Conference 7.286::sports_91

    Don't post to race on the street, Hawk.  Note diallowed!
    
    MrT

Well, using an old Delbert McClinton expression, I've had
a racy motor at times...does that count?  8^)

    	The Indy 500(T's greatest race) will have an over the country pace
    car! Yes, it's a Dodge Stealth. United Auto Workers are protesting the
    use of the car. The Stealth is made by those people who own most of our
    country.

    	You will NEVER see that in NASCAR! Take notes guys..you're losing
    fans and audiences all over the place.

    B.A.

  
To be fair, the Stealth is being built by Chrysler and 
Mitsubishi. The UAW spokesman stated that they'd probably have no 
arguement if a Eagle Talon or Mitubishi Eclipse (?) were named since 
they are being built in the US. Interesting since I'd assume that 
the Mitsubishi factory that's building the Eclipse probably is a 
non-UAW shop anyway.

No other manufacturer offered a model as this years pace car.

dd

    Whaddya mean "not down here" B.A.?  Ain't the South the preferred 
    spot for our new masters (the Japanese) to build all them plants?
    
    As for the Stealth, as I understand it's nothing but a rebadge
    job, unlike the Talon which is assembled in Normal, Illinois.  I
    agree, though, that it was a stupid marketing move.  But, hey,
    all those stupid MBAs who run the Big3 are basically pulling out of
    the car biz anyway so why should the Hulman family pitch in if they
    won't?  Hypocrite of the Decade for the '80s has to be Lee Iococca.
    
    MrT

You got that right Hawk.

Iacocca rebuilt Chrysler using any means possible, including 
using foreign built drivetrains. Once Chrco was back on it's feet again,
he began purging much of the furrin built stuff and using 'merican engines
again. Witness the V6 now appearing in the Lebarons and mini-vans.

Chryco has a vested interest in Mitsubishi hence the colaboration.

Everything I've read stated the Chrysler had a major role in the 
design of the Stealth.

You wanna talk hipocrates, look at Smith and the "Heatbeat of 
America" beancounters over at GM...

dd

foreign or national don't make beans of difference any more in the car market.

The auto industry is now a worldwide mixing bowl. Chryco owns part of mitsu,
gm owns part of somebody else...ford owns part of another firm..everybody
swaps parts and badge engineers stuff. 90% of the car electronics comes
from overseas. 'Merican cars use foreign steel.

You can't find a car built 100% in america any more.


Metz

    Hey, I'm no car buff, and I couldn't distinguish a drive train from a
    rotary engine, but I think a lot of this menace from Japanese
    competition is misconceived.
    
    1) The Germans and Great Britian own more of this country than the
    Japanese.
    
    2) American consumers should be grateful to Japan for re-introducing
    competition into the American car market.
    
    3) American consumers should be pissed off at the American car
    manufacturers for getting fat, happy and stupid from the lack of
    pre-Japanese competition.
    
    4) American consumers should be doubly pissed at the Amer. manuf. for
    forcing "voluntary" quotas on the Japanese manufacturers, giving the
    Americans the right to charge over market value for their inferior
    products, and forcing the Japanese to raise their prices to make
    profits over less volume (also luxury-izing each car sold).
    
    Did you know that in another year or two, the Honda Accord will be a
    domestic car?  Over 75% of its parts will be built in America which is 
    currently what defines domestic.
    
    Dan

    And one more thing ...
    
    American computer companies had better wake up and smell the burnt
    toast crumbs leftover by the American car companies.
    
    Because we're next in line.   
    
    Bob Hunt
    

     <<< Note 39.11 by HOTSHT::SCHNEIDER "The elbow is part of the ball" >>>
            -< Cars would be $5-$10K if not for Ford, GM, Chrysler >-

Wrong. Japan Inc. (afterall they are protected from competition by the Japanese 
government) got a footholdof the US market back in the late '60's 
and early '70's with CHEAP not with QUALITY. What happened to all 
those CHEAP cars? They're gone, they're were designed to last a 
year or two and rust away to nothing. They've been replaced today 
with the $20K Honda. If you're looking to blame high priced 
automobiles on US manufacturers, you shouldn't.


    2) American consumers should be grateful to Japan for re-introducing
    competition into the American car market.

And isn't it too bad that Japan Inc won't allow us to compete in 
their market. Why is that?

    
    3) American consumers should be pissed off at the American car
    manufacturers for getting fat, happy and stupid from the lack of
    pre-Japanese competition.
    
True. But that was close to 15 years ago. Times have changed. 


    4) American consumers should be doubly pissed at the Amer. manuf. for
    forcing "voluntary" quotas on the Japanese manufacturers, giving the
    Americans the right to charge over market value for their inferior
    products, and forcing the Japanese to raise their prices to make
    profits over less volume (also luxury-izing each car sold).
    
Inferior according to whom? If the US manu. could sell these 
so-called priced-over-market cars, then they couldn't have been 
over market could they? Supply and demand. The Big 3 asked the feds
to negociate a quota in response to the US manufacturers being kept out of the 
Japanese market. It's isn't just cars fer cryin' out loud, it's 
foodstuffs etc. We can't sell our rice there while the Japanese 
sell their domestic rice at inflated prices. Japan Inc. has seen 
to that by instituting policies to see that their industries are 
protected. 


    Did you know that in another year or two, the Honda Accord will be a
    domestic car?  Over 75% of its parts will be built in America which is 
    currently what defines domestic.
    
What's your point?

    
dd

>CHEAP not with QUALITY
    
    Do you think the Amer. manufacturers were selling quality back then? 
    Ha!  Perhaps the japanese cars weren't built of the hi-quality steel
    used in American cars, but they were generally much better engineered. 
    I just read another article recently describing how the Big 3 had
    conditioned American can buyers into accepting extremely low standards
    of quality, and little accountability when things went wrong.
    
    In my opinion, the Japanese DROVE quality way up, and American cars
    SLOWLY followed suit.  Engineering and innovation?  FOrget about it.
    
>If you're looking to blame high priced 
>automobiles on US manufacturers, you shouldn't.
    
    You are wrong, Daryl.  No competition and $18/hr assembly line wages is
    what drove Amer. prices to where they couldn't compete when the
    Japanese came on strong.  and...
    
>The Big 3 asked the feds
>to negociate a quota in response to the US manufacturers being kept out of the 
>Japanese market.
    
    No way.  The Big 3 couldn't compete on OUR shores; you think they were
    going to do anything over there?  The quota was put in to help the
    Amer. companies over here.  The lip service about Japanese
    protectionism is not a realistic concern, and as an American consumer I
    couldn't care less.  The Big 3 conned the gov't into enforcing these
    quotas so they could maintain profits by selling more of their inferior
    cars.
    
    The Japanese responded by following the negotiated quotas, and then the
    "voluntary" ones, by shifting quickly (something the Amer. should have
    done, but never can) into higher profit cars and getting away from what
    won them such a large market share, cheap, superior and fuel efficient
    cars.
    
    Instead of learning something from the Japanese, the Big 3 leaned on
    our gov't to cover their own asses.  They moved ever so slowly into
    fuel efficiency, ever so slowly into reliablity, ever so slowly into
    engineering innovations.
    
    The Big 3 has seen a lot of its profits move overseas, but they were
    rescued by these policies.  I would have prefered to see them deal with
    an open market and go through the belt tightening and innovation of so
    many other industries.  Perhaps one of them might not have made it (I
    doubt it) but we'd be paying considerably less for our cars today if
    that had happened.
    
    Dan

    First thing's first: GREAT p_name, dd!  "Ho ho *ho* Merry Christmas!"
    is a famous line from one a my faves by NWA.
    
    re: rathole
    
    It's a complicated subject with plenty of blame to dole out on this 
    side a the Pacific, but suffice it to say that Dan's diatribe sounds
    like the canned presentation given out by propagandist lawyers/lobbyists 
    in the employ of Japan, Inc.
    
    It's not free trade vs. protectionism, it's a matter of *fair* trade.
    The incompetence of our auto industry stems primarily from the fack
    that our industrials fell under the control of the artificially empowered
    financial services industry, and the massive influx of MBAs into the car
    makers, steel companies, etc. led to a massive drop off in quality and
    market share and general competitiveness.  
    
    The latest example of American "conservatives" toadying for Japanese
    interests was when Bush quietly handed over several billion dollars
    of high tech manufacturing process advanced technology as part of that
    so-called aerospace "trade agreement."  What it was was a hold-up.  Pat
    Buchanan debating Kinsley about whether or not Bush shoulda done it was
    silly; he had no choice, it was either hand it over or see our line of
    credit cut-off!
    
    They should do real well in the airplane biz after about a 15 year ramp
    now that they got the kick start.
    
    Remember when RayGun announced his "trickle down deindustrialization
    service economy policy" in which we were gonna be the world's banker 
    and consultant?  Wail, 24 of the top 25 banks are now Jap (the other is
    a French bank).  Oh, and most advanced auto tech'ly out of Detroit is 
    now bought from overseas consultants (Yamaha, Porsche, etc.)
    
    The key to wealth is manufacturing.  The key to manufacturing is
    process, the key of which is automation.  The experts now fear that an
    economy that falls too far behind in automation know-how may at some 
    point become permanently locked out cuz the reentry costs will be 
    prohibitive.
    
    Congrat's to the U.S. Gov't for setting up the Japanese's forthcoming
    onslaught into systems by force-feeding Unix on the world through the
    DoD.  They should do well in systems, too, based on the fact that they
    are sole masters of several key processes devised stateside.
    
    You cain't compete against an unfair player who works harder and runs
    its government with its own interest - and not personal gain or
    ideology - in mind.
    
    Read _A_Japan_That_Cain_Say_No_ and find out about Japan's plans for 
    an independent military policy.  Now that they're the boss, and that
    the stupid Americans are all set to do their dirty work in Arabia, 
    they'll be needing some independence in that regard rather soon.  The
    aerospace tech'ly should help there too.
    
    MrT 

Dan,

I know you said that you're not all that familiar with automotive 
technology, but if you were, you'd know that under those early 
Toyota hoods were designes that screamed small-block Chevy. 
Innovation? Back then? Nope? Innovation lately? Name some.

And just exclude ABS, AWD, turbos among others from that list.

Japan Inc. increased their market share by buying and outright 
stealing patents. It's common knowledge that they do not 
acknowledge international patent laws.

Fact is fair is fair. I'd expect to be dealt with equally, why 
can't the Japanese deal with us equally in their market? Are they 
afraid of competition? They claim they're not, but the actions 
say otherwise.

I see nothing wrong with making the Stealth the Indy Pace Car. 
I'm not a UAW employee or a nationalist. Metz said it best. Look 
under the hood of your Peugeot. You'll be surprised to find 
'merican and Japanese parts there.

dd

    Actually, MrT, I owe my view on this subject to economic papers on the
    quotas, the reasons and their predicted effects.  Nothing to do with
    Japanese propoganda as you falsely and condescendingly accuse.
    
>Toyota hoods were designes that screamed small-block Chevy. 
>Innovation? Back then? Nope? Innovation lately? Name some.
    
    Yeah, but there's a lot more to cars than what is under the hood. 
    Basic users such as myself noticed a better quality car, more attention
    to user-engineering detail.  Just things that worked.  When Toyota,
    Datsun, Suburu introduced their cars, they weren't competing as much as
    tapping into a market which the Big 3 ignored => affordability,
    reliablity, fuel efficiency.  Looks weren't an issue, and as you
    alluded to, they didn't have the good steel.
    
    But the gas crisis suddenly made their cars much more popular, and
    after a 5 years of hand-wringing and complaining did the Big 3 do
    anything productive to win back the Amer. consumer?  No.  They leaned
    on the gov't for quotas, a decision which probably costs us $5000 a car
    with inflation today.
    
    I understand your chagrine about fair market practices, but it (and
    MrT's previous note) is a completely different issue.  The quotas let
    the Big 3 coast at the expense of the Amer. consumer a few more years,
    and pushed the Japanese manuf. somewhere where they were very willing
    to go.
    
    I just read in the plane last week Car and Driver or one of those
    similar mags.  Best 4 luxury cars in the world.   A BMW, A Merc, Lexus
    and Bentley.  In a year, Lexus not only made their #3, but does it for
    incredible dollars less than the others!  Where's Cadillac?  They're
    losing a ton of money for GM making cars almost 20 years out of date!
    
>Look 
>under the hood of your Peugeot. You'll be surprised to find 
>'merican and Japanese parts there.                          
    
    Don't know about that.  As far as I know (not much, except when it
    comes for paying for it) almost every part is from France.  And aside
    from being moved to tears every time I open that hood remembering those
    expensive repair bills, I remember that I should've bought the
    goddamned Camry for a couple K less bucks as well!
    
    Dan

    >Nothing to do with Japanese propoganda [sic] as you falsely and
    >condescendingly accuse.
    
    Yes I am condescend to you on this; no the accusation isn't false.
    
    Time and again the economic forecasts put out a sanguine picture of
    the effects industrial losses will have, and time and again the results
    turn out to be much worse than predicted.
    
    Yes I agree that the 3 year quota that was agreed to was meant to give
    the Big3 a free ride, but you miss the point.  If we paid a little more
    via government edict then it shoulda followed that the payment would go
    into some form of industrial policy.  It didn't.  It went into rebadged
    rice burners, most of them sold by Lee I-a-Hypocrite-a-cocca hisself,
    so as to pay out a better stock dividend and receive higher exec bonuses.
    
    The only reason the Japanese are bulding here is that they are still
    under the mistaken impression that sooner or later Americans will stand
    up and fight for their best interests.  Oh, and the other reason our
    new masters patronize us is that, unlike America's deluded self-serving
    leadership, they understand that workers and consumers are not separate
    groups.
    
    MrT

    >no the accusation isn't false.
    
    I suppose you can repeat that to yourself 100 times, and eventually
    believe it true.  But the economists I read in the early '80s weren't
    the slightest bit tainted by Japanese prop.  It's an issue easily
    handled by economic theory, and the problems demonstrated were
    exasperated by Big 3 behavior.
    
    >If we paid a little more
    >via government edict then it shoulda followed that the payment would go
    >into some form of industrial policy.  It didn't.  It went into rebadged
    >rice burners, most of them sold by Lee I-a-Hypocrite-a-cocca hisself,
    >so as to pay out a better stock dividend and receive higher exec bonuses.
    
    Do you mean "we" the consumers paid for the quotas  If so, I agree, and
    if paying is a foregone conclusion, it might as well go toward a new
    policy.  But there were better solutions that would have ended up
    saving the consumer money, rather than costing him, would have pained
    the Big 3, but would have left them much stronger through the '80s and
    today.
    
    Re: why Japan builds here.  They don't want to see the quotas
    voluntarily go any lower.  Profits would be hurt.  Could you see it if
    that happened, they'd make the best car in the history of the world,
    sell it for $60,000.00 and hit the quota exactly.
    
    Dan

    	C'mon America! Spend your hard earned dollars on U.S. made cars.
    Then pay to have the fixed! You will keep American workers working, and
    feel even better about being an American! To hell with the Jap cars!

    	And one more thing..to Hell with the Indy program all together!

    Glad it's Friday! :*)

    B.A. 

It's been my experience that it really depends on the individual
car.

I've owned Datsuns, a Jeep, had a Ford company car, and now have a
GMC pickup.  I like, and have had the best results with the GMC.

My Datsun 280-ZX was a superb car for a while, but a lot went wrong
with it.  (So much for the superior Japanese engineering).  I had
purchased that after having great luck with the Datsun 310 I had
previously.  

My Jeep defined the term Lemon, but I owned it before Connecticut 
passed their Lemon Law, so I was SOL...

The Ford Taurus company car was the biggest piece of st_t I'd ever
seen.  When we lost our cars a couple of years ago, it had about
25000 miles on it.  In that time it had gone through two blown head
gaskets, a cracked head and block, and transmission problems galore.


Bottom line, it's like anything else.  Sometimes you get a good one,
sometimes you get a bad one...(kind of like some of our products, eh?)



Regarding MotorSport...

	Have they had the Paris-Dakar Rally yet????


'Saw

The first 5 winners of Indy races last year had Chevrolet engines. 

    >problems demonstrated were exasperated by Big 3 behavior.
    
    That would be "exacerbated," Dan.
    
    As for YOU, B.A., *you* were only looking for a_excuse to peench
    a loaf on the good name of Indy Car racing, weren't you?  Btw and
    fyi, guess who plans to join the NASCAR circuit now that they sell
    V8s?  [InfinitiLexusAcura]
    
    Ha ha haaa !!  Soon you'll be a_Indy Car main, B.A.  At least *that*
    series is all English!
    
    MrT

Wow!

Dale The Intimadator takes the gaspipe at Daytona yet again.

Like the jock in High School whose lockeroom tales of exploits in the sack
translate into the cheerleaders stories of him being a lousy lover,
Dale choked again within sight of the goal....

With his thighs shuddering and palms sweating, he just lost it
a little tooo soon.....


First time I've watched an entire race in a long time....

'Saw

    	Saw,
    
    	I watched most of the race myself.
    
    	Those stupid pit rules are more complicated that our
    	tax system in the US. I mean, ya need a computer to
    	figure out when you can/can't enter the pits, and what
    	you can/can't do once you get there.
    
    	Scott

re the pit rules:

	Yes, I was thoroughly confused.  

	It's like, well, I just banged up my car, but my birthday was
	on a Tuesday this year and my social security number ends in
	a 2 so that makes me abstractly even, which means I can enter
	the pits on the 15th lap after the caution, unless the moon
	is waning, in which case it's the 14th lap, unless my wife (assuming
	I have one) has a social security number ending in 2 or 4 which
	means I can enter on the 16th lap after the caution except if
	her number ends in 4 and when that's subtracted from my car number
	the result ends in a 7 which means I can enter on the 3rd lap
	after the caution...

	Ok, I got in now.....VROOOM, VROOOMMM......

'Saw

    re-1 and 2
    
    	Agreed! the new pit rules Suck!  Elliott got the worst of that
    deal. CBS's coverage wasn't that great either. A lot of the best racing
    was back in the pack which CBS viewers never saw.
    
    B.A._waiting_on_Richmond!

    NASCAR needs to clean things up.  When a_entire race is almost run
    under yellow it's no good.  I think maybe Bill France, Jr. created
    a monster with his end-race fake yellows, and it's taking over the
    sport like a_AL umpire!
    
    MrT

    
    	Can you say "Black Flagged"?  I thought so....
    
    Ho Hum...
    
    B.A.

I have a NASCAR question.

Normally I watch NASCAR just to watch.  I'm not one of the folks who
even knows what kind of car so and so drives, except that I know
Wallace drives a Grand Prix I think, and Bodine a t-bird.

Anyway, what I was wondering was this.  If they build the car from the
ground up (like I've seen in those tours of the Penske/Rusty Wallace facility,
or in Days of Thunder), then how can they call it a Grand Prix, or a Lumina,
or a T-bird.  I mean, if they do the chassis, and the frame and all,
and just plop a Ford, Chevy or Pontiac engine in there, how does that
make it a Lumina etc.?

thanks,
'Saw

    
    
    That's racing...:-)
    
    
    They go by the sheet metal (body) and engine.
    
    
    Actually you could find Olds parts in Pontiacs and all sorts of
    concoctions.
    
    Mr France will allow anything.......as long as it favors GM:-)
    
    
    Lou

>    That's racing...:-)
>   
>    
>    They go by the sheet metal (body) and engine.

Oh, I see....  Never knew that.....
    

    Mr T,
    	I'm surprised that you haven't mentioned the flying coffin's that
    are coming up in a few weeks. I've been watching the quals, and not too
    shabby! 200+ with NO RESTRICTOR plate. I sure wish I could buy one
    of those cars at the local car lot! :*)

    	I guess the 500K+ that will watching those things will be amazed at
    the speeds, and they should. They really are getting around that track
    in a hurry.  

    	If I were to bet on the race itself, I would probably bet on Mears
    or Filtipalti(sp) because of the NASCAR connection(Penske).

    	Just as long as Lame Dick Foyt doesn't win it..I'll be satisfied of
    not having too listen to ESPN tell me how great he his.(insert puke)!

    Have a nice day....verroommmm!

    B.A.

    >nobody passed anybody during the whole race
    
    Of course, this simply isn't true.  But, we don't wanna delude B.A.,
    who's stuck watching top heavy 4,000 pound hogs held back by restrictor
    plates, and suckered by phony yellows and artificial pit stops to make
    sure the end is "close."
    
    >(insert puke)
    
    Yes, I puke on A.J. too.  He's a a bum.  One wonders what's happening
    with CART where a 54 year old convalescent cain make the front row. 
    I'm glad A.J. did well, though, for that spared us the spectacle of 
    seeing him blame-laying or cold-cocking his crew in Gasoline Alley.
    
    I like Mears.  Or Rahal.  Al Jr.'s due for some bad luck.  
    
    Should be a helluva race... once they move the geriatrics off to the
    side by lap 75.
    
    MrT  

    Any comment on Willy T. Ribbs making the Indy field?
    

    
    	How about Hiro Matsushita? He's doing just as well!
    
    
    B.A.

    Get serious, B.A.  There were dozens a passes in the Monaco this 
    year, not the least a which was Mansell's of Prost coming outta 
    the tunnel.  Admit it.  
    
    re: WillyT
    
    I've been following WillyT for years.  He had a great career up
    against Scott Pruett in IMSA GTO, the *real* stock car series. 
    Trouble with Willy is that he cain be rough on cars... his and
    those a others.  He owes a lot to Paul Newman, who kept him going
    for years with sponsorship.  It was sad to see him associate himself
    with the likes of Bill Cosby, and sad to see somebody of Cosby's 
    mettle involved in racing at all.
    
    But WillyT did a fine job qualifying.  217's not too shabby.  The
    car's out of the box, and they did a helluva job sorting it out.
    We'll see in The Race this weekend how WillyT's adaptation to high
    speed ovals has progressed.  He'll need to keep his car dialed in
    perfectly and will have to stay away from beating up his tires as
    he usually did in GTO.  
    
    The Race is always a war of attrition.  If the car's reliable and
    WillyT's careful he's got a shot at a top five finish, which would
    be remarkable.  I prefer Pruett over Ribbs as a GTO fan, but this 
    is Ribb's big shot.  Pruett - prior to his testing accident - was
    outperforming Ribbs.  And in Pruett's case he took $75K outta his
    own bank account to buy a ride.  But his is Willy's shot.  I wish 
    him well.
    
    >More power to him...
    
    He'll need all the power he cain git.  He had that car supertuned 
    for quals and the race set-up will be a lot slower.
    
    MrT

    
    Is Rick Mears the best to ever run at Indy?  I think he may be.  The
    guy's not usually too exciting or dynamic in traffic, but with a
    record six pole positions and record-tying four victories (in less 
    years than anyone else has done it; he's still not even 40 yet!), I 
    don't think there's a better technical driver in Indy-car racing...
    
    glenn

 Rick Mears is an outstanding driver, no doubt about it.
 
 But it does help him to have Roger Penske's deep pockets backing him
 up, too.
 
 Bob Hunt

    3 of the 4 wins were from the pole position
    
    REK

    I rate Al Jr. as the best overall Indy Car (i.e., CART) driver,
    with Michael Andretti 2nd and maybe Mears 3rd.
    
    Mears, who came up in desert racing, is a_oval virtuoso.  But his
    road racing has been lackluster, although it's improved a lot over
    the last two years or so.  Compared to Foyt, who won Le Mans, Sebring,
    and other prestigious road races, Mears looks more like a specialist,
    but a very good one.
    
    CART is expected to announce this week plans to adopt FISA's 3.5 liter
    naturally aspirated engine formula.  This is significant.  This will
    break the stranglehold on CART held for years by the Ilmor Chevy engine.
    
    Should be fascinating to see what happens: The kit-car chassis will remain,
    (from Lola and March, mainly) but the door will be opened to superb engines
    from Honda, Ford (Europe), Lamborghini, Ferrari, in addition to many others.
    
    We could also possibly see crossover chassis, depending on how the rules
    on dimensions, weight, and floorpans stack up.
    
    Not coincidentally, AutoDromo is slated to open next year in Tokyo, sorta
    a Far East Brickyard.  This new oval is expected to be blindingly fast,
    and internationalizing CART's formula is no doubt intended to bring the
    sport over to at least part-time superspeedway oval racing, a laudable 
    goal (when compared to the overhyped worthless fakery NASCAR foists on
    those gullible hillbillies).
    
    MrT
    
    

    You think Ribbs' driving caused him to be 32nd or having a crappy car?
    

    re-1,
    	Both! He couldn't handle a good car, so they gave him a so,so car
    and his driving style did the rest!
    
    B.A.

    Sorry, I'm not familiar with what you're talking about.  I just assumed
    it was a lack of opportunity.  Can you add more to clarify how he
    couldn't handle it?

    Ok, somehow I'll figure out how an engine problem is the driver's
    fault?
    
    -Walt

    
    	Try over-rev!  Someone forgot to let the clutch out...:*)
    
    B.A.
    

Jeez, I'm no expert, but I thought the guy went out due to mechanical
failure, no more a case of ineptitude than the way Foyt went out.

Those cars only have like two gears.  Once you're up to speed, most of
your speed control is done with the throttle....

JMHO,
'Saw

    You don't qualify for Indy with either a crummy car or inept driving.
    
    I think Ribbs was just the victim of bad racing luck.
    
    
    py

Crumby luck is what the guy in the pickup truck had at Indy yesterday....

That and he was one neuron short of a synapse.....

'Saw

    	I looked [again] at the tape of the last day of qualifying
    	for the Indy 500.
    
    	Dave DeSpain had a commentary on the high cost of Indy. He
    	mentioned that they almost didn't get 33 cars into the field.
    
    	He said that the cost of the cars had to come down. He said
    	an Indy car right now cost about $500K and it needed to come
    	down to about $100K. He thought the change to normally
    	aspirated engines would help. He also suggested getting rid
    	of the ground effects.
    
    	DeSpain said that Indy could decide what the typical Indy car
    	would be like (I assume he meant different from the typical
    	CART car) and let CART do what they wanted about following
    	or going off on their own.
    
    	Scott

    'Saw,
    
    About the dude in the pickup truck at Indy.  I might be ignorant about
    the situation, but why was there a need to create a roadblock ( the
    van) on the track ?  The guy was definitely off his rocker, why give
    him something to crash into?  I mean, isn 't the race way enclosed,
    couln't they have closed all exits and trapped him, and looked for
    other means to stop him?  What gives, anyone know?
    
    MikeL
    
    

    Ribbs probably had bad luck in the actual race, but I believe he
    wrecked one car and blew a couple of other engines in the qualifying
    trials.  It took some fast work by his sponsors just to put a car
    together on the last day to get him into the race.  Being new to
    Indy-car racing, he is probably going to be better for the
    experience...
    
    glenn
    

re the guy in the pickup.

	It was assinine to put the van out there.  I was just trying to
	be funny.

	I don't know how he got on there to begin with.

re Ribbs

	Takes a while to get used to that track, or so I've heard....

    It's possible but not likely that Ribbs' DNF was his fault.  He 
    coulda overrevved the engine by running it in 5th gear in order to
    move up from his backmarker position in the early race (a common
    tactic).  He also coulda messed up his engine balance by improperly
    adjusting his turbo boost from his dashboard control.
    
    More, likely, though, the underpowered engine was overtuned in order
    to generate a competitive level of horsepower.
    
    >it was a lack of opportunity
    
    Bill Cosby displayed total ignorance and a complete lack of class
    with his victimist tirade to the press in the days leading up to the
    race.  Fack is, Ribbs has had top sponsorship all the way through his
    GTO career.  It's just tough for sports car drivers to crossover into
    CART - unless they're independently wealthy a la Dick Simonl.  His
    GTO nemesis, Scott Pruett, who is white, was forced to plunk down $75K
    outta his own pocket in order to rent a used ride two years ago.  Btw,
    Pruett outdid Ribbs in haid-to-haid competition in the GTO class.
    
    It's much more natural to come up through sprint cars and the ARS
    series into CART, as most rookies do.
    
    Also, sponsors want publicity, and being black was a_advantage to Ribbs
    in securing backing, not a detriment.
    
    Ribbs is not a self-serving crybaby like Cosby.  In interviews before 
    the race he was repeatedly asked to comment on Cosby's statements and
    clearly seemed uncomfortable with the humorless comedian and his ugly
    talk.
    
    MrT  

    Nyah shaddap willya B.A. 
    
    Take this question to the Nation's humorless comedian Bill Cosby.
    *He* is the one who saw fit to start pronouncing on a sport he knows
    nothing about from the aspect a race, not me.
    
    MrT

Tragedy struck yesterday at Watkins Glen, as veteran Winston Cup driver
J.P.McDuffie was fatally injured in a crash.

It appeared that the wheel came off, and he slid at a reported 160 mph 
into a crash barrier.  As the car hit the wall it flipped into the air.
(Spectaculary while it was in the air Jimmy Means car slid under it
and into the barrier) and then landed upside down.

Reports I heard say McDuffie was pronounced dead on the scene.


What gets me is that I've seen many other accidents all appearing to
be much worse (Michael Waltrip's accident, and Darryl's of a month or
so ago seemed much worse) yet with so little injury.


Ernie Irvan won the race eventually, but it was red flagged for almost
two hours as they put the barrier back together....


'Saw

    NASCAR has some serious safety problems.  They need to review their
    specs for crash cages.  They also need to look at the spec as far as
    handling.  NASCAR vehicles are, frankly, embarrassing as far as their
    handling, something plain to see during emergency maneuvers.
    
    MrT

>    NASCAR has some serious safety problems.  They need to review their
>    specs for crash cages.  They also need to look at the spec as far as
>    handling.  NASCAR vehicles are, frankly, embarrassing as far as their
>    handling, something plain to see during emergency maneuvers.

Well, I can't back any of this up other than what I've seen watching
races, but it seems to me those cars not *that* unsafe.

I look back to Michael Waltrip's crash into the wall that he walked 
away from, and to several that Darrel Waltrip has experienced (especially
the last one where he mega-cart-wheeled).  Neither were seriously injured.

I was surprised yesterday when the driver was killed, because in the last
few weeks I've seen crashes which looked much worse, where drivers walked
away.


Again, I'm no expert....

'Saw

 God forbid the day I ever become a NASCAR expert *and* I also
 recognize T's obvious interest and understanding of motor sports,
 but ...
 
 With that said, I, too, have believed for some time that NASCAR has
 an excellent safety record due to all kinds of car design factors
 like breakaway steering wheels, roll bar cages, carbuerator
 restrictor plates that cut down on the 200+ mph speeds, anti-lift
 spoilers, and so on ...
 
 I mean, I get a steady diet (believe me) of NASCAR footage on the 6
 o'clock news here and I've seen some crashes that hurt just to look
 at them.   And out pops Billy Joe Bob Elliott Bodine Waltrip with a
 dadgum smile on his face and a bottle of Mello Yello in his hand.
 
 I saw the footage of the Watkins Glen crash yesterday and I still
 don't know what killed the guy ... Was it the sideways impact with
 the restraining fence-wall or was it the upside-down impact on the
 roof ???    If he broke his neck when he landed on the roof, I'm not
 sure how much safer that car could have been.
 
 Will an autopsy report tell more about NASCAR safety ???   Are Indy
 cars safer ???  How about F1 ???  I'd like to know ...
 
 Bob Hunt

Well, I'm no expert, but I figured either a broken neck, or heart failure.

McDuffie was 52, and when you take that kind of an impact, it's got to be
brutal on the body.  When they interviewed Jimmy Means he said "JP took
a good lick"....

If I was a bettin' man, I'd bet broken neck....


Sad day no matter how you look at it.....

'Saw

    You make my point about NASCAR cars.  While F1, Indy, IMSA GTP, and
    GTO/GTU cars have developed to the point that, despite what B.A. sez,
    they cain actually provide a good deal a car control at speed, NASCAR
    cars give up all control very suddenly and totally.  This is why Bill
    "give me a fake yellow light or give me death" France, Jr.'s circuit it 
    the place to go now for cartwheel flips, rollovers, and 28 cars pile ups.
    
    Danny Sullivan went sideways at 220 MPH a few years ago and recovered 
    without leaving the course at all.  Scrubbed his tires, though.
    
    Go sideways in a NASCAR heap and you're in for a banging.  These cars
    have way to high a center a gravity, their moment of inertia is
    ridiculously volatile, and they're sprung for grooving at a_almost total
    cost to emergency control.  
    
    NASCAR is so focused on cost control that the framing and other safety
    systems have been shaved to the point of marginality.  They're designed
    to bang into walls instead a recovering at least partial control. 
    McDuffie's deat at the Glen was no coincidence: it's one a the few road
    courses they do and these sluggish heaps aren't up to snuff given the
    razor sharp margins a error scene on high speed road courses.
    
    Also, despite what B.A. sez, NASCAR Winston Cup has emerged as the most
    deadly form a big-time racing there is.  Although, with the end-of-race
    fake yellows it's hard for me to call Winston Cup big-time racing.
    
    MrT

    re-.1
    
    Hey "T":
    
    Is there anything that you don't know M'er F'in every G__D__N thing
    there is to know about??????Expert on All, knowledgeable about nun, er,
    none!!!!(8^0*
    
    
    JaKe
    

 I don't know enough about all the different cars to discuss their
 handling strengths and weaknesses.
 
 But, if we accept the fact that, for whatever reason, pure or impure,
 NASCAR's design specs sacrifice good handling at top speeds then we
 also have to acknowledge that those same specs also call for awfully
 good collision performance at those same high speeds.
 
 Because even to this untrained eye, I can not believe some of the
 crashes that these good ol' boys crawl out of with nary a scratch on
 'em.   Hell, most of them time they crawl out looking for a fist
 fight.   I've seen Darrill Waltrip get into some spectacular wrecks
 and all he ever wants to do afterwards is get his hands around Ernie
 Irvan's neck.
 
 For whatever reason, I don't care ... but those NASCAR machines can
 take a beating and can keep the guy alive.
 
 Bob Hunt

    
    	It has been reported that J.D. died of massive head injuries.
    
    	Also, his helment was half gone...
    
    B.A.
    

>    	It has been reported that J.D. died of massive head injuries.
>    
>    	Also, his helment was half gone...
    
Wow.

As usual, our paper reported nothing but the shortest blurb yesterday.
But there was enough Perrier-sipping, Brie-eating news about the
Volvo Tennis tourney to line the bottom of a birdcage for months.



At any rate, I like NASCAR cause the drivers are just good ol' boys.
I like lots of different type of racing sure, but NASCAR is cool to me
because I know it got started with boys running whiskey down the 
back roads of 'merica.

I feel closer to NASCAR drivers cause they're regular every day guys,
or seem to be.  


I love to watch Formula I and loved watching Jackie Stewart race.  He
was a normal every day guy who you knew cheesed a few off in that 
racing cockpit every now and again.  But Formula I has a lot of
Perrier-sipping pretty boys who take themselves way to seriously too...


The only think I don't like about NASCAR is laps under yellow counting.
But, even that has it's advantages on a long, hot, July afternoon in 
a crowded grandstand at Pocono when you're out of beer and just plain
tuckered out....



btw, JD McDuffie was one of the last independents on their on the NASCAR
Winston Cup circuit...


And Bob Hunt, if I ever get down there to tour the Rusty Wallace facility,
I'm gonna look you up!  8^)


'Saw    

    PROVE IT!
    
    Well, nobody has been keelt in F1 in a number of years.  Cain't think
    a anybody in CART, either, but if there has been any then it's been
    one.  Ditto for prototype sports cars.  Also, serious injuries are way
    down.  Why?  Advanced technology, which is also very expensive.  Bill
    "give me the fake late-race yellow to generate WWF-style excitement or
    give me death" France, Jr.'s circuit runs on the cheap.  Hell, they're
    just now going to radial tires, which I've driven my cars on exclusively
    for 15 years now.
    
    How many have been seriously injured or keelt in Winston Cup the last
    few years?  Be honest.
    
    There're 2 things I dislike about NASCAR:
    
    1.  The cars represent American auto technology: cheap and three
        generations behind the tech curve and incompetent handlers.
    
    2.  The races appear to be scripted by Vince McMahon.
    
    MrT

    Mr T, a F1 race car, earlier this year, killed a pit man in a race....
    
    REK

    Let me say that JD is alive, and that I had my helmet on - that's why
    we don't have no kids!
    
    JD

    re. 83
    
    Which is entirely irrelevant to the formula's level a technology and
    safety.
    
    >Not at 190 mph!  Get real T-aser!
    
    Ok: Maybe *I* don't (the fastest I've ever driven on radials is 155
    mph in a 427 Stingray), but CART, IMSA, and F1 routinely exceed 190
    on radials.
    
    B.A., in your heart you KNOW I'm right about all those late-race fake
    yellows, don't you?
    
    MrT

    You're all a bunch of hot air baloons!!!!  The TRUE grreat drivers are
    the day-ta-day commutersin Boston!!!!
    

    Speaking a ovals, B.A., which, btw, CART cars circle on radials, did
    you know that the AutoPolis facility (as seen on the spoiler of the
    Bennetons) is centered around a 2 1/2 mile banked superspeedway oval
    near Tokyo, and that CART will be racing there?  I believe it'll have
    a_infield roadcourse a la Daytona.  It'll be the world's foremost race
    facility when completed.  The Japanese are crazy for racing.
    
    Bet they'd love to see Darrell bump n' run with his master Dale on 
    that track...
    
    ... until they see their first late-race fake yellow, that is.
    
    MrT

    
    	Old news T...Been in the works for 2 years now...where have ya
    been? Looking for someone to dog out? :*)
    
    	C.A.R.T.  and NASCAR and some other group have expressed interest
    in racing there..should be a site for Japs...NO HONDA'S in the NASCAR
    field!
    
    B.A.
    

 
	Bill Cummings, a noted Motorsports follower of all types of racing 
had this to say about the comparison between NASCAR and C.A.R.T.

	"There is no comparison!" Cummings said Thursday. "Let me tell you 
something: They'll have more cars finish on the lead lap in NASCAR race then
the whole damn C.A.R.T season!".  "NASCAR is racing, C.A.R.T. is just a show!".

	C.A.R.T. is Championship Auto Racing Teams, the Indy car series 
sanctioning body based in Bloomfield Hills. NASCAR stands for National 
Association for Stock Car Auto Racing, based in Daytona Beach Fla. They 
form the major leagues of auto racing, but the are significantly different 
and don't appeal to the same fans.

	Although C.A.R.T. and NASCAR are similar in attendance,prize money 
and television exposure, attendance at Michigan International Speedway in 
compelling evidence that the speedway is a stock car stronghold.

	A sellout crowd of more than 90,000 attended the June race at MIS, 
and a overflowing crowd had to be turned away fro the infield for the first 
time in history, since 1969.

	CART's only 1991 MIS appearance two weeks ago, drew about 50,000 
fans, leaving 5,000 terrence seats in the infield unsold.

	"The thing you find on a larger scale in NASCAR, as far as the fans 
who come for our June and August races, is that they've planned one year in 
advance and arranged their vacations schedules, family reunions and 
everything else around it!". said Gene Haskett, MIS' vice president and 
general manager.

	Both types of racing have large followings, but the perception is 
that NASCAR fans are more loyal. A national survey conducted in 1986 by 
Fleishman-Hillard, one of the country's largest public relation firms, 
showed that 71 percent of racing fans said that they followed Indy cars, 67 
percent Stock cars.

	But among those who called themselves regular followers of 
Motorsports, 35 percent listed NASCAR as their preference compared to 26 
percent for Indy cars.

	Attendance for Indy car racing is larger nationally, however, 
mostly because of the Indianapolis 500, the nations premier race. It 
annually draws more than 400,000 on race day and more than 900,000 to all 
of its events during the month of May.

	Subtract Indy, and the 15 Indy race schedule averaged about 114,500, 
including practice and qualifying.  The 29 NASCAR events averaged 115,058.

	Roger Penske was asked about the MIS Indy race two weeks ago. It 
has been in the minds of alot of fans about the outcome of the race. 
Twenty-one cars started the race for the Marboro 500, the fewest for a 500 
mile race for Indy since 1915. Seven were running at the end and two were 
on the lead lap.

	Forty-one cars started the NASCAR race in June at MIS, won by Davey 
Allison. Thirty-two were running at the finish, including eight on the lead 
lap.

	The larger fields usually produce more side-by-side racing, and 
NASCAR's rules on competitiveness produce closer finishes.

	"But car count is on people's minds," said Penske. "You're not going 
 to have 41 guys who can afford sponsorship". The cost are vastly 
different. A typical Indy car runs about $400,000 including $100,00 for the 
engine. A NASCAR stock car cost about $60,000. A competitive stock car can 
run an entire season for about $1.5 million--more than three times less 
than the Indy cars.

	CART. run by a 24 member board of car owners, is a model in 
democracy often bogged down by self-interest.

	NASCAR as an organization, is considered a dictatorship that works!
"If we're a dictatorship, then we're a benevolent one!" said Jim Hunter, 
NASCAR's vice president for administration and a former journalist for both 
series.

	 "From a fan or participant standpoint, our philosophy is to 
produce on the racetrack the most competitive racing we can bring about. 
and our decisions are based on that,as opposed to (CART), where if somebody 
comes up with an advantage, they get to keep it!.

	The fans don't like runaway races, with no racing involved!
	
	After all,  NASCAR is racing!  C.A.R.T. is just a show!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Taken W/O permission from the paper. :*)

B.A.
	

    re 1
    
    Rules of competitveness?  Fake late-race yellows that only a truck
    driver with a 3rd grade education could swallow as legit, and a point
    scoring system that guarantees a close championship season at the 
    direct expense of rewarding winning.  
    
    No doubt that NASCAR has hit upon the perfect formula: A wildy popular
    series running cheap poor handling cars using old technology real slow
    around superspeedways that only Indy cars cain challnge that sponsors 
    value for the great expanses of sheet metal on which to plaster logos.  
    
    Ad rates are further enhanced by racing directors who are willing to 
    flash yellow lights for no reason with 5 laps to go so as to guarantee 
    that a 500 mile race with be reduced to a "dramatic" 5 lap heat at the
    direct expense of legitimacy.
    
    Oh, and don't forget the demographics NASCAR has, B.A.  You know, the
    one Bill Jr. like to brag about.  About how NASCAR's audience is about
    half comprised by housewives?
    
    That's what makes the whole NASCAR sham possible, B.A.  That people are
    gullible enough to swallow the WWF-style fakery.  And YOU are one of 
    them!
    
    MrT  
    

    re-1,
    
    	Damn right I am!  and I'll put NASCAR up against your silly CARTS
    any day!
    
    	Just face it T, you're jealous of the outstanding devotion of is
    NASCAR fans!  CARTS don't have fans..just wishful wantabes. I wish I
    could afford a car like that daddy...no way son, you have to be really
    rich and kiss lot's of A** to get one of those cars. Why not try one of
    the NASCAR styles..we can go down to the local car lot and get one of
    your very own.  That's gives you one happy kid and a even more happier
    father.
    
    	Get a grip on life T, CART is losing it to the wild bunch! NASCAR!
    
    B.A.
    

    >we can go down to the local car lot and get one of your very own.
    
    Of course this just ain't true.  Tube frames, reworked heads and
    valvetrains, totally reengineered suspensions, custom floor pans,
    and so on.  But, you and your housewife compadres indulge in fantasy
    in the first place so why not fantasize that these are "stock cars."
    
    >CARTS don't have fans
    
    This isn't true, either.  They have lotsa fans.  As many as NASCAR
    per race as your own numbers show.
    
    >I'll put NASCAR up against your silly CARTS any day!
    
    And over 500 miles you'd end up being lapped about 50 times.
    
    NASCAR is to CART what professional wrestling is to the NFL: Unreal.
    
    MrT

    
    See, car racing is a lot like rugby...
    

    
    
    C.A.R.T. is comming to N.H.I.S. (New Hampshire International Speedway)
    this July 4th. Should be a great show. For ticket info 603-783-4931.
    Prices range from 35 to 75 $'s and kids under 11 years of age are only
    5 dollars.

    Cart is alot like rugby !
    
    BG

Well, I'm all set for the Miller Genuine Draft 500 in July in the Poconos.

My brother got tickets and pit passes, so I'm going with him.  I'm kind
of psyched.  Went last July, and had a good time, but this time, he knows
a little more of what he's doing, so we're gonna stay over and what not.

Should be fun.


'Saw

    
    If you go could you get a copy of the track layout, It would be mucho
    appreciated. I'm thinking of going there for the WERA national.
    
    Thanks
    
    -TH

.x03

    
    	WTFC?
    
    	Clay.
    
    	:*)

    >	WTFC?
    
    A certain moderator who'll probably make Mark's note .103 and put his
    own .100 in its place. :-)
    
    
    py

Re the track layout:

	I'll see if my brother might have one that he'll either
	part with or let me xerox...


'Saw

    
    Thanks, It will be a real help if I decide to go down and compete. Some
    friends of mine said good/bad things about the track and I've never
    seena layout of it.
    
    I heard that a few sections of the track are lined w/armco barriers
    without much runnoff from the tarmacs edge in a few spots. Any input ?
    
    
    

>    I heard that a few sections of the track are lined w/armco barriers
>    without much runnoff from the tarmacs edge in a few spots. Any input ?


Perhaps the far sections.  The area in front of the grandstand is
a cement wall topped by the standard type of screen/fence.

I think it's a tri-oval, with the base along the grandstand.


I'll talk to my brother tonight if get the chance.


btw, we're sitting high in the grandstand, and tix were $55.  $125 will
get you into the really fancy areas with the free refreshments and babes
serving you and stuff 8^)


'Saw    
    
    

    i won't be spectating, rather competing if I decide to go. It's just
    that I have to spring for another license (They don't honor my current
    racing license, as they are a different organization) and I hate
    shoveling out the extra bucks.
    
    I have alway wanted to run the Pocanos, Tri oval you say ? Hmm just
    like Daytona, now thats a track.
    
    -TH

I have a friend who raced Formula Fords there.  They have a road course
in the infield, which cuts out a part of the tri-oval too I think....


I'll try to get that stuff from my bro soon....


'Saw

    That would be the course I would run, Not banked, yech...
    
    Actually nothing could be worse that Bridghampton raceway. Built in the
    50's with the same tarmac. It's very challenging though.
    
    
    

    I ran Bridgehampton in the mid-70's and didn't think it was
    that bad.  Didn't win but placed.
    
    from my hidden side, I remain,
    Kev
    

    The mid 70's to the 90's with little track maintainence makes a big
    difference. I have a good record at the 'Bridge', 4 wins, 5 2nds and
    plenty of top 5's. The problem that they have is the way the track was
    repaired when the surface was damaged. Filling holes with tar just
    does'nt cut it. 
    
    Traction becomes a nightmare when crossing different types of road
    surface, it eats many a riders.
    
    They had a full scheduale there this year, from april to november to
    try and get some money. New track management and increased land value,
    ment more taxes, so they decided  to run a full sheduale. 
    
    I guess that the land the track sits on if valued at some serious coin,
    and it's highly sought after by local developers. Not to mention the
    locals have wanted the racing to stop for years due to noise levels, so
    the instituted a sound ordinance at the track, 1 meter from exaust
    sound cannot exceed more than 103 db. That was for the 90 season. This
    year they went to stock pipes rule,and after the first weekend of
    racing I placed 7th. Never went back, because I could'nt get the carbs
    jetted properly with the stock pipes. This year I believe they are
    going back to the 103 Db rule. I shall return !
    
    
    I took a toss at around 100 mph in turn 12 comming out onto the straight.
    I was trying a new line, hit a bump, and I was airborne. The only thing
    I remember is pulling straw out of my helmet and the meatwagon ride
    back in a total state of daze.
     
    It's a good family type atmosphere, and the people are great. overall I
    really like racing there and I hope to have a good outing there this
    year.
    
    -TH

>    I took a toss at around 100 mph in turn 12 comming out onto the straight.
>    I was trying a new line, hit a bump, and I was airborne. The only thing
>    I remember is pulling straw out of my helmet and the meatwagon ride
>    back in a total state of daze.
     
Too Cool!!!!!


'Saw

    Re.-1 
    
    Not if you were my FZR!
    

>    Not if you were my FZR!


Did you high-side?

Or just go down and slide?

Bike mangled much?


'Saw    

    
    It was a wide open 4th gear turn, when I hit the bump it launched me
    into the outer partt of the track. At this time I was totally out of
    control, this followed by large bulging eyeballs, cotton mouth, and a
    rather large OH SHIT! As soon as the bike hit the  runoff I awas a
    gonner. 
    
    It just endowed about 6 or 7 times, wasted all the plastic, gauges,
    bars, brakes, amazingly the frame and tubes were straight. 
    
    I had it back together for a race the following weekend at NHIS. This
    only to be slammed (Tboned) by another rider while running 3rd. Definetley
    was'nt my month. At least that was last season.
    
    My best hi-side was at NHIS comming down the hill. Best crash of the
    weekend. .5 lap to go The rear decided it wanted to be part of the
    front end, came around and spit me off nicely. I bounced like a ragdoll
    center track being nearly missed by other riders. That crawl to the
    shoulder of the track was the longest in my life. Funny what you hear
    when crawling on the track. Thank god for some of the guys I race with,
    and the cornerworkers. 
    
    
    Most Notables-
    
    
    11th place daytona 3 hour endurance.  400cc (racing against 600cc
    bikes)
    9th place Daytona 400cc supersport
    6th place NHIS National 3 Hour Endurance.600cc

Too Cool!

AS Hawk says "I wanna party wif YOU!"


8^)

'Saw

    
    HELP!!!!!!!
    
    To anyone who was involved with the Cub/Boy Scouts Pinewood Derby
    
    HELP!!!!!!
    
    It's happening FRIDAY!!! (Yup, same day as the rugby lovefest) and
    I'm looking for any helpful hints to make our car a winnah!
    
    Seriously, anybody got any "legal" ideas on improving that 5oz. block
    of pine?
    
    Also, never even seeing a PWD, what is it like?
    
    btw, there is a close relationship between the pinewood cars and the
    Gen. Motor. note which is why I posted this here.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Kev
    

Grease the sh_t outta the bottom of the sucker, and fire it off...


btw, if you're missing our get together for a PWD, then I'm totally
hurt, and totally sad, and totally devastated....


so there!

8^)

'Saw

    Kev, I say this in all seriousness.  Find out if anyone in your
    vicinity, group, unit, neighborhood...anyone, was in a fraternity at
    Carnegie Mellon.
    
    Every spring they conduct what is called the Buggy Races.  It has
    progressed from pushing a frat brother around Schenley Park in a
    soapbox derby in the 1930's to a most high tech competition.  They rent
    trailers and do not let other teams peek at their state-of-the-art
    human propelled rockets until seconds before start time.  In these
    trailers they do such things as carbonate the wheels, mold fiberglass
    parts, etc.
    
    It IS rocket science.  
    
    Then they get the smallest, lightest person to ride in this thing that
    you wouldn't think a chipmunk could fit in, manually propell it around
    the park at speeds up to 70 MPH (downhill), and try to beat the other
    future NASA employees.
    
    I'm telling you, if you can contact one of these people, you'll have
    the sleakest, fastest gravity-propelled car ever built.
    
    	--dan'l

    --dan'l,
    
    Sounds like it could be a great idea but remember, I only have till
    Friday night AND accorsing to the "rules"(?), it should be the
    scout's project although Greg's shown zero interest in cutting the car
    from the block of wood, sanding it, working on the wheels, etc.
    
    I think he's slightly interested in painting it (with the spray can).
    
    I love watching (on Discovery???) the annual MIT contest where they
    provide a box of junk and the students have to make a vehicle climb up
    a ramp and knock the opponents car off the track.  Great stuff!
    
    I remain,
    still hoping for hints,
    Kev
    

    
    Shouldn't you have started this a little earlier, Kevin?
    
    Brews, remembering the lecture he got in the PWD.

    And, I'm not a parent, but if he's not interested, don't do it for him
    and let him take the consequences of not having it done.
    
    It's like a homework assignment ...
    
    John

Kev --

Give him the block o' wood, give him a spray can of paint.

let him paint the block o' wood, and enter it as is.

Nexted year, he'll understand that a block o' wood doesn't roll very well,
and show more interest....


Meantime, you come to the get-together...


It's called TOUGH LOVE....


hth,
'Saw

    Firsted off,
    
    Bruce, we started it over the weekend and heck, the bloody thing's
    only a 7" woodie x 2.75" x ~1.25".  It's been cut and sanded so 
    we're 70%+ finished.  The little tyke DID help a bit but the sanding
    turned him off (drilling holes in a piece of scrap wood with the drill
    press was much more fun.  It was even MORE fun when Digger, remember
    Digger - the_dog_who_thinks_he's_a_goat, came in the workshop, chomped
    down on a unused piece o' wood and promptly pranced out onto the
    backyard for a nice chew.  Greg's eyes became as wide as a prop butt
    and his jaw plopper open as he thought DtG (Digger the Goat) was 
    eating his race car!  He twirled around yelling "Digger!!!! No!!!!! 
    No!!!!", as the tears welled up in his eyes.  He calmed down when I 
    told him his car was over by me on a shelf.  Greg must have figured 
    that Digger needed some fiber in his diet 'cause he let the dumb dog 
    finish off a 3" x 2" x 5" piece of pine.
    
    Anyway, I didn't come here to tell ya the ballard of "Alice's
    Restaurant" (but my fingers ain't tired either)...... I came here
    to get some neat performance hints.  For example, it is recommended
    that powdered graphite be used as a lubricant for the wheels.  Does
    anybody know what name dry powdered Teflon is sold under?  I believe
    that Teflon is *slightly* superior to powdered graphite.
    
    Hey HawKenStEEn,
    
    The wheels they provide are about 1 1/2" diameter x ~1/2" wide.  If I
    replace them with wheels ~1/8" wide, which has a better performance,
    for my application?  I figure (in Theory), bigger width = better
    traction = faster acceleration  versus narrow width = less friction
    or rolling resistence = faster accelleration.
    
    Please show your calculations  ;^)
    
    Kev
    
    ps - I also removed a 1/2 chewed roller skate wheel from DtG's mouth
    earlier.....

    Kev,
       Try putting some powdered graphite, the stuff that goes in car door
    locks, where the axles meet the wheels.
                                     Denny

    
    
    	Kevin,
    
      I went through this last year with my son. 
    
    1. Shave the wheels down to allow the smallest contact area possible.
       Less friction = less drag  I turned our's in variable speed drill
       using a small nut/bolt setup and mill bastard for shaving. After
       removing most of the squared off wheel I used steel wool to make
       them smooth as possible.  
    
    
    2. Reduce the size of the nail head on the axle as much as possible.
       Less friction = less drag . Again, I turned it with a drill.
    
    3. Use emory cloth or steel wool to remove all seams or other spots
       from axle shaft. Still less friction. 
    
    4. Cut or Shape body down to some aerodynamic configuration. Be sure 
       the frontal area has enough mass to make contact with the starting
       device used for the race. 
    
    5. Add lead to make it as close to 5 oz. as possible.
    
    6. Wax it, till its slick as a calves posterior.
    
    7. Make sure axle are stable 
    
    8. Get wheels as close to body as possible. Wheel alignment is critical.
       the straighter it rolls the better. 
    
    9. Add Graphite powder to axles after every race if possible.
    
    10. Don't for get the paint adds weight.
    
    This car finished third after loosing twice to a car with .1 oz more weight.
    
    HTH
    
    Cadzilla

>    ps - I also removed a 1/2 chewed roller skate wheel from DtG's mouth
>    earlier.....
    
    What happened to the child that used to be attached to it?
    

    
    Try a chain drive powered by a cockroach in the cockpit.
    
    Dickstah
    

    Kev -
    
    Just let yer son paint it in the most bitchin' way he cain.  Who cares
    if it goes fast!  It'll attract the brownies!
    
    JD

    Kev, I went thru this some time ago.  My son was kinda lukewarm about
    it, so I didn't push him.  But, I was an assistant leader, and there
    was to be seperate races for the leaders, so I got to make my own car.
    
    Yep, powdered graphite works great!  Don't forget the weight.  I
    drilled a large hole in the bottom, then some smaller holes radiating
    from the larger one.  Kept adding solder until I go just under the
    limit.  The car had a pretty smooth profile, but I didn't get to carve
    the tires down.  We were told that we HAD to use the equipment given
    and no modifications were allowed except to carve the block.
    
    It was a lot of fun.  I blasted the other leaders out of the hall.
    
    Lee

    
    	It's off to Daytona we go! Time for some fun in the sun, cold beers
    and door to door racing!
    
    	Man, whadda place to be! Daytona!
    
    	See ya back here Tuesday the 18th!
    
    

>    	It's off to Daytona we go! Time for some fun in the sun, cold beers
>    and door to door racing!
>    
>    	Man, whadda place to be! Daytona!
>    
>    	See ya back here Tuesday the 18th!


Have a GOOD one pardner...


Want a full report on how Joe Gibbs team seems to be.  If he goes after
NASCAR the way he went after the NFL, watch out...

If you see Rusty Wallace, tell him I said hi...8^)


Can't wait for July in the Poconos!


'Saw    
    

 Now here's a piece of news guaranteed to send MrT off into thigh
 shuddering spasms of ecstatic delight ...
 
 Guess who's taking race car driving lessons at Buck Baker's school in
 Rockingham, North Carolina ???   And he hopes to drive in a few NASCAR
 Grand National races this summer ...
 
 
 
                             Jerry Glanville
 
 Dat's right ... The Falcons' bossman is putting pedal to metal and hittin'
 the down South ovals.  First reports are that he's not bad at it, too.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  It was definitely a s-l-o-w sports news day here in Charlotte today.

> 
> Guess who's taking race car driving lessons at Buck Baker's school in
> Rockingham, North Carolina ???   And he hopes to drive in a few NASCAR
> Grand National races this summer ...
 

There's a contest sponsored by Winston in this month's edition of that
fine art magazine, Playboy, wherein the winner gets to go to a school
like this for free.

I'm gonna sign up for my brother, and attest to the fact that he
smokes three packs a day.  (Hell, I smoke more than he does, and you
all know how much *I* smoke)....



Actually, this school sounds like a wicked lot of fun.


'Saw

>              -< Daytona @ Easter break is better! Right dan'l?? >-
    
    Don't know.  Never had to travel that far to get some. ;-}
    
    	--dan'l

    Bob,
    
    	Good ole Glanville posted a speed of 140+ at Rockingham last
    Tuesday. He's planning on entering some BGN races this year as well.
    
    B.A.
    

Personally, I think it's great.


I mean, here's a guy who is having a chance to live a dream.  Very
few people ever get to do that.  He had an opportunity, took it, and
seems to be making the best of it.  I have to take my hat off to that...


'Saw

    Car racing is a lot like rugby.........
    
    
    HTH,
    
    Nelly

    Once a year the Charlotte Motor Speedway opens up to those who would
    like to take their cars out on the track.  You have to pay an arm and a
    leg and sign a bunch of release papers before they let you.
    
    I've often thought about taking my Mustang GT out there to do that. 
    I'd love to see how fast my machine can really go.  I had it up over
    100 once and it was telling me it could do a lot better.
    
    I just don't have the several hundred dollars to find out.
    
    	--dan'l

It just goes to show you that stock driving isn't an athletic sport. It's not
even a sport, per say. When an uncoordinated fat slob off the street with no
"experience" like Glanville can jump into a car and roar around the track and 
think about entering races you know it's the pit crew and the car doing all the
work and the driver doing none of it.

Car racing is about as much a sport as cutting your lawn is.


Metz

    Metz,
    
    Lemme tell ya, at my house cutting the lawn IS a big sport.  First ya
    get to race the chipmunks to the nearest tree.  Sometimes me and the
    Wheel Horse wins and chip'n dale loses bigtime! ;^)  Then it's time to
    race the garter snakes over to the brush, then we power it up and race
    the 'skeeters back to my house.
    
    Ya see, it is a sport for all!  Many races, some dissapointments
    and pain!
    
    You should try it instead of letting all the neighborhood teenagers 
    have all the fun (while you pay them I might add).
    
    Hal Tried Hard,
    Kev
    

    re.148
    
    Maybe you think racing is not a sport, have you ever tried it ?
    
    If you think racing is so easy, I'll let you take out my FZR @ NHIS
    for 10 laps, Gareenteed you would either poop yourself or be to fatigued
    to do another 10 laps.
    
    I would'nt knock it unless you've done it.
    
    Re. Mustang on the track, Go for it. Just get together with a
    suspension guy and have him set it up for you, you won't regret it !
    
    
    -TH
    
    

I've never raced my motorcycle, but I have done some awfully crazy
high speed stuff on backroads and the highway with it... before I got smart.


The most fatiguing thing about any kind of high speed pursuit is the
concentration required.   You're always a hairs breadth away from death
and believe me, that makes you sit up and take notice.

There are physical elements involved.  

If I get in my truck to drive 2 hours to Nashua for a get together,
I've got tunes on, my seat is comfortable, driving is one-hand-on-the-wheel,
and easy.  Yet still I get there and I'm tired, or at least need to
stretch my legs.

Now, sit in a stock car, going at 140, concentration to the max for
2 hours, and you'll crawl out of that car exhausted.


A race is the coordination of the crew chief, the driver (not only driving
by radioing the pit crew about set up and stuff) and of course, the
pit crew (can I be the jack man, please????)....


'Saw

    
    Re.-1
    
    Bingo.
    
    Concentration of that magnatude requires a body somewhat fit do do it.
    
    -TH

Geez,

before you blow an artery and I get sued for homicide go back and read the 
title of .148......

and we're talking stock car racing, not motorcycle racing. Do you think Jughaid
Glanville is enough of a athelete to try motorcycle racing? That actually 
requires a little body movement and some balance...

I'll even give Grand Prix racers some credit for athleticism. At least they
have to turn the steering wheel both directions :-)


metz

    Did'nt see the smilies....Motorcycle roadracing is without a doubt
    sheer excitment. 
    
    I have never seen this glanville guy, is he built like a tomato can ?
    

Metz.

I wasn't getting personal, or even taking you mondo seriously.  I was
just getting on my soapbox...


And let's keep in mind that there is a WORLD of difference between doing
a few laps on a closed track at 140, and doing it in what NASCAR calls
traffic...  Glanville ain't proved nothing yet...


'Saw

    
    	NASCAR racing, like any other (sport) needs a team effort to be
    successful. I agree that Glanville probably needs to shed about 30
    pounds to do some *serious* driving. I think he's just in it to see if
    he can compete. I think not, but I admire him for trying.
    
    	     You ask some of the drivers after the Dover race in 100+ temp
    in the cars if their not worn out!
    
    	It's still going to get a laugh out of me when I see him crawl out
    of his car...:*)
    
    B.A.
    

To me, I think the coolest thing in the world would be to be the
jack-man on Rusty Wallace's pit crew.

The jack man gets to carry that 70 pound jack over the wall, pump it
three or four times to get the car up (on both far and near side).

Truly an activity for a prop-sized individual......


'Saw

    The pit crew is so important during racing and pit road is probably
    one of the more dangerous places to be during a race.  
    During Endurance races that I run in, (3hour) the hot pits are full of
    action.
    
    Picture a motorcycle crew with pits far down pit lane so he comes into the
    pit and cruises through at 80-100 mph, rider is tired, fatiged and the bike
    is scorching hot and out of gas. Your shield is semifogged, and the
    outside is splattered with road grime and suzukiyamahahondakawasaki
    smegma.
    
    Up ahead you see your pit sign XXX racing with the arrow on the 
    the pit board pointing downward,  your crew ready for refill, brake and
    tire check, rider change, and that lovely bottle of chilled water. 
    
    As you focus on the arrow your in 4th gear pulling redline ripping
    past all the other teams like a madman, forearms pumped, hands glued to
    the bars, (Your arms are numb from a 40 minute stint, and your fingers
    are severly cramped, with little repsonse). All thgis time you know you
    get to turn the bike over to the next team mate, Just like running a
    relay race, except you the baton.
    
    Downshifting to 3rd and a quick classic 4 stroke throttle blip, and
    then into 2nd. A usual misjudge in speed now it's a front and rear
    wheel slide,As you squeeze the front brake lever back to the bar you
    say to yourself oh Sh*t and see the  other teams pit crews are running for
    cover, jumping back over the wall to the saftey of their tents, all the
    while muttering four letter words. 
    
     You stop the bike and the crew takes over, one guy with the fire
    extingusher, another two for the refuel, other gets the bike on the
    stand for it's checkout. all this in 10 seconds (Slow compared to cars)
    and the fresh rider is being qued by you as to what the output of the
    bike is giving and where the track bad spots are.
    
    At completion, your off of pit lane and your top notch crew cleans up
    any debris that may be left on the hot pits, off the stand, rev her to
    10 grand feather the clutch and hole shot onto the infield.
    
    Meanwhile the crew debrief you of your times, standings, archrivals
    positon, and what the new rider has to accomplish. You sit back, suck
    it in knowing you'll be back out ther in a short while, peel off you
    soaked leathers and dunk your head into the cooler of ice. The constant
    ringing in your head won't stop for about 3 hours and you hear four
    stroke exausht notes singing you to sleep that night.  But in
    reflection when you place top 5 you thank your teammates and you crew
    for a job well done, without them it would all be impossible.
    
    
    Oh yea, I almost forgot, that after race brewski(s) taste almost to
    good to be true.
    
    
    -TH
    

    Anybody planning to see the Monster Trucks at the Centrum this
    Friday or Saturday?
    
    deen to wonk,
    Kev
    

       So Kev, are you going so you cain hide under onea the seats until
    the NCAAs?
                                     Denny

    That's partially correct Denny!  I'm also going cause I've been asked
    by Hawk to look for a car for him - one that can stand up to his
    wife's abuse and that doesn't need too much maintenance!
    
    I suppose you're wondering why? (even if not, I'm gonna tellya)
    
    Over the weekend, I was in a auto repair shop up in Haverhill and I see
    this lady with a couple o' kids in the waiting room.  Her car's up on
    the lift, hood's open, parts are scattered all over the place and
    there's this mechanic-type using a wrench.  Watching him and asking all
    these questions was a girl who looked like she was of high school age.
    Then there was a little kid too - the one asking all the questions
    about "what's that?" and "what does that do?" Non stop.
    
    I think the kid was environmentally aware because he kept asking
    questions about recycling oil and tires and stuff but the killer was
    when he asked "What happens to old, beat up, dirty and broken cars?"
    
    The guy replied...

    
    
    John Szabo buys them!!!!!!
    
    ta boom!
    
    Kev
    

    So, why didn't ya call me, Kev?  
    
    Then again, it was probably better that ya didn't... :-)
    
    Hawk
    

    Running of the 51st Daytona 200 results.
    
    Superbike
    
    1.Scott Russel Muzzi Kawasaki zx7R
    2.Doug Polen Fast by Ferracci Ducati 888
    3.Mike Smith Commonweath racing Honda RC30
    
    Formula II
    
    1. Colin Edwards Davhar racing Yamaha TZ250
    2. Cris D'alusio Davhar Racing Yamaha TZ250
    
    Pro Twins
    
   1. Doug Polen   FBF ducati 888
    
    The superbike race saw one of the best ever with Russell drafting by
    Polen's Ducati on the last lap. Polen led for most of the Race with
    some serious dicing going on for the lead. Lack of a pace car comming
    out ment serious track time and non stop racing, and it came down to
    the wire, Polen getting nipped by a wheel.
    They were turning 1:50 on the 3.56 mile road course with speeds up to
    180 mph on the east banking. Awesome.
    
    Formula II saw first year pro (and 17 years old) Colin Edwards of texas
    beat out favorite Cris Dlauiso, in his 2nd pro race. Quite a feat, as
    he has erased any doubt's in anyone's mind if he can race with the big
    boys. (these bikes are 2 cylinder's ~90 horse and weigh just 210lbs,
    Kind of like putting yourself on a tenspeed with a rocket motor!).
    
    In Pro Twins Polen was just unbeatable.
    
    
    -TH

Well, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this, but I will.  I'm not
a big Bill Elliot fan, but you cannot overlook the fact that he's pulling
a Harry Gant and has won the last three races in a row.

I'm lamenting somewhat the poor showing by my main, Rusty Wallace, but I've
heard he has pit crew problems.  This was evident at Rockingham (I believe,
or it might have been Daytona -- hazy memory) where he was running first
or second for quite a while, then had a bad pit stop....


I wonder if Rusty needs a new jack man.  I been pumpin' iron for a while
now, and I know I could handle that jack likes it's a leetle toy jack....


Cain't wait for July....  got ma tickets and my pit pass....



'Saw

    Re Saw,
    
    Are you going to the races @ NHIS in July ? I may be there if my
    tickets come through from the Bud rep. (I'm there for 7 regional
    events, one national event and tons of practices, and don't like
    spending the cake to see a race). 
    
    I should know in a month or so if they come through, if so maybe we
    could meet for a brew ?
    
    
    -TH

>    Are you going to the races @ NHIS in July ? I may be there if my
>    tickets come through from the Bud rep. (I'm there for 7 regional
>    events, one national event and tons of practices, and don't like
>    spending the cake to see a race). 


NHIS?
    
I'm not familiar with that.... Is that Loudon?


The only thing I'm scheduled for right now is the Miller Genuine Draft 500
in Pocono in the middle of July.   My brother and I have tickets and
pit passes.   I'd love to meet Rusty Wallace, but who knows if that'll
happen.


Otherwise, I'll take bribes....8^)


'Saw

    
    Yes, NHIS is Loudon, (New Hampster International Speedway) and they
    have an Indy race there on the 4th of July. The round was taken from
    Penske and co. from Cleveland, I believe.
    
    
    P.S. Tell Rusty I said hi.
    
    -TH

>    Yes, NHIS is Loudon, (New Hampster International Speedway) and they
>    have an Indy race there on the 4th of July. The round was taken from
>    Penske and co. from Cleveland, I believe.
    

Hmmm.... I think my brother might have been trying to get tickets to that
race.  I'll have to ask him if he did.

    
>    P.S. Tell Rusty I said hi.
    
If I see him, I will.  

I'll definitely be majorly woody-ward in the Pits on the day before the
race.   One of the things I noticed last July was how much more colorful
the cars are in real life than on TV.  TV doesn't do the colors justice.

To be down close, get to look inside, see the engines and stuff will
be FUN....


'Saw

    REults from the lemans 24 hour Motorcycle Race. 9 dead ~50 wounded.
    
    This from the spectators, that like to drink and drive and tear the
    place up, causing general mayhem. 
    
    No racers were killed, this was a result of fans going nuts.
    
    Swell huh ?
    
    -TH 

I'm not surprised.  

It's usually the Isle of Man race where the cyclists get killed 8^)


'Saw

    
    	I'm surprised that we haven't heard you Mr T yakking about those
    mini rockets up in Indiana that have "Drive to your Death" as a
    sponsor!
    
    	What speeds!  233+  will they ever stop?
    
    B.A.

    
    I hope they go faster... Mears crash makes great news pictures...
    
    REK

     I cannot believe the speeds these guys are driving at. Also the
    engineering that goes into the saftey of these F1 vehicles is 2nd to
    none, Case in point, Rick Mears, and Nelson Piquet.
    
    I wonder if Piquet takes Indy lightly now, aftet eating a little wall
    at over 200+ mph.
    
    Heck I even had a decent weekend Up at ol NHIS. Came home in one piece,
    with bike and body, I don't think I accomplished that once last season. 
    
      -TH

    	I can remember when people were scared about them going over
    	150 and then 180.
    
    	Time to make the cars less expensive. Get rid of the turbos and
    	increase the engine displacement.
    
    	I hope Lyn St. James gets in. She looked a little concerned.
    
    	scott
    

    
    Ya also gotta consider the track itself @Indy.  Is the surface
    good enuf to "support" these 220+ mph vehicles?  
    
    Qwak, you're the resident fizzacist, how about calculating the
    "recommended" bank and slope of the track?  Present dimensions would
    also be neet.
    
    Go for it & it's OK to use your eunichs machine....
    :^)
    
    I remain,
    a college grad (as of Monday 5-18)
    Kev
    

    
    
    I don't know what the banking is or what type of surface it at Indy,
    but Daytona has 32' banks and the surface has crushed seashells in it.
    When I raced there I could'nt believe the traction, the place is built
    for one thing and one thing only, SPEED.
    
    I imagine Indy is the same way, heck they were doing 220 mph 20 years
    ago, and Tire technology is nowhere near what it is today.
    
     I don't think that increasing engine displacement is the answer, nor
    is getting rid of all the latest technology stuff. In F1, or GP type
    racing, any edge whithin the rules will be taken. Personnally, the
    more advanced and radical it is, the better. They have vintage racing
    events for the nostalgists that want to see open wheeled, normally
    aspirated, V8/10/12's. 
    
     
    
    -TH

    	I should have prefaced my comments about getting rid of turbos
    	and increasing displacement with the following:
    
    		"Indy is so expensive. They barely got 33 cars
    		 qualified last year. To open it up a little,
    		 they should get rid of the turbos and increase
    		 the engine displacement to something like
    		 3.5 liters. That would open it up for other
    		 engine makes and bring the cost down."
    
    	These thoughts are not original with me. I first heard them
    	last year from some of the commentators at Indy who thought
    	$500K a car was too much. With the above changes, they thought
    	the price would come down to about $100K a car.
    
    	Scott

    Thats to me 100K a car is totally unrealistic. Superbikes (750cc) are
    worth that much in todays AMA Superbike series. They can't be serious 
    when talking about a gp car for 100k. 
    
    Engine displacment has been lowered because of saftey concerns, that is
    what I have been told.
    
    People who want to race Indy cars will always complain that it is too
    expensive. I agree, but racing has never been cheap. There is an old
    saying in motorsports, that still holds quite true today.
    
    If you want to go fast, it all depends on how much money you have.
    The fasteste guys in any form of racing are always the best financed
    with the latest and best equipment. You can't race on a shoe string
    buget and those that think they can will always wonder why they never
    go fast.
    
    The basic equation is this:
    
    
    Large Testies X Lotsa moolah X No wife/girlfriend X lotsa time =
    
    One fast dude!
    
    
    HTH,
    
    -TH

 Headline in today's Charlotte Observer sports page ...
 
                      "Earnhardt Takes A Test Drive"
 
 I kid you not.  Dale Earnhardt, Chevy's kingpin, took a test ride in one
 of the hot new Fords that have been burning up the NASCAR circuit this
 year.  And this is a *HUGE* piece of news down in these heah parts. 
 
 Forget the NBA 'offs or Laettner's slot on the Barcelona squad or Larry
 Johnson's imminent ROY award ... Nah, ol' Dale done revved hisself up a
 Ford and things ain't gonna be the same around heah no mo'.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Wow, That's wild. I always thought that the contracted driver could'nt
    drive the oppositions cars. Then again, ya gotta like those good ol'
    boys, they pretty much do what they want, when they want.
    
     The southern race media must be having a field day.
    
    
    -TH
    

    
    	At Indy the turns are 12 degrees banking...looking at 160+ speeds.
    
    
    	As for Dull driving a FORD..it's the only way he can see what it's
    like to run up front! 
    
    	He's going to Pontiac next year anyways, unless the KING changes to
    FORD!
    
    What is the world coming too....?
    
    B.A
    
    

>    	As for Dull driving a FORD..it's the only way he can see what it's
>    like to run up front! 
>    
>    	He's going to Pontiac next year anyways, unless the KING changes to
>    FORD!
>    
>    What is the world coming too....?
    
Just wait'll Rusty gets it on track next year....8^)


'Saw    
    

    
    	Come on down! I'll join ya!  I wouldn't mind doing the pit-crew
    scene.
    
 	I don't care if it is for Wusty Wallbanger! :*)  It would be fun!
    
    B.A.

> 	I don't care if it is for Wusty Wallbanger! :*)  It would be fun!
    
HA!  Rusty's fine.  It's that Ernie Irvan guy you gotta watch out for!

;^)

'Saw

    How';s Dick Trickle doing?
    

 Coming along.

Actually his career has gone a bit limp. He was shut out in the early
pre-season and didn't get the car that he thought he was going to have.

TTom

Ernie was taken to task last year (or season before last, I forget) for
just what you mentioned Bob.  I've seen that guy put more people out of
races, and come through okay.

The drivers got on his case, and I guess were ready to blackball him.  He
made an empassioned plea saying he knew he had to re-earn their respect
etc etc etc.

This season, he seems to have forgot all about that, because his new line
is "I'm an agressive driver, it's the only way I know how to race and
it's the only way I will race"....



One guy that never fails to amaze me is Dave Marcis.  Hasn't finished in the
top ten in ages but is still out there.  I used to work with his mother-in-law
about 16 years ago.  Interesting story....


'Saw

    	I have a friend from Concord, NC. His daughter works for
    	a newspaper that deals with stock-car racing. His son-in-law
    	is one of the engine men for the Kenny Bernstein/Geoff Bodine
    	Quaker State car. I even got to tour the shop last summer.
    	Tons of equipment, their own dyno, engines all over the place.
    
    	If you don't like stock-car racing and live in the area, you're
    	gonna be like a duck outa water.
    
    	Scott

              <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 39.175                 GENERAL MOTOR SPORTS NOTE                 175 of 197
RAVEN1::B_ADAMS "Light up the Queen City!"            8 lines  11-MAY-1992 15:24
                            -< Black Death Alley! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    	I'm surprised that we haven't heard you Mr T yakking about those
    mini rockets up in Indiana that have "Drive to your Death" as a
    sponsor!
    
    	What speeds!  233+  will they ever stop?
    
    B.A.
    
    
    	Well I was hoping that this didn't come true but I'm sure you've
    all heard by now about the death of the rookie driver at Indy.
    
    	One of those ironic accidents...not really going *real* fast 220...
    but just hit his head the wrong way.
    
    	Also, a Sportsman driver was killed at Charlotte over the weekend
    from burns he received while in a qualifying race.  Not a petty sight.
    
    B.A>

    Can someone here explain to me how qualifying works at Indy. Seems like
    there are days and days and days of qualifying. Drivers who qualify a
    car don't have to actually drive the car in the race. All kinds of
    strangeness that I can't quite follow.
    
    Mets in '92
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    	Picks for the Indy crash'em race this weekend...
    
    	Checkerd flag!  it will be Mears...I think! :*)
    
    B.A.

      Look for any Andretti or Unser Jr.  

    Isn't any Andretti kind of vague?  That's half the field, right?
    (ha ha)... 
    
    I'll take Crawford.

    	What a race!!!
    	What a finish!!!
    	What a Joke!!!
    
    	12 cars finished out of 33...11 on the lead lap...the first crash
    was before the race got started...it took 30 after everycrash to clean
    up...16 lead changes..that's pretty god I guess for this type of
    racing...but it was with only 5 drivers...
    
    	Average speed was 134.479..took 3:hours:43 minutes: and 4.9 sec.
    
    	Margin of Victory was .043 sec  The closet in the history of the
    race...happens all the time in NASCAR...:*)
    
    	Point Standings...Rahal 61, Unser Jr, 56  Fittipaldi 48
    
    	Lots of wrecks though...that was fun to watch...
    
    B.A.
    	

Aside from the fact that I'd rather have a barium enema than see
"Li'l Al" win a race, it was a pretty boring 500.

I was pulling for Michael Andretti.  Man did his car have cojones or what?

'Saw

      Yeh any Andretti was vague, but I figured the odds were there. 
    Wasn't there like 4 of them in the race?
    
      I heard the race on the radio while driving to a camp spot, and I was
    kinda hoping Micheal would win,  but unser Jr  is fine.
    
      I think these 2 guys are going to be on top for the next few years.
    
    	Tim

    
    I thought I read that Michael Andretti was going to drive formula I
    next year.  Any truth to the previous statement?
    
    \pjb

    Andretti lost his fuel pump with ~20 laps remaining and a comfortable
    lead.  This makes the score:
    
    Unser   family - 8
    Andretti  "    - 1
    
    The Unsers benefit from every Andretti mistake at Indy.
    
    Mike

    Mike Adretti lose his fuel pump with 11 laps to go.... 26.5 miles.....
    There were only 3 drivers on the same lap... everybody else was laps
    down....
    Jean St. Jean? what ever her name is won the Indy Rookie award for her
    11th place finish...
    
    Goodyear came from 33rd to finish 14 feet behind Unser....
    
    REK

    	Lyn St. James
    
    	Scott

    Every paper I picked up in the last week had an up close and personal
    story about Lynne ST. JAmes.
    
    AMazing a driver qualifies on the 11th row out of 13 and is the feature
    story for 3 weeks in the national press. She was even on the news.
    (prime time)
    
    Granted she qualified and finished @ Indy which is no small feat I
    also  wonder how any other driver would have been treated, had they not
    been able to qualify using the engines brand that they where sponsored
    with and  switched engines. LSJ is on the board of development for Ford
    and she qualified qwith a chevy motor, just to make the grid.
    
    
     I wonder how any other teams/drivers would have been treated. 
    
    Future sponsors would have gone right out the window, and probably a
    lawsuit. (She did get permission from Ford, which is amazing)
    
    
    I just get tired of reading about less than average talent getting all
    the press, when they are just  BAckmarkers for the leaders to be
    aware of.
    
    Before anyone accuses me of being a whatever, I fully understand what
    LSJ accomplished by finishing Indy is no small feat. My hat is of to
    her, and I wish her luck in future events, sponsors will have there
    eyes open and wallets ready.
    
    But if you look at the whole picture, she a less than average driver,
    with a serious  sponsorship problem (Pre Indy). 
    
    
    -TH
     

    You're right about LSJ, it was a gender thing.  
    
    While it's notable that anyone could finish this 500 given how 
    Goodyear totally screwed up with no compound drivable in the low
    temperatures, it's less so with LSJ.  She drove so carefully that
    using the word racing for what she did is tough.  The only reason
    she finished so high is that the compound problem crashed the bulk
    of the field, all of whom were pushing the envelopes of their 
    respective car's set-ups (i.e., they were racing).
    
    HTH,
    MrT

             <<< DLOACT::APP$DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARBUFFS.NOTE;2 >>>
                                 -< Carbuffs >-
================================================================================
Note 386.851            Radar Detectors and Ratings Note              851 of 869
ASD::BODEGA::KRIMN                                  288 lines  12-JUN-1992 15:23
                           -< Is this for real ??!! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.autos,rec.autos.driving
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Subject: Trolling for Tail Lights: The Game (was Re: Ham Use of X and K band)
Date: Sat, 30 May 92 07:48:44 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

There is a new perfectly legit and immensely fun sporting application of
A1 emissions on X & K band.  This sport even has a name, a set of rules
and a budding guild for practitioners of the art.

That art is, of course, Trolling for Tail Lights or Tactical Applications
of Negative Speed Insertion.  I am proud to be a founding member of the
National TFT Guild :-)

Here are the rules.  Use and Enjoy!:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Trolling for Taillights (and related Effluvia)
                          Draft 3.0 (05/25/92)


Introduction

Trolling For Taillights (TFT) is becoming one of America's fastest
growing highway participatory sports.  It is loads of fun, requires
only modest equipment and achieves justice on the highway.  And it is
Good Clean Fun (TM) at least until the target has to clean his drawers.

TFT refers, of course, to the sport of communicating to other drivers
by stimulating their radar detectors and observing and recording their
responses.  Only simple radio equipment is needed:  an old microwave
burglar alarm will do fine.  More sophisticated equipment such as
a Kustom KR-11 Instant On Moving Police Radar will yield better and more
consistent results.  Nontheless $10 worth of Gunn Oscillator will
achieve quite adequate scores if the proper skills are practiced.

How it Works:

Think of RADAR as a Tractor Beam.  It's a vector-subtraction
ray, a  negative speed insertion device: If the target is ahead,
it sucks them back toward you; if they're behind, it pushes them
away. One can also think of it as a high-tech version of the
American Indian game of counting coup.   In short, think of it
as evolution in action, as in Road Warrior.

Safety First:

Because the target of your trolling may react erratically, certain basic
safety rules are necessary.

*   No trolling of vehicles with less than two car lengths of clearance
    behind and in the lane to either side (if applicable.)  This allows
    for an Unindended Deceleration Transient (UDT.)

*   No trolling of Texas Cadillacs (pickemup trucks.) with large dogs
    standing on the toolbox.  The dog might not like it.

*   A minimum of 1/10 mile clearance between you and the target is
    required if the target is placarded with any of the following:

    "Flammable"
    "Explosive"
    "High Explosive"
    "Radioactive"
    "Nuclear Weapon"  (2/10 mile for this one.)


Special Awards:

It is desirable to recognize outstanding fishermen in our ranks.  Accordingly
the following special award catagories are established:

*   The Million Dollar Club - A million total points.

*   The Kilobrake Trophy - Causing one thousand Brake applications.

*   1000 Points of Light - Causing the most simultaneous brake lights
    in any one year.

*   Worked All States (WAS) - Snagging a trophy catch originating from each
    of the 50 states.

*   Golden Jam Award - Causing the largest traffic jam as a result of
    trolling WITHOUT involving a wreck in any one year.

If you think you qualify, contact the management for your award.  Video
tape is highly recommended for scoring purposes and for documenting
when the cop mistakes your head for a baby Harp Seal.

Rules of Engagement:

Trolling posture

    Proper trolling posture is in the right or next to right lane with
    the Radar at the ready but out of sight and de-energized.  Speed
    should be at or slightly below the speed limit.

Eligible Targets

    An eligible target is any vehicle that meets the above safety
    specifications and has a radar detector.

Target Selection

    A target proceeding at greater than 20 mph over the posted speed
    limit is the most fertile in terms of variety of actions and presents
    the best odds of winning Adders and Multipliers.

Firing techniques

    Forward - Wait until the target is a few car lengths in front of you
    and fire phasers.  Best results are achieved if the Radar is
    bounced off a sign or overpass ahead of both you and the target.  It
    is best to confine your range to that where you know your Radar
    will cause the target's detector to go full scale.

    Rear - Generally confined to eliminating Rear Bumper Dwellers because
    of the difficulty in scoring, the best technique  is known as the
    Annie Oakley style.  Simply lay the Radar across your shoulder and
    fire.  Since you are achieving line of sight contact with his
    detector, the results are spectacular.  The Tractor beam in action.

Setting up for Subsequent Shots:

    If you have a target that appears to be fertile for a repeat multiplier,
    the best technique is to wait a minute or two and then pass the
    target.  This encourages the target to resume trolling speed again.
    Lead the target for awhile to build his confidence and then lift the
    throttle and coast.  Allow the target to pass you again and when
    you achieve minimum clearance, fire again.  Repeat Phasors coupled
    with the vague recollection in the target's mine that you just
    slowed way down will generally lead to spectacular trolling.
    This technique can be use up to about 5 times (10 on yuppys and lawyers)
    on a given target before he figures something's up.  About the
    4th or 5th shot is the optimum time to set the target up for
    a nuke (see definition below.)  The use of an intergalactic communicator
    (CB) is vitally handy for assessing the conditions favorable
    for nuking.

Special Techniques and Definitions:

These techniques have been found to produce better scores than shooting
for lone targets.

Nerd Herding:  If you spot multiple cars equipped with radar detector, you
    can herd them into a cluster by zapping them each time one tries to pass
    another.

Wolf Pack:  Played by two or more cars in convoy, communicating on an
    obscure non-CB frequency:  Wingman trails leader by about 1/2 mile, spots
    targets and gives early warning to leader.  Leader fires rearward, hitting
    the marks with a strong head-on signal.  Wingman confirms hits.  Leader and
    wingman try to see how many marks they can herd between them.

Left Lane Bandit Blasting:  This dual purpose technique yields good scores
    and frequently busts up Left Lane Bandit clumps.  This is the one
    instance where  clearance rules are relaxed.    This is used
    when the trolling vehicle is stuck behind a bunch of left-lane-bandits
    proceeding side by side with geriatrics (real or premature) in the
    more right lanes.  If there are more than 3 or 4 cars in the clump,
    odds are one vehicle will have a radar detector and will be driven
    by a target who will respond to the troll even when going below the
    speed limit.  Also known as the Paranoid Factor.  Technique is
    to lift throttle (to give you some room) and firing into the
    crowd.  The inherent entropy introduced by the tractor beam
    will tend to scatter the cars so that you can find a way through the
    mess.  You bust a left lane bandit and score at the same time.
    Also known as "Bumper Cars."

Yuppy Puppy: Canine Critters, generally of a large/exotic/expensive breed
    and always an utterly stupid, undisciplined monster.

Yuppy Larvae:  Similar to Yuppy Puppy except of human origin.  Generally
    the result of her taking something seriously he poked at her in fun.
    Also known, depending on context and age,  as "accident", Yard Ape,
    Busted Rubber, Curtain Climber or Precious.  Personality characteristics
    are almost identical to the Yuppy Puppy except that the Larvae is
    louder and is generally allowed in restaurants and movie theaters
    where they do maximum damage.


Scoring:

Scoring is done in accordance with the following table.  This table recognizes
the added value of multiple hits on a given target and on the difficulty
inherent in getting multiple responses from one hit.

The easiest way to score is to get one of those handheld counting "clickers"
like are used by the gate keepers at the ballpark to count fans.  This
is that chrome golf-ball sized orb that contains a mechanical counter and
a pushbutton that increments the count.  Available from your local office
supply store for a nominal price.  Scores can be kept in a log book
for submittal to the management.   Winners (and L00zers) will be
recognized accordingly.


Basic scoring: What the target does:  Select all that apply and add.

Looks about, slows down                   = 1 point
Tail lights                               = 2 point
Hard braking                              = 3 points
Lane change                               = 3 points
Hides his radar detector                  = 4 points
Blue smoke from tires                     = 5 points
Hits an exit                              = 10 points
Turns off detector                        = 10 points.
Pulls over and fakes car trouble          = 12 points
Hits median and goes the other way        = 15 points


Bonus Adders:  Add these bonus points to whatever you got above:

Fuzzy dice                                 + 1 point
Suction Cup Garfield (or other critter)    + 1 point
Was already below the speed limit          + 2 points
Cellphone in use                           + 2 points
Radar detector has cord draped across dash + 2 points
Eating/drinking interrupted                + 2 points
    "   "   "       , stuff spilled        + 4 points
Audio hit *                                + 3 points
Yuppy puppy  on board                      + 3 points
Yuppy larvae on board  (see definitions)   + 3 points
""  "" "" with sign announcing same        + 5 points
Slapping of yuppy larvae interrupted       + 4 points
Vanity tag                                 + 5 points
CB                                         ** see below
Makeup being applied                       + 6 points
Head to head hit (opposite direction)      + 8 points
Bimbo (male or female)                     + 10 points
Sexual act interrupted                     + 15 points
Off-duty cop                               + 20 points
Fully dressed police cruiser               + 30 points
Confirmed lawyer                           + 40 points
Lawyer w/vanity tag that says "Tort"       + 50 points

*   Audio hit - when you're close enough to hear the target's detector
    alarming.
**  CB radio.  Take 5 points for initial report of your hit on CB radio
    and 5 points for each 10 minutes it's talked about.

Just all 'em all up and then do the multiplier.


Multipliers:  Take all that apply.

Each subsequent hit on a target            X (count of hits on that target)
Yuppy scum                                 X 2
BMW/Benz/Porche/Jap clone thereof          X 3
Motorcycle                                 X 5  (reflects rarity)
Yuppy puppy bus (minivan)                  X 4
Lo-riders, similar vehicles                X 3
Junker                                     X 2
Nuke *                                     X 10

* "Nuke" is the term used when the target is baited into busting a
  real radar trap.  Ticket must be issued to count.

Penalty box:  Subtract these points:

Target shoots back with single digit of the hand      - 2 points
                        with radar                    - 5 points
                        with gun                      - 10 points
Caught for speeding while trolling                    - 10 points
Caught for more serious infraction while trolling     - 15 points
Operating without a radio license                     - 20 points
Getting trolled by another competitor *               - 20 points
Getting caught by the Phuzz without license           - 25 points
Getting caught by Uncle Charlie without license       - 30 points
Having trolling implement confiscated                 - 40 pts + disqual.
Caught for speeding by RADAR while trolling           - 50 points

*  Defined as responding as a target to another competitor's tractor beam.

OK guys, let the Games Begin!

Sincerely,

jgd@dixie.com         (Comendante of the Riders of the Purple Phase Chapter)
reid@ucs.indiana.edu
Founders and Charter Members of the TFT Guild

                            ---
--
John De Armond, WD4OQC        |  To teach is to learn twice.
Rapid Deployment System, Inc. |
Marietta, Ga                  |  Gun control is hitting the shootoff chickens
jgd@dixie.com                 |
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.

A few comments.


Saw the Miller Genuine Draft 500 over the weekend.  

The entire weekend was kind of fun.  On Friday, the track was fogged in,
so they really didn't run much of anything.   My brother and I spent
time in the pits, and watched some of the ARCA cars preparing.

Richie Petty, Richard's nephew, and his crew were clowning around, and
that was pretty funny.

Went up to the Grandstand to eat lunch (only one item on the menu
on Friday -- hot dogs) so we're sitting there in the lower stands,
and about a section away was a group of people I'd term "the other
half".  

Well, there were like five guys, and this one sort of overweight girl
who was wearing a weird kind of shirt.  It was solid in the front where
her titles were, but the rest was made of up strings.  I guess you'd
see something like that in Easy Rider.

Well, they decided to pose for a group photo, and one of the guys took
the camera, and ran up a few rows.  They posed, and all of a sudden,
she pulls up her shirt.   I thought it was pretty funny, because as the
good ol' boy in front of me said, her stomach stuck out farther than
her _____.

So, a bunch of guys way up start yelling "Show us your....", and she
kept obliging.  I was laughing so hard I could barely eat my hot dog....



Saturday was qualifying and the ARCA and Sportsman races.  Got a chance
to see the Winston Cup drivers up close.   Dave Marcis still drives
in wing-tip shoes.   (I know Dave's mother-in-law, or at least his
mother-in-law from 19 years ago.)

Richard Petty is without a doubt the King, and Rusty Wallace is extremely
personable.   Dale Earnhardt was looking pretty up despite his run of
bad luck.


Sunday was THE race.  It was pretty boring until Davey Alison crashed about
140 laps in.  Most of the folks in my section were NOT Davey fans, and
they were going wild until they realized just how serious the crash
was.

After that things got exciting..... Darrell Waltrip won by 1.31 seconds
over Harry Gant.   Last 40 laps were great.


I'm going again next year, but I'm gonna have my Dad work on the
Miller salesman to get us some Hot Pit passes....8^)


'SAw

    Whassa stock car????
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

>        <<< Note 39.214 by CELTIK::JACOB "Sun-ripened for Mildness!" >>>
>                 -< REAL MEN go 290 MPH and 1/4 mile in 5 sec >-


Personally, I think that the manliest men of all are the guys on the
Grand Prix Motorcylce circuit....8^)

I enjoyed the track at Pocono.  Lotta fun, lotta babes (some SERIOUS
babe-age) and lotta good racin'....


'Saw

    Sounds like fun 'Saw,
    I caught a replay of Allison's crash and it looked frightening.
    I take it he only suffered "minor injuries"
    
    And we'll have ta ask our ex-Pa.,sometime-central Pa road warrior
    Waugamain ta comment on the ahem, "central Pa characteristics"
    in his own inimitable way. Seems he waxed eloquent during our
    trip to Penn St lasted year 'bout a coupla peculiar-lookin'
    EeeeeeEeeee-resemblin' Nittany dudes!!
    
    Mucho 8^)'s
    MikeL
    

    
    I'll back ya on the GP cycle racing, Saw. The AMA used to run a
    national there years ago, but now their arch rival WERA does. Nothing
    like a tri oval. 
    
    
    I could go there to race, but I would have to get another racing
    license and go through more B.S. so I said screw it. I'll stick with
    what I have now, and maybe get down ther e for the WERA Grand National
    Final.
    
     Who said real men do the 1/4 mile thing ? Boring. the only real skill
    behind that it the Mechanic's, who, get it to last the lentgh of the
    strip before it blows up. 
    
    Road courses are the best and require the most skill. MHO of course.
    
    
    -TH
    

    
    > Seems he waxed eloquent during our
    > trip to Penn St lasted year 'bout a coupla peculiar-lookin'
    > EeeeeeEeeee-resemblin' Nittany dudes!!
      
    No Mike, those guys were right up front about the fact that they were
    from West Virginia.... ;-)
    
    glenn
                             

>    Sounds like fun 'Saw,
>    I caught a replay of Allison's crash and it looked frightening.
>    I take it he only suffered "minor injuries"
    
Again, I think it's testament to the construction of the cars.

The car was demolished, EXCEPT for the roll cage, which was intact
and no doubt saved his life.

I'm not an Allison fan by any stretch of the imagination, but I hate
to see people get hurt.  As far as I know, he had a broken collarbone,
two broken bones in his right arm, and a broken right wrist.

I had heard that the bone above his left eye (the orbit) was broken too,
but I've seen no official reports....


'Saw

>    	You should try some other tracks if you get the chance..Pocono is
>    not one of the better tracks to see a race.

Actually, I enjoyed it.  We had MUCH better seats than last year, and
with my binoculars, I could see 95% of the track.

    
>    	If you ever get down this way..S.C..try Charlotte,Rockingham or
>    Atlanta. for some great racing.

I'd like to.  I'd also like to head over to Tennessee sometime, because
I hear the women there are nice 8^)


I think that next major trip will be to Rusty Wallace's shop in North
Carolina.  If my brother and I do that, then we'll be havin' a get-together
no doubt with BobHunt and dan'l and TTom....

    
>    	Sounds like you had a good time in the mountains(insert___shot!)

Actually, I did...

    
>    There's nothing like some good ole racing gals!  :*)
    
Heh, heh, heh....

Actually, there was this one photographer who was looking MIGHTY fine.
Never did get close enough to talk with her though....


'Saw

>                -< news reports Allison will race this Sunday! >-


I would be guessing that he won't race the entire race, but will probably
start the race to get credit, and then a sub will take over....


Just a guess....


'Saw    

    	Davey will run one to two laps, then Bobby Hillin will drive the
    rest of the race for him.

    	He's(Allison)being released today from the hospital.

    	SAW,

    	Don't just stop at Wallace's shop..do the others as well...they're all
    in the same area.  A must is the Rick Hendrick stables...unbelievable,
    even out back looking like junk are the extra's used in "DOT".  The
    shop is awesome.  Kulwicki's is nice too.

    B.A.
                   

>    	Don't just stop at Wallace's shop..do the others as well...they're all
>    in the same area.  A must is the Rick Hendrick stables...unbelievable,
>    even out back looking like junk are the extra's used in "DOT".  The
>    shop is awesome.  Kulwicki's is nice too.

Heard a story about Hendrick's shop, I think.

Seems this couple were out driving around, and came upon what looked like
a used car lot.  Then the wife spotted (quote) the cars from Days of
Thunder (unquote).

She started taking all kinds of photos until someone came out and asked her
not to take any more pictures, that she was at the Hendrick R&D center...8^)


Had to feel sorry for Jimmy Means.  I mean, I know he's an independent
and all, but his pit crew looked like the Three Stooges on his first
stop Sunday.....


'Saw

>    	Probably a couple of locals helping out...alot of the dependents
>    hire locals real cheap to help them out at races..heck, to some, it's
>    worth it just to get into the pits.

Coulda been.  Gave a whole new meaning to the term "motley crew".


Probably the BEST pit performance I saw during the race was late in the
race when Musgrave came in for fuel.  His gas man did a GREAT job of
getting a whole bunch of fuel in, in about 10 seconds.  

As he came back over the wall, everyone in the pits was high fivin' him....



'Saw

    
    	Musgrave is doing great for a second season driver....looks like
    he'a a lock for the Petty ride, unless Dale get to it first.
    
    	Pits are not as exciting as they use to be with the speed limit
    enforced now. It took some of the aweness out of it, but added safety I
    guess.
    
    B.A.

    
    re .225
    
    'saw,
    
    How come you typed in the words "(quote)" and "(unquote)" instead of
    just doing "?  Do you have a defective keyboard or figgered the people
    into car racing couldn't figger that " meant a quote was coming? 
    
    Brews

>    How come you typed in the words "(quote)" and "(unquote)" instead of
>    just doing "?  Do you have a defective keyboard or figgered the people
>    into car racing couldn't figger that " meant a quote was coming? 
    
Sometimes I use " to indicate an expression or slang word or phrase.
Because I use it for a couple of different purposes, I wanted to be
sure there was no ambiguity in what I wrote.....

I saw something similar on the news last night, where they had a printed
statement from some spokesman, and for emphasis, the newscaster added
"and this is a direct quote" before he read it....


hth,
'Saw

    re.228
    
    
     One of the reasons of enforced speed limits in the pits, is because of
    insurance. The potential for injury in the pits and on pit lane is
    extremely high, and the only way to lower this is to enforce a speed
    limit.
    
    Insurance comanies rule at the racetrack, and no one like to have the
    premiums go up.
    
    I was tagged with a $50 dollar fine last month at NHIS. This because I
    was doing 30 mph going through the tunnel into the infield and the
    Track Manager was behind me in his truck. Speed limit is 15 MPH at all
    times in the pits. 
    
    I'm not known for doing wheelies in the pits or speeding, but I just
    happened to get caught. Boy, was I pissed, and I knew that Ted (track
    GM) was just flexing his muscle and enforcing the rules. An appeal to
    the race referee and race director was to no avail, and I had to pay
    up or forfiet my right to race. Pissed,  me, Knaw....
    
    The funny thing was, when I went to pay up the GM told me to come back
    later, I came back and he said he was busy. I tried to get ahold of the
    ref and race director and they refered me back to the track GM. Great,
    could'nt get anyone on the radio, and I had a race in 15 minutes after
    wasting an hour trying to get this issue resolved.
    
    
    I said screw it and I'll deal with it later, went to pregrid, and the
    starter starts flipping out about me not talking to the GM, the ref or
    the Director. I said "swell" They could'nt have screwed this up anymore
    if they tried and I pleaded my case to the starter, and she said see
    them after the race.
    
    Went out, raced, passed for the 5th spot on the last lap, and finished. 
    Came into the pits (15MPH) and I had the 3 stooges waiting for me at
    pit in/out.  
    
    
    Looked like I was in for a meeting with the minds, and I met them in
    the press center after I unsuited. Got my pee-pee whacked and let the
    Track GM vent his frustration out on me for a good 10 minutes. When
    that was done, I met with the Ref and race director, who, by this time
    were cracking up after the GM left. Now I was totally confused, because
    here I was thinking I was going to get my racing license bounced and
    these two are laughing. The Ref said, "Don't worry Mike, Ted (GM) is
    premenstrel at the moment, he gets like that." "Oh, and another thing,
    we will raffel off all the money we collect from the rider fines at the
    Racers banquet in January".   "Maybe you can win it back?"
    
    
    What a weekend......
    
    
    -TH
                                  
    
     

>     One of the reasons of enforced speed limits in the pits, is because of
>    insurance. The potential for injury in the pits and on pit lane is
>    extremely high, and the only way to lower this is to enforce a speed
>    limit.
    
The specific reason that I heard for NASCAR was because one of Bill
Elliot's pit crew was killed in a pit lane accident in 1990, when
he got crunched between Elliots car and another that was coming in
too fast.

'Saw

    Hence Fatality, insurance dudes don't like fatalities. Means they have
    to pay someone.
    
    

>    Hence Fatality, insurance dudes don't like fatalities. Means they have
>    to pay someone.


Oh, no doubt.

But probably also to keep the paying customers from seeing other pit lane
workers from being squished like bugs...


'Saw    
    

    The pits are the most dangerous section of any course (MHO), traffic
    is erratic, speeds can get crazy, and people (innocent ones0 usually
    get hurt.
    
    
    Last week at the races, this guy fell in turn 12 (Last turn before the
    straight at Loudon) and his bike went up the hot pit lane unpiloted.
    Scary.
    
    He was in the middle of the line and people were diving out of the way.
    I don't like to spend to much time on hot pit road, mainly because of
    Amatuers doing stupid things. This , again, usually leads to and
    injury, or near injury. I instruct the support team that comes with me
    to stay off pit row unless absolutly neccisary.
    
    
    During endurance races that I participate in, it gets downright hairy.
    The action in the pits is non stop, and the place is buzzing with
    excitement.
    
    Guys come into the entrance of pit row doing ~60 mph and if thier pit
    is down the end, they are doing well over 100  to get there. Time is
    critical, asnd these guys are'nt stopping for anything.
    
    
    No one likes injuries in any form of motorsport, it's bad for everyone.
    The less injuries the better, but unfortunately its part of the sport.
    
    
    -TH

I hear ya.


In a sense I think it's good that NASCAR has limited pit speeds.  I also
like that way that only the cars on the lead lap can pit first under
yellow.  Keeps the congestion down.


I love to watch those NASCAR crews work.  It really is something.


I think I'd like to be a gas man.  That's a manly thing to do in 
a pit crew, and I know if I were a tire changer I'd screw up!


8^)

    Heard last night that the wife of some driver killed last year (sorry,
    don't know who he was or on which track he was killed) is suing NASCAR
    and the track because the wall he crashed into was too close to the
    track.  She's suing for $4+ million.
    
    Sorry, lady, but I think that's the risks you take.  Wonder if she
    donated all his previous winnings from such a terrible organization.  
    
    	--dan'l

    
    
    Tracks get sued, or tried to get sued all the time, mostly resulting
    from fatalaties (Re.-1). I have to sign waiver after waiver after
    waiver, just to race. I know that any disclaimer can be had by a good
    barister, but when doing competative motorsports, unlike any other form
    of sport the risk of *DEATH*, or *crippling injury* is there everytime
    one steps onto the track.
    
    
    It's a risk that ever racer in the world faces, and I live with it.
    Most people think that they are to good to buy it, or get hurt, then,
    whammo. Their buddy gets banged up and will never walk right again, and
    it hits close to home.  In roadracing, they say it's not if you get
    hurt, but when.
    
    Our old sacntioning body for M/C roadracing here in the east lost it's
    insurance back around 85,86. This cause the local club to fold, all
    because of lawsuits and increased insurance premiums. Just to defned
    against a lawsuit is major bucks, and we, the racers had to pay, and
    pay until it was'nt affordable anymore.
    
    
    This lady is nuts to even think that she will get any money, and I hope
    she does'nt. Her S/O was a racer and died what he loved doing (I
    assume) and she deserves a good slap for trying to pilfer the
    sanctioning bodies for cash, because her loved one is dead. TFB. 
    
    
     Some guys crashed 3 years ago at Bridghamton raceway in L.I. N.Y.  The
    track will cover certain amounts of medical, because they have to. (In
    thier insurance policy) and so will the sanctioning body. Even if you
    race without heath insurance (As some fools do) you should be covered
    somewhat and hopefully come out O.K. Anyway, these 2 jerk had a high
    speed getoff and broke a couple of bones, nothing major. Well they tied
    to sue the track and sanctioning body because the track was bumpy and
    rough, now get this, causing them to crash. Once again, premiums go up
    and I have to pay in increased entry fees.  Unreal.
    
    Finnally the race director had a riders meeting (mandatory every race
    weekend) and told everyone involved that if you plan on racing, plan on
    getting hurt, but don't plan on trying to weasel money out of us in the
    form of a lawsuit if you get banged up. You don't like it ? go race
    someplace else, because we don't need you. I did'nt blame him one bit.
    
    
    I hate to see people get hurt while racing, but it's  a part of the
    game.
    
    -TH

I wonder if that's JD McDuffy's family?

He crashed at Watkins Glen, and skidded quite a distance to get to the
wall.....


'Saw

	I read today in the telegram and gazette that there is a proposal
to built a drag strip in the Gardner, Ashburnham area. The motor sports 
park would be built off of 140 and raymond st. I for one would like to see 
it happen, does anyone have anymore info or thoughts on the subject?

		doug  

       The dragstrip debate has been raginf for a few months now. The
    Fitchburg/Leominster paper has been carrying a couple stories a week
    about it.
                                       Denny

    
    	YES, YES, YES,!!!!  FORD WIN THE 1992 NASCAR MANUFACTURER'S 
    	CHAMPIONSHIP!
    
    	It's about time...I've waited a lonf time for this...top 4 cars in
    the points standings as well!
    
    Go Ford's!
    
    B.A.
    

    
    NHIS just landed a NASCAR race tentative for 11-Jul-93.
    
    
    

    
    	It's not tentative..it's a definte! July 11,  Good going guys! 
    Have a ball up there.
    
    B.A.

    
    So far NHIS has sought out and recieved just about every major type of
    motorsport.
    
    They have SCCA, bush nationals, winston cup, NASCAR, AMA Superbike, and
    Indy. Nice job by the NHIS folk and the Bare family.
    
    
    -TH

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+TM                                                   ----------- 
|d|i|g|i|t|a|l|                   Worldwide News                      LIVE WIRE
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+                                                     ----------- 

                  Rahal/Hogan Indy race car team with Digital 
                    wins 1992 Cart/Indy series championship 

  The Rahal/Hogan Team Miller IndyCar racing team won the 1992 CART/Indy series
  championship with Digital's hardware and software.  The championship was 
  secured after the Rahal/Hogan team came in third place at the Toyota Monterey 
  Grand Prix at the Laguna Seca Raceway in Monterey, California, held on 
  Oct. 18.  Bobby Rahal ended the season with 196 points, 4 points ahead of 
  Michael Andretti, making this one of the closest Indy cup finals.  Rahal is 
  the first rookie owner to win a CART/Indy championship. 

  The Rahal/Hogan team winning strategy was based both on race and car status 
  information continuously monitored on Digital computers by the Rahal/Hogan 
  pit crew and on the crew's ability to relay that information in real time to 
  Rahal, team driver and co-owner.

  This strategy was put to the test dramatically two weeks ago at the Bosch 
  Spark Plug Grand Prix at the Pennsylvania International Raceway in Nazareth 
  Township, Pennsylvania.  While Michael Andretti, the race leader, chose to 
  enter the pits for one last refueling stop, the Rahal/Hogan pit team using 
  Digital's technology, advised Rahal to stay on the track.  The result:  
  Rahal's third win on a 1-mile oval.

  Digital's sponsorship during the 1992 season has helped Rahal/Hogan to use 
  the best mix of people, business, and technology solutions needed to integrate
  their racing enterprise.  As systems integrator, Digital was able to provide:

     o  hardware and software; 
     o  consulting, maintenance, and network services;              
     o  platform, network, and utility products; 
     o  and applications to make the most of the                    
        team's multivendor information systems.

  IndyCar technology includes extensive use of wind tunnels for aerodynamic 
  development, space-age composites for chassis strength, and on-board 
  electronics for real-time engine management and monitoring.  The 
  concept-to-production cycle for race cars is typically four to six months.  
  Advanced information technology can cut development time through use of a CAD 
  system, allowing the team's engineers to spend more time testing the car in 
  computer simulated race conditions.

  Digital performed a "Business Needs Analysis" and provided equipment for the 
  Indianapolis-based Rahal/Hogan team.  The study, a standard Digital offering, 
  helped to tie the enterprise's information needs to its business objectives. 

  Digital provided the Rahal/Hogan team with Digital DECpc 425 CAD PCs for 
  engineering, DECpc 325 PC for office automation, and DECpc 320p Notebook PCs, 
  plus Digital laser, dot matrix, and color printers and a DECpc color monitor. 
  In addition, a DECstation 3100, running under the ULTRIX operating system, is 
  being used for computer-aided design.

  The team is using the Notebook PCs in both engineering and on-track 
  activities, particularly in the pits for real-time data collection as well as 
  analysis of information transmitted by telemetry from the race car's engine 
  management on-board computer. 

Miller Genuine Draft was also a sponsor, Mac, which is something that
you have in common with Rahal......


'Saw

    Good one `Saw...  

>                 -< Miller,  A Headache In Every Can !!  ;^) >-
>
>    Good one `Saw...  


I like Miller Genuine Draft....


And I was referring to Mac because until recently, MGD was sponsoring
the Worcestor Rugby Club.


'Saw

    It's a good all around saying for the beer you don't like to drink.
    personally,  Miller does give me a headache...  especially after 10 or
    15 of the mothers !!   ;^)
    
    BG

I don't believe that I've told this story in here before.....


I like Miller Genuine Draft, but I'm not overly fond of Miller High Life.

When my brother and I were at the Pocono Raceway in July, we were watching
the ARCA race on Saturday.  It was hot, and I asked him if he wanted a
beer.  He said yes.

We were sitting way up in the grandstand, and seeing as I didn't want to
have to go back down for more beers later, I looked around and saw
some guys drinking from Big Miller Cans.  I thought it was a pint.
I said to my bro, "Hey, how bout I get us a couple of those big stylers?"
He says "Okay".


So I go down to the refreshment stand.  Turns out what I thought was a 
16oz beer was actually a QUART.   So, I grab two, head up to my
bro, carrying a half gallon of beer.

I give him his and say, we can have lunch later, right?  Right, he says.

Well, after a quart of beer (which got warm before I was finished),
I didn't feel like lunch.  

We still laugh about the day we each had a quart of beer for lunch....


'Saw

    
     That was quite a story there, `Saw. It had everything. Pathos when you
    found you had no beer. Adventure when you went in search of it. Pure
    joy when you found not just beer but QUARTS of beer. Yes, it was quite 
    a story. I laughed. I cried. It became a part of me.

>     That was quite a story there, `Saw. It had everything. Pathos when you
>    found you had no beer. Adventure when you went in search of it. Pure
>    joy when you found not just beer but QUARTS of beer. Yes, it was quite 
>    a story. I laughed. I cried. It became a part of me.


Pulitzer material for sure, Tommy.  I could feel it as the keystrokes
were leaving my fingers.

I probably should have put a little more emphasis on the setting -- two
normal guys amonst a whole host of Inbred Jeds, but I figured I'd let that
be filled in by imaginiation.....


8^)

Answer me this:

Miller Genuine Draft is supposedly draft beer taste in a can 
right?

Our watering hole for post softball is the Stable in Nashua. They 
serve Miller Genuine Draft on draft. They also serve Miller on 
draft.

What the hail is the difference?

I'll take the John Courage or the Bass thank you.

daryll

    Miller is Miller...  Not much more to add than that
    
    BG

I don't know about all the advertising hype.

I drink Miller Genuine Draft because it tastes different to me than
regular Miller High Life.


If I'm drinking beer, and know that I'll be drinking a lot of beer,
I'll drink MGD.  

If I'm only having a couple, or beers with meals type of thing, I opt
for Samuel Adams, Newky Broon, or other stuff like that.....


'Saw

    
    If Digital was a sponsor of Rahals car, how come this is the first I
    have heard of it ?
    
    I don't recall any Digital Logo's on the car, or even a mention of DEC
    as part of development. 
    
    Wondering....
    
    -TH

    good question...  come to think of it neither did I !!
    
    BG

    >I don't recall any Digital Logo's on the car, or even a mention of DEC
    >as part of development. 
    
The car (probobly a backup actually) was at DECWORLD and does have a Digital 
logo on it, in a couple places - on the nose and maybe just behind the 
cockpit.  It's small, but it's there (I have pictures to prove it! ;^)).  
Digital has had a tent at many of his races for customer receptions at which 
Rahal made appearances throughout the season.  I don't think they had a problem 
getting customers there, in fact I think they often were overbooked.

Scott

    Where's the BIG logo????
    
    On the undercarriage fer when it goes "belly-up"?????
    
    
    Inquiring minds and all that SLOF
    
    JaKe
    

Oh yeah, Rahal himself (not just hos car) as at DECWORLD as well....

Scott

     Jake...  Why so pesimistic ???   We're gonna be just fine !!
    A come back is just around the corner...
    
    BG  (I'm a Packer fan  ;^))
    

    
    There must have been something in the sponsorship contract with MGD and
    Rahal. When you see the car you see Miller, nothing more nothing less.
    DEC ? sorry, you get the 3"x5" logo on the underside of the airfoil.
    
    Thanks for the H/W and S/W, services and application support. See-ya.
    

    I get to spend a day with Rahal at a DEC event in the near future,
    I was also surprised to hear that we sponsored a car.
    
    Kinda cool, my Fiance's dad is a big race fan.

A lot of how big the logo is does depend on the sponsorship.

If you look at a Winston Cup car, mostly what you see is the HUGE
main sponsor logo (like Rusty Wallace's MGD).    They actually have
instructions on where to place the other stickers, FROM NASCAR.
Other stickers are a certain size.


I would assume the same is the case with Rahal's car.  Since MGD has
probably sunk far more money than our extremely cost conscious company
would ever dream of putting into a venture such as this, they dictate
where stuff goes.  I'd be willing to bet that CART also has instructions
as to where the other stickers go.

BTW, I don't know how it works it CART, with with NASCAR, if you see
a car at a show like that, chances are that it was a car that was
wrecked, rebuilt, and then never ran quite right.   

(One of the guys I lift with works for a Ford Dealer, and they recently
had the Citgo Winston Cup car -- a Thunderbird -- at their dealership.
That was the case with that car.....)


'Saw

    
    My point is from a sponsorship view, why there was'nt any more
    exposure. That's the whole idea behind sponsorship. Your name is
    associated with a team that is in front of camera's and crowds. Seems
    that noone in here (myself included) even new about it until some saw
    him at DECworld. Quite lame.  This guy one a championshiip in one of
    the most visable race series in the world with Digital as a sponsor,
    yet who knows  ? Absolutly noone.
    
    Quite lame if you ask me, the sponsors for my race team get PLENTY of
    exposure.
    
    -TH

>    My point is from a sponsorship view, why there was'nt any more
>    exposure. That's the whole idea behind sponsorship. Your name is
>    associated with a team that is in front of camera's and crowds. Seems
>    that noone in here (myself included) even new about it until some saw
>    him at DECworld. Quite lame.  This guy one a championshiip in one of
>    the most visable race series in the world with Digital as a sponsor,
>    yet who knows  ? Absolutly noone.

Yabbut, who does it?

Rahal doesn't actively shill MGD.  MGD will make a commercial touting
their product and inculde Rahal.   

You do see the drivers in NASCAR touting their sponsors, like
when someone crashes, and they say "Oh, well the Country Time Lemonade
Pontiac sure held together until Ernie Irvan plowed me".

But for the most part, it's the sponsor themselves tooting their own
horn, whether the driver is included (Penzoil commercials) or not.


So, what's the problem here?  Try Digital figuring that those totally
lame ads of workstations sitting in a board room on a chair would
actually sell anything.

If they want exposure, they should come up with a commercial to advertise
PCs (our hottest stuff now) and show lots of clips of Rahal running, 
stating that our computers helped his race effort.   

(That way, when I go to the gym I don't have all sorts of people telling
me how stupid our ads are.....)


'Saw

    
    Bingo, Thats the point I was trying to reach. Sposorship = Advertising,
    for less $'s and more exposure. 
    
    Your dead right about PC's and matching it with Rahal's team, yet I'll
    only hear about it from someone who saw him at DECworld, when the whole
    world should know about Dec products and a wining race  team.
    
    Perception is everything.
    
    
    Later
    
    -TH

>    Bingo, Thats the point I was trying to reach. Sposorship = Advertising,
>    for less $'s and more exposure. 

Right.  What I'm saying is that it's not Rahal's responsibility to be
touting us, we should be blowing our own horn, saying "Hey, we contributed
to a championship racing team!"


Problem is we won't.  Digital's perception of their customers has always
been that of a high-level exec who snaps his fingers and his hordes of
worker bees rush out to buy our products.    We all know that a high-level
exec would NEVER be caught dead looking at autoracing, right?


We'd rather turn out this drivel with workstations sitting in saunas,
talking to thin air.


    
>    Your dead right about PC's and matching it with Rahal's team, yet I'll
>    only hear about it from someone who saw him at DECworld, when the whole
>    world should know about Dec products and a wining race  team.
    
But I'm just a worker bee, and in Digital, unless your a lizard pig dog
boss, you don't count for anything.   Hell, Delta has been taken over
by the Good Feelings People, and any real ideas get lost in the shuffle.



>    Perception is everything.
    
Amen,  NAME recognition also.


Imagine, if you will, a person looking for a PC.  Now, the average person
is probably an average joe, who likes lots of different things.  This
average joe sees that Bobby Rahal, driving that extremely sexy black
and gold Indy Car, took the CART championship this season, and that Digital
computers aided that effort.

The average joe is going to be swayed by that, and will buy the box.

I mean, I could conceive of a commercial right now.


	Scene:  Rahal screaming around [race track where Rahal
		won a race] at 200mph plus.

	[Cut to the garage]

	The crew chief is directing the mechanics working on the car,
	some problem arises.  

	[Cut to the track, a car camera angle this time, from
	 behind Rahal's head]

	[Back to the garage]
	The crew chief goes to the terminal (hell,
	make it a PC), punches some numbers, directs the mechanics
	to make a fix.

	[Cut to footage of Rahal taking the checkered flag]

	[Cut to Rahal saying something like

		With Digital, we win blah blah blah]

	[Cut to Rahal doing the champagne thing with the babes in
	 victory lane]



Now, does that sound better than some stupid workstation sitting in a
suana, or what?




For the former, I'd be glued to my chair.  For the latter, I'd get up
and go to the kitchen.....



'Saw

    'Saw would just be waiting for the shot with the babes :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    >Quite lame if you ask me, the sponsors for my race team get PLENTY of
    >exposure.
    
To be fair, this is a relatively new relationship.  It wasn't too long before 
DECWORLD that it started to take off.  Also, the budget for this program is 
not huge, which I'm sure is directly related to the return that can be gained 
from the investment.  How many resources do you think Digital should through at 
something like this?  That's a very important question in these days of 
downsizing.

Do you know what the goals of this program are?  Do you know how much exposure 
it gets in front of the target customers?  Do you know who the target customers 
are?  Do you know how much customer interest or even revenue has been generated 
by this program?  Labelling it as lame without knowing those answers is IMO 
lame.

Scott

    
    Scott,
    
    It is Lame because nobody has heard of it. No I don't know of the
    specifics of the sponsorship proposal, but in my eye's where is the
    return for sponsorship ? Going to a few trade shows with your car is'nt
    going to cut it. 
    
    Sposorship is advretising for less. Evertime Car X goes around the
    track, the name is right in front of you, on TV, on the airwaves, in
    the color booth. 
    
    There are already tons of Demographic studies for motorsports. What
    type, how many, how much. You name it, it's there. For the 2nd largest
    computor company to be associated with the winning CART team of 1992
    and not even get a mention on TV or a visable sticker on the car is
    LAME. No matter how you cut it. Just a little Digital sticker on the
    side of his helmet in view of the camera's is all it takes. Everytime
    you go around the start finish line and go to a cockpit shot, Boom,
    Digitals name is right there.  
     
    
      If your not going to pay to have your name displayed, it's pointless
    to give support for no return on the services you offered.
    
    So what if it's a new relationship, Motorsports have always revolved
    around the almighty buck, and sposoring race teams has been the same
    since the 50's except with much larger bugets nowadays.
    
    
    I'm not saying that Dec should throw tons of resources at this product,
    but get your name out front if you do.
    
    
    --TH

>Do you know what the goals of this program are?  Do you know how much exposure 
>it gets in front of the target customers?  Do you know who the target customers 
>are?  Do you know how much customer interest or even revenue has been generated 
>by this program?  Labelling it as lame without knowing those answers is IMO 
>lame.


The goal of the problem should OBVIOUSLY be to make money.  I'm sure it
doesn't exist to blow sunshine up Bobby Rahal's wazoo.

How much exposure?  OBVIOUSLY not enough.  Or is it another one of those
deals where DEC breaks its arm patting itself on the back by going after
some obsure little market niche and thinkin' it's going to help pull us
out of this final plunger to the Great Abyssal Plain?


I don't know who the target customers are.  But whoever they are, we're
missing a tremendous opportunity to hit far more than whoever is targeted.


It is LAME.  When you are sitting on a gold mine like this, not taking 
FULL advantage of it is lame.  Not milking it for everything it is worth
is lame.


IBM does "You Make The Call" on NFL football games.  What is there target
market?  Every man, woman and child who is watching that broadcast.  Why?
NAME RECOGNITION.

If we're doing so well with this sales and marketing stuff, why is everyone
else dusting our tushes?




Digital has the same opportunity with this that IBM does on NFL football.
If they spent some money on some decent ads (not that really stupid
crap with the workstations) then they might start making some money....

Hell, it's worth a try.  Doing it the other way hasn't worked......




'Saw

    
    >It is Lame because nobody has heard of it. No I don't know of the
    >specifics of the sponsorship proposal, but in my eye's where is the
    >return for sponsorship ? Going to a few trade shows with your car is'nt
    >going to cut it. 
    
Nobody??  That's not very accurate, can't even say "nobody in this notesfile."  

    >There are already tons of Demographic studies for motorsports. What
    >type, how many, how much. You name it, it's there. For the 2nd largest
    >computor company to be associated with the winning CART team of 1992
    >and not even get a mention on TV or a visable sticker on the car is
    >LAME. No matter how you cut it. Just a little Digital sticker on the
    >side of his helmet in view of the camera's is all it takes. Everytime
    >you go around the start finish line and go to a cockpit shot, Boom,
    >Digitals name is right there.  

The car I saw has a |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| sticker in at least 3 places, one on the 
nose and one on each side behind the cockpit.  He also has a digital patch on 
his driving suit.  Don't know about the helmet.  The fact that they don't use 
this program to leverage possible TV ads is not this program's fault, it's a 
digital corporate issue.

    >So what if it's a new relationship, Motorsports have always revolved
    >around the almighty buck, and sposoring race teams has been the same
    >since the 50's except with much larger bugets nowadays.
    
I think (and this is my opinion only) this sponsoship differs from say Miller's 
sponsoship because Digital doesn't just pay to have the name there.  Digital 
works with the team to win races, and to understand how you have to talk with 
the people who do it.  This is one reason why Digital hosts customers at the 
races (which as I understand it is the focus of the program).  I don't think 
you'll see Rahal tossing back Genuine Drafts during a race during the course 
of a race and Miller biggest payoff is most likely from just having the name 
out front.  The important thing Rahal get from Miller is money.  Digital's 
payoff is in having customers see what Digital can do, and I Rahal gets the 
expertise to help him win (not just a bucket of money).
    
Scott

    
    In the last year or so groups within DEC have been allowed to do some
    of their own advertising. Apparently those groups have done a fairly
    good job. The corporate wide ads are a whole different story.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

>The car I saw has a |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| sticker in at least 3 places, one on the 
>nose and one on each side behind the cockpit.  He also has a digital patch on 
>his driving suit.  Don't know about the helmet.  The fact that they don't use 
>this program to leverage possible TV ads is not this program's fault, it's a 
>digital corporate issue.


In a sense it should be partially their fault.  If I, a lowly software
engineer, can think of it, surely someone in the program can think of
it, and pass it on.  I mean, this company slings great propaganda about
being profitable and all, why not take advantage of some of this GREAT
opporunity.   Hell, it's the closest DEC will ever get to being champion
at anything 8^)


>I think (and this is my opinion only) this sponsoship differs from say Miller's 
>sponsoship because Digital doesn't just pay to have the name there.  Digital 
>works with the team to win races, and to understand how you have to talk with 
>the people who do it.  This is one reason why Digital hosts customers at the 
>races (which as I understand it is the focus of the program).  I don't think 
>you'll see Rahal tossing back Genuine Drafts during a race during the course 
>of a race and Miller biggest payoff is most likely from just having the name 
>out front.  The important thing Rahal get from Miller is money.  Digital's 
>payoff is in having customers see what Digital can do, and I Rahal gets the 
>expertise to help him win (not just a bucket of money).
    
In a sense, it is different. 

Miller has the name there, and for them, NAME RECOGNITION is everything.
They can parley the fact that it is there into many different TV ads,
and the fact that Rahal won the Championship is a bonus....


Digital has not yet realized that you don't have to SELL something with
every ad, but that name recongition is highly important.

I forget who said it, but someone for the Great Pacific Nor'west pointed out
that out there, folks think Digital is some little firm out there.
That's pretty poor.


If Digital put out an ad as hokey as the one I outline a few replies
ago, they'd be far ahead of where they are now.



SURE, use the program to take customers to the races.  Not a bad idea at
all.  However, if you milk a cow and leave three udders full, you're kind
of screwing up, no?

Why not parlay the sponsorhip into a series of ads which show that we put
the SAME computing power into our PCs as we have in the minis which
Rahal's team used.

The possibilities are endless.  It's too bad that no one up above has
the smarts to figure it out......



'Saw

    
    Scott, 
    
    Your ignorance to MS is showing. Miller GD and Digital have the same
    idea going inot sponsoring a race car. Get the most out of it that you
    can. Personally I have never seen a DEC logo on a CART car, and I look
    all the time at sponsorship logo's to see who gets what. (Having my own
    race team, I am always searching for that crazy sponsorship
    opportunity and look for off the wall names.)  Maybe I did'nt look hard
    enough.
    
    
    The main objective for the team is to win races, you are right however,
    some sponsors just want name recognition. Look at the King, He has had
    STP for years and has'nt been competative for decades. Petty is still
    treated with a hugh amount of respect even if he is in 27th place at
    Talladega. The camera's are still on him and the sponsors now that. 
    
    Rahal's team and goal is to win. For them to do that they need the most
    money from a sponsor. F1 cars are'nt cheap and they take major bucks to
    support for a full season of racing, and for them to get sponsorship
    they need some type of results to sell to MGD. MGD is not going to give
    that kind of cash to an unproven commodity, and hope that they do well.
    Results speak for hemselves and Rahal had them, thus a major
    sponsorship agreement is reached.
    
    
    Of course the guys that donated the Dec stuff want to win, that the
    main focus of any motorsport team.   Taking people to CART races and
    having some association with a team via donating some H/W, s/W and
    services, saying that's my team and I sponsor it , is all fine and
    dandy to impress your local executive friends, but what about world
    perception ? CArt and F1 represent the latest in technology's and we
    helped put a guy in a winners circle for the 92 season, and I find out
    about it in the Sports notesfile. Not from watching ESPN, not from
    Watching NESN, or TNN, not from some ad in PC week, or Digital news,
    you get the idea.
    
    With our products representing the latest technology, helping win the
    one of the toughest series in auto racing, you bet I would be letting
    the world know about it. Period. 
    
    Mike

Mike, I've got a photo of the car with the Digital logos somewhere.  If I can 
find it I'll send it to ya just so you don't think I'm making it up.

Scott

>    Running 'Saw's TV campaign would entail much more $ than what was spent
>    to sponsor Rahal.


First rule learned in economics in high school:

	It takes money to make money.


Do you think IBM says "Well, running 'You Make The Call' would cost
way too much money?


Also, if the goal is just to sponsor the guy, and work with one little
market niche (oh boy, DEC is conquering the world!), then they've done
fine.

But, like TH said, when we start seeing ads in the trade rags, then we
will be doing something.


And here is a sobering thought:

	In 1987, when we won the America's Cup back from the Aussies,
	the syndicate used a MicroVaxII.  That showed up in all the
	trade rags, in DEC advertisements and everything.


	Here we are, five years later, in a sport that has FAR MORE
	wide ranging interest and exposure, and the first we hear
	of it is from LiveWire.



Hell, let the VPs take a 10% pay cut to run some REAL advertising. 
They'd make the money back quick enough.....



'Saw

>Mike, I've got a photo of the car with the Digital logos somewhere.  If I can 
>find it I'll send it to ya just so you don't think I'm making it up.

Scott,

We don't doubt it's on the car.  In fact, I'm glad.  That little something
is better than nothing.


It's just really sad that when a golden opportunity like this comes along,
we let it go by the boards.



Mac,

Re the money spent on my ad idea.  Yep, it would take $$$.  But which
dollars are better spent:


	1. My idea, which hits a lot of people for name recognition
	   with a very sexy ad.

	2. The ad with a work station sitting in a sauna.  I mean,
	   what bozo dreamed THAT one up?



During the period of time when those ads were on, people I ran into
who found out I worked for DEC had one overwhelmingly unanimous
reaction:

	"What a stupid ad.  You guys are kidding, right?"


Somehow, I'd rather be hearing:

	"Wow, that's a great ad with Rahal and the car...."




'Saw

This is a rathole I never meant to go down.  My point was that the one person 
who runs the sponsorship program (yes, it's a one-person show right now) does a 
good job with it (the program was called lame).

Overall, I wholeheartedly agree that Digital has a totally f*#%ed up strategy 
(if there even is one) when is come to advertising and leveraging such programs
as this one on a large scale.

Can I buy ya a beer and call it even??  8^)

Scott

>This is a rathole I never meant to go down.  My point was that the one person 
>who runs the sponsorship program (yes, it's a one-person show right now) does a 
>good job with it (the program was called lame).

No gripe with this, and agree on the rathole.


>Overall, I wholeheartedly agree that Digital has a totally f*#%ed up strategy 
>(if there even is one) when is come to advertising and leveraging such programs
>as this one on a large scale.

Definitely no gripe on this.


>Can I buy ya a beer and call it even??  8^)


Only if you urge the one person who runs the program to suggest in a
most vociferous manner, to the powers that be, that this program is a gold
mine being wasted.....8^)

If you do that, then I'll buy YOU a beer, and we can start planning the 
TV ads!


8^)


'Saw

    
    Scott, 
    
    I have no doubt about the logo being on the car, I've personnally never
    seen it. I did'nt want it to go down a rathole either, but when I fight
    hard for sponsorship and get turned down it's tough to see sponsorship
    like this that's being given away for almost no exposure. IMO.
    
    WTF for ?  I don't know what the log term goals are for the sponsorship
    of F1 and Cart teams, but when paying for your logo,  (we all know that
    it's not cheap) you wan it EXPOSED to the max. Maybe the program was
    just donated equipment and services to the team for testing and
    evaluation purposes ? If so, then great ! No money really spent, but you
    can be sure other teams will be interested in using our H/W, and S/W.
    
     Cart and F1 teams have been using data aquisition equipment for years,
    mostly custom built stuff using 8 and 16 bit proccessors, which
    monitors throttle, suspension travel, brakes, temp, oil pressure, most
    engine internals, and all driver functions. It's neat to see data
    on a road course that a driver has driven on to see where he lets off
    the gas, how far the car rolls, and when he gets on the gas and up
    through the gears again. Neat stuff. I've mostly seen it for GP bikes
    and the equipment costs alot of moolah, and then you need to pay
    someone to deciper it to the tuner/ chassis man.
    
    Scott, do you know the person involved in the program ? I did'nt mean
    to blindly bash it, but from someone who has a working knowledge of
    seeking some forms of sponsorship it wasa little foggy to me why I
    did'nt know anything about it. (DEc/Rahal)
    
    I would like to know more about plans for 93...
    
    
    
    Later,
    
    
    -TH

    
    >	Here we are, five years later, in a sport that has FAR MORE
    >	wide ranging interest and exposure, and the first we hear
    >	of it is from LiveWire.
    
    I don't know about that.  I think there was much more worldwide exposure 
    to the 1987 America's Cup finals than whatever it was that Bobby Rahal 
    won.  Digital scored a pretty decent coup on sponsorship for the 
    America's cup, although it probably could have been played up even more.
    
    Frankly, I don't see what the big fuss is over this.  Every driver has
    one major sponsor, and a whole lot of minor ones.  Does anyone but the
    most devoted race fans have any idea who the minor sponsors are for 
    the name drivers?  Do these minor sponsors (other than Digital) play up
    their very minor affiliations with a successful driver?  Watch a race
    on television and the senses are saturated by these moving billboards, 
    very few of which make any lasting impact.  The ones that do are for the 
    major sponsors, which are usually for beer and car products.  Those are 
    the advertisers who can sink big bucks into sponsorships and logically 
    reap big bucks from the exposure to millions of beer-swilling car 
    enthusiasts.
    
    glenn
    

OUt here in the great northwest when I tell people I work for Digital they
first of all get a blank look on their faces, they I mention that it is a 
computer company, then they immediately ask if it's as big as microsoft.
 When I tell them that it is 10x as big as microsoft they look at me like I'm
from Mars....
 When DEC was in the business of selling computers to scientific labs we 
could afford to go with the low name recognition factor, no that we are in
the mail order PC (hardware and software) markets and trying to break into 
the PC market in general we NEED higher name recognition from the common
guy on the street....

 THis is a golden opportunity to start on that trend. 

Metz

Going back to name recoginition Hewlett Packard was a heavy participant with
Dennis Conner this year. DIGITAL was on America 3 any news on which boat won. 

How about which company has the best RISC box. 

Jeff

Other sponsors of Winston Cup Cars:  (in addition to the major one)

		Winston
		76 Unocal
		Gatorade
		Busch
		True Value Hardware
		Moroso


This from someone who has a small exposure.  Axe my brother, and he could
probably tell you where the stickers have to be put on the car, and whose
they are....8^)


'Saw

    I have to drive/etc Rahal around next Wednesday, I'll axe where our
    sticker got stuck.
    
    Since I don't know racing, it'll give me somethin' to say.

    
    Ask if he knows why it got stuck where it did...  Ie: money...

    I just don't want one stuck across my month at the end of the day!

>    I just don't want one stuck across my month at the end of the day!


Tell him the Chainsaw says he.  He don't know me from Adam, but he'll get
a kick outta the name.

Better yet, ask him when HE's gonna be on Tim Taylor's Tool Time!


'Saw

VNS TECHNOLOGY WATCH:                           +Mike Taylor, VNS Correspondent+
---------------------                           +Littleton, MA, USA            +

                      Alpha AXP Systems at AUTOFACT '92
                      {DEC press release}

    Under the theme, "Winning Through Teamwork and Technology," the 
    Digital Equipment Corporation exhibit at the AUTOFACT '92 exposition
    today through Thursday at Cobo Hall, Detroit, Michigan features the
    first public showing of Digital's new Alpha AXP workstations and
    servers. The Alpha AXP systems are demonstrating six analysis and
    design applications and four manufacturing applications from major
    cooperating software vendors.

    Digital is also highlighting its sponsorship and technical support of
    the Rahal-Hogan Team, this year's world champions in IndyCar
    competition, with a visit to the Digital booth by driver and owner
    Bobby Rahal on Wednesday at 1:30 p.m. Working together, the Rahal-Hogan
    Team and Digital applied the concept of "Winning Through Teamwork and
    Technology" to help Rahal win the championship. Digital helped
    Rahal-Hogan use the best mix of people, business, and technology
    solutions needed to integrate their racing enterprise. As systems
    integrator, Digital helped tie the enterprise's information needs to
    its business objectives with an extensive offering of hardware,
    software, and consulting expertise.

    "This is perhaps the most powerful combination of technology and total
    solutions for design and manufacturing that Digital has ever brought to
    AUTOFACT," said Dave Copeland, vice president, Manufacturing
    Industries. "Our first Alpha AXP workstations and servers are at the
    very top level of performance for design and analysis, and they are
    just the beginning. The DECfactory solutions embrace every dimension
    of factory operation from standalone applications to integrated
    manufacturing systems. "The design and analysis applications from our
    cooperating CSO (Complementary Solutions Organization) vendors, running
    on Alpha AXP and DECstation platforms, are strictly world-class. And
    our advances in developing comprehensive product data management (PDM)
    systems and STEP-compliant development software will enable engineering
    and manufacturing companies to manage data across the enterprise and
    into the future," Copeland said.

    "We look for Alpha AXP workstations and servers to become universal
    platforms for OpenVMS, UNIX, and Microsoft Windows NT-based
    applications," said Glenn Armbruster, vice president, Automotive and
    General Discrete Industries. "Alpha AXP advantages in performance will
    enable simulation of entire mechanical and electromechanical
    assemblies, resulting in time-to-market and quality improvements. This
    new technology, along with our integration and application development
    software and services, is strong evidence both of our achievements and
    our commitment to future support of manufacturing industries."
    {contributed by David Price}

    Well, I picked Rahal up from the airport, escorted him around his
    lunches, speeches, autograph signings, etc.  Then back to the airport 
    for a big_beer (1 liter Genuine Draft, of course) at the Detroit metro
    "Cheers".

    Only hitch was trying to find the car in the parking lot, oh well...

    Really nice guy.  Best news is that he is a Chicago boy (Glen Elyn) and
    is a Bearz_Fan, (God love him) so we had something to talk about.

    (He thinks Ditka should go, BTW)

    Great day all around.

    They had his number "1" car at the show.  They added a few DEC logos
    to the car for the show, but the main logo is the first white one on
    the nose.  (The rest are yellow)

    From racing central, somewhere in Detroit,

    Chip_GSH_Bach

    
    Cool, Ask him if he like my home base trak, New Hampster international
    Speedway.
    
    
    -TH

    Too late, he's home in Columbus.

    All of this DEC marketing bashing got me thinking of all of those
    comments made throughout this notesfile about how celebrity
    endorsements and other commercials have absolutely no effect on what
    people buy.
    
    So, is advertising important or isn't it?

    I don't think you need a spokesperson, but you need some press.  I'm 
    trying to find sites now to test laser printers.  Think it's easy
    with the HP printer blitz they're doing, along with Canon, and others?
    

Yesterday, in one of the most exciting finishes to a NASCAR season ever,
Alan Kulwicki, in the Hooters Thunderbird, edged out Bill Elliot for his
first even Winston Cup Championship.

Kulwicki had lead more laps than Elliot, and when the lead changed hands
from Kulwicki to Elliot on the final pit stop, it was mathematically 
impossible for Elliot to win with the number of laps left.  If both
finished, Kulwicki would win the Championship.

Kulwicki ended in second place, have led one more lap that Elliot.  That
difference was enough to land him the Championship.

He took a "Polish victory lap" (Kulwicki's word) by going clockwise
around the course.


Davey Allison cracked up early, came back late, and finished 28th.
He needed to finish 5th or better to win the Winston Cup Championship.

Richard Petty, in his final race, crashed early, and his crew scrambled
to get the car ready, and he ran the final lap of the race.  He took a
"farewell" lap, and Doyle Ford, the NASCAR starter, waved the checkered
flag on a career that was most influencial in NASCAR history.


'SAw

                
    I heard the results of that Winston Cup championship, 'Saw, and my
    immediate thought was that such a scoring system seems a little
    arbitrary.  Who cares how many laps you lead; isn't it where you finish
    that really counts?  Not only did Elliot win this race, but he won more
    races in the entire season.  How much weight is given to this "lead
    lap" count?  Hopefully not much and Kulwicki basically won on the 
    strength of higher out-of-first finishes throughout the season...
    
    glenn
      

    Elliott got more points thane Kulwicki for the win, but Kulwicki had
    a lead over Elliott before the last race.
    
    Besides, how can you chastise a guy who 1) owns his own car? and 2)
    has Hooters as a sponsor?  Wish they had more spokeswomen of that
    fine establishment on yesterday.  Did have one nice commercial I saw.
    
    Support those sponsors... visit your local Hooters today!!
    

Believe me, I don't understand the NASCAR scoring system all that well.
It DID make for an exciting end to the season, as it was the closest
championship competition in a long time.

Walt hit the nail on the head.


But also, keep in mind that with other scoring systems (the 6 point system
in Formula I) it is also possible to win a championship without ever
having won a race in the season.   The point system rewards consistency,
which, over the course of the long NASCAR season is difficult.  (Case
in point, Rusty Wallace, who had a great late season, was abyssmal early).

BTW, Elliot's win total would have come in to play in a tie break situation.


Hooters must CERTAINLY be a FINE establishment!


It was nice to watch The King's last race also.....


'SAw