Conference 7.286::sports_91

Has anyone seen that ad for SI where they're giving away the Ali
tape?

I laugh my a__ off everytime they play that ad.  I love the part
where Ali (then Clay) had beaten Liston.  The dialog goes like
this:

		Clay:		I'm pretty
		Annoucer:       You're not that pretty
		Clay:		I'm a *BAD* man!
		
		Clay: 		I shook up the world, I shook up 
				the world!

Too funny!

'Saw

    RIddick Bowe (does a mean Ali imitation) will fight on ABC his next two
    fights.  March 2 against Tyrell Biggs (weren't they on the same Olympic
    boxing team?), and April 20 against an unnamed opponent.
    
    There's something coming up on Pay Per View (now calling itself
    Request) called Night of the Heavyweights.  Looks like mostly meatballs
    and ham-and-eggers, including one guy who bills himself as The Italian
    Stallion.
    
    Dan

    Strangest article in the sports page today.  A former WBO world champ
    whose name escapes me was shot by his estranged wife as he returned 
    his two year old child to her from a custody visit.  He was shot to
    death, she called the police, and admitted to shooting him.  The cops
    declined to arrest her and stated that they would make a decision on
    whether she'd be charged with any crime in the next day or so.
    
    MrT

    re: last
    
    Marcellus Allen "internationally ranked" light heavyweight who fought
    for the title last year, shot by his 27-year old estranged girlfriend
    after argument.
    
    Dan

Man, did anyone catch the preliminary bout last night on ESPN?

There was two guys on there in what had to be the most BORING fight
I've ever seen.

There was this guy Roy Purity and this really FAT guy  John Sargent.
Purity used to play football, and threw all of 112 punches in 6 rounds.
Sargent looked like he needed a bra, and looked so lousy that he made
the guy who took home videos of himself on his Nordic Trak look like
Arnold.   This guy's tits were so big I'm surprised the censors didn't
censor it!

These two guys went at it for 6 rounds.  Sargent kept hitting the body,
and working inside, and Purity kept covering up.  The people were booing
the bout was so bad...

Did anyone else see this?  Or was it some sort of 'shrooms induced
nightmare?????  8^)

'Saw

Hey Slasher, long time no note ;^)

I agree.  I mean, I've never seen a poorer physical speciman in the
ring.  I mean, you'd expect it in WWF (ie Dusty Rhodes, the Earthquake)
but not in boxing.  This guy makes Foreman look like Adonis!

'Saw

 >  but not in boxing.  This guy makes Foreman look like Adonis!
 > 'Saw
    
     Frank,
        Since you mentioned the WWF, I hope you didn't mean
     Adrian Adonis :^>
    
    Bull~
    

No, Bull, I was thinking of the Greek God.

If you ever have a chance to see this guy, don't pass it up.  Slasher
is right when he says this guy needs a Maidenform....

'Saw

               
    Anybody see this paunchy, middle-aged fighter from Mexico with a record
    of 1-2 (now how many 35-year-old professional fighters have only had
    three fights) get knocked out a couple of weeks ago on ESPN?  The guy
    barely got to mid-ring after the opening bell and he was knocked silly
    with a left on the first punch; fight over.  They gave the official 
    time of the fight as 0:30, but no way it went more than 15 seconds.  
    The commentators were joking that the clock must have been running 
    during the introductions.
    
    The whole scene would have been damn funny if it were in a movie or
    something and not "real".  It's a shame that ESPN can't do any better
    in filling their regular slate of weekly fights, but I guess that's the 
    sad state of boxing in this day and age.
    
    glenn
     

>    Anybody see this paunchy, middle-aged fighter from Mexico with a record
>    of 1-2

I saw it too... It was hilarious if you take it in the context of what a 
sham the boxing business is, a travesty if you are a fan of the sport.
It looked like they pulled some dishwasher from a local Mexican restaurant
and gave him $20 and a pair of trunks so he could help pad his opponent's
record.

Perhaps they could line him up with either of the two stiffs they
had last night.  I'd probably put him up against that Purity fellow,
though, it'd make a more interesting fight!

'saw

       One of the guys in the 'Night of the Heavyweights' PPV farce Dan
    referred to is the guy who fought in the latest Rocky (MCMXXV?) flick.
                                                  Denny

    
    >   One of the guys in the 'Night of the Heavyweights' PPV farce Dan
    > referred to is the guy who fought in the latest Rocky (MCMXXV?) flick.
    
    Morrison is his name, and from what I read he isn't a complete stiff,
    at the very least...
    
    glenn
    

    
    >    Morrison is his name, and from what I read he isn't a complete stiff,
    
    Jim Morrison??  He certainly *is* a complete stiff by now.  More likely
    he's de-composing.
    
    
    Dickstah
    

    
       Quit pickin' on brother Jim (even if the worms and maggots are)!
    Besides, I think it was Van, not Jim. Sing like a hummingbird, float
    like a tree :^>
    
    Bull~
    

From what I understand, the guy who fought in Rocky V is
"Duke" Morrison(?), and is the nephew of the late John Wayne.

I don't know what he's like as a fighter, but he don't wear
no Maidenform(tm)....

'Saw

    Well Camacho has finally agreed to fight Chavez.  It is scheduled for
    Apr 15th.  Cant wait until the little cocky bastard losses.  But as
    much as I hate him, he is one of the best.
    
    Greg

    	Hector "The not so Macho Man" Camacho can win the fight if he
    prances around the ring for 12 rounds.  But if he stands and fights
    with Chavez, he's a goner.  Look for Hector to take the "Sugar Ray
    Sissy" approach making for one long boring match.
    
    				/Don

    
    Can you imagine a fight bixtween, Sugar Ray Rip Off and Hector the
    Fag Camacho? There would probably be about 6 totol punches each bxer
    landing one apiece! 
    
    
    
    Steve

    	You would be tempted to call it dancing Digger, but they probably
    wouldn't even get close enough to call it that!  It would be boxing's
    version of playing the air guitar, air boxing...
    
    				/Don

    
    HA HA!! Air Boxing!! I'm roolin.
    
    
    
    Steve

It'd be a marathon....26.2 mile in 12 rounds....

/Don, better trademark that sucker....

'Saw

    
    Sharing a birthday with little Soup today is the ninth child of Mr. &
    Mrs. George Forman.
    
    The fifth boy born into the family will be named George V, as his
    brothers are all named George also.
    
    Doesn't Pete Rose also have this same kind of ego infliction?
    
    Dickstah
    

    	Terry Norris is going to turn that little sissy (Sugar Rim)
    every which way but loose Saturday night.  Is this slaughter going
    to be on PPV?
    
    				/Don

    Showtime

 Given that they've only sold a 1/4 of the seats me thinks Rim will have
 an accident before the fight to delay it....

 mike

What time is it on? I just might have to watch the rim-head get his 
clock cleaned.

anybody want me to tape it for them?


metz

     It's on at 10:00. We all know Rim(tm) don't take fights he caint win.
                                       Denny

    The Rim got pounded in a 12 round unanimous decision, losing to Terry
    Norris.  Norris put him on his can twice during the fight.  I only
    counted one round (8th I think) that the rim won, and even that was
    marginal.  
    
    					Steve

	A very cruel and unsportsmanlike gesture by Rim after losing a
unanimous decision to Norris.  He declared Norris the "next Sugar Rim" 
after grabbing the microphone from the ring announcer.  Now I know that
old Sweet and Low was dissapointed after the loss but branding a young and 
talented fighter a "sissy" (i.e. "next Sugar Rim") is below even his 
standards.   Rim also retired (for the 5th time) after the embarassing 
loss.

				/Don

Damn!

The Rim(tm) has gots to learn to get a bigger ring as he gets older.

Bigger ring, mo' runnin' room, no hits from the opponent...


Did anyone get to see the Fruit of the Loom Boxers lasted night?
I missed it....

'Saw

    re .34 The Froot O' the Loom Boxers are a riot! They had the manerisms
    down exactly right... The Banana (Ali) was slurring his words just like 
    the man himself, and Sugar Rim (Apple) had all those pauses just the
    way he really talks, as if he's reading off of a card. The best was
    Mike Tyson as a bunch of grapes. He was asked why grapes, and said
    "Cause I been stomped all over by a woman".
    
    One of the best ILC episodes was with the Love Connection, where Mike
    Tyson meets Robin on the show. The white guy was playing the host of 
    the show, and also was good with his "back in 2 minutes, 2 seconds"
    biz.
    
    Tom

    Yeah, Sugar was an apple because he was such a "polished" fighter.
    Hilarious after hearing about what happened.
    
    I liked when the guy asked what they were made of and they said the
    Don King models were 10% cotton, 90% commission....
    
    -Walt

	I just read a very interesting and informative article in the 
Eagle's Eye section of today's National about round-card girls.  I didn't 
know they were so versatile or the demamds of the job so challenging.  Must 
reading for boxing fans.

				/Don

    
    Slasher, how 'bout you saving us all a half a rock by telling the
    curious in noteland about it?
    
    Who are these round girls, and what kind of cards do they like to play?
    
    Dickstah Shufflehands
    

Does this have something to do with strip poker?

Did you ever have these women that when they lose a hand, and they're
supposed to take off an article of clothing, pull out a little scissors
and snip off a button?

I HATE when that happens!

Mike JN

    IBF flyweight champ (and local hero) Michael Carbajal up his record to 
    19-0 in Lost Wages(tm) last night with a 2nd round knockout.  He has 13 
    KO's in his 19 bout career.  The Carbajal family was celebrating with 
    menudo last night!
    
    Look for Carbajal to add more initials (i.e., WBA, WBF) to his belt
    soon.

    Carbajal isn't arrogant though.  He's very down to earth.

    Highlight of my weekend was watching Hector "Macho" Camacho take his
    arrogance a little too far Saturday night, get docked a point because
    of it, and lose the championship to Greg Haugan on a split decision.
    
    If you were watching the war or Ben Hur, you missed a close fight. 
    Camacho had it won in my opinion.  At the start of the 12th and final
    round, the ref wanted the two fighters to touch gloves.  Camacho put
    his out.  Haugan refused.  After waiting a couple seconds, Camacho just
    started punching.  The ref penalized him one point and that cost him
    the fight.
    
    I thought the penalty was pretty bogus, but it couldn't have happened
    any better.  I hate show offs and Camacho is as bad as they come.  I
    love that his attitude cost him the championship and a few million in
    the upcoming fights that are now scrubbed.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    I guess this one really rips the mask off of Camacho for good.  I
    thought Haugen was dead after Vinnie Pazienza, another near-stiff, 
    finally knocked the crap out of him in their third go-round.  Now
    Haugen comes back from nowhere and beats Camacho (even if it was
    close)?  I'd hate to see what Julio Chavez would do to Camacho, 
    which was supposed to be Macho's big payday coming up...
    
    glenn
    

I heard a guy on the radio talking about this diaper thing Camacho was
wearing.  He said if you won you could wear something like that but
if you lost you looked stoooopid.

What was he wearing?????

'Saw

    
    'Saw,
    
    	Remember the latest "Tarzan" tv show?  It looks kinda like
    	what Tarzan wore on that show.  I don't see how he wears
    	the typically cumbersome *nad protector* underneath it.
    
    Claybroon

    Yeah, it was a Tarzan getup, but it was camouflage with military
    insignia all over it.  He was also wearing camouflage boots.
    
    	--dan'l

    	To bad, I would've loved to see Chavez rip Hector's face to
    shreds.  8^(

Well, tonight it's Tyson vs Ruddock.

Who do you like?  Do you like those ads they've been showing?

Will Tyson survive?

Anybody gonna buy this fight?????

'Saw

      Tyson will knock him out. Early.
    
      They are probably getting little interest in the pay-per-view.
    Why else have those "Why would Mike Tyson want to get in the ring
    with Razor Ruddick" spots. Gimme a break. So Ruddick knocked out
    Michael Dokes. The result of the fight was as obvious as what would
    have been the result of /Don vs Cigarette Man :^>
    
    Bull~
    

    	This could be a good fight fellows.  The Brownesville Bully
    a.k.a. Mike Tyson could go down.  Regardless this will be a better
    fight than the Plump Preacher Gorge Foreman vs Evander "Slow Hands"
    Holyfield in the "Real Deal"/"Big Meal" fiasco next month.
    
    				/Don

    
    I don't like either fight.  I'm holding out for any combination out of 
    Holyfield/Tyson/Riddick Bowe.  The rest of 'em, including Foreman,
    fergit it...
    
    glenn
    

    Well, here in Charlotte you can pay $25 at Baby Dolls (the Paper Doll's
    sister), see the fight, and some "entertainment" including one of last
    year's Penthouse Pets o da Month.
    
    But since Pepper ain't gonna be there, I'll be sitting home grading
    papers.
    
    Later.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    >                   -< Baby Dolls: Food, Fight, and Females >-
    
    >    But since Pepper ain't gonna be there, I'll be sitting home grading
    
    I heard that Pepper is nothing to sneeze at.
    
    And did somebody say "food fight?"  Alright!  Spread out! Nyuk, nyuk,
    nyuk.
    
    BTW, I managed to tape *four* new Curly's this weekend to add to the
    collection.  The "You Nazty Spy" is loaded with puns.
    
    Dickstah
    

    Tyson in two, reason is becuase Ruddock says he's gonna brawl with
    Tyson, Mike better get him out early because the longer you go, the
    more of chance you have in getting hit and this guy can punch with
    both left and right. I'm looking forward  to the under card, Chavez
    is fighting someone, with a record of 36-1. And the best fight on 
    the card probably is Simon Brown and Maurice Blocker, IBF and WBC
    champs. They're friends, and have been since they were kids. They've
    never thought about fighting each other, but both say theres no
    way of avoiding it. Each said there will be no rematch and that they
    will still be friends after the fight. 
    
                                                 Dan

    
    My Dad's getting the fight, I'll post a report en La manana.
    I don't know too much about Ruddock except that the man is a 
    mountain. The bigger they are? Should be a dandy heavy weight 
    fight.
    
    
    
    Steve

Saw the Carbojal Vs Vasguez fight yesterday:

Pretty good fight... although not pretty. Vasquez just kept his head
down and kept coming. The decision went to Carbohal, so he retained his
title. I watched the whole thing, and if it had been my vote, Vasguez
would be the new champ.

Re: Tyson Vs Ruddock

I thought the ads were pretty good from the point of view of doing
their job and creating interest in the fight.

Ruddock has about ten pounds on Tyson, and they both look to be in good
shape; but putting the hype aside, I think Tyson should just waste him.
I think the Buster Douglas fiasco taught young Michael a lesson. I'd be
pretty surprised if the fight went three rounds, and I wouldn't be too
surprised if Ruddock went down for the count in one or two.

Mike JN

My favorite part of the Tyson-Ruddock ads, is that in one set the
voice is that of Dennis Farina, the guy who used to be in Crime Story.

One of my favorite actors (and was a real life cop for 18 years,.....)

'Saw

    Tyson in 5.... not buying it though...

    Tyson in a VERY controversial "stoppage" at 2:27 of the 7th round.
    Tyson knocked down Ruddock in the 2nd (according to Bert Sugar and
    others on WFAN, it looked a lot more like a slip), had a more legit
    knock down in the 3rd. Ruddock came on strong in the next few rounds,
    and was tagging Tyson with his right. The 6th was his best round.
    Apparantly, Tyson made Razor stumble with a mild rush/flurry and Steele 
    jumped in to stop the fight with Ruddock looking 100%.  And from what I
    heard Razor had hurt Tyson more at least three different times, with no
    intervention by Steele ....
    
    The quick end stunned not only Ruddock, but Tyson as well ! After that, 
    both camps broke out into a full scale brawl in the ring that took 
    security men to stop.
    
    FYI, Richard Steele was the ref who gagged. 
    
    Remember Chavez-Taylor ? Guess who the ref was ?
    
    This was much worse ... and some think that Don King's long arm was
    involved in that Steele comes off as a company man, hand-picked by
    King (who promotes Chavez as well) ....
    
    Another black eye for the World Wrestling- uh Professional Boxing ...

    ...not only the Chavez fight, but Steele is also Sugar Rim's favorite
    REF. He's the one who warned the Rimmer 30+ times to 'quit holding'
    during the Hagler 'fight'.
       I 'listened' to the fight (scrambled picture) on PPV. Duran again
    distinguished himself by quitting during his fight (bad shoulder this
    time). 
       Simon Brown and Chavez also won.
                                                 Denny

    
    Terrible call by Steele. Ruddock was hurt but he should've gave
    him the benefit of the doubt. Methinks that Tyson would've finished
    him off. Ruddock has potential, if he could learn to use a straight
    right jab he could've held Tyson off better. Tyson said after the
    fight that Ruddock hits "like a kicking mule!", but he went on to
    say that he never was hurt and he rused to be hurt. I've seen Tyson
    fight alot better. He was charging too much, and Ruddock made him
    pay with his vicious left. I scored it Tyson by rounds, with Razor
    getting the edge in the first and sixth. Again not a good call by 
    Steele.
    
    
    
    Steve

	Ruddock stunned Tyson a couple of times, but it's straining it to 
say he hurt Tyson.  Razor's jab was of the quiche eater variety and Tyson 
walked right through it.  The fight shouldn't have been stopped but Ruddock 
would've had to been real lucky to knock Tyson out.  Duran looked like the 
Pillsbury Doughboy and supposedly hurt his shoulder but the guy he was 
fighting was a major stiff.  Duplessis (sp?) ran around the ring and 
anytime Chavez landed a punch he ran even more.  The kid has a definite 
future if they ever outlaw punching in boxing.  Blocker/Brown was a helluva 
fight.  Blocker couldn't hurt Brown, but everytime you thought Brown was 
going to get him, Blocker would punch out of it, until the round Brown 
finally tagged him.

	       			/Don

    Ruddock's camp was complaining about Steele the week before the fight,
    but was generally dismissed by the boxing community which (at least
    until now) has respected Steele as a top-notch referee.
    
    For what it's worth, I thought Steele made the right call in the
    Chavez-Taylor fight (you don't change the rules based on the time left
    in the fight), but this one sounds ridiculous.  According to Ruddock,
    Tyson himself wanted the fight to continue, probably because he wanted
    the clean knockout instead of the technical variety.
    
    glenn
    

I did not see the fight.

However, my opinion is this.  Boxing was never VERY clean, but
I can't remember a time of more controversy in boxing that in
recent (say the last 10 or so) years.

What is going on with this sport.  Used to be (when Ali was fighting)
I'd NEVER miss a fight.  Now I could care less.....


'Saw

 While I agree with the rest that Tyson probably would have finished him off
 he/we deserved the chance to see that. Steele made a hasty judgement 
 unfortunately. The brawl after the call was the best part. Tyson already
 said last night he'd give him a rematch. Ruddock's big enough but needs
 more polish. Definately too much clinching last night for me. Great shot
 in the sixth round after Razor tags him a few times and Mike's cleanning
 out the cobwebs, he points to his own chin saying come on hit me and
 Ruddock does just that with I think a straight overhand right to the
 head.

 Too bad cause if Tyson didn't finish him there it probably would have
 been a war to the finish...

 the second round was a trip Doc, Ruddock cross himself up with his own 
 footwork back peddling after an attack and fell...


 mike 

    Once again Richard Steele over-shadows the fight itself, the ref is
    suppose to go unoticed, but he's always in the lime light. He shouldn't
    have stopped the fight, Tyson hit him four times unanswered and if not
    for the ropes Ruddock would have gone down, but he would of gotten back
    up, not if Steele had let gone about 20 seconds more (if that) Tyson
    would have knocked him out, his hands were down and Mike sensed it.
    I had it the same way the judges did, Tyson winning rounds 1 thru 5
    and Razor winning the sixth round. With Tyson leading in the seventh.
    Tyson basically dominated the fight, rounds three thru five Razor
    wasn't fighting just hanging on, Tyson was really teeing off on the
    body. One thing about Razor he sure can take  a punch, Mike hit him
    with some solid shots to the jaw and the head. One thing with Mike
    he can also take a punch, Razor was hitting with some solid flurrys
    but the difference was when Tyson was scoring Razor was backing up
    and when Razor was scoring Tyson stayed right in his face. I don't
    think Razor would have been able to score a knockout because his legs
    were gone after three rounds, so not having his legs took some of the
    steam off of his punches. Now there gonna protest and sue everybody
    in sight and it wil end up in court. Razor should just let it go,
    because this man will be around for awhile, he can punch and he can
    take a punch, these two I think could beat both Formand and Holyfield,
    Razor will be Tysons first defense when he gets the belt back. Tyson
    after the fight said he hits like f_____g mule kicks, it was funny,
    then he realized the camera was there. It was funny.
    
                                                            Dan

All told, the funniest part was the commericals.  I LOVED the Tyson
commercial.

Here's this big hulking heavyweight guy, who could put me through the
wall no doubt, all sweaty, and mean looking...

Then, this squeaky little high voice comes out of that guy...tooo funny....

'Saw

Hawk --

It was something about wanting more lithium....

No, seriously, it was this diatribe about Ruddock and how tough he
was, and how people were saying "Mike, why are you fighting him....."


;^)

    Carbajal had his toughest fight as a pro on Sunday in Las Vegas.  He
    won a unanimous decision though to retain his IBF title and up his
    record to 20-0.
    
    Mike

Re: ecstatic

Tyson does have a little squeaky voice (something Robin did to him?) and
he also has another problem. he would say: `I'th ecthatic!"

And thatth the troof!

Tyson also said if Forman winsthe Forman vs Holyfield fight, they'll
schedule a fight with Forman and Tyson, but if Holyfield won Tyson
wouldn't fight him because holyfield wouldn't give Tyson a fight. To me
this sounds stupid. If Holyfield was the champ, and Tyson refused to
fight, Tyson would only be hurting himself.

Mike JN

    	'Saw, the only reason there was less controversy in the old
    days was because organized crime owned every fighter, every referee
    and every promoter.  You either played it their way or wore a cement
    overcoat.  The fights were good, but as much as possible the element
    of surprise was eliminated.
    
    
    				/Don

    
    
    	Once again, boxing is getting closer to the WWF.  As others have
    said, the fight shouldn't of been stopped.  I saw the fight and I'll
    give Razor credit.  He took some real shots but hung in there.  The
    4-5 unanswered blows that caused the stoppage hurt him, but Razor never
    hit the canvas.  In fact, he fell back against the ropes but seemed in
    control.  What bothered me was that after Tyson connected and set
    Razor into the ropes, Steele turned to Tyson and said the fights over.
    He never even looked to see if Razor was totally out.  When Steele
    called the fight, another camera angle showed Razor saying, "WHAT!"
    It was at that point when the brawl started.  Given the fact that
    Razor had already weathered Tysons best earlier, the fight shouldn't
    of been stopped because Tyson landed a couple of good shots.
    
    	Other observations:  Tyson hit repeatedly after the bell and was
    warned a number of times.  Tyson also had quite a few low blows and
    again was warned by nothing more.  Also, Tyson said it all at the end
    when he admitted that Razor had hurt him twice during the fight and
    that Razor hit really hard.
    
    	Instead of watching these fiasco's, I'll stick to the WWF where I
    know what's going to happen.
    
    								bill..g.
    

    Professional Wrestling is the only major sport that's never had a
    gambling scandal.  Think about it.
    
    John

    Has Hockey ever had a gambling scandal?  Or do you only consider it a
    "major" sport if the "Bubbas & BillyBobs" down south watch it? I don't 
    remember anything, butI s'pose it's possible. Besides, I wouldn't consider 
    the WWF to be "wrestling" and I certainly wouldn't consider it sport.
    
    Tom

    
    	The turning point in the fight was in the 2cd when Tyson
    	was doing his "Rocky breaking side of beef ribs" impression
    	on Razor.  It took all of the steam out of his legs.  Razor
    	didn't move well after that and he was often throwing punches
    	off the wrong foot.
    
    	Although Razor won the 6th round, the good shots he landed on
    	Tyson didn't shake him.  Tyson may have had his eyes opened a
    	little but he walked through the majority of the punches.
    
    	The only thing that we didn't get to see as a result of the
    	fight being stopped was Razor landing in the cheap seats.
    	Tyson would have done some serious damage with Razor hurt
    	and his arms down at his sides.
    
    	I think you'll see a rematch if Tyson can win the champeenship
    	back..................AFTER HE FIGHTS DOUGLAS!
    
    Claybroon

    The fight should not have been stopped !  Ruddock seemed to know that
    the ropes were right behind him and he appeard to be spinning back from
    the Tyson punches when Steele stepped in ...... my guess was that Razor
    was going to bounce off the ropes and cover up .... the round was about
    20 seconds from being over.
    
    Dirty fight ...... low blows .... hitting after the bell.
    
    Richard Steele ...... now he works full-time as a blackjack pit boss
    at the Mirage.  Who owns the Mirage ?  Steve Wynn.   Where was this
    fight staged ?  The Mirage.  Who has signed a contract for several more
    Tyson fights to be held at the Mirage ?  Steve Wynn.  Conflict of
    interest ?   Definitely.  Solution ?  Steele can't ref. any fight
    held at the Mirage.
    
    
    Greg

    re .78 and .79
    
    Yeah, and most pro wrestling doesn't cost a dime to watch.
    
    People who paid $34.95 for last night's fight have to be p*ssed !
    
    Luckily, my friend taped it (he got it for free), and I'll watch it
    soon ....
    
    Question : Has Richard Steele ever had the guts to take a point away
    from a fighter ? Sugar Rim holds Hagler the way I hold a girl during a
    slow dance, and nothing happens. Tyson hits after the bell and nothing
    happens ... what gives ?
    
    Oh yeah, FWIW, I supported Steele after the Taylor-Chavez fight -
    Taylor was rocked bigtime, and there isn't a visible clock in boxing.
    Moreover, I blame Lou (Can you say *SERIOUSLY* ugly) "The Fool" Duva
    for his 12th round "strategy" ....
    
    Duva is the Guy Lewis of boxing.

WWF and other such pro-wrasslin, is NOT sport.  The courts have ruled it
is SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT, and thus it is not subject to some fee or other
that real sports are.

Hockey probably isn't considered a major sport because of monetary terms.
Hockey also does not have a major network contract, whereas football,
baseball and hoops do.  That's probably the thinking behind Ninja's
logic.

Wrasslin is kind of fun to watch because I find it funny, predictable,
and quite often a lot of those moves they make, although pre-choreographed,
ARE athletic.....

I'd much rather watch WWF than last night's fiasco...

JMVHO,
'Saw

    Steele might have done Ruddock a BIG favor by calling the fight the way
    he did. If Razor goes on to get his clock cleaned (as it appears that
    it might have been), Ruddock has a long road to come back to get into
    the title picture. However, now with a controversial loss, he would
    appear to be the next in line for a title shot, after Tyson. Richard
    Steele may have saved that big payday for Ruddock.
    
    Dennis
    
    Also, I thought it was awfully strange that Steele thought that the
    fight was a 10 rounder. rather than the 12 it was scheduled for. I wish
    the fight could have gone into the 11th to see the look on Steele's
    face.

       Why was the fight a 12 rounder anyway? Was it a battle for the Don
    King heavyweight champeenship or what? 
    
                                                Denny

    The fight NEVER should have been called!
    
    Remember da "thrilla in Manilla"??
    
    Kev
    

    I don't know where you are, Doc, but my cable company had the last
    Wrestlemania on pay-per-view (you won't catch me paying for that
    stuff).
    
    Are boxing referees getting quick to pull the trigger and end a fight
    these days?  Would you have wanted to be the ref when that Korean
    fighter went down for ever a few years back?

    In my view, before Steele stopped the fight, Tyson only caught flush
    once, with a left hook while Razor was backpedaling.  Razor's footwork
    throughout was pathetic, unless he was loading up the left, and the
    same problem led to his slip/knockdown in the second.  I think
    (believing in the goodness of Steele) that he saw Tyson firing away,
    and Razor backing up, his legs looking wobbly, saw what *looked* like
    shots hitting him in the head and Razor defenseless.  In his mind,
    Steele did the right thing.
    
    But I also think he was completely mistaken.  Most of Tyson's shots
    missed, glanced or just didn't have anything due to Razor going
    backwards.  He looked awkward, but once Razor got his legs under him
    and Tyson off of him, I'd give him at least a 50% chance of continuing
    the fight like nothing happened.
    
    AND I wanted to see the fight keep going.  I wanted to see who tired
    out, if Tyson would punch himself out or get sloppy and get caught by
    one of them "fucking mule kicks".  It had a real intrigue.
    
    All in all, I thought it was a great and entertaining heavyweight
    fight, with an obvious major flaw.  I'd like to see the rematch ASAP.
    
    Dan
    
    

    I've gotta disagree that this was a "great" fight.  Interesting?
    Yes.  Controversial?  Yes.  Great?  Hardly.
    
    Round 1 was a good round.  Rounds 2-5 were an ugly ballet, with
    each fighter missing 90% of his punches.  Round 6 was exciting in
    the final minute.  Round 7 was the controversy.
    
    I too was surprised that Tyson didn't have a point deducted for
    blatantly hitting well after the bell the SECOND time.  The first
    time he was warned, the second time a point must be deducted.  That's
    the only way to stop that kind of stuff - make the offending fighter
    pay for his misdeeds.  Steele has turned into a wimp in the ring, IMO.
    
    NAZZ

    
    >    Also, I thought it was awfully strange that Steele thought that the
    >fight was a 10 rounder. rather than the 12 it was scheduled for
    
    Ya know, for something this important, you'd think the guy would have
    known.  Reminds me of a few years ago when some olympians were
    disqualified because they overslept or something like that.  Imagine
    training so hard for so long and then being told, "Sorry, chap, but the
    trials were this morning."
    
    Can you just see the pit crew yelling at Dale Ernhart, "Dale! Get outta
    the pit, get back in the car!  This is a *five* hundred mile race, not
    a *three*!!!
    
    Dickstah
    
    

    Steele also said he looked Ruddock in the eyes when he was against
    the ropes, when the replay shows he never ONCE checked on his
    condition before calling the fight.
    
    NAZZ

	While it's true that Tyson did "land" four punches on Ruddock two 
of them were his forearm hitting Ruddock's neck.  Regardless of why Steele 
messed up he shouldn't work any fights that King/Wynn are involved in since 
the apprearance of impropriety exists.  I agree with Nazz that this wasn't 
a great fight but was exciting, kind of like the Foreman/Lyle fight in the 
mid seventies.

				/Don

    Nazz, don't be so hard on Steele ... maybe he got clipped accidently by
    a Tyson or Ruddock hook ?
    
    That can make a man imagine that he saw a lot of things ..... :-)

    
    
    	USA Today put it best when they summed up this latest effort by
    Tyson.  In a nutshell, Tyson aurora of invincibility is crumbling.
    This doesn't mean Tyson is a bad fighter, it simply means that this
    is not the same Tyson we knew before Douglas.  Razor was able to take
    almost everything Tyson had, and if Razor had moved a little better,
    his reach advantage would of spelled doom for Tyson.  
    
    	I was also surprised to see Razor on TV looking real fresh.  No
    sunglasses or anything.  Like the paper said, did he look like a guy
    who's life flashed before him some 8 hours earlier?  There wasn't even
    a mark on his face.
    
    	This whole fiasco is typical of boxing.  I'm not saying the fight
    was fixed, but everyone knows that the money is behind Tyson.  If 
    Razor would of one, it would of upset the golden calf bigtime.  But
    I have a feeling that Razor's day will come, and when it does, I just
    hope Tyson isn't around.  Next time, I think Razor will slice and dice
    him.
    
    								bill..g.
    

    
    Forget Razor... if Riddick Bowe can move like they say, he'll slice 
    Tyson up.  Tyson's not big on defense, and he doesn't have the size or
    the reach to take on a larger, moving target...
    
    glenn
    

    I haven't seen Bowe fight in over a year, but if he hasn't improved by
    leaps and bounds, he's second round fodder for Tyson when Mike's out
    for the kill.  Tyson started the Rudduck fight as he starts almost all
    his fights - charging in with the left hook looking for the chin.  What
    he found in Rudduck was that he wasn't going to get the quick TKO on
    the big man and that he'd better respect Rudduck's punching power.  You
    could see that Mike spent the rest of the fight inside, and most of it
    being uncharacteristically cautious.
    
    I've gotta see Bowe go up against something other than hamburger before
    I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
    
    Dan

    I realize this isn't a boxing issue but did you guys hear those two
    Bro's destroy the national anthem.  where's Rosanne Barr when you need
    her.
    
    AL

    
    How about Don"where's the sciccors"King, waving the two little
    american flags as if he was conducting during the anthem. That
    cheezy smile on his face, I just wanted to puke.
    
    
    
    Steve

    
    	Glancing blows?  Forearms to the neck on the final flurry?
    	I musta watched a different fight than you guys.  I've
    	got it taped.  I'll watch it again and put on my Ruddock
    	glasses ;^)
    
    	Claybroon

>    How about Don"where's the sciccors"King, waving the two little
>    american flags as if he was conducting during the anthem. That
>    cheezy smile on his face, I just wanted to puke.
 

	Even worse was the introduction he got.  Great Humanatarian?? Come on.

	
	Like Dan I think Razor had a shot at winning this had it gone on. Maybe 
not a great or good shot but a shot none the less.  He had weathered quite a bit
till then.  He could have got up after a knockdown and held on for a few more 
rounds and maybe catch Tyson with one of those '$#@!$&^ mule kicks'.

	What I find questionable is why Steele was even refing the fight.  
You'd think if there was objections from one of the fighters they would just
take no chances and get a ref agreable to both parties.  Save all the 
speculation and controverie that is going on now. 

	At times I was wondering if I was watching the same fight as the 
announcers.  They sounded like Tyson cheerleaders.  If you were listening
and didn't see the fight you would have thought Ruddick was out on his feet 
from the second round on.  He certainly wasn't as fresh as when he got in the 
ring, and he was not fighting a 'good' fight, but he was not the wobbly ready 
to go down with the first jab to the face that they made it sound like.  


	Both fighters threw some bombs in the first round that if landed would
have knocked the other into the 10th row.  

	Why does Tyson resort to all the cheap stuff?  The hitting during the
breaks, head buts, elbows, htting after the bell.  He realy should have had
a point taken away after being warned for hitting after the bell and maybe 
another for continuing to hit during the breaks.  

mc
	

    
    What was it that they called King when he was being introduced?
    It was something along the lines of "The real american" or something
    sickening like that. 
    
    King was counting to himself everytime he waved those mini-flags..
    
    1 million (wave), 2 million (wave)..etc..ect..ad nausea..
    
    
    Steve

Well, I'm not supposed to talk about what went on during rugby tour,
but I can kind of make an exception in this case.

We stayed at the British Colonial Hotel.  Well, the first afternoon
we were waiting for our luggage to arrive in the lobby and were
all sitting around when this black fellow walks through, stops, 
looks at all of us, and turns and walked away.

He was about 55 or so, with hair standing straight up on his haid,
just like Don King.  He was skinny, but had this pot belly that
looked like he was about 8 months pregnant.  Even his face looked
like Don King.

Well, nobody said anything.  About 5 minutes later he did the
same thing.  This time, when he walked away, a voice from the
back part of the lobby (hint not me but another prop) says
very quietly

		When Don King goes bad....

For the rest of the trip, everytime we saw the guy we'd bust a gut
laughing...

All this talk of Don King reminded me of that....


'Saw

    	I don't know why you guys are knocking Don King.  He's a great
    promoter, great businessman and a true thespian.  I think you're
    all just jealous.
    
    				/Don

    I'm with Dan on this one.  The premature TKO notwithstanding, I felt
    this was a great fight and anxiously await a rematch.
    
    Although Steele blew it, anyone who thinks Rudddock would have lasted
    more than another round was watching a different fight than I was. I
    scored Ruddock taking the 1st and the 6th, but he was having his lunch
    served to him in the 3rd, 5th and 2.22 into the 7th.
    
    BTW, I'll bet my paycheck that Foreman beats Holyfield.
    
    Mark.

>    BTW, I'll bet my paycheck that Foreman beats Holyfield.
    
>    Mark.

	Homey, there is this guy I used to know named P.T. Barnum
	that would've loved to meet you!  :^)

	Claybroon

    	Don King's electrocution skills are truely beyond repair.
    His magnanimosity and generosity was again confirmed when he 
    generalously donated ducats to returning American servicemen. He
    is indubitably a "Real American" in the true "Hulk Hogan" mold.
    
    
    				/Don 

    
    /Don, how much did King pay you?
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    	Digger, I am above approach!  I cannot be had for financial
    gratittuities!!  I am blubbergasted by all this insinuation of 
    innaproprietaries!
    
    				/Don

    
    Been hittin' the old thesaurus eh /Don, just like your idol
    and mentor Don"Cornelius has nothing on me"King. 
    
    
    
    Steve

    Well it sounds like Tyson has finally gone off the deep end or come out
    of the closet :-)  Here are some of the bizzare quotes from his press
    conference with Razor Rudduck.
    
    "I'll make you my girlfriend", Tyson told Ruddock
    
    "You're sweet.  I can't wait for you to kiss me with those big lips of
    yours." he told Ruddock.
    
    Ruddock than said he was surprised at Tyson and Tyson shot back...
    
    "How dare you talk to me like that! You should get up and kneel to me
    right now and I'll spare you."
    
    Reprinted from the National....
                            

                                                  
    > Well it sounds like Tyson has finally gone off the deep end or come out
    > of the closet :-)  Here are some of the bizzare quotes from his press
    > conference with Razor Rudduck.
    
    Yeah, I saw the whole thing on SportsCenter yesterday.   Tyson's
    parting shot was something close to (insert lisp): "Well, Razor, 
    you're a transvestite and I know you like me..."
    
    The entire video conference was obviously contrived and both
    participants seemed pressed to come up with decent one-liners (an Ali
    or a Foreman neither is), but Tyson proved himself once again to be
    quite the bizarre individual and left Ruddock more than a bit
    stupefied.
    
    glenn
     

    It must be kinda hard to hold a bar of soap with boxing gloves on,
    right ? :-)

 Certainly would explain why he was atracted to Robin "Flat" Takens(TM)

 ;^)

    
    re .110
       Foreman did in a way win-morally. Even Holyfield was surprised to
    see Foreman still standing up even he gave some good shots &
    combinations to Foreman. Holyfield also got his share of good hits 
    from Foreman but the bottom line was Holyfield still retained his 
    being a undisputed heavyweight champion of the world.
    
    Now how would the heavyweight fight go right now? Would Holyfield be
    fighting Iron Mike or would Tyson take care of his business first
    with Ruddock on their rematch? Any speculations or comments about
    these guys? Do you think Holmes would make a succesful comeback
    like Foreman did or would he be like Mark Spitz going down on
    defeat on his comeback. Boy, would I really like to see another fight
    like the Fioreman-Holyfield fight!!
    
    -bob

    Anyone besides me see the Hearns/Hill bout?  Hearns fought one of his
    most brilliant fights against Hill, and as a result took the WBC Light
    Heavyweight belt via a unanimous decision.  
    
    Hearns has always been a favorite of mine.  Never a loud mouth like
    Rim, Ali or Tyson, but possessing one of the most vicious right hands
    in any weight class.  Hearns clearly prepared well for this fight and
    was in top condition.  For a fighter whom "experts" claim is on his
    downslide, this fight proved that Tommy has a few left in him.
    
    BTW, Hill was undefeated prior to this bout.
    
    Mark.

    Ali was on the Today show this morning.  Honestly, friends, I almost
    broke into tears.  His speech is practically inaudible and he required
    Bryant Gumble to translate what he mutterred.  Parkinsons (sp?) has
    made him a shaking shell of a man.
    
    I was never a big Muhamed Ali fan, but to see one of the greatest
    boxers...no, one of the greatest athletes of our time reduced to this
    condition is truely heartbreaking.  It's impossible, no matter what
    your opinion of him, not to be touched and sympathetic to what he must
    be going through.
    
    	--dan'l

 True enough, Dan'l.   And I was a big Muhammed Ali fan.  Still am.  
 He stood up to the establishment and became one of the world's most
 recognized and most beloved men.
 
 Role models are hard to come by.  He's been on my list for a long
 time now.   And Parkinson's is slowly taking him away from us.   A
 damn shame.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Dan'l - I read an article this morning about Ali. Referenced the Today
    show taping. Said how embarrased he was while he viewed the tape.
    Something always bothered me about Ali....how he was snubbed by Sports
    Illustrated as Atlete of a Decade in favor of Jack Nicklaus. Not to
    diminish Nicklaus' skills but I feel Ali did more for boxing and
    exhibited a heck of a lot more athletic talent than anyhting Nicklaus
    did for golf.
    
    Mark - I read about the fight and am glad Hearns won. He played second
    fiddle for so long behind the Rim, Hagler and Duran. I'm sure he's past
    his prime but it's nice to see a classy guy get rewarded for hard work.
    
    Rich
    

    I'm probably in the minorityu, but I dont' thinkg MAli deserves
    anything from Boxing or SI or anyone.  ALi made boxing into a real
    3-ring circus.  He spawned the likes of Sugar Ray and that crap - Don
    King, etc...
    
    I'm totally convinced that Ali's career was fully manipulated and that
    the fix was in on most of his fights - from the Liston 'invisible'
    punch to the choreographed lose the title/win the title crap with the
    likes of Leon Spinks. 
    
    I'll never have an ounce of respect for him, nor praise any of his
    professional accomplishments.  I'll respect him for his amateur career,
    culminated by his Olympic Gold.
    
    JD

    
    	I like Hearns too.........but he wouldn't be considered to
    	be beneath the other 3 if he didn't have such a glass jaw.
    
    	Claybone

                                                     
    I find it ironic that Tommy Hearns, aka "The Hit Man", the man
    portrayed by boxing's central casting as a resident of its darker,
    meaner side, eventually turned out to be its number one good guy.
    Duran, Hagler, and especially the pretty-boy Leonard, pilferer of the
    infamous "draw" fight with Hearns, all ended up shamed both in and
    outside the ring by the end.  The no-BS Hearns just keeps on rolling,
    and serves as one of its classier elder statesmen...
    
    glenn
    

While it is sad to see Ali deteriorating, I agree with JD to an extent.
I never liked Ali's mouthy style and the "I am the greatest" humbleness(sic)
he portrayed. IMHO he stole alot of fights because he was such a media 
draw in a sport that was weakining at the time of his baptism into the 
professional ranks. Norton was jobbed as was Shavers. Maybe SI spurned
him because of Ali spurning the Vietnam draft? He was definitely black balled 
because of it. He was a great boxer but certainly not "the greatest" as 
he has told the world over and over and over....



Steve

    That business about Ali's blood poisoning was one of boxing's sorriest
    efforts in the public relations department.  Secret experimental
    treatments in Mexico, total blood transfusions, new drugs, the whole bit, 
    all the while Ali being led around like a puppy...
    
    glenn
    

    Yeah, JD...I really believe the FIX was in when Ali fought Joe Frazier
    3 times. 
    
    We have a heavyweight champion who actually fought more than once a
    year. He opened his mouth because that was the only way he could get a
    crack at Liston before he got old and gray. The whole thing was hype.
    
    And people got excited about boxing again. Everyone had a shot at him.
    He made people forget the dull, boring Johansson, Patterson and Liston.
    People paid to see Clay get beat. Then he outraged white America by
    adopting Islam and changing his name. Floyd refused to call him by his
    new name and Ali punished him. Ali brought emotion into the game.
    
    A line of guys lined up for him. Ernie Terrel, Zora Foley, Cleveland
    Williams, Henry Cooper, Karl Mildenberger. Ali whupped 'em all.
    
    He was then robbed of his prime years. Never the same again....pride
    and instinct taking over for the raw, conditioned boxer of years
    before. He tackled Jimmy Young, survived Ken Norton, Ernie Shavers and
    the like. Yet, over the hill as he was, his most masterful fight had to
    be against Foreman. Young George had the power and the age but, at that
    point, lacked the heart. Ali allowed his kidneys to be brutalized and,
    in so doing, wore George out.
    
    Nobody could stick and jab like Ali. The only heaveyweight that I have
    seen that came close was Larry Holmes. He could avoid punches, control
    a fight, do what he wanted. 
    
    When Ali lost to Holmes I felt like I was watching an old Willie Mays
    flailing away at pitches. Ity was sad.
    
    But Ali did not know when to quit. His need for the spotlight put him
    in the ring with a wrestler. He got hurt. He fought longer than he
    should have. He loved the glamor and the fight game. Finally the fans
    came to watch him win. When he beat Leon Spinks he was amazing. 
    
    Sorry, JD, I can't agree with a word you said about Ali.
    
    Rich
    

    Rich,
    
    WWe stand at opposite ends of the spectrum.  The circus that boxing is
    with Don King and the lot sprang from the loins of Ali - with help from
    his entourage and that miserable cur, Howard Cosell.
    
    You can wax poetic about him, but I'll see a guy who was beat a number
    of times only to be saved by the boy in Las Vegas.  A guy who brought
    the four corners offense to boxing with the Rope-a-dope.  
    
    A classless competitor who belitted opponents.  He would have been
    perfect for the WWF.  Sort of like the Million Dollar Man.
    
    I enjoyed the HOlmes fight.  ALi was hoping the fix was in once again -
    but even his crooked friends couldn't help him out of that jam.
    
    JD

    > I enjoyed the HOlmes fight.
    
    If this much is true, then you truely are a sick man, JD.  No matter 
    who you liked in the fight, there was nothing enjoyable about it...
    
    One other point-- all in all SI did not "screw" Ali.  That magazine had
    him on the cover more than any other single personality in their
    history.  It also provided him with a outlet of exposure when he was 
    banished from the sport and society.  Compared with most other sports
    publications of the time, SI was a fairly progressive force...
    
    glenn
    

 I liked him for lots of reasons ... not the least of which was the
 way he thumbed his nose so eloquently at the establishment ...
 
 I mean here's a kid from Louisville who was born with a name, Cassius
 Clay, handed down to him directly from the days of Negro slavery.
 
 So he changes it to Muhammed Ali and there were actually people and
 organizations like Sports Illustrated back then who flatly refused to
 call him by that name.   Ali wondered out loud why people like
 Archibald Leach could become celebrated as Cary Grant or why Norma
 Jean Baker could be worshipped as Marilyn Monroe but he had to take a
 lot of white abuse for wanting to be called something that meant a
 lot to him.
 
 And then when he refused induction into military service, he claimed
 it was because he had absolutely no argument with the people of
 Vietnam.   They had never spat on him, turned a fire hose on him,
 made him go to the bathroom in a separate facility, called him a
 nigger, or refused to serve him dinner.  Yet these same people who
 did these things to him then wanted him to risk his life against some
 unknown people halfway across the world.  To me, that was a *PERFECT*
 argument.
 
 By the way, one of the first persons who accepted and then used Ali's
 new name was none other than Howard Cosell.   Cosell has a lot of
 faults but he deserves recognition for seeing what Ali was trying to
 do back then and through their years together.   It's no coincidence
 that Ali's exit from the boxing scene precipitated Cosell's exit just
 a few short years later.
 
 I admire people who stand up like that.  I'm sorry if it's an
 idealist's reality-denying weakness but I like it.   It moves me.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Glenn,
    
    Why did I enjoy it?  Ali had no reason to be in the ring.  It was sad -
    very sad.  But it was a case of him getting his own medicine.  Years of
    having the fixers on his side, of taunting, when he knew he wouldnt' 
    be allowed to lose, all caught up with him.   It forced him to finally
    realize the sham was over.  To really retire.  To forget about boxing.
    If he had had a decent showing vs. Holmes, he would have been coerced
    into fighting again.  His ego would have got in his way - and perhaps
    he would have suffered serious injury, perhaps death, by fighting
    again.  Larry Holmes did Ali, and everyone else a favor.  He destroyed
    the myth that was ALi.  Put him to rest.
    
    I don't revel in Ali's health problems.  I wish him the best.  The man
    was a pawn who started to believe his own classless drivel.  He started
    to believe all the crap he spouted.  He destroyed himself.  
    
    JD

    Bob,
    
    Ali's whole war stance was nothing more than a choreographed
    media/publicity ploy, that backfired on him.  Nothing more.  Nothing
    Ali did was for anything other than the advancement of Ali.  
    
    And Howard Cosell was the worst 'sports journalist' to ever walk the
    face of the earth.  He was extremely biased, arrogant and a waste of
    skin.
    
    JD

    
    And what about the thousands of other black men and women that 
    were reared from the throngs of slavery and racial prejiduce
    that went and fought and died for thier country? Of course thier
    names did not carry the weight of the great Ali. Bogus is what it 
    is.
    
    
    Steve

    JD, do you have *any* proof for any of your allegations?
    
    Dan

    Yeah, and if those thousands of black people who fought decided to buck
    the system, they would have ended up in jail - Ali's exposure allowed
    him not to serve time behind bars, no more.
    
    JD, do you REALLY think the fix was in for Ali's fights? Early in his
    career he destroyed opponents. Later on, after he beat Frazier in the
    2nd fight, he was crowned champ. The old rule was that the challenger
    had to dominate a fight and really "take" the crown from the champ. I
    don't think Norton or Shavers did. I agree that, if I was a judge, I
    would have crowned Norton the champ. But I wasn't.
    
    I also wasn't a judge when Marvelous Marvin Hagler failed to wrest the
    crown from Vito Antofuermo. Did you see that fight. Hagler and Norton
    looked like twins - dominating the fights. Yet Vito and Ali retained
    their crowns since the old rule was that a champ had to get really
    beaten up to lose the crown.
    
    Had the old mind set been in place when Rim Man fought Hagler, Marvin
    might still have been fighting today - who knows.
    
    I guess you prefer the mumbling types who talk like Bob Nelson's Jiffy
    Jeff character, huh? You sit back and admire the humility and "respect"
    for the fight gang that rules the game. Well, Ali may not have been
    educated and came from just as humble beginnings. But the man had
    emotion. It burned within him. He bucked the system from the very
    start. So Don King capitalized on him? So what? Why shouldn't a black
    man have some control over a game that uses up black fighters and spits
    them out after sapping them of their minds and souls?
    
    King is a bozo. The powers who ran the sport before Ali were sleeze
    balls, too. It's a dirty game. But, to me, Ali brought a breath of
    fresh air to the sport....
    
    Cossel? I really don't like the guy but, thanks to him, Ali became the
    most recognized black man in America. Is that a bad thing? Did Ali beat
    his wife or take drugs or drive drunk or cause other outrageous
    incidents like so many speots figures have? Did he bet on fights? So he
    had a big mouth. So does Tommy Lasorda. 
    
    Rich
     

 There are obviously a wide range of opinions and feelings on the man. 
 I stated what I liked about him.   Others have stated what they
 didn't like.  Pretty simple stuff, actually.
 
 I believed in him, that's all.   If it turns out that Ali really was
 just an expert in choreographed media manipulation then color me
 fooled by him and his huge entourage.   That's okay ... it's happened
 to me before and it'll happen again, I'm sure.
 
 No big deal.   Ali is mostly in the past now anyways and there's not
 a damn thing any of us can do to change what already has happened.  
 I think he certainly made the world a more interesting place.   I
 would hope that even his detractors would grant him that distinction.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Although I cain't say that some of Ali's fights were fixed, I cain say
    that he won many decisions in the twilight of his career that he clearly 
    lost.
    
    Mark.

Ali was probably the only reason boxing didn't die out as a sport during
the 60s, but instead rose FAR above its rightful station.  And his stance
on the war and the name change brought a certain 'reality-check' into the
world of sports that wanted to ignore Viret Nam and the 'real' world...

Cosell is/was/ever-wil-be a loudmouth L@wyer (can I say that word in Notes?),
but at least he got people to consider sports with the perspective of "little 
boys' games", and to consider the context of it all...

- Steve

 No one here can prove the fixes but the publicity stunts are easily proved.
 Just read his autobiography "Float like a Butterfly" written by Jose Torres.

 Ali himself said he patterned his act after Gorgeous George of wrestling
 fame. He wanted to be hated by the public cause it sold tickets. 

 At the time it seemed pretty coincidental that his stance on the War 
 and change to the Islamic faith happened around his draft age but hey 
 I don't know if he truly believed or not. Even if it was an attemp to
 avoid the War can't say I blame him I'd have tried something simular.
 
 I didn't like him never will fixes or no fixes I can't deny he had talent
 and a heart as big as his mouth....

 Who is Howard Cosell?  ;^)

 mike

    re Bob and Rich
    
    Cheers ad mucho applause.
    
    For me, Ali was a hero. For the other guys in the heighboorhood, he was
    The Hero. Yeah, we loved OJ, and Aaron, and Winfield .. but Ali was THE
    MAN. THE GREATEST. He went way the hell beyond boxing.
    
    Hawk, The man lost three years of his life from boxing. That's a lot of
    money. There was doubt that he would ever fight again. And all of that
    because he would not be inducted.
    
    Remember, he was teh heavyweight champ - there was little likelyhood
    that he would have been on the front lines (although some racists would
    have loved for that to have happened). He'd been fighting exhibitions,
    been on the USO tour, stuff like that.
    
    White America had seldom seen a man like this, and they didn't know how
    to handle him. After all, black athletes were usually humble and
    'grateful' for the chance to make thousands while others made millions.
    Ali saw no need to kiss anyone's tail, nor did he have to be a 2-D
    figure.
    
    In 1967, that was some radical s--- .... :-) Even today it is. How many
    athletes will speak out on an issue outside of the sports arena ? How
    many will voice a opinion that isn't 'correct' ?
    
    Not Ali.
    
    And we cheered him for it. Then and now.
    
    [Aside : Ali changed his name a year before he fought Liston, but kept
    it quiet, becaus ehe knew that he'd probably never get a shot for the
    title. when he won, there was no need to keep it secret. But it still
    freaked people out. 
    
    The WBC stripped Ali as a result (leading to this alphabet soup B.S. of 
    today).  
    
    And people who had no problem calling Arnold Raymond Cream Jersey Joe 
    Walcott, or calling Walker Smith Sugar Ray Robinson - they now developed 
    lockjaw calling Clay Ali. ]
    
    Every time Ali said, "I am The Greatest !" - trust me - just about
    every young black kid did too. Including a 10 year-old Dr Midnight and
    his buddies.
    
    When Ali shocked Foreman, I remember hearing the result on the radio,
    and I remember how an entire neighboorhood went crazy.
    
    Because "The People's Champ" was back.
    
    Ali was no saint, he tormented Frazier needlessly, he cheated on a good
    wife, maybe he didn't deserve a close decision. 
    
    That still doesn't change what he did as a fighter, and what he did for
    America in general, and for many black people in particular.
    
    Steve, do you what a lot of those black vets in Vietnam said when Ali
    defied the induction board ?
    
    They cheered. Believe it when I tell you, because I've seen them cheer
    - even today. They loved him for his stand. He represented the millions who
    had fought and died for "democracy", and promptly got shafted when they
    got home.
    
    Now ALi has Parkinson's *Syndrome* - his mind is still quick - he can
    think and reason, read, whatever .... but getting the message from the
    brain to the mouth is getting more difficult. His motor reflexes are
    diminishing. 
    
    And it hurts to watch. I don't like to watch him now, because I
    remember him as a kid. When he was Superman.
    
    And now age is the Kryptonite .... damn. :-(
    
    DrM

    By the way, there is an biography on Ali that is out on hardback. I've
    read it at bookstalls (yeah, I've been know to do it), and read some
    excerpts. It is a great book - unbiased in that the author talks to
    everyone, and much of the book is in interview format with ALi,
    Frazier, Patterson, Terrell, his wives, Dundee, Cosell (who will say in
    a heartbeat - "Ali made me ...."), and many more.
    
    I'd recommend it.

    	I would love to see Ali in his prime against some of what JD
    thinks are the greatest fighters of all time.  If it could be done
    I would bet Ali.  And Doc there was one other black athlete who
    spoke out against racial injustice.  He was the *only* black athlete
    to participate in the Alabama voter registration marches.
    
    Bill Russell.  8^)

RE: .149

The book Doc mentioned was partially reprinted in 5 parts in the National a few 
weeks ago.  Facinating reading, especially for someone who is only old enough 
to remember the tail end of his career.  Some great pics as well.

Scott

Doc, I'm sure they cheered, right up until they got a bullet through the 
head. Speaking out is one thing, backing out is entirely different. I 
don't want to get into any morals or ethics discussion, but I have a hard time
believing that All the blacks in 'Nam lauded Ali for juking the draft.
Just MY opinion.


Steve

    
    Since when did opposing the war and backing out of the draft become a
    black-white thing?
    
    As Doc said, though, Ali had nothing but cushy exhibitions and USO
    celeb shows ahead of him if he'd gone in.  He still refused.  At least
    you've got to admit he had true conviction behind his principles...
    
    glenn
    

    The Ali Jihad, I love it....
    
    JD

    Slash ... I know about Russell's role, and I've always respected him
    for it (Jim Brown and others as well) ... and of course I think he wa a
    great player - even if he was a Celtic.
    
    
    
    It's just that he couldn't carry Wilt's jock with a forklift ...
    
    :-)

    re .148
    
    Great note, Doc....we may disagree on some things but that note of
    yours was from the heart and I'm afraid John "Label everyone who
    Disagrees with me the .....Jihad" Devlin cannot grasp the implications
    you alluded to.
    
    And Dan asked a simple question....proof from JD to back up the
    accusations of fix. I don't think we'll see anything other than
    references to Liston's taking a dive in Lewiston. What we WON'T here
    from JD is the fact that Ali fought 2 rounds of the first fight with blurred
    vision thanks to linement from Liston's gloves. 
    
    I think Liston didn't like the prospect of getting nailed with the most
    devastating right jab in heavyweight history. Yes, that's right. Ali
    surely lacked the powerful rights of a Louis, Foreman, Shavers, Dempsey
    or even Marciano. But his jab was the most punishing ever in the
    heavyweith ranks.
    
    I don't know how old you are JD, but I remember Patterson being a
    damned good fighter. So was Henry Cooper. What Ali did with his jab
    hasn't been matched by another heavyweight since.
    
    Now, since this is the boxing topic, any comments on Mark Gastineau's
    12 second KO of some stiff?
    
    Rich
    

    Mark Gastineau won his first professional fight with a KO in the first
    round.  

    Rich -
    
    First off, I ignore everything Dan asks.  He's never come to the
    forefront with any of his sources, citing everything as fact- so why
    should I. Convenient of you to be on Dan's side in this one.
    
    Boxing, as many, including /Don, has been less than 'perfect'
    throughout its history.  Ali  was a show.  An event.  He was a perfect
    marketing tool.  He was loud, but could talk good - no Joe Frazier or
    George Forman mumbles.  He was American.  He was twisted and twirled
    like a baton.  ANd he delivered for his entourage, for the networks,
    for the Vegas bookies.  And he was left out like  yesterday's wash when
    he was finished.  He was left out to be a mere bufoon - to get wailed
    on and to sink into relative oblivian.  They deserted him as fast as
    they could - not even his network could prop him up for one last
    'title' to win in a scripted way (like Spinks).  
    
    Yeah, he had great talent.  He was self-proclaimed the greatest.  They
    played him off perfectly - hero to the blacks - evil to the whites. 
    They paraded a bunch of stiff "Great White Dopes" in front of him -
    pissing off the whites everytime he beat one up, and giving the blacks
    a false sense that perhaps through Ali, things would be better in
    'whiteys' world.
    
    Didn't work, did it?  Where' ALi now?  Reffing Wrestemania somewhere?
    A spokesman for his people?  Or a washed up shell of a used and
    discarded showman?  He's like a comedian waiting for a revival of
    Vaudeville.  It's over, Ali. Nothing to cling to but false hopes and
    long lost titles.  
    
    Didnt' realize tath Ali couldn't be criticized, Rich...
    
    JD

    From what I saw of the Gastineau fight, it looked to me like his
    opponent took a major league dive. JMO
    

	Let's have a Micky Rourke vs. Mark Gastineau PPV extravaganza!
Gastineau has the advantage due to his many barroom scuffles, but Micky 
wins almost all his movie fights so we'll rate this one a tossup.  The 
winner can take on Roberto Duran since he's only a uno mas Pillsbury croissant
from being a heavyweight.  And if Sean Penn ain't doing anything we could 
have him and Canseco square off in a "Truth or Dare" staredown match (no 
punches just a lot of macho bravado) on the undercard.

				/Don_King

    JD, You are perfectly within your rights as a 'Murican to find fault
    with Ali. I found issue with your penchant to label a majority support
    group in this notefile for an individual or team a Jihad.
    
    Obviously you think Ali was used. I believe he was the one who used
    others. He used the fight game to speak to the world. He used Howard
    Cosell to be heard. He used his brash temperment to get a title shot
    before boxing's establishment was ready to give it to him.
    
    He used his stature to launch a black man, Don King, into the ranks of
    the Tsars of boxing, a level previously held only by whites. Sure it
    spawned Butch Lewis and that jerk of a promoter for Razor Ruddick. I
    don't see the problem. 
    
    You allide to the parde of white stiffs. Well, I recall Karl
    Mildenberger who gave Ali the toughest fight he had until his title was
    tripped. I recall a top rated fighter named Henry Cooper who Ali
    demolished in 5 rounds. I remember Brian London who was nearly
    decapitated. Then came the 3 years out of the ring. I'm racking my
    brain here but the only white guy I recall him fighting was Chuck
    Wepner. No worse than Duance Bobbick's title shot.
    
    The point is, JD, Ali fought every contender in the top 10 before he
    had his title stripped. London, Cooper and Mildenberger were all
    ranked. So was Wepner, for that matter.
    
    I remember the first time I saw Ali fight. It was at the Four Seasons
    Arena in Walpole - Big Screen. Oscar Bonavena was the live prelim. Ali
    was fighting Ernie peek-a-boo Terrel. I recall the nearly all white
    crowd screaming for Ernie to "knock that nigger's head off". Ernie was
    a good black while Ali was a black who didn't know his place.
    
    I admit to growing up in white suberbia and I admit to being confused
    at the reaction Ali elicited in many whites. What the Doc wrote in .148
    trancends boxing, to me, and puts Ali's role in persperctive.
    Notwithstanding his tremendous boxing talent, he was at the vanguard of
    the new black awareness that was shaking the country in the 60's.
    
    Rich
    

    Hawk, I believe Rourke won a decision on a 4-rounder with a Florida
    mechanic.  I saw some of the highlights, and Rourke literally threw the
    guy over the ropes and out of the ring.  Reminded me of the Valiant
    Brothers.
    
    When asked if he'd fought dirty, Rourke replied, "bet your ass I did."
    
    Mark.
    

    I think we need to see a tag team boxing match with Gastineau/Too Tall
    Jones vs. Rourke/Penn!

RE: .161

>> Let's have a Micky Rourke vs. Mark Gastineau PPV extravaganza! Gastineau 
>> has the advantage due to his many barroom scuffles, but Micky 
>> wins almost all his movie fights so we'll rate this one a tossup.  The 
>> winner can take on Roberto Duran since he's only a uno mas Pillsbury croissant
>> from being a heavyweight.  And if Sean Penn ain't doing anything we could 
>> have him and Canseco square off in a "Truth or Dare" staredown match (no 
>> punches just a lot of macho bravado) on the undercard.

I'd LOVE to see ole Mick go down for the count, and wipe that smarmy smirk
off his face... Ditto Sean (tho I think he'd out-stare Jose on points!)

... and for the hockey-fans, there's always Neely-vs-Byers, et al...

RE: Ali

What a SAD case!  The man WAS a showman, but he was also an ATHLETE!  He
developed a style of movement and color (NPI) in the ring that managed to
make a hitherto who's-got-the-biggest-fist bloodsport into something that
was almost worth watching!!  And now with Parkinson's (brought on by too 
many punches?  Or just his Fate??) taking away the articulate, quick-witted
entertainer he was, it's a damn shame...!

I also don't buy the arguments that his opponents 'tanked' -- he just out-
thunk and outmaneuvered 'em, mostly...

- Steve

    	...and I was thinking of pitting Duran against Foreman in a
    BloodSausage duel.  I was thinking of holding the fight in Tampa
    Bay and calling it "The Battle of the Bays by the Bay".  David Bey
    could be a guest referee.
    
    				/Don_King

                                   
    I think that this "black radicalism" routine that JD is now attributing
    to Ali is largely an after-the-fact creation employed in an attempt to
    discredit the man's boxing talent, a completely separate issue where
    Ali's accomplishments stand on their own.  I for one did not perceive
    Ali as being a dangerous man, always looking to pit black versus white,
    as suggested.  He was a black man who talked a lot, which certainly was
    unusual in the early sixties but which was certainly his right, but I 
    never got the impression that he was calling for rioting and rebellion 
    in the streets as others were.  
    
    On the contrary, Ali's Moslim faith was (and still is from a moving
    retrospective I read last week) very real, and he was more an advocate
    for peace, not just in this country but around the world, than for
    hatred and violence.  As I understand it, it was Ali's faith and not
    political considerations which primarily motivated his refusal to be
    inducted into the military during Vietnam, and apparently the Supreme
    Court agreed when it struck his conviction for draft evasion on
    fundamental religious grounds.  That's not to say that Ali never 
    entered the political forum on the issue of race, but insofar as he 
    did was he wrong, considering the events and state of the times?  I 
    think not...
    
    Another aspect of Ali that was metioned repeatedly in the piece I read 
    was (and is) his sincere love and charitable support of children, a 
    feeling that was returned in kind wherever he went during his boxing
    career.  Has any athlete ever been as well known and idolized all over
    the world, especially with children, as Ali was?  Could all of this
    have been a by-product of some grand, cynical strategy to divide and
    conquer the world along racial lines?  No, I think it was real and
    could not have been contrived, even by a master showman like Ali.
    
    glenn
    

    >First off, I ignore everything Dan asks.  He's never come to the
    >forefront with any of his sources, citing everything as fact- so why
    >should I. Convenient of you to be on Dan's side in this one.
    
    Gee, JD, was this necessary?  Name ONE course that I've been asked
    about and haven't come to the forefront on.  Just one.  Can you, or is
    this something that the world should assume, like Ali's fixes, 
    " 'cause JD said it happened"?
    
    Dan

    Glenn -
    
    You totally missed the boat (again, I might add). I *NEVER* ever, ever
    said Ali was out fomenting rioting.  Never.  So you got that totally
    wrong.  In fact, I said ALI was USED - and that the black vs. white
    thing was used in promoting him.  Living in the inner city, in a
    racially mixed, volitile neighborhood, I saw it.  
    
    I've said he had boxing talent.  You don't win an Olympic gold without
    it glenn.  I don't think Boxing is a sport on the 'up and up'.  I do
    feel his career was orchestrated - especially the later stages - when
    seeing no one else around with his charisma and mouth, they kept
    propping him up as the champeen, no matter how obvious the deteriotion
    of this skills, or the worse his fighting.  The man spawned Don King -
    oh boy, that's a plus.  Sugar Rim (TM) had little Ali written all over
    him - the hype and the results (see Hagler, Marvin).
    
    glenn, whatever I did to you I have no idea, but to paraphrase you:
    
    "You've missed again, Glenn"
    
    
    ta-ta
    
    JD

<<  FLAME ALERT >>

JD, do you also believe that the Rockefellers and the CFR control the world?

Or that the Bavarian Illuminati have held the strings since the 18th Century?

Or that Kennedy was shot by the CIA  (Wait a minute, THAT one I'm not so...)

... It IS possible, is it not, for a person to act with sincere intentions,
only to have his/her actions misrepresented and misappropriated by the
unscrupulous among us...?  

YES, Ali's proclamations may have played right into the hands of those who 
'needed a black villain' to play lions-and-Christians with -- thus it has 
ever been, and ever shall be.  And YES, his fights in later years were 
more showpieces for the masses than 'artistic boxing events' [Now, THERE's 
an oxymoron for you!].  And YES, the distraction was perfectly placed for
diverting attention away from all the cr*p that was going on politically
in this country behind closed doors and in the warrooms...

But was Muhammad Ali the CAUSE of this, or only one of its many MEDIA??

<< END FLAME >>

- Steve, who_can't_figure_out_how_this_discussion_escaped_SOAPBOX

    re the Rourke "fight", yes it was a decision.  I've seen WWF matches
    where there's less shoving and throwing opponents over the ropes.
    
    
    Did anyone besides me see Ali on the Today show last Wednesday?   To
    say that Ali's "motor reflexes have diminished" (or however Doc worded
    it) is an understatement...the man's speech sounds like a 45 RPM record
    played on 33.  It was painfully obvious that the Parkinson's is taking
    it's toll bigtime on Ali. I never really followed boxing or Ali
    closely, but I almost cried seeing that Today show segment...
    
    
    py               

    Steve -
    
    Geez I' really sorry.  I have opinions.  No, I don't believe any of the
    inane crap you listed in your note.
    
    To make everyone happy - Ali was the greatest.  He was never used.  He
    beat Larry holmes, but Holmes had the fight fixed.   He single-handidly
    make America a better place to live.  He enlightened the world.  He fed
    the hungry.  He almost cured cancer.
    
    You guys can go back to your lovefest.  I guess I should simply have
    started criticizing Sugar Ray Leonard - no one ever has any problems
    with that....
    
    JD

    Paul, my note from last Wednesday describing what I saw on the Today
    show (using words similar to yours) is what started this whole debate.
    
    	--dan'l

If we'd stuck to discussing the tragic decline of a class athlete, maybe
we'd have avoided this unpleasant rathole...

- Steve, who's_glad_to_return_to_homebase

    > glenn, whatever I did to you I have no idea, but to paraphrase you:
    
    Awfully defensive, aren't we JD?  I never claimed that you said Ali was
    fomenting riot.  You made the point that the black-versus-white thing
    was a major element of the Ali mystique (regardless of whether it was
    his idea or whether he was being "used" by promoters).  I rebutted that
    Ali's personal qualities transcended racial boundaries, and any that
    were perceived were strictly the product of the misplaced anxieties of
    those who feared an outspoken black man, or, on the other side, those
    who would somehow mistakenly make Ali out to be a symbol for violent
    black opposition.  I then went on to detail what I felt those positive
    qualities were.  If you don't care to debate those points but would
    rather make this out to be an "Ali jihad versus JD" vendetta, then
    fine, but again I'll say you're missing the point...
    
    Do you acknowledge the qualities I mentioned, or do you continue to
    insist that Ali was acting as nothing more than a puppet for those who
    would control his life?  That's the issue...
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn -
    
    I think Ali was controlled by those around him.  Unwittingly perhaps -
    or perhaps he went along for the ride.  Hey if I'm wrong - that's
    great.  I really didn't expect this attack by those who like Ali. 
    Geez, I'm not saying anything I've not heard before.  And some of it is
    obvious.  But whatever - the Ali of today is a tragic figure.  Wish his
    adoring friends were with him now.
    
    Re: Dan -
    
    You aren't worth my time.  The only opinion I've ever seen or heard you
    agree with is your own.  
    
    JD

    re .174:
    
    > Paul, my note from last Wednesday describing what I saw on the Today
    > show (using words similar to yours) is what started this whole debate.
    
    OK dan'l, I wasn't able to access this conference most of last week and
    missed your original note.  
    
    The early 80s Saturday Night Live Joe Piscipo/Eddie Murphy Ali
    interview parody suddenly doesn't seem as funny...  
    
    
    py

    
    ESPN reported last night that the stiff Mark Gastineau fought
    took a dive.  The stiff reportedly told the National that he was
    paid to take a dive.  I does what I am told.
    
    \pjb

    Yeah, it was reported in the Roanoke News this morning, too. Derrick
    ??? denies the allegation. He was paid $600 for fighting Gastineau per
    standard contract.
    
    Rich
    

   re <<< Note 43.172 by RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JO >>
    
    >>Ali was the greatest
    
    JD, you have seen the light.
    
    >>He was never used.
    
    I don't think anyone here said he was NEVER used. Sure there were some
    who used him...Don King for one. But was ALI the one who was used by
    Dundee or Pachecco or Liston or others? I don't think so, I think it
    was the other way around.
    
    >>  He beat Larry holmes, but Holmes had the fight fixed.
    
    I resent being patronized, John. Nobody on this planet would claim Ali
    beat Holmes. Watching that fight was as sad as watching Willie Mays in
    the twilight of his career. Holmes saw it, I saw it. Don't you recall
    Holmes looking at the ref pleading for the fight to be stopped? 
    
    >>   He single-handidly make America a better place to live.
    
    Come on, man. When you lose a discussion, you really get carried away,
    don't you?
    
    Rich
    
    

When I saw the first replay, I thought it was fixed.  I saw a different
angle on ESPN last night during the "fix" report.  Mark threw two punchs.
He missed on the first, and grazed the throat on the second.  Down goes
the stiff.  He didn't even try to get up.

Revoke both of their licenses.

Mike

> Wish his adoring friends were with him now.                             
    
    From the article I read, a devoted few have stuck by Ali's side
    throughout and serve as testimony to his generosity and compassion.  
    Admittedly, the Don Kings of the world now use Ali as nothing more 
    than a prop, introducing him before big fights to stand up and wave 
    to the crowd and then sit down.  Was Ali used during his career 
    though?  His current condition coupled with the fact that most of 
    the millions he earned were squandered away suggest that he didn't 
    exactly always have people with his best interests around him.  
    (That's the history of the sport, ain't it?)  But I do think that 
    for the most part Ali called the shots and was in control.  He's the
    one, for example, who decided to go ahead with his ill-advised fight 
    against Larry Holmes when people like Ferdie Pacheco left his camp 
    telling him he was risking his future health to do so.
    
    Don't take any of this as an "attack".  If you voice strong, rather
    outrageous and mostly unsupported opinions (like Ali's stance on 
    Vietnam being nothing more than a publicity ploy, his religious 
    conversion being a fraud, his fights all being fixed, etc.) I don't 
    have any problem with it, but you have to know you're going to get 
    an argument.  That in no way constitutes a personal attack, at least 
    not from me...
    
    glenn
        

Is Ali's current condition related to his years in boxing?  I don't know much
about Parkinson's, but if was related, that makes the story all the more tragic.

    I can remember being a great fan of Ali.  At first it was because my
    father hated the man, which later resulted in my pure enjoyment of his
    talents.  (I also made mucho bucks betting on him with friends/family)
    
    It's sad to see him in his current state.  I also find it sad to see
    Joe Schmoe in the same condition.
    
    					Steve

Re: .184

Parkinson's Syndrome is NOT related specifically to the pounding Ali
took -- but perhaps that experience has QUICKENED the pace of the
disease's progress...

Any doctors out there who can tell us for sure?

- Steve

    >Re: Dan -
    
    >You aren't worth my time.  The only opinion I've ever seen or heard you
    >agree with is your own.  
    
    Hmmm, so the fact that you either don't have any evidence of fixes in
    Ali's fights, or are too embarrassed to present any is all my fault.  I
    get it now.
    
    Dan

    re .178
    
    I remember that classic. I don't think even Murphy and Piscipo would do
    it now ... :-(
    
    JD, I respect your right have an opinion. What I don't get is why you
    see me as being a Jihad member out of hand.
    
    It belittles my point of view and my convictions.
    
    You want respect for your view, give a little. Fair enough ?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Doc

    re .186
    
    Parkinson's Syndrome was caused by boxing, but the repeated blows to
    the head have accelerated the condition dramatically.
    
    Ali could always take a punch better than any boxing I've seen
    (Frazier, Shavers, and Foreman come to mind) - and I wonder if this is
    the flip side.
    
    Something have to give ...
    
    Doc

Here's a staggering thought.

Every blow to the head is really two blows to the brain.  What happenes when
you get whacked in the head is that your brain gets an impact where the 
punch lands, but your brain travels inside your head a little bit, so the
side opposite the punch will hit the back side of your skull.

In fact, the "classic" knockout is actually caused by the secondary 
blow on the back side, or so I've read.

In medicine this is called the coup-contrecoup phenomenon...(Ain't it amazin'
what a_ol' EMT class'll teach ya?)


Imagine how many whaps Ali took in his career, and multiply by two folks....

'Saw

    Rich -  
    
    In cae you wondering - I used sarcasm.  But hey, I gave everyone what
    they wanted to hear.  
    
    Dan -
    
    Prove that his fights weren't fixed.  I happen to feel that his fights
    were choreographed - Dan - it happens to be an opinion that I share
    with others - it doesn't mesh with yours - tough.  Now get back on your
    morally superior soapbox and bellow like a good boy.
    
    Doc -
    
    How many opinions have you respected?  How many times have you used
    Jihad - a term bandied around in here with impunity.  I respect you Doc
    - for nothing else than respecting the rights of others to have
    contrary opinions about Ali - something that  some of the others should
    realize.
    
    This rathole is over, as far as I'm concerned - you all can go back to
    back patting and praising the fading memory.
    
    JD

    >Actually, Ali took comparatively few.  Not saying that he didn't take
    >any, but he was masterful at avoiding head shots just as much as he
    >was at delivering them. 
    
    Someone on TV summed up Ali's ability that I heard a few weeks ago:
    
    "Before he was suspended Ali bragged that no one could hit him.  After
     the suspension, he bragged that no one could knock him down."
    
    As the years went on, Ali's head took a great deal of pounding, but his
    heart was his best feature.  He took a terrific beating in the Thrilla
    in Manilla, and it was simply amazing that he managed to turn the
    tables on Smokin' Joe later in the fight.  Perhaps the greatest
    heavyweight fight ever.
    
    JD, can you prove that the 1986 World Series wasn't fixed in favor of
    the Mets?  
    
    Dan

    Actually, there is some proof that Ali's fights were NOT choreographed.
    Interviews I have either read or seen with Joe Frazier, George Foreman,
    Floyd Patterson, for example, all indicate that Ali was the greatest.
    Patterson was bitter about the teasing and the punishment Ali dished
    out and Frazier admitted to alot of showboating to hype the fight
    BEFORE it occured and ole George said he never hit a man harder than he
    hit Ali.
    
    Norton has said many times that he was robbed by the refs but has never
    inferred that the fight was fixed. His bitch was with the system that
    dictated a reigning champ had to be literally knocked down once a round
    to lose his crown.
    
    Shavers said he hit Ali with everything he had but couldn't put him
    away. Holmes said he saw the desire in the eyes but there was nothing
    in the punches.
    
    Does anybody really think these men would carry on a charade this long?
    
    Rich
     

    'Saw, I was under the impression that a knockout was typically caused
    by the head being snapped back.  Something about the blood being cut
    off from the brain momentarily.
    
    I could be wrong...
    
    Mark.

 Actually, I believe a knockout occurs when the actual brain tissue itself
 is slammed up against the inside of the skull bones.    
 
 There is a thin membrane and a fluid sack that is supposed to protect the
 brain from contact with the skull but the force of a punch to the jaw or
 the face defeats that safety feature and the fighter loses consciousness
 (and the fight) as a result.
 
 There's little doubt that boxing causes long-term brain damage.   In some
 it's slight; others much more severe.
 
 Bob Hunt
 

Basically that's what a concussion is, the whapping of yo' brain 'gainst
th' inside o' yo' haid....

I forget the names of the three layers of tissue between the head skull
and the cortex of your brain.  One is the dura, and the other is the 
epidura.  You hear of a subdural hematoma, which is a blood clot/pooling
under the dura.  Because the head is an enclosed space, that bleeding 
creates pressure, and if it ain't relieved but quick, the person is
history.

Used to be if you had a concussion, they didn't want you to sleep,
because they couldn't check for symptoms of problems like the one  
above.  Nowadays, they'll let you sleep, but they do keep an eye
on you....


See what you can learn from watching Doogie Howser ;^)
(Having a brother who works in the OR helps too!)


'Saw

 More on this Mark Gastineau fight fiasco ...
 
 This "Derrick Dukes" guy now denies that he told a reporter in the Roanoke
 airport that a took a dive just 12 seconds into the fight.
 
 What's more, Computer Boxing Update, boxing's leading record keeper, has
 absolutely nothing on record about any fighter named "Derrick Dukes".  A
 spokesmans for Update said ... "I've never heard of the guy and we don't
 miss too much.  As far as we know, no one named Derrick Dukes ever fought
 on this planet before."
 
 "Dukes" promoter, Rick "Elvis" Parker claims that his fighter had a 2-1
 record before he lost to Gastineau.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Bob, the Virginia State Boxing Commish, (get this..) Jerry Beavers,
    says he reviewed the films of the fight and has concluded that Dukes
    was indeed hit with a punch that, in his mind, was capable of knocking
    a guy out.
    
    He then started eating his big tow when he continued, "..I'm not
    entirely certain the punch was capable of lifting a 247 pound man off
    the canvas...". For those who saw the fight ^), Dukes' feet DID leave
    the canvas.
    
    Getting curiouser and curiouser..........
    
    Rich
    

    on brain damage:
    Personally I think brain damage must be there before anyone even starts
    boxing.

    re .193
    
    Granted Hawk, but he took heavyweight punches. Frazier didn't have to
    land that many to make an impression (pun intended).
    
    I remember reading after their third fight that it took Ali a full 24
    hours to mentally pull himself together, and he passed blood for at
    least 2 days afterwards. Ali himself said it was as close to death as
    he ever wants to come.
    
    Aside from all of that, I think it was the post-Foreman beating
    (Frazier III, Norton, Holmes, Shavers, Lyle) that accelerated the P.S.
    probably resulted 

    re .202
    
    Rooolwaard Bob ...
    
    On brain damage :
    
    It's incredible how clinically we've discussed the biology of a KO. Saw
    has it right, it is concussion-related shock that causes a KO.
    
    And when you think about the pounding that some men have taken in the
    ring, I guess I can see why people want the sport abolished. I can
    cheer a gruling fight as loud as the next man, but I remember my ex and
    I discussing the Sugar Rim - Hearns II fight. She said she was wrapped
    up in the fight, but afterwards was ashamed of her reaction. It was too
    cose to the old gladiators for her. And I had no answers.
    
    Could boxing really be banned ? Any thoughts ?

    I thought I remembered hearing/reading that there is no such thing as a
    one punch KO.  It takes 2 punches in quick succession to put someone
    out.

    
    > I thought I remembered hearing/reading that there is no such thing as a
    > one punch KO.  It takes 2 punches in quick succession to put someone
    > out.
    
    Maybe we could set up a demonstration with Mike Tyson to convince you
    otherwise, Mac... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    It doesn't even take a heavyweight to do the job in 1 punch.  Tommy?
    Dorsey knocked his opponent out cold in the first round during one of 
    the Hearns/Hill undercard bouts.  Dorsey weighs 105 lbs, and believe
    me, he nailed 'im.
    
    Mark.

    
    Somewhat related to boxing.
    
    Howard Cosell underwent surgery for cancer.  The surgery went
    well.  Also,  if I remember correctly Howard has Parkinsons disease.
    
    \pjb

    Bob,
    	As I stated b4, I thought the guy took a swan dive. In seeing the
    replay again last night, I am convinced it was a dive. Tis amusing to
    see the bewildered look on Gastineau's face as he stood over the guy.
    It's as if he is saying " Man, I hit Bridgitte harder than this!"
    
    MikeL
    
    

>>    see the bewildered look on Gastineau's face as he stood over the guy.
>>    It's as if he is saying " Man, I hit Bridgitte harder than this!"
    
   MikeL
 Sorry, but he was thinking "Man, if that punch knocked him out, that sucker'd
 be daid if Bridgitte hit him with one of her plastiscene ta-ta's." 

    HTH       :^*}

    rick    

                                       
    I read the other day that ol' hardass Robert "dare you to knock this 
    battery off my shoulder" Conrad claimed after watching Rourke's fight
    that he's a chump and that he could kick Rourke's butt right here and
    now, and challenged him to a fight.  Apparently things are tough when 
    you can no longer find work in the industry...
    
    glenn
     

                       <<< Note 43.208 by SASE::SZABO >>>
>                         -< Sad (sick?), but true... >-
>
>    I'm sure I've said this before (this isn't the 1st time this discussion
>    has occurred!)...  Bob Marley, the reggae king, one time had a small
>    hole drilled in his skull and had that protective (cerebral?) fluid
>    removed so that his brain made constant contact with his skull causing
>    a "permanent high".  He claimed that he no longer got off on the ganja
>    and he needed a better high.  And God knows this man toked!
    
    Hawk, did you renew your subscription to The Enquirer?
    
    Mark.

>   up in the fight, but afterwards was ashamed of her reaction. It was too
>    cose to the old gladiators for her. And I had no answers.
 

I liked the old gladiators fighting.  Manly men, burly men, sweaty men
duking it out with neat weapons and nets and stuff.... Wow!

8^)

'Saw

    'Saw,
    
    	Your note reminded me of the scene in "Airplane" where
    	whathisname from "Mission Impossible" sez to little
    	Timmy, "Timmy, do you like gladiators?"  :^)
    
    Claybone

Joey, have you been in a Turkish steambath ???

    Have you every been in a Turkish prison ?
    
    Have ever seen a grown man naked ?
    
    Have you ever seen gladiator movies ?
    
    Classic stuff ...
    
    And of course from In Living Color ....
    
    "All those sweaty mens living together ...." :-)

    
    	You forgot one Bob.
    
    	"What's your vector Victor?"
    
    	And BTW, stop calling me Shirley!
    
    	Claybone

    The classic part of the movie is the auto-pilot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    REK

I was thinking of that part when I mentioned the gladiator thing.

Doc, "all those sweaty mens" gets me rollward EVERY time...  Can't wait
for the start of next season to see if Blaine stays straight....8^)

My favorite part of Airplane is when Kareem gets fed up and tells the
kid off....

Also like when the sh_t hits the fan....  And when Lloyd Bridges keeps
saying "Looks like I picked the wrong week to give up {cigarettes, booze,
amphetamines}"   

Seriously rollward....

'saw

    Or the time Julie Haggerty had to blow up the auto pilot.

Or the part when one of the passengers get hysterical and the 
stewardess slaps her to calm her down and the camera pans behind 
her to the line of passengers with bats, knives, guns...

>stewardess slaps her 
    
    I just knew we'd get back to boxing sooner or later.
    

Or when Ted was trying to teach the island natives how to play basketball and
two seconds later they were doing slo-mo reverse jams, popping sweet J's from
the outside, behind-the-back passes, index finger twirls, and so on ...

Meanwhile, Elaine was doing a Tupperware party for the island women.

And the little sick girl with IV tubes who almost died when the stew with the
guitar accidentally pulled her tubes out of her arm.

And each of the passengers sitting nexted to Ted committed suicide in a 
different way rather than listen to his long stories about the war.

Classic movie ...

Bob Hunt

    
    "We've got to get these people to a hospital!"
    
    "What is it?"
    
    "It's a large building where they house a lot of sick people, but
    that's not important right now."
    

"Trouble in the cockpit, what's that?"

"It's the place in the front of the plane, but that's not important now!"


I laugh just thinking about that movie...

=Bob=

Anyone see Top Secret?

    Surely you don't think he can fly the plane.
    
    He's our only chance, and stop calling me Shirley.
    
    
    
    
    Little Boy "Cream and sugar"
    
    Little Girl "No thanks, I take it black, like my men"

    re .226
    
    I've lost it.  People are coming by the cube wondering why I'm playing
    hyena, and I can't explain it........
    
    Someday I have to see the movie in English...
    
    A&W

    And the girl who wants to have sex before the plane goes down...
    "I never done this before.... " To every male on the plane...
    Including a horse!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tm
    
    
    REK
    
    Chuck Conners had a great part in the movie too..

    Hey /Don, whats' the difference between todays boxing and junk???????
    
    REK

    To the junk note, please?
    
    Mark.

 Did anyone see that ridiculous circus sideshow act that King and Tyson put
 on yesterday ???   Apparently rumors are flying in Vegas that King and
 Tyson have had some arguments recently and that Tyson has slapped King
 around a bit.
 
 So, they show up for some kind of media thing yesterday and Tyson is
 wheeled in on a hospital bed wrapped in bandages and King is holding a
 common kitchen toaster.
 
 Then King goes on to bluster that Tyson threw the toaster at him so he had
 to smack Tyson around a bit and look what I did to him blah blah blah ...
 
 What a bunch of idiots.  Shoot, the WWF scripts these things better than
 this.   Vince McMahon must have been groaning when he saw this.
 
 Sometimes I'm glad that The Bibe isn't here to see what's happened to his
 beloved sport.   His pain would be unbearable.
 
 Tyson is rapidly falling off the deep end.   Methinks he burned off just
 about all his heat shields during reentry.
 
 Bob Hunt

I can't believe the money that Don King makes for being a total stiff!
America! Love it or leave it!



Steve

yeah, but you GOTTA love his hair.  That man takes the Buckwheat look to
new heights....


Big article in SI on Tyson, and whether he's lost it.  I haven't read the
article (not enough prune juice yesterday I guess) but probably will tonight.

Actually, boxing sucks these days.  There's not much excitement in the sport
anymore.  Hell, the WWF *is* more entertaining....

'Saw

    	I heard the whole thing was a misunderstanding.  Tyson and King
    were in the kitchen when Mike said "I'm the most" and Don (still
    having a hard time understanding Mike's feminine lisp) thought he
    said "I want some toast", and gave him the toaster.  King is a
    promotional genius and the rest of you guys is just jealous.
    
    				/Don

    
    I'll be first in line with my money if and when Tyson and Holyfield go
    at it.  I don't care what kind of crap transpires beforehand, but that
    one should be fun once they step in between those ropes...
    
    glenn
    

    Frank, I disagree.  IMHO, boxing is at it's best in years.  Rim is
    gone, Hearns is showing flashes of brilliance, we have 3 legitimate
    heavyweight contenders (Tyson, Ruddock and Foreman), and there is some
    serious leather being exchanged in many other weight classes.
    
    Pageantry aside (King, Mickey Rourke and Gastineau), I haven't enjoyed
    boxing more since the mid-70's.
    
    Mark.

    	Tyson will win easily tonight.

    Agreed, Tyson will KO within 5 rounds.
    
    Tyson looks like he's in the best physical shape of his career.  Saw
    him on the tube the other night and he looks like he's chisled from
    granite.  Hopefully he's not looking ahead to Evander.
    
    Mark.

    I think Tyson will romp too, but I'll be rooting against all hope and
    common sense that the fight is permitted to be real, Ruddock kicks
    Tyson's butt, and Don King is finally jettisoned from the boxing scene
    into the stinking morass that he has created for himself and all of his
    exploited ex-fighters, including Iron Mike himself...
    
    glenn
    

    I expect another war. If Tyson boxes, he'll cut down Ruddock late
    (rounds 6-8). If Tyson forgets the game plan, and starts headhunting,
    he'll get rocked. Moreover, will Ruddock use BOTH hands in this fight ?
    Last fight, his aresnal consisted of an uppercut, period. He'll need
    both hands firing tonight.

    	Don King is a genius.  Hawk don't like him because Don's got
    more hair than he does.

    
    Tyson is in some SERIOUS shape! The man is cut. Ruddock on the 
    other hand wieghs in 5 pounds heavier than the last fight, not
    too smart Raze. If Tyson boxes instead of looking for the light
    switch he'll win easily. If Razor throws his jab more than 4 times 
    a round he can be effective. We shall see...
    
    
    Steve

    RE: .250,
    
    
    I'm  RRRROOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLIIIIIINNNNNNGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!
    
    
    
    Nelly

Steve,

Read in yesterday's Int'l Herald Tribune that Ruddock is at 238, intending to
be at 235 for the fight - 10 pounds (on purpose he says) more than the last
time.  He also said he has been practising picking his schnauz with his right
hand in the hope that he can work his way all the way to being able to punch
with it tonight.

Tyson, of course, said "I'm gonna kill him early."

He always says that, now doesn't he?

rick

    	Ruddock's jab is about as effective as a Doctor Midnight arguement.
    Tyson in less than 4!
    
    				/Don

    I believe Tyson.  First round knockout, in 40-45 seconds.
    
    NAZZ

>   <<< Note 43.249 by LUNER::BROOKS "Three years today..."

	Happy Birthday, DrM!

Oh yeah, Tyson in two.   Leading to the battle of the 90's: Tyson/Holyfield I,
II, and III.

    Great p-name, Doug!!!
    
    NAZZ

    
    	Tyson in 2.  At 1:56
    
    							bill..g.
    

    You guys are forgetting the Razor showed a great chin in the first
    fight.  No early KO for Tyson.
    
    I'm rootin' for Ruddock...
    
    Dan

    A weight gain of ten pounds in three months suggests to me an out of
    shape fighter.  Ruddock may survive an early Tyson onslaught but will
    run out of gas sooner or later, more sooner than later.
    
    
    py

    
      Tyson will win this in <5 rounds & by knockout.
    
    
    						 glen j.

    Rudduck will take a dive in the 1st or 2nd rounds.
    
    JD

    Old news, but Tyson won a unamimous decision over Ruddock.  I'll post
    my observations when I return to the office on Tuesday.
    
    Mark.

I watched the fights Friday night. In the first fight. Riddock Bowe. the 
silver medalist who got jobbed in Korea, broke the jaw of some guy from
Puerto Rico, no contest. Bowe will be a good heavyweight. 

In the second fight, Azuma Nelson defended his title against Jeff Fenech.
Fenech was undeafeted as a pro and has won three titles in three diferent
weight classes. Fenech was jobbed extrodinaire "buy" the judges who seemed
to be watching a different fight. Unreal. Fench never stopped comimg at
Nelson, he out punched, out boxed, and out pointed him from the opening
bell. The fight went the distance and wound up a draw. The audience was 
livid. Don Bozo King was making excuses to Fenech who was visibly upset
after being denied his fourth and record tying title. King is a stooge.

After watching the second fight Mikey and Raze nearly put me to sleep.
Not much boxing in this one. Both fighters were looking for the big 
punch. Tyson knocked down Ruddock twice, but niether punch was a KO
type punch and Ruddock quickly recovered each time. Ruddock can take a 
punch, ecspecially the 10 low blows Mikey hit him wif for which Tyson had
two points deducted in two different rounds. If someone could teach Ruddock 
throw a jab he could've beat Tyson. Alot of clutching by Ruddock who seemed 
to be more tired than Tyson, but seemed to have enough to keep Tyson at
bay throughout. When Tyson attacked Ruddock had a counter and vice versa.
Not a bad fight. The best part was after the fight when Ferdie Pacheco 
was interviewing Tyson and then wanted to talk to Mills Lane the ref about the
low blows. Bozo was ranting and raving about the officiating and yelling at
Ferdie, telling Pacheco to be fair! It was hilarious. The Ass*hole(King) just
made a gazillion bucks, his fighter won the damn fight and he's crying about
some low blows that were CLEARLY thrown by Tyson. What an idiot.


Steve

    Fenech was even after the 6th round, then swept the last six, IMO.
    A serious bag-job.
    
    I had Ruddock-Tyson 112-111 for Tyson - he won the 12th round to
    squeak out a victory on my card.  For some reason, Tyson did not
    seem to want to finish Razor off in the 2nd and 4th rounds after
    he knocked him down.  Ruddock could have won the fight if he threw
    a few more jabs, and if Mills Lane (who did a very good job as ref
    for the most part) kept deducting points from Tyson for low blows and
    hitting after the bell.  It was amazing to me that Ruddock was the
    one who had a point deducted for hitting after the bell when it
    was Tyson instigating all th e after-the-bell activities, in almost
    every round.
    
    NAZZ

    
    To me it seems like Tyson has lost some of that fire that he once
    possessed, he wasn't stalking Ruddock. After each round he casually
    walked back to his corner showing little to no emotion. As far as
    Ruddock's ability goes, he can take a punch. He telegraphs his punches
    , has little power in his right hand, and is slooooooooooow.
    Compared to the Nelson/Fennech fight it was boring!

    I had Tyson with a narrow victory.  I would like to see Ruddock's
    skills polished up and then I think he could be a destroyer with that
    awesome left.
    
    I don't necessarily buy it that this fight is another indication of
    Tyson's free fall (a theory that seems to be on every boxing analyst's
    tongue).  Mike, despite the hype, was forced to respect Ruddock's
    power, and Ruddock has much *less* respect for Tyson's ferocity than
    most other fighters.  That means they can fight toe-to-toe with no
    backing up, which is how most of Tyson's opponents have fought.  As
    much as Ruddock took some punishement in the fight, and I read he broke
    his jaw, Tyson took some terrific shots to the head which he rarely
    showed effects from.
    
    I agree with Nazz that Tyson initiated all the post-round fighting
    which eventually cost Razor a point.  One of the funniest moments was
    when Tyson had been docked another point for low blows in about the 9th
    round, he came back with 2 or 3 more shots to the cup.  Lane warned
    him, but wouldn't deduct a second point in the same round.  Razor sized
    that up fast and very delibrately came back with his own.  At that
    point Lane stopped the fight and issues a warning to both fighters,
    "Now cut that shit out!".
    
    Dan

 It's not Tyson's physical skills that are fading ...   He's now
 paying the heavy price for foolishly shedding his original managers
 and trainers.
 
 Kevin Rooney used to have Mike prepared to kill.   This new guy,
 Giachetti, has him wading straight and stiff right into the
 opponent's strength.   Whap.
 
 Tyson is winning on strength and reputation.  He's not winning on his
 previously devastating combination of smarts and fury.   That plays
 right into Holyfield's hands.
 
 Bob Hunt

                   
    I guess you guys that had the fight so close weren't giving the
    customary 10-8 for knockdown rounds.  I didn't think the fight was that
    close except maybe for the points lost to penalties.  Your butt hits 
    that canvas twice in one fight, you've got to come a long way back to 
    make it up.
    
    Ruddock does take a punch well, but sure didn't show good balance when
    he did get hit.  That first knockdown was a graze, with Ruddock
    effectively getting hit with all the force of a punch from a
    featherweight.  He clearly wasn't hurt, but you don't want to go
    down regardless...
    
    If and when Tyson fights Holyfield, we just might see the continuous 
    catching of punches with the face in a battle to see who can take the 
    most punishment.  I still say a skilled boxer with a jab could dance 
    circles around either, avoid getting hit, and score with enough
    frequency to make it a relatively easy victory on technical merits.
    
    glenn
     

    
      I agree with Bob H. here. Tyson should have never dumped Kevin
    Rooney.  He had Ruddock reeling in the 2nd and 4th rounds, but didn't 
    put him away.  In fact, he seemed to ease up instead of staying on the 
    attack.  Whatever happened to his devastating left hook?
    
      This all leaves me with the impression that the recent succession of
    'fights' with Buster Douglass and Razor Ruddock is nothing more than
    a master $$ plan by Don King.  And now King is saying that if the 
    Duva Bros will agree to a purse of $25 mil, he'll keep his trap 
    shut.  Puhleeze.
    
    
    						 glen j.

    
    > This all leaves me with the impression that the recent succession of
    > 'fights' with Buster Douglass and Razor Ruddock is nothing more than
    > a master $$ plan by Don King.
    
    I don't think so.  If it were, the proper marketing strategy would have
    been for Tyson to collect the money for this second (and I would hope
    last) Ruddock fight, destroy him in short order, and then properly
    claim a popular mandate for Holyfield/Tyson with the purse split right
    down the middle.  Instead, Tyson's performance only raised more doubts 
    and lent credibility to Holyfield's claim that as champion he should 
    call the shots.
    
    This fight last Friday night was not the enactment of Don King's ideal
    scenario.  Furthermore, Douglas and Holyfield capitalized on Douglas'
    upset of Tyson, not Tyson himself.  If I were Tyson, I'd be concerned
    about my so-called "management".
    
    glenn
    

    Almost died laughing (after getting back from RALPHing in the bafroom)
    during the post-fight press conference.  King was talking about
    negotiating to fight Holyfield and he said 'All we've ever wanted is to
    be treated fairly'.
    
    Haw haw haw!!!  This guy belongs in the Obfuscation HoF, along with
    Saddam and MorT.  On a related front, Arsenio had him on the other
    night and, while I didn't watch it, lost a degree of respect for Mr.
    Hall.  Anybody who gives King a high visibility forum implicitly
    endorses him as a credible figure IMO, which, IMO, he's not.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    > On a related front, Arsenio had him on the other
    > night and, while I didn't watch it, lost a degree of respect for Mr.
    > Hall.  Anybody who gives King a high visibility forum implicitly
    > endorses him as a credible figure IMO, which, IMO, he's not.
      
    Saw that too, Chris, and it made me sick.  Arsenio all butt-kissing
    and condescendingly (paraphrased): "But Don, should we drop down to the 
    level of all these snakes in the media who prey on you and Mike?  
    Shouldn't you just ignore them and not give them the credibility and
    respect that a dignified champion like Mike has worked so hard to
    earn?"  Then, to show his stripes, after Hall complimented Holyfield,
    King turned around and called Evander something to the effect of an 
    empty shell of a human being totally devoid of all character, and 
    reserved worse for his manager.  Real classy. 
    
    I caught the very end of another interview King did with Sam Donaldson. 
    It didn't look like Donaldson was giving King and his checkered past
    quite so much leeway...
    
    glenn
    

    re: glenn
    
    That's *EXACTLY* why I didn't watch Arsenio that night.  He kisses up
    to everybody, and I knew he'd do the same with the the crook King.
    
    Yuk.  
    
    And to answer BobHunt's question, see above.  Arsenio kissed up to
    King.  Now if was Sam Donaldson doing the interview, it mighta been a
    different story.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

                                   
 > Same with King, although certainly with a lot less importance to the
 > issue.   Sounds like your "hired gun" theory is poking its' little
 > head up again.
    
    King's mere presence on the show was not the problem.  If you'd seen 
    the cream-puff interview, with its borderline racist overtones (*my*
    impression, feel free to disagree), you'd agree with Chris' assumption 
    that Arsenio chucked up the ol' credibility...
    
    glenn
      

 You're probably right.  Arsenio is most definitely a "soft"
 interviewer.    But that's what his fans {customers} want.   But
 perhaps, more importantly, maybe that's all that white American will
 tolerate.
 
 Look, I'm no Don King fan.   But I think Arsenio Hall does good work
 and provides worthwhile entertainment that's slightly removed from
 the Carson/Leno-style mainstream.   I'm not willing to downgrade him
 completely just because he went soft on King.   
 
 Besides, Hall's a great interviewer of women.   Lasted year, he got
 Kirstie Alley to admit that she fantasizes about riding naked on a
 Harley.   I was hyperwoodiferous until he went to a commercial break.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Never said I didn't like Hall.  Only said I didn't like Hall when he
    interviews somebody I detest, cause he's a mega-wimp.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
 > You're probably right.  Arsenio is most definitely a "soft"
 > interviewer.    But that's what his fans {customers} want.   But
 > perhaps, more importantly, maybe that's all that white American will
 > tolerate.
    
    I saw Arsenio tear open that fraud Vanilla Ice pretty good for one...
    
    Believe me, Bob, this interview was not the kind that "white America"
    would slurp right up.  I'm sure there were more than a few rednecks out
    there reaching for their shotguns when King started going on about
    "people of the streets like you and me Arsenio rebelling against this
    kind of oppression..." (Arsenio's humorous response: "Well, I'll try,
    Don") in one of his stream-of-consciousness diatribes.  I don't blame
    Arsenio Hall for that, rather King, but I guess I'd prefer that as
    things heat up and get ugly he'd do something to rebut his interviewee 
    lest he be considered in agreement...
    
    This has gotten way off track, but the bottom line is that I really do
    find Don King to be a reprehensible person.  Maybe he's right, the
    media is to blam (tm) for that, but I doubt it...
     
    glenn
                          

    I rarely watch Arsenio anymore - having tired of him.  He's a soft
    interviewer - and I find it interesting he'd tear Vanilla Ice apart.
    Not that I like Vanilla Ice - I don't like him or most rap anyway.
    But, the fack that V.I. is pretty pale in colour doesn't surprise me
    that Arsenio would tear into him, while gushing over Don King.  
    
    Don King - everyone hates him - but remember, your hero and old friend
    ALi spawned Don King and his ilk.  
    
    JD

    
    > Don King - everyone hates him - but remember, your hero and old friend
    > ALi spawned Don King and his ilk.  
    
    Nobody's perfect...
    
    

    
    I watched the Sam Donaldson interview with Don King.  Sam was none
    to kind to King.  Sam was quoting a few people when he made a reference
    to King race baiting when he doesn't get his way.  Prime time ran
    a clip of King berating Holyfield and his "white" manager.  They
    showed King mouthing off that Holyfield doesn't have a brain and that
    he is told what to do.  Holyfield stand up, Holyfield sit down.  It
    was disgusting.
    
    Prime time also interviewed Tim Witherspoon.  Tim at one time was 
    managed by King and Tim accused King of not giving him the money that
    was due.  Witherspoon accused King of ruining his career.
    
    Phil

    Just a FYI ...
    
    If Lane had deducted another point from Tyson for low blows, Tyson
    would have automatically lost by disqualification.
    
    We saw the fallout from the Steele decision in fight one - a diqual.
    would have blown a new hole in the ozone layer ...
    
    Doc

    	With all this hitting below the belt maybe they can call the
    Tyson/Ruddock III match "The Battle Down Under".
    
    				/Don

    I agree with Mike, er Bob Hunt regarding Tyson's problems being due to
    (mis)management.  Tyson's skills are not detoriating, but his strategy
    for finishing an opponent are suspect.
    
    I scored the fight 114-111.  Tyson should have creamed him in the 2nd
    or the 4th.  He almost looked annoyed that he was even in the ring. 
    A Rooney-coached Tyson would have knocked Ruddock out.  I'll say one
    thing, though...Ruddock has a chin.
    
    Too funny during the Pacheco interview was King saying, "We don't want
    Holyfield".  Yeah, like Tyson's gonna get the belt back without going
    through Holyfield. 
    
    Mark.

      .273 glenn w.
    
      I look at it this way:
    
      Tyson barely scores on what little punches he throws in the first
    bout with Douglas.  Then Douglas, IMO, is content to not get up and 
    'take the $$ and run' in his championship fight with Holyfield.  
    
      This sets up a bout with the #1 contender, Ruddock.  Both fighters
    made an excellent showing in the first bout and it definetely shouldn't 
    have been stopped.  I thought at the time that Tyson would have finished
    him off had that fight continued.  But in the second one, he had the 
    opportunity twice to do so, but didn't, which makes me even more 
    cynical about that first bout.  He seemed to ease up at the point where
    he used to be relentless.  
    
      All that aside, it's also obvious that before he lost to Buster 
    it was getting very difficult for $$ to be made off his fights.
    Who wants to bet on or pay top dollar to see a fight thats only gonna
    last for 30 seconds?  And remember Michael Spinks?  He got the 
    hershey squirts(tm) the very second he stepped into the ring.  How 
    many other fighters got that way once they faced the prospect of 
    going into the ring with boxing's version of a pit bull?  And what
    about the fans?  "Yeah, Tyson's a great fighter but he's got no 
    comp'."  For a little while, it didn't appear that anyone would 
    come even close to beating him for at least 3-4 years.  
    
      Enter 'ol King Sleaze.  Have Tyson lose his title, via dive, then
    let the Duva promoted Holyfield win it from Douglas.  Tyson then
    fights the #1 contender, in this case Ruddock, in order to 'earn'
    a shot at Holyfield.  
    
      I will give credit for one thing; the heavyweight division is 
    as popular now as it was during the days of Ali-Frazier-(young)
    Foreman-Norton, etc.  But look a little deeper, and it's obvious 
    that it's no different than the WWF.
    
    						 glen j.  

    Glen J. -
    
    And the scenario you paint is very similar to the one used time and
    time again with a certain other heavyweight.  Have him lose title, then
    regain title, then lose title, then regain title.  Sure fire way to
    keep fan interest.  Boxing was at a low point with Holmes, cuz he never
    lost, and the 'no comp' chant was evident from many quarter.  But now,
    we have quite a few contenders to the throne....
    
    JD

    One minor nit.  Tyson did NOT take a dive against Douglas.  He may have
    not have taken Douglas seriously, for any number of reasons, but
    Douglas kicked Tyson's ass from Tokyo to the moon and back again.
    
    Mark.

    
   > One minor nit.  Tyson did NOT take a dive against Douglas.  He may have
   > not have taken Douglas seriously, for any number of reasons, but
   > Douglas kicked Tyson's ass from Tokyo to the moon and back again.
    
    And because it wasn't considered to be much of a fight, no odds were
    even posted and hardly anyone saw it, much less pay for it (I listened 
    through the scrambled TV picture...)
    
    There's no question that boxing has become an orchestration of
    carefully selected bouts and opponents.  However, there are too many
    anomalies to support this "King master fix" theory.  The first problem,
    as I said before, is that I don't believe King would give up the belts
    and let everyone else make the money for so long at his and Tyson's
    expense.  The second is that Tyson's reputation has slipped far further
    than necessary to sustain interest in the heavyweight division.  Once
    he lost to Douglas, it would have been quite enough to blow through the
    remaining pretenders (especially Ruddock II) on the road to this big
    super-extravaganza mega-revenge death grapple with Evander "The
    Philanderer" Holyfield.  Most of what has happened has not made that
    much sense...
    
    glenn
                          

    re.  Note 43.264 by RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JO 
    
     >                        -< It's all fixed... >-
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    >Rudduck will take a dive in the 1st or 2nd rounds.
    
    >JD
    
    That was quite a dive Ruddock took, huh? Obviously it was fixed, no
    question (read Sarcasm)
    
    If a fighter loses due to being fairly beat, being out of shape, having
    family problems on the mind or whatever, there will always be those who
    claim every fight is choreographed, planned and fixed. Nothing anyone
    can say will change these minds. 
    
    As far as this flap about Don King, I wouldn't invite him home for
    dinner or engage him in conversation but he's no worse or better than
    greedy agents (Howard Slusher), greedy lawyers or greedy doctors. He's
    taking all he can get by being as outrageous as he can be. He uses the
    race issue when it suits him (which is the single issue I find most
    repulsive about him). 
    
    But bottom line is: he gets big contracts for fights he promotes. He is
    a master at it. The guy isn't stupid. 
    
    Perhaps the thing that bothers people is that boxing is a noble sport
    in many circles. The purist of all athletic events. An traditional avenue 
    for the poorer men of our world to make the big bucks by using a skill
    they honed during their childhoods by just trying to stay alive. 
    
    Men like King have always existed but they operated behind the glitter.
    Bob Arum is no sleazier than King - just quieter. But then King comes
    along - questions white domination of a sport made up mostly of
    non-whites - and starts a side show to each event he is involved in.
    
    I think if one scratches the surface and examines what is really
    happening, one gets a better sense of King's antics.
    
    Rich
    

    	Well Don King did it!  To quote the master himself he "snatched
    victory out of the jaws of defeat" and signed Tyson up for a November
    8th title bout with Holyfield.  Is this guy good for boxing or what?!?
    
    				/Don

       Donbo said he did it "for the people". What a great humanitarian!
                                                 Denny

    
    Bozo did it because Mikey told him, "get me a title fight, or I find
    a new manager." So they settle for 15 mil, while Holyfield gets 30m.
    I bet ol' Bozo is sobbing in his Bosco.
    
    
    Steve

	The *real* reason King had to make the fight was because the "Evil 
One" a.k.a. Lou Duva had tied up all potential Tyson opponents, the last 
straw being Gorge Foreman.  What's a manager to do?  Don King being the 
"Peoples Promoter" knew he had to make this sacrifice for the good of 
boxing and for the good of the boxing fan.  Only in America!  That Don King 
is alright in my book!  Way to go Don!  Way to put the benefit of the fan 
ahead of personal greed!  What a guy!

				/Don

Kev, it's OK for Hawk to use that because he's making a direct quote.

Of course, he didn't attribute the quote to anyone in this instance, but
he has attributed that quote in the past to Buckwheat, uh, er Don King....

hth,
'Saw

    So anyway, who you guys think will win? 

       Tyson'll moider him!
                                              Denny

    Up until Tyson/Razor II, I figgered Tyson would knock Holyfield's haid
    off.  I'm not so sure anymore.  
    
    The cynic in me says Tyson would win any decision to create more
    lucrative rematch possibilities than a Holyfield win would.  Tyson
    having 2 losses would severely decrease his marquis value.
    
    Mark.

       Well, I look at it this way:
    Holyfield could hit Tyson with a 2x4 and not knock him down. The only
    way he has a chance to beat Mike is a decision. And I don't think he
    cain stay away for 12 rounds.  Ruddock did it, but he's a lot bigger
    than Holyfield. If he couldn't put Foreman away, he doesn't have a
    chance vs Tyson.
                                            Denny

    I predict a draw.
    
    NAZZ

    
    I predict a flesh wound.........
    
    Claybone

       I say they should put Hoyfield, Tyson, Ruddock and Foreman in a
    'steel cage' and fight to the death!
                                         Denny

A cage match....modern Gladiator games...oooh I have a woodie...


Holyfield and Tyson will hack each others arms and legs off until they're
both bloody torsoes, yelling "Come back here and fight, I'll bite your
tes-ti-ckals off....."


'Saw

    
    I wouldn't be surprised to see Holyfield "accidentally" hit Tyson in
    the "test-TA-kals" while Tyson was in the middle of getting manhandled. 
    Tyson could then be declared the winner, which set the stage for a
    rematch.  
    
    Anything other than a solid decision, one way or the other, will really
    open up an even more serious questioning of the integrity of the "sport."
    
    
    Bruce  
    

 When are they going to fight the real "people"'s champ Tommy "the Duke" .....

 after all he was trained by Rocky himself!!!!!!!!

 mike

    Mike, if Morrison comes out and fights like he did during his last
    bout, he'll be the Great White (punchdrunk) Dope.
    
    Mark.

       Anyone have any comments on Foreman/Arum and their possible lawsuit? 
    Personally I hope they file it and win. George got the shaft big time
    on this one. This was low even for boxing! Best line was Arum saying: 
    "When Don King is more trustworthy than your partners it's time to find
    another business".
    
                                              Denny

    Yabbut (tm) Denny, Foreman will be the big winner when he fights the
    winner.  Now that Ruddock is out of the way, Foreman will earn twice as
    much as he would have before a Tyson/Holyfield matchup.
    
    Mark.

       surprised noones mentioned tonights big fight. Larry Holmes vs
    someone named Eddie Gonzales. Live and in color at 9 PM on USA.
    It'll be tough deciding between th efight and Audobon Society on Ch 2.
    
                                         Denny

>    Denny, is the Audobon Society bringing back "Tuesday Night at the Cock
>    Fights" again?

Nope, that's on the Playboy Channel....


    

    
    Really boring fight last night.  It went the whole 10 rounds, and
    Holmes won (unanimous decision).  Crowd wanted Eddie Gonzales to win,
    and were cheering for him throughout the fight.  Eddie was just happy
    that he went the distance.
    
    - Ken -
    

    
    Holmes looked old and tired. I hate to see him come back looking for
    that big payday. I really think he'll get hurt if he ever faces a
    decent heavyweight, which I don't think he will get that chance.
    Gonzalez is a real "Slim Fast" commercial waiting to happen, just think
    he was really a cruiserweight!

       Bob Lobel said it best: "Eddie makes Buster Douglas look like an
    athlete"!
                                      Denny

    
    Poor Iron Mike Tyson.  When he's not using his massive hands to pound
    someone's head down into their shoulders, he just can't seem to keep
    his hands to himself.
    
    A while back he landed in court for allegedely fondling some innocent
    virgin, was found guilty, and had to pay $100.00 in damages.  Tsk tsk.
    Pretty rude there, Mike.  Hope that taught you a lesson.
    
    Now he finds himself in a little more trouble, all stemming from his
    guest appearance at some Miss Black America beauty pageant.  (Say, do
    they have a Miss White America pageant?)
    
    Anyway, his biggest problem is an alleged rape that took place late
    that evening.  I don't remember if the incident took place in his or
    her hotel room.  Next, one of the contestants is suing for a whopping
    $100 million because she claims he put his arm around her waist, then
    slid his paw a little too low.
    
    Now that the fox in the henhouse has been identified, the folks who run
    the pageant are suing also, claiming than 11 of the 23 contestants were
    treated the same way by the young pugilist. They're asking for damages
    over $20 million.
    
    I'm not making any judgements here one way or the other, but asking for
    $100 million for his boorish game of grabass?  If it were me, would
    they ask for all of my three-figure bank account and my car with a loan
    balance?  My appliances?  Everything I own?  If a homeless wino grabbed
    the same girl's rumpus room at a bus stop, would she go after the
    tattered clothes off his back in a court of law.  Of course not.
    Gee, maybe Mike's money has a leetle something to do with this?  
    
    The rape is another thing.  That is one serious charge.  But $100
    million for a feel???  Taking *everything* he has ever worked for?
    
    Watch out Mike.  There will be plenty of young ladies backing into you
    wherever you go, so keep the gloves on lest some million dollar heinie
    brushes up against your hand "accidently".
    
    Dickstah
    

>>    her hotel room.  Next, one of the contestants is suing for a whopping
>>    $100 million because she claims he put his arm around her waist, then
>>    slid his paw a little too low.
  
Good note Dickstah.  

I'm surprised that someone can legally sue for $100 million for an alleged
bum touch.  How can that be?  Doesn't a judge or someone do an initial check
when the suit is filed?  Weird.

The price of fame.
 
{sigh}

rick

I don't know about there being a Miss White America Contest, but I just
thought up a nifty way of doing a Miss Green America Contest, involving
a rolling ship deck, lots of Jack Daniels, maggot filled meat, pus, blood,
and other gory things.

The first one to Power Puke is Miss Green America...  And she gets to
kiss Bert Parks square on da lips....


8^)

 Bingo, Dickstah.  I thought the exact same thing when I first saw the
 reports on this.   She claims that he "fondled her rear" and she's
 now suing him for $100 million dollars !!!   That is one *EXPENSIVE*
 piece of ass ya touched there, Mike.   Ouch.
 
 Absolutely ridiculous.   If he raped someone, then throw the book at
 him.  Lock him up for a long, long time.    But a hundred million for
 a feel ???   Have people completely lost their minds ???
 
 Yes, he's an immature, over-agressive, simple-minded jerk.   Yes, he
 should keep his hands to himself.   Yes, he should stay away from
 beauty pageants if he can't control himself.   But, a hundred million
 dollars ???
 
 And isn't it interesting that this happened in a beauty pageant
 environment ???   I mean, here's a badly outdated venue which is
 almost completely devoted to lusting over beautiful women and one
 such woman is offended to the tune of $100 million that someone would
 actually dare to think of her and treat her as just such an object.   
 
 She devoted however many years and however much sweat to get into
 that pageant just so she could perhaps cash in on men leering at her.  
 Oh, yes, what lovely legs ... let's give her a scholarship !!!   My,
 what wonderful teeth ... here, have an expense-paid round trip to
 Tahiti.    Good heavens, what a tantalizing tushie ... here, let's
 unofficially see what that thing unofficially feels like ...   
 
 WHAP !!!   Lawsuit city.    
 
 What utter hypocrisy !!!   It's okay for her to shake her booty
 during the swimsuit contest in front of the TV cameras but it ain't
 okay when someone with an id fixation decides to check out said booty
 for himself.  Unreal.
 
 Tyson's a jerk.  Has been for a long time.   But this beauty queen
 has naked *GREED* written all over her.   *NO* female caboose is
 worth a hundred million dollars.   Obviously, now, I'm in for all
 kinds of backlash from the pro-feminist side of the issue.  Let me
 once again restate the obvious ...  
 
 Tyson needs to keep his filthy hands to himself.   Had that been one
 of my daughters, I'd have gone after him in a flash ... despite his
 brutal fighting skills.   He's completely and totally wrong in this
 instance.  I'd have gotten seriously hurt but I would have been
 right.
 
 But, it wouldn't have happened to my daughters because I have
 absolutely no intention of ever encouraging (or supporting) their
 interest in beauty pageants ... at least, not in their current model. 
 If today's women want today's men to stop treating them as objects,
 then they have to stop behaving as objects.    NOW !!!
 
 And greed is not a substitute.
 
 Bob Hunt

    
    "Say kids, getting bored with the game 'Mike Tyson's PUNCHOUT'?
    
     Now try Ninnytendo(tm)'s
    
                   'Mike Tyson's GRABBASS'"
    
    Level 1   You must guide Mikie through the P.S. 191 schoolyard as
              he tries to touch as many little fannies as he can.  But it
              isn't easy with all the running, tag-playing, and girls 
              jumping rope that get in the way.  Takes skill and the action 
              is fast!
    
    Level 2   Once again you control Master Mike as he weaves his way
              across the gym floor at the junior high school dance.  Each
              bum reached is worth valuable advancement points, but don't 
              get knocked over by the break dancers, or worse, caught by
              the chaperones, or your game could be over!
    
    Level 3   Ho Ho!  The difficulty level soars as you now have more 
              points--- and a watchful wife and public awareness that 
              now makes play more difficult!  Watch your moves carefully,
              because the evil mother-in-law can appear on the screen at
              any time!
    
    Level 4   The game has never been more glamorous, or more risky!  Only
              the seasoned player can distinguish between the tush's with
              the tender touch, and the tush's with teeth.  Remember, one
              bad move and you could lose all your points and the game
              ends!
    
    
    Look for "Mike Tyson's GRABBASS(tm)" at "TOYS BE US" and other fine
    stores!
    
    
    Dickstah
    

    First, Dickstah - too funny.
    
    Bob, et al.  I concur about the tush-patting pricetag.  Outrageous. 
    The rape charge is totally different - treat him like any other person
    accused of that crime.  
    
    Beauty pageants - they serve no purpose.  Heck - if I want to see women
    in bathing suits, I'll go to th epool or the beach - and at least there
    they walk normal, smile normal, and have real hair, and wear sandles
    and not high heels.  Is there anything more stupid looking then a
    beauty pageant swim suit competition.  Ugly bathing suits, super coifed
    hair, makeup, and high heels!  Be REEEELLL.
    
    JD

    Re 'Saw's Miss Green America--Thanks 'saw, I was eating my lunch whilst
    reading and now my complete lunch, both uneaten and what had already
    gone down, is on the keyboard and desk!!!
    
    Re $100Million for a touch of the "cheek"--Obviously, this b__ch is
    going into court with an ultra high amount, and figuring that Tyson's
    insurance co. is going to offer some kind of settlement, probably a
    couple of million, and she'll jump on it and both she and her attorneys
    will be happy.
    
    Re Tyson and rape, if he is guilty and gets sent to jail, he'll do some
    boxing to protect his heiny from being the one that gets touched!!!
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Jake, what insurance company covers Touchem' Tyson for
    this act?
    
    Good hands Allstate?
    Piece of the Rock?
    
    REK

    >>Jake, what insurance company covers Touchem' Tyson for
    >>this act?
    
    >>Good hands Allstate?
    >>Piece of the Rock?
    
    >>REK
    
    
    Being that Tyson is a mental midget, he has to carry some kind of
    liability insurance for "Dorky, A$$holish, Immature Acts" with someone.
    
    
    JaKe
                                                  

Jake --

If you power puked, you get to kiss Bert Parks square on the lips 8^)

    The rape charge is the most serious of the charges against Mike.  The
    court case should be interesting.
    
    I believe that the other case is actually for sexual assualt (or
    battery, not sure which), which has a legal definition which includes 
    touching someone after being asked not to on body parts defined as
    sexual.  Remember that merely *touching* someone can be battery, and a
    chargeable offense, under the proper circumstances.  One of the keys is
    that the victim must feel at risk of injury or harm if the victim
    refuses to submit to the advance.  In most cases, risk of injury or
    harm has to include actively threatening behavior or a weapon being
    present.  Because of Mike's profession, simply standing there may be
    considered enough to incite fear of injury or harm in the victim.
    
    Please, please, on both sides of the gender gap, be sure that your
    advances are welcome before you proceed.  Talk first.  Find out
    something about that person you lust after.  Get to know them, at least
    a little bit.  Check periodically that your partner is still as 
    interested as you are as things heat up.  Then you won't find yourself
    as a defendent in one of these.  Questionable behavior (and I am being
    kind) is far more rampant than you think :-( .
    
    The court case should be interesting.......
    
    A&W  

    <set mode Jimmy Carter>
    
    Soo A&W, tell me something about yourself...
    
    ;^)
    
    Kev
    

>>Jake --

>>If you power puked, you get to kiss Bert Parks square on the lips 8^)

    Power wasn't the word for it.  More like Nuking something, melted the
    keys and all.  BUT I AIN'T KISSING BERT PARKS.   Where's Bess Myerson
    when you need her.
    
    
    JaKe
    
    

       The pageant is also suing Mighty Mikey. The director of the event
    says Mike's a "serial buttocks fondler".
                                          Denny

             <<< VAXCAT::$1$DKA300:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FRIENDS.NOTE;4 >>>
                         -< Friends Around the World >-
================================================================================
Note 13.20           Requests For Prayers & Positive Energy             20 of 20
MEO78B::CASEY "VAXphone = SNOV20::CASEY and WAIT!!!" 28 lines  26-AUG-1991 11:52
                    -< Ex World Champ Hurt in Car Crash.. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's a real nice bloke out here in Australia who could do with some help..


Former world boxing champion, John Famechon, is in intensive care after 
being hit by a car. 

Sydney police said Famechon was knocked down on the Hume Highway (the main 
highway between Sydney and Melbourne) near the Sydney suburb of Warwick Farm 
on Saturday afternoon. 

He is currently unconscious, has severe head injuries and is being kept alive 
by machine right now. 

John is the son of former French welterweight Andre Famechon. John (real name 
Jean) was born in Paris on 28 March, 1945. He arrived in Australia in 1950 
with his parents and younger brother, Chris. 

"Fammo", as he's affectionately known here, took part in 67 professional 
bouts, winning the world featherweight title from Cuba's Jose Legra in London 
in 1969. He then defended his title twice against Japan's "Fighting Harada" 
before relinquishing it to Vincente Saldivar in Rome in 1970.

Hang in there, "Fammo".


Don
*8- 

    Tyson was indicted today for rape.
    
    Although he's innocent until proven guilty, I feel Tyson should
    postpone the fight until after the trial.  If innocent, he gets even a
    bigger draw in the spring; if guilty, there's no risk of him taking 3
    heavyweight belts to jail.
    
    If convicted, he'll see a mininum of 5 years prison, with as much as
    60.
    
    Mark.

    Prediction:	Ali (Cassius Clay) will have served more time for 
    		refusing to participate in a questionable (at best)
    		war than Tyson will have for raping a young woman.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

 If he goes to jail, he'll be all set cause King's already got connections
 there...

    Chris, who says he's guilty?
    
    Mark.

    Naw, don't postpone the fight.  According to some Glob sportwriter
    
    IF he fights, the gummint (read I.R.S.) will get millions and millions
    
    of dollars, more than enough to offset the costs of his trial and
    
    incarceration.
    
    Of course, he IS innocent (my comment)!
    
    Kev
    

    I predict King will pay the woman some astronimical amount of money to
    drop the charges.
    
    Sad, but likely.
    
    Mark.

    I'm not saying he's guilty, just making a prediction that's contingent
    on him being guilty.
    
    Unfortunately though I think Mark is probably right.  The judge is
    obviously concerned about this, cause he gave strict orders that Tyson
    (i.e. King) not contact the woman in any way.  If I were the
    prosecution I'd keep this girl under *close* scrutiny ....
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    
>    Unfortunately though I think Mark is probably right.  The judge is
>    obviously concerned about this, cause he gave strict orders that Tyson
>    (i.e. King) not contact the woman in any way.  If I were the
>    prosecution I'd keep this girl under *close* scrutiny ....
    
    	I've got to ask why?  
    
    	First, what is the motive or purpose behind this litigation.  Is
    it to bring justice, reform, or make some money?  Just what is the
    motive?
    
    	Regardless, if the woman wanted to settle out of court which many
    people do, why shouldn't she?  Afterall, it deals with her and not
    with anyone else.  If she wanted to drop the case, it's up to her.
    If she were asked to settle out of court, maybe she would think that
    a couple of million would suffice for the pain and suffering.
    
    	Personally, I think Tyson is still a street punk, but I don't think
    that this case will deter his future actions.  Should he be punished if
    he is indeed guilty?  Yes, I believe so, but basically it is up to the
    woman if she wants to press on.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

    If this were a lawsuit bill, you'd be right.  The woman would be free
    to settle out of court for any amount of money the two (2) parties
    could agree on.
    
    But we're dealing with a *criminal* trial here.  You can't settle out
    of court when you've indicted for a felony!  (A legal system that
    allowed this kinda thing would be a mockery of justice.  Rich folk
    would NEVER go to jail, for all intensive purposes ...)
    
    It is possible for the woman to drop her charges, but for Tyson/King to
    offer her money would be a felony, I believe.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    What's "sad" is that a man totally out of control with his life has
    made yet another abuse of his position as a public figure. If he was
    just another street hood they would have locked him up a long time ago.
    
    What is "sad" is that any semblance of justice will be severely tested
    if/when this whole thing goes to trial. Imagine the media circus!
    
    The bottom line is that people are 100 % responsible for their actions.
    People can enjoy the benefits of their successes, but must pay the
    consequences of their mistakes and failings. 
    
    Tom 

    I'm not paying a dime to have the case dropped!!!!!
    
    

I think we should handle this Snuffy Smith style, and have all of 
boxing's "seniors" level out a punishment.  Hey, it worked for King Rice,
right?

                                 
    It's certainly within their rights to do so, but if the powers that be
    in boxing allow this fight to come off it will just further
    de-legitimize this "sport", possibly and finally beyond any repair.  
    Tyson should not be stepping into the ring to fight for a championship 
    with the specter of a rape trial hanging over his head.  It's extremely
    cynical for the boxing promoters to sell this fight with the full
    knowledge that some people may buy into this circus of all media 
    circuses merely out of the curiosity of seeing the brutal fighter slug 
    it out one last time before being locked up for good.  I have little 
    doubt that's what it'll turn into.  It's a disservice to Tyson himself 
    to allow the fight to go on.  And as usual, it's the promoters who will 
    benefit from this charade.
    
    Needless to say, if Tyson were to fight and lose, look for Don King and
    entourage to pretend they never knew the man in fleeing the
    rat-infested ship...
    
    I guess at least we won't be subjected to any more of those
    disgustingly apologetic propoganda pieces from the likes of Spike Lee
    on how Tyson is a misunderstood, caring father who's been the unwitting
    and innocent foil of the evil media.  He's been covered for far too 
    long.  Even if Tyson's eventually found innocent of this particular 
    charge, the string of incidents involving his crude and sometimes 
    violent behavior towards women is just too large to ignore...
    
    glenn
    

    So, Glenn, despite being innocent until proven guilty, Tyson should
    put his life on hold until the judicial system frees up enough time to
    try him?
    
    Will we see a TV movie nexted year entitled "I was raped by Mike
    Tyson".  Don't tell me that this woman can't see some potential for
    bringing up charges against a celebrity and getting herself a nice cash
    cow.  There are paternity suits against celebs being thrown out of
    court all of the time.  Before people start bashing me, I just wanted
    to throw out an alternate view point.  I'm willing to sit back, hope
    justice is served, and let the jury decide.

    What's the scoop on this rape?  Did he 'ask' her to his room?  Did
    she 'ask' him to her room?  Did he 'force' her to his room?  Or did
    she 'force' him to her room?  Is she a tease?  Did he flash his
    wallet or his appendage?  Is she trying to finance a trip to Hawaii?
    Maybe he simply had a adverse reaction to an all-you-cain-eat oyster
    bar.  I don't think you can convict a young man before his trial just
    because he's an oversexed, undereducated illiterate idiot that doesn't
    know how to control his gland-controlled thoughts and actions.  Could
    be that this poor victom missunderstood what this young, lovely beauty
    queen meant when whe was batting her eyes and adjusting her plunging
    neckline.
    
    Hey, I donno...I wasn't there either.
    
    Cowboy  

    Cowboy, according to what I heard on the news today, Mike invited her
    up to his room.  She went figuring the whole thing would be platonic. 
    She claims that she denied his advances and then he forced himself on
    her.

    The prosecution claims to have physical evidence to prove its case. 
    Apparently she was pretty banged up the next day ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris

                                                 
    > So, Glenn, despite being innocent until proven guilty, Tyson should
    > put his life on hold until the judicial system frees up enough time to
    > try him?
    
    In a word, yes; that would be the right thing to do.  In the absence of
    delaying defense tactics that undoubtedly will be tolerated because 
    of Tyson's celebrity status and the recognition of the demands 
    of uninterrupted training required in preparing for a title fight, I 
    think he could have a trial completed within six months, would avoid a 
    lot of ugliness that will certainly surround this fight, and could then 
    without distraction deliver the "quality" fight that both he and boxing 
    fans should demand and expect.  As I said, while it's certainly within 
    his rights to go ahead and fight, I do think that his promoters are 
    doing both Tyson and fight fans a disservice, and that postponing the 
    fight is indeed the right thing to do at this point for all concerned.
    
    As it stands now, it looks to me like a grab-the-cash-while-you-can 
    venture that shows no concern for Tyson's legal problems or future,
    much less any respect for the alleged victim's claims...
    
    glenn
    

    
    > I've been kinda looking at this thing inthe same perspective that Mac
    > presented.  One thing I heard on the tube last night was that this
    > woman supposedly agreed to the date with Tyson under the condition that
    > it be strictly plutonic.  That right there sounds suspicious to me...
    
    And on the other hand, I would say it's possible for an 18-year-old girl 
    to be completely ignorant of Mike Tyson's personal history, especially 
    as he was invited to this wingding by dignitaries in Indianapolis to rub
    elbows and make friendly with the likes of Jesse Jackson and other 
    celebrities.  I can't say I have a bias one way or the other yet on 
    this particular rape accusation.  What I will say without reservation 
    is that Tyson has once again exercised extreme stupidity in his manner
    of personal behavior...
    
    glenn
    
    

    
    
    	re: Chris
    
>    But we're dealing with a *criminal* trial here.  You can't settle out
>    of court when you've indicted for a felony!  (A legal system that
>    allowed this kinda thing would be a mockery of justice.  Rich folk
>    would NEVER go to jail, for all intensive purposes ...)
    
    	Gee, rich folk not going to jail is nothing new... I wonder if
    Mr. Smith will see any time if convicted?
    
    	The issue is that the Grand Jury found enough evidence to warrant
    a trial.  Now if the woman wants to drop the charges, that's up to 
    her.  I wouldn't put it past "King-World-Productions" to sweeten the
    pot either.  No one says they have to make contact with the woman,
    but they could make the offer.  Of course at this time if she did that,
    holy hell would break out with a call for an investigation.
    
    	Like I said, Tyson is still a punk any way you look at it.  If
    he is innocent, so be it.  If he is found guilty, how much time do you
    think he will do?  Probably the same as Mr. Smith in Florida.  The
    Judicial system in this country is and has been corrupt for quite 
    some time, so nothing would surprise me here.
    
    								bill..g.
    

    Is this stemming from the same incident mentioned awhile back where
    Mike allegedly goosed a beauty contestant?

 Same beauty pageant, different contestant ...
 
 Bob Hunt

    In a criminal trial, the victim is not the one who brings charges, the
    state is.  Therefor, the woman (victim) in this case can't "drop the
    charges" - the most that she can do is change her testimony during the
    trial such that the prosecution cannot prove that a crime was
    committed.  It is not uncommon in rape cases for there to be an
    injunction against the accused contacting the victim.
    
    Mike's behavior during the beauty pageant was questionable all around. 
    It included both this rape charge and the "goosing" incident.  They are
    not the same incident, although they are both the result of Mike's
    attendance at the activities surrounding the beauty pageant and, I
    believe, some sort of black activities week in Indianapolis.
    
    It is likely that the case will not come to trial for up to a year
    after the crime took place.  The Willie Smith case is now scheduled for
    some 9 months after the crime he is accused of took place, and I'd be
    willing to bet that there will be a further delay.  I expect Tyson's
    lawyers to be equally adept at finding reasons to delay his trial.  To
    restrict a person from their livelihood (Smith is still, to the best of
    my knowledge, practicing medicine as a resident in Washington) while
    awaiting trial doesn't seem like a good legal practice.  The fact that
    Tyson rakes in megabucks on a somewhat sporadic basis, rather than a
    weekly paycheck, doesn't change the base issue.  Whether he has a
    *moral* obligation to keep a low profile while awaiting trial is
    another issue.  (I tend to be one of those who would rather see the
    fight postponed, but don't expect it to happen because of the greed
    of the promoters.)
    
    The young woman who is the victim was probably somewhat naive to
    believe that the invitation to Mike's room would be entirely platonic. 
    However, beauty pageants are generally very heavily chaperoned, and
    Mike was in a position where it should be expected that he would be on
    his best behavior.  I'm not sure that I would have declined the
    invitation to speak personally with a celebrity under similar
    circumstances.  She won't come out of the publicity scot free either. 
    Whether she goes an exploitation route in trying to gain *something* from
    this horror show, or simply fades into national obscurity remains to be 
    seen.  I'm not making any bets.
    
    I hope that the state of Indiana is able to hold a fair trial, and
    render a just verdict.
    
    A&W

>    know how to control his gland-controlled thoughts and actions.  Could
>    be that this poor victom missunderstood what this young, lovely beauty
>    queen meant when whe was batting her eyes and adjusting her plunging
>    neckline.
>    
>    Hey, I donno...I wasn't there either.
    
    You think that Tyson is the victim?  And it doesn't matter one little
    bit if she's batting her eyes or if her neckline is plunging to her
    knees...  if she refused his advances, he chose to ignore it.
    

    

    The suit in the goosing incident is a civil suit brought by the alleged
    victim and not a criminal suit.  That can be settled out of court or
    dropped at any time.
    
    As Alison said, the rape case is an entirely different matter.  All
    that's happened is that there is enough evidence to charge Tyson of the
    crime and bring him to trial, and it's up to the court to weigh the
    evidence and convict him if they find him guilty.  He can plead guilty
    at any time and take his chances but I tend to doubt that will happen
    here.  Tyson has been accused and not convicted and I believe he should
    be allowed to pursue his boxing career.  I believe that to be true of
    anybody who has been accused of a crime.  State Boxing Commissions may
    refuse to grant him a license but that would be just as wrong as what
    happened with Muhammad Ali.  We as the public (ie, the consumers of
    sport) on the other hand have no obligation to pay good money to watch
    any of his fights.              
    
    I feel the same way about the Willie Smith case.  He's been accused,
    not convicted.  He has the right to pursue his career unless he is
    convicted.  If he's convicted, chances are he'll never be a doctor.  If
    he's never convicted, I do hope he's allowed to pursue his career
    unless the states have some sort of morals clause or something that
    they can invoke.
    
    Unfortunately for people in the public eye, such as Tyson and Smith
    (who may be just as guilty of being a Kennedy as he is of what he did),
    it is impossible for them to get a fair trial and that hurts the
    accusers just as much as the alleged victims.  Not only that but the
    stigma of being accused will hang over them for the rest of their lives
    even if they are acquitted.  It would hurt Smith more in the long run
    than it will Tyson.
    
    This by no means is meant to belittle what Tyson and Smith allegedly
    did.  It is still up to the courts to determine guilt or innocence.  I
    have no opinion on their guilt or innocence one way or another but I
    would find it impossible to be an impartial juror for either.  I just
    don't like Tyson as a person.  In Smith's case, I find it hard to
    separate his being a Kennedy from what he did.  I liked Jack and Bobby. 
    The antics of Ted and some of the rest of the family have biased me
    against them ever since and it makes me feel bad for those family
    members who do nothing, behave themselves but can't get out from under
    the problems inherent in being a member of the family (ie, too much
    publicity).
    
    John  

    > You think that Tyson is the victim?  And it doesn't matter one little
    > bit if she's batting her eyes or if her neckline is plunging to her
    > knees...  if she refused his advances, he chose to ignore it.
    
    I'm sure that Tyson is probably guilty (although I have nothing to
    back that up other than what this 'young, innocent beauty' claims.
    
    I also believe that Tyson may be a victim...although he's probably
    still guilty.  It's just too unbelieveable that this gal would agree to
    be in the same room, alone, with Tyson, without a motive of her own.
    Like someone noted earlier, the contestants are constantly with
    their chaperons and could not do much without him knowing.  What
    was her chaperon doing during this time?  Did she and Tyson give
    him the slip?  We'll probably find out the truth and someone will
    eventually make a series of movies on Tyson but I still say that
    she's TOO BLAM TOO!!!!
    
    hth, Cowboy
         

    Tyson will be in court today and will enter a plea of not guilty.  The
    trial is not expected to take place until next year.
    
    Asking Tyson to give up his livelihood until the trial is akin to
    punishing him before his guilt/innocence is determined.

    FWIW, one of the charges against Tyson is for unwillful confinement, or
    some such thing.  I don't think it's even been established that the
    girl went to his room voluntarily, so again I would refrain from
    jumping to conclusions here.
    
    > Asking Tyson to give up his livelihood until the trial is akin to
    > punishing him before his guilt/innocence is determined.
    
    No, denying him his livelihood by force of law or decree would be akin 
    to punishing him.  "Asking" him to do so, for his own good and for the
    good of others, is no such thing.  And, just as a point of fact, there
    are all sorts of instances where persons are indeed legally denied 
    privileges and/or rights before they go to trial to determine their 
    actual innocence or guilt, although I agree that I don't think any of 
    them apply to Tyson's case.
    
    glenn
    

    	Lots of people "want" Mike Tyson to be guilty whether he is
    or isn't.
    
    				/Don

    Innocent Untill Proven Guilty...Right.  Rape is one of the most
    controversal subject or law Ive ever seen.  I had 4 friends arrested
    for rape...Brought to Jail, there parents all called and informed
    of what was going on only to have the girl come clean after 4hrs that
    she had lied...WHY YOU ASK, BECAUSE HER FATHER WAS GOING TO HIT HER
    FOR BEING LATE. 
    
    When you charged with rape I think most people auto matically assume
    Guilty Untill Proven Innocent and Mike Tyson cancelling his fight and
    changins the course of his life at all just proves this.  This comes
    down to her word, his word and an investigation.  Why they have to use
    all the bad press is beyond me.  They should put gag orders on all
    rape cases let the detectives do there job that they get paid for and
    keep the press out of the jury's minds.
    
    Either way Guily or Innocent Tyson has already been branded....
    								MaB

"This is the story of Mike Tyson,
 the man the authorities came to blame, 
 for somethin' that he never done,
 but one time, he woulda been (again)
 da Champion of da World...."

Question I wanna have answered, is:  Is Bob Dylan gonna write another
song?????

'Saw

    re .374  /Don
    
    You are absolutely correct when you say lots of people want Tyson
    to be guilty whether he is or not....the people probably hoping
    the most are the top 20 or so rated heavyweight "contenders" or 
    so that are stiffs and they know that Mike would hammer them into
    oblivion.....he'll be found not guilty after his trial but right
    now the guy that sgonna pay the price is Holyfield because Mike is
    gonna go into that figh like its the last thing in his life.
    
    
    Tom

    Just for sh!ts and giggles, let's assume Tyson gets convicted and
    sentenced to umpteen years in jail.  Jail would be the safest place for
    Tyson.  He'd probably, and I emphasize "probably", keep his hands to
    himself, he wouldn't be able to squander his millions very easily, and,
    knowing how Tyson fights, what con in his right mind is going to try to
    violate Tyson's sphincter??????
    
    
    JaKe
    

 Depends upon what prison they send him to Jake if he's convicted. If he
 goes to a state pen with murders and lifers there's bound to be somebody
 there who will try. Given who he is and his money he'd probably end up in
 one of this plush white collar federal pens with no bars and co-ed visitation
 rights etc...

 What I'm dying to know is two of the charges stem from oral sex? Who was
 the donor and who was the acceptor of it???

 mike

>> What I'm dying to know is two of the charges stem from oral sex? Who was
>> the donor and who was the acceptor of it???

 mike

He was the donor.

We know because there was a picture of him in the paper today and he's got an
anchovy/pizza-like affliction around his mouf.  Seems she gets around.

HTH

;*)

rick

	Anybody see Sliwa's (founder of the Guardian Angels) bimbo sister 
on Crossfire last night?  All she kept screaming was "forget the 
Constitution", "Tyson shouldn't fight" and "Jake LaMotta syndrome"  What an 
absolute joke.

				/Don

    I've waited 24 hours, in order to be able to say this with some level
    of sanity.  Specifically to Cowboy, but to any of the rest of you out
    there who agree with the sentiment he expressed.......
    
    <flame on low simmer>
    
    Wearing provocative clothing does not justify rape.
    
    Flirting does not justify rape.
    
    Being intoxicated, drugged, or otherwise non compus mentis does not
    justify rape.
    
    Going to someone's room, without the *explicit* statement that it is
    for purposes of sexual relations, does not justify rape.
    
    Being aroused - on the part of either or both parties - does not
    justify rape.  
    
    
    When someone says "No, I don't want this to go any further" THAT IS
    EXACTLY WHAT IS MEANT.  Both sides then need to step back, cool off,
    and stop.
    
    Rape isn't a crime where you assess percentages of blame between victim
    and perpetrator any more than you do for burglary or murder or having
    your pocket picked.
    
    <end flame>
    
    
    There are members of this conference who have been victims of this
    crime.  I believe that the statistic is that 1 in 10 of the women you 
    meet have been victims of this crime.  It isn't an occasion for joking 
    and teasing among the victims.  Not all rapes leave visible bruises, 
    not all rapes are prosecutable.  But all rapes leave the victim 
    wondering what they did to deserve this treatment.  When it has been 
    acquaintance or date rape the victim can have major league trouble 
    figuring out who can be trusted and building new loving relationships.
    
    I am willing to wait until the trial is over before saying whether or
    not Mike Tyson is guilty of this rape.  I know that there are
    occasions when women "cry rape" when the crime didn't actually occur.
    The consequences of false accusation of *any* crime are terrible, and
    the accused always carries a social stigma as a result.  But the 
    statistics are heavily in favor of the crime having been committed 
    when the victim says it has.  
    
    My personal response to whether or not the fight should go on is
    similar to that of many.  Mike can fight.  I don't have to pay to watch
    it, or pay any attention to it.  I would encourage those who feel that
    the fight should not go on to "just say no" to supporting it in any
    way.
    
    A&W   

    
    A&W  -  Amen.

    	Agreed Allison, but saying Tyson should not fight is presupposing
    his guilt.  What if he really didn't do it?  If someone accused
    me of a crime and I didn't do it I sure as hell wouldn't act like
    I should be ashamed of something.
    
    				/Don

    A&W, the reason no one commented on Cowboy's note is that it was so
    asinine it didn't warrant any response.
    
    Good note.
    
    Mark.

    I never said that the rape was justified.
    
    My point was that it is possible that she was trying to get
    Tyson to do something that she could make money on.
    
    Since Tyson hasn't asked me to go rapin' with him lately I
    wasn't there to know the real scoop.  Since most noters,
    before my note, had seemed to assumed Tyson's guilt I expressed
    my opinion that some young women are actually smart enough
    and ambitious enough to try to make a buck with their charm.
    
    I agree with you that rape is a serious crime and that
    the guilty should be treated accordingly, but, even Mike
    Tyson deserved his day in court.  It's very possible that
    this young lady is not as sweet and innocent as some
    people care to believe.
    
    Now, chillout woman
    
    Cowboy
    

    
    
    
    
    
    re .389 ...
    
    Yes, I suppose it is possible that she had ulterior financial
    motives...Anything is possible, as they say.
    
    But what kind of irks me is the assumption by many people (people in
    general) that the alleged victim *did* have a plan, a motive, a scheme,
    etc.   Would you be so quick to assume that if a stranger's home was
    burglarized that the home owner had an insurance scam in mind? 
    Probably not, but in cases of alleged rape, people are way too quick
    to, as A&W said, divide blame percentage-wise between the alleged
    victim and alleged attacker.  That's one of the several documented
    reasons why after years of work and education to change the perception, 
    rape is still so prevalent and is still not handled, prosecuted or
    punished like other violent crimes.
    
    And it bums me out, Cowboy, to see you end your note with, "Now
    chillout woman" because that tells me how seriously you took A&W's
    note.  8-(  
    
    I feel better now.
    
    Cath
    
    

    According to VNS, Tyson's trial has been scheduled to start on Jan 27,
    1992.

    > And it bums me out, Cowboy, to see you end your note with, "Now
    > chillout woman" because that tells me how seriously you took A&W's
    > note.  8-(  
    
    > I feel better now.
    
    > Cath
    
    It's not that I didn't take her note seriously...her points and
    views are hard to argue with.  What got me hot is that A&W is
    saying that I believe that the woman had the (alledged) rape
    coming to her.  I never implied that at all.  In my original
    note I was expressing that its possible that Tyson was also
    a victim--a victim of a wild hair idea by a smart woman that
    knows how to take advantage of a man who is known to do dumb
    acts.  I never said that if he raped her that it was exuseable.
    
    Cowboy

    Seems to me that there are just as many people who want to see Tyson
    found innocent ("TYSON IS INNOCENT", etc.) as who supposedly want to
    see him guilty (apparently just because they don't think the fight
    should go on).  The fact of the matter is, I know absolutely nothing
    about the woman in question, but I know *plenty* about Mike Tyson, some
    of which is more than just media creation.  That would certainly
    disqualify me from sitting in a jury box, but it can't erase my
    suspicions.  Only the verdict will tell, but if you're totally
    unconcerned by this case (and *some* of the responses *have* gone
    beyond the issue of legal rights into something a bit more cavalier) 
    just because the judge's gavel hasn't come down yet, well...
    
    glenn
    

    Cowboy -
    
    The reply of yours that sent me off the deep end implied to me that the
    18-year-old victim was somehow to blame for enticing the much older
    alleged perpetrator into raping her.  That she may end up being able to
    profit financially from what happened to her is, to me, an unfortunate
    result of the way we in the US are willing to wallow in the misfortunes
    of our fellows.  I doubt that such financial profit will be sufficient
    to compensate for the probable nightmares, flashbacks, insomnia,
    inability to trust, difficulty in establishing healthy sexual and
    inter-personal relations, and physical injuries which are the
    anticipated results of rape.
    
    It's a sensitive issue for the victims.  What I'm asking is that at
    least as much sympathy and good will be extended to the victim as to
    the alleged assailant.
    
    A&W

    This issure is a heck of a lot bigger than Mike Tyson, Cowboy and A&W.
    It has to do with our culture. It has to do with all the jokes that
    went around after the incident at Big Dan's in New Bedford. After
    hearing the initial news report, how many times did all of you hear,
    "Well, if she went into that place, she got what she deserved."? How
    many of you agreed?
    
    How many times have we heard from those around us lately that the most
    important thing in the William Kennedy Smith trial is the Kennedy
    family -OR- the woman's past sexual history?
    
    The prevailing attitude, sadly, seems to focus on the credibility of
    the alleged victim and the circumstances surrounding the alleged rape.
    
    "Well, she went with a Kennedy, saw Ted with his pants down - she MUST
    have known that penetration was inevitable." Come on.....
    
    Rich
    

    It is my opinoin that in as much as Tyson hasn't been found guilty of
    any crime, at this time, that there is no reason to stop the fight.  
    The fight should go on.  It's incomprehensible to me, to stop the 
    fight because Tyson MIGHT be guilty of rape.  I'm no Tyson fan, in
    fact, he's been an embarrasment, however, at this time, he's guilty of
    no crime.  The fight goes on.
    
    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn

    > of our fellows.  I doubt that such financial profit will be sufficient
    > to compensate for the probable nightmares, flashbacks, insomnia,
    > inability to trust, difficulty in establishing healthy sexual and
    > inter-personal relations, and physical injuries which are the
    > anticipated results of rape.
    
    You're describing the possible (or probable) effects of a rape of an
    unwilling participant.  I agree that this is a serious crime but
    that the (alleged) Tyson crime may not fit this category.  For all
    we know she may have quietly said no then enjoyed it then later
    decided to turn him in.  Or maybe she was terrified and badly hurt.
    This girl could have just as easily been an angel or a tramp.
    
    Cowboy

    > hearing the initial news report, how many times did all of you hear,
    > "Well, if she went into that place, she got what she deserved."? How
    > many of you agreed?
    
    When you walk into a lion's den you have to accept the outcome. 
    Tyson's more like an animal than a logical-thinking human, IMO.
    If she went with him on her own free will then she has to accept
    that she screwed up.  Of course Tyson is also responsible for
    whatever he may done too.  There are all kinds of people and
    the ones like Tyson (seems to be) are the ones you avoid like
    the plague.  Hopefully, this is something young girls will
    learn before its too late.
    
    This may be where "She got what she deserved" thinking may have
    come from.  Or that she wasn't scared of him and just trying
    to get what she wanted.
    
    Cowboy
    

    Cowboy,
    
    >>    When you walk into a lion's den you have to accept the outcome. 
    
    I could not disagree with you more!!!!!!!!!!! It's like Clark Griswald
    desrved to have his hub caps stolen because he took the wrong turn in
    East St. Louis. Or Richard Poleet (don't know if you recall this guy..
    he was stoned to death on Blue Hill Ave some years back) suffering
    because he was driving home through the wrong side of town.
    
    But, there seems to be a double standard. The woman in the Big Dan's
    case alleged she went in to buy cigarettes. Yet so many of us
    IMMEDIATELT assume that because it's a mens' bar in a seedy part of
    town, she was "asking" for it.
    
    I thought we all have civil rights. But, in your analagy, Doc Midnight
    would deserve to get tarred and feathered if he stopped off in Forsythe
    County, Georgia for directions. "He must've known it was unsafe for
    black people there so he deserved what he got". 
    
    Come on. 
    
    In the Tyson case, I think you have made your mind up. Because you have
    demonstrated, through your thought process which is now documented
    here, that women ask for rape ...
    
    >>Tyson's more like an animal than a logical-thinking human, IMO.
    >>If she went with him on her own free will then she has to accept
    >>that she screwed up.
    
    The man is a world celebrity. He shook hands with Jesse Jackson at an
    event to honor black women. She goes with him of her own free will
    trusting the heavyweight champion of the world. What is so unbelievable
    about that? This woman doesn't participate in this notefile. Probably
    never saw a fight. Probably doesn't read the Enquirer and probably
    didn't see 20/20. But, because YOU say Tyson is scum and sub-human,
    then we are supposed to concede that this 18 year old girl should have
    known better.
    
    I submit, Cowboy, that with your analagy, every victim of every crime
    "got what they deserved".
    
    Rich
    

    That's not what I'm saying.  It's when someone KNOWS that the choice
    they made is a dangerous one but they go ahead with it anyway.  For
    instance, when someone takes up mountain climbing they KNOW they are
    risking themselves.  Most of us don't want them to get injured but
    if they end up killing themselves falling off the mountain we feel
    sad to hear it.  We also should realize that he probably knew the
    risks involved and must have felt it was worth the chance.  
    
    In this case:
    > But, there seems to be a double standard. The woman in the Big Dan's
    > case alleged she went in to buy cigarettes. Yet so many of us
    > IMMEDIATELT assume that because it's a mens' bar in a seedy part of
    > town, she was "asking" for it.
    
    This lady must have known what kind of town she was in and knew the
    risks involved.  That's sad news and I'm not saying that she had it
    coming.  It's just A FACT OF LIFE today.  She shouldn't have been
    in that area of town if she didn't want to take the risks.  There's
    is always gonna be people that will take advantage of others...killers,
    rapers, thiefs, etc. and they should be taken care of.  This is our
    REALITY.  Motorcycle riders that don't wear helmets are taking a risk.
    If they're in a wreck and get their heads bashed in by a driver that's
    in a hurry then who's fault is it that they got killed?  I'm saying
    it's the driver of the car but to a smaller degree it's also the fault
    of the bike rider for taking more risks than he had to by not wearing
    the helmet.  If he had worn it he may have lived through it.
    
    We caint live through life ignoring the risks involved, especially
    when there are others that are liable to do us in, and not accept
    some of the responsibilty of the result.
    
    Cowboy
    
      

    
    Cowboy, you're making the *huge* assumption that we can always (or in 
    this case that the girl did) know the risks involved with a particular
    action.  That's probably the case in a very small portion of all
    criminal cases, including rape.
    
    glenn
    

re: .398

Yes, if (this is a BIG if) the events were as they have been portrayed so far 
in the news media, perhaps the young woman mad a mistake to go to Tyson's room.
That, however, is absolutly no excuse for his alleged behavior.  We have all made
mistakes larger than that when we were 19 years old, and she may have become a
victim of the most degrading, injurious crime there is.  If Tyson is guilty, he
alone should bear the brunt of the circumstances.  Unfortunatly, this is not
how we treat vicims of rape in our society.

Case in point:  While the news media has been stingy or has refrained from using
the victim's name, that paragon of virtue, Don King, was in front of the press
blabbing her name out left and right.  Somebody should muzzle that guy.

As far as the fight goes, however, I feel it should go on, since Tyson is 
innocent until proven guilty, and none of the precidents to deny a person their
constitutional rights before their trial seem to apply.  When I was in high 
school, there was a kid in the class who was arraigned for manslaughter, and 
they let him finnish school while awaiting trial!

=Bob=

>    When you walk into a lion's den you have to accept the outcome. 
 
    So...  let me see if I got this right.  I walk into some hole-
    in-the-wall bar, for whatever reason.  Doesn't matter what I'm
    wearing or if I happen to make eye contact with anyone, just as
    I said 30 or so notes ago (see Mark, someone did reply to his
    first note).  I'm SOL and must accept any consequences for my
    being there.  

    Is that what you meant?  If so, heaven help your wife or any
    other female, in your family, who happens to wander into a
    situation as mentioned above.
 
    

    This whole situation smacks of a huge problem in the way we approach
    and regard rape in this country. 
    
    Point: It is true that some women voluntarily submit to the advances of
    	   a man, have a great "session" and then have after thoughts the
    	   next day. They then accuse the guy of rape.
    
    	Morale: This is wrong and grossly unfair to the male.
    
    Point: It is true that a woman wearing suggestive clothing can walk
    	   into an area packed with men and, because she was in the place,
    	   judges and juries have exonerated the men from gang rape.
    
    	Morale: I find this shocking and deplorable.
    
    Summary: It seems that the majority of people in this country react to
    rape initially as a female induced issue - that the male was lured into
    committing a crime. Why else would Willie Smith's lawyers try to dig up
    the past sexual conduct of the woman in Florida? Yet too few read or
    hear of a rape and think, "What a heinous act. The poor victim. But let
    me first hear all the evidence before I pass judgement on the
    defendant."
    
    Cowboy, as far as Big Dan's goes, that was a gang rape. Multiple
    entries. Cheering. If you think this woman deserved that, I feel badly
    for you.
    
    Rich
    

    
    King makes me sick.  He's using this incident to run around with his
    usual truth-justice-American-way spiel!  That's okay when he's out to
    sell his latest WWF-style fixed bout, but this is in extremely poor
    taste...
    
    glenn
    

    Just one othjer example of our basic privilege of human rights and I'll
    quit my rambling.
    
    Let's say your a guy and you have a wife and teenage kid. Let's say you
    tell your wife that your going down to Little Larry's, an all mens' bar
    down on the strip, to watch MNF. Well, your wife goes to the video
    store and rents Gone With The Wind, gets into her PJ's and settles down
    with some popcorn and Pepsi. Your teenage kid goes to the library to
    study.
    
    At 10:00 your wife gets a call from the cops saying your teenage kid
    was in a bad car wreck. The cop wants you at the hospital. Your wife is
    frantic. She tries to call the bar but gets a busy signal - over and
    over.
    
    So she drives down to the strip, in her PJ's, delirious and disheveled.
    Bur she needs you now to comfort her and to let you know about your
    kid.
    
    As she approaches the area where the bars are, she is so emotional that
    she can't recall whether you were at Little Larrys or Big Marys. She
    knows Big Marys is a place for losers, druggies and hookers. She can't
    recall, due to her dazed state, whether you went to Little Larrys or
    Big Marys.
    
    Little did she know that you always go to Big Marys to watch MNF so's
    you can watch the show on the tables at half time.
    
    Your wife goes into Little Larrys, doesn't see you and gets more
    frantic. She asks the bartender if he's seen you and he says, "Cowboy
    comes in here every night except Monday. He's over at Big Marys."
    
    Now, your wife knows about Big Marys. OK? But she needs to find you.
    She goes in and you are in the can. A bunch of druggies sees your
    attractive wife in PJ's, disheveled and shaking. These male druggies
    assume she knows where she is so they promptly rip her PJ's off and
    commence a gang rape. You come out of the can, see your wife being
    violated and scold her for coming into Big Marys because "You should've
    known what would happen."
    
    Now do you see where I'm coming from?
    
    Rich
    
    

    > Cowboy, as far as Big Dan's goes, that was a gang rape. Multiple
    > entries. Cheering. If you think this woman deserved that, I feel badly
    > for you.
    
    I hadn't seen this story so didn't know the details but certainly
    feel the same way as you (and most everyone else) about the punishment
    of the men who are guilty--and I wonder how you can still label me as
    being unsympathetic towards the woman.  It's just that IF she knew
    that this place was full of that kind of people she made a stupid
    mistake.  I'm not saying she was guilty of any crime or that she
    was asking for it.  There have been cases that the 'victim' in
    traffic accidents were given tickets tho'.  Like when someone speeds
    through a red light and another driver, not noticing him, starts
    across the intersection and gets hit.  I think that the judgment
    against the 'victim' is that he 'could have seen the car' if he
    had been paying better attention.  Of course, the differences are
    that a woman has a right to go to any bar that she wants and the
    driver has NO right to drive carelessly.
    
    Cowboy
    

    I've said what I wanted to say.  Rich is doing a great job of following
    up on the issue (my thanks to him).  My thanks also to those who
    understood and supported my point.
    
    At this point, I'm going to stop.  I don't think that there is anything
    to be gained by continuing, it will only engender hard feelings.
    
    And in the Big Dan case, I don't believe any of the rapists were found
    guilty.  The jury decided that the woman had been "asking for it"
    because she was in the bar, dancing to the music on the juke box, and
    drunk.
    
    A&W

    >     frantic. She asks the bartender if he's seen you and he says, "Cowboy
    > comes in here every night except Monday. He's over at Big Marys."
    
    > Now, your wife knows about Big Marys. OK? But she needs to find you.
    > She goes in and you are in the can. A bunch of druggies sees your
    > attractive wife in PJ's, disheveled and shaking. These male druggies
    > assume she knows where she is so they promptly rip her PJ's off and
    > commence a gang rape. You come out of the can, see your wife being
    > violated and scold her for coming into Big Marys because "You should've
    > known what would happen."
    
    > Now do you see where I'm coming from?
    
    > Rich
    
    No, not really.  I wouldn't have been in a place with that type
    of people, and if for some reason I had been I definitely wouldn't
    have scolded my wife for being there.  Hopefully, my wife could
    have reacted more rationally and called the police or maybe a
    neighbor to help her look for me in sleezy bars.
    
    Of course the loosers in the bar should get the maximum penalty
    for their crimes and the wife is only guilty of poor judgment,
    which is not a crime in this case.
    
    
    
    > And in the Big Dan case, I don't believe any of the rapists were found
    > guilty.  The jury decided that the woman had been "asking for it"
    > because she was in the bar, dancing to the music on the juke box, and
    > drunk.
    
    > A&W
    
    With the small amount of info that I have my verdict is probably the
    same as yours.  If we sat in the jury seats and heard the testimony
    we BOTH may have called it the way the jury did.   I'm sorry that
    you must think that I'm blaming the woman in rapes but that far
    from the truth.  
    
    Cowboy
    Cowboy
    

 I thought they were convicted in the Big Dan case Alison but received very
 light sentences and reductions in some of the charges...

    Well, I've been wrong before, and could be now......
    
    A&W

    >  If this is such a 'fact of life' and we know its wrong; why
    >  isn't something done to rectify it?

    >  Jo  
    
    I agree that its wrong but its still a 'fact of life'.
    
    Cowboy
    

    re . Cowboy 
    
    You know, Tyson isn't always a nice guy. In fact, he might need to
    serve some hard time to get his act together.
    
    But to call him an animal ?
    
    You're crossing a line Cowboy - and it's thinking like that that has
    made this on sick world to live in ....
    
    Doc

    re .402
    
    (Bob Mac)
    
    On Don King : Muzzling isn't what I had in mind. I would have kicked
    the crap out him fro blabbing her name like that. In fact, if Tyson is
    found gulity, I would sue him fro attempting to defame her character.
    
    Sigh ....

    re a few back....
    
    The line questioning whether Tyson, with all his money, could have found 
    someone willing [for sex].... misses the point that sex and rape have
    NOTHING to do with each other. A case in point is break-in rapes, where
    the woman is sleeping in bed. She obvoisly was asking for it because
    she was wearing a sheer nightgown! About date rape, if the man wanted
    sex, he at least stands an eventual chance, since the woman DID agree
    to go out with him initially. It's the "more flies with honey syndrome"
    
    Until law enforcement, media and society treat rape as a crime of violence 
    and abuse of power and NOT a sex crime we will continue to blur the 
    distinctions. Defence lawyers will continue to exploit the "She was asking 
    for it" angle. 
    
    Anyone see the 20/20 program on ABC lasted night? 
    
    Tom

    Tom,
    
    I saw the 20/20 program last night.  I found the story of the woman
    who turned her own son in amazing.  The strength that woman must
    have had to do such a thing!  The woman who, for 60(!) years, was
    abused by her husband, killed him, and is now serving 15 to life
    is a travesty of justice.
    
    I find myself wondering that if men weren't the majority of the
    lawmakers if the laws would be tougher for offenders of both
    abuse and rape.  (I'm also going to state upront that women who
    abused their husbands should and would be subject to the same
    laws.) 
    
    I also know that there is a distinct difference between sex and rape.
    
    Cowboy,
    
    If this is a fact of life, why doesn't someone do something to change
    it?  All too often we won't get involved until it touches us in our
    own personal lives....when its too late.  As a society I fear that we
    tend to react instead of working things in a pro-active manner.
    
    Jo

    >  <<< Note 43.415 by LUNER::BROOKS "If I can fill the unforgiving minute..." >>>

    > re . Cowboy 
    
    > You know, Tyson isn't always a nice guy. In fact, he might need to
    > serve some hard time to get his act together.
    
    > But to call him an animal ?
    
    > You're crossing a line Cowboy - and it's thinking like that that has
    > made this on sick world to live in ....
    
    > Doc
    
    I'm not making this world sick by expressing my opinion.  I'm
    expressing my opinion about a sick world.  Tyson has problems
    that need to be addressed.  There are too many others with
    similar problems and sugar-coating it won't make it go away.
    
    From what news reports on Tyson's activities calling him an 'animal'
    is not that far off, IMO.  Sure, he's a human but he obviously lacks
    the ability (or desire) to control himself.  The result is
    'animal-like' acts.  This kind of person reminds me of a shark.  They
    appear to be driven by instincts to survive and not affected by the
    final results of the damage they do.  No remorse, guilt, sorrow.
    Now, don't assume that I'm saying Tyson is no better than a fish.
    He's still human and has the ability to live in our society if he
    wants to.  I just have doubts that he ever will.  If he's guilty
    and spends a few years in prison he'll be forgotten by his 'friends'
    and business partners.  His worth to the boxing investors will be
    nill.  Who's gonna care what happens to him and see that he comes
    out a better person?  Sad but how else do you think it'll happen?
    
    Cowboy

    This is serious, and something I've alwasy wondered.  I saw a little of
    the 20/20 program, and have seemn others like it.  My wife has worked
    at a battered women's shelter.  One thing I've never understood - and
    no one has been able to answer, is why would anyone, women or man, stay
    in a relationship that was abusive?  Take that woman in the program -
    60 years.  
    
    Its something that has always baffled me.  I am NOT stating that such
    people deserve what they get or anything like that (I want to make sure
    THAT IS CLEAR TO EVERYONE!)   
    
    I'm simply wondering out loud.  I've asked this question many times -
    to different people, including counselors - and no one seems to have a
    solid answer.
    
    Sometimes I wonder if there is something in our genetic pool that
    causes this behavior.  
    
    And the legal system has too many loopholes for repeat abusers.  My
    aunt and cousins lived through the hell of an abusive husband.  I never
    understood why she went back to him numerous times, before she finally
    heeded everyone advice and got out of the marriage.  
    
    JD
    

    JD -
    
    This is a question which is answered at length in IKE22::WOMANNOTES-V3. 
    Not likely to be a popular spot for this crowd.  :-)
    
    The simpler answer.  Most of those abused have been raised to believe
    that they have less value than the men around them.  The common belief
    is that they are unable to support themselves and their children, that
    if they are unmarried they are socially unacceptable.  In many cases,
    they firmly believe that they did something which justifies the abuse. 
    If they will only stop doing the "awful thing" which the abuser uses as
    an excuse for beating them - whether it is mis-aligned cans and towels
    as in the recent movie, or meals that aren't prepared "right", or not
    having the right pair of socks - then the abuse will stop.  Because
    their abuser loves them - he says so.  (Many times, after an abusive
    episode, the abuser will shower the victim with gifts in an attempt to
    "make up" for the beating.)
    
    So, you have victims who believe they are nothing without a man, that
    they can't take care of themselves, that they really are loved, and
    that the abuse is brought on themselves because they do something
    wrong.  It can take a lot to break through that to see that the person
    you thought was wonderful and loves you isn't and doesn't.  Add to that
    the natural human tendency to prefer the devil you know to the
    uncertainty of the one you don't, and leaving becomes very difficult.
    
    I'm glad that the women you know had the support to leave, and are no
    longer subject to the abuse.
    
    Alison

>    the natural human tendency to prefer the devil you know to the
>    uncertainty of the one you don't, and leaving becomes very difficult.
    
    There is no easy anwer but I've always believed that this perhaps
    comes the closest to answering why anyone would continue to put up 
    with a variety of unpleasant situations.
    
    

There's another reason, which is simple, and cuts with no bias across 
gender lines:

	To many people, it's *easier* and less scary to stay where
	you are then to be alone and trying to find something new.

Human beings like secure surroundings.  How many prisoners in the penal
system have said they've broken the law just to get back in.  A lot
of them, because it's something the know and are secure with.

A lot of men stay in bad relationships for the same reason.  In fact I 
personally think men are worse at that than women...


Inertia isn't just a big factor in physics alone....

'Saw

Another factor in abusive relationships is upbringing.  I don't recall the 
figures, but many victims of abuse came from homes were their mother was abused.
Likewise, many abusive men come from homes were their father abused their 
mothers.  

You do have to admire women brave enough to leave, particularly those with 
children.  You also have to wonder how many don't have the strength, and hope 
they can find it.

=Bob=

    First Off I dont think there's any such Thing as THE WOMAN WAS ASKING
    FOR IT, UNLESS SHE VERBALLY IN DEED ASKS FOR IT WHE WAS NOT ASKING FOR
    IT.  Skimpy Clothes, Winking at you talking somewhat sexy, is this
    asking for it ? NO....But there are some cases where its too close to
    call.  About 3 years ago 5 guys in the marlboro area (20yr olds on avg)
    were all arested and charged with rape.  It came out in the trial that
    the girl (17 or 18) was drunk went to one of the guys houses with the
    other 4 guys and willing danced for them topless, they then gang raped
    her, was she asking for it... No, but they agreed to plead guilty on
    lesser charges.  Now she in no why asked to have sex, but lets use some
    common sense you dont dance half naked in front of 5 drunk guys !!
    STUPID...
    
    Now again on the lines of not asking for it, Im a White Male and I
    would never walk thru Harlom at night with a t-shirt that said 
    
    		WHITE POWER  
    
    or some other racist statement, but if I did and somebody Kicked the
    shit out of me or maybe even killed me what would your first reaction
    be.....
    
    		STUPID.....!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    							M_Air_Brooks

    Guys, if you get the chance, catch the Chris Eubanks v Micheal Watson
    fight that took place yesterday. One of the best fights I have ever
    seen.
    
    Tony

    	Watson had a blood clot removed from his brain yesterday.

	I'm not sure this is the appropriate note to put this in but
Pernell "Sweet Pea" Whiticker is fighting Jorge Paez on HBO in October.  I 
know lots of people hate Paez, but I think he's funny and entertaining. Sadly 
I look for Sweet Pea to put an end to the comic relief.  Also last night on 
USA they had Bonecrusher Smith fighting some stiff who didn't belong there. 
But before the fight they had all the heavyweights rate the top 5.  Some of 
it was classic.  Foreman's top 5 didn't have Tyson or Holyfield and Larry
Holmes actually rated himself 4th!  Lou Duva had a triple bypass done 
yesterday, but unless the s.o.b. is dead he'll be there November 8th.

				/Don

       I hope 'Pea' knocks Paez on his haircut! I forgot all about that
    fight lasted night. I was planning to watch it too. Got hypnotized by
    the 4 hour Craftsman tool extravaganza on QVC.
                                        Denny

    Tyson vs Holyfield
    
    Tyson originally started out  as the favorite in this contest. Don't
    ask me why. Then came the rape charges out of Indy. Now a lot of people
    are saying that the edge leans even further in Tyson's favor. According
    to them, he is going to be real angry. I do not buy it. Maybe come 
    November I'll be back here to eat these words but...........
    
    I don't think Tyson can keep his concentration up through all of this.
    He faces some serious hard time and that hanging over his head will
    present too much concern and distraction for him to concentrate on
    the job ahead. 
    
    Don King is a close advisor.  At this point in both his personal and
    professional life, it shows how messed up this guy really is.
    
    He hasn't been anywhere close to his past form since his knockout
    in Tokyo. Then it was alledgedly just a brief lapse in his training
    and concentration that caught up to him.  If he could not adjust to
    that, how is he going to adjust to his current delima?
    
    Holyfield in the meantime is probably right on course. He is
    probably getting ready and doing all the things he needs to do.
    His people are preparing him menatlly and physically for the 
    fight of his life. He might even be taking the approach that this 
    is a conflict of good vs evil thereby playing his opponent's 
    problems to one of his strong suits.
    
    I just don't picture Mike Tyson having the where_with_all to pull
    this thing out.   
    
    BoB
    
    
    
      

    
    And to think just a few years back I was at the VFW, I mean Club 54 in
    New York... no, it was the Playboy Mansion.  Yeah, that's it.  And then
    I was approached by Elizabeth Tayl.... no, I think is was Christina
    Applesomething...  Morgan Fairchild.  Yeah, that's the one.  And then
    while we were dancing she grabs my bum...yeah, with both hands.  If I
    knew then what I know now, I could've sued her for every penny.  Yeah,
    that would've been the ticket....
    
    
    Dickstah
    

       I heard on the radio this AM that Mighty Mike Tyson was seen
    entering a Las Vegas hospital lasted night with what appeared to be a
    side or rib injury. Anyone heard anything?
                                   Denny

    Yes Denny, apparently George Foreman was at his training site
    and some one forgot to feed George his feeding bag... Some one mention
    waht a set of ribs that Mike had so George bite him!
    
    REK

    Well its only 28 days until the Tyson VS Holyfield Extravaganzaaa
    
    So just how much is Pay Per View going to charge and will the fight
    actually take place......
    
    								MaB

    	The figure I heard was $49.95 (i.e. fifty dollars).  

    Macho Camacho was arrested on driving with a spended license.
    Macho sttracked the attention of the Flo state police while
    he was riving his 1988 Ferrari (black) 35 mph on interstate 75.
    The police reported that the trooper pulled him over after noticing
    that a passenger was sitting on the driver's lap. The trooper said
    Macho was trying to do the Wild thing........
    
    REK

Ray "Boom Boom" Mancini picked Holyfield on the LT show yesterday, 
stating that he felt Holyfield was a better mental fighter than Tyson.


And I have one question:  I thought that the Heavyweight Belt was unified.
Who's this heavyweight champ that's gonna fight the Bozo from Rocky V????

deen to wonk(tm),
'Saw

    
    >>Macho Camacho was arrested on driving with a spended license.
    >>Macho sttracked the attention of the Flo state police while
    >>he was riving his 1988 Ferrari (black) 35 mph on interstate 75.
    >>The police reported that the trooper pulled him over after noticing
    >>that a passenger was sitting on the driver's lap. The trooper said
    >>Macho was trying to do the Wild thing........
    
    I heard that Camacho's defense is that he was teaching her to drive a
    stick!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    
    (8^0*
    
    JaKe
    

    'Saw, I think you're talking about Ray Mercer, he's the WBO chump.
    People pay even less attention to the WBO than to the other 3.
                                           Denny

>    'Saw, I think you're talking about Ray Mercer, he's the WBO chump.
>    People pay even less attention to the WBO than to the other 3.


Oh, I see.  Well, then, let's just start our own Boxing Organization.
We'll call it the DFBO (Denny and Frank Boxing Organization) and we'll
just name /Don as our heavyweight champ, for the job he did on that
drunk dude...

Whatta ya say?

I'll start the paperwork for the PPV contract right now......


'Saw

       When do we git our first 'sanctioning fee'? 
                                       Denny

       Biggie tonight on USA. Carl 'da Troof' Williams vs one Mike Evans. 
                                  Denny

 And so now the Tyson-Holyfield fight is postponed because Iron Mike has a
 rib injury (did I read that right ???).
 
 But the big story is that the fight will definitely be rescheduled so
 that it will take place at least a week before Tyson has to appear in
 court to answer the rape charges stemming from his outrageous behavior at
 the most recent Miss Black America pageant.
 
 Geez, can boxing get any more ludicrous than this ???   Seems as though
 King and Duva et al are pretty sure Mike will have to do time so they want
 to put the fight together at all costs before his trial so that they can
 squeeze as much cash as they possibly can outta this one.
 
 Boxing gets sadder by the minute.    But ya gotta admit it is fascinating.
 
 Bob Hunt

       I read in the paper yesterday that Frontline on PBS is doing a show
    on Don King this week. Supposedly it isn't very flattering. I think
    it's on Tuesday around these parts. /Don told me it's an obvious smear
    campaign.
                                     Denny  =8^o
      

  and King wants to reschedule for Jan 20th because it just happens to be
  Martin LUTHER KING DAY....

 mike

       So, how come no report on the big Larry Holmes fight on USA Tues.
    night? Didn't ANYBODY watch it?
                                               Denny

    Yeah!  And FWIW, in case ya didn't know, Vinny Pazienza (sp?),
    World Champion mumbleWeight from Providence, Rhode Island
    is in the hospital with a possible broken neck which was the result of
    an automobile accident.  He swerved into oncoming traffic to avoid
    a rear ender, climbed the divider and BANG!  He could have been
    squashed by an oncoming tractor trailer but THAT driver went up onto a
    sidewalk (learned to drive in NYC?) and avoided hitting him.
    
    X-Rays didn't look good, MRI scan was inconclusive.  They gotta wait
    for the swelling to go down.
    
    He was not wearing seatbelts.
    
    Kev
    

    
    Holmes fought another sack of potatoes and too bad about Vinnie.
    I wish him well, his title defense has been cancelled for January 10th,
    and I recall correctly the Bibe could take or leave Vinnie.
    
    
    

    Geez, Vinnie's had atough year. First he lost all his money in the
    RI credit union collapse and now this. Hope he comes out OK
    
    MikeL
    

    	I would like to see Holmes and Foreman square off.  I think
    the Nevada Boxing Commission would sanction the fight if each has
    a cardiolgist in their corner.
    
    				/Don

    re-.1  Holmes .vs. Foreman
    
    They'd probably cart in a portable Richter scale in case somebocy hit
    the ground.
    
    JaKe
    

 Holmes .vs. Foreman

Translation..

 Burger King vs. McDonalds


HTH

    
    Evander Holyfield stops Bert Cooper (who ?) in the seventh round,
    by TKO (stopped by the referee), in Atlanta last night.
    
    It was a slugfest ! Holyfield suffered his first ever "knockdown",
    he was tagged hard by a couple of short right hands. He did not
    actually go down on the canvas, the ref decided he had used the
    ropes to stay up, and hence gave him a standing 8 count in the
    3rd round. The champ definitely looked wounded.
    
    Cooper went down in the 1st round (twice ?), but recovered gamely.
    But he took some major leather from Holyfield in the 6th and 7th
    rounds, where Evander finally discovered his uppercut, and Cooper
    looked like a bobbing-head doll. Why Cooper did not go down is a
    mystery ...
    
    Holyfield got another break in the 5th (?) round, when his glove
    became torn. The fight was stopped to change the glove, and Cooper
    was ordered to a neutral corner - unattended.
    
    Really a pretty entertaining battle.
    
    - acp

    Copper did'nt go down because Evander 'real meal' cannot punch. I was
    pulling for smokin Bert the whole fight. Was entertaining though.
    

    	If Evander can't put away a tomato can like Cooper he better
    hope Tyson goes to jail.
    
    				/Don

    Wrong slasher ... Cooper showed a good chin agaist a hard-hitting Bowe
    as well. If Tyson got hit the way both men got hit Sat., he'd be
    tasting mucho canvas.
    
    The thing about Holyfield that worries me is his tendancy to forget
    to box the minute he gets tagged. He wants to start slugging and
    trading shots in the middle of the ring. He did it with Foreman, and he
    did it with Cooper. If he does it with Tyson on a consistent basis,
    he'll be in trouble.
    
    Doc

    	Wrong Doc.  If Tyson ever hits Holyfield someone somewhere will
    collect on some insurance policy.  I think Mills Lane stopped the
    fight for the same reason the first Ruddock/Tyson fight was stopped
    by Steele.  Millions of dollars were seen flying out the window
    and nobody wanted to take any chances.  At least in 'rasslin you
    know it's fixed.
    
    				/Don

    Re.459
    
     Wrong. Smokin Bert was taking to many shots and Holyfield was landing
    just about everything. Just because Real Meal hits lke a twinkie and
    could'nt put him away does'nt mean the fight should not be stopped. 
    
    I believe Millis did an excellent job and made an excellent call, when
    the time came. Bert was on his feet by pure instinct and desire, not
    even throwing. Good fight, good call, now hopefully some real
    competition will surface and 'the champ' will have a defense against a
    formidable opponent. Or will he duck and hide ?
    
    
     

    I disagree...  The fight was won by Evander "the Salemander".
    Good battle though !
    
    Big Game
    
    BOXING IS FIXED, and Don King is mostly to blame !

    I think the ref made the rigth decision.  Apparently so did some one in
    Cooper's corner who was overheard thanking the ref for stopping the
    fight when he did.

I disagree about Holyfield throwing twinkies.

Cooper did the same thing against Mercer, probably one of the hardest
punchers going.  They couldn't put him down.

Holyfield should have been boxing.  I think the fact that he was in
Hotlanta made him forget what he does best and made him try to put
him away for the home crowd.


Mills did a good job calling it.  I myself was sitting there saying
"If he does that much more to Cooper he'll break his neck"...


Holyfield will have to BOX against Tyson....


'Saw

    The Boston Globe account of the fight said that Holyfield landed 21(!)
    unanswered punches just before the ref stopped it.  Sounds to me like
    it was indeed time for Cooper to call it a night.
    
    
    py

    
    I think some people out there are not seeing what I am trying to say,
    Here we have an UNRANKED fighter given a weeks notice to fight for the
    HW championship of the world. Is this Rocky 1 ? Is Holyfield is so
    trained, so skilled, so wonderful, he should have made mincemeat out of
    this so called tomato can, but instead he comes in, forgets to box, use
    the jab and gets tagged. He must be the laughingstock of the boxing
    world right now. 1st Iron Mike withdraws, then Diamani, O.K. quick guys
    get a bum in here. enter Smokin Bert (who I thought was a Joe Frazier
    clone) He rock the champion, and 'Real Meal' is jangin on the ropes
    seeing stars, My imediate value of Evander went right out the window.
    
    
    Sorry folks, I just don't buy it when a supposed bum can tag and almost
    beat the champ. Champ for now but not for long, he can only duck ranked
    fighters for so long. He has to fight a Bowe, Ruddock, Mercer and win
    big to regain some respect. I see L Holmes taking evander the distance
    if the fight were next month.        If a GF EH rematch comes before
    any real contender I'll barf.
    
    
                                                                  

    Well, at first I was upset that it was stopped, but looking back, it
    was a good decision. Holyfield had hit Cooper with at least 15 straight
    punches, and Cooper couldn't fire back. Evander had muscled him into a
    corner and could have hurt him badly. Cooper said after the fight he
    did want anyone to think taht he would quit, and would not have gone
    down early.
    
    Mills might have saved Cooper from serious injury.
    
    Doc

 -   I see L Holmes taking evander the distance if the fight were next 
 -   month.

Then you nust be seeing the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, 
Harvey, Sam Wheat, and a quick end to the recession if you see Larry Holmes 
lasting much longer than the pre-fight intros against a much younger and 
infinitely quicker Holyfield.

I watched the Cooper fight and it seems pretty obvious that Holyfield took 
him too lightly in the early rounds and also had little understanding of 
how to fight against a *classic* Philly heavyweight.    Cooper had the 
look-n-feel of Joe Frazier and it took Holyfield a good 4 or 5 rounds to 
finally figure it out and stick him with the uppercut.

Once Holyfield shook out his cobwebs and made the adjustments, it was 
over.  Cooper deserves a lot of credit for hanging in there but he was 
over-matched in the end.

I think Holyfield is too "light" to last for a long time as champ like 
Holmes did.   Somebody as fast, as young, but stronger will give him fits.  
Lennox Lewis looked pretty good dispatching a stiff Tyrell Biggs in the 
prelim.   I'd like to see an eventual Holyfield-Lewis bout.   Lewis needs 
more fights like Biggs, though.   He's been just about invisible since his 
Seoul Gold.

Bob Hunt 

    	Lane could've given Cooper a standing eight count like he did
    to Holyfield (and probably saved him) but why risk 100 million dollar
    payday?  First we'll get Tyson/Holyfield I, then Tyson/Holyfield II
    the rematch.  Anything that will jepordize these two events will
    be eliminated.  Meanwhile young promising heavyweights sit and rot
    while a 42 year old MacDonald's addict gets any fight he wants (because
    he ain't a threat to Tyson or Holyfield).
    
    				/Don

    It would have interesting if Holyfield's glove didn't get torn. 
    Holyfield looked like he wouldn't have been able to throw another punch
    for the rest of the round.  The cut glove game him a needed rest.  
    
    I don't think the rule sending Cooper to a neutral corner is fair. 
    Holyfield was able to go to his corner so he could get the glove
    repaired/replaced.  Why should Cooper be penalized?
    
    Of course Cooper reminds you of Joe Frazier.  According to the
    "pregame" show, Cooper studied under Joe for several years.

       Cooper was trained by Frazier until Joe found out Smokin' Bert was
    smokin' (or inhalin') more than he thought. Joe dropped him real quick.
                                   Denny

    re .467
    
    
    Sam Wheat ?
    
    Ha. I'm rooolin' Bob.
    
    Doc

    
    	There was no "standing 8" as I recall. Holyfield's was ruled a
    knockdown cause the ropes held him up. The question was asked to Lane.
    He had no other choice than to stop it.

       If there was no standing 8 why did he stop his count at 8? Why did
    he count at all if Holyfield never left his feet? Why not say it was a
    knockdown and continue right away? I think Slasher's right on this one.
                                  Denny

    Because when you get knocked down, the ref MUST give you a eight count
    before he resumes the fight - even if you jump up right away.

        The Miss Black USA Pageant has dropped all charges against Mike Tyson. 
    The guy in charge of the event said that it was determined that several
    of the women who lodged complaints about Tyson were lying.

       Does this mean he isn't a "serial buttock fondler" anymore?
                                         Denny

>       Does this mean he isn't a "serial buttock fondler" anymore?
>                                         Denny

Perhaps only in his heart, Denny, only in his heart.....

>    Whaddya mean, "only in his heart"?  Whadabout in his testakals?  
>    
>    HTH.  :-)
    
hahahahahahahahahaaaaa 

I'd forgotten all about that!


'Saw    

He's still got rape charges pending against him....

Mike is certainly no saint...


Good cartoon in the paper today...


Mother Goose & Grimm where mother goose is telling grimmy that she got him all
the chia pets for xmas. A chia dog, a chia cat, a chia tree and then she pulls
one out and grimm says "What's that?".....Mother goose says...a chia Don King!!

yuck, yuck..

John 

	I was reading some of the boxing columns in the Sunday rags and it 
seems like Don King is at it again.  First he forces HBO to cancel their 
"Night of the Young Heavyweights" by signing up every possible opponent for 
the "Young Heavyweights" to a two fight promotional contract, then he gets 
Los Bandidos (WBC) to strip Evander of their belt if he fights anyone but 
Mike Tyson and Duva knuckles under the pressure, cancelling negotiations 
with Foreman.  Genius, pure genius.  He's as sly as a fox.

    	Somebody wants to bring Ray Mancini out of retirement again.
    This guy comes back more than Jason!  Unless he fights some stiff
    Ray will get clobbered.
    
				/Don

      I read it'll be Mancini-Haugen.
                                         Denny

        
    If Mike Tyson goes to jail it may well be the end of Don King (at least 
    for a while).  No Tyson, no clout...
    
    glenn
    

    MAncini-HAugen, Ugg.... 2 has beens. Why people would pay to see this
    garbage is beyond me. I'll take my 6 dollar ticket for next month
    Golden Gloves up in Lowell and see more action in one night than King
    can give me for 2 years. All at a bargain basement price.
    
    Gotta love the Gloves competition, three rounds of sheer energy.
    
    -TH

 Glenn, he was around before Tyson and he'll be around long after Tyson is 
 gone. King's got the dough and the connection, and if that don't work he'll
 kick your butt just like he did to Iron Mike.

 mike

    	He's a genius, not a fauxgenius like that heelbilly that coaches
    the Falcons.
    
    				/Don

    
    Hi, I'm a sports fan and I need the nswer to a Quiz question urgently.
    urgent = next 2 hours.  If possible I'd appreciate a mail message.
    

    I need to know which boxer was known as the Gaueston Giant.
    
    I know he boxed Jess Willard for the World title and having checked
    references only 3 poeple boxed Willard, Dempsey, Frank Moran and Jack
    Johnson.  Dempsey was the Manassa Mauler so it's either Frank Moran or
    Jack Johnson.  Johnson was from Texas (anyone know where Gaueston is?)
    and wsn't that tall so I'm inclined to guess Moran (I know nothing
    about him) but I'd appreciate any info.
    
    thanks inadvance,
    
    Gary.

    Are you sure it's not Gavelston, as in Gavelston, Texas?
    
    John

    
    Re -1, Yes.  It is Gaueston.
    
    Gary.

    
    The last note may have been premature.  It could have been a misprint. 
    Was Jack Johnson the Galviston Giant?  A friend seems to think so.
    
    Gary.

    Of course, Gavelston didn't look right.  It's Galveston.  Silly me.
    
    Ninj

    
    Further to my request I did some more research.  Jack Johnson was born
    in Galveston in Texas.  It desn't mention a nickname for him however it
    would seem likely that "Gaueston" was a misprint.
    
    I needed the answer to enter a Sports Quiz.  I put down Jack Johnson
    as my answer.
    
    thanks for your help.
    
    Gary.

    	That Glenwood Brown/Meldrick Taylor fight on HBO Saturday night
    on HBO was pretty good.  It's a shame that neither he nor Sweet
    Pea will get a fight with Chavez.
    
    				/Don

>    on HBO was pretty good.  It's a shame that neither he nor Sweet
>    Pea will get a fight with Chavez.
>    
>    				/Don
    
       Obviously the genius of DonKing at work. He controls JCC.
                                       Denny  =8^o

    Why don't you guys check out REPAIR::BOXING.
    
    Tony

    Heard this on the radio over lunch hour.  In the rape trial against
    Mike Tyson, he's not contesting the fact that he had sex with the
    plaintiff.  He's claiming that she consented, in fact she visited his
    room at 2 in the morning for the encounter.
    
    The plaintiff is claiming rape and injury.  Mike, and his defense, is
    claiming that only injury caused was from his oversized penis.  I
    wonder if he'll be required to present evidence in any form?
    
    Actually a lawyer following the case states that this line of defense
    is more common than one would think.  Typically photographs or expert
    testimony is presented to substantiate the size.
    
    Where's Robin Givens when you need her?
                                       

Wow.  

That's weird, wild stuff.  I did not know that....


Johnny Carson

       I also heard Mighty Mike won't take the stand in his own defense.
    Prob'ly a wise move.
                                    Denny

>       I also heard Mighty Mike won't take the stand in his own defense.
>    Prob'ly a wise move.
 
 but with that sweet little voice of his the jury might think he's gaybait
 and not into women.

 ;^)

 seriously though if it was me I'd want to testify and prove I had nothing to
 hide...

 mike

Perhaps they are worried that he might lose his temper under
cross-examination.  It happens to the calmest of people, and from what 
I understand, Mike is not always the calmest of people....

'Saw

    
    The P-name comes from an "ad" I heard on the radio this morning.
    To paraphrase:
    
    "Instead of breaded fried chicken, try Tyson's newest line of
    battered chicken products.  There's battered chicks, and for the
    gourmet, battered robin.  It's lip-smackin' good [sound of 3-stooges
    type face slap].  And don't forget to try our fresh oh-so-squeezable
    brown buns..."
    
    
    Dickstah
    

    	I thought the Globe's Ron Borges was doing a hatchet job on
    Mike Tyson, until I picked up a New York Post yesterday.  Phew!  
    They're so bad they make Borges look like an unbiased reporter.
    
    				/Don

    Well, did Mike lay his "goods" on the evidence table yet? :-)
    
    I didn't quite pay much attention to last nights 11 o'clock sports
    because Lisa Marie was much more interesting, but I did catch someone
    commenting that enought evidence has been subjected to convict Tyson. 
    But, of course, it'll be up to the jury...
    
    Also heard this morning that the trial is off indefinitely due to a
    fire in the hotel that the jurors are sequestered in.  Anyone seen Don
    King lately?
    
    Hawk
    

       The fire supposedly started in the hotel lounge.
                                  Denny

    As most of you know, I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on tee-vee.
    I've also managed to miss most of the reports about the trial,
    thankfully but from what I've heard, I think Mr. Mike's goin
    up to the Big House for a long time. (convicted).
    However, folks with lotsa $$$ seem to have a way of avoiding
    the Big House so who knows????  out for 7-8 years on appeal?
    
    Kev
    

	Will justice be served?  Considering that Tyson has already been 
found guilty by the majority of the boxing reporters (ESPN's being the 
exception) prior to the trial, that's a good question.  Whether or not you 
like the guy or his manager, he does deserve better than the hatchet job 
done on him by the press.  The only good thing about Ron Borges' pre-trial
conviction article was that he shattered the myth that Tyson was this sweet 
innocent until he fell into the hands of Don King.  Cus Damato let him get 
away with just about anything because he thought Tyson would be a champ for 
him.  Cus wasn't this crusty old boxing trainer who wanted to save a kid 
from the Brooklyn streets, he was a manipulative old codger who wanted one 
more champion before he died.

				/Don

>	Will justice be served?  

No.   Gene Tunney has already ruled that Hulk Hogan will face Rik Flair
for the crown.  Justice is pissed, and I didn't get Rowdy Roddy's reaction...



hth,
'Saw

                   
    If Tyson is found guilty, and goes to the "big house", he'll spend many
    many years fighting some REAL heavyweights to keep his back side pristine.
    
    
    JaKe
    

 Jake, you know little of jail life my friend. Tyson won't have to worry
 about his backside at all. With his money he'll own the joint. Special
 favors are always for sale in the can...

 mike

    IF hes guilty he will get off, if hes innocent he will go to jail.
    I have a bad feeling that most of the jurors in this case decided
    before the trial started... Have fun in the big house mike.
    
    								MaB

The thing that appears to be evident to me is that Tyson is not being
tried so much on this one incident, as he is on his entire past.
That bodes bad for Mike.


From what I've seen and heard in interviews and such, Tyson doesn't strike
me as being the most mature individual in the world.


At any rate, the jury will be questioned today on whether or not the
fire has affected their ability to continue as a jury.

Unfortunately, two firefighters were killed in putting out the blaze.



'Saw

    
     I wonder,  Can you draw a comparison between Mike Tyson and William
    Kennedy Smith ???  Interesting how the young White nephew of a powerful
    political family walks instantly.  Even more interesting will be the
    out come of Tyson Trial.  If ya Don't convict Smith,  you surely can't
    coinvict Iron Mike...  BTW, FWIW, I think there both GUILTY as hell
    and should go up to river.  Anyone that rapes a women should have
    there pecker whacked off (With a Hatchet)
    
    BG

    The accuser in this case is a far, far more credible witness than the
    accuser in the Smith trial.  She has given far more consistent
    testimony and to me, is far more believable.  There is an extreme
    contrast between the believablity of Tyson and her (she comes across as
    intelligent and articulate, he probably won't and that unfortunately
    makes for a far more credible witness), there is an extreme contrast
    between the believablity of Tyson and Smith (same reason) and there was
    some contrast in the believablity of Smith and his accuser.  There was
    a poor case against Smith to begin with and I believe the Palm Beach
    District Attorneys Office brought an unwinnable case to trial in order
    to show they weren't bending over backwards to show favoritism to the
    Kennedy family - and I'm no fan of the Kennedys, ever since Jack and
    Bobby died.
    
    There is some evidence that shows that folks who are articulate and
    present themselves well in public and before an audience come across as
    more believable and credible which is a strike the poorly educated have
    against them before walking into a courtroom.  I think this, plus
    Tyson's past, plus his associates are all going to work against him and
    work to convict him.
    
    John

    
     Some good points, John...  I guess what I was trying to get at 
    was heres 2 guys with Lots O' Bucks.  One has already gotten off
    on a similar charge.  What will happen to the other.  Is race 
    going to be a factor.  Surely it would have been had the women 
    Tyson raped been white.  And what about Tysons connections Vs
    the connections of the Kennedy family.  Surely the Kennedys are 
    much better connected in the legal circles than Tyson is.  I'm
    not making a judgement (Except that I feel both were guility)
    I'm only asking "What If"
    
    BG

    Big Game,
    
    I don't think the Kennedy connections played much of a factor in
    getting Smith off the hook.  Like I said, I feel the case was brought
    to trial only because the Palm Beach DA's Office wanted to show that
    they weren't bending over backwards to favor the Kennedys - it wasn't a
    good case to begin with.  The accuser wasn't credible, either in her
    testimony or her past history.  The prosecuting attorney didn't do a
    good job.  Smith himself had a reasonably good reputation going into
    the trial.
    
    In the Tyson case, the accuser is a great witness.  She's intelligent,
    articulate and above all, has a much cleaner past reputation than the
    accuser in the Smith trial.  That puts the winnability of the Tyson
    case for the prosecution far, far ahead of the Smith case right off the
    bat.  Then, the Indianapolis DA's Office has hired an outside attorney
    to prosecute the case and he is doing a great job (the better attorneys
    tend to go to private practice instead of being on the prosecution side
    because the money is better) trying the case.  The case itself is a
    much cleaner case in terms of physical evidence than the Smith trial
    was.
    
    Then, you have Tyson himself.  A boxer, not intelligent, not
    articulate, a history of being a street thug and the highly publicized
    marriage to Robin Givens.  Everything is working against Tyson in this
    case - but the biggest thing going against Tyson is the accuser
    herself.  I think race would only be a factor if Tyson's accuser was
    white, or Smith's accuser was black.
    
    Please note - I'm not saying everything is right, nor am I necessarily
    agreeing with the reality.
    
    John
    
    PS - the only thing that really ticks me off about this case is the
    great support being given to Tyson by black leaders with none being
    given to the accused

 Call me Ultra Cynical if you will ... but I don't see any way Tyson is
 going to lose this thing.   He makes way too much quick money for way too
 many people.
 
 That hotel fire is as suspicious as it gets.   Wouldn't surprise me one
 bit if arson is the cause ... In fact, I'm expecting it.
 
 *If* he gets convicted, he appeals immediately and fights Holyfield within
 6 months.   Boxing is completely out of control.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  Interesting to reflect on something Larry Holmes said about 5 years
 ago ... "In five years, Tyson will either be dead or in jail."

    Like JohnH so eloquently and directly wrote, it wasn't money,
    connections and the so-called Kennedy family power that got William
    Smith acquited.  The judicial system worked in this case.  His million
    dollar lawyer presented nothing more than a comman person's lawyer or
    even a public defender would've presented.  What's so hard to
    understand about this, and that the man was most probably innocent, as
    found by the jury?
    
    In Tyson's case, again like JohnH said, there are huge differences
    between his case and Smith's.  Huge.  Credibility being the key
    difference, not money.  However, in this case, Tyson's money and
    influences (the `power' of Don King) can, and probably will, negate
    justice being served.  And, before the Slasher gets bent outta shape
    :-) by my implying that Tyson's guilty, the preceding was said using
    the *assumption* that he really did commit the crime that he's accused
    of....  JMO.
    
    Hawk

    	When the woman in Florida cried rape was the FBI called in to
    gather evidence?  Did the prosecutor's office go get a proven hired
    gun to try the case?  
    
    				/Don

    /don,
    
    seriously, what's your point?
    
    Kev
    

    No.
    
    I think the Smith trial is the main reason that the state of Indiana
    chose to bring in a 'hired gun' to prosecute!!!  After the local DA
    totaly screwed up in Florida.....launching what seemed to me to be a
    personal attack/vendetta against Smith.......Indiana wanted no such
    errors by whomever was put in charge of this case!!!  It was generally
    felt that regardless of Smith's guilt OR INNOCENCE, the *PROSECUTOR LOST
    THE CASE*, Smith didn't win it!!!
    
    Thus, I personally believe that it is NOT a question of race, but
    rather a question of celebrity!!  One court erred in the prosecution of
    a celebrity....and the other learned from the previous' mistake!!!
    
    
    Nelly

    Hawk...  There are differences between these cases, I' won't 
    argue that.  Apples & Oranges is a bit much though.  Maybe 
    Oranges and Tangeriens (sp?).  Tyson is a celeb.  So is Smith
    by virture of his name.  Tyson has Big Bucks,  so does Smith.
    Tyson is a  know womenizer,  So is Smith.  Tysons trial has turned
    into a media circus,  so was Smiths.  There are a lot of similarities
    it the 2 cases.   I would bet that no matter how bad it looks for 
    Tyson he won't spend a day in Jail, just like Smith !!
    
    BG

    I think Tyson is going to be convicted.  I'm not sure if he'll get
    sentenced to the full sixty years (the judge threw out 3 years on a
    forced confinement charge, buying the defense's assertion that the
    prosecution hadn't proved its case).  I haven't seen any errors yet
    that the defense can use to appeal the verdict.
    
    As far as the money Tyson makes goes - there is very little if any
    professional boxing that takes place in Indiana, to my knowledge. 
    Therefore, there is little financial incentive for the jury to acquit
    him.  These jurors are being locked up tight.  Even during the fire,
    they were kept completely separate from everyone and the bailiffs told
    everyone who came near that is was a sequestered jury and to leave
    these folks alone.
    
    John 

    	The point is Kev that merely bringing Smith to trial was enough.
    Putting him behind bars would've made some enemies.  Putting Tyson
    behind bars is going to make a star out of someone and that coattail
    will have plenty of room for everyone involved.  I find it hard
    to believe that having Don King as an enemy can hurt you politically,
    but having a Kennedy as an enemy can.  King could care less because
    other than Holyfield he has promotional rights to just about every
    heavyweight and Evander is a faux champ waiting to fall.
    
    				/Don

    
     Guess we'll just have to wait & see what happens...  I still say he
    walks...  Just like William Kennedy Smith.  An I still say he's guilty,
    Just like William Kennedy Smith.
    
    
    P.s.  I just heard a rumor that my sister is Pregnant... Interesting,
         I'm in the family and I here this rumor at work...  Wonder if it's
         true.  (she's married but she don't work at DEC)  I'm confused !

    BG, 
    
    Like George Washington, I cannot tell a lie......
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    	--dan'l did it!!!!!!!!
    
    I remain, 
    honest,
    Kev
    

    	Holmes vs. Mercer tonight on PPV.  I can't see anybody paying
    for this.  The Hinsdale Race Track is offering it for free.  Mercer
    ought to put a merciful end to Holmes "comeback".
    
    				/Don

    
    The winner gets Capt. bigmac himeself, ol George. These are truly sad
    times for the heavywieght division.
    
    -TH

                                                                        
    Let's not forget that Mike Tyson has one of the pre-eminent trial
    lawyers in the country, Vincent Fuller, in his own corner.  Fuller was 
    the brains behind Edward Bennett Williams for many years and is the
    guy who won John Hinckley his acquittal on an insanity plea and also
    successfully defended Don King himself in his battles with the IRS.
    We're not talking about a mismatch here where Tyson has been sold short 
    on legal representation.
    
> The thing that appears to be evident to me is that Tyson is not being
> tried so much on this one incident, as he is on his entire past.
> That bodes bad for Mike.
    
    I disagree completely.  Tyson has won all of the challenges on the
    admissibility of evidence of his past behavior, excepting his treatment
    of some of the other pageant contestants during the week in question
    (Tyson's behavior at the pageant has actually been used by the defense 
    as proof of sufficient warning to the alleged victim of what Tyson was 
    after, which coming in his own defense is a pretty sick commentary on
    Tyson when you really think about it).  The judge even ruled out the 
    testimony of Tyson's 44-year-old female chaffeur that the night before 
    the alleged rape he succeeded in drawing her up to his room with a 
    similar story about needing to pick up a bodyguard and then attempted
    to molest her!  I was kind of surprised that this testimony, while
    indeed circumstantial, wasn't admitted simply because of the timing
    with the actual alleged rape and the similarity of the descriptions of
    Tyson's MO in both instances.
    
    No matter what's been said or written in the press, in this trial
    (unlike, say, the Pam Smart case) the jury has been completely 
    sequestered and by all appearances hasn't been tampered with, so the
    even-handedness of the media coverage is irrelevant.  I don't know if 
    Tyson will be convicted or not, but considering the stature of the 
    representation on both sides and the care that's been taken with the 
    jury, I think it's about as fair a criminal trial as can be had with 
    the jury system...
    
    glenn
        

    
    Great entertaining fight lasted Friday.  Was great to see old man 
    Larry give that young buck a lickin'.  Is Holmes-Foreman next?
    
    Dickstah
    

    Defense rested its testimony yesterday.  Prosecution called a couple of
    rebuttal witnesses.  Closing arguments take place today and the jury
    should have the case later today.
    
    The defense didn't do anywhere near as good a job as the prosecution. 
    I think the prosecution has proven its case but it's not completely
    open and shut.  I think the odds are slightly in favor of the
    prosecution, but I'm not sure by how much.
    
    I don't think the defense will have many grounds for an appeal if he is
    convicted (though they can certainly try) since the judge tended to
    favor the defense in the case.
    
    John

    
    Forget about the Holmes-Mercer charade (which said more about Mercer
    than it does for Holmes); did anyone else catch the Toney-Tiberi fight
    that was on ABC Saturday afternoon?  Now *that* was boxing corruption
    at its lowest, most refined state.  All-Nobody Dave Tiberi pretty much 
    handled champion and middleweight meal ticket James Toney from start to 
    finish but inevitably lost the "tough" split decision.  I knew it was 
    coming, too, because we've seen it so many times before.  I think it's 
    in the standard television contract: no name fighter left standing at 
    the final bell will be permitted to lose in such lowly fashion as in
    a Saturday-afternoon tune-up that no one is paying to see.
    
    The post-fight wrapup was the best of all.  ABC sent its ringside guy
    down to talk to the fighters and, in front of both of them, he stated
    that the decision was one of the most outrageous he'd ever seen.  This
    caused Toney to launch into a tirade on live TV where he claimed that
    boxing analysts like ABC's are fools who see a different fight that the
    one going on and are full of "bulls*#&".  The whole scene was a riot.
    Has boxing completely and totally ceased to meet the requirements to
    qualify as "sport"?  I think so, but for the purposes of killing an
    hour before dinner on a winter afternoon, this spectacle was pretty 
    entertaining (much more so than pro wrasslin', simply for its
    unflinching, unashamed gall and a little more spontaneity).  I do think 
    I've given up on ever again plunking money down to watch these supposed 
    sporting events, though.
    
    On the Tyson trial, the outcome now seems as uncertain as ever.  I
    can't follow the conflicting testimony and make any sense of it any
    more.  The jury might feel the same and acquit Tyson amidst all the
    confusion.  We've got several witnesses (including Tyson) making major
    alterations to the testimony they gave to the grand jury, and many
    unanswered questions.  Where's Tyson's bodyguard, the one that both
    Tyson and his limousine chaffeur claim was with Tyson and his accuser
    both in the car and up through the time immediately preceding the
    alleged rape?  Why won't the defense bring him to the stand?  Why is 
    the accuser's roommate, who in front of the grand jury stated that 
    Tyson made no suggestive or lewd suggestions in front of her and the 
    accuser, now claiming the opposite?  I can only conclude that these 
    pageant contestants are not credible witnesses, for either side, 
    considering all the discrepancies...     
    
    glenn
    

    
    From what I read of the trial, I don't think the prosecution's case
    is strong enough to convict based on the evidence I've read. There's
    certainly no "smoking gun", if you will, and still sounds like his
    word against her word.  Like the Olympics, the judgement as to who
    wins is based on a lot of style points, regardless of whether
    the truth is fully substantiated or not.  I look for a hung jury
    and no decision.
    
    Dickstah
    

    question - 
    
    Is grand jury testimony presented in-full at the trial?  How much
    does the jury know about the g_j intictment?
    
    My knowledge of the goings_on of the trial is gained from the
    newspapers and imo, Mike's statements about "nope, she agreed"
    are in direct conflict with the prosecution.  I guess it all
    depends on who you believe.  "Reasonable Doubt" might just
    be enough to get Mike off the hook (imo).
    
    Kev
    

    re .519

    I agree with you on one thing John - the support the black community
    has given Mike is way out of line. On one hand, I expect it - we as a
    people have had enough real conspiracies against our heros that nobody
    believed until it was too late (MLK, Malcolm X, Fred Hampton, ect) - and
    who is to say that Iron Mike isn't being railroaded ?

    Yet, it's hard to say this is a racial/racist issue when the alleged 
    VICTIM is also an African-American.

    And I say this even though at the very least - she is guilty of
    **GROSS** stupidity, judging by her testimony - it was a tragic case of
    something I've seen much too often - but that is a whole different
    rathole.

    Finally, I have a HUGE problem with the defense's counter-attack ....

    "Mike was out for just sex ..... Mike hurt her accidentally because he
    has a big penis ... his behavior was that of a pig, so the girl should
    have had no illusions ..."

    Great fellas, just keep playing into every damned sexual stereotype of
    the black male. :-(

    Signed,

    Disgusted

  >  "Mike was out for just sex ..... Mike hurt her accidentally because he
  >  has a big penis ... his behavior was that of a pig, so the girl should
  >  have had no illusions ..."
  >
  >  Great fellas, just keep playing into every damned sexual stereotype of
  >  the black male. :-(
    
    Doc, you are much too much paranoid.  Relax, stop being always so much
    on the defensive, and enjoy life a little and without so much stress...
    
    Hawk
    

    
    Hawk, I don't think Doc was being defensive.  The things he mentioned
    are exactly the tact that the *defense*, i.e. Tyson himself, has taken 
    in an attempt to win acquittal.  I didn't read Doc's comments as 
    critical of a white judicial system that attempts to display blacks as
    animals in order to prosecute them or anything like that, at least not 
    in this case.  Ironically, it's been exactly the opposite.  The 
    prosecution is arguing that the girl was naive and that Mike Tyson
    didn't demonstrate crude and sexually threatening behavior towards her, 
    and the defense is arguing that Tyson was behaving like the stereotypical 
    animal so there's no way that what he did to her could be construed as 
    "rape". 
    
    I think the entire issue is a double-edged sword with regard to Tyson.
    On the one hand, we should be careful not to reinforce stereotypes, on
    the other, there's little doubt in my mind that Tyson fits the
    description of the aggressive, violent, abusive person (yes, sexually 
    abusive, even if he's not a rapist).  I don't know how you could look 
    at the overwhelming trail of evidence that the man has left in his life 
    and not come away with that conclusion.  It's clear that someone should
    stand up to him and demand rehabilitation, but it's equally clear that
    no one in the boxing community is going to do that.
    
    glenn
    

 Spike Lee built an entire movie around the sexual stereotypes of the black
 male (and the white woman).   There are times when the stereotypes are
 often reinforced by the subjects themselves and this event-trial is yet
 another one.
 
 Tyson's defense is simply trying anything they possibly can to counter the
 woman's story.   This includes blaming her for getting run over by a truck
 that had "truck" written all over it.
 
 Hard to tell who to believe in this one.  I still think he'll walk.  Too
 easy to be cynical on this one.
 
 Bob Hunt

    re .538
    
    Thanks Glenn. That is *exactly* the point I was raising. I wasn't
    trashing anyone except Tyson's defense team, Don King (they must have
    had his approval), and Tyson.
    
    If *that* is a defense, I'd rather see him say "I'm gulity of being
    horny, crude, and of degrading a young woman - I am sorry.", and throw
    himself on the mercy of the court.
    
    Pride sure as hell goeth before a fall ....

	The Holmes/Mercer fight was in fact pretty good as was the 
DeWitt/Fraizer undercard fight.  Old man Holmes was feeling pretty frisky 
taunting Mercer saying "I ain't Tommy Morrison" to the camera, and I felt 
he did win the fight.  Mercer could've had a first round knockout if he 
could put more than just one or two punches together at the same time, but 
Larry survived that first round and suckered Mercer into the corner all 
night long.  Since TVKO is owned by HBO I think they'll show the replay of 
this fight in an attempt to hype the Foreman/Holmes PPV fight.  After the 
decision was rendered the announcer asked "What weighs a quarter of a ton 
and is 85 years old?", "The upcoming Holmes/Foreman fight".  8^)

				/Don

    From what I've heard of the Tyson trial,  if Mike gets off (so to
    speak) then the american justice system is an in-justice for all.
    
    BG

The Jury is back.

Mike Tyson has been found:


   ggg     u   u   iiiii   l     ttttt  y    y
  g   g    u   u     i     l       t     y  y
   gggg    u   u     i     l       t      yy
      g    u   u     i     l       t      y
  g   g    u   u     i     l       t     y
   ggg      uuu    iiiii   lllll   t    y
                                                      



JaKe
 

    I just heard that former heavyweight boxing champion Mike Tyson
    was found guilty of rape. I realize there are some of you out
    there that proubably feel that I shouldn't waste a note talking
    about Mike Tyson for what he has been found guilty of. I just
    wanted to give my feelings about the situation. 
    
    I realize that the crime Mike Tyson has been convicted of is
    a terrible thing. If I could I would like to put that a side
    just for a bit.
    
    I am 27 years old and growing up I was always told what great
    fighters, Rocky Marciano, Frazier and Ali were. After watching
    Mike Tyson fight I feel the same way about him. I will never 
    forget how he could knock people out within a minute or two.
    I just can't figure out why he has had such a tough time 
    dealing with life. He had everything.
    
    For what it's worth I honestly feel that Mike Tyson would have 
    destroyed Evander Hollyfield.
    
    Paul 

    His problems started when he left Rooney and joined up with
    Don King. Since he sided up with King he got a divorce lost
    his title and now he will end up in jail  if he doesn't get his
    appeal. Don King is the kiss of death.
    
    tony
    

     Yes Mike Tyson is a fantastic fighter, yes he could more than likely 
knocked the snot out of any contender (including Holyfield) in the heavyweight
division, and yes he has the brain of a dinosaur!

     The guy screwed up (literally). He couldn't control his urges and now he
will have to pay for it.

     Based on the evidence that I have heard from TV and papers he either:
A) Has the worst Defense lawyer in the business. B)Was mentally incapacitated
at the time and couldn't control himself (yeah, that's the ticket Mike! Plead
insanity!) or C) Just thought he was such a big star that it didn't matter
and he could do with whom he pleased when he pleased.

     There was no way based on the evidence that he was going to get off. The
woman sounded sincere and her story never waivered. Her mother was "extremely"
compelling and must of really won over the jury. There was back up evidence
from most of all of the beauty contestants that he tried or did fondle them.
A torn piece of dress (sequin) that matched what she was wearing that night 
was found in the same room that they were in. The 911 call she made 24 hours
after the rape sounded believable and matched her testimony. And to top it off
Tyson had quite a few holes in his story. He didn't even get what she was
wearing that night correctly.

     It's sad to see this happen. IMO I personally believe he is guilty after
hearing everything. I feel sorry more for the woman than him. He will have to
pay but she will have to live with that memory the rest of her life. Mike Tyson
had a great future ahead of him and that has all gone to pieces. There is a
remote chance he will get probation but I don't think so. If he was to get
probation there would be quite an uproar!

     So it looks like your off to jail Mike. Hopefully you will get your head
straightened out. At least he won't be near temptation and have the chance of
contracting the HIV virus by some acquaintance he might have picked up for the
night. But then again, there's always the "back door" at the jail! :^)

                                                       Night Flier    ~~v~~

Yeah.

I hear they're talking a probably 6-9 years for a sentence, although
the max on each charge is 20.


Just goes to show you that if you wanna be a sleaze ball, and you
offer to do someone in a limo, that it might backfire on you.

    Ok what a year in the news... First you get the young William Kennedy
    Smith on rape charges.  The Plaintiff gets the worst prosecutor in the
    history of trials, kennedy gets the best money can buy and or course
    walks.  Im not old enough to remember any of the kennedy tragedy's and
    explotations, but both my parents agreed on one thing....A kennedy will
    never go to jail (for anything).  My feeling here, I think kennedy was
    guilty....
    
    NOw onto the current case. You have a very intelligent young lady. 
    Believe me she knows whats shes doing.  Defendent, a not so intelligent
    black boxer.  She gets a great prosecutor (One of the best i here) he
    again gets a great lawyer, but when I here the name Tyson I think of
    chicken (Unlike when people here the name kennedy)....First thing this
    contry has to do is make it illegal for people to make money off of
    this...It leaves too much to gain for people to lie.  Where talking
    Press, Talkshows, who knows maybe even a book... And then the Made for
    TV Movie.... If she was raped (IF) then Tyson should pay, but if it was
    a tragic experience she will not want to talk about it.  If she was
    raped she will now want to forget about the whole ordeal....
    
    So if she now goes on with here life, maybe Tyson was guilty but if she
    rides this for all its worth talkshows/book/tv-move Ill say she was
    lying... Only time will tell... I bet she hits the circuit within 2
    weeks.....
    								MaB
    Rich/Powerful/keenedy Walks... Rich/Black/Boxer goes to jail
    This was as predictable as the MVP of the all star game

    -1,
    Air,
    I wouldn't typecast it as stereotypically as you did, i.e., 
    rich white guy gets off, black guy gets the shaft again.
    The jury believed her acvcount and justice was served.
    However, I was listening to a radio talk show this morning on
    the way in and 90 % of the callers were black males who believed
    Tyson got screwed by the "white system", and a black man couldn't
    get a fair trial, the "victim" was a slut and she set him up for
    big money, etc. I was stunned by the overt sexism of the callers
    and the vehemence of their assertions that another black was
    railroaded by the system. Maybe we are all missing something here.
    Any comments?
    
    MikeL
    
    

 Score a victory for justice over cynicism.   I honestly thought he'd walk. 
 But the good people of Indianapolis who sat on that jury weren't impressed
 by his earning power.   Good for them.
 
 Bye-bye, Mike.   You had it all until you fell under Don King's charm.
 
 Bob Hunt

 well it seems to me there's enough conflicting evidence to get an appeal.
 wether he can win an appeal or not who knows? Whatever the sentence Tyson
 will be eligible for parole after serving 1/3 of his time. So if he get's
 5 to 10 he could be out in 1 1/2 years. Even if he gets 10-15 that's only 
 3 years time served. I'd also be shocked if all sentences do not run concurent.
 Seems to me that Ali served 3 1/2 years and came back to win the championship 
 twice after that. Heck if does go to jail he'll be out before he's even ready 
 to join the seniors tour with Holmes and Foreman.

 Like Air, I just hope that the accuser keeps her confidentiality for her life-
 time and doesn't play it up for all it's worth. Could be tough for her though
 with the kind of money these sleazeballs will throw in her face to open up.

 mike
 

	First, I'll believe in the "system of justice" when some suit from 
Dow is behind bars.  Second, if I see a book, movie rights and Miss 
Washington's face all over Oprah, Phil etc, I would have some doubts about 
this verdict.  Third, Tyson was involved in these type of "incidents" long 
before King.  Cayton, Jacobs and D'Amato covered them up better.  Fourth, a 
change of venue would've made a big difference.  Do you think a New York 
jury would've acted as favorably towards the prosecution's folksy attorney 
or the victim's crying mother?  [No].  Just my opinions.

				/Don

    MaB,
    I honestly don't know if it's at all possible to separate the racial
    slant from what Tyson did but I think the B/B vs W/W vs B/W rape
    and resulting second guessing about fairness would be inevitable since
    the media will slant whatever they can for the almighty $$$.
    I don't think there is a real basis for comparing the WKS situation to
    Tyson's since there were significant differences in the factual sides
    of of evidence presented.
    I'm real sorry if people see this as another example of the white
    priveledged class vs. the continual attempt to perpetuate the black
    stereotypical myths.  Unfortunately, I don't think I'll ever see in my
    lifetime a radical change despite the efforts of many to look beyond
    a person's skin or heritage. :*(
    Sorry for the rathole.
    
    Kev
    

    The accuser in this case was far more credible than the witness in the
    Smith case.  The prosecuting attorney in this case did a far better job
    than in the Smith case.  The defense attorney in this case did a worse
    job than Smith's lawyer.  The case against Tyson was better than the
    case against Smith.  Tyson's past worked against him.
    
    No case is going to be perfect and in a rape case where what happened
    is so traumatic, there will be inconsistencies between the story
    originally given to the police and what happens on the stand.  In this
    case, the accuser was far more consistent in her stories than the
    accuser in the Smith case.
    
    I also don't think the judge in the Tyson case made many (if any)
    errors that could lead to this case being reversed on appeal, which is
    the only way it can be reversed (judicial error) if my knowledge of the
    legal system is correct.
    
    John

    Ive seen many things in this notesfile alone that makes me feel even
    stronger that he was shafter.... Things like his past worked against
    him... Hes being tried on one event not his past and I hate it when
    they drudge up the past, so if when he gets out of jail hes tried for
    rape again hes automatically guilty (more then likely he get found that
    way).  And its his fault for hooking up with king, his profession, his
    manager, his money and his lifestyle should not have any say in the out
    come of this trial (though it more then likely did).  And again its not
    so much white Vs Black but admitingly people have stated the prosecutor
    in the WKS case sucked and the one in this case was great.  How about
    who is guilty and who is innoncent.  A man going to jail because he had
    a lousy lawer VS a Great Prosecutor is not justice to me.
    
    								MaB

    I must say that I'm glad that the jury found Tyson guilty.  The man
    (and I use that term advisedly - I almost want to call him a male homo
    sapiens) has been a walking time-bomb for a long time.  It was
    inevitable that something of this sort would eventually catch up with
    him.  The victim may have been naive or calculating, a bitch out to get
    what she could from associating with someone famous or a fool who has
    learned a difficult lesson about avoiding situations that put her in
    jeopardy.  Personally, I hope we never find out which.  But the law in
    Indiana states that when either party says "no", no matter how far 
    things have gone, if the other party continues it is rape.
    
    As far as sentencing, the average sentence for rape in this country
    is on the order of 7 years.  If Mike gets the maximum sentence on each
    count, to run concurrently, he'll be out in 7 years, which is longer
    than average, but probably reasonable.  I believe that's a plausable 
    sentence - maximum amount because he's famous and the sentence will 
    send a message to other potential offenders, concurrent so that he gets
    out in a reasonable time frame.
    
    A&W 

     Far be it from me to defend Don King but Don isn't responsible
    for Mike's actions, Mike is. Don King wasn't tried and convicted
    of rape, Mike was. Don King or Cus d'Amato or Jimmy Jacobs never 
    saw anything more in Mike Tyson than a  chance to have a piece of 
    the heavyweight champ. It was never important that Mike be a gentle-
    man only a fighter. Still ultimately only Mike is accountable for his 
    actions because ultimately only Mike is going to do the time. It's
    all too bad. 
    

    re .555
    
    In any rape case, the reputation and past behavior of both the accused
    and the victim are brought into the case.  It cannot be avoided,
    because what is at issue is the credibility of both parties as they
    present their opposing versions of what happened.  Determining "the
    facts" is exactly what the jury is asked to do, and they do it based on
    what they hear and see in the courtroom.  In this particular
    case, the victim was more credible than the accused, and the accused
    has been found guilty.
    
    Justice, unfortunately, is not blind.  That's why the jury must be
    physically present, to see the body language and facial expression of
    all the participants as they attempt to determine, in a relatively calm
    and unemotional atmosphere what happened during an event that had lots
    of emotion and stress as it unfolded.  How the participants present
    themselves has a lot to do with how they are perceived.  The lawyers go
    to some length to have their clients prepared to present themselves
    well.  Finances, unfortunately, play into how much preparation and
    skill will go into the case.  Mike Tyson undoubtedly had what he or Don
    King felt was the best possible representation in this case.  It wasn't
    enough to overcome a strong case by the prosecution.
    
    I feel strongly that Tyson was found guilty based on the facts of this
    case, not prior behavior.  The discussions about hooking up with King,
    his manager, and his lifestyle are not why he was convicted in this
    case, but why he had reached a point where he commited the rape without
    (apparently) realizing that what he was doing was wrong.
    
    A&W

    MaB,
    
    Let's remember a little bity about human faults for a second.  You ask
    why it couldn't be decided strictly on the facts which implies this:
    
    Fact: "He raped me", she claimed
    
    Fact: "No I didn't.", he claimed
    
    Here we have opposite facts being touted as the truth.  One of them, by
    derivative logic has to be false.  Since we're imperfect, there is a
    50% probability that the wrong fact will be selected as truthful.
    
    Is it possible to strip away all the editorial comments associated
    with his past and focus on the single act?  If it were, then on what
    basis could one chose which "fact" to believe?
    
    I believe we are in violent agreement that it would have been much
    nicer if the trial didn't mention color or sterotypical labels and
    focused strictly on the single question but then, there would be (imo)
    insufficent facts to make a logically correct decision.  Both sides of
    the aisle tried their best to build a more credible stable of
    facts/theorems.  Enter human frailty.......
    
    Based upon society's norms, the verdict was decided based on what was
    presented as facts.  You might not like some of what was presented but,
    that's where POPB comes into play, imo.
    
    Kev
    
    

re Air-Brooks:

	Unforunately, "going on the facts" is damn hard in any
	judicial system.

	A jury is going to make up it's mind on the basis of
	many, many things.  No matter how much they are instructed
	to use this or that in their deliberations, so many
	things influence them.

	Like John Hendry has repeatedly said, one side presented
	itself better than the other, and that makes a great
	difference on a jury.

	Hopefully, the process of voir dire will help weed out
	those potential jurors whose mind set and attitudes will
	be detrimental to one's case, but bottom line, you are
	going to have people up there who make decisions based
	not solely on cold hard facts, but on emotions that are
	stirred by the entire environment of the trial itself.

	And maybe that's the way it's supposed to be....



'Saw

    > Ive seen many things in this notesfile alone that makes me feel even
    > stronger that he was shafter.... Things like his past worked against
    > him... Hes being tried on one event not his past and I hate it when
    > they drudge up the pas
    
    I'll repeat: past incidents of sexual harrassment against Tyson were 
    not admissible in this case and were not presented to the jury, just as 
    similar claims against William Kennedy Smith by other women also were 
    not.  Furthermore, it was the *defense's* strategy to present Tyson's
    behavior at the pageant as animalistic.  There was no need for the
    prosecution to even bring up Tyson's history of general sexual
    hostility as the defense decided to lay those tendencies right out on 
    the table for all to see.  That strategy may or may not have made any 
    difference in the outcome.
    
    There were enough gross, unmistakable inconsistencies in the testimony
    of some of the pageant contestants, mostly on behalf of the defense, to 
    lead me to believe that an investigation should be done to determine if
    any witness tampering occurred.  There have already been allegations of 
    pending suits against Tyson/King being bought off (the transformation of 
    the pageant director made famous by the "serial buttocks fondler" remark 
    was the most remarkable of all-- he later spoke out in Tyson's defense,
    now praising Tyson as an important black role model) and King offerings 
    of trips to Cancun for some of the inconvenienced contestants.  I don't 
    think justice can be rendered completely in this case until the
    discrepancies are investigated and resolved, on both sides.  
    
    Would Tyson have been acquitted in another venue, like New York?  
    Irrelevant.  New York is Tyson's home town.  Sure, he could be
    acquitted by a jury selected from the streets of his hometown.  Is that
    justice?  Is there any reason to believe that the jury selected in
    Indianapolis via moderation from both the prosecution and defense was
    naturally predisposed against Tyson?
    
    glenn
    

    Air,
    
    Unfortunately the justice system in this country isn't just about who
    is guilty or innocent.  Justice is doled out unequally depending on who
    the lawyers are - and it's not about influencing the judge, it's
    ability before the court.  The people with more money have the ability
    to hire better lawyers, spend more time gathering evidence, have more
    money to hire technical experts going in and so on.  I think in
    comparing this case to the Smith case, the defense attorneys cancelled
    each other out.
    
    On the prosecuting side, the Marion County DA's Office went out and
    hired someone to present the case for them.  I don't know whether Palm
    Beach County was unable to or chose not to.  Keep in mind that the
    prosecution in any criminal case has a tougher job and should probably
    have the better lawyers but usually doesn't because they don't pay as
    much as the private sector does.  They have less good lawyers to do a more
    difficult job since *THEY HAVE TO PROVE THE CASE* while the defense
    doesn't have to do anything.  Further, the prosecution has to show the
    defense all its evidence while the defense doesn't have to show the
    prosecution anything.  If the defense finds evidence that shows their
    client is guilty, the defense cannot disclose it - it's up to the
    prosecution to find it.  In other words, it's not completely about
    finding the real criminal, but the defense has only one job - get their
    client off.
    
    The prosecution side of the house is as much political as anything
    else.  They have to have a good records of wins and losses in order to
    get re-elected so they only take cases they think they can win, and/or
    may make them look good.  I still believe one reason why the Smith case
    was even prosecuted was so that any potential opposition to that DA in
    the future couldn't use failure to prosecute as a campaign issue, and
    they made that particular prosecuting attorney a scapegoat for blowing
    a case she probably couldn't win going in.
    
    I have no problem with the fact that Tyson got convicted where Smith
    didn't because the prosecuting attorney in Indiana was better.  People
    have different abilities at what they do.  I have a real problem if
    Tyson's past entered into the decision - it shouldn't have but I'm sure
    it did (a criminal past makes someone less believable and if someone
    has a history, it will be brought before the grand jury and it will be
    a factor in deciding whether or not to prosecute).  I have no problem
    with the differing levels of credibility among either of the accusers
    or the defendants - it all comes down to believability and not who's
    really guilty.  That's part and parcel of our judicial system.
    
    Justice is not blind in this country and never has been.  Justice is
    not equal in this country and never has been.
    
    John 
    

    MaB, just because you've seen a lot of negative print in *here* about
    Tyson's past history of abusing/intimidating/fondling women doesn't
    mean that the jury who found him guilty did so because of his past...
    
    I loathe Mike Tyson as a person, but I also wonder how much of this
    particular mess is due to the fact that he's a celebrity with a ton of
    money.
    
    And, in my opinion, the verdict is a no-win situation.  He loses, and
    it's because he's a Black man.  If he would've won, it would've been
    because (like William Smith), he's got a lot of money and powerful
    influences.  Neither man wins or loses in spite of what they really
    did.  That's pretty sad...
    
    Personally, despite all the excuses, money, power, family, best lawyer
    money can buy, lousy prosecuter, past history, White man, Black man,
    etc., I firmly believe that the judicial system worked fairly in both
    cases (Smith & Tyson)...
    
    Hawk
    

    I think Ill hold back any future judgements/comments on this case
    for a couple of weeks to see how both handle the aftermath of the
    decision.  This is my own personal opinion and doesnt really matter
    Ill just wait and see if the Victim is out for the all MIGHTY $$$$$
    or if she was truly victimized.
    
    There are many case of rape every year, both that are reported and that
    are not reported (due to many reasons).  I happen to be close to
    someone who was raped, after she filed charges (she new the mans name)
    the police said there was insuffiecent facts and they couldnt win the
    case (basically) now a year later 2 more people have been raped by this
    same guy, they now want this person to go down and be a witness in the
    case against him, the 1st victim said NO and and now being supeonad(sp)
    and forced to testify... She is seeing a physc and does not want
    anything to do with it, she cannot even talk about it without breaking
    down and will not take the stand, yet they still are trying to force
    her to testify..........  I dont think if Oprah called this person and
    offered her money to tell what happen to her on TV that she could talk
    about it any easier.....
    
    								MaB

RE:  last few

	I think John Hendry has pretty much summed up my feelings,
the process works!  It is about guilt/innocence in an indirect way,
the burden of proof is the key, the prosecution has to PROVE guilt,
the defense does NOT have to prove innocence, only conjure up
a "reasonable doubt".  I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV,
but I have served on a jury, and in my opinion, while the results
of any trial are partially a function of the skill of the lawyers involved,
the juries in both the Smith and Tyson trials rendered the correct 
verdicts, based upon the evidence presented.
	This black/white and rich/poor stuff is just smoke.  Put yourself
in the jury, evaluate the facts, and remember the burden of proof is
on the prosecution.   In the Tyson case the prosecution met that
burden; they didn't in the Smith case.    That's not to say Smith
didn't do it, just that they didn't PROVE IT, thus the not guilty
verdict was the correct one.  

MAC2

    re Leary

    Mike, Tyson's case aside, many a black (ordinary Joe's as well as
    athletes) man has been RRed by the system.

    Muhammad Ali and Jack Johnson are two that come to mind. Justice was
    the last thing that the powers-that-be had on their minds when they
    were persecuted. To diverge slightly, there are men like King, Malcolm,
    Fred Hampton, et al who were harassed by the FBI and CIA, and most
    refused to believe until after the fact.

    Hence I would caution you against thinking that a lot of black men are
    being sexist and paranoid. A lot of us feel that way, and for damned
    good reasons.

    HOWEVER, having said all of that, here is my take on the Tyson trial :

    1) No TV's were allowed, it made it harder to judge the case, unlike
    the WKS trial.

    2) Tyson's defense sucked. End of story. Even if he had gotten off,
    would it be possible to ever really respect him as a human being ?

    3) The victim (whose face was shown on Nightline last night - I forget
    her first name - and she is a looker) - how do I say it without
    sounding like a pig ? - I have had really hard time believing anyone
    that intelligent, that attractive, that traveled could be so gullible.

    How could she be that STUPID ? Or was she ?

    [NOTE : THIS IS NOT EXCUSING, NOR SHOULD IT **EVER** EXCUSE RAPE UNDER
    ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. SO LET'S AVOID THAT RATHOLE RIGHT NOW !]

    Why in the hell was she in his hotel room at 2am ? In Indy ? What is
    there to do in Indy at 2 am ?

    I mention all of this in the hope that a few lessons are learned from
    all of this, not just that men should not run roughshod over women, but
    that she was smart being there as I would be lighting a match near a
    leaking gas line.

    4) My feeling is that it _wasn't_ a racial RR job *based on the evidence
    that I have seen/heard up to now*, and that Mike Tyson really blew it. I 
    hope he gets jail time - it may actually save his life. Of course we will 
    have appeals for months in all likelihood, but my expectation is that he 
    will get 6-10 years, and be out in about three. And Tyson will still be 
    under 30.

    5) Don King is probably having a coronary. He'll lose at least $50
    million in the next 30 months alone.

    Funny we haven't heard from him yet ....

    Doc

    And, one of the difficulties in rape and sexual harassment is that men
    and women have differing interpretations of what these mean.  With our
    male dominated society and legal system (it was more so a few years
    ago, too), it is hard for a woman to be declared a winner in a case
    like this.  What is harassment to a woman probably isn't harassment in
    the eyes of a man (brought out so well in the Thomas/Hill brouhaha) and
    there's a lot of difficulty in sorting out what that means.
    
    The defense in this case in its final summation tried to use what is
    called by lawyers the "feeling dirty" theory of rape, where a woman
    consents to have sex, they have sex, he rolls over and goes to sleep and
    then doesn't call her within 3 days afterward.  The woman then decides
    she's been raped and calls the cops.  That didn't happen in this case
    but I think it might have been part of the Smith case where he called
    her by the wrong name after they did the deed.
    
    I've never been on a jury but I was called as an expert witness for the
    prosecution in a case a few years ago.  Basically, certain events that
    occurred during the crime were alleged to have taken place at certain
    points of a Patriots game.  Because one of my duties is to keep track
    of the time during the game (start time and end time), I was asked to
    testify.  I went over my testimony with both the prosecution and
    defense beforehand, the prosecution asked me several questions, the
    defense asked me one and that was it.  I helped the defendants get off
    even though I was a witness for the prosecution.  If I had disclosed
    something to the defense that would have helped the defendants get
    convicted, the defense was under no obligation to disclose that fact.
    If Smith walked out of that courtroom stating "I really did it, ha ha"
    he could not be prosecuted again.
    
    The system does work but it sure ain't perfect.
    
    John

    re .558  (The Root Beer Lady)
    
    A&W, the past was DISALLOWED in the WKS case, as it pertained to him
    (the judge said that three complaints of "date rape" could not be
    entered as evidence in the trial), and it would have certainly had an
    impact, IMO ...

    The judicial system is a lot like a computer:  They're great when they
    work!
    
    Knowing Tyson's past, the one that invited him to judge a beauty
    contest is a fool!
    
    Mike

    	Doc, before you know it King will be manager/promoter for the
    heavyweight champion (and it will not be Holyfield).  What he lost
    now he'll get later.  If Holyfield is stupid enough to fight Riddick
    Bowe first he'll lose a big payday with the winner of the Social
    Security Slugfest.  When Tyson won his first belt everybody said
    King was finished.
    
    				/Don

Some thoughts:


	First, our judicial system is not perfect, as many have said,
	but that is the price you pay for the idea behind it.  The
	idea behind our judicial system was always "Better to let a
	guilty man go free than imprison an innocent man".  That is
	not always the case, but it is the driving idea.  I'd rather
	have that than the case in some other countries.


	Second, as I've been learning about while reading "Best Evidence",
	lawyers and juries rarely concern themselves with the Truth, but
	rather with what the best evidence is.  From what they determine
	is the best evidence, they derive guilt or innocence.  That, along
	with Burden of Proof is the basis for a lot of legal strategy.

	
	Finally, keep this in mind.  TWELVE jurors voted guilty.  If ONE
	had not voted guilty, then Tyson gets off.  (Unless Indiana is
	one of those States that allows 11-1 or even 10-2 verdicts).
	That says something....

'Saw

 nope Saw it had to be a unanimous decision or the jury would have been hung

    re: .551
    
    The accuser's name was used on NBC on Saturday night and by the
    prosecutor, Garrison, last night. SO that is no secret.
    
    re: .571
    
    right on! repeat after me, beyond a reasonable doubt, beyond a
    reasonable doubt. That is not easy to do, especially when unanimity is
    needed to convict.
    
    Also, I believ that no state has 10-2 or 11-1 rules to convict in a
    criminal case. In civil cases yes, criminal I doubt.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

I had an interesting discussion last night after the Tyson verdict came out. I was
with another guy and a woman last night. She was arguing that he was not guilty
based on the fact that there was no way she should have been in his hotel room
at that hour. She should have known what he was after. Myself and the other guy
said that even if she was there when she says no then it doesn't go any further.

We all thought it was kind of strange that the two guys were defending the woman
and the female was defending the guy......She says she's been propositioned 
by a few Seahawks (she's a looker) and you never go up into any professional
athletes room if you don't intend to have sex. 

I disagree with Air Brooks that nobody will ever know what really happened. There
are 2 people that know exactly what happened. 

I'll be interested to see if she hits the compenstated talk show circuit as well.

Metz

Re the 11-2, 10-2.


I might be misinformed, but a few months ago I was reading an article
in the Courant about our (CT's) justice system, and they were relating
how some states have gone to the 11-1 or 10-2 systems to prevent 
hung juries in some cases.  Since the article was dealing with the
Ct Criminal Justice system, I assumed they were talking about other
state's criminal courts.

I do know they are trying to make it easier in CT to give out the death
penalty....



Re Tyson

No matter what, I'll bet Tyson ends up doing easy time some place.  Some
of the Watergate guys ended up doing time at places like Danbury CT (where
the Rev Moon was).  The place is a country club.

Bet you this:  Tyson does easy time, and he can still train, and hell, 
they might even furlough him to fight....


'Saw

    	Tyson will do hard time 'Saw.  Country clubs are for white collar
    types.
    
    				/Don

 He may go to the big house Don but I doubt that he'll do hard time. They'll
 have him in mini (minimum security) or pre-release faster than ACChris can
 spin....

 believe me having money in jail is everything....

 mike

    	Agreed Mike, once in he can buy just about anything he wants.
    But today even minimum security prisons have some pretty bad types.
    He will not be in any prison with a tennis court though, like the
    Watergate boys were.
    
    				/Don

But I bet they let him continue to train.  His trainer will
come in, and he'll keep working out.  Don King will set
up fights for him, and he will be furloughed out to
fight for the Championship if he wants...

Betcha...


'Saw

    	Don't think so 'Saw.  Once he's behind bars, King will drop
    him like a bad habit and go on to someone new.  
    
    				/Don

    I doubt he will be in a minmum security place. My guess is if he is
    lucky he'll end up in a medium security rather than a maximum security
    prison. Will also depend on if he gets 10 years or 30 years.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

 Saw, everyone is allowed to workout in prison. It's part of the rehabilation
 program as well as hopping that guys will release their pent up stress and
 fustrations on the bball court, with the weights or handball whatever.

 True Don, but most of the bad dudes/big dudes in prison are pretty cool. It's
 the little guys that either gang up together for a blanket party or hide
 behind a wall with a homemade weapon.

 mike

    Since he's not in here today, and there are lots of predictions
    going around, I'll share with y'all --dan'l's little "becha" from last
    night;
    
    "becha he has a title fight IN DA PRISON!"
    
    Kev_for_dan'l
    
    

Kev,

I'm gonna let you get away with this "cross-noting" only
because dan'l ain't here.  But this is a Tuesday, and it's
only allowed to cross-note in FRIDAYS!


Mike,

What I meant by workout, was to have his entire training
regimen available in prison.  Mike won't work out with
the regular cons, nope, he'll work out with his regular
sparring partners who are imported just for him.


I like the Title Fight in Prison.


And I don't think King will drop him.  King is himself and
ex-con, and I think he'll find someway to milk this for
all it's worth....


'Saw

 Could be Saw. Like I've said all along anything and everything is for sale
 in prison....

 mike

    Hey Doc, last time I checked a woman being in a men motel room at 2:00
    doesn't mean she wants sex...
    
    REK
    
    PS NO MEAN NO! If the man does not stop its RAPE!

>    Hey Doc, last time I checked a woman being in a men motel room at 2:00
>    doesn't mean she wants sex...
    
 >    PS NO MEAN NO! If the man does not stop its RAPE!


 yeah but only a complete idiot wouldn't realize that was what was on his
 mind. also sometimes NO mean YES if you respect me in the morning.

 Given that he supposedly did three different types of sexual acts to her
 I find it hard to believe that she couldn't have screamed for help or gotten
 away. Did he gag her or tie her down?

 I realize he didn't have to tie her down to restrain her but she still
 could have screamed bloody murder especially during the Oral part...

 mike

    > also sometimes NO mean YES
    
    A very dangerous statement. Too often that kind of thinking leads to
    rape.
    
    
    re: title fight in prison. That is assuming that Holyfield loses and
    the new champion is amenable to that. Holyfield has already said that
    if Tyson is found guilty he will not fight him. King does not control
    Holyfield so I'll bet that Holyfield sticks to his guns.
    
    Also a fight in prison would require the aquiescence of the prison and
    state authorities. I just don't see that happening. No politician would
    agree to something like that if he/she wanted to get re-elected.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

>>    re Leary

>>    Mike, Tyson's case aside, many a black (ordinary Joe's as well as
>>    athletes) man has been RRed by the system.

>>    Muhammad Ali and Jack Johnson are two that come to mind. Justice was
>>    the last thing that the powers-that-be had on their minds when they
>>    were persecuted. To diverge slightly, there are men like King, Malcolm,
>>    Fred Hampton, et al who were harassed by the FBI and CIA, and most
>>    refused to believe until after the fact.
    
   Doc,
    Above statements I would wholheartedly agree with.  While listening to
    the talk show this morning it was obvious that most of the callers'
    anger was directed at the miserable historical record of the black
    man in judicial circles; a trend no doubt in their minds is in
    continuance. Unfortunately I believe the automatic support for Tyson,
    the abandonment of the victim by the majority of the "public" black
    leadership is misdirected in this case. You have said as much yourself.
    However,not being black,I cannot purport to have lived through such
    injustice and cannot emotionally explain the linkage between this case
    and countless "railroaded cases". You can and I appreciate the
    response. Dang, I wish I could attend your seminar tomorrow. 
    
    

   >> Hence I would caution you against thinking that a lot of black men are
   >> being sexist and paranoid. A lot of us feel that way, and for damned
   >> good reasons.

    Again I can understand how a majority of black men can be cynical and
    wary of the system, and I also do not think the majority are paranoid.
    I was stunned by the obvious anger and conviction of the sampling
    of men that called into the show. What I found most surprising was the
    overt sexism unveiled by this small sampling. Perhaps the callers'
    anger was so strong at the system's failings towards people of color
    that the choicest avenue was directed at the woman, thus the sexism                                                         
                                                             

   >> My feeling is that it _wasn't_ a racial RR job *based on the evidence
   >> that I have seen/heard up to now*, and that Mike Tyson really blew it. 
                          
   Agreed.
    
    
    MikeL
     
                        
    
    
                       
  
 

    Funny we haven't heard from him yet ....

    Doc

    Mike, where did you get that info about what Tyson did to her at 3
    different times?  When did this story get on Geraldo? :-)
    
    REK, open your mind for a change, just a little.  It's not difficult to
    comprehend that even a remote possibility for sex exists when a woman
    enters a man's hotel room at 2am, not just I Love Lucy reruns & a cup
    of hot cocoa...
    
    Hawk
    

    Hawk, I do have an open mind... Doc's statment ranks up there with..
    "Look at the way she dressed" etc...  She could have gone up there
    for anytthing... But no means no..... Just because of what she wears,
    what time it is does not mean sex....
    
    REK

    Hawk,
    No matter what, No means No. It's quite possible she was quite naive.
    But I really have no idea. But Tyson would have us believe that she
    was compliany because she knew what he was like so what did she expect
    but direct behavior. C'mon Tyson.
    
    On the way back into the ofc. this PM I heard a conversation between
    a reporter from the Indy Star and a Boston talk show host. According
    to the testimony, the woman recalled Tyson asking her out, and she said
    "Sure, let's go to a movie." Tyson, accordong to the reporter, in his
    own words on the stand said he was quite direct, " No, I want you, I
    want you. I want to #@$%^&&*$% you." And then Tyson would have us
    really believe this when he said " And then she said to me ' You're
    so bold, her's my number'"  Yea right.
    
    MikeL
    

    I felt the woman's story as to why she was in Tyson's hotel room at 2 AM 
    in the morning was believable and reasonable.  She and Tyson were to be
    going out on the town-- there's no disputing that the girl was
    impressed with Tyson and wanted to party with him, to be seen with him.  
    According to the woman, Tyson had his driver stop back at the hotel to 
    take care of some things first.  What he needed to take care of is a 
    matter of conjecture and in dispute.  The girl claims Tyson said he 
    wanted to pick up his bodyguard.  Tyson and the driver testified that
    his bodyguard was already present in the car (I still find it unfathomable 
    that the defense never called this bodyguard-- who was in the hotel
    with Tyson right up through the time the rape supposedly occurred and
    had to have had something to say about the behavior of both Tyson and
    the girl during that time-- to the stand.  Nagging questions like 
    this one would only make it easier for the jury to doubt Tyson's story
    if a trusted aide wouldn't corroborate it).
    
    Was the girl unwise to accompany Tyson to his room as he was to take 
    care of some business before leaving to hit the town?  Yes.  Was 
    trusting him in doing so an unbelievable act on the part of an
    18-year-old woman?  Nope.
    
    glenn
    

    re .593
    
    REK, like I said, nothing excuses Tyson. No means no. I've been in
    simular situations, but if I didn't get the checkered flag, then I
    slept on the couch, watched a movie with her,a nd that was that. I
    probably missed chances galore - however I won't breaking rocks until
    the year 2012 either .... :-)
    
    Like I said, I didn't want a rathole, and all things considered, I
    believe the girl. However if I see her doing the $$$'s circuit, I'd
    have to reconsider.
    
    My big hope is that men, especially athletes, frat types, etc
    understand that no means no, and that women deserve respect under ALL
    conditions. I also hope that young women exercise better judgement in
    simular situations in the future. I've seen situations in college that
    was a tragedy waiting to happen ... but respect was replaced with
    testosterone poisioning, teasing, and posing.
    
    BTW, a must read is Mike Barnicle's ed on Page 17 of Tuesday's Boston
    Globe ....

    Anybody catch CROSSFIRE on CNN last night?  Fascinating program.  The
    guests were the prosecutor in the Tyson trial, Arthur Ashe, and Anthony
    Munoz.
    
    They all seemed in agreement that Tyson was/is his own worst enemy. 
    They also discussed this trial vs. William Kennedy Smith's.  The
    prosecutor said that the Smith trial was lost based on facts.  Not
    poor prosecution as the media and arm-chair attorneys would have us to
    believe.  It was also noted that both Smith and Tyson had hired very
    competent, capable attorneys to represent them.
    
    A good portion of the program centered on whether athletes should be
    role models.  I really enjoyed listening to Ashe's and Munoz's
    comments.  Both men seem to have a genuine concern for their fellow
    man.  BTW, Munoz was named the NFL's Man of the Year.
    
    WILDCAT

 To get back to your point John Hendry about the appeal, Tyson stands a chance
 of getting one because he maybe able on the grounds that the jury was not 
 racially equal or that judge didn't allow 3 of his witness to testify.

 Another mistake I have made is that Indiana unlike Mass. isn't 1/3 time 
 served eligible for parole it's 1/2 time served eligible for parole. One
 thing in Tyson's favor is the judge in his trial when compared against her
 peers is a lighter sentencer. Minumum on a rape conviction in Indiana is
 10 years but 4 years can be removed if the denfendant shows true remorse
 for his/her actions or does comunity service time. So as earlier stated
 look for Mike to get 6 to 10 years.

 Could be three years though before he does any time at all as he can appeal
 to the state superior and then supreme courts...

 Hawk, I'll send ya mail...

    
    	Indiana does not have a boxing program so Tyson will not have
    	the opportunity to box at all.  Kathy Duva also said that there's
    	no chance for a fight with Holyfield if he's out on appeal.  She
    	said "no way, he's a rapist".
    
    	Tom
    

    In Indiana an inmate gets one day off the sentence for each day of good
    behavior.
    
    Anyone else catch Robin Roberts' commentary on ESPN last night. ESPN
    does an "editorial" piece very very rarely, and she really spoke her
    mind!
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    What did she say?
    
    REK

    I am not going to do this justice, but I'll outline some of the
    comments.
    
    It was along the lines of the black community needs models and it is a
    shame that anyone looked at Tyson as a role model, she never would have
    wanted and kid of hers to see Tyson as a role model even befor this
    incident. There was a lot more there, anyone have a better description
    of her comments??
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Any commments from the Boxing world (like the prez of one of the alphatbet soup 
orgs like WBC, WBF, etc.) on all this??  All I've seen is that Tyson can still 
fight if out on appeal (Kathy Duva's comments not withstanding).  I think about 
Pete Rose and baseball and him being banned like he's got the plague and all he 
did was place a few bets.  Tyson RAPED, one of the most vicious crimes one can 
commit, and so far not a peep as far as I know.  If he is ever sanctioned to 
fight again it would seem boxing is more the sport of the sewer than the sport 
of kings, IMO.

Scott

    Anybody catch the ruckus outside the courthouse yesterday when Mike
    appeared for his probation hearing?  Seems the crowd got *very* unruly
    cause they were so angry at the conviction.  One guy interviewed said
    the 10 white jury members were no_doubt David Duke supporters and the 2
    blacks something along the lines of 'Uncle Tom's'.
    
    Now I pretty much write these comments off cause these people were
    obviously highly charged emotionally, but what I can't understand is
    how they can get so worked up over Mike Tyson.  What's he ever done to
    deserve this kind of loyalty?  His track record certainly lends
    credence to his conviction, but doesn't the fact that the woman was
    black completely dismiss any kind of racism charges?  
    
    What am I missing?
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Sports figures have always had loyal supporters whether or not they
    deserved that kind of loyalty. Part of the uproar is no doubt the
    feeling among some that Tyson was convicted as much for being black as
    anything else. From all the comments in the media and by the jury this
    is indeed far fetched. However, it is an emotional issue; throw that in
    with people who have loyalty to a superstar and it can be an explosive
    situation. 
    
    Re: appeal. Word is that appeals based on witnesses not being allowed
    and a jury that is not racially balanced are often filed but rarely
    succeed.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    The N.Y.,N.J., and L.V. boxing commissions all declined comment.( These
    would be the ones to sanction him to fight while out on appeal,I
    believe)
    
    Where is Don King ? Lying low, because the tide is definetly not with
    him. He knows when to keep his trap shut, and he's probably working the 
    Geezer fight (Holmes,George) for megabucks...
    
    How much can she sue Tyson for ?
    
    When will the accused hit the Talk show, radio show, Magazine route ?
    
    What a mess and a digrace for the boxing community, just another black
    eye for this noble sport.
    
                                                 

    	The IBF has already dropped Tyson from is rankings and will
    not sanction any fight he is in.  Other than Los Bandidos (a.k.a.
    WBC) I can't see any other boxing organization in Tyson's corner,
    and they will only because they're King cronies.
    
    				/Don