Conference 7.286::sports_91

    
    Buddy Ryan is now available.  I highly doubt that Art will sign him
    though.  Buddy has a tendancy to alienate players.  One never knows
    though.  
    
    The 1990 season highlights.
    	1. Dawgs dump donks.
    	2. Dawgs get 2nd pick in the draft.
    	3. Oilers watching the playoffs at home, just like the Browns
    	   but they don't get a high pick and they (the Oilers) still
    	   have never won and AFC Central Title.
    

    Ryan and Modell would never last thru training camp.
    
    Ryan tends to turn the players against the owner and I doubt if too
    many owners will take the chance and make him a Head Coach after seeing
    him try that in Philly.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    While I agree about Ryan and Modell, I disagree about Ryan not getting
    another chance. I think he'll end up somewhere. he turned the Eagles
    into a winner (he has been the 4th winningest coach over the last three
    seasons) and he generates interest in the team. I think Tampa Bay, with
    the attendance problems they have ben having, would be interested. All
    the Bill Walsh talk to Tampa Bay is just BS.
    
    Dennis
    

    
    Anybody hear anything about Georgia Tech's coach going to the Browns?
    
    - Ken -

>    Anybody hear anything about Georgia Tech's coach going to the Browns?
    
    Bobby Ross talked with Modell this week and said later, "I'm not
    interested in that job.  The issue is dead."
    
    	--dan'l

    The last former Georgia Tech coach to be hired as a head coach in the
    NFL was Bud Carson.
    
    Chris
    

    A Cleveland Plain Dealer columnist was interviewing Chiefs owner Carl
    Peterson.  Peteson said that the best thing to happen to the Chiefs was
    the Browns' firing Schottenheimer.  The columnist immediately ran to
    Modell and told him
    
    Modell wrote Peterson a letter that said:
    
    	In the National Football League, there are a number of cheap shots.
    	Yours was one of the lowest in the history of the league.
    

    Look for the Browns to come back into AFC contention this comming
    season.  The team has learned alot this year and the front line will
    be much healthier!  Look for the Browns to pick a defensive player
    in the draft!
    
    	Awwoooooo!
    

    Holy Sh!t, Hal Returns only ONE DAY after the Super Bowl was played, 
    
    MINUS the BROWN(SPOT)S(tm)!!!!
    
    I see you are still predicting big things for the 'Spots.
    
    What'll make them so much better next year????  ARE THEY GOING IN WITH
    A COACHING STAFF OF 23??????????
    
    JaKe
    

    
    HaHaHa Jake!
    
    I just found the file again.....but, I did get a couple of messages
    forwarded to me from friends....they were ones that you wrote in here.
    
    What will make them better, you ask.  Like I said, the front line
    will be back together and hopefully no injuries!  The Browns had
    alot of people starting last year that needed experience.  
    
    I will guarentee that they will have a better record this comming
    year than last!  
    
    I still wonder why they haven't gotten a new coach yet.  I would
    think that they would want to fill that spot as soon as they could.
    
    I just heard that ole Bud (not for you) took a job with Phili.  He
    will be their new defensive coordinator.
    
    The Browns just got off on the wrong foot last year, with the resigning
    of key players and all.......
    
    	Awwwwoooooo
    

>    I still wonder why they haven't gotten a new coach yet.  I would
>    think that they would want to fill that spot as soon as they could.
    
    They've tried, Hal.  No one wants the job.  Apparently, it's the NFL
    equivilant of working for Steinbrenner.
    
>    I will guarentee that they will have a better record this comming
>    year than last!  
    
    Now that's going out on a limb, boy.  
    
>      -< Giant's couldn't do it without the help of an ex Cleveland guy! >-
    
    Don't forget that that "ex Cleveland guy" is wearing three Super Bowl
    rings...the first two are from Pittsburgh.  Did anyone else notice the
    proliferation of "ex Cleveland guys" on all the playoff teams?  Some
    good personnel moves there, Art.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    	I can only see one thing that Art did last year that caused
    trouble....When he purchased that guy from New England!  this
    caused all the holdouts!  I feel he should have paid everyone
    what they wanted and tried to have everyone there at the begining
    of the season.  I would have to think that that won't happen this
    comming season.  Then again, lets look at the Cavs...they paided
    everyone what they wanted and what happened?  They are allready out
    of the playoffs.
    	Reguarding Barr though...I hated to see him go!  He did have
    a good year though...you have to look at what he did in Cleveland the
    last year.  Not really much...in fact, he lost a couple of games.
    	I guess thats Arts fault, he doesn't put up with people who
    cause the team to lose games.  Just like Byner!  I'm still happy
    to see him go, allthough I was hoping to see him fumble the ball
    away in the big game, instead, in Washingtons last game, he did 
    nothing!  I guess it's just like Pittsburg....he choked!  cough!
    
    	Awwwooooo!
    

    
    The Browns need to hire a coach that will take charge of the
    organization.  Modell is the owner, he should not be involved
    in player personel details.  With the right coach and the
    right moves (specifically obtaining maximum value with the
    2nd pick in the draft and taking full advantage of plan B),
    the Browns could be right back in contention in the AFC Central.
    
    Hal, have a clue about the Cavs.  They are hurting because of
    key injuries to Williams and Price NOT BECAUSE THEY PAID THE
    PLAYERS WHAT THEY WANTED.  The two events are coincidence!

    
    ICEMAN,
    		Isn't that the way it goes though.......do the right things
    and it all turns out bad???  Thats why I say, the Browns will do the
    things needed next season, but, something will happen........I figured
    the Cavs would be in top contention this year, then what.  Everyone
    gets hurt.  I do see though, Ferry has started connecting on his shots.
    His percentage must be comming up.  
    
    	I would like to see Don Shula's son get the job in Cleveland.
    
    	Awwwooooooo!
    

    
re .14

    Answer :
    
>    	Awwwooooooo!
 
    Question :
    
    What is the sound you make when your team gets it a** kicked 13 times
    in a football season ?
    
    heh heh heh 
    
    Doc
       

    
    Wrong Doc,
    
    	Thats the sound of very VERY *VERY* hungry Dawgs waiting to be
    unleashed on the National Football League this comming season.  
    heh heh heh 
    
    Grrrrrrrr!
    
    	So, has anyone seen next years schedual yet???

    As I say every year:
    
    The "who" part of the schedule has been released.  No, I didn't save a
    list of who the Browns are playing because I don't particularly care. 
    The "where" part of the schedule has mostly been determined.  The
    actual schedule doesn't get released until April.
    
    John

    
    But John, they're probably playing your Patriots this year!  So you
    should care a little bit.  
    
    Should be nice to have a Ben-Gals type schedule for a change.
    
    /Jeff

>    Should be nice to have a Ben-Gals type schedule for a change.
    
    Jeff, first glance indicates the following:

	Aside from their 6 Central games, they play:

	NFC East - Giants, Eagles, Redskins, and Cowboys

	5th place AFC teams - Patriots and Broncos

	4th place AFC teams - Jets and Chargers

	And either 1st or 2nd place AFC teams
	Raiders or Chiefs and	Bills or Dolphins

	Enjoy :^),

	Jim M

    Bill Belichick was at Artie's house last night ironing out some last
    minute details.  (Wonder if they invited Bernie over for a threesome.)
    He is expected to take the Browns coaching job today.  Wonder how many
    assistants he'll need.
    
    Personally, I think the Browns could have done better.  Belichick
    reminds me of the 'Rod Rusts' of the NFL.  With a defense like that,
    how can you look bad?  Steelers D didn't miss a step without Rust and I
    don't think the Giants D will miss without Belichick.
    
    I think the Browns needed an offensive man at the helm or someone who
    has been a head coach somewhere else up until now.
    
    Good luck to Bill, though.  I hope he turns them around.
    
    	--dan'l

 dan-l give Bill some credit too. While you're correct he does have the
 players he also changes his schemes and adapts well to stopping a team
 during the game. He should be given credit for making these adjustments.
 He's got 16 years experience at coaching so even though he's only 38 he
 should be ready to step up. I just wish it had been anywhere else but 
 Cleveland....

 mike

    
    Its official.  Belichick is the new Browns head coach.  I see it as a
    step in the right direction for the Browns. 

    re-.1
    
    What direction do they have to go but up???Unless they want to mimick
    the Pats next season.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Up from last season maybe, but 5 playoff appearances in 6 years and 3
    trips to the AFC finals isn't shabby.  Its not reaching the peak, but
    its decent.  The Steelers on the other hand are looking for their
    first division title since what the early 80's?
    

The first thing Belenchik(sp) should do is fire Art Modell.

Watching that jerk hand carry Belenchik to the press conference made me puke. 

    
    
    Mike,  I guess based on your dismay over Belicheck getting the job, you 
    think he's gonna do a-excellent job?   
    
    Good, I like that!    
    
    /Jeff

    
    Well... its a weak draft and I don't know if there's much chance to
    trade the 2nd pick for two lower 1st round picks or a 1st and 2nd...
    or something like that.
    
    This draft is deep in linemen, so the Browns should draft one or
    two in high rounds, but with the new man being defensive minded,
    we'll have to wait and see...

The Giants loss is the Browns gain.

I wish Belichick all the luck in the world.  I'm glad he went into the
other league where we won't have to play him that much.  BUT we will
see him next season.....


'Saw

>>     <<< Note 56.24 by ROCK::GRONOWSKI "the dream is always the same..." >>>

    
>>    Up from last season maybe, but 5 playoff appearances in 6 years and 3
>>    trips to the AFC finals isn't shabby.  Its not reaching the peak, but
>>    its decent.  The Steelers on the other hand are looking for their
>>    first division title since what the early 80's?
  
    Groaner
    
    All this BS and $.50 may get you a cup of coffee.  We're talking future
    here not past so get with the story.  If we want to talk past, as you
    always revert to, I can only say one thing:
    
    
    FOUR SUPER BOWL VICTORIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    What can you say for the Brown(spot)s(tm) play in the Super Bowl, er,
    um, uh, I'm waiting,  what's that, they've never played in one.  Oh
    well, 'nuff said.
    
    JaKe
      

    

    
    BTW Jake, thanks for the money (er I mean compensation) for the
    wager we made... pleasure...  maybe again next year...
    

    How High did the check bounce???????
    
    Don't spend it all in one place.
    
    JaKe
    
    

    The browns remind me of the broncos.....except at least the broncos
    get to the superbowl.  The only thing that really matters is winning
    the big one, Look at it this way the patriots have been to the super
    bowl more times than the browns.....does this mean anything...Not
    really the pats lost.  The central needs some new blood, Ik like to
    see houston or Pitt win the central next year.
    								MaB

    Jake, be consistent.  If you're going to start the argument about Super
    Bowl rings, let me remind you that the Browns won NFL titles in 1950,
    1954, 1955 and 1964, were in the NFL title game in 1951, 1952, 1953 and
    1957 and won 4 AAFC titles.  Their string of 6 consecutive NFL title
    game appearances and 7 appearances in 8 years has never been matched in
    NFL history.  The NFL Championship game in that era *WAS* the Super
    Bowl.  If you include the AAFC years, it's 5 titles in a row, 10
    straight title game appearances and 11 title games in 12 years.
    
    In other words, if you're going to bring up historical success of the
    two franchises, the Browns kick the Steelers' butts from Pittsburgh to
    Cleveland and back.
    
    John

    
    	I like this John H. guy!!!
    
    
    Awwwwwooooooooo!
    

    
    > In other words, if you're going to bring up historical success of the
    > two franchises, the Browns kick the Steelers' butts from Pittsburgh to
    > Cleveland and back.
    
    Yeah, but it'd be nice if it happened in one's lifetime so one could
    actually enjoy it...
    
    glenn
    

    
    re: .35
    
    Kind of like the Red Sox, huh?

    > Kind of like the Red Sox, huh?
    
    Absolutely.  But at least there's been a few thrills along the way...
    
    glenn
    

    
    re: .37
    
    Like there haven't been with the Browns?

    "the thrill is gone..."

    
    >         -< no thrills with the sox because losing is a GIVEN! >-
    >
    > re: .37
    >
    > Like there haven't been with the Browns?
    
    I agreed with you.  The comparison you made between the Browns' history
    and the Red Sox' was an excellent one.  I'm glad you suggested it; I'll
    file it away somewhere for future reference...
    
    glenn
    

    Re JHendry
    
    John
    
    The operative words in my reply were "SUPER BOWL", not NFL
    championships from the Ice Age.
    
    For the last quarter century the Brown(spot)s(tm) have been a close but
    no cigar to getting into the Super Bowl.  The Steelers were there 4
    times and came away with 4 rings.  Although some of the
    Brown(spot)s(tm) "championships" were in my lifetime(sort of dating
    myself there I guess), I was much too young to remember them.
    
    I were off sick a couple of days that's why it tookl so long for me to
    enter this reply.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    playing devil's advocate here:
    
    Jake, I guess you can't count the Steeler's championships in, oh
    let's say 20 or 30 years.  It will be ancient history then......
    
    Claybroon

    Let's not forget the Browns big-time chokes in title games ...
    
    34-0 to the Colts ... 27-7 to the Vikes ... 59-10 to Detroit 
    56-14 to Dallas ...3 straight gags to the Donks .. and of course to
    wild-card loss to the Oilers ... to name a few ....

    Re Claybroon
    
    You got a point there, BUT, even then the Brown(spot)s(tm) will be
    searching for that elusive FIRST berth in a SUPER BOWL game.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    The Browns may have lost many times as noted in 56.43, but
    they have won equally as many or more including the incredible
    string of title game appearances with Otto Graham at QB.
    
    BTW Jake, when did the Steelers win all of those championships, 
    2 decades ago (that's ancient history)!
    
    Either way you look at it, the Oilers have never won an NFL
    Championship, and to make matters worse, they have never won
    an AFC Central title... (and they won't next year either).
    

    Since there is interest in discussing the merits of modern day
    championships vs. past championships, I have moved the appropriate
    notes to a new topic - #100.

      past smast....the spots will choke again!  Especially if they play
    Denver;^...Look for the soilers to win the central next year, 'cause
    the steller and bangleds will be incosistant as usual.
    
      AFC west will dominate over other AFC divisions next year. The ills
    and soilers will be the only teams in the playoffs;^^
    
       Of course youze guys can't hold me to these predictions;^^
    
    
    	T-bone

       oops....make that ills and soilers will be the only teams in the
    playoffs from other AFC divisions besides the AFC west.....
    
    	T-bone

    
    What a laugh... the past two years... and possibly more the AFC central
    has had three teams in the playoffs.  Pretty incredible considering
    that there are only 4 teams in the Central.
    
    The Oilers will NEVER win an AFC Central championship with Warren Moon
    at QB.  Cody Carlson proved in the regular season finale that a young
    stiff can walk into the starting role and put up shotgun inflated
    numbers.

    Pa-Pa-Pa-Pleaseeee....If you throw more passes and your not a good
    QB then you throw more interceptions and win less games....The Oilers
    would have been in the playoffs (longer) if Moon was healthy...And
    Cody Carlson proverd in the 1st game of the playoffs that an average
    QB cannot control the run and shoot.....Did you watch the Oilers play
    at all, and I suppose the Browns (kosar) are better then the Oilers
    (moon)....Pa-Pleaseee...Even a HUGE Browns fan couldnt really believe
    this..Thats like saying seeing that the Browns only had 2 more wins
    then the pats that Wilson is just as good a QB as kosar....Gimme a
    break...
    	Houston has a great shot at taken the Central if Moon stays 
    	healthy (Who knows maybe cody will get some PT next year and
    	mature a little, that could ice the cake for a Houston Central
    	division title)
    								MaB

    re .50
    Does 38-10 and 58-7 mean anything to you ????

    
    Bottom line...  what is Moon's record as the Oilers starting QB... 
    what is Moon's record as the Oilers starting QB v.s. the Browns
    (hint...  they'd qualify for the one of the top picks in the
    draft with Moon v.s. the Browns)!

      So is the rumor true,  Breniece Kosar is quitting football to be a
    hair dresser?   Some Spot fan told me this today......
    
    	Tj

    
    	Tj.....thats totally untrue!
    
    	Now, the Browns held their first mini camp a couple of weeks ago...
    
    	News, Pagle is gone or I should say, will be gone by the beginning
    of the season.  The Browns front office told him to start looking.  He
    doesn't fit into the new team.  Who will take his place?  The Browns
    signed plan B, Cinci backup.  
    
    	The kicking team.....they are all gone!  The blame was put on them.
    New punter and new place kicker.  I can't remember their names though.
    
    	Offensive line....will remain intact.  Major injuries have healed
    with two at every position.  Don't look for the Browns to pick
    offensive line people in the draft.
    	Rad Dan is gone also, the front office has placed the blame for
    last years faults on him.  They say he didn't train the oline on how
    to handle changing defensive stunts.  They've gone back to the original
    oline coach.
    
    	Defense...Minifield will be back....no questions asked.  Felix
    Wright is gone!  Michale Dean Perry is unsigned as of yet.  Hope the
    front office don't screw up this year and sign him early...give him
    what he wants!  Look for the Browns to take all defensive people in the
    draft.
    
    	Tight end....Ozzie is gone and is the tight end coach this year.
    Who is going to take his place...look for lawrance Tillman...yep,
    beleive it or not.  The Browns told him that this is where he will
    play.  Lawrance was upset and said he couldn't beleive it because he
    was drafted as a wide receiver and hadn't had the chance to prove
    himself there because of injuries.  
    
    	As for Bernie goes, he said he is 100% and that his thumb has
    healed with no problems. 
    
    	WOOF!	WOOF!	WOOF!
    
    
    		Down Bones! Down!
     

    Re.58
    Sounds like 4-12 to me!!!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

   I'm rollin Hal

   I can see the headlines now:

                 CLEVELAND SUCKS! KICKING TEAM IS TOO BLAM!

   Mike JN

    
    Hey Jake,
    
    		Have the Squeelers gotten read of the big Bubble yet?
    
    	Seriously though...
    
    		I think you will see a big turnaround with this "New"
    	Browns team this year.  If, and thats a big IF, the injuries are
    	low.
    
    	GRRRRRRRRR!
    
    

    
    Mike,
    
    		It wasn't only the kicking team last year.......
    
    	The kicking team had probibly the most blocked punts and field
    goal attemps in history...
    	The offensive line didn't know what they were doing on the field...
    ...blame Mad Rad.....get read of him.
    	The backup QB couldn't do squat....get read of him.
    	The defense was in termoil because of the signing of one player for
    way too much money.  Players resented it and their play showed it...get
    read of him....Felix Wright.
    	Injuries played a big part in not having any success last year.
    
    	Hal

    The only turnaround the Browns are going to do this year is, while
    enroute to Pittsburgh, Bernie will realize he forgot to pack his
    crotchless leather teddy and 'implore' the bus driver to do a U-Turn on 
    I76.
    
    Seriously, however, I do think the Browns will be back, though not at
    the top of the division.  It will be another season of underachieving
    by all four teams and the one that gets hot at the end will take it.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    We'll have to wait and see what turns up in the draft.  I feel the
    Browns have the foundation needed to make it to the playoffs this
    comming year.  The defense will be their biggest problem I think.
    
    	The defense was the biggest problem last year!  But, then again,
    maybe they were on the field too long to begin with.
    
    	AWOOOOOOOOOOOO!
    

    So, how many assisstant coaches will Cleveland carry this year ?
    
    heh heh heh ...

Browns have Bill Belichick as their head coach.  He and Bill Parcells
turned the Giants defense from a sieve to one which was capable of
winning it all in 1986 and 1990.

I agree with Jake, I don't think it will be *this* year, but give Bill
a season or two of patience, and the Browns will be formidable.....

JMHO,
'Saw

    hal
    
    Re your "IF", If your uncle had t!ts you'd call him "Aunt"!!!!
    (8^0*
    
    JaKe
    

    Woof?

    
    	Well, here we go again.........
    
    	A few back...The Browns will have a few coaches less than last
    year.  That is pretty funny though.....maybe they don't need so many
    because the youngsters have grown up...
    
    	Re>:  Jake
    
    		Speaking of *IF*...*If* the Squeelers had a real QB,
    instead of a winner (Waa Waa Waa) they may have contending team.
    
    	WOOF!
    

>    	Re>:  Jake
>    
>    		Speaking of *IF*...*If* the Squeelers had a real QB,
>    instead of a winner (Waa Waa Waa) they may have contending team.
    		  ^^^^^^
    
    Your subconscious is getting the best of you, Hal.  Glad to see you
    fess up.
    
    	--dan'l

    Dan'l:
    
    I agree with your reply.  Hal made a Freudian and probably wears a
    Brister shirt to bed each night.  Hal knows that Brister is a beer
    drinking takes-no-shit kinda guy, while Bernice is a perrier drinking
    fudge packer/packee who couldn't hit his a$$ with his hand last year.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    YEA???
    	Well, at least Bernie doesn't have to have his Mommy at every game!
    
    WAA WAA WAA
    
    	Go change the bubble's diapers, will ya!
    
    	GRRRRRRRRR!
    
    		Sick em bones!!!
    

      Miss a few days in the file, and see what happens...Mile hi this year
    Hal (I think), so start writin' the excuses down now.
    
      As to the spots o-line,  last year was terrible, and this year won't
    be any different.
    
    	Tj

    Hal
    I've gotta question.  You're all "Brown(spot)s(tm) GungHo" after a
    spring mini-camp, BUT, will we see you in here once the season starts
    and the 'Spots are 0-3 or 0-4 or will you pull the same disappearing
    act you did lasted year once they hit the skids???
    
    JaKe
    

    
    	Oh Jake,
    
    		I'll be here.....just for you!  The question really is,
    	will Bubble butt Baby be even in the league by the 4th game???
    
    		Grrrrrr!
    

    I'll believe it when I see it.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Hal your Facks need a little work..  
    
    the D-back you mentioned whose signing upset the entire defense was 
    Raymond Clayborn not Felix Wright.  
    
    Felix has actually been a pretty steady performer over the years (many 
    ints.) and I'm not suprised Minn. picked him up on Plan B.  
    
    Browns made a lot of Plan B signings themselves this year, should be
    interesting to see how these players and the 2nd and 29th picks in the 
    draft meld into the team.   
    
    I agree the Browns should draft defense..  Their first priority should 
    be a defensive lineman to help free up Perry ... you can't double team 
    2 linemen at the same time..  2nd priority defensive back, they've
    really lost here since Minnifield and Dixon were at their prime.  
    
    The O-Line should be much improved this year..  last years model didn't 
    really come together till the season was all but over due to the last 
    minute (training camp) retirement of 2 vets.   
    
    Should be interesting in '91...   have to agree with some of the other
    noters, though, it's gonna take a few years to come back from last
    year.... this is a nearly total rebuild!  
    
    /Jeff  

    The 'Spots picked up John Reinstra (OL) from the Steelers via plan B.
    
    Now someone else can watch him stand on the sidelines, useless as
    a nun with mammaries!!!
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Jeff,
    		I don't beleive I said Felix was the guy the Browns signed
    	that caused all the trouble.  Felix was with the team for several 
    	years and had some good ones at that, in fact, the year before
    	last, he had the team high in interceptions.  Then came his
    	contract last year.  He held out till just before the first game
    	because of the signing of Raymon.  He was still very bitter when
    	he signed and his play last year showed it.  I think he only had
    	2 INTs last year compared to 11 or 12 the year before.  The Browns
    	took note of that and deceided that he was the cause of many of the
    	Browns defensive problems.  That is why the Browns let him go.
    		As for picking a defensive lineman in the first round....I
    	think they should go for a cornerback...I thoght that is where 
    	Minifield and Dixon played....?  They both won't be around for much
    	longer anyway.  Minifield's contracts ends after this comming year
    	and I don't think the Browns will try to sign him again.  Second
    	pick...should be a linebacker.  Clay can't last much longer.  He
    	will move up to the line soon.
    		Back to Felix, he will probibly play much better for the
    	Vikings than he did for the Browns.  He will be being paid better.
    		So, what about Tillman?  How do you think he will fit in at
    	tight end?
    		I also have my doubts about the wide receivers we allready 
    	have....I don't think they are fast enough anymore....
    		I'll post any new info I get as soon as it arrives.
    
    	And, No, I'm not a member of the Bernie Kosar Fan Club this year...
    	Don't ya know, I got my birthday card from him.....Late!
    
    	Hal
    

    
    
    I've said this many times before and I'll say it again...  Tillman
    is NOT a TE.  When are the Browns going to learn their lesson.  You
    do not draft a player and move him, unless you are convinced he can
    make the transition.  The Browns drafted Tillman and figured he could
    play TE... he can't... he's a WR.  They tried to move Metcalf to WR...
    he's a RB.
    
    The Browns will probably draft defense in the 1st round because of
    their new head coach... they better pick up one or two OLs in rounds
    2-5 or they'll be in big trouble.  The only way the line will get
    better is to draft some guys with talent and dump the stiffs they have
    that can't get the job done.  
    
    What makes me laugh about all these Steeler fans/bowling pins is that
    the Steelers have been the worst team in the AFC Central over the past
    5 years and the Browns have been the best... so get a life... the
    Steelers are going nowhere until they get a QB...  They could probably
    get Eason for cheap... he's not a real QB, but he's better than what 
    they have...  bank on it... the steelers will draft a QB this year
    within the first 5 rounds...

    
    OK, Hal, I miss understood what you were alluding to regarding Felix..  
    of course half the starting defense held out last year, so I think the 
    whole root of the problem was the signing of Clayborn.. Bad move.
    
    Tillman at Tight-end...  sure, he's a big bruiser, in fact when he was 
    drafted a lot of the press had him penciled in there to begin with.  
    Maybe this year he may actually play in a game..  Signing him was 
    another bad move by the Browns.  
    
    Add Metcalf to the equation and you've got 3 or 4 years of wasted top 
    draft picks..  only notable player the Browns have gotten through the 
    draft lately has been Perry.  
    
    
    Matthews is done..  I think he's headed down hill in a hurry..   
    
    Luckily they've hired a defensive minded head coach (funny, wasn't that 
    the rap on Schottenheimer), who can rebuild the defense...  if the
    O-line comes together (it was real green last year), the offense should
    be able to put some points on the board. 
    
    /Jeff

    Steelers drafted a QB in the third round last year, Neal O'Donnell out
    of Maryland.  Unless something happened to Rick Strom, Pittsburgh's
    fairly good second stringer, I doubt seriously if Pittsburgh will draft
    a QB at all (unless something too good comes along...not likely in this
    year's draft).
    
    Brister is their man (boy).  He needs to grow up and I honestly don't
    know if he has it in him to do so.  But he does have talent and Noll is
    committed to him.  Even Hal thinks Brister is a winner...of course he
    thought the Browns were winners last year also...gads.
    
    And here comes Gronowski with that "last five years stuff."  Back in the
    early 80's when the Browns sucked to high heaven and a Steelers fan
    would bring up the four super bowl victories, the Clevelandites would
    chime right in with "Past History, buddy."  (Which, by the way, is
    redundant.)  Now they have such little confidence in their team, "Past
    History" is all the Cleveland fans can find to talk about.  
    
    I think the Steelers and the Browns will end up with identical records
    this year at 8-8.  Browns will rebuild and be an OK team.  The Steelers
    will waste loads of talent due to a breakdown in team chemistry.
    
    And if Houston doesn't win the division this year...when will they?
    
    	--dan'l

Well, I for one know what Belichick can do for a club.

You win championships with defense, and Bill knows all about that.
Rebuild the Browns D, and in time (IF they give him that time) the
club will come around nicely.

It's exactly the same kind of thing Parcells faced when he came to New York
in the early 80s.  Belichick has had a good mentor, and faces a tough task.
While not a Browns fan per se, I'll be watching with interest to see how
he does.....

'Saw

    
    Did I say winner?????  Well, my mistake, I ment to say
    
    	Bubble Butt Baby Bruster is a   - - - - - - -
    
    			W E N N E R !
    
    	Get the picture or do I have to draw this one out?
    
    
    		(----8
    	       .
    	      .
    	     .
    	     .
    	     .
    	.............  <puddle of pee
    
    
    	WOOF!	WOOF!	WOOF!
    
    

>    Did I say winner?????  Well, my mistake, I ment to say
>    
>    	Bubble Butt Baby Bruster is a   - - - - - - -
>    
>    			W E N N E R !
>    
    
    I used to think the NC school system was bad until Hal started posting
    notes.  How did you pass second grade, Hal.
    
    8-)
    
    	--dan'l

    Dan'l
    
    He is from Clevescum.....Whaddya expect.  Shyeeeet, he's lucky he can
    spell his own name if he went thru the Clevescum school system.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Would anyone mind posting the Browns picks in the draft?
    
    	I haven't seen the paper yet...
    
    	Tanks,
    		Hal

    1st round  Brown(spot)s(tm) picked their nose
    2nd round  Brown(spot)s(tm) picked their a$$
    3rd round   "   "   "  "    picked up a case of nonoxynol-9 for Bernice
        to brush his teet with.
    
    
    Shlep dis shlopes
    
    JaKe
    

    make that "teeth"
    
    
    JaKe
    

    1. Eric Turner, db, UCLA
    2. Ed King, g, Auburn
    3. James Jones, nt, N. Iowa
    4. Pio Sagapolutele, dt, San Diego St.
    
    I think that's an excellent first four rounds, though I think they
    should have gone after another O lineman instead of the NT.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    I agree with dan'l.  The first pick was decent.  I think they liked
    Lyght, but he had made some comments about Cleveland that Art didn't
    like so they went with Turner.  King was a good pick.  The definitely
    need OL help.  I also agree that they should have drafted another
    OL in either round 3 or 4... but with a defensively oriented coach,
    they went for D.  Moten was available late in the 2nd round.  They
    could have traded up and gotten him.

    
    	The Browns were rated a "B" after the draft.
    
    	Cinci, Squeelers were rated a C.
    
    	Houston was rated a C+.
    
    	The second game of the season for the Browns are here in New
    England.  Is anyone planing on getting tickets???  If so, let me
    know.  I wana go!
    
    	Hal

      Well Hal,  It looks like the Broncos come to the O hi o this year. 
    Hopefully they won't change the end of the field to give the Browns the
    pull it out of Arts pocket win.
    
    	Tim

    
    	HaHaHa, Tim,
    
    		That was totally lagit!  It won't make any difference
    this year though.  And, even if the change in direction did win the
    game for the Browns, what does that say about those donks?  Not much
    if a little wind made the difference in the game.  The object is to
    win, by as much as possible.  The squeekers will allmost allways go
    to the home team.  
    		I haven't seen the schedual yet.....could someone post it?
    It would be nice to see who they play at home and away.....
    
    		Thanks,
    			Hal
    
    	AWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
    

    Sun	Sep 1	Dallas		1PM
    Sun Sep 8	at New England	1PM
    Sun Sep 15	Cincinnati	1PM
    Sun Sep 22	at NY Giants	1PM
    Sun Sep 29	Open Date
    Sun Oct 6	NY Jets		1PM
    Sun Oct 13	at Washington	1PM
    Sun Oct 20	at San Diego	4PM
    Sun Oct 27	Pittsburgh	1PM
    Sun Nov 3	at Cincinnati	1PM
    Sun Nov 10	Philadelphia	1PM
    Sun Nov 17	at Houston	8PM
    Sun Nov 24	Kansas City	1PM
    Sun Dec 1	at Indianapolis	1PM
    Sun Dec 8	Denver		1PM
    Sun Dec 15	Houston		1PM
    Sun Dec 22	at Pittsburgh	1PM
    
    John

    Hal:
    
    Win => Won => Winning
    Whine => Whined => Whinning
    
    Hope, Hoped, Hoping this helps.
    
    	--dan'l

    Shhhhhhhhh.  I was waiting to see if Hal caught that.
    
    Well, at least that's my excuse for a heavy right index finger. 8-)
    
    	--dann'l

She whined because I wined her and dined her, for I surely wanted to win
her, but she said "Silly fool, you'll never win me that way".

She wanted to see the Browns, but I said they hadn't been winning, and 
next thing I know she starting whining.  I said "What are you whining about?
The Browns not winning?"

She replied "No, I'm whining about you not winning the wine in the contest"

I asked "What contest?"

"The contest you didn't win," she whined.....

    John,
    		Thanks!  I'd bet the Browns will *win* between 10 and 13 
    games this year.  Tough games...Phili, Dallas, San Diago, maybe, just
    maybe, Wash and Giants.  Schedual looks good though....only 2 away 
    games in a row.  I'm not going to *whine* about it!  
    		Oh, and thanks guys for poining my spelling error out.  I
    didn't know you all could be soooooo nice about it.  Well, if thats
    the only mistake I make, I'll be happy.  I could have sworn I typed
    an h in there.....my finger must have slipped.  
    
    		Anyway, should be an interesting season.
    
    	WOOF! WOOF! WOOF!
    
    		Down Bones!  Get back in there!  You still have a couple
    	of months to wait......

    One of the losses will be at New England on September 8.  Take it to
    the bank.
    
    John

    Hal, 
    
    You could probably get countless numbers of people to bet with on that
    10-13 games won prediction.  
    
    I see the 'Spots as losing 10-13 this year and cleaning up the floor of
    the AFC Ceentral.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    	John,
    		I know its early, but, I would take you up on that one!
    No way, thats, NO WAY, the Browns will loose to the Pats.  The Browns
    problem last year wasn't because of poor talent.....it was because of
    injuries, punter, place kicker & coaching...all of which have been
    replaced.  The Browns will be formatible this year!
    
    	Jake,
    		Your even funnier!  I'd also like to take you up on that
    one too.  10-13 losses?  BTW, when are you moving?  I saw in USA Today,
    the other day, that Pittsburg has one of the highest rates of people
    moves in the country.  Everyone is moving out...I don't emagine you
    will be far behind...I mean, what reason on earth would anyone want to
    live there????  Certainly can't be the football team.  
    
    	The Pack Man
    

================================================================================
Note 56.103                     Cleveland Browns                      103 of 103
STRATA::WHITEHAIR "Don't just sit there.......Do it" 18 lines  25-APR-1991 14:18
                            -< Put it in the book. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
  >    replaced.  The Browns will be formatible this year!
    
    	I guess that means they'll accept both RX23 and RX33 floppies?

    One GREAT reason to live in Pittsburgh is that you wouldn't have to
    live in Cleveland(Clevescum), the world's only inhabited raw sewage
    dump.
    
    
    JaKe
    

      10-13 wins,  are you spiking your coffee?  That is quite a difference
    compared to last year.  If your willing to make "off the record,
    NON-DEC involvement" bets, then you better put a more accurate win # in
    here.  10 to 13 is to wide.
    
      Why don't you just say 13 if your so confident about it?
    
    
        	Tim

    Clevescum Brownspots will again will be the Central cellar dwellers
    5 and 11 at best THE MIGHTY BENGALS will again rule the Central.The
    Pittsburg Squeelers will also have a bad season their problem is
    Bubblehead Brister a second rate Q Back
             
         TIGER TIGER BURNING BRIGHT WHO IS THE CENTRALS GUIDING LIGHT
                THE MIGHTY BENGALS OF COURSE

    Jesh, I'm getting sick!
    
    	Get yourself behind those curtains, will ya.
    
    	The Browns will surprise alot of people this year!  They will
    win at least 10 games and Bernie will be one of the top 5 quarterbacks.
    
    	WOOF!
    		Take it to the Dawg Pound!
    

    REPLY to 107
    
    My friends from Ayr.  I would hate to say this but, the Bengals are 
    in for a long year.  James Brooks is getting old and has taken a 
    beating over the years.  He has lost a step.  Ickwoods has gotten too 
    fat and slow.  Their offensive line is getting old and they don't have 
    alot of backup depth. So look out Boomer.  They also do not have a good
    backup for Boomer if he gets hurt.  With all of this I think the
    Bengals will be a good team, but they will not win the Central. 
    
    I think the team to beat this year is the Steelers.  The Steelers are
    young enough, and if they had a real NFL level QB they could be really 
    good team.  Until Bubby learns to read the play book they can be beat.
    
    The Browns will be better (how can they not be?) but they have a ways
    to go with the offensive line and their defense was very weak against
    the run last season.  But since I am a BROWNS fan I have to believe
    they will win the Central.  Last year was just a bad year and the
    special teams was the real problem with the team. 
    
                                                                          

    
    	THANK YOU!

    What's this?  An objective Browns fan?  The next thing you know, there
    will be an objective Carolina fan in here also.  What is this world
    coming to?!?
    
    Gotta disagree with you about the Steelers, however.  If the Oilers
    don't win this division for anything but lack of competition, something
    is way wrong.
    
    	--dan'l

    I would almost agree with you on the Oilers, except they are playing
    the run and shot.  Warren Moon is NOT getting any younger and, with the 
    run & shot a QB can take a beating at times.  Warren is go at the run & 
    shot but, at Warrens age, I don't think he will play ever game this
    season.  If the Oilers have to play a few big games with their backup
    QB I don't feel they will come out winners.  
    
    

      Maybe they will trade for one of the Lions' QBs?

    
    	Update.....
    
    	The Browns have signed three new player here in the last
    	couple of weeks...
    
    		QB from the Bengals....don't know his name 
    
    		TE from the Cardnals...dito..Roy Green?
    
    		WR from the world league...don't have a name
    
    	Does anyone have info or stats on this?
    
    
    	Hal

    The quarterbacks the Browns signed were Todd Philcox and Michael
    Proctor.  I believe they got WR Roy Green in a trade with the
    Cardinals.
    
    John

    Hal, thanks for the in-depth Browns update.
    
    Mark.

    
    	HA HA HA, Mark...
    
    		I know, I know.... I wish I had a better memory when it
    	comes to names.
    		I really don't think they will be no names though.
    
    		I know that Roy Green is a two time pro bowler and
    	the guy from the world football league is one of the best.
    
    		As far as the QB's go.......there is no one better than
    
    		B   E   R   N   I   E
    
    			K   O   S   A   R   !
    
    		What can you really expect from a Bengal back-up anyway?
    
    
    	More late breaking info when it comes . . . . . 
    
    
    		Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
    
    			Its ok Bones!
    
    				Down Boy!

    re Roy Green:
    
    The Browns did get him from Phoenix via a trade, sending a 1992 draft 
    pick in return (I think it was a 4th or 5th rounder).
    
    
    py

 Wide receiver Roy Green to the Browns ...
    
 And all the defensive backs in New York, Washington, Philadelphia, and
 Dallas just let out a huge collective sigh of relief ...
    
 Bob Hunt

    > ... all the DB's in New York, Washington .... just let out a huge
    > collective sign of relief ...
    
    Especially Dallas ... he OWNED the Cowboys ....
    
    'Course, the Oilers DB's are going to have some sleepless nights now...
    :-)
    
    

    I would feel better if the Browns would sign an All-Pro offensive
    lineman or two.  If that happened Bernie may have the time to see
    Roy Green run a pass route or two.  
    
    I don't understand what the front office of the Browns are thinking
    of.  They just do not seem to realize a team needs an offensive line.
    
    

      Hasn't Green been in the Leaque for 12 or so years?  Its seems he was
    in St. loius when I was a teenager in high school.
    
      Hopefully he don't "dress" like Bernie.....;^
    
    	Tim

    
    re -2
    
    	why do the Browns need a new offensive line???  If you would have
    read some of the notes prior to this one you would understand why they
    looked so bad last year and why this year will be quite different.

    re-1  
    
      We heard this last year HAL, and look what it did for 'em.
    
    	Tim

    Don't worry fellows, Cleveland will have the assistant coaches !
    
    12 assisstant coaches/ 5 offensive linemen = 2.4 coaches/OL
    
    So I figure if Cleveland signs 2 offensive coaches and a moron with an
    IQ of 40 (ie. Joe Walton), they'll get the OL they need.
    
    Right Hal ?
    
    Doc

    
    	As far as the OL goes.....the Browns fired Mad Rad and the
    original OL coach got his job back.  Remember, last year was
    a rebuilding year.  Thats why they had so many assistants.  This
    year will be quite different!
    
    	Hal

    Hal, 
    
    Never once last year did you call it a rebuilding year...especially
    before the season when it was "The Browns can't lose."  Now it was a
    rebuilding year.  Please.  What did they have to rebuild after doing so
    well in the '89 playoffs.
    
    The Browns had a bad year last year because:
    
    	- a few players they highly depended on either didn't play well
    	  or held out
    	- injuries
    	- Kosar had trouble under constant defensive pressure
    	- Art Modell
    
    That's enough to bring any good team down.  Don't compromise yourself
    by making that "rebuilding" year excuse.  If anything, this is your
    rebuilding year.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    re -1
    
    	No one likes to admit to rebuilding, but, thats really what
    happened.  The OL was getting old, but the Browns didn't expect
    them all to quit at the same time.  Clevelands line backers and
    corners are also old and ready for replacement.  Last year, they
    brought some new players in.  That along with resentment on the
    part of some defensive players, injuries and no protection was
    the reason for the Browns demise last year.
    	At any rate, the town of Pitts-turd will surely fall behind
    the Browns this year, as the years before.
    
    	Hm, I think that was a pattenable word....."Pitts-turd" - rust
    city of the US.  Which goes along with their QB....."Bubble Butt"
    HeHeHe, I used to call my ex the same thing.....  
    
    	Down Bones! Down!  
    
    		GRRRRRRRRRRRRR....

    How many OL did the Browns take in the draft, and in what rounds?
    
                                                                    
    py

    
    RE:  rebuilding.  If the Browns only have 1 rebuilding year
    that will be a lot better that the Pontiac Pussycats.  The Detroit
    Lions have been rebuilding since the early seventies.
    
    \pjb

    
    Won't say anything about the Lions.  The Browns didn't really go after
    much OL in the draft...they went for the defense.  
    They did get some people off of the free agent line though.
    

    The joke around town for years was that the Lions management - read
    owner Ford - didn't WANT a winning team.  You would have to pay the
    player more, and the fans show up whether the teams wins or loses. 
    Ford must think that since the NFL has a players union, he should
    treat his players like factory workers.
    
    Remember the year Eric Hipple won the QB starting job?  A telling point
    about the situation was the 2 QB behind Gary Danielson(?)  This was the
    same guy how lead the Lions to a 2-14 season a few years earlier when
    the Danielson went down for the season.  And the Lions hadn't had the
    brains to get rid of the stiff since!!!!
    
    Commander Scott, ex-Lions-fan-from-when-I-was-2-young-2-know-better.

    I saw my first football magazine that gave a review for the up 
    coming season.  As I expected the magazine indicated the Browns would 
    be dead last in the AFC Central.  This magazine liked Houston to take 
    the AFC central with the Bengals and Steelers being second and third 
    respectively.   
    
    The magazine indicated that the biggest problem facing the Browns is
    their offensive line.  They indicated that Paul Farren and Tony Jones
    are better suited for the guard position and not the tackles.  They
    indicated that the Browns have alot of good prospects for offensive
    guard but no offensive tackles.  
    
    The next biggest problem facing the Browns is yet another coaching
    staff change.  
    
    The last problem is the magazine indicated that the Browns did not 
    have a good draft.  The first three picks where OK, but the latter
    round picks where all poor and they did not see any of them making
    the team.
    
    I have to agree with most of what the magazine indicated except
    Houston to win the AFC Central.  I expect Warren Moon to get hurt 
    in games 3 to 7 and that will be the end of their season.  
    
    I expect the Browns to play .500 ball with Metcalf being a spot player.
    Hoard and Macker will give the Browns a power running game, which is
    what they will use until they can develope some offensive tackles that
    can pass protect.                          
    

    
    	In my 30 years I've never been around a coach who works as hard as
    Bill Belichick.  said owner Artodell, who bought the Browns in 1961. 
    I've never been around anyone as thorough.  He spent 16 hours
    interviewing his offensive line coach.
    	Belichick drove the Browns hard in the two minicamps he conducted
    in April and especially the one in June.  Training camp figures to be
    the toughest players on the current roster have ever experienced.
    	Yes, if the Browns don't win this year, no one can say it's because
    the coach neglected his job.
    
    	The News-Herald
    
    
    	WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO, BUT WE'RE HEADED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
    
    			Bill Belichick

    
    	Remember all those years when the cry was that the Browns need a
    burner?  They finally have one!
    	When the Browns traded a mid-round 1992 draft choice to the Phoenix
    Cardinals last month for Roy Green, they added a new dimension to their
    team - downfield speed.
    	"I think I bring big play capabilities to the Browns," Green said
    yesterday.  "I think I can assist the young guys maturing on the field. 
    You have to have been there."
    	Accorsi said:  It tells the players we want to win now.  That's
    something good for the veterans to know.
    	Green has posted numbers over his long career with St.
    Louis/Phoenix that would put him among the elite of the Browns'
    all-time receivers.  He has 522 career catches for 8,497 yards and 66
    touchdown passes.  Only Ozzie Newsome 662 had more career receptions,
    and only Gary Collins 70 had more touchdown catches.  No one who ever
    wore a Browns uniform had more yards receiving.
    

    Now, if the Browns would only hire one coach per every player, they'd
    be SURE to win!!!  :^{)
    
    Nelly

    
    	On the first full day of the Browns pre season camp, new head coach
    Bill Belichick stood just off the line of scrimmage when defensive
    tackle Rhondy Weston jumped offside in a scrimmage drill.  
    	Belichick glared but said noting.
    	The two lines hunkered down to run the play again and Westion
    jumped offside a second time.
    	Belichick stared coldly at the offender and said only two words:
    "That's twice."
    	It was unnecessary for Belichick to shout.  So far no one shouts at
    this camp.  Players watch and listen but don't talk, not even to one
    another.  If the jokes didn't stop when the Browns went 3-13 last year,
    they certainly did when Belichick signed on.  
    	A man of few words, Belichick has re-introduced a regimentation to
    this franchise that hasn't been seen since Paul Brown ruled with
    methodical precision.
    	"We're much more organized," observed veteran cornerback Raymond
    Clayborn, who is in his 15th training camp.
    	Lakeland has become a basic training site.
    	"It's a return to fundamentals teaching," said Clay Matthews, who
    is in his 14th Browns camp.
    	No one is complaining, however.  After last season's 3-13 debacle,
    everyone was ready to return to the basics.
    	"If your sound fundamentally, you'll at least be good," added
    Matthews.
    	"This has been an enlightening experience, there's a lot of
    teaching going on.  Belichick has blended together a good staff - some
    coaches with pro experience and others from college.:  said Dennis
    Marcin, the defensive line coach at Illinois who has visited six NFL
    training camps over the last three years.
    	"Not every team is into teaching, but the good ones are." said John
    Matsko, the offensive line coach at Southern Cal.
    	"The most impressive thing is the offensive line," said Matsko, who
    played his high school ball at Mentor in the late 1960s.  "Hal Hunter
    is doing a great job teaching the rookies as well as the veterans." 
    	To say the offensive line was a problem area in 1990 is the
    understatement of the year.  Hunter coached that position in 1989 but
    last year was reassigned when Bud Carson put his old pal Dan Radakovich
    in charge.  What the Browns offensive linemen must do first is forget
    the radical theories introduced by Mad Rad, who is notorious in the
    coaching profession for his radical thinking.
    	"Youre never too old to lean.  All it can do is make you better,"
    said Matthews.
    	So far, that is the direction of Belichick's first camp.  It's the
    right direction.
    
    

>    So far no one shouts at
>    this camp.  Players watch and listen but don't talk, not even to one
>    another.  
    
    They've been doing this Paul Brown style in Pittsburgh for almost 30
    years now.  Maybe the Browns will finally be as successful...nah,
    Modell is still in charge.
    
>    	"It's a return to fundamentals teaching," said Clay Matthews, who
>    is in his 14th Browns camp.
    
    Too bad they had to "return" when they were already there with Marty
    Schottenheimer.  Chalk another one up to ol' Art.
    
    >    	"Youre never too old to lean. " 
    					^^^^  
    Now that's probably the most accurate prediction I've heard to date of
    the Browns' upcoming season.
    
    And speaking of predictions, Hal, we're not forgetting your "at least
    10-6" rantings of a few months back.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    	Of the 16 offensive linement on the Browns' roster, the following
    five are either out of action or injured:
    
    	G/T Paul Farren		Broken toe on right foot, out two weeks.
    
    	G/C Gregg Rakoczy	Holding out, no progress in talks.
    
    	T   Ken Reeves		Pulled leg muscle, action limited
    	
    	T   Ben Jefferson	Out with strained neck, wearing neckbrace.
    
    	T   Geo. Hawthorne	Broken right hand.
    
    	Rakoczy is holding out for a better offer and is unlikely to get
    one.
    	"We'll go with what we've got," Belichick said.
    	Ed King, the Browns 2nd pick in the draft, signed a four-year
    deal worth an estimated $525,000 a year.  King who will be challenged
    at right guard by Dan Fike, said he wasn't counting on starting right
    away.

================================================================================
Note 56.134                     Cleveland Browns                      134 of 139
ROULET::WHITEHAIR "Don't just sit there.......Do it" 17 lines  23-JUL-1991 09:50
                           -< A little on the coach >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    	In my 30 years I've never been around a coach who works as hard as
    Bill Belichick.  said owner Artodell, who bought the Browns in 1961. 
                                ^^^^^^^^
    
    Artodell??  Is that the Artodell of Artodell and the Dells?  The guy
    who sang Tighten Up?  Wow, I didn't know they were into footbal.
    

    
    The Cleveland Browns continue to dominate the NY Giants.  What has it
    been now.....5 yrs since the Giants have beaten the Browns?  
    
    The Browns win with some great running by Morris.  The offensive line
    did a good job too.  No sacks!  No late hits!  Bernie was supurb.  He
    was even making calls on the line.  Bernie had a 44 yd completion to
    Michael Jackson (no glove) which was just right on the hands.  Couldn't
    have been better.  Michael Jackson made some great catches in the game.
    He also had a 48 yd reception in the second half.  Michael, being a 
    rookie this year will be first string.  
    
    On the defensive side...Clay Mathews played great!  He was all over the
    field.  First round draft pick Eric Turner played a great game too.
    
    	The Browns only winning 6 games this year???  No I don't think so!
    
    	Watch out!
    
    		WOOF!
    

>    The Cleveland Browns continue to dominate the NY Giants.  What has it
>    been now.....5 yrs since the Giants have beaten the Browns?  
    
It's not like this is any phenomenal statistic or anything.

How often do the Giants play the Browns?  They'll play them this season
during the regular season, I believe, and before that it was 1988.

Playing a team twice in 5 years hardly makes it worth putting that way.

Preseason doesn't count for much.


As a Giant fan, I'm not all that impressed with this new coach, and I
think this year isn't gonna be that great for them, but preseason means
very little...


'Saw

    ...and I just loved Bernie's new skirt and pumps!!
    

    Saw,
    
    		Ok, then it must be much longer that the previous 5yr 
    domination....I should say, what 8 or 11 yr domination.  The Giants
    can't beat the Browns in regular or preseason.  
    		You can't tell me that the Giants didn't want to win the
    game Saturday!  Everyone wants to win!  I guess if the Browns lost, I
    would have said the same thing.  It doesn't hurt so bad, does it?
    
    	Mr. Reed,
    
    		Laugh all you want now, but, I'll be the one laughing
    at the end of the season!  With this new offense the Browns have,
    Lots of run, run, run, then pass...Bernie will show his stuff!  They
    say Bernie is playing better this year than he has ever played before.
    No sacks, No knock downs, No late hits...what did Bernie do Saturday?
    He went 6 for 7, a 44 yd hit that no one could have thrown better and
    a 10 - 3 lead at the half!
    
    On a lots better note...the Browns actually made a field goal and
    punted the ball without it being blocked.  On the down side, late
    in the game, the extra point was missed...can't say for sure why, 
    looked as though the ball wasn't set.  Anyone else get a better look?
    
    	WOOF!
    

I'm not saying they didn't want to win.  I'm saying that preseason isn't the
time that you go out to leave your first string in to win a game.

You want to see your players in different situations and evaluate them
and things you wanna try during the season.  Winning is secondary to that.

I used to dread the years the Giants went undefeated in preseason because
they always had a shitty year that year.....

'Saw

    Preseason means absolutely nothing as far was what will happen in the
    regular season, either for a team's overall record or if they'll play
    each other again.  Wins and losses are not the point.
    
    Tomorrow, you will have a list of the Giants - Browns series, at least
    as much as I have time to put in.
    
    John

>>    have been better.  Michael Jackson made some great catches in the game.
>>    He also had a 48 yd reception in the second half.  Michael, being a 
>>    rookie this year will be first string.  
  
    Yeah, but his monkey may not make the team!!
      
    >>	The Browns only winning 6 games this year???  No I don't think so!
    
    >>	Watch out!
    
    >>		WOOF!
    
      I agree, 6 is too many wins for the Brown(spot)s(tm), 4 is more like
    it.
     
    >>		Laugh all you want now, but, I'll be the one laughing
    >>at the end of the season!  
    
    If it's anything like lasted year, you won't even be here by the 4th
    game of the season, 'cause the "spots will be out of it by then.
    
    
    >>With this new offense the Browns have, Lots of run, run, run, then 
    >>pass...Bernie will show his stuff!
                                                                 
    Yeah, expecially with those new crotchless panties Kevin Mack gave him
    for Christmas.
    
    
    JaKe
     

Who cares whether the Giants have beaten the Browns in the past
five years!  During the past five years, the Giants have won two
Super Bowls, while the Browns, at their best, have merely managed
to compete with Denver for choke-of-the-year honors.

    
    Oh Jake,
    
    	You are one of a kind!  Have the Squeelers gotten a new quarterback
    yet?  
    	At least Bernie doesn't have to have MaMa at every game.  I get
    sick of seeing her flinch!  
    	Yep the Squeelers will certainly be surprised when they play the
    Browns this year.  
    
    	John,
    		That will be interesting to see...all I can remember is the
    Browns beating up on the Giants.  I honestly can't remember the Browns
    loosing to them.  I can only remember them getting beat late in the
    game by a field goal the last two times they played.  They were both 
    good games though.
    
    	Saw,
    		It's funny that you say second string....did LT even have
    a tackel in the game?  I think the game was pretty evenly matched,
    except for QB's.  Bernie only played the first half but, the Giants had
    both Sims and Hostedler in for practically the whole game.  The guy on
    the Giants that got beat twice...long...was no rookie.  Roy Green even
    made a big play against him.  His name was Collins or something like
    that.  I'd say, by what I saw, the Giants are the team that have a long
    way to go!  
    
    		If the Browns can come into every game this year with the
    intensity they had Saturday, they will be big winners this year.
    
    	WOOF!
    

    Hal
    
    Word at the beginning of Steeler camp was that the Bubster was
    pencilled in as starting QB for the season.  Well, if Neil O'Donnell
    keeps playing the way he has in the first 2 not-for-real games, Emperor
    Noll will have to turn the pencil upside down and use the eraser so's
    he can put Neil's name in.
    
    >>	Yep the Squeelers will certainly be surprised when they play the
    >>Browns this year.  
    
    Why, is Bernice going to wear his new pink chiffon dress with his
    purple pumps????????
    
    JaKe
    

>    I'd say, by what I saw, the Giants are the team that have a long
>    way to go!  
    
Hal, no offense, but here's the way I see it.

Every year you're in here woofing around, laquering your woodie, and
telling us how great the Browns are gonna be.  By halfway through the
season, the Browns are wallowing helplessly in third or fourth place *or* are
still odds-on favorites to choke on the DeanSmith Chicken Bone in a 
division that my dead grandmother, Tony Easyon, and Kelly Stauffer could
win wearing sandals and a loin cloth, and finish fourth.

When that happens, we don't hear any woofing, and Hal's mysteriously
taken a powder....

With a track record like that you say the Giants have a long way to go.



On the other hand, earlier this morning, I, a true blue Giants fan from
way back, give a fairly objective view of where I see the Giants are.

Who do you think the Sports Noters are gonna listen too?

    re the last several:
    
    Didn't either the Giants or 49ers (or both) go 0-4 in the preseason
    before one of their recent Super Bowl championship seasons?
    
    
    py

I think the 49ers may have.  I don't remember with the Giants.

Actually, I pay little attention to preseason.

In fact, my interest in football has waned in the past few seasons.
I used to watch as many games as I could on a Sunday.  Now I watch the
Giants and that's usually it.

hth,
'Saw

    
    When John H. prints all the scores from past Browns/Giants games,
    you'll see who has the edge.  The Giants just can't beat the Browns!
    
    I'm objective alright, untill I'm proven wrong, I'll go with the 
    information I have and support it.
    
    I'm sorry to say, I don't agree with the prediction that the Browns
    will only win 6 games this season.  I see them going 500 at the least,
    and winning at least 10 at best.
    
    Don't be surprised!
    
    	Grrrrrrr!
    
    		Down Bonz.......
    

    Although not necessarily SPORTS related.....in response to the question
    'Saw posed a few back.....
    
    
    *I* give far more credence (sp?) to 'Saw's opinions and points of view
    than the Woof-man.
    
    And Hal......I beg to differ with your assertion that you're 'objective
    alright"!!!
    
    
    I'm neither a Giants fan nor a Browns fan......I am, however, a BIG fan
    of the NFL.....and in MY humble, OBJECTIVE opinion, any suggestion (be
    it stated or implied) that the Giants have a ways to go while the
    Browns are already (or almost) there is ludicrous at best!!
    
    IMHO, the Giants are superior to the Browns at:
    
    QB, RB, OL, TE (Believe it or not, Cross and Mowatt are a step above
    Charles Arbuckle and John Talley), DL, LB, DB, P & K.
    
    Please note, Hal, that I did leave the door open that the Browns may be
    competitive with the Giants at WR!!!
    
    

    Respectfully,
    
    Nelly

      Hal,  quite your yipping.  Didn't the Browns lose the weekend before? 
    They win 1 pre-season game,  and all of a sudden they are going to be
    the team of 91.  Yeh I know you didn't say this,  but I thought I would
    stop you before you did.
    
      The brownies play the jints on Sep.22nd in new jersey.  Be prepared
    to eat crow then.  I'm no browns or jints fan,   but the jints have
    more of a team than the spots.  "D"
    
        Tim 

    The Browns lost to Tampa Bay the week before 20-10? at Cleveland.
    
    But as you know we did not hear about that game only hear about the
    wins.
    
    Mike
    

    
    >>But as you know we did not hear about that game only hear about the
    >>wins.
    
    Precisely the reason that Hal only put in 3 or 4 replies all of lasted
    season, in here.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    re -1
    
    But one of those 3 or 4 replies was fantastic, remember the Chiefs game
    when the Browns got smoked and Hal did his could of, should of won
    replay.  I hope we have a few of those this year it was a great way to
    start a Monday.
    
    Mike
    

    
    Ok, maybe I'm getting down on the Giants.....someone told me yesterday
    that the Giants won the Super Bowl last year.  I didn't know that.
    
    Congrats to the Giants and their fans...allthough I don't really think
    they really deserved it.  
    
    I'm just saying that the Giants have a hard time with the Browns.  The
    Browns have the Giants number.  Where are those scores?  That will be
    my prof.
    
    Now for the Tampa Bay game.....I didn't get to see that game but did
    (just yesterday) read a few articals on the game.  From the newspaper
    reports...the Browns didn't play 13 veterans in that game.  A 51 yard
    pass from Bernie to Michael (no glove) Jackson was called back because
    the other wide receivers weren't in the correct stance.  Ed Turner
    still play a great game.  The first game was for the rookies.  Still,
    it would have been nice to win.  The Browns lost but I really would
    have liked to see them win.
    
    	WOOF!
    

>    
>    Congrats to the Giants and their fans...allthough I don't really think
>    they really deserved it.  
    
Why not?

They played well for the first three-fourths of the season.  While your
Browns were wallowing around in the cellar of the girly-mon AFC Central
(where they're all such gentlemen:  "I don't want first, you take it, no
you take it, no you take it) the Giants were off to the best start
in their history, 10-0.

They had a lag in the middle, and finished up the season 12-4.  Not as
good as their 1986 season, but they played better overall.


They beat the Bears, and then went on and beat the 49ers in as good a
game as I've seen in a long time.


They played well against the Bills, and stopped the Bills final drive
just far enough out to prevent Norwood from making the kick.  I won't
say that the Giants dominated the Bills, but it was one of the most
exciting Super Bowls in 5 years.


They don't have a flashy, brilliant offense, but one that's suited to
where they play and the climate they play in.  (To yank Dan's chain,
the Jets have all-world WRs, but their offense sucks so bad they're
perenially in the cellar 8^))  But, in the late season when Hoss took
the helm, the WR came into play more and did the job well.


The Giants won the Super Bowl because they outplayed everyone else, and
in the Bowl itself, didn't ever give up.

Sounds to me as if they deserved it.....    

Oh, and btw,

I'm not disputing that the Browns may have a better record against the
Giants, although I have a feeling that some of the older results will
balance out the recent tough performances.

But, I'll say that the Browns have never won a Super Bowl, have never
won an AFC Championship to *go* to the Super Bowl, and play in a 
division with much less competition than has existed in the NFC East.

Therefore, while the Browns may play well against the Giants, it really
makes no difference in the overall scheme of things....

'Saw

    The Browns do lead the series over the Giants, 26-16-2, with a 985-792
    advantage in points.  This includes a 1-1 record in playoff games to
    determine the championship of the Eastern Division - the Browns won 8-3
    in 1950 and the Giants won 10-0 in 1958.  In 1958, the Giants beat the
    Browns twice in 2 weeks in Yankee Stadium - first, a 13-10 win on the
    last day of the regular season (when Pat Summerall hit a long field
    goal in a snowstorm as time expired to put the Giants into a tie) and
    then the playoff game the next week to put the Giants into the title
    game against the Colts.
    
    So Hal, you're right, the Browns do lead the series.  And the Browns
    have also won the last 6 or so games over the Giants.  But, since the merger
    in 1969 (and up until that year they played each other at least twice
    from 1950 to 1969 except for once in 1968 and had played each other
    thrice in 1950 and 1958), the Giants and Browns have played each other
    3 times.  That's right, 3 times:  1973 (12-10 Cleveland), 1977 (21-7
    Cleveland) and 1985 (35-33 Cleveland).
    
    So if you want to call it domination in a series where 2 teams play
    each other an average of every 7 years, in recent history, be my guest.
    My opinion (and I'm neither a fan nor a hater of either team) is that
    in a series that's played that seldom, a streak like that is merely 
    random chance.  I will agree with you that the Browns did have an edge
    over the Giants for the first 20 years of the rivalry (though I'd
    hardly call 23-16-2 domination) but the last 21 years don't have enough
    "events" to prove anything, and with the last time they've played being
    in 1985, that's ancient history in the NFL.
    
    John

Thanks John.

I knew they hadn't played much lately.

And as I said, the series record doesn't prove much either.  When the
Browns are wearing two Superbowl rings, and have a couple of NFL championships
to add to the score, then I'll retract all I've said so far....


'Saw

    
    Enough Hal..  Let it rest...  I don't believe the Browns are anywhere 
    near the Giants in terms of talent AT THIS TIME.   The Gints were
    playing without something like 6 starters (mostly stars?)..  Besides
    as everyone keeps saying it's only pre-season.   
    
    Personally, though, I thought the Browns played an inspired game. 
    Seeing as Perry (holdout) and Mack (injury) didn't play I'm even more
    impressed with the effort.  The O-line did a nice job, however, I 
    wasn't very impressed with the D-line (Perry's presence is missed),
    seemed like they were getting blown off the ball too often.
    
    As far as this talk of the AFC Central being a weak division.. this 
    argument doesn't hold.  It's been a balanced division throughout the 
    80's, hence, the lack of a dominant team.  One thing it hasn't had
    however, is a patsie..  ala Dallas and Phoenix of the mid-to-late 80's.
    It's easy to have a nice record when you have 4 byes every year.   
    
    I don't want to go down a rathole, but I don't think AFC Central bashing 
    is called for.
    
    /Jeff    

>    Personally, though, I thought the Browns played an inspired game. 

Especially so considering it was Belichick on the sidelines! 8^)

>    As far as this talk of the AFC Central being a weak division.. this 
>    argument doesn't hold.  It's been a balanced division throughout the 
>    80's, hence, the lack of a dominant team.  One thing it hasn't had
>    however, is a patsie..  ala Dallas and Phoenix of the mid-to-late 80's.
>    It's easy to have a nice record when you have 4 byes every year.   

If you look at the records, and perhaps excepting Dallas in JJ's first
season, they're not 4 byes.  Those teams have functioned as spoilers
more often than not.  Phoenix always plays NY tough, and Dallas, well
let's just say the Giant's suffering is legendary.....

>    I don't want to go down a rathole, but I don't think AFC Central bashing 
>    is called for.

Wasn't really bashing, but I just think that lately the AFC has been
a weaker conference, and I don't think that some of the teams in the 
Central would make the playoffs if they were in other divisions....

(Course nowadays, if you breathe you make the playoff with these new
schemes....)


'Saw

    
    Thanks John,
    		Although I don't agree with your opinion, your intitled to
    it.  Same with you Saw.  Oh, I don't want to forget about Jake either.
    		Oh and by the way, I didn't get out of the conference last
    year because the Browns were loosing.....it was because of the bashing
    I was taking from my own Cleveland fans.  I can take the bashing from
    outsiders, and I know I have to sometimes get back to reality...but,
    last year was uncalled for.
    
    		GO BROWNS!
    

    
>Wasn't really bashing, but I just think that lately the AFC has been
>a weaker conference 
    Sorry 'Saw, I can't buy this one..  The AFC is actually pretty
    comparable to the NFC when you look at inter-conference play results.  
    The only thing the AFC has lacked over the last 10 years is a dominant
    team like the  Bears, 49'ers or Giants in each ones Super Bowl year. .
    
>            and I don't think that some of the teams in the 
>     Central would make the playoffs if they were in other divisions....

    Again, I can't agree.  The Central placed 3 teams in the playoffs twice 
    in the last (?)5 years.   Since the Central is only a 4 team division,
    the majority of games played by teams in the Central is out of 
    the division (10 to be exact).   Since the Central teams have been 
    consistently making the playoffs while playing 10 games outside of 
    their division, I don't think you can make the statement that it was/is
    the weak sister division of the AFC.  In fact, I would claim just the
    opposite.   
    
    Now, of course, things have changed over the last 2 years, with the 
    emergence of Buffalo (long time coming, wasn't it!), Miami, LA and KC 
    you may have a case this year.  However, I'm not betting against 
    Houston, Cincy or Cleveland just yet ..  
    
    /Jeff

    re.167
    
    Somebody up there in Mass. wanna call Hal a violinist.....sniff
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
>    		Oh and by the way, I didn't get out of the conference last
>    year because the Browns were loosing.....it was because of the bashing
>    I was taking from my own Cleveland fans. 
    
    Hal, I'll try to take it easy on you this year.   I know these guys 
    want you around for the long haul..  
    
    /Jeff   ;-)

    Wins in 1973, 1977 and 1985 recent domination?  How can you possibly
    say that?
    
    John

    Hal -
    
    Saying that wins in 73, 77, and 85 are recent domination is like saying
    having sex on New Year's Day, Memorial Day, and Columbus Day is being
    oversexed!
    
    You gotsa be kidding!
    
    And in the so-called 'domination', two of the dominant wins were by 2
    points!
    
    JD

    
    	Thanks Jeff!  I'll have to have you out to the house to catch a
    game from the dish.
    
    	John,
    		Listen, if you had 4 years (73-77), then 8 years (77-85)
    and another 6 years (85-91) to figure out how to beat a certain team
    and you can't.....I call it domination.  For some reason, the Giants
    just can't beat the Browns (in recent history).  I'd still bet the
    Browns to win in week 4.
    
    	On a more serious note...just a clip from the News Hearld...
    
    		IS JACKSON A SIXTH-ROUND STEAL?
    
    	How the last Browns' draft is graded - fine, fair or "How can they
    pick these guys?" - will depend on safety Eric Turner, guard Ed King
    and defensive tackle James Jones.
    	They were the top choices and with them a team expects quality.
    	If they do well, it won't matter whether the Browns stuck in a
    thumb and pulled out a plum with Michael Jackson in the sixth round.
    	Still, you figure Jackson is the one fans want to see during the
    preseason that will open against Tampa Bay at the Stadium on Monday
    night.  He's the one they've been hearing about, the phenom of this
    training camp.
    	His virtuoso number is catching a football, always a conspicuous
    act.  So far, we keep hearing, there's been a lot of action involving
    Jackson, with his running past veteran defensive backs to catch balls
    thrown deep.
    	Turner is the No.1 pick and fans occasionally will notice him if he
    intercepts a pass or makes a tackle inclined to loosen teeth.  But
    because a fan can't know what a safety is supposed to be doing most of
    the time, he can'tjudge how well he's doing it.
    	As for King, drafted in the second round, he will share the
    anonymity of offensive linemen, drawing attention only when offside. 
    Even his loved ones won't always notice when he's on the field.  And
    Jones, drafted third, he will be inclined to blend into the bodies
    unless he does an imitation of Michael Dean Perry.
    	But Jackson has been impressing people such as cornerback Raymond
    Clayborn, which must impress us.  Clayborn has been playing long enough
    to have covered almost everybody since Don Hutson.
    	In fact, the notices have been so glowing that a question is
    inevitably posed.
    	Is there some flaw not yet recognized in this guy?
    	Why, it must be asked, were 140 players drafted before he was?  Did
    other teams know something the Browns still don't?
    	This is not an athlete a scout would overlook.  How many wide
    receivers were there in the last draft, in fact in any draft, who stand
    six feet, four inches and reputedly run 40 yards in 4.3 seconds?  Plus
    that, he played at southern Mississippi, which isn't Southern Cal in
    turning out pros but also ins't Slippery Rock.  Scouts know where to
    find it.
    	While his college career wasn't sensational, it wasn't bad.  He
    caught 25 passes as a senior, one for a 73 yard touchdown.
    	What we've been hearing about Jackson sometimes seems too good to
    be true - and may turn out to be.  Many rookie phenoms from early weeks
    of training camp, when reporters find few solid things to write about,
    come to a dead stop when the games start and shortly disappear forever,
    departures noted in a sentence or two. 
    	Can Jackson catch the ball over the middle?  And if he can, will
    his lean body absorb the shock of collisions?  Can he get off the line
    of scrimmage, often a problem for a receiver of his height who may lack
    the quick feet of the shorter man?
    	These are legitimate questions.  But they don't preclude positive
    answers.  Rookies recently drafted in the middle rounds, occasionally
    even in the late rounds, will go on to become stars while some
    first-round picks fail.  Despite all the money spent, despite the
    exhaustive search and appraisal, drafting football players remains more
    of a gamble than a science.
    	Ballcarriers who'll lead the league in rushing will continue to be
    drafted as low as Leroy Kelly, taken in the eighth round by the Browns
    in 1964.  Players who will become team leaders, dynamic forces, will be
    taken in the 10th round, as was Earnest Byner, the Browns being smart
    enough to draft him in 1984 but not smart enough to keep him.  The next
    year the Browns claimed Reggie Langhorne, a quality receiver, in the
    seventh round.
    	Every pro football team has stories like that to tell.  Not a lot
    of them, but some.
    	It's a reflection of how styles have changed that Jackson's height
    is not regarded as an unchallenged asset.  In an earlier age, every
    team wated receivers who were 6-4 or close to it.  As they usually were
    also long-armed, it increased greatly the area in which they could
    catch the ball.
    	Then came the emphasis on quickness, resulting in short receivers,
    and also shorter, quicker defenders.  Yet if they can get off the line
    and open, tall receivers, such as Jackson, today have an advantage
    catching the ball against short defenders.
    	To the question, "What's wrong with Jackson?"
    
    		The answer may be, "Nothing at all."
    
    
    

  >    Somebody up there in Mass. wanna call Hal a violinist.....sniff
    
       Hal, you're a violinist!
                              Denny

>    
>    	John,
>    		Listen, if you had 4 years (73-77), then 8 years (77-85)
>    and another 6 years (85-91) to figure out how to beat a certain team
>    and you can't.....I call it domination.  For some reason, the Giants
>    just can't beat the Browns (in recent history).  I'd still bet the
>    Browns to win in week 4.

Earth to Hal, Earth to Hal...


I'm still trying to get over the absolute absurdity of this statement.


Nah, never mind.....

    
    >>	John,
    >>		Listen, if you had 4 years (73-77), then 8 years (77-85)
    >>and another 6 years (85-91) to figure out how to beat a certain team
    >>and you can't.....I call it domination.  For some reason, the Giants
    >>just can't beat the Browns (in recent history).
    
    I guess, using this logic, that IRAQ just would've needed to watch the
    films of WWII to find out what the Germans did wrong, then do the
    opposite to beat the USA, Eh Hal!!!!
    
    BTW, Anybody ever see Hal and Sr. Mary Elephan"T" in the same place at
    the same time??????????????????
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    	Ok, Ok, Ok,
    		Maybe domination isn't the best word....then, what do you
    call it when a team can't beat another for 18 years?  
    		I remember those games.  They were good ones, especially
    the one in 85.  The Giants came close, but no cigar!  The Giants were
    suposto be good that year, but, they couldn't beat the browns.
    		I really think the whole system stinks.  I think each team
    should play every team once (AFC/NFC), then take the top 5 teams and
    have a playoff with the winner in each conference play for the ring.
    
    
    		Now, the Browns play Washington this Friday.  This will be
    a big test for the Browns.  Washington is picked by most to go all the
    way.  The third game of the season is where you really expect to see
    the team that is expected to start the season, right?  The game is
    played in Washington at 7pm.  This game should be on the tube.  Should
    be a good one!  I'll take the Browns by 10.
    

>    		Maybe domination isn't the best word....then, what do you
>    call it when a team can't beat another for 18 years?  

If the teams have played each other twice a year for 18 years, and one has
won something like 25 times, then it's domination.  Kind of like ths Sowboys
used to do to the Giants.

If you've played the team three times in 18 years, you toss the word domination
out, and then you try to see if there's anything statistically remarkable
about this.  Newsflash:  there isn't.

In fact, in the scheme of things, they're pretty meaningless games.  The
most important games to a team are the 6 or 8 in its division.  Then
the games in its conference.  then the other ones.

I know the Giants made the playoffs in 1985, and lost miserabley to 
an steamroller of a Bears team.  What'd the Browns do in 1985, I don't
remember, but it was New England v Miami for the AFC Crown...

While I might be wrong, I think the game in 1985 was a last second affair
that the Giants let slip away.  The biggest difference between 1985 and 1986
when the Giants won the Superbowl, was that instead of losing those last
minute games, they won them, and have done pretty well at that
since.

My biggest memories of Cleveland are of Mr Ed ripping them apart in the
last minute or so, or of them fumbling away their chances.


If your arguments were an airplane, I'd be hitting the silk if I were you ;^)

    Hal,
    
    I would buy your statement if each team had the same players and same
    coaches over the period of time.  In Cleveland's case, they had either
    Nick Skorich or Blanton Collier in 1973, then Forrest Gregg in 1977,
    then Sam Rutigliano then Marty Schottenheimer in 1985 and after
    Schottenheimer and before Belichek, Bud Carson.  In the Giants case, it
    was probably Alex Webster in 1973, then perhaps someone else before
    John McVay in 1977, then Ray Perkins before Bill Parcells took over in
    1983 and now Ray Handley.  The most constant coach has been with the
    Giants - Ron Erhardt has been there from 1982 to the present and he's
    only had one chance at the Browns.  Going back to 1969, the coaches
    were Blanton Collier and Allie Sherman.
    
    No one player from either team has been there from 1973 until now and I
    highly doubt anyone from the 1973 teams played in 1985.  There may have
    been some overlap from 1973-77, from 1977-85 and from 1985 until now.
    
    There hasn't been much turnover in the ownership.  There's been some in
    the front offices, the equipment managers and medical staff as well. 
    These people don't win the games, though - the players and coaches do
    and it's hard to figure out how to beat a team when you only have one
    crack at them.
    
    As I said, I'm not a Giants fan and I don't particularly care who beats
    who in the rivalry.  I would give your statement a lot more validity if
    the Giants and Browns played each other even every 3 years, like the
    rotation would have them doing if the Giants hadn't finished last in
    their division in 1978, 1981 and 1987.  If the Browns and Giants had
    played each other even that often and the Browns were still winning all
    the games then I'd accept domination as a valid viewpoint.  I just
    can't with so few games over such a long period of time.
    
    John

    
    	The fact remains......
    
    		The Giants haven't beaten the Browns in over 18 years!
    
    And, in 85, I believe the Browns did make it to the playoffs, and
    unfortunately lost to the fish.  The Browns and Bernie (1st year)
    were comming back from one of their bad years, which there wern't
    many.  Thats why that football I got last year will be worth some
    cash some time.  There were many great names on it, including some
    that will become stars.
    
    	

    Using the same logic, Hal, if the Giants beat the Browns this year then
    not only is Cleveland's domination of the Giants over but the Giants
    would now dominate the Browns since they would have now been unable to
    beat the Giants in over 5 years.
    
    What's fair is fair.  
    
    John 

Hawk,

It's like isometrics.  The more you do it the stronger  you get. 

Far Eastern theory would dictate that ultimately you'll move through the
wall, rather than break it down....;^)

I mean, if it gives Hal a thigh shuddering hunk o' pleasure to say
"The Giants haven't beaten the Brown in 18 years", hey, no problem.

Because I can say "When was the last time the Brown won the Super Bowl?"


8^)

       Anyone remember Bill Murray in the movie 'Meatballs'?
    
    
    
       "It just doesn't matter!  It just doesn't matter!"  :-) :-)
    
       epoH sihT spleH
       	
    						 glen j.
    
    

    Hi,
    
     For those of you who don't know me my name is Kevin and I've been 
    reading sports notes for 2 days now. Hal, we know each other and 
    I've been reading the abuse you've been taken about the Browns. Seeing
    this is my first ever reply to the sports file I'll be brief. Hal knows
    I'm a big Giants fan. I get the Giants News Weekly and have Giant
    football cards on my bench. The dominance theory is a hard one to
    follow when the 2 teams play only 3 times in 18 years. Alright, that
    haven't won one of the 3. Was any of the 3 games that important to say
    the Giants needed to break out the history file on the Browns? I don't
    think so. Anyways, when they meet in week 4 we'll see. By the way, I
    see the Browns have picked up a new Head Coach and some plan B players.
    You might have heard of their names...Bill Belichick-Ex Giant Defensive 
    coordinator, Joe Morris-Ex Giant RB, Lee Rouson- Ex Giant RB, Matt
    Stover-Ex Giant Kicker, Greg Mark-Ex Giant LB....I'm no genuis but is 
    this a trend to try to make the Dominant Browns simulate the Superbowl
    Giants? Did we watch the game Saturday nite? What was the head coach 
    quoted when talking about Mr Kosar....."He reminds me alot of Phil
    Simms". Not the other way around. Like I said, I'm not the GM for the
    Browns but one does assume there is a method behind the madness!
    					Kevin

    
    Sorry John,
    		I did not start the domination thing from the last time the
    Browns lost to the giants, but, only after winning.  So, with that in
    mind, the Giants can only say they have dominated the Browns after
    winning at least two games in a row.  Also, I have also stated that
    maybe domination isn't the right word.  At first, I thought they had
    played more often.  For some reason, I remember the game in 73 very
    clearly.  It was a big game for the Browns.
    
    Kevin,
    
    		You can't tell me that anyone of those three games, the
    Giants didn't want to win weather anything was on the line or not.
    A win is money in the pocket.  Everyone wants it.
    
    	You Rookie!
    
    			Hal

    
    Kevin,  I think it's only natural for a coach who has spent a long time
    with a team to bring some of his players/coaches with him when he moves
    to a new position.  Plan B allows the movement of players, so why not 
    sign some talent he is familiar with.  More power to Belicheck if he 
    can make his system work in Cleveland - note though, it's not the 
    Giants system, it's Belichecks.    
                                      
    /Jeff

    
    Anyone out in Cleveland-land have information on any progress in 
    signing Michael Dean Perry.  I feel it's a must to have him signed,
    sealed and delivered by opening day.  
    
    /Jeff

      Hal,  Didn't the Broncos dominate the spots for either 11 games
    straight, or 11 years?  This was until last year during the infamous
    change ends of field move.
    
      Also,  the Broncos have beaten the spots in 3 AFC champeenship games.
    
      Do we call this domination?  I would say yes, but others may not.
    If anything, you might call it embarrasing or even mental breakdown,
    something like,  oh we won't win, 'cause we haven't beaten these guys
    for years now.
    
        Tim

    Hal,
    
      I'm not sure on the NFL contracts but I think they get paid win or
    loss. Extra comes when they make it to the playoffs and the Pro-Bowl.
    Everything said and done...I've got to admit I'm following the Browns 
    but this due to the Giants infuence. I think Mack is going to lose his
    job to Morris. Morris looked good and showed he still wants to play.
    With Belichick as Coach, It should help out his chances. If you didn't
    know this, They have moved Lee Rouson, A FB with the Gints, to TE and 
    has pretty good hands. Mike Jackson would not be that big of a
    surprise. Look at Johnny Johnson from Phoenix. Round 8 last year was
    when the Cards got him. The question is there O-line. They need help 
    there and I didn't see alot of help coming in. It will be tuff for them
    to come out of the bottom of the Central Division. We'll have to wait
    and see. Realisticly, I think .500 is where they will end up this year.
    		The Rookie

    Denver leads the series with Cleveland 12-4 including a perfect 3-0
    record in post-season play (1986, 1987 and 1989).  This doesn't include
    last year's game.
    
    The series began in 1970 and Cleveland won 3 of the first 4 games. 
    Denver then won 10 straight before the 1989 "move ends to kick" game in
    Cleveland which the Browns won 16-13.  Denver then won the 1989 playoff
    game.
    
    Total points, not counting last year, are Denver 394, Cleveland 265.
    
    John
    
    PS - to whoever brought it up - players are paid, win or lose.  Players
    do get bonuses for incentives and do get both playoff game and Pro Bowl
    money.  Contracts do not begin until the regular season begins, subject
    to required severance payments for veterans.  There are very few if any
    guaranteed contracts in the NFL so most players who get cut now receive
    nothing on their contracts.

    
    re: Mack vs. Morris..    
    
    Rookie, I tought Morris was a finess back, not a punishing full back 
    like Mack.  Mack will be with this team come the start of the season,
    you can bet on it.  Just hope he stays healthy this year.
    
    /Jeff

    
    .188
    
    	Jeff,
    
    		The Browns really haven't pressed to sign Perry this
    year.  They will sign him though.  Maybe just before the last
    preseason game.  The Browns did however sign Racozy the other 
    day which should improve the offensive line some.  
    		On the Perry issue, I've got this news clip on his
    new compliment.....JAMES JONES.
    
    			FILLING THE VOID
    
    		Rookie Jones compared to missing Perry
    
    			Cleveland Plain Dealer
    
    	Michael Dean Perry hasn't joined the Browns yet, but there may be a
    reasonable facsimile of the all-pro tackle at this training camp in
    rookie James Jones.  That's the belief of Frank Smouse, Cincinnati
    assistant personnel director, who expressed the opinion this week at
    the Bengals' training camp.
    	"I think the Browns got a duplicate of Perry in this Jones kid," 
    Smouse said.  "He has the same build as Perry."
    	"Also the quickness and the strength.  He's a powerful guy.  I
    could tell that when we worked him out.  I hope I'm wrong for our (the
    Bengals) sake, but I do feel he could be another Perry."
    	Jones, a third-round draft choice from Northern Iowa, is 6-2 and
    "down to almost 280" after three weeks at camp.  Perry is an inch
    shorter and about five pounds heavier. 
    	Jones, who most likely will start against Tampa Bay in the opening
    exhibition game tomorrow night at the Stadium along with other rookies
    Eric Turner at safety and guard Ed King, was more modest in his self
    appraisal.
    	"I guess I would be flattered if he told me that, but I know I have
    a long ways to go." he said this week after practice.  "I watch the
    training tapes and take notes on what I do wrong."
    	"I'll say this, My notes on mistakes are getting shorter and
    shorter every day.  But I'm not to the point where I should be."
    	Jones has not met Perry, who is holding out for more money than has
    been offered, but he has seen the tackle on tapes.
    	"He looks awesome in some of the things I've watched," he said. 
    "One thing I've noticed that he is so quick."
    	"He uses his reach to an advantage, too.  I know I'm going to learn
    by watching him."
    	Jones has been getting some work with the goal-line offense as a
    fullback.  It's a role that Perry's older brother,  William, had with
    the Chicago Bears a few years back.
    	"I expect that we'll try that in the preseason," Jones said.  "I'm
    either a blocker or a ball carrier.  I know this, I'll have to move
    people better than I've been doing."
    	Jones, a native of Davenport, Iowa, said he hadn't been told if he
    would start against the Bucs.  He has been working the past week with
    the first defensive line, however.
    	"Nobody has told me if I was starting," he said.  "I feel that the
    only important thing is to do well whenever I play.
    	"I have to do my job on the special teams, everywhere.  I'm still
    making some mistakes I shouldn't be making."
    	Jones signed his contract and came into camp on time.  He said this
    has been very beneficial.
    	"I felt it would be important to get here and not have to play
    catch-up," he explained.  "Now, I really realize how important it was."
    	Defensive line coach John Mitchell isn't making any prediction that
    the rookie will be another Perry.  However, he is generally pleased
    with Jones' showing so far.
    	"All I can say right now is that he's working hard, using his hands
    well," said Mitchell.  "He's competing for a job.  This is his first
    pro camp and it's a learning experience.  I've told them the cream will
    rise to the top."
    	Jones isn't the only rookie the Cincinnati scout fancies.  He likes
    the prospects of Turner, King and defensive lineman Pio Sagapolutele as
    well.
    	"I'm not just saying they'll make the squad," he explained.  "They
    will be players, guys who contribute."
    
    
    	Dirty Dawg Hal
    

     re: .190
    
    	Rookie,
    		Jeff is right about what he said about Mack and Morris.
    The plan as I know it is that both Mack and Morris will be in the 
    backfield at the same time with Metcalf being put in on certain
    plays.
    		Reguarding the Browns offensive line, I really don't 
    think the problem was the personnel but one with the line coach,
    Mad Rad.  No more televising a pass play.  The line will be going
    after the defense this year.  This along with a new running game
    will make the pass lots more effective.  Look for Bernie to have
    a GREAT year.
    
    	Dirty Dawg
    

    
    re: .189
    
    	Tim,
    
    		Oh gesh, thanks for bringing all that up!  Unfortunately,
    I even consider that 10 game streak, domination.  The Browns just
    couldn't stop Either Way...then the fumble.  It all adds up to losses.
    Not to make excuses, they were good games that could have went either
    way and many seasons, I still feel the Browns were the better team.
    
    	John,
    
    		Thanks for all those gut renching facts!  You made my day.
    
    	Reguarding the money issue...The statement I made was to imply
    that all games mean something to someone, when a player is up for
    a new contract, surely the games he's played in has an impact on
    what his new offer will be.  So, you can imply that those three
    games the Browns won over the Giants ment nothing, but I feel they
    did.  Certainly the papers ripped the Giants for them.  
    
    	Dirty dawg
    

    Why all the ex-Giants on the Browns?  Simple...the Giants are the team
    the Browns want to be when they grow up. :-)
    
    
    py

        Thanks for the info John...  Your a football encyclopedia....
    
    		Tim

    I'm not a football encyclopedia, I have a football encyclopedia.  I buy
    (or am given as part of my job) the Annual NFL Media Guide and Record
    Book every year, and all I do is look up the information in there.  The
    book is available in any bookstore with a decent-sized sport section
    every year and it's well worth the money.  I also get media guides from
    each team in the NFL.  I also get the Elias Baseball Analyst and other
    sports books every year and anyone who has been to my house can attest
    to the size of my library - both sports and non-sports related.
    
    If I kept all that information in my head, I'd definitely need to get a
    life.  Having the interest and being able to look it up means I only
    sort of have to get a life.
    
    John

    
>>>>        Thanks for the info John...  Your a football encyclopedia....
    
    		Tim


 Geez Tim how come you didn't thank John two weeks or so ago when he published
 the figures for the Raiders/Donkeys Series???

  ;^)

    
    	Giants/Browns game info
    
    
    	I just got some articals from home about the game last week....
    
    	I guess Bill was harrassed quite abit durring the practices by
    the Giants.  LT teased him and sat on his helmit which is a big no
    no in Bills camp.  LT told Bill to kiss his butt.  Nice guy huh?
    Bill took it all in stride and proved who was the best...on the field.
    The World Champion Giants go down in defeat to the 3 - 13 Cleveland
    Browns.  
    
    	Other reports are that Perry is ready to hold out through the
    season.  His agent believes he should be the highest paid lineman
    in the NFL.  LT makes 2.2 M.  The Cleveland offer is 1..1 M.  Another
    clip says that Perry *will* sign before the season starts.
    
    	The report on Metcalf and Hoard, who each suffered injuries, back
    to back in the Giants game, is that both only had brused knees and 
    will most likely play tonight.
    
    	Does anyone have the TV list for tonight on them?  Will the game
    be telivised?
    
    	Dirty Dawg
    
    	Tim, you are the one who should get a life!
    

>    	I guess Bill was harrassed quite abit durring the practices by
>    the Giants.  LT teased him and sat on his helmit which is a big no
>    no in Bills camp.  LT told Bill to kiss his butt.  Nice guy huh?
>    Bill took it all in stride and proved who was the best...on the field.
>    The World Champion Giants go down in defeat to the 3 - 13 Cleveland
>    Browns.  


Hal, your woodie about the meaningless preseason victory is really starting
to show.  You should get some lacquer quick....

Of course the Giants are gonna get on Belichick's case.  That happens
all the time in Sports.

And the last time I looked, the game proved nothing.  The Giants are still
World Champs, and the Browns are a team in dire need of the kind of direction
that Belichick can give them.

'Saw

    Hello Dirty Dog just two weeks to go until blastoff,can,t wait for
    the first Cleavscum Bengals game,the TIGERS will maul the Brownspots
    yet again.Talking about domination the mighty Bengals have won the
    last five games against Bernie,s boneheads now thats domination.
    
    WOOF WOOF WHIMPER WHIMPER

    
    	ATHOMSON,
    		thats a hard one to swallow.  Are sure about the last five?
    	I don't think so.  Everything I read seem to say that the Bengals 
    	are real worried about the Browns this year.  They, for one, know
    	what to expect when the Dawgs come to town.  
    		The latest talk in town is that no one is really expecting
    	the Browns to win the whole thing this year (but possible), next
    	year will again be the year of the Dawgs.  I am hoping that this
    	will be the surprise year.
    
    		Sick that guy Bones!
    
    				GRRRRRRRR!
    
    	Dirty Dawg
    

    re 201
    
    Hal
    
    Do you think that LT meant what he said the Bill B? From all that I
    have read the Giants have the utmost repect for Bill B. They are very
    happy that he has the chance to be a head coach. 
    
    Tell please how Bill B showed LT that he is the best or are you
    implying that the Browns have a linebacker better then LT?
    
    Mike

    In a recent poll of NFL players, the majority said the Raiders had the
    best uniforms.  The team that got voted the ugliest/worst uniforms, of
    course, were the pumpkin head Brownspots.
    
    	--dan'l

    Again, I'll have to look it up when I get home.  I do know that before
    last season, the Cleveland - Cincinnati series stood 20-19 for the
    Bengals but I don't know how many in a row anybody had won.  If the
    Bengals won both the games last year (which I suspect they did) then
    the series would stand 22-19 with the Bengals winning at least 2
    straight.  I would say that this series has never been dominated by
    either team and would also guess that there have been very few if any
    long winning streaks during its course.
    
    When I post these things I'm strictly neutral.  I don't have any
    dislike for any team in the NFL anymore because I've gotten to know
    people from just about every team and with maybe one or two exceptions,
    I like everyone I've met.  When you have a job to do, there isn't time
    for animosity.  I've trained myself to be as neutral and objective as
    possible because when I'm working a game, I want to make sure I give
    every team a fair call, and I think I do.  I hope that attitude extends
    to these factual entries I post here.
    
    John

    re .207:
    
    Bengals won both games against the Browns last year, 34-13 at Cleveland
    and 21-14 in Cincinnati.
    
    
    py

    
>    Bengals won both games against the Browns last year, 34-13 at Cleveland
>    and 21-14 in Cincinnati.
    
 
 Will the Browns ever score 20 points in a single game again? that is the
 question....

 oh yeah Hal stop by the office sometime and I'll show the picture I have
 of Bernice cutting Big Bad Bubby's lawn...

    
    	The Browns may have one of the most plain uniform in the league
    but probibly one of the best records in the league.  There performance
    speaks for itself.  Just don't include last year.
    	
    	Thanks John, I'd like to see the head to head with Cincy.  
    
    	Guys, don't beleive a word John says about the Browns either,
    he told me last week at a softball game that he has liked the 
    Browns ever since the begining of time.  
    
    	Come on Mike, Bernie Kosar, the 1991 King of the QB's to be, 
    cutting Bubble Butt Baby Bone Back Bother Bucker Buster Brown's
    grass.....It must be a double immage shot.  The day Bernie Kosar
    would cut his grass would be the day *you* would actually also
    admit to the whole group of us here that you really don't think
    the Giants desirve to be considered the World Champions.  
    
    	Dirty Dawg

    
    
    I'd hasten to agree that the Ben-Gals, Girly as they are, have beaten 
    the Browns 5 straight...   That's part of the reason Bud got Axed..  
    See Art, after firing the late great Paul Brown, couldn't stand to loose
    to him, while, Paul Brown, loved to beat his original team.  That and
    the fact that the 2 teams share the same state makes (made) for a great
    rivalry.  Bud lost all 4 games he faced the Bengals, hence the Axe..  
    Face it, Art can suffer through a lousy season, but he couldn't sit
    back and loose to Paul Browns team.  It'll be interesting to see if the
    rivalry calms  down a little (at least for Art) now that Brown is
    watching from upstairs.  
    
    /Jeff

    
    The latest on Bud....The Browns are not going to honer his contract.
    Why, because of his BIG mouth.  He just lost himself something like
    100,000.00 big ones.  
    
    I've got a picture at my desk....it has Art with a frown on his face,
    in large letters,  THIS BUD IS NOT FOR BROWNS!
    
    I really didn't reallize that the Browns have lost 5 straight times
    to them.......thats terible.  Things will be different this year.
    
    	Dirty Dawg
    

    This has been an extremely even series with the record standing at
    Cincinnati 22 wins, Cleveland 19 wins.  Not counting last year's games,
    the Bengals have scored 811 points and the Browns 768.
    
    This current streak by Cincy is only the second 5-game winning streak
    by one team in the series.  After splitting the first 2 games the
    Browns ran off a 5-game streak in the early years of the rivalry. 
    Cincinnati then turned around and won 4 in a row.  The Browns also had
    3-game streaks in 80-81 and 86-87, while Cincinnati had a 4-game streak
    from 83-85.  After that early winning streak by Cleveland, it took the
    Bengals 29 games to lead the series.
    
    To underscore how close this series has been, in its 21 years there
    have been 11 season splits, 6 Bengal sweeps (one of which was 1982 when
    there was only one game played between the 2) and 4 Browns sweeps.
    
    John 

    
    	Thanks John...but, you should have posted the Squeelers/Browns
    series here too.....anyway, I'll do it.  Browns have the series..
    48-32
    
    	Now, for the big game played last Friday in Washington.  A
    great game.  I was able to pick it up off the bird.  The Browns
    were tough throughout!  For those of you that will say, "its only
    pre-season".  Washington wanted to win this game bad.....even
    their announcers said this many times.  They kept bring up the
    point that on every third down the Browns had, Washington would
    bring in their 1st string defense.
    	Big points in the game....Kevin Mack played quite abit of the
    game and looked fine.  Metcalf did play.  Hoard did not.  Morris
    had another good game and will surely make the team.  Slaughter
    did not play for the second week.  Michael (Thriller) Jackson was
    a starter.  
    	At the end of the first half, the Redskins led by a score of
    14-7.  The Redskins had one good drive then scorded after a fumble.
    the Browns had a well sustained drive that ended with a big run
    by Mack for a 8 yrd TD.  
    	In the third quarter, the Browns got the ball first and had a
    big interferance call when Jackson was wide open....45 yrd penalty.
    The very next play....a big reception by Jackson to the Redskins
    4 yrd line which set up a running TD.
    	In the fourth quarter, Kevin Mack made a great run through the
    middle only to get hit...hard...and the ball popped out.  The ball
    was Washingtons on the Browns 40 yard line.  The Redskins scored 
    when Rookie Safety Ed Turner missed an assignment.
    	Late in the game, Washington missed a fieldgoal with 1:32 left.
    With 8 seconds left the Browns Joins catches a ball at the Redskins
    4.  With 4 seconds left, Gainer catches the tieing TD.  
    	In overtime, the Browns get the ball first and drive to the 
    Redskins 25 yard line and on 3rd and 4, elect to kick a field goal.
    It was wide right.  Washington gets the ball back only to fumble it
    away on their own 45 yard line.  The Browns drive the ball, on all
    running plays, back to the Redskins 28 and kick a field goal.  The
    Browns win!
    
    	Cleveland continues to look tough in pre-season.  Now, how many
    people want to say, "Cleveland will be lucky to win 6 games this year"?
    Not me, I say "They have a good chance at going 500 but expect them
    to win 10...this year!
    
    	Dirty Dawg
    

    
     <<< Note 56.215 by CNTROL::CHILDS "Take me to Roslyn's Cafe Please" >>>
         -< Squellers will be lucky to win 5 games this year...nuff said >-
    
    There, I corrected that small typo, for you Mike...   Thank you very 
    much.
    
    /Jeff

>    Not me, I say "They have a good chance at going 500 but expect them
>    to win 10...this year!
    
    
    Hal, changing your prediction already?
    
    
>           <<< CAM::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
>               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
>================================================================================
>Note 56.100                     Cleveland Browns                      100 of 216
>ROULET::WHITEHAIR "Don't just sit there.......Do it" 16 lines  25-APR-1991 11:19
>                           -< your all weeennnners. >-
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    John,
>    		Thanks!  I'd bet the Browns will *win* between 10 and 13 
>    games this year.  Tough games...Phili, Dallas, San Diago, maybe, just
>    maybe, Wash and Giants.  Schedual looks good though....only 2 away 
>    games in a row.  I'm not going to *whine* about it!  
    

    
    No, I'm not changing my mind at all.  I really do believe they can
    win 10 this year and with some luck (which they had none of last year)
    will win 13.  Preseason has been good for the Browns.  It shows them
    that the season could be a good one for them.  The game last Friday
    also shows them never to give up.  Its just funny how everyone has
    predicted nothing out of the Browns.  Now, after the last two games,
    I've heard many people say that Browns will be formital...this year.
    Next year, watch out, they will be back in the play-offs.  I'd like
    to see them make the play-offs *this* year.  Then I can say to you
    all, eat that!
    	I seem to remember 1985, the Browns got this new QB called
    Bernie Kosar, The Browns will go nowhere.  What happened?  They took
    everyone by surprise, even those high rated Giants.....  
    
    	Just a warning...Don't be surprised!
    
    	Dirty Dawg
    

>    No, I'm not changing my mind at all.  I really do believe they can
>    win 10 this year and with some luck (which they had none of last year)
>    will win 13.  
    
    Yes you are because a few back you said they "have a good chance" to go
    500.  In April you said they WILL win 10 to 13 games.  You're hedging.
    
>    Its just funny how everyone has
>    predicted nothing out of the Browns.  Now, after the last two games,
>    I've heard many people say that Browns will be formital...this year.
    
    Who is "everyone" and who is "many people"?  Sounds like another
    contradiction to me.
    
>    	I seem to remember 1985, the Browns got this new QB called
>    Bernie Kosar, The Browns will go nowhere.  What happened? 
    
    They choked in the AFC championship games and Art Modell railroaded the
    only coach that seemed to be able to do something with Kosar.  Seems he
    did a similar thing with a guy named Brown.  
    
    	--dan'l

    
    everyone/many people ... who are they ... sport casters, newspaper 
    writers, friends, fows, relatives and the list goes on and on.  I
    even heard that in todays USA Today, there is a big artical on the
    New Look Browns.
    	Even you, my friend, are now saying they will be better.  The
    real question is how much better?  If the running game is sound,
    I'd say lots better.
    
    	Dirty Dawg
    

>>                   -< worst stadium to play in...Cleveland >-

    Correct there, that green spray painted raw sewage they call turf is
    the pitts.  Plus the stench of the city of Clevescum is unbearable.
    
    
    >>	Even you, my friend, are now saying they will be better.  The
    >>real question is how much better?  If the running game is sound,
    >>I'd say lots better.
    
    >>	Dirty Dawg
    
    It's pretty hard for them to get any worse.  But then again, it's
    always possible.
    
    
    
    JaKe
    

    

    
    	Oh Jake,
    		Your just soooooo funny.  The reasons you give are not 
    the reasons listed by the football players of the NFL.  The players
    say it is the worst stadium to play in because of the swerling wind,
    snow, but most of all because of the tough team that makes its home
    there, not to mention the Dawg pound.
    		BTW, how have those Squeelers done so far this preseason?
    How is that new QB shapping up?  Is he still winning the fight?
    		How come you didn't say anything about the 48-32 spanking
    those Squeelers have gotten from the Browns over history?
    
    		Dirty Dawg
    

>    	Even you, my friend, are now saying they will be better.  
    				 ^^^
    Sorry, Hal, but my sports objectivity goes beyond your premature
    ejaculation over a few preseason wins:
    
>           <<< CAM::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
>               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
>================================================================================
>Note 56.63                      Cleveland Browns                       63 of 222
>SHALOT::MEDVID "No I was not pushing that time"      10 lines  16-APR-1991 13:25
>         -< "I'll work your stickshift if you go back to Cleveland." >-
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    .
    .
    .
>    Seriously, however, I do think the Browns will be back, though not at
>    the top of the division.  It will be another season of underachieving
>    by all four teams and the one that gets hot at the end will take it.
>    
>    	--dan'l
    
    and:
    
>           <<< CAM::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
>               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
>================================================================================
>Note 56.82                      Cleveland Browns                       82 of 222
>SHALOT::MEDVID "No I was not pushing that time"      25 lines  19-APR-1991 16:19
>                        -< No new QB wanted or needed >-
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    .
    .
    . 
>    I think the Steelers and the Browns will end up with identical records
>    this year at 8-8.  Browns will rebuild and be an OK team.  The Steelers
>    will waste loads of talent due to a breakdown in team chemistry.
>    
>    And if Houston doesn't win the division this year...when will they?
>    
>    	--dan'l

    >>		BTW, how have those Squeelers done so far this preseason?
    >>How is that new QB shapping up?  Is he still winning the fight?
    
    Read the game summary/Steeler notes in 35.something.  O'Donnell is
    producing, Brister is not, so far.
    
    >>		How come you didn't say anything about the 48-32 spanking
    >>those Squeelers have gotten from the Browns over history?
    
    Because I don't put much consideration towards 50+years record of one
    team vs another.  The Brown(spot)s(tm) dominated the Steelers for many
    many years when the Steelers were perrenial losers.  I'd like to see
    the records between the 2 teams over the last 25 years only, although
    it doesn't much matter.  What does matter is what is in the future.
    Reminiscing over a 48-32 record doesn't amount to a hill of beans if
    your team doesn't beat them this year.  Remember, over the lasted 2
    years the teams are 2-2, and neither team has gone to the Super Bowl,
    so who gives a rats a$$ about past records.  Teams change so much over
    the course of 2 or 3 years anymore, what's it prove.  If the Steelers
    were 48-32 over teh Brown(spot)s(tm), it still wouldn't mean crap for
    this years meetings.
    
    JaKe
    

      re-223...I think its funny,  Premature ejac.
    
      And Hal,  please don't tell me to get a life when its obvious that
    you can't figure out your own!  winning 13 games this year with luck? 
    They must be playing the patriots 11 of those huh?
    
         tim

Hal's a-wearin' them Brown-tinted glasses.....

    
    Dan'l,
    		You are probibly one of the only people who admits
    that the Browns will be better.  I'm just trying to be optimistic.
    With the schedual they have and not many turnovers, I really do
    believe they can win 10 or more.  
    
    		Lets see the stats on turnovers/divisions won/playoffs, 
    John.
    
    Jake,
    		You can say all that crap because your on the other side
    of the fence, but, *I* know how much it hurts you inside.  It's 
    the main reason for your dislike of the Browns.  In fact, I'd be
    willing to bet, that even through all those super bowl years the
    Squeelers went through, they still couldn't dominate the Browns.  
    
    Way,
    		It's funny you say that......the other day when we went
    through the Bob thing.....my electricity went off for awhile then
    came back on, but only at half power.....I went to the next door
    neighbors house and he said it was a "Brown" out.  I thought he
    was pulling my leg.  Cool Man!  A "Brown Out".  Thats what the Giants
    and Redskins got the other day..... A "Brown Out"!
    
    	
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    On the news front:  The Browns released Roy Green yesterday.  Why?
    
    	Answer:  Because of Michael "Thriller" Jackson!
    
    
    	Dirty Dawg
    

    
    >>Jake,
    >>		You can say all that crap because your on the other side
    >>of the fence, but, *I* know how much it hurts you inside.  It's 
    >>the main reason for your dislike of the Browns.  In fact, I'd be
    >>willing to bet, that even through all those super bowl years the
    >>Squeelers went through, they still couldn't dominate the Browns.  
    
    Dream on, Hal, Dream on.
    
    No matter whether the Steelers led the series 48-32, or the fact that
    the Brown(spot)s(tm) DO lead the series by that margin, I don't give a
    sh|t!!!   i don't have to live in the past and gloat on records that go
    back, what, 50 years????  All of those records, plus 75 cents will buy
    you a cup of coffee, and that's it.   I, however, can gloat on
    something that you Clevescumites can't, 4, count em, 4 Super Bowls!!!
    
    Hey Ninja, can you give us how the Steelers and Brown(spot)s(tm) have
    done vs each other over the last 20 years???????  Not that it matters
    but it would be interesting to see.  I can see it now, the record will
    be something like Brown(spot)s(tm)21-Steelers 19 and Hal will be
    sporting a telegraph pole sized woodie, with a tank truck full of
    lacquer, and be proclaiming utter dominance!!!(8^)*
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Last year the Steelers vs. Brown(spot)s(tm) was split.
    
    
    JaKe

    If you tell me how they did against each other last year I'll be able
    to, no problem.  I would suspect it goes something like this:
    
    Over the course of its history, even discounting the AAFC days, the
    Browns have been a more successful franchise than the Steelers have
    simply because the Steelers were dreadful from their beginning until
    1972.  Over the last 20 years, Pittsburgh has been the more successful
    franchise overall but I'm not sure by how much.  Both teams have won an
    equal number of NFL titles, 4, although Pittsburgh's have been much
    more recent than Cleveland's.  Cleveland has a far greater number of
    playoff appearances in fewer years of existence.  In the rivalry
    itself, I'm willing to bet that Cleveland has dominated the early
    history with Pittsburgh dominating the seventies and it being
    relatively even through the eighties and into the nineties.
    
    I'll post the information you want but it doesn't really prove anything
    since what usually happens in this case is that a fan of a given team
    will take the facks that support his/her case and parade those as a
    means to prove that "my team is better than yours, chump."
    
    John

    Pittsburgh vs Cleveland are tied with the Rams vs San Francisco for the
    most games played between 2 teams at 82.  The Rams vs SF rivalry stands
    in the Rams favor, 48-32-2, virtually the same as the Cleveland -
    Pittsburgh rivalry at 49-33 in favor of Cleveland.  The rivalries ahead
    of them are Bears vs Packers (130 games, played twice yearly since 1930
    except for 1982, and a big edge to Chicago), Bears vs Lions (122 games,
    played twice yearly since 1930 except once in 1987 and is the longest
    continuous rivalry in the league, with another big margin for the
    Bears), Packers vs Lions (121 games, twice yearly from 1932), Philly vs
    Washington (111 games), Giants vs Washington (106), Giants vs Philly
    (102 games), Cardinals vs Giants (96 games) and Cards vs Eagles (86
    games and virtually even, with a slight edge to the Cards).
    
    The Cleveland - Pittsburgh rivalry started off with the Browns winning
    8 straight and after the first 5 years, the Browns had a 9-1 series
    lead.  The Steelers didn't win a game against Cleveland until 1954 and
    then Cleveland won 4 more in a row before Pittsburgh won again in 1956. 
    Cleveland won 4 in a row again before Pittsburgh swept for the first
    time in 1959.  The second half of the fifties went to Cleveland, 7-3 so
    the decade of the fifties stood at Cleveland, 16-4.
    
    The first half of the sixties saw the series split every year except
    for a Cleveland sweep in 1962, so the Browns took the first half of the
    decade, 6-4.  The Browns then embarked on a 4-game winning streak,
    split in 1966 and won 7 in a row (rest of the sixties plus first game
    in 1970).  The second half of the sixties went to Cleveland 9-1 so the
    Browns ended up dominating the sixties as well, 15-5.  In other words,
    the first 20 years of the rivalry went to Cleveland, 31-9.
    
    The seventies in this rivalry belonged to Pittsburgh as Cleveland would
    not sweep the season series again until 1986.  The first half of the
    seventies went to Pittsburgh 6-4 as the series split from 1970-73 and
    Pittsburgh swept in 1974 for the first time since 1959.  With the
    splits, and Cleveland winning the first game of the season, they built
    their margin in the rivalry to its peak of a 23-game advantage.  That
    changed in the later half of the seventies.  Cleveland won 1 game in
    the latter half of the decade, in 1976 and Pittsburgh had winning
    streaks of 5 and 6 games.  The decade stood in Pittsburgh's favor, 15-5
    and going into the eighties, the series stood in favor of Cleveland,
    36-24.  
    
    The first half of the eighties saw Pittsburgh with a 6-4 edge, with 4
    splits and a sweep in 1981, which is the last time the Steelers have
    swept the season series.  During that time period, Pittsburgh cut
    Cleveland's lead to 9 games, at 38-29 in 1983.  The latter half of the
    decade belonged to the Browns.  After splitting in 1985, the Browns
    won 7 straight and split in 1989.  The latter half of the eighties has
    the Browns with a 8-2 advantage and 12-8 for the decade.  Thus from
    1970 through 1989, Pittsburgh led the series 23-17.  The splitting
    continued in 1990.
    
    John

    
    John,
    		How can you say that the Squeelers and Browns have been
    even throughout the 80's?  The Browns have been to the playoffs 7
    of those 10 years.  The Browns have surely dominated the 80's.  I
    even think they have won something like 5 or 6 games in a row with
    the Squeelers just ending the streak last year, and in Clevelands
    worst year ever, the Squeelers couldn't even beat them twice. 
    Cleveland allways gets up for them, no matter how bad they are.  I
    would even suspect that Cleveland beat the Squeelers two out of two
    during their Super Bowl years.  
    
    Jake,
    		I know what you are saying - who really cares?  Right?
    I guess probably no one but us because it gives us the braging rights.
    I remember those days when the Browns would sent people to Pittsburg
    ahead of the team to try and take the jinks out of the stadium.  It
    was a problem there for years.  Up untill '85, I think.  Now the jinks
    is on the other foot.  I think the fans from both places just try to
    out do the other.  And did you see what John said?  He said that the
    Browns too have 4 Titles.  So, blow that Super Bowl crap out your
    pipe.  
    
    To All:  I truely know that the Browns will find it hard to completely
    turn things around in one year, but, I really don't think the problem
    was with the personnel the Browns have.  Some of the Browns are getting
    old - Mathews - Minnifield (31) - Clayborn (36)?, Hmmm, those are the
    only ones I can think of.  Some of the Browns are very young and some
    rookies will be starting - King - Turner - Jackson.  For the most part
    though, many of the Browns are certainly in their prime - Bernie (26) -
    Mack (27) - Slaughter - Fike - Babb - Johnson (Mike & Eddie) - Perry -
    Metcalf.  The Browns have the nucleous already.  The Browns do have
    competant backups now and with another year under their belts, will
    be ready to start.  
    	Some people say the Browns won't be a Super Bowl contender for 
    another 5 years.  I dissagree!  It is really possible for any team
    in the NFL to make the playoffs if they don't make mistakes (penalties/
    turnovers).  Those mistakes can kill you.  The Browns made plenty of 
    them last year.  
    
    Perry Update:  The Browns and Perry's agent met last Thursday and it
    is expected that the Browns will sign him by the end of this week.
    Nothing was done Thursday but, most expected him to sign by Monday (
    (which didn't happen).  It is still expected that he will sign by
    the beginning of the season.  
    
    Langhorne Update:  He is signed!  He and Jackson will be fighting it
    out for the starting position.
    
    Roy Green Update:  The reason he was let go - Because in the game
    against Giants, I believe, he got a foot injury (nothing big)
    and left the field to the locker room.  When he got to the locker room
    he showered and went home...even before the game was actually over.  A
    No, No is Bills book!  He has only made once catch all preseason.  The
    press say it seams he is trying to save himself...wrong...he had his
    chance and he blew it.  I think he will be picked up by someone and 
    will have a good year...not outstanding, but good.  The Browns picked
    him up so that they could spread the defense but with the comming of 
    the "Thriller" and signing of Langhorne, he was expendable.
    
    Washington Facks:  Bernie threw for 115 yards, something like 9 for 15
    with no interceptions.  Pillcox threw for 185 yards, something like 11
    for 27 with 1 interception.  (On Track) Mack ran 13 times for 60 yards.
    Morris ran 8 times for 48 yards.  Stover hit the 41 yarder and missed
    the 30 yarder because of a bad snap.  The Browns had the ball for 38
    minutes of the game.  Mack ran for two touchdowns.  Joines had receipts
    totaling 110 yards.  Jackson had 1 reception for 48 yards and one 
    interfearance call for 40 yards.
    
    Cleveland:  Is calling this year......
    
    			THE RETURN FROM HELL!
    
    If the Browns preseason wins have done anything - it has increased
    their season ticket sales.  As of last Friday, the first game of the
    season has not been sold out yet...only 60,000 tickets have been sold.
    
    	Dirty Dawg
    

    Hal, when I said even throughout the eighties, I clearly said I was
    guessing.  I was slightly wrong, but not by much.  If you'll read my
    reply from earlier today, I said that Pittsburgh had a slight lead in
    the early eighties, Cleveland dominated the late eighties and the
    decade stood at 12-8 Cleveland.  Overall, that's not really domination
    of the entire decade.
    
    And if you'll take a look at my guesses about the history of the
    rivalry compared to what I actually found when I looked it up last
    night, I wasn't too far off, now, was I?
    
    John

I think John was most correct when he said that no matter what he put
it would be manipulated to make whatever point was desired.

I guess it all comes down to the fact that some folks are objective
while others aren't.

If you're gonna look at a head to head matchup between teams, then
why bring the playoffs into it?  If you're gonna bring the playoffs and
and say "Oh, the Browns made the playoffs x times", the perhaps we should
look at the dismal record the Browns have had in those playoff appearances,
and the utter chokes when everything was on the line.

When Pittsburgh was making their playoff appearances, they DOMINATED
the league.  If you want to pull all kinds of unrelated facts into the
discussion to further laquering a woodie, why let's talk about how
Pittsburgh was the DYNASTY of the 70s.  Let's talk about how Pittsburgh
won FOUR Super Bowls, something the Browns haven't even been able to
attempt to do once.

I'm not a Browns fan, nor am I a Steelers fan (other than I liked Rocky Blier)
but if you want to discuss things in one framework, and then you want
to pull in all kinds of other unrelated facts when the framework doesn't
bear out your utter domination theory, then we have to mention Pittsburgh's
championship legacy.

JMHO,
'Saw

    
    	Good Job John!
    
    		Thanks, I was surprised that the Browns lost so many games
    	in a row durring the seventies.  Boy, I wish I was around back in
    	the fifties!  
    		BTW, I wrote my first note prior to reading your last.
    
    		

    
    	Way(out),
    		Your right, Pittsburg was, and I mean *was* a good team.
    A Loooooooooooooooong time ago.  Funny how things change.
    
    

    ESPN did their training camp report on the Browns last night. Jack
    Edwards said that you should take a picture of Bill Bellicheck (sp?)
    today and one after the season, just like the presidents.
    
    They interviewed Art Modell and he was upset that the fans were down on
    the players and management. What a baby.
    
    All the players like Bill B style and say he works hard.
    
    But ESPN said that they could be in for along season because of the
    division and they have some holes.
    
    

    
    	ESPN,
    
    		Why was Art upset with the fans?  You have to admit,
    	the players did have to carry some of the blame for all those
    	losses.  Agreed, Bud was bad for the Browns, but I remember
    	several instances where players wouldn't follow through with
    	their routs.  
    
    		Dirty Dawg
    

    re -1 
    
    Because he seems to think that the fans have short memories of a few
    years back when the Browns were making the playoffs.  AND CHOKING.
    
    I love the Bud bashing, last year at this time there was talk of the up
    coming season and Bud hired all this Asst Coaches, he loses he is a
    bum. Do the Browns think that of Marty and if and when the Browns fail
    is Bill going to be bad for the Browns?
    
    Mike
    

>    		Why was Art upset with the fans?  

    Because in the Modell scheme of things, everyone is to blame but
    himself.  Maybe when Art Modell realizes he is the true source of the
    Browns' continued problems and begins to act like an owner, Cleveland
    just might win something worth bragging about.

    	--dan'l

Right.  Pittsburgh was great a long time ago.

Now that you've mastered the concept of how bringing totally unrelated
facts into a debate doesn't accomplish anything, can you apply the concept
to your debates?  Or will the Brown glasses prevent you from seeing
how to do it?


(Next on Oprah!)

    
    	What do the Browns say about Marty?  
    
    	Well, we liked him!  He was good for the Browns.  It's too bad
    he really thought he should be calling the offensive calls.  I think
    he was wrong for being so hard headed.  The year before he was fired,
    we lost three QB's.  Maybe not all because of his play calling but
    it didn't help.  Why not get an offensive coordinator?  I really
    think he was trying to set up his son...?  At any rate, he was
    a good coach and I don't blame Art for getting read of him.  He took
    a team that wasn't suposto go anywhere and took them to the playoff.
    I'm hoping the same thing happens this year....with a little luck.
    
    		Dirty Dawg
    

    
    	What will happen to Bill?
    
    	The Browns front office will give him a chance...maybe 3 years or
    more.  Everyone likes his style.  They know they have something good
    here.  He will have more control over the Browns than anyone has ever
    had.
    
    		Dirty Dawg
    

><<< Note 56.243 by ROULET::WHITEHAIR "Don't just sit there.......Do it now!" >>>
    
>At any rate, he was
>    a good coach and I don't blame Art for getting read of him.  
    
    Now there's a bit of great reasoning for ya.   Seems to be the same
    reason why Digital is getting rid of good people...and ain't it funny
    that we're still losing.  The parallels are mind boggling.
    
    	--dan'l

    'Saw, 
    
    I will admit that the Steelers have numerous shortcomings, which, if
    not dealt with, will result in another year of watching 8 teams, none
    of which wear Black and Gold, in the playoffs.
    
    One fan in here who is blinded by Brown spotted glasses doesn't realize
    that no matter what you do with the Brown(spot)s(tm), you just can't
    polish a turd!!!   
    
    The day when that one fan realizes this, and admits to it in here, and
    starts putting in realistic notes regarding his team, I will probably
    drop dead of a heart attack!!
    
    
    JaKe
    

      re-1  CAn't polish...tooooo much.
    
      I have my orange glasses on,  but at least I know what reality is;^
    
    	Tim

    I have been a Browns fan for a long time.  Art made a big mistake by
    sending Marty packing.  Ernie  is the man Art should send packing.  He
    really has made some bad moves for players. 
    
    I think .500 will be a good season for the Browns, but I am hoping
    for better.
    

    	I figure the New England PAThetics will have one shot at a win
    this year and that will be on September 8th...
    
    				/Don

    
    	Don,
    		Will you give me a break!  Those Scuds couldn't have even
    beaten the Browns last year.  Your team can't get a game plan together.
    Players want to play on the Browns.  From what I've read, the good
    players on the Scuds want to be traded.  Expect nothing from the Scuds
    this year once again.  Go have another one will ya!  
    
    	Dirty Dawg
    

>Expect nothing from the Scuds
>    this year once again.  Go have another one will ya!  
    
    How's come you can say this but no one else is allowed to criticize
    your irrational thinking?
    
    	--dan'l
    

    
    	dan'l
    
    		Wrong, I figure that if I have to take it, I can dish it
    	out.  Why don't you have your share.  Besides, he started it.

    
    	Well, it wasn't much of a game really.  All you Browns fan don't
    have to start worrying either.  Bill didn't want anyone to get hurt
    in this game and he also didn't want to show Dallas anything.  To
    prove the point....Bernie didn't even dress out for the game.  Mack,
    Metcalf, Slaughter, Langhorne, Jackson, Minifield, Clayborne, M. 
    Johnson, Mathews and Turner didn't play either.  The Browns did
    however play Ismale (?), the new guy they got off wavers from
    the Vikes.  He made some very good catches.  They also played Morris
    for one series too but a Francis fumble stoped the drive.  
    	It is safe to say that Pilcox will be the Browns #2 QB this year.
    He looked good again.  
    	May be out....Oliphont (?) looked like crap, dropping about 4 or 5
    passes.  I never even heard of some of those guys the Browns had on
    the defensive line yesterday.
    	The offensive line looked pretty good and the #1 team played almost
    the whole game.
    	To give the Vikes some credit....their defense looked awsome,
    especially that guy Nugo.  The Vikes played their #1 defense the
    entire game getting tuned up for Chicago.  Willson played the 
    whole first half.
    	The Browns only score came with about 25 seconds left in the game.
    

    The Worcester T&G football reporter predicted that this is the year the
    Steelers get used to Walton and win the Central.  Houston will take a
    wildcard spot, and Cleveland will be battling it out with the Pats for
    worst record in the AFC.

    
    	Now with that noteworthy newpaper, I'd write it in stone.
    
    	Yea, Right!
    

    They are just followimg every football magazine that predicts the
    Browns to one of the worst teams. 
    
    The Browns showed their true colors vs the Vikes, usually the 4th
    preseason game means more than the first 1 thru 3.
    
    I forgot Bernice dressed out that is why they lost....
    
    

    
    	Oh come on Litelocks.  Wasn't it you babbling about some
    	preseason game (Browns vs jints?) a couple of weeks ago?  
    	Something to the effect that even though it's just  preseason, 
    	teams still want to win.  Now, you're saying this game meant
    	nothing?  Be consistent.............
    
    	Claybone    	

    
    	Claybone(head),
    	
    		I said that in the Giants game and the people that was
    put on the field proved it.  I'm sure that the Browns would have
    liked to win the game but, they didn't show it by the players they
    put on the field.  I don't think I said the game didn't mean anything.
    It did.  It meant that the Vikes 1st string was better than the Browns
    2nd and 3rd string players.  It also gave the Browns one last chance
    to look at the players on the way out.  
    		I even gave the Vikes some credit.  So, Claybone, go to
    the Dawg House!
    
    		Dirty Dawg
    

    
    Haliburton,
    
    	You can't tell me they didn't wanna win the game because of
    	who they put on the field.  They didn't play Berniece so
    	that right there tells me they wanted to win.  
    
    Claybone

Now I'm really confused.

For a long, long time, I thought that ACC Chris was the best tap dancer
in here.  Now Hal comes along trying to muscle in on his act.

We might have to have a dance-off to see who's better at dancing around
the subject, twisting facks(tm) to suit their fancy, and waffling in 
general......


'Saw

    
    	Funny Clayboner.
    
    	As I watched the game Saturday night......I got a laugh....
    
    	Bernie was standing next to Bill B. durring the game.  Bernie
    held a football the entire game.  Durring one of the conversations
    with the headcoach, another player came up to Bernie, from behind,
    and grabed the ball from his hand.  Bernie, surprisingly looked
    back, then finished his conversation with Bill.  Once finished, he
    took off after his football.  
    
    	I sort of thought it was funny, you should have seen the look
    on his face.
    
    	
    

    
    	Saw,
    
    		Now you've done it.  I really don't think I'm twisting
    anything.  I tell you how I saw it.  In the game against the Giants,
    I saw nothing from nobody about why the Giants lost the game.  No
    one said they lost because this guy held out and this guy was
    injured, nothing.  Now, gets *your* facks straight!  
    		The guys that are in the game are playing to win!  It
    just so happened that in the Vikes game, the Browns played their
    2nd and 3rd string the entire game.  Sure these guys wanted to win.
    But, this is not a true look of the real team.  I'd say, most of them
    won't be with the team after this weeks cuts.
    
    
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Does anyone have the spread for this weeks game yet?
    
    Are we going to have a notes pool?
    
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    	Dirty Dawg
    

    re-1  Thats funny??    I guess you had to be there type of thing to
    understand the humor....
    
      How do you know Bernice held the ball the whole game?  Are you
    eyeballing him or what?
    
        The spots only want to win the games that they do win.  They don't
    care on the ones they lose.  Does this help?
    
    		Tim
    
    

       I think he means the KoH contest Mac.
                                      Denny

>    	Bernie was standing next to Bill B. durring the game.  Bernie
>    held a football the entire game.  Durring one of the conversations
>    with the headcoach, another player came up to Bernie, from behind,
>    and grabed the ball from his hand.  Bernie, surprisingly looked
>    back, then finished his conversation with Bill.  Once finished, he
>    took off after his football.  
    
    For cryin' out...harhar...loud, Hal, stop it!  Hoho.  Hehe.  You're
    killing me!  That's...hahahaha...so funny I can't stand it.  
    
    	--dan'l

Hal, you're a regular Fred Astaire!

The look on Bernice's face was disappointment.  He was hoping the guy would
have grabbed a different ball......


We'll see when the season's over which team has a better record.....

    
    	The Cleveland Browns signed..........Michael Dean Perry!
    
    	In other news.....the Browns released Eddie Johnson and Derik
    Gainer along with a few others.
    
    	In a trade last week with the Raiders, the Browns received a 
    guard who's name I can't remember for an undisclosed draft choice.
    Well, the guy didn't pass his fisical (tm) and was sent packing back
    to the Raiders.  How dare the Raiders try to pawn him off being 
    injured and all.........
    
    	Dirty Dawg

    	Any of you New England based Brown fans going to Foxboro on
    the 8th?  Maybe we can hook up before the game.  You guys bring
    the food, we'll eat it.
    
    				/Don

       Better yet, Spot fans bring the beer, we'll drink it!
                                      Denny

    Anyone know if  "The Fours" bar near Boston Garden still televises
    all Browns' games?
    
    MikeL
    

    
    Yea, I've got tickets to the game but, I'm sure not telling you guys
    where I'll be sitting!
    
    All Browns games are televised at my house!  
    
    		Dirty Dawg
    

Say, has anyone ever seen Hal and the DeliveranceDude at the same time?????

    I hear tell Hal has one of those foam fingers, though it's not brown
    naturally, but rather from overuse. ;-)
    
    	--dan'l

    	Hey Hal, we park directly across from the Stadium's main gate.
    Look for a light blue Dodge Omni with a bunch of drunks staggering
    around it.  Bring some beers so you can share 'em with us.
    
    				/Don

    Has the Browns made another mistake?  With Gainer cut who are they
    planning to have at full back if Mack is injured.  Mack has a histroy
    of missing 2 or 3 games a season with bruises or broken fingers.
    
    I hope they have a GOOD backup in mind.  They will need the running
    to work, so the defense won't be on the field as much this year.  With
    all the young players on the defensive line and the old timers in the
    secondary the defense could have real problems this year.
    

    
    RE -1:  If Mack is hurt this year.......they have Hoard and Shavers.
    I think they have two others I can't think of right now.
    
    Your right about having a running game this year.  They will need it.
    The idea this year.....To keep the defense off the field.  The only
    weak point this year is the defense.  Their secondary has taken a
    beating.  Starters out......Blaylock, Turner and now Harper.  Blaylock
    and Turner will be back after their break during week 5.  Harper is 
    lost for the season.  The defense also needs a pass rush.  I haven't
    seen one in preseason.  The only way the Browns get any pressure on
    the quarterback is when in a blitz.  Hopefully when Perry gets in,
    and receives double coverage, it frees up someone.  
    
    There has been a gag order on the City of Cleveland for the intire
    week.  The order was placed by Bill B. the Browns coach.  In an
    interview with Art Modell this week, Art was asked if he attended 
    the practice yesterday.  Art said, I'm not allowd to tell you.  The
    news and sports casters are honoring the gag order.  The reason for
    the gag order.....not to let the Cowboys know what the Browns are
    doing.
    
    Durring the entire preseason, the Browns have shown any motion plays.
    Expect to see lots of movement Sunday.  Dallas will go down.
    
    The Vikes game last week:  It is reported that Cleveland did not dress
    10 of their starting players.  Viking fans were irate.  They paid big
    bucks to see the game and no one shows up from Cleveland.  Also upset
    by Bills decision not to play their starters....The TV advertisers.
    The idea behind Bill B. not playing the starters.....do not show the
    scouts from Dallas anything.  They didn't!  The question in Cleveland
    is "will the starters be sharp on opening day".
    
    Other news:  Cleveland Owner Art Model payed a newspaper reporter from
    the USA Today $21,000.00 in a court suit in which the reporter stated
    he was harrassed by Browns players in their locker room after two games
    last year.
    
    Still predictions keep comming in stating that the Browns will go
    6 - 10 this year.  Reason:  Defense problems.  Look for the Browns
    to have problems with offensive powerhouses the likes of Houston
    this year.  
    
    MR. Brown   re a note in the KOH file....  The reason I picked KC
    was because they are the for sure win.  Sure I feel the Browns will
    win this week but, last year I went with my heart in the KOH.  I was
    out fast.  This year is a different story.  I don't plan on picking
    any teams in the KOH this year that are from the AFC Central.
    
    	Dirty Dawg
    
    		GO BROWNS!
    
    

>    the gag order.....not to let the Cowboys know what the Browns are
>    doing.
    
>    Durring the entire preseason, the Browns have shown any motion plays.
>    Expect to see lots of movement Sunday.  Dallas will go down.
    
>    scouts from Dallas anything.  They didn't!  The question in Cleveland
>    is "will the starters be sharp on opening day".

>    to have problems with offensive powerhouses the likes of Houston
>    this year.  
    

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Looks like it didn't matter whether Dallas knew what Cleveland was doing
or not.

Looks like the starters didn't show up.

Looks like they had a problem with that "offensive powerhouse" in Dallas.

Dallas went down all right.  Down in the Win column...


'Saw    
    

    RE: Hal's consistent sign off "Down Bones!"
    
    That should now be "Down Boner!"
    
    	

    
    Ok, I'm on the ground now, so take your kicks......
    
    At least the Browns didn't get blown out like some of the teams did. 
    They got beat though and it didn't look good.  
    
    Injuries:  Clay Mathews was held out of the game because of a calf
    injury.  He may play this week, but thats still up in the air.  Raymond
    Clayborn is out for the season with a broken ancle/leg.  He is lost for
    the season.  Kevin Mack injured his knee and it is unknown how long he
    is out for.  These injuries only criple an already hurt defense.
    
    The Browns defense had lots of holes and Dallas took advantage of them.
    We had two sacks with Perry getting one of them.  Not too many bright
    spots to talk about.  Dallas took every posession in the first half for
    scores.  The defense looked lots better in the second half but couldn't
    hold up when they needed them to.
    
    The Offense wasn't too bad at all.  The Browns got taken out of the run
    quite early and had to pass the entire second half.  Bernie was only 
    sacked once and that came with 1 minute left in the game.  Bernie had
    a good day with the ball, no interceptions and a big 2nd half opening
    play to Slaughter.  75 yrd TD pass.  Kevin Mack ran the ball in for
    their first score of the game.  A field goal was missed in the second
    half which would have brought the Browns within 6 with lots of time
    left on the clock.  Then Dallas drove for their final score, a field
    goal which put the Browns in a two score situation.  Michael Jackson
    made one catch...that I know of...and droped a big gainer (possible
    TD).  Morris only ran the ball 3 times.  Metcalf played most of the
    game.  
    
    	Dirty Dawg
    

    Did anyone find the Dallas/Cleveland game on satellite? and where?
    
    Cowboy

    
    Yes the game was up there.......T2 ch 15.......
    
    Dawg Gone...  :-(
    

    Thanks Hal, and I thought I'd checked'm all.
    
    Cowboy
    

       Win    Loss
    
        0      1

    
    	So Dirty Dawgbreath
    
    	Now we can tell who the loosers are huh!! Still no cajones. 
    What a ground game  32 yards rushing! Since you say the game. What
    color was Bernie's dress? Yellow stains in front, Brownstains in back!!
    
    Cadzilla

    
    >There has been a gag order on the City of Cleveland for the intire
    >week.  The order was placed by Bill B. the Browns coach.  In an
    >interview with Art Modell this week, Art was asked if he attended 
    >the practice yesterday.  Art said, I'm not allowd to tell you.  The
    >news and sports casters are honoring the gag order.  The reason for
    >the gag order.....not to let the Cowboys know what the Browns are
    >doing.
    
    And everybody who went near Clevescum lasted week surely gagged,
    too!!!   
    
    I guess after the Brown(spot)s(tm) dismal performance against the
    Cryboys, everybody in Clevescum started gagging, too!!
    
    Uh, I hate to tell ya this Hal, but a couple of weeks ago, you said
    some pretty low things about the Giants and some upbeat jargon about
    the 'Spots.  Well, look in the paper, the Giants are 1-0 after playing
    one helluvva game against the 49ers, whilst the lowly Clevescum
    Brown(spot)s(tm) are sucking heiny at 0-1.  
    
    Hell, two or three more losses and this note will go AWFUL QUIET in
    replies from Clevescum's #1 fan(ny).   
    
    Lessee, what'll we call nexted weeks game between the Brown(spot)s(tm)
    and the Patriots, the Toilet Bowl??????????
    
    JaKe
    
    

    I can see it now!!!!!
    
    In a couple of years, Bernice Kosar will announce his retirement from
    football.
    
    Whilst driving on an icy road near Hudson, Ma.  His car'll skid
    helplessly out of control, going over an embankment, flipping 2 or three
    times in the process.  Bernice will be knocked unconscious.
    
    A few days later, he'll wake up in an all brown and orange room, filled
    with pictures of Brown(spot)s(tm) players and memmorabilia.
    
    He hears a key in the door, and in walks HAL!!!!!
    
    Hal is all dressed up in sh!t brown and carrying a large hatchett, and
    telling Bernice that he is his #1 fan, and that if he doesn't agree to
    come out of retirement and play again for Clevescum, that he'll cut off
    Bernice's penicular appendage and boil it in oil, then give it to
    Bernice for dinner.
    
    Bernice has to think hard about this one, but you have to see the rest
    of the movie to find out what happens next,
    
    Go see, "Misery II, Hal's Revenge" or "Misery By Lake Erie"
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    The Glob reported that the Pat's are 9.5 point favorites!
    
    Must be due to 'Saw's latest batch of 'shrooms?
    
    Kev
    

    
    	If you all remember...and you can go look it up...I did say that
    the Browns will win 10 games if there were no injuries......
    
    	Well, its happened.  INJURIES!  Its hurt the defense big time.
    
    	OUT FOR THE SEASON    OUT FOR 4 TO 6 WEEKS    OUT LAST WEEK
    
    		Gash                Turner              Mathews
    		Blaylock
    		Harper
    		Clayborn
    		
                   six guys out of the defense last week that I know of.
    
    	Who is taking their place???  People off the waiver wire.....the
    scrubs....the left overs....need I say more?
    
    	Mathews may be back for this weeks game but don't look for him to
    turn things around for the whole defense.
    
    	In Cleveland, they hope Perry can pull the defense together...I
    really don't think he can do it by himself.  Don't even see him helping
    out the team for a couple of week anyway since he held out for the 45
    days.
    
    	On the other side of the line....Bernie has done well and has had
    the protection he has needed.  The running game was really nonexistant
    last week with the reason being...they were taken out of the game
    fairly early and had to play catch-up ball.  You can't run when your
    two scores behind.  
    
    	Bernie had no INT's last week, threw for 248 yards and went 22 for
    31.  Not bad!  He should be able to pick away at the Patsy's this
    comming week.  Since the Pats don't have an ofense and Cleveland don't
    have a defense, look for INT's and fumbles to rule this game.
    
    	I'll still stick with the Browns to come back and win in Foxboro.
    
    	31 - 24
    
    	Dirty Dawg!
    
    		Jake, don't you know its bad to drink so early in the 
    	morning?  So, did Bubble Butt Baby Bone Buster Brown's Mom cry
    	when her baby hit the ground?   Hmmmmmmm, I bet he said something
    	like....I can't remember....

    re .291:
    
    'Shrooms indeed -- USA Today gives a line of Even, while SportsChannel
    this morning had the Pats as one point favorites.
    
    
    py

Hey everybody, gather 'round, 
Tap dancin' Hal is back in town.

Qualifies his statements with clauses galore,
Can't be pinned down any more.

The Browns will do this, if not for that,
same old same old same old hat.

Gonna see Hal dance, yep Mr Whitehair
is a regular Brownstain Fred Astaire.....

       Amazing isn't it. The Spots are obviously the only team on the
    planet with 'injuries'. Most teams can win 10 games or so if they don't
    have 'injuries'. Grow up, the Browns are a below average team. Injuries
    or not!
                                           Denny

    It is amazing!!! When the mighty Browns opened camp it was 13 wins.
    Then it was down graded to 10 wins. Don't forget the confidence Hal had
    that the Browns would beat the Pats last week.  Funny how things change
    after one lose.
    
    I also remember that some of the Browns fans thought that Ray Clayborn
    was a stiff, so he will not be such a big lose.
    
    Mike
     

    
    	Oh come one now...the Browns did look better in preseason when they
    had all their people.
    	The defense was able to stop the run and didn't do all that bad
    against the pass.
    	The offense got better each game they played together.
    
    	The Browns start the season with 25 rookies, 10 guys in their
    prime and 10 vets.
    
    	So, this week you got a bad offense (Pats) and a bad defense
    (Browns) playing against each other.   You also have a good offense
    (Browns) against an unknown (fair at best) defense (Pats).  
    
    	Look for Bernie's on the line calls to make the difference with
    the Browns comming through with two big pass plays to steal the game.
    Bernie will have another 200 yrd passing game with no INT's.
    
    	Dirty Dawg!
    
    		Take the Dawgs with 3!

       Big deal! The Browns might beat the Pats. This'll make the season
    for Spot fans.
                                    Denny

    I still have never understood you guys homophobic reaction to Bernie
    Kosar.  Despite a horrible season last year, Bernie's been a damn good
    Quarterback.  He may not be swift of feet, and his throwing style a
    little strange, but he's produced while in the NFL.  Prior to last
    year, a typical Kosar year was low interception rate, high percentage
    rate.  
    
    In collge, Kosar was one of the best QB's I've ever seen - and he's
    also extremely bright, finishing up his college academics in something
    like 2 1/2 years (and it was in a real major, not 'general studies').
    
    I admit that Hal's woof woof woofing gets stale, but nothing is this
    notes file is staler or stupid then the "Bernice" Kosar jokes, the
    homosexual innuendo around Kosar, etc.   Don't know if he married his
    college sweatheart from Miami, but she was one of the best looking
    women I've ever seen.
    
    JD

    JD, you spelled Doody rong.  :*)
    
    Hal, did you take any lessons from Wardle before he left?  Geez, if I
    substitute Jets for Browns, and Kenny for Bernie, I'd swear I was
    reading a vintage Jetsletter.
    
    lEe

       Kosar is one in a long line of Miami QBs who get to the NFL and do
    nothing. Kind of like Big10 QBs. Highly touted in College, then zip!
                                Denny

    Denny -
    
    How cain you say he's 'done nothing'?
    
    He was near the toop in the QB ratings, and got Cleveland into the
    playoffs, and INTO the champeenship game.  In the Ernest Byner fumble
    game, Kosar led the Browns to a furious comeback after the Donkey's had
    opened up a big lead.  ANyone who watched that game could see the kind
    of QB Kosar is.  Such is fate, however.  If the Browns had won, he'd be
    rememberd for that comeback.
    
    Unfortunately, Cleveland has made some very bonehaid personnel moves
    since Kosar arrived.  They let the team get long in tooth in some areas
    (O-line, defense...), and the losses to Denver really destroyed the
    teams' psyche.  Kosar also sucked it up and played hurt for most of a
    few seasons, and that came back to haunt him.  Most of the QB's in the
    league would have been in IR with the injuries Kosar suffered.
    
    JD

       Where is Groanski?   

       He's trying to figure out if ANY Cleveland team has won a meaningful
    game in his lifetime.
    
    HTH
                                        Denny

><<< Note 56.292 by STRATA::WHITEHAIR "Don't just sit there.......Do it now!" >>>
>                        -< Injuries/Injuries/Injuries >-
>
>    
>    	If you all remember...and you can go look it up...I did say that
>    the Browns will win 10 games if there were no injuries......
    
    No, Hal, you go look it up.  It's around .100 that you claimed the
    Browns would win 10-13 games...unqualified.  Now you get a little
    banged up and you want us to forget this ridiculous prediction. 
    Sorry, pal, you're stuck with it.
    
    And, for what it's worth, I think Kosar is a great QB also.  Wouldn't
    mind having him on any team of mine.  Too bad he plays for the Browns
    who dumped the best thing that ever happened to him...a man named
    Marty.  I count Pittsburgh's blessings every Sunday knowing what a fool
    Modell was for canning Schotenheimer.
    
    	--dan'l

    Looking for his fastball...
    
    Miami QB's - didn't Kelly go to Miami?
    

    ...yes Kelly went ot Miami. He's gone as far as Tony Eason in big
    games. Vinny went there too. Even Alabama QBs have done better than all
    3.
     
                                       Denny
    

    
     Boy, you guys got me HOOOWWWWWLLLLLING.....  It's good to see that
    Clowns Bashing is alive and well in SPORTS....   Sure is nice to
    see the Clowns starting off the season in their usual "Top-Notch"
    fashion.  I'm sure the Growner and Mr. Whitehair will have no 
    shortage of crow once again this year.
    
    Big Game

    Ah, the sure signs of fall:
    
    *  Cooling weather
    
    *  The start of school
    
    *  footballs in the Air
    
    *  Big Game back in SPORTS
    
    
    JD

    *  Bernice throwing footballs sidearm into the ground

    > *  Bernice throwing footballs sidearm into the ground
    
    That's only because of his bra strap always slippin down.
    

    re: .302
    
    Denny,
    
    Big10 QBs are highly touted because the coaches want the media to TNINK
    they have a passing game.  Most of the coaches still pass
    only-when-required.
    
    Command Scott

    
    	Whaddya mean "even Alabama QB's......"?  I remember a 
    	couple that have won it all.  Namely Stabler and Namath.
    
    	And as for Small Game, he just needed a little prodding. :^)
    
    	Claybone

    I		Green Bay	Bart Starr/Alabama
    II		Green Bay	Bart Starr/Alabama
    III		New York Jets	Joe Namath/Alabama
    IV		Kansas City	Len Dawson/Purdue
    V		Baltimore	Earl Morrall/Michigan State
    				John Unitas/Louisville
    VI		Dallas		Roger Staubach/Navy
    				Craig Morton/California
    VII		Miami		Bob Griese/Purdue
    VIII        Miami		Bob Griese/Purdue
    IX		Pittsburgh	Terry Bradshaw/Louisiana Tech
    X		Pittsburgh	Terry Bradshaw/Louisiana Tech
    XI		Oakland		Ken Stabler/Alabama
    XII		Dallas		Roger Staubach/Navy
    XIII	Pittsburgh	Terry Bradshaw/Louisiana Tech
    XIV		Pittsburgh	Terry Bradshaw/Louisiana Tech
    XV		Oakland		Jim Plunkett/Stanford
    XVI		San Francisco	Joe Montana/Notre Dame
    XVII	Washington	Joe Theismann/Notre Dame
    XVIII	Los Angeles	Jim Plunkett/Stanford
    XIX		San Francisco	Joe Montana/Notre Dame
    XX		Chicago		Jim McMahon/Brigham Young
    XXI		New York Giants	Phil Simms/Morehead State
    XXII	Washington	Doug Williams/Grambling
    XXIII	San Francisco	Joe Montana/Notre Dame
    XXIV	San Francisco	Joe Montana/Notre Dame
    XXV		New York Giants	Jeff Hostetler/West Virginia
    
    John

       That's why I mentioned 'Bama, they've produced some winners. Even
    the Big10 has a couple. But they were in the distant past.
                                   Denny

     	
    	Well, It's nice to see someone else stick up for my buddy Bernie!
    
    	Some news from home.....The word from the coach is...we have enough
    guys from off the waivers.  We don't want anyone's #48 player.  We will
    stick with what we have.  The secondary will remain unchanged.  No one
    is getting any kind of word out of the Browns camp this week.  The gag
    order is still in effect.  Reason:  The coach wants to keep any kind of
    advantage he can in these upcomming games.  He needs anything he can
    get.  
    	The only listed injury this week for the Browns is running back
    Kevin Mack with an ankle sprain.  He did practice this week.  I expect
    him to play and the Pats will not be ready for him and Morris.  Clay
    Mathews will play this week which will make Cleveland fans very happy.
    	I see the game going Clevelands way early and never change.  Bernie
    will have a field day with the Paties secondary and the Browns defense
    will play Minifield on Fryer and double up Collins to totally stop the
    Paties offense.
    
    	Browns in a laugher . . . . . .   31 - 10
    
    
    	Dirty Dawg!
    			And I'll be the howling after the game!

    
    >	I see the game going Clevelands way early and never change.  Bernie
    >will have a field day with the Paties secondary and the Browns defense
    >will play Minifield on Fryer and double up Collins to totally stop the
    >Paties offense.
    
     >	Browns in a laugher . . . . . .   31 - 10
    
    Gawd, I love to see claims like this proven wrong.  GO PATSIES!!!!
    
    
    Dickstah
    

    	So Whitehaid, you going to come have a beer with us before the
    game?  Your treat though.
    
    				/Don

      You'll be howling after the game,  or is it you will be whining after
    the game??  you know,  like little puppies do when they spend their 1st
    night outside......
                

What a typical patsy fan.  Just looking for a free beer.  

I think the Brons will beat New England, however I think it will be a close
game.  

I would say more like 21 - 17.

    Suppose the NFL threw a game, and nobody cared....what....oh...
    the Brown(spot)s(tm) are playing the Patsies Sunday, guess we'll find
    out.
    
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    Browns 20 Patys ZIP!
    
    REK

I hope someone brought some Kleenex, because when Hal gets in here......

    Neither team was at all impressive yesterday and I will be surprised if
    either team has a winning record.  It had to be the worst officiated
    game I've ever seen - not because the calls went against the Patriots
    (they didn't), but because the crew looked and acted incompetent. 
    Caused us a lot of headaches upstairs.  Neither team and none of these
    officials will be in the Super Bowl this year.
    
    I had never seen Bernie Kosar live before and the man can play, but he
    certainly doesn't look like a great QB.  (this is not a criticism, Hal,
    OK?).  He's all arms and legs, he looks awkward and he throws sidearm,
    but he certainly gets the job done.
    
    The story of the game - our offense went back into the tank,
    Cleveland's offense was on the field for a long time, eventually wore
    out our defense and controlled the game.  No excuses.
    
    John

    
    Well, yesterdays game was only the 2nd time I've seen a pro football game 
    in person, and I have to say that being there really brings the game 
    into perspective.  I don't know what it is about TV but the games
    allways seem bigger than life from home.  From the stands it just looks
    like a bunch of guys playing a game on a big field, not a life and
    death struggle..  I don't know, maybe it's the ramblings of the
    announcers when your watching on TV that get you so pumped up.  
    
    Anyhow, on the game...    Nice game by the Browns, however, I can't
    say they were challenged.  Patriots really didn't show up for this one. 
    Bernie looked sharp..  he would have had 3 touchdowns if it hadn't been
    for a motion penalty on M. Jackson.  John, have to agree with you on
    the officials..  they were out of it.  Can't believe they had to be
    reminded by the folks upstairs that a illegal use of hands penalty is
    an automatic 1st down.  
    
    Should be a good game next Sunday, as the Brownies entertain the (0-2) 
    BenGALS..   Time to find the Dawg Pound.  
    
    /Jeff
    
    

    
    	AAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
    
    	Boy it was nice to see Bernie Baby yesterday!  What a game he
    had...no INT's and two TD passes.  The score could have been lots
    higher too.  Slaughter's TD being called back and then the one that
    Michael ""Thriller"" Jackson missed.  Did you see the way he went into
    the end zone on the big 65 TD play???  I won't know what you call it
    untill I get some papers from Cleveland.  Something like the moon walk,
    I'd guess.  Morris played a good game picking up 70 yards on the run.
    	Thats what Cleveland wanted to prove...they can run.  They picked 
    up over 115 yards on the ground...most in the second half after the
    offensive adjustments were made.  
    	Bernie was sacked 3 times in the game.....I think two of those
    sacks, Bernie had plenty of time to throw the ball, but, being the guy
    that he is, he would rather eat the ball that throw one up for grabs.
    None of the sacks were hard hits.
    	I feel sorry for poor Hodson though.  He took a pounding by the
    Browns.  Perry hit him hard two or three times.  Then the big hit that
    caused the fumble.  The defense looked good!  They came in with a plan
    and it worked.
    	Being at the game was great!  I sat in sec 204.  There must have
    been 50 Browns fans there.  Strange how we all got together.  So, we
    were able to bark and howl the whole game.  There were some crazy's out
    there too.  This fellow in front of me (from Parma) was actually eating
    these little dawg bones.  He was sort of the instigator of our crowd.
    We got into it with these Pats fans when the guy from Parma screamed
    out that the Cleveland Indians could beat the Pats.  Ooooooo.  They
    started grabbing each others shirts and slobering on each other.  We
    stoped the fight before the guards got there.  Then there was this pats
    fan about 6 rows up...he kept getting up and screaming at us all when
    we barked.  We ended up just calling him Bart.  Well, Bart had this
    Bart Simpson shirt on that said eat my shorts on it.  Bart went away at
    about the middle of the 3 quarter.
    	Lots of fights in the stands though....I was really surprised. 
    About 6 Browns fans got thrown out above me.  Then I saw about two rows
    leave on the other side of the field.  Then the fight in the end zone.
    One guy had the back of his shirt ripped off.
    	The field looked great!  The cheerleaders, well, I only liked 2 of
    them.  The one thing I didn't like was that they all wore nilons. 
    Another thing I noticed was that I don't think one was endowed in the
    chest area.
    	To close:  The Browns needed this game and got it.  They don't look
    all that bad.  They will be in several games this year.  Next week will
    be a good test for them.  I'll take them against the Bengals.  I hope
    Mack will be back.  Hoard didn't do that bad though....big td catch and
    run.  Jackson better get some stick-um for the next game.  
    
    	GOOD JOB DAWGS!  WOOF  WOOF  WOOF
    
    
    	ps:  Lets see, I picked the Browns 31 - 10.  I didn't do too bad.
    
    	C L E V E L A N D   B R O W N S
    
    		B E R N I E    A N D   T H E 
    
    			B O N E   B A S H E R S ! 
    

    Re Brownie fans in Boston area:
    
    Not surprised that there were a lot of Browns fans there yesterday. 
    There is a club of Browns fans in the area called "Browns Backers of
    Boston" They used to watch games at "Fours Pub," near the Gahden, then
    at Who's on First across the street from Fenway Park. A friend of mine
    is from Ohio and a couple years ago we watched the AFC title game 
    (Ernest Byner's infamous fumble) at Fours, and Mike Dowling from Channel 
    5 interviewed the Brownie supporters on TV.
    
    Recently there has been some hassle with the bars because they would have 
    a sattelite dish, since NBC would usually show the Pats or an AFC 
    neutral game. I fergit exactly what the issue is with sattelite dishes,
    but the money grubbing NFL seems to think there's money to be made if
    they charged money to see out of town games.
    
    Tom (who used to be on the Browns bandwagon)         

The Browns handily beat the worst team in the NFL and Hal has a woodie.

Sheesh....



>    	Bernie was sacked 3 times in the game.....I think two of those
>    sacks, Bernie had plenty of time to throw the ball, but, being the guy
>    that he is, he would rather eat the ball that throw one up for grabs.
>    None of the sacks were hard hits.

Real QBs throw it long, out of bounds, or long over everyone's head.

Bernie throws sidearm though, and every time he throws the ball there's
the distinct possibility it'll get batted.  Probably smart of him to
eat it then......

    MrT,
    
    	Could you loan Litelocks a roll of Brawny?
    
    Claybone

Some observations from this Patriots season ticket holder;


The Browns are bad, the Patriots are worse

There were quite a few Browns fans at the game, more than I expected

The crowd looked larger than the reported 35,377

One guy in the endzone was a bloody mess as the result of a little 
disagreement

Numerous dog biscuits were thrown from the stands, I thought I was in
Cleveland

I don't expect the Pats to win another game until November (Jets)

/Don, Denny and I had a most excellent time at the Foxy Lady after
the game


Chap

Denny....

If you ever have a_extra ticket, don't forget the ol' Chainsaw....8^)

I was at the Patriots/Browns game yesterday.  As a Browns fan I must say
I enjoyed the game, however I don't think the Browns really had the game
under control until the 4th Qtr.  The Patriots started making a lot of
mistakes late in the game when they were forced to start throwing.  

The Browns played a good game defensivly, without them getting the
turnovers it might have been a long day.   They still however are weak playing
the run.  The Browns running game was ok, however it did not get going until
the second half when the Browns started throwing a number of short passes to 
Metcalf and some of the other receivers.  

I must admit from seeing Metcalf live, he spents way too much time dancing.
At times he seemed to wait until he was surrounded before he would decide 
which way he was going to go.  He is going to have to learn see an open spot
and go for it.  He is just not going to duke people out when he is in a 
crowd at or near the line.  

Okay, lemme know.  

I don't mind sitting with Slasher, as long as he doesn't drool all over
me or anything because of the Cheerleaders.... 8^)

    Sad to hear that the hooliganism in the stands still goes on. Also sad
    to see that the Patriots had the lowest attendance of any NFL game
    yesterday.
    
    Rich
    

    Yabbut, the Pats had the largest game day ticket sales in team history
    yesterday.

    RE. The dog biscuits flying in the stands.
    
    Next time, try not to sit in front of Hal!!!
    
    JaKe
    

Were is our Scotish friend that is a fan of the Bengals.  I would have
thought he would be in here tellings us what the Bengals will do to the
Browns next week.

I would expect that game to be very interesting.  

Perhaps he has switched teams since the Bengals have not gotten off
to the greatest of starts.

    RE 341:
    
    Well'Aye, Lads! He's guan ba' tae Scootlan' fur noo... Ye kin nae pley
    propa fitba if ye nae warrin th' tuygerr stripes, an' ye kin nae dispute
    thet, Lads!
    
    Translation: I'll have another pint of that thick brown stuff!
    
    Tom MacTavish 

After the dismal performance last year of the Brown's fans in here 
coming forward to eat their crow, they should be the last people to 
pick on anyone else.....

hth,
'Saw

    
    re: -1.  Frank, get off your freakin' soapbox allready.  Just cause
    you don't see eye to eye with Hal doesn't mean you have to spend the
    rest of the year ragging on the Browns and the rest of their fans.  
    Before the year started you mentioned you were looking forward to 
    seeing what Bill Belicheck could do with the team, so sit back and 
    watch and quit with the personal crusade.  
    
    hth,
    
    /Jeff

>    re: -1.  Frank, get off your freakin' soapbox allready.  Just cause
>    you don't see eye to eye with Hal doesn't mean you have to spend the
>    rest of the year ragging on the Browns and the rest of their fans.  
>    Before the year started you mentioned you were looking forward to 
>    seeing what Bill Belicheck could do with the team, so sit back and 
>    watch and quit with the personal crusade.  


I just like seeing consistency, that's all. I'm still looking forward to
what Belichick will do.  It takes my mind off the troubles in the
Giants camp these days....

Belichick has his work cut out for him, "Moon Walk" Jackson or not....

'Saw

    
    Yea, thats right.  You tell him!  
    
    	I was wondering the same thing Bohman, what happened to the Bengals
    fans???  What is wrong with that team.  I guess really nothing.  It's
    normal for the Bangals to get off to a slow start.  
    	Here's to hoping the Browns keep Cinci on the skids.....
    It should be a good game...hope I can pick it up.  The Browns still
    owe Cinci one for their remarks the last couple of years.  
    	Here's to hoping it snows in Cleveland this weekend.
    
    	Perry played a hell of a game last week.  He is back in shape!
    7 tackles, 2 sacks.  Didn't take him long.  
    
    	Anybody here any word on Mack yet?  Hope he is ready for this big
    game.  
    
    	Boy, if the Browns can win this game.....watch out.  It would be
    the confidance builder the Browns need.  Then, its the Giants.....not
    to be looking too far in advance.
    
    	Can't wait for Ed Turner to get back.  I'll feel lots better when
    he does.
    
    	Michael (Thriller) Jackson played lots in last weeks game...I don't
    even remember Langhorn getting into the game.  
    
    	Anybody get the QB stats for the NFL yet this week?  I'd be
    interested in seeing when Bernie Baby sits now......last week he was
    rated at 105 and #5 in the AFC...
    
    	GO BROWNS
    
    	MAY THE DAWG POUND OPEN THEIR DOORS TO THE BENGALS AND RIP THEM
    APART!
    
    	WOOF!  WOOF!  WOOF!

     I can't believe you Clowns fans.......   Your happless team beats the
    worst team in football (for 5 or 6 years runnning) and you are all
    drooling over Bernie again....  The Clows are a Bad team....  Just 
    not quite as bad as the Pats.  I forget who said it but I'd be real 
    supprised if they finish better than 8 & 8      
    
    
    Big Game

    5 or 6 years running?  Wrong, chump.  Try 1.  1990.  1-15.  A dark year
    in Patriots history, in many more ways than 1.
    
    1985 - 11-5 in regular season, became the only team to win 3 road
    playoff games to make it to the Super Bowl where we proceeded to do a
    Denver.
    
    1986 - 11-5 in regular season, AFC East champ, lost to Denver in
    playoffs.
    
    1987 - 8-7, 2nd in AFC East
    
    1988 - 9-7, 2nd in AFC East
    
    1989 - 5-11, 4th in AFC East
    
    While it's not the greatest record in the league it's hardly the worst
    and I think you owe it to yourself to get your facts straight before
    you sling insults.
    
    John

    
     Touchy, Touchy......  Course I'd be Touchy to If I were a Pats Fan
    
    ;^)
    
    Big Game
    
    P.s.  I really didn't mean to imply the they had the worst record for 5
    or 6 years.....  only that I felt the were the worst team in the
    league.  I think the Pats will be the `Aint's of the 1990's.  Personal
    opinion only, No facts to back it up but it's a free country 
    

    The way you said it implied that you felt we already had been the worst
    team in the league for the past 5-6 years and that's far, far from
    being the case.  
    
    I disagree with you about the future too.  We are on the way back but
    it's a young team with a long way to go.
    
    John

    Let's don't meddle in how bad/good a bad team is.  The important
    matter at hand is the Browns and Bernie.  Does anyone know which
    skirt and shoes he'll be wearing Sunday?  I didn't want my wife
    to clash with the TV....
    
    Cowboy
    

    Cowboy...  I'm rollward !!!!
    
    Now,  for the Pats.....   Yes,  they were in 6 years ago,  but they
    still weren't very good......  Just ask the Bears.  In all seriousness,
    I really didn't mean to crank up the Patsie fans in this conference,
    I was really shooting for the Brownspots to show their true colors.
    
    Big Game

    
    	Very amusing (Hal that is).  He speaketh of Bengal fans
    	disappearing and yet, didn't he don the magician outfit
    	lasted year about 6 weeks into the season?
    
    	Claybone

    No, and I repeat absolutely no Denver Broncos fan has any right
    whatsoever to be critical of any other team's performance in any Super
    Bowl.  I rest my case.  
    
    John

    Hello Dirty Dawg just thought i'd tell you Scotlands No1 Bengal
    fan is alive and well despite the couple of blowouts.Looking forward
    to Sundays game with the clowns the Mighty Bengals will raise their
    game and win their Sixth straight against Bernies Boneheads.
    
        Woof Woof Whimper Whimper

    
    	Well Ninj, I was behind you 100% on this til your lasted
    	note.  Why can't I (a Denver Bronco fan) be critical of
    	some team's play in a Super Bowl?  Cuz the Donks got
    	whupped?  Should we take it even further and say no
    	fan of any team that has gotten blasted in a game have
    	the *right* to critique another team?  This file would
    	be awfully quiet.  :^)
    
    	Claybone

    I'm still in react mode to his saying we've been lousy for the last 5-6
    years.  It really ticked me off.  And to a certain extent, Clay, I feel
    that if he's going to call the Patriots lousy in Super Bowl XX he has
    to call the Broncos lousier in Super Bowl XXIV.
    
    John

Reply 56.358.  I am glad to see your still with us this season.  Have you
been able to see any of the Bengal games over in Ayr.  I have just seen
the scores of the Bengal games and they did not sound to good.  

I think this weekend's game is important for both teams and it should be a
good game.  

I'll go with the Browns 24 -17.

    
    	I'll take that a step further Ninj....we've been the 
    	lousiest period. :^(  Even the Vikes came close to
    	winning one didn't they?
    
    	Claybone

 Here let me put an end to it for you guys...

  Patriots = Lousy   Vikings = Lousier   Broncos = Lousiest

 and the brownies who couldn't even beat the Donks have to equal Hopelessly
 Decrepite...

 HTH

    Well it was a sad day for us New Englanders on Sunday...Our EYES were
    full of hope that the Week 1 Patriots would show up to play the some
    what Lousy Browns...But no..Dr Jeck showed up instead of mr HIDE and
    they su$%##$ Big Time.  Now even though the browns are 1-1 and the
    bengals are 0-2 who do you really think the better team is....Neither
    HOUSTON KICKS both there Buts...I will be watching and praying that
    Cleveland Kicks Cinncy But...Why Because Cleveland is bound to fizzle
    out and would love to see houston 3 up on Cinncy, Im even hoping the
    Patriots beat Pittsburg for the same reason...
    							Go Browns...
    						Its hard to even type that
    						Im glad I dont have to say
    						it !!!!!!!!!
    

    re .360
    John, if memory serves me correctly, the very nexted meeting of the
    Pats and the Bears, the Pats returned the beating they took in the
    SuperBowl.  This same game McMahon messes up his knee big time with
    Dittka charging that the injury was intentional on the part of the
    Pats.  2 or 3 days later Dittka has a significant Stroke.  This win 
    doesn't avenge the beating fully from the SuperBowl but it showed me
    that they can play at that level.
    
    Conan
    

    RE: .365
    (sob!)
    
    Yeah I was there, and let me tell you, before the game I was one cocky
    SOB.  I ate alot of crow that day...
    
    The worst thing that day was Flutie beat those guys and (of course)
    mad_mac's (season ending?) knee injury...
    
    My god, the horror...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    re .366
    
    Wasn't it the first or second play of the game that Flutie throws the
    "hail Mary" to Fryer for the TD or damn close to the TD.
    
    I was there as well and the best part of the game was hearing the fans
    chant "DITTKA...DITTKA..DIITKA...".   He was having a bird on the
    sidelines!
    
    
    Conan
    

    REP 56.361
    None of the Bengals first two games have been shown over here,although
    i saw the highlights of the Denver game and it was a comedy of errors
    for the Bengals.In Scotland we get highlights of a game on the Sunday
    night at 8.30 pm The first game was the Eagles Green Bay game last
    sunday it was the Rams Gaints.We also get the monday night game
    televised over here on wednesday.
    By the way i agree with your prediction for the score but it will
    be in the Bengals favour

    
    I put up with quite abit and kept quiet with John saying enough for me,
    but, when Mike, note .363 got in here just to say the Browns are
    hopelessly decrepit.....thats enough!  MikiBob my boy, lets talk about
    your toilet team (Giants).  Giants = American Standard = manufacture of
    the toilet.  
    
    Lets get some facts in here MikiBob.  The Browns have been to the
    playoffs 5 of the last 6 years.  How about the American Standard Team?
    
    I agree with John on many points.
    
    Now the teams that get the Lousy award in my oppinion:
    
    	#5:  Colts
    
    	#4:  Atlanta
    
    	#3:  Pheonix
    
    	#2:  Rams
    
    	#1:  Donks'
    
    	and the trully worst team of all
    
    
    			the Squeelers!
    
    	Dirty Dawg

    
    	Athomson (anon),
    
    		Go back to sleep will ya.  I'm surprised you even showed
    up.  How can you rant and rave after the humiliating showing the
    Bangles showed the NFL.  I would be embarrassed.  
    		The Browns own you guy a big one.  The game is sold out
    and the pound will be full.  The Browns will be sky high for this game.
    Don't underestimate the Dawgs.  This is a game we want bad!
    
    		BTW, how many INT'S has Boooommer thown?
    
    		Here's to hoping the streek continues....
    
    
    
    		Dirty Dawg
    

    The 1988 game with the Bears did feature a long pass from Flutie to
    Fryar on the opening play of the game.  It wasn't a Hail Mary.  There
    was single coverage on Fryar on the left sideline and he beat it.  It
    wasn't even that long of a pass.  We missed the extra point and
    eventually won the game 30-7.
    
    John 

    You know what gets me about the Browns? Their name. Unlike the St.
    Louis Browns who were named after a pixie elf, the Cleveland Browns
    were named after Paul Brown. 
    
    That's like having the New England Sullivans change their name to the
    New England Kiams. Or the Boston Frazees changing their names to the
    Boston Yawkeys.
    
    How egotestical!!! 
    
    Rich
    

    
    This sundays game:  Should be an interesting match-up.  Depends on
    whether the fired up D-line can stop Brooks, which has allways been 
    a problem.  Boomer might be able to pick on the hurting Browns
    secondary, however, he hasn't been to accurate yet this year and 
    I believe his receiver corps are hurting.  
    
    Don't forget this is the game Modell wants (remember his rivalry with 
    the late great Paul Brown), and I'm sure he has been letting 
    Bill B. know it.  
    
    Finally, to all the noters who keep insisting the Browns are soooo
    awful, remember, this team went to the AFC championship game the year
    before last.  Didn't Denver sandwich a 5-11 season between 2 super
    bowl appearances, just goes to show you, anything is possible.  Even
    more so in the well balanced AFC Central.  
    
    /Jeff   

>    Didn't Denver sandwich a 5-11 season between 2 super
>    bowl appearances, 
    
    No, but they did sandwich an 8-8 season between 2 Super Bowls.
    
    Joe

    Egotestical (tm) - a well-endowed male.
    
    John

    Well balanced AFC Central?  Hasn't been evident in the first two weeks
    results. The Oilers have blown out two defending AFC division champs,
    while the Steelers have been blown out by the third.  Cincinnati has
    looked like crap, and the Browns have beat the Patriots (as I suspect a
    bunch of other teams will before this year is up, and it pains me to
    say that being a Pats fan).  I'll agree that the Browns aren't as bad a
    team as last year's 3-13 mark would indicate, but the AFC Central so
    far is definitely Houston's to lose.
    
    
    py

    re on and off years
    
    The main reason why teams might go up and down like a yo-yo has to do
    with the schedule. Successful teams play other good teams for their
    non-divisional games the next year. The Bengals had this syndrome a few
    years ago when they were something like 11-5 one year (SB loss?) then
    with the tougher schedule, they flopped to ~4-12, then when playing
    other weaklings they rebounded to a good record.
    
    Tom

>    Didn't Denver sandwich a 5-11 season between 2 super
>    bowl appearances, 
    
    Yeah, but I'm sure Bernie has a different kind of sandwich on his mind.
    
    	--dan'l
    

I don't think the Oilers will win the AFC central.  It is more a question of 
time before Moon is hurt and out for 3 to 4 games.  I think the Oilers will
loss to KC this week end, and the AFC central will have a three way tie at 2 
and 1.  

I don't know why but I still think the Steelers have a good shot at the 
AFC central.  They would be better if they had a real QB.  

    
     I have to say Mr Hendry is probably right...... As far as performance in
    Superbowls goes the Donks are probably the worst performers.  I must
    add though that at least they got there unlike the Happless good for
    nothin bums from the mistake on the lake.  Sorry for the comments on
    the  Patsies.....  They are the best team to ever take the field in the
    history of football as we know it.  I'm sure they won't lose another
    game this year, they'll go to the Superbowl and win it 104 to zip.....  
    It's just to bad they won't be able to do it to the Clowns....   

    
    >>Lets get some facts in here MikiBob.  The Browns have been to the
    >>playoffs 5 of the last 6 years.  How about the American Standard Team?
    
    Hal,
    
    You're right that the Brown(spot)s(tm) have been to the playoffs 5 of
    the last 6 years, and to just go back 5 years, 4 of the last 5.
    
    The Giants have made the playoffs 3 of the lasted 5 years, which is
    only one less year than the Brown(spot)s(tm) made it but with the
    Giants, there is one exception, they came out of those three playoff
    appearances with "2" count 'em "TWO" Super Bowl Rings.  Now how many
    did the Brown(spot)s(tm) get???????
                        
    That's right,    "0"
    
    None
    
    Nil
    
    NADA
    
    Zilcho
    
    In fact, they didn't even get to the Super Bowl to have a chance!!!!
    
    
    JaKe
    

    re .last few
    
    This has smackings of self love all over it (read: ==Dean is God).  Are
    we seeing the same proclomation that Browns caint make it to the
    BigDance(tm)?  HAHAHAHA(tm).
    
    BTW... Big Game, I'll be in the springs on the 16th. if you want to
    bash an east coaster (or buy me a beer 8^) ).
    
    Conan
     

    
    Dan'l,
    
    		Yea, your right....its called the bread basket of...
    
    			Slaughter (House)
    			Jackson (Thriller)
    			Brennen (Hands)
    			
    	Bernie Baby is the 2nd best rated QB in the NFL!  
    
    		Coach Bill B. stated yesterday that Bernie is the best
    	QB he has ever seen.  "I praise his decesion making!"
    
    		Bernie said:  "Hey Man, Don't jinks me"
    
    	Bernie will be taking on the AFC's worst defensive team, pass and
    rush.  Look for him to make quick work of the Bangals secondary this
    Sunday.
    
    	Onother standout on the Browns offense....Eric Metcalf....#1 rated
    punt returner in the AFC, averaging slightly over 19 yards a return.
    Look for Eric to return one for a big TD in the second half.
    
    	Dirty Dawg    

    re -1
    
    Hal,
    
    This is not criticism of Bernie, or what Bill B has said regarding his
    QB. But I must of heard that 20 times from coach in the league about
    their QB.
    
    
    MIke
    
    
    

    Bill B has a point.  He's been watching Simms and Hostetller for the
    past few years ~/~

>            -< Where's that Browns gag order when you need it ;^) >-
    
    They don't have to issue an order to make us gag!

    Is Jackson a starter yet at WR?
    

    
    	Jackson started last week.
    
    	Don't know much more than that because the gag order is still in
    effect.  No word is comming out of the Browns on Mack either.  No one
    knows when he will be ready to play.  Did hear that Turner will be out
    for 6 - 10 weeks.
    
    	Bernie will start though.........
    
    	Dirty Dawg
    

    
    	YEA!  The Browns do it with the defense....here come the dawgs!
    
    Bernie Kosar leads the Browns on a 60 yard drive with over 6 minutes
    left on the clock to get the final field goal with 4 seconds left in 
    the game.  What a thriller.  Bernie threw 20 for 41 with no INT'S.
    There were over 10 dropped passes.
    
    This could be the turning point for the Browns.  Look for a good game
    this weekend against the Giants.  This game should be a 3 pointer.  
    Like I've said before, the Giants have a hard time with the Browns.
    
    On the down side.....Turner may be out for 6 to 10 weeks instead of the
    original 4 weeks.  
    
    GO BROWNS!  DO IT!
    
    		Dirty Dawg

    Its a sad day   
    the Brownspots ended the mighty Bengals fivegame winning 
    streak last night 14 to 13 maybe someone other than Dirty Dawg could
    give me an unbiased report on the game.
    
         Catch you in the jungle
    
    

>    	YEA!  The Browns do it with the defense....here come the dawgs!

Sounds like Belichick is making his presence felt.  With Bill being
a Parcells protege, I'm not surprised.

>    This could be the turning point for the Browns.  Look for a good game
>    this weekend against the Giants.  This game should be a 3 pointer.  
>    Like I've said before, the Giants have a hard time with the Browns.


The Giants will play the Browns tough.  The Jints have not been below
.500 since 1987, and despite the fact that Handley couldn't motivate
a snake to crawl, the players will dig deep within, and come out tough.
If the Giants lose, it'd be their death knell, because at 1-3 they'd
be out of it, for all intents and purposes.  Tough game ahead....

'Saw

    Jack Hunter,
    
    I'm not trying to say that we're the best team in the history of pro
    football, because we're not.  We're not going to the Super Bowl this
    year and will probably be lucky to win 4 games.  I was upset because
    the facts did not support your assertion of our overall lousiness for
    the last 6 years, and we're certainly not the worst team ever in the
    Super Bowl.
    
    Truce?
    
    John

    
    
    I see the Browns as a REAL long shot to win this week, however, you
    never know.  They were helped along yesterday by the refs a few times,
    the key call being a non-catch for the Bungles deep in Browns teritory
    with about 4 minutes left.  If the catch (?) goes the Bengals at
    minimum, kick a field goal and work more time off the clock, forcing
    the Browns to score a TD to win.  On the non-catch, the ball was not in 
    complete control by the receiver as he hit the ground, however, it wasn't 
    obvious on replay that the ball ever hit the ground.. it's the kind of 
    play that normally goes as a catch, so the Browns really caught a  
    break.  
    
    The drive engineered by Bernie to kick the winning field goal
    was pretty, however, in typical Browns fashion wasn't as "crisp" as
    other drives I've seen executed by true playoff caliber teams.  Some
    play calls were questionable, and a few times the offense let too much
    time run off the clock.   Regardless, though, it got the job done.
    
    Now, for next week.  The Giants will have to throw the ball in order 
    to be effective against the Browns D.  Will we see Simms?  If the 
    Giants Offense doesn't get going early, I think we will.  
    I see another low scoring game hopefully the Browns can find the endzone 
    this week.   
    
    /Jeff 
    

I did not get to see the Browns/Bengals game, however from reading the
USA Today and seeing a couple of high lights it seemed like a really good 
game.

The USA Today made it sound like Sam Wyche was pointing to turnovers as the
reason the Bengals lost.  However the stats in the USA Today indicated that the
Bengals lost 3 fumbles and the Browns lost 2 fumbles, so I don't see a big
difference.  But then I guess a one fumble difference in a close game is the
difference between winning and lossing.

I not sure I understand why the Gaints will have to throw the ball to be 
effective against the Browns.  The Bengals had 132 yards rushing with Brooks
getting 111 yards rushing for the game.  It seems the Browns still need to 
improve their run defense.  

I had seen that Joe Morris hurt his leg in the game.  Anybody have any 
information on at what point in the game he got hurt and how serious the
injurer was.  I think they are going to need Morris or Hoard in the back
field with Mack against the gaints.  At least then the Gaints will have to
give some respect to the running game.

It seems however the Browns are on the right track.  Next weeks game against
the Gaints should be another good one with the two wins now the Browns should
really be up for the Gaints, so you never know what can happen.  

Browns 21 - Gaints 14

      I won't predict a win for the jints,  but remember that the jints
    have a defense and the kitty kats don't.  The Broncos found out what a
    difference it is.  I really don't think the spots will score more than
    10 points against the jints.
    
      Look for Kosar to be pressured all day, if not sacked 5-6 times.
    
    	JMO,
    
    		Tim

    ************************ NEWS FLASH *****************************
    
    Alibengal here.  The Has Ben Gals have started out a ferocious 0-3.
    No team has ever started out 0-3 and made the playoffs.  I think
    I'll jump on another bandwagon for the rest of the season.  Are
    there any 3-0 teams out there.

    
    	None!  No 3-0 teams that are worth it.
    
    		The Browns bandwagon seems to be growning though.....
    
    
    		Dirty Dawg
    `

I saw the first half of the Oiler/KC game last night and I have to admit
the Oilers looked pretty good.  I really thought that KC would beat the
Oilers.  I guess I'm going to have to be pulling for the Pats this
weekend to slow the Oilers down (long shot as it may be).

After seeing the Steelers/Pats game I have lost some of my respect for 
the Steelers.  Their rushing game seemed a little better then the Browns, 
but their passing game did not impress me at all.  The Steelers defense
also did not look that impressive.  

The Bengals could be in real trouble this season they play the Redskins 
this week end.  A loss to the Redskins will really put the Bengals in
a big hole (0-4).  

    re -1
    
    The Oilers seem to have a solid defense this year 
    that could make a world of difference for them this year.
    
    They do look good....  But they have a tough 5 games at the end of the
    year.
    
    People can say what they want about Warren Moon but I have him on my
    team any day.  He is alot tougher than people give him credit for.
    
    JMO
    Mike
    
    

>    People can say what they want about Warren Moon but I have him on my
>    team any day.  He is alot tougher than people give him credit for.

He certainly hung in there on the TD pass that was called back on the 
illegal motion call.  One lineman sacking him and the other about the
join in.

Mike

    rep 398
     
    Holeass is back in town,the man who disappears when his team has
    a bad season but you'll all notice he surfaces when his team has
    a winning record now thats the Groaner.As for bandwagon jumping
    forget it i can handle the mighty Bengals losing you just can't
    handle it when the Browns lose.
           
           The boys will be back

    
    Sam Wyche got out-coached AGAIN.  When will the Bengals wake-up and get 
    a real coach, and unload this master of gimick.  I can't think of
    any other coach in the league who has gotten less out of so much raw
    talent.  
    
    /Jeff

    re -1
    
    ESPN said last week that Sam was on the hot seat. If they lose this
    week to washington he will probably go because the AFC central has a
    bye for week 5. A good time to get a new coach in with a week off.
    
    Mike
    

    
    re: .403
    
    
    ATHOMPSON, maybe some of us have real jobs... make real
    contributions to DEC (making sure there are products that
    pay our salary and keep the company going) and don't have
    time to play around in notes all day.  
    
    You call yourself the real fan... I've seen more Browns
    games this year than you've seen Bengals games... and I know
    that for a fact.
    
    
    

I agree Sam has not been able to get any consisent play out of the Bengals.
The Bengals always would play a great game one week and then be just in the
game the next.  

But as everyone would like to point out.  He did lead them to the Superbowl
one year.  Which seems to be the only measure of success. We Browns fans
are always reminded of that.  

So why fire old Sam?  If he did it once he surely can do it again right;^)

I really feel the Bengals should keep Sam.  It would mot do them any good to
change coaches during the season.  Look how the Browns did last year after
changing coaches.  

No, let Sam play out the season and lets see if the LADS can come back.

I sure our Bengal loving friends would agree.

    I totally agree with the last note,losing three straight is no reason
    to sack a great coach.Two Central titles and a superbowl appearance
    in the last three seasons are proof enough of his ability.

    
    Sam has had as many good seasons as horrible seasons, most of his teams 
    have had awesome raw talent which he has consistently under-utilized.  
    
    With a quality coach not hell-bent on stupid gimicks the Bengals would 
    probably have a couple S.B. rings by now.
    
    For the Browns sake, I hope they keep him!
    
    /Jeff        

    
    On the Browns front..  saw that the Browns reported no injuries for 
    Sundays game.  This is good news because both Joe Morris and Webster 
    Slaughter went down against the Bungles.   It's nice to see the Brownies 
    getting through a few games without too many key injuries.. 
    
    /Jeff

I saw a tape of the Browns/Bengals game last night.  I am surprized there
is no injure report on Morris.  Morris left the game late in the 1st qtr or
early in the second (not quite sure) but he did not return for the rest of
the game.  Late in the game they showed him on the sidelines in street 
clothes.  Perhaps is this more of the coaches don't let anybody know what's
up.

Also I think Hoard left the game late and did not return.  

Mack was back but he did not appear to be 100%, but it was good to see
him back.  He really is the Brown's best running back.  

As for the Bengals they did not look very strong on defense and their offense
really is missing Edie Brown.  If it was not for Brooks running, the 
Bengals would not have much offense at all right now.  None of the other
Bengal running backs did that much.  If the Bengals don't start getting
it together soon they could be in for a very long season.  

    John Hendry...   TRUCE !!!
    
     I can't beleive how lucky the Clowns got..... (My HOOT Impression)
    If it hadn't been for the Zebras they would have lost the game in 
    the 1st quarter.  I saw their entire coaching staff handing out
    fifties to to the Zebras all day long.  
    
     What a laugh this team is, Bernice in an overrated BUM...  Most of
    the rest of the team is washed up and when will they get themselves
    some new uniforms, BROWN STINKS.....
    
    
    Big Game

    
    	BIG GAME,
    
    		Go to hell, well ya.  I personnally like the Browns
    	uniform.  It just reminds me of the old grindem'out football
    	of old.  No frills...just down right good football.
    
    		On to other news....the gag order is still out in 
    	Cleveland and the press is getting very upset about it.
    
    		Do you know what surprises me about this Sunday's game???
    
    	It's that the Browns are getting 12 points in the paper and 13
    	on the ticket.  Why?  I really don't understand why.  Especially
    	since the Browns beat them in preseason and that the Dawgs are
    	rated 4th in the AFC.  There has to be some kind of mistake here.
    	I haven't met anyone who wants to take me on this weekend with
    	that kind of spread.
    
    		Dirty Dawg
    

       I see Hal still has his $%&$%^ about the Stains beating the Giants
    in preseason. The Pats beat 'em too, and the last game even, when it
    was close to meaningful. What's that tell you about the worth of
    exhibition games?
                                   Denny

    	New York money was probably anticipated when the line was made.
    New York gamblers are known for backing their teams with bucks.
    But the 'Jints will probably cover the spread anyways.  8^)
                              
    				/Don

       It's 13 points on 'the card' because there are a lot of Giants fans
    around here. I'll bet if you got one in Cleveland it'd be 11.
                                      Denny

And of course we know that you have the card for amusement purposes only.....

>And of course we know that you have the card for amusement purposes only.....
    
    Nope, with the luck I'm having I'm not amused at all!
                                  Denny  ;^)

    
    Close don't count for Sh!t, but, hey it's much better than last years 
    model.  Still haven't seen the Browns play a quality opponent IMO, 
    therefore, the juries still out on this team.  
    
    Guess the real test will come in 3 weeks when the Browns play the
    Redskins at RFK.  A week off should help them rest up for the Jests.
    
    /Jeff
    
    

    The Giants continued their domination of the Browns in 1991.  Will the
    Browns ever figure out how to beat New York?  You'd think with all that
    prep time, a team could figure out how to win.  
    
    	--dan'l

    
    re -1..  yeah, but at least they still dominate the Bengals..  ;-)
    

 Great reply Denny hahahaaa

 Jeff, what's a matter? You seem upset...

 mike

    
    No Mike, I'm not upset..  why should I be?   Browns played a spirited 
    game, and didn't get blown out as everyone in here seems to think they 
    should have..   Contrary to public opinion in here, the Browns are
    going to compete for the AFC Central this year.  Yesterdays game along 
    with the display of Houston vulnerability has convinces me of it.  
    
    Besides, any day that Pitts, Houston, and Cincy loose has gotta be a
    good day, regardless if the Browns win or loose.. (but a victory would
    have been SWEET).  
    
    /Jeff

As you say close does not count for anything in the NFL.  The Gaints really
controlled the Browns in the first half.  The Brwons looked much better
in the second half.  I thought the Browns where going to pull it out after 
Mack scored his touch down, but the Browns just couldn't make the plays at
the end when they needed them.  

It was however much better then last year where the Browns would not have 
come out for the second half.  The only good thing about last year is that 
of the 3 games they won last year ONE of the teams they beat was the DENVER 
DONKEYS.  I think that game was even played in Denver.   

The Browns are much better then last year and I think they are improving.  If
they can stay close until the second half of the season I think they will
make things very interesting.

The Pats pulled a real upset this weekend, I'm sure the Oilers are wondering
what happen.  

Hal?  Paging Hal, pick up the white courtesy phone, paging Hal....8^)

    There's a loud echo in the space that Hal normally fills!!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    
    	Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!  WOOF!
    
    		I'm here!  I don't feel too bad either.  The Browns played
    a good game aginst the 1990 Super Bowl Champs.....  The Browns should
    have won the game with all the turnovers in the game.  I noticed that
    no one mentioned the zebras....?  Some pretty bad calls I'd say.
    
    		The first sack of the game by LT....wasn't he offsides?
    Yep, I think so.  Then at the end of the game...didn't Webster get
    tackled before the ball got to him?  Yep, I think so.  There were
    a couple more but I won't mention them.  
    
    		The game could have been lots different if Michael Jackson
    could have caught that overthrow from Bernie.  Bernie didn't have that
    good of a day either.....he looked skitish to me.  All this season
    the Browns have played lots better in the second half.  
    
    		I don't understand why Bernie didn't play shotgun on that
    third down play in the forth quarter where he got sacked.  Looking
    back, I think they should have gone for the 4th down play.
    
    		Great punt return by the Browns in the 2nd half aeeeeeee?
    
    	I was surprised!  So was everyone else.
    
    	I think Mike Johnson getting hurt in the first play of the game
    hurt....BIG TIME!
    
    
    	The Browns will be competitive and I can already tell people are
    taking note.
    
    		WOOF!
    Dirty Dawg
    

    Could have + would have + should have + might have + 
    a big helping of Clemson style Ref bashing still equals 
    
    A LOSS FOR THE BROWN(SPOT)S(TM)!!!!
    
    just like the rest of the AFC Central.
    
    JaKe
    

>The Browns played a good game aginst the 1990 Super Bowl Champs.....  
    
    But only six short weeks ago, it was "the Browns have dominated the
    Giants for a decade (3 games)."  Now you're happy with a loss (blamed
    on the refs) to the almighty Super Bowl Champs.  Such ugly
    justifications for such an objective man as yourself, Hal?!?  I'm
    amazed.
    
    	--dan'l

       Obviously it was a 'excellent loss' dan'l.
                                      Denny

Hell, the refs owed LT that offsides.  #69 and #66 (I think) were holding
him all afternoon.  If they'd have been called for every holding, 
I doubt the Browns would have got off an official play.

And hey, didn't Bernie and the Boys get all that benefit at the end of
the game with all those flags?  Gee, the crowd noise musta woke them
up, startled them and they threw the flag.

Collins and the Jints' secondary effectively shut down Michael Jackson.

That other dude (Brian Brennan?)...I'll tell you he's got one big
pair, and of all the Cleveland players that guy earned a heapin' helping
of my respect yesterday.....

'Saw

    
     Well,  I see Hal is doing his HOOT impression again....  I'm sure he
    thinks he saw Giant Assistant Coaches handing out fifties to the Zebras
    on the side lines.  HOOT still has those kinds of visions every time
    the L.A. LA Raiders choke on a football.  At any rate, I'm sure that
    the Clowns  would have won this game if the only had some better
    looking uniforms !!!   ;^)
    
    			AND A FOOTBALL TEAM TO GO WITH THEM !!!!!
    
    
    HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!
    
     IT WAS AN EXCELLENT LOSS
    
    
    Big Game   (You Know....  the Kind the Clowns anways Choke on)

    
> That other dude (Brian Brennan?)...I'll tell you he's got one big
> pair, and of all the Cleveland players that guy earned a heapin' helping
> of my respect yesterday.....
    
    You better take that back quick, 'Saw, or the Ninj and Nazz'll be all
    over ya.  That's a BC boy you're talking about...
    
    glenn
    

He could be from the moon for all I care.

Anyone who will take that kind of licking and come back for more is ok
in the Chainsaw's book.

8^)

    No, it's OK.  I don't hate individuals who went to BC and some of the
    athletes who went there have earned my respect.  I got to know several
    of the players who were my age when I was in college - Byron Hemingway
    and Bob Watts come to mind, I met them through track.  I met Peter
    Cronan and Tom Lynch through teammates of mine who'd played ball with
    them.  The person who was the Chief Statistician before me, Ed
    Brickley, is one of the nicest people I ever met and is still one of my
    closest friends.  Randy Shrout, Head Trainer and Reid Oslin, Sports
    Information Director, and their staffs are and were class individuals. 
    While I don't know him personally, Chet Gladchuk comes from a terrific
    family.  His brother was one of Mac's last co-captains at UMass and his
    Mom, Pat, was a secretary in our Athletic Department, and she was one
    of the people who made it all work besides being a dear, sweet lady. 
    Any athlete like a Brian Brennan who can go over the middle and take a
    shot like he took is deserving of respect no matter where he went.
    
    My hatred for BC is institutional - teams and alumni as a group - not
    of individuals.
    
    John

      BTW,  The stains win over the Broncos last year was at Cleveland, 
    remember the infamous "we'll switch ends so barr can make his long FG
    with the wind" game?
    
      Denver will be back on Dec 8th.  We'll see what the refs conjure up
    this time;^^
    
    	Tj

    
    	Tj, I'm pretty sure it was in Denver........
    
    	Claybroon

    
    The game in Cleveland had to be 2 years ago..  Bahr was cut during
    spring training of last year.. and I know he kicked the field goal.  
    
    /Jeff

    Last year's game was a Monday night in Denver.  The "switch ends" game
    was during the '88 season in Clevescum.
    
    Joe

       I think it was 88. Hoot and the Parrot whined about it for
    at least 6 months before they left. 
                                    Denny

    What does it matter.....  The Clowns have never won a game against
    the Donks the ever ment anything... ;^)
    
    Big game

From reading the USA Today it sounds like Langhorn has been upset about
the amount of playing time he has been getting.  

After seeing the Gaints game I think I would like to see more of Langhorn
in there instead of Jackson.  Jackson is OK for the deep passing game put
I just don't feel he will go over the middle or catch the ball in traffic
like Langhorn.  I think Jackson dropped a couple of passes he should have
had that would have made a difference in the Gaints game.  

>I think Jackson dropped a couple of passes he should have
>had that would have made a difference in the Gaints game.  
 
    Well, if he'd wear gloves on both hands and quit moonwalking down the
    field, maybe he'd catch those passes.
    
    
    DIH
    
    JaKe
    

       Last year was in Denver,  I guess I just wanted to forget last
    season.
    
    	Tj

    Sheez, the Brown(spot)s(tm) lose to the Gnats, and Hal puts in !, count
    it, 1 note then does a disappearing act for the rest of the week.
    
    Lessee, another loss or 2 and we won't see Hal until nexted year after
    draft time whence the Brown(spot)s(tm) hire 59 assistant coaches and he
    feels that will be what it takes for the 'Spots to become the odds on
    fav. to win the AFC Central.
    
    (8^)*
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    RE: Jackson..  
    
    He's a burner..  to use him they gotta find a new quarterback.  Bernie
    has wasted a lot of speed over his years with the Browns, and that 
    overthrow on the first offensive play by the Browns is an example.  
    
    /Jeff

I don't think Bernie is the problem.  The long bombs are a low percentage
play at the best of times.  I feel Bernie hits his fair share of them.  

However from what I saw of Jackson in the PATs game and the Gaints game
if there was a defensive player with in 3 feet of Jackson he would drop
the ball.  I just don't think he will catch the ball in traffic.  Perhaps
he will develope but when the game is on the line I just don't think
I would go to him.  

    
    Reguarding Langhorn......yes, there has been some problems here....
    after the Bengals game, Langhorn took to complaining about his playing 
    time....and even didn't show up for practice.  Bill B. deceided to fine
    him and not take him to play the Giants.  Now, everything has been
    worked out.  Bill thought Langhorn wasn't hustling.
    
    I agree with you about Michael (Thriller) Jackson.  I've noticed that
    he has droped several passes lately....I hope he turns it around.
    
    Bernie, No problem with this guy.  Still rated the #3 quarterback in
    the AFC.  He did have some problems early in the Giants game but still
    came back.  I think Taylor gave him a little scare.  I also read that
    the Giants defense were calling the Browns plays at the line of
    scrimmage.  Thats what happens when you trade someone to another team
    of which you have to play.  
    
    Jake, you fake....see your wrong again!
    
    The Browns play the Jets this week......spread.....even.
    
    	In the Dawg Pound.
    
    	Dirty Dawg
    

    Enjoyable conf. for a displaced Browns fan in Germany. Special thanks
    to Mr. Whitehair for his informative accounts of the games. Getting
    televised coverage of any NFL game is almost impossible here. And the
    USA Today costs about a buck and a quarter a crack! I get the sporting
    news as a subscription, but unfortunately, about six weeks behind
    schedule.
    My mother's favorite player is Brian Brennan. She shook his hand once!
    Grrrr! Woof! Woof!
    
    Michael

There is a Browns new paper that comes out weekly during the regular season.
It OK at least it keep up to date with player changes.  Of course being in
Germany I sure you would always get it way late.   

Those anybody know if the Browns/Jets game will be on Channel 4 this week.  

This should be a good game.  I think the Browns really need to win it since 
they play the Redskins next week and going into Washington with a 2-3 record
would be tough.  From what I've read the Jets may try to control the ball
on the ground against the Browns.  The Jets running game appears really
strong and I was not impressed with the Browns run defense against the Gaints.

I would like to see Mack and Morris in there together more and really get
the Browns running game going.  I don't think the Browns have been able to 
run the ball effectively against any of the teams they have played.  I think
the Browns can win it, but they are going to need to shore up their run 
defense.  

		BROWNS - 21	JETS - 13

    Yes, the Jets games is on at 1 on NBC.........
    
    REK

According to today's Globe:

1:00 - Redskins vs Bears - Channel 7
1:00 - Jets vs Browns - Channel 10 (Prov)
4:00 - Chargers vs Raiders - Channels 4+10
4:00 - Cardinals vs Giants - Channel 6 (Prov)

Mike

    
    	Right on.....thank goodness the New England game wasn't sold out.
    
    		Mr. Blaylock is back for the browns this week after being
    out this season with a broken hand.  This should help out the Browns
    defense.  Look for Bernie to have a big day.  Look for Langhorn to make
    some big catches also.  The Dawg Pound will make the difference in this
    game.  Should be a great game though....should be interesting!
    
    	Go Cleveland!
    
    		WOOF!  WOOF!  WOOF!
    
    		Dirty Dawg

    It's vewy vewy vewy quiet in here. 
    
    A trend is developing here the Browns lose Hal disappears for 4 days. 
    If they win he is the notes files minutes after the game WOOF WOOFing.
    
    Jets 17 - Browns 14.
    
    Nice play by Eric Metcalf, Bernie looked sharp too.
    
    Mike
     
     

>    A trend is developing here the Browns lose Hal disappears for 4 days. 
>    If they win he is the notes files minutes after the game WOOF WOOFing.
    
    
Mike,

Are you NEW to SPORTS notes?  I don't ask that in a bad way, but if you
are, you are noticing for the first time, a phenomenon that we have
long observed here in SPORTS.

Each week, Hal comes in an woofs and struts his hour on the stage.
Then, on Monday morning, when the Crow Breakfast Buffet is served, his
place is strangely empty....


It's quite simple....the Browns sip.....


'Saw
     
     

    Bernice fumbles. saus he had too much Nonoxynol-9 
    residue on his hands that he forgot to wipe off after the "huddle".
    
    
    JaKe
    

    re.459
    
    Saw,
    
    I am more of a reader than a writer, but this is my favorite note.
    Because some one in here says the most off the wall statements about
    football and his team and the real sad part is that he believes what he
    writes.
    
    
    Mike
    
     

Well, Mike, you done hit the nail right on the haid....

I guess we can start the Hal Watch....

What do you figure...around Thursday maybe?  

8^)

    Didja see the line on nexted weeks Wash foreSkins .vs. the Brown(spot)s
    game?????  USelessA Today lists it at 14 1/2!!!!
    
    When the 'Spots lose nexted week it'll be:
    
    "2-4 and Hal no more"
    
    But will we see those immortal words this week??????
    
    You know the ones:
    
    "Bernie should have a big day"
    
    hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
    
    There's only one big thing Bernice will get!!
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Team loss..   Way too many mental breakdowns..  and if Bernie's gonna 
    take the ball up the middle he better learn how to tuck it away.   
    Better try someone else doing play calling, too.   Predictable and 
    boring.  
    
    Mack looked good again.  The guy is money in the bank on 4th down
    and short.   
    
    Well, now we know the story for '91..  just competitive enough to
    loose.  
    
    /Jeff
    

    reply .462
    
    Saw,
    
    He MIGHT appear to defend himself before Thursday if not you are  right
    Thursday late PM at best. Friday by noon to predict a major upset
    against the Skins. Or maybe the Browns DOMINATE the Skins, no no no we
    played that one before.  Oh well I will have to wait and see.
    
    Mike
    

    re the Bernie bashers.
    
    Other than the fumble - which he made trying to make something out of
    nothing, Bernie had a fine day.  He was 16- 24 (66%) with ZERO
    interceptions and 1 touchdown.  Credit should go to the Jets defense
    for a fine game.  It really is a shame you guys can't get beyond this
    juvenile homophobic reaction to Bernie Kosar - especially since by all
    accounts he's straighter than an arrow.
    
    Kosar's fumble BTW, came when he scrabled for a first down to try to
    keep a drive alive....
    
    JD

    I'll echo what JD said about Kosar.  I had a chance to see him live
    against us earlier this year and I was impressed (of course, I'm
    impressed by every QB who plays against us but that's besides the
    point).  Kosar is an extremely intelligent person both on and off the
    field and going into this past week was the #2 ranked QB in the AFC
    behind Jim Kelly.  If I remember right, he has no interceptions so far
    this season.  That's 0, folks.  He looks like the most ungainly QB in
    the world - he's awkward and skinny, and throws sidearm - but he can
    sure get the job done.  I'd love to have him on the Patriots.
    
    2 other things I like about him - he graduated from college a year
    early while playing QB and showed a lot of loyalty to his home town, an
    area most people want to escape from, by maneuvering to make sure he
    got drafted by the Browns.
    
    John

    ANybody ever seen JD and Hal together?????????????
    
    
    many (8^)*'s
    
    JaKe

Actually, the one time I was in Cleveland, I rather liked the place.

The people were very friendly (something someone from typically "cold"
New England appreciates) and the babes downtown were snapping!

I wanted to get to that Bomber Squadron restaurant or whatever they
call it, but I never did get there.

I'd go back.


'Saw

    
    JD & JohnH, glad to hear some non-Browns fans sticking up for Bernie.  
    I never understood the beating he takes in here, either..  must be 
    jealousy (understandible coming from Steelers fans, though)
    
    I think some fault for Bernie fumbling the game away yesterday must rest on
    the Cleveland media.. my dad was echoing to me how the home town media
    is clammering that the Browns need a mobile quarterback to win..  2
    times yesterday I saw Bernie uncharacteristically run up the middle,
    coincidence?  I think not.  Bernie is more effective than 90% of the 
    QB's in the league staying in the pocket, and that's how he should
    continue to operate.  The O-line is starting to come together.. there
    were a few breakdowns in protection yesterday, but the Jet's front is 
    tough, and this is to be expected.   I'm just hoping that the play
    calling gets a little more diversified.. the offense lacks the punch 
    that it had in the late 80's under Infante.  
    
    The defense is playing well enough to expect a .500 season.  The
    question is will the offense get going in order to give this team a 
    shot at the playoffs.  
    
    /Jeff    
                                                               

    'Saw:
    
    Unlike some noter's comments about Pittsburgh, I have formulated my
    opinions about Clevescum firsthand.  I used to work for a 3rd party Co. 
    and had to go there once or twice a month for one to three days at a 
    time.   I also know an UNBIASED person who recently visited Clevescum
    and had nothing but bad to say.
    
>>New England appreciates) and the babes downtown were snapping!
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    They were snapping when I was there, too but it was nothing a couple
    hundred stitches and a series of rabies shots couldn't clear up for me.
    
    
    JaKe
    
    

      don't sugar coat it Jake,  tell how you really feel ;*

    
    	St. JD - defender of those men who wear dresses.
    
    	Many many smilies!  I also admire him for the reasons
    	Ninj mentioned........
    
    	Claybroon

    .463 JaKe
    
       Or how about "The Browns should have won this game."
    
       Hal watch --> t minus 3 days and counting
    
    
       :-) ^100
       
    						 glen j.

    re-.1
    especially if they lose 34-0.
    
    
    JaKe
    

I haven't done much Bernie bashing.  The truth be told, I always root
for Bernie over Elway.

The Browns are not a hellaciously bad football team.  They are a team
rebuilding (sort of) and are caught in that awkward in-between period.
They have a GOOD coach (and don't we miss him in Noo Yawk), and that
should show.

What I find highly objectionable, and what causes me to get all over
the Brown's case, is the totally unobjective rhetoric that takes
place in this note.

Oh yeah, 13-3, no 10-6, well maybe 8-8, but they've dominated the
Giants....  Shessh!!!!!


Give Belichick a year or two to work, toss in some good drafts (if the
front office helps him out) and Modell keeping his fingers outta the pie,
and you might see the Browns on top in a couple of years.


'Saw


PS  Jake, I still like Cleveland.  I've never been to Pittsburgh, but
    I've heard it's nice.....

    And the women WERE very hot, very hot, tsssssssssssssss.....

    
    > Give Belichick a year or two to work, toss in some good drafts (if the
    > front office helps him out)
    
    If Art would only unload Ernie Acorrsi (sp?) maybe the drafts will
    start to pan out.   Part of the Browns problem is their pathetic 
    use of recent drafts.  Metcalf, Tillman, Junkin (going back a few years),
    and more.   Bernie is not to BLAM, Ernie is.   
    
    /Jeff 

    
>>Give Belichick a year or two to work, toss in some good drafts (if the
    
What does beer have to do with the Brown(spot)s(tm)????
    
    >>front office helps him out) and Modell keeping his fingers outta the pie,
Right, and pigs will fly soon, too!!
    
    >>And the women WERE very hot, very hot, tsssssssssssssss.....

    They were running a fever, whilst in need of their weekly Penicillin
    dosages!
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    
    

    
    re.477
    
    What ever happened Junkin? 
    
    Mike
    

Cleveland traded Junkin for a 5th row draft choise to KC the year Marty
went to KC.  Since then I think KC has released Junkin and I think he is 
out of the NFL (not real sure the last part).  

A few more points on Ernie mistakes is Clifford Charleton another 1st round 
linebacker pick the following year after Junkin who I think is also out of the 
game.  Ernie also traded a 1st round pick to draft Tillman.  Ernie is the man 
Mr. Modell should be asking questions of.  

As for last week, a loss is always bad in the NFL and I can not take any thing
from the Jets, they played a good game.  

I still however saw some small positive signs Browns.  

1.  The Browns defense held the JETS to 76 rushing yards.  From what I read
    the JETS were one of the best rushing teams in the NFL before the game 
    last week.

2.  The Brwons had 106 yards rushing and the running game appeared to start
    working.  

As for next week against the Redskin's it will be very tough and the Brwons
will have to be a longshot to win it.  But no body thought the Pats would
peat the Oilers, so you never know.  I would say I think 14 points is alot
of points to give up if your going with the Redskins.  The Browns defense
seems to be playing better each week.  

In 1989 Clevland traded position and a 3 round pick to get Metcalf. 


Denver picked up Steve Atwater with the 14th pick overall. 

    Give Hal his due, at least he comes in here to take his licks once in a
    while.
    
    
    
    Where the hell is Gronowski ???
    
    Doc

Probablt writing a thank you note to Nick Lowery for kicking 900 thousand field
goals last night and leading his Flintstone Gamblers to a crushing defeat of the
Lumps of Flesh in div_b of FFL....

ugh...


I hate Nick Lowery....


Metz

    It's not Hal's fault that he hasn't replied in here.  Someone told
    Belichuck that his gag order had been breached by a DECie in the
    Notesfiles.  When Belichuck found out, he tracked down the culprit and
    slapped a gag on him.

    I noteiced in this week's ratings that the Browns have taken over for
    the Patriots in the category of least productive offense in the AFC (in
    terms of yardage).

But hey, Bernie will have a Big game this week.  

The Browns will go 10-6 and knock Houston out of the playoffs after
they finish dominating teams like the Giants, Eagles, Washington and
Dallas.

Belichick has a gag order on so no one can know his secret plans....


arf, arf

    
    
    Mac was that based on average or total?   The Browns have played one
    less game, remember.  
    
    /Jeff

    Jeff, I'm pretty sure it was total.  Give me a break, it was the first
    time all year us Pats fans could point to someone worse than us (other
    than Indy) ;^)

    
    
    But Bac, having 2 BIG wins we can all look down on Indy, Cincy and
    'Diego in the AFC alone..    
    
    

 Hey look you guys I spoke to Hal this morning actually he yelled to me in the
 hallway as he was between setting up the a Leitz station in the FAB area
 entering process monitoring reading on the his WS in his office, rushing to
 lobby to greet VIP's and turning on the grill in the cafeteria. I mean the
 man is just too damm busy but he did promise to try and sneak in sometime
 before friday....

 mike

    
    
>> Hey look you guys I spoke to Hal this morning actually he yelled to me in the
>> hallway as he was between setting up the a Leitz station in the FAB area
>> entering process monitoring reading on the his WS in his office, 
    
    Mike,
    
    In the future. please refrain from these run-on sentences.
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    WHERE IS GRONOWSKI !!!!!

      re-1  He's looking up the stats on the last time the spots have won
    an AFC champeenchip;^

    
    	Hey guys,
    		Sorry for not getting in here any sooner.  I did however
    read every one of the notes entered.  Jake, your just plain crazy...
    lets see what you have to say after Monday Nights spanking the
    squeelers receive (and probibly like) from the Giants.  If its a three
    point game, I'll be surprised....
    		Mike, thanks for telling the guys what I've been doing this
    week.  Its been hell around here.....I think Jake has come in here and
    jinked my install...so far this week, the system I'm responsible for
    has fallen through the floor twice!  So, I'm here today, taking my
    beating......don't really know why though...the Browns did play a great
    game and did come back to put a good scare into the Jets.  If only the
    Browns could come up with an offense in the first half.  Poor Bernie,
    the guy is trying to do everything.  I just can't blame him or even be
    mad at him for the fumble.  
    		Can't really say to much about the game though....I didn't 
    get to see it...dam NBC anyway.  Out in Athol, I couldn't even get WJAR
    off of cable.  Piss me off!!!  O well, I'll see this weeks game for
    sure.  It plays off of a Denver station.  I'm just going to have to put
    the bucks out and get that KU receiver.  Maybe youse guys could gety
    one for me on Christmas?  
    		I want to also give all you guys a thanks for sticking up
    for ole Bernie whilst I was buzy...  Bernie IS one of the best QB's in
    the league.  #6 in the NFL and #2 in the AFC.  Can't gripe too much.
    Now if he throws two or three INT'S every game...I'd say get read of 
    him too.  He's not that kind of guy though.
    		I'd say the Jets got out of Cleveland by the skin on their
    teeth.  What a team the Browns are.....injuries out the butt on defense
    but still able to keep the game close.  Its been a tough year allready
    for the Browns.  I don't know why they can't score in the first half
    but boy if they do...watch out.  
    
    	The Washington game this week.  The Browns getting 14 points???
    
    	No way, I'm glad I can get in here a make my prediction!  The 
    Browns will not only be the first team to score in JFK, RFK...whatever,
    they will win the game!  It will be another close game as all the games
    have been this year, but this time, the Browns will cause a big fumble
    deep in Washingtons teritory.  The fumbler...none other than Ernie
    Byner....  Boy, is it going to be a good game.  Lots closer than the
    spread indicates.
    
    	Later Dudes,
    
    		Dirty Dawg
    
    			Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrowl!!!!
    

    
    
    	It was closer than expected 42-17, should have been 56 or 63
    
    Cadzilla

    
    Hal,
    
    The Browns-Skins game was carried by local WBZ TV channel 4 out of
    Boston.  What the hail kind of system is Warner Cable that doesn't
    carry that?
    
    Dickstah
    

    
    Well, well, well..  They finally came up against a passing team and the 
    secondary injuries showed their ugly head.   The game was much closer
    than the score would indicate.. as anyone who watched the game would 
    (should) agree.  The Browns even looked for a while like they might 
    take this one, until the Skins rattled off 3 un-answered touchdowns. 
    
    Turning point was in the 3rd quarter when the Browns opted not to go for 
    it on 4th down at the Redskins 40.  Down by 4, they punted, and three 
    plays later the Redskins pushed the lead out to 11.  
    
    Now for some bitching.   If the Browns don't have a PROFESSIONAL
    officiating crew show up at one of their games soon, I'm gonna loose
    it.  I can't believe the calls, mostly in the secondary, that have gone 
    against the Browns in the last 2 weeks.  How is it that Redskin
    receivers can push off, yet, the Browns secondary can't make contact 
    when playing the ball.  Unbelievably one-sided officiating..  Browns: 
    11 penalties for 100+ yds, Redskins: No Penalties   YEA RIGHT!  
    I sure hope Modell is rip sh!t about this one (and the Jets game) and
    is letting the league know about it.   Not that it mattered in this
    one..  the defense let it get away, but a little consistency (and
    fairness) might go a long way.  
    
    /Jeff     

    As one who's neither a Browns nor a Redskins fan, I watched most of
    yesterday's game and have to agree with /Jeff about the officiating. 
    AWFUL!
    
    Had to like that "sleeper" play the Browns pulled for a TD, and then
    the on-sides kick attempt that followed...frankly I've been bored with
    the NFL this year, this was one of few games I actually enjoyed
    watching.
    
    
    py 

    
    	WHAT A RIP OFF GAME!!!!!!!
    
    I have to also agree with you Jeff about the officating in this game.
    The Browns played one hell of a game!  Give em credit!  I'm with them
    all the way!  Bernie is one heck of a guy.  Does anyone have his stats?
    
    I think the biggest mistake by the refs was the play at the end of the
    first half.....browns drive and fumble where the ball hits the pylon.
    That was crazy!  You figure the Browns get the TD.  I must have seen 10
    replays of this one.  The ball was out of bounds even before hitting
    the pylon.  PISS ME OFF!  
    
    Then what Jeff said about not going for it on 4th down in the 3rd
    quarter.  Now you figure if the play in the 2nd half would have been
    called right...the Browns would have been up at this point.  
    
    What happened to Kevin Mack in the 2nd half?  He must have gotten hurt.
    He ripped up the Redskins in the first half.  What was his stats for
    one half?  
    
    The Browns are due some respect!  
    
    The Refs blew this game!
    
    Bernie is great!
    
    	Dirty Dawg
    
    		

    I watched the game too.  Bad officiating, I must agree.  However, your
    choice to blame the officials in exchange for the inept team the Browns
    are fielding is somewhat comical.  Good teams overcome poor
    officiating.
    
    The Steelers nor the Browns are good teams.  Steelers got ripped off
    against Buffalo for two touchdowns, but you didn't see JaKe or me (et.
    al.) in here blaming the officials.  We pointed out the bad calls, but
    still are big enough boys to admit the Steelers are bad.  Meanwhile,
    the Browns get blown away yesterday and you guys are all screaming
    about the officiating as the main cause.  But I guess anything else
    would be inconsistent for Clevelanders.
    
    	--dan'l

       The Clemson Browns, gotta love 'em!!
                                  Denny

Yes, the officiating sucked (although not as bad as the bald-pated bozo
who did our game on Saturday), but the Browns were outplayed big time.

Washington is on a roll right now, helped by the fact they have a real
patsy schedule.

The one thing I did like was the suicide onside kick.  Except for one
bad bounce, the ball is back in the Brown's hands....


'Saw

    NEWS FLASH****NEWS FLASH******NEWS FLASH****
    
    Bill Belichick(sp?), coach of the Clevescum Brown(spot)s(tm) admitted
    today that the intent of his "Gag Order" was mis-understood.   Coach
    Bill admits that the order was not to silence anyone in the "Mistake by
    the Lake".  His intent was to make every fan of the 'Spots GAG whilst
    watching the games.  So far, the team is succeeding at the order.
    
    (8^)*
    
    Re --dan'l  I agree that both teams are f^%$@#$ lousy.  The Steelers
    are 3-2 BUT, and that's a plate stacker quality BUT, the Steelers 3
    wins have come against teams that are a combined 3-17!!!!  Tonites game
    will show what they're worth, although I look for the Gnats to
    prevail by 7-13 points.
    
    JaKe
    
    

    >                                     Not that it mattered in this
    >one..  the defense let it get away, but a little consistency (and
    >fairness) might go a long way.  
    
    Sorry -Dan'l, I for one didn't blame this game on the refs.  I too 
    consider myself to be an objective fan.  And I have to agree with you,
    the Steelers suck ;-).   
    
    The Browns victories have come against the Bengals (0-6) and the
    Patriots (2-4), so we're not exactly beating quality either.  Injuries 
    have been costly for the Browns.. the secondary has been decimated. 
    Yesterday Monk, last week Toon.. end of story.  
    
    I just hope Macks injury is not severe.. if they loose him they can
    pack it in for the rest of the year.  
    
    /Jeff 

    
    >>Yesterday Monk, last week Toon.. end of story.  
    
    
    And in a few weeks, Eric Green and Louis Lipps!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

I won't say the game was lost because of the two bad calls, however the fumble
at the end of the first half and the pass interference call on Braggs 
in the second half really hurt.  I think the Redskins clearly showed they were
a better team.  

The Browns lost two defensive starters in the Redskin game Rob Burnet (DE) and
Randy Hillard (CB).  I think Rob went out late in the second quarter and I Randy
Hillard also went out about the same time.  The Browns really cannot afford to
loss Burnett on the defensive line.  

I most take back, what I said about Jackson not catching the ball in traffic.  
He made a number of catches yesterday and they were all in traffic, so it looks 
like I jumped the gun on him.  I hope he keeps up the good work. 
 

      I watched some of this game,  and it looked like the browns D
    couldn't stop the Redskins offense.   I did see a couple of
    questionable calls,  but what game and teams doesn't that happen to
    every week?  Look at the Faider/seachickens game last night.  What 30+
    yellow flags thrown,  with some calls that aren't supposed to be
    reviewed were reviewed.
    
      The browns lost to a winning team which seems to be the team to beat
    in the NFC.
    
         Tim

I just read a report that Mack's injure in the Redskin's game may prevent him
from playing this Sunday.  Mack being out would really set the Brown's offense 
back.  Since the Browns appear to be going into the soft part of their schedule
it would be a blow if he was not available.   

I really hope that if Mack cann't play, the Browns give Hoard a shot to see 
what he can do.  Morris is not the big back the Browns will need and they may
as will see if Hoard is.  I don't think Hoard is as good as Mack, but perhaps 
he has matured since last season.

David

    BTW, FWIW - for those who constantly bash Bernie Kosar:
    
    He is right now the 2nd ranked QB in the AFC, behind Kelly and ahaid of
    Moon.  Bernie has yet to throw an interception.  His longest pass in 65
    yards for a TD (Moon's is 49 for no TD, FWIW).
    
    JD

    JD,
    
    ZOWIE!!!!!!!!!!That and $.75 can get ya a cup of coffee, maybe.
    (8^)*
    
    I guess by these stats I should change my loyalties and jump on the
    Bernie Bandwagon, huh!!  GAG, CHOKE, SPIT, PUKE!!!
    
    
    Looks like the Brown(spot)s(tm) won't get the Ockskar for best
    supporting cast, then, right???
    
    JaKe
    

>    ZOWIE!!!!!!!!!!That and $.75 can get ya a cup of coffee, maybe.
>    (8^)*
>    I guess by these stats I should change my loyalties and jump on the
>    Bernie Bandwagon, huh!!  GAG, CHOKE, SPIT, PUKE!!!
>    Looks like the Brown(spot)s(tm) won't get the Ockskar for best
>    supporting cast, then, right???
>    


No, but I'd go so far as to say that IF Bernie HAD a decent supporting
cast, that you'd see him be a Super Bowl caliber QB.

Wait a couple of years, and give Belichick time to do his stuff.
You might see an SB ring on Cleveland fingers before the year 2000.....


'Saw

    
>>You might see an SB ring on Cleveland fingers before the year 2000.....
    
    'Saw, you forgot the x-tra 0 on the end there.
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    Actually, I like what Bellichek is doing.  In a way, he's using the NY
    Giants mode of rebuilding - 'cept he had a little more to start with in
    the skill positions.
    
    For one thing, the Browns defense is #2 in the conference.  Before the
    Jints became perennial playoff hopefuls, they always had a decent
    defense.  Under Parcells and Belechek, they built the defense first,
    then built the offense.  Defense wins champeenships, boys.
    
    The offense is 3rd from last, however, only ahead 
    
    
    
    of indy and new england.
    
    JD

>    For one thing, the Browns defense is #2 in the conference.  Before the
>    Jints became perennial playoff hopefuls, they always had a decent
>    defense.  Under Parcells and Belechek, they built the defense first,
>    then built the offense.  Defense wins champeenships, boys.
>    

Did you ever notice that most of the cold weather teams tend to be
your "blue collar" teams -- grind it out, pass when ya need to, but
mostly run, run, run and defend extremely well?


>    The offense is 3rd from last, however, only ahead 

So JD, what do you do about the offense?  My guess is it's the line.
I mean, you've got Brian Brennan, who's your possession receiver
over the middle, and you've got some speed in #1.  RBs seem okay.

Whatta ya do if you're Belichick?

'Saw

>Whatta ya do if you're Belichick?
    
    Buy a house in Pittsburgh and commute to work.
    
    	--dan'l

    Saw -
    
    They have only rused for 501 yards, and Mack is out with an injury -
    he's leading the team with 264 yards.  Eric Metcalf is a bust, and
    little Joe aint the answer...
    
    but =- the o-line is new, and that's been the problem.  Belechik will
    work with the defense first, then the o=line.
    
    Having #1 pick Turner get hurt really set them back.  The secondary is
    aging and needs an overhaul.
    
    JD

    
    The early results indicate that  With Belichick at the helm the Browns
    are at least back to where they were  with Marty (in terms of head
    coaching skill).  I must admit I was dead wrong about Marty's game
    coaching, his performance with the Browns in his final days was more a
    matter of the age of the team than anything else.
    
    Marty was a poor draft decision maker, though.  The Browns are still
    paying for his mistakes.  
    
    So far I like what I see with Bill B.  He's resurrected the defense
    which has gone from worst last year to 2nd best this year.  This with 
    4/6 (now 5/6) of the starting secondary injured.  As mentioned prior
    the offense is coming around - give it time.  
    
    /Jeff

I don't know how much the NY Giants draft philosophy can be attributed
to Parcells and Belichick as opposed to George Young.

I do know that the Jints always take the BEST athlete available for their
#1 pick, and then go about grabbing what they think they need.  Thus,
if their loaded at guard, and the best athlete happens to be a guard,
they will take him for their #1 pick.


Belichick knows defense.  One of the Giants problems this year is that
Groh cannot react to different formations etc as swiftly as Bill B did, 
and thus we're having problems.


With Bill B at the helm, look for him to build that defense.  I'm no
prophet, but I'd expect to see it start with Linebacker, then patch up
the line, and the fill in the secondary.  Of course, if a stellar DB
happens along the way earlier, he'll be gravy.   For years it seemed the
Jints attitude was "a good pass rush that really pressures the QB means
that our mediocre DBs will only need to stay with the receiver for a 
second or two".

Then, he'll build a grind it out kind of an offense, because Cleveland is
a great type of city for one of those blue collar teams, but it will be
different than the Giants because he'll wanna pass too, what with Bernie
and guys like Jackson and Brennan, I think....


It certainly will be interesting, and like I said, I would not be surprised
to see a ring on their fingers before 2000.....


'Saw

 The Browns will win the SuperBowl 1 year after Modell either sells the team
 or passes away....

 mike

Why isn't Bill B using Metcalf on offense for the browns that same way that
Megget is being used for the Gints?

Metcalf certainly isn't a between the tackles runner but if you get him the 
ball in the open field he could be dangerous..not #1 pick dangerous but dangerous

Metz

    I gotta laugh about this stuff around superbowls and all that jazz
    
    1)	Macks injury won't make much difference to this team....  They
    	really can't get much worse.
    
    2) 	The `Spots will win a superbowl when you can eat more than 1/2 
    	pound of fish out of lake erie a month....   About the year 20000 !
    
    3) 	Bernice may be rated number 2 and may not have thrown any int's but
    	his team is in the cellar of the AFC, that shows you how much those
    	stats are worth don't it. (well, there almost in the cellar anyhow,
    	the tigers will finsh ahead of them even with an 0-7 start ;^)  )
    
    4) 	The `Spots made a huge mistake when they let Marty go.....  I still
    	think it was because of the Donks domination of the `Spots while
    	Marty was there.  Marty has taken the Happless Chiefs and turned
    	them into a contender......  How could have done the same at
    	Clevescum given the chance.... Art Model is a bum !!!
    
    5) 	The real reason the the `Spots will never be a contender for
    	anything but last place is because of their uniforms ......
    	When you go out on the field dressed like a turd you play like
    	crap !!!     ;^)
    
    
     Cant wait for the Donks V.s Clowns Game......   Then I'll really 	
    get on the soap box !!!
    
    
    Big Game

    I like that guys style of note a right BROWNSPOT basher.

    RE: .468 (from Jake)
    
    Has anyone seen Jake and a bowling pin together?

    
    Houston Oilers AFC Central Division Championship watch...  year
    1991 AD and counting.

    re.525
    
    Anybody ever seen the author of that note and a pile of freash horse
    manure together????
    
    I didn't think so!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    RE:523
    Why cann't you wait until the Donks play the Browns?  Do you feel the
    Donk's will not win any more games until they play the Browns?  I have
    not looked at their schedule but I didn't think it was that tough.  
    Remember last year the Donk's thought they would have an easy game at home
    against the Browns and got beat.  The same could happen this year!!!!
    
    RE:524
    I read a report that Sam is taking full responsibility for the Bengals
    losing.  He indicated he just is not smart enough and the other
    coaches must be out coaching him.  I guess it just took a season to
    see the effect of losing Bruce Coslet to the Jets.  Lets face it
    the only team worse then the Bengals are the Colts.  At least the
    Colts can point to all the injures on the offensive line, but the
    Bengals they just point out its OK to lose.  I guess I agree its
    OK with me for the Bengals lose.  With the talent the Bengals have 
    and being 0-6 something is wrong and it is not just a little bad luck.  
    
    
    Just kidding around
    David

   <<< Note 56.523 by QUASER::HUNTER "Air Force Football,Feel The Thunder" >>>
    
   4) 	The `Spots made a huge mistake when they let Marty go.....  I still
    	think it was because of the Donks domination of the `Spots while
    	Marty was there.  Marty has taken the Happless Chiefs and turned
    	them into a contender......  How could have done the same at
    	Clevescum given the chance.... Art Model is a bum !!!
    
    Hunter, Glad to see you're such a football exPert.  Marty still can't 
    beat the Donks even with his awesome Chiefs, who by the way, were up and
    coming in spite of Marty, not because of him.  FYI, the Browns haven't 
    lost to the Donks since Marty left.  HTH, and have a nice day.
    
    /Jeff  

Yesterdays Browns vs Chargers game must have been fun to watch.  When I 
saw the score's at the 3rd quarter and the Chargers were ahead 17 - 3 I 
was really concerned, but Bernie pulled the game out for them.  

From the stat's I saw in the paper Bernie had a number of big completions 
for 15 to 20 yards.  It also appears Mack and Hillard did not play yesterday.

Anybody have any news on Mack's and Hillards status for next week against 
the Steelers.  

    
    	I didn't get to see the game either.....dame NBC anyway!
    
    	But, I did get to see the post game locker room interviews.....
    Bernie had a heck of a game.  The coach gave Bernie the control of
    offense with 2:52 left in regulation.  Bernie got two TD's with it.
    Bernie said that he just called the plays on the line.  What a game
    this must have been to watch.  Jeff, did you end up going anyway???
    Lets here how the game went.
    	Bill Bellicheck said in the interview that he has to go on record
    again reguarding the officials.  There must have been some very bad
    calls again.  He just shook his head in discust.  Last week him and
    Art Model made a formal complaint to the NFL reguarding the calls in
    the Washington game.
    	Bernie once again threw no INT's and two TD's in the game.  He 
    broke a record in Cleveland with over 270 passes thrown without an
    interception.  
    	The defense intercepted twice and recovered one fumble.  
    	Yea!  The Browns needed this game and got it, on the road!
    
    	Looking forward to this comming Sunday's game against the
    Squeelers.  The Browns are actually favored in this game...first
    time all season, by 1 point.
    
    	Once again the Squeelers looked terible yesterday.  I guess you
    can't blame Bubble Butt.
    
    		Go CLEVELAND!
    
    	Dirty Dawg
    

    I saw the ESPN highlights.  Kosar made some great throws in the final
    stages to bring the Browns back.  That sidearm toss he has really puts
    velocity on the ball and he has some good receivers to latch on to
    those passes.
    
    Good comeback against a pretty bad San Diego team.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    Hal, I didn't go.. good thing too, cause I wouldn't have made it back 
    till pretty late.. I don't think the game finished till nearly 8:00.
    
    As it was, it must have been one hell of a game.. but I guess the only
    one who saw it was Charger_Central Glenn, and from the sound of it 
    he's probably too depressed to tell us all how great the Browns looked
    
    /Jeff
    

    
    NBC Showed the Browns/Steelers game as a 4:00 start, however, the 
    paper and my Browns sched. show the game as a 1:00 start.  Did NBC 
    go and get the game moved to have an all central double header?
    
    Anyone have the scoop?  
    
    /Jeff

    
    Thanks, Dan'l..  now if the Patsies just don't go and sell out...  

    
    	Jeff,
    
    		The Denver station I watched Houston/Miami game also
    	showed the Cleveland/Squeeler game being a 4:00 game and if
    	it is.....I should be able to pick it up.  I'll know for sure
    	on Thursday.
    
    		WOOF!

      The Denver station you watched?  Where are you living?
    
      It sounds like the spots pulled it out,  but still haven't beat a
    winning team.
    
    	Tim

    
     Boy one come from behind victory over a "Happless Charger Team" 
    and they come crawling outs the wood work !!!  ;^)  Can't wait
    til the Donk Vs. `Spots game....  Should be a Classic !
    
    Big Game

    
    	What do you mean, happless?  To be honest, the Chargers are lots
    better than their record shows them to be......the Jets, they too are
    lots better than their record shows and in fact, I believe they are at
    500 or better.  The Giants may not have a winning record right now but
    will by the end of the season.  Now, Washington, I think, does have a
    winning record.  
    	The Browns will get better, game by game, and a game like last week
    will surely help them gain confidence.  I believe they will let Bernie
    call more plays at the line this comming week.  The offense needs to 
    start getting points on the board in the first half though.  A big
    problem so far this year.  It's obvious they can do it with Bernie
    making the calls.
    	Kevin Mack will play this comming week.  He practiced last Friday 
    and even warmed up on Sunday but Bill B. would not let him play.
    	The Browns only converted on 1 3rd down play last week.....they
    need the running game.
    
    	Denver station......sorry, I was wrong, It was the Atlanta station.
    The Browns will be on this weekend Jeff.  Let me know if you want to 
    plan something.  Bring the family....and the beer.  
    
    	By the time Cleveland plays Denver, the Dawgs will rip them apart!
    
    	What about that game last night.......The Bangles look hopless. 
    May be a tough game in a couple..................
    
    	WOOF! WOOF! WOOF!
    
    		Dirty Dawg
    

>    	What do you mean, happless?  To be honest, the Chargers are lots
>    better than their record shows them to be......


ha ha.  hee hee.  haha heehee.

hahaha heehee hee.  hahahaha heeheeheehee....


hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

hyuk hyuk hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

heeheeheeheeheeheeheee



The Browns beat a hapless, utterly hapless Chargers team.  'Bout the
only way they're gonna get wins this season....

   
    > As it was, it must have been one hell of a game.. but I guess the only
    >one who saw it was Charger_Central Glenn, and from the sound of it 
    >he's probably too depressed to tell us all how great the Browns looked
    >
    >/Jeff
    
    How wrong you are oh Brownnie breath ;-)  
    
    Of course I watched the game.  It was on satellite K2, transponder 15.
    This game was a classic.  Chargers pulled out 3-0, Cleveland tied 3-3. 
    Chargers pull out 10-3 then 17-3.  Cleveland comes back 17-17. 
    Chargers pull out again 24-17.  Cleveland comes right back again 24-24. 
    Chargers go downfield and miss a 49 yd FG with :02 remaining.  Chargers
    move the ball with a 9 game starter QB, Cleveland responds with an
    experienced veteran.  No defense could stop the offenses in the 2nd
    half.
    Overtime...Chargers win toss...Cleveland stops them.  Cleveland gets
    ball Chargers stop them.  Chargers get ball and exCharger intercepts
    and goes in for winning td.  It was great.  Don Criqui and Bob Trumpy
    were astounded.  The way the game was played, it was like a Conference
    Championship game.  It was truly ALOT of fun.  Y'all need a satellite
    dish!
    
    Still Alive from Charger Central.......Glenn

    
    re: -1 Thanks for the summary Glenn, too bad I missed such an exciting 
    game.   At least I caught their victory over the Bengals.. That was a 
    good one too.  
    
    Now, which Pittsburgh team is gonna show up in Cleveland on Sunday? 
    Hopefully, the same one that played Seattle last weekend.  
    
    /Jeff

    
    
    Here you go Jeff.  This is what I got off the internet about the
    Browns/Charger game.
    
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.pro
Subject: Re: Bernie Kosar's Streak
Keywords: Bonehead Chargers Coaching Staff!!!!
Message-ID: <1991Oct21.170644.4076@cbfsb.att.com>
Date: 21 Oct 91 17:06:44 GMT
Lines: 32
    
    
Well Kosar was up to his old self in the second half, he shredded the
Chargers secondary. The Browns went to a hurry up style offense most of
the second half, this allowed Kosar to call his own plays and he was
truly impressive, I hope Belechick takes note, the Browns strength is
there receiver corps and they should use them more often! I would also
like to thank the Chargers coaching staff for there bonehead call late 
in the fourth quarter. The Chargers were on the Browns 28 with about
45 seconds left in the game, they were dead center in the middle of the
field so what do the Chargers call, a sweep!! The Browns sniffed the play
out and dropped the runner for no gain near the outside hash mark, the
Chargers were also called for holding, and it was a clearly holding,
which moved the ball back to the 39, the Chargers then had to run a play
to get the ball back to the center of the field. with about 4 seconds left
the Chargers tried a 49 yard field goal which they missed and sent the
game into overtime, the Browns eventually won on a interception return
for a touchdown. Folks, the Chargers should have won the game, if I was
a Charger fan I'd be outraged at the coaching staff.

    
     Good one `Saw....  
    
     The only way the Clowns are going to beat the Donks is if we start
    the third string instead of the second.....  The Clowns couldn't
    beat their way out of a wet paper bag let alone the killer confines
    of Pile-It-High stadium
    
    
    Big Game 

    
    
    Better check your schedule Hunter..  Donk-Browns is in Cleveland this 
    year.  
    
    /Jeff

 ought-oh Jack no home refs for the Donks. Could be disastrous.....

 you know who aka ykw

    Well, Well, Well,
    
     Guess  in my zeal to slam the Clowns I over looked the fact that 
    the Donks have to go to the mistake by the lake to thrash them. It
    really don't matter where the Donks meet up with the Clowns, they
    are sure to win.  The only way I can see a Clown victory in if we
    have another on of those famous battery/dog bone/beer bottle throwing
    escapades the classless fans of the worst dressed team in football 
    like to put on.  Personally,  I don't think it will even be close
    enough after the second quarter for the Clowns fans to be in it. 
    I predict the thrashing will be so bad the stadium will be empty by
    the end of the third quarter....
    
    
    Go Donks.....  Kill The Happless Clowns and Steal Bernice's Purse !!!
    
    
    Big Game

     Hey Mikey !!!!
    
    
     The Donks don't need no home Zebras to win this game against the
    `Spots.....  We all know when you dress like a turd you play like
    crap.  The Donks will thrash `em
    
    Big Game

    
    
    Anyone who believe Kosar is a lousy NFL QB has no clue... especially
    those people that claim Bubby Brister is superior!
    

Big Game,
	I am glad your so confident in your Donks, I don't think I would be.  
The reports I read on the KC/Donks game is the home town Zebras really were
the ones which stopped KC and handed the game to the Donks.  
	I read that the Donks final broke Bobby's hold out and he will have
lost something like $325,000 dollars from it.  You never know what will timed 
fumbles that kind of hard feeling could cause, not that Bobby would do that.

    re-1   Your source for the Denver/KC game doesn't know to much IMO. 
    The officiating stunk,  but all the reviewed plays were finally called
    correctly.  The refs helped KC on a trapping play that was ruled
    complete on the drive that they scored a FG.
    
       Tim

The article I read was in Mondays (21-Oct-91) USA Today.  I think the title
was something like "Review does not farther KC's cause".  It made it sound
like some of the calls that were reversed maybe should not have been, because
of camera angles.  

I did not see the game or any of the replays so I can't judge.  I guess it
would depend on which side of the fence your setting on.  

David

    
    I watched the game and the calls that were reversed should have been
    reversed. It took them awhile, they looked somewhat foolish in their
    execution, but eventually they got them right. There were also a couple
    of trap/reception plays (on both sides) that should have been reviewed
    but weren't. Sometimes the USA Today bits are written by beat writers
    for one of the two teams involved, so there may be an axe to grind.
    
    Dennis
    

     The Donks won the K.C. game fair and square !!!!  Once Again
    I can only say that I can't wait til the Donks Vs. Clowns game
    comes along !!
    
    Big Game

    
    re: .555
    
    
    Big Lame Hunter brings up an interesting point in .555 that leads me
    to ask one question, and make one statement.
    
    STATEMENT:  The Browns won the switched end zone game v.s. the
    donks fair and square!!!!!!
    
    QUESTION:   Have the Donks ever won and NFL Championship...
    
    
    ice is heating up....

       Has any Cleveland team won a meaningful game in Groaners lifetime?
                                           Denny

    Damn....  Denny Beat me to it but I got another on
    
    QUESTION: Have the `Spots ever won a meaningful game against the
    	      Donks....   HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA  !!!  I think Not !!!
    	      In Fact,  I think they choked hard in a few !!!
    
    EXTRA, EXTRA.....   Donks play ball after X-Mas....  Clowns Season
    			over by end of November !!!!   
    
    Big Game

    zzzzzzzzzzz, on and on, and on, guess i havent missed much in here
    
    when it comes to the browns and broncoes arguments.. and i use that
    word  loosely
    
    

@BROKENRECORD.COM    
    

    
    Well, dinz, don't waste an entire note on us, then.  
    

    
    Yeah, but this broken record sounds better than listening to
    some stiff like Eric Clapton signing beer commercials.

      So Gronowski doesn't like Clapton huh?   Your probably a 2 live crew
    groupie;^
    
       Tim
    
      P.s   Notice I will put my name in here.....

    
    Clapton - Layla, Crossroads = serious tunes... Clapton beer commercials
    equals sell-out no talent noise... the guy was born to play guitar not
    mellow brew commercials...
    
    BBD - now there's some talent...
    
    But what does this have to do with the subject of this note anyways?
    

    reg .561
    
    
    well actually its a entire line with good spelling :), i dont mind
    the browns  especially with Belicheck and morris and Rouson...
    
    Just wish the football  talk had more substance, next unseen is a idea
    though, let me think about it 
    
    dinz
    

    
    2 in a row dinz, no translation required.  
    
    Agreed on the substance issue, however, if you look back you'll realize 
    most of the garbage comes from the Donko fans.  Guess if you can't beat
    'em you gotta trash 'em.  
    
    Please keep off our bandwagon, though.  The dinz KOD is still a
    powerful weapon. 
    
    /Jeff 

     What Happened DiNz....  No fun talking trash when it so 
    closely resembles your favorite NFL team, Aye....??  
    
     Big Game

    Hey you guyz, shaddup!  This is supposed to be the week the Steelers
    fans and the Browns fans go at it.  You horseface fans will get your
    chance.
    
    Go Steelers!  Try not to lose to badly!  Yeah!
    
    	--dan'l

    I agree, --dan'l.  Just hope the Steelers aren't too much of an
    embarassment this week.  They sipped bigtime lasted week.
    
    JaKe
    

 Dan-l, Jake, get a grip on reality boys this is the Mistake by the Ocean (tm)
 the Steelers are playing. Bernie, Hal, Groner, and Jeff you remeber those 
 guys don't you?

 Steelers are due for a good one. Naturally the game will be ugly and mistake
 ridden but there will be mucho viscous hits and the Steelers will win 27-14...

 mike

    Thw whole lot of ya should be over in topic 124.

    Mike, thats a pretty brave prediction.....  With tose two high
    powered offenses on the field the score could look more like 
    last night baseball score   Clowns 2   Squeelers 3  HAAAAA!
    
    Big Game

    Just got the lock of the week from my local bookie, Franz the Toymaker:
    
    	Browns by 18!!!
    
    
    German Shephard

    franz better help santa get the toys ready for x-mas, this game
    
    will come down to a field goal..
    
    dinz
    

    
    Depends..  will the Browns score in the 1st half?   If they go into the 
    lockerroom with a lead, it's over.  Will Bernie be allowed to run the 
    no-huddle?   Will the Browns pressure O'Donnell?  
    
    Too many questions..  but I suspect the Browns will prevail.  By 10.  
    
    Browns 24-14.  
    
    /Jeff

    Squeelers by 7.....  Walton fired in public, sent packing back
    to NYC..... JoJ jailed for murder !!
    
    Big Game

    
    	Browns will win this one outright!
    
    	Bernie will control the offense on the line.  Bernie will have his
    biggest game of the season!  
    
    		Browns in a laugher....
    
    			35-0
    
    		Dirty Dawg