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Conference 7.286::sports_91

Title:CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid
Notice:This file has been archived. New notes to CAM3::SPORTS.
Moderator:CAM3::WAY
Created:Fri Dec 21 1990
Last Modified:Mon Nov 01 1993
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:290
Total number of notes:84103

92.0. "Pittsburgh Pirates *OFFICIALLY*" by CELTIK::JACOB (Teenage Moody Nugent Turtles) Thu Jan 31 1991 18:51

    This'll be the note for the next world series winners
    
    
    THE PITTSBURGH PIRATES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    JaKe
    
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92.1Bonds spouts off.CELTIK::JACOBTeenage Moody Nugent TurtlesThu Jan 31 1991 18:5515
    Well Barry Bonds is trying to get the Dave Parker Massive Mouth of the
    Year award already.  Bonds told the media here that if he goes to
    arbitration next month instead of getting a long term contract from the
    Bucs, he WILL leave Pittsburgh after the 1992 season.
    
    He reportedly wants $5 million a year.  Funny how one good year goes to
    somebody's head, and wallet for that matter, eh?
    
    I figure that since these statements were made, the Bucs will have
    Bonds on the trade block pretty soon.  If he plays for the Bucs this
    year, it wouldn't suprise me to see an eveready shower in left field.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.2AXIS::ROBICHAUDIndustrial Strength NoterThu Jan 31 1991 19:005
    	But JaKe, sometimes you got to wonder if all those players who
    complained were wrong and the Pittsburgh management right.  I would
    pay him the money.
    
    				/Don
92.3Not Worth ItCELTIK::JACOBTeenage Moody Nugent TurtlesThu Jan 31 1991 19:0716
    /Don
    
    I still don't see where one good year after 2 or 3 VERY mediocre(at
    best) years justifies paying a guy $5 mil a year GUARANTEED!!!!
    
    I could see it if Bonds had played up to the level he played at last
    year for the one or two years previous, BUT, the 2 previous years he
    played like a platoon player with a sh!tload of potential.  If they
    give him the $5 Mil and he reverts back to that style, it would be the
    biggest mistake the Bucs could make, after the Dave Parker fiasco of
    the early '80's.  I could see paying him say, $3.5 kil with incentive
    clauses, but not $5 Mil.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.4Baby Bonds...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Jan 31 1991 19:099
    Even in today's world of highly-paid, self-publicizing athletes, Barry
    Bonds is fast becoming intolerable.  I think the crying spell on Roy
    Firestone's ESPN show sealed it for me.  Hell of a ballplayer, one I'd
    love to see play everyday, but see him on TV with a mike in front of 
    his face and it's time to switch channels, fast...
    
    glenn
    
92.5Later BarrySHALOT::MEDVIDWhen two tribes go to war...Thu Jan 31 1991 19:261
    
92.6REFINE::ASHEWhatever happened to Terry DUE-rod?Thu Jan 31 1991 20:1810
    He was on ESPN last night and said he was misquoted.
    
    He said he wanted a 5 year contract.  He then asked someone with
    the numbers being thrown out out there, what did the guy think he
    would get on the open market.  The guy (don't know if it was a
    management type or not) said $5 million maybe, and Barry said,
    "Well, there you go...".  
    
    I don't think he's worth $5 million. (Is anyone?)  I'd give him
    $3-$3.5 million and sign him for 3 or 4 years.  The guy can play.
92.7ECAMV3::JACOBUSAF:DistributingMIGPartsThruOutIRAQFri Feb 01 1991 01:479
    I agree Bonds is a good player but he's a DUD in the clubhouse.
    
    One example was his open criticism of Jeff King DURING the NLCS for not
    playing with a sprained back.  I feel he should have kept his big mouth
    shut and played his best, which he was far from doing in the NLCS.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.8SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Fri Feb 01 1991 16:5826
    
    
    	It's simply a sign of the times...
    
    	The Pirates could very well be doomed in Pittsburgh.  They clearly
    have one of the smallest population bases and in todays market, that
    can kill a team.
    
    	In the paper yesterday, it was stated that the Pirates generate 
    between 5-10 mil off of radio/TV.  Now compare that with the 50+mil
    that the Yankees get from TV/radio and it only figures that some 
    teams will suffer.  Granted they will get 15 mil from the Network TV
    contract, but their salaries totaled 15.5 mil last year.  It's also
    a fact that the Buc's never really draw that well.  Even when they are
    winning, Three Rivers rarely has 45K in it.  It's great for those of
    us who come home for a visit and can get decent seats on gameday, but
    it doesn't do much for the overall problem.
    
    	Bonds is just the latest to want "his".  Bonilla also will command
    a large salary, and how will they manage that?
    
    	It's a sad situation, but the Pirates could eventually move from
    the steel city just to stay afloat!
    
    								bill..g.
    
92.9NO!!! lunchpail folks need identity too!!!!!!CSTEAM::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Sat Feb 02 1991 01:4413
    Goose,
    
    
    	I really hope it never comes to that.  Pittsburgh Steelers
    has been an integral piece of making the NFL what it is today! 
    Unfortunately, in today's super money grubbing, ridiculous salary
    structure, I don't believe that the team could expect any kind of
    $$ supports.
    
    Hope they stay.
    
    Kev
    
92.10:^)ECAMV3::JACOBUSAF:DistributingMIGPartsThruOutIRAQSat Feb 02 1991 02:3713
    >>    <<< Note 92.9 by CSTEAM::FARLEY "Have YOU seen Elvis today??" >>>
    
    >>	I really hope it never comes to that.  Pittsburgh Steelers
    >>has been an integral piece of making the NFL what it is today! 
    
    Kev, Not to nitpick or anything but this is the PIRATES note, ya know
    baseball, throw the ball hit with bat make a zillion dollars a year for
    hitting .245 and making errors out your a$$.
    
    The Steelers are over in good ole note # 35.
    
    JaKe
    
92.11LUNER::BROOKSTwentysomething Mutant Ninja HomeboySat Feb 02 1991 13:356
    re .8
    
    I don't get it Goose. Granted the Pirates don't draw a lot of people,
    but Fenway's top capacity is 35,000. Three Rivers is much bigger
    (55,000 ?), why are they operating on a shoestring (relatively
    speaking) ?
92.12It's the stadium, not the fansSHALOT::MEDVIDWhen two tribes go to war...Mon Feb 04 1991 11:2614
>    I don't get it Goose. Granted the Pirates don't draw a lot of people,
>    but Fenway's top capacity is 35,000. Three Rivers is much bigger
>    (55,000 ?), why are they operating on a shoestring (relatively
>    speaking) ?
    
    Because Fenway usually fills all 35,000 seats.  If 35,000 came to Three
    Rivers for every game of the year, the Bucs would have a ton of cash. 
    If you haven't been to Three Rivers for a baseball game, don't bother. 
    Aside from the terrible traffic and parking that go along with most
    stadiums/parks, it's just a big concrete circle that is so very
    impersonal.  It's just not as much fun to to Three Rivers as it is to
    many other parks.
    
    	--dan'l
92.13It ain't just the stadium-- that region's a football hotbed...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Feb 04 1991 13:2727
    
    Being from Pittsburgh, I don't see the Pirates drawing 35,000 per even
    under the most ideal of stadium conditions, unless (maybe) they're 
    having a great season like last year.  While the Pirates certainly 
    have their share of die-hard fans, there just aren't enough of them 
    in a relatively small population base (but don't let Pittsburgh 
    proper's population of 375K and steadily dropping fool you completely-- 
    there are a lot of people in those hills) to sustain a large attendance 
    for baseball.
    
    Like another favorite city of mine-- Baltimore-- used to be, Pittsburgh
    is first and foremost a football city.  I don't think there's enough
    time, energy, and money to support both sports team to the fullest
    extent.  When the Steelers exploded in the 70's, it hurt the Pirates'
    standing badly.  A previously laughed-at, pathetic franchise (even in
    comparison to the Pirates over most of the post-WWII years) became the
    top dog for good, now selling out every game every year, even in 
    off-years.
    
    The Pirates-to-move rumors aren't anything new.  I remember the same,
    but stronger, talk in the late 70's, but didn't new ownership and a
    World Championship turn that around?  The key to the Pirates' survival
    will be performance, 'cuz if they don't play well in a failing economy,
    there's going very few people at Three Rivers...
    
    glenn
      
92.14SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Mon Feb 04 1991 14:3856
    
    
    	I'll also add that one of the Pirates problems over the last 15 
    years has been identity.  Maybe I'm all wet, but when I was growing up,
    every kid I knew identified with some pirate, namely Clemente, Stargell
    or Maz.  Now, I'm talking white kids here that could identify with 
    a Puerto Rican, Black and white.  In the early 70's when the Pirates 
    fielded an all black lineup, that brought some resentment.  That's not
    to lump all of Pittsburgh or their fans as being racist, but I know
    there was some resentment among the fans.  Clemente dies, and Stargell
    takes over the reigns.  Might I add that willie was great in what he
    had to do.  The first major rumblings of decent were with Gene Cline,
    and moved to Doc Ellis and finally erupted with Dave Parker so much so
    that the fans were throwing batteries at him.  Again, I don't think it
    had much to do with the fact that these individuals were black, but
    that they chose to "speak out" and this was uncommon for a Pirate fan.
    Everyone would say, "Clemente would never say that, and Roberto would
    never act like that!"  Same for Stargell.  
    
    	All through the 70's (except for the "family"), I believe the fans
    had a difficult time identifying with the players, hence the small
    turnouts.  Granted, the Pirates had some dismal teams, but to only draw
    a couple of thousand is pretty bad considering they did with two titles
    in the 70's.
    
    	Now we have the 90's where big bucks are the key.  Pittsburgh is
    still a blue collar town where the people drink their Iron City with a
    shot and it is difficult for these people to identify with guys who
    want 1-5 mil per year for playing a game, while the local steel mills
    have went south.  I think identity is a big problem, but maybe I'm wrong.
    
    	Part of the identity problem I believe has to do with the late 
    Pirate broadcaster Bob Prince.  Although he was a homer, he gave every
    Pirate a "label" and usually those labels stuck and as a fan, you began
    to identify that player with his nickname.  Reguardless of Princes'
    ability behind the mic, I really enjoyed the names he came up with, and
    as a fan, I miss that!  It made the game more interesting and personal.
    There were no stats for BA on grass and on turf.  No stats on BA for 
    night or day games, or for a 2 strike count.  The game was a lot
    simpler then as stats didn't mean as much to the average listener as
    we are led to believe today.
    
    	I guess Pittsburgh'ers love nicknames!  Take the Steelers for
    example.  During the 70's and even now, most have nicknames and the
    fans use those names.  Franco's "Italian Army", "Mean Joe" Greene,
    Dwight "mad dog" White, Gerella's Gorillas etc.  I'll never forget a 
    sign the fans used to put up for Jack Ham...it was (excuse my polish) 
    "dobra shanka" which meant "great ham".  Corny, but the fans identified 
    with all these guys.  They wore their numbers on their shirt sleeves.
    
    	To me, part of being a fan, means identifying with the team and its
    players...  To this day, whenever I bat, I still cock my head around
    like Clemente did...I guess we never really grow up!  Heaven forbid!
    
    
    							bill..g.
92.15Didn't mean this to be so long...SHALOT::MEDVIDWhen two tribes go to war...Mon Feb 04 1991 16:1225
    Bill,
    
    nice essay.  You may be right; the Pirates' downswing may just have
    been started when Clemente's plane crashed into the ocean.  The city
    loved him for and identified with his work ethic.  But then too they
    still tarnished that love and respect by saying things like, "Man, that
    n_____ could run."
    
    And then the all-black lineup in a very bigotted town (meaning not only
    a resentment of blacks, but of all ethnic groups) to which fans openly
    referred to as the "Nigerian Nine," really gave Pittsburgh an excuse to
    turn away from baseball and embrace football even more.
    
    Somehow, I feel if those nine black players had been playing at Forbes
    Field still in the 70's, nobody would have even raised an eyebrow. 
    Which leads me straight back to the point that Three Rivers has very
    much to do with the demise of attendance.  We tore down a ballpark with
    the mystique of Wrigley and Fenway in leau of some concrete,
    cookie-cutter monstrosity.  
    
    If you want to identify with a player, you must first feel you are part
    of the team.  You certainly don't get this at Three Rivers.  There you
    are only a spectator removed from the action.
    
    	--dan'l
92.16A better park/location would help, but wouldn't change things...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Feb 04 1991 16:3616
    
    > Somehow, I feel if those nine black players had been playing at Forbes
    > Field still in the 70's, nobody would have even raised an eyebrow. 
    
    Why, Dan'l?  My experience regarding racial division in Pittsburgh
    corresponds very nicely with yours ("separate but equal" might come
    as close as it ever could to being true in Pittsburgh), but I don't
    know why Forbes Field would have changed anything.  Early in his
    career, Clemente was much maligned in Pittsburgh, mostly because of his
    injury record, which was somehow traced back to his ethnic and national
    heritage.  When we were kids, he was a god, but it wasn't always so in 
    Pittsburgh.  I don't see Forbes Field as some kind of a romantic
    panacea to the race-related problems.  Fenway Park hasn't been, has it?
    
    glenn
    
92.17Racism is an excuse, not a cause.SHALOT::MEDVIDWhen two tribes go to war...Mon Feb 04 1991 17:0723
    No, Glenn, the racism would always be there.  My point, that I didn't
    make very well, was that people became disenchanted with going to the
    games once the Pirates moved to Three Rivers.  They used racism as an
    excuse not to go.  It was convenient.  No one wanted to fess up to
    being a lousy baseball town...which it has become regardless.  
    
    But maybe I'm totally off base (ho ho, I made a funny).  I was only
    eight years old when the Bucs moved to Three Rivers.  I never even went
    to Forbes.  How was attendance at Forbes before the move?
    
    All I can identify with is the left field wall still standing and home
    plate presereved in its exact location in Pitt's Forbes Quad Building. 
    But people love to relive the past and I can only imagine what it would
    feel like going to Forbes Field today and looking out at left field,
    closing my eyes, and watching Yoggi Bera turn and run chasing that ball
    and the fans quiet for a moment until...yes, Maz had won the world
    series in the bottom of the ninth.  Now the only thing I can even
    connect with is the colored, upper-level seats that denote Stargell
    homeruns.  
    
    Guess I just feel kind of cheated out of a link the the Pirates of old.
    
    	--dan'l
92.18SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Mon Feb 04 1991 17:0936
    
    	I really don't think 3 Rivers Stadium is the problem.  Granted,
    it's pretty boring once inside, but there aint a better postcard view
    in the world than one looking up-river at the "golden Triangle" at 
    night with 3 rivers on the left.  I think the powers to be put the
    stadium where it would best fit the skyline and fit in.  It's pretty
    bland inside, but I really don't mind to much.  The Steeler's play 
    there and the fans don't seem to mind a bit about it either.
    
    	I still say there is a lack of identity and that goes for a lot of
    sports towns.  Not to many people can identify with "joe-player" in 
    his 500 dollar silk suit checking out his investment portfolio.
    
    	Pittsburgh people are still a people who pride themselves in an
    honest day's pay for an honest day's work.  If the players remove 
    themselves from the general community, they tend to become less
    respected.  At least in a small city Pittsburgh.  In NYC and LA, who
    cares if the guy is a jerk because they are all around.  But smaller
    metro areas like Cincy and Pittsburgh really feel that their teams are
    part of a family...at least in Pittsburgh they do.  
    
    	With things the way they are in all sports, I wouldn't be surprised
    to see the Pirates eventually move.  On that day though, I know I will
    surely die.  
    
    	Every year when I venture home, I take in a game if the Bucs are 
    home.  I'm simply shocked that more people don't come out.  Even though
    my parents live a whopping 55 miles from Pittsburgh, if I moved back 
    home, I'd buy season tickets and make the hour drive.  Maybe not every
    home game, but I'd make a good many.
    
    	I guess you never know what you had until it's gone...let's hope 
    that the Pirates never leave the Steel city!
    
    							bill..g.
    
92.19The saddest words of tongue or pen...SHALOT::MEDVIDWhen two tribes go to war...Mon Feb 04 1991 17:2019
    
>    	I really don't think 3 Rivers Stadium is the problem.  Granted,
>    it's pretty boring once inside, but there aint a better postcard view
>    in the world than one looking up-river at the "golden Triangle" at 
>    night with 3 rivers on the left.  I think the powers to be put the
>    stadium where it would best fit the skyline and fit in.  
    
    Yes, lovely view...one of the nicest in the country.
    
    But Bill et. al., see if you can dig up a copy of "Pittsburgh: Story of
    an American City," First Edition.  The First Edition is key.  It
    was published before the plans for Three Rivers were finalized.  In it
    is a picture of Municiple Stadium...the original plan for that area. 
    It is a beautiful, open-ended park that looked out upon the city.  
    
    I'm sure the Steelers had something to do with nixing these plans to
    raise seating capacity.  Oh what could have been, folks.
    
    	--dan'l
92.20SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Mon Feb 04 1991 17:2232
    
    re: dan'l
    
    	Dan'l, I am old enough to remember a little about Forbes and had
    the good fortune to attend the 3 Rivers opening.
    
    	Forbes was a pretty grungy place.  Very similar to Fenway in that
    there were poles everywhere!  It was stuck in the middle of Oakland and
    I think the congestion around it was far worse than anything at 3
    Rivers.  I've always said the highlight of going to Forbes was parking
    in Oakland and watching that cop (who was on Candid Camera) before the
    game started.
    
    	Forbes was also a massive park in that its fences were really out
    there.  At the time, I believe only Yankee stadium had a deeper center
    field.  The brick walls were ivy covered and there was a relatively
    short porch in right.  My biggest highlight at Forbes was seeing
    Willie hit his 7th and what was to be the last ball hit over the 
    double decker seats in right....talk about a moon shot!  Before the
    Pirates moved to 3 Rivers, Willie's wife said that she counted 16 fly
    balls (in just that year) that Willie hit that would of been HR's in the 
    new stadium, but were outs at Forbes.  Ohh, I got a Robeto Clemente
    bat (these were real bats) on "bat day".  Carried that thing around
    like it was the last bat on Earth...never forget the day it cracked!
    
    	As for attendance, Forbes didn't hold that many.  As I recall,
    about the same as Fenway.  I'd also say that they had attendance
    problems there too from what I can remember.
    
    
    							bill..g.
    
92.21Things *are* different, but in more ways than just surroundings...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Feb 04 1991 18:0138
    
    Dan'l, I can tell you for a fact that if a refurbished (it would
    have had to have been, because the place was falling apart) Forbes had
    been around when I went back to school in Pittsburgh, I would have gone
    to about ten times the number of games for all the good reasons you've
    given.  But then again, because I was living in Oakland a block off of 
    the Blvd. of the Allies, I was walking along Roberto Clemente Drive,
    over Maz' plaque in the sidewalk and through the remnants of Forbes 
    Field every morning on the way to school.  Otherwise, it must have 
    been a real bitch to get to, even tougher than Fenway.
    
    In retrospect, maybe the design, if not the location, of Three Rivers
    was a mistake.  I agree completely that it's a boring place to see a
    game, and sitting in an empty concrete bowl around the 1982 timeframe 
    watching a mediocre team with an overdue-for-retirement Willie 
    Stargell and an as-yet-unacknowledged drug abuser and talent waster in 
    the form of a bloated Dave Parker wasn't too appealing, even at a buck 
    apiece for student tickets.  But in 1970, when the Pirates moved into 
    Three Rivers, my perception is that the move was warmly welcomed and 
    considered long overdue.  Forbes *was* a dreary place and was falling
    apart, and people were not coming out.  The new ballpark was a
    necessity, but unfortunately as you say, the football dimension 
    resulted in a multi-purpose design of the times.  
    
    I went to Forbes a few times as a young kid, but I don't remember it.
    My dad says that it took a bribe to park somewhere, and then instead of
    buying tickets he'd slip an usher aquaintance a buck or so and be led 
    to a couple of the best seats in the park (there wasn't much demand). 
    Sometimes the guy would even come around during the game with a player
    to meet who'd already finished up or was injured or something.  My 
    father remembers watching a couple of games with Elroy Face that way.  
    Like Bill was pointing out, I think that says it all as to how things
    have changed, beyond the particular stadium surroundings.  And I
    agree that the character of Pittsburgh perhaps demanded that personal
    attention more than in larger cities, and that it's all but gone now...
    
    glenn
    
92.22NostalgiaSHALOT::MEDVIDWhen two tribes go to war...Mon Feb 04 1991 19:0011
    Speaking of dads relating stories...
    
    I was born on Sunday, November 10, 1963, in Shadeyside Hospital (funny
    I should get my graduate degree just blocks away).  My dad, driving
    home after I was born (I guess they did that in those days leaving the
    wife and kid behind for a few days), got stuck in Forbes Field traffic
    after the Steelers had just beaten Cleveland.
    
    I couldn't think of a more appropriate time to be born.
    
    	--dan'l
92.23ECAMV3::JACOBUSAF:DistributingMIGPartsThruOutIRAQMon Feb 04 1991 19:037
    Forbes Field held about 42k.
    
    I thought the reason for the lousy attendance in 3 Rivers was the
    sh!tty hot dogs!!! (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    
92.24EARRTH::BROOKSTwentysomething Mutant Ninja HomeboyTue Feb 05 1991 01:2322
    re .14
    
    I saw nothing corny at all in your note. It was a great one, and
    thanks.
    
    I feel the same way about listening to PAdres games on the raido as a
    kid. Dave Winfield, Randy Jones, Gene Richards, and that clown Jerry
    Coleman as an announcer ....
    
    Funny you mention Bob Prince and his style. Many Tiger fans say the
    same things about Ernie Harwell, and Bo Schembecher (sp) is taking a
    serious bashing for dumping him. Frankly, I think the Tigers are going
    to suffer in a big way under Bo.
    
    Two trends I see my crystal ball for the next 15 years :
    
    Baseball will go back to its roots. New ballparks will shoot for
    ambience more, instead of these sterile cookie-cutters you see today.
    Promotions such as the White Sox's "Turn The Clock Back" is just the
    beginning. It will be welcome I'm sure ....
    
    Doc
92.25just caught upCOOKIE::SIMONWed Feb 13 1991 20:0826
    (I just caught up with SPORTS and this note again)
    
    1) I didn't see if this was mentioned, but if it was, excuse the
    redundancy...one of the primary Three Rivers Stadium is where it is is
    that's almost exactly where Exposition Park (pre-1909 and Forbes Field)
    was.  I believe that was factored heavily into putting the stadium on
    the north side.
    
    2) I agree with whoever in one of the previous replies said that he
    catches as many games when returning to Pittsburgh as possible.  Living
    in Colorado (which was very convenient when the Bucs were considering
    moving to Denver 5 years ago; I would have, and still would, hate to
    see them leave Pgh., but if they are going to go at least I could see
    them play a lot more) I try to see a game at Three Rivers whenever I
    get back to Pgh.
    
    3) I agree that the rise of the Steelers in the 1970s and the griping
    by Dock Ellis, et al. contributed to the decline in interest in the
    Pirates, but don't forget the drug stuff and resulting publicity in the
    1980s, as well as Dave Parker...I think Parker getting his 5-year
    contract and dogging it for that entire period turned off a lot of
    people to the Pirates as a whole.
    
    Anyway, we'll see how this year goes...
    
    Al
92.26Bucs come out on topCELTIK::JACOBTeenage Moody Nugent TurtlesMon Feb 18 1991 22:2111
    The Bucs won their arbitration cases against Bonds and Bonilla.
    
    Bonilla was asking for, I think, $3.45/year and got 2.3 mil.
    
    Barry "Mouthy" Bonds, who had earlier stated that he "COULDN'T LOSE IN
    ARBITRATION"  lost and will get $2.3 mil/year also after asking for
    $3.2 mil.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.27At least try to keep one...NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Feb 19 1991 12:4718
    
    > Barry "Mouthy" Bonds, who had earlier stated that he "COULDN'T LOSE IN
    > ARBITRATION"  lost and will get $2.3 mil/year also after asking for
    > $3.2 mil.
    
    With two years to go for free agency for Bonds, I don't know if the
    Bucs were the "winners" here or not.  I'll be paying special attention
    to see how an already aggravated Bonds responds to this...
    
    And with Bonilla losing his case, the Pirates better get moving and
    fast if they intend on keeping him.  If I were managing the Pirates'
    affairs, I'd commit to Bonilla and let Bonds pout his way to free
    agency if that's the way it's going to be.  I like Bonilla's talent and
    attitude, and his versatility (if not ability) without complaint on 
    defense. 
    
    glenn
    
92.28Bonds and Bonilla are lost, concentrate on VanSlykeSHALOT::MEDVIDto discover war is not the answerTue Feb 19 1991 12:5922
    Bonds stated before arbitration that if he doesn't get what he wants,
    he will someday go to a team where he could haunt the Pirates.  If he
    keeps flapping his lips, he better wear a batting helmet in the
    outfield because the batteries will be flying.  The people of
    Pittsburgh don't take kindly to talk like this.
    
    As far as Bonilla goes, it would be nice to see him in a Pirates
    uniform for a while, but mark my words, he will be in a Yankee uniform
    within the next three years.
    
    This wouldn't hurt so bad had the GM not messed up toward the end of
    last season and mistakenly put two young, talented outfielders on
    waivers and had to settle on a trade for Carmello Martinez...who was a
    foot away from taking the Bucs to game seven.
    
    Bottom line, however, is I really don't give a darn about Bonds or
    Bonilla as long as the Bucs keep Van Slyke in center.  In my opinion,
    he is the best and most exciting of the three.  If he can continue to
    improve on hitting lefties, Pittsburgh will forget about B&B as long as
    Andy is around.
    
    	--dan'l
92.29COOKIE::WAHLTue Feb 19 1991 14:2811
    > As far as Bonilla goes, it would be nice to see him in a Pirates
    > uniform for a while, but mark my words, he will be in a Yankee uniform
    > within the next three years.
    
    ... unless Fred "Best Farm System in the League" Claire gets to him
    first and persuades him to join the Dodger All Free Agent team of the
    90s.
    
    I wonder what Syd Thrift thinks of all this.
    
    Dave W.
92.30CELTIK::JACOBTeenage Moody Nugent TurtlesTue Feb 19 1991 18:379
    Bonilla was offered 3.85 mil a year for 4 years before arbitration so
    maybe he'll talk the bucs into the same deal.
    
    Dan'l,
    I echo your sentiments about Van Slyke.  Truly one of the most exciting
    center fielders in the game.
    
    JaKe
    
92.31Duracels Away!SHALOT::MEDVIDsocial drinker, social everynightTue Mar 05 1991 11:3256
    For sale or trade, one slightly used NL MVP.  Low mileage, very good
    performance, tends to act up at times.  Has choke problems.  Reason for
    sale: not worth what we paid for it.
    
    Barry Bonds may have crossed the line yesterday that will make him even
    more hated in Pittsburgh than Dave Parker ever was.
    
    In case you didn't see it on ESPN, the events in Bradenton went
    something like this:
    
    	- Bonds getting into it on the field with the Pirates PR director.
    	  Bonds won't talk to the press or let photographers take pictures
    	  of him, but yesterday he had a private photographer taking
    	  some pics of him in action.  The PR director said the guy had
    	  to go since Bonds had stated his policy of no photographers
    	  earlier.
    
    	  Bonds got in the PR guy's face and was mother f-ing him left
    	  and right about who he was to tell HIM who he could and couldn't
    	  have on the field.  Most of the words out of Bonds' mouth had
    	  to be bleeped.  The PR guy was just doing his job and when he
    	  told Bonds to calm down, Bonds blew up even more.
    
    	- I don't know if the second incident was related to the first,
    	  but Bonds picked the wrong guy.  Apparently he was going at it
    	  with one of the Pirate coaches when Leyland walked onto the
    	  field, overheard the exchange, got into it right there in front
    	  of everyone with Bonds.  Most of that conversation was one big
    	  bleep, but one thing I did manage to pick up was Leyland saying:
    
    		"If you don't want to play, get your bleeeeeeeeeeep stuff
    	  	and get the bleeeeeeeeeep out of here.  I've got a 
    		bleeeeeeeeeeeep team to manage here and I'm not going to
    	 	have bleeeeeeeeeeeep like you bleeeeeeeeeeep."
    
    	  Later on in the clubhouse, Leyland put it bluntly: "I'm the
    	  goddamn manager of this team, and goddamnit I'm going to manage
    	  it,"  or something like that.  (He said that to the press.)
    
    	  And Bonds contradicted himself on SportsCenter when at first he
    	  said that this whole incident has nothing to do with losing
    	  arbitration.  Then a few minutes later, he said I just want to
    	  be paid what I've worked for...even if that's a dollar, I'll
    	  be more than happy.
    
    	  He said he also feels like Darryl Strawberry in New York.  Well,
    	  if he feels like Darryl Strawberry, smells like Darryl
    	  Strawberry, and acts like Darryl Strawberry, he must be...
    	  an asshole.
    
    Battery sales in Pittsburgh have skyrocketed in anticipation of opening
    day ceremonies. :-)
    
    	--dan'l
    	
    	
92.32QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Tue Mar 05 1991 15:0716
92.33CSC32::J_HERNANDEZI Drink, Therefor I am.Tue Mar 05 1991 15:465
    Trade him to L.A.   Hail, we'd even give Gott back.
    
    
    Mike a NL team in Denver would be great, then I can go see the Dodgers
    play.
92.34Bonds is going to get "coppertopped"SHALOT::MEDVIDsocial drinker, social everynightTue Mar 05 1991 16:3917
    The paper quotes Leyland as saying to the press, "I don't give a damn
    what his problems are, he's not going to run this camp.  ...He can just
    go home."  
    
    If you know anything about Jim Leyland, you know he's of mild temper. 
    This is really uncharcteristic of him.  And I've never heard him
    discipline a player in public before.
    
    Bonds better straighten up or he might be the sorriest player ever to
    wear black and gold.  Leyland will put the screws on him...maybe move
    him down in the order or have him lead off again (less RBIs).  That
    would hit Bonds where it hurts and Leyland knows this.
    
    Last years Manager of the Year will definitely win over the MVP...you
    watch.
    
    	--dan'l
92.35AXIS::ROBICHAUDIndustrial Strength NoterTue Mar 05 1991 16:486
    	That was one of the best spring training scenes to come out
    of camp.  I rate it ahead of the Hernendez/Strawberry "FotoFight"
    but slightly behind Boggs' "I found out I was addicted to sex on
    Geraldo" statement.
    
    				/Don
92.36I'm the |BLEEP|ing manager!STAR::YANKOWSKASLittle roller up along firstTue Mar 05 1991 17:132
    I'll agree /Don, that was a lollapaloosa...my wife counted 10 "bleeps"
    in about 7-8 seconds.
92.37COOKIE::RECURS::WAHLTue Mar 05 1991 18:0622
random thoughts --

I'd love to hear what Barry's dad had to say to him after all this stuff.

Leyland is faced with a really difficult problem right now.  This is where
we will see if he is an HOF caliber manager.  On the one hand, if he starts 
in with the Dick Williams "I'm the <bleep>ing manager no <bleep>ing player 
talks to me like that mess with me and I'll rip off your <bleeping> head and 
..." act, he runs the risk of making the rest of the team real sick of this
and looking for places to hide.  On the other hand, if he plays the Davey
"Darryl's understanding Dad" Johnson game, there's a whole bunch of other
effects which can cause the team to extend Spring training into April and May 
(ref: last year's Mets).  

Is there any player on the current Pirates team who can help Leyland out 
by telling Barry to sit up and shut up and make it stick?  It's times like 
this that managers would kill for a Don Baylor on their bench.  It's also 
times like this which prove Howard Cosell wrong -- managing baseball is 
not the easiest job in sports.

Dave W.

92.38Maybe the Everready guy could help. "Go ahead, knock it off."SHALOT::MEDVIDsocial drinker, social everynightTue Mar 05 1991 19:1320
>Is there any player on the current Pirates team who can help Leyland out 
>by telling Barry to sit up and shut up and make it stick? 
    
    I think Bonds' ego might be too big for this.  However, Wally Backman
    might have had a shot, but he's a Phillie now.  Bream too, but he's in
    Atlanta.  Bonilla is in the same boat so he won't say a thing. 
    VanSlyke is due up next year so he'll probably be quiet...not that he's
    smart enough to figure anything out anyway.
    
    Perhaps LaValliere.  Maybe Drabek.  But frankly, Barry is going to have
    to settle this within himself first.  Maybe a clonk on the head with an
    Everready might help.  8-)
    
    Maybe Jeff King will step forward as a leader, who knows.  Right now,
    losing all those minor league outfielders in the Phillie fiasco last
    season has the Pirates front office's back against the wall.  
    
    This team will be in the cellar in two years.  You watch.
    
    	--dan'l
92.39Duracells AwayECAMV3::JACOBSaddamHussein:The Mother of ALL LiarsTue Mar 05 1991 20:5439
    I just bought my season ticket in the left field seats, SO, if anybody
    has any coupons for Eveready, Duracell's or any other brand of battery,
    please send me the coupons, I'll be going thru a lot of batteries this
    season!!!!!       (many (8^)* 's)
    
    Leyland also told (Crybaby)Bonds that he(Leyland) has taken
    (Crybaby)Bonds' bleep for three years and he won't take it for a
    fourth.  
    
    Dan'l, the incident was all the same incident.  Bill Virdon, a spring
    training coach for the Pirates heard (Crybaby)Bonds giving the PR guy
    the word and came over to try and calm thing down, Leyland heard the
    commotion and showed up and the rest is history.
    
    The actual reason for the fracas is as follows.
    
    (Crybaby)Bonds has stated no interviews or pics.  A film crew from
    Pittsburgh was taking some general panamoric view shots of the facility
    where the Pirates hold spring training.  (Crybaby)Bonds, who was
    conversing with an ESPN photographer who is a friend of (Crybaby)Bonds,
    tried to order the film crew to stop filming him in the views.  The
    Bucco PR guy stated to (Crybaby)Bonds that the ESPN photog is
    prohibited from conversing with (Crybaby)Bonds during workouts, which
    (Crybaby)Bonds was not attending so he could talk to his buddy, and
    (Crybaby)Bonds flew off of the handle.
    
    My advise to the MORON who may be playing left field for the Bucs this
    year, WEAR AN ARMORED SUIT, and buy your kids some toys, you'll have
    enuf free batteries that you won't have to buy any.  
    
    
    EXTRA EXTRA EXTRA
    
    This just in, (Crybaby)Bonds IQ reported to be 2 points lower than his
    shoe size, film at eleven.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.40order your batteries earlyECAMV3::JACOBBleep you Bleeping BleeperTue Mar 05 1991 23:3125
    Heard this on the Myron Cope radio talk show tonite, from Myron
    himself, so consider it gospel.
    
    Seems that on the way back to Pittsburgh after getting trounced by the
    Reds, (Crybaby)Barry Bonds was sitting in the back of the plane eating
    pizza and bitching about players, by name, and their lack of
    accomplishment during the playoffs.  Included in these gripes were
    downright insults to the players involved.  Which makes me wonder, who
    the f_ck is (Crybaby)Bonds to gripe about the poor performances of his
    teammates when he HIMSELF, only went 1 or 2 for the playoffs and didn't
    contribute sh_t!!!!
    
    Back to the story. 
    
    It seems that R.J. Reynolds had enuf of this behaviour and turned
    around and told (Crybaby)Bonds to grow up.  (Crybaby)Bonds response,
    showing that his age is barely larger than his IQ, was to throw his
    pizza in Reynolds face.  Reynolds became livid and went after
    (Crybaby)Bonds, only to be restrained by 3 of his teammates.
    
    Shame he was restrained, I think a sound a__kicking could have possibly
    straightened the freakin' spoiled brat out.
    
    JaKe
    
92.41AXIS::ROBICHAUDHeySurgeonGereral,ThisBUD'sForYouWed Mar 06 1991 10:418
    	Acutally I feel Bonds is no different than say Roger Clemens
    or any of a host of younger players.  It's just Roger gets treated
    like royalty and his every whim catered to, while Bonds gets treated
    like any other player.  Fact is, lots of todays "superstars" are
    pampered jerks, and if you don't kiss the ground they stand on they
    take their ball and go home (i.e. file for free agency).
    
    				/Don
92.42The Slasher Battery Throwing VideoSHALOT::MEDVIDsocial drinker, social everynightWed Mar 06 1991 12:219
    /Don,
    
    You could probably write to the Pittsburgh Pirates Fan Club and get
    some battery throwing tips.  Maybe that's what Clemens needs.  He's big
    enough, how could you miss him?
    
    8-)
    
    	--dan'l
92.43CAM::WAYToonces, the SCRUMming CatWed Mar 06 1991 12:2414
When throwing the Duracell Copper Top, do you throw with the copper top
facing toward the target, or away from the target?

If you choose EverReady, can you throw that stupid rabbit instead?

What if I'd like to heave a DieHard?  Is that permissible?


Geez, I never knew being a Pirates fan was so physically demanding.
I thought all you had to do was sing "We Are Family"....

8^)

'Saw
92.44Split fingered coppertopSHALOT::MEDVIDsocial drinker, social everynightWed Mar 06 1991 12:356
    Frank, what an excellent idea.  Jake, you've got to follow up on this!  
    I'll pitch in for one of those Eveready Bunnies.  If you were to wing
    that onto left field on opening day, it would make sports highlight
    films all over the country.  What a message/warning for Bonds.
    
    	--dan'l
92.45COOKIE::RECURS::WAHLWed Mar 06 1991 12:546
My favorite Stupid Bond Trick was when he said during contract negotiations,
"Will Clark makes $15 million.  What's he ever done?"

Get a clue, man.

Dave W.
92.46MCIS1::DHAMELMass. residents add 5% Notes TaxWed Mar 06 1991 13:1611
    
    The Radio Shack chain has a "Battery of the Month Club" where you get
    a free battery of your choice just for walking in the door.  I'd go
    with the nine-volt, since those square corners can be very effective,
    and they don't tend to sail as much as the double A's.  Be careful
    loading up the spitter though, you can shock your tongue.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Dickstah
    
92.47CARROL::LEFEBVRERemember our fallen heroesWed Mar 06 1991 15:174
    Please tell me you guys are kidding about throwing batteries at
    baseball players.
    
    Mark.
92.48AXIS::ROBICHAUDHeySurgeonGereral,ThisBUD'sForYouWed Mar 06 1991 15:392
    	Come on Mark, why do you think they call the pitcher and catcher
    a "battery".  They're just axing for it!
92.49CBROWN::TIMMONSI'm a Pepere!Wed Mar 06 1991 15:445
    Oh oh, we have differences showing up in this "charged" situation.
    
    Perhaps we are "polarized"?
    
    lEe
92.50Deep sinker if you scuff the negative end 8-)SHALOT::MEDVIDsocial drinker, social everynightWed Mar 06 1991 15:579
    Mark, yes we are kidding...I think.  We are referring to an actual
    incident, however, of when Dave Parker was pelted with a battery (don't
    think it hit him) right after he signed his big, fat contract and then
    proceeded to get big and fat.  Pittsburgh hated him.
    
    But I think lofting an Energizer Bunny into left field would be totally
    cool and absolutely hilarious.  
    
    	--dan'l
92.51Seaver Speaks (Unwisely I might add...)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 06 1991 16:036
    "There are also times when you make an extra effort to pay a player
    who is important to his team.  According to the way [Bobby] Bonds
    played last year, yes, he would be one of them."
    
    - Former pitcher Tom Seaver on MVP Bobby Bonds's feud with the
      Pittsburgh Pirates' management.
92.52...or maybe it's just Atlanta syndromeSHALOT::MEDVIDsocial drinker, social everynightWed Mar 06 1991 16:1610
    FWIW, it's Barry Bonds.  Bobby is his dad.  But you are one of
    thousands to make that mistake...including 'The National.'
    
    One of the funniest moments was in Atlanta a few years ago.  I had
    seats right behind the Buc dugout and the announcer kept calling
    Bonilla 'Barry Bonilla' and Bonds 'Bobby Bonds.'  Both rolled their
    eyes in disgust every time their names were called.  It became a big
    joke after a while and the announcer never did catch on.
    
    	--dan'l
92.53Internally, no comparisonNAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 06 1991 16:1713
    
    I think a Sears Die-Hard catapulted by a professional hurler from 
    the Peanut Gallery would be the best option... 
    
    The difference between Clemens and Bonds is that while Roger may be
    selfish and arrogant to writers, photographers, and all other 
    outsiders, he seems to be well respected by his teammates and
    considered a "gamer" and team player by those around him.  From what 
    I gathered during last year's NLCS, you'd be hard pressed to find a 
    single Pirate who can even tolerate Bonds, much less respect him...
    
    glenn
    
92.54Seaver's rightSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsWed Mar 06 1991 16:3625
92.55Seaver's wrongRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 06 1991 17:209
    For him to make the comment he made at this time strikes as an
    endorsement of Bonds recent actions.
    
    I seriously doubt Terrific Tom wants to become attached to the extreme
    negative sentiment that's being attached to Mr. Bonds.  Hence, it was
    an unwise thing to say.
    
    
    - Chris
92.56SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Wed Mar 06 1991 17:258
    
    
    	It appears that Barry Bonds is following in his fathers footsteps
    in more ways than one!!  
    
    
    								bill
    
92.57EARRTH::BROOKSNah .... tax problems ...Wed Mar 06 1991 18:113
    I guess you mean by being well-traveled right Bill ?
    
    Because Bobby seem to be well liked and respected by his peers ....
92.58ECAMV3::JACOBWaaWaaBONDS=OLYMPICBATTERYEVADERWed Mar 06 1991 18:338
    'Saw, I tend to thro mine end over end.  Gonna line up my old
    motorcycle "Diehard" that died hard this winter.  (8^)* (8^0*
    
    I predict here and now that (Crybaby)Bonds won't make the trip north as
    a Bucco.  He'll be traded before the season starts.
    
    JaKe
    
92.59COOKIE::RECURS::WAHLWed Mar 06 1991 18:397
    Trade 'im to the Braves.  Canseco, Bonds and Neon Deion in the
    same lineup would give the West a run for their money and would
    make TBS the most entertaining superstation in baseball.
    
    If they don't kill each other first.
    
    Dave W.
92.60Like father, like son applies here...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 06 1991 21:1415
    > Because Bobby seem to be well liked and respected by his peers ....
    
    You pullin' our leg, Doc?  Bobby had many the run-in with managers,
    coaches, and players wherever he went.  After his initial run with San
    Francisco, Bonds played for seven different teams, lasted with the
    Angels for two seasons and *not more than ONE* for the other six teams.
    Year in and year out he was with a new team, if not twice in the same
    year.  That's amazing.
    
    I will say this: Bobby Bonds might have been the all-time best player 
    that everyone couldn't wait to get rid of...
    
    glenn
    
92.61No more VIP parking spots for you, Tom, you bad boySHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Mar 07 1991 03:1222
92.62Must have ice water in his veins...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 27 1991 13:1818
    Am I correct in hearing that Bobby Bonilla has again turned down an
    offer from the Pirates that would pay him $16 million over four years,
    including an immediate raise this season to $4 million from his 
    arbitrated salary of $2.4 million?  If Bonilla takes the field this
    season without putting a pen to that paper I'd have to say that he
    and/or his agent should be committed.  Is it really worth it for a
    player like Bonilla to take a chance to gain a couple of million 
    dollars over the span of four years?
    
    Bobby Bonilla is a very good baseball player.  Considering the total
    package, I don't think he's a *great* baseball player.  Even with many
    of the owners apparently on the brink of clinical insanity, I don't see
    Bobby Bonilla making $5 million a year.  Is it really worth all this to 
    get out of Pittsburgh?
    
    glenn
     
92.63STAR::YANKOWSKASPaul YankowskasWed Mar 27 1991 13:367
    re .62:
    
    Yup, you read that right Glenn...SportsChannel reported this morning
    that Bonilla is seeking a 4-year, $17.something million deal.
    
    
    py
92.64ECAMV3::JACOBHow It Got Here, I haven't a ClueWed Mar 27 1991 18:5014
    Bonilla doesn't have ice water in his veins, he's got it in his head.
    
    Last night's paper said that Bonilla's asking price was $17.9 mil for 4
    years BEFORE arbitration.  Bonilla said that now that he's gone thru
    arbitration, the asking price has gone up.
    
    Shame that these a__holes have become legends in their own minds and
    think they're worth so freakin' much cash.
    
    Guess maybe I should start a contest as per where Bonilla will be
    playing nexted year!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.65Justice has been served...and rewarded nicely34223::MEDVIDNo I was not pushing that timeMon Apr 08 1991 14:1522
    Pittsburgh signed VanSlyke to a three-year contract extension worth
    $12.65 million.  VanSlyke readily accepted the offer.  Believe me, with
    the antics of Bonilla and Bonds, Andy will be the darling of
    Pittsburgh.  By just picking up a pen and signing his name to what was
    a "fair" offer he has earned the people's respect.
    
    So fair is it that it makes VanSlyke the fourth-highest paid player in
    baseball.  
    
    I don't give a flying fart if the Bucs finish in the middle of the
    pack.  They've got their priorities straight by signing the best
    centerfielder in the majors.  If VanSlyke continues to improve on his
    hitting, he might become a major star in MLB.
    
    So long, Bobby.  So long, Barry.  Have fun being babbies somewhere
    else.  Bonds will be gone by June.  Bonilla will last the year in
    Pittsburgh and be hitting up a storm to boost his free-agency appeal. 
    If he doesn't perform, he might look back on his $16 million/four-year
    refusal as the worst mistake in his life...and I really couldn't care
    less.
    
    	--dan'l
92.66Killer "B's" killing themselvesECAMV3::JACOBHEY, gimme back my hair!!!!!Mon Apr 08 1991 18:1537
    Dan'l
    
    I agree with you that Bonilla could look back on the contract he passed
    up with regrets.  The 4 yr/$16 mil was a GUARANTEED contract.
    
    Now let's see, it's the middle of June and Bonilla is legging out a
    double, he slides into second and shatters his ankle, never is the same
    again and goes to the AL(alternate league) and spends his aging days as
    a DH(dork head).  
    
    The guy is involved in a crapshoot.
    
    Re Bonds.  Bob Smizik's column in the Pittsburgh Press was urging the 
    50,000 plus in the Stadium tonite NOT to BOO Bonds.  Said the guy has 
    righted himself after the much bleeped argument with Bil Virdon and Jim
    Leyland early in spring training.  
    
    Hell, if people want treat him like they treated Dave Parker, he could
    be Eveready'd before the end of the first inning tonite.  Wonder if
    he's going to wear armor under the uniform this year!!!   (8^0*
    
    I agree on your comments about Andy Van Slyke.  Van Slyke's agent
    initiated the "back-door" negotiations and refused to negotiate thru
    the media, as Bonilla has done all along.  Van Slyke called the
    contract "fair".  He thought he could get a better contract money wise
    by going the free agent route, but said that he has made a lot of ties
    here in Pittsburgh over the last five years and that he wanted to stay
    here.  His contract calls for a $1.4mil DECREASE in the last year.
    He said it offers the club some protection in case of a lockout or
    strike in the last year of the contract, also.
    
    Let the batteries fly!!!!!
    
    Many (8^)* 's
    
    JaKe
    
92.67ECAMV3::JACOBHEY, gimme back my hair!!!!!Mon Apr 08 1991 18:5810
    Beano Cook, self-proclaimed sports analyst and prognosticator, inferred
    today that the signing of Van Slyke, coupled with the failure to sign
    Bonilla, is an example of racism by the Pittsburgh Pirates.
    
      He inferred that the Pirates will have a higher attendance over the
    next 3 years because Van Slyke is in the outfield, therefore keeping at
    least one white in the outfield.
    
    JaKe
    
92.68Bucs and Drabek 0-1ECAMV3::JACOBBaldSpot Advertising Space For Rent/LeaseTue Apr 09 1991 01:3113
    Buccos took it on the chin tonite in their home opener.  Lost to
    Montreal 7-0.  Bucs only had one hit in the game, a single by Barry
    "WahWah" Bonds.  Doug Drabek took the loss while dennis Martinez got
    the win.  Martinez is now 8-2 lifetime vs. the Pirates.
    
    Montreal seems to always bring out the worst in the Pirates.  Last year
    the Pirates wer 5-13 vs. the Expos, and a couple of losses were late
    inning come-from-behind wins by the Expos.
    
    Bucs vs. Expos again tomorrow night(4-9-91).
    
    JaKe
    
92.69Best way to answer racism is ignore it, not feed it.SHALOT::MEDVIDNo I was not pushing that timeTue Apr 09 1991 11:4020
>    Beano Cook, self-proclaimed sports analyst and prognosticator, inferred
>    today that the signing of Van Slyke, coupled with the failure to sign
>    Bonilla, is an example of racism by the Pittsburgh Pirates.
    
    As much respect as I have for Beano, I think he's way out of line here. 
    Yes, there is accute racism in Pittsburgh, but not in this instance.  
    
    For some reason, ESPN was showing the Pirate game here in Charlotte
    last night.  (Thanks for nothing.)  The two announcers, one of which
    was Bill Robinson...both of which were terrible, gave details of the
    contract negotiations.  After the antics of Bonds and Bonilla and their
    respective agents, Pirates GM Carl Bahrger (sp?) asked VanSlyke's agent
    to keep things out of the media.  Both sides agreed to this and voila!
    
    Another interesting note is that Pittsburgh did indeed cheer Bonds and
    Bonilla.  There were boos also, but mainly cheers.  However, there was
    a tremendous difference in the cheer level when ever VanSlyke came to
    bat or caught a ball.  Told ya he'd be their darling!
    
    	--dan'l
92.70GO BUCS!!!!!!!!ECAMV3::JACOBBaldSpot Advertising Space For Rent/LeaseWed Apr 10 1991 23:2911
    Bucs beat the Expos last night 4-3, after trailing 3-0.  Kipper gets
    the win, Landrum the save.
    
    Bucs beat the Expos today, 6-3.  Zane Smith got the victory and pitched
    7 2/3 innings.
    
    The Bucs won the 3 game set 2-1 and it marked the first time the Bucs
    have done so in Three Rivers against the Expos since 1987.
    
    JaKe
    
92.71CELTIK::JACOBIs a Solar Panel Lacquer-able??Thu Apr 18 1991 15:2412
    Bucs beat the Mets last nigt 4-0 behind a one hitter by John Smiley.
    Smiley Allowed only one batter to reach base, and that was because
    Gary Varsho gave up on a fly ball and let it bounce over his head and
    it ended up being a double.  If Barry "Wah Wah" Bonds had been playing,
    the ball more than likely  would have been caught and Smiley "COULD"
    have pitched a perfect game.  Smiley retired the last 23 batters in
    order.  Helluva game for Smiley who is trying to regain his form that
    he seemed to lose after losing a fight with a "cab door"(according to
    Smiley) in the middle of last season.
    
    JaKe
    
92.72CELTIK::JACOBIs a Solar Panel Lacquer-able??Mon Apr 22 1991 11:048
    Bucs come back yesterday from a 7-2 deficit to tie the game in the
    ninth and send it into extra innings vs the Cubs.  Then after Andre
    Dawson hit a grand slam in the top of the 11th, they went into the
    bottom of the 11th down 12-7, but scored 6 runs in the inning to beat
    the Cubbies 13-12.
    
    JaKe
    
92.73CELTIK::JACOBWhore + Pygmy=Little F#$kerWed Apr 24 1991 11:1110
    Bucs beat the Expos lasted night, 7-3.  John Smiley gets the win, he's
    now 3-0 with ERA of 1.59.
    
    Andy Van SLyke and Barry "Wah Wah" bonds both hit 2-run home runs in
    the game.   The Bucs are still tied with the New Yuck Mutts for the NL
    East lead with 9-5 records.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.74CELTIK::JACOBSporting one Tremendous WoodieThu Apr 25 1991 11:2210
    Bucs prevail over Expos, 2-1 lasted night.  Doug Drabek finally broke
    his drought and got his first win, he is now 1-3.  Drabek allowed only
    one unearned run in 7-2/3 innings despite giving up 6 hits, 5 walks and
    hitting one batter.
    
    The Bucs remain tied for first with the Mutts.  The Bucs have won 5 in
    a row.
    
    JaKe
    
92.75ECAMV3::JACOBSolar Chia PanelSat May 04 1991 01:4911
    Bucs beat the Astros tonite. 1-0.  The game took all of an hour and 41
    minutes.  Can't remember the name of the Astro pitcher but he only gave
    up 2 hits, AND LOST.  Only run scored in the game was on a home run by
    Orlando Merced. 
    
    Zane Smith(3-1) pitched a 4 hitter and got the complete game and the
    shutout.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.76Bucs are now 16-9ECAMV3::JACOBGot to crack this ice and flyTue May 07 1991 02:398
    Bucs beat the Reds tonite to stop the two game losing streak.
    Vincente Palacios got the win.  He only gave up 3 hits in 7 plus
    innings but he walked 7 or 8 batters in the game before being yanked
    from th game.  Jay Bell hit a dinger for the Bucs.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.77ECAMV3::JACOBGot to crack this ice and flyThu May 09 1991 00:539
    Bucs beat the Reds tonite, 7-2, and swept the 3 game series.
    Zane Smith got the win.  Jay Bell hit an inside the park home run, and
    Lloyd McClendon and Jose Lind hit back to back homers also.
    
    Bucs are off tomorrow night(they play an exhibition game in Buffalo)
    and then they play the Braves over the weekend here in Pgh.
    
    JaKe
    
92.78AXIS::ROBICHAUDThu May 09 1991 10:559
	Heard on SportsCenter last night that some old lady who liked to go 
to Pirate games dressed as a bumblebee (to each his/her own) has been asked 
to stop doing so by Pirate management.  Seems like the organization feels 
that due to insurance considerations nobody should be allowed to go to a 
game dressed as a bumblebee, chicken, turtle, gorilla etc.  What is this 
world coming to when you can't attend a baseball game attired in the above.
Sheesh...

				/Don
92.79CELTIK::JACOBJUST SAY.....maybe!!Sat May 11 1991 01:4318
    Bucs beat the Braves and John Smoltz tonite, 5-2.  John Smiley(5-1)got
    the win and Stan Belinda got the save.  Orlando Merced and Lloyd
    McClendon hit round trippers for the Bucs.  Merced has been a pleasant
    suprize for the Bucs, filling the weakspot at first base with decent
    defense and good offense.
    
    Syd Bream, whom the Bucs let get away thru free agency, pinch hit in
    the 9th inning, the first time he has been to 3 Rivers since joining
    the Braves, received a standing ovation from the Pirate's fans, and
    proceeded to hit one out of the park to center field.  He got another
    standing ovation and a couple of encores.  The Pittsburgh fans showed
    that they were displeased that the Bucs lst Syd get away.
    
    The Bucs have now won 4 straight, and have the best record in the major
    leagues, at 19-9.
    
    JaKe
    
92.80CSCOAC::ROLLINS_RMon May 13 1991 11:401
	We'll be awaiting the weekend report ...
92.81Pittsburgh fans not as bad as everyone saysSHALOT::MEDVIDcould not hear or see for jealousyMon May 13 1991 12:5710
    Braves took two out of three from the Pirates over the weekend.  Drabek
    picks up his sixth loss after serving up a fat one in the 8th Saturday. 
    Both teams still in first place in their respective divisions.
    
    What the much-maligned Pittsburgh fans did for Sid Bream on Friday was
    very touching.  You don't see a standing O for many opposing
    players...especially twice, once when announced and then after he
    homers against you.  I think Sid appreciated every moment.  I sure did.
    
    	--dan'l
92.82ECAMV3::JACOBJUST SAY....maybe!!Wed May 15 1991 02:519
    Bucs beat the Astros tonite, 6-3.  Zane Smith gets the win, he is now
    5-1.  Bill Landrum gave up his first run of the season, in 15 inning of
    relief pitching.
    
    Bucs will either be up by 2 or 3 games, depending on what the Mutts do.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.83ECAMV3::JACOBWhaddya mean, yeast in my beard,doc??Fri May 17 1991 00:247
    The Bucs today traded pitcher Mike York to the Clevescum Indians for
    Mitch Webster.
    
    Anybody able to give the lowdown on Webster. 
    
    JaKe
    
92.84Bucco UpdateECAMV3::JACOBWhaddya mean, yeast in my beard,doc??Fri May 17 1991 01:4230
    Buc Update
    
    Jeff King is on the DL with a back problem.
    Bob Walk is back off of the DL, but is working in the bullpen right
             now.
    Doug Drabek, coming off his 22-6 Cy Young season is 1-6, and gave up 4
             runs in the first tonite, but has held off the Astros since.
    Jose Lind is day to day with a sore back.
    Barry Bonds can't hit right-handers so far this season.  Besides having
             an absolutely overall batting average, he has only one extra
             base hit off of a right hander this season.
    Orlando Merced is rapidly earning the first base job for the Bucs. 
             Despite going 0-4 last night, Merced has 13 hits in his last
             30 AB (.433 clip)
    
    
    The Bucs trailed last night, 4-0, but managed to come back and beat the
    Astros, 8-7.
    The Astros scored 4 runs off of Drabek in the first tonite, BUT,
    couldn't hold that lead and right now it is 4-4 in the 6th.
    By winning the first two games of the three game series in the
    Astrodome, the Bucs have assured themselves of winning their first
    series in the Astrodome since 1986.
    Should the Bucs win tonite and sweep this series, it would be the first
    3 game series sweep in the Astrodome for the Bucs since 1981, though, in
    1983 they swept a 4 game series.
    
    JaKe
     
    
92.85CELTIK::JACOBJUST SAY.....maybe!!Fri May 17 1991 02:487
    Bucs copmpleted 3 game sweep with second straight victory in which they
    came from 4-0 deficits to win.  Tonites score, Bucs 6 Astros 4.
    
    Doug Drabek gets the win and is now 2-6.
    
    JaKe
    
92.86Braves tomahawking BucsECAMV3::JACOBYeast Infection in My Beard!?!?!?!?!?Mon May 20 1991 19:169
    The Braves continued to beat up on the Bucs this weekend.
    
    They beat the Bucs twice and the third game was rained out.
    
    Bucs still 2 up on the Mutts.  They are off tonite.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.87MVP: Most Vain PeeheadSHALOT::MEDVIDwhen our worlds they fall apartThu May 23 1991 13:0812
    Barry Bonds really raised his free-agency clout last night.  Bonds,
    showoff that he is, has a habbit of slapping his glove two times on his
    thigh before catching a fly ball. 
    
    Last night he gets turned around on a deep fly to left.  He manages to
    get under the ball at the warning track, wacks his glove on his thigh
    twice, then before he can raise his glove, the ball hits the top of it
    and bounces away.
    
    Two runs score.  St. Louis beats the Pirates 5-3.
    
    	--dan'l
92.88CELTIK::JACOBFalling Stars, at the Pens handsSat May 25 1991 01:1128
    Bucs beat the Phillies tonite, 9-1.  6 run fifth was the turning point
    in the game.  Bonds and Bonilla both hit round trippers for the Bucs.
    
    Zane Smith gets the win, he's now 6-2.
    
    Bucs broke 2 game losing streak.  They had lost 4 of the last 5 games
    played before tonite.
    
    It's a race between Barry Bonds and Doug Drabek for the "Dave Parker
    Busted Year after getting Big Bucks" award.
    I personally vote for Barry Bonds at this point, after his bonehead
    "slap the glove on the thigh twice then drop easy flyball and let 2 runs
    score play" the other night.  He also is hitting below his weight, but
    way over his IQ.  
    
    Drabek, on the otherhand, has pitched well of late, but has had his
    problems with the Bucco defense holding onto the ball for him.  See
    "Barry Bonds" above for further info.  Drabek is 2-7, but throwing
    well.
    
    Bonds is just trying too hard and not concentrating enuf.
    
    Bucs are on top of the NL East with the Cardinals holding onto second,
    1-1/2 games back, depending on what they do tonite.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.89ECAMV3::JACOBT know how Donks Fans FeelTue May 28 1991 19:4411
    Bucs had a good weekend.  Swept the Phillies.
    
    Yesterday, Doug Drabek returned to his Sie Jung form, pitching a one
    hitter vs. the Cardinals.  The one hit he gave up came in the 7th.
    
    First the Pens, next the Bucs will win the NL east, NL Pennant, then
    the world Series, returning Pittsburgh to the "City of Champions"
    stature.
    
    JaKe
    
92.90Break up the BucsGOBUCS::COOLEYThe Pittsburgh Fan in D.C.Tue May 28 1991 21:5210
    
>>    First the Pens, next the Bucs will win the NL east, NL Pennant, then
>>    the world Series, returning Pittsburgh to the "City of Champions"
>>    stature.
    
    Amen.  And the thing that's real scary (for the rest of the N.L.) is
    that Van Slyke, Bonds, and Drabek haven't done much so far this year.
    And King is hurt.
    
    Warren
92.91Battlin' BucsCELTIK::JACOBThe Cup resides HereThu May 30 1991 04:5110
    The Bucs won their SIXTH in a row tonite, 6-0 over the Cards.
    
    Zane Smith pitched a one hitter.
    
    Bucs have the best record in baseball at 29-15.
    
    Bucs lead in the NL East is at 4 games over the Mutts.
    
    JaKe
    
92.92CELTIK::JACOBDO NOTHING....and then RestSat Jun 01 1991 01:329
    Bucs just beat the Phillies, 5-1.  Jeff King returned from the DL and
    hit a dinger.  Bob Walk got the win and is 1-0.
    
    Bucs have now won 7 in a row and their record is 30-15 and is best in
    the Majors.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.93ECAMV3::JACOBDo nothing...Then Rest!!Mon Jun 03 1991 19:1416
    Bucs swept the Phillies this weekend, Smiley gets his 8th victory, now
    is 8-1.
    
    Bob Walk got the victory yesterday vs the Phillies, in a relief type
    mode.  Barry Bonds hit a homer and drove in 3 runs, two with a double
    in the ninth, to help the Bucs to a 5-3 win.  Doug Drabek struggled
    again, working with the bases full in two innings and stranding 8
    runners thru the first 4 innings.
    
    The Bucs have now won 9 in a row and have the best record in the Major
    Leagues, plus something like a 6 game lead in the NL East.
    
    17-15 here we come!!!!  (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    
92.94ECAMV3::JACOBDo nothing...Then Rest!!Mon Jun 03 1991 19:168
    
    >>17-15 here we come!!!!  (8^)*
    
    Make that 147-15, not 17-15
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.95CELTIK::JACOBDO NOTHING....and then RestWed Jun 05 1991 02:5212
    Bucs 9 game winning streak ended tonite at the hands of the Giants.
    Final score 5-3.  Zane Smith, who pitched a one-hitter last time out,
    didn't last thru the fifth inning and took the loss.  Smith is now 7-3.
    
    Barry "Wah Wah" Bonds drove in all three Pirate Runs with a double and
    a home Run.
    
    Last I heard the Mutts were winning, which would leave the Bucs up by 5
    games, should the Mutts win tonite.
    
    JaKe
    
92.96ECAMV3::JACOBDo nothing...Then Rest!!Thu Jun 06 1991 18:5917
    Bucs beat the Giants lasted night, 7-3.  Bucs scored 5 in the first and
    added 2 more in either the 2nd or 3rd, forgot which, and pretty much
    coasted home with the win.
    
    Bob Walk got the victory and is now 3-0.  Oddly, his three victories
    have come in the lasted 5 Pirate games, 2 starts and one relief
    appearance.
    
    Jeff King hit a 3 run homer in the first to cap off the 5 run inning.
    
    Kelly Downs lasted 2/3 of an inning for the Giants.
    
    Anybody know what the New Yuck Mutts did lasted night...Whatabout the
    Cardinals????
    
    JaKe
    
92.971909, 1925, 1960, 1971, 1979, 1991GOBUCS::COOLEYThe Pittsburgh Fan in D.C.Thu Jun 06 1991 20:2716
>>    Anybody know what the New Yuck Mutts did lasted night...Whatabout the
>>    Cardinals????
 
NY lost.  Not sure about St.Louie.  The biggest lead in Baseball is back to
6 full games.

Now that the Cubs, Expos, and Phils have fired their managers, can the Mets
and Cards be far behind?  I know there's already lots of talk in NY.  Any in
STL?

Has there ever been a division (or league) where every team but one has fired
their manager?

Warren

92.98Bucs drop 2 of 3 to GnatsECAMV3::JACOBDo nothing...Then Rest!!Fri Jun 07 1991 02:189
    Bucs lost to the Giants tonite, 6-3.  The loss leaves their record at
    34-17, still best in the Majors.
    
    John Smiley took the loss and is now 8-2.
    
    The Mutts lost tonite so the Bucs lead is still 6 games.
    
    JaKe
    
92.99I"M OUTTA HERE....ON VACATION..YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAMV3::JACOBDo nothing...Then Rest!!Sat Jun 08 1991 02:4811
    Doug Drabek improved his record to 4-7 tonite, beating the San Diego
    Padres, 1-0.  Bob Patterson, Stan Balinda, and Bill Landrum also took
    part in the shutout.  The Bucs record is now 34-17 and the lead,
    depending on what the Mutts and Cards do, will be at least 6 games
    after tonite.
    
    
    Outta here for a week
    
    JaKe
    
92.100ECAMV3::JACOBIs it DECrap or De Crap???Thu Jun 27 1991 00:0416
    The Bucs have sipped recently.  They are in the midst of a 4 game
    losing streak and their recent Left Coast trip was a disaster.  Their
    left-handed starters(Smiley, Zane Smith, Randy Tomlin) haven't won
    since June 3rd.
    
    Jeff King is out at least until the All-Star break, but if he needs
    surgery for his problematic back, he will be out for the rest of the
    season.  Andy Van Slyke and Bobby Bonilla are both playing but neither
    is playing at 100%.
    
    As of 6 tonite, the Bucs still hold a 4 game lead over the Cards in the
    NL East.  Hopefully they can break out of this "Everybody is either
    hurt at once or in a slump at the same time" garbage.
    
    JaKe
    
92.101Bucs trying to get back on their winning waysCELTIK::JACOBSince 1st I Had Worst I Had Was GoodFri Jun 28 1991 02:409
    Bucs beat the Cubs 7-6 yesterday.  Bob Walk got the win and is now 6-0.
    
    Tonite, the Bucs scored four runs in the bottom of the ninth to beat
    the Cubs, 4-3.  Unfortunately, the Cards beat the Phillies today also
    so the Bucs lead is still 4 games.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.102Back on track...for now.SHALOT::MEDVIDBoogies With BeaversFri Jun 28 1991 12:1712
    Make that:
    
    >    Tonite, the Bucs scored four runs in the bottom of the ninth 
    >    WITH TWO OUTS to beat the Cubs, 4-3. 
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    That's the second time they've done that to the Cubs this season, the
    other one being one of the greatest games in a long long time for any
    baseball fan when they scored six runs in the bottom of the 11th on
    April 21.
    
    	--dan'l
92.103CELTIK::JACOBSince 1st I had, Worst I had Was GoodSat Jun 29 1991 02:3313
    Bucs beat the Expos tonite in Olympic Stadium with the hole in the
    roof.  Final was 6-1.
    
    Zane Smith gets the win, Stan Belinda finished up.
    
    Jay Bell went 3-5 with a home run.  Bell leads all of the National
    League shortstops in RBI with ~37.  He went 5-5 the other night vs. the
    Cubs.
    
    The Cards won tonite also so the lead in the NL East stays at 4.
    
    JaKe
    
92.104Cubs tie game in bottom of ninth...then what?SHALOT::MEDVIDkiss them for meTue Jul 02 1991 11:346
    Anyone know who won the Pirates Cubs game last night.  I watched until
    the end of the 12th, but then it got pasted my beddy-bye time.  Bucs
    should have won this one and deserved to lose...just wish they woulda
    done so in 10 or 11.
    
    	--dan'l
92.105Yeah, Bucs finally returned a favor...NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Jul 02 1991 11:446
    
    Cubs won in 13, 6-5.  Two outs, Belinda (Stan, not Carlisle) hits
    Berryhill, walks Grace, and Sandberg singles in the game-winner.
    
    glenn
    
92.106Bucs win again...Have won 6 of last 7CELTIK::JACOBTue Jul 02 1991 21:0014
    The Bucs won today, beating the Cubs 13-4.  The Bucs had 22 hits,
    including 14 singles, 3 triples, 3 HR's and a double.
    
    Mike Lavalliere and Bobby Bonilla each had 4 hits.
    Gaary Varsho hit the first 2 home runs of his career and had 6 rbi. 
    Andy Van Slyke had a HR and a triple.  Barry "Wah Wah" Bonds had 3 rbi.
    
    Doug Drabek pitched the complete game and got the win, making his
    record 7-8.  He has won 5 of his last 6 decisions.
    
    Bucs play the Cubs again tomorrow afternoon at Wrigley Field.
    
    JaKe
    
92.107Bye-bye BucsSHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Tue Jul 02 1991 21:093
 The NL East race is toast.
 
 Bob Hunt
92.108CELTIK::JACOBNot as thunk as you drink I amThu Jul 04 1991 00:0413
    Bucs beat the Cubs again today, 11-7.
    
    Andy Van Slyke hit a home run for the third time in last three games.
    
    Zane Smith got the win.
    
    Lloyd McClendon also hit a homer for the Bucs.
    Bucs have won 7 of their last 8.
    
    GO BUCS!!!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.109Maz' moment...NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Jul 09 1991 12:1911
    
    Hey, did you guys see fat old Bill Mazeroski jack that 350-foot home
    run out of SkyDome yesterday in that old-timers (sorry, "legends")
    exhibition?  This is a 55-year-old man, wider than he is tall, born
    within a month of my father (and within a few miles away), fer cripes 
    sake!  Somehow I can't picture dear old Dad, who's in much better shape
    than Maz, even getting the ball out of the infield, in the air or on
    the ground...
    
    glenn
    
92.110STAR::YANKOWSKASPaul YankowskasTue Jul 09 1991 12:349
    Yeah, I saw that game Glenn.  Kind of ironic that Maz parks one after
    the announcers spend half the game talking about the 1960 World Series
    Game 7 HR.
    
    John Mayberry and Boog Powell don't look like they've missed many meals
    lately...
    
    
    py
92.111ECAMV3::JACOBSince 1st I had, Worst I had Was GOOD!Tue Jul 16 1991 01:4021
    The Bucs swept the Reds (4 games) over the weekend.
    
    Randy Tomlin pitched hiis first major league shutout and fourth career
    complete game and 5 hit the Astros tonite as the Bucs won their 6th
    straight game by a score of 8-0.
    
    This win, coupled with the Mutts losing to the Giants, 4-3, puts the
    Bucs lead in the NL East at 4-1/2 games.
    
    The Bucs record is now 53-31.
    
    The 2-3-4 hitters for the Pirates tonite were a combined 8-12 with all
    eight of the Bucs RBI:
           
                    Jay Bell   3-5, 1 rbi
                    Andy VanSlyke  2-3, 4 rbi (Van Slyke has 20 rbi in the
    last 16 games the Bucs have played)
                    Bobby Bonilla  3-4,  3rbi.
    
    JaKe
    
92.112Bucs 54-31ECAMV3::JACOBD.A.M.M.=DrunksAgainstMadMothersWed Jul 17 1991 18:4413
    Bucs won lasted nite 6-4 over the Astros.
    
    Zane Smith gets his 10th win.
    
    Gary Varsho's pinch hit 2-run dinger broke a 3-3 tie to put the Bucs
    ahead.
    
    Bucs have won 7 in a row.
    
    Anyone know what the New Yuck Mutts did lasted night??????????
    
    JaKe
    
92.113Bucs win when it counts...all the timeSHALOT::MEDVIDBack to the Heavyweight JamWed Jul 17 1991 19:008
92.114Bucs are 58-34, best in the Majors!!!CELTIK::JACOBSwallowing Saliva causes CancerThu Jul 25 1991 18:5723
    Bucs won last night, 7-4.  Smiley wins his 12th(12-6).
    Bucs have taken 2 of 3 from the Braves, only losing Monday night while
    I was at the game.
    
    Bucs now have 3 pitchers with 10+ wins,  Smiley(12-6), Zane Smith, and
    Drabek(10-9).
    
    Jeff Bannister got his first major league hit the other night.  He was
    diagnosed with bone cancer in his ankle in 1982.  The doctors wanted
    to amputate the leg but he said NO.  Fought and beat the cancer and 
    continued his dream to someday play in the Major Leagues.  A few years
    later, while catching for some minor league team, he was involved in a
    collision on a play at the plate.  He suffered 3 crushed vertebrae in
    his neck and was paralyzed for 10 days.  After numerous operations and
    fusing of the neck vertebrae, his doctor pronounced to him that his
    neck was stronger than it was previous to the collision.  He said the
    first time that he was involved in a collision afterwards, he got up
    real slow and prayed on the way up that everything still worked.
    Guts.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.115Bucs=59-34, at least a 6 game lead in NL eastCELTIK::JACOBSwallowing Saliva causes CancerSat Jul 27 1991 02:436
    Bucs beat the Astros tonite, 8-1.  Don't have any details of the game
    other than that, though.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.116Does he rhyme with Oscar Mayer?GOBUCS::COOLEYThe Pittsburgh Fan in D.C.Sat Jul 27 1991 18:087
    
    I was out of touch for about a week and came back and noticed some guy
    named Wehner,3B had 5 hits the other night.  Where did we get him?
    And how do you pronounce his name?  Can I stop worrying about King
    not coming back and Bobby Bo at 3rd base?
    
    Warren
92.117CELTIK::JACOBSwallowing Saliva causes CancerMon Jul 29 1991 19:0115
    It's pronounced Way-ner.  He's from Carrick, a suburb of Pittsburgh.
    Came up from the minors.  Has a weird batting style but gets the job
    done, and is not too shabby defensively either.  Made a few extra-fine
    plays at third.
    
    
    Bucs took 2 of the 3 game set from the Astros this weekend.  Lost
    yesterday, 9-7.  Zane Smith had his third straight HORRIBLE outing. 
    Didn't last thru the 4th again.  Somebody kick him and wake the guy up.
    
    Jay Bell had 10 or 11 hits in the 3 games against the Astros, including
    3 home runs.
    
    JaKe
    
92.118Bucs pitching wheels coming ungluedCELTIK::JACOBSwallowing Saliva Causes CANCER!!Tue Jul 30 1991 02:2320
    Bucs lose both ends of a doubleheader to the Braves tonite, 7-5 and
    5-3.
    
    Drabek loses the first game and is now 10-10.
    
    Smiley loses second game and is now 12-7.  Stan Belinda gave up back to
    back HR's in the eighth inning to put the game "out of reach".
    
    Pirates pitching in the last three games, all losses, has not been able
    to put the ball across the plate.  Drabek walked 5, Smiley 4, Belinda
    2.
    
    Bucs are 0-4 in Atlanta this year and have 2 more games against the
    Braves tomorrow and Wednesday, then will be glad to leave Atlanta.
    
    Depending upon what the Mutts do tonite in LA, the Bucs lead will be
    either 5-1/2 or 6-1/2 games.
    
    JaKe
    
92.119CSC32::GL_JOHNSONMandelaMarcusMalcolmMartinMarleyTue Jul 30 1991 12:448
    
     Mets won lasted night 5-1.  Cone pitched a 3-hitter for his 10th
    win.
    
      Seems like the Mets & Pirates haven't played at all this year.
    When will they finally meet?
    
    						 glen j.
92.120Mets-Bucs series next weekSTAR::YANKOWSKASYou watch too much TV kidTue Jul 30 1991 13:3213
    re .119 (glen j), remaining Mets-Pirates games:
    
    3 games August 6-8 in NY
    3 games August 16-18 in Pittsburgh
    3 games September 24-26 in NY
    3 games September 30-October 2 in Pittsburgh
    
    
    Jake -- have you heard anything about the Pirates perhaps making a
    trade for Kansas City 3B Kevin Seitzer?
    
    
    py
92.121Braves should play pirates at home all year!CELTIK::R_QUINNTue Jul 30 1991 17:3912
    
    How about the Bravos!!!  That pair of wins did their us cubs fans who
    live in Atlanta quite a favor.  I'm not a huge braves fan but I root
    for them when they are not playing the cubs.  The cubs are about 12 1/2
    out but they have plenty of games left against the pirates and the rest
    of the division.  Cubs about to make a run at the Bucs .
    
    It is an amazing turn around to see the braves beat the bucs because
    the bucs ususally come down here and beat the braves head in the sand,
    or georgia red clay.
    
    Roy 
92.122re .120...Thanks PaulCSC32::GL_JOHNSONMandelaMarcusMalcolmMartinMarleyTue Jul 30 1991 17:431
    
92.123No Sammy awards for the next few days...SHALOT::MEDVIDboys have wants, girls have needsTue Jul 30 1991 18:1318
    And the picture doesn't get any rosier for the Pirates today and
    tomorrow as they've got two minor leaguers pitching (one was called up
    intentionally and the other replaces an injured Bob Walk).
    
    Not to make excuses, but VanSlyke is out of the lineup and that's a
    pretty big blow for the Pirates.  Offensively he was on a streak, and
    defensively...well, there's none better.  In the loss to the Astros the
    other night, two balls were hit over Gary Varsho's head in center that
    VanSlyke would have had.  Those led to the winning runs.  I don't
    understand why Leyland doesn't move Bonds to center and put Curtis
    Wilkerson in left.
    
    But every team hits a slump and it looks like it's the Pirates' turn. 
    It's much better to lose out of the division than in it.  I just hope
    this doesn't last as long as the Reds' faulter.
    
    	--dan'l (who'll be at Three Rivers on the 18th to see the Mets
    		 lose)
92.124Still a Reds fan at heart (but I'm a baseball bandwagon jumper)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jul 30 1991 18:267
    I'll be rootin' for the Braves to stomp the Pirates (again) tomorrow
    night.
    
    GO ...........  BRAVES!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
92.125CELTIK::JACOBSwallowing Saliva Causes CANCER!!Tue Jul 30 1991 18:5115
    
    >>Jake -- have you heard anything about the Pirates perhaps making a
    >>trade for Kansas City 3B Kevin Seitzer?
    
    
    >>py
    
    
    Haven't heard anything about it here in Pittsburgh, but then again,
    with the ongoing remodeling going on at the house, haven't seen many
    newspapers or listened to the radio that much.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.126CAM::WAYPee Wee = Manson minus swastikaTue Jul 30 1991 19:0314
>    Haven't heard anything about it here in Pittsburgh, but then again,
>    with the ongoing remodeling going on at the house, haven't seen many
>    newspapers or listened to the radio that much.
    

Oh sure, Jake, start working on the "Regular Guys Strip Bar" without
me!

I'll see you in court buddy!!!!


8^)
'Saw    

92.127CELTIK::JACOBSwallowing Saliva Causes CANCER!!Tue Jul 30 1991 20:1325
    
>>Oh sure, Jake, start working on the "Regular Guys Strip Bar" without
>>me!

>>I'll see you in court buddy!!!!

    Nah, I wouldn't start the place without ya.  I ain't got that kind of
    money.
    
    Actually, I own a 100 year old house that  I started to remodel, but
    everytime I  start a new project, 3 more things pop up that need done.
    Like removing a sheet of panelling to find plaster falling off of the
    wall.  So I start removeing the bad plaster only to find that it's all bad,
    And some of the wall studs are in lousy shape.  Found a nice brick wall
    behind one of the walls, though, and decided to fix up the wall.  Spent the
    whole weekend.  Got major blisters the probably look like the ones PeeWee
    has on his palms, but mine are from REAL work.

    As soon as we raise some capital, we'll start work on the "Regular Guys
    Strip Bar", and if it takes off, maybe we can sell franchise rights!!
    
    
    JaKe
    
    
92.128CAM::WAYPee Wee = Manson minus swastikaWed Jul 31 1991 10:507
Oh, okay....


Sounds like a job for Steve and Norm....  This Old House in Pittsburgh!


'Saw
92.129Injuries and babies killing the BucsSHALOT::MEDVIDboys have wants, girls have needsWed Jul 31 1991 11:1217
    After a major rain delay, the Bucs and Braves started playing again
    around 10:00 last night.  Around midnight I was headed for bed as the
    Braves racked up 4 runs in the 6th and 6 more in the 7th.  The Mets
    were losing 3-1 to LA at this time.
    
    What were the final scores of both games?
    
    Pirate pitching is weak.  Landrum is slumping.  Zane Smith has been
    getting knocked around.  Walk went on the DL.
    
    Pirates had a ragtag lineup in there last night with Redus in center,
    McClenden at first, Wilkerson in right, and Prince catching.  The new
    kid at 3rd, Wehner, finally made an error.  And to top it all off, Jay
    Bell's wife is due any minute and as soon as the labor pains start,
    he's gone and replaced with a rookie.
    
    	--dan'l
92.130last nights scores P/A & L/N.WLDWST::RCARRUTHERSWed Jul 31 1991 11:368
    Re -1
    Not a happy night for Pittsburg fans, but then again the bright side is
    that the Mets lost also.

         Atlanta 10   Pittsburg 3    -    Los Angeles 3   N.Y 1

                                   Richard
92.131besides everything under the sunMAXWEL::CHILDSHe even danced with Maryln-NO WAY!Wed Jul 31 1991 11:377
                              <<< Note 92.129 by SHALOT::MEDVID "boys have wants, girls have needs" >>>
                                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 I know what boys want, but what do girls need?

 ;^)

92.132CELTIK::JACOBWhichHitMoreBalls-RosesBats/HudsonsChin?Wed Jul 31 1991 18:5424
    Dan'l
    
    Wehner did make an error lasted night, BUT, the guy also went 4 for 4,
    and got on on a walk also.  So, out of 5 trips to the plate, he got on
    base 5 times...not too shabby...The error came in the 6 run seventh,
    and wasn't the reason they lost it.  
    
    Rookie(just up from the minors and on his way back down today) Paul
    Miller was called up specifically to start lasted nights game.  
    He pitched 5 complete innings of 3 hit baseball until he got in trouble
    in the sixth.  He walked the leadoff hitter of the 6th, then gave up a
    single, then walked the 3rd batter to loda the bases.  Leyland yanked
    him in favor of Landrum and the fllodgates opened.  Landrum walked the
    next batter to force in a run and then gave up a couple of hits, by the
    time the inning was over, the Braves had the lead for good.
    
    The 6 run 7th, with 5 of the 6 runs being earned, didn't help matters,
    either.  The injury train hath stopped at the Pirates gate and they
    better get healthy in a hurry cause the Mutts will be breathing down
    their backs soon.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.133Tame them F#$%ing Braves, will yaCELTIK::JACOBHEY PEEWEE, BUY A VCR!!!Thu Aug 01 1991 02:5413
    Bucs drop 5th straight to da Braves, 8-6.
    
    The Pirates had a 6-1 lead and the Braves got two 3 run homers.
    
    The Bucs are headed out of Atlanta and into St Louis where they
    hopefully can get back on the winning track.
    
    The Braves swept the Bucs season series in Atlanta, winning all 6
    games.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.134What a nightmare series!!!SHALOT::MEDVIDboys have wants, girls have needsThu Aug 01 1991 11:4417
    Well, it's confirmed.  Deon Sanders is as big a show off,
    rub-it-in-your-face a$$hole in baseball as he is in football.  He hit
    the go-ahead homer and as it sailed out of the park he took a wide
    turn, hit first with a sideways stride, and continually banged his hand
    to his batting helmet in a "wake me up, did I do that" manner.  I was
    hoping Lind or Bell would trip him.
    
    The clock is ticking for Sanders because someone is going to clean his
    for good one of these Sundays in the NFL.  Let's hope it happens during
    the preseason so we don't have to watch this stuff through December.
    
    VanSlyke will be back Friday.  Don Slaught should be back soon after. 
    Now if the Pirate pitching would break out of its slump, especially the
    middle relief, around this time, Pittsburgh fans have little to worry
    about.
    
    	--dan'l
92.135May be a stupid question, but I want to knowMTHOOD::JOYNERGLDid I do that?Thu Aug 01 1991 16:214
    I have a stupid question.  Why are the Pirates sometimes called
    the Bucs?!
    
    Glen.
92.136Not a stupid question...SHALOT::MEDVIDboys have wants, girls have needsThu Aug 01 1991 16:345
    Bucs is short for Buccaneer, another name for a Pirate.  I get asked
    that question about three times a year so it's not stupid.  Pittsburgh
    has abominated even further by calling them the Buccos.
    
    	--dan'l
92.137CELTIK::JACOBHEY PEEWEE, BUY A VCR!!!Thu Aug 01 1991 19:066
    Anybody know where the Pirates keep their buccaneers???
    
    Under their Buckin' Hats!!!!!(8^0*
    
    JaKe
    
92.138Now, I have to get the coffee of my screenFDCV06::KINGIf the shoe fits... BUY IT!!!!!!!!!!!!Fri Aug 02 1991 12:193
    Thanks JAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am rolling!!!!!!!!!!!1111
    
    REK
92.139CAM::WAYCall her up on the spank lineFri Aug 02 1991 12:5211
>  <<< Note 92.138 by FDCV06::KING "If the shoe fits... BUY IT!!!!!!!!!!!!" >>>
>                -< Now, I have to get the coffee of my screen >-
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


You know, if DEC was smart, they'd make terminals with a kind of glass
that coffee could clean.  That way, when we spew coffee all over the
screen, we'd actually be something useful.....

8^)

92.140CBROWN::TIMMONSI'm a Pepere!Fri Aug 02 1991 15:215
    Geez, and I always thought buck-an-ear was expensive corn.
    
    Ya never know, ya know?
    
    lEe
92.141It was in the stirrups!!!SHALOT::MEDVIDboys have wants, girls have needsMon Aug 05 1991 16:037
92.142CELTIK::JACOBI LUV CATS-they taste like chickenThu Aug 08 1991 01:3713
    Da Bucs lost tonite to The New Yuck Mutts and "Toot" Gooden, 7-1.
    
    Zane Smith, for the 5th consecutive outing, didn't last until the 6th
    inning.  Got nailed for 4 runs in the 5th, then the Mutts got to
    Vincente Palacios in the 6th for 3 more runs and the game was history.
    
    The Mutts broke their 7 game losing streak and are now 6-1/2 games out
    of first.  Depending on what the Cardinals do, they will be either
    5-1/2 or 4-1/2 games out after tonite.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.143CELTIK::JACOBSqueeze My Lemon 'til the juice runs...Fri Aug 09 1991 01:1418
    Dem Dam Bucs lost again to the Mutts 4-3 today.
    
    Drabek, now 10-11, didn't last thru the third, he pitched 2-1/3 innings
    to be precise.
    
    The Bucs have lost 10 of their lasted 12.
    Their starting pitching in that stretch has sipped big time.  Zane
    Smith can't seem to pitch past the 5th anymore, Drabek gets clobbered
    in the first 2 or 3 innings, and then either gets yanked or settles
    down.  In the games where the starting pitchers have turned over leads
    to the bullpen late in the game, the bullpen has squandered the lead
    with the utmost of ease.
    
    HELP
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.144SAT question of the day....OZARDZ::WASKOMFri Aug 09 1991 13:267
    And the answer is:
    
    Bucs are to NL as Red Sox are to AL.
    
    Sorry, Jake (in tones from the charlie the tuna ads of long ago)
    
    A&W
92.145CELTIK::JACOBSqueeze My Lemon 'til the juice runs...Sat Aug 10 1991 02:069
    Bucs drop another one, they have now lost 11 of their last 13, to the
    Cards tonite, 5-1.  John Smiley started and didn't get thru the fifth
    inning, giving up 4 runs.
    
    Bucs lead is now down to 4 games over the Cards, and 5-1/2 over the
    Mutts.
    
    JaKe
    
92.146CELTIK::JACOBNOW OPEN, JaKe's Deep Fried CathouseTue Aug 13 1991 11:5724
    Sheeeeeeit, if things keep going the way they are, I'll have to step
    into the Crow Cafe at the end of the season and order up a heaping
    helping of the bird for some of the things I said earlier in the season
    about Barry Bonds.
    
    Bonds is following his MVP season, crybaby spring training, and
    horrible slump in April and May with nothing but another MVP caliber
    season.  
    
    Lasted night he hit 2 2-run homers to pace the Bucs to beat the
    Cardinals, 4-3 and increase their NL East lead to 7 games.  The second
    homer came in the bottom of the 11th inning with the Bucs trailing 3-2
    and won te game.
    
    Bonds is 2nd in the league in RBI, is hitting nearer .300 every day,
    and making things happen.
    
    
    The Bucs are ahead of their record attendance pace set last year, and
    figure to beat that attendance figure, (2.08 million).
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.147Let's put the Phil's back where they belongGOBUCS::COOLEYThe Pittsburgh Fan in D.C.Tue Aug 13 1991 21:0110
Well, the Buccos are 6-0 so far against the Phils this year.  And I seem to
recall that Drabek owns the Phils - at least he did last year...

So what am I trying to say - time for this Phillie streak to stop.  A good
Phillie fan is a depressed-cause-their-team-actually-blows Phillie fan.  

Hopefully the Bucs can squeeze any hope out of them this week.

Warren
92.148CELTIK::JACOBJaKe's Deep Fried Cat HouseWed Aug 14 1991 11:179
    Dem Buccos broke the Phillies 13 game winning streak lasted night,
    winning 4-3.  Doug Drabek got the W and is now 11-11.  
    
    Bucs lead stands at 7 games, the Cards beat the Mutts, who are now
    9-1/2 games back.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.149Haven't hated the Bucs in ages; maybe it's time to renewSHALOT::HUNTWho invented liquid soap and why ???Wed Aug 14 1991 13:516
92.150(8^)CELTIK::JACOBJaKe's Deep Fried Cat HouseWed Aug 14 1991 14:1017
92.151CELTIK::JACOBBudweiser, Breakfast of ChampionsThu Aug 15 1991 15:5217
    The Bucs continued their dominance over the Phillies lasted night,
    making them 7-0 vs the Phils this year.  The Bucs have won the last 14
    games between the 2 teams.
    
    John Smiley got his 14th win, and Barry Bonds robbed John Kruk of a
    2-run homer by scaling the left field wall and reaching over to make
    the catch, then doubling the runner off of first base.  Bonds also had
    an RBI double in the game.  Attendance was 42,000+, and the Bucs are
    now ahead of the record setting pace of lasted year.
    
    Tonite is the last game of the 3 game series with the Phillies, and
    since I'm going to the game, the Bucs will probably lose.  The Bucs
    have lost every game that I've gone to in 3 Rivers this year.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.152I feel goodGOBUCS::COOLEYThe Pittsburgh Fan in D.C.Thu Aug 15 1991 22:1022
92.153got a medal there too...... CSTEAM::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Fri Aug 16 1991 01:349
    Hey Warren, doncha consider the Penn_relay's_annual_Fashion_Show_at_
    the_330_2nd_Level to be of SOME value????
    
    Bested colors *I* ever seen!!!
    (not to mention the rah-rah's???)
    
    Kev
    
    
92.154I love hating New York!!!SHALOT::MEDVIDtime is eternalMon Aug 19 1991 14:3116
92.155OPUS3::JACOBJaKe's Deep Fried Cat HouseTue Aug 20 1991 19:028
    Bucs are in Philly tonite if the rain stops.
    
    THe Pirates swept the Mutts this weekend in 3 rivers.  They have won 8
    of their last 10 after breaking out of that horendous slump.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.156Or was JaKe at the Vet?SHALOT::MEDVIDso drowned you were angelsWed Aug 21 1991 12:0019
92.157GOBUCS::COOLEYThe Pittsburgh Fan in D.C.Wed Aug 21 1991 13:2914
 RE:

 >>   	     Figured the mistique of the Stanley Cup
 >>   	     had worn off and the Pirates needed my support more.
 
It hasn't worn off for me!  Whenever I'm feeling down (like last night after
the ph&^*&cking phillies game)  I just tell myself that: Hey, the Pens won
the Stanley Cup!  They rule the hockey world!  Then I feel better.

As for the bucs, I do wish I had more confidence in the bucco bullpen.  
What about this Mason guy?  Think Leyland will use him in the later innings.
I've seen him twice and he looked pretty good.

Warren
92.158CELTIK::JACOBWhere's Honeysuckle Divine dese Days?Wed Aug 21 1991 18:4120
    
    >>   <<< Note 92.156 by SHALOT::MEDVID "so drowned you were angels" >>>
    >>                      -< Or was JaKe at the Vet? >-
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                               |||||||||||||||||||||||
    
    Nope Dan'l,  Had the noght off from work but was at home with the wife
    and munchkins.  in fact, I didn't even have the game on the radio or
    telly.
    
    Now for the good news for the Bucs, when the playoffs start, and it
    will take one helluve choke job by the Bucs to not win the East, I
    won't be able to attend any of the games at 3 Rivers 'cause I'll be in
    Colorado Springs.  Ditto for the World Series.  Leaving the 'burgh a
    month from tomorrow and returning on the 19th of October.  SO, I won't
    be able to work my jinx by showing up for any games.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.159Landrum/Belinda=Blown games by comitteeCELTIK::JACOBWhere's Honeysuckle Divine dese Days?Thu Aug 22 1991 20:3817
    Dem freakin' Bucs just lost their third straight to the Filthydelfia
    Phillies, 4-3, in 11 innings.  The Bucs had trailed 3-0 but tied it
    only to lose it in the 11th.
    
    The Bucs lost the first two games of the series in the ninth, and the
    last one, as stated before, in the 11th.  RELIEF PITCHING IS SIPPING
    BIGTIME!!!!!
    
    The Bucs are now 8-4 vc the Phillies.  The Phillies have won the last 4
    meetings between the 2 teams.
    
    THe Bucs play the Giants in 3 Rivers Stadium tomorrow night, Doug
    Drabek will be on the mound for the Bucs.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.160Gag! Cough! Ack! Wheez! Choke!SHALOT::MEDVIDinbuilt guilt catches up with youTue Aug 27 1991 11:241
    
92.161OPUS3::JACOBMy Golf Handicap?? Showing up!!!!Tue Aug 27 1991 19:2218
    -dan'l--
    
    I see by your "reply" you caught some of the Bucco game lasted night.
    
    Bill "F$%king" Landrum blew another one.  
    
    Is it time for the Pirate Mgmt to make some kind of move to try and
    obtain someone who can come in in the late innings and actually get
    somebody out, whilst protecting a lead?????
    
    Between Landrum and Belinda, I don't know who has blown more leads in
    the past few weeks.
    
    The Bucs sure are trying to give St. Louis the NL East.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.162Can they even recover psychologically?SHALOT::MEDVIDan inbuilt guilt catches up with youTue Aug 27 1991 19:2713
>    Between Landrum and Belinda, I don't know who has blown more leads in
>    the past few weeks.
    
    JaKe, you forgot to qualify that with:
    
    	"with two outs in the 9th inning."
    
    In four of their last seven games, the Pirates have been an out away
    from winning and have lost.  That is not the way to win a division, let
    alone a pennant, and a world series.
    
    	--dan'l
    
92.163Could Roger Mason fill the bucco's stopper void?.GOBUCS::COOLEYThe Pittsburgh Fan in D.C.Wed Aug 28 1991 13:0417
>    Between Landrum and Belinda, I don't know who has blown more leads in
>    the past few weeks.

Well, How about this Roger Mason guy?  I've only seen him twice - both in the
middle innings - and he looked pretty impressive.  He had a save last night.

Well the Parts start their final west-coast trip today.  Last time they were
4-6. They have 2 in LA, 3 in SD, 3 in SF. This trip is usually a good measure
of their eventual success.  I think the last time they ruled the west was in
1979...  St. Louie has to make the trip too, though.

I'm still feeling pretty good about the Bucs chances. They should/could have
blown it open by now, but when it does get close, they have sucked it and 
played better all year long.  I will feel better if they survive this thip
though.

Warren on Sports
92.164OPUS3::JACOBMy Golf Handicap?? Showing up!!!!Wed Sep 04 1991 00:1915
    Bucs are up by 7 games over the Cards.  So far on the Left Coast road
    trip, they are 3-1, losing Sunday to the Padres.  The Bucs are 78-52.
    
    Tonite, Bob Walk faces the Giants.
    
    Yesterday, Stan Belinda goth the win althoug he couldn't keep the
    Giants from tying it in the eight.  The Bucs scored one in the top of
    the ninth to take a 9-8 lead and they won it by that score.
    
    
    BUCS IN'91!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.165CELTIK::JACOBHoneysuckle KNOWS Ping Pong ballsWed Sep 04 1991 06:2717
    Dem Buccos beat the Giants tonite(this AM.), 5-3 in 10 innings.
    
    A correction to -.1, the Bucs are 6-1 on the road trip, with I think 2
    games left before returning to the 'Burgh.
    
    Tom Prince homered in the ninth to tie the game.
    
    The Cardinals losted to the Dadgers also, so the Pirates lead is now 8
    games.
    
    The Bucs have put playoff tickets and World Series(optimism is
    wonderful, ain't it) on sale and my only regret is that I won't be in
    Pittsburgh for either.  Guess I'll have to watch the games on the tube
    from Colorado!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.166Baseball Woodie on the riseCELTIK::JACOBHoneysuckle KNOWS Ping Pong ballsThu Sep 05 1991 00:398
    John Smiley won his 17th game vs 6 losses today, beating the Giants. 
    Mason finished out the game.  Steve Bouchele(sp?) and Andy Van Slyke
    hit homers as the Bucs beat the Giants for the third consecutive game.
    The Bucs are 7-1 on the West Coast trip and their record now stands at
    80-52.
    
    JaKe
    
92.167It's spelled Booshell.VAXWRK::NEEDLEMoney talks. Mine says &quot;Good-Bye!&quot;Thu Sep 05 1991 01:060
92.168Pirate Update and StatsCELTIK::JACOBSex is DIRTY..when done properlyFri Sep 06 1991 00:3377
    
    >>                      -< It's spelled Booshell. >-
    
    Actually Jeff, it's spelled Buechele.
    
    Bucs are 80-52, leading the NL East by 9-1/2 over the Cards who lost
    today.
    
    John Wehner underwent surgery today to remove a ruptured disk in his
    back.  It is not yet known whether he will return this season.
    
    The Pirates were off today but start a four game series with the
    Dodgers in 3 Rivers stadium tomorrow.
    
    Barry Bonds needs 3 rbi to become the first Pirate to have back-to-back
    100 rbi seasons since Willie Stargell did it in 1972-1973.
    
    PIRATES STATS:
    
    BATTING:
    		AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI    AVG
    Wehner	106	15	36	7	0	0	7      .340
    Bonilla	485	83	151	38	4	16	84     .311
    Heaton	13	0	4	1	0	0	1      .308
    McClendon	130	19	38	5	0	7	20     .292
    Bonds	427	78	124	21	4	22	97     .290
    Merced	339	71	98	16	2	7	42     .289
    Buechele	21	4	6	1	0	1	5      .286
    Espy	42	2	12	2	0	1	8      .286
    LaValliere	283	23	80	9	1	3	34     .283
    Bell	510	83	139	28	5	13	55     .273
    Prince	22	3	6	2	0	1	2      .273
    Slaught	172	11	46	13	1	1	23     .267
    Lind	403	41	105	13	4	3	41     .261
    VanSlyke	416	76	107	16	7	15	77     .257
    Patterson	4	1	1	0	0	0	0      .250
    Redus	204	39	51	9	1	7	20     .250
    Varsho	153	20	38	10	2	3	20     .248
    King	109	16	26	1	1	4	18     .239
    Tomlin	43	5	9	1	0	0	2      .209
    Wilkerson	146	16	27	7	1	0	11     .185
    Drabek	71	6	13	1	0	0	1      .183
    Smith	56	3	10	3	0	0	7      .179
    Walk	30	2	5	1	0	1	4      .167
    Smiley	57	2	7	0	0	0	3      .123
    Palacios	14	0	1	0	0	0	0      .071
    Belinda	7	0	0	0	0	0	1      .000
    Garcia	5	0	0	0	0	0	0      .000
    Landrum	4	0	0	0	0	0	0      .000
    Kipper	1	0	0	0	0	0	0      .000
    Rodriguez	1	0	0	0	0	0	0      .000
    Mason	0	1	0	0	0	0	0      .000
    Bullet	0	0	0	0	0	0	0      .000
    
    PITCHING:
    		w   l	s	ip	h	er	bb	so	era
    Mason	2   0	2	20	11	3	2	12    1.35
    Rodriguez	1   0	2	6-2/3	4	1	5	6     1.35
    Tomlin	8   4	0	136	117	41	43	78    2.71
    Landrum	2   4	17	65-2/3	63	20	15	39    2.74
    Walk	7   2	0	86	69	28	29	53    2.93
    Drabek	13  11	0	191-2/3	206	71	51	110   3.33
    Smiley	17  8	0	170	166	63	38	109   3.34
    Smith	12  10	0	178	193	67	24	90    3.39
    Belinda	4   4	14	67-1/3	42	27	31	65    3.61
    Patterson	3   1	2	55	52	23	12	50    3.76
    Palacios	6   3 	2	73-1/3	61	31	35	57    3.80
    Heaton	3   3	0	60	58	26	17	27    3.90
    Kipper	2   2	3	52-1/3	59	26	18	30    4.47
    
    Home Attendance(64 dates)
    1991:  1,650,203(avg. 25,784)
    1990:  1,595,377(avg. 24,928)
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.169Bucs in ReliefGOBUCS::COOLEYThe Pittsburgh Fan in D.C.Fri Sep 06 1991 12:2018
Thanks for the stats Jake.

I find this one pretty interesting:

    		w   l	s	ip	h	er	bb	so	era
    Mason	2   0	2	20	11	3	2	12    1.35

I'd like to Leyland use Mason in a few situations where the game is on the
line to see how he does.  Because these numbers bother me just a bit:

    Landrum	2   4	17	65-2/3	63	20	15	39    2.74
    Belinda	4   4	14	67-1/3	42	27	31	65    3.61

Do they print the new "blown saves" saves stat in the Press?

With STL losing last night the magic# is done to 21.

Warren
92.170one place I've seen itSTAR::YANKOWSKASLithuania is free again!Fri Sep 06 1991 13:228
    re .169:
    
    >	Do they print the new "blown saves" saves stat in the Press?
    
    USA Today uses it in their box scores.
    
    
    py
92.171CELTIK::JACOBSex is DIRTY..when done properlySat Sep 07 1991 00:458
    Bucs lost the first game of the doubleheader tonite, 4-3.
    
    The Bucs scored 2 in the eighth to tie it, 3-3, but Stan Belinda gave
    up a home run to Mike Scoscia and the Bucs went down the drain.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.172CELTIK::JACOBSEX IS DIRTY..only when done properlySat Sep 07 1991 02:4512
    The Bucs won the second game of the doubleheader, 3-1.  Zane smith
    pitched the complete game, and gave up 3 hits, winning his 13th game of
    the season.  It was his 4th complete game of the season.
    
    With the split in the twinbill, depending on what St Louis does in San
    Diego tonite, the Bucs will either be up by 9 or 10 games.
    
    Jay bell hit his 14th HR in the second game.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.173GOBUCS::COOLEYThe Pittsburgh Fan in D.C.Mon Sep 09 1991 14:3325
The Bucs dropped 3 of 4 to Dodgers but maintained a 9.5 game lead over STL.

The magic# is down to 18 with 26 games remaining, all against the NL east.
They're 41-23 against the NL east so far this season.  40-32 against the west.
They're 41-27 at home and 40-28 on the road.

The Bucs record by team so far:

	CHI  8-6
	MON  9-3
	NY   8-4
	PHL  8-4
	STL  8-6

	ATL  3-9
	CIN 10-2
	HOU  8-4
	LA   5-7
	SD   7-5
	SF   7-5

The only losing record is against ATL and LA.  Great.  Why couldn't the Reds
repeat?

Warren
92.174MAGIC # 17, and maybe lowerCELTIK::JACOBSEX IS DIRTY..only when done properlyMon Sep 09 1991 23:2111
    The Bucs won today in a wind swept game in Chicago, not sure of the
    score but I think it was 12-10.
    
    The Bucs had a 6-0 lead at one point in the game, then squandered it
    with their illustrious relief pitching staff.  They entered the ninth
    inning down 9-7 but Orlando Merced hit a 3-run homer to put the Bucs
    up.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.175"Hitting Homers (like) Hell" maybeSHALOT::MEDVIDhe starts to shake &amp; coughThu Sep 12 1991 01:355
    Pirates are on ESPN tonight putting the finishing touches on the Cards. 
    What does the 'H' that they are sporting on their right shoulders stand
    for?  Did somebody die?  That hasn't been there all season has it?
    
    	--dan'l
92.176CELTIK::JACOBItTakesAColdOneToHeatThingsUp!!Thu Sep 12 1991 02:1213
    Bucs won 3-1.  Don't have any details of the game, though.
    
    >>What does the 'H' that they are sporting on their right shoulders stand
    >>for?  Did somebody die?  That hasn't been there all season has it?
    
    >>	--dan'l
    
    John Hallihan(sp?) the Pirates equipment manager and clubhouse
    supervisor(or something like that) died today.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.177CELTIK::JACOBItTakesAColdOneToHeatThingsUp!!Fri Sep 13 1991 01:106
    If'n the Buccos go .500 for the rest of the season, the Cards will only
    be able to lose 1 or 2 games if they are to catch the Bucs.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.178Magic # is now 6CELTIK::JACOBItTakesAColdOneToHeatThingsUp!!Thu Sep 19 1991 19:0510
    Bucs beat the Cards lasted night, 6-5 on Cecil Espy's sac fly in the
    ninth.  The Bucs lead the Cards now by 11-1/2 games, their biggest lead
    since 1972.
    
    Barry Bonds became the first Pirate since Willie Stargell(1973 & 1974)
    to drive in 100 or more runs in 2 consecutive seasons.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.179Magic # is down to 4CELTIK::JACOBItTakesAColdOneToHeatThingsUp!!Fri Sep 20 1991 03:4211
    Dem Buccos came from behind in the bottom of the ninth to win it
    tonite.
    
    The Bucs entered the ninth trailing 1-0 to the Cards, they scored one
    run and then Curtis Wilkerson blasted a grand slam and the Bucs won it
    5-1.
    
    Wish i was going to be here for the World Series!
    
    JaKe
    
92.180Magic # is now "3"CELTIK::JACOBItTakesAColdOneToHeatThingsUp!!Sat Sep 21 1991 01:5317
    The Bucs lost tonite to the Phillies, 8-3.
    
    When the roster gets pared down to 25 for the playoffs, look for Bob
    "Round Tripper" Kipper to not be on it.  Kipper of late has been giving
    up homers left and right, and the Bucs have to get rid of 2 pitchers
    come the playoffs.  i figure Vincente Palacios to be the other cut.
    
    The Bucs did get one step closer to clinching the NL East tonite,
    though, cause the Mutts beat the Cards, 1-0.
    
    The race between the Cards and the Bucs this year resembled the Pirates
    vs. Mets of 3 years ago, when the Bucs stayed close to the Mets until
    the second week of September, then quietly faded from the race leaving
    the Mets to take the title.
    
    JaKe
    
92.181Bucs NL East ChampsCELTIK::JACOBMe&amp;MySolarPanelInColoradoSpringsMon Sep 23 1991 17:3820
    ********THE PIRATES WIN THE NL EAST*************************
    
    By beating the Phillies yesterday, the Bucs won the NL East for the
    second consecutive year.  They are the first team in the National
    League to win consecutive division titles since both the Dodgers and
    Phillies did it in '77-78.
    
    The Bucs now have a record of 91-59, best in the majors, and now can
    sit back and watch to see who their victims will be in the NLCS.
    
    I'm hoping that Leyland doesn't play all of the extras for the lasted
    10 games and plays the regualrs most of the time so's they can maintain
    their sharpness.
    
    BUCS ARE GOIN' ALL THE WAY IN '91!!!
    
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.182Lasted chance ???SHALOT::HUNTRumblin', bumblin', stumblin' ...Mon Sep 23 1991 17:439
92.183Parade in Oct...unless it snowsHPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Mon Sep 23 1991 17:503
       Congrats Jake, and as Dan woulda said, I've always been a closet
    Bucs fan!!1
                                 Denny
92.184Hope they Hit the 100W markMR1PST::CBULLS::MBROOKSMon Sep 23 1991 17:548
    Your a Closet Pirates fan too hey denny...Being the Huge BaseBall
    fan I am (can proberbly name about 1/2 the teams but not even 1 player
    from each) I only watch the sox's and if they done make the Playoffs
    I dont watch any baseball at all.  But You have to have teams in other
    divisions and the Pirates have the Best team logo next to the chicago
    bulls and the Blackhawks... SO I say Go Pirates (Best BaseBall Logo):-)
    
    							M_Air_Brooks
92.185HPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Mon Sep 23 1991 17:575
    > Your a Closet Pirates fan too hey denny...
    
       Absolutely!! I think BobHunt has the right idea on this frontrunning
    Biz.
                                      Denny
92.186AXIS::ROBICHAUDHomer,Plato,Voltaire,McMurtryMon Sep 23 1991 19:401
    	What a coincidence, I'm a closet Pirates fan too!
92.187Ya, I always liked the Pirates tooAXIS::CHAPPELCurly Q. LinkTue Sep 24 1991 13:001
92.188Memories, memoriesCSLALL::TIMMONSI'm a Pepere!Tue Sep 24 1991 14:585
    In memory of JOJ:
    
    WOW!  Love them Bucs.  They've always been one of my favorite teams!
    
    JoP
92.189HPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Tue Sep 24 1991 15:434
       Welcome aboard lEe. Bob Ryan had a good story about the Pats today.
    He mentioned his FRAA (Front-Runners Assoc. of America) card. Looks
    like we need to get some in here too!
                                       Denny
92.190Go Bucs.CUBIC7::DIGGINSThirst N'Howl Roolz!Tue Sep 24 1991 16:348
The Bucs, the bucsters, buckeroo, buckerooski, the bucs stops here, 
bucmania, buczilla, buckbuck, uncle buck, bucking bronco, bucaholic,
bucinstien...I've allway's liked the Bucs!



Steve
92.191he bucked one and Tim bucked twoHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelTue Sep 24 1991 16:370
92.192Ya beat me to it Lee! :-)CSC32::GL_JOHNSONGett off!Wed Sep 25 1991 01:094
    
       JoP would be proud of youse guys!  
    
                                                 glen j.
92.193JUPITR::PARTEEJ'o''n' H'ndry''s DTN's 297-26'3''Wed Sep 25 1991 15:249
    
    
    How have the Bucs done against LA this year?  I know they've struggled
    against Atlanta...  Anybody know the specific head-to-head records?
    
    
    Charlie
    (formerly "Lemieux est le mieux")
    
92.194Means nothing, but...SHALOT::MEDVIDI'll find myself as I go homeWed Sep 25 1991 15:474
    
    Dodgers have beaten the Pirates 7 0f 12 this year.
    Braves have beaten the Pirates 9 of 12 this year.
    
92.195Bucs Ticket UpdateCELTIK::JACOBPikes Peak or &lt;a&gt; Bust, SundayThu Sep 26 1991 15:2210
    Of the 400,000 tickets available for the 4 playoff and the 3 world 
    series games, the Pirates have sold 313.197 thru Monday.
    
    47,000 tickets have been sold for the Oct 9th NLCS opener.
    
    
    DIH
    
    JaKe
    
92.196;^)CHIEFF::MACNEALruck `n' rollThu Sep 26 1991 15:257
92.197(8^)* (:^)*CELTIK::JACOBPikes Peak or &lt;a&gt; Bust, SundayThu Sep 26 1991 16:226
    Hardy Freakin' Har, Mac!!!
    
    DIH
    
    JaKe
    
92.198HPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Thu Sep 26 1991 17:562
       What's the holdup Jake? In most places they sell out in hours.
                                    Denny
92.199CELTIK::JACOBMummifiedManInAustriaReallyJimmyHoffaThu Sep 26 1991 18:0711
    
    >>   What's the holdup Jake? In most places they sell out in hours.
    >>                                Denny
    
    Probably 'cause I didn't buy any tickets cause I'm in Colorado!!
    (8^)*
    
    DIH
    
    JaKe
    
92.200Required reading for T(wists everything his way)CELTIK::JACOBLoad SpentWed Oct 23 1991 22:3299
CITY'S BLACK EYE FADING ALREADY
reprinted from The Pittsburgh Press, 10-22-1991

By 

Gene Collier

	What follows is perhaps an unnecessarily close look at a black eye, the
one Pittsburgh got from the final line of the final box score of the final 
National League game of the season.

A---46932.

	It represents more than 11,000 empty seats, and social critics
everywhere, from this squeaky chair to San Francisco to USA Hooray to the New
York network towers, decried it in tones appropriate for some dark mental rot
that had infected the local populace.
	As the post-season approached, the Pirates had roughly 407,000 tickets
to sell for four playoff games and three World Series games.  The fact is,
Pittsburgh baseball fans bought about 99.6% of them.  The World Series games
were sold out more than two weeks in advance.  Game 1 of the playoffs was
watched by the biggest Pittsburgh baseball crowd ever, until Game 2 outdrew it
by a couple of hundred,  and game 6 drew more than 54,500 after a weather
forecast of rain and temperatures in the 40s.
	Still, though they failed to purchase less than one-half of 1 percent
of the total postseason tickets, a black eye was sustained, just as you can get
a black eye even when you are hit by less than one-half of one percent of the
actual surface of a 2 by 4.
	As with most black eyes, this one was real avoidable, and the fact that
it wasn't avoided still says something that's not too promising, but how close
it came to being avoided might at least provide some psychological ointment to
whomever might need it.
	First, the Pirates faced a critical decision on how to distribute
playoff tickets with a face value of $40, a 33% increase from the 1990 price
and a figure which they have no control.  The National League fixes that price. 
In most situations, tickets are sold in strips, not on an individual game
basis.  You want game 1, you buy a strip of tickets for all home games, game 1,
game 2, game 6, and game 7.
	The Pirates say they thought this:  Because of the recession and their
desire to see as many people see as many games as possible, they would make the
tickets available on an individual ggame basis.  They wouldn't make you buy
something you didn't want, like game 6 for whatever reason, to get something
you did want, like game 2, for example.
	That might have been the sum and total intent of their policy, but it
might also have been that had everyone who wanted a ticket been forced to buy
four, they would have been looking at four embarrassing crowds instead of one.
	Implicit in this plan, they knew, was the real possibility they could
get stung in Game 6 and/or Game 7 because it's so hard to market those games
before the playoffs start.  You might not be able to delivir them.
	That was the Pirates' mistake, however large or small or in between.
	When the Pirates won game 5 one week ago yesterday in Atlanta, though,
they still had 48 hours to sell game 6, for which they got an adequate 54,508
on a cold night.  But when the fellas lost game 6, they had barely a business
day to sell game 7.
	Fans miscalculated the flow of the series as well.
	Game 6 featured Atlanta's Steve Avery, against whom the Pirates had
trouble leaving the infield in Game 2, against an injured Doug Drabek, but fans
put almost no stock in the possibility of a Game 7.
	"If we sold 7,000 tickets for game 6 after the fifth game," said
Pirates vice president Rick Cerrone, "we sold 700 for game 7."
	Had the Pirates drawn merely 53,000 for game 7, they would have
announced the largest attendance for one city in a postseason playoff since
1959, more than 222,000 for four games.  They would have told you that not
since the Los Angeles Dodgers drew three crowds in excess of 90,000 to The
Coliseum for games 3,4,and 5 of the 1959 World Series had one city drawn more
in a postseason series.
	But they fell short with 216,320, 6,000 short of the four games that
drew some 222,000 in St. Louis for the 1987 NL Championship series.
	Pittsburgh's baseball fans bought nearly 2,500,000 tickets(2,065,302
were used) in the regular season without the incentive of a pennant race after
Aug. 15, then bought nearly 407,000 postseason tickets, including the World
Series that Wouldn't.
	That's nearly 3 million tickets, hardly the profile of a bad baseball
town, so whoever said that is a certifiable idiot.  Oh, I said that.
	No need to thank me.
	What happened to Game 7 was that the fans were likely too tapped out,
and emotionally too wiped out, to fill the vacuous building one more time,
although the filled 80 percent of it.
	What this says about the missing fans for game 7 is only that they made
a judgement call on whether what they thought were the remaining tickets for
Game 7 were worth the price.
	Those people decided, wuite logically, and for whatever combination of
dozens of what I truly think are legitimate reasons, that Game 7 was not.
	So, Why the Black Eye?????
	It's this.  In almost every other big-league city, if not every other
big-league city, logic would not carry the day of game 7.  Passion would, and
they would fill the place.  Passion would rewrite the wuestion from "Are the
remaining tickets for game 7 worth the price after all this outlay and
heartache and frustration?" to "Do I want to be in the ballpark when the local
nine win the pennant??"
	There's your black eye, Pittsburgh, but hey, it doesn't look that bad;
it's starting to fade already.
	Does Pittsburgh love baseball right now? Probably so.  Is it psychotic
about baseball? No.
	I only bring the whole thing up again because I'm afraid that psychosis
might one day be the price of survival.                Gene Collier

JaKe

92.201Gene Collier is destined for national syndication - great writingSHALOT::MEDVIDthere are monsters there are angelsThu Oct 24 1991 11:431
    
92.202CELTIK::JACOBLoad SpentThu Oct 24 1991 17:588
    --dan'l
    
    I agree with ya on Collier being headed to the big time.  I look
    forward every day to his columns.  Lots of laughs interjected with the
    trufe.
    
    JaKe
    
92.203CAM::WAYGo Wahoos!Fri Oct 25 1991 10:444
Collier writes almost as well as I do.......


8^)
92.204CSLALL::TIMMONSHELP SET PROFILEFri Oct 25 1991 14:234
    Good thing you got EMT training, Saw, in case you break your arm
    pattin' yourself on the back!  :*)
    
    lEe
92.205CELTIK::JACOBBare It and GrinWed Nov 13 1991 19:2912
    The Bucs made another offer to Bobby Bonilla in the lasted few days.
    It was something like $18.5 million for four years with an option year
    in year 5 worth $4 or 4.5 million.  That's either $22.5 or 23 million
    for 5 years.  The moron turned it down.
    
    Look for the Bucs to come up with another offer in the nexted week. 
    Also look for Bonilla to sign for some ludicrous amount of money that
    he is not really worthy of.  Hope he hits .092 nexted year.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.206GENRAL::WADEGimme the beat boysWed Nov 13 1991 19:538
    
    JaKe,
    
    	I hope he hits .092 too..............FOR THE BUCCOS!
    
    	Go Reds! :^)
    
    Clay
92.207CELTIK::JACOBBare It and GrinWed Nov 13 1991 22:3711
    
    >>	I hope he hits .092 too..............FOR THE BUCCOS!
    
    Claybone:
    
    Bonilla won't play for the Bucs nexted year, guaranteed!!!!
    He'll get some big time contract in New York or California and then
    proceed to have a horrible 3 or 4 years.  It's the pattern.
    
    JaKe
    
92.208CSC32::GL_JOHNSONU R What U IsThu Nov 14 1991 02:5012
    .205
    
    JaKe,
    
       You got the right numbers(.092), only in the wrong 
    order.  He'll hit .290
    
    
    
       For the METS!  :-) :-) :-)
    
    						 glen j.
92.209STAR::YANKOWSKASAny knucklehead can scoreThu Nov 14 1991 12:139
    I believe the offer in .205 also included a $1 million signing bonus.
    
    If owners are willing to pay outrageous salaries to free agents these
    days, you can't fault a Bonilla or any other player in his situation
    for trying to get every last buck the market will bear.  (I'll agree
    with glen j.'s prediction that Bonilla will end up with the Mets.)
    
    
    py
92.210get 'm outta hereGRANPA::RFAGLEYthings that make you go hmmmm...Sun Nov 17 1991 00:107
    Personally, I think Bonilla is a liability on defense, and only
    slightly better than Van Slyke with a bat.  Let's spread that money
    around... Lind, Bell, Merced.
    
    Later Bobby... it's been surreal...
    
    Rick
92.211GRANPA::DFAUSTDon't drink the KoolaidSun Nov 17 1991 20:2814
    Onme of the fist stops in the Bobby Bonilla Tour across the USA 1991 was
    in Philadelphia Saturday. He visited with Phiilies President Bill Giles
    and went to Lenny Dykstra's house. The Phillies termed the meetings
    "positive" and made what was called a "competitive" offer. It is
    beleived that the offer was in the range of $ 25 million over 5 years.
    
    Dykstra showed Bonilla around the area where Lenny lives (the Main
    Line, just outside of Philadelphia). Apparently, Bobby was looking for
    an area to buy a home, in case he signs with the Phils.
    
    I wouldn't rate it more than a 25% chance.
    
    Dennis
     
92.212FDCV06::KINGBe nice to me, I'm a Pheresis Donor!!Sun Nov 17 1991 23:213
    Dennis, I disagree.. I would put the Pills chance about 40%...
    
    REK
92.213No bitterness here, Eh??CELTIK::JACOBR.I.P, Badger BobTue Dec 03 1991 02:039
    Bonilla signs with the Mets for undisclosed amount of "Too Damn Much"
    money.
    
    The guy ain't worth $26-30 Mil.  hope he falls flat on his dipsh!t
    face, greedy SOB.  For that matter, hope the Mutts finish last in the
    NL East next year.
    
    JaKe
    
92.214CAMONE::WAYThe King of the Droods(tm)Tue Dec 03 1991 09:524
I heard on the radio this morning it was 29 mil.....


Sheesh.
92.215MONGUS::BRYDIEHoward Roark laughed.Tue Dec 03 1991 11:383
    
     Bobby Bonilla did what 99.44% of us would have done if someone
    offered us $29 million to play in our hometown...he took it.
92.216CNTROL::CHILDSG.Bush, unconvicted criminalTue Dec 03 1991 12:2511
yeah Jake he did it so his dad can watch him play all the time not for the 
money...:^)

he now makes more than his Highness...expect Sir Roger of Crydoom to stalk
down Yawkey Way soon demanding a raise...

why won't they pay Viola? dumb dumb dumb....



92.217RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOMacaulay Culkin makes me puke!Tue Dec 03 1991 13:337
    So when does the Rickey/Roger/Jose watch start?  You know, predict the
    day and time that those three will start the 'holdout' and
    'renogiation' phases of their careers...I won't be surprised if Clemens
    passes - but Rickey and Jose are almost sure bets.  Darryl is a good
    possibility also.
    
    JD
92.218TNPUBS::MCCULLOUGHDr. Seuss - RIPTue Dec 03 1991 15:464
>   Bobby Bonilla did what 99.44% of us would have done if someone
>   offered us $29 million to play in our hometown...he took it.

For that kind of money I'd play in anybody's home town.
92.219TORREY::MAY_BRNeed one of those endolphin rushesTue Dec 03 1991 15:567
    
    I think Jose's thinking is that Bonilla should go for all that he can
    get.  His comment was something like " he should go for $35mil and they
    could start their own league together."  I doubt he's going to ask to
    renegotiate.
    
    Bruce
92.220Welcome home Bobby!CSC32::GL_JOHNSONJust say HO!Wed Dec 04 1991 03:0514
92.221Or was it 43,500 ???SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeWed Dec 04 1991 13:278
JaKe,

It's really quite simple.   If youze guys had bothered to fill those 39,000 
empty seats for Game 7, Bonilla would have stayed.

Bob Hunt


92.222Inevitable, frustrating, sad (and not Bonilla's fault!)GUSHER::WAUGAMANWed Dec 04 1991 13:4119
    
> It's really quite simple.   If youze guys had bothered to fill those 39,000 
> empty seats for Game 7, Bonilla would have stayed.
  
    Okay, who let MrT into BobHunt's account?
    
    Lest there be any doubt whatsoever, Pittsburgh's attendance problems
    or lack thereof had no affect on the loss of Bonilla whatsoever.
    Pittsburgh actually made several fantastic offers to Bonilla, both
    before and after this season.  The fact is that Pittsburgh is the
    smallest market in MLB, smaller even than Seattle and some of the
    other franchises that are in financial trouble.  There's just no
    way that they can afford to lay out $30 million on one player (and if 
    they could, it would only be one, and that one would be Barry Bonds).
         
    Bonds is the next to be gone as this team is quickly dismantled...
    
    glenn
    
92.223Can't believe you bit on that ...SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeWed Dec 04 1991 13:509
Glenn,

Take a chill pill right now, dude.   

$ DEFINE/SYSTEM/EXEC TONGUE$CHEEK "YES"

Whew, that is one sensitive nerve you got there.

Bob Hunt
92.224Was not offended (guess I should get back to smilies)GUSHER::WAUGAMANWed Dec 04 1991 15:4110
    
>    Whew, that is one sensitive nerve you got there.
 
    I understood you completely, Bob.  That's why I cracked the (lame)
    joke about MrT getting into your account.  I just used your reply as 
    an intro to my commentary on the Pittsburgh/small market issue, that's 
    all.
    
    glenn
    
92.226PTOVAX::JACOBMy Golf Handicap?? Showing up!!!!Thu Dec 05 1991 17:419
    re.225
    
    And baseball will be out of business in 5 or 6 years if'n the current
    trend keeps up.  Just wait till they get their nexted TV contract and
    see how much they DON'T have to play with.  Baseball is going to be in
    BIG money trouble in the nesed few years.
    
    JaKe
    
92.227CNTROL::MACNEALruck `n' rollThu Dec 05 1991 20:022
    Jake, people have been saying that about baseball ever since free
    agency began (and probably even before that).
92.228I'm ready to go cold turkey and give up baseballCELTIK::JACOBR.I.P, Badger BobThu Dec 05 1991 22:5427
    Maybe so Mac, but when a person will make $35,802 per game to play
    BASEBALL(judging on him playing 162 games, which he won't so it's
    actually more per game) things IMHO have gone too far.  It's a F__KING
    GAME, or it's supposed to be, it's no longer a game, it's big business.
    
    In a time when there are many companies shutting down, and laying
    people off, and just letting people go, and the economy has to look up
    to see the ground, these bozos are just paying the HUGE contracts and
    turning around to bleed the public by bumping up the ticket prices
    20-25% per year.  
    
    Don't get me wrong, I like baseball and always have, but when it costs
    me close to 2 days pay to take the WHOLE family (me, da MRS., and the 3
    munchkins) to see a game, + the extras the little ones want, it's
    getting out of hand.  Now there's talk that the Pirates wuill go
    exclusively pay per view in the Pittsburgh area within the next year or
    two, to try and make up for the small market they are in.  If they do
    that, they can kiss my ass cause there's many many more things I could
    put my money towards that are better than pay per view, or $16 for a
    decent seat at 3 Rivers.  Wonder when they'll go pay per listen on the
    radio?????   The radio and the newspapers will be my lasted line on
    keeping track of the Pirates then.
    
    JMHO
    
    JaKe
    
92.229CELTIK::JACOBClosed for RemodellingFri Dec 06 1991 01:459
    BTW, Larry "and his brother Darryl and his other brother Darryl"
    Doughty will be looking to deal away Barry "Eyes have changed to $$$
    signs" Bonds at the baseball winter meetings.  Doughty said that if he
    can't sign Bonds to a multi-year contract, he'll do his best to trade
    him so they don't end up getting nothing(other than a draft pick) for
    Bonds.
    
    JaKe
    
92.230PTOVAX::JACOBPlayin with the box the kids came inFri Dec 13 1991 23:3122
    The Bucs signed Steve Buechele to a 4 year $11 million contract
    yesterday.  
    
    Mike LaValliere has accepted the Pirates offer of salary arbitration,
    but, word is that LaValliere will be putting his signature on a 3 year
    ~$6 million contract any day now.
    
    Both Jeff king and John Wahner have had back surgery this fall.  King,
    who was thought to have a bulging disc in his back, actually had a
    ruptured disc, which was removed during the surgery.  Prognosis for
    King's recovery is very good.  King will probably become the Pirates
    1st baseman next year.
    
    IMHO, the Bucs should give the Mets a good run this coming season.  The
    Mets have worked at making their pitching better, and their hitting
    better, BUT, I think their defense will suffer some.  Bonilla, in the
    outfield, is just an average player.  he has lousy speed, is lousy at
    getting the ball in his glove, and has a fair arm.  Helluva bargain for
    $5.8 mil/year, Eh??
    
    JaKe
    
92.231PTOVAX::JACOBPlayin with the box the kids came inWed Dec 18 1991 20:199
    Bob "Round Tripper" Kipper signed with the Minny-soda Twinkies today
    for a reported $1 million.  Sheez, with the gopher balls he throws,
    some batter on the visiting team will probably put one through the roof
    in the MetroDome.
    
    Thanks, Twinkies for taking him off of our hands.
    
    JaKe
    
92.232CELTIK::JACOBIntrospective...Make a StatementMon Jan 06 1992 18:285
    The Pirates fired GM Larry Doughty today.  No other details as of right
    now.
    
    JaKe
    
92.233CARROL::LEFEBVREPojamaPeopleAreBoringMeToPiecesTue Jan 07 1992 14:145
    Whassa mattah?  2 division titles in 2 years ain't good enough?
    
    And I thought Gorman gets crucified.
    
    Mark.
92.234AXIS::ROBICHAUDAristotle,Socrates,Euclid,D.SmithTue Jan 07 1992 15:085
    	I figure this is S.O.P. for Pirates management.  They put all
    kinds of fiscal constraints on their G.M. then fire him when the
    players start to leave the roost.
    
    				/Don
92.235AXIS::CHAPPELFor DUTY and HUMANITYTue Jan 07 1992 16:022
Pirates: "Best team money can't buy"
92.236CSOA1::BACHTue Jan 07 1992 16:324
    Yeah, I can see how they expected him to hold on to Bust-nillia when
    the Mutts offered him 29 million...
    
    
92.237Same team minus one Bobby BonillaSHALOT::MEDVIDthe illusion is deepMon Feb 03 1992 12:5210
    Pirates signed Barry Bonds to a 1-year 4.7 million dollar contract
    Friday.  Bonds stated that if he doesn't have a long-term deal signed
    by the end of spring training, he will be gone next year.
    
    Free agency was a dirty word in Pittsburgh at the end of the season. 
    They've done a good job of re-signing some key members of the team and
    should still be tough this season.  Bonilla really didn't leave THAT
    big a hole.
    
    	--dan'l
92.238JARETH::YANKOWSKASElmo for PresidentMon Feb 03 1992 13:099
    re .237:
    
    > They've done a good job of re-signing some key members of the team 
    
    Good point; things could have been a lot worse for the Bucs if Buechele
    and LaValliere had signed elsewhere and Bonds had been dealt.
    
    
    py
92.239QUASER::HUNTERTwo JaKes... Your Worst NightmareMon Feb 03 1992 20:355
    Bonia wasn't worth the Buc's he wanted...  The Buc's fans should
    be saying good riddens !!
    
    
    BG
92.240CELTIK::JACOBUshering in a new era...Tue Feb 04 1992 02:2623
    
    >><<< Note 92.239 by QUASER::HUNTER "Two JaKes... Your Worst Nightmare" >>>
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    And don't you fergit it, Little'n'Lame!!!!
    
    BTW, speaking of Bonilla, here in Pittsburgh, we have a world class
    aviary, but the mayor, in all of her cheapsh_t ways, wants to close the
    place down.  The latest billboards proclaim:
    
    "FORGET BONILLA, SAVE THE PARROT!!!!  call 1-800-XXX-XXXX and give to
    the save the aviary fund."
    
    Luv It!!!
    
    JaKe
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
92.241CAMONE::WAYCuimhnich, 13 February 1692Tue Feb 04 1992 10:1024
>    BTW, speaking of Bonilla, here in Pittsburgh, we have a world class
>    aviary, but the mayor, in all of her cheapsh_t ways, wants to close the
>    place down.  The latest billboards proclaim:
    

Made me remember and old line from a Benny Hill sketch:

	
		And then there was Betty Mavery,
		she 'ad 'er own aviary,
		and the biggest parakeets you ever seen.....



8^)

'Saw    
    
    
    
    
    
    

92.242CELTIK::JACOBUshering in a new era...Fri Feb 07 1992 18:485
    The Pirates have named Ted Simmons as their new General Manager.
    He is the third GM in 4 years for the Bucs.
    
    JaKe
    
92.243QUASER::HUNTERTwo JaKes... Your Worst NightmareFri Feb 07 1992 19:377
    Hey Rake...
    
     This is another example of a sorry Pitt. Team trying anything to 
    get the Choke artist label off the team.  Sorry Bucs...  You can't
    get there by playing musical chairs !
    
    BG
92.244CELTIK::JACOBUshering in a new era...Fri Feb 07 1992 19:537
    Hey Little'n'Lame
    
    Lets see how many decades it takes before the expansion team that
    Denver is getting even finishes within SIGHT of a playoff team.
    
    JaKe
    
92.245QUASER::HUNTERTwo JaKes... Your Worst NightmareMon Feb 10 1992 21:224
    I predict 3 years...  After all,  Denver is the greatest sports
    city in the world !!
    
    BG
92.246CELTIK::JACOBUshering in a new era...Tue Feb 11 1992 00:1417
    
    >><<< Note 92.245 by QUASER::HUNTER "Two JaKes... Your Worst Nightmare" >>>

    >>I predict 3 years...  After all,  Denver is the greatest sports
    >>city in the world !!
    
    >>BG
    
    Mr. Moderators,
    
    Shouldn't the above reply be moved to the note it rightfully belongs
    in, 
    
    THE SPORTS JOKE NOTE!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.247Bucs gone from Pittsburgh by '95CELTIK::JACOBYou can't argue with a sick mindFri Feb 14 1992 23:5016
    Lessee, the Pirates are suing the city of Pittsburgh for ~$4.3 million
    that the last mayor supposedly promised them, and the city won't deliver on,
    plus the Bucs want some improvements that were allegedly promised also
    to be done to the stadium.  
    
    Meanwhile, the city has filed a counter-suit for $1.6 million they say
    the Pirates owe them in back rent.  
    
    Legal sources here in the 'Burgh say that the Pirates will lose both
    cases if they go to court.  Speculation is that the current ownership
    is trying to weasel around and get the lease broken and then move the
    team to a larger, more profitable market.
    
    JaKe
    
                                                                               
92.248CELTIK::JACOBYou can't argue with a sick mindMon Feb 17 1992 19:315
    Da Bucs signed Doug Drabek to a one year contract worth $4.5 mil, but
    up to $5 mil with incentives.
    
    JaKe
    
92.249CELTIK::JACOBShe Dreamt she was a GladiatorTue Feb 18 1992 22:455
    The Bucs avoided arbitration with John Smiley today, signing him to a 1
    year contract for $3.44 million.
    
    JaKe
    
92.250CELTIK::JACOBShe Dreamt she was a GladiatorThu Feb 20 1992 18:5011
92.251PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollThu Feb 20 1992 19:172
    Probably something to do with seniority and number of years before free
    agency and/or arbitration, Jake.
92.252CELTIK::JACOBI Can't Dance, I Can't Talk!!Tue Feb 25 1992 02:504
92.253Bonds is an infant trapped in an adult bodyCELTIK::JACOBOwner of 'This Old F*@#$%g House'!!!Mon Mar 02 1992 16:4620
    This is from US9eless) A TODAY:
    
    Barry Bonds showed up, after a mandatory photo session, on a motorcycle
    and wearing a leather jacket.  After a session with a team
    photographer, Bonds refused to pose for a contractually-required
    shooting of his baseball card, for which he receives a $78,000
    licensing check.  "Let them use last year's picture," he said.
    
    
    Ya know, the guy is a good/great ball player, but his IQ is three less
    than his shoe size.  But his head size is in the six figure range.
    
    Personally, and I don't normally go for something like this, I hope the
    guy blows out his knees in the lasted week of the season(he's useless
    in post season anyways) and never plays baseball again.
    
    What an A-Hole!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.254ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Mon Mar 02 1992 16:575
    well if he is going to blow out his kness, I would much rather it be
    the first week of the season.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.255CELTIK::JACOBOwner of 'This Old F*@#$%g House'!!!Mon Mar 02 1992 17:0511
    re-.1
    
    Nah, he's been real productive the lasted two years during the REGULAR
    season, and this being the year he goes free agent, he'll probably be
    trying to have another big one(year, not EGO), so I look for 40-40 out
    of him.  Then on the lasted day of the year, knees disintegrate and
    leave Mr. BigHead with zippo.  Maybe an offer of $100,000 from the
    Japanese or sumthin.  Ah, if dreams could only come true.
    
    JaKe
    
92.256CELTIK::JACOBSend Solar Panel Wax, Soon!!!Tue Mar 10 1992 19:2723
    PIRATES TRADE BONDS!!!!
    
    Not really, but wishful thinking.
    
    Actually, the Pirates did trade pitcher Neal Heaton to the Kansas City
    Royals today for OF Kirk Gibson.
    
    Andy Van Slyke is not even in camp now, he flew back to Pittsburgh
    yesterday to have his back examined to try and determine whether he has
    a ruptured disk or a degenerative disk condition.  There is
    specutlation that he could miss at least a month of the season.  More
    when the news becomes available.
    
    The Pirates announced that if Van Slyke cannot play, they have plans of
    moving Bonds to Center, and playing Gibson in left.
    
    My question.  Doesn't Gibson have gimpy knees and spend much time on
    the DL?????
    
    thanks
    
    JaKe
    
92.257ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Tue Mar 10 1992 19:316
    Yeah Gibson has gimpyu needs and spends time on the DL, more suited
    these days to a DH job in the AL. But he does have a way of getting
    folks to play hard (ref. 1988 Dodgers).
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.258Gibson could be Bucs' missing linkSHALOT::HUNTVirginia -- 1992 ACC Women's Hoops ChampsTue Mar 10 1992 19:365
 One slap upside da haid from Gibson and Bonds just might put together a
 Triple Crown season.  He might also sulk his way into another late-season
 swoon, too.
 
 Bob Hunt
92.259DECWET::METZGERNot long until March Madness....Tue Mar 10 1992 19:505
Three Sewers stadium is faux grass correct ?


Metz
92.260Don't trade Bonds, one like that comes along once every 30 years...NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Mar 10 1992 19:5230
    > PIRATES TRADE BONDS!!!!
    
    Don't scare me like that, JaKe.
    
    I predict that Gibson won't make it halfway through the season without
    a major breakdown.  The Pirates still may be able to use his bat off 
    the bench, though.
    
    I may be the last one left, but I'm still a big Barry Bonds fan, and
    even if it's for only one year I'd like to see it be for the Pirates.  
    Peter Gammons wrote this weekend that in spite of the perceived 
    attitude (and unlike Strawberry and Henderson) he's still a popular 
    guy in the clubhouse because no one questions the fact that he 
    plays as hard as anyone else on the team, all out and all the time.
    
    I also came across an interesting garbage-stat in an article a couple
    of weeks ago.  Someone calculated the percentage that baserunners
    successfully advanced to second on balls hit to the outfield last
    season.  Bonds' ability to play the ball and unleash a strike to second 
    is already legendary, and the numbers backed it up.  Amongst regular 
    leftfielders, he was first with a percentage in the mid-teens.  The 
    second highest leftfielder's percentage was in the low thirties, with 
    the league average in the high thirties.
    
    Just a phenomenal all-around talent, with only Griffey Junior
    potentially in his league...
    
    glenn
    
92.261ROYALT::ASHESometimes you're a windshield...Tue Mar 10 1992 20:544
    Oh geez, that's what I need... I have the first 6 picks in a rotisserie
    league (NL) and I'm gonna have to keep the "No Kirk Gibson on my team"
    philosophy in tact...
    
92.262LUNER::BROOKSMoney don't matter 2 night ...Tue Mar 10 1992 23:228
    Don't do it Walt, not for one of the most overrated 'leaders' in modern
    history (IMO).
    
    As for Bonds, Jake, you need to chill. The guy is HoF material, and if
    he's traded, 20 years from now, you'll be moaning about him and how the
    Pirates have yet to replace him.
    
    Bonds is _awesome_ ....
92.263CELTIK::JACOBTue Mar 10 1992 23:3718
    
    
    Bonds is a GREAT athlete.  He is one of if not THE best baseball
    players in the major leagues right now.
    
    BUT
    
    As soon as the third out is recorded in the ninth inning, he reverts
    back to being the BIGGEST MENTAL MIDGET in baseball at this time.  The
    guy has not ONE OUNCE of brains once he leaves the field.  He is a
    liability in the dugout.  How would you like to have a rookie latch
    onto this guy and decide to be "just like him???"
    
    On the field, I like bonds, but as a person, I think he's a far-ging
    icehole.
    
    JaKe
    
92.264NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 11 1992 11:4015
                                                                
    > As soon as the third out is recorded in the ninth inning, he reverts
    > back to being the BIGGEST MENTAL MIDGET in baseball at this time.
    
    Fortunately, when the third out is recorded, the game is over.  The
    rest of the antics are left for the sportswriters' daily feast.
    
    JaKe, you're probably old enough to remember that Clemente was an
    arrogant, overly proud goldbrick who complained after every season
    (except 1966) that he never got the recognition he deserved, right?  
    Somehow the kids filter this stuff right out and it takes we adults 
    years after the player has retired to catch up with them...
    
    glenn
    
92.265EARRTH::BROOKSMoney don't matter 2 night ...Wed Mar 11 1992 13:434
    Thanks for beating me to it Glenn. I had thought that Roberto didn't
    become so beloved until 1970 (?) ....
    
    Maybe history is a set of lies agreed upon (emphasis on agreed) ....
92.266CELTIK::JACOBWed Mar 11 1992 19:1417
    I IDOLIZED Clemente during the '60's and 70's up until he was keelt in
    the crash.  I remember him doing some griping, but most of it was (if
    memory serves me correctly) to do with the Pirates failure to come up
    with huge cash money.  The Bucs DID keep him the highest paid Pirate
    but never coughed up MAJOR sums of green.
    
    Clemente DID make his public appearances, and he played hurt(not saying
    that Bonds doesn't), and he didn't convey a "I really don't want to be
    here" attitude while making those public appearances, which Bonds
    DOES!!
    
    Sure, Clemente did have his downsides, but, he was respected in the
    clubhouse, as well as on the field.  Bonds, thus far, only deserves
    respect for what he does for 9 innings, no further.
    
    JaKe
    
92.267SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Thu Mar 12 1992 15:4828
    
    	Jake, there simply is no comparison.  From what I recall about 
    Clemente he didn't have a mean or spiteful bone in his body.  He was
    always concerned about people who were poorer than himself and he was
    always trying to get more attention focused on the Hispanic population
    and their problems.
    
    	As I recall, Clemente was the first Pirate signed to a six figure
    contract and at that time I believe he was only the 6th person in 
    the Majors with a salary in 6 figures.  I could be wrong about the
    exact numbers, but I remember there were only a handful of players 
    making in excess of 100K.  Mays, Aaron, Mantle, Koufax and possibly
    Gibson are ones that come to mind, but during the mid to late 60's,
    100G's was a lot of dough!
    
    	Funny, I don't really remember Clemente ever complaining about his
    pay... I guess all I remember were his constant complaints about his
    body!
    
    	Bonds has a lot of growing up to do and given the situation with
    the big dollars these days, Bonds will never be even half the player or
    man Clemente was!
    
    	'The Great One' will live on forever!
    
    
    								bill..g.
    
92.268"Injured" Clemente > healthy [just about anyone else]SALES::THILLThu Mar 12 1992 16:024
I think Clemente was more known for griping about nagging injuries. Of course
those injuries never seemed to affect his play...

Tom
92.269It took a while before Clemente's qualities were recognized...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Mar 12 1992 16:0526
              
    I don't remember Clemente complaining about his pay, either.  I do
    remember him complaining about a lack of respect from the writers come 
    MVP time, though.  Clemente was quite outspoken about the fact that he 
    wasn't given the recognition he deserved because he was a Puerto Rican 
    black man.  And the fact is, he was right.
    
    I wasn't trying to compare Bonds to Clemente as a man.  Clemente died
    in the service of other human beings, the ultimate sacrifice, and not 
    knowing Bonds personally I really don't know what kind of person he is 
    at the core (I don't begrudge him wanting to be paid at the top of his 
    profession, which is where he resides as a player, though).  My point 
    was that until near the end of his career if you believed everything 
    that was said or written about Clemente or took things he himself said 
    out of context without considering where he was coming from, you might 
    not have liked him.  And quite a few people didn't (I can give
    references from the Pittsburgh papers taken from Clemente's biography--
    commentaries saying that he was a spoiled goldbrick, etc.), but 
    eventually they found out what kind of person he truly was.  
    
    Barry Bonds is still a young man.  In ten years, we might know more
    about what kind of person he really is, too, when and if he sheds the
    immaturity.  Until then, I still love watching him play.
    
    glenn
    
92.270LUNER::BROOKSMoney don't matter 2 night ...Thu Mar 12 1992 16:511
    Well said Glenn ...
92.271CELTIK::JACOBA double flutter blast!!Thu Mar 12 1992 23:5115
    bill g. and glenn, good notes.
    
    Now my memory may be clouded but I swear I remember Clemente doing the
    money gripe thang a few times, but I ain't going to argue the point.
    
    Bonds will never be worthy of sniffing Clemente's jock, let alone
    carrying it.  Bonds is  self-centered, conceited spoilt brat, and will
    never grow up whilst in the major leagues, strictly my opinion.
    
    Barry's dad, Bobby was no clubhouse leader and spent every year or so
    getting used to another team cause mentally he was a bozo too.  Whadda
    they say. like father like son????  This case probably will hold true.
    
    JaKe
    
92.272You could be right, JaKe; time will tell...NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Mar 13 1992 11:4610
                                                
    After his career was over, Bobby Bonds did acknowledge an alcohol
    problem that caused him many troubles and a premature end to what
    should have been a HOF career.  Bonds, father, indeed didn't kick 
    this problem until after his retirement, but now apparently has his
    life in order as he's a respected batting coach somewhere, I believe.  
    Maybe Bobby's problems had an effect on his son?  Who knows...
    
    glenn
    
92.273LUNER::BROOKSMoney don't matter 2 night ...Fri Mar 13 1992 14:223
    FaKe, from what I hear, Barry is respected in the clubhouse. Fact is,
    the man cheats no one between the white lines and is a professional to
    the core ....
92.274STRATA::CAPPELTue Mar 17 1992 14:456
    Rumor patrol:
    
    Supposedly John Smiley has been traded to the Twins for two prospects
    but I haven't been able to confirm this...
    
    Anyone have any info????
92.275More ...SHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Tue Mar 17 1992 14:5010
92.276CELTIK::JACOBYou weren't sleeping, were you??Tue Mar 17 1992 19:0114
    Anybody got any info on these guys the Bucs got fer Smiley???
    
    Smiley, after going 20-8(I think) lasted year in the reg. season,
    couldn't pitch his way out of the firsted inning in the
    playoffs(although he did last ~2 innings in his first start, he was
    TATOO'd in the first inning), and this spring he has gotten shelled,
    also.
    
    That, coupled with the big contract he signed, got him a ticket outta
    here, cause Ted Simmons is trying to make this team profitable
    (hahaha).
    
    JaKe
    
92.277Probably has "potential" written all over himSHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Tue Mar 17 1992 19:106
 Danny Neagle was 9-4 with a 3.27 ERA at the Twins' AAA club in Portland
 lasted year.  He got a September cuppa coffee and went 0-1 in 3 starts.
 
 I don't have data on the other guy.
 
 Bob Hunt
92.278If the Bucs don't win, they'll lose money like never beforeNAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Mar 17 1992 19:2810
    From the information provided in BASEBALL, the deal is a sell-out on
    Pittsburgh's part.  The minor leaguers and cash for a 20-game winner,
    albeit not a legitimate, perennial 20-game winner.  With 
    division-winning caliber talent still left over from last year, are
    Pirate fans supposed to feel good about this movement to make
    themselves "profitable"?
    
    glenn
    
92.279kinda makes my skin crawlCTHQ3::LEARYBeano:PreventGasBeforeItStartsTue Mar 17 1992 19:305
    Can we now say that the accursed Mets are now the hands-down (yuck)
    prohibitive favs in the NLEast?
    
    MikeL
    
92.280CELTIK::JACOBYou weren't sleeping, were you??Tue Mar 17 1992 19:325
    Lessee, weren't the Mutts SUPPOSED to be the Favs lasted year, too?? 
    Or wuz that the Cubbies?????
    
    JaKe
    
92.281JARETH::YANKOWSKASIrish by marriageTue Mar 17 1992 19:4910
    > Can we now say that the accursed Mets are now the hands-down (yuck)
    > prohibitive favs in the NLEast?                          
    
    Not necessarily...depends on Sid Fernandez'/Doc Gooden's health, and
    whether the Mets' defense can field a notch better than in recent years.
    
    Favorite perhaps, but not a leadpipe cinch...
    
    
    py                                                         
92.282Got to be more coming...SHALOT::MEDVIDDancing in the deepest oceansTue Mar 17 1992 21:266
    I'd still pick Pittsburgh.  Unless they deal Bonds...and even then if
    they deal Bonds for Hunter and Wohler (sp?) the Smiley deal makes
    sense.  Hmmmmm...could this be the set up for the rumored trade with
    Atlanta?
    
    	--dan'l
92.283You might be rightSHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Wed Mar 18 1992 03:0019
 Could be indeed, Dan'l.  ESPN is reporting some more hot trade rumors ...

 Apparently, the Barry Bonds-to-Atlanta deal is now heating back up again. 
 The Braves are to send Brian Hunter, Mark Wohlers, and an unnamed minor
 league prospect (Ryan Klesko?) to the Bucs for Bonds, a free-agent after
 this season.   Could be done by Friday.

 This would also make Otis Nixon expendable and the Angels have a welcome
 mat all laid out for him.

 And here's a new one ... The Rangers are talking with the Phillies about
 Ruben Sierra, another free-agent-to-be.   The Phils have offered Wes
 Chamberlain, Jason Grimsley, and Pat Combs for Sierra but the Rangers want
 either Terry Mulholland *or* Tommy Greene included in the deal.

 Last time the Phils got an AL hot shot, Lance Parrish was a total bust but
 Sierra's a different story.  Big difference.

 Bob Hunt
92.284LUNER::BROOKSMoney don't matter 2 night ...Wed Mar 18 1992 03:235
    re .275
    
    Rub it in willya Bob !
    
    Dr Midnight - Who lost Smiley from his title-winning NL rotis team.
92.285LUNER::BROOKSMoney don't matter 2 night ...Wed Mar 18 1992 03:275
    Ruben Sierra in the NL ? Interesting ... but we know how some AL
    players have big problems adjusting to NL pitching. However, Sierra
    could make the Phils' O explosive. Yet, I can't see them losing Greene
    or Mulholland and Combs (who I think will be a big player) and be
    serious contenders in the East ....
92.286CELTIK::JACOBAnd a boot to the head!Thu Mar 19 1992 23:117
    The Bucs gave Bill Landrum his walking papers today.  Miracles never
    cease.  THis guy was another in a long line of one year wonders. 
    Lasted year AND the year before, he couldn't put his cat out after the
    All-Star break.
    
    JaKe
    
92.287CELTIK::JACOBOn the trail of SveltTue Apr 07 1992 22:197
    Bucs won their opener lasted night, beating the Montreal Expos(ed),
    2-0.
    
    Doug Drabek got the win, pitching 8 innings and giving up 5 hits.
    
    JaKe
    
92.288AXIS::CHAPPELNyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk, That's a pipen !Wed Apr 08 1992 14:3411
92.289CELTIK::JACOBOn the trail of SveltThu Apr 09 1992 02:087
    Bucs goto 2-0 with a 4-2 win over the Expos(ed) tuunite.
    
    Zane Smith gets the W, Barry "Mental Midget" Bonds hits a 2-run homer
    and Stan Belinda gets the save.
    
    JaKe
    
92.290CELTIK::JACOBOn the quest for SvelteFri Apr 10 1992 03:467
    Sheeeeeeeeit
    
    The Bucs longest(and only) winning streak of the season comes to a halt
    as the Expos(ed) pummel Bob Walk and crush the Bucs, sumthin like 8-2.
    
    JaKe
    
92.291CELTIK::JACOBA Plotcher, hard luck Your LordshipThu Apr 16 1992 02:249
    Bucs beat the Cubs tonite, 7-2.
    
    Bucs are now 6-2 and have a game and a half lead over the Expos(ed).
    
    Sheez, only 154 games til the Bucs meat the best of the West in the
    playoffs.
    
    JaKe
    
92.292Correction...SHALOT::MEDVIDNew Dream Date LogThu Apr 16 1992 13:599
>    Sheez, only 154 games til the Bucs meat the best of the West in the
>    playoffs.
    
    Sheez, only 154 games til Barry Bonds goes into his third consecutive
    post-season slump.
    
    Hal Tied Hard (Bonds didn't)
    
    	--dan'l
92.293CELTIK::JACOBA Plotcher, hard luck Your LordshipTue Apr 21 1992 03:4212
    Dem Bucs, if they could play the Phillies all year, along with the
    Expos(ed), would be about 140-22 by the time the playoffs rolled
    around.
    
    They beat Montreal today, 11-1, with the help of a nine run ninth
    inning, featuring Kirk Gibson's grand slam, and Barry Bonds' 6th homer
    in 12 games(it was a three run shot).
    
    The Bucs are now 10-2, and have won 7 in a row.
    
    JaKe
    
92.294CELTIK::JACOBA Plotcher, hard luck Your LordshipWed Apr 22 1992 04:015
    Bucs streak reaches 8, Bonds hits 7th dinger of the year, Bucs are now
    11-2.  Van Slyke finally starting to slam the ball around too.
    
    JaKe
    
92.295Bobby who?CTHQ3::LEARYSix, two, and even.Wed Apr 22 1992 13:441
    
92.296AXIS::ROBICHAUDDeanSmith,PaulWesthead,BobKnightWed Apr 22 1992 16:083
    	You still hopes he breaks his leg JaKe?  8^)
    
    				/Don
92.297ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Wed Apr 22 1992 16:137
    re: .296
    
    Much as I hate defending him, Jake only wanted him to break a leg AFTER
    the 1992 season. Jake, ya owe me one :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.298CELTIK::JACOBA Plotcher, hard luck Your LordshipWed Apr 22 1992 19:5010
    TCM,
    
    I'd rather owe ya one than cheat ya out of it.
    
    I still want him to totally blow out a knee, maybe during the
    off-season, after signing on with some other team, he'll blow it out
    carrying all his money up the steps at his house.
    
    JaKe
    
92.299CELTIK::JACOBA Plotcher, hard luck Your LordshipThu Apr 23 1992 02:2910
    Bucs win 9th in a row at the expense of the Expos(ed) tonite, 2-0.
    Kirk Gibson led the game off with a homer and then Steve Buechele drove
    in Andy Van Slyke in the ninth to complete the scoring.
    
    Doug Drabek pitched his 13th career shutout, and got the complete game.
      
    The Bucs are now 12-2 and are on their way to a 139-23 season.  (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    
92.300AXIS::ROBICHAUDWilt = Kielbasa QueenThu Apr 23 1992 14:004
    	If the Pirates ever let Leyland go somebody will give him over
    a million dollars.
    
    				/Don
92.301Smiley who?SHALOT::MEDVIDanother who has maddening viewsThu Apr 23 1992 14:441
    
92.302CELTIK::JACOBA Plotcher, hard luck Your LordshipFri Apr 24 1992 00:298
    Bucs left their defnse at the hotel today as they commit 5 errors,
    leading to 3 unearned runs, and lose the the Expos(ed), 6-3.
    
    Zane Smith took the loss and is now 3-1.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.303Will Bonds ever learn to keep his mouth shut?SHALOT::MEDVIDWho's got segmented eyes?Tue Apr 28 1992 17:0712
    The Pirates are playing .778 ball going into Cincinnati tonight. 
    Wonder how "intelligent" Barry Bonds feels about this quote after the
    Bucs dealt Smiley and released Landrum:
    
    "If you're making a move to save money, say so.  Don't insult our
    intelligence by saying it's for the best of the team."
    
    Guess what, Barry.  It was for the good of the team.  Smiley's ERA is
    6.86, much closer to his career stats, and Landrum has been shelled in
    Montreal.  The Pirates lead the NL in pitching.
    
    	--dan'l
92.304Landrum, no biggie ... Smiley however ...EARRTH::BROOKSPrince &gt; MadonnaTue Apr 28 1992 17:504
    Dan'l, that sounds more like a chance to bash Barry than anything else.
    Face it, he just echoed what a lot of people were saying.
    
    Moreover, the calender says April, not October. Let's wait awhile hmm ?
92.305April or October, Bonds is a jerkSHALOT::MEDVIDWho's got segmented eyes?Tue Apr 28 1992 19:1712
    Hey, I'll take any chance I can to bash Barry Bonds.  Even if he leads
    the Pirates to the world series (avoiding his annual NLCS choke job),
    I'll dislike the big cry baby.
    
    There he was all last year trying to get us to believe he wasn't crying
    about money (ESPN interview in which he stated that money was not a
    factor, he just wanted respect) but as soon as his own club makes money
    moves to perhaps sign the overgrown infant, he cries to the media that
    the club isn't being upfront with the players.  Not only is he a big
    mouthed cry baby, he's a hypocrite.
    
    	--dan'l
92.306CELTIK::JACOBNO JUNK..whadda buncha BUNK!!!Tue Apr 28 1992 19:549
    --dan'l
    
    I agree with ya whole-heartedly about Bonds.
    
    The Bucs are reportedly close to signing Doug Drabek to a 4 year $20
    million plus contract.  Now that would be a good move on their part.
    
    JaKe
    
92.307CELTIK::JACOBWhere'll we get L.A.LAW Reports??Tue Apr 28 1992 22:098
    Bucs are in Cincy tonite.  Their lead ove rthe Mutts right now is 4-1/2
    games.
    
    Tonite Drabek goes against Browning.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.308CELTIK::JACOBGimme a beer and a junk noteWed Apr 29 1992 04:057
    Bucs losted to the Reds tonite, 3-2.  Browning gets the win and is 3-1,
    Drabek took the loss and is now 3-2.
    
    The New Yuck Mutts won and are now 3-1/2 back.
    
    JaKe
    
92.309ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Wed Apr 29 1992 06:335
    Careful or the Pitt baseball team may develop the nickname of Bastards
    in this notesfile.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.311GO BUCS!!!!!!!!!1CELTIK::JACOBThu Apr 30 1992 04:198
    Bucs broke out of their big slump(2 game losing streak) to beat the
    Reds tonite.  Zane Smith got the "W", pitching a 3 hitter and Steve
    Buechele had a home run for the Bucs.
    
    The Mutts won again so the Bucs lead is still 3-1/2.
    
    JaKe
    
92.312ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Thu Apr 30 1992 06:0010
    Jake,
    
    I figured you couldn't be getting your team nicknames wrong so I made a
    concerted effort to find a team with the nickname Mutts that plays
    in either the NL or AL of MLB and I couldn't seem to find it. Are you
    trying to pull a Sid Finch on us? If you are it is a bit after April
    1st for that don't you think??
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.313the Can is backJARETH::YANKOWSKASPaul YankowskasThu Apr 30 1992 13:205
    Pirates signed ex-Red Sox/Expos/Rangers pitcher Oil Can Boyd to a 
    triple-A contract.
    
    
    py
92.314Parade in OctCTHQ1::MCCULLOUGHLindsey's gonna HAVE a sister!!!Thu Apr 30 1992 13:364
>   Pirates signed ex-Red Sox/Expos/Rangers pitcher Oil Can Boyd to a 
>   triple-A contract.
    
That'll lock up the division for the Bucs.     8^)
92.315Beautiful Seaside BuffaloSHALOT::MEDVIDWho's got segmented eyes?Thu Apr 30 1992 14:0911
>    Pirates signed ex-Red Sox/Expos/Rangers pitcher Oil Can Boyd to a 
>    triple-A contract.
    
    That means he's back on Lake Erie (in Buffalo), one of his favorite
    oceans.
    
    Mods, would it be possible to change the title of this note to remove
    the "1991" or should we begin a 1992 note?
    
    	--dan'l
    
92.316RUGBY1::wayAt 6', 245, from Parts UnknownThu Apr 30 1992 14:446
Dan'l,

The mods or the author can changed the title.  I'll do it if I get a chance.


'Saw
92.317CELTIK::JACOBApril 2--277lbs, April 30-254-1/2lbsSat May 02 1992 03:596
    Bucs get pummeled tonite.
    
    Mutts win, now 2 back.
    
    JaKe
    
92.318CELTIK::JACOBPlayed first 18 of the year 2dayTue May 05 1992 02:5210
    As Walt reported in the NL note, Kirk Gibson was released today by the
    Pirates.
    
    In tonite's game, the Bucs were trailing the Reds 5-1 entering the
    bottom of the sixth when the bats came alive and after the smoke had
    cleared, the 6th ended with the Bucs leading, 12-5, which, by the way,
    was also the final score.  Dennis Lamp got the victory for the Bucs.
    
    JaKe
    
92.320CELTIK::JACOBWed May 06 1992 02:399
    
    Bucs beat the Reds tonite, 5-2.  Paul Miller got his first MAjor League
    win in the game.
    
    The Bucs are now 18-7 and lead the Mutts by 3 games.
    
    JaKe
    
    
92.321CELTIK::JACOBThu May 07 1992 04:117
    New Yawk loses tonite, Bucs are in 15th inning, tied 3-3.
    
    Bucs will be either up by 3 or 4, depending on the outcome of this
    marathon, but I'm going home.
    
    JaKe
    
92.322Pirates win in the 16thSHALOT::MEDVIDi can't lick that farThu May 07 1992 12:5314
    Pirates won at 12:45 AM when Don Slaught hit a one-out triple and Jose
    Lind, who had been 0-6 in the game, hit a ball over Otis Nixon's head
    (who I'm sure was playing in in that situation).  Pirates stranded a
    total of 21 base runners in the game.
    
    Went to a bar after water polo practice lasted night and the Braves and
    Pirates game was on TBS.  Pirates were losing 2-0 when we left and I
    had pretty much written them off since it seemed they were stranding a
    lot of runners and young Steve Avery was pitcing for Atlanta.
    
    Took a friend home at about 12:30 and on my way back decided to see
    what talk radio was saying on KDKA (Pittsburgh).  Much to my surprise,
    the game was still on, top of the 16th inning.  
    
92.323SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Thu May 07 1992 16:217
    
    	Can anyone post the Buc's August schedule of home dates?  If I'm
    going to make a trip home, I'd also like to take in a game if possible.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    
92.324FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu May 07 1992 16:5012
    8/1-2	St Louis
    8/4-5	New York
    8/6-9	at St Louis
    8/10-12	at New York
    8/14-17	Atlanta
    8/18-20	San Diego
    8/21-23	at San Fran
    8/24-26	at LA
    8/27-30	at SD
    9/1-3	San Fran
    
    John
92.325SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Thu May 07 1992 18:204
    
    
    	Thanks John.
    
92.326Bucs get together?SHALOT::MEDVIDi can't lick that farThu May 07 1992 18:434
    Bill, I'm planning a trip myself mid to late August, most likely over a
    weekend.  Maybe we can hook up, including JaKe too.
    
    	--dan'l
92.327CELTIK::JACOBThu May 07 1992 20:078
    RE-.1  Sounds good to me.
    
    Nixon was indeed playing very shallow when Lind lifted the ball over
    his haid and Slaught coulda crawled home.  I had made it home and
    watched the lasted inning on the tube.
    
    JaKe
    
92.328CELTIK::JACOBOn to Myrtle Beach for some I &amp; IFri May 08 1992 12:3312
    Bucs lost lasted night to the Braves and Tom Glavine, who they NEVER
    seem to be able to beat, 4-2.
    
    No problemo though cause the New Yuck Mutts lost also to the Reds, so
    the lead stays at 4 games, but that don't mean squat right now, but
    wait till September when the Bucs are up by 14.
    
    
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.329Pittsburgh will be a better place without Bonds in '93SHALOT::MEDVIDi can't lick that farFri May 08 1992 13:3313
    In two consecutive nights, Barry Bonds has failed to deliver with the
    bases loaded.  In the 16-inning game Wednesday, he had bases loaded
    with two outs; Bonds grounded out.  Lasted night he had bases loaded
    with one out and took three called strikes.
    
    I only point this out because on ESPN Monday, Bonds said, "That's the
    way I play.  If you dare challenge me in my territory, I'll beat you."
    
    Time to give Cecil Espy a little more PT.  He is a switch hitter
    batting .464 in pinch situations.  He's got to be better defensively in
    the outfield than Gary Redus.
    
    	--dan'l
92.330SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Fri May 08 1992 18:4815
    
    	dan'l, if I plan a trip home this august, I'll probably opt for
    the first week of August.  My Dad's birthday is during that first 
    week and the old 'county fair' is in town that week, but I haven't
    made up my mind yet.
    
    	So, if you're around at that time, I don't have a problem hooking
    up at the park.  This year though, I'm taking my son...it would be
    his first 'big league' game.
    
    	As august gets closer, we'll have to see where we are at.
    
    
    							bill..g.
    
92.331SHALOT::MEDVIDi can't lick that farFri May 08 1992 19:398
    I'm probably playing in a water polo tournament in Philly the first
    weekend in August, so I doubt I'll be going to the St. Louis series
    over the 1st and 2nd.  Looks like that only leaves me with the Braves
    series (could be a good one) 14-16.
    
    Can't your dad move his birthday?
    
    	--dan'l
92.332SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Mon May 11 1992 16:2622
    
    re: .331
    
>    Can't your dad move his birthday?
    
    	Dan'l, I'm sure that he would move his birthday, but it's the 
    County Fair that would be the problem...  Just love those county 
    fairs!!
    
    	Like I said, I'm not sure if let alone when I'd be going home.
    Usually we shoot for the first and second weeks of August, but this
    year I know it will only be for a week to 10 days.  So, as August
    nears, I'll see..
    
    	Then of course there is always 'Rain Day' on July 29th.. I always
    like to be home then too!!  Not to mention the Jacktown fair (longest
    continuous running fair in the country)!  Ain't seen nothin' till you
    seen the Jacktown fair!!
    
    
    								bill
    
92.333SadSHALOT::MEDVIDi can't lick that farFri May 15 1992 15:4829
    Anyone catch ESPN's baseball tonight lasted night?
    
    If not, let me relate one of their top stories to you.
    
    If you saw baseball highlights Wednesday, you saw Jim Leyland go
    ballistic on an ump (can't remember his name).  Another ump was holding
    and shoving the target ump back to keep him off of Leyland.  This all
    stems from Tuesday night when this ump was behind the plate calling
    strikes on the Pirate batters that were over a foot outside.  These
    were not marginal calls.  The camera doesn't lie.  If pitchers were to
    get calls like that every night, we'd be seeing 40 no-hitters per week.
    
    Anyway, Wednesday night, this ump was at third and the Bucs were
    getting on him from the dugout.  Everyone thought the Leyland
    confrontation was strange because the Pirates were up 10-2 at that
    point.  Then they heard what was said.  The ump yelled back to the
    Pirate players, "If you thought those weren't strikes last night, wait
    until next time you get me."  Leyland yelled back that that was
    cheating, to which the ump made some references to the Pirates recent
    October performances.  That's when Leyland blew.
    
    Sad thing is, according to ESPN, the league can do nothing because of
    the Bill White (?) overruling.  (Someone want to refresh my memory
    here?)
    
    Pirates won Wednesday and lasted night and were able to flush out a
    skunk.  I just hope MLB doesn't have a clothes pin on its nose.
    
    	--dan'l
92.334This is getting out of handSHALOT::MEDVIDthe potion motions to lieMon May 18 1992 13:3217
92.335SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Mon May 18 1992 16:4212
    
    
    	Hey dan'l, Leyland and the Pirates just need to keep their mouths
    shut and play ball.  If the umps are screwing up, sooner or later they
    will screw up big time.  In the mean time, Leyland should just keep
    his yap shut and play the game.  Arguing with the umps/refs never 
    amount to anything anyway.  Leyland would do better to concentrate
    that same effort into managing the Bucs out of a 4 game losing streak.
    
    
    							bill..g.
    
92.336Who is going to fire 'em ?LUNER::BROOKSI am the margin of error.Mon May 18 1992 17:443
    Ah, but Goose, the umpiring is sooo screwed up right now, that some of
    teh worst umps act as if they have tenure - and I've no evidence to
    prove otherwise.
92.337SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Mon May 18 1992 19:4321
    
    
    	Doc, I'm not saying that there aren't bad umps or that it's getting
    out of hand in the baseball ranks.  I'd just like to see Leyland and
    the rest of the crew get on with business.  Frankly, I'd like to see
    the league ban all this arguing crap anyway.  Never does any good and
    just slows the game down.  
    
    	Just like in hoops.  You question a call (correctable error) and
    it is found to be un-correctable, your team would be charged with an
    out.  If it's the 3rd out, the side is retired.  It wouldn't get rid
    of all the arguing and complaining, but a coach might think twice 
    before poping off at the ump.
    
    	I would just like to see all the baiting and badgering stop. 
    Heaven knows I've had my share and I'm just tired of the whole
    confrontation thing.  Just play the game and stop all the crying
    because a call didn't go your way!
    
    								bill..g.
    
92.338Leyland definitely had the upper hand in this one...NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue May 19 1992 13:0019
    
    Hey, arguing with the umpire is as old as the game itself.  When the
    manager has a legitimate beef and isn't just giving it to the ump to
    cover his own butt, I say have at it.  It's good entertainment and
    everyone, including the umpires (especially these days), need to be
    kept honest from time to time.
    
    They say there's no accountability with the umpires, and technically
    that may be true, but I can't think of too many punishments worse than
    the media hue and cry that's been foisted on John Hirshbeck in the last
    week.  And he deserves it.  The guy let a personal grudge get in the
    way of his objectivity (the most important thing an umpire possesses,
    even more important than his umpiring talent), and he's been held up to
    ridicule in baseball circles on a national scale.  We're living in the
    video age, and umpires can't get away with that stuff like they might
    once have...
    
    glenn
    
92.339Hirschbeck sounds like Ken Kaiser (puke)CTHQ1::LEARYSix, two, and even.Tue May 19 1992 13:251
    
92.340Leaving too many men on the bagsSHALOT::MEDVIDUSA: we only bomb brown peopleWed May 20 1992 15:2610
92.341Mets in '92ACESMK::FRANCUSPenguins beat Rangers 4 game to 2Wed May 20 1992 17:0010
    re: .340
    
    Small quibble. The Pirates have been out of first place since 1990.
    They did not lead the division from start to finish in 1991. What you
    are thinking of is that the Pirates have been in first place at the end
    of each month since 1990.
    
    Go Bruins (at least in this round)
    The Crazy Met
    
92.342Bucs lose 5th straightCELTIK::JACOBI &amp; I'd out!! Whatta week it was!Wed May 20 1992 22:0213
    Bucs lose again to the Giants, 3-1 today at Candlestick.  Bucs lead is
    now 1/2 game and could evaporate tonite if the Cards win, leaving them
    tired with the Bucs.
    
    Bucs were getting everything during the first month or so of the
    season, but now, if the hitting is there, the pitching is out to lunch,
    and visa versa, plus the defense is having lapses.
    
    Time for the Bucs g=to get their collective heads out of their asses
    and start playing as a team again.
    
    JaKe
    
92.343does Pittsburgh have a baseball team?FRETZ::HEISERnetwork partner excitedWed May 20 1992 22:411
    
92.344CELTIK::JACOBI &amp; I'd out!! Whatta week it was!Wed May 20 1992 23:424
    Eh Mike, does Phoenix have a baseball team???
    
    JaKe
    
92.345NL East teams all playing good ballSHALOT::MEDVIDUSA: we only bomb brown peopleThu May 21 1992 14:158
    This slump was inevitable.  Bucs will bounce back.  In fact, it's a
    good thing it is happening now while they are playing out of the
    division.
    
    In fact, I expect Montreal to make a run anytime now.  Pirates could be
    in fourth place soon, but not for long.
    
    	--dan'l
92.346LOTS of themFRETZ::HEISERjust say no to wankersThu May 21 1992 16:031
>    Eh Mike, does Phoenix have a baseball team???
92.347CELTIK::JACOBQUAYLE is DAD of MURPHY BROWN'S KIDThu May 21 1992 20:1510
    
    >>      <<< Note 92.346 by FRETZ::HEISER "just say no to wankers" >>>
    >>                           -< LOTS of them >-
    
    I mean a REAL team.
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    
92.348Bucs in one helluva slumpCELTIK::JACOBWed May 27 1992 19:5610
    Da Bucs losted another one lasted night.  (8^(*
    
    They've lost something like 11 of their last 12.  The starting pitchers
    have only 2 victories in the last 22 games, and the bullpen is just
    non-existant.
    
    HELP!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.349PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollWed May 27 1992 19:571
    And JaKe's especially ticked off because he cain't BLAM Bonds ;^)
92.350Thanks, Jim and DennisSHALOT::HUNTEverybody Wang Chung TonightWed May 27 1992 20:199
 And it was an especially sweet loss for the Buccos, too.   Bottom of the
 10th, Leyland ordered Dennis Lamp to walk Kurt Stillwell so he could pitch
 to Darrin Jackson with the force on at all three bases.
 
 Lamp went to 3-0 on Jackson and then grooved a 'hit-me-please' fastball. 
 Darrin put him out of his misery and sent moi into a healthy round of
 late-night applause for my rotis team.
 
 Bob Hunt
92.351Pirates Sipping Bigtime!!!!CELTIK::JACOBGO PENS!!! GET BTB STANLEY CUPS!Thu May 28 1992 00:5227
    Well the Buccos did it again.
    
    
    L O S T !!!!!!!!
    
    They blew leads of 6-4 and 7-6, finding a way to lose it in the ninth
    inning, 8-7.
    
    Lessee, ~2 weeks ago, they was 23-10 and cooking.  Now, they're 24-21
    and appear ready to go out with the trash.  I only have one hope for
    the Bucs, that they'll
    
    
    GET THEIR HAIDS OUT OF THEIR ASSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Stan Belinda, who has grooved many a pitch lately, took the loss.  I
    didn't hear how the Padres scored in the ninth, but in the top of the
    ninth, Bonds doubled(he also had a HR and 3 RBI in the game), went to
    third on McClendon's hit, and scored on the next base hit.  Bucs were
    up 7-6 after the top of the ninth, and if they had a freakin' closer,
    they'd be flying back to Pgh. tonite with a "W" instead of a "L".
    
    Where is the team that played the first 33 games of the
    season???????????????
    
    JaKe
    
92.352They'll turn it aroundCTHQ2::LEARYSix, two, and even.Thu May 28 1992 13:199
    Remember the preceding note folks.
    
    Carbon copy of JaKe at the Other Place in Boyslton regarding the
    'Goons. Watch the Bucs make the World Series!
    
    mucho 8^)'s 
    MikeL
    
    
92.353Mets in '92ACESMK::FRANCUSPenguins beat Rangers 4 game to 2Mon Jun 01 1992 18:2510
    
    Trivial stat:
    
    The standings at the end of May 1992 have the Cardinals leading the
    Pirates by 1/2 game. This is the first time since October 1989 that the
    Pirates have not led the NL East at the end of a month.
    
    Go Hawks (do you believe in miracles :-( )
    The Crazy Met
    
92.354A quickie through what is now the Penguins' town...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Jun 01 1992 19:4232
    Despite the protestations of my wife, the family stopped at Three
    Rivers yesterday on the drive home from Dayton OH to catch the Pirates
    versus Giants in another one of those "Turn Back the Clock" games. 
    The "New York" Giants looked familiar in their old greys, but it was 
    very strange seeing the Pirates dressed in white uniforms with dark 
    blue hats and red lettering with blue trim.  The design was supposedly 
    from 1939, and the shirts looked something like the nice ones the 
    Minnesota Twins used to wear in the late 1970s before they traded them 
    in for one of baseball's uglier contemporary costumes.  Pretty sharp, 
    but I honestly never recall seeing any pictures of Pittsburgh with a 
    script "Pirates" like this across the chest.  Either they didn't for 
    very long or the Pirates management was pulling yet another fast one
    (Leyland sounded less than thrilled with the whole affair in the
    pre-game, probably reflecting the general mood of the team the way
    things have gone lately).
    
    Anyway, it was totally forgettable game and yet another lackluster 
    performance by the Bucs, who blew an early 3-0 lead with the aid of 
    three late unearned runs to lose 5-3.  We missed the Buechele home run 
    and just caught Jeff King's, but it was downhill from there.  The same
    two players made the costly errors, with King's being an *easy*
    three-hop groundball on artificial turf that he just flat forgot on his
    way to first.  You're not going to win many games with the kind of
    effort the Bucs put in yesterday...
    
    Oh well, at least it was nice coming through the Fort Pitt tunnel and
    looking down on the The Point and the downtown area again.  Had been a 
    while for me, and I'd forgotten how pretty it is...
    
    glenn
    
92.355CELTIK::JACOBGO PENS!!! KEEP THE CUP!!!Mon Jun 01 1992 20:3310
    Where'd ya sit, Glenn????
    
    Me, Mrs. JaKe, and the two older little JaKes was in section 460 fer
    the game, yesterday(free tickets is wunderful, ain't they??).
    
    Started out as a good game, but as you said, twas very forgettable by
    the time the ninth ended.
    
    JaKe
    
92.356Is this a trend?SALES::THILLMon Jun 01 1992 20:5014
    I've seen an old picture of Ralph Kiner with the script Pittsburgh (or
    was it Pirates) on the shirt. The navy blue/red combo is real common in
    baseball, even the Giants used to have those colors. At one point the
    only teams in baseball with colors OTHER than that were the Yankees (no
    red) Tigers (a dab of orange) Cubs, Dodgers & Philly A's (lighter shade
    of blue). 
    
    I saw this in a book on the uniforms down through the years, with every
    team, every year. It's interesting to see the changes in style and
    colors. The 70s was probably the most radical. It is always hard to tell 
    what colors they wore in the old days, since all we have to go on is black
    and white photos.
    
    Tom
92.357A "'Burgh Ball" invasionNAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Jun 01 1992 22:0941
               
    > Where'd ya sit, Glenn????
    > 
    > Me, Mrs. JaKe, and the two older little JaKes was in section 460 fer
    > the game, yesterday(free tickets is wunderful, ain't they??).
    
    We bought the cheap general admission seats but sat in the lower left
    field stands instead of upstairs (the rain wasn't bad until the game
    ended and we had to walk back to the car).  I don't think those are 
    general admission seats but from a past life I remembered the ushers 
    won't really hassle you out there.  One guy near home plate where we
    came in offered to take us all down front for 10 bucks, but just for 
    a fun day out with the kids (no front row heckling action required) I 
    wasn't going for it.  It's no wonder the Pirates are going broke with 
    people buying general admission seats and bribing corrupt ushers to 
    fill the boxes, though.  Betcha can't do that at Pens' games... ;-)
    
    Next time I'm out there hopefully it'll be for longer and I can look
    you up and hit those cheap box seats, JaKe, but with your reduced
    stature it sounds like I might have walked right past you yesterday 
    and not even recognized you...
    
    It was a Pittsburgh sort of a week for us even out in Dayton.  Loads
    of relatives and friends in from the area for my brother's wedding and 
    almost all sports nuts, with everyone in the wedding party wearing
    Bucs' and Pens' caps for everything but the ceremony itself (and I
    think even that might have been a close call...)
    
    Tom, I just now looked at the program from the game and there are
    pictures of manager Pie Traynor and others from 1939 so the Pirates
    did indeed wear these uniforms.  I think I've seen some of the same 
    pictures of Ralph Kiner with the script "Pittsburgh", but maybe 
    because the pictures are all black and white I'd always assumed the 
    Pirates had gone to black as their primary color by then.  These 
    were a little different, though, with large script "Pirates" underlined
    with a trailer off the "s".  Definitely threw me for a loop having no
    black or gold, to the point where if you're not paying attention to the
    game subconsciously you forget which team is which.
    
    glenn
    
92.358SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Tue Jun 02 1992 15:0237
    
    
    	According to my Pirate Centennial Yearbook, the Black and
    Gold/Yellow did not appear until 1948!
    
    	Here's the breakdown for all the Pirate faithful...you know, just
    information.
    
    	1887	Blue hat, solid white shirt and pants, blue socks.
    	1895	Blue hat, white shirt with "Pittsburgh" in block letters,
    	        blue socks and white pants with a blue zig-zag stripe.
    	1909	White hat with blue bill, white shirt with blue collar,
    		blue socks with red stripe.  Shirt had PBC on sleeve.
    	1927	Blue cap with red 'P'. White shirt and pants with blue P on
    	        sleeve, blue socks with white stripe.
    	1934	Same hat as 1927, same shirt only with large red P on
    		breast.  Socks were red, white and blue.
    	1936	Same hat, "Pirates" appears on shirts in red with blue
    		border.  Socks were red and blue.
    	1939	Same as '36 only 'Pirates' appears in script writing on 
    		shirts.
    	1941	Hat was blue with red bill with 'P'.  Pirate emblem appears
    		on breast of shirt.  
    	1944	Back to 'Pirates' on shirt in block letters.
    	1950	Colors change.  Black hat with gold 'P' and 'Pirates' in 
    		block letters across shirt in Black with gold highlight.
    	1960	Sleevless shirt with black undershirt(first worn in '57).  
    		Same Pirate writing across shirt.  Socks are black with gold 
    		stripes.
    
    	Uniforms thoughout this time varied also to home and away.  Some
    years, the home jerseys would say "Pirates" and the away jerseys would
    say "Pittsburgh".  Other years they would not.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    
92.359CAMONE::WAYTwo Bullets and a LadyTue Jun 02 1992 15:304
Better watch out, there Bill, you're givin' John Hendry a run for his 
money 8^)

'Saw
92.360FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Tue Jun 02 1992 15:593
    Fine with me.  I like challenges.
    
    Ninj
92.361SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Tue Jun 02 1992 16:0915
    
    re: -2
    
    	Nope, John is all alone at the top.  It just so happens that I
    have a few Pittsburgh articles hanging around in my office cube, and 
    when some stuff comes up about Pittsburgh teams, I can usually find
    something of interest in there.  It just so happened that I had the
    Centennial Yearbook and it had a history of the uniforms in it.  
    
    	I'll leave the rest to Mr. Hendry.
    
    
    
    								bill..g.
    
92.362Sports for $200..ROYALT::ASHEYou'll dance to anything...Tue Jun 02 1992 16:323
           <<< Note 92.359 by CAMONE::WAY "Two Bullets and a Lady" >>>
    
    Who are LaBradford Smith, Rex Chapman and Jan Stephenson?
92.363DCOPST::POOLQ::BRAKETue Jun 02 1992 17:214
    re .362
    
    The Love children of Baskerville Holmes?
    
92.364RUGBY1::wayTwo Bullets and a LadyTue Jun 02 1992 17:2222
Walt, you slay me.  8^)


It was from LASTed week's Northern Exposure, when the real Joel was 
swapped with his brother Jules, and running the card-game-scam.  He had
two aces and a queen, and kept calling it "two bullets and a lady".

Course, Jules was a faux-brother, since it was all a dream anyway....

The two guys at the end were from Topeka, which is a way's from PITTSBURGH,
just like this reply....


'Saw


PS  Wanna get a new p-name from the new Delbert McClinton song, but can't
    remember the line exactly -- i think it's something like

	"She's like rolling a 7, every time I roll the dice"


92.365CELTIK::JACOBGet Out the Brooms, The Pens SweptWed Jun 03 1992 02:308
    Bucs beat the Dodgers tonite, 1-0.  Tomlin(6-3) gets the win, Mason got
    the save.
    
    Bring on those Muckin' Fets this week.  The Bucs are going to give them
    an a$$ kicking like they shoulda had years ago!!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.366Mets in '92ACESMK::FRANCUSPittsburgh Penguins, 1992 Stanley Cup ChampionsWed Jun 03 1992 15:329
    Should be a good series between PITT and the Mets. 
    
    At the moment, Cards and Bucs are tied for first with 27-23 records.
    Mets are .5 games out witha 27-24 record. Mets have the day off.
    If Cards and PITT lose today all 3 are tied for first with 27-24
    records. Cards game is 12:35 EDT, PITT plays at 3 EDT.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.367CELTIK::JACOBGet Out the Brooms, The Pens SweptWed Jun 03 1992 20:224
    Bring on the MUCKING FETS!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.368Mets in '92ACESMK::FRANCUSPittsburgh Penguins, 1992 Stanley Cup ChampionsWed Jun 03 1992 22:084
    Pitt pitt pitt
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.369bovine ilk?HBAHBA::HAASWTOE RadioThu Jun 04 1992 13:246
What in the wide wide world of sports was going on in Pittsburgh
yesterday?

I'm looking at Sporstcenter and here's Jeff King milking a cow!

TTom
92.370Boorishness has no bordersACESMK::FRANCUSPittsburgh Penguins, 1992 Stanley Cup ChampionsFri Jun 05 1992 14:449
    Bucs won round 1 against the Mets 7-2 last night. Lind got a 2 run
    single with 2 outs after Doc had worked from a 1st and 3rd, noone out
    situation. Murray just missed a grand slam HR that would have tied it
    5-5 in the 8th.
    
    Real class act by those Pirate fans throwing a golf ball at Bonilla!!
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.371CTHQ1::LEARYSix, two, and even.Fri Jun 05 1992 17:0910
    Been done before TCM,
    Was with me Pop at a Bosox gamw in the early/mid 60's, sittin behind
    the Red Sox dugout when a golf ball came whizzing by us aimed at
    Dr. Strangeglove, Dick Stuart. In Stuartesh fashion, the ball went
    harmlessly right through his laigs. Boorish but kinda funny.
    
    MikeL
    
    Any more Met fans out there that still thinks Doc comes near Clemens?
    
92.372ACESMK::FRANCUSPittsburgh Penguins, 1992 Stanley Cup ChampionsFri Jun 05 1992 17:436
    > Any more Met fans out there that still thinks Doc comes near Clemens?
    
    not this year
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.373ACESMK::FRANCUSPittsburgh Penguins, 1992 Stanley Cup ChampionsFri Jun 05 1992 17:447
    re: .371-2
    
    fwiw if I needed someone to pitch a big game (pkayoff/WS) I wouldn't
    pick either Clemens or Doc.
    
    The Crazy met
    
92.374That's almost as hypocritical as a T or Hal noteSHALOT::MEDVIDPenguins: 91 &amp; 92 NHL Champs!Fri Jun 05 1992 18:057
    How sweet.  A New York fan lecturing the rest of us on what is and is
    not "classless."  Too funny.  Glass houses there, Crazy Met.
    
    When Bonilla got up to bat, the Three Rivers organist played "Take The
    Money And Run."
    
    	--dan'l
92.375Mets in '92ACESMK::FRANCUSPittsburgh Penguins, 1992 Stanley Cup ChampionsFri Jun 05 1992 18:249
    re: .374
    
    You missed the point. All we NY fans hear is how boorish NY fans can be
    etc, etc. I was simply pointing out that NO team has a monoply on
    boorish and obnoxious fans. In other words, glass houses but the other
    way around.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.376CELTIK::JACOBLosing it from all the right placesFri Jun 05 1992 20:1012
    
    Bonilla's defensive skills what they are, he couldn't have been hit by
    the golf ball if it came straight at him.
    
    Damned ball cost me $3.25 at Herman's before the game.  (8^)*
    
    At least it wasn't an Everready battery like Parker got thrown at him
    when he took the Bucs money and proceeded to go into a 3 year
    cocaine-induced slump.
    
    JaKe
    
92.377Mets in '92ACESMK::FRANCUSPittsburgh Penguins, 1992 Stanley Cup ChampionsFri Jun 05 1992 21:328
    Some of us see Bonilla nearly every game, for better or worse :-).
    So far this year a couple of real nice catches, no errors, and no
    blatant mental errors when throwing the ball to the infield. He sure as
    heck ain't in Bond's or van Slyke's class of defense, but few players
    are.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.378CELTIK::JACOBLosing it from all the right placesFri Jun 05 1992 23:157
    re-.1
    
    Give him a chance, he'll surely distapoint ya when the games on the
    line, probably inm the very near future.
    
    JaKe
    
92.379An MVP doesn't act like thisSHALOT::MEDVIDPenguins: 91 &amp; 92 NHL Champs!Mon Jun 08 1992 11:2219
>    He sure as
>    heck ain't in Bond's or van Slyke's class of defense, but few players
>    are.
 
    Glad to hear you say that about Bonilla, TCM, because I just heard the
    following quote from Bonds on ESPN SportsCenter regarding the
    Pittsburgh fans booing Bonilla:
    
    "It's a black thing.  They would never do this to a white player.  They
    would never do it to VanSlyke...Mr. Pittsburgh."  
    
    There were a few other digs at white people and Andy in general that I
    couldn't memorize as they rolled by, but there were three screens full
    of negative comments about the fans and VanSlyke.  This solidifies it
    for me.  Trade the jerk now, pennant or not.  He doesn't deserve a
    city the class of Pittsburgh.  Let's hope he ends up in Cleveland.
    
    	--dan'l
    
92.380So he sticks up for a friend, and tells the truth...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Jun 08 1992 13:1821
         
    Dan'l, you don't believe that for a large segment of Pittsburgh's
    rooting populace Bonds doesn't speak the truth?  I was there during the
    drug trial years and just from casual conversations with many Pirate
    fans, I believe he is.  It's unfortunate that Bonds uses an active
    teammate in Van Slyke to make his point, but for his part I've heard
    Van Slyke state that he understands Bonds' point, knows his outspoken
    personality and doesn't have any problems with it...
    
    The Pittsburghers' treatment of Bonilla was totally unreasonable and 
    I have a hard time understanding what their problem is with the guy.
    Unlike Bonds, Bonilla generally kept his mouth shut, played hard and
    played hurt close to a 162 games a year.  Bobby Bonilla isn't the 
    first free agent to leave Pittsburgh and he won't be the last.  If and
    when Doug Drabek leaves will he be showered with abuse and have a golf
    ball thrown at him upon his return?  Let's face it, the fan behavior 
    was shameful and I for one think Bonds' comments in the face of that
    abuse have a lot of merit...
    
    glenn
    
92.381VanSlyke deserves applause for the way he handled businessSHALOT::MEDVIDPenguins: 91 &amp; 92 NHL Champs!Mon Jun 08 1992 14:0322
    The fans were booing because Bonilla turned down 26 million and left
    their Pirates.  For Bonds to suggest that the booing is racially
    motivated is shallow.  Bonilla did his own form of outspoken
    pompousness by refusing to talk contract after turning down the initial
    competitive offer.  
    
    The Pirates did everything they could to sign Bonilla.  He turned his
    nose at the team and the fans.  The fans feel betrayed and boo him.  If
    VanSlyke had acted the same way and he were now with New York or
    anybody else, you can bet he would be showered with the same abuse. 
    Instead, VanSlyke professionally and quietly signed an offer behind
    closed doors and announced it the next day.  Sure he's Mr. Pittsburgh. 
    He chose to stay with the team that allowed him to be the star he is.
    Loyalty is applauded.
    
    On ESPN yesterday, Dick Schapp said that booing Bonilla is just a
    warmup for the MVP (most volatile Pittsburgher) because next year they
    get to boo Barry Bonds...even if he goes to the American League,
    Pittsurghers will drive to Cleveland to boo him.  And deservedly so.  
    
    	--dan'l (who's considering rooting for the Cards until Bonds is
    	         out of Pittsburgh)
92.382I'm with Barry; it doesn't add up for me either...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Jun 08 1992 15:2066
    
    > Bonilla did his own form of outspoken
    > pompousness by refusing to talk contract after turning down the initial
    > competitive offer.
    
    This seems to me to be a contradiction or at the very least a gross
    exaggeration of what Bonilla did.  Ballplayers refuse to negotiate
    during the season all the time.  It's a source of leverage, and for
    those who are concerned that a ballplayer should have his mind on the
    game instead of his paycheck it's probably a good idea all the way
    around.  Kirby Puckett and Cal Ripken are currently taking exactly the
    same tack, and I don't hear anyone screaming about any such
    pompousness.  And no matter how much Pittsburgh fans want to revise
    history, unlike with the situations with Puckett and Ripken the Pirates 
    eventually came around to offering Bonilla what he originally demanded, 
    but by then his value had risen with the market and with another 100 R, 
    100 RBI season.  And after the delay in the Pirates coming to market
    value Bonilla's somehow obligated to take less money out of a sense of 
    "fairness" or even more ridiculously, "loyalty"?  The Pirates negotiated 
    tough and hard from a business perspective, and Bonilla did the same.  
    Loyalty is a two-way street.  
    
    > Instead, VanSlyke professionally and quietly signed an offer behind
    > closed doors and announced it the next day.  Sure he's Mr. Pittsburgh. 
      
    Van Slyke was offered and accepted a deal at $4+ million/year that was 
    well above his market value, based on price for performance (I'll reserve 
    judgment on his value after this season, but this was at the time).  They 
    didn't play hard ball with him at all, and Bonilla and Bonds have noticed
    this.  Before this season, Van Slyke hadn't hit with Bonilla and had been
    prone to injuries, missing 25+ games to injury on average over the last
    three years, in contrast to Bonilla, a virtual ironman.  Van Slyke hasn't 
    performed particularly well in the postseason, either, if that's an issue.
    If the Pirates had given Bonilla everything he'd wanted at the drop of a 
    hat as with Van Slyke I'm sure Bonilla would have handled it all very 
    quietly too.  As it was, he wasn't exactly a loudmouth about it.   
    
    > On ESPN yesterday, Dick Schapp said that booing Bonilla is just a
    > warmup for the MVP (most volatile Pittsburgher) because next year they
    > get to boo Barry Bonds...even if he goes to the American League,
    > Pittsurghers will drive to Cleveland to boo him.  And deservedly so.  
    
    Why can't Pirate fans adopt the wise and gracious attitude of their
    classy manager, Jim Leyland, he of the record $1 million/year longterm
    contract himself?  Leyland understands the business aspects to the game, 
    and even though he's had his run-ins with Bonds, he's on record that no
    one plays any harder than Bonds between the lines, and certainly no one
    plays better.  No one in baseball is as strong in all of the disciplines 
    of the game (hitting, hitting with power, fielding, throwing, and 
    running) as Bonds.  *No one*.  It's a shame that Pirate fans concentrate
    on Bonds' words, some of which really aren't so outrageous after all,
    to the exclusion of appreciating his talents and *effort*.  His manager 
    and his teammates do; why can't Pirates' fans?
    
    Bonds and his outspokenness may be a special case, but I repeat: what
    kind of a reception will Doug Drabek receive if and when he returns to
    Pittsburgh?  And if and when both Bonilla and Bonds are playing for
    someone else because the Pirates played hardball with them, citing
    unreasonable economic pressures, but both Van Slyke and Drabek end up
    with market or even above-market longterm contracts with the Pirates, 
    what does that tell you about Pirate management's priorities?  Not 
    winning, at least...
    
    glenn
      
                
92.383PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollMon Jun 08 1992 15:4513
92.384Random thoughts on Barry BondsGOBUCS::COOLEYForza PinguiniMon Jun 08 1992 16:2844
92.385ROYALT::ASHELaugh while you can, Monkey-boy...Mon Jun 08 1992 16:338
    Ok, dan'l, replace "Van Slyke" with "Bream" and tell me the difference?
    Bream got standing ovations when he left to go to Atlanta.  I think
    Bonds went overboard, but it's difficult to understand how Bream gets
    standing ovations even when he hits a HR against them and Bonilla gets
    pelted with stuff looking at it from an outsider.  Van Slyke and Bonilla
    handled their negotiations differently, but I think Bream's case is a
    better argument to Bonds' claim.
    
92.386Bream played the PR game wellSHALOT::MEDVIDPenguins: 91 &amp; 92 NHL Champs!Mon Jun 08 1992 16:5227
>    Ok, dan'l, replace "Van Slyke" with "Bream" and tell me the difference?
>    Bream got standing ovations when he left to go to Atlanta. 

    Before Bream left for Atlanta, he made a public statement that he loved
    Pittsburgh and wanted to stay in his "hometown" to play, but the
    Pirates organization was not cooperating in the contract talks (one of
    the main reasons being so they could have extra money to sign Bonilla
    who left anyway).  Bream didn't make statements like Bonds and he didn't
    take the money and run like Bonilla.  He endeared himself to Pittsburgh
    before he left.  

    In addition, keep in mind that Bream got that standing O when the
    Pirates were ahead 6-0 in the top of the 9th.  It's easy to be gracious
    when you're winning.

    As far as my Pirates loyalties are concerned, yes I'll still root for
    them, but the Cards have always been #2 on my list of favorite baseball
    teams.  Bonds raises my temper with his spoiled-boy rantings.  My
    favorite team would be much more enjoyable for me if he were not on it. 

    I don't care if they were mired in the middle of the league, I wouldn't
    have to hear the jerk demean his teammates, my hometown, and my friends
    and neighbors.  Get where I'm coming from?  When Bonds makes statements
    like he does, he insults me personally.  Why shouldn't I be angry and
    hurt?

    	--dan'l
92.387ROYALT::ASHELaugh while you can, Monkey-boy...Mon Jun 08 1992 17:0134
92.388Barry wants more money than Rhino.BASEX::BROWNMon Jun 08 1992 17:018
    
    
    Rumour has that Bonds has stated Ryne Sandburg's contract
    isn't enough for him.
    
    AFTTF -  Adding fuel to the fire.
    
    \pjb
92.389Bottom line (refrain): I'd pay money to see him on my team...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Jun 08 1992 18:0030
    
    > I don't care if they were mired in the middle of the league, I wouldn't
    > have to hear the jerk demean his teammates, my hometown, and my friends
    > and neighbors.  Get where I'm coming from?  When Bonds makes statements
    > like he does, he insults me personally.  Why shouldn't I be angry and
    > hurt?
    
    Maybe you should, and maybe should look at his point of view and say
    that maybe there's something to that too.  You may even have some
    common ground, and maybe some of what Bonds is experiencing is subtle or
    even unintentional (when I was in Pittsburgh, with the frustration
    level high based on the poor play of the team and the drug scandal, I 
    heard stuff about the racial makeup of the Pirates that was neither, but 
    then again that's not unique to Pittsburgh) but he sees it and responds 
    to it nonetheless.  Maybe from his background he doesn't, as has been 
    suggested, understand the value of playing the part of dedicated company 
    man (this means more to some fans than others).  Depending on his frame 
    of mind, I *have* heard Bonds say in the past that he'd like to play in 
    Pittsburgh (I know he likes and respects Leyland), but that's all long
    gone by now...
    
    As for Bonilla, I'll never understand that one.  He always seemed to me
    to be a hard-working, nose-to-the-grindstone player, and a likable guy
    to boot, especially for a New Yorker (just kidding!).  The only thing I
    can see with Bonilla is that he took the money and didn't apologize for
    doing so, but that's the case with 9 out of 10 players these days (and
    no slight as far as I'm concerned).
    
    glenn
    
92.390I'll stick with PopsSHALOT::MEDVIDPenguins: 91 &amp; 92 NHL Champs!Mon Jun 08 1992 18:2110
    OK, seems like we're going around in circles here.  Let me just state
    that I don't like Barry Bonds.  Everyone else is welcome to admire
    Barry Bonds for whatever reason you want to, speaking his mind, being
    the best player in the game, being a black role model, going after all
    the money he can.
    
    I'll stick with admiring Willie Stargell as I have done since I was
    about five years old.  Thanks.
    
    	--dan'l
92.391One last point...SHALOT::MEDVIDPenguins: 91 &amp; 92 NHL Champs!Mon Jun 08 1992 18:3411
>    As for Bonilla, I'll never understand that one...The only thing I
>    can see with Bonilla is that he took the money and didn't apologize for
>    doing so, 
    
    Glenn, you are forgetting one very important factor as to why the
    Pirate fans were unmerciful this past week...Bonilla went to the one
    team more than any other that Pittsburgh loves to hate...the team that,
    BTW, lost 3 of 4 to the Pirates.  8-)
    
    	--dan'l  
    
92.392CELTIK::JACOBLosing it from all the right placesMon Jun 08 1992 20:2341
    FWIW,                                                                
    
    Sid Bream did indeed want to stay in Pittsburgh and play for the Bucs.
    The Bucs had offered him a contract at a higher pay, per year, than the
    one he eventually signed with the Braves.
    
    The reason he went, was that he wanted a longer contract(2 or 3 years)
    and the Pirates only wanted to sign him for one.  
    
    Bream had his agent call the Bucs with Atlanta's offer BEFORE he signed
    with the Braves, and offered to play for even LESS than what the Braves
    gave him, if the Bucs would give him a longer contract than one year.
    
    The Bucs turned him down.
    
    This demonstration of how he WANTED to stay in Pittsburgh, almost at
    any cost(short of contract length) is what FURTHER endeared him to the
    Pittsburgh fans.
    
    Bonilla left with a kiss-my-ass attitude.  It was truly a case of "take
    the money and run".  Now I don't fault a guy fer getting all the money
    he can, hell, I'd do the same if I was in sports, but the guy was as
    loyal to the Bucs as a rotten grapefruit, telling them when
    negotiations started that there was no way they'd come up with signing
    sort of cash fer him.
    
    Bonds thinks he's going to get $$$ to go with his mega-sized ego.  This
    year will not, IMHO, be a year of the multiple record $$$ signings,
    seeing as you could make an all-star team with the players eligible for
    free agency this year, coupled with the lack of a big $$$ TV contract,
    and the owners will be stingy with the cash.
    
    Bonds should feel lucky if anybody offers him Sandberg style money.
    
    If he's thinks he's so damned great, let him negotiate with some
    Japanese team and go play there.
    
    JaKe
    
    
    
92.393I'd boo the Mets, too, although the hateable characters are gone ;-)NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Jun 08 1992 20:2724
    Dan'l, I hear you; we all have our heroes.  I was/am a big fan of
    Stargell, too, but I also think it was easier to be a "hero" in his
    day, or at least it seems that way from the perspective of youth. 
    Stargell wasn't perfect, but I don't expect any athlete to be.  I've 
    already pointed out Stargell's poor postseason performance (something
    Bonds has been hammered for regularly in Pittsburgh) before 1979, and 
    his was among the names that surfaced in the Pittsburgh drug scandal.
    Considering the time and the circumstances, to me Stargell's image as
    a classy *ballplayer* wasn't tarnished.  With Bonds it may be his 
    mouth that goes overboard and gets him into trouble (I don't recall 
    Stargell engaging in any negativism-- with the possible exception of
    when Pirate management let him go as a coach, too-- but that was his 
    style), but I can similarly live with that and appreciate Bonds for 
    what he's paid to do, the sum of his existence for my knowledge and 
    benefit, which is to play ball... 
    
    Stargell versus Bonds as human beings and their endeavors outside
    baseball is a topic that I don't have much information on, but is
    outside of the scope of what I really care to know.  Who am I to 
    judge based on what I personally know about either below the surface?
    
    glenn
    
92.394ROYALT::ASHELaugh while you can, Monkey-boy...Mon Jun 08 1992 22:112
    Sounds like Bonds deserves the debris more than Bonilla...
    
92.395Willie Starge was my fav Pitt baseball player!7389::FARLEYMegabucks Winner WannabeTue Jun 09 1992 01:441
    
92.396CELTIK::JACOBLosing it from all the right placesTue Jun 09 1992 19:539
    Bucs lost to the Philth-adelphia Phillies lasted night, 7-0.
    
    Fortunaately, the Mets cooperated by losing and the Cards dropped a
    pair to the Cubbies.
    
    GO BUCS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.397CELTIK::JACOBLosing it from all the right placesWed Jun 10 1992 03:476
    Bucs beat the Phillies
    
    Mucking Fets won, lead stAYS AT 3 GAMES FOR THE BUCCOS.
    
    JaKe
    
92.398Mets in '92ACESMK::FRANCUSPittsburgh Penguins, 1992 Stanley Cup ChampionsWed Jun 10 1992 14:544
    Fittsburgh Pucks also won 5-3.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.399CELTIK::JACOBLosing it from all the right placesThu Jun 11 1992 03:569
    Bucs beat the Philthy-delphia Phillies tonite, 2-1 in 12 innings.
    
    The Muckin' Fets and the Cards losted tonite, so the Bucs lead is 4
    games over both.
    
    GO BUCS!!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.400CELTIK::JACOBLosing it from all the right placesSat Jun 13 1992 02:308
    Bucs beat the Muckin' Fets 2nite. Lead over the Fets is now 5 games,
    and will be either 4 or 5 games over the Cards, depending on what they
    do tonite.
    
    Tomlin gets the win, he's now 8-3, atterson gets the save, his third.
    
    JaKe
    
92.401Mets in '92ACESMK::FRANCUSPittsburgh Penguins, 1992 Stanley Cup ChampionsSun Jun 14 1992 18:0611
    Tomlin is now 7-0 against the Mets, at least he didn't opitch a
    complete game again :-(
    
    Mets lost Sat night 3-2. A 9 inning game that took almost 4 hours. The
    Fittsburgh Pucks left lots of men on base. Mets had a 2-1 lead on a
    clutch hit by HoJo, but middle relief blew it again.
    
    Gooden vs Drabek today.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.402CELTIK::JACOBLosing it from all the right placesMon Jun 15 1992 04:2311
    Think the Muckin' Fets will be glad to see the Bucs leave town?????
    
    Bucs are now, what, 6-1 versus the Fets???
    
    
    Luv it
    
    GO BUCS!!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.403Sweep at Shea; doesn't get any sweeter...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Jun 15 1992 13:2011
    The Bucs have flat-out owned the New York Not-Yets the last three 
    seasons, no?  Gotta love it...
    
    Any of you guys find yourselves way down deep summoning even the 
    slightest bit of appreciation for Bonds when he went deep to knot
    things up late in Saturday night's game?  Or would it have been 
    better to lose than to further stroke Bar's giant ego?  ;-) 
    
    glenn
    
92.404for what it's worthJARETH::YANKOWSKASPaul YankowskasMon Jun 15 1992 13:379
    Note the "vs. NL East" column in today's standings.
    
    Pirates are 26-6 within the division.
    
    Other than the Cubs at one game over .500, no other NL East team has a
    winning record within the division.
    
    
    py
92.405Bonds is Day-to-DayGOBUCS::COOLEYForza PinguiniMon Jun 15 1992 14:3515
>>  Pirates are 26-6 within the division.

Too bad they'd have to play against the West to get to the W.S.

Anybody know what the record for best winning percentage within a division is?
26-6 works out to .813!

The Bucs don't look to dominating, though, they just find a way to win.

I was watching the end of the game on WOR on sunday when it looked like
Barry Bonds was shot or something.  He took a swing and just crumbled.
Turns out he just pulled a muscle -- must have been a big muscle.

Warren
92.406AXIS::ROBICHAUDMon Jun 15 1992 16:254
    	Guess the Mets are going to need another trip to the vault to
    be a contender.
    
    				/Don
92.407Mets in '92ACESMK::FRANCUSPittsburgh Penguins, 1992 Stanley Cup ChampionsMon Jun 15 1992 18:359
    re: .406
    
    Guess by your definition the Red SOx are also out of it.
    
    Lousy weekend. Bah humbug. We'll see if the Fittsburgh Pucks (tm)
    will stay this hot for a while.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.408NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Jun 15 1992 19:0710
    
    > Guess by your definition the Red SOx are also out of it.
    
    That comes pretty close to summing it up.  Except the Mets are actually
    in better shape having to chase only one team that's a ways out in
    front, and having 12 games left with the Pirates to the Red Sox' 5 with
    the Jays (thanks to the screwed-up AL balanced schedule...)
    
    glenn
    
92.409Another four way pennant race?CTHQ2::LEARYSix, two, and even.Mon Jun 15 1992 19:118
    Alright you NL Feasters,
    Give us a shortened analysis on the chances the others ( read Cards,
    Expos) have in keeping up with the Mets and Bucs. And cain the Mets
    catch the Bucs in the dog days of August?
    
    deen to wonk,
    MikeL
    
92.410ROYALT::ASHEIrregular-heart-beatin,sushi-pukin,Quayle-bashin...Mon Jun 15 1992 19:123
    Depends on the Cards pitching.  I don't think the Expos have the depth
    after Martinez and Hill.  The Cards have a shot to hang in..
    
92.411Mets in '92ACESMK::FRANCUSPittsburgh Penguins, 1992 Stanley Cup ChampionsMon Jun 15 1992 21:0912
    Mets chances depends on 2 critical things.
    
    1) HoJo has truly got to start hitting. He did a bit this weekend. but
    it still is not enough.
    
    2) Getting Saberhagen back and having him pitch like he was pitching
    the 4-5 games before he got injured.
    
    #2 is more critical than #1.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.412CELTIK::JACOBLosing it from all the right placesTue Jun 16 1992 02:385
    Bucs lose to the Phillies tonite, but the Cards lost to the Cubbies so
    the lead remains at 5 games.
    
    JaKe
    
92.413Got my p-name back, no better place to reuse itACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Tue Jun 16 1992 04:343
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.414CELTIK::JACOBLosing it from all the right placesWed Jun 17 1992 04:158
    Bucs win in 12 innings.  Cards and Cubs lost, Bucs lead is now 6 games.
    
    Muckin' Fets won too, but they're still, what, 7 back???
    
    GO BUCS!!!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.415CELTIK::JACOBLosing it from all the right placesThu Jun 18 1992 20:394
    Bucs won lasted night, Cards-Cubs rained out.  Lead now 6-1/2 games.
    
    JaKe
    
92.416CELTIK::JACOBLosing it from all the right placesFri Jun 19 1992 03:417
    Bucs lose to the Expos(ed)onite, 4-0.
    
    Don't know what the Cards or Cubs did, but at the worts, the Bucs will
    end the day up 5 games.
    
    JaKe
    
92.417CELTIK::JACOBLosing it from all the right placesSat Jun 20 1992 02:239
    Bucs lose second straight to the Expos(ed), 2-1 tonite.
    
    Drabek took the loss, although he pitched a 5 hjitter and only gave up
    2 runs, the Bucs anemic bats couldn't get going.
    
    See y'all in a week
    
    JaKe
    
92.418ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Thu Jun 25 1992 16:027
    Fittsburgh Pucks lose to St. Louis 4-1. Mets win 3-2. Pitt leads
    by 6 games.
    
    Barry Bonds was placed on the DL.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.419CELTIK::JACOBRelaxed and renewedWed Jul 01 1992 19:5511
    Bucs get second straight shut-out over St. Louis today, 1-0.
    Zane Smith pitched a 5 hitter.  
    
    Lasted night, the Bucs beat the Cards, with Doug Drabek pitching a
    3-hit shutout.
    
    The Mucking Fets are playing the Cubbies today, and lasted i heard, the
    Cubs were losing, 2-0.
    
    JaKe
    
92.420CELTIK::JACOBI play ARMY golf, left-right-left-rightMon Jul 06 1992 20:4314
    Whatta crummy weekend for baseball in Pittsburgh.
    
    The Sinsinati Reds come into town with their tails between their legs
    from a severe horse whipping in Houscum and proceed to shut off the
    Pirate bats and sweep the four game series.
    
    Bucs had fair pitching, but couldn't get ANY hitting when it was
    needed.
    
    The Bucs have only scored something like 11 runs in their lasted 8
    games.
    
    JaKe
    
92.421CELTIK::JACOBSun-ripened for Mildness!Wed Jul 08 1992 03:598
    Bucs win second straight over Houscum Assho...er...Astros, tonite.
    
    Lasted night Zane SMith pitched a great game and Orlando Merced hit a
    420 ft homer for the win, don't have any details on tonites game, 'cept
    for the fact they won, 5-3.
    
    JaKe
    
92.422PEAKS::WOESTEHOFFWed Jul 08 1992 15:2510
  JaKe,

	Thanks fer puttin in all these updates on the Buc's games and what is
  going on with the Pirate's organization and the fans. There are a few
  of us long time Pirate fans who appreciate gettin a little more info than
  our papers provide here in remote parts of the country.  
    
	Beat em Bucs,

		Keith
92.423FWIWBSS::JCOTANCHWed Jul 08 1992 16:004
    Last night's Bucs game featured the first unassisted double play by an
    outfielder in 18 years.
    
    Joe
92.424hamAD::HEATHWed Jul 08 1992 17:092
    
    Van Slyke is a ham.
92.425PEAKS::WOESTEHOFFWed Jul 08 1992 17:118
>    Last night's Bucs game featured the first unassisted double play by an
>    outfielder in 18 years.
    
  OK, I give up, how did an outfielder perform an unassisted double play ?

  Did he catch a fly ball and then tag a runner out ?

	Keith
92.426WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_MDONBO,DANBO,AND ROBERTBO...Wed Jul 08 1992 17:1811
    
    
         No he caught a short flyball and the runner on first thought there
    was already 2 down so he was all the way to third. AVS ran (jogged) all
    the way to first to get him out.
    
    BTW for some reason he also pushed Redus the Buck 1st baseman out of
    the way. 
    
       The centerfielder on my Semi Fast softball team has done this same
    thing twice this year. W/O the push though.
92.427Wannabelyke VanSlykeSHALOT::MEDVIDskip the hearts and flowersWed Jul 08 1992 19:297
    The paper says VanSlyke "bounced the ball basketball-style between
    second and first and playfilly fought off first baseman Gary Redus to
    make the force out."
    
    I didn't see it.  What does bouncing the ball basketball style mean?
    
    	--dan'l
92.428;-)HBAHBA::HAASHead down FrogmanWed Jul 08 1992 19:318
>    ... What does bouncing the ball basketball style mean?

You work a deal with corporate sponsors, get named to the Dream Team,
violate all spirit of the Olympics and drub any and all opponents.

HTH, etc.

TTom
92.429ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Wed Jul 08 1992 20:014
    nah, just means that he was playing on phony turf
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.430EARRTH::BROOKSMoons Over My Hammy ...Wed Jul 08 1992 20:396
    Nope, he walked a long way, just like NBA players do on their way to
    the hoop.
    
    :-)
    
    Doc
92.431Why show them up?GWEN::ASHEDon't leave me hangin, I wanna be ganginWed Jul 08 1992 21:203
    He bounced it off da turf.  If I were Houston, Van Slyke woulda been
    on his butt the nexted time up...
    
92.432CELTIK::JACOBSun-ripened for Mildness!Tue Jul 21 1992 19:536
    Bucs took a 7-3 lead into the 4th lasted night and then the wheels fell
    off and they ended up losing, 11-8.  Team needs some relief help,
    badly.
    
    JaKe
    
92.433CELTIK::JACOBSun-ripened for Mildness!Wed Jul 22 1992 19:537
    Bucs blew ANOTHER lead lasted night, they had lead 3-0 and ended up
    losing 4-3 in extra innings(not sure how many) to the Houscum A$$h_les.
    
    Bucs lead is now ~3 games.
    
    JaKe
    
92.434ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Wed Jul 22 1992 20:366
    Thats 3 blown leads in a row, plus that game in Chicago on Sunday.
    
    Keep up the good work.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.435Parade in PittsburgXCELR8::DHAMELWed Jul 22 1992 20:517
    
    >    Thats 3 blown leads in a row, plus that game in Chicago on Sunday.
    
    What will they offer for one Jeff Rearend, the all-time save leader?
    
    Dickstah
    
92.436At least the Mutts are within range( damn)CTHQ4::LEARYChainsaw: Possible ND convert?Thu Jul 23 1992 13:229
    Well the Buccos finally won lasted night in OT.
    
    Hey Craze, Think the Mutts and the RedFlops can set up another
    exhibition match just like they did in '86. This year they can
    feature the two most overrated teams.  
    
    8^),
    MikeL
    
92.4374th Blown Lead in a Row?SHALOT::MEDVIDdancin' pretzelsThu Jul 23 1992 13:2610
    What happened last night?  I went to bed after I heard the Astros had
    once again come back to take the game into extra innings.  The score
    was tied 7-7 in the 10th.
    
    If I'm Bonds and VanSlyke, I gotta be pretty sick of carrying the team
    only to have the relief pitchers blow the games.  I think you'll be
    seeing some starting lineup players being traded real soon for some
    bull pen studs.
    
    	--dan'l
92.438Mike Leary...mindreaderSHALOT::MEDVIDdancin' pretzelsThu Jul 23 1992 13:291
    
92.439Won by a field goal, 10-7CTHQ4::LEARYChainsaw: Possible ND convert?Thu Jul 23 1992 13:431
    
92.440ask and ye shall receive - well sometimesACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Thu Jul 23 1992 14:3460
From pa.dec.com!decwrl!looking!clarinews Thu Jul 23 10:36:30 EDT 1992
Article 16207 of clari.sports.baseball:
Path: e2big.mko.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!looking!clarinews
>From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.baseball
Subject: Pirates 10, Astros 7, 13 inn.
Keywords: baseball, men's professional, broadcast
Message-ID: <Bbbn-astrosU2lN150ae@clarinet.com>
References: <Bbbn-astrosU2lG1155pe@clarinet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 23:02:47 PDT
Location: pennsylvania, texas
ACategory: sports
Slugword: bbn-astros
Priority: regular
Format: game story
ANPA: Wc: 394; Id: z0649; Sel: xxsbp; Adate: 7-23-150aed; Ver: 6/0
Approved: clarinews@clarinet.com
Codes: ysbpgxx., bsbpgxx., &sbpgpa., &sbpgtx.

	HOUSTON (UPI) -- Orlando Merced stroked an RBI single and Jose Lind a
two-run double in the 13th inning Wednesday night to give the Pittsburgh
Pirates a 10-7 win over the Houston Astros.
	With one out in the 13th, Barry Bonds drew a walk from Willie Blair,
2-5, and stole second. Merced then blooped a 3-2 pitch into center field
to score Bonds with the go-ahead run.
	The Pirates loaded the bases on a single by Mike LaValliere and walk
to pinch-hitter Cecil Espy before Lind lined a pitch over the head of
Gerald Young in right field, which bounced over the wall for a ground-
rule double.
	Stan Belinda, 4-2, notched the win with two innings of scoreless
relief. Bob Patterson retired the side in order in the bottom of the
13th to earn his sixth save.
	The teams banged out a combined 32 hits while battling for almost
five hours. The Pirates outhit the Astros, 18-14. The game featured
three ties and four lead changes.
	Pittsburgh ended a three-game losing streak.
	The Pirates jumped to a 2-0 lead in the first on an RBI double by Jay
Bell and run-scoring single by Jeff King.
	Houston tagged starter Randy Tomlin for five runs on seven
consecutive hits with two outs in the fourth inning. After Tomlin got
Casey Candaele and Ken Caminiti on ground balls, Jeff Bagwell rocketed a
double off the center-field wall to start the rally.
	Pete Incaviglia singled in Bagwell for the Astros' first run. Before
the onslaught ended, Scott Servais and Gerald Young added RBI singles
and Pete Harnisch a two-run double. The seven straight hits fell one
short of the Astros' club record, set in 1966 against Cincinnati.
	The Pirates tied the score 5-5 in the fifth on an RBI triple by Andy
Van Slyke and a two-run homer by Bonds, his 18th home run of the year.
	Pittsburgh took a 6-5 lead in the seventh. Alex Cole led off with a
single, stole second and scored on Van Slyke's bloop single to left
center that Young misplayed.
	The Astros scored twice in the bottom of the seventh to regain the
lead. Bagwell walked and scored on Incaviglia's double to left center.
Incaviglia advanced to third on a fielder's choice and scored on Young's
bloop single.
	The Pirates tied it 7-7 with a run in the eighth. Lind led off with a
double and scored on Gary Varsho's pinch-hit single up the middle.


    
92.441CELTIK::JACOBSun-ripened for Mildness!Tue Jul 28 1992 19:4510
    Bucs lost to the Cubbies lasted night and they're losing right now  to
    those same Cubbies.
    
    Going into today's game the Bucs lead has dwinled to 1 game over the
    Montreal Expos(ed).
    
    Sheez, time to light a fire under this teams a$$.
    
    JaKe
    
92.442Losing control...Beuschel trade looking badSHALOT::MEDVIDthe profits of addictive extinctionTue Jul 28 1992 19:5111
    Score is 6-0 in the fifth.  VanSlyke and Bell have just thrown major
    temper tantrums in the dugout, Andy throwing helmets and bell chucking
    armfuls of bats down the tunnel.
    
    Dawson made an awsome catch for a gimpy man with the bases loaded and
    two outs to keep the Bucs from scoring in the fourth.
    
    Hey TCM, remember what I said in E-mail about the Expos last week? 
    Three more days left in July.
    
    	--dan'l
92.443Expos'l fizzle in AugustCTHQ4::LEARYChainsaw: Possible ND convert?Tue Jul 28 1992 20:048
    Is anyone gonna take charge in this division. The Cubs and Cards
    are only 5 1/2 out. Cain the lowly Phils, although 10 games out,
    make a charge?  As long as the Mutts stay leashed in the middle.
    
    MikeL
    
    I'm bettin' on the Bucs staggerin' to win the thang.
    
92.444go cubbiesACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Tue Jul 28 1992 20:1810
    dan'l
    
    You beat me to the punch I was about to reply that you sent me
    email that said the Expos would be in 1st before the month of July was
    over. I of course, in my infinite wisdom, pooh-poohed that absurd
    notion. Glad it wasn;t in notes or after tonight I might have had to
    post in the crow note.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.445CELTIK::JACOBSun-ripened for Mildness!Tue Jul 28 1992 20:454
    Bucs lose, 10-1.  Sure does sip indiscreetly!!!    (8^(*
    
    JaKe
    
92.446A good start to the eveningACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Tue Jul 28 1992 20:557
    Jake,
    
    Thanks for the good news. Nice to see the Fittsburgh Pucks having this
    kind of road trip.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.447Clemente ISA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Wed Jul 29 1992 17:34132

	Well, since the Pirates are sipping wind, and since I've temporarily
resurrected Clemente from the grave, I thought I'd keep it up with a few
articles I have here at work.

	There are 3 articles.
  
	Reprinted without permission from the _Three Rivers Stadium Souvenir
Book_ by Charley Feeney,  Copyright 1970


	The Complete Clemente 


	There are ballplayers and there are ballplayers.  There are superstars
and, in rare cases, super, super stars.  
	Some stars stir fans with their home runs. Others with their base hits
and speed.
	Few players in baseball history have excited baseball fans in as many
ways as Roberto Clemente, who has been known to win ball games with his arm,
legs, glove, bat and sometime just by being present in right field for the
Pittsburgh Pirates.
	Before Clemente finishes his brilliant Pirate career, which began in
1955, he will rank among the top 10 men in numerous offensive departments.
	A post is waiting for the most exciting Pirate in history in 
Cooperstown, N.Y., where Baseball's Hall of Fame is located.
	But there is still plenty of baseball left in Roberto Clemente who has
proven his is capable of achieving fantastic heights on a baseball diamond.
	He generated excitement at grand old Forbes Field for close to 15 and
one-half baseball seasons and he will continue his exciting play at the Three
Rivers Stadium.
	"There will be a day when I will stop playing baseball," Roberto 
Clemente says, "but I will never stop loving baseball.  It has done so much
for me and my family and in some ways for my people in Puerto Rico.  It 
showed them that baseball is open to everybody."
	Fans who have watched Clemente through the years will never forget
him.
	Neither will opposing players and managers.
	Casey Stengel, who managed the Yankees against the Pirates in the 1960
World Series, was in awe of Clemente.
	"When I saw our scouting reports of the Pirates, I couldn't believe
what was said about Clemente.  They had him rated No. 1 in everything.  I 
accused my scouts of watching superman movies instead of the Pirates.  If I
missed something out of baseball, it was not getting a chance to see Clemente
play every day."
	Red Schoendienst, who managed the Cardinals to pennants in 1967 and
'68, calls Clemente "close to the most perfect ballplayer of all time."
	"Clemente can go hitless, not catch a fly ball or throw a runner out,
and still help his club win a ball game," Schoendienst says.
	"Many times a base runner won't attempt to take an extra base on a 
single because of respect for Clemente's arm.  Sometimes the runner has an 
80-20 chance to make it, be he won't risk it.  Clemente has earned that
respect and a little thing like that can help the Pirates win a close game."
	Schoendienst was on the Cardinal bench one night in Pittsburgh when
Clemente made on of the greatest throws ever seen of a ball field...and 
ironically he was charged with an error on the play.
	With Orlando Cepeda on first base, Tim McCarver singled to right.
Clemente charged the ball which skidded through his legs and rolled to the 
wall at the 375-foot marker.  Clemente retrieved, and threw from the base of
the wall an on-the-fly strike to Catcher Jerry May nailing the startled 
Cepeda by three feet.  
	Leo Ward, Card's traveling secretary, who has watched baseball for 
close to 55 years, said afterwards:
	"If I didn't see that throw with my own eyes, I wouldn't have believed.
I'm still not sure that it happened.  Clemente threw a baseball almost 400
feet on the line.  Unbelievable!"
	Roberto Clemente undoubtedly will go down as the greatest baseball
draft in history.  The Pirates selected him off the Montreal roster (Brooklyn
Dodger farm) after the 1954 season.  He batted .257 at Montreal and batted
.255 as a Pirate rookie in 1955.  Two years later, Clemente batted .253.  Those
are the only two campaigns where Clemente showed any mediocrity with the bat.
He went on to win four National League batting titles and batted over .300
for eight successive seasons, beginning in 1960 when he helped lead the Pirates
to the world championship.
	Pittsburgh General Manager Joe Brown rewarded Clemente's greatness
with a $100,000 contract-a first in Pirate history-after the 1966 season when
Clemente was named the most valuable player in the National League.
	Most often the MVP award goes to members of pennant winning teams.
But Clemente's achievements in 1966 overshadowed the great work of such 
performers as Sandy Koufax of the pennant-winning Los Angeles Dodgers and
Willie Mays and Willie McCovey, both of the second-place San Francisco Giants.
The Pirates finished a close-up third in 1966.  It was a year when Pirate 
manager Harry Walker asked Clemente to sacrifice some part of his batting 
average and go for the long ball.
	Clemente responded as only Clemente can.
	He belted a personal high 29 homeruns and drove in 119 runs.  His
average was a most respectable .317.
	In 1967, Clemente did it all.  He slugged 23 homers, batted in 110
runs and finished with a resounding .357 average and his fourth bat crown.
	He also set a major league record in 1967 by leading the National
League in outfield assists for the fifth time.
	Clemente is a rare two-time Pittsburgh Dapper Dan award winner.  He
won it following the 1961 season when he batted .351 and again after the 1966
campaign.
	Joe Brown, Pirates' GM, has seen most of Clemente's baseball
accomplishments.
	"I rate Clemente with the Williams, Mantles, Mays, Aarons...all the
great ones,"  Brown says, "He has done more to excite fans in Pittsburgh than
any player I have ever known."
	Through the years, Clemente has had more than his share of injuries.
He played the entire 1968 season with a damaged right shoulder and managed
to hit .291.
	Injuries slowed him in 1969.  He batted only .242 in the first 27
games.  In the last 111 games, he hit at a .373 clip to finish at .345 at 
age 35.
	Perhaps in another baseball era, Clemente would have added another 
plus to his numerous achievements.
	He is an excellent base-runner, with good speed.
	"Under the right circumstances," Joe Brown says, "Clemente could have
been one of the great base-stealers in history.  But he batted mostly in the
third spot in the batting order and his chances to steal bases were reduced
because of the home-run potential of the man who batted behind him.  And a
runner on base ahead of him."
	Clemente is a daring base-runner.  he has taken an extra base numerous
times during his career, setting up victories.
	Three thousand base-hits are not beyond Roberto Clemente's reach.  He
has a chance...a good chance.
	Before he is finished playing, he will rate among the top 10 in the
National League in hits, runs scored, total bases, and other bat departments.
	Clemente has made a reservation for himself in baseball's Hall of
Fame.
	But the Hall of Fame will have to wait.
	Roberto Clemente is still wearing a Pittsburgh Pirate uniform.  He
remains the most electrifying, most exciting ball player to wear a Pittsburgh
uniform.
	He will go down as one of the great right-handed batters in history.
He is the complete ballplayer, highly-keyed, intense, determined.
	Any fan who watched Roberto Clemente play just one baseball game will
never forget him.  
	The great ones are never forgotten.

92.448Clemente IISA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Wed Jul 29 1992 17:3489
	Part 2

	Reprinted without permission from the _1974 All-Star Game Program_
by Dick Young, a writer for the New York Daily News.

	Clemente...So Dedicated, So Dominating

	Pittsburgh, Oct. 13, 1971---The best damn ballplayer in the World
Series, maybe in the whole world, is Roberto Clemente, and as far as I'm
concerned they can give him the automobile right now.
	Maybe some guys hit the ball farther, and some throw it harder, and
one or two run faster, although I doubt that, but nobody puts it all together
like Roberto.
	"He's showing the others how to play the game, isn't he?" said Lee
MacPhail at Press Hq., where lots of people, in lots of little groups, were
talking up the Roberto Clemente for-the-automobile movement.
	
	Roberto Gives Dignity to Word Hustler

	They were talking not only of how well Clemente plays the game, but how
hard he play it.  Mainly how hard.  In this day of the prima-donna athlete,
the guy who isn't in the mood to run out a ground ball, or chase a fly, Roberto
Clemente give dignity to the word hustler.
	The true test of the baseball hustler is what he does hen his team
is losing.  In the firs tow games, when the Orioles were beating the brains
out of the Pirates, you would hear baseball people saying, "How about that
Clemente!" and there was a professional admiration which those in the game like
to believe is their exclusive property.
	"Greatest throw I ever saw by an outfielder," said Any Etchebarren
after Game 2.  He meant the play by Roberto Clemente in the middle of the game.
The strangest part was that the throw didn't get anybody; didn't mean a thing.
It came in the midst of a six-run Baltimore inning, at a time when a player
on the losing team might be expected to start going through the motions.
	Clemente raced to the right line, caught Frank Robinson's fly on his
glove side, did a complete spinning turn and fired a strike to third, where 
the runner was sliding in on a tag-up advance.  The runner was Merv Rettenmund,
a quickie.
	"You'd have had him if it weren't Rettenmund," a praising newsman said
afterward.
	"Eef I have my good arm thee ball get there a leetle quicker than he
gets there," said Clemente.

	Playing With Sore Shoulder Since July

	Roberto has been playing with a sore shoulder since late July. It is
one of the inside jokes of baseball that Roberto Clemente always is playing
with some ache or pain, and the more he hurts the more dangerous he becomes.
Somebody once said that three years after he is dead, Roberto will lead the 
National League in hitting.
	"They laugh at me, but I heet thee ball," says Roberto, pointing to
his teammates.
	There is very little humor in Roberto Clemente, and none at all where
baseball is involved.  It is his life, his escape.  It has given the little
boy from Carolina, Puerto Rico, with the running nose and the kicked-out knee
in his pants, a chance to become rich, to live in a large and elegant home
he has had built in Rio Piedras, and you do not laugh at such things.
	"When we have a meeting een thee clubhouse, when Harry Walker ees thee
manager," says Roberto, "thee writers say that Clemente he ees taking the team
away from Walker.  Thee press crucify me, but they do not know what ees all
about.  I tell thee players, either you play baseball, or you don't play
baseball.  Eet ees not too much that you geev one hundred percent.  That ees
thee on'y theeng that make me mad, when a player don't ron."
	In Game 3, Roberto Clemente hit a ground ball to the right side first
time up.  It was stamped DP.  The Orioles got one.  In the seventh, Clemente
led off with a bouncer back to the box.  Mike Cuellar knocked it down, picked
it up, was aghast to see the batter streaking down the line hurried his throw,
high, and Clemente was safe.  The next batter walked on four pitches, the next
batter hit the ball out of the park.  Mike Cuellar's composure was shattered.
The game was over.
	"It all began with Clemente hustling to first," said Cardinal star
Joe Torre, who is here and who probably will be MVP.  "He knows only one way
to play this game."
	He knows, too, that he must take care of himself, or he will squander
the gifts he hs been given, as do so many.  "I weel go home after the Worl
Seeries," he says, "an' rest my shoul'er for a leetle while, then I weel
exercise to make eet strong, and next year I come back, an' hope eet weel be
thee way eet should be.  I have eet always eeen my head t take good care of 
my body.  Some players go home an' start drikin' and eatin' peanuts and come
to camp weeth beeg bellies."
	Roberto Clemente is a 37-year-old roadrunner.  He has spent 18 summers
of those years playing baseball for the Pittsburgh Pirates.  He has batted
over .300 thirteen times, and for the last three seasons, in his decrepitude,
he has hit .345....352...341.
	But everyone has numbers.  Don't mind the numbers.  Just watch how
Roberto Clemente runs 90 feet the next time he hits the ball back to the
pitcher and ask yourself if you work at your job that way.  Everytime I see
Roberto Clemente play ball, I think of the times I've heard about how "they"
dog it, and I want to vomit.
92.449Clemente IIISA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Wed Jul 29 1992 17:3590
	Part III

	Reprinted without permission from the 1987 _Pirates Centennial
Yearbook_ by John Mehno.

	Roberto Clemente

	Finishing last in the National League in 1954 was one of the best
things that ever happened to the Pittsburgh Pirates.  A 53-101 record put the
Pirates 11 games behind the seventh-place Chicago Cubs and assured them of first
choice in the minor league draft.
	On November 22, 1954, that option and $4,000 brought Roberto Clemente
to Pittsburgh from the roster of the International League's Montreal Royals.
It was barely a ripple in the day's sports news but after 3,000 hits, 12 gold
gloves, three divisional titles, and two World Championships, who can dispute
the importance of that transaction in the Pirates' first 100 years?
	The Pirates were not alone in projecting Clemente's brilliance.  In
fact, though, everyone in baseball knew the talent-rich Brooklyn Dodgers were
trying to hide Clemente on their Triple-A roster.  Clemente was signed by
Brooklyn in 1953 for a $10,000 bonus.  A starting outfield of Jackie Robinson,
Duke Snider and Carl Furillo, plus an unwritten racial quota, kept Clemente
in Montreal.  Any team that signed a player for more than $4,000 was obligated
to either keep the player in the major league or risk losing him in the minor
league draft.
	The alternative was for the Dodgers to try and hide Clemente.  His 
talent made that impossible, despite the Dodgers' laughable efforts.  He was
once lifted for a pinch hitter with the bases loaded in the first inning.  He
hit two triples in one game and then found himself benched the following night.
	Clemente, just 18 and struggling with a dual language barrier in 
Quebec, was baffled and the Dodgers chose not to explain the situation to him.
Clemente finally approached Al Campanis, the Dodger executive who signed him.
	"I want to go home," Clemente said.  "I know I can play better than
these guys but I'm not being used."
	"Do you trust me?" Campanis said.  Clemente said yes.  "Then believe
me, everything will be all right."
	The Dodgers knew they only had a minimal chance of making the charade
work.  Other teams had been aware of Clemente as an amateur in Puerto Rico.
Besides that, everyone was smart enough to keep an eye on the always-productive
Dodger farm system.
	"I couldn't take my eyes off him," said Clyde Sukeforth, the Pirate
scout assigned to observe Montreal.  With that statement, Sukeforth echoed
the words Campanis uttered at a tryout camp in Puerto Rico a year earlier.
	Sukeforth had dinner with Montreal manager Max Macon and made no 
secret of his mission.
	"You might as well play him."  Sukeforth said.  "He's better than 
anyone we have now.  We are going to finish last and we are going to draft
him number one."
	Even though Clemente sat out Montreal's final 25 games, the Pirates
chose him at the major league meeting in New York.  It wasn't a difficult
decision.
	In Pittsburgh the outfield competition was less formidable and Clemente
quickly worked his way into the starting lineup.  He got his first major league
hit, and infield single against Brooklyn's Johnny Podres.  His last regular
season hit was his 3,000th, a double to the gap in left-center against Jon
Matlack of the New York Mets on September 30, 1972.  In between, Clemente had
a Hall of Fame career memorable for both substance and style.
	There was intensity in his eyes as he concentrated on a pitch.  There
was the unorthodox grace of the corkscrew batting stance as he uncoiled and
lashed line drives.  There was the calculated nonchalance basket catch and
the underhanded flip of the ball back to the infield when no runners were on
base.
	There was the chiseled physique, 5-11, 180 pounds.  Despite the well-
chronicled aches and pains, it was perhaps the perfect baseball player's body,
driven by an uncommon inner fury.  There was a .317 career batting average,
four batting titles, 14 All-Star games, the 1966 MVP award and a prominent 
place in virtually every Pirate offensive category.
	There was also attributes not reliably measured by statistics-like the
power of Clemente's throwing arm.  Records of outfield assists don't reflect
how his reputation kept a runner from even daring an extra base.  But ask 
someone who was there the time Clemente threw out St. Louis runners at the
plate in consecutive innings or the times he'd throw behind a runner making 
a wide turn at first base.
	He was the prototype complete player, something the nation came to know
when he made the 1971 World Series his personal showcase.  He used those seven
games to catch up on whatever recognition eluded him for the first 17 years
of his career.  Fiercely proud of his heritage, he used the forum his Series
fame brought him to improve the image of Latin American players.
	Clemente's social conscience put him aboard a small plane overloaded
with relief supplies for earthquake-ravaged Nicaragua on New Year's Eve 1972.
The plane went down in the Atlantic Ocean shortly after takeoff.  Pittsburgh
and Puerto Rico began a new year mourning a hero.
	The Hall of Fame voting was conducted with unprecedented swiftness
and the cruel reality of his absence was confronted by his family, teammates
and fans.  Baseball has developed stars since but few, if any, have come close
to merging excellence with elegance as Clemente did.
	In an interview conducted shortly after the 1972 season ended, 
Clemente said, "I am convinced that God wanted me to be a baseball player.  I
was born to play baseball."
	Anyone who ever saw Roberto Clemente in action would surely agree.
92.450ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Wed Jul 29 1992 19:324
    Pirates lead Cubs 1-0 in the 2nd on a Bonds HR.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.451The best I've ever seenPEAKS::WOESTEHOFFWed Jul 29 1992 20:0322
  Until 1971 when he was near the end of his career, Clemente never got the 
  publicity that Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays got. Maybe it was because he 
  played in a smaller city or maybe it was because he could barely speak 
  English. But I always thought he was the best baseball player during those 
  years.

  That's a really incredible story in the last reply about Montreal having 
  him sit out the final 25 games to try to hide him. He almost gave up and
  went back to PR. It's a good thing the Pirate scouts were doing their 
  job and not listening to the papers.

  I was just thinking about making comparisons between Bonds and Clemente.
  Bonds is a better power/HR hitter. Even though Bonds can throw well, 
  Clemente had the best outfield arm the game has ever seen. Both have/had 
  speed in the outfield and on the basepads and are excellent at getting RBIs. 
  Both were capably of making the big catch. Clemente was a better hitter for 
  average. Both have/had incredible baseball talent. Bonds will make a lot 
  more money and get a lot more publicity, but for some reason I doubt that 
  people will be talking about him as a God-like baseball player 20 years 
  after his death as they do with the Great One.

		Keith
92.452ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Wed Jul 29 1992 20:137
    re: .451
    
    Clemente was a great ballplayer. But part of the reason people talk
    about him now as they do is because of the tragic way he died.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.453NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Jul 29 1992 20:2518
    
    If what we're seeing right now is the real Barry Bonds and he can
    continue to do for another ten years what he's done the past four, I'd
    have to rate him a better all-around hitter than Clemente, because of
    his power.  The difference between a .290 hitter and a .320 hitter is
    not that much, not if you can hit 30 home runs.  But I agree, Clemente 
    was quite probably the best defensive outfielder the game has ever seen.
    
    When you start talking about the greatest of all time and such, as 
    great as he was it's tough to place Clemente above of two of his own 
    NL peers, Henry Aaron and Willie Mays.  As an outfielder, it's not 
    humanly possible to make up for 650, 750 home runs with your glove.
    Those kind of numbers are ones that no currently active player can even
    dream of...
    
    glenn
    
                                         
92.454SHALOT::HUNTHeartbreak Motor Oil and Bombay GinWed Jul 29 1992 20:3016
92.455The complete ball playerPEAKS::WOESTEHOFFWed Jul 29 1992 21:1828
92.456GRANPA::DFAUSTWith every wish,there comes a curseThu Jul 30 1992 14:0614
    re: Bob Hunt
    
    I must disagree that the HoF did the correct hing by waiving the 5 yr
    rule. It would have done nothing to diminish what Clemente did to make
    him wait the 5 yrs. If he had been in a position where he had a fatal
    illness and would not have lived to see his induction, that would have
    been different. Clemente was already dead. I think you might see
    something similar to this if Magic Johnson takes a bad turn (heaven
    forbid!) and might not make it until he's eligible for the Basketball
    HoF. Otherwise, I don't see the reason to waive the waiting
    requirement.
    
    Dennis
    
92.457SHALOT::HUNTHeartbreak Motor Oil and Bombay GinThu Jul 30 1992 14:598
92.458SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Thu Jul 30 1992 15:1850
    
    
    	I really don't think people remember Clemente (at least I don't)
    becaue of the way he died.  In a way though, through death, he became
    bigger than life.
    
    	Until '71, Clemente was really unnoticed to a degree.  If asked
    by the media or the average fan across the nation who the best was,
    the Mantle's, Aaron's, May's and so forth were usually mentioned.
    Clemente seemed to be an afterthought and part of that might have
    been due to his race.  Clemente was really the first great star from
    outside the USA and since the NL and AL were just getting used to the
    idea of blacks being equal, they might of not felt to warm and fuzzy
    about a non-resident being tabbed as the greatest baseball player at
    that time.
    
    	Sad though that the world really didn't know what Clemente was all
    about until '71 when they found out not only could he play, put he had
    a genuine concern for the people of Puerto Rico.  People in Pittsburgh
    always knew of the work Clemente did in the off season, so even though
    it was a surpirse to us that he died so suddenly, it seems fitting 
    that he died helping others less fortunate.
    
    	Although I can't speak for Mantle and Yaz, and can only say that
    I saw Mays and Aaron play a few times compared to Clemente, I'd have
    to say that he was as complete a ballplayer as Mays was.  Aaron,
    although a great hitter and one for power, was nowhere near the
    defensive outfielder Clemente was.  Aaron was good in the OF, but
    Clemente was the best rightfielder I have ever seen, and I've never
    seen anyone that could throw like he could and get it there on line!
    
    	Funny thing is when we all compare greats to great, to much
    emphasis is placed on the offensive part of the game.  Those that
    appreciate and think Bill Russell was the best do so because he was
    the consumate team player and because of his defensive skills.  I 
    could make the same comparison with Clemente.  He played hurt at times
    and always gave 100%.  I also doesn't hurt to have 12 Gold gloves along 
    with an MVP, four batting titles, not to mention a few records leading 
    the league in assists and two World Championships.
    
    	Geez, I'll always love Clemente and cherish the thoughts and 
    memories I have of him.  Hopefully, I'll be able to communicate some
    of those to my son who can only watch the man on video.
    
    	We all have our heros and favorites.. I guess no one in my mind
    will ever take the place Clemente has in my heart.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    
92.459The legend lives on.PEAKS::WOESTEHOFFThu Jul 30 1992 16:2441
  Regarding the comparison between Bonds and Clemente:

	I don't think anyone will disagree that Bonds has the talent to
	have a career comparable to a Roberto Clemente or a Willie Mays
	or a Hank Aaron. However, with Bonds, the jury is still out. He's 
	relatively young and still has a long career ahead of him. A lot of 
	things can and will happen in the coming years. Someone pointed out
	that Bonds is a better HR hitter and that stat is very important. 
	But I think that the RBI stat is even better to look at when comparing 
	players. If you look at Clemente's RBI stats, on average, they may 
	not be as high as Bonds but they were very high and close to what 
	Bonds has been doing. But then there's the intangibles. Clemente
	was a team leader even though his English was horrible. So far, I've
	seen no team leadership with Bonds. The only thing he's been able
	to inspire, so far, has been his ego. Also, when invited to the Big
	Dance, Clemente put on one of the greatest all around 
	performances(1971) ever seen in the history of the World Series.
	So far, Bonds hasn't done this. In fact, when invited to the 2nd biggest
	dance, he has twice played poorly. One final important fact, the 
	people of Pittsburgh loved Clemente. Bonds, well, that's another story.

	Clemente just did everything so well and then he would do things
	that you just couldn't believe were possible. In my mind, I can still
	see him digging a ball out of the dirt on the warning track in the
	right field corner, spinning around in a circle and throwing an on the
	fly strike to nail a runner at third. And he would do it all in one
	motion. 

>    	We all have our heros and favorites.. I guess no one in my mind
>       will ever take the place Clemente has in my heart.
    
	Yesterday, after making my last few entries I was thinking exactly
	the same thing. Pittsburgh has been blessed with some great athletes
	over the years with people like Bradshaw, Harris, Blount, Lambert,
	Ham, Stargell, Tony Dorsett and now Mario Lemieux. I think every
	sports fan has one player who has inspired him more than any other
	player he has ever seen and the player becomes almost larger than
	life. For me, that player has always been Roberto Clemente and the
	others are a distance 2nd.

		Keith
92.460SHALOT::MEDVIDthe profits of addictive extinctionThu Jul 30 1992 17:157
>        Pittsburgh has been blessed with some great athletes
>	over the years with people like Bradshaw, Harris, Blount, Lambert,
>	Ham, Stargell, Tony Dorsett and now Mario Lemieux. 
    
    ...Bruno Samartino
    
    
92.461Clemente was Gawd!!!! in right fieldCELTIK::JACOBSun-ripened for Mildness!Thu Jul 30 1992 19:4914
    One of my memories of Clemente is the way he legged out triples.
    My Grandfather had box seat tickets behind the Bucs dugout at Forbes
    Field and I got to go to many a game with him(and ate and ate and ate).
    To see Clemente turn a double into a triple, and the way he ran, which
    looked a little unorthodox, is something blasted into my memories.
    His legs would be flailing in every direction, and at times I wondered
    how someone could run as fast as he did with the ways his legs went.
    
    Also, to watch him take his "big cut", where his momentum would turn
    him completely around, was great too.  Saw him crank a homer over the
    457 ft. mark one fine day, also.
                                             
    JaKe
    
92.462CELTIK::JACOBSun-ripened for Mildness!Thu Jul 30 1992 20:0112
    Re the Bucs, Stan "He did it Agin" Belinda gave up a 2 run homer to
    Sammy Sosa yesterday in some extra inning, I fergit which, to drop
    another Bucco game.
    
    Fortunately, The Expos(ed) lost too, so the Bucs and Expos(ed) are
    steel tied for first place in the East.
    
    The Bucs now come home after a disastrous road trip which saw them
    leave with a five game lead, and come home tied for first.
    
    JaKe
    
92.463Honest!SCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesFri Jul 31 1992 11:543
       HEy Jake, I saw SMokey Burgess hit a triple at Forbes one night.
    Prob'ly the only one a his carreer!
                                           Denny
92.464CELTIK::JACOBSun-ripened for Mildness!Fri Jul 31 1992 19:3014
    
    >>   HEy Jake, I saw SMokey Burgess hit a triple at Forbes one night.
    >>Prob'ly the only one a his carreer!
    >>                                       Denny
    
    What happened, everybody in the outfield fall down???  (8^)*
    
    Bucs beat the Cards lasted night, 4-0, behind Danny Jackson and Bob
    Patterson combining for the shutout.
    
    Montreal also won so the Bucs and Expos(ed) are still tied for first.
    
    JaKe
    
92.465Smokey still an icon of his times...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Aug 03 1992 13:2416
    
    >>   HEy Jake, I saw SMokey Burgess hit a triple at Forbes one night.
    >>Prob'ly the only one a his carreer!
    >>                                       Denny
    >
    > What happened, everybody in the outfield fall down???  (8^)*
    
    Lotta space out in the outfield at Forbes Field, which was the triples 
    park of all of baseball (the Pirates still hold most individual and
    team triples records).  Even Smokey had 33 in his career, which in a
    normal park wouldn't be bad for even an average runner.  Obviously
    these triples would have been inside-the-park home runs for anyone
    else...
    
    glenn
    
92.466CELTIK::JACOBSun-ripened for Mildness!Mon Aug 03 1992 19:4219
    Bucs pulled out the brooms this weekend and swept a four game series
    from the Cards, including yesterday's beauty where the Cards got a gift
    run in the eigh.  In the bottom of the ninth, With one out, Andy Van
    Slyke singled, then stole second.  With 2 out Jeff King singled up the 
    middle, scoring Van SLyke.  King went to second on the throw home, which got
    away slightly from Pagnozzi.  Don Slaught then singled into right
    center, and King scored slightly ahead of the throw, and the Bucs had
    plucked Victory from the Jaws of defeat.  The losing pitcher was none
    other than Lee Smith, whom is having his problems this year, 'specially
    with people stealing bases on him.  The Bucs are 8-2 .vs. Smith in his
    career.
    
    Bucs are now up by 2 games and have tonight off with the Mucking
    Fets(minus one Blobby Bon(haid)illa, who dislocated his head, er broke
    a rib, yeah, that's the ticket, yesterday trying to immitate Andy Van
    Slyke.
    
    JaKe
    
92.467PFSVAX::JACOBWed Aug 05 1992 04:117
    Bucs beat the Mucking Fets 2nite in 12 innings.
    
    Cubbies overcame an early 5-0 deficit to beat the Expos(ed), so the
    Bucs lead is now 2-1/2 games.
    
    JaKe
    
92.468Bucs win 6th in a rowCELTIK::JACOBSun-ripened for Mildness!Thu Aug 06 1992 02:3318
    Bucs pulled out the broom for the Mucking Fets, in a 2 game series.
    
    The Bucs won tonight, 6-2.  Rookie knuckleballer, Tim Wakefield, in
    just his second major league start, got the win and is now 2-0, having
    beaten St. Louis in his major league debut last week.
    
    Bucs scored 3 in the first(1 on a double steal, Jeff King stealing
    second, while Lloyd McClendon(sp?) went home.  Other 2, Bell double,
    Van SLyke single, bell scores, McClendon singles, Bonds Sac fly, double
    steal.
	    
    Mets are now 7-1/2 back.
    
    Montreal is leading the Cubs in the eights, 5-2, so if they win, the
    Bucs will still hold a 2-1/2 game lead over the Expos(ed).
    
    JaKe
    
92.469CELTIK::JACOBSun-ripened for Mildness!Thu Aug 06 1992 02:365
    FWIW, The Bucs ERA for the six game home stand they just completed, and
    went 6-0 during, was 0.95
    
    JaKe
    
92.470Saw him when he was just a babySHALOT::MEDVIDthere is really no-one leftThu Aug 06 1992 12:218
    I saw Tim Wakefield pitch for the Carolina Mudcats when they played the
    Charlotte Knights last year.  He got rocked around the fifth inning
    then, but I was hoping he would make it.  
    
    Glad to see his knuckler took him to a win in the bigs...especially
    against the hated Mets.
    
    	--dan'l
92.471CAMONE::WAYThere are monkey boys in the facilityThu Aug 06 1992 12:2412
>
>    I saw Tim Wakefield pitch for the Carolina Mudcats when they played the
>    Charlotte Knights last year.  He got rocked around the fifth inning
>    then, but I was hoping he would make it.  
    
That to me is what makes watching minor league ball so much fun.

I've seen guys like John Marzano, Steve Lyons, Ellis Burkes, Roger Clemens,
and Sam Horn all in AA ball.  It was fun....


'saw
92.472Bucs flying highPFSVAX::JACOBFri Aug 07 1992 20:3610
    Dem Bucs beat the Cards lasted night(er, actually this morning), 3-2 in
    13 innings.
    
    Montreal also won so the Bucs lead is still 2-1/2 games.
    
    Ths Bucs have now won 7 in a row.  Their longest streak this year was 9
    games.
    
    JaKe
    
92.473PFSVAX::JACOBMETS sip IN '92Mon Aug 10 1992 19:5010
    Bucs pulled out the Broom this weekend, and swept the Cards about down
    the drain.
    
    The Bucs have won 10 straight, their longest winning streak in 14
    years.
    
    Bring on the Mucking Fets!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.474FDCV07::KINGTue Aug 11 1992 13:293
    Make that 11 in a row and the Mets lost their 7th in a row...
    
    REK
92.475ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Tue Aug 11 1992 15:385
    Mets lost in 16 innings 4-2. It was a really good game. Good defense,
    great pitching. Kept me up until 12:45AM and then there was work to do.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.476GO BUCS!!!!!!!!!!!PFSVAX::JACOBMETS sip IN '92Tue Aug 11 1992 20:0315
    Sure was a good game, I left Brockway, Pa.(111 miles northeast of Pgh,
    all backroads) at about 10:30 p.m. and got to listen to the 8th inning
    to the end of the game.  GREAT that the Bucs beat the Mucking Fets,
    AGAIN, this year.  
    
    The Bucs lead is still 3-1/2 as the Expos(ed) crushed the Cubbies
    yesterday, 11-0.
    
    Rookie knuckleballer Tim Wakefield pitched another very good game,
    giving up only 3 hits in 8 innings, but got a no decision.
    
    Bucs and Mucking Fets agin tonite.
    
    JaKe
    
92.477CELTIK::JACOBSun-ripened for Mildness!Wed Aug 12 1992 02:249
    Those Mucking Fets beat the Bucs tonite, 2-0 to stop the Bucs win
    streak at 11 games  Good performance by rookie pitcher from NY (can't
    remember name) who got his 1st major league win.
    
    The Expos(ed) beat the Cubbies in 17 innings today, 3-2, so the Bucs
    lead falls to 2-1/2 games.
    
    JaKe
    
92.478always nice to beat the Fittsburgh PucksACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Wed Aug 12 1992 05:3212
    Of course a pitcher making his first start in the majors got the win.
    Guy pitched 8 innings of shutout ball and the fans booed when they
    pinch hit for him. Mets scored 2 unearned runs. 2 outs in the 3rd an
    error by King followed by 3 hits and that was it. Drabek pitched a
    complete game, in this case 8 innings, but got the loss.
    
    Guess its only fair a rookie won the gme. Mets have made a habit over
    the last few years of making rookie pitchers look like Cy Young (see
    Tomlin in 1991 among others).
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.479CAMONE::WAYThere are monkey boys in the facilityWed Aug 12 1992 12:297
Kid was only 22 years old, I heard......


Nice way to start a career!


'Saw
92.480CUPMK::DEVLINJe voudrais boire quelque chose.Wed Aug 12 1992 16:494
Any of you Pencilvanians know anything about Harrisburg?  Is it near anything
else?  Decent town?  ANything to do?  I may be down there nexted week...

JD
92.481SCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesWed Aug 12 1992 16:533
      I think Hershey Park's not too far from there. And a course 3-mile
    Island.
                                   Denny
92.482PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollWed Aug 12 1992 16:551
    Good eats.  You'll be in Pennsylvania Dutch country.
92.483LancasterSCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesWed Aug 12 1992 16:572
       ...Dutch country has lots a outlet stores if you're so inclined.
                                    Denny
92.484MCIS2::DHAMELJack Clark: Will DH for foodWed Aug 12 1992 17:075
    
    Lotta whitetails to blow away down there too.
    
    Dickstah
    
92.485CTHQ::LEARYChainsaw: Possible ND convert?Wed Aug 12 1992 17:114
    I believe Gettysburg is within an hour's ride. Could be mistook, tho.
    
    MikeL
    
92.486SCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesWed Aug 12 1992 17:174
    ...and while you're within a coupla hundred miles you might as well go
    to Camden Yahds too. You don't have to worry though, they already had a
    team when they built the stadium!
                                 Denny
92.487TORREY::MAY_BRInside IntelWed Aug 12 1992 17:541
    Food is overrated.  All those family style places don't serve beer!
92.488SCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesWed Aug 12 1992 18:162
       I think that's 'Amish effects' Brews.
                                Denny
92.489And Three Mile Island is only a short drive down riverSHALOT::MEDVIDSeasick, yet still dockedWed Aug 12 1992 19:227
92.490PFSVAX::JACOBMETS sip IN '92Wed Aug 12 1992 19:384
    Bucs winning in 7th inning, 5-3 but steel 2 innings left to go.
    
    JaKe
    
92.491GRANPA::DFAUSTWith every wish,there comes a curseWed Aug 12 1992 19:509
    If you get a chance while your in Harrisburg, you can check out some
    Eastern League baseball at RiverSide Park in Harrisburg. The ballpark
    is on an island in the middle of the Sussquehanna (sp) River and is a
    neat place to see a game. The Reading Phillies play about 1 1/2 hours
    away from Harrisburg. The Phillies will be home fore some of next week.
    And if you do go to Camden Yards, take your wallet. All of those games
    are sold out and the scalpers want big bucks.
    
    Dennis
92.492(8^)*PFSVAX::JACOBThirty-Seven 2dayWed Aug 12 1992 19:588
    re-.1
    
    As an added bonus, after attending one of those games on that island,
    you won't use any electricity to light your home for a week or so cause
    you'll be glowing from 3 Mile Island being so near.
    
    JaKe
    
92.493Happy Birfday Jakester!GENRAL::WADEfill yer hands you &lt;CENSORED&gt;!!Wed Aug 12 1992 19:591
    
92.494ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Wed Aug 12 1992 20:066
    Jake it was 6-3 after 6.5 any more updates? 
    
    Happy BD, even if you are a Pirate/Penguin fan.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.495CUPMK::DEVLINJe voudrais boire quelque chose.Wed Aug 12 1992 20:088
Thanks for the info.  SHould be down there nexted M-W, barring something
unforseen in the nexted day or two.

Doubt I'll have much time to take in a game or travel much, I haven't been
down that way in probably 15-20 years - whenever the last time I went
to Gettysburg was.

JD
92.496PFSVAX::JACOBThirty-Seven 2dayWed Aug 12 1992 21:1711
    Bucs beat the Mucking Fets in 10 innings, 7-6.
    
    Jay Bell knocked Lloyd McClendon(sp?) in with the winning run by
    hitting a triple in the top of the 10th.  Stan Belinda, as usual, made
    things hairy by walking one, and going to a 3-2 count on another before
    Leyland yanked him in the bottom of the 10th.  Fets ended up loading
    the bases with 2 out before Bob Patterson got Eddie Murray to fly out
    to Andy Van SLyke to end the game.
    
    JaKe
    
92.497PFSVAX::JACOBThirty-Seven 2dayWed Aug 12 1992 21:2014
    Thanks for the BD wishes gents.
    
    37 years ago today my mom went thru tons of pain, and when I popped
    out, the first thing she could say was,
    
    WHAT THE HELL IS THAT??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    37 years later, almost every time she sees me she wonders the same
    thing.
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    
92.498CTHQ::MCCULLOUGHLindsey AND Melanie's dadWed Aug 12 1992 21:223
37 - what an old fart!

=Bob= (a mere child of 35 nexted week)
92.499CAMONE::WAYThere are monkey boys in the facilityThu Aug 13 1992 12:5121
I'll be 34 nexted month, but I learned the secret of a long, young life
years ago.

When I was a little boy, just into baseball, I saw a film clip of the
homer that Ted Williams hit in the All-Star game.  I saw Ted clap his
hands as he rounded first base, and for some reason that impressed me.

Over the years, that vision has stayed with me, and some years ago
I began to realize that you are only old if you feel old, and that your
attitude has a great deal to do with the way you look.


I mean, look at lEe.  He's older than Methusalah, but he doesn't look
a day over 70.....8^)



Happy B-day Jakester!!!!


'Saw
92.500MCIS2::DHAMELJack Clark: Will DH for foodThu Aug 13 1992 13:298
    
    I know what you mean, 'Saw.  Everytime I score too I run around the
    bedroom clapping and waving.  That's when my wife starts looking
    through the yellow pages for either lawyers or mental health clinics,
    or both.
    
    Dickstah
    
92.501LAGUNA::MAY_BRInside IntelThu Aug 13 1992 15:327
    
    Dickstah,
    
    How do you know your wife is looking through the yellow pages? 
    Whenever you score in the bedroom, she's over at the neighbors house. 
    
    Brews
92.502PFSVAX::JACOBGetting older by the minuteThu Aug 13 1992 19:4311
    'Saw  Thanks
    
    Bucs lead stayed at 2-1/2 lasted night as the Expos(ed) beat the dying
    Cubbies agin.
    
    Bucs are off tonite and then Atlanta comes into Pittsburgh tomorrow for
    a 4 game series.  Advance ticket sales are throught the roof, according
    to reports.
    
    JaKe
    
92.503ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Thu Aug 13 1992 19:458
    re: .502
    
    You mean people in Fittsburgh are actually buying tickets to see the
    Pucks?? Amazing. If the Pirates win the division they may even sell out
    the stadium for the playoffs.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.504Now if T was here.......CTHQ::LEARYChainsaw: Possible ND convert?Thu Aug 13 1992 19:481
    
92.505SOLANA::MAY_BRInside IntelThu Aug 13 1992 20:044
    
    Careful, TCM, I got the goods on you.
    
    Brews
92.506PFSVAX::JACOBGetting older by the minuteTue Aug 18 1992 03:296
    Bucs lose to the Braves in 10 innings, 6-5(or was it 5-4?).
    
    Lead is now 2 games as Montreal didn't play tonight.
    
    JaKe
    
92.507Mr October does it again. NOT! MKFSA::LONGCarpe diem.Tue Aug 18 1992 12:379
	I saw the last four innings of last nights game.  By far the most 
pathetic attempt at an at-bat was Bonds' weak sister attempt that ended 
the game. This guy continues to cough up the giant plegm ball anytime he 
gets into a clutch situation.  

        He must have thought that it was October and they were in the playoffs!

Bill
92.508NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Aug 18 1992 13:1816
    
    > I saw the last four innings of last nights game.  By far the most 
    > pathetic attempt at an at-bat was Bonds' weak sister attempt that ended 
    > the game. This guy continues to cough up the giant plegm ball anytime he 
    > gets into a clutch situation.  
    
    Please.  What about the few ninth- and extra-inning game-winning home 
    runs the guy has hit the past couple of years?  What about the game 
    earlier this season, where with the Bucs three runs down in the ninth 
    inning, Bonds delivered with a two-out bases-clearing triple to tie the
    game?  The TBS announcers had just finished saying that Bonds'
    production late in close games had been excellent this year when he
    struck out.  Sometimes you're going to lose...
    
    glenn
    
92.509Whiff, whiff, whiffSHALOT::HUNTHeartbreak Motor Oil and Bombay GinTue Aug 18 1992 13:256
 That's true, Glenn, but Alejandro Pena just completely overmatched poor
 Barry on that final at-bat lasted night.   I actually felt a little sorry
 for the young stud.  Pena was throwing aspirin tablets past him and Bonds
 looked tres feeble.
 
 Bob Hunt
92.510I'm just being realistic about expectations...NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Aug 18 1992 14:218
    
    Absolutely.  That's 19 out of 20 scoreless appearances for Pena.  The
    guy's got it back together and at least part of the Braves' bullpen
    problems appear to be solved.  He's been making a lot of hitters look
    foolish lately...
    
    glenn
     
92.511got bored with the Convention and watched b'ballWKRP::LEETCHUS Messaging Practice DTN 432-7628Tue Aug 18 1992 14:4212
I liked the look on Bonds' face after Pena threw some *serious* heat past him
for strike 1 (Bonds started his swing about when the ball was in the catcher's
mitt).

You could see him thinking "Hey waitaminute, I faced this guy earlier in the
year and he didn't have *that* kind of smoke before!".

He did look kinda pathetic when he struck out, tried to do the exasperated
grab-the-bat-by-the-barrel, and ended up fumbling it back to the backstop.

Bruce (a Reds fan who is hoping that *somebody* will start beating the Braves 
but is losing hope day-by-day)
92.512That's one poor AB out of many successful onesSHALOT::MEDVIDSeasick, yet still dockedTue Aug 18 1992 15:039
    I'm with Glenn on Bonds.  As much as I hate the guy as the spoiled brat
    he is, there are few players I would rather have up in a clutch
    situation between the months of April and September.  October is a
    different story for Mr. Whiney-pants.
    
    Still won't shed many tears when his sour personality leaves the
    Pirates to be the bane of some other team, though.
    
    	--dan'l
92.513The leaves must be changing already ; ^ )MKFSA::LONGCarpe diem.Tue Aug 18 1992 15:4920
	re: .508

	Glenn,

	As a translant up here in New Hanpshire, I'll grant you that I don't
	get to see "Mr October-NOT" very often, much less read a play by play
	account of all the Bucco's games.  The only time they seem to get a
	big writeup in the local paper is when Mike Lavalliere, a Manchester,
	NH, native, has an outstanding game.  
	
	One thing that, in my opinion, seems to be consistant is Mr O.N.'s 
	gross inconsistancy under pressure.  I'm sure he has probably had a few 
	instances that go against this belief, but they appear to be more 
	the exception than the norm.

	Anyway, what I was getting at in my original reply was that Mr O.N.
	looked a whole lot like he did last October against the same team --
	totally without a clue.

	Bill
92.514PFSVAX::JACOBGetting older by the minuteTue Aug 18 1992 20:3622
92.515SHALOT::HUNTSing Do Wah DiddyTue Aug 18 1992 20:4219
92.516NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Aug 18 1992 20:438
    Man, I guess you guys are going to be real disappointed when Barry
    comes through big in the postseason (you heard it here first!).  Which
    are you going to be rooting for, Barry Bonds to fall on his face or 
    the Pirates to win it all?  Is it a close call?
    
    glenn
    
92.517PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollTue Aug 18 1992 20:513
    Given that even a good hitter fails to get the job done around 70% of
    the time, I find it interesting how fans can get on a hitter's case for
    1 failed at bat.
92.518ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Tue Aug 18 1992 22:046
    re: .517
    
    Fans of the Red Sox have been doing that for years.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.519Bucs winPFSVAX::JACOBGetting older by the minuteWed Aug 19 1992 02:507
    Bucs beat the Padres(for the first time this season in 7 meetings),
    5-1.  Mr. October(NOT) drove in a couple of runs.
    
    The Expos(ed) lost tonite to the Braves, so the Bucs lead is now 3
    games.
    
    JaKe
92.520PFSVAX::JACOBBuffin' the Solar PanelThu Aug 20 1992 19:298
    Bucs won lasted night, Bob Walk pitched 7 good innings.
    
    Expos(ed) lost, so Bucs lead is up to 4 games.
    
    The Bucs are playing right now against San Diego(I think).
    
    JaKe
    
92.521PFSVAX::JACOBOn the FenceFri Aug 21 1992 02:356
    Bucs beat the Padres? today, 7-1 in an afternoon game.
    Don't know what the Expos(ed) did, but the Bucs lead will be at least 4
    games.
    
    JaKe
    
92.522PFSVAX::JACOBBush=Truly a Legend in his own mindTue Aug 25 1992 12:0611
    Bucs lost to the Dodgers lasted night, 5-4.
    
    No game details.  Went to bed early 'cause I'm on dayshift this week.
    
    Did the Expos(ed) play lasted night????If yes, did they win or lose.
    
    I know the Expos(ed) start a series with the Braves tonite, but I'm not
    sure whether they had lasted night off or not.
    
    JaKe
    
92.523ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Tue Aug 25 1992 14:194
    Expos had the night off.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.524PFSVAX::JACOBBreathing plaster dust for weeksTue Aug 25 1992 15:464
    Thanks
    
    JaKe
    
92.525PFSVAX::JACOBWoody Allen:'Honey, I Screwed the Kids'Wed Aug 26 1992 12:018
    Bucs beat the Dodgers lasted night, 10-3.
    
    Andy Van Slyke lacked only a triple from hitting for the cycle.
    
    Expos(ed) won also.
    
    JaKe
    
92.526PFSVAX::JACOBWoody Allen:'Honey, I Screwed the Kids'Wed Aug 26 1992 12:0312
    --dan'l, you'll love this.
    
    Barry "Wah Wah" Bonds has stated that he MAY take less money and stay
    with the Pirates after this season is over.  He said that he likes
    Pittsburgh and plying for Jim Leyland and is willing to take a reduced
    offer to stay here.
    
    My bet is that he won't be here, cause the Bucs Management won't fork
    over enuf just to keep him here.
    
    JaKe
    
92.527SHALOT::MEDVIDI will feel so glad to goWed Aug 26 1992 15:005
    I'd just as soon see the Pirates let Bonds go on his merry arrogant way
    and concentrate on signing Drabek and perhaps going after Kirby
    Puckett.
    
    	--dan'l
92.528Nice try Mr October(NOT) MKFSA::LONGCarpe diem.Wed Aug 26 1992 16:205
	I wholeheartedly agree with dan'l.  Let Mr October(NOT) dash the 
	hopes of some other contender.

	Bill
92.529AXIS::ROBICHAUDMachoRoomsUpstairsWed Aug 26 1992 16:276
    	Interesting statistic on ESPN's SportsCenter the other night
    regarding the Pirates offensive production.  Bonds and Van Slyke
    have almost as many homeruns as the rest of the team combined. 
    The Pirates will not even make it to October if Bonds leaves.
    
    				/Don
92.530PEAKS::WOESTEHOFFWed Aug 26 1992 16:4412
>    	Interesting statistic on ESPN's SportsCenter the other night
>    regarding the Pirates offensive production.  Bonds and Van Slyke
>    have almost as many homeruns as the rest of the team combined. 
>    The Pirates will not even make it to October if Bonds leaves.
    
  I agree. Without Bonds and Van Slyke, the Pirates batting average would be 
  something like .023. If there's a chance to sign Bonds, they should go
  after him. I'm no fan of Bonds, but a man with his talent doesn't end
  up in Pittsburgh that often. And, there's always the chance that he may grow
  up in the few years.

	Keith
92.531stats can be deceivingMKFSA::LONGCarpe diem.Wed Aug 26 1992 16:5018
	
	/Don,

	I saw that same show and I'll have to admit I was suprized by the
	statistic.  I suspect that Bond's production was more often than
	not inconsiquential to the outcome of a game.  What I mean is,
	from the limited number of games that I've been able to see/read
	about, VanSlyke, among others, have more consistantly made the big 
	offensive play to either win the game or at least turn it around.  
	Whereas Bonds will hit a solo homer, or drive in a RBI, to give 
	the Bucs a run in a game that is already out of reach, one way 
	or the other.

	I will grant you that this is an opinion of someone who has never
	really liked Bonds, but it seems to be shared by several more local
	fans in Pittsburgh.

	Bill
92.532Bucs Win againPFSVAX::JACOBBald Head=Solar Panel 4 a Sex MachineThu Aug 27 1992 12:378
    The Bucs won lasted night, 2-0, over the Dodgers as the rookie
    knuckleballer, Tim Wakefield won again.  He's now either 4-1 or 5-1.  
    Can't remember.
    
    Don't know what the Expos(ed) did.
    
    JaKe
    
92.533battle of the butterfliesJARETH::YANKOWSKASPaul YankowskasThu Aug 27 1992 12:4810
    re .532:
    
    Expos beat the Braves, can't remember the score.
    
    It's not that often one sees a knuckleball pitcher, but last night's
    Bucs-Dodgers game had two knuckleballers dueling (Wakefield and
    Candiotti for the Dodgers).
    
    
    py
92.534PFSVAX::JACOBBald Head=Solar Panel 4 a Sex MachineThu Aug 27 1992 16:3412
    
    >>It's not that often one sees a knuckleball pitcher, but last night's
    >>Bucs-Dodgers game had two knuckleballers dueling (Wakefield and
    >>Candiotti for the Dodgers).
    
    Heard on the news at lunchtime that lasted night's squaring off of the
    knuckleballers was the first time it's been done in 10 years.
    
    Expos(ed) beat the Braves 5-4, so the Bucs lead is still 2-1/2 games.
    
    JaKe
    
92.535PFSVAX::JACOBBald Head=Solar Panel 4 a Sex MachineSat Aug 29 1992 17:175
    THe Padres walked over the Bucs lasted night, 11-6 or something like
    that.
    
    JaKe
    
92.536Bucs finish their Left Coast trip with winsPFSVAX::JACOBBald Head=Solar Panel 4 a Sex MachineMon Aug 31 1992 11:447
    The Bucs won Saturday and Sunday over the Padres.
    
    No idea what the rest of the NL East did, since it was one of those
    "picnic" type weekends, where me and the fambily was out all weekend.
    
    JaKe
    
92.537NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Sep 01 1992 13:0420
    So, if the Bucs advance to the postseason (and I'd say they're a good
    bet, with about two-thirds of their remaining games at home), are any
    of you Pittsburghers local or remote planning on going to the games to
    head off another MrT-inflamed "embarrassment"?  I'm thinking of going
    for the same deal I've had with my brother (from Ohio) the last two
    years, alas-- if the Pirates make the Fall Classic, I'll drive down
    (by my calculation those games would be on the weekends in the NL city
    this year).
    
    JaKe (Newspaperless One), have the Bucs announced ticket sales yet?
    A phone number?  Are they going to be smart about it for a change and 
    sell individual games for some of the seats?
    
    I'm not counting my chickens or anything (for starters the Braves look
    damn near invincible), but with SPORTS and its beloved members dying a
    slow painful death I thought I'd throw this out now...  ;-(
    
    glenn
      
92.538If I have the free time...and I think I'll have a lot of itSHALOT::MEDVIDthe same deep water as youTue Sep 01 1992 15:079
    Glenn,
    
    if I'm still woefully unemployed in October (or I can convince my new
    employer to a late October start date) I've already told friends up
    home that I'll be there for the playoffs (provided Montreal does its
    usual end-of-the-season fold).  We were joking about going an hour
    before the game and getting tickets at the gate.  Sad but true.
    
    	--dan'l
92.539PFSVAX::JACOBBald Head=Solar Panel 4 a Sex MachineTue Sep 01 1992 19:5518
    Playoff and WS tickets are available thru mail order only right now.
    
    If'n the Bucs make it, they'll be here in PGH. on Oct. 8, 9, & 10, a
    Friday, Sat. and Sun.
    
    Prices are $30 for reserved seats, and $20 for reserved General
    Admission(peanut heaven).
    
    No box seats are available(unless you know a scalper or two).
    
    You cain get an order form by calling 1-800-BUY-BUCS, or if you cain't
    get thru there, call 412-321-BUCS.
    
    Don't know if I'm going to any games yet, but probably will break down
    and go to at least one.
    
    JaKe
    
92.540CUPMK::DEVLINJe voudrais boire quelque chose.Tue Sep 01 1992 20:179
Dan'l -

Hey, you never know.  You may be on your way to Pittsburgh during a time when
I'm in Harrisburg.  Possible get together for a drink could be in the works??

Please note that I have no idea about the driving route from Charlotte to
the 'burgh.

JD
92.541SHALOT::MEDVIDthe same deep water as youWed Sep 02 1992 13:285
    Charlotte to Pittsburgh is a straight shot north, so I don't come close
    to Harrisburg.  Now, if you were willing to drive a few hours east, I'm
    sure JaKe and I could show you a most excellent time in Steel Town.
    
    	--dan'l
92.542!!CTHQ::LEARYChainsaw: Possible ND convert?Wed Sep 02 1992 13:596
    Wow dan'l,
    I didn't know you were taking a geography class from ProfessorT??
    
    8^),
    MikeL
    
92.543From "The GLobe According To Me -- MrT"SHALOT::HUNTLast one out, hit the lightsWed Sep 02 1992 14:044
 Harrisburg - A mildewed naval port o' call smack in the heart of ACC
 country.
 
 Bob Hunt
92.544CUPMK::DEVLINJe voudrais boire quelque chose.Wed Sep 02 1992 14:1311
Bob-

Must be a naval port - they got a navel depot right in town!

Dan'l -

If I have to spend more than a week (i.e. a weekend...) I could
probably make a trip to steel  town.  Although Washington D.C. is
a straight shot west from Harrisburg  ;-)

JD
92.545Musta got water on the brain in the Philly H2O Polo TourneySHALOT::MEDVIDthe same deep water as youWed Sep 02 1992 14:331
    
92.546ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Wed Sep 02 1992 22:347
    JaKe,
    
    I may be in Pittsburgh October 11-13. Probably have bunch of time on
    October 11th, too bad NLCS won't be having a game that day.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.547PFSVAX::JACOBBald Head=Solar Panel 4 a Sex MachineWed Sep 02 1992 23:1010
    
    TCM,
    
    Let me check tonite with the SO and see if she's got anything on the
    calendar.  If not, maybe we'll have to get together.
    
    Where you going to be staying in Pgh.????
    
    JaKe
    
92.548PFSVAX::JACOBBald Head=Solar Panel 4 a Sex MachineThu Sep 03 1992 00:037
    Bucs won lasted night, 5-3 over the Giants.  Expos(ed) also won,
    keeping the Bucs lead at 3 games.
    
    Barry Bonds had a solo HR in the 2nd, his 24th on the year.
    
    JaKe
    
92.549ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Thu Sep 03 1992 02:217
    If I am there it is to visit my brother his wife and my 10 month old
    nephew. Anyway Sunday night, Monday and Tuesday won't work for me, but
    sometime earlier on Sunday might. Heck a couple of brewskis and
    watching the Steelers lose might work for me.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.550PFSVAX::JACOBBald Head=Solar Panel 4 a Sex MachineThu Sep 03 1992 02:418
    
    TCM:
    
    Where abouts in the Pittsburgh area??????
    
    JaKe
    
    
92.551PFSVAX::JACOBBald Head=Solar Panel 4 a Sex MachineThu Sep 03 1992 02:426
    The Bucs beat the Giants again tonite, 3-2 behind rookie knuckleballer
    Tim Wakefield.  They will end the night at least 3 games up depending
    on what the Expos(ed) do.
    
    JaKe
    
92.552ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Thu Sep 03 1992 04:364
    Squirrel Hill
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.553talk about a straight laced townACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Thu Sep 03 1992 16:5031
From uvo.dec.com!rdg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!decwrl!looking!clarinews Thu Sep  3 12:36:02 EDT 1992
Article 17407 of clari.sports.baseball:
Xref: e2big.mko.dec.com clari.sports.baseball:17407 clari.local.pennsylvania:633 clari.news.lifestyle:3309 clari.news.interest.people:7289
Path: e2big.mko.dec.com!uvo.dec.com!rdg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!decwrl!looking!clarinews
>From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.baseball,clari.local.pennsylvania,clari.news.lifestyle,clari.news.interest.people
Subject: She strips while team scores
Keywords: baseball, men's professional, sport trends, lifestyle, people,
	human interest
Message-ID: <bb-stripperU2S312ne@clarinet.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 9:04:10 PDT
Location: pennsylvania
ACategory: sports
Slugword: bb-stripper
Priority: daily
Format: daily
ANPA: Wc: 92; Id: z4072; Sel: xxsbp; Adate: 9-3-12ned; Ver: 1/0
Approved: clarinews@clarinet.com
Codes: ysbpdxx., &sbpdpa., &ncsdpa., &nhpdpa.

	PITTSBURGH (UPI) -- Peanuts, popcorn and ... stripping.
	A bachelor party, complete with stripper, was held in one of the
private boxes at Three Rivers Stadium Wednesday night during the
Pittsburgh-San Francisco game.
	The woman, dressed in a string bikini, removed her clothing except
for the bikini bottom. Stadium security guards ejected her and those at
the bachelor party after receiving complaints from fans at the game.
	Pirates officials called it an ``unfortunate incident.''


    
92.554SCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesThu Sep 03 1992 16:512
       That's what they get for playing in onea those sanitized stadiums!
                                    Denny
92.555Somehow I wouldn't be suprised..... ;^)CSTEAM::FARLEYMegabucks Winner WannabeThu Sep 03 1992 17:008
    I wonder if --dan'l pushed up the clock on his request and it was HIS
    party?
    
    Was the Power Bulge ejected?
    
    deen to wonk,
    Kev
    
92.556PEAKS::WOESTEHOFFThu Sep 03 1992 17:187
>The woman, dressed in a string bikini, removed her clothing except
>for the bikini bottom. Stadium security guards ejected her and those at   
>the bachelor party after receiving complaints from fans at the game.      

  Maybe now, they'll be able to sell all of their tickets for the NLCS.

	Keith_who_will_have_to_tune_in_to_more_Pirate_games
92.557Who needs Diamond Vision when you have Scratch & SnifSHALOT::MEDVIDthe same deep water as youThu Sep 03 1992 17:575
    Wasn't me, Kev.  I was getting my own private show that night here in
    Charlotte.  
    
    	--dan'l
    
92.558pgh bound for the weekendMKFSA::LONGCarpe diem.Thu Sep 03 1992 18:485
    Where are the Bucs playing Sept 18?  I'll be in the Steel City,
    actually in Penn Hills, for a family reunion that weekend.  If they
    are at home, would anyone else be interested?
    
    Bill
92.559JARETH::YANKOWSKASPaul YankowskasThu Sep 03 1992 19:046
    Bill,
    
    Pirates are at home the weekend of the 18th-20th, against the Phillies.
    
    
    py
92.560Pittsburghese - what a language!MKFSA::LONGCarpe diem.Thu Sep 03 1992 19:258
    Thanks Paul.
    
    Jake,
    
    I guess I'll be sucking down Arns at the Three Rivers while yinns
    are partying in Massatooshits.
    
    Bill
92.561ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Thu Sep 03 1992 19:296
    dan'l
    
    so I guess that date went pretty well.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.562SHALOT::MEDVIDthe same deep water as youThu Sep 03 1992 19:5412
>If they are at home, would anyone else be interested?
    
    Probably only about 10,000 other people.  Pretty sad for a first place
    team in September.
    
    RE: that date going well
    
    She's no Jai, and I doubt there will be many that can compete, but the
    road to recovery is filled with humps...er...bumps.
    
    	--dan'l
    
92.563PFSVAX::JACOBBald Head=Solar Panel 4 a Sex MachineThu Sep 03 1992 20:0112
    
    >>I may be in Pittsburgh October 11-13. Probably have bunch of time on
    >>October 11th, too bad NLCS won't be having a game that day.
    
    TCM:
    
    Game 5 is on Sunday the 11th of October.  You figuring on the Bucs
    sweeping, eh??
    
    JaKe
    
    
92.564ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Thu Sep 03 1992 22:038
    I see where I made the mistake. In .539 you gave the dates as October
    8,9,10 and the days as Friday, Saturday, Sunday. 
    
    Is the NL Sunday game a day or night game? If it is a day game, how
    about it??
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.565PFSVAX::JACOBBald Head=Solar Panel 4 a Sex MachineFri Sep 04 1992 00:469
    The game is at 4:00 pm.
    
    You make the call, If'n ya wants to go, I cain order the tickets.  Just
    tell me reserved or general admission(nosebleeds) reserved.  Hope you
    wouldn't mind the Mrs. going with us, too.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.566PFSVAX::JACOBBald Head=Solar Panel 4 a Sex MachineFri Sep 04 1992 03:5410
    The Bucs won their 7th in a row tonite over the Giants, 9-3.
    
    Alex COle(what a great acquisition he's turning out to be) had 4 hits,
    and Orlando Merced went 3-4 with a career high 5 RBI.  DOug Drabek got
    his 11th win(11-10)
    
    The Expos(ed) won so the lead stays at 3.
    
    JaKe
    
92.567What, a pennant race?CTHQ::MCCULLOUGHLindsey AND Melanie's dadFri Sep 04 1992 13:537
Goin' to the wire Jake.  

The 'spos are hot.  I watched a little of their game with the Braves lasted 
night, and they absolutly tagged Liebrant in the firsted two innings.  Buccos 
better keep winning, the 'spos timing seems to be good.

=Bob=
92.568Expos ROOOOOOL!SALES::THILLFri Sep 04 1992 14:195
    Should be a good race. The 2 teams still have a few games agianst each
    other. The Bucs game was 2-2 last I heard. I usta follow the Expos as a
    kid, so I'd like to see them win it. We'll see...
    
    Tom
92.569NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Sep 08 1992 19:5110
    
    After talking with my brother and father, if the Bucs hold on it looks 
    like there's a fair chance that I'll go out to Pittsburgh for those 
    NLCS games Oct 9-11 (if the Series happens, it happens, and I'll play 
    that by ear-- my ideal scenario would be Pirates-Orioles, Round III).  
    TCM, you definitely going to try to go to the Sunday game?  Maybe we 
    could all get together afterwards...
    
    glenn
      
92.570At least 173,000 for Game 7 ... :-)SHALOT::HUNTNo, Daddy, I glued them on the fish!Tue Sep 08 1992 19:523
 Should be plenty of tickets available ...
 
 Bob Hunt
92.571ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Tue Sep 08 1992 22:5310
    Glenn,
    
    Game starts at 4PM which is too late for me that day, if it had strted
    at 1PM ...
    
    Anyway Jake, would probably be game. He and I were planning on getting
    together, having a brew or two, and watching the Steelers get walloped.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.572PFSVAX::JACOBCarp Per DiemWed Sep 09 1992 02:4211
    The Bucs won tonite, 5-2 as Doug Drabek got the complete game.
    
    Barry Bonds hit a 2-run homer in the first to give the Bucs the lead
    from the start, and Orlando Merced hit one out in the second.  Don't
    know how the Bucs scored their other 2 runs, though.
    
    The Expos(ed) were winning over the Cards, 6-1, lasted I heard, so more
    than likely, the Bucs lead will remain at 4 games after tonite.
    
    JaKe
    
92.573Maybe, just maybe...MKFSA::LONGCarpe diem.Wed Sep 09 1992 11:217
>Barry Bonds hit a 2-run homer in the first to give the Bucs the lead
                                               ----------------------
Ugh...well...cough...nice job Barry.

Bill

p.s. Which wine is more appropriate to serve with crow??
92.574Sizzling...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Sep 09 1992 13:198
    
    Yeah, Barry has been hot hot HOT lately.  They're still not pitching to
    him (~.450 OBP is phenomenal), but he's getting the bat on the few 
    pitches left in the strike zone.  What's that, 8 HRs in the last two 
    weeks?
    
    glenn
    
92.575PFSVAX::JACOBCarp Per DiemWed Sep 09 1992 20:329
    BTW, Barry Bonds tied a club record lasted night by being walked
    intentionally for the 26th ro 27th time.
    
    trivia type ???, Cain anybody name who he tied and will pass soon???
    
    JaKe
    
    
    
92.576Kind of surprised to see that; walked to get to Stargell?NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Sep 09 1992 21:027
    
    > trivia type ???, Cain anybody name who he tied and will pass soon???
    
    The Great One...
    
    glenn
    
92.577PFSVAX::JACOBCarp Per DiemWed Sep 09 1992 23:026
    Yep, glenn, Roberto hisself.
    
    I woulda thunk it was Willie S., personally.
    
    JaKe
    
92.578PFSVAX::JACOBCarp Per DiemThu Sep 10 1992 03:259
    Bucs beat the Cubs tonite, 13-8.  homers for the Pirates were hit by
    Gary Varsho, Jay Bell(431 feet), and a grand slam by Jeff King. 
    
    Ryne Sandberg had a grand slam for the Cubs.
    The Expos(ed) lost tonite to the Cards, so the Bucs lead is now 5
    games, and their magic number to clinch the NL East is 19.
    
    JaKe
    
92.579PFSVAX::JACOBWhen did MassPike go '65'???Tue Sep 15 1992 18:308
    BTW,
    
    The Bucs beat the Cards lasted night, and the Expos(ed) losted to, I
    think, the Phillies, so the Bucs lead is back to 4 games.  Their magic
    number, Unofficially, is 15.
    
    JaKe
    
92.580Bucs win, AGAIN!!PFSVAX::JACOBWhen did MassPike go '65'???Wed Sep 16 1992 12:2018
    The Bucs beat the Cards lasted night, 4-2, on home runs by Andy Van
    Slyke, Barry "Wah Wah" Bonds, and Jeff King.
    
    Van Slyke's and King's homers were solo, whilst Bonds' was a 2 run
    shot.
    
    Unfortunately, the Expos(ed) also won over the Phillies, keeping the NL
    East lead for the Bucs at 4 games.
    
    Tonight, the Bucs take one of the best home records in the league
    against the visiting Expos(ed)'s best road record in a two game
    showdown.
    
    Van Slyke raised his batting avg. to .333, .002 behind the Padres Gary
    Sheffield in the NL batting avg race.  Sheffield went 2-3 lasted night.
    
    JaKe
    
92.581Tomlin out?SHALOT::MEDVIDthe same deep water as youWed Sep 16 1992 12:527
    Any status on Tomlin who went out of the game with a bruised ankle?  If
    they lose Tomlin down the stretch, looks like I won't be coming to
    Pittsburgh for any playoff games.
    
    BTW, probably going to the Saturday NLCS...if it happens.
    
    	--dan'l
92.582Again, simply the best. I want this man on the Sox *bad*NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Sep 16 1992 13:3825
    
    > Any status on Tomlin who went out of the game with a bruised ankle?  If
    > they lose Tomlin down the stretch, looks like I won't be coming to
    > Pittsburgh for any playoff games.
    
    That's not good if he's out for the playoffs, but I think it would take
    more than that to derail the Bucs now.  A 4-game lead is tough to lose
    with 18 to play.  Montreal probably will have to sweep the remaining
    four games with Pittsburgh.
    
    I agree with what I heard Peter Gammons say on ESPN yesterday: Barry
    Bonds should be the MVP of the NL, unless Sheffield miraculously pulls
    off the Triple Crown.  Bonds is right up there with Sheffield in HRs
    and RBIs, in spite of missing almost a month and having no one to hit
    behind him for most of the season.  He leads the league in both on-base 
    percentage and slugging percentage.  And there's a price to pay for all
    those intentional walks: even with Orlando Merced and Jeff King behind
    him, he leads the league in *runs* too (with quite a few more than 
    Sheffield, who has Fred McGriff behind him).  Considering the time he
    missed and the Bucs' generally weak offense that last fact is simply
    amazing.  He's the engine to this team, whether people want to believe
    it or not.
    
    glenn
       
92.583PFSVAX::JACOBIf I only had a bulldozerWed Sep 16 1992 14:5211
    Bonds surge recently is directly coupled with Jeff King's finally
    finding a bat.
    
    Jay Bell has a 20 game hitting streak, longest in the NL and possibly
    the Majors this year.  He's hitting something like .349 during those 20
    games, and every hit he gets means another $200 for the Caring
    Foundation in Pittsburgh which provides healthcare for kids whose
    parents cain't afford it.
    
    JaKe
    
92.584kinda like "ckicken on the Hill with Will"MKFSA::LONGCarpe diem.Wed Sep 16 1992 15:0614
    
 >>   Jay Bell has a 20 game hitting streak, longest in the NL and possibly
 >>   the Majors this year.  He's hitting something like .349 during those 20
 >>   games, and every hit he gets means another $200 for the Caring
 >>   Foundation in Pittsburgh which provides healthcare for kids whose
 >>   parents cain't afford it.
 
	In these days of mega-dollar players, with their meag-dollor attitudes,
	It's nice to see something like this.  I'm sure it happens quite often,
	but we never hear about it.

	Beat 'em Bucs,

	Bill
92.585PFSVAX::JACOBIf I only had a bulldozerWed Sep 16 1992 16:1127
92.586closest thing to Ozzie Smith I've seemMKFSA::LONGCarpe diem.Wed Sep 16 1992 16:3815
>>    The bucs are reportedly balking at the thought of signing Lind to the
>>    kind of contract he'll be searching for, so Garcia and his low salary
>>    will walk right in at second base, probably on a permanent basis nexted
>>    year.
 
	Ouch! Jose's "circus-like" catches would be sorely missed by the 
	Bucs, but he has the most anemic swing I've seen.  What is he 
	hitting this year anyway?  I'd be suprised if it is over .200.

	Is the Garcia kid already on the Bucs' roster or is he playing
	in the minors?

	Could it be they are making room for Mr October-NOT's salary?

	Bill
92.587NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Sep 16 1992 16:4615
                                                                           
    >	Is the Garcia kid already on the Bucs' roster or is he playing
    >	in the minors?
    
    Carlos Garcia is already up and has played a few games.  I think he was
    even activated before September 1, so they have the option of adding
    him to the playoff roster if necessary.
    
    Garcia has been a .300 hitter in the minors in addition to being a
    slick fielder (I think he played mostly shortstop, though).  If he can
    hit he just may very well be a more complete player than Lind, at a
    fraction of the cost.  This is the way the game is played these days...
    
    glenn
    
92.588PFSVAX::JACOBIf I only had a bulldozerWed Sep 16 1992 19:218
    The Bucs have to many "Garcia"s.  Miguel is the one who I think came
    over in the Smiley trade and went to the minors right away, and Carlos
    is the infielder.
    
    Lind is batting .236 after lasted nights game.
    
    JaKe
    
92.589a little ketchup with that leather?MKFSA::LONGCarpe diem.Wed Sep 16 1992 20:239
    
 >>   Lind is batting .236 after lasted nights game.
 
	color me suprised! 
	
	If I'm going to keep putting my foot in my mouth I'd better
	start wearing clean socks.

	Bill
92.590PFSVAX::JACOBIf I only had a bulldozerThu Sep 17 1992 12:1323
    Whilst downing a few Newkie Browns at Da Bull lasted night, I sorta
    talked the beertender into putting ESPN on and TCM & I got to watch the
    Bucs play the Expos(ed).  Ya know, TCM has jumped on the Expos(ed)
    bandwagon now that the Mucking Fets have had their visit from the fat
    lady.  It was rough watching him gloat at the Bucs misfortunes lasted
    night(see Marquis Grissom.
    
    The Expos(ed) beat the Bucs 6-3 to shorten the Bucs lead to 3 games.
    
    The Expos(ed) scored 2 in the top of the first.  The Bucs came up and
    got four consecutive hits, the lasted by Barry "Wah Wah" Bonds, on
    which Jay Bell tried to score from second and was out by a country
    mile.  That was the firsted out, and it was uphill all the rest of the
    way for the Bucs.   TCM commented that Bell should have been held,
    cause Grissom had the ball in his hand(and was in the process f
    throwing)as Bell was just rounding third.  That would have had it bases
    loaded, nobody out, and the Bucs only trailing 2-1.
    
    Oh well, hind sight is 20-20(if ya gots a hole in your pants).
    
    JaKe
    
    
92.591CAMONE::WAYAnd monkies might fly outta my buttThu Sep 17 1992 12:378
>    Whilst downing a few Newkie Browns at Da Bull lasted night, I sorta
                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Good man!  Superb taste in beers.  But if you were a real Jordy you would
have called it Broon....8^)


'Saw
92.592Uncharacteristically...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Sep 17 1992 13:588
    
    If Bell had broke on the hit he'd have scored, though.  And between he 
    and Van Slyke the Bucs pulled a real rock on that pop-up where Grissom 
    tagged, too.  Bob Walk stunk.  It was not a good night for fundamentals 
    from the Pirates...
    
    glenn
    
92.593PFSVAX::JACOBIf I only had a bulldozerThu Sep 17 1992 14:476
    On the pop up where Grissom scored, Van Slyke should have made the
    catch 'cause he was on his way in and had the mmentum with him to throw
    Grissom out. Bell, on the other hand, was moving backwards, and had to
    stop, then throw and Grissom beat his throw by a foot and a half.
    
    JaKe
92.594PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollThu Sep 17 1992 15:009
92.595PFSVAX::JACOBIntro to Employee Interest Noting 101Thu Sep 17 1992 19:464
    2nite, Dennis Martinez(see Bucco Nemesis) faces Danny Jackson.
    
    JaKe
    
92.596PFSVAX::JACOBIntro to Employee Interest Noting 101Fri Sep 18 1992 12:2220
    Bucs beat the Expos(ed) in 13, 3-2.  The lead is back to 4 games, and
    the magic # is 13.
    
    Barry "Wah Wah" Bonds went 4-5, knocking in the Bucs firsted run.  His
    average is now .307 and the RBI was his 93rd.
    
    Andy Van Slyke went 2-5, scoring 2 of the Bucs 3 runs.
    
    Jay Bell extended his hitting streak to 22 games with the single in the
    bottom of the 13th that drvoe in the winning run.
    
    The Bucs stranded 15 runners lasted night, and 25 total in the 2 game
    series with the Expos(ed).
    
    Tonite, it's the Phillies .vs. the Bucs, with Terry Mulholland going
    against rookie knuckleballer, Tim Wakefield.  Wakefield is 5-1 so far
    with an era of 2.55 in 9 starts.
    
    JaKe
    
92.597NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Sep 18 1992 13:219
    
    Huge win for the Pirates, especially coming back from being down 2-0.
    Expos should have won, but old friend Spike Owen threw a ball away
    (where have I seen that before?) in the 8th to score the tying run.
    
    This one stems the tide quite a bit...
    
    glenn
    
92.598BUCS UP BY 6PFSVAX::JACOBAnybody got some aspirin????Mon Sep 21 1992 12:2510
    Bucs sweep Phillies this weekend, Montreal loses 2, lead for the Bucs
    is up to 6 games with 13 games to go.
    
    Barry "Wah Wah" Bonds is playing Mr. September, and hopefully he'll
    continue, FOR ONCE, into October and the playoffs.  He has raised his
    average to .315, and I don't know the exact #, but his on-base
    percentage is over .500 in September.
    
    JaKe
    
92.599CAMONE::WAYAnd monkies might fly outta my buttMon Sep 21 1992 12:355
Nobody mentioned the unassisted triple play by the Phillie's (?)
2B.  Firsted time in over 50 years....


'Saw
92.600AND inly the 9th time it's EVER been done!CSTEAM::FARLEYMegabucks Winner WannabeMon Sep 21 1992 12:581
    
92.601One way to ensure that you'll never be completely forgotten...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Sep 21 1992 13:0310
    
> Nobody mentioned the unassisted triple play by the Phillie's (?)
> 2B.  Firsted time in over 50 years....
    
    Mickey Morandini.  My uncle will be pleased; he coached the kid in
    youth baseball back in Leechburg, PA.  Morandini pulled off the feat
    in front of the home folks back in Pittsburgh...
    
    glenn
    
92.602CAMONE::WAYAnd monkies might fly outta my buttMon Sep 21 1992 13:146
I saw the highlight on ESPN.

Sweet, sweet play.  


'Saw
92.603PFSVAX::JACOBAnybody got some aspirin????Mon Sep 21 1992 13:527
    Yeah, I was in a hurry and FORGOT to mention it.  First time in 28
    years in the mjors, first time in 60 some in the NL.. Lasted time in
    the NL was also against the Bucs.
    
    JaKe
    
    
92.604I'll take credit :-)ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Mon Sep 21 1992 14:525
    Hey JaKe, ya owe me a beer Wednesday night for the help Pitt got from
    the Mets this weekend.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.605GRANPA::DFAUSTWith every wish,there comes a curseMon Sep 21 1992 19:069
    re: Triple Play
    
    Interestingly enough, last seasonb another Phillies 2B, Randy Ready,
    *should* have had an unassisted triple play as well. Ready brain locked
    and threw the ball to first, rather than tagging the runner coming
    straight at him. 
    
    Dennis Faust
    
92.606BUCS up by 7PFSVAX::JACOBU S 1992 Rodeo Sex ChampionTue Sep 22 1992 12:1722
    The Bucs won lastd night over this year's favorite opponent, the
    Cardinals, 3-0.  I say this years favorite because the Bucs have beaten
    them fifteen times is seventeen games this year.
    
    The Phillies helped ouit the Bucs lasted night by beating the
    Expos(ed), 9-2.
    
    The Bucs lead is now 7 games, magic # is 6, 12 games to go.
    
    Mr. October_NOT lasted night went 1-2 with 2 walks, and raised his
    average to .316.  He has 10 hits in his lasted 13 at bats.  Hope he
    stays this hot come playoff time!!!
    
    Andy Van Slyke went 0-4, dropping his average to .327, .004 behind Gary
    Sheffield in the NL Batting Avg. race.
    
    Bob Walk reaggravated his groin injuryin the second lasted night and
    had to leave the game.  Rookie left-hander Steve Cooke relieved Walk
    and pitched 7 innings of relief, giving up only 3 hits and no runs.
    
    JaKe
    
92.607Pittsburgh here I come!NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Sep 22 1992 13:211
    
92.608I hear ya breathing heavy, glennPFSVAX::JACOBU S 1992 Rodeo Sex ChampionTue Sep 22 1992 13:285
    
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.609Lets hear it for fan support - NOT!ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Tue Sep 22 1992 16:598
    Glenn,
    
    You should have no problems getting playoff tickets. The Pirates
    started selling playoff tickets 4-5 weeks ago. They still have not sold
    out the games. Amazing!
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.610NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Sep 22 1992 17:1321
                                       
    > You should have no problems getting playoff tickets. The Pirates
    > started selling playoff tickets 4-5 weeks ago. They still have not sold
    > out the games. Amazing!
    
    Hey, they didn't sell them out last year right through game time (and
    the Pirates really have only "clinched" in the past few days).  No
    surprise; that's why I'm not worried about buying tickets in advance.
    But for the third straight year at least there'll be postseason games
    in Pittsburgh to support!  ;-)
    
    To tell you the truth, this year will probably be the worst of all
    attendance-wise.  The papers are still on strike and this has had a
    measurable impact on interest level all year long, and I think many
    Pittsburghers have become bored with the notion of shelling out 
    $20-$40 per game to see the playoffs for the third year in a row 
    with nothing to show for it.  If I lived in Pittsburgh I might be
    saying "World Series or bust", too.
    
    glenn
    
92.611letter to the editor maybeCNTROL::CHILDSGeorge Bush, mental wimpTue Sep 22 1992 17:335
 Glenn,   any chance you'll be submitting a scouting report to "pork chopps"
 Gorman on Barry Bonds????

 ;^)
92.612MVPAXIS::ROBICHAUDW I N D - It BlowsTue Sep 22 1992 17:375
    	If I were Gorman I would kiss Barry's butt in the center of
    Kenmore Square, in the middle of rush hour, with all three networks
    filming to get him to sign with the Slobs.
    
    				/Don
92.613(8^)*PFSVAX::JACOBU S 1992 Rodeo Sex ChampionTue Sep 22 1992 18:066
    The BoSox don't deserve anybody as "well tempermented" as Bonds.  He'd
    be mild compared to Roger "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH" Clemens and
    Wade "wimpy" Boggs.
    
    JaKe
    
92.614You don't want to get me started on this...NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Sep 22 1992 18:0716
    No need for a special scouting report on Bonds.  I've been saying that
    he's the man for over two years now.  If he'd play here he'd make 
    Bostonians forget every player they've ever seen since Ted Williams
    graced the Fenway lawn.  And the thing of it is that I believe that he 
    could be had *if*, as /Don suggests, the Red Sox did the requisite 
    butt-kissing and let Bonds know that he would be the centerpiece of a 
    new era in Boston Red Sox history (and by outbidding everyone else, of 
    course).  In other words, play to his ego and make him feel wanted.
    
    Of course I fully expect to hear the "we didn't have a chance so we 
    didn't even try" line and to again see absolutely no creativity as the 
    Sox go out and get Andre Dawson or some other near-the-end-of-the-liner...
    
    glenn
    
92.6158^)CTHQ::LEARYJackie Sherrill won't STEER ya wrong.Tue Sep 22 1992 18:106
    Ahhh JaKey,
    You'd give your left ventricle to have His Misinterpretatedness
    on the Buccos
    
    MikeL
    
92.616ventricle???????CSTEAM::FARLEYMegabucks Winner WannabeTue Sep 22 1992 18:424
    MikeL,
    
    Are you sure you chose the correct word????
    
92.617MSBOS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrTue Sep 22 1992 18:4213
    
  >> The BoSox don't deserve anybody as "well tempermented" as Bonds.  He'd
  >> be mild compared to Roger "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH" Clemens and
  >> Wade "wimpy" Boggs.
    
     Whenever I hear you Pittsburghers go on and on about things like about
    what a great town Pittsburgh is and such, I'm reminded of that Groucho
    Marx line from 'A Day At The Races' which went something like, "She
    lives in Pittsburgh. If you can call that living." 
    
     If the Red Sox were in the LCS ain't no way you'd be able to buy
    tickets on game day. Small park or no.
    
92.618re:.616SCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesTue Sep 22 1992 18:472
    ...I think he meant tentacle!
                                      Denny
92.619PFSVAX::JACOBU S 1992 Rodeo Sex ChampionTue Sep 22 1992 18:4726
    re.617
    
    If, If, If
    
    
    If a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his a$$ every time he jumped!!!
    
    If you're uncle had t_ts, you'd call him "Aunt"
    
    
    (8^)*
    
    Over the course of the season, the Pittsburgh Pirates have roughly
    drawn what their total market IS!!!  That's 1.5+ people.  If LA or New
    Yuck or Bahston was to do that, they'd draw in excess of 6 mil each,
    with NY drawing over 10 million.  Not a bad feat as far as the BUcs go,
    the economy in Pgh sucking bigtime, plus one of the major sources of
    advertizement, ie The Pittsburgh Press and The Pittsburgh Post Gazette
    newspapers both being non-existent for 90% of the freakin' season.
    
    What did the Red Sux draw this year???
    
    Inquiring minds and all that SLOF
    
    JaKe
    
92.620Unless they are held for game day sale ...ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Tue Sep 22 1992 18:499
    Only other place I can think of where game tickets were available for
    the playoffs on game day was Houston in 1986. This was for game 6,
    after the teams had played 5 tremendous games.
    
    re: Pittsburgh. I have a brother who is now living there. Apparently
    once they got rid of the smokestacks it is a pretty livable town. Geez
    never thought I would be sort-of defending Pittsburgh.
    
    The Crazy Met
92.621SCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesTue Sep 22 1992 18:513
       Socks will probably pull in their usual 2.5 million suc...er
    customers.
                              Denny
92.622PFSVAX::JACOBU S 1992 Rodeo Sex ChampionTue Sep 22 1992 18:5631
    re -.1 and Pittsburgh.
    
    95% of the Steel Mills are gonzo.
    When the Mills were in their heyday, they fired some of the stuff with
    coal, hence the smoke and smog and haze that BLANKETED the city.  My
    grandmother had a coal furnace, and the mung that thang spewed was
    horrendous.  They used to take the rugs and curtains outside once a
    week to beat the coal dust and crud from the coal smoke out of them.
    
    Some of the buildings that look black in Pittsburgh have just started
    to get cleaned, and they come out looking brand new, and all fo the
    black is residue from the massive use of coal as fuel for the trains,
    also for the mills, and it was a widespread common furnace type around
    here.
    
    The city is really cleaned up now compared to how it was when I was a
    kid.  Lots of new parks and recreational areas, the rivers are cleaned
    up(although I still won't eat any fish caught in them).  The city
    streets are SAFE to walk, at any hour, and their clean, also.
    
    Plus the cost of living in Pittsburgh, although it's been jumping big
    leaps recently, is still fairly low.
    
    Plus we have something that New Yuck doesn't,
    
    2 consecutive NL East championships running and almost a lock on the
    third straight!!!!!
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    
92.623MCIS2::DHAMELFlower child gone to seedTue Sep 22 1992 18:595
    
    >    What did the Red Sux draw this year???
    
    Flies, mostly.
    
92.624NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Sep 22 1992 19:0725
    
    Not quite, Jake.  There aren't 6 million people in all of
    Massachusetts.  New York, on the other hand, has no excuses.  They have
    those 20 million people in the metro area we keep hearing about but if 
    either of their teams aren't playing well, they struggle to average
    20,000 per game in attendance for the year (in the early 1980s the Mets 
    struggled to average 10,000).  What you're currently seeing in New York 
    is another onset of the dreaded epidemic known as frontrunner-itis.  At 
    least in Pittsburgh the fans are consistent: no matter what, the 
    Steelers through thick and thin!  ;-)
    
    At least Pittsburghers have one excuse: Three Rivers Stadium stinks in
    a big way for baseball.  Thousands of seats in the upper deck that are 
    useless for the purpose of actually watching a game.  Baseball is my
    sport but I'd think twice about paying $20 for the privilege of not
    being able to see the game.
    
    > If the Red Sox were in the LCS ain't no way you'd be able to buy
    > tickets on game day. Small park or no.
      
    Yeah, Tommy, but I thought you were generally critical of this
    phenomenon... ;-)
    
    glenn
    
92.625tenticle=suction cup=sucky face?CSTEAM::FARLEYMegabucks Winner WannabeTue Sep 22 1992 19:148
    
    I thought a tenticle was a_adjetive used to describe what happens
    when Dickstah does a suck_face to the missus Dickstah!
    
    I am right? Yes?
    
    Kev
    
92.626Excuse me ?MSBOS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrTue Sep 22 1992 19:194
    
    re .624
    
    Critical of what phenomenon ?
92.627NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Sep 22 1992 19:2511
    > Critical of what phenomenon ?
    
    Blind loyalty to the Red Sox in the form of automatic sell-outs.  The
    Red Sox have been to three of those LCS things since 1986 (until the
    A's make it four times this year, as many as anyone else in baseball 
    in that time period), but Red Sox fans are constantly reminded that
    things will continue as they have been until they stay away...
    
    glenn
    
92.628FSBIC::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Tue Sep 22 1992 19:289
    Bill Veeck once figured out that if the Yankees drew in proportion to
    the population of the NYC area in the same way Cleveland did during
    the time he owned the Tribe (late forties), the Yanks would have had a
    9,000,000 annual attendance.  I realize the size of the ballpark would
    prohibit that from actually happening but he felt the Yankees were
    drawing far less people than they should have, given the quality of
    their teams in the fifties and sixties.
    
    John
92.629MSBOS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrTue Sep 22 1992 19:325
    
     Nope. I don't interpret wanting to see the LCS as "blind loyalty".
    Never said it was. 
    
    
92.6308^)CTHQ::LEARYJackie Sherrill won't STEER ya wrong.Tue Sep 22 1992 19:387
    Kev,
    I didn't mean ventricle or tentacle ( seeing it was JaKE, that mighta
    been apropos 8^) ). The woid I wanted to use would not be tolerated
    in our kinder, gentler SPORTS.
    
    MikeL
    
92.631NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Sep 22 1992 19:499
                 
    > Nope. I don't interpret wanting to see the LCS as "blind loyalty".
    > Never said it was. 
    
    Hey, I gave you one of those hated smilies, Tommy.  Just trying to keep
    you a little honest... (isfh)
    
    glenn
    
92.632kinda like watchin an ants play ballMKFSA::LONGIt's a burgh thing Tue Sep 22 1992 19:5410
    re: .624 (I think)
    
    Glenn,
    
    I'm not sure what the ticket prices are for the playoffs, but for the
    regular season they seem really reasonable.  Unfortunately, like you 
    said, a good chunk of the seats (upper deck I would guess seats 15K)
    would give most a severe nosebleed.
    
    Bill
92.633suggested alternative?CSTEAM::FARLEYMegabucks Winner WannabeTue Sep 22 1992 19:5810
    MikeL,
    
    
    I believe the PC and more acceptable word you possibly had in mind
    woulda been "filbert", as in "given his left filbert....."
    
    Am I right?
    
    Kev
    
92.634that trip to Pgh is lookin goodMKFSA::LONGIt's a burgh thing Wed Sep 23 1992 02:4317
    The expos were beaten by the phillies tonight, 5-2.  That makes the 
    magic number for the Bucs
    
    				________
    				|
    				|
    				|
    				-------
    				       \
    				        \
    					|
    					/
    				       /
    				------
    Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the Bucs lost to the cardinals.
    
    Bill
92.635(8^)*PFSVAX::JACOBFifty-Seven brain cells and nothing onWed Sep 23 1992 12:1511
    MikeL
    
    You didn't mean
    
    Testicle
    
    
    Didja????
    
    JaKe
    
92.636PFSVAX::JACOBFifty-Seven brain cells &amp; nuthin onWed Sep 23 1992 12:2810
    As Bill stated, the Bucs lost lasted night, but so did the Expos(ed),
    so the lead remains at 7 games, and the magic # at 5.
    
    "Wah-Wah" went 1-4, Van Slyke likewise, to drop his avg to .327, .005
    behind Sheffield.
    
    The Bucs are 54-25 .vs. the NL East.
    
    JaKe
    
92.637Er, well, ah, sounds like, YES!CTHQ::LEARYJackie Sherrill won't STEER ya wrong.Wed Sep 23 1992 12:481
    
92.638put your p-name where your mouth isACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Thu Sep 24 1992 03:3120
    Another p-name bet in the making. JaKe bets that the Pirates will win
    the 1992 World Series. The Crazy Met bets on the Blue Jays. If neither team
    wins the 1992 World Series bet is off.
    
    If Blue Jays win the 1992 World Series, JaKe's p-name for a week will be
    
    "Mets in '93"
    
    If the Pirates win the 1992 World Series, The Crazy Met's p-name for a
    week will be
    
    "I am moving to Pittsburgh because I love the Bucs"
    
    JaKe please confirm.
    
    MtM nothing to worry about, the last p-name bet we made went off
    without a hitch.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.639PFSVAX::JACOBMartina's half the man Jimmy C. isThu Sep 24 1992 12:3113
    Looks good to me, you gotta get your's to fit in somehow, though.
    
    Bucs lost to the Expos(ed) lasted night, 5-1 in 14 innings.  Moises
    Alou(another give away by the Bucs) hit a grand slam in the bottom fo
    the 14th to give Montreal the win.
    
    The Bucs lead is still 6 with 10 games to go, the magic # for the Bucs
    is 5.
    
    What little hair I have, hurts this morning.
    
    JaKe
    
92.640Temporary setback...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Sep 24 1992 13:2719
    > Bucs lost to the Expos(ed) lasted night, 5-1 in 14 innings.  Moises
    > Alou(another give away by the Bucs) hit a grand slam in the bottom fo
    > the 14th to give Montreal the win.
    
    Yeah, I got home in time to see Barry Bonds pushed around the bases to 
    give the Bucs a 1-0 lead in the tenth, and then stinkin' Belinda blew 
    another lead.  They've really got to do something about that guy.
    
    Dennis Martinez was awesome.  As late as the ninth inning and he's
    still snapping off three-foot yakkers.  A real pro's pro...
    
    Bill, you still up for Pittsburgh?  I can work out the final details 
    with you week after next; right now it looks like leave Thurs 7 Oct
    (after work), return Mon 12 Oct.  Party at TCM's in-laws' Sunday night!
    ;-)
    
    glenn
    
92.641PFSVAX::JACOBMartina's half the man Jimmy C. isThu Sep 24 1992 13:4413
    
    >>(after work), return Mon 12 Oct.  Party at TCM's in-laws' Sunday night!
    
    
    Ya know the difference between "in-laws" and outlaws????
    
    
    OUTLAWS are WANTED!!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    
92.642AXIS::ROBICHAUDJackieMo,That'sAllYaGottaKnowThu Sep 24 1992 15:574
    	I would love to see Barry Bonds get the World Series MVP.  I
    know JaKe would too!
    
    				/Don
92.643PFSVAX::JACOBMartina's half the man Jimmy C. isThu Sep 24 1992 16:2513
    >> <<< Note 92.642 by AXIS::ROBICHAUD "JackieMo,That'sAllYaGottaKnow" >>>

    >>	I would love to see Barry Bonds get the World Series MVP.  I
    >>know JaKe would too!
    
    Hey, I'd love to see Mr. October_NOT do well in the playoffs AND the
    World Series, even pick up the MVP in one or the other.  Just I know
    that, as soon as the last out of the lasted game was made, he'd be
    outta Pittsburgh so fast he wouldn't have to worry about the door
    hittin him in the ass!
    
    JaKe
    
92.644Oh how sweet it is!MKFSA::LONGso many braincells so little timeFri Sep 25 1992 19:4420
    	Da Buccos beat the Expos last night on Mr October_NOT's homer.
    	I can only hope they don't flip the page on the clubhouse calendar
    	next week. ;^]
    
    	and the magic number is:
    	
    				3333333333
    					 3
    					3
    				       3
    				      3
    				     3
    				       3
    					 3
    					  3
    				 3	  3
    				   3	 3
    				     3 3
    
    Bill
92.645Is that the obeese one warming up?MKFSA::LONGso many braincells so little timeSat Sep 26 1992 23:028
    Once again the Bucs have clinched at least a tie in the National League
    East.  The Bucs schelacked the "mucking fets", but the Expos also won
    so the magic number for the Bucs is :
    
    
    				ONE
    Bill
    
92.646SCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesMon Sep 28 1992 10:553
       Bucs Clinch!!!...
    Parade in Atlanta!!
                                  Denny
92.647MKFSA::LONGBucs = NL East Champs x 3Mon Sep 28 1992 11:216
	Bucs clinch !!
	
	Months beginning with "O" banned in the city!


	Bill
92.648CTHQ::MCCULLOUGHLindsey AND Melanie's dadMon Sep 28 1992 12:219
Should be an interesting series.

Braves have been going downward in teh past coupla months, but IMO have 
better talent.  Bucs are peaking, but have a history of having a Dean Smif 
dinner in the playoffs.

We'll see.

=Bob=
92.649AXIS::ROBICHAUDNewEnglandPatriots-ItsGonnaTakeAlotMon Sep 28 1992 13:524
    	Want to try and win your six pack back Denny?  Buccos are going
    to beat the Braves.
    
    				/Don
92.650PFSVAX::JACOBA Rodeo-Sex Weekend was Great!!Mon Sep 28 1992 19:2718
    Hey TCM,
    
    what happened to those Mucking Fets this weekend????
    
    Thought you said the Mucking Fets would help out the Expos(ed) and give
    the Bucs a tough time, NOT!!!!
    
    How's about that Saturday game????   The only thing the Bucs found
    tough about it was getting a rest in between running around the bases,
    what was the final, 19-2?????
    
    I only hope the Braves are as "tough" as the Mucking Fets were this
    past weekend!!!!
    
    BUCS WIN 3RD STRAIGHT NL EAST TITLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.651He's baaaaack...MKFSA::LONGBucs = NL East Champs x 3Mon Sep 28 1992 19:348
	JaKe,

	Glad to see the trip home went well and that you survived the "rodeo".
	;^})


	Beat 'em Bucs
	Bill
92.652SCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesTue Sep 29 1992 11:054
       You're on Slasher! I thought you were a long suffering Braves fan!
    Or is this a possible Kiss o' Death thing? I guess betting a 6-pack is
    like 'really meaning it'!!
                                    Denny
92.653AXIS::ROBICHAUDNewEnglandPatriots-ItsGonnaTakeAlotTue Sep 29 1992 14:055
    	Braves are tired and slumping, Bucs are healthy and on a roll.
    The Mets have to be the biggest waste of money and hoopla since
    the Titanic.
    
    				/Don
92.654CUPMK::DEVLINJe voudrais boire quelque chose.Tue Sep 29 1992 14:0812
/Don

The Mets aren't as bad as the Dodgers.   Remember that.  And a Sox fan caint
say anything about either team.  Heck, between em, the Sox and Mets must 
have a payroll over 80 million, and they neither team is anywhere near the
top.

I do however, have some expectation for the Mets in the near future - they 
have bonafide players and still some talent down on the farm.  The Sox
have nothing on the farm and not much up grazing at Fenway.

JD
92.655(8^)*PFSVAX::JACOBA Rodeo-Sex Weekend was Great!!Tue Sep 29 1992 14:256
    Thanks for the KOD, Slasher.
    
    Sheez
    
    JaKe
    
92.656PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Tue Sep 29 1992 18:448
    I know that the Bucs won yesterday at Wrigley, 10-3, but did Tim
    Wakefield get the win??????
    
    If so, he'd be 7-1, not too shabby.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.657JARETH::YANKOWSKASPaul YankowskasTue Sep 29 1992 18:5011
    re .656:
    
    Yes, Wakefield got the win.
    
    >7-1, not too shabby.
    
    Especially for a pitcher that hardly anyone knew about at the start of
    the season...
      
    
    py
92.658PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Tue Sep 29 1992 19:0415
    
    >>Especially for a pitcher that hardly anyone knew about at the start of
    >>the season...
    
    The guy came up, when, firsted part of August?????
    
    7-1 over the lasted 2 months of the season has been one WHALE of a help
    to the team.
    
    Figger for him to be a starter in the NLCS????,
    
    You betchure butt!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.659PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Wed Sep 30 1992 00:3013
    A little tidbit of info on the Bucs and their play over the lasted 2
    months.
    
    The Bucs, on their lasted trip into Chicago, lost 3 straight to the
    Cubs, leaving the Cubs 3.5 games out of first place.  The date on the
    last game fo that series was July 30.
    
    Since July 30th, the Bucs are 41-15, not including tonights game.
    That's playing at a .732 clip over the lasted two months.  Not shabby,
    not shabby.
    
    JaKe
    
92.660NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Sep 30 1992 12:4810
    
    I got a mail message saying that the Sunday Oct. 11 NLCS Game 5 in
    Pittsburgh has been moved from 4:00 PM to 8:30 PM (if this affects 
    anyone's plans that day).  This, among other reasons, is in order 
    to remove a TV/attendance conflict with the Steelers and to create 
    another one with the Bush-proposed Sunday night debates.  Priorities, 
    ya know...
    
    glenn
    
92.661AXIS::CHAPPELCalling Dr.Howard,Dr.Fine,Dr.HowardWed Sep 30 1992 13:3810
92.662was out for a few daysACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Wed Sep 30 1992 16:219
    Yeah, well, um..
    
    Mets lose 3 straight to Phillies and are tied for last :-(
    
    Red Sox, Mets, Dodgers all in last in the same year, could happen. Who
    woulda thunk it. ouch :-(
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.663SCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesWed Sep 30 1992 17:453
       Bush's debate schedule, 4 Sundays starting on the 11th, could screw
    the Series too.
                                 Denny
92.664PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Wed Sep 30 1992 18:3811
    Drabek is starting game 1, Tim Wakefield gets the nod in game 2, and
    they ain't announced who starts game 3, in the NLCS rematch from lasted
    year.
    
    The Bucs won again lasted night as 4 pitchers combined on a 2 hit
    shutout, making the Bucs 42-15 since July 30th.
    
    Bucs and Cubs are playing as I write this.
    
    JaKe
    
92.665PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Thu Oct 01 1992 03:017
    Bucs lost to the Cubs today, either 5-0, or 6-0.
    
    Greg Maddox got a complete game, shutout, and his 20th win.  My guess
    is Maddox will get the NL Cy Young award this year.
    
    JaKe
    
92.666Beat 'em Bucs!!!!!!!MKFSA::LONGI miss Billy the Kid...Thu Oct 01 1992 18:2714
	In case nobody noticed, its OCTOBER!  Here's my opportunity to
	dine at Cafe Crow, get a good taste of leather, etc. etc.

	My prediction for the month:

	If Mr October_NOT can bat over .300 with at least 2 homers,
	then the Bucs........will......go.......all........the......
	WAY!


	You heard it here first,


	Bill
92.667in case it wasn't too clearMKFSA::LONGI miss Billy the Kid...Thu Oct 01 1992 18:296
>>	If Mr October_NOT can bat over .300 with at least 2 homers,

	for the month of October.

	Bill
92.668heh,hehACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Thu Oct 01 1992 18:353
    You and JaKe will both be eating Crow very shortly.
    
    The Crazy Met
92.669CTHQ1::LEARYJackie Sherrill won't STEER ya wrong.Thu Oct 01 1992 18:427
    Sheesh TCM,
    I would thunk that us lasted place team supporters cain't say Boo.
    Any crow they et would taste much better than the stuff we's got
    to swallow.
    
    MikeL
    
92.670PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Thu Oct 01 1992 18:459
    I agree with Bill Long that if Bonds cain HIT, the Bucs cain go all the
    way, BUT, lest we not forget, Andy Van Slyke ain't been the best money
    cain buy the lasted two NLCS's either.  If Van Slyke and Bonds STAY
    hot, and both of them are hot recently, the Braves will be toast.  The
    World Series, however, if'n Oakland gets there, won't be a cakewalk
    WITH both of them hot.
    
    JaKe
    
92.671PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Thu Oct 01 1992 18:457
    Andy Van Slyke is rapidly closing in on a 200-hit season,
    
    for you trivia moron...er...nuts, Who was the lasted Pirate to get 200
    hits in a season AND in what year did he/she/it do it?????
    
    JaKe
    
92.672AXIS::ROBICHAUDJackieMo-That'sAllYaGottaKnowThu Oct 01 1992 18:4728
              <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 92.666              Pittsburgh Pirates *OFFICIALLY*              666 of 668
        ^^^                                                           ^^^
MKFSA::LONG "I miss Billy the Kid..."                14 lines   1-OCT-1992 15:27
                           -< Beat 'em Bucs!!!!!!! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	In case nobody noticed, its OCTOBER!  Here's my opportunity to
	dine at Cafe Crow, get a good taste of leather, etc. etc.

	My prediction for the month:

	If Mr October_NOT can bat over .300 with at least 2 homers,
	then the Bucs........will......go.......all........the......
	WAY!


	You heard it here first,


	Bill
===========================================================================

	Hey Bill, if you're wrong just say the Devil made you say it.  8^)

				/Don
92.673How was it TCM?MKFSA::LONGI miss Billy the Kid...Thu Oct 01 1992 18:4810
>>    I would thunk that us lasted place team supporters cain't say Boo.
>>    Any crow they et would taste much better than the stuff we's got
>>    to swallow.
    
>>    MikeL


	I couldn't have said it better.

	Bill
92.674MKFSA::LONGI miss Billy the Kid...Thu Oct 01 1992 18:517
	Ya know, Slasher, I noticed that 666 as soon as I put it in,
	but seeing how it was not SPORTS related I didn't want to mention
	anything.

	Lots a dees -> ;^)

	Bill
92.675shot in the darkMKFSA::LONGI miss Billy the Kid...Thu Oct 01 1992 18:569
    
>>    hits in a season AND in what year did he/she/it do it?????
>>    
>>    JaKe


	I'll take a stab at this......Al Oliver in 1971

	Bill
92.676PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Thu Oct 01 1992 18:584
    Nah, twasn't Oliver!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.677ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Thu Oct 01 1992 19:0711
    Dave Parker in 1978 or 1979 when he led the league in hitting??
    
    One other possibility is Bill Madlock
    
    re: Leary
    
    Yeah, but we've been gagging on crow for months, I just want to give
    others a chance.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.678PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Thu Oct 01 1992 19:1211
    
    >>Dave Parker in 1978 or 1979 when he led the league in hitting??
    
    Right player, wrong years.
    
    1977 was the year Parker had 200+ hits.
    
    Good work TCM, have the Mucking Fets lay down this weekend and the Bucs
    cain finish 98-64 AGAIN, for the second year in a row.
    
    JaKe
92.679ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Thu Oct 01 1992 19:197
    Mets have more to play for this weekend than the Pirates do. Mets
    definitely want to stay out of last place. Amazing how Torborg let Sid
    pitch the whole game yesterday; bull pen has been pathetic - that is a
    charitable evaluation - lately.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.680TCM, face it, the Mucking Fets SIP!!!!!!!!!1PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Thu Oct 01 1992 19:284
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.681CNTROL::CHILDSLibertarians, the &quot;If 6 turnout to be 9&quot; PartyFri Oct 02 1992 11:365
 yo Slashermain, the Pirates are like the Trailblazers...I could use another
 t-shirt if you're interested........

 mike
92.682AXIS::ROBICHAUDJackieMo-That'sAllYaGottaKnowFri Oct 02 1992 12:534
    	You're on Mike.  Winner gets a Patriot's t-shirt.  Loser gets
    to wear it.
    
    				/Don
92.683JaKe - whats up??ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Mon Oct 05 1992 15:598
    Boston Globe (Gammons) reported yesterday that there are still tickets
    available for the NLCS in Pittsburgh. I mean Sunday the Steelers play,
    at 1PM and the Pirates at 8:30PM so there may not be enough time to
    switch from one to the other (heavy sarcasm), but Friday and Saturday??
    Truly amazing fan support.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.684PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollMon Oct 05 1992 16:082
    Maybe the fans figure the Pirates have Blue Jay disease and don't want
    to shell out the bucks to see the inevitable?
92.685Where's MrT when you need him? ;-)NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Oct 05 1992 16:2625
    
    > Maybe the fans figure the Pirates have Blue Jay disease and don't want
    > to shell out the bucks to see the inevitable?
    
    Naw, just more rantings from a jealous Mets fan.  As has been repeated
    ad nauseum, the Pirates just don't play in a big enough market to sell
    out a bad stadium at $20-$60 a pop year after year.  The argument is
    really whether Pittsburgh is big enough to support a MLB team any
    longer, not whether they "deserve" one, or any other moral argument.  
    
    Look at the numbers.  There are 2.3 million people in the greater
    Pittsburgh metro statistical area.  In a 55,000 seat stadium over 7
    possible postseason games, you're asking on the average for one out of
    every *six* men, women and children to buy an overpriced postseason
    baseball ticket.  One out of every 6, as opposed to more like one of
    every 50 in a city of 20 million, like New York.  And all of this for 
    the third year in a row, with the previous two years ending in 
    disappointment.  It's commendable that any of the games get sold out.
    
    By the way, from what I've heard, Games 3 and 4 most likely will be sold 
    out, but possibly not game 5.
    
    glenn
    
                     
92.686other small market don't have the same problemACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Mon Oct 05 1992 16:528
    Anyone have the stats for Minnesota?? Isn't Minneapolis about the same
    size as Pittsburgh? How about Cincinatti? Again I am asking since I
    don't know. But I suspect that there are other cities that are about
    the same size as Pittsburgh that have no trouble selling out playoff
    games.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.687CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicMon Oct 05 1992 16:5613
>    Anyone have the stats for Minnesota?? Isn't Minneapolis about the same
>    size as Pittsburgh? How about Cincinatti? Again I am asking since I
>    don't know. But I suspect that there are other cities that are about
>    the same size as Pittsburgh that have no trouble selling out playoff
>    games.
    
But look at the success factor.  Minny's got a champeenship under their
belt in recent years, so has Cinci.  (Cincy knocked off the Bucs two
years ago)....


'Saw    

92.688ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Mon Oct 05 1992 17:008
    Yeah but Pittsburgh did not sell out all the playoff games in 1990.
    And for a game 7 like in 1991 there are arguments that can be made but 
    they are not particularly convincing. There is absolutely nothing in
    sports that compares to a game 7. Not a 5th set tie-breaker, not a
    Stanley Cup OT game, etc.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.689CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicMon Oct 05 1992 17:0410
>    There is absolutely nothing in
>    sports that compares to a game 7. 


Sure there is.  Just depends on your view point.  I cannot think of any
Game 7 I've seen that could compare with the sudden death in the 4th
game of the 1970 Stanley Cup and Orr's goal....8^)


'Saw
92.690The place was half empty!SALES::THILLMon Oct 05 1992 17:146
    I went to a 7th game of a playoff series between the Atlanta Hawks and
    Milwaukee about 4 years ago. Not only was I surprised that I could even
    get a pair of tix, but we got seats in the 18th row from the floor! I
    think they only cost $22 each.
    
    Tom
92.691PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollMon Oct 05 1992 17:328
    TCM, you only address half of what Glenn brought up, namely population
    of the metropolitan area.  The other half of the equation is how many
    seats constitutes a sellout.  Given a small metro population, it would
    be inherently easier to sell out 20K seats than it would be to sell out
    50K seats.
    
    What's the seating capacity of the Metrodome?  Is it as large as Three
    Rivers?
92.692Empty seats for the playoffs is *not* unusual, historically...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Oct 05 1992 17:4732
    
    > Yeah but Pittsburgh did not sell out all the playoff games in 1990.
    > And for a game 7 like in 1991 there are arguments that can be made but 
    > they are not particularly convincing. There is absolutely nothing in
    > sports that compares to a game 7. Not a 5th set tie-breaker, not a
    > Stanley Cup OT game, etc.
    
    If Pittsburgh didn't sell out all three of the playoff games in 1990, 
    then there were only a scattered handful of returns and leftovers 
    available.  The attendances were reported in the 55,000 range, which 
    to me is essentially a sell-out (by the same measure, my brother 
    claims that he was able to walk up and buy tickets the night of the 
    playoff games in Cincinnati that year, too).  They also sold out all 
    of the World Series games in each of the past two years, none of which 
    were played, unfortunately.  ;-(  The only "disgrace" to date is the 
    one game last year, Game 7, where there were 10,000+ seats unsold.
    
    We went through all of this last year with MrT.  The latest knock is
    on Pittsburgh, but in the past, for both playoff and World Series
    games, under a variety of circumstances, in both large and small
    markets, large numbers of tickets have similarly gone unsold.  In 1985
    Toronto didn't sell out its final home game, believe it or not.  In the
    1988 NLCS, when a rainout and a re-schedule tested the resilience 
    of New York Mets' (no! not us!) fans, almost *15,000* didn't show for 
    an exciting Game 2.  Add to that list some other small-market attendance
    disasters of the past in Oakland, Baltimore, Minnesota, and others.
    
    Pittsburgh is *the* smallest market in baseball from some of the latest
    baseball market surveys I've seen, by the way...
    
    glenn
      
92.693CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicMon Oct 05 1992 17:4915
92.694love that p-name 'SawACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Mon Oct 05 1992 18:0211
    
    Mac, I think the Metrodome has 50,000+ seats for baseball. I am sure
    someone has tha actual seating capacity.
    
    Glen, a small nit on 1988 - it was game 3,4,or 5. Games 1,2 were in LA.
    Bigger nit - people may not have shown up, but the games were sold out,
    quite a difference.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
    
92.695Holding tickets and not showing up to root is better?NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Oct 05 1992 18:2619
    > Glen, a small nit on 1988 - it was game 3,4,or 5. Games 1,2 were in LA.
    > Bigger nit - people may not have shown up, but the games were sold out,
    > quite a difference.
    
    Right.  I think it was Game 3.  But why is people not showing up worse
    than people not buying tickets?  You're not criticizing Pittsburgh for
    failing to fill the coffers; you're criticizing them for not being good
    baseball fans.  It would seem that there was a ratio of at least one in
    five ticketholders in New York that year who weren't "real" baseball 
    fans, if they were holding tickets but failed to show.  Or, at the very
    least, I can still draw all sorts of unsupported conclusions from the 
    large number of empty seats, as has been done with Pittsburgh in ignoring
    some rather large mitigating circumstances (small population, poor 
    economic base, lousy stadium w/ 25,000 reasonable seats, etc.), none of
    which apply to the large market of New York.
    
    glenn
     
92.696CNTROL::CHILDSWill Ross, throw George a life-jacket?Mon Oct 05 1992 18:305
or could it be that the majority of 'burg fans prefer football to baseball?
If it were me and I had an extra $100 for entertainment that week, I'd opt
for the Steelers, playoff WS not withstanding....

mike
92.697PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Mon Oct 05 1992 18:4718
    Sheez. a discussion on attnedance in Pgh. and I ain't even gotta say
    anythang!!!  Thanks Glenn
    
    (8^)*
    
    Pitching rotation for the NLCS games 1-3 for the Bucs:
    
    Gm 1  Doug Drabek
    Gm 2  Danny Jackson
    Gm 3  Tim Wakefield
    
    The Bucs have left Zane Smith off of the playoff roster.  IF I HAD A
    FREAKIN' NEWSPAPER, er Excuse me, I got sorta peaved there, I could
    put the full roster in here, but seeing as that Scripps-Howard
    newspaprer is STILL ON STRIKE, I cain't.
    
    JaKe
    
92.698PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollMon Oct 05 1992 18:483
92.699CNTROL::CHILDSWill Ross, throw George a life-jacket?Mon Oct 05 1992 19:012
 I'm just laided back that's all   ;^)
92.700MSBCS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrTue Oct 06 1992 12:013
    
     I'm with TCM. There's no excuse for not being able to sell out an
    LCS game in a market of 2.3 million people other than fan apathy. 
92.701Seems to be a contradiction, don't it?NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Oct 06 1992 14:3326
    > I'm with TCM. There's no excuse for not being able to sell out an
    > LCS game in a market of 2.3 million people other than fan apathy. 
    
    So why in the truest test of fan support, the regular season, has
    Pittsburgh averaged a very respectable 2 million fans a year for the
    past three years, not much worse than the Mets' over the last two years
    and *better than* the Yankees'?  The answer is that during the regular 
    season the Pirates are able to set ticket prices based on *their* market
    conditions, and that there are plenty of baseball fans in Pittsburgh
    willing to pay to come to games at those prices.  Believe me, the
    Pirates have to work very, very hard to survive in a market that small.
    They offer all sorts of cut-rate discount and family deals that teams 
    like the Red Sox and Mets would never dream of doing (but would have to 
    in a comparably-sized market, especially with the teams they've put on 
    the field lately).  But when they do, the fans show up and are less than 
    apathetic.
    
    Unlike anywhere else in the country Pittsburgh Pirates fans support
    their team during the season but somehow become disinterested when the
    postseason rolls around?  It's ridiculous to contend that the laws of 
    economics are magically voided for *any* sporting event, no matter how 
    big...
    
    glenn
    
92.702PEAKS::WOESTEHOFFTue Oct 06 1992 14:4715
  Question: Did the Pirates sell out the LCS in 79 and 71 ?
	    I believe those were 5 games series and thus easier 
	    to sell out. If I remember right, they were sold out.
	    
  Here's some other possible reasons why they are not sold out.

	1. Starting time. I believe they start the night games at 8:30.
	   If the game is 3 hours long, people won't leave the stadium
	   until 11:30 and many won't get home until 1:00 AM or later.
	   Considering people need to go to work or school early, that's
	   a good reason not to buy tickets.
	2. The papers are still onstrike. 
	3. The cost of the tickets.

		Keith
92.703MSBCS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrTue Oct 06 1992 14:4811
    
 >>  So why in the truest test of fan support, the regular season, has
 >>  Pittsburgh averaged a very respectable 2 million fans a year for the
 >>  past three years, not much worse than the Mets' over the last two years
   
     When you consider that 2 million fans per season works out to a little
     over 50 % of capacity per game, it hardly seem like cause for celebra-
     tion. Throw in the fact that you've got one of the best teams in base-
     ball, the game's most exciting player and a city that envies the wild
     nightlife in Buffalo...    
    
92.704NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Oct 06 1992 15:1027
    
    > When you consider that 2 million fans per season works out to a little
    > over 50 % of capacity per game, it hardly seem like cause for celebra-
    > tion. Throw in the fact that you've got one of the best teams in base-
    > ball, the game's most exciting player and a city that envies the wild
    > nightlife in Buffalo...    
    
    This is baseball, Tommy.  Only Toronto and Baltimore (and maybe LA
    before they washed out this year in front of many empty seats) with 
    their new, attractive ballparks come anywhere close to 100% (or even 
    75%) capacity in a ~50,000 seat stadium.  You *don't want* to be 
    holding a ticket for the 50,000th best seat in the house in any of 
    these multi-purpose stadia, believe me.
    
    Let me put it another way and ask you (or anyone else) an honest 
    question.  Would you part with an average of ~$30 a ticket, possibly 
    sold in blocks of 7 as was done before this year ($210 total) to watch 
    postseason baseball?  If not, does this mean you are not a baseball fan, 
    that you are "apathetic", even while you're sitting at home watching on 
    TV, religiously absorbing every pitch?  Yet this is exactly the same 
    decision that a similar percentage of only 2.3 million Pittsburghers 
    have made that you are critical of ('course I'm making this defense
    even as one "dumb" enough to shell it out-- I'll still be there this 
    weekend... ;-)
    
    glenn
    
92.705MSBCS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrTue Oct 06 1992 15:2615
    
  >> Let me put it another way and ask you (or anyone else) an honest 
  >> question.  Would you part with an average of ~$30 a ticket, possibly 
  >> sold in blocks of 7 as was done before this year ($210 total) to watch 
  >> postseason baseball?    

     The answer is an unequivocable YES ! Pittburghers can exhaust the en-
     tire list of excuses but the fact remains - despite the attractiveness
     of the makeup of their ballclub - they will not show up to support 
     their team. The Pirates can't sell out an LCS game when you know that 
     Atlantans snapped up a large number of tickets not to mention folks from 
     other parts of the country who just want to see good baseball. The Pirates 
     team could be in the unenviable position of having a very large, vocal 
     contingent of Braves fans in their own stands and that's got to hurt.
    
92.706NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Oct 06 1992 15:3717
    Okay, okay, I give.  I've never claimed that Pittsburgh is a great
    baseball town (yes, it is a football town first and foremost), but I do
    think that some important mitigating economic factors (read: excuses) 
    do come into play that are important and generally ignored, as when 
    someone tries to compare Pittsburgh to New York or something like that.
    
    One parting shot for TCM, who started this mess, after all. ;-)  From
    today's USA Today, the final attendance count:
    
    Pittsburgh		1,829,395
    New York Mets	1,779,534
                        ^^^^^^^^^
                        I don't care how badly they played, *that's* pathetic!
    
    glenn
    
92.707CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicTue Oct 06 1992 15:4027
It could very well be that in that predominantly blue collar town,
a lot of those folks feel like I do -- there's TOO DAMN MUCH post
season baseball.

Call me a purist (and you probably can as I've often wished aloud in here
that the Giants were back in Manhattan, the Dodgers in the Polo Grounds
and the ATHLETICS in Philly -- and who could forget the Senators....)
but I'd prefer to see all of the LCS stuff done away with.

Two leagues, huge though they may be, with the haves fighting it out
for the pennant and the have nots fighting it out for the cellar.

All followed by one GLORIOUS AND RIGHTEOUS World Series -- in the 
waning weeks of September and early October.


Would I go to a LCS game?  Probably not, especially with prices and
packages like Glenn mentioned.   I just shelled out over $500 for
hockey tix and I'm getting payback on all but two, and I'm sweating
bullets with that much on my card.   8^)


Atlanta, YuppieVille of the South, is a prime example of the other side
of the coin.....8^)


'Saw
92.708Compare apples to apples, not pears to bananasACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Tue Oct 06 1992 15:428
    Sorry Glenn that parting shot won't work. Mets sipped big time this
    year and last year. Please show me the attendance figures for the Mets
    in 1985-6-7-8-9 and for the Pirates in 1985-6. Much better comparison,
    don't you think, then for a team that won 3 division titles in a row
    and one that finished 5th 2 consecutive years.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.709ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Tue Oct 06 1992 15:436
    re: .707
    
    Dodgers in the Polo Grounds? what HAVE you been smoking today?? :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.710Ebbets Field!CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicTue Oct 06 1992 15:4514
>    Dodgers in the Polo Grounds? what HAVE you been smoking today?? :-)
    
Damn, did I type Polo Grounds?

Stupid head was one team behind the fingers...   I had been trying to
decide whether to use Manhattan for the Giants or the Polo Grounds and
a synapse must've stuck at the crucial moment I got to the Dogders.

I mean, everyone KNOWS that the Dodgers shared Yankee Stadium with the
Yankees, right?   8^)


'Saw    

92.711I thought baseball fans show up regardlessPATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollTue Oct 06 1992 15:556
92.712Attendance wars: Round III ;-)NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Oct 06 1992 15:5716
                                          
    First let's talk 20 million people to 2 million, TCM.  Even last year
    with the Mets coming off a decent season with high hopes, they 
    outdrew the Pirates only 2,284,000 to 2,065,000 (I don't have any
    earlier figures, and I know the Pirates struggled to draw a million
    when they were finishing in last place).  I've said it before and I'll 
    say it again, based on my observations of a baseball-mad city like 
    Boston: in a market the size of New York's I don't understand why the
    Yankees and Mets can't sell nearly every seat in *season tickets*, like
    the situation that exists with the Dodgers where they have to turn
    people away in order to hold out a number of tickets for the general
    public.  It's the opposite-- the Red Sox have a larger season-ticket
    base than either, in a market a quarter the size...
    
    glenn
    
92.713round and round and round she goesACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Tue Oct 06 1992 16:1819
    Boston is definitely an aberration. But Glenn you are moving away from
    the original debate here - throwing up smokescreens. First Boston is an
    real abberation - 34,000 seats in Fenway is part of the reason. As has
    been noted elsewhere, because there are so few seats people buy tickets
    way ahead of time fearing they won't be able to get tickets later in
    the year if the Red Sox are doing well. Other than that, 2 other teams
    have had consistently huge crowds - Toronto and Baltimore - both with
    fairly unique situations. Most teams will not sell out 50,000+ seat
    stadiums 81 times a year. 3 million is a hard number to attain -
    Dodgers, Jays, Mets, Cards, (Orioles??), have done that.
    
    What we are talking about here is PLAYOFFS!!!!!! not regular season.
    4 teams get to the playoffs. A team has a maximum of 8 home games in
    the playoffs. Regular season attendance is an interesting topic for
    discussion, but is not particularly relevant to a discussion about
    playoffs attendance.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.714CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicTue Oct 06 1992 16:2426
>    What we are talking about here is PLAYOFFS!!!!!! not regular season.
>    4 teams get to the playoffs. A team has a maximum of 8 home games in
>    the playoffs. Regular season attendance is an interesting topic for
>    discussion, but is not particularly relevant to a discussion about
>    playoffs attendance.
    
Time to hoist you on your own petard here TCM.

If you wanna talk playoffs, then you've got to accept all of the trappings
that go with it -- the extended nature of the current (yawn) playoff
scheme, the megabucks that folks would have to shell out in the worst
economic times since the 30s and the late starts dictated by television.

All that in a market that I'd be my left gonad is more of a football
market than anything else.


At $30 a pop, plus travel time, plus the late start (plus having to buy
six more seats than must my ONE) I'm going to opt to sit home, if
I can watch it on TV.  

Even if I have to pay $25 for PPV to see it....


'Saw    

92.715PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollTue Oct 06 1992 16:265
92.716CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicTue Oct 06 1992 16:3445
>    A hockey fan complaining about 1 additional step to the world
>    championships?


Mac, you've never really heard me get cranked up about the Hockey Playoffs
have you ;^)


For the record, I feel the hockey playoffs are the most bogus of all.
Any time a 4th place team like the Flounders has the CHANCE to get the
Stanley Cup, something is radically wrong.

To me, the hockey playoffs should be

	Division Winner square off, better record gets home ice.
	Winners meet for Stanley Cup.


Short, sweet, simple.


Football?  Simple also:

	Division winner with best record gets a bye.
	Other two do battle.  Winner meets Bye recipient.

	Winner goes to Bowl to face the team from the other 
	conference.....


Basketball?

	Division winners square off.
	Winners play for conference
	Winners play for Championship.  

	(I can't remember how many divisions, conferences...sorry)



I mean, if rugby can pare down 3500 teams in a relatively small amount
of playoffs, so can professional sports.....8^)


'Saw
92.717ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Tue Oct 06 1992 16:389
    Come on 'Saw 2 rounds of playoffs is no big deal. Been consistent since
    1969. 8 games is not a whole lot - maybe we agree to disagree on this
    point. 4 teams get in, not 12, not 16, FOUR!
    
    Money is an issue, sure. But one would think that it would create the
    same problem in many cities (economy stinks all over). 
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.718MSBCS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrTue Oct 06 1992 16:416
    
    re. Time to hoist you on your own petard here TCM.
    
        TCM consider your petard unhoisted. Those are the same arguments
        we've been getting right along and now even Glenn admits they just
        don't wash.
92.719CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicTue Oct 06 1992 17:0928
>        TCM consider your petard unhoisted. Those are the same arguments
>        we've been getting right along and now even Glenn admits they just
>        don't wash.


Of course they wash.

I'll bet if Washington had a baseball team still, you'd see the same thing
there.


If I'm a blue collar guy from Pittsburgh, and I've got two sons, I'm 
going to have to think twice about taking them to see the Bucs play
Atlanta at $30 a pop.  That's $90, plus gas, plus the next day I've
got to get up at 5:30 after getting home at 1:30, and miscellaneous
expenses at the ball park too.

Now, if it's the October Classic, that's another story.


Of course, I can probably take them to a Pens game for $45, and 
be home at a decent hour....


I still don't believe you can read fan apathy into this.  


'Saw
92.720MSBCS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrTue Oct 06 1992 17:3333

   Ok, let's wail on this poor equine cadaver just one more time...

   >> I'll bet if Washington had a baseball team still, you'd see the 
   >> same thing there.

      HAD being the operative word. If Senators fans hadn't been so 
      damned apathetic (there's that word again) they'd still have a 
      team. 

   >> If I'm a blue collar guy from Pittsburgh, and I've got two sons, I'm 
   >> going to have to think twice about taking them to see the Bucs play
   >> Atlanta at $30 a pop.  That's $90, plus gas, plus the next day I've
   >> got to get up at 5:30 after getting home at 1:30, and miscellaneous
   >> expenses at the ball park too.

      Strange other towns don't seem to have this problem. Besides, if I've 
      got two sons and the opportunity to take them to what in a lot of towns 
      is a once in a lifetime shot, I'm not going to let 90 bucks and a little
      loss of sleep stop me. 

   >> Of course, I can probably take them to a Pens game for $45, and 
   >> be home at a decent hour....

      Then you're not really a bsaeball fan and that's my point exactly
      that Pittsburghers aren't all that crazy about the Bucs.

   >> I still don't believe you can read fan apathy into this.  

      What CAN you read into not being able to sell out an LCS if not apathy ?

    
92.721LAGUNA::MAY_BRBad, bad Jackson BrownTue Oct 06 1992 17:426
    Maybe the PittsburgH fans realize that the MEts will always suck and
    figure they've got another 5-6 years of NLCS games coming their way. 
    8^)
    
    HTH,
    Brews
92.722NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Oct 06 1992 17:5038
    
    >    TCM consider your petard unhoisted. Those are the same arguments
    >    we've been getting right along and now even Glenn admits they just
    >    don't wash.
    
    Waitaminute.  I admitted that Pittsburgh is a football town before a
    baseball town (like Baltimore and Oakland used to be when they 
    regularly failed to sell out playoff and World Series games-- and when
    both were also in fairly dire economic straits).  But I still believe 
    that demographic and economic conditions are the primary factors to 
    the inability to sell out these playoff games.
    
    TCM, the connection I made to the regular season was only to point out
    that when given the opportunity to watch good baseball at a reasonable
    price, the fans in Pittsburgh come out to support the Pirates fairly
    well.  Not exceptionably well, but fairly well.  When you started this
    thread, it was not simply to point out for informational purposes only 
    that the playoff games might not sell out again (which remains to be 
    seen, by the way), but to good-naturedly poke some fun at Pittsburgh
    baseball fans.  
    
    I understand that; no big deal.  I do think that support of a team in 
    the regular season is the true test of the fans, though.  Tickets can 
    readily be had by the average Joe and his family at his convenience, 
    for one thing.  I'm really not impressed by the situation that 
    unfolded in Atlanta last year where the team was crapped on for years 
    and years and then people just flat-out blew the wheels off the 
    bandwagon under the weight of all the deep-pockets newcomers who 
    suddenly decided that baseball was the in thing halfway through the 
    season.  But yes, they did sell out their postseason games and will 
    again this year, and probably could sell the park out once over again 
    on top of that.  More power to them; I'm just not terribly impressed 
    by it, because in a much smaller market Pittsburgh was outdrawing 
    Atlanta by a healthy margin when both teams were battling for their 
    respective divisional cellars.
    
    glenn
      
92.723CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicTue Oct 06 1992 17:5236
>   Ok, let's wail on this poor equine cadaver just one more time...

Just figure if I whip it hard enough it'll get up again 8^)


>      HAD being the operative word. If Senators fans hadn't been so 
>      damned apathetic (there's that word again) they'd still have a 
>      team. 

WAshington is a football town, first, foremost and always (after 
politics of course)


>      Then you're not really a bsaeball fan and that's my point exactly
>      that Pittsburghers aren't all that crazy about the Bucs.

Okay, we're close to agreement.  I'd say that the 'burgh is a football
town first and foremost.  Then baseball.


>      What CAN you read into not being able to sell out an LCS if not apathy ?

That it's a football town?

We almost talking about the same thing, here.  I guess I don't like the
word apathy, because it sounds like the fans just don't care, when I think
that they do care, but certain other choices/options influence their
decision.

I almost think we're starting to split hairs...


'Saw

    

92.725NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Oct 06 1992 18:0115
    
    >  Strange other towns don't seem to have this problem. Besides, if I've 
    >  got two sons and the opportunity to take them to what in a lot of towns 
    >  is a once in a lifetime shot, I'm not going to let 90 bucks and a little
    >  loss of sleep stop me. 
     
    By the way, what amounts to a "once in a lifetime shot" in a lot of
    towns is going to be experienced for an NL-record 9th time in 24 years
    in Pittsburgh, not to mention a third consecutive year.  Don't think
    that doesn't make a difference when you're comparing with the nouveau
    experience in Atlanta, or even New York (still with only 4 division 
    titles).
    
    glenn
    
92.726MSBCS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrTue Oct 06 1992 18:033
    
     Using the figures you quoted form USA Today, Glenn. The Pirates
    averaged a measly 22,585 fans per game or roughly 41% of capacity.
92.727NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Oct 06 1992 18:1213
                                 
    > Using the figures you quoted form USA Today, Glenn. The Pirates
    > averaged a measly 22,585 fans per game or roughly 41% of capacity.
    
    What are you expecting?  That's still 7th in the league, not bad in a
    small market (how did their pennant rival Montreal do?), better than
    both the Mets and Yankees.  It's also down from over 2 million and the
    upper half of the league the past two years, with every baseball person 
    I've heard speak on the subject acknowledging that the newspaper strike 
    played a major factor in the decline...
    
    glenn
    
92.728PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Tue Oct 06 1992 18:4633
    Mr. Brydie, you related to anybuddy named "Shaughnessy"?????
    (8^)*
    
    To effectively say that Pittsburgh fans don't give a shit about the
    Bucs is wrong, although we just don't shell out the Bucks to see the
    Bucs.
    
    Now if Sophie had succeeded and got the new stadium built, a baseball
    only place, grass field, all the comforts of a real park, not the
    coldness and echo of a vertical piece of sewer pipe with seats, they'd
    fill it more, but that's neither here nor there.
    
    Re attendance back in the '80s, the Bucs, at their lowpoint, had a full
    season draw of right around 790,000, but I cain;t remember the year.
    
    Personally, I ain't going to any of the games, partially cause the
    house has drained me of the cash I'd need to attend, secondly cause for
    the lasted 3-1/2 years, EVERY Pirate game I've attended, the Bucs have
    lost, approximately 15 games.  I don't want to hinder their drive for
    the World Series, plus, Sunday, I'll tip a few with TCM after I pick
    him up at the Airport and give him the nickel tour of the city.
    
    WTF does it matter if the games don't get sold out???????
    Who really gives a rats a$$ if theres a few empty seats, to me, it just
    seems that the occasional fans want to stay home, drink REASONABLY
    priced beer, eat REASONABLY priced GOOD food, not wait in line for
    bathrooms where ya need waders to keep the urine off the bottom of your
    pant legs, and be comfortably warm.
    
    JMHO
    
    JaKe
    
92.729PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Tue Oct 06 1992 18:5621
    
    >>Who really gives a rats a$$ if theres a few empty seats, to me, it just
    >>seems that the occasional fans want to stay home, drink REASONABLY
    >>priced beer, eat REASONABLY priced GOOD food, not wait in line for
    >>bathrooms where ya need waders to keep the urine off the bottom of your
    >>pant legs, and be comfortably warm.
    
    Let me add to my own note here, also, in addition to the above, I
    wouldn't have to listen to some Obnoxious a__hole, who is drunk and
    screaming his/her lungs out, spraying it when he says it, eventually
    puking up his $45 worth of stadium beer all over me or the kids, and
    then tries to pick a fight with anybody who looks at him/her funny.  I
    always seem to get seated within 2 or 3 rows of some dork like that.
    While staying at home, if I encountered that, 
    
    I'd just tell the wifey to shaddup and go to bed.
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    
92.730LAGUNA::MAY_BRBad, bad Jackson BrownTue Oct 06 1992 18:589
>    not wait in line for
>    bathrooms where ya need waders to keep the urine off the bottom of your
>    pant legs, and be comfortably warm.
 
    Yea, why would Jake want to go somewhere else to do this when he can do
    it in the pleasure? of his own home!
    
    Brews     
    
92.731PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Tue Oct 06 1992 18:596
    everybuddy's got to be a freakin' comedian!!!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    
92.732MSBCS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrTue Oct 06 1992 19:187
    
     Nope Jake, no relation to the dear departed MrT and unlike my esteemed
    colleague TCM, I'm not a fan of a division rival so I have no ulterior
    motive and I don't (well I usually don't) write notes with the sole in-
    tention of irking someone. I just agree with TCM that a first placed team 
    that only draws to 41% of capacity and cannot sell out an LCS game is a 
    trifle sad.
92.733PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollTue Oct 06 1992 19:323
    So, Tommy, if the Sox won the World Series in 1993 and built a 100,000
    seat stadium to celebrate, what would you say if they only brought in 4
    million fans the next year?
92.734Enough already! ;-)NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Oct 06 1992 19:3810
    
    Why don't we see if the games don't actually sell out first, okay?
    Like I said, the message from the clowns in the ticket office is that
    Games 3 and 4 will sell out.  And so far we're still only talking about
    one *stinking* game (out of 7 the past two years, or 14 counting the
    unplayed World Series games) that didn't, which is hardly unprecedented
    in MLB history...
    
    glenn
     
92.735'specially after last weekendCTHQ1::LEARYJackie Sherrill won't STEER ya wrong.Tue Oct 06 1992 19:437
    Don't worry glenn,
    If'n Game 4 don't sell out, you can always point to the Pitt-ND draw.
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    
    
92.736NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Oct 06 1992 19:459
    
    > Don't worry glenn,
    > If'n Game 4 don't sell out, you can always point to the Pitt-ND draw.
    
    That's right, and all those people stuck in the traffic jam coming out
    of State College after the Miami game... ;-)
    
    glenn
    
92.737SPoiled little bratPFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Tue Oct 06 1992 23:1710
    heard today the the Bucs offered Barry "Wah Wah" Bonds a "lifetime"
    contract worth $60 million.  
    
    Bonds said stick it where the sun don't shine.
    
    Sheeeeeit, I'd play fer them if'n they'd offer me $6 mil fer me
    lifetime.
    
    JaKe
    
92.738PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Wed Oct 07 1992 00:097
    The Bucs announced tonite that ther are tickets available for games 3 &
    5, but not many, AND, game 4 is SOLD OUT!!!
    
    Schnort Schitt Schleps
    
    JaKe
    
92.739PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Wed Oct 07 1992 02:4711
92.740I've seen this act before...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Oct 07 1992 12:0729
                                           
    If it keeps going like last night, people will be lining up to return
    those tickets.  You can sense the frustration and anxiety around the
    Pirates.  They set the tone early by picking up exactly where they left
    off last year.  Lead-off batter Alex Cole runs the count to 2-0 and
    then pops up without taking a strike.  Stupid!  Jay Bell hacks at the
    first pitch and grounds out.  Andy Van Slyke is right up and down.  And
    then, of course, leading off the second Barry Bonds swings at three
    straight pitches nowhere near the strike zone!  This is way out of
    character, and precisely the reason Bonds has been "choking" in the
    postseason the past two years (admittedly, he did seem to relax in his
    last three plate appearances, running up the count and drawing one
    walk, and this is exactly what he must continue to do instead of
    trying to hit grand-slam home runs with the bases empty...).
    
    The worst possible scenario seems to be unfolding for the Bucs.  The
    righthander Smoltz dusted them off easily and they're already down 1-0 
    before seeing the tough lefties.  Realistically, because of the 
    pitching rotations, today is a must-win situation.   If the Pirates can
    somehow get to their nemesis Steve Avery I think a struggling Tommy
    Glavine can be had.  But if they go back to Pittsburgh down 2-0 and
    asking a rookie knuckleballer to pull them out of a hole with limited
    offensive support, forget it.
    
    Doesn't look good, but unpredictability is still the reason they
    actually play the games...
    
    glenn
    
92.741NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Oct 07 1992 12:1514
    
    > heard today the the Bucs offered Barry "Wah Wah" Bonds a "lifetime"
    > contract worth $60 million.  
    > 
    > Bonds said stick it where the sun don't shine.
    
    C'mon, JaKe, the Pirates are now throwing around lifetime deals (which
    makes eminent sense for a small-market franchise like the Pirates, and 
    which they probably copied from the Penguins in their deal with Mario) 
    on the day the playoffs start!?  That's stupidity!  If they couldn't
    get it done all summer, wait till the postseason is over, at least...
    
    glenn
    
92.742PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Wed Oct 07 1992 18:3510
    Game update, Game 2
    Mr. October_NOT looked at striiiiiiiiiiiiike 3 in the firsted inning
    with Jay Bell on 2nd, leaving Bonds 0-13 lifetime in the playoffs with
    runner(s) in scoring position.
    
    Schnort Schitt Schleps
    
    JaKe
    
    
92.743(8^(*PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Wed Oct 07 1992 19:4812
    For those who care, the Bucs are losing to the Braves right now,
    somewhere aruond the 5th inning, the score is 4-0.
    
    Once again, the Bucs hitters are making the Braves pitchers all look
    like forkin' Gods.  Avery was merely average against the Bucs and the
    rest of the league this year, but the Bucs ANEMIC PLAYOFF BATS are
    making him look like he should have the freakin' Cy Young.
    
    Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeyit
    
    JaKe
    
92.744when it rains, ...HBAHBA::HAASSir TurtleWed Oct 07 1992 19:565
JaKe, it just got worse

Gant just hit a grand slam and the Braves are still batting...

TTom
92.74593 Maybe????PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Wed Oct 07 1992 19:596
    Yeah, TTom, (sniff)(whimper) I justed heard.
    
    (expletive deleted)
    
    JaKe
    
92.746Aw, hail...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Oct 07 1992 20:121
    
92.747PEAKS::WOESTEHOFFWed Oct 07 1992 20:233
  Now I'm glad I forgot to bring my radio with me today.

	keith
92.748WFHHBAHBA::HAASSir TurtleWed Oct 07 1992 20:295
The Pirates just scratched out 4 runs and Avery is headed to the showers.

And still batting...

TTom
92.749PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Wed Oct 07 1992 20:368
>>The Pirates just scratched out 4 runs and Avery is headed to the showers.

>>And still batting...
    
    What inning?????
    
    JaKe
    
92.750and now it's badHBAHBA::HAASSir TurtleWed Oct 07 1992 20:546
6th or 7th

But now it's bad news. The Braves are batting around. Pendleton just hit
a double with based loaded. 

TTom
92.751How do I get to move to Atlanta???? (8^)*PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Wed Oct 07 1992 20:5612
    The Bucs came back with 4, but the Braves are still batting and have
    scored 5 more and are leading 13-4 right now, with Sid Bream at bat and
    he's the 9th batter of the inning, 7th inning that is.  All five runs
    off of Denny Neagle and Neagle ain't been pulled yet.
    
    Somebody shove a tomohawk up dem Braves lower regions, PLEASE!!!!!
    
    BTW, Barry Bonds misplayed a hit by the PITCHER no less, allowing the
    Braves to get the inning going.
    
    JaKe
    
92.752PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Wed Oct 07 1992 22:288
    Bucs lose 13-5, lasted 10 Braves rus scored with 2 out.
    
    Lets Go Pens!!!!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    
92.753CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicThu Oct 08 1992 11:4611
While I have not seen any of the games, I think I know what it happening.

The Braves got their first taste of the series last year.  They want
to get back there and get back there bad, and they just will not be
denied.

Personally, because I HATE both the American league teams, I'm rooting
for whoever the Senior Circuit sends...


'Saw
92.754SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Thu Oct 08 1992 13:2322
    
    
    	Actually 'Saw, the Bucs have just run into a team with great
    pitching with more to come.
    
    	Adding to the Braves superior pitching is the worn out fact that
    Bonds and VanSlyke are doing their usual sipping song.  So, it's a
    double dose.
    
    	Although I do have to admit that these first two games remind me
    a lot of the '71 series which saw the Bucs drop the first two to the
    O's where the second game was also a huge blowout.... only bad thing
    about that analogy is that the Bucs had the Clemente, and neither Bonds
    nor VanSlyke is no Clemente.. gag, I hate to even mention them with
    Clemente.
    
    	When your big offensive spark is a guy who normally swings a banjo
    for the whole season (Jose Lind) you know you are in trouble....
    
    
    		
    	bill..g. 
92.755NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Oct 08 1992 13:3915
    
    I only got to listen to the game from halfway through the Pirates'
    4-run inning (ended, with two on, by Andy Van Slyke-- every bit as bad 
    in the postseason as Barry Bonds; lifetime .159 BA to Bonds' .157), but
    I was disappointed that after battling back to some degree Jimmy
    Leyland threw in the towel in the bottom of the 7th.  Denny Neagle
    couldn't get the catcher Berryhill out, nor the pitcher Stanton, 
    nor the punchless Rafael Belliard, nor the batboy, nor his grandmother 
    (and Grandma isn't necessarily the worst hitter of that bunch), but 
    damned if Leyland wasn't going to let him try.  With a day off today to 
    rest his entire bullpen, I really couldn't understand that...
    
    glenn
    
                                                                   
92.756CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicThu Oct 08 1992 13:4310
Sometimes ball players are like the guy who lead most of Roger Bannister's
record breaking mile.   He pushed the paced, and then slid out to let
Bannister pass, his job done.

Van Slyke and Bonds got them there.  Yep, you'd expect they'd carry the
team through the post-season, but if it's a true TEAM, others have
to pick up the slack....


'Saw
92.757NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Oct 08 1992 14:1414
    
> Van Slyke and Bonds got them there.  Yep, you'd expect they'd carry the
> team through the post-season, but if it's a true TEAM, others have
> to pick up the slack....
    
    And unlike last year, so far this year the pitching has been a bigger
    letdown than the offense.  I mean, last year Doug Drabek practically
    died out there on the mound keeping his team in the series.  Something
    just isn't right with this team, from top to bottom, with plenty of
    blame to spread around if that's what you want to do (I don't, not yet
    at least).
    
    glenn
    
92.758MCIS2::DHAMELFlower child gone to seedThu Oct 08 1992 14:459
    
    Funny game, baseball.  Bonds could go 4 for 4 in the next two games,
    and statistically he'd show up as one of the "money players" in
    postseason play.
    
    Dickstah
    
    P.S.  Go Boston Braves!
    
92.759ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Thu Oct 08 1992 16:585
    Enjoying it so far. But .. I won't make the mistake of counting the
    Pirates out yet. If they can win game 3 it becomes almost a new series.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.760PFSVAX::JACOBWhere the Hell am I??Thu Oct 08 1992 18:3226
    I heard one of the reasons Wakefield was pushed back a game was bacause
    the powers that be were afraid the knuckle ball would be sorta dead in
    Fulton County Stadium.  They wanted him to pitch on home turf, where,
    up til now, he hasn't lost.
    
    Bonds' lifetime playoff avg is that high????
    
    At the beginning of game one, when he came to the plate, it was .146,
    and he's had, what, one hit since then????
    
    He had only one rbi and one extra-base hit, lifetime, in the NLCS,
    before this series.  
    
    Don't have a box score to look at or anything, cause of the lack of
    newspapers.
    
    Gloat all you want, TCM, I'll drive ya 40 miles from Pgh. Sunday and
    drop you off and make ya walk.   (8^)*
    
    There's always a chance the Bucs will pull this out of their hat, but
    if'n I was a bettin' man, I'd say Braves in 5.
    
    Schnort Schitt Schleps
    
    JaKe
    
92.761ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Thu Oct 08 1992 19:096
    Nah JaKE, I haven't started gloating yet. I know enough about LCS
    weirdness to wait for anything like that until after the fat lady (well
    maybe we'll let 'Saw do the honors :-) sings. (see Big Boys note)
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.762CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicThu Oct 08 1992 19:2214
>    Nah JaKE, I haven't started gloating yet. I know enough about LCS
>    weirdness to wait for anything like that until after the fat lady (well
>    maybe we'll let 'Saw do the honors :-) sings. (see Big Boys note)
    
Hey, I ain't no fat lady.

I'm downright skinny these days.  8^)


Maybe we could put a wig on Ray Handjob and peench his ear really hard....


'Saw    

92.763ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Fri Oct 09 1992 19:238
    No intention of restarting a debate. Just something that surprised me
    on ESPN last night.
    
    Pirates announced that game 3 was a sell out. This is the first sellout
    the Pirates have had for an NLCS game, ever. 
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.764CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicFri Oct 09 1992 19:4820
>    Pirates announced that game 3 was a sell out. This is the first sellout
>    the Pirates have had for an NLCS game, ever. 
    
See, Game 3 is for Friday Night, right?  Well that's cool.

You have to realize that Pittsburgh has a large Polish and a large
Catholic population.  

Tuesday night (game 1) was Bowling Night, plus there was a major
Polka concert given by Stanislaw Boshinky, the Polka King of the
Monongehela Vallley.

Wednesday night was BINGO night, so the moved the game to the afternoon.
Unfortunately, the KoC was having a function in the afternoon too....



AS always, no malic intended, no offense intended,
'Saw    

92.765PFSVAX::JACOBCould Ted Williams bat .400 today?Fri Oct 09 1992 20:196
    FWIW,
    
    Saturday night's Game 4 is sold out, too.
    
    JaKe
    
92.766CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicFri Oct 09 1992 20:249
>    FWIW,
>    
>    Saturday night's Game 4 is sold out, too.
    
Well, Lawrence Welk has been dead for a while and even the reruns
are getting old.....

;^)    

92.767ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Fri Oct 09 1992 20:498
    re: .766
    
    'Sawmain and you are calling me COLD??? :-)
    
    I remain, a defender of Kev's when
    others attack him.
    The Crazy Met
    
92.768PFSVAX::JACOBCould Ted Williams bat .400 today?Fri Oct 09 1992 21:1910
    
>>Well, Lawrence Welk has been dead for a while and even the reruns
>>are getting old.....
    
    <text of reply selectively set hidden>, charlie!!!!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    
92.769Finally, they looked decentPFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a daySat Oct 10 1992 02:3222
    The Bucs bats finally woke up, and Tim Wakefield stops the Braves on 5
    hits, although 2 of those hits were solo HR's by Gant and Bream.
    
    Don SLaught hit a homer for the Bucs to score their firsted run, and
    Andy Van Slyke doubled, then moved to third on a fly ball by "Wah Wah"
    Bonds, then scored on a double by Jeff King.
    
    The Bucs got their lasted run when Gary Redus singled(Redus had a
    single, double and triple in the game, plus a few nice defensive plays)
    then Jay Bell doubled and Redus stopped at third, and scored on hitter
    later on an Andy Van Slyke Sac fly.
    
    SO, the Bucs won 3-2, putting them down 2 games to 1 to the Braves.
    
    Attendance tonite was a sellout.
    
    Capacity for the playoffs is 56248 and there were 56210 there.
    
    GO BUCS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.770PFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a daySat Oct 10 1992 02:4313
    Tomorrow(Sat) it's Drabek against Smoltz again.
    
    When Don Slaught hit his homer, it was the first Pirate run scored
    during a LCS in over 31 innings.
    
    TRIVIA QUESTION:
    
    Tim Wakefield's complete game was just the 4th Pirate complete game in
    their NLCS history, name the pitchers in the other 3.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.7713-1 Braves; close but not quite over (see 1979)ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Sun Oct 11 1992 03:0616
    re: .770
    
    Slaught's HR was the first run the Pirates had scored at HOME in over
    31 LCS innings.
    
    Pirates lose game 4 6-4. Braves took a 2-0 lead, Pirates tied the score
    than later led 3-2. Van Slyke had a run scoring double. Bonds again did
    zippo. Braves scored 2 with 2 outs, including a single, steal by
    Smoltz, double by Nixon, single by ??. Braves extended lead to 6-3.
    Pirates got it to 6-4. Stanton came in to strikeout Bonds and Reardon
    pitched a perfect 9th.
    
    Avery vs Walk in game 5.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.772(8^(*PFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a daySun Oct 11 1992 13:3012
    The wound is deep, the bleeding profuse.  Dr. Leyland is working
    feverishly to try and save this patient, near death, the wound dealt by
    the tomahawk of a tribe of Braves.
    
    Dr. Leyland remains cautiously optimistic, although death appears
    imminent.  One major problem is hindering the recovery of this team,
    the Heart is failing.
    
    Film at 11
    
    JaKe
    
92.773PFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a daySun Oct 11 1992 13:318
    It appears some organization has awarded Barry Bonds a new car for some
    reason or another, but they told him to send his wife to pikc it up
    because
    
    HE CAN'T DRIVE ANYTHING HOME IN OCTOBER!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.774GO BUCS!!!!PFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a dayMon Oct 12 1992 03:4018
        Just as last rites were being administered to the patient,
and the doctor was put on standby to be ready at a moments notice to come to 
the room and pronounce the patient officially dead, the patient started
rallying.  The heart, heretofore the one weak link in the body, started
to beat on its own, respiration quickened, and the patient actually woke up.

        Dr. Leyland was happy at the resurgence in the patient, but was 
constantly reminded of the calm before the storm syndrome where a near death
patient appears to rally and show signs of living, only to die peacefully
in the night, while sleeping.  This patient is by no means "dead" yet, 
but he rmains in very critical condition, and will remain under constant
observation over the next 3 days. If the patient survives the next 3 days,
he'll be out of the woods and will live at least another week and a half.

Long Live the Bucs

JaKe

92.775Bucs down by a game with (possibly) 2 to goPFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a dayMon Oct 12 1992 03:4232
        Friday and Sat sell out, and tonite had 52k plus in the stadium.    
TCM and I were at a bar about 100 yards from the stadium, and at 2 pm,
the bartender had about 30 tickets for sale, and more were coming in all 
the time, from fans who didn't feel like braving the cold and rain to see
what, with Bob Walk starting for the Bucs, was probably the Bucs lasted 
game in 1992.

        Well, Walk threw one of those career type games, giving up only 
3 hits, while walking 5, and throwing only the 14th complete game in his
career in 229 starts.  Walk matched his career "low-hit" game with the 
three hitter, tha last one coming in 1980 when Walk was pitching for the
Phillies.  I must admit, when I heard that Walk was starting tonite, I was
not, in the least, optomistic about the Bucs chances, but Walk came thru
with the most important win of his Bucco career.

        Barry "Wah-Wah" Bonds, fresh off of his LONG meeting with Jim
Leyland after lasted nights game, stroked a double, make that an RBI DOUBLE
in a first inning that saw the Bucs dismantle one of their nemesis', Steve
Avery, who only lasted 1/3 of an inning, while giving up 4 runs on 5 hits,
4 of which were HARD HIT doubles.  The 4-0 lead was all the Bucs would need
for this night, but they added a few more later in the game, and won by a
score of 7-1. Bonds would end the evening with 2 hits in 5 at bats, one RBI, 
and 2 runs scored, plus one GEM of a play on the run in the gap in left to
save a run.

        Tuesday night, Rookie knuckle-ball sensation TIm Wakefield will 
take his specialty pitch to Fulton County Stadium and try to help the Bucs 
even this series up at three.  They will face Tom Glavine.

        
JaKe
                                                                
92.776AXIS::ROBICHAUDJackieMo-That'sAllYaGottaKnowMon Oct 12 1992 11:264
    	I would love to see the Bucs take two in Hotlanta just to shove
    it up Ted&Jane's non-tannable anatomy part.
    
    				/Don
92.777PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollMon Oct 12 1992 12:403
92.778PFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a dayMon Oct 12 1992 18:4813
    
    >>So,  did you and TCM take advantage of this situation?
    
    Nah, He had to be to his brother's house by 4:30, so's we had a few
    brewskis, and some spicy fries, watched the abomination they tried to
    pass off as a Steeler game, and then I took him to Toys '(backwards R')
    Us so's he could get sumthin for his nephew, then off th=o Squirrel
    Hill to drop him off, then I went to the In-Laws fer a veritable feast,
    then home to get the kiddies in bed, then parked on the couch and
    watched the Buccos anhilate the Braves.
    
    JaKe
    
92.779SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Mon Oct 12 1992 18:519
    
    
    	Also saw in the paper today that Oakland is having a hard time 
    selling out their games.  So it appears that it's just not the Pirates
    that are having a tough time selling out.
    
    
    							bill..g.
    
92.780Pittsburgh hasn't given up...NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Oct 13 1992 16:1342
                         
> Friday and Sat sell out, and tonite had 52k plus in the stadium.    
> TCM and I were at a bar about 100 yards from the stadium, and at 2 pm,
> the bartender had about 30 tickets for sale, and more were coming in all 
> the time, from fans who didn't feel like braving the cold and rain to see
> what, with Bob Walk starting for the Bucs, was probably the Bucs lasted 
> game in 1992.
    
    Were you guys at the Clark Bar?  I read where Barry Bonds stopped by
    there with Bobby Bonilla (I'm not kidding) on Sunday afternoon before
    the game and received a rousing welcome.  I was somewhat surprised to 
    see the way the fans treated Bonds the entire series.  In spite of the 
    repeated failure, they're behind him all the way.  Who knows, it might
    just pay off yet... 
    
    Anyone who concludes that Pirates fans are not supportive based on
    these past three games just doesn't have a clue.  We were at all three 
    games and those were the most enthusiatic crowds I know I've seen in 
    Pittsburgh, and definitely more so than the past two playoffs (and
    infinitely more enthusiatic than the crowds I saw that greeted the 
    Boston Red Sox as they approached their execution at the hands of the 
    A's in 1988 and 1990).  Friday night the stadium was alive, and no 
    small wonder as it was a terrific game, the best I've seen in person 
    this year.  Wakefield is really something, and quite a story.  Saturday 
    night it took us over two hours to find tickets on the street; no one 
    we ran into the night before had anything.  Sunday night was a slight 
    letdown, but still what I would call a virtual sell-out, with only 
    3000+ of the worst seats at the top of the outfield upper deck empty.  
    Considering the stadium capacity, turnout was quite a bit better than 
    what the A's had in Oakland.
    
    Taking two out of three made it an enjoyable and worthwhile trip on the
    whole.  Still a hole to dig out of, but on the bright side no matter
    what happens we get to see Tim Wakefield pitch again tonight.  Most of 
    the fans in Pittsburgh wanted to see Wakefield again on Sunday night on 
    a day's rest (and probably Tuesday, too, if necessary), but Leyland 
    played it right.  The Pirates now at least have two quality pitchers at 
    the ready to go down with, although Doug Drabek has been the biggest 
    disappointment of the entire series so far.
    
    glenn
    
92.781PFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a dayTue Oct 13 1992 18:5012
    Yeah, we was at the Clark Bar & Grill until about 3pm.
    
    IF Wakefield has his good stuff tonite, and the Bucs win, I think
    Drabek will come thru with a good outing tomorrow.  I just cain't see
    him laying down for three consecutive starts in the NLCS, he's been
    pretty damned good in the past, just not got any run support, sorta
    like the regular season this year.
    
    GO BUCS!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.782FDCV06::KINGI've upgraded my standards.. UP YOURS!!!!!!!Wed Oct 14 1992 00:114
    Top of the 2nd... 4-0 Pitts..
    
    Bonds leads off with a hr..
    2 singles... double.... error..
92.783PFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a dayWed Oct 14 1992 00:229
    REK
    
    Make that 8-0, and there's only one out.  Bonds just got his second hit
    of the 2nd inning, a single to go along with his first ever NLCS HR.
    
    GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo BUCS!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.784PFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a dayWed Oct 14 1992 01:574
    End of the 6th inning, 13-1, Bucs.
    
    JaKe
    
92.785PFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a dayWed Oct 14 1992 02:4628
    The Bucs won tonite forcing a 7th game in the NLCS.
    
    Final score was 13-4 with rookie Knuckleballer Tim Wakefield pitching
    his 2nd complet game victory of the series, something that had only
    been done twice before this year in the NLCS, and that was by Mike
    Scott in '86 and Danny Cox in 1987.  Wakefield threw 138 pitches en
    route to the victory.
    
    The eight runs given up by Tom Glavine in the 2nd inning were the most
    runs given up by ONE pitcher in ONE inning EVER in post season play.
    
    Schmoltz versus Drabek tomorrow night.
    
    
    GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
    
    BBBBBBBBBB     U        U        CCCCCCC       SSSSSSSS
    B         B    U        U       C       C     S        S
    B         B    U        U       C             S        
    BBBBBBBBBB     U        U       C              SSSSSSSS
    B         B    U        U       C                      S
    B         B    U        U       C       C     S        S
    BBBBBBBBBB      UUUUUUUU         CCCCCCC       SSSSSSSS
    
    
    JaKe
    
                         
92.786GREAT seriesCTHQ1::MCCULLOUGHLindsey AND Melanie's dadWed Oct 14 1992 11:359
Tim Wakefield was outstanding.  That knuckleball was really moving around.  It 
still amazes me that those guys can throw that sucker with virtually NO spin
on the ball whatsoever.  (Try it some time).

Big Mo is with the Bucs, but Schmoltz is a pretty cool customer.

Cain hardly wait for this game 7...

=Bob=
92.787Never say die!NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Oct 14 1992 12:5419
    
    Wakefield is GAWD (even if he didn't need to be last night)!
    
    Looks like we can remove the name of local kid Tommy Glavine from the
    list of pitchers that the Red Sox should replace Roger Clemens with so
    that they can finally win something.  His entire postseason career has
    been worse than putrid.  I suspect that this year he's still hurting
    and someone's not talking, though.
    
    You just can't call tonight's game.  Normally I'd say that the momentum
    is entirely with Pittsburgh (and that stat where 12 of 13 final-game 
    playoff winners also won the preceding game is telling), but Smoltz is 
    a tough customer; the Braves' best pitcher so far in this series.  One
    nice thing is that the Pirates got another look last night at the Braves' 
    entire bullpen excepting Mike Stanton and meatballer Jeff Reardon.  The
    Braves really need Smoltz to go at least seven innings tonight.
    
    glenn
    
92.788AXIS::CHAPPELCalling Dr.Howard,Dr.Fine,Dr.HowardWed Oct 14 1992 14:177
So, JaKe, what was it that you were saying about Barry Bonds ?


Inquiring ...etc


Chap
92.789glad I didn't miss A GAME last nightFRETZ::HEISERevidence that demands a verdictWed Oct 14 1992 15:381
    
92.790SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Wed Oct 14 1992 15:4229
    
    re: Pittsburgh fans
    
    	I forgot to bring up this point the other day when folks were
    talking about the lack of fan support and so forth.
    
    	Well, this past weekend showed that the fans will still come out.
    Let's see, the Pirates were playing Atlanta at home, Pitt was hosting
    Notre Dame, Penn State hosted Miami earlier in the day, and I'm not
    sure, but were the Penguins home or away?
    
    	Anyway, I heard from my parents that there wasn't a hotel room 
    available in Pittsburgh at all.  True that Penn St. is about 3 hours
    away, but a lot of folks still use the Pittsburgh airport.  Not to
    mention that even though Pitt got creamed, the game was still attended
    well from what I saw on T.V. while the Bucs were busy at 3 Rivers at
    the same time.
    
    	So given all the choices, it is pretty amazing that the Bucs were
    in fact still able to sell out the house in what remains as one of the
    smallest pro markets in the US...not to mention that there isn't a 
    local paper to be found either!
    
    	As for last night, glad to see the Bucs coming around.  Maybe the
    giant has finally woke up.  Could be a real hummdinger tonight!
    
    
    								bill..g.
    
92.791Bonds...Mr. October...MAYBE? :*)GENRAL::WADEWed Oct 14 1992 16:171
    
92.792Thanks JaKE, I had a good timeACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Wed Oct 14 1992 16:2326
    
    Well it all boils down to the greates thing that Sports can offer, a
    7th game. In the first part of the NLCS the Bucs looked like they had
    no clue as to what was happening and were fortunate that Wakefield got
    them the win in game 3. The last 2 games the roles have been reversed.
    So what does that mean?? Absolutely nothing! In baseball, more than any
    other sport, the outcome of any one game is a crapshoot. The best team
    often does lose to the worst team during the season. With two top teams
    playing a 7th game, anything can, and often does happen. Can Smoltz
    dominate the Pirates again? Can Drabek find the elusive ingredient that
    he was missing in game 1 and 4? Can Redus and McLlendon stay that hot?
    This is what makes this so much fun.
    
    Sure I am rooting for the Braves (actually against the Pirates). But
    the Pirates deserve the credit for coming back like they have.
    
    fwiw some trivia: In 1979 Baltimore had a 3-1 lead and lost the series.
    KC ame back twice in 1985, Boston in the 1986 ALCS. Brewers and SD came
    back from 2-0 deficits in LCS play (best 3 of 5 still). At least since
    1979 any team that came back to tie from a 2 game deficit when they
    could not afford another loss, has won the deciding game.
    
    Hoping for a good, well played game tonight.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.793Mr October_Not_Not!AXIS::ROBICHAUDJackieMo-That'sAllYaGottaKnowWed Oct 14 1992 16:431
    
92.794Fair weather feign jest like T! 8^)'sCTHQ1::LEARYJackie Sherrill won't STEER ya wrong.Wed Oct 14 1992 16:497
    Let's wait till our residue Pirate optimist JaKe gits in.
    Wasn't he writing off the Buccos and pining fer the Pengoons
    after Game 2??
    
    He of little faith
    MikeL
    
92.795Sit your hottest hitters down?-- could be a critical decisionNAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Oct 14 1992 17:3717
> Can Redus and McLlendon stay that hot?
    
    According to Jim Leyland in an interview I saw this morning, neither
    player will start tonight.  He's going to go with what got him there,
    which is his left-handed platoon lineup, despite the weak performances
    of Merced, Cole, and Lavalliere so far in the NLCS.  I can't really
    argue too much with the decision to put Merced at first base, because
    he has hit righthanders pretty well this year and is a better fielder
    than Redus, but I'd still feel better if Slaught and either Redus or 
    McClendon (in right field) were starting.  Slaught in particular has 
    hit righties better than lefties the past two years anyway, and just
    looks much more confident up at the plate than Lavalliere.  And I
    have little confidence in Alex Cole at this point...
    
    glenn
    
92.796no win situationACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Wed Oct 14 1992 17:409
    Hmm,
    
    Didn't Leyland always have a rep for taking a chance. Sure he got to a
    the playoffs with a platoon. But he won games 5-6 partially because of
    some red hot ballplayers. He will surely be secodn guessed if Merced,
    Lavallier, Cole, do zippo and Braves win a tight game.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.797Leyland plays it pretty straight...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Oct 14 1992 17:4815
    
    > Didn't Leyland always have a rep for taking a chance.
    
    Leyland is actually a very conservative in-game manager.  Lots of
    first-inning sac bunts (from Jay Bell), not much stealing, not too 
    many hit-and-run plays.  I almost blew a gasket at Game 4 when 
    Leyland didn't have the nuts to pitch to Mark Lemke in a 0-0 game in
    the second inning with first base open and the pitcher coming up.  The
    aggressive play there is to go after Lemke and try to take the Braves
    out of the next inning too, by making the pitcher lead off.  Then of
    course Smoltz went ahead and got a base hit to get the big inning 
    rolling anyway...
    
    glenn
    
92.798PFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a dayWed Oct 14 1992 18:5130
    Sure, I put in a "Lets go Pens" line at the end of the note detailing
    the Bucs loss in game 2, and I felt that the Braves would win it in 5,
    'specially when I ofund out Walk was pitching Sunday.  I think I told
    TCM Sunday that the Bucs would need one helluva game from Walk, and by
    God, they got it.
    
    Bonds resurgence, of sorts, is a long time in coming.  The one thing it
    ain't is permanent.  Let Bonds knock in a few in tight situations
    tonite, or just start off a rally or two, like he did lasted night, and
    then I'll believe it.  I've always thought the Bonds is a VERY GOOD
    ball player, but a mental midget.  What may have happened is that
    Leyland took him aside Saturday night, and talked his ego right out of
    the way.  I'd just like to see him continue playing in the form he had
    in September, tonight.  If the Bucs lose tonite, and it's in the cards
    that Bonds signs fer some other team this winter, then may he blow out
    his knees BIGTIME in the ninth inning.  If not, may he have continued
    health as long as the Bucs need it.
    
    It's fitting that the Bucs won the game lasted night, it was the 32nd
    anniversary of Bill Mazeroski's home run at Forbes field in the 9th
    inning of game 7 of the 1960 World Series, the shot that sunk the
    Yankees.
    
    The Braves starting pitching in the lasted two games has lasted a
    combined 1-1/3 innings.  May Smoltz not have such good luck tonite.
    
    Hoping fer a Bucco Victory tonite
    
    JaKe
    
92.799Face it RaKe, you're a FairWeatherFain...AXIS::ROBICHAUDJackieMo-That'sAllYaGottaKnowWed Oct 14 1992 18:531
    
92.800PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollWed Oct 14 1992 18:546
92.801ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Wed Oct 14 1992 18:557
    re: .800
    
    dream on. I would bet that Bonds will stay in the NL or be a Yankee
    next year if he moves to the AL.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.802PFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a dayWed Oct 14 1992 18:589
    
    >>Now cut that out!  Many of us want to see Bonds wearing red sox next
    >>spring.
    
    Ok with me, as long as he's hobbling around on a set of Red Sox
    crutches.
    
    JaKe
    
92.803PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollWed Oct 14 1992 19:133
    With Steinbrenner coming back I don't think Bonds will be wearing
    pinstripes.  I think George will try to get Bonds to NY, but I don't
    think Bonds is stupid enough to play for him.
92.804PFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a dayWed Oct 14 1992 19:1712
    
    >>think Bonds is stupid enough to play for him.
    
    I'd play for Steinbrenner for the kind of money he'll offer Bonds.
    If Georgy pisses Bonds off, BOnds cain just tell him to kiss his high
    paid a$$, and Steinbrenner will trade Bonds AND his big contract to
    Oakland.
    
    Anyway you look at it, BOnds will have a major sized contract.
    
    JaKe
    
92.805Another important stat :-)ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Wed Oct 14 1992 19:2712
    Can't forget about the ex-Cubs factor.
    
          Atlanta            Pittsburgh        Toronto      Oakland
          -------            ----------        -------      -------
          Damon Berryhill    Lloyd McClendon   Joe Carter   Dennis Eckersley
                             Gary Varsho       Pat Tabler
                             Danny Jackson
    
    The more ex-Cubs the worse the odds.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.806If Bonds as a Pirate ends tonight, so be it...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Oct 14 1992 19:3022
    I think the team that Bonds is most likely to end up with is Atlanta.
    Unlike the Red Sox ownership, Ted Turner has some vision and
    understands the value of a franchise player with the talent to back 
    it up, and won't be afraid to shell out the commensurate bucks.  
    Atlanta, as a winning team in a large but unhostile environment, 
    will appeal to Bonds.  I heard reports on the radio out of New York
    (hey, then they must be true) of rumors that Bonds has already checked 
    out the housing situation in Atlanta on visits during the season.  
    The only shame of it is that Atlanta is deep throughout their 
    organization and is one team that probably doesn't desperately need a 
    player of Bonds' abilities.   
    
    I'll stick with the guy all the way through while he's with the Pirates
    as I have in here since last season, no matter what his final decision
    is.  Frankly, I think Barry has grown up a lot in the last two years,
    since that infamous spring training argument with Leyland.  Any guy who
    can carry on a legitimately sincere and mutual pseudo-father-son 
    relationship with a standup guy like Jimmy Leyland is all right by me.
    
    glenn
    
92.807ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Wed Oct 14 1992 19:337
    To continue the scenario of Bonds in Atlanta. That leaves Binds, Gant,
    Nixon(?) in the OF. Leaving Justice, Smith, Sanders. That right??
    Justice could bring a lot in a trade. Braves could dominate the
    NL West for a few years with this scenario.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.808PFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a dayWed Oct 14 1992 23:4713
92.809PFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a dayThu Oct 15 1992 01:348
    End of 6 innings, Bucs lead, 2-0.  The Braves just fot the bases loaded
    with nobody out and didn't score a thang.
    
    GO BUCS!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.810LUDWIG::GARRYDALLAS COWBOYS ARE BACKThu Oct 15 1992 02:332
    top of the 9th still 2-0 bucs.....going to the bottom of the 9th and
    the boys are 3 outs from going home to take on the Jays...............
92.811It won't be long now...MKFSA::LONGI miss Billy the Kid...Thu Oct 15 1992 02:346
    It's the bottom of the ninth and the Bucs are still ahead 2-0.
    
    The obesse wench is beginning to warble!
    
    
    Bill
92.812PFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a dayThu Oct 15 1992 02:405
    GAWD I hate games like this, wish somebody would hit into a double
    play!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.813PFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a dayThu Oct 15 1992 02:4211
    Bases loaded, nobody out in the ninth, potential tying run on 2nd,
    potential winning run on 1st, and
    
    STAN BELINDA coming in to pitch!!   (8^0*
    
    Why couldn't the ninth have gone easy 1-2-3????
    
    Praying fer a triple play
    
    JaKe
    
92.814hmmmmmMKFSA::LONGI miss Billy the Kid...Thu Oct 15 1992 02:439
    This is the stuff ulsers are made of!
    
    Pendleton leads off with a double...Justice hits one to Lind, of
    Golden Glove fame, and makes his second error of the game! (Nice 
    going JaKe_the_jinx!)...Drabek walks Bream to load the bases.
    See ya Doug.  In comes Stan the man Belinda.
    
    Bill
    
92.815LUDWIG::GARRYDALLAS COWBOYS ARE BACKThu Oct 15 1992 02:562
    Pirates blew it ..
    Braves win 3-2..
92.816(8^(* (8^(* (8^(*PFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a dayThu Oct 15 1992 02:5715
92.817ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Thu Oct 15 1992 02:5811
    Fly ball to LF scores Pendleton. Walk to load them up. Hunter flies out
    to Lind. Cabrera singles on a 2-1 count. Justice and Bream score.
    Braves win game 3-2, series 4-3.
    
    JaKe believe it or not I feel for you. Real great comeback, real tough
    way to lose. Phenomenal series that both teams deserved to win.
    Remeber I root for a team that from 1985 to 1990 won only 2 divisions
    and 1 WS title when it could have been many more.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.818ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Thu Oct 15 1992 02:598
    re: .816
    
    JaKe, both NL teams would have had the same problem against Toronto, a
    bull pen that is questionable. The problem was not so much Belinda as
    leaving Drabek in for the 9th - yeah second guessing is easy.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.819PFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a dayThu Oct 15 1992 03:028
    I just cain't f__king believe it.
    
    <expletives deleted>
    
    headed for a real high bridge
    
    JaKe
    
92.820Opps...MKFSA::LONGI miss Billy the Kid...Thu Oct 15 1992 03:028
    About that fat lady......
    
    I think she must be Mrs October_NOT!  Another case of noting too soon!
    I said earlier in this note what Mr October_NOT would have to do too 
    get off of my sh$t list.  In my opinion he fell decidedly short!
    
    
    Bill
92.821MKFSA::LONGI miss Billy the Kid...Thu Oct 15 1992 03:035
    re: the bridge
    
    See yunz there!
    
    Bill
92.822Smoltz got MVP, Go Blue JaysACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Thu Oct 15 1992 03:046
    Don't knock Bonds too much. He performed very well in games 5 and 6,
    and did not have that much chance to do anything in game 7. Van Slyke
    though had chances in game 7 to blow this wide open.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.823Shades of '86 Series!!SCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesThu Oct 15 1992 10:553
    Lind = Buckner
    Belinda = Stanley  
                                     Denny
92.824What a finnish!!! True classic!!!AKOCOA::PETERSONShemp: The forgotten stoogeThu Oct 15 1992 11:001
    
92.825CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicThu Oct 15 1992 11:558
THE BRAVES WIN THE PENNANT!  THE BRAVES WIN THE PENNANT!  THE BRAVES WIN THE
PENNANT!


(sorry, couldn't help myself)


'Saw
92.826MSBCS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrThu Oct 15 1992 11:5610
 
    >>  -< What a finnish!!! True classic!!! >-
    
     Obviously not a Pirates fan because as a Red Sox fan I know that one 
    had to hurt. I bet there were a whole lot of tear filled beer mugs
    around the Clark Bar last night. Along with a whole lot of "if onlys"
    and "why couldn'ts". And woe be the poor fool who tries to come up 
    with the "bright side". Ain't no bright side when you get your heart
    ripped from your chest like that. 
    
92.827No crying here....AKOCOA::PETERSONShemp: The forgotten stoogeThu Oct 15 1992 12:026
    
    ...You're right. I'm not a Pirates fan, nor a Braves fan, or really
    even a RedSox fan for that matter. Just observed an exciting game
    with a finnish that you don't get too see that often, that's all.
    
    ...Mel
92.828IT STILL SUCKS!!!PFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a dayThu Oct 15 1992 12:0918
    
    >> Obviously not a Pirates fan because as a Red Sox fan I know that one 
    >>had to hurt. I bet there were a whole lot of tear filled beer mugs
    >>around the Clark Bar last night. Along with a whole lot of "if onlys"
    >>and "why couldn'ts". And woe be the poor fool who tries to come up 
    >>with the "bright side". Ain't no bright side when you get your heart
    >>ripped from your chest like that. 
    
    The above paragraph says it all!!
    
    At the start of the bootom of the ninth, I was riding high, and 15
    minutes later, I was at the bottom.
    
    Only reason I didn't take the bridge was I couldn't get close to a
    bridge cause everybody beat me there and traffic was all jammed up.
    
    JaKe
    
92.829MSBCS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrThu Oct 15 1992 12:093
    
     No problem, Mel. Just like I said I bet there weren't no joy
    in Dudville last night.
92.830some reflectionPFSVAX::JACOBAnd I fall down 3 times a dayThu Oct 15 1992 12:0948
As I sit here this morning, at the breakfast table with my coffee, reflect-
ing on last night's game, I still feel like crap.  2-0 into the bottom of the 
ninth and they put in Stan Balinda.  Chripes, I woulda put my dead grand-
mother in there long before I woulda put Belinda in there.  The guy barely
knows the meaning of "Save", and "blown save" is at the top of his literary
knowledge.  When they brought Belinda in there, it conditioned me to start
feeling lousy, cause I saw it coming.

I guess I should be glad that the Bucs just made it to the LCS for the third
year in a row, but I'm sorta getting to know how Minnesota Vikings fans felt
under Bud Grant, always a bridesmaid, never a bride.

I should be glad cause this team, according to the 4 billion publications
that predict who will win and who will lose in Major League Baseball, wasn't
supposed to finish within sight of first place, and that's the third year
in a row they weren't supposed to be playing in the post season.  God
only knows where this team will finish nexted year, with the sure loss of
Barry "Wah Wah" Bonds, and the possible loss of Drabek and Lind. I am sure,
however, that Jim Leyland will field a team that is exciting and 
competitive.  Maybe if I say that enough time, I'll believe it in my heart, 
too. 

two of the three runs in the ninth were unearned, with Jose Lind making the
error in the ninth that let the lifeblood flow from the 1992 Pirates. Lind
makes that play and Toronto would be visiting Pittsburgh this weekend.

It was sort of fitting that Sid Bream scored the winning run lasted night.
Sid has done pretty good making the Pirates remember that he offered to take
LESS money than Atlanta had offered him, if they'd keep him in Pittsburgh for
a two year contract.  Over the course of those two years, he's made them 
remember him in the 2 LCS' series, with a game winning homer lasted year, 
and a good game earlier in the LCS this year, and even though he's had 5 knee
operations, he was just fast enough to beat Barry Bonds' last throw as a 
Pittsburgh Pirate, and the look on his face as he lay there at home plate
after the safe sign was given, was pure ecstacy.  I'm happy for Sid, he was
always a class ball player when he was here in Pittsburgh, and I'm sure he's
carried that on in Atlanta.

I guess I cain stop worrying about this weekend, I'm on call and was wonder-
ing how I'd see the games if I have to work, now I might watch the games, and
I might not, it doesn't hold much for me at the moment.

Well, I gotta go step on a scale and see where the tonnage weighs in at

More later

JaKe

92.831CUPMK::DEVLINJe voudrais boire quelque chose.Thu Oct 15 1992 12:146
    Hey - I don't think Mel was talking about the game.  He must have been
    watching some scandanavian movie - he did say "what a finnish"!
    
    Many ;-)'s
    
    JD
92.832CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicThu Oct 15 1992 12:1816
>    At the start of the bootom of the ninth, I was riding high, and 15
>    minutes later, I was at the bottom.
    
Jake,

I hear ya bud.  I went to bed after the 7th, figuring that the Pirates
had it wrapped.  I didn't really care WHO won, I just want an NL team
to beat the Jays.


All I could think of was the 1951 Playoff game with Bobby Thompson's HR
when I heard the news on the radio.  Must've been one exciting game!


'Saw    

92.833Heartbreak, rationalization, and a cathartic diatribeNAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Oct 15 1992 12:2643
               
    Wow, wow, wow.  Absolutely unbelievable.  A bright side?  How 'bout
    that a game like that once again shows that when played properly, 
    baseball is the best damn game there is.  Tension on just about every
    pitch from the 6th inning on, and then the dagger in the ninth.  I 
    still have a lot of respect for these Pirates, every one of them, 
    Lind and Belinda included.  The Braves were the best team in the 
    National League in 1992, but the Pirates didn't give in to that reality 
    until the very end, even after being down 3-1.
    
    You can't blame Leyland for bringing in Belinda.  Drabek was finished,
    gassed.  He had the chance to work out of it himself, but when you
    throw four straight balls that aren't even close to load the bases, the 
    manager doesn't need a sign from God to know it's time.  But it was
    still a hell of a game he pitched when the Pirates needed it.
    
    It turns out that the Pirates' failure to plate an extra insurance run
    or two in many opportunities to do so really cost them.  Jeff Reardon 
    seemed ready and willing in the 9th, with even Lind taking him deep to 
    the wall, but it was not to be.  But, on the other hand, until the 9th 
    the Braves also didn't take advantage of even more promising situations.
    
    I only need to get one thing off my chest after screaming at the
    television the last four innings and I'll take all the requisite heat
    for bringing it up in here: how much smaller does the bleepin' strike
    zone have to get in tight late-game situations before they just decide
    to put the damn ball on a tee?!  Just about the whole park thought that
    Drabek had Pendleton struck out in the 6th and Gant in the 7th (on a
    monster curve ball) with runners all over the place, and fortunately
    Drabek was able to escape those jams anyway.  But when Stan Belinda
    put two fastballs right down the middle at the knees to Berryhill in
    the pivotal at-bat of the ninth (the one that put the winning run in 
    scoring position), I sensed that it was all over.  The second pitch on 
    3-1 was an automatic call; Berryhill taking all the way with the pitch 
    right in there, where the umpire isn't even forced with the tough 
    decision to ring the batter up.  There were other calls that obviously 
    went both ways in a much larger strike zone in less important 
    situations, but there's no doubt in my mind that substitute home-plate 
    umpire Randy Marsh was choking on his own adrenaline on the tough calls.  
    That's why I can hardly blame Belinda for what eventually happened.
    
    glenn
    
92.834How did Neon Deion DO last night, He was On Deck ?RUNAWY::CBULLS::MBROOKSThu Oct 15 1992 12:278
    I cant believe I shut the game off... OF course atlanta fans owe me.
    I was flipping channels (sorry buc fans I wanted atlanta).  Bases
    Loaded NO OUTS... Im think alright at least tie it up on a long sac
    fly...NO A LINE DRIVE DOUBLE TO THE 3rd BASEMAN NO SCORE.. Again
    latter in the game s flip back and Braves have a lead off double...
    and SCORE... NOTHING NILCH... I gave up and shut the game off....
    Glad I missed it but am Pissed that I missed it... Now if they can
    just keep it in the states... :-)
92.835MSBCS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrThu Oct 15 1992 12:298
    
               
  >> Wow, wow, wow.  Absolutely unbelievable.  A bright side?  How 'bout
  >> that a game like that once again shows that when played properly, 
  >> baseball is the best damn game there is.  
    
     A big implied "IMO" is assumed.    
    
92.836CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicThu Oct 15 1992 12:3624
|               
|  >> Wow, wow, wow.  Absolutely unbelievable.  A bright side?  How 'bout
|  >> that a game like that once again shows that when played properly, 
|  >> baseball is the best damn game there is.  
|    
|     A big implied "IMO" is assumed.    


C'mon Tommy, I don't care what game is your favorite, I think as a 
sports fan even you would have to conceed that last night's game
had to be one of the MOST exciting examples of Baseball at its
finest.

Right now, I can't think of anything more exciting off the top of my
head, and that includes rugby ;^)


Plus, the fact that it was an NL game, with REAL baseball strategy
adds to that.....


YUP, IMO,
'Saw

92.837CTHQ1::LEARYJackie Sherrill won't STEER ya wrong.Thu Oct 15 1992 12:4340
    My deepest condolensces to the Bucs fans. Simply a heart-wrenching
    loss.  My first thought as soon as Bream slid home safely was "1986".
    Mike Madden wrote an article in the Globe this AM trying to describe
    the Pirates locker room. He said he's seen it only once before; a
    shocked locker room in the bowels of Shea on a cold October 1986 night.
    Jose Lind crawled up in the fetal position in front of his locker;
    Bob Walk sitting on the training table just staring; Doug Drabek pacing
    back and forth in the shower with his uniform on; Barry Bonds sitting
    in front of his locker shaking his head and staring; many more sobbing;
    Jim Leyland trying to maintain control of his emotions while being
    interviewed by CBS.  I was almost as shocked as in 1986. Man, watching
    those fans in the Clark Bar brought me right back to a similar setting
    in 1986. The same vacant shocked stare. 
    
    I just couldn't believe how things unfolded in the ninth. It was like
    deja vu.  Sure-handed Jose Lind boots a sure out ( "There's a slow
    roller up the line. It goes through Buckner's legs!"). Drabek,
    obviously spent, walking Bream on 4 balls way out of the strike zone
    ( Hello Jim, remember Johnny Mac leaving an obviously panicked Calvin
    Shiraldi in the game). A nervous Belinda throwing a meatball to
    Ron Gant for what I thought at first was a grand slam, still now 2-1
    with 1 out ( ah hello Shiraldi vs Ray Knight in Game 7. Meatball city).
    Now the key. Belinda getting squeezed mightily by the umpire while
    Berryhill looks at balls three and four. Still he walks Berryhill
    who liooked like he needed Depends at the plate ( Ah hello Bob Stanley
    as Mookie weakly fouls off a couple and takes ball 3 which TO ME was
    right down the middle. Then the infamous passed ball/wild pitch.)
    And now Felix-who-the hail-is-he Cabrera lacing a meatball by Belinda
    to left for the shocking win ( "There's a slow roller up the
    line....").  
    My deepest sympathies pIRATE fans. Po' Waugamain, hisself both
    a Red Sox and Pirate fan having to suffer through this twice.
    Now Red Sox and Pirate fans share a sorrowful kinship.  I'll never
    forget those long faces in the Clark Bar, just as I'll never forget
    all our long faces in 1986.
    
    Whew
    MikeL
    
    
92.838JMHOMSBCS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrThu Oct 15 1992 12:5323

 >> C'mon Tommy, I don't care what game is your favorite, I think as a 
 >> sports fan even you would have to conceed that last night's game
 >> had to be one of the MOST exciting examples of Baseball at its
 >> finest.

    Didn't say it wasn't "baseball at it's finest" even though an error
    played a huge part in the final outcome. I just don't think baseball
    is "the best damn game there is" and I know alot of other people
    don't either. 
    
 >> Right now, I can't think of anything more exciting off the top of my
 >> head, and that includes rugby ;^)

    Try Kentucky vs. Duke in triple OT on for size.
    
    BTW - when I said, "woe be to anyone who tries to find the bright side"
          I meant anyone in the Clark Bar. I'm sure there wasn't a single 
          person in there going, "Well, at least it was exciting baseball."
          

    
92.839SCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesThu Oct 15 1992 13:092
       Brooksie, Neon struck out!
                                Denny
92.840:-(WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_MGEORGE GET A U HAULThu Oct 15 1992 13:165
    
    
         My condolences to all you Pirate fans. The only thing different
    about this WS and 1986, is that I thoroughly enjoyed 86' as the curse
    of the Bambino struck one more time. 
92.841DYPSS1::ROPERBRoper DTN-433-4336Thu Oct 15 1992 13:1617
    Tommy, you beat me to it!
    
    Last nights game was extremely exciting.  However, IMO,
    baseball is routinely boring.  I know of very few people that even
    watch the playoffs with much interest after the home team has been
    eliminated from the picture. (i.e. - Reds)
    
    Nothing gets my heart beating like college basketball.  As Tommy
    mentioned the Duke - Kentucky game was non-stop action.  104-103 OT. 
    Last second miracle shot.
    
    If it helps the Pirate fans any, I know how you feel.  Now you
    understand a little more how UK fans felt after the Duke game!
    
    Go Braves - Beat Toronto!
    
     - Bob Roper
92.842MCIS2::DHAMELFlower child gone to seedThu Oct 15 1992 13:237
    
    Nothing epitomizes "the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat" more
    than the contrasting faces of the Braves/Pirates and their fans at the 
    end of the game.
    
    Dickstah
    
92.843will wonders never cease?SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Thu Oct 15 1992 13:2544
    
    
    	Well, congrats to the Braves...great game.
    
    	Also I'd like to wish the Braves and Ted Turner a Merry Christmas!
    Who said Christmas never comes in October?
    
    	As a lifelong Buc fan and uprooted Western Pa'er, this has got to
    be one of the lowest moments of my sports life.  Brings back bad 
    memories of '75 and Dave Gusti walking or was that a wild pitch that
    sent the Big Red machine on to Fenway in game 5 at Cincy.
    
    	One has to remember if Lind will ever recover and gain any respect
    from that error?  Anyone remember Dave Moore?  Wasn't he the guy who
    gave up the HR to Henderson on the Sox, then 2 years later, the guy was
    dead.  Never could shake it.  Likewise, Lind will have a real hard time
    living that one down when folks in the steel city are probabaly all
    saying, "Maz would of eaten that grounder up for lunch..."
    
    	To be a great team, you need players to step up and take charge.
    Although the Pirates made a amazing comeback, and Drabek pitched about
    as well as anyone could pitch, they still couldn't deliver when it was
    on the line.  Hindsight is 20-20 at this point, but reguardless if 
    Drabek was struggling or not, I would of left him in given the choices
    in the bullpen.
    
    	In a way I'm glad the Pirates didn't win cause I'd hate for them to
    have gone to the WS and lost to Toronto and be labeled the first team
    to give up the world title to a non-american team.  I'll leave that 
    for Ted Turner.  He deserves it.
    
    	Hey, the Pirates have nothing to be ashamed of.  They gave 100% but
    it just wasn't meant to be.  Lind, arguably the best fielding 2nd
    baseman in baseball boots a ground ball.  Then a guy who has only 10
    at bats the whole season gets the winning hit with 2 out in the bottom
    of the 9th.  Folks, it just wasn't meant to be.  
    
    	Yes, there is a Santa Claus, and yes, Christmas does come in
    October.
    
    	Merry Christams to all, and to all a good night.
    
    
    								bill..g.
92.844CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicThu Oct 15 1992 13:3983
92.845AXIS::ROBICHAUDJackieMo-That'sAllYaGottaKnowThu Oct 15 1992 13:4014
	Glen, Glen, Glen, my erudite friend.  For one billion dollars CBS 
should have as many FANtastic finishes as possible.  Called third strikes 
(even if they are) are not the kind of stuff that make FANtastic finishes.
And after Toronto (a team that nobody in the lower 48 gives a flying fig 
about) got the A.L. crown the thought of a PittsburgH/BlueJaysEh World 
Series sent shivers down the executives of CBS and baseball.  But now we 
have Neon Dieon and Ted&Jane contributing to a WWF like, PhotoOp World 
Series that's going to be a ratings bonanza!

				/Don

	P.S. Will Deion Sanders be the first human being to play in a losing 
	     football game on Sunday and sit the bench in a World Series 
	     game that night?  Only Nike knows for sure.
92.846We're even!!SCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesThu Oct 15 1992 13:435
      The Braves may leave Neon off of the Series roster. Wouldn't surprise
    me.
       So /Don, do you think CBS slipped McSherry a tainted hot-fudge
    sundae?
                                    Denny
92.847MSBCS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrThu Oct 15 1992 13:5719
    
    re Slashman
    
    Thanks for the laughs.
    
    re 'Saw    

    >> Although it is played in a pastoral setting, green grass, open
    >> air, blue sky, and although the motions of the game are fluid and
    >> almost ballet-like, baseball is a game of conquest and territory,
    >> as ruthless in its nature as a lion pulling down an antelope on
    >> the plains of the Serengetti.  
    
       " Baseball as ruthless as lion pulling down an antelope" ? I don't
       think so. George Carlin said it best, "[manly voice] In football the 
       object is to march into the other team's territory and plunge over 
       their goal. [wimpy voice] In baseball we get to go home." Nope base-
       ball ain't some primal struggle. It's physical Yahtzee.
    
92.848CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicThu Oct 15 1992 14:009
>       Nope base-
>       ball ain't some primal struggle. It's physical Yahtzee.


Tell that to the Pittsburgh fans this morning ;^)

I'm not talking about the physical portion of it, I'm on a more cerebral
plain....   8^)    

92.850AXIS::ROBICHAUDJackieMo-That'sAllYaGottaKnowThu Oct 15 1992 14:134
    	'Jes telling it like it is Tommy.  The lone voice of sanity
    in a sea of gushing tributes to FanTasTikBall.
    
    				/Don
92.851NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Oct 15 1992 14:1424
                        
    I didn't mean to start an argument over which sport is best. 
    Obviously my comment is just an opinion, but one that I feel very
    strongly about.  Only in baseball do you have well-defined, clear,
    one-on-one confrontations in the clutch where there's nowhere for 
    the primary combatants to hide, and where each of those confrontations 
    is subject to continuous scrutiny and debate during and after the fact.  
    There were a dozen or more plays in last night's game that could be (in 
    my case painfully) re-hashed over and over again.  Barry Bonds coming 
    through (yes, I said coming through; he hit the ball on the screws in 
    two of the three chances Atlanta gave him) in the 8th inning with a 
    lead-off single but forced in a close play at second because Jim 
    Leyland decided not to move him along.  Bonds scores on the subsequent 
    double by King; the slower Merced doesn't.  Every at-bat for each team 
    in each inning from the sixth on, with the possible exception of the 
    Braves' 1-2-3 eighth, had some similar dramatic situation in progress.  
    That's 7 of the last 8 at-bats saturated with suspense.
    
    Hey, by other standards like continuous "action" baseball might not be
    as exciting to some, but for sheer drama and prolonged pressure on the
    participants in the spotlight I don't think anything else compares. 
    
    glenn
    
92.852FSBIC::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu Oct 15 1992 14:205
    Glenn's opinion of baseball being the greatest game there is happens to
    be just as valid as anybody's else opinion of their favorite sport
    being the best there is.
    
    John
92.853MSBCS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrThu Oct 15 1992 14:292
    
     That's not exactly news, John.
92.854ACESMK::FRANCUSFrancisco Cabrera, my heroThu Oct 15 1992 14:3219
    
    Memories that were evoked in last nights 9th inning.
    
    Lind's error was reminiscent not of Buckner's gaffe but of Leon
    Durham's error in game 5 of the 1984 NLCS. Cubs leading, Sutcliffe on
    the mound, that error tied the game and after that it was all San
    Diego.
    
    The cameras panning the crowds and the 2 dugouts/field after Bream
    scored the winning run was reminiscent of the 2-3 minutes after game 6
    of the 1986 WS when the announcers said nothing and let the pictures
    tell the story.
    
    Agreed with Glenn, it is these kind of games that make baseball the
    greatest game there is.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
    
92.855MKFSA::LONGI miss Billy the Kid...Thu Oct 15 1992 14:4021
re .833 (Glenn's assessment of Randy Marsh's stikezone)

	I was going to ask the same question in here. I was afraid folks
	would think it was just "sour grapes" so I held off.  But since you 
	brought it up...

	Is there anyone else, who is not a Buc fan, that thought this guy
	was putting the screws to Drabek, and later on Belinda?  I wouldn't
	mind if he was calling them the same both ways, but except for one 
	call against Gant, I was wondering if he maybe had a tomahawk tattoo
	on his right forearm? ;^)

	
	This will go down in the old memory banks as one heck of a fantastic
	finish, though.  Right along with Maz's dinger in the bottom of the 
	ninth to win the series.
		 ^^^

	Unlike TCM, though, the Buc fans can legitimatly say,

	Wait 'til next year! ;^(
92.856Imagine where the Braves would've been sans Francisco?AXIS::ROBICHAUDJackieMo-That'sAllYaGottaKnowThu Oct 15 1992 14:421
    
92.857MSBCS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrThu Oct 15 1992 14:5321
    >> Only in baseball do you have well-defined, clear, one-on-one 
    >> confrontations in the clutch where there's nowhere for the prim-
    >> ary combatants to hide, and where each of those confrontations 
    >> is subject to continuous scrutiny and debate during and after 
    >> the fact.  

       Take out the "only" and I think the above statement could be applied 
       to football, basketball, or boxing. The term "one-on-one" itself is a 
       basketball term. The old luddites still cling to baseball as the ult-
       imate game or whatever but the truth of the matter is that the sport 
       is waning in popularity because the games take too long, there's not 
       enough action, games with real drama are few and far between.

    >> Hey, by other standards like continuous "action" baseball might not
    >> be as exciting to some, but for sheer drama and prolonged pressure on 
    >> the participants in the spotlight I don't think anything else compares. 
    
       I'd still take the closing minutes of a tight NCAA tournament game,
       followed by a good fight between two great boxers followed by a
       great bowl matchup but that's just MHO.    
    
92.858SCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesThu Oct 15 1992 14:563
       I was thinking the same thing about the 'strike-zone' thing lasted
    night Bill. And I was rooting for the Braves.
                                   Denny
92.859Nuke Fonda and TurnerPFSVAX::JACOBAlmost, Damnit, only 'Almost'Thu Oct 15 1992 14:5834
    On the radio this morning here in depressedburgh, er, Pittsburgh, I
    musta heard 30 comparisons of Lind's error lasted night and Buckner's
    gaffe in the '86 series.
    
    The Bucs have had a running feud with Marsh all season long.
    
    Basketball is as exciting as watching a dog walk back and forth on a
    leash. IMHO, that is , fer you Tommy!!  (8^)*
    
    I cain't believe all of the talk on the radio this morning about the
    Bucs possibly signing Bonds.  75% of the people on the radio now want
    to think that something magical will hit Bonds and he'll discover that
    playing for Pittsburgh ain't that bad(which it ain't), and that he'd do
    well to accept a few bucks less and stay here for 5 or 6 more years.
    Mark my words, Bonds has played his last in a Pirate Uniform in the NL.
    I'd like to see him back, as long as I NEVER had to listen to his 9
    year old ego speak.
    
    Drabek MAY be back, he loves playing for Leyland, but the almighty $$$
    will probably take him away from Pittsburgh.
    
    I'd like to think that Leyland's managerial ability will make this
    team, thought they will lose key players this winter, finish very high
    in the NL East nexted year, but I have my doubts if the owners ain't
    willing to part with a few dollars to shore up their weaknesses,
    ESPECIALL"Y THE FREAKIN' BULLPEN!!!!!
    
    Wnoder if there's any openings as far as jump times at the bridge
    yet???
    
    still in a deep freakin state of shock and depression
    
    JaKe
    
92.860CNTROL::CHILDSMillen the best bargin in the NFLThu Oct 15 1992 14:587
well for monetary reasons I was definately rooting for the Braves but I got
to admit that I was amazed at those last two balls to Berryhill. I thought
they were strikes.

mike     

92.861PFSVAX::JACOBAlmost, Damnit, only 'Almost'Thu Oct 15 1992 15:0212
    Ya know, I got as sick of seeing Jane and Ted with their dorky looks
    lasted night, and Ted high-fiving Peanut Breath Carter, as I was sick
    of seeing Bubby Brister's mom every time he so much as farted on the
    field.
    
    Between that and the "chant" that sounded more like a heard of cows
    trying to rectally pass a full grown elephant, and the whole stands
    doing what looked more like a PeeWee Herman imitation than a chop, I
    don't know if I cain stand to watch any WS games from Atlanta.
    
    JaKe
    
92.862ACESMK::FRANCUSFrancisco Cabrera, my heroThu Oct 15 1992 15:0615
    Drabek wants to stay in Pittsburgh so if the Pirates make a reasonably
    competitive offer he probably will. If Bonds stay I will be shocked. On
    the other hand Cone signing with Toronto would not be that big a
    surprise.
    
    re: Pirates.
    
    Bucs were expected to be contend in both 1990 and 1991, 1992 they were
    supposed to be in trouble.
    
    re: Lind - In terms of game situation, not comparable to Buckner's
    error. On an emotional level maybe it is.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.863Cabrera need a bulletPFSVAX::JACOBAlmost, Damnit, only 'Almost'Thu Oct 15 1992 15:0912
    TCM, shove that freakin' p_name!!!!!!   (8^)*
    
    Nexted time I pick ya up, I'll leave ya in the "bad" section of town to
    fend fer youself.
    
    I don't recall ANYONE picking the Bucs to win the division in any of
    the lasted three years.  After their down year in 1989, they was picked
    something like 4th in 1990, and somewhere around 2nd or third lasted
    year, and again about 4th this year.
    
    JaKe
    
92.864CNTROL::CHILDSMillen the best bargin in the NFLThu Oct 15 1992 15:1110
 I don't know, I don't get tire of seeing Jane.....Ted I could do with out
 but women her age that good looking are few and far between....

 Did anyone else do some channel surfing and catch Bobcat on Arsenio?

 Also if you watched the entire game don't miss last night Seinfeld show
 in reruns. It was a classic...

 mike
92.865ACESMK::FRANCUSFrancisco Cabrera, my heroThu Oct 15 1992 15:159
    For 1991 there were plenty who picked the Bucs to finish first.
    Predictions I recall were about a 50/50 split Mets/Pirates.
    
    re: p-name - well 'ya got me to change it for a little while :-)
    
    Too bad p-name bet mano a mano would have been nice.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.866AXIS::ROBICHAUDJackieMo-That'sAllYaGottaKnowThu Oct 15 1992 15:379
	Barry Bonds may end up playing for the WTVS Braves next year.  They 
got the bucks and the exposure.  Think CBS isn't thrilled to be rid of Jim 
Leyland?  Every time they cut to the "manager's reaction" shot, there he 
would be with a cig cuffed in his hand getting ready to take a drag.  This 
forced the cameras to immediately pull away so as not to offend the "I mind 
very much if you smoke" crowd.  I believe Gaston and Cox are politically 
correct non-smokers.

				/Don
92.867Fat b!tch sang to f_____g loud fer mePFSVAX::JACOBAlmost, Damnit, only 'Almost'Thu Oct 15 1992 15:4821
She first appeared, just before the start of the bottom of the ninth,
at the Clark Bar and Grill in Pittsburgh lasted night.  Everybody thought
she had come to sing WITH them, but 15 minutes later, they heard her singing
TO them. She was fresh off of a crowded bus, carrying riders which nobody 
in Pittsburgh could identify, but with stickers all over the bus that had 
various references to Massachussetts, in general, and Boston, specifically.
Then, the voice started,it was a piercing, high pitched tone of singing 
which caused all of the thousands of panels of glass in all of the buildings 
that make up PPG Place to vibrate just shy of the shattering point.

Though the glass remained strong, the hearts of many in this fair city
shattered as Randy Marsh's arms extended to his sides, hands wide open,
palms down.  What we wouldn't have given lasted night to see Marsh's fist
with thumb extended.  What we wouldn't have given with Berryhill at bat for
a routine ground ball to Bell, and what Bob Prince, late Pirate announcer,
used to call a "Hoover".

My apologies to JD

JaKe

92.868keep it in the states, BravesFRETZ::HEISERevidence that demands a verdictThu Oct 15 1992 15:499
    My condolences Jake.  As a BoSox fan, I can identify (but I was
    rooting for the Braves and was way psyched in the 9th!).

    I think this series, and last night's game, can't hold a candle to last
    year's World Series.  That was baseball at its epitome!

    Every games plays second fiddle to the basketball anyway.

    Mike
92.869PEAKS::WOESTEHOFFThu Oct 15 1992 16:014
  Being a long time Pirate fan, I'd have to say that last night's game
  was the biggest heartbreaker I've ever seen.

	Keith
92.870buana naka pisai ?MSBCS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrThu Oct 15 1992 16:0513
    
     Am I the only one who noticed how everyone just let my main
    man Slasherooni's gad awful "sans Francisco" pun slide by 
    though the stench of rotten egg hangs heavy in the air ?
    
      
     Sometimes I feel like it must appear that I single Mike Heiser 
    out and that's not true. What's more in this case he's not the 
    first person to have said that they want an American team to win 
    it or keep it in the States. That's a sentiment I don't understand 
    at all. Teams win the world series not countries at least not yet.
    I'm rooting for Toronto because I like Cito, Carter, Winfield and 
    the rest of the Jays and I could care less if they came from Fiji.
92.872SCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesThu Oct 15 1992 16:074
        I agree with Tommy. I hope the Braves win, but I've got no problem
    with a Canadian team winning. They support the Jays probably better
    than 90% of the teams in the U.S. get supported.
                             Denny
92.873CTHQ1::LEARYJackie Sherrill won't STEER ya wrong.Thu Oct 15 1992 16:0714
    .855
    Bill et all,
    It is my stated opinion as a Red Sox fan only, not a Pirates or Brave
    fan, that the home plate ump was shrinking that strike zone for both
    Drabek and Belinda. He was brutal. Berryhill's AB in particular.
    
    And TCM, your analysis of Lind's error being equated with Buckner's
    on an emotional level is what I meant. Obviously the situation was
    different.
    
    
    JMHO
    MikeL
    
92.874Modified 92.816 replyOURGNG::RIGGENThe worst 4-2 team in the NFLThu Oct 15 1992 16:0821
              <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 92.816              Pittsburgh Pirates *OFFICIALLY*              816 of 869
PFSVAX::JACOB "And I fall down 3 times a day"        15 lines  14-OCT-1992 23:57
                             -< (8^(* (8^(* (8^(* >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    The Bucs lose as Sid Bream slide home with the winning run in the
    ninth, final score 3-2.
    
    What the hell is Leyland doing with Stan(I cain't hold a lead) Belinda
    in there for the ninth????????
    
    Sunovabich
    
    despondently
    
    JaKe
    
    
92.875NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Oct 15 1992 16:0949
                      
    >   Take out the "only" and I think the above statement could be applied 
    >   to football, basketball, or boxing. The term "one-on-one" itself is a 
    >   basketball term. The old luddites still cling to baseball as the ult-
    >   imate game or whatever but the truth of the matter is that the sport 
    >   is waning in popularity because the games take too long, there's not 
    >   enough action, games with real drama are few and far between.
    
    Boxing I'll give you as far as mano-a-mano drama goes, but no game
    has sunk so low as professional boxing.  Nine out of ten fights can
    hardly even be classified as "sport", much less good sport.  
    
    But what I meant about "one-on-one with nowhere to hide" is that in 
    baseball the game situation chooses its heroes and its goats without 
    mercy, instead of the other way around.  If Chico Lind is feeling the 
    pressure in the field, he can't get out of the way and let another 
    guy take over.  If Stan Belinda absolutely has to throw a strike, it's 
    entirely up to him and everyone watching knows it.  There's no escaping 
    the spotlight.  In basketball or football a team can, at its discretion, 
    go to its money man time and time again if need be, and with the 
    presence of a clock and numerous play options there are usually ways to 
    reduce the risk and the impending pressure of most game situations.  In 
    baseball, the most important situation in the biggest game of the year 
    can still come down to the lowest guy on the team, if it happens to be 
    his turn.  That's exactly what happened last night, and if you're on 
    the right side of the fence I doubt there's anything much sweeter than 
    seeing a rookie like Francisco Cabrera come through under that kind of
    pressure. 
    
    Baseball has endured all challenges and if it's not the most popular
    game in America then it's still the most consistent and enduring.  TV
    ratings have plummeted due to network mismanagement but attendance at
    the gate remains at near-record levels (the current attendance record
    was set in 1991).  Unlike many refined-for-TV sporting events (like the
    NFL changing the rules to reduce the number of plays so that they can
    show more commercials, fercryinoutloud), baseball is still meant to be
    seen in person, so this is a trend that bothers me not in the slightest.
    There aren't many games better than last night's, to be sure, but games
    like that one and last year's entire World Series will still keep 
    people interested and talking about baseball.  On the other hand, I
    can't think of more than a handful of NBA or NFL playoff games or
    series (especially Super Bowls) in recent memory that have been much 
    to write home about, and I think the main reason for that is baseball's 
    inherent unpredictability in a short series.  (Of course I agree with 
    you on NCAA sports, which I much prefer to their professional 
    counterparts, but that's another matter).
    
    glenn
      
92.876MCIS2::DHAMELFlower child gone to seedThu Oct 15 1992 16:117
    
    Good essay back there, 'Saw.  But how did a quote from Yogi Berra ever
    find its way into those particularly pithy and picturesque paragraphs
    of premium prose?
    
    Dickstah
    
92.877MCIS2::DHAMELFlower child gone to seedThu Oct 15 1992 16:136
    
    BTW, that stoopid chant and chop have just about driven me to the hurl
    stage.  IMO, naturally.
    
    Dickstah
    
92.878Unfathomable...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Oct 15 1992 16:1914
    
    > BTW, that stoopid chant and chop have just about driven me to the hurl
    > stage.  IMO, naturally.
    
    Of course, as Sean McDonough so sarcastically pointed out, a hell of a
    lot of the chanters and choppers packed up and left early last night.  
    Maybe Tommy's right about the boredom factor taking over for many fans.  
    With the Braves threatening to score in every inning from the fifth on 
    in a close game, this is just something that I don't and never will 
    understand.  You've made the investment in time and money, it's evident 
    that the greatest moments in sports come at the end of the game; why 
    bother even showing up at all then?
    
    glenn
92.879agreed. I've sat through 40 point blowoutsCNTROL::CHILDSMillen the best bargin in the NFLThu Oct 15 1992 16:2215
    
>    Of course, as Sean McDonough so sarcastically pointed out, a hell of a
>    lot of the chanters and choppers packed up and left early last night.  
>    Maybe Tommy's right about the boredom factor taking over for many fans.  
>    With the Braves threatening to score in every inning from the fifth on 
>    in a close game, this is just something that I don't and never will 
>    understand.  You've made the investment in time and money, it's evident 
>    that the greatest moments in sports come at the end of the game; why 
>    bother even showing up at all then?
    
 
 Maybe their kids don't have nice flattops like yours, Glenn and they got 
 tired of holding their beers.......

 mike
92.880CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicThu Oct 15 1992 16:2710
>    Good essay back there, 'Saw.  But how did a quote from Yogi Berra ever
>    find its way into those particularly pithy and picturesque paragraphs
>    of premium prose?
    
Sometimes Universal Truths are best stated in plain and simple terms,
and Yogi couldn't have said it any better than he did.....


'Saw    

92.881CSC32::M_MACGREGORThu Oct 15 1992 16:3419
    
    As an outsider to the game, a fan of the sport with no team until
    Nov 17th, I had predicted a Pirates series, but was rooting for
    Atlanta (have to pick someone 8^)
    
    Over the last 3 innings or so, I noticed that the strike zone was
    shrinking for both sides.  However, it was more noticable when the
    Pirates were in the field because the Pirate hitters were connecting
    on the first couple of pitches, while the Atlanta pitchers waited 
    the count out.
    
    I've always noted that balls and strikes seem arbitrary.  Perhaps it
    is the angle of the camera, but I saw perhaps 10 "balls" last night
    that I thought were strikes and that was both ways.
    
    Great exciting finish, heres to hoping that the series will be 7 games
    of this excitement.
    
    marc
92.882SCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesThu Oct 15 1992 16:343
       It's still not as bad as when FSU does the 'stupid chant'. They do
    it the entire game. I turn the sound off.
                                Denny
92.883ACESMK::FRANCUSFrancisco Cabrera, my heroThu Oct 15 1992 16:439
    
    re: Lind
    
    Q for Bucco fans. Did you get the feeling after that error that the
    game would be lost? Reason I ask is that at the time Bucs still
    appeared to be in control of the game, unlike with Durham or Buckner.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.884MSBCS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrThu Oct 15 1992 16:555
    
    re .878
    
    It wasn't boredom that caused those folks to leave early, it was
    stupidity.
92.885MKFSA::LONGI miss Billy the Kid...Thu Oct 15 1992 17:0314
>    Q for Bucco fans. Did you get the feeling after that error that the
>    game would be lost? Reason I ask is that at the time Bucs still
>    appeared to be in control of the game, unlike with Durham or Buckner.


	a. No, at that point I was just mad at JaKe because he had just 
	entered the note regarding Lind's Golden Glove.  It still seemed
	like the Bucs were in control to me.  The "handwriting on the
	wall" became visible, at least to me, with every shrinking inch 
	of the incredible shrinking strike zone.

	There is no way that I personally fault Lind for the loss. IMHO

	Bill
92.886walk will kill 'yaACESMK::FRANCUSFrancisco Cabrera, my heroThu Oct 15 1992 17:067
    The real killer in the 9th was those 2 walks. They got Justice and
    Bream into scoring position. Remember that after Gant's sac fly Justice
    was still at 2nd, Bream at 1st. After Lind's error, Justice was only on
    1st.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.887managers are underrated in this sport..DECWET::METZGERThu Oct 15 1992 17:1718
The guy I feel the most for is Tim Wakefield. He should have been the
NLCS MVP and woulda been had the buccos held together. There's nothing 
I enjoy more than a good comeback or rookie makes good story.

It's unfathomable to me how the Pirates won the NL East without anybody
in the bullpen that Leyland had enough confidence to go to when it was
obvious Drabeck had lost it at the beginning of the ninth. At least Cox
has Merker, Stanton and Pete Smith.

I wanna see the Braves beat the Jays because I like NL ball better than
AL ball. Even living in AL towns all my life I've come to appreciate the
senior circuit more and more each year....

With a manager like Leyland the Bucs will be back, even without Bonds.

Metz
 
92.888NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Oct 15 1992 17:1720
    
    > Q for Bucco fans. Did you get the feeling after that error that the
    > game would be lost? Reason I ask is that at the time Bucs still
    > appeared to be in control of the game, unlike with Durham or Buckner.
    
    I obviously thought that it could turn out to be big, but I didn't
    really begin to believe that the game was lost until Drabek blew up and
    walked the next batter.  That was the winning run.  I'm really not a 
    believer in bad karma based on something like one error, so the entire 
    inning was one massive stomach churner.  Gant crushes the ball, it's 
    over, no it's caught, we could be out of this yet; Belinda walks 
    Berryhill, it's over again; wait a minute, he gets Hunter, the odds 
    are back in our favor; and then you-know-what.  It wasn't the wholesale 
    two-out collapse that the Red Sox experienced (but then again, with 
    two outs, nobody on, the Red Sox were so much closer to victory than 
    the Pirates were; and the stakes were a little bigger, although the Sox
    did still have "tomorrow").
    
    glenn
    
92.889CTHQ1::LEARYJackie Sherrill won't STEER ya wrong.Thu Oct 15 1992 17:218
    Why wasn't Wakefield in the pen for the ninth?
    Before the walk to Bream, I might have thought Wakefield mighta
    been the guy. After all, his knuckler doesn't rely on that much
    rest. methinks. 
    Oh well, 20/20 hindsight is perfect.
    
    MikeL
    
92.890DECWET::METZGERThu Oct 15 1992 17:2510
He threw 138 pitches the night before. He needed at least 1 days rest
before thinking about throwing again. 

Leyland wouldn't have brought him in with men on base anyway. The danger
of a wild pitch with a knucklerballer is too great.

Didn't Hoyt Wilhelm know the knuckler as a reliever though?

Metz
92.891Eddie Fisher and Moe Drabowsky threw in reliefCTHQ1::LEARYJackie Sherrill won't STEER ya wrong.Thu Oct 15 1992 17:2910
    
    At that point, he had exactly 24.75 hrs rest! 8^).
    
    Jeez, you're right about a possible wild pitch wif a knuckleballer.
    But imagine the further irony if Wakefield was in and HAD thrown
    a wild pitch ( to a similarly portly receiver)?? Egads, mo'
    deja vu!!
    
    MikeL
    
92.892CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicThu Oct 15 1992 17:298
I know Wakefield was unavailable having pitched the day before, but
every other pitcher on their staff should have been.

Why would Leyland go with Belinda, who couldn't save a drowning man on
dry land, when he could have picked any other pitcher, even from amongst
the starters.

I mean, hey, you lose, you go home, so why not pull out all the stops......
92.893AXIS::ROBICHAUDJackieMo-That'sAllYaGottaKnowThu Oct 15 1992 17:3718
92.894ACESMK::FRANCUSFrancisco Cabrera, my heroThu Oct 15 1992 17:398
    I figured that Mason or Walk would come into the game. Belinda was a
    surprise. I guess the question of "why Belinda" will become the
    equivalent of 1975 Red Sox fans asking " why Jim Willoughby" - I think
    that was the pitcher Zimmer brought in to pitch the 9th inning of game
    7 that year.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.895SCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesThu Oct 15 1992 17:423
       Wasn't Johnson the Sox manager in '75? Hey the Gerbil was bad enough
    on his own. We don't have to blame him for stuff he didn't do!
                                 Denny 8^)
92.896XCALBR::ASHEand I'm bringin Deion &amp; his big bad KThu Oct 15 1992 18:371
    I got /Don's faux attempt at a pun.  Was Brave of him to try it though.
92.897Leyland owns this loss, no one else but him !!QUASER::HUNTERDenvers Line, Maddox, Dan ReevesThu Oct 15 1992 18:469
    Interesting how all feel the strike zone was shrinking last night in
    the late innings.  I really didn't notice anything like that.  In fact,
    I was actually thinking that the UMP was being a bit to easy on the 
    picthers...  Oh well,  we all see things differently...  
    
    BG
    
    P.S.  When it went to the bottom of the ninth,  I KNEW THE BUCCO's
          WOULD CHOKE !!   HA !!   Go Braves !!!!!
92.898PFSVAX::JACOBAlmost, Damnit, only 'Almost'Thu Oct 15 1992 18:5324
    TCM
    
    I sensed the Bucs losing their hold when Leyland brought in Belinda,
    who had a penchant for blowing leads, and letting the games end with a
    HR this year, even though he did have something like 16 saves.
    
    Personally, I woulda brought in Bob Walk.
    
    Somewhere WAY back there, somebody mentioned the Bucs losing to Cincy
    and used Dave Giusti's name.  Actually, in the early '70s, the Bucs
    went into the bottom of the ninth with a lead, and the Reds loaded the
    bases along with tying the score, and the late Bob Moose(who had one
    seriously bodacious wife, who I knew) threw a wild pitch that allowed
    the winning run to score.
    
    Right after the game was over, the local station went to the local
    news.  Well, at the beginning of the news, the top stories are
    previewed, along with a snippet of the weather, and the sports.  The
    local sports reporter, when it came his turn, said, and I quote, "What
    a Shitty way to lose."  The station fired him at the end of the
    newscast and he was never seen in Pittsburgh again.
    
    JaKe
    
92.899re: JaKe's p-nameACESMK::FRANCUSFrancisco Cabrera, my heroThu Oct 15 1992 18:575
    
    Almost only counts in darts, marbles, horseshoes, and hand grenades.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.900RAVEN1::B_ADAMSF.A.R's = P.D.Q!Thu Oct 15 1992 19:077
    
    	I *hate* the Braves!  and I have to live down here where all the
    newspaper headlines are always the Braves or the Tigers..ugh@!!
    
    	Go Jays!
    
    B.A.
92.901helpPFSVAX::JACOBAlmost, Damnit, only 'Almost'Thu Oct 15 1992 19:0714
    
    >>Almost only counts in darts, marbles, horseshoes, and hand grenades.
    
    And Nuclear Explosives, too!!!!!  (8^0*
    
    BTW, would anybody be so kind as to clip all the stories about this
    NLCS from today's Globe sports section and send them to me??????
    
    if so, send mail for my address.
    
    thanks,
    
    JaKe
    
92.902ACESMK::FRANCUSFrancisco Cabrera, my heroThu Oct 15 1992 19:108
    JaKe,
    
    I'll send you the stuff.
    
    send me your mail address.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.903NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Oct 15 1992 19:3612
    
    > BTW, would anybody be so kind as to clip all the stories about this
    > NLCS from today's Globe sports section and send them to me??????
    
    Sad, isn't it?  I got home and read about five times as much worth info
    on the games as I got from all news sources while in Pittsburgh.  KDKA
    doesn't even run a postgame sports call-in show.  How do you guys keep
    up with anything?
    
    glenn
    
    
92.904I'll hide it from the Goat_DawgCSTEAM::FARLEYMegabucks Winner WannabeeThu Oct 15 1992 19:3611
    JaKe,
    
    Ya want Da Woostah paper's stuff too?  It's probably all AP stuff
    but hail, with your strike 'n all, it might be better'n nuttin.
    
    ?
    
    I remain,
    willin ta mail it too!
    Kev
    
92.905ACESMK::FRANCUSFrancisco Cabrera, my heroThu Oct 15 1992 19:3913
    JaKe,
    
    I am sure that one of the Atlanta folks will also be happy to
    send you articles. I would guess that they would have the most complete
    coverage.
    
    Saturday's edition of the Boston Globe had an article on how something
    was really missing with the newspapers on strike. How getting a feel
    for the pulse of the city was hard to do without seeing local coverage
    of the NLCS.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.906PFSVAX::JACOBAlmost, Damnit, only 'Almost'Fri Oct 16 1992 00:1811
    There's a lot of moves being made by the union that is locked out/on
    strike/whatefer_the_hell_they_are_doing to buy the paper ala employee
    ownership type of thang.
    
    Personally, I hope it goes thru before Bonds signs somewhere else cause
    I wanna see what Gene Collier has to say.
    
    It's a bitch not having DECENT newspapers.
    
    JaKe
    
92.907SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Fri Oct 16 1992 14:1020
    
    	Hey Jake, that was me that mentioned the '75 Buc's and Dave Gusti.
    I had thought it was Bob Moose, but Gusti's name kept poping in my
    head.  Anyway, that was a really tough loss too.  If the Bucs had come
    away the the title in '75, the Big Red Machine thang would have never
    come off.  But then again, it's the big if.
    
    	re: Lind
    
    	I thought that once Lind had made the error that this was the 
    beginning of the end.  Earlier in the game Lind bobbled a easy ball
    and barely made the putout.  I was thinking when the 9th started that
    none of these guys had been to a WS and they were all probably hoping 
    that the ball would be hit to someone else.  Lind only reinforced my
    view that he was tight and nervous.  If Lind handles the grounder and
    makes the putout, that for the most part stops the Atlanta rally.
    
    
    	bill..g.
    
92.908Moose wasn't mostly to BLAM, it was Giusti...NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Oct 16 1992 14:2222
    > Hey Jake, that was me that mentioned the '75 Buc's and Dave Gusti.
    > I had thought it was Bob Moose, but Gusti's name kept poping in my
    > head.  Anyway, that was a really tough loss too.  If the Bucs had come
    > away the the title in '75, the Big Red Machine thang would have never
    > come off.  But then again, it's the big if.
    
    I remember this game very well, and it was the 1972 NLCS, not 1975. 
    This was also Roberto Clemente's last game.  Somewhat like with Bill
    Buckner, Bob Moose is improperly remembered as the goat of the series
    when as you hinted at, the chief principle in the unraveling was Dave
    Giusti.  The Pirates took a one-run lead into the bottom of the 9th and
    Giusti gave up a *huge* home run to Johnny Bench to tie it, Bench's
    self-described greatest baseball moment.  I think he put a couple more 
    guys on and then Moose was asked to bail him out.  He almost did, but 
    with two outs he uncorked one.  I suspect that over time history will 
    remember Stan Belinda in the same way, even though he was asked to get 
    out of a very difficult bases-loaded, no-out jam working against an 
    umpire who seemingly was petrified. 
    
    glenn
    
92.909GENRAL::WADEFri Oct 16 1992 15:305
    
    	All this sympathy for the Pirates and their fans is really
    	touching.  Try being a Bronco fan!  Deal wif it!
    
    Claybroon  :*)
92.910Worse yet, try begin a Pats fain!!1AXIS::ROBICHAUDJackieMo-That'sAllYaGottaKnowFri Oct 16 1992 15:481
    
92.911MSBCS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrFri Oct 16 1992 15:568
    >> All this sympathy for the Pirates and their fans is really
    >> touching.  Try being a Bronco fan!  Deal wif it!
    
       I agree with Claybroon. This place is beginning to look like 
       the Alan Alda Clinic For The Terminally Sensitive. However,
       there's a small difference between losing a close game in 
       the bottom of the ninth and looking like Ned Beatty in Del-
       iverance every time you make it to the Super Bowl.
92.912RollwardGENRAL::WADEFri Oct 16 1992 16:015
    
    	Hahahahaha!  Thanks for the belly roll Tommy!  Ned Beatty
    	in Deliverance.....CLASSIC!
    
    Claybroon
92.913Johnny Be Good... Especially in the last 2:00QUASER::HUNTERDenvers Line, Maddox, Dan ReevesMon Oct 19 1992 14:177
     And very very fitting...   Hey did ya see Mr. Ed pull out another one 
    yesterday ??   got to be the greatest come back QB ever to play the
    game !!  they showed Johnny on the side lines after Houston scored with
    1:56 left...  You could see it in his eyes that he knew it was all over
    for the Oilers...  Great to watch !!
    
    BG
92.914If they'd mentioned Ned Beatty we'd have a case...NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Oct 23 1992 12:1911
    Sports Illustrated had a nice "good guys lost" piece on the Pirates
    this week.  I burst out laughing when I read one of the lines: "These
    Pirates aren't the Denver Broncos, who waste our time getting waxed in
    the Super Bowl every other year".
    
    When are these national publications gonna quit stealing our material
    here in SPORTS!?
    
    glenn
    
92.915CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicFri Oct 23 1992 12:3014
>    When are these national publications gonna quit stealing our material
>    here in SPORTS!?
    
I've always said that one of the neatest things to do would be to
pick a representative sampling of SPORTS noters (and now that The Turk
has cut into our midst so deeply that job would be easy) and to
televise our forum like they do for The Sportswriters.

Aside from the occasional casual references to a johnson covered with
warm Cheez-Wiz, it'd be highly entertaining for the audience!


'Saw    

92.916I cain just see Kev sittin' wif a stogie hangin' out his mouthCTHQ1::MCCULLOUGHMelanie's formula - $70/caseFri Oct 23 1992 12:353
re -1

Excellent idea.  I just don't know if I could handle the cee-gar smoke.  8^)
92.917CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicFri Oct 23 1992 12:3710
>Excellent idea.  I just don't know if I could handle the cee-gar smoke.  8^)


RE Kev:

Yeah, wif his glasses he looks like Bill Guass(?)... I mean, Kev really
looks like one o' dem Sportswriters...


'Saw
92.918CSC32::SALZERFri Oct 23 1992 22:1411
    What's the show on ESPN?  Shapp Talk? Where you get a guy from 
    Philly and a guy from NY and you get a eastern view of 
    sports in general.  This article in SI seems to have that
    same slant.  It's a cheap shot at one team's expense to
    try and elevate another team. What's the bottom line?
    Pburgh is sitting at home watching the World Championship
    because they lost.  Ironically it was team from the West
    that beat them.  
    
    BoB
    
92.919CAMONE::WAYWe're the dance band on the TitanicMon Oct 26 1992 12:2223
>    What's the show on ESPN?  Shapp Talk? Where you get a guy from 
>    Philly and a guy from NY and you get a eastern view of 
>    sports in general.  This article in SI seems to have that

NO.  Schapp talk is with Dick Schapp, and a sports figure, and folks call
in.  What I like is a lot of time, some other athlete calls in to talk
to his buddy.


The show you are referring to, I think, is Monday Night Matchup, with
Ron Jaworski, Allie Sherman (former NY Giants head coach) and 
Charlie Steiner(?) from ESPN.

I don't think the show is slanted, in fact, I think they do one of the
best analysis jobs around on the MNF game -- far better than Larry, 
Daryll, and Daryll, in the booth for ABC....

I might not be referring to the show you mean, and I haven't seen the
SI article.....


'Saw    

92.920PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollMon Oct 26 1992 13:455
92.921MSBCS::BRYDIEAccidentally like a martyrMon Oct 26 1992 13:5010
  >    What's the show on ESPN?  Shapp Talk? Where you get a guy from 
  >    Philly and a guy from NY and you get a eastern view of 
  >    sports in general.  This article in SI seems to have that


       I think you mean "The Sports Reporters". I never noticed an 
       eastern bias but then again I'm a native New Englander. Now
       that you mention it though, I can't remember a reporter who 
       came from any further west than Detroit.
    
92.922Yikes! Is this for real? ;-)NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Oct 26 1992 13:5826
    
    
  >  What's the show on ESPN?  Shapp Talk? Where you get a guy from 
  >  Philly and a guy from NY and you get a eastern view of 
  >  sports in general.  This article in SI seems to have that
  >  same slant.
    
    More Western inferiority-complex-driven paranoiac delusions, of the 
    kind we Easterners always hear when a Western team gets "jobbed" 
    in those conspiratorial national college football polls.  The article 
    was nothing like that.  It was completely impartial, documenting the
    pain of losing.  The comment about the Broncos was a *joke*, commonly
    recognized as such outside of Denver.
    
  >  It's a cheap shot at one team's expense to
  >  try and elevate another team. What's the bottom line?
  >  Pburgh is sitting at home watching the World Championship
  >  because they lost.  Ironically it was team from the West
  >  that beat them.  
    
    Atlanta?  You're cracking me up, BoB.  Oh, I get it, it's the Eastern
    *Division* Media Bias at work...  ;-)
    
    glenn
    
                                         
92.923Trow da bum out!MKFSA::LONGI miss Billy the Kid...Tue Oct 27 1992 20:1813
	Does anyone have the combined stats for the month of October for
	Mr October_NOT?  I'd just like to see how close that prediction I 
	made a while back is.

	I'm sure JaKe won't know since he is the one without newspapers, but
	hopefully one of you packrats might have saved the papers and could
	look this up for me.


	Bill

	p.s.  JaKe, what do folks in the 'burgh use to line the canary cages
	these days?  Must be some real nasty bird cages down that a way. ;^)
92.924PFSVAX::JACOBMets in '93Tue Oct 27 1992 20:207
    Our stock certificates!!
    
    Many (8^)*'s
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.925MKFSA::LONGI miss Billy the Kid...Tue Oct 27 1992 20:2314
>>    Our stock certificates!!
    
>>    Many (8^)*'s
    
    
>>    JaKe



	too funny

	I better go home, my side hurts too much to read any more of this stuff!

	Bill
92.926NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Oct 27 1992 20:3114
    
    >	Does anyone have the combined stats for the month of October for
    >	Mr October_NOT?  I'd just like to see how close that prediction I 
    >	made a while back is.
    
    You mean what did he do this postseason (we already know he stunk the
    last two)?  He hit around .260, 1 double, 1 homer, 5 walks, 1 HBP.
    He did okay, nothing spectacular, but again constantly on base because 
    the Braves wouldn't pitch to him.  There was only one crucial at-bat
    with men on where he was pitched to and didn't come through-- Game 4
    when Stanton came in and blew him away.  I had no real complaints...
    
    glenn
    
92.927Just call me CarnackMKFSA::LONGI miss Billy the Kid...Wed Oct 28 1992 11:2227
	Thanks Glenn,

	This is the reason I asked:


re 92.666 (must be his lucky number)

>>	My prediction for the month:
>>
>>	If Mr October_NOT can bat over .300 with at least 2 homers,
>>	then the Bucs........will......go.......all........the......
>>	WAY!
>>
>>
>>	You heard it here first,
>>
>>
>>	Bill

re 92.926
>	 He hit around .260, 1 double, 1 homer, 5 walks, 1 HBP.



	Good guess, huh?

	Bill
92.928Jeenyus, Bill, pure jeenyus! ;-)NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Oct 28 1992 11:531
    
92.929MKFSA::LONGI miss Billy the Kid...Wed Oct 28 1992 12:023
	Sometimes I even amaze myself!

	Bill
92.930PFSVAX::JACOBMets in '93Thu Oct 29 1992 20:3212
    Jim Leyland was named Manager of the Year for the NL, by the
    SPortswriters of AMerica.  It is the second time Leyland has received
    the honor.
    
    Tim Wakefield got the NL Rookie Pitcher of the year from the Sporting
    News.
    
    Barry Bonds is getting shoved out of town.  Rich Git.
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.931Alou saved the franchiseSALES::THILLFri Oct 30 1992 16:3811
    It's hard to argue with Leyland getting the award. After losing Bonilla
    and trading Smiley, not too many people thought the Bucs would be 
    contendahs, much less a whisker away from the Series.
    
    Just curious, how many votes did Filipe Alou get with the Expos? They
    battled the Bucs well into Sepetember. Considering that some predicted 
    losing 110 games and average attendance of 4 figures, and a move to 
    Florida, IMO the Expos season was just as much, if not more of a surprise 
    that the Pirates' repeat.
    
    Tom
92.932NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Oct 30 1992 17:2216
    
    > Just curious, how many votes did Filipe Alou get with the Expos? They
    > battled the Bucs well into Sepetember. Considering that some predicted 
    > losing 110 games and average attendance of 4 figures, and a move to 
    > Florida, IMO the Expos season was just as much, if not more of a surprise 
    > that the Pirates' repeat.
    
    Alou received 3 first-place votes to Leyland's 20.  Alou did a terrific
    job, but those kind of projections are mega-hype.  People inside
    baseball have been raving about the Expos' talent base for some time
    now (Before the season I predicted them for third place behind New York 
    and Pittsburgh).  110-loss seasons are reserved for the truly woeful 
    and pathetic, like the 1962 New York Mets.  
    
    glenn
    
92.933MKFSA::LONGI miss Billy the Kid...Fri Oct 30 1992 17:224
	I saw the article in the paper, but don't remember how far behind
	he was, but Alou was in second place.

	Bill
92.934Where is John Hendry when 'ya need him? :-)ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Wed Nov 04 1992 19:108
    
    Who managed the Pirates in 1970-1972. There was a listing of managers
    that won 3 division titles in a row. The 1970-1972 Pirates won 3 NL
    East championships in a row. However they were not on the list. Did
    they change managers somewhere in this time frame??
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.935or something like that....SALES::THILLWed Nov 04 1992 19:136
    I think Danny Murtagh was teir manager for part of that timeframe. He
    retiered, only to be brought back to replace Virdon (I think) later
    that year.
    
    Tom 
    
92.936An underappreciated skipper...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Nov 04 1992 19:197
                       
    Murtaugh retired after the Bucs won it all in 1971, and Virdon managed
    in 1972.  Murtaugh didn't come back until 1973 or 1974, and managed the
    Pirates all the way until his death in 1976 off-season.
    
    glenn
    
92.937Danny was one of the best in the 'burghMKFSA::LONGI miss Billy the Kid...Thu Nov 05 1992 13:464
	Wasn't Harry "the hat" Walker in there after Mr Murtaugh?


	Bill
92.938NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Nov 05 1992 13:5110
    
    >	Wasn't Harry "the hat" Walker in there after Mr Murtaugh?
    
    In the 1960s, yeah.  Murtaugh made *two* comebacks with the Bucs.  But
    it was not a Billy Martin-type saga; I don't think he was ever fired.
    I know health problems were part of the reason for the second
    retirement.
    
    glenn
    
92.939Here's the listSA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Thu Nov 05 1992 15:3713
    
    
    	1958-64	Murtaugh
    	  65-66	Harry Walker
    	  67	Walker/Murtaugh
    	  68-69 Larry Shepard (84-73) and Alex Grammas (4-1) in '69
    	  70-71	Murtaugh
    	  72-73	Virdon (67-69) Murtaugh (13-13) in '73
    	  74-76 Murtaugh
    	  77-85 Chuck Tanner
    	  86 ?? Leyland
    
    
92.940PFSVAX::JACOBThe Set Hidden Patrol is Riding aginThu Nov 05 1992 18:587
    
    >>	  77-85 Chuck Tanner
    
    Short of 1979, some of the worst years of my life.
    
    JaKe
    
92.941NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Nov 05 1992 19:4210
    
    >>	  77-85 Chuck Tanner
    >
    > Short of 1979, some of the worst years of my life.
    
    You weren't the infamous drug-sniffing (then rock-breaking) Parrot in a
    previous life, was ya JaKe?
    
    glenn
    
92.942PFSVAX::JACOBThe Set Hidden Patrol is Riding aginThu Nov 05 1992 20:0419
    
    >>You weren't the infamous drug-sniffing (then rock-breaking) Parrot in a
    >>previous life, was ya JaKe?
    
    >>glenn
    
    Nope.
    
    Actually, the guy who was the Parrot was not only doing drugs, but he
    was selling them, and putting the players (see Dave "Snorting right
    field Lines" Parker) in touch with dealers who could supply them with
    whatever quantities they wanted.
    
    Made fer some AWFUL teams, 'specially right after Parker signed his
    HUGE BUCKS contract and then stunk up the joint whilst riding nose
    candy highs around the league.
    
    JaKe
    
92.943CSC32::SALZERWed Nov 18 1992 00:083
    Alex Cole is now a Rocky
    
    BoB
92.944PFSVAX::JACOBBush Cursed??I'd Haiti to think so!!Wed Nov 18 1992 00:124
    Danny Jackson was taken, too.
    
    JaKe
    
92.945greater minds than mine at work...MKFSA::LONGI miss Billy the kid.....Wed Nov 18 1992 11:249
	I know this is like worrying about the barn door after the horse
	is already romping around the countryside, but why would the Pirates
	not protect Alex Cole?  Especially with the almost inevitable loss
	of Mr October_NOT.  Talk about leaving a hole in the outfield.

	This will leave Van Slyke quite a bit of ground to cover!


	Bill
92.946Rockies made some good picks... Surprise !!QUASER::HUNTERDenvers Line, Maddox, Dan ReevesWed Nov 18 1992 12:324
    Well,  Andy is fast but I don't think he can play both positions.
    They'll probably get someone else to play one of them...  ;^)
    
    BG
92.947PFSVAX::JACOBWIll Hillary run the White House??Thu Nov 19 1992 02:3717
    Barry "Wah-Wah" Bonds won the NL MVP today.  He got 18 of the 24 first
    place votes.
                               
    Here in Pittsburgh today, the announcement was made that everybody knew
    beforehand:
    
    The Pirates announced that they cannot compete in the attempt to sign
    Bonds to a new contract.  They said they cannot afford his asking
    price.
    
    Still hoping he blows out a knee or sumthin when he pulls out to aboid
    a child
    and falls off of the sofa
    
    
    JaKe
    
92.948PFSVAX::JACOBWIll Hillary run the White House??Thu Nov 19 1992 19:149
    Former Pirate pitcher Rod Scurry died earlier this month.
    
    Scurry was with the Pirates in the early 80s and his career, which had
    high expectations, faltered because he stayed high.
    
    I don't know the cause of death, but a story on this is in note 35.814.
    
    JaKe
    
92.949MKFSA::LONGlike 2 sparrows in a hurricane...Thu Nov 19 1992 19:4913
	JaKe,

	Since Mr October_NOT is, for all intents and purposes, history
	in the 'burgh,  has there been any talk in the rumor mills about
	the Bucs' plans on filling his spot?

	Any word on Drabek's contract?



	Bill

	p.s.  Better call Stewerts and warn them to order extra Arn.
92.950ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Thu Nov 19 1992 22:314
    Yeah Bucs plan on finishing last!
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.951CELTIK::JACOBBush Cursed???I'd Haiti to think so!!Fri Nov 20 1992 03:4322
    Bucs traded Jose Lind to Kansas CIty fer 2 minor league pitchers.
    
    They also released Vincente Palacios, Gary Varsho, Cecil Espy, and one
    other player whose name escapes me right now.
    
    No word on Drabek, but my personal thoughts are he's history too. 
    Seems to me that Ted Simmons is taking the "bargain basement" approach
    to fielding a team nexted year.
    
    Ya gots Lind, arguably one of the best defensive second basemen in the
    league, who also just won a Gold Glove fer the firsted time, and ya
    lets him go cause he'll make over $2 mil nexted year.  Word had it that
    the Bucs were close to just outright RELEASING him if they got no
    takers on a trade, all to dump his salary.
    
    Looks like mid-80's Burgh ball comoing again to me.  69-93 here we
    come.
    
    (8^(*
    
    JaKe
    
92.952JARETH::YANKOWSKASSmarter than a speeding bulletFri Nov 20 1992 11:537
    re the Lind trade:
    
    Does this mean that Carlos Garcia is likely to be the Bucs' starting 2B
    next year?
    
    
    py
92.953CAUTION: professional salary rathole alertMKFSA::LONGlike 2 sparrows in a hurricane...Fri Nov 20 1992 12:0412
	Sounds like the Bucs are trying the flip-side of the Mucking Fets'
	routine.  (ie. spend less money and get better)  The Fets spend 
	boo-koo bucks every year and just get worse.

	I hate to see Lind go, too, but if all the greedy owners would
	stop paying these outrageous salaries, maybe, just maybe, this
	could return to a sport again.

	Well, back to reality.  As long as the players don't start snortin
	up anything in sight again,  I'll still back da Bucs.

	Bill
92.954PFSVAX::JACOBNewcastle Brown 'll sure smack ya downFri Nov 20 1992 18:4611
    
    >>Does this mean that Carlos Garcia is likely to be the Bucs' starting 2B
    >>next year?
    
    Bingo!!
    
    The fourth player let go yesterday was Roger Mason, who was a mediocre,
    at best, reliever.
    
    JaKe
    
92.955ROYALT::ASHEWhat people do... for money...Tue Dec 01 1992 19:302
    Doug Drabek signed a deal today with the Houston Astros...
    
92.956PFSVAX::JACOBCar Accidents are a pain in the neckTue Dec 01 1992 19:359
    re .955
    
    I guess what they called "'Burgh ball" this year will be called "Barf
    Ball" nexted year.
    
    (8^(*
    
    JaKe
    
92.957The only salary left to cut is Jay Bell's...AXIS::ROBICHAUDAHughAndCryForChangeAtFoxboroWed Dec 02 1992 14:381
    
92.958I don't like the picture on the horizon for PittsburghNAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Dec 02 1992 16:3621
    I don't understand what the Pirates are up to, to tell you the truth. 
    They've already cut more payroll than what it would have taken to sign 
    Bonds, plus a few million to spare.  JaKe may have some other 
    information, but everything I've seen since the end of the season says 
    that, by their own admission, the Pirates have made no serious efforts 
    to retain Bonds.  It seems to me that in a small market like Pittsburgh 
    where attendance will likely drop by half if the team stinks, a 
    franchise player like Bonds might be worth $10M/year.  With the recent
    addition of Tim Wakefield as a partial replacement of Drabek, I think
    the Bucs could still contend with Bonds, but they are sunk without him.
    They might have the worst offense in the NL next year if it weren't for
    expansion.
    
    I'm very worried that this franchise will not be able to withstand
    another 4-5 losing seasons regardless of how low their payroll is, and
    will be the first team since 1971 to hit the road for greener pastures.
    That almost seems like management's intent...
    
    glenn
    
92.959PFSVAX::JACOBCar Accidents are a pain in the neckWed Dec 02 1992 16:4427
    Unfortunately, glenn, the picture is not so bright here in Pittsburgh.
    
    It seems the Bucs are going to try and do what they did in 1990 and
    "contend" for the pennant with a bunch of virtual no-names. 
    Unfortunately, they have no one worth a damn to do just that.
    
    Ted Simmons said lasted night on the news that he feels the Bucs will
    remain "competitive", which to me, means he thinks they'll win 6 or
    more games.
    
    The offer the Bucs gave Drabek was reportedly about the same as the
    Astros offer, but Drabek loved the idea of playing real close to his
    home town in Tex-ass.
    
    The Bucs will continue to poor mouth and not even attempt to sign
    Bonds, which they could probably do with all the money they have laying
    around now.  
    
    Lasted year's salary outlay was $34 million, this year's projected
    outlay is $25 million, more than enuf left over to sign Barry B., but
    they won't.
    
    Getting ready fer a LONGGGGGGbaseball season, and no post-season ball,
    here in Pgh. nexted year
    
    JaKe
    
92.960couldn't happen to a nicer bunch - hehACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Wed Dec 02 1992 22:367
    The newspaper strike in Pittsburgh is pretty much over, the unions
    agreed to contracts. So, now the papers will be back just in time to
    report how the Pirates are decimating their team. Maybe I should get a
    subscription :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.961SCHOOL::RIEUSay Goodbye George!Thu Dec 03 1992 11:473
       They've been decimating the team for a couple years now Craze, but
    they still manage to edge out the Muts!
                                    Denny
92.962Advantage RieuAXIS::ROBICHAUDAHughAndCryForChangeAtFoxboroThu Dec 03 1992 11:531
    
92.963PFSVAX::JACOBCar Accidents are a pain in the neckThu Dec 03 1992 14:209
    slasher, I couldn't agree more.
    
    True, the newspaper strike is effectively over, but the company is
    waiting on some decision from the justice department over whether they
    cain print 2 papers a day, or just one.  The decision is due late this
    month, or early nexted month.  The paper plans to be in production in
    early January, so at least one more month with no paper.
    
    
92.964PFSVAX::JACOBCar Accidents are a pain in the neckThu Dec 03 1992 14:2312
    Barry "Wah-Wah" Bonds negotiations with the New Yuck Yankees have come
    to a standstill, with the "Yanks retracting a 5 year $35 million deal
    bacause Bonds wants a 6 year $42 mil deal.  
    
    I guess Mr. October_NOT is concerned about the financial stability of
    his family in the future or sumthin, the spoiled git.
    
    Maybe he cain have some kind of accident before signing a long term
    guaranteed deal and be worth $42 over the nexted six years!!
    
    JaKe
    
92.965I refuse to get on the DOOMwagon!MKFSA::LONGI survived Hell w/ da OUTLAWS!Thu Dec 03 1992 15:2622
    I'm probably going to take a lot of heat over this, but I'm not totally
    convinced that what the "implied" intention of the Pirate frontoffice 
    is wrong.  It seems to me that they are saying Pgh can not financially 
    support a large 7 figure salary player.  Whether they are blowing
    smoke or not is for the financial-weenies to figure out.
    
    Big $$$ does not nessasarily get a pennant in this league.  The Mets 
    being the perfect example.  The Oakland A's of a few years ago can be
    considered a counter argument.  
    
    I'm just not convinced that you are instantly doomed to the basement
    just because Mr October_NOT is not on the roster.  With a good farm
    system you can keep supplying the major leagues with enough quality
    talent to keep a relatively small market team (like the Bucs) in
    contention.
    
    I recall hearing the same woes been cried when Bonilla moved east,
    Smiley moved on, etc.
    
    Bottom line....wait and see.
    
    Bill 
92.966NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Dec 03 1992 16:089
                       
    It's not just Bonds, though, Bill, it's most of the team this time
    (Bonds, Drabek, Jackson, Lind, Cole, Espy, Varsho, possibly Redus and
    even Bell next).  The last time I saw something like this was in the 
    early 1980s. It might be the smart strategy, maybe the Bucs can rebound, 
    but I can't see it being for a few years, minimum...
    
    glenn
    
92.967ROYALT::ASHEWhat people do... for money...Thu Dec 03 1992 17:281
    You forgot Roger Mason... signed with the Mets...
92.968still not convincedMKFSA::LONGI survived Hell w/ da OUTLAWS!Thu Dec 03 1992 17:2917
    Let's not get carried away here, Glenn.  Jackson and Cole were taken in
    the expansion draft so they hardly apply to the high salary issue.
    
    The way I understand it Bonds was offered a pretty hefty package, but 
    turned it down.  Same goes for Drabek.  Lind was the only out and out
    trade that I've heard about.  News about Varsho, Espy, Redus and Bell
    hasn't made it to New Hampshire yet.
    
    As far as Drabek goes he's not the first free agent this year to get
    offered an identical (supposedly) offer from a team who happens to be
    located in the city where the player lives in the off season.
    
    If the Pirate fron office was WAY (not you Frank) off the mark with 
    their offers , when compared to the going rate is then maybe they
    are "selling out", but I don't think that is the case.
    
    Bill
92.969PFSVAX::JACOBCar Accidents are a pain in the neckThu Dec 03 1992 23:4114
    If the Bucs let Bell get away, they should just go out and forfeit
    everything.
    
    Not that Bell is a franchise player, but they spent the lastd 15 years
    looking for a decent shortstop, ie a decent glove AND bat, and finally
    found one in Bell.  To let him go would definitely qualify them for
    "A$$HOLE MOVE OF THE CENTURY".
    
    As far as Mason goes, I don't think it's much of a loss, the guy had
    problems holding his balsa woodie fer urination, let alone holding a
    lead.  
    
    JaKe
    
92.970last place is knocking at the doorACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Mon Dec 07 1992 01:436
    Barry Bonds signed with the SF Giants. Contract is $43 million over 6
    years. 2 good things about this. The Pirates lost him, the Yankees did
    not sign him.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.971CAMONE::WAYCheez-Whiz, Choice of ChampionsMon Dec 07 1992 11:037
I heard on the trailers for late sports that there might be a hitch.
Anyone know what it might be?

Also, Bonds was thrilled to be playing in his home area.....


'Saw
92.972Bonds stood up by GiantsHBAHBA::HAASGandhi Cactus JuiceMon Dec 07 1992 11:317
The new owner refuses to pay that much for Bonds and so the deal may not
be able to be signed until after the team is sold.

Bonds showed up for a press conference but the Giants pulled a No Show.
What a great way to start a long term contractual relationship.

TTom
92.973Heard on ESPN while half asleepMR4DEC::WENTZELLHypothetical destinationMon Dec 07 1992 11:3914
>The new owner refuses to pay that much for Bonds and so the deal may not
>be able to be signed until after the team is sold.

I thought the owner transfer hadn't officially taken place and it was the OLD 
owners who refuse to pay that much, and as soon as the paperwork for ownership 
transfer goes through, the signing will happen.  That's what I thought I heard 
anyway...  

Scott

PS - Gammons speculated that it was pressure from other owners concerning the 
precendent setting size of the deal that cause the Giants to baulk.

92.974CUPMK::DEVLINThe bill is due for the last 12 years...Mon Dec 07 1992 11:4613
Frow USA Today:

Just when it appeared the signing of 1992's premier free agent by new
owners of the San Francisco Giants was headed for limbo, the contract
was OK'd by Peter Magowan, who heads the group paying $100 million for
the team, and current owner Bob Lurie.

Also, the N.Y. Yankees acquired pitcher Jim Abbot for 3 minor
leaguers:  infielder J.T. "Let It" SNow, pitcher Jerry Neilson "ratings",
and pitcher Russ "T" Springer.


JD
92.975ROYALT::ASHEWhat people do... for money...Mon Dec 07 1992 15:557
    There seemed to be a lot of apathy about the Giants when I was out
    there. Hope signing Bonds doesn't make them go under...
    
    Bonds got his godfather's permission to wear #24... I guess trying
    to get #25 and wear his dad's number wasn't good enough.  Any word
    about Bonds' ego being overrated is gone as far as I'm concern...
    
92.976PFSVAX::JACOBBack to work, still in pain!Tue Dec 08 1992 19:0420
    Ok, I figured out what's going on in the Bucs front offices.
    
    First, there's rumors that Mike "Spanky" Lavalliere will be traded to
    the Giants for Willie McGee.
    
    Also, Ted Simmons has announced that Jay Bell WILL NOT be offered a
    long term contract, and that the team will go to arbitration with him. 
    Bell made ~$850k lasted year, and is expected to get ~$2mil through
    arb.  Simmons has said he is listening to any offer for Bell.
    
    The Bucs are trying to run this team into the ground so they cain knock
    attendance to crap, then have a good excuse to move south, maybe even
    to Tampa Bay, or thereabouts.
    
    Oh well, looks like this next year of baseball will be reminiscent of
    the early to mid '80s, when the Bucs were lucky to win 65 games.
    
    JaKe
    
    
92.977NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Dec 08 1992 19:4910
    
    I read that Ted Simmons apparently either "forgot" or somehow stupidly
    feared that he might get taken up on the offer and didn't even offer
    Barry Bonds arbitration, thereby forfeiting the two #1 draft picks
    they'd receive for his loss.  Can you confirm, JaKe?  The Pirates
    have some real off-the-field management problems, imo, with mass
    turnover in the front office seemingly every year...
    
    glenn
    
92.978PFSVAX::JACOBBack to work, still in pain!Tue Dec 08 1992 21:016
    I haven't heard anything either way on that, glenn.
    
    5th place nexted year
    
    JaKe
    
92.979DUH!SALES::THILLWed Dec 09 1992 14:061
    .977 Sounds like Lou Gorman's disease!
92.980No wayEARRTH::GROVESWed Dec 09 1992 17:299
    .975
    
       I think it is really absurd that the Giants gave Bonds #24. Once the
    number is retired, it should stay retired. Willie should have said
    "NO".
    
      Just my opinion,
    
        Jim
92.981CTHQ::MCCULLOUGHMelanie ate baby food!!!Wed Dec 09 1992 17:395
re: -1

Did Barry Bonds ask for #24, or did Willie volunteer it?

There was only one Willie Mays, but if it was Willie's idea, I can live with it.
92.982PFSVAX::JACOBBack to work, still in pain!Wed Dec 09 1992 18:4127
    =bob=, the way I heard it, Bonds "requested" it in the deal.  Hell, he
    could have had 25, which was his old man's number.
    
glenn
    
It's true.  The Bucs let the two firsted round picks they would have gotten
for losing Bonds to free agency get away.  And it appears it was not a 
mistake.  It was done with intent.  The intent of driving baseball out of
Pittsburgh.

GM Ted Simmons: "We made up our minds that we're going our seperate ways."
                Even though the event of Barry not signing with the Giants
                and accepting our arbitration offer was remote, we didn't
                want to take the chance.  I can't take the chancethat he 
                would say yes to $7 million after all we've done."

The Pirates chose not to offer arbitration to Bonds even after Player Relations 
Committee attorneys strongly advised team president Mark Sauer that the chances
of Bonds returning to Pittsburgh were almost incalculable.

Further proof, IMHO, that the Bucs are just biding their time in Pittsburgh,
and contemplating the possibilities of a move outside of the Pittsburgh area.
Where will they go, Maybe they'll be the second team to be called the Tampa
Bay Bucs.

(8^(*
JaKe
92.983PFSVAX::JACOBBack to work, still in pain!Wed Dec 09 1992 18:4137
Here's the details of Mr. October_NOT's contract with the Giants:

Signing Bonus-          $2.5 Million

Yearly Salaries:
1993--  $4 mil
1994--  $4.75 mil
1995--  $7.75 mil
1996--  $8 mil
1997--  $8.25 mil
1998--  $8.5 mil

$500,000 of each year's salary will be deferred with interest at the prime
rate.  It will be paid from 1999 to 2008.

Bonuses are as follows:
One MVP award--$100,000(chump change in this contract)
2 MVP awards---$250,000
3 MVP awards---$500,000
4 MVP awards---$1 mil

ALSO:

All money is guaranteed.
A no trade provision preventing contract assignment to Montreal or Toronto without Bonds' 
approval.

Mr. Wah-Wah will get a hotel suite on road trips.

Now, instead of just being a uppity spoiled brat, he's a RICH uppity spoiled
brat.

Good riddance, spoiled git.

JaKe


92.984SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Wed Dec 09 1992 19:3215
    
    re: Mays/#24
    
    	I heard that Mays gave the O.K. for Bonds to unretire the number.
    Seems that Barry used to run around in the clubhouse as a little kid
    when his dad played for the Giants and Mays liked/likes the kid...
    
    	For what it's worth.  It would be hard for me to imagine someone
    wearing #21 for the Pirates unless Clemente is found on Gilligan's
    Island with Thurston Howell and the castoways...  Ifin it ever
    happened, this Pirate fan might turn in his black and gold!
    
    
    bill..g.
    
92.985TORREY::MAY_BRjust another maytag salesmanWed Dec 09 1992 19:342
    
    Bonds is MAys' godson.  
92.986PFSVAX::JACOBBack to work, still in pain!Wed Dec 09 1992 20:418
    I still think it's sacreligious fer Bonds to be given Mays #. I don't
    care if Bonds and Mays are found to be illigitimate brothers born to
    Rosanne Barr in a previous life.
    
    JMHO
    
    JaKe
    
92.987agreed!CSTEAM::FARLEYMegabucks Winner WannabeeThu Dec 10 1992 00:171
    
92.988PFSVAX::JACOBPC is not fer METhu Dec 10 1992 10:435
    Reports here in Pgh. this A.M. are that the Bucs have reached agreement
    on a 1 year contract with Alejandro Pena.
    
    JaKe
    
92.989Im not really a BaseBall fan but I dont see the problemRUNAWY::CBULLS::MBROOKSThu Dec 10 1992 11:418
    If I was Mayes and my Godsun was going to play for my ex team Id love
    him to wear my old number.  Not that anyone has for Willie Mayes but
    this will bring back alot of memories and maybe even give Mayes some
    happiness along the way.  Maybe he wants to watch his godson play for
    his team wearing his number.  I dont see why people are frowning down
    on this I think its an honor for both of them, otherwise mayes wouldnt
    have agreed........
    								MaB
92.990MKFSA::LONGchoosy drinkers choose JifThu Dec 10 1992 12:0118
	The problem I have with Bonds wearing Mays' number is the way
	it came about. (Or at least the way the press reported it going down)

	1. Mr October_NOT is signed by a team his father used to play for.

	2. Mr 'O_NOT' turns down the offer to wear his pop's #25.

	3. 'His Ego-ness' then begs his godfather, Mays, to unretire #24

	
	Like this is the only number worthy to be worn by someone with
	the ego big enough to set off another major seismic event over
	on the left coast.

	If that is just the media hype version than it might change my 
	views, but I doubt it.

	Bill
92.991CTHQ::MCCULLOUGHMelanie ate baby food!!!Thu Dec 10 1992 17:3916
Okay MaB

I can handle your regular butchery of the English languge.  I can handle 
your illogical capitalization, your msiplaced punctuation, and your general
lack of readabiliy.

But please, please, please, NEVER misspell the name of my childhood baseball 
hero, Willie MAYS.

Thank you.

=Bob=



8^)
92.992ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Fri Dec 11 1992 01:149
    re: .988 - parade on sunday, NOT!
    
    re: BobM
    
    Nah, your only hero would be someone who sold baby formula that Melanie
    could drink at a cost of less than $70 a week.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.993SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Thu Dec 31 1992 17:4020
    
    
    	Sad reminder here!
    
    	Today, Dec. 31, 1992 is the 20th anniversary of Clemente's tragic
    and sudden death.
    
    	Good article in USA TODAY about 'the great one'.  Even the local
    rag here in Springfield did a big piece on a guy in the city that has
    made his apartment a Clemente shrine (sort of).  Seems the guy met 
    Clemente several times and started collecting Clemente stuff.  Right
    now, he has over 3000 pieces of stuff including all 65 baseball cards
    with Clemente on them.  He will be donating his entire stash to some
    group in Puerto Rico for them to put on display.
    
    	Man, 20 years!  Where has the time gone!
    
    
    bill..g.
    
92.994ACESMK::FRANCUSCubs in 93Sun Jan 03 1993 19:364
    SI's year end issue also has a nice article on Clemente.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
92.995More useless old agers coming inPFSVAX::JACOBSTEELERS.vs.Bills, no oil leaksMon Jan 04 1993 20:286
    FWIW,
    
    The Bucs signed Lonnie Smith today.  BFD..
    
    JaKe
    
92.996Bonds as a Giant has a sweet sound to itMETSNY::francusCubs in 93Mon Jan 04 1993 20:337
>>     The Bucs signed Lonnie Smith today.  BFD..
                                           ^^^^^^

Thanks for saving me the trouble.

The Crazy Met
92.997SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Tue Jan 05 1993 15:0921
    
    re: Clemente\'Met
    
    	Thanks for the pointer.  Went out and bought the rag and wasn't
    disappointed in the least at the article!  Thanks again.
    
    	And for all you others, do yourself and read the Clemente piece in
    SI if you want to get a really good picture of what kind of player and
    human being Clemente was.  It is really refreshing to read stuff like
    that seeing that the state of sports today is mostly money, money,
    money!
    
    	It was great look back at Clemente.  Maybe after reading it, some
    of you will know just why we folks from Western Pa. treated Clemente
    and still do, with the greatest admiration known to man.  Not just one
    of the greatest to put on a uniform, but also an amazing 'man' that put
    his pants on one leg at a time.  Good photos too!
    
    
    bill..g.
    
92.998ROYALT::ASHETue Jan 05 1993 16:283
    Can Pirate fans drop DrM a line... you guys have experience with this.
    Lines and bridges and all that...
    
92.999GRANPA::DFAUSTWith every wish,there comes a curseTue Jan 05 1993 17:599
    re: Lonnie Smith
    
    He may not be much anymore, but if I'm not mistaken, he's the only MLB
    player ever to be on 3 different teams to win the World Series, plus he
    came close twice for a 4th win the Braves. He's been a winner wherever
    he goes.
    
    Dennis Faust
    
92.1000.1000!!!!!!PFSVAX::JACOBSTEELERS.vs.Bills, no oil leaksTue Jan 05 1993 18:4610
    re.999
    
    Well, by the way the Bucs front office has decimated this team since
    the season ended, he won't make it to the WS with the Bucs this year,
    that's fer sure.
    
    BTW, the deal is supposedly worth $1mil + $500k in incentives.
    
    JaKe