Conference 7.286::sports_91

    The h*ll with Wardle, Congrats to the Jints!
    
    My absolutely favorite team won in what I consider the best SB game
    I've ever watched.
    
    Really, tho, I wasn't going to watch the entire game, too many lousy SB
    games.  However, I couldn't turn from the TV!  It was a great game,
    regardless of which team won.  That loooooong 9 minute drive by the
    Giants was really something for a football fan to watch.  You had to
    admire the way they controlled the ball.  It sure reminded me of the
    old style of football, something which the NFC seems to have more of
    than the AFC - ball control.  Of course this translates into "running
    game", and the entire Giants offense must be congratulated.
    
    Buffalo has nothing to be ashamed of, being in it right to the last 4
    seconds.  It's a tough way to lose, but it's sure better than being
    blown-out.
    
    This game will become on of the SB classics no doubt.
    
    lEe

    .

    Congrats to the Jints!!  They won yesterday the old fashion way - they
    earned it!!  The "Hoss" played great, Bavaro played big, but the
    victory must go to the offense line.  I had Buffalo to the tune of
    $220, ouch.  Im sick, not only do I lose $220 to my bookie but they
    stoped running those Buggle Boy commercials with that foxy babe.  Once
    again, congrats to all you Jersey natives!  And one more final congrats
    to the real man in New York - George Young!
    
    Greg
    

    Hey Hawk, after all those third down conversions by the Jints Im ready
    to start drinking.  I think I will go right to the hard stuff!!  
    
    Greg
    

for Rick:

	Giants scored first, 3-0.
	Bills came back on a drive with a long catch by Lofton, led
		to a FG  3-3

	Bills went ahead 10-3 on a TD run after a nice drive.

	Bills extened lead, catching Hoss for a safety 12-3

	Just before halftime, Hoss leads Giants to a TD catch by Bakers 12-10


	Second half starts, Giants eat up 9+ minutes with TD drive, 17-12.

	Bills come back with a drive of their own, Thomas 31 yrd TD run 19-17.

	Giants eat up more clock, get FG 20-19.

	Bills attempt last minute drive, are held effectively outside
	Norwood's range.  With :08 left, Norwood attempts 47 yarder which
	goes wide right.

	Giant win 20-19.

more later,
'Saw

One of the three greatest football games I ever saw, even if the Giants
had lost I would still feel so.

Love the way Hoss moved the team.  A rather mixed offense, with a great
pass distribution amongst the receivers.  (Did you see that Dan????).

Have to love the Ingram catch on 3rd and 18, with him picking up 7 or 8
on the run following the catch.  Bavaro played well.  

This offensive line is so different from the Suburbanites of 1986.
I'll never bad mouth Jumbo again!  Great, great line play.

Was Ottis psyched for this game or what?

I'm glad we won though.  It proved to all the Doubting Thomases that
hard nose, straight ahead ball possession offense, coupled with good
staunch defense will win you championship games....

I'd like to see Hoss be the starter next year.  I feel he's much more
effective than Simms.  I'm happiest for him.....

'Saw

    Rick, all there is to say is that the Giants set a new Super Bowl
    record in time of possession -- 40 minutes, 33 seconds.
    
    Hostetler was more impressive getting up after some bone-crushing hits
    than he was running the offense, but that too was some very good
    leadership.  And he's a good dad too, making sure the first thing he
    did was get his boys on the field after the game.
    
    Buffalo was in it the whole way.   Neither team had a turnover...in
    fact, there was not a loose ball the whole game.  Ottis Anderson was
    MVP for some reason...guess they had to choose somebody from a total
    team effort.  
    
    Best shot was when Norwood missed the game winning field goal. 
    Every Giant and Giants coach was dancing and jumping.  And there was
    Hostetler just nealing on one knee.  He was either saying a silent
    thank you or choosing not to revel in someone else's misery...I prefer
    to think the latter.
    
    Stats to follow.
    
    	--dan'l

    Just reread my note.  Did I really spell "nealing?"  Chalk that one up
    to Monday morning.
    
    

Many thanks 'Saw, Dan'l,
    
Surprised to see Hostetler come through in the big one - I thought that he
just might do one of those build-up-to-the-big-game-and-then-fold jobs, but
I'm glad to see that he didn't.  Good for him - when Simms went out with that
silly injury I thought they were in big trouble.

I'm just glad that it was a good game and not a letdown.    

FWIW, I thought the two best teams were in so it didn't matter who won, though
I thought the Bills seemed a bit more exciting...

BTW, I think you meant neelying, Dan'l  ;>{))))))))))

HTH,   

rick

    Is time of posession overrated?  A team controls the football for  more
    than 2/3 of the game and only scores 1 more point than their opponent.
    
    Give the credit to the Giants D.  They set the tone right from the
    start forcing Buffalo into a 3 and out on the first series.

    John Hendry said it well last week; "time of posession is only
    meaningful if you do something with it."  

>>         <<< Note 89.15 by STAR::YANKOWSKAS "he shoots, he scores!" >>>

>>    John Hendry said it well last week; "time of posession is only
>>    meaningful if you do something with it."  

Ya, which is probably what we would all be saying if the last FG attempt
had been good.

You can turn the statistic around to say that the Bills' offense was
practically twice as effective as the Giants, and so on...

rick

    I liked yesterday's game.  I really like to watch old time, grind it
    out, smash-mouth football, and that's what the Giants play.  It worked.
    
    I don't think it proves that the no huddle offense is useless or a
    "girly-mon" offense either.  The no huddle worked reasonably well
    yesterday and got the Bills in position to score.  They either needed
    10 more seconds and/or 10 more yards.  I think the no huddle is a
    well-reasoned response to situational substitution and it by and large
    works.  When the Buffalo offense was working, it did move the ball well
    and did score quickly.
    
    Time of possession is, in and of itself, a meaningless stat.  It has
    been shown to have little positive correlation with winning and as I
    said last week, it's only meaningful if you do something with it. 
    Consider that the Bills scored only one fewer point and damn near won
    the game despite the large margin in time.  A case can be made for the
    Giants being relatively unproductive even after having the ball for so
    long.  That long drive was certainly a thing of beauty, though.
    
    John

    The "no-huddle" offense works best when it catches the defense without
    the "situationally correct" 11 guys on the field.  In the Jints' case,
    they obviously didn't care about the situations and just played the
    best 11 defenders they had.   *THAT* is smash-mouth football and the
    Bills came up a point short to it.
    
    And, in this case, I think the time of possession stat was important
    for this reason ... the Bills were coming of a 44 point game and a 51
    point game.  Last night, they just didn't have the ball for enough time
    to score as many points as they so obviously are capable of doing.
    
    Can't light 'em up if you don't have the candles in your hands.
    
    It's true that the Jints had to do something more than just send Matt
    Bahr out at the end of their long drives but the fact remains that
    Buffalo just didn't have the time to put 30-plus points on the board. 
    Their offense only put 17 up (defense got the other 2) and that was the
    story of this game.
    
    The touchdown with :30 left in the first half was massively *HUGE*. 
    
    My MVP would have been Mark Bavaro.  Stud of studs.
    
    Bob Hunt

>Surprised to see Hostetler come through in the big one - I thought that he
>just might do one of those build-up-to-the-big-game-and-then-fold jobs, but
>I'm glad to see that he didn't.  Good for him - when Simms went out with that
>silly injury I thought they were in big trouble.



I'm not, Rick.  Hoss has been in a shadow his whole career.  He did what
he had to do, and proved he's an NFL QB in the process.  With more
seasoning, he'll be a better leader than Simms, I think.  I like the
Offense with him in there....

'Saw

    Good game but far from the best. I thought the Jets-Colts
    and the Niners-Bengals, Steelers-Cowboys games were much better.
    
    Question: Did I miss something? I could have sworn that Thurman Thomas
    ran the ball a lot closer on the play before the field-goal attempt.
    After the dust settled, Norwood's kicking it from the 47. It was 3 A.M.
    so I could have been dreaming. Could somebody clarify the last 2 or 3
    plays for me.
    
    I was really happy for Hostetler. Parcells and Levy are 2 great
    coaches. I love running backs like Megget and Thomas.
    
    Ted.   

    
    I think Hostetler was in the right place at the right time, and didn't
    fold under pressure (which is maybe the most important quality in the
    post-season; see "John Elway"), but I'm still doubtful of his long-term
    prospects as a starting QB in the NFL.  If the Giants can maintain a
    running game by maybe injecting some youth at the position he'll be
    sufficient, but if they ever have to sustain real passing production
    like almost everyone else that doesn't have a great defense has to, 
    I think they'll be in trouble with Hostetler.  He just isn't that 
    sharp from what I've seen.  It remains to be seen whether he can
    consistently throw the ball downfield, which the Giants obviously
    didn't need this year but may in the future.
    
    Still, this isn't to take away from his performance in Super Bowl XXV.
    He'll never have to do another thing and his performance in the biggest
    game of the year will still always be remembered.  That's just the way it
    works in sports...
    
    glenn
    

    Great Game.  Although Simms didnt play in this Superbowl he did
    quarterback them to a fantastic start which helped them host the Bears
    in the playoffs.  I think all the credit goes to the organization, in 
    particular - George Young.  George Young is the guy behind the scenes
    that makes the Giants go.  When Phil Simms was announced as the first
    round draft pick many years ago, the new york faithfull booed.  Alot
    of you Jints fans didnt have a clue who Dave Meggit was did ya??? 
    George Young also hired Bill Parcells as head coach.  When you look at
    the great teams there is always one guy who makes the team - the team.
    Whats the word on Parcells, is he going to be the head man at Tampa Bay
    or what??   I cant stress enough just how important the front office
    moves are!  Joe Montana was a 3rd round draft choice!  Need I say more.
    
    Greg
    

    The 3rd down catch/juke/run by Ingram on the 9-minute drive was the
    biggest play of the game ! Awesome !
    
    Congrats to the Giants (Jints ?!?) !
    
    - The Doctor

    
    	Well after yesterday's game, I'm $60 richer, probably 2 lbs. 
    heavier from the beer I drank, and have practically no nails left. :)
    No matter if one was rooting for the GIANTS, Bills, or was just
    watching for entertainment, you *had* to love this game.  It had
    big plays, hard hitting, 5 lead changes, many key plays, and a
    dramatic ending.  It's games like this where it's too bad someone
    has to lose.  
    
    	Some key plays:
    
    	   - Lofton's 61yd. reception.  Came right on the heels of 
      	Bahr's FG, and gave Buffalo some offensive momentum.
    
    	   - The Safety.  Could have easily been 6 points instead of 2,
      	*very* smart play by Hostetler to hold onto the ball.  
    
    	   - Baker's TD pass.  Gave GIANTS O confidence that they could
    	score TD's.
    
    	   - The 4th down call.  If the GIANTS had converted that 4th
    	down near the end of the third quarter, they might have taken
    	a 24-12 lead.  As it was, it gave momentum back to Buffalo and
    	they took advantage.
    
    	Hard to say who the MVP should have been.  I won't argue with 
    OJ, but I would have chose Hoss(or, as I call him, Boss Hoss(tm)).
    Nobody, except GIANT fans, thought that he could pull it out.  He
    put up some great numbers, gave the team leadership, and took some
    tough hits.  I also thought that Thurman Thomas deserved some 
    consideration.  He was a thorn in the GIANT defense all day and 
    definetely had me scared during that last drive.  This year's Bills
    was the best team to represent the AFC since the '83 Raiders.  They
    are young, talented, and hopefully will benefit from this experience.
    
    	Definetely the best SB since Pittsburgh-Dallas in SBXIII.  I was
    glad that the troops in Saudi were able to watch it and experience 
    it with all of us.  
    
    						 glen j.
    
    
    	

    So has Phil Simms lost his job?

I disagree that Hoss isn't an NFL caliber QB.  He has a decent arm, and
is very mobile, adding a new look to the Giants offense.

His passing ability will come with playing time.  It's already good, and
the kind of accuracy which he wasn't displaying early comes with a 
lot of PT.

I liked the distribution of passes.  While Dan is fond of saying the
Giants WR aren't world class, I feel they're decent and have some talent, 
as was evident yesterday in the work of Baker and Ingram.

I really would like to see Hoss be the starter next year.  I really feel
that in the 5 or 6 games that Hoss has started since Simms got hurt, 
there were a lot of plays where, had Simms been playing, they would have
been sacks.  Hoss has some mobility, which very often gets a little 
something out of nothing...


Regarding Norwood, I really feel for him.  This is the type of thing where
he will either come back strong, or never be much good again.

And hey, all the Buffalo fans can be thankful that he missed a long 
FG just barely wide right.  I mean, I remember Karliss in Super Bowl XXI
horribly shanking a couple...

'Saw

I thought Thurman Thomas should have won the MVP because no one really
stood out on the Giants.  The Giants got very good games from OJ, Meggit.
Bavaro, Hoss, The offensive line.  Thomas ran over 100 yards (?) and had a lot
of receiving yards as well.

I disagree that the Giants defense played really well.  The inital note
stated that you win the big game with defense and although I agree with
the statement I don't think it applies here.  I also find the statement
that the defense held Buffalo out of Norwoods range "way off base".
A 47 yard field goal is 50-50 and he had plenty of leg on it.  In fact
the defense almost blew it.  The Bills drove from the 10 yards line to
the Giant 32 in the last 2+ minutes to have a reasonable chance at winning.
I feel the Giant offense deserves almost all of the credit.  The made the 
big drives and held the ball for 2/3 of the game.  Consdiering the Bill
offense only had 20 minutes, they did fairly well.

Great game and congrats to the Giants!

                                                        Alan

	It didn't matter all that much to the Bills offense that they had only
20 minutes to score as opposed to 90 minutes. They had 10 "chances" on offense.
They scored on 3 of them, missed a field goal once, and punted 6 times. The
Giants defense shut them down 6 times. 6 times, where the Bills could have
kept the ball longer themselves. The Giants played their classic bend but
don't break Defense. On those 6 turns with the ball, Buffalo generated only
52 yards of offense. The Giants gave up 3 big plays - The pass to Lofton, 
the TD run by Thomas, and the 20 yard run by Thomas on the final drive. Their
pass coverage was so good on the final drive that Kelly HAD to scramble 3 times,
and completed only 2 short passes.

	As for Simms. As long is Parcells is there, Phil will be given every
opportunity to win his job back, just as Hostetler will be given every 
opportunity to keep it. Of course, Phil is a very proud guy, and I don't
think he'll take being a backup well. He never did when they were starting
Brunner over him, and he won't now. Simms may not have scrambled like
Hostetler, but he would definetely been able to roll our right or left and 
throw. Plus, his arm still seems superior to Hostetler's to me. 

	Jim M

I didn't realize Norwood's range was so limited.  However, I still feel
the Giants D gave the Bills the opportunity to win the game and overall
the didn't have a great game (good yes, great- no way).  The Giants D
played much better against the 49ers.  How did you feel about the Giants
D just prior to the field goal, after they had given up 58 yards in the
last 2 minutes?  

My point is that the Giants offense made the difference and deserves the
credit.

                                                    Alan

    Speaking of Parcells, any opinions/speculation as to whether he'll stay
    with the Giants or take the Tampa Bay job?
    
    
    py

    First, The D did well.  They gave up 17 points to the best offense in
    football.  Nuff said.
    
    Second, Norwood has some consolation. He has his champeenship ring from
    the FFL Champeen Pernicious Gits - Scot was my main kicker, and an
    integral part of my juggernaut.  
    
    JD  ;-)

    The only thing that makes me wonder is how often do teams lose after
    a big blowout.  Buffalo had the Raiders beat early and poured on the
    pts thus over confidating there players and making the giants want to
    hole them scoreless even more, the giants are not a defense you want
    to give extra incentive to....I remember seeing one of those ya hoos on
    sports channel talking about blowouts and a very low percentage come
    back and win the following games ???
    								MaB

    I cant you Giant fans cant stop bickering about who was more important
    the Offense or the Defense.  Who cares?  The Giants won the game and to
    all Giants fans thats the bottom line.  Ingram's run was the turning
    point in the game as far as I was concerned.  I can hear Berman now,
    Mark Ingram.  Berman must have used his usual "he could go all the way"
    for Thermal's run.
    
    Greg
    

The Giant win was a total team effort... Offense and Defense; but if you
have to pick a MVP, OJ makes as much sense as anyone. I think he had
something like a 120 yards and a five yard rushing average, and really
came through with some key first downs and ball control yardage.

I don't see how you could make Thomas the MVP (as someone suggested). 
He might have had better numbers than Anderson... but face it... he
didn't win... and that's what MVP's help you do.

Mike JN

My keys to the Giants-Bills Superbowl:

1.  Giants stopping Bills on 1st possession.  If the high-flying Bills 
score first time they have the ball, its over.

2.  Failure of Bills to score after the safety.  First, Landeta made a 
great kick, and coverage was great.  If Bills score a TD, its over, and 
a FG gives them a 12-point lead.

3.  Hostetler's toughness in 1st half.

4.  TD at end of the first half.  Bills outplayed the Giants in the 1st 
half, had better field position, but end up only 2 points up.  Bad omen.
TD is a momentum shifter.

5.  The DRIVE.  Established dominance.  Gave Jints the lead.  Four 3rd 
down conversions, including the Ingram play.

6.  The second Drive - the one after the Bills score to go ahead, and 
leads to Bahr's TD.

7.  Forcing the Bills to call timeouts early.  Keeping the ball on the 
ground on that 3rd down play.  Good punt by Landeta to pin the Bills 
deep.  

8.  Forcing the Bills to use too much time in final drive.

9.  Oh yeah, Guytons hit on Reed - Buffalo receivers never recovered.

10. I wore my lucky shirt, my GIANTS socks, my herb Welch jersey, listed 
to Eric Clapton's song "The Core" and made chili.  ;-)

The keys that almost lost the game:

1.  The 2 man DL - no pressure on Kelly may have resulted in a field 
day.

2.  The 2 man DL - Bills could run at ease, too bad Levy didn't realize 
that.

3.  Going for the 4th down play.  I felt Gambler Bill would go for it, 
but thought a coffin corner kick would have been better.  This was a 
momentum shifter, and almost cost the Jints the game.

4.  Calling a sweep on 1st and goal - OJ got dumped for a loss - they 
should have simply ran straight up the middle 3 times.

Actually, I liked the way the Giants kept the ball on the ground 
on 3rd down.  It was reminiscent of Lombardi's Packers.  It's like,
we know what we're gonna do, the crowd knows what we're gonna do,
hell, even the Bills know what we're gonna do, but hey, we're gonna
do it....

By the way, I'm pleased to announce that I made the Madden Industrial
Strength Rugby team, for the way my stomach fits in my jersey 8^)

'Saw

>>I don't see how you could make Thomas the MVP (as someone suggested). 
>>He might have had better numbers than Anderson... but face it... he
>>didn't win... and that's what MVP's help you do.

So what you're saying is that the difference between Anderson and Thomas being
MVP is the 10' that Norwood missed by?  And if Norwood had hit the FG, then
Thomas would have been the clear-cut choice for MVP?

Don't get me wrong - I'm glad to see Anderson win it.  But I don't buy the
argument.

j.

Well, I disagree with the premise that an MVP has to be from the winning team. 
Anyway, I think Hostetler deserved it.  But wouldn't it be fun to hear "So
Thurman Thomas, your team just choked and lost the super bowl!  What are you
going to do now?" ;-).

j.

    Where did Parcells coach before he got the Giants job?
    
    Ted.

>>  It proved to all the Doubting Thomases that  hard nose, straight ahead
>>  ball possession offense, coupled with good staunch defense will win 
>>  you championship games....
     
    'saw,
    
    I thought John Riggins and Washington proved that against Miami in the
    early 1980's...
    
    PJ                   

 >>  you still have to score, but the other team cannot if they don't
 >>  have the ball... 
    
    Except of course when you score a safety!!!!
    
    PJ (who's just being technical)

    
    Great, great game.......
    
    After watching the first three quarters over again, I really do not
    think that OJ should have been the MVP. He was shut down in the first
    half. He had some real good runs in the third quarter, though.
    Personally I would have givin it to Hoistedler (sp?) He got his
    ass kicked the whole game and kept coming back. Next, I might have
    given it to Jumbo Elliot, everyone seems to have forgotten how he
    shut down the "NFL's best defender". Also a guy named Megget had a
    pretty good game.
    Granted, OJ had 102 yards and a good game, I just thought Hoss was more
    desrving (I could see the $ signs in his wifes eyes during the post
    game show!!).
    
    Definite turning point was Ingrams 3rd down conversion. I must have 
    watched that play 10 times last nite. He caught the ball took a hit in
    the thigh, a linebacker had him by the neck (I dont know haw he broke
    that one), spun, faked a safety out of his shoes, and finished it with
    two guys hanging on him while he was jumping and leaning on ONE foot
    for the first!!! Unbelievable!
    
    Dan Dierdoff SU*KS as a commentator
    
    Al

    Bill Parcells coached at New England, believe it or not.
    
    He was our linebackers coach in 1980 prior to going to the Giants to
    coach one of the defensive positions while Ray Perkins was head coach. 
    Perkins was receivers coach at New England through 1977, was San
    Diego's offensive coordinator in 1978 and then became Giants head coach
    in 1979.  Parcells joined the Giants in 1981.  Ron Erhardt went to the
    Giants in 1982, after being fired as head coach here.  Parcells was
    promoted to head coach in 1983 when Perkins left for Alabama and
    Parcells promoted Erhardt to offensive coordinator.
    
    John 

    So has the inevitable "I'm going to Disney World" commercial surfaced
    yet?

    Saw the Disney ad last night. Anderson says something to the effect
    that the Giants win was for the troop in the middle east instead of
    the I'm going to DIsney world stuff.. I liked it...
    
    REK

    I was very happy to here what OJ said instead of Im going to disney,
    and the commercials was still a disney comercial the add ends with a
    picture of disney and another comment about supporting the troops...
    
    Heart goes out to (field goal kicker name) they showed his stats and
    hes not very good from over 40 yrds, with 8 seconds left do you think
    they had enough time to throw a quick out, and even if no one was open
    did they have enough time to just throw the ball out of bounds, ive
    seen out plays take 3-5 seconds on many occasions, I dont recall it
    being 4rth down ????  Oh well dont matter now The Jints win and the
    afc will have to wait untill nexted year, I cant say for sure that AFC
    will win it but I can guarentee that an afc team will be tehre :-)
    								MaB

    Lynn Swann interviewed Marv Levy after the game and Marv pointed out
    that Kelly called Buffalo's last time out because he was shaken up. 
    Oh Well, if, if, if.  That is the most used word in life!
    
    Greg
    

    
    
    re .34
    
    Heard Parcells has told the Giants he would see them in the spring....
    
    So I guess he will be back for a bsck to back run.
    
    
    Lou

    Personally, I would have given the MVP to the Giants entire Offensive
    Line but, heh, I don't make the decisions around here.
    
    And here's one for all you would be coaches/second-guessers....
    
    If Ingram had been stopped a yard shy of the first down on his infamous
    3rd down play, would you (or would Parcells) have gone for it on 4th
    down or who you (Parcells) have attempted a 40 yard field goal??
    
    Remember, you are losing 10-12 midway through the 3rd quarter.
    
    PJ

    
    	Parcells also was the head coach at Air Force prior to coaching
    	at New England.  If I remember correctly, there was a period
    	between his stint at New England and New York where he was a local
    	high school football announcer here in the Springs.  It had
        something to do with his wife not wanting to leave here or some
    	such nonsense.
    
    	I'm surprised none of the Bills fans mentioned anything about
    	Leonard Marshall's "3 steps after the ball was released"
    	cheap shot on Kelly.  It didn't affect the outcome of the game
    	but it sure would have hurt the Bills if he was put out of the
    	game.
    
    Claybroon
    

    That's another "if" thing.  Lets put it this way, it Kelly would have
    gone down and been put out every Bill/Football should have been pissed
    off.  His hit on Montana however was very clean. What about ex Giant
    Jim Burt going after Hoss' legs??  Waters of Philly takes the cake
    though, that guy is downright dirty!!!!
    
    Greg  

His hit on montana was a spear by the rules of the game. Burt's hit On Hoss 
was less of a cheap shot then leonards. If you watch Burt's hit a second time
you'll see that he is coming up off of the ground and trying to reach the QB
any way possible. The closest place was the legs. I agree he should have been
penalized for going in helmet first but Leonards hit was much more intention to
injure than Burt's was.


Metz

    Marshall used his shoulder on Kelly.  It was late (and was flagged),
    but it wasn't vicious (e.g. a spear, a knee-take-out, blow to the
    head).

    If If IF....I bet everyone in Buffalo is asking why not 1 more play
    with 8 seconds, and as noted before they had 12 seconds and they threw
    the ball into the ground to stop the clock they should of had an extra
    play ready or tried one more with 8 seconds, it may have not changed
    the outcome, but try anything when you know your out of your FG kickers
    range..Oh well...As far as the so-called spear on Montana....ya gatta
    love it...guy makes a great tackle and certain fans say it was a spear
    it was at most close to a spear, but there were a few guys standing
    around with yellow flags in there pockets who get paid more than us to
    decide weather it was a spear or not......I take there opinion over a
    49er fan (in this situation).....Congrats to the Giants it was a well
    deserving Win seeing the path they had to take....
    								MAB

>..guy makes a great tackle and certain fans say it was a spear
>    it was at most close to a spear, but there were a few guys standing
>    around with yellow flags in there pockets who get paid more than us to
>    decide weather it was a spear or not.....

If you bothered to read previous notes you'll find that I said that the little
men with the yellow hankies never make this call unless the player is already 
on the ground...

>..I take there opinion over a
>    49er fan (in this situation).....

I've also never been a fan of the 49ers....I've always been a bengal fan
and a fair-weather fan of whatever city I happen to be living in. Perhaps you 
should take 3-4 seconds to think before you spout off at the keyboard Mbrooks.


Metz

    both teams had their chances to open up a considerable lead.  After the
    Bills got the safety, I felt the Giants were in trouble.  But the Bills
    not only failed on the next series, but the next few series.  From the
    time of the safety until the Giants closed to 12-10, Buffalo had
    numerous chances to take command.  Likewise in the 2nd half, the Giants
    had the chance to take command after the short punt by the Bills.  But
    the 4th down stop gave momentum back to Buffalo.  BTW, I agreed with
    Parcells going for it. 
    
    As for the field goal, I was surprised at how far Norwood kicked it. 
    That kick would have been long enough from 55 yards.
    
    The Giant O-line did play great when the Giants ran the ball, but their
    pass-blocking was practically non-existent.  Hostettler was getting nailed
    all day and had very little time to throw when he dropped back to pass.  
    But much of the credit goes has to go out to their O-line, because
    their run-blocking was the reason the Giants was able to dominate time
    of possesion.
    
    LT sure had a quiet game.
    
    
    Joe
                 

    Attacked by the blindside when I wasnt looking (-2)...It doesnt really
    matter because if that play never happend certain individuals would
    find another turning point in the game to disect and blame someone
    other than the 49ers for the loss...Bottom line even with the refs
    favoring the 49ers they couldnt overcome the SuperBowl Champions the
    NY Giants.....Im glad that one call may have went NY's way, maybe
    Leonard Marshall should get MVP for knocking out montana and getting
    them into the superbowl....Although Ive Always liked OJ even if he
    didnt perform at a higher level then the rest of the team I was gald
    to see him get it...Hes seasons are numbered, id say one more tops..
    
    								M_A_B

    
    Just getting nit-picky.......
    After watching the tape of the game, Thurman Thomas' 31 yard TD run
    should have never counted, 'cause Everson Walls was clearly clipped
    (I know, "Illegal block") as he went for the tackle. No official
    ever saw it, regardless of how much money they make.
    
    Buffalo played really well, but after the Giants "D" had about an hour
    to rest (drive before the half, extended halftime, drive after the
    half), there was no stopping them. Does anybody know haw many QB's
    that defense knocked out of game this year (including Montana), esp.
    in the second half of the season??
    
    Still the best Superbowl of our lifetime,
    
    Al

    I too thought it was a clip from the way he went down.  From what I
    remember, though, the guy hit him below the waste but his helmet was on
    the side rather than behind...which is not a clip but an illegal
    block...right?
    
    	--dan'l

When I first saw it, I thought it was a clip immediately.  

I haven't seen a good replay of it, but will watch the videotape (which
i have to copy from my bro's) and see.  At any rate, it was either a clip
or an illegal block which was missed.

At this point in time, the point is moot.....

'Saw

    Just a comment on the niners-giants game.
    
    I have mucho respect for Montana but after he was ko'd by Marshall,I
    thought Steve Young moved the ball relatively well in that last drive.
    He had more success(yardage -wise) in that last possession than Montana
    did in the majority of the 2nd half. If it wasn't for Craig's fumbles
    ( two! Collins should have had the first one) SF would have been in the
    Super Bowl,IMO undeservedly so, but hey, wouldn't be the first time
    that a team that had been outplayed won a game
    
    
    MikeL
    

    Isn't the definition of an illegal block different within a buffer zone
    around the line of scrimmage?  Is that where this block occurred?
    
    And let's forget about the MVP to Leonard Marshall for knocking Joe 
    Montana out of the game stuff.  Steve Young was moving the 49er 
    offense just fine in the one and only possession the Niners had after 
    the injury.  The game was in the bag, done, finished for the Giants, 
    when Roger Craig fumbled.  That was the key play, not what happened 
    to Montana.
    
    glenn
    

    Those two fumbles by Craig just might have cost him his job.  I watched
    sports look the other night and the word is that both Roger Craig and
    Ronnie Lott will be unprotected by the 49ers.  Boy you Giants fan dont
    miss a thing, I didnt even see a clip on the Thomas run.  The reason 
    the niners didnt win the whole thing this year in my mind was from a
    lack of a running game.  It is hard to win games when the other team
    knows you will be in a passing mode all day.  There defense is still
    great, the quarterback and backs are fine.  They need a more effective
    running game next year to soften up the opponents defense.  I think the
    Giants can improve in the passing department.  They are just the
    opposite of the 49ers.  What happens when you cant run the ball on your
    opponent??  Philly showed us what!  Oh well so much for my 2 cents +.
    
    Greg
    
    

Walls legs were cut down from behind, almost as if they were pinned
and he fell forward.

However, I DO have to watch it again to be sure....

'Saw

    
    One last point about the clip, it was clearly behind the leg, between
    Walls' knee joint and calf (calve?) muscle. The hit was from the
    opponents helmet/shoulder. Walls had a perfect bead on Thomas for the
    take-down when it happened. Walls got up looking for a ref with his
    arms waving, but got no call, I think all of the officials were dazed
    in awe while watching Thomas run the ball in, it was a amazing run.
    
    Al 

    
    RE:Roger Craig
    
    Its weird that craig was coming off of one his best seasons,last
    season, not only with his play, but also with all of the publicity he
    recieved for that underware poster he did for JC Penny (or Sears?)
    He was such a big part of SF's offense. The this year he gets hurt,
    comes back, is ineffective, fumbles, and now the Niners do not seem to
    care if they lose him...........Its a short life!
    
    
    
    Al

I caught HBO's Inside the NFL show last night.

I taped it and watched the clip play several times.

The Buffalo DB's haid was in front of the knee, the left shoulder
hit behind the knee and against it.

Under the rules I think that's an illegal block, NOT a clip, however,
I feel that rule should be changed, because any time you're taking out
a knee in that manner, it fits the original spirit of the clipping
rule, which was to prevent major knee blowouts on blocks like that....

later,
'Saw

I totally agree 'Saw. I watched the show last night also. The buffalo player
should have been flagged for an illegal block. The only reason I can give
for why he wasn't was that the official just wasn't looking at the play.

Now get back to that Unix stuff :-)


Metz
 

>I totally agree 'Saw. I watched the show last night also. The buffalo player
>should have been flagged for an illegal block. The only reason I can give
>for why he wasn't was that the official just wasn't looking at the play.
>
>Now get back to that Unix stuff :-)



I think that they should keep that a clip if it's against the knees like
that.  Make an illegal block up higher.....


As to UNIX, it's a rush and a half.  After working with VMS for a long
time (feeling like I was flying a 747) now I'm revelling in the 
free and unbridled atmosphere of barnstorming programming.  Like I've
climbed into the cockpit of an old Stearman biplane, I can feel the
wind in my face as I push the bird through all her paces.....

'Saw 

    C'mon guys!  We have enough girly-mon rules protecting the QB, do we
    really want to start putting unneccessary protection rules for would be
    tacklers?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the blocker has his head out
    in front of the blockee, it isn't an illegal block, is it?  

I don't really care where his head is.  8^)

Clipping was put in the rules to prevent blindside hits in the
knee area, which will blow out a knee real quick.

I agree, they have too damn many facets of the rules.  Just look
at the pass interference rule (if the db is looking at the ball,
if the ball is catchable, if the moon is in its last quarter,
if the ref's dog is in heat etc etc etc).

But the clipping rule is one that I don't think they should have tinkered
with.  A blind side hit against the knees like that should be a clip,
plain and simple....

JMHO,
'Saw

Anyway, the point is moot since the Jints won! 8^)

>>  Clipping was put in the rules to prevent blindside hits in the
>>  knee area, which will blow out a knee real quick.
    
    What's in the rules to stop a full-frontal hit like the one Hostetler
    took in the Niners game??  I was sure they were going to have to
    amputate.  (Can't remember the Defensive Player involved, but I'm sure
    you all know the hit I'm talking about.)
    
    
    PJ
    

Speaking of hose-headed has-beens

We weren't??!?

Oh.. well, I still think Norwood is - and should be - history.

ANYBODY can miss a 47 yard field goal, and lose the Superbowl.

I know *I* could!

However, when you pay an individual somewhere between $150,000-$300,000
to kick a football, I'd think THOSE are the 47 yarders you'd be expected
to make. 

And when you miss `em, you can expect to find yourself walking down the
road kicking rocks, and carrying a little pinkslip in your hot little
hand.

Mike JN

Funny part is, I know a guy who routinely boots 'em from
50 yards and over, and his agent can't get him a tryout
anywhere....

Damn glad HE wasn't playing for the Bills!

'Saw

    
    Question for someone, Heard this morning from a friend that the new
    coach fom Tampa Bay (the guy who subbed last year) backed out and 
    Bill Parcells is the GM and new coach. Can anyone confirm this
    bullsh*t.
    Mr "NY Giants Childs??? anyone???
    
    thanks 
    kevin
    

    
    
    Not from what I heard 3 hours ago.
    
    
    Lou

What I heard this morning was that part of the team was sold to someone
outside of the Mara family.  I don't have any other details, sorry....

'Saw

    The half of the team owned by Tim Mara, nephew of (and battler with)
    Wellington Mara was sold to Robert Tisch, brother of Larry Tisch who is
    the primary owner of CBS.  In other Giants news, Offensive Coordinator
    Ron Erhardt was promoted to Assistant Head Coach.  Al Groh was promoted
    to Defensive Coordinator and Ray Handley was promoted to Offensive
    Coordinator.  It is being rumored that Handley is being groomed as the
    eventual replacement for Bill Parcells.
    
    The Giants were originally owned by Tim Mara, Sr.  Tim had two sons,
    Wellington and Jack.  When Tim died, Wellington and Jack each inherited
    half the team.  When Jack tied, his son, Tim, ended up with that share. 
    Wellington and young Tim have never gotten along.
    
    John

    The News siad that the cost was a mear $150,000,000 for 1/2 the team
    .........
    								MaB

       I heard 2 different reports, one said $60mil. the other $100mil.
    The troof probably lies somewhere in between.
                                     Denny

    Ha ha ha, that's a damn beauty there, Mike.  :*)
    
    Lee

    Here is some info for those Giants fans like myself. Pepper Johnson
    sign a contract and reports are that he'll be in camp by the end of the
    week. Does anyone have info on the other holdouts.....this can include
    the other 27 teams in the league as well. 
    		The Rookie ( thanks Hal..I like it)
    

    
    Can someone fill in the Rookie on the use of the R-word in the Giants
    note?
    
    Bruce

    I heard on the radio that Hoss will be starting the pre-season game
    against the Pats and that he will be the starting QB on opening day. 
    Is Simms still injured?

No.  Right now Simms is just plain pissed off.

Phil always has had an ego problem.  I don't remember if it was in here
or in GIANTS, but I entered an article written about him after the playoff
loss to the Rams two years ago.  It was about his attitude and everything,
and his failure to admit that his shortcomings had cost them the game.

It will be interesting to see if Phil can reconcile his ego with his
position on the team.  

'Saw

    Heard an interview with Simms after he had calmed down. He stated that 
    any QB that started for 10 years would be upset but no that he has
    calm down he wishes nothing but the best. He supports Handley's
    decision and hopes Jeff has a good year. He and Jeff are close friends 
    and he said he would not jepordize their freindship for the starting
    position.He was also asked if he wanted to be traded. He said point 
    blank, Where would I want to go. I've been with the Giants since "79"
    and with the Giants is where I'll be until they don't want me. When 
    and if I'm needed to come in, I'll be here. 
    
    Sounds like Simms finally grew up. 
    
    Other news:: Jumbo Elliot is reporting to camp. Roberts is said to be
    in soon. No word on Megget and I think Ingram should be looking for a
    new job. Odessa Turner looks to be the other starter with Baker.
    Has anyone heard who they are going to go with at RB? Looks to be a 
    repeat year for the Giants. 49ers might be starting Steve Young monday
    nite against the Giants. Montana has pulled himself out of the last
    preseason game with elbow problems. No word on what is wrong.
    
    			The Rookie

    RE -.1   Montana: He has Tendonitis in this throwing elbow. It is said
           not to be serious as x-rays have shown no ligament damage. He
           has been taking quartazone(sp) injections for the pain. Last night
           they did mention that the coaching staff is now getting a little
           worried but they think it is just sore due to the injections.

                                                               Richard

       Thanks 'Dr' Szabo.
                                        Denny  ;^)

    RE -.2:   Sorry!!  Wrong wordage...right info! No wonder this things
                       spelling check didn't show any version of that word!

                                                      Richard

Yeah!  Jumbo's back!!

Boy, I'd hate to try and loosehead prop against THAT guy.....

       Spelling check!!! Now that's a novel idea for this con4unz!!1
                                     Denny  :^O

    Richard, don't apologice.  Speling isnt' important, just apostrofee's.
    
    :*)
    
    lEe

    Saw -
    
    Think your are wrong about Simms' attitude.  The Rams loss was not his
    fault.  Parcells made a stupid call.  The defense sipped in the second
    half (no pass rush).  
    
    I don't think its really ego - but burning competitiveness.  Many
    players would have given up if they were Phil Simms.  Remember all the
    injuries early in his career?  Then he finally gets healthy, wins a
    super bowl - and gets no thanks from the fans.  Gets hurt last year and
    gets booed this year.  
    
    I saw an article that said SImms should be traded (they said to San
    Diego for Tolliver..) and let Hoss start.
    
    Also, Simms has thrown for  more yards and Td's than Joe Namath.  And,
    he has produced more winning teams in New york than Namath and
    Tarkenton  combined.
    
    JD

I don't want to see Simms traded.  

And I'm glad to hear that after he calmed down he displayed a team
attitude.

I think he's a superb quarterback.  I was just opposed to giving it to
him solely on the fact that he's been the starter for ten years.

And hey, how many teams have that good a backup QB? 8^)

'Saw

    Richard,
    
    If you (tm)'d that sucker, it'd be legitimate PLUS you get to be
    immortalized in the official TM note.  Don't delay, do it right
    away.
    
    JD,
    ~/~
    
    re:  Simms > Namath  
    
    Possibly so *IF* he gets an "*".  He played longer and had the
    benefit of "favorable Park Effects(tm)"
    
    ;^)\
    
    Kev
    

>And hey, how many teams have that good a backup QB? 8^)

    Denver has 3 of 'em.
    
    Mark.
    

    Kev -
    
    Simss has had less than 10 full seasons at QB (due to injuries).  How
    many did Joe "overrated" have.  Simms has an MVP SB performance (and
    greater SB numbers than Joe did) - and he was able to get his team back
    in the playoffs a few times (including 11-3 before injury lasted
    year..)
    
    Jd

    JD,
    
    Gwann, git outa here.....
    
    I will not allow myself to drawn into one of those little webs
    you weave so well, twisting dastistics(tm) to suite your little
    arguement.  *I* have truth on my side....
    
    and the truth is
    
    
    
    	B'way Joe always had better wimmin's  AND THAT, mon-ami
    
    	is the true measure of greatness!!!!!!
    
    
    
    ;+)
    
    Kev
    

    Kev -
    
    Yeah, but Phil Simms looks like me, and Joe Namath looks like Joe
    Pepitone in a fun house mirror!
    
    JD

    We are truley witnessing the end of an era, folks.  Joe Namath bashing
    has started and there is no Dan Schneider to pick up the gauntlet.

But somehow it's not as much fun, ya know.

It's like, something's missing.....

'Saw

         Pats beat the Giants????       What is the world coming to?
       
         If I were the Giants I would be really concerned about playing
    the 49ers on next Monday night!

         Looks as if Montana will be out for a couple of weeks, maybe
    longer they say. With Young at the helm 49er fans are not too concerned
    about the coming weeks.
     
         What happened to Simms? I did not see any stats for him during the
    Pats game.
                                                         Richard  ~~v~~

The Giants were incredibly flat during the game, and did not play fundamental
football well.

Actually, I'm glad they lost.  It was a classic case of hapless teams gears
up to play Super Bowl champs, Super Bowl champs take the game too lightly.

This should put their heads in order for the Niners.  The O-line needs to
concentrate a little more.


Simms did not play.  Hoss played the first half, and did well despite
seive-like protection from the line.  Perez played late in the second half.

LT did not dress for the game.  The guy has massive guns.....



'Saw

       Good call /Don! Did ya get any takers? 
    EEE,EEE,EEE!
                                           Denny

 Shall we wake a sleeping dog ???  
 Shall we kick 'em when they're down ???
 Shall we count our chickens before they're hatched ???
 
 Sure, why the hell not ...
 
 How's life in the NFC East basement, Jints ???   A less-than-stellar
 1 win against 2 losses puts the Jints side-by-side the Pokes and
 looking up at the Skins, Eagles, and Cards in the NFL's toughest
 division, bar none.
 
 Jints look awfully confused out there and Ol' Hoss is writing hisself
 a one-way ticket back to the bench.   Bet Phil is eating this up
 inside.   Cain't be too long before the Meadowlands faithful let
 Handley know what they think of his quarterback choice.
 
 Ottis Anderson finally looks like the Plan B free agent he's been the
 lasted two seasons and the Jints' traditionally nameless secondary is
 getting toasted for some big ones.   Some players are standing out. 
 I don't think anyone hits as hard as Gary Reasons.   Geez, he
 starches people with textbook technique although he was half-asleep
 through the Rams game.
 
 Methinks Sir Bill Of Parcells remembered what the Jints did the
 lasted time they defended the Supe title and he got out while the
 getting was good.   Ray Handley has inherited what looks like some
 very complacent champions.    No way should the Fridge block a FG
 attempt.   That's just lazy special teams.   Breaks my heart.
 
 I don't think it'll happen (too much talent) but I'd *LOVE* to see
 the Jints dead and buried by mid-season.   A few more yawners like
 the lasted two weeks and it'll happen.
 
 Bob Hunt

> How's life in the NFC East basement, Jints ???   A less-than-stellar
> 1 win against 2 losses puts the Jints side-by-side the Pokes and
> looking up at the Skins, Eagles, and Cards in the NFL's toughest
> division, bar none.

Lookin' like it should look.  Although it does a body good to look
up at the teams and to know that even though you have momentarily
stumbled you will come back.  Perhaps it's even the weight of the
two Super Bowl rings that are weighing the Jints down.  Don't see
no ring on Randall's hand....
 
> Jints look awfully confused out there and Ol' Hoss is writing hisself
> a one-way ticket back to the bench.   Bet Phil is eating this up
> inside.   Cain't be too long before the Meadowlands faithful let
> Handley know what they think of his quarterback choice.

Wrong Ketch.  Here's the way I see it.  Hoss executed well yesterday,
as did Megget (except for the fumble) and Hampton.  O line gelled in
the 2nd half, and it was big plays from the Bears that put the points
up in the 2nd half.  (fwiw, most of the yards against the Jints this
season have come on four big plays).

Phil is supporting Hoss, and is more gracious in his conduct that I gave
him credit for early this pre-season.  (Source:  LT's Place TV show)

It's not Handley's QB choice, it's *Handley*.  While it's JMO, I think
he's useless.  The man couldn't motivate a snake to crawl or an addict
to light up the crack pipe.
 
> Ottis Anderson finally looks like the Plan B free agent he's been the
> lasted two seasons and the Jints' traditionally nameless secondary is
> getting toasted for some big ones.   Some players are standing out. 
> I don't think anyone hits as hard as Gary Reasons.   Geez, he
> starches people with textbook technique although he was half-asleep
> through the Rams game.

Anderson fills a role.  Personally I think that with Hampton in the stable,
OJ is over-used.

Collins is premier, although he got toasted twice so far this season, and
that's a rarity.  Walls, though elderly, is certainly crafty.

Reasons is doing the job, excepting the LA fiasco. 

Banks needs to come to the fore a little more, and LT has finally reached
a year where he's merely "human".


> Methinks Sir Bill Of Parcells remembered what the Jints did the
> lasted time they defended the Supe title and he got out while the
> getting was good.   Ray Handley has inherited what looks like some
> very complacent champions.    No way should the Fridge block a FG
> attempt.   That's just lazy special teams.   Breaks my heart.


My only gripe with Parcells was that he didn't make up his mind in time
to get Belichick at the helm.

Handley is not, I feel, the man for the job.  Some are born to lead,
Handley isn't, IMO.

Handley has been running the offense in a most odious manner.  I don't 
see any semblence of a plan in what he does.  I could not understand the
consistent running attempts against the "College" defense Chicago used
exclusively on first down.

I could not understand going for it on fourth down on the goal line, 
especially with OJ and especially up the middle.  The Bears have always
bit big on the play action bait, and with Hoss back there it can work to
perfection.

 
> I don't think it'll happen (too much talent) but I'd *LOVE* to see
> the Jints dead and buried by mid-season.   A few more yawners like
> the lasted two weeks and it'll happen.
 
What your seeing quite bluntly (and YOU *KNOW* this Bob, my boy) is
what once was a finely tuned and balanced machine trying to drive down the
road after a couple of flat tires and running on 7 cylinders.

Personally, I think it'll get worse before it gets better, but there's
always the memory of being world champs to help get through a long season.
I guess that's a feeling no GreenBirds fan could have, eh?


[many 8^)]

'Saw

Bob, it is a pleasure to go up against such an esteemed noter as yourself,
and on ground that we're both familiar with 8^)

Yep, there was life before the Bowl, and the Giants had their share of
glory there also.  

In fact, that was a small bit of consolation in watching yesterday's game, 
because it was two of the oldest clubs in the league renewing one of the
league's oldest rivalries.

I think that Hoss is not being used as Hoss should be used.  If you took
McMahon and put him into the free wheeling offense that Randall used to
run, it wouldn't work as well, because McMahon can no longer (if he ever 
could) freewheel like Randall.  Same thing with the Hoss Man.  If you
put him in Simms offense, then it ain't gonna work.

If on the fourth down play yesterday, Hoss bootlegs, and the Bears bite
like they did last year, then we've got a completely different game.


On the past triumphs to tears (good line, btw) I didn't mean it like
that.  I meant it like it makes it easier to bear having them where they
are considering they won the Bowl last year.

LT.  Yeah, LT is thinking about golf in life after football, no doubt.
He said on his TV program that golf gives him the challenge that football
used to.  I wouldn't be surprised to see him attempt the pro tour after
football...

Simms vs Hoss.  No man in his right mind wouldn't be registering a high
reading on the Wood-O-Meter if he's getting the starting job back.  But
Phil is trying to lead from his current role and I think he's handling
it well....

Handley's shirts are as bad as the polyester pants Parcells wore in his
first season...  As you can obviously tell, I'm not a big Handley fan.

The rest of the season should be interesting.  It's imperative to take
two from the 'Skins, since they are the ones playing ball like we did
last year.  It's imperative to do well against the rest of the division.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if this team doesn't make the playoffs...


But, as someone who moaned and groaned and cursed throughout the 70s,
I'm used to dealing with such adversity...


'Saw

    RE LT's golf tour
    
    I wouldn't take LT's golf game lightly. Isn't that how he cured himself 
    of cocaine dependency a few years ago?
    
    Tom

    FWIW, I agree with a lot you said, Bob.  Especially on the Hoss thing. 
    I was shocked that Handley picked Hoss over him.  Hoss is, IMO, a good
    backup quarterback - but he lacks a lot in the leadership department.
    I'd rather see Phil in there in a heartbeat.  He's a leader.   He's 
    emotional (and yes, sometimes that isn't good....)
    
    I agree with ya on OJ too.
    
    But this team is an emotional wasteland.  Compare it to last years
    team.  The emotional fires were whipped by Parcells and Belechik.  The
    offensive emotional fires were whipped by Simms.  OJ provided example,
    and Bavaro quiet leadership.   On defense, the pulsebeat of the team
    was Pepper Johnson and of course, LT - with Walls, Reasons and the
    safeties playing backup.
    
    OF that crew, Parcells and Belechik and Bavaro are gone.  Simms is
    banished to the bench.  Pepper isn't playing with the same emotion.  LT
    seemed to be up in games 1 and 2 (didn't see yesterdays - only
    highlights...)
    
    There's a leadership void.  Handley doesn't seem to have the
    personality to be the leader.  The rest of the coaching staff seems
    more laid back.  And Hoss just ain't a fiery guy.  This team needs some
    emotion.
    
    JD

    There's no NFC East note so...
    
    The 'Skins sure brought the Cards back to reality yesterday!  I don't
    think they're that bad, but everyone knows the 'Skins are a better
    team.
    
    Bugel is now 0-2 against his old boss IN Washington and has been
    outscored 65-0 in those 2 games (lost 31-0 last year).  I think they
    scored against them here last year ;-)
    
    Mike

    The Cowboys ended their domination by the Giants yesterday.

I'll settle for nothing less than that infidel Handley's head on
a pole outside of Giants Stadium.

The throne should be returned to its rightful heir, King William
of Parcells.....


(sigh)
'Saw

    Something's really wrong when you throw for 400 yards and only have 16
    points to show for it (and only 1 TD reception).

>    Something's really wrong when you throw for 400 yards and only have 16
>    points to show for it (and only 1 TD reception).

My opinion is this:

	Two keys to yesterday's loss:

	1. Turnovers.  Most turnovers are caused by lack of mental
	   discipline.  There are some that are caused by the inevitable
	   helmet on the ball etc, but most are lack of md.

	   Coaches are responsible for drilling that into a squad.

	   Handley ran a country club, not a training camp.  Now he, and
	   we, are paying.


	2. Questionable coaching calls:

	   a) Jarred Bunch, rookie running back, in the lineup deep
              in Giants territory, very early in the second half.
	      Coughs up ball not doing what any good rb should do
	      down there.

	      What in blazes was he doing in the game.  Haven't seen
	      him all season.  Not the time to put him in.

           b) 3rd and short (1?) on the Dallas 3.  Should've run the
	      Hoss on the bootleg.  Nope, stuffed up the middle.

	      4th and 1.  Run that sissy delay of game call, as if
	      any Dallas players would be keying on Hoss's voice in
	      all the crowd noise.

              Fouts went nuts in the booth, I went nuts in the living room.
	      Handley's offense was moving at will, and he castrates them
	      right there.  BAD call....


Other than that there was no reason for the loss yesterday.  Handley
sowed his seeds in his country club training camp.  Unfortunately for
us, we have to watch while he goes to harvest....


'Saw

    What happened to LT?  I wonder if he'll play against the Cards on
    Sunday...

    
    >    If I remember correctly he injured his thumb and should be back for the
    >    Cards game.
    
    Well, I guess if he can shuffle a deck, he should be O.K. for football.
    
    
    Dickstah
    

    Couple of questions:
    
    1. How far is the Giants stadium from Boston? (time and distance)
                                                     
    2. Would it be impossible to get tickets for the Giant/Redskin game
       coming up in two weeks?
    
    
    Carlos

    1:
    
    between a 4-5 hour drive, I suspect.
    
    All Giants games are sold out.  However, you might be able to pay the
    "man" outside at scalpers prices. 
    
    Now, a chance to travel to football mecca is something every fan should
    do, but it may be worth your while to watch it on TV.
    
    Also, I assume you'll be in Mass/NH at that time for business/pleasure?
    
    I'll be in Nashua at that time.  Perhaps a mini-sports meeting is in
    the works to watch the Giants/Skins on Sunday night???
    
    JD

       it's about 200 miles and 4 hours.
                                      Denny

And you'll pay BIG BUCKS for a ticket from a scalper named Vito.

 Heck they even let the scalpers advertise. Just pick up any friday issue of
 the NY Post and there will be a page dedicate to these "ticket agencies" that
 can get you tickets to any game just call. No prices mentioned..

 I did call one of them a few years ago and endzones were 90.00 and 50 yard line
 was 250.00....

 mike

    Thanks for all the replies so far, looks like I'll be staying away from
    Vito and the gang! I wonder if the Patriots/Donks game is just as
    expensive.  
    
    >> Also I assume you'll be in Mass/NH at that time for
    >> business/pleasure ?
    
    I'll be/am working at the Mill for about a month, and staying in
    Westford, at the Westford Regency. Give me a call, I'm in room 205.
    
    >Perhaps a mini sports meeting is in the works to watch the
    >Giants/Skins on Sunday night?
    
    Yeah....mini-sports meeting huh?....maybe we can get together and go
    watch the Patriots humiliate the Donks.....? or vice-a-versa? Depending
    on the price? If not then the Giants/Skins game sounds good.
    
    Carlos

    Y.A. looked 65 in '65. Great QB
    

    Good 'ol Y.A Tittle, my idle as a kid, always wanted a solar panel like
    his, and now I gots one!!!!!
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Jake, does yours look as "dented" as YA's did?  :*)
    
    lEe

Okay, what's the Y.A. stand for?  I used to know.

It's something like Yelbert or something, ain't it??????


'Saw

    Yelberton Abraham? Maybe off a coupla consonants.
    Ninj will know fer sure.
    
    MikeL
    

    # 85  del shofner, great receiver , especially in  traffic, on the
    
    highway but on the field of play :)
    
    dinz
    

    Spider Lockhart RUUUULES!

    man, memmories, spider # 43, too bad he was never on winning team
    
    hes up there hitting a few people now i bet with the NY LOGO..
    
    meadowlands rocking sunday night, im getting pumped, hope the winds are
    blowing, LOMILLER is one hell ofa kicker
    

    Didn't Del Shofner go into music after playing for the Gints?
    
    Didn't he have a hit called "Runaway"?  
    
    lEe  :*)
    
    

    	Jim Katkavitch (sp?) with his crewcut and tooth gap used to
    look like Milton the Monster...

    Joe Morrison rulled.  I met him, and a bunch of the other Giants, at a
    special Season Ticket Holders Day at Yankee Stadium back in 1964.
    
    Really great.  He autographed this little football for me.  All the
    Giants were there, shaking hands with ticket holders and their kids -
    mostly boys like me.  Being on the field with all those guys gave this
    youngster a toothpick...
    
    JD

    
    
    
    
    
    How about 
    
    
    Sam Huff....and Chucking Charlie Conerly
    
    
    

    Dinz's favorite Midget is Phyllis Simms..... I heard they had a
    thing going on...
    
    Big Game

    
    >>Jake, does yours look as "dented" as YA's did?  :*)
    
    Yeah, but my "dents" are from headboards and angry husbands, not
    football caused "dents".
    
    JaKe
    

Dennis Faust mentioned over in the Eagles notes about Handley referring
to the team a lot a "They" in interviews.


Dennis, you are RIGHT ON!


I read an article that quoted Handley last night, and it shows just
how ignorant the man is.   When questioned on the defense he said
something like:

		
	They have enough veterans out there.  The veterans should
	be able to fire themselves up and make the hits, and the
	tackles. 


That in a nutshell is what this man's problem is.


This Giants team will never win with Handley as head coach and Groh
as defensive coordinator.  The team is talent laden, no doubt about
that, but good talent without good coaching is like a Formula I
race care without an experienced driver.

Handley is pissing all this talent away through his own ineptitude....



'Saw

 LT was quoted after the game ... said something like he couldn't
 remember any other game in his 11 years in the NFL where the entire
 team just flat out quit as bad as they did against the Eagles on
 Monday night.
 
 Also said he can't figure out why the Eagles intimidate them so much.
 
 Music to my ears ...
 
 Bob Hunt

    	So what do you think 'Saw?  Should we give Handley the cigarette
    and blindfold today or wait until the season's over?
    
    				/Don

Chap, 

You slay me man!


Slasher,

I like the idea of making Jim McFall the head coach, because he told
me I could be special teams coach.  If *I* coached the special teams,
they'd hit the opponents so hard that at least one opponent per game
would dump in his diapers....


'Saw

    I don't know .... I enjoyed watching the tape of the Eagles/Giants
    game.
    
    ;*)
    
    Dennis
    

>     -< I think DiNz would make a pretty good coach.  Better 'n Handley. >-

Slasher, you're on to something here, but not like you think.


	Have Dinz type up Handley's game plan, but we DON'T give
	Handley the decoder ring!!!!!!


Yippee, that's IT!
    

    
     Dennis...  I enhoyed watching the Birds slap the Midgets Too....
    
    Big Game

    JD, how is Phil Simms getting along these days anyhow ?
    
    And how about the Jints Run and Punt offense ?
    
    Heh heh heh ....
    
    Doc
    
    p.s. Boy, can y'all wait for the Oilers-Midgets game on 12-2 (??) ?

    
    Dr. ManyZeroes,
    
    	I am rolling on that "Run & Punt" line!  
    
    Claybone

    Doc -
    
    As anyone from the Jints notesfile will tell ya - I think the Jints
    made a monumental mistake going with Hoss - but they have a brain dead
    coach.  
    
    If the Jints played in the easiest division in football (AFC Central),
    and in the wimply AFC, they'd probably be 11-0 right now.  Cincy,
    Pitts, and Cleveland are 3 of the worst teams in football.  Real, real
    tough making the playoffs, right Doc?  Put them in the NFC East, DOC -
    and they'd be struggling for a wild card.  All them little wimply
    receivers be on the sideline looking for their mamma's after the
    whupping they'd be taking.  Worn Moon be picking sod out of his face.
    
    Of course, the NFC East wouldn't let a Dome team in that manly
    division.
    
    As for 12/2 - the Oilers will be favorites.  Personally, I'm hoping for
    cold, windy weather - and a nasty LT.
    
    JD 

    
    Run & Punt !!   Tooooo  Funny !!!
    
     You know that will fire up the Midgets fans
    
    Big Game

Doc Midnight walks the walk and talks the talk when his team
is on top, but when they're not he's nowhere to be found.

Quite unlike the Giants fans who have been in here taking the
lumps that should rightly go to the "Room Temp IQ" Coach Gomer Pyle
Handley.....

    Sorry 'Saw, but I've been here more through the bad times than the
    good, not the other way around. Nor did I make excuses when the Skins
    would find a way to lose to the Jints.
    
    Back to JD ...
    
    JD, if the NFC East was half as manly as you say it is, then you'd run
    the Cards and the Cowboys out, and use a little common sense geography
    and put the Falcons and Bears in the east.
    
    On a more serious note, not to pick on your personally, but you
    (generic) Midgets fans never really appreciated Simms when he was in
    there taking the hits (and he is one tough "sumofagun") all of those
    years. Hell, the fans screamed for "Hoss".
    
    And now y'all got him.
    
    Bon appitite' (sp) :-) .....
    
    Anyhow, this IMO, is a combination of a Super Bowl letdown and the fact
    that the Giants were NOT a great team. Hardly. They were a pretty/very
    good team that played to their best, and got a couple of breaks. 1991
    is as much a case of the breaks evening out, and simple human
    limitations.
    
    If Parcells stayed coach, the Jints would (IMO) only be 1-2 games
    better.
    
    Doc

    
     Doc,  
    
      As much as I hate to say this,  I think you're wrong.  The Midgets 
    are a talent loaded team.  Handely has cost them some close games that 
    they would have no doubt won under "Wild Bill"  (He just to much on 
    NFL Live).  The Midgets aren't playing Midget footbal anymore.  Some
    of it has got to fall into Handely's lap.  Other things that I think
    are contributing factors are the Phil Simms situation,  and the lack
    of hardnosed defense that was their trade mark.  Oh well,  My $.02
    anyhow !!
    
    Big Game

    Doc -
    
    I've never, ever, ever screamed for Hoss.  The biggest mistake Handley
    ever did was name Hoss QB.  IMO, the Giants would be at least 9-2 under
    SImms at this juncture.
    
    Once scenario in the Giants Newsweekly has Parcells leaving NBC to
    coach the Bucs - and getting SImms to be QB for his team.  If that
    happened, and the Bucs and Jints played - it would be the first time I
    ever rooted against the Giants.  I've been one of Phil Simms' biggest
    boosters.  He's been overlooked throughout his career.  He sucked up
    personal stats for the good of the team (remember, prior to the grind
    'em up game, Phil proved he could pass for 300+ a game - even with no
    good wideouts - including a 513 yard performance...)
    
    Hoss, IMO, is a great backup QB.
    
    JD

    Like I said JD, I wasn't going after you personally - I know you're a
    Simms man. I'm talking about the boos Simms was getting almost every
    year except 1985. Nothing he did was good enough.
    
    Sometimes, a team or fans can't appreicate a good QB until he's
    benched/injured/gone. Simms is one. Dave Krieg is another (I'm sure the
    'Hawks fans are a lot more silent after 4 weeks of Jeff Kemp ! :-),
    Doug in Tampa Bay, Pastorini in Houston, Sonny Jurgenson in Philly, if
    REALLY want ot go back a ways .... I can go on and on ... but some QB's
    aren't meant to be appreicated until after they're gone ....
    
    Doc

    
    I hear ya Doc - kind of like the booing Jim Rice got....
    
    Some Giants fans actually wanted Scott Brunner over SImms!!  Amazing.
    For all the ragging I do - I'll give Warren Moon credit for a lot of
    things - he's pretty tough - and he's a great person (from all accounts
    that I've read).   Just wish he'd chuck the ball to Drew Hill more.
    
    Also, Doc - did I hear correctly that Drew Hill is going to retire
    after this year?
    
    JD

    Give me Joe Pisarck (sp) any day over Simms ! :-)
    
    As for Drew Hill, he is due to retire after next year, from what I
    hear. Take it with a grain of salt. Hill reminds me a lot of Charlie
    Joiner in that neither man really came into his own until he was about
    30 or so (in Hill's case, it was due to playing with the pre-Zampese
    Rams and their Stone Age passing game), I personally think he can play
    Pro Bowl-caliber for at least two more years after this one.
    
    However the rednecks and peabrains in the Oiler front office seem to
    delight in giving Hill hell when it comes time to renegotiate his
    contract, and may very well be tired of the B.S. I don't blam (tm) him
    at all.
    
    [BTW, it is interesting that moer than a few people feel that Moon has
    been affected by the war concerning his bonus.]
    
    Doc

I always supported Simms while he was in there.  Back in 1989, when
he went down in the Minny game, I was really worried about Hoss.

However, last year I saw that Hoss added mobility to the offense, and
when Parcells used it properly it worked well.

Hoss got picked this year and I supported it.


What I don't support is that No Brainer Handley.  He was the RB
coach, and then got promoted to Off Coord.  Next thing you know he's the
head coach and then he keeps the OC job on top of that.  Smart...NOT.

Talent laden except for WR....  Coach wif no brain....


'Saw

 GIANTS will make the playoffs where they will knock off the Skins and meet
 the Eagles in the NFC championship game...

 you heard it here first....

 I like Hoss but I wish the coach had the filberts to create a rotating QB 
 system...it would really throw the other teams defense off to have to prepare
 for two QB's...

 ah never mind on second thought it wouldn't work cause even if they change
 the QB's it'll still be Rodney off tackle, Rodney sweep, Meggett inside 
 handoff, punt....

 ;^)

    re: 181
    
    I think your forgetting a few teams, like:
    
    	Bears
    	Saints
    	Lions
    	Cowboys
    
    All of which IMHO have a better shot at the Championship game than
    either the Eagles or the Giants.
    
    Scott

Have the Giants won a game this year against a team with a winning record ?


The difference betweeen Parcells and Handley is Parcells would take the game 
winning risky call fake Punt, 4th and 3 anytime in a game not when the outcome
required desperate chances. 
The timing of this call would almost always rally the team on both sides of the 
ball. This year Handley playing his games close to the vest and will only make
that type of call when the offense/defense is ready for it. 

Jeff

    
       They've beaten Dallas(9-5) and SF(8-6).  
    
       I saw the 14-3 score while turning channels and could have
    sworn I was dreaming.  Then reality set in when I saw the final.
    
       '87 was bad but this is more frustrating.  That was the 
    strike year, not to mention all the books, commercials, etc.
    This year, all the blame belongs with the coaching staff.  
    
    
    						 glen j.
                                                        

    Watching yesterdays game, I saw Lawrence Taylor and Jim McMahon both
    playing hurt and hurting their teams. McMahon couldn't reach the
    receivers on a simple out pattern, coming up about 5 yds short. Taylor
    was simply not able to move and couldn't change directions at all,
    which kills his game. I feel the Eagles were somewhat fortunate that
    McMahon got injured enough that he couldn't continue. If McMahon stayed
    in the game, I'm not sure the Eagles score enough points to win the
    game. Right now, it appears that mcMahon will miss both of the
    remaining regular season games and possibly the 1st playoff gsame, if
    the Eagles get that far. He has three or four broken ribs and they will
    take some time to heal. Right now, Jeff kemp is the man and the Eagles
    will need to bring in a new 3rd (or is it 4th or 5th) string QB to
    backup Kemp.
    
    As far as LT goes, I think yesterday he shouldn't have played and the
    Eagles exploited his lack of mobility, particularly Kemp. The Naked
    boot was a thing of beauty. Normally, LT would have crushed his spleen
    on that, but he just couldn't keep up with Kemp. It was also
    interesting to see his attitude near the end of the game. Only down by
    five and the Giants having the ball, LT was removing tape and his
    gloves, appearing to me as though he "quit", like he accused his
    teammates of doing earlier this season. No question he was quite broken
    up (and may have been crying), but the game wasn't over and he was
    throwing in the towel. I was interested in his comments after the game,
    but he didn't talk to the press.
    
    dennis
       

     Can't see L.T. giving up the fight....  Must have been something
    else going on there !!
    
    Big Game

>
>     Can't see L.T. giving up the fight....  Must have been something
>    else going on there !!
    
I don't remember that part of the game.  It's possible he could have been
yanked, and so desperately wanted to keep playing....

 Dennis they kept repairing that dam brace he wore during the second half.
 Madden commented on it more than once. I will agree with you though that
 a couple of late shots of him looked like a man who knew the inevitable
 and accepted it. 

 

    Theres nothing wrong with excepting the inevitable.  That is
    different than throwing in the towel.  As much as I dislike 
    the Midgets, L.T. is a great player and great players don't 
    give up, ever !!
    
    Big Game

    First off - I'm not sure I can think of another player - except maybe
    Jack Youngblood, who would have played with the injury that L.T. had. 
    He should have been sidelined for the year.  He's played on broken
    bones and with severely injured hamstrings.  He may have been told that
    he wouldn't be playing anymore - or perhaps he took himself out of the
    game after realizing that he wasn't able to do it.  
    
    JD

The toughest thing in the world in the athletic arena is having the
mind will the body to do something, and the body, because it's injured,
can't respond....

I remember that girl in the Ironman trying to walk across the finish
line and having to crawl...  


'Saw

    Naw, that was Joanne Woodward (Paul Newman's wife) in the made
    for tee vee movie about some wimmin running somekind of race.
    
    hth,
    Kev
    

Kev, are you on Droodshrooms(tm) again?

Like that line is "White Rabbit"

	and you've just had some kind of mushroom and
	you mind is......(forget that part)....


'Saw

    To the satanist coven down da street from me 8^)
    
    MikeL
    

    Alright,  What the #$%^&(^&* is a Drood...
    
    Big Game

       Drood is SPORTSlingo for Druid.
                                      Denny

    
     Oh you mean;
    
     a member of and order of priests in ancient Gaul and Britain
    who appear in Welsh and Irish legend as phophets and sorcerers.
    
     I got it now...
    
    Big Game

    
      Hey wait a minute Kev! I thought Drood(tm) belonged to Slasher.
                                   Denny

Slasher came up wif it, I think...

Big Game, scan the Junk Note for the Great Religious debates of Early Fall '91
for cross-references to SPORTS and Droods.  But please be aware that you
cannot reply to the debate since it has been terminated by moderator 
intervention.


'Saw

    re .193
    
    
    > Like that line is "White Rabbit"

    >	and you've just had some kind of mushroom and
    >	you mind is......(forget that part)....
  

        It's:
    
        And your mind is moving low
        Ask Alice I think she'll know
    

>    
>        And your mind is moving low
>        Ask Alice I think she'll know


Thanks Tommy.  I must've been on SPORTshrooms myself this morning,
because I just drew a big blank on that line...

later,
'Saw    

    	RE: A few back...
    
    	It was Julie Moss in the Ironman Triathlon. She ran
    	outa fuel and crawled across the line.
    
    	Joanne Woodward was in a movie about a middle-aged housewife
    	who decided to run a marathon.
    
    	Now, back to our regularly scheduled insanity,
    
    	Scott

    NEWS FLASH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
     Midget Out Of Playoffs...  No Excuesses From DiNsMoRe !!
    
     Film at 11:00

The New York media is roasting Handley over a slow fire.

Can't say as I blame them.  Hell, my dog coulda coached them better....


'Saw

    No excuses, effort wasnt there for total 60 minutes every game
    
    a very unispired team that under Parcells could turn it up
    
    but couldnt or  wouldnt under  Handley.. Sad to say, LT  IS
    nearing the end of his playing days, a hall of famer on the first
    ballot  no doubt.. wouldnt ya say Jackster?
    
    

>    but couldnt or  wouldnt under  Handley.. Sad to say, LT  IS
>    nearing the end of his playing days, a hall of famer on the first
>    ballot  no doubt.. wouldnt ya say Jackster?


LT is coming to the end of his career, however, I'd say he's probably
got three or four good years left.

The thing is that LT is the type of individual (and I can't blame him)
who will want to go out on the top of his peak ability, and not
retire 6 years down the road with two bum knees and a bad back or something.

LT will heal over the winter and be back....

Handley, I hope, will get hit on the head, get lost in America forgetting
who he is, and the Giants will get a new coach.....



'Saw    
    

    
     I agree DiNzY...  L.T. will make the HOF on the first ballot.
    Just like our Buddy John here in Denver.  Elway is the Proto-type
    QB and anyone with an IQ larger than their shoe size knows it.
    That leaves out all Raider and `Spots fans...  ;^)  ;^)
    
    BG

    Hey Big'n'Lame,
    
    The only HOF'ing Mr Ed and his Teef will do is Help Old Farmers!!!
    
    He does a Rock Hudson everytime he gets in the Super Bowl and
    chokes!!!!
    
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    
       ESPN SportsCenter had Fred Edelstein on lasted night.  
    Said that George Young has given Dudley, er Handley, what
    amounts to a 'vote of confidence', and that he'll be back
    nexted year.  Also said that even Young would be hard 
    pressed to keep Ray as coach if the GIANTS have another
    mediocre season.  
    
    
                                                 glen j.

    JaKe,
    
     Elway is twice the Player the Bradshaw ever was.  He's a shoe in 
    for the HOF on the first ballot.  The only reason Bradshaw ever won
    a SB is because of the Iron Curtain...  He was just a pawn in the 
    whole affair...  the real team was the "D"
    
    HTH
    
    Big Game

    HA,.. GOOD ONE BIG GAME..  Bradshaw  hung in there much like Phil Simms
    does... Elway goes and scrambles when the going gets tough
    
    dinz
    

    Big'N'Lame, now I'm beginning to find out just how full of sh!t you
    really are.  Mr. Ed'N'Teef cain't hold a candle to anything Bradshaw
    ever did.  You're probably just sore cause Terry B. blasted Elway for
    being the loser in the big one that he is.  Some of Bradshaw's passes
    to Swann and Stallworth in the Super Bowls are some of the Super Bowl's
    All-Time greatest highlights.  What does Mr. Ed'N'Teef have to put into
    the highlights, shots of him laying on his ass, or better yet, shots of
    him choking in a way Linda Lovelace never would have.
    
    'Nuff said
    
    JaKe
    
    

Well, I personally think Bradshaw was a better QB.  I really do.

I think that Elway's biggest problem is that a lot of times he doesn't
know when to take something off the ball.  There's a lot of times when
you have to cannon the thang in there, and he's GREAT at that.

But there are times when finesse is called for.


I'll admit that I don't see him play a lot though....


'Saw

      Bradshaw was alright,  but if you look at alot of those passes Swann
    & co caught,  they had to go to extremes to catch them.  I do agree
    that the Pitt "D" is what made 'Shaw better most of the time.
    
      You can't blame the SB losses on Elway!  When your defense lets the
    other team score millions of points on you,  well then it makes it
    tough to come back from,  and we all know that REeves and his play
    calling was "questionable"!!  Also Reeves gets his team motivated as
    good as a Rancher does to cows when its slaughter time, if that makes
    any sense.......
    
    
      Who cares anyway,  Elway is in class by himself,  and yes he does
    need to play better in the SB,  but so does the whole team,  and if the
    donks get back to the bowl,  I hope to hail that Elway calls his own
    plays!!!!!!
    
    	Tim

>      Bradshaw was alright,  but if you look at alot of those passes Swann
>    & co caught,  they had to go to extremes to catch them.  I do agree
>    that the Pitt "D" is what made 'Shaw better most of the time.

Bradshaw's passes weren't perfect spirals, true.  But most of the hightlights
we see now were Swann et al, making those ballet like catches.  Bradshaw
could MOVE that team.

    
>      You can't blame the SB losses on Elway!  When your defense lets the
>    other team score millions of points on you,  well then it makes it
>    tough to come back from,  and we all know that REeves and his play
>    calling was "questionable"!!  Also Reeves gets his team motivated as
>    good as a Rancher does to cows when its slaughter time, if that makes
>    any sense.......

Agreed.
    
'Saw

    
>>    Bradshaw was alright,  but if you look at alot of those passes Swann
>>    & co caught,  they had to go to extremes to catch them.  I do agree
>>    that the Pitt "D" is what made 'Shaw better most of the time.

> Bradshaw's passes weren't perfect spirals, true.  But most of the hightlights
> we see now were Swann et al, making those ballet like catches.  Bradshaw
> could MOVE that team.
      
    Sure, some of those catches were acrobatic, but the throws were
    right on the money in tight coverage.  Those balls didn't get to
    the right place at the right time by themselves...
    
    As for Elway, he didn't stand a ghost of a chance of winning with his 
    defense in the Super Bowl against the Giants and 49ers, but that 
    still doesn't excuse the fact that he played like crap in each (the 
    game against the Redskins was winnable but Elway did not maximize the 
    huge number of opportunities he had early-- the Broncs should have 
    been up 28-0 in that game).  The 49ers especially made Elway look like 
    a confused rookie.  The same thing holds for Elway as does in the 
    heated arguments around Randall Cunningham.  He'll win a lot of games 
    on natural talent that another guy wouldn't but it takes more than
    that to go to the next plateau against a dedicated, mature defense.
    
    Is that enough for the Hall of Fame?  It probably will be, but unless
    Elway's personal development continues to rapidly accelerate, I
    think it'll be mostly on reputation (which the PFHOF is famous for, 
    what with their induction of the likes of Bob Griese, etc.)
    
    glenn
    
    

    
>    As for Elway, he didn't stand a ghost of a chance of winning with his 
>    defense in the Super Bowl against the Giants and 49ers, but that 
>    still doesn't excuse the fact that he played like crap in each 

    Elway actually played pretty good in the Giant SB.  Granted, Denver
    should've had more than 10 points at halftime but the defense just fell
    apart in the 3rd quarter.
    
>    Is that enough for the Hall of Fame?  It probably will be, but unless
>    Elway's personal development continues to rapidly accelerate, I
>    think it'll be mostly on reputation (which the PFHOF is famous for, 
>    what with their induction of the likes of Bob Griese, etc.)
    
    I think Elway's on the borderline for getting into the Hall right now. 
    If his career was to end this moment, I would say he wouldn't make it. 
    He certainly doesn't have the glittery stats going for him.  He may
    need to win a Super Bowl to make himself a lock.
    
    
    Joe 
    

    
  
>    Big'N'Lame, now I'm beginning to find out just how full of sh!t you
>    really are.  Mr. Ed'N'Teef cain't hold a candle to anything Bradshaw
>    ever did.  You're probably just sore cause Terry B. blasted Elway for
>    being the loser in the big one that he is.  Some of Bradshaw's passes
>    to Swann and Stallworth in the Super Bowls are some of the Super Bowl's
>    All-Time greatest highlights.  What does Mr. Ed'N'Teef have to put into
>    the highlights, shots of him laying on his ass, or better yet, shots of
>    him choking in a way Linda Lovelace never would have.
>    
>    'Nuff said
>    
>    JaKe
    
    
     JaKe...
    
     I never said that Bradshaw didn't have a few highlights in his career
    as QB.  All I said is that it was his defense that won thoes SB's and
    not his average talent as QB.  Elway on the other hand was the Sole 
    reason that the Donks were in the SB all three times. And yes,  That
    did come back to haunt them.  If Elway had a defense behind him half
    as good as the Iron Curtain Denver would be 3-1 in SB's.  This years
    defense looks like it could get the job done, now, does Mr.Ed have
    one more shot left in him.  I hope so !!
    
    Go Donks,
    
    Elway Is Gawd
    
    Big Game

Jeez,

We're ALL messed up here.

First we start discussing the Giants in the Eagles file, now we're
discussing the Steelers in the Giants file...

So, for the record:

		Bradshaw (Steelers) belongs in the Steelers note.

		Handley (Bozo extraordinaire) belongs here, or in the
		looney bin, whichever is easiest....

'Saw

    ...and some of the language exhibited in some of these replies doesn't
    belong in the conference at all.

    You could make the 'receivers' claim for any quarterback if you wanted
    to.
    
    "Taylor and Rice sure made Montana, not vice versa..."
    
    "Maynard and Sauer made Namath..."
    
    "Joiner, Winslow, JJ, etc., made Dan Fouts..."
    
    JD

     Agreed, all except for Elway, who has carried every part of his team
    with his great ability and outstanding leadership.  I'll never for get
    the quote from "THE DRIVE" in Clevescum.  The Donks are down pts, they
    have the ball on like the 6 yrd line and Elway comes into the huddle
    and says "Ok guys,  we got `em right where we want `em"  And then in 
    Joe Namath style, delivers on what he said.
    
     JaKe..  Clean it up, would ya   !!  ;^)
    
    BG

    BG, I think that was Bishop or Bryan that said that.
    
    Joe

    
     Joe,
    
     SHHHHHHHHH......
    
     I know that,  but these other guys don't...
    
    BG

Back to the Giants


Belanchik is the guy you miss far more than Parcely. 
Handley has a offense that didn't light up a scoreboard last year, It played
well enough not to lose. 
Belanchik lit up the the defense he was the inspriation. 

LT and company don't know how to win without Belanchik. 

    Hey Slasher,   
    
     You think I might have a career as a NYC Sports Writer ?  Sounds
    like the kind of writing I do in here on occasion.
    
    BG

    Squawk,
    
    	Jack means the 3 that Elway played in.  The first one was
    	when ole Crazy Legs Morton led us to defeat.  In all, they've
    	been to 4.
    
    Claybone

 Big Game how dare you pollute the Giants' note with HOF crys for Elway?
 The only way he's getting into the HOF is if he buys his way in. Maybe
 Pat will give him the money.

 Glen, while I agree that Griese is a reach he does have some credential
 that Elway will never have. 2 SB victories and part of a perfect season.

 Now if they want to let guys in on unforfilled potential than Elway will
 be first ballot unanimous...

 mike

    
    >> JaKe..  Clean it up, would ya   !!  ;^)
    
    Hey A$$%^&*,
    	I am what the %@#& I am!!!!     (8^)*
    
    'Saw, I agree with ya on somehwere WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY back that one of Mr.
    Ed'n'Teef's biggest problems is not being able to take something OFF of
    the ball on the short passes.  Bradshaw's early problems stemmed from
    the same thing, breaking the receiver's hands on the swing pass, short
    pass, dump-off pass, etc.
    
    Re. Big'N'Lame  I consider Bradshaw to have been an above average QB.
    The early SB's were purely defense, whilst the lasted two were a
    combination of exciting offense and great defense.
    
    JaKe
    

    re .223
    
    I remember getting in this discussion as soon as I became a SPORTS
    noter. IMO, Bradshaw had two careers. The first one, 1969-76, he was a
    slightly above-average QB AT BEST. He was carried by the running game
    and Steel Curtain D (don't forget that Joe Gilliam almost turned
    Bradshaw into an afterthought). From 1977-82, he finally matured into a
    QB that could win big games with his arm (and God forbid I say this)
    and brains (on occasion).
    
    But early on, he wasn't even the best QB in his division (try Ken
    Anderson), much less the AFC (Stabler, Griese, Jones, Fouts) or the NFL
    (Stabauch, Kilmer, Tarkenton, Harris, Hadl, Manning).
    
    I think of Bradshaw pre 1977, and I see a mix of Elway and Vinny 
    Testerverde - great talent, questionable decison-making ....
    
    Doc 
    
    

    re Fouts,
    
    I know this isn't quite the note for it, but JD, I saw quite a bit of
    Fouts early in his career, and he was a different QB after Coryell got
    a line for him and JJ, Winslow and Co. 
    
    If a receivers and offense helped to make a QB, it was San Diego's.
    
    Doc

Doc, 

I think you've hit on the old QB maturing phenomenon.

Some guys have that kind of split-personality career.  Once they come
into their own, and everything peaks, look out....


'Saw

    GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWD, I hate to admit this, BUT, for once
    Dr. Midwife, I agree with ya on yer assessment of Bradshaw.  Hail,
    Gilliam won the starting job the beginning of the year they went to
    their first SB, but a little too many needles in his arm killed a
    career that could have been spectacular.  Gilliam had one fantastic
    arm, but drugs did him in.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    				W A N T E D	 
    						  o
    						     o
    						    o o
    						  ____
    						  |B |	
    						  |U |
    		Mike Childs			__|D_|_
    		3'7"			       <| 0 0 |>    
    		Blond Hair			|  ^  |
    		Blue Eyes			| --- |
    		Flat Head                      ~~~~~~~~~
    		Pointy Ears
    
    		WANTED FOR HIT & RUN NOTING
    
    		$.05 REWARD FOR INFORMATION LEADING TO AREST OR CONVICTION
    		     OF SAID CRIME
    
    
    BG
    
    P.s.  Elway is the GREATEST !!
    
    

    Kev, 
    
    My kids(at least that's what I'm told, though one looks suspiciously
    like the mailman!!)  (8^)*
    
    What is the diffeerence between fact and faith????
    
    When your mother calls you son, that's fact, and when your father calls
    you son, that's faith!!!   (8^)*
    
    
    JaKe
    

    re .242
    
    Perhaps Saw, but I just hate listening to people praise Bradshaw as teh
    Second Coming from Day 1, when in fact he spent a good chunk wallowing
    in mediocrity. If matured as fast as Montana or Cunningham, fine. But
    he didn't. If Bradshaw had retired in, say 1978, there is no way in
    hell he'd be in the HoF. 
    
    His last 4-5 years, he definitely earned his stripes.
    
    Which is why I crack up when he lays it on Brister - if Noll hadn't
    show outrageous paitence (sp), Joe Gilliam or Terry Hanratty might had
    led the Steelers to a couple of titles.
    
    BTW, Bradshaw is a pretty good analyst on CBS. 
    
    I NEVER thought that I'd see that !
    
    Doc

    There are several HoFers without rings.

    This is really gettin' to be a way lotta' fun, but I was hopin' to read
    about the Giants.
    
    (Or should I go to the Philly note?)
    
    M.E.

M.E --

Here's all you need to know about the Giants this season:


		Handley Sucks.

		Groh Sucks.

Repeat 16 times.


then repeat ad nauseum over the off-season......


hth,
'Saw

      Bradshaw would be a good ANALyst(tm) if his ego didn't get in the
    way.
    
      And as for the jints,  they stink this year,  but here's to them
    beating Houston in the final week!
    
    	Tim

    
     Yea,  Bradshaws ego is so big he has to deflate his head
    to get into the booth.  You know,  I'll bet the Elway is
    a better announcer/ANALyst(tm) than Bradshaw ever will be.
    In FACK(Tm),  it's Bradshaws supporting cast that has made 
    him look as good as he has thus far as an ANALyst(tm)
    
    ;^)
    
    
    Big Game

    M.E. -
    
    There is a N.Y. Giants conference - contact CAM::WAY or Brian Keane
    (forget his node) for details.
    
    Saw - cain you help???
    
    JD

    Hey Gamey,
    Sheesh, yo' nose cain't git any browner from spendin' so much time
    up Elways's posterior. 8^) Cripe the man's dang good, but he ain't
    worshippable (??). 
    
    MikeL
    

    re JaKe
    
    Jake, Gilliam (from all accounts I heard) didn't go to heroin until he
    got benched with a 4-1-1 record (still don't understand that one - but
    I bet Bradshaw thought that Xmas came real early in '74 !) - there is
    no doubt in my mind that the Steelers best QB (despite the crap he
    took) that year wound up on the bench.
    
    At least it seems that he got his life together now. Last I heard, he
    teaches/coaches at Tennesee  State

    One of the knocks on Handley was that he didn't hire an offensive
    coordinator.  During the Jets/Dolphins game, Paul McGuire said
    something about this.  He said that Handley wasn't given much of an
    opportunity to assemble a staff due to his late hire date.  So, it
    might not have been that Handley didn't want to hire an O-coordinator,
    but he didn't have time to.

>    One of the knocks on Handley was that he didn't hire an offensive
>    coordinator.  During the Jets/Dolphins game, Paul McGuire said
>    something about this.  He said that Handley wasn't given much of an
>    opportunity to assemble a staff due to his late hire date.  So, it
>    might not have been that Handley didn't want to hire an O-coordinator,
>    but he didn't have time to.


Not.

Handley had Ron Earhardt.  Airhead had been promoted to Assistant Coach
by Parcells, and Handley was the OC.  Then Handley moved to Head Coach
when Bill left.  He should have asked Airhead, who had a lot of experience
to be the OC.

Handley is the sorriest excuse of a coach I've ever seen.....


'Saw

 remember Frank plenty and I do mean plenty of room for improvement...

 what's a matter Santa leave you coal or somethin'....

 season's over the heck with Handley.....think about them Lats...

 you got a long way to go to catch JD.......

> remember Frank plenty and I do mean plenty of room for improvement...

It would be nice if our head coach had a little more than a Cro Magnon
brain, though 8^)


> what's a matter Santa leave you coal or somethin'....

No, actually Christmas turned out pretty well.  It was a weird holiday
season, though.  I guess because I've been so busy, it came on all
in a rush, and disappeared just as quickly.


> season's over the heck with Handley.....think about them Lats...

Yeah, I hear ya.  Had two days off this week (Monday and Wednesday)
which were my reward for being so dedicated.  


> you got a long way to go to catch JD.......

I know.  He has those monster lats, and no matter what I do, he always
seems to be ahead of me.....8^)

    Ron Erhadt was fired after 10 years as Offensive Coordinator of the
    Giants.
    
    Mark.

       Jints waived Maurice Carthon.
                                     Denny

>       Jints waived Maurice Carthon.
 

 f&*)()__(#)_(*FHJT%MVMHYUK$<)$%)^)^&_@&*)#)_Q(^+)_(*>& GIANTS!!!!!!

Heard the the giants wasted a first round pick nexted year on a tall but useless
qb in the supplimental draft. 
whatsa matter isn't one season Hoss good enough anymore and Phil can't hack it. 

Jeff

Actually, it didn't get much press in this area.  Just one article in the
Hartford papers.

My guess is that they are looking toward the future.  Hoss is 32 I believe,
and Phil is what, 37?   Time to start grooming the next QB.

Evidently George Young was really high on this kid. 


But to be honest, I can't remember the last time the Giants traded a #1
pick for anyone, and if that anyone turned out OK....


'Saw

they took him in the supplemental draft. Like the browns did with Bernice, the
Jets  did with Rob "all-dan-schiedair-world" Moore....

 mike

    Yeah, supplemental draft.  Figuring Simms is up there in age.  I guess
    if the Bengals can draft Klingler, why not...

                


	NEW YORK (UPI) -- The New York Giants selected former Duke quarterback
Dave Brown in the first round of Thursday's NFL supplemental draft. He
was the only player chosen in the draft.
	By selecting Brown in the first round, the Giants gave up their
first-round pick in next year's regular draft.
	Brown redshirted in 1988 and would have been a fifth-year senior for
the upcoming season. However, after the regular NFL draft in April, he
decided against coming back for his final season of eligibility because
he had already earned his degree.
	Brown completed 230-of-437 passes last season for 2,794 yards and 20
touchdowns, while being intercepted 15 times. He finished his career as
Duke's fourth all-time leading passer with 5,772 yards and his 42 career
touchdown passes place him third in Duke history behind Ben Bennett and
Steve Slayden.
	In his first career start with the Blue Devils, Brown threw a 97-yard
 touchdown pass -- the longest in school history. He also holds the Duke
single-game passing yardage mark with 479 yards against North Carolina
in 1989 and his 33 completions in that game ranks as the third-best
single-game mark in school history.

The Giants signed supplemental draft choice Dave Brown, of Duke, to a 4
year contract. Brown will get $4.6M, with $1.6M being a signing bonus.

The Giants lose their first round pick in nexted year's draft.

This gives the Giants 4 quarterbacks in camp: the Giants, who alreadly
have four quarterbacks in camp: veterans Jeff Hostetler and Phil Simms,
Plan-B acquisition Jeff Carlson and eighth round draft pick Kent Graham
from Ohio State.

TTom

 The T-shirt that launched a SuperBowl season. The T-shirt that spells out
 the battlegrounds, The T-shirt that puts the Jimmy Hoffa rumors to rest,
 and tells the world your priorities. Yes Giantsmania T-shirts are available
 again. Limit edition, frist come first serve...

 send mail to cntrol::Childs if interested...

|  <<< Note 89.272 by CNTROL::CHILDS "If Bush was a horse, you'd shoot em'" >>>
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If Handley was a horse, I'd shoot him too!!!!!

    	I just got off the phone with dINz and he wanted me to put in
    something for him...
    
    pHIL SiMMs!!!11

    Is that like a 4MB SIMM?

    Is he ever gonna cough up Doc's hat?

    	He gave the hat, butter stains and all, to his niece.  Doc will
    have to get it from her.
    
    				/Don

I forgot to post this:

A few weekends ago, Phil Simms became only the 13th quarterback in NFL 
history to throw for more than 30,000 yards.  A remarkable feat considering
he's never had an all-pro wideout to chuck to, and has played his whole
career on a team that does not emphasize the passing game.  No run and 
shoot, no huddle, pass every down inflated stats for him.  Just a mainly
30,000 yards.

JD

       Yeah, but how many Cy Youngs has he won!!
                                   Denny

    
    Simms still got to air it out in the modern age, though.  It's kind of 
    like with relief pitchers and the save records in baseball.  By the 
    year 2010, there's going to be a slew of 30,000 yard passers.  Admittedly, 
    not all will play for teams with as a conservative approach as the
    Giants, but even the Giants of the 1980s passed the ball more than
    almost any NFL (not AFL) team of the 1950s through 1970s.
    
    Simms has been a fine, consistent and overlooked QB...
    
    glenn
    

Plus, he spent a lot of his first couple of seasons injured too.


'Saw

    How's about dat Giants defense??????????????
    
    New course being offered by the Giants:
    
    Blowing big leads Made Easy
    Instructor:  Prof. Ray Handley
    
    
    Schnort Schitt Schleps
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Jake, don't blame po' Mr. Handley. This loss was truly a team effort by
    the Giants defense.
    
    The Crazy Met

Actually, the Defense was only partly responsible.  

The Giant Special teams SUCKED, giving up two TDs to the Eagles.

The KO TD return by Megget was nice -- the Giants first in 20 years.

On the whole though, this team is in deep trouble.  Randy Cross' 
assessment that the loser of the game would probably do an el-foldo
is right on the money.

Rust's defensive scheme does not belong in the NFC.  Too many of the 
big plays by the Eagles were caused by players (young players in some
cases) doing too much reading and forgetting to react.  

Offensively, I think it's been pretty well proven that Hostetler can't
throw worth a damn.  I do like what I'm seeing of McCaffrey though, and
Howard "Hands of Stone" Cross actually caught one yesterday too.

It's been said that Giants offensive line run blocks better than pass
blocks.  That's true, and it showed yesterday when the Giants had
to attempt over 40 passes to try and catch up.


My biggest nightmare is that at the end of the season, they decide to
stick with Handley and Rust, and purge the defensive players who don't
like Rust's system.

All I can hope for now is that they go 0-fer the rest of the way and
Handjob gets the boot.....



'Saw

    #%$#$% Cards end their blackout streak, depriving me of watching the
    Giants.  Can't tell if I'm happy or sad.  
    
    Any other Giants fan remember the last Giants player to return a KO for
    a TD (And I don't have to look it up, back then it was the only good
    thing to happen)?  Think he's driving a cab in Jamaica now.
    
    
    Brews

	Rocky Thompson, back in '72 - His second and last career highlight - 
A truly wasted #1 pick if there ever was one! LAsted from '71 into the '73 season
then dropped out of state. West Texas State - isn't that UTEP now?

	Jim M

    Could that be Rocky Thompson? 

    
    Sure was.  Heard he got busted for dealin ganja or stealin cars 
    in Jamaica.  What a waste (of a draft pick).

	RE.287

   West Texas State is in Canyon, up near Amarillo. UTEP is in El Paso of
course, hence the name Univ of Texas at El Paso formally 
Texas Western Univ. 1966 NCAA  Basketball champs.   

 Cadzilla 

    Have the Giants secured a playoff position yet????
    
    JaKe
    

>    Have the Giants secured a playoff position yet????
>    
>    JaKe


Hey, why the shot?  I haven't been bustin' on the Steelers over in their
note!


I don't think you'll find any Giants fans around who seriously entertained
a thought that we'd make the playoffs this season.

I know a large percentage of them were hoping for 4-12 so that Ray Handjob
would get canned.

I'd settle for 6-10, but 5-11 would give me a woody.


All the Giants secured was elimination on Sunday.....


You hurt my feelings, Jake!
'Saw    

    It was nuthin personal, 'Saw.
    
    Just a ??? I asked my brother in law, who nexted to the STEELERs, LOVES
    the Giants.  he lives about an hour south of Albany, and had to adopt a
    NY team when he moved there, and chose the Giants over the Jests.  
    
    Very Wise choice IMHO.
    
    JaKe
    

    Have the Giants ever won a Super Bowl?  Have the Steelers?  Oh, never
    mind... wrong response I guess...
    

    Where?  Catskill?
    

    Him and my sister live in a little one horse town called Accord, thier
    house being about 3 miles off of 209.  He is a chemistry perfesser at
    UCCC in Stone Ridge.
    
    JaKe
    

Jake -

I took a night school class at UCCC stone ridge.  Small world, huh...

JD

    Yep, JD, sure is.
    
    They been up ther about 11 years now.  When they first moved there,
    they lived right in Stone Ridge, but a few year ago, they bought a
    place in Accord.
    
   JaKe
    

    
    How bad are things with the Giants?  The Cards are favored for the 1st
    time thised year.

>    How bad are things with the Giants?  The Cards are favored for the 1st
>    time thised year.


I should have cut a few articles out of the Courant to post here.


All you folks who are worried about the future of DEC and the capabilities
of our management teams (and how some of us might think they are just
boobs) can take solace in this.

Nothing that I have seen at DEC comes even remotely close to the mismanagement
and boob-ism that's going on with the Giants these days.

Handley's recent quotes make all four years of Dan Quayle quotes look
like Einstein discussing his theory of relativity.


While I have been, and continue to be totally anti-Handley, I can't say that
it is all his fault.   You have to put a lot of blame on Rod "My
Defense Wears Tutus" Rust, and on the players themselves.

Handley is incapable of molding a group of players into a team. Throughout
his career he has never been the head man.  He has always been able to
concentrate on his little piece of the team, and let the Big Man worry
about motivating and molding them into a coherent Whole.   Put him in the
driver's seat and he self-destructs.


Handley had a hard job ahead of him when he took the reins.  In one sense,
if he had just done a decent job, the Giants would have been a lot higher
in the standings than the paltry 8-8 record of last year.   But he decided
he'd do everything his way (like he'd have any clue of what a head coach
does) and he created more dissension on the team, instead of bringing it
together.

He had made his job harder by being a jerk to the press, by mishandling the
QB situation, and by failing to even have a clue.


I wouldn't mind if the Giants lost their last three games, and finished
5-11.  If it means that Ray Handley is gone, along with Rust, then that'd
be just fine with me.


As a reporter in the Hartford Courant said "The season has been disappointing
for the Giants fans, but the upcoming off-season might prove very
interesting".......


'Saw

    re -1
    
    'saw, "nothing comes close to the mismanagement..." Hell, from the
    early 60's until the Young/Parcells era, mismanagement was a Giants
    tradition.  Have you forgotten?
    
    Brews

>    'saw, "nothing comes close to the mismanagement..." Hell, from the
>    early 60's until the Young/Parcells era, mismanagement was a Giants
>    tradition.  Have you forgotten?
    
No, I could never forget.  I know that.  George Young started to get
things turned around when he came in 1979.  Then they got Parcells.

We're definitely in transition again, no doubt......


'sAw

Brews -

As I mentioned in the Giants notesfile, the team let three of its best
assistant coaches walk to other jobs (Belechick, Ehrhardt and Coughlin) while
giving the team to Ray Handly - who was the worst pick  - well, Romeo Crennel
may have been worse.

They had the coaching talent under thier nose and let it go.   Could this be 
a repeat of when the Giants let assistants like Landry, Nolan and others
walk away....

JD

    
    Well, they have a chance to get Coughlin back, who may be the best of
    the bunch, as a head coach.  Ehrhardt is a good assitant, imo, but not
    a good head coach, and Belechick, a great DC, is still unproven as a
    head coach.  I'd like them to get someone in who will open up the
    offense.  They still play too conservative, and don't have the defense
    they used to be able to rely on.  If they opened up their offense, I
    think they'd surprise a few people.
    
    Brews

>    Well, they have a chance to get Coughlin back, who may be the best of
>    the bunch, as a head coach.  Ehrhardt is a good assitant, imo, but not
>    a good head coach, and Belechick, a great DC, is still unproven as a
>    head coach.  I'd like them to get someone in who will open up the
>    offense.  They still play too conservative, and don't have the defense
>    they used to be able to rely on.  If they opened up their offense, I
>    think they'd surprise a few people.
    
Well, to open up they offense they need better WRs.  I think McCaffrey
is good, either down the sideline or over the middle.  I like him over
the middle, but they need more than that.


I had heard Coughlin wasn't interested in leaving BC, but I hope that's
wrong.


Ray Must Go!


'Saw

>I had heard Coughlin wasn't interested in leaving BC, but I hope that's
>wrong.

    Sounds like typical talk during tthe season, we'll see what he says in
    Jan-Feb.

    Ron Erhardt is just what the doctor ordered, as far as the STEELERS are
    concerned.
    
    JaKe
    

Maybe Dan Reeves will be available.

Jerry

    Say what you will about Reeves and his collies, but there are a lot of
    struggling teams that would love to have him as their coach.

>                           -< How about them Cards! >-

Evidently not too many Phoenix fans felt the same way, since the Stadium
was 4/5 empty....8^)


I loved the Giants fans there who were chanting Ray Must Go....


'Saw
    

    I think the Cards are one of the best young teams in the league.  At
    their current rate of improvement, they should be a lock on a wildcard
    spot next year.
    
    Mike

But will anybody come watch them?


Metz

    Sounds like JoJ_*.  This was the jesters year to if I remember
    correctly;^)
    
      The cards just don't seem to get it together against teams they
    should and do against team that should beat em.
    
      JMO
    
     Tim

    I don't root for the Cards at all, but it's easy to see that they are
    improving and may be good enough next year for a wildcard.

    I keep hearing about Bidwell wanting to fire Bugel and hire Reeves from
    Denver.  FYI.
    
    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn

    I think Bugel has done a fairly decent job.  The only questionable
    thing I think he's done isn't entirely his fault (i.e., the mind games 
    the whole organization played with Johnny Johnson after sitting out). 
    If they used Johnson when he was available, they would've won a few
    more games, including the 7-3 loss in Philly.
    
    Reeves is proven, but I don't feel that Bugel is that bad.  The Cards
    have an excellent defense.  Their offense is average, and their
    offensive line is below average.  If they fill the holes there like
    they did on the defense, they'll be very competitive.
    
    Mike

I have to agree with Mike.   Pheonix is an improving team.  I don't know
about a wild card next season, but I do see them out of the cellar....
(especially if Handley and Rust are still with the Giants...)

'Saw

    Thanks Saw!

No, I was serious.  They looked pretty good.

The thing I liked was that the Cards d-coord will modify his defense
to fit the talent available, unlike the boob the Giants have for a 
d-coord....


'Saw

    
     The Cards are an up and comming team...  So are the Packers who 
    just might make the playoffs this year.  Hey,  how much does it
    cost (tickets) to go to a cards game?
    
    BG

    Re: -1
    
    About the same as the Suns.

    Rumor has it Ray is gone after the season..
    

>                        -< parade down 'Saw's street! >-


Someone, I don't know who (whether it was sports or giants) sent me a
picture of Ray, autographed as follows:

	'Saw, I heard you were a big fan of mine.  Thanks and keep
	up the faith,
			Ray


I'll tell you, I was overjoyed to get that.  It made me chuckle quite
a bit.


Whoever sent it, thanks....




Ray and the entire cast of boobs have to go....


I'm gonna be woodyward on Sunday, hearing the chants in the stadium....


'Saw
    

    Giants distroyed KC.

    The Giants FIRED Ray "Handjob" handley today.
    
    JaKe
    

NEW HEBRON, CT (UPEYE) -

Police in this small town nested to the West of Hartford received numerous phone
calls tonight about strange noises and disturbances near the town's Park and 
Golf Course.   Residents reported seeing a naked man and a wolf dancing around
a large fire chanting RAYGONERAYGONERAYGONE.   

Police reported that by the time they found the area, there was no fire, only
the remains of a charred pumpkin, that had, according to a policeman "looked
like it had been disguised using a large Mr. Potato-haid kit - had glasses and
what looked like earphones on it."   A charred red,white, and blue sweater, 
reportedly with a New York (football) Giants logo on it, and 'TRBC' stitched
on the side sleeves was also found.

Police also reported finding a naked New Hebron man, covered with Cheez-Wiz 
at the site.   The man's name is being pending further investigation.



JD

      re-1  No wonder 'Saw took vacation;^)

    
>>at the site.   The man's name is being pending further investigation.
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    What, the guy may or may not HAVE a name????
    
    JaKe
    

Some thoughts on the Ray Handley firing.


Personally, I thought George Young handled this very poorly.  

All season long I have been on Ray Handley's case -- BIG time.  However,
I think that no one should be subjected to what he was subjected to
by Young.

Young should have fired Handley the day after the last game.  Every one
knew that it was going to happen, everyone hear Mike Francesa's report,
and yet Young jerked the guy around.  That pissed me off.


Now, I'm glad Handley is gone.  Big talk is that Parcells should come
back, but you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that 
Young wouldn't ask Parcells if Parcells were the last football coach
in the world.

Francesa said that there wouldn't be any repercussions about not
asking Parcells, but that if the Giants asked someone else, and Parcells
hooked up with another team, and if a couple of years down the line
Parcells team was doing well, and the Giants are still wallowing,
it would look really bad for Young.


Be interesting to see what happens......


'Saw

    You can have Reeves, Frank...  The Donks will take Bill anytime.
    Except that Bowlen has his head to far up his a$$ to figure out
    that he don't need a yes man to be successful.  Dan Reeves with
    an open check book could do wonders with the Midgets !!
    
    BG

>    You can have Reeves, Frank...  The Donks will take Bill anytime.
>    Except that Bowlen has his head to far up his a$$ to figure out
>    that he don't need a yes man to be successful.  Dan Reeves with
>    an open check book could do wonders with the Midgets !!
    
Nah, I don't want Reeves....8^)

Although, believe it or not there are folks calling into WFAN who are
advocating that Tom Landry get the job.  Landry is like 70, I don't
think he wants to coach 8^)   But, those same folks might like to hear
about Reeves, since he's a Landry disciple.


I'd bet that George Young follows his "tradition" and picks a coach who
has never had any NFL head coaching experience, and that pretty much
gives the nod to Wannstadt or Coughlin.   

I don't think George will ask Parcells back, and I'm not sure that Bill
would want to come back.   As Basher said, Parcells may well feel
"Been there, done that"......


Might be a big mistake not to try to get Parcells back though......


'Saw

    
>>Nah, I don't want Reeves....8^)
    
    I think the man fer the job in New Yuck is J_e Walt_n.  Whaddya think,
    'Saw???
    
    JaKe
    

>    I think the man fer the job in New Yuck is J_e Walt_n.  Whaddya think,
>    'Saw???
    
He used to play with the Giants, but he won't be their coach.

I seriously think that Young will hold to his pattern of hiring someone
without previous head coaching experience in the NFL.


'Saw    

    Worked for Dallas...  Jimmy Johnson and his Org (and I stress his org)
    have done a great job with the Sowboys...  I hear Ditka is available
    as of a few hours ago !!!!  I got it,  Dan and Mike as Co-Coaches.
    
    BG

>    Worked for Dallas...  Jimmy Johnson and his Org (and I stress his org)
>    have done a great job with the Sowboys...  I hear Ditka is available
>    as of a few hours ago !!!!  I got it,  Dan and Mike as Co-Coaches.
    
Well, it has worked for George Young one of three times.

He hired Perkins, who got them to the Playoffs in 1981.

Parcells got them to the Playoffs in 1984, 1985, 1986, 1989, 1990
with two Super Bowls.

Handley failed to make the playoffs.


So, perhaps it will work for him again....


'Saw