Conference 7.286::sports_91

    
    	Seeing that this note has seen no activity, I thought I'd give some
    folks in Mass. the scoop on the Western Mass hoops scene.
    
    	Central High school could very well end a 2 year drought an emerge
    with the state title if they keep playing the way they have been.
    Amazing at it may sound, their average VICTORY margin is 51 points a
    game!  Yep, they are beating their rivals to the tune of 51 points a
    game.  Last friday was a real cruncher when they beat an arch-rival
    inner city school (Commerce) by scoring what it to believed at least
    a western mass. record 132 points!  They demolished the Commerce team
    by almost 100 points!  Commerce had a decent team, but it appears as
    if the grade point average bug has hit them (they were undefeated for
    a while this year and I see no other explanation on how they could of
    been beaten so badly except that they lost players due to grades).
    
    	Central is nationally ranked by USA Today at # 21 largely from
    their victory in the Observer Christmas tourney down in North Carolina.
    Travis Best (2nd team all-american last year) is leading the way
    averaging 28 points a game (doesn't play that much in these blowouts).
    
    	Central's biggest test comes this wednesday night when they play
    cross town rival Cathedral High School who are also undefeated.
    Central's closest game this year in Western Mass. has been a win by
    ONLY 30 points.  Cathedral is good, but this current version of Central
    is a real buzz saw.
    
    	Still, 132 points for a 32 minute contest is putting up some
    points!
    
    							bill..g.
    

    
    
    	Another update from western Mass..
    
    	Travis Best seems to have set an alltime scoring mark for the state
    by pumping in 81 points in Central High's latest win.  Central again
    broke their own Western Mass scoring record of 132 by scoring 144 
    against cross town rival Putnam, but the real story was Best.
    
    	To put the 81 points into perspective, he shot 31-44 from the floor
    and was 10-19 from the 3 point area.  If my math is correct, that means
    that he only missed 5 shots inside the stripe which would of meant he
    shot 20-25 inside the 3 point arc.  He had 48 at the half and broke the
    western mass record of 64 with 10 minutes to go in the 2nd half.  He
    also dished out 11 assists, grabbed 7 rebounds and had 8 steals.  Not
    a bad night!  All this from a 6' guard.  I would expect the scoring
    night from a center, but coming from a 6' guard makes it more
    impressive.  
    
    	Since I ref'ed the JV game that night, I got to see part of the
    first half to which I can simply say, "the kid was on!"  No gunning,
    just unstoppable.  
    
    	Another way to look at his 81 points is that there were 33 other
    teams in action in western Mass that night, and he outscored 30 of them
    by himself.  His halftime total of 48 points was also the highest total
    of anyone for that entire night.   
    
    	Gotta admit, it was a great show!
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

    
    
    	Don't know the specifics, but the regular season ends here in 
    Western Mass on Feb. 21.  Figure the tourney should end in early
    March like the first two weeks.
    
    	I doubt though that Central will make it from here because of 
    their coach.  They are not coached that well and they play a real
    Nevada Las Vegas type game, which can either produce a lot of points,
    or produce a lot of foul trouble.  So far, Central has only seen the
    lots of points outcome, but in the playoffs, they could get into 
    serious foul trouble and exit early....although I would like to see
    them get another shot at Burncoat.  I know that between Burncoat and
    Central, they possess the two top players in the state IMO.  So, it
    would be a nice re-match.
    
    							bill..g.
    

    Looks like Medway may have a shot at making the States in basketball
    this year, also.  So far the basketball team is undefeated, winning
    by an average of some 15 - 20 points per game in the league.
    
    I wonder what the odds are of 1 school making the finals in three
    sports in the same year are?
    
    A&W

    YA know Goose (you'll never lose that nickname!),
    
    	For a guy to score 81 points, it's nothing short of incredible!!
    Naturally, NOTHING appeared in the Worcester papers and I doubt it was
    even worthy of a by-line in the Glob!
    
    Too Bad to have one of the country's best BBall players and NOT
    even know about it, according to the local rags!
    
    Any stats on that game?  % ?
    
    Kev
    

    
    re: .7
    
    	Kev, I can get the stats cause I had to buy the paper after I saw
    the 11:00 news when they said he scored 81.  I would of seen the whole
    game in person if my wife didn't have to be somewhere...I had to leave
    about mid-way through the first half.
    
    	I'll post the stats (what the paper posted) after lunch.
    
    	BTW, there was a write-up in yesterdays USA Today.  He got a
    partial column on the High School page.
    
    	One other thing, the McDonald's All American game featuring the
    best High Schoolers in the nation will be played in Springfield as 
    part of their year long celebration commemorating the birth of
    basketball in 1891.  I don't know the date, but I can get it if anyone
    is interested in attending.  From what I know, the game will be
    televised by CBS nationally.
    
    							bill..g.
    

    State HS Hoop playoff day will be at the Centrum on either Saturday,
    March 16 or Saturday, March 23.
    
    John

    There is an article on Best and his 81 point performance in today's
    Boston Globe.  Interesting comment from Travis' coach: "He could have 
    had 100, but he passed the ball too much"...
    
    
    py

    I believe that beating other teams by 50 points is sick.  The coach
    needs to slam dunked himself.  Also scoring 81 points is awesome, but
    WHY.  Maybe I am missing something, I don't know this team, and I don't
    know if they pull there first string or not.  If they keep the first	
    string in, I can only wait for when they graduate and it becomes	
    payback time.  But like I said I maybe off base on this.
    
    charlie
    

    
    
    	I can say that the 81 point performance was due in part to the old
    record of 61.  Best surpassed that mark early in the second half and 
    that he shot awfully well (31-44).  I do believe that he should of come
    out, but I'm not the coach.
    
    	As for the scoring marks of the team, they simply pressure the ball
    the entire game, which I find upsetting.  Simply put, this guy does
    not know how to coach.  He leaves the starters in too long and doesn't
    know what to do in close games.  The only bummer about him is the fact
    that he will probably retire before any of beaten teams can regroup and
    return the beating, but someday he will be rewarded for the way he is
    coaching now.  And maybe it is an omen that out of the 3 years that
    Central has gone into the State Playoffs, they have only come out with
    one title when they have appeared to have the better team.
    
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

    Central was a better team than Durfee two years ago, but got totally
    outcoached by Skip Karam.  The better team didn't win that day.
    
    As for the best player in Massachusetts, I've seen them both play
    more than once and I'll take Eric Brunson of Salem over Best.  Brunson
    is a shooting guard, not a point, but he handles the ball well, has
    a very nice touch, is tough as nails, and is an excellent defender.
    He's going to Temple, and will step right in for Mark Macon.
    
    NAZZ

    re .13:
    
    Tuesday's Boston Globe reported that Brunson is out for the rest of the
    season, including playoffs, due to an injury (I think it's his hand,
    can't remember for sure).
    
    
    py

    
    
    	In other western mass news, Rebecca Lobo of Southwick High has
    become the all-time scoring leader in Mass history.  With a 56 point
    performance on Tuesday night, she surpassed the old record (2500+).
    
    	Rebecca is one of the top 5 girls in the country and will attend
    UCONN.
    
    re: Nazz
    
    	I would tend to agree with Brunson, but really the only thing I can
    see that Brunson has over Best is that he is taller.  Granted, I only
    saw Brunson play one time last year, but he looked like a real solid 
    player.  But, I'd still have to take Travis if I wanted a true point..
    
    								bill..g.
    

    I just read where Best, and I believe Brunson, are both selected to
    play in the McDonald's All-American game, to be held in Springfield.
    
    I think it's in April.
    
    In girl's hoops, Haverhill, rated #3 in the Northeast, will play tonite
    at home.  They drew a bye in the first round.  The main issue will be
    the play of their center, a 6'1" freshman.  She's come a long, long way
    since the start of the season, but she's relatively inexperienced in
    pressure games.  Should be very interesting.
    
    Havrhill's record is 19-1, with the lone loss going to Andover early in
    the season.  They came back to beat Andover, and took two from Methuen
    who took their three games with Andover, including a win in the first
    round.  
    
    Unfortunately, the Hillies have not been playing well over the last 4-5
    games or so.  No injuries, although their point guard, Kerry Guertin,
    is banged-up a bit due to her constant diving for loose balls.  She's a
    real scrapper.  If they play in their midseason form, they should
    advance to the next round.
    
    Lee

    Hawk, are you going to the game?  I'll be there, but probably not until
    almost game time.  
    
    Lee

    
    
    	Here in Springfield, Mass. the mayor has declared today as Travis
    Best day!  Hey folks, I only live here, I don't make policy!  Anyway,
    Travis has been named to both Parade's and McDonald's All-American
    squads.  He was also in a recent SI article that listed him as one
    of the top 5 prospects in the country.
    
    	Tonight, Best will take his Central team into the playoffs against
    Agawam.  In the 3 years that Best has played at Central, they haven't
    lost a home game.  Tonights game is at Central and will be Best's last
    home game.  He is also closing in on the all-time western Mass scoring
    record that is held by Mark Hall (T should remember Mark since he
    played for Minnesota about 10 years ago).
    
    	Other news out of town has the second best player in Western Mass,
    Derek Kellog committing to UMASS...  This is the first player that the
    new UMASS coach has been able to recruit from Mass.  So all you UMASS
    folks can rest easier.
    
    								bill..g.
    

    
    Hawkstermeister,  if a corn plaster is good for corns, and a knee brace
    is good for your knee, then a cold beer must be good for a cold, n'est
    pas?
    
    And didn't your Grandma Szabo ever tell you to "stew a cold and starve
    a fever?"  Now go take two sixpacks and call me in the morning.
    
    Doogie Dickstah, M.D.
    

I just had two Elm City Ales with lunch.  Fine, fine afternoon for a
brew or two.

Coupled with the high temps out there now, I feel like going home, 
getting out my book of Mark Twain, and popping another brew,
and sitting in a lawn chair reading till the sun goes down or it
gets too cold -- one or the other......

'Saw

       'Saw,
         I'm gonna go out and drink 'til I sound like Mark Twain...Or
    maybe 'til I feel like a lawn chair...Not sure which :^>
    
    Bull~
    

    Well, Hawk, I supposedly didn't see you at the supposed game.  I looked
    for you before the game and during half-time.
    
    Great game for the Hillies, they beat Everett 89-49, I think.  They
    advance to the semi's where they play Peabody, no site announcement
    yet.  Everett had a very good player at guard, but no speed and no
    bench.  Haverhill just ran them off of the court with their man-to-man
    and fast breaks.  The kids looked pretty coolheaded for the most part.
    
    Kerrie did the color for the cable TV.  It was a delayed broadcast, but
    I didn't see it.  Hopefully, it will be rebroadcast so I can listen in.
    
    If was a good crowd for the girls, too.  Not packed, but pretty good
    anyway.
    
    A big upset with the boys was Lawrence Central Catholic beating Lowell,
    the #1 seed.  With Lawrence High being #2, it looks like Lawrence is
    well represented in the semis.  I haven't seen a schedule yet.
    
    Lee

    Boys Division 1 North has Malden vs Central Catholic at Salem tomorrow
    and Lawrence vs Everett at Salem on Wednesday.  The winners will play
    each other Saturday at UMass Boston.  In girls hoops, Haverhill plays
    Peabody at North Andover Wednesday, Burlington plays Methuen at North
    Andover on Thursday and the winners play for the title Saturday at
    North Andover.
    
    Lots more school sports going on, too.
    
    John

         So Bill, what's the word on this kid Derrick Kellogg who is bound
    for our hallowed State University?  UMASS hoop junkies need to know the
    specifics, such as height, weight, postion, scoring average, alma
    mater, GPA (will he project?), how did he play against Central, any
    insanity in the family, etc.
    
    Russ

    
    	re: Scoop on Kellog
    
    	Kellog has been a pretty good player over the last 3 years
    averaging over 20 a game.  His main problem is that he happened to be
    playing in the same city as Travis Best, and Travis got most of the
    Press.
    
    	Kellog is 6'1-2'' and plays the off guard spot.  He's a heady 
    guard that can shoot.  Main flaw is that he is slow..according to
    what I've seen of him.  
    
    	He's a great team player, has a good head on his shoulders and from
    all accounts is very coachable.  Since he is attending Cathedral High,
    I don't see a problem with him being a prop 48.  To get into Cathedral,
    you have to take a test, so the kids that attend there score good on
    their SAT's.
    
    	Kellog got about 5 bites from Div. I with UMASS and Siena being 
    his top two.  He chose UMASS supposedly because of the coaching and 
    not because it was close to home.
    
    	As for his performances against cross-town rival Central, I can't
    really say to much.  The only game I saw was last year and he stunk the
    joint out bigtime and Cathedral got burried.  This year, he played 
    better against Central with a more complete game.  He had a lot of 
    assists in their first meeting, and played well in the second meeting.
    But these games are not a good measure of his play because Central is
    just so much better at the other positions that they can just shut 
    Kellog down and win the game.
    
    	Kellog is O.K., but I doubt that he will start for UMASS anytime 
    soon.  His sophomore year should really tell if he's got the stuff or
    not.  Overall, I think he can help UMASS but he will have to improve.
    Then again, what do I know.  A few years ago, I saw Vinny DelNegro
    play summer ball and said he would never make it at NC State, but look
    at where he ended up.  So anything is possible.  Kellog just needs some
    work/experience before making an impact at UMASS.
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

    Kawk, any truth to the rumor that the Clemsuck refs were tuning
    up for the AssCC basketball tournament by reefing last night's game?

    REK

    Sounds like nothing more than_a excellent loss to me Hawk.
    
    Sorry,
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Actually, the kids had a very good season, but ran into a fine Peabody
    team.  Before the game, it was touted as a game between two pretty
    evenly matched teams.  The final score kinda agrees with that.
    
    While the Hillies didn't box-out as well as they usually did, it may
    well be that the Tanners just outplayed them for boards.  
    
    It came down to the wire, Haverhill with the ball and about 13 seconds
    left, down by two.  They had just forced Peabody to turn it over
    because of the 30 second clock.  They then got off two clean shots. 
    Neither dropped, and that was the game.  
    
    No complaints about the refs that I've heard about, just a great game
    and the best team won.
    
    Peabody now faces the winner of last night's game between Burlington
    and Methuen.  I haven't got a score on that yet.
    
    lEe

    Basketball Sectional finals this weekend:
    
    Boys Hoops:
    
    Division 1 North:	Malden vs Everett
    Division 2 North:	Acton-Boxboro vs Charlestown
    Division 3 North:	Wayland vs Mission
    Division 1 South:	Catholic Memorial vs Brookline
    Division 2 South:	Sharon vs Burke
    Division 3 South:	Harwich vs Boston Cathedral
    
    Girls Hoops:
    
    Division 1 North:	Methuen vs Peabody
    Division 2 North:	Wakefield vs Concord-Carlisle
    Division 3 North:	Tyngsboro Notre Dame vs Presentation of Mary
    Division 1 South:	Brockton vs Whitman-Hanson
    Division 2 South:	North Attleboro vs Westwood
    Division 3 South:	Medfield vs Seekonk
    
    The Eastern Mass title games will be between these sectional winners at
    Boston Garden on either Tuesday or Wednesday with the state title games
    taking place at the Centrum on Saturday, March 16.
    
    Because I read neither the Worcester Telegram nor the Springfield Union
    I have no idea what's going on in either Central Mass or Western Mass
    
    Hockey:
    
    Division 1A:
    
    This is a double elimination tournament consisting of the top 8 teams
    in Massachusetts.  This year's tournament started with the following: 
    Catholic Memorial, Danvers St Johns, Boston College High, Matignon,
    Medford, Reading, Arlington and Billerica.  The Catholic schools all
    won their first round games.  CM and BC High won the next games and
    then St Johns and Matignon eliminated the remaining public schools. 
    Last night, CM eliminated Matignon and St Johns beat BC High.  St Johns
    and BC High play each other tomorrow with the winner to face CM at
    Boston Garden on Monday night.  If CM wins that game, then they win the
    title.  If CM loses, then the final game will be on Friday night, March
    15 at Boston Garden.
    
    Division 1 semifinals:
    
    Barnstable vs Don Bosco and Watertown vs Brookline.  The title game is
    sometime next week at Boston Garden.  No one from either Central Mass
    or Western Mass is on this level in hockey.
    
    Division 2 semifinals:
    
    Lincoln-Sudbury vs Archbishop Williams and Austin Prep vs Franklin. 
    The Central Mass title game was played last night between Shrewsbury St
    Johns and St Peter-Marian but I don't have the score.  Don't know what
    happened in Western Mass.
    
    Division 3 semifinals:
    
    Shawsheen vs Westwood and Northeast vs Charlestown.  In Central Mass,
    Oakmont played Hudson.
    
    John

    
    Boys Hoops:
    
    Division 1:  Burncoat vs North Middlesex
    Division 2:  Southbridge vs Westboro
    Division 3:  Hopedale vs Uxbridge
    
    Girls Hoops:
    
    Division 1:  St.Peter-Marian vs Wachusett
    Division 2:  Barlett vs Oxford
    Division 3:  Lunenburg vs Bromfield
    
    Hockey Semifinals:
    
    Division 2:  St.John's (Central) vs Springfield Cathedral (Western)
    Division 3:  Hudson (Central) vs St.Joseph's (Pittsfield) (Western)

    The Methuen girls beat Peabody on Sat to qualify for the East finals,
    to be held tomorrow night at the Gahden.
    
    The Merrimack Valley Conference (MVC) now has been represented in the
    East finals for 5 of the past 6 years.  Methuen won it in 1986,
    Haverhill won in 87, 88, and 89.
    
    Funny how things work out.  Haverhill beat Methuen in both of their
    encounters this year, then lost to Peabody.  Methuen then turns around
    and beats Peabody.  I guess they've peaked at the right time.  They are
    always one of the iron teams of the MVC.
    
    lEe

    State Tournament Pairings:
    
    Boys Hoops:
    
    Division 1:	Catholic Memorial vs Everett
    		Springfield Central vs Worcester Burncoat
    Division 2:	Acton-Boxboro vs Sharon
    		Wahconah vs Westboro
    Division 3:	Harwich vs Wayland
    		Holyoke Catholic vs Hopedale
    
    Girls Hoops:
    
    Division 1:	Brockton vs Methuen
    		Springfield Cathedral vs St Peter-Marian
    Division 2:	Concord-Carlisle vs North Attleboro
    		Oxford vs Southwick
    Division 3:	Seekonk vs Tyngsboro Notre Dame
    		Lee vs Lunenburg
    
    Hockey:
    
    Division 1A: Catholic Memorial vs Boston College High tonight.  If CM
    wins they win the title.  If BC High wins, they play again on Friday.
    
    Division 1:	Barnstable vs Brookline for the State title
    Division 2:	Archbishop Williams vs Austin Prep with the winner to play
    Springfield Cathedral for the State title
    Division 3:	Northeast vs Westwood with the winner to play Pittsfield St
    Josephs for the State title
    
    If anyone wants a score for a sectional final game, let me know.
    
    John 

    GO LUNENBURG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    REK

    In hockey action last night, Catholic Memorial won the Division 1A
    state title with a 5-2 win over BC High.  Archbishop Williams won the
    Eastern Mass Division 2 title with a 9-3 win over Austin Prep and they
    go on to play Springfield Cathedral on Friday for the State Title. 
    Westwood beat Northeast 4-2 to capture the Eastern Mass Division 3
    title and will play Pittsfield St Josephs on Friday for the State
    Title.
    
    John

    Last night's action:
    
    Girls Division 3:  	Lee 66		Lunenburg 58
    Lee vs the Notre Dame - Seekonk winner Saturday at 1045
    
    Boys Division 3:	Wayland 59	Harwich 57
    Wayland vs the Holyoke Catholic - Hopedale winner Saturday at 1230
    
    Girls Division 2:	North Attleboro 50	Concord-Carlisle 36
    North Attleboro vs the Southwick - Oxford winner Saturday at 230
    
    Boys Division 2:	Wahconah	50	Westboro 47
    Wahconah vs the Acton-Boxboro - Sharon winner Saturday at 4
    
    Girls Division 1:	Brockton 92		Methuen 63
    Brockton vs the Springfield Cathedral - St Peter Marian winner Saturday
    at 545
    
    Boys Division 1:	Springfield Central played Worcester Burncoat last
    night, no score available.  The winner of that game plays the Catholic
    Memorial - Everett winner Saturday at 730.
    
    John

    Central crushed Burncoat 74-54.  Travis Best with 33 for Spfld.
    
    NAZZ

    
    	I was at the Central/Burncoat game last night...largest crowd to
    see a high school game in western Mass., 7500 people!
    
    	Don't let the score fool you, because it was a closer game. 
    Burncoat played well in the first half but were hurt when a key player
    got in early foul trouble.  Of course he was trying to gurad Travis and
    made some really stupid attempts to steal the ball which failed.  
    
    	Burncoat's main problem was the fact that they don't have a bench
    while Central got good bench play from 2 subs.  In the second half,
    Central was just to tough, both at the offensive and especially at the
    defensive end.  Central's center, Jessie Jackson had 8 blocks and
    really intimidated the whole Burncoat team.  At one point, he blocked
    two dunk attempts by Burncoat players.  The guy is an incredible leaper
    and erases just about any layup attempt.  Central also had exceptional
    play from their guards in Best and Padilla.  Padilla had 8 steals while
    Best has 33 points, 7 rebounds, 8 assists along with 5 steals.
    
    	Simply put, this current edition of Central is a lot different 
    than last years.  Best has gotten better (according to the Burncoat
    players) and they now have a center who is a rejecting machine!  With
    this current lineup, Central could win the state title.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    
    p.s. anyone wanting a decent show should check out Central's warmup
    drills.  They have at least 7 guys that can dunk with ease.  Of course
    you can't dunk in warmups, but it is pretty impressive to see guys 
    dropping the ball in from behind their head, under the hoop and other
    various postions.  All this with the tallest member being 6-5''.  They
    have one guy who is about 5 9-10'' that can slam easily.  He was their
    CENTER last year!
    
    

    As promised in the College Basketball note, I now side-track the
    Mass playoffs discussion :-)
    
    The budget struggles in our public school systems are creating some
    real, major messes.  *ALL* extracurricular activities are at risk.
    Basic educating isn't being done.  At some level, in order to succeed
    in academics, a student has to believe that he/she *can* succeed
    at something!  (I'm speaking from experience here.  I *failed* [F's,
    not D's] 3 of 4 academic subjects my freshman year of high school.)
    For many students, the first taste of success comes in an
    extra-curricular activity.  The results need to spill over into
    the classroom, not detract from it.  Coaches at the high school
    level need to realize that they are educators first, and that academic
    progress is necessary in order to succeed at anything.  Even sports
    requires skills that are also used in the class room - memorization,
    concentration, basic math and reading.  
    
    Funding for extra-curriculars may have to come from parents groups,
    booster clubs, and the like.  I participate in a couple of those,
    in order to keep activities going at my son's school.  Again, focus
    on what you can do as an individual.  Try to make a difference in
    a few kid's lives.  
    
    As a parent, the single biggest variable in whether or not *your*
    kid gets an adequate education in *whatever* school he or she attends
    is in how much attention, time, and energy you put into being known
    at your child's school.  Go to games.  Meet your kid's teachers.
     Ask about homework.  Read yourself.  Look up answers when your
    kid asks questions.  Understand how your kid learns best, and make
    at least some spaces available to him or her where he or she can
    succeed.  Know who his/her friends are, what they are interested
    in.  You'll wind up with great kids that you can be proud of.
    
    A&W

    In last night's action:
    
    Everett 72		Catholic Memorial 65
    Everett plays Springfield Central on Saturday
    
    Sharon 77		Acton-Boxboro 74
    Sharon plays Wahconah on Saturday
    
    No score available for Holyoke Catholic vs Hopedale to see who plays
    Wayland.
    
    In girls action:
    
    Notre Dame 50	Seekonk 39
    Notre Dame plays Lee on Saturday
    
    Southwick 59	Oxford 43
    Southwick plays North Attleboro on Saturday
    
    No score available for the Springfield Cathedral - St Peter Marian game
    to see who plays Brockton on Saturday.
    
    John

    In Division 3 hockey, Westwood beat Pittsfield St Josephs 4-2 to win
    the State Division 3 Title.
    
    John

    
    St Peter-Marian won last night. Don't remember the score.
    
     Jim

    53-52, I believe, Jim.
    
    lEe

    Hockey results:
    
    Division 1:	Barnstable 4	Brookline 2
    		Archbishop Williams 9	Springfield Cathedral 2
    
    Basketball results:
    
    Winners were Springfield Central, Sharon and Wayland in boys games.
    In girls games, Brockton, North Attleboro and Lee.
    
    John

'Tis the next season.

My son came up to me last night with an impossible (to me) to answer question,
so I pose it to the good folks here......

The track team at Medway this spring is hurting.  My kid is the only
hurdler they have.  MIAA regulations state that no athelete may compete
in more than three events, and that no more than 2 can be in the same
discipline (i.e. either 2 track events and 1 field event, or 1 track
event and 2 field events).  Coach's logical conclusion is that Dan runs
the two hurdling events and probably the long jump.  The difficulty is
that he would like to at least *try* a number of other events, including
some middle distance running stuff, javelin, high jump, and pole vault.
I have a sneaky suspicion that he would be pretty good in those running
events -- possibly even better than he is at hurdles.

His impossible question:  How can I get a chance to do some of these?
What do I tell the coach?

Any ideas -- or is he simply SOL?

A&W

    A&W,
    
    I've ben involved in track since I was about 12 or so.  The dilema your
    son faces is one that unfortunately, is happening everywhere - esp. in
    track and field.  Participation is lacking.  
    
    Anyway, he should be able to try other events.  My advice is for him to
    focus on the hurdles, and feel the coach out.  Ask about competing in
    a relay race (get to run the quarter mile, for instance).
    
    Does your son go out for (or does the school have) indoor track?  If
    yes, have him try some stuff there.  The coach should be receptive to
    his trying different stuff.  But, I also see the coach's point - only
    one hurdler is tough....
    
    More later, have a meeting.
    
    JD

    A&W, have him switch jerseys and participate in as many events as he
    wants.  
    
    :^)
    
    Mark.

    A&W,
    
    Specifically what hurdle events does he compete in?  120H, 180L, 330I?
    ( I think those are the only ones they do).
    
    My take on it is if he does the 180 lows, the coach could (if 
    motivated) train another member of the team for the event and your son
    could experiment.  After all, you said that he could be better at other
    events than the hurdles.  Maybe some other runner could find himself
    better at that event.
    
    (speaking from experience, I went from the 50 and 100yd. dash in
    HS to the 180 lows and set a school record in the hurdles.)
    
    Like JD, I encourage your son to "taste" as many different events as
    possible (while maintaining a focus towards his present specialty) - it
    makes training and meets so much more enjoyable
    
    
    Kev
    

    Alison, I'm surprised that none of our track gurus has hit on the
    perfect event for Dan - the decathlon.  I know the decathlon is
    competed in on the high school level in Massachusetts and it's a
    mixture of all kinds of events - running at all distances, hurdling and
    field events.  Dan will end up competing in some events that he may not
    like (ie, shot put) but seeing he's in his last semester of school and
    he has no more opportunity to try indoor track (and Medway doesn't have
    indoor track if I remember you right) it's the only way he can a
    sampling of events.
    
    John

    I'd go along with the uniform switching, but add in a nice
    wig, perhaps a rasta-mon dreadlocks type for when he runs the
    sprints, then a Jim Ryun Marine cut type for the longer events.
    
    Nobody will ever catch him.
    
    NAZZ

    A&W,
    
    Also, have your son good-naturedly kid with the coach about trying
    other events.  In high school we had a terrific hudler and high jumper
    - county champ, 3rd in the states - he also sprinted.  But he always
    wanted to run the quarter mile or the half.  Finally, in his senior
    year, our coach let him a leg on the mile relay.  Well he ran a pretty
    good time - but after finishing he went up to the coach and said "Never
    let me do that again - ignore me if I talk to you - let me run  the
    hurdles.."  Coach had the last laugh.
    
    The other option is for him to try running a shorter road race - say a
    5K (3.1 miles) - this'll give him a taste of longer distance running.
    
    Finally, if the coach doesn't bend - and your son is interested in
    trying other events - look for 'all-comer' meets this summer.  They
    have them in different areas (New Hampshire, Boston, Lowell...) - and
    for a modest fee (like 1 -2 dollars an event) your son can try any
    event he wants.
    
    JD

    Nazz,
    
    You got it backwards.  You want him to have the short cut (or bald
    haid) for the sprints - much more menacing, and gives off that "I'm
    bad, I'm fast, and I know it..."  For the long events, you want the
    long, flowing hair.  
    
    JD (who had very long, very flowing hair at one time...)

Thanks, guys.

As John mentioned, it's his senior year.  Medway doesn't run indoor,
or he probably would have run then.  Complicating the picture is that
he's the team captain :-}  [Reason the team is so "down" this year.  
Last spring the soccer team went out for track in order to stay in 
shape for the following year's soccer season.  This year, all the
seniors from the soccer team except my son decided to bag it, since
their soccer careers are now "over".  It's driving the track coach
nuts, 'cause *he* viewed soccer as staying in shape for track!]

The decathalon suggestion is interesting, and I'll *definitely* pass
it along.  I don't believe they run decathalon at league meets, but
maybe there's some other places where he can do that.

As far as I know, they only run two hurdle races - 330 intermediates 
and 110 highs.  He's done very well at both events, we're hoping for
some good times and a slot at state's this year.

A&W

    
    	A little off the current track, but thought I'd update you all
    about my other High School sleeper destined to make a name for himself.
    Remember, I alerted you all to the possibility of Travis Best making
    it bigtime and with his letter of intent to play at Georgia Tech, it
    looks like he could have a decent college career.
    
    	If you remember back, I mentioned a young wrestler in my home state
    from a small school really close to my old high school.  I mentioned in
    consecutive years that this kid had won state championships as a 
    freshman and sophmore, and could possibly become only the 8-9 wrestler
    in Pa. history to capture 4 state titles.  You also have to understand
    that Pa. produces just about the finest wrestler's in the land.  All
    one needs to do is look at the recent results from the US Allstars vs.
    Pa. Allstars to see that the boys from Pa. take their wrestling
    serious.  BWT, that's two years in a row for the Pa. group over the
    best of the rest.
    
    	Anyway, Cary Kolat has completed his junior year being named the
    Pa. State tourney's most outstanding wrestler.  Yep, he has captured
    his third straight state title and his High School record now stands
    at 90+ and 0.  This year, he pinned the ex-state champ in his weight
    class to take the title at 130lbs.  The kid is being called the 
    greatest wrestler Pa. has ever produced which is no small beans in
    the wrestling world.  
    
    	What is unique about Cary is the fact that he has been invited to
    a couple of college tourneys where he has fared quite well.  In the
    Midland tourney, he is only the second high school wrestler to have
    competed and placed 3rd and 4th against men.
    
    	He will be traveling to Vegas(?) for a qualifying meet for an
    olmypic bid.  As I said 2 years ago, he could be a just graduated
    high schooler who is on the Olympic team!  Right now, he is being 
    called the best High School wrestler in the country.  So, keep an
    eye and ear out for this kid, he might just make the Olympic team.
    
    						
    							bill..g.
    

>   JD (who had very long, very flowing hair at one time...)


Does this mean you're a sprinter now JD? :-)

Metz

>                   -< What do runners with beards run ???? >-
    
    Ultras!
    
    Sid (who's had a beard for 23 years)
    

Cut your hair really short.  Cut a few slashes in the side (not more than
3).

Shave.  Leave a 'stache if you want.

Look like you're ready to eat nails and p_ss barbed wire.


You can run WHATEVER you want, cause NOBODY is gonna mess with you.



8^)
'Saw

    He did the "ready to eat nails and p_iss barbed wire" part as a bit in
    the high school musical.  Playing an Army DI for all of 30 seconds.
    
    Scared me -- looked and sounded *exactly* like his dad was in ROTC 20
    years ago. 8-O!!
    
    Actually, the decathalon idea is already under discussion with the
    coach.
    
    A&W 

    Massachusetts will go to an open basketball tournament next year on a
    one year experimental basis.  The tournament in all 3 divisions will be
    open to any school declaring its intention to be in as of an
    unspecified (as of yet) mid-season deadline.  The current format
    allowed schools to qualify if they either had a minimum 59% winning
    percentage, or finished first or second in their league.
    
    John

    The LHS Blue Devil baseball team is 12 (or 13) and 0.  Crushing 
    everyone in their way...

              <<< Note 12.69 by METS::DERRY "Music for pukes." >>>
                          -< Great pitching/hitting >-

>    The LHS Blue Devil baseball team is 12 (or 13) and 0.  Crushing 
>    everyone in their way...
    
    Karen, what else is new?  :^)
    
    Emile Johnson will go down as one of the greatest high school baseball
    coaches in Massachusetts history.  I don't have the exact numbers, but
    his winning percentage is around 90% over 20 something years.  Finally,
    in 1985, LHS won the whole enchilada.  
    
    Maybe John Hendry can dig up the official numbers.
    
    Mark.

    That's "Buggsy", Slasher.
    
    'Cept don't go calling him that to his face.  
    
    I believe there is an infrequent noter in here (Tony Santucci) who
    played on the championship team.
    
    Mark.

    	That's right Mark.  I knew a couple of kids on the team back
    in the late 60's.  The guy had a bad overbite.  8^)  Remember the
    oldest Marchand?  The guy was scouted by the Pirates.  I was good
    friends with his brother Dave.   
    
    				/Don

    St. Johns won it all in '75 under the great performances from Ron
    Darling and Mike McEvilly.
    
    Mike

    Mark, I thought they just won the championship maybe 3 years ago?
    Tony's brother, Steve, played on the team.  Steve was pitching for
    Northeastern but transferred to Assumption.
    
    Yo, Tony.  What's the scoop?  Did LHS win the whole thing in '89 or
    so?

    Ricky Marchand?  Yeah, I remember him.  He was very good.
    
    Richie Kelly, Dick Freda, Dave Malatos, Rick Comeau (who used to work
    here in APO and was drafted by the Rangers), Pete Lineck, Rick
    Daignealt (who works at DEC), Steve Jackson (who works in HLO) are but
    a few of the real good players who played under Johnson.
    
    Mark.

    The Karen Derry K.O.D. works quickly, last night Leominster loses their
    first game of the year 2-1 in 12 innings...
    
    REK

    Yeah, I know.  Lost to Milford and from what I remember reading in
    the paper, it was a fantabulous game.

    Nice going, Karen.
    
    Mark.

    Great job Karen!

    Hey, it ain't like they got blown out or something...  

    re a dozen or so back:
    
    Johnson has only been baseball coach at LHS for about 20 years?  Seems
    like he's been there forever...
    
    
    py

    Well, a part of the state high school athletic system has voted to do
    something stupid yet again.  The Football Coaches Committee has voted
    7-4 to do away with the Super Bowl system.
    
    Basically, what they will do is set the leagues up so there are 4
    leagues in each division.  On what would have been Super Bowl weekend,
    the 2 largest schools in the division will play each other and the 2
    smallest schools in each division will play each other.  There will
    only be 1 post season game per team.
    
    This really stinks.  While the current system isn't perfect because it
    didn't crown a true state-wide champion, it did provide the best teams
    the thrill of playing in a championship game.  It is really going to
    cut down on fan and media interest.  I predict these games won't draw
    anybody.  It doesn't really give the players anything to shoot for. 
    About all it may do is improve scheduling during the season.
    
    It still has to go before the Principals Committee for a final vote on
    Friday.  I hope they vote to keep things the way they are.  I've always
    enjoyed working at Foxboro for High School Super Bowl day and I'll miss
    it greatly if things are changed.
    
    John

They should do it the way they do down here.

There are four classes of school:  LL, L, M, and S, which correspond to
very large, large, medium, and small, based on enrollement.

Every year they have playoffs etc, and it comes down to one of four
championship games.  If I remember right, football is spread over two
weekends -- M, S on one weekend, L, LL the next.  It could be two on
Friday night, two on Saturday.

When it's over, there are four State Champs.

A lot simpler than all that hoo-hah that you seem to have up in Mass....

'Saw

    'Saw, this has been one of my big issues for years and it comes down to
    2 things:
    
    1.  Thanksgiving Day football games.  These tradition-laden games are
    very often the only big crowd a high school football game will draw all
    year.  Schools will not give these games up - period.  In order for a
    true playoff system to work, the seasons would have to start earlier
    and end earlier but by doing so, the schools would have to sacrifice
    the tradition and money of Turkey Day.  Also, there seems to be a
    prejudice against football in Massachusetts - playing too many games
    and starting the season too early.
    
    2.  Geography and travel.  Massachusetts people as a whole are
    provincial and don't like to travel.  Native Bostonians as a whole
    think anything beyond 128 is wilderness (a prejudice taught me by a
    delightful college prof from the Midwest who was appalled at the
    provincialism exhibited when she went to school in Wellesley in the
    forties.  This attitude can be summed up by a hypothetical headline
    from Hiroshima - Boston Man Slightly Injured as Hundreds of Thousands
    Killed).  The population is too largely skewed towards Eastern Mass to
    have truly balanced geographical and enrollment divisions.  For
    example, Leominster, Shrewsbury St Johns and Springfield Central are
    the only true Division 1 schools beyond Rt 495.  For them to play a
    true Division 1 schedule would mean them having to travel all over the
    state and God forbid their boys would have to travel to play a game. 
    
    That's why the system of 3 regional champs has evolved the way it has. 
    It isn't great but it's livable.
    
    I do feel, however, that there is too much of an attitude of "everyone
    should win something and feel good about themselves" that permeates
    education and athletics in this state and that's wrong.  For example,
    when the system was first set up, the Central and Western Mass regional
    winners would play each other while there'd be Eastern Mass finalists. 
    The Central and Western Mass coaches objected to this and wanted to
    have 2 regional champs instead.
    
    That's why it all won't work.  It would take a major, major attitude
    adjustment in this state for it to work with the way it should.  What
    they've done is taken the best system that could work and replace it
    with something that won't work.
    
    John

    Oh, and we are divided by enrollment - Divisions 1-5 in Eastern Mass,
    Divisions 1-3 in Central Mass and Divisions 1-2 in Western Mass.  The
    schools in Central and Western Mass do tend to be smaller than their
    Eastern Mass counterparts.  Other than a couple of schools that are
    true Division 1 schools outside of 495, most of the others are really
    and truly Divison 3, 4 and 5 schools.
    
    John

I see.

It's funny when you think about it, because if you look at a state like
Texas or some of those big states, kids are going to have to travel a lot.
(please note, I have NO idea of HOW Texas does its champeenship).

Or, if you look at Indiana and basketball....


Guess Massa-choooooo-setts needs to come up to speed.  The only REAL
travel problem I'd see would be Nantucket and Mahthah's Vinyahd....


JMHO,
'Saw

    Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard do just fine.  They either take the
    ferry and make overnight trips, or fly.
    
    John

Hey John, who would I scribe a letter to if I wanted to flame someone in 
"authority" on this.  As an alumnus and supporter of my local high school 
football team, I think this sucks.  I knew changes should be made but 
puhleaze...

Scott

    >Basically, what they will do is set the leagues up so there are 4
    >leagues in each division.  On what would have been Super Bowl weekend,
    >the 2 largest schools in the division will play each other and the 2
    >smallest schools in each division will play each other.  There will
    >only be 1 post season game per team.
    
Can you explain this a little as well??  Do you mean every team plays one post 
season game, and it is determined by size of the school and not performance???
That can't be right.

Scott

    I didn't explain myself really clearly on that one.  The league
    champions will play each other.  In other words, Division 1 in Eastern
    Mass now consists of the Greater Boston League, the Catholic
    Conference, the Merrimack Valley League and the Big Three.  The Big
    Three champ would play the GBL champ and the Catholic Conference champ
    would play the Merrimack Valley champ and that would be it.
    
    Scott, the plan hasn't been officially adopted yet.  It has been
    recommended by the football coaches to be brought to a vote by the
    entire MIAA.  The MIAA is located on Maple St in Milford but I don't
    know the exact address.
    
    John

    
    Does anyone have the Worcester Telegram at work today ? The reason I'm
    asking is the baseball district pairings were suppose to be announced
    last night. I was wondering when and where my son's high school team
    was playing. If someone could post the pairing, it would be helpful to
    me.
    
        Jim
    

    
    Div. I
    
    Today  Doherty vs. South   Foley stadium
    
    Monday   Above winner at Leominster   3:30
             Fitchburg at Holy Name
             N. Middlesex at Milford
             Tantasqua at St. John's
    
    Semifinals Wed. at Holy Cross  1:00 and 4:00
     
    Finals Sat at Holy Cross June 8 4:00
    
    
    Div. II
    
    Saturday  Nashoba at Northbridge 2:00
              Shepherd Hill at Minuteman
    
    Monday    N/N winner at Clinton 3:30
              SH/M winner Voke
              Westboro at Keefe Tech
    
    Semi's Foley Stadium Wed 1:00 &4:00
    
    Final at Holy Cros Sat 8th 12:00
    
    
    
    Div. III
    
    Today Quabog at Hudson Cath 3:30
    
    Sat  St. Mary's at Grafton 2:00
    
    Sun  Tahanto at Millbury 2:00
         Murdock at Blackstone
    
    Mon  Q/H winner at Narragansett 2:00
         SM/G winner at Nipmuc
    
    Semi's Tues at Holy Cross 1:00, 4:00
         
    Final Fri at Holy Cross Jun 7 3:30
    
    

    
    Looks like a great week for Holliston. Plugging for a fourth straight
    Dalton trophy, the baseball, softball, and tennis teams are all still
    in the title hunt. Two former players were drafted by professional
    teams this week and one of current seniors had a local kids dream
    come true when he was drafted in the fifth round by the Red Sox.
    
    

>                   -< A great sports town continues to win >-
    
 You've obviously heard about the Blue Devils...   

    Milford beat Leominster 3-2.  The softball team lost too.

    This is a Hoot Gibson Memorial Note:
    
    
    Melody Fairchild (yes, she's finally a SENIOR), became the first High
    School girl to be named Colorado Athlete of the year by the Denver
    Athletic Club.  Fairchild is the USA's premier girls distance runner.
    Her season bests (national bests) were 9:17.7 in the 3000M and 9:55.92
    in the 2-mile.  
    
    Melody has narrowed her choices down to Oregon and Montana State. 
    Oregon is a long time track powerhouse, Montana State is well known for
    its cross country and distance running teams.  Either will be a 
    good choice - but Oregon will provide Melody with more exposure and
    better competition.
    
    JD

Was watching ESPN (or maybe SPORTSCHANNEL) this weekend, and saw a tape of the
Bolder Boulder People's Race, in which Melody won the womens race.  She really 
dominated, and it looked a little funny, since she is so tiny.  I just hope she 
doesn't burn out, since her future looks so bright.

=Bob=

        <<< Note 12.101 by TNPUBS::MCCULLOUGH "Lindsey is walking!!" >>>
    >         -< The hottest high school runner since Jim Ryun???? >-
    
    Uh, Lynn Jennings would have something to say about that, right JD?
    
    Mark.

    Mark.
    
    Lynn Jennings isn't a high school runner.  I think Bob is close to
    comparing Melody with Ryan.  I'd guess Melody is the hottest young
    (pre-college) female distance runner we've seen since Mary Decker. 
    Decker, of course, set all kinds of records starting at the age of 10
    (over-work at such a young age caused all kids of injury problems -
    robbing Decker of prominance as a high schooler...)
    
    
    Fairchild is a step behind the women's elite - Jennings, Weidenbach,
    Jones, etc - but she is a shining star.
    
    Being from high altitude country can only benefit her - I will be
    interested to see if she branches out to the international scene soon -
    weather/altitude changes could challenge her psyche.
    
    Personally, I hope she chooses Oregon as her school.  Broaden her
    horizons.   She might be a smaller duck in a big pond at Oregon, and a
    big duck in a small pond at Montana State - it will be interesting.
    
    Jennings, FWIW, has been awesome.
    
    With the Olympics nexted year, it will be interesting to see if
    Fairchild is ready to claim a spot - or if 96 in Atlanta is in her
    future...
    
    JD

    The local high school season is winding down and will be over this
    weekend, except for track, which is already over. 
    
    Baseball has crowned its sectional champs and is in the state semis:
    
    Division 1:  Andover vs Norwood and Westfield vs Milford
    Division 2:  Stoneham vs Westwood and Westboro vs Wahconah
    Division 3:  Hamilton-Wenham vs Abington and Narragansett vs Ware
    
    Softball has crowned most of its sectional champs and is mostly in the
    state semis:
    
    Division 1:  Taunton vs Lexington or Bishop Fenwick and Holy Name vs 
    		 Pittsfield
    Division 2:  Danvers vs Case or Walpole and Oakmont vs Hampshire
    Division 3:  St Columbkille's vs Seekonk and West Boylston vs Monson
    
    Boys Lacrosse:
    
    Eastern Mass final, Lincoln-Sudbury at Concord Carlisle
    
    Tennis, golf and boy's volleyball (New Bedford vs Braintree) are all
    still ongoing, as well.  The information about the tennis tournament is
    in the paper but doesn't make any sense, so I won't post it yet.
    
    John

    re .104:
    
    > Softball has crowned most of its sectional champs and is mostly in the
    > state semis:
        .
        .
        .
    
    > Division 3:  St Columbkille's vs Seekonk and West Boylston vs Monson
                                                   ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
    
    GO LIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    py (WBHS '75)

    
    
    
    JD,
    
    >Personally, I hope she chooses Oregon as her school.  Broaden her
    >horizons.   She might be a smaller duck in a big pond at Oregon, and a
    >big duck in a small pond at Montana State - it will be interesting.
    
    
    Good pun if she is going to be a duck.

    Ha - glad someone got that.  Yeah, too bad she isn't thinking about
    going to Oregon State...
    
    JD

    In softball, Bishop Fenwick and Walpole won their respective sectional
    finals.  The state semifinals are tomorrow and the finals are Saturday.
    
    The baseball state semifinals are today.
    
    In golf, Franklin won the State Division 2 title and the Division 1
    title will be won today.
    
    New Bedford won the boys volleyball title.
    
    In tennis, the state semifinals are today with the finals on Thursday. 
    This is for the team titles and the individual semifinals and finals
    are Saturday.  Teams in competition:
    
    Division 1 boys:  Lincoln-Sudbury vs Duxbury and Longmeadow vs Wachusett
    Division 2 boys:  North Andover vs Sharon and Mount Greylock vs Westboro
    
    Division 1 girls: Concord-Carlisle vs Barnstable and Longmeadow vs Wachusett
    Division 2 girls: Lynnfield vs Walpole and Brimfield vs South Hadley
    
    John

    Congrats to my alma mater, Walpole. Those Rebels are more than just a
    good football team.
    
    Thanks, John, for posting the results. Nice to know there are high
    school sports outside of Leominster.
    
    Rich
    

    It's with gritted teeth that I post them, Rich.  My high school didn't
    have a good playoff season, except in track.  The lacrosse team lost
    its first playoff game 27-2.  Last Thursday, the baseball team (9-0 no
    less), tennis team and golf team were all eliminated.  Thursday, June 6
    was not a good day at the junction of Spring Street and Summer Street
    in Danvers and none of them were excellent losses.
    
    I enjoy high school sports.  While I bitch about the long day, I really
    enjoy working at the High School Super Bowls every year.  I gladly
    donate my time to work at the Shriners High School game each year too
    and Rich, I'm glad you appreciate my posting the information.
    
    John
    
    PS - Ignoring Central and Western Mass isn't a deliberate slight but I
    seldom see the Worcester Telegram and never see the Springfield Union

    Rich, I resemble that remark about Leominster.
    
    BTW, the Globe continually fails to acknowledge sports outside of 128.
    Consider SPORTS payback.
    
    Mark.

RE:  .104
  
         <<< CAM::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 12.104                    High School Sports                     104 of 111
FSOA::JHENDRY "John Hendry, DTN 297-2623"            26 lines  10-JUN-1991 14:27
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The local high school season is winding down and will be over this
    weekend, except for track, which is already over. 
    
    Baseball has crowned its sectional champs and is in the state semis:
    
    Division 1:  Andover vs Norwood and Westfield vs Milford
    Division 2:  Stoneham vs Westwood and Westboro vs Wahconah
    Division 3:  Hamilton-Wenham vs Abington and Narragansett vs Ware
    				^^^^^^^
				|||||||||||||

	Alright, ABINGTON, go Green Wave.  

	By the way, I don't think it fair that Abington has to play both
	Hamilton and Wenham, maybe it's a double-header!!!  :-) :-) :-)

	Come on folks, let's hear it for old Manamooskeagan *(sp?)
    
Mac (AHS '71)

* this is the old Indian name for Abington, it means "the land of many beavers"

PS Keep those nasty comments to yourself, this conference is rated G!  :-)

    Lacrosse results:  Lincoln-Sudbury 9	Concord-Carlisle 8 (OT)
    The state championship game between Lincoln-Sudbury and Longmeadow is
    at Longmeadow Saturday at 1.
    
    Tennis results:
    
    Boys Division 1:  Lincoln Sudbury and Longmeadow won
    Boys Division 2:  North Andover and Westboro won
    State title matches are Thursday
    
    Girls Division 1: Concord-Carlisle and Longmeadow won
    Girls Division 2: Walpole and Bromfield won
    State title matches are today
    
    Baseball:
    
    Division 1:  Andover 8  Norwood 4 and Milford leads Westfield 18-10 in
    the 7th inning.  The game will be completed today
    Division 2:  Stoneham 10  Westwood 2 and Westboro 6  Wahconah 3
    Division 3:  Hamilton-Wenham 7  Abington 5  and in 16 innings,
    Narragansett 7  Ware 5.
    
    State Championship games will all be on Saturday.  Softball semifinals
    and the Boys Division 1 golf team championship are all today.
    
    John

    My city's school commitee passed a user fee for High School sports.
    The fee is a flat 100$ for the year for any participants. My daughter 
    who is a freshman played both varsity softball and cross-country. For
    100$ I consider the fee a bargain compared to what the alternative
    would be (large cutbacks in the sports dept.) My question is what are
    other user fee's being accessed in other areas and how much are the
    athletic budgets being slashed thru Massachusetts.
    
    Mike

    Medway will be charging $100 per student per sport next year.  This
    year it was $40 per student per sport.  When Dan started as a freshman,
    it was $20.  I believe that this is aimed at making the sports program
    self-supporting, between the Boosters Club and the fees.
    
    Track season for Dan this year was pretty good.  In spite of a mild
    case of tendonitis, he placed 5th in the state meet in the 330 hurdles. 
    Broke both school hurdling records (1 of them his own) several times
    over the course of the season.  I spoke at length with the girl's track
    coach at graduation (who is a real fan of his) and she felt that if the
    boy's coach had provided better coaching, he could have done
    significantly better.  Apparently there was speed training and work on
    coming out of the blocks that was mostly skipped this spring.  The team
    was pretty awful, 'cause very few kids came out.  Unfortunately, I
    don't expect the track interest to continue  :-( 
    
    A&W

    re .111
    Touche', Mark. Point well taken.
    
    However, not living in Mass anymore, it's nice that John posts a few
    things from eastern Mass since it seems the gist of this topic centers
    on the Leominster HS sports scene with an occasional update from
    Springfield and, of course, Lee's Haverhill updates.
    
    Rich
    

    Holliston's fee is $50 dollars per student per sport with a $150 max
    per family.
    
    

I believe Chelmsford adheres to the $100/sport figure.  The town's schools are
in big trouble.  A prop 2.5 override passed for the schools, but I don't believe
it affects sports.  (It was the only one of five to pass.)

A friend of mine (a DECie, so you know he's not rich) has two kids who play two
sports each.  Needless to say he is dishing out big bucks, and is not happy.  
I doubt any parents want to tell their kids that they can't play because they 
can't afford the fee.  It's really kind of sad.

=Bob=

    Out in California they've put a 'fee' on two teams (Giants are one,
    can't remember the other one) tickets.
    
    On one teams' tickets the fee is .25/per ticket; on the others its
    .75/per ticket.
    
    The money will go towards sports programs for kids and it is only
    in effect for 1 year.
    
    From the interviews conducted; people didn't seem to mind paying the
    small fee.

    High school sports are always targeted for elimination when budgets get
    tight, not that anyone really plans to do away with them but the school
    committees know that if anything will get folks up-in-arms about cuts
    and mobilized to support the schools, it's the proposed elimination of
    sports.
    
    Yesterday's rain caused some problems with the state tournaments but
    some events were played:
    
    Milford won the continuation of its game with Westfield 19-10 and will
    face Andover for the Division 1 baseball title on Saturday.
    
    Danvers beat Walpole in softball 9-0 and is in the state final. 
    Seekonk had a 9-1 lead on St Columbkille's in the second inning before
    the rains came.
    
    Concord-Carlisle beat Longmeadow for the girls division 1 tennis title.
    
    Longmeadow edged Haverhill for the golf title.  Each team enters 5
    golfers and the top 4 scores count.  Longmeadow and Haverhill's top 4
    guys each combined for 300.  Longmeadow's 5th golfer was slightly
    better.
    
    John

Mac,

If they DO cancel HS sports in Worcester, try and tap some of the talent
for WRFC.  Some of our players started playing in HS, either with HS teams
or for the HWRFC themselves.

Tom Faust comes to mind.  He was a defensive back, and gave one of the guys
a ride to practice one day.  He was watching and someone from the team
invited him to work out.  The rest is history...


I'd rather see HS sports kept alive, but if it can't be, then the community
should try and do something to keep the kids active....

'Saw

    Thanks for all the responses. Seeing how bad things are I feel
    fortunate that the fee is as little as it is. I'll be paying about 90$
    for my son to play 3 youth sports so the price is comparable. The thing
    that bothered me the most is that When I went to school 15-20 years ago 
    I played 3 sports for free and had 2 brothers doing the same. It would
    have cost my parents some serious bucks if this happened today. I guess
    that we're not able to give our children as much as was given to us.
    The ME generation lives.
    Mike

    
    	I personally think these fees are pretty minimal if you take a look
    at what you are getting.  Try renting a gym, security, and paying the
    ref's (game fee in Mass is around 100 $$ per 2 man crew for bball) not
    to mention transportation, a practice facility, and uniforms.  Did I
    leave anything out?  And, all this for 100$$ per player on say a 12 man
    roster.  High Schools play around 25 games (12 home, 12 away) so it
    looks like a decent deal.  Although I don't like to see the fees at
    all, but if it means fees to keep the program, then charge a fee.
    
    	I should also mention that if most think that is a tough road to
    hoe, just think about some private schools.  The school where my kids
    will attend does not have a gym, so they have to rent, and they have
    to pay out of the pocket for all of the above.  All this and they still
    don't have to pay a fee, but I as a parent does have to pay tution.
    Now, if my kid could get the same type of education in public schools
    as they will in this private institution and I only had to shell out
    a 100 dollars, I'd be jumping for joy!
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

RE: .121

Milford in the Div. 1 finals??

And Westboro in Div. 2...?

Middlesex_News must be FULL of local-pride stories...

Now if I could only get my PAPER boy to deliver it regularly...!

- Steve

    
    I don't know how other schools systems are funded but here in 
    Michigan it is based on property taxes.  The state is supposed
    to kick in some funds but have been backing away from their
    responsiblity.  
    
    The property tax system sucks because school
    systems such as Detroit where the property values have been
    declining do not get the necessary funds.  The school system
    where my taxes go is pretty affluent.  
    
    The state in it's infinite wisdom decided to play Robin Hood.  Take 
    funds from richer school districts and give it to the poorer districts.
    Of course the district my taxes go to is now short $2 million bucks
    and they are now coming to the voters for a millage increase.  IE:
    My taxes are increasing.
    
    When I was in high school our spring sports program was cancelled
    completely due to lack of funding.
    
    If the funds aren't there I still recommend cutting extra-curricular
    activities than cutting teachers.
    
    While I am on a roll, the way teachers are paid in Michigan stinks.
    They are paid on years of service and not on performance.  My girl
    friend is a teacher.  She teaches in a not to affluent school district.
    She has been with the school district for 5 years and she can't
    afford to go to another district because she will have to take a pay
    cut.   What other job do you know that years of experience doesn't
    get you anywhere?
    
    \pjb

    
    You speak the truth about the fees being relatively low for what you're
    getting, Bill, but the downside is that there are kids out there whose
    parents can't afford the fees, much less private education.  Brand me a 
    liberal on this issue if you will, but if the teams are affiliated with 
    a public school, then no one should be denied based on inability to 
    pay or else everyone should be shut out (especially since *some* of the
    funding for the programs is obviously coming from *everyone's* tax 
    dollars).  I'd have a real hard time consenting to pay such a fee to put 
    my kid in such a program if I knew my neighbor's kid wasn't able to 
    participate...
    
    glenn
      

I basically agree with Glenn on this issue.  It really breaks my heart to 
think that sports could become an elitist activity.  There will be the marginal 
kid who won't be able to go out for a sport because his/her parents can't 
afford it.  Kids will become less willing to try a sport, for fear they won't 
like, and waste the $100.  Who knows, maybe we will lose the next Michael Jordan
or Nancy Lieberman.

On the other hand, certainly better sports than academics.

=Bob=

     Another question regarding "participation fees."

     Do most people think it buys PARTICIPATION or PLAYING TIME?  For
example, would you feel shortchanged if you forked out your money, your kid
got to practice every day, got a reasonable share of attention from the
coach, but didn't get to play much or at all because other kids are better?
Because s/he is an underclassman and the coach prefers to play seniors?  Do
you think the fact that you pay gives you more right to question the coach
on other issues, like position/event preference as well as playing time?  Do
other non-academic activities such as drama, etc. have fees?

     This is somewhat rhetorical for me now, since my daughter is 11 and my
son is 7.  The high school system we are in now does not have participation
fees, one reason being that the athletic director opposes them because they
put pressure on coaches, etc.  But I don't think that they can be put off
forever.

Clay

    
    re: Glenn
    
    	What makes you think that I can afford a private education?  To 
    tell you the truth, I can't.  But I am willing to make sacrifices
    in order to do so.  
    
    	I do agree that there are those that simply cannot afford to go
    the private route, but there are also a lot of people who are counting
    the cost too.  Simply put, there are certain things I want taught to
    my kid, and public school cannot and does not offer this type of 
    atmosphere, so I will sacrifice quite a bit in order to see that my
    kids are educated.  That's not to say "look at me, ain't I wonderful
    for sacrificing..", but that I have a responsibility to make sure that
    my kids are raised a certain way.  And if that way means sacrificing
    certain "things", then so be it.  Then again, the school my kids will
    attend will not refuse anyone that can't pay.  You would also be
    shocked at what it will cost (a lot cheaper then believable).
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

    What someone said a few notes back is very true about the educational
    system being less and less cared about nowadays and there are lots of
    reasons why, but it basically comes down to - people in a given town
    don't really care about their public school system anymore.
    
    There used to be a strong inter-generational compact where the adults
    were happy to pay their taxes to take care of the schools, knowing that
    the people coming through the schools and getting jobs after them would
    take care of the elderly.  And so it went.  Of all the sacred cows
    supported by taxes, education was definitely numero uno.
    
    Now, families are falling apart so each generation feels like it's on
    its own.  How many of us live in the city/town where we grew up?  Not
    too many, I bet.  How many of us who don't live where we grew up do
    anything with the public school?  Unless you have kids in the school,
    probably not too many.  Consider me - I've lived in Clinton for 5 years
    now and have never once been to a school activity.  Even though I now
    live in Central Mass, I still pay far more attention to my own high
    school (and the high school in my home town) than any local school. 
    When I lived in Boxboro, the only time I went to a school-based
    activity was when my own high school played a football game there.  I
    have no children and never expect to have any, so I'll probably never
    get involved with anything to do with education.  Trash pickup, paved
    streets, fire and police, water and so forth affect me far more
    directly than what the local school system is like.
    
    In a given municipality, I'll bet now even the long-time townies who
    don't have kids in the schools don't care.  Attendance is off at
    football games state-wide, and I remember when I was a kid, the games
    were well-attended by both adults and children.  It seems like no one
    cares anymore.
    
    More state-mandated programs take away money from the vast majority of
    the kids.  It is mandated that if a city or town has a kid in it that
    needs special education, for example, then that city or town must pay
    the entire cost of that special education, whatever it takes.  Some of
    these private placements can cost 100K a year or more.  With the
    budgets getting smaller and smaller, that hurts.
    
    School systems I think also have to get more creative in retaining the
    best kids, to keep them from going to the private schools, because when
    you lower the standards, everyone suffers.  They probably have to be
    creative and flexible in using what resources they have and the unions
    have to give a lot back too.
    
    Finally, if the adults don't care and fewer kids are going to the
    schools, then the constituency to support the schools is drying up. 
    It's an example of being penny-wise and pound-foolish, because our
    children are our future.  Even though there are fewer kids around they
    still deserve better than what we give them.  Unfortunately, attitudes
    like mine are probably more the rule than the exception.
    
    John

    Our school commitee did make a stipulation that no athelete would be
    turned down if they had financial problems. The system would be like
    the free-reduced lunch guidelines. 

    For whoever asked, back there a ways.  Next year, all extracurricular
    activities (even drama, science club, and the like) will carry some
    sort of participation fee.  Given Dan's activity levels, I'm real glad
    he graduated this year, 'cause I'd be broke (he participated in 7 or 8
    activities this year, possibly more).
    
    I was in high school 20-some odd years ago, before the days of activity
    fees.  However, it was also an era when there were *no girl's
    inter-scholastic sports*.  Only boys had teams and competed against
    other schools.  Girls were cheerleaders, or if very gifted and lucky
    competed for private clubs, at significant financial burden to the
    parents.  So please keep in mind that you may be comparing apples and
    oranges.
    
    Public understanding of the educational value of extracurricular
    activities is poor.  To some degree, having interesting things for
    teens to do is one of our best defenses against crime.  As currently
    structured, academics doesn't fill that need completely.  Additionally,
    the incentive of participating in a loved activity can be the
    motivation necessary to succeed academically (I'm one of those folks).
    
    Finally, public support for education is waning for a lot of reasons,
    but I would argue the biggest is that as a tax-payer, I don't see that
    the product of the public schools (even in my town, even my kid) is
    coming out with skills and knowledge that are commensurate with the
    investment that has been made in the education.  That poor return is
    what leads me to believe that the education system in this country
    requires significant restructuring, starting with the very basic issue
    of just what result a publicly funded education should provide.
    
    A&W 

    > re: Glenn
    
    >	What makes you think that I can afford a private education?  To 
    > tell you the truth, I can't.  But I am willing to make sacrifices
    > in order to do so.  
    
    I apologize if it appeared that my response was directed at your
    particular situation, Bill.  It wasn't.  I don't have a problem with
    private schools.  It may be something that I may even have to consider 
    myself in the future.  My point was that as a taxpayer and resident of
    a town I really cannot be concerned with what the policies and costs 
    regarding sports are in the private schools, because that's their own 
    business, but at the public level where things are supposed to be (in 
    my opinion) equal for all, if sports are deemed within the reach of 
    some they should be so for all...
    
    glenn
     

RE: a couple back...

Maybe we need to get RedSox/Celts/Bruins/Pats (assuming anyone still GOES
to Foxboro?) involved in this surcharge idea, like the LA teams, to help
support the local school activities programs...  It makes a LOT more sense
than just stacking it on the Property Taxes, like usual -- and it also
beats cancelling the only method we now have to keep kids off the (drug)
streets after school...

- Steve, who_moved_out_of_Dorchester/SouthEnd_to_escape_the_effects

    The last paragraph of Alison's most recent note (.133) brings up a
    point I'd neglected.  I see the school systems, unlike the other
    services a town provides, as being a "money pit."  More and more money
    goes (or seems to go) into it and the results are (or seem to be) getting
    worse and worse.  I know a big part of it is that the public schools
    are being asked to do more things than ever before, even to the point
    of being substitute parents, and I know more kids are working and seem
    to be unmotivated about school now, but when you're not getting what
    you think you're paying for, it's hard to get motivated to pay for it. 
    Private schools are beginning to attract more people now because
    parents know they'll get what they pay for and (at least to hear my
    cousin tell it) the kids will get the moral and ethical training that
    is so often lacking in our public schools today.
    
    John

The town that I grew up in (outside of springfield,MA) instituted pay for sports
back in 1980. Even back then it was ~ $25 Per Person for Soccer, $35 pp for the
ski team and $10 pp for tennis. 

If your family couldn't afford it (not often the case in this fairly affluent 
town) you simply went to the athletic director and told him so and you had the 
fee waived. Nobody else would ever find out. 

I don't see a problem with directly paying to subsidise the sports/activities
your kids actually use. Why should another family pay for my son/daughter to 
play sports when their children don't? 

It seemed to work rather well in our case.....

I would even pay extra for honors courses for my children if they were in them.

I do see a problem with the school systems continually asking for more $$$ every
year with out justifying where the $$$$ goes, but they've learned well from the
state and federal govts in that example.


metz
 

    Should the Town of Acton approve the new regionalization articles on
    their town warrant at Monday night's Town Meeting, Maynard will become
    a region with Acton at the K-6 level, and with Acton-Boxboro at the
    7-12 level.  Boxboro has already accepted Maynard, and Maynard approved
    the article Tuesday night (by a margin of 54 votes, with 2000 in
    attendance).  Now it is up to the town of Acton.  Being a Maynard
    townie there is a sense of identity loss, but it is considered an
    excellent school system.
    
    					Steve 

    Hawk -
    
    I suspect you have it backwards.  You've got an excellent school
    because you have involved parents.  Study after study has shown that
    parental involvement with the schools is the single biggest predictor
    of school excellence.  Individual scholastic achievement is also
    strongly correlated with individual parental involvement.  Tends to set
    up a strong, positive feedback loop as well.
    
    There are two social changes which have had a very negative impact on
    the schools.  The first, much as I hate to admit it, is the return of
    women to the paid work force and subsequent drop in available hours for
    the nurturing parent to be in school during school hours.  The second
    is the inability of the schools to apply effective discipline to those
    students who disrupt the classroom.  Finally, kids walk into school
    with a lot more distractions and problems than ever before, at ever
    younger ages.  As a society, we are relying on our schools to socialize
    our young children in ways they never had to before.  And it takes a
    huge toll on how much educating teachers are able to do.
    
    A&W

    I think another one of the major problems with the perceived lack of 
    return on investment in public schools relative to the past is that
    the things that go into schools are just a hell of a lot more
    expensive, even after inflation, than they were in the past.  That
    includes real estate for new schools, construction costs and teacher
    salaries.  Just as with issues like health care, that's a reality that
    people want to ignore when they demand to know what they're getting for
    their tax dollar.  Maybe when a lot of the areas around here were
    rural farm towns you could pay teachers on the cheap and they'd fit
    right in with the norm, but as the region has become more professional
    and people earn more, you can't very well ask teachers to take
    sub-standard pay and then lament the fact that you're not getting the
    quality of education you used to, can you?  Private schools whose 
    workforce and student population may have special priorities can help 
    to alleviate costs on that small scale, but that doesn't solve the much 
    larger problem of public schools with broader requirements, nor does it 
    mean that public school teachers have necessarily lost sight of their
    objectives for the almighty buck.  
    
    Just as John says that people used to be more involved, I think people
    used to be more responsible and willing to share the wealth when it
    came to their towns.  Maybe it wasn't because people were "better" back
    in the old days and did so consciously, but nonetheless the resultant
    effect was there...
    
    glenn
    

SET FLAME ON

The late John Holt, alternative-educator and home-schooling advocate, stated
that there were three essential functions of society which are served by
the school-system:

1)	To teach kids that `not everyone can be President of GM' (Roger
	Smith must be happy!) -- i.e., that there is a pecking-order, and
	YOU'RE NOT on TOP!

2)	To teach them that `life essentially sucks' -- that hardship and
	heavy labor is a GIVEN in life (DECies know THAT one ain't true ;^}

3)	To keep the damned kids out of sight most of the day -- because
	adults by and large do not like children...

He also went on to discuss all the wonderful socialization-skills we instill
in our children, thanks to the regimentation and assimilation techniques
practiced within the school-system

In the face of all this, it's no wonder how few places like Sudbury
Valley School (where kids from 4 to 18 co-exist in a `school without walls')
actually exist...


RE: the funding issue -

User-fees for participation makes a lot of sense, but only if: (a) there is 
a way of funding at least SOME of those who can't afford them, (b) this 
funding-source is collected voluntarily, and (c) any money contributed/raised/
paid for this purpose does not somehow get funneled into `general revenues'
(the way such 'dedicated' revenues as Social Security, turnpike-tolls, etc.
have for so many years...


SET FLAME OFF

Just my .02

- Steve

    Softball pairings:
    
    Division 1:  Bishop Fenwick vs Holy Name (I wonder if anyone will
    complain about softball being dominated by Catholic schools)
    Division 2:  Danvers vs Oakmont
    Division 3:  Seekonk vs Monson
    
    Tennis:
    
    Boys Division 1:  Lincoln-Sudbury beat Longmeadow
    Boys Division 2:  Westboro beat North Andover
    
    John

    John and Hawk:I usually don't disagree with you knowledgable gentlemen,
    but on the issue of public schools, I'm afraid we part company.
    
    Hawk - you sound proud of the fact that you pay your teachers in your
    private school slightly more than half of what their public school
    counterparts make.  HOW THE H*LL DO THESE TEACHERS MAKE A LIVING!?!?!
    Regular teachers salaries are woefuland you're paying your teachers
    just more than half?  I'm sure you get the cream of the crop to teach
    at your school.  "Yeah, let me teach where I make no money, but the
    parents really care."  Right.  This is one of many reasons why I would
    never let my kids go to private schools - in general, the teachers
    are second rate.
    
    Next, John - one MAJOR reason you seem to ignore in your analysis of
    public schools in decrying the results we seem to be getting is that
    public schools are now mandated by law to providethe best possible
    education for all its pupils - mentally and physically handicapped,
    and students for whom English is a second language greatly raise the
    per pupil cost of education, but parents of children who are less
    fortunate than others know they are lucky to be living in
    Massachusetts.  Costs for private schooling is prohibitive, and
    studies have proven integrating hearing impaired and sight impaired
    children who can adapt (important phrase) into a normal school
    situations provide the best path for success. Those who can't adapt
    in integrated situations are still owed a full chance to succeed,
    and special programs must be provided for them.  A generation ago,
    these children were ignored, sent away to prison-like facilities, and
    rarely given a chance to have as normal a life as possible.  Hawk -
    how many deaf or blind kids, or kids who dson't speak English go to 
    your private school.
    
    Third - I hate nuns.  'Nuff said.
    
    Fourth - user fees are obscene.  Schools are supposed to provide
    children with avenues to express themselves, to expore different
    avenues, to experience as much as possible.  People always point with
    pride to children with lots of activities under their names in
    yearbooks; user fees work to curb that.  Dracut just instituted a
    $50 MUSIC FEE to take music as an elective in the high school!!!
    
    Lastly, our form of government in most towns must change - the Town 
    Meeting is obsolete.  It is a yearly gathering of special interests and
    nay-sayers, whose lone purpose is to protect their pocketbook and the
    hell with anyone and anything else.  It pits young vs. old, parents vs
    single adults, and tends to play to the lowest common denominator.
    Since the pocketbook reigns supreme, and for the most part only those
    people with school-age children are interested in education any more,
    education is no longer the top priority at Town Meetings.  ANd that
    is a shame.
    
    NAZZ

    Nazz - I never said special ed is wrong but I do disagree with
    bilingual education because I think it prevents children from becoming
    a part of our society as quickly as they would if they were forced to
    learn English.
    
    I don't think I ever suggested that special ed be abolished (and if I
    did, I apologize) but I was pointing it out as a reason why perhaps
    school budgets are tight.  If a school budget is limited and if a town
    has to spend a couple of hundred grand off the top for a limited number
    of kids, then it can and will take away from everyone else.
    
    John

    
    To those who think public school salaries are woeful: A comparison of
    the salary of a teacher with a masters and 12 years exp to the time
    put in on the job shows that teacher averaging a wage that would place
    him at $70K+ over a 52 week 5 day year.
    
    Public education needs reform but it most desperately needs parental 
    involvement. In Massachusetts that reform is beginning to see the light
    of day as the business community (including DEC) is building a
    coalition for change. It's only fitting that the state that gave the 
    world free public education should begin to get it's act together.
    

< Note 12.145 by FSOA::JHENDRY "John Hendry, DTN 297-2623" >
<    Nazz - I never said special ed is wrong but I do disagree with
<    bilingual education because I think it prevents children from becoming
<    a part of our society as quickly as they would if they were forced to
<    learn English.
 
    I think bilingual education is very important because it helps children
    to retain some of the culture and heritage of *their* society and
    thus keep a better balance in their lives. It probably does slow
    them down a little from becoming a part of our society, but they
    become a more useful, working part in the long run.
    
    Howie   

    Re:  Hawk - thank goodness the nuns aren't like they were in the '50s,
    or no kids knuckles would be safe!  
    
    As you admit, the teachers in your school are SUPPLEMENTING incomes.
    Must be nice.  How many male teachers do you have?  Any single parents
    on the faculty?  Doesn't sound like a very diverse group.
    
    Re: .147 - You obviously have no idea how much time a teacher puts
    into the job beyond the classroom.  Those figures you stated are
    absurd.  Most (not all, granted) teachers spend 15-20 hours a week
    preparing classes, correcting papers, meeting with parents, counseling
    kids, etc.  It's very hard to put a dollar figure on that, I know,
    but you simply ignored it.  How many of us in Digital take our work
    home?  I do occasionally ( alot the past month!!!), but it's only
    editing.  It's not decided whether or not a kid should be kept back,
    or checking out a new reading series to see if it will challenge the
    brigher kids in the class.
    
    NAZZ

I gotta disagree Nazz. For every teacher you can dig up that spends 15-20 hours 
a week outside the class room, I can find a teacher that puts in 0 hours. Most 
of the teachers I dealt with in high school put in extra time only for things 
they were paid for (coaching, extra curiculars, discipline)

I've got 2 members of my family that are teachers and while neither of them is
going to become rich teaching neither are they underpaid for the amount of work
they do. 

Teachers only work 180 days a year and then it isn't a full 8 hour work day. Most
put in a 6 or 7 hour day tops. The average non teacher probabaly puts in 245 
days a year at 8-9 hours a day.

My family members don't complain about the wages because they knew it when they
chose the career. They both enjoy teaching and the time off it provides them
with. My wife would like to go back to school and become a teacher so don't get 
the idea that I am anti-teacher. I just don't agree with the common idea that
the teaching union has put forward that they are an underpaid profession that
puts in a huge number of hours at home that they don't get credit for. Heck, I
bring work home all the time but I don't whine about it.

If teachers wanted to voice more opinions about large class size and antiquated
course material I would back them 100% but they are definately not underpaid,
especially in the large industrial sections of the East coast.


Metz

    Baseball results:
    
    Division 1	Andover 3	Milford 2
    Division 2	Westboro 11	Stoneham 7
    Division 3	Narragansett 12	Hamilton-Wenham 11
    
    Softball results:
    
    Division 1	Bp Fenwick 6	Holy Name 1
    Division 2	Oakmont 9	Danvers 1
    Division 3	Monson 5	Seekonk 3
    
    Lacrosse
    
    Lincoln-Sudbury 10	Longmeadow 9
    
    Walpole won the girls Division 2 tennis tournament
    
    John

Couple of thoughts:

	Catholic schools pay way less than anybody else because
	first off they can get away with it, and second off, they're
	really not accountable to anyone.

	Regarding the time a teacher puts in, it really depends on the
	subject matter and how good the teacher is.  A *good* teacher
	puts in more time than the 6-7 hours measured in the classroom.
	Assuming a good teacher will rejuvenate lesson plans from year
	to year, and a good teacher looks at what motivates each individual
	then the time spent (not counting summer vacation which is a huge
	amount of time off) can be much more than 6-7 hours in the classroom.

	Sure, you have teachers like the Science guy on Wonder Years, who
	developed his lesson plans in the first year of teaching and has
	coasted on them since, but if you look at a music teacher, for
	example, there's a lot of extra hours that go into the job.  I 
	student taught in a system that had a superb music program, and
	believe me, my cooperating teacher and I spent mucho time after
	school and in the evenings....


'Saw

    The "extra time" spent out of school can be a chicken-egg thing, too. 
    How many teachers locked in at a wage (and a fairly low one at that)
    not at all based on performance take the initiative to do more?  Maybe 
    the truely devoted ones, but not many more.  For the rest of us out in 
    the private sector, that carrot/stick thing is very effective...
    
    Additionally, pro-rating salaries based only on the hours spent at 
    school and completely writing off the summer and other off-days as
    nothing more than teacher vegetative time (thereby turning a $30K
    salary into $70K with the magic of statistics) don't feed the bulldog
    if you've got a family to support.  Should only those looking for a
    supplementary income or other perks effectively be allowed to teach?  
    How would other businesses function under such a restrictive set of
    rules?  Would excellence be the result?
    
    glenn
    

    
    re: Private schools
    
    	When talking about private schools, we tend to lump them all into
    the Catholic religion, but there are many private (religious) schools
    that operate under Protestant guidlines.  I know becasue I happen to
    attend such a church and my children will attend our school.  I also
    happen to referee in a totally "religious" basketball conference that
    envolves Conn. and Mass.
    
    	As for the quality of teachers, our school is mainly comprised of
    public school teachers that have "seen the light".  And I can say that
    they work for a lot less than there counterparts in other public and
    some private schools.  I do know one income earners that teach there
    and make roughly only 1/3rd of what they could make in the public
    teaching sector.  And those people are the majority in our school.
    Single parents and single wage earners too.  Not to many of our
    teachers have a spouce working another job.  
    
    	The question then becomes how do they do it and why?  All I can
    say it that these people are operating with a different mindset...
    they actually care, and in fact are sacrificing a lot of things in
    their life to do this.  A lot of people don't understand it, but then
    again, not many people understand what it really means to trust your
    Creator for everything either.
    
    	But I can say this, and that is after the schools recent testing
    program against California's national scores, our kids tested out
    3-4 grade levels above the national average.  Not to bad for "second
    rate" teaching I'd say.
    
    	I do agree though that both the parents and teachers need to be
    motivated to make sure little Johnny gets a good education.
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

I never implied second rate teaching at private schools....

If I was looking at private schools, there's basically two types.  Prep
schools and parochial schools.   I've always assumed that parochial schools
were Catholic schools.

There are some fine private schools in Connecticut.  Some of them are
quite exclusive.  In those cases, you get what you pay for, provided the
kid isn't being sent there to avoid reform school 8^)

As to Catholic school, I won't comment on that other than to say that the
folks I know who went there turned out to be bigger partiers than those
of us in public school...Make of that what you will.....

'Saw

    I think the current situation is just the tip of an ice berg that will
    roll over the country soon.
    
    Mike Gilbert made an excellent point when he stated that public
    education needs some restructuring. To be blunt, America is the only
    country in the industrialized world with a less than 200 day school
    year. 
    
    What I suggest is that we make public schools a 12 month operation and
    pay the teachers accordingly. I believe this type of system would allow
    schools to be more efficient with their resources and allow them to cut
    back on staffs. Each student would require 200 days to pass a grade and
    then get 1 month off - staggered. Schools would not be faced with the
    cost of closing and re-opening. Teachers would be paid more but start
    off with 2 weeks' vacation and earn more time just like the rpivate
    sector.
    
    More efficient use of resources would allow for funds to be freed up
    for extra-curricular activities.
    
    To me the bottom line is that bold steps must be taken. Heck, at my
    kids' elementary school, the kids made over $35K by gathering aluminum
    for recycling, having paper drives, holding bake sales, selling school
    tee-shirts and doing many other innovative things. These funds were
    used to stock the library better, add outside gym equipment and retain
    2 professional teachers' aids.
    
    John and Hawk are absolutely correct when they point out that parental
    involvement is the key. It works great here in Virginia. But I recall
    residents in the town in Mass I came from took an adversarial role with
    the school board because residents felt their taxes were going up
    solely because of higher school budgets. That attitude led to apathy
    and many programs getting axed.
    
    As I said, it is time for bold ideas and substantial changes. The times
    of putting band aids on the problem and hoping they go away are gone.
    Also, I think that throwing money at the problem also is not the
    answer.
    
    Changes like regional/county schools, increased parent participation,
    longer school years, more efficient use of resources, etc are needed to
    stop to decline in educational quality in Massachusetts.
    
    Rich
    

    
    The Detroit school system is trying a new approach to keep 
    students interested in school.  They figure if they have lost a kid
    by 4th grade they have lost him/her forever.  They are targeting
    black males because they are the most at risk.
    
    The school system is instituting an all male academy for elementary
    aged children.  The ACLU and NOW are getting prepared to sue the
    school system.  
    
    When it was announced that they were going to have an all male
    academy there was 600 slots available.  There was 1200 applications
    for those 600 slots.  Seems that the parents are interested in
    trying this new approach.
    
    There was a town meeting discussing this concept.  Members from NOW
    and the ACLU were there to put down the idea.  The gentleman that
    came up with idea told them "don't tell me what is wrong with the
    idea unless you have a better one".  I have got to agree with him.
    If it doesn't work try something else instead of bringing lawsuits.
    
    Phil

    
    What is the rationale behind thinking this idea will work?  Isn't it
    segregation all over again?
    
    glenn
    

    Rich -
    
    Agree with you.  I read a very telling article that had quotes frrom
    students and parents from different countries.  The prevalent attitude
    of Americans was "I just want my kid to stay out of school and pass" 
    It went on to show that many parents are happy with their kids simply
    getting by.  No push to excel.  That contrasted sharply with countries
    like Japan - where the attitude was to not just get by, but to excel.
    
    Now granted, in some countries a lot of pressure is put on kids to
    perform at early ages - but their has to be a good medium.
    
    A big attitude of American kids was to get by and to make lots of
    money.  Not necessarily work hard for the money, but to sought of just
    have lots of money.
    
    I'd be in favor of longer school terms, and perhaps a couple of long
    breaks in the year, instead of the never-ending summer vacation. 
    Sought of like what some colleges do with Semester/Spring break - but
    make it in Dec/Jan for 3 - 4 weeks, then another break in August or so.
    
    Run the schools more efficiently - make it worth something to be a
    professional educator.  Get paid accordingly, and as Rich said, start
    with 2 weeks vacation and work up...
    
    JD

    Glenn -
    
    I was wondering about that.  TOugh decisions have to made - especially
    in the inner cities.  Do you try any means possible to save kids and
    try to get them to lead a 'normal' educational life?  
    
    Kind of reminds me of two stories - one was on 60 Minutes about a 'boot
    camp' for female prisoners.  Some said it was too harsh, too cruel. 
    But it seemed to have decent results.
    
    Another was about a Chicago Housing project that passed a no-guns
    ordinance.  Too many folks were getting killed.  The ordinance seemed
    to be working, in that death rates and crime rates were down.  However,
    the NRA was putting forth a lawsuit saying the housing project was
    impinging on folks constitutional rights.  
    
    I figured the ACLU would sue when I heard about the Detroit idea - and
    I should have assumed that NOW would.  It's interesting that there can
    be all-female events - but if their is an all-male event, feminists and
    NOW are quick with the lawsuit...
    
    JD

    I saw the school proposal in the Michigan Chronicle, a Detroit paper
    for black affairs (thanks to my great Uncle Robert).
    
    More power to them.
    
    I don't know if people are aware of these stats :
    
    - ONE in FOUR black men between the ages of 20-29 are in jail, on parole,
    or on probation.
    
    - The leading cause of death of black men between the ages of 22-28 is
    HOMICIDE.
    
    - The majority of black homicide victims were killed by another black.
    
    In short, at the age of 26, I'm damn near a statistical ananomally
    because I'm black, male, drug-free, no record, and ALIVE.
    
    And I know that makes some rednecks (Northern and Southern) *reeeel*
    happy.
    
    If an that all-male school is serious about giving me (and my younger
    brother) some company out here - fantastic.
    
    Doc
    

    
      As an another YBM(young black male) bucking the odds, I have to 
    agree with Doc.  Bottom line is that something has to be done to 
    save the American black male from extinction.  I give them credit
    for at least trying something different, instead of writing them 
    off as 'not wanting to learn', 'a disruptive classroom influence'
    or a host of other BS.  
    
    						 glen j.

    I asked a serious question that has received no answer.  What is 
    the advantage to splitting the sexes, especially at the grade school
    level?  Can I assume that it's so they can kick some disciplinary 
    butt that they wouldn't try if females were around (and why not)?  
    What are the specifics of the proposal, and why is believed that 
    removal of female students from the elementary school environment 
    will have an effect?
    
    This is *not* just a constitutional question I'm asking, but a
    practical one...
    
    glenn
     

I tend to agree that the Detroit idea is good.  If it works, perhaps the program
will grow, and there will be a co-ed academy setting or an all female academy,
but for now it is somthing to patch a bleeding wound.  It is tragic and scary
how little of the potential for learning is met in America.  I know many young 
adults who lack basic skills that bottom of-the-line students in other developed
countries know.

I also agree that something needs to be done to increase the value of educators.
If we hope to attract quality people to the institution, we must pay them and 
give them an environment in which they can teach.  If we fail to do this, we
will continue to turn out the mediocre, do-what-I-need-to-do-to-get-by student.

=Bob=

    Glenn -
    
    I have no idea.  I do know parochial schools, and many private schools,
    were same-sex schools.  They tended to have pretty high success rates.
    
    I really don't know what benefits there are, however.  
    
    JD

Less distraction maybe?

It's an interesting concept.  From an educational viewpoint, I feel that
in the elementary grades there should be a major emphasis on the so-called
three-Rs.  If you ain't got a foundation, then learning all the other hooey
that they teach nowadays won't get you anywhere.

Going along with that emphasis, there should be a big effort to find out
how the different students are motivated, and to motivate them that way.
(Ocassionally, that should be varied, so that kids learn to work in different
systems).

Finally, there should be a little bit of that "exploring the world around
you" stuff.


When I was in school, I had teachers who worked me very hard.  They wouldn't
let me skate, and they were always asking for more.  And all of that was
before there was any legislation for competitive teacher salaries...



Someone mentioned vacation.  I think this country needs to get a real good
grip on what the rest of the world does for VC and get us current.  I'm 
not asking for 6 weeks like the Germans get, but I'd settle for a minimum
of 4 to start, then moving up in week incrememnts every five years or so....


More grist for the mill folks.....

'Saw

    
    Glenn,
    
    The following are the reasons given for an all male academy.
    
    1.  Boys are easily intimidated by girls academically at the elementary
        school level.
    
    2.  Most of the boys are growing up with a single parent.  That parent
    	being female.  ie:  There isn't a male role model in the boys life.
    
    The plan is to have men from the business community donate some time
    to assist in the teaching of these students.  They want to instill
    in these kids that a male role model doesn't have to be the drug
    dealer on the street.  Quite a few businesses are allowing their
    workers time off to assist in this project.
    
    Phil

                                                
    Thanks for posting the rationale behind the proposal, Phil...
    
    I freely admit that I'm skeptical of this approach.  I'm not sure that
    it just won't cause more adjustment problems down the road.  I don't
    know if I agree from personal experience with the first assertion  
    (boys intimidated by girls), and I don't see why the school has to be 
    all male in order to bring male role models in to teach and serve as
    examples for the kids.  Nonetheless, for these and other reasons, it 
    might be worth a try.
    
    As far as the constitutional question goes, I have no problem with that
    if the system eventually allows for choice and the opportunity for all 
    to participate (all boys can choose all-male or co-ed, all girls can
    choose all-female or co-ed).  Forced segregation and the absence of any
    freedoms were the constitutional problems with the failed "separate but 
    equal" education policy, and I believe the same problem would exist if 
    the effectively the same system was mandated based on sex instead of race.
    
    glenn
        

    Doc:  black, male, drug-free, no record, and ALIVE.
    
    Not to mention short and obnoxious.
    
    HTH
    
    NAZZ

    In addition to Phil's reasons (I think it's Phil), the reason for
    targetting boys for special attention is because they are more likely
    than girls to drop out later.  This academy is specifically an effort
    to target those students most at risk of dropping out, and set up an
    atmosphere which encourages them to stick with school.
    
    In general, girls (and women) are more verbal than boys (and men). 
    Boys tend to learn better by physically doing things, and large
    motor skills are more developed in boys than girls at young ages. 
    Girls have better fine motor skills, generally.  Traditional classroom
    settings and teaching styles favor the skill sets that girls are better
    at - remember that the first things you are taught in first grade are
    reading (verbal) and writing (verbal and fine motor).  If I were asked
    what the environment should be for boys that I want to have learn to
    love school, I'd argue for an environment where they learned math
    first, through game-playing (!) like keeping scores and generating
    statistics.  Then learn reading by wanting to know the rules.
    
    The constitutional issue could be met by having "high achievement"
    academies which are geared to different learning styles, and slotting
    students based on how they learn best regardless of race or gender. 
    You'd probably end up with seriously skewed demographics in the
    classes, but at least it wouldn't be done for segregationish/
    discriminatory reasons.
    
    A&W

    
    The key to the Detroit plan is that it is by parental choice. If the
    city had said they were making all schools seperate by sex then both
    the ACLU and NOW would have a case. This plan is by choice and gives
    the parent and student alternative forms of public education. This is
    the type of innovation we need to continue to do. 
    
    RE: .171
    
    Scott, I happen to be good friends with Perry Davis, the Assistant
    Superintendent at Northboro. You've gat a good system with good 
    leadership. It's too bad the town can't see it. Maybe someone ought
    to talk to Larry Dorey about running for Selectman again....
    
    
     

    >Scott, I happen to be good friends with Perry Davis, the Assistant
    >Superintendent at Northboro. You've gat a good system with good 
    >leadership. It's too bad the town can't see it. Maybe someone ought
    >to talk to Larry Dorey about running for Selectman again....
    
Yup, the schools are well run which is one reason why they are so highly 
regarded.  I went K through 12 in the Northboro/Southboro school system and got 
to know many of the leaders while there, and those that actually run the 
schools are good people for the most part.  Too bad they won't be able to do 
much with their hands tied.

Scott

    Hands tied or not, high school athletics are always the first target
    for elimination for the budget cutters because they know if anything
    will get the populace up in arms about cuts and vote in favor of more
    new taxes, proposing to eliminate high school athletics is it.
    
    John

    
    Once again I must disagree with you John Hendry. As one who has sat at
    the budget cutting table there were two things that were untouchable.
    Athletics and transportation. Athletics because our parents already
    provided close to 50% of the money (through fees and fundraising) for
    the total athletic budget and transportation for safety reasons and
    legalities. 
    
    Anyone who tells you that eliminating athletics is the right thing to 
    do doesn't know what they're talking about. There are lots of other 
    ways to deal with it but simply cutting them doesn't do it.
    
    

    re -1
    
    IN the town in NY that my folks live, and where I went to High School,
    athletics, transportation, and other services, like new books for the
    library - were the first things cut from the budget.  It was, as John
    said, guarenteed to get the populance up in arms.  Every year we'd have
    a big fund drive, followed by a vote for an auxiliary budget - and
    viola! this budget was always passed, and athletic, transportation and
    the library was saved.
    
    It really differs from town to town, I guess, but in my experiences,
    athletics are cut because it will cause a big uproar.  
    
    JD

    In my town last year a vote for public kindergarten was soundly
    trounced on the basis that people just didn't have the money for 
    it no matter how necessary it might be, and then for about half 
    the cost a new junior high sports program was funded with little 
    opposition on the very next vote.  Now I hear a proposal for next 
    year will be to build a state-of-the-art track facility with one 
    of those modern rubber track surfaces and other amenities.  This 
    is a small town, too.  
    
    In some places apparently sports are a very high priority...
    
    glenn
    

    Mike Gilbert,
    
    I never said sports would actually be eliminated (though they have).  I
    said, where a threat is necessary, the threat is the elimination of
    sports.
    
    John

    Mike,
    
    John is correct. In Massachusetts where you have so many school
    districts, you have a core of people who spend their whole lives in a
    town. They starred on the high school teams way back when. They run the
    town DPW's and can also be seen as Buidling Inspectors, Animal Officers
    and the like. The Chief of Police is probably a townie, too.
    
    So, the school dept figures it needs more money - what better way to
    guarantee it than by threatening to abolish sports? The old jocks go
    nuclear and join forces with the pro tax people to save the honor of
    the old alma mater.
    
    Rich
    

    John, I wish it were so re. athletics in Dracut.  We lost 38 teachers
    this year, after losing 22 last year.  Music, French, and shop are out
    of the junior high, and the high school lost more than half of its
    elective courses.  We're down to one guidance counselor for the system,
    no library professionals, and no buses for kids within two miles of
    the junior high and high school. The total percentage of teachers lost
    to budget cuts in the past two years is 28%.
    
    But the sports program is unscathed.
    
    NAZZ                                        

    What I should have said was this -
    
    Very often, school committees will threaten to cut athletics as a
    purely political tactic.  Whether athletics will actually be cut or not
    is another matter.
    
    John

    Nazz, I'm curious about whether or not Dracut has a user fee for
    sports.  Do you know?  More and more towns are going this route.  The
    old reliable fund-raising just isn't going to work for an entire sports
    program.  It's good enough for paying for banquets and awards, but
    that's about it's long-term limit.  Even cow-chip contests get old
    pretty quick.
    
    Personally, I'm against user fees.  How would a parent feel about
    paying $150. for his son to play football, only to see him riding the
    pine?  Not being a starter or even not playing at all doesn't seem
    quite so harsh when the program is open to all.  Also, what about the
    kid who is really good in a number of sports?  What happens if his
    parents can't swing the dough, particularly when the unemployment rate
    in Mass is one of the highest in the country?  Will he play at all? 
    Will he have to be selective about which sport he can afford?
    
    lEe

    Lee -
    
    As a parent in a town which has user fees, and where they are going up,
    I can answer some of your questions.  The pressure on the coach to make
    sure that everyone has a chance to play goes up, no doubt about it. 
    The result on our soccer team was that the JV team platooned kids in
    and out so that everyone got a chance to play at some level for some
    period of time.  There is a very quiet scholarship fund for those kids
    who's parents really *can't* afford it -- eligibility is based on the
    criteria used for free meals in the cafeteria (if you get free meals,
    you also get free sports).  Some kids do end up having to choose which
    sports they want to participate in.  Those few in that state that I
    know, used the off-season time to work in order to pay the fees the
    next time their sport came up.  It plays hob with a kid's ability to do
    his schoolwork.
    
    Some parents want their kids to have the experience of being part of
    the team, even if they are inept or in a major learning curve, that
    they're willing to pay and have their child ride the pine.  Most such
    parents speak quietly to the coach early in the season.  By the time
    your child is a senior, however, you expect their skills to have
    improved enough that they are playing at least some.
    
    A&W

    Believe it or not Lee, Dracut just installed a user fee for MUSIC!!!
    Yep, if your kid plays an instrument and wants instruction, fork over
    $50.  If he or she wants to be in the band, it's $50 more.
    
    But sports are still sacred cows here.  Why, I don't know, since the
    teams (except for girls softball and gymnastics and boys wrestling)
    sip big-time.
    
    NAZZ

    re .169
    
    Nah, that's the Grenn JIhad picture ... for complete honesty you must
    also add good-looking, courageous, charming, fast, hard hitting, and 
    upstoppable when I go to my right .... :-)
    
    Doc

    Nazz,
    
    Didn't the Dracut football team do really well 1-2 years ago?  
    
    Haverhill is trying to hold off from instituting such fees, but I don't
    know if they'll succeed.
    
    One of the problems I see is in regards to A&W's response.  If a kid is
    determined to be "needy", based on his ability to pay for food and
    sports, does this mean that he can play in 3 sports in a year, while a
    kid who has to pay must then pay for these same 3?  If this same kid
    has to raise his own money, it doesn't seem fair at all.  Perhaps one
    fee for the entire year?  But, that would then be unfair to the kid who
    just wants to participate in one activity.
    
    The whole situation doesn't sit right with me at all.  Kerrie is out of
    HS, so it's not a personal concern.  It just doesn't seem right, no
    matter who the kid is or what the situation is for him, from a
    financial position.
    
    Right now, I'm willing to pay an additional property tax to keep
    participation they way it is, no fees.  However, I've seen the benefit
    of this, and lot's of others haven't, so the majority may not agree
    with me.  And, I'm not talking about any scholarships.  I see the
    greatest benefits as kids learning what teamwork is all about, and also
    their being too busy to get into some of the trouble that plagues their
    generation.  No, it isn't the total solution to drugs and other
    problems, but I'd venture to say that most kids who are into 2-3 sports
    are just too darn busy to hang-out and be tempted to do things that are
    detrimental to them.  Peer pressure can work both ways, and a kid who
    sees teammates doing well in academics can be influenced to try and
    either emulate them or at least improve his/her grades.  Also, the need
    to achieve a certain grade level to participate is a positive
    motivator (it applies at Haverhill, anyway.)
    
    lEe

    Lee -
    
    I happen to be in complete agreement with you, on all points.  I voted
    for a 2 1/2 exclusion (which passed, thank heavens) this spring, and
    would vote for an override at this point, as long as it was dedicated
    to the schools.  And my kid is now out of school as well.
    
    Back-up to your comments about positive peer pressure.  Kids active in
    sports were the top 10 academic students in this year's class.  To the
    best of my knowledge, no junior or senior active in sports has had any
    problems with drugs, excessive drinking, or legal trouble of any sort. 
    Unfortunately, the same can't be said of the entire student body.  The
    values of hard work, practice, cooperation, and determination to
    continue (and improve) in the face of losses that have been learned on
    the playing field have spilled over into academics, and will continue
    to be valuable throughout a career.  I wish I'd had an opportunity to
    play more as a student.  And having a place to be, a goal to reach,
    kids to do things with are a *huge* deterrent to the kinds of trouble
    that result from just hanging around.
    
    A&W
    on the playing field

    Dracut High won the Division 2 Super Bowl in 1988 or 89.  They
    have averaged only four wins a year over the past decade or so,
    though.  But boosters raised $48,000 for lights to play the
    home games on Friday night.  This year was the first year under
    the lights.
    
    BTW - How's Kerrie's rehab going, lEe?  Is she back into sports?
    
    NAZZ

                         
    > There were questions earlier about the reasoning behind some of the
    > private high schools purposely being kept co-ed, and I personally
    > believe distraction is one of the main reasons, if not the main reason. 
    > As silly as it may seem, without the opposite sex there next to you to
    > try to impress (keep in mind the teenage psyche driven by all those 
    > hormones) for 6 hours a day, the kids are more likely to concentrate 
    > on what they're there for.
    
    I agree with what you're saying here, Hawk, but that's why I was 
    questioning the need to implement the program as early as the 
    elementary and middle grades.  I honestly don't remember the girls 
    being that much of a distraction at those ages.  And being one of 
    four brothers in a male-dominated neighborhood as a kid, it might 
    have come as quite a shock not to find out what a girl was until 
    I got to college! ;-)
    
    glenn
     
    

    Nazz,
    
    Kerrie is playing in the summer league at NECCO, for the NECCO entry.
    She's down right now.  Broke her nose in a game two weeks ago, still
    trying to get her shot back, and I suppose she's still a bit tentative
    about really trying out the re-built knee with a sharp turn.
    
    But, she's playing in just about any scrimmage she can find.  Her
    stamina is okay, as is her defense.  Like I told her, to get the shot
    back, she's got to practice, practice, practice.
    
    Thankfully, the break didn't result in any deformity.  It hurt like
    h*ll, and she got a little blackening of the eyes, but that's passed
    and things are improving.
    
    I haven't seen her play in over 1 1/2 years, so I hope to go over there
    tomorrow night and catch a game.  
    
    Thanks for asking.
    
    Lee

    
    >Central Catholic (Catholic all-boys high school in Lawrence, MA) kids,
    >and they are wildmen! :-)
    
       NO WAY!!!!
    
      [And, they're also top-notch students all
    going to top-notch colleges, many with full scholarships]
    
       Well, this part I don't doubt.
    
    
    Dickstah, Lawrence Central Cath., '67
    
    

    "...they are wildmen..."
    
    Dickstah, just because you spent all your non-class time in the library
    with the chess club, that's no reason to generalize about the rest of
    those students who went to male-only Catholic High Schools!!!
    <wink>
    
    Kev (Archbishop Molloy '68)-wild and crazy then, just crazy now
    (married :*))
    
    
    same kinda school, different name
    

    As a member of the first graduating class of Xaverian Brothers HS,
    let me clarify sumpin:  bein' wild amidst a buncha guys is NOT the
    same as bein' wild wif mixed company.  Sadly for the majority of us,
    our Monday morning thrills were supplied by one guy who had a car
    (a '63 Rambler) and a girlfriend who "knew all the moves."
    
    We learnt 'bout such things second hand until junior or senior year,
    then were too shy to do much but make up our own stories for Monday
    morning.  What a buncha dweebs.  
    
    But once school we hit college, it was coeds and package stores beware!
    
    NAZZ

    
    RE: .190
    
    Andover isn't even close to the first system to "tuition" in students. 
    In Holliston we supplemented our budget to the tune nearly $500K from
    tuitions.
    

    Heck, Haverhill was charging tuition for out-of-town students back in
    the '50s.  There are quite a few small towms around Haverhill, and there
    weren't any regional schools at the time.  Haverhill had a High School
    and a vocational school called "Haverhill Trade School."  Both had many
    students from Groveland, West Newbury, Merrimac, Plaistow and a few
    other towns.  They paid tuition, but I haven't any idea how much it
    was.  Then, regional schools became the rage.  Now, students from these
    same towns attend Whittier Regional Votech, Pentucket Regional,
    Timberlane Regional, etc.
    
    What was newsworthy to me is that Andover is actively recruiting
    students from out-of-town, via newspaper ads.  That is something I
    hadn't seen before.  They have the space, and other towns and cities,
    such as Haverhill, are facing overcrowding.  Haverhill, for instance,
    is preparing for an increase at the HS.  Now, it's capacity is much
    more than it's present HS population, but it also houses kindergarten
    children, so less classroom space is available.  If they were to find
    another location for the kindergarten, then they could take on more HS
    students.  But, that's another problem.
    
    lEe

    
    That is something we do routinely but not at the HS level. We often
    advertise openings in our pre-school program in order to be certain we
    have an acceptable ration of regular kids to special needs kids.
    
    

    The High School Super Bowls, at least in Eastern Mass, are dead, at
    least for this year.  Central Mass and Western Mass will continue to
    have them.  There will be 6 divisions in Eastern Mass.  Each division
    will have 4 leagues.  The league champions in each division will make
    the playoffs.  There will be 2 games played in each division on what
    would have been Super Bowl Saturday - between the 2 larger schools and
    between the 2 smaller ones.  The division alignments are as follows:
    
    Division 1:  Big Three Conference, Catholic Conference, Old Colony
    League and Greater Boston League.
    
    Division 2:  Merrimack Valley Conference, Bay State League, Middlesex
    League and Dual County League.
    
    Division 3:  Eastern Athletic Conference, Atlantic Coast Conference,
    Hockomock League, Northeastern Conference
    
    Division 4:  South Coast Conference, Cape Ann League, Catholic Central
    Large, South Shore League
    
    Division 5:  Commonwealth Conference, Boston North, Boston South,
    Mayflower Large
    
    Division 6:  Mayflower Small, Tri-Valley League, Catholic Central
    Small, Catholic Suburban.  For purposes of determining representatives,
    the Catholic Suburban includes independents Weston and Manchester.
    
    This really stinks.  As flawed as the previous system may have been,
    there will not be a single Eastern Mass champion in any division.  I
    predict interest among the fans, media and players will go way down.  
    
    John

    I totally disagree.  I think this is the first of a two-step process.
    THe next logical step is to have the two winner play the following
    weekend.  So what if it adds another game to the season?  This system
    would be much fairer than the former Super Bowl set-up, elimintate the
    dreaded ranking system, and give every conference a chance at the
    Super Bowl each year.
    
    Go for it.
    
    NAZZ

    Nazz,
    
    If they continue the new system to its logical nexted step then I think
    it's fine.  I'm not necessarily sure they will though, for a couple of
    different reasons:
    
    1.  Weather and fields.  The Super Bowl system was proposed long before
    it became a reality.  The MIAA itself prevented it from becoming a
    reality for safety reasons.  They felt that games played that late in
    the season on grass would be dangerous and wanted the games all played
    on artificial turf.  While I feel that playing the second week of
    December has no more chance of snow than playing the first week of
    December does, it's a given that the longer you go in December the more
    chance there is of having been a significant snow.  It's a guarantee
    that the fields will be more frozen.  10 of the 12 games this year are
    being played on grass.
    
    2.  Other sports.  The longer into December football goes, the longer
    the playoff schools won't have their athletes available for basketball,
    hockey, track, wrestling and so forth.  In other words, there will be a
    lot of resistance to extending the football season from the coaches in
    winter sports.
    
    As I've said before, the biggest obstacles to a football playoff system
    in this state are geography and Thanksgiving.  The state is too
    geographically segregated for there to be a true state-wide champion
    because the big schools are mostly in Eastern Mass.  The big schools in
    Central and Western Mass would have to play mostly Eastern Mass schools
    in order to have had a meaningful season on their own level. 
    Thanksgiving is a problem because playoffs can't start until after the
    regular season is over and if the regular season doesn't end until the
    end of November it's too late for a good playoff system.
    
    John 

    
    Anyone have Directions to Oxford High School.
    
    I need them for someone coming in from The Templeton area.
    
    thanks
    
    
    Lou

    
        Take 395 til it becomes 290. Follow 290 to Charlton st., Oxford 
     esit. At the center of town take a right. About 1.5 miles on your
     left. real easy to find.

    
    
    Thanks for the help.....
    
    
    Lou

    
    Back to the issues of user fees. I am a football coach at David Prouty
    in Spencer. We just instituted users fees for athletics. $50 a sport,
    $25 for the second sport, and zippo for the third. So a 3 sport athlete
    will have to pay $75 for the season. My only problem with this is when
    it comes to playing time. I coach the JV's and try to make it a
    practice to get everyone into the game. This season as the preseason
    winds down I am seeing diminishing talents in our freshman class. I
    sometimes have a problem playing a 4'8" 104lb freshman in a game. I
    realize that they are paying the $50 to play, but if this is a close
    game, the kids as well as myself want to win and sometimes during the
    game you will focus on that more than getting PT for someone. I tend to
    award more playing time to the kids who deserve it and for the most
    part, they understand that. But what about the parents. I'm sure that
    they will want to see more PT for there children and we have already
    heard from some of the parents as to how much playing time will my
    child get???????? I still hold on the the ethic that you have to earn
    your playing time, not pay for it. I seem to have myself in the dilema
    of, well does the team suffer for the sake of keeping the parents happy
    or do I go with the flow of the game and see what happens. My thinking
    now is to go with the flow and see what happens during the game. I will
    still do my damndest to get everyone into the game, but it is still
    important to develop the better player for the varsity as well as
    having a reasonably good season. Oh well, only time will tell.
    
    
    Coach Phil

    
    Isn't Templeton in the Gardner/Fitchburg area ? If so, you must take RT
    190/RT290/RT395 to Oxford. I would get off at exit 5 (Depot Rd/Oxford)
    of 395. Bear to the right and at stop sign go right (there is a school
    in front of you).Follow Depot RD. At blinking red light, turn left and
    Oxford High is on the right about 1/2 mile.

    Phil -
    
    One of my approaches as a parent (and my son *didn't* play on the JV
    his freshman year) was that the user fee was so that he got the
    teaching in practice that he needed so that he would improve and
    eventually qualify to play.  You might try that on some of the parents
    - the fee pays for the education that occurs in practice.  When the
    child demonstrates that he's learned what's needed in practice, he'll
    play.  It may not be this season.  In my son's case he played JV in his
    junior year, his choice 'cause he could play pretty much a whole JV
    game or a few minutes of a varsity game and he preferred to *play*
    regardless of the competition level.  His senior year he wasn't a
    starter for varsity the first few games.  By the end of the season, he
    was starting and playing most of the game.  All based on practice
    performance, and lots of hard work on his part.  So long as your
    program really does provide equal practice opportunity for everyone who
    comes out, you shouldn't have a problem.
    
    Except with unreasonable parents  :-)
    
    A&W 

    re .205
    
    I could see that very issue coming up once schools started this system.
    I played on soccer and hockey teams where there were fees, but it was
    generally agreed that A) we would have a limited number of players, so
    that you wouldn't have say 25 guys on a soccer team, when 16 would be
    about the MOST you could have on hand for a game, and B) we would do
    whatever we could to win, but that also means using subs for a fair
    amount of the game. If you have 4 players sharing 3 positions, everyone
    gets a lot of time, even if perhaps the "star" might get a little more.
    
    Of course, these were adult teams, where if you don't like that idea,
    you were free to play somewhere else (which I eventually did when TOO
    many players were added).
    
    Soccer wasn't too big of a deal, since the fee per season was around
    $20-$25. For hockey, ice time is considerably more, so this is
    certainly a more legitimate issue. If I'm paying +- $100 to play, I
    want to play! The key is to play at the right ability/seriousness
    level, so all players would me more or less able to hold their own on
    the field/ice.
    
    For adult teams, this works fine, but I dunno about the high school 
    level. Perhaps there should be a refund for players who don't get a
    "significant" amount of PT? (sounds like Bruno's 145-game contact
    renewal?) The bottom line at the Freshman/JV level is to encourage 
    participation, so it seems that marginal players could at least find a
    place on the Special Teams if there isn't a lot of garbage time. With 
    a varsity team, it is assumed that anyone who makes the team would be 
    "good" enough to play.   
    
    Tom 

    
    
    Re .206
    
    yes Templeton is in the Gardner Fitchburg area......
    
    
    Thankyou for the instructions......both sets....
    
    
    I'll give them to the person who requested them......
    
    
    Lou
    

    RE. .207 - .208
    
    	Thanks for your replys. Its good to hear from a parents point of
    view. Most of the kids work hard in practice and will be justly
    rewarded. I had to deal with a parent last year about one particular
    game where her son played a total of 1min 43sec (yes she times him) and
    she let me know..... The only good part about it is that she is my
    sister-in-law and the player didn't really mind because we won and he
    caught the 2pt conversion...... My nephew is really caught up in the
    team concept that we try and preach. Unfortunatly, he didn't keep his
    grades up in the 4th term and cannot play this year. Parents rules, not
    the schools. I sometimes get caught up in the game and forget to get
    everyone playing time and this year I have about 30 jv's to worry
    about. Hopefully, I have as good a group of parents as their kids are.
    
    
    Only time will tell. First game is 9/23 vs Tantasqua.
    
    Go Panthers..............Make me look good ;^)
    
    Coach

    Cliff -
    
    Our soccer coach has the same problem of forgetting about the time for
    subbing kids.  His solution is to have a team manager (non-player) keep
    track of who has played and what the time is.  The manager "nudges" him
    at predetermined intervals to say "time to sub" and "Johnny hasn't
    played yet".  
    
    Hope it helps.
    
    A&W

    
    
    Well, I made it thru my first JV game without a problem. We wom 8-0 and
    each of the athletes played. Not a single parent commented about lack
    of playing time for their kid. I try to make it a point after games to
    speak to parents and get their feelings and the like. It all worked out
    well. I told the team that I would play all of them and if in the
    second half there were still some who haden't played to let me know. I
    told them that I sometimes get caught up in the game, which I did
    Monday with it being so close. I did have a couple of kids who only
    played 1 or 2 downs and I appolagized to them loudly so the parents
    could hear :^) Hopefully, this is the way all the games will be. With 9
    left it can be difficult.
    
    
    Coach
    

    	For those of you who live in Central Mass take it upon yourself
    to see a Fitchburg High game this year.  They have a running back
    called Zack McCall who is one of the most exciting high school runners
    I've seen in years.  He's only a junior and already Paterno wants
    to have him down to the Penn State campus for a weekend.  Fitchburg
    plays Brockton on October 25 and for the second time in three years
    the Boxers are going to leave the Twin Cities with their crying
    towels soaked.
    
    				/Don

    
    Holliston threepeats as Dalton Trophy winner!!! 4th Dalton in 5 years.
    
    

    
    I had to sit thru the most difficult team meeting today in my short
    coaching career. We were informed by the powers that be (School
    officials and MIAA) that we must forfiet our first game, which we won,
    because we had an academically ineligible player. This player had
    failed 2 courses last year and was a quarter of a credit short of being
    eligible for this season. He told us today that he was never informed
    of this, was never told he could have been eligible if he went to
    summer school, by the guidance dept. When he turned in his courses for
    this school year, he was still not told of this. According to our
    vice-principal,(former soccer coach and noted football basher) he was 
    told he would need summer school to be eligible. Now if this is the
    case then why were we allowed to let this athlete play??? Why were the
    coaches not informed before the first game???? The principal of the
    school attended our meeting and took all the blame, which I guess I
    commend him for. If we were informed of this, I am led to understand
    that the school could have filed for a waiver with the MIAA and
    possibly this kid could have been granted that waiver. Another thing
    that pisses me off is that this kid is a senior and was not even
    informed that he wouldn't be able to graduate with his class unless he
    took summer school. Now he will have to go to school this upcoming
    summer so he can graduate!!! Another unfortunate part of this is that
    none of our coaches are in the high school during the day. Our head
    coach is a 6th grade teacher and our other assistant is a 2nd grade
    teacher, so there is no one there to check up on the kids. The only
    fortunate part of this episode is that it was found early and it didn't
    cost us more than 1 game. My biggest concern now is with this Friday's
    game against Auburn. How will the kids react. Hopefully, they will feed
    on this and play like they've never played before, but on the other
    hand they could just fold up. There were a lot of long faces and even a
    few tears during our meeting. We are largely a senior team and they are
    very close, so hopefully they will take control. We the coaches will
    coach with this incident as a feeder. Like I said after the meeting to
    our captains "Hell hath no wrath like a Panther scorned."
    
    Coach
     

Coach --

I'm no expert, but sometimes this thing can fire up a team.

Just focus their negativism on the administration/MIAA or whatever they're
called, and use it as motivation.

Make it sound like "Hell, the only way we could lose was if they took
one away from us"...  

Try that, and see if you don't have a bunch of snarling Panthers this
weekend....


'Saw

    *(@#$%* school guidance "counselors".  I swear that in this state they
    are totally useless!  Were the young man's *parents* ever contacted
    about any of this?
    
    Is it too late to apply for a waiver with the MIAA now?  (Given that
    it's the MIAA, and some of the decisions I've seen them come down with,
    my guessing is "yes".)  Where is the AD in keeping track of this kind
    of stuff, since none of you are in the school?
    
    My heart goes out to the student who is learning the hard way that no
    one else will look out for him, not even those who are tasked with
    doing so.  May he find the strength to go forward with his studies and
    find something else positive to motivate him.
    
    For the rest of the team, sounds like you guys are on the right track. 
    Hope they can pull together, rather than apart.
    
    A&W
    As for the team, sounds like you guys are on the right track.

     
    Well, here goes. First, the school has appealed the decision to the
    MIAA. From what I've heard, we stand a good chance of winning this
    appeal because of the way it was handled by guidance and the
    vice-principal. There were some very angry parents making some phone
    calls to the school on Thursday and Friday. The vice-principal has now
    said that he *thought* he told the student he *should* attend summer
    school. Then he said he can't believe that parents would really believe
    that he would try and do this to football. This is spoken by the same
    guy who had 2 athletes who were caught smoking by another teacher, one
    soccer and one football, sent to him last week. He told the soccer
    player to go and ask the teacher if he would reconsider, while the
    football player was given no such option. This carries a 2 week  or 2
    game suspension, whichever is the longest time period, by the MIAA. I
    hope and pray that when I have children and they are in high school,
    this guy is loooonnnnng gone!!! If we do win the appeal, the athlete is 
    re-instated and the win is still there. It as of yet has not been taken 
    away. On the negative side, we lost the game Friday night, 27-14. 
    We were physically undersized by Auburn and given a sound beating. The
    kids seemed fired up before the game, but we were throttled in the
    first half, when Auburn scored 20 points. We have our first league game
    this week vs 3-0 West Boylston, so we've told the kids to try and
    forget all the crap thats been going on and to try and focus on the
    Lions. I think we'll be ok as they are in Div. III just like us and are
    no bigger physically than we are. Here's to a better Friday night this
    week.
    
    
    
    Coach
    
    

    The Blackstone-Millville (MA) High School cross-country team tied a 
    national high school record yesterday with their *250th* straight dual
    meet win (a streak that goes back to 1974!).
    
    
    py

    	Chuck Santos, Tom Chappel and I are going to the Fitchburg/Brockton
    game this Friday night?  Anyone else out there going to see the
    upset of the season?
    
    				/Don

    Nope, but Ah'm goin to see the Pats upset the Donks. If I cain, I'll
    stop by your waterin' hole by the front gate Slash. What do you serve,
    Bud or Lite?
    
    MikeL
    

    
    re .223
    
    I'm seriously considering it. I made it to Leominster/Brockton a couple
    of years ago when Brockton was ranked No.1 in the country. This will be
    much less of an upset than that if Fitchburg wins. In fact I wouldn't
    think Brockton is more than a 6 point favorite if they're a favorite at
    all. Fitchburg running back Zack McCall is a bonafide stud and they've
    got a big o-line.

    	RE: .226  SHADDUP!
    
    	RE: .225 Just look for the guy wif' the North Carolina hat and
    that'll be me.  I've seen McCall twice this year and he's the best
    high school running back I've seen it ages, but Fitchburg also has
    this kid Williams who is very good but doesn't get the ball much
    because he plays with Zack.
    
    				/Don

    Yeah, and Slasher will be sportin that beatific evangelical rictus-grin
    and vacant eye-stare that afflicts all Hare Smithnas! 8^)
    
    MikeL
    

    
    re: best HS running back in Mass.
    
    	If you get a chance to see Cy Butler out of Weston High you've
    seen one of the best ever. Rumor has it that he's being highly
    recruited by BC, Ohio State, Notre Dame, Miami, and UCLA.
    
    

    For the first time in recent memory, Danvers St Johns (7-0, ranked #3
    in Eastern Mass, only conqueror of Brockton in 1991 and better known as
    "the *REAL* St Johns") will travel to Shrewsbury to play Shrewsbury St
    Johns (better known as "the *OTHER* St Johns") in heated gridiron
    action thised Saturday.
    
    John

    Are the Pioneers any good this year?  As long as they beat the Blue
    Devils (if they face them again), I'm a happy camper.

    
    
    
    	GO LOUIEEEEEE!!!!!!
    
    ;^)

>    	GO LOUIEEEEEE!!!!!!
    
Lou Carnage....

NAH, I can't do it to ya Kev!  8^)


'Saw

    The flying Hudson Hawks stormed through Holden beating Leicester 3-0
    to win the Central Mass Division II Soccer crown. Now it is on to Szot
    Park in Chicopee to play Easthampton on Wednesday 11/13 @ 7pm in the
    State Semifinals. The winner will play the winner of the Wellesley vs.
    Burlington matchup, on Saturday 11/16 at WPI @2pm for the State Title.
    
    GO HAWKS!!

    Field Hockey:
    
    Division 1:  Danvers vs Dartmouth and Southwick vs Westboro
    Division 2:  Lynnfield vs Milton  with the winner to face Quabbin
    		 Regional
    
    Boys Soccer:
    
    Division 1:  Marlboro vs Springfield Central and Weymouth vs Woburn
    Division 2:  Wellesley vs Burlington and Hudson vs Easthampton
    Division 3:  North Reading vs Norwell and Nipmuc vs Monson
    
    Girls Soccer:
    
    Division 1:  Framingham vs Newton North or Duxbury and Marlboro vs
    		 Ludlow
    Division 2:  Masconomet vs Holliston and Sutton vs Mount Greylock
    
    In football this weekend, Danvers St Johns 28, Shrewsbury St Johns 9.
    
    John

    Does NESN plan to televise the Mass. state field hockey and soccer
    championships, as they did last year?
    
    
    In the NH Class L football playoffs, both Nashua and Pinkerton won
    their semifinal games this weekend and will face off for the state
    title Saturday afternoon (I think the game is going to be televised on
    Channel 9). 
    
    
    py

    Yes, the game will be on Ch. 9.. Somersworth beat Laconia this pas
    weekend to win the Class "I"....
    
    REK

    RE: .236
    
    Rumor has it that NESN will not be doing the Super Bowls this year.
    This is the word from one of the guys on the Central Mass Super Bowl
    committee.
    
    
    Coach
    

    Hawks are flying!!! The Hudson Hawks beat the Easthampton Eagles 1-0
    to advance to the State Finals on Saturday @WPI @2pm Hudson will meet
    the Wellesley Raiders who beat Burlington 3-0 for the EMASS crown.
    Six minutes into the 2nd half, freshman Matt Mayo scored what turned
    out to be the winning goal. 
    
    Go Hawks!!!

    State playoff finals:
    
    Field Hockey:
    
    Division 1: Dartmouth vs Southwick or Westboro
    Division 2: Milton vs Quabbin
    
    Both games Friday at WPI
    
    Boys Soccer:
    
    Division 1: Weymouth vs Marlboro, 430 Saturday at WPI
    Division 2: Wellesley vs Hudson, 2 Saturday at WPI
    Division 3: North Reading vs Munson, 1130 Saturday at WPI
    
    Girls Soccer:
    
    Division 1: Framingham vs Marlboro, 7 Saturday at WPI
    Division 2: Masconomet vs Sutton, 9AM Saturday at WPI
    
    Volleyball:
    
    Division 1:  North Quincy or Milford vs Dracut or New Bedford
    Division 2:  Seekonk vs Medway
    
    Both Saturday at Natick
    
    John

    REK -
    
    Have you got a kid on the team?  Or just enjoying it 'cause it's your
    town.  Either way, the finals is a great game to attend.
    
    A&W

    A & W... I dunno who is CNTROL::KING... Its not me...
    
    REK

    Scratch on Qhawk off my christmas card list....

    A&W - My nephew plays on the team and it is my almamater. Also look for
    the football team to be going to the Division II Super Bowl as they are
    currently rated #1.
    
    Dove or is that pigeon - I hate wrestling, people who call it rasslin',
    I have a dog, I go to church, I drink enough beer, I don't care if
    people are nice to me, and I hate inane noting.

    Sorry about the confusion.  Apologies all around.
    
    Have fun at the game.  My son played in it last year -- they won. 
    Nothing quite like it.
    
    A&W

    RE: .245
    
    You might want to sign your name....if I were you I wouldn't want
    to be confused with REK!  ;^)
    
    
    Jo

    Hey!!!! Lets cut the crap here... I seem to be getting a bad name in
    here...
    
    REK

    Yeah, let's get things straight in here.  REK is wrong when he says "I
    seem to be getting a bad name in here..."
    
    You already GOT a bad name, REK.  It's just getting worse!!11  :*)
    
    lEe

    Ouch.... lEe.... Nice shot.....
    
    REK

    Well, on Saturday afternoon, the Hudson Hawks met their match in the
    form of the Wellesley Raiders. Wellesley won 2-0 to win the Division II
    State Soccer Crown. The Raiders dominated play all day and truly
    deserved to win. Congratulations to both teams for great seasons.
    
    Marlboro boys soccer lost to Weymouth 2-0 in Division I while the
    Marlboro girls soccer won 1-0 over (???) to win their Division I crown.
    There were two earlier games, Div. III boys and Div. II girls but I
    don't know the teams or scores.

    Pinkerton destroyed Nashua 46-6 on Saturday to win the New Hampshire
    Class L High School Football Championship.
    
    
    py

    Field Hockey:
    
    Division 1	Dartmouth 4	Southwick 0
    Division 2	Quabbin 2	Milton 0
    
    Boys Soccer:
    
    Division 1	Weymouth 2	Marlboro 0
    Division 2	Wellesley 2	Hudson 0
    Division 3	Monson 2	North Reading 1 (OT)
    
    Girls Soccer:
    
    Division 1	Marlboro 1	Framingham 0
    Division 2	Sutton 1	Masconomet 0
    
    Girls Volleyball:
    
    Division 1	North Quincy over Dracut
    Division 2	Medway over Seekonk (3 straight titles for Medway)
    
    Boys Cross Country:
    
    Division 1:	Cambridge Rindge and Latin
    Division 2: Walpole
    
    Girls Cross Country:
    
    Division 1: Amherst
    Division 2: Mohawk Trail
    
    John

>Girls Volleyball

>Division 1	North Quincy over Dracut

All right!  Way to go Raiders!!

=Bob=

    Fitchburg just got by West(something).
    
    Whoever wins on Turkey Day will meet NM in the superbowl.

    Dracut beat North Quincy (girls volleyball) 2-0 in the regular
    season, but for some reason came out flatter than a pancake in
    the state finals and got smoked 15-1, 15-2, 15-8.
    
    Dracut loses only two seniors, but one of them is the 6-1 spiker
    Chris Daducci, who's the only girl on the team over 5-8.
    
    NAZZ

RE: -1

Nazz

Da Raiders musta been pumped!!!

=Bob=

    
    Well, it's that time of year again!!! Time for those Turkey Day
    rivalries.... What are yours????? Mine.......David Prouty vs.
    Leicester, better known as the Battle of Breezy Bend. I had the 
    priviledge of playing on the first Prouty team, way back in '76, to
    ever beat Leicester on Turkey Day. Now I am an assistant coach for
    Prouty and we are 1-1 in the last 2 years, although my JV's are 2-1, 
    having beaten them the last 2 years on the Saturday before the big one.
    How about some of those other rivalries................
    
    
    
    Coach

    Grafton is toast!
    
    
    py (West Boylston High '75)

    Paul,
    Stop butterin me up! ;^)
    
    Kev (Grafton resident since '81)

And on the South Shore:

Go Weymouth - beat Brockton (I HATE Brocton, or more specifically, their coach,
                             Armond Columbo)

Go North Quincy (alm mater) - beat Quincy

=Bob=

    In Western Mass. action, West Springfield (my alma mater) faces Agawam. 
    If we weren't hosting Thanksgiving Dinner, I might've travelled out
    west to see the game this year.  I haven't seen a high school football
    game in ages.

>If we weren't hosting Thanksgiving Dinner,

How generous of you Mac.  What time the ::SPORTS crew get there?       8^)

>>If we weren't hosting Thanksgiving Dinner,
>
>How generous of you Mac.  What time the ::SPORTS crew get there?       8^)


Let's be orderly about this:


	If your last name starts with A-M, bring beer.

	If your last name starts with N-Z, bring beer.


Now that we're all set wif dat, how bout it Mac, what time??????

    re.260
    
    I don't know about that PY... Grafton is big and physical and rumor
    around the coaches circle is that WB has a couple of kids suspended for
    alcohol abuse. This would make the second time this year. Also it's
    been said that the Tahanto kids haven't been showing up for practice.
    Last time they had this alcohol problem, though, they played Div III
    Super Bowl finalist Uxbridge tough.... Who knows...
    
    	A real big one on Turkey day seems to be the Southbridge-Bartlett
    matchup. Soutbridge is 10-0 and Bartlett is 9-1 with Super Bowl
    implications in this one. Here's a vote for Southbridge....
    
    
    Coach

    The Unnoficial West Boylston High Fight Song
    (sung to the tune of the Notre Dame Victory March)
                                                         
    Three cheers for West Boylston High
    You bring the whiskey, I'll bring the rye.
    Send the sophomores out for gin
    And don't let the "sober" seniors in.
    We'll never stagger, we'll never fall,
    We'll sober up on pure alcohol.
    While our loyal faculty
    Lies stiff on the barroom floor.
    
    
    What's the Central Mass. word on Leominster-Fitchburg?  Sounds like the
    Red Raiders have a shot at a Turkey Day win for once.
    
    
    py

    Hey PY -
    
    You guys stole our fighting song!  That's the Pearl River High School
    fighting song.
    
    Our attorneys will be in touch.
    
    D

    	Chap may sound confident, but he will not bet FHS unless I give
    him points.  And dat's a fack!
    
    				/Don

    
    
    Leominster will have to stop Zack McCall if they plan on winning. I've
    heard from a few Leominster residents that work here at NRO the they
    aren't as strong as years past and this will be a real tough one. The
    kid has 20 some odd td's and is only a Jr. Looks like Fitchburg will be
    real tough next year also.
    
    	As for our game, we haven't practiced very well the last week, so
    I'm not sure what to expect. Rumor has it that Leicester has also lost
    a few kids to alcohol, but I won't believe it until I see it. Those
    type of rumors always seem to run around this time of year. Hopefully,
    we play better than we practice....... I'll be back in Sunday night
    with our results and hopefully a wicked hangover from merriment from a
    big win. If not, the hangover will be from drowning my sorrows. :^(
    
    Coach
    

    It might actually be a good game... for a change.  I think Fitchburg
    has won maybe once or twice, in the past 10 years.  Take Leominster and
    the points.
    
    Go Blue Devils!!

    	Hey Karen, we'll be under the scoreboard.  Come on over and
    have three drinks.  8^)
    
    				/Don

    I never stand at that endzone.  I'll be on the other hill...  all
    by myself because none of my friends wanna go.  sniff sniff...

>    by myself because none of my friends wanna go.  

	
	He who walks alone, walks with everyone
	He who walks with everyone walks alone.
	He who needs the comfort of another finds no peace,
	yet he who finds the comfort of another finds peace.

       Did anyone see the clip Mike Lynch showed on ch5 lasted night? It
    was a HS game somewhere out west. On a kickoff the return team catches
    the ball and quickly huddles. A couple seconds later they all scatter.
    The kicking team has no clue who has the ball and the guy goes
    untouched for the TD. Great stuff!
                                      Denny

    re .272
    
    
    I wonder if McCall can play next year....there was a rumor that he
    just made the age limit this year.
    
    
    Lou

    
>    The kicking team has no clue who has the ball and the guy goes
>    untouched for the TD. Great stuff!
     
    I saw that.  I wonder why no one's ever tried that before?  Actually,
    it looked like a few kids picked right up on the guy with the ball,
    but the returning team was smart enough to give the ball to the
    guy with great moves and 4.3 speed.  He was cooking!
    
    glenn
     

 > < Note 12.271 by AXIS::ROBICHAUD "Pats 16 - Bills 13! WOODYWARD!!" >


>    	Chap may sound confident, but he will not bet FHS unless I give
>    him points.  And dat's a fack!
    
>    				/Don

	To paraphrase a former ::SPORTSter, "Make no bets, lose no money"
	
	And dat's a fack /Jack


Chap

    What about for REAL games like St. Johns and St. Peters?  Who's the
    favorite?

    
    Coach Desroches::
    
      What's this I heard that David Prouty had to forfeit their game
    against Tantasqua ? What happened ??
    
      My son plays for the Auburn Rockets who play Oxford on Turkey Day.
    
    Jim (graduate of Auburn High)

    Paul,
    Just(ed) back from a great 4 days at Gramma 'n Granpa's place in
    (not)Brrmont and here's a great summary of "our" game (Courtesy of the
    Worcester Telegram & Gazette and naturally, reprinted without
    permission, -
    	" It was a game that neither team deserved to lose. And neither
    did, as Grafton and visiting West Boylston played to a 24-24 tie
    yesterday...
    	No one got shortchanged today, said WB coach Dick Preistley..."
    
    CONGRATS!!!!!!  Now I don't have to make a reservation in da 'cafe'!!!
    
    Kev
    

    RE. 282
    
    Well Jim, 
    
    	Here's the poop. We played Tantasqua on our first game and won
    20-8. Monday morning when school started, our Vice-Principle, ex soccer
    coach and noted football basher, just happens to have on his screen the
    name of one of our players with his grades from lasted year, more
    importantly, last semester. The player was half a credit short of
    passing his junior year and according to the rules, ya gotta pass your
    last semester to be eligible for fall sports. Well, we talk to the kid
    and he doesn't know what we are talking about. He was never told of
    this. We turn in our roster on Aug 1 to the main office. So we start
    practice on Aug 19, play 3 scrimmages, then play our first game, then
    all of a sudden this kid is ineligible. Bingo, first thing the
    Vice-principal does is get on the horn to the MIAA. Automatic forfeit.
    We appeal it and still a forfeit. We ask for a hearing and it is
    denied. My beef is that we count on the Guidance and administration to
    help in these matters because none of the coaches are in the high
    school. The head coach is a 6th grade teacher and the other assistant
    is a 2nd grade teacher, so we must rely on office administration.
    What's worse is that all the kid had to do was take on summer school
    course and he would have been eligible. What's even worse is that he
    will not be able to graduate with his class because of this. Where's
    the guidance department when the kid turned in his courses to tell this
    person that he hasen't enough credits to even graduate. This is the
    same guidance dept., mind you, that told a friend that she wasn't
    college material. This person just happens to have a college degree and
    I believe graduated in the top 25% of her college class!~!!!!!! 
    
    	The kid was a starter on defense and was a special teamer, but
    really had no impact on the win. To top this whole thing off, if the
    coaching staff had known about this, we could have applied for a waver
    from the MIAA, which would have saved a lot of trouble. Kind of a lot
    of BS for a half of a credit, dontcha think??????
    
    
    	As for turkey day, we lost 12-0 to Leicester. We had several
    opportunities to put it in. We had a fumbled snap inside the 15yd line
    and our QB threw 2 int's inside the 20. No fumble and no int's and I
    think we have a different ball game. Our tailback had over 100 yds
    rushing and we were calling his number again on the fumbled snap. The
    passes that were intercepted were both underthrown with recievers open.
    Oh well, no use crying about it, now I get a little R&R for a while.
    
    Jim, what position did your son play for the Rockets. They crushed us
    on our field with that McGlaughlin kid having a great game.
    
    
    Coach

    Western and Central Mass have continued with the Super Bowl system,
    Eastern Mass has a half-assed, Mickey Mouse "playoff" system.  No
    matter, here are the pairings for thised weekend:
    
    Western Mass:
    
    Division 1:  Springfield Cathedral vs Longmeadow
    Division 2:  Mahar vs Pittsfield St Josephs
    
    Central Mass:
    
    Division 1:  Fitchburg vs North Middlesex
    Division 2:  Bartlett vs Hudson
    Division 3:  Uxbridge vs Bay Path
    
    Eastern Mass:
    
    Division 1:  Waltham vs Bridgewater-Raynham and Brockton vs St Johns
    Division 2:  Chelmsford vs Woburn and Walpole vs Lincoln-Sudbury
    Division 3:  Gloucester vs Dartmouth and Whitman-Hanson vs Foxboro
    Division 4:  Fairhaven vs East Bridgewater and Ipswich vs Dom Savio
    Division 5:  South Boston vs Gr Lowell and Burke vs Marthas Vineyard
    Division 6:  Weston vs Holliston and West Bridgewater vs Marian
    
    John

    Kev,
    
    Thanks for the Webo-Grafton report.
    
    
    py

    Hudson Hawks paste Marlboro Panthers 47-19 and it's on to WPI to
    demolish the Bartlett (Pears)

    
    Reading the papers for the last couple of months one would have thought
    that Westwood was the monster of the TVL and would crush a rebuilding
    Holliston. On Wednesday the Middlesex News predicted a Westwood victory
    by the score of 30-6 and both Boston papers (The Globe had Westwood in
    it's top 10) said Westwood in a breeze. In fact it was the opposite.
    Holliston completely dominated Westwood and took away another TVL title
    and the Thanksgiving Day Trophy. Interesting story about this trophy, 
    It was conceived in 1977 by the American Legions of the respective
    communities. Any team that accomplished 3 consecutive turkey day
    victories got to keep the trophy. Westwood had 3 previous opportunities
    to retire the trophy. This was Holliston's first shot and that made it
    even sweeter for the kids.
    
    	On Saturday we play Weston and powerhouse QB Cy Butler. My wife is
    a Weston High grad but I'm still hoping Holliston comes home with the
    win.

    Waltham		21	Bridgewater-Raynham	20 (OT)
    Brockton		13	St Johns Prep		 7 :-(
    Chelmsford		 6	Woburn			 0
    Walpole		27	Lincoln-Sudbury		 7
    Gloucester		18	Dartmouth		 0
    Foxboro		43	Whitman-Hanson		14
    Fairhaven		30	East Bridgewater	27
    Ipswich		33	Dom Savio		14
    Greater Lowell	19	South Boston		14
    Marthas Vineyard	24	Burke			10
    Weston		16	Holliston		12
    West Bridgewater	22	Marian			21
    
    Central Mass
    
    Fitchburg		22	North Middlesex		 6
    Hudson		35	Bartlett		14
    Uxbridge		21	Bay Path		 0
    
    Western Mass
    
    Springfield Cathedral 20	Longmeadow		 6
    Pittsfield St Josephs 28	Mahar			 0
    
    John

>    Brockton		13	St Johns Prep		 7 :-(

Double :-(  

Not because St. Johns lost, but because Brockton won.  I hate Brockton.

    	I watched Weekend Scoreboard (Boston channel 56) both
    	Saturday evening and Sunday evening.
    
    	I don't know what Frank Mallicoat's problem was, but both
    	nights he said that one team won when in actuality the
    	other team did. One was during a film of the game; he
    	realized his mistake and said, "Oh yeah, I guess <mumble>
    	did score and win the game."
    
    	He did the same thing Sunday night.
    
    	I wonder how difficult it is to read a score off a piece
    	of paper?
    
    	Scott

    Steve Walsh's little brother was named HS football player of the year
    yesterday.  He is being recruited by all the major schools in the
    country.  It's interesting to note that he wasn't named the top player
    in the Twin Cities metro area.  That award went to one of his RB's.
    Quite a passer, it would be fun to see brothers QB'ing in the NFL at
    the same time.  Has that ever occurred before?
    
    
    Spud

    Bill Walsh made a comment about the state of Florida having the best
    high school football players on New Year's Day.  Florida, Florida St.,
    and Miami all seem to have mostly Floridians on their rosters.
    

Here's the top 100 HS seniors (from Gibbons) as of the end of the fall
signing period.  Those not signed do not have to commit until later this
spring.  Most unsigned players are headed to JC or prep school.

1. Carliss Williamson	F  6'7"  Russellville, AR		Arkansas
2. Jason Kidd		G  6'4"  Alameda St. Joseph		Cal
3. Othello Harrington   CF 6'9"  Jackson (MS) Murrah
4. Carlos Strong	F  6'8"  Athens (GA) Cedar Shoals 	Georgia
5. Rodrick Rhodes	GF 6'7"  Jersey City St. Anthony	Kentucky
6. Matrice Moore	GF 6'7"  Oak Hill Academy (VA)		Georgia Tech
7. Richard Keene	G  6'5"  Collinsville, IL		Illinois
8. John Wallace		FC 6'9"  Rochester Greece-Athena	Syracuse
9. Tony Delk		G  6'2"  Brownsville, TN		Kentucky
10. Greg Simpson	PG 6'1"  Lima, OH			Ohio State
11. Michael Evans	PG 6'0"  Norfolk (VA) Washington
12. Chris Davis		F  6'7"  Lakeland (FL) Kathleen		Kansas
13. Steve Edwards	GF 6'6"  Miami Senior
14. Duane Spencer	F  6'10" New Orleans Cohen		Georgetown
15. Terrell Bell	C  6'10" Athens (GA)			Georgia
16. Donta Bright	F  6'6"  Baltimore Dunbar
17. Walter McCarthy	F  6'10" Evansville (IN) Harrision	Kentucky
18. Duane Simpkins	PG 6'0"  Hyattsville (MD) DeMatha	Maryland
19. Kenyon Murray	F  6'5"  Battle Creek (MI) Central	Iowa
20. Andre Woolridge	PG 6'3"  Omaha Benson			Nebraska
21. Serge Zwikker	C  7'2"  Potomac (MD) Harker Prep	Carolina
22. Quinton Brooks	F  6'8"  Akron Firestone		Michigan St
23. Keith Kurowski	G  6'1"  Lincroft (NJ) Christian Bros.  Notre Dame
24. Chris Collins	G  6'3"  Northbrook (IL) Glenbrook No.  Duke
25. Charles Macon	F  6'8"  Michigan City (IN) Elston	Ohio State
26. Nate Wilbourne	C  6'10" Columbus, OH			Ohio State
27. Corey Williams	F  6'7"  Batavia, IL			Arizona
28. Marlon Dorsey	G  6'4"  Shelby (MS) Broad Street	Miss State
29. Jamie Feick		CF 6'9"  Lexington, OH			Michigan St
30. Joey Rey		G  6'2"  Cleveland			Xavier
31. Etdrick Bohannon	C  6'9"  Pittsfield (ME) Central	Arizona
32. Michael Lloyd	G  6'1"  Baltimore Dunbar
33. William Cunningham  C  6'10" Augusta, Ga			Temple
34. Derrick Battie	C  6'9"  Dallas				Temple
35. Tchaka Shipp	PF 6'7"  Brooklyn			Seton Hall
36. Maurice Robinson	F  6'7"  Little Rock, AR		Florida State
37. Deiuan Wheat	PG 6'2"  Louisville			Louisville
38. Travis Knight	CF 6'11" Sandy, UT			Connecticut
39. Steve Hamer		C  6'11" Middleton, TN			Tennessee
40. Tony Moore		PF 6'8"  Kinsington (MD) Newport Prep	Duke
41. Charles Kornegay	F  6'8"  Southern Wayne (NC)		NC State
42. Vandale Thomas	2G 6'4"  Monticello, MS
43. Brandon Titus	2G 6'4"  Cerritos, CA
44. Dante Calabria	G  6'5"  Beaver Falls, PA		Carolina
45. Ryan Hoover		PG 6'1"  Rocton (IL) Hononegah		Notre Dame
46. Eric Dortch		GF 6'6"  Pensacola, FL			Baylor
47. Jason Stasser	F  6'6"  Dallas				Texas Tech
48. Steve Rich		C  6'9"  Fort Lauderdale
49. Ed Geth		C  6'9"  Norfork (VA) Granby		Carolina
50. Otis Hill		CF 6'8"  Pleasantville, NY
51. Stacy Robinson	GF 6'5"  Lanham (MD) Duval		Maryland
52. Shandon Anderson	GF 6'5"  Atlanta			Georgia
53. Percy Eberhart	F  6'8"  Athens (GA) Clarke		South Carolina
54. Waliyy Dixon	GF 6'4"  Linden, NJ			Rutgers
55. Kerry Kittles	GF 6'5"  New Orleans			Villanova
56. Stacey Castle	G  6'0"  Mouth of Wilson (VA)		Wake Forest
57. Jared Pickett	F  6'8"  Fairmont, WV			Kentucky
58. Lawrence Thomas	PG 6'0"  Elizabeth, NJ
59. Erik Strickland	G  6'3"  Bellevue, NE			Nebraska
60. Troy Brewer		PG 6'0"  Hobbs, NM			Oklahoma St
61. Gerald Eaker	CF 6'11" Westchester, IL		Ohio State
62. Anthony Brown	F  6'6"  St. Petersburg			Alabama
63. Darnell Hahn	G  6'3"  Dayton, OH			Dayton
64. Jaron Boone		G  6'4"  Salt Lake City			Nebraska
65. Joseph Blair	CF 6'9"  Houston			Arizona
66. Robert Blackwell	F  6'8"  Brooklyn			Boston College
67. Roscoe Harris	G  6'4"  Bayonne, NJ			Villanova
68. Quincy Brewer	PG 6'4"  Riverside, CA			Arizona State
69. Lenard Jones	F  6'7"  Dell City, OK
70. Marcus Wilson	F  6'8"  Monroe, NC			NC State
71. Paul Grant		C  6'10" Birmingham, MI			Boston College
72. Maurice Brown	PG 5'10" Brooklyn Grady			St. John's
73. Carlos Turner	G  6'5"  Louisville			South Carolina
74. Sheldon Quarles	CF 6'10" Fort Worth, TX			Texas
75. Stanley Caldwell	F  6'7"  Union City, TN			Tennessee
76. Kevin Miles		F  6'8"  Dallas				Oklahoma St
77. Brian Thompson	F  6'6"  Mouth of Wilson, VA		Florida
78. Lamarcus Golden	PG 6'4"  Memphis, TN			Tennessee
79. Reggie Geary	G  6'3"  Santa Ana, CA			Arizona
80. Jason Anderson	G  6'4"  College Park, GA		Florida
81. Ron Riley		G  6'4"  Las Vegas			Arizona State
82. Scott Shepherd	PG 6'0"  Carmel, IN			Florida State
83. Eric Hayward	CF 6'8"  Alexandria, LA			Connecticut
84. Odell Hodge		C  6'9"  Martinsville, VA		Old Dominion
85. Todd Whitehead	G  6'4"  Los Angeles			Cal-Irvine
86. Garrick Thomas	G  6'4"  Aldine, TX			Pittsburgh
87. Joe McLean		G  6'5"  Concord, CA			Arizona
88. Steve Polonowski	F  6'8"  Rockford, MI			Michigan St
89. Marvin Orange	G  6'2"  Irmo, SC			Alabama
90. Eric Eberz		F  6'6"  Buffalo, NY			Villanova
91. Rob Ramaker		CF 6'9"  Santa Barbara			UCSB
92. Exree Hipp		F  6'6"  Potomac, MD			Maryland
93. Eric Redeaux	PG 6'7"  Beaumont (TX) Central
94. Chris Gandy		F  6'8"  Bradley, IL			Illinois
95. Rashaan Carlton	F  6'5"  Harrisburg, PA			Penn State
96. Tshombe High	G  6'4"  Chattanooga, TN		Miami
97. Steve Hart		G  6'4"  Terre Haute, IN		Indiana
98. David Hart		PG	 Battle Creek, MI		Michigan St
99. Ken Pratt		G  6'3"  Chicago
100. Wade Parson	PG 6'1"  Crossville, TN			Penn State 

    
    
    	It's been a while since I entered a note in here, but I guess now
    is as good a time as any for an update.
    
    	Those of you that remember, probably few really care, but Cary
    Kolat the HS wrestler from Jeff-Morgan HS in Pa. recently set the
    Pa. record for consecutive wins for a wrestler.  This goes back a 
    few weeks to christmas, but he scored his 106th straight win without
    a loss holiday tournament that involved 3 states.  He pinned all 5 of
    his opponents and for the championship, he dusted his opponent in a
    mere 48 seconds.
    
    	Kolat was tagged by USA Today as an All-American and possibly the
    best HS wrestler in the nation.  Of course you will get no argument
    from the folks in Pa. because he is headed for his 4th State individual
    championship which is something that has only been done in Pa.
    wrestling 8 previous times.  Right now, he is reguarded as the best
    wrestler to come out of Pa. but remains undecided at to where he will
    shop his talents.
    
    	With a little luck, as I said 3 years ago in here, this 'kid' could
    make the Olympic team this summer.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

    Here's a rarity...last week, the Londonderry, NH High School  boys'
    basketball team played *back-to-back quadruple overtime games*! On
    Tuesday night, Londonderry and Alvirne went four OTs before Alvirne
    prevailed, and on Friday Londonderry was again on the short end of a
    four OT game against Keene.
    
    
    py

    I went and saw my HS BB team play last Friday night.  They're doing
    prety well, ranked second in the state and undefeated.  It had been a
    few years since I'd seen a game and the players all looked so young.
    What was interesting is that some of them really were.  The starting
    center is a 6-6 sophamore.  He played very well and wasn't a gangly,
    uncoordinated kid like many of the tall kids are here.  I saw Randy
    Brueur play in HS and this guy looks much better at that stage. 
    What was more surprising though, is that the other team started and
    played an EIGHTH grader for most the game.  He is a very good
    ball-handler (dribbling behind his back and between his legs, etc)
    He seemed to fit right in.
    
    I had never heard or seen anyone that young playing on the varsity
    team, let alone starting.  Does anyone else know of similar cases?
    
    
    Spud                                

    re .297:
    
    In Massachusetts, eighth graders used to be allowed to play varsity
    sports in schools where the eighth grade was under the same principal
    as the high school (i.e., a jr./sr. high)...don't know if that's still
    the case.
    
    
    py

    Spud -
    
    I know of a case in soccer where the kid graduated from high school
    having lettered for 6 years.  He started as a 7th grader with the
    varsity, and just kept going.  It *is* possible.  Circumstances are
    generally that the school is small, the high school goes from
    traditional junior high grades through 12th grade, and the child is a
    superb athlete.  That combination of factors doesn't happen often, but
    it does happen.
    
    A&W

    
    In Massachusetts you are only eligible to play for 4 years. Anything
    over that requires a waiver from the MIAA. Not impossible but not easy.
    
    

    Is that a recent rule change?  Like within the last 2 years?  'Cause
    otherwise I can categorically state that the example I posted was for a
    Division III high school in Massachusetts, and a waiver was *not*
    obtained.  My son played with the kid from 6th grade until they
    graduated, and I know his parents and the coaches pretty well as a
    result of watching all their games.  The ruling in .298 is my
    understanding of the MIAA eligibility rules.
    
    A&W  

    
    If your school is a Jr/Sr high school, under the same principle, you
    can play varsity sports. I coach at David Prouty High in Spencer and we
    play teams with 8th graders. As long as they are in the same building
    with the same principle, they can play. The T&G did an article about an
    Oxford high footballer named Jamie Danforth who was to start in his 5th
    consecutive Thanksgiving day game.
    
    
    And dems de faks
    
    
    Coach

    
    I had to approve a waiver request last week for a senior to play a 5th
    year (The school committee has to approve waivers before they go to the
    MIAA). The circumstances weren't in this area though. I'll check
    tonight and post the rules tommorrow. We moved our eighth grade to the
    high school 2 years ago so we haven't directly run into this issue yet. 
    
    

    RE: rules
    
    High School Principal says that eighth graders are eligible for 5 years
    to participate if grade is in high school. We approved limited
    participation in inter-school sports when we moved the eighth grade to
    the high school a few years ago. They are not currently eligible under
    our own rules to participate in certain sports. 

    
    Friday night the Holliston girl's basketball team defeated Westwood on
    their home court and stopped Westwood's 293 game Tri-Valley league
    victory streak!!! 

    So last night there was a high school basketball game in Oklahoma City.
    
    During a time out, an off-duty policeman hired as a guard for the game
    walks onto the court and proceeds to say to the referee "Number 32's
    been banging and elbowing number 19 all night long and you've done
    nothing to stop it."
    
    To which the ref says, "I don't know who you are but you've got no
    business being on the court..."
    
    The guard then says, "You're under arrest." and then proceeds to take the
    guy off the court......!
    
    
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Goose, if you're out there reading this, be careful!
    
    
    Who say's our law enforcement employees have their priorities mixed up?
    
    I remain,
    your nebulious_facts reporter,
    Kev
    

But what was the charge?


Speaking of refs, I saw the funniest cartoon the other day from a 
"Far Side" calendar:

	The caption was "Refs at Home"


	The picture was a ref screaming a bunch of deragtory remarks
	at a bunch of people dolls set up on a toy set of bleachers.

i was rollward....


'Saw

    Ever consider sending it to Goose?
    
    Kev
    

    Re .306
    
    My worst nightmare come true.
    
    re .307
    
    I have that one too ! 
    
    I ahve to admit though, nothing shakes up a heckler when you LAUGH at
    his shots ! And I do ! Some of them are classic !
    
    Once in Houston, there was this guy who was a gem ... he had the type
    of voice you could hear in ANY gym.
    
    100,000 people could cheer, and if this guy was yelling "Pay 'em off
    and run 'em out of here !", you'd hear him with no problem.
    
    This guy never used profanity either - he just had some great lines
    about cheap calls, and us being paid off. 
    
    After a game, I watched the 2nd game, and talked to him. Funny dude, he
    was, and a nice guy, he appreciated the fact that I could enjoy his
    worst, and not have it affect my job ....
    
    I wish there was more hecklers like him ... :-)
    
    Doc

    	Best heckler is that guy in Washington.  Anybody who reads "Jordan
    Rules" to Michael and Pippen has got style.
    
    				/Don

    
    re: the cop and the ref
    
    	I heard about the story and at first I had a laugh...but then it 
    didn't seem so funny.  Actually, if it were me, I would of let the
    guy arrest me, then retired to some South Seas island living off 
    Oaklahoma's taxpayers money.
    
    	Frankly, it's not getting any better out on the court, and we
    are seeing increasing amounts of verbal and physical abuse on officials
    of all sports.
    
    	Last year, I was spit on, had water thrown in my face, threatened
    physically a number of times all in the name of fun.  This year has
    been a little better, I've only been called a racist.  No physical
    threats (yet) and no objects thrown...only hope it lasts.  And to
    think, all this for a measly 20-46 bucks.
    
    	I still enjoy the job because if I didn't, I would of have been
    gone long ago.  Sad part is, the problem is mostly with the parents
    of the kids!  Sure there are some bad apples with the kids, but for
    the most part, the parents and those loyal, vocal 'fans' and I use
    that term loosely, are causing most of the problems.
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

    re. -1
    
    I understand exactly where you are coming from. I am not a ref, but can 
    relay this story from my local high school game. I was there to watch
    my nephew on the JV team. Now, I usually stand against the wall near
    the entrance of the gym and talk to some of my football players, but on
    this particular night, my girlfriend wanted to come to the game so we
    sat with my brother and other parents of the players. One of the kids
    on my nephews team had just taken a foul, and it was a hard one, though
    not deliberate, in my view nor in the refs either. As the opposing
    player was HELPING THE FOULED PLAYER UP, ( I just have to emphasize
    HELPING) the kid started like he was going to start fighting with the
    player. All this time, the parent of the fouled player was sitting next
    to my brother and yelling at the top of his voice that it was a
    deliberate foul and the player should be ejected for trying to start a
    fight!!!!! And his wife was even worse!!!!!!! All this time the kid was
    trying to help up our player, and as I saw it, our player was the one
    who was trying to start a fight. All through the rest of the game, this
    parent rode the officials. It was driving me crazy. I vowed on that day
    to never ever sit with parents again at a basketball game. I asked my
    brother afterward if we were watching the same game as this parent. He
    told me that wasn't even his worst outburst of the year. And even come
    to find out that he is a referee in the youth league in our town!!!
    
    
    
    
    Coach
    

I think the reason why so many people get on refs is that refs are
an easy target.

Really, what can a ref do?  I mean, you ignore it, right?  Or try to.


In rugby, a lot of times during a B or C side game we will get on the
ref.  More often than not it's a good natured thing (as in last year
when I yelled at a ref in a B side game and he offered *me* the whistle
with a big smile on his face).

But sometimes it's not good natured.  I try very hard to keep my mouth
shut during games (esp A side games) because the ref CAN award a penalty
to the other team for abuse from the sideline.....


It's easy to get on the ref as a scapegoat for poor play, especially
when you're sitting in the stands full of your own bias....



'Saw

    re .311
    
    Goose, it's like an officer in my board said, 
    
    "We get paid well for what we do, not for what we take."
    
    My heart goes out to you. I remember one of those incidents you related
    to me, and I realize how lucky I have been.
    
    This year, I'm nursing injuries and a few other crises, so I'm not
    reffing this year. I miss it, but frankly, not nearly as much as I
    thought I would. 
    
    Funny thing is that the players are pretty decent. Very few problems at
    all. It's a smart-aleck coach or booster that I'd love to smack in the
    mouth. :-)
    
    However, worst experience I've had was froma  DEC-league player. I went 
    home and seriously thought about tendering my resgination. It wasn't worth
    it to me take what I did, and *not be able to do something about it.*
    
    I'm not a robot, and I know I'm not perfect. I like to think that I can
    take critiscism. But when the attacks leave the professional, and
    decend DEEP into the personal - who the hell needs it ?
    
    Doc

    Boys Hoops:
    
    Division 1:  South Boston vs Brockton
    		 Springfield Central vs Fitchburg
    
    Division 2:	 East Boston vs Burke
    		 Athol vs Ayer
    
    Division 3:	 Mission vs Cathedral
    		 Smith Academy vs Millbury
    
    (in boys hoops for Eastern Mass, 5 of the schools are from Boston). 
    The Eastern Mass games are Tuesday at Boston Garden, the Central/West
    games are at the Centrum on Wednesday.
    
    Girls hoops:
    
    Division 1:	 Haverhill vs Brockton
    		 Northampton vs Westford
    
    Division 2:	 Wakefield vs Seekonk
    		 Taconic vs Oxford
    
    Division 3:	 Tyngsboro Notre Dame vs Westwood
    		 Lenox vs West Boylston
    
    Eastern Mass games at Boston Garden today, Central/West at Centrum
    tomorrow.
    
    Hockey:
    
    Super 8:	 Catholic Memorial vs Matignon, Wednesday, 8PM
    Division 1:	 Framingham vs Burlington, Wednesday, 530
    Division 2:	 Hingham vs Shrewsbury St Johns, Wednesday, 330
    Division 3:	 Westwood vs Pittsfield St Josephs, Thursday, 7
    
    John

    John, I thought Mag beat Cathlic Mem saturday....
    
    REK

    John, any idea yet what the schedule of games are for saturday at the
    Centrum?  I'm curious especially about the scheduled start of the Div 1
    girls game.
    
    Also, anyone know how much tickets are this year?
    
    Thanks,
    Hawk
    

    The Super Eight tournament is a double-elimination tournament among the
    top 8 hockey teams in Eastern Massachusetts.  It's made up of the top 3
    schools from the Catholic Conference, the top team in the Catholic
    Central Conference and 4 top public schools.  As an editorial comment,
    it's a move to get the Catholic schools out of the Division 1
    tournament so at least some public school will have a chance to win.
    
    Matignon did beat Catholic Memorial on Saturday but CM came into the
    game undefeated and Matignon had one loss.  Matignon had to win to stay
    alive and did.  Now both teams have one loss and it will be
    winner-take-all on Wednesday night.
    
    John

    Hawk, the times of the final games in the Centrum are not listed but the
    Girls Division 1 finals are usually around 545.
    
    For the semifinal games at the Garden, Division 3 is at 4, Division 2
    is at 545 and Division 1 is at 730.  Semifinals at the Centrum have
    Division 3 at 430, Division 2 at 615 and Division 1 at 8.
    
    John  

    >	Girls hoops:
    .
    .
    .
    
    >	Division 3:	 Lenox vs West Boylston
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    GO LIONS!
    
    By the way, did the West Boylston boys team win even one game this
    year?   Last time the Globe ran Central Mass. standings (a few weeks
    ago), they were 0-13.
    
    
    py (WBHS '75)
    

    Eastern Mass Girls Hoops:
    
    Haverhill over Brockton, 62-45
    Seekonk over Wakefield, 66-63
    Tyngsboro Notre Dame over Westwood, 61-39
    
    Central/Western Mass Girls and Eastern Mass Boys tonight.
    
    John

    I figured we ought to move the high school sports discussion from the
    junk note to the high school note, where it truly belongs.
    
    Tom Hill, Pittsfield never won a state hockey title.  They played in 3
    straight state finals (74-76) and lost all 3 of them.  West Springfield
    won one state title (1952) and lost 2 straight in 1974 and 1975.  St
    Joe's (1973), Hudson (1978) and Auburn (1968, 1973) are the only
    schools outside of Eastern Mass to have won state-wide in high school
    hockey.  Auburn did make the state finals 3 straight years (68-70) but
    had the misfortune of running up against Needham when they had Robbie
    Ftorek playing for them.  I have the complete list of scores here if
    anyone is interested.
    
    Enrollment is really meaningless now when it comes to determine
    divisions, at least in Eastern Mass.  A couple of years ago, I took a
    look at the schools in Massachusetts.  There are about 300 high schools
    statewide, ranging from really tiny to over 3000.  If you divide the
    schools into 5 equal groups (since I did it from a football viewpoint),
    Divisions 2-5 work fairly well, with enrollment spreads of no more than
    200 within each division.  Division 1, however, ranged from 1200 to
    3500.  I concluded the real problem is that there are too many high
    schools, more regionalization is needed for lots of reasons, the
    average high school size is in the 700-800 range (and is now probably
    smaller than that) and schools have to get out of outmoded,
    geographical means of thinking and think state wide.  I gave the
    Merrimack Valley League as an example - it ranges in size from Lowell
    (over 2000) to Wilmington (around 500).  You can't have any sort of
    balanced competition in that league but it sticks together because of
    geography.  The schools have stuck to obsolete pairings by geography,
    which probably made sense at one time, when some sort of new pairings
    by enrollment now make no sense.  This will involve schools travelling
    longer distances (like they do in other states in New England) to play
    other schools with which they are truly competitive with by enrollment.
    
    Schools are also going to lobby to be put into divisions by enrollment
    where they have a chance to win.  In other words, they will try to have
    their league in a division where they can be a big fish in a small
    pond.  Salem is an example of this.  They are exactly the same size as
    Peabody but Peabody's league is Division 1 across the board while Salem
    plays in a league that is either Division 2 or Division 3, depending on
    the sport.
    
    Will change happen?  Nah.  Eastern Mass is too provincial.  We think any
    trip over an hour is too long.  A professor of mine in college who was
    an Indiana native went to Wellesley College in the forties and she was
    struck by how Bostonians thought there was no civilization outside of
    10 miles from Boston.  This narrow-minded mindset really hurts high
    school sports in this state, in my opinion.
    
    John

    
     Does anyone knw how many public high schools there are in the city of
    Springfield ? I'm trying to figure out why Springfield Central has em-
    erged as such a power in basketball in recent years.

    Springfield Central is a merger of Springfield Classical and
    Springfield Tech.  Springfield Commerce is still there and they had
    some powerhouse teams back in the seventies and eighties.  Springfield
    also has Springfield Cathedral HS and Putnam Vocational.
    
    A lot of it for Central is Howie Burns, their head coach.  Bill Gusic
    is probably better qualified to speak about Central's emergence than I
    am.
    
    John

You win, Ninj. A (somewhat faulty) memory is no match for a statmaster like you!
I do remember them making a big deal over PHS hockey around that time, but it 
must have been that they won the Western Mass title. 

They started to pair schools as you described in the late '70s in football. 
There ued to be a "Class A" league for the "big" schools (in my other note). 
The smaller schools used to be in that league (it was called something else) but 
couldn't compete. There were several small-to-medium sized schools playing in an 
informal independent league, and then they got together with 2 Springfield 
schools, Putnam Trade and Commerce. They named it the Kosior Leage, after a 
Springfied newspaper reporter who covered HS sports and was a major force behind 
the league. He died just before the first season. Originally people scoffed at 
the idea of going "all the way to Springfield" for a game (about 50 miles). 
Later, the league became so successful that other schools wanted in. I haven't 
kept up with the developments recently, but I think they've reorganized things 
again and some of the old "Class A" schools are part of the Kosior League.

This is a football only league, as all the other sports there is a Berkshire 
County league with geographical North and South divisions. This makes more sense 
in sports like soccer, basketball, baseball, X-country, rassilin' etc. where 
teams generally play twice a week, so the travelling distance isn't so far.

Tom

way to Haverhill!

    
    re: Central High in Springfield
    
    	As was stated, Central is a merger of two other schools that the
    city shut down because they were dumps.
    
    	Like a lot of other places, kids in Springfield can choose to
    attend any HS.  Since Central was built only about 6-7 years ago, it
    was new and attracted a lot of kids (still does).  The other High
    Schools in the area are mainly geared for specifics.  Putnam is a 
    vocational school and Commerce is geared towards business studies.
    Cathedral is a private Catholic school which requires bucks and an
    admission test.  So, if you are unsure of what you want to do with
    your college life, most choose Central.
    
    	Now, 5 years ago, Central hired Howie Burns as head coach. 
    Although I think the guy is a dunce, he has produced some fine clubs.
    Of course, all the best talent in the city goes to Central, but for
    some, they feel he is still legit... I do not.  When Travis Best
    agreed to attend Central, the flood gates were opened.  A lot of guys
    wanted to follow that success and be part of it, so they choose and 
    have chosen to attend Central.  
    
    	As for this years team, they lost the best player in Western Mass
    due to the higher gradepoint average then what is required by the MIAA
    in Springfield midway through the season.  They also lost another 
    individual who was the 6th man.  That still left them with a solid team 
    though as they have rolled through Western Mass.  In fact, there is no 
    competition whatsoever out here for them.  They won the Western Mass title 
    without their center Desi Jackson because of a one game disciplinary action
    by almost 20 points.  So Central hasn't been tested and I fear that
    the reigning champs will wilt under better competition.
    
    	There are a couple of faces to watch though.  Desi Jackson is
    without a doubt the best leaper I've ever seen.  In last years state
    final, he had 7-8 blocks in the first half and the kid is only 6'5''.
    Believe me when I tell you this kid and JUMP.  The other face to watch
    might just be best kept secret in the state.  His name is Edgar Padilla
    and is a very good guard.  Excellent hands, plays great D, can shoot
    and can drive.  Lots of Div. I schools are sniffing around the Central
    gym hoping to land this kid who has basically gone un-noticed due to
    all the hoopla around Travis Best.
    
    	So, I doubt Central will repeat, but if you can get out and catch
    their high-wire act (about 5-6 guys can dunk easily) including the
    flying-Desi-Jackson, I don't think you will be shortchanged.
    
    
    							bill..g.

    Does NESN plan to televise Saturday's title games?
    
    
    py

    
     The Springfield Central teams that I've seen in the state tourney 
    would have won if they were coached by Howie Stern never mind Howie
    Burns, they were that talented. Their trademark is always speed and 
    a bunch of leapers. I'd love to see tham go up against South Boston
    in the final but first Springfield has to get by Zack McCall and
    his Fitchburg High teammates and Southie has to beat Brockton. If 
    Southie and Central meet in the final it'll be the most exciting state 
    final in years.
    

    Eastern Mass Boys Hoops:
    
    South Boston	87	Brockton	57
    East Boston		85	Burke		70
    Mission		86	Cathedral	77 (OT)
    
    The Boston Archdiocese is closing Mission at the end of this school
    year and Mission is undefeated.  I think it would be nice if they could
    win the state title in their final year.
    
    There are always lots of complaints about the Catholic schools
    dominating the hockey tournament.  Think there'll be any complaints
    about Boston schools (and some Catholic schools, no less) dominating
    the basketball playoffs?  Probably not.
    
    Central/Western Mass Girls
    
    Northampton		69	Westford	62
    (Northampton plays Haverhill Saturday at 545)
    
    Oxford		56	Taconic		44
    (Oxford plays Seekonk Saturday at 215)
    
    Lenox		58	West Boylston	41	(sorry, Paul Y)
    (Lenox plays Tyngsboro Notre Dame Saturday at 1045)
    
    John

    
 >>    There are always lots of complaints about the Catholic schools
 >>   dominating the hockey tournament.  Think there'll be any complaints
 >>   about Boston schools (and some Catholic schools, no less) dominating
 >>   the basketball playoffs?  Probably not.
    
       And the reason there won't be any complaints is because they don't
      dominate the tournament. I can't remember the last time Boston schools
      made it to the finals in all three divisions if it has *ever happened.
      Besides kids don't go to a particular Boston public high school to play
      basketball but kids do go to Matignon or CM mainly to play hockey.
    
       Personally, I love seeing those city schools in the tourney. Much more
      exciting.

    Tommy, I know, I'm just yanking chains.  I'm a graduate of a Catholic
    high school and it just bugs the hell out of me that many of the same
    folks who whine about the Catholic schools dominating the hockey
    tournament are the same ones who whine about their taxes being too high
    and won't invest the necessary money in their public school systems to
    make them better.  I'm convinced if the public schools offered a good
    product (and in many cases, they don't anymore but it's not their
    fault because they're just inadequately funded) many of the kids who
    leave the public schools to go to the Catholic schools wouldn't.  I've
    climbed up on this soapbox many times in the past and doubtless will in
    the future.  There are no simple solutions though.
    
    John

Right on the money, Ninj.  It amazes me how many of the same folks who lament
that the schools are no good, kids are ill-prepared, etc. are the same ones who
jump on the "no new taxes" bandwagon. Sure, no one likes to pay taxes, but if 
you want to have something, you have to pay for it, one way or another. Sure, 
schools could be run better, to get the most out of what little money is left.

It seems that sports and other extra-curricular activities are usually the first 
to be cut, but if there's nothing else to put in place of those things, kids 
will find something else to do with their unsupervised free time on their own. 
And people wonder why the school jacket is being replaced by the gang "uniform,"
even in "safe" suburbs. Kids need to be part of something. 

Uh-oh, I snse a rathole.  Lets jsut say that this is a complex situation with 
no easy answers.

Tom

    I know why sports is always the first thing cut - it touches a nerve. 
    Many times (not all, Mike Gilbert) a school committee will propose
    cutting sports as a political move and a means of rallying community
    support.  In the end it's still the kids who suffer.  Cutting sports
    and other extra-curricular activities cuts out not only valuable
    learning experiences, but also cuts out the things that keep marginal
    kids in school, active, community and school spirited and interested in
    what happens in the classroom.  In other words, they aren't just
    frills.
    
    When families were more together, several generations lived in the same
    municipality (often in the same house) and there was a true
    generational compact.  The elderly didn't mind their taxes being raised
    for the schools because not only was it their family being helped, but
    the elderly knew they'd be taken care of too.  That's not the case
    anymore - all anybody hears is "don't raise my taxes because it's going
    to cost me money."  To a certain extent, I feel the same way about
    Clinton.  I have no ties to the town, don't plan to live there for the
    rest of my life and all I really care about are the services I use. 
    It's definitely shortsighted and probably wrong, but I don't care about
    the schools.  If I lived in Peabody or Danvers, I would care, because
    I'd have nieces and nephews potentially in the system.  Then, with the
    overall breakdown of the family structure in this country, the schools
    are being asked to do many things they were never intended to do and
    aren't capable of.
    
    Then, the folks in the public schools are caught up in job protection
    instead of trying to make things better with what they have.  In
    Peabody, the teacher's union got notices of entrance exams to private
    schools banned from the public schools in the interests of protecting
    teacher jobs.  This was before the big budget cutbacks.  Wrong
    approach, folks.  Instead of trying to prevent kids from leaving the
    system in this way, figure out why they're leaving the system and fix
    what's wrong.
    
    John

    	Get rid of the 60's type sociology majors who schedule 3 hour
    meetings with parents just because the kid drools one a week and
    there would be lots of money for "important" stuff.
    
    				/Don

    Hey Slasher!
    My school "sociologist" only took 5 minutes to cure my three-day a week
    drool problem. She hid my SI SI.
    
    HTH,
    MikeL
    

    I agree with both.  Everytime a school-age kid dies nowadays they bring
    in "grief counselors" to help kids "deal with" the tragedy.  I'm not
    sure this is really necessary.  I think almost of us must have lost a
    high school classmate, be it through suicide, accident or natural
    causes and we all handled it OK without any special outside help.  Kids
    have to learn to handle and accept these things, painful though it may
    be.
    
    I also think, especially in Massachusetts, at least some of the kids in
    Special Ed don't really have the kinds of educational problems for
    which Special Ed was originally designed but rather, the kids are just
    not as intelligent as their peers and their parents can't accept that.
    
    John

Amen.

To many wimps these days, because everybody coddles them.  Hell, when
I was in school a couple of kids died for various reasons, and nobody
said nothing.  We had a moment of silence, at morning announcements.

A couple of years ago, in my hometown, two kids were out riding around
the back roads, drunk out of their minds, and one kid is hanging out the
window.  The driver gets too close to one side of the road, the kid
gets whacked by a tree, falls out and then gets dragged under the
car for a while -- I mean, we're talking SPAM.

Nexted thing you know, the High School is like one big wussfest, with
everybody huggin' each other and saying what a tragedy it is...


Now I'm thinking to myself, what the hell were they doing all liquored
up out on a back road riding around like dorks.  I mean, if I'm all
drunk, and I'm hanging outta the car and I crush my skull like a melon
as it whack and oak tree, I'm pretty damn stupid, right?  right.....


Wimps,
'Saw

  In what I'm sure will be a vain attempt to drag this discussion back
 to "High School Sports"...

  If you like b-ball but don't want to trudge into the Garden and plop 
 down big dough for tickets, refreshments and parking then cruise on into
 Wustah this Saturday for the State Finals. What we're talking here is 
 twelve of the best teams in the Bay state rumbling for the big prizes
 in their respective divisions. Cost is minimal, usually about six bucks,
 if you know the city you can park for nothing and the concessions are cheap
 too. The featured bout with South Boston going up against the winner of
 the Fitchburg vs. Springfield Central semi-final tilt (probably going to
 be Central) should be a humdinger. 
 
    

       In Taxachusetts many 'Special Ed' slots have been taken over by
    trouble makers, who in the old daze woulda been in what was called a
    'reform school'. I'm not ragging on special ed here, it's just that
    like everything else around here, it's amazingly abused.
                                      Denny

       Some of the side streets about a block past the Centrum have parking
    spots open from time to time. There's a garage right across the street
    from the Centrum that also services the Galleria Mall.
                                     Denny

    
    Sorry to perpetuate the tangental rathole.
    
    I have been dealing with the Special Ed (sped) folks for 4 years
    and I have mixed feelings about them but what amazes me is the number
    of kids (by proportion/percentage whatever) who are in sped and the 
    resulting demands placed on the sped system and the willingness of
    teachers to take the "difficult" (i.e. slow learner) student and
    recommend sped!
    
    Where were all these "slow learners" when we were in school?  Sitting
    next to each of us.  Today, where are they?  Why, they're ADD or LD
    (Attention Deficit Disorder/Learning Disabled) classified and taken out
    of the mainstream and branded by their peers.
    
    Denny, you're right, it's abused. I know.
    
    later,
    Kev
    

    re .344:
    
    >   In Taxachusetts many 'Special Ed' slots have been taken over by
    >   trouble makers, who in the old daze woulda been in what was called a
    >   'reform school'.
    
    Here here!!!  If I had a nickel for every such kid I encountered when I
    did my student teaching, I'd be in another tax bracket...
    
    
    py

There are places for students with learning disabilities (dyslexia for
example) and it's called special ed.  

It SHOULD be administered in such a way that young minds and psyches are
not destroyed by branding.  Much easier said than done.


As to the kids in reform school mode, in the old days they'd get a 
switch across the butt.  No more, though.  I'm not advocating that
but administrations are awfully afraid to act these days....


Another problem is that sometimes our truly gifted students are held
back by a system that is too slow for them.....


'Saw

    Saw, we're in agreement here.  Special Ed should be for the people who
    really need it and not just because there's a kid who's not as bright
    as the rest of his/her class.
    
    I also think the lack of special advanced programs for bright kids is
    just as bad as a lack of special ed for those who really need it. 
    That's one reason why some parents want their children to go to a
    private school - the public schools won't challenge them enough. 
    That's the main reason I went - and I was glad to do it.
    
    John

Agreed.

I'd like to send my kids (when I have them) to private school, but probably
won't be able to afford it.

However, if I have gifted kids, and they're not getting what they should
in school, then I'll make sure that Dad and Mom expose them to a lot
of the wonderful things in the world -- music, art, SPORTS, all those
great things...


'Saw

    Hockey Titles:
    
    Super 8:	Catholic Memorial	3	Matignon	1
    		(Matignon scored 17 seconds into the game, crowd at Boston
    		 Garden last night was 14,156; 292 short of capacity)
    
    Division 1:	Framingham	8	Burlington	4
    
    Division 2:	Hingham		2	St Johns (S)	1
    
    Central/Western Mass Boys Hoops
    
    Division 1:	Fitchburg	59	Springfield Central	58
    Fitchburg plays South Boston Saturday at Centrum, 730
    
    Division 2:	Athol		63	Ayer			57
    Athol plays East Boston Saturday at Centrum, 4
    
    Division 3:	Smith Academy	57	Millbury		44
    Smith plays Mission Saturday at Centrum, 1230
    
    John

 Fourteen thousand fans at the Gaahdin for high school hockey. Like I said
before eastern Mass has the best high school hockey in the country. 

 Have to love the Matignon tradition of every player sporting a mohawk.

 Mildly surprised that Fitchburg beat Springfield Central. I hear Fitchburg's
Zack McCall is a stud though.

 I haven't seen either team this season but if past history is any indicator,
East Boston will smoke Athol in the final.

 Whenever I go to the state tourney I'm amazed at how improved the girls' game
is. Of course I'd rather not be forced to watch the girls play their games in
between the boys games but they're getting more and more entertaining.

 Good luck to Mission in their final game ever.
    

       Zack McCall is an even better Football player. According to /Don, Joe
    Paterno's interested in him.
                                  Denny

    
     Dennyroo, one of my co-workers tells me Zack is more interested in
    playing Div. 1 basketball than football. Word is too that he may switch
    from half-back to quarterback next year (he's only a junior). Dont' know
    how true any of this is though

         I too was surprised to see Fitchburg defeat Springfield Central.
    Central was playing without Fred Smith, who I believe was booted off
    the team due to academic difficulties, and more importantly, without
    Desi Jackson their center, who has been suspended from the team due
    to "a confrontation" in school with one of his teachers.  One of the
    preseason college recruiting guides had both Smith and Jackson listed
    as among the top 100 H.S. b-ball players in the country.  Fitchburg
    built a large lead in the first half, Central took a 3 point lead
    late in the game and then went into a stall, and then Fitchburg made
    a couple of steals and some free throws to grab the victory!
    
         Southie seems to be playing particularly well right now, and
    will give Fitchburg a very tough time in the final.  Let's hope
    Fitchburg didn't use up all its emotion in knocking out Central!
    
    Russ

    
    
    
                Yes!!!!!!!1
    
           Athol Vs East Boston Sat at 4. They said we'd lose to Greenfield
    NOT!!!!  They said we'd lose big to Ayer  NOT!!!!!!!. Now they say we
    got no chance against East Boston   NOT!! NOT!! NOT!!
    
    
              It's the Hoosier movie all over again. A small town in
    Western Mass, Population 12,000. Graduates about 130 each year in the
    Div II State finals. Those young fellas got alot of heart.

    re .357:
                    
    If Central was without Desi Jackson, then I'm not surprised that
    Fitchburg pulled off the upset.  I saw the telecast of last year's Mass
    Div. I final -- everything Bill G. said about Jackson in .327 is true
    and then some...
    
    
    Anyone know who's in the New Hampshire Class L boys' final (which I
    believe is also this Saturday)?
    
    
    py

    
    re .358
    
    Good luck. You're going to need it. East Boston ain't Greenfield or
    Ayer. Their coach has won the state title twice in recent years. I
    saw both wins and they kicked butt.

    
    
    	Sad day out here in western mass since Central High's 47 game
    unbeaten streak came to an end last night.  Didn't see the game, only
    read the papers and they were pretty good about the whole thing.
    
    	I didn't know until this morning that Desi Jacksons suspension was
    for 5 days instead of the 1 game I had heard earlier (he did miss the
    western mass finals last saturday).  When I saw that he didn't play,
    it's no wonder Central went down.  Folks out here aren't making excuses
    or saying it would of been different had Desi played, but I can say it.
    
    	The kid got in trouble and deserved the suspension.  It's just
    to bad that it came at this time.  Well, let's see, Central already had
    lost the best player in Western Mass due to higher acedemic standards
    within the city limits along with losing a 6th man for the same reason.
    Now, they lost their center going into a state semi-final and they
    still only loose by 1.  Not bad considering what they had left.  
    
    	As someone stated earlier, Desi Jackson and Fred Smith were both
    targeted as top 100 talent, so losing these two people really hurt them
    in the long run.
    
    	Anyway, no excuses from Central from what I've heard.  
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

    	Well I for one am glad to see there's a school who wouldn't
    compromise their principles for a victory.  Sounds like somebody
    at Central has their priorities in order.
    
    				/Don

    
    
         reply to .360
    
         DOOOOooooooooooooooooooooo......
    
             Well here's hoping............

    Saturday HS State champeenships (Mass) at Centrum
    
    Time          Division           Teams
    
    10:45         Div 3 Girls        Notre Dame (Tynsboro)- Lenox
    
    12:30         Div 3 Boys         Mission- Smith Academy
    
    2:15          Div 2 Girls        Seekonk- Oxford
    
    4:00          Div 2 Boys         East Boston- Athol
    
    5:45          Div 1 Girls        Haverhill- Northampton
    
    7:30          Div 1 Boys         South Boston- Fitchburg
    
     

    PaulY,
    
    I think I remember seeing that the New Hampsha game is gonna be on
    channel 6 tee vee Saturday afternoon.  Check your local listings
    and find your rabbit ears (if ya have cable).
    
    Yer tee vee guide
    reporter,
    Kev
    

    Division 3 hockey:  Westwood 6, Pittsfield St Josephs 3
    
    

    re .365:
    
    Thanks Kev...I think it was Channel 9 that televised the game last year.
                               
    
    py        

    
    RE: tax support in the 60's vs. 90's
    
    In 1960 there was a school age child in 68% of U.S. families. In 1990
    there was a school age child in 17% of U.S. families.
    
    
    

    
    RE: .344
    
    The "trouble maker" syndrome has been corrected. Chapter 766 was
    amended in September to prevent the use of IEP's and SPED dollars
    to deal with children who were simply discipline problems.
    
    

    
    RE: .347
    
    See previous reply +
    
    We happen to sit in what has become the major research area for LD
    problems. Most of the major Massachusetts hospitals are doing some
    level of research in this area. Also, technology in the late 70's
    and 80's has allowed us to bring into this world kids who, prior
    to its invention, might have died or been shut away in an institution
    in the 1960s. We've sent LD kids on to college and productive lives
    because of Chapter 766. While I believe the law has flaws I believe
    in the law.
    
    

    
    	Well as to be expected, there is some backlash in todays paper 
    concerning the Desi Jackson/Central issue.  Seems like there are now
    two stories and some people are upset that his appeal to get the 5
    day suspension shortened failed.  
    
    	Faculty is supporting faculty for the most part, but some faculty
    have said the penalty was too stiff (5 days).
    
    	Now the coach has voiced a really ass-i-nine opinion if you ask me.
    Get this, he said that the school should of shortened the penalty and
    let Desi play because the school (Central High School) has made a lot
    of MONEY off him!  Amazing!  Now the money issue has creeped into the
    High Schools and heaven forbit what is next.
    
    	True, Central drew big crowds, but hey, they have all the talent
    in the city anyway.  Who wants to go watch two teams that have no
    talent whatsoever except for parents?
    
    	About the only good thing coming out of this at the moment is that
    the Central coach refuses to use the absence of Desi as a excuse for
    their loss.  Other than that, it appears that the education system is
    going to get a (undeserved) black eye from this incident.
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

    South Boston	82	Fitchburg	78 (OT)
    East Boston		59	Athol		51 (OT)
    Smith Academy	64	Mission		57
    
    Haverhill		70	Northampton	57
    Oxford		59	Seekonk		51
    Lenox		51	Notre Dame	47
    
    John

    Minor correction: Northampton scored 67, not 57, against Haverhill...
    
    The best basketball deal in town lived up to it's reputation on
    Saturday.  With the exception of the Haverhill-Northampton Div I girls
    game, the 3 full games I took in were outstanding.  It's too bad that
    the Div I & II boys winners couldn't get together.  The standout of the
    day, by far, was this kid Zachary McCall from Fitchburg.  This kid
    scored 44 points and almost single-handedly beat South Boston...
    
    Hawk

    I meant 67 but typed 57 and didn't proofread it before I entered it.  I
    know Haverhill pulled off a great comeback to beat Northampton.
    
    Hawk, your note says "With the exception of the Haverhill-Northampton
    Div I girls game, the 3 full games I took in were outstanding."  Does
    that mean you didn't consider the Haverhill-Northampton game to be a
    good one?  It seemed like it was a great game.  Deen to wonk.
    
    Also, South Boston and East Boston did play each other during the
    regular season.  According to the coaches, the series broke even and
    the net difference was 1 point.
    
    John

    
 >>   Also, South Boston and East Boston did play each other during the
 >>   regular season.  According to the coaches, the series broke even and
 >>   the net difference was 1 point.
    
      According to this morning's Globe Eastie and Southie played three
      times this year with Eastie winning two of those games.
    
      Hats off to the Central Mass teams. It's been awhile since the
      mid-staters gave acquitted themselves so well.
       

    The Haverhill girls played an aweful/ugly game.  Not taking anything
    away from the Northampton girls who played a fine game, but Haverhill
    should've walked away with an easy 20-point victory.  Early fouls,
    stupid fouls, caused Haverhill to lose 2 key starters for most of the
    game, one of them, Keri Guertin, who is the MVC most valuable player
    and who many regard is the best player in the state.  
    
    Haverhill went into the lockerroom at halftime lucky to be down only 4,
    and having only scored a pitiful 21 points.  They regained the lead a
    few minutes into the 2nd half, then Guertin and the other key player in
    foul trouble, their center (forget her name at the moment), went down
    with their 4th fouls.  Northampton then went on a tear which included 4
    3-pointers in a row, and things looked bleak for Haverhill.  More
    fouls, turnovers, and missed foul shots.  At the 8 minute mark, the
    disgusted Haverhill coach sent the 2 girls with 4 fouls back in, and
    that seemed to be the turning point.  Haverhill started looking like
    the team they really are, but time was running out now.  6 minutes to
    go, and they were still down by 11.  Some great defensive work, hard
    moves to the hoop, and finally making the free throws, and the game was
    a game.  The final minutes were nip and tuck.  Northampton lost 2 key
    players on fouls, as did Haverhill.  Still, Northampton had the lead
    with under a minute to go.  But, Haverhill came back and won.  A
    heartbreaker for the Northampton girls because they should've won, and
    they knew it...
    
    Hawk

    Comments about the Div II boys game, East Boston vs. Athol...
    
    Classic inner-city Black kids vs. sticksville White kids match-up.  As
    is usually the case, the White kids are cocky and the Black kids are
    cool and non-chalant.  Same went for the crowd- Athol fans were
    boisterous while the "Eastie" fans just sat back for the impending
    kill.  As Athol jumped out of the blocks first, they got all cocky, and
    at that point, I knew I wanted Eastie to kick their butts, which they
    pretty much did.  Then, as Eastie let Athol back into the game at the
    end, they get all cocky again.  And again, Eastie had to shut them up
    by shutting them out in the OT, 8-0.  It was great!
    
    One of the funniest things about this game was Athol's cheering section
    at one end of the court, who I dubbed "a bunch of Athols".  The kids
    thought it was a riot.  Everytime they had a reason to get loud, my son
    would tell me what a bunch of Athols they are!  :-)
    
    Re: East beating South 2 of 3 this season...
    
    That was my guess, not knowing that they'd already faced each other,
    that East Boston was a bit better.  I would've loved to see those
    games...
    
    Hawk
    

    
    
             Well I gotta give it to east Boston they played a good game
    over my Athol Red Raiders on saturday. This kid number 23 from East
    Boston hit his first 4 3 ptrs he put up. athol was down 51-40 with
    1:48 left in the game, they scored the next 11 pts the last three on a
    pro 3 pt shot from Brian Patria with 2.0 sec left. But the Easties were
    just too strong for them in OT and Athol went down to defeat.

    BTW, nothing personal about Athol and their fans and players.  We (me &
    the kids) were just having fun.  It was a looooong day.  We were there
    for 7+ hours, and needed to entertain ourselves in any way we could...
    
    Nice comeback too, even though the beginning of the surge was really
    East Boston trying to non-chalantly kill the clock.  Had one of their
    many misses in that stretch gone in, no OT.  That miracle 3-pointer at
    the buzzer was amazing!
    
    Hawk
    

    I re-read the Globe and I'm wrong again - East Boston won 2 out of 3
    from South Boston during the season.  There are brothers playing for
    both schools - Ricky Lambright for Southie and Joe Lambright for
    Eastie.  East Boston and South Boston are great football rivals and
    play each other on Thanksgiving Day.
    
    Hawk, now I understand why the Haverhill-Northampton game was so ugly. 
    At least one team from that part of the state (Smith Academy, from
    Hatfield) won a game and that was nice to see, even though they did
    beat Mission, the sentimental favorites of the tournament (since
    Mission is closing its doors in June).
    
    John

    
    	As expected, Cary Kolat became only the 9th wrestler in Pa
    wrestling history to earn 4 state titles.
    
    	Four years ago, I brought up his name mainly because he comes
    from my neck of the wood in SW Pa.  His HS is an arch rival of mine and
    they are only seperated by 7 miles.
    
    	Anyway, Kolat closed out his amazing HS career via an 'injury
    default'.  Seems he was ahead in the 3rd period when his opponent
    injuried his elbow and couldn't continue.
    
    	Kolat ends his career with a 137-0 mark(he now holds the record for
    longest unbeaten streak and most wins in Pa history) and has been called 
    the best wrestler in the USA.  Some are even going so far as calling him
    the best HS wrestler of all time!  Kolat wrestles at 135lbs.
    
    	Kolat turned in a 4th place finish in last years Nationals which
    saw him wrestling 'men' 8-10 years older.  Throughout his HS career,
    he has wrestled in many 'open' tourneys that featured college
    wrestlers.  One other remarkable feat he performed over the years was
    entering a college toruney and beating 7 opponents in one day!
    
    	Kolat has narrowed his college choices down to Penn St., Minnesota,
    Clarion (Pa.) and West Virginia.
    
    	If he gets a break or two, he could be wrestling in the 92 Summer
    Olympics!  
    
    
    							bill..g.

    Kolat was quoted in some of the newspapers that he was disapointed that
    he didn't get a pin in his last high school match. He feels if he
    doesn't get a pin then he hasn't done his job. He needs to adjust his
    way of thinking or he'll go through life a pretty disappointed camper.
    
    An impressive wrestler, that's for sure.
    
    Dennis
    

    
    re; -1
    
    	Dennis, I think it has more to do with the wrestlers mentality.
    All wrestlers want the pin, it just goes with the territory.
    
    	BTW, Kolat has been beat...well, by men that is, but he has tasted
    defeat.  Although I would like to see how many have went the distance
    with him through his 137 wins in HS.  I know of only 2 but I would
    guess there are probably (at least) 3 or 4 more. :-)
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

    
    Hmmmm, 135 lbs ya say?
    
    Wonder how he'd do against that animal of a guy, JD?  Shure gotta skeer
    him with those lats o' his!
    
    Yep that's it, put him up against "Da Sarge"!
    
    Kev
    

	Here's some more info on Cary Kolat.  When I got home, my father had
    sent me some clippings.  I guess for anyone to appreciate what this kid has
    done has to have grown up in or live in an area that is consumed with
    wrestling.  

	First thing, SI has been to Jefferson (Kolat's HS) and taken plenty
of photos.  According to my father, they are going to do a piece on Kolat.
My guess is that they were waiting until the State tourney was over before
they go to press.  Now that it is over, he could be in this weeks issue.
Some have indicated that he 'might' be the cover story!

	Yesterday I joked about the fact that although Kolat, as well as all
wrestlers go for the pin, had been taken the distance (6 minutes) only
2 times and possibly 3-4 more.  Well, I was slightly off.  Seems he has been
taken the distance only 10 times in 133 HS bouts.  Only two of those 10 have
occured in his last two years.  The breakdown of his HS career follows.

	Overall record   : 133-0 (at that writing.  He is now 137-0)
	Pins	         : 78
	Technical falls  : 35
	Major Decisions  : 4
	Regular Decisions: 6
	Forfeits	 : 8
	Default wins	 : 2

	From press reports it seems that if a person goes the distance with
Kolat, he becomes a hero.  In last years state quarterfinals Joel Torretti
wrestling Kolat became a trivia answer since he was the last one to take 
Kolat the distance.  After his loss, he received a standing ovation.  This
year, Torretti was unbeaten and ranked #1 going into the state tourney but had 
decided to move up a weight class this year simply because of Kolat.

	Kolats biggest HS challenge is yet to come.  On March 28th at Pitt's
field house, the USA 'allstars' will once again face the best that Pa. 
wrestling has to offer.  Sort of the McDonalds allstar clash in basketball,
this meet features the best HS senior wrestlers in the country against Pa.'s
best.  Of course, Pa. has beaten the USA allstar squad more than a few times
but this years meet carries the match a lot of people say could be a good
guage of Kolats superiority.  He will wrestle Chris Bono from Bolles School
in Gainesville Fla and from what the press has said it wasn't easy to find 
someone willing to wrestle Kolat.  Bono's record is equally impressive since he
has won state titles in Fla. in 130 and 140 lb. weight classes.  He was going 
for his 3rd title last weekend.  Bono's career mark is 160-5 and has been 
wrestling at the 'varsity' level since he was in 8th grade (he attends a 
private school which permits 8th graders to participate).

	Both wrestlers are psyched and ready to go in what is being billed as
the feature match.  I only wish I could be there to see this kid wrestle!
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

    re .385:
    
    What is a "technical fall"?
    
    
    py

    
    	I believe a 'technical fall' is one of superiority.  Meaning if
    the guy is say 15 points ahead it is considered a technical fall.  I'm
    not sure though.  It's been a long time since I saw a wrestling match
    and I don't believe they had such a term then.  Maybe if the guy is
    that far ahead, they just call the match and label it a 'technical
    fall'.  But again, I'm not sure.
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

    A decision by more than 10 points or so was called a Superior Decision
    and was worth more to the team than just a decision, but less than a
    pin.  A technical fall sounds like the equivalent of the "mercy rule"
    in softball and baseball.
    
    John

    major decision win by 8 or more   (worth 4 team points)
    superior decision win by 12 or more   (worth 5 team points)
    technical fall (as soon as you go up by 15 the match is over)  this
    			is worth 6 team points the same as a pin
    
    the technical fall was put in around here in 86 or 87.  The reason
    for the rule is there are people out there who can not be pinned
    but are no match technically so it rewards the better wrestlers team
    with 6 points instead of 5.
    
    Jimbo
    

    re: .353  
    
    "eastern Mass has the best high school hockey in the country."
    
    Apparently you haven't read about or seen HS hockey in Minnesota.  They
    draw 18,000+ (sellouts) for most of the sessions.  This even after
    splitting to a two tier format this year.  All of the games are
    televised as well.  There was quite a writeup in SI a couple of years
    ago on it.  We're very comparable to football in Texas and BB in
    Indiana.
    
    
    Spud

       When he said 'best' I think he meant the quality of the players.
    Look at the latest Olympic team, I think 75% of them were from around 
    here (NE). Wonder how many eastern Mass. players are in the NHL
    compared to Minn.?
                                     Denny

Quite a big article in the Hartford Courant this morning about the
trend (in CT anyways) of High School hockey players going to prep schools
because they feel their chances are better to get Division I scholarships.

Evidently more college and NHL scouts go watch at prep schools since they
feel their programs are better than the public HS programs.


'\Saw

    Same thing has been happening in Massachusetts too - Catholic schools
    and Prep schools.  That's why there's always such a rift between the
    Catholics and the Publics in the State tournament.
    
    Hockey is a convenient target for the budget cutters because it's so
    damned expensive.  Parents make an awful lot of sacrifices for their
    hockey playing kids and want to see some sort of payoff (ie, a college
    scholarship) for the investment.  So, they go the Catholic/Prep route. 
    Less chance of hockey getting axed and probably a better education. 
    Very few Division 1 hockey players come out of the Massachusetts public
    schools anymore.  In Minnesota, there seems to be few private schools
    so it's still a public school-dominated situation.
    
    John

    Speaking of HS hockey,
    SI has a nice article on high school hockey in all places, Indiana.
    Culver Academy, a military-style school is a power in high school
    hockey in the area ( no comp out there). Culver City is a town 40
    miles south of South Bend and attracts hockey players from Illinois,
    Indiana, Ohio and Michigan. Pretty good article. 
    Having gone to school in northern Indiana, I can tell you it gets
    plenty cold enough to play hockey all winter (jest have to shovel
    away the dang snow every day). Never took off though, a certain
    roundball sport gits dem northern Indiana Hoosiers ga ga all winter
    long. 
    
    Mikel
    
    
    

Where I grew up in the Western past of Mass, the Prep schools were WAY better 
than the local public schools in hockey. They could recruit kids who may very 
well have been good students, but also good hockey players. We practiced and
played games at the rink at Berkshire School. Our Varsity team would routinely
get whiped by their JVs. Granted, we were middle of the road at best, but...
My senior year the Berkshire Varsity played an interlocking schedule with all
the public schools. They beat every team, even the best in our league. I don't
think they were even the best team in their league.

Re: Indiana
I've always wondered why playing hockey isn't popular in other cold-weather 
areas. Mr T was blithering on and on and on last spring about how there are NO 
hockey players in Pittsburgh, but it seems that it gets cold enough for ponds to 
freeze there. I had a friend in college from NE Washington, near the Canadian
and Idaho borders. There was very little interest in hockey there, but if you
drove 30 miles into Canada, there were tons of teams of all levels. I never 
knew why. 

Tom

    Just curious, are major college teams out there (BC, BU, Harvard, etc)
    made up of Mass players?  U of Minnesota has (I believe) all Minnesota
    products.  Many of St. Cloud's and UMD playerss are Minnesota products as
    well.  This is in contrast to a UND team that has mostly Canadian
    players.                                                             

    Re Mass players on Olympics.  Where was the coach from?  Seems that
    depending on the coach, the team is skewed to either the Mass or Minn
    side.   For all the talent in Mass, the midwest teams that have more
    midwest talent beat up on the eastern teams more.   Certain schools
    have more Canadiens then others.
    
    JD

    Dave Petersen is from Minnesota.
    
    John

>    Dave Petersen is from Minnesota.
    
 >   John


 guess you better turn over another rock JD....

 :^)

    Mike -
    
    I didn't know who the coach is.  I do know that New England and Minny
    are  the two hockey hotbeds in the country.  And usually Mass and Minny
    have the highest number of kids on the 'pic team.  I'm actually glad to
    see that the coach seemed to pick the best team, and not use
    favoritism.
    
    Also, didn't a few of the guys on this year's team play in 88?  You
    used to rarely see the same faces 4 years apart.
    
    Of course Mike, I could put in that they played like the Mass economy -
    looked like a miracle for a while, but then went bust ;-)
    
    JD

    Part of the reason guys from the 1988 team (and I can't remember who
    because I don't have the roster in front of me - Scott Young is one of
    them) is due to pros being eligible.  Lane MacDonald went out for the
    second time.  Scott Fusco went out for the 3rd time.  Neither made it.
    
    There hasn't been an Olympic coach from New England for years.  Murray
    Williamson (Minn-Duluth) was the coach in 1972, Bob Johnson in 1976,
    Herb Brooks in 1980, Lou Vairo (New Jersey) in 1984 and Petersen (HS
    coach from Minnesota in 1988 and 1992) are the most recent ones.  Jack
    Riley coached the team in 1960 and he was the last New Englander I can
    think of (although I don't know who coached in 64 and 68).
    
    John

    John -
    
    Hmm, wonder why there hasn't been a New England coach?  With all the
    talent and hockey tradition....at least they ever had old Cement Haid
    from BC coach the team....;-)
    
    JD

    
    JD, old Cement Haid is the winningest college hockey coach ever.
    
    
    
    Steve

    Steve -
    
    I knew that.  But come playoff time, the man couldn't coach hisself
    outta a paper bag.  The Snuffy Smith of college hockey. year in, year
    out, top talent.  Recruiting was a snap, as all the top Mass players
    want to play for B.C. - but old Cement Haid would pull the old
    chokeroo.
    
    Sad to see him retire.  B.C. might win something with him gone.
    JD

Have to agree wif you dere JD, but it wasn't Ceglarski that choked,
it twas the boy's who actually lace up the skates. They had some great
players and teams in the recent past but couldn't win the big one.


Steve

    I don't have the record books in front of me, but I recall seeing
    Clarkson the ECAC playoffs all the time with Ceglarski as head coach.
    And typically they git good talent but not usually in a par with the
    Cornells and SLU of the world. Can't 'splain wha' happened when he
    returned to his alma mater.  And JD, not all EMass hockey players
    are auto BC-bound. Parker at BU and to lesser extents, NU and Harvard
    (even UNH and Maine) do ok with recruiting.
    
    MikeL
    

    Mike -
    
    Usually, BC gets the top recruits, with BU getting some.  Harvard gets
    the smart ones (no athletic scholarships, right?)   Having gone to NU,
    I can tell you that the Huskies were mainly Canadiens (Fernie Flaman
    connection - Missagua, Ontario, outside of Toronto, was  a almost a
    minor league affiliate during Fernie' tenure).   NU got, for hte most
    part, the dregs of Mass hockey.  Many of the players were not recruited
    - and NU has had many walk-ons.  UNH and Maine corner the talent from
    those states, plus some form Mass, Vermont, and the other places.
    
    ULowell, etc, get mostly mass players.  But BC and Bu get the best of
    the crop, and when I was there, BC had the upper hand.
    
    Steve -
    
    Has to be something wrong with the coaching when it happens so often.
    
    JD

    JD,
    Historically as you are well aware NU tapped the Canadian market.
    Recently they've made some inroads into the local talent pool.
    Right now, BU does better than BC in attracting local talent.
    Tis close as BC does pretty well. I'n mot trying to defend
    Lenny at BC, as he does get dang good talent. Last 10 years
    or so, the talent has started spreading out to other colleges.
    
    MikeL
     

    MikeL -
    
    Thanks.  I knew that when Fernie left, the Canadien pipeline might dry
    up a bit.  When I first went to NU (1977) - I lived in the athlete's
    dorm, and most of the guys on my floor were hockey players from Canada
    -
    great, great guys.  One was a relative of the great Paul Harvey (?) of
    the Canadiens.  Another is a coach in Sweden, last I heard.   Great
    guys, had some super times.
    
    "Hey, JD, eh, wanna go to the cinema?"  was a line I heard a lot.  One
    of the guys was from a SMALL town and they had to drive forwever to get
    to a movie theatre - and then to see movies a year old or so.  The guy
    went to the movies all the time.  When his folks drove down to visit -
    you guessed it - first night in Boston they got all dressed up and went
    to the 'cinema' near the Pru.  Classic.
    
    JD

    Every hockey season, I'm amazed at how many Canadian kids are on the
    rosters, and not just Hockey East teams.  When I followed ULowell and
    Merrimack College hockey closely, I swear that half the teams were kids
    imported from Canada...
    
    Hawk
    

    
    You mean DOUG Harvey, JD?
    
    Paul Harvey is the radio guy who says,
     "Today is...for hockey....a good DAY."
    
    Dickstah
    

    Dickstah -
    
    Yep, Doug Harvey.  I knew Paul Harvey was wrong.
    
    Best time used to be going to Don McKenney's summer home (I went out
    with his daughter's best friend) and have a barby/party with Don and
    the hockey guys.  Don would be there, with Fernie, and some other ex
    NHL types, along with Husky hockey player, past and present.  Some
    great stories.  One time Fernie and the guys were getting on Chris
    Nilan - saying he was too soft and couldn't take a good shot.   Haha.
    
    I was told I'd never be able to play hockey unless I gained some
    weight, eh? though a couple of guys thought that I  could be used as a
    post for the net...
    
    Jd

    West Charlotte High School cracked USA Today's top 25 in the final
    poll.  The Lions, after winning the NC state championship Saturday,
    finished 22nd in the poll.  This is the 5th state championship for West
    Charlotte's coach...a pretty significant accomplishment when you think
    of the hoops talent in this state.
    
    	--dan'l

    JD - I resent the name Cement Haid being shot Ceglarski's way. Since
    this is the High School note, I'll draw the comparison so you
    understand.
    
    Len was the hockey coach (and US History teacher) at Walpole High
    School in the late 50's early 60's. In 1962, I think, he took Walpole
    to the State Championship (when the states were for all Mass schools at
    the same time) and lost to Cambridge Latin 2-1 in the finals. Back then
    there used to be a New England Chasmpionship, too, where 2 teams from
    CT, RI and MA along with one from NH and one from ME played at the old
    Auditorium in Providence.
    
    Walpole beat Wilbur Cross and Hamden on the way to the finals. Played
    Burrilville, RI in one of the best finals ever. Walpole won, 3-2.
    
    Len made sure that his players excelled in class. All but one senior on
    that squad went on to college, either on sports or academic
    scholarship.
    
    Around '63 or '64 Len went on to coach at Clarkson. It was one of my
    deepest regrets to arrive on the Walpole varsity scene in 1965 with no
    Len around. His repore with players was legendary in Walpole and his
    teaching techniques were tops in the Bay State League. 
    
    Got a lot of respect for the man.
    
    Rich
     

    Rich -
    
    didn't know ol Lenny's high school doings.  
    
    My comments are directed solely at his B.C. coaching days.  the name
    fits there.  He was not well liked in rivals' arenas - nor were  his
    teams.  
    
    JD

    JD - Ya got a point, I guess, concerning his stint at BC. The team
    always seemed to have great talent but would constantly choke. Ole
    Jackie Parker and Billy Cleary and Fernie Flamman seemed to be the
    brains in Boston hockey.
    
    But, at the HS level, he was somethin'.
    
    BTW - I just got back from a residency in Tennessee and there was
    someone from Seattle there. Said she knew you. Told her how proud you
    were of your pecs. Told her to make sure and compliment them when she
    sees you again. Sorry, can't remember her name.
    
    Rich
    

USA Today's 1992 All-USA High School boys basketball team:

POY:
	Jason Kidd, 6-4, 205
	Alameda (Calif) St. Joseph's Notre Dame
	Signed with California

Others:
Donta Bright, 6-6, 205, Baltimore Dunbar, committed to Massachusetts
Rodrick Rhodes, 6-7, 195, Jersey City St. Anthony, signed with Kentucky
Othella Harrington, 6-9, 210, Jackson (Miss) Murrah, unsigned, interest
	in Georgetown, Mississippi St, LSU, Arkansas
Corliss Williamson, 6-7, 235, Russleville (Ark), signed with Arkansas

    
    The Central Mass Hall of Fame Football All-Star game will be held on
    June 26, 1992 at Doyle Field in Leominster, Ma. This is the central
    Mass version of the Shriners game which is the week before. The North
    squad is being coached by Vic Rimkus of Hudson High. Assisting Vic will
    be Bob Raymond from Algonquin High and Dale Diamantoupoulis (sp) from
    Lunenburg High. Each of these coaches is allowed to bring along an
    assistant coach. The South squad is being headed by Ernie Richards from
    Uxbridge High. His assistants are Art Papendrea from Worcester North,
    Dennis Perozzi (sp) formerly of Auburn High, and Neil Labaire from
    David Prouty High. Also coaching will be Rene Hanson, assistant from 
    Uxbridge High and Phil Desroches (me) from David Prouty High. This is a
    real exciting All-Star game and anyone interested in high school
    football is urged to attend. I know I'm real excited to be coaching in
    this game. Some of the most outstanding athletes from Central Mass are
    involved in this game.
    
    
    Coach
    

    
    After looking over the recent NFL Draft picks, I noticed that two of
    Buffalo's draft picks - Matt Darby out of UCLA and Keith Gouganis out
    of Penn State - both played at the same High School in my home town
    of VaBeach Va. - Green Run HS. I went to see a couple of their games
    in the playoffs when I was still living down there.
    
    That same team was quarterbacked by a kid named Alton Grizzard, who
    went to Navy and was a starting QB there for about two and a half
    seasons. That was a pretty good HS team.

    
    Over the weekend, Grafton won the Div 3 Championship.  They beat
    North Brookfield 13-1.
    
    To get into the finals, they had to beat the #2 seed, Maynard. 
    Pitching for Grafton was Toby Richard, son of Tom Richard who
    works in HLO.  Toby struck out 13 and had a 6 hitter in that game.
    
    In the Championship game, Toby had 2 hits and pitched well but I don't
    remember the details.
    
    Next step is the State Championship Tournament.  They play Chicopee
    tonight.
    
    Congrats Grafton Indians and Tom Richard (who doesn't do notes).
    
    I remain,
    hoping we coulda beat Paul Y's team!  ~/~   ;^)
    Kev
    

    OhOh,
    Is this CMASS/WMASS elitism at work agin ??
    
    8^)
    

    
      My son, who plays for Auburn High, played against Toby Richard for 3
    years. They faced each other in All Stars when they were 13,14 and 15.
    My son, Bryan, pitched Saturday against Worcester Voke in the Division
    2 Championship. He lasted 6 innings giving up 2 runs 4 hits and
    striking out 7. He retired the first 12 batters. Auburn won 4-2 and
    play Greenfield at 4:00 in Milford at Fino Field. Auburn is 21-1 and
    Greenfield is 20-1. Should be a good game.
    
    
       Jim

    
    Good luck to your son, Jim.
    
    BTW, Toby had a great chance for a BBall scholarship at some school in
    Virginia but a little thing called grades.....well.....
    
    So it's on to Quinsig.....
    
    Kev
    

    This Saturday, O'Gara Park in Spencer will host the State finals for
    the girls softball. 
    
    Over the past week, we held the District E tournament which was won by
    the Westford Grey Ghosts in Division 1, defeating Shrewsbury, Division
    2 was won by the Oakmont Spartains, defeating Northbridge, and
    division 3 was won by the Uxbridge Spartains, defeating St. Mary's of
    Worcester. These 3 teams are to play the Western Mass winners to
    determine who comes back to Spencer to play in the State finals.
    
    If any of you have girls who will be playing in the states, look for 
    the big guy in the consession stand flipping burgers, that'll be me.
    
    
    Coach

    
    My son's team (Auburn) lost yesterday to Greenfield 5-3. Greenfield
    plays Saturday in Milford for the State Championship. It was a good
    game where both teams had runners on base almost every inning.
    
    My son is off to Northeastern next year. He didn't get any money to
    play baseball there, but the coach of Northeastern has seen him play
    2 or 3 times. Now my son has to get ready for American Legion baseball.

>    the Westford Grey Ghosts in Division 1, defeating Shrewsbury, Division
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^

What a GREAT nickname for a team.   I'm just surprised all the DroodHaters
haven't made a stink about the name yet....8^)


    
>    the big guy in the consession stand flipping burgers, that'll be me.
         ^^^^^^^^
    
Coach, if you're THAT BIG, we want an entry in the Big Boys note telling
us the particulars 8^)


'Saw

    Baseball:
    
    Division 1:  Andover vs Dartmouth, winner plays Worcester Holy Name
    Division 2:  Abp. Williams vs Belmont, winner plays Greenfield
    Division 3:  Grafton plays the winner of the Granby - Lee game. 
    Marblehead vs Norwell.
    
    Softball:
    
    Division 1:  Bp. Fenwick vs Taunton, Westford vs Amherst
    Division 2:  Stoneham vs Apponequet, Oakmont vs Mt Greylock
    Division 3:  Amesbury vs Carver, Uxbridge vs Lee
    
    Boys Lacrosse is Longmeadow at Newton North.  Longmeadow already won
    the Girls title.
    
    Xaverian and Franklin won in Golf.
    
    Tennis:
    
    Lincoln Sudbury and Concord Carlisle won the Boys titles.
    
    Concord Carlisle plays Hingham and Lynnfield plays Dover Sherborn today
    for the Girls titles.
    
    John

    
    fwi
    
    Grafton plays Lee at St. Joseph's Park in Palmer today at 4:00PM.
    
    If Grafton wins today, they play in the State Championship game on
    Saturday at 10:00AM at Fino Field in Milford.
    
    Good Luck Indian's!
    
    Kev
    

    got the word tonight that Uxbridge defeated Lee today, 9-1.
    
    Thats unconfirmed.
    
    
    Saw - me thinks I put something in the big boys note, but I'll check.
    
    
    coach (with the bulging waistline)
    

    Baseball:
    
    Division 1:	Andover 10	Dartmouth 6
    Andover vs Holy Name Saturday at 4
    
    Division 2:  Abp. Williams 8  Belmont 6
    Abp Williams vs Greenfield Saturday at noon *
    
    Division 3:  Marblehead 5	Norwell 4
    		 Lee 5		Grafton 2
    Marblehead vs Lee Saturday, TBA
    
    Softball:
    
    Division 1:  Bp. Fenwick 8	Taunton 2
    		 Amherst over Westford, no score available
    		 Fenwick vs Amherst for State Title *
    
    Division 2:	 Apponequet 6	Stoneham 0
    		 Mt Greylock 13	Oakmont 3
    		 Apponequet vs Mt Greylock
    
    Division 3:	 Carver 8	Amesbury 5
    		 Uxbridge 9	Lee 1
    		 Carver vs Uxbridge
    
    * I'm just waiting for the public school folks to start crying about
    Catholic schools dominating baseball and softball like they cry about
    it happening in hockey
    
    In girls tennis, Concord Carlisle and Lynnfield won state titles
    
    John

    Any comments regarding Manchester (don't know if it was Catholic or
    Memorial) having to forfeit a game in the NH State Baseball tourney
    (and therefore be eliminated) cuz a number of players chose to go to the 
    prom instead?  
    
    Mark.

    It's a sad commentary on how unseriously kids take their sports
    commitments nowadays, but it was their choice.  I feel bad for the kids
    who weren't going to the prom who were unable to play because of the
    decision made here.  I never saw the point of a prom and never went to
    one when I was in high school, so I would have been absolutely livid. 
    I think kids are spending way too much money on them.
    
    It would have been best had their opponents been willing to switch to a
    time earlier in the day, or if the New Hampshire High School Athletic
    Association (or whatever it's called) checked with the schools involved
    before scheduling the playoff game.
    
    Scheduling spring playoffs in high schools is a nightmare anyway
    because of proms and graduations.                    
    
    John

Gee, Ninj, seems to me that a prom only happens once in a kid's life, whereas 
kids play lots of baseball games.  Seems like a lack of willingness by the 
athletic federation to allow kids to be student/athletes, who lead normal lives.

=Bob=

    
    We ran into the same problem when I was in high school.  Playoff road
    game in northern New Hampshire, prom in the evening.  Guys brought
    their stuff with them and got to the prom late.  No one even suggested 
    that the game not be played or that they wouldn't be able to make it.
    If anyone was thinking it, they suppressed it for fear of being
    castigated by the rest of the team.
    
    I don't think re-scheduling around every prom in the region is a
    possibility, as the baseball season is tight enough in this area.  A
    bunch of wimps who couldn't knock an hour or two off the prom to
    represent their school in the playoffs, I say...
    
    glenn
    

    Bob,
    
    I could see them punting the game had it been a regular season game but
    this was in the playoffs for a once-in-a-lifetime chance at a State
    Championship.  
    
    John

    I agree it's pretty sad.  Granted these guys probably shelled out $$
    for a tux, limo, etc, but what about their commitment to the school and
    their teammates?
    
    Sorry Bob, the issue of the prom being a once-in-a-lifetime event
    doesn't cut it with me.  Making the state tourney is a
    once-in-a-lifetime event.  These guys deprived their teammates, coach
    and school the opportunity to participate.
    
    My father would have kicked my butt from Leominster to Brockton if I
    ever tried to pull a stunt like that.  And I would have deserved it.
    
    Mark.

    If you're going to go out for a team, you make a commitment to that
    team, period.  If you can't make the commitment, don't go out.  It's
    that simple.  There are too many kids nowadays who are blowing off high
    school games because of family trips or things of that nature.  I don't
    think that ever happened when most of us were in high school.  We'd
    have been out of there in 2 seconds had we tried a stunt like that. 
    "Kid, see that bucket of water over there?  Go stick your foot in it
    and then pull it out.  See the size of the hole left in the water? 
    That's how much you'll be missed if you skip the game to go to Disney
    World."
    
    Of course, there are now fewer warm bodies willing and able to play
    sports in our high schools now, so the kids do have a little bit more
    leverage.  "Kick me off the team?  Go ahead and good luck."
    
    I know high school kids aren't exactly famous for long-range thinking
    but any kid who plays a spring sport should realize that there may be a
    conflict and should talk it over with his date before making the plans
    to go to a prom.
    
    I'm with Mark.  While it was their decision, it was a really lousy
    decision and they could have gone to the prom a little late if they had
    to.  Any girl who can't understand that isn't worth dating anyway. 
    
    John

OK, I see the point.  It WAS a playoff game, not a regular season game.  It
still seem that there could have been some common ground to meet on.  Start
the game at noon, let the kids show up late for the prom, etc.  Just seems like
the kids had to choose between the two activities, wben there were ways that
they could do both.

=Bob=

    I agree that there was a solution- do both, go to the prom late.  But
    who was it exactly that made the decision to not play the game at all? 
    Was it the bench-warmers or the team's all-stars?  Did they have enough
    to even field a team?  Is there a required minimum # of players, in
    other words, can a team be short a position or 2 or 3 and still play
    the game?
    
    I didn't go to my proms either, but I wanted to.  It's an experience
    that every kid should have.  And, it doesn't have to cost a fortune
    unless the individual wants it too...
    
    Hawk.
    

    Hawk, I believe there were 6 players who chose to go to the prom. 
    There weren't enough players left to field a team.  This stunt was also
    a blow to the opponent due to the asterisk next to the title.
    
    Mark.

I'm kind of with Ninj on this one.

When you commit to a team, you commit.  On the Wanderers, once the
season begins, if you are going to miss practice, or a game, for ANY
reason, you have to have it in to the Captain or Vice Captain, in 
writing, as soon as you know.

The selectors need to know of availability ASAP.  And you can rest
assured that should you miss a game, you'll not get selected for the
next.

And, it had better be a good reason -- weddings, unless it's your own
or you are in the wedding party, are frowned on....



I realize there may have been a conflict, but their first commitment was
to the team -- more people were counting on them from the team, than from
the prom.



'Saw

    Well 'Saw,
    If I'm invited to a wedding, I consider that as
    an honor. I would hope
    that my rugby captain would understand that even if it's not my own
    wedding or I'm not in the wedding party.  There are somethings that
    even supercede rugby and I know you didn't mean to imply otherwise.
    
    JMHO,
    MikeL
    

>    If I'm invited to a wedding, I consider that as
>    an honor. I would hope
>    that my rugby captain would understand that even if it's not my own
>    wedding or I'm not in the wedding party.  There are somethings that
>    even supercede rugby and I know you didn't mean to imply otherwise.
    
Well, I said it's frowned on.  You're not put in the stockade or anything.

Ruggers know when their season is.  And like other parts of life you
have to make choices.

I've missed one rugby game because of a wedding, but since I was in it, 
there wasn't a problem.  But still, I was not selected the following
week (got a game anyway, but wasn't selected).


The important thing, above all, is that you make the selectors and
Captain aware of your unavailability ASAP, so that there is not a 
case on Saturday at warmup time of people going "Where's Frank, I thought
he was available".....



'Saw    

    I understand that efforts were made to switch either the day or time of
    the game to clear up the conflict, but those efforts were unsuccessful. 
    I don't know what those efforts were.
    
    I'm with Frank, too.  In high school and college, I never missed an
    event I was scheduled to be at no matter what the conflict.  In working
    with the Patriots, I have missed one home game in 15 years and that was
    because one of my brothers got married.  I ended up missing 3 other
    weddings because they conflicted with games.  I even missed the
    afternoon session of my grandmother's wake when she died in December
    1985.  My family and friends know now that if they plan any sort of a
    function for the Fall and they schedule it for after the schedule is
    out to make sure I'm available before they expect me to show up.  There
    have been things (not many) that I probably should have gone to over
    the years (and in some seasons, frankly, would have preferred going to
    over a game) but the number one thing in that business, besides the
    ability to do the job, is reliability.
    
    In other words, if your priorities are generally going to be something
    other than the sport, you shouldn't be involved in the sport.  This
    does not include academics in a school setting, however.
    
    John

    Don't get me wrong guys,
    But Ninj yours is a JOB ( and I know you'll argue vociferously that
    it's a labor of love also which I don't doubt at all) and to me that's
    somewhat different than playing rugby ( now I know your protestations
    too Frank, so don't git up in a dither! 8^) Weddings don't come up
    everyday and if I committed to play rugby I also would make every
    effort to play EVERY game. However, I would tell my capitain that
    if I'm invited to a wedding, I'm a-goin' and if that costs me playing
    time so-be-it. I don't consider it letting the team down, however
    that's my opinion.  
    Hey it's good grist for the mill, ( er Mill, Frank ya still Bullin' it
    on Monday?) to be continued Monday?
    
    MikeL
     

    The difference, Mike, is that if something comes up during the week
    that interferes with my regular job, I will use vacation time to be
    able to do it.  With the Patriots job, my personal life gets scheduled
    around it.  
    
    Besides, I don't like going to weddings anyway so if I can find a good
    excuse to get out of going, I'm all for it.
    
    Ninj

    
    Without taking a position, there are a few other things to be aware
    of with this prom/game affair.
    
    I heard that they were seeded something like 5th (out of 6) and were
    never expected to advance.  They did however.
    
    The championship game was originally scheduled to start at something
    like 4:00PM.  The prom was supposed to start at something like 6:00PM.
    The tournament folks found out about the prom and (in absentia) changed
    the start time to something like 8:00PM possibly thinking that the kids
    could spend an hour (or so) at the prom and then go to the game.
    
    Nobody asked the kids for their input!
    
    Three kids on the team decided to attend the prom, citing committments
    to their dates (and the expenses THEY already had) and the plans that
    had been made.
    
    The team had only 8 players show up for the game, hence the forfeit.
    
    
    I might have the game start times bass ackwards but these are the facts
    as they were beaten to death all morning long on WEEI on Saturday.
    
    I can see both sides of the arguement.  I will not pass judgement
    either way because *I* don't know what I'd do if *I* was in that
    position (and since I wasn't, who am I to judge??????)
    
    
    I remain,
    $.02 poorer,
    Kev
    

    Tough call on this one. Without knowing the details of what
    arrangements were made to reschedule the game, it's hard to comment. I
    did hear of the same situation a couple of years ago with a girls'
    softball team, and the other team wouldn't cooperate in rescheduling. I
    dunno if it's a sexist statement that these girls might put more
    emphasis on the prom or what. Apparently in this case, the other team
    was being real jerks about it, and could have played the game the day
    before/after, etc., but wouldn't. They won the (tainted) palyoff game
    by forfeit. Too bad. If people were reasonable things could be worked
    out. You gotta let people have a life sometimes.
    
    About weddings, having been married recently, I realize all the crap
    that goes into planning one of these things. I also realize how you
    can't always invite everyone you'd like to. A lot of "border line"
    people get dropped off the list because of cost, family politics, etc. 
    (If'n I could invite only the people I enjoy, I'd fergit a lot of
    family and would have included a lot of WhiteFish and ::SPORTS_NOTERS...)
    Having said that, if I get invited to a wedding by a friend, I consider
    it an honor that someone thinks that highly of my friendship, and I
    consider it a privelege to go. Plus, it's usually a great time.
    
    TomDread  

    Trying to reschedule the game for 8PM was far more ludicrous than
    leaving it at 4PM.
    
    I had heard (and I don't know how accurate this was) that a game was
    scheduled earlier in the day (noon?) and the folks running the
    tournament tried to get that game switched to the 4PM time slot so
    Manchester Memorial and whoever they were playing could play early.  I
    don't know why the switch wasn't possible.  I don't know why it wasn't
    possible to switch the day of the game.  I don't know what could have
    been done, what was tried or what wasn't tried.
    
    The kids made their choice.  Obviously, I don't agree with the choice. 
    Obviously, it's not the sort of choice I would have made if faced with
    the same situation.  They have to live with it.  Let them.
    
    John

    Hey Ninj, scheduling your personal life around your Patriots job
    commitments is one thing, but are you serious that you have your family
    schedule their events around your schedule or else you won't make the
    slightest effort to attend?  No offense but, IMHO, that sounds a bit
    extreme...
    
    re: the kids making the decision for the prom instead of the game
        having to live the rest of their lives with that decision.
    
    Whether we agree or disagree with these kids' decision, I hope we all
    at least hope that they did what they believed was right and never have
    to suffer any remorse, or cruelty from others, over their decision...
    
    I'm actually feeling sorry for these kids after hearing all of this
    negative criticism.  I wonder how many of their parents are
    disappointed in them for their decision (I hope not a single one)...
    
    re: weddings.  I've been to fun weddings, and to miserable weddings. 
    The fun ones were fun because I made them fum.  The miserable ones were
    miserable because I made them miserable myself (ie. I wanted to be
    miserable and refused to make it fun).  I get invited to very few
    weddings, so I'm glad I realized this a long time ago...
    
    Hawk
    
    P.S.  CajunCathBabe, any weddings coming up?  :-)
    

    Point taken, Hawk, but a living up to one's commitments and respect for
    one's peers also goes a long way.
    
    Mark.

    
    Beating the inevitable...  :-)
    
    

    I don't make my family do anything, but they understand that I make the
    commitment and I don't break it except in cases of extreme emergency. 
    My family doesn't do that much of the gathering type anyway but when
    they've been planning things like engagement parties, christenings and
    so forth, they check with me first to make sure I'm free.  I know
    weddings have to be planned a long time in advance so there's nothing I
    can do about them, and when someone dies, well, you can't usually plan
    for that.  When my grandmother died, I checked with my parents to make
    sure it would be OK if I didn't show up until the evening.  If they
    hadn't been happy about it, then it would have been my decision, and I
    would have had to live with the consequences.
    
    Besides, the free tickets I've been able to come up with over the years
    have somewhat balanced out the things I've had to miss.
    
    When my sister got married in December 1989, she didn't actually plan the
    wedding until August or September and she checked with me before she
    set the date.  I didn't ask her to do it, she went ahead and did it
    that way.  If she'd set the wedding for the day of a game, I'd have
    gone to the wedding but probably wouldn't have been very happy about
    it.  I have a cousin who got married in Virginia the same weekend as
    a game.  I paid the extra expense (and it was expensive, believe me)
    to fly down the morning of the wedding and fly back that night.  Another
    cousin got married up here on the day of a game and I missed that one.
    When my brother got married last September, it was on a Saturday.  I
    don't know if he planned it that way or not, but I appreciated it.
    
    I'm available 355 days a year out of 365 for whatever my family or
    friends may want to do.  That's a pretty damned good percentage.  I
    have a better attendance record at family functions living 50 miles
    away from them than one of my brothers who lives in the next town to my
    parents.
    
    I make my choices and I live with my decisions, whether they or anyone
    else agree with them or not.  I don't like what those kids in
    Manchester did but it was their own decision, and they're the ones who
    have to live with it.
    
    John
                                                                      

Society over emphasises competitive sports too much at a childhood level at 
the expense of education and fun.

I'm a sports junky, I lived sports throughout high school and into college. My
Sophmore year of college I had a decision to make regarding sports or life and
I chose education over sports.

It looks like these kids made their decision a little earlier than I did. I'm 
glad that these kids chose the prom over a baseball game. It would have been
better if they never had to make the decision. I think they realized that 
sports is something you do for fun and the prom is a lifetime experience. 

RE: Frank and his Rugby team.....You gotta tell these guys that are so serious
     about a sport that should be a fun part-time hobby to get a life. I mean,
     guys that get upset about taking wives on trips, expecting you to miss a
     wedding to play a rugby match ?...

     I used to see that same attitude all the time on the soccer pitch. Many
     times I voiced the opinion that we are all doing this for enjoyment. Every
     body has to get up and go to work at their real jobs the next morning. It's
     not like some world cup coach is going to pick somebody out of a digital
     7 a side lineup and ask him to play on the U.S. National team...although
    many of the players in these rec leagues act that way. I've seen the same
    thing on softball fields with guys that think that the Sox or Yankees have
    scouts at the game just waiting to discover them as phenoms....

Metz
  

>    Point taken, Hawk, but a living up to one's commitments and respect for
>    one's peers also goes a long way.
    
     How about the commitments these guys made to their dates? Those girls
    certainly spent a lot more money getting ready for a prom than most
    guys do.
                                   Denny

    In the 'Nightshift' "I'm an idea man, Chuck" spirit:
    
    Velcro prom dresses and tuxedos.  Would save kids a lot of time on that
    special night.
    
    	--dan'l

    It doesn't matter what you're fanatical about.  If family/friends know
    what you're fanatical about, they'll understand and try to work around
    it as much as possible, as long as you make up for it at other times.
    
    The difference with a job like the one I have is that there are no
    vacation days and no "I'll do it tomorrow so I can do something else." 
    It has to be done when it has to be done and if you consistently
    demonstrate over time that other things come first, they'll just go get
    someone else.  Besides doing the job well, the next most important
    factor is reliability.
    
    When my brother got married the day of a game in 1986, it was my first
    year in my current job.  I tried to get the guy who had the job before
    me to fill in for me as soon as I knew of the conflict and he was
    unavailable.  I got the job covered but I was so nervous throughout the
    wedding about what was going on without me and whether the work would
    be done right I just couldn't enjoy the wedding.  You can bash me if
    you want for feeling that way but it's just the way I am.  It would be
    easier now since I have other folks trained to do the job up to my
    standards, but I still wouldn't like it much.
    
    It's both a job and a fun hobby, but it's an important job and one that
    has to be done right if I want to keep it.  I give it a lot of effort
    and the most important part of giving that effort is to be there.
    
    John
    
    PS - I never once have criticized folks on the crew for having to miss
    either.  This includes someone who got caught in a work problem on the
    day of a game, and someone who had a death in his family 3 days before
    Christmas when we had a game the day before Christmas

    
    Hawk, think of high school baseball, rugby, and working Patriots' games
    as kind of like working a weekend bartending shift and you'll understand
    completely... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

I know that you sand up to the guys that think Rugby is their life Mac.
In fact you've stated that you've told the guys that don't want to bring wives
on your trips to shove it. Correct?

A lot of people out there take the fun out of recreational sports by treating 
them way to seriously....


Metz

    
    See, a prom is a lot like rugby.....
    

    No bash, Ninj, really.  I'm finding this incredible, and fascinating,
    as more come forth with similar experiences!
    
    Glenn, I did about relating it to my Sunday night bartending job. 
    Unfortunately, family and friends steel party without me...  :-)
    
    Hawk
    
    

    It can be tough at times to keep the various aspects of life in
    balance. With the WhiteFish soccer team, I think that we do a pretty
    decent job. On the field we want to take it seriously and do everything
    possible to play well and win. This involves badgering people to make
    sure they show up at the right time, strategizing, positioning and 
    planning. We always emphasize the team-oriented passing style, with no 
    real individual stars. 
    
    If there is a open roster spot, we would rather fill it with an average 
    player who is a good person than build a collection of stars that are 
    jerks on the team. We have a large roster, as big as the league allows, 
    but this is purposely designed to make sure we have enough people every 
    game. Face it, people DO go on vacations/business trips or have family 
    conflicts that cause them to miss games for whatever reason. People are 
    entitled to having a life. Since we are not about to tell people that, 
    unless you make every game, don't bother, we need a large pool to make 
    sure we always have a couple of subs every game.
    
    You can still take the game seriously, without taking yourselves too
    seriously. We have an "awards ceremony" that pokes fun at certain
    characteristics of each player (in a good natured way), which was a
    real good laff. Anyone who has seen our summer 92 uniform knows we
    can't take ourselves too seriously, but we do well. We were 4th in the
    league (16 teams) the last 2 seasons.
    
    Tom
    
    PS - This is an entirely different situation than the original debate
    over a high school baseball team's playoffs. 

>     PS - This is an entirely different situation than the original debate 
>    over a high school baseball team's playoffs. 


is it really different ?

the kids had a choice between playing ball or going to the prom
Mac and saw have a choice between (say) a wedding or a rugby game
I have a choice between a party or going skiing for the day....

Everybody makes these decisions and learns to live with them. I don't think 
these kids needed to have their decision reported in the newspapers...

Metz

    Whitefish rool!!!

    
>> PS - This is an entirely different situation than the original debate 
>>      over a high school baseball team's playoffs. 
 >
 > is it really different ?
    
    Maybe it was just what I was taught, but I don't see high school
    baseball being "recreational" in the corporate- or intramural-league 
    sense.  Yes, technically it is recreation and it is fun, but it's 
    also a commitment to 15 other guys and the school.  It's also supposed
    to be a learning experience on teamwork and responsibility, which I 
    would never claim to be the case with your run-of-the-mill afterwork 
    softball league.  Lastly, the activity and that of your playoff 
    opponent has been funded at taxpayer and school expense for the 
    expressed purpose of being a worthwhile development endeavor and not 
    just a fun-and-games type thing to keep the kids busy after school.  
    Might have a hard time justifying opposition to next year's athletic 
    budget cuts after something like this, no? 
    
    As totally personal opinion, I think the commitment and personal 
    financial circumstances around a social event like the prom pale in
    comparison.  It boils down to the school and town's investment versus
    one's own...
    
    glenn
    

    
    >><<< Note 12.468 by ROYALT::ASHE "Laugh while you can, Monkey-boy..." >>>

    >>Whitefish rool!!!
    
    Now, while I agree that whitefish are tasty, I must say that the above
    statement is wrong, walleye tastes better, therefore Walleye Rool!!!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    
    JaKe
    
    

    I don't think we're talking the same Whitefish Jake... trust me...
    
    hahah...
    

I disagree Glen...

The jobs these kids have is to go to school. External sports should be for fun
and enjoyment at that age. I also think that the external athletics should be
funded by those that participate and not by the town so the argument that the
town has invested money in these kids doesn't wash with me. Does the town
expect something back?

If these guys were in baseball school where their jobs were to play baseball and
they blew it off for the prom I'd agree with you. I don't under these 
circumstances.

I think the town/parents tend to live too much through the exploits of the
local school athletic teams and this is another example of that.  

My stances have changed dramatically since I was in high school and lived sports
 :-)


Metz

    
    Might as well put my $.02 worth.
    
    As a high school football coach, we ask the kids for a commitment. We
    coaches also have to make a commitment. In the fall of 1990, I got
    engaged. My fiance really wanted to have a fall '92 wedding. I told her
    that it would make life a lot easier if we had a summer wedding. we
    hemmed and hawed for a month or so and we came up with a June of 93
    date. We also had a situation during this past fall where we were
    invited to a wedding on a Saturday. Well, wouldn't you know, it was one
    of the only times we didn't have a Friday night game scheduled. I
    talked about this with my fiance and she understood completely about my
    commitment to the kids. Even though it is a paid job, my commitment is
    to be able to teach and coach the game of football to the kids and I
    felt as if I would be letting them down by not being there. She
    understood and there were no problems. Now her mother, on the other
    hand, well, thats just another rathole.
    
    	I would think that the commitee that ran the baseball tourney could
    have altered their schedule for the kids to be able to do both. I am on
    a board the runs O'Gara Park in Spencer, which hosts the state Girls
    Softball finals. We really needed Uxbridge to beat Lee because Lee has
    graduation scheduled for Saturday. Now I know that graduation is a
    little different than a prom, but the point is that we were going to
    accomidate Lee by playing on Friday night instead of this Saturday. Of
    course, Lee helped us all out by losing to Uxbridge, but I belive that
    some accomidations can be made for proms and such.
    
    
    
    Just my humble opinion,
    
    
    Coach_who'll_spend_the_whole_day_Saturday_flippin_burgers!!!!
    

    Het Coach, who's going to be your best main?  Luther?  :-)
    
    Hawk
    
    

    Yes, it is a different situation between a quasi-recreational team and
    a high school varsity team. As we get older, life takes on more
    dimensions and our responsibilities sometimes need to be prioritized.
    For a high school kid to commit to a sport, s/he should make that the
    second most important regular activity, after schoolwork. Sure, a kid
    might want to have a job to earn a little spending money, but they
    can't reasonably be expected to do both. With the 'Fish or any similar 
    team, people might have job, family, night school, and possibly other 
    committments to make, and all of these things rightly take priority over 
    a recreational league. 
    
    A high scholl kid doesn't have to worry about earning a living/trying to
    make sure that when heads roll, yours isn't one of them, etc. 
    
    To tell the truth, I'd like to see the emphasis on varsity atheletics
    de-emphasized and more emphasis put on intramural sports, where
    participation/fun for the average kid is encouraged. This comes
    from someone who *lived* for sports in high school.
    
    Tom
    

    Tom and Coach summed up exactly why I disagree with the decision the
    kids made in a much better fashion than I could.
    
    I also agree somewhat about the de-emphasis of sports on the high
    school level, but not because of the competitive aspects, because I
    think learning to compete is important.
    
    The sports kids play in high school tend not to be sports they can
    participate in for a lifetime.  The emphasis should be placed on sports
    they'll enjoy and use to keep fit for the rest of their lives.
    
    John

    Oh I dunno Mac,
    Y'all git fit and the put it all back wif dem drinkups!!
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    

I've never had a problem on the Wanderers with missing a practice because
of work.   That's understood.

Rugby Union is an amateur sport, so ALL players, even the Eagles, have
regular jobs.

You make the commitment, and it's a priority in your life.  Because one
of the selection criteria is availability, if you don't prioritize your
rugby and honor your commitment, then it shows in selections.  The
system works well.


'Saw

>    >>Whitefish rool!!!
    
>    Now, while I agree that whitefish are tasty, I must say that the above
>    statement is wrong, walleye tastes better, therefore Walleye Rool!!!!
  
I dunno, whitefish, lox, pickled herring, the stuff all tastes the same to 
me once you put it on a bagel.

8^)

=Bob=

    Do they taste the same as Coney Island Whitefish?  That's where our
    name originated...
    

    Do they taste the same as Coney Island Whitefish?  That's where our
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Cousins of Headless Browns....


hth,
'Saw

    
    RE.474
    
    Nah, I thought Dobber would be a better choice. ;^)
    
    
    I chose Luther as the Ring bearer!!
    
    
    
    Coach
    
    
    
    

    Baseball
    
    Andover	15	Holy Name	0
    Abp Williams 6	Greenfield	5
    Lee vs Marblehead, today
    
    Softball
    
    Bp Fenwick	2	Amherst		0
    Apponequet 13	Mt Greylock	2
    Carver	6	Uxbridge	1
    
    Boys Lacrosse
    
    Longmeadow	11	Newton North	9
    
    John

    Marblehead beat Lee in baseball yesterday, 15-5.  That closes the
    1991-92 Massachusetts HS sports seasons.
    
    John

    With two kids now entering the world of competitive sports, this topic
    is of special interest to me. 
    
    My daughter's softball team is entering the district softball
    tournament here starting next Saturday. Softball is the most popular
    sport in Virginia. My family is also honoring my Dad's 65th bithday on
    Saturday. 
    
    Conflict alert, right? Well, the birthday celebration has been planned
    for months. The softball schedule came out last week. My Dad would
    really like to have his granddaughter at the party. I informed Lisa's
    coach that she wouldn't be at Saturday's game. I was told that, if she
    didn't show up, not to bother having her come to any further games.
    
    A birthday party versus a major sporting event. Seems like a simple
    choice on the surface, right?
    
    Well, not really. Lisa has one grandfather who is still alive. She has
    another 10 years of playing scholastic/collegiate ball ahead of her. I
    told her coach to stick it. 
    
    You know, I learned something quite a few years back....institutions
    like DEC, my town softball team, the old DEC hockey team I played for,
    etc will be around long after I either stop working or playing. And,
    when the chips are down in my life, the ones I can *ALWAYS* count on
    are my wife, kids, Mom and Dad. So, if it means that I miss a game or
    don't work OT or hold my kids out of a game so that another member of
    my family gets my support, I'll do it.
    
    As far as the prom/baseball thing goes, I think those kids were
    confronted with a no-win choice. If they chose to forgo the prom (which
    is probably scheduled a year in advance), they would have broken a
    commitment to their dates, their dates' parents, their parents and,
    also, threw money out the window. If they chose the prom, they would
    have broken a commitment to teamates, coaches and school pride. 
    
    I love sports. Don't get me wrong. But, my commitment to family far
    outweighs any other commitment that has to do with sports.
    
    Rich
     

    Specific to the prom/game fiasco.....I'm confused!!  The account I read
    stated that the starting time of the game was changed to allow the
    players to attend BOTH the prom AND the game!!  A little inconvenient,
    perhaps, but doable!!!!!  I personally think that the players screwed
    their teammates BIGTIME!!!
    
    As for important birthday parties vs. important athletic
    events.....this is not meant as a condemnation of the previous noter's
    father...or anyone else....but I would hope if the situation arises
    someday in my life, that I wouldn't let my own self-importance get in
    the way of a big event in a family member's life!!  I'd get more
    enjoyment from hearing my son's (or grandchild's) account of the big
    district game he played in...which kept him away from my party, than I
    would influencing his decision on whether or not to choose my party
    over the game!!!
    
    
    Nelly

    
    Hold the party at the softball field!
    
    thth,
    Kev
    

    re .487
    
    Rich, I'm shocked that you didn't get that coach called on the carpet
    for his high-handed manner. What a jerk !

    
    That would be my take on the situation, Nelly.  However, the coach is a
    jerk and way out of line for refusing to honor someone else's
    priorities like that.  This is not a case where one person is taking 
    everyone else down with him/her.
    
    A while back Metz questioned the priorities that are placed on high
    school sports and I didn't get a chance to clarify.  I agree
    wholeheartedly that in some cases, where parents are living through the
    accomplishments of their kids, priorities are way out of whack.  The
    sports that are usually associated with this phenomenon are football
    and basketball, particularly in certain regions of the country (I've
    personally seen it with football in Pennsylvania, for example). 
    However, this is *not* what I meant when I said that when confronted
    with *some* difficult choices that the kids have to consider some 
    commitment to their teammates and those who funded the activity.  I 
    did not mean that they had a commitment to live up to the images of 
    glory that their parents or others in the town may have put in front 
    of them.  Far from it.  With me, it was always a sense of personal 
    commitment and pride that made me feel some responsibility, not the 
    winning or losing, or succeeding or screwing up.  Hell, when I played
    baseball in high school there were never more than a dozen spectators, 
    and I can't remember my parents ever even attending a game, not even 
    the two times we made it to the state tournament.  They knew (having
    experienced the same in their youth) that something like baseball 
    playoffs were important to all of us (four brothers), but they weren't 
    going to meddle either way, pushing or pulling.  That fact didn't make 
    a bit of difference in my outlook towards the activity...
    
    glenn
     

    re a couple back
    
    We're not talking state championship or district championship game
    here. We're talking first game in the district. The problem is that
    some of the coaches place the importance and commitment to THEIR team
    and sport above all other things.
    
    I happen to believe that sports has become far too important in our
    lives and it needs to be put in perspective.
    
    And, Nelly, to look at it another way, I guess I wasn't thorough enough
    in my note. If I had said my Dad is quite ill, don't you think, years
    from now, my daughter would feel much better about spending a last
    birthday with him than at a preliminary tournament game?
    
    Doc - What can you say? Down here, you don't bad mouth the Baptists,
    Robert E. Lee and softball coaches.
    
    Rich
    

    
    A recent article in the paper shows how much more emphasis we put on
    sports.
    
    Sports scholarships to universities are given out I think 5 - 1 more
    than academic scholarships.
    
    \pjb

    re: .493
    
    I agree that things are out of whack, but what is the definition being
    used when you mean scholarship. Full academic scholarships, partial
    academic scholarships, based on need, based on grades+scores+whatever??
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    This is also the high school sports note, and athletic scholarships are
    not in question!  The kids' commitment to the activity is being
    considered with full acknowledgement that academics are priority #1 (at
    least I haven't heard anyone arguing to the contrary). 
    
    glenn
    

    I agree that the coach is being heavy-handed in this situation, and
    calling him a jerk is probably going easy on him!!!  Also, the health
    of the grandfather being less than well, certainly adds a key
    ingredient to the equation!!  
    
    The coach:  It would appear to me that he is over-stepping his bounds
    by saying "if you aren't there Saturday.....don't bother showing up at
    all!!!" . I don't believe that is his decision to make!!  That sounds
    more like the domain of the School Committee....and they would NEVER
    (regardless of city or town) throw a player off a team for missing a
    game due to a personal conflict!!
    
    
    The grandfather: Sorry to hear that he is not well.......
    
    
    A nit:  Although the game is not a State Championship game, you don't
    get to the Championships without winning the preliminary games!!!
    
    
    
    
    

    I think this is different because it doesn't seem like Rich's
    daughter missing the game will cause the team to forfeit the game.  I
    also think the circumstances are such that an absence from this first
    game should be excusable.  Missing the first game won't necessarily
    cause the season to be over.
    
    While I think the coach is being a little bit unreasonable in telling
    Rich's daughter not to show up the rest of the way, he does have a
    right to demand a certain level of commitment from the players on the
    team.  I was at my folks house on Saturday and read the local paper
    about a dispute between Lynnfield LL Baseball and Lynnfield Youth
    Soccer.  Because the soccer travelling squad games are at the same time
    as a majority of little league games, and kids missing baseball for
    soccer have caused baseball games to be forfeited in the past, baseball
    is keeping the soccer playing kids from reaching the level where there
    would be a conflict.  In other words, the kids who play soccer are
    being "blackballed" from moving up.  I don't like it, but I see the
    point of the baseball people - it hurts an awful lot of baseball
    playing kids to have to forfeit.  Their point is that soccer is a Fall
    sport, and baseball is a Spring and Summer sport; and in season, a kid
    should only play one or the other.  Disclaimer - I don't live in
    Lynnfield, know none of the personalities involved and don't know why
    schedules can't be changed around.
    
    Summer activities for families make scheduling summer sports
    nightmarish under the best of circumstances anyway.  It was tough when
    I was a kid and I suspect it's gotten worse.  Of course, I grew
    up when parents would never take their kids out of school for family
    trips, either.
    
    And if that playoff game in New Hampshire was really rescheduled so
    those kids could do both, although they'd arrive at the prom a bit late
    then they had no right to let down their school, coach and teammates
    the way they did.  Every effort seemed to have been made to accomodate
    both commitments.
    
    John

    re last paragraph of .497:
    
    The accounts I read said that the game time was moved up from 7:00 pm
    to 4:00 pm.
    
    
    py

What time did you people start your prom night? I figure I started mine at around
4:00 getting dressed, Then it was off to the girlfriend/date's for pictures and
general BS with her folks, Then it was back to my house for more pictures and
BS with my folks, then it was off to the pre-prom party (my prom was a dinner
/ dance..many kids go out to dinner before the prom) then it was off to the
prom that started at around 6:00.....

with the financial commitments most of the kids make today for the prom (tux,
flowers, prom, limo(which we never did...) ) moving the time of the game to
4:00 wasn't that much of compromise....I find it hard to believe that the
two schools couldn't have rescheduled the game to some other time/date....I see
parental / school administration involvement as the major culprit here..

The prom is more then just the dance...it's the whole evening..next day thing
for most kids..

Metz
 

    Rich's daughter's coach seems to be over-reacting, and maybe he's just
    a little nervous about the upcoming season.  When I coached my
    daughter's softball team, believe me, unless you try to apply some
    strict rules, the girls will take advantage.  My problem was that I was
    too relaxed, and by the 3rd week into the season, I had problems
    getting a complete team at every game consistently.  But, this is
    certainly excusable, as Rich certainly seems like the type of parent
    who makes sure his kids honor their commitments within reason. 
    Unfortunately, and sadly, there are far too many parents who do not
    think this way.  And maybe, this is why the coach reacted like he
    did...
    
    Hawk
    

    <.497
    
    The baseball/soccer conflict is not unique to any one town.  The way 
    USYSA and regional soccer championships are set up makes soccer 
    a spring sport.  
    
    The Mass Youth Soccer Assoc Tournament of Champions, as well as the 
    State Championship for NCCL premier clubs are based upon the results of 
    spring seasons - championship games (winners go on to regionals and 
    nationals in the summer) are in progress now.
    
    My town runs a fall program (recreational for all players), then chooses 
    select competative teams for the spring.  We do have cooperation for
    the most part between baseball and soccer program scheduling.
    
    CBB
    
    
    
    
    

    I can't even begin to count the number of events my wife and I have
    missed/sacrificed/rescheduled...etc for the sake of our kids sporting
    events. I realize that when my children are either assigned a team or
    make a team that I will support their commitment to participate in
    scheduled events to the best of my ability.
    
    I love sports and, believe me, (I know you parents in here can attest
    to this) there is such a wonderful feeling when you see your offspring
    make that basket, hit that breaking ball or score that goal. My
    daughter was hitting in the low .200's going into last weekend and
    exploded out of her slump going 2-3 Friday night, 3-3 Saturday and 2-3
    Sunday with 8 RBI's. All the coaching I had given her, all the patience
    I had given were finally rewarded. And when my son made a diving stop
    at 3rd base in one of his games this past weekend, got to his knees and
    threw out the runner at first, my chest was about to burst with pride.
    
    That said, notice that games were played Friday, saturday and Sunday.
    That is pretty much the case every weekend from the beginning of our
    season in late March until the end of the regular season in June. That
    doesn't count weeknight practices and games.
    
    We try to encourage the kids to honor their commitment. On weekdays,
    they must complete homework - before - going out to play. My wife and I
    haven't been able to plan much since every weekend is taken up with
    baseball/softball. 
    
    So I think, is sports the only commitment these kids have? Conflicts
    over a 3 month period are inevitable. It can't be avoided. All
    conflicts up until this time have been resolved in favor of sports.
    This meant not celebrating my 15 wedding anniversary as I would have
    liked (a weekend in Virginia Beach), not going to the pool to cool off
    during a 90 degree weekend and several other things. And I felt that
    this was a good investment to make for my kids since it was healthy,
    clean activities.
    
    However, when conflicts arise, as they always will, I think the person
    who has two commitments should be able to make that commitment without
    being castigated and derided by others. Sports is nice. It requires a
    commitment. But family is better and IT requires a commitment. Each
    family is different. Each handles commitments in different ways. I
    prefer to feel bad for these HS ballplayers who did not get a chance to
    participate in this championship game while respecting the choice of
    those who elected to honor a different commitment.
    
    My real ire is aimed at the officials who put these kids into a
    position to lose either way.
    
    Rich
    
    
    

    Rich, that was a nice note regarding the resolution of family conflicts
    and activities.  I never really appreciated it while growing up and
    I've seen it firsthand over the last 5 years, first from dating someone
    with teenaged children and then from watching my cousin give birth to
    and raise two kids.  The last 5 years have really given me an
    appreciation of what being a parent is like, and with the birth of my
    first niece 10 days ago (thanks to my sister, after a long and
    difficult labor) I imagine I'll see it even more.  (To all of you who
    are parents, I never appreciated how difficult it is until the last 5
    years and I never really appreciated my parents until experiencing part
    of it first hand).
    
    As far as the sports in Lynnfield situation goes, to whoever replied to
    my note, I don't know any other data other than what I reported.  I've
    never been involved in youth soccer.  I've never been involved in youth
    baseball below the American Legion level.  I do know when I was growing
    up there were no conflicts between baseball and soccer because there
    was no soccer.  You played baseball in the spring or summer or you
    played nothing.  I think it was sad that baseball "blackballed" the
    soccer players because the sports in the towns are for the benefit of
    all the kids and the organizing groups should be able to work together
    to allow kids to play as many things as they want.  I understand why
    the baseball people did it though - to force the kids to make a
    commitment they'll keep - but I don't necessarily like their method.  I
    felt it would shed some interesting light on this very interesting
    discussion.
    
    As far as the Manchester situation goes, I hope my final words are as
    follows:
    
    1.  I do disagree with the officials.  Perhaps an effort should have
    been made to play the game at noon, or 1, or 2 or something that would
    have enabled those kids who were committed to the prom also to go.  I
    don't know what efforts were made in this direction.  I hope some were.
    
    2.  I feel worse for the kids who weren't going to the prom and were
    unable to play the game.
    
    3.  I feel bad for the kids who decided to go to the prom over the game
    because of the position they were put in.  At the same time (and I
    don't consider this deriding or castigating), I disagree with their
    choice and feel they let down their teammates, coach and school.
    
    4.  I have tried to separate my personal dislike of proms from my
    opinions here.  I think too much money is spent on proms and there are
    too many incidents of drunk driving and other misbehavior because of
    them.
    
    John

                           
    > 3.  I feel bad for the kids who decided to go to the prom over the game
    > because of the position they were put in.  At the same time (and I
    > don't consider this deriding or castigating), I disagree with their
    > choice and feel they let down their teammates, coach and school.
    
    I'd consider it deriding and castigating and I'd also endorse the
    position.  I too later heard the clarification that the game was 
    re-scheduled to allow both activities with some inconvenience (and
    let's be serious, the people who organize these things are generally
    dedicated and devoted far beyond what they get out of it personally,
    and are not out to screw anyone), and I know if I was in the 
    *majority* that wanted to play the game I wouldn't be understanding; 
    I'd be livid!  I'm not buying this business about missing out on 
    seeing the parents before the prom, etc.  Seems to me to be a small
    sacrifice to make to a team of guys who had battled their way to the
    state championship...
    
    glenn
      

    Re soccer - baseball conflicts
    
    In the past, as John said, baseball was the only sport, so there were
    no conflicts. Now, soccer is played in the fall in HS and college, but
    at other levels it's played year round, except for winter (they do have
    indoor leagues in some towns). Ideally, these should be played on
    different days to allow kids the most opportunity to play as many
    sports as they want, but that isn't always possible in scheduling
    fields. When I was in HS I played in a summer soccer league Monday and 
    Wednesday nights and Tuesday/Thursday nights I drove to North Adams (45 
    miles) to play in a hockey league. I was lucky that the sports were on 
    different days, but if not, I would have had to make a choice. This was 
    in addition to working the 7-3 shift at a local plastics factory. 
    
    The point is that kids are forced to grow up too quickly these days. I
    get the feeling that in this day and age of specialization, most kids
    will be forced to choose between sports at an earlier age than in the
    past. Sure, at some point they will have to decide what their
    priorities are, even if it means giving up playing sports totally
    because they'd rather have the extra cash from working at a job. If
    that's their choice, fine, as long as the choice is 100% theirs.
    
    In the Lynnfield situation, this should have been made clear to the
    players at the start of the season: Since soccer and baseball are on
    teh same day, you have a choice. You can play one, but not the other,
    becasue missing half the games (in either sport) simply isn't fair to
    your teammates and coaches. Once the choice is made, if kids drop off
    of one team, other repacement players can be reounded up so that the
    teams can still play a full schedule.
    
    Tom

    Glenn, are you agreeing with or disagreeing with what I said?  My
    derision/castigation remark was in response to Rich, because I was
    trying to point out that I could disagree with their decision without
    being nasty about it.
    
    John

    
    > Glenn, are you agreeing with or disagreeing with what I said?  My
    > derision/castigation remark was in response to Rich, because I was
    > trying to point out that I could disagree with their decision without
    > being nasty about it.
    
    I'm in total agreement with you, John.  I guess I just went one further
    and maybe overextended the meanings of the words "deriding" or 
    "castigating", but it was clear to me that you are critical of the 
    decision (a position I agree with...)
    
    I don't think there's anything nasty about saying that if I were placed 
    in that position I'd be livid, as opposed to being placed in the other
    (inconvenienced prom plans).  Wouldn't you?
    
    glenn
    

    If I were on that team, I too would have been livid, because I think
    being a little late for the prom as opposed to causing a forfeit was
    indeed the lesser of two evils in this case.
    
    Tom, I agree with you about kids having to grow up too fast.  I think
    about my cousin's kids vs my own childhood and notice the following:
    
    1.  My parents had 6, my cousin is stopping with 2.
    2.  Cousin lives on a main street, we lived in a housing development on
    a cul-de-sac.
    3.  No kids within immediate walking distance for my cousin's kids to
    play with, at least 2 dozen kids all roughly the same age in mine.
    4.  We could be as unstructured as we wanted to because we had the kids
    nearby to play anything (and did).  While my cousin lives near a school
    she's reluctant to let the kids go down there and play because they're
    likely to be alone.  That ain't safe for little kids anymore,
    unfortunately.
    
    It almost seems like structured activities are the only way to go
    nowadways, and it's sad.
    
    John

    As I stated earlier, I think the kids that blew off the game screwed
    their teammates!!!  My junior year in high school, we had a game the
    day of the prom....and it was just a reugular season game.  Granted,
    game time was 3:00 (i believe).....and in town.....but the prom was
    slated for 6:00 (horses ovaries (sp?)) out of town.  As much as we (the
    juniors) felt harried by the situation, it never entered anyone's mind
    to blow off the game!!  The coach told us that if possible (ie,
    depending on the score of the game) he'd let us leave early.  My date
    knew I was a ballplayer.....that's probably the only reason she was
    going with me.....and would likely have thought less of me for f***ing
    over my teammates had I blown off the game!!
    
    Too each his own, but I for one think very little of the player and/or
    his date if they justified hosing many so as to not ruin 'their'
    night!!
    
    
    Nelly

    I guess my angle on this whole episode is a little off from the
    original intent i.e. high school prom age. I'll get to that a little
    further on.
    
    John brougt up some interesting points on the differences of being a
    child today versus 20-40 years ago. When many of us were kids, we would
    hop on our bikes, baseball glove strung on the handlebars and pedal off
    to the Little League field for a game. Or, we'd ride our bike down to
    the school yard during the summer or after school and play ball for
    hours. I used to walk 2 miles through the winter down Route 1 with my
    hockey stuff and spend hours on a frozen pond.
    
    Today, we have notices from the police about suspicious looking adults
    crusing the neighborhood and schoolyard. Signs are posted about a drug
    free zone. Pushers are seen not only in urban areas but in supposedly
    affluent suburban areas. Drive by shootings are spreading. Kids are
    being killed.
    
    So, we find we have regimented recreation for our kids now. We take
    them by car, we stay and keep an eye on them, we dedicate much more
    time than our parents did out of fear. 
    
    Now, this inordinate amount of time spent with the kids gets to a
    point where we ask ourselves: When the heck do WE get a chance to have
    a life? Why do you think soccer has caught on? It's an effort to get
    every kid involved and off the street, that's why. 
    
    Being a parent is always looking over your shoulder, feeling the worst
    sense of panic when you don't hear a reply to a call for your child's
    name and, also, the wonderful feeling of seeing your kid smile while
    enjoying a sport.
    
    Now...
    
    I may be way off base on this but I think proms were first started as a
    poor mans' answer to debutante balls. The rich folk would have their
    country club extravagnazas for Buffy and Chad and the rest of the folks
    had the Halloween hop in the HS gym. So, the prom was started in HS to
    give the kids their first taste of an elegant evening out with a member
    of the opposite sex. A chance to adhere to the society rules at a
    fraction of the cost incurred by Buffy and Chad.
    
    It became a ritual for many kids and, to some, a very important step in
    the maturing cycle. And parents saw this as the first time they
    witnessed this pimply-faced malcontent dressed as an "adult" and taking
    his/her intiaL move into adulthood.
    
    Sound simplistic? Well, if and when my kids go to a prom, I'm going to
    be pretty proud. And, if my daughter uses money she has earned to buy a
    gown, get her hair done etc and is stood up at the last minute because
    her date is breaking his commitment to her, I'm gonna be pissed.
    
    If the guy thinks there is a chance he will have a conflict, he should
    never have asked the girl out. If he DID ask the girl to the prom, he
    needs to stick by that commitment. Heck, a regularly scheduled game
    would not conflict with a prom. So, this would be a situation where a
    guy had a reasonable assumption that his team was good enough to have a
    chance to make a playoff. In that case, he shouldn't ask a girl to go
    to the prom or accept an invite to the prom.
    
    Rich
      

    Rich brings up some interesting points about what being a parent is
    like now.  I can see that a lot of it about kids and organized
    activities is due to safety reasons.  It's something that makes me feel
    really, really bad because among the most valuable experiences of
    childhood are those hours spent in free play.  This is not meant as a
    bash of all you parents out there, because my own family members are
    probably just as guilty, but it seems to me when kids have all their
    time organized for them, there just isn't any chance to let kids be
    kids.  The reasons are valid but it still seems like something is
    missing.
    
    I still think a lot of what I see is changing demographics too.  My
    parents moved from Chelsea into a housing development 34 or so years
    ago, when I was 2.  This was tract housing, one story slab ranches,
    designed for first-time buyers.  I can remember a group of us of about
    20 who all lived within a 5-minute walk of each other.  The only
    organized sport anyone was ever in was Little League.  The City of
    Peabody had (and still has) a well-organized summer program at the
    playgrounds but there wasn't one nearby.  All summer if we wanted (and
    after school) was a never ending game of some sort.  We'd ride our
    bikes in the street.  We'd go sledding on the golf course in the
    winter.  We'd have fun and the only person who ever complained was the
    crabby old lady from across the street who didn't like the noise.  No
    one ever got seriously hurt and no one got into trouble.
    
    I walk around the neighborhood now and I never see any kids.  The
    streets are empty, even on beautiful summer days.  Many of the folks in
    the immediate vicinity of where my parents are now have grown children
    but there must be other young families around.  See no kids?  Hell, I
    never even *HEAR* any kids.  Where are they?  Are they cooped up in the
    house?  Do they spend their time in their yards?  Are they being carted
    around from activity to activity?  I don't know, but the old
    neighborhood seems awfully empty now.  It's not just because my peers
    have grown up and moved away.  I just don't hear or see kids out having
    kid-type fun, and it saddens me enormously.
    
    John
    
    PS - as far as the conflict between an athlete and his/her prom, it can
    be handled up front easily - "I'm playing a sport and while our regular
    season will be over, we may have playoffs, and I may be late."

    
    re:  crabby old lady across the street
    
    Funny how every neighborhood seemed to have at least one Elmira Gulch
    and one Boo Radley.
    
    Dickstah
    

    
    I hear what you guys are saying about the safety of your kids and
    that's one of the reasons I moved out to southwestern New Hampshire
    from Nashua, where there is some affordable housing and space to move
    around.  I think changing demographics does have a lot to do with what
    you're experiencing.  There are kids all over the place in my town (New
    Ipswich), and while I'm certainly careful because anything can happen
    anywhere, I don't feel that the kids are any more at risk than I was as
    a kid.  For me, that (and a big yard) goes a long way when weighed
    against real estate appreciation and other considerations like that.
    
    glenn
     

    >> PS - as far as the conflict between an athlete and his/her prom, it can
    >> be handled up front easily - "I'm playing a sport and while our regular
    >> season will be over, we may have playoffs, and I may be late."
    
    EXACTLY!!! John, I think we have come to agreement on this issue.
    
    Glenn, What John perceives in his mold Peabody neighborhood has,
    unfortunately, spread like a cancer everywhere. Cars drive faster on
    roads that have not been upgraded to accommodate increased traffic,
    reporting of child kidnapping is up, drugs have been a breeding pot for
    violence which snuffs out innocent lives...
    
    I don't care whether it's in New Ipswich, NH, South Central LA or
    Horseshoe, Montana....things have CHANGED. I spent the first 4 years of
    my life growing up in Jamaica, NY. Plus the next 10 summers. As a
    child, it was normal to play stickball in the street, ride tricycles in
    the schoolyard and play tag beteen buildings. There were certain areas
    where city gangs hung out but these gangs left the little kids alone. 
    
    When we moved to Mass, I lived in the house right across from where
    Grossman's is today on Route 1. Used to ride my bike down to east
    Walpole, down to Walpole center, to Bird Park, anywhere there was a
    field to play ball on. And John is right, there were kids out playing
    everywhere. Building tree huts, shooting hoops at the basket mounted on
    the telephone pole, making njoise with that '52 Mantle card clacking
    against the spoke of your bike...
    
    And today, you go through neighborhoods and you see moms or baysitters
    or dads in the front yards supervising their youngsters. Or carting
    them off to structered activities. And these kids are, indeed, missing
    out on being independent thinkers because of all this structure.
    
    At the elementary school my son goes to and the middle school my
    daughter attends, they have rules for a parent picking up a child. It
    is very rigid and there are strict procedures to follow. When I was a
    kid, my mom would write a note telling the teacher to let me out at
    noon for a dentist appt. The teacher would tell me at noon I was free
    to go, I'd run out to the bike rack, hop on my bike and go to the
    dentist.
    
    There are reasons for the changes. A tremendous increase in the amount
    of cars on the roads. Driving habits. Turf wars where there are no
    innocent bystanders. Drug sales. Child molesters. These things are not
    limited to the city anymore. I recall shopping with the wife and kids
    at Rachel's in Foxboro a couple years ago. Foxboro, for heaven's sake.
    All of a sudden, the uniformed security guard is pushing people over in
    a frantic rush to the front door and the PA system is telling us that
    nobody can leave the store. Seems some sick-o had taken an unattended 3
    year old girl into the changing rooms, cut her hair off, put boys
    clothes on her and had attempted to sneak her out of the store. I
    recall the sobs of the girl's mother clearly: "I thought she would be
    OK. I only took my eyes off her for a minute".
    
    Now, if you witness something like this, how are YOU going to approach
    caring for YOUR children? Overprotective? You bet your life! Is it fair
    to the kids? No, but neither is it fair to the kids to have them
    exposed to so many possible dangers.
    
    Sad, really. 
    
    Rich
    

RIch -

Exactly.  Well put.

Heck, I grew up in the Bronx.  A name that sends shivers down the spines of
most people I talk too.

Every day I went around the block - by myself or with my sister, to play with
my friends - and we played stickball in the street.  Cowboys and Indians.
Army.  We played Acey/Duecy with a handball off the 5 and 10 store's side wall.

Once a week, my friends and I made the 3 block trek to the used comic book
store to buy our Fantastic Four and Spiderman comic books.  We were young.
And no one bothered us.

The only real supervision we got is when my grandfather walked us up to St.
James park - which was a good haul, so we could play on real grass, and he
could Kibbutz with his fellow Irish ex-patriates.

Then to Pearl River, where my friends and I played all day long, in the street,
endless.

But as you say, traffic patterns have changed.  Also, TV and nintendo and
computer games have really made inroads into many of today's surburban 
youths.   

We never stayed inside on nice days - and on rainy days we played board
games.

I mention games like Flashlight tag to my nieces and nephews and they look
at me like I'm from Mars.  Plus, as my sister says, no one would feel safe
letting thier kids play in the dark outside.  

The sleeply town my parents moved to from the Bronx has had TWO murders 
committed in it this year.  Last year, some guy kidnapped a high school girl,
raped and brutalized her, and then killed her - in the daytime.

Its sad and strange to think that my sister, living in a nice, quiet, surburban
town like Pearl River, NY, has to worry more about leaving her kids out to
play, then my parents did with us in the Bronx.

JD

    Drugs and guns are obviously the major differences between life today
    and life in the past.  Plain and simple, they're on the streets in 
    numbers you just didn't have 20 years ago.  But this is not to say that
    everything was completely safe when we were kids, either.  Four out of
    five of today's child molesters were yesterday's child molestees.  We
    just didn't hear about it (the local case involving this priest is a
    prime example of this).  My kids are young now, so they're not going
    anywhere unsupervised anyway.  But when they hit their early teens, I 
    know I'm not going to be able to control their every move.  At some 
    point you've just got to try and put them in the best possible
    environment and have hope, I guess...
    
    glenn
    

    Yup, JD, your relations on the Bronx are similar to mine in Queens.
    Talk to folks today about Da Bronx and Jamaica and they shudder.
    Remember getting on the wrong train and getting lost in Bedford-Sty? Or
    Uptown Manhatten? No big deal - then. Today? Heck, might as well mail
    it in.
    
    I know one of my favorite shows today is Brooklyn Bridge. In a syrupy,
    simple way, it depicts what I remember of my city childhood. The
    opening still photos really hit home. Handball courts, Coney Island,
    etc.
    
    Glenn, the one item you left out in things that have changed is the
    tremendous increase in auto traffic. Remember, we had no interstates,
    there weren't parking lost at the high school for student cars. Anybody
    driving in a neighborhood usually lived there - hence there was a
    tendency for respect of residents. The huge increase in volume of cars
    has added to the danger of kids riding bikes on the side of the road.
    
    And, Glenn, you are absolutely right about crimes against kids being
    reported more openly today than when we were kids. Just as divorce was
    an alien thing to us (it DID happen), so was child abuse. Kids have
    been abducted and molested since the beginning of time. Yet, today's
    expanded news coverage and a thirst by the populace to pore over
    grisley details have made us more aware of these things.
    
    Rich
    

    >> PS - as far as the conflict between an athlete and his/her prom, it can
    >> be handled up front easily - "I'm playing a sport and while our regular
    >> season will be over, we may have playoffs, and I may be late."
    
    While this may be the definitive answer to this problem, how many high
    school kids can reason like this?  Would you have thought of this when
    you were a high schooler?  I know I wouldn't have.  And very, very few
    would, IMO.  A 30-something mind has much more sense, experience, and
    maturity over an 18 year old's...
    
    Hawk
        

    If you remember an earlier note I put in, Hawk, I said "Of course, high
    school kids aren't exactly famous for long-range thinking" or something
    to that effect.
    
    On kids not being able to just be kids anymore ...
    
    The more and more I see what's going on in the world today, the more
    convinced I am that parents have the toughest job in the world and it's
    probably damned near impossible, with lots of bad implications if you
    screw up.  I haven't really appreciated how tough it is until the last
    5 years or so, and now that my siblings are having children I hope I
    can be a good uncle and help out in some way (and for that matter, help
    with my cousin's 2 kids too).
    
    John

    
    BTW, nobody's mentioned the effect of clear thinking on a testosterone
    full 17-18 year old male when it comes to a date versus a sporting
    event!
    
    Sheesh, you guys caint be THAT old to remember what you were like at
    that age!
    
    I remain,
    as full of it now as I was then!
    Kev
    

    Speakin a full of it Kev,
    Why do I have this humorous picture in my mind. Kev Farley,
    jumpin' up and down goin' Eeeeeeee, Eeeeeeeee as he opens the
    door for his prom date
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    
    

    
    Revise THIS!
    
    "Kev Farley,as he opens the door, goin' Eeeeeeeee, Eeeeeeeee
    jumpin' up and down on his prom date!
    
    ;^)
    
    --dan'l_for_Kev
    

Kev didn't have time for any of that EEEE-EEEEE'ing - he was too busy trying
to give that damn organ grinder's monkey the slip - the monkey wanted his
suit back!

JD_for_KEV

    yabbut it DID get me into the dancer's dressing room unseen!
    
    
    
    I remain,
    doing eeeee eeeee's under my breath
    Kev
    

    HAHAHA Kev,
    When 'Saw tole me dat story, ah liked to die!
    How'd ya pull it off?
    
    MikeL
    

    OK, time to bring this note closer to home.  
    
    I am going to Annapolis next weekend to compete in the first of three
    tournaments of the East Coast Water Polo League.  The fellows were
    planning on leaving Friday.  Now my manager has called a group meeting
    and when I asked her yesterday, she said it would be best if I didn't
    miss the meeting.
    
    Facts are: I told my manager in April that I would be needing three
    Friday's off during the summer months.  The meeting was called two
    weeks ago.
    
    I really don't feel like driving the eight hours myself after work and
    then play first thing the next morning.  What would you do?  (Keep in
    mind the rumors filtering around the company.)
    
    	--dan'l

>    I really don't feel like driving the eight hours myself after work and
>    then play first thing the next morning.  What would you do?  (Keep in
>    mind the rumors filtering around the company.)
    
Personally?

Wif da rumours floating around, I'd go to the meeting and make the drive.

However, when you tell her that you will be at the meeting, find out if
you might leave a bit early, and DEFINITELY get commitment on the 
other two Fridays you will need.


That's the best compromise I can think of....


'SAw

    Ditto.  Make the meeting, then drive....
    
    Another related coincidance.  Wednesday night was my daughter's last
    game of her softball season.  After the game, her coach named the
    team's 3 all-stars, of which my daughter was one.  Part of the
    obligation of being an all-star is to play in the all-star game at the
    season-ending picnic.  Wouldn't you know that this picnic is on the
    saturday that we'd planned to go to Grandma's house in NY to celebrate
    her 78th birthday.  Grandma (my mother) is the only grandparent that my
    kids have left.  Grandma has also been pretty neglected the last
    several months.  Had she not come over to our house for Christmas and
    Easter, we wouldn't have seen her since our Thanksgiving visit.  But
    Grandma understands that the spring-time is a very busy time for us
    with lots of sports commitments on weekends.  Anyway, we'd planned this
    trip for months, literally, and Grandma is psyched on us finally coming
    to visit her.  But, Julie gets voted an all-star.  It was her 1st time. 
    Last year, she felt she deserved it, but barely missed in the voting. 
    Now, she's wicked psyched and really, really wants to play the all-star
    game.  To top it off, the coach had to know that night if she wasn't
    going to play so he could get a sub.
    
    Luckily, the weekend before Mom's birthday and all-star game weekend is
    a light weekend, and the only commitment is a mandatory swim team meeting
    for parents and kids, which I will take care of.  And, both Mom and
    Julie win.  In fact, we get to celebrate Grandma's b-day earlier, and
    Julie gets to play and get her all-star trophy with the rest...
    
    It ain't friggin' easy though...
    
    Hawk
    

    
    As I placed in a previous reply to this note, this Friday evening at
    Doyle Field in Leominster, the Central Mass Football All Star Game will
    be heald. In the last note, I didn't mention the names of some of the
    players, so I will do so in this one. I will only mention the South
    squad, because that is the one I am most familiar with. 
    
    	Some of the players on offense are:
    
    	QB - Ramon Martinez  - David Prouty
    	     Mark Barnes - Southbridge
    
    	RB's - Eric Chamberlin - Southbridge
    	       Dan Mathews - Doherty
    	       Ernest Ansah - Worcester South
               Paul Baptiste - Westboro
    	       Jeff Parcells - Uxbridge
    
    	WR's   Kyle Heppenstall - St. Johns
    	       Chad Burns - Uxbridge
    
    	TE's   Steve Leavitt - Milford
    	       Eric ???????? - Shrewsbury
    
    	OL     Jaime Danforth - Oxford
    	       Brian Gelineau - Shepard Hill
    	       Phil Hanaka - Westboro
    	       Travis Dolson - Northbridge
    	       Dave Dineen - St. Peters
    	       Chris Hurley - Grafton
    	       Steve Rapella - Milford
    	       Seth Hmelelowski (sp) - Southbridge
    	       Roger Olds - West Boylaston
    
    
    Defense:
    		D line - Darryl Anderson - Bartlett
    			 Keith Lermond - Northbridge
    			 Jason Kamazaridies - Southbridge
    			 Jeff Fox - Burncoat
    			 Matt Tetro - Burncoat
    			 Matt Maudsley - Worcester Voke
    			 Christian Widen - Auburn
    			 Jaime Davis - Oxford
    
    		LB's 	Phouc Huyen - Burncoat
    			Colby Compton - David Prouty
    			Phil Davis - Bay Path
    			Andy Peloquin - Northbridge
    			Tim Devlin - Uxbridge
    			Tony Potenti - Worcester North
    
    		DB's    Charlie Boivan - Bay Path
    			Dan Coonan - Holy Name
    			Tony Reno - Oxford
    			Sean Armbruster - Bartlett
    			Jason Saywer - Southbridge
    			Jim Hendrickson - Shrewsbury
    			Mike Paladino - St. Johns
    			Mike McGlaughlin - Auburn
    
    
    
    I think I got just about all the players. This should be a real good
    game. 
    
    
    
    Coach
           

 I saw a quick item in this morning's sports page about a high school
 football player, a lineman from Dearborn Heights, Mich.    His mom was
 quoted as saying that she doesn't like to watch her son play 'cause he's
 her "baby" and he might get hurt.
 
 The kid is 6'-11" and weighs 360 pounds.
 
 Whew ...
 
 Bob Hunt

    Why can't we see that kind of size in Mass???? I coach high school and
    our biggest lineman is about 6'2, 230. That isn't bad size, but he
    barely bench presses 200lbs!!!!!! Our strongest kid is our fullback, he
    benched 250lbs and leg pressed 900lbs.
    
    
    Could be a long season in Panther-land.
    
    
    
    
    Coach

>    Why can't we see that kind of size in Mass???? I coach high school and
>    our biggest lineman is about 6'2, 230. That isn't bad size, but he
>    barely bench presses 200lbs!!!!!! Our strongest kid is our fullback, he
>    benched 250lbs and leg pressed 900lbs.
    
Coach, that 6'11" kid has got to be a freak of nature 8^)

To me, the sizes that you state for your team are pretty normal for
the high school age group.   Just rely on their quickness ;^)


Guess that fullback is gonna be doing a lot of blocking this season, 
eh?

And just for us folks from outta state -- what town is your team in,
and where do they play?


'Saw

Hey Coach, check this out - I've been spending about every other week
in the Harrisburg, PA area.  They get between 12K and 20K fans for their
High School games.   

Man, in 4 years, I don't think my high school drew 2k fans total.

They had 20K for a game in Harrisburg lasted week.  And the kids are big!

JD

    
    	I played JV ball down in Texas as a sophomore.  The crowds for
    	our games there were 5X bigger than what we drew here in Colorado
    	for varsity games!
    
    Claybone

>    	I played JV ball down in Texas as a sophomore.  The crowds for
>    	our games there were 5X bigger than what we drew here in Colorado
>    	for varsity games!
    
And I'll be they came out to see the pulling guards run roughshod over
the leetle teency cornerbacks.....8^)


'Saw

    
    	Francis, you DAWG! :*)
    
      	I played JV in Austin.  EVERY single high school in town ran
    	whatever offense & defense that the UT Longhorns ran.  Back
    	then, it was the wishbone......
    
    Claybone

>    	Francis, you DAWG! :*)

I'm just feeling my oats today, Claybone.  One of the fine ladies in the
gym last night called me over and told me she thought I was losing
weight.   Made me feel REAL good.  (The guys tell you that you're losin
weight for your ego, the ladies tell you true....)

    
>      	I played JV in Austin.  EVERY single high school in town ran
>    	whatever offense & defense that the UT Longhorns ran.  Back
>    	then, it was the wishbone......

I remember them days.


I was surprised in the ND game last week that ND actually ran an old
T-formation.  Two halfbacks and a fullback, straight across behind the
QB.  Can't remember the last time I saw that!


'Saw

	Claybone!

   Must have been lucky to play in Austin, not having to travel. In our
district the school B team's had to travel on the week the Varsity stayed home.
That way the home town crowd got to get their weekly fix of a football game 
of some sort. Love those 90 mile school bus trips.  

Cadzilla

    	Whenever I see a high school player weighing over 300 lbs. I
    start wondering if it's chemically enhanced.
    
    				/Don

>    	Whenever I see a high school player weighing over 300 lbs. I
>    start wondering if it's chemically enhanced.
    
Some are, some aren't.

There are some naturally BIG kids out there.  But chances are there
are also some juicers.

You gotta check for the warning signs (horse teeth, enlarged nipples,
massive thighs, zits....)


'Saw

>    of what, puberty?

No, I'm talking about someone say 16,17 years old.

Of course, you have to juice for a while before those show up.  I guess,
from what I've read, the first sign would be mood swings (ie 'roid rages).


I know if I ever have a kid who's going to be working out in a gym, 
I'll make damn sure that I go and check out that it's a clean gym....


'Saw

	Dave Richards now with San Diego was 6-5 305 at Highland Park in Dallas
He was rated #1 prospect and on all the HS All-America teams his senior year.
Went to SMU,xfered to UCLA when the Ponies program got the death sentence

No word on his use of 'roids' though

Cadzilla 

    	Why is it that all these 300 pound monsters always come from
    states where football is a religion?  Could there be a connection?
    
    				/Don

    'Saw,
    
    Ah got a better way to keep those tennagers with hormones pulsating
    wildly away from 'roids!  100% certain !!!
    
    Tell 'em that roids could make ya sterile!
    
    My brother told that to my nephew and he thought it meant *impotent*.
    THAT is the LAST thing a teenage boy wants to hear - use 'em and get
    a flaccid woodie!
    
    ;^o
    
    Kev
    

>    Tell 'em that roids could make ya sterile!
    
Well, it is true that your testicles shrink up.  That stands to reason
because for the most part, they are there to produce testosteron, and
if you're injecting yourself with it, they'll think they don't need to
do anything.

Course I've also heard that you feel like a bull stud all the time,
so I guess you wouldn't wanna tell your kid that 8^)


'Saw    

    The size of the average American has been increasing with each
    generation so today's high school kids are bigger as a whole than we
    were.  You can see the differences in pro sports.
    
    There is a lot more attention paid to weight lifting in college and
    especially in high school than there was when the vast majority of us
    were in high school.
    
    States like Texas and Pennsylvania are so football crazy that kids with
    any size at all are encouraged to lift and get big.  Many other states
    have spring football and organized weight lifting.  It's more of a
    cultural thing than anything else.  In New England, there's not the
    football mania there is in other parts of the country.
    
    Football recruiting has shown that they can find big kids anywhere. 
    The real difference between New England and the South is speed.  The
    weather is conducive to year-round speed work and as a result, kids
    from other parts of the country are faster than around here.  If you
    look at any school in the Northern part of the country, their linemen
    tend to be local but they go to the other parts of the country for the
    speed guys.
    
    John

    Well, if the kids are getting bigger all around, we don't see in in
    Spencer. Must be in the water. :^)   We have a lifting program for the
    kids during the summer, but not all take part. That fullback increased
    his bench press from 195 max his sophomore season to the 250 he max'ed
    in August. he is one of the few dilligent workers we have on the team.
    The big tackle, I say big for this area, is not quick by any stretch of
    the imagination. I'm quicker than he is and I'm 32 and close to the
    300lbs mark myself. (Not from weight lifting, either. Unless you count
    12oz curls)
    
    
    		As I was reading the other replies about football in the
    other parts of the country, I thought about the book Friday Night
    Lights. There is a book that any high school football enthusiest should
    read. I don't think we've had 20K at all of our football games since I
    started coaching 4 years ago!!!!!! These people eat, live, and breath
    football. I think if anyone was to try to put in a soccer program they
    would be shot. Imagine going to court after killing a person who tried
    starting a soccer program.
    
    Judge - "What's the charge."
    Lawyer - "Murder."
    Judge - " Well son, you want to explain?"
    Defendent - " Well, yer honor, this foreigner, I thinks from Oklahoma
    er somewhere, tried to start up a soccer program. Yup, right here in
    Odessa. Well, I just couldn't let that happen. Ya know what I mean yer
    honor, Permian Pride and all."
    Judge - "DISMISSED"
    
    Football is religion down in Texas where here, at least at my school,
    it is something to do after school.
    
    
    Oh well, tonight we open up against Tantasqua, a game I belive we can
    win, but after that, it will be tough. The kids a good, though,l they
    have a great attitude so we coach them hard and never give them any
    chance to slack. If they believe, so do we. 
    
    
    later............Coach

I read that Book...It sort of made me disgusted about the pressure put on those
kids by the townspeople...

Another article that had me pretty disgusted was the article in SI last week
about the Citadel and their hazing programs...Those guys take themselves
waaaaay to seriously for a school that isn't even affiliated with the military


Metz

    And the Blue Devils are off to an auspicious start... losing 6 zip.

One of the gutsiest things I've ever seen was reported Sunday on
CBS Sunday Morning.

Homestead High School, in Homsstead FLA is planning on playing football
this fall, despite all the destruction down there, and the fact that
their field is all messed up.

The report was about opening day of school at Homestead High, and they
included a section on the football team.   I was wicked, wicked 
impressed.

Homestead High gets a 4-star review from the Chainsaw!


'Saw

    In today's Boston Globe listing of the Central Mass. high school
    football  standings, West Boylston is not listed under the Southern
    Worcester County League.  Was this just an omission, or have they
    dropped football?
    
    
    py

    West Boylston has dropped put of the SWCL. They are still playing
    football, playing all the SWCL teams this year, then probably adjusting
    their schedule in years to come. They have joined the Dual Valley
    league for their other sports. For the football rankings, look in Div
    III. Next year, Auburn will join the SWCL in all sports.
    
    FYI - WB is undefeated so far. It looks like the thing with the Tahanto
    players is helping out as Jon Jennings, who attends Tahanto, but plays
    for WB, is one of the leading scorers in Central Mass.
    
    
    Coach

    re .556:
    
    Thanks for the info.
    
    
    py