Conference 7.286::sports_91

    Well, the Pistons are doing ok, but not great.  I'm not worried yet,
    but they need to catch fire soon.  I think I read somewhere where
    they were graded as a B so far.  I'd go along with that.  You'd
    have to give Portland, Boston and Milwaukee bettter grades.
    
    -Walt

    Chirs Ford has a chance at becoming only the 4th rookie coach to manage
    an NBA all star team.

Magic Johnson will miss tonight's game against Seattle with a sprained finger.
He missed Sunday's win over Golden State as well.

Was there much comment in here about the Jerry West-Magic incident?   West
was quoted as saying that the Lakers problems this year have been due in 
part to Magic not being Magic.    

    In ohter injury news, I hear Larry won't be travelling to New York with
    the rest of the Celtics due to a bad back.

    For the few of you interested in the Phoenix Suns:  my cross-posting
    days are over.  Read AIADM::BOSTON_CELTICS for Suns info.
    
    Mike

    >                   -< Charlotte 101 Sacremento 59! >-
    
    Sacramento's 59 was the second lowest point total since the 24-second
    clock was introduced.
    
    
    py

SACRAMENTO (59) AT CHARLOTTE (101)

SACRAMENTO
                                               REBOUNDS
PLAYER           POS  MIN  FGM-FGA  FTM-FTA  OFF-DEF-TOT  AST  PF  ST  TO  PTS
======           ===  ===  =======  =======  ===========  ===  ==  ==  ==  ===

SIMMONS           F    26    2-6      2-5      3   2   5    1   4   0   3    6
TISDALE           F     8    1-4      1-2      1   0   1    1   0   0   1    3
CAUSWELL          C    17    0-4      1-2      2   3   5    0   2   0   0    1
MAYS              G    41    4-15     4-5      1   2   3    5   4   2   7   13
SPARROW           G    18    0-3      0-0      0   0   0    2   1   1   1    0
LES                    33    3-5      1-1      2   1   3    3   3   0   3    9
CARR                   36   10-21     1-1      5   6  11    0   4   1   4   21
BONNER                 25    1-9      0-0      2   4   6    0   1   1   1    2
WENNINGTON              6    0-0      0-0      0   0   0    0   1   0   0    0
LECKNER                10    0-1      0-2      0   0   0    0   1   0   1    0
CALLOWAY               11    1-4      2-2      0   3   3    0   2   0   0    4
SAMPSON                 9    0-2      0-0      0   2   2    0   1   0   1    0

TOTALS                240   22-74    12-20    16  23  39   12  24   5  22   59
                            (.297)   (.600)  TEAM REBS: 10

CHARLOTTE
                                               REBOUNDS
PLAYER           POS  MIN  FGM-FGA  FTM-FTA  OFF-DEF-TOT  AST  PF  ST  TO  PTS
======           ===  ===  =======  =======  ===========  ===  ==  ==  ==  ===

NEWMAN            F    28   11-14     6-8      1   2   3    0   3   4   3   29
REID              F    35    5-10     2-2      0   7   7    1   2   1   0   12
GMINSKI           C    28    6-9      2-2      3   7  10    1   1   1   1   14
BOGUES            G    25    0-0      4-4      0   3   3    6   1   0   2    4
CHAPMAN           G    29    1-9      0-0      1   3   4    5   1   1   2    2
GATTISON               17    3-4      3-4      0   3   3    0   2   1   1    9
TRIPUCKA               20    2-2      4-4      1   3   4    3   2   1   1    9
CURRY                  19    3-7      3-4      0   2   2    3   1   0   0    9
GILL                   23    4-11     1-2      2   2   4    6   1   1   4    9
KEYS                    9    1-3      0-0      0   2   2    1   0   2   0    2
SCHEFFLER               7    1-1      0-0      0   1   1    0   2   0   0    2

TOTALS                240   37-70    25-30     8  35  43   26  16  12  14  101
                            (.529)   (.833)  TEAM REBS: 6

   SACRAMENTO         12   15   20   12  -   59
   CHARLOTTE          22   25   26   28  -  101

BLOCKED SHOTS: SAC - SIMMONS, SAMPSON, CARR, LECKNER. CHA - KEYS 2,
GMINSKI, SCHEFFLER, CHAPMAN, TRIPUCKA. 
3-PT. FIELD GOALS: SAC 3-8 (.375), MAYS 1-5, LES 2-3. CHA 2-2 (1.000),
NEWMAN 1-1, TRIPUCKA 1-1.
TECHNICALS: CHA - CHAPMAN.
OFFICIALS: D GARRETSON, FINE, COSTABILE.
A - 23,901. 

    WHat's the story with Fleming if Indy Pacers? IS he hurt??
    
    REK

    Anyone know when Warriors' guard Saurunas Marciulionis is scheduled to
    be reactivated?
    
    
    py

    Big 3-way trade in the NBA yesterday.
    
    To Portland: Walter Davis (from Denver)
    
    To Denver: Greg "Cadillac" Anderson (from NJ), and NJ's #1 draft pick
    in either '92, '93, or '94.
    
    To NJ: Terry Mills (from Denver), and Drazen Petrovic (from Portland).
    
    NOTE:
    The Nuggets get the Nets' 1992 pick, unless it is pick 1 thru 12.  In
    that case, Denver gets NJ's No. 1 pick in '93, unless it is pick 1 thru
    7.  If that is the case, the Nuggets will get NJ's '94 pick, regardless
    of the positioning.
    
    Got it?
    
    Joe

	Another trade that may happen today:

	Knicks could send Charles Oakley, Mark Jackson, and Kenny Walker to
	Indiana      for  Chuck Person and Vern Fleming

	Also a rumor:

	Jarrod Mustaf to the Timberwoles for Toney? Campbell

	Jim M

    I was all set to watch the Celts/Pistons' game last night.  I had the
    tube tuned to TNT.  The pregame annoucer comes on, cut to commercial,
    then WHAMMO, scrambled!  ARGHHHH!  I thought nationally televised games
    would be protected from being blacked out by Sports Channel!  They
    can't black out this Sunday's telecast of the Laker game on CBS, can
    they?

    Where do you live Mac?  In Maynard, last nights game was NOT blackedout
    on TNT.  This is unusual though, as most of the home games in the past
    have been.  Because Cablevision owns SportsChannel, we get it as part
    of our extended package.  It is not charged as a "premium" channel.
    
    It was a relief to hear and see a different perspctive on the C's
    provided by Doug Collins.
    
    RTG

    I live in Worcester, RTG.  Greater Media Cable country.

    >I was all set to watch the Celts/Pistons' game last night.  I had the
    >tube tuned to TNT.  The pregame annoucer comes on, cut to commercial,
    >then WHAMMO, scrambled!  ARGHHHH!  I thought nationally televised games
    >would be protected from being blacked out by Sports Channel!  They
    >can't black out this Sunday's telecast of the Laker game on CBS, can
    >they?
    
    Coulda been worse for you...you could have SportsChannel.  Then you
    could have watched the game, but you would have had to endure Tommy
    Heinsohn's constant whining about the referee's.  Every game I've heard
    him, that's all he talks about - it's like having Mike Childs sitting
    next to you.
    
    Good college games and bad announcing made my decision easy (except for
    the premeir of 'Seinfeld', which I thought was hilarious).
    
    Dan

    Mikey, you gonna just sit there and let Schneid say those
    things about you??????

 Kev, I consider it a complement and good work on my part that I can get
 under Dan's skin enough to be mentioned in the same vein as Tommy. For the
 record it's a proven fact that of all the Greatest Team of All Time that
 the Celtics enjoy less of a homecourt advantage than anyone else. For Pete's
 sake Robert Parish moves his little toe and he's traveling but Magic Johnson
 can pick up his dribble at the three point line and complete a layup where
 someone blew him a kiss at the foul line and not only will the shot be good
 he'll be going to the charity strip for the bonus....


 Mac, I can watch either TNT or SPC when they conflict and I have GMC...
 you must be on the wrong side of worcester or something. blackout line is
 supposed to be 35 miles....

 for the record though I do listen to TNT instead because of the announcers.
 but also will watch college basketball instead....

 mike

>              <<< SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
>               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
>================================================================================
>Note 73.193                        Junk Notes                         193 of 196
>PNO::HEISER "Smaq Iraq"                               5 lines  25-JAN-1991 17:06
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Re: last two
>    
>    speaking of which, Isiah Thomas has been placed on IR.  He has to have
>    wrist surgery because he only has 30% movement in his wrist.  Rumor has
>    it that he's going blind too ;-)


An interesting side note to this.  It seems that Isiah will have the
surgery done at Hartford Hospital, in Hartford CT.  He was in sometime
very recently to consult with a doc there.

My brother works there in the OR, but he's not in ortho rotation right
now, so he probably won't work on the case.  I forget the Doc's name,
but my brother told me that the place was quite astir while Thomas
was there....

'Saw

    Dont be an Idiot, Thomas wouldnt recover in P-town, Magic would be too
    far away....:-)
    									MaB
    

    Don't look now, but the Nuggets have won 4 in a row and are out of the
    cellar.  In last night's win over Milwaukee, Del Harris came out on the
    floor to argue a call and got plowed over by Michael Adams.  Harris was
    immediately ejected from the game.  The Nuggets could very well make it
    5 in a row tomorrow night, because they host the Nets.
    
    Joe

The look on Adams face when he realized he ran into the coach was priceless.

He could teach a few of the big boys how to set a real NBA pick...


Metz

    Glad to see Kenny Battle doing well and getting PT in Denver!
    
    Mike

 >    Glad to see Kenny Battle doing well and getting PT in Denver!
   
    He played good the other night against the Jazz, and had a key
    steal followed by a jam at the end of the game to seal the victory. 
   
    
    Joe

    
    	Is it my imagination, or is the league applying a double-standard
    	in regards to the All Star game and who plays/stays at home and
    	nurses injuries?
    
    	Now, I'm a card carrying member of the Larry Bird Jihad, but it
    	doesn't seem fair to me that they let him sit out the all star
    	game but they are making Charles Barkley play.  Both guys are
    	recovering from injuries, played well in recent games, and want to 
    	sit out the All Star game.  Larry can.  Charles was threatened with
    	a fine.  What gives?  Maybe my information is incorrect?
    
    	Claybroon

    Well bird played one game and although he played ok hes not playing
    tonight at NY.  Barkley has been back for several games and is playing
    the game before and after the All-Start break.  Makes sense to me.
    								      MaB

    I don't know about Barkley, but Bird's been back exactly *one* game,
    and is sitting out tonight's game with the Knicks because the doctors
    want to see how his back responds to his first real physical activity 
    in over a month.  I'd say an exhibition like the All-Star game is out 
    of the question, but if the league wanted to push it Bird and the 
    Celtics would probably refuse anyway and accept whatever punishment 
    was forthcoming.  If Barkley and the Sixers feel they have equal
    justification, I'd say the ball's in their court and they have to deal
    with the league. 
    
    glenn
      

 I read yesterday that *both* Bird and Barkley could be excused from the
 All-Star Game if they didn't feel up to it physically.
 
 Didn't think there was a distinction made between the two of them by the
 league on this matter.
 
 Either way, it's disappointing to see either one sit out.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Barkley and Gene Shue (Sixers GM)both got telephone calls from Rod
    Thorn telling them that Barkley would be suspended if he did not play
    in the All Star game. Barkley is still favoring his ankle a bit and
    isn't playing the amount of minutes he normally plays. It's
    really pretty foolish to make a team risk the investment in a player
    just for a meaningless exhibition. From interviews with Barkley that
    I've heard or read, it seems the only reason he came back so soon was
    because the team was doing so poorly in his absense. This is also the
    second time the league has come down on Charles to play in the All Star
    game. Last season he had a pulled groin and wanted to use the All Star
    break to rest, but they wouldn't let him then either. Apparently the
    NBA feels that they play the regular season games to determine who
    plays in the All Star game, rather than for an NBA championship.
    
    Dennis
    

    By the way, Hersey Hawkins was named to the All Star team to take
    Bird's place. Hersey was to be in Charlotte anyway for the three point
    shooting contest.
    
    Dennis
    

 Barkley has to play because the Celtics/Red in particular says so right Dan?
 Doc? I mean all conspiracies in the league are the direct result of the evil
 Red? Right guys!!!

 JoJ pal when you read this enjoy it cause I'm think of you,...

 		CONGRATS TO DAVE COWENS AND NATE ARCHIBALD ON
		 THEIR HALL OF FAME NOMINATIONS!!!!!!!!!

	
   Celts now have what 21, 24, 28 players in there? Certain to have 30
   in the hall in our life times. The present frontline, Chris Ford as
   a former player/coach and if Worthy is a sho-in then in few years
   Reggie will be too....

 mike

    
    Nate Archibald played on the Celtics for what, one year at the end of
    his career?
    
    That's like saying that two star Cavalier guards are in the hall of
    fame... Walt Frazier and Lenny Wilkens.

    
    > Nate Archibald played on the Celtics for what, one year at the end of
    > his career?
    
    Four, including one year as starting point guard on a championship
    team.  Can't say I remember Walt or Lenny doing that for the Cavs...
    
    glenn
    

    I still cant see what the fuss is all about, fine if the league is
    making Barkley play then you may have a beef about that, but if barkley
    was still hurt he wouldnt have came back so soon or be playing the Mins
    he is.  Bird came back for 1 game and then went back to resting you can
    hardly compare the 2, very different cirumstances.  And who the hell 
    said hershey hawkins was getting birds starting position in the all
    star game, last night and this morning it was reported that King would
    start in place of bird, this may mean that hawkins now take kings spot
    Im not sure, can anyone give some Detail on this...Thanks.
    
    	BULLS Beat Detroit for 1st time in the palace..only 1/2 game back
    	but in terms of percentages are up .002 of a pt....???
    							Michael_Air_Brooks

>    hardly compare the 2, very different cirumstances.  And who the hell 
>    said hershey hawkins was getting birds starting position in the all
>    star game, last night and this morning it was reported that King would
>    start in place of bird, this may mean that hawkins now take kings spot
    Im not sure, can anyone give some Detail on this...Thanks.
    
	King takes Bird spot in starting lineup, Hawkins takes Birds roster
spot.

	Jim M

 Okay, Bird is allowed to sit out, fine.   Now Dominique Wilkins is out of
 the slam-dunk contest and is replaced by Blue Edwards.  And Jack Sikma
 begged off the three-point contest and Terry Porter replaced him.
    
 But Charles Barkley will be fined and/or suspended if he doesn't show.  
 Nice equal treatment policy you got there, David Stern.
    
 The only event this entire weekend that has not had an injury substitution
 is the old-timers legends classic.
    
 Go figure.
    
 Bob Hunt

    Dee Brown will be the first Celtic to ever enter the All Star slam dunk
    competition.

    Do the fans vote you into the SLam Dunk and 3-pt competition, or are
    you invited to attend the slam dunk and 3-pt comp.  Exactly how do they
    handle whos in these 2 events, and is it optional, can anybody do the
    slam dunk and 3-pt if they want too ??

    ...and the first Celtics to win it too.

>                <<< Note 6.42 by PNO::HEISER "altar of pain" >>>

>    ...and the first Celtics to win it too.
    
    Give Mike Heiser a couple of goldfish for picking the winner.  Dee
    Brown, winner of the 1991 slam dunk competition.  Craig Hodges won
    the 3 point shootout.  Charles Barkley took the MVP honors for the
    All-Star game with 17 points and 22 rebounds, 8 of them offensive, as
    the East won 116-114.
    
    					Steve

    Re: -1
    
    The TRUE Carnac of SPORTS!  I'll take my goldfish as part of the combo
    platter from the No Name restaurant ;-)

    According to NBC's "Insiders", Chuck Daly has the inside track as coach
    for the next US Olympic basketball team.

    Cotton said the same thing about Daly last month when he was on
    Cotton's show.

 Random thoughts from NBA All-Star Weekend in the Queen City of Charlotte,
 North Carolina ...
 
 I hope Magic Johnson stays young forever.  His enthusiasm, glee,
 playfulness, and friendliness is infectious.   I thought the smartest
 thing TNT did was give Magic a microphone during the slam-dunk
 competition.   Almost every dunk was punctuated with Magic reporting what
 the players' peanut gallery thought of the effort.  It made the event even
 more fun than it already is watching them whooping it up.
 
 Dee Brown was sensational and he had to be to beat Shawn Kemp.  I thought
 the best dunk of the night was the full-court, take-off-from-the-line,
 swan kick thunder slam by Kemp that finished off his ensemble.  And to
 hear Magic going "Oh my heavens ..." in shocked surprise on the sideline
 was great.  One of these years, Kemp will win this thang.
 
 But Brown was the story.  The pre-slam sneaker pump-up was brilliant.  It
 got the crowd into each of his slams and it made the judges score him a
 little higher each time.   Apparently, McHale gave him the idea for it. 
 Whatever, it was brilliant.    The final peek-a-boo slam was tremendous
 and it sent Magic and the boys into gleeful hysterics.
 
 Craig Hodges defended his three-point title by hitting *NINETEEN* shots in
 a row in the semi-finals.   He was in a trance, it seemed like. 
 Unbelievable shooting.   Look for Dennis Scott to do well in this event in
 the coming years.
 
 The game itself was Eastern Conference hoops with lots of banging and
 bodies flying.   Sir Charles hauled down 22 boards and took home the MVP
 trophy.  Commish David Stern thanked him for "volunteering" to play. 
 Dominique Wilkins missed on his trademark two-handed tomahawk slam and it
 sent the West bench led by Magic (who else?) into another round of
 hysterics.  What a great moment.
 
 Let me tell you, it felt *GREAT* to live in Charlotte this past weekend. 
 Sad to see it end.  Thank you to David Stern for believing in Charlotte a
 few years back when the expansion franchises were awarded.  NBA fans saw a
 city absolutely ga-ga over the NBA.
 
 To the NFL ... were you watching ???
 
 Bob Hunt

    re .38
    
    Actually Tiny's HoF numbers were rung up as a Cincinnati Royal/KC-Omaha
    King ...

 Yeah Doc but once you wear the green you're a Celtic for life and held in
 a higher esteem and deservedly so I'd say...hahahaa

 If they put one of his uniforms on display at the Hall, which team do you 
 think they'll hang?

 mike

    KC-Omaha of course ..... besides, they could use a jersey like that in
    there ...

    RE: All-Star Game
    
    Much agreed on Dennis Scott.  He will dominate the 3 point shoutout a
    few years from now.
    
    Rex Chapman is going to win the slamdunk contest before long.  If he
    hadn't missed on his second try in the semis, he might have beaten Kemp
    to get into the finals.  The judges scored him low on his replacement
    even though it was a spectacular move-the-overhead-cam-cause-I'm-throwing-
    it-high-and-then-coming-out-from-behind-the-basket-to-catch-it-on-the-
    bounce-and-reverse-jamming-it-through.  That took skill rather than the
    raw power that Brown and Kemp were displaying.
    
    	--dan'l

    And the West answered 'Nique's missed dunk with a missed dunk of their
    own.

    Re: Tiny
    
    The new SI (swimsuit issue) has an article on him and the charity work
    he's been doing in New York City.
    
    Mike

    
    I thought the NBA all star game was one of the worst in recent
    times.  The East (even though they won) missed a point guard.
    The pace of the game seemed totally out of sync.  I found myself
    changing the channel to watch the UNLV vs Arkansas game.  That
    lasted until UNLV started to blow them out.
    
    RE:  Isiah Thomas injury.  During the surgery on Isiah's wrist the
    doctor had to fuse three bones together.  People have said in the paper that
    with the type of surgery Isiah had there is a high probability of
    arthritis.  The doctor has told Isiah not to play for the rest of
    the year.  This includes the playoffs.  Isiah has been talking
    to Joe Dumars about a possible date he might return to action.  This
    date is in late April which is still during the regular season.
    
    I hope Chuck Daly  gets the coaching job of the U.S. olympic team.
    

    >I hope Chuck Daly  gets the coaching job of the U.S. olympic team.
    
    I hope not.  I'm sick of seeing his cranky face.  He and Bill FItch
    should have a crank-off.  And do you want to see a Thompson-like team?
    
    Actually, I'd like to see Magic coach the team.  Really would.
    
    Dan

>    I hope not.  I'm sick of seeing his cranky face.  He and Bill FItch
>    should have a crank-off.  And do you want to see a Thompson-like team?
    

Crank on!  Crank off!  CrankOnCrankOff...The Cranker!

I can just see Chuck Daly lying in bed with the lights on and the TV
on, cranking off....

hahahahahaha(tm)
'Saw

    Why Dan?  Because he wins?

    
    	Hello, John McLeod?  Whatever formula that you and the Knicks
    came up with yesterday, could you please bottle it up and use it 
    for each game? 
    
    	Best game the Knicks have had since game 5 last year vs. Boston.
    Just about everyone, including Jackson & Vandeweghe(sp?) contributed.
    About the only offense that Detroit had came from Vinnie Johnson.  As 
    good as Dumars is, they simply are not the same team without Isiah at 
    the point.
    
    						 glen j.
    
    

    Now if only seattle could walk out of Detroit tonight with a win
    it would make me a very happy fan...The Chicago Bulls are on TV today
    and it starts at friggin 3:30, the Boston Herald has them listed as
    a 3:30 tip off on channel 4.  The bulls are a mighty 1 1/2 up on the
    pistons, Id like to see that grow to about 10....Bulls are holding the
    4rth best record overall and are trying to make a run at boston, but
    who new that boston would win 7in a row including 4 west coast away
    games in a row.....?????  Id say boston is the hotest team right now
    maybe Dee Browns Dunk Win has sparked the team (or maybe its bird)...
    Either way boston's making a run and if they manage a win in Phoenix
    tomorow theyll be sitting at 40-12 with portland at 41-10 boston could
    possible pass them once again.  A good game tonight has to be the Utah
    San Antonio matchup, SA has lost 2 in a row and if utah wins tonight
    they will catch SA in the standings for top of the Midwest....
    
    							M_Air_Brooks

 Glen never you mind what happened to the Pistons' yesterday, what I'd
 like to know is what happened to the Lakers' friday nite? They were at
 home weren't they? They were all healthy weren't they? Celtics didn't
 have Mchale. Just imagine how bad it could have been. I know what happened
 they forgot to take Reggie Lewis out of the game by clocking him...

 ;^)

 mike

    Any Knicks fans have more info on the Ewing situation?  NBC reported
    that the Knicks may be interested in dealing Ewing because of his fat
    contract.  Dealing Ewing would give them much more room to maneuver
    under the salary cap.
    
    They also reported that Mark Jackson has been mouthing off about his
    playing time.

    I'm glad I didn't see the game Sunday.  Out getting Morganna's
    autograph at a card show (my bosom buddy) and watching Daytona
    crashes.   Dumars is hurt, hope they rest him even if it means
    losing another game or 2...
    
    -Walt
    

    re: .61
    
    	Injured or not, Dumars is not as effective a point guard as Isiah
    is.  Besides, I seem to remember Isiah torching LA for 40+ points
    on a badly sprained ankle in the finals 3 years ago, a game which LA 
    barely won.  I think something else was affecting his play Sunday; namely 
    the Knicks D.
    
    re: .62
    
    	So now we're even Mike.  Let's see who makes it to the Finals.  
    I know we'll beat Portland.  Think you guys can handle Jordan? :-)
    
    						 glen j.

>    	So now we're even Mike.  Let's see who makes it to the Finals.  
>    I know we'll beat Portland.  Think you guys can handle Jordan? :-)
    
    They'll have to get by San Antonio first to get to Portland.

 I think so Glenn. Jordan will get his but the lack of a quality center
 for the Bulls should be difference. Parish and McHale should be able to
 dominate inside. Bulls will need Pippen to be all world to win a 7 game
 series. I much more fear Zeke getting healthy and facing the Pistons.

 mike

    Mike, thats Pa-wish, and Inhale(tm). 
    
    HTH

Heard this morning that the Clippers sent Benoit Benjiman(?) to the
Seattle for Polynese and the 91 and 93 first round pick.  Polynese, Kemp, 
and Cage are really power forwards and this trade could really help
Seattle.  However, the two number #1 picks is a bit excessive.


                                                    Alan

The NBA trading deadline has passed. No last minute wheeling and dealing.
For the rest of the season, teams can onlyu sign a player off waivers or
if he's a free agent.

TTom

    re: .70
    
    Alan, for a discussion of the trade, see the Sonics note (#71).
    
    Basically, the two number one picks weren't theirs, they were the
    Phoenix picks they got for McDaniel.  I agree that the price paid
    was too high, but if the Sonics can sign Benjamin (they have a good
    chance due to salary cap limits on most other teams), the price will
    have been worth it.  But, if they don't sign him, this will go down
    as one of the most boneheaded trades in history.
    
    Pete

    Charles Smith, Boston Celtics reserve guard, was arrested this morning
    and charged with vehicular homocide in the hit and run death of 2
    Boston University coeds. He was also charged with DUI. In the car with
    him was the 7'2" center for the Georgetown Hoyas.
    
    

    No mention of this in here yet?  (I don't read the Celts notesfile)...
    
    Charles Smith (Celtic) was charged with vehicular homicide, leaving
    the scene of an accident and driving under the influence of alcohol
    this morning.  Two BU coeds were killed by a van allegedly driven
    by Smith.
    
    I'm real curious to see how the press handles this one.  Especially
    after Dee Brown.  I've already heard the fact that he went to
    Georgetown played up in the news.  I just hope the press would treat
    Smith the way they would treat any other Celtic, if you know what I
    mean...  If he did it, they should throw the book at him.
    
    -Walt

    OOh, Mutombo?  I hadn't heard that part... that's interesting... out
    partying huh?  Wonder where they went...

    
    	Because Charles Smith isn't a Celtic.  He was released by the C's
    a long time ago.
    
    								bill..g.
    

    He has been working under 10-day contracts ever since Dave Popson got
    put on the injured list.
    
    John

    
    And he played Wednesday night (3 minutes/4 points).
    
    

    Georgetown has another 7'2" center besides Matumbo.  He was a frosh
    (and a stiff) this season.
    
    Dan

    
    Yes it was Matumbo.

    Why would Smith (who's been out of school since last year) hang out
    with a frosh out driniking?

From: clarinews@clarinet.com (DAVID D. HASKELL)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Boston Celtic guard arrested in double fatal car accident
Date: 22 Mar 91 15:10:09 GMT
 
	BOSTON (UPI) -- Boston Celtics guard Charles Smith was arrested and
charged with drunken driving and vehicular homicide early Friday after
his van allegedly struck and killed two Boston University students
crossing a street, police said.
	Witnesses told police the van that hit the two young women slowed
down briefly and then drove off. 
	Police acting on information provided by witnesses and a taxi driver
who followed the vehicle stopped the van several blocks away and
arrested Smith.
	Police said the front end of his vehicle showed considerable damage.
	Smith offered no resistence and was cooperative, police said.
	Police spokesman Vin Loporchio said that officers saw a blue Dodge
Caravan with front end damage that ``fit the description'' of the
vehicle wanted for the hit-run accident.
	The van was traveling south on Massachusetts Avenue and was stopped
by police after it turned on to Boylston Street, he said.
	``The officers noted alcoholic beverage on his (the driver's) breath.
He was offered and agreed to take a field sobriety test. He walked a
line and recited the alphabet,'' Loporchio said. He said a few moments
later a witness came to the scene and positively identified the van as
being the same vehicle that struck the pedestrians.
	Loporchio said Smith was placed under arrest on two counts of motor
vehicle homicide, operating under the influence of alcohol, leaving the
scene of a personal injury accident, operating recklessly, and failure
to yield the right of way.
	Smith, 23, was taken to the Area D police station and faced
arraignment later Friday in Roxbury District Court.
	The incident occurred about 1:45 a.m. as the two students apparently
were trying to cross the busy street.
	Sgt. Frederick J. Conley said a ``witness stated he observed the
vehicle strike the two victims. Apparently it turned in the street (and)
made a complete 360. The operator slowed and then left the scene.''
	One woman was declared dead at the scene and the other was pronounced
dead at Beth Israel Hospital, police said. One was identified as An
Trinh, 21, a student from Placentia, Calif. The university identified
the second victim as Michelle L. Dartley, 20, of Ridgewood, N.J.
	Smith, a point guard with the Celtics, is a native of Washington, D.
C., where he attended All Saints High School. He starred in basketball
at Georgetown University, graduated in 1989 and played for the U.S.
Olympic basketball team.
	Smith, however, was not drafted out of college.
	The Celtics signed Smith as a free agent in September 1989 and he
played with the Celtics in 60 games last season. However, he was the
last player cut when the team came out of training camp last fall.
	When guard Brian Shaw came down with a sore ankle earlier this month,
the Celtics re-signed Smith to a 10-day contract, and then to a second
10-day contract that still has several days to run.
	Boston Celtics Coach Chris Ford said ``at this time I really don't
know all the details, but my thoughts and prayers are really going out
to the families of the two young girls. I haven't had the time yet to
talk to Charles.''

    
    	Shows you how much I've been following the NBA lately...I knew that
    Smith was signing 10 day contracts, but didn't know that he had signed 
    one with the C's.  Again, this shows how much interest the NBA
    generates with me, especially at this time of the year.  
    
    	Doc would be proud of me...I haven't watched the C's in at least
    2 weeks!
    
    	Also goes to show that we ref's do make mistakes.  At least this
    one was off the court though.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

    Yeah, but I'd rather have it on the court in this case...
    
    Pistons really miss Isiah's leadership.  Didn't see the game
    yesterday, but the drive and control just doesn't seem to be there.
    I hope they can keep the #3 East seed, but that's even up in the
    air...

    For today only the Milwaukee Bucks and Detroit Pistons are tied for the
    #3 and #4 playoff spots.  But tonight Detroit plays Denver and
    Milwaukee has to Play Utah so Detroit should regain the #3 spot for now
    I hope the Hold onto that #3 spot because Chicago is keeping the #1
    spot.  PHill is 3.5 behind detroit and Atlant 4 back.  With only 13-15
    games left in the regular season I dont see philly or atlanta catching
    them but you never know with the way theyve been playing that could go
    3-7 over the next 10.  Like to see detroit somehow end up in the #6
    spot but Id say its impossible for them to end up with anything less
    then 4rth at this point.
    							M_Air_Brooks

 I heard a quick blurp this morning that Barkley let fly with some
 misguided spitile projectiles at a_obnoxious fan only to catch a poor 
 unfortunate 8 year old girl. This being America naturally they plan to sue?

 mike

    Bark got suspened 1 game and a 10,000 dollar fine for his spiting.
    
    REK

Heard on the radio this morning about Barkley.


Some guy was heckling him, so he whips up a loogie and lets fly.
Only problem was that his aim is about as good as Saddam Hussein's, and
he winds up scudding a little girl.

So, now the NBA fines him $10K.  Barkley gets suspended for a game,
and because he makes 35K a game, it's gonna cost him 45K total, right?

So then, Barkley knows that the NBA take the fine money, and the money
he don't get paid, and gives it to charity.  So, Barkley decides to
call up the IRS.  He finds out that he can use that 45K as a tax
deduction....

Really somethin', eh?  I thought he used to be a nice guy????


'Saw

    
    Re: .90
    
    That's close. it was ast season that Barkley got the IRS ruling about
    fines being tax deductable.
    
    What he did was disgusting and not a smart move, but that guy who was
    yelling at him was pretty awful as well. With his 8 year old daughter
    sitting next to him, the dude was calling Charles a ni**er MF and other
    things not nearly as nice. As far as him actually spitting on the girl,
    according to a cameraman at the game on that end of the court, he says
    that Charles didn't get her, but got him. 
    
    I agree with the punishment that Charles got, but I think the league
    should come down on the Nets in a simularmanner as well. They need
    better security to ensure that no one in the arena has to be subjected
    to that kind of abuse.
    
    Dennis
    

    
    >                        -< that was one sick movie... >-
    
    Now I'll have to rent it for sure.
    
    Dickstah
    

    	Geez guys, he only spit on the kid.  I saw Grandpa Simpson use
    a loogie to slick back his hair last night so the stuff can't be
    toxic. 
    
    				/Don

The report I heard was that the girl was sitting next to the guy, but
he was not related.



Personally, I like loogies.  If snot is the original rubber cement,
as George Carlin has said, then loogie is like Elmer's Glue...


'Saw

    
    Barkley's been traded to the Atlanta Hocks!
    

    'Hawk -
    
    If'n it had been you and your daughter at the game, from knowing
    you and the reports here, I'd bet the incident would never 'a happened.
     You'd have clobbered the bum before it ever got to that point!
    
    A&W

    I am amazed that NOTHING is being said about punishing this bonehaided
    *fan*. This guy ought to be subjected to the same kind of exposure that
    Barkley is.
    
    In other words, interview the guy and ask him what he called Charles.
    Have some eye wintnesses on hand to either corroberate or dispute what
    the guy says. Let him face up to what he did, also.
    
    What Barkley did was inexcusable but hurling racial epithets is, to be,
    just as low and disgusting.
    
    Rich
    

    I saw the films.  The guy was out of his seat practically coming onto
    the court after Barkley.  Barkley spit and from what I saw the bulk of
    the precipitant went straight down.  Both the guy and the girl probably
    just got sprayed.
    
    Barkley deserved what he got, if not more, but if that guy has season
    tickets courtside they should be pulled.  I can't even see something
    like that happening at the Boston Garden (well, except maybe at a 
    Broons game).  Is this standard behavior at Jersey sporting events?
    
    glenn
     

The NBA's position is that if you pay your money for your seat, you
are entitled to say whatever you like.  Guess that's what
makes it FAN-tasket-ball...

Personally, I dont' like that kind of remark.  Tell the guy he's
a waste of skin, or he's a dog-it player, or whatever, but why 
mention his race.


On the other hand, what's the deal with Charles.  What is the
the damn LoogieMaster?  I mean, how mature.  If someone called
me a PropButted Stingey Old Scots bastard, I'm not gonna work
a loogie and goob on him.  

If Charles was that upset, he could have had security take care
of the guy.  Spitting on someone just makes you look like a
schmoe anyway.

In my opinion, both sides were....WRONG!


'Saw

    The best part about this is that Barkley was suspended for last night's
    game against the Hornets.  Charlotte wins, posting their best record
    ever (I think).
    
    	--dan'l

 Well at least one good thing came out of this ... Charles Barkley sat out
 last night's game here in Charlotte and the Hornets beat the Sixers,
 94-90, for their franchise record 21st win of the year.
    
 Bad news is the Hornets travel to Philly tonight for the second half of
 the home-and-home series with the Sixers.  Wonder if Sir Charles will be
 slightly motivated ???
 
 Bob Hunt

 Who the hell start this Hawk Admiration Society anyways? Man if Barkley
 looked menacingly at Hawk, that ole timer probably catch a quick case of
 Hurley Squirts...

 :^)

 then again any guy that won't wear dockers can't be all bad...

 and as the rest have said the guy ought to get some punishment as well...

 mike

    And being spat upon is not grounds for filing a lawsuit, either.
    
    John

    
    Where are all the Celtic bashers this morning?  C's blew a 17-point 4th
    quarter lead and lost to the Miami Warmed-overs lasted night.  Their
    first win over the C's since the dawn of time, I believe.
    
       Dickstah
    

> Who the hell start this Hawk Admiration Society anyways? Man if Barkley
> looked menacingly at Hawk, that ole timer probably catch a quick case of
> Hurley Squirts...

Must be my rugby protective type instincts coming out.

When I think of Hawk, I think "back".  I don't see Hawk as a lock
or flanker, and forwards, while inherently detesting backs, will
protect them.

So, if old WideBodyCharles loogied on Kwak, I just hunkered up
some loogie of my own and goob right back.

Gee, just thinking about it, it'd make great stuff for a

	NBA is (hoooukkkk)FAN-(toueeee)-tastic!

commercial.....


'Saw

    The only fault I see with what Barkley did is that he missed!
    
    Too bad he couldn't drop his drawers and sh*t on the jerk!
    
    I know, I know, these athletes are supposed to take it, because of all
    the bucks they get.  Well, sometimes a person has just had enough.  The
    proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.  Whatever.  
    
    If the insults were of a racial nature, as reported in here, that I,
    for one, applaud Charles for what he attempted to do.  After all, is he
    supposed to sell his pride, or just his basketball skills?
    
    lEe

    Geez, I can't believe I said something nice about a Sixer!
    
    lEe

    	Hey maybe the NBA can have some kind of spitting contest during
    the next All Star weekend.  They could have Hakaan Loob as a judge.
    
    				/Don

    What Barkley should have done, as would any even-tempered rational
    human being who could not stand the inexcusable taunting, is to have
    gone to someone in authority and have them stand in the vicinity.  If
    the guy started, he should then be disciplined in some way.  
    
    The NBA policy might be against such discipline because "the guy paid
    his money," but so did the people around him who probably weren't
    laughing...at least I hope they weren't.
    
    By discipline, I mean asking him to calm down the verbal abuse and, if
    he refuesed, escort him to another seat or out of the arena.  Then
    again, you have to wonder why the father/mother of the little girl
    didn't ask for the same?  Maybe they were enjoying it.
    
    	--dan'l

    Barkley had no comments for the press in reaction to his one-game
    suspension and $10,000 fine.  My inside sources tell me that he
    understood the suspension, but the fine was more than he expectorated.
    
    Dan

    >>First off, he is in the public eye, and can expect to get that sort
    >>of treatment at times.  I'm sure Jackie Robinson heard plenty worse,
    >>and he didn't spit on anyone that I've heard of.
    
    Frank, Jackie Robinson was selected not because he was the best African
    American ball player. He was chosen by Dodger management because of
    his temperment first, his athletic ability second. This is not to
    detract from his incredible ability and talents but this fact sometimes
    gets overlooked.
    
    Secondly, put yourself in Barkley's place. You are on the floor before
    over 14,000 whites. You don't mind being called a fat tub of lard 
    or a stiff - your paid for that crap. But when it starts getting nasty
    and references are made concerning your color, I think that stinks.
    After what happened in LA, should Barkley feel secure in the cops
    protecting him from a mindless bigot? 
    
    I don't know...the more I think about this incident, the more it
    sickens me.
    
    Rich
    

>    After what happened in LA, should Barkley feel secure in the cops
>    protecting him from a mindless bigot? 
    
    Get real.  What happened in LA has nothing to do with this and, as sick
    as it was, people should stop using it as the rallying cry around
    racism in this country.
    
    Second, Charles is well protected, I'm sure.  And, in my opinion,
    he's one man who can protect himself physically if I've ever seen one.
    
    Third, I'm sure spitting on a "mindless bigot" did nothing to help the
    situation if he did need protecting.
    
    Barkley is as much of an ass as the guy in the stands.
    
    	--dan'l

Okay, I'll give you Jackie Robinson...

I've already said that Charles shouldn't have had to take racial
abuse, but bottom line, does spitting on someone make you look
better than the person taunting you with racial slurs?

In my opinion, Barkley lowered himself to the level of the person
taunting him.  The fact that he hit that little girl is pretty 
poor too.  He could have at least apologized.


God, if everyone went around goobing loogies at everyone who said
something they didn't like....really!


Barkley had other avenues open to him, I'm sure.  He choses one of
the basest, lowest forms of retribution, which made him look subhuman.
(For the record, the putz getting on him was prettly low on the
evolutionary scale too)

What's next?  Is he gonna whip out his tube steak and urinate on 
someone?

    Cute Quawk, real cute....
    
    REK

 Typical liberal problem with the American justice system.   We have here
 two classic and clearly defined roles of attacker, the nutcase who was
 venting his racist spleen, and the victim, Charles Barkley.
 
 Barkley retaliates and the victim gets punished.   Loses a day's pay and a
 $10,000 fine.   Not to mention that we all think he's somehow sunk down to
 the creep's level by defending himself.  Meanwhile the creep fan goes home
 with nothing more than a dry cleaning bill to worry about.  
 
 How do we know that Charles Barkley didn't restrain himself from striking
 back with anything worse than spitting ???   
 
 Celebrities in this country have to be on their top guard at all times.
 Jodie Foster, Michael J Fox, David Letterman, Theresa Saldana, John
 Lennon, and Rebecca Schaeffer ...  They were all either harassed, hunted
 down, viciously attacked, or killed outright by people who took it upon
 themselves to hate them for their fame.    
 
 Barkley had every right to look out for himself.  Jackie Robinson
 performed a truly heroic deed back in those days.  But the 1940s and 50s
 are over.  Jim Crow is dead.   And we shouldn't expect our celebrities,
 especially famous minorities, to just keep endlessly turning their cheeks.  
 They might end up dead for it.
 
 If I were Charles Barkley, I'd have smacked that guy upside the head and
 then pressed criminal harassment charges against him.   Better than dead.
 
 Bob Hunt

    
    Has it actually been established that the guy used racial epithets?  I
    heard no mention of that on SportsCenter, or in today's paper.  I'm not
    doubting anyone, just want to make sure we aren't all picking up on
    something that wasn't there and are just running with it...
    
    glenn
    

    re .116
    
    No Dan'l, Barkley shouldn't have spit on the a**hole. Innocents are
    affected too.
              
    
    He should have let the guy come near him, then decked his stupid a--.
    
    Yeah, he'd gotten sued, but it's kinda hard to yell slurs with your jaw
    wired shut ....
    

    Have to know for sure if it was racist or not but the alleged jerk
    (innocent untill proven guilty) would deserve more if in fact his
    statements were racist.  But remember where they were and what the
    circumstances were...Even if barkley went to an authority weather it
    be a ref security guard or what not, nothing would have happend to this
    man.  Who knows maybe the security guard would have agreed, I dont know
    but a suspension and a fined coupled with that fact that the low lifes
    will proberbly sue id say this is quite ridiculous.  But if barkley had
    gone any futher hed be in alot more trouble then he is.  Im going to
    give him the benefit of the doubt and assume the alleged jerk off
    deserved what he got or worse and pray that nothing more comes of the
    incident...(and im not a barkley fan, but ive heard and seen what some
    Bigots, assH*#$# and jerks will do and say to get there kicks).
    
    								M_AIR_B

    
    Re: back a few
    
    As far as what was said and who reported it, I heard the basics ofd
    what was said to Barkley by at least two folks who were at the
    Swamplands arena and saw (and heard) the incident. They were on WIP
    radio here in Philadelphia and both stories were the same.
    
    As far as reporting the guy to the authorities, the NBA has no policy
    on fan disturbances, meaning that you can pretty much scream whatever
    nastiness you want at any player and the NBA thinks thats fine. I guess
    that's why it's FANtastic. I think the NBA needs to rework a bit of
    that policy.
    
    As far as Charles goes, he appears to be genuinely upset by what he did
    and won't talk about it. I can hardly wait for his radio show on Monday
    and hear what he says on that. I would have to think at least one
    caller would mention it.
    
    Dennis
    

    Geez, Saw.  I didn't realize that ALL people have the same level of
    restraint.  Tsk tsk, Charles, you should not react in a manner which is
    inconsistent with other black athletes.  Or is it other athletes,
    period?
    
    I suppose this is *much* worse than Ted Williams giving the finger to
    the fans at Fenway, right?  Give me a break.
    
    If Barkley did this as a reaction, so what?  On the other hand, if it
    was premeditated, then I would not defend him.  I doubt it was planned,
    tho.
    
    He's stated he's sorry about it, and I don't doubt his sincerety.
    
    More important, he may be lost for the season from yesterdays game.
    
    lEe

>    Geez, Saw.  I didn't realize that ALL people have the same level of
>    restraint.  Tsk tsk, Charles, you should not react in a manner which is
>    inconsistent with other black athletes.  Or is it other athletes,
>    period?

No they don't.  Charles proved that.

Since I've heard about this, I've tried to put myself in the same
position.  I tend to keep my cool through a LOT of stuff, but when
I go, I REALLY go.  If it were my I probably would have climbed into
the stands and beat the piss outta the guy.  At least I wouldn't
have got the little girl like that.
    
>    I suppose this is *much* worse than Ted Williams giving the finger to
>    the fans at Fenway, right?  Give me a break.

Next time I see you, I'll give YOU the choice.  You want me to spit on
you, or you want me to give you the finger...8^)

    
>    If Barkley did this as a reaction, so what?  On the other hand, if it
>    was premeditated, then I would not defend him.  I doubt it was planned,
>    tho.
>    
>    He's stated he's sorry about it, and I don't doubt his sincerety.

Does anyone know if he made an apology to the little girl?

    
>    More important, he may be lost for the season from yesterdays game.
    
Didn't hear about that...what happened?


'Saw

Heard that Hawk and I had to laugh. Wake up Patty, Charles is certainly
in the upper echlon. I can't think of any other Forward in the game I'd 
rather have. 'Nique, Bird, Malone, Worthy? You can keep em I'll take
Sir Charles...

Patty just like the a$$ sportswriter on the sportswriter show who said it
would hurt his MVP chances....

mike

    Barkley - torn medial collateral ligament - out at least two weeks.
    Will be re-examined today.
    
    NAZZ

    I saw the crack about MVP too mike, pretty silly...
    
    Didn't McHale go after someone a couple of years back?  What happened
    to him?  I don't recall...
    
    If this happened to say, Bird in Detroit, would the reaction from
    everyone be the same?
    
    I don't applaud Barkley for what he did, but if what's reported is true
    I think the punishment was justified, and appropriate.  No one should
    put up with that crap. Barkley said he aimed for the floor.  Who knows
    if he really meant to or not.  Dennis, did fans offer to help with the
    fine like they did when Toney clocked Ainge?
    
    -Walt

    SMall nit : Threatt clocked Ainge (but good !!!!!)

    re: last few
    
    I have just listened to the opening of the Charles Barkley show on WIP
    radio here in Philadelphia. Charles has talken to Lauren (the little
    girl) and everything is fine between him and her and her family. After
    looking at the tape several times, there is absolutely no way he was
    spitting into the crowd, he was spitting at the floor. Charles also
    talked to the league about the conduct of the fan and the NBA said that
    as long as a fan pays his $$$ he can do whatever (or say whatever) he
    wants. 
    
    As far as Charles' knee goes, it is a second degree sprain (slight
    tear). He said it will be two to three weeks until he's back.
    
    Regarding Pat Riley, what a slime. He talks to Charles for about an
    hour and then when Charles isn't around and cannot respond to it. Real
    low class. Very much like the Len Sawson slam at Andre Waters on HBO
    after a very nice piece by someone on HBO on Andre's good works. If you
    want to rip someone, why not do it in the context of the piece and not
    take the liberties after the fact.
    
    And Walt, I know of no fund to pay his fine. The response to him Firday
    night when he played in Phila. for the first time after the incident
    was mixed at best. I would relate that to a certain redneck element
    here. I heard Charles say he got some comments that if it were a black
    girl, he wouln't have spit. That person is simply a waste of skin.
    
    Dennis
     

    I think this could effect his MVP Votes, A person in the crowd got him
    going enough that he couldnt control himself, therefore getting
    suspended for 1 game (which they lost).  This could have been an
    important turn for the team, they wont catch Milwaukee without barkley
    but Now Atlanta may pass them.  I know this is more to do with his
    injury then the suspension but it could still cost the team.  
    								M_Air_B
    

    I have just started at DEC in Sydney Australia and am starved of up to
    date NBA news. Would ypu please keep me informed of all game scores,
    conference positions, injuries and rumours.
    
    Also, when will Isiah be back, Sir Charles, and who is hot.
    
    On the Sir Charles issue. In Sydney any fan who is considered to be
    behaving badly gets thrown out by the management of the stadium. This
    may also lead to a loss of season tickets. It is not up to the
    association but up to the management of the complex.
    
    
    Madge

>    Also, when will Isiah be back, Sir Charles, and who is hot.
    
Isiah's operation was done in Hartford Conn, at the hospital where
my brother works.  The place is really buzzing about the doctor saying
that he'd clear Isiah to play after nine weeks instead of the 13 weeks,
because the Piston's won't win without him.  Lots of pros and cons
on that call, lemme tell ya....


>    On the Sir Charles issue. In Sydney any fan who is considered to be
>    behaving badly gets thrown out by the management of the stadium. This
>    may also lead to a loss of season tickets. It is not up to the
>    association but up to the management of the complex.

Sounds right civilized...;^)

'Saw

Cedric (Cornbread) Maxwell went into the stands at Philadelphia after a fan 
hurled some racial slurs his way. (sound familier?).  During the 1981 
76'ers - Celtics playoffs.   Some people felt that incident turned the series
around.  Maxwell won the playoff MVP that year.

So,  here's my vote that Barkley should have just gone into the stands after
the guy.   At least he would have gotten to the person he wanted instead of 
innocent bystanders.  Obviously, he shouldn't have done anything once he 
grabbed him.  I think being held by an angry Charles Barkley is  pretty 
intimidating.    

I also think the stadium officals could have thrown the offender for 
disruptive behavior, the NBA has nothing to do with it.

		Bob 

    Now that you mention it, I recall the Maxwell incident from the
    playoffs, although I don't recall the racial slurs. Refresh my memory,
    how many games did he get suspended for and how big was his fine? :*)
    
    Dennis
    

    Also,
    
    Kevin McHale went into the stands against a fan once too.  The guy was
    giving McHale all types of crap. Not sure what penalty McHale got, but
    I *know* he didn't get the fine Charles did.
    
    JD

	As usual JD has all the facts distorted about the Kevin McHale 
incident.  It happened in Milwaukee during the 1987 playoffs 2nd round.  In 
one of the games in Milwaukee during a timeout Kevin noticed that one of 
the patrons had a stain on his tie.  Not wanting said patron to be 
embarrased later Kevin pointed out to him that he had a stain on his tie.  
The patron inquired "where?" and Kevin placed the tie, ever so gently, in his 
hands and said "right there!".  Of course the press blew the non-incident 
all out of proportion.

				/Don

       Thanx for clearing that up Slasher, as usual you're 100% accurate.
    Why Kevin actually readjusted the guys tie after he showed him the
    spot.
                                                 Denny                 

From the USA Today, in an article about Magic Johnson who's 30 something
behind the Big O for the career assist record:

	"An assist is a rather simple NBA statistic. You get one if
	your pass leads directly to a teammate's basket."

If it's so simple, how come Nazz gets Bob Ryaned about Larry's
assists? ;-)

TTom

    Because Bob ryan is a weenie.
    
    NAZZ

    
    The three guard rotation of the Pistons are clicking on all cylinders
    in preparation for the playoffs.  Thomas, Dumars, and V. Johnson
    combine for 66 points as the Pistons beat the Celtics 118 - 90.
    
    Pistons led at the half 73 - 50.  Last 3 games Pistons beat the Bulls,
    lose to the Pacers and beat the Celtics.  I think that the Pistons want
    to send a message to the Bulls and the Celtics that the road to the
    championship still has to go through Detroit.
    
    Games remaining -  AT Atlanta Friday, AT Chicago Sunday.
    
    \pjb
    

    When Bird's not in the game, it's apparent that the Celtics don't have
    a good point guard.  Not that Shaw's not good at some things, but
    running a team's offense isn't one of them.
    
    Dan

Speaking of Bird,  I really enjoyed the SI article on Bird and Magic.
It's interesting to see the friendship that has grown up between the two
guys.  

Regardless of how you feel about either, they certainly have done a lot
for basketball.....

'Saw

    	SEATTLE (UPI) -- San Antonio Spurs guard Rod Strickland has had an
    indecent exposure complaint filed against him by a woman following an
    incident in a Seattle hotel, a King County official said Wednesday.
    	Dan Donahoe, spokesman for the King County prosecutor, said his
    office would decide Thursday or Friday whether to file misdemeanor
    charges against Strickland. Maximum penalty for the charge is 90 days
    in
    jail and a $1,000 fine.
    	Donahoe said the incident occurred at 1 a.m. Friday, April 12 at
    the
    Stouffer-Madison Hotel, where the Spurs were staying prior to playing a
    game against the Seattle SuperSonics.
    	``The alleged victim said she was walking down the hall outside her
    room when Strickland and another person made comments to her,'' Donahoe
    said. ``When the woman turned around to ask the two men to leave her
    alone, Strickland, who was wearing only a towel, allegedly removed the
    towel. The complaint claims he did that twice.''
    	Donahoe said the 29-year-old woman was staying at the hotel on a
    business trip.
    	Strickland, 24, was a 1988 first-round draft choice out of DePaul
    by
    the New York Knicks, who traded him to the Spurs in February 1990 for
    Mlaurice cheeks. Strickland is averaging 13.8 points per game this
    season.

The Spurs have got to be questioning the continued value of Strickland.
First he breaks his had in a fight at a bar. Now this. Not saying he's
guilty just because he's been charged it's just that now is the time for
him to show that he's "got his mind right" and concentrate on the rest of
the season and the playoffs.

Didn't Strickland have some troubles at DePaul, also?

TTom

 Seems to me TTom that he certainly did. I thought that he lost a 1/2
 year of playing time due to sporadic grades due to drugs if I'm not
 mistaken. Cost him an All_American spot at the end of the year I think.

 mike

    	Shouldn't be all that surprising.  Strickland has the reputation
    of being a good "ball handler".
    
    				/Don

    Re:152, you forgot Dino Ciccirrla (SP) Hockey Player...
    
    REK

   He probably thought she was a reporter.

   Mike JN

    Ha ha ha, nice one, Mike!!!111  :*)  :*)
    
    lEe

Nipsy Russel aint got nuthin' on you /Don!!

HA HA HA!!! 

/Don NBA poet extrodinaire!




Steve

    
    
    East
    ----
    Chicago over New York 3-0         
    Milwaukee over Philadelphia 3-2 
    
    Detroit over Atlanta 3-0         
    Boston over Indiana 3-1
    
    
    West
    ----
    
    Portland over Seattle 3-1
    Phoenix over Utah 3-2
    
    LAKERS over Houston 3-1
    San Antonio over Golden State 3-2
    
    						 glen j.
                                      

    Chicago in 4              	Detroit in 4
    Philly in 5                 Boston in 5 (OT in game 4 to stay alive)
    
    Portland in 3		Houston in 5
    Utah in 4			San Antonio in 4

    East
    ----
    Chicago over New York 3-0         
    Philly over Milwaukee 3-2    Chicago over Philly 4-2
                                                        Boston over Bulls 4-3
    Detroit over Atlanta 3-2     Boston over Detroit 4-3
    Boston over Indiana 3-1
    
    
    West
    ----
    Portland over Seattle 3-2
    Phoenix over Utah 3-1      Phoenix over Portland 4-2
                                                   Phoenix over LA 4-2
    Lakers over Houston 3-2
    SA over GS 3-2             LA over SA 4-2
    

    	Byron Scott's theme song.  Tiiiime is on mah side, yes it IS...

    Slasher, I didn't see the game, what happened ?

    Did Byron Scott go to CLEMSON by any chance????????
    
    Quick recap:  Lakers up 1, 28.5 seconds left.  They fiddle around, shot
    clock winds down.  Scott finally shoots and hits, but Madden waves it
    off, calling for a 24 sec. viol., but the two CLEMSON refs overrule
    him, and them have the nerve to try to give him 3 points for an 18
    footer!!!  He gets two points, clock doesn't shcnge (it shows 3.4
    seconds, so 25.1 seconds elapsed).  Replay shows Scott definitely took
    the shot after the buzzer.  Houston throws inbounds pass away, game
    over. 
    
    NAZZ

    
      Yeah, what happened???...
    
      I caught the 10pm sports broadcast when the score was 73-66.
    Then I stopped by Old Chicago's to see the highlights and I noticed
    the 94-92 final.  Another great coaching job by Dungheavy(tm) I 
    figured. :(
    
    
      						 glen j.	

    
      Thanks Nazz.
    
      Still sounds like LA was in control earlier in the game, only 
    to almost lose it at the end.  
    
      Can't believe Byron played a part in a victory for a change.
    
    						 glen j.

    
    re:    .164 (NAZZ)
    
    True, there was 28.5 on the game clock. TNT got a replay with the
    shot clock from PrimeTicket, which showed the clock went to 0 with
    the ball still touching Byron's hand. The shot was a high-archer
    that easily took 1.1 to make it through the hoop, and get the clock
    stopped with 3.4 left for You-ston. Even Chick (who normally calls
    these things straight) said that the call go have gone either way.
    The 2 refs (who overruled) said later on that though the shot clock 
    struck 0, the horn/light did not come on until the ball had left 
    Scott's hand.
    
    FWIW - Lakers are up 1-0, Game 2 Saturday on NBC (2nd game).
    
    - The Doctor (C.P.)

 The friggen red light didn't even come on until the ball swished through
 the hoop kind of reminded me of 10 seconds lost in the Red Wings/Blues
 game last week....bad call #2 offensive goal tending on Hakeem that
 clearly wasn't....bad call number #3 three Lakers sandwich Maxwell
 and knock the ball away. Magic graps the ball takes five steps and
 so naturally Maxwell had to have fouled him because magic would never
 ever travel....

 mike
 

	NBC wants a Chicago/Los Angeles finals and the NBA is going to do 
their best to accomodate them.

    re: Last Few
    
    I think it was a very close call. It was tough to make that call even
    in slow motion. The ref may have made a mistake, so what ? Bird always
    plays illegal defense, McHale takes 1001 steps with his twist and turn
    move in the low post, they never get called. Stop crying.
    
    -- Ram Nori 

    	Ram, the referee made the *right* call and was overruled by
    the two "NBC referees".

re: .169

You know Slasher, you raise an interesting point.  

Throughout the eighties, it seemed that the not only did the glamor teams make
it to the finals, but most of the time the finals, and in fact even the more 
exciting earlier round games would be decided on Sunday afternoons, when the 
network audiences were at their highest, and the network wouldn't have to pre-
empt weeknight schedules.  This seemed true even is it wasn't the seventh game.

I distinctly remeber noting this at the time, but of course don't have the info 
at my fingertips.  I'll try to find a source for it.

=Bob=

Ram, What the hell does this have to do with Bird or McHale?
The ref's blew the call plain and simple. It was there on tv
for all the world to see. Why didn't the buzzer go off when the 
24 second clock tick down to zero? Isn't there suppossed to be 
a buzzer? Wierd, isn't it? 


Steve

    
    Results from yesterdays action.
    
    Pacers vs Celtics  Pacers win 130 - 118.  Pacers were making everything
    they threw up at the net.  Chuck Person hit 7 3-pointers in a row.
    Series 1 - 1.
    
    
    Bulls vs Knicks   Bulls win 89 - 79.  At least NY showed up for this
    game.
    Bulls lead series 2 - 0.
    
    Pistons vs Hawks  Pistons win 101 - 88.  Pistons showed up for this
    game not like Friday nights debacle.
    Series 1 - 1.
    
    Blazers vs. Sonics  Blazers win 116 - 109 I think. 
    Blazers lead series 2 - 0.
    
    \pjb

Hawk, FWIW, most of us Laker faithful think Dunleavy is a geek
and a weasel.  

BTW, the Lakers trashed the Rockettes Saturday, 109-98, with
Vlade Divac schooling Akeem.  S'pose the Clemson refs were to
blame for this one as well.

Laker_Ken

    You cant fight city hall...And you shouldnt complain about refereeing.
    SO the lakers got a break...A HUGE FRIGGIN BREAK that handed them a W
    in waht was so obviously going to be a L.  Well paybacks a bitch, this
    is a first round matchup and even if Houston was 1-1 (Which they should
    be) they would have lost in 5 anyway.  But now the basketball gods have
    giving the lakers a game and somewhere along the line theyll take one
    away.  Maybe against portland or who knows maybe against chicago, but
    I just hope that sometime during the playoffs that 2 wrongs make a
    right and the refs hand an L to the lakers in a should have been W.
    Oh well back to the races...What a bummer no games on tonight. 
    								M_Air_B

    Mike, the refs will NEVER allow the Lakers to lose, esp. as long as
    Whiner Johnson is on the team.  Every time he goes to the basket he
    gets "fouled" even when he is all alone.  And the free travelling
    calls, he travels more than Sununu.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

    
    >    calls, he travels more than Sununu.
    
    That's not much. Sununu flies more than  Jordon.
    
    BTW, no team gets more breaks than the Celtics. If they don't get
    breaks Red will chase the refs into locker room and yell obscenities at
    the refs.  What can anybody do if they loose despite the refs helping
    them to win ? :-)
    
    -- Ram Nori

Re. 

 >   SO the lakers got a break...A HUGE FRIGGIN BREAK that handed 
 >   them a W in waht was so obviously going to be a L.

And just why is it that Houston was obviously going to win the
game if the refs had disallowed Scott's shot?  The Lakers would
still have been up by 1, and Houston hasn't exactly shown a lot
of poise when it comes to end of the game pressure situations.
When they did get the ball back, they through it out of bounds
on the inbounds pass.

>And just why is it that Houston was obviously going to win the
>game if the refs had disallowed Scott's shot?  The Lakers would
>still have been up by 1, and Houston hasn't exactly shown a lot
>of poise when it comes to end of the game pressure situations.
>When they did get the ball back, they through it out of bounds
>on the inbounds pass.

 because that's the way we want it to be!!!!!!!!!
 
 and yes Ram the Celtics have gotten more than their share of calls
 over the years but they still trail the Lakers by a large margin
 in that department....

 for every travel McHale gets Worthy get two...

 and Magic is always playing man to man hahahaa

 

The Bulls, 76'ers, and Lakers used brooms for there series. 
the Trailblazers got stupid and lost 1, Jazz proved to Phoenix that time is 
running out.


Lakers 3 Houston 0
Bulls  3 Knicks  0
76'ers 3 Bucks   0
Jazz   2 Sun's   1 
Blazer 2 Sonics  1 
Pacers 1 Celtics 1
Piston 2 Hawks   1 



Jeff

Jeff,

You'd better watch them apostrophes...

TTom

    
    Celtics beat the Pacers last night and Golden State beat
    San Antonio.
    
    Pistons will be removing the Hawks from this years playoffs
    tonight.  Pistons looked terrible in the first half on Tuesday
    night.  At one point they were down by 17 and end up winning the
    game by 12.
    
    \pjb

    GO WARRIORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 Well Detriot(tm) didn't eliminate the Hawks last night as Doc Rivers and
 the Lakers' refs help the boys from Atlanta hold off the Pistons. I guess
 the Lakers and their obviously brain dead fanatical fans actually think
 they have a chance at this thing if the Pistons aren't there so they sent
 their personal refs to Atlanta last night. I don't have the exact figures
 with me but at one point the Hawks had been the line 43 times to the Pistons
 22 times. True the Hawks were agressive at taking it down the lane and 
 creating some contact but so weren't the Pistons and of course the most 
 protect player in the game MM just knocked the hell out anybody who came near
 him without anything. Hero for the Hawks despite Doc Rivers' game was Sir
 Sidney Moncrief! He hit every clutch basket the team need down the stretch
 when the Pistons were trying to make a run for it....

 Speaking of Sidney it sures seems to me that he was every bit the defensive
 player that the Worm is yet last night they were touting "The Worm" as the
 best defensive player since Russell??? uhm I'll give Dennis his due but
 a young Kareem or certainly Wilt after Russell retired would have to be
 considered along with Michael, Dennis Johnson, Cedric Maxwel and a few others.

 oh and of course how can I forget Magic Johnson. I mean he did play defense
 once against Karl Malone so he must be an awesome defensive player also...

 another name to consider Michael Cooper.....

 mike 

    
    The scores last night....
    
    Atlanta 123-111 over the Pistons, game 5 Sunday at Detroit...
    Seattle 101-89 over the projected 1990-1991 NBA Champs, game 5 Saturdat
    in Portland 12:30 PDT time.
    Utah elimanated the Suns 101-93... Suns 1-28 when scoring less that 100
    points.
    
    REK

    Holy Shit...Are those scores for real..Seattle has a chance now to
    knock Portland out of it...Phoenix makes an early departure. This is
    getting intense.  Underdogs victories so far are Philly and Utah and
    tonight GS could knock out San Antonio.  Makes for some intresting 2nd
    round matchups.  As far as the Laker Refs being in atlanta last night
    The Hawks hit on 44-51 free throw attempts.  At least 20 of these free
    throw attempts came from the princess and others being in a pissy mode.
    They were grapping, gropping, tripping, stripping, swinging and jumping
    all over every hawk on the floor.  I watched the game and for the most
    part the refereeing wass pretty even.  Atlanta was driving down the 
    lane and when Detroit was mauling them the first time they would maul
    them after atlanta pulled down the Offensive bound.  Atlanta played a
    great game of self control and desipline considering they could have
    been eliminated.  I see this series as a toss up, if atlanta can keep 
    there composure theyll be traveling to the next round.  This was a 
    great game to watch, moses and sydney moncreif were awsome.  Doc rivers
    played great as well.  I cant wait to see the box scores from this one.
    There were also several T's on the Ex-Champions becasue they were
    crying up a storm.  The difference in the outcome of sundays game will
    be if Detroits Refs let detroit man handle and maul atlanta without
    calling the penalties. ?????
    							M_Air_B

McLeod did the ND thang yesterday (I'm sure there will be considerable discussion 
of this in other notes).

Leading candidates for the Knick job are Pat Riley and Mike Fratello.  I hope 
Riley takes it and fails miserably.  Then people will realize he's not "one
of the all time great coaches" that he is billed to be.

=Bob= who-admits-to-hating-Riley-partially-for-his-physical-appearance

 Has Doug Collins made an official statement that he won't coach again? I can't
 say I blame him but if he hasn't one has to wonder why he isn't at the top of
 a lot of these lists...

    	Why don't the Knicks do like Notre Dame and hire someone who
    just lost their job.  Like Ron Rothstein.
    
    				/Don

>    Utah elimanated the Suns 101-93... Suns 1-28 when scoring less that 100
>    points.
    
    ...but that 1 win was against the Lakers ;-)

    Actually, I read it wrong.. It was the 3 years that they were
    1-28....  Sorry about that...
    
    REK

    ...and that one win didn't happen until this year.

    You heard it here first... The SUns will be looking to get Pat Ewing
    from NY.....
    
    REK

    >They were grapping, gropping, tripping, stripping, swinging and jumping
    >all over every hawk on the floor. 
    
    Not bad, M-Air_B.  Almost like the Clyde would have said it, announcing
    for the Knicks:
    
    "Isiah was grabbing and groping.  He was tripping and stripping."
    "But Sydney was a-movin' and a-groovin' down the lane.'
    
    Clyde's still got style.
    
    Remember, Mike, the winner of the Hawks-Pistons plays the winners of
    the Pacers-Celtics.  It wasn't the Lakers that sent the refs over...
    
    Dan

    Re: Ewing as a Sun
    
    that's a great rumor, but I hope they don't sacrifice the whole farm to
    get him.  I think they could really use another decent outside scorer
    to come off the bench.
    
    Mike

    I like this deal:  Ewing to Phoenix for West, Chambers, Knight, and
    Phoenix's #1 pick in 1993.  That would leave Phoenix with:
    
    C - Ewing, Carroll, Lang
    F - McDaniel, Nealy, Perry, Ceballos, Rambis
    G - KJ, Hornacek, Majerle
    
    The Suns would then need to pick up a back-up point guard in the
    draft, like Mike Iuzzolino of St. Francis or Terrell Lowery of
    Loyola Maymount.
    
    NAZZ

No ... the Suns don't need to rebuild the franchise to get a center. The
West/Lang duo with Carroll is a great, athletic crew that gets the job done
when the team is running. 

I'm not a Suns fan but it was easy to see that injuries to key players kept the
team from playing with the right intensity. The forwards in particular sucked
(but Pete C. over in the Sonics note pointed out long ago the fallacy of the
"X-as-Savior" theory). KJ wasn't himself either.

You also have to credit Utah's improvement. This team is a lot deeper now than
in previous years. They will give any opponent a tough game from here on in.

Brian

They were too blatantly hometeamanitis Dan to be the Celts's refs they had to
be the Lakers' traveling crew. I mean Bird does ocassionally get called for
a foul and can be knocked to the ground without a call. Magic on the hand
can travel down the lane unmolested and trip over the endline and some bozo 
will say he was hit at half court and then to boot give him the continuation
call....

the proofs in the pudding the Lakers annually lead the league in foul shots
attemped. This is pretty big when you consider how protect the Malones are...

mike

 who needs the easter bunny's help Dan? You know me I'm alot like you...

 mike    

    	Chicago over Philadelphia in 6
    
    	Michael, Pippen and Mr. Bill,
    	Will make Charles and Co. ill.
    
    	Los Angeles over Golden State in 5
    
    	The powers that be over at NBC,
    	Will draw the curtain on Run TMC.

    	I think Ford made a mistake pulling Dee Brown when he did and
    bringing in Larry.  Dee was playing great and Bird is a defensive
    liability.  It certainly would've showed who's really boss if Bird
    was on the bench at the end of the game.
    
    				/Don

 Larry Larry Larry......didn't you just love it Dan. I did especially
 when Indiana cut it to two...I could see you and Doc running to the
 cellar for more Laquer...

 ;^)

 and where the heil were the Celtics' supposed home court favoritism refs
 yesterday in the last minute or for that matter the entire game yesterday?
 In the Forum, the Palace or Chi-town Schremp would have been called for 
 the out-bounds (the correct call) and there certainly wouldn't have called
 the over and back. McHale clearly never stepped into the front court...

 ;^)

 mike

 >and where the heil were the Celtics' supposed home court favoritism refs
 >yesterday in the last minute or for that matter the entire game yesterday?
    
    The same place they were all game long.  THey were the three guys in
    the striped shirts on the floor.  One of them could be heard saying
    after a whistle: "He breathed in Larry's air space.  That's a foul!"
    
    Dan

    	Oh Danny boy, Bird only had 10 free throw attempts yesterday,
    but he was an awesome 12-19 from the field.  Boston had a whopping
    one more free throw attempt than the Pacers.  I told Mike this morning
    that you guys would have to stretch creativity to come up with a
    whineykissyface excuse, and you did.
    
    				/Don

    >	Oh Danny boy, Bird only had 10 free throw attempts yesterday,
    >but he was an awesome 12-19 from the field.
    
    Considering that he lives (and dies) from the outside, 10 was extremely
    generous.  That turn around jumper where Sanders didn't even attempt to
    touch him sure was a blast from the past, wasn't it?  Tweee!
    
    Dan

    	Obviously you missed the third quarter.  Bird was going to the
    basket repeatedly (a la vintage Bird).  Dan, the thing that really
    makes me laugh till my haid hurts is that you really believe this
    stuff.  Kind of like the old guy in the tattered wool overcoat who
    grabs you by the arm screaming "JESUS IS COMING!".
    
    				/Don

 What is worst Don is that Dan doesn't see the Lakers as getting more than 
 their share of hometeamanatis......

 I mean you and I all other astute Celtics' fan have admitted to the Celtics
 getting a few favor calls at home over the years (although it seems like
 86 was the last time they got em') but I've never ever heard a Lakers' fan
 admit the same....

 ;^)

    
    
    Mike, that's because the Lakers play honest basketball, the way God
    intended.

Mike, what do you expect from Hollywood? Reality? 



Steve

    re .209
    
    I know Mike was having a Bird-gasm (tm) when Lare-ry walked onto the
    floor, but didn't you just love it when he bricked his first 3 pointer, and
    then Person came right back down and drilled one in Birdy's face, then
    took his bows ?
    
    ha ha ha ....
    
    

    Person's golfing, Bird's still playing.
    
    HTH.
    
    Mark.

                                                
    > I know Mike was having a Bird-gasm (tm) when Lare-ry walked onto the
    > floor, but didn't you just love it when he bricked his first 3 pointer, and
    > then Person came right back down and drilled one in Birdy's face, then
    > took his bows ?
    
    Once again, Doc apparently was watching one a them special TV's that
    displays everything in reverse.  While Chuck owned the first half,
    Larry turned the tables in the second and Chuck got real quiet.  I'll
    hand it to Chuck, though, he earned my respect as a player and when all
    was said and done he made his true feelings known on Bird and the
    great series that had just transpired.  Doc, however, manages somehow 
    to declare a victory from a defeat on both the Bird and Celtic fronts 
    and continues to talk the trash in spite of all refutations of
    his opinions and any appeal to common decency...
    
    glenn
    

    re .221
    
    Nah Glenn, I was inspired by Person's class in the fact of the
    attempted trashing that he was being subjected to by the New England
    Circle Jerk Media ... I hope that Chuck's class and grace (not to
    mention long-range shooting and mental toughness) did not disappoint
    you and others ....
    
    heh heh heh
    
    Doc

    Hey Doc, The shot was on the line Person MISSED IT!! 
    
    The real basketball player is going into round two...
    The pretender (Person) is home after MISSING the tieing shot!!!!
    
    enuff said!!!
    
    REK

That's funny, I read nothing but praise for Mr. Person in the Boston media.
They went as far as to call him a "talking head" but other than that slight,
he was cast as quite a talent.



Steve

    
    
    Derrick Coleman was named Rookie of the Year.  Lionel Simmons came in
    second place.
    
    
    - Ken -

 Dee Brown placed 4th... PARADE IN JUNE!!!!!!!!!!

 ;^)

 actually Doc I was having Chief-gasms as him and me got  something in
 common....plus the fact that I told the Slash he had to get more involved.

 Detroit will probably force the Celtics to 7 games. I figure Detroit victories
 will be one wire to wire stinko blowout of the C's and two 4th quarter erasures
 of double digit Celtics' leads.

 BTW anybody got tickets for thursday they want to dump?

 mike

    	Doc, if you read something other than the Herald you might find
    some praise for Person.  8^)  I agree with Mike that I hadn't seen
    Parish that wound up in quite a while.  I was great!
    
    				/Don

    re .225
    
    Only because Person bombed them into submission by Game 5. After Game
    1, and esp. Game 2, the media almost wet their pants trying to trash
    Chuck ...

       Hey Dock, how 'bout them 6ers! And who are the Rockets playin' these
    days?
                                Denny

I knew I should've worn ma shitekickers in today!

    Hey Denny - how 'bout dem Lakers !
    
    And your previous quiet is encouraging - it must mean that the Septics
    are going 
        d
         o
          o
           o
            w 
             w
              w
               n
                n
                 n
                  n
                   !!!!
    
    
    
    
    
    
    				CRASH !!!!!!!!!!
    
    HAHAHAHAAAAAAAA !!!!!11

Anybody going to be able to post some game updates for the Celtics-Pistons game 
this afternoon?  Those of us in "quiet" offices thank you.

=Bob=

Is the game carried on any FM stations?

thanks
dd

    
    
    	Celtics up by 6 early in the second quarter.... Bird is playing.
    

================================================================================
Note 6.215          The National Basketball Association (NBA)         215 of 237
CSC32::J_HERNANDEZ "Go ahead, make my breakfast!"     4 lines   6-MAY-1991 13:02
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
>    Mike, that's because the Lakers play honest basketball, the way God
>    intended.
    
The Lakers play basketball the way Larry intended it?  I don't think so...

Celts were up 26-21 after the 1st quarter.  That was 10+ minutes ago realtime...

    
    	Celtics up by 2 at the half 50-48.
    

    Pistons down 2 at the half, with Bird playing and Zeke out?  I'll take
    that so far...

    
    	Pistons up by 3 with 3 minutes left in the 3rd.
    

Celts up 73-70 to start the 4th

    Come on Celts, you gotta win one...
    
    ...then go back to sleep for the rest of the series so my Pistons in 5
    contest prediction in the "Talk Trash About the Celtics" note comes
    true.  (1/2 :-))
    
    
    py

Celts by 9 TIMEOUT Detroit....7 mins to go...McHale dominating !!!!  5
fouls on Rodman

Celts 97  Pistons 89 -  2:55 to go in 4th.....

2:30  left, Celts by 7, Rodman fouled out

Dumars just hit a trey to bring the Pistons within 8 with :46 left...

Final score  109-103




Celts win!!!  Series even at 1.

    	Phew, now I can wait until tomorrow to pick up toilet paper
    at the supermarket and use the Rodman substitute for a few more
    days.  Thanks MR4DEC::WENTZELL for the updates, it was greatly
    appreciated.  
    
    				/Don

Thanks a million guys - I you kept me on the edge of my chair!

Go Celts!!!  (it's still a long shot)

=Bob=

Glad someone was reading!!!

Now, let's keep that good karma in the Gahden going until about 11:00pm 
tonight!!!

Scott

    
>Now, let's keep that good karma in the Gahden going until about 11:00pm 
>tonight!!!
    
    Fenway, too!!
    
    Gee, it doesn't seem very often that all three teams are in town at
    once.  And on a work day, I can just imagine the traffic and where oh
    where to find a place to park. Lawdy Mama!
    
    Dickstah
    

    
    Being from Detroit and rooting for the Pistons I feel that we was
    jinxed.  Rodman is planning on guarding only one Bird ... Larry.
    He couldn't handle the pigeon that was flying around the garden.
    
    One of the guys in the office had a pocket TV and a pigeon kept on
    landing on the court.  At one point Mchale tried to swat it with
    a towel.
    
    I was listening on the radio and the Pistons went stone cold in the 4th
    quarter and Celtics limited them to only one shot.  The Pistons also
    go burned badly by the Celtics offensive rebounding.
    
    \pjb

    
    	I caught the 2nd half before coming in.  Aguirre basically
    carried Detriot(tm) in the first half with 17 points.  
    
    	2nd half started out with lots of 1-on-1 play from both teams,
    lots of missed shots, lots of Piston rebounding.  Dumars, who had
    a really poor first half, started lighting it up from the outside.
    With Joe D. leading the way, Detriot(tm) opened up a 5-point lead
    near the end of the 3rd.  This is when Boston's guards, especially
    Brown, starting asserting themselves.  C's went from being down by
    5 to up by 9 within a 4 minute span, covering the end of the 3rd and
    the beginning of the 4th, during which time Detriot(tm) basically
    got one shot.
    
    	Princess was suited up for the game, but did not play.  
    
    
    					 	 glen j.
    

    
    I've tried to stay quiet about it because it sounds like whining, but I
    am getting to the point where I have to turn off the 76ers/Bulls games
    on TV because I cannot stand the way the Bulls play defense. I have
    listened to alot of nonsense about how physical the Sixers are but the
    bulls are slapping the shit out of them and I see no calls (or recourse
    from the 76ers either). I saw an elbowing foul on Mahorn where Grant
    was drapped all over him, followed by an immediate T on Mahorn, I saw
    Cartright smack a Sixer to the floor, but it wasn't a flagrant foul. I
    saw Paxton walk in fromnt of Barkley and get an offensive foul called
    on Charles. I see Jordan constantly smack everyone on the Sixers and
    get away with it. What the F**k is the story. Is the league trying to
    get them to advance? The sixers can be very competitive with the
    Bulls, but not with this nonsense. I fully expect this to be a 4 game
    series with the way things are going. It's just a shame that the 76ers
    don't get a chance to show what they can do. The supposed finess team
    is beating the crap, both physically and literally, out of the supposed
    physical team.
    
    Maybe this is the way the Bulls play all year and they always get away
    with it, I don't know. What I see is alot of reach ins, offensive
    fouls, etc from the Bulls. During game 2, I think that a real ref might
    have had Jordan foul out in the first period. I'm sureevery foul isn't
    called but one out of 5 would be nice. I just can't stand to watch a
    game where the advantage given to one team is so great. I guess they
    feel that the Bulls are a good gate attraction for the NBA but this is
    nuts.
    
    Before anyone else says it, I know the 76ers re shooting more fouls,
    but you need to look at the type of play both teams are exhibiting.
    This is insane and I cannot watch the games anymore.
    
    Dennis
    

 Was I really watching channel 4 1:00 pm saturday or was that just a dream I 
 had???

 ;^)

 mike

    Worst officiating I ever saw was in yesterday's Chicago/Philly match.
    
    The Bulls will win it all if the refs keep calling their games like
    that.   
    
    Bill Cartwright is a cheap shot artist (as is Will Purdue).  I wish
    Mahorn had decked Cartwright....
    
    JD

    Dennis,
    
    The NBA and the REAL powers that be (TV) want a LA-Chicago series, and
    they want it BAD.  They'll do anything to get it.
    

    Must have been a dream Mike... must have been....

    Actually, in the games I've watched, the Bulls, Lakers and Celtics all
    have the refs in their back pockets.  But  Chicago has been getting the
    best of everything.  You think they were all vestal virgins.
    
    The Lakers have been getting the benefit of the calls, as they ususally 
    do, and the Celtics, as always, have the Refs in their back pockets.
    
    All in all, I swear the refs blow the whistle early and then make up
    foul calls, whenever anyone breathes near Michael, Lawwy or Majic.
    
    /Don is proven wrong again.   The Lakers have been trashed more than
    any other hoop team in here over the last 4 years.   However, God
    forbid if anyone trashed the holy green sweat socks, then you and the
    rest of the Jihad get ready for the mother of all Holy Wars.  Take a
    look in the mirror, /Don.  Celts fans are the worst.
    
    JD

    
    Interesting article in our local paper after the Pistons Celtics
    game Pittsburgh Boston game last thursday.  They said that the
    two most hated athletes were playing in Boston that day.
    
    Bill Laimbeer and Ulf Samuelson.  The remark was that Samuelson
    was hated more than Laimbeer.  A comment from Stevens from Pittsburgh
    said that they are both similar in style.  They both get under the
    skin of the opposing team and both hate to lose.
    
    \pbj

    LA didn't have ANY excuses last year!  Unless being outclassed and
    outplayed is an excuse.

    What's this?  Kevin "blackhole" McHale was the Celtics team leader in
    assists in Saturday's blowout win over the World Champion Detroit
    Pistons?

... and Don Nelson is making the Warriors the most 
interesting show on the court!

I BARELY believed what I saw Saturday afternoon in 
Detroit -- I was SURE I was still dreaming after the 
night before, seeing Utah come back from long-gone-
and-hard-to-find, only to lose at the buzzer... -- 
I STILL don't fathom what the Run-TMC folks are doing 
(even if the Dreaded Fakers [ooh!  The breeze from his
passing blew my concentration -- Technical, REF!]) ARE
going to be given a free pass to the Conference Finals
[Where the Blazers will eat them in 5 or less...]

Ain't it fun, now that they've FINALLY gotten to the
last couple rounds...?

    dON, DIDN'T SEE WHAT rODMAN DID, so I have no comment.
    
    No imaginery fans, ?don - here, the Celts file, and from living amongst
    them for over 13 years.  
    
    A cheap shot is a cheap shot.  I still remember McHale making the worst
    cheap shot in history vs. Rambis, and the Celts press and fans thinking
    it was great.  He tried to hurt him.   ANd Parrish sucker punching
    Laimbeer - another 'class' act by the Celtics.
    
    Re:  Mike Heiser
    
    Suns went down early this year.  Heard one reason was KJ trying to pick
    between X-man and Tommy Gun.  Enjoy.  Those two will cause strife in
    Suns-land.  Like I've said a million times, no team with Tom Chambers
    will ever win the enchilada.
    
    JD

    	I don't participate in the Celtics notesfile.  I suppose in
    your mind what McHale did to Rambis was worse than what Kermit
    Washington did to Rudy Tomjanovich?  I can't say I am surprised.
    
    				/Don

    Re: Suns & JD
    
    They just weren't hungry enough this year.  I think some of the players
    on this team need a heart transplant with Bird after he retires.
    
    Mike

    /Don,
    \
    Wrong again.  You should just go home and go to bed and start over
    again.  You haven't gotten one thing right all day.  Washington should
    have been thrown out of the league.
    
    McHale jsut about admitted he did it on purpose - he should have been
    ejected, suspended from the playoffs, and fined.  He could have easily
    broken Rambis' neck.  And Celtic fans cheered it.
    
    I've seen push down's, take downs, shoves, fights and the like in
    numerous hoops games, and involving numerous teams.  But for playoff
    action, Mchale's cheapest of the cheap shots, and Parrish's sucker
    punching remain two of the worst of all time.  I understand Parrish's
    frustrations, cuz Laimbeer is a cheapshot artist - the sneaky kind.
    But it didn't warrant what parrish did.  Never will.
    
    JD

    re .274
    
    I agree with most of that, but Washington moe than suffered enough for
    his actions. What burns me up about that whole incident is that the
    media chose to ignore the ambush job Kunert did n Washington to
    preciptate the brawl. Nor did they point out the fact that Rudy should
    have sat down instead trying to act as a peacemaker. Nor did anyone
    point out that Rudy ran up on KW's blindside, and that it was
    tragically understandable that Washington would have assumed that he
    was being targeted for a sucker punch. No one believes, not Rudy, nor
    most of the NBA, that Washington was hitting Rudy with intent to maim.
    Nor did he have a history like a Mahorn or Laimbeer. McHale has a lot
    more malicous intent than Washington did, but that's the media for you.
    Washington was made out to be a half-savage brute that would do the
    same thing to a 80 year old lady.
    
    McHale ? CBS wore out the replay of that cheap shot against Rambis, and
    all I heard was how that exemplified the "blue collar ethic" of the
    Septics, and was instrumental in their title game ...
    
    Give me a *!#~@! break .....

    	And when Rodman threw Bird into the seats Saturday it was "blue
    collar ethic" Doc?

JD, did you watch game 5 against Indiana? the last minute? Celtics get nowhere
near the calls they used to get. I remember a time whenever ball that went out
of bounds was our. Last thursday was the best home cooking I've seen the Celts
get since 1986....

Like I said last week Don, we're the only ones man enought to admit that we get
a few calls. Still have yet to see a Lakers, Bulls or Pistons fan admit the
same...

 Oh and Walt (your excused from the above statement) PLEASE DON"T WAKE ME UP
 THEN!!!!!

mike

    Bird got a shot in with that wonderful headlock before Rodman pushed
    him into the stands.  Both should have got T's...maybe because it
    was Larry Legend they didn't?  Who knows.  They both deserved T's.
    That would have put Rodman out after Pinckney tied him out in the
    second half.  Can't believe they didn't call anything the time down
    the floor before it.
    
    Forgot if I heard it on the radio or TV, but what would the Warriors
    be like if they had Laimbeer in the middle?  The middle would be clear,
    Laimbeer could hit jumpers and they'd have someone with height to clear
    the boards...  Wonder if they could get a deal like one of their #1's
    and Tolbert for him... who's their backup guard?
    
    -Walt

    
    If Barkley, Mahorn, or Lainbeer had done what Cartright did during
    Sunday's 76ers/Bulls game, they would have tossed from the game,
    suspended, and possibly shot at midcourt. Unbelievable. I think Jordan
    is a terrific player, but the coddling he gets diminishs everything he
    does, in my eyes. I have about given up whatching basketball on TV and
    just listen to it on the radio. That way I can't see it when the seeing
    eye dog corps mess up the game.
    
    Dennis
    

 Pistons take game 4. Rodman was way excellent on the board as was Aguire from
 the field. Celts played well but missed too many foul shots and gave Dumars
 the lane for free all night. Pistons had a both a 20+ rebound and foul shooting
 advantage and still only won by 7. 104-97. Reggie Lewis had Rodman shaking his 
 head a few times on some of his score. Mchale torched Lambieer badly but the
 Chief's wowful 3 out 9 or so from the line and foul trouble was his undoing.

 Isiah didn't play. Dee Brown had a decent game and go figure this Celts only
 had 5 turnovers for the entire game. Geez they usually average that a quarter.

 Tonight the Bulls try to close out the Sixers and the Warriors begin the 
 their comeback...

 ;^)

    No one thinks their own players hot dog, they just celebrate.  No one
    thinks their own players take cheap shots, they're just aggressive. 
    Hot dogging and cheap shots are always done by the other guy.
    
    John

    No, just not undeserved cheap shots... Mahorn used to give them when
    he was with Detriot.  Laimbeer, well, no matter what I say about him,
    I'll get abuse, so why bother.  But other teams do it too.  It depends
    on how bad and how much they think they can get away with...

    Sorry... I meant Detriot(tm)...

    I don't know Ninj,  I'm a Knicks fan, but I still think Oakley gives
    out some cheapies, Mark Jackson was an overhyped player from the start,
    and Gerald Wilkins is a ball hog.  
    
    I think Ewing gets away with a lot - but he's in that superstar
    category, so he gets coddled - but not as much as Majic, Air, Lawwy or
    even Mr. Robinson.  
    
    I've seen more inconsistency in officiating this year then any other
    year.  And I've seem more flopping then ever before.  
    
    JD

    JD, I'm trying to generalize about the foolishness that's going on in
    here.  Everybody is accusing everyone else's players of cheap shots and
    hot dogging and it's sort of in the eye of the beholder.
    
    It's like the parallel arguments of Russell vs Chamberlain and Bird vs
    Johnson.  Depending on which side of the argument you're on, the
    Celtics fan will argue for Russell and use the same arguments against
    Chamberlain, turn them around and argue in favor of Bird. 
    Inconsistency bugs me greatly.
    
    Picking a greatest player of all-time or all-star teams is a problem
    anyway because there are too many conflicting measurements.  These
    usually turn into popularity contests and I always remembers these are
    opinions and not absolutes.
    
    My own opinion on it?  Wilt was probably the greatest player of all
    time but I believe he choked in the clutch.  No stats to back it up,
    just an opinion.  He could have been an inspirational leader to lift
    his teams to more titles than just the two he won, but he didn't.  His
    surrounding cast wasn't as bad as everyone thinks.  If I needed to have
    a center to build a team around, I would have taken Russell because he
    played big in the big games and he was a winner.  11 titles to 2.
    
    The difference between 5 titles and 3 titles isn't anywhere near that
    great and if I had to choose between Bird and Magic, I'd choose Magic. 
    It's not because Magic is a more exciting player but I'm not blinded by
    the pro-Bird hype around here (and JD, I hope you don't let the
    pro-Bird media bias around here blind you to the fact that he's a great
    player too - it shouldn't) and the anti-Laker Showtime bias either. 
    Magic has truly revolutionized the game.  In terms of titles and
    talent, I would take Magic over Bird.  My dad will probably disown me
    for saying it, but that's the way I feel.
    
    John

    re .286
    
    
    John, when your dad finds out, he's shipping your butt to Boston College
    to do grad school .... :-)
    
    Sorry, but I can't hold with the "choke" theory with Wilt - most of his
    teammates can't tag him with that, so I won't.
    
    doc

    re .285
    
    JD, I saw a gem of an officiating call last night :
    
    Rodman is playing great D on Bird, Bird tries to shoot the step-back
    fallaway, and gets STUFFED by Rodman.
    
    Foul on Rodman. You should have heard The Palace crowd ! Rodman went
    midly crazy (a good distance from the ref - smart move Dennis). 
    
    The call was soooo bad, even Cousy was hard pressed to justify it, and
    the replay merely underlined it.
    
    Now to make a bad situation worse, on the Pistons next possession,
    McHale was called for a touch foul on Salley. Obvious makeup call,
    which just incensed the crowd even more - they're no dummnies ....
    
    Doc

 Maybe you can't Doc but the records speak for themselves. Wilt wilted under
 pressure....

    My parents would have been a lot happier had I gone to BC, believe me. 
    They still cheer for the Eagles now and probably cheered for BC when we
    played against them.  They definitely do worship at the shrine of Saint
    Douglas of the Heights, too.
    
    John
    

    
    re. 288
    
    One of the comments by our local announcing team  "I wish the
    officiating was as good as the game."  Has ref #15 been in the
    league very long?  He blew many calls in this game.  Oh well
    we won.  On to Boston for game 5 on Wednesday night.
    
    Changing the subject.  One of our local sportswriter had an article
    about this years playoffs.  His comment was that either a healthy
    Boston of Detroit team would probably beat Chicago in the Eastern
    Conference finals.
    
    \pjb

    re .290
    
    Yeah, but the idea would have been to hurt YOU ... tell me that BC is
    your fav school JOhn_boy, come on .... :-)

    
    
    	Gotta admit after watching last nights Celtics/Detroit game that
    my observations still hold.  Along with Boxing, the NBA is becoming
    more like the WWF every day.  As a referee that takes pride in the
    fact that I feel I call a fair game, I just can't stomach the NBA
    officiating anymore.  I'm so frustrated watching the NBA at the lact
    of calls or no-calls, that I just can't enjoy the game.  Last nights
    affair in Detroit only emphasized it more.
    
    	The NBA has really become "entertainment" and left basketball at
    the door.  The stars are protected and the game is messed with by rule
    changes that are made to keep fans in the seats and don't really do a
    thing for the game itself.
    
    	Unlike Baseball and Football where I believe the best officials 
    in their respective trade work, NBA basketball is second rate.  I've
    always felt (since becoming a ref) that the Div. I NCAA ref's were the
    best, and after watching a number of NBA playoff games, my observation
    still sticks.  
    
    	I'm not saying that in the other major sports that certain players
    are not protected at times, but for the most part, when I watch a 
    Baseball or NFL Football game, I feel that these ref's are the best.
    When I watch an NBA game, the ref's appear like tokens.  I guess, the
    stars are just to important to the game, for the game to be called
    correctly...  Thank god for the NCAA.  At least no one player is bigger
    than the game itself, and the ref's are allowed to do their job.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

    re: NBA officiating
    
    I couldn't agree more bill.  If Dr. Naismith could witness the amount
    of physical contact that goes on in an NBA game he'd no doubt roll over
    in his grave.
    
    I flipped the Detroit-Boston game off-and-on intermittently last night
    but the play that made me permanently stick to the Braves game was 
    Rodman's "phantom" (in his eyes) foul on Bird.  Larry's got the ball
    and gets hip-checked numerous times while dribbling.  He then picks up
    his dribble, whereupon Rodman blatantly reaches in to try to steal the
    ball.  (That brings the foul count up to around a half dozen or so.)
    Bird then shoots, Rodman blocks it (perhaps cleanly) and he starts
    crying.
    
    <CLICK> went my remote control.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    I was watching the Dodgers-Expos game after the CELibaTIC(tm) - Detriot(tm)
    game, I dunno who the home plate ump was but he was consistant.
    Martinez wiffs some righty on a called third strike on the outside
    corner and the next inning Butler (a lefty) wiffs on a called third
    strike in exactly the same location. my brother was going nuts until I
    reminded him that that was the same location. 

    Chris,
    
    Actually handchecking and body contact are the things I least mind
    about pro hoops, and hoops in general.   There HAS to be body contact.
    
    What s*cks about hoops (and this happens in both pros and college) is
    the inconsistency of body contact.  A guy will bump and grind for
    position down low (and Chris, many a TarHell (TM) has done that) and no
    whistle, but a guard will give a little hand check at half-court and
    get blown for a foul.  That's stupid.
    
    I fully believe that if an offensive player initiates contact on a
    drive or a shot, then there should be no way that the defender can get
    whistled for a foul (unless he really hacks 'em).
    
    The fouls I HATE are the one's down by Bird, Majic, Air, etc...
    
    Jordan jumps into a defender, defender stands there helplessly (and
    caint get in 'charge' position) - Jordan draws foul.  BOGUS.
    
    Bird sets up, leans shoulder into defender, then does fade-a-way -
    tweet, foul on defender.
    
    Majic does the same thing (and Barkley, etc....)
    
    How many times you see the offensive player hook the defender to get
    around him, and the defender gets whistled??  I've seen it a zillion
    times.
    
    I can sit and watch a game and KNOW when the whistle will blow.   I
    know if a rookie or a 'stiff' is anywhere near a superstar, he'll get
    called for a foul.  I know if a superstar yells while driving, the
    whistle will blow...
    
    ANd it's just as bad in college.  Big name schools get the advantages
    of the calls over smaller schools - esp. in the tourney....
    
    JD

    I prefer the pro version because of its "let 'em play" attitude.  Of
    course, we won't get into the time the last two minutes takes.  I
    believe a team should not be allowed to call a time out after a made
    basket.
    
    John

 Yeah JD but atleast in college they still call travelling and 3 seconds...
 I almost fell out of my chair last night when they called three seconds
 on Rodman. I think that was the first time this year I can remember them
 calling it. Also one you don't get away with in college that Rodman lives
 on is over the back on the rebound...But hey they allow that kind of contact
 to everyone so I really shouldn't single Dennis out...

 mike

    The contact that takes place in the college game is miniscule compared
    to what I was watching last night.  The amount of bumping and grinding
    going on was unbelievable and, IMNSHO, a horrible detraction from the 
    game.
    
    The "let 'em play" philosophy may be preferred by some, but I'm not one
    of 'em.  The Darwinian world of the NBA already has huge biases toward
    size, and the amount of contact the refs now allow accelerates this. 
    
    As I've said before, the NBA is beyond sport and into the
    WWF/circus-freak show category.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Everyone gets away with the lean in fouls, go up for the shot pump fake
    get the defender in the air lean in score the point get the foul.  What
    is wrong with this play, a defender shouldnt be able to jump into you.
    And if you think just the superstars get this call your crazy, any
    player who can execute that type of play will get those calls.  If may
    seem like the bird/majic/jordan/malone get these calls more often but
    just use common sense, of course a player who plays 42mins will get
    more calls than a player who plays 2mins.  They also have the ball in
    there hands more often and therefore get fouled more often.  And if
    they didnt protect the stars (A little) then you would get teams
    purposly attempting to take that (Best player) out of the game with
    hard fouls.  If you look at it in proportion I bet the calls go the
    same for most players just appears to be more or less due to the color
    of your glasses (any color).
    							M_Air_Brooks

    Notice how all these refereee discussions only pop up after the Celtics
    lose a big game?  
    
    Dan

    Chris,
    
    I for one don't think the college game is that much better.  I see lots
    and lots of contact.  I see preferential treatment - your Tarhells
    (TM), and Duke are two teams that especially come to mind.  The college
    game lets coaches rule the game - not the players.  Hoops is a contact
    sport - no matter what folks think.  ANd it doesn't just mean it's a
    contact sport in the pros.  The college players are big and bang a lot,
    although the stupid zone sometimes cuts down on it.   Street ball is
    very physical.   You can't play inside and not bump and grind.
    
    re Mike Air Brooks...
    
    The play that allows an offensive player to chuck the ball inthe
    direction of the hoop and have it called 'in the act of shooting' is
    the stupidest foul allowed in hoops.   The  superstars get kid gloves
    treatment.  Your beloved Michael gets away with murder.  In Game 4, he
    hacked Ron Anderson, Michael whined, and they gave the foul to Paxson!
    No way Paxson fouled Anderson - Jordan did - but the refs are too
    chicken to give a fould to a superstar....and he wasn't in foul
    trouble.
    
    Too often they blow the whistle, and instead of giving the foul to the
    star, they look around and give it to the nearest dweeb.
    
    Sickening.
    
    JD

    re JD
    
    John, my friend, I would like to go back to your comments about the
    "cheap shot" you allegedly have hung around Robert Parrish's neck.
    
    Let's go back a few years to that playoff series between the Pistons
    and Celtics. Let's envision a Robert Parrish with gimpy ankles
    struggling to trot up the floor, let alone run. Let's recall how some
    Celtic fans foolishly accused Bill Walton of having no guts for opting
    not to ruin his life by giving Parrish a blow.
    
    Now, we have Laimbeer who is an artist at work. I admire the guy, I
    really do. He works to get the other guy out of his game by needling,
    elbowing, etc. nHe benefits from the retaliation. He's a slick
    operator. Very team oriented. Commited to win...AT ALL COSTS!!
    
    If you will recall, Laimbeer had been aiming at Parrish's ankles
    throughout the game. Subtle kicks, shoves, swipes. Parrish didn't whine
    to the refs ala McHale or Magic. On a few occasions he could be seen
    talking to Laimbeer probably saying, "Listen, #%*hole, do it again and
    I'm gonna punch you out." So Laimbeer keeps it up. Keeps needling.
    Parrish is in pain, man. The guy is hobbling bad. 
    
    Then, Laimbeer and Parrish go up for a rebound. I believe Laimbeer
    unintentionally ended up on Parrish's ankle but the Chief had had
    enough. He hit Laimbeer with a glancing overhand right and then a
    left.  
    
    Laimbeer hits the floor like a ton of bricks. No blood, no black eye,
    no concussion. But parrish is ejected from the game, fined and banished
    from the next game. Laimbeer did his thing.
    
    What I'm saying is, Parrish took a swing at Laimbeer. If you choose to
    call it a cheap shot, I think you are not looking at the matter deep
    enough. Robert Parrish is respected by nearly every player and every
    coach in the NBA as class personified. Laimbeer? I wouldn't say the
    same about.
    
    Rich
     

    Late West Coast scores:
    
    LA 124, Golden State 119(OT) - LAKERS win series 4-1
    Portland 103, Utah 96 - Portland wins series 4-1
    
    Chicago 100, Philadelphia 95 - Bulls win series 4-1
    
    	LA vs. Portland should be the best Western Conf. Championship
    series in quite some time.
    
    	Chicago gets to rest while Detroit and Boston beat each other
    to a pulp.  Any bets as to who gets ejected first? :-)
    
    
    						 glen j.

    It's Parish, P-A-R-I-S-H, 1 R, not 2.  P-A-R-R-I-S-H plays baseball and
    used to play for the Red Sox.  They also don't look at all alike.
    
    Thank you for letting me get that off my chest.
    
    John

I hope the celtics can stop detroit, more importantly I want the series to go
to 7 games.  Give the Bulls some rest time and tire out ther competition. 
ALthough the Lakers VS Portland series starts on saturday and all my luck 
portland will sweep the lakers and get plenty of rest waiting for the bulls.
The Celtics must win tonight to keep the BOSTON VS CHICAGO hopes alive.  I hope
they do it, I WILL GET TICKETS TO A PLAYOFF GAME if BOSTON and CHICAGO end up
in the eastern finals. !!!!! Cant Wait.
								M_Air_Brooks
And I still think if a defender jumps into an offensive player while
in the act of shooting, weater he leans in or not its a foul.  Jumping full
force into someone can cause sever injury and that shouldnt be part of the
game.  SO if you going to risk injuring someone then you have to accept it
if that player has the atletic ability to lean in draw the foul and score the
basket......Thats B_BALL at its best.

    We have 3 non-Celtic fans (JD, ACChris, and bill g.) and 1 Celtic fan
    (Mike C.) commenting about the state of reffereeing in the NBA and Dan
    starts throwing around the Schneid insinuations.

	I vehemently disagree that the officiating is worse now than 
before.  What before?  The 60's, 70's?  I believe the officials are under 
more scrutiny now because all the playoff games, and a large number of 
regular season games are televised.  I can remember back in 1973 during a 
Celtics/Knicks game at the Garden Paul Silas and Dave Debusschre trading 
punches under the basket as the play went up the other end and no foul was 
called.  These were no tippity tap punches like the players throw today, but 
good overhand ones right to the chops.  The crowd roared, but the two guys 
in the striped shirts on the court never saw it happen.  

	Even when the games were televised back when, the networks didn't 
have the number of cameras or technology that they have today to catch all 
the action.  Superstars back then got the same preferential treatment they 
get today, so I fail to see any credibility in the arguement that the 
referees are worse today than back whenever.  And Schneid, this whole 
discussion was started by Dennis Faust.  Dennis I guess we'll have to call 
you a Celtic fan now, so Dan will be happy.

				/Don

    
    re. Hawk.  Ok I'll put in a note that is not whining in nature.
    
    Tonights Pistons Celtics game will be televised on Palace Vision.
    Pistons fans will get a chance to see the Palace for only $3
    a ticket.  All of the proceeds from the ticket sales will go
    to Childrens Hospital in Detroit.  The Pistons have done this on
    eight other occasions and each was a sell-out.  Also the Pistons
    are 8 - 0.
    
    \pjb

Seems sad that the Warrior fantasy couldn't have lasted at least ONE
MORE GAME ... IMHO they're the most exciting and interesting team in
the NBA right now -- playing WAY OVER their heads (could it be the
Coach, yet another ex-Celtic dependable?), consistently coming up with
just the right play when they needed it, and extending the Flakers to
all they could handle...

Especially will miss:

Hardaway's impossible threadings to the hoop...

His blind passes back to a 3-pointer for Mullin/Richmond/et al

Marciulionis (sp? - normally I pride myself on such matters, but this
one's almost beyond me...), with his INCREDIBLY GUTSY ball-play (They're
right -- he DOES have the strongest hands in the game), and his stick-
it-in-there approach to the whole situation.  Proof that not all the
Russian imports are big stiffs...

Oh, well -- I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that Magic man (didn't he suck up the
joint in the fourth quarter -- turnovers, bad passes, etc.?) will 
survive the Blazer steamroller ...

    Rich,
    
    Robert Parrish is probably my favorite Celtic (after Cornbread Maxwell)
    of all time.  IMO, he's the REAL reason for the Celtics success in the
    1980's.  He's been unstoppable, and has, IMO, developed into one of the
    best of all time.  He's done it with class and dignity - but I still
    contend that he shouldn't have sucker-punched Laimbeer - he brought
    himself down to Bill's level.  I do wish that Robert had had the chance
    to walk in on the bufoons he robbed his house a few years ago...
    
    RE Hawk:  Coming from Mr. Sports Noter of Substance, your complaint
    falls on deaf ears.   How many junk notes do you enter a day??  A week?
    Oh yeah;  ;-)
    
    Watched part of the Bulls-Sixers game last night, and turned it off -
    the officiating is so dang inconsistent that it makes it unpleasant to
    watch.   Like football, hoops is more and more taking all options away
    from the defender.  I'm sick of a offensive player jumping into a
    defender and drawing the foul - they should jst make it a no call, or a
    foul on both.  
    
    JD

How did Worthy do last night?  He has followed up his worst pro season
by only shooting over 50% in ONE playoff game so far before last night.

Look for James in a Hornets uniform next year.

>How did Worthy do last night?
    
    James was one of the key reasons the Lakers won the game, scoring about
    every other basket as the Lakers took it into overtime.  I don't have
    stats.  Also Cotton Fitzsimmons was complaining that James shouldn't
    have been left off of the NBA All-Defensive team, citing his
    dismantling of Chris Mullin since game 2 as an example of the handiwork
    that Cotton has seen all too often.
    
    James did not have his worst season, despite it being the first time he
    ever shot under 50%.  There's a lot of NBA players who dream about
    going over 50% for the first time.
    
    The NBA Western Conference finals matches up the two best teams in the
    NBA.
    
    Dan

re: Lambeer and Parish


Parish wasn't ejected after he hit Lambeer.  In fact, I don't even 
think a foul was called.    The refs said they didn't see it happen.

		Bob 

    re .315
    
    Hey Doug, maybe you should watch TNT sports ... it seems that Worthy
    deserves the bulk of the credit for neuralizing Chris Mullin throught
    the series ...

    >You don't expect us to rely on your memory do you?
    
    Only if you want the truth.  Seeing that you're a Celtic fan, you're
    probably not interested.
    
    Dan

    Portland + LA best 2 teams in the NBA...What..The bulls split with
    the lakers and would beat them in a 7 game series with home court.
    WHICH they would have seeing the were able to beat MORE teams than
    the lakers could salvage.  And The bulls have more than Pippen/Jordan
    no matter what you want to think.  Cartwright/King/Purdue did a great
    job against patrick ewing (Who I hope you consider to be a great one)
    and against Mchorn they were great as well.  So even though none of
    them are great theyve done a fairly good job (Actully king's name 
    should not be included hes really been a no-show).  And paxsons old
    and doesnt play great but hits some great clutch 3pts.  Grant has been
    a monster off the boards and is shooting fairly well and Hodges is the
    3 pt champ after all, and he has yet to heat up.  I think you people in
    the notes file sometime take these players too lightly, sure they dont
    play GREAT night after night but they dont have too.  I look forward to
    whichever team is good enough to meat the Bulls in the Finals.  Hope
    the lakers can win at least 2 against portland.
    							M_air_Brooks

Worthy had a poor start to the game (1-6) with a few turnovers.  However,
he picked it up and made some nice passes on the offensive end.  He ended
up with 26 points (including the tie breaking shot in OT) and I assume he
scored most  the point in the second half and OT (which I didn't see).

Magic had a triple double including 28 points.

How about Air Jordan with 17 (19?) rebounds? 

    >                  -< Lakers #2 team in Nba..Ya right >-
    
    Hey, who said anything about the Lakers being #2???
    
    >The bulls split with
    >the lakers and would beat them in a 7 game series with home court.
    >WHICH they would have seeing the were able to beat MORE teams than
    >the lakers could salvage. 
    
    Playing in the significantly weaker Eastern Conference is why the Bulls
    won more games.  Despite that, since their poor start, the Lakers
    rolled up the best record in basketball.  It's fine with me that people
    are overlooking them.  They are vulnerable, unlike some past years, but
    they are in an excellent position to challenge.  
    
    The split with the Bulls is not that significant.  Both won their home
    games, but the Lakers won in LA in the game when Magic missed most of
    the second half.  They lost on a Friday night in the second game of a
    back-to-back road game setup.  That won't happen during the playoffs,
    as only the Celtics are allowed to play scheduling shenanigans.
    
    >And The bulls have more than Pippen/Jordan
    >no matter what you want to think.
    
    You haven't heard my views on the Bulls, so don't prejudge them. 
    Against the Lakers (if they both end up playing), the Bulls in the
    Jordan years have been ripped up on the inside defensively, and despite
    the emergence of Pippen as an offensive threat still rely too heavily
    on Jordan when crunch time is on and the defense gears up.
    
    Dan

    The NBA refs are so much better than college refs it isn't even funny.
    Saying college refs are superior is like saying a road company of
    "Cats" is better than the original cast in New York.  The NBA is the
    pinnacle of the profession - many of the current NBA refs were college
    refs previously.
    
    THe college game is, almost without exception, an endless parade to
    the foul line in the closing minutes.  Often, NBA games are decided by
    the players.  And while it's true stars do get protected in the NBA, 
    big-name programs (and coaches) get similarly protected in college.
    
    NAZZ

    If college hoops is so much better then why do we have the endless
    parade to the foul line and why are things so heavily regimented?
    
    John

    
    re: Nazz
    
    	That's a good opinion Nazz but I've got one too, along with
    actually wearing the stripes.  To put it in a nutshell, IMO, the
    NBA ref's are inferior to the top Div. I referees.  The NBA is so 
    hokey with "rules" that it makes a person who understands them laugh.
    
    	Even with 3 ref's, the NBA guys are constantly out of position and
    standing around.  You know, if I did what the NBA guys did in my "high
    school" games, I wouldn't be working very long.  Consistancy is another
    issue.  In the NBA, there is none, or should I say, they are consistant
    in that they don't call the game properly.  At least in the college
    game most agree that they are consistant.  Why you even stated that
    most college games are decided with a parade to the foul line in the
    last 2 minutes.  Well, tell me, if it's a foul in the first 2 minutes,
    what makes it any less of a foul in the last 2 minutes?
    
    	At least in the HS and college game, the officials strive to make
    the contest fair for both teams.  A foul is a foul no matter when it
    is comitted.  Why should one team be given an advantage by letting
    things go.  What happens then is that the team that can best hold, 
    grab, push and shove and get away with it wins.  
    
    	In the NBA, to make the game "better", they let the team inbounding
    the ball have a choice as to where to inbound it after a TO at the
    end of the game.  Geez, talk about giving a team an advantage, and why?
    How many college teams would love to have that rule against teams that
    play good fullcourt defense.
    
    	In the NBA, the players are more important than the game itself
    and the ref's are simply around to stop any fights.  The stars control
    the game intirely, whereas at least in the college game, no one player
    is bigger than the game.  In the NBA, you rarely see the best players
    in foul trouble, whereas in the college game, the best players are 
    usually seen IN foul trouble.  The college game is no respector of
    any player.  In college, the mealticket is not player x, but the game
    itself.  Player x will leave State U after 2-4 years, whereas the
    player in the NBA is the mealticket and could hang around for 10+
    years.
    
    	As for some of the NBA ref's were college ref's issue, that can
    be reversed.  I know an ex-NBA ref that is now a colleg ref.  Fact is,
    that most of the best college ref's don't want any part of the pro game
    and that is straight from the horses mouth.  
    
    	I also not saying that there aren't any good NBA ref's, which
    is stupid.  There are good NBA ref's, but from what I've seen and
    heard, in order to become an NBA ref, you have to undergo castration.
    
    	I guess, if the NBA ref's got more consistant and started calling
    the travels, 3 seconds, carries, illegal picks, I'd probably like them
    and the game a lot more.  But for my money, the NCAA plays the best
    "game" of hoops around.  They may not have the best players in the
    world (neither does the NBA, just check out the playgrounds), but the
    game is head and shoulders above the NBA, and part of that is because
    the college game is officiated "fairly" for everyone.
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

    re:.327
    
    Well said!!!11  Bravo!! and etc.
    
    Cowboy

    Here, here, bill!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    >	As for some of the NBA ref's were college ref's issue, that can
    >be reversed.  I know an ex-NBA ref that is now a colleg ref.  Fact is,
    >that most of the best college ref's don't want any part of the pro game
    >and that is straight from the horses mouth.  
    
    Sorta like the career minor leaguer telling his teammates that he just
    likes the bus rides.
    
    As a fan of both, anyone can say anything about the refs in any given
    game.  One is not the exclusive province of good officiating,
    consistent calls, logical rules interpretations or lack of favoritism,
    and neither is the other.  But the NBA with it's dramatically increased
    athleticism must be a much harder game to call, and I'm sure that's
    part of why their a much more exclusive group.
    
    My personal pet peeve is that blocking is so often called charging in
    the college game.  The best thing about the NBA, beyond the pinacle of
    athleticism, is that the refs for the most part let 'em play.
    
    Dan                                        

    re .327
    
    I don't agree with everything Goose said in his note, but I have to
    agree about the officiating mechanics of NBA refs. I'm speaking as a
    ref too, and I tried to focus on improving my mechanics by watching the
    pros.
    
    Baaaad mistake, Nazz. Either too much showmanship on calls, or not
    enough selling of the call. Like Goose said, poor positioning too often
    for a 3-ref game.
    
    And let's not forget the way some refs are intimadted by the Boston
    Garden, Aubrun Hills, or certain players.
    
    Dave Cowens was interview in the Globe last Sunday, and he talked about
    how refs got on him as a rookie. Cowens was famous for playing
    'defense' with everything but a knife, and one game he was called for
    two quick fouls on Artis Gilmore. A minute later, Cowens leveled Artis
    with a foul, and then told the ref something like, "Here's a *real*
    foul ! Are you going to let me play or what !"  Cowens said laughingly, 
    'I beat the living ---- out of Artis the rest of the night, and didn't
    get called for another foul"
    
    Then how about Earl Strom backing down in Game 1 of the Lakers-Rockets
    series ? 
    
    Nope Nazz, NBA refs lose something between Division 1 and the pros ....

    While I do appreciate the more balanced job the officials give to
    college basketball, I more appreciate the "let them play" philosophy of
    the NBA.  When I read the chapter in Earl Strom's book I really
    appreciated his philosophy over the calls.
    
    Again, the thing that burns my ass about college basketball and what
    frustrates me most about watching it is the endless parade to the line
    at the end of the game.  Bill, this has nothing to do with officiating. 
    It has everything to do with the rules and the coaching philosophy that
    dictates how teams will attempt to catch up.  When I watch a college
    game I pray for one of two things - a 20+ point blowout, so the coaches
    know this method won't work, or a game that's no more than a 3 point
    spread because it's counterproductive to do the fouling.  I would like
    to see a shot clock at 30 seconds instead of 45 seconds because I think
    45 seconds is too long.  I'd like to see fewer time outs allowed and
    not allow a team to call a time out after a made basket unless the
    clock is stopped for some other reason.  I'd like to see no time out
    allowed when someone is at the line (ie, no more "icing" a shooter). 
    
    As an even more radical concept, I'd like to see the fouled team
    allowed an automatic point on an intentional foul (and most fouls in
    the last 2 minutes committed by a team that's behind is an intentional
    foul, don't let anyone kid you), shoot a free throw and get the ball
    out of bounds at mid court.
    
    John

    re .330
    
    I'd love to see the NBA get refs that understand, but are not wowed, by
    player's athleticism. At first, you'd never see the refs cut a break
    for a player, because the ref would think, "No way he could do *that*
    without traveling." I remember Chet Walker and Calvin Murphy talk about
    how it took at least 2-3 years for them to get their pet moves allowed
    by refs - before that it was usually a travel.
    
    Now, the pendulum has swung the other way. You need a passport and
    three forms of ID to get called now ...

    Disagree, Dan, regarding the NBA being tougher to ref cause of better
    athletes.  From what I've heard the hardest games to ref are the ones
    with the worst players.  Generally, the better the players, the easier
    it is to referee.  (My ex-roommate was a_HS ref who enlightened me on
    this.)
    
    As to the end-of-game parade to the foul line in college, let's
    differentiate between proposing rule changes to avoid this and
    referee's doing their job.  The NBA has caved in badly on enforcing the
    rules of the game, all in the name of its FANtastic image no doubt.
    College officials on the other hand, have maintained the integrity of
    the game, even if it does render the end-of-game foul shooting boring
    to some.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Doc,
    
    You can take everything you said and apply it to the college game.  The
    refs are intimidated by the 'name' coaches and schools.  The NCAA
    Tourney, year in and year out, shows the gutless refs afraid to call
    the game fairly when a low seed is playing a high seed.  They usually
    call touch fouls against the low seeds, while allowing maiming by the
    high seeds.  
    
    THe 'star' players in college are protected, just like in the pros, and
    the star coaches get away with all types of intimidation.  I see little
    difference between pro refs and college refs.  
    
    JD
    
    PS:  Why is it that Michael Jordan can whack a guy on the arms and not
    get fouled, but Ron ANderson can't?  That's the problem with the pros. 
    That and ;traveling.  I watched most of the first half last night, and
    Jordan used double pivot feet at least 8 times, and Pippen travels a
    lot before he dribbles or shoots.   I always thought you could only
    have one pivot foot...

    Yes, Chris, the officials have maintained the integrity of the game by
    calling the fouls.  I applaud them for that.  On the other hand, I do
    feel the intentional foul is far more used as a tactic in college 
    basketball and in most cases the tactic is futile.  I would be willing
    to bet you if you took a sample of college games and a sample of NBA
    games where the point spreads were comparable, and watched the games
    objectively, you would find that more defensive plays worthy of being
    called fouls happen in the college games as opposed to in the pro
    games.  That's what I object to.
    
    I used to really love basketball but I'm sort of neutral to it now. 
    This is one of the reasons.  
    
    John 

    Actually Chris, Sports should be entertainment - whether you are
    playing them or watching them.  If the entertainment is missing - then
    you are missing a large part of what sports is about.
    
    Your friend, the ex-HS ref, may not have been such a hot ref.  Sounds
    like he pre-judges players, figuring that if they don't look good, they
    must foul a lot, and if they look good, then they mustn't foul a lot.
    
    It's the reason why the gawky looking kid usually get whistled for a
    foul anytime he's near the basll - the ref figures the kid musta done
    something....
    
    JD

    I disagree JD.  I haven't observed anywhere near the kind of
    officiating bias in the NCAA Tournament as you claim.  I suspect you're
    the victim of the American phenomenon of 'pulling for the underdog',
    and therefore are not watching the game through objective eyes.
    
    Coaches do try to intimidate the refs, no question.  But any coach
    worth his salt is working the refs from the get-go, so the advantage is
    minimal.  And it's very rare indeed that I observe a collegiate ref
    going easy on a "big-name" player.  The rarity is highlighted when
    compared with the NBA, where the stars can reach in and slap a guys
    forearm right in front of the refs face and not get whistled.
    
    re: "O"Hendry
    
    I have no doubt you're right, more calls will be made in college than
    the pros on similar action.  IMO this is goodness on the part of the
    collegiate refs.  They're calling the game the same at the beginning
    and the end, and they're making honest attempts to reduce the excessive
    contact that's becoming far-too-much the norm.
    
    I also agree that the end-of-game fouling is boring if you're a neutral
    observer.  Many rules changes have been proposed to help, but alas,
    television has all-too-often stepped in and used their purchased clout.
    
    For example, Dean has proposed a great rule change which would allow
    a team to call time-out to stop the clock (after a made basket) but for
    play to continue.  The networks said "Nada." to that idea, of course,
    cause it woulda squeezed out too many commercials.  :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Chris, I would feel better about the clock stopping after a made basket
    in the last 2 minutes like the NBA does.  It might speed things up a
    little bit.
    
    I also agree with you - to a neutral observer, it does matter a lot. 
    There is only one team I care about in college hoops but unlike the
    team you care about it's only on once or twice a year.  Even then it
    bothers me, but not so much.
    
    You missed one of my points on the last two minutes of a game.  If you
    watch the two games as I suggest and watch the contact regardless of
    what the officials call, I'm still willing to bet you that you'll find
    a lot fewer plays worthy of being called fouls in your given NBA game
    than in the comparable college game.  There won't be as many attempted
    steals, reach in fouls and so forth because the team with the ball
    isn't able to kill as much of the clock.  I argue the pros don't do it
    because they know it won't work.  (I will admit that part of the reason
    is possibly because the pros are better free throw shooters)  I think a
    shorter shot clock would help - there'd be less reason to foul.
    
    Ironically, I prefer to watch college hockey because the game starts
    out as a tighter officiated game and it allows the player to demonstrate
    the skills used in hockey more so than in pro hockey.  I think the
    effect in basketball is just the opposite - because the pro refs let
    the players play.  Makes a lot of sense, I like hockey because of
    better officiating - 'Saw, you better check that latest batch of
    Shrooms.  :-)
    
    As far as pro officiating goes, whether it's right or wrong, players
    and officials in any sport develop a relationship over the years and
    players do establish reputations.  Heck in baseball, players and
    umpires may be together for years if their careers through the minors
    parallel each other.  It has to color the officiating, no question
    about it.
    
    John 

    Chris,
    
    Wrong assumption, but nice try.  Big Name schools always get
    preferential treatment - as do some coaches.  Dean and Coach K are
    great at it - but even UNLV gets the calls in the tourney.  (Until they
    play Duke, that is...)
    
    And its very easy to blame it all on TV.  TV pays the bills for college
    hoops.  (and football, and the rest of the sports...)  But its a cop
    out.   
    
    Fans - since many of us watch TV - are too blame also.  Most of us want
    to watch the big name schools - we don't want some unknown playing for
    the title - we want Dean, Bob, Coach K, etc....
    
    And so everything is skewed so that it's a little easier for the big
    guy to make it.   TV is just giving us what we want.  
    
    College ball should go to a 30 second clock and change around the way
    the tourney works...
    
    JD

    
    re: .311
    
    Whoever called me a Celtic fan should get his mouth washed out with
    soap!!!!!!!!
    
    I started to watch the Bulls/76ers game last night but couldn't watch
    much of it. When they called the moving pick foul on Mahorn (which was
    the correct call), I turned it off because I had seen Grant and
    Cartright use the same move multiple times without the call. IT NEEDS
    TO GO BOTH WAYS!! Pippen and Jordan are both great athletes and NBA
    players, but I'm not sure either is a great basketball player. A
    great basketball player could do the stuff they do without traveling,
    elbowing the defender out of the way, using one pivot foot, etc. The
    same statement could be made about Magic, Barkley, Bird, McHale, Isiah,
    etc....  
    
    I just about threw up when I saw that Jordan made the All NBA defensive
    team. He does everything but swing an axe at whoever he is defending. A
    reach in foul that's automatic on anyone else never gets called on him.
    I get disgusted and just can't watch the games when the Bulls are
    playing. I'm sorry if I started a rathole, but the level of officiating
    in the NBA has gotten me to a state where it is very difficult to watch
    a game. I'll limit the rest of the playoffs to radio coverage. That way
    I can't see what assholes the officials are.
    
    I ran into a gentleman last week who is a former NBA ref. He mentioned
    that the current state of officials are mostly morons that the
    supervising official (whose name escapes me) has in is hip pocket and
    has intimidated to the point where they do the NBA's bidding rather
    that call the game correctly. I guess they get the product out there
    that they want. That's really a shame.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    A wise man once told me that if you went to sporting event and never
    noticed the ref/ump/official then you saw a great game....
    
    REK

    REK

Sort of like going to a good restaurant and never noticing the service.

rick

 John, your point on the reach-in etc in the last two minutes college vs.
 pro has validity but I think the difference can easily be pointed out
 by the difference in the shot clock. If the college game had a shorter 
 one the players would be less tempted to foul because they would get 
 the ball back sooner. With the 45 second clock you're forced as a coach
 to consider fouling at the 3 minute mark to increase your chances at
 getting shots. Versus in the pros where you aren't forced to foul till
 the last minute...

 On the game last night double drat!!!! A real heartbreaker. It's my fault.
 The comeback started once I threw my wife out of the living roon and wouldn't
 allow her to watch anymore of the game with me. I should have gotten her a
 hotel room last night...;^)

 For the the first three quarters man the champs sure looked like they were
 going to make Trilogy III a reality they still might. Loss of Parish was 
 big but with Mchale owning Lamby in the post what the heil is doing out at
 the three point line??? Rodman has to be the hustling rebounder in the league.
 Yes Hubie Lambieer's a good player but quit reminding me will ya! I swear
 Brown is petition for the Detroit job should Chuck step down...

 Thought the call on Lewis/Dumars could have went either way, what do you
 think Goose? If nothing else it certainly destroys the SnideAir, Docillogic
 of the Celts get all the calls....

 Celts must find the intensity they had in game 3 friday nite or else Bird
 can check into Mass General early...

 mike

    Mike, I've maintained that a shorter shot clock (say, 30 seconds)
    combined with an automatic clock stop after a made basket would
    probably take care of the problem.  I still like the ideas of no time
    outs after made baskets and an automatic 1 point, plus free throw, plus
    the ball on a deliberate foul.
    
    John

    
    Goose - you are dead meat in this argument of college vs pros:
    
    Doc and ACC_Chris agree with you!!!
    
    
    NAZZ

    Gotta admit I was impressed with the end-of-game officiating during the
    Pistons @ C's game.  Gutsy, correct calls that actually went against
    the home team.  Guess they were so obvious they simply *had* to call
    'em!
    
    Dean and I are against the 30-second shot clock, even though it would
    help Carolina.  The shorter the shot clock the greater the advantage to
    the stronger team.  Teams with less talent that like to milk the clock
    to pull the upset would be virtually put out of business.  
    
    Generally speaking, any college rule change that brings the game closer
    in line with the pros I'm against.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    Hey, Chris, when are you going to get off the dime and get this "Dean
    and I" book published?  I'm not sure (you can ask John Hendry) but if
    and when you co-author the book with Dean you might even qualify to 
    legally use that "we" word...
    
    glenn
     

    Since college hoops is just a minor league for the pros anyway, it
    makes sense to put pro rules into the college.  There are no
    significant rules differences between any of the other minor
    league/college and their pro counterpart (yeah, I know, aluminum bats,
    but you get my drift).

Well sorry celts fans but the chances of a Celtics VS Bulls eastern finals are
gone.  I know the celts could win the last 2 but I have a bad feeling that the
Television People think that a Detroit VS Chicago Rematch will create more
revenue.  They have in turn reflected that thought towards the NBA who has made
the message loud and clear to the Puppits (I mean refs).  Sorry celts fans, I 
just hope they decide on a Chicago VS Portland Finals......

Oh and on the reach in fouls, I thought if you got all ball and knocked it
away it wasnt a foul ????  What exactly is the definition of a reach in. I
can see when a guy reaches in and slaps at the players forearms being a foul
but when someone like, lets see...ah Jordan for example reaches in and gets
a ball and knocks it away (All Defensive Team type of play) why would or should
that be a foul ?????
							M_Air_Brooks

	Got to give "His Poutness" his due.  Laimbeer made some huge shots 
that kept the Celtics from ever getting the ball with the game tied.  
Dumars and Johnson were impressive for three quarters and the Pistons 
defense played great.  Of the young guys for the Celtics Brown and Reggie 
were great, but Shaw and Gamble took the gaspipe last night.  Gamble was 
such a defensive liability he had to be pulled out of the game and Shaw was 
taking the shots the Pistons defense wanted him to.  Helluva comeback
    by the Celtics.

				/Don

    
    
    	I think the main issue in the officiating business can be put into
    one word.  Consistancy!  The biggest beef I hear from players is that
    we should be consistant.  One game this is a foul, another game it is
    not.  And I should say that as a ref, I do try to be consistant. 
    That's why I have such a beef about the last 2 minutes of a game where
    the "let em play" attitude takes over.  Hey, I want nothing more than
    to "let em play" but let's also play by the rules.  I'm simply there
    to enforce the rules.  If, in my judgment, player A puts player B at
    a disadvantage, then it is a foul reguardless of the time on the clock.
    Problem is, that there are a lot of officials that simply "swallow the
    whistle" the last 2 minutes which causes a whole new set of problems.
    
    	At least in the college game, I believe there is consistancy across
    the board.  Granted, one conference might be slightly different in
    dealing with contact situations, but by and large, the college game
    is consistant.  But in the Pro's, I can watch 3 different games and get
    3 totally different interpretations on contact situations.  To me, the
    NBA guys need to get together work to a "standard" for all the games.
    That's not to say that some games will be played differently than
    others, but at least be consistant.  Part of the problem with the Pro
    game is that player A gets called for a foul for a certain contact
    situation.  The next night, player A is in the same situation and
    doesn't get the call.  Now, how is player A supposed to deal with a
    constantly changing standard?
    
    	As for favoratism in the college game, I don't think it is as big
    a problem as in the NBA.  Perfect example was this year in the NCAA's.
    Dean Smith who is a pretty powerful coach, got T'd in the semi-finals
    and to make matters worse, with only around 30 seconds left in the
    game.  In the NBA, that would of been ignored.  Billy Tubbs was also
    T'd and ejected in the NIT finals.  Take everyone's good friend Bobby
    Knight, he gets T'd all the time.  Fact is, the college guys are not
    afraid to throw the T, and it doesn't have to be for abusive language!
    
    	As for rule changes, this is one thing I think the college game 
    has done a good job with.  They know when there is a problem and
    without going overboard, they experiment for a year or two with a 
    possible change.  If it's seen as a solution, then the change is
    adopted.  If not, they try and work out another solution.
    
    	I would agree that the last 2 minutes of a college game can be
    misery, but that has been pointed out not as a referee problem, but
    at one involving coaches.  One main reason for rule changes is due to
    scumbag coaches that twist and bend a rule to gain an unfair advantage.
    I don't like the idea of stopping the clock after a made basket, but
    I would like to see that once a team is in the bonus, that they be 
    given the choice to inbound it, or take the shots.  Make the bonus
    also 2 shots.
    
    	As far as intentional fouls go, the college game is lightyears
    ahead of the NBA.  In the NBA, you have intentional and break-away
    fouls, whereas in the college game, there is simply an intentional
    foul.  The interpretation of the intentional foul is what is the
    problem.  Simply put, if the player makes an attempt to play the ball,
    you have NO intentional foul.  Now, in my position, I really have to
    judge whether player A "intentionally" went upside player B's head
    even though he technically went after the ball.  I do find though that
    once I call an intentional foul(s), the situation gets much better.
    I only wish that the NBA would follow.  If they would call a few more
    intentional fouls (get rid of the break-away and simply call it
    intentional), play would get cleaned up.  And I would give the player
    2 shots and the ball for any intentional foul.
    
    	Other sore spots with the NBA:  I'd love to see the NBA allow
    zones, then we could cut out all this illegal defense crap that is just
    that.  I mean, how can a team be allowed to play a trapping zone
    defense when the league has a no zone rule.  Then, if the NBA allowed
    zones, we could drop the foul limit down to 5 and put some strategy
    into the "other" 46 minutes of the game.  It's no joke that the old
    axiom still exists among many that, "you can turn on an NBA game in the
    last 2 minutes and not have missed a thing!"  I say, get some strategy
    back into the game, and in turn we would see more people play.  I would
    also eliminate the silly penalty for each quarter.  I say that the
    quarters are part of each half and a team should not shoot a bonus
    until say, the 10th foul of the half.  Then, each foul in the penalty
    is two shots.
    
    	Overall, my main emphasis would be to put back into the NBA game
    some defense and some strategy.  Guys like Rodman, Cooper, and DJ all
    stood out because they could play DEFENSE.  Trouble is, that all the
    teams go for Joe-offensive-threat and what the NBA is left with are a
    bunch of scoring machines that can't guard a paper bag.  When you do
    get a player that can play a little defense, the NBA treats it like
    the greatest thing since sliced bread.  Gee, if Rodman is the best
    DEFENSIVE player in the game, how's his salary compare to that of the
    best OFFENSIVE player?  Case closed.   Of course people come to see
    the slamma-jamma, but fans have also been known to like a "good game".
    That's part of the reason why the NCAA tourney is so popular, because
    it has all aspects of the game.
    
    	One final thought on the college game, and that is we shouldn't 
    forget that the rules are made for the best interest of all the schools
    participating in basketball, and not just for the top 30 powers.  The
    rules are meant to service the largest and smallest (you know, like
    UMASS...only kidding guys.) programs.  So, although some players can
    hit the 3 with great accuracy from the college distance, the overall
    picture is that the 3 in college ball is still only a 30% shot.  Again
    this year, the percentage for 3's went up, but the percent that were
    converted went down.  But most of us only see the top 1 percent of
    teams participating within the NCAA.  So we have to remember, that
    the college game is adjusted with all teams in mind and not just the
    large powers.
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

    FYI - The NBA did away with the breakaway foul this year.
    
    They still have the intentional foul and a flagrant foul (forearm
    to the head, etc).
    
    NAZZ

 >Thought the call on Lewis/Dumars could have went either way, what do you
 >think Goose? If nothing else it certainly destroys the SnideAir, Docillogic
 >of the Celts get all the calls....
    
    Well I was forced to watch the game on SC with Heinsohn announcing
    because my cable company is cruel and blacks out TNT.  Mike, Heinsohn
    is the most biased Celtic fan on earth that I know of since Johnny Most
    died (later painted and propped up with wire hangers to resemble life),
    and even Tommy had to admit it was an obvious charge.  Now if Heinsohn
    can say so, so can Mike Childs, can't he?
    
    Celts get more of the close calls when they really need them than any
    other team in basketball history.  This one wasn't close.
    
    Dan

    >Trouble is, that all the
    >teams go for Joe-offensive-threat and what the NBA is left with are a
    >bunch of scoring machines that can't guard a paper bag.  When you do
    >get a player that can play a little defense, the NBA treats it like
    >the greatest thing since sliced bread.
    
    You've got it backwards here, Bill.  Ask any NBA coach.  There's lots
    of guys who can come into the league and shoot, pass, score, etc. 
    The offense is so good that almost no one can stop it.  Pros play a
    much better man-to-man defense than college; it just takes a couple of
    years to learn how to do it right.
    
    Dan

 and disappoint you Dan? Never, in fact I now know it's a lousy call!!!
 The offensive players is entitled to one step you can just step in and
 undercut him like Dumars did. Brown's was obvious but Reggie got screwed...

 mike

    
    re: Dan
    
    	You gotta be kidding...Most of the NBA players don't even know what
    letter of the alphabet the letter D comes after let alone know what it
    stands for.  Taking a couple of years to learn the ropes usually 
    translates into learning how to grab, hold, etc.  In other words, it
    means forgetting anything you learned in college.  There are some good
    college coaches that teach their players how to play defense.
    
    	re: General about the game
    
    	The offensive call on Lewis was nothing more than Dumars flopping.
    So much for the theory of "let em play".  It's no secret that the 
    Piston's are a team of "floppers" and it's good to see that Dumars has
    finally "learned" how to play defense...after a few years.  Reggie hit
    Dumars about as hard as I hit the keys on the terminal.  Trouble was,
    Dumars did a great job of selling the call to the official, and it
    worked.  Now, the second offensive foul (on Brown) was more legit.  
    The first one though was pure "hollywood".
    
    	I really shouldn't say those things because the rabid celtic fans
    take that and run with it all over saying the ref's jobbed the C's.
    Although I like the Celtic's, I don't kill for them.  Hey, I would of
    said the same thing if the roles were reversed.  
    
    	And another thing, the last 2 minutes of these NBA games is getting
    out of hand!  Last night, it was a constant parade to the foul line...
    can't they just let 'em play?  :-)
    
    								bill..g.
    

    
    Certainly that one play didn't decide the game: 
    
    Bird's three point attempt was, let's say, ill-advised.
    Lambeers' 3 (?) clutch baskets at the end kept the Piston in the lead.
    Parish's injury and lastly...
    
    The Celtics swoon for three quarters..
    
    I just hate it when the game is decided because of a referee 
    judgement call.
    
    		Bob Cohen
    
    

    
    > Celts get more of the close calls when they really need them than any
    > other team in basketball history.  This one wasn't close.
    
    Not this year.
    
    glenn
    

    
    > Celts get more of the close calls when they really need them than any
    > other team in basketball history.  This one wasn't close.
    
>>>>!!!!!    Not this year.
    
    
 I'd type more but I don't want to openly weap here in this mano-mano 
 conference...

 ;^)

 mike
    

Ya, that goaltending call on McHale was real close! Yup the Celt's
definitely got ALL the calls against Detriot(tm).


Steve

    The chances of_a most excellent reunion are looming large, what with
    the Lakers and Bulls looking strong down the stretch.
    
    Of what am I speaking?  Why, the gathering of three (3) of the starters
    of Carolina's 1982 champeenship, team, that's what.
    
    MICHAEL JORDAN
    JAMES WORTHY
    SAM PERKINS
    
    Oh, how sweet it will be!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Maybe just the GOOD teams get the calls?  (sarcasm implied)...
    
    At least I don't have a cap to wear this summer....
    
    Can't believe the foul difference yesterday.  Guess some games are
    called by reputation....

Oh Gawd.  I can just see James, Sam and Michael doing the center court smooch 
this year, a la Magic, Isiah, and Mark.  Just what the NBA needs!

=Bob=

re: Lakers vs Bulls (possibly)

Maybe Elden Campbell and Horace Grant can get together and pump each
other up...

TTom

    My "set seen" is messed up big time, but I'll enter this here.  As we
    all know Dee Brown is the real thing!  Shaw's still a good basketball
    talent.  Who knows how much the sprained ankle hurt him?
    
    Toward the end of the year I thought McHale had lost the desire, but
    after watching him Friday night, "please Kevin, don't retire".  I don't
    give a hoot how ugly he is.  The better team won, but at least the
    Celts went down with pride, and had that bogus goaltending call not
    been made, who knows how the series would have turned out.  Is it time
    for instant replay?
    
    					Steve

    
    Chuck Daly has a TV show with one of our local sportscasters and
    they were commenting on the Celtics series.  Daly said that Dee
    Brown really impressed him during the series.  Daly even said
    that Dee Brown's name is on the list for possible point guards for
    the olympic team.
    
    To quote Chuck "he is going to be a superstar in this league"
    
    \pjb

    ACChriss brought up an interesting point of discussion in the Hornets
    note:  NBA teams aren't built around centers anymore.  Is this a
    chicken and egg thing?  Is the dearth of dominating centers from
    which to build the cause of this alleged phenomenon?  San Antonio is
    certainly trying it with David Robinson.  The Knicks have been trying
    it with Patrick Ewing.  There is also Akeem and the Rockets.

    re: McHale's goaltend
    
    Like I said over in the Pistons' notes: One point during the 4th Q the
    ref's call were so one-sided even the game announcers made a comment
    that the Celts were getting all the breaks on the ref's calls.  The
    goaltend must have been a makup call.
    
    re: dominating centers
    
    It's funning how all 4 remaining teams have reasonably simmilar lineups. 
    All have good, if not dominating, big guard.  I mean it's scaring to
    think the Dumars might be the weakest of the big guards.  The guy who
    won MVP of the tournement 2 yrs. ago.
    
    Commander Scott

    Correct, Mac.  The era of the dominating center leading his team to a
    champeenship is a thing of the past.  Why?  Basketball has become a
    game dominated by quickness.  The big guy in the middle's ability to
    radically alter the oppositions offense has been *greatly* diminished
    as a result.  There's very little a Ewing/Robinson can do when Jordan,
    Drexler, or Worthy come driving to the hoop.  They're going to have the
    ball slammed in their face, and if they beg to disagree it'll simply be
    a 3-point play.  
    
    On the other end the big center is unable to dominate offensively. 
    Double/Triple teaming when he gets the ball down low render it an
    impossibility, and the amount of pushing and shoving that a smaller
    defensive player can get away with is tantamount to assault.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

 Chris stick to the colleges where your forte is. You still need a dominating
 center to win otherwise Golden State would have blown the Lakers away. You
 still need someone in that lane that the guards fear, who rejects a few shots
 and gives you a low post game for when the peremiter game is off. While 
 Detroit has proven that three guys can make one dominating center if they
 didn't have the presences of Lambieer, Salley, and Edwards where would they
 be? Magic may have led the Lakers in the 80's but when they absolutely
 had to have two they still went to the Captain. Celts had Parish, Walton
 and effectively used McHale in the post. Philly had Moses....

 Cmon name a team that won a championship without a real center......

    And in cases where a team doesn't have a real 'true' dominating center,
    they've either gone to a combination - like the Pistons, or have gotten
    teh stud power forward (The 'Blazers).  Buck Williams provides the
    rebounding and inside tough defense that Duckworth didn't give the
    Blazers.
    
    JD

    Funny, but Wilt was asked that question recently. He feels that a lot
    of topday's centers: 1) Don't have good low-post skills, and 2)Doesn't
    have a good low-post mindset. He felt that a lot of big men don't
    demand the ball in the low blocks the way they used to in his day.
    
    FWIW, I think he's right on this one. I see guards with better low-post
    skills than centers today. Look at the Lakers, they have Magic, Worthy,
    Perkins, and even Divac to operate in the low post. All have a solid
    (at the very least) back-to-the-basket game.
    
    And it is a big reason why the Lakers are where they are now. Maybe
    they don't have the dominate center, but they have tough inside play
    that you want from that spot. Right now the sum of the whole is greater
    than it's parts. That HAS been a big trend over the last 5 years. But
    I'd say that Mike is right. Magic may be the MVP of the 1980's.
    
    But the Lakers haven't won a title since Kareem hung them up. Those two
    facts are not unrelated.
    
    Dr M

    I have read that a lot of big kids who could potentially be centers
    don't want to do the grunt work needed, but would rather play power
    forward (like for example Derrick Coleman) or even handle the ball,
    like Magic Johnson.  Because of wanting to be more visible, and because
    of so many tight zone defenses, center play seems to be moving outside
    and away from the basket.
    
    John

 or because they're wusses like one Ralphie Sampson....Yeah I know his knees
 are the real downfall of his career and his coach didn't help but had this
 guy had the center mentality of a Russ, Kareem, Wilt, Nate, Wes, Reed, or
 a Walton the Rockets would have won a championship or two....

 Imagine Dave Cowens' heart and mind in Sampson's body and in Celtics' green...
 We'd be talking like 20 plus championships easy by now.....

 ;^)

    Double-teaming.  When Nate Thurmond was bodying Wilt inside, he would
    have crushed any teammate who came in to give help.  The game was a
    more honest man-to-man when centers dominated.  As the skills have
    changed and quickness risen, the ability to cope with another team's
    center has risen dramatically.
    
    What the NBA is today is defenses who are constantly looking to double
    team anyone inside with the ball, and offenses which are looking to
    isolate a player inside man-to-man.  If the offense wins that game,
    they'll get a good shot attempt.  If they don't win that game, they'd
    better have the inside man who can know how and when to kick it back
    out, and an offense that can swing to the open man, and an open man
    that can hit the J, or dump back into the post.
    
    It's the most effective defense there is today which neutralizes that
    other teams highest percentage shots, short of an outright zone.  If
    Robinson does develop a postup game, he'll encounter the same
    difficulties as Ewing and Hakeem.  The patience and skill required to
    exploit the matchup advantage of a talented center is not a diverse
    enough offense to keep the other team's defense in trouble.  Everyone's
    talented enough to believe he can score and the amount of standing
    around for that small percentage win leaves a lot of unhappy teammates.
    
    There is a very similar problem with the styles of offense, half-court,
    vs. motion vs. pure fast break.  A team better be able to do them all
    in today's NBA.  Weaknesses are immediately, and advantages are
    nuetralized almost as fast. 
    
    Dan
    
    

    From watching the first two games, I'd say the refs won't gie the
    Pistons a break in this season.  The networks must want Michael to get
    a ring.  
    
    Cliff Levingston almost takes a head off with a forearm smash, and no
    foul - yet the Pistons get 3 flagrant fouls called.  Paxson pulls
    Vinnie Johnson to the ground, and VJ gets called for a foul (trip..)
    Scottie Pippen throws a punch and doesn't get ejected.  Against Philly,
    Manute BOl got kicked out of a game, and fined, for doing stuff much
    less flagrant than Pippen.  Ah, the BUlls are wearing the refs favored
    hats this year.    They got 20 more foul shots.   The 5 Bulls starters
    got a total of 8 fouls called against them, with the front court of
    Pippen, Grant and Cartwright amassing a whopoping 4 personals combined.
    What a sham.   (The Pistons starting 5 got called for 20 fouls, with
    Dumars fouling out and Laimbeer and Thomas getting 5)
    
    Its a joke.  I haven't enjoyed watching NBA playoffs this year as much
    as past years.  This year the officiating seems so much worse - I know
    there's a lot of kidding and ragging in this conference about
    officiating, but I've yet to watch a game I'd call well-officiated.
    
    The refs have been intimidated by the Jordanaires.  I've never seen Joe
    Dumars complain - but he's had reason to.  
    
    THe Pistons aren't getting the big men into the game at all.  Some
    credit goes to the Bulls defense (being allowed to hold, grab and hack
    without fear of the whistle certainly helps)
    
    Love to see the Pistons make a series out of this...
    
    JD

    re .378
    
    Give us a break Mike. He avergaed  20 ppg, and 10 boards while playing
    with a very talented, but also immature center in Hakeem. Don't kid
    yourself - if it wasn't was Sampson's 'wuss' talent, the Twin Towers
    would have never worked (and hakeem himself has said as much). 
    
    I'll be the first to admit that Sampson needed to work on his inside
    game some more, but you're reaching big-time Mike. 
    
    Of course, you are still sore about Lil Jerry getting that
    well-deserved a** whipping back in 86 ....
    
    Doc

    Could someone post the score of last nights Laker/Trailblazers game?
    
    Inquiring minds want to know.
    
    Chuck

Portland won: 109-98.

TTom

    Give ME A Break...Detroit gets called for more fouls...Yes your
    absoulutly right they do get called for more fouls..BUt hey guess
    what..No big secret here..The Pistons are a dirty, agressive team
    its funny how (-2 or -3) back you mention things about the bulls
    well how about the rodman forarm to purdue's back then the shove
    off and walks down the court...Purdue complains about it opens
    his mouth (talking trash to rodman) and its a double T (one on
    each person) Didnt make much sense to me, all it did was cause
    detroit to attempt to get away with it more.  They were attempting
    to cause harm to jordan and company all night.  Were not talking
    simple fouls there FLAGRANT as you can get.  Bulls up by 2 and
    traveling back to Detroit, I just hope the refs keep the game in
    line or someone (on the bulls team) is going to get hurt.  In
    game 3 if the refs let detroit man handle the bulls, when they
    come back to chicago I bet that the bulls are minus at least 1
    player....Put an end to the violence, this isnt HOCKEY.
    							M_Air_Brooks

    Can you believe all of this whining by the Celtic fans about the
    refereeing?  I mean, the Celtics have been eliminated from the playoffs
    and yet the whining still goes on.

Like I am immensely enjoying this bickering! I thought for a long time that,
yes, it was only the Celtics fan that whined about the refs. At least that 
is what I have garnered from this conference. And oh ya, the Celts get all
the calls! HA HA HA HA HA HA!! 


Steve

 Sorry Doc but I ain't reaching at all. Sampson was a wuss plain and simple.
 7' 4" he should average 20 and 10 by default alone. I ain't hurt over the
 Schiting thing we won the championship that year what do I have to hurt
 about? If Sampson had any heart he would have won an NCAA championship
 and atleast 1 NBA championship. He wanted to shoot jumpers and pass the
 ball he never wanted to get down and dirty like he should have cause if he
 had had half of Cowens' heart he would have dominated the paint like Kareem
 did in his years with the Bucks....

 All the tools but no gut...that Sampson in a nutshell case closed....

 stop now before you take another beating like the Russ/Wilt debate....

 mike

    Re: -1
    
    ...and he's a head case on top of that!  I'd school Admiral Robinson if
    I had his body.
    
    Mike

How many Championship rings does Chuck Nevitt have ?

how about Scott Hastings ?

    I refuse to whine, just point out the difference in free throws.
    
    re Perdue-Rodman:  What was the problem there?  No punches thrown, no
    one got tossed.  Rodman got called for a foul, they yelled at each
    other, they both got T's.  What's the problem?
    
    re Pippen: No one's going to get tossed unless it's really bad.  A T
    seemed reasonable.
    
    re: flagrant fouls.  Hard to figure these out.  Salley deserved one I
    guess.  Dumars?  No way.  I forget the third one.  Hard to understand
    some of the others not getting called the other way except that they
    weren't called at all.  (Some on Aguirre come to mind.)  But that's the
    way they're calling it.  It's consistent.  Pistons have to deal with
    it.
    
    -Walt

I forget what game it was, but during the Pistons vs Celts series the
Pistons went to the line 54 times(or around there?) to the Celts 24 or
so. Talk about disparity. The refs contorl the game TOO much in my opinion.
It really makes the game hard to watch. There is NO way that one team is 
committing double the amount of fouls than the other team. Not in the 
playoffs anyway. It's sickening to see the refs favor the home team so much.
I allway's thought that a rule is a rule and if you break the rule you 
get whistled for it. You can bet the house that the Pistons will have less
fouls called onthem in the Palace.



Steve

    The Pistons and Bulls are off until Saturday. One heck of a long break.
    It will certainly allow the Pistons to heal somewhat, and get some
    much-needed rest, and may very well disrupt the Bulls momentum.
    
    I expect Game 3 to very different from the first two ...
    
    Doc

    re .387
    
    7'4" so he should have 20/10 by default ?
    
    So much for logic ... 
    
    Mike, what about Eaton, Bol, Alton Lister, and other 7 footers ?
    
    NCAA championships are won by *teams*, and UVa wasn't that impressive
    IMO. Terry Holland rode them as far as Sampson was going to take them,
    but of all the big-man teams of the post-Walton era, I'd say that UVa
    had teh weakest supporting cast. But that's another story.
    
    Very insightful that you think that the Rockets should have beaten the
    Celtics in 86. 
    
    Are you saying that the veteran 66-16 team was inferior to the Rockets
    Mike ? Or did your emotions get away from you ?
    
    Doc

    Air Brooks,
    
    You'vbe bought the Pistons are a dirty team line - hook, line and
    sinker.   They've never been a dirty team.  Players like Pippen and
    JOrdan simply whine about it to the refs all the time.  Bill Cartwright
    has broken more bones with his elbows then the whole Pistons' team has.
    
    The Rodman-Purdue exchange - wasn't that Pippen-Rodman?  Didn't Pippen
    take a swipe at Rodman - and not get thrown out.  When about a week
    earlier Manute Bol got chucked for something less flagrant??
    
    Will Purdue?  The guy goes over the top on almost every rebound.  HE
    moves both pivot feet whenever he get ready to shoot.
    
    The Bulls have enjoyed an unbelieavable advantage at the line.  
    Chicago is playing 'aggressive defense' so they don't get called. 
    Detriot (tm) does the same thing, and gets called for being dirty.
    
    The only player on Detroit who does things that can be considered cheap
    is Laimbeer.  That's well documented.  
    
    
    And this 'talking trash' stuff gives me belly laughs.  The players are
    always talking to each other on the court.  You see Bird and Person
    woofing it up.
    
    All of a sudden, Michael God Jordan has started this "Detriot talks
    Trash" bit - like the Bulls don't?  What complete B.S.
    
    I'd like to see a game decided by the players, and not by the press or
    the refs.  Chicago may very well still win - which is fine by me - I
    root for neither Chicago nor Detriot (TM).
    
    JD

    -3
    The Rodman, Purdue incident was very clear on the reply, rodman throw
    a forarm into the back of purdue and then pushed off on his head as he
    said something (cute) to purdue...And purdue in term had a few words.
    Rodman got the foul but the T should have been on just rodman, purdue
    had every right to be upset.
    
    The 3rd Flagrant foul was Jordan cutting thru 2 defenders in the lane
    the first one (I think lambiar) mauls him from the front and didnt
    allow any chance of a shot, this was ok, a hard foul but not flagrant
    but at the same time Thomas comes accross with a forearm to jordans
    face and slams him down....Deffinate flagrant foul with intent to hurt
    and Id like to see more along the lines of 2 shots, the ball and the
    player tossed out for things like this.
    
    There's always going to be missed calls, and this missed calls in this
    game were pretty even.  The difference in fouls is just Detroit getting
    caugth doing what they always do.  They would take 25-30 less foul
    shots a game if the refs payed attention after the shot.  CHicago
    played a great, clean, controlled game...And won it..Now the hard part
    we all know that in Detroit, the pistons will get away with a little
    more and this could mean Permanant damage to someone, detroit showed
    that there not afraid of the refs and will Hard Foul whenever they want
    to....How hard are the fouls going to get if they think there going to
    be able to get away with them ???  Only Saturday will tell
    GO BULLS !!!!!!
    							M_Air_Brooks

    re Mac:
    
    
    "Whinig about the refs"
    
    I"ve said that I feel that the officiating this year has been bad in
    all playoff games - no matter what one I've watched.  That goes for the
    Celts, Bulls, Pistons, Lakers, Suns - everyone.  
    
    The disparity and inconsistency of the officiating has taken away from
    the games, IMO.
    
    From the bonehaid call in Game 1 Suns-Lakers, to the joke that's called
    officiating in the Bulls_Pistons series, - the officiating has been
    consistently bad.
    
    my opinion - no whining.   The refs have, IMO, let themselves become
    influenced too much by certain players or the media.  IF the refs were
    a jury, the case would be thrown out of court because of jury
    prejudice.
    
    It's not completely new - the stars have gotten preferential treatment
    for years - Magic, Kareem, McHale, Bird, Jordan, etc...and the Greg
    Kite's of the world have been whistled unfairly - but it seems to me to
    have gotten worse.  IMO, the extra ref has not helped one bit.
    
    JD

    I thought I remember reading that the Bulls were trying to emulate the
    Pistons style of "aggressive defense".  They have even beefed up the
    team a bit.

    So Air Brooks:
    
    when Bill Cartwright chucks his elbows out and destroys faces like he
    did to Hakeem - that's not flagrant?  I don't buy the 'It's part of his
    game B.S."  I've watched Mr. Bill from College to the Knicks to the
    Bulls.  He only throws his elbows when he wants to intentionally hurt
    someone.  But I guess that doesn't count - cuz he's on the Bulls,
    right?
    
    So using your Rodman-Purdue analogy - what about when Pippen shoved
    Rodman, and Rodman didn't retaliate?  Looked like Scottie should have
    gotten a foul and a T - but they called double T's.  Be consistent Air. 
    You could be an NBA ref...
    
    JD

    NO I Couldnt be a ref, I didnt see the Pippen Rodman Incident, I 
    missed the first 10mins of the 1st qtr So Im assuming that this
    either happened in the first or I missed 30seconds somewhere along
    the lines when this happened.  As for Cartwright, even the announcers
    fell hes been incorrectly labeled.  In the detroit game Edwards came
    down on BILLS foot and twisted his ankle, the announcers where joking
    about it, another injury at the hands of MR Bill.  The Hakeem incident
    was reviewed and determined not to be intentianal...Ill take the
    professionals opinions over yours.  If the REAL REFS and THE LEAGUE
    decided that MR BILLS elbow to Hakeem was intentianal so be it, but
    they didnt.......GO BULLS.....
    							M_Air_Brooks

    JD, IMO you used the phrase IMO too much.
    
    Mark.

    >Can you believe all of this whining by the Celtic fans about the
    >refereeing?  I mean, the Celtics have been eliminated from the playoffs
    >and yet the whining still goes on.
    
    I know you're being sarcastic, but if you want to see some typical
    Celtic fan whining, take a look in the Celtics conference.  It was
    pointed out to me that there's probably >100 notes complaining about
    the refs calls turning the series around and a whole note with tons of
    replies accusing that a fix was in.
    
    Dan

    >It's not completely new - the stars have gotten preferential treatment
    >for years - Magic, Kareem, McHale, Bird, Jordan, etc..
    
    Just a reminder, JD.  Kareem got reverse preferential treatment.  The
    refs for years allowed his defender far more leeway than any other
    player in basketball.
    
    There's no doubt that Jordan is the most ref-preferred player in the
    NBA right now, is there?
    
    Dan

 Doc you word twister you. Of course the 86 Rockets weren't better than the
 Celtics but they could have had a shot in 83 against Philly and certainly
 in 85 against the Celtics but they couldn't get past the Lakers which beats
 the hell out of me.

 In college he had a strong team a couple of thsoe years Jeff Lamp comes to
 mind as one who went on to a pro career and I think possibly another player
 or two. Certainly if he chooses to get involved in this silly dicussion
 BoB Hunt can help.

 Eaton was a car mechanic, Lister isn't 7' 4" and in the case of Bol and
 Eaton neither played basketball all their lives like Ralphie did. I haven't
 called Sampson a bad ball player just a gutless waste of potential. Why is
 that so hard for you to live with?

 mike

re .404

> Doc you word twister you. Of course the 86 Rockets weren't better than the
> Celtics but they could have had a shot in 83 against Philly and certainly
> in 85 against the Celtics but they couldn't get past the Lakers which beats
> the hell out of me.

    Mike you fack twister you.
    
    I doubt seriously if the Rockets would have had a shot against Philly
    in '83, becuase Raplh was still in college, the Rockets had just traded
    Moses to Philly for the #1 pick (Sampson) and Calwell Jones, and went
    14-68 that season. In the 1985, Ralph had two years in the league,
    Akeem 1, and no backcourt. The Lakers had possibly their strongest club
    in 85, and should have swept the C's in 4, but blew it plain and
    simple.
    
    No wonder it beats the hell out of you ...
    
> In college he had a strong team a couple of thsoe years Jeff Lamp comes to
> mind as one who went on to a pro career and I think possibly another player
> or two. Certainly if he chooses to get involved in this silly dicussion
> BoB Hunt can help.

    Jeff Lamp was an NBA stiff. What we in SPORTS called a
    NBA-Shaughnessy(tm). In college he had a decent jumper, and that's it.
    Sorry Mike, but Akeem and Ewing (to name two) played on much better
    all-around ballclubs in my opinion.
    
> Eaton was a car mechanic, Lister isn't 7' 4" and in the case of Bol and
> Eaton neither played basketball all their lives like Ralphie did.
    
    Eaton played at UCLA. Try again. The point is that height insures
    nothing. Raplh had talent, and applied it much better than you ever
    gave him cerdit for.
    
> I haven't called Sampson a bad ball player just a gutless waste of potential.
    
    A little like saying, "I didn't kill him, just shot him 20 times with a
    sawed-off !" :-)
    
    Look, Sampson was the 2nd coming, nor did he have a true center
    mindset. But to call him gutless ? Preposterous ....
    
    Doc

================================================================================
Note 6.401          The National Basketball Association (NBA)         401 of 405
VAXWRK::SCHNEIDER "Sununu escaped from Animal Farm"  11 lines  23-MAY-1991 13:00

                    -< Are there poorer sports in sports? >-

	Well your name comes to mind...

    re: Air_Brooks
    
    If the Pistons are such low-life cheap-shot artists, why are the Bulls
    doing everything they can to emulate the Pistons?  I mean, they
    publicly stated they need to be more physical than Detroit.  Jordan has
    been in a ref's face on every foul called on him.
    
    
    And as a general comment, in spite of being a Pistons fan and my
    personal preference for good defensive teams, I don't like the abusive
    physical play that the NBA INCOURAGES.  6-7 years ago the Pistons had
    for serveral years running one the highest scoring offenses in the
    pros.  They ran a fast break, outside shooting game, similar to the GS
    Warriors.  How'd they do - each year they would get elimitated in the
    1st or 2nd round of the playoffs.  Daily changed the team from 
    offensive-oriented to a defensive-oriented physical team and now they
    are consistently winning titles.
    
    My personal opinion is that it's going to get worse, not better. 
    Physical, agressive, even dirty style wins.  And NBA teams are emulate
    a winning style until the NBA changes the rules of the game.
    
    
    Commander Scott

    I agree the BULLS are getting away with AS MUCH as the Pistons, but
    the pistons still foul more and therefore get caught more and the
    bulls travle to the free stripe more often.  The NBA doesnt have to
    change its rules just enforce some of the rules they have.  I think
    there starting to do it and thats why detroit is down 2-0.  If the
    bulls are intimdating the refs, thats great, the DETROIT DEFENSE
    GREATNESS has been fooling the refs for years its about time there
    eyes are opened.  If the Bulls can keep there COOL and dont get an
    eye of an eye attitude the Free throw shoots should continue to favor
    the bulls.  Pippen and Purdue, even though they had reason to be upset
    are going to have to keep there heads...Take the cheap shot just use
    some of detroit acting steps to get the foul....The extra point is
    worth more than the retaliation Technical your bound to get.  Its up
    to Phil Jackson, if he keeps the team calm and keeps them from falling
    into detroits game plan (no retaliation) the bulls should take games
    3 and 4 at detroit.  If the game is played by the players and scored
    by skill alone the Pistons will be swept...But chances are the refs 
    will attempt to create parity in the Foul calls and give the Pistons
    some HUGE breaks in game 3, hopefull if there going to give them game
    3 they even it out by then so game 4 can be for real.
    
    BULLS in 91...Michael Jordan for President
    							M_Air_Brooks

    Well, I've been waiting all season to say this and since I'll be out
    next week, I'll have to put it this way:
    
    After this weekend, all John Salley will have to do is be black and
    watch TV.
    
    	--dan'l

    re Air:
    
    After the refs called the foul on Rodman, he walked away. Perdue went
    after him and pushed and clawed people to go after him.  How can that
    not deserve a T?
    
    Pippen definitely threw a punch at Rodman.  A T was giving him the
    benefit of the doubt.
    
    Listened to Celtic fans whine on WEEI the other night about why they're
    watching instead of playing.  They say the Pistons are too rough and
    you the defense should be banned.  That Rodman didn't deserve the
    defensive player of the year.  I think they night before must have been
    "McHale wasn't goaltending" night.  I'll give the C's fans in here
    credit, they're not whining like that.  Someone called in and mentioned
    1) in game 6 Bird was the one with the flagrant foul.  2) That despite
    the host's implications, that Laimbeer isn't useless, but one of the
    top rebounders in the game year in and year out 3) Most of the time,
    Detriot's (tm) bark is worse than it's bite and 4) The Bulls are
    shooting 20 more free throws a game. I guess they can't admit, the old
    guard's too old and the young guard's not experienced enough for the
    playoffs....
    
    -Walt

    Re Airless Babbling Brooks
    
    If you think the Pistons defense has been due to being dirty - then you
    don't know anything about hoops and are too blinded and biased and too
    much in love with Jordan to give credit where credit is due.
    
    The Pistons are a throw back when it comes to defense.  They remind me
    of the Knicks championship teams, the old Wes Unseld bullets, the
    Celtics with Russell.  It good hard defense.  Today's pampered
    superstars and offensive-minded, FANtastic, slamma-damma dunkaholic
    fans can't comprehend good defense when they see it.  They'd rather put
    dresses on the guys and let the prima donnas like Jordan travel and do
    360 dunks.   
    
    Both teams play good hard defense.  It should be treated equally. 
    Obviously, you have lots of sour grapes with the Pistons, and can't see
    through your Jordan Boutique blinders.
    
    JD

    re: .410
    
    Not true. If Rodman had walked away after the foul nothing would have
    happened but he shoved Perdue little bit to intimidate him. Perdue had
    all the resason to go after Rodman. They should have called T only on
    Rodaman because he was the one who started it. Go watch the taped
    again. 
    
    Anway Pistons as usual try to win with intimidation and it will not
    work on an experienced team. BTW Bulls are leading 3-0.
    
    -- Ram Nori

    
    I only saw the highlights on ESPN, but of the half a dozen clips of
    Saturday's game that they showed, The Bulls defense was fouling away on
    all of them. I didn't see a clean defensive play by Micheal or Pippen
    in any of the highlights. Cheif was a drive by Jordan, who flips the
    ball to Pippen over his shoulder, but then still moving, clears out the
    defender for Pippen by a rolling block. They also showed Jordan hacking
    the hell out of the Piston driving to the basket, getting a little ball
    and blocking the shot. Every time I think about that overrated piece of
    S**t making the all defensive team I want to puke. NBC wants the Bulls
    and the NBA will deliver them. TV rules.
    
    Dennis Faust
     

    
    re: .413
    
    BTW the over the shoulder flip was made by Pippen and was called for 
    charging. Did you see the clip where Edwards elbowed Jordon just below
    the ribs ?  Well, too bad you missed a great two on one defensive play
    by Jordon.  
    
    -- Ram Nori 

    Before anyone starts complaining about the officials, lets congratulate
the Bulls on an incredible series.  They dominated the Pistons in a way
I didn't think was possibly.  Jordan (did someone actually say overrated
sh@t) is hands down the best player in basketball and a excellent
defensive player (preferential treatment withstanding).  Pippen is now
constantly playing at all-star level and the Bulls are getting major
contributions from many players (Grant, Paxson, Mr. Bill and even the subs
are doing the job (Purdue, Armstrong, Livingston).  Their offense did
whatever they wanted against the still excellent Piston D.  I was amazed by
their poise as Jordan and Pippen would drive the lane and either shoot over
the top over an defender or kick it back out.  When the ball came out the Bulls
would move it around to get either an uncontested shot or throw a bullet
pass inside (usually to Grant).  They always seemed to make the extra pass
while not forcing it.  Quite a performance!  Chicago's D was equally
excellent.

    IN the later stages of game three the Pistons showed why they were
champions as they fought hard for every rebound, loose ball, etc.  Although
I don't like the Pistons, I was very impressed with there effort.  You
have to love Vinnie.

    
    THe Bulls press really seemed to bother the Pistons.  Chicago shouldn't
enjoy the same success against Portland or LA since those teams have bigger
guards how can throw over the top of a trap.  

    I think LA will take Portand in 6 after losing the next game in Portland
and even though I think LA has more talent I have to choose the Bulls in 6 or
7.  Chicago seems to be playing their best ball ever and at the right time.
The Jordan/Pippen combo will give LA fits and the Pippen/Worthy matchup 
will be very important.

                                                                Alan

    Random playoff thoughts:
    
      - I don't know what was more telling about the end of Chi/Det 
       	game 4, the Detroit fans shouting 'Go LA' or the Pistons leaving 
    	the floor with time still showing on the clock, refusing to wish the 
        Bulls luck in the Finals.  Both showed a total lack of class and
    	sportmanship.  But that was never what the Pissed-ons(tm) were 
    	known for anyway.  
    
      - As NAZZ hinted at in the Celtics conference, the 'Blazers 
        are the '90s equivalent of the Hawks throughout the '80s:
        lots of talent, no heart.
    
      - Once LA disposes of Portland, the Bulls/LAKERS final will 
        reunite 3 members of the '82 NC championship squad(Perkins,
        Worthy, and Jordan[anyone seen Fred Brown :-)]).  It will also 
        probably the highest rated Finals series since the Boston/LA 
    	clashes of the mid 80's.
    
      - Chuck Daly would make a perfect politician, especially after 
        his answer to Ahmad Rashad's inquiry about the 'Bad Boys' image 
        prior to the start of Q3.  After seeing Rodman blatantly push Pippen 
        off the court in the first quarter, I don't think he believes his	
    	own words.  Keep up the campaign Chuck, could come in handy at
    	Barcelona. :-)
    
      - Biggest surprise:  Golden State.  Never expected to beat San
    	Antonio and gave LA all they could handle for 5 games.
    
      - Biggest bust:  San Antonio.  Although it's safe to say that
    	Portland is primed and ready to take over the throne.
    
     
    						 glen j.

    
    Being a Pistons fan I was disgusted at the lack of sportmanship
    they displayed at the end of the game.  Only John Salley remained
    on the court to congratulate the Bulls players.  Chuck Daly did
    congratulate Phil Jackson and some of the players as he was leaving
    the court.  The rest of the team can take a hike.
    
    I think the Pistons were totally outplayed in this series and the
    better team won.  It was too bad that they had to resort to cheap
    shots.  I still think the Pistons can play tough defense without
    all of the extra-curricular activities.
    
    One other thought I hope tough defense doesn't go the way of allowing
    baseball pitchers to pitch inside.  I watched a baseball game
    on ESPN over the weekend the pitcher threw the ball two inches inside
    and the batter had a cow.  It didn't dawn on the player that the ball
    almost hit him because he was leaning over the plate.  The most ironic
    thing is the batter was not one of the multi-million dollar cry babies.
    
    \pjb

    re .415
    
    The Bulls best game ain't enough to deal with the Lakers. (Naturally,
    we're assuming they get by Portland) 

 Got to admit I lost alot of respect for the Pistons' yesterday. As GL stated
 the DeanHO ending wasn't called for. Rodman's shove of Pippen who totally 
 outplayed him this series goes against everything he supposed to be about 
 according to him. Even worst was Edwards grapping Jordan's ankle while 
 Michael waa driving and James was lying face first on the floor. A deliberate
 attemp at injury IMO..

 Detroit fans  "GO LA"
 
 Boston fans "BEAT LA"

 and we're suppose to be the classless ones??????

 Walt and other piston fans in here excluded because they have shown the
 class the fans at the Palace did not...

    I remember a commercial with Dr. J. from a few years back. "Suum Pipl
    caw me Doc-tah J cuz a_how I ahperate."
    
    Yup Magic needs to talk like that.

    Congrats to the Bulls.   Pippen really played a great series.  Didn't
    watch yesterday's game.  Listened to some of it - figured the PIstons
    would lose.  Bulls were better team this time around.
    
    Watched LA-Portland Game 4.  As the announcer said - Portland is
    playing 5 on 8.  They couldn't get a break.  LA was playing pretty good
    ball - Magic is simply the best.  He's really got the hook down to a
    science.  Why don't more guys learn to do a hook?  Oh yeah, I forgot -
    dunking is better.
    
    I'll be interested in seeing which team is painted as the bad guys if
    its LA-Chicago.  Which way will the calls go?  Michaels way - or Magics
    way?    I know one thing, if Will Purdue throws Magic into the post
    like he did Isiah, they'll whistle Will for a foul this time.  
    
    AC Green played a super game - the Blazers just don't have it when it
    counts.  I thought Adelman coached scared.  But he had the same
    problems Daly faced - foul trouble to the big guys early and often -
    coupled with horrendous shooting.  Gotta love Buck WIlliams work ethic
    - but he's got to score more.  
    
    
    Will the BUlls resign John Paxson (unrestricted free agent)?  I don't
    think so.  They don't need him.  Except for yesterday - he was fairly
    useless.  He's a liability defensively, and looks tentative
    offensively.   
    
    
    Detroit do some housecleaning?   Will Laimbeer retire?  Is Salley gone?
    
    Should be interesting.
    
    Chicago's first ever trip to the finals.  Will Jordan deliver?  Or will
    Magic get a ring for the other hand?  This could be the Lakers last
    hurrah (but, haven't we heard that before).
    
    
    I was fascinated by the turn against the Pistons in the media during
    this season.  I guess everyone smelt the blood and went for the kill.
    The Pistons dominated hoops for the last three years - winning two
    titles, and coming oh so close to three - (the infamous Kareem penalty
    3 seasons ago).
    
    Teams have emulated their style.  And I'll say one thing.  The man with
    the biggest heart in the NBA is Isiah Thomas.  And I'll take Joe Dumars
    and Vinnie Johnson on my team any day.   Rodman?  What can you say.  He
    let the BUlls get to him.  They messed with HIS brain, and he folded. 
    Reverse-psychology.  He did some incredibly stupid and classless things
    on the court.  But he'll be back.  What will be interesting is the long
    term effects it has with the refs.  WIll they all of a sudden blow
    everything against Dennis, negating his effectiveness?  I wouldn't be
    surprised.
    
    Will Mark Aguirre remain?  Its no secret he and Daly aren't buddies -
    but the man provides offensive spark.  
    
    Salley?   The Mychal Thompson of the East.  Great interview - funny
    guy.  Who could use him?  The Warriors could.  
    
    
    The Knicks?  Supposedly Riley wants a guarentee that  Ewing will accept
    RIley as coach (along with Riley's philosopy) orRiley stays in the
    booth.  Ewing is an enigma.  He's the franchise now - but he's not
    happy (like Sir Charles in Philly).  His contract (esp. a new one)
    could eat up half on the Knicks salary cap.
    
    What to do?  Dump Kiki.  Maybe its time for Mo Cheeks to hang em up -
    one of my all time favs - but he's lost a bit.   After that?  Oakley is
    nice to have - but is he a dinosaur in this day and age?  He reminds me
    of Michael Cage.   Mark Jackson?  Maybe under Riley he could prosper -
    but I'm not sure.   Another long season for the Knicks awaits....
    
    What of the Celtics?   Another year older in the front line.  Who's the
    heir apparent to the Chief?  Joe Kleine?  Nah.  How much longer do Bird
    and McHale stick around?   Is Shaw trade bait?  Dee Brown and Reggie
    are the future of the franchise.   But that leaves a lot of building to
    be done.
    
    The Blazers - if they go down - what happens to them?  IS the nucleus
    of Duck-Drexler-Kersey and Porter broken up?  Couldnt' Portland use a
    Vinnie Johnson?  
    
    I think Duckworth is too soft in the middle.  He disappears.  Porter is
    eratic.   They are my two choices to go - if a trade is in the works. 
    buck could move on also.  Drexler is untouchable.
    
    The Lakers?   Is this byron Scott's swan song?  And will Vlade come
    back?  How much longer does Magic play - he's still the best.  And
    whither James Worthy?   Do any of them wind up on Broadway with former
    Mentor Riley??/?
    
    
    Should be an interesting off-season.
    
    JD

    I read something in Sunday's Glob about the final four years of Ewing's
    contract kicking in automatically if he's one of the four highest-paid
    players in the NBA as of June 2.  Currently, going by the criteria used
    to determine the salary cap, Ewing is among the four highest paid
    (these salary measurements don't include Larry's $4 million dollar
    lifetime "bonus", etc.)  The Knicks say they want to re-negotiate anyway 
    so Patrick won't sulk, but it appears that he may not be eligible for 
    free agency after next year after all...
    
    glenn
    

    re .421 .422
    
    I think that Dr J is a pretty articlte person. And obviously
    intellgent. Ditto for Magic. Remember Magic's roots (Flint, MI) before
    you dump on his speech. And given the fact that both Erving and Magic
    are pretty astute and successful businessmen off the court, maybe you
    guys should practice talking like Magic ?
    
    Which would rather say :
    
    "I *is* rich", or
    
    "I *am* broke" ?
    
    "He may not articulate the language well - but it wasn't his to begin
    with ..." -Richard Pryor on Leon Spinks
    
    DrM

    Doctor J's ability with the English language shows the value of an
    education from the University of Massachusetts.  Not only that, he's a
    true Doctor.  We gave him an honorary doctorate a few years ago and he
    earned another one from Springfield College this year.
    
    Take that, North Carolina.
    
    John

    Wasn't surprised that the Bulls dominated the Pistons as handily as
    they did in the Eastern finals.  Detroit hardly blew away a worn-out
    Celtic team in the semis.
    
    Tough to gauge how Chicago will match up against LA in the finals, as
    the Bulls haven't really been tested so far in the playoffs.  I give
    the Lakers an edge initially as they've been there before.  (I don't
    think I'm premature in telling the Blazers to warm up the bus, heck the
    Warriors gave the Lakers a more competitive series than Portland has so
    far.)
    
    
    py

    
    
re .423
>      - Magic is simply the best.  He's really got the hook down to a
>    science.  Why don't more guys learn to do a hook?  Oh yeah, I forgot -
>    dunking is better.
 
    Yeah, the hook shot should be required learning, but remember the
    discussion that we had about low-post centers ? There's another reason.   
    
    
>    AC Green played a super game - the Blazers just don't have it when it
>    counts.  I thought Adelman coached scared.  But he had the same
>    problems Daly faced - foul trouble to the big guys early and often -
>    coupled with horrendous shooting.  Gotta love Buck WIlliams work ethic
>    - but he's got to score more.  
 
    To a point I agree. But Adelman could become the Jerry Glanville of the
    NBA - poor in-game coaching decisions are getting him burned. Daly
    coached rings around him last year, and now a rookie like Dunleavy is
    doing the same.

>    Will the BUlls resign John Paxson (unrestricted free agent)?  I don't
>    think so.  They don't need him.
    
    I think you're wrong on this one. He's had a great season (although he
    shouldn't have). He spots up well on the 3 pointers, and Jordan loves
    playing with the guy. And while Paxton can be exploited on D, it's
    nothing like what would happen when BJ Armstrong gets toasted.
    
    Short of a complete and absolute crash-and-burn, Paxton will be signed.
    
>    Detroit do some housecleaning?   Will Laimbeer retire?  Is Salley gone?
 
    Laimbeer will stay for another year or two. Salley may be gone, but I
    doubt it. They need him on the court AND off. Salley is a sort of
    ambassador for the Pistons, especially in the black community, where he
    is "Mr Piston" much more so than Isiah, believe it or not. I think
    losing Salley could have big reprecussions in fan support, and of
    course, team performance.
    
>    I was fascinated by the turn against the Pistons in the media during
>    this season.  I guess everyone smelt the blood and went for the kill.
 
    The media can wagon-jump with the finest of them.
       
>    Teams have emulated their style.  And I'll say one thing.  The man with
>    the biggest heart in the NBA is Isiah Thomas.  And I'll take Joe Dumars
>    and Vinnie Johnson on my team any day.   Rodman?  What can you say.  He
>    let the BUlls get to him.  They messed with HIS brain, and he folded. 
    
    Isiah is special, ditto for Dumars. I love to watch VJ, but how many
    more teams can The Microwave toast ? Was the Bulls series his last
    effective hurrah ?
        
>    Will Mark Aguirre remain?  Its no secret he and Daly aren't buddies -
>    but the man provides offensive spark.  
 
    He's tarde bait - if he hasn't scared off the rest of the NBA.
       
>    Salley?   The Mychal Thompson of the East.  Great interview - funny
>    guy.  Who could use him?  The Warriors could.  
 
    Like I said, he stays a Piston - if management is smart.
           
>    The Knicks?  Supposedly Riley wants a guarentee that  Ewing will accept
>    RIley as coach (along with Riley's philosopy) orRiley stays in the
>    What to do?  Dump Kiki.  Maybe its time for Mo Cheeks to hang em up -
>    nice to have - but is he a dinosaur in this day and age?  He reminds me
>    of Michael Cage.   Mark Jackson?  Maybe under Riley he could prosper -
 
    The Knicks have survived on 'tweeners' and 1-D players too long. How
    about a more complete shooting guard or power/small forward ?
    
>    What of the Celtics?   Another year older in the front line.  Who's the
 
    Who cares ?
    
>    of Duck-Drexler-Kersey and Porter broken up?  Couldnt' Portland use a
>    Vinnie Johnson?  
 
    Nope. Vinne is old. The Blazers need to learn how to play with what
    they have - it will be plenty good enough.
       
>    I think Duckworth is too soft in the middle.  He disappears.  Porter is
 
    What do you expect out of guy named Duckworth ?
    
>    The Lakers?   Is this byron Scott's swan song?  And will Vlade come
 >   back?  How much longer does Magic play - he's still the best.  And
 
    Maybe, yes, and 2-3 years ....
    
    Dr Three_Outta_Five-Peat

    Doc -
    
    Good points.  I still have a feeling Portland needs to do something.
    I do know they could use a better back up center.  Cliff Robinson is
    better as a power forward than center.  
    
    Didn't know about Salley's community role.  The Pistons have to do
    something in the front court.  Edwards is old, old, old.  Laimbeer is
    effective, but his game has slipped - though I do acknowledge that
    injuries hampered him.  Rodman is a luxury - but if the team is cold,
    they need offense from him.  I think Salley should go back to starting.
    In fact, if the PIstons make NO personel changes, I'd go with a
    starting lineup of Laimbeer, Aguirre and Salley up front, with Edwards
    and Rodman off the bench, with Dumars and Isiah in the backcourt, with
    VJ as the 3rd guard.   Still a nice 8 man rotation.
    
    Re Glenn and the Knicks:
    
    
    Ewing remains in his contract as long as he's one of the top 4 paid in
    the league.  The outside chance is that Jeff Malone, yep Jeff Malone,
    could possibly be offered(demand?) a huge contract - and if the Jazz
    give it to him, then Ewing falls to #5, and his contract's last 4 years
    are voided.  This is highly unlikely.  
    
    The other thing that could happen is someone goes nuts, ala Hot Rod
    last year, and gives a HUGE contract to someone....
    
    A rumoured deal at one time was Ewing to the Heat for Seikaly, Douglas
    and the Heat's #1 pick (#5 overall).   Didn't swing...
    
    JD

    Re: Dr. J
    
    The Doc is one of the most articulate and intelligent men the NBA has
    ever known.  You have to admire any man who could interpret for Moses
    Malone ;-)
    
    Mike

    re .431
    
    Funniest thing about Moses is that he might sound a little like RCASO,
    but I'll be damned if he isn't accurate with the content (Ex: fo-fo-fo,
    and proclaiming that the Sixers would never beat his Bullets team after
    his trade. And it took 2 years fo the Sixers to beat Washington too !)
    ....
    
    Doc M

    So Hawk, is Michael a better role model for the millions of kids?  I
    mean he jumped boat from UNC after 2 years.  His shoes and clothing are
    icons for gang members nation wide.  He's helped spawned the idea that
    being able to slam-a-jam is all that matters in the world.  
    
    Neither Magic or Michael are role models, an to tell the troof - I
    don't find Magic's manner of speech to be that bad.  As far as I know,
    he was very loyal to his parents, is a pretty decent community type
    guy, does charity work, etc...  He hasn't been found guilty or accussed
    of anything illegal.  
    
    But how good are sports heroes as sports models anyway - especially
    today - when kids might think all they gotsa do is slam-a-jam and they
    will be SOOPERSTARZ and make millions.
    
    I find the NBA's 'Stay in School' ad campaign to be laughable.  Perhaps
    a more accurate portrayal of why to stay in school migh help - like
    that a simply miniscule percentage of the kiddies will ever make a dime
    playing hoops (or any other sport, for that matter), and that's why
    they should stay in school.  
    
    JD

    
    re: Doc and UMass
    
    	Did Doc ever graduate from UMass?  I know he left after his second
    year and don't recall him ever returning to pick up his "real" degree.
    Those honorary things are just that, honorary...
    
    	Nevertheless, Doc is still a great guy, and a good role model.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

    Re: stay in school
    
    the one's that laugh hardest are the teens that are dealing, making
    $5,000+ per week and driving Mercedes around town.  School is the last
    thing they're thinking about.
    
    Re: Moses
    
    We have a neighbor that is a brother.  He does an awesome imitation of 
    Moses!  Makes me roll everytime he starts up ;-)
    
    Mike

>Neither Magic or Michael are role models,

Don't you think your being a little tough on these two.  In fact,
I would say that Magic and Michael are both very positive role models
for basketball superstars.  How do you rate the other bball start (Barkley,
Nique, Worthy, Bird, The princess, Malone, Ewing, etc.

Both Michael and Magic have given a lot back to the community and
not everyone can be a Kevin Johnson.




                                                        ALAN

    David Robinson is a great role model. 
    
    "Can you say contract renegotiation?"
    
    Right.
    

    re .437
    
    I dont' think many sports folks are good role models these days
    (perhaps they never were).  Both Magic and Michael seem to be nice
    enough guys, and decent humans.  Remember, I was replying to the
    Hawkster who started in on the way Magic speaks.    
    
    I mean, how many kids really give a hoot, or enver *KNOW* that Air
    Jordan does anything for charity (cept maybe the kids that see him do
    charity stuff)?  Compare it to the millions that see him jam-a-lamming,
    sticking his tongue out, etc....  Slam-a-jammin and eatin wheaties and
    wearing def sneakers isn't a role model - not in my eyes at least.  
    
    Yeah - I rather see kids emulate Air Jordan than Snoots Davis, but
    neither is a sooper role mode...
    
    JD

    First off, Congrats to the Bulls for winning the Eastern Conf. title.
    Favoritism by the refs aside, the Bulls looked too strong and the
    Pistions too battered for the Pistons to pull it out yet again.
    
    I hope Chicago wins it, (who knows, maybe it will calm things down
    for next year.)  Even though the teams dislike each other, I have no
    personal greivence gainst the Bulls. 
    
    
    RE: Magic's home town
    
    I thought Magic went to high school in the Lansing, MI area.  During
    his days at MSU they always made much todo about Magic would only play
    for the Spartans since they had always been the "home team".  Flint
    doesn't qualify since UofM and MSU are the same distance away.
    
    
    RE: Piston's personal changes
    
    I hope they give the current team 1 more year together.  This year had
    injuries abound.  Maybe next year with the pressure off the team can
    rebound. I mean, they had 50+ wins, made it to the semis.  If it
    doesn't work next year, then some people have to go.
    
    
    Commander Scott

    .437
    
    	Isiah left college early, but returned and earned his degree.
    Certainly a more positive role model than Magic and Michael(& most of
    those you mentioned).  David Robinson is another good choice.
    
    	However I don't think that athletes make good role models for
    kids.  Why?  Because they are flesh and blood human beings with flaws 
    just like everyone else.  They should be admired for their talents and 
    abilities, but certainly nothing more than that.  Basically, like actors 
    and musicians, they are entertainers.  But we don't seem to have a problem 
    in seeing the flaws of our favorite actors and musicians.  Different story 
    when it comes to athletes.
    
    						 glen j.
                                                                

    Portland wins at home... Game 6 on Thursday at 9:00 EST on NBC...
    
    REK
    
    LALA leads 3 games to 2...

A few years back, 60 Minutes did a piece on Michael Jordan.  I thought it
was a great piece.  Here's this multi-millionaire guy who does his own
laundry, sewing, cleaning.  I guess his mom taught him to be self sufficient
and he is.

I have a lot of respect for Jordan because I think he does the right thing
in a classy way.

While I don't think that children should have just ONE role model, or
that ALL their role models be athletes, I don't see where there's anything
wrong with someone looking at Jordan, Bird or Magic and admiring them
for their qualities of hard work, humility etc etc etc....

JMHO,
'Saw

    
    At halftime during game 4 of the Pistons Bulls series NBC ran an
    interview that Pat Riley did with Michael Jordan.  Pat asked him
    if he liked being a role model for kids.  MJ said that he is human
    with flaws like everyone else.  He just wished that the parents of
    these kids would be the role model in their kids life.
    
    I hope the rest of you noters don't hold the Pistons actions during
    game 4 against the rest of Detroit.  The local TV stations were
    inundated by phone calls from people irate at the lack of sportsmanship
    displayed by the Pistons.  Most of the calls came from parents who
    were upset at what their children saw on TV.
    
    \pjb

 Vegas must have put in a quick call to Jake and the boys cause at the 5+
 minute mark they started to put the squeeze on Portland (Charging on Drexler
 was a laugher) foul on Robinson, illegal defense on Portland and then timeout..
 call comes down from Vegas and not ONE but TWO Illegal defensive calls in and
 out of bounds ball call against the Lakers. I must say I was shocked! I mean
 the Lakers the team that Jesse tells me plays good old honest basketball the
 way God intended quilty of illegal defense? Can't be the Lakers don't play
 zones, I mean the Celtics of coudrs they do but not the Lakers...

 ;^)

 Between Ainge and Adelman there's enough to hate about the Blazers that the
 head of ABTL doesn't really care how this series comes out...

 

    
    Bill Laimbeer as role model, Hawk?   Granted, he may love the game, but
    your average kid isn't going to see that through all the pouting,
    flopping around, crying, general poor sportsmanship and petulant 
    behavior in the locker room.  Laimbeer might be the greatest guy in the
    world if you meet him out on the street, but that's a very remote 
    possibility, and I certainly don't want my kids emulating his on-court 
    behavior thinking that that's the way it should be in sports.
    
    I've got no problems with either Jordan or Magic.  I don't think either
    one of these guys has a speck of dirt on them, and I'm convinced that
    they are genuinely decent human beings.  So they're not Nobel Prize
    winners, and make a little money to boot.  We're talking about athletes 
    as role models whether they should be or not, right?  By definition
    they're being lauded because they're great athletes and not great
    thinkers.  If that's the problem, steer your kids away from sports 
    icons.  If it's not a problem, can you think of many better *people* 
    in the sports world to emulate than Jordan or Magic? 
    
    glenn
    

 I'd love to see my kide emulate Parish's on and off court demenor exceptin'
 of course his divorce...

Re Detriot(tm):

	Phil, I *KNOW* all youse guys out there are poor-sport-murderin'
	turds....  You can't fool me, no siree bub 8^)

re Nobel Peace Prize:

	Didja ever notice the amount of $$$ that goes along with winnin'
	that thang?

re Sports for What They Are:

	"We don't play for admiration, we don't play for victory.
	 We just play for recreation....."


'Saw

    I think KJ is a great role model for my kids, given his status as an
    athlete, person, and a Christian.  Terry Cummings, AC Green, Jack
    Sikma, Kevin McHale, Dr. J, Doc Rivers, Mark Price, John Stockton, and
    Dan Majerle are others that I can think of off the top of my head.
    
    Mike

    BTW - Last night's game was the first one I've seen in the LA-Portland
    series.  The Blazers looked like themselves and I still wonder how they
    screwed up to get down in the series.  My guess is that they've been
    playing too much 1 on 1 to lose both in LA.  When they're running and
    playing as a team, they're tough to beat.
    
    Mike

Hey!

I think the Chainsaw would be a_excellent role model for kids EVERYWHERE.

I mean, I'm a nice guy.  I make people laugh.  I get people to realize
that while life is important, it's meant to be enjoyed.

I'm a rugby player, which just goes to prove that appearances can be deceptive.

I care about other people (except for Doug Ross, REK and anyone else in here
who gets my goat 8^) 8^)) and am always doing things like opening doors
for old ladies, helping pick up stuff that people drop.

I'm curteous on the highway -- I don't cut people off, even those folks from
New Jersey, who seemingly learned to drive from reading a book about it
once, kinda, sorta....

I'm tolerant of most everyone.  Even those rollerblading yuppie JoJ kinda
people, who whine like those fake-ass people on thirty something, and who
have Golden Retrievers (as if they're the ONLY breed of dog in the world).

And finally, kid's love me.  Little baby kids ALWAYS smile when the Saw
does his funny-face.  And older kids like Hawk's think I'm thre greatest...


So, there you have it.  The Chainsaw guide to being a role model...


And remember, this is just my HUMBLE opinion 8^)

'Saw

    
    	'Saw,
    
    	Send me an 8X10 glossy and I'll put it on Clay T. Wade II's
    	(aka Mach II ;^) ) dresser so he'll know who his role model
    	is.  If he turns out to be a rugger and owns a wolf, that 
    	will be the least of my worries!
    
    	Claybone

    Hawk,
    
    Laimbeer - first off, the guy isn't marketable.  Slow, white, non
    slam-a-jammas don't fit into the NBA Fan-tastic marketing, nor into
    other marketing.  Even Larry Bird, IMO, never received the marketing
    that Jordan does, even though the prime Larry Bird, was at least as
    good as Jordan, if not better.   But larrry lacked the slammajamma
    jazz.
    
    Very few commerials by hoopsters include outside jumpers - they gotsa
    have the slammajamma.
    
    Things have changed, Hawkster, since our days and the likes of Clyde
    Frazier - endorsements and advertising weren't everywhere, and media
    wasn't everywhere.  I'd guess I see Michael Jordan at least once (in an
    ad or something) every single day of the year.  Kids probably more so!
    
    What do the kids see when they see Michael?  A guy who does his own
    sewing?  A nice, articulate guy?  Nah!  They see sneakers and jackets
    and hats and slammajams.   Great role model.
    
    And I've seen Magic being interviewed in the off season, and he's
    always struck me as being  a pretty good speaker.  Better than most.
    
    

    
    The Pillsbury dough boy is my favorite roll model.
    
    
    Dickstah
    

    Hawk,
    
    Game 1 will start whenever NBC thinks will be the bested time...
    
And don't fret the Magic thang.  He ain't gonna win no oratory contests -
    he's about 3even wif Larry...
    
    JD

Glad to see someone (.451) acknowledging the articulation AND class of
Mr. McHale...  He's consistently one of the best interviews on the air,
with a great blend of wit and wisdom, delivered in a fair approximation 
of the King's English for a change...

A good family man, too, so I'm told...

    Re: -1
    
    ...but he still looks like Herman Munster ;-)

    
    McHale's too much of an on-court whiner to be my idol.  Come to think
    of it, that may be Magic's one shortcoming, too.  Classy Dee Brown's my
    *new* idol...
    
    glenn
    

    Yet, Kevin Mchale whines and cries after every foul.  Then again,
    Magic, Larry, and Michael do a fair amount of whining.  Folks just
    notice guys like Laimbeer more.  In fack (TM) no one ever seems to
    notice that Michael does a lot of scowling and whining on the court...
    
    JD

    McHale's a Freak of Nature too, don't forget that.  And he's always
    grabbing for a towel, probably sweats too much, 'Saw, check on that
    would ya?
    
    Congrats to the Bulls fans.  They deserved it.  Interesting to see how
    many Celts fans jumped on the Celtic bandwagon when they got
    eliminated, talking about how a 3-peat was imminent, and how game 1
    was a fluke.  Wrong guys, the better team won, fair and square. 
    That's been pretty clear most of the year.  Of course, it's easier for
    guys who haven't been in here all year to show up and bury them now
    because their team has a chance for the finals. (Not Air_brooks or
    Jesse or Dan or Mr MTHOOD::....)
    
    re JD on VJ off the bench:  Isn't that what Ainge and Davis were
    supposed to do?
    
    As I said earlier, I didn't see any of Game 4.  From what it sounds
    like, the Pistons were a bunch of jerks.  Can't really justify that.
    I think they're real competitive and hate to lose, which is good, but
    that sounds like it was going too far.   Fans sound like jerks too.
    
    SI had an article about what Salley does in the community last year.
    Pretty good.  I hope he's back.  Laimbeer should be traded, but he'll
    retire if they do, so he'll be back.  Not sure what they can get for
    VJ or Edwards.  I hope they can drop VJ and pick up Jeff Malone.  Then
    maybe trade Aguirre for a big man or if Malone isn't an option,
    something like Schrempf and Fleming or Buck Johnson and Sleepy.
    
    What's the Pistons' record on NBC now?  Can't be great....
    
    -Walt

    FWIW - Dennis Rodman sent a personal apology to Scottie Pippen today -
    it was pretty nicely worded.  He apologized for pushing Scottie - said
    it was an act of frustration - said he's ready to pay any fine or face
    any suspension.  Said he apologizes to the rest of the Bulls, and hopes
    it doesn't cause problems in the future.
    
    And FWIW - there wasn't much difference between Rodman pushing Pippen
    into the fans than there was Purdue Throwing Isiah into the stanchon -
    but I guess folks only want to find fault with Detriot (tm).  Both
    incidences deserved T's and possible ejections.  
    
    JD

JD,

    I'm curious, what do you really think of Jordan and the Bulls?


    Sounds like a nice (wise) gesture on Rodman's part.  I always liked
it when players apologized (or slapped five) after committing a hard 
foul.  I've never been a big "In your FACE" fan.  

    Did the Pistons really show that bad sportmanship.  All they really did
was leave the game early and not congratulate the BULLS.  It was weak
but I didn't think it was that bad.  




                                                        Alan

    .444
    
    	If it was any other team than Chicago, maybe the reaction of 
    the attending fans and the Pistons would have been much different.
    Such has become the nature of their rivalry(intense and genuine dislike
    for one another).         
    
    .465
    
    	Walt, please go to note 82 and see how BS your claim about '
    guys who haven't been here all year' is.  Thank you.
    
    .466 JD
    
    	I see your point on the physical play of the Bulls against 
    Detriot(tm).  IMO, it's more a case of the Pissed-ons(tm) reaping 
    what they've sown rather than folks 'only wanting to find fault with 
    them' specifically.  There was a time when they reveled in their 'Bad Boy' 
    image.  Mahorn may be gone and despite claims stating that the image 
    is more a memory than reality, that's what lots of people will remember 
    and associate with them.  Similiar to how some people still think 
    of Showtime when you mention the Lakers.
    
    
    						 glen j.

    
    RE:  Rodman's apology to Pippen.  Pippen did not accept the letter
    that Rodman sent him.  He said that he doubted that Rodman even
    wrote the letter.  The flagrant push cost Pippen six stitches under
    the chin.  Pippen said that he will never forget the incident and
    he has a scar as a constant reminder.
    
    Scott Hastings blasted his teammates in the paper yesterday.  To
    paraphrase what he said.  We sat on the bench and cheered the
    team on for 82 regular season games and 15 playoff games and for them
    to leave before the game was over showed little class.
    
    \pjb

    re .-2   I didn't mean you either... Didn't have time to put together
    a list of who's been in and who hasn't.  I can think of a couple
    though.
    
    re Rodman:  He's generally always gone and tried to shake people's
    hands after questionable call.  Question is does the other person
    want anything to do with him.  Jordan and Perdue come to mind as people
    who walked away or gave more lip after it...
    
    -Walt

    Walt, you are full of it today! Rodman cheap shots then tries to shake
    the person's hand????? AND its ok then???  I think not....
    
    REK

    
    Really Walt, your sounding more and more like a Celts fan!
    No excuse for poor sportsmanship, no matter who, what or
    where.
    
    
    
    Steve

 anybody want to pay me to say bad things about the Lakers today? Usually
 insures a victory Jess....

 ;^)

    re: .465
    
    >> As I said earlier, I didn't see any of Game 4.
    
    Walt, how come you never watch Pistons whenever they do stupid things ?
    Sounds like Pistons do dumb things when "Eyes Of Walt Ashe Is Not Upon
    Pistons" :-).
    
    -- Ram Nori

    .475 Gee, maybe this is what I was referring to...
    It's called having a life.  It's Memorial Day weekend, I can either
    spend the day outside with a date at a couple of bbq's with friends,
    or I can spend the time watching tv with my date like I did Saturday
    on a nice day.  I chose to go out and enjoy the weather... I tried to
    tape the game with my brother's new VCR and taped it at the wrong
    speed.  I got up to the last 4 minutes of the 2nd quarter.  So unless
    you have a tape of the game for me, I guess I'm SOL, huh?  Funny, I
    missed the last 8 minutes of Game 5 of the Celtic playoff game and you
    weren't asking me about that one.... Get a clue...
    
    Let me try again.  Rodman took a cheap shot.  Ok it was uncalled for.
    He at least tried to apologize.  Now it's not Rodman's problem if
    Pippen refuses to accept it.  He'll pay the fine, he can't take it
    back now.  What's the problem?  Was a cheap shot?  Yeah.  Should he
    have done it?  No.  Did he get fined? Yeah.  Was he sorry?  Yeah.
    Now what?  I say, the incident's over, concentrate on the game tonight.
    What's the problem with that?  Was it great to have them yell "Go LA!"
    Not at the time.  Who knows, maybe they grew up with Magic, I don't
    know... but it wasn't the classiest thing to do, no.  What's the big
    deal in here?  Why does that mean Piston fans in hear deserve that kind
    of crap?
    
    I don't make "All Celtic fans suck" statements (unless provoked)... 
    or ask if Larry's sorry about the flagrant foul cheap shot he took...  
    There's more to life than that crap. I'll take a couple of guys on the 
    team who are intense and want to win.   
    
    -Walt

    Re:  Cave
    
    What do I think of the Bulls and Jordan.  
    
    I think Michael Jordan is one of the best to ever play roundball.  He's
    generally, from what I've heard, a good guy off the court.  Like all
    superstars, I feel he's protected too much by the league and the refs. 
    I think he gets away with a lot of fouls and benefits of the call.  I
    think he's worshipped too much - but that is not his fault.  I think
    the best thing he's done lately is to not compete i the slam dunk
    contest - it was getting stale.  I think his high-flying act detracts
    from the rest of his game.   But I'd take him on my team any day.  My
    biggest fault with folks is that I don't put him on a pedastal - but I
    don't put athletes on pedastals.  As Mr. Jordan said last night on ESPN
    - basketball is a business to him.  
    
    The Bulls - a decent club.  I don't root for them (nor, should I add,
    do I root for the Pistons).  I think they were better than Detroit -
    and would have won the series no matter what.  Just as I've blasted the
    officiating all year, I blasted it in this series.   The officials let
    Chicago do whatever they wanted.   I think Will Purdue got in as many
    so called 'cheap' shots as Laimbeer or Rodman did - but folks think its
    okay for Will to throw Isiah into the stanchon - and the fact that Will
    is a seven footer and Isiah 6'1" at best makes it even worse.  FOlks
    killed Ralph Sampson for going after Jerry Schiting, but not a peep
    about Will.   And the same folks who find no fault in Kevin McHale
    taking Kurt Rambis' head off, or Robert parrish sucker-punching
    Laimbeer - get on Rodman's case.  I think Pippen's awakening has been
    the biggest help of all to the Bulls.  
    
    I'm interested in the finals.  La-Chicago, as I stated earlier, will be
    interesting - especially in seeing how the refs decide the series
    should be played.  If the Blazers come back, the Bulls will beat them
    easily - because I predict that the Blazers will be in foul trouble the
    whole series.  Cliff Robinson will get whistled for a foul every time
    he touches a Bull.  That's my call if Portland takes it in the west.
    
    If the Bulls win, Michael will get his ring.  Everyone will be happy.
    If the Lakers win, it will solidify Magic's ranking as possibly the
    best ever.  If the Blazers win, David Stern and NBC will have heart
    attacks....
    
    JD

    Fellows, if Rodman does nothing, you all will p*ss on him. He tries to
    apologize like a man, and you STILL are whining.
    
    What do you want him to do ?
    
    Doc

    Hawk --
    
    Actually, I always praised Larry Bird for his skills.  As a hoop fan, I
    loved to watch Larry's game.  I rarely treat sports figures as
    demi-gods - and I had fun with the Jihad and Larry is God(TM) stuff in
    here.  Same with Jordan now (or Magic).  But Larry in is prime was a
    sheer joy to watch.  There was a time when I knew that Larry would hit
    the big shot - it was automatic.  I always loved Bird's competitor
    instinct - one thing about Larry - he never loafed.   My favorite
    Celtic however, has been Robert Parrish - with Cedric Cornbread Maxwell
    my next favorite.  Paul Silas was my favorite Celtic of all time.  
    Followed closely by the Chief, Cornbread and Jo Jo White.  
    
    I'll agree with Doc - if Rodman does nothing, he is railed on - he does
    something, he's railed on.  IMO, Scottie Pippen is the one showing no
    class now.  But I've never been impressed with Scottie's 'class'.  
    
    FWIW, the sharks keep circling the Pistons, Vescey did a nice hatchet
    job today in USA Today.  
    
    JD

    With Worthy questionable for tonight's game, I guess we'll have the
    answer to the question of which is worse, an ankle injury or a
    hamstring pull.

                                               
    I don't recognize apologizing via a word-processed letter, faxed in 
    triplicate to the league office and ESPN, as being necessarily
    sincere.  Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, but the thing had Detroit
    Pistons Public Relations Department, Damage Control Division written 
    all over it.  Apparently Pippen felt the same. 
    
    Pick up a phone or write a personal letter and leave the rest of us out
    of it if you really want to make your peace, Dennis...
    
    glenn
    

    re .482
    
    Worthy is questionable ?
    
    How long will it be before we hear from Doug Ross ? :-)
    
    re .481
    
    Hawk, we're all having woodies listening to your gruding praise of
    Magic. I still think that Magic was at least the equal, and tehn some
    of Bird, but to hear you even say what you said about Magic gives me
    hope for the JIhad. 
    
    Congrats ! :-)
    
    re JD, I agree with your note.  Jordan may finish as the best ever, but
    I don't put him (or any athlete) on a pedestal in general. But our
    society is so screwed up that we ask our entertainers to be role models
    for the youth. 
    
    Which is really funny, because a few generations ago, professional
    athletes were looked down upon, women who acted were always viewed with
    some misgivings etc ....
    
    My how times change.
    
    And the Piston bashing is no suprise, I get the impression that some of
    these jokers have waited fro at least 3 years to unload, and they
    aren't going to pass it up.
    
    re.483
    
    Is that so Glenn ? Maybe it was typed so that Pippen could read it ?
    
    And why is the public apology so gauche now ?
    
    It sure as hell wasn't when Bird and Rodman was on everyone's lips ...
    
    Which reminds me, somebody ought to kick Bob Costas in his sawed-off
    butt. He really stooped to cheapshotting last Sunday ...
    
    doc

         
    > And why is the public apology so gauche now ?
    
    Not gauche, but perhaps insincere.  The point is that I really don't
    care if Rodman apologizes or not, so when ESPN produced a fax of the
    letter for public consumption I wasn't impressed.  The feud is 
    between Rodman and Pippen, and apparently Pippen ain't buying Rodman's
    response to it...
    
    > It sure as hell wasn't when Bird and Rodman was on everyone's lips ...
    
    Again, I didn't care if Rodman and Isiah apologized publicly to Bird 
    or not.  I didn't hear Bird demanding it, and I believe that all the
    parties communicated privately and straightened things out.  Since
    Rodman and Isiah made their statements *publicly*, the rest was pure
    damage control for their own public images, not to make things right
    with Larry Bird, who by all accounts never thought much of the issue
    to start with.
    
    > Which reminds me, somebody ought to kick Bob Costas in his sawed-off
    > butt. He really stooped to cheapshotting last Sunday ...
    
    I missed this.  What happened?
    
    glenn
     

     IMO the real issue about the Pissons hasn't been touched in 
     here, but was nicely covered by Riley during halftime. He said 
     something like: "I don't understand why the refs won't let the 
     Bulls play their game. You can't see this on TV, but every time 
     the Bulls touch the ball 5 Detroit players foul. They work on 
     the assumption that the refs won't know which one to call and 
     might not call any - at most they'll call one."
     
     The cheap shots and poor sportmanship were ugly, but the 5-man 
     foul is something they have been doing for years and getting 
     away with - along with after-the-whistle hits. That is why 
     opposing players hate them. I hope that will change.
     
     The other interesting point was Wes Unseld's statement that the 
     no-fighting rule was bad for basketball, as it took away a 
     player's right to defend himself. Were it not for the 
     no-fighting rule, IMO, Rodman would have no teeth by now and 
     might be a little wiser. And Lamebrain, wow, who knows what 
     would've happened, but I bet you would need a flashlight to find 
     that mask ;-)
     
     josh
     

    Doc, I thought you called yourself a Laker fan.  How can you not know
    the status of one James Worthy?  Even I who have not watched any
    basketball since the Celts were eliminated know that Worthy had to come
    out of Game 5 against Portland and is listed as questionable for
    tonight's game.

    Not sure why you call the game one way all season and then expect to
    call it differently in playoffs.  Then again, there were a couple of
    3-second calls...

 yeah Walt 3 seconds amazing...

 anyways as usual despite Teddy Green's pissin and moan the West again proves
 weak as the Lakers mysteriously and magically survive and now move on to the
 finals. 

 interesting finals especially the matchups. With Worthy hurting AC is going
 to have to play alot of good hard defense on Pippen. I've been real impressed
 with Divac's play lately. If he could just put on 20 pounds of muscle he 
 could dominate from the post. He's certainly understands the game beter than
 alot of slamm a jamma college post players. I think he'll give Carthwright
 fits. Perkins/Grant, Magic/Michael Byron/John are pretty much washes as
 each has strengths the other doesn't and vice versa. So I guess it comes
 down to the bench. Bulls' bench playing better lately but Lakers bench has
 the experience....

 so it'll probably be the Bulls in 4.......

 mike

    re   <<< Note 6.477 by RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JO "Live the Mr. T Experience!" >>>
    
    
    >>or Robert parrish sucker-punching Laimbeer - get on Rodman's case.
    
    Damnit, John, that was NOT a sucker punch. If you still have the tape,
    look at it again. Laimbeer saw it coming - at the very least he should
    have expected it after the number of times he kicked or stepped on
    Robert's ankle. He cowered like a baby. Took a dive ala Bill Barber of
    the Flyers. 
    
    A sucker punch is very clearly illustrated in the movie "Slap Shot".
    When the Hanson brothers square off at the face off circle and then
    sucker the opposing players, THAT is a sucker punch.
    
    It's getting a little old with you continuing to accuse Parish of
    sucker punching Laimbeer. McHale, agreed. What he did was more flagrant
    than what Rodman did. No excuse for clothelining. A hard fould yes, a
    potentially maiming foul, no. If you continue to believe that Parish
    delivered a sucker punch, you have either forgotten the details of the
    incident or are so blinded with bias that you believe any act by a
    Celtic player is deplorable.
    
    Rich
    

    Congratulations to The University of North Carolina (and Dean, of
    course) for place FOUR (4), count 'em, ... F - O - U - R !!!!!
    players into the NBA Finals.  Well done, men. 
    
    Can anyone think of any other time that one school was represented
    so fashionably?  I can't.  
    
    YEE HAA!!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    The Blazers sure gave a good effort down the stretch, but they just
    missed too many free throws.  That fumbled pass by Robinson on that
    3-on-1 which would've put Portland up by 1 killed them.  Magic was
    fouled (actually, mugged) when he grabbed that rebound on Portland's
    last shot and threw the ball the length of the court.  I hope Jordan
    gets a ring, but I also wouldn't mind seeing the Lakers win it just to
    piss off the Notre Dame Celtic(tm) fans.
    
    Joe 

Nobody here's mentioned the INTELLIGENCE displayed by the Magic-Man in
that court-length flip of the rebound...  Smart thinking, since had he
simply tried to capture the ball, either (a) Vlade might have committed
a loose-ball foul, (b) Drexler might have gotten to it, and drained a 
jumper, (c) a Blazer might have tied him up for a jump-ball, or (d) any
combination of the above... might have happened.  With 4 seconds (approx.)
on the clock, anything was possible.  Magic made it all academic...

All in all, a very exciting finish...

- Steve, a-lifelong-appreciator-of-quality-play

    re: .490
    
    Laimbeer may have kicked and stepped on Parish but that was no reason
    for Parish to punch Laimbeer from behind when Laimbeer was not looking
    at him. Parish should have punched Laimbeer when Laimbeer was facing
    him. It was definitely a sucker punch, whether you like it or not.
    
    -- Ram Nori

    re: .491
    
    >> Someone buy AC Green a Greyhound bus pass!  4 steps on that 3 point
    >> buzzer-beater at the end of the 1st, then a couple minutes later, on a
    >> fast break, 5 steps on the lay-up that he missed but got hacked on and
    >> made both free throws.  10 point swing right there!
    
    Say what ? Give me a break. Give a better execuse for Portland's lose.
    
    -- Ram Nori

    Lakers over Bulls in 6!
    

    Portland is going through the stage that Detroit went through 4 years
    ago, where one team has the talent to be a champ, but the mental
    toughness isn't quite there .... Robinson's botching of a *4-on-1*
    break was a killer for sure.
    
    But Portland will be a fixture in the conference finals (at least) for
    the next 4-5 years. Almost every team goes through this phase. In some
    wahys they reminded me of the '85 Lakers, who should have swept the
    Celtics, but gave away Games 2 and 4 ... but after that, their killer
    instinct became near-automatic.
    
    Portland, IMO, will grow from this too.
    
    But let's give both teams credit - Clyde Drexler - who can argue that
    he's one of the 5-6 best in the league ? He was immense down the
    stretch for the Blazers. 
    
    Duckworth ... what a quiche-eater... funny how people rag on Ralph
    Sampson (to name one example), but he was a beanpole, and he was much
    more productive than Duck. Granted, Kersey and Williams will take their
    share of the boards from him, but to be that massive and get 6-8 boards
    a game ? Puh-lease !
    
    I can't beleive that both teams were such stiffs at the foul line ...
    
    I can see Divac springboarding from this playoffs next year, first a
    great series against Akeem and the Rockets, now a solid one against the
    Blazers ... and let's not forget the job that Sam Perkins did. Makes
    you wonder, is it the Lakers and Magic that got the most out of him -
    or was Dallas gulity of typecasting him, and putting a lid on his
    talents ?
    
    Re ACC Chris,
    
    So there are 4 UNC grads in the Finals - why the hell didn't they win
    more NCAA titles ?
    
    (PLEASE ANSWER THIS IN THE ACC NOTE !)
    
    Doc

    Oh yeah, I think the Lakers will take Chicago in 6. IMO, the Bulls are
    good, but not nearly as good as people think - it looked to me liek the
    East was pretty battered, with Philly, Detroit, and Boston all having
    been hard-hit by injuries, which the Bulls, to their credit, took full
    advantage of.
    
    Even with Worthy's injury, I like the matchups. Will Divac and
    Cartwright play each other to a standstill ? AC Green/Perkins vs Grant?
    Paxton vs Scott ? Pippen and Worthy ? How about the benches ? And of
    course, Magic vs Air ....
    
    I think it will come down to the supporting player(s) with the hot
    hand, and the Laker's half-court game. Unlike the Pistons, who often
    rely on the outside shot, and 2nd chances, the Lakers have multiple
    low-post options. Let's see how Cartwright and Grant stand up to it.
    My bet is that they can't.
    
    DrM

    Rich Brake -
    
    Okay, I'll never do the Parrish thing again.  Besides I like Robert,
    and can't wait til he gets inducted into Springfield.
    
    Hawk - I also don't care who wins the thing.  The only interest is to
    see which fans would whine longest and hardest over a loss.  In fact, I
    didn't care who won any of the semis.  All I like is 5 on 5 hoops - not
    8 on 5 hoops as is too often the case.  
    
    Plus, I'm looking forward to this series - after all, there will be
    personal fouls called!  Neither team ever fouls!!!!  No one touches the
    other guy when playing defense!  No one touches the other guy while
    rebounding - and god forbid - no one ever touches the shooter!!!  This
    will be great!  The refs can leave their whistles at home!  There will
    be no jawing!  Just a nice love-fest of hoops.  And patty and bob and
    the rest get to stumble over themselves in their praise for Magic and
    Michael.
    
    Re Chris Knorr:  Basically, who cares - but what about UCLA?  I know LA
    had Kareem and Jamall Wilkes on the team at one time.  The Celtics had
    KC Jones and Bill Russell who both were at San Francisco together.  
    Notre Dame has 2 players that I know of - Paxson and Laimbeer.
    
    My wife thinks its funny, and so do I, when they announce guys and
    their colleges before pro sporting events.  As she puts it - heck, when
    you give a presentation or something to a customer, they don't say"
    
    "And now presenting, from Northeastern University, in his 10th year,
    John Devlin....."
    
    I kind of agree - I mean Magic left early, but he's in his 12th year
    out of Michigan State....simply introduce the guy..
    
    JD

    Doc -
    
    I don't know about Portland being a fixture.  They need to make a big
    move.  Other teams are improving - and their window of opportunity may
    be closing.
    
    The Bulls are favored, BTW, to win it all.  USA Today has them in 6.
    
    I was thinking last night about the Knicks and Ewing - as a Knick fan,
    I don't think the Knicks will go anywhere with Patrick.  Not because of
    Patrick's talents - but because I have doubts about supporting cast.
    
    Two things come to mind - Riley the whiner takes over as coach, and
    makes some deals (AC Green is an unrestricted free agent after this
    season - I could see Pat trying to get him...)
    
    Or, the Knicks trade Ewing.  Looking at Portland, I thought...hmm -
    Ewing to Portland for Duckworth and Porter, perhaps.  Gives the Blazers
    a dominating front court, but leaves a hole at the point guard - but I
    think they could fill that up.
    
    Never happen, but it was a thought.   I doubt they'd deal him withing
    the Eastern Conference, though I'd love to see him on Philly with Sir
    Charles or on Detriot (tm) with Isiah or Dumars.  But neither team
    could come up with enough in a trade.
    
    Re Doc again
    
    On the finals - big thing will be how they let the boys play inside. 
    The more physical they let them play, the better it is for Chicago.  If
    they whistle it tight, it could negate Grant and Purdue.
    
    JD

    Well a great effort by the TrailBlazers that was lost for many reasons
    FREE THROWS...YOU CANT MISS DOWN THE STRETCH end of story, the Missed
    oportunity on the 3(4) on 1 that went out of bounds...Bad Calls, there
    was a travel on Drexler that was totaly bogus, important swing becuase
    portland was on a roll and that call took the momentum away, but to be
    fair on one of clydes GLYDES to the Hope I rewatched in slo Mo and
    counted 3 definate steps and a possible 4rth as the ball was released
    2pts !!! Great play by magic at the end but the ball hit out of bounds
    with 1.? seconds left, give credit to the time keeper for not giving
    portland another chance...Also magic was fouled on that last rebound
    at least once, refs let it go...Well Chicago gets home Court...Boy Ive
    alwasy hated the 2-3-2 in the playoffs but even more now that my team
    is the home court winner and play 3 our of the 1st 5 on the road..Boy
    do you have 2 win the 1st 2 at home or what...Sunday 3:00pm cant wait
    
    							M_Air_Brooks

    Hey Air, do you ever slo-mo any of Michaels 'glides' to the hoops??
    
    Just wondering if Michael ever travels...
    
    Ta-ta
    
    Jd

    
>    As I thought of who this particular Donk fan may have been referring to
>    with the above, I had a feeling that he probably may have been thinking
>    of me when writing such a cheapshot insult.  
    
    Actually Hawk, I wasn't directing that toward you or anyone in
    particular for that matter.  I'm not backing out of anything, just
    telling you the truth.  As a matter of fact, I didn't even know you
    were a Celtic fan, and haven't had any conflicts with you in the past, 
    although I do recall you commenting briefly on my serious hatred
    for Notre Dame.  
    
    Anyway, I'm not a die-hard Laker fan, but I pull for them just because
    they signify anti-Celtic.  Much in the same sense that I root for the
    Hurricanes.
    
    HTH  :^)
    
    Joe

    Joe, anyone who hates ND and roots for the 'Canes is okay in my book.
    
    Mark.

 I hear you, Hawk.   You guys all know that I live and die for the
 Philly teams, including the Sixers, but I made the conscious decision
 to become a Charlotte Hornets fan when I moved down here.
 
 I don't regret it for a moment.  It is a tremendous amount of fun to
 root for a brand new team struggling to make it.   It's like starting
 all over.   So, each morning during the NBA season, I scan the sports
 page nostalgiacally looking for the Sixers' box score and I say a
 quick silent "Yeah!" or "Boo!" depending on their outcome but I spend
 the rest of the time soaking in all the Hornets stuff I can find.
 
 And I *loved* it when the Hornets beat the Sixers this year.  Great
 fun.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  I do admit, though, that it will be *MUCH* tougher to give up
 the Eagles should Charlotte be awarded a new NFL franchise.

    Yes I have occasional notice Michael JOrdan getting in that extra step
    before he actualy releases the ball...Never a 4 stepper though.  These
    are very close as well and cant imaging them calling it on the close
    ones, yes if its blantly obvious he should be called, but the refs do
    not have instant replay (yet) and they do not always have the angle's
    that we get to view...And believe it or not they actually try to watch
    the other players off the ball and the player wrapping there arms
    around michael neck and dont always get to watch his feet :-) besides
    with hi hang time he doesnt need to travel :-)
    
    You want to clean up this special treatment...Pay the refs on there 
    work..If they make 2 many boo boos dont pay them for that game..If
    it means less money in there pocket they may start calling the stars
    for fouls they deserve.  A team like the BUlls would benefit from this
    more then most.  
    							M_Air_B

    re: .501 (JD)
    
    Give up college names during NBA introductions?!  BLASPHEMY, JD!  It's
    the part of the Finals I'm looking forward to the most.  Three (3)
    starters with degrees from the same institution.  I say this is
    unprecedented in NBA history.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

 I'm already sick and tire of the Michael deserves a ring shit already...I
 mean really like Michael's ever ever going to lack for anything in his life.
 The only gift I wish for Michael is the one he'll never have anyways and
 that's privacy....

 Now as for the series it just to dam perfect tv drama for me Magic handing
 the mantle over to Michael. What a script call hollywood there must be a 
 movie in here somewhere...Bulls in 4 get it over with quick! 

 Oh yeah the ABTL club is open for business again big time don't expect
 another nice word about the Lakers out of me until Bulls plant em'...

 hell JD actually accused me of having class today something has to be done
 to stop that kind of stuff from happen' again....

I see the CBS camera crew trained the NBC crew well. Let's see, Jack sit's
over here, and this is where Dyan sit's and Arsenio will be there and remeber
no one want's to see that little kid holding up the "I heart Magic" sign.
Sickening.



Steve

    Face the facks Hawk. You sold out the Knicks to join the Jihad !
    
    I'm hurt ....

    re  <<< Note 6.495 by PMVAX::NORI >>>

    >>re: .490
    
    >>Laimbeer may have kicked and stepped on Parish but that was no reason
    >>for Parish to punch Laimbeer from behind when Laimbeer was not looking
    >>at him. Parish should have punched Laimbeer when Laimbeer was facing
    >>him. It was definitely a sucker punch, whether you like it or not.
    
    >>-- Ram Nori
    
    What planet were YOU on during that game? Or during that series. It was
    a well publicized Fack(tm) that Parish's ankle and knee had him in
    great pain. Ray Melchiore must've spent 16 hour days keeping Parish and
    McHale bandaged up enough to get on the floor. Bill Walton suited up
    but his foot was too far gone. That left two near cripples.
    
    And Laimbeer, to his credit, read the paper. Read the scouting report.
    Knew that Parish was an important part of any chance the Celtics to
    beat Detroit. With no Parish, the Celtics were doomed. 
    
    So Bill Laimbeer proceeded to kick, hack, knee fall on or otherwise
    create a living hell for Parish's ankle and knee. Many times, Parish
    would get leveled by a Laimbeer shot, mumble to himself and almost
    crawl over to the bench. 
    
    DON'T YOU REMEMBER THAT RAM NORI?????
    
    Not ONCE did Parish whine to the refs. NOT ONCE! When parish finally
    realized the refs either couldn't see the actionsd of Laimbeer or
    simply would not call them, he gave him a chop ON TOP OF THE HEAD! Not
    a sucker punch to the chin or nose....TO THE TOP OF THE HEAD. Laimbeer
    turned around - not with his fists up but cowering like a baby.
    Parish's next swipe mostly caught Laimbeer's pleading arms.
    
    If that's a SUCKER PUNCH where you come from, pal, it musty be a pretty
    wimpy place.
    
    Rich
    

    Rich,
    
    Don't even bother trying to reason with Ram or "Babbling" Brooks.
    They both have a severely distorted sense of reality.  When "Babbling"
    stated that Drexler didn't travel, I'm not sure he wasn't watching
    a different game.  Drexler travelled.  He even knew it.
    
    And, "Babbling", try using the period key.  It might make some of 
    your rambling replies almost have some semblance of coherency.  Almost.
    
    Pete  

    Hey guys I need some helping finding a reply.  I know it must be in
    here somewhere.  I don't know how I overlooked it.  Anyway, the one I'm
    looking for is JD's note on how badly the Trailblazers choked.

    Thanks for the support, Pete and Hawk. I haven't had the chance to be
    as active as I once was in here due to DECwork(tm) so many of the new
    noters are foreign to me. I miss the days of Crunch and Mr Boston when
    people with bad opinions didn't take themselves seriously.
    
    Rich
    

>    Congratulations to The University of North Carolina (and Dean, of
>    course) for place FOUR (4), count 'em, ... F - O - U - R !!!!!
>    players into the NBA Finals.  Well done, men. 
    
    Yeah but they had to leave UNC to do it ;-)

    re: .517
    
    Go back and watch the tape again. The play on which Parish sucker
    punched Laimbeer, Laimbeer didn't do anything to provok Parish.
    Infact the refs didn't even call on foul on that play. Now matter 
    where you come from it's a sucker puch pal.
    
    -- Ram Nori

Ram, get real.


Laimbeer didn't necessarily have to do anything ON THAT PLAY.  

Ask any rugby, hockey, or football player and they'll tell you that
a lot of time you don't have the opportunity to retaliate right away, but
you wait, you watch, you bide your time.

My bet is that Laimbeer and Parish were going at it all game, until the
cameras finally caught it...

'Saw

    Mac -
    
    The Blazers choked big time - but it wasn't totally unexpected, as
    least to me.  Game 1 vs. the Lakers - when they blew the big lead at
    home, set the tone - just like in last year's finals vs. the Pistons -
    when they had the Pistons beat in Game 1, then let that mass-murdering,
    cheap-shotting, traveling Isiah lead the Pistons comeback - which led
    to the Blazers being swept.
    
    The Blazers have no heart.  They have great individuals - but they
    aren't a team.  ONe the the 'stars' has to go.  And they need a
    physical presence in the middle - Duckworth plays softer than Spud
    Webb.
    
    JD

    According to Parish, Bill kept kicking him in his swollen ankle. 

    re: Parish
    
    We are not discussing whether Parish was justified in doing what ever he
    did to Laimbeer. The point here is if it was a sucker punch, I think it
    is, why didn't Parish hit Laimbeer like a man when he was face to face
    with Laimbeer, like what Charles did to Laimbeer. When you sneak from 
    behind and whack somebody that is a sucker puch. 
    
    -- Ram Nori

	RE:       -< Pistons: Guilty until proven innocent? >-

	Seems to me that, year after year, the Pistons have gone out    
	and proven themselves guilty.

    
    Ramdiculous(tm)
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    re :. 532
    
    Why ? because I said Parish sucker punched Laimbeer. There are some
    morbid Celtic fans who think Celtics can do no wrong and can't seem
    to stand the truth. If Parish didn't sucker punch, Why the F*** was
    he suspended for a game ? Steve take a hike.
    
    -- Ram Nori  

Ha ha ha ha !!!! Ramdiculous(tm) strikes again! Ram take a HUGE pill
dude, you need it! 



Steve

    OK, Ram, let's take this down to YOUR level so even YOU can appreciate
    what was happening. Heck, even 'Saw caught on and we all know there is
    no TYV yet in Connecticut....
    
    You are on the blue team and I am on the red team. OK, Got that?
    Through no fault of your own you twisted your ankle a week ago and it
    is swollen and hurts like heck. But, Ram, you have a heart as big as
    Montana and your blue teammates are depending on you. They need you,
    Ram. So you suck it up for the big series with MY team, the red team.
    
    Following so far?
    
    Well, it's my job toy guard you, Ram and I know about that pesky ankle
    of yours. So, using my wiley talents, I give it a kick everytime I can.
    I make sure the refs are watching for someone to breath on my team's
    superstar so they won't see my antics. Quietly you warn me and once you
    even threatened to cold-cock me but I skittered away down court
    laughing at the pain you were enduring.
    
    How's the ankle feeling, Ram? Well, I've been taunting you and kicking
    you for a couple of games now. I watched you pull yourself up off the
    floor writing in agony. I've made it a point to snicker when you look
    up from the floor at me in pain an anger. I strut around you in
    defiance. Stoicly, you stagger back to your bench. I see you sucking
    wind and grimacing in pain. I can't wait for you to come back on the
    floor so I can continue kicking that ankle, leaning on you and making
    you VERY uncomfortable.
    
    I think I may have pushed you to far though, Ram. We both go up for a
    rebound and I manage to get an elbow in your face. You finally loose it
    and clock me ON TOP of the head. Hitting ME? Little ole me??? I cower
    like a dog to protect myself from your next swing and then remember to
    fall down and act hurt figuring the refs will give you YOURS!!!
    
    Now, Ram, did you cold cock me? Did you sucker punch me? Or did I prime
    the pump to the point where retaliation was inevitable?
    
    And listen, don't give me that CEltic fan crapola. I'll be the first to
    tell you that McHale deserved a suspension for what he did and that
    Larry is treated like an icon by the media and the refs. Parish has
    hands of stone whenever he puts the ball on the floor. I am a fan of
    the team, yes, but I also appreciate good basketball. Laimbeer was
    playing hardnosed basketball and heas a pro, expected the show to fall
    sooner or later. 
    
    Sucker punch? I guess your dictionary and mine are completely
    different.
    
    Rich
    

I've watched the Celtics most of that season and certainly all the playoffs
against the Pistons.  However, this is the first I've heard of Laimbeer
kicking and stepping on Parish's bad ankle.  Where did all this kicking
and stomping come from?  Laimbeer is a jerk and I remember elbows, hard
takedowns but never kicking and stomping.  Was this common knowledge?  I
don't remember that in the papers either.

In Ram's defense I define a sucker punch as "A punch when the enemy isn't
looking" and thats what Parish did.  Was Parish justified - Probaby,
was it a sucker punch - I would say so.


                                                            Alan


Now you guys can rag on me too but thats OK because thats what I saw
and remember.

    May 1986, Alan. Got the year? Now, go check the replays again.
    
    Rich
    

    re: .535
    
    Do you refuse to undertsand or are you really a dud ?  For the last
    time I am not discussing whether Parish was justified in hitting
    Laimbeer. BTW Parish just didn't come down on Laimbeer's head with his 
    elbow. Parish standing behind Laimbeer gave him good left and right hooks.
    Go back and watch the replay again.
     
    BTW if you have COME UP TO MY LEVEL. 
    
    re: .536
    
    Get a life.
    
    -- Ram Nori

You can't pull one incident out of context and use it like a sword to prove
your point.

If you're debating the issue of what a sucker punch is, then yes, a sucker
punch is a punch thrown when someone isn't looking.  If that was all you
intended then the last kazillion replies debating that were simply a
SPORTSnote's masturbatory exercise in oration.


But, I'll put forth this, because of the tone of condemnation of that punch.
In what sports aside from boxing and hockey, are most of the punches thrown
straight on, and not "catch as catch can".

None.

Even in rugby, unless you're in the rare instance where you and somebody
just come to it, face to face, most of the stuff happens after the fact.
I step on someone's fingers (either deliberately or by accident).  He
wangs me in the back.  Later in the game he's in a ruck and I'm giving
him the boot, raking him with my cleats.  Then later he gets me in a
maul, he's on the side away from the ref, and he's punching the crap outta
my ribs....

All are sucker punches.  But you can't take them out of context and make
any sense out of them, other than the (weak) fact that they are thrown
when someone isn't looking.   

Oh, and by the way, he and I might not have been looking, but we sure knew
something was coming.......


'Saw

    'Saw, you hit the nail on the haid. What Ram is insinuating and what JD
    brought up a while back is that Parish cheap shotted Laimbeer. JD was
    willing to discuss the preliminary aspects of the altercation and grant
    Parish his due. 
    
    But our other Purple & Gold brother enjoys  flinging the sucker-punch
    label out and leave it. As if Parish is the cheapest of the cheap
    players of our time. 
    
    Ram, perhaps you did not intend for it to come out that way but that is
    the way many have interpreted it based on the replies we've seen. Heck,
    you brought me out of hibernation (^.
    
    In all honesty, Robert Parish is a VERY poor boxer. If you feel that
    his two flailing arms constitute "good" punches then I've got some
    nuclear waste for your back yard that will make great fill.
    
    Technically, you "may" be right and that is really stretching things.
    If that soothes you and makes you feel warm and fuzzy, so be it.
    However, in the harsh reality of everyday life and sports, Parish's
    action can be viewed quite differently.
    
    Rich
    

    How 'bout dem Sox?!
    
    Mark.

    re: .542
    
    No where did I brand Parish as a cheap shot artist, or a labeled him
    as a  sucker_puncher(??). What all I said was on that particular
    incident he sucker punched Laimbeer. If you read between lines and 
    draw your own conclusion then that's your problem.
    
    'Saw you can't compare rugby and basketball. Rugby is a contact sport
    and probably expect to get punched few times, where as basketball is
    "supposed" to be a non-contact sport and if you throw a punch you get
    throw out, as a result nobody expects punches to be thrown. May be if
    Laimbeer was facing Parish, he probably would have read Parish's facial
    expressions and would have expected few punches.
    
    -- Ram Nori

    Ram, you never once alluded to Parish's ailing ankle, the high level of
    respect he has throughout the league, his level of service to the local
    community, the fact that he never whines and complains to an official,
    etc.
    
    You lump him in with Wil Perdue, Dennis Rodman and Kevin McHale as a
    sucker punch/cheap shot artist. Off the cuff. The guy's a Celtic, he
    got tossed from a game, must be a scum, case closed. What do you know
    about Robert Parish, the man? 
    
    Sort of reminds me about what happened to Kermit Washington. That guy
    had a bum rap because he perceived, rightly so, that Rudy T was gonna
    sucker punch HIM. But after the dust settled, poor Rudy... oh, poor
    Rudy. And damned that Washington fella. 
    
    Same thing here. Poor. poor Laimbeer. That big bad Parish guy from that
    lilly livered Celtic team suckered poor poor Bill. Give me a break!
    
    As far as I'm concerned, it is YOU who has the off color glasses and
    YOU who sees what conveniently fits YOUR point of view.
    
    Rich
    

Hey Rich, your catching on!

BTW, the Laker;s played a hell of a game 1. I think they took
Chicago by suprise a bit. Worthy had a game as did Magic and
also Perkins. The Bulls need to get Paxon and Hodges into the 
game as to spread out the Lakers swarming defense. I thought 
that the Bulls went to Pippen and Jordan way too much, after all
it's not very hard for 5 guys to guard 2 guys. If the Bulls can 
win Wednesday, they still have a shot, but if they lose they are 
toast. I can't see them winning 2 in L.A.


Steve

    I will concede that Parish took a cheap shot at Bill Laimbeer if you,
    Ram, will concede that Parish is by no means a cheap shot artist, that
    the cheap shot was an aberration in an otherwise clean career (unlike
    Laimbeer, who has shown a consistent pattern of being involved in such
    incidents (and I didn't pick this up from listening to Johnny Most,
    either)) and that the cheap shot was completely and 100% justified.  In
    other words, Laimbeer got just what he deserved.
    
    I will even concede that Kevin McHale cheapshotted Kurt Rambis in the
    1984 playoffs and deserved to be suspended for it (though I'll never
    complain about the results) and that ML Carr was a consistent cheap
    shot artist.
    
    Are you happy now?
    
    John

Why bother? He still wouldn't get it even if Lamebeer(tm) told it to
his face!



Steve

    Like it or not, Ram, basketball is a contact sport.  As for rugby, if
    you're seen by the ref throwing a punch, you're tossed.  No questions
    asked.  No preferential treatment for stars.

    re: .547 & .549
    
    Where the hell did I say Parish was a cheap shot artist ? I didn't even
    say he took a cheap shot, what all I said was that, on that one
    particular incident he sucker punched Laimbeer.
    
    Rich, I have no doubt that of all the things you are missing, you are
    missing your mind the most.  Show me one note in here where I branded
    Parish as a cheap-shot artist or put him in the same class as  some 
    unknown centers in NBA.
                                 
    -- Ram Nori

If you BOZOS are going to waste space in this Note, just to continue 
rehashing something that happened (if at all?) over FIVE YEARS AGO, 
when there is a FANtastic playoff final in progress almost as we speak --

I guess I'll have to go somewhere else to discuss the NBA...

Seriously -- Ram, et al, can you move this discussion somewhere else?

Just askin'   ;^}

- Steve, who_likes_the_heat_but_would_prefer_a_bit_more_light

I've set up a special conference for RAM to wax poetic on basketball and for
others to comment.  Press KP7 or SELECT to add it.

j.

Well, let's go back to those notes, Ram. 

================================================================================
Note 6.495          The National Basketball Association (NBA)         495 of 553
PMVAX::NORI                                           8 lines  31-MAY-1991 10:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    re: .490
    re: .517

    >Go back and watch the tape again. The play on which Parish sucker
    >punched Laimbeer, Laimbeer didn't do anything to provok Parish.
    >Infact the refs didn't even call on foul on that play. Now matter
    >where you come from it's a sucker puch pal.

    >-- Ram Nori

    Didn't DO anything? Oh come on now, my friend. The simple fact that
    YOU state Laimbeer didn't DO anything clearly illustrates your bias
    entering this argument. And, I suppose the ref not calling a foul on
    the play makes it OK. As if the refs NEVER miss a call. 

================================================================================
Note 6.528          The National Basketball Association (NBA)         528 of 553
DDIF::NORI                                            9 lines   3-JUN-1991 13:24
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    re: Parish
    
    >We are not discussing whether Parish was justified in doing what ever he
    >did to Laimbeer. The point here is if it was a sucker punch, I think it
    >is, why didn't Parish hit Laimbeer like a man when he was face to face
    >with Laimbeer, like what Charles did to Laimbeer. When you sneak from 
    >behind and whack somebody that is a sucker puch. 
    
    >-- Ram Nori
    
    Uh, excuse me, Bill? Hi, I'm the 7 foot guy whose ankle you've been
    kicking. I'm am going to punch you in the nose in about 6.4 seconds. On
    Guarde! Hell, Thomas Hearns didn't expect Marvin Hagler's fist when it
    hit. Was that a sucker punch?
    
================================================================================
Note 6.539          The National Basketball Association (NBA)         539 of 553
DDIF::NORI                                           15 lines   4-JUN-1991 13:34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    re: .535

   >Do you refuse to undertsand or are you really a dud ?  For the last
   >time I am not discussing whether Parish was justified in hitting
   >Laimbeer. BTW Parish just didn't come down on Laimbeer's head with his
   >elbow. Parish standing behind Laimbeer gave him good left and right hooks.
   >Go back and watch the replay again.
    
    Am I a dud? What is that? I have two children. Perhaps you are calling
    me a dude? Is that it? 
    
    Now you bring up the point of whether on not Parish was justified. In
    6.495 you said Laimbeer didn't do anything. Which way is it? Good right
    hooks? Are you sure YOU saw the same game? Those "punches" were more
    like flailing arms.
    *************************************************************************
    re  <<< Note 6.553 by DDIF::NORI >>>
    
    
    >Where the hell did I say Parish was a cheap shot artist ? I didn't even
    >say he took a cheap shot, what all I said was that, on that one
    >particular incident he sucker punched Laimbeer.
    
    Ram, you don't HAVE to say "Robert Parish is a cheap shot artist". The
    content of your notes was one way. You refused to even consider the
    ramifications of his act. Re-read your notes. You clearly start off by
    saying Laimbeer did nothing to provoke Parish. You then get into the
    semantics of a sucker punch. You go as far as to insinuate that
    basketball is not "supposed" to be a contact sport.
    
    A person who never saw that game and had no allegience to any team
    listening to YOUR version would walk away thinking Bill Laimbeer is
    Mother Theresa's love child and that Robert Parish is the Green River
    killer.
    
    >Rich, I have no doubt that of all the things you are missing, you are
    >missing your mind the most.  Show me one note in here where I branded
    >Parish as a cheap-shot artist or put him in the same class as  some 
    >unknown centers in NBA.
                                 
    >-- Ram Nori
    
    I am missing things? Hold on, I'll be right back..........Just got back
    from the doctors and he says I have a mind. Sorry to disappoint you. 
    
    Bias does strange things to a dialog, Ram. Lester Maddox never came out
    and called a black person a nigger in public. But he was a rascist pure
    and simple. Your clear bias against anything or anybody associated with
    the Boston Celtics slants your view to the point of diminishing
    anything you have to contribute.
    
    Have a Nice Day,
    
    Rich
    

Ah, that's bettah...

Looking forward to tonite -- if Bullsies come out as a 5-man team, and
use Michael as a set-up man, they could run the Lakes right off the court!
Younger, stronger in some ways, and with a little inside-work to Grant
(and some work for Perdue, perhaps?) the Chi-boys could even this sucker!

However, if that fails, they may have to rely on Jordan's creativity to
excess once again, and THAT spells 'close, but no cigar...'

Either way, we'll know by tomorrow whether this goes 4 or 7...

- Steve, happy_to_be_back_in_the_game

    Jeff, I had already entered .556 before you set up your new conference.
    I have added to mu directory and look forward to being enlightened by
    such a masterful, knowledgable person.
    
    BTW - The title of this note is the NBA. It does not say Bulls or
    Lakers or Celtics or Jordon or Magic. Traditionally, topics with titles
    like this are very broad and cover a wide range of subjects within the
    context of the title. So, if the person who called me a BOZO would care
    to retract his attack, I'd be happy to accept the apology.
    
    Rich
    

    
    
re .549

>    I will even concede that Kevin McHale cheapshotted Kurt Rambis in the
>    1984 playoffs and deserved to be suspended for it (though I'll never
>    complain about the results) and that ML Carr was a consistent cheap
>    shot artist.
 
    You aren't concceding anything John - you're just acknowledging the
    obvious.
    
    Of course if you'll never complain about the results of an unethical
    and illegal action, because the ends justify the means, then you lose
    whatever leverage you had hope to gain against Ram.
    
    Doc

    OK, Ram
    
    If I change my line that reads something like "I will concede that
    Robert Parish cheapshotted Bill Laimbeer" to "I will concede that
    Robert Parish suckerpunched Bill Laimbeer" (which I also acknowledge,
    by the way) will that satisfy you?  If not, what will?
    
    Also, a suckerpunch is, by definition, a cheap shot, where a cheap shot
    is not necessarily a suckerpunch.  If you want to debate semantics, I'm
    ready.
    
    Deen to wonk,
    
    John
    
    PS - Doc, not only do I concede that Kevin McHale cheapshotted Rambis
    but I acknowledge it, too.

Doc, don't look now, but your woodie is showing 8^)

    re .563
    
    You're jealous Hawk .... which is understandable  ...
    
    
    Not just anyone could adjust the Hubble Telescope - from Earth ...
    
    :-)
    
    Doc

    chicago by double figures tonight...
    

I was just going to saw Hawk, if it was that slob Tank on 'BCN, you could
just about right it off as trash.

Did anyone else catch that clip from game one of A.C. Green calling for time
after the Jordan miss in the final seconds. The Lakers had no time outs left!
Good thing the refs are blinded by Chicago eh!! 8^)))



Steve

>Did anyone else catch that clip from game one of A.C. Green calling for time
>after the Jordan miss in the final seconds. The Lakers had no time outs left!
>Good thing the refs are blinded by Chicago eh!! 8^)))

 Why yes I did. Like Dan said sunday "lakers' fan never blame the refs"...
 they can't lord knows the stripers are doing their goddan LA bestest...

 ;^)

    Hawk,
    
    What's amazing is - in the years that teh Pistons beat the Bulls, the
    Lakers, and even the Blazers, the losers werent' exactly class folks
    themselves.  The Bulls, for 3 years, whined and cried about the way the
    Pistons beat them silly.  The Bulls, and their fans, NEVER went out of
    the way to congradulate teh Pistons, nor did the other teams.  In fact,
    the only team that did was really the Celtics.  ANd, the Pistons
    generally hung with themselves - in victory and defeat.  Its amazing
    how short sighted and narrow folks can be.  All the negative press has
    actually got me to start liking the Pistons more.  I rooted against
    them the last 3 years' in the finals.  But now I respect them.
    
    Why?  Cuz its obvious that any praise given to them by the league, the
    commisioner, most opposing coaches and players, and by the media was
    simply lip service, shallow, insincere, and of the sour-grape variety.
    The way they all gleefully jumped at the chance to bury them is
    testament to that.  
    
    It's almost like the media said "Hey, no more Saddam Hussein to kick
    around, lets get Rodman and Laimbeer..."
    
    Besides, if the Pistons had shook the Bulls hands, would it have been
    sincere?  No way.  So why do it?  So it looks nice?  It would be done
    to appease the media - the very same media poised, axe-sharpened, to
    hack them to death.  I applaud them for standing on a principal.
    
    And those that wanted to, like Salley, did congradulate the BUlls.  The
    same John Salley the Bulls whined and complained about.
    
    I've seen nothing gracious at all in this Bulls team.  From the whining
    of Phil Jackson to the taunting of Michael Jordan to the thuggery of
    Will Perdue and Cliff Levingston.   The Bulls are closer to the
    Pistons, style wise, then they know or think.  Of course, the NBA
    couldn't and won't come down hard with any negativism agaisnt the Bulls
    - because Jordan is money in the bank for the league.  The league can
    afford to hang Isiah and Dumars and Salley and the rest out to dry - as
    long as they get Michael his ring, more exposure, and positive, gushing
    publicity...
    
    JD

    Hawk,
    
    I've never had to congradualte anyone and worry about what some media
    jerk will thnk of it.   And, to tell ya the troof, I've refused the
    hand of a couple of competitors in my life.  I knew he wasn't being
    sincere, in fack, it was more of a 'in-your-face' congrats, and he knew
    it too.  No hand shake, no real hard feelings.  More respect than
    anything.
    
    So, even if they had shook hands, what would kids have learned?  That
    the team that cries and whines and stamps their feet the most gets the
    benefits of the doubt?   That its okay to backstab, as the media and
    announcers did?  that it is okay to taunt - as long as your are a
    superstar???
    
    Its like the "Go LA" chant.  I thought it was fine.  The Pistons *hate*
    the Bulls, and vice-versa.  It makes sense for the fans to root against
    the Bulls - its natural, and expected.  ANything else would be a cop
    out.  Same for the Celts fans "Beat LA" chant.  Made sense.  They
    *hate* the Lakers.  They couldnt start a "Go LA" chant.  Would seem
    unnatural - just as if the Pistons fans chanted "Go Bulls".
    
    Sportsmanship, like everything else in life, has to have a sense of
    sincerity behind it to mean anything.  
    
    As I'm sure others have had, I've had a couple of 'heated' rivalries
    that  were long-lasting - and for the most part, those folks turned
    into pretty good friends.  Sportsmanship is mutual respect.  Shaking
    hands for the sake of it, with no meaning behind it, is analagous to a
    politician promising not to raise taxes, or a politico kissing a baby,
    or saying they hear the voice of the people...
    
    JD

    
    Let's all remember this lesson the next time the Miami Hurricanes
    decide they don't like someone and decide they don't want to be
    insincere about it...
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn,
    
    I see no correlation between Mimai and Detroit. None at all.  The
    'Canes run up scores, taunt from the opening kickoff, celebrate every
    play, disco dance every tackle or play, and show no class for the
    entire game.
    
    They rub the opponents nose in it when they win.  THe Pistons did not
    do that.  
    
    The Canes instigate everything.  The Pistons reacted to the Bulls.
    
    Rodman pushing Pippen was classless and cheap. But so was Purdue
    chucking Isiah into the stanchon.  
    
    So, everyone would have been happy if the Pistons gave insincere hand
    pumps to the Bulls.  I say Bullsh*t - you all still would have found
    something to rail on them for.
    
    And as I said, the Bulls were never gracious in defeat when the Pistons
    were kicking their butts.  
    
    JD

    Au contraire, JD.  It's a very accurate analogy.  
    
    Rodman treats every hoop like it's a buzzer beating winning shot.  How
    many times can you recall him running down the court whipping the crowd
    into a frenzy, high-fiving every player, coach, cheerleader and
    concession vendor he can find.  Sheet, he'd just made the ass-end of a
    pair of free throws.
    
    Mark.

    Okay Mark - you have ONE guy.  And I've never condoned Rodman's actions
    either.  I don't like it, and wish he'd stop. It detracts from his game
    - and IMO, that the real unsportsmanlike stuff going on.  The Canes are
    a team of ROdmans, if you will.  
    
    SO it isn't a good analogy.  What the Pistons have one guy doing, and
    have done once (the walking off the court) the Canes have done every
    game.  Didn't they show a lot of class after this years bowl game?
    
    JD

    	JD, riddle me this.  How could the Celtic fans *hate* the Lakers
    in 1982 when the last time they played them in a playoff series
    was 1969?  If it had happened in the late 80's your statement would
    have some validity, but not in 1982.
    
    				/Don

    >How could the Celtic fans *hate* the Lakers
    >in 1982 when the last time they played them in a playoff series
    >was 1969? 
    
    They were jealous that Magic was better than Larry.
    
    Dan

    Don, 
    
    Simple - Celts fans still clung to Russel and Wilt, to the baloons in
    the forum, etc...
    
    THe hate was there.  It was a rivalry - maybe dormant, but a rivalry.
    
    Why too much was made of that chant, anyway.  Self-patronizing by Celts
    fans....
    
    You going to tell me that guys like you and Childs etc., actually
    'liked' the Lakers until they met the Celts again in the finals???
    
    JD

    The only things I've ever disliked about the Lakers are:
    
    1.  Wilt Chamberlain
    
    2.  The entire "Hollywood" thing that's built up around the team.  Once
    I learned to ignore that and appreciate the Lakers basketball, then I
    stopped disliking them.  I do admit I've only been able to do that in
    the last couple of years.
    
    John

    Rumour Mill:
    
    From USA Today:
    
    The Clippers and Jazz are talking about exchanging Kenny Norman for
    Thurl Bailey.  IF true, Jazz get the better of it, IMO.   Jazz reserve
    power forward Mike Brown is a_unrestricted free agent, and has a big
    deal from Il Messaggero - the Warriors are interested in him.   Good
    pickup for the Warriors, if it goes down.
    
    The Warriors supposedly are not interested in free agents Moses Malone
    or Bill Cartwright.  The Sixers and Rockets may go for Malone...
    
    The Celts are shopping Brian Shaw - and not cheaply - Joe Kleine is
    also on the block.
    
    The Hawks have offered Kevin Wilis and Doc Rivers to Dallas for Rolando
    Blackman.  The Nets, Clippers and Kings have made inquiries abour Derek
    Harper.
    
    The Mavs are marketing Herb Williams....
    
    The Pacers are prepared to trade the #13 pick to Denver for Michael
    'Frenetic Energy" Adams....
    
    At the predraft camp in Chicago, the following players have impressed:
    Rutger's Keith Hughes, Oregon's Terrell Brandon, N.C. State's Chris
    Corchioni, New Mexico State's Randy Brown, and Nebraska's Tony Farmer.
    
    Rumour is that the Hornets-Nuggets proposed swap of draft picks won't
    happen.  Hornets likely to draft Larry Johnson.  Supposedly, Shinn
    likes UNLV, adn would love to get Augmon too, and get this, replace
    Littles with Jerry Tarkanian...
    
    Hope this didn't bore poor ol' Nazz.
    
    JD

Bet your butt I hated the Lakers in 82. I've hated them and Philly since
the dawn of sports in my life. Why? Simple...See Johnny Most for details...

;^)

even still though in the early eighties the chief rival for the C's was
Philly. Whoever survived the East was always favored in the Finals. The
Lakers only won those two early titles because they faced Philly who's
history is filled with such blazed of glory turned to ashes that it make
the Lakers record in the Finals look decent.

mike

>SASE::SZABO                                          24 lines   6-JUN-1991 14:04
>    30s, yeah, they'll probably regard it all with much more complexity
>    such as you (JD) and pick out all the insincerities, etc.  I'm not
>    saying what you're saying is wrong, [JD,] the way you see it, but I don't
>    think you're seeing it through the eyes of a 10-12 year old.  
    
    Oh, I don't know, Hawk, from his notes I would think he probably 
    is...    :-)
    
    
    Charlie

    With the Sox and Celtic fans being in low profile lately, JD needed
    another windmill to tilt at.

    Thanks for bein' concerned JD.  I appreciate it.  ;-)
    
    NAZZ

    In 1982 I think the average Celtic fan had a lot more dislike for a few
    guys named Bobby Jones, Andrew Toney and, perhaps Mo Cheeks than any
    player on the Lakers. And, JD, I'm sure you were in Boston then. Then
    I'm sure you recall the absolute seething rivalry that existed with the
    Sixers. Before that it was with the Bullets and before that it was with
    the Knicks.
    
    You see, it's like baseball or hockey or football. Perhaps the Giants
    have rivalry with the Niners. Yet, nothing compares to what they have
    with ther Eagles or 'Skins. But, I could very well see 'Skins or Eagles
    fans chanting "Beat SF" in the closing minutes of a losing playoff game
    to the Giants. 
    
    Rich
    

    Rich -
    
    No f***ing way will Eagles fans, or Redskins fan EVER chant anything
    favorable to the Giants.  Don't believe me, ask Bob Hunt.  Bad analogy
    Rick.  
    
    To put this another way.  Both the Sixers and Lakers were rivals of the
    Celtics.  yeah, I know all about the Sixer-Celts rivalry in the early
    80's - but as Don said the Sixers had respect - they had J, and Mo
    Cheeks and Bobby Jones - all classy guys.  La was still the 'Fakers' -
    the enemy.  Every Celtic fan I knew then - and going to Northeastern
    most of the folks I knew were Celts fans - everyone of them wanted the
    Sixers to beat LA.  My best friends in College were all from Mass and
    all Celts fans - and the all absolutely loathed the Lakers.  They hated
    the Lakers as much as they hated the Yankees.  'Nuff said.  Perhaps you
    and Don are more worldly then the rest.  But that's what I base it on.
    
    And Detroit and LA have basically NO history of a rivalry - they met
    Twice in the finals and that's it.  The Bulls and Pistons, however,
    have a long storied, not friendly rivalry.  That's why the chant didn't
    phase me.  Who really cares, anyway?
    
    Larry bird was released from the hospital.  I hope his back is good
    enough that he can play Bird-like - or I hope Larry hangs them up and
    doesn't become a Willie Mays flailing away....
    
    JD

    JD, are you implying that Philly fans have no class?
    
    Rich
    

    Rich,
    
    Huh???
    
    Not implying that at all...
    
    Confused,
    
    
    JD

    Forgot the smiley face, JD. I guess I was off base on my analagy. I
    could never see the fans in Yankee Stadium cheering on the Red Sox to
    beat the NL in the World Series. Ditto the fans in Fenway Park.
    
    Actually, I guess I am a guilty party to this. The only time I root
    against the AL team in the WS is when the Yankees are there.
    
    As Gilda said, "Never Mind".
    
    Rich
    

    No problem Rich -  Growin up, the Knicks rivals were the Celts, the
    Bullets, and the Lakers.  And to tell the truth, I considered the
    Lakers and Bullets to be the rivals.  I played endless hoops games with
    my friends - one team was the Knicks, the other the Lakers or Bullets - 
    Happy Hariston, Gail Goodrich, West, McMillan and Wilt vs. Dave
    DeBusshere, Bill Bradley, Willis, Clyde and Dick Barnett.  Or the
    bullets with the wonderous Pearl and Wes Unsold.  
    
    I could never root for either of those teams, or the Celtics in the
    finals.  When the Celts and Lakers met in the 80's, I sided with the
    Lakers only because I was living in Boston, and couldnt' stand the
    chest puffing by the fans I was surrounded by.  If I was in NY, who
    knows, maybe Ida rooted fer the Celts....
    
    As A Giants fans, I rooted for the Raiders to whip the Eagles in the
    Super Bowl, and to do it to the Skins.  I rooted for Miami vs. the
    Skins.   I rooted for any team every playing Dallas.  I became a Dodger
    fan everytime they went against the Yankees in the late 70's and 80's
    in the Series - and rooted for the ROyals to beat tehm before then.
    I revel in the memory of attending the 2 games in Yankee Stadium during
    the Reds 76 Series Sweep.  I became a Big Red Machine fan - and loved
    it.  
    
    Some teams are rivals, but I still can root for - the Sixers were
    rivals that turned into a team I rooted for - and still do.  Ditto for
    the Raiders, and the Canadiens.  HEck, I'm a Canadiens fan ONLY because
    the Habs beat the Bruins so many times (after the Broons broke my heart
    whipping my Rangers....)
    
    I can't see the Madison Square Garden crowd cheering for the Bruins, or
    the Bruins fans in the Garden rooting for the Rangers....
    
    
    No problem, and it makes no difference, the Bulls will win their first
    champeenship, and the question of repeat will be axed 1 minute after
    they get the trophy...
    
    JD

    Well I just finished reading 70notes or so in the NBA entry alone,
    most of which were garbage about, cheapshots, poorsportsmanship and
    rivalries.  What is a cheap shot, maybe I grew up in a different world
    then some folks, but where I grew up if you pissed someone off and were
    one stupid enough to not relize it and 2 turned your back to them and
    they hit you....Thats not a cheap shot by them thats stupitidy on you,
    weather on a basketball court or in an ally.  I didnt see the play
    between parish and Lambier so I have to go on what was siad in these
    notes, but if Lambier was kicking ans stepping on parrish I cant say
    that I wouldnt have did the same thing, so I cant put down parrish for
    actions were if I was put in the same situation I may have reacted the
    same way ! Theres this thing called adrenilan (SP) that can sometimes
    make you reacted before thinking.  I guess you people have never done
    anything in you life out of anger ??? Not saying hitting someone Im
    just saying have you ever reacted in a way under anger that you would 
    not have reacted under normal circumstances.
    
    Unsportsmanship...Maybe I missed it but which game in the last 3 years
    were the bulls lost to detroit did they walk off the court without
    congratulating(sp) the pistons ?????????? I must have missed it.  The
    bulls complain less then the Pistons, cheapshot less then the pistons
    but people are comparing there play to the pistons.  How does whining
    to the refs and playing dirty get you 62%shooting ???  BULLS all the
    way...was there ever any doubt
    							M_Air_Brooks

    Babbling,
    
    That's rich, you putting a (SP) behind just two of your dozens of
    misspelled words.  You have two errors in the title alone.
    
    I'll volunteer to take up a collection to send you back to wherever
    you were for a week, or else for those much-needed English As A
    Second Language lessons.
    
    Pete

>> congratulating(sp) the pistons ?????????? I must have missed it.  The
   
Well, you got that one RIGHT, Mr. B. -- which is more than I can say
for a LOT of people in this note, who wouldn't get the joke if
someone offered them "con-GRAD-uations!" on their commencement from
college...!   (;^})

Seriously, if we're gonna quibble about misspellings in this Note, we'll
have to rename it (or cross-post it in "JOYOFLEX"??)

- Steve, who's_just_happy_to_see_Mr._Brooks_back_in_the_game

>    That's rich, you putting a (SP) behind just two of your dozens of
                              ^^^^^^
    
    I think, by the Digital Style Guide, that should be "an (SP)" there. 
    Now calm down and let's get back to more important discussion, please.
    
    I saw a list last week of all the underclassmen that have come out
    early in the past 10 years.  Among them was listed Vlade Divac.  Why is
    he considered an underclassman?
    
    	--dan'l
    

    Digital Didnt Hire me for my spelling (Thank God)...English (grammer
    and spelling) have always been my weaknesses but I can admit it.  I
    also talk with a slur in case your intrested...Are you one of those
    people that use to pick on the handycap children back in grade school
    I thought I recognized you name....
    						M_Air_Brooks
    
    Babbling, thats a good one, but I dont need to babble now
    the bulls are doing my babbling for me

    Actually, JD gets credit for the "Babbling" nickname.  

    Air, to tell the troof, the two other people in this conf. with whom
    I speak have both mentioned your writing style.  One can't stand to
    read your notes, so it's not just me.  But, rather than me being a 
    prick about it, here's a suggestion.  Break your notes into paragraphs 
    so they're not just one huge run-on sentence.  They'd be much more 
    readable.

    And, yes, my happiest memory of childhood was when I mimicked the kid
    with the hare lip and kept asking the mentally retarded kid to explain
    calculus to me.  How didja know?
    
    Pete 

Personally, I enjoyed kicking the crutch from under the one-legged kid,
and then ragging on his sister who had St Vidas dance....

Seriously, though, I think the spelling/grammar is important if folks are
getting turned off by, or can't understand the nature of your note.

I don't think anyone was meaning to cast aspersions, or to degrade in any
way.

Whoever mentioned the paragraphs had the right idea.  Just break up
your note into logical thoughts, group them into paragraphs, and we'll
pick out any misspellings as we go along, and translate them.


And hey, at least no one has said they need a decoder ring to decipher
your notes....


All right gentleman and ladies, back to noting.....


'Saw

    Just so I don't get crucified again  - the Babbling is not an original
    -
    
    First Berman used it in:  Hubie "babbling" Brooks.
    
    Then a few of us have used it with the Good Doctor Midnight.
    
    Brooks is an easy name to add Babbling too - especially after a long,
    one paragraph reply.
    
    JD hoping to avoid another attack of the Killer Noters ;-0

One last suggestion for everybody....

Notes is a medium that requires reading. If you don't present your notes in a
fashion that can be read easily people aren't going to read your notes and your
opinions are going to be wasted.

If you bother to take the time to enter your opinion or facts on an issue take 
the extra time to make it legible. This way your opinions get the attention they
deserve and I don't get a headache trying to read stream of consciousness 
notes :-)


And I've got a pounding one right now......


Metz

Re. a few back:

I believe Vlade Divac might have been listed as a player who went
hardship because he entered the draft before he finished college.
Of course, in his case, he entered the draft before he even started
college, so I don't know how much hardship means.  

Same deal with Shawn Kemp, who entered the draft without having
ever played a minute of college ball.

Laker_Ken

    "Hardship" as is currently applied to (and as was originally applied
    to) basketball players declaring early for the NBA Draft is really a
    misnomer.  Like the NFL, the NBA would never draft anyone who still had
    college eligibility left.  The ABA undermined this, drafting Spencer
    Haywood in one of its early years.  In order to be able draft players
    before their eligibility had expired (and appease college coaches who
    wouldn't want the NBA poaching on their territory and to prevent a
    legal challenge they surely would have lost), the NBA said a player who
    wanted to come out had to prove economic hardship if he was to stay in
    school.  Later, it became a situation similar to that which the NFL now
    has - you can declare yourself eligible for the draft anytime but if
    you declare, you can't go back.  In other words, a declaration of
    eligibility for the draft constitutes forfeiting the remainder of one's
    college eligibility (which I don't think is fair to those who either go
    undrafted, or who get drafted really low).
      
    The NFL instituted this for a similar reason to the NBA - to prevent a
    court challenge that surely would have been lost.
    
    A hockey player is eligible to be drafted at anytime without forfeiting
    his college eligibility, and if he is drafted and doesn't sign, his
    rights belong to the team that drafted him.
    
    A baseball player is eligible to be drafted out of high school.  If he
    doesn't sign, he's still eligible.  If he goes to a Junior College then
    the team retains his rights for 1 year and he's eligible to be drafted
    again after that one year (case in point - Frankie Rodriguez, Red Sox
    top pick in 1990, didn't sign, went to a JC and was signed by the Red
    Sox on the day before the draft).  If a player goes to a 4-year school
    he's not eligible to be drafted again until after his junior year or
    until he's 20 years old, whichever comes first.  So, if a guy gets
    drafted out of high school and doesn't sign, the team that drafted him
    loses his rights.  If a player is drafted after his junior year and
    doesn't sign, then I believe he must play during his senior year but
    then he's taking a gamble - not only of not being drafted again but
    also of not getting as good an offer as he would have after his junior
    year since he no longer has the leverage of going back to school.
    
    John

    Nuggets traded M. Adams to Bullets for the Bullets first round pick (#8
    overall).  Nuggets now have #4 and #8 - I smell a possible pick
    package.
    
    JD

    THe NBA did away with the term "Hardship" a few years back.  
    They now call it "early entry" or something like that.
    
    HTH
    
    NAZZ

    RE Nuggets-Bullets trade
    
    Nuggets also gave up the 19th pick for Adams.
    

RE: .609

>>  THe NBA did away with the term "Hardship" a few years back.  
>>  They now call it "early entry" or something like that.
		      ^^^^^^^^^^^   
Nazz -

	Sounds like pederasty...   ;^}

- Steve

    Is the depth of the NBA draft so shallow that it would warrant Denver
    trading #4 and #8 for #1 pick in this draft?  I don't follow the NBA
    like I do the NFL, so this is a serious question.  It just seems
    amazing to me that the #1 pick is great and all that can be said for
    the #4 pick is "solid".  Please explain....
    
    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn

 Glenn,
 
 No, I don't think the NBA draft is ever really shallow.    It's just that
 there are so few roster slots available on the NBA teams.
 
 The NBA used to have a draft that went, I dunno, 10 or 12 rounds.   But it
 was a waste since the teams almost never kept any of their late picks. 
 They just drafted those kids to take up practice floor space in training
 camp.
 
 Well, the teams all realized that they could just sign those kinds of
 players up without drafting them so they cut the draft down to just 2
 rounds.   Even now, very few 2nd rounders stick.   This past season was
 the very first time that the Hornets, an expansion team, kept their 2nd
 rounder on the squad.   Steve Scheffler rode pine all year long but was
 cut a few weeks ago.
 
 They'll probably cut it down to just 1 round some year soon.   I guess you
 can conclude that the talent level is dropping but it's more a case of the
 NBA's talent demands are zeroing in on only the truly spectacular ones.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Thanks Bob.
    
    Glenn

The other thing about Denver's move is that they may be wanting to a
trade involving, say, the #1 pick and player(s). One possible, that I've
heard is the #4 and #8 for Charlotte's #1 and Dell Curry and either
another player or possibly Charlotte's 2nd round pick, the 30th overall.

I really don't see it as simple 2 picks for 1.

As far as 2nd round picks go, Charlotte has a perfect record, now that it
has discharged Scheffler: no 2nd round pick is currently with the team.

TTom

    Brooksie,
    
    You are not to BLAM!.  I happen to enjoy your "style", it reminds me of
    RCASO, except for your use of lower case.
    
    Whenever I read one of your replies, I get a great mental picture of an
    old friend of mine who used to spend some time at the local bar.  He
    used to get really worked up over a sports topic.  His arms would flail
    about, he'd be on his feet and moving around, his eyes would get a
    little glazed over, words would just absolutely stream out of his
    mouth.  And the rest of us would just sit and stare at him until he
    either took a long breath, or was finally finished with his antics.
    
    Then, we'd cream him!  Even if we agreed with the gist of what he said,
    we'd just lay into him until he either started all over, or just began
    laughing until he almost cried.  We'd all be laughing.  It was a great
    time.  He was a great guy.
    
    Hang in there.
    
    Lee

    Congrats to the Bulls ... first title ever !