Conference 7.286::sports_91

No, today is not a running day.  Today is a lifting day.

M,W,F are running days.  T,Th,Sat are lifting days.  I decided to try and
do the lifting on the same days as rugby practice would be so that I'd 
maintain some commitment and discipline.

As to the diet, it's weird, I'm not really losing any weight (I'm tending
to waver around in the 225-230 area).  However, several people have
remarked to me that I appear to be redistributing my weight in a more
pleasing manner than before.

I've asked some folks about this phenomenon, because I'm not eating any
more than necessary to maintain an energy level, and I'm religiously taking
my vitamins and aminos, and all I've heard is that muscle is heavier than
fat, and that I'm probably replacing the fat with muscle, which will make
the bathroom scale seem NOT to move...

I feel stronger, and I feel more energy, and the 3.5 miles are getting
much easier to run.

Now I know why Arnold, Hans und Franz really like getting pumped up so much....


'Saw


PS  Still gotta work on The Guns, but I heard from a reliable source that
    blasting my triceps is the way to go....

Right you are, El Hawko....

Doing crunches, sit ups etc etc etc, will develop the underlying muscles, but
will not remove the fat.  To get rid of fat you have to do a low fat diet
coupled with some good aerobic exercise.

That's why I'm doing the lift and run routines.  Course, I need the running
for rugby anyway, but even if I wasn't doing that, I'd need the running to
lose the fat.

And there are proteins or aminos or whatever out there, that help the body
metabolize fat.

BTW, beer has NO fat.  What creates that beer belly is the relatively
high intake of carbs in beer, and a sedentary life style.  If you were 
running 10 miles a day,  you could drink all the beer you wanted, and the
only side effect (apart from alcohol related ones) is that alcohol has this
wicked tendency to impair your ability to function in high temperatures....

'Saw

    
    re: Fat stores, beer and such
    
    	I read that alcohol calories are actually burnt first by the body 
    over other types of calories.  Basically, alcohol does not make you
    fat as you said, it's what you eat when you drink that makes you fat.
    Just to reinforce that, anyone ever see a fat alcoholic?
    
    	Genetically, mens fat stores are located in the abdomen, hence men
    develop the traditional "beer belly."  In women, the fat stores are
    located in the lower back, upper thighs, and in the backs of their
    arms.  If women gain weight, that's were they are effected most.
    
    	True, there is no spot reduction (forget the tummy tucker gadgets)
    because when the body needs fuel, it grabs the fuel from anywhere.
    So, as you all have said, if you want to spot reduce, you will have to
    reduce all over.  Once the excess fat is depleated in the rest of your
    body, the body will start to pull the fat from those troubled spots.
    
    	If I remember correctly from my Nautilus days, ONE pound of fat
    contains 3000 calories!  That doesn't sound like much, but when you 
    realize that a strenuous workout (running) for an hour (about 6mph)
    only burns a few hundred calories, you get the picture that exercise
    alone is not enough.  You must cut down your daily fat/caloric (depending
    of course on what type and level of physical activity you are doing)
    intake along with exercise to effectively loose weight.
    
    								bill..g.

    
    Check out "The T-Factor Diet" book, by Martin Katahn, Ph.D.
    
    In it, the fat content of every conceivable food is given, along with
    the likes of Mickey-D's, Burger King, KFC, etc.  
    
    You don't have to watch or count calories - just limit your intake of
    fat, and man oh man!  what a difference!!!!  For men, the average
    intake of fat per day should be 30 - 60 grams (20 - 40 for women).  To
    see a difference, make sure your fat intake per day does not exceed the
    average.
    
    In two months I've dropped a dress size, and have gone down 2 sizes
    (!!) in a bathing suit.  And I don't miss a thing! 
    
    Seriously, if you're looking to decrease your density, check this book
    out, start scoping out the labels on the food in your house, and from
    there, watch what you eat.  Very easy!  My manager now has our whole
    area doing this!  And not only will you look and feel better, but it's
    heart-healthy to watch fat intake.
    
    
    
    Cath, a long lost noter
      

    The T-Factor is a great book.  Good call, Cath-meister.
    
    Mark.

Cath

I'm waiting for you to post "before and after" pictures!   8^0

Here's a tip on fat intake:

The target number should be 30% of all the food you eat by VOLUME, not weight.

The fat figures you see in grams on packages is by weight, so to figure out if
the food is ok, you need to do go thru a simple calculation.  One gram of fat 
contains 9 calories.  Multiply the number of grams per serving by 9.  Take this
number and divide it by the total calories per serving.  If the ratio is over 30%
this is not a good food fat wise.

Bill G.

Never heard anything about the body burning alcohol calories first, but as 'Saw
said, the alcohol in beer has a dehydrating effect.  Thus, today would not be a
good day to down a few brews after a ball game.

Now back to the regular frivolity!!!111

=Bob=

Sorry Hawk, I got a little crazy...

=Bob=

Bob had a point in a way.

My rule of thumb has always been that if I have those few cold ones today
my run will suck tomorrow because of my impaired ability to function in
the heat.

There *is* a benefit of beer (ie one beer or two beers) after particularly
hard exercise on a day like today.  Because beer goes to the kidneys faster
than anything known to man (true fact) it's great for cutting down on
potential kidney stones.

When you sweat a lot in weather like this, mineral deposits (kidney stones
or gravel) have a greater tendency to form.  Beer will flush this out.


After one or two beers, take a shitload or water or 10k or Gatorade....


'Saw

    re:.2096
    > Just to reinforce that, anyone ever see a fat alcoholic?
    
       Ever hear of Ted Kennedy?
                                            Denny

    
    re: burn rate of carbs
    
    	Can't remember where I read it (few years ago), but the article
    indicated that all carbs are not alike, hence they are burnt up
    differently.  Seems that the carbs in alcohol are different than
    those say in a bag of chips, so the body burns them at different rates.
    
    	Now, if it is true that alcohol carbs burn at a faster rate, then
    anything else you intake might not get burned, but instead are stored
    as fat.  I've heard that this is partially the case with Chinese food
    in that you can eat a ton of it and within an hour you are hungry
    again.  It would seem to indicate that the carbs in most Chinese food
    get used quicker than those taken in at the Thanksgiving table.
    
    	Seems to me that I read this stuff in a book put out by Authur
    Jones (the inventor of Nautilus equipment) and company about 6-7
    years ago about food and exercise.  Funny thing is that I can't find
    the books now....
    
    							bill..g.
    

RE: Carbs

There are more than one type of carbs: simple and complex.

All carbs are converted by your body to glycogen and used by the body as needed.
Simple carbs (ie sugars) do not have to go thru the ???? (pancreas), and go 
directly into the blood, hence a sugar high.  Complex carbs on the other hand go
through the pancreas, and can then be stored in your muscles and blood.  The 
body uses the glycogen stores when stressed (ie strenuous activity), and what 
isn't used is converted to fat.

But really - back to the junk note...I can't beleive any of those fine chiseled 
bodies in the WWF are the product of the 'roids, come on now...

=Bob=

    CARBS???CARBS???
    
    Personally, I prefer fuel injection!!
    
    JaKe
    

I read in a book on running one time that if you maintain your aerobic
level for more than 30 minutes, you'll start burning fat.  I don't know about
the science behind it, but it was working for me....

As far as the Hulk et al being steroid free, I *seriously* doubt it..

Look at the pattern baldness, the horse teeth, and the cuts, and you've
got to know they were juicin'.....

'Saw

    Fergit counting CARBS, fergit watching FAT, don't waste your money
    on VITAMINS.  And DON'T waste your money on MEAT and DAIRY PRODUCTS.
    
    (We have been brainwashed.)
    
    My wife put us on a diet a few weeks back that follows the book "Fit
    for Life" and we have never felt better!!  No more bleeding gums, no 
    more feeling tired after work, and probably no more colds and other
    disorders.
    
    This way of eating is supposed to be the "way we were designed to eat".
    The only thing you should eat from the time you get outa bed and until
    noon is FRUIT.  This cleans out your system.  Lunch and dinner is
    usually raw veggies.  This is the way we were supposed to eat.  Fruit
    is immediately turned to sugars and used by the body (especially the
    brain).  Infact, fruit only stays 20 minutes in the stomach.  On the
    other hand, a pile of steak sits in your belly for as much as 24 hours.
    While it sits and rots for all this time your energy goes towards
    trying to move this crap outa the system.  When even fruit is added
    to the rotting pile of flesh your stomach can't digest either one now.
    
    The book has some very convincing arguements about how meat and dairy
    products are not needed and even harmfull.  A couple come to mind:
    
    	Human milk is for human babies.  Cow's milk is for baby cows. 
    Wouldn't you feel silly suckling a milk cow.
    
    	If you put a baby in a room with an APPLE and a RABBIT, which
    one would he eat and which one would he play with?  (He's not going
    to bite the rabbit's head off and play with the apple)
    
    
    
    With all the people in their 50's now that are dieing from cancer
    and all the other unnecessary health problems I think it's time
    to rethink what we are throwing into our bodies and expecting our
    systems to just accept it.  We obviously don't run on BIG MACS,
    FRIES and MALTS.
    
    Check out the book (and then send contributions to my new health fund)
    
    Cowboy
    

    Re.18
    
    
       The only thing you should eat between rising and noon is fruit. ?
    
    I would pass out, and wither away to nothing if I followed one of those
    Fad diets. The book no doubt has some good points but for someone like
    me it would totally throw my body out of wack. What does it say about 
    people with fast metabolisms ? On that diet with such minimal calories
    I would starve. As it stands now I eat anywhere from 3 to 6 meals a day 
    (what you consider a meal and I consider are probably  two totally
    different things). I am currently physically active (Hockey, Workouts,
    and I RoadRAce Motorcycles) and I'm near 30 years old. My body "clock"
    has not slowed down one bit. My wieght has stayed constant for 8 years
    now (within 5 lbs) except when I was powerlifting about 5 years ago I
    was about 12 lbs heavier.
    
      I can eat anything and not gain an ounce, and I'm no stringbean or
    Hulk for that matter. Just in good shape. I eat beef at least once a
    week,(Ilike it and its GOOD for you) the rest chicken,fish, and other
    protien sources along with a good complex carb, and fresh salad and
    veggies. 
    
    Why does the book say that beef and dairy products are bad ? The
    analogies of Cows and babies and apples and rabbits makes no sense to
    me, but a good balanced diet does. Nothing but friut until noon and
    veggies for dinner sounds unbalanced, unless you are spending a
    fourtune on suppliments.
    
     I think that beef and dairy products have gotten a bad rap in this
    country only because of abuse by the consumers. If more people ate a
    balance diet along with moderation and lowfat dairy products (if they
    choose) this country would have half of the heath problems it has
    today. 
    
    
    -M
    
    
     In visiting other countries (Europe, Mexico, Canada) I never see the
    obesity problem there as I do here.

    
    re: .8
    
    >> I'm waiting for you to post "before and after" pictures!   8^0
    
    
    Hahaha!  Keep waitin', =Bob=!!!     :-)
    
    re: .18
    
    But what about proteins from fish and poultry?  Calcium found in milk?
    Is that type of diet really giving your body all that it needs in terms
    of vitamins, minerals and proteins?
    
    From one who doesn't like alot of fruit and most veggies.  Ack.
    
    Cathmeister

    > > (We have been brainwashed.)
    
    > Who's "we"?  Me, or you?
    
    "we" is the general public.  I'm sure alot of the ol' crap is
    regenerated by people that don't know better.  Ol' crap that still
    goes around is: Every meal must contain each of the Four Basic Food
    Groups; Drink 8 cups of water each day; Drink milk with every meal;
    etc.
    
    This is what I'm referring to as "brainwashing".  The facts are
    becoming more obvious now.  The body does NOT like the Four Basic
    Food Groups all thrown together.  That's not hard to accept when
    you consider the digestive tract is basically chemical reactions
    and some chemicals just don't mix well.  
    
   >  Cowboy, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but you sound very much
   >  like the dreaded Born Again Christian that tries to convert the world
   >  to the "only Way".  [No knock on any BAC's in here, just an example].
    
    While I think that the "right way" should be considered the "only way",
    we are not going to always do the right thing.  It would be great if we
    atleast were aware of what IS the right way to eat.  The book (Fit for
    Life) makes the most sense to me, so far.  Sorry, if you felt I came on
    too strong but I feel that knowing what may be slowly killing us is an
    important think to be aware of.
    
   >  While I don't dispute that fruit is healthy, I have my doubts on a 100%
   >  fruit (vegetables included) diet.  The example of the baby, the apple
   >  and the rabbit in the same room was a bit far-fetched, to put it
   >  mildly...
   
    I don't think it's that far-fetched.  What would a baby wolf do in a room
    with an apple and a rabbit?  I bet he wouldn't be eating the apple and
    playing with the rabbit.
      
   > But, to each his own.  And, I'll still have once a week my BBQ'd steak,
   > with a salad and a beer, and apple pie and ice cream later on for
   > dessert...  
    
    If you ate according to the book for a week or so, then ate your BBQ
    dinner, you would definitely feel worse the morning after your BBQ
    dinner.  In fact, you probably would not feel the need for the BBQ
    dinner after eating "the other way".
    
    
   >  And again, no knocks on anybody, Christian or Vegetarian (Fruitarian?)
    
   >  Hawk
    
    
    Cowboy
    

    re: 21,22
    
    >    The only thing you should eat between rising and noon is fruit. ?
    
    > I would pass out, and wither away to nothing if I followed one of those
    >  Fad diets. The book no doubt has some good points but for someone like
    > me it would totally throw my body out of wack. What does it say about 
    > people with fast metabolisms ? On that diet with such minimal calories
    > I would starve. As it stands now I eat anywhere from 3 to 6 meals a day 
    
    Maybe you eat up to 6 meals a day because your body isn't getting what
    it's hungry for.  I eat 2 bananas on the way to work. (it's an hour
    drive)  In a couple of hours I'll have a peach and grapes or something.
    This usually is plenty until noon.  If not, then I'll eat some more
    fruit.  Remember, fruit is like candy in that it is sugar and is 
    immediately used by the body.  Unlike candy, fruit doesn't give you
    a "down" feeling later.
    
    > Why does the book say that beef and dairy products are bad ? The
    > analogies of Cows and babies and apples and rabbits makes no sense to
    > me, but a good balanced diet does. Nothing but friut until noon and
    > veggies for dinner sounds unbalanced, unless you are spending a
    > fourtune on suppliments.
    
    There are many people that alergic to milk.  What milk does to ALL of
    us is increase the mucus.  It also forms clumps that clog up the
    system.  Contrary to what we were taught, our bodies don't get much
    from beef.  We need amino acids to produce protein that we can us.
    Beef is in the wrong form to be able to do this.  Beef is basically
    dead meat.  
    
    As to needing milk to get calcium, all you need to do is sprinkle a
    SPOONFULL of seseme seeds on, say, a peanut butter sandwhich once a
    week to get all you need.  (And it's good too).
    
    Cowboy
    

    What would happen if we put a Cro-magnon baby in the same room with a
    rabbit and an apple?  Put my dog in the same situation and he'll
    probably play with both and wait around look for his regular bowl of
    kibble when he gets hungry.  By the way, humans are omniverous.
    
    I'd put more stock in a nutritional plan advocated by the Surgeon
    General, the AMA, the AHA, and others than one advocated by one author. 
    Some of this reminds me of someone who was into holistic medicine who
    tried to tell me that there was a big difference between vitamins made
    in a lab and vitamins made by nature.
    
    I've heard and read about some of these theories about eating/not
    eating certain combinations of foods at certain times of day.  I'm glad
    it's working for you, but with documented problems of improper
    vegetarianism I'll stick to what I'm doing.

    > I'd put more stock in a nutritional plan advocated by the Surgeon
    > General, the AMA, the AHA, and others than one advocated by one author.
    
    When my dad was in medical school there was only ONE class that dealt
    with the importance of nutrition.  If you ask the typical doctor today
    how to lose weight he will tell you to decrease your caloric intake.
    Sometimes I wonder if the AMA wants the public to always be on the
    verge of sickness.  The same goes for the whole medical field.  They
    have a big stake in our sicknesses.
    
    This isn't advocated by only one author.  There have been other people
    with similar ideas and there will be more in the future with better
    ideas.  But how can you get much better than simply eating REAL food
    that hasn't been processed and chemicalized.
     
    > Some of this reminds me of someone who was into holistic medicine who
    > tried to tell me that there was a big difference between vitamins made
    > in a lab and vitamins made by nature.
    
    There probably IS a difference, atleast in some of the ways that they
    are processed.  But, if you eat good food then you don't need
    supplements anyway.
    
    Cowboy
    

    >This way of eating is supposed to be the "way we were designed to eat".
    
    >With all the people in their 50's now that are dieing from cancer
    >and all the other unnecessary health problems I think it's time
    >to rethink what we are throwing into our bodies
    
    Do you have any idea what human life expectancy was when people were
    eating the "way we were designed to eat"?  What about nutrition?
    
    Dan

    "Eat well, get plenty of sleep, exercise regularly, die anyway."
    
    I love red meat and eat it regularly.  I love desserts and eat them
    regularly.  I enjoy a brewski on occasion.  I love a good cigar, and
    often pack a peench of Skoal while out in the woods.
    
    I feel healthy.  I guess moderation is the key.
    
    Mark.
    

    No, but I DO know that there was a lot problems from the lack of fresh
    fruit in the old days.  When sailors were on ships for weeks and
    months and scurvy was common.
    
    Don't get me wrong about this.  I don't claim to have all the answers.
    I've been interested in health and nutrition for years and have
    followed many kinds of diets and fads.  The idea of eating food that
    hasn't been processed isn't new.  What's new is eating food in the
    right combinations and at the time that your body is ready to use it.
    
    Get the book (it's probably at the library...for free)
    
    Cowboy
    

I know for sure that there's no way I could go out and play a match on
just fruit....

Used to be that people sat down and had bacon and eggs for breakfast and
had NO problem doing that.  Why?  Because they'd be out working in the
fields and clearing land all day, working that cholesterol and stuff
out of their system...  

The problems today I think stem from a largely sedentary society.

To do the kind of working out I'm doing now, and not eat much, or just
veggies would have me so out of it.  I can tell when my body needs fuel,
and I give it fuel....If I don't, I'm asking for trouble.  

I eat a lot of veggies anyway, and usually not much beef (perhaps once a
a week.).  I like chicken and fish too....

'Saw

    All this reminds me that the results of a study were just recently
    released concerning weight loss.
    
    Most people who are heavy and want to lose weight will lose weight, and
    then gain it back, and lose weight and gain it back, etc.
    
    And then there are those who are just heavy and live heavy.
    
    It's a relatively small amount of people who are successful in losing
    weight and keeping it off, which means behavior modification which a
    lot of the new fad weight loss clinics are preaching.
    
    Anyway the higher life expectancy among those two groups of people is
    the ones who remain consistently heavy over those who do diet to lose
    weight.
    
    So why should I diet?  I've already got blinding speed...
    
    Dan

> I know for sure that there's no way I could go out and play a match on
> just fruit....
    
    I bet you could...after a few days on this type of diet you will have
    more engergy and be more alert.
    
    The energy you will use comes from what you ate many hours before,
    not what you ate for breakfast.  Usually the "hungry" feeling occurs
    because what you are used to eating only "stimulates" you (ex: sweets).
    It's like you need your "sugar fix".
    
    The best type of food for endurance is carbos.
    

> Used to be that people sat down and had bacon and eggs for breakfast and
> had NO problem doing that.  Why?  Because they'd be out working in the
> fields and clearing land all day, working that cholesterol and stuff
> out of their system...  
    
    Eating bacon and eggs for breakfast will not give you any energy for
    the day.  It will sit in your stomach and rot.  Fruit will give you
    instant energy.

    RE: life expectancy when we ate like we were supposed to eat...
    
    If you put a person eating like he's supposed to eat and an apple in
    the same room and unleashed a sabre toothed tiger...enough said.
    
    RE: scurvy
    
    Scurvy is caused by the lack of ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) in the diet,
    not by the lack of fruits in general.  English sailors used to eat
    limes to counter the loss of ascorbic acid and that is why they became
    known as limies.
    
    	--dan'l

    I can't see fruits and vegetables giving sufficient complex
    carbohydrates to fuel an athlete.  They are primarily water and simple
    sugars (esp. fruit).  Give me the pastas, grains, and potatoes.

    > Most people who are heavy and want to lose weight will lose weight, and
    > then gain it back, and lose weight and gain it back, etc.
    
    > And then there are those who are just heavy and live heavy.
    
    > It's a relatively small amount of people who are successful in losing
    > weight and keeping it off, which means behavior modification which a
    > lot of the new fad weight loss clinics are preaching.
    
    We all probably were drilled by our parents, who were drilled by their
    parents to CLEAN YOUR PLATE, EAT YOUR VEGETABLES, and its tough to try
    to break old ideas.  Watch young kids eat.  Usually, if a wide variety
    of foods is available to them, they will only eat when they need to and
    only eat what their bodies need.  Its only when "helpful" adults try to
    get them to CLEAN THEIR PLATES, that kids will run into trouble.  Of
    course, young kids grow up into bigger kids that suddenly think that
    pop and ice cream should be the main course.
     
    

    Don't puke Hawk!!! Just think of this as a chemical lab in the pit of
    your bowels!!
    
    Fruit only stays in your stomach around 20 minutes (bananas are
    longer).  It doesn't need to stay since it's nearly already used
    by the body.  The exception to this is if fruit is piled on rotting
    flesh and churned-kinda like gramma's thunking butter churn-to
    attempt to absorb this disgusting mess into the body.  Since there
    are so many different kinds of foods in this thick-n-chunky mixture
    that means that all different chemical breakdowns are going on at
    once.  (ask a chemist what happens when you try to do 5 different
    chemical experiements in ONE test tube).  Needless to say it takes
    hours and mucho energy to tackle this bad taco.
    
    Hope this helps, 
    
    Born Again Carroteer
    
    Cowboy

    > Yabbut(tm), Cowboy, where does tofu fit-in in all of this?
    
    > How's that, 'Saw?  :-)
    
    > Gotta run.  Gettin' a couple quick new tires for Der Bratwurst Burner,
    > then gettin' a couple pizzas for der munchkin Hawksters, then off to
    > der Great Woods to groove on YES!  Hope to see many a bald head in der
    > crowd, like I saw at the Santana concert 2 years ago...  :-)
    
    > Hawk
    
    I dunno, but yur making me hungry... :-)
    

    I'm stayin' out of this one although....
    
    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn

    
    If an apple falls in a room and hits a rabbit, and no one's there to
    hear the rabbit scream, does he make a sound?  Moreover, did the rabbit
    lose any weight, other than defecating when the apple hit him?
    
    Veggies:  nothing so wrong with veggies that a glob of cheese sauce or
    hollindaise sauce can't cure.
    
    Think I'll hit KFC after work.  Those new honey BBQ wings look good.
    
    Dickstah
    

    "Fit 4 Life" Shmit for life!!
    
    I just got me a new book "Flatulent for Life"
    I love the "DIET"
    I get ups in the A.M., have a beer.  Then have a bowl of cold baked
    beans and a piece of cold pepperoni pizza.  For a midmorning snack,
    have another beer and half a pound of unshelled peanuts, shell and all.
    For lunch, more beans and a "heartburn Special" pizza.  This consists
    of pepperoni, hot sausage, jalapeno peppers and lots of hot sauce. 
    Wash all of this down with more beer.  For a midafternoon snack, eat a
    half a gallon of Ice Cream(any flavor) so the next morning when you are
    passing the lunch pizza and the "burn" is there, you can root for the
    ice cream to pass and cool ya down.   For dinner, eat a mushroom
    cheese-steak sub and wash it down with, yep you guessed it, more beer.
    For a late night snack, down a six-pack and a bag of pretzels.
    
    Do this for the winter and keep a bic lighter handy, and you can single
    handedly heat a small home.
    
    Nobody I ever knew who has followed this diet has ever had any problems
    with irregularity.  Come to think of it, nobody I know who has followed
    this diet has lived more than a year and a half.  But they died fat and
    happy.
    
    JaKe
    

    IS this diet for losing weight, maintaining weight, or what ?
    
    I just don't see playing in a round robin type tournamet eating fruit.
    The body needs complex carbs for energy.Period. Fruit is a simple carb,
    correct ? So I should forget about carbloading prior to the big match
    and eat apples ? 
    
    If the diet is a sports diet then why don't I see any top level
    atheletes endorsing it's results. (Like Navralotova SP. did with eat to
    win). Not that an endorsement is the key but face it I have never been
    playing a sport and heard this type of diet before. Is it strickly for
    weight loss ? 
    
    I'm willing to try new diets but this one leans way to far toward a
    vegitarian diet, and those are IMO usless.
    
    -M 

    re: m
    
    This isn't a weight loss diet although everyone probably loses weight
    until they get to their "normal" weight.  This is a way of eating.
    
    Football players used to sit down to a big steak and potato or a
    dozen eggs or whatever.  Lately, I've heard that some have pasta, which
    will give them real, long-lasting energy.  The steak and potato
    combination is a bad one in the stomach. Besides, the fact that the
    energy and time spent to digest the steak makes this a bad meal
    before a game. 
    
    I bet if you asked sports pros what they eat before their game they
    would all give you a different answer.  The energy that is used
    during a game doesn't come from the previous meal.  It comes from
    what was eaten atleast a day before.
    
    The thought of eating fruit all morning didn't used to appeal to me
    either, until I tried it.  Now, its like munching on a bowl of candy.
    A pile of grapes and other fruit is MUCH more satisfying than, say,
    a bowl of cereal, or eggs and bacon.  It just takes a couple of days
    to get the mind thinking 'healthy' food.  
    
    The more you look into fruit and vegetables the more you find you
    can do with them.  Its not boring at all.
    
    >     I'm willing to try new diets but this one leans way to far toward a
    > vegitarian diet, and those are IMO usless.
    
    The best bet is to get the book and read it to understand it. 
    Personally, I'd rather live my life (short or long) healthy and feeling
    good--not over-weight and sickly.  This is the best way to health that
    I've seen yet. 
    
    Cowboy
    

    	I start each day with a Zagnut bar and a bottle of Jolt cola
    and I feel great...
    
    				/Don

    > Which reminds me, Cowboy, what do you drink during the day, or does the
    > high water content of the massive quantities of fruit you eat sustain
    > your body's need for moisture?
    
    > Don't tell me all you drink is water (?).
    
    > Hawk
    
    Usually, I put away about 2 Liters of Scotch.  This way the Damn diet
    my wife put me on doesn't bother me as much.  No, actually with the
    high water content of fruit and vegetables I don't get thirsty much.
    I do drink demineralized water during the day, some.  The book doesn't
    advise drinking much liquids during meals since this would delute the
    chemicals in the digestive system.  The good thing about this way of
    eating is that you can take it as far as you want to.  If you follow
    the book completely your health will probably be about as good as
    possible.  But, if you only try to eat fruit until noon then you will
    also see positive changes.  This is what my sister-in-law does.  She
    eats fruit until noon then eats whatever she wants for lunch and
    dinner.  After dinner she puts away afew beers.
    
    Born Again Carroteer
    
    Cowboy
    

    Way back, there was some discussion of the basic 4 food groups.
    
    Believe it or not, the current issue of Fortune has a copy of the
    revised "food pyramid" that has been developed by the feds, with the
    consultation of various nutritionally oriented organizations.  I'll try
    to remember to bring in a copy Monday and post it.  The Beef Council
    and Dairy Council are both lobbying *hard* against it's passage,
    because it recommends very few servings a day of meat and dairy
    products (milk, cheese, yogurt, etc.)
    
    Also Monday, I have my first meeting with a nutritionist.  When you
    start passing out in staff meetings, this stuff gets more than a little
    "up close and personal".  Probably caused by the heat and low blood
    pressure.  If she has anything of interest to the general community,
    I'll pass that along also.
    
    A&W

If we lay aside, for a moment, this Great Debate about what the right foods
are, we can address the problem at hand.

You've got to put gas in your car to make it go.  No gas, no go.
They haven't developed a pint-size, safe, nuclear-fusion reactor to go in
there, so you still have to gas up to go.

Your body is the same way.  If you don't put fuel into your body, it
ain't gonna go.  The body is pretty smart, in that in situations at the
extremes, it basically shuts down from the outside first.

(For examples, in situations of extreme cold, the body will shut down
fingers and toes, to preserve warmth in the torso and brain area).

Bottom line A&W, you gotta eat.

And I think I speak for the rest of SPORTS here, if we hear of you neglecting
to fuel up any more, we'll send Hawk out there, because he is still the
Bailiff of Record, and he'll bring his ruler.  We'll leave it up to him
just what it is he should whack.....


You best be eatin' and eatin' right!

'Saw

    >     Way back, there was some discussion of the basic 4 food groups.
    
    
    >                                                     The Beef Council
    > and Dairy Council are both lobbying *hard* against it's passage,
    > because it recommends very few servings a day of meat and dairy
    > products (milk, cheese, yogurt, etc.)
    
    It's a sad situation that groups of lobbyists will have a voice
    in what the general public will eventually believe as the 'truth'.
    I'm not surprised tho'.  There's alot of people and companies that
    would be in financial straits if everyone quit buying meat and 
    dairy products.  

    'Saw -
    
    Thanks for caring.  The truly scarey part of all of this is that *this
    week* I've *been* eating (for a change), and that's when all of this
    stuff started to happen.
    
    I've got folks here at work dragging me up to the caf for regular
    breaks also.  It's nice to have friends :-)
    
    A&W

    A&W,
    
    I was told (by the Nurse here @ work) that it is not uncommon for
    women to have low blood pressure.
    
    On another note, I've read that people who exercise on a regular
    basis will also burn off more calories even when resting than those
    who don't exercise.
    
    Jo

You know I used to have a weight problem until I realized a was a 
bolemic(sp) and was forgetting to purge.

I'm fine now though...

HTH

daryll

    
    Gee, you'd think with a nickname like 'cowboy' you'd picture
    a guy chawin on some big ol hunk a cow and washin it down
    with some cheap whiskey. Not some guy eating a banana and 
    drinking distilled water! 8^)))))))))))))))))
    
    
    
    Steve

>    Do you have any idea what human life expectancy was when people were
>    eating the "way we were designed to eat"?  What about nutrition?
    
    Probably a few hundred years.  Just ask Noah, Moses, and Methuselah who
    live to be 969 (oldest on record).
    
    Re: T factor and weight loss
    
    I hate to spoil the party, but how long will you keep the weight off?
    I can lose weight at will, but keeping it off is a problem.  You really
    have to change your whole style of eating (habits that are hard to
    break).
    
    Mike

    >	I start each day with a Zagnut bar and a bottle of Jolt cola
    >and I feel great...
    
    As Oscar Madison explained to Felix Unger after Felix was complaining
    about his diet, "Candy and soda are energy food!"
    
    Dan

    re: Steve
    
    Yeah, I DID drink alota whiskey and fillup on cow parts.  But that's
    the ol' days now.  I'm happy to say that I'm among the Modern Day
    Ranglers.  While still being a horse owner I haven't forgotten what
    happens you smear poopage off your tennis shoes onto your wife's
    clean carpet.  The Rangler today is more conscience of one's health.
    
    Happy Trails...
    
    Carroteer Cowboy
    

    
    It's the new Cowboy of the 90's!! Way to go! Stay out of dem 
    pasture pies! 
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    Me, I prefer the Refrigerator Perry Seafood Diet...
    
    ...you see food, you eat it!   :-)

    
    Hopalong Cassidy and Red Ryder didn't eat no rabbit food or monkey
    chow, and Roy Rogers didn't open a chain of health food stores, now did
    he?
    
    Gene Autry?  Well, I have my doubts about *him*.
    
    Dickstah
    

    Oklahoma has a small chain of Roy Rogers quick burger joints.
    They serve meat-type burgers and other roadkill delights.
    
    No meat for me anymore.  Just give me a big ol plate of
    red beans and I sing to my honey in two-part harmony
    the rest of the night...

    At the risk of trying to say something serious in here, I'd like
    to add my two cents on nutrition as it pertains to athletics.
    
    First, a comment on Cowboy's (wife-induced) diet.  A friend of mine
    here in the Springs who is a sub-2:40 marathoner adheres strictly
    to that very diet, which puts the kabosh to any statement that such
    a diet makes athletic pursuits impossible.
    
    Second, I can't imagine myself on such a diet.
    
    Third, I agree completely with what 'Saw said about needing fuel.

    What needs to be understood, however, is that that fuel can come
    from many different, equally effective, sources.  Without the fuel,
    you don't make it.  
    
    I'll digress here with a little anecdotal evidence: A friend was
    running Leadville two years ago and ran into stomach problems.  He
    couldn't keep anything down.  Finally, he gave up trying to eat and
    just pushed on.  At 80 miles, he started to fade. At 88 miles, he was
    down to a very difficult, very slow walk.  At 94 miles, he was
    literally crawling, hands and knees.  He managed to crawl for over a
    mile before collapsing, unable to move.  He was carried off the course,
    a DNF at 95 miles.  He ran out of fuel. He mind said go; his body said
    no.  He was well-conditioned and experienced at the distance.  He
    simply ran out.
    
    Fourth, vegetarianism does not mean living on fruits and vegetables
    alone.  Nor does it mean being skinny and sickly.  I have been a
    vegetarian (ovo-lacto) for almost 19 years.  I am forever 5-10 pounds
    overweight and I am able to sustain aerobic activity for over 12 hours.
    Gail has been a vegetarian for 12 years.  I defy any of you to keep up
    with her all the way up a long, steep mountain trail.  My kids, 10 and
    8, have been vegetarians all their lives and they are in fantastic
    shape.
    
    Last, and perhaps most importantly, there exists no diet that is
    right for everyone.  "Wouldn't it be a real drag if we were all
    the same?" -- Dr. John, the Night Tripper.  What works well for
    one could be terrible, even life-threatening, for another.  We all
    need to work out what works best for each of us.
    
    What to eat is very high on the list of things that ultrarunners
    talk about.  Some do it on burgers and buds, some on fruits and
    vegetables.  Whatever works best for you is what you should eat.
    
    Sid 

    Reprinted without permission from the October, 1990 issue of
    UltraRunning magazine:
    
    
                    Idaho Centennial Backcountry Challenge
    
    Stanley, Idaho                                       July 27, 1990
    130 miles, trails, 30,000' climb
    
    1.  Wendell Robison, WY                                   45:04:44
    6 starters
    
    Stanley, Idaho, is a mecca for white-water enthusiasts -- there are 29
    rafting companies operating on the local rivers.  Their presence
    dominates the town; restaurants and hotels are packed with rafters. But
    on July 27, Stanley managed to squeeze in six more thrillseekers, who
    took to the White Clouds and Boulder Mountains just east of town.  They
    were to face a formidable challenge:  130 miles of trails with very
    little support (there were no official aid stations, but some spouses
    did meet the runners at several locations), a lot of vertical climb,
    and a little bit of route finding. 
    
    Of the six, only one, Wendell Robison from Sheridan, Wyoming, managed
    to finish.  He had scouted all of the course on the Fourth of July
    weekend and knew his way perfectly; he also knew what would be required
    in terms of effort.  He came prepared and he finished in 45 hours and 4
    minutes, all without sleep! 
    
    Aside from his obvious natural ability (Wendell did the Grand Slam last
    year), the preparation and attention to food intake separated Wendell
    from the rest of the runners; the best anyone else managed was about
    58-60 miles, or less than one day's effort.  Personally, I found my
    energy shot after 55 miles and eventually dropped out. While talking
    with Wendell later, I managed to find out that he consumed an
    incredible (to me, at least) amount of food. 
    
    First, in terms of fluid intake, Wendell drank copiously while on the
    trail.  All water was obtained from springs; he drank enough water to
    keep his urine clear and managed to urinate every 45 minutes, or even
    more frequently. 
    
    Second, in terms of solid foods, Wendell consumed Army-issue MREs (Meal
    Ready to Eat, formerly known as C-Rats).  Some were entrees such as
    beans in tomato sauce; others were desserts like chocolate nut cake.
    Wendell did offer me some of both while on the trail, and other than
    the packaging I found them quite acceptable.  The packaging was a very
    heavyweight tin foil, with edges sharp enough to warrant your attention
    to avoid cutting your lips. 
    
    Here is a summary of his intake:
    
    Prior to the start (3:00-4:00 a.m.)
     4 slices of bread              400 calories
     2 cans of Exceed supplement             500
     bananas                                 100
     oranges                                 100
    
    Start to Germania Creek (5:00-6:00 p.m.)
     6 Army MRE entrees
       (250-300 calories each)              1800
     2 Army MRE desserts                     800
     8 Granola bars (125 cal./bar)          1000
     2 PowerBars (225 cal. each)             450
     1/2 apple turnover                      150
     40 pieces of candy                      400
    
    Aid Station (6:00 p.m.)
     2 cans of Ensure                        500
     2 Cheese sandwiches                     600
    
    Germania Creek to Galena Lodge
       (6:00-9:45 p.m.)
     1 PowerBar                              225
     2 MREs                                  500
     3 Granola bars                          400
    
    Aid Station (9:45-10:05 p.m.)
     1/2 cup of soup                         150
     2 cans of Ensure                        500
     1 sandwich                              300
    
    Galena Lodge to Galena Summit
       (10:05 p.m.-12:30 a.m.)
     1 MRE                                   400
     2 Granola bars                          250
    
    Galena Summit (12:30 a.m.)
     1 can of Exceed                         250
     1/2 Turkey Dogwood sandwich             400
    
    Galena Summit to Chemetkan
       (12:40-1:45 a.m.)
     1 Granola bar                           125
    
    Aid Station (1:45-2:30 a.m.)
     1 MRE                                   250
     1 can of Ensure                         250
     1/2 Turkey Dogwood sandwich             400
    
    Chemetkan to Vienna (2:30-9:00 a.m.)
     3 MRE entrees                           750
     2 MRE desserts                          800
     4 Granola bars                          500
     1 PowerBar                              225
    
    Aid Station (9:00 a.m.)
     1 can of Ensure                         250
     1 Cheese sandwich                       300
    
    Vienna to Smiley Creek Lodge
        (9:00-10:30 a.m.)
     2 Granola bars                          250
    
    Aid Station (10:30-10:40 a.m.)
     2 cans of Ensure                        500
    
    Smiley Creek Lodge to Champion Lake Trailhead
        ((10:40 a.m.-1:45 p.m.)
     1 MRE dessert                           400
     3 Granola bars                          400
     1 PowerBar                              225
    
    Aid Station (1:45-2:00 p.m.)
     1 can of Ensure                         250
     1/2 Turkey Dogwood sandwich             400
    
    Champion Lake Trailhead to Finish
        (2:00 p.m.-2:04 a.m.)
     3 MRE entrees                           750
     2 MRE desserts                          800
     8 Granola bars                         1000
     1 PowerBar                              225
    
    Total calories consumed:              19,225
    
    Wendell estimates his total energy expenditure at roughly 100 calories
    per mile plus another 100 calories per 1,000' of elevation gain. With
    130 miles and 30,000' of climb, he would have burned about 16,000
    calories in all. He's not sure about his estimate for the calories used
    for the vertical climb, but it seems accurate enough. The main point to
    observe is that he kept hydrated and ate a lot; he must have an
    excellent digestive system, too! 
    
                                                        Fred Pilon

    Sid -
    
    I've eaten C rations and K rations, and I can really understand what
    the article was saying about MRE packaging.  But remember that it's
    designed to keep the food edible for a minimum of 7 years, in all sorts
    of weather.  For those of you here in Mass, the Natick Army Research
    station does the research for both clothing and food for all of the
    armed services.  I've known folks who worked there, which is where I
    find out this good stuff.
    
    The next reply is a copy of the Dept of Agriculture's new food pyramid,
    for your reading pleasure.  
    
    I've gotten more good info from this note than I did from the
    nutritionist this morning. :-(  The other piece of good news is that
    what I am eating is good stuff, I just need to be more consistent about
    eating it.  So, I'm working on it.
    
    A&W

        U.S. Dept of Agriculture Proposed Nutrition Pyramid


                                   / \
                                  /   \
                   Fats, Oils,   / use \
                    Sweets      /sparingly   
                               /         \        
                              /-----------\
              Milk, Yogurt,  /      |      \  Meat, Poultry, Fish,
               Cheese       / 2 - 3 | 2 - 3 \  Dry Beans, Eggs, 
                           /Servings|Servings\  Nuts
                          /         |         \
                         /---------------------\
                        /Vegetables |  Fruit    \ 
                       /  3 - 5     |   2 - 4    \
                      /   Servings  |  Servings   \
                     /              |              \
                    /-------------------------------\
                   /                                 \
                  /   Bread, Cereal, Rice, Pasta      \
                 /               6 - 11 servings       \
                /                                       \
               /-----------------------------------------\
              /                 daily                     \
             /_____________________________________________\
       
    A serving of bread is 1 slice, 1/2 cup rice or pasta, or 3/4 cup dry
    cereal.
    
    A serving of fruits or vegetables is 1 medium piece, or 1/2 cup cut up
    or cooked.  1/2 cup juice counts as 1 serving in this category.
    
    A serving of dairy products is 1 cup of milk or yogurt, or 1 1/2 oz of
    cheese.
    
    A serving of meat is 2 oz (that means a pork chop or steak is 2
    servings minimum).  A serving of dried beans is 1 cup cooked.  A
    serving of nuts is 1/2 cup.
    
    
    Personally, I have a real problem saying that 2 oz of meat is a
    serving, since I don't know of anyone, anywhere, that serves it in that
    small of portions.  But there's the current "official" guidelines, for
    what it's worth.
    
    A&W
    

    
    Re.-1
    
    Regaurding 2 oz of meat as a serving, The body (if my memory serves me
    correctly) can only assimilate 30 grams of protien at a time. 2oz is
    roughly 56 grams, so eating a large steak for din din (10 -16 oz) is a
    protien overload.
    
      That MRE diet is something else, all those calories, alot of it
    empty.  It worked for him I guess, so don't mess with success.
    The diet I use works for me, and I change it as needed. Thats why I am
    reluctant to change diets when every 3 days there a new one that
    shatters the old myths. Before it was steak and eggs, then whole grain
    cerials, now nothing but fruit. 
    
    I'll stick to my Spaggetti at 9:00 and wash it down with watever and
    then eat fruit. 
    
    -TH

     
     Never eat anything larger than your head!!!!!
    
    ct

    My personal opinion is that exersize really does help clean out your
    system.
    
    I grew up in a family of farmers that went back for generations.  Most
    of them worked (physically) hard at it.  Many of them were long lived. 
    Diet was never really an issue.
    
    When I was born, I had 4 grandparents, and 4 great-grandparents still
    living.  I still have 3 grandparents living and upwards of a dozen
    great-aunts and great-uncles stil living from their generation.  1
    great-grandfather lived to be 96 (I think).
    
    I never remember any special emphasis on particular foods other than
    everyone ate large meals and no-one was particularly overweight.  We
    had a large garden and used everything produced, but mainly to cut
    costs.  Bacon and eggs was very common for breakfast.  Buttering bread
    involved at least a tablespoon size.  Milk was drank at every meal. 
    Old-fashoned balenced meals were pertty much the normal.
    
    All my siblings and I were very active and encouraged to be.  1 brother
    ran a 3:00-3:10 marathon at age 18-19.  The rest of us had similar
    similar track/Xcountry involvments.  The older generations could work
    right alongside of us on th farm.
    
    The attitude presented was that you worked hard, ate well, and didn't
    worring too much about what you ate.  It seemed to work for a number of
    people.
    
    Commander Scott

Anyone have any info on this L-Tryptophan controversy?

I've heard a couple of rumblings about it from a news report, and a few
folks have recommended I stop taking my Amino Fuel 2000 (which contains
52.2mg of L-Tryp) until The Powers That Be decide if it's safe...

'Saw

    My own personal food pyramid:
    
    
            ____________________________________
            \                                 /
             \   BEER AND PIZZA              /
              \                             /
               ____________________________
                \                         /
                 \  Everything Else      /
                  \                     /
                   \                   /
                    __________________
                     \               /
                      \  Healthy    /
                       \   Crap    /
                        \         /
                         \       /
                          \     /
                           \   /
                            \ /
    

I've been playing 'catch up' with ::SPORTS this week, so I'm a little late with 
my $.02 worth on this topic, but here goes:

1. A 'diet' seldom works.  The only way to really lose weight for most people is
   to change their eating habits.  I lost 30 lbs. several years ago, and did it
   by changing the way I ate totally.  Included in this for me was giving up 
   red meat, but that is not right for everyone.  I'll bet that anyone you know
   who does UltraslimDietJennyEtc. will gain back most or all of the weight they
   lose.

2. Active people need to eat more and different things that sediantary (sp?).
   For people who participate in sports, complex carbs which can be stored 
   for future use are vital.  I've heard about the 'fruit until noon' stuff, 
   and it does have some merrit, in that certain foods block the digestions of  
   others.  Also, some combinations are beneficial [e.g. ascorbic acid helps the 
   body absorb iron.)

3. With the amount of vitamins and minerals that your body can absorb from
   from suppliments, their single greatest benefit is to give us expensive and 
   colorful urine.

4. I suspect that there is more to the tie between cancer and the food we eat 
   than meets the eye.  All the new chemical fertilizers, insecticides we use 
   on produce, and all the hormones, etc that we use on livestock could very
   easily prove to be what is making us sick.  On the other hand, the 'organic'
   food industry are such opotunistic price gougers, it is tough for me to get 
   involved.

5. I'm still wating for those before and after pictures of the Cath-Meister. 8^)

I'm about to violate my personal code of no more than one page notes, so I won't
go on.

=Bob=

    Dont knock all fad diets, there in place to give you a mental edge.
    I used Ultra slim fast from October 90 thru March 91 and lost 30lbs.
    Since March (gave up the diet to start drinking during the NBA
    playoffs) I gained back a total of 2LBS and still drink beer and eat
    mostly the same foods.   I due admit that the slimfast itself really
    wasnt what made me lose weight, I could of had fruit for breakfast and
    lunch instead of slimfast and ended with the same result.  Its what I
    was not eating more than what I ate.  But the slimfast prevented me
    from eating a sandwich and fries for lunch, or flapjacks or eggs and
    bacon for b-fast.  If your a big eater and cant really cut down on
    what you like it eat, lose 20lbs then gain, lose, gain and so own, 
    what Id suggest it attempting to build up your muscle's.  Muscle's
    burn more than fat.  A very muscular person will burn alot more
    calories in a day doing normal activities then a non-musular person.
    
    So if you cant change what you eat, plan on 1hr of muscle building
    exercise a day for life.  Dont expect results in less then 3-5 months.
    
    							M_Air_Brooks
    30lbs down, now if I could just exchange about 5-10 percent of
    my body fat for muscle Id be all set !!!! (and drop about 15+LBS)  

Bottom line, it comes down to three factors:


	a) Diet.  Or more correctly a change in eating habits.
	   A balanced diet, low on fat (ie less that 30% calories
	   coming from fat), and no gorging.

	b) Exercise.  Regular, healthy exercise.

	c) The willingness to make BOTH a habit for the rest of your life.



We are a sedentary society.  We'd rather watch TV than DO something.  that's
cool, but in balance.

You can do slimfast, but chances are you'll put it right back on.  Same with
any diet alone....

You can exercise all you want, but if all you're eating is cookies, ice
cream etc, you're cancelling out some of the benefits...


JMHO,
'Saw

    I did Ultra Slimfast for lunch only, probably 2-3 times a week, and,
    because of a recent divorce, ate a lot less of everything but junk
    food, and I lost 30 pounds in 6 months...  
    
    I think that, for me, the benefit in Slimfast was in realizing that I
    don't HAVE to eat breakfast every day to survive - basically, I think
    my stomach shrunk...
    
    I follow the pyramid diet of a few back (love it!), and have only
    gained about 5 pounds back...   
    
    Actually, my pyramid would be:
    
    ---------------------------------------
    \    BEER - No, I said BUD LIGHT     /   Average several units per day
     \     Cafeteria Slop - us. burgers /    Average three times a week 
      \          Frozen Pizza          /     Two or three meals a week
       \------------------------------/
        \ Frozen Spicy Wings + Fries /     
         \ Good (Restaurant) Burgers/       Two meals per week                                                   
          \ Total Cereal, fruit if /
           \    not spoiled...    /         
            \   Grilled Cheese   /
             \  McD + BK crap   /
              \----------------/
               \ Mom's cookin'/             Once in a while
                \or Something/
                 \ good for /
                  \  me... /
                   \      /
                    \    /
                     \  /
                      \/
    
    And my exercise regimen is equally impressive, mostly consisting of
    low-weight curls, with plenty of reps...  ;-)
    
    ML