Conference 7.286::sports_91

 Fran Tarkenton and Earl Campbell are in and don't have championship rings.
 
 How about Archie Manning, Ken Anderson, John Hadl, and Jim Hart ???  Are
 they in ???  John Brodie, Billy Kilmer ???
 
 How about George Blanda ???  Did he ever play on a championship team ???
 
 Also, Sonny Jurgensen may have been on the 1960 Eagles title team but he
 certainly was not the top gun.  Norm Van Brocklin ran that team.
 
 Bob Hunt

merlin olsen, deacon jones
    

I think old George was still around in 76 when the Raiders won their first.
Also didn't he win the old AFL title when he was with the Oilers as the
QB with Charlie Toller and Billy Concannon???

mike    

    
    What about all those great Viking players? They don't have any rings.
    
    
    
    
                                                                        
    Steve

Geez, guys....Read what I wrote.

I didn't say you NEEDED a ring to make the hall of Fame.  After all
it's the Hall of Fame, not the Corridor of Champeens.

What I said was that the article I read put forth the premise that
when you have a ring, it's easier to get into the HoF.  The more
rings the better...

There's lots of guys in the HoF who don't have rings.....

Lotsa tough old bastards in their too, who I'll bet played before
they even thought of having a ring for a champeenship....

'Saw

PS  anyone know when the ring first became fashionable?

    Earl Campbell will *soon* be on this list (He hasn't been inducted yet,
    has he ?)

I wasn't trying to rag on ya `saw. I'm just curious. I wonder how many
there are without rings. What I'm thinking is that there's probably more
without than with.

Is there a list somewhere of who all is in the HoF? If we could get that
posted, then we could squabble about whether they had a ring or not!

;'D
Mike JN

    If I get ambitious enough over the next couple of days, I can post a
    list of Hall of Famers because I have it at home.
    
    John

    
    Max Yazgur.
    Johnny Appleseed.
    The guy in the Del (can't think of his name).
    
    Oh....I thought somebody said "Hall of Farmers".  Nevermind.
    
    Dickstah
    

    
    Dickstah! How could you forget Old McDonald???? Geesh, the guy
    literaly transformed the art of animal farming.
    
    
    
    Steve

    I have the list of Hall of Fame inductees and I'll get it typed in
    sometime today.  My friend Pete Palmer did a study of Hall of Fame
    inductees and found the parameters for induction seem to be as follows:
    
    1.  Having played on a Super Bowl Championship team.  This is helping
    the Packers of the 60s and the Steelers of the 70s and will probably
    help the Forty Niners of the 80s.  It hasn't really helped the Dolphins
    of the early 70s.  This can also lead to an overkill backlash where
    voters feel that too many have been inducted from the same team.
    
    2.  All-league teams, specifically, being named to the Pro Bowl, the AP
    All-league team and the Football Writers all-league team.  MVP awards
    and other all-league teams seem to carry little weight.
    
    3.  Career stats help, but not as much as you might think.  The
    all-time interception leader still hasn't been elected.  *QUARTERBACKS
    ARE RANKED MORE ON WINNING GAMES THAN WINNING PASSING TITLES.* 
    Efficiency seems to be more important than quality.
    
    4.  Career length in and of itself doesn't help.  Sticking around too
    long may work against a candidate.
    
    5.  Other factors - stay alive, stay out of jail, stay visible (ie,
    coaching or TV).
    
    Hall of Fame voting procedure:
    
    o	Anyone can nominate anyone simply by writing to the Hall of Fame. 
    Players must have been retired for 5 years and coaches for 1 year.
    
    o	30 people make up the Hall of Fame selectors.  This body is made up
    of one media person for each NFL team, an "at large" media veteran and
    a representative from the Football Writers of America
    
    o	These selectors get the list of nominees down to 14.  There's an
    Oldtimer's Committee within the board who nominates a 15th
    representative from the past who is expected to have had 60% of his
    career 25 years before the election.
    
    o	The selectors then vote on these 15 nominees to narrow the list to
    7 nominees
    
    o	The final vote is held on the Saturday before the Super Bowl. 
    Procedural rules state that each class has at least 4 but no more than
    7 members.
    
    John

    
    What determines when a coach is "retired?"
    
    Isn't it possible for a coach to achieve greatness, then come back out
    of retirement and be dismally ineffective for another 15 years?
    
    Dickstah
    

The Hall of Fame was founded in 1963 and its charter members are Sammy Baugh,
Bert Bell, Joe Carr, Dutch Clark, Red Grange, George Halas, Mel Hein, Pete 
Henry, Don Hutson, Cal Hubbard, Curly Lambeau, Tim Mara, George Preston Mar-
shall, Johnny Blood (McNally), Bronko Nagurski, Ernie Nevers, and Jim Thorpe

George Halas was inducted while still active as a coach.  Paul Brown was induc-
ted 5 years after leaving the Browns and a year before he founded the Bengals.
He was the head coach of the Bengals for their first 8 years of existence.

I don't have the list of the 1991 inductees in front of me but here are the mem-
bers of the Hall of Fame through 1990 (I tried to put them in two even columns
but I must have counted wrong)

Herb Adderley		1980		Don Hutson		1963
Lance Alworth		1978		John Henry Johnson	1987
Doug Atkins		1982		Deacon Jones		1980
Red Badgro		1981		Sonny Jurgensen		1983
Cliff Battles		1968		Walt Kiesling		1966
Sammy Baugh		1963		Bruiser Kinard		1971
Chuck Bednarik		1967		Curly Lambeau		1963
Bert Bell		1963		Jack Lambert		1990
Bobby Bell		1983		Tom Landry		1990
Raymond Berry		1973		Night Train Lane	1974
Charles Bidwill		1967		Jim Langer		1987
Fred Biletnikoff	1988		Willie Lanier		1986
George Blanda		1981		Yale Lary		1979
Mel Blount		1989		Dante Lavelli		1975
Terry Bradshaw		1989		Bobby Layne		1967
Jim Brown		1971		Tuffy Leemans		1978
Paul Brown		1967		Bob Lilly		1980
Roosevelt Brown		1975		Vince Lombardi		1971
Willie Brown		1984		Sid Luckman		1965
Buck Buchanan		1990		Link Lyman		1964
Dick Butkus		1979		Tim Mara		1963
Tony Canadeo		1974		Gino Marchetti		1972
Joe Carr		1963		George Preston Marshall	1963
Guy Chamberlin		1965		Ollie Matson		1972
Jack Christiansen	1970		Don Maynard		1987
Dutch Clark		1963		George McAfee		1966
George Connor		1975		Mike McCormack		1984
Jimmy Conzelman		1964		Hugh McElhenny		1970
Larry Csonka		1987		Johnny Blood (McNally)	1963
Willie Davis		1981		Mike Michalske		1964
Len Dawson		1987		Wayne Millner		1968
Mike Ditka		1988		Bobby Mitchell		1983
Art Donovan		1968		Ron Mix			1979
Paddy Driscoll		1965		Lenny Moore		1975
Bill Dudley		1966		Marion Motley		1968
Turk Edwards		1969		George Musso		1982
Weeb Ewbank		1978		Bronko Nagurski		1963
Tom Fears		1970		Joe Namath		1985
Ray Flaherty		1976		Greasy Neale		1969
Len Ford		1976		Ernie Nevers		1963
Dan Fortmann		1965		Ray Nitschke		1978
Frank Gatski		1985		Leo Nomellini		1969
Bill George		1974		Merlin Olsen		1982
Frank Gifford		1977		Jim Otto		1980
Sid Gillman		1983		Steve Owen		1966
Otto Graham		1965		Alan Page		1988
Red Grange		1963		Ace Parker		1972
Joe Greene		1987		Jim Parker		1973
Forrest Gregg		1977		Joe Perry		1969
Bob Griese		1990		Pete Pihos		1970
Lou Groza		1974		Shorty Ray		1966
Joe Guyon		1966		Dan Reeves		1967
George Halas		1963		Jim Ringo		1981
Jack Ham		1988		Andy Robustelli		1971
Franco Harris		1990		Art Rooney		1964
Ed Healey		1964		Pete Rozelle		1985
Mel Hein		1963		Bob St Clair		1990
Ted Hendricks		1990		Gale Sayers		1977
Pete Henry		1963		Joe Schmidt		1973
Arnie Herber		1966		Art Shell		1989
Bill Hewitt		1971		OJ Simpson		1985
Clarke Hinkle		1964		Bart Starr		1977
CrazyLegs Hirsch	1968		Roger Staubach		1985
Paul Hornung		1986		Ernie Stautner		1969
Ken Houston		1986		Ken Strong		1967
Cal Hubbard		1963		Joe Stydahar		1967
Sam Huff		1982		Fran Tarkenton		1986
Lamar Hunt		1972		Charley Taylor		1984
					Jim Taylor		1976
					Jim Thorpe		1963
					YA Tittle		1971
					George Trafton		1964
					Charley Trippi		1968
					Emlen Tunnell		1967
					Bulldog Turner		1966
					Johnny Unitas		1979
					Gene Upshaw		1987
					Norm Van Brocklin	1971
					Steve Van Buren		1965
					Doak Walker		1986
					Paul Warfield		1983
					Bob Waterfield		1965
					Arnie Weinmeister	1984
					Bill Willis		1977
					Larry Wilson		1978
					Alex Wojciechowicz	1968
					Willie Wood		1989

    

    Can someone be inducted twice, once as a player, the second time as a
    coach?

Thanks John... that takes a lot of work.

It's amazing (to me) but there's about sixty names there that I haven't
got the vaguest notion who they are.

Also....
	How in the hell did Danny Boy Reeves get into the HoF!?!?
	I remember him as a journeyman running back, but I never had 
	thought of him as HoF material.

Mike JN

    I *KNEW* someone would fall for that one!
    
    The Dan Reeves who is in the Hall of Fame was the founder and owner of
    the Rams from 1941-1971 when (right before his death) he sold the team
    to Robert Irsay, who in turn traded it to Carroll Rosenbloom for the
    Colts.  Rosenbloom wanted the Rams but was going to get hit with a big
    inheritance tax so he had Irsay buy the Rams and made the trade. 
    Rosenbloom later re-married (his wife, Georgia Frontiere now owns the
    Rams) and Rosenbloom drowned under some mysterious circumstances.
    
    John

    Keith MacNeal asked about people being inducted more than once.  No one
    has, but the following have been inducted for contributions in more
    than one area:
    
    Bert Bell		Founder of the Eagles, Commissioner 1946-59
    Guy Chamberlin	Player and coach in the twenties
    Ray Flaherty	Player and coach 
    George Halas	Player, coach, team owner
    Walt Kiesling	Player and coach
    Steve Owen		Player and coach
    
    Tom Landry is in as a coach but not for his playing, for example. 
    Raymond Berry and Mike Ditka are in as players but probably won't be as
    coaches.  If Chuck Noll ever gets inducted, it will be as a player, not
    as a coach.  Art Shell is the only other one in there who I can think
    of who might go on to have a great coaching career.
    
    The only person I can think of who has Hall of Fame credentials in more
    than one area is Al Davis - as Commissioner of the AFL (note:  it's not
    the NFL Hall of Fame, it's the Pro Football Hall of Fame), founder and
    owner of the Raiders and as a coach.
    
    The most under-represented areas in the Hall of Fame are, as players,
    Tight Ends.  The only one in there is Mike Ditka.  The other area is in
    officiating.  The only one in there as an official is Shorty Ray, who
    was Supervisor from 1938-56.  That could change with the retirements of
    Art McNally and especially Jim Tunney.  Tunney is the youngest official
    ever hired by the NFL (age 30), the youngest man to become a referee
    (age 37), the only referee to ever work 2 consecutive Super Bowls and I
    think he worked at least 3 total.
    
    John 

    
    re: John
    
    	John, don't you need to reverse your statement about Chuck Noll?
    At best he was only an average player for the Browns.  As coach of the
    Steelers, he has won 4 Superbowls.  When, and not if, he is inducted,
    it will be as a coach.
    
    							bill..g.
    

    TE is a relatively new position, hence not as many great players. And
    the fact that the selection committee is pro-establishment and petty is
    denying John Mackey (voted the greatest TE in NFL history) his rightful
    spot n the Hall of Fame.
    
    And what the Hall is doing to Al Davis is beyond a travesty.

    Bill, I obviously meant inducted as a coach, not as a player. 
    Something got scrambled between the brain and the fingers.  thanks
    
    

I'm surprised Forrest Gregg is in, but Jerry Kramer isn't.  I always
thought Kramer was better than Gregg, but that's just opinion I guess....

'Saw

    	Kramer wrote a book and threw the block that got Bart Starr
    in the end zone to end the Ice Bowl game, but I don't know that
    he was better than Gregg, (Fuzzy Thurston was better than both) just
    more recognizable.
    
    				/Don

    Dock is correct about John Mackey. The Russ Francis/Dave Casper mold
    was taken completely from John Mackey. 
    
    Rich
    

    re .23
    
    Kramer was more hyped than Gregg, but I don't know about better ....
    
    Kinda like the Swann/Stallworth arguments .... Swann was graceful,
    made all of the highlight reel catches, but I'd vote for Stallworth in
    the HoF ahead of Swann - without hesitation.
    
    re John_H
    
    The NFL's all time pass thief was Paul Krauss if I remember right. I
    used to follow the Vikes as a kid, and I remember Krauss being a good
    safety, but hardly great. In fact, he was the wimpiest 'hitter' that I
    remember in the secondary. PK was the anthesis of Ronny Lott. Wideouts
    didn't fear him, and when I saw **Franco (Slip,Fall, and Run Out of
    Bounds) Harris** run up his chest, I strongly believe that he would
    have been a better nickle back today. 
    
    No, I don't think he was one of the greats .... a very good player at
    best, usually very solid or better. But no HoFer ....

    re .25
    
    Thanks Rich (where the hell have you been hiding ? :-).
    
    BTW, I'm casting my ballot for Kellen Winslow right now. When is he
    eligible ?

    
    Mackey was also well known for running over a variety of defensive players
    on his way to the goal line (ala Mark Bavaro).  
    
    Considering that Mackey was voted the best tight end in the NFL for the
    1st 50 years (while Ditka was also playing) and it's a joke he's not 
    in the HOF.
    

    
    re: John
    
    	Knowing you in here, I thought that you simply got the words mixed
    up, but better me pointing it out than one of the other
    broken_record.com noters..  A simple mistake, no problem.
    
    re: Doc
    
    	Why would Stallworth get in and not Swann?  The only thing
    Stallworth had/has over Swann was the fact that he played longer and 
    thus had more receptions.  Before Swann retired, Swann was the No. 1
    receiver on the team.  Swann also returned punts during his first
    couple of seasons, and I believe led the league.  Both of them have
    4 Superbowl rings with Swann also being a SB MVP.  Swann retired
    because of injury after only 7 seasons.  Stallworth continued on
    and to his credit, developed into a fine receiver.  But IMO, when they
    were both playing, Swann was the better of the two...but not by much.
    
    								bill..g.

    >  BTW, I'm casting my ballot for Kellen Winslow right now. When is he
    >  eligible ?
    
    I'm not sure Kellen will make it.  If not for that knee injury.
    
    The Chargers have 3 in Canton:  Lance Alworth, Ron Mix & Sid Gillman
    I would expect to see Dan Fouts and Charlie Joiner added to that list. 
    Maybe Winslow, but I'm not as confident.  What's interesting is that
    all inductees are from the offensive side of the ball.  Granted Gillman
    was the coach, but it was his offensive football that got him inducted.
    
    One other note of interest:  When I was at Canton, I expected the team
    displays to be protected somehow.  I reached right over the banister
    and touched Alworth's jersey.  I expected some photocell security or
    alarms and whistles or somethin', but there was no alarm at all.  Kind
    of interesting.
    
    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn

    re .29
    
    I dunno Goose. I guess Stallworth never got the recognition that Swann
    did. Remember Super Bowl XIII (?) against the Rams ? Stallworth made a
    couple of fantastic over-the-shoulder grabs in the 4th quarter. The
    first bomb gave the Steelers the lead, the 2nd one clinched the game. 
    
    And Bradshaw got the MVP and press .....
    
    More than anything else, it appeared to me that Stallworth was by far
    the tougher reciever. I remember Tatum and Ken Riley (?) saying that if
    you banged on Swann, he'd slow down. Stallworth was much more likely to
    stick his nose in the action in the 4th quarter against a physical team
    than Swann was, and in their opinion, Stallworth was a bigger headache
    for a secondary than Swann. I tend to feel the same way, if not as strongly.
    
    Mind you, I'm not calling Swann a wimp (even if does have a girly-mon
    name :-), I am saying that Stallworth was a tougher player (he was also
    the bigger of the two, and I liked him for that.
    
    Either way, I can't go wrong ....

I'm kinda shaky on Kellen's longevity factor.  I'd rate him as one of
the best to play that position, but it seems to me that he wasn't good
over a long period of time, and I'm not sure I'd consider him a
`complete' Tight End.... although I could be full of crap... but I don't
remember anybody ever calling him a blocking fool.

Riley Odoms, for the Donks, didn't have the single year numbers, but was
considered a premier tight end for a lot of years.

Mike JN

    re .32 .30
    
    I'd cast a vote of Odoms too. As for Winslow, he played from 1979-1989,
    11 seasons or so and came back from a major knee injury to be a solid
    player.
    
    Granted, the injury hurts his chances, but from 1979-86, he was the
    ultimate TE. Speed, power, and a good (if not devasting) blocker.
    Remember that the Chargers were a passing team, and that Winslow was
    part of that attack.
    
    I didn't really appreciate his talents until his retirement. I thought
    Keith Jackson would follow in his footsteps, but he isn't nearly the
    deep threat I'd thought he'd be.
    
    Back to Winslow ... maybe injuries hurt him, but Gayle Sayers played
    less time than Winslow, and it can be argued that WInslow impacted the
    TE position at least as much as Sayers did for RB's.
    
    And of course we all know about Namath, who basically had three or four
    good years, and the rest was injuries and old age. If Namath is
    deserving, I know Winslow is.
    
    Doc

    Lynn Swann was one of football's all-time great receivers.  He was made
    better only because opponents chose to doubleteam Stallworth in this
    no-win coverage situation.
    
    Stallworth was the better of the two.  Swann, however, deserves to be in
    the HoF also and I can't believe he was passed over for the likes of
    Earl Campbell this year.
    
    	--dan'l

Dock why don't you and Tatum give it a break will ya. Harris didn't gain
all those yards and make the HOF for running out of bounds. The man punished
people inside and out and saved himself a little wear and tear now and then.
Tatum's motives were understandable, he was out to sell books and as a Raider
naturally had a hatried for Franco the Steeler. Franco was an awesome back
who doesn't deserve the knock that has followed him thanks to a mediocre
corner who's only claim to fame is that he hit hard and talks a good game...

mike

    re .35
    
    Earl Campbell was the most intimidating runner in football for five
    years. Bar none. From what I've seen in films, only Jim Brown could
    punish tacklers the way Earl could, and in his prime you saw defenders
    trying their damnest to avoid collisions with him. 
    
    True, his longevity wasn't as great as some other backs (I blame Bum
    Phillips for that), but he was at the top of his class long enough IMO
    to be a HoF shoo-in. Swann will get in eventually, probably next year,
    but he wasn't as dominating a WR as Campbell was a RB. That isn't a
    knock on Swann either - that was a result of playing on a Chuck Noll
    offense.
    
    re .36
    
    Mike, Tatum wasn't the only guy to say that about Franco. Far from it.
    And from what I gathered, Tatum wasn't really slamming Swann, he was
    stating fact. Swann wasn't a big guy, and was somewhat fragile. He
    wasn't a wimp, but he wasn't a ironman. And if you rocked him early and
    hard, you could take the starch out of some of his crossing routes
    (which wasn't helped by the fact that Bradshaw had a bad habit early in
    his career of throwing balls 8 feet high over the middle) - Stallworth
    was a different breed of cat.
    
    Both deserve to go in the HoF, but I'd want Stallworth on my team if I
    had to pick a WR from the Steelers, and esp. if I didn't have a
    Stallworth-type on my roster ....
    
    Doc

    
    Doc, what about, Larry Czonka, Marion Motley and John Riggins? 
    I would consider them in the "hurting the opponent" category
    along with Brown and Campbell. Larry Czonka actually used to 
    draw personal fouls from the way he used to stick it to defenders.
    Marion Motley was a friggen load and a half! The guy used to carry
    defenders across the goal line and then spike them, thinking they
    were the ball! 8^)
    
    Steve

    Doc,
    
    How could you forget Jim Taylor, in my book, he was better than any
    other runner except Jim Brown.   Earl was a load, that's fer sure, and
    one of my favs when he played.   And if you really want to go back, how
    bout Bronko Nagurski???
    
    Out of the bunch, however, Jim Brown made the best movies, and Earl the
    best commercial (Skoal, brother) with ZOnk's cruise ship commercials a
    close second.
    
    Campbell was punishing, but he also got the worst of the hits than any
    of the other punishing back named.  
    
    JD

    re .38 .39
    
    Good notes gents. And I realize that I may be biased. But with all due
    respect to Larry C., Earl was also faster than the Zonk. Motley was a
    great one, but he also wasn't keyed on as much as Earl. Riggins is one
    of the more underrated backs of his time, but he didn't intimidate
    players the way Earl did. 
    
    I remember times when Earl would blast through the line, and you would
    see some serious half-hearted attempts at 'tackling' on the part of
    DB's and many LB's.
    
    Seldom do you ever see offensive players intimidate defenders - it is
    usually the other way around.
    
    For me it is the combination of speed AND power that separated Campbell
    from Taylor and Czonka. (Note : I'm speaking of pure running ability,
    not blocking and pass receiving.)
    
    Nagurski was a legend, I would have loved to have seen him in action.
    And the stories about him and his power are legend ... my favorite was
    the time he pointed directions to a traveler - with a plow ..... :-)

    And I remember when Donnie Shell ended Earl Campbell's career with one
    hit.  Earl was never the same after that smack in the ribs.  Maybe
    Franco knew what he was doing when he headed for the sideline's, huh?
    
    	--dan'l

    What?  No one has mentioned Alan "The Horse" Ameche, a Baltimore Colt?
    One tough son-of-a-gun.
    
    My favorite, tho, was Jim Taylor, and for this reason:  He used to
    *look* for a defender after getting thru the line and then *AIM* at
    them!  He did it in a gome one time, broke thru the line and into the
    secondary.  He could angle himself into the endzone, only one guy left.
    But no, he ran right at that defender, bowled him over, then rambled
    into the endzone. 
    
    Later, Lombardi asked him why he did it.  His reply was something like
    "Just wanted to rough 'em up, coach."
    
    There have been some very tough, and very punishing runners in
    football.
    
    Campbell was certainly near the top.  With thighs that resemble the
    average guy's waist, he was some specimen.  Doc, I agree that Phillips
    probably shortened his career.  Too bad.
    
    One guy who never got to play in the NFL was Ernie Davis.  He was one
    of those great runners from Syracuse, but died before he ever played a
    game as a pro.  What a shame.  I understand he was a very nice person,
    too.
    
    Can anyone list the string of runners Syracuse had, starting with Jim
    Brown and going in order?
    
    Lee

    Lee
    
    Jim Brown 
    FLyod Little
    Larry Czonka
    
    were 3 of em.
    
    I know I'm forgetting some - used to know it by heart.
    
    Never saw "The Horse", except in hilite films - but my dad anguishes
    over the name, since Ameche is the guy who scored the winning TD in
    "The Greatest Game Ever Played" - The Colts OT win over the Giants in
    58.  
    
    JD

    
    Didn't Leroy Kelly go to Syracuse?
    
    
    Steve

    JD,

      How could you have forgotten lil' Joe Morris. I believe hes the
      all-time SU rushing leader too.

   Chuck

    I'll look it up tonight, but the SU parade of running backs goes
    something like this:
    
    Jim Brown (who was also All-American in lacrosse and who used to play
    		by cradling the ball against his chest and then bulling his 
    		way up the field)
    
    Ernie Davis
    
    Jim Nance
    
    Floyd Little
    
    Larry Csonka
    
    Then a gap of a few years before Joe Morris, and they really haven't
    had a truly outstanding runner since.  They've had some good ones but
    not the great one.  Syracuse's leading offensive players since the Dome
    was built have been wide receivers - Tommy Kane, Scott Schwedes (yes,
    he's Gerhard Schwedes' son), Rob Carpenter and Rob Moore.
    
    I don't think Leroy Kelly went to Syracuse but I'll check tonight. 
    I'll be able to determine whether or not he went to SU, but if not, I
    don't think I'll be able to look up exactly where he went.
    
    John
    

    
    I thought Alan Ameche was real good in that movie about all the old
    people that went swimming in that space alien swimming pool and learnt
    how to break dance.  Wasn't Lee in that movie, too? 

>    I thought Alan Ameche was real good in that movie about all the old
>    people that went swimming in that space alien swimming pool and learnt
>    how to break dance.  Wasn't Lee in that movie, too? 


Yeah, Lee is that guy who hypes oatmeal on TV.

In that movie, all those old folks used to eat oatmeal and have lotsa
prune juice every morning.  Nexted thing you know, they found the
fountain of youth after they mated with the aliens ( the movie didn't
show that part, but it was heavily implied).

So, anyway, they all stopped eating oatmeal and prune juice, and started
having tacos and beer for breakfast.  

They also beat a bunch of young guys on the hoops court, but those guys
were really Snuffy Smif's men, and everybody knows they cain't play D.....

'Saw

    Lee,
    
    I recall watching the Packers/Giants games of ??? years ago and
    watching Jim Taylor line up Sam Huff. Both taylor and Jim Brown felt
    that Huff was over rated and always attempted to show him him. Jim
    brown had the speed and power of a locomotive. The best ever. He could
    give you the tough inside yards or could turn on the juice outside if
    needed.
    
    John Hendry brought up a name that has been forgotten; Jim Nance. Nance
    led the AFL in rushing one year and ran very much like Jim Brown. I
    remember seeing a game where he burst through the line and got into the
    secondar and OUTRAN the cornerbacks. 
    
    There were other great ones. Someone brought up Marion Motley. Has
    anyone seen the clip where some guy tackled him so hard that his
    (Motley) helmet popped off and yet he still carried the ball and that
    tackler over 15 yards downfield?
    
    How about Lenny Moore or John David Crowe or Don Bass or Larry Brown?
    Then there were Paul Woods, Cookie Gilchrist, Abner Haynes, Matt Snell
    and Emerson Boozer. 
    
    I would have to rate the best power backs, though as follows:
    
    1. Jim Brown
    2. Earl Campbell
    3. Jim Taylor
    4. Cookie Gilchrist
    5. John Riggins
    
    To see Jim Brown play made you love the guy.
    
    Rich
     

    Rich, I'd have to put Czonka on that list somewhere.
    
    Yeah, I always thought Huff was overrated, too.  I blamed Chris
    Schenkel for it, he was the Gints TV man back then and he'd announce
    that Huff either made the stop or was in on the tackle, almost every
    play.  I didn't see it, but supposedly he once said Huff was in on the
    tackle, while he was on the bench during that particular play!
    
    Jim Nance was a tough son-of-a-gun, too, but I wouldn't rate him in the
    top 15 or so, even tho I'm a Pats fan.
    
    If you want to talk just about tough, Leon Hart was one tough guy.  He
    played for the Lions back during the 50's.  One game, he got a kickoff
    and was coming up the left sideline.  A defender hit him
    helmet-to-helmet.  The defender was carried off of the field
    unconscious, Hart just kept running down the sideline.  He wasn't a
    running back, tho.
    
    Seems to me John David Crow was a pretty rough guy, too.
    
    Cookie Gilchrist, yeah a mean man for those Bills.
    
    There was one other guy that always got my attention.  He had to be
    tough, he was only 5'4" or so.  Charlie Tolar, the "Human Cannonball",
    also known as the "Human Manholecover".  He ran so close to the ground,
    tacklers would get really frustrated trying to bring him down.  Played
    for the Oilers, I believe.
    
    Enough digression, tho.  Suffice it to say they have been many, many
    tough characters in the NFL.  
    
    Lee

    Leroy Kelly went to Morgan State, not Syracuse.
    
    The big name rushers at Syracuse were as listed yesterday - Brown
    (54-56), Davis (59-61), Nance (62-64), Little (64-66), Csonka (65-67)
    and Morris (78-81).  Of that list, Morris leads all time with 4299,
    then Csonka with 2934, then Little with 2704, then Bill Hurley (QB from
    75-79) with 2551, then Davis with 2386.  Brown is 8th all time with
    2091.
    
    John 

    	Huff overrated?  Could it be because he played in New York?
    Nah!  Jim Nance used to have a weight problem.  I remember one year
    they threatened to make him a defensive lineman if he didn't trim
    down.  Really the guy had about 2-3 great years and that was it.
    But in those 2-3 years he certainly was exciting.  If he played
    in New York, who knows?
    
    				/Don

    
    re .41
    
>    And I remember when Donnie Shell ended Earl Campbell's career with one
>    hit.  Earl was never the same after that smack in the ribs.  Maybe
>    Franco knew what he was doing when he headed for the sideline's, huh?
    
    HAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!!!
 
    Dan'l what is next ?
    
    Goldilocks and the 3 Bears ?
    
    Goose, PLEASE straighten this fool out !!!!!
    
    I remember the game quite well. And needless to say, Dan'l has lost
    most of the real facts with time ....
    
    It was Earl's rookie year, and the Steelers were playing at the Dome.
    The game was for the AFC Central lead, and talk about a war ! I think a
    combined 7-8 players were knocked out of that game due to the hitting. 
    
    Anyhow, it was the first half, and Earl got a handoff, blew through the
    hole, ran over a guy, spun out of 2nd defender ... and WHAM ! Shell was
    good and lucky enough to blast Earl in the ribs with his helmet. 
    
    Result : Earl left the game, and missed the next one due to cracked
    ribs.
    
    Now remember people, this was Campbell's ROOKIE year .... according to
    the FAcks Man (Dan'l), Earl's career took a nosedive after the hit.
    
    So tell me, who was taking the handoffs from Pastorini when the Oilers
    made the playoffs and went to the AFC title game ?
    
    Who was that No 34 dude who took the Oiler back to that game the next
    year ?
    
    And who rushed for over 1900 yards the year after that ????
    
    Well Dan'l ???
    
    And I thought Schneider was clueless in the facts department ....
    
    Doc
    
    p.s. As hard as Shell's hit was, it only ranked NO 2 on my hit list on
    Campbell. Jack Tatum *drilled* Campbell earlier that season. He hit
    him so hard that Earl got turned around, and staggered backwards into
    the end zone. Tatum fell like a tree. One awesome hit.

    
    
    	Well Doc, since you asked, I don't remember the hit!  How's that
    for honesty?
    
    	But, what I do remember is that Campbell was an awesome runner
    no doubt about it.  He'd probably rank right up there in the top 3-5
    if he didn't go out early.  Mind you, for those 7 years he was awesome.
    
    	But the main thing I remember is that Campbell never ran well
    against the Steeler's.  I think his per carry stat against the
    Steeler's was little over 2 yards per.  The Steeler's always seemed to
    handle Earl real well and in fact, I can't remember Earl killing the
    Steeler's, but I'd have to check.  
    
    	Other than the fact that the Oilers burnt him out against the
    league and more importantly against the Steeler's, he was a great
    runner.  
    
    							bill..g.
    

    re .54
    
    Goose, I remember Campbell having a huge Monday night game against the
    Steeler's (3TD's), and a coupel of other good games, but I'd agree with
    you, Earl never ripped the Steel Curtain for 150-200 yard games.
    
    But just remember that the Steelers also used to bring 7-8, sometimes
    NINE men up to the LoS to stop Earl. Nobody can run against that type
    of front, and usually the games were in December, when you had a slick
    turf, cutbacks were next to impossible. 
    
    Even so, if the Oilers had had a better coach than Bum Phillips, they
    would have developed a stragdy to beat that kind of defense (like how
    about some more 1st down passing Bum !) - but they didn't.
    
    But the only man I ever saw run successfully against the Steelers with
    any consistency was OJ Simpson. I'll never forget the time he ran for 
    220+ yards on the Curtain - the best performance by a back against a 
    superior team that I have ever seen ...

    The biggest reason Campbell was shot after 5 years in the league was
    because the man paid no attention to conditioning. He never worked out
    during the off season and was always out of shape. The guy was a physical
    speciment and didn't need to be in top shape to run over people but 
    after a while it caught up with him.

    He was dead tired after every run and it took him along time to get up.
    It seemed he was hurt on every play but sure enough on the next play
    he was as good as new. He was fun to watch

Chuck

    re .56
    
    That is true Chuck. Earl was no Payton in the area of off-season
    conditioning. But I also have no doubt that Bum Phillips ran him into
    the ground. And that, combined with his style (Earl absorbed a lot more
    hits than most backs) led to an early burnout.
    
    But for 5-6 years, he was incredible ....

    
    re: campbell
    
    	Doc, below are the stats that I have (only the 70's) of what Earl
    did against the Steelers.  He did better than I had though, but didn't
    have the great rushing game.
    
    	1978	Oct. 23 @ Pitts.  3TD's, 21-89 yards, Houston won 24-17
    		Dec.  3 @ Hous.   0TD's,  7-41 yards, Pitts.  won 13-3
    playoffs	Jan.  7 @ Pitts.  0TD's, 22-62 yards, Pitts.  won 34-5
    
    	1979    Sep.  8 @ Pitts.  0TD's, 16-38 yards, Pitts.  won 38-7
    		Dec. 10 @ Hous.   0TD's, 33-109 yds., Houston won 20-17
    playoffs    Jan.  6 @ Pitts.  0TD's, 17-15 yards, Pitts.  won 27-13
    
    
    	All told in six meetings during the 70's, he scored 3 TD's and 
    rushed for 354 yards on 116 carries which averages out to 3 yards per
    carry.  I don't know what his totals were against the Steelers in the
    80's.
    
    								bill..g.
    

    Thanks. It was the 12/3/78 game that involved the D. Shell hit.

    
>    playoffs	Jan.  7 @ Pitts.  0TD's, 22-62 yards, Pitts.  won 34-5
    
    This was a great game.  My memory is that Campbell actually left 
    the game late in the 4th because he was so ineffective against
    the Curtain.  I remember having to go to some f&*(ing family thing
    (still p.o.ed about that, actually) during the first half, rushing
    home to turn on the game, and seeing Campbell on the screen with
    his 1st half stats: 17 rushes for 34 yards.  Psyche!
    
    Charlie
    

    I suspect that Campbell left the game late in the final period because
    the Oilers were down by 29 points. Methinks that any other team in the
    same spot would have pulled it's star too.
    
    I remember that game being played on a sheet of ice, and by the time
    the Oilers had gotten used to it, the Steelers had effectively ended the
    game.
    
    Houston had already won two straight playoff games on the road - to
    take out the Steelers in Three Rivers was a huge job, and one the young
    Oilers were not up to ....

       One of those road victories was the only playoff game ever in
    Foxboro. sure was cold that day!!
                                      Denny

    	Hey Denny I was at that game too.  Didn't someone throw a grill
    or something at Fairbanks when the game was over?
    
    				/Don

       I remember plenty of verbal abuse being flung at ol' Chuckie, but
    don't remember the grill.
                                   Denny