Conference 7.286::sports_91

>    Speculation on the next coach ???    Anybody but Lou Holtz, for
>    starters.   

How about Zorich's mom? ;-)

I, for one, will miss Buddy. I don't think his chances of landing with
another team are very good, considering he made overt effort to p*ss off
almost every other coach and owner. I agree with the opinion that
there'll be a lot of changes in Philadelphia.

To Buddy's credit, he unified the team. To his discredit he did not focus
that on his stated goal - Superbowl in 5 years/'91 - but instead seemed
to concentrate on the grand theory of us versus them.

TTom

    
    This is great. Braman chose not to re-hire the only guy that could
    possibly bring a title to Philly. This team will self destruct and
    wither into so many parts in the next few years. They'll make the
    Patriots look like Super Bowl contenders.
    
    Buddy will find another head coaching job. Maybe Glen in charger
    central could use a Henning replacement. Buddy rebuilt the program from
    nothing to a playoff team. He brought a QB that was little more than an
    athelete and made him into one of the most exciting players in the NFL
    (it's not buddy's fault that Randal chokes during the playoffs) but you
    don't fire the superstar, you fire the coach.
    
    Metz
    

    Hot off the tube...Eagles new coach will be named tomorrow...

                 Dexter Manley!

    B.A.

    The new Eagles coach is offensive coordinator Rich Kotite.
    
    Dennis
    

    That sure was fast.   Quick work, Norman.
    
    Interesting choice.  Cunningham and the offense are safe now.   It's
    the Eagles defense that is now a question mark.  Keeping Jeff Fisher
    might be what's needed to keep most of it intact.  At least from a
    technical standpoint.
    
    That's what this announcement means.  The "brain" core of the team is
    intact.  Now what about the heart ???
    
    Should be interesting.
    
    Bob Hunt

     Re:.1 your reply brings a new low to any note I have ever read in
    sports. Zorich's mom died sometime after N.D. game against Col.
    Not even a smiley face can save that kind of remark. You must really
    feel proud about it huh.. You must be a real blast at wakes and
    funerals.  I can't believe what you wrote. This is a new low
    here in the sports file.

    Haas, you ARE DISGUSTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    AND NO GOD DAM SMILEY FACE HERE!

    REK

    I was glad to hear Philly didn't go after Dave Shula. The Dallas brain
    trust stays intact.

    Buddy did what he wanted without any regard for professionalism at times.
    His actions wore thin in ChiTown and now in Philly, getting another
    head coaching job will not be that automatic. I read in yesterdays USA
    Today that Randall said we will learn to live with out him. The Eagle
    players will forget Buddy as fast as they fell in love with him. 

    What does the media in Philly think Buddy leaving, Good or bad for the
    team?

    I don't expect the Eagles to drop at all in the standings. They will be 
    in the playoffs next year unless Randell goes down with injury. I think
    the main reason teams like the Pats and Philly hired coaches so quick is
    because the dead line for annoucing Plan B players has been moved up
    from last year. You have to give a coach enough time to evaluate the
    team roster. I don't know what Tampa Bay is waiting for.

Chuck

    Dallas brain trust...   Hmmm...
    
    naw, ferget it...

    Re:7 BULLSHIT Hawk, its in bad taste no matter how many simley faces
    there are. Zorich called his mother everyday and worship the ground she
    walked on. When she didn't pick him up in CHicage after he got there
    they knew something was up. He is crushed by her death.
    
    I think having a little respect can go a long way. Its clear you have
    very little for other people or else you would understand. Or maybe
    Hawk you thought the swimmer who got drunk in Tampa and ran over and
    killed 2 kids on the sidewalk just had one too many.
    
    REK

    
    REK is right Hawk.  Zorich is probably having a terrible time handling
    what Bob Hunt said about his mother in here.  

    TTom, Bob Hunt I always get those two confused.  Sort like which one is
    Abbot and which one is Costello (I know, Costello is the one who can
    sing).  
    
    
    Bruce

    Whoa, hold on there, fellas ...
    
    Everybody take a deep lungful of oxygen and hold it.    There, now let
    it out.   Whew ...  Good.   Again, deep, deep chestful of air.  
    Alright, exhale.   Whew ...
    
    Everybody settled down now ???   
    
    Good.  Let us now return whatever this discussion was and wherever it
    was going back to a normal level of insanity.   Geez, I know you have
    to be slightly off center to talk about Buddy Ryan and the Eagles in
    the first place but this is looney tunes.
    
    Tom Haas' remark was addressed to *ME*.   I immediately saw what he was
    trying to say and I took *NO* offense from it whatsoever.   Anyone else
    who's got anything to observe about this particular exchange between
    Tom Haas and I is simply a spectator.   Yes, that's what Notes is all
    about but it doesn't relieve anyone from the responsibility of
    respecting other people's communications.
    
    Fact is he never would have said it if I hadn't been talking about
    Notre Dame over in the Notre Dame note.   Fact is the discussion over
    in that note was not even about Zorich's late mother at all but rather
    Notre Dame's possible promotional use of the incident.
    
    So, let's all return to Mother Earth and try and make something good
    happen today.  Besides, there are *FAR* more important issues in this
    world than this one.   This one ain't worth the energy.
    
    Bob Hunt

Good point there Bob.

And I'd even make the observation that the nexted time we all
get together, we all buy each other the soft (or hard) drink
of our choice....

Continue noting folks,
'Saw

    > <<< Note 52.15 by LAGUNA::MAY_BR "What ever happened to Walt Ashe?" >>>
    
    Wow, now that you mentioned it, what DID happen to that guy?
    
    Paradise is not all there in Eagle land.  Keith Jackson wants out of
    Philly with the firing.  He wants the team to make him a plan B or
    else he'll cause enough problems that he forces a trade. 
    
    -Walt (who?)

    Tellya one thing, when a team is all goo-goo eyed about how much
    they luv their haid coach watch out.  The Vikings are in luv with
    Jerry Burns, and *he's* hands down the worst, least productive,
    haid coach in the NFL.
    
    MrT

I think Buddy would bge a good replacement for Burns.

TTom

  If you ask me Ryan being fired, is the best thing that ever happened to
    the Eagles, since the draft of the very valuable Randall Cunningham.
    
    
    COREY

    If their won-loss record improves next year *and* they do well in the
    playoffs, then it's a good move.
    
    If not, it's a step backward.   As many in here know, I thought Buddy
    Ryan was far from an ideal football coach but the man got his players
    to play hard and play well for him.  And they won football games.  Ask
    the world champion New York Giants if they were just a little bit
    relieved to see the Skins bump the Eagles out of the title hunt.
    
    His failure in the playoffs cost him his job.  Other coaches have been
    fired for *MUCH* less than that.
    
    Bob Hunt

It seems Randall Cunningham is receiving criticism for the Eagles playoff
loss and the dismissal of Buddy Ryan. Players have expressed concerns
about Cunningham's attitude, that he padded his stats at the team's
expense and that he accepts no blame for the recent 0-3 playoff record.

This was reported by a Camden newspaper, the Courier-Post.

TTom

    	Buddy Ryan was a true geuius in the Jerry Glanville mold.

> It seems Randall Cunningham is receiving criticism for the Eagles playoff
> loss and the dismissal of Buddy Ryan. Players have expressed concerns
> about Cunningham's attitude, that he padded his stats at the team's
> expense and that he accepts no blame for the recent 0-3 playoff record.
    
    Sounds like the Eagles have a terminal case of headcase-itis.  A new,
    no-nonsense down-to-earth coach is probably just what they need...
    
    glenn
    

    The Eagles remind me a little of the Chicago Bulls.  The Bulls will
    never win until they become the Bulls, and not the Jordans.  The Eagles
    will never win until the become the Eagles, and not the Running
    Randalls.  I also believe theyu'll never win until Randall rushes for
    less tans say 300 yards in a season.
    
    JD
    
    

    re .28
    
    Do you have any numbers to back that up JD ? I think both McMahon (I
    hate him) and Montana would dispute that ....
    
    However, I agree that the Eagles can not expect to win a title with
    Cunningham leading their team in rushing.
    
    re Past Few
    
    It seems that more than a few players (Reggie White's name comes to
    mind) are BLAMing (tm) Cummingham for Ryan's firing. Or at least sayig
    that Cunningham's post-game comments about his benching helped greased
    the skids for Ryan. Moreover that his alleged "I-me" attitude has
    P.O.ed some of his players.
    
    In the National, RC voiced some regrets about the aftermath, and is
    hurt that his taking so much heat for Ryan's canning.
    
    How stupid. Ryan got his butt throughly outcoached for the second year
    in a row. Gibbs did a worse number on him than John Robinson. 
    
    The Eagles are going to bicker their way down to .500 if they aren't
    careful ....

    Any starting quarterback who *wouldn't* complain about being benched in 
    a playoff game ain't worth much in my book.  If the other Eagles think
    that's what got Ryan fired, then so be it...
    
    Plenty of teams have jumped on the shoulders of their quarterback and
    rode him to the title, most notably the 49'ers.  The Eagles shouldn't
    de-emphasize Cunningham; on the contrary Cunningham needs to respond in
    the big games, which he hasn't done.  It'd be a tragic mistake for the
    Eagles to try to constrain Randall.  If they try to take away
    Cunningham's strengths, then they might as well go out and get another
    quarterback.
    
    glenn
     

    Doc,
    
    What's your point this time?  What do McMahon and Montana have in
    common with Runningham??   McMahon was a loud mouthed egomaniac that
    rode the coattails of a great defense to ONE title.  Montana has never
    been an egomaniac, and has instead been a team leader (cooly, I might
    add).  Runningham has always acted as if he's the greatest thang since
    sliced bread.  I've watched him his whole career Doc.  He's an amazing
    athlete, but he still hasn't learned to be patient, or when to NOT run.
    
    The Eagles will never go anywhere until he learns to be a complete team
    leader.  
    
    I also agree with Glenn, any Starting QB who wouldn't complain about
    being benched in the big enchilada should try out for that other
    football league.
    
    JD

    JD you made the comment that Cunningham couldn't rush for 300 yards and
    expect the Iggles to win anything signifigant. I'm very sure that both
    Joe and Jim did just that. 
    
    FWIW, I could never stand McMahon. And perhaps he'd run less if the
    Eagles had a better ground game, but until then you do what you have
    too.
    
    And you're opinion of RC's run-pass judgement is passe. Few would agree
    with you anymore on that issue. But what can we expect from a Jints fan
    .....
    
    And I do agree with the assessment of Montana - but it cracks me up how
    much more people appreicate him now. After that playoff loss to the
    Vikes, most of the North American continent was ready to bury him ...
                        

>    And you're opinion of RC's run-pass judgement is passe. Few would agree
>    with you anymore on that issue. But what can we expect from a Jints fan

All that agreement will go right out the window the first time some
LB blindsides Mr. Runningham and blows out his knee.  

Randall runs a lot, and I still get the feeling his first instinct
when something goes wrong is to run.  That's not gonna make for a
long career....


'Saw

    DOc,
    
    I don't think his judgement is passe at all.  I still think he slips
    into "run first, pass second" mentality way, way too much.  Heck Doc,
    I'd rather have Warren Moon than Randall QBing, to tell ya the troof.
    Once Randall's running stats go way, way down, then we'll see a QB
    worthy of the hype he's been given.   
    
    As for the crack "What can you expect from a Jints Fan", hey Doc, at
    least I've been a fan of the SAME team my whole life, and don't jump
    around as I see fit.  As a Jints fan, I've also had to live and die
    watching Runningham against us, and as Bob Hunt will tell ya, the
    Eagles have *owned* the Jints the last few years.  However, having
    watched every single meeting between the two, its the Eagles defensive
    line that's given us fits, with Runningham providing a few hilites, and
    Byers a few, etc....
    
    Anybody who wrote off Montana or the Niners after losing to the Vikings
    was sure dimwitted.  
    
    JD

Personally I can't wait for the day that Runningham tries that karate kick to 
the head maneuver once too often and a LB picks him off in mid-air and dumps 
him on his head.

I know the NFL dropped that rule on hurdling but I still thought kicking was
illegal.


Metz

IMHO..the eagles are riding a downward spiral into the bottom ranks once again.

 'Saw,
 
 Actually Randall Cunningham, despite all odds, has proven to be very
 durable.  He took over the starting job midway through the 1986 season and
 hasn't missed a start since.  I think he and Marino are the only two
 quarterbacks who can make that claim.
 
 He panic runs a helluva lot less than he did his first few years.  In
 1986, the Eagles gave up an NFL record 106 sacks.  Cunningham was running
 for his life that year.  Eagles' sack totals have come nowhere close to
 that record level since.  Meanwhile his yearly yardage goes up and up.  
 He's definitely running smarter now.
 
 I won't argue with the thesis that he needs to run less in order for the
 Eagles to win more.  In 1989, the Eagles did just that; they clamped down
 on his running and they won 11 games, the most during Ryan's tenure.   The
 Eagles finished in the top 5 teams in rushing that year with Cunningham,
 Keith Byars, and Anthony Toney all over 500 yards rushing apiece.
 
 In my opinion, it doesn't do me a helluva lot of good right now to
 speculate on the Eagles' future.  At this point, the most important thing
 to do is ease into the post-Ryan regime.  If they can weather that storm,
 then it'll be time to worry about player performances.
 
 Fans either love Cunningham or they hate him.   Personally, I'm *still*
 glad he's on my team.  I would not want to face him.   JD, a lifelong
 Jints fan, has stated his opinion that Cunningham is overrated.  He may be
 right but I still think if you ask the Giants who they fear the most, it's
 No. 12 on the Eagles.   He tortures them.   Anyone who can do that can't
 be chopped liver.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Cunningham-bashing can only be attributable, in my opinion, to the
    overanalysis that comes with not winning the big one, a criticism 
    that comes with the territory for 27 starting quarterbacks at the 
    end of every season.  Let's face it, there's more than a few teams 
    with all-around squads no worse than the Eagles' that'd be drooling 
    over a chance to have this guy.
    
    I can't see the criticism over Cunningham's running; at least, as 'Saw
    indicated, until he gets hurt.  If anything, the guy's passing yardage
    and efficiency went up this past year, along with his rushing.  That
    signals an over-dependence on Cunningham to do *everything*, perhaps,
    but that's no fault of his.  As far as I know, Cunningham doesn't
    call the plays.  Maybe it's about time the Eagles got ahold of a real 
    top-notch runner, a la Wilbert Montgomery, and used him once and awhile.
    
    JD, even though I acknowledge that a team like the Giants is much
    better all-around than the Eagles, do you honestly believe that 
    Cunningham wouldn't have been able to do what Simms or Hostetler 
    did this season?  I think he could fill Parcells' defined QB role and
    then some...
    
    glenn
     

    Glenn,
    
    COuld he become part of the team?  COuld he adapt to Parcells
    conservative offensive approach?  Would the Giants have the tendancy to
    let the Runningham show get out of line?  Would the Giants become the
    Eagles?
    
    On defense, the Eagles are pretty damn talented.  On offense, their
    o-line is inferior to the Jints, and the running game not as good - but
    Jackson is better than Bavaro at this point, and the WR's are better
    than the Jints wide-outs.
    
    The talent gap between the two teams isn't as great as you may think.
    
    Simms has had to sacrifice personal glory to run Parcells' offense.
    There was a time when Phil passed for 513 yards in one game, over 400
    in a few others, over 300 in others, over 4000 for a year - and the
    Giants STUNK.  
    
    The man can become part of the team, or the team can become part of the
    man.  In Runningham's case, I think the first applies - he needs to
    become part of the team.  
    
    In team sports, chemistry is extremely important.  Individual talent
    and ego aren't necessarily the most important thing.  
    
    JD

Bob --

No doubt he is durable.  I didn't mean to imply that he wasn't.  

However, as time goes by he will get older (don't we all 8^)) and
one day he'll run and try his RandallHeroics, and get bonked hard.

Unless, as JD says, he assimilates himself into the team more.

I don't like the guy.  But, as a worthy opponent, I RESPECT him....

'Saw

    So, Fran Tarkenton was a lousy QB?

>    So, Fran Tarkenton was a lousy QB?


 	He didn't do much for the Giants did he? The Vikings were loaded
 on both sides of the ball when he was there so I won't say he was lousy.
 I will say that IMO he isn't as good as his stats look at first glance.

 And he shares a mile wide bone with Elway...

 mike

    Tarkenton 'scrambled' - alway looking to pass first, run as a last
    resort.  Much different than Runningham.  
    
    JD

                
    > Tarkenton 'scrambled' - alway looking to pass first, run as a last
    > resort.  Much different than Runningham.  
    
    From what I saw, late in the season and throughout the playoffs the guy
    most likely to tuck the ball away and run with it at the drop of a hat
    was Jeff Hostetler, who did it with great success.  These were high 
    percentage plays, with the possibility of interception removed, and 
    Hostetler converted on a number of them.  Hostetler is now a hero.  No 
    one is claiming that Hostetler is not a team player, or that his 
    personal achievements detracted from his team's efforts.
    
    Again, I think Cunningham could easily fill the quarterback role on 
    such a team that takes some of the pressure off with a running game.  
    He wouldn't have to give up his own rushing ability to do it either; 
    rather, like Hostetler did so effectively, he would augment the team's
    abilities by adding a third element to the pure rush and pass.
    
    As for the specific game against Washington that did the Eagles in, I
    don't rememeber Cunningham doing much rushing at all.  In fact, if
    anything, he was trying to force the ball against a defense that had 
    some of the best pass coverage I saw all year.
    
    So essentially, in the playoffs we had a team in the Giants that went 
    all the way with a QB who mixed limited passing with some timely runs
    versus a team in the Eagles which did little more than fail at passing 
    the ball.  In assigning the credit/blame, the facts of what actually
    happened should be taken into account...
    
    glenn
      

Perhaps I'm biased by Giant blue, but the way I see it is like this:

	Hoss -- tries to pass, runs as a last resort.

	Randy -- gives the pass a fleeting chance, runs like hell.


Of course, a lot of that could be due to the seive-like front line
Cunningham plays behind....

'Saw

    re .33
    
    Saw, from I have seen, it isn't the running QB's that get their
    carrer's shortened. Tarkenton played for 17 years before he broke an
    ankle (and that was on a sack in the pocket). Cunningham hasn't been
    seriously hurt yet. Montana's injury came on a throw, not a hit. Moon
    broke his thumb when he *followed through* on a pass *in the pocket*
    (He shouldn't have even been in the game, but that's another issue). 
    
    And what about the noted scrambler Phil Simms ?
    
    Doc

    re .44
    
    Saw, Cunningham threw for about a 60% clip, 3,500 (?) yards, 30 TD's
    and 112-15 picks.
    
    Woudl somebody put the combined ratings of Simms and Jeff H. in here ?
    
    No doubt about it Saw, you are wearing the blue Ray-Bans.
    
    re JD
    
    I wouldn't give the Iggles Wr's much - if any - edge at all over the
    Giants WR's. I just think the Giants' WR's are underused ...

Stats aren't gonna cut any ice, guys.

I don't care what Randall's stats are, as compared to Simms or anyone
elses.  You can use stats to say anything you want if you use them
right.  Randall's not wearing a ring yet, so all the stats in the
world won't get him one.

True, Fran didn't get hurt, but as JD said, he didn't run to run, he
ran to pass.  And he didn't play against the likes of LT, Bruce Smith,
or Reggie White either.

It's just my gut feel that Randall tends to run way too soon.  Montana
used to be highly mobile, but he'd never run till all the pass options
were gone.

As I said yesterday, I don't particularly like Randall, but damn, I
do respect him.  If he does learn to settle down, and stop trying to
be all of Philly's run offense in addition to being a QB he'd be
even twice as dangerous as he is now....

JMHO,
'Saw

    What does having a ring have to do with being a good/great QB.  Im sure
    there has to be at least one QB out there in the history of the NFL
    that you would consider to be great that does not have a RING.  And
    even if theres not im sure theres a couple 100 backup QB's with Rings
    that cant be mentioned in the same breath with Randall.....1 team out
    of 28 gets the rings.....I guess Jim Kelly Su#&$ as a qb becasue he
    doesnt have a ring.???

>    What does having a ring have to do with being a good/great QB.  Im sure
>    there has to be at least one QB out there in the history of the NFL
>    that you would consider to be great that does not have a RING.  And
>    even if theres not im sure theres a couple 100 backup QB's with Rings
>    that cant be mentioned in the same breath with Randall.....1 team out
>    of 28 gets the rings.....I guess Jim Kelly Su#&$ as a qb becasue he
>    doesnt have a ring.???

Did you read what I said, or did you just read it and suddenly have
this grandious vision of what I meant?

I said Randall is a good QB.  I think he's got a long way to go before
he's GREAT, and I mentioned a couple of things that would help him achieve
that greatness.

And the ring comment was purely a shot at the statistics thing.  It's
a fact that the way people look at things is that you can have the 
greatest stats in the world, but if you don't have a ring it can affect
things like getting into the HoF etc.  I don't particularly agree with
it but it's the way things are.


Kelly's ok, but I wouldn't rank him with Montana or Unitas....

'saw

    I think Tarkenton's in the HoF and he doesn't have any rings.  I'm
    pretty sure OJ Simpson is in the HoF as well, w/o a SB ring.

>    I think Tarkenton's in the HoF and he doesn't have any rings.  I'm
>    pretty sure OJ Simpson is in the HoF as well, w/o a SB ring.

Right.

I recently read an article in the sports page about Simms probably
missing his chance at the HoF because while he got a second ring,
he didn't QB the team.  The article made a connection, which I think
would be there in the mind of the voters, that rings often equals
HoF.

I agree about Fran and OJ.  Also Merlin Olsen is in there, and he
never got a ring.

(I had this wicked cool calendar two years ago that was the HoF calendar.
Every month it had a big color glossy of another HoF player....)  Still
have it at home....

'Saw

    As I've said before and as I've said many times:
    
    You absolutely cannot, Cannot, *CANNOT* objectively measure a group of
    players at a position and say who's the greatest.
    
    For example, with a QB, is it the best stats?  Is it winning multiple
    titles?  In fact, how much of his performance can be separated from his
    supporting cast?  Football is the ultimate team game and it takes all
    the players performing well for a team to win.  The team wins as a
    team, it loses as a team, all personnel are to be credited for a win
    and all personnel are to be blamed for a loss.  Individual stats are
    too-dependent on the team performance for them to truly have much
    meaning.
    
    Or, take for example, Most Valuable Player.  Is it the person who hangs
    up the best numbers?  Is it the best player on a winning team?  Is it
    the person without whom his team would hit rock bottom?  While this
    shouldn't turn into a Bird/Celtics note, using that last standard, you
    can make a case for Bird being the NBA MVP this year because of what
    happened to the Holy Green Sweat Socks (tm) while he was out.
    
    I appreciate Randall Cunningham for his running ability but will argue
    that he wouldn't need to run so much and would thus be more effective
    if he had a better offensive team playing with him.  He can't be blamed
    entirely for the Eagles failure to win the Super Bowl because he is not
    the entire team.  I think he's a terrific QB but has some maturation to
    go through.  I won't get into the question of who is the best QB in
    football because, again, it's a question that cannot be answered.
    
    John 

 With all due respect, JD and others, you guys really haven't offered a
 valid critique of Cunningham's play other than it's not that of a classic
 traditional NFL quarterback.

 Roger Staubach ran like crazy, Otto Graham ran a lot, Bob Griese took off
 and ran from time to time.  All these guys are classic winners and none of
 them are classic pocket passers like Marino or Simms.

 The numbers are there.  Cunningham threw for 30 touchdown passes this
 year.   That's a helluva truckload.   For a while there, he was on track
 for 4,000 yards passing and 1,000 running wich is something no quarterback
 has ever even dreamed of before.   With those passing numbers, it's real
 hard to categorize him as a "run first, pass later" signal caller.  How
 does close to a 4:1 ratio of passing to running yards make him a "run to
 run" player and not a "run to pass" QB ???

 I won't argue with you that he has trouble winning playoff games.   The
 Eagles are 0-3 in the post-season with him at the helm.  That's stark
 and indisputable fact.   But Randall Cunningham got them there.  Faced
 with the alternative of *not* making the playoffs, I'm happy with him.

 It could very well be that the Jints fans are used to seeing the Jints
 defense flush him out of the pocket a lot.  Buffalo did it to him, too. 
 But more often than not, I would say, he wings it after he's on the run. 
 He threw a 95-yard TD from his own end zone against the Bills after they
 flushed him out of the pocket.   Chris Berman called it the best play of
 the year.   It certainly was one of the best.

 As I've said before, it's far easier to critique him than it is to stop
 him.  And the Jints know this all too well.

 And I know all too well what having a ring on your finger means.  It means
 that Jeff Hostetler, a career backup, now gets to be held up as some sort
 of a new prototype player.   All of which must make Phil Simms breathe a
 heavy sigh and wonder just what else he has to do to make his case.
 
 Bob Hunt

bob --

I don't disagree with you.  In fact, if you look at the last paragraph
of John's reply, I feel pretty much that way.

As for Hoss, when the call came, he answered it.  He's a different style
QB than Simms, more mobile.  I'd like to see him get the chance to start.
But for being in the shadow of Simms there are other teams he could have
started for.

For the record, as to Randall, I hope he doesn't mature, becuase if he
does, it's just one more pain in the a__ for the Jints 8^)

'Saw

    So John, where would you rate Vito "Babe" Parilli?
    
    :*)
    
    Lee

    Other than the fact that he was a Patriots player, I really don't
    remember him all that well, so I couldn't rate him anywhere.
    
    John

    
    For anyone who thinks that Randall runs too soon, go back and take a
    look at the first three games the Eagles played last season. The games
    against the Giants, Colts and Cardinals were low scoring games on the
    Eagles part because of Cunningham's reluctance to run. In those games,
    he stood in the pocket and took the hits. When Kotite took the reins
    off of him, the Eagles started winning. He may not be the greatest
    thing since sliced bread, but he is definitely entertaining and
    exciting and makes the Sundays here in Philadelphia alot more
    entertaining during the football season.
    
    Dennis
    

    GLENN,
    
    YOU ARE REALLY REACHING IF YOU ARE COMPARING HOSS WITH RUNNINGHAM. 
    HOSS ISN'T EVEN IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS RUNNINGHAM AS A QB.  YOU ARE
    DOING RUNNINGHAM A DISSERVICE comparing the two (sorry about the
    caps..).
    
    Remember Glenn, Runningham has already been proclaimed *2 years ago* by
    Sports Illustrated and other mags as the prototypical QB of the future. 
    Before Runningham ever proved anything, he was handed top level status.
    
    As far as the SImms/Hoss crack, I believe SImms is the #1 QB, and I
    expect him to start for the Jints.  Unless Hoss improves in his ability
    to pick out secondary receivers, then Phil is still the man.  I do wish
    the Jints used moving pockets a little more with Phil.  Before his knee
    injury he was pretty darn mobile - but he always looked to pass first.
    
    JD

    FIrst guys,  I haven't read one line in here that says Randall is a bad
    QB.  All we infidels are saying is that we don't think Randall is the
    greatest, and we think he runs too much.
    
    Bob Hunt has a classic note:  Randall is responsible for the Eagles
    making the playoffs, buy hey, he's not responsible for the 0-3 record
    in the playoffs.   So which is it?  When the Eagles win, is it Randall
    that wins, but when they lose, its the team, or is it vice-versa???
    
    Take a look at Phil Simms to illustrate this - most 'fans' of football
    have never given Phil any praise, any benefit, any credit for the
    Giants winning with him as QB.  For the stat freaks which abound in
    here and use them as the sole measure, Phil is the top ranked and rated
    QB in NY Giants history, over Charlie COnnerly, YA Title and Fran
    Tarkenton.   However, Phil is generally the man to blam when the JInts
    lose.   Why were the Giants in the SUper Bowl this year?  A big part of
    it was Phil Simms - he did what was asked of him.   For the GOOD of the
    TEAM, and not necessarily himself.  This is where he and others differ
    from Randall, IMO.  Simms and Earhardt and even Parcells have said in
    the past that PHil would love to direct a wide-open, pass-oriented
    offense.  However, the Giants personel and game plan doesn't call for
    that.  Phil could have whined, pouted, complained - which would have
    been easy to do, with effect, in media crazy NY, but he simply sucked
    his PRIDE in and performed.  For the Stat freaks, he was the NFL's top
    rated passer for much of the season this year, and may have ended up
    the top ranked for the NFC (I'm not sure, cuz I don't follow stats too
    closely...)
    
    JD

JD makes a good point.  None of us have said that Randall is a bad
QB.  We've offered our opinions on what we feel would make Randall
a better QB.

As usual in here, we've suffered the slings and arrows of people
going off half cocked, not READING what we've written, people
assuming what we're saying, people comparing apples and oranges,
people dastickticizing away left and right, dogs and cats living
together in sin, rhinos engaging in sex right here in our file....

sheesh!

[many 8^)]

'Saw

    And the Jints showed they could win the SB without Phil Simms.
    
    If Cunningham has a bad day, the Eagles have a bad day.  If Phil Simms
    has a bad day, the Giants put in Hostetler and win.

    So then Mac,
    
    Should Runningham get blamed for losses as well as praised for wins?
    Or should always only be praised??
    
    And all your note proves is that one team is a team, the other is a
    bunch of individuals interested in personal glory, and not team glory.
    
    JD

    If he gets credits for victories, then he should get blamed for losses.
    It can't be "If the Eagles win, it's because of Randall, but if the
    Eagles lose, it's everyone else's fault"
    
    It's either everyone gets the credit and the blame, or Randall gets it
    all.
    
    JD

    This brings up just one lay that I remember....Cunningham gets hit
    by a Giants Linebacker in the upper legs, flys back about six yrds
    lands on his feet regains his balance and throws a TD, I dont remember
    if it was the winning td but for arguments sake if this was thi winning
    TD you wouldnt say it was the extra effort but this one player that 
    gave them the win ??? Just Curious.  I think for the most part you win
    and lose as a team but every so Often you have a player make a play
    that determins the outcome of the game....
    								MaB

    Nope, it's a team game, yep he made a great play, but without the guy
    catching the ball - remember, not only do you have to throw de ball,
    buts ya gotta catch de ball too.   And folks gotta block for him, and
    the defense has gotta hold the other team, and the kicker has to hit
    the extra point.  Randall didn't win that game, the Eagles won that
    game.  
    
    Players can have big influences over the outcome of a game, but teams
    win games and lose games.  
    
    JD

    So are you saying under absoulutely no circumstances do you ever credit
    a football games victory to one outstanding performer....I cant believe
    that.  How about this scenerio, 2 teams play an entire game scoreless
    on the last play of the game the coach has the Field Goal Kicker
    attmept a 58 yrd Field Goal with 2 seconds left...Now if he makes that
    kick you wouldnt credit him with the win.......There are many
    circumstances were I think a victory was all due to a single play or
    player, it is a team sport but credit is giving were credit is due.
    
    And on your comment that a player has to catch the ball, your right he
    does have to catch the ball.  But if im paying a reciever millions of
    dollars to catch a ball and the QB puts the ball in his numbers I
    EXPECT HIM TO CATCH IT.  I dont however expect a QB to get hit by a
    lineBacker bounce off him keep his balance and throw a Touch Down. You
    do see the difference.  That TD was entirely due to second effort by
    Cunningham...If he doesnt keep his balance if he didnt throw the ball
    there wouldnt have been a TD.  I think the fact that cunningham got off
    that pass its much more impressive that the Reciever catching a ball,
    that is what a reciever is suppose to do.

  <<< Note 52.69 by QUASER::JOHNSTON "LegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!" >>>

              ^^

AWWWWWWWWWL RAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTT!!!!!!

I GOT 69!!!!!!

IS THIS A GREAT COUNTRY OR WHAT!?!?!??
I LOVE IT WHEN THAT HAPPENS!!!!

MIKE JN

    
    
> I GOT 69!!!!!!

> IS THIS A GREAT COUNTRY OR WHAT!?!?!??
> I LOVE IT WHEN THAT HAPPENS!!!!
    
    Mike, What the hail you mean *You* got it.  We're discussing TEAM
    EFFORTS here, and your reference is a perfect illustration.
    
    Dickstah
    

    My last comment on this:
    
    I never claimed that Cunningham was a great quarterback, or that
    Hostetler was comparable as an all-around player; nor did I use even
    one statistic to try and prove that any of the above is true.
    
    What I did claim is that while Cunningham has yet to prove that he's
    much more than even a good passer, he's shown that he's a fantastic
    runner, even while being asked by the Eagle coaching staff to produce
    *something* on almost every play.  I fail to see how Cunningham can be
    criticized for not being a team player under the logic that he runs 
    too much, when the result of his runs have been countless first downs 
    and big plays.  I guarantee you that if Randall stops running, his
    effectiveness drops dramatically, so I fail to see how the bashers in
    here have come to the exact opposite conclusion.  Like Bob said, he's
    being criticized entirely for not being conventional, when the 
    conventional pieces of his game are probably his weakest...
    
    Again, if you're asking me to defend Sports Illustrated's or anyone
    else's opinion of Cunningham as the greatest, you're looking at the
    wrong guy, but on the other hand I don't understand how such an
    exciting and relatively productive player has become so unpopular.
    If it's the hype, take it out on the hypester, not the hypee: hell,
    Cunningham's doing what's asked of him and doing it well...
    
    glenn
          

 Okay, so we're all in agreement that the *TEAM* wins the games and the
 *TEAM* loses the games, right ???
 
 45 guys playing for 60 minutes.  Cheer 'em all if they win; blast 'em all
 if they blow it.  I got it, I'm with you, I'm hip, it's cool.
    
 So why then all this fuss over Randall Cunningham ???  If we follow the
 Jints' fans example, we should all just, ho-hum, yawn about him and talk
 about togetherness and unity and team pride and game plans and so on and
 so on ...
 
 Yet it is the Jints' fans who claim that the Eagles won't go anywhere with
 Cunningham at the Eagles' helm.  Why the focus on the individual ???
 
 This much is fact ... over the course of this past season and playoffs,
 the New York Giants played better together as a team compared to the
 Philadelphia Eagles.   Proof is in the results.
 
 Individual blame is basically irelevant to that fact.  
 
 I'm not really sure I'm following what axe you guys are trying to grind.  
 You won.   Enjoy it and get your chin straps buckled on tight for next
 year.  The Jints flopped big time in 1987, the year after their first Supe
 victory.   LT is a year older, Bavaro may very well be done, and you've
 got a "simmering" quarterback controversy worthy of the pre-Everett LA
 Rams.
 
 Bob Hunt

Glenn, he's beat the Giants 5 out of the last 6 times .... nuff said

    Mike,
    
    Did Randall beat the Giants, or did the Eagles beat the Giants???  How
    many defensive TD's have the Eagles scored against the Giants the last
    few years?  I know they got one this year in the win, and what 2 the
    year before in one of the wins.  I don't remember Randall playing 
    defense once.  
    
    Another perfect example - he wins, but the Eagles lose.  
    
    Re:  Bob
    
    You may be right, the JJints might take the gaspipe nexted year, and
    they'll do it as a team.  I'm sure once again either the Eagles or
    Skins will be picked by the experts to win the division.  Only time
    will tell.  What's known is the Jints have two of the last 5 rings.
    
    Any QB controversy will be due to the media and the fans.  Simms should
    be #1, unless Hoss beats him out in pre-season.  
    
    JD
    
    PS  TO some folks, I guess Randall is above criticism....is there a
    jihad in the making...

Guys if it's such a team game then why is there such a dispcrepencies in
the pay? Why don't Qb's only make 500K? With 99.99999 % of offensive plays
ran through the QB it stands to reason that he is without a doubt the most
valuable and reponsible player for victory or defeat on most sunday.

Well JD, while Philly's defense has scored a couple of TD's in a couple
of the wins I would Cunningham has scored TD's in all the wins either with
his arm or running. Due to the mouths of certain Eagle players the Eagles
have no become our most hated rival and the reson I feel you guys are attacking
Cunningham. If you need to find a scapegoat for Philly's playoff losses look
no further than the defensive secondary of Philly which has always had the
luxury of great pressure by the front 7. LA's o-line and Skins o-line have
taken care of them the last two years and exposed the secondary. Our line
did the first game second game no Jumbo, people out of posistion and a coaching
staff and players who read the hype the preceeding the game..

mike

    rew -.1
    
    Don't forget Mike that Cunningham also helped to beat the Giants with
    a 91 yard PUNT that buried the Giants deep in their own end of the
    field, and Philly eventually captialized on it.
    
    RC has schooled the Giants with passing, running, and kicking.
    
    Sounds like jealousy to me too ....
    
    Doc

    
    Yeah Doc, we Giants fans are very jealous of Randall and the way he has
    gone up in flames in the playoffs while we've won a couple of Super
    Bowls.

    Mike,
    
    Pay means nothing.  The glamour positions get the ink and the bucks -
    however, you CANNOT win a super bowl without an offensive line - in my
    book, that's where an offensive team wins or loses.  Look at the Jints
    - they totally revamped their O-line between Super Bowls.  
    
    Re the 91 Yard Punt - Dave Meggett was as much of a goat on that punt
    as Randall was a hero.  Meggett totally misplayed it.
    
    And Doc, first, why would *I* be jealous of Randall CUnningham???  He's
    a football player, and has nothing to do with my life.  He's never
    stoped me from doing anything, he's never been my rival, he's nothing
    but an overhyped QB to me.  And if you mean as a football fan, well
    both Frank and Bruce summed it up - Randall sure has been impressive at
    times, but the bottom line is he hasn't won a big one.  
    
    Now Doc, using the logic you use with say, the Browns or the Celtics,
    wouldn't Randall be a CHOKER???  He's 0-3 when its really counted!!
    Heck, even BERNIE KOSAR has won playoff games!   Think about it Doc.
    
    JD  

    re .82
    
    Bruce what is the **we've** garbage ????
    
    Talk about some wagon jumping - you've shattered all records jumping
    from the West Coast to the East Coast !

    
    Doc,
    
    I've been a Giants fan since I was 4 or 5, always have been, always
    will be.  As I've explained before, I started following the 9ers when I
    moved to the Bay Area.  You, on the other hand, are a fan of teams on
    three coasts (depending on MrT's latest interpretation of coastal
    cities) plus.  
    
    Why you are dumb enough to call others vanes, I'll never know.  But
    then look at some of the teams you've picked.
    
    
    Bruce

    Yeah ! Well my dad can whip your dad on any of the Three Coast's !!!!
    
    :-)

    Hope so, my dad is dead.  8^(

    SET MODE FOOT/INSERT=MOUTH ....

Does anyone know offhand when the Eagles last couple of home games are this
season?

Sunofabitch, I cain't believe it - I'll get to see a real live football game!

:*))))))))))

rick

    Sun Sept 1	at Green Bay	1 EDT
    SUn Sept 8	Phoenix		1 EDT
    Sun Sept 15	at Dallas	1 EDT
    Sun Sept 22	Pittsburgh	1 EDT
    Mon Sept 30	at Washington	9 EDT
    Sun Oct 6	at Tampa Bay	1 EDT
    Sun Oct 13	New Orleans	1 EDT
    Sun Oct 20	Open Date
    Sun Oct 27	San Francisco	1 EST
    Mon Nov 4	NY Giants	9 EST
    Sun Nov 10	at Cleveland	1 EST
    Sun Nov 17	Cincinnati	1 EST
    Sun Nov 24	at Phoenix	4 EST
    Mon Dec 2	at Houston	9 EST
    Sun Dec 8	at NY Giants	1 EST
    Sun Dec 15	Dallas		1 EST
    Sun Dec 22	Washington	4 EST

        <<< Note 52.90 by DCLIB::JHENDRY "John Hendry, DTN 297-2623" >>>

    Sun Sept 1	at Green Bay	1 EDT
    SUn Sept 8	Phoenix		1 EDT
    Sun Sept 15	at Dallas	1 EDT
    Sun Sept 22	Pittsburgh	1 EDT
    Mon Sept 30	at Washington	9 EDT
    Sun Oct 6	at Tampa Bay	1 EDT
    Sun Oct 13	New Orleans	1 EDT
    Sun Oct 20	Open Date
    Sun Oct 27	San Francisco	1 EST
    Mon Nov 4	NY Giants	9 EST
    Sun Nov 10	at Cleveland	1 EST
    Sun Nov 17	Cincinnati	1 EST
    Sun Nov 24	at Phoenix	4 EST
    Mon Dec 2	at Houston	9 EST
    Sun Dec 8	at NY Giants	1 EST
    Sun Dec 15	Dallas		1 EST
    Sun Dec 22	Washington	4 EST

    Can anyone in the N.E. area tell me of anyplace that will be showing
    the Eagles game this Sunday. CBS will air the Jets in all New England
    states. 2 seats needed... myself and my son...
    
    Thanks,
    Lee  nr Worcester, Ma.

Yes, I'm in the N.E. area.  So I can tell you.  Your best bet would be to go to
Philadelphia.  They'll no doubt be showing the game there.  Or since you're in
the western part of the state, you might want to try Wisconsin.

Hope this helps.

j.

    Hey Bob Hunt, condolences on your team loosing the QB.  BTW what was it
    those guys, was it the satelite dish installers, told you about the
    Eagles????   (8^0*   (8^)*
    
    Is this a SB year for them??????????????
    
    
    JaKe
    

       Have the Iggles signed Toni Eassom yet?!!
                                           Denny

 No, the Eagles have not signed Tony Eason.   Thank God.
 
 However, Eagles head coach Rich Kotite did announce that they have
 signed former Jets backup quarterback Pat Ryan to backup Jim McMahon.   
 Ryan's biggest plus is that he knows the offensive system since
 Kotite used to be the Jets' offensive coordinator just two years ago.
 
 It's hard to put the loss of Cunningham into words.  "Stunned" is
 probably the most fitting.    Yes, it's a huge chunk of the offense
 gone poof but it might not be totally devastating.    Perhaps this
 will be a chance to develop a really tough ground game where a real
 running back can lead the team in yards on the ground.
 
 And, McMahon did not look bad in relief of Cunningham.   He put up
 some decent numbers against the Pack.    Hey, he basically took the
 year off lasted year and maybe that gave him the chance to heal from
 all his Bear bruises.    If he's healthy, he just might be able to
 direct a *total* team offensive scheme, one that doesn't depend on a
 single superstar.   Keith Byars, for example, might just have a truly
 monster year ... he tore the Pack apart on Sunday.
 
 Plus, the Eagles' defense completely mauled Green Bay.   Reggie White
 was a one-man terror and made Tony Mandarich look silly.    If the
 Eagles' defense alone can win perhaps 8, maybe 9 games and McMahon
 can put together 2, maybe 3 offensive gems in turn, the Eagles can
 win 10 or 11 and make the playoffs.   I have no illusions ... this
 will be a tough season with Cunningham but it doesn't have to be a
 disaster.
 
 Phoenix on Sunday at The Vet.  A big test as the Cards swept their
 pre-season games and made the Rams look foolish this past Sunday.  
 It's a division game so there's no reason for the Eagles to sit back
 and lick their wounds.   Got to go right at 'em and attack.
 
 Bob Hunt

    You Eagle fans!
    
    Since I had Cunningham on my fantasy team, I will be real anxiously
    wondering who the Eagles are going to sign at QB, since I don't believe
    McMahan can take them through the season. How about keeping us posted?
    
    RC
    

While I've never been as fan of Crandall Runningham(tm), I wouldn't wish
a blown-out knee on anyone.

Crandall did say that when he's back he won't stay in the pocket and he'll
play 'his' game.

One can only wonder if, after tearing two ligaments in the knee, if he'll
regain that mobility....

'Saw

 One small note of bitterness on this Cunningham injury ... the hit he
 took from Bryce Paup that tore up his knee looked like an exact
 replica of the hits that Andre Waters delivers.
 
 Of course, when Waters does it, the lynch mob is out in full force. 
 Penalty flags go flying, announcers froth at the mouth, tapes are
 sent to league headquarters, the free world is doomed and so on ...
 
 Cunningham takes a shot to the knee and not one penalty flag, nothing
 but "<sniff> Oh, too bad for Randall ..." from the broadcast booth,
 and not even a whiff of a scolding from the league.
 
 To the best of my knowledge, Andre Waters has yet to end any
 quarterback's season.  Bryce Paup leads him 1-0 in that category.
 
 Bitter ???   Yeah, just a little.
 
 Bob Hunt

I only saw the replay from one angle, but it looked like it was not
a full force hit.  if it had been Tim Harris going full out, it might well 
have been career ending....

'Saw

    First, this injury will show us waht Runningham is really made of. 
    When he comes back, he might have to suck up his ego a bit and become
    more of a pocket passer.  It might be the best thang for him.  He could
    end up like Ken Stabler - a running QB in college til knees made him
    almost immobile, or he could be like a Phil Simms, who's mobility was
    limited by a knee injury (not as severe as Randall), which made Phil
    even more of a pocket passer than he was.   This may actually be the
    best thang to happen to Philly in a long time.  This team will have to
    learn to win without RUnningham - which will make them BETTER when he
    comes back.  
    
    Even though Philly has had the Jints number in the last few years, I've
    never worried about them, because I've just *Known* that Runningham
    couldn't win in the playoffs all by hisself.
    
    As for Andre Waters - he has no one to blame but hisself.  He nutured
    his own image as a cheap shot artist - he's paying for it now.  Paup's
    hit was perfectly legal, and was unfortunate.  
    
    JD

    I heard they signed Pat Ryan instead

    Bob -
    
    I'm probably the one Giants fan who was less worried about Runningham
    than others.  A one man offense cannot win in the playoffs.  A one-man
    offense can win in the regular season enough to make the playoffs, but
    when the chips are down, I'll take the team-team vs. the one-man team.
    
    Runningham is like pre-Pippen Jordan.  Let 'em score 60-65 points vs.
    ya.  IN the regular season, he'll beat ya, but as teams like the Celts
    proved, ya caint do it alone in the playoffs.
    
    Wasn't Andre Waters, poor, misunderstood Andre Waters, the guy who
    grabbed LIonel Manual AFTER a TD catch, at the END of the End Zone, and
    flung him into the stadium wall, injuring Manual.  yeah, poor
    misunderstood 'aggressive' Andre.  Personally, I don't care about Andre
    Waters, cuz I don't think he's that good of a football player.  The
    d-line of Philly is where the action is.  Those guys are pure studs.
    They are the reason the Eagles beat the Jints, not Runningham.  I don't
    know how many turnovers they've caused adn turned into back-breaking
    touchdowns.
    
    JD

>Bryce Paup walks a
> "free man" today.   Is that really right given that another player,
> namely Andre Waters, has gotten slapped with much worse for far less
> damage ???   
    
    Come now, Bob.  You know as well as anyone that it's not the damage
    done but the way in which the damage was inflicted.  Not until today
    have I heard anyone say it was a cheap shot.  In fact, friend, I was at
    your house, on your couch, watching your TV, (with your daughters),
    eating your food, drinking your drinks, with you at my side when the
    play took place.  Nothing was said about the hit at that time except
    your expression of hope that Cunningham would be OK.  Now that
    Cunningham is out for the year, Paup should have been called for
    roughing?
    
    It was a legal hit and I really don't think there was much that was
    dirty about it.  Cunningham was in an awkward stance and the defender
    hit him with a dive from all fours.  I think if Paup had hit him full
    strength, Cunningham might be out for a bit longer than a year...try
    forever alla Theisman.
    
    Question: did the Igles cut Don MacPhearson (sp?).  Why is there no
    mention of him?
    
    	--dan'l

    
    MacPherson has signed with a CFL team.
    
    Dennis
    

    Jim_Mac was one of the best play maker QB's in the game, (he's what,
    33 years old?) his problem was always his health.  He came back from
    some nasty injuries as well (lacerated kidney, torn rotator, etc.).
    
    I think he has the potential to *use* his offense better, in some
    cases, than Runningham.  Randy was great, but I still wouldn't mind 
    my starter to be Jimmy if I was considering post season play.
    
    Regardlessly Yours,
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach
    
    P.S.  Waters is a bum.

 Ugh.  Pathetic.  So bad I didn't even get mad.  Just sighed a lot.
 
 Deja vu all over again.  A Week 2 loss at home to Phoenix just like
 lasted year.    
 
 Phoenix controlled every single aspect of the game and stomped all
 over the hapless Iggles.   The Cards' backup quarterback, baby-faced
 Tom Tupa, completed just 6 of 19 passes but those six were for well
 over 200 yards including a 53-yard TD toss to Johnny Johnson.  What's
 more, the Cardinals did not convert one single 3rd down opprtunity
 the entire game and still won going away.  Yuck.
 
 Eagles had six turnovers and about a dozen penalties.  McMahon had
 nothing, the receivers dropped balls all day long, run blocking was
 pathetic, defense looked like they were stuck in mud.   Horrible.
 
 And despite all this, the Eagles still had a chance.  Late in the 3rd
 quarter, McMahon finally got a drive going and hit Fred Barnett at
 the goal line where he was immediately popped by Freddie Joe Nunn. 
 Barnett looked like he was across the goal line for six but the ball
 popped loose and the Cards recovered.
 
 So, they review it and I knew right away that they weren't going to
 overturn the call.   The CBS endzone camera must not have been turned
 on because the only angle they showed was from midfield behind the
 play and it was totally inconclusive.    Score would have been 19-17
 Cards and the Eagles would have been just a FG away.
 
 That's two critical instant replay reviews in a row that have just
 killed the Eagles.  Lasted year, in the playoff loss to the Skins,
 they took away a Ben Smith 90-plus yard fumble recovery TD and gave
 the ball back the Skins.   Now, this one where they didn't capture
 the correct angle and they give the ball over to the Cards.   Very
 very frustrating.
 
 If this is how the Eagles react to Cunningham's season ending knee
 injury, then this Eagles season is already done and over with.   The
 wheels have fallen off and the ship is listing severely.
 
 Thank God the Jints lost, too.   Guess I'd like to see Dallas win
 tonight to give the Skins a loss, too.   Then the Eagles can go into
 Dallas nexted week and perhaps get back into this race.    Phoenix
 looks like they're on a mission.
 
 Bob Hunt

Hey, Bob, as a fellow NFC East fan, do you think the Redbirds are for 
real?  I mean, they've been tearing up the league since pre-season
began.  

You've seen them, I haven't...

What do you think?

'Saw

    re -1
    
    " The wheels have fallen off and the ship is listing..." ????
    
    Must be a paddleboat.  8^)

    The Cards have people buzzing around town too.  Even had a decent
    turnout to greet them at the airport last night.  Everyone always told
    Bidwell if he put a winner on the field, the people will come. 
    
    They're +11 in turnovers now for the season, Bugel and everyone else
    seems to be *REALLY* optimistic.  Bugel is always like that, but now
    he's worse ;-)
    
    Tim McDonald said they practice attacking the ball daily.  I love that
    kind of swarming defensive attack.
    
    It's still early though...  They have quite a few road games the first
    half because of all the pansies not wanting to play here in September.
    If they can survive the road schedule with a decent record, they could
    make some noise come December.
    
    Mike

Thanks.  

That's what I was afraid of.  

Washington has a fairly easy schedule, especially in the first half.
Dallas is not the patsy they once were.  The Eagles have their work
cut out for them, and the Cards are on fire.  None of that bodes well
for the Gints, except for the fact that Randall_the_Giant_Killer is out.

Parcells picked Washington to win the division and I tend to agree.
The Giants have been flat for the "easy" teams ever since the start of
pre-season, and I don't have the faith in Handley that I had in Parcells.

With all of that, it seems like a nice Wildcard void could be filled
by Phoenix.....


'Saw

    
    I saw the Cards best the Eagles yesterday but came away wondering how
    they did it. Their offense wasn't too terrific. The Birds moved the
    ball better but turned the ball over when they got it scoring position
    (or they allegedly turned it over). The big thing with the Cardinals is
    the giveaway/takeaway ratio. If they keep this up all season, they
    could use that the way the Eagles did a few years back and not need a
    hig powered offense to score alot of points. They only need a few
    decent plays to get in FG position, because their kicker is terrefic.
    It was alot like Buddy Ryan used to say about the Eagles, give Randall
    the opportunity to make 5 big plays a game to win it. That's what Tupa
    did yesterday, set up 5 big passes that gave the Cards all of their
    scoring.
    
    Other than those plays, it was an ugly game from both teams and the
    officials.
    
    Dennis
     

 When Joey Thislewoman stated during Gameday yesterday that the Eagles would be
 better without Cunningham you just knew it was the kiss of death...I wonder
 what and where he gets his drugs....

 mike

    If the Iggles team would have played like they did with St. Randall he 
    would not have been able to save the day, either.
    
    I agree with his (JOEY) statement.  One would think the other players would
    step up their play and Mad_Mac certainly uses offense with a bit more 
    balance than Mr_If_I_Can't_Throw_A_TD_Than_I'll_Run_One.
    
    The Eag's just sucked this week.  For those of you who thought they'd
    go undefeated this year, you were let down, but they can still have 
    a great season.   They just have to adjust their offense and step up
    their play.
    
    Geez, y'all sound like Bos_Sox fans...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

 Sorry Chip but I disagree with you and Joey. How can the rest of the team 
 step up a notch? You hear this all the time and it's another one of those
 stupid sports cliche or something. On the other hand you hear that these
 guys are professionals and they come to play every game. Which is correct?

 Given the money they make, the fact that there is always somebody behind
 them that wants their job I have a feeling that most players are out there
 giving it there all all of the time. How can they loaf with all the camera
 on them and the disecting of game films done by coaches?

 I believe the Eagles' players were already playing their best before Randall's
 injury so it comes down to Mad_Mac vs. Randall and even though Mac has ties
 to the Bears I have to believe you know who is the better QB at this stage
 of their careers........

 mike

    Mike,
    
    First of all I would take a '91 Randall over a '91 Mad_Mac any day, no 
    question about it.  I would have also taken a '85 McMahon over an '85
    Cunningham.  Bears fan or not.  
    
    Second.  Players can play under their ability and still keep their
    jobs.  Look at Eason.
    
    But I would argue that if I knew I was to be brought into the offense
    more than usual I would be more Psyhed to show what I can do.  And if
    you know that if you miss a block the Q.B. has the ability to still
    make a T.D. as opposed to having a good chance of getting hurt you
    try harder.
    
    I would submit that it could be easier to block for Mac because you
    know where he'll be during the play.  With Randy movin' around as much
    as he does I would think an O-lineman has to pay as much attention to 
    Cunninghams creative playmaking as they do the defense.  After the
    inital block is made.
    
    I also think that it's crazy to think players are not motivated more or
    less given certain circumstances.  If you presume they all come out and 
    give it a true 100%, no team would ever play flat.  When a teams loses
    one of their aces', the other guys either play beyound themselves, are
    used differently and qualities are better utilized, or the other guys
    give up.
    
    You can't tell me that in the last few games for the Pat's the guys
    were playing like it was the Super Bowl.  They were playing *just* 
    good enought to keep their jobs...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach 

 Sorry Chip but you can't use the Patriots as a quantifier, they hardly qualify
 as a professional team...

 ;^)

    Touche'!
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

 Universal Truth:	You really can never get too tired of beating the
 			Dallas Cowboys.
 
 Make that eight (8) straight Iggles victories over the Pokes.   The
 lasted time the Cowboys beat the Eagles was in a strike game in 1987
 when Danny White, Tony Dorsett, Randy White and a host of other
 Cowboy front-liners crossed the picket line and tore up a hapless
 Eagles scab team.    Jimmy Johnson is now 0-5 against Philadelphia
 and can no longer fuss and feud about Buddy Ryan's bad manners.
 
 Eagles defense was simply ravenous.   Eleven (11) quarterback sacks
 against Troy Aikman.   The defensive line simply shoved the Cowboys
 offensive line aside and homed in on the prey.   Aikman also threw 3
 interceptions, his first three of the season.   For the entire game,
 the Cowboys racked up a measly 90 yards of offense.   That's it, 90
 for the entire game, a new Cowboys' all-time low.    Aikman threw for
 112 yards but the 67 yards lost in sacks brought the Cowboy passing
 attack back down to just 45 yards.   Add just 45 yards on the ground,
 too, and you have the numbers of a severe manhandling.
 
 Hey, the Dallas offense looked *good* against Washington last Monday
 night.   Emmett Smith is *not* chopped liver; he's a stud back.  
 And, Aikman had put up the numbers before yesterday.
 
 Other impressions ...
 
 McMahon does indeed spread the ball around better than Randall
 Cunningham.   Seemed like everyone was truly involved.    McMahon is
 not going to rack up a lot of 30+ point games.   He's never been that
 type of quarterback.   But, if he can continue to dish it out evenly
 and can keep putting up some big time of possession numbers, then the
 low point totals can be more than enough to win if the defense keeps
 playing to this spectacular level.
 
 The Eagles minds actually seemed to be into the game for the whole 60
 minutes.  Hard to believe !!!   I didn't see many mental lapses at
 all not counting the ill-advised muffed punt by Rod Harris that gave
 the 'Boys their only glimmer of hope ... quickly snuffed out by three
 sacks in a row, thankfully.
 
 More injuries, unfortunately.   Thomas Sanders left with an ankle
 injury.   Ron Solt went out early as well.  And, worst of all, it
 would seem as though Calvin Williams dislocated a shoulder and will
 be out for a month.  I blame McMahon for that one.   He hung Williams
 up on a high throw and Williams took the hit and landed on his
 shoulder.
 
 Jeff Feagles punted extremely well yesterday.   Nailed two of them
 inside the 5-yard line and had a 77-yard laugher, too.   I say
 "laugher" because the Eagles were actually pinned back in their own
 end and were all set to give the Pokes some decent field position for
 the first time all day.   But, the Cowboy return man slipped
 signaling for a fair catch and the ball bounced past him and kept
 bouncing crazily down the field for a 77-yarder.   And I was laughing
 the whole way.
 
 As I said after the Cunningham injury, the Eagles have a defense that
 can win by itself.   This was one of those games.   No doubt about
 it.   If they can sustain this defensive intensity, then can keep
 on winning.   Washington looks unbeatable right now and Phoenix came
 back down to Earth yesterday.   And, Lord, don't you just *LOVE* the
 Jints at 1-2.   When are the "We Want Phil!" cheers going to start in
 the Meadowlands ???    
 
 The NFC East is as tough as ever and yesterday's Eagles win was a
 sigh of relief that they're going to hang in there.   A most
 satisfying afternoon in Texas.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.   I'm glad Norman Braman doesn't stalk the Eagles sidelines like
 Jerry Jones did yesterday.   There was one camera shot of him trying
 to console Aikman and Troy had this pissed-off look on his face that
 said he'd be more than happy to deck this bozo if only he didn't sign
 his huge paychecks.

    Bob,
    
    You mean the Eagles played with more INTENSITY than in their previous
    game???    Hmmm...
    
    Mebbe they stepped up their play a notch?  Hmm...
    
    And you say McMahon used his entire offense to their full potential
    as well yesterday?   Hmm...
    
    Too early in the year to be smug but what the hell,
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

 So what's your point, Chip ???
 
 The Eagles have played three games so far this year, same as everyone
 else.   They whipped a bad Green Bay team but absorbed the worst (on
 paper) of all possible injuries in doing so.    Then they looked
 absolutely pathetic against Phoenix lasted week.   They looked like a
 1-15 team that afternoon ... that bad.
 
 So, at 12:59pm yesterday afternoon, we had no idea what to expect.  
 Not to mention that Dallas had won in Week 1 and would quite possibly
 have beaten the Redskins if Jimmy Johnson had pulled his thumb out of
 his butt on Monday Night and had bothered to work the clock like a
 pro coach is supposed to know how to do.
 
 So, to walk off the Texas Stadium field at 4:01pm yesterday with a
 devastating defensive stomping like this was truly heartening.   *NO*
 team in the NFL could have beaten the Eagles defense yesterday with
 the possible exception of the Redskins at RFK (which by the way is
 two weeks away on Monday Night and could well be a *monster* game).
 
 I'm resigned to a so-what-else-is-new schizo season for the Iggles
 with ups like this one and downs like Phoenix.   Seen this movie
 *many* times before.  Sigh ...
 
 Did you watch any of this game or are you just bustin' chops ???
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.   Halas is still dead.

    Bob -
    
    Don't know what you've heard, but I heard that Cunningham's injury will
    force him to abandon his style of play - that basically, he destroyed
    it.   They assume he'll be back next year, but I read somewhere
    (perhaps the Times..) that he may be more of a pocket passer.
    
    I hope he doesn't lose his mobility.  Remember that Ken Stabler was a
    mobile QB before knee injuries in college made him a virtual stone.
    
    Any information greatly appreciated.
    
    JD

                                                     
    Stabler a stone in the pros, JD?  That's not how I remember The 
    Snake...
    
    I'd be surprised if Randall comes all the way back, but with modern
    medical advances I'd also be surprised if he had to completely abandon 
    his style of play.  They wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) be relying on 
    him to run for 800 yards a year anymore, but even with the knee
    injury I still expect him to be one of the most mobile QBs in the
    league.  With proper rehab, he won't lose it all.
    
    I hope he comes back strong regardless.  He's one of my favorites in
    the league (for as much as I watch it), I must admit, and I think he's
    taken an undue amount of criticism for not leading a schizophrenic
    team, formerly headed by a schizophrenic coach, to the Super Bowl.  Give 
    it time...
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn-
    
    Well Snake wassn't a stone - but he wasn't the most mobile of folks.  
    
    Hawk - for every Blari Thomas and Bernard King, there's a guy like
    Kellon Winslow who caint come back like his old self.
    
    I hope he comes back - but he won't be the same.
    
    JD

    RE: (Bob Hunt)
    
    >Chip, what's the point?
    
    Bob, 
    
    Please read replies 52.123 through 52.130.
    
    I was glad to see your note.  Sheesh.
    
    (Elvis sublets a room to George Halas in Peoria)
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach
    

    
    The press in Philadelphia has found doctors that support both sides of
    the knee issue. Some say his mobility will be limited and may just need
    to be a pocket passer while other doctors say he should be able to come
    back as good as new, due to medical improvements in the procedures.
    Everybody in the media is hedging their bets so they can come back and
    say I told you so. I think he won't be as good as new but he'll still
    be one of the more mobile QBs in the NFL. Let's hope that's good
    enough.
    
    Dennis
    

 And they call medicine a "science" ???
 
 Who knows what's going to happen ???   A previous noter mentioned
 some successful comebacks like Blair Thomas and Bernard King and some
 unsuccessful ones like Kellen Winslow.
 
 There are others ...  William Andrews of the Falcons and Mark Bavaro
 of the Giants are two others who didn't make it back.    
 
 But Gayle Sayers did come back for a couple of years at least.   So
 did Wes Hopkins of the Eagles although he's not as devastating as he
 once used to be.
 
 Randall Cunningham has hit the biggest crossroads of his career.  
 Just about everything that he does from now on will be measured
 against this injury.   He'll need a lot of inner toughness.
 
 Bob Hunt

> And they call medicine a "science" ???
 
Any doc worth his salt will tell you that so much of a person getting well
stems from their mental attitude.  I'm sure Randall has a healthy one,
that's a plus for his recovery....

'Saw

       Obviously your wife is a most perceptive person!!
                              Denny  ;^)

    re JD
    
    Winslow DID come back though - and many people gave long odds on him
    even putting on an NFL uniform.
    
    Of course Winslow went from being SUperman to being a Ferrel Edmonds
    clone ... :-)
    
    Here's another example - Leslie O'Neil. When he tore his knee up - he
    was out for almost TWO full years.
    
    And he's been in the lasted two Pro Bowls ....
    
    I predict that we may very well never see him hurdle over defenders to
    score (see Mark Murphy last year vs Packers) again, but Cunningham at
    90% of old is still more effective and more exciting than almost any QB
    in the NFL.
    
    BTW JD, I'm sure that you noted that RC's injury occured while he was
    *in the pocket* (in light of the weak "Runningham" lines you use).
    
    So I looked up the career's of several of your pocket passing idols :
    
    Unitas - Broken ribs, collasped lung, knee injury, elbow injury.
    Namath - How many knee ops ? 20 ? 50 ? That's just for starters.
    Griese - Knee injury.
    Theisman - His broken leg happened in the pocket.
    Simms - His injury last year was on a sack in the pocket.
    
    
    On the other hand, RC had the longest string of consecutive starts after
    Dan Marino. Consider that ....

    Yeah, and Doc - al the 'pocket passers' you noted have champeenships
    and MVP trophies, while Runningham has hype.
    
    Doc, so far, Randall Cunningham has never disproved anything I've ever
    written about him.  He's still never lead his team to a playoff
    victory.
    
    I predict if Randall comes back, and he isn't as mobile - thereby
    forcing him to stay in the pocket longer and really use his
    quarterbacking skills, that the Eagles will win more than one playoff
    game - even in the same season.  
    
    And yes, Winslow came back - but he was not the same guy.  Just like
    Gale Sayers tried to come back, but wasn't the same.  And others since.
    
    
    Hey, I don't hate Randall Cunningham - and I wish him the best, and
    hope he comes back as good as before.  I just have doubts.  
    
    The biggest test for Randall might come when he tries to do something
    out of instinct - like hurdle a defender - and if he can't do it, that
    he doesn't get frustrated.
    
    JD

    The Eagles will rule the NFC East, and JimMcMahon will take All-Pro,
    and Comeback Player Of The Year going away.
    
    And That's a fact !
    
    Doc

    
    So Doc - how many teams are you going  to root for this year?  Keep
    jumping around - you'll eventually back a winner.
    
    So, are the Eagles going to prove they are better without Runningham,
    Doc?  After all, they've never even won a playoff game with him, and
    now you spout that Jim McMahon will lead them to the NFC East title,
    and I assume by the note's title, the Super Bowl.
    
    JD

 Don't fall for it, JD ...
 
 Doc's just trying to apply his Oilers-style Kiss Of Death on the
 Eagles for their upcoming Monday Night showdown against the Skins ...
 the team he *really* likes and has for some time now.
 
 The Eagles don't need Doc's KOD to flop in RFK.  They've been doing
 that number on their own for years now.    This game looks very
 interesting, though.   The Eagles will be the toughest defense the
 Skins will have faced to date so I'm expecting their 30+ ppg average
 to come down somewhat.   However, I don't expect McMahon to rack up
 more than the 20+ points he's been engineering.
 
 The Redskins are playing the best football in the league right now
 but this will be their sternest test.   They should win it.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Mr. Moderator, I believe an Eagle's note already exists.

 Not much to say about Monday night's Eagles loss to the Redskins.  
 But what the heck, might as well ...  :-) :-) :-)
 
 The Skins are the best team in the league right now.   With a 2 game
 lead in the NFC East, they're a mortal lock for the playoffs and a
 virtual given for the division title.    They could very well go 16-0
 if they can catch the Jints, their usual tormentors, on two bad days.
 
 Somehow, though, I can't help but feel that the Skins are blessed. 
 Somebody up there really likes them.    Much has been made of their 3
 straight shutouts at home.  
 
 Yeah, they shut out Detroit without Barry Sanders, Phoenix without
 Timm Rosenbach, and the Eagles without Randall Cunningham *or* Jim
 McMahon.    In each case, the opposing offense was missing its most
 important player.   So, be at least a little skeptical about those
 whitewashes.   Especially since they allowed 31 to Dallas and 27 to
 Cincy on the road.
 
 As for the Eagles, it would seem as though this year the injury bug
 is smacking them hard, harder than anyone else.    Sigh, so McMahon's
 durability was once again a legitimate question mark.   Frustrating
 that he hurt himself (knee) without contact.   He was running out of
 bounds and strained or sprained the ligaments.   In his "Da Bears"
 days, he got hurt by getting hit, not like this.
 
 Pat Ryan is *NOT* the answer but some of the blame must go to the
 rest of the offense who let down badly after Jimmy Mac was hurt.  
 Even rusty, Ryan could have and should have completed a few more but
 he didn't get the protection or the time and the running game was
 anemic at best.   Several QB's are available but they all have a
 similar amount of rust on 'em.    Eason, Hogeboom, Pelleur, Stouffer,
 and so on.   Hey, maybe Ron Jaworski would like to take a few snaps
 again !!!   Heavy sigh ...
 
 I can't complain about the Eagles defense.   They played their hearts
 out against the Skins.   Skins were averaging 36 ppg and the Eagles
 held them to 23.   They forced Rypien into his worst game so far but
 they couldn't shut the entire Skins offense down like they did to
 Dallas three games ago.
 
 Joe Jacoby is huge.   Watching him chase down Byron Evans on the pick
 runback was amazing.  Six-eight and 325 and he caught a linebacker
 from behind.   Unreal.    That play also turned my instant replay
 simmer knob up another notch.   I really dislike the thing.   That
 Evans catch was 100% inconclusive in my eyes but you just knew it was
 going to be reversed ... especially since Deirdorf was all but
 convinced the ball had been trapped.    Fortunately, Seth Joyner
 intercepted the nexted one so it wasn't a catastrophic reversal.
 
 Art Monk is Katherine Hepburn.   Right, Al.  Go back to Olympic
 hockey telecasts.   That whole telecast was one huge Skins
 Love-A-Thon.  Okay, I can understand that you shine the light a
 little brighter on the home team but that was absurd ... every Skin
 that broke wind was featured somehow and then the halftime piece on
 the "love affair" between Skins fans, Jack Kent Cooke, and the
 players was enough to make me reach for the barf bag.    As if the
 Skins are the only team in the NFL with a waiting list for season
 tickets and fans who've gone to every game for thirtysomething
 straight years ... the Jints, the Broncos, the Packers, they all have
 equally adoring fans.    The old Baltimore Colts and the Oakland
 Raiders did, too.
 
 Said it before, Eagles will go as far as their defense takes them. 
 Down to a 3rd QB now, the playoffs are a huge "if" and a 9-7 or 8-8
 record is a very real likelihood.   Damn, this is not what I was
 expecting.   Another frustrating chapter in a very frustrating book.
 
 Bob Hunt

Word is that McMahon will miss 3 weeks. So, Bob, you're stuck with Ryan
who looked really bad anybody else's effort notwithstanding.

The question this week is not whether the Eagles can win but can they
score with Ryan at QB. I don't know the other backup but he can't be any
worse.

TTom

 Brad Goebel, an undrafted free-agent rookie from Baylor, is the
 Eagles 4th stringer.    Pronounced "Gable" as in Clark and House Of
 The Seven.    God help us.
 
 At least it's Tampa Bay this week.   Maybe the D can grab the win all
 by itself.
 
 Bob Hunt

Parcells picked Washington to win the division based on the
strength of their schedule.  I don't think he's far off.

Eagles have a tough row to how, but should make the playoffs
if they can hang in there long enough to get McMahon back.


I thought that int was incomplete, personally, but I'm against
replay period, so it should have gone on the original call....


fwiw,
'Saw

    Rumors are flying around that Tony Eason may end up in Philly.

    Bob , how about that KoD ??? :-)
    
    Doc
    
    p.s. Eagles will sign Doug Williams

 The Eagles lose 14-13 to a previously winless but still pathetic Tampa Bay
 Buccaneers team.   Simply horrible.
 
 Eagles started rookie free-agent quarterback Brad Goebel and instructed
 him to just hand the ball off more than 30 times to Heath Sherman.  
 However, with a pathetic league low ground game, that plan went nowhere. 
 Sherman carried more than 30 times for less than 100 yards.   Brutal.
 Goebel's few passes were usually badly off target or intercepted.
 
 Eagles defense again looked solid as Vinny Testaverde was again miserable. 
 He was replaced by Chris Chandler at the start of the 4th quarter and he
 was equally horrid until with less than 5 minutes to go and the Eagles up
 13-0 on 2 Ruzek FG's and a Seth Joyner fumble recovery, Chandler directed
 the Bucs to 2 TD's and the win.
 
 Three separate plays killed the Iggles ...
 
 1) In the first half, Byron Evans intercepted a pass and headed for the
 Bucs' end zone.   However, he tried to show off and never tucked the ball
 away and it was knocked away from him as he got near the goal line.  Bucs
 recovered for a touchback and the Eagles lost critical points.    That's
 the second week in a row that Evans has picked one off and then dropped it
 at the end of the runback.    Somebody please whisper in his ear that it
 would be real nice if he could manage to hold on to the ball once in a
 while.
 
 2) In the third quarter, on the kickoff after Joyner's TD, the Bucs' Gary
 Anderson fumbled the ball on about the 10 yard line.   Rich Miano came
 flying through and dove on the ball but it squirted and the Bucs recovered
 it.   Critical play ... could have buried them with another score.
 
 3) Late 4th quarter, punter Jeff Feagles fumbled the snap and the Bucs
 recovered close to the end zone.  Two or three plays later and they scored
 their first TD and the game was sliding away.
 
 The lack of a quarterback and the subsequent lack of an offense puts too
 much pressure on the otherwise strong defense.   Not only does the defense
 have to pitch a shutout but they have to put points on the board, too.  
 That's too damn much to ask and it only gets worse as the Saints come to
 town nexted week followed by a week off and then games against the Niners
 and Jints.    Wanna bet that Joe Montana miraculously comes back for the
 Eagles game and scorches them again ???
 
 Iggles are looking down the barrel of a loaded gun and it may already have
 blasted them 'tween the eyes.   You hate to make excuses of any kind but
 the injuries are just killing this team.   Gonna be a long year with very
 few smiles.
 
 Bob Hunt

>    
>    Why?  Why not Ryan?  Especially with ex-Jet Kotite as offensive
>    coordinator.  This just seems totally illogical to me...
    
The logic supposedly was that they'd rather have Ryan coming in off
the bench if needed than a rookie coming in off the bench....

That's what they said on the pre-game show anyway.....


'Saw

Hawk,

You musta missed the Redskin game last Monday. Buddy Ryan couldn't done
much worse at QB.

Right now, it looks to be a tossup whether or not Philly can match 
the standards of Indianapolis and Cincinnati ;-). I think they can play
up to those lofty standards if they play Pat Ryan.

TTom

I think that the Eagles with McMahon can honestly compete. With Geobels
or Ryan, they're the less than mediocre team they showed yesterday.

Where's Tony Eason when you need him?

TTom

    I think present day McMahon is a stiff.  Buddy Ryan said on his radio
    show yesterday that he'll be sent to another team when Randall comes
    back.
    
    Mike

    Mark Malone could probably be talked into suiting up for the bEagles!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    	I think MacMahon is a good, not a great, quarterback who's had
    some tough luck.  Opinions about him are formed because of his
    perceived lifestyle rather than his playing ability.
    
    				/Don

    Too bad the Eagles can't trade the Jints for Simms.  Seth Joyner and a
    draft pick  ;-)
    
    THey'd make the playoffs without a problem..
    
    JD

      Mcmahon is a stiff.

    Kotite seems to think everything is wonderful. He said yesterday and
    today that everyoe was playing well. I guess that leaves one spot for
    improvement.... coaching. If your going to put Goebel in there, then
    let him play. Don't just have him in there to hand the ball off to
    Heath Sherman, but maybe put in  a short control passing game, like
    they used with McMahon. Instead, we got 8 Bucs on the line of scrimmage
    waiting for the RB so they could try to rip his head off. The Eagles
    special teams were awful yesterday as well, losing the field position
    battle and Feagles screwing up on the punt late in the game that set up
    the first TD. 
    
    On the injury front, Bruce Collie sprained a knee and is out for a few
    weeks. He was in the game for one series taking the place of Davis, who
    has been the victim of a lot of holding calls the past two weeks. I
    don't know what he's doing wrong, because I've seen a lot worse. I
    suppose the officials talk and now he's a marked man, sort of liek
    Perry was in Denver.
    
    Thee is big time in fighting between the defense and Kotite. Seth
    Joyner came out in the papers today and pretty much said Kotite was
    playing not to lose and that when you play not to lose, you will lose.
    He said Kotite was depending too much on the defense and made a bad
    decision to stop passing in the beginning of the 4th quarter. 
    
    Near the end, I was so disgusted I turned it off. They better get a
    better game plan against the Saints or they'll need two more QBs
    because the Saints LBs will kill them. Hopefully, the next game after
    the Saints, the Birds will have McMahon back. If he doesn't appear that
    he'll be ready, the coaches had better get another QB in here during
    the bye week and help him cram the offense so he'll be ready to play.
    
    Dennis
    

    WTF is an old has-been comedian like George Goebel doing playing for
    the Eagles.
    
    Sheez, some coaches decisions make no sense at all!!
    
    JaKe
    

The chicken hawks have a few QB's they're ready to dump. We'll give you mr MBA
(who throws int's into the end zone with 2 mins left and the opposition with 
no timeouts) jeff Kemp or Mr show nothing Kelley Stoffer straight up for 
Reggie White :-)

Heck, the backup QB for the UW Huskies is better than what filly has right now

:-) :-) :-)


Metz

    until Mac got hurt, the Eagles were off to their best start since '81,
    (that's pre-runningham folks...)
    
    Mac_Backer_Bach

       Defensive tackle Jerome Brown's opinion on why the Eagles are
    struggling. "We've got too many pansies on this team."
                                         Denny

 Crash.  Boom.  Thud.
 
 Bye-bye division title, bye-bye playoffs, bye-bye winning record ... and
 the Iggles don't even have a No. 1 draft pick in 1992 having given it up
 for a benched Antone Davis.
 
 No offense whatsoever.   The blame for this lies squarely in the laps of
 Rich Kotite, Harry Gamble, and Norman Braman.    There are *plenty* of
 unemployed quarterbacks out there any one of whom are better than an
 undrafted rookie free agent and a 13-year vet who sat out lasted year. 
 Chuck Long, Scott Secules, Gary Hogeboom, Steve Pelleur, and on and on and
 on ...
 
 Bah ...
 
 Bob Hunt

I thought Goebel (sp?) looked good until he got a couple of hits too
many. On 2 straight plays he went down. I think it was a mistake puting
him back in the game but having Ryan as the only alternative I can see
why they did it.

You've got to believe a cheer was heard in New Orleans when Ryan took the
snap. I concur with the school of thought that says there has to be
someone better available.

TTom

    
    Apparently Goebel's back tightened up on him after he was speared by
    James Williams, after Goebel caught a pass from Byars. Goebel wasn't an
    eligible receiver on the play. Hopefully, McMahon will be back for the
    49er game, but that's not a given. The Birds ought to sign a backup QB
    today or tommorrow and spend the off week spoon feeding him the
    offense. That way when McMahon goes down again, they'll have something
    to fall back on. I wouldn't count on it though.
    
    Dennis
    Z

 Any word yet on what's going to happen to Waters???????

 Iggles signed Jeff Kemp middle of lasted week after the Seahawks cut him.  
 Pat Ryan was then released.   McMahon is supposed to be back to face the
 Niners this Sunday albeit with both knees in braces.
 
 Owner Norman Braman was quoted as saying that the Eagles could win *all*
 their remaining games with McMahon at quarterback.   Yeah, right, Norman. 
 That's why Randall Cunningham was the starter in Week 1.
 
 Speaking of Randall Cunningham, he was interviewed on ESPN's SportsCenter
 lasted night.  He's starting to bother me just a tiny little bit ... I
 think he's got some sugar plum fairies dancing in his eyes or something
 ... talking all about wanting to quit football after lasted year's bad
 ending and how he wants to be an actor someday.    Whined a bit about some
 of the criticism he's gotten and so on.
 
 Wouldn't surprise me if someday he plays for the Rams or Raiders.
 
 Bob Hunt

    RE: Randy (.177)
    
    "...and <sniff> me and Whiney Houston are *just* friends... God I
    admire that women...  She really knows how to work a room...  I
    try to be as humble as possible..."
    
    Gad.   Acch pootooie.
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

 Iggles 30, Jints 7.
 
 Who'd a thunk it that the Jints, the defending Supe champs, would be
 just what the doctor ordered for the Birds 4-game losing streak ???  
 I don't know what it is but the Iggles just get up, way way up, to
 play the Giants.
 
 McMahon, gimpy Jimmy Mac, had a great game and the Eagles actually
 showed some life in the running game.   The Eagles defense, the
 *only* bright spot so far this dismal year, kicked the Jints all over
 the field.   Reggie White was a terror and the rest of the D was
 hitting people with some vicious shots.
 
 Nexted week at Cleveland.   Hope Bernie knows how to run.
 
 Bob Hunt

    re. -1
    
    Don't you worry now, 'ol Bernie knows how to run, alright; he also
    knows how to pass that old pigskin, an' let me tell ya, he gonna
    cream those eagles in Cleveburg and drive the Brownies into the
    SUPERBOWL!
    
    
    I think.

I only watched the first half Bob.  I was up really early yesterday morning
and couldn't stay awake.  'Course the game weren't so great anyway.

Observations:

	Reisenberg, normally quite capable of handling white, was playing
	on what Gifford kept referring to (as if it were his mantra)
	a "very sore ankle".  Why he was kept one-on-one and they didn't
	double team White is beyond me.  Hell, the Giants NEVER throw
	to their TE anymore, so the guy should be blocking anyway....

	White is a phenom.  I've never seen anyone that big move that
	well, except maybe Jay Jacoby pulling down that Iggles LB
	in their game earlier this season, after the LB intercepted. 8^)

	
Big Observation:

	Did ya ever see a brick wall?  did you ever see a man bang
	his head against that wall?

	Ray Handley is the same kind of game coach that Snuffy Smif'
	is.  Great prep, poor game coach.   Only problem was this
	week, he did shit prep too.

	I was reminded of the 70s, when the Giants would run on 
	2nd and forever...  sheesh.


Handley has taken a team laden with talent, and basically, through his
own ineptitude and ignorance, flushed them down the shitter....


'Saw

     Nice to see Jimmy getting a few lasted(tm) days in the sun...
    He don't have many left !!  Good game Beagles.....  You cost
    me some bucks but that what I get for betting with my brain
    instead of my heart....  Hate Them Midgets !!
    
    Big Game
    
       And Remember...  If it's no' Scottish it's CRAP !!!

    
>                     -< Jint's not the same team with out Bill P. >-
 
    I'm not saying that this new guy is or ever will be a good coach,
    but I think he's taking too much of a rap for this particular Giants
    squad's performance.  Seems to me that they're exhibiting all the
    classic signs of post-championship letdown.  In other words, the
    players are mailing this one in...
    
    glenn
    

     Good Point.... Hadn't thought about it that way ...   
    
    Big game

Glenn, I disagree.

The Giants went through the letdown in 87, and most of the players know
how it works and have tried to avoid it like the plague.

The difference, in my mind is this:

	Parcells was very much like Lombardi in several respects.
	He could take a player who was motivated to a certain point
	and bring that motivation to a team peak.  His football
	team was "superb execution of fundamental plays", just like
	Lombardi.

	Handley is not, nor does he want to be, a motivator.  He has
	stated this, and he has not wavered from that.   A blue collar
	team like the Giants, used to motivation, need that.  Handley
	is ignoring that.

	The stories of Handley's training camp being a country club
	compared to Parcells speak volumes...


Oh well....

    
    The Eagles had the Giants pinned inside their own 30 yd line for much
    of the night. Only once did the Giants start a drive outside their own
    30 and that was on their 37 (I think). They tried to run the ball
    (unsucsessfully) and got stuck in a rut. If it wasn't for Izel "toast"
    Jenkins, they wouldn't have gotten the one TD they did. It seems like
    the Eagles still have the Giants number.
    
    BTW - The Philadelphia press is reporting that Hoss wasn't seriously
    injured and quoted Handley saying that he's not sure who'll be the QB
    on Sunday. Could be time for a change in NJ.
    
    Dennis
    

>    
>    BTW - The Philadelphia press is reporting that Hoss wasn't seriously
>    injured and quoted Handley saying that he's not sure who'll be the QB
>    on Sunday. Could be time for a change in NJ.


Ray Handley couldn't find his ass with both hands in a lighted room
full of mirrors and plate stacking waiters.


The man is a PUTZ, pure and simple.

If he plays Simms, I'd like to see Simms lead the team to an undefeated
rest of the season, NOT to show Hoss in a bad light, but to show
Handley to be the inept, SnuffySmif' Choke artist that he is.....


'Saw

    
     `Saw,  Don't hold back now Big Guy.....  Tell us how you \
    really feel about Ray Handley.  We've had enough of your
    pussy-footing around the subject !!
    
    
    ;^)
    
    Big Game

    Strange thing about Handley.... after the game, when talking to the
    press and talking about the Giants team, he kept refering to the team
    as "they", not we or us. I have never heard a coach talk that way. It's
    almost like "we" win but "they" lose. What a jerk!
    
    Dennis
    

 Hey, take all this wimpy girly-mon talk about the washed-up Jints over to
 The Official Has Been/Yesterday's News Note, will ya ???
 
 This note is for the once-again high flyin' Iggles ... who would just love
 to schedule the Jints 16 times a year, don'tcha know ???
 
 How in the world any team can lose to Tampa Bay and then beat the Giants
 is beyond my ability to comprehend.   The Eagles always were, still are,
 and (sigh) always will be one of the most frustrating teams any sports fan
 could ever follow.
 
 Bob Hunt

Bob,

Do me     8^)

 Most of the discussion on lasted Sunday's Eagles 32-30 comeback win over
 the Browns is going on over in the Browns note but we'll touch on a few
 points here and now ...
 
 They had a foot in the grave with the 23-0 lead they "spotted" the Browns. 
 Forget it if Goebel or Ryan and Kemp were calling signals.   Hell, I
 wonder if even ol' Randall (who?) could have brought them back.   But
 Jimmy Mac did it.   The guy is a winner.  I'm sure he must infuriate fans
 who root against him but he's one tough sumbitch, ya gotta give him that. 
 
 The 23-0 lead was no big deal, plenty of time left to grind it out.  Play
 tough on D and just get some drives going.  And they did.   As soon as
 Randall went down in Week 1, Quarter 1, I made the statement that the
 Eagles would go as far as their defense would take them but they would and
 could win one, maybe two, offensive shootouts with McMahon.   Well, this
 was it ...   Eagles had 3 touchdowns and 4 field goals which beats the
 Browns' 4 touchdowns and 1 field goal.
 
 I was at The Vet on 1-Dec-1985 for perhaps the modern Eagles worst loss. 
 They had a 23-0 lead on the Vikings with 8:27 to go in the *4th* quarter
 and gave up 4 lightning fast touchdowns and lost the game and their
 season.   I gave them almost no chance to make up these 23 points on the
 Browns on the road with a gimpy Jimmy Mac but damn if they didn't shock
 the hell outta me and I'm sure the rest of the Iggles faithful.   They
 just don't do that every day, ya know.
 
 Eagles have 6 games left.  Three at home and 3 on the road.   Houston,
 Phoenix, and the Jints are away and the Skins, the Bengals, and the
 Cowboys are at The Vet.   Win 'em all and they're 11-5 and in the
 playoffs, for sure.   Split 'em (8-8) and they're home for the holidays.  
 At minimum, they *MUST* go 4-2 ... 5-1 should be enough but 4-2 is
 essential.
 
 At Houston on a Monday night will be a very tough one especially since
 the Oilers'll be trying to wrap up a division crown.   But the Oilers
 haven't seen a defense like the Eagles either so it is winnable.
 
 They must win at Phoenix and I think they will.  They've never lost there
 yet as they usually save their stinky games against the Cards for home in
 Philly.    Phoenix seems to be taking their annual plunge so the timing
 might be right.   Defense will rule this one.
 
 Likewise, they have to win at the Jints.   If the Jints truly have packed
 it in for the year, I wish they'd let us know and save the suspense.   The
 Iggles have the Jints' number but no game in the Meadowlands is ever easy.  
 Fluke plays always seem to decide these contests.
 
 The Bengals at home this weekend seems like a lock but it ain't.  I'll bet
 not many people know that the *ONLY* NFL team that the Eagles have never
 beaten in a regular season game is none other than the Cincinnati Bengals. 
 True.  They're like 0-6 against them lifetime.
 
 The Cowboys at home should also be a tough one but I'm expecting a win. 
 Jimmy Johnson is 0-fer against the Eagles and I dearly want that delicious
 little streaklet to continue.   Fact is the Pokes haven't beaten the
 Iggles since the 1987 scab games.   They put a huge hurtin' on Aikman in a
 crushing romp earlier this year in Texas.   More of the same would be
 so nice.
 
 Which brings us to the season finale against the Redskins.   God, if
 you're listening, please let them come into The Vet at 15-0 ???  Pretty
 please ???   Send the wife and the kids to shelter when this game kicks
 off.   If the Skins are unbeaten and the Eagles still have a wildcard shot
 on the hook, this game will be a classic.    Bodybags will be in order.
 
 Bob Hunt

Party Alert!

TTom

    Hawk, putting the Top 10 Babes in one room would certainly cause
    bigtime cat fights.  We would have to contain and regulate said fights
    by using mud and/or hot oil.
    
    	--dan'l

    Before the bandwagon gets into high gear, be aware Ben Smith (CB) is
    gone for the season with a torn Anterior Cruciate Ligament. His
    replacement at starting CB will be either Izel "toast" Jenkins, John
    Booty (former Jet) or Otis Smith (2nd yr player, spent all last season
    on IR). Definite hurt on what was considered the best CB combination
    (with Eric Allen) in the NFL. Kotite quite testily refused to name a
    starter for next Sunday in Smith's place.
    
    Kotite also refused to say if RB James Joseph would start next week
    against the Bengals. Rich did however spend considerable time during
    the press conference giving hte Bengals all kind of credit, for being a
    great team, for having a great QB, for having a great defense, for
    having a great running game, for having great receivers, for curing
    cancer... well, maybe not the last one, but you get the point. Kotite
    said that the Bengals are a playoff team and the best 1-9 team in NFL
    history. I guess he was trying to wake up the city and sell tickets
    (about 2100 remain) but I can't see it happening. The only ay they
    should lose is if they let down or if McMahon gets hurt.
    
    Regarding Jim McMahon and his performance Sunday, Ron Heller (T) had a
    great line. Heller, who is McMahon's roomate, was talking about how
    tough McMahon is and about how much pain he was in from a reaction to
    an injection in his elbow. Heller said, "Jim's in so much pain that he
    could't tie his own ponytail." That about says it all!!  ;^)
    
    Dennis
    
    

      If Kwak gits on I95S he won't make it past Doc and Nellie's Bar in
    Canton (MA).
                                   Denny ;^o

I can not, in good faith, jump on the Eagles bandwagon....

why ?


I'm still pissed they fired Buddy....In spite of an injured Runningham he would 
have had this team in better shape than Kotite does. He wouldda done something
in the Brad Goebel days to get them a win instead of watching the team flounder
around....HE wouldda found somebody better than Jeff Kemp as a backup QB....
This season, more than any, he wouldda used the adversity and Randall's Injury
to have them fired up, sky high for every game.....

If Atlanta had any guts they'd fire Jerry "pinhead" Glanville and hire Buddy to
whip that team of underachievers into shape....

I hope the eagles go down hard for the next 3 seasons until Philledelphians are
crying to have Buddy back....

Metz

    
     Metz....
    
     As much as I have to say that Buddy has put together some of the best 
    Defenses in the past decade,  Hes is worthless when it comes to a 
    productive offense.  The only reason the Eagles had any kind of offense
    at all under Buddy is because Runnungham was there to inprov his way
    through each and ever game.  The closest thing Buddy ever had to an 
    offensive game plan was Runningham's magic.  Buddy should be a
    defensive coordinator......  Not a head coach !!
    
    
    Big Game

 Hmmm, interesting ...  I have thought about His Former Rudeness' departure
 in quite some time now.   The Bryce Paup hit on Cunningham's knee silenced
 the Buddy Ryan talk completely.    Everything since then has revolved
 around Cunningham's replacements and their separate highs and lows ...
 
 So, for argument's sake, let's turn the clock back and have Randall bounce
 back up from that hit and take the next snap and all the rest since that
 game ...
 
 You're right then, Kotite would have been fried by now with the 5-5
 record.  No doubt about it.   The losses to Phoenix, the Saints, the
 Niners, and especially the Buccaneers would all have been heavily
 criticized if Randall were indeed calling the shots and the "Bring Back
 Buddy Brigade" would have been screaming their lungs out by now.
 
 And, yes, Kotite handled the Jimmy Mac replacements very poorly.  Pat Ryan
 was worthless and Brad Goebel just doesn't have the pedigree or even the
 practice experience to just throw him in there.   But there's no guarantee
 that His Unemployed Rudeness would have handled it any better.   Remember
 that this is the guy who went through half a dozen kickers in his first
 few years before he found Roger Ruzek almost by accident.
 
 And there's no way that Ryan could have had this current defense playing
 any *significantly* better than it is right now.   Hell, Kotite has them
 at No. 1 in the league and he's an offensive specialist.   Ryan never had
 the Eagles defense at that slot.  {Aside: Bud Carson probably deserves
 most of the credit for the defense this year, not Kotite.}
 
 All in all, Metz you raise a good point about Ryan's absence but his
 strengths on defense are not the Eagles' problem right now.   Ryan's
 weaknesses were always on offense and that's where the Eagles hang by
 their tattered talons at this moment.
 
 I miss Ryan for his press conferences.   Kotite puts me to sleep.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Hmm...  Butthead being gonzo and Mac-in-charge is the only reason
    I like those eagles...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach 

    re: .205
    
    One of Buddy's biggest strengths was personell evaluations. He always
    seemed to be able to spot a player and might have gotten a servicable
    QB in when McMahon went down. That would have given the Eagles a shot
    at a couple of the McMahon-less contests, like the Buc and Saints games.
    At the end of the season, those two games will stand out as the killers.
    With any type of offensive leader, both of those games could have been
    wins.
    
    Dennis
    

    
     That may be true but what do you think Buddy would have done 
    differently?  He really had no talent in offensive game plans.
    Personaly I think the result of the game would have been the
    same.  If you look around the league at what is available for
    2nd string of for that matter 1st string QB's you have to say
    that Richie did the best he could given the choices available.
    
    IMO
    
    Big Game

    Get Eason?

    The big name that was talked about here in Philadelphia was the gent
    from New Orleans.... whose name escapes me at the moment. The problem
    during the games that mcMahon missed is that the Eagles totally
    scrapped any hint of a passing game and went ultra ultra conservitive.
    THe had three basic plays... run Sherman left, run Sherman right and
    run Sherman up the middle. If they had a QB that could at least throw a
    dink pass, a possesion pass (like McMahon has been doing) they would
    have at least won the Buc game and possibly the Saints game. It's
    interesting that when the Eagles switch from a defensivce genius as
    coach to an offensive master, the defense gets getter and the offense
    has no imagination. Who'd have thunk it.
    
    Dennis
    

Sure Buddy was no offensive genius but his offense always managed to produce
something on the scoreboard. Sure he might have had Runningham but who developed
runningham into the QB he is today? Do you think anybody else would have had
the forsite to start putting him in on 3rd and long and slowly watched him 
develop to the point where Buddy handed him the reigns and said " go run the
offense"

I'm still ticked at the Eagles for letting him go. I dislike the owner of the
Iggles and I hope the team drops to the depths of the division. Unfortunately
Buddy was smart enough to get the iggles to sign McMahon as a backup to 
runningham and they just might ride him into the playoffs.....If they do 
manage to make the playoffs I'd like to see McMahon lead them to at least 1
playoff win so everybody will turn to Randal and say "How come you couldn't 
lead us to a layoff win the lasted 3 years Randy?"

The defense is playing great but it's the same defense that Buddy constructed.
Kotite hasn't changed anything. It's buddy's defense without him at the helm.


Metz

    The defense has improved over last year, particularly the pass defense.
    Some of that can be traced to the maturing of Ben Smith and Eric Allen
    at the corners, but some of the credit also goes to Bud Carson.
    Carson's philosophy of not blitzing as much and staying in coverage has
    improved the team defense. 
    
    Of course, none of that is Kotite's doing (except hiring Carson). It
    appears to me that Kotite is clueless.
    
    Dennis
    

    
     Granted,  There are other QB's out there that have more experience
    than the Eagles 3 stringer but none are stars by any means.  
    Tony "Ankle Biter" Eason, Jaws and Forecade have been off the field
    for sometime.  the ankle Biter never was good for much except for
    taking a dive when any amount of pressure was applied.  Jaws is about
    100 years old and didn't perform well lasted(tm) year.  And Forcade
    never should have been in the NFL to begin with.  You are right,  there
    are others out there......  I don't think the difference in ability
    between those out of work and Gobel is much to speak of.  Someone said
    the problem was that the Eagles forgot about the passing game when 
    J-Mac went down....  I think that played much more of a role in the
    Eagles losses that did the ability of the QB.  
    
    Big Game

Iggles are back in it as they take their third straight.   Jimmy Mac 
continues to lead them to critical wins.

Firsted ever regular season win over the Bengals.  Believe it or not, the 
Eagles had beaten every other team in the NFL at some point in time with 
the exception of Cincinnati.

Nexted up is Phoenix at Phoenix.  Eagles have never lost there.   Another 
critical game ... A must if they want to grab a wild-card slot.

Bob Hunt

 Boy, this is gonna be one of the wildest NFC wild-card races in years.  
 The Lions, Giants, Cowboys, Falcons and, yes, the Eagles all won
 yesterday.   Right now, the Lions are leading the reace with an 8-4 record
 but the other 4 teams all have 7-5 marks.
 
 The Eagles avenged their early season loss to the Cards yesterday in
 Phoenix.  I don't know what it is but these two teams almost always split
 their season series on the road.   The Eagles traditionally look pathetic
 against the Cards at The Vet yet they've never lost in Phoenix.  
 Yesterday was no exception ...
 
 Jimmy Mac did not look sharp early in the game but gradually got his
 timing down and started to move the offense.   He threw 2 TD's but also
 had three picks.   The running game is actually showing some spark, too. 
 In fact, the Eagles' second offensive touchdown to start the 3rd quarter
 was a "textbook" score ... they pounded the middle with the power running
 game and as soon as the Cards brought nine guys up to the line to stop the
 next run, and bip ... Jimmy Mac hit Keith Jackson W-I-D-E open for six.
 
 Eagles' defense was ravenous.   CBS flashed a stat showing just a handful
 of famous defensive units in NFL history who have finished 1st in both
 rushing and passing defense.   Eagles are currently sitting at 1 and 1 and
 can join the Purple People Eaters, the Fearsome Foursome and a few more in
 that august company.
 
 Eagles forced seven Phoenix turnovers and two of them were cashed in for
 scores.   Seth Joyner picked one off and took it in and then he knocked
 the ball loose from Gelbaugh in the end zone and Clyde Simmons caught it
 for another defensive six.
 
 Final score ... Iggles 34, Cards 14.   Eagles have a tough road to finish
 the season with Houston and the Jints on the road and then Dallas and the
 Skins at home.   If they do happen to make the playoffs, they will have
 earned it.   If not, I hope they watch films of the Tampa Bay loss all
 winter long.
 
 Bob Hunt

Fearsome Foursome:

		Merlin Olsen,
		Bubba Smith
		Deacon Jones
		?

It was the Rams, right?  But I forget who all were there....


'Saw

       Lamar Lundy
       Rosey Grier
       Don't think Bubba was there.
                                Denny

 Damn, now Denny beats me to the punch.   Oh well, I may be a step slow but
 you always get the full story ...
 
 Bob Hunt

Okay, I was thinking more of early 70s... Before Dryer (and the change
to Blue and Gold)....  And yet it was after Grier too....


As to pansies...heh heh heh...

I'm kinda big.  I'm 6', and I check the other day and was at 232.
Now, it ain't all muscle yet, but even if it was, there's no way
I'd go up to Rosie and say "You, you wimp, whatta you doin' needlepoint
for..."


And Merlin Olsen...who-ee, Fearsome is da woid!


Used to love to watch those guys.....



'Saw

    Roger Brown (Alex Karras' longtime linemate at Detroit) came over later
    and replaced Rosie Grier.  Lundy, Jones and Olsen were the real
    constants.
    
    John

Bubba Smith played in the same time period for the Colts.  They had the "Smith
Brothers" on the line, Bubba and Billy Ray.  As far as I know, Billy Ray is the 
father of the Billy Ray Smith playing now.

=Bob=

>Bubba Smith played in the same time period for the Colts.  They had the "Smith
>Brothers" on the line, Bubba and Billy Ray.  As far as I know, Billy Ray is the 
>father of the Billy Ray Smith playing now.

Yes.  You're so right.  I knew it wasn't quite right when I put it in...


Like I said, I was thinking early 70s, roughly.  The Rams had Roman
Gabriel at QB still (I mean we're talking 69-70 here...I would have been
in 6th grade I think).

Defense was Olsen, Deacon Jones ?, ?.

They had a return man (Alvin Haymond or something like that) who was
really good too.


I'm really stretching the old memory cells.


Next time I've over at my folks, they have a couple of old books from
that time period (back when the NFC had four divisions) with rosters and
all.  I'll have to borrow them and bring them in.


Blast from the Past:  Atlanta Falcons RB Junior Coffey....



'Saw

    
    
re .224
    
> Bubba Smith played in the same time period for the Colts.  They had the "Smith
> Brothers" on the line, Bubba and Billy Ray.  As far as I know, Billy Ray is the 
> father of the Billy Ray Smith playing now.

    Yep. Of course Bubba DID have a blood brothe in the NFL, Tody Smith,
    who played for the Oilers. Bubba played with Baltimore, Oakland, and
    Houston, but was never a Ram.
    
    For you other Vikes' fans, here are the Original Purple People Eaters :
    
    Alan Page (My Favorite)
    Carl Eller
    Jim Marshall
    Gary Larson (Later replaced by Doug Sutherland)
    
    DrM 

    Re: Phoenix game
    
    The best part was McMahon's golden shower ;-)
    
    Re: Fearsome 4some
    
    I have Rosey's and Merlin's autographs.
    
    Mike

    And of course, Rosey Greir went to the Rams after playing for the New
    York Football Giants, where he was part of their famed defense. He
    played alongside Andy Robustelli and Jim Katcavage..
    
    JD

 -   played alongside Andy Robustelli and Jim Katcavage..

My dad played high school football for La Salle Prep in Philly and played 
against Jim Katcavage who played for a rival Philly Catholic school.  
Katcavage kicked his butt but my dad recovered sufficiently enough to go on 
and play college football at Sewanee under the legendary Shirley "Don't 
Call Me" Majors, father of Tennessee Vols' coach Johnny Majors who coached 
two current Eagles, Reggie White and Antone Davis.

My father, of course, is a big Eagles fan which now ends all the 
Jints and Rams ratholes in here and brings this topic back to its intended 
and established focus.

Thank you very much ...

Bob Hunt

Sorry Bob, I'd forgotten we were in the Iggles note.

If anyone wants to continue talking about GREAT front fours (which
Philly has never had -- oops, just kidding Bob), let's take it to the
NFL note, which is like 5.* or something.....


'Saw

    
    This isn't about the Iggles ;-), but I noticed a freshman linebacker
    from LA by the name of Rosey Grier is on Penn State's grid squad.
    Couldn't be, right?  Rosey Senior played for PSU in the 50s...
    
    glenn
    

    
     Old Jimmy Mac sure is a winner....  It's amazing how a guy as 
    beat up as he is can lead a team to victory...  Sure would like 
    to see the Eagles represent the NFC in the SB this year.  I think
    Jim's injuries and his ability to play through the pain fires up
    the rest of the team to be the best they can be.  I like the guy,
    and the Eagles are playing inspired football with him at the helm.
    
    Big Game

    Be careful Big Game,
    
    Once you start suggesting that "professionals" can play at another
    level, or more inspired, you usually get flak in this note...  ;-)
    
    I agree with you, they're cookin' wif gas...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    Oh well,  It surely won't be the first time that I've gotten Flak 
    from the Bozo's in this conference and I'd be disappointed if it 
    were the last....  
    
    MANY, MANY,  ;^)
    
    Big Game

I'm with you, Big Game ...

I thought for sure that Jimmy Mac would ride outta town on the same train 
that took His Rudeness back home to his farm.  But Rich "Don't Call Me 
'Richie'" Kotite kept him on and he's reaping the benefits of it.

Jimmy Mac is a winner.  He's got the third highest winning %age of all 
active quarterbacks behind only Rypien and Montana.   There ain't no 
mystery to it ... the man knows how to win.   

It most certainly does help to play next to the league's No. 1 defense like 
he's doing this year and in 1985 with "Da Bears" but he guided the team to 
three offensive touchdowns yesterday and that's good enough production out 
of *ANY* quarterback.

They're following the post-Cunningham script to perfection right now.  The 
offense is generating sufficient pointage to allow the defense a free 
hand to win the games.   At this point, believe it or not, the 
Eagles' biggest regret is *NOT* Cunningham's season-ending injury but 
instead McMahon's three weeks on the shelf.

Bob Hunt 

     Agreed,  Had Jim not been sidlined for three weeks the Eagles would
    have a lock on a playoff spot.  Randall is badness on the field but it
    is hard to fault anything the MAC has done this year for the Eagles.
    
    Big Game

As much as I've said I "hate that guy", I take my hat off to his
sheers guts, fortitude, and will to win.


I may hate his "showmanship", but I sure do RESPECT the man!


'Saw

Are people going to revise their opinions of Randall Runningham because of what
Mac has does this season? Remember this is the QB that was touted as all-world
lasted season....

Say Mac leads the Iggles to the NFC title game or further...does runingham get 
his job back with no competition nexted season? Iffen he does and he starts
off slowly will Iggels fans start screaming for Jimmy MAc to come back?

Metz

Quarterback controversy in Philly ???

Strange as it may seem, over the years, the Iggles don't have many 
quarterback controversies and they're usually not as divisive as other 
teams' problems are.   I mean they're nothing compared to the brouhahas 
that the Rams used to have in deciding between Haden and Ferragamo or the 
Jints with Simms and Brunner or the old Skins with Sonny and Billy.

But, you're right ... nexted year could indeed see a very interesting 
debate on the Iggles' signal caller ... no doubt Randall will want his job 
back tout de suite but Jimmy Mac will be wearing the savior's halo (given 
that they don't collapse completely in the nexted four weeks).

What to do ???   I'd like to take Jimmy Mac's heart and stuff it into 
Randall's body and then see what takes wing.   If Jimmy Mac gets them into 
a playoff game and if (gasp!) they actually win one, he'll be sainted and 
Randall will have a tough time just stepping right back in.

Looks a lot like the current Simms-Hoss "feud" ... although Hoss should now 
be on the shelf for quite a while with a broken transverse process bone in 
his back.

Could be very very interesting ...

Bob Hunt 

    re.238
    
    Are you kidding?? You're not really serious?? 
    
    As good as Jimmy Mac is doing, he can't pratice and spends most of the
    1st half getting his timing back. He can bearly walk. McMahon's job is
    to not lose the game for the most part (much like Rypien in DC).Jimmy
    Mac does more than that, but I don't think he can be superman every
    week like Randall can. McMahon probably gets a better effort out of the
    rest of the team (OL and defense) because they know they need to be on
    the top of their games if they want a change to win. McMahon is the
    best leader I've seen in a while at QB, which Randall will probably
    never be (due to his emotional makeup). The other thing to keep in mind
    is the fragile body of Jim McMahon. One good hit and he may be history
    for the season (and maybe forever). No exactly what you want to build
    your franchise around.
    
    Dennis

I posed the question to see how the Philly Phaithful would react. I'm not a 
great fan of Runningham as a QB. He improved greatly for 2 years but then seemed
to flatten out and let his athletic talent carry him instead of becoming an 
intelligent QB. He would rather run around and buy time and toss the ball up
than learn to read defenses and make the correct decision. He's continually
choked in the playoff games and has a big mouth. With his latest spouting off
after his injury he's taken on the perceived attitude that he knows more than
his coaches on how the game should be played and he's not going to listen to 
anybody when he comes back.

I wonder how he'll feel watching Jimbo (hopefully) lead this team where he
hasn't taken them ( a first round playoff win)....

Jimmy Mac isn't going to hold together for 5 years but maybe he'll put the game
in enough light so that people won't think of Randall as a pretender to an all
world QB next year. He's not close to one IMHO..

Perhpas people will notice that it's been the Eagle D that's led this team the
last 2 seasons (just like this one) and not Randall Runningham.....


Metz

    Re Runningham:
    
    Yes, I have a smug smile on my face.  I called Runningham overrated
    years ago, and Mac is showing what the Iggles needed.  A leader who
    could run the offense.   Some problem the Jints ran into this year -
    they opted to the flash of Hoss - the good stats, the all-important
    (ha) mobility - over the winning leadership of Simms.  
    
    If RUnningham ever learned to be a leader and put himself as a team
    member, and not the 'ultimate weapon' - then perhaps the Iggles would
    have won a playoff game with him at the helm...
    
    JD

                                             
    I think you guys are again looking for simple formulas that just
    aren't there.  If Philly makes the playoffs and their defense gets
    romped on like the 'Skins did against it last year is there going
    to be a retraction?  Will we hear it was because McMahon's 
    leadership qualities disappeared or just because the defense pain
    stunk?  Can I get a commitment in advance?
    
    What if Philly doesn't make the playoffs at all?   Are they still
    better off than with Cunningham?
    
    glenn
    

- Perhpas people will notice that it's been the Eagle D that's led this    
- team the last 2 seasons (just like this one) and not Randall 
- Runningham.....

That's a fair enough assessment but you have to put it into a slightly 
larger perspective ...  The Eagles won the 1988 NFC East Division title 
with its offense and with Randall Cunningham firmly and spectacularly at 
the controls.   The 1988 Eagles defense was very very porous ... they gave 
up huge amounts of yardage and often in huge plays, too.   They won the 
title with a lot of 35-31 type offensive shootouts and then took their 
playoff powder in Chicago when that damn fog rolled in and essentially 
ended the game at halftime.

The 1989 and 1990 Eagles earned their wild-card wings with their defense.  
Seth Joyner, Clyde Simmons, Jerome Brown, Byron Evans and Eric Allen all 
blossomed in this time frame.  Add them to Reggie White and a 
rejuvenated Wes Hopkins and that's how they made it into post-season these 
lasted two years where they flamed out when the offense couldn't get things 
rolling against the Rams (1989) and Skins (1990).   There were a couple of 
shootouts during these two seasons ... who could forget the 42-37 thriller 
in RFK in Week 2 in 1989 ... but for the most part the "D" brought 'em home.

Once again, if they make it, it will be primarily due to the defense.  But 
don't discount the 32-30 shootout that McMahon slung at the Browns three 
games ago.   Counts just as much as the stingy hurtins they been puttin' on 
people.

I firmly believe that I'm not head-over-heels ga-ga in love with Randall 
Cunningham.  In fact, I'm probably one of the most cynical but fanatical 
Iggles fans you'll ever want to meet.   But it always makes me giggle to 
hear JD and the other Jints fans blast ol' Randall.   I agree that JD makes 
some very good points about Cunningham's value to the team but very few 
players torture the Jints to the extent Randall does.   He's the one player 
they least like to see ... When the Skins took the Eagles outta the 'offs 
lasted season, a *HUGE* sigh was heard coming from the Meadowlands.   The 
Jints had a clear road (and a Norwood miss) to a Supe ring.

Bob Hunt  

    
     Metz..  I was gonna ask the same question but was sure the reaction
    would not be good.
    
     Re: A few back...  I don't think that anyone has said the the Eagles 
    would be better off with out Runningham....  Only that he could learn a
    thing or two about leadership and football skills from Jimmy Mac....
    
    Big Game
    
    Runningham is overated

If MAc doesn't lead them to at least where Random did then I'd have to say the
Eagles are better off with Random at the helm. 

I just made the proposal to see if people's opinions of Cunningham would change 
based on Mac's performance with essestially the same team.....

I agree with BobHunts assesment of Randall and the Giants. He killed them and
every Giant fan fears what Cunningham has done and is capable of doing vs. the
Gints....


The end of this season will be interesting.....


Metz

 Oh come on now Bob you're being way to kind how can you so easily forget the
 thirty Jim pasted the Jints with a few weeks ago. That was easily more up-
 setting to this Jints' fan than anything Randall has done. While Randall is
 indeed a dagger to any Jints' fan it's the DL that drives the dagger through.
 They just plain whip our boys on the line our runners our QB's man I get
 headaches just thinking of em. But with the growth of Calvin and Fred this
 year as well as reliable Byars and Jackson this team with Randall at the 
 helm I would have expected to throw thirty at the Jints.

 But not Jimmy Mac....it hurt and it hurt bad cause our boys just bellied
 up and took BK's advice....

 While I will agree the team has rallied around Mac and is playing tougher
 who's to say that was going to happen with Randall at the helm cause supposedly
 they worked out the fueding over the summer....

 Big Game,  many many NFL QB's could take leadership lessons for Mac. My
 buddies Bubby and Jeff just to name a few....

    re .229
    
    Was Shirley Majors any relation to Lee ?
    
    :-)

    Bob, don't worry about the Jints fans, they'll die before admitting how
    they would rather not see Cunningham. Hell, they'd love to see McMahon
    any day of the week.
    
    Funny how RC is now getting blasted as "overrrated", and McMahon is
    providing "proof" in his role as savvy leader - because if there was a 
    overrated QB in the mid-80's it had to be Jimbo. And that's not knocking 
    his leadership (a nebulous quality to quantify at the best of times), but 
    give me that "46" defense and Walter Payton, and I'd look like a minor 
    deity too.
    
    Ditto in Philly. McMahon is playing within himself, and the Eagles' D
    and O has kicked it up a notch.
    
    Witness Sunday's game, the D scored 2 TD's and set up 10 other points
    in the first half ALONE.
    
    Reminds me of how the Steel Curtain took over in 77 (?) when Bradshaw
    got hurt and shut out 4 of their next 9 opponents with a rookie at QB. 
    
    Anyhow, this whole rathole is a tad premature isn't it ?
    
    1) The Iggles haven't clinched a playoff spot.
    2) McMahon has NEVER gone a complete season without injury.
    3) Has anyone wondered if McMahon is content with his role ?
    
    Remember the Griese/Morral combo ? Or Lamonica/Blanda ?
    
    Why not a Cunningham/McMahon ?
    
    Last note : Randall popped off about staying in the pocket for a good
    reason. LAst year Kottie put a tether on him, and the offense
    struggled. When Kottie and RC took a sanity check and modified the
    offense, the Eagles took off - until the playoff fisaco against
    Washington.
    
    This year, Cunningham got hurt *standing in the pocket*. In case you
    so-calld purists haven't noticed, the vast majority of injuries take
    place in the pocket, not on a scramble.
    
    I can't blam him for being peeved.
    
    Doc

    O.K. Doc_Hamma',
    
    Cunningham did win several playoff games.
    
    The Eagles weren't off to their best start (wif Mac) since '81.
    
    Mac isn't the third best active Q.B. from a win-loss percentage.
    
    Cunningham never cried/whined to the media.
    
    We are not in a recession.
    
    

There were games when the Jints contained Crandell, and games when
they didn't.

From a Jints fan perspective, they are more worried about seeing a
backup QB come in DURING A GAME, than anything else.  Historically
they've been burned by that big time.


And while I've never, ever wished injury upon anyone, I certainly
didn't mind when Crandell got hurt.....


'Saw

    Bob Hunt -
    
    If you must know - I never worried about Runningham.  I worried about
    the Eagles front 7.  They beat the Giants, not Runningham.  Seemed
    like every game they scored a TD or forced some huge turnovers.  
    
    JD

     Runningham is a good QB.  he is not however an all-world guy
    like the media has tried to make him out to be.  He has great 
    scrambling ability, I'll give him that.  He has yet to prove
    that he can consistently throw the ball well or win the big 
    games.  That is all that I ment by overated. 
    
    Big Game

    Actually, though I don't like any injury - this injury to Runningham
    has a chance to make him a better QB.  One - he may not feel so
    invincible.  Two - his teammates may realize that they don't have to
    wait around for him to do something - which is what I felt the Eagles
    offense did too much of with Randall.
    
    JD

    
     Good point JD...  The Eagles always seemed to be waiting for
    Runningham to pull the rabbit out of his hat or something.  You
    know, I had the same feeling about the Donks before the got a 
    running game...  The rest of the offense and most of the defense 
    were waiting around for the magic show to begin before getting 
    into the game.
    
    Big Game

I think Random might just start sprinting out of the pocket everytime it looks
like he might get a lick now. This injury could make him go either way.

Random won't be a leader until he goes mano-a-mano with his coach on issues 
instead of bringing them all to the media first. He might have a disagreement
with the way the offense is being run but running to the papers about it is 
not the correct way to handle it.

BTW - "Doc" random was was getting blasted as overrated by members of this
conference long before he got hurt.....

We'll all have to wait and see...


Metz

	Runningham?  Overrated?  Well anytime the Eagles get sick of him 
send him to Foxboro!  I think a quarterback who can run is a valuable 
weapon and I disagree with those who say he can't find receivers.  If not 
for the fog the Eagles probably would've beaten the Bears and last year's 
loss to the Redskins happened because the Skins were the better team and 
Rypien did screw it up like he did against the 49ers.  A quarterback 
doesn't *have* to stay in the pocket to be effective.  That's just stodgy, 
conservative NFLspeak at it's best.  Hey I like Jimmy Mac and would love to 
see him take the Eagles to the playoffs, but Cunningham would be my starter 
when he got healthy.  

	Just because Randall is a name dropping (like I was telling Arsenio)
conceited jerk doesn't mean he ain't a great quarterback.  I would venture 
that at least 50% of the Jets felt the same way about Namath, but the man 
could play and so can Randall.  In my opinion Cunningham is a much better
quarterback at this point of his career than the recently deified Grogan was 
at the same point in his.

				/Don

                               
    > Just because Randall is a name dropping (like I was telling Arsenio)
> conceited jerk doesn't mean he ain't a great quarterback.  I would venture 
> that at least 50% of the Jets felt the same way about Namath, but the man 
> could play and so can Randall.  In my opinion Cunningham is a much better
> quarterback at this point of his career than the recently deified Grogan was 
> at the same point in his.
  
    Yeah, /Slasher, but as JD will tell you, Namath was an overrated
    bum who couldn't carry Phil Simms' jock, so that point is moot.
    
    Grogan's story is a regional phenomenon.  Because of his time of
    service and dedication to a mostly unsuccessful franchise, he's
    rightly recognized and honored as one of the Patriot "greats". 
    With some other franchises, he'd still have been good but just 
    another blip on the old quarterback timeline.
    
    I'd take Cunningham in a minute, too.  He's not the greatest or
    even close to the best QB in the league (and after he got hurt there 
    was the annoying spectacle of seeing him on ESPN or some other
    show each and every night for about a month-- but we've always gotten
    the same from McMahon, plus even more annoying commercial ventures), 
    but he's still pretty damn good...
    
    glenn
    
                      

    Glenn -
    
    HAHAHAHAHA.  I do think Namath was a td overated - but mostly I say his 
    role in Super Bowl III has been overrated and blown out of proportion. 
    Remember I said that teh Jets owed that victory to their fine, but
    often overlooked defense, and to Matt Snell (100+ yards) and Boozer.
    
    Dan and Namath jihad of course, said it was all Joe.  No one else.
    
    Namath was a good QB.  But he wasn't the best.  
    
    And for /Don - I don't think its that a big compliment to say
    Runningham is better than Grogan...
    
    JD
    
    
    
                           

    	Hey JD, if Simms had played for the Patriots he would've been 
    considered behind Babe Parilli.
    
    				/Don

    /Don -
    
    If SImms played for the Pats they'd probably have a champeenship ring.
    
    JD

    
     If Simms played for the Pats he would have retired from injuries and
    ringless years ago.

       If Simms played for the Pats the Gints would probably have 5 Super
    Bowl rings.
                                         Denny

       Actually, Simms DID play for the Pats
    Ken (Mr) Simms that is
                                    Denny

      Some QBs are better when they aren't in the pocket,  My man Elway is
    a prime example.  Just ask the defensive backs and linemen that play
    against him.
    
    	Tim

    
    If Simms played for the Pats, he'd be dead.
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    re .259
    
    Slasher, that was a MOST excellent note - until you started comparing
    Randall to Joe "The Flash" Namath.
    
    Don't blaspheme against Randall liek that again if you wish to ascend
    to your rightful claims ...
    
    But The Cunningham Jihad forgives you ... :-)
    
    Doc

    
    
     Look for the Eagles to Puond the Soilers into the ground tonight.
    Moon throws 3 INT's get sacked 5 times.  Final score  Eagles 24
    Soilers 10
    
    Big Game
    
    Jimmy Mac  Rules !!!
    

That, my friends, is how you stop the run-and-shoot.

Bob Hunt

What was the score?

>       <<< Note 52.272 by SCNDRL::HUNT "Fenestracryptographer Wannabe" >>>
>                             -< More to come ... >-
>
>That, my friends, is how you stop the run-and-shoot.
>
>Bob Hunt
    
 
    Awfully nice of Bill B. to show Bud Carson how to man-handle the Oilers..  
    Only problem is that the Browns don't have the pass rushers that the 
    Eagles do..  Reference below:
    
================================================================================
Note 56.774                     Cleveland Browns                      774 of 861
SNDCSL::HAUSRATH "Rockin' in the Free World"         23 lines  18-NOV-1991 08:35
                 -< Should be favored vs. Marty this weekend. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
 >>   I've gotta believe that the Oilers system is doomed based on what I saw 
 >>   last night.  It's obvious the way to beat the Oilers is to do exactly
 >>   what the Browns did.. lay back and HIT HIT HIT.  Without the threat 
 >>   of a power running attack it's extremely hard to protect your wide 
 >>   receivers from the type of abuse they took last night.  Four Oilers 
 >>   turnovers caused, I believe, by hard hitting and the threat of 
 >>   hard hits..  intimidation.   Remember, the Browns secondary is NOT
 >>   NFL caliber right now either.   
   

    thats why they call it the house of pain?

    
     Great Game.....  The Eagles are my NFC choice for team of the year.
    They have overcome all that has befallen them and come out the better
    for it.   The R&S, while not dead may need to be modified to better
    protect the receivers and provide some kind of running game.  Maybe,
    they could implement some form of option for moon to bring it down and
    run with one of the receivers playing the pitch man.  This would
    tighten up the defense of the other team and may just save Drew Hill's
    life.  The eagle are playing inspired ball.  The need to keep Jimmy
    Mac healthy.  If they do they will be a contender !!!
    
    Big Game
    
     Bet Drew's still in bed today nursing his sore A$$ !!  ;^0

    The Eagles, and other teams, are simply employing the defensive scheme
    - and the game plan - that the Giants used to beat the high-powered,
    unstoppable Bills in last year's Super Bowl.  Big guys hitting little
    guys.  You make them pay on every down.  You wear them down.  You
    control the clock (like the Eagles did on that last drive...)
    
    If you remember last year, Andre Reed started off like a house of fire
    - going over the middle and making catches - but each time he touched
    the ball - he got rocked - many times by a linebacker like Reasons or
    Martin.  Then he started getting rocked on every play.  Then he made
    that catch over the middle and Myron Guyton almost took his haid off. 
    After that, Andre was a non-factor - he stopped at the corner, looked
    both ways, and waited for the "WALK" sign to flash before he went over
    the middle.  He started dropping balls.
    
    Last night, the Eagles did that also - even on a catch - they popped
    the guy.  The Oilers have really small receivers - I'd think they need
    to get a real tight end or a big receiver that can handle that
    punishment.   By the end of the season, Givins and Hill are going to be
    almost daid.  They only have one game left at the house pain - and
    finish on the road.  They have to pull it together - or they go into
    the playoffs on a downswing.  
    
    They have NO running game.  21 yards last night.  
    
    The Eagles, Mr. Hunts' bad boys, are playing INSPIRED football - Seth
    Joyner is, IMO, one of the best linebackers in the league.  No one, I
    repeat no one, is going to want to meet up with them in the playoffs. 
    With that defense, they can go a long way...
    
    JD

    13-6?  Geez, with all of the chest thumping and Oiler bashing going on
    in here I thought the game was a blowout.

    Mac, what do you expect from the Oiler bashers ?
    
    You have to remember that most of them are Giants' fans, and they
    aren't going anywhere, so why not jump on a bandwagon ?
    
    I admit, that with the exception of Jeffries (6'2"), the Oilers' WR's
    are tiny. And I've been a big advocate of modifying the R&S to make it
    even harder to stop. 
    
    But please remember that the Eagles' D played about as well as they can
    play. And it still was a game until the last pass.
    
    Furthermore, you can only hit what you can catch. You can't hit a WR
    you can't cover. Most teams can't cover Givens' and crew ....
    
    As for the running game, I'll be damned if I know where it went.

    13-6, and 5 or 6 turnovers by the Oiler offense, plus numerous passes
    that bounced off WR's palms.  Houston had their chance to win this
    game but had 1 turnover too many.  They still almost sent the game into
    overtime as it was.
    
    The Eagle defense won this game.  Intimidation was a big factor.
    
    Scott

    Mac (explaing Doc )
    
    Actually, I'm the only Giants fan bashing the poor Oilers.  And
    bandwagon jumping I am not.  As always - I'll stick with the Jints.
    However, I freely admit rooting for Philly last night - even though
    their win could only hurt the little playoff chance the Jints have
    left.
    
    As for the Jints - I reserve most of my comments, and criticisms, for
    the Jints notesfile.
    
    As for the Eagles - as someone who enjoys good defense before offense,
    I can only admire the Eagles defense.  They intimidated the Oiler
    offense, and the Oilers couldn't run the ball.  Last night the Oiler
    offense was more like "Fumble and shake".
    
    JD

And to kind of reinforce what JD is saying:


I'm a Jints fan and I'm not bashing the Oilers.  Granted, I'll admit I've
never liked them, and have always rooted against them, but I'm not in
here bashing them.

Like JD, I was glad that Philly won.  There's a part of me that takes
a perverse pleasure in seeing Handley flounder around.

And contrary to what Doc says, Giants fans are not bashing the Oilers
because the Giants are having a bad year.  No one is bashing the Giants
more than Giants fans, because we abhor seeing so much potential wasted,
as Handley has this year.


Hope this clears up the obfuscated picture,
'Saw

    `Saw...   Handely has really got you up in arms.  Let it go big
    guy,  the Midgets season is over.
    
    Big Game

>    `Saw...   Handely has really got you up in arms.  Let it go big
>    guy,  the Midgets season is over.

I know that.

One thing I can't abide is for someone or a team not to reach maximum
potential.

Look at the Eagles.  They're season seemed to go down the tubes in Game
One.

Mac comes in, gets banged up, but guts it out week after week.

The coaches are going full out, the players are going full out, all the
fans are going full out....


Meanwhile, in East Rutherford, stupid Handley is blaming the press....


'Saw

     Gotcha...  The guy is a bum.  I think that pushing him for the head
    coachs job when he left was Bill's biggest mistake in NJ.  To bad,
    The Midgets do have talent.
    
    Big Game
    
    Don't tell DiNzMoRe I said that though !
    

>     Gotcha...  The guy is a bum.  I think that pushing him for the head
>    coachs job when he left was Bill's biggest mistake in NJ.  To bad,
>    The Midgets do have talent.
>    
>    Big Game
>    
>    Don't tell DiNzMoRe I said that though !


Yeah.

I think a whole series of mistakes occured.

First they promoted Handley to offensive coordinator.  Then when Parcells
left he became the head coach, and I think he own arrogance prompted
him to stay on in both positions.

On the defensive side, Groh can't come CLOSE to what Belichick could
do.  Bill was superb at making changes to adapt to the situation, Groh
can't...


Oh well....


'Saw    

    Handly/Game coach = Joe B Hall/Game coach
    
    (Sorry Wildcat!)

Since we're on the subject - 

Is Handley in danger of beign fired at the end of the season?   It seem that if
makes it through the season, the pressure may let up a little next season, and 
the Giants can get an idea if the guy can really coach.

=Bob=

    
    
       Don't know 'bout Saw or JD but I certainly hope so.  He 
    has taken a finely-tuned, championship-caliber football team 
    and turned it into sputtering remnant of what it once was.  
    The image of him just sitting there, like Dudley Do-Right, 
    while the Bengal KR returned the punt for a TD said it all.
    And he certainly didn't endear himself to the media by 
    throwing a tantrum after the game vs. Tampa.  They'll be
    all over him like stink on s(&# from here on out.  
    
       He needs to be thrown head-first into the East River.  
    
    						 glen j.

    I think it's all but obvious that he can't coach.  The man
    has taken a talented football team and turned them into a 
    loser.
    
    Big Game

Perhaps we should move this to the NFL topic (unless Bob Hunt is getting
a woody over the Giants misery 8^))

I don't think Handley is in any danger of being fired.  That's why I'm 
so pissed.

I think the Giants management will pass the whole thing off like this:

		Well there was the Super Bowl let down and then
		Parcells left, Belichick left....handley had two
		strikes against him already....



I remember Parcells first year.  Before he came the Giants had sucked
pond water for YEARS.  Then he came.  We were all down on him because
we didn't see things happen quick enough.  BUT, over the course of that
miserable first season we did see things improve and show promise.

Handley is the opposite.

He took a team that was the best in pro football, a team loaded with talent,
and he totally futzed it up.  Seifert didn't do that in San Fran, yet
Handley managed to do it in New York.  How, you might ask.

I think that in his arrogance Handley decided that he was going to make
this HIS TEAM.  Overnight, he changed the complexion of the team, most
visibly with his QB choice.

Hoss is a damn good QB, but I'm convinced after seeing this season unfold,
that he hasn't developed the leadership ability of Simms.  You can say
what you want about Phil Simms, but he is one of the most intense 
competitors I've ever seen in any sport, and he fires the guys on the field
up.


What Handly should have done, IMO, was to subtley work his identity on the
team.  As the "Parcells Veterans" depart either by retirement or free
agency, then let the new people who replace them be Handley's guys.

But arrogant Bozo Ray decided, this is MY team NOW.

Handley also forgot that at team which has been borned and raised by 
a highly motivating coach is not, overnight, going to learn to motivate
itself.   And I disagree with the thought that a team motivates itself
anyway.  The players are motivated to play, but the coach motivates
THE TEAM....


Anyway, enough of my babbling.  Let's continue this in the NFL topic...


'Saw

I'm smart enough not to go hyper-woodiferous on the Jints problems until 
*after* this Sunday's game with the Iggles at Hoffa's Tomb.

If the Iggles can put the still dangerous Jints outta their misery, then my 
woody index will be spikin' upwards to be sure.  If the Jints win, you guys 
will think Handley is the second coming.

Bob Hunt

>If the Jints win, you guys 
>will think Handley is the second coming.

Bob, you're right

NOT....

I don't care if the Giants do miraculously make the playoffs.  The only
bigger bozo in the world than Handley is Connecticut's Governor Weicker...


hth,
'Saw

    `Saw,  Wardle said the same thing when I was out visiting him...
    What is it about the Conn. Governor you guys are so cranked up about ?
    
    Big game

>    What is it about the Conn. Governor you guys are so cranked up about ?
    

Well, he's butted heads with the Assembly ever since he got in office.
First he said that adding an income tax would be like putting gas on 
a fire.  Then he turned around and did it.

The vote for the income tax in the Assembly actually had failed (he'd vetoed
every proposal they'd come up with that wasn't income tax).   They were
two votes short.  Then mysteriously later in the afternoon, two key no
votes were absent.  One had been sent home sick, and I forget what the deal
on the other was.

At any rate, they put in the Income Tax, the state is totally up in arms,
and the legislature is considering/debating repeal, yet he still threatens
to veto a repeal.

Their projected revenue from the Sales Tax is down (who has money to spend
on anything -- I don't), and the economy is getting more and more f___ed
up by the day because people don't have the $$$ to pump into it...


ARgh....

Thanks...


btw, I have a feeling that the Eagles will probably beat the Giants on 
Sunday....

 While Handley and Groh are part of the problem the majority of the BLAM(tm)
 has to go to the Fat Head Big Ass Attitude of the defensive players. They are
 supposed to be professional but they sure aren't acting like it this year...

 Let see it worked for Chris yesterday so the Giants chance of winning sunday
 are 2..

  1. slim
  2. none

 Philly's defense has owned us for so long it's put grey in my once black
 beard....yeah they've also contributed to the partial solar panel as well.

 if the Giants score more than 10 I'll be shocked....if the defense gets it
 act together though 10 could be enough to win this one....

    re Conn Gov - just like in New Jersey - it's easy to blam the current
    governor - while forgetting that the predessors made the mess that the
    current guy has to clean up.  Kean (?) in NJ made a big mess, and came
    off smelling like a rose.  
    
    JMHO
    
    JD

    `Saw... Didn't mean to crank you up,  just wanted to know what the
    deal was...  Sorry !
    
    Big Game

Yes, JD, you're right.  I didn't put that in, but 10 years of Rummy O'Neill's
administration put us in dire straits.

However, Weicker thinks he's gonna make it all up in one year on the 
backs of the middle class.  It cain't be done.....


Big Game, you didn't get me cranked too bad.


Mike, the D has been lax is some respects, but when opposing offenses figure
out the weak points, Groh doesn't have the gray matter to compensate quick
enough....


Philly to win by 4....


'Saw

    =Bob+
    
    Seinfeld is quickly turning into one of my favs.  I've yet to watch a
    show that didn't give me at least one bellylaugh.  Last night, however,
    was a classic.  Only real slow part was Elaine feeding the guy - but
    the rest was a riot.  And the stuff parodies real life situations real
    well - like the whole rental-car skit.  I was rolling when Seinfeld and
    Elaine were mimicking what really goes on in clerk-supervisor talks.
    
    And of course, Kramer is a complete riot.
    
    Oh yeah, this is the Eagles note - so I'll say that they'll beat the
    Giants cuz Handley is a lot like the little balding glasses guy on
    Seinfeld.
    
    :-)
    
    JD

    And Kramer's line that really killed me was he was asked
    if Mia Farrow was at the set....
    
    " Mia farrow, who is he?"

    I liked the intra-organ chess match a few weeks back!
    
    Go_Eagles.
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

	You 'Jint fans ragging on Handley crack me up.  You really think 
Parcells would have this team in first place?  Not me.  Bill is going to 
take a job somewhere with mega-powers and mega-money.  Why?  Because 
everyone's memory of him is being carried off the field after last year's 
Super Bowl.  Bill could see LT was losing it and so was the rest of the 
Giant's defense.  He got out while the getting was good and will profit 
from it quite handsomely.  Had Bill stayed one more year Mike and 'Saw 
wouldn't be cannonizing him and that chopping block they're readying for 
Handley would have Parcells written all over it.

	 			/Don

Wrong, O Carnac of Sports.  Wrong, wrong, wrong....


hth,
'Saw

    
     I'm no Midgets fan but I have to agree with the `Saw...  Handely has
    mismanaged the Midgets talent.  L.T. will be a dominate factor in the
    NFL for at very least 2 more years.  The Midgets have the personnel,
    they just don't have the coaching talent they had when they were at
    the top of the NFC !!
    
    Big Game

    I have to agree with Slasher. Parcells did what Lombardi did - and
    there is no shame in that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Giants
    didn't exactly set the league on fire the year after they beat Denver
    in the SB either, right ?
    
    Doc

>    I have to agree with Slasher. Parcells did what Lombardi did - and
>    there is no shame in that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Giants
>    didn't exactly set the league on fire the year after they beat Denver
>    in the SB either, right ?
    
They had the best record in the NFL that year, I believe at 14-2.

They DOMINATED throughout the playoffs. Holding San Fran to 3 points,
Washington to 0 points, and Denver to a mere 20, most scored against
the second string, late.


Parcells was, first and foremost, a MOTIVATOR.  Players motivate themselves
to play, the coach motivates the TEAM.  Parcells did that extremely
well, and got them to execute, execute, execute.

The Giants have had a slight talent dip since 1986, BUT, there is no
excuse for the disparity between last year and this but for Handley
and Groh...

Two no brainers.....


'Saw

    The Giants had a bad falloff the year after their first Super Bowl win,
    I think worse than this year.  They may have even finished last - I'll
    have to check.  They had a lot of players writing books and doing
    appearances, and the same thing seems to have happened this year. 
    Unlike 1987, this year featured a bona-fide QB controversy as well as a
    coaching change.
    
    In their first Super Bowl, I believe Denver had a 10-9 win at one point
    in the game before the Giants got out to their big lead.
    
    John

Well I see Slasher with the tarheel's association comes a free license to
make assumptions. I've been one of the least critical Giants' fan as far
as Handley goes and have layed most of the blame on the defense's lack
of a professional attitude. Instead of following the 49ers lead and showing
Walsh it was them not him that made them what they were (maybe still are)
the Giants chose to use Parcell's a crutch...

and if were only yanking my chain good job.....

;^)

    You're right, John...  There were some bad calls against the Donks
    at the end of the half that set up the safety and the begining of the 
    end for the Donks SB victory hope.  Oh well,  Maybe this year...
    
    Big Game

    Thanks John, Saw evaded my question (I'm disappointed in ya kid !), 
    but it's like I figured, a combination of SB letdown, QB controversey,
    new coach, and less talent than people thought. 
    
    Even with Parcells, the Giants would be at best 9-5. Probably 8-6.
    
    Doc

>    You're right, John...  There were some bad calls against the Donks
>    at the end of the half that set up the safety and the begining of the 
>    end for the Donks SB victory hope.  Oh well,  Maybe this year...
    
Wrong, oh Big Game, sir...

Trying to run wide into the arms of Carl Banks on several critical third
downs started the downslide, as well as the wonderful shank-jobs by
Barefoot Carliss.

That's where the momentum shifted....


'Saw

[many 8^)]

Doc,

Sorry, I didn't see "the year after".  I thought you meant the year
they won.

The year after was the strike season.  Parcells did nothing with the 
replacement players, since he felt the strike would be over quickly.

At any rate, they played like sh*t and their record showed.


The letdown this year was in coaching.  Handley ran a Country Club
for training camp.

The talent is not that much different, although I think this miss Bavaro
a lot....

'Saw

    Some of you guys appear to be a little lost.  The Giants topic is #89.

    Hey `Saw...  You know the Donks were the better team in the Bowl
    the year they played the Midgets....  ;^)
    
    Lets see,  I'll pull one out of the `Spots Bag-O-Tricks...
    
     "It was an excellent loss though"
    
    ;^)
    
    Big Game

    
      Didn't the GIANTS beat the Donks during the regular season
    @ the Mecca that year('86)?  
    
      Maybe Mr. Hendry can help.
    
    
    						 glen j.

    
>      Didn't the GIANTS beat the Donks during the regular season
>    @ the Mecca that year('86)?  
    
    Yea, they did, but I can't remember the score.  It was close though,
    something like 19-16.
    
    
    Joe
 

      Yes the jints beat the donks in regular season,  and the deciding
    factor was the Elway (I think) fumble that Marshal returned for a TD. 
    He ran that sucker back about 85-90 yards.
    
      Why are youze giys talking all this jints stuff in the philly note?
    
    
    	Tim

    Whats it to ya Tim  ;^)
    
     Yea,  I remember that play.  Elway tried to tackle him and he was
    shaken off like a rag doll.  Really pissed my off.  I really don't
    want to start a rat hole here so I retract my statement !!
    
    Big Game

It was an interception, and the DL was George Martin, who I think was
either the Giants all-time leader for INTY's by a DL, or the ALL-TIME
leader... I forget.

Elway tried to lob a screen pass, Martin stuck up one of those big paws,
batted it to himself, and was off to the races.  At one point he thought
of making a lateral to LT, but then just kept it.

The hardest hit he took on the play was when LT tackled him with glee
in the end zone.

Giants won on a FG set up by a nice, long, 3rd down catch by my main
man, Phil McConkey....



The reason all this is in the Iggles note is because us Giants fan want
to get under all the Iggles fans skin, because the Iggles have been
dominating us for quite sometime 8^)


'Saw
    

> It was an interception, and the DL was George Martin, who I think was
> either the Giants all-time leader for INTY's by a DL, or the ALL-TIME
> leader... I forget.

  you mean to say the great John Elway was throwing interceptions as a way
  of life even back then? tisk tisk..

 Actually Saw what Martin is (besides sorely missed) is the Giants all-time
 leader in TD by a DL with 6....

 mike 

    Childs...  I'm glad that you've finally come around and are willing
    to admit the Elway is Great, Elway is Gawd !  You truly possess all
    it takes to fulfill your P-Name...  You are a hit & Run Noter.
    
    Big Game

    I'm looking for game summary/individual stats. from the
    Monday Dec. 2 game Philly at Houston. Can anyone help?
    
    Michael

    Jimmy Johnson removed the last monkey from his back yesterday.  Philly
    was the only division team the Cowboys hadn't beaten in his 3 years. 
    Yesterday was a great win also because it put the Cowboys back in the
    playoffs.
    
    Dallas played great defense yesterday.  7 sacks and 2 int's.  The Eagle
    defense on the other hand could only manage 1 sack after getting 11 in
    the third game of the season.  This Cowboy team has matured rather
    nicely.  The key to this game was obviously Kelvin Martin's punt return
    for a TD.  That gave the Cowboys the spark they needed.  Also the drive
    for the TD in the fourth quarter after Philly cut the lead to 15-13 was
    key.  Fouts was all wet on the block Ike Holt put on the Philly guy to
    break Martin for the TD.  I watched the reply several times, and Holt
    did not go for the guys head.  I wasn't very impressed with Fout's
    commentary.
    
    WILDCAT

    Hawk, McMahon saw no action.  If he had, Dallas might have had even
    more sacks.  Kemp escaped a couple with his foot speed.  McMahon
    however would've provided much more leadership IMO.
    
    WILDCAT

 Iggles crashed and burned yesterday.   Once again, the weakness at
 quarterback was key.   They actually had a decent ground game for a change
 but Jeff Kemp just couldn't generate any decent numbers or points.
 
 With the offense stalled, it once again put pressure on the defense to
 play a near perfect game and after six straight weeks of incredible
 defense, it just wasn't there.
 
 The Iggles are now a longshot to make the playoffs and they have only
 themselves to blame.   Two areas of blame ... 1) They are now 3-4 at home
 and there is just no excuse for playing poorly in your own stadium.  And
 2), the Tampa Bay loss in Week 6.  No way in hell should they have lost
 that one.   The front office failed to get a replacement for McMahon and
 it cost them dearly against the pathetic Bucs.
 
 In retrospect, they won the "wrong" games.   According to the tie-breaker
 rules, their 4 wins against the AFC Central buy them almost nothing.   I'd
 much rather trade those 4 wins in exchange for the losses to Phoenix,
 Tampa Bay, New Orleans, and San Francisco.   Now they have almost no
 tie-breaker advantages inside the NFC.
 
 If their season does indeed end next Sunday, I will remember the 1991
 Eagles as the most dominating and most powerful defense I've ever seen in
 Philly.  Ever.
 
 Bob Hunt

    In waching most of that game, I saw a sequence that showed, IMO, the
    disparity in rules - on the same drive, Allen was called for a
    defensive penalty on Irvin,when Allen slipped, Irvin ran over him, and
    allen grabbed him down.  Penalty.  I can live with it.  Same drive,
    Irvin catches a TD pass.  On replay, Irvin shoves ALlen (they are in
    the end zone) on a blatant push off.  No penalty.  IMO, both are
    penalties.  How the heck can a defender defend if he can get shoved out
    of the way.
    
    Overall, however, the game was decided in the trenches.  The Eagles
    just didn't put enough pressure on Beuerlein, and on the other side,
    they couldn't protect Kemp.
    
    Of course, I though they shoulda just had Jackson go over the middle
    for short dump passes, cuz the Cowboys were rushing the passer hard.  A
    few of them, and they might slow up a bit...
    
    JD

Well, with the Saints win over the Raiders on Monday night, the Iggles are 
officially eliminated from playoff contention.   

In the short-term analysis, the loss to Dallas on Sunday afternoon was the 
killer blow but, as I explained earlier, the team's real reason for missing 
out on a fourth straight post-season trip was the four-game losing streak 
in October that left zero margin of error in December.   And the Tampa Bay 
loss in that four-game horror show was the worst of all.

Two dominant themes for the 1991 Eagles ... defense and quarterback.   

The Eagles' defense was the finest I've ever seen.   I don't know how they 
stack up against other famous defensive units in NFL history but they most 
certainly carved out some "space" for themselves.   Two games stand out in 
particular, both played in Texas.   Week 3 saw the Eagles completely 
overwhelm the Cowboys with 11 sacks of Aikman and allowing only 90 total 
yards and zero points.    And Week 13 saw them physically punish the Oilers 
and virtually shut down their high-octane run-n-shoot.

Should be several Pro Bowlers from this unit ... Reggie White, Seth Joyner, 
Jerome Brown, Clyde Simmons, and Eric Allen for sure.    Wes Hopkins, Byron 
Evans, and Mike Pitts have outside shots, too.

Quarterback, as everyone knows, was a disaster as Randall Cunningham went 
down on the first play of the 2nd quarter in Week 1.   Jim McMahon won a 
lot of praise for his heart, guts and his drive to win but he proved to be 
just as brittle as feared.   I had hoped that last year's light workload 
behind Cunningham gave Jimmy Mac a chance to heal some but it was not to be.  
Pat Ryan, Brad Goebel, and Jeff Kemp were eminently forgettable although 
Kemp did rally them to the points needed to beat the Oilers and then won 
the Jints game in Jersey.   Randall should be re-installed as the starter 
nexted season (assuming his rehab completes on time) and Jimmy Mac should 
be kept on as the backup.   However, the brain trust must take the heat for 
not acquiring a quality third backup and must fix this problem nexted year.

The running game was pretty poor all year long although James Joseph and 
Keith Byars started showing some spark in the late going.   I think running 
back ought to be the top draft priority.   Byars is a superb football 
player with outstanding hands but he just doesn't have the foot quickness 
to hit the holes.   The team needs a franchise back ... it wasn't a great 
year for college backs but there ought to be some good ones available.   if 
not through the draft, then perhaps a trade.   I hesitate in suggesting a 
name like Dickerson but that's the kind of back talent that hasn't been 
seen in Philly since Wilbert Montgomery's salad days.

Wide receivers are fine.  Fred Barnett, Calvin Williams, and Roy Green are 
a fine trio.  I hope they keep Green again nexted year.   He may not have 
broken the long ones like he used to but he got open consistently.   Keith 
Jackson can play tight end in Philly as long as he wants to.   His numbers 
are down this year because Cunningham went down but he was every bit as 
effective as ever.

The kicking game is in great shape.   Roger Ruzek has had a great year 
hitting like about 26 outta 30 and Jeff Feagles is a very solid punter with 
a knack for the coffin corner placements.    His fumbled snap was a killer 
in the Tampa Bay loss so I'd like to see him work on his hands a bit.   The 
return game was average ... no big breakers but no really devastating 
fumbles, either.   The kick coverage teams were not bad but they did blow 
it big time on Sunday against the Pokes.

Coaching was above average to very good.   Picking up Bud Carson was 
beautiful.   His Rudeness never had this defense playing at this level.  
Yes, Ryan did put the pieces together but Carson fine-tuned them into a 
killer unit.   Kotite was alright.   He had his hands tied behind him when 
Cunningham went down but, to his credit, we didn't see any of the feared 
backlash from the Ryan firing.   In a way, Randall's injury made Ryan a 
forgotten figure and the team rallied behind McMahon.   Some of that 
"rally" has to be Kotite's credit. But, you have to point at Kotite and the 
rest of the brass for the failure to get a McMahon backup.   I keep going 
back to this theme but it rings ever so true.   The Eagles killed 
themselves during the 2-game stretch (Tampa Bay and New Orleans) in October 
when Brad Goebel ran (not!) the team.

Not bad ... Coulda, shoulda, woulda ...

Bob Hunt 

    Too bad about the Eagles,  I really wanted to see 'em make it !

Well, Bob, tonight at 9pm, sit down and have a beer.
I'll do the same, and we can remotely commiserate about our teams'
failures....


'Saw

    Well well,
    
    	At least it feels good to have beaten Washington with our 5th
    string QB.
    
    Bob
    

Not to take anything away from the Eagles, who turned in a superb season
given their problems, but how many folks wonder, as I do, if Gibbs
didn't really care, especially in light that it's easier to motivate his
troops after a loss than a win....

I only glanced at the game in the second half (was baking for our holiday
lunch today) but didn't Washington have a lot of second stringers in????


'Saw

The skins were just trying to get out of this week healthy......


The game meant nothing to them...


Metz

 A superb end to an overall satisfying season.   Personally, I don't care
 how many second-stringers were in there playing for Washington at the end.  
 As mentioned, the Iggles were on their fifth quarterback of the year.  All
 that matters is that the Skins finished at 14-2, not 15-1.
 
 There are several positives to take from the final win ... 10-6 is
 *infinitely* better than 9-7.  Somehow that double-digit win column just
 feels a helluva lot more impressive.   
 
 Also, finishing the season with a win is a new thing for these Iggles.   
 Don't get me wrong, the goal is to make the playoffs and win the Supe,
 everyone knows that.   But the 1991 Iggles somehow look just a little bit
 better without that final numbing playoff loss that invites all the nasty
 backstabbing and off-season moans and groans.   It is an illusion, to be
 sure, but the feeling is there all the same.
 
 Tampa Bay, Tampa Bay, Tampa Bay ... heavy, heavy sigh.   The '91 Iggles
 went 7-1 during the second half of the season ... they had to go 8-0,
 though.   Too bad ...
 
 Bob Hunt

    
    But Bob, ifn ya had beat TB, and gone 8-0, you'd have had the "numbing
    playoff loss." 8^)
    
    Brews

> There are several positives to take from the final win ... 10-6 is
> *infinitely* better than 9-7.  Somehow that double-digit win column just
> feels a helluva lot more impressive.   
 
I forget who said it, and what the circumstances were, but evidence
shows that there is a WORLD of difference between 10-6 and 9-7......

Congrats on a fine end to the season.....


'Saw

       Someone said over in the Pats file that the Iggles are trying to
    trade Reggie White. Anybody know if this is true and why?
                                       Denny

    Some people in Philadelphia (read the media) are trying to get the
    Eagles to trade White for a 1st round draft choice, which they would
    use to get a running back. The other name being tossed about as
    "available" is Keith Jackson.
    
    I think the Eagles hsould stand pat, wait for Randall to come back and
    get a real backup QB, that won't break when he get's looked at. I think
    James Joseph may be the answer at RB. He looked pretty good until he
    injured his ankle, imparing his speed. One thing the birds need is some
    help in their secondary, where Ben Smith will probably mis most of next
    season. A couple of OL and a young DL would be a help too.
    
    Dennis
    

> If Randall returns to form (perhaps with a little better understanding of
> the total word "team" this time) and the offensive line gets some much


Bob, that's an awful lot to expect from Mr. Ego.......

hth,
'Saw

> If Randall returns to form (perhaps with a little better understanding of
> the total word "team" this time) and the offensive line gets some much


>>> Bob, that's an awful lot to expect from Mr. Ego.......


  Not really Saw. All's he's got to do is become friends with his teammates.
  He certainly knows how to get everyone involved in the offense word "team"
  so making friends with them shouldn't be hard. Acknowledge the "D" and he's
  on his way....

 and anybody who would trade Reggie White for a draft pick is nuts. Jackson
 well maybe I can see it a little given that he's supposedly uncontent. Given
 that they don't run a great deal all's they need is a guy with good hands
 at the posistion. Plenty of them around.

 mike

    
    As a Giants fan, I'd love to see the Iggles trade White.  I think you'd
    then see how average Simmons is.  White takes an awful lot of pressure
    off of the rest of the dl.  But, the Iggles will need a running game to
    be a threat for the SB.
    
    Brews

    You see, when your team makes the playoffs and they advance to
    the championship game, maybe even this note will be active in
    January of some year. ;*)
    
    BoB

What's your beef ???   You trying to annoy the Iggles fans ???   That's 
okay, no problem.   Iggles and Donks meet nexted year.   We'll see how it 
goes.

Bob Hunt

> <<< Note 52.351 by SCNDRL::HUNT "Night Of The Psycho Chainsaws From Space" >>>


Bob,

Did you throw that last p-name out the window?

TTom

Re: recent p-names ...

I just picked up a brand new copy of a Microsoft Press book entitled 
"Visual Basic Workshop".   Comes with a 1.2 Mb floppy full of sample Visual 
Basic programs.   First one up for study is called MOVIES.EXE.   Simple 
"fortune cookie" type of program that mixes different columns of word 
together to form interesting movie titles.

Swear to God ... First one I double-clicked on was something like:

   "Revenge Of The Underground Mutant Chainsaws From Detroit IV"

So, in honor of our illustrious NOTY, I switched to a new one.

Bob Hunt

    Every team will be playing in January nexted year since the regular
    season ends the weekend of January 3.
    
    Ninj

    What's the beef? I thought I might ask you that. Yes I rememeber
    the last Eagles Broncos game. I also remember another occasion 
    where the Broncos pasted them. What's the point?
    
    BoB

 Never mind, BoB.  After reading your original reply, I've decided that I
 don't know what the heck you're talkin' about. 
 
 Something about the Iggles note and the month of January.  Beyond that, I
 can only guess ...
 
 Bob Hunt

    Hey...  Who the Hell is NOTY any how !!
    
    BG

    On a footbal related topic, the Eagles OL coach Bill Walsh "retired"
    yesterday and the contract for his assistant Dan Neal was not renewed.
    Sounds like Kotite wasn't real happy with the blocking schemes. Maybe
    they can hire Hanifan from the Redskins.
    
    Dennis
    

>    Hey...  Who the Hell is NOTY any how !!
    
me.

'Saw

    Yea...  I got that from another note...  Thanks.
    
     I'm sure it was a close race between you and MrT...
    
    BG
    
    P.s.  You deserved it no matter what everyone else says !!
    
    

    Is it true what I hear about Phillydelphia Beagle fans clamoring
    for Hooshow Walker on the radio talk shows?  Cain it be true that
    these (once proud) fans are actually DEMANDING that Hooshow be
    signed?!  Are they really "honking for Hooshow" as they drive by
    Veterans Stadium?
    
    MrT

    re: -1
    
    Yup, they're doing that and more in Philadelphia. Walker was in town
    this week, but I was not, so I don't know any local reaction. I heard
    that Kotite is still "evaluating the situation."
    
    Dennis
    

Might as well make an attempt to digest the latest two pieces of Iggles news 
... 1) the signing of Herschel Walker and 2) the death of Jerome Brown.

Walker ... Yes, if you go back through this note, you'll see several 
of my replies "suggesting" that signing Walker would be a mistake.   
Certainly, signing the same player who performed so miserably in Minnesota 
would be a huge blunder.

But (you knew that was coming) ... if you step back and look at the numbers, 
perhaps there's hope after all.  Even lasted season when the Vikes were 
miserable and Herschel was the worst villain of all, he *still* rushed for 
825 yards, a 4.5 yards per carry average, and scored 10 touchdowns.   

Those numbers are better than *any* other Iggles running back over the past 5 
seasons or more ... with the exception of Randall Cunningham.  And wasn't 
that the chief criticism of the Birds' offense ???  The Eagles wouldn't (and 
didn't) go anywhere with a quarterback pushing the 1,000 yard mark on the 
ground and leading the team in rushing, right ???

Last season, as the Iggles struggled early on to cope with the loss of 
Cunningham, the team ground attack was averaging *less* than 2.0 yards per 
carry which was the worst in the league by far and was the worst average seen 
on any NFL team over the past 30 years or so.

If Herschel Walker can average 4.5 yards a carry (which is also his *career* 
average) and score double figures in touchdowns and take some of the 
scrambling load off a rehabbed Cunningham, then his $700K contract is dirt 
cheap ... plus he's not wearing burgundy and gold and playing down the road 
in DC, either.

Jerome Brown ... What a devastating loss to the Eagles front four.  I sat in 
amazement lasted year in watching what was easily the finest Iggles defense I 
have ever seen and what was one of the NFL's all-time best units as well.  
They led the NFL in both rushing *and* passing defense and Brown was a huge 
factor in both areas.   

The Eagles have capable backups in Mike Pitts and Mike Golic but Brown was 
entering his prime.  He was a two-time Pro Bowler and had nothing stopping 
him from further greatness.    Can not be replaced any time soon.   Sad 
ending for a very promising player.

Bob Hunt

    small nit (aren't they all!!!),
    
    Walker averaged 4.166666666 yards per carry last year!!!
    
    
    HTH,
    
    Nelly

 With the death of All-Pro Jerome Brown, the Iggles find themselves thinner
 on the defensive front line than they had planned.   With Mike Pitts
 nursing some nagging injuries, they're down to Mike Golic in the middle.
 
 Rumors have it that the Iggs are looking to make a deal with the Bears for
 the Fridge ... or the Niners for Michael Carter ... or the Chargers for
 Joe Phillips.
 
 I'd deal for any one of them.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Pushing reggie to middle and bring in leon seals from buffalo? does
    this sound right you don't get good reporting out here unless it's for
    those disgusting critters from denver. I guy who misses smash mouth
    football. I get the philly news paper on sunday which gets here on
    thursday. so keep these notes rolling.
    
    
    			Be back in march
    		           Dave

Twas a good win for the Iggles.  Walker was the biggest surprise of week 1, and 
the defense must have been strong.

I read in the paper that Cunningham looked a little rusty.  Was that true?

=Bob=

    
 >>				  I think Dan Fouts was right when he
 >>commented that the Saints seem content at times to just get into Morten
 >>Andersen's considerable range.
    
    Bob,
    
    That's been a sore spot here in Pittsburgh for a few years also, in the
    past few years it seemed that once the Steelers got into Gary
    Anderson's range, they'd go ultra conservative and just take the 3.
    
    Hopefully, with Cowher at the top, he won't be content to just take the
    three, although Anderson did have 3 FG's in the game against Houston.
    
    JaKe
    
                                                                       
    

 Randall did indeed look rusty trying to avoid the rush.  He fumbled three
 times trying to escape the Saints pressure.   When he had the time or when
 he did avoid the rush, Cunningham hit on 85% of his tosses.  Ain't no rust
 on the arm, that's for sure.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Gee, Bob, although he had a good pass percentage, he still didn't look
    confortable in the pocket and didn't hit the receivers in stride. He
    threw the TD pass to Walker badly (Walker had to do a 360 to catch it).
    He was never the most acvcurate passer on his best days, but he has
    been worse this season. I think it's just rust because he hasn't played
    bery much in preseason. 
    
    The Cardinals scare the snot out of me. They *always* play the Eagles
    tough.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

 You've got a good point, Dennis.  Randall did not really go deep at all
 yesterday and those he did connect on were mostly high-percentage passes
 to backs like Byars and Walker or to wideouts in the flat like Williams
 and Dixon.  The scoring 20+ yarder to Fred Barnett to open the 4th quarter
 was a beauty, though.
 
 This was not his best game.  Of that there is *no* doubt.  But I was
 awfully glad to see him back in there and I'll take the precious "W"
 however it comes.   Hopefully, he just needs the reps.  Perhaps that's too
 optimistic.   We'll just have to see.
 
 I agree with you about Phoenix.  It seems like every year we get the Cards
 early in the first coupla games and we lay a big stinker against 'em.  
 Usually it's at The Vet though.  This year it's in Phoenix where the Iggs
 are unbeaten.  
 
 I know that lasted year they were missing Rosenbach and Tom Tupa (of all
 the stiffs) shredded them in Week 2.   Maybe this year, if Rosenbach has
 to sit again, the Eagles will be better prepared for his replacement. 
 
 I'd like to get the feeling that the Iggs are on a "mission" this year to
 win big for the late Jerome Brown.  I know it's too early but it would be
 nice for a change to see them have a monster season.  I think they can do
 it.  The Saints are *not* a candy-ass team.   The NFC East will be a Holy
 War this year.   Four extremely tough teams.
 
 Bob Hunt

    What happened with Ruzek and his PATs. Were the snaps fumbled or did he
    justy plain miskick them?
    
    Seemed kinda strange to me.

 Yes, both extra point kicks had poor snaps.  Jeff Feagles, the holder, got
 his hands on the ball both times but the kick timing was badly thrown off. 
 The first PAT attempt hit the upright and the second was blocked.
 
 David Alexander, the center, is no doubt in for a long week of practice.
 
 Bob Hunt

 Walker also had 125 yards rushing in his Minny debut so let's not call him a
 savior yet....

 ;^)

 

    re: Missed PATs
    
    The new tight end, Pat Beach, will be practicing as the long snapper
    this week for the Birds. The regular long snapper, John Hudson, did
    snap on special teams this week, for some reason. Kotite never did
    explain that at the press conference on Monday.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    re .378:
    
    I've been going nuts the last few minutes trying to remember what team
    Pat Beach played for before he joined the Eagles...does anyone know?
    
    
    py

    
    > I've been going nuts the last few minutes trying to remember what team
    > Pat Beach played for before he joined the Eagles...does anyone know?
    
    The Colts, at one time...
    
    glenn
    

    
    If Kotite picked him up, he must have been a Jet. Beach is a former Jet
    and Colt.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    And, his nickname, at least among our stats crew, is sonofa.
    
    Ninj

Or how 'bout "Whitchwaytothe".

=Bob=

    
    
    How about "Lifes a".

    I guess the Iggles are on TNT this week since I saw Ted's truck at Sun
    Devil stadium today...
    
    Mike (the cableless wonder)

 Iggles vs Cards starts Sunday night at 8:00pm EDT.   That spells TNT to
 moi.
 
 And you, Mr Heiser, are *not* allowed to use our Birds' term of affection
 known as "Iggles".   Only the Eagles faithful have that sacred privilege.
 
 Bob Hunt

    
 >>And you, Mr Heiser, are *not* allowed to use our Birds' term of affection
 >>known as "Iggles".   Only the Eagles faithful have that sacred privilege.
    
    OR, if'n ya hail from Pittsburgh, and speak Pittsburghese, the common
    pronounciation of the grocery store chain "Giant Eagle", is "Jyn Iggle"
    
    Mr. Medvid cain vouch for that, I presume.
    
    JaKe
    

    Iggles, Kards, what's the difference...

	That's true. Where else would yunz buy your jumbo?  

	I've got to redd up and go have an Arn.  

	Bill

    Is Keith Byars starting at TE?
    

    Yup.. He will start (where he caught six balls on Sunday) and PAt Beach
    will be the 2nd TE.
    
    How may conferences did you ask this in, Walt?
    
    Dennis Faust
    

The gang I used to hang around with (all Giants fans) used to call the
Eagles  "The Green Birds", with the most derogatory stress on the word
"birds" I've ever heard.  The word was almost spit out....

I guess Iggles is to Eagles what Jints is to Giants....


8^)

'Saw

    
> I guess Iggles is to Eagles what Jints is to Giants....
    
    ...and Stillurs is to Steelers...
    
    glenn
    

    Jest call'em da Carrion like the rest of us do
    
    MikeL
    

    A warning.....................
    
    I have signed and activated Keith Byars in my Ultimate Football
    League!!!   This should likely ensure zero catches this week!!!
    
    
    HTH,
    
    Nelly

    I will have a short ethnic person delivering "flowers" to your front
    door Monday morning if that happens.
    
    ;*)
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    Thanks Nelly... only two conferences... if you read both, I'll only
    ask in one... haha...
    

 Don't even try to convince me that there's anybody playing outside
 linebacker any better than Seth Joyner is these days.   Not even close. 
 The man was everywhere ... stuffing the run, sacking the quarterback,
 bulldozing past blockers, making 3rd down tackles away from his position,
 and finally forcing Chris Chandler to cough up a final fumble that Reggie
 White rumbled on in for the clincher.

 Iggs 31, Cards 14 in scorching hot Tempe, AZ.   Herschel had hisself yet
 another 115 yard game.  I sure hope he's got some incentive clauses in his
 el cheapo $700K waiver wire deal with the Iggs 'cause he's on pace for
 about 1,800 yards or so.   I believe his longest carry lasted night went
 for about 20 yards but he had beaucoup carries of half a dozen or so yards
 a pop.   Any back that can get you 5 yards a carry is a luxury.  With the
 Eagles, it's bread from heaven.

 Randall Cunningham was extra extra sharp.   He finished something like
 17-for-23 for close to 270 yards with three TD's and nada on the picks.  
 He was pinpoint short, pinpoint medium, and pinpoint deep deep deep.  Fred
 Barnett had half a career yesterday with 8 snags for 190-something yards
 and two scores.  He royally abused Aeneas Williams, his opposing corner. 
 On his second touch, he reached back to stiff-arm Williams and ended up
 yanking his mask for the final 15 yards of the scoring romp.   Shoulda
 been called for a penalty on that one but it looked abusively funny from
 this delighted fan's chair.

 This game was not without its anxiety however.   Midway 2nd quarter and
 Clyde Simmons sacked hard luck QB Timm Rosenbach and separated his
 shoulder.  In comes Eagle killer Chris Chandler and boom the Cards got hot
 in a hurry.  Chandler was the guy at Tampa Bay who killed the Iggs' entire
 season lasted year when he replaced a brutal Vinny Testaverde with about 5
 minutes to go and then stunned the Birds with two late scores and the
 game.  That one loss was the worst of the year and it kept the Iggs from
 post-season play.

 So here comes Chandler again and he throws two quick scores (where have I
 seen this script before ???) and the Cards took a 14-10 lead and had Big
 Mo' squarely on their side.   But with about 2:00 minutes to go, Randall
 marched the Birds 80+ yards in a ho-hum smash-mouth two-minute drill.  A
 little Herschel, a little Fred, a little Keith ... and bang ... hit Calvin
 Williams for the six and the lead in the locker room.   The Cards were
 done at that point.   They clinched it with a 10-minute drive in the 4th
 quarter followed by Reggie White's fumble recovery TD.

 2-0 sounds just fine by me ... Especially with the Jints at 0-2 and the
 Skins at 1-1.  Nexted up is Denver in Philly.   Should be a fun one. 
 Elway handles most of the great defenses without much hassle.  Ity'll be
 interesting to see him try this one.   This Eagles defense is one for the
 ages.  And Seth Joyner is marching himself straight into a POY award.

 Bob Hunt
 

    
    Bob Hunt,
    
    	Your D-line has gotta be licking their chops.   Look for
    	Elway to go down at least 5 times.... :*(
    
    Claybone

> Iggs 31, Cards 14 in scorching hot Tempe, AZ.   Herschel had hisself yet
    
    ...and we brought in a cold-front just for y'all!  It's really cooled
    off the last couple weeks.
    
> This game was not without its anxiety however.   Midway 2nd quarter and
> Clyde Simmons sacked hard luck QB Timm Rosenbach and separated his
    
    That's a shame.  Cards could've used that FG that Davis missed too.
    This offense is so bad, especially the OL, they can't afford too many
    mistakes and missed opportunities.  The defense isn't bad, but is on the 
    field too much.
    
    Outside of this team, the desert is no place for wimps.
    
    Mike

> Elway handles most of the great defenses without much hassle.  Ity'll be
> interesting to see him try this one.   

Like Claybone said, expect Elway to running for his life and get dropped a
few times.  But Denver managed 5 sacks yesterday and should be able to get to
Randall a few times.  Are the Eagles still having alot of trouble protecting
him?  Philly'd be wise to let Herschel get his share of carries the way SD 
was able to run against Denver.
    
    Defenses might score more than the offenses in this one.  I'd be thrilled 
    if Denver gets outta there with a win.


Joe

 

    I cant recall many games between these 2 teams. A long 
    long time ago when I 1st became a Bronco fan they were here.
    It was Floyd Little's last home game. That's how long ago 
    that was. The EAgels show up and it's 10 below zero. 
    Both teams were going nowhere then and were just playing 
    out the string.  Little scored on a screen play. Have
    they played each other recently? 
    
    BoB 
    

    Three years ago they played at Mile High Stadium and the Birds beat the
    Broncos, although I don't recall he score. I do recall it was a close
    game and that the punt returner for the Broncos (don't recall his name)
    muffed a punt that lead to the Eagles winning score.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

 They play every three years, provided one or both doesn't finish last the
 year before.   In 1989, as Dennis recalled, the Iggs beat the Broncos in
 Denver on a late touchdown after a punt returner mishandled a kick.  More
 importantly, the Iggs had opened up that game with a l-o-n-g ground
 gobbling drive that took up like 10 minutes or so and went over 80 yards
 on all running plays.   Sapped the Denver defense right from the start.
 
 I was at The Vet in 1986 for the game before that.  It was opening day
 1986 and it was Buddy Ryan's first game as Iggs head coach.  The Iggs
 fumbled the opening kickoff for a Denver safety and John Elway proceeded
 to shred the Eagles secondary from that point on.   I think he was
 finished for the day shortly after the 3rd quarter began.  Final was
 Denver thirtysomething and the Iggles nothing-something.
 
 I don't know if they played in 1983.  I think the Iggs may have finished
 last the year before and thus avoided the regular rotation with the AFC
 West that year.  I saw the Iggs-Doncs game in 1980 at The Vet, though. 
 That game was also the season opener and the Eagles kicked beaucoup butt
 on their way to a 12-4 Super Bowl season.   Harold Carmichael abused the
 Denver defensive backs all afternoon long.
 
 Bob Hunt

 
> I was at The Vet in 1986 for the game before that.  It was opening day
> 1986 and it was Buddy Ryan's first game as Iggs head coach.  The Iggs
> fumbled the opening kickoff for a Denver safety and John Elway proceeded
> to shred the Eagles secondary from that point on.   I think he was
> finished for the day shortly after the 3rd quarter began.  Final was
> Denver thirtysomething and the Iggles nothing-something.
 
This game actually wasn't the opener but the 2nd or 3rd regular season game 
(which may have been the Eagles' home opener).  I'm almost positive the final
score was 33-7.

> I don't know if they played in 1983.  I think the Iggs may have finished
> last the year before and thus avoided the regular rotation with the AFC
> West that year.  I saw the Iggs-Doncs game in 1980 at The Vet, though. 
> That game was also the season opener and the Eagles kicked beaucoup butt
> on their way to a 12-4 Super Bowl season.   Harold Carmichael abused the
> Denver defensive backs all afternoon long.
 
Yes, they did play in '83 and Philly won in Denver on a last-minute field goal.
Final score was something like 17-14.


Joe

    Interesting thing about the Eagles/Broncos series that I read someplace
    this week. The *visiting* team almost always wins. I think only once
    (but don't quote me) the home team won. Anyone with acces to the 1992
    official NFL stat book can run that down pretty easily. I haven't
    gotten mine yet.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

 expect that streak to end this week. Philly looks like the NFC's rep to the
 Superbowl if they can break their playoff jinx.....

 mike

    More on the Phil.-Den. series:
    
    Philly leads the series 4-2.  The home team won the first 3 games in
    the series and the visiting team has won the last 3.  
    
    
    Joe

    re.408
    
    Then Philly, using HALogic, is totally dominant over the Donks, right??
    
    JaKe
    

       Yikes! 82 total yards a offense for the Donks!!
                                Denny

>       Yikes! 82 total yards a offense for the Donks!!
>                                Denny

I spoke with Bob Hunt on Friday afternoon, just before he left.

He's very excited about the Eagles, and when I bemoaned the coaching
problems the Giants have, Bob said:


	"Heh, heh, heh...(pause)  Heh, heh, heh. (pause)
	 hahahahahahahahaha.  (pause, then very quietly) I love it"



'Saw

           
    Yes, the Eagles are now officially "a force to be reckoned with".  It
    really looks as if this might be the year, and with a complete team
    around him Randall Cunningham may finally be able to vindicate his
    supporters.  It is a shame that our one major resident Eagles sufferer 
    is not going to be around to gloat over this... :-(
    
    glenn
    

>    It is a shame that our one major resident Eagles sufferer 
>    is not going to be around to gloat over this... :-(
    
Oh, believe me, he has my internet address, and has received my 
promise to post anything he wants me to post....  I have a feeling
ol' Bob will be doing some gloatin' in here before the season's done....


'Saw    

Big game looming at Dallas. The Eagles and the Cowboys have a bye thised
week and then it's a big matchup to see just how dominant the Eagles are
or how good the Cowboys are.

TTom

    The bye week may help the Eagles heal some bumps and bruises they have
    on the defense. Wes Hopkin and Leon Seals both have hamstring problems
    and Seals and Rich Miano have knee problems. With the extra week off,
    they should all be healthy.
    
    A couple of years ago, with the way Jimmy Johnson coached then, I
    wouldn't have been worried about this game, because Johnson would screw
    it up. He's improved quite a bit and I no longer feel that way. Should
    be a teriffic game. The Vet will be rocking that night.
    
    Dennis
    

    re -1
    
    >> A couple of years ago, with the way Jimmy Johnson coached then, I
    >> wouldn't have been worried about this game, because Johnson would
    >> screw it up.  He's improved quite a bit and I no longer feel that
    >> way.
    
    Johnson has been successful wherever he's coached.  Last year in the
    win at RFK, John Madden said "Johnson has just turned in the best
    coaching job I've ever seen."  When surrounded by inferior talent, any
    coach will look bad.  Johnson is now getting that blend of talent and
    experience.
    
    BTW, Johnson has made more than one team look pretty silly with his
    draft day moves, trades, etc.
    
    Bob Roper

    Typically, when a Johnson coached team has played the Eagles, There
    have been several coaching mistakes that have helped the Cowboys lose
    the game. The exception is the last Eagles-Cowboys game last season. I
    would agree that the talent on the Cowboys since Johnson has been there
    has not been at the same level as the Eagles, but that doesn't mean
    that the coach is forgiven for not having his team prepared. The 11
    sack game and the rout on Thanksgiving leap to mind.
    
    Anyway, that *was* a compliment to Johnson. Lighten up!!
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    re -1
    
    Dennis, not meaning to argue, but...
    
    My only point was this. I doubt seriously that Johnson has gone from a
    poor coach to one of the best in the game in a 1 1/2 years.  Coaches
    get way too much credit when a team performs well (see Bill Walsh) and
    too much criticism when they perform poorly.
    
    IMO, JJ has always been a good coach, and people are now beginning to
    notice that on the Pro level since the team is performing so well. 
    BTW, you really don't believe Johnson had anything to do with the 11
    sack performance of the Eagles in Dallas last year do you? :-)
    
    Bob Roper

    The jury is still out on Jimmy Johnson.  In the NFL, playoff football
    is where coaches prove their meddle, up against the best minds in
    the game.  In the regular season, talent and intensity can carry you
    (and JJ is a great motivator).  The "success at every level" tag must
    be qualified at this point; in my opinion, JJ did not shower himself in
    glory at the college level, being outcoached in many big games while at
    Miami (and even Oklahoma State, albeit with less talent).
    
    glenn
    

    re: .418
    
    Who said he was the best coach? I said he was better.
    
    ;*)
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    hello!!! anybody out there sept.22 last entry????
    I need the support away from these blue and orange fools.
    
    
    
    			Stuck in donkey terriorty
    
     				Dave

    
     Hey !!!   What wrong with Donkey Land...   
    
     Bronco Football !!  It only take up two minutes of your weekend...
    
    
    ;^)
    
    BG

I'm NOT an Eagle fan.  (Far from it, in fact -- I love to see
Crandall Runningham get crunched and see that stupid grin wiped
off his face).


BUT, I've got to tell you, the Biggest Eagle fan in here got the
package. 

The second biggest Eagle Fan would, in my estimation, be Dennis Faust,
but he doesn't write too often.


hth,
'Saw

    Time to become a Donk fan...  Makes for interesting Sundays
    and very boring Monday Nights...  ;^)
    
    One good thing about the Donks...  Only takes two minutes to watch
    on of their came.  Lets get out a bunch more on the weekends !!
    
    BG
    
    p.s.  I have a BUNCH of orange stuff if you need some to get started !

    Sheesh...  Where was I on that one...
    
    

    Well, I've been kind of busy.
    
    Eagles started off like gang busters. going 4-0 and playing almost
    flawless defense (esp. against Denver and Dallas). Then they had, I
    believe, a mental letdown against KC and got taken apart.  The
    Washington game was a loss, but the Eagles have seldom played well in
    RFK and they don't match up well against the Washington OL. 
    
    The Eagles have to get staightened out this week against the Cardinals
    and should win, but I don't think there's anyway they cover the 16
    point spread. If I'm not mistaken, they haven't beat the Cardinals in
    Philly for 3 or 4 years. 
    
    This is a beat up Eagle team, with Andre Waters (SS) gone until mid
    December at the earliest, Wes Hopkins (FS) probably out this week with
    a strained knee ligament, Seth Joyner (OLB) may miss this week with a
    strained knee ligament as well. IMO, Joyner may be one of the top 3 OLB
    in the NFL, so this is a huge loss for the Eagles. Britt Hager will
    start in Joyner's place if Joyner can't go. Rich Miano and John Booty
    (both former Jets) will be the starting safeties. Both tackles are
    doubtful for this game as well. Antone Davis has a strained knee and
    Ron Heller has a problem with the arch on his foot. Two guys I never
    heard of will start in their places (actually, I had heard of them but
    can't remember their names). Keith Byars has a broken bone in his hand,
    but cannot get a cast or he can't catch or carry the ball. He's
    probable for Sunday's game. Cunningham has a severely bruised hand from
    having it stepped on by an unidentified Washington player last Sunday
    (before any DC fans get on me, that is staight out of the newspaper).
    
    The Eagles need to get their stuff together this week and be on the
    correct course before they go to Texas on November 1.
    
    If you want any other information, or something more specific, let me
    know and I'll try to get it in here hwen I get a chance. I'm on the
    road about 70% of the time.
    
             
    Dennis Faust
    

    If anybody needs a Donk fan starter kit just let me know.
    
    BoB

    >If anybody needs a Donk fan starter kit just let me know.
    
    Me, I need one.  I will examine it carefully and determine my best
    defenses against donk fans while I'm here in Colorado Springs, then
    I will set fire to it.  If it turns out that it is fire proof I was
    a garbage compactor out back 8^)  8^)
    
    Marc

                 <<< Note 52.429 by CSC32::M_MACGREGOR >>>

    >If anybody needs a Donk fan starter kit just let me know.
    
>>    Me, I need one.  I will examine it carefully and determine my best
>>    defenses against donk fans while I'm here in Colorado Springs, then
>>    I will set fire to it.  If it turns out that it is fire proof I was
>>    a garbage compactor out back 8^)  8^)
    
>>    Marc

    Marc,
    
      You were a garbage compactor out back,  re-incarnated eh !!!
    
    
    BG
    

    Is it just me or the last 3 games Did Randall look like
    he just doesn't care?no motivation? what does the sports writters
    in Philly say.     
      			be home in march
    			Dave

    Actually, Randall's looked lost for the last 4 games. Maybe he's hit
    the wall during his comeback , maybe it's something else. My feelings
    (and one's I've heard expressed in the Philadelphia media) is that he
    isn't very wel suited to the new Eagles offense, which wants a stay at
    home QB. Randall has never been very good at intentionally grounding
    the ball and has always held onto the ball a long time, trying to make
    a big play. Now he just looks lost back there. It appears to me that
    Cunningham is stifled in the stay at home offense and he  doesn't feel
    comfortable in it and has no confidence in himself in it. A situation
    like this was in place during Ryan's last season, when Cunningham was
    in a funk the first three games. Kotite and Ryan went to Randall and
    told him to "let it all hang out" and he went crazy, running all over
    the place, making big plays. Typically, the teams that have done a good
    job defensing Randall have tried to keep him in the pocket. Now
    Kotite's done that for them.
    
    IMO, Kotite needs to get Cunningham turned around and if that means
    changing the offense to one more suited to Randall, so be it. The
    Eagles will go as far as the defense and Cunningham take them. To
    expect McMahon to take them anywhere is folly. He'll be "broken" before
    they hit Thanksgiving.
                                
    Dennis Faust
    

       Talked to my brother in Joisey lasted night. He says Kotite
    will start McMahon Sunday.
                                 Denny

Crandall Runningham has spent too much time reading the likes of
SI which proclaimed him the prototype QB and all that rot.  HE's
got the hype machine of an Ali.   He's never won anything, choking
like a fish outta water inthe big games.

He's a major league overrated bum.

JD

    JD,
    
    Is there any team/coach/player you like?????
    
    The Crazy Met
    

I think Crandall has the hots for LaToya, and he's a boy seriously
IN LOVE.

That's messin' up his haid!


Either that, or JD's right.


'Saw

  >> -< we missed 'ya >-
    
     "We" ?
         
    

    Tommy,
    
    its sorta like MrT when he went on hiatus, sorta like ACChris
    disappearing; it is a relief but something IS missing.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    What a minute... Didn't Donald Trump Dump MArla for Latoya???
    I thought I read that in the check out line lasted night???
    
    REK

LaToya ? "Oh, what a feeling".

    The Eagles are setting themselves up for a repeat of
    last season. They'll be the best team not to make the
    playoffs again.
    
    BoB

    It's official.  Cunningham has been benched in favor of McMahon for
    next week's game.  Kotite said having Randall sit and watch for a week
    will be good for him.

>    It's official.  Cunningham has been benched in favor of McMahon for
>    next week's game.  Kotite said having Randall sit and watch for a week
>    will be good for him.


Awww........

    Kotite's lost his mind!  Cunningham isn't a child.  Given free reign
    over the offense he's the most dangerous QB in the league.  This
    certainly hurts the Eagle's IMO.  Kotite has really clamped down on
    what makes Cunningham so great (Improvising, etc).  It appears to me
    that the Eagles are making the same mistake that the Vikings did.  They
    are changing their entire offense to better suit Hershel Walker.
    
    More power to ya Mr. Kotite.  I'm a Cowboy fan and loving these
    brilliant coaching decisions!
    
    Bob Roper

Any bets that Cunningham will be in there by the end of the 1st 
half?

    
    Kotite = Handley
    
    ;^)
    
    BG

What am I missing here?  Didn't Randall that 4 very good games to start
the year?  Surely Kotite didn't try to change their offense after they
scored 31 points against Dallas?  It's got to be something else.

One thing that John Madden mentioned is that Randall misses Keith
Jackson.  I have a hard time buying this, as it took 4 games to take
effect.  The other thing he said is that Keith Byars is not as effective
now that he has a broken hand.  That makes more sense, but surely
that's not all of it.

I suppose that opposing defenses may have figured out a few things
about the Eagle's offense.  It seems to be a consensus of opinion
that the way to beat Cunningham is to KEEP him in the pocket, and
Randall was effective against the Cowboys when he was on the move.
I guess it's the Eagle's move.  It will be interesting to see
what Kotite does.

Jerry

    Kotite's offense is design to keep Randall in the pocket. He was a
    little more mobile during the opening games, and he still didn't play
    all that well, but his stats were much better. He has looked tentative
    all season but has progressively gotten worse as the season has rolled
    on.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

Bring back Buddy !!!!!

	Not sure how many of you saw the game. But from my vantage point,
Randall looked a bit lazy. The pass they Brown picked looked to be floating 
out to the flats. It didnt have the normal zip I've seen the guy put on the
ball in the past. 

     	If they continue to use McMahon ? they will have to fight the Cardinals
for the NFC East cellar. 

   Cadzilla

  Re-Born Cowboy Fan

	

    Was talking to mom today back in Philly,she was saying that
    Quote"play me or trade me,I didn't learn anything by sittin."
    She also said since Witney Houston got married it was his girl friend
    he lost some motivation,and that the jackson trade that he belives
    Mgt. didn't do what was best for him by giving him lesser recivers.
    So whats the deal with him???Trade him off the way I look at it.
    no one player makes a team look at last year.Seems like he wants
    to take his ball and go home!!!
    					March aint soon enough.
    						Dave

    Dave, would you mind if I send that request into Sam Jankovich?

    
    Crandle Runningham is an over rated, cry bay, girly mon, bum !!
    
    Trade Him !!
    
    BG

    I agree with ya BG. By kickoff last sunday I was 
    thoroughly fed up about hearing it. This happens every
    week all over the NFL. If they pay you to perform and
    you don't perform you grab some bench. If the guy is in
    a slump he should work his way out of it and quit looking
    for excuses and quit the bitchin'.  They did prove they 
    can win without him. 
    
    BoB

Not only that but Randall keeps saying that they should redesign the whole 
offense because "I'm the man and if I'm the man they should design the 
offense around me."

what a bloated ego he has....

Here's hoping he sucks this week and Jimmmy Mac comes back in to save
the beagles...

Metz

    
    
    Randal Cunningham:  Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, waaaaah!!
    
    John Elway:Heeeeeeeeeeeew haaaaaaaaaaaaaaw, heeeeeeeeeeeee
    haaaaaaaaaaaw
    
    
    nuf said
    
    JaKe
    
    

    re;.453
           whom (like that) is Sam Jankovich????
    
    				Dave

    He is the Pats GM--Director of Football .....
    
    REK

    
     JaKe,
    
     You don't ever see Elway in the media crying about how bad his line
    is, or how Reeves is this or that, or anything negitive for that
    matter.  Elway may have big Teef but he is a team player.
    
    HTH,
    
    BG

    
    score 1 for the mod's!
    

    
     Yea...  that same Elway who had a choice to play where and when he
    wanted to.  I don't believe that ol` John cried at all...  He made a
    statement.  Trade me or I'm a Yankee...  Thats not the same as what 
    Runningham is doing.  Elway never upsets the balance of the team by 
    running to the press everytime he has a beef with Reeves.
    
    BG
    
    Score one for the Mods...   NOT !!!
    
    

 but Jack, Elway has cried to the media before about his differences with
 Reeves. Not every single time but he has cried before. Besides standing
 on the sideline next to your coach but refusing to talk to him would 
 qualify as acting like a spoiled child IMO. Not to mention getting tackled
 before the endzone and spike the ball in disgust....

 nope BBJ is a wah -wah man too......

    
    Name one time Elway has publicly cried about reeves or anyone 
    else on the organization.  As for not talking to Reeves on the 
    side line goes...  I'd be pissed too if my coach basicly hung
    my A$$ out to dry by drafting an unproven punk for a future QB
    instead of a lineman to protect the great one he already has.
    
    HTH,
    
    BG

 I saw him bitchin' about Reeves on ESPN last year. They were during an
 interview on the practice field. Mostly how the play callin sucked. So
 Reeves turned it over to Elway, he won a few ballgames and was all laddeeda
 then he lost a few ballgames and he asked Reeves to take over again.

 During the monday nite game against the Skins, they were talking about how
 Reeves told Elway he could call his own plays whenever he wanted and BBJ
 balked at it. Too much pressure for a man who crumbles in the face of it...

 mike

    
     I never saw it...  Prove it, Butt head !!
    
     The reason John balked at calling play then was because the 
    offense was so complicated that it was impossible for him to make
    the call and then get the right personnel in with the time alloted.
    Now that they have brought the offense back to reality BBJ can and
    will call a better game than Danny Boy any day. 
    
    I'm done with this one Mikey,
    
    BG

    The never ending Elway debate is kind of like the Energizer Bunny.
    It goes on and on and..........
    
    BoB 

    
   > Yea...  that same Elway who had a choice to play where and when he
   > wanted to.  I don't believe that ol` John cried at all...  He made a
   > statement.  Trade me or I'm a Yankee...  Thats not the same as what 
   > Runningham is doing.
    
    Yeah, Elway made some "statements", alright, like "Where's Baltimore?
    Is that on the East Coast?"  He was hardly professional about it. 
    Can't blame him for not wanting to play for Tiger Bob and Frank Kush;
    that was a terrific career decision, but he made an ass out of himself
    in making his point, *just like Cunningham*.
    
    glenn
    

    
    He was young...  Ross would have let him slide on those comments  ;^)
    
    BG