Conference 7.286::sports_91

 Magic already is a legend Doc, with TWA. He's got more traveling miles logged
 on the court than Sanunu has....

 ;^)

 mike

    SInce Russel is better than Wilt because of the number of title won,
    then Magic, and Worthy are much better than Lawwy or Kewin or Wobert
    becuse they won more titles.  CeltsIllogic at its best !!
    
    ;_0
    
    JD

    Well said JD !
    
    
    Oh yeah, would somebody post Magic's numbers for the playoffs vs. Laarry
    The Limp ?
    
    Dr Three_Out_of_Five-Peat
    

Somebody got a kleenex for the Doc?

The spuge is so thick in here you could cut it with an knife 8^)

'Saw

    Saw, 'spooge (tm)' is spelt thusly.
    
    HTH,
    
    Mark.

    
    Is it illogic to say that Magic is the greater player based on
    sustained performance, number of titles, etc., but that Larry was
    better in his prime?  I'm not necessarily saying that, but it is 
    clear that Magic was still leading his team to titles after Bird 
    had begun his slide, and I see no inherent contradiction in 
    recognizing the fact that we're not seeing the same Bird but that 
    Magic is as good as ever.  
    
    I do remember sometime around 1984-85 Sports Illustrated crowning
    Bird as the best in a feature...
    
    glenn
    
          

    Greg Kite has two rings, same as Wilt.  Therefore, he's Wilt's equal,
    so there nyeah nyeah nyeah nyeah nyeah.  
    
    
    py

Markie --

The correct central Connecticut area pronounciation of the word in question
is SP-YOU-GED.  

As in, he was so excited when he saw Madonna that he laquered his woodie
too much, lost sight of what he was doing and SPUGED all over himself...


Hope this helps 8^)

'Saw

    Mac,
    
    Number of titles is either used or not used.  You caint use it
    subjectively, like many Celts fans do when making their RUssell
    arguement.
    
    Heck, the 'glory' days of the Celts are ancient history.  CLinging to
    it is like Yankee fans bringing up the glory days of the 20's, 30' and
    50's.....has no bearing now on anything.  
    
    I'd say that Wilt was the greatest center of all time, with Kareem
    second and Russell third.  But for the greatest playoff center of all
    time, I'd have Russell nosing out Kareem.  But as Mr. Hendry said, it
    is very difficult comparing players of different eras.  I mean Russ
    would be a BUck Williams type power forward in today's world.  The top
    players of today would eat up the old timers if transported back in
    time to play them prime-to-prime.  Imagine Bob Cousey trying to guard
    Magic, or Isiah, KJ, Drexler????  Bob would be spinning...
    
    JD

    Mr Hendry, now, JD?  Heck, I'm not *THAT* old.  Am I?
    
    John

 I'll give you Magic over Larry as better but as Glenn said earlier in their
 careers you'd have to givew Larry the nod simply because Magic was not the
 outside threat that he now is.

 Worthy over McHale is a joke....Worthy's only advantage is speed. Mchale
 has a better post game, is a better rebounder, defender....

 mike

Anybody notice how close the Flakers came to blowing it last night? 
Could it have anything to do with the bad pass/turnover/poor shot
selection of one aging erstwhile Legend...?

    Just heard on the radio, special report from ABC news the following
    scoop,
    
    The report said that Magic Johnson has tested positive for AIDS and
    will retire from basketball.
                                                 
    Sheez
    
    
    JaKe
    

	My wife just called and said she heard the same thing on the news.  
I didn't know wether to believe her or not, she's been home on disability 
and I thought she might have got into the over-proof jamican rum again.

mc

    JUst heard on the Radio. Magic JOhnson has been confirmed as having
    AIDS. HE has just announced his retirement, effectively immediately.
    News Conference at 6PM est.
    

My wife just called me with the same news. She's home w/ some sort of flu and
said that he is going to have a press conference at 3:00 PST to announce this.

Didn't the poor guy just get married? 



Is Isiah worried ?...just kidding (not kidding about the announcement from Magic)
...nobody rip my head off please...

Metz

    I don't know if this has been entered somewhere else yet, but I just
    heard on the radio that Magic Johnson is retiring because he has been
    tested positive for the AIDS virus.  Don't know any other details yet,
    but this just came out.
    
    Really a shame,
    
    
    Spud

    
    
     Is this true !!!  If not it's a pretty sick try at humor !!
    
    
     Whats The Deal ??
    
    Big Game

    According to our sports station KFAN, this was reported by CNN:  The
    Lakers have called a 5pm (Central) news conference to announce Magic's
    retirement.  They stated that he tested positive with the HIV virus.
    He has missed the Lakers first three games due to the flu.
    
    
    Spud

    A truly sad day for the NBA!  Unfortunately its all true.  He's called
    a press conference to begin in the Forum in 15 minutes.  My office
    radio is tuned in and ready and I'll post an update here.
    
    Mike

    	Ditto here.  A girl I work with heard it on the radio.  You
    know despite all the funning we do in here this really sucks.
    
    				/Don

    The Lakers have confirmed the reports that Magic will retire and that
    he does have the HIV virus
    
    
    Spud

 Heard it, too.   What a stunning and sad piece of news.   He had already
 sat out the first few Lakers games with what was called "flu-like
 symptoms".
 
 Maybe, just maybe, some good can come out of this.  I don't know how but
 maybe somehow we'll focus on the disease itself and quit with the
 misguided hysterics that have surrounded it.
 
 We don't need the B-2 bomber ... we need an AIDS vaccine.   I hope Magic
 can succeed for as long as he can in spite of this terrible blow.
 
 Bob Hunt

      Just heard on the radio that Magic Johnson has tested positive of the
    Aids virus and is planning a press conference announcing his retirement
    from BB.....To bad,  I just wonder if its true and how he contracted
    it.
    
    
    	Tim

    Note:  He does not have AIDS, he tested HIV+.  They were clear to
    point out the difference.  He says he's fine relatively speaking,
    but the toll of a full season would tire him out.  He plans
    to become an HIV+ spokesman.  No word yet if he would try to still
    be on the Olympic team...

    His wife has not been affected.  Before the conference, he called
    Larry, Isiah and Michael to tell them...

    He will probably not play in the Olympics.  He was tested to fulfill
    insurance policy requirements.   Again, he is still healthy and does
    NOT have AIDS.  He only tested HIV+.  He had a hell of a lot more poise
    through this than I ever would have.  What guts he showed.

	I just heard the press conference and it's true.  Magic has tested
	positive for the HIV virus.  His docors have said that there is no
	way to determine how long (1 year-10 years is reasonable) it will
	take, if ever, to develop the symptoms of AIDS, but that the stresses
	associated with professional basketball are likely to add to the
	demands on his immune system.  With that advice, Magic has decided
	to retire from professional basketball.

    
    	Sad...
    
    B.A.
    

    I read Roy's note in the Basketball.stats notesfile and then told a 
    couple of co-workers... We could not believe it... I sat down and 
    told my 12 year old boy before the press conference... 
    He cried during it... He still doesn't understand Aids
    and how Magic could let this happen to him... I've tried to explain it
    to him.. My wife is going down and get some good information so we can
    sit down and talk to him about it... The youth needs to know about this
    deadly disease and to be aware of it...

    Rick

    First, Magic thanks from the bottom of my heart for all the enjoyment
    you've given me as I watched your expertise on the floor and the skills
    you demonstrated both on the court and off the court.
    
    Second, I hope the sleeze tabloids pass up the story. (fat chance)
    
    Third, I really admire the way he composed himself less than 24 hours
    after being told what he had especially in light of what he had just
    lost and WILL lose.
    
    Fourth, I had WEEEEEEEEEI and Eddy Anvilhead on for the announcement
    and a few moments after it ended.  Eddy kept referring to a cover-up,
    it's worse tha we've been told etc, etc.  Like HE's got some info we
    don't?????  C'mon Anvilhead, give it a rest.
    
    Fifth, Any speculation as to the HOF rules being changed "just this
    once"???
    
    
    Kev
    

 Still can't quite believe this ...
 
 He made a very vague reference to the importance of "safe sex" during the
 press conference.  This was soon after he said that his wife had tested
 negative.   Not many conclusions you can (or perhaps even should) draw
 from that statement except that, I guess, he contracted the virus from
 someone he was seeing before he and his wife settled on each other.
 
 Also, I'm not at all finding fault with him (good heavens, no ...) but
 this recent bout with the "flu" might very well have been a short little
 delaying move so he could gather himself together and come to grips with
 the terrible disappointment.
 
 Mark this date on your calendar, folks.   It's a very important date. 
 
 Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I can't think of anyone more highly
 recognized in the public eye, regardless of sexual preference, who has
 contracted this virus.    Up until now, it seems as though the famous
 victims like Rock Hudson, Michael Bennett, Robert Mapplethorpe, Perry
 Ellis, and so on have all been gay.    What I'm trying to say is maybe
 now, after all this suffering, people can finally put aside their
 homophobia and concentrate on the virus and the disease itself.
 
 It's not the "Gay Plague".   Never has been.
 
 Bob Hunt

    
       I didn't believe it when I saw JaKe's original reply,
    and I guess it's still somewhat of a shock.
    
       It showed tremendous courage on his part to hold a press
    conference so that HE could tell the truth, rather than 
    letting the tabloids tell their version.  I haven't seen it
    yet, but I know that he was very composed and carried himself
    with class, as he usually does.  No doubt that they'll pounce 
    on this like white on rice. :-(  I also get the uneasy feeling 
    that politicians will use this as a "wedge" issue, when it shouldn't 
    be.
    
       Magic, you gave a whole lot to the game that Dr. Naismith
    invented back in 1891.  You along with Larry Bird and later 
    Michael Jordan, turned the NBA from a laughing stock to 
    arguably the most popular of the 4 major sports.  One 
    can't help but to admire and marvel at your many achievements
    over the years.  You left something for everyone to remember,
    be they a Laker fan or not.  Game 6 vs. Philly in 1980.  The 
    classic battles between LA and Boston during the mid-80s, and
    the rivalry between you and Larry.  The many, many spectacular 
    passes to Worthy, Scott, and Kareem to complete the break.
    The countless buzzer-beating shots to win the game.  Your last 
    Finals series vs. Michael.  And last, but not least, your smile 
    and ever infectious enthusiasm for the game and for life itself.  
    Words simply cannot begin to describe how much basketball, and 
    probably all of sports, will miss you. 
    
       As Bob H. said, maybe some good will emerge from this.
    Maybe teens and others who feel that they are immune from AIDS
    will take time to become better informed.  Maybe folks will 
    realize that it's not just a "gay" problem.  Realize that it 
    is a horrible disease that can afflict anyone:  young, old, 
    rich, poor, black, white.  And give it our all to find a cure, 
    just like Magic gave it his all when it came to winning.
    
       Thank you for everything Magic.  
    
    
    						 glen j.  

       Sad.....To hear a person of such great physical and mental strength
    is basically withering away do to a virus. Not only that but a genuinely
    nice person. Who can figure life! I know he just has the HIV virus but
    you might as well say he has AIDS as eventually 6 months to 10 years
    from now it will be in and with him. The only chance he has is if
    something is found to either stop it's progression completely or kill the
    virus. As have been said in few previous notes this may accelerate the
    already ongoing look for some kind of cure. It could provide a benefit
    to many out there who have already contracted the virus. It's just too
    bad Magic had to end up being the Star guinea(sp) pig.

         One thing that concerns me though is the hush hush that has been
    put on this thing. He has disclosed he has the HIV virus but has not
    said how he contracted it. He refers to wanting to talk to kids about
    safe sex so along that line I have to deduce that it was a sexual
    experience he had that caused him to get the virus. Was it a M/F sexual
    act? Could it have been from any blood transfusion he had in the past
    (I do not know if he had one in the last 10 year period.)? If it was a
    M/F sexual act why does he not disclose that point? He could just say it
    was someone before he had a relationship with. I am not being mean
    here but....could he have had an affair with someone in recent years
    just before or during his marriage? Is that why he is not disclosing
    the source? One other possibility, and lets keep open minded on this!,
    could he have been in a bisexual relationship? I personally do not feel
    he was part or at all gay but we do not know the personal side of Magic
    Johnson. Is this why he isn't pointing to the direction of where he
    contracted the virus? He has a right to his private life but since he
    has disclosed this there are going to be allot of questions as to HOW!
    I feel he is going to have to come out and explain how or where he did
    or think he did get the virus. At this point, (not for me),it may make
    allot of people nervous as to how this Pro, healthy, athlete could
    have contracted this. Just awhile ago it was thought needles, sexual
    activity and blood transfusions were the ways you could contract the
    virus. But now it has come to light that there exists the possibility
    by just going to the Dentist or the Doctor and having him or her cut
    themselves and somehow you ingesting it or mixing their blood with 
    your bodily fluids that you can contract the virus! Hopefully he will
    clear up the how so the rumors will not start or more than likely stop
    them as I am sure they have already begun.

         Hopefully something will happen that will help to save his and
    other lives. Only time will tell.         

                                                   Night Flier   ~~v~~

Even as a Celtic fan I was devastated. I had to fight back tears. The press
conference was Magic at his absolute best why even an enemy has to have
nothing but respect for the man. He could have taken his money and hid out
and got the best care possible but nope like the true champ that he is he's
taking the thing head on. Like everyone saying atleast now maybe brandead
Bush and other will realize it's more than a gay or junkies diease.

Of course Bush will have to wait and see the polls.

What's left to say except good luck Magic you are truly a real American Hero!!!

mike

Most of you know that the Chainsaw is NEVER at a loss for words.

I am now.


All I can say is "Good luck Magic, we're all pulling for you..."


'Saw

    I am shocked by the announcement. I am very impressed with his courage
    and composure during the announcement but he really had no choice but
    to announce it. if he had just retired without putting forth the
    reasons, there would have been tabloid type rumors that may have been
    much worse. As it is, he has not been very forthcoming regarding how he
    contracted the virus. I thought I heard him say his doctor woul handle
    that issue, but I never heard and explanation. I think (for his sake)
    he should get that information public or he will end up seeing all
    kinds of speculation in the press (which may be worse than the truth).
    
    I feel bad for Magic. As far as him being a role model and a spokeman
    for the HIV virus, I hope that he can serve as an example of what _not_
    to do if you want to avoid the virus. If he wants to serve as a
    spokesman, he needs to come out quickly with how he got it and the
    mistake he made, if any.
    
    In related news this AM, Magic's wife announced that she is 7 weeks
    pregnant. Makes the entire situation even sadder.
    
    Dennis
    

I can't believe it. It's sad and scary. To think of people in the 
past that you may have had sex with and you really didn't know all
that well...it's scary. I laud Magic's courage to face this adversity
with a smile on his face, when you just know that he is crying inside.
I wish him all the best and I pray that medical science can find a cure 
for this dreaded infection. 



Steve

    
    
>    much worse. As it is, he has not been very forthcoming regarding how he
>    contracted the virus. I thought I heard him say his doctor woul handle
>    that issue, but I never heard and explanation. I think (for his sake)
>    he should get that information public or he will end up seeing all
>    kinds of speculation in the press (which may be worse than the truth).
 
      I agree! I feel he needs to disclose this as soon as possible for his
    sake.   

>    In related news this AM, Magic's wife announced that she is 7 weeks
>    pregnant. Makes the entire situation even sadder.
    
>    Dennis

        This makes it Ten Times more terrible. Why does crap happen to nice
    people!!! Who knows where it leads from here. First him, a little while
    later his Wife and then eventually his unborn child! This is sickening!!
    
                                                   Night Flier   ~~v~~

    I am in total shock about Magic's situation. Although I have always
    disliked the Lakers Magic has always been a class act; what he brought
    to the game will never be matched.
    
    Normally I hate the Laker organization for always "Hollywoodizing" (tm)
    things, but this press conference was quite the opposite.  It was Magic
    talking to the world at a personal level and it really got me all
    choked up.  I wish him all the best.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

	When the doctors were being interviewed after Magic was finished,
	they indicated this information was as a result of a medical test
	he had taken the day before.  They also indicated that he did not
	now know at the present how he had contracted the virus.

	It may actually take some time before he knows exactly how he
	contracted the disease.

    
    Wow.  The only thing in the sports' world that has ever compared
    with this news was Lou Gehrig.  But even then, the disease was rare,
    unknown at the time, and had nowhere near the impact of the AIDS
    epidemic.
    
    I must admit that when I first heard the news about this yesterday
    afternoon I was shocked, but didn't really know what to think. 
    Only after I saw the composed, still-smiling Magic at the press
    conference did the tears well up.  He is an amazing man.  Just about
    anyone could have contracted the disease and become a so-called
    "spokesperson", but not too many could handle it with the grace
    that Magic showed.
    
    It may sound tasteless, but the comments about Magic coming forth
    on how he contracted the disease, in his own time, do have merit.  Bob 
    Costas spoke about this last night and about the potential importance
    of this issue if Magic does decide to become a spokeman or an educator
    on the disease.  To conceal the basic nature of contraction might
    only fuel more disinformation and ignorance around the sread of
    AIDS.  (On the other hand, if Magic doesn't feel comfortable with that 
    role and would rather battle the disease in privacy, who could blame 
    him?  That's his choice, no one else's, obviously.)
                 
    glenn
    

    I went home and watched the conference on ESPN, and then the interviews
    with Stern, etc. afterwards.  My wife wanted to know what was wrong
    when she got home.  She was shocked to hear it - but expressed hope
    that this is what finally might open the public's eyes to this virus.
    
    Personally, I was shocked then, and still am.  I find it hard to think
    about seeing the Lakers play without him.  
    
    I also admired Stern's answere about what the NBA does now - he pushed
    that aside and focused on Magic and what Magic faces.  Nice to hear...
    
    I agree with Mike Childs - that was Magic at his best yesterday - no
    matter who you root for - the man has class...
    
    JD

    Everyone's pretty much said it all.  The guy was actually upbeat at his
    press conference.  He even dropped a small joke about not having to
    put up with the media any more.  How would you be reacting if you just
    found out you had tested positive for HIV?  I certainly wouldn't be in
    the good spirits he managed to be in.  Good luck Magic.
    
    
    Joe

	It was shocking and sad news. It is to Magic's credit,
though, that he stood up and decided to meet the issue head on.

	Few have had the courage to do so. Magic has realized the
impact he can have on this issue, and has taken it onlike he has
everything else in his life - straight ahead and smiling.

	If this is what it takes to get politicians off their butts
and doing something, then so be it. That is the way of politics these days,
and ANYTHING that helps bringing focus and attention to the disease
is a plus.

	As for how he contracted the disease, if indeed he just found
out yesterday as a result of an insurance policy physical, then he 
probably does not know. If he does know, perhaps the other party does
not wish their name to be made public. 

	One other thing to remember, his wife and child testing negative
for the virus is a good sign, but "false negative" results of tests
are not unusual. I'm sure they will be monitored closely, and I wish
them and Magic the best.

	It appears that the NBA has an opportunity to give something
to the USA and the World as far as being an example and being up front
about the whole Aids situation. While I lament that a great sports
figure and hero to many has been struck an almost certain blow, I think
his handling of the situation gives hope to the many who have and still
are suffering in silence or living in fear.

	Jim M 

 Still can't believe it.   Don't want to believe it, I guess.
 
 I watched all the ESPN and CNN coverage lasted night and I was once again
 amazed at his highlight films.   All those wonderful blind passes and
 incredible shots and the smiles, smiles, smiles ... He was easily, without
 a shadow of a doubt, the hardest opponent to dislike in all the sports I
 follow ... despite the massive amounts of "torture" he ritually inflicted. 
 You just could not dislike someone who beat with you such childlike joy
 and incredible grace and style.
 
 I'll never forget how he single-handedly lit up Charlotte lasted winter
 when the NBA All-Star Weekend came to town.   He was the top attraction,
 bar none.   TNT was brilliant when they gave him a mike and asked him to
 do a running courtside commentary on the slam dunk contest.  He was more
 fun than the dunkers.
 
 I don't know if the NBA will ever be the same again.  It's a huge loss.  
 Yes, he had to retire sometime but this is tragic.  As Glenn said, it's
 got a Lou Gehrig feel to it.
 
 So very very sad for basketball.   But perhaps so very very good for
 mankind.  If anyone can lead our collective search for a way to stop this
 virus, it's this 6-9 man-child with the mile wide grin and the mile wide
 heart.   I ache all over but I have hope.   He's one of the great ones.
 
 Bob Hunt

    I don't see why people have to trash the government in all of this. 
    There is a private sector.  There are large pharmacuetical companies
    out there.  People don't seem to want to take risks anymore.  They seem
    to be looking for someone else to provide a safety net for them.  The
    first company that can come up with a vaccine stands to make a lot of
    money.  Apparently they want to make even more by having the government
    pay for their research programs.

    WOW! Nothing I can say that hasn't already been said. Perhaps the only
    positive thing is that this might actually enlighen people that AIDS is
    a very real concern that affects more people than commonly acknowledged.
    Only if those bozos who actually can do something about it will realize
    this....
    
    re .42  
    Rick, I admire your efforts to make sure your 12 year old son
    understands this and gets truthful, accurate information. As hard as 
    it may be to talk about these things sometimes, that's the only way 
    to stop the spread of mis-information. This must be devestating for 
    kids, who, it seems grow up way too fast these days anyways.
    
    Tom        

    How sad. As I was watching the press conference I reflected back on the
    memories he gave basketball fans all over. What is there to say that
    hasn't been said. He is my favorite player on my favorite team. I can't
    imagine the Lakers without him. Hopefully as an HIV spokesperson he can
    inspire researchers the same way he inspired teammates and fans alike.
    I'm way bummed. 
    
    
    As an aside I just heard on the radio that the Orange County Register
    reported that Magic's doctor said the virus was contracted from
    heterosexual sex. 
    
    Thank you Magic for the memories.

    
    I'm still in shock, but a few random thoughts:
    
    - This rumor has been floating around since Monday, my guess is he
    didn't get the results of a re-test until Weds.  He was too poised to
    have just learned the day before.
    
    - His doctor has said he got the disease through hetrosexual contact,
    not that it really matters.  
    
    - In the grander scheme of things, this will turn out to be a good
    thing.  AIDS needed a willing spokesperson.  Too bad others before him
    decided to hide, and not help others by speaking out.  
    
    - I heard a piece of a Jerry West interview that was dumb.  He seemed
    more concerned with personnel issues.  Hopefully it was bad editing.
    
    
    Bruce

    I was shocked when I heard the news about Magic.  It's hard to put into
    words what I felt, and what I'm feeling.  Over the years, Magic has had
    such a tremendous impact on all sports fans lives.  
    
    Magic Johnson brought an enthusiasm, excitement, and innocence to the
    game that was never before rivaled.  The NBA has seen alot of great
    players (Jordan, Erving, Bird ...) but none of these
    players brought a genuine smile to my face the way Magic could.
    
    My first recollection of Magic was in 1978 when UK played Michigan
    State in the Mid-East Regional Finals.  MSU was up seven points at
    half-time and I was sweating bullets.  I remember thinking, "how can a
    freshman be doing the things this kid is doing?".  MSU was perhaps the
    toughest team UK faced that year.  I guess my fondest memory of Magic
    in the NBA was when he played center (Kareem was out with Migrain's)
    against Philly in the 6th game of the finals.  42 points - nuff said.
    
    Good luck Magic.  The game will *never* be the same.  Thanks for the
    memories.  I hope that those who are your friends now remain by your
    side when things get tough.  There is alot of ignorance, bigotry, and
    hatred associated with Aids.  Hopefully, you'll be able to break down
    some of the barriers.
    
     - Wildcat
    
    

	They're tall and they're distant, almost God-like the
	way we make them sometimes.  They can do things that
	very few people can do.  They are truly at the top
	of their craft.

	As far above us as they are, even within they have
	a heirarchy, and as we look up and barely see them,
	so much the least of them look up and see the truly
	Great.

	At the top of that Olympus, stands a man.  A man
	who's love for life, and love for the game he chose
	to pursue as a career is as large as the land he
	can see from that summit.

	Last night we found out just how mortal that man
	is.  Last night, we found out just how mortal
	we ALL are.

	"Say it ain't so, Magic, say it ain't so..."


'Saw

               
>    - I heard a piece of a Jerry West interview that was dumb.  He seemed
>    more concerned with personnel issues.  Hopefully it was bad editing.
 
    It was.  That clip came from the press conference, when someone
    asked West about personnel and he more or less just babbled for
    a while, as if in shock, before saying he hadn't even thought about
    it.  I don't know why the part about West talking about personnel out
    of context kept getting repeated rather than the part where West 
    indicated it was the furthest thing from his mind.
    
    The dumbest question in the press conference was "What are the chances
    for a complete recovery?"  I couldn't believe that one.  I've got to
    believe that the reporter really isn't that stupid and was just
    trying to get the doctor say what everyone currently knows about
    AIDS, just to get a direct quote...
    
    glenn
    

    It must be incredibly strange to read what is essentially the news
    coverage of your obituary while still living.
    
    I'm a firm believer that mental attitude plays a big part in how
    quickly a disease progresses.  With his optimism, fighting spirit, and
    upbeat attitude I expect that Magic will be around to talk with all of
    us about this for a long time to come.
    
    I don't like the Lakers, but the rivalry was wonderful.  How I wish he
    could have made the rounds of a final season, a la Kareem.
    
    A&W

    
    	Like everybody else, I'm shocked and saddened.
    
    	I also echo the feelings some have about "maybe now, folks
    	will look at this disease for what it is."  
    
    	I'm with Mac on the "government blasting" in here.  I don't
    	think it's fair.  A B2 isn't magically trasnformed into an
    	HIV/AIDS vaccine.  Also, George Bush isn't the reason there
    	isn't a cure yet........
    
    	Claybroon

    
>       I'm with Mac on the "government blasting" in here.  I don't
>    	think it's fair.  A B2 isn't magically trasnformed into an
>    	HIV/AIDS vaccine.  Also, George Bush isn't the reason there
>    	isn't a cure yet........
        
    No, but if there was ever an area where government should be involved
    and as a nation we should devote common resources, in my opinion, it's 
    in matters of public health.  After all, ultimately that is the same
    reason why we have B2s and other defense appropriations.  The same 
    thing holds with AIDS as a B2 bomber.  It's an enormously complex
    problem, and there's no single entity that's going to be able to
    deliver on the contract alone, on purely private means.  We didn't 
    seem to have these role of government debates in dealing with polio, 
    etc., either.
    
    glenn
    

I feel a complete loss around the NBA season. It really puts the whole idea of
how important sports are to the USA in perspective. 

I will not forget this issue. 

Jeff

    
    I believe the US government funds >$100 million for Aids.  Compared to
    the amount the US funds for other diseases in proportin to the number
    of people stricken, it's one of the better funded diseases.  The
    problem with it, is that it's a relatively disease, and the research
    work takes time.  It's too easy to say that "the government needs to
    fund more research."  I'm not sure anymore research money would speed
    anything up, as virtually every major medical research center is
    working on some aspect of Aids research as well as a slew of biotech
    companies who see a good profit opportunity.  I know a few people who
    work for both biotech companies and large pharmaceutical companies, and
    the amount of effort these companies are investing in Aids research is
    formidable (as will be their profits if they develop a cure).
    
    Bruce 
                                               

	I agree with Bruce regarding funding for AIDS research.
	There are several diseases equally deadly (over the long haul)
	that affect many more people than AIDS does or has, that are not
	as well funded.  Perhaps, with the massive government debt and
	potentially worse economic times ahead, that there will be little
	change in the funding level for AIDS research.

	How I feel Magic can help is by what he has already proposed to
	do, to help educate those segments of our young population as to
	the potentially deadly consequences of their decisions.  Of all
	the diseases for which our government spends millions of dollars
	to help to find a cure, AIDS seems to be the most easily preventable.
	What a shame that it is such an epidemic in our country, and
	throughout the world.  Hopefully Magic's tragedy will help the
	people of America become a little more cautious and sensible in
	the way they live their lives, and thereby turn tens or hundreds of
	thousands of people from mistakes that would end in this same
	tragic result.

    I'm still in shock too.  I've never been a Laker fan, but such things
    take a backseat when reality hits.  
    
    Re: HIV test
    
    I've often heard that false results are common (i.e., false positives,
    false negatives).  Hopefully this is a false positive.
    
    I in no way mean this in a bad light, but it is even more disappointing
    to think this could've been avoided.  Hopefully teens will take a
    lesson from this and learn to be responsible in their activities.
    
    Mike

    
    Tonight we can all get a glimpse of what Magic is going to say since
    he will be appearing on Arsineo Hall's Show.  I'm pretty sure that
    in the GMA it's on Ch56 and starts at 10:30 or 11:00PM.
    
    HTH,
    Kev
    

     
    I was asking a woman that works with Paul Ross, DEC's AIDS consultant,
    what the story is with Magic and what can he expect.  Now, I consider
    myself fairly knowledgable about AIDS and related issues, and what she
    told me was not what I knew.
    
    Seems that 50% of those diagnosed as being HIV+ will contract AIDS, and
    as we all know, sadly, most of those folks will die.  BUT, you can be
    HIV+ and never contract the disease AIDS.  It can take as long as 10
    years for the AIDS virus to 'appear' once you've been diagnosed as
    HIV+, and it could lie dormant, if you will, for much longer - we just
    don't have the data yet as AIDS has only come to the forefront of
    medicine in the past 10 years.  
    
    My question is (and Paul is in D.C. until Monday, so I don't have an
    answer yet):  Can a person have the HIV virus, the strain associated
    with AIDS, and have *it* lay dormant, undetectable, for a period of 
    time?  Or once you get it, that it - you have it and it will show up?
    
    
    
    Cath

    
    I too was shocked and saddened by the story.  The fight has only begun
    for Magic and I wish him well.  I do want to say that we shouldn't
    forget the nameless, faceless others who have this disease as well.
    Courage is the 6 year old child who is infected during a blood
    transfusion, or the child that is born with the disease.  The people 
    who have no choice or knowledge of the disease, but are forced to live
    it.  Those people are the heroes.  
    
    Lets just hope that Magic can use his popularity to make a difference -
    in awareness, funds going to AIDs research and finding a cure.
    

    I was thinking at last October when he played in Paris at the Open
    15000 people were loving his style of play and his blasting assists,
    and after the 2 games he was the last to get the lockeroom, talking with
    french first and then the players of Badalona, he knew that for them
    he was such an hero. He has been and will remain my best player of this
    sport, but his class made him one of the most important man of the
    story of all sports.
    
    We european, started loving the NBA basketball with the rival between
    Magic and Larry, this morning i shocked reading the new on the paper.
    
    Good luck to you Magic, i'm sure Divac will never score with one of
    your assist anymore but you'll continuing to serve assist to the
    people who still don't know how an error can be so devasting for
    your life.
    
    Ciao,
    				Coach_La.
    Ciao,
    				Coach_La.

    Well, I for one think the gov't should be trashed - but not just for
    AIDS, but for all public health issues.  Sorry folks - but we never
    needed a B-2 bomber.  Would have been basically useless in a protracted
    nuke exchange (despite Ronny's idea of a 'winnable nuke war'), and we
    don't need it to defeat Granada, Panama, Iraq, or any of the other
    'formidle' foes we come up against.  Not saying 'Cut ALL defense
    spending' - but a limit has to be drawn.  And while research money may
    be pretty good NOW, when AIDS was first reaching the news, our
    government, led by good ol' Raygun, dismissed it as the 'gay' disease,
    and the funding was pretty low.
    
    Iutely ludicrous for the 'greatest nation on earth' to underfund public
    services such as health or education in favor of high tech weapon
    systems that aren't needed - except to line the pockets of the chairmen
    of large defense firms.
    
    With all the changes in the world, I wonder who the next 'opponent'
    will be that will justify the massive outlays for defense....
    
    JD

    
    Once again we're hearing the parochial, morality-driven party line 
    on AIDS, the same line we've heard from our political leaders.  The 
    funding for AIDS research should not be tied to the number of persons 
    currently afflicted in the United States, but rather out of a 
    compassion for the huge numbers of persons who are and *will be* 
    affected world-wide, especially and most alarmingly the children.  
    Certain areas of Africa and Asia suffer from double-digit affliction 
    rates and the spread has *not* been brought under control.
    
    There's certainly no reason why efforts can't be increased in both
    the research *and* education departments (for other diseases as
    well as AIDS, for that matter-- and we all know that the opportunity
    to do so exists under the current international climate between world
    superpowers).  But keep in mind: you're not going to change the 
    world and its numerous cultures and lifestyles by moral persuasion.
    The question then becomes one of practice, not principle-- and indeed,
    there are already tens of millions, including innocents, afflicted 
    worldwide for whom principle does no good whatsoever.  
                       
    And I'm not saying that it's a simple problem that government could
    easily clean up...
    
    glenn
    
    

    To clarify - Like Glenn - I know this isn't something that the gov't
    can simply throw cash at and viola, a cure will be found.
    
    nd it is a world-wide problem.  It it is a health issue, not a morality
    issue.
    
    JD

    
     When I read and hear all of the really wonderful things that have 
    been said about Magic, I have to feel that in a way he's been blessed
    to have been able to have touched so many people. For that reason I 
    feel, and this is just my feelings, that this note is not the place to
    blast the government. I'm not saying whether the government does or 
    doesn't deserve it, just that IMO this note isn't the place to do it.
    
    JMHO
    
    -Tommy

    
    	Which was my point.  Maybe I didn't get my meaning across
    	accurately........
    
    	Claybroon

    
    	my reply in .74 was to JD and Glenn. 

    Tommy -
    
    I agree, and sorry for putting my note in.  This note should be for
    Magic - but emotion does get in the way.  
    
    Mea Culpa
    
    JD

	The truly sad thing for Magic will be when he starts getting 
pressured from all the sides that have a political slant on this disease.  
Regardless of what he says or does there will be a segment of the 
population that will come down on him hard because he didn't do what they 
condider to be the right thing.  This is the only disease that I know of 
that carries so much political baggage with it.  

	The other thing that concerns me is where you people are laying 
the blame for the lack of a cure for AIDS.  The Congress, the President, 
the different pharmaceutical companies?  Try the FDA.  One of my best 
friends works for Mason's in Worcester doing cancer research and he told me 
a couple of years ago that if they found a cure for cancer today the drug 
wouldn't get to market for at least three years because of all the redundant 
tests that the FDA makes them submit to.  

	Caution in bringing a drug to market is wise, but the FDA is 
overcautious to a fault.  The FDA is not controlled by Congress or the 
President, but by the beaurocrats who run it.  Get them to loosen the reigns 
and you'll start seeing lots of breakthroughs in cures for lots of diseases.  
That's why most of the AIDS and cancer breakthroughs are made in Europe and 
not America.  They don't have better research doctors over there just fewer 
miles of red tape.

				/Don

    /Don -
    
    I hear ya on that, pharm. companies have to keep 10 years worth of
    documentation on all drugs they work on.  The costs in maintaining that
    are amazing...
    
    JD

    In response to the FDA, how cautious should one be with a human life? 
    People were all over the FDA over their approval of things like
    saccharin because they didn't predict all of the risks.  There are
    still some unresolved lawsuits over drugs adminsitered to women that
    later caused birth defects in their children.  Some of those amazing
    cures you hear about that are happening overseas turn out to be a red
    herring.  Remember one of those magic bullets for cancer that people
    were going to Mexico for?

(DAVE McNARY)
Subject: Magic Johnson retires
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 91 20:29:45 EST
 
	INGLEWOOD, Calif. (UPI) -- Earvin ``Magic'' Johnson, one of
basketball's most spectacular stars, announced Thursday he has the virus
which causes AIDS and will retire immediately from the Los Angeles
Lakers.
	``Life will go on with me and I'll be a happy man,'' Johnson said at
a packed news conference at the Forum, home of the Lakers. He said he
learned only Wednesday of his disease.
	``I just want to make clear that I do not have the AIDS disease but
the HIV virus,'' said Johnson, 32. ``My wife is fine, she's negative so
there's no problem with her.
	``This is not like my life is over, because it's not, I'll live on.
I'll work out, I'll be like one of the old-timers in a sense. My
strength is fine. I have to take medication and go on from there.
	``This is another challenge, another chapter in my life. It's like
your life is back against the wall. You have to come out swinging, and
I'm swinging. You have to have a bright side. I can't be down, I never
have been.''
	Johnson smiled occasionally during his brief announcement and
answered several questions. His wife of several months, Cookie, was by
his side, as were former teammates Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Michael
Cooper and NBA Commissioner David Stern.
	Michael Mellman, the team physician, said Johnson does not have AIDS
and ``is not ill. There is no immediate effect on his lfe other than we
have asked him to avoid those activities which can hurt his immune
system, like playing pro basketball.''
	Mellman added, ``Some people (with HIV virus) last a decade or longer
before they get ill, some people get ill very quickly. I'm not able to
give you a prognosis other than to say he's healthy now, we expect him
to stay healthy and have him around a long time.''
	Johnson said he will be a spokesman on the HIV virus and urge the
importance of safe sex and of AIDS tests.
	``I want young people to realize they can practice safe sex,''
Johnson said. ``Sometimes you're naive about it and think it can never
happen to you. You think 'only gay people get it, it won't happen to me.
' Now I say it can happen to anyone, it happened to Magic Johnson.
Everyone should be more careful, that's what I'm going to preach.
	``It has happend to me but I'll deal with it and my life will go on.
I will be here enjoying the Lakers games and other NBA games.''
	Mellman applauded Johnson for his revelation.
	``What we witnessed today is a courageous act by a very special man,''
Mellman said. ``He was not compelled by any legal act to disclose what
he disclosed today. He is not a person who is invisible. Because of his
presence, because of his potential impact on society, I think he should
not only be commended but be held as a modern-day hero.''
	Stern also lauded Johnson's courage.
	``When Magic understood he was HIV positive, this was something he
very much wanted to do because of all the work he has done with kids,
all the work he has done with the community,'' Stern said.
	Johnson, who retires as the all-time NBA assists leader, missed the
Lakers' first three games because of what the club said was a lingering
flu.
	Johnson is the most prominent athlete to be afflicted with the AIDS
virus. Jerry Smith, a former tight end in the NFL, died from the disease
after he had left football. Alan Wiggins, a former major-league baseball
second baseman, also died of AIDS.
	After learning of his disease, Johnson said he phoned former
teammates and friends ``because I just wanted to let them know.''
	Among them was Pat Riley, his longtime coach with the Lakers and
currently with the New York Knicks.
	``All he wants is a chance to fight this insidious disease,'' Riley
said in New York prior to the Knicks' game against Orlando. ``He wants
our support and our prayers. All he needs is our support and our love.
When I talked to him, he had the old Earvin zest.
	``If anyone can win this kind of fight, it's the tough guy that is
Earvin.''
	Johnson, a 6-foot-9 guard who helped revolutionize the playmaker's
role, was arguably one of the game's best players, and one of the most
popular and captivating.
	During his 12 years in the league, the Lakers reached the NBA finals
nine times and won five NBA championships. He was voted the NBA Most
Valuable Player three times.
	On Sept. 21 he was among 10 NBA players named to represent the United
States in basketball at next summer's Barcelona Olympics. He will not be
able to play.
	``I will miss the battles and the wars and I'll miss you guys, but
life goes on,'' Johnson said to the media. ``I always wanted to live a
normal life after it was over, now my life will change, no question
about it.''
	Johnson said he still has an interest in owning an NBA franchise, but
will miss being a member of the team.
	``I'm going to miss coming in at 5 o'clock saying hello to security
people, then ushers, and mising you guys,'' he said. ``I'll miss the
battles and war, most of all I'll miss the camaraderie with the guys.''
	Boston's Larry Bird, who broke into the NBA with Johnson in 1979 and
revived a league in perilous shape, said, ``There's no question in my
mind that Magic is the best player in the game and the best player I've
ever seen.''
	A No. 1 draft choice from Michigan State in 1979, Johnson immediately
led the Lakers to the NBA championship that season. He was the first
rookie MVP of the finals after accounting for 42 points, 15 rebounds and
7 assists playing center in place of the injured Abdul-Jabbar in the
final game of the 1980 series against Philadelphia.
	As a freshman, he led Michigan State its first Big Ten title in 19
years. The following season was even better as Michigan State went 26-6
and won the NCAA Tournament, beating Bird's Indiana State team in the
final.
	Johnson was voted NBA Man of the Year for 1986-87 by fans for his
charity and community work.
	Johnson received the nickname Magic from a sports writer in his
hometown of Lansing, Mich., after a high school game in which he
finished with 36 points, 18 rebounds and 16 assists.

(DAVE McNARY)
Subject: Magic Johnson has AIDS virus, quits Lakers
Date: 8 Nov 91 13:16:49 GMT
  
	INGLEWOOD, Calif. (UPI) -- Earvin ``Magic'' Johnson, one of
basketball's most spectacular stars, announced he has the virus that
causes AIDS and retired immediately from the Los Angeles Lakers.
	``Life will go on with me and I'll be a happy man,'' Johnson said
Thursday at a packed news conference at the Forum, home of the Lakers.
He said he learned Wednesday that he was infected.
	Lakers team physician Michael Mellman did not say during the news
conference how Johnson contracted the virus, but Friday's Orange County
Register quoted the doctor as saying: ``This is a heterosexual
individual who was infected through heterosexual activity, and that is
why his message is coming out for safe sex.''
	Johnson, 32, did not comment directly how he became infected, but he
intimated it was from heterosexual activity.
	``I want young people to realize they can practice safe sex,''
Johnson said. ``Sometimes you're naive about it and think it can never
happen to you. You think 'only gay people get it, it won't happen to me.
' Now I say it can happen to anyone, it happened to Magic Johnson.
Everyone should be more careful, that's what I'm going to preach.
	``It has happened to me but I'll deal with it and my life will go on.
I will be here enjoying the Lakers games and other NBA games.''
	The Register also reported that Johnson's wife of several months,
Cookie, is seven weeks pregnant and the fetus tested negative for the
virus.
	``I just want to make clear that I do not have the AIDS disease but
the HIV virus,'' said Johnson. ``My wife is fine, she's negative so
there's no problem with her.
	``This is not like my life is over, because it's not, I'll live on.
I'll work out, I'll be like one of the old-timers in a sense. My
strength is fine. I have to take medication and go on from there.
	``This is another challenge, another chapter in my life. It's like
your life is back against the wall. You have to come out swinging, and
I'm swinging. You have to have a bright side. I can't be down, I never
have been.''
	Johnson smiled occasionally during his brief announcement and
answered several questions. His wife was by his side, as were former
teammates Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Michael Cooper and NBA Commissioner
David Stern.
	Mellman said Johnson does not have AIDS and ``is not ill. There is no
immediate effect on his lfe other than we have asked him to avoid those
activities which can hurt his immune system, like playing pro
basketball.''
	Mellman added, ``Some people (with HIV virus) last a decade or longer
before they get ill, some people get ill very quickly. I'm not able to
give you a prognosis other than to say he's healthy now, we expect him
to stay healthy and have him around a long time.''
	Johnson said he will be a spokesman on the HIV virus and urge the
importance of safe sex and of AIDS tests.
	Mellman applauded Johnson for his revelation.
	``What we witnessed today is a courageous act by a very special man,''
Mellman said. ``He was not compelled by any legal act to disclose what
he disclosed today. He is not a person who is invisible. Because of his
presence, because of his potential impact on society, I think he should
not only be commended but be held as a modern-day hero.''
	Stern also lauded Johnson's courage.
	``When Magic understood he was HIV positive, this was something he
very much wanted to do because of all the work he has done with kids,
all the work he has done with the community,'' Stern said.
	Johnson, who retires as the all-time NBA assists leader, missed the
Lakers' first three games because of what the club said was a lingering
flu.
	Johnson is the most prominent athlete to be afflicted with the AIDS
virus. Jerry Smith, a former tight end in the NFL, died from the disease
after he had left football. Alan Wiggins, a former major-league baseball
second baseman, also died of AIDS.
 _m_o_r_e
_(_1_s_t_a_d_d_ _s_t_a_n_d_s_)
	After learning of his disease, Johnson said he phoned former
teammates and friends ``because I just wanted to let them know.''
	Among them was Pat Riley, his longtime coach with the Lakers and
currently with the New York Knicks.
	``All he wants is a chance to fight this insidious disease,'' Riley
said in New York prior to the Knicks' game against Orlando. ``He wants
our support and our prayers. All he needs is our support and our love.
When I talked to him, he had the old Earvin zest.
	``If anyone can win this kind of fight, it's the tough guy that is
Earvin.''
	Johnson, a 6-foot-9 guard who helped revolutionize the playmaker's
role, was arguably one of the game's best players, and one of the most
popular and captivating.
	During his 12 years in the league, the Lakers reached the NBA finals
nine times and won five NBA championships. He was voted the NBA Most
Valuable Player three times.
	On Sept. 21, he was among 10 NBA players named to represent the
United States in basketball at next summer's Barcelona Olympics. He will
not be able to play.
	``I will miss the battles and the wars and I'll miss you guys, but
life goes on,'' Johnson said to the media. ``I always wanted to live a
normal life after it was over, now my life will change, no question
about it.''
	Johnson said he still has an interest in owning an NBA franchise, but
will miss being a member of the team.
	``I'm going to miss coming in at 5 o'clock saying hello to security
people, then ushers, and mising you guys,'' he said. ``I'll miss the
battles and war, most of all I'll miss the camaraderie with the guys.''
	Boston's Larry Bird, who broke into the NBA with Johnson in 1979 and
revived a league in perilous shape, said, ``There's no question in my
mind that Magic is the best player in the game and the best player I've
ever seen.''
	A No. 1 draft choice from Michigan State in 1979, Johnson immediately
led the Lakers to the NBA championship that season. He was the first
rookie MVP of the finals after accounting for 42 points, 15 rebounds and
7 assists playing center in place of the injured Abdul-Jabbar in the
final game of the 1980 series against Philadelphia.
	As a freshman, he led Michigan State its first Big Ten title in 19
years. The following season was even better as Michigan State went 26-6
and won the NCAA Tournament, beating Bird's Indiana State team in the
final.
	Johnson was voted NBA Man of the Year for 1986-87 by fans for his
charity and community work.
	Johnson received the nickname Magic from a sports writer in his
hometown of Lansing, Mich., after a high school game in which he
finished with 36 points, 18 rebounds and 16 assists.

(DOUGLAS A. LEVY, UPI Science Writer)
Subject: Experts: Basketball star's infection could save others
Date: 8 Nov 91 02:06:58 GMT
 
	WASHINGTON (UPI) -- Public health experts reacted with sadness
Thursday to Los Angeles Lakers star Magic Johnson's disclosure he is
infected with the HIV virus and admired his decision to go public even
though he is not showing symptoms of the AIDS disease.
	``Everyone now knows somebody who is HIV-positive,'' said Dr. June
Osborn, who heads the National Commission on AIDS.
	``It was extraordinary to go public when he is asymptomatic,'' Osborn
said. ``But (everyone with HIV) should be able to say 'I've got this
thing, but I'm still me.'''
	The panel's vice chairman, Dr. David Rogers, said the tragedy of
Johnson's infection will have a profound impact on Americans.
	``Here is a hero of so many American youngsters. This will punch home
the fact that this is something we've all got to grapple with,'' Rogers
said.
	In Inglewood, Calif., Johnson said he is infected with HIV but has
not become sick from the disease AIDS. He said he would take the message
about AIDS to children and others throughout the nation.
	He intimated he contracted the virus via heterosexual activity.
	``Sometimes you're a little naive about it and think it can never
happen to you. It has happened, but I'm going to deal with it, and my
life will go on,'' Johnson said.
	``I'll be speaking more to people about this,'' he said.
	Such a message from a prominent sports figure could reach young
people and others who have not believed that the AIDS epidemic can hit
anyone who is not careful.
	Transmission of the disease can be prevented by practicing safe sex,
such as using condoms, and by not sharing needles for intravenous drug
abuse.
	``Particularly in the black population, where the disease is growing
among the young and early adult populations, people will take what he
says very seriously,'' said Chuck Frutchey of the San Francisco AIDS
Foundation.
	An estimated 1 million Americans are infected with the AIDS-causing
human immunodeficiency virus, or HIV, and the disease has killed nearly
200,000 since its discovery 10 years ago, according to the Centers for
Disease Control.
	Another AIDS activist, Paul Boneberg, head of San Francisco's
Mobilization against AIDS said he hoped Johnson's announcement will
prompt others to get medical care.
	``We are moving into a tidal wave of new AIDS cases,'' he said.
However, ``this is not a death sentence, and I think it's important for
the public to realize that. With many of the treatments available, he
can live for a long time.''
	The AIDS epidemic was first identified in 1981, but it was not until
October 1985, when movie star Rock Hudson died from the disease, that it
received wide attention.
	In May 1988, the Health and Human Services Department mailed a
pamphlet about ``Understanding AIDS'' to every household in the nation.

(MIKE BARNES, UPI Sports Writer)
Subject: Magic will be missed
Date: 8 Nov 91 03:05:32 GMT
 
	INGLEWOOD, Calif. (UPI) -- Magic Johnson sat at his locker before a
game at the Forum the other night and talked about how awful it was to
be out of the lineup.
	The ``flu and dehydration'' that caused him to miss the Los Angeles
Lakers' first three games was too much for him to bear. He said he
couldn't sit still and tossed off the covers while watching the double-
overtime game from Houston on opening night. He talked about missing the
camaraderie of his teammates during the road trip.
	``I don't know who was joking with who while they were away,'' he
said with a sad smile. ``That's the worst thing about being out. You
feel like an outsider, you don't know what's going on.''
	On Thursday, everyone found out -- and it was the most dreadful news
we have heard in a long time. Earvin Johnson, the epitome of winning in
basketball and in life, has come up a big loser. He has the HIV virus.
	Johnson never seems to be down, and he tried to remain upbeat during
his packed news conference at the Forum. ``I plan on going on, living
for a long time, bugging you guys like I always have,'' he told
reporters.
	``So you'll see me around. I plan on staying with the Lakers and the
league. Hopefully David (NBA Commissioner Stern) will have me around.
I'm going on with my life.''
	But how will we go on without Johnson? He was a remarkable athlete on
the court, a 6-foot-9 man-child who played point guard like no one else.
In an era of selfishness he made unselfish play fashionable; because of
Magic, guys wanted to make the pass rather than make the basket.
	Off the court, Johnson treats reporters and fans like people, which
unfortunately has become a rarity these days. He answers questions
honestly, often over and over again for each wave of tape recorders and
cameras. Each response comes with a touch of enthusiasm, making the
questioner feel he has gotten special treatment from one of the world's
greatest athletes.
	When Johnson passed Oscar Robertson last season to become the NBA's
all-time assist leader, among those he thanked at his post-game news
conference was writer Mitch Chortkoff, who had covered Johnson since his
first pro season of 1979-80.
	Imagine. An athlete thanking a sports writer. Believe us, stuff like
that doesn't happen every day.
	Johnson sounded brave Thursday. He's going to beat this thing. He
just got married last summer. He still wants to own an NBA team. Most
importantly, he's going to become a spokesman for combating the HIV
virus.
	``I want people to understand that safe sex is the way to go,'' he
said. ``I think sometimes we think only gay people can get it, that's
it's not going to happen to me. Here I am saying it can happen to
anybody.''
	Stern, who has come to the Forum for so many championship
celebrations during the Johnson era, came to Inglewood for this
occasion, too. He said the NBA will stand by Johnson and offer its help.
	``This is a very courageous, heroic person and a heroic act,'' the
commissioner said. ``We all pledge our support to him and our effort to
go out and work with kids in detailing what has to be done.''
	Already, Johnson seemed to be making an impact in his new role. Said
a student at Inglewood High School just a few blocks from the Forum: 
``He's a great sports idol. I can get (the disease) too. I'm going to be
careful from now on.''
	Though infected, Johnson does not have AIDS and he's still healthy.
Some with the disease have lived for more than a decade. Yet Thursday's
news read like an obituary. Magic Johnson can't play basketball anymore.
	``I'm not sure we'll ever see his like again,'' Stern said.
	Lou Gehrig, his time running out, considered himself the luckiest man
on the face of the earth. Those who have seen Johnson play -- and gotten
to know him just a little bit -- feel the same way.

(DAVE McNARY)
Subject: Magic Johnson has AIDS virus, retires
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 4:02:11 EST
 
	INGLEWOOD, Calif. (UPI) -- Magic Johnson, one of the greatest players
in basketball, Thursday said he has the virus that causes AIDS and
retired immediately from the Los Angeles Lakers.
	``Life will go on with me and I'll be a happy man,'' Johnson said at
a packed news conference at the Forum, home of the Lakers. He said he
learned Wednesday that he had the virus.
	Lakers team physician Michael Mellman did not say during the news
conference how Johnson contracted the virus, but Friday's Orange County
Register quoted the doctor as saying: ``This is a heterosexual
individual who was infected through heterosexual activity, and that is
why his message is coming out for safe sex.''
	Johnson, 32, did not comment directly how he became infected, but he
intimated it was from heterosexual activity.
	``I want young people to realize they can practice safe sex,''
Johnson said. ``Sometimes you're naive about it and think it can never
happen to you. You think 'only gay people get it, it won't happen to me.
' Now I say it can happen to anyone, it happened to Magic Johnson.
Everyone should be more careful, that's what I'm going to preach.
	``It has happened to me but I'll deal with it and my life will go on.
I will be here enjoying the Lakers games and other NBA games.''
	Johnson stepped to the microphone shortly after 3 p.m., greeted the
approximately 300 media members present and made a brief statement.
	``I just want to make clear that I do not have the AIDS disease but
the HIV virus,'' Johnson said. ``My wife is fine, she's negative so
there's no problem with her.
	``This is not like my life is over, because it's not, I'll live on.
I'll work out, I'll be like one of the old-timers in a sense. My
strength is fine. I have to take medication and go on from there.
	``This is another challenge, another chapter in my life. It's like
your life is back against the wall. You have to come out swinging, and
I'm swinging. You have to have a bright side. I can't be down, I never
have been.''
	The point guard three times won the NBA's Most Valuable Player award
and won five championships with the Lakers.
	Johnson smiled occasionally during his brief announcement and
answered several questions. His wife of several months, Cookie, was by
his side, as were former teammates Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Michael
Cooper and NBA Commissioner David Stern.
	The Register also reported that Johnson's wife is seven weeks
pregnant and the fetus tested negative for the virus.
	Mellman said Johnson does not have AIDS and ``is not ill in any way.
There is no immediate effect on his lfe other than we have asked him to
avoid those activities which can hurt his immune system, like playing
pro basketball.''
	Mellman added, ``Some people (with HIV virus) last a decade or longer
before they get ill, some people get ill very quickly. I'm not able to
give you a prognosis other than to say he's healthy now, we expect him
to stay healthy and have him around a long time.''
	Johnson sought during the 10 minutes he spoke to stress he is not
disabled.
	``I can do anything a normal person can do. I just have to take
medication.''
	``I'm going to beat it and I'm going to have fun,'' he said.
	Johnson had missed the first three games of the season with what had
been described by the team as flu symptoms. He had played with the
Lakers during the exhibition season.
	Johnson said he plans to keep playing basketball with friends and
become a spokesman for prevention of AIDS. He also said he plans to work
with both the Lakers and the National Basketball Associaton in some
capacity.
	Mellman had recommended against Johnson continuing to play
professional basketball because the sport demands that players perform
to the point of exhaustion, which could impair Johnson's immune system.
	``Very few of us go through what he goes through (in playing
professional basketball),'' Mellman said. ``We have Earvin in a very
healthy state,'' he said using Johnson's given first name.
	Mellman said Johnson has not yet started taking medication to combat
the virus and is exploring treatment options.
	Abdul-Jabbar said ``it underlines one more time the need for caution.
That's probably one thing Earvin learned from this -- he wasn't cautious.
''
	On what Johnson's former Michigan State coach, Jud Heathcoate, called
``a sad day for basketball,'' the news had players buzzing from high
schools through the NBA.
	Chicago Bulls star Michael Jordan, whom Johnson was to join on the U.
S. Olympic team this summer, withheld immediate reaction, saying, ``I
was shocked when I heard it. I don't know what to say; I'll have to
think about it.''
	Mellman hailed Johnson for his brave revelation.
	``What we witnessed today is a courageous act by a very special man,''
Mellman said. ``He was not compelled by any legal act to disclose what
he disclosed today. He is not a person who is invisible. Because of his
presence, because of his potential impact on society, I think he should
not only be commended but be held as a modern-day hero. This a very
special person and a very special admission.''
	Stern, the league commissioner, also lauded Johnson's courage in
speaking publicly.
	``By invoking the NBA and all his teammates and players to deliver
the message he wants to deliver, I think we can get something positive
out of a very terrible situation,'' Stern said.
	``When Magic understood he was HIV positive, this was something he
very much wanted to do because of all the work he has done with kids,
all the work he has done with the community. We all pledged our support
to him in his effort.''
	Earvin Johnson, who retires as the all-time NBA assists leader,
missed the Lakers' first three games because of what the club said was a
lingering flu. Johnson had commented about a loss of weight in
Wednesday's edition of the Los Angeles Times, saying he was afraid to
weigh himself.
	Johnson is the most prominent athlete to be stricken with HIV. Jerry
Smith, a former tight end in the NFL, died from AIDS after he had left
football. Alan Wiggins, a former major-league second baseman, also died
of AIDS.
	After learning of his test results, Johnson phoned former teammates
and friends ``because I just wanted to let them know,'' he said.
	Among those he spoke to was Pat Riley, his longtime coach with the
Lakers and currently the coach of the New York Knickerbockers.
	``All he wants is a chance to fight this insidious disease,'' Riley
said in New York prior to the Knicks' game against Orlando. ``He wants
our support and our prayers. All he needs is our support and our love.
When I talked to him, he had the old Earvin zest. The people who know
him and love him seem to be taking it tougher than he is. But he knows
it will be a tough fight. If anyone can win this kind of fight, it's the
tough guy that is Earvin.''
	Johnson, a 6-foot-9 guard who helped revolutionize the playmaker's
role, was not only one of the game's best players, but one of the most
popular and captivating. Whether it was scoring, rebounding,
ballhandling or leadership, Johnson excelled as perhaps no other player
had.
	During his 12 years in the league, the Lakers reached the NBA finals
nine times and won five NBA championships. He was voted the NBA Most
Valuable Player three times in a four-year span ending in 1990, becoming
the sixth player in league history to capture the award in consecutive
years, and the first guard.
	On Sept. 21, he was among 10 NBA players named to represent the
United States in basketball at next summer's Barcelona Olympics. He will
not be able to play.
	``I will miss the battles and the wars and I'll miss you guys, but
life goes on,'' Johnson said to the media. ``I always wanted to live a
normal life after it was over, now my life will change, no question
about it.''
	Johnson said he still has an interest in owning an NBA franchise, but
will miss being a member of the team.
	``I'm going to miss coming in at 5 o'clock saying hello to security
people, then ushers, and mising you guys,'' he said. ``I'll miss the
battles and war, most of all I'll miss the camaraderie with the guys.''
	Johnson leaves the NBA as the career assists leader with 9,921. He
broke Oscar Robertson's mark last year.
	Johnson became only the third player to win NCAA and NBA titles back-
to-back, joining Bill Russell and Henry Bibby. He was named MVP of the
Finals in 1980, 1982 and 1987.
	A No. 1 overall choice in 1979, Johnson immediately helped the Lakers
to the NBA championship that season. In doing so, Johnson became the
first rookie named MVP of the finals after accounting for 42 points, 15
rebounds and 7 assists while starting at center in place of the injured
Abdul-Jabbar in the sixth and final game of the 1980 finals against
Philadelphia.
	Johnson was named the MVP of the All-Star Game in 1989-90, the ninth
time he had appeared in the game.
	``At some point over the years he has shown his total skill, whether
it be offense, passing, defense or rebounding,'' Riley once said of
Johnson. ``He has always pigeon-holed himself as a top point guard, the
delivery man, the run-the-show type, and left the scoring to other
people.''
	Just as he was to do in the pros, Johnson made an immediate impact in
college. As a freshman, he led Michigan State to a 25-5 record and the
Spartans captured their first Big Ten title in 19 years. The following
season was even better as Michigan State went 26-6 and won the NCAA
Tournament, beating Bird's Indiana State team in the final.
	Johnson was voted NBA Man of the Year for 1986-87 by the fans for his
charity and community work.
	Johnson's given first name is Earvin. He received the nickname Magic
from a sports writer in his hometown of Lansing, Mich., after a high
school game in which he finished with 36 points, 18 rebounds and 16
assists. It was a nickname that captured everything about his game.

    re. .67
    
    Yes, there is a period of time between exposure to the virus and when
    the test will give a positive result.  It's not really dormant, it's
    that your body has not manufactured anitbodies to it yet.
    
    re. .70
    
    You're right on target that in the beginning there was very little
    funding for AIDS research and what monies was allocated was hard fought
    for.  An excellent book by Randy Shilts called "And The Band Played On"
    will explain the reasons why this happened.  It is especially tragic if
    you compare the mobilization of this country's resources in combating
    Legionnaire's Disease to how we have handled the AIDS epidemic.  Also,
    one small nit, we will never have a vaccine for AIDS because it is a
    virus and viruses mutate.  That's why we can't find a "cure" for the
    common cold.  We will only be able to develop ways to stop the
    disease's progression.
    
    

    re FDA:
    
    There is a procedure whereby the FDA can speed up the approval process. 
    That procedure has currently allowed two new anti-Aids drug come to
    market (I forget their names, not AZT).
    
    re Randy Shilts:
    
    Although Shilts has a lot of important things to say, his viewpoint is
    decidedly one-sided.
    
    re Reagan is the problem:
    
    A vast majority of the people who call themselves Aids-activists are
    left wing.  Aids became widespread during Reagan's tenure, and these
    people, who are of an anti-Reagan posture to begin with, found themselves
    a convenient scapegoat.
    
    
    Bruce

    Bruce -
    
    Nice try.  That's like saying this:  "All Reagon supporters were
    right-wing, and cheered AIDS because is was 'only' killing gays, drug
    users, and Haitians...."
    
    JD

    
    I don't see the analogy at all, JD.  
    
    Bruce

       How about this analogy: Reagan/Bush were president during the fall
    of Communism in Germany and USSR. They seem to like to take credit for
    that, though their effect may have been marginal at best.
                                     Denny

    re: .81  Magic was "arguably" one of the best NBA players!?!?!  Does
    this mean the author found someone who denied he was one of the best?
    There's no argument about it, as far as I know.
    
    This is indeed very sad news, but let's look at the positive side.
    Magic has maybe 10 years to live, maybe more.  It's not inconceivable
    that a cure will be found in the next 10 years.
    
    Even should he die before his time, he had one of the most exciting,
    full lives I could imagine.  He may not have quantity, but he's had
    incredible quality.
    
    Pete

    Bruce -
    
    Perhaps I should explain it to you.  You asserted that the Reagan
    bashing was done by Aids activists who were anti-Reagon, so they used
    him as a scapegoat.  You also alluded to 'left wingers'....
    
    One could infer that all left-wingers were AIDS activists who blamed
    Reagan for not acting quickly enough on because they were left wingers
    and didn't like Reagan.  You made a broad generalization.
    
    So, I made a broad generalization about Reagon supporters - ones who
    think/thought ol' Ronny could do no wrong.  They were right wingers who
    didn't mind AIDS cuz it was a moral issue, and it only affected certain
    groups.
    
    The idea was to show both the folly of the thinking about left-wingers
    and right-wingers.
    
    Understand?  You are the one who made the broad statement...
    
    JD

    
       Here's an address if anyone wishes to send a card or 
    letter to Magic.
    
       		c/o The Forum
    		P.O. Box 10
    		Inglewood, CA 90306
    
    
    						 glen j.

Subject: Jordan 'devastated' by Johnson news
Date: 8 Nov 91 19:18:21 GMT
 
	DEERFIELD, Ill. (UPI) -- Chicago Bulls basketball player Michael
Jordan, stunned by the news that fellow superstar Earvin ``Magic''
Johnson has the AIDS virus, vowed Friday to do anything he can to help
his infected friend.
	``Just like most people in America, I was shocked, was devastated (by
the news). Myself and other players in the league all looked up to him.
We still look up to him.
	``He seems so calm when, quite frankly, I wasn't as calm as he was,''
Jordan told a news conference.
	Jordan said he has talked to Johnson, who retired from professional
basketball Thursday because of the virus that causes acquired immune
deficiency syndrome.
	``I told him I love him. My family is with him and whatever we can
do, we'll do that.
	``It's tough to maintain and continue on when a guy of this stature
is going to deal with what he's got to deal with,'' Jordan said of the
man and friend he met head-to-head in last year's NBA playoffs.
	Jordan said he hoped a cure would be found for the disease but agreed
with Johnson that everyone, including children, should be warned about
AIDS.
	Jordan, who expressed admiration for Johnson's display of strength in
Thursday's announcement, wondered aloud if he would be as strong were he
in the same situation.
	He also said he would miss Johnson's presence in the game. He said
Johnson's performance prompted Jordan to improve as a player.
	``It's gone a little bit,'' he said.

Subject: Magic Johnson Chronology
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 13:39:57 EST
 
	Highlights of Earvin ``Magic'' Johnson's basketball career:
	1978-79 season -- As a sophomore, led Michigan State to NCAA
Championship over Larry Bird and Indiana State; selected by Los Angeles
Lakers as the No. 1 pick in the NBA draf.
	1979-80 season -- Helped Lakers win NBA title and became first rookie
in NBA history voted Most Valuable Player of playoff finals after
scoring 42 points with 15 rebounds and 7 assists while starting at
center in final game against Philadelphia; named to NBA All-Rookie team
after averaging 18.0 points.
	1980-81 season -- Limited to 37 games because of torn cartilage in
left knee; averaged 21.6 points.
	1981-82 -- Helped Lakers to NBA title, joining Wilt Chamberlain and
Oscar Robertson as only players to go over 700 points, rebounds and
assists in same season; won playoffs MVP and led league in steals with
2.67 average; set team record with 13 rebounds in a game against
Houston.
	1982-83 season -- Led NBA in assists with 10.5 and broke team record
with 829.
	1983-84 season -- Led NBA in assists with 13.1 average and set NBA
record with 24 assists in a playoff game vs. Phoenix.
	1984-85 season -- Helped Lakers to NBA title with 18.3 scoring average
and 968 assists.
	1985-86 season -- Led league in assists with 12.6 per game; handed out
5,000th career assist March 13th vs. Seattle; became first player to
receive 1 million votes in All-Star balloting.
	1986-87 season -- Helped Lakers to NBA title and became fourth man to
win Most Valuable Player award in regular season and finals; became
first three-time MVP in finals; averaged 23.9 points to lead team in
scoring for first time.
	1987-88 season -- Helped the Lakers to their second straight NBA
title.
	1988-89 season -- Named NBA Most Valuable Player; helped Lakers to
finals, where they lost to Detroit.
	1989-90 season -- Named NBA's most valuable player for the third time
after averaging 22.3 points; named to first-team all-NBA team for eighth
straight season and voted to All-Star game.
	1990-91 season -- Helped Lakers to the NBA finals for the ninth time
in his 12-year career; broke Oscar Robertson's 17-year-old career assist
record of 9,887 on April 25 vs. Dallas; moved into second on NBA career
steal list with 1,638.
	Sept. 21, 1991 -- Among NBA stars named to U.S. Olympic team.
	Nov. 7, 1991 -- Announced his retirement from NBA because he
contracted HIV.

Subject: Lakers face reality: Johnson won't be back
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 14:48:39 EST
 
	LOS ANGELES (UPI) -- When Magic Johnson indicated during the NBA
Finals last June that he was considering retirement, most involved with
the Los Angeles Lakers failed to take him seriously.
	He had talked about quitting before, but he always returned.
	Now, though, Johnson is gone for good. His retirement, announced
Thursday after his revelation he has tested positive for HIV, leaves the
Lakers with a gaping hole in their lineup they can't possibly hope to
fill.
	``You don't replace him as a player,'' a still-shaken General Manager
Jerry West said Friday from his office at the Forum. ``You don't replace
his intelligence, his incredible charisma, his ability to lead.
	``Our goals were lofty. We thought we were much improved from last
year. To tell you we're championship caliber, I don't know. I don't know
the emotional impact. You can't lose a player like Magic and not be
affected. A player like him comes along every 20 years. Unfortunately we
lose him at the worst possible time.''
	His outstanding leadership qualities aside, Johnson averaged 19.4
points, 12.5 assists, 7.0 rebounds last year. The No. 1 assist man in
history took Los Angeles to the NBA Finals nine times in his 12 seasons
and was named the league's Most Valuable Player three times.
	West said he had been aware of the possibility Johnson might be
seriously ill three weeks ago.
	``I was hoping against hope that it was something else,'' he said. 
``I was hoping another test result would come out that this was a
mistake.''
	West added he has not begun to consider signing a free agent or
making a trade. ``I simply don't know what we can do,'' he said.
	Known as one of the NBA's most astute general managers, West did make
a move Oct. 2 when he acquired Sedale Threatt from Seattle for three
second-round draft picks. Threatt was obtained to give Johnson help, but
now serves as his replacement.
	A nine-year veteran and one of the NBA's most underrated players,
Threatt averaged 19.3 points and 7.3 assists in the first three games of
this season while Johnson sat out because of ``flu and dehydration.''
	Tony Smith began the year on the injured list with a sprained ankle.
He is eligible to be activated after Sunday night's game against
Minnesota and will probably fill Johnson's roster spot.
	Terry Teagle, a disappointment last year in his first season with the
Lakers, was thought to be on the way out but now his spot on the team
might be secure. Rookie Demetrius Calip, waived and then re-signed when
Smith was injured, is another guard on the roster.
	Under salary cap rules, a team that loses a player to injury or
retirement can replace that slot with someone at 50 percent of that
player's salary. Since Johnson was to earn $3.14 million this season
(for salary-cap purposes), the Lakers can spend $1.57 million on a
replacement.
	Despite the fact this is an unusual situation, NBA spokesman Terry
Lyons said the league will not allow the Lakers to clear more than half
of Johnson's salary to sign a player.
	``It's a player retirement; under the rules it's pretty cut and
dried,'' Lyons said from New York.
	Point guards Sherman Douglas of Miami and Rod Strickland of San
Antonio are both free agents and holding out. The Heat has the right of
first refusal and would probably match any offer to Sherman. Strickland
reportedly has been seeking a 4-year contract worth $9 million.

(DAVE McNARY, UPI Business Writer)
Subject: AIDS-related stocks up after Johnson's disclosure
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 14:48:41 EST
 
	LOS ANGELES (UPI) -- Stocks of several AIDS-prevention issues jumped
Friday in the wake of basketball star Earvin ``Magic'' Johnson's
stunning disclosure that he had the HIV virus that causes AIDS.
	``The announcement clearly is going to focus attention on the need
for new treatments and on the progress that has been made over the past
three to four years,'' said James McCament, publisher of the Medical
Technology Stock Letter in Berkeley.
	``Much of the attention has been on treating people who already have
AIDS, so one of the great things about Magic Johnson coming forward so
early is that there will be more focus on a vaccine,'' McCament said.
	Johnson announced at a news conference Thursday he would retire from
professional basketball because he has the HIV virus. He also promised
to preach about the importance of safe sex and other ways of preventing
acquired immune deficiency syndrome.
	Stock of Carter-Wallace Inc., a leading maker of condoms, jumped more
than $8 after the market opened Friday, then fell back somewhat by the
middle of the session but was still up $5 to $109.75 a share. The New
York-based company produces the Trojan brand of condoms.
	Investors also were scouring the over-the-counter market for issues
of companies researching a cure for AIDS and several showed strong gains
by early Friday afternoon.
	Immune Response jumped $4.50 to $58.25 a share; Medimmune Corp.
gained $4.50 to $55; Immunex Corp. was up $2.50 to $54; and Immunogen
rose $1.25 to $20.
	Also gaining were Genentech, up 62.5 cents to $35.375; Chiron, up 75
cents to $72 and Repligen Corp., up 50 cents to $18.
	San Diego-based Immune Response is probably the furthest along in
human clinical trials for a genentically engineered AIDS vaccine,
McCament said. But, he added, the best potential may come from research
performed by Chiron Corp. of Emeryville, in conjunction with
pharmaceuticals giant Ciba-Geigy.
	McCament also said there is potential at Repligen and Medimmune. Drug
giant Merck caused a stir recently when it announced it was switching
partners from Repligen to Medimmune on work on monoclonal antibodies to
prevent AIDS.
	The analyst warned that it is impossible to predict which company can
ultimately come up with an effective vaccine and get marketing approval
from the Food and Drug Administration.
	``How long this takes depends on how good the results are, so it's
way too early too tell,'' McCament said. ``The FDA has indicated a
willingness to move faster on these kind of drugs, so we could have a
several different ones in two or three years.''
	``It's clear that there is a lot more interest from companies and the
prognosis is much better than it was five years ago,'' McCament said,
noting there several anti-viral drugs about to enter clinical trials. 
``Luckily, there are some people knowing what to do.''

    Re: government
    
    Take it to mail or the appropriate notes conference.  This has no place
    in SPORTS.

    I just got in, and have time only for a short note. 
    
    I'm rocked, and I still can't believe it is true. If I'm ever in that
    situation, I can only hope that I'm blessed to be as poised as Magic
    was and is.
    
    What really is ironic is how only 48 hours before, I heard Wilt
    bragging about his thousands of conquests in his lifetime - and a lot
    of people were eating it up.
    
    Talk about playing Russian Roulette with an Uzi .... :-(
    
    Now Magic has the HIV virus - maybe this will wake people up. Finally.
    
    But why does it happen to the good ?
    
    George
    

    It turns out that the AIDS virus is unique in nature: It's the only
    known virus that depopulates when disease sets in; every other known
    virus propagates massively to induce disease.  This is the reason for
    the CIA conspiracy theories and such.  It's also the reason that the
    massive AIDS research program has been frustrated.
    
    re: Magic
    
    There's a lot fishy about Magic's story.  Lemme get this straight (no
    pun intended), he gets tested "for insurance" one day and dramatically
    announces his retirement the next?  Gag me with a poon on that one!
    What're the chances that Magic wouldn't have consulted ten doctors tops
    in their fields and been tested by each using a different lab each time? 
    [zero]
    
    Also, the scenario leading up to this is suspicious: Out of camp, not
    playing any games, speculation about injuries, etc.  Then, as I understand
    it, Magic gets married after all these years, then, a routine insurance 
    exam that for some reason included a AIDS test.  Then multimillionaire
    Magic decides to retire without a 2nd test and declares that his infection
    proves that men can be infected with HIV through hetersexual contact,
    something that has yet to be proven in the medical literature.
    
    What to believe?  Dunno.  Maybe it so happens that Magic made medical 
    history with his heterosexual contraction.  
    
    But, if he wants to pawn himself off as the world's number one AIDS 
    spokesperson and he's a homosexual or bisexual (which I'd guess he is)
    then he should come out of the close and admit that he's into having
    sex with men.
    
    If he doesn't, he's putting a big chill on the poon market  for no good
    reason...
    
    MrT

(DOUGLAS A. LEVY, UPI Science Writer)
Subject: AIDS kills but not quickly
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 16:14:21 EST
 
	WASHINGTON (UPI) -- Even though Magic Johnson is infected with HIV,
the virus that causes AIDS, his life is far from over.
	From the time people are infected to the time they develop AIDS,
acquired immune deficiency syndrome, 10 or more years can elapse.
Another two, three or four years often is possible even after full AIDS
sets in.
	Access to medical care and continued monitoring of the immune system
plays a vital role in an HIV-positive person's prognosis.
	HIV attacks the immune system, destroying T-cells that are essential
to the body's ability to fight infections. As the T-cell count drops, a
person becomes susceptible to life-threatening ``opportunistic
infections'' such as pneumocystis carinii pneumonia, a lung infection
that used to afflict up to 40 percent of AIDS sufferers.
	However, doctors know more about preventing and treating these
infections and the FDA has approved two drugs, AZT and DDI, that can
slow the progress of AIDS itself.
	``Someobdy diagnosed with HIV in 1991 has a far better outlook than
someone diagnosed five or six years ago,'' said Dr. Constance Wofsy of
the University of California, San Francisco.
	``There are two anti-viral (drugs), there are a multitude of ways to
prevent pneumocystis, and there are standardized therapies for almost
all of the opportunistic infections,'' she said.
	``There's a lot of hope for slowing down the disease.''
	However, that hope is bright only for persons who learn they are HIV-
positive before their immune system is severely damaged and who have
access to treatment.
	Even after opportunistic infections develop, AIDS patients often live
two to four years, some even longer.
	``We've pushed the boundaries way beyond 18 months. We can talk years
now,'' said Dr. Mervyn Silverman, president of the American Foundation
for AIDS Research. Silverman was San Francisco's health director when
the epidemic began in the early 1980s.
	Dr. Judith Feinberg, who treats people with AIDS at The Johns Hopkins
Hospital in Baltimore, said some people develop HIV-related symptoms in
as little as a year after infection.
	``There are people who do less well, but if you pulled all the right
cards, all the rabbits out of the hat,'' she said, life with HIV and
AIDS goes on.
	``On average, most people go more than five, even seven, eight or 10
years before developing any symptoms,'' Feinberg said.
	As of Sept. 30, 1991, the Centers for Disease Control recorded 195,
718 cases of AIDS and 126,159 deaths from the disease.
	The CDC said 19,796 of the AIDS cases are among females. A total of
3,312 children have been diagnosed with AIDS.
	The agency recorded 10,989 cases of heterosexually transmitted AIDS.
	U.S. Public Health Service estimates about 1 million persons
currently are infected with HIV and projects that by the end of 1993, up
to 480,000 cases of AIDS will have been reported and up to 340,000
Americans will have died from the disease.

(MIKE BARNES, UPI Sports Writer)
Subject: Stricken Magic to be a dad
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 17:07:27 EST
 
	LOS ANGELES (UPI) -- While fans, players and City Hall continued an
outpouring of affection and concern for Magic Johnson, his doctor
confirmed the retired Los Angeles Lakers superstar contracted HIV from
heterosexual activity.
	``This is a heterosexual individual who was infected through
heterosexual activity,'' Lakers team physician Michael Mellman told the
Orange County Register in Friday editions. ``And that is why his message
is coming out for safe sex.''
	Mellman declined all media requests for interviews Friday, saying
through a spokesman that Johnson believes everything concerning his
illness has been addressed.
	A three-time NBA Most Valuable Player who guided the Lakers to five
league championships in his 12 seasons, Johnson announced his retirement
Thursday while revealing he has tested positive for HIV, the virus that
causes acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS).
	Johnson was scheduled to appear on the ``Arsenio Hall Show'' later
Friday.
	Meanwhile, Lakers officials said Johnson's wife, Cookie, is seven
weeks pregnant. Doctors say because she has tested negative for HIV, the
baby would not be affected. The couple was married Sept. 14.
	The Lakers were to play their first game since Johnson's announcement
Friday night against the Suns in Phoenix. A Suns' spokesman said his
team was awaiting word on whether the Lakers wanted to stage a tribute
to Johnson before the 9:35 p.m. EDT game.
	Forum official Bob Steiner said the Lakers received scores of phone
calls and telegrams -- ``far too many to count'' -- concerning Johnson.
And Lakers General Manager Jerry West said ``I simply don't know what we
can do'' to replace the NBA's all-time assist leader.
	The City Council unanimously voted to name a courtyard outside City
Hall in honor of Johnson. The steps and lawn facing First Street -- where
local fans gathered to celebrate the team's five NBA championships --
will now be known as the Magic Johnson Plaza of Champions.
	Councilman Joel Wachs, who introduced the idea, said he admired the
former player's pledge to campaign for awareness and prevention of the
disease.
	``How lucky we are he has chosen to face this new challenge in the
way that he has,'' Wachs said. ``He has given new meaning to the word
'champion.' We thank him for his inspirational leadership in bringing
about a greater understanding and public awareness about AIDS.''
	Chicago Bulls superstar Michael Jordan, who battled Johnson during
the NBA Finals last June, said he was stunned by the news of Johnson's
plight.
	``Just like most people in America, I was shocked, devastated,'' he
said from Deerfield, Ill. ``Myself and other players in the league all
looked up to him. We still look up to him.''
	The Celtics' Larry Bird, who entered the league with Johnson in 1979-
80, did not attend his team's morning shootaround and had not yet
commented on Johnson's illness. Boston was to play home against Atlanta
Friday night.
	Johnson, who according to Forbes Magazine ranks among the world's top
25 sports figures in income -- some say he earns as much as $9 million a
year -- will probably shift from product endorsement to public-service
announcements for the companies he represents.
	``This disease has been largely ignored by corporate America up until
this point,'' said Nova Lanktree, head of the Chicago-based Burns Sports
Celebrity Service, a firm specializing in matching athletes with
corporate sponsors. ``Now there is someone available who they admire to
carry the message that a company cares to the American people.''
	Johnson has contracts with, among others, Spalding, Converse,
Disneyland, Kentucky Fried Chicken, Nestle Crunch and Pepsi. He owns a
major interest in a Pepsi bottling company in Washington, a T-shirt
company and the first in a chain of three stores selling licensed sports
clothing.
	Johnson's greatest challenge on the endorsement level might come from
innuendo. Industry sources said there will be speculation he contracted
the disease from homosexual or drug use, and corporations will have to
decide if they want to stand by Johnson.
	Jack Lacey, Vice President and general manager of Spalding Leisure
Products Group, said his company is with Johnson all the way.
	``Magic Johnson has been a member of the Spalding team since he came
into the NBA,'' Lacey said. ``He's a very important part of our family
and we will support him and his commitment to HIV research in any way
Magic feels is appropriate.''
	From the time people are infected to the time they develop AIDS, 10
or more years can elapse. Another two, three or four years often is
possible even after full AIDS sets in.
	Johnson said Thursday he will beat the disease, but activist Larry
Kramer, who has the AIDS virus, says that won't happen.
	``He's going to die and I'm going to die and the 40 million people
that the World Health Organization predicts are going to be HIV positive
by the year 2000 are going to die,'' Kramer, who founded ACT-UP, the
coalition of AIDS activists, said Thursday night on ABC's ``Nightline.''
	``I was very touched to see Magic Johnson talk about how he is going
to beat it, and how they trotted out a doctor from UCLA to talk about
all those wonderful drugs and treatments that are available for those
who are HIV positive to keep us from getting AIDS, but I'm here to tell
you that these drugs are useless and that Magic Johnson is not going to
beat it.''

 T, what does it really matter how he got, let's face it he could have
 gotten it poppin needles for all we really know or need to know. The
 bottom line is can he get the job done? Will he wake people up and save
 a few lives? Yup and that's all that matters to me. My president pawns
 himself a a_honest citizen and I manage to live with that. I can live with
 Magic be a pawn, if'n he's get the job done...

 mike

    I don't give a rat's ass if Magic is bisexual.  However, if he is and
    he's hiding it that's damaging.  The AIDS industry's credibility has
    already been damaged when their dire predictions have failed to
    materialize.  They're beside themselves with joy now that they have a
    bona fide celebrity infected, one who will probably live for several
    years and be active in AIDS education.  But, my point is that,
    according to the NIH's own statistics, only 3% of male HIV positives 
    in America supposedly contracted it through heterosexual contact.  And
    in the medical literature there's a hot debate about whether these ar
    guys hiding drug use and/or homosexuality.  Also of note was the report
    released two weeks ago that documented that the chances for male-female
    contraction is orders of magnititude greater for women, a study which
    was met with snarling and snapping from the feminazi crowd.
    
    AIDS is hotly debated cuz it's a killer and it's sexually transmitted.
    There's been a lotta bull spread about it exagerrating the risk to 
    heterosexuals by various lobbies with an interest in quelling sexual
    activity: the NIH, the feds, doctors, homosexual activists, feminists,
    insurance companies, the military, and others.
    
    I hope Magic isn't being phony here, but the odds are overwhelming that
    he is.
    
    MrT

    
    I'm just tired ofall of this talk about him being a hero and role
    model. I definitly don't want my kids emulating the behavior that got
    him in this situation. If he's any kind of example at this point, it's
    a bad one. His HIV announcement appears to be a pragmatic way to deal
    with the situation. He would have been discovered regardless, and the
    big announcement allowed him to get the upper hand on the situation. he
    was a terrific basketball player who did something stupid that in all
    likelyhood will kill him. Looking at it in that regard, maybe Roy
    Tarpley should be hailed as a hero as well. 
    
    It's a shame that he got the virus, but hero worship should be saved
    for others more deserving.
    
    Dennis
    

     It has been a few days since Magic first held his news conference saying
that he would have to retire due to the HIV virus. At first I was sad as I
like him as a person and as a Basketball player. I questioned as to how he
got the virus as he originally did not say. I know in some peoples minds this
is not important but I feel it is as for the situation that I am seeing now.
"Panic"!People are panicing and I'm not overstating this. Since he has disclosed
that he has the HIV virus and has now said through a couple different sources,
one of which was his Doctor, that it was by Heterosexual means this has people
jamming the AIDS hot lines and AIDS clinics to find out if they are infected.
There is no reason for panic! Men have a very slim possibility of contracting
the HIV virus Heterosexualy. Heterosexualy for Women it is said they have a 
20% greater chance of contracting the virus due to the act of sex staying in
them for a longer time. As was said a couple notes back Heterosexual
contraction of the disease is a very low risk situation. I am not saying it's
ok to go out there and don't worry about it but it isn't very likely that you
will get it unless you have been having highly risky sexual contact with other
people. Magic, and I'll take his word for it, contracted the virus through
Heterosexual means. He by his own admission has said it was because he had been
sexually active with many woman. With all these women who knows what they did
in the past. Some may have had transfusions, some may have been drug users,
some may have even been hookers whether he knew it or not. With all these type
of different ladies he could have easily picked up the virus at anytime. I do
not know how many he has been with but even if it is 1/10th Chamberlins he
was asking for trouble to not protect himself! The majority of people in the
USA and we might as well include World do not have the amount or type of
sexual relations that would cause them to get the HIV virus. What I really
can't understand is how this intelligent person could have not know and taken
this risk. He must have know about AIDS a long time ago. To know the possible
people he could have encountered and done nothing to protect himself? There is
no excuse for people of general education and of his education to not know
and not protect yourself. If you do it you must accept risk. For him to now
tell people be careful it is possible you can get the HIV virus through
Heterosexual contact is somehow saying if you put a bullet in a chamber and
spin it you have a chance of being shot. How could he have not seen that? I
just hope the children of our World have more common sense for the future!

     I still feel sorry he has the virus and wish it had never happened to him
but he made his choice and now he has to live with it. But he should spell
out that it is a disease that is contracted by people who do high risk
activities! Yes every one should protect themselves (and they should have known
long before now). No you shouldn't be too concerned if you don't fall into the 
high risk category.

     I read the other day where people want to be tested so badly that they are 
paying money to be tested ahead of other people.

     The other extreme is a guy that calls up an AIDS line and says he has had
sexual relations with 12 different women in the last 3 months and should he
have been using a condom? Give me a break!!!!! What planet does this guy come
from!

                                                    Night Flier   ~~v~~

       
    I could be wrong, but I don't recall anyone in here claiming that
    that Magic is a "hero" or a "role model" by coming forward in this 
    affair.  What I heard was that it took courage to do so, and mostly 
    an outpouring of respect and sympathy for the man.  I don't think 
    there's anything wrong with that.  He is a human being, and may have 
    made some mistakes, but I personally don't consider the nature of 
    such "mistakes" to be either unusual or unforgivable. 
    
    I also believe that unless one has maintained a completely monogamous,
    intra-marital sexual life then it's total hypocrisy to point fingers
    at Magic Johnson for contracting the disease, equating it with drug 
    addiction or any other activity condemned by society.  Because indeed, 
    it could have been you...
    
    As for MrT's going against the grain, sure, he did that, but once
    again what the hell is he talking about?  What is his explanation for
    the entire villages and tribes that have been wiped out by the disease
    in Africa, through heterosexual contact?  While it may be true that
    heterosexual transmission is relatively rare in this country, this
    is the first I've heard that any reputable researchers still believe
    that it may not even be possible.  I'm sure the good DrT has his
    sources, as always, though...
    
    glenn
    

Magic has dealt with this with class, dignity, and a positive attitude.

I don't see how anyone can fault him for that.  As to the media circus,
what else could you expect?

JMHO,
'Saw

    re: .101
    
    You haven't been watching the same media outpouring that I have. On
    Saturday, Dick Enberg called him a role model and hero. Yesterday, Pat
    O'Brien did the same. All news reports have been hailing him as a hero
    and role model. I have no problem with his courage, although I still
    believe that alot of the disclosures are not coming from Magic in a
    public forum, rather releases from his doctor. Alot of what has
    transpired appears, IMHO, to be pragmatic on his part, designed to
    garner public opinion favor.
    
    While I won't sit here and say I've lead a totally monogamous life
    before I was married, I do now and so does my wife (at least that what
    she tells me ;*) ). I have no problem with Magic not being totally
    monagomous, but I do have a problem with him not being careful and
    being hailed for it. The situation is because of a behaviour pattern
    that was his doing. I would certainly hail an MS victim or someone with
    someother disease that they did nothing to bring on. That he is going
    to be a spokeman to combat HIV is honorable, but I think in the big
    picture, he's not a role model for me (or my kids, I hope). I realize
    the comparison to Tarpley is not accurate, but it's not far off. If
    Tarpley comes back in 2 yrs and says he's clean and wants back in the
    NBA, I don't want him as a role model either. I would prefer Dale
    Murphy, Kirby Puckett or someone who hasn't got into any trouble as a
    role model for my kids. Once you have fallen and have problems, then
    you may be able to draw inspiration from a fallen hero, but I think you
    should keep in mind that he's fallen. I would prefer my kids not fall,
    if possible. I would also prefer my heros that way as well.
    
    Your milage may vary.
    
    Dennis
    

    
    > I would prefer Dale
    > Murphy, Kirby Puckett or someone who hasn't got into any trouble as a
    > role model for my kids. Once you have fallen and have problems, then
    > you may be able to draw inspiration from a fallen hero, but I think you
    > should keep in mind that he's fallen. I would prefer my kids not fall,
    > if possible. I would also prefer my heros that way as well.
      
    I agree with you, Dennis, but just keep in mind that the only
    difference between Magic and your "heros" may be what you know about
    them, not what kind of people they really are or what they do with 
    their private lives.  With that in mind, I'd be very careful about 
    hero treatment for athletes, across the board.  I try to stay out
    of the hero business altogether and understand that these athletes
    are human, in general no better than you or I as people...
                                                           
    glenn
    

    I don't disagree with your selection of heros and that I may not know
    enough about the other folks I listed, Glenn I'm just sure I don't 
    Magic as one.
    
    Dennis
    
    

 Actually, T's alternative look at the "dark side" of Magic Johnson's
 current situation is well-timed.   
 
 After we've digested the stunning news and lamented on the passing of a
 great career, it is proper to question some of the suspicions surrounding
 the events unfolding.    In the midst of trying to come to grips with this
 myself when it first came out, I wondered out loud about the "flu" excuses
 that kept him out of the opening games.
 
 I think T raises some very interesting points ... I find it very hard to
 believe that he discovered this during some routine life insurance exam. 
 I also find it hard to believe that he wasn't retested *many* times over
 the past few weeks to make 100% sure the results were accurate.   Hell, if
 I were Jerry Buss, I'd have strapped him down on the table myself just to
 make sure.
 
 And, T is right ... the timing of his all-of-a-sudden marriage to his
 long-time girlfriend *is* a little bit fishy.   So is his wife's 7 week
 pregnancy, too.    Seven weeks pregnant means his wife has missed just one
 menstrual cycle.   Most women don't begin to think serious pregnancy until
 they've missed at least two consecutive cycles.   And they say that the
 fetus has tested negative.   Really ???   At 7 weeks, that fetus is barely
 more than a few jazillion cells with matching chromosomes.
 
 But you know what ???  I really don't care.   I don't really care *how* he
 acquired the virus.   I'm willing to cut him total slack (I'm sure he'll
 be grateful ...) on whatever mistakes he may have made or is still making
 if he does nothing more than fulfill his promise and become the true "Pied
 Piper" against the further spread of the disease.
 
 Len Bias did a truly stupid thing when he inhaled all that blow and blew
 his heart out but his memory has been a lightning rod for the dangers of
 cocaine abuse ever since.   Cocaine usage actually *decreased* after Bias'
 famous death.  I don't know what the current usage numbers are now but
 Bias scared a ton of kids against the stuff.
 
 Magic can do the same thing.  He will die.   Sooner or later, his immune
 system will be compromised to the point where AIDS will set in.   It's
 sad, very sad ... in spite of whatever dumb things he did, it's still sad. 
 but if he picks up the fife and whistles a tune that *everyone* will hear,
 then he'll save millions of lives and perform a far greater service than
 any nunber of NBA rings can ever measure up to.
 
 He can take a bad mistake and make his sacrifice mean something.   *THAT*
 would be heroic and, for that potential alone, I don't care what secrets
 the "dark side" holds.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  Wilt Chamberlain's boasting of "20,000 in 20 years" makes him look
 utterly ridiculous now, doesn't it ???   Forget the absurdity that he
 would have to have done it with 3 totally different women every single day
 for the past two decades ... his stupid pride at his promiscuity could not
 have been more poorly timed.

    	I wish I could say I've never done anything stupid.  Matter
    of fact I wish I could say with certainty I will not do anything
    stupid in the future.  But I can't.  The media created Magic the
    Hero, just like they created Bird, then Magic, then Jordan as figures
    who were above the rest of us.  If there is truly anyone out there
    who has not committed any mistakes then I'll heartily recommend
    them for hero status.
    
    				/Don

    
    Wouldn't the fact that Magic's wife is seven weeks pregnant tell
    you guys something?  That, indeed, at the time of his marriage he
    didn't know he had the disease?  So maybe he didn't first learn
    of the positive test until Wednesday.  So maybe that was the date
    he got absolute, final confirmation.  And maybe his wife and future
    child are still at risk.  So what?  Did you expect the man to stand
    up and declare that his loved ones are going to die in front of the
    world?
    
    Bob's right; details like these are pretty irrelevant, and the rampant
    speculation and cynicism are unwarranted...
    
    glenn
    

    Re: dark side of the tragedy
    
    Not only that, but this test has a history of producing false results
    (negatives and positives).  I would've tested him at least 5 times.
    
    KJ is a much better role model, imho.

    The scientists are stumped about why the disease vector is so 
    radically different in west Africa than in Europe and America.
    
    You're right, in Africa the vector is heterosexual.  The nightclubs
    in Nigeria are virtually shut down for that reason.  Meanwhile, in the
    states it's the reverse.  There is speculation that a different strain
    of HIV is in play in Africa, and the fear is that it's a follow-on to
    the one here and that it will eventually migrate here.
    
    As to why it's important whether Magic got it through homosexual
    contact, that's easy: When dealing with something this critical honesty 
    is the best policy, cuz science deals only in facts.
    
    On the sick humor side, after all these years of Magic's personality
    having been referred to as "infectuous"... now this.
    
    MrT

    
    re testing and the announcement timing:
    
    I said in one of my first notes that Magic probably got the results of
    his final retest on Wednesday.  Up until that time he still wasn't 100%
    sure.  I think it's pretty typical for insurance tests (and I'm sure
    Magic has a policy anbd that the Lakers have one on him also) to be
    administered before the season starts.  Like I said, the Magic has aids
    rumors started last Monday.
    
    
    re Why Magic is a hero:
    
    Until he stepped forward and admitted he had the disease, no one of any
    great national stature had done so.  Rock Hudson and Liberace took the
    cowardly way out, never admiting to either having the lifestyle or the
    disease that the lifestyle caused.  Magic admitted he made a mistake
    and in doing so opened the eyes of a lot of people, regardless of how
    or why he caught.  If he had wanted, he could say his tendonitis in his
    knees xacted up and he was retiring so he could go out a winner. 
    People would have bought it (although there would be rumors). I believe 
    that there will be a few people who will be spared the disease because 
    Magic spoke out.  I wonder how many opportunities were missed because 
    Hudson or Liberace weren't willing to sacrifice their "good" name by 
    admitting what everyone already knew.  
    
    
    Bruce

    
    According to one public health official I spoke to recently there are
    at least 12 different strains known in the US alone. It is concievable
    that a vaccine will not be found but a cure may be. The large
    difference between HIV and other viruses is apparently its ability to
    effect genetic makeup.
    
    

    I found T's speculations interesting and have a hunch that we may not
    have heard the end of this tragedy.  Here's more fuel for T's
    speculative fire...
    
Article 2589 of clari.sports.basketball:
From: clarinews@clarinet.com
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Report: Magic being considered for National AIDS panel
Date: 11 Nov 91 09:12:32 GMT
Priority: regular


	LOS ANGELES (UPI) -- The Bush administration is considering naming
newly retired Los Angeles Lakers basketball star and HIV carrier Magic
Johnson to the National Commission on AIDS, The Los Angeles Times
reported Monday.
	Johnson, who Thursday announced he is infected with the virus that
leads to the fatal disease, would fill the vacancy on the commission
left by the recent death of AIDS victim Belinda Mason, the Times
reported.
	Health and Human Services Secretary Louis Sullivan is said to be
enthusiastic about the idea and is expected to lobby the White House to
make the appointment, the newspaper said in its report based on
unidentified sources.
	Johnson ``hasn't given it a lot of thought but has given his consent
to be considered,'' the Times quoted one source as saying. ``I think
he's obviously a hero to many Americans ... so I think he would have a
tremendous impact ... but we can't push him. He still has to take time
to adjust to this.''
	The 32-year-old Johnson, whose infection with the human
immunodeficiency virus forced him to retire from professional
basketball, said he intends to become a spokesman for AIDS prevention.
	Johnson, who was infected from heterosexual activity, also said he
planned to wage a widespread campaign to warn people of the importance
of ``safe sex'' to reduce the threat of AIDS.
	A commission appointment would provide him with a highly visible
national platform to launch such a campaign.
	The 15-member commission was created to advise Congress and the White
House on the development of a national policy to combat the epidemic. It
includes members appointed by Congress and the White House.
	Mason was the only AIDS-afflicted member of the panel until her death
in September. She was appointed to the commission by the White House,
meaning President Bush will select a replacement.
	``There is an enormous ground-swell of support for (Johnson's
appointment),'' Dr. June E. Osborn, who chairs the commission, was
quoted by the Times as saying. ``His name has come up over and over
again in the last few days. I think it would be marvelous. I cannot
think of a more wonderful appointment that could be made than to have
him.
	``There is no question in my mind that Magic Johnson has achieved a
breakthrough that will result in a fundamental sea change,'' she said. 
``I have been frantic to get the message across to children and youth,
and I know damn well that I can't do it. He can.''
	Friday, Bush described Johnson as ``a hero to me'' and ``to everybody
(who) loves sports.'' He said Johnson is ``a gentleman who has handled
his problem in a wonderful way,'' adding, ``I can't tell you the high
regard I have for this athlete.''
	The Times said one of its sources said a prominent member of the
commission ``took (the idea) to Sullivan, who said he was in favor of
it, and now Sullivan's people are checking with the White House.''
	Mason was 33 when she died. She was a Kentucky newspaper reporter and
short-story writer who was infected with the virus during a 1987 blood
transfusion while giving birth to her second child.
	In August, she wrote Bush a highly publicized letter, pleading with
him to reject federal policies that would further stigmatize people with
AIDS.
	Mason specifically urged Bush to reverse current immigration
regulations that forbid the entry of HIV-infected individuals into this
country.

Subject: Suns 113, Lakers 85
Date: 9 Nov 91 06:19:23 GMT
 
	PHOENIX (UPI) -- Jeff Hornacek scored 22 points and Kevin Johnson and
Dan Majerle added 17 each Friday night, propelling the Phoenix Suns to a
113-85 rout of the somber Los Angeles Lakers.
	The Lakers, playing their first game since the surprise retirement of
teammate Magic Johnson after contracting the HIV virus, were visibly
upset prior to the game.
	Former Laker Kurt Rambis called both teams to center court just
before tipoff, where Johnson's teammate of six years, A.C. Green, led a
prayer.
 ``In this darkest of hours, we pray that our Father will give strength
	to Magic and his family,`` said Green, an ordained minister.
	Several Lakers had tears in their eyes during the national anthem,
most visibly Byron Scott, Johnson's backcourt mate for eight seasons.
[....]
	The Suns received more than 150 requests for media credentials for
the game, more than for any contest in the franchise's history,
including playoffs.

Subject: Magic to start treatment
Date: 11 Nov 91 04:29:53 GMT
 
	LOS ANGELES (UPI) -- Magic Johnson's condition is at the point where
drug therapy is warranted to combat the AIDS virus, one of the former
basketball superstar's doctors told the Los Angeles Times.
	Although details of Johnson's treatment were not disclosed, his
immune system has suffered enough damage to begin use of a life-
prolonging drug such as AZT, according to David Ho, director of New York
University's Aaron Diamond AIDS Research Center.
	The Times reported in its Sunday editions that Ho was called in at
the advice of Los Angeles Lakers physician Dr. Michael Mellman.
	The team said Johnson and his wife, Cookie, had left town Saturday on
a private plane and may not return for a week. The Lakers planned a
short pre-game ceremony before Sunday night's game against Minnesota --
the first Forum game since Johnson's dramatic Thursday announcement that
he had tested positive for HIV.
	HIV, or the human immunodeficiency virus, affects the body's ability
to fight infection. Mellman said Friday that Johnson contracted the
virus through heterosexual activity.
	AZT acts to slow the effects of the virus and delay the appearance of
full-blown AIDS, which is fatal.
	Although it is effective in easing the early symptoms of AIDS, AZT
does have serious side effects. Bone marrow destruction, liver damage,
anemia and problems within the nervous system are known to be associated
with the drug.
	Ho, a former UCLA Medical Center head resident, said Johnson's wife
has tested negative for the HIV antibodies and infection. Cookie Kelly-
Johnson, who is seven months pregnant, will repeat the HIV screen in a
few weeks. If that test is negative, her case will be closed for the
time being.

Subject: NBA Roundup
Date: 11 Nov 91 15:04:47 GMT
 
	After a message from Magic Johnson make Los Angeles Lakers fans cry,
the Lakers went out and won their first game at home since their leader
retired.
	Playing their first game at the Forum in Inglewood, Calif., since
Johnson's stunning Thursday announcement that he had contracted the
virus that leads to AIDS, the Lakers defeated the Minnesota Timberwolves
96-86.
	But the highlight of the night came before the game, when forward
James Worthy stood at midcourt and read a statement from Johnson.
	``I want to tell you this is the first day of the rest of our lives,''
Johnson said in the statement. ``I say this to you fans because we, the
Lakers, need your support more than ever before. I say this to all my
teammates, because, starting now, it's winnin' time.''
	The fans, who stood during Worthy's speech, cheered. Some in the
crowd of more than 16,000 sobbed and wiped away tears.
	``He's given us so much over the last 12 years, and he's just
continuing to give,'' said Worthy, who was Johnson's teammate for 10
years. ``Unfortunately, he's given away something none of us could have
imagined, but he's still giving, even today. It's very important to us,
and I'm sure it is to him, that we continue to play, continue to have
the same attitude and continue to win.
	``There's nothing more that Earvin would want then to continue that.
By making a courageous stay that he's had in the last couple of days,
it's only fair we give him the same kind of faith, the same kind of
courageous confidence and the same kind of courageous support he has
given over the last 12 years.''
	Sedale Threatt scored 27 points and added 14 assists while Byron
Scott added 21 points to lead the Lakers. Worthy added 12 points.
	Tony Campbell led Minnesota with 14 points. The Timberwolves fell to
1-8 against the Lakers.
[....]

    Re:.101
    The commissioner also called Johnson a hero.  
    
    In most context for the use of that word, I would tend to very much
    disagree.
    
    Charles
    

    Jocks violate academic integrity of high schools and colleges...
    and serve as spokespersons for education and meanwhile our
    school systems are falling apart.  Jocks do drugs lotsa
    drugs and serve as government spokespersons against drug abuse
    and meanwhile they are the PR key to implementing non-emergency
    drug testing which is a clear violation of constitutional rights.
    Jocks have sex lotsa ses sometimes even homosex and now they too
    will serve as government spokespersons for AIDS prevention and
    meanwhile there's talk among self-interested team owners that there
    should be league-wide programs for involuntary testing for HIV and
    that too will be the PR key to implementing forced testing which
    will also be a clear violation of constitutional rights...
    
    MrT

    re .119
    
    Yeah, I see a pattern. You forgot the word *some* in all of your
    accusations. As in "*some* jocks violate academic integrity..." 
    and "*some* jocks do drugs..."
    
    If your point is that jocks are hypocritical, no doubt that *some* are.
  
    
    

    I don't get it !!!
    
     Magic has had a terrible thing happen to him and now wants to do what
    he can to make sure that it doesn't happen to someone else.  What does
    it matter what He or anyother person trying to make things better has 
    done in the past.....  They are trying to make the future better and
    help other not to make the same mistakes that they have made in thier
    lives....
    
    Give it a rest..
    
    Big Game

 Yes, the pattern is all too obvious.  In this society, we put *FAR* too
 much emphasis on sports and the athletes who play them.
 
 They're not good role models for ourselves or our children.   Their career
 paths are for too narrow and short to be held up as any kind of a model.  
 Their earning power is far out of touch with the rest of us ... although
 that's not their fault and so on and so on ...
 
 Blatant hypocrisy is almost certain to occur (and occur and occur and ...)
 in an environment like this.   But, again, I want to say "So what ???"
 
 Given that we agree that the hypocrisy exists, let's at least harness the
 small potential for good out of it.   Given that people, for all the wrong
 reasons, are more easily swayed by Magic Johnson than by C. Everett Koop,
 let's at least let Magic play point guard in this "game" for life.
 
 I don't like it any better than you or anyone else does but we, the human
 race, have to find some good in this.   That's why *this* particular
 episode of (possible) hypocrisy is a bit easier to swallow.    If Magic
 Johnson can help out on the national AIDS commission, there's no real
 reason to hold him back ... least of all, the commission *MUST* replace
 Belinda Mason otherwise there's very little credibility on that panel.
 
 Bob Hunt

    
    
    	Since I live in Springfield Mass which is the birthplace of
    basketball and home for the Hall of Fame, there is some discussion
    around the issue of the 5 year waiting rule to be waived so that
    Magic can be inducted ASAP.   It's even gone as far as mentioning
    Roberto Clemente in the discussion which I feel is really off base.
    
    	Personally, I feel that Magic should have to wait like the other
    hopefuls.
    
    	How do the rest of you feel about waving the waiting period for
    Magic?
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

    
>    How do the rest of you feel about waving the waiting period for
>    Magic?
     
    If it becomes apparent that he's going to die during the waiting
    period, then it should be waived, for his own benefit.  The waiting 
    period is an arbitrary rule designed to lend the perspective of time 
    to a decision for permanent induction that should be given careful
    consideration.  But there's absolutely no doubt in anyone's mind that 
    Magic is a Hall of Famer.  To stick to rules for rules' sake under 
    such extenuating circumstances strikes me as silly and maybe even a 
    little bit cruel.
    
    glenn
    

    re .123:
    
    >	How do the rest of you feel about waving the waiting period for
    >   Magic?
    
    I would only waive the waiting period in cases where a player dies
    before the five years is up.   
    
    
    py

 The five-year waiting rule for election to a Hall Of Fame is in place
 specifically to prevent Magic Johnson from entering *now*.   
 
 Suppose he gets better ???   Suppose he doesn't but decides to play again
 anyway, no matter what his doctors say ???   Suppose he coaches or manages
 or even owns a team ???
 
 He is ill which is different than dead.   Clemente died and was honored
 posthumously.   Magic should wait the mandatory five years.   If it
 becomes obvious that he will die of AIDS before that time, then the
 discussion can be re-opened.
 
 Bob Hunt

       As the HOF director said in Sturdays Glob, it's up to the Hall's
    Board of Directors. He also pointed out that there was a big cry to put
    Thurman Munson in right after his accident. Turns out he has never been
    elected. Magic surely will, but I can't see waving the rule.
                                     Denny

    the 5-year rule is also designed to prevent comebacks, where the player
    is only a shadow of his former self. The only player I can think of who
    did come back after being elected to the HoF was Guy Lafleur. Truly
    remarkable that he was able to still come back after well over 5 years
    away from the game.
    
    I'm kinda mixed on this one. No one will doubt that Magic is HoF material, 
    so it seems that it's a matter of time anyway. Time is one thing that
    is not in Magic's favor. However, if it turns out to be not as bad as we 
    had feared (hey, I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV), and he does 
    come back.... After all, he IS only 32 and was at the top of his game, so 
    it is possible.  On the other hand, if his condition worsens, they should 
    do it ASAP. It's always sad when a player gets elected to the HoF after 
    his death. His widow or children give the speech, saying what a great 
    honor it is, etc., but they wish the player could have lived to see it.
    
    Tom                                         

    re .123
    
    	The birthplace of basketball was a little further north, in
    CANADA... well, at least the concept and invention of the game by
    everyone's favourite Canadian, Dr. Naismith.

    ACK!!!!!!!!
    
    Comparin' Magic to Thurman Munson?!?!?!?!?!?  Yeah, right - nice
    analogy.  Munson was a decent catcher with four or five good years
    out of an 11 year career when he died.  Magic IS THE BEST BASKETBALL
    PLAYER EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    I love the argument that says wait five years or until after he dies.
    We wouldn't want to honor him when he's alive now, would we?!?!?!?!?
    Let's wait until his body is ravaged with AIDS, and he's bed-ridden,
    and only has days or weeks to live - then honor him!!!!
    
    I've never seen anything that says you have to be dead or dying to
    get into the Hall of Fame.
    
    NAZZ

       I didn't compare Munson to Magic. I compared the call for early
    induction which seems to be happening in both cases. I said Munson was
    never elected and Magic surely will be.
                                      Denny

    One of Magic's points is he's still healthy, he's still Earvin.  Just
    not playing hoops anymore.  I think inducting him early, in a sense,
    goes against what he's been preaching.  He's got the virus, but he
    ain't dead yet.  Don't pull in the time period yet.

    I don't think he should be inducted early either.  I don't believe
    we've heard the final details on this tragedy...

    This was in the paper lasted Friday, but I just got the chance to put
    it in tonight.
    
    
MAGIC TO PLAY ON DIFFERENT COURT
reprinted from The Pittsburgh Press
Friday, November 8, 1991

by

Gene Collier

	What happened with Magic Johnson yesterday surely should not allow for
even the most strained sports parallel, but he is and we are now and always
prisoners of our own perspectives, and so he spoke yesterday of the battles and
the wars and of coming out swinging.
	just before 4 o'clock yesterday afternoon, the AP reported that in a
news conference to come two hours hence, Magic Johnson would announce his
retirement from basketball because he is HIV-positive.
	So when he stood without introduction behind a lectern inside
Inglewood's fabulous Forum, an entire nation knew what it was Magic Johnson had
to address, knew what it was he'd tell us eventually.
	And yet the way he said it was absolutely unforgettable.
	He was, and you should forgive this, as stunning in heartbreak as he
was in fastbreak.
	He said good afternoon, and then he said, "Because of the HIV virus I
have attained, I will have to announce my retirement from the Lakers' today."
	Whuh????
	We were waiting for him and he blew right by us.  He what? And he
what??  We sat there stunned, our preparation a wreckage.  And Magic was gone
back up the court, awaiting his life's next big play.
	"I will now become a spokesman for the HIV virus because I want people,
young people, to realize they can practice safe sex.  And, you know, sometimes
you're a little naive about it and you think it could never happen to you.  You
only thought it could happen to, you know, other people and so on and on.  And
it has happened."
	But I'm going to deal with it and my life will go on.  And I will be
here enjoying the Laker games and all the other NBA games around the country. 
So life is going to go on for me, and I'm going to be a happy man."
	There may never be a greater example fo poise than this was.
	But watch the poise on the rest of us, won't you?
	Observe now how the corporate opportunists who affixed themselves to
him fall away, along with $12 million to $15 million annually in endorsements.
	Observe now how he'll be stigmatized, his image vandalized by the
compassionless and ignorant.
	Know that right now some slime is readying a half dozen Magic Johnson
jokes, with six more ready for release next week.  That oughta hold 'em until
the next high profile tragedy.
	Observe too the hopeful, for they will be the ones who'll predict that
we turned the corner toward effective AIDS policy the day Magic retired.  could
it be that simple?
	The virus thrives after a full decade of failed public health policy, a
decade of failed leadership, of leadership that might have rationalized its own
myopic approach by delineating AIDS victims from those of more "respectable"
diseases.
	By 1985, only a few hundred AIDS cases had been diagnosed in Great
Britian, but that was enough for then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher to
initiate comprehensive education and treatment programs throughout England.  By
1987, 40,000 AIDS cases had been diagnosed in the United States, but all this
government could do was appoint a commission, several of whose members quit in
disgust over the Reagan Administration's lack of commitment.
	In the months before the 1988 primaries, Democratic presidential
hopefuls predictably blistered the AIDS policy on a two-hour NBC special,
irking the heck out of then Vice President George Bush.  "There's a lot going
on in AIDS," Bush said.  "And to hear these guys wringing their hands about
everything being wrong with this country, I'm sorry, I just am all depressed
and want to switch over to see 'Jake and the Fatman' on CBS. Sorry."
	Now, approximately 200,000 AIDS cases have been diagnosed in America at
a fallout cost of some %60 billion.
	"AIDS impacts us all," M Roy Schwarz, the chairman of the American
Medicla Association's AIDS task force was telling media last night.  "There is
no way around that.  We now all know somebody who has it."
	Johnson's story is the contemporary American tragedy.  That he will
spend the last part of his life using his enormous influence on young people as
a catalyst against what experts have called "the post-modern plague" is indeed
the stuff of heroism.
	Perhaps should there ever come a time when this devastating virus is
either controlled or licked, no one will ever have to ask why they called him
"Magic".




JaKe

    1)  I don't believe the waiting period should be waived, unless his
    physical condition changes dramatically for the worse.  Not that he
    needs to be on his deathbed, but to where he certainly cannot again
    play the game.
    
    2)  His announcement may well be the turning point in the attention
    given to research for the cure of AIDS, or at least to the treatment of
    this terrible disease.  A true cure for those now afflicted, and any
    medical means to stop further spreading of the disease, must be in the
    not-near future.  I just hope it doesn't take as long as it did to find
    the cure for Polio.
    
    3)  How he contacted this condition is unimportant to me.  What matters
    is that he and far too many others have it, and there's nothing
    available today to change that.  People are dying.  Sure, we can say
    that some of them aren't taking enough precautions to keep from
    becoming afflicted, but the point is that the disease exists and it
    kills humans.  I don't see any other point that has more importance
    than that.
    
    4)  Heard this AM that Dave Gavitt has NOT ruled out Magic playing for
    the Olympic team, and that he will meet with Ervin in the near future
    to discuss this.  It was, until this recent development, his chief
    desire to add an Olympic Gold to his honors.  I'm sure that it takes a
    backseat to now finding a cure for AIDS.  Apparently his medical
    condition is such that it ISN'T out of the question at this time.
    
    5)  Regarding professional athletes playing after induction to their
    particular HOF - Seems to me that Gordie Howe also played, in addition
    to Guy LaFleur.  Anyone out there know for sure?  I may be wrong, as I
    usually am :*), but I think he did.
    
    lEe

   >1)  I don't believe the waiting period should be waived, unless his
   >physical condition changes dramatically for the worse.  Not that he
   >needs to be on his deathbed, but to where he certainly cannot again
   >play the game.

     Agreed. There is no need to rush this as so far has been said it can
    take up to 10 or more years before the AIDS virus debilitates him to 
    the point of where he only has a short while left to live.
    
   >4)  Heard this AM that Dave Gavitt has NOT ruled out Magic playing for
   >the Olympic team, and that he will meet with Ervin in the near future
   >to discuss this.  It was, until this recent development, his chief
   >desire to add an Olympic Gold to his honors.  I'm sure that it takes a
   >backseat to now finding a cure for AIDS.  Apparently his medical
   >condition is such that it ISN'T out of the question at this time.

     Hope this does not happen. His doctor has told him basically if he plays
    Basketball he has the chance of further damaging his system. Playing in
    the Olympic's will not help him only harm him. I see no problem traveling
    with the team and possibly being an Assistant coach but having him play
    will take away the focus on the Basketball team. It will turn into a AIDS
    meeting instead of a Basketball Tournament. AIDS should not be used as a
    forum in the Olympic's. If someone wants to throw on AIDS commercials during
    the Sponsors breaks I have no problem with that but not during the sports
    events!

     Just a little interesting reading I read in a paper last night...6% of
the HIV virus cases in the Western Hemisphere are contracted by Heterosexual
means. 3% of that 100% of 6% is contracted by the Male. Women are at much
greater risk than men but, can definitely contract the HIV virus. If these
figures are true (and that was what was written) I would say Magic is one
very unlucky person having what he says was Heterosexual only relationships.
No matter either way, a woman should say no without the man using a "spandex 
beanie"(tm). And if the man is caring enough he will provide it! Otherwise
the woman should tell him to go use a light socket, turn it on, and see how
safe that type of sex is! I think he will get the message.

      I still hope that before Magic's system is beyond repair that they find
a cure or at least something that will stop the progression of the virus. He
is definitely going to need better luck than he had originally!

                                                       Night Flier   ~~v~~

    
>                          -< wait until all the facks are in >-
>
>    I don't think he should be inducted early either.  I don't believe
>    we've heard the final details on this tragedy...
 
    What additional details would be relevant to Magic's induction into 
    the Basketball Hall of Fame, Mike?
    
    glenn
    

    re: story in Pittsburgh paper
    
    Blaming the Reagan/Bush administrations for Magic contracting the HIV
    virus is utterly ridiculous.  I keep hearing about the need for AIDS
    education.  Do people live in caves?  If I had a dollar for every
    advertisement, newspaper story, magazine story, television documentary,
    television news story, etc, etc. that discussed AIDS and how it can be
    avoided, I'd be buying that new car the wife has been bugging me for.
    
    It *might* be possible for folks of various economic depravity to plead
    ignorance, though I'm skeptical of this.  But Magic?  No way.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

   
    > Blaming the Reagan/Bush administrations for Magic contracting the HIV
    > virus is utterly ridiculous.
    
    Whether you agree or disagree with the article, nowhere did it make
    any such statement as the above.  What it said was that the virus
    still thrives after a decade of failed leadership on the issue,
    with absolutely no commentary as to what degree specific individuals 
    like Magic are also accountable.  If you twist that opinion into the 
    above, of course no one is going to disagree with you...
    
    glenn
    

    
     I say leave the rules the way they are....  Magic has played
    by the rules his entire life,  I think he'd like to play by 
    them now !!
    
    Big Game

    The fact that the writer combined the tragedy of Magic contracting the
    virus with a stinging account of the Reagan/Bush handling of the
    disease without explicitly talking about specific individual
    accountability is completely intellectually dishonest.  (Yet a common
    theme of todays media.)
    
    The other point that bothers me is this whole business of "safe sex".  
    I find it more than ironic that no one will discuss one of the most 
    obvious realities of this whole thing.  Namely, that if a boy and girl 
    are able to maintain their virginity prior to marriage, there is virtually 
    NO chance of contracting the disease.  NONE.  And yet no one will say
    this, presumably because our culture is so sexually oriented that this
    is apparently considered ridiculously antiquated.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Glenn,
    
>By 1987, 40,000 AIDS cases had been diagnosed in the United States, but all this
>government could do was appoint a commission, several of whose members quit in
>disgust over the Reagan Administration's lack of commitment.
>	In the months before the 1988 primaries, Democratic presidential
>hopefuls predictably blistered the AIDS policy on a two-hour NBC special,
>irking the heck out of then Vice President George Bush.  
    
    + subconscious conservative guilt = Collier says Reagan/Bush gave Magic AIDS
    
    You get used to this kind of rhetorical twisting here in the south. 
    They'll do almost anything to ignore the obvious, take the spotlight of
    the subject by twisting words around, to protect the reputations of such
    astute men as Helms, Reagan, and Bush.
    
    Remember, Jesse Helms said on the Senate Floor, "We don't need to put
    money into AIDS research.  Just let all these perverts and drug abusers
    kill each other off and the problem will go away."  Sounds like
    something people would have said 10 years ago, right?  Old Jesse said
    it in the spring of 1990.
    
    HTH.
    
    	--dan'l

    Nice twist dan'l, but I would never say anything close to what Helms
    said.  I disagree violently with that kindof calus attitude.
    
    My beef is in two (2) areas:
    
    1. AIDS is close to 100% preventable.
    
    2. Various groups keep screaming about the need for education, and
       my personal observation is that I've been absolutely inundated
       with AIDS education for *years* now, and that if I'm not aware
       of the risks by now I must not only be illiterate but never flip
       on my TV.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Here's a surprise - I agree with Chris about AIDS being preventable and
    about there being enough education - to a point.  I really don't know
    what sort of sex education is going on in the schools though, and
    unless there is open and comprehensive sex education at all levels of
    our schools, I don't think our children are being educated enough.
    
    Abstinence is the answer, too, and I don't think teenagers should
    become sexually active until they are able to be responsible about it. 
    While noble, however, I think total abstinence among our youth and
    unmarried people is impractical and isn't going to happen.  Anyone who
    thinks it is going to happen is being naive.  The only reason I'm
    abstinent right now is because I'm not seeing anybody seriously enough
    where sex has become an issue, but if it happens I'm not willing to be
    abstinent until I'm married.  There Catholic Church, I said it.  On the
    other hand, I know how to protect myself, have done so and will do so
    in the future.  If I get AIDS as a result of my behavior then I have no
    one but myself to blame.  I play the game, I know the odds, it's up to
    me to take care of me and accept the consequences if I don't.
    
    My major complaint with the Reagan Administration is the way they
    danced around the AIDS issue at the beginning.  Their line about it
    being transmitted by exchange of bodily fluids was so nebulous that it
    was meaningless and contributed to a lot of the fear and misconceptions
    that now exist about the disease.  Exchange of bodily fluids could mean
    anything - being kissed, being sneezed on, being spat upon.  It made
    life more difficult for the Ryan Whites of the world.
    
    And while sympathetic towards all people who have AIDS, the bulk of my
    sympathies go with the innocent victims such as Ryan White.  I give
    less (and in some cases, no) sympathy to those whose lifestyles and
    behavior contributed towards their getting the disease.  If I believe
    (as I do) that one of the big problems in this country is people being
    unwilling to stand up and take responsibility for their own actions
    (which is one of the leading causes of lawsuit mania), then if someone
    sick through something they did or didn't do when they could have
    prevented it from happening, they must bear some degree of
    responsibility for their condition.  (Just like my dad, who is likely
    to smoke himself to death one of these days).
    
    I'm sorry if I offend anyone.
    
    John

>    1. AIDS is close to 100% preventable.
    
    No, Chris.  AIDS is 100% non-spreadable.  Unfortunately, individual
    responsibility takes a back seat to human nature in the height of
    passion or to a drug addict.
    
>       my personal observation is that I've been absolutely inundated
>       with AIDS education for *years* now, and that if I'm not aware
>       of the risks by now I must not only be illiterate but never flip
>       on my TV.
    
    Agreed.  Me to.  But we are both middle-class, white, heterosexual
    males...the lowest percentage of the population to contract AIDS. 
    Magic's unfortunate contraction will become the best thing yet to
    heighten awareness in the lower-class minority communities, and for
    most of America (if not the world) in general.
    
    	--dan'l

    To those of you stating that you don't see the need for more AIDS
    education:
    
    Here at Digital, we have an information-rich environment.  The company
    has done a *lot* to make sure that all of us know the current known
    facts, probable facts, and recommended preventive measures.  It has
    reached a point where the fact that we are getting this information is
    subliminal.  In the last week, I've been acutely aware of several
    instances where the media have been less than precise in their
    descriptions of what's going on with Magic, and with other AIDS
    victims.
    
    My son's high school had a very comprehensive AIDS education segment. 
    It was needed - in a school of less than 400, I know of at least two
    girls who have been pregnant.  (It isn't being presented this year, to
    the best of my knowledge, because of budget cutbacks.)  So there are
    kids in his school having unprotected intercourse.  Nice, suburban,
    non-impoverished, intelligent kids -- who are as mixed up about their
    sexuality as I was at that age.  My son knows less about AIDS
    prevention than I do.  He doesn't (make that didn't) know how to use a
    condom correctly.  Neither did I until I found out from DEC.  For those
    who are going to be sexually active - and I have strongly encouraged
    abstinence with my son - that is the level of education that is needed. 
    How do you choose which condom to buy from the drug-store display?  How 
    do you tell your partner that you need to put the "rascal wrapper" on 
    *now*.  How do you know when *now* is.  (Remember your first sexual
    encounter? how confused it was? how you weren't quite sure what went
    were and when?  and then, omigod, I've actually *done it*!)  
    
    Finally, to those who preach "wait until after you're married".  I'm
    sorry, but I won't.  Sexual compatability within the marriage is too
    important to me to be left to chance.  I'll be very, very careful, and
    picky, and ask for testing.  And I've certainly slowed down how quickly
    things progress in that arena.  But reality is that no one in my family
    has made it to the wedding night a virgin for at least three
    generations, I don't expect it to be different for the next, and I
    don't expect that my family is so different from millions of others. 
    So knowing how to practice safer sex, in explicit and concrete ways, is
    important
    
    Alison
    

>    Finally, to those who preach "wait until after you're married".  I'm
>    sorry, but I won't.  Sexual compatibility within the marriage is too
>    important to me to be left to chance.  

    Good point.  As my mother told me when I, a mere lad of about 12 or 13,
    asked her about whether it was right or not to have premarital sex:

    "Well, son, you don't buy a pair of shoes until you try them on."

    I have a very cool mom.

    	--dan'l

    I think the distinction needs to be made between AIDS cases in the US
    and places such as the developing world, where people are unlikely to get 
    what we would call formal education. It really is a case of apples and
    oranges.
    
    Yes, here in the US we are bombarded with information, and depending on 
    the segment of the population, it may or may not sink in. Magic may be
    able to bridge the gap and help this informatin sink in in areas where it 
    generally hasn't so far, such as minority teens and young people. BTW, as 
    far as "AIDS education" goes, I don't know how this is treated in the 
    schools, but at home is where parents can make the diffeence in making 
    sure their kids get accurate information.
    
    As far as AIDS as a health issue in Africa, you have to understand how
    those societies work. Outsiders can't just lecture people that they should 
    do this or that, it won't work. Africans have become weary of (often
    well meaning) whites who come in and show them ways that will improve
    their lives. This can range from encouraging planting of crops that are
    not suited for the climate/soil type/enviroment to "white man's medicine"
    which is expensive and not cost-efficient, instead of preventative
    medicine/wellness. If a condom costs .75 to $1 apiece in the US,
    imagine what they cost in Africa if you include the usual markup for 
    imported goods, tarrifs, etc. Nigeria's per-capita income is about $1,200 
    per year, which is much better than a lot of African countries. People
    are having a difficult time surviving, much less thriving. Be realistic, 
    for the price of a condom, a family can get 2-3 meals. Food and clothing 
    take a priority, like it or not.
    
    Tom

    Not to pick on you A&W, but you mention you're encouraging abstinence
    with your son, yet feel sexual relations during marriage to be too
    important to put to chance.
    
    Seems contradictory ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    THere have been some excellent points made in the last several notes
    (ACC_Chris excluded as usual!!!), but I must disagree with those who
    feel there has been enough education on the subject.
    
    My oldest child is a 13 year old boy in 8th greade.  I asked him
    over the weekend if his school had ever given him any literature
    or information about aids.  The answer:  no.  In fact, there is not
    even a full-time nurse at his school any longer, due to budget cuts.
    
    It is not us employed middle-aged folks that need AIDS education;
    it is our youth and our minorities that need their awareness 
    heightened and then continually reinforced.
    
    Magic's role in life now is to do just that, and I can think of no
    better spokesperson to carry forward that message.
    
    NAZZ

    One point a interest is that Magic-the-hero and Magic-the-sex-educator
    has in all a his educational pronouncements (except those frequent
    press releases insiting that he's not bisexual) preached for people,
    especially kids, to practice safe sex.  Nothing about abstinence.
    
    MrT 

>RHETT::KNORR "Carolina Blue"                         16 lines  13-NOV-1991 09:37
>    Namely, that if a boy and girl 
>    are able to maintain their virginity prior to marriage, there is virtually 
>    NO chance of contracting the disease.  NONE.  And yet no one will say
>    this, presumably because our culture is so sexually oriented that this
>    is apparently considered ridiculously antiquated.  
    
    
    How does Pepper fit into this (implied to be evil) sexually oriented 
    society, Chris?  
    
    
    Charlie
    
    

 Wow.   What a fascinating discussion !!!   Nice to see that people can
 share their open and frank feelings on these critical topics in this
 forum.   All viewpoints I've seen so far have individual merit and that's
 a somewhat of a mild upset in here. :-)
 
 The only addition I'd like to make to all of this is admittedly slanted
 towards my own life but I'm sure it rings true for many others in here or
 could ring true in the years to come ...
 
 Take care of your children.  Educate them.  Nurture them.  Protect and
 defend them.   Yes, you have to let them fly on their own someday but
 please, please, please be open and honest with them as they progress
 through their childhood and approach their adolesence and adulthood.
 
 From a child's eye, who better to learn about the wonders and worries of
 human sexuality than from the humans who together gave you your life ???  
 Your children need all the information they can get about sex ... free of
 hysteria, free of guilt, free of concern.
 
 The schools can teach them the facts and figures.  Fine.   But they should
 feel free to come to *YOU* for confirmation and to sort out their
 confusions.    Be there for them.   It might be one of the most difficult
 things you'll ever have to do with them but do it anyway.   You just might
 be the ones who'll keep them alive.
 
 I'm watching the MicroHUNTs blossom as each and every day goes by.   I'm
 frightened to death that when the day comes that they'll be ready to flap
 their own wings and take off that there will still be so much left sadly
 unsaid between us ... 
 
 Bob Hunt

    Hopefully this isn't a repeat, but I heard the following on our local
    news last night:  Magic has co-authored an article in the new SI this
    week that makes comments contrary to what has been said.  A couple of
    things mentioned were that he knew he had the HIV virus two weeks prior
    to the announcement and "God willing" he will play in the Olympics this
    summer.  
    
    Has anyone else heard about this?
    
    
    Spud

    Chris -
    
    It's the difference between promiscuity and absolute virginity.
    
    I certainly expect him to "do as I do" and not "do as I say", which is
    what most kids actually do.  I also feel (and acted on) that high
    school is not yet sufficiently mature emotionally to deal with the
    intensity of "full intercourse sexual" relationships.  (Let's face it,
    kissing is a sexual relationship too -- and high school kids *are* and
    *should* be doing that.  :-)  :-)  )  He's seen me trying to pick up
    the pieces after relationships that didn't work out, too.  The basic
    message is that intercourse deserves to be a *big deal* because it is,
    on all levels, from physical through emotional to (at its best)
    spiritual.
    
    Bob Hunt said the most important piece.  Be as honest, open, and
    accepting of your kids emerging sexuality as you can.  Tell them about
    how you feel - both good and bad.  Start early, and keep on with it. 
    It pays big dividends in the end, even if you come off looking less
    than perfect.
    
    Alison

    Well, I for one don't understand why young people cain't keep their
    pants on and abstain from "doing it" or "going all the way" or whatever
    they call it nowadays.  *I* maintained my flower of virginity until I
    was 26 years of age, and even then I didn't want to give it up but I
    was on the road on a biz trip and found myself - tired, lonesome - in
    a hotel disco and, well, between the music and the beers... I was
    seduced.
    
    I'm not proud of what I did, but actually I feel better already just
    for having confessed it in public.
    
    MrT 

    "Being a virgin is nothing to be ashamed of.  Not being a virgin is
    nothing to be ashamed of.  But I'd rather not be ashamed of not being a
    virgin than not be ashamed of being a virgin."
    
    --from a noted fraternity house philosopher, circa 1976

    Someone hit on it, and it's a major issue with me. 
    
    AIDS kills PEOPLE.  Not just citizens of the good ole USA, but PEOPLE.
    
    People of all ages, sexes, religions, nationalities, races, and any
    other catagory you can think of.
    
    On education, you can't stop and say, "Well, we told everybody.  Now
    it's up to them."  First, you can't possibly tell everyone.  Second,
    there is a fresh crop of 13-year-olds every year.  So, if you told a
    kid when he was 8, does that mean he's covered when he becomes able to
    perform the sex act?
    
    Regarding contacting the disease, it just isn't from sex, wether
    heterosexual or bisexual, or whatever.  Recently, an honored veteral
    passed away from AIDS.  He contacted it from his wife, who contacted it
    from a transfusion.  She has already passed away, as has a child of
    theirs who got it from the mother.  There's one daughter left, under 10
    I believe.  Her entire family was wiped out.  Can you imagine the
    outrage if it had been done by a madman?  Then, why is AIDS so
    different?  Her family is just as dead as if they had been blown to
    smithereens.
    
    I don't believe that the world can be made safe for everyone in every
    possible situation.  You just can't legislate safety, although our
    heroes in Washington keep trying.  But, you CAN continue to educate
    people to the risks of their actions, and you CAN work to develop both
    an effective treatment and a cure, as well as preventative measures.
    I don't believe that this country is doing all it can do, at this
    time.  And, I don't have any idea as to how we can turn that around
    immediately.  But, maybe, just maybe, the attention given to Magic will
    help us on this journey.
    
    Folks, we've GOT to GET there.  Quickly, too.
    
    lEe

       Magic also supposedly admits in SI that he 'lived the life of a
    bachelor to the hilt' during his NBA travels. Said he wasn't as active
    as Wilt but he did his share.
                                    Denny

>    It's the difference between promiscuity and absolute virginity.
    
    To take this one step further, I'm promiscuous as hell...especially
    right now in my life after falling out of a meaningful relationship. 
    In fact, the other day someone called me a slut because they found out
    just how much and with how many I've been...well you know.  But I'm
    careful every single time...even when I'm asked not to be.
    
    People lead and enjoy different lifestyles.  Let's not condemn one over
    the other.  The real point here is, as Mr. Johnson will advocate, safe
    sex can save your life.  That's the bottom line.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    	I have a question and it involves not only Magic but many other
    folks who are HIV+ and those who will become HIV+.
    
    	In a case like Magic, what are the ramifications if Magic had
    the virus and passed it on to a young lady friend?  Could this 
    individual prosecute?  Will this individual prosecute?
    
    	I finally heard in this note string someone mention the fact
    that abstinence should be taught as opposed to safe-R sex.  There is
    no such beast as "safe sex" only safe-r sex.  All sexual relations
    are at some risk.  What we should be doing is educating to prevent
    the "typhoid Mary syndrome" which is abstinence.
    
    	Instead of preaching the safe-r sex route, abstaining should also
    be taught.  As a parent, I am THE role model for my kids.  My kids
    will probably emulate my actions good or bad.  They may not follow 
    the same path I have chosen, but it is my job as a parent to be THE
    role model.  I will teach my kids to abstain (for a number of reasons)
    and at this point, it is the only fool proof method of not contracting 
    or spreading the disease.  Those who choose a non-monogomous
    relationship are playing with not only their lives, but the lives of
    others.  
    
    	Also, since when should the teaching be left to the school
    system?  Most schools can't even teach kids how to read or write so
    how does anyone expect them to teach kids about AIDS?  As parents,
    where do our responsibilites start and end at teaching our children?
    I'm certainly not going to leave sex education up to the school 
    system just as I am not leaving it up to them to teach the 3 R's.
    
    	People also clamor about more education.. Well, in the face of
    the present situation, the only education one really needs is that
    abstinence is the only sure-fired method and that is what we should
    be educating with.  Gee, and along the way, just think how many 
    teenage pregnancies and unwanted pregnancies we would eliminate.
    Ahh, but abstinence doesn't sell cars, beer, movies, razors, etc..
    
    
    							bill..g.
    
    

    Wasn't Koop's message that abstinance was the best preventative, but
    barring that, at least be safe?  We haven't heard Magic's cut at it
    yet.  He may come out and say that you can't get much safer than
    abstinance, so cut him some slack.
    
    There was an article in USA Today yesterday addressing the rumors
    around Magic's sexual preference.  The writer questioned why we haven't
    seen stories in the tabloids over the past 10 years.  It's not like
    Johnson can travel around in relative obscurity.  He's 6'9" and one of
    the highest marketed individuals on the planet.  The writer suggests
    that the reason that people are questioning his sexuality is so that
    they can continue to place themselves in the low risk group and feel
    good about it.
    
    As to the Olympics affecting Magic's health, the doctors told him that
    the rigors of professional basketball is what would effect him, not
    playing the game.  There is a big difference between playing in a
    tournament over a couple of weeks and playing the duration of a
    grueling NBA season.  Magic has said that he will continue playing the
    game, just not on a professional level.

    RE: Magic and the Olympics
    
    Excuse me if this was brought up last week while I was out.  If Magic
    announces he will compete in the Olympics, how long do you think it
    will be before some countries choose to not play the US team using the
    excuse that they have a diagnosed HIV-positive player?  There has been
    known bloodshed in hoops.
    
    	--dan'l

    Charles Barkley has traded in his number 34 for 32 to honor Magic upon
    his retirement.  Barkley was given permission by Billy Cunningham (I
    think) since this number was retired by Philly.

    re .157
    
    T, perhaps if teh MrT's of the world would stop looking to pin the
    "Magic The Bisexual" tag on the man, with very marginal 'evidence' and 
    accept his version as truth (until you can clearly prove otherwise),
    then maybe the press releases can stop.
    
    As for the lack of abstience, I was disappointed, but let's be
    realistic. Sex will happen, and continue to happen. Magic knows that a
    pro-abstaince message will at best all on deaf ears, and at worse be
    laughed at.
    
    Teens WILL listen to putting on a condom. Like it or not, that is the
    facts of the matter. The best and only good way for teens to have less
    sex is for the PARENTS to sit down and have some honest talks about sex
    and sexuality.
    
    Instead we have Ray Flynn around here saying that condoms will
    INCREASE the HIV infection rate.
    
    Huh ?
    
    A lot of parents seem to think, "If I talk to my kids about this,
    they'll have sex !"
    
    Ha. The joke is that instead of the kids not having sex, they are still
    doing it - only they're doing it in a state of near total ignorance.
    
    Teens aren't the only ones who need to wake up ....
    
    Doc

    So, Hawk, is your hoops idol Tree Rollins?

    re .172 - Hawk, I agree 100%.
    
    Personally, I hope Magic doesn't play in the Olympics.  If he does, the
    spotlight will be on him and Aids and not on the greatest basketball
    team to ever hit the Olympic hardwood.
    
    If I were playing, I would have trouble playing a real tight defense,
    etc.  It's not worth the risk of sustaining a cut and possibly
    transfering the virus.  I would not be surprised to not only see
    individuals boycott the games if he plays, but perhaps entire squads.
    
    I return to my first point.  I want the emphasis to be on the US
    basketball team, not on one man.
    
     - Wildcat

    I hope no one gets the impressions from my last note that I'm
    unsympathetic towards the HIV virus and its victims.  Quite the
    contrary.  I just want the Olympics to focus on sport, and not social
    issues, politics, etc.  We get enough of the other in our day-to-day
    lives.
    
     - Wildcat

    re .163
    
    T, de troof of the matter is that you spent the first 26 years of yo
    life in Bobby Knight country, and that you grew up a blatant Dean
    supporter. 
    
    This fack, combined with the destructive tendancies of your Chinaware 
    Catapult (tm) kept you a virgin for over a quarter of a century.
    
    And that's a fact.
    
    DrM

    I just read the last 20+ notes, just wanted to say that I agree with
    Bob, A&W, and Goose. I hope other parents across the country are taking
    the reins like you are - at last. Schools can't teach morality. Parents
    can. And I'd like to see abstiance taught as well as safe-R sex. But
    one or the other just won't do it. And kids see what their parents do -
    don't think any different. When they see promiscuity glorified, how can
    you BLAM them when they go out and try to emulate that behavior ? And
    when you sit on your hands and do nothing about it ?
    
    Let me tell you all, I'm 26 and single. And I don't break mirrors
    (unless I throw bricks at them :-). I guess I'm ahead of the game in
    that I'm not a real "player", and monogomous at worst.
    
    And I've older people tell me, "I wouldn't want to be in your shoes for
    a million dollars."
    
    I see why now. It only takes one mistake to kill you now.
    
    Does anyone know where I can get a centrifuge, electron microscope, et
    al from ?
    
    :-)
    
    Doc

    Well, Rugby just finished an international competition.  There is
    probably more of a chance for intermingling blood in that sport than
    there is basketball.  While there was random drug testing, there was
    no HIV testing, and nonone threatened to pull out of competition
    because the US was there and they have the highest number of AIDS cases
    of the countries competing.  There are precautions taken, however.  It
    is pretty much general practice at all levels of the sport that if
    bleeding can't be controlled, the injured player must be removed from
    the game.
    
    I understand the fear of having the true reasons for the Olympics
    taking a back seat to Magic and his health, but don't blame Magic for
    this.

Article 2597 of clari.sports.basketball:
From: clarinews@clarinet.com
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Friend defends Magic against allegation of being 'womanizer'
Date: 12 Nov 91 08:59:10 GMT
Priority: regular


	LOS ANGELES (UPI) -- The best man at Earvin ``Magic'' Johnson's
wedding challenged allegations the basketball superstar was a ``major
womanizer'' whose contraction of the HIV virus ``was bound to happen,''
The Los Angeles Times reported Tuesday.
	The newspaper report said Dale Beard appeared on a radio talk show in
Owosso, Mich., Monday and objected to accusations leveled against the
newly retired Los Angeles Laker by former USC and Olympic basketball
star Pamela McGee.
	In a letter to the Times published Saturday, two days after Johnson
retired because he was carrying the virus that leads to AIDS, McGee said
she was not surprised by the revelation.
	``Knowing his flamboyant lifestyle, it was bound to happen sooner or
later,'' wrote McGee, who lives in Flint, Mich. ``Magic's closest
friends always knew him as a major player and womanizer. He has had one-
night stands with what he calls 'freaks' across America.
	``The reason he probably made it public is to warn the thousands of
women he has slept with.''
	Said Beard, a friend of Johnson's from Lansing, Mich., and best man
at his Sept. 14 wedding to Cookie Kelly, ``I don't know why she said
that, because she's not on the road with the Lakers,'' the Times
reported.
	``I don't know how she could possibly make that kind of statement,''
said Beard, who added he was speaking without his friend's knowledge. 
``It's like someone making a statement about something they can't see.''

Article 2598 of clari.sports.basketball:
From: clarinews@clarinet.com
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Bush eyes Johnson for AIDS post
Date: 12 Nov 91 17:54:46 GMT
Priority: major


	NEW YORK (UPI) -- Presient Bush hopes Magic Johnson will accept an
appointment to the National Commssion on Aids within the next few days,
White House Press Secretary Marlin Fitzwater said Tuesday.
	Fitzwater said administration officials have been in contact with
agents of the retired basketball star.
	``The president would like to have Magic on the AIDS commisison,''
Fitzwater said aboard Air Force One en route to New York. ``I think
Magic is being asked to do so many things by so many people he just
needs to sort it all out.''
	Fitzwater said the administration expects to hear from Johnson's
agent within the next couple of days.
	The press secretary said the former Los Angeles Lakers standout would
be ``an excellent member'' of the panel, adding Johnson has a ``very
important message that would be useful to this commission.''
	That message, Fitzwater said, is that ``everyone in the population is
susceptible (to AIDS). It is a matter of extreme importance that the
nation needs to be concerned about.''
	Johnson, 32, announced Thursday he has human immunodeficiency virus,
which causes AIDS, as a result of heterosexual activity. He retired from
basketball and now plans to wage a widespread campaign to promote safe
sex.
	The 15-member National Commission on AIDS was created to advise
Congress and the White House on the development of a national policy to
combat the epidemic. It includes members appointed by Congress and the
White House.
	Thomas Brandt, spokesman for the commission, said: ``Magic Johnson
would delight us as a member of the commission and certainly would be
valuable to our efforts, but it is a White House decision.''
	Johnson would fill the vacancy on the commission left by Belinda
Mason, who died in September and was the panel's only AIDS-afflicted
member.
	Johnson has been widely praised by AIDS activists and by members of
the AIDS panel for his upbeat outlook and his forthrightness about his
infection.

Article 2609 of clari.sports.basketball:
From: clarinews@clarinet.com
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Celtics star center addresses AIDS issue
Date: 13 Nov 91 14:43:41 GMT
Priority: regular


	BOSTON (UPI) -- Boston Celtics star center Robert Parish, the oldest
player in the NBA, said he is thankful he survived his sexually active
younger years without catching AIDS and is now advising younger players
to use condoms.
	Parish, in an interview published Wednesday in the Boston Herald,
said he recently took an AIDS test and is relieved he emerged AIDS-free
from a sexually actively lifestyle during his 15 years in pro
basketball.
	The 38-year-old Parish said he is also ``older and wiser'' now and is
happy he has slowed things down.
	``It (slowing down) couldn't have come at a better time with that
AIDS thing,'' he said. His comments came a week after Los Angeles Lakers
star Magic Johnson disclosed he is infected with the HIV virus that
leads to the deadly AIDS disease.
	``I'm not as (sexually) active as when I was younger, but it's still
available, if that's what you want to do,'' Parish said. ``It's still
out there, like when I was younger and feeling my oats, but I'm not as
adventurous as I used to be.''
	Parish said that people such as athletes, musicians, actors and
actresses ``have a lot of opportunity to be sexually active, if they
choose to be.''
	But he said he is now telling his younger teammates ``if you are
going to be sexually active, then don't make love without a Trojan.''
	He said what happened to Johnson will make people more cautious.
	``I've heard people say they'll slow down, though I haven't heard the
word 'stop' from anyone,'' he said.
	Parish also said he won't challenge Wilt Chamberlain's claim of
having had sex with 20,000 women.
	``He had a lot of opportunities to be with these people,'' he said. 
``And I know how available it was for me, and I wasn't really seeking
it. I could imagine if I was going after it.''
	``Athletes dont have to go after this,'' he said. ``It comes to them.
I could see Wilt with 20,000 women, without even trying hard.''
	Parish said that the compassion now being shown to Johnson will soon
end.
	``When all of this calms down, they'll start treating him like an
outcast. It will happen when he goes to shake someone's hand, or he
breathes on someone, and they back away. That's when he's going to get
it.''

    
    Believe it or not, I read where the only known claim of a transfer of
    the HIV virus during the course of a sporting event came in a rugby 
    match in England.  The veracity of the case is unconfirmed, of
    course...
    
    If true, just this one case would establish the odds of such a
    transfer as higher than I would have thought possible, and at the 
    very least makes the possibility something that should be carefully 
    considered.
    
    glenn
    

>    Instead we have Ray Flynn around here saying that condoms will
>    INCREASE the HIV infection rate.
 
    Doc...  Flynn never said that condoms will INCREASE the HIV infection
    rate.  He said, "I do favor condoms being made available to Boston 
    teen-agers in convenient locations outside the schools as part of the 
    effort to help teen-agers remain healthy....I believe that there is a 
    difference between availability throughout the neighborhoods and
    distribution within the schools....Distribution by school personnel, 
    in my opinion, can deliver a message which condones teen-age sex 
    at a time when we need to be discouraging it."  

    He also said, "An AIDS prevention program should speak to the issue of 
    sexual responsibility among teen-agers...The condom alone cannot
    protect a teen-ager from the variety of public health consequences, 
    medical and emotional, which accompany the often shaky self-esteem 
    which will always be a part of teen-age life."
    
    HTH.

       Magic's best man better have a talk with Magic. The SI coming out
    this week supposedly quotes Magic as confirming Ms. Mcgee's statements.
                                     Denny 

Is the AIDS virus transmitted only by direct contact?If an infected player had 
an open wound would their have to be an open wound on another player and direct 
blood to blood contact in order to get infected? Or could an open wound on an
infected player cause the disease to be transmitted other than direct blood to
blood contact?

Just trying to get informed before I make a judgement on whether he should play
or not.....


Metz
 

    re. Rugby and AIDS:  Haven't heard that one Glenn, but as with most
    rugby news here in the US, sources are limited.  In addition to the
    recommendation that a player who is bleeding cannot continue to play
    unless the bleedng is stopped, there was a recommendation to ban the
    "magic sponge".  It was not uncommon to see someone from the sidelines
    with a bucket of water and a sponge, sprint to an injured player and
    wipe him down.  This was the universal cure-all for cuts, bruises,
    muscle pulls, etc.  Not exactly a sanitary practice, and one that might
    explain the possiblity of a rugger contracting HIV during a match.

    Metz,

    the jury is still out on this, but the logic is that HIV is a virus
    that thrives in the blood.  If HIV blood from an infected person came
    in contact with an open wound of another person, they believe the virus
    can be spread.  Thus, you see people such as boxing refs and the like
    wearing surgical gloves...though I never really understood this...and
    it is also to "protect" them from contact with fighters' other body
    fluids that could carry the virus.

    Researchers have proven that the strain does not last long when exposed
    to the open air.  It dies within a matter of minutes.  In fact, there
    have been recent attempts to aerate infected patients' blood.  Results
    are still being studied.  The trouble here is that once the immune
    system is infected, it appears to be too late for such a cure attempt.

    Hope this helps.

    	--dan'l

    
    People do a lot of self-destructive things.  They drink alcohol, they
    smoke, they overeat, they drive too fast, they do drugs.  These habits
    and patterns may never be eliminated by all the education in the world,
    so how is a powerful natural urge like the human sex-drive going to be
    controlled by preaching abstinence?  It's been tried since Adam and Eve
    have been boinking with only those with the strongest of wills
    curtailing their activities.
    
    Safe-sex education is the way to go.
    
    Now eating is certainly another human drive, but there are right ways
    and wrong ways to prepare food that either promote health and
    well-being, or lead to disease.  They've never controlled this natural
    urge, but we've certainly learned and adapted our ways for our own
    good, haven't we?
    
    Dick
    

    Re: .162
    
    Alison, I 100% agree with you!  You can't beat a voice of experience,
    and it would be nice if teens could be more understanding of what we
    have to offer them.  
    
    Sadly, some are just destined to learn things in life the hard way.
    
    Re: excellent discussion
    
    It's funny how this conference approaches all topics in this same
    manner except for one topic.
    
    Mike

 Ok we've all been patting ourselves on the back today about our supposed
 education and information on this subject. How many people can truthfully
 raise their hand and say that they knew all of the same information that
 dan-l just provided?

 I didn't. I knew about the thriving in the blood but not the open air
 or possible blood  cleansing (I think) that he was talking about. 

 mike

Re:          <<< Note 151.156 by TNPUBS::NAZZARO "I could eat a Buick" >>>

>>    My oldest child is a 13 year old boy in 8th greade.  I asked him
>>    over the weekend if his school had ever given him any literature
>>    or information about aids.  The answer:  no.  In fact, there is not
>>    even a full-time nurse at his school any longer, due to budget cuts.

If your son looks like you, Nazz, you've got nothing to worry about.  There's
no better AIDS prevention than ugliness.

j.

    I did, and most AIDS' education explains that fact from the top. The
    AIDS virus dies within 5 minutes of exposure to open air - at most.
    Hence there is little chance of catching it from a handshake, light
    kiss etc ...
    
    Pity that those yokels in Ryan White's hometown didn't listen well
    enough .... :-(

 In addition to the information that Dan'l provided, I believe I have also
 read that saliva is a hostile environment for the AIDS virus as well as
 the open air.
 
 I believe that is why there are no recorded cases of contracting the virus
 through kissing or other oral contacts.   However, to the best of my
 recall, medical science is still somewhat stumped on exactly why the virus
 doesn't live in saliva.   And, of course, if they knew why, they might
 have a possible avenue to pursue for a cure or a control.
 
 This is one reason why the old "exchange of bodily fluids" explanation
 falls a bit flat.   It's only some fluids, not all ... apparently.
 
 Bob Hunt

    I knew open air was a quick kill for the virus.  I didn't know about
    the "aerate blood" treatment experiments.
    
    Bob Hunt - I've got some doubts about the "kissing is ok behavior"
    thing, and want more info.  The difficulty is that even if saliva is
    not a good vector for transmission, there is a lot of microscopic blood
    in the mouth at any time.  I've "banged teeth" during passionate 
    encounters hard enough to taste salt [:-0], and can believe that would 
    cause an avenue for HIV transmission.  Not as bad as other, more risky
    behaviors - but open-mouth kissing is listed as among the non-risk-free
    behaviors :-(.
    
    A&W

    Re: .193
    
    but Nazz has been on TV more than any of us!

We played against Union of the Met Union last May.  They had a guy
who was in recently from the islands, and he ended up biting one of
our guys.

Their captain wasn't interested when we said we wanted the guy tested
or anything...

Like Mac said, you stand a worse chance in rugby than hoops....

    I think it was game #6 of the last Celtics-Lakers championship 
    series. The score was close and it was late in the game. Who 
    broke it? You guessed it. Magic came dancing across the lanes
    over 2 or 3 Celtics with a running baby hook. The series went
    to another game but it ended right then.
    
    BoB 

    	Bob it was game four (Lakers led series 2-1) and Magic made
    that babyhook over Parish, McHale and Bird (and one upped Bird who
    I believe sank a three at the other end just prior) to win the game
    for the Lakers.  The Celtics won game 5 because of the HomeCourtDisadvantage
    in the Finals but the Lakers won game 6.
    
    				/Don

    My fondest memories of him are from game 2 of the '84 finals and all
    games of the '83 finals.
    
    Mike

The pass that Henderson stole?  Worthy was the one who threw that one
away.

Mike

    [press release date 12-Nov-1991]
    
    Freddie Mercury, of the rock group Queen, is very sick with "double 
    pneumonia" (whatever THAT is) as a result of HIV disease (read AIDS).  
    The future for the band does not look too great at this point due to 
    Mercury's health.

    RE: .205
    
    I had heard last week that he was seriously ill...with AIDS.  (Yes, the
    word AIDS was used.)
    
    Jo

Don't know where you heard that.  Yesterday, Magic was evaluated
the the docs, and they said he was in fine shape with no symptoms
of AIDS.

Laker_Ken

last should read "by the docs"

    Ken, Jo was referring to Freddie Mercury, not Magic Johnson.  Her reply
    was in reponse to Mike Heiser's reply in .205.

    Heard the same about Freddie....  Wouldn't doubt it,  he looked pretty
    bad lasted(tm) time I saw him on T.V..  I thought it was drugs but I 
    guess I was wrong.
    
    Big GamE

Re. .210 -- got it.

Something still isn't right here ...

Magic Johnson has been examined by HIV specialists and they say he shows no 
symptoms of AIDS yet.   They won't release his T-cell helper count which 
gives an indication of the extent of the virus yet they also say he's 
started his AZT medication.

Something's not right ...  What am I missing ???   If he's taking AZT 
now, is he farther along than we're being led to believe ???

Bob Hunt

Not necessarily.  From what I've read, some docs seem to think that
the sooner you start with AZT, the better chance you have of delaying
the onset of AIDS.  Therefore, the medical evaluation announced
yesterday is not necessarily inconsistent with the announcement that
he has started with AZT.

    AZT can be taken at anytime.  You don't have to be in bad shape.
    AZT helps build the T-Cell count in the body which helps to prevent
    infections etc.....  You do however have to be fairly well off to 
    afford the medication....  Approx $300 per month !  I think thats a
    real crime......
    
    Big Game

    I think it's kind of suspicious that they woun't release his T cell
    count. I would think total public disclosure would help Magic' role
    model role.
    
    Dennis
    

                                  
    I guess when Magic's dead we'd all better find out about it immediately
    so there'll be no hint of suspicious goings-on, right?
    
    Lighten up with the conspiracy theories, guys.  What does it really
    matter what his T-cell count is?  Is it going to change anything?
    In all probability the testing they're doing takes some time and
    there's no reason to go rushing to the media with potentially false
    reports each and every week.  No doubt this will be a long, drawn-out
    process.  After a while, it'll become boring hearing about it...
    
    glenn
    

>    process.  After a while, it'll become boring hearing about it...
    
    I think it's there already.  The media overexposure made it so...

    Stopped at the market last night.  Every tabloid is using Magic to sell
    their crap (except the ever-consistent Weekly World News that has the
    story of a woman with an 11-inch waistline).
    
    Most of them also feature the "Porn Star Who Gave Magic AIDS."  Is that
    true?  Seemed amazingly consistent, even for the tabloids.
    
    	--dan'l

    re .217
    
    Thanks Glenn, things are starting to get flaky. As for the tabloids,
    hell they're probably P.O.ed that Magic undercut their business with
    his swift public disclosure ...

    FYI... heard on the news today... Freddy Mercury is dead... died last
    night...

"Another one bites the dust!" 


RIP Freddy, I have enjoyed your music.


Steve

    Magic explained his position on "safe sex" during an interview from his
    home in Lansing, MI yesterday.  He said you can't get safer than
    abstinence, but if you aren't going to abstain, at least be safe.

    methinks Mag felt a bit 'o presshure from 'dem religous types...
    
    

    
     Pretty scary when one can't state his own opinion with out being
    thrashed by the "Moral Minority".  Folks like Farwell and his 
    gang should be exposed for what they really are,  Frauds, Phonies
    and extortionists.
    
    Big Game

    While the "Moral Majority" may be the main thrashers, I'd be willing to
    bet that Mrs. Magic has had some private comments that may have had
    some influence on his statement.
    
    lEe

    
     What do ya mean lEe....  You actually think she would curtail what
    magic says ??  for what reason...
    
    Big Game

Forget the religious zealots ... what Magic said is 100% truth.   

In sexual terms, outside of a completely monagomous and virus-free sexual 
relationship, abstinence is the only foolproof method of avoiding the virus.

However, abstinence is not a realistic option for *everyone* so if you are 
going to pursue sexual activity outside a committed monagomous 
relationship, then do so with a condom.   Simple message stated simply.

There's nothing wrong that I can see with the religious right preaching 
abstinence outside of commitment as their preferred behavior.   Where the 
thumpers over-stretch their bounds is insisting that those who don't are 
somehow evil and bound for eternal damnation and all that hoo-hah ...

You folks would have a hard time reading the "Letters To The Editor" that 
have been flowing to the Charlotte Observer since Magic's disclosure.   
*Extreme* right-wing fire-eating thumpists ... Magic will burn in hell, Sex 
is evil, Condoms are the devil's playtoys, and on and on and on ...   
Depressing as hell ...

Bob Hunt 

    Jack, I'd guess that the Missus wasn't exactly thrilled about his
    exploits before his marriage with all those women, especially now that
    her husband has been confirmed as having a virus which can lead to an
    early death, and that she cannot have a carefree attitude about having
    sex with him for the rest of their time together.  Also, she and her
    baby probably aren't 100% certain to NOT have the virus.  Forget the
    moral issue and just look at the medical side of it for her.
    
    Now, wouldn't it make sense that she'd have carried on like crazy that
    he brought this on them because of his lifestyle?  Condom's aren't
    totally safe, nothing is except abstinance.
    
    lEe

     Gotcha LEe....  Just wasn't sure what it was you were getting at.
    Never really thought much about her being upset with his past life.
    After all she had to have known about it don't you think.  Hell,
    she was probably part of it as far as that goes.
    
    re:.228
    
     Pretty sad state of affairs down south from the sound of you note.
    The Thumpist(tm) are everywhere...  It's really a shame to see 
    supposedly well educated, smart people get caught up the the right
    wing religous BS.  That kind of mis-informed overeaction to a 
    life threatening situtation is bad bad news.
    
    
    Big Game

    Even Matt Millen said that athletes could stand a little morality!
    
    Abstinence is an ideal that nobody even considers, but maybe its time
    we start.  Especially when Magic is dealing with youngsters.
    
    And forget religion, the laws of sowing and reaping are universal.

    No, Mike, I'm not going to consider abstinence if I'm ever lucky enough
    to get involved in a committed relationship again.  What I will do is
    this:
    
    1.  Get tested and insist my partner gets tested
    2.  Wear a condom
    3.  Continue regular testing for at least 6 months
    4.  If both still negative, then and only then is condom-less sex
        reasonably safe.  At that point, if we're both still clean and if
        both have been monogamous, will I even consider going without.
    
    Abstinence is not and will not be an option for me.  I don't feel
    illegal, immoral or unethical for not being chaste.  I won't let anyone
    tell me I should be for any reason (and I'm not saying you are) but I
    won't be stupid about it either.
    
    John

You don't have to in bible thumping land to have religious extremists. We get
letters to the editor printed every day in here saying that handingout condoms
to kids is condoning sex and promoting promiscuity.

While abstinence is the only sure fire way to avoid getting the disease I'm not
niave enough to think that by not giving kids condoms that they will choose 
abstinence. 

Too bad we don't ahve a Sherman and Peabody way back machine to bring those
parents back to their youth. I think many have actually forgotten what it feels
like to be 17 or 18 and have sexual urges. Maybe if they could remember their
feelings they would deal with reality now instead of the fantasy of abstinence
for everybody.....


Metz

    Re: last 2
    
    
     Well Said !!   Applause Applause !!
    
    
    Big Game

    Mewtz, et al -
    
    The sad thing is that folks actually believe that be simply forbidding
    access to thinks like condoms, sex education, etc., then they will stop
    people from having sex.  Abstinence, chastity, whatever - is a personal
    choice - just as having sexual relations is.   Being educated about the
    implications, the safe methods - the debunking of myths, the option of
    abstinence - these are what kids need to be told.  Sexual ignorance
    knows no racial, economic or religious barriers.  
    
    JD

    Sort of like a sex version of "Reefer Madness"...  
    
    An unrealistic approach kills a chance of real credibility, trust, and
    and allowing the kids to form an educated opinion.
    
    thump.
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    I suppose the possibility that Magic stated what he actually believed
    is totally out of the question.

    RE: .237
    
    He may feel that way now, but Magic didn't make himself out to be
    Kid_Abstainace pre-marriage, or pre-HIV.
    
    To be honest, it didn't seem to me that the chaste option was
    considered until he started getting 'thumped'.
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    
     Kawk !!  I'm still in my teenage sexually active period and I haven't
    struch out in months....  ;^)
    
    Big Game

    About a month, we caught wind of a bill that the local liberals were
    trying to get thru state legislation.  This bill called for AIDS
    education for grades K-12.  The liberals were quickly hammered down and
    most of them probably won't be re-elected now.
    
    I have one in K, and one in 1st.  There's no way that age group is
    ready to be exposed to that garbage.
    
    It's not a popular option, but abstinence shouldn't be ignored as an
    option.  I've done volunteer work in Crisis Pregnancy Centers and
    nobody can convince me that teenage sex does more good than harm.
    
    The saddest part is that people still don't have a clue, given today's
    situation.  This virus isn't going to disappear over night.  The
    awareness and caution level of adults have to be raised, but too many
    remain ignorant and claim that it will never happen to them.  As I said
    before, the laws of sowing and reaping are universal (i.e., what goes
    around, comes around).  Play with fire, you'll get burned...
    
    Mike

>     Kawk !!  I'm still in my teenage sexually active period and I haven't
>    struch out in months....  ;^)
 
    Big Game, that's cause no one's pitchin' to ya!  But you can go ahead
    and hit pop ups all you want. ;-)
    
>    I have one in K, and one in 1st.  There's no way that age group is
>    ready to be exposed to that garbage.
    
    Mike, I agree that may be too young, but do you really think that sex
    education and human sexuality is "garbage?"  I'd hate to hear your term
    for porn.
    
    	--dan'l
    

-    I have one in K, and one in 1st.  There's no way that age group is
-    ready to be exposed to that garbage.

That's one man's opinion.   At this point, I would tell my children just 
about anything they needed to know and I'd support the schools in 
partnering with me in doing it. 
   
-    It's not a popular option, but abstinence shouldn't be ignored as an
-    option.  I've done volunteer work in Crisis Pregnancy Centers and
-    nobody can convince me that teenage sex does more good than harm.
 
Abstinence is *NOT* being ignored.   Just about every person who thinks 
with any degree of clarity at all on this issue understands that if you 
keep it in your pocket, you won't get infected.    It is when this belief 
is *forced* on people is when resentments arise.

I agree with you that very very little good comes out teen sex and teen 
pregnancies but forcing them to believe that does little to reduce the 
problem.
   
-    The saddest part is that people still don't have a clue, given today's
-    situation.  This virus isn't going to disappear over night.  The
-    awareness and caution level of adults have to be raised, but too many
-    remain ignorant and claim that it will never happen to them.  As I said
-    before, the laws of sowing and reaping are universal (i.e., what goes
-    around, comes around).  Play with fire, you'll get burned...

Mike, with all due respect, you can't blast AIDS education for the young 
in one breath and then dump on the clueless with the next.   You're right, 
we have to raise the awareness and caution levels ... starting right 
*NOW*.  If they're old enough to learn to read, they're old enough to learn 
how to stay alive.   I teach my children not to stick their fingers into 
electrical outlets ... I'm sure as hell gonna teach 'em not to take chances 
with sex, too.

Bob Hunt

    
>    It's not a popular option, but abstinence shouldn't be ignored as an
>    option.  I've done volunteer work in Crisis Pregnancy Centers and
>    nobody can convince me that teenage sex does more good than harm.
     
    I don't think anyone has denied this.  The question is how many
    kids are listening and heeding the abstinence message.  Obviously,
    the kids you've been talking to didn't.  It isn't an automatic.
    Hell, a lot of kids don't have parents at all, both literally and 
    figuratively speaking (a very large assumption that's been 
    continually made in here), much less any moral code that's supposed
    to be passed down from the parents.  These kids damn well better be 
    taught something, somewhere.  Bounce sex education out of the schools 
    and they're taught *nothing*, neither the abstinence or the safe
    sex options...
    
    glenn
    

    
     I can't beleive that you would not want you children to learn of the
    way they can protect themselves from a deadly virus at the ealriest 
    possible moment.  I don't have children so I can't speak from
    experience but I do know that I teach my dogs at the earliest stages
    of their lives to stay out of the street and come when their called.
    Afterall, for a dog, that too is a matter of survival.  I think the
    healthiest kid that I know are the ones with parents that share
    everything the kid wants to know in a truthful and thoughtful way.
    Many of my friends are "Married With Children".  The ones that are
    honest with their kids seem to have the best kids and the smartest.
    
    Big Game

    And of course, Mike - you have to use a label to lump the folks you
    opposed as 'liberal'.  I'll say it again - until folks - especially
    those with 'open' minds stop lumping folks into categories (many times
    hate categories), we'll never go anywhere.  But our Prez and Ronny sure
    know/knew how to do it.  
    
    Since there are minute chances of contracting the virus other than
    sexually - all avenues should be covered.  To me - I agree, K and 1st
    grade seems young - but that's because I superimpose myself at the age
    of 5 or 6 - and the world has changed since then - big time.
    
    JD

    Well I guess we're in violent agreement on some issues.  I believe in
    education too, but not to 6 year olds.  
    
    The "experts" can't seem to agree either on the "right" age to start
    educating.  I have a maturity level in mind for my kids, and it will be 
    my decision to teach them when I think they're ready.
    
    Based on how I've brought them up so far, I don't suspect a problem.
    They're very honest and respectful thus far.  Even at their tender age,
    they strive to do the right thing and we're proud of them.
    
    Mike

    Mike -
    
    My wife and I have both worked at crisis centers - my wife much more
    than me.  A vast majority of those pregnant were unbelievably ignorant
    of sexual relations.  They didn't have a clue about birth control -
    they believed old wive's tails and street heresay - and didn't know
    what to do.  It was ignorance - not education - that led to it.  Don't
    know how many were afraid as hell to let their parents know - afraid
    they'd get the living crap beat out of them.  
    
    JD

    JD, what you say is true, but should ignorance be a justification for 
    teenage relations?  Quite a few of these teens had sex education in
    high school, but what did it buy them?
    
    Even adults fall for the myths.  Have you ever heard the one about
    nursing mothers not being able to get pregnant?  I know 2 couples that
    will testify that's false.
    
    Mike

Mike,

I suspect you're right in that there is probably more agreement in here 
than meets the eye.   Perhaps it would help a bit if I clarify something I 
said earlier ...

You are right that 5 and 6 year olds aren't ready for a lot of minute 
detail about sex, AIDS, pregnancy and so on ... but they're not ready for 
algebra, physics, or Shakespeare yet, either.

There is no doubt in my mind that my children have already discovered their 
little bodies and have already formed and voiced some awfully delicate 
questions ... and I feel they deserve answers to those questions *NOW*.   
Not by using clinical or biological terms that mean nothing to them but in 
terms that they can understand and relate to.

They want to know what "love" is and how did we meet and who were our moms 
and dads and a zillion other little painfully innocent questions ... and I 
intend to give them the painfully innocent answers.

Bob Hunt   

    I have some knowledge of exactly what the AIDS education message is for
    kindergarten, 1st and 2nd graders.  At those ages the messages are not
    about sex.  What is taught at those ages is:
    	- Don't pick up any needles that you see on the street.
    	- If someone is bleeding, use a sponge or a cloth to stop it, get
    an adult, don't touch their blood.
    	- Basic hygiene around cleaning up cuts and scrapes safely, so that
    you don't get blood on other people.
    
    Basically - the kind of stuff that athletic trainers ought to be
    paying more attention to for not having open wounds and blood between
    different individuals getting in contact with each other.
    
    Sometime around 3rd or 4th grade, they get into discussions that
    include what sexual contact is, how to avoid it (abstinence education),
    and the like.  The messages about how to choose when you are ready for
    sexual relations, and how to protect yourself if you choose to do that,
    start in junior high.  Those messages also include lots of teaching
    around how it is *good* to be able to say no, and that someone who
    pressures you doesn't really care about you.  Based on the pregnancy 
    rates and first menarche ages for girls (averaging around 12 in the US 
    currently, I think, and with some girls starting in 4th grade) that
    timing doesn't seem out of line to me.
    
    If a K-12 AIDS cirriculum is proposed in your town, please do yourself
    the favor of finding out what is taught in each age group before
    assuming that it is teaching "sex" at the outset.  Contact the school
    board if you can't figure out where else to start.
    
    
    Final point.  Having information which is clear and complete is the
    best preventive measure available for keeping teens from experimenting. 
    If they feel that they already know the "real scoop", they won't be as
    tempted to find out what's been kept from them.  The lure of the
    unknown is very real, and an awful lot of kids are willing to trade sex
    for intimacy.  (Heck - as an *adult* I've tried that.  Didn't feel good
    at all, at all.  So I told my son about *that*, too.)
    
    A&W

    Mike -
    
    No ignorance is not justification for teens having sexual relations. 
    It's a damn shame that so many have to so ignorant.  A little bit of
    knowledge might stop a certain percentage from making that big mistake
    that leads to pregnancy, disease, or worse.  
    
    And the sex education has to straight forward.  The stuff they taught
    in my high school - which was watered down after attacks from different
    special interest groups, told us basically nothing.   It was a joke.   
    
    JD

-    I have one in K, and one in 1st.  There's no way that age group is
-    ready to be exposed to that garbage.
    
    I remember the teen years.  My attitute got to the point where anything
    (moral issue) my parents or teachers said had to be wrong.  Why? 
    Because they were parent and teachers.  So therefore they had to be
    wrong.  Nod your head, say yes, and go your own way anyway.  Eventually
    I grew out of it, but not before doing some dumb things.
    
    I am sure that more than a few of today's teens have the same attitude. 
    To educate those individuals you need to educate them BEFORE they stop
    listening to authority figures.
    
    On the other hand, the schools are not a substitue for parent's
    education of their children.  Merely a suppliment.  And yes, sometimes
    groups try to push through questionable laws about education.
    
    Scott

    Re: my 1st grade daughter
    
    At Karissa's school, Friday is known as "Flip Day".  This is where the
    boys all go around and flip up the girl's skirts.  Every Thursday, the
    teachers have to warn the girls about it.  We as parents have to make
    sure all the shorts and pants are clean for Friday.  If they can't
    control this on the school grounds, how do they control them after they
    have a "working knowledge"?
    
    Of course, having her Dad's sense of humor, one Friday she wore a pant
    suit that had a skirt design sown into the pants.  She got the last
    laugh on that one ;-)
    
    Mike

    Well put A&W
    
    Big Game

Karissa...I like that name Mike...Does it mean anything? 


Metz

    Ninja, I understand how you feel about abstinance in it's most
    strictest form.  But, I take it any other way, too.  That is, in NOT
    trying to bag every woman that is available.  When one reads about
    Chamberlain's claim of 20,000 (or whatever number he claimed), and
    Magic's mention of 1,000 women, that seems to almost turn it into a
    game whereby the guy with the largest total is the winner.  And I've
    known guys with that mentality.
    
    Regarding sex education, I don't have an ideal age to begin.  All I
    know is that, if we were to assure that the age of 10 is the time, then
    we must understand that every year thousands and thousands of 9
    year-olds turn 10.  Every year.  Actually, it's every day!  My point is
    that we sometimes think that if we set a definitive time or age or
    class level (school class level), everything will be okay for a year. 
    It isn't okay, it will never be okay.  It MUST be a continuing
    operation.  
    
    Has it worked with drugs?  I don't know for sure, but perhaps we should
    look at the results of that effort to get some idea if it's going to
    work with AIDS.
    
    More importantly, this education CANNOT be left up to the schools,
    although I am sure that many, many kids will not receive any
    factual information outside of the classroom.  For them, this is the
    only method.  But for the majority of kids who DO have loving and
    caring parents, it's GOT to be done at home as well as in school.
    
    

    People, are we forgetting that AIDS can be transmitted other ways
    other than sex....
    
    REK

I know one thing...

If I have to go to the hospital for an operation, I'll stockpile
my own blood before hand....  I guess that's quite common these days...


'Saw

    Hawk, my point was that most everyone is focused on sex where as the
    real issue is how do we (world) defeat the HIV virus.  I did read
    Alison's reply but it seem to get lost in the conversation...
    
    REK
    
    Like my old personal_name.....
    
    Fight aids, not people with aids...

 Interesting little side note ...
 
 The school board in Charleston, South Carolina, recently announced that
 they were *lowering* the age where state-mandated sex education should be
 taught.   State law says that the program must be started no later than
 6th grade.   Charleston is now going to begin instruction in the 4th
 grade instead ...
 
 Why ???
 
 Because three 10-year old Charleston school girls are pregnant ...
 
 Bob Hunt

>Karissa...I like that name Mike...Does it mean anything? 
    
    I'm not sure, but it's very unique/rare.  My wife got the idea from a
    childhood friend that had the name.

>    fact that you feel the need to make sure that your child has clean
>    undergarments on friday's.  However, I'm also confused- on one hand, it
    
    No I said pants, not undergarments.  The boys never get that far on my
    girls.  It's a pain because my girls like to wear dresses once in a
    while.  They *HAVE* to wear pants on that day and we have to make sure
    everything is clean because of that.  It's extra work for everyone
    involved.  Nobody likes it when they *HAVE* to do something.
    
>    go along with it (ie. tricked them one day with pant-suit with skirt
>    sewed on).  Regardless, if you really feel it's a problem, why are you
    
    No that was her idea and I didn't help her get dressed that day.
    
>    not going to the princpal/school board?  Why do you tolerate this, and
>    especially, why do you seemingly participate?
    
    Hawk, that's good advice and I just may do that.  Especially since it
    seems they have ignored the situation at that level.  I'm sure I can
    get other parents involved too.
    
    Thanks for the tip,
    Mike

Article: 6302
From: IDCLS@ASUACAD.BITNET
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: PLAYERS HAVEN'T LEARNED FROM MJ
Date: 26 Nov 91 02:02:47 GMT
Organization: Arizona State University
 
I read an article in the Gazette on Sunday that NBA players have not learned
from Magic's tradegy.  According to Dr. Allen Schreiber, a team physician for
the Nuggets, most of his treatment for players outside of flus and respiratory
infections, is from venereal diseases (a very prevalent problem).  The good Dr.
states that since Magic's announcement over 2 weeks ago, there is no indication
that the players' sexual habits are changing.  And he wasn't very optimistic
with conversations that he has had with other team physicians.  He states, "if
the behavioral pattern on the part of professional athletes doesn't change
-- with many of the players seeing the same women, groupies ifyou will -- there
certainly is the potential for (AIDS virus infection) to reach frightening
proportions."
 
Also, someone was asking about whether or not Magic was purchasing season
tickets for the Clippers.  Seems that might be true.  Magic's agent, Lon
Rosen, has been inquiring about season tickets with "extra leg space and
courtside.
 
On another note, Magic's dream of owning a team has been accelerated in light
of his untimely retirement from the league.  Magic loves the Lakers, but
Mr. Buss has made it known that he would like the Lakers to stay "in the family
" and although he considers Magic one of his children (ha!), he does not view
him in "his line of inheritance."  Magic has talked with David Stern about
other teams for sale (Spurs, Rockets, Pacers and the Kings are on the market)
and has recently found out that the Supersonics and the Nuggets could also be
had for the right price.
 
Finally, although the Lakers hit the road against Orlando tomorrow night (TNT
will carry the game), and many fans are saying that this will end the Lakers
winning (6 or 7 games) streak, the Lakers are currently 1/2 game behind GS in
their division, winning 70% of the games.  At this point, seems like only
Chicago (9-2), Houston (8-2) and GS (8-3) have better records than the Lakers
at this point (some teams have matching records however).
 
For those of you who are Lakers' fans, don't jump ship.  Stick with the team,
who knows, some dreams are answered!  GO LAKERS!!!!!

    Is Magic planning to spend cash for his share of the team purchase?
    
    If not, I think it would be difficult to find long-term financing for
    someone with his medical problem.
    
    lEe

    Heart disease is still the number 1 killer in the US despite all of the
    attempts at educting people about the risky behaviours that cause heart
    attacks.

    As regards the present situation with the players, perhaps Magic's most
    powerful means of getting to the players would be to meet with them
    privately.  Lay it out, no outsiders allowed.
    
    To reach kids, we need more spokespersons besides Magic.  Perhaps his
    talking to each player would result in more players talking to kids.
    
    Lee

    <set mode : Synicism (sp?) on>
    
    Yeah right... the NBA's going to cancel their schedule so Magic
    can give them a lecture & explain how he got it????
    
    not in my lifetime.......
    
    k
    
    <set mode: semi-normal)
    

    Kev, what's your problem with this?  
    
    Where did I say the schedule would be modified?
    
    Magic could fairly easily travel around the coast and visit with both
    visiting and home teams until he's met with all.  No need to make any
    changes to any scheduled game.  He's not in a wheelchair or bedridden.
    If need be, he could travel to wherever necessary to meet with those
    teams he couldn't contact on the West Coast.
    
    Why does this seem so improbable to you?
    
    lEe

    
    	Intersting article Mike.  Our own Ralph Routen (Colorado Springs
    	Gazette Telegraph Sports Editor) wrote an article which is in
    	line with the one you posted.
    	
    	He documented a Bronco road trip to Minnesota where a group
    	of [obviously prostitutes; his words] got on the same elevator
    	as his group.  They each had pieces of paper with Bronco room
    	numbers on them.  He said this is the norm for pro sports team
    	road trips and he went on to predict more "Magic Johnson stories".
    
    	Claybone

    These guys really aren't smart, are they ??  I can't beleive that
    anyone would take such a big risk with their life when they have
    the world by the tail like most sports stars do.  Amazing !!
    
    Big Game

    lEe,
    
    I guess I was just having a impulsive reaction to my interpretation
    of your suggestion and visualized all the NBA'ers in a room at one 
    time.  Hadn't thought about Magic doing the road trip thang.
    
    When I read your suggestion about 'splaining everything, the
    cynic in me lept out, probably because almost every paper I've
    read since the announcement had/has a blurb about the pro's and their
    wimmin when on the road & I find it hard to believe that (today)
    the athletes can't imagine how Magic got infected.  Maybe they
    didn't know 3 months ago but they sure should know now.
    
    
    T'wasn't meant as an attack, just a cynical POV.
    
    Kev
    

    Boy Magic Johnson really makes me sick.  No, not the outragerous
    pun one cain take from a guy naming his Johnson magic, but the
    self-serving backtracking he'll take tonight in his interview with
    Connie Dung.  Basically, he sez he misspoke when he said he tried
    to accomodate all women who wanted him.  Ok so far.  But then he 
    sez that he was only joking and would never have done such a thing
    cuz that would be disrespectful to women.
    
    Huh?  How is having sex with a woman who wants it with you showing
    disrespect?
    
    And worse, Magic takes the tack we've come to expect on a routine
    basis from all our public figures in trouble.  He sez that the only
    safe sex is total abstinence, which he understands now that he has
    found Jesus.  E-Z for this Magic Johnson to say now that he's married
    after plowing through hundreds or thousands of girls and quite possibly
    quite a few boys to boot.
    
    Magic, why don't you just shut up and take your fate like a main. 
    You've entered the wierd world of American media-based public discourse
    and you're slinging the same hackneyed cliched udder bull that the rest
    have been for a decade now.  You're no leader.  You're a phony.
    
    MrT

                                                        
>    Huh?  How is having sex with a woman who wants it with you showing
>    disrespect?
     
    Gee, I dunno, MrT.  Maybe Magic was just being metaphorical and
    was taken completely out of context and therefore victimized by Ms. 
    Chung.  Nah, that kind of thing never happens...
    
    Hawk, I can agree with you that there's nothing "heroic" about Magic's
    predicament, but if the writer in question is passing judgement based
    on Magic's relationship with his son then he's engaging in nothing 
    more than gutter journalism, in my opinion.  I've heard Magic talk 
    about his son, spending time with him, bringing him to games, having
    him stay with him in the summer, meeting his friends, etc., so if 
    he's guilty of leaving his son "fatherless" then so are millions of 
    other divorcees and unmarried parents in this country.  That piece 
    sounds like a cheap shot to me...
    
    glenn
    

    Hawk -
    
    Agree with yo somewhat - but who is the 'right' person to lecture kids? 
    Remember, not all kids have nice secure families - especially inner
    city and lower income kids.
    
    I mean, who are the right folks?  David Duke?  George Bush?  Jerry
    Falwell?  Jim Bakker?  Ted Kennedy?  Clarance Thomas?  Charles Manson?
    
    I don't buy the Magic hero-worship stuff either - but if his message
    can get through to one kid - then its a good thing.  
    
    On the book deal - I believe he's doing an update to his autobiography.
    
    People have been dying from AIDS for a decade now - and some factions
    in this country still want to take the ostrich approach.
    
    Personally, I don't read or listen to anymore of the Magic-mania - I'm
    not watching the COnnie Chung interview tonight, so I'll miss his words
    of wisdom.  
    
    JD

    I agree....anyone who has ever had a marriage or relationship fail
    should not be allowed to be a role model.  Only those with NO faults
    should be looked up to....after all, we're more than human!!
    
    :^(,
    
    Nelly 

I'll be a ROLE MODEL!

I even promise not to sweat!


8^)

    That's right Nelly - folks should act the way they are supposed to in
    this land of the free, you know, the stuff in that thang called teh
    constitution and the Bill of Rights;
    
    You know:  
    
    Freedom of Speech - but only if you say what I wanna hear.
    
    Freedom of Religion - but only if it's one of them their
    white-anglo-saxon religions - none of them other ones, ya here
    
    Freedom of Expression - but only if it fits MY feelings of expression..
    
    Everyone is welcome here in the home of the brave (no, not Indian-type
    Braves) and the land of the free (well, sort of...) except outspoken
    minority types, non-hetero sexuals, Haitians...
    
    ALl men are created equal here - well, I won't color my remarks nay
    further....
    
    JD

    Furthermore, the government did its best the other day to dash a lot of
    what Magic's predicament brought to the forefront in the past few
    months...that AIDS is not just a homosexual disease.

    A judge ruled that the military could continue to not allow homosexuals
    in its ranks and cited his main reason being that the AIDS virus is
    still too far out of control to change the policy.

    Such homophobic rhetoric pains me.  This will go to the Supreme Court
    next, I believe, but I don't see much hope there either...not with the
    boobs Reagan and Bush pushed in there.

    	--dan'l

    
     I'm sorry,  and I hope that I do not offend anyone but I feel the
    governments policy on gays in the military is a policy that right
    on track.  In a battle situation I would think you would want to 
    introduce the least possible amout of friction between your troops.
    
    
    Big Game

    
>    I'm sorry,  and I hope that I do not offend anyone but I feel the
>    governments policy on gays in the military is a policy that right
>    on track.  In a battle situation I would think you would want to 
>    introduce the least possible amout of friction between your troops.
     
    I might agree, but the government isn't saying this.  The government
    has had a ban against homosexuals in the military since long before
    anyone knew what AIDS was, but now they're using AIDS to justify
    their policy.  Another question is even if we accept the government's
    premise that AIDS is a homosexual disease to justify them bouncing
    a few affirmed homosexuals, exactly how do they come to the conclusion 
    that the virus poses the threat of spreading like wildfire through 
    the troops?  Since it's supposedly a homosexual disease, how are
    all the straight-laced guys who are left at risk?
    
    glenn
    

Hey 'Saw! What kind of Rolls are you modeling? Bulky? Onion?
Or maybe a Hard Roll! HAHA!

Steve

    Hawk -
    
    I'm pretty sure one of the books is going to be an update to his
    autobiography.  I guess he has two out already - one all about him the
    person, the other a basketball autobiography..
    
    JD

  great p-name JD..tell him to give it back....

  

>    I'm sorry,  and I hope that I do not offend anyone but I feel the
>    governments policy on gays in the military is a policy that right
>    on track.  In a battle situation I would think you would want to 
>    introduce the least possible amout of friction between your troops.
    
    What kind of friction do homosexuals cause?  This is the kind of
    Helmsish attitude that pervades the closed minds of the world into
    thinking that homosexuals are sex-crazed perverts.  Their sex drives
    are no more hightened than anyone elses.  These men and women want to
    be in the military to server their country, not to pick up dates!
    
    	--dan'l
    

    US Military policy has nothing to do wth Sports.  If you wish to
    discuss it further, please take it to SOAPBOX.

>               -< An open mind can still be opened some more... >-
    
    

     I didn't mean to sound as if I am Homophobic...  thats far from the 
    truth.  All I ment by what I said was that Anything that might be cause
    for clashes in a military environment is probably best avoided.  Again,
    sorry if I offended anyone.
    
    Nuff said...
    
    BG

    Hawk, they just liked your Sarge Slaughter physique!
    
    OK, now to bring the analogy back to sports.  Magic Johnson was
    heterosexual.  He caught AIDS.  You don't see any major league sports
    using this as an excuse for witch hunting out the homosexuals in the
    league and banning them for fear of them spreading the virus.
    
    There are women in the military.  They might have AIDS or catch it from
    a male soldier with AIDS.  Yet they are allowed in.  Did the military
    not hear a word that was spoken from Magic Johnson's press conference
    onward?  Did everyone's conscience get raised except for the DC bozos?
    
    	--dan'l

    
    RE BG, Hawk:
    
    The problem I havew with your statements is that is exactly the same
    attitude that prevented minorities from entering the armed forces until we
    had all minority units.  
    
    I heard that Magic was the only member of the President's AIDS
    Commission that didn't meet with the President yesterday.  It's not
    likle this guy has a job and is too busy to go.  If you sign up for
    something like that, you should make your commitments.
    
    Bruce   

    
     Bruce,
    
     I suppose you're right in that respect.  I don't want to sound like
    I think that that was a good policy by any stretch of the imagination,
    I don't.  I guess that the bottom line is that I would not feel
    comfortable serving in that type of environment (military) under
    those circumstances.  I have know problem working with those of
    alternate life styles. In FACK(tm) there is a gentleman in my group
    who is gay  (it's common knowledge and he's as much as stated it many
    times) with whom I work with almost every day.  In the work place
    I don't find it to be an issue.  Never having served in this great
    countrys military I can't say for certain that I would not feel the
    same but my gut feel tells me I wouldn't.  I can not speak for Kawk
    but thats just the way I feel...  I mean to slam no one and only 
    choose to speak my mind.  
    
    Big Game

Earvin went from saying that he "tried to
accomodate as many woman as possible"

to trying to say "I'm not like that, I respect woman"

Connie never asked this question ...

"Well then Mr Johnson, if you respect woman so much,
then how did you really get AIDS ??"

Connie did bring up Martina's comments that if it had
been a female athlete that she would not have recieved
the amount of support that he (Earvin) has

and it should not suprise anyone that he (finally) agreed

    I thought it was a good interview.  Magic isn't denying anything.  He
    admitted he made a mistake and that he's paying for it.  Give the guy a
    break.  He's in the "EYE OF THE STORM" right now.  I'm sure he's
    handling this situation as well as it can be given that his life has
    been dramatically changed so suddenly.  We all make mistakes.  Wouldn't
    it be nice if we had the ability to change the past?
    
    WILDCAT

    What Tragic did last night was craven pandering and frenetic spin
    control.  Dung shoulda axed, "well, how's accomodating women who
    want sex with you disrespecting them?"
    
    As for the analogy between divorcees and Tragic, bull.  The guy sired
    a kid and walked.  He never tried.  He wasn't interested.  He was too
    busy to undertake his parental responsibilities cuz that woulda impinged
    on his ability to sustain his "mass accomodation" of hundreds of women
    and quite possibly many boys.
    
    Sorry, I just don't see the comparo between somebody who walks from a
    child for selfish reason and two people who tried but couldn't make it
    work.
    
    Tragic's no spokesperson.  Who annoints these role models anyway?  It's
    happening again: Sports helped engender the notion that non-safety drug
    testing was acceptable, and now they're setting up the same for AIDS
    testing.
    
    Orwell was maybe the best-ever English language essayist.  Go back and
    read 1984 today and it looks crude and naive.  He never envisioned the
    sophisticated gullibility that goes into modern mass opinion programming.
    
    MrT

    Hawk -
    
    I disagree a 100%.  If it was Bird it would have really galvanized the
    nation - why?  Surburban America and the heartland would have really
    had its eyes opened.  A good ol' boy - and a WHITE guy - with AIDS
    who's a superstar AND an athlete.  There'd be no second guessing Birds'
    lifestyle.  No wondering "Was Larry Gay".  No, Hawk, I think that
    reaction would have been different for Larry, in that he wouldn't be
    put up to the 'he's a phoney' type charges being slung at Magic.  
    
    Because Larry's persona is that of a good ol small town country bumpkin
    who just happens to be able to play hoops better than just about
    anyone, an HIV-positive test on Larry would have really opened up eyes
    in white America.
    
    JD

    
    I saw the interview in question.  With all due respect to the 
    armchair cynics in here, above all I still believe Magic to be an 
    honest person and a good man.  Johnson's outspoken sincerity with 
    Connie Chung came across loud and clear in the interview.  There's 
    no phony in him.
    
    On another point, it's also clear to me that Johnson is doing his
    level best to stay out of the political haggles between gays and
    straights, men and women, monogamists and polygamists; whatever.
    That may eventually be impossible, but he's trying, and of course
    the result is that individual groups feel slighted and complain
    that Magic is delivering some kind of hypocritical mixed message.
    That's pure BS.
    
    Hawk, why do feel that Bird would have been treated differently?
    Not necessarily disagreeing, but what is your reasoning there?
    
    One thing to remember: feel free to apply whatever labels you wish
    to Magic (hero, antihero, role model, pariah) but as he said, he
    doesn't really care what people say.  He's not asking to be called
    any of those things.  He admitted to immoral activity and is trying
    to educate others based on his experience, even though so far it
    appears that the prudent course of action for a less thick-skinned
    individual would be just to disappear...
    
    glenn
    

    Wow...  I'm with Wildcat...  Give the poor guy a break.  
    He admitted he has made many mistakes in his life and
    now knows he was wrong.  He has asked for forgiveness
    from the world and from the higher powers that may be.
    Magic is paying the ultimate price for his actions, lets
    hope that none of us or those that are close to us end up 
    paying it too.  AIDS/HIV is a terrible thing.  I think 
    if we put as much effort in to undersatnding it,  helping
    the people who already have it, and working to support 
    those that are trying to fin a cure as we do worring about
    how someone got it or weather or not their a good role
    model we would all be much much better off.
    
    Big Game

The biggest modern myth being propagated by todays media is the equation:

Condom Use == Safe Sex == You Won't get AIDS

Studies have been done that show the failure rate on condoms coming out
of the factory can range as high as 3%, and this doesn't include the likely 
lowered effectiveness that results from enviornmental stress (keeping 'em
in your wallet, etc.) and improper use.  Also factor in the 'heat of the 
moment' reality, which might cause even the most conscientious person to
throw caution to the wind.

The ONLY way to avoid getting AIDS thru sex is thru abstinence prior to 
marriage, which ironically is something that's been Biblically mandated
for many thousands of years.  The irony stems from the fact that most
Christians don't believe AIDS is the result of judgement from God -
and this is contrary to what the modern media might have you believe, BTW -
but that sex outside of marriage is wrong because it makes a statement
about relational commitment that is false and damaging.  The fact that 
you literally risk your life by having sex nowadays is strictly a side
issue that may force people to change their lifestyles but for ultimately
the wrong reasons ...


    - ACC Chris

    

    
>    What Tragic did last night was craven pandering and frenetic spin
>    control.  Dung shoulda axed, "well, how's accomodating women who
>    want sex with you disrespecting them?"
     
    MrT, what exactly is the relevance of this thread?  Magic did *not* 
    say that he disrespected the women, and why would you expect a 
    feminist like Connie Chung to ask a question pushing your agenda 
    regarding the association between sex with a woman and some implied 
    disrespect?  I'm at a loss here...
    
    What Magic *did* say was that he used a poor choice of words in
    saying that he "accomodated" the women (actually he didn't, he used 
    the word absolutely correctly and in the right context but reactionary
    people are free to believe whatever they want to believe) because it 
    *sounds* chauvinistic and disrespectful, and he didn't mean it that 
    way so he wanted to make that clear.  So what?  You're skewering the 
    guy effectively for no more than his confusion and backtracking around 
    the English language...
    
    glenn
    
     
    

    Oh boy... Here come the Crusades...  A judgement handed down from 
    god for having sex outside of marriage.. GIVE ME A BIG BREAK !!
    
    Big Game

    Chris -
    
    Once again, you seem fit to nicely blame the wrongs of society on the
    media.  Get a life.  Everything I've read says "Use of condoms
    decreases the chance of getting disease." or "Use of condoms helps
    prevent sexually transmitted diseases."   Neither of those sentences
    guarentees it - all it takes is reading comprehension.
    
    As for the bible thing - first Chris, not everyone is  a Christian -
    hate to burst your little bubble, but that's the fact.  Second, anyone
    who believes that folks having sex out of wedlock is a recent thing has
    their haid not in the sand, but up somewhere else.  
    
    Abstinence is a guarentee (not counting possibilities of blood
    transfusions, etc.) - but to actually believe that abstinance can be
    forced upon a population is something that is a pipe dream.  Folks are
    going to have sex.  Always have, always will.  
    
    The media has nothing to do with it Chris. It's an easy scapegoat. 
    Every special interest group believes they aren't treated fairly by the
    big bad media.   Perhaps Chris, to placate you, the media should be
    controlled by either the church (no doubt good WASP's) or by the
    government.  Yeah, that's the ticket Chris.  Suppression.   If you
    don't see or hear about something - in must not be there.
    
    You can look at issues many ways - you can judge folks many ways.  One
    easy way is too look at things from the eyes of a professional, making
    decent money, with a nice family in a nice suburb.  And then judge
    everyone from that point of view.   It doesn't work for everyone.  
    
    The decision on having sex is really up to an individual, and shouldn't
    be dictated by any group to fit their ideals of 'perfection'.  Folks
    should understand all the risks, benefits, etc., of having sex. 
    
    I agree that abstinance should be taught as an option for folks - just
    as the use of condoms should be an option.  
    
    It isn't the media Chris - it's close-minded people.
    
    JD

       Good note JD, I agree 100%!
                                          Denny

    And to clarify something - I don't agree with the radical ways that
    certain groups are going around handing out safe-sex kits.  That, IMO,
    is the same as other groups condemning folks unless they practice
    abstinence.
    
    Unfortunately, both ends of the spectrum still have to resort to these
    tactics because school districts and government are frozen - they are
    afraid of offending special interest groups.  
    
    Each and every group should realize that the other group ISN'T THE
    ENEMY - that the HIV disease is the ENEMY - and that IGNORANCE is the
    biggest enemy of all.
    
    JD

    Funny how this issue of close-mindedness always comes up.  It seems to
    be an ingrained assumption that "Christian" people are somehow more
    closeminded than "non-Christian" people.  (Perhaps you could substitute
    the words "Conservative" and "Liberal" and come away with the same
    stereotype.)  It would seem that having a clear understanding of what
    is right and wrong forever brands you "closeminded" - a negative word
    to be sure.  By contrast being "openminded" means you really can't pass
    judgement on someone else, because you're not in a position to say
    what's right or wrong for someone else.  
    
    You do make my point though.  It's impossible for someone (relatively)
    rich like you or me to understand what's going on in the ghetto, which
    is where the AIDS problem figures to really spin wildly out of control
    (if it hasn't already).  Sports figures like Magic may be the only ones
    with a shot at reaching these kids.  They're also the ones least likely
    to use a condom properly.  Magic (until recently) hasn't even been
    mentioning abstinence in his 'Safe Sex' message.  The message is so
    simple a child could understand.  Use a condom and you won't get AIDS.
    This scares me, cause it simply is not true, and the people who are
    most likely to get hurt by this are the very ones you're apparently so
    worried about.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    re:.316
>    mentioning abstinence in his 'Safe Sex' message.  The message is so
>    simple a child could understand.  Use a condom and you won't get AIDS.
>    This scares me, cause it simply is not true, and the people who are
      
     Care to point us to where the media, or Magic for that matter, has said
    this? Be specific now. None of this "they say it all the time" stuff.
                                     Denny

    
    Chris -
    
    What is the truth?  What you want to hear?  That's the big problem with
    folks complaining about the media.  If one reads enough of the media
    (and I still find the print media to be better for information than
    sound bites on the evening news) one can find information on subjects
    from all points of view.  One doesn't need to be liberal, conservative,
    muslim, christian, jewish, white, black, rich, poor, surburban, urban
    to find out and explore the issues.
    
    As for closeminded - non-christians and christians are more the same
    then they like to think (FYI, I am christian).    Conservative and
    liberal are, IMO, two of the stupidest labels every invented.  
    
    You imply that being christian automatically means one has a clear
    understanding of what is right and wrong.  Seems that the jails
    probably hold a lot of good christians.  And I'm sure some Muslims,
    Jews, atheists, druids, satanists and accountants.
    
    Is it right to have sex out of wedlock?  Is it wrong?  For some folks
    whose religious beliefs dictate the former, then they may feel it is
    wrong - and here's the operative concept Chris - for them.  Wrong for
    THEM.  Not for others.  FOR THEM.   For other folks, it isn't wrong -
    and they aren't less 'pure' or any less human or special than others.
    
    A lot of folks criticize the media - and one of the cornerstones of
    freedom of the presses (remember that one - one of them pesky
    constitution thangs....) is that the media is to inform - and should be
    criticized and praised.  If only stories that folks wanted to hear or
    read about were published, then folks may be happier - but the media
    wouldn't be doing their job.
    
    Sure, it sucks to hear about crime and sickos and natural disasters. 
    But they happen - and they'd happen even if no one reported them. 
    Earthquakes wouldn't stop cuz the media didn't report them.  Folks
    wouldn't stop killing.   Drug  use wouldn't stop.  Politicians wouldn't
    become less corrupt or inept.  Just folks would be less informed.  And
    that would be the true crime. That would be a national tragedy.  
    
    IN a way, its good that folks blame the media and get down on them.  It
    means that it is still doing its job, as outlined by our founding
    fathers.  Think of the alternative - the Nazi press reported the
    'truth' to its folks very well.  All was well in the land.  Even when
    things were crumbling.
    
    Remember, a chrisitan can have so-called 'convservative' views and/or
    'liberal' views - yes, folks can have both.  Amazing, but it happens
    (of course, once I find out the definitive model of exactly what a
    conservative or liberal is, things will be easier, I've never met one
    that fits either label perfectly...)
    
    JD 

    Great Note JD...  Wish I could get that stuff to come out of my
    fingers and make sense the way you did...
    
    BG

    
    Seems to me that I heard Magic saying last night that he had sinned 
    in the eyes of God and that his actions were indeed immoral (not
    *wrong* because of their ultimate result, *immoral* by their very
    nature).  Now myself, I think that's a load of poop, but you would
    think it would keep those who say we should look to the Bible for
    the answer happy about the way this episode is being presented.  
    Magic endorsed your position.  So what more does he need to do?  
    Endure a public stoning?
    
    glenn
     

    re: .-1
    
    Didn't see the ConnieDung interview glenn - was watching Seton Hall vs.
    Rutgers.  If Magic said what you indicate I'm very surprised it didn't
    end up on the cutting room floor.  
    
    
    re: JD
    
    Good note JD.  The only comment I'd make stems from your title. 
    Namely, "What is TRUTH??".  In the case of a philosophical religious
    debate I certainly could never "prove" my case.  Where the issue is
    AIDS, however, it's an objective scientific FACT that using a condom
    does not guarantee you won't get AIDS.  My own personal feeling is that
    the message our pop culture is delivering on this subject is extremely
    false and misleading, and the media is fanning the flames.  
    
    It's always possible I'm overly cynical, but, again, anytime I hear the
    "Safe Sex == Use a Condom" message I get worried.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    >Magic did *not* say that he disrespected the women.
    
    Bingo.  Tragic played along with the feminist Dung's line that having
    sex with women who wanted it was somehow disrespectful of them.  This
    is a classic PC line that the feminazis have been pushing with limited
    success for years (that women who want sex don't know what they really
    want).  This is a disgusting move by Tragic cuz it's hypocritical.  I
    cain almost hear his drama coach saying, "but Tragic!, now that you're
    a national political leader you mustn't say what you really feel (that
    you wanted the women, dug the sex, and the orgasms felt great) because
    this is unacceptable.  You must go along with the feminist Dung that 
    having sex is to disrespect the other sex."
    
    If Tragic-the-National-Leader weren't a hypocrite he'd say the truth:
    "I had the sex and I loved it and I'm gonna die for it and that's too
    bad.  But I don't believe that having sex with women who want it is
    sexist.  It's not.  It's good.  The only bad part is that you cain die
    from it."   (We'll let lay the mid-court kiss and the persistent rumors
    in LA the last decade about Tragic-the-Paragon being bi.)
    
    Funny how Tragic has changed his mind all of a sudden.  Also it's pretty
    queer how he's a_instant Christian, a new main, a born again main, who
    is making public pronouncements that the "old" Tragic was "immoral" but
    how the "new" Tragic is "moral."  Also it's odd how Tragic has backtracked  
    from his safe-sex message to total abstinence.  Lemme see, hmmm: First
    he luvs sex with women (and quite possibly men too, given that it is far
    more likely that he contracted it that way), then he has AIDS and comes
    out of the closet as a self-appointed national spokesperson, and NOW,
    after bad media reaction to the safe-sex product he's declares himself
    a bored-again Christian and he's pushing total abstinence.
    
    Hey, Tragic, if I ran through as much super high quality poon as you
    have I might be ready to retire my staff too, but some of us still have
    ground to cover.  And, Tragic, it's E-Z for you to declare *your* rod
    retired now that it's unmarketable.
    
    Clearly Tragic's backtracking and is a hypocrite.  
    
    As for the divorce vs. Tragic thing, if you cain't see the difference
    you're blind.  The guy sired a child and refused to accept responsiblity
    for rearing the child.  That's cold.  
    
    Funny how this bastard-sire has been accepted by the political community
    as a paragon of responsibility.  Tragic should be excoriated by them,
    especially by black leaders.  Go to the ghetto and see what the routine
    acceptance of fatherless children wreaks.
    
    
    

    I think that what is wanted is for Magic to get up and say "Never
    ever have sex out of wedlock". "Read the Bible and beleive that 
    this 2000 year old document is applicable in every way".  "Never
    question the athority of the church,  be a good sheep a follow
    the flock".  "Drink the Kool-Aid...  it won't hurt you".  This kind
    of junk make me want to puke !!  Why can't we just educate people 
    with the straight facts instead of all this right vs. wrong crap.
    
    
    BG

    I watched the entire program last night, with my son.  If you have
    kids, a tape or transcript of the show can make an *excellent* starting
    point for discussion with your children.  It brings up all sorts of
    points of view, which you can augment or refute as you deem
    appropriate.
    
    My son was really distressed by the segment with high school seniors. 
    (He was in the AP English class in his high school - they could have
    been talking to him.)  His distress was at Connie Chung's amazement/
    disbelief that there were members of the class *who were still
    virgins*.  It angered him that the option of abstainence was not given
    more airplay, and that those students were implied to be somewhat
    abnormal.  Among his friends, he believes that less than 35% are
    sexually active.  He admits that some of this may be a difference
    between suburban/rural kids and inner-city urban, but still......
    
    A&W 

    The Magic == Christian angle is interesting.  Certainly never heard him
    mention this before, which brings up a simple fact of human nature. 
    Namely, that one can pretty much trivialize religion UNTIL one stares 
    death in the face.  (Whether their own or someone they're close to.)  
    
    At that point we all want some hope to cling to.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    True Chris...  I've seen it happen...
    
    BG

    Two things.....
    
    1. I have seen with my own two eyes and heard with a least one of my
       ears, Magic Johnson state on TV that abstinence is the BEST method
       of AIDS transmission prevention. 
               
    2. J.D.,  given my accounting degree, I must object to your placement
       of accountants BELOW Droods and Satanists (accountants deserve EQUAL
       billing with the aforementioned!!!)!!!

    >I haven't heard a thing about mandatory AIDS testing being set up
    
    Oh go back and get honest with my words: "it's happening again."  I
    didn't say or imply that it'd already happened.  The NHL and NBA met
    to discuss mandatory testing.  The reason they're teaming up is that
    they're looking to share legal expenses with a NY law firm that may
    be able to get them past the constitutional barriers presented by our
    once involate rights to privacy.
    
    What's the rationale?  As with drug testing, the only rationale is to
    protect their legal interests.  A coked up Tim Raines performed poorly
    while making a million a year.  The leagues are terrified of signing
    a long-term guaranteed contract with a star only to have him cash the
    checks from a clinic as his hair falls out.  That's the rationale.
    
    But they'll cloak this violation of our constitutional rights with the
    "educational" spin, and they'll use the craven Tragic to handle the PR
    front.  Winnging smile --> losing rights.
    
    And, after the masses spend a few years reading about how wonderful it
    is that their star athletes, the nation's service economy role models,
    are being force-tested for the AIDS bug, it'll spill into the real 
    economy with nary a peep cuz the mass consciousness had been conditioned
    to accept it as ok.  This is what happened with non-safety drug testing.
    
    >Got any facts to back these assertions?
    
    Sure do: 
    
    1) Tragic admitted publicly a long time ago that he copped out on his child.
       Now he's an emerging world-wide leader on family values.  Got to love
       America and its family values.  No nation in the world talks to  itself
       as much as we do about family values.  And no nation practices family
       values lower than ours.
    
    2) The National Institutes of Health, The Institut Pasteur, and other
       research agencies have concluded that it is thousands of times easier
       to catch the AIDS bug through human male homosexual sex, or from male- 
       to-female human heterosex.  They also admit that they have yet to
       clinically prove human female-to-male heterosex, something that drives
       the feminists crazy.  
    
       Also, note that I said "quite possibly."  The mid-court kiss, the 
       statements by some in the party crowd in LA...  Who knows?  I don't
       get upset at this probability as you guys do cuz I'm not, a_, er,
       "homophobe."  [sic]
    
    MrT
    
    

           
    >> Magic did *not* say that he disrespected the women.
      
    > You must go along with the feminist Dung that 
    > having sex is to disrespect the other sex."
      
    Did you even see the interview, MrT?  Maybe I wasn't clear.  Johnson
    did not go along with any feminist rhetoric.  He admitted he had
    sex with many women but said that did not mean (by definition) that
    he was disrespectful of them.  He did backtrack around the use of
    the word "accomodate" and he didn't make the outrageously "honest"
    and "non-hypocritical" professions you would have him make.  Big deal.
    
    > As for the divorce vs. Tragic thing, if you cain't see the difference
    > you're blind.  The guy sired a child and refused to accept responsiblity
    > for rearing the child.  That's cold.  
      
    You're blowing smoke here, unless you can supply some evidence that
    Johnson "refused to accept responsibility".  What are you suggesting
    he should have done here besides what he has done (financial and 
    personal commitment)?  Sue for custody?  Get married so that he could 
    then get a divorce later and satisfy your criteria regarding divorced
    parents?
                           
    glenn
    

    Am I abstinent? No.
    Am I monogamous? No.
    Do I wear a condom when I have sex? Yes.
    Am I worried about catching AIDS? Yes.
    Will I change my lifestyle because of this? No.  (And you wouldn't
    either if you could see some of the lovelies in the recent months.)

    To quote Jack London:

    "The proper function of a man is to live, not to exist.  I will not
    spend my days in trying to prolong them.  I shall use up my time."

    	--dan'l

    Yeah, I saw the interview and when he hypocritically backtracked
    on how he enjoyed all those beautiful people he got inside of he
    he immediately blabbed (from memory), "I just didn't have sex with
    anybody who came along.  I respect women.  I respect women too much
    to do that."  Or somesuch.  The clear implication, taken in a preview
    AP article in yesterday's paper, btw, was that he felt that being
    promiscuous with women is disprectful to the the female sex, er, I
    mean gender.
    
    re 1
    
    Whoa, Mac, get your facts straight.  When Tragic annointed himself 
    a national spokesperson and leader on AIDS and sexual behavior he
    was issuing pronouncements about safe-sex.  After a few weeks the bad
    reviews started coming in about how bad this was.  Then, he announced
    that he's a bored-again Christian, that he didn't "accomodate all who
    wanted it," declaimed his previous self as "immoral," and began pushing
    "total abstinence as the only safe-sex."
    
    MrT

    Good point Chris.  When people face death, I'd imagine that the vast
    majority re-evaluate their values, priorities, etc.  When you know that
    you don't have much time left on this planet, it makes you look back at
    what kind of person you've been, etc.  Unfortunately it seems the vast
    majority are so caught up with SELF that they lose sight of their
    fellow man.  Most of us think life will go on forever.  Perhaps that's
    why people don't make positive changes in their life because they
    believe they have plenty of time left.
    
    Why get on Magic now?  He's admitted his mistakes, and he wants to
    spend the rest of his time trying to help spare others the pain he now
    experiences.  If a person has any conscience at all, then when faced
    with death he will probably be sorry about his actions.  More than
    likely, whatever is left of their life will change dramatically.
    
    WILDCAT

    
    MrT, I share your constitutional concerns around mandatory AIDS 
    testing, but I'm reluctant to lump Magic Johnson into that movement
    until I hear him say anything indicating that he might be part of it.  
    I dunno, maybe you're right that he's being set up to be used, but I 
    seriously doubt that he himself is even aware of it.  As such, I 
    hardly see how he's deserving of your criticism on these grounds...
    
    glenn
    
        

    Chris -
    
    Faced with death, human beings have been known to cling to anything,
    try anything, and do anything.  It's a basic instinct for survival. 
    Some folks do just give up.  Others fight.  People will try
    experimental drugs, will move to different climes, and turn to the
    bible, the koran, the complete works of Herman Munster - anything if
    they think it might help them in any way.  
    
    Wildcat -
    
    Not sure what you mean by 'positive changes' in life.  Is there a
    roadmap for such changes?  Does it fit every single human being on this
    planet?   Are this preconceived positive changes that fit one sects
    perception of perfectiont?
    
    
    
    Overall, it comes down to the individual.  No one is shoving a condom
    on a kids prick, hovering them over an orifice of choice, and plunging
    them in it.  (sorry for crudness).  If someone is already sexually
    active, or has already decided that they will be sexually active (I.E.
    the 'just so no' bit doesn't fit into their plans), then a condom can
    provide more safety than not using one.   Just like wearing a seat belt
    can help prevent injuries and death in a car accident - or a helmet can
    prevent serious injuries in bike accidents - but neither a seat belt or
    a helmet guarentee immortality (nothing does).
    
    I've read numerous accounts, ads, columns that state that abstinence is
    the only 100% guarentee from preventing sexually transmitted diseases -
    but that if one is not going to abstain, one should wear a condom to
    lesson the risk of these STD's.   That's simple enough.  Even a child
    can understand.  Maybe even some adults.
    
    JD

    Dan'l,
    
    	I'm going on 19 years o being married.  In the spirit of
    Jack's quote, want some of MY time????
    
    ;^)
    
    Kev
    

    
    re .312

>    Ok, first, it's based on what I've read in here [::sports] over the 
>    many years.  Bird has always been accused of having no personality. 
>    He's boring.  Wouldn't want him at the dinner table.  Etc.
    
    Hawk, coem on. If anything, it's been a marketing tool. Bird shuns the
    media glare as a function of his small town upbringing. 
    
    No big deal, and no one holds it against him personally.
    
>  Then, he gets accused of only being a superstar because he's White.  Only got
>    all those MVP's because he's White.  If he were Black, he's be lucky to
>    be playing in Italy.  Crap like that. 
    
    Wong. What people had a problem with is the Great White Hope spin that
    was put on so much of his accomplishments.
    
    Larry Is God .... Larry is sooo smart ... Larry is a great player
    because of his intellgence ... etc etc etc ....
    
    Often the implication was that Larry didn't have any real physical
    talent, but he worked hard and was smart, which gave him an advantage
    of those talented, but lazy, spolied, and *stupid* black players.
    
    Black players (and fans) got pi**ed off - and RIGHTFULLY so with that
    stereotype.
    
    Over the last few years, I've noticed a change for the better. And
    that's good. But Hawk, few, if any people (even Isiah and Rodman) have
    EVER said that Bird was not a great player. Period. But every time a
    great (or even good) white player came along, the media jumped on the
    Great White Hope Bandwagon, and rode it for all it was worth (Bill
    Walton and Rick Barry were a couple of others).
    
    If a white guy who ran like Barry Sanders or Eric Dickerson came along,
    watch what will happen ....
    
 
>   And, this isn't just from the anti's- Bird worshippers have said this too...
    
    That ought to tell you something
    
    FWIW, I agree with JD, if Bird had come down with the HIV virus, that
    would have had even more impact than Magic with respect to white
    America.
    
    But Arsenio ? Not Bird's speed .... I think Hall would have loved to
    have him, but Larry strikes me as being the type to live quietly.
    
    And I also agree with Martina's assertion. It doesn't say a lot for
    this society .....
    
    Dr M

     I think the reason the Larry Bird of the world (ie: white sports stars)
    seem to get blown up by media attention is because their are so few of 
    them. 
    
    BG

    
    Stuff like "hero worship" and "Great White Hope adulation" is 
    entirely subjective.  Since the day they came out of college together
    as peers, I've seen absolutely no evidence that Larry Bird has received
    more positive publicity or has been universally regarded as a smarter 
    or better player or any of that other stuff than Magic Johnson.  Who
    is going to deny that either of these guys are amongst the very
    smartest players in the league?!  Of course there are going to be 
    regional biases, such that (and this is a shocker!) New England is 
    pro-Bird and California is pro-Magic.
        
    The shoe doesn't fit here.
    
    glenn
    

    >I got my facts straight.  I never heard Magic say...
    
    You really SHOULD get your facts straight, Mac.  Got to admit, though,
    for being so wrong you sure sound confident.
    
    Trouble is, you at loggerheads with statments made by Tragic, as has
    been documented in dozens of syndicated columns and gone over ad nauseum
    on countless TV and radio talk shows.
    
    If you wanna reinvent reality, fine by me.
    
    MrT

    >Tell me again how I don't have my facts straight.
    
    Ok: You don't have your facts straight.  This is obvious.
    
    >"I want young people to realize they can practice safe sex," Johnson
    >said.
    
    Then, in the Dung intereview:
    
    >"The only safe sex is abstinence." 
    
    This is called backtracking.  It's called hypocrisy.  It's called being
    a phony who is recreating himself according to the PC criteria for self-
    appointed behavior modification spokespersons.  
    
    No, Mac, you've just proven for me that you didn't have your facts
    straight.  Tragic initially came out advocating rubbers; now that he's 
    suddenly a bored-again Christian he's advocating total abstinence or
    maybe a little masturbation even though that leads to wart-lined palms
    carpeted with pubic hair.
    
    Now that Tragic is a_inspiring national leader I'm hoping he'll give
    a lecture at Harvard about family values.  Maybe some student will axe
    him about how he's already walked from one child.
    
    MrT

    
    "Bored-again Christian" advocating total abstinence, MrT?  Hardly.
    Magic conceded what he did was wrong in the eyes of God.  Apparently
    he's a believer but not exactly what you'd call a devout practicer.  
    That was about the extent of any religious message included in the 
    interview.
    
    So Magic, maybe even at the advice of some of his handlers, beefed
    up the abstinence message and included it in his repertoire.  Don't
    recall him ever saying that it was the only option.  I'd call that 
    responsible, if anything.  Big deal.  Have your fun, MrT...
    
    glenn
     
    

What a load of rubbish from Mr. T.  To begin with, where the hell
did you hear Magic say he was a born again Christian?  Nowhere, because
he hasn't.  

On this issue of safe sex, in Magic's first few public appearances
following the news that he had tested HIV positive, he repeatedly
spoke of the importance of using a condom.  After that, some folks
pointed out that, because condoms sometimes fail, the only completely
safe sex is no sex.   So, Magic, wanting to be accurate in the message
he was sending to kids, started including mention of abstinence in
his comments.  There's no backtracking here, no hypocrisy.  After all,
if he had sold out to the right wing, fundamentalist crowd, he wouldn't
even mention the word condom.  But he still does.

As for his kid, what's the big deal?  He had a child with a woman,
and he was not interested in marrying.  She lived in Michigan.  He
lived in L.A. but his work necessitated that he travel all around
the country.  So, they decide that the kid should live with the mother
in Michigan.  Did he ever back off his responsibility as the father?
No.  He has provided financial support, and he has always been a 
part of the kid's life.  No different than many other families where
the parents have divorced.

And finally, why do you continue to talk about Magic being bisexual
or homosexual?  I haven't heard a single piece of evidence to suggest
this is even a remote possibility.  And yet you keep talking about
Magic having sex with "boys."  Boys?  What do you think he is, a 
Massachusetts Congressman?    The fact is that there is no substance
to such drivel, just as we never really heard any substance to the 
ugly, probably fabricated but nonetheless intriguing, rumor that
briefly circulated about ten years ago but was quickly squashed by
the major press outlets -- that Bobby Knight routinely had sex with
his mother throughout his teenage years.

Laker_Ken

    Laker_Ken
    Not to nit pick but in the future, when you plan to use
    the word "Congressman", please use "Congrescritter".
    
    Thanks,
    Kev
    

    >Show me where Magic defined safe sex or even mentioned the use of a
    >condom (rubber).
    
    So here's the crux.  Mac, you've slouched from accusing me of not
    having my facts straight to putting yourself in the position of saying
    that safe sex hasn't been defined primarily as using rubbers.
    
    Good luck you're gonna need it.  Tragic droned on about safe sex and
    he was clearly talking about using rubbers and everybody in the USA
    but you knew this.  Oh sure, safe sex also means not boo-fooing with
    homosexuals or deep-kissing heroin addicted bag persons, but you know
    what my point is.
    
    Better luck next time.
    
    >Another T-fact?
    
    Joke, Mac.  The part about the wart-lined palms carpeted with pubic 
    hair was a joke.  Is there no depth you won't stoop to to try and nail
    me on unfacutaliT?  You're gonna have to upgrade me to reach your goal
    for I aim... MrT: SPORTS' Objective Analyst.  And that's a fact!
    
    MrT

     Ya don't seem so objective to me "T"  What is it that you have
    against Magic !!
    
    BG

    >Sorry, T, but you were the one accusing me of not having my facts
    >stragiht.
    
    Yeah, *sure* Mac:
    
    .307>Got any facts to back up these assertions?
    
    .337>You haven't been paying attentoin to what people have actually
    .337>saying from day1.
    
    .347>Another example of a T-fact?
    
    As for your weak argument that safe sex hasn't been primarily a matter
    of using condoms, I dunno what to say.  The Surgeon General has always
    argued that the safest sex was no sex at all, but that's a non sequitur,
    cuz non-sex isn't sex, it's non-sexual behavior.
    
    I won't bother researching how calling for "safe sex" in this country
    is primarily calling for rubbers, or where Tragic himself for safe sex,
    cuz it's obvious that you'd just ignore these facts - especially in 
    light of your having denied these self-evident things are real.
    
    Sigh.
    
    MrT

    > Ya don't seem so objective to me "T"  What is it that you have
    >against Magic !!
    
    Shhhh, Big Game: If Brydie catches you not punctuated a question
    with a question mark he'll imply that you're "not smart enough!"
    
    But to answer the question you axed: What I have against Tragic is
    his actions since he has donned the mantle of National Leader.  He's
    a hypocrite (he walked from his child), a George Bush-style 'vane (he 
    switched form preaching safe sex [rubbers] to no sex after being 
    criticized), and self-serving craven PR grub.
    
    I have nothing against him personally.  For example, most a you
    react violently when we speak of the probabilty that Tragic caught 
    the AIDS bug by hooking up with a boy.  Why the homophobia.  [sic]
    
    MrT

    [sic] Yo, Shagnasty [sic]
    
    I think [sic] that you [sic] [sic] should perhaps [sic]
    see a [sic][sic][sic][sic] Doctor [sic] about [sic] those
    [sic] hick ups!
    
    medically[sic]speaking I remain,
    Kev
    

    
>    I have nothing against him personally.  For example, most a you
>    react violently when we speak of the probabilty that Tragic caught 
>    the AIDS bug by hooking up with a boy.  Why the homophobia.  [sic]
     
    There is no such "probability".  There is a possibility, as there
    always is when analyzing a case from the outside without 100%
    documented evidence.  When you apply the statistics that you're so 
    fond of to the evidence in the particular case, against Magic's 
    admitted and confirmed gross promiscuity with promiscuous women, 
    the probability is that he contracted the disease exactly as he says.
    
    There's also the matter of taking a man's word for what it's worth.
    You're calling Magic a liar.  People have objected to that, so you
    accuse them of homophobia.  Very tacky, and very weak...
    
    glenn
    

    Mac, you cain run down all the lawyerly obfuscation you want but
    the simple FACTS are these:
    
    * You said that Tragic wasn't pushing rubbers
    * You said that safe sex doesn't primarily mean rubbers
    * You said that Tragic didn't backtrack when he went from the safe
      sex to the no sex
    
    MrT

    Look, it's *you* guys who flap your arms and angrily bark like dogs
    when I bring up the possiblity, even probabilty, that Tragic likes
    to have sex with boys.  What's to get uptight about?  What's wrong
    with human male homosexuality?  Did you guys flunk out a your Valuing
    Differences seminar?
    
    The chances are exponentially higher that Tragic contracted the AIDS
    bug through human male homosexual behavior than from a woman.  The
    circumstances surrounding him over the months leading up to his dramatic,
    carefully orchestrated, self-serving announcement were wierd to the
    point that questions are being raised, especially outside a this file.
    
    Key wierd circumstance is that with his sudden marriage, Tragic, as
    they say, "grew a beard."  And quickly.
    
    I'll never forget Tragic kissing Isiah at midcourt, will you?
    
    MrT
    

    
    T, weird is spelled w-e-i-r-d not w-i-e-r-d.
    
    HTH

    I've been presenting facts from the beginning.  YOU are the one
    who started off saying that Tragic hadn't backtracked.  Thanx to
    me we now know that he did.  YOU are the one who relied on the
    non sequitur about safe sex.  When it was pointed out all over the
    media to Tragic's discomfort that maybe teens should just not have
    sex (i.e., make out, fondle) but not have rubber-sheathed penile
    penetration, you sagged from your unbelievable denial that those
    print ads and billboards and how-to manuals with rubbers in them 
    and those millions of rubbers they're handing out in high schools
    in the cause of "safe sex" didn't mean that the primary thrust (pun
    fully and unapologetically intended) of safe sex wasn't rubbers.
    
    YOU.  
    
    MrT 

    Brydie, first you embarrass yourself with your ignorance of the 
    common non-use of question mark punctuation when axeing rhetorical/
    declarative statements in modern English, and now you're correcting
    typos?
    
    I bet you just shudder with intensity when you read through those
    overwrought Ayn Rand teen-tomes, dontcha?  [no sic]
    
    MrT

    I suppose since Magic didn't say anything about sharing needles during
    his retirement speech that he is also condoning intraveneous drug use.

    I love it !!!
    
    The Mac & T show...  You guys slay me !!
    
    BG

 re .365
          
>>    I bet you just shudder with intensity when you read through those
>>    overwrought Ayn Rand teen-tomes, dontcha?  [no sic]
  
      Haven't read them since I *was* a teen but thanks for asking and for
      punctuating the sentence correctly.
    
      As far as the corrections go, I wouldn't have felt it necessary if you
     hadn't started bashing a semi-literate with a drug problem. Could there
     be any easier target ? The man has a problem.

    Of course Magic has also offended the married folks in the audience by
    not saying that safe sex also includes sex in a monogamous relationship
    between uninfected consenting participants.

Re. -1:  It may very well be true.  It would go a long way towards
explaining his weird behavior over the years -- tossing the chair,
biting the Puerto Rican cop's ear off, tossing in the towel against
the Soviets, etc.  It's that Oedipal rage building up inside the
man.  He can usually keep it under control, what with the Thorazine
an all, but I suppose every once in a while the memories rush over
him like a wave, his blood starts a boiling, and the next thing you 
know ol' Bob's got that lunatic look in his eyes.

Laker_Ken

    >biting the Peurto Rican cop's ear off
    
    Never happened.  The PR pushed him and in response he jacked his
    jaw.
    
    >tossing in the towel against the Soviets, etc.
    
    Never happened.  He was called for his third TF and was the game 
    was called by the officials.  Bob refused to take his team from the
    floor (even after the Russians left) and was ordered to do so.  For
    this the media, excepting Dick Vitale and a few writeres who were 
    actually there, reported that he pulled his team in a fit of pique
    when in fact the opposite was true.
    
    Btw, the USA Basketball's Director sent Knight a letter of apology 
    becaue the officials had quit enforcing the American basketball rules
    in what they felt was a gesture of diplomacy.
    
    MrT
       

    >I suppose since Magic didn't say anything about sharing needles during
    >his retirement speech that he is also condoning intraveneous drug use.
    
    I wouldn't say that.  What I would say is that this self-appointed nat'l
    spokesperson did in fact begin pronouncing to our nation's youth that
    safe sex (i.e., rubbers) was the only way to go.
    
    MrT

    >Of course Magic has also offended the married folks in the audience
    >by not saying that safe sex also includes sex in a monogamous 
    >relationship between uninfected consenting participants.
    
    I doubt that.  What I think such people find offensive is Tragic's 
    presumptuous self-importance, his hypocrisy, and his self-serving
    backtracking.
    
    People who aren't out there jumping into piles of girls and boys on
    a nightly basis aren't really interested in being "taught" by somebody
    who, Dave Stewart-style, suddenly confesses and rues his "mistake" once
    finally caught.
    
    MrT

    >As for (Tragic Johnson's) kid, what's the big deal?
    
    It's tragic how this country's social mores have slid into the mire.
    What's the big deal.  A fatherless child.  And certainly this bit of
    Tragic trash shouldn't detract at all from a self-appointed political
    spokesperson's portfolio!  Certainly a fearful quaking nation should
    turn to a basketball player who sired a bastard and led a life of high
    risk sex and then suddenly "found God" to find out what to do.
    
    As for the bisexual thing, Tragic brought it up.  In a hilarious piece
    of PR phoniness, he somehow got his doctor to pronounce at a press 
    conference that this HIV was "contracted heterosexually."  Really?  Had
    the doc been following Tragic's johnson around for the last decade. How
    would he know [he doesn't] and why is he giving medical opinions publicly
    about something he doesn't know a rat's ass about?  And why is Tragic so
    adamant that he doesn't like penile pentration with other men?
    
    I put no stock in the decade-old rumor that Tragic was doing both boys
    and girls.  And, unlike the rest of you, not being a homophobe [sic] I
    could care less what he does with his Magic Johnson.  
    
    All I put stock in is the medically documented fact that is thousands
    of times more likely he got it having homosex.
    
    So long as he's thrust himself into the middle of a critical national
    issue and is holding himself up as proof that heterosexual men are 
    threatened just as much as anybody (which isn't true) then he leaves 
    himself open to question.
    
    As the doctors said in that Time article, "they all come in insisting 
    they got it through heterosexual contact and we say 'yeah yeah' and
    comfort them.  But then later when they're on their death beds they
    confess that they were bisexual or drug users or whatever." (paraphrase).
    
    Why should a guy who made as many penetrating passes as Tragic Johnson
    be different?
    
    MrT

    
    Mr. T,
    
    Your insistence that Magic must have had contracted the HIV virus as a
    result of homosexual/bisexual encounter is getty really old and stale.
    
    How 'bout this - one or more of the women that he slept with had at
    some point slept with an HIV infected man....or one of them was an IV
    drug user....or one of them had had a tainted transfusion at one point.
    The Isiah thang (didn't see it, heard about it, don't really give a
    crap) is not indicative of his lifestyle.
    
    Sheesh, T, sounds like ya kind of *want* him to be gay/bisexual....Why? 
    So with your morality shining like a beacon you can pass judgement on
    him?  Sounds like it to me.....
    
    The man is HIV infected - how he got it is unimportant at this point. 
    Your continuing assertion that he most likely had sex 'with boys' is
    not only tiresome, but also dangerously close to being libelous, if the
    forum were public.
    
    JMO.  
    
    
    Cath
    
    PS.  A semi-important nit:  he does NOT have AIDS.  He is HIV infected. 
        
    

    >Your insistence that Magic must have had contracted the HIV virus as
    >a result of homosexual/bisexual encounter is getty really old and
    >stale.
    
    I've "insisted" no such thing.  And if you find it old and stale butt
    out (pun fully and unapologetically intended).
    
    >how he contracted it is unimportant.
    
    Oh bullsheet.  He, the AIDS industry, and the media are trumpeting his 
    alleged heterosexual contraction as a key issue for his exploitation as
    a symbol, example, and spokesperson.  
    
    And nothing is close to libelous.  This *is* a public forum, but because
    it's a not-for-profit non-PC two-way public forum what's being said on
    the streets by millions is being said by me, and only me, in here.  The
    cirumstances surrounding Tragic's rollout of his heroic tragedy were
    extremely suspect.  He's a hypocrite (bastard sire).  He's now emerged
    as a cow-towing Bush-style backtracker.
    
    He's a perfect example of just how low our national public discourse
    has sagged.  But cain it get worse?  Sure it can: Lou Alcindor has
    seized the moment to campaign against AIDS by... playing basketball.
    
    Such heroic selflessness!
    
    MrT

     Yawn !!!!...  This has been the same crap for days now...
    Kind of remeinds me of a Broncos/Browns rat hole.
    
    BG

    Oh shaddap Big Name.  We've learned some new stuff in here the past
    week:
    
    That it's not a bad thing to walk away from responsibility for a 
    child.
    
    That even though Tragic's alleged heterosexual contraction is the key
    to his political stardom it's otherwise a non-issue.
    
    That Tragic pushed rubbers but now is pushing abstinence but anyway
    is now a Jesus freak and so isn't a backtracker.
    
    That everything's gonna be ok cuz Lou Alcindor is coming back.
    
    That people are skeered a homosexuals cuz they put the fear back into
    "homophobe."
    
    MrT

    Don't forget:
    
    We also larn'ed that Wilt the stilt dorked 8 women a day all his life!
    
    Now thats a lay-up.
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach 

U.S. News                         LIVE WIRE

                 Digital's AIDS Program featured in 'USA Today'

  Digital's AIDS Program is the subject of a story in this morning's edition of
  "USA Today."  The article, "Businesses break through some barriers," is about
  large corporations dealing with the costs and consequences of AIDS.  It's on 
  the front page of the "Money" section.

  The article mentions that Digital is part of the 20 percent of large 
  corporations that have written policies or programs on AIDS.  Digital is 
  one of the few that have mandatory AIDS education programs for employees.
  In an effort to put a human face on the disease, Digital's AIDS seminars 
  feature speakers with HIV.

  For more information on Digital's AIDS Program, contact Paul Ross, manager, 
  at DTN 223-9580.

    MrT...  You Slay Me !!!  
    
    BG

    You're the one averting your eyes from the established facts of the
    matter, Mac.  FACTS.  So a guy worth $50 million is throwing a few
    bucks to his illegitimate son.  So this makes him an exmplar?
     
    Another fact (which you've given up on disputing him) is that Tragic
    has changed his "recommendations" to the nation based on criticisms
    sufferred.  Perhaps this is why he droned on for ten minutes or so
    in the Dung interview about how he couldn't care less how people 
    perceive him.  I.e., he's a craven political puppet.
    
    MrT

Re.

    >biting the Peurto Rican cop's ear off
    
    >>Never happened.  The PR pushed him and in response he jacked his
    >>jaw.

The major U.S. press organizations, not wanting to portray Knight as
an ugly American, used the above toned down version.  However, some
small Latino newspapers picked up on the true, much grizzlier story.
Some months afterwards, one of those small lefty magazines like
Mother Jones mentioned the story, treating the incident almost as
a matter of humorous trivia.  According to that account, Knight had
a teeth-hold on the cop's ear for the better part of five minutes
while they wrestled on the ground.  By the time they dragged him 
off, it was pretty much severed flush with the head.  Nothing but
a nub left.

Laker_Ken

    >MrT... You Slay Me !!!
    
    Just trying to git to the bottom a this case, Game.  There's too
    dagblamed much self-censorship and Pollyannish muddlehaidedness 
    going on with this Tragic Johnson tragedy for me to let it lay
    (pun intended).
    
    MrT

    Oh yeah, now you're quoting Mother Jones the commie newspaper?!
    
    What we *do* know from the 30 or so eyewitnesses (the womens
    and mens team's players and staffs) was that the cop insisted on
    "helping" the women get the court cleared even though the men's
    team still had time left.  Everybody agreed that the cop became
    abusive and made the first move in the fight.  From there he got
    his ass kicked real bad, which is cool.  I've had people start
    fights with me and usually (but unfortunately not always) was able
    to kick their asses.  Biting ears or gouging eyes or whatever is
    how real fights go, not the classic "first you cleanly jack my jaw
    and then I'll cleanly jack your jaw" fantasy we see on the boob tube.
    
    Cool.
    
    Btw, don't think I didn't notice you backed away from your factual
    error about "throwing in the towel."
    
    MrT

    World-wide, HIV-transmission is *primarily* through hetero-sexual
    intercourse.  By a wide margin.  Women are at much higher risk of
    contracting HIV by hetero-sexual intercourse than men are.  The
    frequency of intercourse with (an) HIV infected individual(s) has a large
    bearing on the likelihood that the disease will be transmitted. 
    Contact with large numbers of sexual partners significantly increases
    the risk of contracting the virus.
    
    The point is that being exclusively heterosexual will *not* protect you
    from getting HIV.  This is the message that Magic Johnson's contraction
    of HIV is bringing to the general public - *regardless of how he
    actually contracted it*.  Odds are that he *did* get it from
    hetero-sexual activity, as he has stated.  As he is learning more about
    the contraction and transmission of the disease, he is amending his
    message to make it more accurate.  This strikes me as a *good* thing,
    not evidence of "hypocrisy", but of honesty and a willingness to learn.
    
    A&W  

                                                                 
    > This strikes me as a *good* thing,
    > not evidence of "hypocrisy", but of honesty and a willingness to learn.
                 
    Bingo, Alison.  That was a point I tried to make way back ("do the
    right thing"), but which was conveniently ignored.  I've given up on 
    MrT, though; it's obvious with this "debate" that he's just trying to 
    stir the pot with his usual disdain for decency or good taste...
    
    glenn
    
                                     

    
    RE: .378
    
    > I've "insisted" no such thing.  And if you find it old and stale butt
      out (pun fully and unapologetically intended)
    
    Pardon moi.  Didn't know that this rathole excluded my opinion.  My
    humble apologies.  I do have more to offer, but I fear T's scorn, and
    thus shall keep my thoughts to myself.
    
    Onto another topic....oh, and yes, the sarcasm is intentional.  But T,
    being 2nd to God (only He knows everything, from what I was taught) I'll
    bet you knew that......
    
    
    
    Cath
    
    

    I'd sure hate to have to moderate this!

    As The Disk Turns...
    
    The Saga Continues
    
    BG

================================================================================
Note 151.379                 Earvin 'Magic' Johnson                   379 of 395
QUASER::HUNTER "Bad_Boy of ::SPORTS"                  4 lines  16-DEC-1991 14:14
                      -< I'll next unsean for a while ! >-
                                   ^^^^^^
    
    Is that what you call it when you dump Sean Young, BG???  Big mistake
    if thou ask me.  Let those others desperately seek Roseanne, but give
    me Sean, anytime.
    
    Brews

    Cath, don't back out, T is just using his usual ploy of making
    outrageous statements in an attempt to garner attention.  I've seen it
    sooo many times, it's become boring.  
    
    Mac, you might try spitting into the wind as an alternative to trying
    to have a meaningful debate with T.  Facks are not required by him,
    just opinions.  It does get old.
    
    Anyone got the part number I need to replace my worn-out "Nexted
    Unseen" keycap?
    
    lEe

    Re: Ken Tessier -
    
    Ken - I wouldn't take the word of small obscure latino newspapers as
    gospel - when we studied news around the world, many of the smaller
    papers in smaller countries read like the "Weekly World News".
    
    JD

    I knew I was gonna get it for the little mistake !!  
    
    

    >T has to pick on ladies now
    
    I won't go into the sexism implicit in this statement, Mike.  It sorta
    stands out on its own.  But I'll disagree and say that if a woman enters
    into a debate she does so on the same footing as a man.
    
    >I do have more to offer, but I fear T's scorn, and thus shall keep
    >my thoughts to myself.
    
    But apparently not all women are willing to step up to this equality.
    It's a fact that the only one who's been scorned in this rathole is me
    and I haven't whined about it.  And given that I said nothing personal
    about you, you're whining without cause.
    
    >World-wide HIV transmission is *primarily* through hetero-sexual
    >intercourse
    
    If you have more mistakes like this to offer maybe it's better that you
    do keep these lil' nuggets to yourself.  In North America and Europe
    the vast majority of sexually transmitted HIV is through homosexual
    contact.  In Africa the reverse is true.  The gurus are puzzled by this
    and are theorizing in the scientific literature that it may be a variant
    of the virus.  Other scientitist's think it might be the stage of the
    virus' vector (it's thought that HIV has been in play in Africa longer).
    
    Maybe you're mixed up.  Maybe you're lumping in junkies and tranfusion
    recipients with the others.  NIH, which has a history of erring on the
    side of inhibition of any type of sexual acitivity, say 3% of the HIV
    cases diagnosed was putatively hetero based.  They admit they have yet
    to isolate and duplicate this transmisson here.
    
    >I've given up on MrT, though; it's obvious with this "debate" that
    >he's just trying to stir the pot with his usual disdain for the
    >decency or good taste...
    
    More scorn, which I'd enjoy if it were coming from a lEe, but *you*?
    Apparently, Waugamain, you value sensitivity and correctitude over 
    the realities of the matter:
    
    1) It's indecent and in poor taste for an athlete/celebrity of all
       people to begin delivering unsolicited lectures on sexual behavior 
       when his only expertise in the matter is his "mistake."
    
    2) It's indecent and in poor taste for an athlete/celebrity of all 
       people to begin delivering unsolicited lectures on family values
       when his only expertise in the matter is his background of total
       irresponsibility.  It's no secret that men who walk away from 
       children they sired usually do so in order to maintain access to
       sex that would be much less available as a father and a husband.
    
    3) It's indecent and in poor taste for an athlete/celebrity to be
       afforded national TV time and use it to insist that he "doesn't
       care how he's perceived" when even an objective news agency like
       Associated Press called his interview "backtracking."  AP introduced
       the word, not me, and despite Mac's protestations it's clear that
       Tragic backtracked under political pressure.
    
    4) The PR juggernaut set in motion by Tragic's self-serving hypocrisy
       has been seized on by the pro sports leagues (who in turn are in 
       partnership with the networks) to begin the process of negotiating
       mandatory HIV testing.  Mac denies this, sez it isn't proper to talk
       about such unconstitutional action until it's actually in place.  I
       disagree.  The NHL and NBA met on this.  One reason for their
       cooperation is that they're considering using a speciality law firm 
       who'll navigate them through the constitutional prohibitions faced.
    
    Funny thing, homosexuals dying but holding the line against the
    invasion of privacy and certain discrimination that mandatory testing
    portends.  Then, a stupid hypocritical self-serving athlete/celebrity
    gets the bug and all of a sudden mandatory is not only thinkable it's
    under negotiation!
    
    Way to go, Tragic.  Cain't wait til you're outed.
    
    MrT 
    
    
    It's a sad day in our sinking nation that it takes an athlete/celebrity
    to gain access to the networks (who are in partnership with 

    Mr. Hunter, I find it laughable that you lament over having to NEXT
    UNSEEN this topic, yet you continue to stink up the NFL, Bronco,
    Steeler, Raider, Oiler, Browns and other topics with your petty digs.
    
    I logged into this conference yesterday afternoon for the first time in 
    months and the first 7 notes I read are juvenile one-liner jabs at "the
    Soilers, the Stains, and the Faiders".
    
    I'd much rather read T, Mac and others discuss this topic than all the
    other crap that stinks this place up every fall.  When the annual
    football LDUCs arrive, I don't bitch.  I delete the conference.
    
    Frank Way and Mac should get co-NOTY for shutting this swill hole down
    and starting fresh.
    
    Here's looking ahead to the end of the annual football LDUC.
    
    Mark.

    >T tried to have us believe that (mandatory HIV testing in pro-sports)
    >was here.
    
    There you go again, Mac.  Is your position in this non-debate-that
    nobody-wants-to-take-part-in-but-reads-and-criticizes-writers-based-
    on-motives-and-not-substance-anyway where I'm making good points based 
    on acknowledged facts so weak that you must intentionally misquote
    me now?
    
    What I said was "it's happening again."  Notice the verb's conjunction
    and infer only from it that I said the process was underway again.  A
    very important process, IMNSHO, that softens up the masses for meekly
    accepting court decisions like the one handed down yesterday where our
    Supreme Court ruled in favor of governement requirment of drug tests
    for applicants for federal jobs with no safety or national security
    implications.
    
    MrT

    
    Since this is the note that HIV and AIDS is being discussed, anyone
    else read or hear about some allegations that the virus may have
    developed from joing-U.S. and Belgium tests on malaria cures in the
    1950's???  Something about injecting folks with monkey blood (African
    monkey blood...)  There was a blurb in the paper out here a few weeks
    ago.  Since I've seen nothing else, I assume it's nothing.  
    
    SUpposedly, inmates were used (volunteers, of course).  AIDS-type virus
    is prevalent among some species of monkeys, BTW.
    
    JD

    Fellas, MrT's problem is NOT an Opedial Complex. So lay off of him !
    
    What is T's real problem ?
    
    
    
    The worst case of penis (Magic's that is) envy that I've ever seen ...
    
    I think T is reacting in a semi-lucid jealous envy to Magic's exploits
    about women that T himself has fantasized about, so I think we all
    should be a little more forgiving of the T-man ....
    
    Doc

    
    The CIA conspiracy theory has been around for years.  Too many people
    watching SciFI movies or reading Michael Chrichton (sp?) novels.
    
    Bruce

    >Glass houses, T
    
    Touche.  But in *my* case I don't make a habit of pontificating 
    about others' motives.  As I've said all along, there's nothing
    more egregious than a mistaken correction, and for all the complaints
    about unfactuality, everything I've said is based on acknowledged
    fact.
    
    re 1
    
    May Bear, one reason for the CIA theory is the uniqueness of HIV
    in all of virology: Until HIV known viruses would proliferate at the
    time leading up to the onset of disease.  It's the opposite with HIV,
    which depopulates just prior to the onset of AIDS (source, a Harvard
    scientist who wrote a cover article for the Atlantic Monthly two years 
    ago).
    
    The monkey connection only added fuel to the fire.  One problem I have
    with all this knee-jerk derision about conspiracy theories is that we
    have seen a procession of admitted conspiracies (Iran/Contra, Bass
    brothers, Boesky/Milken, Cointelpro/Watergate) and probable conspiracies
    (JFK assasination, MLK assasination, attempted assasination of Pope).
    
    Not that I accept the conspiracy theory on AIDS, mind you.  It's nearly
    impossible to trace the origin of a new disease - microrganisms don't 
    keep records or work in front of bystanders.
    
    MrT

    Boy am I glad I didn't reply to this topic when I was first compelled
    to do so......I was tempted to add to the majority's anti-T onslaught,
    but fortunately, I stayed away...thus sparing myself the humiliation of
    attacking a man with a severe psychological problem/disorder!!!
    
    Thank you, Doc, for bringing T(irade)'s malady to the forefront of this
    discussion!!  I can't say that I understand his perspective, but it
    helps explain his mania.
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Nelly

Doc, we were talking about Bobby Knight, not T, possibly suffering
from an Oedipal complex.  That would go a long way toward explaining
how he could become so enraged that he'd chomp off a cop's ear,
pocket it, then hang the damn thing on a wall in his den, between
the rhino horn and a moose head.  Just another trophy for one very
sick basketball coach.  Never a thought about the poor, now ex, cop
walking around on the island with a dixie cup taped to the side of
his head where his hearing appendage used to be.

Laker_Ken

>    It's really not that difficult to follow T here.  Although I don't go
>    along with some of the things he mentions, I do have a problem with
>    all of this hero and role model crap forced on us, as well as Magic


You know, as in interesting little tangent here, following the broadcast
of the 1962 NFL Title game that I've mentioned elsewhere in the
file, Steve Sabol of NFL films was talking about the difference between
today and back then.

He cited for example, that Ray Nitschke went on What's My Line in the
week after the game.  The folks on the panel, unblindfolded, could
not guess what he did.

Sabol also mentioned that back in those days the media respected athletes
privacy a lot more.

I think that this "role model" thing is something that is forced on 
some athletes by a press corp that has nothing better to do.

Some athletes might make excellent role models, but not all....



sorry this didn't directly have to do with the discussion at hand....


'Saw

    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Let us review the facts:
    
    1. Tragic is a bastard sire.  He didn't marry the mother or raise
       the child.  
    
       Conclusion: He's no paragon and has no business talking about 
       family values and is hypocritical to do so.
    
    2. Tragic backtracked.  The Associated Press said so, Connie Dung
       said so.  He backtracked under pressure.  
    
       Conclusion: He's a hypocrite to insist that he doesn't care how 
       he's perceived cuz he's already exhibited just that with his 
       spineless backtracking.
    
    3. Tragic is cynically using religion as a foil.  He stated quite
       clearly that he felt having sex with women who desire it is to
       disrespect women.  He said quite clearly that doing this is 
       "immoral" and that he understands this now cuz he's "found God."
    
       Conclusion: Yeah, he found God just like the week before he found
       PCness.  The main's a self-serving political cynic, a hypocrite.
    
    4. Tragic pushed rubbers.  It's a given that "safe sex" has largely
       meant using rubbers.  But, after stinging criticism to this 
       cynical jellyfish by the strap-on crowd and the bored-agains, 
       he suddenly quit pushing rubbers and started pushing religious
       morality instead.
    
       Conclusion: I was right and you were wrong, Mac.  Reel wrong.
    
    MrT
       

    
    > The *only*
    > sentiment I can share with the popular is the "if it saves just one
    > person's life" one.  JMH(& honest)O...                  
      
    Which is Magic's stated goal.  How do you reconcile your own advocacy
    of "saving just one person's life" with "Magic appointed himself
    spokesperson and authority on HIV/AIDS and safe sex"?  On the one
    hand he's doing good by reaching people who wouldn't otherwise be
    reached, on the other he's an unabashed egotist...
    
    glenn
    

    >I thnk that this "role "model thing is something that is forced
    >on athletes
    
    No way, it's a_industrial ploy.  They do it to market their product
    and their product is people.  Briefly put, the pro leagues poison
    our educational system so that they cain get highly trained talent
    for free, and then we're insulted with the NFL's latest smarmy ad
    campaign extolling the virtues of education (and how athletic 
    programs aid in education).
    
    The athletes do it cuz the leagues tell them to, and they agree to it
    cuz the positive-but-phony-and-hypocritical spin they get from it 
    makes for higher income for everybody.
    
    And now they've ventured into sex education.  My isn't that nice.  This
    AIDS bug thing sure is skeery but it's gonna be alright cuz Lew Alcindor
    gonna come back and help us by shooting boring jump-hooks.
    
    MrT

    
    A local Detroit TV news anchor has a one-on-one discussion with
    pertinent people in the news.  He was interviewing Laimbeer whom
    most of the people outside of the Detroit area dislike immensely.
    
    Laimbeer was very candid about his relationship with his kids and
    his wife.  He also said he would like to go to a bar and have some
    real fun.  Much like 'Saw in his buddies.  He said that at this time 
    since he is in the sports spotlike and a some kids look up to him  
    (here is where the notes questioning what kid looks up to him are 
    inserted)  he can't  go out in public and really let loose.
    
    \pjb

    This "saving one person's life" crap reeks of the same ploy taken
    by the BayWhine/Stompshim/Dale Brown "heroic" stand against educ'l
    standards so "one kid cain get a education."
    
    It's the whole system that counts.  An athlete/celebrity has no
    place in the system.  The AIDS problem has been communicated ad
    naseum to every non-comatose human being in the USA.  Ignorance is
    not the most dangerous aspect of it, the fact that it's STD and
    there's no vaccine is the most dangerous part.
    
    There's been a plethora of AIDS spokepersons for several years now.
    
    Tragic's spokesperson status only adds to the cacophony, and given
    that he's exhibited confusion and a total lack of principle he only
    detracts from the credibility that the propaganda campaign had worked
    so hard to build up.
    
    MrT

    Bruce -
    
    FWIW, the article I read didn't mention the CIA once.  It said these
    were some sort of medical research - no necessarily government (i.e.
    CIA ) testst.
    
    I had heard the CIA stuff years ago.  But this was the first time I
    remember them talking about malaria research...
    
    JD

    re .414
    
    Congratulations to this main for having the courage to take a unpopular
    stand!  This debate has been stunk up by the stink of political
    correctitude, ignorance, self-censorship, and propaganda victims.  My
    kudos, Mr.414 !!  YES, you are so RIGHT, sir!
    
    MrT

    Mark,
    
     Thanks for the input... Hope you don't mind if I flush it !
    
    BG

    Re: 151.416
    
    T, are you saying that if a person realizes their mistakes and tries to
    change, they are hypocrites?

    
    Hey Mr T,   There was something in the paper over the weekend about 
    Magic coming back to play in this years All Star game.
    
    Any comments?
    
     
    
    
    

    
    	He also said that he wanted to play in the Olympics as well.
    
    B.A.

                 
>    I suppose I can reconcile this in an everyday way.  As an example, I, 
>    like probably most Americans, dislike the way the Japanese are seemingly
>    overtaking us in every way, shape,& form.  Yet, I look around my living
>    room, and everything electronic that I own is bought from the Japanese. 
>    And, the cd player that I'll be buying in the next few days will have
>    been imported from Japan.  As much as I hate what Japan is "doing to
>    us", I'm still buying their products, even when there are alternatives.
>    
>    I hope this is clear...
     
    It is clear.  Unlike MrT, you feel that the problem is Magic Johnson,
    period, not the fact that an athlete is delivering the AIDS message
    per se (and not the fact that an athlete speaking out on prevention
    is somehow a precursor to mandatory AIDS testing as MrT's wild 
    conspiracy theories suggest).  That's fine.
    
    The only problem with criticizing a spokesperson who can deliver
    the safe sex/abstinence message with the most impact (i.e. from 
    first-hand experience) is the fact that that person *necessarily* 
    had to have f*&%ed up to be in that position in the first place!  
    By definition, a person who points to himself as an example of what 
    can happen ain't gonna be a choirboy.  This is what MrT would have 
    us believe to be "hypocrisy".  I ain't buying it.  I don't believe 
    that some geek scientist citing AIDS statistics has the anywhere
    near the educational impact on the streets as something like a 
    high-profile sports personality becoming infected.  To draw a 
    parallel with the problem of drug abuse, which had more impact, 
    Ronnie Reagan's "Just Say No" campaign or Lenny Bias dropping dead 
    of an overdose one night?  Should Lenny Bias be criticized not only 
    as someone who committed a major wrong but also for becoming a 
    symbol in that battle?  If Len Bias could speak, would he be a 
    hypocrite too?
    
    glenn
    

    Magic is going to die an untimely slow death and his millions won't
    help and can't go with him. Little can be accomplished between now
    and then which will affect how any of us felt or feel about him.
    I just caught a blurb on CNN the other night. There was a meeting of
    African health officals. They stated that there are an estimated 
    6 million (did I hear that correctly?) HIV infected individuals 
    on the sub-continent. I could have fallen out of my chair.
    
    BoB

Well, I'm no expert (surely) but I know that medical science is 
experiencing breakthroughs in leaps and bounds in terms of techniques
that could be used to find a cure for AIDS.

I have a friend whose uncle is a genetic researcher up at Cornell.  Brilliant
man.  He says the hardest problem is getting stuff past the FDA and 
certified...


I hope something breaks soon, for everyone involved....


'Saw 

	MorT, you do have a flair for playing the devil's advocate.  MorT, 
by taking the unpopular stand, is at least raising some questions about 
Magic and sports in general that you'll never see rasied on the boob tube 
(with the exception of some obscure cable channel).  He's at least making 
some of you explain your feelings on the subject rather than just having 
one big group acceptance of the media hype.  And that ain't all bad folks.

				/Don

Well said, Slasher.

There's more truth (albeit ugly) in what T is saying than most of us would 
care to consider.

It is a very sad commentary that we've become more aware of and perhaps 
more energized to combat the HIV now that a very famous 6'-9" point guard 
has acquired it.   Doesn't do justice to Ryan White, Kim Bergalis, and the 
thousands of other ordinary people who've died or will die from it.
   
And while I'm at it ... don't be at all misled by what's going down in this 
country ... on the very same day that Generalissimo Bush held a ceremony 
celebrating the Bill Of Rights Bicentennial, the Supreme Court that he and 
Mr Gipless packed struck down yet another plank in that holiest of 
human documents by allowing the gubmint to enforce drug testing on its rank 
and file.    One by one, step by step, the Bill Of Rights is receding into 
history ... 

Bob Hunt

    How do deaths related to cancer, hunger, heart disease, etc. stack up
    with the number of HIV infected people?  Heart disease is still the
    number 1 killer and we don't have people protesting over lack of a
    cure.
    
    If the educational message is so effective without Magic Johnson, why
    are there so many people getting infected each day?  This is one of the
    most easily preventable of all diseases.
    
    T's arguments were starting to sound familiar.  His recent entry
    sparked my memory.  This sounds the same as his tirade against an MLB
    player who wanted to speak out against alcohol promotion.  He of course
    was a hypocrit since everyone knows that anyone that goes into
    professional sports can't possibly speak for themselves and must be a
    puppet for the owners.
    
    Like it or not folks, the celebrities of the world, be the movie stars,
    singers, or athletes, have more attention paid to them than the
    politicians, scientists, and engineers of the world.  People dump all
    over the professional athlete when he quietly takes his millions and
    enjoys them himself.  They dump all over them when they get into an
    alcohol related traffic accident or get brought up on charges of rape. 
    Now they are getting dumped on for trying to do something positive with
    their fame and their money.  They just can't win.

>and file.    One by one, step by step, the Bill Of Rights is receding into 
>history ... 


But I don't think it will.  Not as long as there are people like you
and me who would make our voices heard.

I remember seeing last weekend a thing on the Constitution.  When it
first came out there was an outcry for something like the Bill of Rights,
because the Constitution didn't have it.

Regular folks, like farmers and tradesmen made their voices heard.


We can still do that today, except that people have changed a bit.
They have gotten lazy over time.  It may seem that writing to your
Congressman is a small, insignificant thing to do, but it really does
work.

I expressed my concern over our Income Tax to my State Senator, and
I got a response, some important information, and a dialog was opened
up.  That's the key....


Perhaps I'm a naive believer in our system, but that's the finest point:

	It's OUR system, and we CAN make it work better.....


'Saw_who_still_has_hope....

    
> There's more truth (albeit ugly) in what T is saying than most of us would 
> care to consider.
  
    Magic Johnson's role in this debate is very secondary to the primary 
    "truths" that MrT would have us believe:
    
    1) By statistical inference, any American male who claims to have 
       contracted the HIV virus through heterosexual sex is a liar, even 
       where evidence of overwhelming heterosexual promiscuity exists.
    
    2) Ergo, a male who practices exclusive heterosexual sex has nothing
       to worry about.
    
    3) Advocacy of abstinence as a preventative measure is a post-facto
       rationalization and an unnecessary overreaction as follows from
       points 1) and 2).
    
    4) Anyone who disagrees with the above points is guilty of political
       correctitude and propagandizing.
    
    Sorry, but I'm *not* going to teach my kids these basic "truths" as
    espoused by MrT in this note.  Through this smokescreen of using the
    particular case of Magic Johnson (who always has and always will
    bring out different emotions in different people, which is beside
    the point), MrT's twisted message comes through loud and clear.
    Apparently quite a few people are attracted to it, too...
    
    glenn
    

    re 1
    
    Waugamain, that is the most twisted, perverted, intentional 
    misreading and misrepresentation of another's words in the
    HISTORY a this file.  And *that's* a mouthful!
    
    MrT

    >Hey Mr T,  There was something in the paper over the weekend about
    >Magic coming back to play in this years All Star game.
    >
    >Any comments?
    
    Not really.  Don't follow the NBA myself (love basketball to much to
    watch it).  I guess my only comment would be that 1) it's good to the
    extent that it demonstrates against irrational "leper fear" of those
    infected, and 2) it's bad to the extent that it will showcase maudlin
    exploitative hypocrisy on the part of Tragic, the league, the media,
    and the politicians who'll pick up on the "event's" spin.
    
    MrT

    Mr. Thomass(tm), that is the most twisted, perverted, intentional 
    misreading and misrepresentation of another's words in the
    HISTORY a this file.  And *that's* a mouthful!

    Mac, you're doing it again.  My points about Glenn Davis (below) had
    nothing to do with athletes' inability to get involved with politics.
    Only point I made was that if he's going to get all preachy with his
    bored-again politics he must withstand the hypocrisy test:
    
    1. He at the time was negotiating a huge raise to be partly based on 
       beer vending in ballparks he plays in.
    
    2. Another big part of the raise he so hungrily sought was to come 
       from beer ads on broadcasts he was featured in.
    
    3. He took the money, ergo he's a big-mouthed hypocrite.
    
    This is why the breakdown in our public discourse and indeed our social
    fabric: Most of our political teachings and opinion programming flows 
    from patent hypocrisy, which, btw, may be lost on you and Waugamain but
    isn't on our youth out there.
    
    >MrT's wild conspiracy theory...
    
    Waugamain, care to explicate this alleged conspiracy theory a mine? [no]
    
    MrT

>              -< name-calling now, are you, Heiser?  For shame. >-
    
    Something that you would never do, right Thomas?

    
>    Waugamain, that is the most twisted, perverted, intentional 
>    misreading and misrepresentation of another's words in the
>    HISTORY a this file.  And *that's* a mouthful!
     
    Glad to see that you're *backtracking* from your rhetoric, MrT!
    I knew there was hope.
    
    Everything I wrote has either been stated by you outright or suggested
    so graphically to such an extent that there's only one way a rational 
    person could take your words.  You've railed on about Magic's hidden
    homosexuality, you've regaled us with statistics and facts that show
    male heterosexual contraction has not even been proven to exist, 
    you've decried Magic for hurting the heterosexual "market" by bringing 
    up the subject of abstinence, and now you're backtracking!
    
    glenn
    
                                                     

    Gee, I thought Glenn summed things up nicely.

            
    >>MrT's wild conspiracy theory...
    
    > Waugamain, care to explicate this alleged conspiracy theory a mine? [no]
      
    Yes.  Show me your proof that Magic Johnson has entered into complicit
    engagement with those who would invade our privacy with mandatory HIV 
    testing [you cain't].
    
    glenn
    

    re: .437,
    
    Mr. T,
    
    You may be shocked to learn that Waugaman is not the only noter to
    interpret your notes as he does.  His synopsis in .436 is EXACTLY how I
    view your ravings.
    
    Not that you do or even should give a $#%^ what I think......
    
    
    HTH,
    
    Nelly

    >Show me your proof that Magic Johnson has entered into a complicit
    >engagement with those who would invade our privacy with mandatory HIV
    >testing.
    
    Why should I?  I never said such a thing.  You show ME where I've set
    forth a conspiracy theory.  You cain't, cuz I haven't.  And in failing
    to do so you're exposed as having put words in my mouth that I never
    said.  This is the worst form of rhetoric, Waugamain.  While you're 
    flubbing you might also detail exactly where I've backtracked.  It's
    easy to make a false claim, it's impossible to prove it.
    
    MrT

    Hawk -
    
    If your son had tripped over the street person with AIDS, he would not
    have contracted the disease from that contact *unless*
    	- the street person had an open sore or cut
    	- your son had an open sore, cut, or the fall caused him to get one
    	- *AND* there had been an exchange of blood between the two.
    Under the circumstances you cited, I believe that would have been very
    difficult to accomplish.  Casual, skin-to-skin contact does not cause
    transmission of the virus, and the virus dies very rapidly on exposure
    to open air.
    
    
    To whoever:
    
    Yes, the figure of 6 million in Africa with AIDs is the current
    statistic.  It is a *low* estimate.  :-(  On this continent, we really
    don't understand the devastation that massive depopulation and epidemic
    outbreak levels mean.  We haven't seen an epidemic in this country,
    really, since the 1914 flu epidemic. 
    
    
    I have also interpreted T's comments the way Glen outlined them.
    
    A&W

    The fear that someone can contract AIDS by casual contact is what is
    keeping infected kids out of schools, and causing families to be
    ostracized by their neighbors.

    So much for the idea that the current education system working is
    working just fine.

My brother works in the OR.  I've asked him at times how dangerous 
it is.

He says if they follow procedure, they're pretty safe.  If they have
a known HIV or AIDS person, they double glove, double mask, and
wear a form of safety goggles.

I guess one time they had an AIDS person on the table, and an artery
let go.  Fortunately for my brother, he turned his haid in time, and
just got hit on the back.  They immediately made him take off the gown,
and go back out and re-scrub, re-gown etc etc etc.

He says the ones you don't know about are the ones you have to worry
about, and that's usually just emergency cases....

Believe me, no one wants a cure more than these health care professionals...



'Saw

    Hawk,
    
    still, yer kid coulda caught a terrible case of fleas or crabs or
    even worse, the cooties!!!!
    
    hth,
    Kev
    

                                                 
    I retract the conspiracy claim, as I may have read too much into
    MrT's diatribes against Magic's role in this supposed PR campaign 
    to strip the general public of our rights with respect to mandatory
    testing.  The following passage only suggests that Magic is to 
    blame for complying with this effort, but not necessarily consciously:
      
>    But they'll cloak this violation of our constitutional rights with the
>    "educational" spin, and they'll use the craven Tragic to handle the PR
>    front.  Winnging smile --> losing rights.                            
    
    I stand by my four basic points, however.  If you accuse me of
    distorting your position and claim that my points don't summarize
    your position, MrT, then yes, I believe that you are backtracking:
    
    1) Homosexual "fibbing" and 2) male heterosexual transmission
    
    > Then multimillionaire
    > Magic decides to retire without a 2nd test and declares that his infection
    > proves that men can be infected with HIV through hetersexual contact,
    > something that has yet to be proven in the medical literature.

    > What to believe?  Dunno.  Maybe it so happens that Magic made medical 
    > history with his heterosexual contraction.  
    
    > Way to go, Tragic.  Cain't wait til you're outed.
    
    
    3)  Abstinence/heterosexual social circles... 
    
    > If he doesn't, he's putting a big chill on the poon market for no good
    > reason...
                                
    
    4)  Dissenting opinion...
    
    > This debate has been stunk up by the stink of political
    > correctitude, ignorance, self-censorship, and propaganda victims.  
    
    > Apparently, Waugamain, you value sensitivity and correctitude over 
    > the realities of the matter.

    
    glenn
    

    >I retract the conspiracy claim, as I may have read too much into
    >MrT's (analyses) against Magic's role...
    
    I commend you for having the Intellectual Honesty and courage to
    take this step, Glen.  We need more of that type of thing in here.
    
    I still don't get where the rest of your note shows any backtracking
    on my part, but that was only small side issue anyway.
    
    MrT
       

    HAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!
    
    MrT, that was too funny. Glenn and 1/2 of this file caught you in the
    act on THREE amjor issues.
    
    Count on you to seize on the fourth issue, and call the others minor.
    
    heh heh heh
    
    Doc

    Midnight, where did you learn to count.  Btw, I talked with my
    compututer designer buddy today and he expressed surprise that 
    you never called.  Some amibition.  Best you stick with pushing
    that myth thing.
    
    As for *you*, Heiser, so long as retractions are being bandied 
    about what about that vicious obscenity you launched my way?  Some
    Christian.
    
    But you're right, Glen does deserve a medal.  I'll pin it on him.
    Admitting he was wrong took class and courage.
    
    MrT
    

>    As for *you*, Heiser, so long as retractions are being bandied 
>    about what about that vicious obscenity you launched my way?  Some
>    Christian.
    
    What are you talking about?  I merely called you by name.

    From todays Glob:
       According to The CDC, 6% of current AIDS cases in the US result
    from heterosexual contact. Worldwide, however, the figures are much
    higher, according to the CDC, which claims that 75% of the
    international AIDS caseload results from heterosexual contact.
                                         Denny

    Well,
    
     that might add some creedance to T's ideas around how Magic 
    got Aids !!  6%,  thats a pretty small percentage !
    
    BG

    BG, the chance of dieing in a plane crash is pretty low.  You wanta
    tell the families of those killed in Locharbee Scotland that their kin
    couldn't have possibly died?

Article 2918 of clari.sports.basketball:
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (MIKE BARNES, UPI Sports Writer)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Magic's doctor draws the line
Date: 19 Dec 91 20:29:05 GMT
Priority: major


	LOS ANGELES (UPI) -- Magic Johnson practices with the Lakers and is
with them on their current road trip. He plans to play in the All-Star
Game, the Summer Olympics and possibly the playoffs.
	All this is fine with Johnson's doctor -- except the part about the
playoffs.
	David Ho, director of New York University's Aaron Diamond AIDS
Research Center, says an attempt to play in the postseason, even for a
limited time, would be detrimental to Johnson's health.
	``In his heart, he wants to play -- period,'' Ho told the Los Angeles
Times in Thursday editions. ``But I think he knows he has to take good
care of himself.
	``The physical and emotional stress (of the playoffs) would take its
toll on his immune system, which is something we're trying to preserve
as much as possible.''
	Johnson, who announced his retirement Nov. 7 while revealing he has
tested for the AIDS virus, apparently understands the situation.
	``If I played 40 minutes a game, with my will to win ... it's going
to affect me,'' he said last weekend. ``I'd rather be on this Earth for
a long time.''
	Johnson, though, is not suffering from any complications from the
antivirul drug AZT, according to Ho. He looks great; he probably could
be a major contributor to the Lakers.
	As long as Johnson feels well, he's going to be torn between wanting
to return to the court and knowing it's best he remain on the bench. For
now, he's listening to his doctor.
	Meanwhile, Johnson's wife, Cookie, has again tested negative for the
disease, according to Johnson's agent Lon Rosen. She is about three
months pregnant and she and the baby are believed out of danger.

What happens if say Magic is driving the lane and Karl Malone
elbow's him in the eye and Johnson's blood spurts all over the 
place? I can't see anyone letting him play. It seems ludicrous.
I mean isn't coming in contact with infected blood one way the
disease is transmitted? I may be naive on this but I seem to remember
a case where a nurse was spurted with AIDS infected blood and
contracted the disease. I know if I was a player and this was the
case, no offense Magic but I don't want to go near you on the
court. 


Steve

>I may be naive on this but I seem to remember
>a case where a nurse was spurted with AIDS infected blood and
>contracted the disease. 

It depends on where and how she was spurted.

Blood to skin contact will not transmit the disease unless there is an
open cut, or (possibly) a mucous membrane gets hit (eyes for example, although
this hasn't been positively proven).

My brother has been spurted with AIDS infected blood and he's still fine.
It got him in the back of the haid.  Of course, OR personnel wasted no time
in getting it washed off, and him rescrubbed.  In known cases they do
wear eye protection....


Have to hand it to those folks in the medical profession.....


'Saw

    
    It does take a certain individual to work in the medical profession.
    
    If you were an NBA/World player, would you want to risk exposure
    to the AIDS virus, albiet a slim risk?
    
    
    
    Steve

    I don't think he should be allowed to play.  
    
    JMHO
    
    BG

The Lakers are going retire #32 at halftime of the Lakers/Celtics game on 
Feb 16.  This game will be on national TV.  It's only the 5th(?) number to be 
retired by the Lakers...

    
    Actually, I was hoping he would announce his decision to play.  The
    conversations that will take place around this topic are needed, and
    will open a lot eyes to some of the issues involved.  He'll get a lot
    more backlash now though, than had he announced his intention a few
    days after the initial disclosure.
    
    Brews

              
    Are Olympic athletes pre-screened for AIDS?  If not, or if they are and
    the results are kept confidential, as far as I can see Magic has just
    as much right to play as anyone else.  What if another player became
    infected by an undisclosed player with AIDS?  Would *that* be worth it?
    
    You've got to have a policy on such things.  If the IOC has a policy 
    that claims participation does not constitute a health risk, then Magic 
    as an athlete (not a doctor or politician or rule-maker) is not 
    grandstanding or anything else.  He's doing what he wants (what he's
    dreamed of and intended to do long before anyone knew he was infected) 
    with the full endorsement of those who say it's no problem.  Those are 
    the people you should take it up with if you disagree...
    
    glenn
    

    Argh.  Now we'll have a zillion hours of Olympic coverage devoted to
    the plight of Magic.   Sorry, but I won't be able to stomach it.  It's
    bad enoughI'll have to suffer through patriotic jingoism and Charlie
    Jones (IMO, the absolute worst announcer in the world - and he does
    track and field - and he's more ignorant than a dead sea lion.)
    
    What would be real classy would be for Magic to not be part of the team
    - but perhaps be a coach (or ball boy...) - and then have one of the
    classy NBA greats give Magic his gold medal.   Now that would be classy
    - WAIT - QUICK - someone send that idea to MacDonalds - they'll love
    it!   Use it for a new promotion - get a GOLD McChocolate Olympic Snack
    with each McMagic Burger you purchase - along with an Air Shake and
    some McEwing Fries!
    
    JD

    I don't think he should play...  Were dealing with a deadly 
    viris here and if theres a 1 in 1000000 chance that someone might be
    infect then I say "Magic,  stay at home dude"
    
    Big Game Junta

          
    The Olympics are a circus with or without Magic and always have been, at 
    least in my lifetime.  If that's not the case, then why do the exact
    same events featuring the exact same athletes accomplishing the exact
    same marvelous feats in the World Championships receive little to no 
    attention but the Olympics (at least in America) have every able body
    glued to the tube?  Not saying that's bad per se, but let's not kid
    ourselves...
    
    Personally, in the modern-day age, watching the spectacle of athletes
    battling each other in a race between performance-enhancing drug
    technologies and then turning and pointing fingers when a few get
    caught totally and finally jaundiced my eye to what it's all about.
    Injecting Magic's own little health/disease issue into that filthy 
    arena almost seems appropriate to me, if anything...
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    Just out of curiosity....
    
    Magic must be taking drugs to prevent the spread of his illness.
    
    Just about every drug known to man is banned by the Olympic
    organization.... I know that is a slight exageration, but......
    
    What will they do about his medication......
    
    
    Lou

    
    I think it started going downhill in '68.  That's when I 1st remember
    politics getting involved.
    
    Brews

    This will show the Olympic Committee's motivation (i.e., $$$).  Here
    we have a guy using AZT (?) for HIV treatment.
    
    Remember when Scott Young was suspended from the Olympic Hockey games
    for using a cold medicine prescribed by the team physician?
    
    Mike

               
    > This will show the Olympic Committee's motivation (i.e., $$$).  Here
    > we have a guy using AZT (?) for HIV treatment.
    
    Let's not jump to conclusions.  The criteria for exclusion of some
    drugs by the Olympics is that they, in some form or another, aid
    or enhance performance in the normal, healthy athlete.  These include 
    some over-the-counter cold medicines that contain traces of stimulants
    (we certainly can argue about the IOC's extreme application of their
    rules to such harmless drugs).  AZT is a drug used to combat the onset 
    of AIDS that may or may not have a property that meets the criteria 
    for a ban.  My guess is, especially given the detrimental side affects 
    caused by AZT, that like drugs used in chemotherapy there's no reason 
    to include AZT amongst the banned substances.
    
    glenn
      

          
    I wasn't saying that an athlete has to be "normal and healthy" to
    compete, rather that the criterion for a drug ban is performance
    enhancement in a normal, healthy athlete.  The "normal and healthy"
    qualifier is necessary so that the distinction is made from a drug that
    "enhances performance" by making a sick person well or even by keeping a 
    person from dying (the ultimate performance enhancer, like with that
    American Greco-Roman wrestler who had cancer but beat it with
    chemotherapy and went on to win the gold).  It's obviously not the IOC's 
    intent to ban drugs that are necessary for that purpose...
    
    Hey, I don't want Magic there or any other professional basketball
    player for that matter, exactly because it contributes to this kind of
    ridiculous hype.  I'm not going to invent reasons like his use of a 
    drug normally prescribed for his disease as justification for keeping 
    him out, though.  That's obviously not the issue, nor is there any
    hypocrisy or monetary inducement on the part of the IOC for not making
    AZT an issue...
    
    glenn
      

    Wasn't Scott Young using some "off the shelf" cold medicine when
    banned?  That to me was ridiculous and I consider Magic's case much
    more severe.
    
    Mike

                                
    Why, Mike?  Because Magic maybe dies younger without the drug?  Why is
    does that information belong in the Olympic domain?
    
    What about the guy who was using powerful chemo drugs to stay alive?  
    Does the drug ban fit there, too?
    
    glenn
    

    Because the Olympic Comm. should remain consistent regardless of who is
    involved.  They laid down the law and should live with it.
    
    Unfortunately, their greed will prevail.
    
    Mike

                       
    > Because the Olympic Comm. should remain consistent regardless of who is
    > involved.  They laid down the law and should live with it.
    
    In other words, you think all drugs should be banned...
    
    How does the IOC stand to gain financially out of all of this (by
    permitting athletes with AIDS treated with AZT to participate)?  If 
    anything, I expect a large public backlash...
    
    glenn
    

    Magic playing in the Olympics will help him achieve his goal of
    educating the public about AIDS.  It will show that those with AIDS
    need not be treated like those with leprosy were.
    
    I guess we should ban basketball because that kid at Loyola-Marymount
    died of a heart attack while playing.
    
    We should probably ban the Olympics altogether because athletes will
    fly there and everyone knows that a plane could crash.  Or we could
    risk a repeat of the 1972 Olympic massacre.
    
    Mike H., the question you should ask is AZT a performance enhancing
    drug, not should Magic be banned because he is on medication.  The
    instance of a cold medication showing up on the drug tests is an
    unfortunate situation.  The guy tested positive for a banned substance. 
    Unfortunately, the IOC interprets any detection of a banned substance
    an admission to taking performance enhancing drugs.  How many times
    have we heard of people who really were taking drugs to perform better
    say that it must have been a mistake on a test or that they were under
    a doctor's care?  The few spoil it for the many.

    
    Are you guys trying to bait MrT or what ?
    
    What a masterful job you are doing 
     
    Pat

    Same with Blatnick when he had a diagnosis of Cancer at one point...

    If AZT is on the list of banned drugs - then he won't pass the drug
    test.  If it isn't - then he will be.  I doubt it's banned - because if
    it was - I'm certain the media would have reported it.
    
    The banned substances are numerous.  Remember a US swimmer was stripped
    of a gold medal for taking an astma drug (which he had been taking
    forever...)
    
    As far as the Olympics.  The really political years started in 1968. 
    In both 1972 and 1976 there were boycotts by the African nations.  In
    1980, of course, the US and other 'western' nations boycotted.  In 1984
    - the Soviets and most of the East block boycotted.  In 1984, of
    course, we had the widely hailed Ueborroth Olympics in LA, where
    corporate logos were pasted to everything.  ANd much to the delight of
    NBC, without the east block, the USA was able to simply go hog wild -
    winning golds in sports such as greco-roman wrestling that we'd never
    have a chance at.   TV coverage that year turned to an all-U.S.A affair
    - and in 1988 we were treated to coverage that consisted of a little
    bit of action followed by a lot of fluff.   Personally, I think ABC did
    a masterful job at producing the Olympics.
    
    I hope to still be out here in Seattle with Access to the canadien
    stations - the coverage of the World Track and Field CHampeenships on
    the CBC was vastly superior to anything I've ever seen on US TV.  
    Ditto for their coverage of other sports like soccer, rugby, hockey,
    etc....
    
    JD

    > Are you guys trying to bait MrT or what ?
    
    I don't think so.  MrT is a staunch defender of individual rights,
    and as such an opponent of mandatory testing for AIDS, so I wouldn't 
    expect him to be out stumping to have Olympians tossed based on such 
    grounds.  MrT, where are you?
    
    Again, I recognize the safety risk involved with the HIV virus and
    respect anyone's opinion on whether they themselves would want to be
    subjected to that risk in various activities, however infinitesimal 
    the risk.  What I object to is the gratuitous Magic-bashing and all of 
    the other related aspersions cast at his motivations and those of 
    whoever he aligns himself with, regardless of cause.  In the case of 
    the Olympics, this isn't about Magic.  Before Magic's infection became 
    publicly known, the Olympics had a policy on HIV and AZT.  That policy 
    hasn't changed.  So how are Magic and the Olympics then hypocrites?
    
    glenn 
    

    Did/does the Olympics organizing committee have an AIDS policy?  If so,
    does anyone know what it is/was?
    
    My guessing is that they *don't* have a policy, and Magic's
    participation will be the catalyst to having them develop one.  The
    Olympics committees aren't exactly pro-active when it comes to
    addressing larger social issues which impact the games.  I also wonder
    whether the developed policy will apply to this year's games, or will
    only be applied to future ones.
    
    A&W

    cancer is can not be spread from one person to another by any means.
    it's not the same as HIV.
    
    

    
    I agree with Glenn. Although I would like to see Magic give it 
    a go in the Olympics, I just don't think the risk of another 
    player becoming infected warrants it. In this way, I feel it's
    Magic who is being selfish, he should know that there is a risk
    involved, albeit a slight one, and should step aside. It's risk
    taking that got him in this to begin with.
    
    JMHO,
    Steve

I hope this comes out right, because I don't want it to sound
bad or disparaging to this overall discussion:


Here we are, sitting around in our normal manner, debating this huge
issue over whether Magic Johnson should play in the Olympics, because
he has the HIV virus.

Folks, when you come right down to it, the chances of someone getting
the HIV virus from Magic on the hoops court in Barcelona are very
small potatoes compared to what an EMT in New York City faces every
time he or she picks up a gunshot wound victim, or other person 
in distress.


There's bigger fish to fry.  Magic and the Olympics really isn't the
issue.  I don't think you're gonna catch the virus from Magic's
sweat, and I don't think Magic will be biting anyone.  Cuts are possible,
but I think that there's a helluva lot more chance of getting cut
in a rugby match than in hoops.

If Magic was a boxer, then maybe you could make a case.  But he's a hoops
player.


And bottom line, there's just as good a chance that one of the other
American (or French or Russian or Spanish or Italian) hoops players is
carrying around the HIV virus.....


I think we're belaboring the point....


But please don't let me stop you from debating...8^)

'Saw

If Magic were disallowed to play, then any HIV+ athlete would not be allowed to 
play if the IOC were to remain consistant.  What about any HIV+ speed skaters, 
archers, skiers, figure skaters, runners, etc. who do not come into contact 
with other athlete while playing??

Also, and someone made this point earlier, I think such a policy would have an 
impact on athletes who contract the virus and debate whether or not to go 
"public" with it.  How many might try to hide it and compete anyway??  Once 
athletes do that, any risks are not lessened and the negative stereotypes 
around the virus will be incubated.  

I say don't ban him because of he's HIV+.  The fact that he's a pro, well 
that's another matter...

Scott

PS - Side question - does anyone know what Magic's official status is with the 
Lakers??  Does he still get his full salary as if he were injured, or is he on 
some kind of retirement pension?

         RE: -2

             You are right on Saw! Getting aids from Magic by sweat...no
    way...by a cut (unless your drinking it)...no way...by a cut to cut...
    unless your an Eskimo and rubbing bloody noses together...no way!!!


             You couldn't put the risk factor even in the .00x range. The
    only problem I have with him playing is the Olympics should not be a
    forum for AIDS. I have no problem watching commercials about AIDS, for
    Condoms to protect you from AIDS or from Magic Johnson himself. It is
    a Basketball game and should be just that and only that. If you have
    Magic play then it will not be a basketball game and it will unfairly
    take someone else off this team who is deserving to play on it. 

              Yes the Olympics have been a Media circus for quite awhile
    but lets not make it an AIDS circus now also. The sports and AIDS
    should be talked about separately not during the games themselves.

                                                   Night Flier   ~~v~~

>    no way...by a cut (unless your drinking it)...no way...by a cut to cut...
>    unless your an Eskimo and rubbing bloody noses together...no way!!!
    
    NF,
    
    Please site sources of your research.  I'd be interested as to where
    you came by such definite knowledge.
    
    	--dan'l

    re .500 
    
    > .... bite the bullet ...
    
    Hawk, did you know that you can get AIDS by getting shot by a bitten
    bullet by an AIDS-infected gunman ? 
    
    :-)
    
    Doc

    I saw the smiley face in Doc's reply, but, kidding or not it does help
    perpetuate some of the myths.  
    
    There has been no evidence to suggest that HIV can be transmitted via
    saliva.
    
    Hawk, I'd say there is a bigger chance of you being shot by a robber at
    your bar than there is of an Olympic basketball player being infected
    by Magic Johnson.

    So Hawk, are you going to give up bartending and frequenting this risky
    establishments?

    
    Tonight on the 6 o'clock evening news.  Haverhill street gang's mint
    and lollypop heist thwarted by lush and barmaid friend.  Tune in.
    

    Each nation's Olympic Comitee is supposed to supply a list of athletes 
    and medications they are taking before the games start.  Some athletes
    suffer from asthma, high blood pressure, etc.  Some of those medications 
    have traces of stuff that could enhance your performance if taken in 
    bigger quantities.  They know your medication so if they test you they 
    know approximately the amounts you should have in your system.  The key 
    is that they need to know before the test is done and no excuses are 
    allowed.
    
    Jose

Hawk, 

I'm proud of you.  You can play rugby on my team ANYTIME....


'Saw

    I wanna party witchoo...

RE: -501


>    no way...by a cut (unless your drinking it)...no way...by a cut to cut...
>    unless your an Eskimo and rubbing bloody noses together...no way!!!
    
    NF,
    
    Please site sources of your research.  I'd be interested as to where
    you came by such definite knowledge.
    
    	--dan'l

     Dan'l:  

         I base it on AIDS literature that has come from sources such as
    the AIDS foundation, noted Doctors in AIDS research (sorry I don't have
    names), and what I've seen in papers and on television. I have reviewed
    much of it as I am concerned about AIDS and contracting it just as much
    as I am sure it concerns you and most of our population. Based on what
    I've read and heard (mind you I'm basing it on what has been said and
    that is the best I can go with) AIDS is contacted through bodily fluids
    such as blood and semen. They have not come up with any cases with saliva
    so it seems those are the only possible 2 avenues of contracting the
    disease. That means sexual contact (gay or heterosexual), drug use (due 
    to swapping of AIDS tainted needles from AIDS infected needles), 
    transfusions (which is now minimal,(although possible) due to better 
    screening of blood supplies), and last only a couple of cases due to 
    direct contact from a Doctor or Dentist who has cut him self while working 
    on a patient at the same time. In the Dentist case it is not known if the 
    blood being ingested is the cause or if the patient's teeth were bleeding 
    when his blood came in contact with the patient's teeth. I have not heard 
    of any cases and I think someone stated quite a few back in this 
    conference that once blood has come in contact with the air for a couple 
    of seconds that it changes it's properties. I suppose if you were bleeding 
    and Magic (for instance) was bleeding at the same time and you rubbed 
    your cuts together for a little while you might get the virus but as far 
    as I know there have not been any cases saying for certain that this has
    happened or is even possible. If someone with the AIDS virus is playing
    basketball (for instance), and it is known he has the AIDS virus, and
    he cuts himself, I would think common sense would take over and he
    would stop playing at that point or be stopped from playing and the
    bleeding taken care of at that point before he could continue. life
    has no for certain's but knowing how you can be infected by the AIDS
    virus I feel you have a 100% better chance of getting Cancer than
    acquiring the AIDS virus if you take precautions! The biggest thing of
    course is that there is no cure or stopping AIDS once you have it
    right now but your chances with Cancer are better based on a possible
    cure (although not all the time either).

                                                   Night Flier   ~~v~~

>    I have not heard 
>    of any cases and I think someone stated quite a few back in this 
>    conference that once blood has come in contact with the air for a couple 
>    of seconds that it changes it's properties. 
    
    That was me, which is why I called you on...
    
>    by a cut to cut...
>    unless your an Eskimo and rubbing bloody noses together...no way!!!
    
    ...because "no way" is a long way from...
    
>    I suppose if you were bleeding 
>    and Magic (for instance) was bleeding at the same time and you rubbed 
>    your cuts together for a little while you might get the virus 
    
    Please, everyone, think before intering notes.  Night Flier obviously
    has done the research I have and just got caught up in noting rhetoric
    and presented opinion as fact.
    
    	--dan'l

    Hmmm.... Harvard had to cancel their world-wide AIDS conference
    because the US Government would not let AIDS infected people
    enter the country... BUT I guess its OK to send OUR AIDS infected
    people to the Olympics... 
    
    Makes sense to me!!!!!
    
    REK

        Dan'l:

           I'll give you the earlier statements as "no way" were on the
    outside edge and not fact. I should have rephrased that properly.
    Obviously there is no given that you cannot get Aids by blood to blood
    contact right next to the skin of another person. So far there has been
    no confirmed reports of that happening.

           What I was more trying to impress was that contracting of the 
    AIDS virus through that particular action is extremely small if not
    impossible from what is known at this time. No one should panic or be
    concerned as long as the proper precautions have been and are taken.

           Thanks Dan'l for having me rephrase the statement properly as
    I will agree it was not explained properly originally by myself.

                                                   Night Flier   ~~v~~

    Anyone see a problem with Magic playing in the NBA All-Star game?  I
    heard he said he was gonna play.
    
    Isn't the team based on some sort of selection, like, votes?  Or, is
    Magic nominating himself and damn the process?
    
    If he DIDN'T make this statement, then my apologies.
    
    Lee

       Stern decided to add an 'extra' slot to the West roster for Magic.
                                     Denny

    Magic is one of the top vote getters in the fan ballotting.  He might
    just win a spot on the All Star team without the help of the commish.

    I don't agree with this either.  You should earn (play) your way to the
    All-Star game.
    
    What handout is this guy going to get next?!

    
    	Probably death Mike.  

    Again, Mike, it all comes down to what an All-Star game is.  All-Star
    games and All-Pro teams were intended to be for high quality of play
    during the current season.  Instead, they are becoming more for one's
    performance over a career.  Fan voting builds in a bias towards players
    who have been around for a long time and against new, high quality
    players who may be playing better than Joe Veteran.  The other bias
    with fan voting is that they vote for 1.  Who they want to see 2.  The
    hometown hero or 3.  The familiar name.  Michael Jordan could probably
    still make the NBA All-Star game in his wheelchair when he's 90, if you
    leave it up to the fans.
    
    In Magic's case, I personally don't care one way or another whether he
    plays or not since as I've stated many times, I don't especially care
    about All-Star games or Halls of Fame.  He is a leading vote getter. 
    Whether he deserves to have gotten all those votes is another matter
    but that's going to happen for as long as fans have the vote.  (I
    personally believe that an All-Star game should be for current season
    performance and not for performance over the course of a career but the
    system doesn't agree with me).
    
    Under the current system, I don't think Magic is asking for a handout
    because 1.  Given the way the system really works as opposed to the way
    it should work, he has earned it.  2.  He is a leading vote-getter and
    3.  Stern says he'll add an additional slot to the West roster so
    someone else who would have made it had Magic not played won't get
    bumped.
    
    I also think the rigors of playing one game in which no one really is
    out to kill the other team (it's more funsies than series ball) won't
    do him any harm.
    
    John

    I guess when I go to my next Suns game, I'll ask everyone to vote for
    Matt Sewell as a write-in candidate!

    This is an All Star game and Magic Johnson is one of the biggest stars
    the NBA ever had.  I don't see any hypocrisy here.

    ...but he hasn't played a regular season game yet this season!

    
    How about the fact that he isn't an active player.
    
    
    

              
    I don't think Magic should play either, but only because (as opposed to
    the Olympics) I don't understand what good it accomplishes for him or
    anyone else.  Rather than for the honor Magic might feel in doing
    something he's always dreamed of doing, this would seem to be strictly
    an AIDS awareness publicity move that might indeed detract from the 
    NBA's All-Star game (if that's possible).  He's played in ten of these 
    meaningless exhibitions before; what's the point?  It's not really an
    appropriate forum for the other stuff...
    
    Mike, your comment about yet another "handout" for Magic was predictable. 
    What ever happened to compassion?  Why are you so cynical about his
    motives?  As was hinted at, exactly why would a man with a death sentence 
    bother with the things that Magic is doing?  Money?  Fame?  What's to gain?
    
    One of the things that Magic was taking a lot of heat for in here earlier 
    was his role as supposed self-appointed role model and spokesperson on 
    AIDS, because it's apparently considered excessively hypocritical for a 
    man with AIDS to actually talk about the lesson he learned so that others
    might not have to.  Well, as it turns out, over the last few weeks I've
    been reading that the NBA and Converse will indeed re-direct their AIDS
    awareness efforts away from Magic and will employ other NBA stars to 
    carry the ball instead, including your (Mike) nominee for role model, 
    Kevin Johnson.  I sincerely hope none of these gentlemen use that dirty 
    little "c" word in their educational advertisements because I wouldn't 
    want to see any more heroes tarnished...
    
    glenn
    

    Maybe this is the fans' and Stern's way of giving Magic an official
    farewell party since he didn't have the luxury of doing a farewell tour
    like Dr.J and Kareem.

>    Mike, your comment about yet another "handout" for Magic was predictable. 
    
    sorry, forgot you were psychic too.
    
>    What ever happened to compassion?  Why are you so cynical about his
>    motives?  As was hinted at, exactly why would a man with a death sentence 
    
    I wouldn't have a problem with it if he earned it this year.  I don't
    believe anyone should get something for nothing.  They're already
    retiring his jersey later this month, what more tibute does he need?
    No other retiree has been given this free honor.
    
>    bother with the things that Magic is doing?  Money?  Fame?  What's to gain?
    
    He obviously enjoys the attention and needs it for his new role as
    spokesperson.
    
    Mike

    Earning the award has to do with being the leading vote-getter among
    the fans.  You and I both believe that making the All-Star game should
    be for achievement during the current season (in reality, half-season)
    and not for lifetime service.  We are in a minority because the fans
    feel otherwise and have so indicated with their vote.
    
    As an All-Star game was originally (and should be) defined, it's just
    as absurd for Larry Bird, Tom Chambers and Dee Brown to have high vote
    totals too, but as it's currently defined, there ain't much we can do
    about it.
    
    John

    
    What's wrong with telling the President how to do his job?  That's the
    duty and responsibility of every American.
    
    I heard about the letter that you referred to, Hawk.  Magic did indeed
    tell Bush that he wasn't doing enough and hasn't shown enough
    commitment.  I commend him for that.  It says to me that he isn't just
    to play the part of a puppet on this AIDS Commission he's been
    appointed to, even though it's doubtful he'll have any impact.  Bush's 
    response was one more of a political and non-offensive nature; something 
    like Magic's comments were "constructive" and would be given "full 
    consideration".
    
    glenn
      

>    No?  Didn't Kareem and Dr.J make All Star appearances in their final
>    season despite the fact that they were definitely on the downside of
>    their careers and were clearly there for sentimental reasons?  It's
    
    ...but they played in at least 80% of their games that year prior to
    the big event!
    
    I agree with John Hendry too.  According to the vote tallys thus far,
    the NBA fan doesn't know squat about the NBA.  
    
    - Tom Chambers is shooting barely over 40% from the floor (for the 
      second year in a row) and doesn't deserve it.  He's not even the 2nd
      best forward on Phoenix!
    - Mark West 60K votes ahead of Andrew Lang and he doesn't even start for 
      Phoenix, Lang does!
    - John Stockton should have a much higher vote total.
    - Duckworth is not the 3rd best center in the West.
    - Dee Brown hasn't played a game either this season.
    
Tue Jan 07 12:33
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NBA EASTERN CONFERENCE ALL-STAR VOTING
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GUARDS                               VOTES
------                               -----
Michael Jordan, Chicago            287,602
Michael Adams, Washington          176,585 
Reggie Miller, Indiana              91,924 
Isiah Thomas, Detroit               85,081 
Kenny Anderson, New Jersey          82,813 
Dee Brown, Boston                   69,293 
John Paxson, Chicago                68,691 
Mark Jackson, New York              50,760 
Johnny Dawkins, Philadelphia        50,578 
Joe Dumars, Detroit                 49,416 

FORWARD
-------
Charles Barkley, Philadelphia      339,979 
Larry Bird, Boston                 283,496 
Scottie Pippen, Chicago            141,834 
Chuck Person, Indiana               94,349 
Detlef Schrempf, Indiana            88,133 
Horace Grant, Chicago               68,250 
Larry Johnson, Charlotte            60,949 
Derrick Coleman, New Jersey         57,809 
Dale Ellis, Milwaukee               50,466 
Dennis Rodman, Detroit              48,636 

CENTERS
-------
Patrick Ewing, New York            165,366
Pervis Ellison, Washington         129,672 
Moses Malone, Milwaukee            125,217 
Sam Bowie, New Jersey              117,535 
Brad Daugherty, Cleveland          114,948 
Bill Cartwright, Chicago            47,754 
Bill Laimbeer, Detroit              41,292 
Rony Seikaly, Miami                  8,370 
Robert Parish, Boston                7,232 
Blair Rasmussen, Atlanta             6,404 
    
Tue Dec 31 10:56
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NBA WESTERN CONFERENCE ALL-STAR VOTING
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GUARDS                               VOTES
------                               -----
Clyde Drexler, Portland            299,587 
Magic Johnson, L.A. Lakers         237,915 
Tim Hardaway, Golden State         135,486 
Jeff Hornacek, Phoenix             123,835 
Kevin Johnson, Phoenix             121,810 
Mitch Richmond, Golden State        90,027
Rolando Blackman, Dallas            54,783 
John Stockton, Utah                 52,789 
Ron Harper, L.A. Clippers           46,422
Derek Harper, Dallas                43,222

FORWARD
-------
Tom Chambers, Phoenix              177,119 
Chris Mullin, Golden State         173,269 
Dan Majerle, Phoenix               168,237
Karl Malone, Utah                  164,547
Billy Owens, Golden State          110,268
Jerome Kersey, Portland             92,016
Shawn Kemp, Seattle                 70,623
Tony Campbell, Minnesota            45,918 
Sean Elliott, San Antonio           38,052
Terry Cummings, San Antonio         36,432 

CENTERS
-------
Dikembe Mutombo, Denver            137,258
Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston           108,790
Kevin Duckworth, Portland          102,427 
David Robinson, San Antonio         90,811
Benoit Benjamin, L.A. Clippers      63,033
Vlade Divac, L.A. Lakers            61,412
James Donaldson, Dallas             43,467
Mark West, Phoenix                  36,421
Mark Eaton, Utah                    21,326
Felton Spencer, Minnesota           20,017 

    re teh all star game.
    
    Let him play.  Since they are adding a spot - he's not taking a spot
    away from anyone.
    
    FWIW, Mr. Jordan has stated that he, Pippen, and Grant should be on the
    all-star game.  So expect Horace Grant to be on the team.  Part of
    Jordan's reasonings:  when the Celtics were champs, they had 3 guys on
    the all star team.
    
    JD

    
  >>  FWIW, Mr. Jordan has stated that he, Pippen, and Grant should be on the
  >>  all-star game.  So expect Horace Grant to be on the team.  Part of
  >>  Jordan's reasonings:  when the Celtics were champs, they had 3 guys on
  >>  the all star team.
    
      What does this have to do with Magic Johnson ? Furthermore are
      you saying Mike has that kind of clout ? And are you saying that
      Horace Grant doesn't belong ? Could it be that Mike's just trying
      to patch things up With Horace ? Is the fact that the Celtics once
      had three players part of his reasoning why Horace should be on or 
      an example of another team that had three and therefore shouldn't
      inhibit Chicago from having three (BIG difference) ?
    

    re .531`
    
    Hawk, sounds like he's telling Bush to pull his head out of flatware
    recepticale, and stop paying lip service to the AIDS war.

    Tommy B -
    
    Since all-star vote tally's were being discussed - I figured I'd add
    the latest from Mr. Jordan.  Not bashing.  With Jackson as coach, Grant
    will probably be named.   But, the Jordan quote that I saw seemed to
    say that since the Celts used to get 3 - then the Bulls should.  
    
    JD

 But we all know that the big three from the Celtics earned it. Where's
 Larry Bird getting all his votes from? Can't be ballot box stuffing otherwise
 Parrish would have more than a paltry 7K.

 Mac, are you asking me to talk Politics again???  ;^)

 mike

                                           
    > "And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they
    > give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire.  Go not from house to
    > house."  - Luke 10:7 KJV
    
    That looks like an instruction to those capable of supporting
    themselves but who yet would ask of another, not to those who are
    asked of (Mark's comment was directed at you, not Magic).  I'm sure 
    you could cite numerous passages where Christ himself gave "something 
    for nothing", purely out of goodwill.
    
    Frankly, I don't see how this relates to Magic's participation in an
    All-Star game.  If Magic were really acting as a no-account sloth in
    all of this, I'm sure someone would see fit to turn him away.  The
    reality is that not only do a heck of a lot of fans want to see him
    play, but those associated with the NBA have welcomed him with open 
    arms, in my opinion out of genuine appreciation and love...
    
    glenn
     

I really don't see what the big deal is.

For years, Magic was a star of the game.  It has been said that he
and Larry Bird rejuventated the NBA and made it a big draw.  I would
agree with that somewhat.

Now the man has retired suddenly, and didn't have the opportunity that
Kareem, Dr J and undoubtedly Larry Bird will have upon retiring, to
do a Farewell Tour.

The commissioner created a special spot for him on the All-Star team.
Big deal.  

If Magic were playing, chances are that he'd easily have enough votes to
play in the game.


If this were an "All Best Player in the Game This Year" game, then I'd
say NO, it's not appropriate.  But the fact is that any All-Star game
that involves fan voting is a popularity contest, and is meaningless
anyway.

The NBA is paying a tribute to a man who put a lot into the game.



I mean, this stuff gets debated as if it were really important, as if
it made a difference, and as if we could change anything anyway....


'Saw

    Frank said what I've always been trying to say, but in a different way
    (no pun intended).  We are all probably more hard-core sports fans than
    99.9% of the people who vote for All-Star teams.  We see All-Star games
    as what they were truly meant to be, honoring those players who are
    good in the current season.  Because many of us play some sort of
    fantasy league sports, we are all probably more in tune with who truly
    deserves to go than most of the voters are.  In other words, we're
    smarter than they are.  :-)
    
    I gave up worrying a long time ago who got picked because I realized
    the system as currently designed had other priorities than mine.  It is
    designed as a promotional gimmick for picking an exhibition game, pure
    and simple.  As I thought about it, I began to understand the built-in
    biases towards the players who got picked and once I did, I stopped
    caring.
    
    Whether we like it or not, the voice of the people has decreed that
    they want to see Magic in the All-Star game.  Great.  Let him play. 
    Who does it hurt and what does it matter?  I think we all agree that he
    doesn't deserve to play if you go on performance in the current season
    but that ain't the criteria (and may never have been, since Babe Ruth,
    who was in the downside of his career when the Baseball All-Star game
    was started, played in the first 2) and I can accept that.  
    
    The All-Star game should be enjoyed for what it is, an exhibition, and
    shouldn't be taken seriously.
    
    John

 Will Isiah be there to kiss him?

 ;^)

 mike

 ps. He should definately play. No if and or buts. The man and a certain other
 unnamed deity saved the NBA. What they really ought to do is have him play
 one half with East and one with West...

    Re: Mark, Hawk
    
    I don't see what this has to do with Sports or Magic, but so be it...

                                
    Before this gets completely out of hand, I just want to state that in
    no way was I trying to be critical of Mike's beliefs, but rather was
    offering my own interpretation on the source of his commentary on human
    compassion.  While I admit that Magic has made some serious, immoral
    mistakes in his life, I do honestly believe (perhaps naively) that 
    right now he is not a fraud and is acting out of sincerity and goodwill, 
    and as such is worthy of that compassion.
    
    glenn
    

    Anyway, how 'bout dem Rangers!?
    
    Mark.

    Mark -
    
    There's still plenty of time to hop on the Rangers bandwagon!  Just
    repent the past sins of BroonsLust and say 3 "MarkMessier is the
    Messiah".
    
    JD

    re .551
    
    Unnamed deity ?
    
    James Worthy ? Julius Erving ?
    
    Why thanks Mike. I knew you'd come around !

    heck some of us have been on the Rangers bandwagon since the early
    1970's, why oh why did Ratelle have to break hi leg at the end of the
    1972 season!
    
    back to the topic at hand. Magic has the second most votes at guard
    which normally means he would start. Good move to create a spot for him
    on the team.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Eh, let him play, what's it gonna hurt.  If you don't like that he
    qualifies as a top vote getter, take it out on the fans, not on Magic.
    Or David Stern, Magic said the honor is nice, but it's up to Stern.
    What's Magic supposed to say, "No"?  If the fans want it, give it to
    him.
    
    Rip into them for having Dee Brown and Kenny Anderson way ahead of
    guys like Joe Dumars while you're at it.  But you can't blam(tm)
    Magic for it, he's not stuffing the box.
    

    
   >> But you can't blam(tm) Magic for it, he's not stuffing the box.
    
      Talk about a hanging curve ball.
    

    HAAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    After the LA Crips line - you are the runaway leader in NoTY '92 !

    Hanging curve ball... nah, that one's too easy too...

Article 3275 of clari.sports.basketball:
Path: shodha.enet.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!uunet!lll-winken!looking!clarinews
From: clarinews@clarinet.com
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball,clari.sports.misc,clari.sports.top
Subject: Aussie doctor warns Olympians of 'small' risk Magic Johnson presents
Keywords: basketball, men's professional, olympics, misc sports
Message-ID: <oly-australia-magicU2JN420ae@clarinet.com>
Date: 23 Jan 92 09:15:31 GMT

	ADELAIDE, Australia (UPI) -- The chief doctor for Australia's Olympic
teams said Thursday he intends to warn his nation's basketball players
there is a ``small element of risk'' if they compete against U.S.
Olympic hopeful and AIDS virus carrier Earvin ``Magic'' Johnson.
	One Australian player said he would forfeit a chance for a gold medal
rather risk being infected by Johnson, who in November retired from the
Los Angeles Lakers after disclosing that through heterosexual activity
he was infected with the virus that leads to AIDS.
	In an interview with United Press Interational, Dr. Brian Sando said
any player who felt ``uncomfortable'' playing against an HIV-infected
person could decide not to play and ``no action will be taken against
them.''
	``There is a small element of risk involved,'' Sando said. ``If we
didn't point this out we would not be acting responsibly.''
	Sando denied newspaper reports that he had called for a boycott
against games in which Johnson plays.
	``We know basketball is not strictly a body-contact sport, but
lacerations do occur. It would need blood from an infected player to get
into an open wound of another player and this risk is very small,
indeed. But there is a risk, however minimal, and this could be a risk
they don't wish to take,'' Sandor said.
	The deadly acquired immune deficiency syndrome, or AIDS, is
contracted mainly by an exchange of bodily fluids during sexual activity
and unsanitary use of hypodermic needles. Health experts say becoming
infected through ``casual'' contact is a virtual impossibility.
	Johnson, one of the National Basketball Association's greatest
players, continues to work out and says he will remain on the U.S.
Olympic basketball team and play this summer at the games in Barcelona,
Spain.
	Local newspapers said several prominent Australian players had
expressed concern over the possibility of playing against the 32-year-
old Johnson.
	``If it was a choice of playing for gold or staying off and playing
for silver, I'd take silver,'' said center Ray Borner of the Adelaide
Boomers. ``I would have thought that in any contact sport anybody HIV
positive would basicaly not play. It's common sense.
	``I've been involved in a lot of games where people have been
bleeding,'' Borner said. ``Even if they have to leave the court, the
initial contact could be enough to get infected. It's a long shot, but
it's possible.''
	Boomers coach Adrian Hurley said the decision to play against Johnson
was ``entirely up to the player to make a responsbile, informed
decision.''
	Long serving Boomers captain Phil Smyth said: ``As long as medically
I'm in no danger from contracting the disease, that's really all I'd be
concerned about.''
	``If medically they can prove that, then I'd have no problem playing.
''

Article: 3280
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (WILLIAM D. MURRAY)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball,clari.news.top
Subject: Australian doctor's comments draw ire
Date: 23 Jan 92 23:53:51 GMT
 
 
                    _U_n_i_t_e_d_ _P_r_e_s_s_ _I_n_t_e_r_n_a_t_i_o_n_a_l
	The dark shadows of fear and ignorance that once haunted young AIDS
victim Ryan White's every step paid a visit to newly-named NBA All-Star
Earvin ``Magic'' Johnson Thursday.
	Johnson, who was forced to retire from professional basketball last
fall after testing positive for the HIV virus, found himself the target
of an attack by Dr. Brian Sando, the Australia Olympic Committee's team
doctor.
	Sando claimed that athletes playing against Johnson at the 1992
Barcelona Summer Olympic Games risked being exposed to the deadly
disease.
	In response to Sando's statements, members of the Australian Olympic
team have expressed concern about any contest against the United States
involving Johnson if they were to advance to the medal round of the
Summer Games.
	While Sando called his remarks the responsible thing to do, his
conclusions drew ire from AIDS researchers and activists across the
country and from the leaders of the American sports community.
	``We see this thing pop up year after year,'' said Dr. Mervyn
Silverman, president of the American Foundation for AIDS Researchers. 
``Whether it's kids going to school or athletes playing in the Olympics,
it's the same old prejudices rearing their ugly head.''
	White, who died in 1990, was barred from his Indiana school near
Kokomo in 1985 and ostracized by many hometown classmates and their
parents. The teenager fought a highly publicized court battle for the
right to attend school, which he eventually won, and drew the support of
many celebrities, including pop singers Michael Jackson and Elton John.
	Silverman said he was surprised that the remarks came out of
Australia, a country that has had an extensive AIDS awareness campaign.
	``I'm rather surprised something like this has come out of Australia,
'' Silverman said. ``They have been very active in their education
campaign. But I don't want to point fingers, these kinds of things
happen all the time here in the United States.''
	The Los Angeles AIDS project released a statement saying Sando's
remarks were another example of uninformed discrimination.
	``This recommendation serves only to spread fear and panic, emotions
that have been detrimental to the efforts of AIDS educators and those
trying to prevent the spread of HIV infection,'' the statement said.
	Chris Mullin, an All-Star with the Golden State Warriors and a member
of the 1992 Olympic basketball team, said he had no fear of playing with
Johnson in the next month's All-Star Game in Orlando, Fla.
	``As far as I know, you can't get it that way,'' Mullin said. ``I
think it's great he's going to be there.''
	Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, the NBA's all-time leading scorer and a former
Johnson teammate was more critical of the Australian team's position. 
``The attitude that they exhibit is based on fear and paranoia and not
on the facts,'' said Abdul-Jabbar.
	Acquired immune deficiency syndrome is contracted mainly by an
exchange of bodily fluids during sexual activity and unsanitary use of
hypodermic needles. Health experts say becoming infected through 
``casual'' contact, like a basketball game, is virtually impossible.
	``Most of them (the Australian players) are probably leading lives
that put them more at risk for getting HIV infection than playing
basketball with Magic Johnson,'' said Dr. Sylvia Silver, a pathologist
and AIDS expert at George Washington University Medical Center in
Washington, D.C. ``The person would have to inject themselves with the
blood of Magic Johnson in order for the person to possibly be infected.''
	The NBA also defended Johnson's right to play, naming him to the
Western Conference starting lineup in the All-Star Game.
	``The fans have clearly expressed their desire to see Magic play in
the All-Star Game again,'' said NBA Commissioner David Stern. ``We have
consulted with league medical advisers and with Magic's doctors and have
been assured that Magic's competing in the All-Star Game should not pose
any health risk to Magic or the other participants.''
	The U.S. Olympic Committee, likewise, defended Johnson's selection to
its team and stood by his right to play in Barcelona.
	``The position of the USOC remains solidly behind Magic's
participation as a member of the U.S. olympic basketball team in
Barcelona,'' said USOC spokesman Mike Moran. ``The physicians that are
associated with the USOC are unanimous in their view that the risk of
transmission of HIV in basketball is zero.''

I saw an interview with a mamber of the Autralian team the other night...

He said that the risk, no matter how small was still there and was very real.
"It's not like catching a cold"

If these players have legitimate fears they should be allowed to not play in
the match vs. the US. If they can't field a team because they have too many 
players that would rather not play then they should forfeit. 

Nobody is holding a gun to their heads asking them to play. It's a decision each
individual has to make for themselves.

But they should be allowed to make the decision as individuals....


Metz

    
                                                       
    I think the article should be labled as "News Commentary" especially
    with the introductory line  "" the dark shadow etc..."  .  Although
    the risk is very very small, there is a risk.   
    
    Players who decide not to play, or doctors who feel there is a risk
    should not be labled as ignorant or paranoid.  Its a contact sport, the
    risk exists and its up to the participant to decide.  
    
    Pat
    
    
    

     
    > Sure, we in here know better, but will that group of
    > naive and highly impressionble teenagers who are one of the ones who
    > stand higher risks of infection know better after reading these
    > "rebuttals"?  They need to be educated to the point of scariness, not
    > all of a sudden led to believe that it's not *that* serious...
      
    That doesn't fly, Hawk.  No matter what you think of Magic's
    participation (and there are some good personal responsibility
    arguments against it-- Magic's responsibility to guarantee the 
    safety of all versus that of his opponents'), no one is making light 
    of the AIDS virus by empatically stating that it can't be transmitted 
    by casual or normal non-sexual contact.  If you want to educate through
    fear like that, the best way to do it would be to say "no contact
    whatsoever, quarantine".  And that's exactly what the health experts
    are working against.
    
    glenn
                 

    Has anyone explained to the Australian basketball team that there is a
    risk of their plane crashing into the ocean on route to Barcelona?  The
    risk is small, but it is a risk.

Good news on the HIV front.  Word is that they've successfully tested an
innoculation on monkeys.  Good thing too.  It's tough trying to convince those
monkeys to wear condoms.

j.

    
    Granted, the risk of mixing blood playing basketball is not all that
    high, but I've seen Barkley come off the floor with scratches all over
    him and if I was an Olympic B-Ball player, I would be worried. When I'm
    driving down the lane, I don't want to have a _remote_ possibility that
    the guy that smacks me might put some contaminated blood on me. A
    couple of months ago, an AIDS infected prisoner was tried for attempted
    murder for putting contaminated blood on a prison guard. Now it's
    supposed to be OK to play a violent contact sport where the chances of
    coming into contact with blood is very real. Maybe I'm misinformed and
    paranoid, but I wouldn't play, at least not at that level. A pickup
    game is one thing (where the play is probably not as rough) but these
    guys will be banging.
    
    BTW - I would be scared shitless to fly to Barcelona as well. I _HATE_
    flying.
    
    Dennis
    

>   Has anyone explained to the Australian basketball team that there is a
>    risk of their plane crashing into the ocean on route to Barcelona?  The
>    risk is small, but it is a risk.


I'm sure all the team members know the risk of getting in a plane crash. Those
that decide it is too risky should be allowed to pursue alternate forms of 
transportation.....Once again it comes down to a matter of choice....


Metz

    Just remember, AIDS is forever.... and will lead to death... Its not
    like a cold, flu, measles.. There is no cure... If I "had" a chance to
    catch AIDS from something, I would not take that chance.. My life
    depends on that dicision...
    
    REK
    
    PS Magic does not deserve to be on the All-star team... If he is on it
    then Wilt deserves to be on it... neither one has played a game in the
    NBA this year....

    Magic deserves it because he was voted in by the fans.  Wilt wasn't.
    If Magic didn't come in second or first for guards in his conference,
    I'd agree with you.

    I think its very easy for people to say let him play, let him play.
    But it comes down to weather you would be willing to risk your life
    to play against him ???  I know many people will say yes (Because they
    know it will never happen) but really think about it, would it be
    worth dying for.... And where not talking about the chances of getting
    in a plain crash (INstant death in most cases) were talking about
    knowing up front that you will be playing against an HIV+ opponent.
    
    Like I said in an earlier note if you had an open cut/scratch/wound on
    your hand and magic was driving the lane, would you wrap him up or step
    back... I know what I would do.... Face it, its not fear to put all the
    other athletes into this situation.  I lose more and more respect for
    him each day this continues,  He can still reach people without putting
    anyone else's life on the line.  I also feel bad for the other players
    in the all star game (The West Will win by the way) No player is going
    to come forward and say they dont want to play against him because he
    is MAGIC... But if some 2nd year shmuck was HIV+ you can bet he wouldnt
    be playing...
    							M_Air_Brooks

>              -< Im Still hoping he will step back on his own... >-

Get used to it cause he ain't.

Much of what is presented here is old news. 

Two groups of people have spoken loudly on whether or not they want Magic
to play in the All Star Game. 

First the fans voted him in. 

Secondly, a poll was taken among the players and they were for Magic
playing by an overwhelming percentage.  Those that said they were against
him playing were divided: some said no because he retired and some said
not because of of HIV concerns.

TTom

    
    I'm tired of all of the whining about who would/wouldn't/should/shouldn't
    supposedly put their life at risk simply by playing a basketball game
    with Magic Johnson.  Someone made a very good point in an article I
    read this weekend: in this country alone, tens of thousands of health
    care workers (including people like my own wife) place themselves at
    infinitely greater risk in treating AIDS patients than any basketball
    player or anyone else who comes into casual contact with a person with
    AIDS does.  Not only is there no mechanism for denying treatment to AIDS
    patients, but it's considered a matter of medical ethics that if you're
    in the business, you do the job or you get out.  Period.
    
    I think the same thing holds here.  Unlike the situation with health care
    professionals, the experts have determined that the risk is infinitesimal 
    and in practice non-existent, and like anyone else with a blood-to-blood 
    (like Hepatitis B) or sexually transmitted disease they've been cleared 
    to play.  If athletes want to get swept up in the disinformation and 
    ignorance and feel that they're genuinely at risk, they can get out.  
    That attitude needn't be catered to...
    
    glenn
     

    The Fans dont have to play against him and have proven again and again
    and again and again the most fans shouldnt even be voting.  And the
    players wont vote against him for the most part because hes magic... So
    all youve pointed out is the obvious.  I just think its quite obvious
    that he shouldnt be playing and this is quite ridiculous.  Would a
    boxer be forced to retire if he were HIV+, ive seen boxing matches with
    no blood at all... So hey let him fight... Hed proberbly win every
    fight.  No one will be able to defend him being HIV+ as they would have
    if he were not HIV+... I just dont see how its fair to anybody else but
    again I dont want to see anybody say that HE CANT PLAY either... It
    would set e precedence for others... Very controversal situation.. Just
    hope magic handles it properly.  Which again I think he will....
    
    								MaB 

    
    Glenn, people in the health care industry take precautions
    when treating AIDS patients, as a matter of fact alot of 
    people in the industry are taking precautions even if the 
    patient is not infected with the HIV virus. What precautions
    can one take when playing a contact sport with an HIV infected
    person?
    
    
    Steve

    
    > Glenn, people in the health care industry take precautions
    > when treating AIDS patients, as a matter of fact alot of 
    > people in the industry are taking precautions even if the 
    > patient is not infected with the HIV virus. What precautions
    > can one take when playing a contact sport with an HIV infected
    > person?
    
    It's already been mentioned that the precaution that has been 
    implemented as a rule is to immediately remove a player who suffers a 
    cut or wound from the game until the bleeding stops.  This removes the 
    chance of any blood-to-blood transfers between open wounds (and 
    completely negates the analogy to boxing, where open wounds and bleeding 
    are part and parcel of the sport).  I'm sure we can imagine some
    far-fetched scenario where a blood transfer capable of transmitting and
    sustaining the virus takes place from a violent collision, but there 
    are no recorded cases of this ever happening, in any vocation.
    
    Health care professionals can take precautions around infected patients, 
    but in some rare instances have contracted the virus when accidentally 
    stuck by infected needles or other instruments.  There's no special
    precaution that can be taken, other than just to be very careful with 
    the instruments and to dispose of them properly.  But if you get stuck,
    you get stuck; there's no way to avoid the use of these devices.
    There's no analagous action in the game of basketball.
    
    glenn
     

   > It's already been mentioned that the precaution that has been 
   > implemented as a rule is to immediately remove a player who suffers a 
   > cut or wound from the game until the bleeding stops.  This removes the 
   > chance of any blood-to-blood transfers between open wounds (and 
   > completely negates the analogy to boxing, where open wounds and bleeding 
   > are part and parcel of the sport).  I'm sure we can imagine some
   > far-fetched scenario where a blood transfer capable of transmitting and
   > sustaining the virus takes place from a violent collision, but there 
   > are no recorded cases of this ever happening, in any vocation.
    
	
      Glenn, I have a problem with the above implication that there is
no chance of any blood to blood transfer that may occur. A cut may stop
bleeding while attended, but it can easily start bleeding again as soon
as play is resumed. The heart is beating faster and blood pressure rises.
It is not safe to assume that once a cut stops bleeding that it has stopped
for good. And while I tend to agree with those who think that Magic should
play in the All-Star game, I would hate to become the first person to 
contract HIV from a violent collision. JMHO


Steve

       Doesn't the virus die immediately when exposed to air?
                                     Denny

    Denny -
    
    That's what the doctor in the AIDS awareness session told us.  The HIV
    virus is very fragile, in comparison with other viruses.  Exposure to
    air kills it, which is why you don't have to worry about personal
    contact like shaking hands or hugging someone who is HIV+.  Even when
    you have full vaginal intercourse, unprotected, the odds are only 1 in
    100 that you will contract AIDS as a result of that one time.  Exposure
    risk multiplies exponentially, however, so the message there is *use
    condoms, every time* -- but don't panic if the condom breaks, "gets
    lost", or is forgotten.  Don't assume that since you had a condom
    "failure" once, that you should stop using them 'cause you've "got it
    now, anyway".  You probably don't.
    
    It takes a significant amount of blood transfer, or repeated exposure,
    to make the odds of contracting HIV+ significant.  Playing most sports,
    including basketball, shouldn't be a problem if a bleeding player is
    removed from the game and treated so that even if the cut re-opens, it
    will be bandaged and won't cause blood-to-blood contact with another
    player.
    
    
    I spent last Friday morning at the revised AIDS awareness session
    sponsored by the AIDS program office.  It is excellent, has new
    information based on what has been learned in the last couple of years,
    and is focused at *all* employees, not just managers.  Please
    encourage/ask your management to bring the presentation in, as it is
    presented to entire work groups.
    
    A&W

 Like Glenn said while health care professional can take all the precausions
 in the world the occassional accident does happen. My wife's IV nurse and I
 really wish she change jobs but to give you an example one of her co-workers
 contracted the disease when the neddle she took out of an AIDS patient fell
 out of her hands and pierced through her shoe stabbing her. My wife says
 ever month more and more people pass through the hospital into the morgue
 from AIDS.

 Anyone else read the Worcester RAG last night? Seems 12 folks got arrested
 at ASTRA pharmaceudicals yesterday. They've come up with this new drug Forvin
 (sp) that helps retard the spread of the blindness that is one of the side
 effects of the disease. Cost $1,740.00 per month! 58 bucks a day! What a 
 country...

 Also an article by Ken how the good times spoiled this company and left us
 unprepared for the bad times. How fat cat managers padded themselves in aren't
 doing a good job. That's all well a fine Ken but of 400 or 500 people let go
 in Hudson I could probably count how many of them were managers on one hand...

 mike 

> Anyone else read the Worcester RAG last night? Seems 12 folks got arrested
> at ASTRA pharmaceudicals yesterday. They've come up with this new drug Forvin
> (sp) that helps retard the spread of the blindness that is one of the side
> effects of the disease. Cost $1,740.00 per month! 58 bucks a day! What a 
> country...


I'll tell you a story.

A friend's uncle is a geneticist at a university in New York.  The man
has made tremendous in-roads in the areas of in-vitro fertilization
(primarily with farm livestock) and in the areas of gene-splicing.

His wife was dying of cancer, and it was to the point where no matter
what they did she was going to die.  It seems that all of the technology
is there to cure some forms of cancer with gene-splicing technology, 
and it seems in her case, he had the necessary stuff to do it, yet
"the powers that be -- the FDA" wouldn't let him do it.

It's really ashame that bureaucracy really screws things up.


> Also an article by Ken how the good times spoiled this company and left us
> unprepared for the bad times. How fat cat managers padded themselves in aren't
> doing a good job. That's all well a fine Ken but of 400 or 500 people let go
> in Hudson I could probably count how many of them were managers on one hand...


Oh, Mike, you have hit the nail on the head.  So, so often I've seen
an utter lack of common sense in things that are done.  Intelligence is
a fine quality, but it's like having a socket wrench set that only has
a driver, no sockets.  Common sense is the sockets you need!

They're talking about letting more people go.  Not to slight anyone, but
I know engineering is making good products.  Problems I see are that 
the customers that need to be targeted and actively pursued aren't being
sought.

It's like in Russia:  we're the farmers that grow the potatoes.  WE can
produce and harvest, but if there are no truck drivers to get them to
market, it don't mean diddley.  

We need to get some good truck drivers, not lay off the farmers!


sheesh...

Where's Thomas Paine when you need him!


'Saw

 >Anyone else read the Worcester RAG last night? Seems 12 folks got arrested
 >at ASTRA pharmaceudicals yesterday. They've come up with this new drug Forvin
 >(sp) that helps retard the spread of the blindness that is one of the side
 >effects of the disease. Cost $1,740.00 per month! 58 bucks a day! What a 
 >country...

The ASTRA plant in Westboro??  So why did they get arrested??  My mom works 
there (part time in ths stock room doing your basic data entry type stuff) 
and I know several weeks ago they were pretty excited about the breakthrough.
I'll have to call her tonight and get the 'scoop'.

Scott

    Heard another goodie about the demonstration in Westboro.  It seems 
    that "60 Minutes" is putting together a thang about the organization
    that did the protest and several of the demo's were wired with
    microphones to record statements/conversations/remarks by the Westboro
    police department.
    
    It's a bit fuzzy but I thought I heard that the Westboro PD is
    threatening Ed Bradley & 60 Minutes with a lawsuit if the tapes
    are broadcast - something about illegal wiretaps or something.
    
    Can't wait for Sunday night!!!!!!!
    
    Yer listening reporter,
    Kev
    

Did anyone see the Far Side yesterday?

It was entitled:

		Mike Wallace Interviews the Devil


too funny!!!!


'Saw

I believe they were blocking an entrance way into the plant as a protest
against the cost of the drug....

 mike

 cops claiming illegal wiretapping ain't that a kick in the pants. 

    Question:
    
    Are the players who are claiming they don't want to be on the same
    court as Magic also in favor or manditory testing?  It would seem
    to be a huge hypocrisy to ban someone for owning up to it and then
    continue to have others play when they don't know if they have it
    or not.
    

>I believe they were blocking an entrance way into the plant as a protest
>against the cost of the drug....

I talked to my mom, who works there, last night.  The protesters came from as 
far as New York, and they rented Ryder trucks and blocked a public street (not 
the plant enterance) a little ways from Astra with the truck, then crawled 
underneath and handcuffed themselves to the underside.  It caused some pretty 
major traffic backups I guess on route 9.  Once the media showed up they 
eventually unhandcuffed themsleves and gave themselves up.  They basically 
wanted the publicity for their cause.  The issue is the selling price of the 
drug.

Astra sent their employees home with a memo outlining what happened and Astra's 
position (wish I had a copy).  I guess the drug cost in the hundreds of 
millions to develop and Astra has to pay these costs and their employees, etc.  
They plan to look at the pricing in 5-6 months and modify as appropriate.  
They also are currently distributing the drug under some kind of 'indigent' 
program for people who can't afford it - I have no idea what the criteria for 
that is.  

The protestors claim that Astras cost figures (and thus the selling price) are 
inflated.

I'm not judging who is right here, just providing the info.

Scott

    
    The ONLY thing these protesters are doing is taking away the initiative
    of the drug companies to develop the products.

 
>    The ONLY thing these protesters are doing is taking away the initiative
>    of the drug companies to develop the products.


  doubt it Bruce. If they can get away with charging those kind of prices
  no hill of protesters is going to take away their initiative. 

 but Mac, people don't need our tape to survive. One's a luxury the other a
 necessity. I realize that research isn't cheap but AIDS ain't going away
 anytime fast so I think they could reduce the price and recoup the research
 costs over the long haul instead of the first year. It's be good for PR, and
 good for business as well. What good is it to develop a drug that can save
 millions if only a few thousand can afford it..

 I'd like to see the government eat some of these costs of research for these
 discoveries instead of bailing out the S&L and banks....

 mike

    
    Mike, what's with that p_name.  3 outa 4 of those guys gots a ring!

 but they've all had a history of underachieving..getting to the dance more
 often than not and coming away empty...

 it's naturally my shot back at Doc...

 ;^)

 small nit Bruce but only Wilt and Dean have rings. Clyde is Drexler not
 Frazier...

    After watching yesterday's Bulls-Lakers game, Magic is definitely
    better off playing hoops.

    re: .600
    
    The thing that impressed me is that Magic had an opinion on stuff. When
    it was a foul, he called it a foul and said that "well, you know, the
    NBA will never call taht on Micheal". That's a hell of a lot more than
    any of the other talking heads will admit to. He also had some critical
    comentary on the Lakers. Sure, his voice wasn't all that terrific, but
    that could be coached. 
    
    Dennis
    

     Anyone see Magic in Michael Jacksons world premier Video on FOX
    lasted(tm) night.  Some one oughta shoot Jackson....  He's a world 
    class GEEK !!
    
    BG

Plus the song bites....

Methinks the great gloved one spends most of his time writing songs that would
look good on film as apposed to sounding good...

Magic should stick to his dream of owning an NBA franchise instead of acting

Metz
 

    re: Magic's dream of owning an NBA franchise
    
    Instead of an NBA franchise, I'd like to see him initiate a womens pro
    basketball league.  I think this would be a great opportunity for him,
    maybe DrJ, and a few other former players-turned-enterpreneurs to own
    their own teams in a start-up league in an area that demands attention.
    Witness the popularity of womens college hoops on tv, especially
    tournament time, when air play is increasing every year.  Many would
    argue that a womens pro league would never reach even the popularity of
    the CBA, but I think that if owned and managed by such influential and
    popular personalities such as Magic, DrJ, even Larry Bird, and some
    others, such a league could become highly successful...
    
    Hawk
     

 and if they could find a few Rachel Hunter look alike that can also play the
 game they'd be set. Myself I enjoy watching the women play because with the
 exception of a Cheryl Miller type it's a team game. Even purer than the Men's
 college baketball program..

 mike

I'd settle for Meg Ryan.

I watched DOA over the weekend, and all i can say was "whoa!"....


'Saw

    Nancy Lieberman (Lady Magic) could join too now that she's left
    Martina.

    James Worthy could own the team with the McGee twins and base the
    team in Houston...

Mr Barkley, aka The Round Mound of Rebound, has stated that he doesn't think
that Magic should play in the All-Star game. Fear of AIDS? Nope. He says that
the All-Star game is for players in the NBA that have had an excellent first
half of the season. 

He stated that he has thought about picking up the phone and asking Magic not to
play. He feels that he would overshadow everybody else on the court and feels
bad for the younger players involved in the game because their spotlight would
be taken away.

Once again Charles has said what is on some peoples minds and I, for one, agree
with him entirely. The NBA All-Star game is for current players, not retired 
ones. The fans would vote in Kareem and Russell if they were on the ballot but
it doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't be playing in the game.

Olympics fine, NBA All-Star game...no way....

Metz

    Barkley should be talking to the fans, not Magic.  Why hasn't he said
    the same thing about Larry Bird?

    ...maybe 'cause Larry hasn't retired?
    
    
    
    HTH,
    
    Nelly

 naw, Barkley wants to be a Celtic too just like Zeke.....
 ;^)

Sorry Mac,

There's quite a differnce between Retired, quit, not playing in the NBA any
more and currently hurt. 

If you aren't a part of the league, you don't belong in the game.


Magic is ex-NBA, no longer associated with with NBA. Not in the league. Same
status as Karreem, Wilt, Cowens, Cousy, Pistol Pete (well maybe not the same
as Pete) and Dr J.


Metz

>   As stated, Barkley's beef is that the All Star game should reward those
>   players who have an All Star type half season this year.  Using this
>   logic one could argue that Larry Bird shouldn't be on the roster and
>   Dee Brown shouldn't have even been on the ballot.
    
  until he got hurt Bird was after his 4th MVP MAC. If that's not all-star
  material I don't know what is....

 mike

    Bird?  MVP year?  Wasn't Lewis putting up better numbers?

    Gee where have I heard this before!
    
>    If I'm not mistaken, Magic is still on the Laker roster.
    
    Yeah but he's on IR and injured people don't come off IR to play in the
    All-Star game, unless David Stern makes you (ask Sir Charles).
    
    Mike

    Bird's stats were comparable to his 3 MVP seasons before he went down.
    Lewis would only come close in scoring.
    
    

                                  
    Like I said before, I don't understand the point of Magic playing in
    the All-Star Game (as opposed to the Olympics).  I don't really know
    what he can get out of it that he hasn't already ten times before,
    regardless of what others (like some fans) might want.  Even as a 
    "goodbye" thing, it's kind of contrived, especially as Magic himself 
    now appears to be unsure about retirement.  As to stealing the
    spotlight away from the other players, I don't buy it.  I would guess
    that for a couple million people Magic will be the only reason to tune
    in, and that will only mean more TV exposure and attention for
    everyone, since these people wouldn't otherwise be watching at all.  My 
    guess is that it'll be the highest-rated NBA All-Star game in history. 
    (I can't remember the last time I sat through more than ten minutes of
    the NBA All-Star Game, myself...)
    
    I also don't think it's Charles Barkley's place to dictate league
    policy, after the fact.  If he's unsure about being on the court with 
    a person with AIDS, then that's a personal reservation and maybe I 
    could understand it, but he won't come out and say so but rather claims 
    that's not the point.  Is Barkley willing to discuss the merits of who 
    else doesn't belong, or critique his own fan vote totals year-to-year?  
    I think not.  Would Barkley have spoken out if Magic had spent the
    first half of this year rehabbing an injured knee while on the Lakers'
    roster?  I seriously doubt it.  I think Charles is doing what he does 
    best, which is to draw attention to himself.
    
    glenn
      

    Barkley's not the only one I've heard with this argument.  AC Green and
    Worthy have had the same beef.  Playing in the game should be a
    privilege, not a right.  Will people pay attention to Reggie Lewis
    and Otis Thorpe and Dan Marjele, or Magic?
    
    How come the press says Bird won't be activated until after the break,
    but is expecting to play in the game?  What's the difference?  The
    Lakers didn't retire Magic, he's officially on the injured list.
    Bird's missed what - 15-20 games this year?  And he's not playing in
    another until the break, but he's healthy enough to play?  Sounds
    bogus to me.

    fwiw, Byron Scott also said the same thing as AC Green.

    I thought I heard on the radio today that Larry turned down
    the All-Star weekend.  He won't be playing in the game, nor the 3 point
    contest.
    
    Hal Tried Hard,
    Kev
    

    Bird has turned down the All-Star game.  Michael Adams was named to
    replace him.
    
    I agree with Charles Barkley in his conception of what the All-Star
    game should be.  As I've pointed out before, All-Star games are not and
    have never been that way.  Now, if they want to have All-Star games
    that truly reward someone for a great season, they should do the
    following:
    
    1.  Move them to the end of the year
    2.  Have the selection done at or near the end of the regular season
    3.  Take away the fan vote.  Given lack of knowledge on the part of
    most fans on who is truly having a great season, they tend to vote for
    the familiar names who may not be having a great season.
    
    John

FYI I saw Barkley on the news last night and he claims to have been mis-quoted 
about his feelings on Magic and the All-Star game.  He said on camera that he 
has no problem with Magic playing in the game if the fans want him there.

Scott

    Barkley said the same thing on Letterman, lasted night.  He also said
    that he thought it was unfair to all the first time all-stars who would
    be overshadowed by Magic's appearance.

 Walt the MVP comment was made in jest, but before he fell on his back Bird
 was having a very good year a definate all-star year. Lewis while still
 having a very good year will never be the passer or rebounder that Larry
 was/is. Lewis is though light years ahead of Bird when it comes to man to
 man defense. On the other hand if they ever allow zones Bird will be letal..

 mike

    One thing is for sure: if Magic isn't in shape, he's going to embarass
    himself and the west.  Lucky for him, his nemesis will be his teammate.
    Majerle pulled some real defensive gems at Magic's expense.
    
    Mike