Conference 7.286::sports_91

    Pretty comprehensive listing, Saw. The only nits I can find are
    
    Giants: In the 60s it had a lower-case ny, not nyg and for a couple 
    of years (Yale Bowl-Shea years?) they had a upper-case NY in a white 
    outline. That's also when they had the white/red/white stripe on
    their helmet.
    
    Cowboys: Used to be blue and white (no silver) They had a white helmet 
    with 2 stripes and a similar star. They also had stars on their
    shoulders. This was in the early '60s.
    
    Oilers: Have always had the same logo, but the helmet evolved from
    silver to light blue (like the jerseys) to white.
    
    The coolest look was always the Chargers, with the lightning stripes
    down the sides of the leg!  
    
    Tom

 'Saw,
 
 The Eagles originally had green helmets with white wings.  They
 changed to a white helmet with kelly green wings for the 1972 and
 1973 seasons.   In 1974, they made the switch back to their current
 green helmets with silver wings.
 
 I know I'm partial to them but I've always thought the Eagles wings
 were a really great logo.   Great design use of the helmet.   Same
 with the Vikings.
 
 And, yes, the Skins went from the burgundy helmet with the twin
 spears during the 1960's to a yellowish-gold one with an encircled
 "R" and attached feathers in the early 1970's.   They wore that one
 in their 1973 Supe 7 loss to Miami.   Funny but you can mark the
 quarterback torch passing of Sonny Jurgenson to Billy Kilmer by the
 Skins helmets.   Jurgenson films show him in the twin spears and
 Kilmer footage is in the circled "R".    A few years later, they
 switched back to burgundy and their current Indian head logo.
 
 And you do recall that the Niners *almost* had a new "49ers" design
 this year but fans in Frisco gave Eddie DeBartolo a major league hard
 time about it and he caved in and went back to the old "SF".
 
 Houston has gone from white to powder blue and back to white.  But
 the oil derrick has been there all along.
 
 Cincy probably had the most radical change of all going from the
 utterly boring "BENGALS" to the totally wild tiger stripes.  They
 went to the Super Bowl that year (1982), too.
 
 Bob Hunt

       Rams have the best helmet.
       Bengals aree definitely the worst (look like worms to me).
                                      Denny

    Since Bob H. mentioned that SF almost changed their logo last year, I
    remember sometime in the mid or late 70's when the Pats considering
    changing their logo.  It was kind of like a patroitic face (side view)
    with a flag waving behind the head.  The let their fans vote on it at
    halftime of a game and it was turned down badly.  Maybe John H. can
    give us more details on this one.
    
    This doesn't have anything to do with helmets, but one thing a lot of
    teams have changed is they wear all-white on the road.  I like it when
    a team wears colored pants when they wear white jerseys.  Example:
    Miami.  They wear aqua jerseys/white pants at home, and white
    jerseys/aqua pants on the road.  (Typically, but home team actually
    gets the choice of jersey colors.)  Teams I can think of who used to
    wear colored pants but now just wear white pants and white jerseys are
    Buffalo, KC, Indy, NE, and Denver.  SD and Cleveland also used to wear
    colored pants, but they wore those no matter what color jerseys they
    had on.                 
    
    Joe

Yes, I messed up the Giants.  There was no "g" in there.  Guess my fingers
just got carried away! 8^)


Bob, while I'm not an Iggles fan, I always thought that logo was cool...



Regarding Uniforms:

	Giants have always had white pants for every occasion.
	However, I have seen film from the early 60s that shows their
	white unis with RED numbers I believe....

Re the Pats:

	I remember seeing that game and vote on TV.  I'm somewhat of
	a traditionalist (I advocate getting the baseball Giants and
	Dodgers back where they belong 8^)) and I thought that new
	Patriot guy was queer and too commercial....

	The Pats logo retains an emotional traditional feel of those
	early 60s years when the AFL was the upstart and up and coming
	league.  To this date they're the only league I know of not
	to fold, and to ultimately merge with the NFL.

	(I *hated* the AFL as a kid 8^))

'Saw

    The story of the proposed logo change is 100% correct.  The fan vote at
    halftime wasn't even close.
    
    The Rams were the first team in the NFL to have a helmet logo.  It was
    painted by former player Fred Gehrke.
    
    The University of Michigan helmet logo is patterned after the design of
    the old leather football helmet.  The helmet logo is shared by their
    football team and their hockey team.  The University of Delaware
    football team uses the same helmet logo and the University of Maine
    used to use the same one, except using white instead of gold.
    
    John

    It was NFL Properties and not the team that was behind the proposed
    logo change, incidentally, since the current logo is very difficult to
    reproduce on clothing and so forth.
    
    John

    The Wolverine logo is one of my favorites.  Too cool!
    
    Re: Pats
    
    at least they look good.

       The Pats halftime vote was close to 100%-0% I was there. They stood
    at midfield with a decibel meter. The fans 'cheered' for each logo. You
    coulda heard a pin drop (seriously) when the vote was made for the new
    guy.
                                             Denny

	The Giants did have white shirtswith Red numbers and stripes,
and they also had grey pants at one time in the 60's to go with the
the white shirts, I believe.

	Jim M

    Cleveland and San Francisco were the only two teams that went from the
    AAFC to the NFL.  The Colts franchise completely folded and was
    replaced by another one with the same name, founded from scratch in
    either 1952 or 1953.
    
    Cleveland won 4 straight AAFC titles from 1946-49, came into the league
    and waxed the 2-time defending NFL champion Eagles 35-7 in the opening
    game, beat the Giants in a 1-game playoff to win the Eastern Division
    and then beat the Rams for the NFL title.  They lost the title game to
    the Rams in 1951, lost to the Lions in the title game in 1952 and 1953,
    won the NFL title in 1954 and 1955, lost in the title game to the Lions
    in 1957 and lost consecutive games to the Giants in 1958 to get knocked
    out of the Eastern Division title.  They lost to the Giants 10-8 in the
    last regular season game when Pat Summerall kicked a long field goal
    through the snow in the last minute and then lost a playoff game to the
    Giants 10-0 the next week.  That set up the Giants for the OT loss to
    the Colts in the title game.
    
    The mid-fifties were the transition years from the Browns being the
    dominant team in the East to the Giants being the dominant team in the
    East.  The Browns and Lions were the teams of the early-mid fifties and
    then the Giants and Colts.  The Colts won titles in 1958 and 1959 when
    their dynasty peaked.  The Giants were in title games in 1956, 1958,
    1959, 1961, 1962 and 1963.  After the Colts faded, here came the
    Packers making it to title games in 1960, 1961, 1962, 1965, 1966 and
    1967.  There would be a gap of a few years before the next really big
    dynasties, the Dolphins and Steelers, would come along.
    
    John

I wasn't sure about the AAFC.

Lou "The Toe" Groza.  Now there's a name.  Back in those days the 
teams didn't have, for the most part, specialty kickers.  Lou was
a tackle, wasn't he?  I know Jerry Kramer kicked for the Packers.

'Saw

       Paul Hornung kicked for the Pack.
                             Denny

Actually, in his book "Instant Replay" Kramer talks about kicking.

He may not have been the first choice, but he did kick.  If I have to,
I'll go up in the attic, pull the book and then find the part, enter
it in.....


	[The play is being reviewed.  The call on the field was "'Saw
	 was wrong"]

8^)

    It was Jerry Kramer.  Hornung was the kicker most of the time but while
    Hornung was out on his gambling accusation, Jerry came in and did the
    kicking.  Then, after Hornung came back, Kramer was undergoing his
    major surgery for an intestinal problem.  As a child, he had gotten
    some wood splinters lodged in his abdomen and it caused a near fatal
    infection.  By the time Kramer was healthy enough to go back to
    kicking, the Packers had picked up Don Chandler in a trade from the
    Giants.
    
    Hornung was out of football during 1963.  Kramer was out in 1964. 
    Chandler came to the Pack in 1965 and kicked for them for 3 years.  I
    somehow remember reading about Kramer doing some kicking during 1962
    and kicking 3 field goals and an extra point during the 1962
    championship game, won by the Packers over the Giants 16-7.
    
    John

       Alex Karras was on 'Schapp Talk' on ESPN lasted night. It just so
    happens that Jerry Kramer called in and they chatted for a while.
    Couldn't beleive neither one of em is in the HOF yet.
       Karras talked about Tom Dempsey's 63 yard FG. He was on the D-line
    for that kick. He said the whole team was Roooollllliiiinnnnnggg when
    this guy came limping onto the field for the kick. They shut up pretty
    quick though he said.
                                    Denny

 If it really was Jerry Kramer kicking for the Pack, then I'll take
 the gaspipe for saying otherwise.   Something is whispering to me,
 though, that we need an official "lookup" in some NFL record book or
 something.   I'm still not totally convinced otherwise.
 
 The Pack beat the Jints for the title in both 1961 and 1962.  One
 year was a blowout and the other was kinda tight.   I thought it was
 the Pack kicker (whoever it was) scoring most of the points in the
 blowout.   I seem to recall 19 points total.   Might have been
 Paul Hornung with a TD, a PAT, and 4 FG's.
 
 Ninj, you got paper on this ???
 
 Bob Hunt

    The 1961 title game was a blowout for the Packers over the Giants at
    Lambeau Field.  Hornung was the kicker that year, there were a lot of
    points scored by kicking and that was the year Hornung scored 176
    points.  The 1962 title game was the 16-7 win for the Packers over the
    Giants at Yankee Stadium on an absolutely bitter cold day.  That day,
    the kicker (either Hornung or Kramer) scored 10 points, I believe.
    
    Bob, I've got plenty of paper on this one.  I've got 3 of Kramer's
    books, a Packer media guide, the Pro Football Encyclopedia and the NFL
    Record Manual.  I think I can find the answer in there someplace.
    
    John

I *know* I'm right.

In fact, I remember Kramer talking about the problems of NOT having
a specialist kicker in those days.  It was a real decision whether or
not to kick.

The logic went something like:  Our kicker is out right guard.  We're at
the 40 yard line.  Do we drive closer to try the field goal in a lesser
distance, but also tiring our kicker more, or do we stay out here with
a fresher kicker at a longer distance.

Kramer was beset by injuries from his early days.  He does not have full
use of his right hand from some sort of childhood accident.  But the
man could block!  I'll never forget Bart Starr on the QB sneak plowing
right in behind Kramer's block on Lilly....  What a thriller...

Karras was on LT's place last Sunday.  He's written a novel all about
the television aspects of football, called "Tuesday Night Football".....

'Saw

Guys

I LOVED the Pack in those years.  Here are a few things I remember:

  o Both Horning and Kramer kicked, and as Ninj' said, they aquired Don Chandler,
    and he took over in the late 60's.

  o THE most celebrated block of all time was Kramer's block on Jethro Pugh in
    the 'Ice Bowl' game.

RE: Helmet Logos

Didn't both the Broncos and Dolphins have orange helmets at one time?  I know
the Broncos have changed, since their uniforms were the biggest joke in 
football.

The Chargers did have the all time coolest uniforms, with the lightning bolt
on the helmet and pants.  Wish they'd bring them back.

=Bob=

Not three strikes, because one is still under review.

And yes, of course, it was Jethro.  I mixed up my protagonists.  Lilly
was the guy that was yelling about the end zone being all ice and he
wanted something from the sideline to try and scape some footholds in
it....

Silly me ;^)

Ninj, dude, I *need* that verification....


And anyway, it was still one of the most excellent blocks ever ;^)

I was unable to find my copy of "Instant Replay" last night.  Therefore,
it's not in the attic but somewhere downstairs.  My job for tonight it
to find the book, find the passages where he talks about kicking then
post them ;^)

'Saw

    It was Jethro Pugh who was blocked in the Ice Bowl game.  The thing is,
    it was a doubleteam block with Ken Bowman (Center) and Kramer gets 90%
    of the credit.
    
    The ugliest part of the old Broncos uniforms were vertical striped
    socks.  That's enough reason for *ANYBODY* to hate the Donks.  :-)
    
    Now to Kramer vs Kramer.  I looked it all up in a Packers Media Guide
    last night and here's the information:  Jerry Kramer, not Ron Kramer,
    did the kicking.  Paul Hornung was the Packers primary kicker for most
    of the early part of his career, 1957-62 and 1964.  1963 was the year
    when he was under suspension for gambling with Alex Karras.  The Pack
    did acquire Don Chandler from the Giants and he kicked for them from
    1965-67.  Jerry Kramer filled in as the kicker during 1963 and when
    Paul Hornung was on military duty which he appeared to be doing during
    1962, or when Hornung was hurt.
    
    Hornung's best seasons were 1960 and 1961.  He scored 176 points in
    1960, on 15 TDs, 41 PATs and 15 FGs.  In 1961, he had 146 points on 10
    TDs, 41 PATs and 15 FGs.  In the 1961 title game, a 37-0 win over the
    Giants, he had 1 TD, 3 FGs and 4 PATs for 19 points.  In his career
    with the Packers he scored 760 points on 62 TDs, 190 PATs and 60 FGs. 
    It can probably be argued that Hornung was the last true triple threat
    scorer - running, receiving and kicking.  Of course, his off-field
    scoring was allegedly not bad either.
    
    Jerry Kramer scored 177 career points on 29 FGs and 90 PATs.  The bulk
    of this came in 1963, when he was 16/33 on FGs and had 43 PATs for 91
    points.  He was the kicker in the 1962 title game who kicked 3 FGs and
    a PAT for 10 points.  Ron Kramer had 15 career TDs for 90 points but
    according to the guide, never kicked.  Don Chandler had 48 FGs and 117
    PATs for 261 career points.
    
    John

Yes!

It's okay, Bob, you make mistakes so rarely that I'll let this one slide...

8^)

'Saw

    Thanks, Bob, but it's no particular genius.  It's just a matter of
    having the right research materials (and anyone who's been to my house
    will know I have them) and knowing how to use them.
    
    John

    Back to logos, I don't think the dolphins ever had a different look.
    Seems to me that the aqua pants are the most radical alteration they've
    had since they started 1966. The Donks used to wear orange pants back
    when Floyd Little was their best player. Apparently they had a really
    ugly combo of brown and yellow (with the vertical stripes on the socks)
    way back in the early 60s. Not that the current Orange/Blue combo is
    anything to rave about, but it beats the old look.
    
    Tom 

    Ah, the early 60's Jints, my favorite team from thumb-sucking days
    (no jokes pleeze). I remember the names; Huff, Robustelli,Lynch,
    Patton, the two Rosie's(Greer and Brown),Morrison,Webster,Gifford,
    Tittle, Connerly. Speaking of Tittle and Connerly,which one was QB
    for the '61 and '62 champeenship days? I know Tittle played in the
    '63 game vs the Bears, but not sure which one started during 61 and 62.
    
    Speakin' of uniforms and logos, can anyone recall the regalia of those
    early AFL dinosaurs , the Dallas Texans( now KC Chiefs) and the pre-
    cursor of the Jets, the New York Titans?
    
    MikeL
    
    PS. Used to catch some good semi-pro foosball in the Beantown area
    when I was a tyke; the old Providence Steamrollers and the Boston
    Sweepers at good old Everett Stadium. Anyone else ever catch these
    games?
    
    
    

       Ther eused to be a team in Lowell too. The Giants. Played at Cawley
    Stadium. I remeber the Pats playing there onced. Caint remember if they
    played the Lowell Giants or an AFL team. It was a exhibition game anyway.
    John, do your records go back that far?
                                      Denny

There was a semi-pro team in Hartford.  I wanna say they were the Saints
but I'm not sure.  In the same league was a team called the Pottstown
Firebirds.  Their main claim to fame was a guy named Marv Hubbard....

(Before everyone corrects me, I may have the team names wrong, but I know
the team that put Hubbard onto the Raiders was in the same league with
the Hartford team....)

'Saw

> 
> No, 'Saw, you're thinking of Aloysius D'Artagnan Kramer, a running
> back and kicker who later played for the Saskatchewan Roughriders and
> the London Monarchs.   Right, John ???		:-) :-) :-)

Good one Bob! ;^)

 
> P.S.   There was one other semi-famous semi-pro from the Pottstown
> Firebirds.  In the late 1970's, Eagles coach and burnout-to-be Dick
> Vermeil fell head over heels in love with a local Philly boy, a real
> paisan, who played for the Firebirds.   He signed him as a free agent
> and he was the emotional kamikaze leader of the Eagles special teams
> for about 3 or 4 seasons ... Vince Papale, South Philly's native son
> hero.


I remember this guy.  Not from the semi-pros but from the Iggles...

I went to a couple of Hartford games.  My dad didn't make a lot of money
when I was a kid and we never could go to any big pro games anywhere.

But the Hartford team played at Dillon Stadium, and the admission was
affordable.  Those were the first "pro" football games I ever went to...

Always liked Marv cause he came from that league...

'Saw

    One of my proudest possessions is a book about the Pottstown Firebirds. 
    Their stud player was a guy named Jimmy "The King" Corcoran and their
    coach was named Dave DiFilippo.  My book is signed by Dave because his
    nephew Frank was third string QB on our freshman team at the University
    of Massachusetts.  Frank was perhaps the best QB we had but he was my
    height, and shorter than St Douglas of the Heights (tm).
    
    The Patriots played exhibition games in Lowell in 3 consecutive
    seasons.  August 25, 1962, before a crowd of 11,118, we beat the New
    York Titans, 17-10.  August 14, 1963, lost to the Oilers 21-20 before
    9,387.  August 18, 1964, lost to the Jets 23-7 before 6,390.  Over the
    years we've played games in Worcester (8/21/60, 21-7 over Buffalo,
    7,500), Amherst (8/28/60, 28-14 over Oakland, 4,000), and Providence
    (8/5/60, 43-6 over Denver, 4,706; 8/25/61, 28-10 over Buffalo, 4,762;
    8/11/62, 21-20 loss to Oakland, 9,000).
    
    John

    Bob -
    
    A friend of mine played semi-pro ball for the Philly team (and others)-
    a safety by the name of Alan Turner.  he has some absolutely HYSTERICAL
    stories to tell about semi-pro ball. 
    
    One involvles Joe Klecko, who played for a few games before his pro
    career (or perhaps before college...)
    
    Another involvles a classic injury to da cajones....
    
    Ha - I laugh just thinking about them...
    
    JD

The NY Titans wore the same unis as the Jets used to wear, except they had no
logo on their helmet.  I don't recall the Dallas Texans logo, but I believe they
had the same colors as now - red and white.  I could have sworn that the 
Dolphins once had orange helmets.  Oh well, maybe I'm wrong.  Also, rememmber 
when the Steelers had gold patches over their shoulder pads? 

The Lowell Giants eventually moved to Quincy, and played in Veterans Stadium
(capacity about 10,000).  My dad and I went to all the home games for the first
season they were there.   I remember that the late Ross O'Hanley was their 
head coach, and Don Allard was their QB.  The only real talent on the team was
Willie Porter, a safety who had put some time in with the Pats.  

Their first game in Quincy was against the Pottstown Firebirds.  I remember 
thinking that Pottstown was the funniest name for a city I had ever heard.  I 
also saw them play Roanoke (VA), Canton (OH), and who knows where else.  Each
of these teams were loosly aligned with NFL teams, and the players were 
semi-pro.  I think that the league folded, rather than the team.

=Bob=

    
    The Hartford team is also the one where Bob Tucker of the Giants was
    discovered.  Springfield had a team called the Acorns that played at
    the old Pynchon Park.  I've got a picture of Kelton Winston, a RB and
    DB who later played with the Bears, and myself that was on the front
    page of the Springfield Republican Sports section when I was about 6. 
    I bet you guys didn't know I was that famous.
    
    Bruce

    
       Rosey Grier played for the Giants?
    
    						 glen j.

Yup!


Before he went to the Rams.  I'm not positive of the time lines, but
it was in the years when Landry played DB and Vince Lombardi was an
assistant coach.

'Saw

    
    Tanks Saw!

    Can anyone tell me why the Steelers have a logo only on only
    one side of their helmets? And on what occasions do the
    Cowboys where their Blue jerseys?
      
                           Darren

>    Can anyone tell me why the Steelers have a logo only on only
>    one side of their helmets? And on what occasions do the
>    Cowboys where their Blue jerseys?
      

On the Cowboys:

	Home team has choice of color.  It usually tends to be
	the dark, not white.  However, some teams (the Giants esp)
	know that Dallas does not like to wear their blue jersies,
	so they make them wear blue when they play in Giants stadium.

	Course I could be wrong....

'Saw

    Glenn -
    
    Yep, Rosey Grier was a Giant - played on the defensive line with
    Robustelli, the Kat, etc...
    
    He was the first of two great giants defensive lineman to go on to the
    Rams - where he was part of the Rams first rendition of the Fearsome
    Foursome.   The other famous Giants defection the Rams was of course,
    Fred 'Hunter' Dryer.
    
    Dryer's story is one that personifies the dark days of the Giants
    organization.  Dryer was what was/is called a 'free spirit'.   He lived
    in a VW Micro Bus for a while, was flamboyant, didn't want to get his
    hair cut - all things that Wellington Mara and the Giants family
    couldn't stand.  It eventually led to Fred's departure - to the Rams
    where he went on to become a pro-bowl defender and form the other half
    of the Rams undersized, bookend, tough-as-nails defensive ends - with
    Jack "Plays on Broken Leg" Youngblood (No relation to Jim...)
    
    JD

    I think the bad luck omen came from Super Bowl IV or V or whatever,
    when they played the Colts. Normally if the 2 were playing, the Colts
    would be in Blue (home color) and the Cowboys in white, THEIR home
    color. But the Super Bowl rules then said that "the team from the *FC
    will wear dark jerseys" not "will have choice of jerseys" as it is now.
    The Cowboys lost a mistake-filled game (on both sides) on a late field
    goal. If I remember right, the score was XVI to XII. 
    
    Tom

       ...and what a game it was. One of my all time favorites. Ranks right
    up there with Giants-Colts champeenship game. Jim Turner (I think)
    kicked that winning FG!! 
                               Denny 

    
    Jim Turner kicked for the Jets. The Colts kicker was Mike somebody and
    happened to be dating Shula'a daughter at the time. First SB were a
    losing player (Chuck Howley) was named MVP.
    
    Cadzilla

    Re:51 Tom, wasn't the score XVI to XIII
    
    
            REK

I believe his name was Jim O'Brien.

He wore #80 or something like that.  Very high number for a kicker.
(Did he also do some WR work???)

What a game...

Most exciting close SB until SF-Cincy and NY-Buff.....

    Somehow the name Jim O'Brien rings a bell as the Colts' kicker that
    year. 

       It was Jim something, Saw might be right this time.
                                      Denny  ;^)

    re .54 (LIV, I think)
    Yeah, I got my Roman Numerals mixed up again, it was XVI to XIII. Unlike
    Dan Quayle, I never took Latin in school, so I have an excuse for
    mixing up Super Bowl mythology and not being able to communicate with
    the locals in the Southern Hemisphere. 
    
    Tom

    
    re a few back
    
     You got it Saw. I snapped to it right after the CR
     Jim O'Brian. I could have choked that sucker, Dandy Don blew a few
    in that one. 
    
    Still  not as bad a Jackie Smiths drop in SB 13, best SB game of all
    time. If Smith make the catch game goes into OT, but noooo. Brick
    hands Smith drops it and Cowboy have to settle for the FG, 35-31
    steelers get ring number 3 of 4.
    
    Cadzilla
    
    

    re-1
    
    	Still sleeping it Craig "I can't win a SB" Morton at QB on
    that day in SB V.
    
    Cadzilla
    
    

Speaking of helmets and such, I thought that Todd Christiansen has 
a neat little story about the Cleveland helmet.  He told it two
weeks ago (last week?) at the Browns-Redskins game.

It seems that Todd and Browns LB Clay Mathews were in the Pro-Bowl
on year, and that there's this tradition of trading helmets afterwards.

Evidently, according to Christiansen, no one wanted to trade for Clay's
helmet because it was so plain, and Clay was standing there, kind of
beside himself.

Todd took pity on him and traded helmets with him.....


'Saw