he's got the win-loss record to prove it.
    
    Yes, but there's no denying that he had slipped into some kind of trance 
    when he sat there in Game 2 of the Series last year and let a lead slip 
    away with the guy who'd had the best season in relief in major league
    history still warming in the bullpen (and then blamed his rightfielder
    for the loss when he left that ailing player out there on defense under
    the same circumstances...)
    
    glenn
    

                                   
 > I'll bet that Giamatti would have loved this idea.
    
    Not if he had to pay for it he wouldn't have.
    
    MLB does subsidize the use of wooden bats in some controlled 
    environments where it makes sense for them to do so, like the Cape Cod
    League (I believe an amateur league in Alaska also uses them).  Because 
    approximately one-third of all big leaguers play at one time in the
    Cape League during the summer, it is well worth it to MLB to evaluate 
    the talent that collects there playing with wood bats.
    
    I don't believe it's practical for MLB to supply all NCAA schools (or
    even just Division 1-A schools) with wood bats, much less below that 
    level.  And I don't really think it's a serious threat to way the
    game is played at the big league level for the colleges on down to 
    use aluminum bats, either.  If it creeps any higher than that, though, 
    I'll be screaming bloody murder too...
    
    glenn
    
    

> I have no idea why the
> 1990 Series against the Reds went so poorly for the A's.   The Reds
> may just have hit one of those magic "zones" where nothing went
> wrong.

It's simple. Good pitching beats good hitting. 

The 88 Dodgers won for the same reason. In a short series all you need is one 
hot starter and a 2nd good starter to keep you in the game. Add 1 awesome 
bullpen and you get victory. 

Although the A's have had good pitchers over the years and team that can 
generate enough runs to enable a pitcher with an ERA over 4.00 to get 15+ wins
(Storm Davis) is winning a lot of games from offensive production. 

When they run into a team that limits their offense chances are they lose because
they haven't had to shut down oppositions to win previously.

The 89 Giants had no pitching which is why the A's cleaned their clocks. I 
predicted the Reds victory over the A's based on short term pitching superiority.

You get the good 7 game series when each team has the same strengths...


Metz

    Has ESPN become the Oakland A's network or what?  Cripes!  Everytime I
    turn on their game, it's the A's vs somebody.  And the Whitesox are on
    a lot too.  What gives with this AL West coverage?
    
    	--dan'l

    >> Has ESPN become the Oakland A's network or what?  Cripes!  Everytime
    >> I turn on their game, it's the A's vs somebody.  And the Whitesox are
    >> on a lot too.  What gives with this AL West coverage?
          
    Could it be that the schedule was made out last year, and since the A's
    and Chisox were by FAR the most interesting AL teams around, they got
    top billing in the selection of games to be broadcast?  
    
    Besides, I haven't noticed this trend all that much -- I'm seeing a 
    LOT more Reds/Pirates/Mets/Dodgers than the abovementioned teams, and
    a fair sampling of other games.  (It also seems like the Red Sox are
    getting a lot of games, but since they get blacked out in Boston, we're
    seeing all the other clubs a lot more...
    
    - SteveT

    re .144:
    
    One of the announcers on an ESPN game last week said that their
    schedule, except for Sunday night games, is determined only a week or
    so in advance.  (Who'd have thought back in April that Twins-Blue Jays
    tonight would be a battle of division leaders?)
    
    
    py

    Dan -  
    Mea Culpa.  Couldn't remember the complete arguement.  But it seems to
    me that the DH was used to prop up the game in the AL and massage the
    fans with bogus offense from Lite-Beer-Commercials-In-Training.
    
    I hope the dh goes bye-bye.
    
    As for aluminum bats - well you all now my feelings toward that.
    
    JD

    Another reason the A's/Dodgers are on a lot is the fact that they are
    on the West coast, and the majority of the 2nd double-header games are
    west coast games due to the tim difference. I think they could be
    showing more Dodger and Angels games, but then again I'm biased.  

    >    -< Before Dan gets carried away, let's set the record straight >-
    
    I did set the record straight, Glenn.  Being in on the discussion from
    the beginning has left me scarred with it's exact origins.    
    
    >The claim that the DH was in any way responsible for this overall 
    >turn-around is specious,
    
    Oh, no it's not.  The AL was lagging the NL in attendence and ratings
    for reasons I've discussed elsewhere (I'm sure it can be found in
    ASABET::BASEBALL for those curious).  There was not only a very real
    lag in AL business, but a lag in AL offense relative the NL: the AL
    did not recover as well from the Year of the Pitcher (1968).  Whether
    this was the reason for the business downturn, or one of the reasons,
    or not a reason at all is speculation, which can reasonably be guessed
    to be one of the most important reasons from studies done at the time,
    and the results.  The AL implemented the DH, and the offense perked
    back up.  Simultaneously, attendence rose in the AL relative to the NL. 
    With expansion in 1976, this could no longer be as accurately measured,
    but it is undeniable that the DH did accomplish it's goals: the AL
    offense improved relative the the NL and so did the attendence.
    
    Dan

Dan, 

Please set the record straight.

Is that *YOU* or is that an imposter, on that ABC-TV show "Head of the Class"?

Enquiring minds who saw Dan Schneider starring in that show want to know.....


'Saw

    > There was not only a very real
    > lag in AL business, but a lag in AL offense relative the NL: the AL
    > did not recover as well from the Year of the Pitcher (1968).  Whether
    > this was the reason for the business downturn, or one of the reasons,
    > or not a reason at all is speculation, which can reasonably be guessed
    > to be one of the most important reasons from studies done at the time,
    > and the results.                      
   
    So it's speculation, and you're not sure if AL offense was the problem, 
    but there were studies done and results collected.  That's very
    conclusive, Dan.  The major reason given for the attendance gap in that 
    period was that the NL got a big jump on the AL in the construction of
    new stadiums, a modernization that the AL didn't start trying to match 
    until around the time the DH was implemented.
    
    > The AL implemented the DH, and the offense perked
    > back up.  Simultaneously, attendence rose in the AL relative to the NL. 
    > With expansion in 1976, this could no longer be as accurately measured,
    > but it is undeniable that the DH did accomplish it's goals: the AL
    > offense improved relative the the NL and so did the attendence.
     
    There's no question that offense perked up.  It wasn't the basis of my
    argument (I said offense would perk back up eventually anyway so there 
    was no reason to make a major, artificial change in the rules to do so,
    or you'd be messing around NFL-style with rule changes all the time), 
    but MrT's argument was you never proved that the business justification 
    was borne out.  And you never did prove it.  We never saw any attendance 
    figures that showed AL attendance rose relative to the NL's after the 
    DH was implemented.  If it even indeed did, we never saw any proof that 
    it had anything to do with increased offense and not new ballparks or 
    the franchise moves which took place, or any number of other factors.
    
    We do know that AL attendance still was behind the NL's in 1977, which 
    was the reason the AL decided to expand again, and we also know that 
    franchise for franchise the NL is still a stronger league even now 
    after the cycle went the other way and *NL* offensive output dropped 
    in the late 80's to its lowest levels over 20 years.  Where's the proof 
    that the DH had anything at all to do with an economic turnaround in 
    the AL, independent of the overall success MLB has enjoyed in the 
    period the DH has existed?
    
    glenn
    

    >The major reason given for the attendance gap in that 
    >period was that the NL got a big jump on the AL in the construction of
    >new stadiums, a modernization that the AL didn't start trying to match 
    >until around the time the DH was implemented.
    
    You claim I've offered no evidence.  What evidence do you have when you
    claim that new parks are "The major reason" for the attendence gap?
    {And the very existence of the attendence gap is a victory for myself
    and the truth.  My opposition claimed it didn't exist.  Based on that,
    he inspired himself to further fantasies...}
    
    This is the first time I've ever heard that the parks were the major
    reason, and I disagree with it completely.  Offense, quality of ball
    players because of increased integration, quality of baseball caused by
    astro-turfed large parks, western expansion, population centers.  Those
    are all better reasons that what you have offered with the title
    major.
    
    >(I said offense would perk back up eventually anyway so there 
    >was no reason to make a major, artificial change in the rules to do so,
    >or you'd be messing around NFL-style with rule changes all the time), 
    
    When you're losing money today, you might not want to wait for
    "eventually".  Your fears about continual rule changes have been proven
    misplaced.  There was one rule change, which is as artificial or as
    natural as any other rule change, which performed it's assigned task. 
    It's quite probable that if taken away today, we'd see offensive parity
    between the leagues again, as "eventually" may be here.  But that does
    nothing to diminish the effectiveness of the DH in it's assigned task,
    and certainly represents one of those abhorrent major, artificial,
    NFL-style rule changes that I've heard of in less-than-praising tones.
    
    "Shall we ban the DH today?" is a different animal than "Did the DH do
    it's job?".
    
    >but MrT's argument was you never proved that the business justification 
    >was borne out.  And you never did prove it.
    
    MrT made many arguments, some of them consistent.  One was that the AL
    and NL were facing the same business conditions, and the AL got scared
    and implemented the DH while the NL was smart and left well enough
    alone.  This turned into the (false) basis for most of the rest of his
    anti-DH predisposed analysis.  Knowing that his basis was false, I
    faced him down on it time and time again.
    
    >We never saw any attendance 
    >figures that showed AL attendance rose relative to the NL's after the 
    >DH was implemented.  If it even indeed did, we never saw any proof that 
    >it had anything to do with increased offense and not new ballparks or 
    >the franchise moves which took place, or any number of other factors.
    
    Many books on baseball contain statements or implications that the AL
    attendence did pick up post-DH.  I have NEVER read one single reference
    (other than MrT's notes) which has claimed otherwise. I'm sure the
    numbers can be divulged from the Sporting News of the time.  The
    studies done showed that the casual fan, which is the one that needed
    to be lured to the park, was more interested in offense.  You
    tell me when I can start assuming it's true.  As for your latter
    complaint, I don't think there were exit polls conducted of the new
    fans asking them which factor brought them to the park.  I will rely on
    the studies done prior to the DH, assume their quality, and regard this
    fresh tangent as trivialities brought up knowing there is no definitive
    answer.
    
    Dan

    
    > You claim I've offered no evidence.  What evidence do you have when you
    > claim that new parks are "The major reason" for the attendence gap?
    > {And the very existence of the attendence gap is a victory for myself
    > and the truth.  My opposition claimed it didn't exist.  Based on that,
    > he inspired himself to further fantasies...}
    
    I recall differently; I thought the attendance gap was acknowledged but
    the DH as a realized fix wasn't, but no matter.
    
    From your own favorite source, _Total_Baseball_:
    
    "From a record of 15 million in 1966, NL attendance slipped to 11.7
    million in 1968, "the year of the pitcher".  Nevertheless, annual NL
    attendance consistently bettered that of the AL; overall NL attendance
    of this era topped that of the AL by 16 million admissions [1961-1968].  
    But a major factor accounting for NL attendance strength was the
    greater number of new ballparks in the senior circuit.  In this decade,
    seven of the ten newly constructed parks were occupied by NL teams."
    
    _Total_Baseball_ also goes on to detail all of the various moves the AL
    made in an attempt to right the moribund league, including franchise 
    moves, the DH, construction of new parks, and another expansion.  They
    don't reach any conclusions whether any, all, or a combination of some
    made the difference.  Again:
    
    "Indeed, drastic measures were needed to restore the AL's attendance
    deficit, which, over the years 1970-1976, lagged some 24 million
    admissions behind that of the NL."
    
    Unfortunately, they don't give a year-by-year breakdown, but that
    period consisted of *four* years *with* the DH and still a *greater* 
    attendance gap than in the previous (low offense) era.  That's the
    primary reason why the AL decided to expand unilaterally.
    
    I *have* done a little research on this issue.  Instead of making your
    usual accusations of falsehoods and hollow claims of victory, why don't 
    we see some of these "studies" or other hard evidence...
    
    glenn
     

    >I recall differently; I thought the attendance gap was acknowledged but
    >the DH as a realized fix wasn't.
    
    You recall wrong.
    
    >why don't we see some of these "studies" or other hard evidence...
    
    I've presented things on this in the distant past.  I had gone into
    detail on what was different between the leagues and how the gap had
    increased, and why the AL did what it did.  You pretend like I'm not
    offering any evidence whatsoever, which isn't as ugly as what MrT did,
    but is far from an open discussion of the issues.
    
    I'm afraid I don't have the time to take however many hours is needed
    to look through the Sporting News microfiche and get the attendence
    figures year to year.  I'm more afraid that coming back with such
    information I'd still face your delibrately unanswerable question of
    yesterday which wonders about the motivation of people entering the
    park.  Therefore, if it is your want, you can always claim that you
    don't have the conclusive evidence you need to state that the DH helped
    AL attendence figures.  I find it a shame you have to obfuscate with this
    beyond what the original disagreement I had with MrT was.  We both know
    if he re-enters this conversation where his new position will lay.
    
    >Unfortunately, they don't give a year-by-year breakdown, but that
    >period consisted of *four* years *with* the DH and still a *greater* 
    >attendance gap than in the previous (low offense) era.  That's the
    >primary reason why the AL decided to expand unilaterally.
    
    You're being unrealistic.  When a change is made on this order, there
    doesn't have to be immediate results.  We're talking about wooing the
    casual fan, and something like that I *would* expect to be noticed over
    years instead of games.  If the exit polls which would satisfy you did
    exist, I'd expect to see a gradual movement of  casual fans back to the
    game over time, and more going to the AL than the NL.  But there are so
    many factors involved, that almost any claim at all can be held to be
    consistent with the above incomplete data that you cite.  I'm finding
    the splitting of hairs over this issue tending towards meaninglessness.
    We aren't going to be able to run a regression analysis accounting for
    each factor's effect on attendence.
    
    >But a major factor accounting for NL attendance strength was the
    >greater number of new ballparks in the senior circuit.  In this decade,
    >seven of the ten newly constructed parks were occupied by NL teams."
    
    I disagree with this conclusion or at least site it as a gross
    oversimplification.  I'm sure Pittsburgh, Cincinnati,
    Philadephia attendences picked up immediately with new parks, but that
    sort of gimmickry will wane in time [excepting perhaps for Toronto]. 
    There were more general trends in baseball at the time which accounted
    for differences in the league.  Something like astroturf becoming a
    factor is park-related, but I consider it a different effect than just
    having a new park.
    
    Dan

    Dan, I am neither trying to obfuscate nor am I asking for exit polls or
    regression analyses.  In lieu of some evidence to the contrary, I am
    taking the common sense position that without the DH, the NL has
    continued to be the more popular league, even as offensive output in
    the National League has dropped well below that of the American League 
    in recent years, and even though the AL has made all of the improvements 
    and adjustments which originally put the NL a leg up in the late sixties.
    
    The DH was unnecessary, and there never was a popular mandate in favor
    of it.  Fay Vincent, for one, realizes this...
    
    glenn
     

    >I am
    >taking the common sense position that without the DH, the NL has
    >continued to be the more popular league,
    
    Your phrasing suggests the the NL is the more popular league because
    they don't have the DH.  I think the common sense position is that
    despite the appeal of the DH's results to the marginal fan, the NL,
    based on a variety of other strengths, remains the more popular league.
    
    While I agree that the DH was unnecessary in terms of life of the
    league, I maintain it had a purpose which it faithfully served.  As for
    the particulars of it, I like the increased competition it brings, and
    I find other changes in the game to have been more drastic to the
    game's fabric.
    
    Dan

    So, Fay takes a concrete action to start the process of ridding the 
    ALmost league a the Designated Geek, which underscored my already
    proved point that this stupid rule was a_unnecessary biz decsion. 
    
    It was SO nice to have the Commish agreeing with my analysis and
    prescribed cure!
    
    But, then Fay understandably throws the ALmost folks a political bone 
    so as to help them save some face, and Dan comes in to gnaw on it mumbling
    breathily between scavenger chomps about how this clear and substantive 
    endorsement of the MrT/ Waugaman camp actually proved HIM right.
    
    Should we be at all surprised by Dan's udderly shameless slurping-of-bone?
    We should not, for Dan is in essence the Linda Lovelace of SPORTS.
    
    Also, we should allow him to save some face too.  But in doing so, let's 
    remember these facks:
    
    1. While saying that the Geek rule accomplished its biz goal, Fay sneers
       so mightily that his eyebrow disappears under his receding hairline
       we cain see his incisor all the way up to root's end.
    
       If he really meant it, why wouldn't he standardize using the DG?
    
       But he doesn't mean it.  Elsewise he'd be recommending to the owners
       that an option that in his opinion would mean less success and money.
    
    2. Dan made a_assertion (i.e., substantive trend pre-1973 biz lag coupled 
       with differentiated marketing requirements) but then failed, as is his 
       habit, to offer any evidence to back his unbelievable claim.
    
    3. Baseball viewed its alleged biz woes as a whole.  The two leagues chose
       different paths, the then-AL the more hysterical a the two cuz a its
       historical 5% revenue lag.
    
       History proved beyond any argument that the ALmost people were wrong 
       and the NaturaL people were ever so right.
    
    Victoire !!
    
    Thank *you*, Fay.
    
    MrT

    Black is White; Night is Day; and MorT has returned to SPORTS.
    
    Dan

    >Black is White; Night is Day
    
    Now that's a typical Dan statement, ain't it.
    
    I'd tale ya to git your damned facks straight, but one hesistates
    to do that like they would to order a bad high school physics student
    to begin reconstruction of inert gas atoms.
    
    Hey, Dan.  It's slow in here and we need a laugh.  Could you do one
    a them math model jobs for us, please?
    
    MrT

    Hey, MorTie, you're the one who all these years claimed I made up the
    now proven lag between AL and NL.  And all you can do for your defense
    is extend cheap shots in my direction?  Sad.
    
    >Could you do one a them math model jobs for us, please?             
    
    Why?  Although I simplified it for your benefit, you still never
    understood.  Let others handle the theory.  Your better in the bluster
    end of things.  I'd say it's your special gift.
    
    Dan

    >you're the one o all these years claimed I made up the now
    >proven lag between the AL and NL.
    
    Pathological fibbery syndrome flaring up again, Air Snide?  I
    recommend you stay outta de sun and the nasty red inflammations
    will clear up somewhat.
    
    1) I only axed that you provide at least some data (which you never
       did), and that you demonstrate a signifcant trend more foreboding
     to the then-AL than to the NL.  You did neither.
    
    2Although I simplified it for your benefit, you still never r understood.
                                                                 
    I and everybody else immediately understood that your "model" broke 
    every rule in Statistics 101, and that the logic of the argument was
    shot full a holes.
    
    Btw, I only claimed that it was proved that the Geek turned out to be
    a_unnecessary  biz move.  The prove is in the puddin' as they say, and
    the NL has done at least as well as the ALmost since 197  To say
    otherwise requires proving that the ALmost had special baseball needs
    which no longer exist (even after nearly two decades of Geekery).
    
    >Fay refutes MrT's "facts"
    
    Fay's cociliatory bone throw refutes Fay's own actions.  Now, given that
    there exists a patent contradiction in the Commish's alleged statements
    (they've not been input in hereso who knows how much you're rewriting
    them tbuttress your lost argunt) an) which if actually made by context
    cain only be viewed as a conciliatory gesture - and the action he's
    taking that will involve risking tens of million of dollars - which Fay
    is to be believed?
    
    Obvious answer: Money talks, llsheet walks.s.  hy do you seize on the
    latter, Air?  The answer to *that* question is just as obvious.
    
    MrT

    >Show's over.
    
    No argument there.  18 years of gate receipts and TV ratings proved
    that the DG was unnecessary, a_undeniable and compelling fack now
    endorsed by the Commish himself.
    
    >You lost.
    
    I won.  First fan behavi proved me right.  Now MLB policy sez I 
    was right too.
    
    Where you've left a turd-pocked trail of loose ends and unanswered
    questions; I've got the Comish over in my corner, and betting tens
    of millions to boot!
    
    Thanks for acting as my sparring partner on this critical issue,
    Dan.  You were a very good punching bag, althougthat grunting got
    annoying at times...
    
    MrT(he Vict)

    
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Dan, I find it interesting that you're able to declare winners and
    losers while by your own account the best you've been able to come up 
    with through note after note of doublespeak is, in lieu of any data or
    other supporting evidence, "there is no definitive answer".  Hardly a 
    devastating knockout, no?  Of course, when I gave *you* some partial 
    attendance data for examination, you quickly dumped your argument that 
    AL attendance clearly picked up after the introduction of the DH
    because the offense picked up in favor of the more muddy and totally
    inconclusive "there doesn't have to be immediate results".  
    
    Furthermore, along the track of MrT's completely logical analysis of
    Fay Vincent's motives, how can you reconcile your claim that you'd
    "expect to see a gradual movement of casual fans back to the game over
    time, and more going to the AL than the NL" with Vincent's oft-stated
    intentions for the DH?  Vincent has to be either a face-saving fibber 
    to declare the DH a success (as T and I claim), or a complete 
    incompetent to want to scrap it given your long-term business argument.  
    If you claim the latter, you don't have Vincent as a credible supporter
    of your version of the DH's effect on the game's popularity, now do you? 
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn -
    
    Dan claims victory in every discussion in sports.  Has for as long as
    I've read this file.
    
    JD

    So very very right onGlenn, my main main.
    
    Exacerbating this sc is how he skulked off when we pursued
    factual ussion of the true cost/benefit of the Designated
    Geekeroo (as apart from the biz argument).
    
    I took it as a positive when Dan declared "victory" today.  Cuz,
    when he does that it generally means he knows he's lostt, but he's
    just too doggoned proud to admit it.
    
    MrT 

To quote my favorite actor, in one of my favorite films:

	"It doesn't amount to a hill of beans"



(As in who gives a hooey.....).  Either they'll change it or they won't.
It's been here (fact), it may still be here or may go away (fact).

Beyond that, what's all the debate except enough hot air to fill up
the Astrodome.....

JMHO,
'Saw

> (As in who gives a hooey.....)
    
    Actually, a lot of people.  That's the beauty of sport.  Some people
    lacquer up over the purity of the game of baseball, others more violent
    sports involving an oblong ball and roll after roll of electrical tape...
    
    ;-)
    
    glenn
    

Oh, I wasn't judging what was fit to print, I was just questioning whether
or not we had to pursue the rodent down myriad burrows to his den yet again,
when we've been there so many times before...

I mean, if we wanna pursue that rat, fine, but I just thought I could
head off the expedition down the hole, and maybe direct it to a new
area of the garden 8^)

'saw

    Gawd, this is fun.
    
    Welcome back T, and please help us see the light.
    
    Mark.

    Well it certainly was a victory for truth when it has been established
    beyond a shadow of a doubt exactly why the DH was born: to cope with
    the AL attendance lagging behind the NL attendance.  Any honest noter
    will attest that this was my position for years, and MorT was in the
    opposite camp, hurling invective at me for being right.
    
    Those are the origins of the DH.  Anti-DHers and so-called purists
    don't like the rule, yet I think they let that confuse them concerning
    it's origins and effects, as if discrediting its business side is part
    and parcel of disliking its influence on the game as played.
    
    It's like voting the straight ticket in a presidential year.  You've
    got to hold your nose at some of the candidates.  In this case, Glenn,
    MorT, and perhaps others have to hold their noses and claim the
    commissioner of baseball is lying because otherwise their point of view
    is discredited.
    
    >Vincent has to be either a face-saving fibber 
    >to declare the DH a success (as T and I claim), or a complete 
    >incompetent to want to scrap it given your long-term business argument.  
    
    Or, the logical alternative, Vincent is telling the truth about the
    success of the DH, yet noting other factors now exist.  Vincent is 
    definitely anti-DH in terms of how you play the game.  Vincent
    recognizes that the margins of the early 70s are laughable compared to
    what has happened to baseball in the 80s.  He didn't want the DH then
    (I surmise); he doesn't want it now.  But he recognizes the success of
    it as viewed by the AL, and also recognizes it is no longer necessary
    in these terms. 
    
    To make an analogy, Coca-Cola recognized the need for a low-cal cola
    many years ago.  They used the artificial sweetener of the time,
    saccarine and marketing Tab with great effect.  Nutrasweet and Diet
    Coke have since removed the need for Tab, yet you won't hear Coke
    execs, who might have hated to drink Tab with it's funny taste, say it
    was a business failure because they don't need it today.  [Note that
    they still market Tab.]  Because it was a success whose time was no
    longer necessary.
    
    That's what Vincent saw and stated.  I will concede that the DH is no
    longer (OK, for years) a business necessity, or even a viable business
    strategy.  If we were to get rid of the DH, we don't argue about it's
    business effects, but rather those asthetic ones.  Put me in the camp
    of one marginally in favor of keeping it.  Vincent would certainly
    rather abolish it.  That's also what he was saying.
    
    Dan

    >              -< Your argument relies  on a false twist >-
    >
    > Well it certainly was a victory for truth when it has been established
    > beyond a shadow of a doubt exactly why the DH was born: to cope with
    > the AL attendance lagging behind the NL attendance.  Any honest noter
    > will attest that this was my position for years, and MorT was in the
    > opposite camp, hurling invective at me for being right.
    
    I've already given you my honest assessment that I feel that the core
    of the argument from the beginning went much deeper than that; that not 
    only did the AL owners bring in the DH for business reasons but that it
    was a business success, temporary or otherwise.  (And you've given your
    honest assessment that I'm wrong in my honest assessment.)  However, I 
    continue to stubbornly assert that I've yet to see any evidence that 
    the DH ever was, is, will or would be such a success.
    
    I don't have much of a problem at all in having to hold my nose at much
    of anything Fay Vincent says or does, either.  He just happened to have
    gotten this one right, in deed if not in word...
    
    > That's what Vincent saw and stated.  I will concede that the DH is no
    > longer (OK, for years) a business necessity, or even a viable business
    > strategy.  If we were to get rid of the DH, we don't argue about it's
    > business effects, but rather those asthetic ones.  
    
    This is the point that keeps crawling back unexplained.  What possible
    positive business effect could the DH have had other than to increase 
    offense for presumably an offense-starved customer base?  How can we 
    assume this "problem" has gone away, or will never come back?  How can
    you look at today's game, on the field, and toss the DH to the sharks
    so easily?  Have you looked at NL batting averages again this year? 
    Most of the teams are again hitting under .250 and power is down.  
    
    The only possible explanation for a position that says the DH is no
    longer a viable business strategy, but used to be, is, like with Tab,
    that customer tastes have changed and become more discerning.  For the
    many who hated the DH with a passion from the very beginning, this is
    difficult to accept.  Baseball, after all, is baseball, not something
    as trendy as diet soft drinks.
    
    glenn
     

    >The only possible explanation for a position that says the DH is no
    >longer a viable business strategy, but used to be, is, like with Tab,
    >that customer tastes have changed and become more discerning.
    
    I put it in my last note, but didn't elaborate.  The marginal change in
    offensive production fostered by the DH caused a change in attendance. 
    As you and I pointed out, given the plethora of factors that can change
    attendance, we don't have a concrete figure.  Whatever the numbers are
    for that change, it's obvious that they don't match up with the
    popularity that baseball has achieved in the last decade or so.  The
    need for the marginal offensive change to relatively increase
    attendance has been removed by other exogenous factors.  It may even be
    true that in the current context, there will be no change or even a
    positive one from removing the DH.
    
    All I'm saying is that it is no longer a prominent, or even a secondary
    business strategy.  It is a question of asthetics.  The margins have
    changed form 1973 to 1991.  That's not surprising, considering all the
    other changes: attendance figures, salaries, TV money, coverage, etc.,
    etc., etc.  What you are finding inexplicable, Glenn, seems to me to be 
    inherently obvious.
    
    Dan
    

    If they can the DH, do they * any records or career milestones achieved
    with the aid of the DH?
    
    I say no - but think about it. Would Yaz have been able to stick around
    23 seasons and get his 3000 hits and 400 dingers?  Didn't Rod Carew
    DH a lot?  
    
    JD

    If they did it to Roger Maris, they sure as heck could do it to Yaz,
    Aaron and Carew.
    
    Rich
    

    Hear Hear Bob!!!!
    
    Well said.
    
    I concur that the (*) should be removed from Maris' HR mark. Never did
    understand it. 
    
    If it doesn't than perhaps any player who won a batting title in the NL
    whose home park has plastic grass should have an (*).
    
    It's time to recognize Maris for what he did. 
    
    Rich
    

          
    Where exactly can these "asterisks" be found?  That's what I never
    understood.  I know the commissioner at the time said that both records
    should be recognized, but I've yet to see a record book that is split
    into 154-game and 162-game, DH and non-DH, dead ball and live ball
    eras, etc.
    
    I've always just assumed that the application of "asterisks" was a
    subjective rather than an official thing, so that Lakers fans could 
    explain away injuries, Dean Smith fans excellent losses, and the
    like...
    
    glenn
    

Saw a couple of neat pieces over the weekend about DiMaggio's hitting 
streak.  They also included stuff on Ted Williams too.

Many people don't know it (it's not a hot topic like the Yankee Clipper's
streak) but in 1957, Ted Williams reached base safely 16 consecutive at
bats in a row.  That's a record, which, like the 56 game streak, will be
around for a long time....

'Saw

    But (I believe) Maris actually did it with five or so fewer plate
    appearances.
    
    On Ted, back then they didn't zero out sac flies.  Ted hit fourteen
    SFs during his .400 + season.  Under today's scoring rules Williams
    woulda batted .419!
    
    MrT

 Sport Magazine has an excellent article on Maris this month and trully
 points out what a travesty it is that he isn't in the HOF. On the * thing
 Frick was a close friend of Ruth's according do this article and that's
 why he came up with the ruling...

 Also fo note was Mantle had 54 HR that year and was on the shelf for the
 month of setember. They actually both had a chance to break the record..

 mike

    
    > But (I believe) Maris actually did it with five or so fewer plate
    > appearances.
    
    Maris had five *more* plate appearances than Ruth, I think.  Not many
    more, obviously.  But more importantly, Ruth was pitched around more
    and had 50 less at-bats, meaning he really had less opportunity to
    hit home runs.
    
    Almost everything about these arguments over records is nonsense, even
    beyond the 154- or 162-game stuff.  Maris holds the single-season
    record for home runs.  Fine.  Because of the smaller schedule and
    the way he was pitched to, Ruth obviously had the greatest single
    season for home run production.  The same thing goes with comparing
    Hank Aaron's career record with Ruth's.  Ruth was obviously the
    greatest home run hitter of all time.  But you don't need to demean the
    accomplishment of the records with "asterisks" when intelligent people 
    can see the records for themselves and interpret what they mean... 
    
    glenn
    

    I've said it before, but it's worth repeating.  During the '61 season,
    Maris was NEVER intentionally walked.  That's what happens when The
    Mick's on deck.
    
    Dan

    On Roger Maris, he accomplished his feat with incredible pressure on
    him.  Not only because he was chasing the immortal Babe, but because a
    lot of younger fans thought that Mantle should have been the one to
    break the record.  Too, I seriously doubt that the Babe had this type
    of pressure on him, as I don't believe that these types of records were
    held with such reverence during his playing career.  Certainly, not as
    much as they were for Maris, and now are for most, if not all, sports. 
    We are, as a nation, obsessed with "records".
    
    Finally, Mrs. Ruth, Babe's widow, was not what you'd call a good sport
    about it.  She was quite rude, to be frank.  Being a close friend to
    the commissioner, I'm sure she had an influence on the * crap.
    
    If I remember correctly, Maris physically suffered from the pressure,
    to the point where clumps of his hair actually fell out.  Yet, he did
    the job.  I can't believe that the HOF refuses to recognize a man who
    certainly has achieved "fame".  Perhaps they should change their name
    to something else, possibly the Hall Of Favorites.  This sure would be
    a more accurate title when addressing Roger Maris.  He wasn't even a
    favorite in NY, never mind the rest of the BB world.
    
    lEe

 Dan's bias towards Mick perfectly explains the crap that Roger put up with.
 Mick was the "chosen one" not Roger. The guy won back to back MVP's and was
 in 7 World Series over his career yet he doesn't qualify? Yet guys like
 Yaz hang on for humpty nine years and get in on the first ballot? Definately
 a travesty..

 mike

A quick question:

	Last night on the HBO Special "When It Was A Game", they talked
	about the Boston Braves.  (Gee, I just realized they were the
	NL team - oh well...)

	Anyway, can any of you Boston folks tell me where abouts they played?


thanks,
'Saw

    
    'Saw, they played in Boston.
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    
    If the Hall of Fame is for players who attained great "fame" (as the 
    name would imply), then Maris should be in.  If it's for players who
    attained true greatness, he should not.  It's the latter criterion
    which is embodied in both the Hall's rules and tradition, though.
    
    glenn
    

    'Saw, they played at Braves Field on Commonwealth Ave at the sight of
    what is now Nickerson Field - Boston University. 
    
    Rich
    

    Dan is really not exhibiting bias in his comments about Mantle. The
    fact that the Mick followed Maris in the lineup certainly enhanced
    Maris' chances. Don't forget that both men were chasing Ruth's record
    that year until Mantle went down in September to injury.
    
    As to the pressure put on Maris, I can attest to this. I spent the
    summer of '61 with my grandparents in Jamaica, Queens and Maris had an
    apartment 4 blocks away. Reporters camped out around his place 24 hours
    a day and hounded him mercilessly. The Daily News, which ole Grandpa
    read, was plastered with "M&M" news every day. Being a guy from middle
    America, I'm sure Maris was not used to this. Mantle had played in the
    Big Apple for close to 10 years already and, I'm sure, had learned to
    cope with the media hype by then.
    
    Rich
    

    Saw, if you've ever been to Nickerson Field, the concrete stands
    remaining there are the right field bleachers from Braves Field.  The 3
    dorms are roughly where the main grandstand was.  That little building
    behind the main stands housed the Braves ticket and administrative
    offices.
    
    When the Braves left they sold the stadium to Boston University.  A
    good chunk was taken when the Mass Pike was built.  The rest of the
    stadium was torn down to accomodate the building of the dorms, the Case
    Center and Walter Brown Arena.
    
    John

 Glenn, back to back MVP's solid offense and solid defense does mean true
 greatness in my book. The only knock I can see on Roger is he didn't
 over 300 every year. 

 Rich, ask Dan which player he liked better. He may contend that due to
 his just being a twinkle in Dad's eye he hasn't any real memories but
 I'll bet the stories his Dad told him favored the Mick. Plus I'm sure
 as a kid he read the Mickey Mantle story. I did, and I never can recall 
 seeing a book on Maris.

 mike

    Steve Palermo - AL Umpire, and Terrence Mann - ex Miami Dolphin, were
    shot in Dallas trying to thwart a mugging at a sports bar last Saturday
    night. Palermo had just worked the Rangers' game in Arlington. 
    
    Mann was rleased from the hospital after being treated for a gunshot
    wound to the neck. Palermo was shot in the back and his condition has
    been upgraded to satisfactory.
    
    Rich
    

    The Braves left Boston in 1952, I think, so I was too young to see them
    play there. I did see a football game there, pre Mass Pike, when BU
    played Syracuse. Damn but that right field porch was close.
    
    I read that the Braves drew less than 300,000 for the entire season
    in their last year in Boston. Kind of ironic, really. Weren't they in
    the WS in 1948? 
    
    Rich
    

    Mike - Mickey Mantle was a better fielder, better baserunner and more
    consistent hitter than Maris. I saw him play alot and he Williams,
    Mays, Musial and Aaron were something to behold (apologies to Snider
    and Matthews fans). Roger was good and deserves to be in the Hall but,
    "He Ain't No Mickey Mantle".
    
    Rich
    

    They won the National League pennant in 1948 and lost the World Series
    in 6 games to Cleveland.  It could have been a Commonwealth Avenue
    series that year except that the Sox lost a 1-game playoff to the
    Indians.
    
    I don't really know all that much about the Braves though I believe the
    Red Sox were better supported than they were.  The Red Sox always had a
    lot more money, especially under the Tom Yawkey ownership, while the
    Braves were a marginal case through the thirties and forties.  The fan
    support pendulum really swung toward the Red Sox in the forties and the
    Braves moving was only a matter of time.
    
    My dad used to belong to an organization called the "Knot Hole Gang"
    run by the Braves.  It was a youth group open to anybody (yes, even if
    they were from Chelsea) that allowed them admission to Braves Field for
    a very cheap price.
    
    John

                                                  
    Mike, Maris had one truly great year, another damn good one, and that's
    about it.  As a lefthanded pull-hitter in favorable Yankee Stadium, he
    hit over 40 home runs *once*.  He hit 275 homers lifetime.  There are
    many, many, many players over the history of baseball who enjoyed 
    such a very short period of excellence and similar or better career 
    stats who have not been given a second thought in the Hall of Fame 
    balloting.  On the other side, I can't think of *any* outfielders
    now in the Hall of Fame whose career accomplishments are so uninspiring.
    
    The only logical argument for Maris is founded on "fame", on the
    notoriety of that one season.  Let's put it this way:  if Maris had hit
    57-58 home runs that year, which would not have made him any less of a
    ballplayer over the course of his career, would he be more than an 
    afterthought in the annals of baseball history now? 
    
    glenn
    

    How 'bout ol' pock-face, the All-Star first basemain?  
    
    Least he ain't starting this year.   What's he batting, .196?  He's
    the ultimate example of what I like to call "gilt by association."
    
    He has absolutely no business on a_All-Star squad, yet there he's 
    been for the last several years.  He deserved it, what, maybe oncet.
    
    MrT

    I caint understand how McGwire made it either.  And why LaRussa didn't
    pick a real backup third baseman.   Paul Molitor hasn't played 3rd in
    years.   So he picks one of his boys - Harold Baines.  Edgar Martinez
    has basically the same numbers as Wade Boggs - yet no all star
    selection.  Stupid.
    
    I also don't think Ken Griffey Jr should be starting, and of course the
    fans voted Darryl Strawberry as a starter - even though he's hitting
    near the McGwire line and missed a bunch of time due to a boo-boo.
    
    JD

    Perhaps the biggest travesty in the All Stars this year is Sandy
    Alomar's selection as the starting AL catcher. This guy is putting up
    Rich Gedman numbers of 1989, yet he makes it on past accomplishments
    alone. 
    
    McGwire at least creates excitement went he comes to the plate with his
    height and potential to launch one. Alomar's claim to fame is his throw
    to 2nd while remaining in the crouch position. Hardly awe inspiring.
    
    Rich
     

    While many of the selections can be questioned, McGwire, Strawberry,
    and Sandy Alomar (now there's rookie fever/hype carried along too far)
    were the only real travesties on the part of the fans.  The McGwire
    situation has become a yearly joke considering the talent at the
    position.  But at least McGwire and the Strawman had the decency to 
    beg off with injuries even though both could have played.
    
    When you look at it over the long haul, the fans (except for maybe
    those Oakland McGwire/Steinbach/disabled-Canseco ballot-stuffers) 
    don't do nearly as bad a job of selecting starters over the years as is
    publicized, and certainly no worse than the coaches and managers used
    to do with their particular mix of ignorance of other teams and player
    politics.  I've got no problem with the fans voting for a player's
    performance over his past couple of years instead of over a couple of
    months time, unless the player was obviously injured and not even
    playing, or was clearly stinking it up from Opening Day.  There is a 
    time lag between the start of voting and the actual game, after all.
    
    I guess I'd probably go for that three-way split vote between fans,
    managers, and sportswriters, but for the most part I can enjoy the
    Griffeys and Rickey Hendersons who maybe shouldn't be there for this
    half-season but over time definitely are deserving.
    
    glenn
     

    Remember - fan votes in All-Star Games are always a travesty.  They are
    largely popularity contests, are based more on past performances than
    current performances, with an apparent 2-3 year skew on either end of
    the career (ie, not making it for 2-3 years after first becoming good
    enough to make it and then making it for 2-3 after no longer being good
    enough to make it) and with name recognition being a very important
    factor.
    
    That coupled with the requirement to have each team represented (which
    is why Paul Molitor made it) leaves me with the following formula for
    enjoying the game - short of ignoring it, enjoy it for the game itself
    and not necessarily who is in it.
    
    John

      FWIW, Darryl won't be playing tonite.  
    
      It's about time Joe Carter made it to an all-star game.  Should
    be a starter, no doubt.
    
      Baines at 3rd is a joke.    
    
    						 glen j.

    Baines was not chosen to play 3rd. Molitor was.
    
    Speaking of 3rd, Terry Pendleton richly deserves it this year over
    Chris Szabo.
    
    Rich
    

    LaRussa plays a lotta games with his backfill picks.  He doesn't 
    get along with Jose, arguably the best player alive, so based on
    his DL time he leaves him off!  If carryover effect is a criterion
    (and I think it is, 1/2 seasons do not a_All-Star make), then Jose
    is as deserving as anyone.
    
    But what about Scott Sanderson ahaid of Finley?  Has our animal-
    rights activist no shame?  Harold Baines?  
    
    MrT

    Does Maris *really* deserve to be in the Hall ? I mean, he was MVP
    twice in a row, and from 1959-63, he was a very productive offensive
    player. He was the best defensive RF in the AL, and a fine player.
    
    But offensively, his numbers we not much better than say, George
    Foster's (Maris played MUCH better defense) - would you put Foster in
    the HoF ?
    
    JMO,
    
    Doc

    Harold Baines is having a fantastic season. He deserves to go. I agree
    with most of the rest of the notes.
    
    Suggestion, increase the roster to 27-30 players (from 25), and drop
    the "every team" rule for representation. Basketball can't have the
    rule, football doesn't. Neither sport is hurt by it. 
    
    Oh yeah, keep the DH in *all* All-Star games ....
    
    Doc

    
    I don't think LaRussa hates Canseco.  I want to see Canseco, my kids
    want to see Canseco, the whole world wants to see Canseco (succeed or
    fall on his face, one or the other) so maybe it's politics and wrong, 
    but I think LaRussa's sending Jose a message, a brushback pitch to 
    the head, so to speak.  I don't think that it takes too much of a 
    stretch of the imagination to see that Jose needs a motivational kick 
    in the tail from time to time.
    
    > But what about Scott Sanderson ahaid of Finley?  Has our animal-
    > rights activist no shame?  Harold Baines?  
    
    Sanderson's on the team because they had to dredge up a Yankee, right?
    Finley hasn't pitched that well and has been tremendously lucky to come
    out of the first half with such a great record with his bloated 4.00+ 
    ERA.  Baines?  He's been great, but that's maybe one A's player too 
    many.  I'd have liked to have seen that young stud Frank Thomas myself,
    a relative unknown now but a sure-thing superstar of the future...
    
    Overall it's not a bad squad.
    
    glenn
      

>   Does Maris *really* deserve to be in the Hall ? I mean, he was MVP
>    twice in a row, and from 1959-63, he was a very productive offensive
>    player. He was the best defensive RF in the AL, and a fine player.
    
 
 Doc forget George Foster someone please explain to me why Yaz is in there
 and there and not Roger? Yaz hung on for 23 years to finally get 3000 hits
 and 400 homers. What other staTISTICAL catergory does he have to warrent his
 induction other than a triple crown??? 

 Or how about these pitchers with 300 wins and 270+ losses that get in?

 Marris only played 12 years if he could have played with the DH and hung on
 long enough he could have posted Yaz like numbers.

 If Dewey supposed to be a shoo-in then why not Roger?

 Rich never claimed that He was better than the Mick but if he had played on a
 different team and done the same things I thinks he's in...

 Glenn I'll just leave it will have to agree to disagree...

 mike

    Re: .213
    
    Yaz didn't hang on for 23 years to get his 400 HR's and 3000 hits. I
    believe he got those milestones in his 19th year.
    
    John

    
>    Yaz didn't hang on for 23 years to get his 400 HR's and 3000 hits. I
>    believe he got those milestones in his 19th year.
    
 
 could be I ain't no stat master and I don't play one in Sports but he
 certainly hung on longer than he should have to assure HOF creditial.

 mike

    Anyone else sick of Tim McCarver being the players' apologist
    everytime they make a boo-boo?  Sheet, these guys are supposed to be
    all-stars.
    
    Mark.

>    Anyone else sick of Tim McCarver being the players' apologist
 >   everytime they make a boo-boo?  Sheet, these guys are supposed to be
  >  all-stars.
    
  
 Why Mark? did he claim that Roger had a hangnail leading to that gopher
 ball?

 ;^)

mike

    No, but (I think) Felix Jose made a horrible throw to the plate on the
    4th run (SAC Fly) and McCarver claimed he had a lousy grip when it was
    obvious to everyone that he didn't know what to do with the ball when
    he caught it.  Likewise on a few other plays.
    
    Mark.

    re Yaz, in addition to his offensive totals he also had seven Gold
    Gloves.  

    As far as Dewey for the HOF, no, and Sean McDonough provided a good
    reason why during an O's-Sox game earlier this year.  In his 18(?) year
    career, Evans has only been selected to the All-Star team three times.
    If a player hasn't been consistently acknowledged as among the best of
    his peers, he certainly can't be listed among the best of all time.


    py

    re  <<< Note 4.209 by ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSY "Chris Knorr, RIP" >>>

    >>LaRussa plays a lotta games with his backfill picks.  He doesn't 
    >>get along with Jose, arguably the best player alive,
    
    Canseco arguably the best??? I'll list a bunch of guys I would rate
    ahead of him off the top of my haid:
    
    	Rickey and Dave Henderson
    	Dave Justice
    	Ken Griffey Jr
    	Roberto Kelley
    	Joe Carter
    	Tony Gwynn
    
    Jose "Can you see the fly ball" Canseco is the Dick Stuart of
    outfielders. Not a complete player. He stews in the dugout and
    clubhouse, can't judge a line drive or fly ball to save his life and,
    in my opinion, is not a team type of guy.
    
    Rich
    

    Agreed on both McCarver *and* Buck.  We kept hearing about these "great"
    heads-up plays Ryne Sandberg was making out there on defense, too, when
    he looked like he was drunk to me...
    
    Mike, get a grip on yourself.  *Other* than the Triple Crown season
    what did Yaz do?  First off, to baseball fans in the know, that season
    was better all-around than Maris' of 1961, even.  I bet Dan would even
    tell you that, if he was in a charitable mood.  He also won three
    batting titles  and came within an Alex Johnson sit-down strike of a
    fourth. Apparently you tuned in to what Yaz was doing in 1978 or
    something, long after his most productive years, which *were* more
    impressive than Maris'.
    
    As for Maris, he couldn't have hung on to run up stats because at the
    end he was completely finished.  They had to tell him to leave after he
    was traded to the NL.  In his last four seasons he hit a grand total of
    35 home runs, batting under .250 combined.  This is at the ages of
    30-34, supposedly a player's prime.  Does that sound like Hall of Fame
    material to you?  Again, argue for his admission to the Hall based on
    that short burst of fame, but don't flail away at other player's
    accomplishments when you don't have the facts to back it up.
    
    And no, neither Dwight Evans nor Jim Rice belong in the Hall of Fame,
    and most honest Red Sox fans will tell you that...
    
    glenn
    

    I cain't believe your list rated ahaid a Jose.Only two a those
    would appear on my "arguably" list, those being Rickey and Tony.
    The rest are fine players, some with a lot to prove yet.  Joe Carter
    is finally getting the credit (and situation) he deserved for slong.
    
    Many on your list have had only one season up ithe Best-o-spher,
    IMNSHO.
    
    Jose is a monster slugger, hits for good average, and steals bases 
    with near impunity.  If he weren't on such a great hitting team he'd
    run more.  His presence in the lineup greatly enhances those around 
    him.  Dave Henderson certainly improved when he joined that lineup.
    An"All-Star" 1B McGwire has no clue against good pitching but benefits
    from pitchers forced to throw at least some strikes thus allowing this
    "All-Star" opportunities to pursue his Gormanesque career.
    
    MrT

    
    T's right.  A couple of those guys have to perform for a few years to
    be compared with Canseco, and someone like Roberto Kelly shouldn't 
    even be mentioned in the same breath.
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn and T
    
    If Jose was a DH I'd call him the best DH in baseball. Yet, Jose plays
    in the field. THAT is where your argument ends and meets a fiery end.
    
    I could use reverse tactics on you ansd say that Mark Belanger was
    arguably the best shortstop ever. The guy was a lifetime .245 hitter
    but played the field brilliantly. However, I would say Aparicio,
    Rizzuto, Ozzie, Ripkin and Reese were head and shoulders above Belanger
    because they were/are complete ballplayers. 
    
    Roberto Kelly has more speed on the bases, has more range in the OF and
    can CATCH a fly ball. He is an Ellis Burks type hitter which ain't bad.
    
    Best Ballplayer, to me, translates to a whole package. Jose's HR's are
    no more spectacular than Frank Howard's, Dave Kingman's or Dick
    Stuart's. Sure, Jose can run the bases pretty durn good but does he do
    it any better than Bobby Bonds did? Compare his defense to Bonds. 
    ...................... Done? Yep, your right.. there IS no comparison.
    Jose Canseco, George Bell and Mike Greenwell in the same outfield would
    be a riot to watch. The Moe Larry and Curly of defensive baseball.
    
    Rich
    

 Glenn,  I grew up in this area I know all about Yaz's accomplishments
 and still think he's overrated. I wish I had the magazine with me so
 I could give you more on Maris but unfortunately it's at my summer
 place in MAine.

 I think Yaz belongs there no doubt about it but also think that
 Marris does to and not just because he hit 61 one year.

 mike

    I dunno, Mike - this could be a rat hole but I recall Yaz literally
    carrying the team on his back in '67. I would say that he was a legit
    All-Star from '66 through '73. He received alot of sympathy votes after
    that but do you recall his gutty performace in '75 when he took over in
    LF and played it brilliantly in the ALCS and then played so well in the
    series against the Reds?
    
    One does not "hang on" to get 3,000 hits and 400 HR's. As Ted Williams
    said, the hardest athletic feat is to hit a pitched ball with a bat.
    Jim Rice "hung on". Yaz was a legitimate threat till the day he
    retired.
    
    Somethimes familiarity breeds contempt. I found myself thinking that
    when Yaz made it into the HoF on the first ballot. I saw the guy so
    much, nothing he did seemed extraordinary. But, when you read and
    listen to what others from other parts of the country say about him,
    you begin to appreciate what he did.
    
    Sort of like Munson. I remember getting into it with Dan a few years
    ago about him - me downplaying Munson's accomplishments. But, when you
    put things into perspective and I was able to remove my own anti-Yankee
    prejudice from the analysis, Munson WAS the premier catcher of his era.
    
    Rich
    

    I'd take Kirby Puckett over the lot of 'em.
    
    Mark.

    I'd give a HoF vote to Munson.
    
    I remember an argument in my group at lunch. One guy said, "Fisk is the
    greatest of all time." This lady was a Yankee fan, and said Munson....
    the argument went to the verge of tears on teh aprt of the woman. Whew!
    
    Anyhow, Munson was the best in the AL when he played - kind of funny
    how Fisk couldn't even stay healthy back then - Munson could hit 3rd,
    4th or5th, was a clutch RBI man, and could shoot down a baserunner.
    
    Yeah, he gets a HoF vote from me. But not Maris.

    Re LaRussa-Canseco:
    
    Believe it or not, they do get along.  Tony understands Jose well, and
    sat him down to motivate him, not because he hates him.  And the way
    Jose played in the last week before the break, it looked like a smart
    move.
    
    Bruce 

    Story in today's local paper citing LaRussa as the major reason the AL
    has won 4 All Star games in a row. Pointed out that Reardon was lifted
    for Aguilara because Aguilara had a better move to first. Explained why
    he pinch hit for Ripken with Guillen. LaRussa felt that he didn't need
    Ripken to hit into a DP. Guillen hit the first sacrifice bunt in years
    in an AS game and the 4th run was scored.
    
    Joe Carter says the man (LaRussa) comes to win first, have fun second.
    Players respond well to LaRussa, claims Carter. 
    
    Well, 3 straight WS appearances and 3 straight AS wins must account for
    something.
    
    Rich
    

    It's hard to knock success, alright.
    
    lEe

    I've been watching the White Sox quite a bit since we got the
    new sat. dish (ahhhh).  The game against Texas last night was
    great!  Both teams were coming up with ralleys throughout the
    game.  It was 8-6 Texas with the Sox coming up to bat in the
    bottom of the 9th.  They managed to get 3 men on but had 2 outs
    with Robin Ventura coming up.  Seems like he had 2 strikes on
    him too but Ventura clobbered one deep into the right field
    seats to win it 10-8.  This was his 2nd homer of the game and
    12th of the month of July.
    
    Cowboy
    
    

    Speaking of the White Sox, what was Bill Murray (a dieheard Cubs fan
    and at one time part owner of a Cubs' farm team) doing on the South
    Side of Chicago last night?  
    
    
    py

    
    	Saberhagen tossed a not hitter lasted(tm) night against
    	the White Sox.  Our local rag reported a line drive hit
    	to a diving Kirk Gibson in LF glanced off his mit.  It
    	was ruled an error.  I didn't see the play.
    
    	Claybone

    > 	Saberhagen tossed a not hitter lasted(tm) night against
    > 	the White Sox.  Our local rag reported a line drive hit
    >	to a diving Kirk Gibson in LF glanced off his mit.  It
    >	was ruled an error.  I didn't see the play.
    
    >	Claybone
    
    
    There wasn't any "dive" to it.  And I wouldn't call it a line
    drive neither.  Gibson ran to the wall but didn't quite get
    to it.  The ball hit the top of his glove, then the ground.
    He coulda ketched it if he'd positioned hisself quicker.  
    
    Hey!! What's happened to the Sox anyway?!?
    
    Cowboy
    

    Can anyone tell me if the Orioles are at home September 9,10, or 11?
    
    	--dan'l (headed to Landover)

    Dan'l -
    
    Remember:
    
    Home is where the heart is.
    
    HTH
    
    JD

    Yankees are in town all 3 nights.  Kansas City is there right before
    and Cleveland is there right after.
    
    You're welcome,
    
    John

    Can a Baseball Guru answer this question for me?
    
    Lasted night Chicago's Frank Thomas got hit in the left hiney cheek
    by the pitcher.  He kept his cool, BTW.  Didn't charge the mound
    like alota dinks do.  On the nexted pitch or so he clobbered a
    deep homerun.  This musta really tweaked the pitcher's beak.
    
    The announcers didn't mention why Thomas didn't/couldn't go to
    1st base after he was hit.  The rule does state that the batter
    cain't try to get hit--which Thomas obviously didn't do.  The
    ball was so far from the plate that he would have had to step
    forward, towards the plate, to avoid the pitch, but he didn't
    have time to react.  The only reaction he had was to maybe
    sway back abit but then he stopped, probably realizing he
    wouldn't avoid the pitch going that way.
    
    Hey, what gives? 
    
    Cowboy
    

Sure.  From the Official Baseball Rulebook, Section 4.9.2.3

4.9.2.3  Batter hit by pitch

A batter who is hit by the pitch on the ass may at his discretion hit a deep
home run on the next pitch.

j.

    
    The rule is that you need to try to get out of the way of the pitch, so
    if you just stand there and get hit, you don't get first. This rule
    should be called more often, but few umpires have the gonads to use it. 
    
    Dennis
    

    Thanks, in Thomas' case it wouldn't seem fair, tho'.
    It looked like his first instinct was to move back but then
    realized he had moved directly in line with the ball.  By
    then it was too late to move.

    Roger Maris is now the official holder of the season record for most
    homeruns.  Fay Vincent has seen fit to remove the asterisk from Maris'
    achievement.

    Yeah, and Harvey Haddix is no longer being credited with a no-hitter.
    
    Rich
    

    To be a no-hitter it must now go at least 9 innings and end as a
    no-hitter.  About 50 no-hitters have been removed from the books - all
    no-hitters of less than 9 innings and any game that was a no-hitter
    after 9 innings that didn't end up being one.
    
    John

    It doesn't affect Nolan Ryan at all.  None of his were any less than 9
    innings and none ever went more, either.
    
    I'll look up the affected no-hitters tonight and post it tomorrow.
    
    John

One no hitter from this year was affected - an Expo threw a 9 inning
no hitter and then gave up a hit and lost the game in the 10th.

It was the same weekend as Martinez's perfect game.

I assume the change also disallows less than 9 inning perfect games
(I think David Palmer threw one a few years ago).

Mike

    Hawk -
    
    Since my birth in 1959, these no-hitters are no longer no-hitters-
    
    7/26/91 - Mark Gardner, MTL at LA (9 innings)
    6/14/65 - Jim Maloney, Cincy vs. Mets (10 innings)
    5/26/59 - Harvey Haddix, Pitt at Milwaukee (12 Innings Perfect)
    
    Those are all games that were no-hitters through 9, but the pitcher
    gave up a hit in extra innings.
    
    The following are complete game no-hitters, but less than 9 innings,
    since 1959.
    
    7/1/90 - ANdy Hawkins, Yankees vs ChiSox (8 innings)
    7/12/90 - Melido Perez, ChiSox vs. Yankees (6 innings)
    9/24/88 - Pascal Perez, Montreal at Phill (5 innings)
    8/24/84 - Dave Palmer, Montreal at St. Louis (5 Perfect)
    8/6/67 - Dean Chance, Minny vs. BoSox (5 perfect)
    9/26/59 - Sam Jones, San Fran vs. St. Louis (7 innings)
    6/12/59 - Mike McCormik, San Fran vs. Philly (5 innings)
    
    I think the less than 9 inning games should count - they are, by rule,
    official games - all stats count.  The extra inning games don't
    register stats for first 9 innings, and then subsequent innings, so I
    have no problems with them.
    
    Montreal loses 3 no-hitters!
    
    Basically, though, I agree with Hawk, don't make it retroactive!
    
    JD

 Hey, no problem ... just put an asterisk next to 'em.   :-) :-)

 The 5-inning jobs should still count as no-hitters since they were
 legal games played and concluded under the rules in effect at the
 time.    They should be in a special category, though, since they're
 not as "impressive" as full 9-inning jobs.

 I have no problem with erasing the extra-inning no-hitters from the
 books.  They weren't no-hitters to begin with since the opposing
 team's *final* hit tally for the entire game didn't say "0".   And
 Harvey Haddix needn't worry about his fame.  His perfect 12 innings
 will always be one of the most amazing games ever played.

 Bob Hunt

    There are 12 games that were no-hitters through 9 innings but didn't
    finish as no-hitters that have been erased.  Interestingly, all but one
    of them ended up as losses for the pitcher who ended up giving up the
    hit.  Even more interestingly, a no-hitter on May 2, 1917 which was won
    by Cincinnati over the Cubs 1-0 was a no-hitter for Cincinnati pitcher
    Fred Toney while Cubs pitcher Hippo Vaughn gave up his first hit in the
    10th.  So, the only double no-hitter I could see in the book I used
    (Total Baseball) is off the books.  There were 4 of these in the decade
    between 1900-09, 3 between 1910-19, none in the twenties, 1 in the
    thirties (Sept 18, 1934, Bobo Newsome lost for the St Louis Browns to
    Boston 2-1 after having a no hitter through 10), none in the forties, 2
    in the fifties (the Harvey Haddix game being one of them, the other
    being a combination no-hitter for Cincinnati vs Milwaukee - Johnny
    Klippstein, Herschel Freemand and Joe Black, and it was 4 years to the
    day before Haddix' game), 1 in the sixties (the Jim Maloney game
    mentioned by JD) and no others until Mark Gardner this year.  There are
    now 5 no-hitters of longer than 9 innings that are officially
    recognized.
    
    There are 38 short games that are no longer recognized as no-hitters. 
    8 of these took place from 1880-89, 6 from 1890-99, 11 from 1900-09, 3
    in 1910 (including what appears to be Walter Johnson's only career
    no-hitter, a 7-inning, 2-0 win over St Louis on 8/25/10), 1 in 1937, 2
    in the forties, 2 in 1959, 1 in 1967, 2 in the eighties and 2 in the
    nineties.
    
    John 

    Bo is back.  He didn't look too sharp in his debut against his former
    teammates earlier this week, but he did get a RBI nonetheless.  Lasted
    night he went something like 3-4 with 3 more RBIies.

    
    Who cares?  Until Vincent brought the Maris business up again, nobody
    paid any attention to what the "official" rulings were anyway. 
    People remember what they saw and read about, not what some group
    of geeks decided should or should not be noteworthy...
    
    glenn
    

    The person who really gets ripped off on this one is Andy Hawkins.  His
    no hitter was only 8 innings because his team was losing the game and
    he didn't have to pitch the ninth.

    Saw one of the last games ever to be played in Baltimore's Memorial
    Stadium last night.  Beauty of a park.  Shame it's going away.  BTW,
    thanks to Mr. Hendry for the info on the O's schedule.
    
    Got two seats from a season ticket holder trying to unload a handful
    for half price.  We were right behind the plate!  It certainly wasn't a
    pitcher's duel at 6-3 (O's over the Yanks) and lasting almost four
    hours, but it did have its highlights:
    
    	- got to see a suicide squeeze perfectly executed.  Had great
    	  seats for that.
    	- back to back homers
    	- Fay Vincent (who didn't stand for the 7th inning stretch) 
    	- a triple play (OK, that was on diamond vision)
    	- nice titles two seats over from me
    
    Glad I got to see a game in that park before it's gone.
    
    	--dan'l

    Are they tearing down Memorial Stadium after this season? It isn't that
    old ('50s), is it? Seems there's a lot worse parks, but... What kind of
    impact would this have on Baltomore trying to get another NFL team, or
    would they have to build some bogus dome with 75,000 seats to even be 
    considered? Didn't U of Maryland play a coupe of football gams there a
    few years ago?
    
    Tom

    And maybe, just maybe, dan'l, you got to see the great Cal Ripken hit
    his last home run in Memorial Stadium (although I hope not).  I'm still
    contemplating taking the trip down and scalping my way in for the final
    weekend.  It's not a great park, but it's better than most of the
    modern ones, and I've spent enough time there that I should properly
    say goodbye (no MrT "prank" here...)
    
    glenn
    

    They plan to keep it up in case they have an NFL team, and then will
    build a new football stadium if they get one...

    re .256:
    
    The Universty of Maryland played Clemson at Memorial Stadium last
    September.
    
    
    py

Got this from Desperado also.  These "rules" seem to make a ton of sense
to me:


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
 DESPERADO,  It's just a hole in the wall!

CONTRIBUTIONS TO CLOSET::T_PARMENTER
[t_parmenter@closet.enet.dec.com]
SUBSCRIPTION REQUESTS TO COVERT::DESPERADO-REQUEST
[desperado-request@covert.enet.dec.com]
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Not an official publication.  Forward with daring and whimsy.  Circle the earth.
Should you rip something off from here,  be a sport and rip this header off too.
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||


From:	TLE::STERN        "Grub first, then ethics"  
To:	RAGMOP::T_PARMENTER
Subj:	Veeck's Rules

The following list of Bill Veeck's 12 commandments appeared in the
Boston Globe.  They may be relevant outside baseball.

1.  Take your work very seriously.  Go for broke and give it your all.

2.  Never ever take yourself seriously.

3.  Find yourself an alter ego and bond with him for the rest of your
    professional life.  [I dunno what this means, either.--grs]

4.  Surround yourself with similarly dedicated soulmates, free spirits of
    whom you can ask why and why not.  And who can ask the same thing of you.

5.  In your hiring, be color-blind, gender-blnd, age- and experience-blind.
    You never work for Bill Veeck.  You work with him.

6.  If you're a president, owner, or operator, attend every home game and
    you never leave until the last out.

7.  Answer all your mail; you might learn something.

8.  Listen and be available to your fans.

9.  Enjoy and respect the members of the media, the stimulation and the
    challenge.  The "them against us" mentality should exist only between
    the two teams on the field.

10. Create an aura in your city.  Make people understand that unless they
    come to the ballpark, they will miss something.

11. If you don't think a promotion is fun, don't do it.  Never insult your fans.

12. Don't miss the essence of what is happening at the moment. Let it
    happen.  Cherish the moment and commit it to your memory.
__________
*   For the unlettered, Bill Veeck was a baseball team owner---the
    Cleveland Indians (in better days) and Chicago White Sox.  He is
    famous for, among other things, getting Satchel Paige into the
    majors, exploding score boards, and sending a midget up to bat.

				    =*=				    

    Veeck was a baseball man.  He put the game ahead of business, unlike
    most, if not all, of today's owners.
    
    I've read a number of articles on him over the years.  He loved the
    game, period.  He went against the establishment when he thought they
    were wrong, or out of step.  Some of them hated him for it.  I always
    thought he was more than just good for the game.  We sure could use
    more men like him today.
    
    lEe

    Denny, why do you consider these games to be the biggest for the
    Tigers?
    
    Hell, they were supposed to be in the cellar this year.  While the AL
    East is weak, at least the Tigers aren't the worst of the bunch.
    
    Lee

       They're big for the reason Sparky mentioned. They caint lose any
    more games. They've gotta win. As bad as they were expected to be, I'm
    sure they thought they had a chance when they moved into 2nd place
    recently. There're are a lot of talented players on that team, I
    wouldn't say they're a last place team at all. JMO
                                   Denny

    Denny, I LOVE Sparky, but I take anything he says with a HUGE grain of
    salt!  :*)
    
    All games are big, cause any loss ends up in that column.  It's the one
    you can't reduce, no matter what you do.  You can increase in the win
    column, but the number of lost games is what I look at when comparing
    my team to another.
    
    Gullickson has been a tremendous surprise for us.  Mainly because
    pitching was supposed to be the biggest chink in the armor.  It still
    is, but nowhere as much as was expected.  Leiter has helped much more
    than expected, too.  
    
    Anyway, this season has been fun for me, regardless of where the team
    finishes.  Naturally, I'd love to have them win the division, but I'm
    satisfied that they've played exciting ball.  I do hope that Trammell
    and Whitaker get one more shot at a WS before calling it quits.
    
    Losing to Cleveland hurts, but a realistic evaluation of the Tigers
    tells me that we are fortunate that they are this close at such a late
    date in the season.  I had hoped that Toronto would fall while playing
    the west, and that Detroit would make up some ground, but it hasn't
    been the case yet.  But, there's still tomorrow!  (Not many left, I
    grant you, but a couple to pin my hopes on!)  :*) 
    
    lEe

    Wow, two of my all-time favorite teams are fighting for the pennant!
    Go Twins, Go Jays!!!111   
    
    MY Twins are up 1 game over MY Jays, 5-4!  
    
    Same thing in the NL, MY Bucs and MY Braves!  What a lucky guy I
    am!!!111 
    
    The Bucs and Twins and Jays and Braves have always been part of my
    favorite teams!
    
    I can't lose.  :*)
    
    LeeVane,_filling_in_for_Wardlevane

    >Go Blue Jays, Beat the Twins!!
    
    HAAA HA HA HA HEEEE HOOO HO HO HAA.
    
    MrT

    	Hey MorT, are they really charging $1.00 for those effeminate
    "Homer Hankies"?  Like P.T. Barnum said...  The Blue Jays will win
    today and even up the series heading into the TorontoDome.
    
    				/Pinko

    re .271:
    
    Yes, Homer Hankies go for a buck a pop, but proceeds go to some charity
    (I think it's the United Way).
    
    If it ends up a Twins-Pirates series, perhaps Pittsburgh will counter
    by resurrecting the Green Weenie?  :-)
    
    
    py

    Homer Hankies;
    
    Actually, 45 cents goes to the newspaper, 45 cents to the Twins, and 10
    cents to the United Way.
    
    HTH
    
    JD

    
    
    What are the pitching matchups for this afternoons game?
    
    
    steve

    Guzman(10-3) .vs. Tapani(16-9)
    
    
    JaKe
    

    First the Yanks, then the Sox, now the Brewers.  There will be alot of
    new faces in AL East dugouts next season.

    
    >>>Go Blue Jays, Beat the Twins!!
    
    >>HAAA HA HA HA HEEEE HOOO HO HO HAA.
    
    >>MrT
    
    Hey "T",
    
    Don't you mean to say:
    
    Eeeeee, Eeeeee, Eeeeee!!
    
    The pitcher(and that is an overstatement) for the Blu Jays
    lasted night, who was it, Candyauto, couldn't have made it 5 innings
    .vs. a little league team with the junk he was throwing lasted night.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Trebhorn got canned?

    I know that the Mil GM got canned and replace by Bando....
    I didn't hear that any decision about treblhorn was final yet...
    
    REK

    Dumb attack.  Treblehorn is the M's manager.  According to that same
    report, he still has his job.

    Daulton got promotes to VP of something or another, I thought. That
    created the opening for Bando. Hmmmmm.... now that I think about it,
    that's alot like DEC.
    

From: clarinews@clarinet.com
Subject: Brewers fired Trebelhorn
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 91 12:45:18 EDT
 
	MILWAUKEE (UPI) -- Tom Trebelhorn was fired as manager of the
Milwaukee Brewers Wednesday by new general manager Sal Bando.
	Trebelhorn was the third major-league manager fired since the season
ended Sunday, and 11 of the 26 managers who began the season have been
dismissed. The Brewers finished fourth in the AL East at 83-79.
	The move is part of a management shakeup started Tuesday when Bando
replaced Harry Dalton as GM. The Brewers were 422-297 since Trebelhorn
took over as Milwaukee's manager with nine games left in 1986. Their
best finish was third place in 1987, a season that began with 13
victories. Milwaukee was 91-71 that year. The Brewers had just one sub-.
500 season under Trebelhorn.
	There has been speculation Bando would replace Trebelhorn with his
friend and former Oakland teammate Gene Tenace. Tenace is a Toronto
coach who filled in as manager for several weeks this season when Cito
Gaston was out with a back problem.
	Trebelhorn had met with Brewers Prsident Bud Selig on Monday.
Afterward, Trebelhorn and said it was simply an informational discussion
about the organization.
	Brewers officials have been concerned with the team's dwindling
attendance at a time they are trying to get the city of Milwaukee to
build a new stadium. They drew less than 1.5 million this season for
their lowest attandance in six years.
	All three managers fired this week were by AL East teams. The New
York Yankees fired Stump Merrill Monday and Boston fired Joe Morgan
Tuesday.

    OK REK, stop trying to confuse me.

    The Jays are up 3-1 in the 5th inning...
    
    JD

    Jays up 5-2 in the top of the 8th.
    
    Henk pitching for Jays, Guthrie for the Twins.
    
    JD

    Jays win 5-2, even series at 1-1
    
    Guzman the win, Tapani the loss.
    
    Henke gets a Hold, while Ward gets the save - he struck out 4 of the 7
    batters he faced.
    
    Steve Bedrosian relieved Tapani and did nothing, then Guthrie.
    
    JD

    WHich job is more secure.. A DEC salemsman or a big league manager?
    
    REK

>    WHich job is more secure.. A DEC salemsman or a big league manager?



News Flash:

	The Milwaukee Brewers just announced hiring MrT as their
	manager for nexted season!

    News flash -- Toronto, Detroit, Baltimore, and Cleveland have not fired
    their manager since the end of the regular season.
    
    
    py

    HEY MR. "T":::::
    
    I saw in the ::BASEBALL notesfile that Minny-sodaians were able to walk
    up to the ticket offices and get tickets for the playoffs ON THE DAY OF
    THE GAME!!!!  
    
    Whassamatter, can't the Twinkies sell out the Metronome????
    
    People(and I use that term loosely) too concerned with the rise in the
    price of Brie, and beemers??????Can't afford baseball?????
    
    BTW "T", the Bucs set an attendance record for a game at 3 Rivers
    lasted night!!!
    
    
    JaKe
    

    RaKe, that's what I love about ya, you never let the facks git in the
    way of some good old-time self-humuliation:
    
    >I saw in the ::BASEBALL notesfile that Minny-sodaians were ble to
    >walk up to the ticket offices and get tickets for the playoffs ON THE
    >DAY OF THE GAME!!!!
    
    
    All tickets for the ALCS and World Series (if necessary) were sold out
    three weeks ago by electronic raffle, with the bulk of the available
    seats going to season ticket holders.  Meanwhile, 17 arrests were made
    of scalplers outside the Dome before game 1, which had been completely
    sold out for weeks.
    
    MrT

    >>                 Go Twins, Beat the Blue Jays !!
    
    > HAAA HA HA HA HEEEE HOOO HO HO HAA.
    >
    >/Don
    
    Hey buddy, one measly win does not a_ALCS victory and World Series
    appearance make.  Show some class.  Show some Americanism.  A little
    Patriotism wouldn't look so bad on you either.
    
    MrT(wins) 
                                                   

Wrong-O T-bone.....


  Our very own noter Spud got tickets to last nights game a few days ago by 
going down to the box office. 20 Rows in back of home plate I believe. Granted
they were single seats only and they were mis-matched season ticket holder seats
but they were tickets nonetheless.....

In Atlanta they've been sleeping out for 2 nights to get such seats.....

Atlanta bandwagon fans are better bandwagon fans than Minny ones.....

  Metz

    >once again T is wrong
    
    So sorry Metz, but it is YOU who is wrong (again).  Each and
    every FACK reported by MrT in my notes was absolutely correct.
    Best as I cain figure Spud played it smart and copped a throw
    back ticket that a lottery winner wasn't able to use.
    
    As I said: All the games are completely sold out.  The only empty
    seats in the house were those confiscated from the scalpers who
    got busted outside the Dome in the first two games.  They were out
    there scalping cuz... the games are sold out.
    
    MrT

    Hey "T"
    
    HTF can a game be "sold out" if someone can walk up to the "ticket
    office" and buy a ticket.  If'n ya cain buy the ticket from the stadium
    ticket office, not a scalper, the game isn't officially "sold out".
    
    This is what happened lasted year in Pittsburgh but they didn't
    publicize that there were tickets available, therefore, the empty
    seats.
    
    You're wrong and won't admit it.
    Nothing new there.
    
    Metz,
    
    thanks for the corroboration.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    RaKe, I'd luv to admit I was wrong on this, but I just cain't:
    
    * The games were sold out.  Full house.
    
    * Your Pittsburgh comparison is mistaken.  3,000 empty NLCS seats!
    
    * The Twins announced that they had tens of thousands more applicants
      than seats, cut off applications, doled out to season ticket holders
      via lottery for seat locations, and the remainder of the tickets
      for non-season ticket holders, and cut off applications after a 
      deadline.
    
    Nobody wants to say he's wrong more than MrT.  I only wish it were
    possible here...
    
    MrT

Jake,


T's fishing in his own river again....


Metz

    "T"
    
    Go wait in the truck with the rest of the manure.
    
    
    >>* Your Pittsburgh comparison is mistaken.  3,000 empty NLCS seats!
    
    Steve Greenberg painted a similar scenario lasted year as you paint
    on why there were tickets left over.  The difference, the Bucs
    marketing dept failed to announce that there were ANY tickets left for
    what were previously announced as "sold out" games.
    
    >>* The games were sold out.  Full house.
    
    So they were, at game time.   If the ticket office had tickets in their
    possession for the games, then in no way were the games "sell-outs"
    until the lasted ticket was sold.  No way, no form, no how.  It doesn't
    matter what the Twinkies announced.   Using your logic, the Twinkies
    could have sold only 3000 tickets, announced a sellout, and therefore
    the games were sellouts long before gametime.  Get real.
    
    The Bucs sold out lasted night, and will for the rest of the playoffs.
    (which hopefully will only be tonites game in Pittsburgh, then 2 more
    Bucco wins in Atlanta).  
    
    Also, the Bucs waited until almost the third week of September lasted
    year to even put tickets on sale, and had some problems with their
    distribution system, also.
    
    JaKe
    
    

    
>>Jake,


>>T's fishing in his own river again....


>>Metz
    
    Metz:
    
    I think "T" has been drinking too much of the water downstream of the
    chemical plant and sewage plant!!!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

Correction:

                  -< Oh Canada.  Our home and native land, eh... >-
                                                           ^^
    

                                               
    JaKe, MrT's right.  The games in Minnesota *were* sold out in advance
    (in *any* stadium, for *any* game, there are always returns and a 
    chance to get lucky at walking up and buying a ticket).  When it comes 
    to jumping on a postseason bandwagon for a chance to make a lot of 
    noise in the most foolish of ways possible, no one is better than 
    Minnesotans.  They're masters at the art.  Otherwise, they stay away 
    in droves, complaining about mismanagement of the team, the Metrodome, 
    ticket prices, etc. (witness last year's 20th place finish in MLB 
    attendance).  I'm sure even MrT is man enough to admit that what I'm
    saying is true.
    
    It's no secret that Pittsburghers don't do a great job of supporting
    the Pirates, for whatever reason, but at least they ain't frontrunning
    hypocrites about it.  The people who support the team in the tough
    times are the ones who support them in the good, with a minimum of 
    wardlevaning and gimickry in the postseason.
    
    glenn
    

    >I'm sure even MrT is man enough to admit that what I'm saying is
    >true.
    
    Not quite, Waugamain: It's a given that a last place team's attendance
    is gonna suffer.  But the comparison of Twins fans to Stars fans
    doesn't work.  The Stars' attendance had fallen off precipitously when
    the infamous Gund brothers intentionally destroyed the team and did 
    everything possible to drive down enthusiasm, attendance, etc. as a way
    to force Herr Ziegler to approve the wierdest expansion deal in the 
    history of sports.  This happened cuz the Gunds wanted to move the Stars
    to a larger market and until the Gunds forced his hand Ziggy wouldn't
    allow it.
    
    As for the Twins, there's no doubt in my mind that what might be called
    "underlying attendance" suffers from being in that geeky dome.  The
    weather up here is beautiful during the summer, lots a sun and the least
    humidity in the midwest.  There are tens of thousands of baseball fans
    like who prefer to stay outdoors rather than go into that echo chamber,
    and attend maybe one game a year (usually for biz or family reasons) 
    whether or not the Twins are in last or first.  
    
    I'd say that the Twins are losing 5-10,000 per game on their average 
    being inside.  Baseball is a_aesthetic game and should only be played
    outdoors on grass (it is best watched outdoors on grass too).  This
    must be accounted for when sneering at us Minnesotans.
    
    MrT

    Roachibaud, you may be a Frenchy by blood but you keep this crap up
    and I'll have you in the docket before the HUAC (Human Unamericain 
    Affinity Committee) for Treason.  And anyway, if your forebears came
    from up Quebec way I'd think you wouldn't be rooting for a_Ontario
    squad.
    
    re: RaKe
    
    Lemme get this straight: You say that all tickets must be sold for
    a game to be a sellout.  You concede that all the tickets for the
    Twins games were sold, but that the games were not sellouts.  Hmmm.
    
    Btw, the tix that Spud bought are called "throwbacks," and come into
    the ticket office after lottery winners have failed to pay for their
    allotment.  If what you're saying happened in Pittsburgh last year is
    true (reeks a excuse-making to me, though) then the differentiation
    between here and there is that Minnesota fans are motivated enough to
    seek out those few tickets that were available.  And this unfavorable
    comparison for Pittsburgh is too kind, where the Twins mighta had a
    hundred or so throwbacks the squalid Pittsburgeoisie had 3,000 or more!
    
    Merci.
    
    MrT

    Hey, I think it's a *plus* that Pittsburgh didn't sell out.  Wish it
    would happen more often.
    
    The price-gouging that takes place during the playoffs is outrageous. 
    40 clams per seat, and the only way you could buy 'em here was for both
    the Championship and World Series combined.  
    
    That's a mighty big hunk_a change for a lowly Digital Software
    Specialist to lay out, let alone the average blue-collar worker in
    Pittsburgh.
    
    What absolutely *keels* me though is the media propaganda perpetrated
    on us poor dumb viewers.  CBS has been jamming it down our throats
    about the record Pittsburgh crowds, never bothering to mention that the
    stinkin' game isn't even a sellout!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Call me a Comm'nist Anti-Mercan, but I gotta support the Jays in this
    series. Maybe trigger-shy Loo Gorman could learn something (Yeah, right)
    The Jays radically altered the core of their team in making a big
    trade over the winter. They gave up a lot of run production in return
    for speed and defense. The Jays are a better team than they were lasted
    year for it.
    
    It took some guts to make a trade like that -- too bad there aren't too
    many GMs who have those kind of guts.
    
    BTW, the correct spelling of the Blue Jays home country is
    C,eh,N,eh,D,eh?
    
    Tom

    "T"  
    technically, they weren't "ADVANCE" sellouts.
    By gametime, they were, evidently.
    
    The games in 3 Rivers the lasted two days were "sellouts".
    3 Rivers holds between 58k and 59k.  The attendance differential is due
    to no-shows.
    
    Isn't there a difference between the way the A(lmost)League counts
    attendance and the way the National League counts???
    
    I seem to remember that the AL counts tickets sold whilst the National
    League counts actual numbers in the ballpark.
    
    Re Pgh and lasted year.  When the Pirates first put the tickets up for
    sale, they were package deals, only.  SWomething like $250-$300 a pop.
    They waited till awful late to put ANY single tickets on sale, and at
    the 11th hour, discovered the returns (~3,000) and ended up with egg on
    their face.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Ok, RaKe, NOW I git it: If at point between the time the tickets 
    go on sale and the event starts there are tickets available it is
    not a sellout. 
    
    This of course means that there never has been a sellout in the 
    history of sport, you're the "technician" so you're right and I'm
    wrong.
    
    MrT

    
    >>>>* The games were sold out.  Full house.
    
    >>So they were, at game time.   If the ticket office had tickets in their
    >>possession for the games, then in no way were the games "sell-outs"
    >>until the lasted ticket was sold.  No way, no form, no how.  It doesn't
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    "T" 
    
    I never said the games "weren't sellouts" period.  I just said
    advanced.
    
    You are truly the Chubbie Checker of ::SPORTS_91, twisting everything
    you get your hands on.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    re .311
    
    Oui, bien sur, les <<Oiseaux-Bleus>>* sonT magnifique, alors, meilleur que 
    les <<Chausettes-Rouges>>*
    
    Free subscription to "Carolina Blew" to anyone who can figger out what
    that meant... 
    
    
    
    Actually they don't translate the names literally, other than plurals
    like "Cardinaux" and "Royaux"
    

    	You're saying the Blue Jays are better than the Red Sox, but
    we new that.  Now how's about the $37.00 so's I cain get my Carolina
    Blue?
    
    				ACC/Don

    
    HAY YOU TWO GUYS INN THE LASTED NOTES!!111  IF YU WNAT TO RITE IN THIS
    FILY WHY DONT YU LERN TU SPEEK THE LANGWAGE GOOD SO POEPLE CAN
    UNDSTAND!!!!11111
    

    The Fat Lady sang last night, and the Jays didn't like the tune.
    
    Twins await the Bucs/Braves winner.
    
    Kirby Puckett voted the MVP of the playoffs.
    
    Lee

    
    Serves the Jays right for loading up on Ex-Indians..   Disgruntled ones
    at that!  
    
    /Jeff

    Twins over whoever wins the NLCS in six games tops.  Advantage
    Minnesota in bullpen, defense (slight edge over Bucs, definite edge
    over Braves), and a batting order with no weak spots (Mack,
    Pagliarulo/Leius, and Gagne as good a 7-8-9 as you'll find in
    baseball).
    
    
    py

    Here we have a team picked to win or at least place 2nd in the AL East
    losing the ALCS in 5 games to a team most picked to finish dead last in
    the AL West.  Who would have thought Mike Pagliarulo would outplay
    Kelly Gruber?  What's with Gruber's defense in "big games"?  In 1990 he
    committed key errors in the Boston/Toronto series that helped enable
    the Sox to win the AL East.  He didn't look too impressive in the
    second Jay/Sox series in 1991.  As of Friday he had committed 3 errors
    in the ALCS.  Who would have thought Toronto wouldn't be able to win a
    game at the SkyDome?  

    >             -< Will the Jays wear the Choke Label again? >-
    
    No.  This time around, they got beat by a better team.
    
    
    py

    If the AL East is the weakest division, then it shouldn't surprise
    anyone that the team that had a real problem winning it would lose to
    the top team in the West.
    
    Lee

    What were those things the Jays fans were whipping around?  Did they
    actually have the nerve to put up their own homer hankie?

    >Go Blue Jays, beat the Twins!!
    
    HAAAH HAAA HOOOO HOO HO HAAAAGH HO HO HO !!
    
    HEEEE HEEEE HEE HA HAHAHAHA HO HO HOOOOOH !!
    
    HAR HAR HAR DE HAR HAR HAAAAAR!
    
    HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HOAOOOHAHJAOOOAHAHOOEEHEHEEHEHOOOOO HAAAAAW !!
    
    HEEEE HEEE HEEEE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    EEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEE !!
    
    EEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEE
    
    EEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEE
    
    EEEEEE EEEEEE EEEEEEEE
    
    EEEE EEEE EEEE EEEE EEEE EEEE EEEE EEEE EEEE EEEE EEEE EEEE EEEE EEEE!!
    
    MrT(wins)

	Here was a team that supposedly had the best bullpen in the
	American League, playing at home in a stadium they owned,
	with early leads in each game at home.  They couldn't hit in
	the clutch when needed, gave up several runs with two outs,
	saw their manager pull a "Snuffy," and became the first team
	in LCS history to lose three straight home games.  Is this a
	team of over achievers ?  Is this a team that achieved at the
	level of their talent ?  No, I would have to say that the "gag"
	label has not yet been removed from the Toronto Blue Jays franchise.

    Only reason Toronto lost three straight at home was 'cuz our beloved
    Bosox lucked out and started at home vs. the A's and "only" lost
    two straight at home.
    Serves 'em right. That's what the Jays git fer winnin' in dem
    odd-numbered years.
    
    MikeL
    

    Well, I had the 'luxury' of a layover in the Minny-Mouse-Poulis airport
    lasted night, and got to watch much of the game with Muffy's and CHips
    from the Twin Cities area.  
    
    Simply amazing folks.  I walked in, and the pretty barmaid (who was
    missing a few teef, BTW) axed me "whatuwant".  I said 'whatugots".
    
    They had beer "Amstel LIght, Corona,,  etc..."  I said
    "YOugotsanyrealbeer?"  Shesays "WegotsLiteonTap"  Gimmeoneofthem, I
    says.  "YOuwantasmalloneoralargeone"  I says "WhateverYOUprefer"  I got
    a large one!
    
    TherestoftheBRieEaters were sipping Perrier and munching
    OtisReddbuckerGourmetPopcorn.  I settled down to a guy wif a_Alaska
    T-shirt (from Anchorage, or course) and drank real beer and had us soem
    tubedNitrates  - served by "Darling" 
    (thatsawhatMr.Alaskasaidtocallher)
    
    Anyway, these folks, I didn't know what was going on in the game.  They
    were sitting on their hands and squirming - I thought they must have
    pickle rings on.  You'dathunk the Twins were losing!
    
    Darling Axed me if I like the Twins, And I say "the only twins I like
    are the Barbie Twins - besides, I like a real baseball team that plays
    in a real stadium, and doesn't have a garbage bag as a fence and waves
    stupid hankies"  Looked right hurt she did - but not about the Twins -
    she said she didn't know Barbie had a TWIN!  SHe knew of KEN, but who
    was Barbies twin - and why was I in to dolls?   Mr_ALaska was a
    chuckling.
    
    When the game went over, the Twinkie fans went RAH, and all went home,
    but Darling gave me and Alaska a beer to celebrate.
    
    Those towns don't deserve a team in the Series!
    
    JD

    Excuse me, JD, while wo *do* eat brie, goldfish, baguette, drink 
    Heineken and like Saabs and BMWs, you show your total lack of 
    intellectual honesty by failing to mention that you were in a_airport
    bar with a bunch a non-Minnesotans who are tired to begin with.
    
    Other than that, though, I thought your piece was poorly conceived,
    badly written, and just meritless.  Good job!
    
    MrT(wins)

    The Blue Jays should receive the credit they deserve.
    
    I mean, realistically, the were overmatched in terms a starting
    pitching, middle relief, short relief, defense, baserunning, 
    power hitting, bat handling, game management, and talent.
    
    And yet they managed to stretch it to a 5 game series.  The Blue
    Jays didn't joke, they did a great job and should be praised for
    it.
    
    MrT(wins)
    

    I thought I read somewhere that with the addition of Candiotti, the
    Jays had about the best pitching staff in baseball.

    4-1 speaks for itself, guys.  Fini.
    
    MrT(wins Win)

    
    If the Boston Red Sox can get crucified for playing lousy baseball and
    getting wiped out in the playoffs by the "better team", then the same
    must apply to the Toronto Blue Jays (who had a better team than any
    recent Sox' edition and who weren't up against any 100+ win Oakland
    A's).  The Jays simply didn't play good baseball.  They and their fans
    will have to live that, same way Bostoners gotta live with the
    consistent excellence of "threedivisiontitlesinsixyearsandinthehuntas
    usual".
    
    Since the Minnesota Twins are suddenly being cited as the newest and
    greatest formula for baseball excellence, I'll have to go with the
    National League team to win it all (again), in six game or less... 
    
    glenn
    

    How's come I haven't seen much, if any, mention of the "C" word when
    describing the Jays?
    
    Lee

    In terms of who has better Pitching NL or AL therfore lowering
    batting averages Im just curious who had the Strikeout Leader
    and Lowest ERA pitcher, NL or AL.  It seems to me if you take
    away the errors and Lowsy Offense therefore ignoring the W-L's
    and look strictly at the numbers (Era, K's) you can then determine
    which league had the better pitchers...???
    								MaB

Well lEe, for whatever it's worth, our sportscasters down here are using
the C word bigtime...

Not, of course, that the Flops could have done any better 8^)


'Saw

       Was it Dierdorf who told it like it is lasted night? "Minneapolis is
    full of bandwagon jumpers."
                                               Denny

    re-.1
    
    Thank God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    That's cuz he's trying to snooker some fellow BW jumpers to go into
    NOStars season tix wif him, and he'll find a way to exit out
    quick-like, gettin' to see a few games without payin"!! 8^)
    
    MikeL
    

	Did the Jays choke?  I think I'd have to agree with the following para -
graph form an article by Marty York (Scrips Howard News Service)
	
	This was a choke. Plain and simple.  Why sugarcoat the description with
any other adjectives?  You drop threee successive games on home turf in the most
important series of your lives and you are engraved in the anals of basebal
as a choke act.  Right there along with the 1964 Phillies.

    To me, that description seems to assume that the Jays were the superior
    team to the Twins.  IMO, they weren't.  The Jays weaknesses were
    exposed big time in this series - over-reliance on a couple of guys to
    supply all the offense was one.  THe Twins were better balanced
    offensively, and the Twins have EXCELLENT starting pitching.  
    
    Losing 3 at home is very bad.  I guess a choke is what folks want to
    call it - so a choke is what you get...
    
    JD

>    Losing 3 at home is very bad.  I guess a choke is what folks want to
>    call it - so a choke is what you get...


I prefer the term 'occluded airway'.  It fits in better with the Yuppie
Nature of the game these days....

8^)

       Maybe instead of 'choked' we cain start saying 'Snuffed'.
                                         Denny

 Gene Mauch it is.   
 
 His 1982 Angels blew a 2 games to none ALCS lead to the Milwaukee Brewers
 and lost in 5 games.   
 
 And his 1986 Angels were 1 heart-breaking strike away from beating Boston
 4 games to 1 ... but the late Donnie Moore served up Dave Henderson's spot
 in baseball history and the Halos went down in big time flames.
 
 One of the bestest managers to never win one.  But he'll never shake the
 choker label after the Phils' and Angels' collapses.
 
 Bob Hunt

    	I thought it was a SPORTS rule that only Boston teams could
    choke?

    Mauch woulda been a great Bosox manager. Gag history an important
    qualification
    MikeL
    

    	I disagree MikeL, it's much more fun to have managers unaccustomed
    to the "gag rule" getting their first taste of it in Fenway.  Mauch
    already had the history behind him.
    
    				/Don

I realize we're in the wrong league note for this question, but since
we're talking about occluded airways, let me ask this:


	1951.  Was the NY Giants catching the Brooklyn Dodgers a great
	catch-up, or did the Dodgers choke miserably?



deen to wonk,
'Saw


PS  Anyone in here, even a RON, remember that?  I mean, do we have any
    one who could say they were there, or that they listened on the radio
    instead of having seen a film clip or read about it like me (born 1958)

    	The Giants played the last 30 or so games at some ridiculously
    high winning percentage and I think the Dodgers played over .500
    so I don't think you could say dem Bums choked even though they
    were noted for such.  I think Lee probably remembers the 1951 season.
    Weren't you a senior in high school or something Lee?  8^)
    
    				/Don

    Great news for all you noters: MrT will be in a_executive box for
    Saturday nite's victory over the Pirates.  Aren't you excited for
    me!
    
    MrT(wins)

    An executive box for that small software business you left for about a
    month or so ago, right?  Yeah, T, I'm real excited for you.  You got
    some nerve callin' Anita Hill a liar when you practice fibbing just as
    well.
    
    	--dan'l

    > Great news for all you noters: MrT will be in a_executive box for
    > Saturday nite's victory over the Pirates.  Aren't you excited for
    > me!
    
    I knew it!  T surfaces at the Metrodome this year just in time for
    baseball's biggest prize.  Hell, nothing but the finals is good enough
    for ol' T, not even that inferior playoff stuff...
    
    glenn
    

Glen,

 Lest we forget T's other prank, nowhere does it say that he'll be in an 
executive box at the Metrodome watching the baseball game. Heck, T could be in
his office, call it an executive box and chastise us all for misunderstanding 
what he wrote....


Metz
  

I once had a friend who called his cat's litter box, "The Executive Box"
because he said that cat produced about the same amount and composition
of material that your average management type person puts out in a day....


MrT, and his unfortunate miscommunication, reminds me somewhat of WKRP's
Les Nesman.  Les, the farm reporter who for some reason always had
bandages on his hands and wrists, felt he deserved an office with a door.
AFter repeated requests were turned down, ol' Les put some tape on the
floor around his desk to simulate walls, with an opening for a door.

Les TRULY believed they were there.


There is no doubt in my mind, that when the first game of the WS
hits Minnesota, MrT will be in a executive box watching the game.

What that translates to in a reality that I can comprehend is truly
anyone's guess.


Regarding Yale:

When I was in college a buddy of mine and I had to deliver a harp to
a fourth floor, no elevator, dorm down there.  It was a interesting
evening, spent drinking beer on the van ride down from New Britain,
carrying this very old, and very expensive harp up four flights of
stone stairs in this dorm, and listening to some most excellent "Yes"
on the way back, to the accompaniment of more beer.

Yale didn't look all that different from any other school to me...
Everyone seemed to put their pants on one leg at a time.  In fact, 
the only thing that made Yale seem to stand out was that they had
a crazy person who wanted their harp on the fourth floor.....


'Saw

    Slasher, not in High School yet in 1951, but I do have memories of it.
    
    No stats, but you were correct, the Giants played *GREAT* ball, while
    the Dodgers played *GOOD* ball.  Not good enough, though, as the Giants
    tied them as Dusty Rhodes became a folk hero in Nu Yawk.
    
    I say the Jays chocked, period.  Losing by one game is tough, but
    losing THREE at home is unheard of!  I wonder where the "experts" will
    place the Jays for next year?
    
    Lee

Meanwhile a_American Indian has started complaining about the Atlanta
Braves doin the Tomohawk Chop thing. Representing some Indian group from
Minnesota, he claims that it's racist and denigrates Indians.

You don't suppose it has anything to do with the Twins being in the
series, now do you? Maybe the Pirates will pick it up.

TTom

    T has already bought his brie, hanky and Sauvignon Blanc for the
    tailgaiting.
    Question remains: Is the tailgaiting being held at the Metrodome or
    his driveway. Which do you vote?
    Moi: Driveway
    
    
    MikeL
    

    So T has sold his soul for a WS ticket.  The man who rails against
    astroturf, the DH, and anything to do with the AL.  The man who said
    the Twins would go nowhere this year.

    I say "T"'s "Executive Box" is really a room where he lives that has a
    sink, a tub, and a commode, with a portable tv on the sinktop.  That's
    where I figure "T" will be watching the series from.
    
    BTW, has "T" ordered the sushi yet, and are Muffy and Biff picking him
    up in their Beamer????
    
    JaKe
    

    T has lied before and why would he stop lieing now?
    
    REK

    I cain't believe the disgusting diatribes I aim reading in here.
    For the record:
    
    * I will be in a box owned by Midcontinent Communications, Inc.
      that sits above 3rd base.  We've used this box for IU football
      games, the NCAA Regionals, and other functions in the Dome. 
      The box is owned by a property purchased by Midco, an FM rock
      format radio station.
    
      This box is in the HHH Metrodome.  I will be in it, physcially,
      only yards away from the 3rd baseline.  I will also be in it for
      all of the forthcoming Final Four, peering down through my binoculars
      at Dean Smif' making a fool a himself yet again.
    
    * I NEVER said the Twinks wouldn't do anything this year.  I'm on
      record as having them finishing either 2nd or 3rd in the division.
    
    * I aim not a hypocrite.  I aim not a liar.  I aim not a crook.
    
      College pranks and terrible misunderstandings notwithstanding, there
      is nothing at all wrong with MrT imbibing in World Series action up
      close and personal.  I had tix for games 6 & 7 a the ALCS but the 
      Twins' clear superiority precluded my going.  We all are prisoners of
      decisions made by others in our communities.  For instance, Atlantans
      are gonna have a geeky dome too.  Haaa.  People in Pittsburgh see 
      football and baseball in the world's worst outdoor athletic facility
      haaa.  People in Pittsburgh *are* sucker enough to line up in their
      cars and hand the keys and $7 over to failed crack dealers to result
      in a tow and a $75 fine.  Heee.
    
      No, when it comes to local aesthetics we are all victims a fate.  And
      this includes MrT, by rights and by natural law.
    
    MrT

On occasion here in the office, I engage in a little game with
certain memos which have come out from certain managers.  Everyone
enjoys it in a lighthearted spirit. 

It's called "What He Really Meant":


>    * I will be in a box owned by Midcontinent Communications, Inc.
>      that sits above 3rd base.  We've used this box for IU football
>      games, the NCAA Regionals, and other functions in the Dome. 


I will be in a box owned by Midcontinent Communications, Inc, that
was used to deliver the new refrigerator for their lunchroom, and
it sits above 3rd base on the local Minny Valley Little League Field.

I've used this box for football games, where it functioned as
a out-of-bounds-in-the-endzone markers, the NCAA regionals, and
other functions around home.


>      The box is owned by a property purchased by Midco, an FM rock
>      format radio station.

This box is actually on a property owned by Midco, an FM rock station,
and is located in their garbage dump out behind the studio, which
is next door to the Minny Valley Little League Field

    
>      This box is in the HHH Metrodome.  I will be in it, physcially,
>      only yards away from the 3rd baseline.  I will also be in it for
>      all of the forthcoming Final Four, peering down through my binoculars
>      at Dean Smif' making a fool a himself yet again.


I will be in the box, with a guy named Willy, who's homeless and who
I let use the box from time to time.  I will be in it during the Final
Four, staring at Dean Smif on my 5" Panasonic battery operated TV,
using binoculars to make the picture bigger, whilst Snuff's eyeballs
pop outta his haid from choking....

    


I couldn't resist   8^)

'Saw

    
    >>* I will be in a box owned by Midcontinent Communications, Inc.
    >>  that sits above 3rd base.  We've used this box for IU football
    >>  games, the NCAA Regionals, and other functions in the Dome. 
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Don't forget to include the national Brie eating championships!!
    
    >>* I aim not a hypocrite.  I aim not a liar.  I aim not a crook.
    
    HAHAHAHA, you are also not Richard Nixon.
    
    >>  are gonna have a geeky dome too.  Haaa.  People in Pittsburgh see 
    >>  football and baseball in the world's worst outdoor athletic facility
    
    "T", just how many football games and baseball games have you attended
    in Three Rivers to help you formulate this crock of s#$t you spewed??
    3Rivers isn't the aesthetically bested place, but it ain't the worsted
    either.
    
    >>  haaa.  People in Pittsburgh *are* sucker enough to line up in their
    >>  cars and hand the keys and $7 over to failed crack dealers to result
    >>  in a tow and a $75 fine.  Heee.
                                                           
    PArking at 3 Rivers is $3-4, depending upon where you go,.
    The rest of the bunk you put in that statement is just diarrhea of the
    mouth rambling on your part.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    So, I gots a question - for you folks attacking poor MrT - would any of
    turn down an offer to see a World Series game?  I know I wouldn't. 
    Heck, I went to the Cincy/Yankee series in '76, at Yankee Stadium, cuz
    I got free tickets.  Didn't like either team, but it was the world
    series!
    
    I wouldn't turn down a ticket to any champeenship, that's fer sure. 
    
    JD

	I have cousins who are twins (Peter and Michael Robichaud) and they 
are disgusted that the team in Minnesota that plays in a_enclosed area, on 
a pool table like playing surface, with garbage bags in the outfield, that 
uses a designated gimmick, and was so bad it couldn't sweep the Blow Jays, 
are using "Twins" as the team's moniker.  They plan on protesting at the 
HHHDome Saturday night.

				/Don

    It's Metrodome Box #117.  Its door is one the upper concourse within
    the HHH Metrodome located on Chicago Avenue in the City a Minneapolis,
    aka The City a Lakes (from whence the name Lakers sprang).  This is
    a executive box, complete with refrigerator, two TVs, a wet bar, two
    rows of seats facing sliding windows, and two love seats facing a
    coffee table behind.  
    
    I, poor MrT, will be physically present within this box, as in executive
    box, DURING GAME ONE A THIS YEAR'S WORLD SERIES AT 7PM THIS COMING 
    SATURDAY NIGHT !!
    
    Poor MrT

 There are a couple of sports talk AM radio stations here in the Twin
 Cities and I was listening to one of them on the way back from the
 customer site lasted evening.
 
 Whatta riot.   Of course, they're all hyped up over the Twins and they are
 being pretty honest about the whole thing ... that is, no one is really
 claiming that they knew this would happen all along.
 
 But the thing that sent me rollward was this one clown who insisted on
 referring to Kirby Puckett as, get this ... "The Frenchman".   As in
 "Mess-syur Le Kerr-bay Pook-kay".
 
    "Boy, ahm tellin' ya ... when "The Frenchman" got hot in the
    SkyDome, it was all over but the shoutin', yes-sir-eee.    You
    betcha, Kerr-bay Pook-kay was the dominant player in those coupla
    games."
 
 Way too funny.   If Kirby Puckett has a drop of French blood in him, then
 MrT is the Queen Of England.
 
 Bob Hunt

>    rows of seats facing sliding windows, and two love seats facing a
>    coffee table behind.  
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hey!  I resemble that remark!!!!


    
>    I, poor MrT, will be physically present within this box, as in executive
>    box, DURING GAME ONE A THIS YEAR'S WORLD SERIES AT 7PM THIS COMING 
>    SATURDAY NIGHT !!

Would you be so kind as to wear an orange wig, and hold up a sign which
says "Jesus Saves", so that we can know which one is you?


Thanks 8^)

'Saw

Re JD:

What if it wass a champeeship between Da Bears and a Tornado, and 
da Tornado's name was Dikka, would you still go to da game?

What if it wass a champeenship of da Double-Yew Double-You Eff,
would you still go to da game?

What if one of da wrasslers wass one, Mike Dikka, who would you root for?



Bill Swerski

    
>> MrT is the Queen Of England.
    
    I will practice extreme restraint on this statement.  It may kill me
    but I will refrain from any comments on it!!  (8^0*
    
    JaKe
    

    
>> MrT is the Queen Of England.
    



*We* are not amused.


MrT    

    JFSAG, HEY "T",
    Three Rivers may have it's problems, but at least the Stadium doesn't
    HINDER fielders when they try to follow the flight of a fly ball or
    pop-up!!!  Who was the brain-daid ackytect who designed the roof for
    the Hubert's House a Heifers Metrognome?????  What was his problem,
    would'a different colored roof clashed with his dockers?????
    
    JaKe
    

    
    I wonder how many suckers actually think Mr. T Barum Bailey
    is going to be at the game? Some people will never learn....
    
    Rick

    Rick, you're gonna be danged sorry you said that when I fax a copy
    a my *executive* box ticket to Frank, Hendry, and other credible
    objective observers and they report my Truthfulness in here...
    
    MrT

    re.394
    Anybody can "borrow" someone else's ticket for a coupla minutes.  I
    wanna see ya on TV with a "drop the Geek" sign waving, or I ain't
    beleevin it.
    
    JaKe
    

    	Now while MorT and I may disagree on the relative merits of
    Dean Smith, I know him to be a_honest and credible noter.
    
    				/Don

    bad batch of 'Shrooms, Slasher???????
    
    JaKe
    

    JD, you're right.  A WS ticket would very difficult to turn down.  I
    just find it interesting that a man who chastised Bob Hunt for basking
    in the glory of a #1 ranking of his alma mater's football program is
    attending a game inspite the fact it epitomizes everything he says is
    wrong with baseball (the AL, the DH, fake grass, domes) and is even
    watching it from behind a window.

    Mac -
    
    Point well taken.  MrT - give your ticket to someone else.  A Dan
    Schneider-type....
    
    JD

    I agree with the lasted few, "T" if you stand for what you believe in,
    you'll give the ticket away.
    
    Lessee, i wonder if I can get my flight from Colorado Springs diverted
    thru Minneesoda Saturday???  "T", I'll take the ticket, cause I know
    you'll give it away as a matter of principle.
    (8^|*
    
    JaKe
    

As usual MrT has added spice to zing up this conference.

I was wondering what the difference between a_Executive box is, and
a "Luxury" box.

I have only attended one event in my life in a so-called "luxury box"
and that was the ZZ Top concernt last year in Hartford.  It was quite
an experience, will a refrigerator stocked with some fine amber nectar,
and munchies, and pizza and whatnot.


'Saw

    my Fax # is DTN 297-2105
    
    

    my Fax # is DTN 238-4360


    
    

 T, I am ashamed of you. How can you even think that you'll see UNC in HHH
 nexted March???? Cmon now that's the Final Four Spot not the Sweet 16...
 
 Besides this year Snuffy's going out before the regionals...

    Sorry, but a fax of the ticket is not good enough.  We want photo
    evidence or none of us are buying this one-in-a-series-of-many
    ludicrous T pranks.
    
    Go jump in a lake, T.  You've got your choice of a thousand of 'em.
    
    	--dan'l

 Tell you what ... not to worry, I can help out here ...
 
 T, how's about you and me meet at the DEC office in Bloomington (ya know,
 right across the street from where the Twins used to play outdoors on
 grass with no DH ...) after work today and you give me your Series ticket.
 
 Then I'll take the ticket back with me to Charlotte this weekend and
 I'll show it to Dan'l to prove to him that you're really going to the
 game.   Then I'll give it back to you on Monday morning when I'm back in
 Minny.
 
 Great plan, don'tcha think ???   C'mon, you can trust me.  I'll even give
 you my 3M visitor's badge as collateral for the ticket.  That way, if I
 don't come back you can finish up the assignment for me.
 
 Bob Hunt

    I can't believe you people are honestly in doubt about whether he's
    going to the Series.  Of course he's going.
    
    Me_thinks you're all still suffering from the embarassment from saying
    all those nice things about him when you fell hook, line, and sinker
    for his "I'm Leaving DEC" charade.
    
    Everyday before I log into SPORTS I give myself a little
    pat_on_the_back for not falling off the cliff with the rest_of_ya!
    
    Haw haw haw!!!!!!1111
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    ACC Chris,
    
    Thanks for 'splaining the pat on the back.  And to think that
    
    I believed all this time you did it to try to dislodge that
    
    chicken bone from yo' throat!!!!!
    
    ;^)
    
    Kev
    

    
    
    	No, No, if T is really going to the game, let him hang a sign
    that says,
    
    	Homer, Plato, Bob Knight...
    
    	That otta get the cameras attention!
    
    
    	T, I gotta tell you that I was beginning to follow in your
    footsteps when you talked about the American League, the DH, fake
    grass etc.. but isn't this kind of sacreligious that you would attend 
    such a game?  Or is this strictly a political move to rub noses with
    the up-idy neckties?
    
    	Shame!  Nothing is sacred anymore!
    
    
    								bill..g.

    Mac, you're wrong.  We'll be watching the game with the window
    open, wide open, so as to bask in the din emitting from the game's
    most raucus fans - Minnesota Twins fans.
    
    As for proof, please understand that I'll be in the luxury box cuz
    I'm the type a person meant to be in such a box, mingling with execs
    and imparting the wisdom they invited me in the first place to hear:
    the utterances a a scientifically objective sports analyst.  My host
    has offered to issue a notarized attestment on Midco letterhaid stating
    that I have attended the game and enjoyed it from his luxo-box.  
    
    Moreover, I cain provide photographic proof if desired.  Beyond that,
    if Spud is gonna be there I'll invite him in to witness MrT in his
    natural element.
    
    As for my alleged hypocrisy, please understand that it is the role a
    a moral leader to understand his enemy.  I'll confess here and now that
    I have even visited TALC bars from time-to-time so as to better know 
    the lust that drives men to smoke, drink, and ogle young women with the
    worst form of human thought in their minds.
    
    No, I'll be there alright.  And I'll be there doing my duty: Decrying
    the Designated Geek, the roof, the plastic turf, the echos, all of the
    terrible things that are a affront to any right-thinking baseball
    purist which is exackally what I aim.  
    
    But, there will be no hypocrisy in my being there.  I won't be there 
    selling out my Principles.  I'll be there watching, observing, analyzing.
    Probably be drinking too, and as far as MrT is concerned this game will
    be on grass also.
    
    There is only so much one main cain do, and I'll try as hard as I cain
    to do it all.  I'll be all that I cain be, which in this case will be
    to attend the World Series, which is more than any a *you* cain say
    haa !!
    
    MrT(wins win !!)

    
>>    As for proof, please understand that I'll be in the luxury box cuz
>>    I'm the type a person meant to be in such a box, mingling with execs
>>    and imparting the wisdom they invited me in the first place to hear:
>>    the utterances a a scientifically objective sports analyst.
    
    "T"(winkies will lose to the NL), c'mon, you're going to make me puke.
    $set mode/voice=Mr_Rogers "Can You Say, 'Legend in your own Mind'???"
    
    
>>    								  My host
>>    has offered to issue a notarized attestment on Midco letterhaid stating
>>    that I have attended the game and enjoyed it from his luxo-box.  
    
    A couple of bucks and anyone would do the same thing.  Plus, anybody
    could pick up a piece of a companies letterhead whilst onsite, and if'n
    ya know a notary pubic, ya got another forged "credential".
    
    Da Twinkies will sip bigtime, no matter who they face (preferably the
    Bucs).
    
    JaKe
    

    What's this?  MrT will be drinking and under the influence of grass in
    the luxury box at the Metrodrone?  How many innings will that last?
    Spud better get up there quick if we're to get proof of presence (or a 
    photo of the T-ster in the clink will do...).
    
    MrT, since you're only going to the game to observe the enemy and to
    impart to him your infinite purist wisdom, can we assume you'll
    be steadfastly rooting for the NL team, just as you did last year with 
    the Reds (phony turf, rotten multi-purpose stadium) over the A's 
    (grass, nice ballpark)?  I'm only going along with your craven 
    involvement in this "prank" if I see an affidavit that your haid was 
    parked underneath a Bucs (or Braves) cap.  Put up or shut up, bub, or
    the "hypocrite" label sticks... 
    
    glenn
     

So Bob Hunt, you never told me MrT ran Tupperware parties.....

    Geez, *I* didn't fall for the phony goingaway note, so I guess I can
    fall for this one.  Afterall, I think that maybe, just maybe, T may
    tell the truth for once.  You know, kinda a slip on his part, but the
    truth nonetheless.  
    
    So, if it's true, then enjoy yourself, T.  Yeah, I'll admit that I'd go
    to ANY WS game if I had the chance, even if the Yankmees were in it!
    
    Reminds me of 1967 when the company I was at had a raffle of WS
    tickets.  Most of them were *won* by people in personnel, and out of
    some 90 technicians in our test area, one guy won a pair.  Guess who?
    
    Nope, not me, but Guisseppe Matolla, a guy who had come over from Italy
    about a year before.  Nice guy, but when he found out he won, he said,
    "Whatsa beeseboll?"  True story.  I think every other tech in there,
    besides me, was a Sox fan.  Amazing, huh?  Would I have gone if I won?
    Damn right I would have.  Course, I woulda rooted for the Cards, cause
    I really hated the Sox back then.  But, I woulda gone.
    
    Lee

    'Saw,
    Not Tupperware. T will regale (sp) us this Am on how he staged his
    "Naughty Nighty" party; thus the impure thoughts.
    
    MikeL
    

       T was modeling 'Naughty Nighties'!? Got any pictures?
                                           Denny

    	No it's called not letting predjudices interfere with a fair
    evaluation of the facks!
    
    				/Don

    Braves win game 3, series now 2-1 with Twins in lead.
    
    Not being a fan of either team, I was just kinda watching the game for
    enjoyment.  I saw a play that got me tweaked, though.
    
    It was by the Twins rightfielder.  The situation was a runner on 3rd
    and a ball hit to right.  This guy, whoever he is, waited under the
    ball, then kinda shot his glove up at the last second to make the
    catch.  Then, he lowered the glove, got the ball into his throwing
    hand, wound up and make the throw to the plate.  Way to late, and off
    the mark, up the 3rd baseline.
    
    Now, for the money I'm sure he's making, how come he can't make the
    most basic of plays for a fielder?  Why, knowing a runner is in scoring
    position, didn't he come in on the ball so that he had some momentum,
    make the catch with BOTH hands just over his throwing shoulder, than
    make the throw?  He lost at least a second, and that's a lot.  Sure,
    the throw has to be to the plate, but even where it ended up could have
    been more competitive if he got it there a second earlier.  What
    distance does a runner cover in 1 sec.?  15 feet, 12?  That's quite a
    bit of time to allow the catcher to try and make a play.
    
    I've taught this to 10 and 12 year-old girls on my daughter's softball
    team.  They learned to do it.  Isn't this a VERY basic part of being a
    professional outfielder?
    
    Lee 

	Goats:

	Kent Hrbek.  The guy comes up twice in extra-innings with runners
	in scoring position and one out, and stikes out.  This allows the
	Braves to walk Puckett to get to a pitcher with two outs.  The Braves
	escape from a dangerous situation both times.

	Tom Kelly.  As I mentioned earlier, you don't usually pull the
	double-switch, then immediately hit for the new fielder after one
	inning in the field.  That wastes a pinch-hitter, one that was
	crucially needed later on.  He also used his last reserve, Al Newman,
	to hit for a position player, instead of saving him for a time when
	a pitcher was hitting with runners in scoring position.  No matter
	what Newman's average is, he must be better than a guy who has not
	hit in 2 years, and is a pitcher to boot.  Finally, does it make
	that much sense to do the double-switch with your #5 hitter ?  It
	sure gave the Braves an opportunity to pitch around Puckett in crucial
	situations twice last night.

	Dan Gladden, hero turned goat.  Not as bad as the first two, and he
	did have 3 hits (albeit one a very tainted hit).  However, Justice
	was only one step off third when Gladden fielded the ball, and he
	was playing shallow to begin with for Lemke.  Any sort of throw at
	all nails Justice at the plate.

	Finally, the oldest goat of all,
	Mr T.  The truth starts to dawn on the ::SPORTS world as to which
	World Series games he is viewing from the Metrodome.  (Hint: think
	of the games between game 2 and game 6.)

    How about Ortiz failing to take third on a deep single earlier in the
    game?  He got to third an out later by tagging up on a fly.  If he had
    taken third to begin with, that fly would have scored him.

 The play that got my goat was the near miss double play by Lemke 
 where he just came with in a whisker of touching Gladden. Given 
 that guys aren't even in the same area code as second bases on most
 double plays I would have thought that this play qualified as an
 automatic out too....

 mike

    Based on this year's performance and '87's, Dan Gladden seems to be one
    of the few that really thrive on postseason play.  His throw last night
    was weak, but offensively he's tough.
    
    I remember seeing him in the early '80s playing for the Phoenix Giants
    (now the Phoenix Firebirds), which was/is the AAA team for San
    Francisco.  He won the Pacific Coast League batting title a few times
    before being called up in the mid '80s.
    
    Mike

RE:  Gladden

	I know it's a cliche but Gladden seems to 110% out there. He's a fun 
player to watch.

mc

    
    How can someone give more than 100%?

    Easy.  You mooch the rest from thy neighbor.  I refer you to that
    ultimate gilt-by-association case, Mark McGwire.  He gives 210%.
    
    MrT

    The Brewers named Phil Garner their new manager.  Garner has no
    managerial experience; he is a friend of the owner.
    
    Garner is most remembered for being part of a truly awesome infield for
    the 1979 "We Are Fam-i-ly" Pittsburgh Pirates. 
    
    	--dan'l

    
>    Garner is most remembered for being part of a truly awesome infield for
>    the 1979 "We Are Fam-i-ly" Pittsburgh Pirates. 
 
    No infield featuring Tim "You Want *Me* to Bunt?" Foli at shortstop
    can be described as "truly awesome", dan'l... ;-)
    
    Actually, the 1979 infield distinguished itself more on offense
    than defense, with Foli providing the defensive stability.  Garner,
    Madlock, and Stargell crushed the ball, especially in the World
    Series, but Stargell had slowed considerably on defense and Madlock
    always was one of the worst fielding third basemen in the league...
    
    glenn
    
     

>    Actually, the 1979 infield distinguished itself more on offense
>    than defense, 
    
    That's what I meant.  Sorry it didn't come out that way. 
    See...everything you write is a request for judgement.  8-)
    
    It was a good infield, however, especially at turning a DP.  
    
    	--dan'l

    My memory on this is hazy,but didn't Garner play on one of the
    champeenship A's teams( on the bench perhaps0?
    
    MikeL
    

	Three most used lines...

	Check's in the mail.

	I'll still respect you.

	Don Baylor is being considered for the job.

    Anyone besides me catch Twins' manager Tom Kelly's remark following the
    Twins' visit to the White House yesterday:
    
    	"We didn't get lunch, but it was a good time anyway." (or words to
      	that effect)
    
    Still cleaning the coffee off the TV screen, I was roooolllinng.
    
    (so did they make up a special shirt for George, or just give him one
    of Randy Bush's old uniforms? :-0)
    
    
    py

    I saw that....  I was rolling too !
    
    What a guy..
    
    Big Game

    From the BASEBALL conference:
    
    The Orioles have resigned Glenn Davis to a two year contract.  Don't
    know the details.
    
    
    py

    Jack Morris has filed for free agency.  How about a one-two punch of
    Clemens-Morris?  Are you listening, Lou?

    	I just got off the horn with Mike Childs, and he's very excited
    about Roger winning the award for a *third* time.
    
    				/Don

    Slasher, now there's a word, "excited".  :*)
    
    Sure leaves me wondering.  Was Mikie slurring, or dribbling on the
    phone?  Was he incoherent, babbling, raving, swearing, stark-raving
    mad?
    
    I would have loved to have seen him when he first heard the news!
    
    Congrats, Roger.  And best of luck in your quest to become a member of
    the HOF!  :*)
    
    lEe

 Something like HOW THE F^&+_)()**(^*&%&*^)*)_)*(_()+_) could they give it
 to that F(()_*&()_*&_))_())+_) bum again?

 with a look of total shock and disbelief on my face or something like that
 lEe....

 ;^)

    I read in the Red_Sox conference that Cal Ripkin was voted the AL MVP.
    
    Has anyone won the MVP on a team with a lower winning percentage than
    Cal?

    
    	I don't know Mac but I read in the paper where Cecil
    	was urinated.
    
    	Claybone

		Andrea Dawson won it hist first (?) year with the Cubs.  I
think they might have been in last place?  I'll check when I get home and 
post tomorrow if someone doesn't correct me first.

mc

    Mack, whose Andrea, Andre's twin sister?  :*)
    
    Another player won it from a losing team.  But, I believe Ripken's team
    was the lowest positioned team to ever have a winner.  Maybe not, tho,
    seeing that the Cubs are usually in the vicinity.
    
    Anyway, Fielder was PO'd because he felt he had a chance last year and
    was told that the winner is ALWAYS from a division-winning team.  He
    accepted that, only to now see a guy from a 6th place team win it.  He
    doesn't have a problem with Ripken, only the criteria he was told which
    now doesn't apply.
    
    Myself, I don't see what the team's final standing has to do with it. 
    I mean, If that's meaningful, then why does the team need another 8
    starters?  Isn't this a TEAM game?  Why should one's measurement for
    this award be affected by the performance of teammates?  Would Babe
    Ruth still be the BABE if he played for a team that never won a
    pennant?  How would his value to his team have been measured?  By how
    many more games they would have lost without him?  How do you do that?
    Who do you sub for him in order to figure that out?  What year of the
    sub's career do you use?  If the Babe plays, then the sub must sit, so
    what basis do you have for his stats?  Last year?  Career average?
    
    It can't be done, so it's extremely subjective.  Therefore, again, what
    does the teams standing have to do with it?
    
    lEe

	Cecil Fielder called the voting a joke.  I can understand his 
dissapointment especially since he plays in the ALmost League for the most 
typical ALmost type team (even worse than the Red Sox), where hitting is the 
only baseball skill that's recognized.  He's a great power hitter, but 
that's it.

				/Don

    Until objective criteria are defined for this or any other award no one
    has any right to complain about who does or doesn't get chosen.  If
    anything should be bashed it's the lack of any consistency.
    
    Sorry Cecil but those are the breaks.
    
    John

    But noD\, how valuable was his hitting to the Tigers?  More so than was
    Ripken's to the O's?  Maybe, maybe not.  I think what Fielder is pissed
    about is that he was told one thing last year, and then he sees the
    opposite happening this year.
    
    No, Fielder isn't the overall ballplayer that Ripken is, and he didn't
    have a comeback like Cal did (mainly because he was consistent from
    last year to this one).
    
    But, I know this is not the first time this issue has been raised, and
    it sure as hell won't be the last.  However, I think it's great that
    someone from a non-title team DID win, and perhaps the selection will
    be truer to the title in future elections.
    
    Tell you what, tho, if the Tigers had gone on to win the division and
    pennant, Fielder would have won this year with the very same stats that
    he had.
    
    Perhaps it's time to take the vote away from humans in regards to all
    these awards.  Design a program whereby particular stats are given
    weight, depending on the type of award.  Pump in the numbers at the end
    of the season, and the bias and/or ignorance of voters is removed.
    
    Of course, there would thereby be a major broohaha in trying to decide
    the stats to use, and the weight given to them.  Ya can't win, I guess.
    
    lEe

    There will always be the issue of what the MVP actually means.  Does it
    mean BEST player which could be determined primarily by the stats, or
    does it really attempt to measure the VALUE of that player.  If you
    pick VALUE, is he valuable to the TEAM or to the AMERICAN LEAGUE?
    
    I read an article a little while back that related a story about the
    VALUE concept.  I don't remember the parties involved, but basically a
    player had an outstanding year, and the team had a horrible year.  It
    was time to negotiate his contract and the team offered a cut in salary
    using the logic that even without that player's outstanding
    performance, they still would have had a lousy year.

    
    Who exactly "told" Cecil this reason he supposedly didn't win last
    year?  The 28 voters, personally?  Besides the fact that his team 
    won the pennant (not just finishing third in a weak division), 
    Rickey Henderson had one of the great offensive seasons of all time 
    last season.  Look it up.  It took a hell of a lot to beat out a 50+ 
    homer season, but Henderson did it and was deserving of the award.
    
    You want inconsistency, you've got to go back to another Tiger,
    Alan Trammell, undeservedly finishing second to George Bell in
    1987, even though his team won, he was comparable offensively, and
    played better defense at a much more important position.

    glenn
    

    Glenn, it was the elusive "they" who told Cecil.  I don't know who
    actually told him, or how many people.  But, it HAS been the general
    consensus that the MVP comes from a divisional winner.  It makes no
    sense to me, but then again it's such a subjective award that I'd say
    it's virtually impossible to develop an accurate means of measurement
    that would be accepted by all.
    
    Can you imagine the furor if there were no such thing as a World Series
    between the leagues?  Who's the best, Braves or Twins?  Hell, we'd have
    all kinds of measurement systems, who won the most, most runs, least
    runs, best ERA, best defense, and on and on and on.  Yet, none of it
    would really determine the BEST.  Matter of fact, many people won't
    agree that the Twins are the best, only that they were the best of the
    two teams in a particular series of games.  
    
    You're right, Trammell did deserve the MVP.  I'd say that there is a
    controversy over the selection in just about every other year.  Maybe
    more often, I don't have stats.  
    
    Ah well, baseball is over, football is closing in on the end of the
    season, BB is in the early stages, as is hockey.  Sooo, the question is
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    	Can Spring Training be far behind?   :*)
    
    lEe

    Can someone post the Gold Glove winners?  I heard they were announced
    yesterday.

    Mac -
    
    Nothing in USA TOday on Gold Gloves..
    
    JD

    
    1991 Gold Glove winners:
                     
    American League			National League
    
    1B  Don Mattingly (sorry MrT!)	Will Clark
    2B  Roberto Alomar                  Ryne Sandberg 
    SS  Cal Ripken               	Ozzie Smith (shoulda been Larkin!)
    3B  Robin Ventura           	Matt Williams
    OF  Ken Griffey Jr.         	Barry Bonds
    OF  Devon White              	Tony Gwynn
    OF  Kirby Puckett            	Andy Van Slyke
     C  Tony Pena                    	Tom Pagnozzi
     P  Mark Langston               	Greg Maddux
    
                                                   
    glenn
    

DAMN!


Where's Greenwell???  I thought for SURE he'd be in there.....8^)

	I think they did a pretty good job on the AL.  

mc

    Steve Howe reportedly has been nailed for drug possession again.
    
    Man oh man, that stuff must really have a hold on him.  According to
    the report, he's been suspended FIVE times from MBL.
    
    Sad.
    
    lEe

    So much ffor a lifetime ban ,eh lEe
    
    MikeL
    

           
    Howe was arrested with some other men in connection with a drug 
    bust that netted 2.2 (now that's a familiar number) pounds of coke. 
    Forget about baseball, it's slammer time for Mr. Howe.
    
    In this particular case, where we're not talking about a slip-up
    at a party or something (which would be damaging enough), I have
    a hard time summoning any sympathy for Howe.  At some point you've
    got to look past this "insidious disease" business and question
    the man's character...
    
    glenn
    

    Brian Harvey became the highest paid relief pitcher in the majors
    yesterday when he signed a whopping $15.5 million / 4 year deal with
    the Angels.
    
    Mark.

DOPES, every last one of em.

    
    How much did the Yankees sign Gallego for?  Ithought I hear 5 mill orve
    3 yrs, but never saw/believed it.

    re .465:
    
    I've heard both $5.1 million and $5.6 million over three years.
    
    
    py 

    	George is pulling the strings again.  Wonder if Faye will do
    anything about it?  Especially after his statement yesterday that
    Rose bet on Reds games.  I say old Faye is chickenpoop and George
    will come back in August.
    
    				/Don

    I apologize if this is in the wrong note but I'm not
    really much of a baseball fan so I figure I have a 50%
    chance of getting it in the right note.
    
    Nintendo has tendered a $100 million dollar offer to buy
    the Seattle Mariners baseball team.  Commishioner Fay Vincent
    has stated that he's gonna try to block the sale.
    
    I remain,
    horrible at Mario 1,
    Kev
    
    ;*(
    

    re /Don's p-name:
    
    Didn't catch it on the news, what's up with Jose now?
    
    
    py

    	Jose and Esther had a fight at an all night gas station (must've
    been filling each other's tanks for Valentine's Day), and Jose chased
    her through the streets of Miami.  He then rammed her car with his,
    then to add insult to injury spit on her windshield.
    
    				/Don

    Forgot about the part where he spit on her windshield! :-)
    

    
    Yeah, bashed his 'vet into her beemer I think it was.  Damn kids and
    their toys.....
    
    Dickstah
    

     His was a Porsche, hers a Beemer. $10K damage.
                                      Denny

    the charges he faces carry a possible 15 years in the slammer.
    
    JaKe
    

    Maybe Tyson and Cancrash will have an exibition Boxing/Homerun hitting
    contest to benefit  the rich people who get hit with all of the
    capital-gains tax.... :-}
    
    REK

 maybe not Mike. Guys like him can find ways to blow it just as fast as they
 make it. I believe he just had a house and condo repossed for failure to pay
 a small lien. Under 5K I think. too bad I threw away me USA today it was in
 there.

 15 years? His wife's the main witness against him? She already change the
 story once and claimed the cops only arrested him because of who he was.
 Then back again, and she's rebutable? 

 Tell me I'm wrong  but isn't illegal for a wife to testify against her husband
 or did I loose that right too? Lordy only knows how many others they've already
 taken....

 mike

    A wife cannot be *forced* to testify against her husband (and vice
    versa).  However, she can be asked, and if she agrees, her testimony is
    then "ok".
    
    HTH
    
    A&W

       Anyone have any news on Matt Keough? He was hit in the temple by a
    foul ball yesterday while in the dugout. He had emergency surgery to
    remove a blood cot in his brain and was in critical condition as of
    last night.
                                        Denny

    Denny,
    The only additional info I heard was that the doctor stated that while
    critical, he is not in a life-threatening situation. Interpret that
    however you cain.
    
    MikeL
    

    Well, any head injury like that is considered critical for the first 24
    hours, after that, you reassess and upgrade accordingly ...

       Report last night said he's 'improved' to serious condition. And
    they see no permanent damage.
                                     Denny

Thanks Tommy!

Now to get to Baltimore for some b-b-q......



'Saw

       Speakin of the O's anyone have a Oriole Schedule for May. I'm going
    to be down there and I wanna check out the new park.
                                          Denny

Who else did Boog play for?  I don't remember him playing for anyone other than
the Orioles, unless it was really early in his career.

Tom

                            
> Who else did Boog play for?  I don't remember him playing for anyone other than
> the Orioles, unless it was really early in his career.
    
    The Orioles traded Powell to Cleveland after he had started to fade. 
    He may have even played a few games somewhere else at the very end, but
    I'm not sure of that.  I have a vague recollection of him playing a few
    games for the Dodgers, but that could have been someone else (not Frank
    Robinson, I know the O's traded him to the Dodgers...)
    
    glenn
    

    re .487 (Denny):
    
    Orioles home series in May:
    
    May 1-3 	Seattle
    May 4-5 	Texas
    May 6-7	Minnesota
    May 8-10	Chicago
    (away May 11-17)
    May 18-20	Oakland
    May 22-24   California
    (away May 25-31)
    
    
    py

       Thanks much, looks like Oak. or Cal.
                                         Denny

Boog Powell was never the American's league MVP was he???

    Does anybody know if the Orioles are playing at home between April 29th
    and May 4th?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ken
    

    Ken,
    
    Orioles are at home from May 1-4.  They have a three game series
    against Seattle May 1-3 (Friday & Saturday night, Sunday afternoon),
    and have a Monday night game against Texas on the 4th.
    
    
    py

 Buck Showalter is certainly out in front in the early race for AL manager
 of the year.  Haven't seen Yankee fielders diving for ground balls in a
 l-o-n-g time.   Staff ERA is way down and the entire team is playing
 "little ball" to near perfection.
 
 You're looking at an '89 Orioles type of team.  Betcha the Yanks stay in
 the race until some late point and then fall just short of an expected
 horse like the Jays.
 
 Mattingly finally looks like he's enjoying himself again.
 
 Bob Hunt

>Betcha the Yanks stay in
> the race until some late point and then fall just short of an expected
> horse like the Jays.
    
    Yeah, and then we can call it the '92 Impossible Dream!
    
    	--dan'l

    Sorry Bob ... George will get the team back by August 15 (the Yanks will
    be 1.5 out of first), then watch the Yanks fold like a house of cards
    and finish 10 out.

    re Yanke's Impossible Dream.
    
    Don Mattingly will NEVER have a bread named after him ala Yaz bread.
    
    The Sox would never trade Tony Pena to the Yanks in August.
    
    The Yanks don't have a Billy Rohr.
    
    Scott Sanderson is no Jim Lonborg and Steve Howe is no John Wyatt.
    
    Rich
    

 Trust me, I'm no Yankee fan ... but even the most bitter anti-Yank has to
 see what's happening so far.  Showalter looks like Tom Kelly, Jr the way
 he sits in the dugout and orchestrates these boys.
 
 If Steinfool re-enters the picture, New York will have to double the
 security watch on the Empire State Building tourist elevator.
 
 If Showalter keeps this up, he'll have the Mets' collective blood pressure
 at the boiling point by the All-Star break.   New York is one place where
 inter-league comp burns white hot.
 
 Bob Hunt

    I agree that the Yankees are playing inspired ball. And I agree with
    Bob Hunt that Showalter is a big piece of that. But how many of the
    kids on that roster will be able to handle the inevitable pressure that
    the NYC media will put on the team if success continues?
    
    The way Showalter handles this is key to any Yankee resurgence. Can he
    shield players who cannot handle the media? 
    
    In addition, the pitching is untested over the long haul. Can Howe last
    a whole season without getting into trouble? Can Sanderson be the staff
    workhorse?
    
    But Bob is right.....a team like the Yankees, handled right, could be
    in the thick of things all year. Is Showalter this man? We shall see.
    
    Rich
    

    	The 6-0 Yankees remind me of those guys who always sprint out
    to the early lead at the Boston Marathon.  Those same guys who are
    seen clutching their sides as they lie on the ground at Heartbreak
    Hill.  8^)
    
    				/Don

    
    What does well back mean?  April only has 16 days left... are they
    going to go 0-rest of april?

                                    
    > What does well back mean?  April only has 16 days left... are they
    > going to go 0-rest of april?
    
    Let's say they'll be at least 3-4 back and on their way down...
    
    glenn
    

    
    If 3-4 is well back, where does that pu the sox?

    
    Well Back....
    
    
           Look the Yanks are still a year and one good starter away from
    seriously contending and you haven't seen any Yankee fans in here
    tooting any horns yet have you. 
    
            On the other hands the Sox time is now this might be there last
    chance with Jody and mr margo gone after this year. average age?????
    31.

Last night's game between the 5-0 Yanks and the 6-0 Blue Jays was the 
"deepest" meeting of two undefeated teams in this *CENTURY*, believe it or 
not.
 
There are two previous games between 3-0 teams ... 

    17-Apr-1942 -- Yanks 1, BoSox 0   (a familiar refrain, no doubt)
    16-Apr-1922 -- Indians 3, Browns 0

Ya gotta love baseball.  Just when you think you've seen it all, you ain't.

Bob Hunt

    Chappy - what do you mean Reed and Boggs will not be with the Sox
    nexted year?
    
    Rich
    

    
    
         Exactly Reed says he is not coming back, and Gorman made some lewd
    comment about Boggs and his agent said them and the sox are way off on
    the salary numbers.

    Reed is not eligible for free agency until after 1993, FWIW.  He didn't
    come up until the 1988 season (except for a cup of coffee at the end of 
    1987), so 1993 is his sixth season.  He may be gone before then anyway, 
    but it won't be of his own volition.  Effectively, he started the 
    obligatory "threaten, then cry" negotiating ploy a year early...
    
    glenn
    

    re the last few:
    
    IMO, Reed is history.
    
    However, I think Boggs will stay.  Wade knows full well he's not going
    to accrue the stats he does in Fenway in another park...that plus his
    age will keep Boggs from getting Sandberg/Bonilla/Tartabull $$$.
    
    Based on what I saw this spring, John Valentin *right now* is the Sox'
    best defensive SS.  A player to watch for in the not too distant
    future.
    
    re the Yankees:
    
    I'll want to see how the likes of Johnson, M. Perez, and Leary do in
    their next few starts before I'm convinced.   At the very least though,
    they'll be improved this year.  The addition of Tartabull prevents
    other teams from pitching around Mattingly and Roberto Kelly; Charlie
    Hayes appears to be filling the Yanks' longtime hole at 3B; and they do
    have a deep quality bullpen...Yankee starters can be had, but if this
    team gets to the 6th/7th/8th innings with a lead they'll be tough to
    overtake.
    
    
    py
     

    didn't see .512 before entering my note, I stand corrected about Reed.

    I will not dispute that leaving Fenway would have a negative impact on
    Boggs' numbers....but in fairness, it must be noted that he has a
    LIFETIME .310 batting average on the road.  Although that pales in
    comparison to his .381 average at Fenway, it still is an incredible
    feat, matched by no other active player (to my knowledge)!!!!
    
    
    HTH,
    
    Nelly

    Dewey said he was going to retire because of his back, the Sox didn't
    pick up his option and then he decided to come back.  Given what Dewey
    said, I'd have done the same thing.
    
    John

 But Mac it still takes a team effort or atleast thought about the team. Seems
 to me a team player would have been looking for a game winning hit instead of
 a game tying walk in the seventh on monday??? Especially when that player 
 and a lot of supposed experts thinks he's one the top batsman in the league..

 then again 48 people out of 100  are naive enough to trust Bush so....

 your favorite anti...

    
> But Mac it still takes a team effort or atleast thought about the team. Seems
> to me a team player would have been looking for a game winning hit instead of
> a game tying walk in the seventh on monday??? Especially when that player 
> and a lot of supposed experts thinks he's one the top batsman in the league..
    
    Well, Mike, you win the prize for Most Jaundiced Red Sox Rooter of the 
    week (and take a strong early lead for yearly honors ;-).  I didn't 
    think it possible that Boggs could receive criticism for taking four 
    straight balls that weren't even close to the strike zone to force in 
    the tying run, but I guess with Boggs just about anything goes these 
    days.  Wade should probably do something about those annual 
    league-leading intentional walk totals, too, like get a longer bat...
    
    glenn
    

 Cmon Glenn , I know you're not telling me that no one has never swung at what
 would be  a called  "ball" in the same situation. It certainly wasn't an 
 intentional walk so there must have been something that a man with such 
 great bat control could have handle..

 mike

    
 > Cmon Glenn , I know you're not telling me that no one has never swung at what
 > would be  a called  "ball" in the same situation. It certainly wasn't an 
 > intentional walk so there must have been something that a man with such 
 > great bat control could have handle..
    
    Mike, even in the best of circumstances where the ball is in the strike
    zone, the best hitters in baseball make an out 65% of the time. 
    Swinging at pitches outside of the strike zone a hitter like Boggs
    that percentage goes up to 75% or higher.  Go talk to Ted Williams
    about the merits of swinging at lousy pitches.  Or maybe even Tony
    Pena, who's made it and leaving scores of men on base a habit.   
    
    I was at the game, sitting in dead centerfield; the pitches were not 
    even close (this was the second straight walk by Frohwirth).  Flailing
    away at pitches a foot outside instead of taking the game-tying walk
    would be very stupid baseball.  All this proves is that short of
    hitting a home run in every clutch situation, Wade Boggs can and will
    be criticized for just about anything...
    
    glenn
    

 Look I can see both of your points and I agree percentage wise your logic is
 correct but sometimes the percentages are wrong. Sometimes a guy with heart
 playing with emotion can and will go against the odds and win. That's something
 you'll never see from Boggs and that's why he'll always be criticized. When I
 play I wear my emotions on my sleeves, I guess that's just the way I think it
 should be....

    I see Mike's point. With the game on the line, 2 outs in the bottom of
    the 9th, bases loaded and Sox down by 2 with Boggs up, I think Boggs
    would work the pitcher for a walk rather than take a swing at a good
    pitch at 3-1. 
    
    Rich
    

    Rich, Boggs has shown he'll swing at a good pitch no matter what the
    count (except maybe the first pitch).  It's the borderline good pitches
    that he takes that people seem to have the most problems with.  As Ted
    Williams shows in his book "The Science of Hitting"  the chances of
    getting a hit decrease dramatically for pitches further away from a
    hitter's "sweet spot".

 Not to mention that Wade Boggs has no concept of English history and
 wouldn't know a great Prime Minister if he fell over one.
 
 Bob Hunt

       No, Lord North played for Reagan.
                                 Denny

    re .527
    
    Mac, remmeber that Williams, he with the 521 lifetime HR's (despite
    missing 4.5 seasons due to miltary service) got the same blistering
    critcisms as Boggs.
    
    And my guess is that eventually, Frank Thomas will too. He has
    *phenominal* patience at the plate.

    One final from this afternoon -- Toronto 7, New York 6.
    
    I'm concerned about the Blue Jays running away and hiding early in the
    AL East, a la 1984 Detroit...
    
    
    py

    Sigh... twas a very good year...

    Well, the Sox play Toronto next 4 straight. Then the jays play at home
    against Claifornia, KC and Cleveland. 
    
    If the Sox blow the home games to the Jays, it very well could be that
    the Jays will make a total shambles of the East.
    
    Rich
    

    
    > One final from this afternoon -- Toronto 7, New York 6.
    
    The way you described the Yanks blowing that one, Paul, apparently the
    bloom is off in New York now (three straight losses).  Maybe they (and 
    everyone else) will be out of it by the end of the weekend.  The Red 
    Sox certainly can't afford to have the Jays blow through them in a 
    four-game series, April or not...
    
    glenn
    

    Final from this afternoon -- Texas 5, Baltimore 3.
    
    
    py

    Minnesota beat New York this afternoon, 5-1.
    
    
    py

    Could somebody please tell me if the Royals are at home July 3rd-5th.
    
    Thanks,
    Joe

    Yes, I can tell you.  The Brewers are in town July 2-5.  You get really
    lucky.  It's a brief homestand for the Royals after a visit to New York
    and before a trip to Boston.
    
    It is Kansas City in the summer, and Jim Bouton once said: "What could
    be better than a 4th of July doubleheader in Kansas City?  Anything up
    to and including a kick in the ass.  Kansas City gets hot like few
    places get hot."
    
    John

    The ball Mookie Wilson hit through Bill Buckner's legs in 1986 is going
    on auction in New York City today.  Reports are it will sell for
    anywhere between 10K-50K.  Tom Cuddy of WBZ Radio (afternoon drive-time
    sports) says the best thing would be for a Red Sox fan to buy it and
    toss it into Boston Harbor.
    
    On a related subject, there's a column in the Globe today about how the
    autograph collectors (or "get-a-lifers") have made baseball road trips
    a nightmare and have ruined getting autographs for little kids who
    aren't collectors.  There is a hotel in Arlington, Texas which is a 3
    minute walk from Arlington Stadium but 3 teams (including the Red Sox)
    have been driven out by the great number of collectors who hang out
    there.  This same columnist also calls rotisserie players
    "get-a-lifers"
    
    John 

    
     Dan Shaughnessy wrote the article on autograph hounds and IMO, he's
    dead right. However, it's Bob Ryan who calls rotisserie players get-a-
    lifers and the walking dead.

    You're right about Ryan calling the rotisserie players get-a-lifers but
    I've never seen him call them the walking dead.
    
    I would like to get Ryan and Shaughnessy into a debate about who more
    needs to get a life - autograph hounds or rotisserie players.
    
    John

     I remember reading Ryan calling rotisserie players "walking dead" 
    in the same article that he called them "no-lifers". While I've
    never belonged to any kind of rotisserie league and can think of
    about 294,980,317 things I'd rather do I don't know why Ryan has such 
    a problem with it.
    

 Probably cause no one ever asked him to be in a league......

    Well, it happened.  A major star was injured last night while playing
    in adverse weather conditions.  Nolan Ryan pulled a hamstring while
    pitching in a downpour in Yankee Stadium.

    
    Yabbut, Nolan Ryan has pulled leg muscles in every other game this
    year...  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

	Ryan was injured at Arlington Stadium in Texas. Relief pitcher
Rich Monteleone of the Yankees called it "the worst conditions he has
ever seen". He was obviously not at the Red Sox/Brewers game, I think,
earlier this season.

    
    
    The former Tiger baseball player Denny Mclain has the 6-9 am slot
    on our local talk radio program.  A discussion came up between
    Denny and the sportscaster about the sorry state of pitching in
    baseball.  Denny related a discussion he had with some former
    major league pitchers.  The conclusion that they came to is that
    major league baseball is relying to much on the college's to
    develop the players.  Previously the minor leagues were the training
    ground for pitchers.  The average velocity on a fastball has dropped
    from 88 mph to 83 mph.
    
    The minor league pitching coaches would work with a player to develop
    arm strength and proper technique which isn't currently being taught
    in college.
    
    Comments as usual are always welcome.
    
    \pjb

Phil,

Just curious -- what else is Denny doing these days.  I remember he did
some time in the Big House, and he kind of got out of shape, right?

Does he have a restaurant or something that we could go to, next time
we're in Detriot?


He was the last 30 game winner, and I can't even remember anyone lately
who has come close...


'Saw

    re: .551
    
    Hmm. Clemens got his training at the college level, Gooden in the minor
    leagues, McDonald in college, Guzman in the minors. There are too  many
    pitchers that come up through the minors and not from the college game
    for that to be the main reason.
    
    NY Rangers in '93
    The Crazy Met
    

    There are a couple of different reasons why colleges hurt pitchers:
    
    1.  College coaches are concerned with winning and can tend to overuse
    their pitchers without regard for their futures.  Minor league managers
    are most concerned with player development and therefore will not
    overuse their pitchers.
    
    2.  College pitchers don't learn to pitch inside.  With wooden bats,
    when you get jammed, you can hit the ball but you'll break your bat. 
    With aluminum bats, an inside pitch can still get hit.  This has led to
    college pitchers not pitching inside (although I think it can still be
    effective).  This has in turn led to hitters not being used to facing
    inside pitches so they dive over the plate, which leads to more hit
    batsmen which leads to more brawls where hitters charge the mound since
    they aren't used to facing inside pitching.
    
    3.  Kids don't throw enough.  In most cases, the key to being a good
    pitcher is to have a good fastball.  Most pitchers can learn to throw a
    breaking pitch but a good fastball has to be developed from the very
    beginning.  College baseball makes this problem worse - instead of
    airing it out and developing a good arm, college pitchers throw
    breaking pitches and junk.
    
    John

 Did McLain have anything to say about the aluminum bat in his theory on
 the demise of pitching ???
 
 College pitchers have all but abandoned the inside half of the plate as
 the metal batsmen just kill those pitches.   Aluminum bats have a bigger
 sweet spot and they encourage hitters to "dive" across the plate to drive
 the ball.   Schoolboy arms react by throwing junk on the low outside part
 of the plate where they hope the hitters can't hurt 'em.   It's a mess.
 
 Minor league pitchers facing wood have the entire plate to work with and
 have no problem "claiming" their half of the plate.   Wood hitters are
 much more methodical in their approach to hitting and consider themselves
 "craftsmen".
 
 There are exceptions, of course ... Roger Clemens can throw an aspirin
 tablet through a pin hole and Will Clark can hit line drives with a garden
 hose.   Both are collegiate alums and neither have suffered the metal
 woes.
 
 But for every Will Clark, there are ten hitters like Pete Incaviglia who
 *still* can't hit like he should with wood.   Ban the metal bat at all
 levels of play and you'll see pitching make a roaring comeback.
 
 Bob Hunt

    
    Frank,
    
    >Just curious -- what else is Denny doing these days.  I remember he did
    >some time in the Big House, and he kind of got out of shape, right?

    	He is still out of shape.  He plays a lot of golf along with his
    	morning talk radio program.  I think he is about a 2 handicap
    	in golf.  He once challenged Bill Laimbeer to a golf match.
    	I never did here whether Laimbeer took on his challenge.
    
    	He recently lost a daughter in an Auto accident.  It seems
    	a semi trailer with no lights decided to back into a driveway
    	on a major road at 2:00 am.  The trailer was occupying both lanes of
    	west bound traffic.   Denny's daughter was travelling the speed
    	limit of 55 mph didn't see the truck and hit it head on.  The
    	car behind slammed into the back or her car which caused her
    	death.
    
    	The drivers of the truck were charged with negligent homicide.
    
        Denny doesn't pull any punches when talking about the Detroit
    	teams and also the Detroit media covering the local teams.
    
    	I can't remember if there was a comment on aluminum bats.
    
    	He is critical of the league taking away the inside part of the
    	plate from the pitchers.  He is also critical of the players
    	that charge the mound if they are pitched inside.
    
    	A common occurence when he pitched if someone hit a homerun
    	off of him the next batter would be knocked down.  The batters
    	knew they were going to be knocked down.
    
    	\pjb
Does he have a restaurant or something that we could go to, next time
we're in Detriot?

    

    In order to make it financially feasible to get rid of aluminum bats,
    the major leagues are going to have to subsidize high school, college,
    Little League, Babe Ruth and American Legion baseball; because wooden
    bats are just too expensive for these groups of teams to use.
    
    John

                              
    I think aluminum bats are part of a problem in the development of
    pitchers (and their fastballs) in college, but the main reason you
    don't see dominant pitching like you used to is because they lowered
    the mound (removing a large source of leverage) and have in practice 
    gradually reduced the size of the strike zone, further necessitating
    the pitchers' ability to throw breaking stuff instead of fastballs to 
    a small strike zone more favorable to the hitter.  Neither of these 
    changes has anything to do with the quality of the pitchers themselves.  
    It's a matter of opinion whether this has improved the game or not, but 
    I happen to feel that offense in McLain's heyday was ridiculously low, 
    and I'm something of a purist.  An average of around 3.25 runs a game 
    per team like we saw in 1968 is just a little too close to a soccer
    game for me... 
    
    Expansion and the five-man rotation also has had more to do with
    watered down staffs and lousy pitching than alunimum bats or college
    coaching, in my opinion...
    
    glenn
    

    I don't care what they do as long as they make the games faster because
    a 3 hour average game is too long.  I'd like to see an expanded strike
    zone and specifically, the umpires should start calling high strikes
    and strikes on the inside corner again.
    
    John

If they would just tell the batter to stay inside the box as soon as they step
in. There really isn't a reason why the batter has to step out of the box, get
a new set of signs, adjust his jock, spit, swing a few times and then step out 
if the pitcher takes a second too long before and after every pitch.

The games are waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy to long these days....

Metz

    They should not only keep the batters in the box (I would have liked to
    have shot Mike Hargrove, a/k/a the "Human Rain Delay") but they should
    enforce the 20-second time limit between pitches.
    
    John

>    They should not only keep the batters in the box (I would have liked to
>    have shot Mike Hargrove, a/k/a the "Human Rain Delay") but they should
>    enforce the 20-second time limit between pitches.
    
I thought it was 45 seconds (or am I thinking of golf?)


At any rate, if I remember correctly, it's up to the second base umpire
to "time" or keep an eye on the time-rate of the game.  Evidently, it
is not a high priority amongst umps.

Now, you would think it would be, because umps more than anyone else
want the game to go by quick.  (They don't get to sit down and
rest while everyone else does), but they never seem to be in a hurry
to get it done.


'Saw

    It is a 20-second limit.  It's in the rule book.
        
    I guess the reason why they don't enforce it is because it's become
    defacto-legal.  Whenever a rule in sports (or anywhere, for that
    matter) is left unenforced for a while and then enforced, the hue and
    cry from the players and managers is unbelievable.  If they made every
    hitter stay in the box between pitches (and if the batter didn't, let
    the pitcher pitch when ready and call it a strike), or conversely call
    a ball when the pitcher didn't throw again in 20 seconds (as long as
    the batter didn't deliberately delay), the ballparks would get torn
    apart.  They'd have to announce enforcement of the rules at the end of
    one season and start enforcing them in the next spring training to be
    really fair to the players - because players have adapted their styles
    to the way the rules aren't being enforced.
    
    Umpires have two priorities - fast games and no controversies.
    
    John

Re:563

 John, isn't the 20 second rule only in effect when there's nobody
on base?

Bob

    Just use the damn strike zone as it's defined in the rule book, and
    we'll have faster games.
    
    And, I agree on also enforcing the rules as they are written for
    stepping out of the box.  
    
    I pet peeve is that damn "In the neighborhood" call at 2nd.
    
    Lee

    	Speeding the game up means less time for commercials.  Never
    happen unless the owners start taking a beating financially 'cuz
    of the slow game.
    
    				/Don

    Now that I think of it I believe the 20-second rule applies when bases
    are empty only.
    
    Speeding up the game while it's being played won't cut down on the time
    for commercials, since most of them are run between innings anyway.  It
    will cut down on the time for radio "drop-in" type commercials,
    however.
    
    John

    Jai's best friend's brother was drafted by the Mariners last week.  His
    name is Jimmy Deal.  I think he's a pitcher.
    
    	--dan'l

	Is that Jamon Deal, from UNC-Asheville ?  He's a pretty good
	pitcher IMO; pitched a one-hitter against Georgia Tech earlier
	this year.  Wild as heck, though (he lost the game 2-1).

    Yeah, I got his first name wrong.  It is Jamon Deal and I partied with
    his sister (et. al.) lasted night.
    
    He is in Arizona now and he might have a shot at the Mariners in the
    next few years if there are no coaching changes because one of the
    coaches there was his college coach for a while I hear.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    I can't remember if this was reported or not.
    
    Cal Ripken turned down the Orioles offer of $30 million for 5 years.
    
    Seems old Rhino has set the wage scale.
    
    'pjb

    I really like this year's Oriole team.
    
    Mark.

    Some recent quotes from Rickey Henderson:
    
    "When you're in your rocking chair, you're going to look back and say,
    'I saw Rickey Henderson.'  It's like Ty Cobb.  That's how they're going
    to read about Rickey Henderson."
    
    "I'm not happy so I'm going to ask to be traded.  It's been going on
    too long.  I don't think I'm treated fairly.  They don't deserve what I
    do."
    
    "Two years ago I was God. Last year I was the goat.  I don't feel like
    I get the respect for what I've done in this game.  I should be another
    Nolan Ryan."

Wow.

If that's his ego, I'd hate to see his SuperEgo!


'Saw

    
    Rumor has it that his shrink and PR advisor is one and the same person!
    
    
    
    MrT (in his new job I'll bet)
    
    many > {:^)
    
    I remain,
    when I used to say those same things myself!
    Kev
    

    Think I'll save his quotes for those times when I need to barf but just
    can't seem to do it.
    
    What a jerk.
    
    Lee

    
      It seems like no one denies what he's saying is true just that
     for some reason he'a jerk for saying it. Go figure.

    
    >  It seems like no one denies what he's saying is true just that
    >  for some reason he'a jerk for saying it. Go figure.
    
    When Rickey demands to be traded one night and then says he was kidding
    in the morning it's hard to figure what the truth according to Rickey
    is!  I've long ago just accepted the guy for what he is, the greatest 
    leadoff hitter in baseball history when he wants to be or is able to be 
    (take your pick) in the lineup...
    
    glenn
    

    > "Two years ago I was God. Last year I was the goat.  I don't feel like
    > I get the respect for what I've done in this game.  I should be another
    > Nolan Ryan."
    
    Upon pitching his seventh no-hitter last year, Nolan Ryan's first words
    were that he was thankful to have done it on a fan appreciation night.
    
    When Rickey broke the stolen base record last year, first thing he did
    was to spout off a bunch of "I am the greatest" trash.
    
    Maybe the first step to "be another Nolan Ryan" is to be a little more
    like Ryan...
    
    
    py

>      It seems like no one denies what he's saying is true just that
>     for some reason he'a jerk for saying it. Go figure.


Well, obviously it comes down to personal preference.   Speaking only
in terms of my personal preferences, I prefer people who have a touch
more modesty, and a little more humility.

Henderson is good.  But to me, he taints that by telling the world just
how good he thinks he is.

I think the dichotomy between Henderson on the night he broke the record,
and Nolan Ryan on the same night's unprecendented 7th no-hitter, illustrates
how I feel.

Ryan, humble and modest, let his accomplishment do his talking for him.
Henderson, IMO, tainted his accomplishment by making some very childish
statements.  

The entire world saw him break the record.  That in itself should have
said enough.   A simple "Wow, I worked hard for that and feel very satisfied
in breaking this long standing record" would have sufficed.


I mean, to the best of my recollection Henry Aaron didn' stand there
after 715 and say I'm the greatest of all time.



Granted, it all comes down to personal preference, but for me, if you 
can walk the walk, you don't need to talk the talk.


'Saw

    
     So basically, people wish Henderson would spout cliches and practice
    false modesty.

    I see a distinct parallel between Rickey Henderson and Muhammed Ali. 
    Ali, in no way, took victory a la Nolan Ryan.  He, like Rickey, was
    hated for this.  But those same people who then felt that Ali's
    trash talk took away from his greatness are now agreeing that he was
    indeed the greatest, no longer hate him, and even feel sorry for him
    now that he's old and a semi-invalid (which I still don't buy
    totally)...
    
    JMHO.
    
    Hawk
    

Hawk -

Don't count me that crowd.  Ali's fights were fixed, he made fight fans chumps.
He was propped up and molded by his handlers.   The greatest hype job of
all time.  Howard Cosell made Ali - and vice versa.   Neither is missed by
this noter.

JD

    No, Tommy, I don't want him to spout cliches and show false modesty. 
    He can do whatever he wants.  I don't have to like it.
    
    I always worked with coaches who said "When you lose say little, when
    you win say less."  When you're good you don't need to brag, dance or
    taunt.  You've shown how good you are.  This is one reason why I enjoy
    watching rugby.  The players just play the game without any of this
    extra crap and then they go out together and have a couple of beers
    afterward.
    
    I get into a running argument every football season over the
    deterioration of football into the Solid Gold Dancers.  I happen to
    believe sportsmanship is important.  Yes, you're trying to win but
    respect for one's opponent is important too.
    
    John

    
    re .585
    
    Hawk, I agree 1000%
    
    re .586
    
    JD, either that's a rather sad attempt to tweak people or you know
    absolutely nothing about boxing or both.

Tommy, I'll echo what John Hendry just said.

Henderson can do whatever he wants.  I will respect his accomplishments,
for they are indeed very fine accomplishments.  However, I will not like
him for his attitude.

Like and respect are two very different things.


Also, Ninj made a good point about how much you say.  I always like to
remember the story of the Roman conquerors, who, when returning to
roam would ride into the city in a chariot pulled by white horses,
their new slaves and newly acquired riches parading in front of them.

But, riding next to the hero in the chariot was a slave, who had one
simple job.  He kept whispering into the ear of the hero "Momento Mori"
"Remember, you are mortal".


When we win a big game, we never taunt, or express our greatness, especially
to the other team.   We will rejoice amongst our selves, take a little
pride in our accomplishments, especially in light of the hard work,
training and commitment it required, and then turn our sights ahead.


Henderson can say whatever he wants, as is his right.  I'll respect what
he has achieved, yet I find it hard to like  his super bravado ego.


'Saw

    
    > So basically, people wish Henderson would spout cliches and practice
    > false modesty.
    
    Tommy, personally I could live with Henderson publicly proclaiming
    himself the greatest each and every day before he takes the field if
    that's where it ended.  But doing this at the same time he's feuding
    in the press with his manager about whether he's fit to play or not and
    subsequently asking to be traded (and then rescinding the statement) is
    too much.  A couple of teammates have already blasted his behavior this 
    year.  I think he's crossed the line where he's disruptive to the team
    (and it takes a lot for me to say something like that), and keep in
    mind that this is essentially a re-run of what happened with the
    Yankees.
    
    glenn
    

    
    re .587,.589
    
    Ooooh, Jockism rears it's ugly head.

    I wish he'd practice some true modesty.  I'll echo the sentiment that
    if he wants to be treated the same as Nolan Ryan, he should learn a few
    things from Nolan first.

>    re .587,.589
>    
>    Ooooh, Jockism rears it's ugly head.


HUH?

I don't consider myself a jock.  Far from it in fact.

Most of my feelings about "walking the walk without talking the talk"
come from my years as musician.

Then, the general feeling was that if a guy could play his ax well, that's
all that he needed to do.  In fact, among the musicians I hung out with,
we generally disliked guys who this attitude I'm the greatest.

I guess it gets into personal philosophy a lot, be we always felt that
talent was a gift (and along with that we felt you should always make the
most of the gift) but it wasn't like something youd did that made you great.


That has carried over into other facets of my life, from writing software
to the sports I pursue.


So, no, I don't consider that I'm a jock.  I'm a guy who likes to do lots
of different things, one of which is play rugby.  There are some very
sportsmanlike philosophies that go with the game, a lot of which are
unspoken, although not everyone follows them.

(In fact, I see a big difference between the attitude of Kevin Swords,
IMO one of the best Eagles ever, and the attitude of former Eagle
Gary Lambert, but that's for another time and place).

    Sawmains, I don't think that Tommy was implying that you're a jock, I
    believe he was alluding to the fact that in sports, there are jocks
    among the sportsmen.  Kind of like a fact of life.  They're there.
    When I think of jock, I think of a typical city softball league type 
    of team, you know, the play for blood serious stuff.  It seems that 
    they're all jocks, and arrogance galore. Definitely no Nolan Ryan
    types.
    
    That's what I got out of Tommy's reply anyway.  So, don't worry,
    Sawmains, you ain't no friggin' jock!  :-)
    
    Hawk
    

    
      It seems to me it'a basically a matter of taste. Saw, John Hendry and
     Mac all like boring, egg salad on Wonder Bread, mumble a few cliches
     about the `good of the team', adhere to the basic tenets of Jockism
     type players and I don't.

    ...but are they cliches if the guy really means them? 
                                         Denny

    
    I really don't want to start another race rathole, but I think in
    fairness without painting with too broad a brush *some* cultural 
    differences must be accounted for in a straight comparison between 
    Henderson and Ryan.  Ryan grew up on a farm in Texas, and Henderson 
    grew up on the city streets of Oakland.  There are going to be 
    differences in philosophy based on environment, whether one likes 
    it or not.
    
    Last night at the drive-in movie while the kiddies were watching
    Pinocchio on the left screen I turned around and caught "White Men 
    Can't Jump" on the right one.  I think in watching that movie you 
    can see the differences I'm talking about and still be able to 
    respect the competitiveness beneath the obvious differences in 
    surface appearances.
    
    With that said, I still think Henderson is something of a jerk for the
    reasons I've given.  That's what I mean about not wanting to paint 
    with too broad a brush... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

Good point Glenn.


I'm not into white bread, I prefer Wheat or Pumpernickel 8^)


I've always believe that I can let my playing speak for itself.  In fact,
I do participate in a sport where you're not supposed to do a lot of
talking on the field.  Cain't talk to the ref (unless to ask for a minute),
shouldn't be bitchin' at the other players....

I approach the sport as a friendly game, and only get nasty if I have to.
I rarely have to.


If someone says "You had a phenonemenal game today" (or more commonly
on my team we say "Man, that was YOUR game.  That was YOUR game today")
I says Thanks, and hope that there's still a cold beer somewhere....



Do we have a short order cook in here?  I'd like someone to put some
jalapenos on my egg-salad ;^)


'aw

    
    
     Thank you, Glenn. I thought the exact same thing but didn't say it
    for fear of being accused of ratholing.