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Conference 7.286::sports_91

Title:CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid
Notice:This file has been archived. New notes to CAM3::SPORTS.
Moderator:CAM3::WAY
Created:Fri Dec 21 1990
Last Modified:Mon Nov 01 1993
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:290
Total number of notes:84103

17.0. "Atlantic Coast Conference Basketball" by CAM::WAY (Futue te ipsum et caballum tuum) Fri Dec 21 1990 15:38

This note is for discussion of Atlantic Coast Conference Basketball.
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17.1ACC stronger than thought!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSComin'on strong in'91Wed Jan 02 1991 18:2015
    re-1,  Football also?
    
    	Five teams from the ACC made there way to a bowl game..Six counting
    Fla.St.  Results...
    
    	4 wins 
        1 loss
        1 tie...
    
    	not too bad for a basketball conference! Everybody I've talked to
    has really been impressed with the ACC this year. Seems like the ACC
    panzie schedule isn't all that bad.
    
    B.A. Go Pack!
    
17.2Finally!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSComin'on strong in'91Fri Jan 04 1991 00:5311
    B-ball results...
    
    	State over C.U. 74-70
    	Wake over Terps 74-62
    
    	The ACC season is underway!
    
    Others...Tech beat Howard 84-77, Ya-hoos beat Marquette 94-88, Duke
    over Boston U. 109-55.
    
    B.A.
17.3UVA draws first bloodSHALOT::HUNTShoeless Joe Belongs In CooperstownSun Jan 06 1991 04:356
    Virginia 81, Duke 64
    
    Wahoos spank 8th-ranked Duke in the conference opener for both squads. 
    A nice 17-point win in front of the home folks.
    
    Bob Hunt
17.4RAVEN1::B_ADAMSComin'on strong in'91Mon Jan 07 1991 17:458
    re-1,
    	Jeff Jones C/O/Y ?  Don't expect the same out-come in Durham...
    
    	Clemson lost to the twerps...
    
    	State lost to Kansas...again!
    
    B.A.
17.5We hates itSHALOT::HUNTBippity Boppity BooSun Jan 13 1991 13:5913
    North Carolina 89, Virginia 86 in double overtime.
    
    Have I mentioned lately how much I hate those guys ???   This game was
    very simple to analyze ... the team with the last shot won it.  King
    Rice hit a prayer in the lane and the Hoos had no time left to respond.
    
    Eric Montross *almost* blew it at the close of regulation.  Carolina
    had the ball out of bounds with :01 second left and he inbounded it
    clear across court and into the stands.   No time elapsed and the ball
    went over to Virginia at the same spot Montross was.   Their
    last-second shot hit iron but didn't drop.
    
    Bob Hunt
17.6SACT41::ROSSLesboscious!Mon Jan 14 1991 11:5943
>    North Carolina 89, Virginia 86 in double overtime.

I saw the last five minutes plus the two overtimes.   You don't have to
guess who I was pulling for.
    
>King Rice hit a prayer in the lane and the Hoos had no time left to respond.

Prayer isn't the word.   Divine Intervention is more like it.   This after Rice
almost single-handedly gave away the game by committing a stupid foul and also
holding the ball out by midcourt while being guarded long enough to get a five
second call.    Did you see how Rice was taunting the crowd after the game?
VERY un-Tar Heel like...  I'm still waiting to hear from ACC Chris as to how
Rice was punished for his assault.   Maybe Dean forced King to get that
haircut?
    
>    Eric Montross *almost* blew it at the close of regulation.

He also tanked two free throws at the end didn't he?   But I think Carolina
got the rebound on the second miss.   I'm still waiting to see this guy live
up to his supposed potential.   Oh yeah, another thing he did was turn his 
back to the ball while running back up court and effectively set a screen
for Crotty to drive to the hoop.    Montross has journeyman center written
all over him.

But you gotta give Dean credit.   Road wins, especially road wins against  the
top teams, are not easy to come by in the ACC.   He seems to have fallen back to
his veterans - Fox, Chilcutt, Davis, Lynch,Rice to carry the team.  Montross
gets the most PT of the freshman; Rozier, Phelps, Reese, and Sullivan all 
seem to be buried now.

---

On another note, NC State beat Ga Tech yesterday.  Anyone have Kenny Anderson's
stats?   It seemed like he missed his first ten shots.

The ACC definitely has the best group of point guards of any league...
Anderson, Corchiani, Crotty are top-notch;  Walt Williams, Rice and Hurley are
a level below; Haven't seen the Wake Forest or Clemson guards yet.

Rodney Rogers {the Wake Forest freshman} scored 25 with 9 boards in the win
over Clemson Saturday.  He's got a lock on the ACC Rookie title, especially
since Grant Hill of Duke has been out for a couple games with a broken nose.

17.7SACT41::ROSSIf war, who'll run 7-11's?Tue Jan 15 1991 10:316
>On another note, NC State beat Ga Tech yesterday.  Anyone have Kenny Anderson's
>stats?   It seemed like he missed his first ten shots.

Answering my own question, Anderson was 8 for 21 against NC State with less
than 7 assists {Jon Barry led team with 7}.   Rodney Monroe scored 48 for the
Wolfpack.
17.8Games like this make it all too clear Ketch! (Haw!!)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jan 15 1991 12:249
>    North Carolina 89, Virginia 86 in double overtime.
    
>    Have I mentioned lately how much I hate those guys ???   
    
    
    Heh heh heh!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.9SACT41::ROSSIf war, who'll run 7-11's?Tue Jan 15 1991 12:327
C'mon Chris.. tell us what King Rice's punishment was for his brutal assault.
Besides apologizing to his teammates for getting caught...

Are you satisfied with the performance of the greatest recruiting class of 
all time?    What are they averaging, about a combined 12 points, 6 boards
a game?  

17.10Purdue drops one to IU. Ross comes pickin' on me! (hehheh)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jan 15 1991 13:594
    13-1 baby.  THIRTEEN -AND- ONE.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.11SACT41::ROSSDick Clark's Rockin' Iraq EveTue Jan 15 1991 14:1015
The answer is :  13-1 

The question: What are the odds that Dean Smith will win a big tournament game?

or          : How many times did King Rice squeeze his date's throat and how
	      many officers did he assault?

or          : What's a typical points/rebound line for a UNC forward?

or          : What's an unlucky number and what's the number of titles won
	      by the coach who's had the most talented players?

or          : What's the best record UNC will have this year?


17.12CSOA1::BACHOnward through the fog...Tue Jan 15 1991 14:329
    Chris,
    
    What's the status with the NC/Kentucky total win race?
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach
    
    P.S.
    
    Ky should have beaten N.C.
17.13ineligible RONHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughTue Jan 15 1991 15:463
NoTY police alert. Change of status. ACCCCChris has spoken. 

TTom
17.143:19 :: 1:30 = Bob > 'Snuff [metrically verified]CARP::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewTue Jan 15 1991 16:361
    
17.15What 'bout Xcellent losses?AXIS::ROBICHAUDZamfir's Heavy Metal ClassicsTue Jan 15 1991 16:551
    
17.16Who cares?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jan 15 1991 17:0715
    Chip I can assure that I speak for the entire Tar Heel community when
    I tell you we simply don't give a pimple_on_a_rats_butt who's leading in
    this "All-Time W's" race.  
    
    On the other hand rumor has it that the Kaintuckians are clinging to
    their record like a momma to her child whilst riding the NY subways. 
    They even went back and did more "research" which uncovered a few more
    wins!  (The NCAA accepted these, thereby allowing the 'Cats to cling to
    their deteriorating lead for a little while longer.)
    
    Clearly if Dean had an indefinite life span we'd own this record
    until time itself came to an end. 
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.17Lesse, if Knight gets 3 in 19 and Smif' gets ...SHALOT::HUNTBippity Boppity BooTue Jan 15 1991 17:3216
17.18And y'all wonder why Ketch holds such a grudge!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jan 15 1991 17:4315
    Still havin' trouble getting over that double OT thriller, eh Ketch?
    Heh heh. 
    
    Speaking of long spans of time though, Woody mentioned during the Heels
    @ UVa game the other night that if Virginia had won it would've been
    the first time since (gulp!) 1948 that the Cavs had beaten the Tar
    Heels 3 times in a row.
    
    Let's hope it's another 43 years before *that* streak comes into
    jeopardy again!
    
    Haw haw!!!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.19YawnSHALOT::HUNTBippity Boppity BooTue Jan 15 1991 18:256
    Soup dodges question.  Soup brings up old history.  Soup accuses Hunt
    of holding grudges.
    
    Yep, I think I've seen this movie a few times before.
    
    Bob Hunt
17.20CARP::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewTue Jan 15 1991 19:0116
    >What about Xcellent losses!?
    
    Damned good question.  Well, if you wanna talk choking with sytle
    here's my list:
    
    1. Dean Smif'
    2. "coach" John Stompshim
    3. Dale Brown
    4. Jim BayWhine
    5. CoachK (he's young yet)
    
    Everytime I go to a good strip bar I look up and this list flashed in
    my mind and I take a slug a my Heineken and promise myself that if *I*
    ever get that kinda talent in my hands I'm not gonna squander it!
    
    Big10 Tom
17.21don't forget Guy LewisHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughTue Jan 15 1991 19:080
17.22SACT41::ROSSDick Clark's Rockin' Iraq EveTue Jan 15 1991 19:131
Geez, T, look harder next time.. bet you'll see Digger Phelps in there, too.
17.23Pack(Fire and Ice)Attack!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSComin'on strong in'91Tue Jan 15 1991 19:2111
    
    O.K. Chris...Give me a few details of Wednesday night game with
    State! Will the Tar-baby's KILL them or will they lose their cool and
    just play well enough to choke?  I hope that State can play some tough
    defense on these guys...It's going to be tough!
    
    Go Pack!
    
    BTW, the game is at the Dumb Dome
    
    B.A.
17.24C'mon Chris... WHAT WAS RICE'S PUNISHMENT????SACT41::ROSSDick Clark's Rockin' Iraq EveTue Jan 15 1991 19:353
I went out on a limb late late last year and said that NC State would
beat NC once this year.   Hope that this is the week, but it will probably
be at home.
17.25I luv these facts. Luv em!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jan 15 1991 19:4412
    Now holed on a minute thair BobHunt.  I ain't never, ever brought up
    the fact that Virginia hasn't beaten the Tar Heels 3 times in a row since
    1948 before.  Never!  (Fact is, I didn't know about the fact until last
    Saturday night.  So there!)
    
    (BTW, we were 6-4 against UVa during the Sampson "glory" years, when
    Virginia's talent level closely resembled the New York Knickerbockers,
    or some such professional franchise ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.26You made more sense as a RON, SoupSHALOT::HUNTBippity Boppity BooWed Jan 16 1991 13:1422
17.27Best of times for UVa were also best of times for UNCRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jan 16 1991 13:5317
    You cannot deny, BobHunt, that the ushering in of the "Sampson Era" at
    UVa was supposed to, finally, allow the Cavs to dominate their
    southern neighbor.  Ralph was a franchise player in college, so I beg
    you to avoid the propaganda campaign which would suggest that the shell
    of the player we see now at the end of the bench of the 2nd worst team
    in the league was the same one that played outstanding basketball for
    Virginia for 4 years.  
    
    Without a doubt though there was tremendous parity between the 2
    programs, and at several points they were ranked 1/2 or 2/1 in the
    country.  
    
    My point is simply that at the *peak* of Virginia hoops history they
    still could not beat the Tar Heels more times than they lost to them. 
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.28Dean condones assaultSACT41::ROSSSaddam has gas!Wed Jan 16 1991 13:583
Chris, what was King Rice's punishment for his brutal assault?  Speculation
is welcomed!

17.29Give it a rest, SoupSHALOT::HUNTBippity Boppity BooWed Jan 16 1991 14:1724
    Soup,
    
    You were the one who likened the 1980-84 Cavs to a professional NBA
    team, not me.
    
    I simply pointed out that your Carolina teams of the same era were
    much better stocked with NBA material.
    
    It's ludicrous to debate it even further.   Jordan, Perkins, and Worthy
    against Sampson, Lamp, and Raker.   Uh, lemme see now, which team had
    more pro potential on it ???    Geez, this is a toughie.
    
    At this point, after analyzing all the different players and coaches
    involved, I ought to feel damn proud of the fact that my Hoos won 4 out
    of 10 games against the Star Heels.
    
    And perpetual shame on Dean Smith for ruining the ACC Tournament Final
    game of 1982 with his ridiculous slowdown.   If ever two teams deserved
    to play it full out with no holds barred, mano a mano, it was those two
    teams.
    
    And if hadn't been for Fred Brown ...
    
    Bob Hunt
17.30A little psychoanalysis reveals the truth!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jan 16 1991 14:4411
    I'm resting quite comfortably Ketch, thank you.  (Although that clearly
    will NOT be the case when the Heels do battle with State tonight at the
    DD!)
    
    Gotta laugh over your statement that you "ought to" be proud of the
    franchise-led Cavs going 4-6 against the Heels.  The Freudian slip 
    sez alot!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.31some clarification on RalphPNO::HEISERArmageddon AppetiteWed Jan 16 1991 16:2317
>    Oh, really ???    There is *one* player left from those teams still in
>    the NBA.  Ralph Sampson is the 12th man on the Sacramento Kings.   He'd
>    be 13th if they allowed 13 players on the rosters.  His knees are shot
>    and he'll probably be waived any day now after he and the Kings work
>    out a contract buyout.   No one else from those teams had any impact in
    
    Ralph went thru an intense rehab program in Phoenix last summer.  Many
    teams are still interested in him, but not at his current $2M/yr
    contract.  He's in Motta's doghouse and will stay there until they
    waive him or his contract expires (anyone know when that is?).
    
    Both Jerry Colangelo (Suns President) and Jerry West (Lakers GM) have
    expressed interest in him and say he's in the best shape of his career
    at this time (due to the rehab).  My source is right from them via
    radio interviews.
    
    Mike
17.32More on SampsonKUDZU::HUNTBippity Boppity BooWed Jan 16 1991 16:3325
    Ralph's contract with the Kings has three more years left at $2,000,000
    per year.  Nobody will take him off the Kings' hands for that kind of a
    risk.  What's more is that few teams, if any, have that kind of room
    underneath their salary cap anyway.
    
    I have read about his summer rehab in Phoenix, also.   What I've also
    read is recent quotes from the Hornets' GM, Alan Bristow, who's also
    interested in a healthy Sampson.  Bristow thought he was laboring to
    get up and down the court and concluded that his knees are toast.  
    Bristow could be wrong or he could be downplaying speculation that he's
    interested in the first place.  I don't know.
    
    Whatever happens, first Sampson and the Kings will have to part ways
    with a contract buyout settlement.  Then he can negotiate elsewhere.
    
    What I don't understand is why he's in Motta's doghouse.  If he is
    healthy, what does Motta have to lose ???   The Kings lost by 42 points
    to the Hornets last week.  Sampson played all of 9 minutes of garbage
    time.   If he is healthy, couldn't he have helped out a bit more ??? 
    Maybe not enough to win *that* game but enough to keep it respectable
    maybe ???
    
    Strange ...
    
    Bob Hunt
17.33Chris Washburn,Clemson,KingRiceSACT41::ROSSWar : a trillion dollar businessWed Jan 16 1991 16:356
I know Chris must be so embarrassed by Dean's utter lack of disciplinary 
action against King Rice for his assault on a girl that he cannot even
fathom to guess what punishment Rice received.

Can't wait til UNC plays at Duke... I imagine the students might have something 
planned to congratulate King on his gal-beating techniques.
17.35KUDZU::MEDVIDPresident GasWed Jan 16 1991 16:5111
>Can't wait til UNC plays at Duke... I imagine the students might have something 
>planned to congratulate King on his gal-beating techniques.
    
    Oh, good point!  I hope this one's on TV.  When is it?
    
    Anyone speculate a guess on what the best fans in the NCAA will do?
    
    	- boxing gloves?
    	- hangman's nooses?
    	- rice?
    
17.36he's not happy eitherPNO::HEISERArmageddon AppetiteWed Jan 16 1991 17:0114
    Re: Sampson
    
    It could be that he just isn't in "playing shape".  You need minutes to
    achieve that in the NBA.
    
    I'd bet the Kings will hang on to him in hopes of getting something for
    him.
    
    Did you hear about the fight he and Wennington got into during the
    Kings' PR Day?  They had a Saturday practice open to the public and
    Ralph and Wennington got into a fight during it.  After it was broken
    up, Ralph stormed off spewing expletives for all to enjoy ;-)
    
    Mike
17.37Forget about the Gulf, there's a war tonight in Chapel HillRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jan 16 1991 17:0920
    Carolina @ Duke this Saturday (1/19) @8:00pm.  (ESPN)
    
    I'm sure the students will have something cooked up that will be
    typically unsporting and distasteful.  Who knows, maybe it'll even 
    be racist (again).
    
    But the good guys in baby blue can ill afford to look ahead to the trip
    down the road to Cameroon (where, by the way, we've won 8 out of the
    last 11 times) with the Pack invading the DD tonight.  I'm seriously
    concerned about this game, primarily because my wife just called and
    sez she's on the brink of going into labor for our newest arrival!
    
    This adds extra pressure, cause I can't stand the thought of having a
    child born on the night the Heels lose.  Only thing I can do is stay
    glued to the set (they've got TV's in the Labor/Deliver Rooms) and, if
    a loss is imminent, pray that she hangs on until 1/17!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.38SACT41::ROSSWar : a trillion dollar businessWed Jan 16 1991 17:3313
>    Whatever happened to that college hoops conference that *someone*
>    proposed in the dying days of ::OURGNG? 

I set it up... with all the base notes and everything, but based on the number
of college hoop entries in here since Jan 1, decided that the added overhead of
an extra  conference probably wasn't  worth it.    If there's a demand for it,
I will open it up to the world, no problem.

> Maybe that question about
>    Rice's punishment can be asked IN THERE a million times, and maybe
>    ANSWERED FINALLY........

next/unseen
17.39Another little "canlet" in the Soup cupboardSHALOT::HUNTBippity Boppity BooWed Jan 16 1991 17:4123
17.41QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Wed Jan 16 1991 17:548
The Duke fans generally come up with some good stuff.

I predict it'll be something along the line of:
                                   
              THAT LOVABLE, SLAP-HAPPY GUY... KINK RICE!
                           HEY! DON'T CHOKE!

Mike JN
17.42Hope everything works out!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSComin'on strong in'91Wed Jan 16 1991 18:239
    ACC Chris...
    
    	When you do over-excite yourself tonight..and your wife does too. If
    it's a girl name her Val...for Valvano! If it's a boy name him
    Dave...for David Thompson!
    
    Good luck!
    
    B.A.
17.43ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSYAD1066,1215,1789,1848,1917,1989Wed Jan 16 1991 19:5711
    re Wennington vs. Sampson
    
    Classic case of one self-made player making a career out of minimal
    talent and another fashioning a sow's ear out of a silk purse...
    
    Hey Bob, I've got a solution to their problem if Ralph is brooding
    for revenge: Fly in King Lice to beat up Bill's wife, and then maybe
    if James is in town they cain truck her over to the ho-tel for some
    get-down partying!  Does this make sense?!
    
    MrT 
17.44Ding!SHALOT::HUNTSquare Dancing :== Country RapWed Jan 16 1991 20:528
17.45Motta is as good as gone.EARRTH::BROOKSPsssst .... Elvis is dead.Thu Jan 17 1991 03:1218
    re Bob H.
    
    Bob, Motta has been showing definite signs of senilty all year. He
    constantly downgrades his team (granted, when you score 59 points in a
    game, you deserve it), and even management said that he has not helped
    matters for his team. Rookies are afraid to go to him.
    
    As for Ralph, Motta started him for 5 games. I guess he expected Ralph
    to fall on his face. Instead, Ralph had 16 boards and a few blocks in
    one game, and played well in a couple others. Then Motta buried him
    again.
    
    Word has it that Ralph will be cut loose/traded if/when his contract is
    restructured, and that the Suns, Lakers, and Cavs are interested.
    
    Good luck Ralph.
    
    Doc
17.46SACT41::ROSSDeadly, when I play a dope melodyThu Jan 17 1991 11:584
Virginia beat Maryland last night.
Duke beat The Citadel.
Clemson beat Western Carolina.
NC State versus UNC was postponed... 
17.47SACT41::ROSSDeadly, when I play a dope melodyMon Jan 21 1991 10:5830
17.48No way in heaven, earth or hell the Celts would get him..MAXWEL::CHILDSTrifecta confirmed. payoff due 9/12!Mon Jan 21 1991 12:4414
 Doug Tech beat Virgina over the weekend. Kenny needs help. Small guys
 got to have teammates. Big guys like Shack, it don't matter.

 Speaking of Shack, Bob Hunt I was thinking how you mentioned the Heat
 maybe not taking him with the number 1 pick and I admit I originally 
 thought it made good sense but after watching him again the other night
 against 'bama , no way, I'd trade Sikely. The only teams I can think
 of that wouldn't takw Shack numero uno are Knicks, Rockets, Spurs.

 If he declares I'd love to see the Warriors package their 3 #1 picks
 in the upcoming draft and get him. Instant Contenders I'd say...

 mike
17.49SACT41::ROSSDeadly, when I play a dope melodyMon Jan 21 1991 12:5720
>Kenny needs help. Small guys got to have teammates. 

Right.  That's why I wonder, why so much hype?   Calling him the greatest
point guard ever right now is so much hot air.   What happens if he ends
up with a team like Minnesota?  or Orlando?   or  Sacramento?   Is he going
to add 15 wins to those teams?   I don't think so.  

He has some decent teammates... They aren't stiffs.  Malcom Mackey and Matt
Geiger are good players and I've been really impressed by Rick Barry's kid,
Jon.  

How about if the Lakers offer up either Worthy or a package of A.C. Green
and Byron Scott to draft Kenny?  Move Magic into a forward spot for the next
five years.

>Big guys like Shack,  it don't matter.                                    

You said it... I saw that Alabama game, too and he was awesome at times.
I'd go pro if I were him, mostly to get away from Dale Brown.... but
according to SI this week, he's staying in school.
17.50What did they say?SHALOT::MEDVIDthe plans for a future warMon Jan 21 1991 13:2810
    I'd like to know if anyone knows what the Duke students chanted at King
    Rice when he came onto the Cameron court Saturday night.  The paper
    mentioned it, but wouldn't print it.
    
    Probably something racial, right Knorr?  Uh huh.
    
    UVA fell to Tech big time, while NCSU ran into a big loss at Wake
    Forest.
    
    	--dan'l
17.51FSOA::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Mon Jan 21 1991 13:335
    ACC Chris is being vewy vewy quiet today after the Cartwheels loss to
    DUKE.  I must have bit off every single fingernail watching the game.
    The Dream Team from NC was not impressive.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
17.52MAXWEL::CHILDSTrifecta confirmed. payoff due 9/12!Mon Jan 21 1991 13:376
 Chris is probably at home with the wife and newborn. He'll be in later
 to remind us it's not a long season but that UNC is a long way from
 being a good team... ;^)

 mike
17.53Duke *players* get a "W"; fans get a tongue lashing. (Hah!)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jan 21 1991 14:3321
    Congrats to the Nerds for the "W" Saturday night.  I thought their
    defense was outstanding - really took us out of our offense.  There
    were simply no easy shots for the men in baby blue.  Course we
    contributed to the ease of the win with several unforced turnovers. 
    (None by King Rice, BTW.)  Duke is now 4-8 against Carolina at Cameron
    over the last 12 years, so I ain't feeling too badly ...
    
    Easily the highlight of the night for me though was the film
    (broadcast by ESPN) showing Coach K talking to the Duke fans a couple
    days prior to the game.  Basically he urged them to avoid their usual
    tastelessness, even going so far as to mention that Pete Chilcutt's
    brother is fighting in the Persian Gulf.
    
    Now for all you folks who insist that Duke fans are real nice,
    sporting, classy, etc., ask yourselves the question why Coach K felt
    the necessity to make that speech.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
17.55Phew, big butt, big butt, big butt....CAM::WAYBo don't know which one's VanilliMon Jan 21 1991 14:458
Do you mean Shack-Keel, the LSU Houseboat?  

There's a photo in SI that has him flying towards the camera butt first.
I was clearly able to identify a serving platter, a gravy boat,
cups, saucers, dinner platers, dessert plates, and a candelabra before
turning the page.....

'Saw
17.56FSOA::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Mon Jan 21 1991 14:536
    DUKE fans do sometimes go overboard, and I think Coach K. did the right
    thing. He probably told them to calm done and keep things simple; it
    seemed that the NC players did not understand what the "nerds" were
    saying. :)
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
17.57What a school, eh ???SHALOT::HUNTSquare Dancing :== Country RapMon Jan 21 1991 15:1124
 Chris,
 
 Nobody ever said the Duke fans were classy.  Just uproariously funny,
 that's all.   I still think their best moment was yelling "Where's our
 gold ???" at John Thompson at the East Regionals in 1989.
 
 To all ...
 
 A moment please, if you will, for me to brag about the finest school on
 the planet ...
 
 It was reported that this year's ultimate bowl sluts, my beloved Virginia
 Cavaliers, have sliced off close to a half a million dollars of their
 total take from the Sugar Bowl and flat out given it with no strings
 attached to, are you ready for this, the University's academic funding.   
 Am I proud or what ???   Keep in mind that this is half a mill *after*
 they had already split the booty with the rest of the conference schools.
 
 Oh, and Tennessee, the Hoos' bowl opponent, gave all their coaches pay
 raises instead.
 
 Way to go, Hoos.  Now about the Georgia Tech game ...
 
 Bob Hunt
17.58FSOA::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Mon Jan 21 1991 15:2110
    Re: Duke Fans
    
    Remember when they were all jingling keys when Shackelford came to
    Cameron.  He was apparently caught stealing a car.
    
    Or when they have the Vitale impressions....
    
    Good academics but no babes...
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
17.59You're hearing things for your own goodSHALOT::MEDVIDthe plans for a future warMon Jan 21 1991 16:0717
>   Basically he urged them to avoid their usual
>    tastelessness, even going so far as to mention that Pete Chilcutt's
>     brother is fighting in the Persian Gulf.
    
>    Now for all you folks who insist that Duke fans are real nice,
>    sporting, classy, etc., ask yourselves the question why Coach K felt
>    the necessity to make that speech.
    
    You not only wear baby blue glasses, you've got some baby blue cotton
    in your ears.   If Coach K didn't want the best fans in the land to be
    just that, he'd have to make that speach before every game.  K was
    specifically referring to Chilcutt's situation and nothing else.  Do
    you honestly think the Duke fans would have crossed that line in light
    of the whole situation, speach or not?  They might be tasteless, but
    they are not ignorant.
    
    	--dan'l
17.60just fansHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughMon Jan 21 1991 17:3315
Duke fans are tasteless and inconsiderate. They are not ignorant as their
"theme" is usually very pointed. They are also mostly funny. In fact, I
like them better than the geeks on the court or the weasel on the bench.

Some great moments at Duke would have to include 2 at State's expense.
The first was a few years back when Tiny Pender got caught shoplifing
underwear and everyone had a pair of BVDs on their head. The second was
when '83 Championship-winning-dunker Lorenzo Charles got caught stealing
pizza and everyone came with Domino's costumes and pizza boxes.

The only think that makes me question the intelligence of Duke is that
"Cameron Indoor" part of the name of the arena. Don't they know the game
is indoors?

TTom
17.61When ND releases info like this it's shameless propaganda...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Jan 21 1991 17:4822
 > It was reported that this year's ultimate bowl sluts, my beloved Virginia
 > Cavaliers, have sliced off close to a half a million dollars of their
 > total take from the Sugar Bowl and flat out given it with no strings
 > attached to, are you ready for this, the University's academic funding.   
 > Am I proud or what ???   Keep in mind that this is half a mill *after*
 > they had already split the booty with the rest of the conference schools.
    
    Noble, but I wouldn't get carried away.  Notre Dame announced they were
    doing the same thing with the money from their new TV contract, which
    was roundly met in here with cynicism as strictly a publicity measure.
    There's some merit to that argument, too, because like with US
    Government budget accounting practices, you don't know what money is
    going where when it all comes out of a total university operating 
    budget.  But, I'd agree, Virginia probably could afford to stick some
    extra dollars into their football program (starting with a new field
    after those school-spirited kids torched it on the eve of the big
    game with Georgia Tech), whereas Notre Dame football has never wanted 
    for anything...
    
    glenn
      
17.62I bow to Duke's commander in chief (CoachK) on the possibilitiesRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jan 21 1991 17:5615
    > K was specifically referring to Chilcutt's situation and nothing 
    > else.  Do you honestly think the Duke fans would have crossed that 
    > line in light of the whole situation, speach or not?  
    
    That's the beauty of it dan'l - it doesn't matter whether *I* think
    they could've been that tasteless.  Obviously CoachK thought they
    *could*, otherwise why the speech?!
    
    > They might be tasteless, but they are not ignorant.
    
    I've never said the Nerds were stupid.  I *have* said they're unsporting,
    rude, and, at least on one occasion, racist.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.63Just a little slutty, that's all ...SHALOT::HUNTSquare Dancing :== Country RapMon Jan 21 1991 18:0018
    Glenn,
    
    I would have thought you might have been able to see through some of
    the faux chest-beating I was doing.
    
    Having dished it out, I'm well aware of the heat Notre Dame takes when
    they do the same kinds of things.   
    
    I'm sure my Wahoos are quickly learning just how powerfully effective a
    hype machine (a la the Irish) can be.   After all, the public didn't
    necessarily have to know what they did with the loot but the good folks
    in Hoo-ville must have thought it would be nice if we knew they ain't
    *total* sluts.
    
    I wanted to feel good about them after their dismal performance against
    Georgia Tech this past weekend.
    
    Bob Hunt
17.64FSOA::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Mon Jan 21 1991 18:015
    I have a hard time seeing their fans as racist considering that they
    have several black players on their team and a fairly large minority
    population (granted overseas students mostly).
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
17.65cute only when winningHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughMon Jan 21 1991 18:037
One more thnig about Duke fans: they definitely lose their humor when the
game goes sour. At last year's ACC Tournament, I had the privilege of
sitting in the Duke section while they lost to Ga Tech in the semis. They
started strong with all their cuteness and ended with nothing to say. Of
course, being the only Tech rooter helped me savor the moment.

TTom
17.66Sorry, Bob. Missed the partial tongue-in-cheek...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Jan 21 1991 18:161
    
17.67SHALOT::MEDVIDthe plans for a future warMon Jan 21 1991 18:298
    Chris,
    
    Which of their acts was racist.  I'm unfamiliar with it or maybe just
    not seeing it as racist.
    
    Didn't they also throw condoms at someone accused of sexual assault?
    
    	--dan'l
17.68SACT41::ROSSDeadly, when I play a dope melodyMon Jan 21 1991 18:357
I believe Chris is referring to an incident several years ago when Duke
fans held up signs that said something like "J.R. Kan U Rede This?".

The flap was apparently that making fun of someone's intelligence is
obviously a racially motivated act.   

I've seen and heard much worse down here in Dixie.  
17.69Lowest of a long history of lows for the nerds ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jan 21 1991 18:3512
    The documented evidence of racism (and, BTW, Dean came down *hard* on
    'em for this) occured during JR's playing days at Carolina.  The
    students were all over him with posters that read
    
    "JR CAN'T REID"
    
    As it turns out, JR *can* read and in fact was a solid student with a
    solid SAT score.  But the inescapable reaility is that there would've
    been no signs if JR were white.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.70More ...SHALOT::HUNTSquare Dancing :== Country RapMon Jan 21 1991 18:358
 He's probably referring to their "JR Can't Read" posters.    I didn't see
 the humor in that one but I also missed the racist content as well.
 
 They used to jingle their car keys at State's Clyde Austin, too.  Clyde
 was apparently seen driving some really rad wheels and they let him know
 he'd been noticed.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.71SACT41::ROSSDeadly, when I play a dope melodyMon Jan 21 1991 18:388
> But the inescapable reaility is that there would've
>    been no signs if JR were white.

Based on what?   Admission by Duke students?  or posturing by Dean Smith?

The fact that J.R. looks like Baby Huey had nothing to do with it?

If that's racism, then we've come a long way, baby.
17.72For kids who're supposed to be so smart, they sure are dumbRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jan 21 1991 18:417
    Ask yourself the question "If JR Reid were white, would there have been
    posters?"  I think not.  The only defense I can offer the nerds is
    perhaps racism is too strong a word, and that they're only (!) guilty of
    gross and malicious stereotyping.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.73IMHOHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughMon Jan 21 1991 18:4416
Yeah, State has given Duke a lot of material.

Duke really got into giving JR a hard time. I don't think that it was
motivated by racism but it certainly was perceived by many people to be
that. While Duke may not be racist, they certainly are elitist.  And in a
state that has almost conitunously experienced racial tensions, it looked
a whole lot like a bunch of white kids laying into a black athlete.

So Dean went on the record and claimed the JR's SAT was better than Danny
Ferry's.

Actually, I think that some of the Tar Heel motivation comes from not
wanting anyone to be more elitist than they are and being mocked for
inferiority by Duke was more than they could handle.

TTom
17.74FSOA::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Mon Jan 21 1991 18:584
    My impression of the JR poster was that it was a play on his last name
    and not a racist remark.  
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
17.75Jealous cause it was a Tar-baby?RAVEN1::B_ADAMSCan you say Daytona?Mon Jan 21 1991 19:0617
    re-2,
    	
    	Speaking of Ferry, When I was at the tournament in Greensboro, ALL
    the fans were giving Ferry a hard time..i.e. Feerrryy, while moving
    there wrist to a traditional "Fag" motion..last time I looked Ferry was
    white.
    
    	State has taken alot of hits from all over the ACC...Stereo's being
    thrown, Domino's pizza boxes, watches,along with the chantings.
    
    	I think the Duke fans do not pick on the prey because of a
    color...just a name or action to help them irratate the subject.
    
    .02
    
    
    B.A.
17.76what, I'm not sureHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughMon Jan 21 1991 19:067
I guess pizzas, car keys and underwear are colorless slurs but there's
another sensitivity to claiming a black guy can't read. Of course, the
Tar Heels thought the former were all funny.

Just goes to show...

TTom
17.77sounds right to meMAXWEL::CHILDSTrifecta confirmed. payoff due 9/12!Mon Jan 21 1991 19:074
 Interesting point there TTom, care to counter Chris? ;^)

 mike
17.78TTom may be on to something, but it's not the issue.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jan 21 1991 19:2618
    TTom's subjective theory on the nature of UNC vs. Duke elitism may very
    well be correct, but does nothing to justify the behavior of their
    students in regards to JR.  Now, if he had some specifics on
    racism/stereotyping performed by Carolina fans, we might be on to
    something.  It's highly unlikely though, cause Dean simply wouldn't
    tolerate this kind of thing, just like he doesn't tolerate fan waving
    while opponents shoot free throws.
    
    Without question though, Duke fans are incredibly elitist.  One of
    their favorite chants used to be "STATE SCHOOL!, STATE SCHOOL!, STATE
    SCHOOL!".  I've heard 'em use it against Carolina.  Presumably they'd
    use it against everybody in the ACC 'sept Wake.
    
    The horrible linear logic used by the nerds is of course that a private
    school's academics are better than a state school.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.79SHALOT::MEDVIDthe plans for a future warMon Jan 21 1991 19:287
    Sounds like a play on words and nothing else to me.  But Dean said it
    was racist so...well it must be true.
    
    Thanks for explaining, though, Chris.  Keep pulling for the green and
    you might find something credible.
    
    	--dan'l
17.80You get what you pay forSHALOT::MEDVIDthe plans for a future warMon Jan 21 1991 19:3616
>    The horrible linear logic used by the nerds is of course that a private
>    school's academics are better than a state school.
    
    In this case and many, many, many, many other cases I'd say this is
    very, very, very, very true.  
    
    Are you saying that Duke is not a superior school (academically) to
    NCSU and UNC?  
    
    I'm a Carnegie Mellon elitist and proud of it.  No way anyone from Pitt
    gets a better education than what's available across the ravine.  I
    thought Ohio University was a great institution, but when I got to grad
    school and saw what these Tartans were studying in undergrad...hey,
    private schools are where it's at academically.
    
    	--dan'l
17.81Lots of private money at some state schools, tooSHALOT::HUNTSquare Dancing :== Country RapMon Jan 21 1991 19:4415
    North Carolina may be a state school but you'll get a superb education
    there, too.
    
    Same with Virginia, too.   A lot of it has to with the size of the
    school's investments and endowments.   In both Virginia and North
    Carolina's cases, they were private schools long before they accepted
    state funding (I don't know when they made the switch).    But thus,
    they have huge and still growing privately-financed endowment funds
    and, in reality, should more correctly be called "state-subsidized"
    schools.
    
    It takes big money, more than a state can provide, to attract and hold
    top academic talent and these two attract quite a bit of it.
    
    Bob Hunt
17.82As with many racial issues, can't prove it, it don't exist...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Jan 21 1991 19:487
    
    I think there's very definitely a racial insinuation in joking that a
    black athlete can't read, but hey, it's up to the individual to decide
    for himself, I guess...
    
    glenn
      
17.83What if...RAVEN1::B_ADAMSCan you say Daytona?Mon Jan 21 1991 19:518
    
    	What would you say if I find this matter racist to the Duke
    students? Cause they come up with some good put-downs..doesn't mean
    they're racist.
    
    .03
    
    B.A.
17.84elitismHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughMon Jan 21 1991 19:5212
That UNC-Chapel Hill has a problem with race is a matter of public
record. But like Chris says, that's not the issue, at least not the one
that I raised. I proposed that Duke is eliter than No Carolina and that
this is one of the problems that No Carolina might have in appreciating
Duke's taunting of JR. 

I have expressed the opinion that Tar Heels are definitely elitist and
for evidence I suggest one spend some time in Charlotte and savor this
from the banks, the press and other news media, etc. I ain't making this
up. I think that Duke's elitism is obvious.

TTom
17.85CAM::WAYGo get yourself some cheap sunglassesTue Jan 22 1991 11:4119
re Private Schools:

	In many, many cases, it's true.  Private schools often times
	have a much larger pot of money to play with.  

	State schools are great if you can't really afford an education
	but chose to go to college (i.e. me).  If I could do it all over
	again, there's several other places I'd have gone (if money was
	no object)....

re Reading/Racism:

	Maybe I'm awfully naive, but I've known some white jocks who
	had a hard time reading, writing papers, and doing regular
	academic stuff.  Why is it racist?  Just because JR is black?
	Would it be racist if they were making fun of John Doe who
	couldn't read and he was white?  Same principle, no?

'Saw
17.86Corchianni sets 2 recordsHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughTue Jan 22 1991 12:418
Chris Corchianni became the ACC career leader in assists and steals. He
had 10 assists and 4 steals as State beat Marquette, 89-76. That puts him
6th on the NCAA career list. I don't know how far down he is at this
point, but at the beginning of the season he needed slightly more than
200 down. His current total of 861 puts him in range of 1000, which no
one has acheived.

TTom
17.87A fine line that I believe was crossed...NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Jan 22 1991 13:0431
    >	Maybe I'm awfully naive, but I've known some white jocks who
    >	had a hard time reading, writing papers, and doing regular
    >	academic stuff.  Why is it racist?  Just because JR is black?
    >	Would it be racist if they were making fun of John Doe who
    >	couldn't read and he was white?  Same principle, no?
    
    It's not racist that someone can't read, it's racist (in my opinion) 
    to wave a placard around insinuating such because the athlete in
    question in black, especially as that particular athlete has 
    demonstrated in no way that he is illiterate.  You haven't asked the 
    proper question.  It's not whether there are indeed dumb white 
    athletes, because there are, but whether you've ever seen an open 
    demonstration at a sporting event claiming such.  Have you?
    
    Lemme put it another, less accusatory, way.  If someone handed me that 
    sign and asked me wave it around in front of JR Reid, I'd immediately
    recognize what conclusions could be drawn from its tastelessness and 
    refuse.  Why didn't these wonderfully intelligent Duke students (which 
    was Chris' point, I believe)?
    
    Extending your arguments, I hope that if this is not just a case to 
    hammer on Dean Smith and protect the Duke students at Carolina's 
    expense (which is my suspicion), that to be consistent none of you 
    guys inferred anything from George Bush's or Jesse Helms' campaign
    commercials.  After all, there was nothing overt or untruthful that 
    can be proved in either case, right?  I mean, Willie Horton really 
    did do those awful things that Bush said he did...
    
    glenn
       
17.88CAM::WAYWho more than self, their country lovedTue Jan 22 1991 13:2025
>    Extending your arguments, I hope that if this is not just a case to 
>    hammer on Dean Smith and protect the Duke students at Carolina's 
>    expense (which is my suspicion), that to be consistent none of you 
>    guys inferred anything from George Bush's or Jesse Helms' campaign
>    commercials.  After all, there was nothing overt or untruthful that 
>    can be proved in either case, right?  I mean, Willie Horton really 
>    did do those awful things that Bush said he did...

I wasn't making any arguments, really.  I was just wondering why
everyone thought it was racist.  I don't know a lot about the schools
involved, other than the fact that LT is from UNC, ACC Chris bleeds baby blue,
and Duke turns out great doctors ;^).

It's been my experience that some of the jocks I've come across who were
white couldn't read, and that it seemed to me that it was more of an
indictment against jocks than against a black JR Reid...       

Like I said, perhaps I'm just really naive...

Wasn't their a bunch of controversy surrounding Patrick Ewing when he
was at Georgetown?  I don't know why that comes to mind...was it something
similar?

'Saw

17.89FSOA::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Tue Jan 22 1991 13:304
    If a black student raised the sign in front of a white athlete whose
    last name is Reid would that be also be racism ?
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
17.90Hypotheticals lead us nowhere... I'm addressing Duke/Reid only...NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Jan 22 1991 14:0311
    Sorry, Frank.  That reply wasn't directed at you personally.  I know
    you have had little to do with the UNC/ACC ratholes...
    
    > If a black student raised the sign in front of a white athlete whose
    > last name is Reid would that be also be racism ?
    
    Sure, if that was the intent.  Did it happen?  The Duke/Reid thing did.
    
    glenn
    
17.91CAM::WAYWho more than self, their country lovedTue Jan 22 1991 14:435
>    Sorry, Frank.  That reply wasn't directed at you personally.  I know
>    you have had little to do with the UNC/ACC ratholes...


Ok, no sweat...8^)
17.92FSOA::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Tue Jan 22 1991 14:4312
    Re: .90
    
    Is not hypothetical to assume that the sign was a racial slur without
    asking the student that actually drew it up ?  The perception that
    everything directed towards minorities is racial often causes problems
    in the assimilation of societies.
    
    I can see how the sign could be deemed as offensive to blacks, but I do
    believe blacks were the target as much as JR, the person. That is just
    my opinion and not based on fact.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
17.94Wonder how many naive readers sadly agree. :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jan 23 1991 14:3226
    Well the self-serving sports media is at it again, this time ranking on
    a group of NBA stars for participating in a promotion to encourage kids
    to stay in school.  In a move they no doubt think will point out the
    tewible hypocrisy of these pros, Sports Illustrated ran a piece in the
    Scorecard section which points out that many of these players "dropped
    out" of college.  Sadly but unsurprisingly I pick up my Atlanta
    Constitution today and find they've basically reprinted the article.
    
    Never mind that several of these players have gone back to get their
    degrees (Michael and Isiah) and one is within 1 class of getting his
    diploma.  (JR)  Never mind that each of the mentioned players is
    earning gobs more money than he could ever hope to achieve in any other
    profession.  Never mind that a single injury sustained during their
    college career could've wiped out a lifetime of financial security.
    Never mind any of it.
    
    The fact of the matter is the media doesn't want star college basketball or
    football players to head to the pros early (it's okay if you're a
    baseball player) cause it takes away high profile athletes from the
    immensely popular college games.
    
    One thing's for sure though - the media *did* point out the hypocrisy. 
    Unfortunately it's their own.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.95Come again ???SHALOT::HUNTGulf War = Iraqi Horror Picture ShowWed Jan 23 1991 15:0635
17.96I can see their point, partlyNAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Jan 23 1991 15:4919
    I think you two are in agreement.  ACChris is criticizing the
    media, not the players, for implying that there's some hypocrisy 
    present in college-dropout superstar basketball players telling 
    kids to stay in school.
    
    I don't think there's any hypocrisy on the part of the players, but I
    do question the use of athletes in these type of community service
    spots.  While the athletes may indeed hold the kids' attention, to me 
    it only reinforces the notion that sports are the best way out for 
    these kids, which is probably the worst possible conclusion.  The 
    message gets lost in the medium.  Why no commercials showing minority 
    doctors and businessmen telling kids to stay in school instead of
    always long-shot successful athletes and TV stars?  Is the public 
    really too numb to get it or do the television networks just 
    automatically see us that way?
    
    glenn
       
17.97ISLNDS::WASKOMWed Jan 23 1991 16:288
    My personal impression of the ads in question (I've seen a couple
    of them), are that they are aimed at the potential high-school
    drop-out.  As such, they seem to be pretty effective.  All of the
    players involved completed high school and went on to further higher
    education, whether they completed that post-secondary school work
    in the "normal" four years or not.
    
    A&W
17.98ACC Chris wrong on JR's credits; correct on media-analysisRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jan 23 1991 18:2512
    As Glenn points out my problem is with the *media*.  They're trying to
    tell us that these players are being hypocritical.  (If that's not
    their angle, what is?!)
    
    These players clearly are not being hypocritical.  In addition to all
    the reasons I mentioned, we have A&W's firsted-hand account that the
    ads aren't even aimed at college kids!
    
    Talk about a non-story ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.99State winsHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughThu Jan 24 1991 11:5718
State beat Duke for the fifth straight time in Reynolds, 95-89. Duke tied
the score twice in the second half but K couldn't weasel a win. Rodney
Monroe scored 35. IMHO, the highlight of the game had to be a shot
Laettner attempted in the closing minutes. This shot hit the backboard
structure behind the backboard. An embarassed ref pretended that it was
tipped by the Pack so Duke got the ball out and they still didn't win.

Meanwhile, in Winston-Salem, No Carolina beat Wake, 91-81. Rodney Rogers
was held scoreless in the second half. Rick Fox had 20 and King Rice had
22. Ya gotta feel good with the talent that Dean recruited, the Heels are
being led by King Rice and Pete Chilcutt. Rozier continues to sit on the
pine bewildered by The System and evidently not too enthusiastic about
defense. Eric Monstross (tm) continues to amaze fans and foes with his
incredible lack of foot speed. This man shoulda played for Bobby Knight.

In non-confernce play Virginia drubbed Va Tech, 86-61 (in Blacksburg).

TTom
17.100SACT41::ROSSBeau Knows French!Thu Jan 24 1991 12:2725
>Ya gotta feel good with the talent that Dean recruited, the Heels are
>being led by King Rice and Pete Chilcutt. Rozier continues to sit on the
>pine bewildered by The System and evidently not too enthusiastic about
>defense. 

Is my boxscore correct... Usually they list the starters first and then
the subs in order of entering the game.  For UNC, it's:

	Chilcutt, Rodl, Montross, Reese, Fox starting 
then
	Sullivan, Harris, Cherry, Salvadori, Lynch, Davis, Fox, Rozier,
	Wenstrom

I don't understand.  Shouldn't Dean play his best players?   Was there
some reason Fox and Lynch did not appear to start or enter the game
early?   It should be simple - Chilcutt,Fox,Lynch, Davis,Rice... Then
rotate in a freshman or two every couple minutes.

>Eric Monstross (tm) continues to amaze fans and foes with his
>incredible lack of foot speed. This man shoulda played for Bobby Knight.

He did grab 12 boards... season high.  But he's got journeyman written
all over him.   He's not just slow of foot, he's slow in all aspects.
His post moves look like a guy trying to count his steps while dancing.

17.101ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSYjust what did N. Fouquet know?Thu Jan 24 1991 15:0525
    Funny thing, but whenever the conversation turns to King Lice's
    wanton woman-beating he's a load, a non-factor, a_overrated player
    who 'Snuffy keeps around and plays outta the goodness a his heart.
    But this is no so when one reads the game articles or the boxes.
    
    What gives?
    
    re: public service
    
    Wake up and smell the hoses: These "public service" spots are self-
    serving devices that the leagues and sports celebrities take part in
    strictly for free PR.  I nearly puked a while back when somebody in
    here wrote a heart rending piece about James Worthy visiting a hospital
    ward on a road trip.  (This was before James' notion of pre-game 
    sandwiches were revealed.)  C'mon willya.  If sexpot James cares so
    much about poor sick kids then why the cameras and reporters?  Why
    don't he just slip on down to the ward and do his altruism in private
    for its own sake?  
    
    And *another* question: Given Worthy's peculiar sexual appetite, is
    it wise to turn him loose in a room full of children lying in beds?!
    
    Star Heels, ya gotta luv 'em...
    
    Big10 Tom
17.10214-2; tied for ACC lead. I'm content ...RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Jan 24 1991 18:3924
    Solid and impressive win for Carolina on the road last night at Wake. 
    Remember, this is the same Wake team that pounded State by 20+ points.
    There have been only 6 victories for visiting teams in the ACC this
    year and we've got 1/3 of 'em.
    
    Montross had his best outing of the year last night, but it should be
    pointed out we zoned for a good deal of the 2nd half.  The most
    disapointing aspect of his game so far may be his horrid free throw
    shooting.  Two (2) games in a row he's gone to the line for 2 and
    missed both.  His percentage is below 60%.  
    
    King Rice apparently enjoyed the football taunts of the Wake crowd (they 
    were chanting 'Hit her again, HARDER, HARDER', etc.) as he tied career
    high numbers in points.  The difference in the game was Carolina
    shooting 8/11 from 3-pt land in the 2nd half, while Wake couldn't hit
    crap against our packed-in zone.
    
    Dean picks his 5 starters based on practice and who's played the best
    'D'.  Has little to do with who's in the game at the end, which is where
    the important PT takes place.  What I wanna know is why Derrick Phelps
    didn't play.  Anything in the Charlotte papers on this? 
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.103get a life, King RiceHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughThu Jan 24 1991 18:4718
Chris,

Phelps has an injur - his hand I think - and didn't dress.

Poor King Rice. It seems that the only one who likes him is Dean. The Tar
Heels booed him at the Dean Dome. Wake booed him last night.  At the Duke
game, when they introduced the team it went like:

	Announcer:	At center, Pete Chilcutt
	Crowd:		Hi, Pete
	Announder:	... Rick Fox
	Crowd:		Hi, Rick
	Announcer:	... King Rice
	Crowd:		BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
	Announcer:	... Dean Smith
	Crowd:		Hi, Dean

TTom
17.104Yup, poor King. :^(RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Jan 24 1991 18:496
    And another thing:
    
    Even ACC Chris booed him (from his living room) during the UConn game!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.105Trivial question...but here goes anyway:SHALOT::MEDVIDNature must still find a wayFri Jan 25 1991 10:555
    How long have the ACC officials been wearing T-shirts instead of black
    and white stripes?  Is this the first season?  Are any other conference
    officials doing this?
    
    	--dan'l
17.106but don't know about refs' shirtsHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughFri Jan 25 1991 13:303
Ga Tech crushed Clemson, 89-68. Kenny Anderson had 32.

TTom
17.107CSOA1::BACHOnward through the fog...Fri Jan 25 1991 14:193
    goodbye N.C. hello Kentucky...
    
    Chip_PITINOVILLE_Bach
17.108RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHappiness is a warm gun!Fri Jan 25 1991 18:185
    re-shirts...
    
    	The Shirts have been around for a while...at least 2 years.
    
    B.A.
17.109Dean was outcoachedSACT41::ROSSWho dares to mock me?Mon Jan 28 1991 11:4217
North Carolina was beaten at the DeanDome by Georgia Tech yesterday, 88-86.
The Tar Heels blew a 16 point lead.

This was a game that Dean Smith lost.  By failing to play his best players
together long enough, UNC was unable to sustain the rhythm they developed.
Dean played 14 guys, GA Tech played 7.   This game should have been in the
bank before the second half started.

Eric Monstrosity scored a single point on 0-4 shooting to lead the greatest
recuriting class ever to a combined 2-9, 8 point total...  Bob Knight deserves
the coach of the year award for getting the Indiana schoolboy press to hype
up Montross enough to make Dean think he was a great center.  Attaboy, Bob!

For the Techsters, Kenny Anderson was woeful again from the field - 6 for 19,
but did have 13 assists {twice his per game average}.   Malcolm Mackey was
dominating with 24 points and 17 boards.

17.110Cremins: best coach yesterday for sureSHALOT::MEDVIDNature must still find a wayMon Jan 28 1991 12:1111
    Actually, not taking anything away from Smith's poor coaching, but I
    think the officials had a big part in that Tech victory by allowing
    that last second inbounds in the first half.  That call could have gone
    either way and I was surprised at the way it went considering they were
    in CH, NC.
    
    Oh and did anyone catch Pat O'Brian's little ditty between the
    Pitt/Georgetown game and the UNC/GT game?  He was in UNC's trophey room
    and said, "When you think of UNC, you think of champions."  You do?
    
    	--dan'l
17.111It's anybody's race at this pointRHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Jan 28 1991 12:1815
    Wild and wacky weekend in the ACC.  Consider:
    
    o State lost at Maryland, a team playing without Walt Williams
    
    o Virginia was down by EIGHT (8) points with 1:40 to play at Notre
      Dame, and won in regulation!  (If there was ever any doubt Digger
      should get fired, this sealed any doubt for me.)
    
    o Carolina was upset at home, blowing a 16-point second half lead.
    
    There are now 5 teams (Tech, Duke, State, Carolina, and Virginia)
    tied in the loss column for first place.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.112ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSYJust what did N. Fouquet know?Mon Jan 28 1991 12:5612
    Nice job by 'Snuff.  I missed the end, flipping off the set figuring
    "no way cain even the redoubtable Smif' blow this one, what with a
    bench deeper than the San Juan Trench, a 16 point lead, and a Tech
    team huffing and puffing with exhaustion."
    
    Wrong.
    
    Cain it be ol' Preacher Main is tuning up for his annual NCAA tourney
    display?  Btw, is my Trinitron going bad or is Dean's face covered 
    with spots?
    
    Big10 Tom 
17.113ACC roundupSHALOT::HUNTGulf War = Iraqi Horror Picture ShowMon Jan 28 1991 13:4118
    Briant Stith scored Virginia's final 19 points to overcome the Notre
    Dame eight-point cushion.   Go Hoos.
    
    I was very much surprised at State's loss to Maryland.  I had Maryland
    dead and buried after losing Walt Williams.   Looks like the only ACC
    team with a foot in the grave is defending champ Clemson.  Breaks my
    heart.
    
    Duke goes as Bobby Hurley goes.   Has anyone noticed that Duke loses on
    the road to teams with better point guards ???   They lost to Virginia
    with John Crotty and State with Chris Corchiani.   Look for them to get
    singed, burned, and torched when they visit Georgia Tech.
    
    Dean Smith never ceases to amaze.  Now he's even blowing them at home
    in his very own personal building.  I almost want the guy to stick
    around as long as he wants to.
    
    Bob Hunt
17.114SACT41::ROSSWho dares to mock me?Mon Jan 28 1991 14:118
Is Kenny Anderson playing himself out of a lottery pick?   Would you 
agree that his stock has dropped since the end of last year?  

Anyone else see Matt Geiger literally throw Kenny into a UNC player who
was shooting a layup while Anderson had his back to the play?  Kenny
gave Geiger a look like "you will never see the ball again!"    


17.115Needed a time out *BADLY*, but pride got in the way. :^(RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Jan 28 1991 14:4411
    Funny how I didn't hear any Dean-bashing after our double OT "W" on the
    road at Virginia.
    
    In any case Deano did pull a blunder.  We desperately needed a TO
    during Tech's 20-3 run, but he's philosophically against this.  (Sez he
    should be able to teach his players well enough so they don't need a
    time out.)  In any case we ended up calling a time out anyway, but not
    until we were losing the game.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.116Tarhole pride = 1 in the loss columnSHALOT::MEDVIDNature must still find a wayMon Jan 28 1991 16:059
>         -< Needed a time out *BADLY*, but pride got in the way. :^( >-
    
    Pride doesn't win games.  
    
    I love how this is a loss because of pride and not poor coaching,
    though.  Ever think of running for office, Chris?  You're spewing 
    opinion-altering propaganda just like our own government. 8-)
    
    	--dan'l
17.117Dean couldn't quite pull it offSHALOT::HUNTGulf War = Iraqi Horror Picture ShowMon Jan 28 1991 16:4018
17.118Saddam would be proud of you dan'lRHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Jan 28 1991 17:3215
Let me ask which of the following more closely resembles propaganda:

1. Dean made a mistake in yesterdays game because his pride got in the
   way of calling a TO during Tech's 20-3 run.

2. Dean Smith is a poor coach.

(Let me give you a hint: it's not number 1.  By definition propaganda
 is an attempt to win people over to their position.  I wasn't offering
 a position, just an objective analysis.)

HTH,

- ACC Chris
    
17.119'Every so often'?! More like 'Almost always'.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Jan 28 1991 17:4537
    > Dean did everything he could to blow that game, too.  
    
    Nothing like some good old-fashioned objectivity I say!  (As opposed to
    the 'propaganda' dan'l accuses me of.)
    
    > hot hand, George Lynch, out for critical moments.   
    
    Lynch played almost the entire 2nd half as well as both the overtimes. 
    Apparently you don't understand what 'critical moments' are.
    
    > He let Rick Fox play way too long with four fouls and it eventually 
    > burned him.
    
    Nice try, but Fox fouled out with barely any time left in the game. 
    I suppose you would've saved him for overtime, huh.
    
    > And then he must have used that "pride" thing to tell Eric Montross to
    > heave that inbounds pass clear on up to the peanut vendor thus
    > allowing Virginia a final shot instead.
    
    Yup, Dean 'bad coached' that pass, just like he 'bad coaches' every
    missed shot and turnover.  There's a difference between physical
    mistakes that a coach has no control over and coaching blunders.
    
    If you want to see an example of good coaching, take a look at the end 
    of the Tech game.  With 3 seconds left and the entire court to traverse, 
    we got a layup.  If not for an unfriendly home clock-keeper the game
    woulda gone into OT.  There's not a coach in the country who prepares
    his team better for end-of-game situations than Dean.
    
    > It's catching up with him now.
    
    Just like it's caught up with him for all 702 wins Ketch.  (That's an
    *average* of 25 a year for 30 years, in case you're interested ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.120and now for something completely differentCNTROL::CHILDSWhen love rears up it's ugly haidMon Jan 28 1991 17:4615
Let me re- ask which of the following more closely resembles propaganda:

1. Dean made a mistake in yesterdays game because his pride got in the
   way of calling a TO during Tech's 20-3 run.

2. Dean Smith is a good coach.


 both if you ask me. Pride is subjective. That Dean is a bad coach is a 
 given, good is the belief of a fanatical right wing group located in NC.     

 ;^)

mike
17.121If this were a test Mike, you'd get an 'F'.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Jan 28 1991 17:5213
    I'll grant you number 1 is subjective Mike, but keep in mind I'm
    offering *criticism* here!  If I'm spewing propaganda I sure have
    strange tactics.
    
    Also keep in mind that just because a statement is subjective does not
    mean it's propaganda.  My comments were made in light of an analysis of
    the game, based on my knowledge of Dean.  Saying that 'Dean is a poor
    coach.' is intellectually dishonest, but par for the course around
    here.
    
    :^(
    
    - ACC Chris
17.122UnbelievableSHALOT::HUNTGulf War = Iraqi Horror Picture ShowMon Jan 28 1991 18:0721
    And saying that Deam Smith didn't call a time out because he was too
    damn proud to admit his team needed one is 100% pure blinded devotion.  
    Like a lamb to slaughter.
    
    And he calls *me* a bigot ...
    
    Geez, Soup, give it a rest one time, willya ???
    
    Smif' flubbed the time out non-call for any number of perfectly
    legitimate reasons.  Number one, of course, being that he's a human
    being and like everyone else is prone to making mistakes.   Hell, maybe
    the lights got in his eyes or something.   Or maybe he was having Jimmy
    Carter-style lustful visions of the cheerleaders or something.
    
    But to say that he was too proud of his philosophy to call one is just
    plain silly and doesn't advance your "Dean is God" cause one inch.   I
    admire your tenacity and determination to grunt-heave-push this giant
    rock of yours on top of all of us but, after a while, the admiration
    turns to laughter.   Beaucoup buckets of tears.
    
    Bob Hunt
17.123Send your resume to Pravda, they're looking for helpSHALOT::MEDVIDNature must still find a wayMon Jan 28 1991 18:1719
    From .121:
    
>    Also keep in mind that just because a statement is subjective does not
>    mean it's propaganda.  My comments were made in light of an analysis of
>    the game, based on my knowledge of Dean.  
    
    From .119:
    
>    If not for an unfriendly home clock-keeper the game
>    woulda gone into OT.  There's not a coach in the country who prepares
>    his team better for end-of-game situations than Dean.
    
    So based on your knowledge of Dean, how come they lost yesterday?  Oh,
    must have been that clock keeper pressing the "SPEED UP" button.  Keep
    it coming.  Maybe you and Dean can be on at halftime next Super Bowl.
    
    8-)
    
    	--dan'l
17.124If Pravda reports the truth, so be it.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Jan 28 1991 18:5113
    I'm having a hard time understanding why or how you two aren't
    interpreting my analysis of Dean's non-call on the TO yesterday as
    criticism.  It *IS* criticism!  I said he shoulda called it.  In
    hindsight he knows he shoulda called it.  His motivations for *not*
    calling it were based on pride, IMO, but so what?  It was a bad
    non-move, plain and simple.  Same thing happened in the '81 finals.  IU
    got off to a quick run in the 2nd half.  Dean waited for the TV timeout
    and by then it was too late.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
17.125No excuses, just explanations.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Jan 28 1991 18:5820
    BTW, we did NOT lose yesterdays game because of the clock-keeper or
    the refs.  When you're up 16 in the 2nd half at home you've gotta win
    the game.  Reasons for the loss were three-fold, IMO:
    
    1. Failure to call TO during Tech's 20-3 run.  The team on the floor
       at the time was young.  We needed the TO either to insert fresh
       personnel or calm the kids down.
    
    2. Lousy to horrendous defense in the 2nd half.  Breakdowns were
       everywhere.  Tech continually got easy shots inside which were
       often accompanied by Carolina fouls.  In addition Geiger and
       Mackey were out-muscling us, and that simply shouldn't happen.
    
    3. Poor offensive execution.  Not a single Georgia Tech player fouled
       out, which is a sign we weren't going inside.  This was a very
       bad mistake, especially in light of the fact that we weren't shooting
       the ball well from the outside.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.126curioserHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughMon Jan 28 1991 19:3913
re: .124

>    ... I said he shoulda called it.  In
>    hindsight he knows he shoulda called it.  His motivations for *not*
>    calling it were based on pride, IMO, but so what?  It was a bad
>    non-move, plain and simple.  Same thing happened in the '81 finals.  IU
>    got off to a quick run in the 2nd half.  Dean waited for the TV timeout
>    and by then it was too late.

What we have here is no longer a debate of whether Dean chokes or not,
but rather an analysis of *HOW* he chokes.

TTOM
17.127QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Mon Jan 28 1991 19:4013
17.128ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSYGeneMauch,MarvLevy,DeanSmithMon Jan 28 1991 20:0212
    >2.  Dean Smith is a poor coach.
    
    Hear hear !!  It's gratifying to see you maturing, coming of age as
    a_analyst, Chris.  Kudos, babes.  At last we cain agree on something,
    cuz 'Snuffy Smif' *is* a poor coach, by Pantheon standards, at least.
    
    And how 'bout the part about the "unfriendly home timekeeper."  That
    was funny!  Btw, if a_active sports persona is inducted into a HoF,
    cain he play or coach his way right on out the door with wretched 
    performances?
    
    Big10 Tom
17.129STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishTue Jan 29 1991 11:3613
    
    Too facks to add to the fire.....
    
    1)  Dean Smith's record in 1 point games is 22-24.
    
    2)  First words out of Dean Smith's mouth after winning the NCAA
        championship after a gift from Fred Brown were:
    
    		" I was outcoached tonight...... "
    
    Outcoached by John Thompson????
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :-)
17.130i got that one awright ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewTue Jan 29 1991 14:063
    HAA HA HA HO TOOFUNNYHOHO HAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!
    
    Big10 Tom
17.131Tech was there too, ya knowWMOIS::REEVE_CTue Jan 29 1991 16:1531
    There is another perspective in the UNC loss that hasn't yet been
    mentioned with all the "Dean choked" garbage. Tech played a helluva
    game in the second half. They put their green but talented front court
    to good use for a change. Tech controlled the boards in the second half
    and got their offense clicking. They came back from 16 down in the
    second half on the road against the #7 team in the country, so let's
    give the athletes that won the game on the floor a little credit,
    instead of bashing the coaches.
    
    Besides, the worst coaching move of the night was Cremins calling timeout
    with 3 seconds left and a 2 pt lead. That allowed UNC to save their final
    timeout to move the ball to halfcourt and set a higher percentage play
    than they could possibly have gotten from full court.
    
    The call at the end of the first half was proper. The replay clearly
    showed the ball bouncing on the floor out of bounds and the refs
    whistle blew with :01 on the clock. Again, let's give credit to Tech
    for running an excellent play to get an easy layup in :01.
    
    Road wins in the ACC are tough to come by and often result in winning
    the regular season title. Tech took a huge step with this win. They
    have gotten better progressively (Duke was an Aberration) and are in
    good shape for the sprint to the end.
    
    Re Kenny Anderson- last I looked he was averaging 29 ppg, 7 assists,
    and about 4 rebounds per game. Not too shabby considering that he is
    generally doubled as soon as he toches the ball. Tech really got their
    offense in gear against UNC when Jon Barry began bringing the ball
    upcourt, freeing Kenny to roam.
    
    GT(National Champions) Chris
17.132I still think a TO during the Tech run would've got us a W.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportTue Jan 29 1991 17:2713
    Agreed Chris, Tech should get proper credit for an outstanding "W".  
    
    But I gotta ask ya a hypothetical question:
    
    If the refs incorrectly allow the final shot by Fox and Carolina goes
    on to win in OT, how loud do you bellyache, given Tech's gift of a year
    ago against MSU?!
    
    (I asked this hypothetical question to my TechHaid brother and all's I
    got were mumbles and obfuscation!)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.133Ga Tech over Duke ???SHALOT::HUNTGulf War = Iraqi Horror Picture ShowTue Jan 29 1991 17:509
 Look for Ga Tech to crush Duke this Wednesday night.   
 
 There's the revenge factor for the 40-point blowout earlier this year at
 Cameron but there's also the Hurley Factor, that is, Duke sips big time
 when they play a conference team on the road with a better point guard.
 
 Kenny Anderson may not be God but he's light years ahead of Hurley.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.134Hurley's a competitor - no guaranteed win for Tech ...RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportTue Jan 29 1991 18:0711
    If all goes according to plan I'll be courtside for the Tech-Duke game
    tomorrow night.  My TechHaid brother has promised to deliver 
    tickets for us ...
    
    I disagree with your Hurley analysis Ketch, and I think Duke could very
    well come away with a "W", although I hope not.  Hurley is capable of
    doing too many good things (along with his usual long list of bad
    things) to make such a categoric generalization.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.135I ain't no bellyacreWMOIS::REEVE_CTue Jan 29 1991 18:1316
    re .132
    
    The buzzer nonbeater against MSU was a gift from on high and I've never
    said otherwise. However, Tech went on to dominate the OT and won
    easily. Had UNC done the same, I would have been distraught, but not
    raving. Actually, Tech deserved to have the shot by Fox count for
    stupidly calling the TO and for not cutting off the baseline.
    
    Officiating was an important factor in this game because it was
    lopsided by 2-1 in UNC's favor, when they normally get about a 4-1
    lopsided advantage in the Dean Dong ;^)
    
    Does the fact that there was a bad call almost a year ago have any
    bearing on the fact that there were no bad calls in this game?
    
    GT(#1) Chris
17.136Soup disputes facts; film not necessarySHALOT::HUNTGulf War = Iraqi Horror Picture ShowTue Jan 29 1991 19:1422
17.137Bad logic Bob.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportTue Jan 29 1991 19:3117
    Your analysis is like a blind date that's a 100% fox when you meet
    her but then picks her nose and belches during dinner.  In other
    words, looks great at first, but leaves much to be desired upon closer
    examination.  (Actually I stole that analogy from last nights Murphy
    Brown - truly one of the funnier shows on the tube at the moment ...)
    
    Anyways I don't see enough evidence to support your claim.  True, Duke
    lost both games, but drawing your conclusion seems a bit preliminary to
    me.  (I don't have the stats, but I recall Corchiani only had 12 points
    in the Duke/State game.)
    
    You can count on Hurley to play pretty solid defense.  His offense is
    spastic and his turnovers come in droves, but as long as he's holding
    up his end defensively Duke can win on the road against anybody.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.138downratingHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughTue Jan 29 1991 19:5415
>    You can count on Hurley to play pretty solid defense.  

His defense consists entirely of the classic "fall down and the refs
think you drew the charge" and attempting to slap the ball out of the
opponents hands before they go up and over him. If these two gestures
don't work, which is most of the time, his defense is anything but solid.
Nor is he "holding up his end".

No problems with the assessment on offense and turnovers.

But as point guards go, you have to rate him below Anderson, Corchianni,
and Crotty. He's on the same level as King Rice, who played him even at
Duke and you heard it hear first, will outplay him at the Dean Dome.

TTom
17.139Let's get it writing so there'll be plenty of crow to share ...RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Jan 30 1991 12:158
    re: .-1
    
    You then concur with the results of BobHunt's tightly wound algorithm,
    which states that Duke *cannot* win on the road against a team with a
    quality PG?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.140Wahoo Scandal!HBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughWed Jan 30 1991 12:3317
It seems a scandal has been uncovered at Virginia. Like it's sister 
schools, Notre Dame and No Carolina, UVa has usually managed to supress  
information that may not reflect favorably on the university. Lou Holtz 
is doing some serious broken field running with the questions of his 
acitivities at Big 10 member Minnesota. No ones talking about King Rice's 
assault and subsequent secret wrist slap. And now, the Virginia pep band 
stands accused of killing Elvis at half time of the Sugar Bowl!

Seriously folks, we've got trouble. Right here in Charlottesville, we've 
got trouble. Apparently many found their half time routine which climaxed 
with the band making a flesh pile on top of an Elvis impersonator. The 
announcer declared Elvis officially dead.

I guess Tennessee, down 16-0 at half, probably weren't sporting much of a
sense of humor.

TTom
17.141Whatever ...SHALOT::HUNTGulf War = Iraqi Horror Picture ShowWed Jan 30 1991 14:3120
17.142The UVA Marching Chowder Society And Pep BandSHALOT::HUNTGulf War = Iraqi Horror Picture ShowWed Jan 30 1991 14:4534
17.143Not one of your better efforts Ketch ...RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Jan 30 1991 14:4918
    re: .-1
    
    I have no problem using your 'past performance as predictor of
    future results' in regards to Duke having troubles on the road.
    Course that could be said for any team in the ACC right now, so it's
    hardly significant or interesting.
    
    My objection stems from laying it on Hurley.  There's hardly precedent
    for this - in fact, I'd say quite the opposite is true.  (Corchiani
    only scored 12 on him @ State; he led Duke to the Final 4 last year,
    beating, among others, a UConn team *loaded* at the guard position.)
    
    BTW, UVa laid a *terrible* beating on State last night, trouncing them
    by 30+ points.  (Must be State's backcourt - cain't play on da road
    ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.144CNTROL::CHILDSWhen love rears up it's ugly haidWed Jan 30 1991 15:0212
    
>    My objection stems from laying it on Hurley.  There's hardly precedent
>    for this - in fact, I'd say quite the opposite is true.  (Corchiani
>    only scored 12 on him @ State; he led Duke to the Final 4 last year,
>    beating, among others, a UConn team *loaded* at the guard position.)


 When your point guard averages less than 2-1 on his assists/turnover
 ratio then he should receive a big deal of the blame. It could also
 be said that Duke made it to the final 4 last year inspite of Hurley.

 mike
17.145RejectionITASCA::SHAUGHNESSYJust what did N. Fouquet know?Wed Jan 30 1991 15:157
    >When your point guard averages less than 2-1 on his assists/turnover
    >ratio then he should receive... blame.
    
    Sorry Mike.  Dan disallowed this concept some time ago (Kenny Smif').
    Said it made too much sense.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.146Separating fact from fiction on Bobby Hurley.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Jan 30 1991 16:1843
    Here's some objective information on Bob Hurley, courtesy of this weeks
    Poop Sheet.
    
    First and foremost, he's *leading* the ACC in Assists, with 8.2 a game.
    Mike claims he has a 2/1 assist/turnover ratio.  I find that difficult
    to believe, but I don't have his current turnover number.  If it's
    more than 4, I'll be AMAZED.
    
    Now for some commentary.  (BTW, the Poop Sheet is extremely sluggish in
    its compliments of players, and it's extremely non-biased.  Can't
    afford to be, what with each subscriber loathing at least a couple of
    the teams covered!)
    
    "At Maryland, Hurley exploded for a career-high 26 points, on 10-of-15
    (5-for-8 3-pointers) shooting and 10 assists.  The 6-0 sophomore had
    played stellar defense on Kenny Anderson in the Tech game, while adding
    13 points and nine assists."
    
    (FYI, the Maryland game was on the road, and the Terps PG is Walt
    Williams, who I'll guarantee will be in the NBA someday.)
    
    More ...
    
    "Hurley had 14 points, eight assists, and one turnover in Duke's 89-67
    win over Wake Forest.  The point guard has clearly answered the
    challenge of playing the ACC's top guards after a dismal showing in
    Charlottesville.  Hurley shot one of eight in that game with six
    assists and 8 turnovers -- one of the worst games of his career."
    
    (Clearly, BobHunt has taken *one* bad game by Hurley and translated
    that into a_ill-advised algorithm of doom for the kid.)
    
    Here's more ...
    
    "Nonetheless, Hurley now hits nearly 40% of his threes and leads Duke
    in 3-point field goals.  He has become an inspirational floor leader
    and has stepped up his offensive production from a year ago.  He's the
    team's third-leading scorer, averaging around 13 points per game."
    
    Nuf said.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.147not tHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughWed Jan 30 1991 17:078
Yeah, State got spanked on the raod. They stink on the road and
Corchianni is sometimes the leading stinkee. 

However, when citing the Corchianni-Hurley matchup, the 12 pts hardly
reflects how much Hurley was outplayed. First of all, his 18 points were
all from 3-points: no points taking it to the hole, no free throws, etc.

TTom
17.148FSOA::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Wed Jan 30 1991 17:238
    I just love it when you guys fight like that, it msure makes SPORTS
    enjoyable to read.  Duke will win tonight and Hurley will play like an
    MVP.  Biased opinion naturally.
    
    GO DUKE!!!!
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
    
17.149All modesty aside .... ;^)RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Jan 30 1991 17:277
    re: .-1
    
    Clearly, D-boy, the ACC note is consistently the most intewesting and fun
    in SPORTS.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.150CNTROL::CHILDSWhen love rears up it's ugly haidWed Jan 30 1991 17:4815
Let see it was probably the Duke/GT game that I was watching when they
said that on the year Hurley had 93 assists and 58 turnovers for a less
than 2-1 ratio. Given that that was probably around game 10 to 15 for
Duke it would put his assist totals at around 8 a game or so, and turnovers
at 4 to 5 a game...For once I'm using stats and not my own POPB....

My own POPB says he stinks and you are holding up as a becon because he's
the one point guard in the conference that Rice compares to as an equal.
Ok by me cause they both bite....

Did Walt Williams play in that Maryland game? Isn't he hurt?

mike

17.151SACT41::ROSSRugby! I need more rugby!Wed Jan 30 1991 19:0211
And I know Hurley was at or near ten turnovers against UNC... with about
an equal number of assists.

2 to 1 would be average.   1 to 1 would be terrible.   

I think it's Jamaal Meeks of Indiana was near 4 to 1 not too long ago.
And Muggsy Bogues of the Hornets must be near that too.

Which brings up another question:

	Where can I get individual player stats for college teams?  
17.152FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, MRO1, DTN 297-2623 (eff 2/11)Wed Jan 30 1991 19:1615
    I don't pay much attention but would guess either USA Today or the
    National have the stats for the leading players, but I don't know on
    what day.  Unlike with baseball, there's no comprehensive listing on a
    regular basis that I know of for all players nationwide.  I would
    suggest (seriously) that you write to the NCAA to see if there's any
    sort of weekly newsletter they put out that's available to the public. 
    Since there doesn't seem to be an overwhelming demand for it, I would
    doubt there is one.
    
    One of the end results of fantasy/rotisserie sports is the wider-spread
    dissemination of individual player stats and since college basketball
    doesn't have fantasy leagues (at least that I know of) the numbers
    aren't really widely published.
    
    John
17.153walt out, knorr too?HBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughWed Jan 30 1991 19:2919
re: Walt Williams.

He is out a couple of weeks. Leg or ankle injury, I think. He missed the
State game that Maryland won.

FWIW, Muggsy Bogues led the NBA in the assist to turnover ratio. He was
the only one (some minimum number of assists, I guess) over 5. His real
numbers are almost always right at 10 and 2.

I have no idea where to get every college stats. Local news has the
league leaders for ACC.

One more thing. Knorr mentioned the Poop Sheet. Well guess where it's
published. Right: Chapel Hill, NC. Now tell us again about how non-biased
it is. With the zealotry of the Tar Heels, anybody who wants to make
money peddling ACC news has got to be pro Tar Heels. They have a
veritable stranglehold on sports media around here.

TTom
17.154Williams played against Duke, BTW.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Jan 30 1991 19:4113
    You are correct TTom, Poop Sheet is published in Chapel Hill.  In fact,
    former Tar Heel Dennis Wuycik, is the publisher.  That's the good news.
    
    The bad news is the Poop Sheet is without question rough on Carolina. 
    This week they pick 'em apart in both the cover story detailing the
    league race and the in-depth column covering the team.  
    
    And I will repeat:  The Poop Sheet is fair and objective, although,
    IMHO, it's overly negative on Carolina.  (Let's remember though that
    the current issue at hand is Bobby Hurley, *NOT* UNC!)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.155players faultHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughWed Jan 30 1991 19:459
The Poop Sheet being rough on the current Tar Heels is about like the Tar
Heels booing King Rice. You gotta love that the so called faithful are
already uneasy with the performance of this team and the Fab Five
Freshmen. And it's typical that the Tar Heels ascribe the problems to the
players and not to Dean.

I'll reread the Poop Sheet article mentioned.

TTom
17.156SACT41::ROSSRugby! I need more rugby!Wed Jan 30 1991 19:5116
Chris,

Assessment time:

	Are you happy with the performance of what was considered the
	number one recruiting class in the country last year, and {by some}
	of the last decade?   How about Montross specifically?  I believe
	you pegged him at around 10 points/5 boards a game pre-season... 
	{I may be wrong}

	Do you think George Lynch and Hubert Davis get enough PT?

	Do you like to see Henrik Rodl on the floor?   

	Where does top recruit Henry Williams fit into the system next
	year?
17.157Unlike baseball, basketball is not an equal opportunity endeavor...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Jan 30 1991 20:0530
> FWIW, Muggsy Bogues led the NBA in the assist to turnover ratio. He was
> the only one (some minimum number of assists, I guess) over 5. His real
> numbers are almost always right at 10 and 2.
    
    A pure assist-to-turnover ratio isn't going to tell you the whole
    story on a point guard.  The first thing you've got to know is what the
    break-even ratio is (where the net gain from an assist cancels the net
    loss from a turnover).  Then you've got to look at the gross stats to
    determine the total net gain/loss for the player.
    
    Let's say the break-even is 1.5, where an assist counts for a point and
    a turnover for a loss of a point and a half.  The player who makes 12 
    assists a game and commits 4 turnovers (3:1) nets his team six points 
    where the player who makes 8 assists and 2 turnovers (4:1) nets only 
    five.  Add to this the fact that the player with the higher numbers 
    is probably more aggressive and is depended on to make more (and more
    difficult) plays where he's not permitted to pick his spots at the
    expense of the team, and the high-volume guy is probably the better
    player, in spite of the higher turnover ratio.
    
    Once you've also factored in points scored (why should a good shooter 
    be penalized for cutting out the middleman and a possible turnover or
    missed shot by scoring himself?) and the number of opportunities 
    (accounting for offensive inflation at the expense of defense a la 
    Denver/LMU), and it becomes evident that it's pretty difficult to take 
    a good measure of a player with a single, simple stat.
    
    glenn
      
17.158Objective Analysis, 101RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Jan 30 1991 20:0935
    It ain't Henry Williams Ross, it's Donald Williams, and he's widely
    considered the #1 WG prospect in the USA.
    
    Speaking of which, Donald Williams himself writes an article in this 
    weeks Poop Sheet detailing his decision-making process and all the 
    recruiting that went on.  (If I were you TTom, I'd skip that article. 
    Might be a tad painful!  Heh heh!!)
    
    I think it's way too premature to evaluate our freshmen.  After all,
    they *are* freshmen.  In years gone by, they wouldn't even be eligible
    yet.  I will say that I see tremendous potential in each-and-every one
    of 'em.  
    
    Dean has been caught between a rock and a hard place this year.  The
    youngsters haven't come around quickly - Deano himself said on his TV
    show he keeps waiting for one of them to really step forward.  So far,
    nada.  
    
    All of which should highlights what a terrific year Pete Chilcutt and
    King Rice are having.  Chilcutt has been terrific - 10rpg; 18.7ppg. 
    Plus some clutch play.  Rice has really pulled his game together. 
    After a horrid start he's only commited 13 turnovers in 10 games.  His
    scoring is up; his assists are up.  
    
    Biggest disapointment so far hasn't been the frosh though - it's been
    Rick Fox.  This guy's supposed to be our scoring leader.  In sum, he
    hasn't delivered the goods!  
    
    Still a long way to go in this season though.  Fox could turn it around
    and one of the Fab Five could step forward.  It's gonna have to happen
    for UNC to challenge for the ACC Title.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.159AmazingSHALOT::HUNTGulf War = Iraqi Horror Picture ShowWed Jan 30 1991 20:4334
17.160Enjoy your "victory", SoupSHALOT::HUNTGulf War = Iraqi Horror Picture ShowThu Jan 31 1991 02:2111
    Kenny Anderson had 32 points, 7 rebounds, and set a new school record
    with 8 steals.
    
    Bobby Hurley had 5 points on 2 of 11 shooting from the field.
    
    Yet Duke won 77-75 on a buzzer beater layup.  Hurley had the winning
    assist.  Duke is 6-2 in conference and Tech is 5-3.
    
    Good night, time to hit the sack.
    
    Bob Hunt
17.161I hate it when I'm rightRHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Jan 31 1991 11:166
    No victory for me Ketch - I was pulling for Tech.  Anderson was unreal
    last night, and yet his missed free throw at the end was utterly
    devastating.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.162part of the systemHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughThu Jan 31 1991 11:2913
>    Biggest disapointment so far hasn't been the frosh though - it's been
>    Rick Fox.  This guy's supposed to be our scoring leader.  In sum, he
>    hasn't delivered the goods!  

Gosh, I've never seen this happen at Chapel Hill! 

I mean every time the guy shoots he looks at the bench to see if he's
being headed to the pine. See, it's another "rock and hard place": Dean
may yank Fox if he misses it or makes it. At No Carolina, Dean benches
players who hit shots that are not part of the system. Even if you make
them often. Even if it's your shot. It's that way or you don't play.

TTom
17.163SACT41::ROSSRugby! I need more rugby!Thu Jan 31 1991 12:078
That was the best game I've seen Kenny Anderson play in a long time.... He
looked all-world last night.   {shot 12-21}

This Tech team may be a tough one later in the season.   Malcom Mackey is
coming into his own... Geiger as well.  And Jon Barry is a heady player.

UNC plays Clemson tonight.  Clemson is the worst team in the ACC.  A 20
point spread should be in order.
17.164Bobby Hurley: Circus clown in sneakersSHALOT::MEDVIDNot another KuwaitnamThu Jan 31 1991 12:1230
>    Bobby Hurley had 5 points on 2 of 11 shooting from the field.
    
    And looked godawful in the process (though the last pass was a great
    one).  Anderson ate him alive, chewed him up, and spit on him.  Two
    classics that stick with me are:
    
    	- Anderson drives around Hurley.  While Hurley is still looking 
    	  at where Anderson was, Kenny is five feet around him and 
    	  Laettner picks up his 4th (which was a terrible call)
    	
    	- Hurley is guarding Anderson to the point of being toe to toe
    	  and grabbing his jersey.  Anderson just dribbles right around
    	  him.  
    
    Were you there, Chris?  Thought I saw you.  Yellow and black suit...big
    grin...antanae? 8-)
    
    The officiating was terrible.  Worse than Big East officiating for a
    change.  My basic complaint is that they called a lot of crucial touch
    fouls and totally went whistleless on some slammers.
    
    RE: Dean's Coaches Show
    
    WBTV in Charlotte pre-empted the first half hour of the Georgetown Pitt
    game Saturday to show it.  All the more reason to hate Smith and the
    Tarholes.
    
    	--dan'l
    
    
17.165Zeroing in on TruthRHETT::KNORRAnderson wins battle;Hurley wins warThu Jan 31 1991 12:1516
    re: TTom  (part of the system)
    
    Okay, I'll fight this battle on your turf.  
    
    Assuming it's true that 'The System' is forcing Fox to miss all those
    open J's, isn't also true that 'The System' dictates that seniors are
    gonna get the majority of the PT?  (Given that Fox is averaging over 30
    minutes per game, I'd say this is true, System or no System.)
    
    Fox knows he's gonna play - there's no looking over the shoulder on his
    part.  He's just not shooting the ball well right now.  Hopefully he'll
    turn things around before the NBA Draft, or it's gonna hurt him,
    bucks-wise.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.166ACC Chris a non-invitee to last nights ThrillerDome partyRHETT::KNORRAnderson wins battle;Hurley wins warThu Jan 31 1991 12:218
    No, I wadn't thare.  (Many :^('s)
    
    My brother calls me yesterday afternoon and tells me he's taking a
    client to the game.  I think he felt bad though when he heard sobs and
    sniffles on the other end of the line.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.167SACT41::ROSSCaught up in 'As DEC Turns'Thu Jan 31 1991 12:304
>I think he felt bad though when he heard sobs and
>    sniffles on the other end of the line.

Doing your "Dean Smith post-NCAA Tournament" impression again, Chris?
17.168SHALOT::MEDVIDNot another KuwaitnamThu Jan 31 1991 12:316
>   <<< Note 17.166 by RHETT::KNORR "Anderson wins battle;Hurley wins war" >>>
    
    I think you need to modify that P_Name to 
    	
    	'Duke's bench wins war; Hurley missing in action'
    
17.169Sorry, but Vitale's one strange dude...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Jan 31 1991 13:1715
    I tuned in to see what all the fuss was about concerning Kenny
    Anderson's demise and he was *fantastic*.  I think Vitale might have
    wet his pants when Kenny went between the legs and behind the back on
    Hurley (who pretty much stuck with him anyway in spite of all the 
    excess motion) before hitting the short jumper.
    
    What was that little diatribe on Hurley from Vitale about "My dad's a
    great coach and he taught me defense but he didn't prepare me to
    defense a Kenny Anderson (babieeee!)..."?  He all but flat out called 
    Hurley a whiner judging by the intonation in his voice.  Has Vitale 
    shown this particular disposition towards Hurley before?
    
    glenn
       
17.170More ...SHALOT::HUNTBlessed are the peacemakers ...Thu Jan 31 1991 13:4321
    Vitale goes nuts like that whenever he gets a chance.  Everyone says
    he's got the best insight, knows the recruiting scene better than
    anyone, and injects the most enthusiasm into the game.   To me he's the
    reason to reach for the mute button.
    
    He epitomizes, to me, the adage that those who can't play become
    coaches.   And those that can't coach become announcers.   Those that
    can't announce sell insurance.   Vitale is a step away from a State
    Farm office.
    
    He loves Kenny Anderson and concerning the move you mentioned that he
    went especially ga-ga over, I thought it was rather ho-hum routine for
    the "greatest point guard ever".   Between the legs, around the back,
    stop and pop.    Big deal.  I'll bet he's done that one about six or
    seven thousand times on the playground against guys a *LOT* tougher
    than Babby Hurley.
    
    Hurley is a whiner.  He's a coach's kid so the whining comes naturally.  
    It's part of his game.
    
    Bob Hunt
17.171CHIEFF::CHILDSWhen love rears up it's ugly haidThu Jan 31 1991 13:5810
 Glenn, in general Dicky goes ga-ga over Hurley except when he plays
 Dicky's number 1 player in the universe Kenny....Unlike Doug, myself
 and the just about the rest of the free world if all players were 
 available this draft, Dicky would pass on the Shack and take Kenny.

 Great analogy Bob, I hope the State Farm days start soon!!!!!!!!


 mike
17.172NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Jan 31 1991 14:0413
    
 > and the just about the rest of the free world if all players were 
 > available this draft, Dicky would pass on the Shack and take Kenny.
    
    Well, I'm not sure of this one.  I heard Vitale have a serious "Shack
    Attack" earlier this year on ABC when Shaquille threw down a dunk in
    garbage time.  Combined with Keith Jackson (who somehow just doesn't
    seem to be able to keep up with the action out of his natural element 
    of the gridiron), I thought that coverage of college basketball on 
    the networks had just taken one giant step backwards.
    
    glenn
    
17.173CHIEFF::CHILDSWhen love rears up it's ugly haidThu Jan 31 1991 14:5013
 Glenn, if a stiff like Eric Montross threw down a rimbreaker, Vitale would
 have tight shuddering experience. I base my belief that he would pass on
 the Shack because a. Dicky loves little guys who are players and the fact
 that he has proclaimed Kenny the greatest point guard ever when the kid hasn't
 even step on an NBA court. He also feed us the disclaimer that Magic isn't a
 point guard in this comparision cause he can play all five posistions but even
 still to claim that Kenny is already better thans say KJ, Stockton, Isiah,
 Tiny, The Big O etc is ludicrious. He has never claimed Shack to be better
 than Akeem, Pat, the Admiral etc. 

 mike   

17.174FSOA::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Thu Jan 31 1991 15:584
    Hurley stunk last night, but he DID deliver the assist that won the
    game.  Great game.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
17.175LUNER::BROOKSTwentysomething Mutant Ninja HomeboyThu Jan 31 1991 18:4127
    
    re .170
    
>    Vitale goes nuts like that whenever he gets a chance.  Everyone says
>    he's got the best insight, knows the recruiting scene better than
>    anyone, and injects the most enthusiasm into the game.   To me he's the
>    reason to reach for the mute button.
 
    I wasn't one of those "Everyone" people. I usually USE the mute button
    when gets on a spiel. And I'm sick of him raving about tams that have
    "cupcake" scheudles, especially G'Town. Hell, the Big East more than
    makes up for that .... I think his biggest orgasms come when either
    he's praising Kenny, Shaquille, or trashing the Hoyas.
       
>    He epitomizes, to me, the adage that those who can't play become
>    coaches.   And those that can't coach become announcers.   Those that
>    can't announce sell insurance.   Vitale is a step away from a State
>    Farm office.
 
    Funniest line of the year so far. I spit soda all over the place !
    
    Oh yeah, one other thang. Bobby Hurley is the most overhyped, overrated
    player since Steve Alford. Scott Skiles is up there, but he turned out
    to be a decent player in the NBA.
    
    Doc
       
17.176Always predictableSACT41::ROSSCaught up in 'As DEC Turns'Thu Jan 31 1991 18:513
>Bobby Hurley... Steve Alford... Scott Skiles...

Um... let me think... what do they have in common... um....  
17.177Just tryin' to helpRHETT::KNORRAnderson wins battle;Hurley wins warThu Jan 31 1991 18:545
    Just so we all don't get accused of ugly stereotyping, a-la the Duke
    student nerds, cain't we put King Rice in that group?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.178take another lookHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughThu Jan 31 1991 19:0619
re: way back to .165

Let's look at this System another way. Chris, what do you think Rodney
Monroe's average would be if he played for Dean? Fox for Cremins?

I'm not sure what point, if any, you're trying to make about seniors and
PT, but that too is part of the System to the extent that if you're a
designated starter, like Fox, your junior year, you're a starter your
senior year. Dean's been trying to back out of that this year because
he's having such a hard time finding a team.

But if you don't think that Dean supresses natural offensive talent then
one must assume that the likes of Worthy, Walter Davis and Michael
Jorndan musta got a lot better the summer after they left Chapel Hill. A
current classic, even a better example than Fox, is Rozier. Yeah, I've
heard all that nonsense about no D but even when he is on the court for
whatever little time, he never goes to the hole. How do you explain that?

TTom
17.179Apparently Donald Williams agrees with me!RHETT::KNORRAnderson wins battle;Hurley wins warThu Jan 31 1991 19:2220
    PPG is a poor singular metric of a ballplayer.  Better to ask the
    question 'Would (name your favorite ex-Carolina player) be as complete
    a player today if he'd played for (name your favorite non-Carolina
    coach'.
    
    I suspect not everyone will agree with me on the answer to this
    question, but at least we'll be debating the right thing.
    
    > I'm not sure what point, if any, you're trying to make about seniors
    > and PT ...
    
    Simply this.  You blamed 'The System' for Fox shooting poorly this
    year, stating that he's skeered of being benched if he takes a bad
    shot.  Yet according to your own definition of 'The System', seniors
    will play almost irregardless of their performance.
    
    Seems to be a contradiction in your logic ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.180your contradictionHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughThu Jan 31 1991 20:1223
Don't blame me if the system seems like a contradiction. I won't dispute
you on that one.

Fox plays because of the system. Any problem so far. See he was a starter
last year, therefore...

Fox does not shoot well because of the system. That's the first point.
Any problem with that opinion?

>    PPG is a poor singular metric of a ballplayer. 

Now where did I say anything about measuring ballplayers. I addressed
offensive performance.

If you want to measure overall playing, I've already stated that this
team's MVP is Chilcutt but I'd never say he was the "best" player on the
team. In fact, if you gave this same team to a lot of other coaches, Pete
might spend long periods of time on the bench and Rozier might spend long
periods of the court taking it very aggressively to the hole on almost
anyone. In fact, I'd venture a guess that almost every other coach would
add that into their system, if it weren't there already.

TTom
17.181STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishFri Feb 01 1991 10:5814
    >Just so we all don't get accused of ugly stereotyping, a-la the Duke
    >student nerds, cain't we put King Rice in that group?
    
    > ACC Chris
    
    No King Rice was rated by ALL the experts as the top ranked pt. guard
    coming out of H.S.  In fact he was one of the most heavily touted point
    guards to come out(up to that point in the 80's).  Everyone was after
    him.  Dean simply wasted that enormous talent and turned him into the
    typical NC point guard bogged down by the 'system'.  This is not a bash
    on Dean, it's the truth.
    
    Cap(who saw Rice play in H.S.)
    
17.182CHIEFF::CHILDSWhen love rears up it's ugly haidFri Feb 01 1991 11:5810
 For every Michael Jordan, Walter Davis, James Worthy that came out of UNC
 a more rounded player there is a JR Reid, Brad Daugherty, Kenny Smith etc.
 So it's my belief that the first group took the best parts of the system
 and incorparated them into their game. The later group never learnt a thing
 from the system which doesn't speak highly for one who' s supposed to be 
 such a teacher of young men. Just like Video killed the radio star, the
 shot clock killed the Deano star....

 mike
17.183If Clemson doesn't beat Maryland they'll go 0-14RHETT::KNORRAnderson wins battle;Hurley wins warFri Feb 01 1991 12:2922
    Sloppy win for Carolina last night.  Clemson is DOWN this year, with a
    capital "D".  Thoroughly outmanned.  Their guards are *scary*, they're
    so bad.  
    
    Rick Fox bounced back from a bad shooting spell and tied a career high. 
    Maybe he's pulled out of his shooting slump.  (Dean wasn't overly
    thrilled with his play though.  In the post-game press conference he
    sez he got on Rick for a turnover and then he went out and committed a
    couple more!)
    
    But the biggest encouragement to me was the play of the freshmen. 
    Rozier played, IMO, the best game of his career.  He scored, rebounded,
    blocked shots.  This kid can play.  Hopefully Dean will respond with
    more PT.  And while it won't show in the box score, Montross showed
    promise.  Much more aggressive and confident out there.  Took it to the
    hoop with authority.  Phelps played well also.
    
    The Fab Five may be disapointing to the press this year, but I'll tell
    ya there are some good years ahead for this group.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.184SACT41::ROSSCaught up in 'As DEC Turns'Fri Feb 01 1991 12:4416
From what I saw {first half only}, King Rice was playing some of his best
ball offensively... Taking it quick and hard to the hoop for some tough
layups.   Why he doesn't do that more often is beyond me, unless it has to
do with the quality of the Clemson guards {who were just slightly better than
Purdue's }.

I bet Dale Davis would've gone pro last year if he knew what was in store
for this season.   Davis must have the lowest % of body fat of any player 
I've seen.   Unfortunately, none of the Tiger guards can get him the ball.

Re: Montross showing good things...

C'mon, Chris... The highest rated frosh center in the country should be scoring
at least 10 ppg and grabbing 8 boards.     Damon Bailey's scoring 19, 21 
points in games lately.  Rodney Rogers at Wake is putting up big numbers.  
Eric Montross should not be a project.    Who's the problem, Dean or Eric?
17.185DNC at LittlejohnHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughFri Feb 01 1991 13:2410
A big Did Not Cover last night for the Tar Heels. Clemson had the right
game plan - bombs away from the outside. Dean won't adjust to that.
Unfortunately, to win doing this you have to be able to hit the shots.

Rice looked good taking it to the hole. I didn't know this was part of
the offense.

Chris, when's the Tar Heels next non-conference games? 

TTom
17.186Ross wants worst of both worlds, where Carolina is concernedRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 01 1991 14:0524
    Carolina only has one (1) non-conference game left.  It's at home
    against The Citadel, Monday, 2/18.  
    
    IMO Jim Valvano is the #1 college hoops color commentator.  He's truly 
    an entertaining man, and not-too-dumb hoops-wise either.
    
    As to Rice's hoops not being part of 'The System', you musta missed one
    of Jimmy V's 'Pieces of the Puzzle', one of which was TRANSITION.
    
    re: Ross
    
    First we have T-hypocrisy (tm) from TTom, now you.  Correct me if I'm 
    wrong, but weren't you the one who noted that Montross was slow, 
    cumbersome, and generally overrated?  Now you say he's playing poorly 
    because of bad coaching.
    
    Which one is it?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
    
    
17.187SACT41::ROSSI need a dose of Barry WhiteFri Feb 01 1991 14:2928
Chris,

Re-read my note... I didn't say that it was Dean's fault that Montross
is not doing as well.  I ASKED you whether you thought it was Eric or
Dean - as in "Eric is not as talented as we had hoped" or "Dean is not
giving Montross enough playing time or involvement in the offense to let
him show his talent".

I really don't think Dean is a bad coach.... just like I don't think James
Worthy is a bad player.    But each is held in such high regard, that pointing
out what seem like flaws incur the wrath of the UNC/Laker faithful.  I think
Dean over-coaches at times.   He doesn't seem to try and build a team that 
will win THIS YEAR.   He's done an admirable job at creating a program that
achieves better-than-normal performance consistently... and seems to select
and nurture good people who also play well.   But when I read things like in
the recent SI article about having the freshmen tote the seniors bags, I 
wonder "what's the point?"  

One of my favorite players anywhere right now is George Lynch.  He could be
a 20 ppg man now, but seems like all he gets is leftovers on the offensive
end.   I'd love to see him on the floor for 36 minutes a game, but instead,
we see Henrik Rodl, Pat Sullivan, Salvadori, etc.  WHY?  WHY?  WHY?

Back to Montross... if he were at IU or Michigan, he'd probably be getting
twice the playing time and more involvement in the offense.   How else is
he going to develop into a top center without that competition.


17.188wondersHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughFri Feb 01 1991 15:498
Doug,

You gotta be careful with these guys, T and ACChris, who apparently have
quite a bit in common. 

Now we got a True Blue using info from Valvano. Who'd a thunkd it?

TTom
17.189Playing Time is only one of many variables ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 01 1991 16:2127
    re: TTom
    
    Hey, I never had anything against Jimmy V.  Always seemed like
    a nice guy.  Never had any reservations on his hoops knowledge either,
    and that dates back to his days at Iona.
    
    
    re: Ross
    
    Eric would be playing a ton at Michigan, no doubt.  He'd probably be
    playing more at IU also.  He knew coming to Chapel Hill that his PT
    would be lower than at other schools, especially his freshman year. 
    And yet he still came.  (This year he's playing essentially behind Pete
    Chilcutt, who some are now projecting as a first or second round NBA
    pick.)
    
    This is consistent with what post-Dean players say.  Both in his
    biography and on his coaches show ex-Heels invariably will say
    say they could've played more somewhere else, but the overall 
    basketball experience at Chapel Hill is second-to-none.
    
    Throw in the undying loyalty Dean has toward his players (both present
    and ex) and you've got people like Donald Williams committing to
    Carolina even though Les Robinson was guaranteeing him a starting job.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.190If there really is a God ...SHALOT::HUNTBlessed are the peacemakers ...Fri Feb 01 1991 18:3612
 And it's reading notes like this latest Soup tongue job on Dean Smith that
 make me continue to hit my knees every night and swear an ever-undying
 devotion to seeing them lose every single game they ever play.
 
 If the Tar Heels under Smif' were to ever put up a season slate like this
 one ...
 		... 0-14 conference, 0-25 overall
 
 I will immediately dial 1-800 to St. Peter at the Pearly Gates of Heaven
 and tell him it's okay, I'm ready to go.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.191Truth hurts eh Ketch? Heh heh!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 01 1991 18:581
    
17.192Curtis Hunter?HBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughFri Feb 01 1991 19:0311
The Donald Williamson Story reminds me of Curtis Hunter Story. When
Hunter was being recruited, he chose Carolina and Dean over State,
Valvano and a promise to start. Hunter's career was highlighted by
several significant injuries and coincided with a 5 year span wherein No
Carolina failed to win even an ACC title.

Chris, as regards your appreciation for Jimmy V, I would never say that
Dean is lacking in hoops knowledge or any other aspect of coaching. This,
of course, makes his approach to the sport all the more inexplicible.

TTom
17.193Promising PT is a mistake Dean never makes.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 01 1991 19:4118
    > The Donald Williamson Story
    
    DONALD WILLIAMS.  WILLIAMS!!  What is it wif you and Ross that you
    cain't get this guys name right?!!!!!
    
    Anyways, ...
    
    I haven't read where Curtis had any regrets on going to Carolina. 
    Injuries hurt him, no question.  He was also a victim of unrealistic
    expectations.  (At the time he was bearing the cross of being 'The
    Next Michael Jordan'.  Brian Reese seems to be the current Tar Heel
    shouldering *that* unfair burden ...)  
    
    But speaking of promised playing time, what about Andy Kennedy?  Didn't
    Jimmy V promise that kid he'd play, and that welsh on the deal?!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.194This guy is unforgettableSACT41::ROSSI need a dose of Barry WhiteFri Feb 01 1991 19:552
So, Chris, how is William Donaldson doing in H.S.?  Is he putting up big
numbers?
17.195Andy and CurtisHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughSat Feb 02 1991 12:2512
Yeah, I never did figure out what went wrong in the Andy Kennedy deal. He
was going to be the next Pack star with a shot that didn't quit. However,
in all the Wolfpackgate (tm), you never heard squat from Andy. He
transfered to UAB. At this point in time, I think Andy's been around 6
years: 1 at State, sit out 1 year, medical hardship 1 year, and 3 years
playing. He had a very serious knee injury.

I always felt bad for Curtis. He woulda done much better even playing for
Wake. His main problem was that he wasn't as good as he looked in high
school.

TTom
17.196LUNER::BROOKSTwentysomething Mutant Ninja HomeboySat Feb 02 1991 13:2934
    re .176
    
    Steve Alford - Supposedly the 2nd coming of Pete Maravich or Danny
    Ainge, or Jerry West, depending on who I read that week.
    
    Turned out that Stevie is damned good coming off a pick, but is a
    mechanical man who would be a lot better in the NBA, if only the NBA
    had a 40 second shot clock. 
    
    Scott Skiles - Another Magic Johnson. Uh huh ... had a monster game
    against G'Town in the NCAA's, which doubled the hype (and his draft
    position). Couldn't stay out of trouble, then couldn't stay healthy.
    Now he's doing great things with the Magic.
    
    Bobby Hurley - Another 'legend' at point guard. I'll admit I don't
    watch a lot of ACC games. But the first time I saw him, he looked
    average. The second time, slightly better. Then against UNLV, their
    guards had him so screwed up, he was picking up his dribble at the
    mid-court line. Then Kenny Anderson reduces him to ash.
    
    You tell me Doug.
    
    Hurley reminds me of ???? Ware, who was a point guard at UNLV a few
    years back (with Freddie Banks and Armon Gilliam). Ware led the nation
    in assists, but his shooting range was worse than mine is now, and I
    have a busted finger and whiplash. Seriously one-dimensional (Doug
    Ross' type of player I suppose :-). Hurley ain't much better.
    
    re ACC Chris                                                 
    
    As for King Rice, I haven't see him or the Heels enough to make a
    judgement. From what Bob and Cap are saying - it's a good thing. :-)
    
    Doc
17.197SACT41::ROSSI need a dose of Barry WhiteSun Feb 03 1991 12:4614
>    Steve Alford - Supposedly the 2nd coming of Pete Maravich or Danny
>    Ainge, or Jerry West, depending on who I read that week.

	Right.   I will bet my last dollar that noone has ever made any
	comparison between Steve Alford's basketball skills and any of the
	three players you named.  Ever.    
    
>    You tell me Doug.

	I'll tell you, DrM.   My comment was on how the group of players you	
	claimed were overrated all fit into a certain category.  I found it
	predictable that you would leave out players like Walter Berry,
	Pervis Ellison, Danny Manning, et al.  who belong to another group,
	and an even more overrated one as well.
17.198Next up for State: back-to-back games with UNCCSCOAC::KNORR_CCarolina BlueMon Feb 04 1991 11:5712
    Sweet win @ the Thrillerdome for State yesterday.  Built up a nice lead
    and held on down the stretch.  Tech got solid performances from
    Anderson and Mackey ....  and that's it.  Nobody else stepped up their
    game yesterday, and when that happens Tech will always be on trouble,
    no matter how great their PG.
    
    BTW, the State delay game (i.e. 4 Corners) to run down the clock in the
    last minute was truly a thing of beauty, but me thinks Buzz is given
    away secrets!  :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris  
17.199SACT41::ROSSI need a dose of Barry WhiteMon Feb 04 1991 12:1512
>Tech got solid performances from Anderson and Mackey ....  and that's it.

You really thought Anderson was solid?   9 for 22 from the field, 5 assists,
10 boards.

That's mediocre to me {'cept the boards}.... and following the great game he
had against Duke, he shot 6 for 20 against Maryland... making hime 15/42 {36%}
for the past two games.    I asked before, if he shoots <45% in college, what
will he shoot in the pros?

And why doesn't the best point guard ever lead his team in assists most games?
Barry has led the past two.. with only 7 and 6.
17.200What'd Kenny ever do to you anyways Ross?CSCOAC::KNORR_CCarolina BlueMon Feb 04 1991 12:2922
> You really thought Anderson was solid?   9 for 22 from the field, 5 assists,
> 10 boards.

    Yes, I'd call that solid.  His poor shooting and low assist totals are,
    IMHO, a direct reflection of his poor supporting cast.  (At least in
    yesterdays game...)
    
> I asked before, if he shoots <45% in college, what will he shoot in the pros?

    Difficult question to answer because it depends where he ends up.  If
    the Lakers draft him I suspect he'll be 50% or better and probably win
    rookie-of-the-year honors.  If the Timberwolves git him, well ....
    
    
> And why doesn't the best point guard ever lead his team in assists most games?
    
    That's_a easy one.  Anderson passing the ball to Tech's spastic bunch
    doesn't generate a hoop as often as it should, whereas Barry's assists
    are probably a reflection of him passing it to Kenny.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.201EARRTH::BROOKSTwentysomething Mutant Ninja HomeboyMon Feb 04 1991 16:3018
    re .197
    
    Nah Doug. Ellison was never expected to be the second coming except in
    the eyes of Bill Russell, and his GM career was rather short-lived.
    Manning had a serious Bernard King -type knee injury. Seeing that it
    took a dedicated vet like King, three years to return to his regal form
    (of which I will always been in respect and awe of), to expect a rookie
    like Manning to be at All-Star level within a 18 moths is silly.
    
    The jury is still out.
    
    As for Walter Berry ? Most scouts saw him as a basket case from day
    one. And I didn't see the media calling him the next Elgin Baylor,
    thank God.
    
    So gimme that last dollar of yours.
    
    Doc
17.202Yet another ugly side of the media. :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 04 1991 16:4614
    Strange as it may seem, DocZ(ero) seems to have hit on something here.
    Namely, the covert stereotyping by the mass media.
    
    Dean touched on this recently by blasting the media as proclaiming Eric
    Montross "the next Bill Walton".  Why Bill Walton?  Simple.  He's
    white.  Zillions of other examples could be raised (every white boxer
    is 'The Great White Hope', white hoopsters are 'heady', black ones
    'athletic', etc, etc.)
    
    A bad trend.  Very bad.  But hey, whadaya expect oughtof a media is
    wholey self-serving and barren of moral fiber?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.203SHALOT::MEDVIDWhen two tribes go to war...Mon Feb 04 1991 17:118
>    A bad trend.  Very bad.  But hey, whadaya expect oughtof a media is
>    wholey self-serving and barren of moral fiber?
    
    But if a Tarhole alum were in a position to hire, I'm sure Dean would
    do a 180 on that opinion "for the sake of a young man's future."
    
    Just a thought.
    
17.204dan-l with a brutal overhand right... ;^)CNTROL::CHILDSin my Muntumo, Muntumo MambaMon Feb 04 1991 17:190
17.205Tough!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSBeach music=Daytona engines!Mon Feb 04 1991 17:329
    What a week!
    
    	Last Sat.  Ga. Tech at Tech    a win...
    	2 games back to back with Tar heels...hopefully a split
    	Then another Sat game...
    
    Looking for a 3 win week!
    
    B.A.
17.206Overhand right that missed me by 3 feet!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 04 1991 17:336
    re: .203
    
    I fail to see the relevance of your observation ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.207SimpleSHALOT::HUNTBlessed are the peacemakers ...Mon Feb 04 1991 18:5417
    Pretty simple, Soup ...
    
    You blast the media for calling Montross a Walton-clone but Dan'l
    surmises that you'd change your tune pretty darn fast if a paper or a
    tube station run by a UNC grad hired one of the ex-Heels.  Then it
    would all be so glorious and righteous and morally firm, right ???
    
    Actually, I would blast the media, too, for this one.  Montross can
    sniff Walton's jock if he feels so inclined but that's about as close
    as deserves to be compared to the deadhead redhead on the court.
    
    Oh, and by the way, JR Reid *IS* getting college credit towards his
    degree for his 10-minute pre-game morning radio show on WRFX in
    Charlotte.  Wish I had a such a cushy path to get those last few credit
    hours
    
    Bob Hunt
17.208Simply irrelevant.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 04 1991 19:155
    Simple?  I suppose, but considering you're making *assumptions* about
    completely *non-related* issues, I'd say my confusion is justified.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.209Biting my fingers to keep from saying any moreSHALOT::HUNTBlessed are the peacemakers ...Tue Feb 05 1991 02:5212
17.210ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewTue Feb 05 1991 15:3020
    >I'd say my confusion is justified.
    
    I'd say it's pathological, and that moral considerations such as 
    justice don't apply to this mental state afflicting you.
    
    And would you git off this media kick and quit tonguing Midnight's
    glistening feet long enough to realize that the media encourage 
    such mindless mistrust in them for the purpose of engendering the
    "central lie" about their alleged manipulation such that the REAL
    manipulation that they do actually gets done!  Capiche?
    
    Example: For the first time in the history of man a free people are
    angrily demanding more censorship.  In a like manner *you're* in 
    here trotting around conspiracy theories about how the Montross-
    Walton comparison is some racial conspiracy meant only to embarrass
    poor Smif'!
    
    What next?  And, no, your confusion is not justifiable at all.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.211ACC Chris, speaking Truth in a land of obfuscation ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Feb 06 1991 14:1639
> I'd say it's pathological, and that moral considerations such as 
> justice don't apply to this mental state afflicting you.

George Orwell would shudder in disbelief if he read the last few notes
in here.  I offer an objective analysis which is dealt with by commentary
completely unrelated to the issue at hand.  Ultimately judgement is
issued against me by the vocal minority, with the implication being I'm
not mentally fit!  What's next, a rat cage over my haid?!

    
> Example: For the first time in the history of man a free people are
> angrily demanding more censorship.  

Typically, your 'Example' has absolutely nothing to do with the issue
at hand.  Course I suppose I'll be chastised for pointing this out.
:^(


> In a like manner *you're* in here trotting around conspiracy theories 
> about how the Montross-Walton comparison is some racial conspiracy meant 
> only to embarrass poor Smif'!

My objection to the Montross-Walton comparison has absolutely ZERO to
do with embarassment for Dean.  Heck, as Eric himself pointed out during
his decision-announcing press conference, the man's 10/17 in placing
big guys in the pros!  Nothing to be embarrased about there.

No, my objection stems for pure altruism.  I simply don't like seeing
this kind of ugly stereotyping go unchecked by the self-serving media.

    
> What next?  

More stick-to-the-facts, no-nonsense, objective SPORTS analysis, despite
the persecution I'll undoubtedly face.

Go Tar Heels,

- ACC Chris
17.212Prediction? Not from me ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Feb 06 1991 14:2531
    Tonight in the ACC:
    
    UNC @ NC State	In what's gotta be a first in ACC history,
    			2 teams will face each other on successive nights.
    			This has gotta be considered a MUST win for State,
    			since they figure to be more worn down than
    			Carolina tomorrow night and will be on the road
    			to boot.
    
    			State is coming off an impressive road win at Tech.
    			Meanwhile Carolina has had 6 days off.  
    
    			Keys to the game are pretty simple.  State
    			absolutely must have a hot Rodney Monroe.  This
    			might be a given the way he's playing right now.
    			Also they must steer clear of foul trouble.
    			
    			I'd look for Carolina to really concentrate on
    			pounding the ball inside tonight, something we
    			failed to do in the 2nd half against Tech.  We'll
    			throw everybody and the kitchen sink at Monroe,
    			including a possible junk defense.  (Used one
    			against Tech the other night.)
    
    Maryland @ Clemson	This may be the Tigers last chance for an ACC win.
    			It will certainly be the last time they'll be 
    			favored to win.  Both teams are out of the ACC
    			race.
    
    
    - ACC Chris	
17.213Will the talent laden Tar Heels blow it?AXIS::ROBICHAUDIndustrial Strength NoterWed Feb 06 1991 14:291
    
17.214what was that, a sick, rhetorical question?CARP::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewWed Feb 06 1991 15:491
    
17.215SACT41::ROSSOpen for suggestionsThu Feb 07 1991 11:1813
Tar Heels went down to the lesser-talented Wolfpack at NC State last night.
Dean was in rare form last night... attempting to make every call for the
refs, coming out onto the floor, junping up and down, making all sorts of
pantomime hand gestures related to every infraction he thought he saw.

NC State's 1991 version of Lethal Weapon III {Corchiani, Monroe, and 
Gugliotta} took care of business.  If those three stay out of foul trouble, 
State can play with anyone....  It will be a crying shame when Kenny 
Anderson is named starting point guard on the all-ACC team... because
Corchiani comes to play every night, unlike Kenny.   Kenny may end up
a better NBA player, but I'll watch Corchiani play any time.

Montross was a non-entity again.   4 points and 4 boards.
17.216Well played and exciting game. Can't ask for any more ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 07 1991 11:3314
    Congrats to State for an impressive win.  Carolina made a nice charge
    at the end but the Pack played with grit and hung on.
    
    I wonder if Dean is second guessing himself this morning for playing
    the Blue Team in the first half.  They really cost us.  I'll be
    surprised if they see action tonight.
    
    Speaking of tonight, Carolina has to view this as a must win.  State
    has the pressure off of them - they can play loose and relaxed,
    although it's hard to imagine them playing any better than they did
    last night.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.217good luck charm from the worshippers?CNTROL::CHILDSTango &amp; Cash, George BushThu Feb 07 1991 12:066
 What da heil was that gold thingy on Dean's label? Why they didn't give
 him a T there at the end I'll never know? Only saw bits and pieces too
 bad I always enjoy a_excellent loss......

 mike
17.218SACT41::ROSSOpen for suggestionsThu Feb 07 1991 12:4516
> What da heil was that gold thingy on Dean's label? 

Apparently Dean believes a large yellow ribbon on his lapel might draw
attention away from his nose.   :-)    It was oversized, wasn't it {the ribbon}

>Why they didn't give him a T there at the end I'll never know?

He was begging the refs to call a T on the NC State fans for throwing stuff
on the floor {done because they assumed the game was over}.   People can 
say what they will about Bob Knight, but Dean works the officials harder and
more often than Knight ever does... and he does it in a more whiny way.

> Only saw bits and pieces to  bad I always enjoy a_excellent loss......

Not just a_excellent loss, a_excellent game.   Rodney Monroe will be a great
NBA guard.  
17.219I'll be worried when Dean *stops* working the refs ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 07 1991 12:5715
    My guess is that gold thingy was war-related.  
    
    Dean works the officials hard, like any other coach.  Les Robinson was
    yaking away too, not to mention Corchiani.  ('Aw, Mister Refewee, dat
    bad guy is holding my shirt.  Sniff, sniff, sniff.')
    
    The refs probably wouldn't have called a T on the State crowd even if
    they threw a steel girder onto the floor, given the horror show at the
    Duke @ Tech game.  (In you missed it the ref made a horrendous call
    against Tech, causing 1 penny to be thrown onto the floor at the
    Thrillerdome, whereupon the ref issued a Technical on the crowd.  No
    warning, no nothing.  Heck, it was probably a Dukie who threw it!)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.220ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSYTearyEyed YellowRibbon NationThu Feb 07 1991 14:1926
    I was embarrassed for 'Snuffy last nite, all that untoward nonstop
    effeminate whiney moany woany action... he was just a bitch last 
    night.  If Michael Spinks ever makes a comeback I nominate Smif'
    to sign on in place of Butch Lewis as manager, of course ol' 'Snuff
    will have to drop a few pounds to pull off going shirtless with 
    erect nipples under the tight-cut gold lame jacket, but he cain do
    it.
    
    Also, what's with the overwrought crap about blue team blah blah
    blah.  He kept bringing in Montross stone-cold at big moments and
    the kid never seemed to find his rhythm.  Substituting a lot is ok
    but NEVER when it's unrelated to on-court performance.  Also evident
    after about the 5th straight successful foul shot that the Star Heels
    coulda won had they only exploited all those blue chip outside shooters
    on this so very very deep squad.
    
    Corchiani is one a the funnest players in the country to watch.  He 
    could indeed be better than Kenny right now.  But this Gugliotti is
    their most talented guy, IMNSHO.  Along with Monroe this is NOT a team
    devastated by Snaggletooth's scandal.  They may not be super deep like
    the always-loaded Star Heels, but those three are better than the top
    3 of, say, Ohio State or Indiana.  
    
    Whoever draws NC Skate in the tourney is unlucky.  
    
    Big10 Tom  
17.221Absolute *MUST* win for the Heels tonightRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 07 1991 14:3510
    > this is NOT a team devastated by Snaggletooth's scandel
    
    Correct for this year.  But picture for a moment this same NC State
    squad next year minus both Monroe and Corchiani.  They got zip for
    recruits last year and this year.
    
    Gugliotta might wanna consider heading to NBA land a little early ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.222More you won't understand, Chris:SHALOT::MEDVIDWhen two tribes go to war...Thu Feb 07 1991 14:3910
>  But picture for a moment this same NC State
>    squad next year minus both Monroe and Corchiani.  They got zip for
>    recruits last year and this year.
    
    You mean like UNC this year?  I'd venture to say that the nobodies NC
    State gets for next year would be able to post similar numbers as
    Dean's Fab Five...if they don't run. 8-)
    
    	--dan'l
    
17.223QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Thu Feb 07 1991 15:119
Good game, but I have to admit, I think Snuffy Smif is losing it.
It's like any more he is trying his darnedest to find a way to lose
(sometimes the team wins in spite of his efforts).
Same with John `ah cain coach de O-lympics' Thompson.

If you combined the two of them, I don't think you could come up with
one competent coach anymore.

Mike JN
17.224Pack Time Again!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSBeach music=Daytona engines!Thu Feb 07 1991 17:2412
    	YES! YES! YES!  What a win! The Pac going away! :*)

    	Now they cain go into the Dumb dome and play decent ball, not have
    to worry about getting a (2nd) win in a week's time!

    	As far as the recruit's are concerned, State may not have a top 20
    year, but it's what you do with what you got that counts! ASK DEAN!

    Go Pack!

    B.A.
17.225Go Wolpack BEAT the effete baby blue spoilt brats!ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSYTearyEyedYellowRibbonSobNationThu Feb 07 1991 18:491
    
17.226A loss would be devastating.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Feb 07 1991 19:4110
    If anybody's tired tonight it *better* be the Pack.
    
    And furthermore, if UNC drops this game tonight my wife better hide the
    rope, sharp objects, strong medicine, and ladders, cause I will clearly
    not be a happy fan.
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.227Down tonight!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSBeach music=Daytona engines!Fri Feb 08 1991 00:408
17.228Whew.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 08 1991 12:169
    That sound you may have heard around 9pm EST was the collective sigh of
    relief from me and Dean.  It wasn't pretty, but it was a win we simply
    had to have.
    
    No rest for the weary though, as Virginia eyes revenge tomorrow in
    Chapel Hill.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.229;-}SHALOT::MEDVIDWhen two tribes go to war...Fri Feb 08 1991 13:117
>                                   -< Whew. >-
>
>    That sound you may have heard around 9pm EST was the collective sigh of
>    relief from me and Dean. 
    
    Who was on top?
    
17.230Miscellaneous ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 08 1991 13:2725
    re: .-1
    
    Ew!  Joggles my mind from last nights LA Law though, where dem 2 female
    lawyers, well ... never mind.  (This is the ACC note, the equivalent of
    the Family Hour during TV's Prime Time.)
    
    
    > I think the score was 92-70..or something along those lines..Hey!
    > I'll take a split with them!
    
    Thanks for the compliment BA.  It is true that Carolina opponents are
    downright gleeful to gain a split from the Heels.  (This has been the
    case for roughly 30 years or so, BTW.)
    
    Anybody notice how quiet the DD was compared to Reynolds?  Place is
    practically a tomb.  And don't blame the good Carolina fans either. 
    Back in the Carmichael days we had as loud a building as anybody.  Now,
    thanks to the fat cat alum who've bought their way in, we barely get any
    kind of homecourt edge.  The students are up in the cheap seats, which
    is kinda backwards IMNSHO.
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.231Who thinks up this stuff ???SHALOT::HUNTBlessed are the peacemakers ...Fri Feb 08 1991 13:5733
17.232They were loud for the amount that were thereSHALOT::MEDVIDWhen two tribes go to war...Fri Feb 08 1991 13:5911
>    Anybody notice how quiet the DD was compared to Reynolds?  Place is
>    practically a tomb.  
    
    I thought they were pretty loud for the first 10 minutes.  Took State
    right out of the game.
    
    What I did notice was that half of the seats were empty at the start of
    the game.  Was there a misprint on the tickets or is traffic that bad
    around Snuffy Center?
    
    	--dan'l
17.233MoreRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 08 1991 14:0819
    > half of the seats were empty
    
    No misprint on the start of the game dan'l.  These fat cat alums just
    don't show up on time, and sometimes they don't show up at all!
    
    A Tar Heel alum (and season-ticket holder) wrote an editorial to this
    weeks Poop Sheet describing this.  He complains that they sit on their
    fat butts the whole game (applauding politely, perhaps), leave early,
    arrive late, and sometimes don't show up at all (and don't even bother
    to give their unused tickets away)!
    
    I think the tickets should be redistributed, and I also think it would
    serve us well to play a game or 2 a year in Carmichael.  Heck, the
    building's still there - why not?  I'd put Duke in there for sure, and
    maybe State.  (When they get good again.  They ain't gonna be good or
    even mediocre for a few years after this one ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.234AXIS::ROBICHAUDIndustrial Strength NoterFri Feb 08 1991 14:102
    	Hey Caught how many more years before you qualify as a fat
    cat alum?     
17.235SACT41::ROSSOpen for suggestionsFri Feb 08 1991 14:484
A further example of the stranglehold the ACC has in the NC, SC region:

	Saturday's NBA All Star game will not be shown in
Greenville/Spartanburg so that local residents can see Clemson play.
17.236Not while Dean's alive and coaching.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 08 1991 15:0023
    > Hey Caught how many more years before you qualify as a fat
    > cat alum?
    
    Frankly /Don I don't ever see that happening.  One could argue that
    it's an impossibiliy, given that I'm not a alumnus, but the folks we're
    talking about might not be as well.  (The only criterion that went into
    seat selection was the amount of $$$ donated. :^(  )
    
    Given your concern though, I'll be sure to watch for the signs that
    might put me on the road to 'fat cat' status:
    
    o Current salary increases by X10 (or more ...)
    o Cancel subscriptions to Carolina Blue and The Poop Sheet
    o Take the wife out to dinner instead of watching a UNC game on TV
    o Passively sit through a UNC game, showing little or no emotion
    o Pick up the newspaper and discover that (surprise!) UNC is in
      the Final 4
    
    I'm sure there are many more signs to watch for but, as I said, it's
    unlikely to ever happen, at least while Dean's still coaching.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.237CARP::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina SuckedFri Feb 08 1991 15:336
    >The place was practically a tomb.
    
    With all the burials Reverend Smif' has supervised, I think that's
    the proper ambience.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.238More bucks means less magicSHALOT::HUNTBlessed are the peacemakers ...Fri Feb 08 1991 15:4217
17.239SACT41::ROSSVD is coming!Fri Feb 08 1991 15:462
Hey, Chris, maybe if you gave a large endowment to UNC, they'd make you an
honorary alum... or is there a problem with you being not well endowed?  :-)
17.240Maybe a loud home crowd & having Dean is unsporting ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 08 1991 15:5713
    re: .238
    
    Agreed.  Which is why I think playing a few games a year in Carmichael
    would be a great idea.
    
    
    re: .239
    
    I couldn't give a hoot about being made a_honorary alum.  It's those
    season tix I want!  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.241RAVEN1::B_ADAMSBeach music=Daytona engines!Fri Feb 08 1991 16:5414
17.242CST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Fri Feb 08 1991 17:223
Isn't Saturday's game the old-timers, the 3-point contest, Jammin & Dunkin',
and Nazz'z lap sitting contest?
17.243Virginia.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 11 1991 12:4222
    One has to question the wisdom of Virginia's schedule-makers, given the
    devastation that went on in North Carolina the last 4 days.  (In
    case you missed it, the Cavs were tied for first before losing 3 games
    @ Duke, @ UNC, and @ Wake.  Seems they set this disasterous road swing
    up themselves by scheduling Notre Dame in the midst of the conference
    season.)
    
    The Cavs are now completely out of the ACC race, and you could question
    if they'll ever recover this year.  (John Crotty was hooked up to_a IV
    before the Carolina game, suffering from dehydration.)
    
    BTW, for those of you who think BobHunt is too hard on the Tar Heels,
    consider the stat Bucky Waters was kind enough to pass on Saturday. 
    Virginia has been to Chapel Hill SEVENTY times (SEVENTY-ONE now) and
    has won (hang onto yer coffee) *TWICE*.  That's 2-69 folks.
    
    (Kinda makes me feel bad for pickin' on him so much.  :^( )
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
17.244Just how much are glass houses going for these days?SHALOT::MEDVIDWhen two tribes go to war...Mon Feb 11 1991 13:0213
>    BTW, for those of you who think BobHunt is too hard on the Tar Heels,
>    consider the stat Bucky Waters was kind enough to pass on Saturday. 
>    Virginia has been to Chapel Hill SEVENTY times (SEVENTY-ONE now) and
>    has won (hang onto yer coffee) *TWICE*.  That's 2-69 folks.
    
    And Dean Smith has been to the NCAA tourny how many times?  And they've
    won once.  That's 1-gazillion folks.
    
    Of course this won't have rellevance to ACChris, or else he won't see
    the connection.
    
    	--dan'l
    
17.245The poor logic never ends ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 11 1991 13:3414
>    Of course this won't have rellevance to ACChris, or else he won't see
>    the connection.
    
    You're right on both counts actually.  It has no relevance, and there
    is no connection.
    
    But it doesn't surprise me in the least that you'd try and equate a
    battle between two (2) teams where only one win is required to the NCAA
    Tournament, where upwards of six (6) are.
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.246Do ya git it dan'l? Huh? Huh?!!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 11 1991 13:3914
    re: .-1
    
    BTW, even if I *DID* use dan'l's incredibly bogus metric, Dean's still
    better!
    
    Haw haw haw!!!!!!!!111111
    
    					W	L	PCT
    				       ---     ---      ---
    UNC vs. NCAA Tournament             1       29      .033
    UVa vs. UNC				2       69	.028
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.247Enjoy it now, SoupSHALOT::HUNTBlessed are the peacemakers ...Mon Feb 11 1991 16:0211
 It just makes each Wahoo win against the Heels that much sweeter and it
 makes each and every Heels loss that much tastier.
    
 You ought to know better, Soup.  Taunting guarantees revenge, a dish which
 tastes so much better with age.
    
 Maybe the Heels and the Hoos will meet again in the ACC Tournament in the
 Charlotte Coliseum where North Carolina is a whopping 0-1 lifetime against
 Virginia.
    
 Bob Hunt
17.248No no no.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 11 1991 17:0515
    Slow down thare Ketch.  I am NOT, repeat, NOT, doing any taunting. 
    That would be unsporting, and Dean clearly would not be pleased.
    (Plus it's none-to-smart, given the potential scenario you point out.)
    
    No, my point (before being side-tracked by dan'l's bad comments) were
    simply that I think UVa blew it schedule-wise, and I hope it doesn't
    take the steam completely out of this team.  They've got a nice bunch,
    but when you know ahead of time you've got a thin bench I just can't
    see the logic behind knowingly scheduling 3 *TOUGH* ACC road games in 4
    days.
    
    Maybe a sign of Jones' inexperience?  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.249the long & the short a it: 8^o ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewMon Feb 11 1991 18:441
    
17.250Nice try, SoupSHALOT::HUNTBlessed are the peacemakers ...Tue Feb 12 1991 00:4343
17.251UVa a talented bunch, but do they have anything left?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Feb 12 1991 17:0217
> You come up with some juicy 2-69 stat, you stick out your baby blue tongue, 
> you let loose with your best raspberry and then you claim you weren't 
> taunting me because you would never do something the Rev
> wouldn't approve of.

You may have a point here Ketch.  Maybe I *was* rubbing it in.  Course
nobody ever picks on poor ACC Chris when the Heels drop one.  Oh no!

Nevertheless this is a feeble excuse at best and Dean would not
condone such behavior.  Please forget that I ever brought up that 
ugly 2-69 stat in the first place.

(Also delete those unsporting ACC Chris belly laughs we all here in 
 the background!)


- ACC Chris
17.252C'mere boy, atta good boy ...SHALOT::HUNTBlessed are the peacemakers ...Tue Feb 12 1991 18:3610
    The other night the baby blue sportscasters referred to the Heels' win
    over Virginia as "another win for Dean-O" ...
    
    My wife said to me ... "Who the hell is Dean-O ???"
    
    I said ... "He's Fred Flintstone's pet but you wouldn't know it around
    		here, would you ???
    
    Bob Hunt
    
17.253CAM::WAYG Troop 2/3 ACR, #1 Fan...Tue Feb 12 1991 18:3811
Bob --

That was "stooooooopid"!

Too funny.  

Actually, Dean-O is the younger brother of that guy who picks the sports
winners, Bean-O.

Hope this helps,
'Saw
17.254SHALOT::MEDVIDWhen two tribes go to war...Tue Feb 12 1991 18:4011
    No, Dean-O is Dean Martin...
    
    
    
    
    ...played by Ned Beatty in Rodney Dangerfield's 'Back to School' which
    is on HBO this month.  One classic flick.
    
    "Now that's what I call marine biology!"
    
    	--dan'l
17.255Tech's BestWMOIS::REEVE_CWed Feb 13 1991 13:2212
    GT recruit and Kenny Anderson's replacement Travis Best of Springfield
    (Mass.) Central High had an awesome game a few days ago. He hit 8 3pt
    shots in a row in the first 4 minutes of the game enroute to a 81pt, 11
    assist, 9 rebound, 9 steal game and victory over Putnam. His coach said
    "He could have had more than 100 points, except he passed off too damn
    much". Most of his points came early as he had 48 on 17-for-21 shooting
    in the first half.
    
    I hope he can carry it over to the ACC since Anderson will be gone next
    year (even Cremins says so).
    
    Chris
17.256Tyson an ex-Tiger; Is he too late for the Heels ???SHALOT::HUNTBlessed are the peacemakers ...Wed Feb 13 1991 15:1726
    From this morning's "Charlotte Observer" ...
    
       "Senior forward Sean Tyson has been kicked off the Clemson
       basketball team after being charged with assaulting a female
       student, the university said Tuesday.
    
       Tyson allegedly grabbed Angela Celeste McAbee and repeatedly threw
       her against a brick wall at Calhoun Courts on the campus, said
       reports filed at the Clemson University Police Department.
    
       Tyson was charged with assault and battery of a high and aggravated
       nature.
    
       Tyson, a 6-7, 215-pound Baltimore native, was also charged with
       possessing a .32-caliber pistol on campus, the school said. 
       Spokeswoman Cathy Sims said the two charges were not related."
       
    Good thing this didn't happen in Chapel Hill.  Tyson might have
    *really* been punished then.  He might have gotten (horrors!) suspended
    for a whole game maybe.  Or maybe (oh, sweet Jeezus, have mercy!) the
    rest of the seniors might have given him a swirlie.
    
    Obviously, Tyson didn't purchase the King Rice "How To Slap Her Around"
    home video.   Bad move, Sean, bad move.
    
    Bob Hunt
17.257RAVEN1::B_ADAMSBeach music=Daytona engines!Wed Feb 13 1991 17:107
    re-1,
    
    	The reason King got off so easy is that he didn't hit a *female*!
    
    Plus, Clemson is trying to clean up it's image...ho hum!
    
    B.A.
17.258Could even be worse Bob, maybe even double secret probation!AXIS::ROBICHAUDIndustrial Strength NoterWed Feb 13 1991 19:181
    
17.259Looks like a 2-horse race. (Duke & UNC)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 14 1991 12:2925
    Last night in the ACC:
    
    o Carolina survived Wake Forest 85-70.  (Wake has beaten UNC once since
      1982, something I can say now that we're done with them this year.)
    
      Interesting how Dean's adjusted to this team.  In the loss to State
      I reported the Blue Team really hurt us, getting outscored 9-0. 
      Since that game there's been no more Blue Team.  In the loss at home
      to Tech we needed a TO during the Jackets run from 16 down.  Dean
      opted against calling one.  Last night Wake started an identical run
      at the identical time of the game and Dean quickly went for the TO.
      
    o Unbelievably, State *almost* got beat last night by (who?) Robert
      Morris at home.  They squeezed by them by 2 points, 90-88.
    
    o Virginia downed (who?) Fairfield 84-52.  At one point the score was 
      45-15.  Me thinks there was some serious wound-licking going on
      in this one.
    
    o Finally, in a mild upset, Maryland topped Georgia Tech 96-93, putting
      Tech's NCAA bid seriously in question. Tech is now 13-9.  They now 
      face Arizona on the road and then Virginia on the road.  Hello 13-11.
      
    
    - ACC Chris
17.260*** CURRENT ACC STANDINGS ***RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 14 1991 12:3415
    		-------------------------------------
    		Team			Conf	All
    		-------------------------------------
    		DUKE			8-2	22-4
    		UNC			7-3	18-4
    		NC STATE		6-4	14-7
    		VIRGINIA		5-5	18-7
    		WAKE FOREST		5-5	14-8
    		GEORGIA TECH		5-6	13-9
    		MARYLAND		3-7	13-10
    		CLEMSON			1-8	10-12
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.261Murray State?HBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughThu Feb 14 1991 12:507
>    o Unbelievably, State *almost* got beat last night by (who?) Robert
>      Morris at home.  They squeezed by them by 2 points, 90-88.

Chris, this is typical for State. They usually can beat almost anyone and
lose to almost anyone.

TTom
17.262Should have a DeanDome vs ChuckCenter tourneySHALOT::MEDVIDto discover war is not the answerThu Feb 14 1991 13:1916
    Robert Morris is a small business college in Coraopolis, PA (near the
    Greater Pittsburgh International Airport).  I almost went there to get
    an MBA, but then got accepted to CMU.
    
    They play in the ECAC Metro Conference (which I think has been renamed
    recently) which includes teams such as Marist and St. Francis (PA). 
    These teams have been giant killers in the past and have a
    non-too-shabby track record in the NCAAs, if I do recall, as far as
    small colleges go.
    
    	--dan'l
    
    PS: Robert Morris named its new basketball facility after its current
    president...or should I say, the current president named it after
    himself...the Charles L. Sewell Center.  Maybe they'd be better off
    playing some other self-righteous-minded ACC school, eh?
17.263RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 14 1991 15:4214
    Only diff dan'l is dat Dean didn't want da DD named Dean.  
    
    In fact, he fought it tooth and nail before finally resigning himself to
    the fact that they (rich and powerful fat-cat alum's) were gonna
    do it anyways ...
    
    BTW, another classic example of our great season-ticket holding fans
    lasted night.  Fox makes steal in 2nd half and goes in for a dyn-o-mite
    slam-bam-jam breakaway dunk.  ESPN flashes to the lower-level crowd,
    where all the doners sit, and they're firmly planted in their seats
    whilst clapping somewhat enthusiastically.  Ugh.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.264QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Thu Feb 14 1991 17:326
I was  in a big hurry this morning, but I thought I saw something about
a team beating Davidson(?) 80something to 39?!?!?

What was that all about?

Mike JN
17.265Duke 74 Davidson 397221::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu Feb 14 1991 17:371
    
17.266CAM::WAYThe Axe-masterThu Feb 14 1991 17:531
Does Wesleyan play hoops?????
17.267BUOTP::TP01Doug RossThu Feb 14 1991 19:241
    Any stats on Kenny Anderson last night?   
17.268Yet it happenedSHALOT::HUNTBlessed are the peacemakers ...Fri Feb 15 1991 21:5827
17.269SACT41::ROSSPrepared food, prepared dude!Mon Feb 18 1991 10:105
Georgia Tech beat Arizona yesterday 62-56 despite a (another?) terrible
shooting game by Kenny Anderson, who was 6-21 from the floor.   

Over the weekend, Duke lost at Wake Forest, thus setting up a tie between 
the Blue Devils and the Tar Heels for first place.
17.270and State beats UConnHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughMon Feb 18 1991 11:3217
Also, State beat UConn, 60-59, over the weekend as Rodney Monroe passed
David Thompson as the all-time State scorer. 

Bob Hunt, someone ought to help your fellow Wahoo Dan Bonner (I think
that's his name; I'm sure he's an ex-Hoo). He broadcast the Wake game and
said how important it was for the winner of the Duke-No Carolina game
because they would win the league championship and get the tournament
bye. How about oh-for-2, Dan. First of all, in an issue that seems to
come up every year, the winner of the tournament is the league
championship. Secondly, there are 8 teams. Now how does that bye work
again?

Wake, State and Ga Tech all helped themselves out for the NCAA
tournament. Getting 6 teams into the tourney now seems a real
possibility.

TTom
17.271CAM::WAYToo much forking, too many child processes!Mon Feb 18 1991 11:386
UConn shot HORRIFICALLY from the floor. I didn't watch the game, but
I saw highlights on the news at 6pm....

Oh well.....8^)

'Saw
17.272They can play with and beat the best of 'emSHALOT::MEDVIDto discover war is not the answerMon Feb 18 1991 12:216
    Wake Forest looked great Saturday.  They never let Duke get up although
    it was close the whole way.  If they get hot for a weekend in March,
    they could...gasp...win the ACC tourney.  However, they do seem to be
    nothing more than homers at this point.  We shall see.
    
    	--dan'l
17.273Only 7 teams this year ... :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 18 1991 13:1515
    re: .270 (TTom)
    
    Maryland is ineligible for the ACC Tournament this year, so the winner
    of the regular season will receive a bye in the 1st round of the
    tourney.
    
    As to his other point, all the coaches will concede that the regular
    season championship is far more meaningful than winning the ACC
    Tournament.  The league recognizes *both* the league champion and
    tournament champion.  (A proposal I believe Jimmy V championed.)
    The fact that the league still choses to name the tourney winner the
    league champion is more a reflection of nostalgia.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.274IU - OSU a great game, but the real action was in the A-C-C!!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 18 1991 13:2126
    *HUGE* weekend in the ACC - absolutely **HUGE**.
    
    o Carolina breezes past Maryland, closing within 1/2 game of the Nerds
    
    o Wake comes up BIG against the Devils, thus forcing a tie for the
      league lead.  A showdown on the last day of the season @ Chapel
      Hill looms!
    
    o Virginia overcomes a Clemson slow-down game to escape with a "W".
      Clemson's gonna be downright no fun to play again this year if
      Cliff Ellis keeps this up.  (He will.)
    
    o Tech came away with an unlikely yet crucial non-conference win,
      keeping their NCAA Tournament hopes solidly in tact.  Techies all
      across Atlanta who couldn't stand to watch the punishment were
      shocked and amazed when they flipped on their 6 o'clock news, I'll
      tell ya...
    
    o NC State solidified their NCAA Tourney bid, knocking off UConn @
      Connecticut.  This is a game I simply cannot figure.  State shot
      absolutely horribly from the floor.  We're talking 4/24 from 3-point
      territory; 22/72 for the game!  Connecticut should feel thoroughly
      embarassed by this one ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.275CAM::WAYToo much forking, too many child processes!Mon Feb 18 1991 13:2818
>    o NC State solidified their NCAA Tourney bid, knocking off UConn @
>      Connecticut.  This is a game I simply cannot figure.  State shot
>      absolutely horribly from the floor.  We're talking 4/24 from 3-point
>      territory; 22/72 for the game!  Connecticut should feel thoroughly
>      embarassed by this one ...

Nah!
    
It was a seesaw affair, from what I heard on the news.  I didn't see the
game, but from what I understand UCONN could simply not put them away.
The last second shot bounced out (CLANG!).... UCONN shot terribly also!
Chris Smith shot as badly as I do....

Nobody was listening to me when early on I said this is a rebuilding
year for Connecticut - a reality check after the Dream Season....

Oh well,
'Saw
17.276A little down, but nothing to be embarassed about.SHALOT::MEDVIDto discover war is not the answerMon Feb 18 1991 14:0018
>    o NC State solidified their NCAA Tourney bid, knocking off UConn @
>      Connecticut.  This is a game I simply cannot figure.  State shot
>      absolutely horribly from the floor.  We're talking 4/24 from 3-point
>      territory; 22/72 for the game!  Connecticut should feel thoroughly
>      embarassed by this one ...
    
    Are you kidding, Chris?  Thoroughly embarassed because a last second
    shot or tip in didn't fall?  Would you be saying the same thing if it
    were UNC in the same scenario...UNC in the DeanDome and the ball rolls
    around the rim and just doesn't go down?  
    
    Thoroughly embarassed.  If anyone knows the meaning of that phrase, it
    should be you after Mr. Hunt raked you over the coals about your looks-
    like-a-smells-like-a-must-be-a hired gun philosphy.
    
    You are consistently entertaining, however. 8-)
    
    	--dan'l
17.277Games like this aren't won or lost in the final seconds...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 18 1991 14:1316
    Sorry dan'l but I cain't agree.  If State's proven anything this year
    it's that:
    
    a) They can beat *ANYBODY* when they shoot well
    
    and
    
    b) They can lose to *ANYBODY* when they don't shoot well
    
    If you're a good team (Top 30, say) and you're at home and you're
    playing State and they shoot lousy and you lose, ...
    
    you should be embarrassed.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.278MrT luvs the Wolfpack !!CARP::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewMon Feb 18 1991 14:5614
    Congrats to the Wolfpack on a giant road win against Connecticut.
    Corch, Rodney, Gugliotti... this is a_easy-to-like squad, a team
    with oodles of character.  Could it be that they found themselves
    in overcoming the Star Heels last week? 
    
    The Wolfpack is a bad draw for whomever gets them in the Tourney.
    Best pair of guards in the country, and in the Tourney floor leadership,
    ball handling, and outside shooting are *tres* important.
    
    Too bad the Almost Close doesn't have a conference championship season.
    If they did, it'd be interesting to see who'd win it.
    
    Big10 Tom
                                                         
17.279Tweakin' himSHALOT::HUNTBlessed are the peacemakers ...Mon Feb 18 1991 15:0511
17.280State not out of race - must be Duke WednesdayRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 18 1991 15:106
    The Pack could be a horrible draw in the NCAA's, or a lucky one.
    If I were a good team I wouldn't want to face them.  But if I
    were a so-so one, State is solid upset material.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.281My vote!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWhimpOnwers+Resrictors=NASCARMon Feb 18 1991 17:148
    	I think Robinson should get C/O/Y award(of course I'm partial)for
    getting the Wolfpack back into the swing of things in the ACC. He's
    taken what many have tab a two man team and positioned themselves a
    chance to win the regular season. At least they're doing it
    legitimately!  Way to go Les!

    B.A.
17.282ACC COY?HBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughMon Feb 18 1991 19:237
ACC Coach of Year ratings (IMO):

	1. Odoms, Wake Forest - at least State had 2 stars.
	2. Robinson, State - agree with .281.
	3. Jeff Jones, Va - only problem was they got too good too soon.

TTOM
17.283CoY and predictions on regular season finaleRHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Feb 18 1991 19:5347
    re: .-1
    
    Jeff Jones, COY?  You gotta be kidding.  He's got talent, and plenty of
    it.  Right now the Cav's are barely hanging over .500 in the league. 
    No way, Jose.  
    
    Robinson inherited talent to be sure, but to have them contending for
    the league race at this late stage of the year with no bench whatsoever
    is a fine accomplishment.  If they hang in and finish 3rd, he'd get my
    vote.  Dave Odom should get alot of votes too, and if Wake continues
    there strong showing, could even win it.
    
    
    Right now the regular season battle shapes up as follows:
    
    UNC		8 - 3 (Clemson,@Tech,Duke)
    DUKE	8 - 3 (State,Clemson,@UNC)
    STATE	6 - 4 (@Duke,UVa,Maryland,Wake Forest)
    
    Outlook:
    
    State	They must come away with a win Wednesday @ Durham, and
    		I can't say I'm optimistic.  If they win that one they're
    		looking at 3 straight home games, but is this team
    		consistent enough to win 'em all?  (no)
    
    		Prediction:	8-6
    
    Duke	The Nerds control their own destiny, with games remaining
    		against State and Carolina.  Win 'em both and they've got
    		the Title.  Winning @ Chapel Hill will be no easy chore
    		however.
    
    		Prediction:	10-4
    
    UNC		Carolina's trip to Atlanta has all the earmarks of a
    		disaster.  Tech will be playing for an NCAA berth; UNC
    		will be looking ahead to Duke; winning in the Thrillerdome
    		is very tough.  Hopefully they'll recover to beat the
    		Nerds in the biggest game of the year at home.
    
    		Prediction:	10-4
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
17.284could beHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughMon Feb 18 1991 20:0016
Chris, I agree with some of your predictions. If State goes 2-2 down the
stretch, I'll be glad. I can't see them winning at Duke. Beating both UVa
and Wake at home would be a lot to be thankful for. Watch them win all 3
and lose to Maryland :-(.

I notice that you buried your prediction of No Carolina over Duke in the
Dome. The Heels should win this one, as Duke hasn't showed that much on
the road.

I don't remember Va being top 15 in the preseason. But they've been there
during the season, hence the rating for Jones. They came in with Stith
and a bunch of other players. When they're on, they can go very far.
(e.g., early Duke blowout). Biggest disappointment has to be losing to
King Rice and No Carolina at home.

TTom
17.285Hoos doing just fineSHALOT::HUNTBlessed are the peacemakers ...Tue Feb 19 1991 01:2522
 I'm very pleased with Jones and the Wahoos so far.  They've got 19 wins
 now and they're still more than 2 weeks away from the ACC tournament. 
 Holland used to go into the tournament needing 1 or 2 wins to get to 20
 and then sweat out an at-large berth to the dance.
 
 Biggest disappointment was losing in double overtime to Carolina in
 Charlottesville.  Second disappointment was not even bothering to show up
 to play Ga Tech in Atlanta.   The Hoos finish with Ga Tech and Maryland at
 home and NC State on the road.  They should finish 9-5 if they play well
 in Raleigh.  8-6 otherwise.
 
 Of course, Soup will now jump in and tell us that Jones goofed in
 scheduling three straight losing road games along Tobacco Road.  This, of
 course, from the man whose team postponed its game the night the war broke
 out and then rescheduled it for back-to-back meetings.  Another brilliant
 move by Snuff ... how to take a most probable sweep of NC State and turn
 it into a guaranteed split.   All of which I'm sure sent the Baby Blue
 faithful into orgasmic hysterics.
 
 No doubt Les Robinson was grateful for the gift.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.286Truth in SchedulingRHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportTue Feb 19 1991 11:4619
    re: scheduling
    
    Deano had no control over either the cancellation or the rescheduling. 
    I don't know if Jones made the decision to schedule Notre Dame (that
    late decision is what necessitated the 'North Carolina Nightmare' trip)
    or not, but whoeever did oughta think that strategy over carefully next
    time around.
    
    I think Jones has done a solid job with the 19 wins. Realistically 
    though I'd look for an 8-6 finish (Tech,@State,Maryland) and, with 
    their high talent level, I don't think that's CoY material.  Of course
    his real mark won't be felt for several years, when his impact on
    recruiting is felt.  So far in the campaign, Virginia has one of *the*
    top recruiting classes in the USA, which is a far better sign for
    UVa hoops than their current solid record, IMO.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.287anti christ wears blueHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughTue Feb 19 1991 12:3530
Found this great satire of Nostradamus and his predictions in SOAPBOX 
(reprinted by permission). The third anti-christ is supposed to be
wearing a Blue Turban. Have you ever seen Dean Smith and Saddam
together.... 

TTom

                <<< PEAR::DUA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SOAPBOX.NOTE;3 >>>
                                  -< Soapbox >-
================================================================================
Note 62.4052                       Iraq/Kuwait                      4052 of 4055
UECKER::CHAKMAKJIAN "Shadow Nakahar of Erebouni"     21 lines  18-FEB-1991 15:41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the year 2 mill and 3
The eagle and the BEER side by side will be
and the eagle will have a cold one you see
so that all can live in peace and drink one round free

The Blue Turbaned one will lie in the sand
His soul bombed out out 8 years before to never never land.
His tanks in a shambles, his cannons unmanned
his delusions of granduers, all of them canned

So Saddam be nimble, Gorby be quick
The trickery you design just makes nosty sick
On Fahd On Assad On Bush, Major and Mubarak
Get rid of this menace before another oil slick

Armendamus
17.288Meaningless rathole...NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Feb 19 1991 12:5312
    
    Who's responsible for North Carolina scheduling The Citadel this late
    in the season?  I'm outraged!  Have they no decency?  Have they no
    concern for quality?
    
    Hey, guys, if we're resorting to scheduling arguments now, I'd say some
    serious over-analysis is taking place.  I mean, schedules may not be
    ideal, but you've still got to play 'em all to win.  This is
    basketball, not football...
    
    glenn
     
17.289Tubbs, Tark, and Deano - mighty fine companySHALOT::MEDVIDto discover war is not the answerTue Feb 19 1991 13:0810
    What Glenn is ranting about is UNC's humiliation of The Citadel last
    night, 118-50.  At one point, the score was 100-37.
    
    Real class act.  Give new meaning to the Tarhole knickname.
    
    Some credit to UNC, though: this thrashing marked their 21st straight
    20-win season...an NCAA record.  Mighty impressive regardless of how
    often they choke in the tourney.  
    
    	--dan'l
17.290Put these on the schedule to guard against losing streaksRHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportTue Feb 19 1991 14:0116
    118-50!  Heh heh.  
    
    Hey, The Citadel probablee got a nice cash bonus for this thrashing, so
    they've got nothing to complain about.
    
    Dean played the scrubs for most of this one.  The last 5 guys on our
    bench could've beaten this team, so there wasn't much else that
    could've been done, short of going 4C at the 2 minute mark of this
    ugly, ugly affair.
    
    For the record though, there were only 2 guaranteed wins on our
    schedule (Cornell & Citadel), which is an infinitesimally small number
    compared to most of our Division 1 bretheren.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.291Cadets are overseas!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSNew rules are the Pits!Tue Feb 19 1991 17:296
17.292Who woulda though Tech would beat Arizona & UVa? (Not me.)RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Feb 20 1991 11:3115
    Add this one to your 'UVa 90-91 Lowlights' film Ketch.  The Cavs are
    just not shooting the basketball well right now.  They missed a slew of
    shots they normally make.  
    
    Credit Tech with a solid performance (Kenny Anderson had 33 (14-26) and
    numerous rebounds and steals), but I think Virginia is really lacking
    confidence right now.
    
    On the bright side though, Anthony Oliver returned and played quite a
    bit (he looked a tad on the heavy side to me) if not very well, and
    there's still time to recover that confidence that was lost somewhere
    around Durham, Chapel Hill, and Winston-Salem.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.293Big 6HBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughWed Feb 20 1991 12:2010
FWIW, Ga Tech won 73-60.

In the USA Today power ratings, the ACC has 6 schools in the top 25: 
No Carolina (2), Duke (6), Virginia (16), Ga Tech (17), Wake (22) and
State (25).

If only they would quit beating themselves I'd feel better about our
chances of getting all 6 into the NCAAs.

TTom
17.294We'll have 6 TTom. Take it to the bank...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Feb 20 1991 12:301
    
17.295ughHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughWed Feb 20 1991 12:376
>                -< We'll have 6 TTom.  Take it to the bank... >-

We had a chance; but now, it looks real shaky ;-)


TTom
17.296Good riddance, TechSHALOT::HUNTBlessed are the peacemakers ...Wed Feb 20 1991 12:4211
    Blech.  *I* could shoot better than that.
    
    The Hoos just do not match up well against Ga Tech.   No excuses for a
    13-point loss at home in late February.
    
    I sincerely hope the Hoos have seen the last of Georgia Tech this
    school year.  After their football team popped the Hoos fantasy bubble
    and following this hoops sweep, I ain't sending no Christmas cards down
    to Hot Lanta.
    
    Bob Hunt
17.297Final Four = All ACC? (UNLV stumbles early)WMOIS::REEVE_CWed Feb 20 1991 13:5511
    Big win for Tech, should insure another NCAA berth. I think Tech has
    proven in the last couple of games that they can not only play in the
    tournament, but go far. Unfortunately, they showed in Maryland that
    they are capable of losing in the first round. It was nice to get a
    decent game from Geiger. His performance is pivotal to Tech's success.
    
    Mr Hunt- Don't forget the ACC tournament game between Tech and UVa last
    year as you commiserate UVa's fate at Tech's good fortune :^)
    
    Chris
    
17.298Gloat now, Reeve. Your turn will come.SHALOT::HUNTBlessed are the peacemakers ...Wed Feb 20 1991 15:1710
 Shut up, Reeve.  Just shut up.
 
 Actually, now that Ga Tech holds both the ACC grid and hoops titles, they
 have a very legitimate claim to the ACC's "flagship program" honor.
 
 Of course, Carolina fans will have a collective stroke contemplating just
 how far they've fallen compared to this upstart program from The Peachtree
 State.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.299Pack attack!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSNew rules are the Pits!Wed Feb 20 1991 20:226
    
    	NCAA> State and Tech on the bubble...State could really help
    themselves tonight with a win against Duke! Hope for the best, fear the
    worst..
    
    B.A.
17.300Tech IS FlagshipWMOIS::REEVE_CThu Feb 21 1991 12:495
    Tech's baseball team was #1 in one of the polls last week (now #5), and
    the golf team was #1 in the country in the last poll I saw (2-3 weeks
    ago). Take heart Mr Hunt, Virginia's women's hoop team is #1!
    
    Chris
17.301Duke winsHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughThu Feb 21 1991 13:376
Duke beat State last night, 72-65. The game was a series of Duke getting
ahead by 8 or so points and State catching up.

Duke has a 1/2 game lead on No Carolina for the current league standings.

TTom
17.302GT, you've come a long way baby.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 21 1991 13:4913
    *If* Tech were to win the ACC Championship (long odds, but they're
    capable) they'd wear the crown of hoops and football champion in the
    same season.  Anybody know the last time that happened?
    
    Carolina has snuck up to #6 in the country and should advance a spot
    given the Syracuse loss and assuming they can beat Clemson Saturday.
    It's conceivable they could get a #1 seed in a regional, but I'd say
    the odds are against it.  It would probably require winning the rest
    of our regular season games *and* the ACC Tourney.  We might pull of
    one or the other, but both would be asking an awful lot.
    
    
    - ACC Chris 
17.303No Carolina could be top East seedHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughThu Feb 21 1991 14:019
In yesterday's USA Today they had 3 writers predict the seedings.
Unanimously, they chose UNLV for the West, Ohio St for the Midwest,
Arkansas for the Southeast and by a majority of 2-1 No Carolina for the
East (Indiana got 1 vote).

Personally, I'd like to see the Heels seeded #1 so it'll be very clear
when they choke.

TTom
17.304I'd vote for Duke - they've got political clout :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 21 1991 14:348
    re: .-1
    
    Last I checked TTom the writers don't seed the teams.  And until
    that Duke AD gets off the NCAA selection committee Carolina will
    continue to get the short end of the seeding stick.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.305Current Champion in Both SportsWMOIS::REEVE_CThu Feb 21 1991 16:1710
    The last team to win the ACC football and basketball championships in the
    same season was Georgia Tech last year (1990). They beat Duke for the
    hoops title in March and clinched the football title with a win over
    Maryland in November. The last team to do it BEFORE Tech was Maryland
    in 1982 (I think). Incidentally, Bobby Ross coached both football
    teams.
    
    How quickly they forget! And you an Atlanta resident to boot!
    
    Chris
17.306I suspect it was UNC. :^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 21 1991 17:307
    Uh uh Chris.  I'm talking about during the same *academic* season, not
    the same calendar season.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.307weekend hoopsHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughFri Feb 22 1991 11:0912
Weekend schedule:

	Saturday:
		Wake at Maryland
		Virginia at State
		Clemson at No Carolina

	Sunday:
		Louisville at Ga Tech
		Duke at Arizona

TTom
17.308Let's hope the jinx continues ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 22 1991 11:598
    With the Huckster (tm) loss Carolina *could* move up to #4 in the polls
    next week *if* they can beat Clemson Saturday.
    
    I'm not gonna say Clemson has never won a game in Chapel Hill.  Not
    gonna say it ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.309ACC weekend resultsHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughMon Feb 25 1991 12:0716
Great comeback win for the Pack on Saturday against the 'Hoos. Rodney
Monroe had 30 of his 32 points in the second half: he outscored the
entire Virginia team for the half. Chris Corchianni had 8 assists to move
within 1 of tying Sherman Doulgas' career assist mark. Final score was
83-76. They're listed at 27th in the USA Today-CNN poll.

No Carolina also beat Clemson at home and moved to #4.

Duke lost in 2 OTs at Arizona and were voted to #8.

Ga Tech beat up on Louisville, 82-69. They're listed at 29th.

Meanwhile Wake lost at Maryland and won at home against the woeful
Clemson Tigers. The loss may jeopardize Wake's invitation to the NCAAs.

TTom
17.311Lady Hoos are awesomeSHALOT::HUNTSame Old World OrderMon Feb 25 1991 13:4822
 Yes, the Lady Hoos are 26-1, top-ranked, and have just completed the ACC's
 first ever perfect record in conference play.  They finished 14-0 in
 conference play.   This included what a lot of people are calling the
 greatest women's college basketball game ever played ... a triple overtime
 thriller over NC State about 4 or 5 weeks ago.
 
 Their only loss was to 2nd ranked Penn State by a point on a three-point
 prayer shot at the buzzer.  This was in early January and Penn State then
 lost their only game of the year a few weeks later.  That's why Penn State
 dropped back down to No. 2.
 
 The Lady Hoos are loaded.  They've got twin sisters Heather and Heidi
 Burge and Dawn Staley.   Staley may very well be the national player of
 the year.
 
 The mens' team is a having a late-season slide in conference play.   They
 play Towson State tonight and should pick up their 20th win.  A week ago,
 people had the Hoos as a lock for the NCAA tournament.   Now they're 6-7
 in conference and they had better see next weekend's season finale against
 Maryland as a *MUST* game if they want to keep that "lock" status.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.312Virginia in; Wake maybe?AUNTB::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughMon Feb 25 1991 13:5311
Forgot to mention that Virginia is still in the Top 25 - #24. Usually,
when you're in the Top 25 at this late in the season, you're a "lock". Of
course beating Maryland and maybe winning a game in the tournament
wouldn't hurt.

Right now, IMHO, No Carolina, Duke, Virginia, State and Ga Tech are
absolutely in. Wake has the problem of being the 6th team from the
conference as well as losing on the road. Winning at State would lock
them in as would a win or 2 in the conference tourney.

TTom
17.313Marylands shoulda rolled over for the good of the league!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 25 1991 14:4715
    The state of North Carolina has been very, very, very, very, Very,
    VERY, **VERY** unkind of Virginia basketball this year.  Very unkind.
    A 20-point lead in the 2nd half went for naught as Rodney Monroe
    absolutely caught fire.  The man was simply unstoppable.  Truly one of
    the best individual efforts in a half of basketball in ACC history.
    
    As TTom points out the most significant game over the weekend as far as
    NCAA Tournament impact was Wake's loss @ Maryland.  They've got
    16 wins and will pick up #17 tonight against New Hampshire.  A loss
    @ State brings them to 17-10 - definite bubble material.  I'd say
    they need a 1st round win in the ACC Tourney, otherwise it's 'Hello,
    NIT.'  (First round opponent will be either State, Tech, or UVa.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.314STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishMon Feb 25 1991 14:4913
    ACChris,
    
    What's with these numbers?????
    
    		Pts	Reb	Position
    JR Reid 	13.1	6.6	Center
    JR Reid	 9.5	6.4	Power Forward
    
    Didn't you claim we'd start to see the real JR when he switched to his
    natural position(power forward)?  What's the cause?  Didn't Dean teach
    him enough fundamentals to survive in the NBA?
    
    Cap
17.315Dean, put this one on the recruiting tape. :^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 25 1991 15:0018
    Anybody catch halftime of the Duke @ Arizona game where they
    interviewed Harold "Baby Jordan" Miner, the USC guard.  The interview
    went something like this:
    
    Q: Harold, do you think people would know you if you played for
       a school that gets more publicity?
    
    A: Yes.  If I went to North Carolina or ... [pause] ... [pause]
       one of them other schools I'd probablee_be gettin' alot more
       attention.
    
    Commentary:		North Carolina: THE #1 college basketball program
    			in the USA.
    
    Nuf said.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.316CAM::WAYMon Feb 25 1991 15:2926
What happened inside Harold's CPU during this interview:

    
>    Q: Harold, do you think people would know you if you played for
>       a school that gets more publicity?

Init:	Call up recognition routine.  Define terms.
	Make judgement based on interrogative statement as parsed....

>    A: Yes.  If I went to North Carolina or ... [pause] ... [pause]
>       one of them other schools I'd probablee_be gettin' alot more
>       attention.

Handle_Answer:
	Read in from Schools_List first item.
	Read in from Schools_LIst second...[ALARM, ALARM - HARDWARD INTERRUPT!]

	CPU IN DANGER OF POWER SHORTAGE - LOSS OF ELECTROLYTE.  
	REPLENISH, REPLENISH.

	(Brain calls up reserve electrolytes)

	Draw conclusion.
	Finish sentence.

    
17.3177221::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Mon Feb 25 1991 15:599
>    Commentary: North Carolina: THE #1 college basketball program
>    			in the USA.
    
    .....up until the NCAA tournament.  Actually it is a sad commentary if
    compared to the number of championship teams the Tarheels have
    produced.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
   
17.318At the front of everybody's brain ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 25 1991 16:058
    Has nothing to do with championships D-boy.  Has to do with the *first*
    program to pop into a kids brain when he thinks of big-time college
    basketball.
    
    I take this as_a compliment of the highest order.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.319NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Feb 25 1991 16:125
    
    Three hundred plus ring-less Dean alums cain't be wrong!
    
    glenn
    
17.320QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Mon Feb 25 1991 16:2410
I suspect he was thinking of NC State, anyway.

That Duke game was kind of goofy, wasn't it?  Some fairly excellent
hoops, interspersed with some of the sloppiest crap I've seen in awhile.
At the end, Arizona was just pitiful from the line, and as the first
overtime was winding down, I thought Duke had it for sure. Then they
came out for the 2nd overtime, and it looked like Duke had decided to
call it a day and catch the plane. No spark whatsoever.

Mike JN
17.321;-)SHALOT::MEDVIDgod is war,TV preacher tell me moreMon Feb 25 1991 16:278
    That's only because Kentucky's on probation.  8-)
    
    And he probably didn't mention Duke because it and "them" other
    schools prefer that you have good grammar when entering.  
    
    Commentary: UNC will take anybody.
    
    	--dan'l
17.322STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishMon Feb 25 1991 16:366
    >Commentary: UNC will take anybody.
    
    That especially rings true when taking into account Dean's 'whoring'
    pursuit of academic deficient Kenny Williams.
    
    Cap
17.323ACCrook caught red-handed AGAIN !!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewMon Feb 25 1991 17:4320
    I saw the Baby Miner interview and here is how it REALLY went:
    
    
    TV Person: "Harold, do you feel that if you'd gone to one of the
    		established programs that's on television a lot, a
    		program like, say, North Carolina, that you would get
    		more publicity?"
    
    Baby:      "Sure.  But I'm happy here at SC and feel that I made 
    		the right decision."
    
    
    Commentary: 
    
    1) Television will seize every opportunity to further overhype the 
       Star Heels.
    
    2) ACCrook will, too, and he won't let the facts stand in his way.
    
    Big10 Tom	
17.324queer resemblanceANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewMon Feb 25 1991 17:4711
    I have a problem.  I've been all ready and set to go and leap onto
    the North Carolina State Wolfpack bandwagon.  I like this team alot.
    But, every time I git real turned on watching Corch and Guges and
    Rod the camera pans over to that new coach and I go limp.  Main!  
    The guy's a daid ringer for 'Snuffy Smif' - minus the jiggling jowls
    and liver spots and lizard-like slitty eyes and 15 years or so, of 
    course.  But, I'm sorry, *this* hoops fan ain't gonna hop onto ANY
    bandwagon with a guy who looks like he was cloned down at the idolatry
    factory....
    
    Big10 Tom
17.325You're right: Les == Dean (minus 600 wins of course) Haw Haw!!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 25 1991 17:549
    Liar!  
    
    FACT.  Baby Miner initiated the North Carolina comment.
    
    FACT.  Baby Miner couldn't think of any other schools to mention.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.326CAM::WAYMon Feb 25 1991 18:0410
>    Rod the camera pans over to that new coach and I go limp.  Main!  
>    The guy's a daid ringer for 'Snuffy Smif' - minus the jiggling jowls
>    and liver spots and lizard-like slitty eyes and 15 years or so, of 

This is sheer poetry.  I read this and almost lost my soda all over
my keyboard.  The immediate picture this prose created in ma brain
was too funny.....

'Saw

17.327STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishMon Feb 25 1991 18:1716
    The only reason N. Carolina was even mentioned in that interview 
    was due to the comparisons to Michael Jordan(i.e Baby Jordan which
    was his nickname).  If Jordan had gone to Duke than Duke would
    have been used as the Glamor school example.
    
    This embarrassing stooping and groveling for compliments about the 
    North Carolina program is embarrassing.  You'd think that someone
    who talks about how great and honorable the program was wouldn't 
    put on such an embarrassing display of groveling for compliments at
    every mention of North Carolina.
    
    Trying to extract compliments from that trivial interview is really 
    reaching.....
    
    Cap	
    
17.328But we loves him just the sameSHALOT::HUNTSame Old World OrderMon Feb 25 1991 19:0211
17.329Which is it?RAVEN1::B_ADAMSRocks are hard to come by!Mon Feb 25 1991 19:1111
    
    	T...
    
    	Do you like teams because of their coach's looks? or the way a team
    performs on the court?
    
    	I'll take Coach Robinson any day over Smith...even though they do
    look alike.
    
    B.A.
    
17.330Corchianni owns assistsHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughTue Feb 26 1991 12:084
Chris Corchianni is now the NCAA career assist leader. He had 13 in
State's road victory at Tennessee, 90-82.

TTom
17.331Goal this year: Avoid Vegas at all costsRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Feb 26 1991 13:5724
    Since there's no longer any doubt who is going to win the NCAA
    Championship this year the best you can hope to do is reach the Final
    4.  In other words, you simply MUST stay out of the West bracket to
    have a prayer.
    
    Right now it looks like Ohio State and Arkansas will get #1 seeds
    and thus guarantee avoidance of the West.  The remaining #1 seed
    seems to be between Carolina, Duke, and Syracuse.  Should be
    interesting, but trust me on one point:  If Duke fails to win the ACC
    Championship and the regular season crown (and thereby not get the East
    #1 seed) they ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT be sent out West.  I'll guarantee it. 
    The Duke AD on the selection committee will see to that.  If the same
    fate befalls Carolina though, I'll bet dollars to donuts we'll be sent
    West.
    
    One final thought.  The best Duke or Carolina could hope for is to get
    the #1 seed in the East, yet the Southeast regionals are in Atlanta and
    Charlotte.  Given the higher power ratings of both of these clubs I
    believe Arkansas should go to the East and Carolina/Duke to the
    Southeast.  If Syracuse gets the #1 seed I'd leave them in the East and
    Arkansas in the Southeast.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.332Money will decide who goes westSHALOT::MEDVIDgod is war,TV preacher tell me moreTue Feb 26 1991 14:1018
    Chris, interesting observations.  I disagree with you about Duke not
    being sent west if they don't win the ACC.  The selection committee
    would be drooling over the TV revenue generated by a UNLV Duke rematch
    in the regionals.  Money will dictate that move, not the Duke honcho on the
    committee.
    
    For a change, Hurley had a good game on the road...or anywhere for that
    matter...against Arizona.  The rest of the team let him down.  If
    Hurley plays like that against UNC, Duke might win.  Otherwise, Rice
    will dictate the game and the win for the heels.
    
    I've got tickets for the regionals in Charlotte.  I hope to be watching
    Duke and not UNC and it has nothing to do with the teams.  Rather, I
    would want to be surrounded by intelligent, sophisticated Duke fans
    than the rednecked, pickup-driving, low life that come out to support
    UNC.  
    
    	--dan'l
17.333duke, no carolina: about the sameHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughTue Feb 26 1991 14:1816
First of all, I totally disagree with "the party's over" thesis about
UNLV having it locked up. Have you heard the term upset?

Secondly, Knorr's prediction is dependent upon his disdain for Duke at
how he perceives they did No Carolina in.

Thirdly, in reply to Dan'l, the Dukesters have 2 modes of operation. When
things are going well for them they are cute, witty, urbane and all them
good things. When things start going bad, they are none of the above. In
fact, a losing Duke crowd is a lot like a losing No Carolina crowd: they
are mostly interested in getting out of the arena. I had the distinct
pleasure of sitting amongst the Duke students for last year's semifinal
in which Virginia beat No Carolina and Ga Tech beat Duke. At the ends of
the games, they looked a whole lot alike.

TTom
17.334Rematch of a blowout will produce another blowoutRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Feb 26 1991 14:1812
    > the selection committee would be drooling over the TV revenue
    > generated by a UNLV Duke rematch
    
    If I were a marketing person for Budweiser or somebody I'd demand my
    commercials get air-time in the first 10 minutes of this rematch, cause
    that's about as long as it would be a contest worth watching.
    
    Vegas blasted them by 30 last year and they're significantly stronger
    this time around.  Duke's about the same, maybe a little weaker.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.335Duke in East, UNC in SoutheastSHALOT::HUNTSame Old World OrderTue Feb 26 1991 15:2613
    Duke will get the No. 2 seed in the East Region.  That's where they've
    been the last 3 years and have beaten the No. 1 seed each year to
    advance to the Final Four.  In 1988 they beat Temple, 1989 Georgetown,
    and 1990 UConn.
    
    Carolina will be in the Southeast Region.  Take it to the bank.  The
    NCAA won't be able to resist giving the baby bluesters an edge in both
    Atlanta *and* Charlotte.
    
    TTom, you going to the ACC tournament this year, too ???   A buddy of
    mine called me the other night with the good news that he's got a pair.
    
    Bob Hunt
17.336Something tells me this might not work out ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Feb 26 1991 15:5110
    > A buddy of mine called me the other night with the good news 
    > that he's got a pair.
    
    So who_ya gonna take with ya, BobHunt?  (Hint: I'm available!)
    
    [Picture in your mind, ACC fans, BobHunt & ACC Chris sitting
     side-by-side, mano-a-mano, catching the ACC Tourney! Ooooo ....]
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.337yeahboyHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughTue Feb 26 1991 15:526
Yeah, Bob, I'll be there. It's a grand total of across the street from
the office. Last year, I didn't try for a ticket to the first sessions on
Friday but managed good seats to the semis and finals. 

See ya there.
TTom
17.3387221::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Tue Feb 26 1991 15:556
 > A buddy of mine called me the other night with the good news 
 > that he's got a pair.
    
     Is there a James Worthy joke in this ?  
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
17.339CAM::WAYBiff's Golf Cart of DeathTue Feb 26 1991 16:516
Gee, what with ACC Chris talking about UNLV having it locked, and
what a "victory" it would be to get to the Final Four, it sounds
like he's setting us up for another North Carolina EXCELLENT LOSS(tm)...

Couldn't resist 8^)
'Saw
17.340Seriously, we'd have a good timeSHALOT::HUNTSame Old World OrderTue Feb 26 1991 16:589
    Believe me, Soup, I'd love to go with you to the ACC tourney.  We'd
    have a ball.   I'd like to sit right in the middle of the UNC rooting
    section and start singing the "Na Na Na Na Hey Hey Hey ..." song
    immediately following the Heels' inevitable early exit.
    
    Alas, my college fratre's offer was for he and I to attend.   Perhaps
    another day ...
    
    Bob Hunt
17.341FWIWRAVEN1::B_ADAMSGet a piece of the ROCK!Tue Feb 26 1991 17:309
    Players of the week-
    
    	Rodney Monroe, State- 30 points in 2nd half to out score the enitre
    Va team.
    
    	Rodney Rogers,Wake- 23 points, 8 rebounds, 6 steals, 4 assist in
    the game against Clemson was named rookie of the week.
    
    B.A.
17.342Friday, 3/8 == Vacation Day for ACC Chris!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Feb 26 1991 17:505
    We'd have a good time, no doubt, but me_thinks it would be a whole lot
    better if the state of North Carolina stopped treating the Cavs so rough!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.343Possible get together?SHALOT::MEDVIDgod is war,TV preacher tell me moreTue Feb 26 1991 17:548
>               <<< Note 17.342 by RHETT::KNORR "Carolina Blue" >>>
>                -< Friday, 3/8 == Vacation Day for ACC Chris! >-
    
    Does this imply that you are coming to Charlotte!?!  Or are you just
    going home to watch the games on TV?
    
    	--dan'l
    
17.344At home in front of ESPNRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Feb 26 1991 18:017
    re: .-1
    
    No Ticket == No Get Together.  Now, if you Charlotte types could strike
    a deal for me it might be a different story!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.345easy planHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughTue Feb 26 1991 18:479
Yeah, I've got a deal. You come to Charlotte, you  go to the Coliseum,
and you scaclp a ticket.

We provide directions to the Coliseum. 

Anyway, it'll be easy to get a ticket when No Carolin loses. You know how
them Heels is Heels fans and not sports fans, anyway.

TTom
17.346WARNINGANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewTue Feb 26 1991 18:508
    this year 'Crook, yosure you don't rob a_entire notesfile of
    innocent contest entrants of their human dignity.
    
    And Bob, of *course* the Star Heels will git a_all ACC venue, as
    they do every year.  This is cuz the selection committee knows how
    much your average ACC main luvs to see the good Reverend choke.
    just make sure that this year you don't go off and rob a_entire
    not10 Tom
17.347huh?HBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughTue Feb 26 1991 19:287
Yo T,

Where's the decoder ring for .346? You usual eloquent self has been
transmitted as a_incoherency. And I think I know what you're saying, at
least the part about luving to see the Rev choke, which I do.

TTom
17.348SECURITY VIOLATION!!! ALERT! ALERT!!!!!111RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Feb 26 1991 19:354
    Somebodies usin' MrT's terminal!  (Maybe Spud ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.349Future Tournament Format Is BogusSHALOT::HUNTSame Old World OrderTue Feb 26 1991 20:2654
 Time for a little serious discussion here ...  Next year when the Florida
 State Seminoles reject the Big Ten and join the ACC, the conference needs
 to modify the ACC tournament format.  So far the ADs have come up with a
 proposed new format that I think stinks.  Here it is ...
 
 Teams are seeded 1 through 9, as you would expect.
 
 Team 1, the regular season champion gets an automatic bye all the way into
 the semifinal round.  To win the title, the top seed needs to win just 2
 games on the final two days of play.
 
 Teams 2, 3, 4, and 5 receive a bye into the round of 8.  Each of these
 teams would have to win 3 straight games in three days to take it all. 
 This is the "standard" Friday, Saturday, Sunday format.
 
 Teams 6, 7, 8, and 9 play each other to decide the 7th and 8th seeds. 
 These two games (6 vs 9 and 7 vs 8) take place on Thursday.   These teams
 need then to win four straight games on 4 straight days to win it all.
 
 After the Thursday games, on Friday, 2 pairs off against the winner of 6
 vs 9, 3 pairs off against 7 or 8 and then 4 and 5 square off.   These
 three winners then join No. 1 for the final four team square off on
 Saturday and Sunday.
 
 Personally, I think this is a ridiculous format.  No team will ever win 4
 games in a row against the higher and better rested seeds.  If I were the
 coach of one of those teams, I'd blow off the tournament and start getting
 the kids ready for whatever postseason play might be next.
 
 And to give No. 1 a free ride into the semis is just as absurd.  The
 conference winner should have to win three games.  Period.  {Note: This
 year is an exception since Maryland is on probation.}
 
 Two alternatives come to mind ... First, send No. 9 home for the summer
 and we'll see you next fall.  Hey, you don't like it, don't finish last. 
 This gets us back to an 8-4-2-1 format.
 
 Second is make 8 play 9 to see who gets the eighth seed but make them play
 it on Tuesday (maybe Wednesday) night so that the winner has a chance to
 catch a breath before Friday.   Play it at No. 8's home court.  The winner
 would still have to win 4 games but they'd be spread out over a period of
 6 days instead of 4 days.
 
 Either of these two alternatives is better than the plan they're kicking
 around now.   The one they've got now is designed purely to make this a
 4-day event at the expense of the kids and it gives no chance to anybody
 but the top 5 seeds.  Not to mention higher ticket package prices and more
 tube dollars.
 
 With all the ACC hot air at the NCAA convention about not forcing the
 athletes to devote too much time to their sport, this is completely
 two-faced and hypocritical.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.350It's all on T.V.RAVEN1::B_ADAMSGet a piece of the ROCK!Tue Feb 26 1991 21:3513
17.351ACC #1HBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughWed Feb 27 1991 12:1116
ACC looking good in the ratings:

Conference power ratings:

	ACC		86.30
	Big 8		85.97
	Big East	83.63
	Big 10		82.81
	SEC		82.37

6 ACC teams are in the top 25:

	No Carolina #3, Duke #5, Ga Tech #13, NC State #19,
	Virginia #21, Wake Forest #22.

TTom
17.352Anybody know where next years ACC Tourney is?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Feb 27 1991 12:3011
    Good points Ketch.  I don't like the new format either, but I can tell
    you the motivation behind rejecting your 2nd alternative:  $$$$.  The
    Big East does this - the 2 last place teams play each other with the
    winner going on to the tournament and the loser going home.  Trouble is
    NOBODY goes to this game.  It's a Loser Bowl, if you were.
    
    Still better than the format they come up with though.  I'd personally
    opt for the last place team just not getting an invite.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.353Not the Big East modelSHALOT::HUNTSame Old World OrderWed Feb 27 1991 13:0720
17.354The SolutionWMOIS::REEVE_CWed Feb 27 1991 14:0514
    
    re- tournament format:
    
    Boot Clemson out of the ACC and into the SEC where they belong. Then
    there would be only 8 teams to worry about. 
    
    re- GT #13 rating:
    
    Whose rating is that? Much as I like it, Tech is not the 13th best team
    in the country and certainly doesn't deserve to be rated above NC
    State, who has kicked Tech's butt twice.
    
    Chris
    
17.355Sagarin-USA TodayHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughWed Feb 27 1991 14:423
The ratings are in USA Today and done by Jeff Sagarin.

TTom
17.356It was a Joke Right?? Right???CSTEAM::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Wed Feb 27 1991 15:5912
    Chris,
    
    Ya beat me to the keyboard.....
    
    GT is (until Kenny leaps) my #2 choice but when I saw that #13
    
    I shook my haid and said "How the 'ell did they get THERE??"
    
    Ah agree totally with your statement!
    
    Kev
    
17.357Still more ...SHALOT::HUNTSame Old World OrderWed Feb 27 1991 16:2533
 More on the future format of the tournament ...
 
 Seems as though it's the ACC coaches themselves who are hottest for this
 new format wherein the top seed plays two games to win it all, the second,
 third, fourth, and fifth seeds play 3 games, and the bottom four seeds
 have to win 4 straight in 4 days to take it all.
 
 Dean Smith was quoted as saying ...
 
    "Anything we can do that gives more meaning to the regular season is
    good for the game.  Teams will be playing for position in the
    tournament as they do in the NBA playoffs.  There's always a lot of
    interest in who's going to make the playoffs and who's going to have
    the home-court advantage."
 
 If anyone can figure out what Smith is talking about here, please let me
 know.   The teams now fight for tournament position and this doesn't
 change for next year, either.  What is at question here is the tournament
 format itself, Dean, and there is no home-court advantage in the
 tournament.
 
 Interestingly enough, both ESPN and Raycom Sports are opposed to the new
 format.  ESPN wants the full four-game Friday schedule with the top eight
 teams involved.  In fact, they've already got that air time scheduled for
 next year.  Raycom Sports feels that it won't be able to sell the Thursday
 package to the affiliate stations in the ACC broadcast areas.
 
 So, the ACC might lose money instead.   And the ACC brass is insisting
 that it's the coaches who want this new format.
 
 Very strange.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.358maybeHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughWed Feb 27 1991 16:587
> If anyone can figure out what Smith is talking about here, please let me
> know.   

"Remember the regular season. Forget the post season tournaments."


TTom
17.359has to beCHIEFF::CHILDSI was testing the bounds of realityWed Feb 27 1991 17:437
"Remember the regular season. Forget the post season tournaments."


 "Because I usually choke in post season play, without my hometown refs"..

 -- Dean Smith
17.360Thought soSHALOT::HUNTSame Old World OrderWed Feb 27 1991 20:3710
17.361State wins 20/20/20HBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughThu Feb 28 1991 12:0029
Big win for the Pack last night! Gee, it's fun saying that! 
NC State 114, Maryland 91.

Chris Corchianni moved with 8 of the magic 1000 mark for assists with a
20 assist performance. That total set a school record and tied the ACC
record. Most of these went not to Rodney Monroe who had foul problems and
24 points but to sophomore Migjen Bakalli who had 27 points including 8 3
pointers in a row.

Let me stop an instant rathole here and say that Bakalli is not a hired
gun. He's local talent from Belmont, NC, (home of Belmont Abbey). Lives
there. We're not talking Rodl here.

In other action, Duke beat Clemson, 79-62, and Wake Forest beat New
Hampshire, 65-49.

Tonight, No Carolina tries to get back the 1/2 game lead Duke has on the
league. Here's how it looks:

	Duke		10-3
	No Carolina	 9-3
	State		 8-5
	Wake Forest	 7-6
	Ga Tech		 6-7
	Virginia	 6-7
	Maryland	 4-9 (ineligible)
	Clemson		 1-12

TTom
17.362No way can Carolina be considered the favorite tonight :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 28 1991 16:5817
17.363Tech by 3WMOIS::REEVE_CThu Feb 28 1991 18:5112
    James Munlyn is clueless. Cremins has babied him for five years and the
    guy has just never produced. He was the starting center for the first
    4-5 games a few years back and was a total bust. He has had spot starts
    at other times due to various injuries. His total ineptitude forced
    Cremins to play Tom Hammonds at center, screwing up team chemistry and
    costing Hammonds a setback in his development. I wish Munlyn HAD gone
    to UNC, because he's basically a wasted scholarship.
    
    I think what Domalick was referring to is that he will light it up from
    3pt land tonight. If he comes out hot-WATCH OUT. 
    
    Chris
17.364Almost Close AGAIN !!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewThu Feb 28 1991 19:3715
    >Where's the decoder ring for .346?  You usual eloquents self has
    >been transmitted as a_incoherency...
    
    Sorry, but when I peeled that one off I was halfway throught a 
    family-size bottle of Robitussin DM (tm) and wasn't thinking too
    clearly.  I'm better now.
    
    Btw, congrats to the Almost Close for setting new standards last
    weekend at the Almost Close to sportsmanship exhibited at the
    conference track meet where one sprinter taunted another after 
    breaking his record, only to be bludgeoned in the haid with the
    2nd place trophy on the podium afterwards.  After a trip to the
    the hospital they were able to, er, patch things up.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.365unproductive coughHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughThu Feb 28 1991 19:5910
T,

Better watch out for that synthetic narco-type cough syrup. Lord knows
what that might lead to.

I'm glad you're feeling better, at least good enough to appreciate the
track meet bludgeoning. I'm sure Cap will keep us straight on the
charges and convictions.

TTom
17.366QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Thu Feb 28 1991 20:009
17.367CHIEFF::CHILDSI was testing the bounds of realityThu Feb 28 1991 20:2014
17.368State vs ClemsonRAVEN1::B_ADAMSGet a piece of the ROCK!Thu Feb 28 1991 21:037
    re-few,
    
    	The two runners were from State and Clemson..The player from State
    hit the tiger on the haid(tm) with the trophy he had just won. The two
    had been at each others throats all day long.
    
    B.A.
17.369RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOWest Regional, I be there!Thu Feb 28 1991 22:104
    I love it, what a great, classic story - who said track wasn't a
    contact sport ;-)
    
    JD
17.370Heck, the ACC is better than 'rasslin...AXIS::ROBICHAUDIndustrial Strength NoterFri Mar 01 1991 11:171
    
17.371Summary: UNC was very good and Tech was very badRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Mar 01 1991 12:3622
    Basketball is a very strange game.  Who woulda thought Tech would come
    out and play one of the worst halves in Bobby Cremins career when
    Carolina is in town and they're saying 'bye bye' to their seniors and
    one of their greatest talent ever?!  
    
    For the record Tech took 40 first half shots and made [gulp!] NINE of 
    'em.  Barry was OH-FOR-NINE.  Kenny Anderson stunk up the joint big-time, 
    lending credence to recent noters leaving him off they're All-America 
    squads.  
    
    Credit Carolina with solid defense and very good offensive execution. 
    I was particularly impressed with our 2nd half performance.  Just when
    things were starting to go flat we ran the offense and invariably got
    good shots.  Lynch was big on the boards; Hubie Davis hit some outside
    shots to make up for a bad shooting night for Fox.
    
    Bottom line of course is that there WILL BE NO TIE for the Regular
    Season ACC Champeen.  It'll be either Duke or UNC, and it'll be decided
    in the Dean Dome.  :^)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3725 blind players??? is that legal? CST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Fri Mar 01 1991 14:1611
    <set mode == silly statement>
    
    But ACC Chris, if you disregard the fact that Tech threw up more bricks
    than you'll find in the Empire State Building and that they musta been
    shooting (chucking?) with their eyes closed, you gotta admit they
    played one heck of a game!  In fact, IMO, they outplayed the
    baby-blues!
    
    ;^)
    
    Kev
17.373A good analogyRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Mar 01 1991 15:0810
    re: .-1
    
    To say that Tech outplayed Carolina last night in every phase
    except for shooting is roughly equivalent to Saddam's hilarious claims
    of victory in the Persian Gulf War!
    
    ;^)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.374am I a GREAT straight-man or what?? ;^)CST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Fri Mar 01 1991 15:171
    
17.375Heels by a bushel!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSGet a piece of the ROCK!Fri Mar 01 1991 18:477
    
    	Man, the networks are going to love Sat's game..No 1 on the line,
    Duke vs U.N.C. what a matchup! One problem.....Dean has already paid
    the refs! There's no way in Iraq that N.C will lose this game! Take the
    heels and the points...
    
    B.A.
17.376It's a big one, no doubt.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Mar 01 1991 19:3719
    > networks are going to love Sat's game..
    
    No doubt that the networks will love this one, but the game's on
    Sunday, not Saturday.
    
    The stakes don't get much higher.  The winner is the regular season
    champ and gets a bye in the 1st round of the tourney.
    
    
    GO
    
    TAR
    
    HEELS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    (insert sound of Carolina pep band breaking into fight song)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.377Duke beats No CarolinaHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughMon Mar 04 1991 11:0220
Tough weekend:

State came out thinking they would beat Wake and lost. Too much Rodney 
Rogers and too much perimeter accuracy.

Virginia lost at home to Maryland. If that's not bad enough, the Women 
Wahoos (is that what they're called, Bob?) lost to *CLEMSON*. That's 
right, folks. They'll play the Women Pack for the championship.

Kenny Anderson successfully kept his stock falling as he and Ga Tech lost 
at Clemson.

No Carolina played at about the pace of Eric Montross and lost at home to 
Duke, 83-77. The Heels didn't look that good.

Make it 4-0 for the dogs. Good way to lead into the tournament. Oh yeah, 
Duke wins the regular season trophy (not championship), the top seed in 
the tournament and the first round bye.

TTom
17.378The ultimate whiney nerd Hurley *keeled* us :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 04 1991 11:3511
    FOUR (4) ACC games over the weekend; FOUR (4) upsets.  Only one of the
    upsets was pulled by a home team.  Is it safe to say this was one of
    the wackiest weekends in ACC history?
    
    [insert ACC Chris griting teeth]
    
    Congrats to the Nerds.  They were clearly the better team yesterday.  I
    congratulate our players though for making a gritty comeback.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.379good bye KingHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughMon Mar 04 1991 11:4010
>             -< The ultimate whiney nerd Hurley *keeled* us  :^( >-

Ample testimony to how bad the Heels looked yesterday.

I guess it was an appropriate last home game and last regular season ACC
game for King Rice. A somehow fitting send off this latest overrated Chap
from Chapel Hill. He should thank Dean for his degree and choose a new
profession.

TTom
17.380SACT41::ROSSSome people call me Maurice...whoowooMon Mar 04 1991 12:1620
Hurley was at his whiney best yesterday, wasn't he?   I can't even
think of having to watch him for two more years.
Grant Hill was smooth... Laettner looks more solid every time I see him
play;  although I hope he's not a Danny Ferry-type.   

Georgia Tech loses to Clemson.   Kenny A. scored 25 with a single assist.
He's got to have the lowest assist/game average of any superstar point
guard ever... About 6/game.   I saw Mister Jennings of ETSU last night,
and he's a better player than Kenny.  Better shooter, better defender,
better at controlling the flow; all that Kenny has over him is the flash
and the athletic moves;  Anderson will be a big bust in the NBA when he
has to hit the jumper better than 40% and drive against the big boys. 
A lottery pick - no way;

You know what bugs me {#37 of 354} about the Tar Heels?  It's the way
all the players on the bench "officiate" the game.  They spend more time
making traveling and foul calls than cheering on the team.   That's a
function of Dean, who does more grandstanding than Bob Knight ever did.
Knight explodes in short bursts... Dean whines, dances, and stomps the
whole game when he's losing.
17.381I'll worry when they look like the Tech bench (snore ...)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 04 1991 13:2710
    > You know what bugs me {#37 of 354} about the Tar Heels?  It's the way
    > all the players on the bench "officiate" the game.  They spend more time
    > making traveling and foul calls than cheering on the team.   
    
    Well if it bugs you that much Doug I can only hope we keep doing it!
    
    ;^)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.382Some observationsSHALOT::MEDVIDgod is war,TV preacher tell me moreMon Mar 04 1991 14:0429
>You know what bugs me {#37 of 354} about the Tar Heels?  It's the way
>all the players on the bench "officiate" the game.  They spend more time
>making traveling and foul calls than cheering on the team.   That's a
>function of Dean, who does more grandstanding than Bob Knight ever did.
>Knight explodes in short bursts... Dean whines, dances, and stomps the
>whole game when he's losing.
    
    Boy, Doug, you got that right!  Did you notice the blond kid at the end
    of UNC's bench?  He was on the court a couple times.  During that one
    series where Laitner made several great attempts and then finally
    committed a foul, this kid was all over the place.  He was worse than
    Hurley!
    
    Didn't see much from the "future NBA center" what's his
    name...Cutshilts, Shitclutz, Kiltshits, something like that. ;-)
    Except for the 3-point gift from Hurley, he was shut down in the second
    half.  The same can be said for Laitner, but he seemed to be much more
    of a presence on the court.
    
    Quote from Deano: "I probably should have gone to a zone but I'm too
    stubborn.  I can't do that in Chapel Hill."  Huh?
    
    Wake Forest is truely in ACC champ in my book.  What a year for the
    Deacons.  And they prove they can win on the road right before the
    tournament.  They're either going to fold big time or make an
    impressive run in the NCAAs...no in between.
    
    	--dan'l
    
17.383ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewMon Mar 04 1991 15:0131
    I had a_orgasmic revelatory out-of-body experience Sunday morning
    watching Dick Schaat's roundtable show.  They did a fawning piece
    on Dean Smif' as a warm-up to the Duke game, with Schaat saying that
    his Master's thesis eventually sold to a New York newspaper called
    the "Underground Railroad" was on Smif'.  Schaat then said, "only
    thing that's changed is that now they get down there on jets instead
    of one planes.
    
    Referring to 'Snuffy's NYC recruiting supremacy, appropriately enough.
    
    Then CoachK comes up on the screen, with him saying that he "respected"
    'Snuff cuz, "he's consitently excellent."
    
    Yeah, no lie: "consistently excellent."  
    
    Now I understand why they named a_arena after a_active coach with only
    one paltry Title after three decades: He's "consistently excellent"
    (i.e., a recruiting) and given the paucity of Titles they needed to
    breaks the barriers of good taste by naming the building after him in
    order to shor up the image a his flagging program (i.e., having been
    precluded by NC State in Titles and Duke in consistent excellence in
    the form of excellent tournament losses.
    
    People in Hoosierland are praying that IU gets the Star Heels in the
    tourney so that poor Montross cain have reinforced in his face what a
    tragic decision he made.  In retrospect, IU not recruiting him was a
    blessing in disguise, although it certainly cost Eric, who looks the
    same at this point this year as he did last year playing for Lawrence
    Central.
    
    Big10 Tom 
17.384the Dean WayHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughMon Mar 04 1991 16:0127
Helping officiate the game is a time honored Tar Heel tradition. Its
personification was Jeff Lebo. A critical point is to notice that as the
game goes worse, this helping increases. 

The Dean quote about not in Chapel Hill refers to one of the theories of
Deandom is that you don't alter your game plan even if it goes sour.
Interesting contrast to how most people try to win and adjust
accordingly. Well Dean's game plan is mostly man-to-man. In fact, most of
his zones are traps, etc. I've only ever seen him change once and that
was a year - or so - ago when he threw a junk defense - box and 1 - on
Tommy Hammond from Ga Tech, who was abusing any type of straight up
defense. Also, it should be noted, that State had been successful
assigning Corchianni to guard him. So Dean let's King try to hang with
him. It should be noted that during the David Thompson era, Dean would
never put up a special defense for him. State, with Thompson, would stand
in line to play the Heels.

In reply to MrT's comments about Eric Montross, a lot of people inside
the Dean system peak in their freshman year. Mostly, the better you are,
the less you improve at Chapel Hill. Not all, just most. In effect,
you're seeing him at about as good as he'll be under Dean. Unless it
turns out that he truly was overrated, in which case he might improve to
Pete Chilcutt. God what an insult! And, of course, he's better off than
Cliff Rozier, who looks like he made an incredibly stupid decision to go
to Dean.

TTom
17.385Like clockwork: UNC loses & the Dean bigots come out in forceRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 04 1991 16:4976
> The Dean quote about not in Chapel Hill refers to one of the theories of
> Deandom is that you don't alter your game plan even if it goes sour.

Wrong.  It refers to Dean's theory that you play more zone on the road
and more man-to-man at home.


> Well Dean's game plan is mostly man-to-man. In fact, most of
> his zones are traps, etc. 

Wrong, wrong, wrong.  Our traps are invariably run as part of 
The Scramble (formerly known as the 'Run and Jump') which consists of
the ball being double teamed, 2 people playing the passing lanes, and
the 3rd playing free safety underneath.  If this fails to generate
either a turnover or basket we resume playing man-to-man.  When we play
zone it's a 2-3 and there's no trapping involved.

I agree with Dean though - we should've played more zone yesterday.  Duke
is much quicker than us and we payed the price repeatedly.  


> I've only ever seen him change once 

Then you haven't been watching much.  Dean constantly makes defensive
adjustments, and if you don't believe it watch the 2nd half of yesterdays
game again.  Carolina defense is one of the most complex in
the college game.  Sounds to me like you're really saying you've only
seen him go to a junk defense once, in which case you still haven't
been watching much.  We boxed on Kenny Anderson in the Tech game this
year.


> It should be noted that during the David Thompson era, Dean would
> never put up a special defense for him. State, with Thompson, would stand
> in line to play the Heels.

I doubt too many teams playing against a talented 7-footer (Burleson)
and unparalleled outside shooter (Towe) would play much junk defense
against State.  Seeing's how they didn't lose too many games in '73/'74 
(which one of those years were they on probation?) and only played
Carolina a couple of times, it would seem a few other coaches were
hopelessly outcoached as well, eh?


> In reply to MrT's comments about Eric Montross, a lot of people inside
> the Dean system peak in their freshman year. 

This is utterly false.  One of our primary recruiting tools is that 
you may not get as much PT at Carolina but you *will* become the best
you can be.  Witness our outrageous success at turning out pros if you
disagree.  (Last I checked we had more than anybody.)  Also note that
Rick Fox, who'll be on somebody's NBA bench next year, was NOT a McDonald's
All-American, nor was starter Hubert Davis.


> In effect, you're seeing him at about as good as he'll be under Dean. Unless 
> it turns out that he truly was overrated, in which case he might improve to
> Pete Chilcutt. God what an insult! 

I'm not gonna complain about the kid Billy Packer called the best offensive
rebounder in the ACC.  But Eric will be much, much better than Pete
before he's finished.  He's only getting 10 minutes or so a game now, and if
you multiply his stats by 3 (the minutes he'll get next year) I think you'd
find him in the running for ACC Rookie honors.


> And, of course, he's better off than Cliff Rozier, who looks like he 
> made an incredibly stupid decision to go to Dean.

Huh?  Mighty quick to make this observation I'll say.  Clifford has shown
tremendous improvement and looks to be a staple on the front lines for
the next three (3) years along with Montross.  


- ACC Chris
    
17.386CAM::WAYGonna tell Aunt Mary 'bout Uncle JohnMon Mar 04 1991 16:567
17.387You said it...RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHotlanta is getting warmer!Mon Mar 04 1991 18:176
17.388SACT41::ROSSSome people call me Maurice...whoowooMon Mar 04 1991 18:2624
ACC Chris' bible - The PooP {sic} Sheet {try asking for that one at your local
newstand and you may be directed to the coprophiliacs section} has used a 
very scientific formula to determine that Kenny Anderson is the best point
guard in the ACC.   The formula?  

	Point/game + (2 * assists/game) - (.75 * turnovers/game)

Let's forget that FG% and FT% and steals and general defense are not considered
in this category... the numbers come out to {league games only}:

	Anderson    GA Tech	33.1
	Corchiani   NC State	28.8
	Crotty      UVa 	25.6
	Hurley	    Duke	25.4
	Rice	    UNC         22.7
	Burks       Clemson     18.2
	McQueen     Wake        16.8
	McLinton    Maryland    15.4


Based on my own subjective system and the 3,000,000 ACC games I've seen 
this year, I'd rank them:

	Corchiani, Anderson, Crotty, Rice/Hurley/McQueen, Burks/McLinton
17.389Preparing Rice for the NBA he will never be in.SHALOT::MEDVIDsocial drinker, social everynightMon Mar 04 1991 19:3611
    Not to beat a dead Tarheel, but yesterday's game contained perhaps the
    most obvious, gracious, blatant, brown-snuff-nosing, homecourt call I
    have ever seen in college basketball.  
    
    I'm talking about the foul called on ?Hurley? and the three-step
    continuation/walk/jump/bump and shoot they gave to Rice.  Homecourt
    calls are, sadly, part of the game, but that one was a bit too
    ridiculous to ignore.  If you call that "in the act" then you have to
    let Hill carry the ball "NBA-style" a couple times, no?
    
    	--dan'l
17.3907221::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Mon Mar 04 1991 20:015
    The Tar Heels might have quite a few players in the NBA, but most of
    them would have gotten to the NBA anyway.  To put it simply they made
    it to the NBA *DESPITE* Dean Smith.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
17.391STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishTue Mar 05 1991 11:057
    
    Rick Fox was a H.S. All-American and very highly rated.  Many teams
    were after his services after one year of H.S. ball in Indiana.
    
    You're slipping Chris......
    
    
17.392If you doubt it, prove me wrong. (Impossible.)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Mar 05 1991 12:426
    Let me repeat:
    
    RICK FOX WAS *NOT* A MCDONALD'S ALL-AMERICAN.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.393Anderson the only unanimous selectionRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Mar 05 1991 12:4628
    All-ACC 1st team:
    
    Kenny Anderson
    Christian Laettner
    Rodney Monroe
    Bryant Stith
    Rick Fox
    
    
    All-ACC 2nd team:
    
    Chris Corchiani
    Dale Davis
    Malcolm Mackey
    Rodney Rogers
    Tom Gulgliotta
    
    
    All-ACC 3rd team:
    
    John Crotty
    Pete Chilcutt
    Bobby Hurley
    Matt Roe
    Thomas Hill
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.394Another RodneyHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughTue Mar 05 1991 13:017
Chris,

Any word on rookies? 

IMHO, I'd replace Fox with Rodney Rogers, who should be a lock on ROY.

TTom
17.395STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishTue Mar 05 1991 13:1021
    
    Wow, ACChris uses only one of the measuring sticks available to measure
    Dean's supposed success with Rick Fox?  He'll do anything but use the
    real facts in a situation to support his cause.  Fox was one of the best 
    H.S. prospects available at the forward position and was heavily recruited.
    He was an extremely talented basketball player to begin with and not
    some nobody that Dean found and shaped into this terrific ballplayer,
    like you'd like us all to think.
    
    What are the stipulations required to be a McDonald's H.S. All-American
    and isn't it a small team?
    
    Plus speaking of Dean's success with Big Men, what ever happened to 
    highly touted big-man recruits Matt Wenstrom and Kevin Salvadori???
    
    They've been tearing up the court this year.  Do you think they'll
    make the NBA?
    
    Cap
    

17.396QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Tue Mar 05 1991 13:2911
17.397STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishTue Mar 05 1991 13:3616
    
>Yes, they are. I can eat 87 smelt.
    
    Makes me remember my days in Birmingham when the had smelt night at the
    local ballpark.  By about the 5th inning, you'd smell the smelts being
    fried in the pits and you're stomach would start grumbling.  The
    ballplayers would purposely get themselves out, just so they could get
    the game over and join in the feast. 
    
    Makes my mouth water just thinking about it......
    
    Cap :-)
    
    P.S.  Smelts are a wonderful fish is taken from that great SNL bit by
    Billy Crystal and Christopher Guest on Negro League players.  Featured
    a cameo from Yogi Berra talking about the virtues of Smelt night.
17.398CAM::WAYGonna tell Aunt Mary 'bout Uncle JohnTue Mar 05 1991 13:4416
17.399If 44 is a small number, you're right.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Mar 05 1991 14:5815
    re: TTom
    
    No word on rookies.  I can symphathize with a vote for Rogers, but he
    was inconsistent, symptomatic of a frosh.  Fox was more consistent
    and, IMO, more deserving.
    
    Rogers will be 1st team until he decides to leave for NBA-land.
    
    Oh and, BTW, 44 players are chosen as McDonald's All-Americans.  Also
    Rick Fox appears to be the only non-McDonald's AA to make first team
    ACC.  Good goin' Dean!  (And special kudo's to Rick himself for working
    hard to improve his game ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.400burning a torch for CorchANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Mar 05 1991 15:255
    How in the hail you cain keep Corch off 1st team all-conference is
    beyond explanation.  He's better than Kenny, he's the best point
    guard in the country.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.401Chris passes 1000HBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughTue Mar 05 1991 15:4220
Speaking of Corch, he's passed 1000 assists now. The first to attain that
plateau. This is a pretty good record. It's about 9 or so a game for a
4 year career. State was in the post season his first 2 years. I believe
they lost the first game one year (1988) to Murray St and lost in the
regional semis to Georgetown the next year on a disputed no call as Corch
missed a shot but looked like he was fouled by Mourning. State was banned
last year which didn't add any games and look like they're headed to the
tourney this year but based on the rankings they'll be lucky to advance
to the sweet 16.

A couple of questions:

Does anyone know what the NCAA record is for games played? Just curious.

Does anyone know how close Keith Jennings is to Corch? I noticed that
ETSU beat 4 teams last week - 1 regular, and 3 conference tourney games,
including winning the championship. The clips I saw showed him scoring a
bunch himself.

TTom
17.402RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOIS this the Sox year??Tue Mar 05 1991 15:5614
    Rich Fox not being a MacDonalds ALL-American.  It's true.  Some folks
    said he had trouble flipping burgers, he kept clanging them off the
    front end of the grill.  Others said his problem was at the drive-up
    window - he never seemed to be able to pick out the open car.   Still
    others thought he spent too much time fiddling and diddling near the
    fry-o-later.  Personally, I think his real problems were in beverages -
    his shakes were too slow, his pops didn't fizzle - they were kinda
    flat,  his coffee was week and without pizzazz.  He had trouble setting
    the table and cleaning the glass.  
    
    HE almost made the Domino's all-american team, but he trouble
    delivering on time and driving the lane.
    
    JD
17.403CAM::WAYGonna tell Aunt Mary 'bout Uncle JohnTue Mar 05 1991 18:245
JD --

You slay me!!!!!

'Saw
17.404re: JD Haw haw!! (It's Rick Fox though, not Rich. HTH.)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Mar 05 1991 18:3625
> ACC Chris' bible - The PooP {sic} Sheet {try asking for that one at your local
> newstand and you may be directed to the coprophiliacs section}

Rong Ross.  See my p-name for my college hoops bible.  The PooP Sheet
is just a pleasant diversion to help me sharpen my knowledge of the
other ACC schools.  (Not to mention uncover ammunition for our well
known family feuds.)

;^)


> The Tar Heels might have quite a few players in the NBA, but most of
> them would have gotten to the NBA anyway.  To put it simply they made
> it to the NBA *DESPITE* Dean Smith.

Interesting hypothesis D-boy, but seeing's how there's virtually
unanimous agreement among NBA scouts that Carolina players are_a
notch above the rest, combined with the raw numbers of pros we've
turned out, I'd say the burden of proof is on *you*!

Haw!!11


- ACC Chris
    
17.405Result by Smith, proof by KnorrSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsWed Mar 06 1991 13:2119
 Awesome.  I go away for a couple of days and come back to 25 or 30 notes
 full of Dean-bashing.  Music to my ears.
 
 Saw another quote by Dean following the Duke loss ... Dean felt that Duke
 had the pyschological edge going into the game because Carolina was at
 home and *HAD* to win.
 
 Let's see now, let's say that together a few times ... 
 
 	Had to win and didn't ...
 	Had to win and didn't ...
 	Had to win and didn't ...
 
 Yep, if it looks like a choke job, acts like a choke job, and sounds like
 a choke job, then it's probably a choke job.
 
 'Nuf said.
 
 Bob Hunt	
17.406YAWN. SOSAD (Same Old Song And Dance)RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Mar 06 1991 13:449
    re: .-1
    
    "Everytime UNC loses it's a choke."  Is that a statement we can all 
    agree with?
    
    Yours in intellectual dishonesty,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.407a choke and a smileHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughWed Mar 06 1991 14:1921
Chris, you only wish it was that simple.

No. Everytime UNC loses it ain't a choke. In the Wooden era, when No
Carolina lost in the Final Four to UCLA, no one talked about a choke.
They weren't supposed to win and didn't. (I must admit that I still
enjoyed the losses, though.)

But the Duke game is another matter. First of all, it was a home game for
the Heels, a decided edge. To the general populace this establishes that
No Carolina was the favorite. Even the line showed the Heels to be
favored. 

Now we have a quote from Dean hisself about the had to win but didn't.

No, Chris, you can't dismiss this as 

	>    "Everytime UNC loses it's a choke." 

BTW, Bob Hunt, it smelled like a choke, too.

TTom
17.408This must be the answer then.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Mar 06 1991 15:0511
    re: .-1
    
    Fair enough TTom.  In that case let me revise my statement:
    
    "Everytime a college basketball team loses when they were favored to
    win, they choked."
    
    Still yours in intellectual dishonesy,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.409ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCaroina BlewWed Mar 06 1991 15:0522
    It's not a poop sheet.  Actually, having seen a copy it's better
    described as a *sheet* sheet!  In fack, when ACCrisp mailed me 
    a_unsolicited copy it became a sheet sheet in the LITERAL sense.
    
    I enjoyed the Duke vs. Star Heels game.  I enjoyed seeing 'Snuff
    sitting there refusing to make a strategy change after it'd become
    apparent to everybody that his plan wasn't working and letting the
    Dukies steal one.  I enjoyed seeing Rick Fox and the other seniors
    playing their last game at home in perfect style: losing, vicitimized
    by horrid game coaching, featuring underdeveloped starting H.S. All
    Americas on the bench or flubbing on the court, outplayed by a visiting
    team representing the *new* top Almost Close hoops program.
    
    This was exspecially pleasurable after witnessing in Madison another
    brilliant Bob-move, where after watching his team held to a paltry 23
    first half points he went to a 1-3-1 offense that left the poor Badgers
    helplessly standing by as IU's star alone scored 24 points in the 2nd
    stanza.
    
    Two games, one conclusion: The Great, the Good, and the Ugly Underachiever.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.410ClarificationRHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Mar 06 1991 15:075
    It tweren't a PooP Sheet I sent you MorT.  Rather it was_a 'Carolina
    Blue', clearly a superior publication.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.411Clarification, Part IIRHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Mar 06 1991 15:097
    Here's another statement I think we can both agree on MorT:
    
    "When Carolina loses it's cause of bad coaching.  When IU loses it's
    cause they've got no talent."
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.412Thypocrisy (tm) Lives!RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Mar 06 1991 15:129
    For the record MorT, both IU and UNC finished 2nd in their respective
    conferences.  Both lost to the team that beat them on their home floor.
    Both have similar records (Carolina with 1 more loss but a more
    difficult schedule) and similar rankings.  Both have had #1 ranked
    recruiting classes, although IU's is more seasoned.  (i.e. #1 rank in
    '89; we were #1 in '90)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.413From another perspective ...SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsWed Mar 06 1991 15:1712
17.414CSCOA1::ROLLINS_RWed Mar 06 1991 15:269
re .409

	I'm not supporting Dean, and I do recognize Duke as the best ACC
	hoops program today.  However, it seems rather ridiculous to compare
	UNC's loss to Duke and IU's victory vs Wisconsin to point out what
	a great coach BK is.  Wisconsin shouldn't have been able to keep
	IU down in the first half, if there had been some decent coaching
	in that part of the game.  UW just is not a good program, Duke is one
	of the nation's premier programs.
17.415BobHunt: Another victim of MorT's propaganda machine :^(RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Mar 06 1991 15:309
    The first quote is just as funny Ketch.  Trouble is you're apparently
    naive enough to believe MorT when he moans and groans about having no
    talent, despite their #1 ranked recruiting class and plethora of quick,
    explosive, and multi-talented backcourt players.  (Note that UNC is
    none-too-loaded in this department, a fact which hurts us dearly
    against quicker teams like Duke.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.416Pssst, Dean, snake eyes, put Montross inSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsWed Mar 06 1991 19:0732
 Nobody here is foolish enough to swallow any tripe from anybody about
 Indiana lacking talent.   Last time I looked those weren't computer
 science nerds wearing the IU red and white.
 
 However, I do believe it is common knowledge that, on an annual basis, Mr.
 Knight does indeed manage to direct and manage his collections of talent
 to their appropriate level and, in some spectacular cases, even above
 their expected level.   His 1989 Big Ten championship was a masterpiece of
 overachievement seeing as how rival foe Michigan blitzed through the
 NCAAs.  And his 1976 national champions were an equivalent masterpiece,
 only this time, because they met their own expectations.
 
 Contrast that with Mr. Smith.  The next time he overachieves will be his
 lifetime first.   And the next time he comes even close to meeting his
 expectations, you'll need a case of smelling salts to wake up all the
 fainted noters in here.   No doubt if he ever does that again he'll piss
 off the Tar Heel faithful who, by now, have become oh-so-content with
 worshipping each excellent loss the Rev racks up.
 
 He's really losing it.   So far this year he didn't call a time out in the
 middle of a Ga Tech run because he was too proud to, he wouldn't go to a
 zone defense against Duke because they were playing at home, and he
 conceded the psychological edge to the same Duke team because the pressure
 was on his team to win at home.  Not to mention that he made pine jockeys
 out of the greatest recruiting class ever.
 
 Oh, yeah, and he looked dazed and confused in losing the overhyped grand
 rematch to a South Carolina team that looks incredibly mediocre right now.  
 I could have come up with a better substitution pattern for *that* game if
 I had rolled dice behind the bench and whispered the results in his ear.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.417all part of the same systemHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughWed Mar 06 1991 20:1718
re: .408
    
>    "Everytime a college basketball team loses when they were favored to
>    win, they choked."
    
Chris, when did anyone say this? 

Let's put this "choke" in perspective. First of all there's all this
"greatest coach", "greatest program", "greatest recruiting", etc.,
superlatives that you apply to the Tar Heels program. Well one
immediately wonders why they'd ever lose except through underachieving.
But that's not the question here.

In simplest terms, whoever gets the credit for the winning and gets the
credit for the losing. If Dean is a cause of the "winning tradition"
then he's the cause of the "choking tradition".

TTom
17.418the big goose egg for the big tenDEMING::MCKAYWed Mar 06 1991 21:559
    Past history aside, it is my personal opinion that both Indiana
    and Ohio State are heavily overrated.  Based on their records
    both should be a #1 or #2 seed, and I believe neither will make
    it through the opening weekend.  I do however think North Carolina
    has the horses to make it through the opening weekend.  I think the
    big ten is going to go into the sweet sixteen with zero
    representatives.  
    
    Jimbo
17.419Atlanta Constitution fails me againRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 07 1991 11:434
    Who's got the starting times for tomorrow's ACC first round?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.420Here ya go, Chris:SHALOT::MEDVIDsocial drinker, social everynightThu Mar 07 1991 12:456
    NC State vs GT	2:00
    UNC	vs Clemson	7:00
    Wake vs UVA		9:30
    
    Saturday games at 1:30  and 4:00.
    Championship game Sunday at 2:30
17.421***NEWS FLASH*** ***NEWS FLASH*** ***NEWS FLASH***RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 07 1991 13:0513
    Yee Haw!  I'm Charlotte-bound for the ACC Tourney!!  
    
    Yup folks, my Techhaid neighbor scoffed two (2) tix and will be taking
    me along for a hoops-filled weekend in the Queen City.
    
    Who else is goin'?  Perhaps we can meet at some point and root the
    Heels on.  (Or at least just meet!)
    
    I'm up for almost anything.  We're leaving tomorrow am and will be
    staying at a Holiday Inn ~ 8 miles from the Coliseum.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.422I'll be thereSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Mar 07 1991 13:2416
    That's great news, Chris.
    
    One of my fraternity brothers from Virginia got a pair for us a few
    weeks ago.  He's coming down to Charlotte tonight from the Tidewater
    area.
    
    Send me mail and we'll arrange to meet.
    
    I think TTom will be there, too.  The DEC District office is right
    across the street from the Coliseum and he was successful last year in
    just walking over and scooping up a disappointed fan's remaining tix. 
    You gonna do that again, TTom ???
    
    See you there, Soup.
    
    Bob Hunt
17.423I owe you a fewSHALOT::MEDVIDsocial drinker, social everynightThu Mar 07 1991 14:0114
    Chris, coincidetnly this is the weekend for The 3rd Annual Great
    Charlotte Male Bonding Weekend.  If you can make it to the Paper Doll
    Saturday night, I will be there with a host of my northern buddies
    partying like wild animals.  I owe you a couple beers for all the past
    Carolina bashing I've done so I hope you can make it.  Just ask one of
    the ushers for the Medvid table.
    
    Holiday Inn eight miles from the colesium?  I can't figure that one
    out.  There's one about two miles away.  Maybe it's the one right
    across the border into SC.
    
    Send me mail if you need any info.
    
    	--dan'l
17.424Round 2 *could* feature UVa vs. UNC. Oooohhh...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 07 1991 15:1210
    > I owe you a couple beers for all the past Carolina bashing I've done 
    > so I hope you can make it.  
    
    Boy if you owe me a couple imagine how many Hunt & Haas owe me!  
    
    This Paper Doll thing sounds intewesting, and I just so happen to have
    Saturday night free.  (Last game starts @4:00.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.425Hope you ain't thirstySHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Mar 07 1991 15:3511
 None.  Zip.  Zilch.   Nada.  Zero.   Montross's uniform number.
    
 Medvid is a candy-ass girly mon wimpoid who feels compelled to feel guilty
 about bashing Carolina.
    
 I, of course, have no such guilt and, in fact, revel in bashing the Baby
 Bluesters.  You will get no suds from me.
 
 See you in Charlotte, Soup ...
 
 Bob Hunt
17.426I wonder if he wears Baby Blue boxersSHALOT::MEDVIDsocial drinker, social everynightThu Mar 07 1991 16:175
    Bob, you should know that I'm just trying to get Chris to the Paper
    Doll so he can be "part of the floor show."  It might be worth your
    while to show up too.
    
    	--dan'l
17.427Male Bonding? Floor Shows? Hmmm ....RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 07 1991 16:235
    Now just HOLD on a gosh-darned sec here.  Just what kinda place *is*
    this Paper Doll anyhow?  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.428A Prom Nightmare On Helms Street (Revisited)SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Mar 07 1991 16:503
    Trust us ... you'll *love* it.   Would I lie to you ???
    
    Bob Hunt
17.429I doubt Dean will bring the boys there after the game ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 07 1991 17:004
    This sounds like_a place Helms tried to shut down!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.430RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHotlanta is getting warmer!Thu Mar 07 1991 22:374
    
    	Back to B-Ball..Duke to win the whole thing with U.N.C second.
    
    B.A. 
17.431maybe, yes, no, don't go, goHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughFri Mar 08 1991 15:0216
In summary:

1. I may or may not be at the games today.

2. I will most certainly attend the gala festivities of the Evening at
the Paper Doll.

3. If I had a nickle for everytime I bashed the Tar Heels, I'd be a rich
man. I'll avoid the issues of guilt, compensation, or any linkage to any
girly mon issues.

Meanwhile, the headlines of the paper are blaring notice that Kenny
Anderson is on the way out of the ACC and hopefully headed to the NBA.

Go Pack.
TTom
17.432QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Fri Mar 08 1991 17:5412
17.433Georgia State is Atlanta's NCAA team ?CSCOA1::ROLLINS_RFri Mar 08 1991 19:104
	Final score in the ACC tournament:
	North Carolina State 82, Georgia Tech 68
	Tech was very sloppy with the ball, may have sent themselves to
	the NIT.
17.434STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishMon Mar 11 1991 11:3127
    Well North Carolina got the gift of the year.  No way do they deserve a
    #1 seed.  #1 seeds should come from conference champions not a team
    that wins a tourney(Jim Delaney and the selection committee have stated
    this on many occasions).
    
    A couple of quotes
    
    "I think you have to be a champion of some kind to be a No. 1 seed.  I
    think both N.C. and us are solid No. 2s.  Indiana by tying for the
    Big10 championship deserved the No. 1 seed."  Mike K. Duke
    
    'Indiana didn't get the No. 1 seed, probably because Dean Smith has
    whined so much about his draw the past few years and the committee
    decided to quiet for at least a few minutes by giving him a No. 1 seed
    and a draw that will leave him with no excuses should Carolina fail to
    reach Indianapolis."  John Feinstein.
    
    'With perhaps the greatest recruiting class EVER this season, Smith is
    expected to get to the Final Four at least twice and win it all at
    least once.'  The National
    
    So not only did NC get an undeserving #1 seed but they also got the
    easiest draw in the entire field.  If they don't get to the Final Four
    this year, than it will go down as one of Smith's greatest choke jobs
    to date.
    
    Cap
17.436STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishMon Mar 11 1991 12:2311
    re -1
    
    This is exactly the kind of hypocritical note I love.....
    
    Here we have Hawk, who enters brainless drivel(junk notes) into 80
    different notes during the day and then comes into a note demanding
    that a subject stay in one topic.
    
    Classic, simply classic
    
    Cap
17.437Dean Smith: greatest recruiter in historySHALOT::MEDVIDsocial drinker, social everynightMon Mar 11 1991 12:2510
    Congrats to UNC on the tourny championship.  Total destruction of Duke.
    
    Dean Smith is by far the best recruiter in the history of college
    basketball.  Somehow he got Duke to recruit Bobby Hurley; Hurley was
    the Tarheel's MVP yesterday by a long shot.
    
    Wake Forest might just show up at the Final Four if Inidana loses to
    Coastal Carolina...nah!
    
    	--dan'l
17.438EARRTH::BROOKSNah .... tax problems ...Mon Mar 11 1991 12:283
    Like I said, Hurley is waaaaayyy overrated .....
    
    
17.439CSCOA1::ROLLINS_RMon Mar 11 1991 12:434
	Probably Indiana would have been a #1 seed if the Big Ten had
	been more competitive this year.  They were unusually weak this
	year, I thought, and I believe that had an effect on their seeding
	relative to UNC's.
17.441It just doesn't git any better than this !!!!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 11 1991 13:2535
    Congrats to the Heels for what had to be their best game of the year
    yesterday.  The defense was cranked up to levels I didn't think
    possible early on, and that set the tone for the game.  (i.e. early
    frustration by Hurley leading to an absolutely horrendous game; 2 early
    fouls on Laettner - he later got whistled for a Technical)  Our offense
    executed well and, just as importantly, we shot the ball very, very
    well.  
    
    As to UNC getting the #1 seed in the East, there were several factors
    in their favor and none of them had anything to do with the ridiculous
    and uncalled for comments made by Feinstein.  [And echoed almost
    verbatim this morning on NPR by Bill Littlefield :^(]
    
    Consider:
    
    o UNC had a better record over the last 10 games (a stat the selection
      committee looks at)
    o UNC was the ACC Champion  (IU only co-champ)
    o UNC had a better power rating (#6 for IU; #4 for UNC, the way the
      selection committee calculates it)
    
    I doubt it was a factor but the fact that we beat Duke so convincingly
    on a neutral court didn't hurt.
    
    Special thanks go to Mr. Medvid and BobHunt for a most excellent time
    Saturday night.  Witnessing Carolina win an ACC Championship is 
    certainly an experience neither I nor Ketch will forget!  (As hard as
    he might try ...)  Imagine if you will folks being in the same building 
    as BobHunt whilst UNC disposes of UVa in a thriller, and then gettin' 
    to gloat about it in the poor guys own living room!!!!1111
    
    ;^)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.442STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishMon Mar 11 1991 13:3621
    re -1
    
    I have absolutely no problem with what you put in this file and I've
    found that your notes are entertaining, but alot of the notes have
    absolutely nothing to do with sports.  That's why I find exception with
    the high and mighty, 'Don't you dare put a Dean Smith bash note in
    such and such note.'  The note was extremely hypocritical and was
    rightly pointed out. 
    
      -< We should all be as intelligent, sophisticated, & humorless... >-
    
    Intelligent:  Yes
    Sophisticated:  Nah(belch....)
    Humorless:  On the contrary, my sense of humor is as good as anyone's.
    
    Never said junk notes aren't fun and entertaining but if you are going
    to complain about a subject straying from it's note than you should 
    practice what you preach......
    
    Cap
    
17.443STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishMon Mar 11 1991 13:428
    Re:  Mr. Rollins
    
    I agree that the Big10 had a down year this year, but I don't see the
    ACC being that superior this year.  They only had one more entry this
    year than the Big10.  Indiana finished #3 overall in the national
    polls and with a conference championship deserved a #1 seed.
    
    Cap
17.445!!!!RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JONortheastern to beat the tarhellsMon Mar 11 1991 14:204
    GO HUSKIES!!!!!!!! BEAT THE TARHELLS (TM)!!!!!!
    
    
    JD
17.446Peace dude !EARRTH::BROOKSNah .... tax problems ...Mon Mar 11 1991 14:3014
    re .442
    
    Of late Cap, you've been acting like some stuck a hornet in you pants.
    Somebody makes a comment, and you go off the deep end - reading a lot o
    nothing into a note.
    
    Maybe it's that time of the month for you :-), in which case we'll make
    an extra effort to be considerate.
    
    But you should take a chill pill - or five.
    
    Really.
    
    I'd hate to see your reaction when Indiana gets waxed in the tourny ...
17.447STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishMon Mar 11 1991 14:5624
    Re Hawk...
    
    That's cool, I see your point.  Didn't mean to say your notes were 
    brainless drivel, I quite enjoy the junk notes.  Alot of times they
    are the perfect stress releasers....  Smith bashing wouldn't take place
    in this notes file if a certain noter would not place a god-like
    persona on him and admit to some of his frailities.  
    
    Re Doc.
    
    With as many people as you've pissed off in your everyday appearances
    in any notesfile, rotis leagues, etc., taking advice from you would 
    be akin to allowing a spurned ex-girlfriend/wife to perform a
    circumcision on you shortly after your break-up.
    
    You just get mad when someone whips your a$$ in an argument and exposes
    you as a fraud in other areas(i.e athletic talent).  Resorting to personal 
    attacks doesn't improve your stature but it might help that enormous ego 
    of yours that is in constant need of massaging.....
    
    If you'd like to discuss this further, send mail, as I won't do it in
    this notesfile.....
    
    Cap
17.448STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishMon Mar 11 1991 15:0110
    
    I wonder what Bob Hunt's reaction is to the screw-job that Virginia
    got....
    
    First they get sent to the West, the toughest bracket in the tourney
    this year, receive a decent #7 seed and are rewarded with playing
    BYU in Salt Lake City.  Virginia is in for a tough one since they are
    basically a very small team, Shawn Bradley should have a field day...
    
    Cap
17.449We need a separation of Church and Sports!SHALOT::MEDVIDwild but not lostMon Mar 11 1991 15:189
    Thanks, Cap, for getting back to the point.  Yes, let's not get into a
    Dean Bashing rathole but we'll spend 10 notes on each others merrits. 
    Cripes!  On with the Dean Bashing and Hurley Downing!  8-)
    
    BYU gets to play at home because their religion forbids them from
    playing on Sunday.  So they get their little nitch close to home with
    the Salt Palace filled with Mormons.  What a load of crap!  Go Wahoos!
    
    	--dan'l
17.450STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishMon Mar 11 1991 15:2210
    
    I agree Dan'l, basically BYU was rewarded because of their religion.
    
    What a crock.....
    
    There should be no prejudices within this tourney.  If BYU can't play
    on Sunday, than they should forfeit their spot in the tourney.  No
    special arrangements should be made for a team....
    
    Cap
17.451UNC will fall to mighty Princeton ;-).VAXWRK::NEEDLEMoney talks. Mine says &quot;Good-Bye!&quot;Mon Mar 11 1991 15:270
17.452ACC Tournament Weekend In ReviewSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsMon Mar 11 1991 15:27126
 Well, that certainly was an intense weekend.  I have to admit that the
 last thing I want to do right now is go see a college basketball game.  
 Three games on Friday, two more on Saturday, and one on Sunday.   That's a
 *lot* of hoops and I've had my fill for a while.
 
 Random thoughts and observations ...
 
 I was convinced Georgia Tech was NIT bound.  NC State took them apart and
 Tech didn't even seem to care.  Kenny Anderson is way overrated.  He's got
 some nice moves but the NBA widebodies will beat on him like a drum.   No
 doubt the NCAA gave them a bid to get just a few more hours of Anderson on
 the tube.   They won't last long.
 
 Rodney Monroe is a bonafide silky smooth pure shooting guard.  He should
 stick in the pros for 10 years or more.   Gugliotta and Corchiani are
 tough hard-nosed players and they're fun to watch but Monroe is a dream
 player.
 
 Clemson almost took out Carolina.   Carolina left the middle w-i-d-e open
 in the first half and the Clemson guards just waltzed right down the lane
 for easy layups.  Second half started with Carolina in a 2-3 zone to clog
 up the middle (guess it was because Dean looked at a map and realized he
 wasn't in Chapel Hill anymore) and Carolina then immediately went on 10-2
 run to take the lead.  So what did Dean do ???  You got it, he shitcanned
 the zone and Clemson got right back into it.   Unfortunately, after that,
 Clemson's shooting touch went back to the Palmetto State before the team
 bus did.   They couldn't buy a bucket and Carolina killed them softly at
 the free throw line.
 
 Oh, and Dean was nattily attired in a dark blue double-breasted pin
 striper with matching pocket square and black wing tips.   I was shocked. 
 I thought for sure he'd be wearing one of his trademark milk chocolate
 puke brown suits with the wing-sized lapels.
 
 The Wahoos then pulled off the only upset of the day taking out the
 third-seeded Demon Deacons of Wake Forest.  This was an experience win. 
 Wake was too young to win this game but let me tell you something ... oh,
 my heavens, is Rodney Rogers a stud widebody.  He's got it all ... a
 physique chiseled out of stone, long-range three point accuracy, inside
 moves, jams galore, and, gulp, three more years of eligibility.  Wake is
 the up-and-coming team in the ACC.   Rogers has future ACC Player Of The
 Year written all over him.
 
 The Wahoos win was HUGE.  H-U-G-E.   After we got home and got some more
 scores and saw that teams like Syracuse, Mississippi State, and so on had
 been bounced and that suddenly hot teams with poor or losing records like
 Louisville, Villanova and Tennessee were all still alive, we looked at the
 Hoos win as the saving grace for the Big Dance.
 
 On Saturday, Duke blitzed NC State.  This was somewhat predictable because
 the entire NC State starting five had all played in excess of 38 or 39
 minutes the night before.  They had to be tired and Duke was as fresh as
 could be.   Hurley played a great game on Saturday and Grant Hill was
 awesome. He'll be All-ACC someday, too.   After this performance, I didn't
 think Duke would lose again this year until they ran into Vegas again
 sometime deep into The Show.
 
 Carolina blew by the Hoos in the first half with a huge rebounding
 advantage.  They had a 30-11 rebound advantage at the break and they had
 more offensive boards than the Hoos has boards total.   Carolina led by 14
 at the half but the Hoos scored the first 9 points of the 2nd half to get
 right back in it.  Ultimately, they were tied at 61-61 and Stith had a
 free throw to finish off a three-point play for the lead.  He missed the
 charity striper and Rick Fox hit a three and it was over.   The Hoos' run
 to tie it took all the effort they had and Carolina hung on to win.   The
 Hoos did hit two late treys and when King Rice missed the front end of a
 1-and-1, the Hoos had the ball with 9 seconds left and a chance to tie. 
 But Rice stripped the ball from Crotty at half court and Fox laid it in at
 the buzzer.   I thought Rice fouled him but even if he did it was a smart
 foul since Virginia was down by 3 at the time.
 
 My first words to Soup after the game were ... "You don't expect me to
 start liking them *now*, do you ???"   Soup supplied the right answer to
 prove he does have some brains, after all.   More on the rest of the
 evening a bit later.
 
 The final game on Sunday was a shock to me.  Carolina basically had
 struggled through its first 2 games and Duke looked unbeatable in its only
 contest.  Plus Duke seemed to have Carolina's number this year having
 abused them twice already.  But Carolina came out smoking and grabbed an
 11-2 lead.  Hurley was horrid.  He tossed away a couple of ill-advised
 passes right off the bat and K benched him real quick.   Carolina just
 kept pouring it on and this one was over before halftime.  Greg Koubek hit
 a bunch of threes in the 2nd half and Laettner had some inside buckets but
 the whole 2nd half was basically garbage time.  Laettner must have said
 the magic word to one of the refs because he got a T and then a seat on
 the bench.   
 
 Duke should be embarassed by this one.  Oh, and Soup, this was a talent
 win.  Dean could have slept through this one and probably did.
 
 Okay, now for the highlight of the weekend ... the Paper Doll Lounge.  
 The four of us, me and my buddy and Soup and his neighbor pal, got to the
 PDL at about 9:30pm and got ourselves a table.  The place was already
 boppin' and Dan'l Medvid came over and told us that the Luke and Smiley
 Award contest was already over and that "Pepper" had won it.  
 
 Shortly thereafter, Pepper herself came on over to our table with Dan'l in
 hot pursuit.   Well it wasn't long before the Soupster was up on stage
 dancing his fool buns off with Miss Pepper, the ultimate shaker.    Soup
 was obviously in a sagging zone defense because Pepper attacked his weak
 spots with a vengeance.   First his shirt was out of his jeans and then
 she had it halfway off his back.   You could see him shaking his head "No,
 No!" but pretty soon she had his belt off and was swinging it around like
 a lasso.  I have to admit ... Soup's got some good moves on the dance
 floor ... especially the ones where he's holding on to his shirt with one
 hand and his pants with the other trying to figure out if she's going to
 keep stripping him.
 
 Yep, she sure was.  Nexted thing you know, Soup's BVDs are there for all
 the world to ponder and Pepper is vigorously ... [CENSORED].    Sorry,
 folks, this is a family conference and Dean would be most disappointed in
 his loyal subject's wanton behavior.  You'll just have to use your
 imagination here.  Suffice to say that calling him "ACCaught" would be
 *MOST* accurate today.
 
 You can also assume that the evil twins, Dan'l and I, were exchanging
 numerous grins, hoots and guffaws and high fives.  Oh, if I only had a
 camera ...
 
 A truly wonderful weekend and I'm glad it only comes along once a year. 
 Carolina deserved their wins but I hate 'em even more.  Big surprise.
 
 Back to reality ...
 
 Bob Hunt
17.453STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishMon Mar 11 1991 15:457
    Geez ACC Chris, did the wifey get a full report of the proceedings that
    went on at the Paper Doll. ;-)  
    
    Dean Smith and Jesse Helms would have been embarrassed at that display
    of wanton lust.....
    
    Cap(Many smilies)
17.454BSS::JCOTANCHColorado Football: #1 for 1990Mon Mar 11 1991 15:4918
>    Virginia is in for a tough one since they are
>    basically a very small team, Shawn Bradley should have a field day...
   
    Bradley isn't very physical and is prone to foul trouble.  But his size
    is definitely hard to overcome, especially if you don't have anyone to
    match up who matches up with him well.  As for BYU playing in Salt
    Lake, it is only about 50 miles from the BYU campus, but BYU is *not*
    well-liked by the Utah fans or anyone else around the WAC.  Friday
    night against Hawaii in the WAC semis, it was like a home game for
    Hawaii, and there weren't any true Hawaii fans at the game.  But any
    Utah fans who don't follow the Utes to Tucson and decide to attend the
    games in Salt Lake, they definitely won't be pulling for conference
    neighbor BYU.
    
    Ohio State is another school who is playing close to home, in Dayton.
    
    Joe 
 
17.455Carolina prone to periods of extreme tentativeness...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Mar 11 1991 15:5818
    
    Sounds like some serious hard-core blackmail material to me, Bob.  What
    was that you were telling ACChris about revenge being sweet a couple of 
    weeks ago?  And he thought you were talking about Virginia-Carolina
    basketball...
    
    The only ACC action I saw all weekend was the second half of the
    UVa-UNC game, and Carolina looked terrible.  Obviously I saw them at
    their lowest point since they did win it all, but you talk about flat!
    The Baby Blues were standing around, Dean was looking frenzied, and
    when a couple of generous calls went Virginia's way and Carolina 
    picked up the T, well, I thought maybe the Cavs were gonna blow right 
    by them.  They didn't, but Carolina certainly can't expect to take 10
    minutes off in the NCAAs like that, at least not after the first round.
    What'd Dean put in the water at halftime, anyway?
    
    glenn
     
17.456Pepper my prom dateSHALOT::MEDVIDwild but not lostMon Mar 11 1991 16:077
    FWIW, Chris's underwear are not baby blue.  
    
    Chris, never believe a stripper when they promise not to pull your
    pants down.  Like dogs and bees, they can smell fear a mile away. 
    Sorry you had to learn the "hard" way.
    
    	--dan'l
17.457Cap, only a mere shell of his former self ... :-)EARRTH::BROOKSNah .... tax problems ...Mon Mar 11 1991 16:115
    re .447
    
    Like I said, see how personally you're taking stuff ?
    
    I'd laugh at you, but it's really sad to watch you in action now ...
17.458The Huntington Ave. Huskies roooooole !EARRTH::BROOKSNah .... tax problems ...Mon Mar 11 1991 16:137
    re .451
                                                            
    Jeff, what makes you think that NC will get by Northeastern ?
    
    :-)
    
    Doc
17.459EARRTH::BROOKSNah .... tax problems ...Mon Mar 11 1991 16:174
    re . 453
    
    Pepper was probably the reason why Dean stayed seated for the entire
    Duke game ... if ya know what I mean .... :-)
17.460RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JONortheastern to beat the tarhellsMon Mar 11 1991 16:393
    So Doc, re .458 - you jumping on my alma mater's bandwagon???
    
    JD
17.461VAXWRK::NEEDLEMoney talks. Mine says &quot;Good-Bye!&quot;Mon Mar 11 1991 17:356
>>                                                            
>>    Jeff, what makes you think that NC will get by Northeastern ?
>>    

I don't ;-).  But I couldn't very well say that Princeton would beat
Northeastern in the ACC note.  Cap would be all over my sh*t ;-).
17.462Huskies win = ACC Chris' worst nightmare !LUNER::BROOKSNah .... tax problems ...Mon Mar 11 1991 17:4711
    JD, it isn't a matter of wagon-jumping. As I've said from DAy 1, I
    expect a Arkansas/UNLV title game.
    
    I just get incredibly rooooowaaard thinking about the heat that ACC
    Caught will, uh, catch if the Huskies apply the hammer in the opening
    round.
    
    Besides, if I start grad school next quarter, it may become my alma
    mater too .....
    
    Doc
17.463SACT41::ROSSJohnHolmes,HarryReems,ACCChrisMon Mar 11 1991 17:502
What does Coach K do with Hurley next year?   Does he show any sign of
improving?  
17.464More on the tournament ...SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsMon Mar 11 1991 18:1165
 Other random thoughts and observations from the ACC Tournament ...
 
 We've all listened to MrT moan and wail over the years about how the ACC
 Tournament is just an exercise in raking in huge financial profits.  Well,
 after seeing this tournament up close and personal, if you will, I say BFD
 if it is ...  
 
 Trust me, the wealthy blue bloods who annually attend this tournament can
 afford the luxuries of life.   I've never seen more BMWs, Mercedes, and
 Jags in one parking lot in my life.  And each one with yet another cutesy
 vanity license plate like ... "GO DUKE" or "HEELS 1" or "WOLFPAK".   This
 was *not* a WWF crowd ... this was very old, very much of it, Southern
 white money.  100% Grey Poupon, for sure.
 
 Believe me, if this was a ripoff, *NOBODY* was complaining.
 
 Tickets were almost impossible to come by on Friday and Saturday but they
 were in abundance on Sunday for the final.  Everybody wanted a pair the
 first two days but people were practically giving them away yesterday.  
 The crowd yesterday was solid blue ... Carolina and Duke.  All the NC
 State red, Clemson orange, Wahoo orange and blue, and Wake and Tech black
 and gold were gone.
 
 NC State had the most acrobatic cheerleaders ... Geez, these girls were
 testing some new aerodynamic theories or something.   The guy cheerleaders
 (sigh, how do you get one of *those* jobs ???) would fling them way way
 way up in the air, they'd spin, flip, tumble and twirl and then land
 gently in the guys' arms.  The Duke students had a funny cheer for them,
 though, on Saturday ... "Cir-cus Re-jects, Cir-cus Re-jects, ..."
 
 The Duke girls were pathetic.   Looked like they were ready for a
 50s' style sock hop after the big game.   Not much rhythm and not much
 "talent", either.
 
 The Carolina girls looked a bit on the scrawny side to me but they were
 very energetic.   They did hold up signs for their fans to use in spelling
 C-A-R-O-L-I-N-A and U-N-C.  Made me wonder if they teach English in Chapel
 Hill.
 
 The Georgia Tech girls looked great but they didn't have much to cheer
 about.  Same goes for the Clemson babes.   The Wake cheerleaders wore
 black with gold trim.  I dunno, to me, black just doesn't look good on
 cheerleaders.   Don't know whether to cheer or mourn.   
 
 My Wahoo-ettes looked mighty tasty in their bright orange and blue getups
 but, to be honest, they haven't changed their cheers in years.  They need
 some new material.  PLus they also held up big cardboard letters for us to
 use to help spell U-V-A.  Only they held up two of each like this ...
 U-U-V-V-A-A.    My intelligence was insulted.  :-)
 
 I can see now why NCAA and conference probation is such a bitter pill to
 swallow.  Maryland missed out on this year's tourney and I can imagine
 that their fans and players were pissed.  It's a very exciting atmosphere
 and the crowd really gets into it.
 
 The Charlotte Coliseum is a gorgeous facility.   Traffic in and out was a
 dream compared to the messes I was used to in Philly.   
 
 During the national anthem, they showed film footage of US troops coming
 home to Fort Bragg in Fayetteville, NC.  Not a dry eye in the house.   I
 like the shots where the little kids squirm outta mom's arms and go racing
 across the tarmac where dad scoops 'em up.   Whoooo, that's nice to see. 
 All politics aside, I love seeing this stuff.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.465UNC deserved, UNLV deserved, Arkansas deserved; that's itHOTSHT::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitMon Mar 11 1991 20:4714
    >Indiana finished #3 overall in the national
    >polls and with a conference championship deserved a #1 seed.
    
    If they had wrested away one it should have been Ohio State's who has
    been doing some major gagging down the stretch.  But even still, IU
    doesn't have much to complain about.  I think they're in the easiest
    bracket and should be prohibitive favorites to reach the round of 8.
    
    Cap, now that you've gotten the obligatory UNC and Smith bashing out of
    the way, isn't it about time you guys start praising the living
    daylights out of Coastal Carolina just in case they remind Bob of the
    California Golden Bears?
    
    Dan
17.466STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishTue Mar 12 1991 10:5926
    Re. Dan
    
    Agree on the Ohio St. issue as well........
    
    As far as this year's team goes, I won't be worried or upset when they
    bow out.  I don't expect a title run this year.  They are too weak in 
    the middle to put up a serious run.  The next two years I expect title
    runs, when Henderson arrives.... The Hoosiers are still young, all but
    Lyndon Jones are sophomores or freshman in their 9 man rotation.  Young
    teams are prone to upsets, but we'll see how they do.....
    
    I was very surprised with a Big10 title this year, I figured IU would
    finish 3rd behind Michigan St. and Ohio State.  Knight definately has
    this team playing past my expectations.  The game with Ohio St. was the
    best game of the year and probably the best game of the last 5
    years....
    
    However, I do hope for a meeting with UNLV.  I think Indiana and Knight
    would present serious problems for Tark and the Rebels.  IU plays a
    very deliberate and patient offense and would not get burned on the 
    break-away fast breaks that UNLV scores so often on.  
    
    It should be a good tourney this year, I expect alot of surprising upsets. 
    I believe parity has reached the college ranks....
    
    Cap
17.467IU shoulda gone over OSU, but certainly not UNCRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Mar 12 1991 11:379
    I wonder how Mr. Feinstein and Bill Littlefield feel now that Carolina
    finished in the top 4 in the country.  Their senseless and uncalled for
    remarks about Carolina's #1 seed coming solely because of Dean's
    whining were completely without backing fact or logic.
    
    Me thinks they're taking some justified heat right now.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.468In general, can't understand all the fuss over seedings anyway...NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Mar 12 1991 11:5814
    
    > I wonder how Mr. Feinstein and Bill Littlefield feel now that Carolina
    > finished in the top 4 in the country.  Their senseless and uncalled for
    > remarks about Carolina's #1 seed coming solely because of Dean's
    > whining were completely without backing fact or logic.
    
    Chris, haven't you been the one complaining for years now about Duke's
    inside man giving them favorable treatment in the NCAA seedings? 
    Considering that Duke beat Carolina 2 out of 3 and won the more
    important regular-season ACC championship, I'd say you've got some egg
    on your face, too.
    
    glenn
    
17.469Carolina's romp was the differenceSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsTue Mar 12 1991 13:2417
 Carolina got the top seed simply because they blew out Duke by 22 points
 in the ACC final.   Duke's No. 2 seed in the Midwest and Carolina's No. 1
 seed in the East had to have been pre-slotted by the selection committee.
 
 My opinion ... if the final game had been a tight one, regardless of
 outcome, the East top seed would have gone to Duke.   
 
 They probably could have ignored a UNC buzzer-beater win and still given
 the East nod to Duke because of their regular season sweep over the Dirty
 Feet.  The selection committee just couldn't ignore the fresh romp and,
 thus, gave the East top seed to Carolina.
 
 It's all pretty academic anyway.  Dean will make the Sweet Sixteen for the
 11th year in a row and then they'll catch a return flight back to Chapel
 Hill shortly thereafter.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.470CoYRAVEN1::B_ADAMSHotlanta is getting warmer!Tue Mar 12 1991 17:426
    
    	WF's Odem got Coach of the Year with Robinson second!
    
    	Congrat's...
    
    B.A.
17.471ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYSodomWDavisFennerWorthyACChrisTue Mar 12 1991 18:3737
    The Almost Close is almost close to having a Champ: If you like round
    robin even-steven competition Duke's the Champ.  If you like rubber
    match 2-out-of-3 jobs Duke's the Champ.  If you like, as Bob Hunt does,
    meaningless money-grubbing spectacles, then nobody's the Champ.
    
    Whatever the case, pointing to prior 10 games or recent performances
    or total number of wins penalizes honest competition and favors the
    gratuitous kind.  Bob Hunt seems amazed that a tourney is exciting.  Is
    he just as surprised, then, that his regular season is yet again proved
    to be void of import and even symbolic weight?
    
    re: Cap
    
    Small nit, but Eric and Matt-the-Stiff are both juniors.  Coastal
    Carolina is IU's worst nightmare: A very big, very quick, highly athletic
    front-line.  If they beat CC they're looking at more of the same in FSU.
    
    But the Hoosiers are running Bob's offense at 100% (the first time one
    of his teams has attained Mantra in years), doesn't turn the ball over,
    and plays tough D.  On the downside, they're too small to rebound well
    or intimidate inside shots, and as a guard-dominated squad shoot poorly
    from the outside.  Indiana has a deep but deeply flawed squad that lacks
    a middlemain, a quality back-up forward, and a 3-point ace.  But they're
    highly optimized.
    
    If Indiana shoots well from the outside they'll make the Final 8 and
    then get mainhandled by Arkansas' superior physical talent.  If they
    shoot poorly they could lose any game, including CC.
    
    Don't bother falsely charging me with Doug Ross-style poor-mouthing,
    for Dick Vitale, Rick Pitino, Billy Packer, and Jim Valvano all have said
    the same.
    
    A small, poor outside shooting team Big10 Champ and #3 in the nation?  
    Bob is a lock for CoTY IMNSHO.  Kudos, Robert!
    
    Big10 Tom
17.472Dear AP - read my letter of disagreementCST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Tue Mar 12 1991 19:2837
    
    Dear AP Team Selection Committee,
    
    	I would like to preface my comments with a caveat that I am not a
    religious fanatic or a card carrying member of either Jihad(tm).
    
    	I strongly disagree with your decision to put Kenny Anderson on the
    1st Team All-American this year.  Last year, maybe.  I feel that this
    year, Kenny hasn't consistently demonstrated that the is the best in
    the country in that position.  True, he's shown some incredible and
    occasionally superhuman moves (i.e. the Bobby Hurley
    spin-around-and-score moves), but the several times I've seen him play,
    he hasn't shown the down 'n dirty hustle wanna abuse my body style of
    play.  This is what I watch NCAA BBall for - the competitiveness and
    spirit of this noble game.
    	I am an admirer of Kenny, and I'm very proud to identify with him
    through our common High School but, in trying to be objective and not a
    homer, I believe you made the wrong choice.  Had Kenny clearly shown
    that he was the best, in all his games, at his position, I'd be
    inclined to agree with your selection.  
    	In my opinion, based solely on the BBall games I have watched this
    year and cognicent of the fact that I am subject to East Coast Biases
    Based On Broadcast Media (ECBBOBM) and have see few non-EC games, I
    have formed the following opinion which I'd like to share with you.
    	Kenny Anderson has all the skills to be a great draw with the
    professionals which is why I believe you were hoodwinked by all the "Kenny
    Anderson is god" stuff and were not able to see who the best college
    player was.  In my opinion, the player who most consistently seemed to
    be the best player to epitomize what the College game (and not the Pro
    game) was Chris Corchianni.
    	Please rescind your announcement, revise it, and re-publish it.
    
    
    Thanks in advance,
    Kev_sometimes_a_purest
    
    
17.473I agree - no way does Kenny deserve 1st team AARHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Mar 12 1991 19:331
    
17.474Rick did slighly less with much lessHOTSHT::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitTue Mar 12 1991 19:4229
    >regular season is yet again proved
    >to be void of import and even symbolic weight?
    
    Proved??  How?  All I've seen is jealous nonsense.  Did the players
    feel the regular season void of import?  Did the coaches?  Did the
    attending fans?  Did the viewing fans?  Did the students at the
    respective universities?  The professors?  The guy who scrubs dishes in
    the cafeteria?  The librarian?  The rent-a-cops?  
    
    Did anyone in any way connected with the conference find themselves
    saying "gee, the regular season just isn't important."  who otherwise
    would find it important if they abandoned the conference tournement?
    
    >Coastal                                                                    
    >Carolina is IU's worst nightmare: A very big, very quick, highly athletic
    >front-line.  If they beat CC they're looking at more of the same in FSU.
    
    Whooooosh!  Thanks, MrT.  Cap let me down and I've been holding my
    breath ever since I asked for the whiney, pandering, poor-mouth
    special.  BTW, IU has been installed as 20+ point favorites against the
    might Chanticleers.  Do you recall how much they were favored against
    the Golden Bears last year?  I ask, not to rub it in but to provide
    further poor-mouth material just in case.
    
    >Bob is a lock for CoTY IMNSHO.  Kudos, Robert!
    
    Hold the Kudos.  Patino coached rings around him.
    
    Dan
17.475STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishWed Mar 13 1991 10:5118
    ACChris,
    
    Pick up a National today....  On pg. 6 it has an article by Mr.
    Feinstein on Dean Smith.  The Title of the Story is.....
    
    Dean Smith a Winner and a WHINER....
    
    The story goes on to talk about Dean's childish mind games, his
    incredible pettiness, his prejudices towards anyone who is not from
    North Carolina and his vindictiveness towards those he does not agree
    with.....
    
    The best quote in the article is from Lefty Driesell....
    
    "Dean Smith is the only man in history to win 700 games and be the 
     underdog in every one of them."
    
    Cap
17.476Useless drivel, but I'm sure it sells. :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 13 1991 12:327
    News of Feinstein's apparent hatchet job on Dean goes a *long* way
    toward explaining his silly, uncalled for, and wholly ridiculous
    comments about Carolina getting the #1 seed in the East only because of
    Dean's "whining".
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.477So Cap, is Feinstein now a credible writer ?EARRTH::BROOKSNah .... tax problems ...Wed Mar 13 1991 12:351
    Sounds like The Gospel to me ..... :-)
17.478Everybody's out of the closet...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 13 1991 12:448
    
    >           -< So Cap, is Feinstein now a credible writer ? >-
    
    Touche', but I hope that the ACC crew is consistent with their opinion
    of Mr. Feinstein's past works, too...
    
    glenn
    
17.479My honest vote for one...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 13 1991 12:5317
    
    In response to Dan's question, yes, I personally feel that the ACC
    regular season was cheapened this year when a team with the best record
    and the best record against their chief competitor (2-1) goes home as
    Number 2.  If UNC-Duke had split home-and-away, that'd been another
    story, but not even a blowout in a single game at a neutral site should
    erase a season sweep, including a near-blowout on the opponents' court
    not two weeks earlier.
    
    It can also be argued (and has) that with the *real* tournament right
    around the corner, those major conference post-season tournaments are 
    less meaningful and less contested than even the regular-season matches.
    Comparing Duke's NCAA performance with their ACC tournament performance 
    in the recent past would give some credence to that theory.
    
    glenn
    
17.480Interesting question: Did magnitude of 'W' make a difference?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 13 1991 13:3819
    If BobHunt or TTom had_a ounce of intellectual honesty they'd pipe in
    now 'bout how the ACC determines its Champion (capital 'C') based on
    the tournament, not the regular season.
    
    Somehow I doubt they will, but rest assured that if fortunes were
    reversed (UNC wins regular season; anybody_else wins tourney) we'd 
    be indoctrinated a_plenty.  (BTW, this scenario has played itself
    out many times.  We've been far more successful winning regular season
    titles than ACC Tournament titles.)
    
    For the record though, Dean and I agree with you Glenn.  The regular
    season *should* be more difficult to win and have more credibility.
    However that's simply not the way the ACC choses to select its
    champion.  Keep in mind however that it's entirely possible for a
    scenario to develop that has a team get swept and *still* win the
    regular season title.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4817221::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Wed Mar 13 1991 13:3922
    Reasons for the continued existence of a post-season tournament:
    
    1.  Tradition, which is really only true for the ACC
    2.  Pre-NCAA tuneup
    3.  Giving teams with a poor regular-season record a chance for
    redemption.
    4.  In the case of a "weaker" conference, providing impetus for its
    champion to get in.
    5.  Publicity
    6.  Fund raising.  Tickets are generally available only to the alumni
    who give lots of money to the Athletic Department and it's an important
    incentive for money giving.  I had been giving money to Syracuse during
    Coach MacPherson's tenure there and I'm not where close to having given
    enough money to have a prayer of getting tickets to either the Big East
    or NCAA tournament.
    
    In the early days of the ECAC in hockey, before teams played a truly
    balanced schedule, they started a post-season tournament to, in part,
    even out the scheduling inequities.  Those don't exist anymore in any
    college hockey league so there's really no reason to continue it.
    
    John
17.482Magnitude? If shouldn't have, except as last tie-breaker...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 13 1991 13:5320
    > If BobHunt or TTom had_a ounce of intellectual honesty they'd pipe in
    > now 'bout how the ACC determines its Champion (capital 'C') based on
    > the tournament, not the regular season.
    
    I don't care so much about who the ACC says is their champion, but was
    referring more to the seeding.  In spite of what the NCAA guidelines 
    might be, it didn't make much sense to me.  Bob pointed out that the 
    NCAA likes the "hot" team, but even there I don't see how with 
    Carolina struggling against Clemson and Virginia in the tourney and 
    with Duke beating Carolina on the weekend before *at Carolina* that 
    really holds up in their favor either.
    
    Again, no big deal because I don't think that Duke is at any disadantage
    at #2 in the Midwest, but I can see where an argument can be made that
    Carolina shouldn't have got #1.  The stuff about Dean being a whiner
    and all is another story entirely...
    
    glenn
       
17.483Plenty of evidence to support a #1 seed over DukeRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 13 1991 13:595
    Keep in mind glenn that Carolina is ranked higher than Duke in 
    all the polls.  We also had a higher Power Rating.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4847221::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Wed Mar 13 1991 14:097
    In the interests of intellectual honesty as well, if the Tournament
    Champion of the ACC is the ACC's champion for that year, then the
    regular season title means *NOTHING* and then no school has the right
    to hang a banner from its rafters declaring itself the regular season
    champion.  Means as much as finishing 8th does.
    
    John
17.485exSTRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishWed Mar 13 1991 14:2412
    
    ACChris,
    
    Is anything that Feinstein wrote about Dean true?  Is he really like
    that?  Why does Feinstein all of a sudden have something against Smith?
    
    I've heard similar comments about Smith in articles and interviews
    before.....
    
    If you want I'll photocopy the article for you and send it to you?
    
    Cap
17.4861st place finish well worth a banner IMORHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 13 1991 14:4810
    re: .484
    
    Not true John.  Several years ago Jim Valvano got the league to finally
    recognize the regular season champion.  They now receive recognition
    and a trophy.
    
    Anyways a school can pretty much hang anything it wants in the rafters.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.487AXIS::ROBICHAUDGo Northeastern! What a Team!!Wed Mar 13 1991 15:277
	I just read the article and see nothing wrong with it.  If the 
instances Feinstein refers to are false then he's about as low as a snake's 
belly.  But if the instances are true and he interprets paranoid actions as 
being paranoid, then what's the problem?  You said it yourself Chris, if it 
smells like a duck and it walks like a duck, and it quacks...

				/Don
17.4887221::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Wed Mar 13 1991 15:3518
    Sorry, Chris, can't agree with you.  Using the "duck" logic - if the
    automatic bid, and the notoriety, and the trophy and the nets being cut
    down all happen in a conference tournament and not in a regular season
    then a regular season title is meaningless and doesn't really deserve
    to be recognized.  The regular season is merely a jockeying for
    position for the post season.
    
    I personally prefer a system where the regular season really means
    something, rather than just setting ones self up for a post season
    tournament.
    
    This isn't a bash at the ACC, either.  I applaud the Celtics for not
    hanging divisional championship banners, either, because they don't
    mean much.  I disagree with the Bruins for hanging so many divisional
    championship banners because in the ultimate scheme of things, the
    Adams Division doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot.
    
    John
17.489MrT - No Wardle ..... so farEARRTH::BROOKSNah .... tax problems ...Wed Mar 13 1991 15:364
    I must commend MrT on his abscence. He is staying true to his
    convictions about Mr Feinstein, and avoiding the debate.
    
    frankly T, I didn't think you had it in you - congrats !
17.490QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Wed Mar 13 1991 15:5616
If you had 30 to 40 teams in a Conference, and they were in different
`brackets', I could see having a tournament between bracket winners and
runnerups to find a season champ. But with so few teams, and everybody
playing every other team twice, the tournament is a joke. The regular
season should provide the Champ.

What might make more sense:

Since the highlight of the year is the NCAA Tourney, why not have the
first and second place teams for the season get an automatic to the
NCAA, and have the rest of the pack play the end of season tourney for
ranking in case of extra slots in the NCAA, if warranted by overall
record, strength of schedule, etc.

???????
Mike JN
17.491real dealHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughWed Mar 13 1991 16:2225
Chris, cut the intellectual honesty crap.

The ACC basketball champion is the winner of the ACC basketball
tournament.  This year, No Carolina is the ACC basketball champion
because they won that tournament. Is that clear?

On the issue of "regular season best record", that's much more of a Tar
Heel issue than anything else. True, Valvano started a conference trophy
for this honor but it has no relationship to who becomes the conference
championship. Chris, you yourself have defended the value of that trophy.

Now, we can all argue on why the ACC does it this way - determine the
conference basketball championship by its tournament - and even if they
will ever change it, should change it, etc. But this is the way it has
always been for the ACC. Is money involved? Sure as hell. Always has
been. But all you get for having the best regular season record is your
name on some trophy and the #1 seed in the tournament.

Because of the way the NCAAs are invited, it matters little outside the
conference who its champion is anyway. Indiana and Ohio State tied. Ohio
State lost its last couple and their a #1. Indiana is a #2. Duke had the
best regular season record, beat No Carolina 2-1 overall and their a #2
while No Carolina is a #1.

TTom
17.492Regular season more important than ever in ACCSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsWed Mar 13 1991 16:5953
 Yawn.  Yet another classic SPORTS rathole rises from the ashes.
    
 There's very little meat left on this horse's bones, boys ...
 
 The ACC's annual hoops champion is the tournament winner, period.  End of
 story.  Back when the NCAA invited one and only one team from each
 conference, the ACC Tournament was a blood and nails, three-day *WAR* with
 only one army left standing at the end.   The regular season meant
 absolutely nothing except for seeds in the tournament.   The 1970 South
 Carolina Gamecocks were ranked No. 2 in the nation and lost in the
 tournament and went to the NIT.   So much for their regular season,
 wouldn't you say ???
 
 When the NCAA invited two teams from each conference, the regular season
 became slightly more important because it de facto guaranteed a berth to
 the regular season winner in addition to the tournament champ should they
 turn out to be different teams.   In 1976, top seed UNC lost in the
 tournament finale to sixth seeded Virginia and they both went to the Big
 Dance.   The regular season was important to UNC and the tournament was
 important to the Hoos.
 
 Now, with unlimited conference representation, the regular season actually
 assumes even more importance than ever before since most of the so-called
 experts can look at a team and figure out who's in the Big Dance and who's
 not well before the ACC Tournament begins.   
 
 We all knew that Duke, Carolina, State, and Wake were in, that Ga Tech and
 Virginia were on the bubble, that Clemson would have to win the
 tournament, and that Maryland was going home to think about lacrosse
 season.   Simple enough.
 
 So, in retrospect, despite MrT's broken record pissing and moaning about
 the tournament, the ACC's regular season has gone from ... 1) no
 importance whatsoever ... to 2) medium importance ... to 3) life-and-death
 importance.  
 
 Meanwhile, the ACC tournament has gone the opposite direction ... 1) from
 an all-out war ... to 2) one for sure and somebody else ... to 3) nobody
 cares except the bottom seeds.   So where's the beef, T ???  I thought an
 important regular season was what you wanted anyway ???
 
 As for the money-grubbing aspects of the tournament, once again, I say
 BFD.   Nobody was putting a gun to nobody's haid to force them to pay to
 see this thang.   It's a free market, supply and demand society and the
 Southern blue bloods are more than happy to pay for their hoops weekends.
 
 Next rathole ...
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  Better be careful, Soup, or we'll send a Paper Doll postcard from
 Pepper to your house begging you to come back and shake some more of your
 baby blue booty.
17.493For example: are hoops conf. champs as memorable as football's?NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 13 1991 17:4127
    
    So the ACC is effectively caught in an identity crisis.  While they
    recognize the tournament winner as The Champ, everyone concedes that
    it's not as big a deal what with the watered-down NCAA field.  That
    leads to less inspired play, leaving the regular-season champ 
    scratching its head as to what the heck the tourney's there for 
    anyway.
    
    Sure, none of this makes a bit of difference as concerns the NCAA
    tournament.  In that game, it's the regular season that matters most.
    But certainly the ACC flag should mean something, right?  While at one
    time a brawl for it all had real meaning as the goal was both the ACC
    championship *and* NCAA represention, that's by the boards now.  The
    ACC is now left with the worst of both worlds: a tournament with little
    meaning as far as the NCAAs go *and* the absence of a clear-cut 
    conference champ in the minds of many.
    
    The fact that the regular season has more meaning now has nothing to do
    with the ACC, but rather the NCAA structure.  The ACC regular season
    now has some importance, up from *no* importance, but only because of
    field expansion.  The PAC-10 and Big-10 regular seasons are obviously
    still *all-important*.  I'd say the post-season tournament formula has 
    become dated, if anything.
    
    glenn
      
    
17.494PoY...RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHotlanta is getting warmer!Wed Mar 13 1991 18:155
    
    ACC player of the year..Rodney Monroe N.C.State!
    
    
    B.A._go_pack!
17.495ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYACCrisp: MaleHumanAlumnusSlutWed Mar 13 1991 18:2539
    >I must commend MrT on his abscence [sic].  He is staying true to 
    >his convictions about Mr Feinstein, and avoiding the debate.
    >
    >frankly T, I didn't think you had it in you - congrats !
    
    Frankly, Midnight, congrat's on your betrothal!  Personally, I think
    your [sic] too young to be getting engaged, but aim THRILLED that you
    were able to hook up with your fiancee in a notesfile, this shows a
    certain resiliency on your part given your slippery repugnant noter
    personage.  Seriously, congrat's and may you have a happy marriage and
    many strong healthy children, and may your sons have the moral fiber to
    one day play point guard for Bob.  
    
    Will you invite me to the wedding?
    
    On your other point, I have NO idea what Feinstein wrote about Reverend
    Underachievement, and have no particular convictions about Feinstein.
    He used his contact with CoachK to cajole a handshake agreement out of
    Bob, broke it, and ground out a classic hatchet sensationalist job of
    yellow (pseudo) journalism and becamae a_overnight millionaire.  
    
    Does this impugn this PubicHareBrainedScumBucket's remaining credibility
    in the Smif' matter?  Yes.  Does it mean whatever he wrote ain't true?
    No.  One must isolate what, if any, corroborate substantive meaty stuff
    is in it, and then decide.  Objectively.
    
    re: Almost Close to having a Champ
    
    I get it: The Almost Close has *two* Chimps: A regular season champ,
    and post-season money-grubbing spectacle champ.  Vewy good.  Two champs
    based on two entirely different forms of selection.
    
    One thing, in either case, is fer sure: The Almost Close regular season
    is nothing more than a warm up, a_exhibition season, so to speak.
    
    The effect of the PSMGS has on the NCAA selection committee is without
    significance in this matter.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.496Sort of irrelevant; don't you agree?HOTSHT::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitWed Mar 13 1991 18:459
    Cap, I just read the article by Feinstein.  Aside from the tabloidal
    headline, there's not much meat in there.  Feinstein goes as far back
    as the press conference after Dean's only title in relating about 5
    different stories where he (JF) perceived that Dean thought the media
    wasn't being friendly enough.
    
    It rates a big So What?
    
    Dan
17.497Better get my umbrella out; T's doing it againSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsWed Mar 13 1991 19:0325
17.498Such a shame: a weekend of great competitionHOTSHT::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitWed Mar 13 1991 19:0629
    >That
    >leads to less inspired play, leaving the regular-season champ 
    >scratching its head as to what the heck the tourney's there for 
    >anyway.                                                        
    
    Less inspired play?  Pardon me, but I didn't notice any in recent
    years.  I've watched parts of the ACC tourney in the past, and it's
    always been highly competitive action.  I had the pleasure of watching
    the Big East tourney live this year, and there was plenty of
    inspiration to pass around.  Do you really perceive that the players
    aren't trying as hard?  If so, I'd blame the coaches, and not the
    format.  Granted the growth of the importance of the NCAAs has dwarfed
    almost everything else in college hoops, but if a league wants to hold
    further competition, I'm not going to bellyache about my opportunity to
    watch it.
    
    >...a tournament with little
    >meaning as far as the NCAAs go *and* the absence of a clear-cut 
    >conference champ in the minds of many.         
    
    But everyone has agreed that 1) the tourney has a great deal of meaning
    to the teams on the cusp, and as much meaning as a conference champion
    banner to the league as a whole, and 2) the minds of the ACC noters in
    here (Bob, Chris and TTom) all seem to be unified in that the tourney
    produced the clear-cut conference champ - North Carolina.
    
    I fail to see your point.
    
    Dan
17.499uh-huhHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughWed Mar 13 1991 19:116
>    ... this PubicHareBrainedScumBucket's ...

Gee MrT. I'm glad you don't have any particular convictions about
Feinstein.

TTom
17.500They're fun; that's about it...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 13 1991 19:3727
                                              
    > I fail to see your point.
    
    It wasn't clear?  By way of analogy, I'd hate to see baseball go to a
    16-team postseason, where the top three (or four) teams in each 
    division plus the winner of a short, open divisional playoff are
    represented.  To add insult to injury, the winner of the redundant 
    divisional playoff, regardless of its standing in the 162-game regular 
    season, would be granted the privilege of flying the divisional title 
    flag.  
    
    You don't understand my point?  It's a matter of personal preference,
    stating: if teams play each other enough times in a balanced, 
    exhaustive and fair system there is no purpose in duplicating the
    effort with an unbalanced, incomplete, and unfair system for the 
    purpose of producing the same result, no matter how exciting the 
    process may be perceived.  Disagree if you will, but you still don't 
    read me?
    
    And let's face it, since the NCAAs are the big prize and the tourneys
    are secondary, do you really think that Syracuse was putting forth the
    effort that Villanova was?  How about LSU?  You think the Shack would
    have been sitting out if the conference championship *and* a postseason
    berth were at stake?  I could go on and on...
    
    glenn
     
17.501STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishWed Mar 13 1991 19:4320
    
    Dan,
    
    I did not put this in as a bash on Smith but rather was astonished that
    Feinstein did a hatchet job on him.  You obviously didn't read the same
    article I did.  Feinstein directly calls Smith extremely paranoid, says
    that at age 60, he plays childish mind games and infers that he is
    extremely prejudiced towards anyone who is not associated or from
    Carolina.  He also infers that Smith is extremely paranoid and
    vindictive.  I'm not saying that Feinstein is right or wrong in this
    matter but he definately was out to paint a bad picture of Smith.  You
    were a big Feinstein supporter from his book about Knight.  Do you
    agree with his assumptions about Dean?
    
    Show me one area in this 1500 word write up where Feinstein is not
    trying to cut Smith down.
    
    If I get a chance, I'll type the article up
    
    Cap
17.502More ...SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsWed Mar 13 1991 20:0225
17.503Fashion Update: Heels Go Rad In '92SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsWed Mar 13 1991 20:0920
 I almost forgot one other little juicy tidbit reported in the papers last
 weekend during the tournament ...
 
 Carolina is getting new uniforms and warmups next year.   I read two
 conflicting accounts, however.   The new designer is either Alexander
 Julian *or* Florence Griffith-Joyner.
 
 Juilan is the dude who designed the Hornets' uniforms.   He did a good job
 with those, in my opinion.   He also decked out the Charlotte Knights, our
 AA Cubs minor league team, in all-black with 13 different multi-colored
 pin stripes.  Brutal.   Sports Illustrated did a short piece on them last
 year and ripped them apart.   They were actually worse than any factory
 league softball team's outrageous getups.
 
 Flo-Jo, of course, designed some great women's track suits.   It remains
 to be seen if she can handle hoops fashion.   If we see the Baby Bluesters
 come out next year in one-legged leather and lace, we'll know why to start
 laughing.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.504request for articleHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughWed Mar 13 1991 20:1519
Cap,

Thanks for the offer to type this in. I'd like to read it. (I'll even
settle for a xerox sent interoffice mail to CEO).

I think it's wonderful irony that Feinstein has successfully united the
Bobby Knight camp with the Dean Smith camp in their assessment of the
author. Didn't he write something about Duke? Personally, having seen him
a number of times on the ESPN reporters show, and he appears to be the
standard editorial-journalist type who is much more interested in his
opinions that anything else.

The talk of Dean's "paranoia" or whatever about us vs them is considered
a virtue among his fans. From the first day in camp (maybe before) it's
all team and nothing but the team, so help them, Dean. However, on his
takl show, it's pretty obvious who he likes (e.g., Jim Valvano) and who
he doesn't (e.g, Duke's K).

TTom
17.505The evidence supporting your point is unclearHOTSHT::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitWed Mar 13 1991 21:1027
    >By way of analogy, I'd hate to see baseball go to a
    >16-team postseason, where the top three (or four) teams in each 
    >division plus the winner of a short, open divisional playoff are
    >represented.
    
    I'd hate that too, but I recognize that it has nothing to do with a
    conference tournement and the NCAAs.  I see them as separate events
    which stand by themselves.  Sure the tourney results have weight in the
    NCAA selection committee's decisions, but I beleive the mistake you
    make is believing the the NCAA tourney is the only object of college
    basketball in comparing it to baseball's quest for the WS.  It isn't
    and it shouldn't be.
    
    >...there is no purpose in duplicating the
    >effort with an unbalanced, incomplete, and unfair system for the 
    >purpose of producing the same result
    
    I fail to see how the conference tourneys are unbalanced, incomplete
    and unfair.  And the fact is, they often produce a different result.
    
    Having seen Syracuse fail many times in similar situations, regardless
    of whether they occur in tournements or not, I won't hold the format
    against them as you do.  Likewise, the information on Shaq's injury
    necessitated he miss time.  You could go on and on, but just admit it's
    speculation and nothing more.
    
    Dan
17.506Much Ado about NothingHOTSHT::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitWed Mar 13 1991 21:2226
    >You obviously didn't read the same
    >article I did.  Feinstein directly calls Smith extremely paranoid, says
    >that at age 60, he plays childish mind games and infers that he is
    >extremely prejudiced towards anyone who is not associated or from
    >Carolina.
    
    Yep, that's the one I read.  To support his assertions, Feinstein chose
    an odd set of data points where Smith was less than gracious with some
    particular member of the media.  I find that Feinstein's evidence does
    not support his opinions and therefore I give it the "So What?".  
    
    For example, Feinstein's first story was how Smith reminded everyone
    that a certain writer claimed that the System would never produce a
    title.  Feinstein placed particular emphasis that these were Smith's
    first workds at the postgame press conference.  He calls it "The most
    obvious example of his behavior".  
    
    Well, if that's the most obvious example, and he's correct that few
    others are weaker, I can only conclude that Feinstein should have just
    editorialized, and left out the weak examples, obvious or not.
    
    And if it's all true that Dean's relationship with the media isn't a
    bed of roses, and that he prefer the friendly Carolina media, well
    knock me over with a feather and hold the New York Times front page...
    
    Dan
17.507Ahh, shaddap ...WAHOOS::HUNTParty on, dudes ...Wed Mar 13 1991 21:3118
  One thing that really kinda boggles my brain cells in this annual 
  hoo-hah over the ACC Tournament is who the hell cares anyway ???
  
  I mean if the ACC schools like it, if the ACC students like it, if the 
  ACC players and coaches like it, and if the ACC fans like it, then why 
  on earth should it not be held ???
  
  Methinks sometimes the Big Ten bigots doth protesteth too much.   
  Everytime an anti-Celtic or anti-Yankee potboil gets a_brewin' in here, 
  their faithful claim that the angry mob is jealous of their success.   
  
  Well, it would certainly seem to this ACC fan that the Big Tenners feel 
  a little green with envy each time this year.   After all, they had 
  *NO* clear cut champion this year, did they ???  Nope, just two schools 
  deep throating each other's sisters.   How exciting ... Big Ten 
  *CO*-Champs.   Ooooh, the shivers.
  
  Bob Hunt
17.508Seems pompous to me todayHOTSHT::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitWed Mar 13 1991 21:3417
    >You were a big Feinstein supporter from his book about Knight. 
    
    Not really accurate.  At this point in time, Feinstein strikes me as a
    writer who yearns to be a major player (as in mover, shaker, not guard,
    forward) in college basketball circles and has an overinflated opinion
    of himself and his views.  I only know him from his appearances on ESPN
    and his National articles.  The only book I've read is Season on the
    Brink, having passed over his other two (?) for now.
    
    If I'm correct, Season... was his first noteriety, and I found the
    story to be quite believable.  Its been a few years since I read it, so
    that may change.  He was basically an open mike, which at times proved
    embarassing for Knight and at times was compimentary.  It was an honest
    appraisal which basically painted the same picture that many other
    accounts have done (such as SI).
    
    Dan
17.509ACC had it first!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHotlanta is getting warmer!Wed Mar 13 1991 21:4514
17.510STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishThu Mar 14 1991 11:3427
    
    
    
    
    
    Dan you hit the nail on the head, Feinstein's article was an opinion
    on Dean the man backed by a few mere facts(your claim).  The exact
    same thing can be said about his book on Knight.  It was his opinions
    on what behind the scenes with Knight is all about.  I have never
    denied what was in the book, I have only said that in order to burst
    onto the national scene Feinstein exaggerated what life with Knight was
    like.  In every article that I've ever read by Feinstein on Knight
    since then has been quite complimentary.  As far at the SI
    confirmations, this is not true(p.s I have the article....).  Not once 
    did the SI article confirm anything negative that Feinstein wrote,
    unless you say that he loses his temper and yells at his players(which
    98% of all coaches do anyway).
    
    His write-up on Smith was once again an opinion that was far from being
    complimentary.  Me thinks that if he spent a full season with Smith
    that you would find that he could make Smith look as bad as he made
    Knight look on occasion.  In fact I have no doubt he could.
    
    I'll enter in Feinstein's article on Smith and everyone else can judge
    for themselves.
    
    Cap                           
17.511Letter to National already typed. (Now enter the article Cap)!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 14 1991 11:5750
> Carolina *basketball*, that is.  Smif' doesn't give a hoot and a half
> about any other aspect of the University Of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
> or the entire Tar Heel State for that matter.
 
> If you recall last year when his loyal subject reported to us that the Rev
> told the alums that, above all else, they should give jobs to his players,
> one could quickly conclude that Smif's alledged prejudiced favoritism
> towards North Carolina stops at *exactly* the last seat on his player's
> bench.

The singular evidence you present to "prove" that Dean doesn't give a
hoot about UNC-CH (namely, that he tries to find jobs for his ex-players)
is laughable Ketch.  You gotta do better than this.  Just *gotta*...

    
> I'd *love* to read Feinstein's article.  We don't get "The National" in
> Charlotte just yet.

Oh, I'm sure you would.  And it sounds like Cap is gonna make that possible.
And from the sound of things it's gonna be a real knockout blow for Dean.
Imagine him not bein' nice to the *media*, of all people!  Imagine him
actually offering a counter-blow to the idiot who made the comment his
'System' would never win a Title.  Imagine!

Don't they lock people up for these kinds of things?

 
> Oh, and another thing, after their win over Clemson last Friday when he
> started the 2nd half in a 2-3 zone, Dean denied he had called for a zone. 
> It was a "sagging man-to-man".   The man's exact words.

False.  We played *both* zone and sagging man-to-man in the second half.
Dean's never been afraid to call a spade a spade, and a zone a zone.
The 2-3 we were playing against Clemson could never be confused with any
kind of man-to-man, although Dean did switch off some to confuse the
opposition.  (The key to winning the game, BTW.)


> Carolina is getting new uniforms and warmups next year.   I read two
> conflicting accounts, however.   The new designer is either Alexander
> Julian *or* Florence Griffith-Joyner.

The last I heard on this was that Julian, a Carolina man, was designing
the new uniforms.  The only requirement Dean made was that our traditional
'V' neck be kept.  Also Michael Jordan will be modeling the new uniforms.
(Could choice Dean!)


- ACC Chris
    
17.512The only object? Where did you get that from my posting?NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Mar 14 1991 12:0430
                                                         
    > I'd hate that too, but I recognize that it has nothing to do with a
    > conference tournement and the NCAAs.  I see them as separate events
    > which stand by themselves.  Sure the tourney results have weight in the
    > NCAA selection committee's decisions, but I beleive the mistake you
    > make is believing the the NCAA tourney is the only object of college
    > basketball in comparing it to baseball's quest for the WS.  It isn't
    > and it shouldn't be.
    
    Forget the quest for the World Series or NCAA title.  I specifically
    mentioned the divisional (or conference) flag, which you omitted from 
    your extraction and are now pretending that I neglected.  Would you or
    would you not feel cheated if baseball declared divisional (or even
    league) champions via an open tournament, regardless of eventual
    representation in the World Series playoff?  I would.
    
    I ain't a Big 10 bigot, and am certainly not jealous of the ACC or any
    other conference or its tournament.  I don't watch them, really.  I'm
    chomping at the bit for the NCAAs, and I sense that many of the teams,
    players, and coaches are doing the same by the time the regular season 
    ends.  However, I don't begrudge any conference that wants to decide 
    their championship with a post-season tournament.  I just gave my
    opinion on the basis of *quality*, plain and simple...
    
    At least ACChris gave "his and Dean's" (do these two ever disagree on
    anything?) honest opinion on the matter, which was that the regular 
    season should be emphasized even more...
    
    glenn
    
17.513Regular season is everything alreadySHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Mar 14 1991 12:5118
17.514Conference pride...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Mar 14 1991 13:4321
    
 > What *more* emphasis could you put on the ACC's regular season that isn't
 > there now that would have made any difference at all in the conference's
 > representation in the Big Dance ???
    
    None.  But as Dan pointed out (and I agree with him), there's more to
    college basketball than the NCAAs.  The NCAAs are the biggest thing,
    just like the National Championship is tops in football, but conference
    bragging rights are important too.  In my opinion, those bragging
    rights mean much more in college football than basketball, simply
    because college football conferences make their decision based on 
    season-long preformance, not a post-season tournament that even 
    you've admitted has become de-emphasized. 
    
    Again, you don't have to agree, but what is so difficult about
    understanding this point of view?  No "evidence" from individual
    seasons is required to support this preference; the comparison 
    between regular-season and post-season is intrinsic... 
    
    glenn
    
17.515STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishThu Mar 14 1991 14:0237
    Before the article on Dean goes in, the National ranked the best and
    worst NCAA game coaches.... I pretty much agree but I would put Rollie
    ahead of Dean based on the coaching lesson he gave Deano in 85'.
    
    Here it is:
    
    Best
    ----
    
    1. Bob Knight:
       Yes the Mentor himself.  The fact is, if his team contends for the
       Big10 title in the regular season, it almost always does well in the 
       NCAA tourney.  Sure he's lost to underdogs - Cleveland St., Richmond
       - but never with one of his good teams.  One thing worth noting, his
       major outbursts always come in the first half.  During the last five
       minutes of a tight game, no one has a cooler head than Knight.  
    
    2. Dick Tarrant
    3. Pete Carril
    4. Mike Krzyzewski
    5. Dean Smith:
    6. Rollie Massimino
    7. Tom Penders
    8. Nolan Richardson
    
    The worst:
    
    1. Jim Boeheim                                                  
    2. Bill Frieder
    3. Bobby Cremins
    4. John Chaney
    5. Jim Harrick
    6. M.K Turk
    7. Dale Brown
    8. Jud Heathecoate
    
    	
17.516Article on Dean the manSTRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishThu Mar 14 1991 14:05126
                            DEAN SMITH A WINNER -
                                AND A WHINER

                              by John Feinstein

                         Reprinted without permission


"Dean Smith is the only man in history to win 700 games and be the underdog
in every one of them." - Lefty Driesell

	Actually Dean Smith has won 713 games at North Carolina - and been
the underdog in every one of them.

	His most recent victory, a 96-74 shellacking of duke in Sunday's ACC
tournament final, was a perfect example of why he has won so many games. 
Unfortunately, the tournament weekend was an equally good example of what his
old nemesis Driesell was talking about.

	Perhaps never in basketball history has a person so good at what he
does been so petty about so many things.  Always, he is seeking an edge, and at
the same time he always assumes that everyone else is doing the same thing.  He
categorically refuses to enjoy what he has wrought in 30 years in Chapel Hill. 
He can't resist taking swipes at people even in moment when he should be
reveling in an accomplishment.

	The most obvious example of this behavior came nine years ago, when the
TarHeels finally won the national title in Smith's SEVENTH trip to the Final
Four.  His first comment in the postgame press conference - FIRST COMMENT -
was, "Well, I guess we proved a very bright writer from Charlotte wrong
tonight."  The reference was to a story that had been written FIVE years
earlier, in which the writer had said the same things that made Carolina good 
every year kept the team from being great enough to win a national title.  Five
years later, in the hour of his greatest victory, that was the first thing Dean
Smith could think of to say.

	Always, it is this way.  Smith always has to label people.  If you
aren't from Carolina, then you are from Duke or Virginia or NC State or from 
the Big East or the Big Ten.  Last weekend, Smith kept turning down
Raycom/Jefferson-Pilot, the ACC TV syndicator, in its requests for one of those
brief pregame TV interviews.  On Sunday, the Raycom/JP people, assuming Smith
was turning them down because of time constraints, offered to mike him during
his pre-game radio show. 

	Smith still refused.  Baffled, the Raycom/JP people asked why.  Because
Raycom/JP "doesn't have anyone from North Carolina" among its commentators,
Smith said.  Is he serious?  You bet.  Forget that Billy Packer, a Wake Forest
grad, and Dan bonner, a Virginia grad, are probably the best color commentators
on the planet.  Forget that Len Elmore(Maryland), Tim Brant(Maryland) and Terry
Gannon(NC State) bend over backwards to praise Smith.  That's not good enough. 
Smith wants someone he can control on the air.

	That's Smith.  Everyone has to have a label.  Several years ago, when
Duke beat North Carolina in the ACC Tournament, Smith approached Keith Drum,
then the sports editor of the Durham Morning Herald and now the chief scout of
the Portland Trailblazers, and said, "Congratulations, Great win."

	Smith was implying that Drum, who gets along well with Coach Mike
Krzyzewski, was a Duke guy.  Forget the fact that Drum went to college at UNC.
He liked Krzyzewski.  That made him a Duke guy.

	Smith is particularly paranoid about Duke because it is eight miles
from Chapel Hill and because of its academic reputation.  When Duke is good,
Smith can't use the line about, "Well, we couldn't recruit a lot of their
players," as he has done in talking about other schools in the past.

	Over the years, he often has said to me, "Well, considering the fact
that you went to Duke, you've been very fair to us."  Why wouldn't someone -
regardless of where they went to school - be fair to one of the best programs
in America?  Smith has won consistently with good kids, most of whom graduate,
without any hint of scandal for 30 years.  Why can't he allow that record to
speak for itself.

	Why, at 60, can't he let go of his childish mind games?  On Saturday
after Carolina had beaten Virginia to reach the tournament final, Smith was
asked about a technical foul that had been called on assistant Dave Hanners.
	
	"Who asked that question?", Smith said, peering into the room.  It had
been asked by Jerry Lindquist of the Richmond Times-Dispatch.

	Seeing Lindquist, Smith smiled, "Oh, it's you Jerry.  That figured."

	To Smith it figured because Lindquist covers Virginia.  That makes him
a Virginia guy.  Do reporters have biases?  Of course.  But Smith ASSUMES BIAS,
regardless of the facts. ALWAYS.  The little putdowns and shots never cease.
That same day, standing in the tunnel during the last few minutes of Duke's
victory of NC State.  Smith told several people that Duke got away with more
fouls than any team in the country.  Then when someone asked him what would be
the key to the next day's game against Duke.  Smith answered, "Who's
refereeing?"

	As it turned out, Krzyzewski's mother, wife and oldest daughter could
have officiated and UNC would have won by 20.  But Smith had to get in his
shots.  Even after the rout, after a victory that should have been one of his
most gratifying in recent years.  Smith had his needle poised.  When someone
asked a softball question about where he expected to go in the NCAA Tournament,
Smith said, "Well, I talked to Mike(Krzyzewski) before the game and asked if he
had talked to Tom Butters and he said he hadn't."

	Tom Butters, Duke's athletic director, is on the NCAA selection
committee.  Smith's implication - CLEAR AS DAY TO ANYONE THAT HAS BEEN AROUND
HIM - was that Kzyzewski had a pipeline to the committee through Butters.  The
past two years, Smith has WHINED long and loud about where he has been sent in
the NCAA tournament, telling people with a smile on his face that Butters has
sure done a good job for his school.   Think he's joking?

	Not likely.  Two years ago, when Carolina beat Duke in the ACC Final,
the Tarheels were sent the the Southeast Regional and Duke to the East.  Both
were #2 seeds.  The thinking was that Carolina deserved to be in a region with
Oklahoma as the #1 seed rather than in one with Georgetown, the top-ranked team
in the country.  Smith didn't see it that way.  When Stanford, the third seed
in the East, was upset in the first round by Seina, giving Duke an eventual
round of 16 game against Minnesota, Smith was incensed.  And obsessed.  The Tar
Heels drew eventual national champion Michigan in the Round of 16.

	After they had lost a superb game, several reporters who had covered
the team all season tracked down Smith to thank him for his help.

	"It was a great year for your team," one of them said to Smith.

	"I just wish," Dean Smith said, "that we could have played Minnesota."

	No doubt if he had played Minnesota, Smith would have been the underdog
in that game, too.
    
17.5177221::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu Mar 14 1991 14:0843
    All I've ever said is this:
    
    For any league where the champion is determined by a tournament -
    
    	If the tournament champion and not the regular season champion is
    	determined to be the true "champion"
    
    	If the automatic NCAA bid goes to the tournament champion and not
    	the regular season champion
    
    	If the true excitement, cutting down the nets, trophies and so on
    	are awarded/happen based on what happens in the tournament and not
    	in the regular season
    
    Then -
    
    	The regular season championship is, in and of itself, meaningless
    	since the regular season therefore becomes a mere jockeying for
    	position in the tournament rather than something to be truly
    	cherished in and of itself and therefore shouldn't even be
    	recognized as something meaningful
    
    For the record:
    
    I don't feel this way just about the ACC.  I feel this way about
    every NCAA Division 1 hoops conference other than the Big 10, Ivy
    League and Pac 10.  I feel this way about every college hockey league. 
    I feel this way about every professional sport other than major league
    baseball because only in baseball is a divisional title really
    meaningful.
    
    I neither agree nor disagree with the concept of a conference
    post-season tournament but do feel it should not be used as a means of
    redemption from the season past.  In other words, I feel a team should
    get into a national tournament largely based on its regular season
    performance since the regular season to me is a more reliable indicator
    of a team's true ability.
    
    I also believe that the most useful purpose of a postseason tournament
    is to make money, from TV, from ticket sales and above all, as a fund
    raising tie-in.
    
    John
17.518Again, so what ???SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Mar 14 1991 14:1931
17.519It's what I'd expect from a Duke NerdRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 14 1991 14:3710
    Thanks for entering the article Cap.
    
    My reaction after reading it is simply that I can't believe The
    National would even print such a piece of drivel.  I mean, a
    whole article on a coaches dealing with the media?!  There's gotta be
    something more interesting to write about.  (Like, maybe, UNLV's 0%
    graduation rate for black athletes.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.520Still more ...SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Mar 14 1991 14:5113
17.521re: IFHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughThu Mar 14 1991 15:0325
RE: .517

>    	If the tournament champion and not the regular season champion is
>    	determined to be the true "champion"

This is true of the ACC. I don't think any other conference has its
tournament winner as the conference champion.
    
>    	If the automatic NCAA bid goes to the tournament champion and not
>    	the regular season champion

This is true of the ACC. It's also true of many of the Play-in
tournaments.
    
>    	If the true excitement, cutting down the nets, trophies and so on
>    	are awarded/happen based on what happens in the tournament and not
>    	in the regular season

This is a little gray. If Carolina had beaten Duke in its last regular
season game, I think you might have seen some festivities since the would
have finished with the best regular season record and the #1 tourney seed
and bye. I guess it comes down to a situation like that before people
party like they won something.
    
TTom
17.522Feinstein's opinion as [in]vaild as any otherSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Mar 14 1991 15:0517
 Re: "The National" article ...
 
 For the most part it's much ado about nothing.  But ... the Baby Blue
 faithful cain't deny the Rev's quotes.   What the Rev means is very much
 open to interpretation and Feinstein has simply given his.   Feinstein's
 opinions are no more or no less qualified than any other set of beliefs
 about Smif'.
 
 Believe it if you need it.  If you don't, just pass it on ...
 
 Personally, I don't believe Smif' is paranoid to a fault.  However, he is
 an acknowledged master of whining and pissing and moaning about the gods
 and the fates they have allegedly bestowed upon him.   We all do this to
 some extent, however, very few of us would continue to do so after 30
 years of spectacular success like the Rev has achieved.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.523Predictions consistently wrong lately - cain't stop now!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 14 1991 15:2748
17.524STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishThu Mar 14 1991 15:3020
    
    I agree, I've not formed an opinion on Dean Smith the man, regardless
    of the article because I have nothing to base my opinions on....
    
    I thought that while the article may or may not be true, that Feinstein
    inferred some heavy critiscisms about Smith as a person.  While he
    didn't come out and directly say what he was thinking, it was easy to
    see what path he wanted the reader to take....
    
    As I told ACChris in a mail message, I think Feinstein is a shock
    writer who's into these types of personal attacks on 'star'
    individuals.
    
    The question that I have is why would he go after Smith in such a way,
    which I unbiasely read as a direct attack on the man's persona.  It was
    not a very attractive article......
    
    Anyone have any guesses.......
    
    Cap
17.525Reading into my noteHOTSHT::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitThu Mar 14 1991 16:0118
    >As far at the SI
    >confirmations, this is not true(p.s I have the article....).  Not once 
    >did the SI article confirm anything negative that Feinstein wrote,
    >unless you say that he loses his temper and yells at his players(which
    >98% of all coaches do anyway).                                        
    
    What the Feinstein book on Knight left me with is a feeling of what
    it's like to be a player for or other wise associated with Knight.  I
    believe what I read, and I state again that SI articleS on Knight have
    left a similar impression of the man.  I was not referring to one
    particular article, nor did I mean to imply SI was confirming
    Feinstein's book.
    
    I find your analogy that Feinstein's article on Smith is the same as
    his book on Knight.  The depth and goals were quite different, as were
    the methods.
    
    Dan
17.526Journalism of the worst kindRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 14 1991 16:1028
    > Anyone have any guesses
    
    Here's three (3), just for starters:
    
    1. As part of the fraternity of sports media, Feinstein feels Dean
       doesn't treat them with appropriate respect.  Hence, Dean Smith,
       HoF inductee, needed to be 'put in his place'.  The believer of
       this theory would feel that the media thinks they're bigger than
       the stars and should never be embarassed by someone trying to
       manipulate them into reporting the truth.
    
    2. Feinstein went to Duke and tried his darndest to bring down a
       B10 program.  No doubt in my mind that 'The Book' cost Knight
       a recruit or 12.  Coach K is a Knight disciple.  Doesn't Feinstein
       kinda owe Coach K one at this point?  
    
    3. Money.  Nobody wants to read yet another article about what a great
       person Dean is.  Feinstein will not further his own cause by writing
       an article about what a great person Dean is.  So he goes off and
       writes a bunch of speculative rubbish that will get him notoriety,
       keep him in the limelight, and, ipso-facto, put more green backs
       into his wallet.
    
    I find all 3 theories entirely credible.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
       
17.527Surprise!: he's just a man...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Mar 14 1991 16:1317
    
    One thing that surprised me were the number of direct quotes from Dean
    in the article.  In most of these quotes, it's hard to see how Dean was
    taken out of context and intentionally distorted to make him look
    unflattering.  On the other hand, there wasn't anything all too
    shocking there either.  The quotes and the actions pretty much fit in
    with my impressions of the man, none of which serve to indict Smith or 
    in any way prove him to be without character, but do reveal him to be 
    far from humble and perfect.  I'd say in the entire scheme of things
    Smith resides where most of us have always said he does: he's a 
    basketball coach, no more, no less. 
    
    On the whole, and consistent with Bob Hunt's newfound existentialism, 
    I guess I'd have to agree:  So what?
    
    glenn
    
17.528What's the object of playing in the conference?HOTSHT::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitThu Mar 14 1991 16:1419
    >I specifically
    >mentioned the divisional (or conference) flag, which you omitted from 
    >your extraction and are now pretending that I neglected.  
    
    Not quite.  I don't accept the analogy, given the consequences of the
    division title relative to the reason for the conference tournement. 
    You've forcibly equated them.
    
    >Would you or
    >would you not feel cheated if baseball declared divisional (or even
    >league) champions via an open tournament, regardless of eventual
    >representation in the World Series playoff?  I would.
    
    If baseball did that, I'd be upset.  If an amatuer, collegiate athletic
    conference wants to do that, giving me another weekend of exciting
    action which otherwise doesn't exist, I'm happy.  Two different
    situations; two different reactions.
    
    Dan
17.529Problee stayed in the bafroom too long as a kid too ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 14 1991 16:441
    Dean Smith Proven Human - Film @ 11!!!
17.530Reward quality; not superfluous excess...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Mar 14 1991 16:4935
                                  
    > If baseball did that, I'd be upset.  If an amatuer, collegiate athletic
    > conference wants to do that, giving me another weekend of exciting
    > action which otherwise doesn't exist, I'm happy.  Two different
    > situations; two different reactions.
    
    I don't read you: far as I can tell, if the ACC holds the tournament
    for bucks, babes, and FAN-tastic-style basketball action, they can do 
    it without declaring a conference champion.  It doesn't appear that 
    the ACC is hurting any now that its tournament doesn't mean as much as 
    it used to.  Would it be any different if they went all the way, 
    removed the pretense, and just made the thing just one big pre-NCAA 
    blowout?
    
    I don't see the connection between professionalism and amateurism once
    the players take the field, either.  If anything, the amateur ranks
    should be making an effort to cut back on redundant competition that 
    only comes at the expense of the student.  But a championship is a
    championship; I don't think it means anything less to these kids 
    because they're not professionals.
    
    I also don't recall *anyone* saying that conference titles mean
    nothing, only that they mean little in comparing teams/coaches from
    *different conferences*.  How can Bob Knight and Dean Smith be directly
    compared based on conference titles won, when neither has ever coached 
    in the same conference?
    
    I'll also be consistent and state that the ACC post-season tournament
    serves to rob a team like Carolina of the recognition for consistent 
    excellence they've earned within the conference.  Yes, I do think it
    means something to the players and coaches who worked hard all year to
    maintain the best record.
    
    glenn
    
17.531Look, Pepper, it says right here, Dean eats WheatiesSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Mar 14 1991 16:5446
17.532HOTSHT::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitThu Mar 14 1991 17:0215
    Re: theories on Feinstein...
    
    He really came across as a stuffed shirt when I saw him on TV and he's
    been fairly invisible writing for the National, usually writing easily
    forgotten articles.  On the eve of the NCAAs the National must have
    their college hoops writer author some provocative articles, and I
    think that's what's happening.  One day tear down Dean, the next day
    make it up to him by calling him one of the 8 best game coaches (sort
    of a different opinion than what I read in Sports notes, eh?) but then
    identify the 8 worst coaches in basketball.
    
    You wanna bet that he'll try to keep grabbing headlines for the next
    few weeks, regardless of the progress of the tourney?
    
    Dan
17.533Journalism 101 in the USA: If it sells, it's good.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 14 1991 17:0615
    > Aside:
    
    No big surprise Ketch.  Just look at what the Syracuse paper did to
    Baywhine's (tm) program.  Tell me they wouldn't regret things *big
    time* if he leaves, SU gets probation, and they go through what the
    Kaintuck's did.
    
    The thing is this.  The media is like an alcoholic.  Once they start
    they just don't know when to quit.  They're no doubt trained at an
    early age to print what sells, and when it's sellin' like hot cakes
    it's only time to *pour it on*.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.534Paranoid? Me?NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Mar 14 1991 17:107
    
    I just want to know what happens to ACChris when they commit ol' Dean
    to the insane asylum for baiting his pet parakeet over a bogus charging
    foul... ;-)
    
    glenn
    
17.535Who's hurting?HOTSHT::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitThu Mar 14 1991 17:3714
    >Would it be any different if they went all the way, 
    >removed the pretense, and just made the thing just one big pre-NCAA 
    >blowout?     
    
    Probably not.  But even without removing the "pretense" of deciding the
    conference champ, the rendered "exhibition" regular season hasn't lost
    a thing in regards to how the individual games are played or perceived
    from my viewpoint.  Which is why I stress the difference between
    college hoops and major league baseball or professional sports.  If the
    players aren't into the game and regard it lightly (because it's
    perceived as an exhibition, which is what's being bandied about), then
    there's room for complaint.  Is that the case?
    
    Dan
17.536HBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughFri Mar 15 1991 11:3230
State and Duke won big and Virginia got whooped by a big guy.


NC State 114, Southern Mississippi 85.

Chris Corchianni had 25 pts and 11 assists, Rodney Monroe had 25 pts, and 
Migjen Bakalli came off the bench to go 6 for 6 from 3 pt land, tying an 
NCAA record. Speaking of NCAA records, Corchianni now stands at 1032 with 
at least another game to play - against #3 seed Oklahoma St who blasted 
New Mexico behing Byron Houston's 21 pts and 17 boards. Mr. Keith
Jennings of E Tenn St is finished. They lost to in a good game against
Iowa. So Chris will get to keep this record for a while.

Duke 102-73, NE Louisiana 73.

Duke simply outmanned NE La. Laettner had a ho-hum 22 pts while a couple 
of lesser famed Dukeronis shined: Thomas Hill had 18 pts on 8-14, and 
Brian Davis had 15 pts and 9 rbs. For those that don't follow Duke too 
closely and only know about Hurley, Laettner, Coach K, and their whining, 
might want to catch a glimpse of Davis and Thomas Hill. Duke shot 60% for 
the game. They play Iowa next.

BYU 61, Virginia 48.

Shawn Bradley dominated this game. Pure and simple. 10 block shots. 
Stopped everything in the middle. 

ACC stands at 2-1.

TTom
17.537My Champs (regrettablyWMOIS::REEVE_CFri Mar 15 1991 12:278
    Final League Records (all games)
    --------------------------------
    UNC  =  12-4
    Duke =  11-4
    
    UNC beats Duke by 22 in final game season. ACC Champion = UNC.
    
    Chris
17.538oopsWMOIS::REEVE_CFri Mar 15 1991 12:364
    Ammended
    
    UNC  = 13-4
    Duke = 12-4
17.539Exit Stage Left, WahoosSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsFri Mar 15 1991 12:5347
17.540SACT41::ROSSKnorr's Knobby Knees Known NowFri Mar 15 1991 13:0412
Re: Bob Hunt

I'm glad I'm not a UVa alum... both the football and basketball teams were
terrible disappointments after strong starts.


To ACC Chris:

	Who would you rather have now on the Tar Heels - Bradley or
	Montross?    Isn't it obvious that playing time is the big 
	factor in the development of players?

17.541When's it *our* turn ???SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsFri Mar 15 1991 13:1011
17.542Bradley a force, but UVa a major disapointmentRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Mar 15 1991 13:2824
    > Who would you rather have on the Tar Heels - Bradley or Montross?
    
    Interestingly enough we were right in there pitching for the services
    of Mr. Bradley, along with the Dukies.  We were in the final 4, along
    with Utah and Duke, even though everybody knew it was an uphill battle
    cause the kid's a Mormon.
    
    Bradley and Montross were ranked #1 and #2 among big men, respectively.  
    As to who I'd rather have, well, I wouldn't have complained about
    getting either of 'em a year ago, so I'm quite happy.  Ultimately Eric
    will develop much more playing for Dean, even though he's not getting
    the minutes this year.  I say this based on Dean's track record and
    also Carolina's style of play, which will force Eric to get out and
    play defense against quicker kids, put the ball on the floor more,
    catch and pass the ball several times each time down the floor, and
    learn to hit the jumper on the secondary break.
    
    Bradley will make a college career out of playing zone and swatting 
    shots and getting the ball in the low post.  In sum, BYU will build its
    team around him, while at Carolina Montross will plug in as a major
    cog in Dean's system.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.543Montross would be my pickSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsFri Mar 15 1991 13:3616
 I'd rather have Montross than Bradley, too, if truth be known.   I don't
 think Smif' handles Montross correctly but he did play well during the
 minutes he was given in the tournament.   He got a couple of crucial
 baords and he got of couple of tough garbage buckets.   He may not excel
 but he'll be a factor.
 
 Montross has quite a bit more muscle than Bradley and he's got a better
 offensive game.  Bradley is maybe just a little more than a white Manute
 Bol.   Bol has no offensive game whatsoever but Bradley does have a
 baby turnaround jumper.
 
 All comparisons are moot, however, if Bradley comes back from his two-year
 Mormon mission with a lot more muscle and a lot more toughness.   Plus a
 few less freckles ...
 
 Bob Hunt
17.544NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Mar 15 1991 13:3710
    
    Bradley has announced his intention to go on his two-year mission
    starting this summer.  With that body, he'll be lucky to come back
    alive.  By default, Dean's probably happy with what he's got.
    
    Any complaints from Dean this morning on his relegation to the East
    Regional, with its number two seed already gone?
    
    glenn
      
17.545Pack almost at homeHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughFri Mar 15 1991 14:429
Getting to play in College Park is very favorable to State. Considering
the crown that Rodney Monroe is drawing. He's from Maryland and from the
looks and sounds of the crowd, it's almost a home game. It's also
Maryland's home court.

I wonder if Beyheim is going to be in the crowd tonight to watch the Tar
Heels in their mismatch against Northeastern.

TTom
17.546Nice break for StateSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsFri Mar 15 1991 14:4811
17.547almost homeHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughFri Mar 15 1991 15:157
State didn't quite have the advantage that BYU had, but it's definitely
not just a neutral court. Hopefully, State won't have a letdown, like
against Duke in the ACCs, and the NC State-Oklahoma St will be a good
matchup of the perimeter game of the Pack against Byron Houston and the
very good D of the Cowboys.

TTom
17.548Tarheels: the All_Ugly TeamSHALOT::MEDVIDwild but not lostFri Mar 15 1991 15:3411
    I'm watching the local sports last night with The Linda and they had
    this reporter up in Syracuse logging a report as the Tarheels boarded
    the bus.  As each and every one of them went by, she would say
    something lik, "Yuck" or "Ew" "Gross."  She was referring, of course,
    to their physical appearance.  
    
    The entire team went by and I started to notice the same thing.  Is
    this, perhaps, the ugliest team ever assembled in NCAA history.  I
    think she was ready to barf when Rick Fox walked by.
    	
    	--dan'l
17.549That's what they mean by "winning ugly" Dan'l...AXIS::ROBICHAUDDrivingTheSkinBusThroughTunaTownFri Mar 15 1991 15:371
    
17.550In a league all by himselfSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsFri Mar 15 1991 15:416
    Nah ...
    
    Put Patrick Ewing at center and add four of those Chippendales guys and
    you'd *still* have the All-Ugly Team.
    
    Bob Hunt
17.551lookerHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughFri Mar 15 1991 16:025
re: .550

And that's from a guy who went to the same school as Ralph Sampson.

TTom
17.552Sampson cute before he lost his razorSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsFri Mar 15 1991 16:1411
 Slight correction, TTom ...
    
 Ralph Sampson is the guy who went to the same school as *me*.
    
 Actually, Ralph had kind of a baby face there for a few years.  Then he
 grew a Russell-esque goatee and it was all downhill from that point on.
    
 Ewing has been proof of Darwin's theory since the day he was born. 
 (Footnote: Medvid, Dan'l)
 
 Bob Hunt
17.553Duke & Carolina advance.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 18 1991 13:5519
    Congrats to Dean Smith and North Carolina basketball for reaching the
    Sweet 16 for the ELEVENTH (11) straight year.  Not bad for a guy who
    supposedly chokes in the NCAA Tournament.  
    
    George Lynch took former prep teammate Aaron Bain to school, then ate
    him for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.  Terrific game by George - his
    best ever as a Tar Heel.  Bain was overmatched, despite being just as
    highly recruited as Lynch was out of high school.
    
    Duke's the only other ACC team to advance to the Sweet 16.  This can't
    really be considered a surprise.  Duke & UNC were the only ACC schools
    in the Top 20 at year-end.  State and Tech are prime examples of the
    'Live by the Jump Shot; Die by the Jump Shot' rule of thumb.  Very 
    difficult to put together a long winning streak when you depend so 
    heavily on the outside shot.  (Last years Tech team was an exception to 
    this normally reliable rule...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.554A good omen?PENSAR::LAZARUSDavid Lazarus @KYO,323-4353Mon Mar 18 1991 14:066
    The last time UNC beat Villanova in a regional final was 81-82. May be a
    good omen. My question is why wasn't rollie able to play at a slower
    tempo,especially with an early lead?
    
    Chris,do you think the Tarheels will have a lot of fans in New Jersey
    next weekend? 
17.555Not one of Rollie's better efforts ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 18 1991 14:4713
    Yes, I was surprised 'Nova let us score 84 points.  Clearly for them to
    win the game needed to be in the 60's.  Keep in mind that they're young
    and may have gotten caught up with the fast pace despite Rollie's
    pleading.
    
    I'd guess we'll have a good number of fans at the Meadowlands.  NY is
    typically pro-Carolina, given our long history of recruiting in the
    area.  Dean says that he'll play a game in the NY/NJ *every* year from
    now on, strictly for recruiting purposes.  I'd expect E. Michigan to be
    the sentimental favorite for neutral observers.  Same for Temple.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.556no room to boast!!!!!!!CHIEFF::CHILDSbut Lefty's got lettersMon Mar 18 1991 14:4811
11 straight years with the best talent money can buy and he hasn't been
to final four in 9 YEARS!!! Now that's pitful!!!!

You're as bas the announcers who waxed over and over again about the
11 straight never mind THAT FOR 9 STAIGHT YEARS HE HASN"T GOTTEN ANY
FARTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!

Despite great seeds, great talent, refs help etc...

mike 
17.557CAM::WAYDaylight come and me wan' go homeMon Mar 18 1991 14:5812
>               <<< Note 17.555 by RHETT::KNORR "Carolina Blue" >>>
>
>    Yes, I was surprised 'Nova let us score 84 points. 
                                    ^^


Was that you I say playing point guard, Chris?   How many did you
score?


8^) 8^) 8^) 8^)
'Saw
17.558SHALOT::MEDVIDwild but not lostMon Mar 18 1991 16:186
    No, with Knorr's legs, they wouldn't let him wear shorts in public. 
    Just ask about 600 ACC fans at the Paper Doll 3/9/91.
    
    8-)
    
    	--dan'l
17.559RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOLet's go Seton Hall, SJU, UCONN!Mon Mar 18 1991 17:1416
    Well, ACC Chris, of all the teams I saw this weekend, the Starheels
    (tm) are the deepest, best team around.  UNLV may have a better
    starting 5 - buy no one has a bench like UNC.  And yet to Dean, their
    underdogs...
    
    11 straight years in the sweet 16 - and the only champeenship is from a
    gift mistake by a freshman.  Not a very good record.  With the talent
    Dean gets, he should be guarenteed a sweet 16 berth every year - the
    real coaching comes in him being able to get that talent into the final
    four.  And he doesn't do that consistently.  He's been handed a Final
    Four berth in the East, with early upsets making the road simple for
    him. Beat Eastern Michigan, then either Oklahoma Stat or Temple.  The
    Tarhells have the easiest road to the Final Four.  Let's see if Dean
    coaches with his hands around his neck this year.
    
    JD
17.560**ALERT** SECURITY VIOLATION!!! **ALERT**RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 18 1991 17:5915
    
    re: .558
    
The thing I cain't figure out is who the heck the dan'l medvid is that
keeps puttin' notes in, cause it sure ain't the dan'l medvid *I* met
at The Paper Doll a couple of weekends ago.  

No siree, the dan'l in this notes file clearly would *NOT* give scantily
clad women horsee back rides in front of hundreds of ACC Fans.

No way.  Uh-uh.  


- ACC Chris
    
17.561Easy ride? A #3 seed is still looming on the horizon ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 18 1991 18:0418
    Good timing, changing that 'Northeastern will pound the Tarhells'
    p-name JD, seeing's how we obliterated them by 30+!  Heh heh!!11
    
    You know what's funny though is that you comment how Carolina is the
    deepest, best team around, giving Dean 0% of the credit for this.  If
    you saw us at the beginning of the year you wouldn't have been so
    generous.  This team, which is composed of 11 freshmen and sophomores,
    had no chemistry whatsoever.  Dean's managed to mold them into a fine
    playing unit, one that plays excellent team defense, and one that is
    playings its best basketball of the season at the end of the season.
    
    Thankfully we've finally gotten a break from the selection committee
    and haven't had one of our starters go down with an injury (yet).  Both
    of these items are non-trivial when evaluating why we've been out of
    the Final 4 for so long ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.562Fox?RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHotlanta is getting warmer!Mon Mar 18 1991 18:317
    Help...
    
    	How many points did Fox have in each of the first two games?
    
    Thx...
    
    B.A.
17.563A song about ACC ChrisCAM::WAYDaylight come and me wan' go homeMon Mar 18 1991 18:3222
>    You know what's funny though is that you comment how Carolina is the
>    deepest, best team around, giving Dean 0% of the credit for this.  If
>    you saw us at the beginning of the year you wouldn't have been so
>    generous.  This team, which is composed of 11 freshmen and sophomores,
>    had no chemistry whatsoever.  Dean's managed to mold them into a fine
>    playing unit, one that plays excellent team defense, and one that is
>    playings its best basketball of the season at the end of the season.
    
re ACC Chris:

	He's a Deano Doodle Dandy, a real live Deano Doodle Boy.
	A real live nephew of his Uncle Dean, born where the Dome meets
		the sky
	He's got a Deano Doodle Sweetheart, a real live Deano Doodle gal
	Deano Doodle went to Chapel Hill just to see the DeanDome, Chris
		is a Deano Doodle Boy....



(sung to the tune of Cohan's Yankee Doodle Boy)

'Saw
17.564With a twist ...SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsMon Mar 18 1991 18:409
17.565QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Mon Mar 18 1991 18:4413
Seemed like an awful lot of Seniors playing, though.

Rice, Chilcutt, etc.

Also. Having Freshmen isn't that big of a detriment when they are
considered one of the top recruiting classes. I think we all have to
face up to the fact that Dean either bought or blew his way to the
easiest schedule to the Final Four that was statistically possible.
Let's just pray he has the sense, now, to keep all foreign objects away
from his mouth.... or we could be witness to the `Mother of All Chokes,'
as performed by `Deano and the Dirty Feet'.

Mike JN
17.566Finis for 90-91 for GTWMOIS::REEVE_CMon Mar 18 1991 18:4730
    I have to admit that Deano has done a very good job bringing this
    year's Tarheels together. They improved more by far than any other ACC
    team this year, and peaked at the right time. He's done a good job
    blending the talent and developing the young guys at a resonable pace.
    
    Sayonara to my Yellow Jackets for another year. They made a pretty
    decent run at Ohio State, but couldn't get over the hump. Not too bad
    for the ACC's #5 team against the Big 10's #1 though. I'm gonna miss
    Kenny Anderson next year. Despite the acrimony aimed at him in these
    notes of late, Kenny is a real class act and the ACC will miss him next
    year. He IS better than Corciani, just surrounded by two average ACC
    players (Mackey and Barry), a mediocre, one dimensional center
    (Geiger), and a bunch of stiffs and inexperienced players all of whom
    were incapable of catching or anticipating his passes. Even with
    constant double and triple teams, he was second in the league in
    scoring, the leading rebounding guard in the league, and in the top
    five in several other categories. The "man-to-man" defenses in the NBA
    and the fact that he will be surrounded by players with at least some
    talent will probably make him a better pro than college player.
    
    What a difference Dennis Scott would have made this year if he hadn't
    gone hardship! What a difference Anderson would make next year with
    Best and Forrest coming in and another year of experience for the
    entire team. The only seniors this year are insignificant to the team.
    Maybe Kenny will feel that he has unfinished business and come back.
    Not very likely though, he really is a hardship case financially.
    
    Here's hoping for UNC vs. Duke for all the marbles in April.
    
    Chris 
17.567SPORTS_91 noters to media: "Baaa. BAAAAAAA!!"RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 18 1991 18:5016
    As the title to my previous note implies, I don't buy the propaganda
    line being waged by the media (which SPORTS_91 noters are lining up
    behind, I'm sorry to say ...) that says Carolina has a cakewalk to the
    Final 4.  
    
    E. Michigan blew out the SEC champs by 20, so I'm certainly not
    expecting a blowout.  I'll grant you that we should be a slight
    favorite to win.  Assuming victory (an assumption I sincerely hope
    we *don't* do) it'll be on to play #3 seed OSU.  Most would agree
    the difference between a #2 and #3 seed is not that great.
    
    Bottom line is the *only* game where UNC will benefit from all the
    upsets is against E. Michigan, assuming OSU beats off Temple.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.568If Kenny makes 2 it mighta gotten *very* interestingRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 18 1991 18:5514
    I thought Bobby Cremins made a very bad coaching move in the Tech - OSU
    game.  Anderson's having a horrible game shooting and he's on the line
    for 2 free throws which could narrow the gap to 1 point.  He makes the
    first (boings around the rim a half-dozen times or so) and then, ...
    
    Cremins calls TIME OUT!!  As soon as he did I said "Bobby, that's what
    you're supposed to do when you want the guy to *miss*!"  Which he did.
    
    For the life of me I can't figure out the need for the TO.  Everybody
    in the universe knew the ONLY sensible game plan at that point was to
    foul ASAP if you couldn't force a turnover on the inbounds.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.569'least I was a man about it! ;-)SHALOT::MEDVIDwild but not lostMon Mar 18 1991 18:5619
>No siree, the dan'l in this notes file clearly would *NOT* give scantily
>clad women horsee back rides in front of hundreds of ACC Fans.
    
    Hey Chris, I readily gave old Candice that horsey back ride across the
    stage.  No problem, especially when she leaned down low like a jockey
    and pressed her breasticles in my back.
    
    You, on the other hand, went to the classic UNC four corner delay to
    keep Pepper from your loins.  And you lost anyway.  When you say Dean
    is your idol, you mean it, emulating him in all facets of life
    including womens. 8-)
    
    And did you see me work that pole?  I was better than Orlando Magic
    Johnson!  The Tarheel fans were cheering because they only get that
    kind of action from their sisters.  
    
    I even found a dollar bill in my underwear when I got home!
    
    	--dan'l
17.570RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOLet's go Seton Hall, SJU, UCONN!Mon Mar 18 1991 18:589
    Chris,
    
    I must admit that I find your "Media is to BLAM" crusade extremely
    funny.  I've been rollward for over a week now.   Keep it up.  it's
    F-U-N !!!!!
    
    You're even beginning to sound like the paranoid Dean Smith clone...
    
    JD
17.571"Recognize your mistakes and learn from them." -Dean SmithRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 18 1991 19:0211
    > UNC four corners delay
    
    In retrospect I shoulda gone uptempo and gotten it over with.  But at
    the time I gotta say I had no idea she was gonna institute such
    full-court aggressive pressure!
    
    I think she went to the BobKnight school of sportsmanship too, given
    her blatant lying and treachery ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.572Talk about setting yourself up for the fall...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Mar 18 1991 19:0615
    > I must admit that I find your "Media is to BLAM" crusade extremely
    > funny.  I've been rollward for over a week now.   Keep it up.  it's
    > F-U-N !!!!!
    
    It's too funny, JD.  The best part is this is the same guy who along 
    with Dean has been pissing and moaning about Duke's seeding and route 
    to the Final Four for the last five years now.  Bottom line is that 
    Duke justified their seeding by reaching the dance four out of those 
    five years.  If Carolina doesn't, it's we SPORTS noters who've been 
    taken in like lambs to the slaughter, though.  Loyal Dean followers
    have learned better...
    
    glenn
    
17.573his SAT's were Very very good too!CST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Mon Mar 18 1991 19:2920
    Chris R,
    
    	I'm behind you in wishing/hoping Kenny A stays and I don't think
    anybody here has BLAMMed(tm) Kenny for anything.  Rather, it is the
    Dick V's, the papers, et al who have made him into a demigod!
    
    I do question your thoughts behind the statement that " he really
    is a hardship..." comment.  While I have absolutely no datistical
    (tm) information about his/his family financial situation, I can
    tell you that he was paying ~$2,200.00 per year tuition at Archbishop
    Molloy.  They don't do scholarships.  At GT. he's on a full ride,
    right?
    
    My bet is he's not really a hardship but he's certainly interested in a
    $3million - $5 million multi-year contract.  
    
    Hey, I'd like that kind of $$$ too!
    
    Kev
    
17.574He wasn't all-NYC 4 years in a row for nothing ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 18 1991 19:5115
    My inside contact at Tech reports that Kenny A is going *bald* due to
    tremendous stress.  His mother is very sick and, combined with being
    very poor, is not getting the best medical care money-can-buy.  Throw
    in the pressure of carrying a Division I basketball team (in the brutal
    ACC - a conference loaded with top-quality talent at his position),
    approaching final exams, and the microscope that's been on him all year
    and it's not difficult to figure why he hasn't been playing
    particularly well.
    
    I think Kenny is far better than what he's shown and, given the right
    situation (*always* the key for a kid coming into the NBA) will be a
    great one.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.576STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishMon Mar 18 1991 20:3011
    
    ACChris,
    
    NC should only be favored slightly over E. Michigan????  That's the
    funniest line I've heard all year.  Presently the Heels are favored
    by 13 and no other game is even close to that.  If the Heels don't make
    the final four this year, it will go down as Dean's 2nd biggest failure
    (of course losing to IU in 1984 was his #1 failure but he was going up
    against a superior coach....)
    
    Cap
17.577CADSYS::CAVEMon Mar 18 1991 20:5512
I'm not sure how much of this Dean bashing is to ride ACChris and how
much is serious.  However, 11 straight years in the sweet 16 is a very
impressive accomplishment and something NC should be proud of.  Its very
difficult to avoid the occasional early slip-up, just ask Indiana, Syracuse,
etc.  Now if you want to bash Dean for underachiving and never making it
to the final four with top quality teams, that fine.   

NC really has had a cake walk so far and to the final 8.  The Okla St.
game isn't a cake walk but still should be a easy victory.  Although, this
is probaby one of the easiest paths to the final four in memory, they still
would have to win 4 the games.

17.578I hadn't realized how many tourney records he owns...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Mar 18 1991 21:0410
    I think Dean's record in making the final 16 is excellent.  But just 
    like with the graphics I saw the week before showing Dean ready to pass
    Rupp in all-time NCAA appearances, all-time NCAA tournament wins,
    all-time Final Four appearances, and on and on and on, I just had to
    ask myself: how could the guy have avoided winning a few of these
    things just by default?
    
    glenn
     
17.579KA will be better than KJWMOIS::REEVE_CTue Mar 19 1991 12:2019
    re- KA as a hardship
    
    I'm only going by what the nasty media says about it. I have read on a
    couple of occasions about his mother living in poverty and being ill
    but not being able to afford treatment, house repairs, etc. I didn't
    second guess this, but assume it must have some credence. 
    
    In any case, if I were 19 and someone waived a 5 year, $12m contract in
    my face, I would do backflips all the way to the bank.
    
    re- Cremins
    
    I'm guessing he called the TO to set up a particular play and assumed
    (rightly so) that it would not effect Kenny. He's been in a million
    pressure situations before without showing any sign of choking and I
    doubt he choked on this one, he just plain missed the FT. It was too
    late anyhow.
    
    Chris
17.580SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Tue Mar 19 1991 15:1710
    
    
    	It would be nice if Kenny stayed around because Tech will have
    Travis Best next year.  Travis is a true point which would allow
    Kenny to move to the off guard spot where the pressure is not as
    great.  Granted, if he is having money problems and wants to take 
    care of Mom, he should do it.
    
    								bill..g.
    
17.581When the revisionists have their wayVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitTue Mar 19 1991 16:4613
>I'm not sure how much of this Dean bashing is to ride ACChris and how
>much is serious.
    
    Let's put it this way...
    
    Dean gets roughly about 40 times more criticism this year for *making*
    the Sweet Sixteen than Bobby got last year for losing in the opening
    round.
    
    I think that speaks highly of the sucess of MrT and Cap in their
    endless quest to manipulate the minds of Sports fans.
    
    Dan
17.582hahhaaaCHIEFF::CHILDSDean and Chris-Life's 13 pt underdogsTue Mar 19 1991 17:457
Dan, if it looks like a choke, if acts like a choke, then it must be
a choke....

cmon now T and Cap having nothing to do with this. Bobby turns milk to
butter, Dean milk to sour cream...A shame too as Dean always has extra
gallons of milk to work with.....
17.583QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Tue Mar 19 1991 18:0715
Who ever heard of a Soup can bleeding a thick Baby Blue liquid?!

Nobody!

So I fess up. I like to take potshots at Dean just to see ACChris a.k.a.
Chris Knorr a.k.a. The Soupster rush to his defense. Only Soup would
drag his own flesh and blood into the Dean dome and force the screaming
child to kiss the ogre's ring. Only ACChris would hold Satanic rituals,
by the light of the moon, featuring farm animals, basketballs, candles,
nudity, 2 dozen twinkies, and a tape of Little Richard's Greatest Hits.

But as much as I like to kid him... I DO admire loyalty... and Dean is
one of the Great Ones.

Mike JN
17.584I understood, but apparently others didn't. :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Mar 19 1991 18:2318
    For all you bonehaids who couldn't figure out what Dean was talking
    about regarding why he couldn't bring himself to play zone against the
    Nerds @ Chapel Hill, here's an extract from this weeks Carolina Blue:
    
    Blue:	I think you were misunderstood a little bit after the
    		Duke-Carolina game in Chapel Hill March 3 when you said
    		you should have played some zone, weren't you?
    
    Smith:	That could be.  I was saying that was the easy solution.
    		Let's say we have five guys eight-feet tall, and the
    		opponent has great athletes.  We could stand there in a
    		zone and create problems.  That is one way, but I prefer
    		another way.  We could improve our man-to-man defense."
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.585"Why I Don't Like the Heels" in 100 words or lessSHALOT::MEDVIDwild but not lostTue Mar 19 1991 18:3238
    Want to hear my story?
    
    I used to like UNC...a lot.  Thought Dean Smith was a great coach back
    in my naive days of what made a coach great:
    
    	- wins a lot
    	- was controlled on the sidelines
    	
    In '86 I was on an interview in the Research Triangle.  I was
    interviewing all over the country at this time and made a hobby of
    collecting Izod-type shirts from various colleges.  Of the three
    universities in the RTP area, I went to Chapel Hill and bought myself a
    baby blue Tarheels shirt.
    
    I was also a Duke and GT fan somewhat, but I liked the Tarheels more
    BECAUSE OF DEAN SMITH!!!
    
    Then I moved to Charlotte.  This was in 1 BH (Before Hornets) so
    college ball was all there was here.  And everywhere you looked UNC and
    Tarheel fans abounded.  And I felt at home since I was a closet heel...
    even owned that shirt I bought at UNC.
    
    Then I started to realize what rednecked, uncultured slobs in general
    these UNC fans were.  And I got sick of all this consistent "Dean can
    do no wrong" propoganda they preached.  And I actually started to study
    Dean's record.  Wasn't much of a basketball historian.  My basketball
    interests and general knowledge only dated back to the late 70's early
    80's.  
    
    "You mean that this man that they named this dome after has had all
    those great players, including perhaps the greatest of all time, and
    has only one championship to speak of?"  No bull!  I remember the
    moment I realized it.  
    
    Haven't worn that shirt since...no wait, I wore it when I painted my
    condo last year.
    
    	--dan'l
17.586Heels' fans just soak it up like spongesSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsTue Mar 19 1991 18:3524
17.587Slight CorrectionSHALOT::MEDVIDwild but not lostTue Mar 19 1991 18:438
> And so to paraphrase, it's better to lose the game and maybe improve some
> aspect of your team's performance, in this case, the Heels' man-to-man
> defense, than it is to do the correct thing, a zone, and go ahead and win
> the game.   
      ^^^^
    
    Make that "conference championship."
    
17.588SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsTue Mar 19 1991 18:463
 Thanks, Dan'l, nice assist.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.589200?RAVEN1::B_ADAMSThe lady is 2 tough 2 tame!Tue Mar 19 1991 19:016
17.590Consider *me* the typical fan dan'l, and jump on the bandwagon!RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportTue Mar 19 1991 19:0221
    re: .585
    
    That note was *way* more than a hundred words dan'l.  Next time I'll
    know to trust you about as much as, ... awe never mind.
    
    I certainly have no control over the feelings you've developed toward 
    UNC dan'l, and I can relate to your being turned off by obnoxious fans. 
    (Heck, I learned to hate the Celtics just because of their incredibly
    obnoxious *announcers*.)  UNC has some crummy fans (ignorant rednecks)
    but they're *good* compared to the fat-cat alums who sit back and
    expert victory, getting POed if somebody sitting near them stands to
    cheer or yells too loud.  (This is a FACT.)
    
    Dean has had an unparalleled 30-year run at Carolina.  I'll spare you
    the accolades, records, graduation rates, player development, etc. 
    and assume you're knowledgeable in regards to the mans accomplishments.  
    Ultimately it sounds like the fact that he's only won 1 Title so far 
    renders all the rest insignificant - a fact which I'd hotly contest.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.591Ketch draws blood (But I've admitted this before ...)RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportTue Mar 19 1991 19:0713
    re: .586
    
    I'll allow that as a valid criticism of Dean.  Ultimately he places a
    higher value on developing his players over the long haul than winning
    a single game.  This typically benefits Carolina in the long run but
    may account for the occasional unexpected loss.
    
    The fact that he does this even more when playing at home is, IMO, a
    reflection of the fact that there's a greater margin of error for
    winning the game when you're at home.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.592Where are the results to prove it out?NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Mar 19 1991 19:4010
    I'd buy this Dean-as-mystic-teaching-the-young-grasshoppers-the-patient-
    lessons-of-life bull more if Dean didn't have the great regular season
    record and the lousy late-round NCAA record.  Isn't this the opposite
    of what you're saying, Chris?  Don't you expect results from this
    philosophy, or are you just content to soak in all the unquestioned 
    praises and go home early every year?
    
    glenn
     
17.593Last time we went home early was 1980.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportTue Mar 19 1991 19:519
    > go home early every year
    
    Maybe you missed it Glenn - Dean's been to ELEVEN (11) straight Sweet
    16's.  I don't call that going home early, nor do I consider this
    accomplishment trivial.  (Last year, for instance, we had to beat the
    #1 ranked Oklahoma Sooners to reach the round of 16.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.594The argument of the lemmingsVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitTue Mar 19 1991 19:568
    >if Dean didn't have the great regular season
    >record and the lousy late-round NCAA record.
    
    There's only one complaint against Smith's record, and no matter what
    the argument involves, you can always count on it getting far more play 
    than it deserves.
    
    Dan
17.595C'mon, come clean...NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Mar 19 1991 19:578
    
    When the going gets tough, then, Chris (last year notwithstanding).
    Don't evade the issue.  Please explain the seeming contradiction in
    your description of sacrificing wins early for the end goal when the
    realization of that end goal has occurred once in thirty years.
    
    glenn
    
17.596While the Red Sox (deservedly) are just plain "chokers"... NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Mar 19 1991 20:0411
    
    > There's only one complaint against Smith's record, and no matter what
    > the argument involves, you can always count on it getting far more play 
    > than it deserves.
    
    I'd agree, but then again I'm not the one claiming that there's some
    kind of purpose to Dean's coaching anomalies that can only be revealed 
    through the wisdom that he and appreciative Carolina fans possess...
    
    glenn
      
17.597Contrary to popular myth, we never cornered the talent marketRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Mar 19 1991 20:0414
    The assumption you seem to be going on (hate to single you out glenn,
    cause clearly you're not alone) is that Carolina is favored to win it
    all each-and-every year, kinda like this years Vegas squad.
    
    In truth the only UNC team that could be singled out for what you might
    consider 'gross underachieving' was the '83-'84 team, which was ranked
    #1 in the country for most of the season before being eliminated by
    Indiana.  Objectively this label cannot be made to stick however, since
    our point guard was playing with a cast on his wrist, which some might
    consider to be a disadvantage.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.598Upset after upset after upset ...SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsTue Mar 19 1991 21:4240
 Some history would help here ...
 
    1981  Lost to Indiana in Final Two.  	Indiana took title.
    1982  Won title on Fred Brown gaffe.
    1983  Lost to Georgia in Region Finals.	Dawgs lost Final Four.
    1984  Lost to Indiana in Region Semis.	Indiana lost Region Finals.
    1985  Lost to Villanova in Region Finals.	Villanova took title.
    1986  Lost to Louisville in Region.		Louisville took title.
    1987  Lost to Syracuse in Region Finals.	'Cuse lost Final Two.
    1988  Lost to Arizona in Region Finals.	'Zona lost Final Four.
    1989  Lost to Michigan in Region Semis.	Wolverines took title.
    1990  Lost to Arkansas in Region Semis.	Hogs lost Final Four.
    
 I'm not sure about the loss to Louisville in 1986.  It might have been to
 someone else.  Bottom line, if 1986 is correct, is that Smith has lost to
 just 4 eventual title winners.   On paper, that's okay *BUT* you have to
 remember something here ...  How many times UNC has been upset.
 
 In 1981, Indiana won the title with a record for most losses by a titlist. 
 In 1983, NC State broke that record by beating Phi Slamma Jamma.  NC State
 also beat Georgia on the way.  And in 1985, Villanova broke State's record
 for most losses by a champ.
 
 Carolina lost, either directly or indirectly, to each of these underdogs.  
 With the exception of maybe Louisville 86, 'Zona 88, and the Hogs 90,
 Carolina lost to the underdog each year.
 
 Conclusion ???  The Carolina press loves this 11 straight trips to the
 Sweet 16 thang but the faithful keep forgetting just how many times
 they've lost to the underdog once they've made it there.   Georgia,
 Indiana twice, Villanova, Syracuse, Michigan, ...   Sure they were hot
 underdogs.  In some cases, like Indiana 81, 'Nova 85 and Michigan 89, they
 were sizzling. 
 
 But Smif' and Carolina still lost to them and the faithful's faith gets
 stronger every year.
 
 And *THAT'S* a fact.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.599So who will he take to the NBA champs?CSTEAM::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Tue Mar 19 1991 23:4911
    sorry to pull this *rare* discussion up from the rathole.
    
    Thanks guys for the info about KA's family situation.  I had no
    idea that he had such problems.
    
    Like bill..g (goose) said " go for it "
    
    (but, I'm sorry as a college BBall fan to see ya go)
    
    Kev
    
17.600Thanks again, Dan'lSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsWed Mar 20 1991 03:4935
17.601All-Time Assist Record!SHALOT::MEDVIDwild but not lostWed Mar 20 1991 11:2624
    Bob!  What a visual!
    
    There I am dribbling through my legs, behind my back, giving King Rice
    so many fits he runs to the nearest cheerleader and begins choking her. 
    Now with the clear view, I see you breaking toward the basket, right
    around the "future-NBAer" Shitclutz.  I put up the oop in such a
    perfect manner that you, power forward elite, grab the ball one handed
    in the middle of your 360 and begin to tomahawk it.
    
    But the time you spend floating and tomahawking has given ACChris
    time to make his way out from behind Deano (both pulling their Jockeys back
    up) onto the court and into the lane for an attempted block.
    
    But no, he needed more work on his man-to-man and instead commits the
    foul as you deliver this supreme Hunterooski DunkerHOOSki!  The rim is
    scortched and glass clinkles down on Knorr's prone body.  You get a
    technical because you hang on to the rim...no, wait, the other ref is
    overruling...you and I get called for taunting because it's illegal to
    laugh at any blind-faithed Dean supporter in Chapel Hill.
    
    King Rice is sent to the line to shoot the technicals.  He misses.  In
    anger, he walks over and puts his fist through a wall.
    
    	--dan'l
17.602Objective Analysis of UNC NCAA PerformanceRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 20 1991 13:0097
>    1981  Lost to Indiana in Final Two.  	Indiana took title.

Wouldn't exactly call reaching the finals underachievement, specially
for a team starting a freshman at center.  Prior to the season this
was a club given virtually NO chance to win a Title, yet they came 
darn close.  

>    1982  Won title on Fred Brown gaffe.

Ah yes, we won cause of Fred Brown's gaffe.  Of course we did.  During
the course of a game there are, maybe, a couple hundred possessions, 
numerous field goal attempts, free throw attempts, turnovers, rebounds
and putbacks, etc, etc.  And yet we won solely because of Fred Brown
throwing the ball away.  

Thanks for the objectivity, Ketch!   :^(


>    1983  Lost to Georgia in Region Finals.	Dawgs lost Final Four.

Despite the loss of James Worthy this team should've beaten the Dawgs.
A disapointing loss ...


>    1984  Lost to Indiana in Region Semis.	Indiana lost Region Finals.

Kenny Smith gets taken down via a cheap shot from LSU and this team was
never the same.  Perhaps our all-time best team - they went undefeated
in the ACC.


>    1985  Lost to Villanova in Region Finals.	Villanova took title.

Carolina runs into a 'Nova team that simply could not lose.


>    1986  Lost to Louisville in Region.	Louisville took title.

Carolina runs into a red-hot Louisville squad that also goes on to win
a Title.


>    1987  Lost to Syracuse in Region Finals.	'Cuse lost Final Two.

Jeff Lebo plays with a 103 degree fever and shoots something like 2-15
to take us out of the game.  Disapointing loss, but with any kind of 
normal game from Lebo we're in the Final 4.  This team also went 
undefeated during ACC play.


>    1988  Lost to Arizona in Region Finals.	'Zona lost Final Four.

Carolina overmatched against Arizona in the West regionals.  A win here
would've been a very big upset.


>    1989  Lost to Michigan in Region Semis.	Wolverines took title.

Ah yes, the good ole selection committee, which decided to give Duke
the East seed based on their winning the ACC Championship the previous
year, gives them the East seed *again* based on their winning the ACC
regular season.  (We won the regular season in '88 and got sent West;
we won the ACC Tourney this year and got to play UCLA in round 2 and
Michigan - for the 3rd year in a row - in round 3.  Michigan was
absolutely unconscious and went on to win a Title.


>    1990  Lost to Arkansas in Region Semis.	Hogs lost Final Four.

After an unbelievable win against Oklahoma in Dallas, starter Kevin
Madden tears his knee up in practice and we get blown out in the last
10 minutes in an arena heavily biased toward the Hogs.


Add it all up and you come up with the following:

Total Appearances:				10

Of these we won 1 Title and reached the finals a 2nd time.  That reduces
your potential number of "chokes" to 8.

Three (3) of these losses were the result of playing against teams that
were absolutely red-hot and went on to win Titles.  That reduces your
potential number of "chokes" to 5.

Of these, three (3) were the direct result of injury-related problems,
although I'll grant you that even with Kevin Madden I doubt we could've
beaten Arkansas.

Hence you're left with a loss to Arizona (a game played in the West in
which we were a heavy underdog) and the '83 loss to Georgia.

In the words of The Grinch, those are crumbs too small for even a mouse.


- ACC Chris
    
17.603True objectivitySHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsWed Mar 20 1991 13:2649
 Naturally, that's how a Carolina fan would see it.  Let's do this thing
 really objectively now, okay ???
 
1981  Lost to Indiana in Final Two.  	Indiana took title.

 	Carolina was the higher seed and lost.
 
1982  Won title on Fred Brown gaffe.

1983  Lost to Georgia in Region Finals.	Dawgs lost Final Four.
 
 	Carolina was the higher seed and lost.
 
1984  Lost to Indiana in Region Semis.	Indiana lost Region Finals.
 
 	Carolina was the higher seed and lost.
 
1985  Lost to Villanova in Region Finals.	Villanova took title.
 
 	Carolina was the higher seed and lost.
 
1986  Lost to Louisville in Region.	Louisville took title.

 	We'll give Carolina the benefit of the doubt here.  I honestly
 	don't remember who was higher seeded this year.
 
1987  Lost to Syracuse in Region Finals.	'Cuse lost Final Two.
 
 	Carolina was the higher seed and lost.
 
1988  Lost to Arizona in Region Finals.	'Zona lost Final Four.

 	Carolina was the lower seed here, I believe.
 
1989  Lost to Michigan in Region Semis.	Wolverines took title.
 
 	Carolina was the higher seed and lost.
 
1990  Lost to Arkansas in Region Semis.	Hogs lost Final Four.

 	Carolina was the lower seed here.
 
 That's one title, three losses to higher seeds, and six losses to lower
 seeds.  Regardless of reason, excuse, or rationale, no one can ignore the
 fact that Carolina's much-hyped now 11 straight years into the Sweet 16 is
 a bittersweet accomplishment.   Six upset losses in that span speaks
 volumes about the tight grip on Dean's throat.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.604Dean Smith's travails: a modern-day Candide...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 20 1991 13:3139
> Ah yes, the good ole selection committee, which decided to give Duke
> the East seed based on their winning the ACC Championship the previous
> year, gives them the East seed *again* based on their winning the ACC
> regular season.
    
    I'll repeat: Duke justified their seedings by reaching the Final Four
    four of five years.  This year, when Carolina gets the favorable
    seeding, if they don't get by "slight underdog" Eastern Michigan and
    then Okie State (probably, but #2 Syracuse is already gone), it's
    because we and the evil media expect too much.  Too funny, Chris.
    
> Three (3) of these losses were the result of playing against teams that
> were absolutely red-hot and went on to win Titles.  
    
    Which is exactly the point.  The team that is "red-hot" is the team
    that with good coaching and execution wins it all and is accorded said
    status after the fact, but not before.  How come Dean's teams, which 
    nobly sacrifice the occasional regular-season game for the greater 
    good as you say, aren't ever the possessed team that nobody can beat?  
    Sure, you can come up with an excuse (and some pretty bad ones at that) 
    in any given year, but as we showed before you'd think that the sheer 
    numbers and probabilities would push Carolina over the top once a 
    decade or at least every fifteen years or so.  But no, Carolina lives 
    in this universe where a confluence of events always conspires to block
    their path to the crown, but never anyone else's.
    
    As an objective onlooker, I'd have to say that Carolina's crowning
    achievement came before Dean and will remain after Dean as Frank
    McGuire's championship victory over the heavily favored Wilt 
    Chamberlain and Kansas.  If Dean were at the reins in that one, he'd 
    have thrown up his hands and exclaimed with that pathetic grimace of 
    his, "What could I do?", and the minions would have nodded in servile
    agreement.  Victory is never so sweet as when it's unexpected. 
    Old-time Carolina fans should be thankful that they at least had one
    such moment.
    
    glenn
     
17.605If you came looking for objectivity you better hed elsewhere...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 20 1991 13:5414
    re: .603
    
    > True objectivity
    
    Ho ho!, now that's a good 'un.  I may see things through my baby blue
    colored glasses, but when it comes to an objective critique of Carolina
    basketball, YOU, Mr.BobHunt, are clearly excused from duty due to
    outrageous and emotional bias.
    
    (We won't go into gory detail about why this is so, but let's just say
    lots_and_lots of UVa L's sums things up nicely.  Heh heh!!)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.606QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Wed Mar 20 1991 14:018
Dan'l! Roolin!

But I didn't understand the part about `pulling up their jockeys'.

Please explain. What does horse racing have to do with this?

Mike JN

17.607AXIS::ROBICHAUDVirginOnWaterbed-CherryFloatWed Mar 20 1991 14:015
17.608Farfetched as hell but give Chris a hand he's always got an answer AGNT99::CHILDSDean and Chris-Life's 13 pt underdogsWed Mar 20 1991 14:1212
 Never mind Freddie's gaffe I still got a bone over the refs calling goal 
 tending on the first 6 shots yeah right....

 Also please don't stop now guys you're slaying me....

 with all these injuries at key times and the annual choke due up this
 round who's the designated injuriee these year?

 my guess King Rice...

 mike
17.609STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishWed Mar 20 1991 14:3428
    
    ACChris,
    
    Give up the injury bullsh$t as an excuse because it just doesn't
    wash...
    
    Great teams and GREAT coaches overcome the adversity of an injury.
    Let me give you three very good examples...
    
    76' Starting guard and the team's best defender Bobby Wilkerson
    goes down in the opening minutes of the title game with a severe
    head injury, Knight rotates a series of players into the game and
    IU wins...
    
    81' Starting Forward Ted Kitchel goes to the bench early with severe
    back spasms and does not play the remainder of the game against
    a more talented NC team.  Knight makes adjustments and IU wins easily.
    
    87' Starting guard/forward Ricky Calloway breaks left hand during
    the tourny and re-injures it while wearing a CAST(sound familiar)
    after 2 minutes in the game.  Knight again makes adjustments and IU
    defeats a more talented Syracuse team....
    
    There is countless examples of teams overcoming injuries and adversity
    but can you give me a Dean Smith success story regarding one in the
    NCAA Tourney????
    
    Cap
17.610Another not-so-brilliant Cap theory shot downRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 20 1991 15:1415
> There is countless examples of teams overcoming injuries and adversity
> but can you give me a Dean Smith success story regarding one in the
> NCAA Tourney????

1977.  Phil Ford gets injured in the ACC Tournament and is way less
than 100% heading into the NCAA's, then Tommy LeGarde goes down with
an injury.

Carolina makes it to the finals playing with Rich Yoniker in the post
and Ford limping around before losing to an emotionally charged
Marquette squad.


- ACC Chris
    
17.611Ammended version - Sorry ACCaughtAXIS::ROBICHAUDVirginOnWaterbed-CherryFloatWed Mar 20 1991 15:185
17.612CAM::WAYDaylight come and me wan' go homeWed Mar 20 1991 15:2713
17.6131977 - Another fine vintage in the Choke CellarSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsWed Mar 20 1991 15:3515
 Ah, yes, the 1977 Carolina squad that lost to Al McGuire's swan song
 Marquette team ...
 
 That team had at least *FIVE* future NBA players on it ... 
 
 Phil Ford, Mike O'Koren, Tommy LaGarde, Walter Davis, and Dudley Bradley.  
 And it also had John Kuester, one of the very few of Dean's all-time best
 overachieving players.
 
 Who did Marquette have ???  Butch Lee, Jerome Whitehead, and three other
 no-names.  Whitehead had a cuppa coffee in the NBA but that's about it.
 
 And Carolina *STILL* lost.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.614STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishWed Mar 20 1991 15:4945
    
    But ACChris, again Carolina choked in the finals to an inferior team,
    they didn't overcome any adversity in the finals....
    
    Phil Ford missed no games that season and played well in the
    NCAA Tourney(in fact he was a key player in the victory over UNLV in
    the semifinals).  Tommy LeGarde went down in the 20th game, so Dean had
    more than enough time to adjust his team to the loss(13 games before
    the final LeGarde went down)
    
    Here is a newspaper account of that 77' choke job and of course Dean's
    reliance on his system....
    
    "...The Warriors were up 39-27 and had Carolina on the ropes, but
    Carolina made a great run at the start of the 2nd half, taking a brief
    lead for the first time in the half 45-43.  The Tar Heels had crept
    back in the game.  Marquette need the coach, and the coach was alert.
    
    Benard Toone retied the game at 45-45, then came the unthinkable.  With
    12 minutes and 45 seconds left, Dean Smith gave the signal for the four
    corners.  With that, the Carolina coach played directly into McGuire's
    hands.  'I couldn't believe he went to the four corners' said McGuire
    They had us on the ropes.' The Tar Heels lost the momentum as ford 
    dribbled around for the better part of two minutes.  Marquette moved out 
    of their zone to challenge, but as soon as Ford looked to set up a basket 
    underneath.  Ellis and Whitehead dropped back to the baseline.  It 
    happened a second time and a third time.  Finally with 9:48 showing, Bruce 
    Buckley misseda lay-up.  Marquette came up with the ball and McGuire came 
    off the bench.  He wanted his own delay game.  More than a minute later, 
    with Ford reaching for the steal, Boylan reversed direction and scored the
    go-ahead basket.  McGuire ordered more of the same and Marquette stayed
    with the 4-corners for the remainder of the game, winning easily by
    8 points.  McGuire and Smith had played a chess game, with McGuire
    winning easily."
    
    So you can see that Dean Smith took his team out of another
    championship game by foolishing signaling the four corners and taking
    all of the momentum away from his team, that probably would
    have won the title that year....
    
    Once again my not-so-brilliant theory kicks your intellectual ass!
    
    Cap
    
    P.S.  Oh by the way, Carolina was favored to win... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
17.615Tell the whole story - and I'm not a ACC fanEARRTH::BROOKSIt's 25 or 6 to 4 .... Wed Mar 20 1991 15:505
    re .609
    
    Cap, forget the 87 team. That was Smart and Alford, and a heavy helping
    of Jim BayWhine (tm) .... if Dean had the benefit of BayWhine or Guy
    Lewis in 83 :-(, then NC would have won too ...
17.616McGuire inspired, Dean inhaled...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 20 1991 15:517
    
    Yeah, Bob, but that Al McGuire could *coach*.  Like I heard one of
    these broadcaster boobs say this weekend (I think it was Vitale),
    how come he's not in the hoops Hall of Fame?
    
    glenn
    
17.617STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishWed Mar 20 1991 15:5717
    
    Here's the facts, Ricky Calloway was the third leading scorer, the
    third leading rebounder and was the team's best defender.
    
    Syracuse had Rony Seikaly, Derrick Coleman, Sherman Douglas, Stephen
    Thompson and two very good role players in Greg Monroe and Howard
    Triche..
    
    You said it all when you said that Indiana had Steve Alford and Keith
    Smart....
    
    Oh by the way, Doc, Smith couldn't beat Boeheim in 87' losing to him
    in the regional finals....
    
    Get you facts straight Doc, before mouthing off....
    
    Cap
17.618More propaganda, and incorrect at that. :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 20 1991 15:5916
    re: BobHunt
    
    Neither Tom LeGarde nor Mitch Kupchak were available in the tourney, so
    scratch them from your 'list'.  Also, as I mentioned, Phil Ford was
    playing injured and was nowhere near 100%.
    
    As to you Cap, you asked me to point to a time Carolina overcame
    injuries and I have.  Making the finals without your starting center
    and an injured PG was clearly an overachieve on Dean's part.  
    
    But of course I forget you're from the MorT school of thinking which
    says that, if you don't win a Title, it don't count for anything.
    in that intellectually barren sense, you are right.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.619Kupchak's team choked the year beforeSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsWed Mar 20 1991 16:1317
17.620As usual, the crux of the matter is ignored...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 20 1991 16:146
    
    Is it intellectually barren to bring up who was the higher seed, or who
    was favored in the game?
    
    glenn
    
17.621CAM::WAYDaylight come and me wan' go homeWed Mar 20 1991 16:283
Bottom line:

		Dean and his team take the gaspipe an awful lot....
17.623The more you win, the more noticeable your defeats.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 20 1991 17:0620
    Bottom line:
    
    Dean has put together the finest college basketball program in the USA.
    
    In regards to glenn:
    
    1. How was Carolina a 'higher seed' over Marquette, when they both
       reached the Final 4?  Seeds only apply (or at least are only
       published) relative to their respective region.
    
    2. Carolina may have been the favorite, but keep in mind odds are
       established to encourage betting, not predict a winner.  Given
       the visibility of the UNC program and Dean's reputation it's not
       surprising Vegas didn't factor in our injuries in determining
       who was the 'favorite', not to mention the emotional edge 
       Marquette had, what with it being McGuire's well-publicized last
       game.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.624More ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 20 1991 17:1117
    > This man would never leave his sinking ship!
    
    That's cause the ship ain't sinkin' Hawk.  As I said in .-1, the more
    you win, the more noticeable your defeats.  If Dean would only have
    lost more 1st round games, or suffered through some horrible seasons
    and not made the tourney, nobody would pay any attention and he'd be
    assumed to be a great overachiever.
    
    His consistent excellence has taken us deep into the tourney every
    year, where every loss is highly visible.  The Thypocrisy (tm) comes
    into play when no credit is given for reaching all these 'Big Games'. 
    (That's in quotes, cause in reality they're all big, and Dean's won a
    *TON* of 'em ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.625Hoping for OSU to make Final-4FTMUDG::REEDSutton+Houston=1992NCAAChampsWed Mar 20 1991 17:123
    re: last few
    
    When is UNC scheduled to choke this time?
17.626Nice try, ACChrisNAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 20 1991 17:1614
    
       > Given the visibility of the UNC program and Dean's reputation 
       > it's not surprising Vegas didn't factor in our injuries in 
       > determining who was the 'favorite', 
    
    Believe me, bettors always factor in injuries.  It's the one way to
    establish an edge.  And if they'd factored in Dean's reputation, UNC
    should have been prohibitive underdogs for sure!
    
    Your ability to continually establish UNC as the little guy in spite of
    all evidence to the contrary *is* astounding, though...
    
    glenn
    
17.627I admit, I don't know much about these guysRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 20 1991 17:2015
    Assuming Carolina gets past E. Michigan and OSU defeats Temple I'd
    look for a potentially dynamite Houston vs. George Lynch matchup.
    
    Lynch is quickly becoming one of my favorite Tar Heels.  This kid has a
    *toughness* about him that I haven't seen from a Carolina player in a
    long time.  Houston on the other hand is pretty much unstoppable, but
    my impression is he gets it done more from the inside than the outside. 
    We've got alot of *big* bodies he'll have to contend with in there ...
    
    Who can give a complete scouting report on OSU?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
17.628Stepped it UP against 'novaVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitWed Mar 20 1991 17:428
    >Lynch is quickly becoming one of my favorite Tar Heels.  This kid has a
    >*toughness* about him that I haven't seen from a Carolina player in a
    >long time. 
    
    James Worthy comes to mind when I see Lynch.  I'd like to see him start
    getting the ball more in the low post.
    
    Dan
17.629I've seen them only twice this year....FTMUDG::REEDSutton+Houston=1992NCAAChampsWed Mar 20 1991 17:4419
    I can give ya SOME poop on OSU.  Houston HAS been unstoppable--unless
    you can get him to get fouls early.  He probably averages 20 points
    and rebounds a game.  He's about 6'7" and would make a great
    linebacker.  When Houston comes out then 7' Pittman goes in.  He's
    a lousy 25% at the line but does score some under the basket and does
    well rebounding.  There won't be many that will push this guy around
    either--Pittman is one stout dude for a 7'er.  He won't prick you with
    boney elbows like the stick man from BYU.
    
    Basically, OSU will try to slow things down with careful shooting and
    tough, physical defense.  (NC St got 30 under their average against
    OSU).  They have a couple of outside shooters that were hot in the NCSt
    game (Sutton, the coaches son, and Alexander(?)) but OSU will make most
    of their points in the 2pt range.  Overall, the team is not good at the
    line and usually have too many turn-overs.  This is a team that is
    mostly over-achievers and have alot of respect for coach Eddie Sutton
    and must feel good about their season already.
    
    Cowboy
17.630Slowing tempo and hot shooting could be essential for OSURHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 20 1991 17:5715
    Thanks C-boy.  Again, I think Lynch vs. Houston should be interesting.
    Lynch is also 6-7 who also is at his worst if he gets a couple fouls
    early.  When OSU counters with Pittman I'd look for Dean to come with
    Rozier (Lynch's backup) or Montross.  Eric matches up better
    physically, and Dean has gone with him and Chilcutt on the baseline at
    times.
    
    I'd say OSU's outside shooting will be key.  It will be difficult to
    impossible for them to win a physical battle with Carolina, but if
    their guards are hot it could spell trouble.
    
    Who will they put on Fox?  (Small Forward)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.631FTMUDG::REEDSutton+Houston=1992NCAAChampsWed Mar 20 1991 18:3911
    I just hope that both UNC and OSU make it another round for this
    matchup.  They should but who knows...  
    
    As to who'll cover who, can't help you much there.  It's been
    tough to get individual/team info on BIG-8 teams living in a
    WAC city area (Colo Springs/Air Force).  Hopefully, before next
    season I'll be lounging in front of a BIG screen home theatre
    turbo-injected by a sports-only satellite dish.
    
    Cobwoy
    
17.632ACC Chris appearing in a sports bar near you Friday nightRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 20 1991 18:4813
    Well folks I'm outa here for a couple of weeks.  The family begins the
    20-hour trek to New England tomorrow (should be a barrel of fun with a
    2-month old on board) and I'll be in Bedford nexted week, where I'll be
    sure to log on Monday AM if we're in the Final 4.  (If not I don't plan
    on catching up on old notes, so spare me the grief.)
    
    If any defense of the Heels is needed, I'm humbly handing the baton
    over to a most Worthy Dan Schneider.
    
    Later dudes,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.633MrT/ACCChris : Sorta like Batman and The Joker ... twistedEARRTH::BROOKSIt's 25 or 6 to 4 .... Wed Mar 20 1991 18:528
    
>    Your ability to continually establish UNC as the little guy in spite of
>    all evidence to the contrary *is* astounding, though...
 
    Glenn, if you inserted "Indiana" in place of UNC, we'd have a perfect
    MrT-ism too !!!!

    DrM
17.634If I don't do it, Doug Ross will ! ;-)EARRTH::BROOKSIt's 25 or 6 to 4 .... Wed Mar 20 1991 18:5610
    
    re .628
        
>    James Worthy comes to mind when I see Lynch.  I'd like to see him start
>    getting the ball more in the low post.
 
    I bet those two co-eds would like to see more of Lynch's low post 
    too .... :-)
    
    Doc
17.635ruined my daySACT41::ROSSDean happensWed Mar 20 1991 18:594
>       <<< Note 17.628 by VAXWRK::SCHNEIDER "The crux of the biscuit" >>>
>    James Worthy comes to mind when I see Lynch.  

Up until today, George Lynch was my favorite Tar Heel... :-(  
17.636I've always liked Lynch as well. Nice to see him getting creditVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitWed Mar 20 1991 19:086
>Up until today, George Lynch was my favorite Tar Heel... :-(  
    
    Obviously, your subconscious was working to correct the grave wrongs
    you've committed in the past...
    
    Dan
17.637UPWARD::HEISERej :== @via_music.comWed Mar 20 1991 19:092
    George Lynch is a great guitar player from Arizona.  He's not a tar
    heel ;-)
17.638EARRTH::BROOKSIt's 25 or 6 to 4 .... Wed Mar 20 1991 19:201
    I was wondering where Doug Ross was ! :-)
17.639MCIS1::DHAMELChoc. bunnies yes;M'mallow chicks noWed Mar 20 1991 19:248
    
    >    Well folks I'm outa here for a couple of weeks.
    
    Bowing out so early with the tournament still going on?  You're
    carrying this Dean emulation thing too far! 8^)
    
    Dickstah
    
17.640RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOLet's go Seton Hall, SJU, UCONN!Thu Mar 21 1991 13:5319
    I was out yesterday, but just got through reading Chris' 'objective'
    analysis of Snuffy Smif' woeful coaching jobs in the 'sweet' 16.
    
    What did I read?  A lot of whining about injuries, or about teams being
    red hot.  And a refusal of acknowledging the Fred Brown gaffe.  Take a
    look at that team - the team taht had to rely on a freshman's mistake
    to clinch the title game.  A team that had James Worthy, Sam Perkins,
    and Micheal Jordan (who hit the game-winner) - against a *young*
    Georgetown team, with a freshman in Patrick Ewing starting at center,
    The frosh Fred Brown at guard, a couple of other youngsters - against
    an all-star team - and Smif did his damdest to blow the game.  He was
    *outcoached*, that's right, *OUTCOACHED*!!! in that game by JOHN
    THOMPSON!!!!!!!  HAW HAW HAW. 
    
    Making the sweet 16 is nice.  Rarely making it to the BIG show, and
    only once winning a title, despite the oodles of talent, makes Smif out
    to be the biggest underachiever to ever stalk the sidelines.  
    
    JD
17.641CAM::WAYSame old, same old, Jimmy Rain...Thu Mar 21 1991 13:5816
I intend no disrespect, but here's how I'd characterize ACC Chris'
staunch views on NC....

I'm a Giants fan.  If I continually touted them as an excellent team
in here because they consistently win the NFC Title, for example,
but lose in the playoffs, I'd be laughed out of here.  

I could say the Giants have one of the best teams in football, but the
fact that they take the gaspipe in the playoffs would show that they
dont' have what it takes to win the big one....

NC has a poor record at best in the NCAAs.  The one win that they did
garner, was on a freshman's gaffe....  Chris' eyes must surely be
behind real big baby blue glasses....

'Saw
17.642Blind Faith vs the Objectivity FactorSHALOT::MEDVIDwild but not lostThu Mar 21 1991 14:079
    ACChris is to Tarheels as Hal is to Browns.
    
    But somehow you've got to admire both for their consistency.  If I got
    clobbered as much as they did in this conference, I probably would have
    typed DELETE ENTRY SPORTS a long time ago.
    
    A thanks to both for sticking around and making it interesting!
    
    	--dan'l
17.643just imagineSACT41::ROSSDean happensThu Mar 21 1991 14:143
Not that it should happen, but just imagine if the Tar Heels lose to
Eastern Michigan.   Why, I bet MrT's thighs wouldn't stop shuddering 
until August.
17.644AXIS::ROBICHAUDVirginOnWaterbed-CherryFloatThu Mar 21 1991 15:031
    	Snuffy is to coaching as MTV's Pauley Shore is to masculinity.
17.645The definitive treatise on Dean SmithSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Mar 21 1991 15:2371
 It's not really a problem in the great big cosmos of things but the
 "problem" that most of us have with Chris' feelings about the Tar Heels is
 that he is 100% representative of most every Tar Heel fan that ever lived.
 
 What that really says is that Chris should not be singled out.  He does
 stand alone, nevertheless and perhaps unfortunately, because he's the only
 rabid Heels fan here in SPORTS.  I *GUARANTEE* you that if we had just one
 more lifelong Heelster in here, we would see similar feelings, responses,
 and defenses.    Two or three more and you'd swear they were cloned in
 some hush-hush bioengineering plant somewhere near Chapel Hill.
 
 I can imagine that there is much to like about Dean Smith and his program. 
 Certainly, the fall and spring high school recruit signing periods are
 extremely enjoyable in Tar Heel Land.  Dean is easily the best hoops
 recruiter in the country and the faithful always have a lot to cheer
 about when Dean displays his new trophy case every year.
 
 And he wins a s**tload of games, too.   Superior talent does that for you. 
 It's the law of large numbers.  You play enough games with superb talent
 and you are going to rack up over 700 lifetime wins.   Heels fans are used
 to 20-plus wins per season, finishing in the top 1 or 2 slots in the
 conference, and making it to the Sweet Sixteen.
 
 He doesn't get any more referee's calls turned for or against him than
 anybody else, his players don't have more or less injuries than other
 teams, there is no grand conspiracy, no secret protocols, no midnight
 payoffs, ...
 
 Nope, just a coach with a yearly surplus of basketball talent who
 consistently underachieves with that talent.  True, no man can win 30
 titles in 30 years.   But, surely this man should have won more than just
 his one gift title in New Orleans in 1982.
 
 The Tar Heel faithful ignore this "fact" utterly and completely.  Dean
 hasn't seen the inside of a Final Four since that night in New Orleans
 and, I swear, they love him even more today than they did that night.  
 They worship the ground he walks on, they accept his words and thoughts
 like they were bread from heaven, and they erected a temple in his name.
 
 And still he falls short ... and still the faithful applaud.   Year in and
 year out, they keep on clapping.
 
 Here's an interesting "What if" scenario for you ...  
 
 The Philadelphia Eagles recently fired Buddy Ryan because he failed to win
 his playoff games.   Ryan lasted 5 years in Philly.  He inherited a
 splintered, discouraged team and whipped it into a playoff contender by
 his third season.   Then he lost three playoff games in a row and was
 canned.
 
 Dean Smith has been in Chapel Hill for 30 years and has come home beaten
 and discouraged in 29 of those years.   Dean Smith took 5 years before he
 ever saw a winning record at UNC and then has consistently underachieved
 (again, 1982 excepted).
 
 How long would Smith have lasted if he were coaching in Philadelphia ??? 
 Heck, forget the Eagles, how long would Smith have lasted at Villanova if
 he were there instead of Rollie Massimino.  How long at Temple instead of
 John Chaney ???
 
 Don't you think they'd have run him out of town ages ago ???
 
 If it wasn't for the incredible blind "Emperor's New Clothes" worship that
 the Tar Heel faithful lavish on this charlatan, Dean Smith would be no
 more a legend than other coaches like Ralph Miller, Eddie Sutton, Larry
 Brown, George Raveling, and a host of others who have bounced around the
 entire country carpetbagging their way from gym to gym to gym.
 
 Think about it ...
 
 Bob Hunt
17.646CAM::WAYSame old, same old, Jimmy Rain...Thu Mar 21 1991 15:448
So Bob,  I see what you are saying.

Can you shed any light at to "why" the Tar Heels fans are so much like
that?

btw, I particularly like the comparison to Buddy Ryan.... GOOD point!

'Saw
17.647I have no explanation, thoughNAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Mar 21 1991 16:2215
    
    I didn't say anything before, but this arrogant little nugget pretty
    well sums it up:
    
    > Dean has put together the finest college basketball program in the USA.
    
    Now granted, the program is strong and healthy nearly every year, but
    even the supposed sleaze-pit across the state has more national titles
    in half the time that Dean has coached.
    
    I find it hard to believe that even a Notre Dame football backer would
    make the above claim without blushing at least a little bit.
    
    glenn
     
17.648Speaking of sleaze pits...SHALOT::MEDVIDwild but not lostThu Mar 21 1991 16:4515
>    even the supposed sleaze-pit across the state has more national titles
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    I assume you mean NC State.  FYI, it's in Raleigh which is only a few
    minutes down the road from Chapel Hill.
    
    'Saw, I've been trying to figure out the "my team can do no wrong"
    mentality all my life.  For some reason, Cleveland fans are the same
    way.  I'm not trying to be funny or mean here.  This is my general
    observation.
    
    Perhaps it has something to do with an inferiority complex related to
    underachievement.
    
    	--dan'l
17.649CAM::WAYSame old, same old, Jimmy Rain...Thu Mar 21 1991 16:5510
Well, I can understand Cleveland a bit, because it's been my
experience that folks from that area of the country are really
rabid, rabid SPORTS fans, especially football.  

That area of the country (Pittsburgh, Western PA, Cleveland etc) is
probably second only to Texas in terms of emphasis on HS football.

I don't understand the NC thing though....

'Saw
17.650Smith is Lee to Heels' fansSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Mar 21 1991 17:1970
17.651QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Thu Mar 21 1991 17:3710
Demmee, Joe Bob Hunt! I think you have hit it on the haid!
Excellent Note...... as usual (beatcha Hawk).

I'm kinda choked up. It's really sort of pathetic. Imagine. All those
Baby Blue hoopsters. Whenever they hear the name Bob Knight.. they're
probably thinking "SHERMAN!!!!".

mebbe we should take up a collection.

Mike JN
17.652DECWET::METZGEROh No, I've said too much...Thu Mar 21 1991 17:4111

SO should UNC change their uniform color to Grey?

Mebbee they could walk in to the confederate flag and all the wimmins could
wear long dresses to the game...

I get it !!! the Tar Heels are just being gentlemen by losing every year....


Metz
17.653Bob "Encyclopedia" Hunt does it again!SHALOT::MEDVIDwild but not lostThu Mar 21 1991 17:518
    Bob,
    
    I think that is probably the greatest note ever written in this
    conference.  I nominate it for NOTC (Note of the Century).
    
    Keyword it so we can point it out to Chris when he returns.
    
    	--dan'l
17.654RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOLet's go Seton Hall, SJU, UCONN!Thu Mar 21 1991 17:5216
    Bob,
    
    Great notes.  Outlines why I've gotten beat up by a lot of Red Sox
    fans.  Even though I'm a fan, I don't consider Eastern Division titles
    as success anymore - especially after 3 in 5 years.  I feel they have
    to move beyond the good losers syndrome and into the winner's circle.
    The excuses are almost the same:  Buckner's gaffe, The A's just too
    hot, Terry Cooney, Bob Stanley, fate, etc...
    
    One of two excellent losses are flukes, a pattern of them is
    attributable to something else - and in the Tarhells (tm) case, it
    points to Snuffy.  He's the one constant in all of the excellent
    losses.  
    
    
    JD
17.655QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Thu Mar 21 1991 18:029
If NC win this year, it's really gonna spoil our fun, and ACCrisp is
gonna be unbearable for the rest of our lives.

Let's hope that in the finest tradition of the South (Suh!) and UNC,
that Snuffy can once again lead the Dirty Feet to Glorious D-feet!

(Not bad, hey? Dirty Feet... D-Feet... AWP!... sorry)

Mike JN
17.656From the other side of the Mason-Dixon...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Mar 21 1991 18:0515
    
    I wonder how ACChris will respond to this astonishing bit of 
    psychoanalysis?
    
    One small nit as I'm sure that the comparison was not intended as an
    exact one anyway... Joe Paterno is not retained and respected in the 
    Happy Valley for the same reasons Smith is at Chapel Hill.  Yes, 
    football is the number one game in town, but Paterno has more than 
    lived up to expectations, as two national titles, three other 
    undefeated, untied teams, and a .600+ bowl game winning percentage 
    attest to.  If Paterno is over the hill, he has at least earned a
    retirement with full acclaim.
    
    glenn
     
17.657AXIS::ROBICHAUDSnuffy'sSeenMoreChokesThanHeimlichThu Mar 21 1991 18:132
    
    
17.658"Good" losers? Not gonna let you get away with that one...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Mar 21 1991 18:1417
    > Great notes.  Outlines why I've gotten beat up by a lot of Red Sox
    > fans.  Even though I'm a fan, I don't consider Eastern Division titles
    > as success anymore - especially after 3 in 5 years.  I feel they have
    > to move beyond the good losers syndrome and into the winner's circle.
    > The excuses are almost the same:  Buckner's gaffe, The A's just too
    > hot, Terry Cooney, Bob Stanley, fate, etc...
    
    Wrong, wrong, wrong.  How long did you live around here, JD?  Most 
    Red Sox fans I know point to the events of 1978, 1986, etc. and curse
    themselves and all the principals involved.  They're an angry, bitter 
    lot.  ACChris would point to 1978 and 1986 and come up with Butch
    Hobson's bone chips and Buckner's heels as examples of how Zimmer and
    McNamara overcame the adversity of injuries...
    
    glenn
    
17.659Heels ripe for pickin' ???SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Mar 21 1991 18:1619
17.660CAM::WAYSame old, same old, Jimmy Rain...Thu Mar 21 1991 18:198
Yeah, JD, I've got to agree with Glenn.  I've been a die hard Sox
fan since 1966 and anything short of the Series title is a choke or
a fold.

To me, Eastern Division crown in the last 3 of 5 is okay, but until
they win it all......

'Saw
17.661CAM::WAYSame old, same old, Jimmy Rain...Thu Mar 21 1991 18:198
Bob Hunt...

That was a superb note.  I will second the nomination for Note of the
Century.  

By all means, bronze that baby and send it to ACC Chris.....

'Saw
17.662It's gotta happen...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Mar 21 1991 18:217
    
    I'm holding out for nothing short of Carolina-Indiana.  That way
    there'll be someone storming out of here, with a trail of deleted 
    notes scattered behind them...
    
    glenn
     
17.663RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOLet's go Seton Hall, SJU, UCONN!Thu Mar 21 1991 18:2516
    Glenn and Saw,
    
    I've been a Sox fan my whole life, as has my father before me.  I lived
    in Boston for 14 years, FWIW.  (But last I looked, one can be a
    fanwithout living in the area...)
    
    And to me there is bitterness, yes, Glenn, but lots of the "Well, I'd
    rather win the East than not make the playoffs" type rationalization
    after the Sox get thrashed by the A's.  I've seen it too many times.
    
    But that's off the subject.  Heck, in this here Notes conference, when
    I said I expected the Sox to win it all, and that I felt they improved
    the team, I got lambasted by the negative nay-sayers that are BoSox
    fans.
    
    JD
17.664Paterno <> SmithSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Mar 21 1991 18:2821
 You're right, Glenn, the reference to Paterno was to point out that
 everything both he and Smith do are done from within very isolated
 fishbowls.
 
 Smith has survived the scrutiny because the Heels faithful don't get all
 that angry with him for his underachievements.   They, in fact, revel in
 them for the reasons I mentioned in the "Lost Cause" note.   To
 Southerners, the Civil War was the very first "Excellent Loss".  A hundred
 and twenty-five years later and the concept is still in full flourish in
 Chapel Hill, North Carolina.
 
 Joe Paterno has much more often than not matched his team's talents with
 their expectations.    He would not have survived in Happy Valley had he
 not done so since Pennsylvanians have no such love for gallant losers.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  Native Southerners need not jump all over me in defense of their
 ancestors.  I happen to think that the Army Of Northern Virginia was one
 of the most remarkable and incredible collections of soldiers ever
 assembled.
17.665IU-UNC would be too good to be trueSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Mar 21 1991 18:339
 Re: Indiana-Carolina matchup in the Final Four.
 
 If there is a God, this has to happen.  There will be more fur flying in
 this conference than all the Denver Broncos, Designated Hitter, Wilt vs.
 Russell, and John Thompson notes combined.
 
 We need this game.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.666Smif' always has starters from NY, NJ, or PA - even one from MAWORDY::NAZZAROSo much for Princeton!Thu Mar 21 1991 18:368
    Congrats, Bob Hunt - you've achieved that which all of us have 
    long-sought:  the perfect note!
    
    Ah jest have one questyin for all ya grand Suthin supporters of
    Carolina:  how can you stand ta root fo' a team with so many
    Yankees on it every year?????
    
    NAZZ
17.667The devil made Nazz do it!AXIS::ROBICHAUDSnuffy'sSeenMoreChokesThanHeimlichThu Mar 21 1991 18:391
    
17.668How about some close to home psychoanalysis ?EARRTH::BROOKSIn memorium : Al Cote ...Thu Mar 21 1991 18:495
    So Bob, what is your theory as to why UVa couldn't win a title (in
    fact, never made the title game) in four years with Player Of The Year
    Ralph Sampson ?
    
    doc
17.670RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOLet's go Seton Hall, SJU, UCONN!Thu Mar 21 1991 19:1215
    Doc,
    
    The *huge* difference between UNC of the last few decades and the Ralph
    Sampson era UVa was that UNC still had more talent than those Ralph
    teams ever did, despite Ralph being on Virginia.  Virginia's lineup
    never read like a future all-star game program, as did UNC's.  Heck,
    Akeem's Houston Cougar teams were *much* more talent laden than
    Sampson's UVa teams.  If I remember correctly, UVa won the NIT when
    Ralph was there, and lost once in the Final Four - not certain, of
    that, and lost in the other two NCAA appearances.
    
    No comparison between Terry Holland's Hoos and Snuffy Smif's Tarhells
    (TM)
    
    JD
17.671Wahoos clutched their tracheas big time, DocSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Mar 21 1991 19:5845
 Virginia (with Ralph Sampson) choked, Doc, pure and simple.   
 
 Unlike Tar Heel fans, Virginia fans can actually say the "choke" word
 without doing a Fonzie who could only mumble whatever it was he thought
 was too uncool to say.
 
 Virginia won the NIT in 1980 and it was a true springboard to some
 excellent teams to come.   Good enough for that year.  I was at the Garden
 when the Hoos beat McHale's Gophers.  A magic moment for a program on the
 doorstep of greatness.   We all penciled in the next three years for
 something really special.
 
 The 1981 team made it to the Final Four and lost to Carolina.  Al Wood
 went nuts in the 2nd half and the Hoos blew it.  No excuse whatsoever. 
 That's Choke No. 1.   The 1982 team lost to Alabama-Birmingham on their
 own home court in the Sweet Sixteen.  No excuse.  That's Choke No. 2.  
 And the 1983 team lost to Valvano's miracle NC State team by a point in
 the West Region Finals.  Again, no excuse.  That's Choke No. 3.    
 
 Strike one, two and three ... bye Ralph.  
 
 Very, very, very disheartening.   1981 was a lot of fun since they made
 the climb that year but the ending sipped big time.  1982 and 1983 were
 just plain bummers.
 
 The next year, 1984, they overachieved *massively* when they went to the
 Final Four by beating Indiana after the Hoosiers had knocked off No. 1
 Carolina.  There the Hoos went to overtime against Houston before losing
 by 2 points.  I was thrilled by that team.
 
 Since then, they've had a yo-yo string.  They've flopped in the NCAAs with
 first-round losses to DePaul, Wyoming, and now Brigham Young.   But they
 also overachieved nicely in 1989 when they upset Billy Tubbs' Sooners and
 then met Michigan in the Region Finals.   
 
 I get extremely pissed at them when they underwhelm.  I didn't enjoy the
 BYU loss at *all* this year.   But I can look back at 1984 and 1989 with a
 nice smile because they went *much* farther than they had reason to
 expect.
 
 You'll *never* get this kind of honest self-analysis out of a Tar Heel
 fan.  Every loss is excused away for one reason or another and their
 adoration for Smith just grows and grows and grows.   It's truly baffling.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.672QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Thu Mar 21 1991 20:0715
17.673ISLNDS::WASKOMThu Mar 21 1991 20:525
    Hawk -
    
    It's French.  One pronounces it "gaff".
    
    A&W
17.674COMET::WADEI won't....back....down.Thu Mar 21 1991 20:556
    
    	That's it Mikey!  I'm coming over to your cubicle and taking
    	away your stash of SPORTSshrooms(tm) until you can learn not to 
    	overindulge!  Freakin' lunatics..........
    
    	Claybroon
17.675QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Thu Mar 21 1991 21:0112
As A&W (Rootbeer) says, its pronounced gaff

it means the same as fox paw (faux pas pronounced foe pa)

spelled gaff it means a pole with a metal hook on it to land fish with,
or, sometimes, it can mean an extension on a sail spar used to extend
the top edge of the sail.

I also recall hearing the term `flying gaff', but I don't know what the
hell it means

Mike JN
17.676The anti-Dean clique is shamelessVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitThu Mar 21 1991 21:026
>If NC win this year, it's really gonna spoil our fun...
    
    I don't think so.  Most of the arguments are so emotional and
    propoganda-loaded that facts don't stand in the way at all.
    
    Dan
17.677Geez, even glenn's been programmed...VAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitThu Mar 21 1991 21:0912
 >The 1981 team made it to the Final Four and lost to Carolina.  Al Wood
 >went nuts in the 2nd half and the Hoos blew it.  No excuse whatsoever. 
 >That's Choke No. 1. 
       
    If UVa "choked" by losing to Carolina, doesn't it stand to reason that
    Dean overachieved by beating the Hoos?  
    
    Earlier in the day, didn't you make the incredibly biased and
    subjective statement that "the next time Dean Smith overachieves will
    be the first"?
    
    Dan
17.678AGNT99::CHILDSBaseball = Hi-Bore-Nation Season ;^(Thu Mar 21 1991 21:525
 Well Dan if UVA choked then it was their fault they lost. UNC won by default
 not by Snuffy overachieving...

 hope that clears it up for you....
17.679Bye bye Bobby - see ya on the links!CST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Fri Mar 22 1991 11:598
    There is no god [sic] as JD pointed out when he said
    
    "Indiana vs Carolina" or someting like that.
    
    Hoosiers lost big time last night
    
    kev
    
17.680Not with that lineup, they didn'tSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsFri Mar 22 1991 12:467
17.681From the Lou Holtz book of set ups:SHALOT::MEDVIDwild but not lostFri Mar 22 1991 12:496
    Dean was on the local tube last night saying that Eastern Michigan was
    very capable of beating the Heels by 30 points.  He then began to say
    how dominant the Hurons would be because they start four seniors and a
    junior.
    
    	--dan'l
17.6827221::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Fri Mar 22 1991 13:1243
Bob Hunt was nice enough to let me borrow his ACC program for some information
about the league tournament.  I didn't get records of the teams against each
other and the program didn't include seedings so I couldn't figure out all-time
regular season results, but there is some good info to share with all of you.

Over time, this tournament has proven to be really accurate in terms of the
regular season predicting tournament performance.  The #1 seed has won 20 of the
38 titles, #2 has won 7, #3 has 4, #4 has won 4 and #6 has won 3.

The all time records are:
					1st	2nd	3rd
North Carolina		55-25		12	 7	10
Duke			50-30		 8	 9	 9
NC State		44-28		10	 3	10
Georgia Tech		 9-10		 2	 1	 1
Wake Forest		28-36		 2	 6	11
Maryland		26-35		 2	 5	11
Virginia		23-37		 1	 4	12
Clemson			 8-38		 0	 1	 6
South Carolina		12-17		 1	 2	 6

North Carolina is 5-1 vs Duke in title games while Duke is 4-1 vs Wake Forest.
Those are the most frequent matchups in title games.  Clemson's only title game
appearance was in 1962, a 77-66 loss to Wake Forest.  Clemson's only regular
season title was in 1990.  When it comes to hoops, they should stick to foot-
ball.

Year-by-year the winner has been:

1954	NC State	1967	North Carolina	1980	Duke
1955	NC State	1968	North Carolina	1981	North Carolina
1956	NC State	1969	North Carolina	1982	North Carolina
1957	North Carolina	1970	NC State	1983	NC State
1958	Maryland	1971	South Carolina	1984	Maryland
1959	NC State	1972	North Carolina	1985	Georgia Tech
1960	Duke		1973	NC State	1986	Duke
1961	Wake Forest	1974	NC State	1987	NC State
1962	Wake Forest	1975	North Carolina	1988	Duke
1963	Duke		1976	Virginia	1989	North Carolina
1964	Duke		1977	North Carolina	1990	Georgia Tech
1965	NC State	1978	Duke		1991	North Carolina
1966	Duke		1979	North Carolina
    
17.683Dean Smith and Michelangelo ???SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsFri Mar 22 1991 15:2825
 A sportswriter in this morning's "Charlotte Observer" has a column about
 tonight's North Carolina vs Eastern Michigan matchup.
 
 This writer, Ron Green, is a Baby Blue Pee-Pee Smoocher (BBPPS) of the
 highest order and he got himself an interview with Hurons' coach Ben
 Braun, it would appear.
 
 Here's a piece of the article ...
 
    "Since Dean Smith is sometimes referred to as the Michelangelo of
    college coaching, is there a painter Braun would compare himself to?
    
    Braun grinned and said "No" but he wished he could be because it was a
    chance to get into newspapers across the country."
    
 I mean is this "blow chunks" material or what ???   This is like Baba WaWa
 asking Katherine Hepburn "what kind of a twee she would wike to bwe".
 
 Dean Smith compared to Michelangelo.  Hoo, boy, that is way way way too
 funny.    Obviously, if Michel-O was like Dean, he would have painted just
 the Four Corners of the Sistine Chapel ceiling.  Fortunately, for mankind
 and the Italian Renaissance, Big Mike used his talent to its maximum
 potential and finished the job.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.684when the mob rears its ugly headVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitFri Mar 22 1991 15:3811
 >How could a college basketball team with James Worthy, Sam Perkins, and Al
 >Wood on it overachieve ???
    
    If the premise is that Dean Smith is "not a great coach" because he has
    never overachieved, and you defined away any possibility that Dean
    Smith can ever overachieve, you have constructed an airtight semantical
    argument.
    
    Congrats.
    
    Dan
17.685As an aside ...CSCOAC::ROLLINS_RFri Mar 22 1991 15:392
By the way, I've seen EMU twice listed as Hurons, but they no longer go
by that nickname as it has a possiiblity of offending Native Americans.
17.686Nice try, DanSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsFri Mar 22 1991 15:5316
 Well, thanks, Dan-o.   But you haven't quite nailed it down yet.
 
 The premise here is not that Smith sips because he doesn't overachieve. 
 Besides, even if you want to create your counterpoint argument that the
 Heels upset Virginia in the Final Four in 1981, then you run smack head on
 into their gaspipe job against the Hoosiers two nights later.
 
 Quite the contrary, Smith is not a great coach because his teams
 consistently underachieve.   Big big difference.
 
 Davey Johnson's Mets underachieved hugely.  He's playing golf in Florida
 now.  But ol' Snuff just keeps rolling along getting more and more
 legendary with each and every embarassing year-ending throat grabber. 
 Salieri in sneakers.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.687Eastern Michigan "Blanks"SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsFri Mar 22 1991 15:579
 Re: Eastern Michigan Hurons ...
 
 You're right, I read the same thing.  But there's a little more to it than
 that.   Right now, they have a lame duck nickname.  They agreed to give it
 up at the end of the school year in May, I believe.   Thus, right now,
 technically they are still the "Hurons" but they're trying to get by with
 using that nickname as little as possible now.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.688Rathole...but this will end tonight...unless Dean chokesSHALOT::MEDVIDwild but not lostFri Mar 22 1991 16:259
    How can the actual name of a legendary Indian tribe be offensive.  I
    think that's carrying it too far.  Redskins can be viewed as offensive,
    but not the actual name of a tribe.  In fact, if I were a member of
    that tribe, I'd be proud that it's name is being used in the press all
    over the world.
    
    Is it any more offensive that the Fighting Irish?
    
    	--dan'l
17.689BSS::JCOTANCHColorado Football: #1 for 1990Fri Mar 22 1991 16:304
    RE Hurons' nickname
    
    Heck, if Hurons is offending some people, how come there's not more
    problems with other nicknames like Seminoles, Utes, etc?
17.690QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Fri Mar 22 1991 16:3211
17.691Too easy?SHALOT::MEDVIDwild but not lostFri Mar 22 1991 16:3713
    But here is the obvious replacement:
    
     The Eastern Michigan University 
    
    
    
    Emu!
    
    Then they'd be the EMU Emus!
    
    	--dan'l
    
    
17.692ACChris is much more fun, anyway...NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Mar 22 1991 17:0122
    >               -< Geez, even glenn's been programmed... >-
    
    Hardly, Dan.  I responded to the emotional, propaganda-loaded
    assertions that Dean Smith gives games away that he could win but 
    won't because he's seeing the big picture, and that North Carolina 
    is the number one basketball program in the USA.  I haven't said 
    that Dean always chokes or never overachieves, only that the
    tournament results are there for all to see and are pretty hard to 
    ignore.
    
    JD's analogy with the Red Sox is accurate insofar as like Carolina, the
    Sox have their own proud history of "Sweet Sixteen" finishes, with a
    nearly unequaled record of winning seasons in the last 25 years.  They
    nevertheless lack the post-season goods to show for it.  Somehow, 
    however, you have no problem whatsoever maintaining your "objectivity"
    in detailing Red Sox' "chokes" to the exclusion of any and all credit.
    I have no problem with that, and if it weren't the case I'd be
    disappointed.  A little consistency wouldn't hurt though...
    
    glenn
       
17.693Read in SI last night...NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Mar 22 1991 17:0711
    > Emu!
    > 
    > Then they'd be the EMU Emus!
    
    This was the winner of an actual newspaper contest (not sure, I think
    in Detroit) to name the team.  I thought the same thing when I saw the
    initials on their uniform.  Too obvious, like you said...
    
    glenn
    
17.694CAM::WAYSame old, same old, Jimmy Rain...Fri Mar 22 1991 17:1817
You know this nickname thing bothers me.  Not that the name might
be offensive, but it's like dan'l says, what's the problem?

Names like the Fighting Irish etc were started long ago and have
become tradition.  If a tribe was known for its tenacity and
bravery in battle, why shouldn't a team be named after them.

I mean are we going to change the name of Lake Huron because, heaven
forbid, it might be offensive?  Or was the tribe named after the lake,
in which case we should change the name of the tribe because the lake
might get offended....

I think sometimes people look too hard for things to piss and moan
about.


'Saw
17.695IFF your name is Smith and IFF no title = choke.VAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitFri Mar 22 1991 17:2010
 >Quite the contrary, Smith is not a great coach because his teams
 >consistently underachieve.   Big big difference.
    
    RIght, HUGE difference.  We've gone from one highly subjective (and
    loaded) measurement ("never overachieves") to another ("consistently
    underachieves").
    
    When I see a difference, I'll let you know.
    
    Dan
17.696WHo's being inconsistent?VAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitFri Mar 22 1991 17:2726
    >I responded to the emotional, propaganda-loaded assertions ...
    
    ... by contributing to the emotional, propaganda-loaded assertions of
    the Smith antagonists.
    
    >only that the
    >tournament results are there for all to see and are pretty hard to 
    >ignore.                                        
    
    Yes, as I recall you said he always goes home early, despite the fact
    that the opposite is true.
    
    >A little consistency wouldn't hurt though...
    
    I'm forced by my nature to offer a lot of consistency, though.  I've
    never claimed that Smith never has choked, or never has underachieved. 
    And in the same vein, I also see the duplicity of the claims that he
    isn't a great coach, that he always underachieves and never
    overachieves, that when UNC wins, it's because of superior talent, and
    when they lose it's bad coaching.  A little consistency would demand
    the same high-minded examinations of his criticisms along with the
    litany of refutations of his successes.
    
    Dan
    
    
17.697CHIEFF::MACNEALruck `n' rollFri Mar 22 1991 17:3011
17.698RDOVAX::BRAKEA Question of BalanceFri Mar 22 1991 17:425
    Yeah, Mac, isn't there also a move to change the Mass Turnpike logo?
    The one with arrow sticking through the pilgrim hat?
    
    Rich
    
17.699CHIEFF::MACNEALruck `n' rollFri Mar 22 1991 17:444
17.700That's not the reason they changed it but...METS::DERRYFri Mar 22 1991 18:057
17.701QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Fri Mar 22 1991 18:0710
There's always the distinct possibility that THE SCHOOL wants to change
the name.

Remember the flap over the planet Uranus?
	Should it be prounced urine us
                         or  your anus?

Might be the same kind of thing, hey?

Mike JN
17.702CAM::WAYSame old, same old, Jimmy Rain...Fri Mar 22 1991 18:0813
>	I think so, too.  It seems some out-of-staters actually thought that
>        the direction the arrow was pointing meant something.  Go figure.

Couldn't have been anyone from CT.  We just jump on their and
speed our little hearts out, thankful for Mass not having a
commie radar dectector law.

We don't give a shit which way we go, just as long as we go fast!


8^)

'Saw
17.703From the other guy's point of view...NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Mar 22 1991 18:4115
    I'll assume that most of the people pissing and moaning are Native
    Americans.  To the extent that Native Americans are barely 
    represented, if at all, by those who would honor their name (but who 
    to them are the same people who drove them away), I can see their 
    point.  I can respect their judgement on the use of the name of their
    race. 
    
    Bitter, misdirected, even irrational?  Maybe, but if ever there was
    justification this is it.  I used to live in Oklahoma.  Lotta sad
    stories in the monuments and museums of a state that was absolutely,
    positively supposed to be the last refuge...
    
    glenn
    
17.704NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Mar 22 1991 18:4510
    
    > A little consistency would demand
    > the same high-minded examinations of his criticisms along with the
    > litany of refutations of his successes.
      
    Does this mean you're coming clean on the Red Sox, Dan?  Congrats!  ;-)
    
    glenn
                                     
                                 
17.705MCIS1::DHAMELKill me with Cadbury Cream EggsFri Mar 22 1991 18:5210
    
    Didn't the Washington Senators move out because the legislative
    senators were offended by having their name used by a lousy baseball
    team?  Or was it the baseball team that was embarrassed by the
    legislators?
    
    BTW, Lake Superior was named after me.
    
    Dickstah
    
17.706Ethnic team namesCOGITO::HILLFri Mar 22 1991 19:0217
    RE: "Ethnic" sports names
    
    I did a little work with Northeastern University's Center for Sports in
    Society (run by former Celtic Tom Sanders) when I was in college, and I
    remember a poster someone had hung up on a wall. It had pictures of
    pennants of various teams, with the same colors and designs, ecxept for
    some slight changes. The "Kansas City Jews" had little Stars of Davis
    atop the crown in the Royals' logo, and I think there were some hebrew
    characters as well. The "Pittsburgh Negroes" had the Purdue Boilermaker
    mascot, but he was brown and had a big white-teethed grin. There were a
    couple others, but you get the idea.
    
    At the bottom, there was a real Cleveland Indians pennant, with Chief
    Wahoo's white smile on a bright red backdrop of his "skin". It makes
    you think a little bit, eh? 
    
    Tom
17.707Go Fighting Ukies!!!SHALOT::MEDVIDwild but not lostFri Mar 22 1991 19:106
    Not meaning to be insensative, but I'd love it if someone were the 
    Fighting Ukrainians.  I think it would do more good than harm.  
    
    	--dan'l
    
    
17.708I don't care if it was fiction, it still hurtSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsFri Mar 22 1991 19:136
 And if you really want to see the Indian point of view, go see "Dances
 With Wolves".
 
 Made me ashamed to be Caucasian.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.709Just don't let Bobby Vinton sing the anthem again, though...NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Mar 22 1991 19:1511
    
    > Not meaning to be insensative, but I'd love it if someone were the 
    > Fighting Ukrainians.  I think it would do more good than harm.  
    
    And I wouldn't mind the Hunkerin' Hunkies... probably be a good rugby
    nickname.  I guess it's best left to the representative group to 
    decide if they're offended...
    
    glenn
    
    
17.710LEAF::MCCULLOUGHLindsey is walking!!Fri Mar 22 1991 20:0010
Seems to me it's a little more complicated than that.

To call a team the Hurons, Apaches, etc. is not bad in and of itself.  The 
problem occurs with the way you portray the name.  Prime case - the 
Atlanta Braves.  The mascot is a blood thirsty looking, warlike "Indian".
This does nothing for Native American's image, and only demoralizes them.  I 
don't know of many teams which lend dignity to the image.

=Bob=
North Quincy Red Raiders class of '75
17.711QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Fri Mar 22 1991 20:599
Yeah... and look at the grief the poor Scandinavians must be going
through with the way they are portrayed as bloodthirsty, barbarian,
Vikings.

Makes me feel horrible. 

Like I been et by a wolf and shit over a cliff.

Mike JN
17.712Carolina waltzes to IndySHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsMon Mar 25 1991 13:0522
 Does anyone need any *more* reasons to hate the Tar Heels ???   
 
 I mean *only* North Carolina can get such a cake ride to the Final Four.  
 Way to go, Heels.   Whip up on the 16th seed, the 9th seed, the 12th seed,
 and then squeak by the 10th seed and cut down the nets.    Unbelievable.
 
 And you know what ???   I'm sure they felt they were the underdog in each
 and every one of those four games.   A heroic struggle against uphill odds
 all the way led by Michel-dean-jello himself.
 
 Wouldn't it be deliciously ironic if Roy Williams (the pupil) whipped up
 on Snuffy (the mentor) ???   Oooh, that would be nice.    I can hear
 Williams now ... 
 
 "I didn't want to embarass Coach (I can't call him 'Dean') Smith that
 badly but our 100-63 win to put us into the championship game is very
 satisfying."
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.   Nice job once again, Big Ten.   Two years running and no Final
 Four.  Whatta conference.
17.713No doubt about the best conferencePENSAR::LAZARUSDavid Lazarus @KYO,323-4353Mon Mar 25 1991 13:1910
    re: -1 
    
    Bob,you can also add the Big East to conferences that have had no final
    four teams the last two years. It's tough to get in there with all
    those ACC teams and UNLV. (-:   
    
    The ACC's 3-0 record vs the Big East in the NCAA tourney effectively
    negated the 6-2 Big East whipping in the beginning of the season tourney.
    
    
17.714CAM::WAYProps have great shoulders to lean onMon Mar 25 1991 13:269
This just in:

	The Gaspipe has been put in place in the HoosierDome.
	It'll be right near Snuffy's chair on the UNC bench.

	Film @ 11.....


'Saw
17.715Big East gone but went down fighting; Big Ten just goneSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsMon Mar 25 1991 13:4931
17.716the most undeserving ride ever ...CHIEFF::CHILDSBaseball = Hi-Bore-Nation Season ;^(Mon Mar 25 1991 13:5311
 Goal tending, phatom foul on Rice with time runnng out unbelievable....
 the choke was there but Snuffy's buddies bailed him out....

 what an ass he is, where was the technical friday nite when he walked out on
 the court to point out the East Michigan player. "see him ref he's the one
 pushing"...

 yesterday helping them with the goal tending call...

 mike
17.717Credit where due...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Mar 25 1991 14:0127
    
    No question about it, the Big Ten demonstrated that it was very weak
    this year.  Indiana and Ohio State dominated the conference and posted
    great records, but apparently much of that was due to the quality of 
    the teams below them.  But isn't that what MrT was telling us from the 
    first tip-off?
    
    I thought that the Big 8 was as weak as they've been in the last ten
    years, what with the likes of Nebraska and Oklahoma State joining the
    regulars at the top, but they really weren't too bad at all.  I think
    Kansas may have to be recognized as the overachieving school of the 
    last five years, and I thought Missouri was as good as any of the 
    three Big 8 teams that made the tourney, and they're sitting at home 
    due to probation.  The Big 8 has nothing to be ashamed of on the court 
    (their recent history for cheating is another matter).  
    
    Even with the favorable ride, I'll give Carolina credit.  They were
    supposed to make the Final Four, and they did it.  Anything else,
    including a victory over Kansas, is gravy in a season where they
    unveiled all that young talent for the first time.  Leave it to the 
    legacy of the one they call Dean to come through in a year where UNLV 
    is so clearly superior, I suppose (don't get me wrong, if Carolina goes 
    up against UNLV, I'll have to become a Dean backer-- no way I'm rooting
    for any team that has Tarkanian behind it...)
    
    glenn
     
17.718SACT41::ROSSDamon Bailey - the anti-HurleyMon Mar 25 1991 14:039
Also notice that UNC's "deep" bench was nowhere to be seen in a close game.
The starting five all played 30+ minutes, with Montross @15 minutes {with a 
single point and 2 boards} being the 6th man.  The bench played 44 minutes
total with 3/9 fg 1/2 ft 6 reb and 1 assist.   Foul trouble will end the 
Tar Heels run very easily.
                                               
Hubert Davis has certainly come into his own during the tournament.  He and
Lynch will be the core of next year's team... they'll be hard pressed to 
make the Sweet 16 in '92.
17.719RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOKenya Roools againMon Mar 25 1991 14:1015
    The Vegas fans were looking forward to a rematch with Duke.  They
    figure they'll simply shock them again, just like last year.  Hurley
    will get eaten alive again.  The Vegas fans only fear: the refs - they
    figure Coach K and Dean always get the call.
    
    I think Duke will lose by at least 10.  ANd if Tark and the boys meet
    Dean, I'll be hoping for the Rebels to blast the living hell out of
    KIng Rice and the aggravated assault boys from Chapel Hill.  I'd
    just love to see ol' Snuffy a whining to the Refs with his team down
    big.
    
    I like what was said about Dean - wonder what he'd do with a team
    without all that talent?   He'd be home now, that's for sure.
    
    JD
17.720The pressure is finally off the HeelsPENSAR::LAZARUSDavid Lazarus @KYO,323-4353Mon Mar 25 1991 14:1212
    re: last two
    
    I agree with you,Glenn,about UNC. They have been in a no-win situation
    until now. With the pressure off,they should do well against a very
    tough Kansas team which had to have peaked against Indiana and
    Arkansas.
    
    While it is true,that the three seniors were the key to the victory
    yesterday,the freshamn should step up next year as regulars. Montross
    does not impress me at all when he has faced a decent opposing big man.
    He will have to improve if they are to go anywhere next year. Is snuffy
    adding any recruits to his returning bunch?
17.721Smack 'imSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsMon Mar 25 1991 14:3311
 Snuff's signed one recruit, Donald Williams, some top-notch shooting
 guard.   After last season's haul, I don't think he has that many
 scholarships left so I'm not sure how many more players he'll sign.
 
 Speaking of Carolina's bench, I'd like to smack that little junior high
 twerp wearing the cheap K-Mart suit with the clip-on tie at the very end
 of the Heels bench who couldn't sit still for even the most routine free
 throw or traveling call.  Hey, Skippy, sit down and quit yer damn yappin'
 and arm pumpin' and pissin' and moanin', willya ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.722RAVEN1::B_ADAMSThe lady is 2 tough 2 tame!Mon Mar 25 1991 14:419
    
    	I think Coach K is a better loser than Smif! At least last year
    when Duke got blown out, he gave the L.V boys some credit..didn't blame
    it on the ref's...
    
    	I do however think this game may be a little closer than last year.
    Like someone said,,,5-10 points...
    
    B.A.
17.723UNC's spot in Indy is just as good as the other 3BSS::JCOTANCHColorado Football: #1 for 1990Mon Mar 25 1991 14:5017
 
>  I mean *only* North Carolina can get such a cake ride to the Final Four.  
>  Way to go, Heels.   Whip up on the 16th seed, the 9th seed, the 12th seed,
>  and then squeak by the 10th seed and cut down the nets.    Unbelievable.
 
    True, UNC didn't beat any highly ranked teams, but you can't blame the
    Heels.  Kansas had some breaks the year they won the title, with a hot
    NC State team getting knocked out by Murray state and Purdue getting
    upset by K-State.  Arkansas had some good fortune last year with
    Georgetown and Oklahoma losing in the 2nd round.  It's not UNC's fault
    that Syracuse, OSU, Mississippi State, or UCLA all got beat before
    their time.  It's all part of the tournament.  It doesn't matter if you 
    beat a 2 seed and a 4 seed, or if you beat nothing higher than a 9 seed
    as UNC did, a trip to the Final Four is all that matters.
    
    Joe
    
17.724SET/MODE=OBJECTIVELUNER::BROOKSPick up the pace ....Mon Mar 25 1991 15:2144
    This is unbelievable.
    
    Yesterday, there was one hell of a good game on. UNC and Temple. Temple
    came in allegedly a one man team, and Mark Macon damned near shot his
    team into the Final Four. He was transcendant on Sunday - fallaways
    from 20 feet, turnarounds off the dribble, a rebound here, a steal
    there ... and then his teammates came on in the 2nd half. Number 3
    (Karstophas ?) hit some big shots, Strickland and Kilgore did some
    damage, and they stuck close to UNC the whole game. 
    
    As for Hodge, the boy eats mucho quiche, but he's got the makings of a
    really good big man, he didn't quit in the 2nd half at all. I see how
    Chaney feels (in that this team may be more talented than the 32-3 team
    of '88) ...
    
    While we're at it, let's give a lot of credit to Chaney, who made some
    nice adjustments, and called TO's at the right times. Temple, despite
    going with 7 men, stayed pretty fresh throughout.
    
    Yet, for all of this NC stayed in control. Yes, there was some weak
    fouls, but I saw one or two go the other way as well. And Rice nailed
    some huge free throws down the stretch to give the Heels a cushion.
    
    This was a good game, a well-played game. 
    
    And I was rooting for Temple too, but what do I see in this file ? 
    
    Not one mention of the game, just a lot of whining about UNC.
    Give them their due, please !
    
    And hey, Lord knows I like to bash, but to take away from the
    performance of both teams in general, and Macon's in particular, well
    let's say this is a big waste.
    
    Doc
    
    p.s. I watched Smith's face as Macon's three came up just short.He
    wasn't happy - at first .
    
    That was a look of pure relief. Relief that the hounds would be all
    over him this year.
    
    That is one hell of a lot of pressure to live under. I'm not a Tar Heel
    supporter, and certainly not a Smif man, but this insane ....
17.725More ...SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsMon Mar 25 1991 15:2617
 I didn't say it was Carolina's *fault* they got such an easy ride.   Just
 that it was typical Carolina good fortune.   As if they don't get enough
 of it already.
 
 A "normal" ride for a top-seed into the Final Four is to play their first
 game against No. 16, second game against No. 8, third against No. 4, and
 finally the fourth game against the 2nd seed.    Carolina played the 16th
 seed and then each game after that was against a team (Villaova, Eastern
 Michigan, and Temple) that had upset its way to that point.
 
 Some people have all the good luck.   This tournament run by Carolina is
 shaping up to become one of the all-time best chapters in the "Lost Cause"
 book.  If they go down big time to Vegas in the championship game, it'll
 be Dean-David against Tark-Goliath and the faithful will be oh-so-proud of
 their hero's excellent loss.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.726AXIS::ROBICHAUDBuckle Up Wade!Mon Mar 25 1991 15:334
    	HaHa!  Doc you slay me.  You putting SET/MODE=OBJECTIVE is like
    the Massachusetts Legislature calling for a tax rollback! HaHa!!
    
    				/Don
17.727LUNER::BROOKSPick up the pace ....Mon Mar 25 1991 15:396
    NO /Don, it's like you chucking the Dockers and polyester look for some
    cool, classy wool blends like me !
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!
    
    Doc
17.728Carolina "due" for what ???SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsMon Mar 25 1991 15:4727
 Hey, Doc, chill, dude.   Of course, it was a good game from a competitive
 standpoint.   Zestfully bashing North Carolina doesn't detract from that
 reality one bit.   It doesn't make Macon's game any less spectacular and
 it doesn't make Carolina's survival any less complete.
 
 What "due" shall we give to Carolina ???   Shall we give them credit for
 needing four free throws in the final seconds of the game to eke out a win
 over a 10-point underdog ???    In Las Vegas sports books yesterday,
 Temple *won* this game.   What is Carolina's "due" for that ???
 
 Shall we give them credit for surviving four games all against teams
 seeded in the bottom half of the region ???   What is the Tar Heels' "due"
 for that ???    Sure, Smith was relieved at the end there.   You could
 almost hear him say "Thank God I didn't blow this one."
 
 Dean Smith can take a little heat because he's dished out enough of it.  I
 listened to the Carolina radio station post-game show yesterday.  You
 would have a hard time believing just how much time Smith wasted bitching
 and moaning about King Rice's omission from the All-Region team.   No
 platitudes for Macon, no nice words for Chaney, nope, just a lot of
 wastful belly-aching about the media ignoring his chick-slapper.
 
 Nexted time you get some vacation time, Doc, book a trip to this here neck
 o' the woods.   I guarantee you a good time and a very valuable lesson in
 local propaganda Smif'-style.   It is truly something to be seen.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.729UNC Earned ItWMOIS::REEVE_CMon Mar 25 1991 15:5015
    re- .725 "if they go down bigtime to Vegas"
    
    What will you say if they beat Kansas and then UNLV? Will you say that
    Dean took a youthful team and overachieved his way to the Championship?
    Or that the refs cheated or that UNLV had a bad day?
    
    What if Duke beats UNLV and UNC beats Duke? Then will it be a fluke
    that UNC won because everyone lost?
    
    I'm not a UNC fan, but cut the guy some slack. He (they) got to the
    Final Four by winning basketball games, not by always having the other
    team lose or help from refs or whatever. Besides, March Madness should
    be about the teams and the players, not about the coaches.
    
    Chris
17.730AXIS::ROBICHAUDBuckle Up Wade!Mon Mar 25 1991 15:5413
================================================================================
Note 17.727                 Atlantic Coast Conference                 727 of 729
LUNER::BROOKS "Pick up the pace ...."                 6 lines  25-MAR-1991 12:39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    NO /Don, it's like you chucking the Dockers and polyester look for some
    cool, classy wool blends like me !
    
    BAABAABAABAABAA!!!!!!!!
    
    Doc

	Sorry Doc, I ain't into sheep!
17.731What's good for the goose...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Mar 25 1991 16:017
    I recall no such magnanimity from Doc towards Bob Knight even though
    Kansas played a magnificent team game that night and then duplicated 
    the effort against his Razorbacks...
    
    glenn
    
17.732DECWET::METZGEROh No, I've said too much...Mon Mar 25 1991 16:5920
Of all things this should squelch the "duke always gets the easy ride to
the final four through the east" blather that we've been hearing for 4 years.

It was an excellent game. Without Macon Temple would have been toast. He pulled
them back from an early deficit. 

Although I disagree totally with Chaney's educational views, he is a very good
coach. UNC - Kansas should be a great game. 

I expect UNLV to sweep the floor the final two games no matter who they play
against. Hurley will be picked clean by the UNLV backcourt. 

THis is one time snuffy won't be underachieving if he loses the final game. I'd
say he's taken this team as far as it's talent level. If he would have lost 
before reaching the final 4 then i'd say otherwise but he reached it, even if 
the competition got knocked for him. 


Metz
17.733More ...SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsMon Mar 25 1991 17:2624
17.7347221::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Mon Mar 25 1991 18:0810
    Re:  a few back
    
    Not just at March Madness time, but all the time, should the emphasis
    be on the players and the teams, not on the coaches.  It's not Dean
    Smith vs Roy Williams, it's North Carolina vs Kansas.
    
    The role of the coach in college hoops is way, Way, *WAY*
    overemphasized.
    
    John
17.735Badly worder but I hope it gets my point acrossDECWET::METZGEROh No, I've said too much...Mon Mar 25 1991 18:3030
I wouldn't say the the reverend choked if he loses to Kansas. With the talent
Snuffy has he should have reached the final 4 this year. He should go into the
game against Kansas as the favorite. However I recognise that a team can get 
red hot and beat a better team. 

I will acknowledge a trend in the past of having a UNC team consistantly lose
to a lower ranked team in the tourney however I give this Kansas team a 50-50
shot of knocking off UNC simply because of the way they are playing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you look at his 33 year record in the
tourney you see consistant under achievement. There is no denying that he has
had teams with NBA all-stars on them and managed to squander away victory. No
way do I subscribe to Crisp's theory that UNC has run into unstopable teams
every time they've lost but this may be one of the times that they're playing
a team that is playing above itself.

An average coach would be able to balance it all out. (the number of times you
underachieved = the number of times you've overachieved). A good coach would
turn the tide in his favor ( # of over achieves > # of underachieves). I doubt
any coach could have a 100% overachieve rate. 

I'm not saying that Snuffy is a good coach. I'm trying to say that a loss to
Kansas may not be underachieving in this game. If UNC plays a good game and gets
beat I wouldn't call it an underachieve. If they play below their talent level 
or Snuffy coaches them into a loss then I'll be happy to call it another in
his string of underachievements.....

Metz
 
17.736John's RightRDOVAX::BRAKEA Question of BalanceMon Mar 25 1991 18:3328
    re .734
    
    I couldn't agree more, John. But, when you think about all the
    championship games that are played, consider that TV coverage of the
    coaches almost equals the play on the field/court. 
    
    Think about it...how many times did we see Parcells and Levy in the
    Super Bowl? How many times did the camera zoom in on Thompson and
    Tarkanian? How much game time was devoted to LaRussa and Piniella in
    the World Series?
    
    Think about it. Man at bat, camera catches manager spitting, batter
    swings, camera swings to dugout to nab manager as manager scratches
    while following ball trajectory. Camera snaps to ball going over fence,
    quickly switches to dejected pitcher, scans batter as he rounds thrid
    and then dwells on pitcher's manager chewing intently in tobacco. Then
    finally, a closeup of batter's manager congratulating batter.
    
    Ditto in football and basketball. Television is responsible for this
    emphasis. Television makes us all aware of Tarkanian chewing on a
    towel. That's where the change has to occur to change the focus.
    
    It is NOT Tarkanian versus Coach K. It IS UNLV versus Duke. Loud
    mouthed self serving TV analysts need to refer to a singular person
    because their minds are too simplistic to deal with a team of players.
    
    Rich
    
17.738MAXWEL::CHILDSBaseball = Hi-Bore-Nation Season ;^(Mon Mar 25 1991 19:1114
 While I agree it is the kids who play the game that deserve the credit, the
 bottom line is the coach is the one constant on a college team. Players change
 every year. Some stay 4 some less it's not like the pros where the players
 play 10 years and the coach coaches for two years. So a coach deserves credit
 for maintaining a winning program and also because of the differences in the
 rules (45 second clock, zone defense and shorter 3 point line) the coach is
 called upon to make more adjustment than a pro coach who just rolls the ball
 out there...


 I'd say the coach is atleast 50% of the equation in college....

 mike
17.739Willya keep the propoganda flowing?VAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitMon Mar 25 1991 19:1510
 >This tournament run by Carolina is
 >shaping up to become one of the all-time best chapters in the "Lost Cause"
 >book.  If they go down big time to Vegas in the championship game, it'll
 >be Dean-David against Tark-Goliath and the faithful will be oh-so-proud of
 >their hero's excellent loss.          
    
    It may be so, Bob.  If so, can I count on you to amplify the spin
    control and turn it into historic underachievement by Dean?
    
    Dan
17.740It's tres chic to BLAM DeanVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitMon Mar 25 1991 19:246
    >          -< Is Dean Smith in a no-win in the public's eye? >-
    
    Hawkster, that question's been answered about 1000 times in the last
    few years in Sports notes.
    
    Dan
17.741RDOVAX::BRAKEA Question of BalanceMon Mar 25 1991 19:2613
    I hear what your saying Mike, but it is the same in every sport. How
    much camera time was spent on Riley and Daley in last years' NBA
    playoffs? It's ridiculous. At that stage, you just give them the ball
    and let 'em play. 
    
    I don't mean to underplay the importance of coaching. But, when it
    comes to championship games, the fans want to see Lawrence Taylor and
    Jim Kelly and Thurman Thomas and Jeff Hostetler - not Marv Levy and
    Bill Parcells.
    
    Rich
    
    
17.742First time in the Final 4 in nearly a decade; opportunity squandered...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Mar 25 1991 19:2812
    
    >>          -< Is Dean Smith in a no-win in the public's eye? >-
    
    > Hawkster, that question's been answered about 1000 times in the last
    > few years in Sports notes.
    
    Dan, ACChris entrusted you to defend poor Dean in his absence.  I'm
    very disappointed in your effort, to say the least...
    
    glenn
    
    
17.743Hope Dean Has a Good GameRDOVAX::BRAKEA Question of BalanceMon Mar 25 1991 19:316
    I'll be real interested to see how Dean Smith goes one on one with
    Stacey Augman. Does anyone think Dean Smith can guard Larry Jackson
    down low? How's Dean Smith been shooting from 3-point land?
    
    Rich
    
17.744RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOKenya Roools againMon Mar 25 1991 19:3516
    Hawk (and Dan),
    
    No, if Dean loses to UNLV in the finals, it isn't a choke.  UNLV will
    be favored.  So Dan, wrong once again.
    
    Dean has a fantastic five freshman on his team this year.  He has
    talent out the ying-yang.  If he doesn't win in the nexted 4 years,
    he's proving his underachievement.  I doubt Dean could have the Kansas
    team in the Final Four.  He wouldn't know how to coach a team taht
    isn't comprised of high school all-americans from one end of the bench
    to another.
    
    Look at what he did to the great teams of the early 80's.  Nothing. 
    More talent that UNLV has right now, and nothing.
    
    JD
17.745UNC doesn't have a center ...EARRTH::BROOKSPick up the pace ....Mon Mar 25 1991 20:087
    Yo JD, 
    
    I don't know about a fantastic five. Montross looks like the next Greg
    Kite if you ask me. I was more impressed by Bradley of BYU.
    
    How about a fantatsic four (apologies to Marvel comics) and The Thing ?
    :-) :-)
17.746DJ: Predictably ridiculously biasedVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitMon Mar 25 1991 20:129
    >Look at what he did to the great teams of the early 80's.  Nothing. 
    >More talent that UNLV has right now, and nothing.
    
    I'm not a walking record book when it comes to college basketball, but
    I seem to remember the National Title in 1982.  More talent than UNLV
    right now?  Debatable, nor was it as together in age.  Remember, Worthy
    left after his junior season and Michael was only a frosh then.
    
    Dan
17.747STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishTue Mar 26 1991 11:1612
    Dan,
    
    The 84' team is considered the greatest Carolina team of all time(a
    team stocked with future pros.)  And don't use the excuse about Kenny
    Smith playing with a cast because I have proof to refute that this was
    even an issue(saving it for ACChris).  They steamrolled through the
    competition that year until they ran into an IU team led by the General
    and a guard named Dan Dakich.
    
    This was Dean's greatest underachievement of his career...
    
    Cap
17.748STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishTue Mar 26 1991 11:172
    Read somewhere that presently at NC, every player on their team is a
    HS All-American.  Nice talent base to work from, don't you think??
17.749N.C. All the way...BUILD::MORGANTue Mar 26 1991 12:095
    Damn, with the never ending bashing of Dean Smith that goes on in
    here, I'm beginning to root for the guy.  A couple of years ago it was
    funny, but now it's pretty much out of control!
    
    					Steve
17.750Equal balanceSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsTue Mar 26 1991 12:248
 The "never ending bashing" of Dean Smith is nothing more than a balance to
 counter the equally perpetual idol worship of this charlatan across the
 entire college basketball world.
 
 I've never seen someone praised so highly by so many for so long for doing
 so little with so much.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.751EARRTH::BROOKSPick up the pace ....Tue Mar 26 1991 12:379
    re .750
    
    Bob, if Keith Smart's jumper had been a tad off-line, we could say
    something reasonably simular about Knight.
    
    BTW, given the waxing he took at the hands of a Dean Smif disciple, one
    would think that the IU contingent would be silenced, or at least
    slowed .... but nooooooo ....... it is funny. I'm starting to feel like
    Steve ....
17.752Et tu, Doc ???SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsTue Mar 26 1991 12:5325
17.753RDOVAX::BRAKEA Question of BalanceTue Mar 26 1991 12:5519
    I'm with Steve on this. I'm going to root for UNC. 
    
    Bob, since you are now working in the Carolinas (?) and you went to a
    rival ACC school, perhaps you are a bit slanted in your belief that
    Smith is an icon around the rest of the country. I've always thought of
    him as a low key guy. Not the loud mouthed type like Valvano or Knight.
    Perhaps he is truly an icon in Carolina but that is regional - not
    national.
    
    Heck, I am now receiving radio shows with Jeff Jones from UVa here in
    Richmond. Before him, Terry Holland was adored here. 
    
    Smith reminds me a bit of Walt Alston. Quiet with alot of success and a
    nose for talent. Plus, the university must have something going for it
    if can attract all those HS All Americans away from Duke, NCState and
    Wake Forest.
    
    Rich
    
17.754Reporting *LIVE*, from Bedford MARHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Mar 26 1991 12:5570
Congrats Dean!  Congrats Carolina!  We're Indianapolis bound, and I for
one am a very happy fan.

A few ramblings and thoughts:

o The win over Temple easily took a few years off my life span.  Very
  stressful, to say the least.  At the end it looked like the cruel 
  hand of fate had dealt us another losing hand, but King Rice proved
  to have ice water in his veins and Mark Macon (finally) proved to
  be human.  

o John Chaney *looks* like an Owl.  And speaking of Chaney, what's he
  got against Dean anyways?  First he takes a crack at his coaching
  ("I'd like to see him do it with less") then takes a passing shot
  by stating that Kansas executes Deans system better than Dean does.
  Give us a break John.

o Dan'l owes me $1.

o Anybody catch CBS' powder-puff handling of UNLV during their "round
  table" discussion?  Gimmee a frockin' break.  Poor Jerry.  Poor Jerry's
  kids.  Bad NCAA.  VERY BAD NCAA.  Sniff, sniff, sniff.  Boo hoo hoo.

o Dean has predicted UNLV will get beat, which in my mind is an attempt
  on his part to psychologically make them appear mortal.  They're not,
  of course, but could try anyways Deano!

o New England weather *stinks*.  (Cold, rainy, gross.  Meanwhile it's
  80+ degrees in Hotlanta ...)

o John Feinstein is at it again.  On NPR yesterday he sez he never questioned
  Dean's coaching, only his "whining".  Can *anybody* remember a more
  utterly feeble and weak sports commentary?

  Then in The National yesterday he takes pot shots at Roy Williams cause he
  still calls Dean "Coach Smith", the subtle message being things like
  respect and loyalty are outdated and laughable.  Go back to Duke, ya
  Nerdy publicity hunter.

o I hope this has been brought up already, but Indiana got blown out by
  one of the least athletic teams in the NCAA Tournament.  Haw haw haw!!
  (Dean Disciple, too!  Many more haw haw's ...!!!!!11111)

o Congrats to the Nerds for an unbelievable fourth straight trip to 
  the F4, and fifth in six years.  Tremendous accomplishments that's 
  really unparalleled in the modern era.

  The media will unfairly blast CoachK cause he'll come away without
  a Title again, but I won't be too hard on 'em.  (Sympathy for Duke
  is something I don't think I'm capable of ...)

o KU vs. UNC.  Dean vs. Williams.  Enough has been written already and
  tons more will be.  All I know is when Dean goes that job is Roy's
  to lose.

  *IF* we're lucky enough to beat the J-hawks, a Carolina vs. UNLV
  matchup will not be a pretty thing.  Lynch on Johnson?  Ugh.  King
  Rice trying to stay with Anthony?  Yea, right.  Hubie Davis staying
  with Hunt?  In my dreams, maybe.  And  of course they've got their
  best defensive player (Augman) aligned on our best offensive one (Fox).

  No folks, the only chance we'd have is if Dean pulls a miracle outa his bag,
  which is something he just might be able to do.  He absolutely *loves*
  being a heavy underdog and, IMNSHO, will find a way to somehow keep
  us in the game.  (All assuming we beat Kansas, a team playing unbelievably
  will right now ...)

  
- ACC Chris
    
17.755CAM::WAYProps have great shoulders to lean onTue Mar 26 1991 13:011
Chris, take a ridalyn!
17.756As usual, the other coach is always a jerkNAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Mar 26 1991 13:1117
    
> o John Chaney *looks* like an Owl.  And speaking of Chaney, what's he
>   got against Dean anyways?  First he takes a crack at his coaching
>   ("I'd like to see him do it with less") then takes a passing shot
>   by stating that Kansas executes Deans system better than Dean does.
>   Give us a break John.
    
    Yeah, well I heard Dean in the pre-game press conference commenting
    that he felt Macon would *have* to be thinking about his previous
    Meadowlands performance (instead of dismissing it outright when the
    subject was broached), which I didn't think was real classy and turned
    out to be a complete load of crap.  So it appears that we got a little
    psychological coaching warfare going on.  Would we have it any other
    way?
    
    glenn
    
17.757EARRTH::BROOKSPick up the pace ....Tue Mar 26 1991 13:129
    re .754
    
    Chirs, Dean made the stupid comment that he wanted to see which Macon
    showed up (a not-so-nice reference to the Duke game 3 years ago) - or 
    words to that effect .... Chaney is protective of his players, and esp. 
    Macon. Which may explain why Chaney had it in for Dean.
    
    And I was rooting for Macon to cream the Heels ... no mind,  the Rebs
    will ...
17.758misplaced sympathies, next you'll feel sorry for the YankeesCHIEFF::CHILDSBaseball = Hi-Bore-Nation Season ;^(Tue Mar 26 1991 13:1424
Do you UNC sympathy lovers watch college basketball all year or just the
tournment? Seems like whenever an anaylist talks about coaching they wax
on and on about Snuffy? What has the man ever accomplished? He waste more
talent in a year then some coaches see in five. He refuse to adapt to game
situations because of his belief in his system which is wopping 1 for 30
in titles. He's a whinner, a crybaby and ass who for some reason beyond
me is above reproach by the refs. Do you think John Thompson or Tark or
Pitino or about 99% of the rest of the coaches could have walked on to the
floor like he did friday nite without drawing a T?

Training the end of the bench to jump up and argue every call for him?

If they face UNLV they have 11 guys to UNLV's 6 but feart not Snuffy will
screw up. 

I doubt that they'll get by Kansas anyways because KU is playing with more
emotion and desire than Snuffy could ever foster in his players cause you
don't need motivation just a system...

and don't tell me he don't laquer his woodie every night over them naming
that building after him...

mike
17.759I knew he wouldn't be able to stay out of here!SHALOT::MEDVIDwe were never being boringTue Mar 26 1991 13:1414
>o Dan'l owes me $1.
    
    Do you want that in small bills?
    
    Should have taken me up on that 13 point spread instead of even-up. 
    Seems I had more faith in the Heels against EMU than you did.  8-)
    
    And now we can add the "cruel hand of fate" to the list of bad refs,
    NCAA selection committee, media, etc.
    
    Congrats, bud.
    
    	--dan'l
    
17.760BSS::JCOTANCHColorado Football: #1 for 1990Tue Mar 26 1991 13:468
>  Anybody catch CBS' powder-puff handling of UNLV during their "round
>  table" discussion?  
    
    That round-table discussion is one of the dumbest things CBS has come up
    with yet. What a waste of friggin' air time.
    
    
17.761RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOKenya Roools againWed Mar 27 1991 14:4632
    Re Dan,
    
    Yep, I know UNC won in 82, but I still consider Dean's teams of the
    early 80's to be the biggest underachievers of all time.  Even in 82,
    playing a YOUNG Georgetown team, they needed a grevious error by a
    freshman to pull it out.  
    
    RE Chris on Chaney
    
    IF UNC had Temple's lineup, would Deano have taken them to the great 8? 
    I don't think so.  He wouldn't know what to do with them, except Macon
    wouldn't be allowed to shoot when he was hot...
    
    Re Doc
    
    What has Dean accomplished?  Every year he reloads with all-americans -
    yet whines and complains about not getting breaks.  Just read ACCHris'
    synopsis of Dean's failures (If only, we could, we shoulda, the other
    guys were hot, we got an injury, ad nauseum) to get a feel of Deanball
    (tm).
    
    He's protected by the refs.  His teams could win 20 games without a
    coach!  
    
    Doc, can you imagine what say, PJ Carlisimo could do with a team as
    talented as Dean has year in, year out!  What about Bob KNight?  IU
    would have to build an addition to their field house to fly the
    champeenship banners.   As for the Keith Smart shot - The syracuse team
    that Indiana beat was a pretty damn good one - and that same Syracuse
    team beat UNC in the tourney.  
    
    JD
17.762Critisize Dean: It's Chic. It's Happening. It's NowVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitWed Mar 27 1991 16:149
    >Yep, I know UNC won in 82, but I still consider Dean's teams of the
    >early 80's to be the biggest underachievers of all time.  Even in 82,
    >playing a YOUNG Georgetown team, they needed a grevious error by a
    >freshman to pull it out.  
    
    Hey Hawk, does this answer your question?  Even when Dean wins a title,
    The Clique has officially labeled it underachievement.
    
    Dan
17.763RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOKenya Roools againWed Mar 27 1991 17:1620
    Dan,  
    
    A title can't be an underachievement.  But I'd be seriously embarrassed
    if I was a Dean or a UNC fan to know that despite an amazing level of
    talent, my team only won *one* title, and that with the help of a huge
    mistake by a freshman, against a team that was very young.  
    
    And Dan, I've been criticizing Dean for years and years - way before
    Digital, as far back as I can remember.  What's his real claim to fame?
    The Four Corners!  The worst and most boring offense ever created.  A
    'strategy' employed by a coach who's afraid to lose, as opposed to
    wanting to win.   Sitting on the lead - the inability to go for the
    kill, the paralysis of being afraid to make a mistake - that's Dean and
    UNC basketball.  
    
    And Dan, some of my all-time favorite players played for UNC - so its
    not like I have a complete hatred of UNC - just Dean's system that
    wallows in self-depreciation and rewards failures.
    
    JD
17.764No, I think he underachieved in '82 alsoVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitWed Mar 27 1991 17:2511
    >...despite an amazing level of
    >talent, my team only won *one* title, and that with the help of a huge
    >mistake by a freshman, against a team that was very young.  
    
    Why don't we call a spade a spade and simply not recognize that measly
    little title.  Dean didn't coach it.  UNC didn't win it and they
    certainly didn't earn it.
    
    It really shouldn't count.
    
    Dan
17.765CHIEFF::CHILDSQualified Mentally for HP ParkingWed Mar 27 1991 17:2916
    
>    Why don't we call a spade a spade and simply not recognize that measly
>    little title.  Dean didn't coach it.  UNC didn't win it and they
>    certainly didn't earn it.
    
>    It really shouldn't count.
    
 
 Sounds good to me GEORGETOWN 1982 NCAA Champs...nice ring to it...

 ;^)

 got to admit it's much more fun with Chris. Dan just doesn't bring the
 passion that Chris does to the table....

 mike
17.766Think about it.SHALOT::MEDVIDwe were never being boringWed Mar 27 1991 17:348
    This just in:
    
    Polish President Lech Walesa admits to being Dean Smith's long lost
    twin brother.  When asked for further proof aside from the remarkable
    resemblance, Walesa said, "Now dat I'm prezeedent, I have as many
    titles as my brother."
    
    
17.767Dean bashing in, as are Heels in Final 4RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 27 1991 19:3033
I'm trying desperately to catch up on what has to be an unprecidented 
run of Dean bashing, and that, my friends, is *sayin'* something 
considering the incredible abuse the man has taken in here over the
years.

Given that I have limited time and *slow* network access it's hard to
decide which phenomenally weak argument I should chose to attack.
(I truly feel like_a kid in a candy store!)

We've got Doug Ross saying our bench stinks, despite the fact that
Montross was named Player of the Game against EMU.  Apparently he's
not aware that, against a team that slows tempo (Temple), a strong
bench is of minimal value.

We've got BobHunt spewing mountains of propaganda that are so laced
with jealousy and contempt that I can only shake my head (in disbelief),
sit back, and chuckle.  This is a man who will NEVER, *EVER*, be 
objective when it comes to Carolina.  To point out but one of his
many instances of bad logic though, consider that he admits UVa
underachieved in '81 against UNC, but won't admit
that, just maybe, we overachieved.   He also stated that Carolina NEVER
overachieves, despite the fact that it was only last year that we
knocked off the #1 ranked team in the USA (Oklahoma).  

No big deal.  As Dan correctly points out, it's never been more "in"
to pick on Dean and UNC.  It certainly won't keep me from enjoying 
a most satisfying season, which has been culminated by the fact that
we're playing against a coach who learned it all from Dean.  (JD, put
that one on your list of things Coach Smith has contributed, 'kay?!)


- ACC Chris
    
17.768Dug in hard and toughSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsWed Mar 27 1991 20:3343
17.769More choice gems ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 28 1991 10:4921
Here's a couple more choice comments made during the recent Dean-bashing
bloodletting:

o Mike Childs sez if UNC makes it to the finals against Vegas, Dean will
  find a way to lose.  

o BobHunt wonders why in the world Carolina hasn't run off Dean by now,
  citing (huh?) Buddy Ryan as a good example.  

o BobHunt critizes a noter for taking pride that the ACC has put two (2)
  teams in the Final 4 for two (2) straight years, cause Carolina's is
  tainted because of all the upsets that took place in the East region.

I can only pity the poor college hoops-knowledgeable fan who checks in here,
reads a few of these laughable and ridiculous comments, and then quickly
checks out cause obviously these folk aren't worth serious discussions
with.  


- ACC Chris
    
17.770In yo faceRIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOYou shop at K-Mart!!Thu Mar 28 1991 14:0337
    ACC Chris,
    
    So do you pity the 'knowledgeable' college hoops fan when they read
    your self-serving tripe over your idol, Dean the underachiever?
    
    Lets see:
    
    *  UNC loses games on purpose, so that Dean can teach his system.
    
    *  UNC doesn't underachieve - they get bad luck, by having injuries
    (boo hoo hoo); running into 'hot' teams (even though they have
    amazingly less talented athletes); is picked on by the big, bad media
    (booo hooo hoooo), ad nauseum.
    
    *  Dean's great cause his disciple, Williams is in the Final Four this
    year (meanwhile, Bob's disciple, Coach K., is in Every year - with less
    talent than Deanerino)
    
    *  Losses, year in, year out, in the tourney are okay
    (excellent_losses).
    
    *  One title in 30 years is pretty good....
    
    Chris, one fact you've never disputed is that year-in, year-out, Dean
    gets more all-american studs to add to his talented stable (in fack(TM)
    you absolutely *GUSH* over it).  However, you don't think its
    squandering talent when year-in, year-out, these studs walk away from
    the big dance with heads hung low, another excellent_loss under their
    belts.
    
    Now Chris, how's fault is it that all of this talent can never (except
    once, and then barely) be molded into a championship team?  I know in
    *YOUR* baby blue eyes its not Dean's fault - it's the big bad selection
    committee, the media, rotten luck - not thoroughly repeated mediocre
    coaching in the big show.
    
    JD
17.771More ...SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Mar 28 1991 14:1724
17.772a 'W' is a 'W'JURAN::MCKAYThu Mar 28 1991 14:465
    Can someone explain to me why "barely" winning the championship
    is any different than winning the championship.  It makes absolutely
    no difference.
    
    Jimbo
17.773RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOYou shop at K-Mart!!Thu Mar 28 1991 15:009
    Jimbo,
    
    You are right.  A champeenship is a champeenship.  All I'm saying in
    Demi-God Dean's case, despite the praise and adulation heeped upon him
    and his success - it comes down to being 1 for 30, and that one,
    despite having a NBA-level talent base - he almost managed to screw up
    - but was helped along by an errant pass by a freshman.
    
    JD
17.774DASXPS::TIMMONSI'm a Pepere!Thu Mar 28 1991 15:024
    Good point, Jimbo.  It reminds me that a_excellent loss equals a loss,
    period.  Either way, it's a game put in the "L" column.
    
    Lee
17.775DASXPS::TIMMONSI'm a Pepere!Thu Mar 28 1991 15:047
    Another point.
    
    I'm not a fan, nor a detractor, of the coach.  But, from what I read in
    here, his lack of coaching ability must be just about offset by his
    recruiting ability.
    
    Lee
17.776CAM::WAYProps have great shoulders to lean onThu Mar 28 1991 15:1517
So, if a W is a W (gosh, whatta concept), and a L is a L (oh the Zen
of it), then we can now say:

                                W	L    Pct
                               ---     ---   ---
	Snuffy's Record:	1	29   .033



Right?


Boy, the symmetric logic of this blows my mind......



'Saw
17.777RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOYou shop at K-Mart!!Thu Mar 28 1991 15:3412
    Or another way of putting it - Snuffy's teams have been in the Sweet 16
    for 11 straight years - something that keeps getting repeated.
    
    So, over the lasted 11 years, Snuffy's record in Sweet 16:
    
            W    L   
           --   --   
           1    10   
    
    No matter how ya cut it, it comes up purty bad.
    
    JD
17.778Still more ...SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Mar 28 1991 15:4132
 Well done, 'Saw and Lee, well done indeed.  However, I'm afraid this wont
 site very well with the Baby Blue Pee-Pee Smoochers (BBPPS) in God's own
 home town of Chapel Hill, Nawth Kay-ro-lynee, no suhree ...
 
 In Chapel Hill, Dean's record is 1 win and 29 other combinations of
 untimely injuries, insurmountable odds, hot teams, referees, bad seeds,
 emotionally overcharged teams, and so on ...   Try not to forget this.
 
 Here's a funny clip from an article this morning by the same BBPPS writer,
 Ron Green, who I blasted last week for that "Michelangleo" nonsense.   He
 still puckers up on Dean's woody but he does have a sense of humor so I'll
 cut him some slack for that ...
 
    "Prediction: The relationship between Dean Smith and former assistant
    Roy Williams comes apart as the game between Smith's Tar Heels and
    Williams' Jayhawks approaches.  Williams begins the unraveling by
    saying Kansas is the underdog.  Smith says that, in fact, the Tar Heels
    are.
    
    "Kansas," says Williams.
    
    "North Carolina," says Smith.
    
    "Look," says Smith.  "I was coaching when you were in grade school, and
    my team was the underdog then."
    
    "Well this town is big enough for only one underdog," says Williams. 
    "And that's us."
    
    Williams wins the argument.  North Carolina favored by 4 and a half.
    
 Bob Hunt
17.779CAM::WAYProps have great shoulders to lean onThu Mar 28 1991 15:4926
17.780Master MorT taught his students wellVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitThu Mar 28 1991 16:298
    >Can someone explain to me why "barely" winning the championship
    >is any different than winning the championship.  It makes absolutely
    >no difference.
    
    It's called propoganda.  You repeat the Big Lie enough and someone
    somewhere is gonna start believing it.
    
    Dan
17.781He does look like WalesaNEMAIL::LEARYMThu Mar 28 1991 16:308
    Hey,
    	Does all this mean that Smif and williams have dined and "whined"
    together.
    
    JMO
    
    MikeL
    
17.782Why don't you find something worthwhile to critisize?VAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitThu Mar 28 1991 16:3822
    >But, from what I read in
    >here, his lack of coaching ability must be just about offset by his
    >recruiting ability.                            
    
    To understand the truth, Lee, you have to do a lot more than read
    what's in here.  In here, the topic is dominated by an anti-Dean
    clique, a hot trendy formation that continually shrieks its propoganda
    from the highest hills.  The truth is we're talking about one of the
    best and most innovative coaches in college basketball history.  The
    truth is that he always has good talent, but in the post-Jordan years
    it was merely that: good talent and certainly not exceptional which is
    what you've been led to believe.  The truth is there have been plenty
    of teams with better talent through these years.
    
    When I see stats like 1-10 in the Sweet Sixteen being tossed around, I
    know the intellectual honesty of sports noters has plummeted to new
    depths.
    
    Dan
    
    
       
17.783Tom Greene still sleeps, breathes, and eats Tarhole BlueSHALOT::MEDVIDwe were never being boringThu Mar 28 1991 17:106
    Yo, Bob Hunt.  Tom Sorensen wrote today's Observer article, not Tom
    Greene.  So you can go back to your valid opinion about Greene.  I bet
    he even uses powder blue toilet paper...but then how would he be able
    to tell if he's wiped cleanly?  Think about it.
    
    	--dan'l
17.784the truth shall set you freeHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughThu Mar 28 1991 17:2115
>    To understand the truth, Lee, you have to do a lot more than read
>    what's in here.  

Including .782. 

The post-Jordan years (sic) included 4 1st round NBA draftees. 3 of them
played together for 4 years and failed to win even an ACC championship.
That's the truth. 

>    ... The truth is there have been plenty
>    of teams with better talent through these years.

That's an opinion. An unsupported one at that. 

TTom
17.785SACT41::ROSSScreendoor slams...Thu Mar 28 1991 17:3919
Just for the record, my problems with Dean Smith have nothing to do with his
wins and losses or his supposed "underachievement"... He's won too many games
to have any complaints about underachievement stick.  It's simply a distaste
for the style of his program... Why should seniors be special and freshmen
dogs?  Why do they all have to jump up and down like robots on the bench?  
Especially those dorks at the end of the bench...  Dean seems to take all the
fun out of the game for both himself and his players.... and he has become much
more of a nuisance on the sidelines than Bob Knight ever was... grubbing for
every call, whining about everything, stomping his feet.   Knight and Smith
have gone in exact opposite directions, personality-wise, in the past five
years. Bob has mellowed, especially toward his own players, while Dean has
become the cranky old guy down the street who yells at you for walking on his
lawn.  

Chris, if the UNC bench is so good, who's the 7th man after Montross?  Rodl?
Phelps?  Rozier?   How much value do they add?  The fact that Montross played
well in a blowout win over an undersized team and played lousy in nearly a
half of play in a tight game, regardless of the pace, means nothing to you?    
17.786JMOEARRTH::BROOKSPick up the pace ....Thu Mar 28 1991 17:4010
    Sorry fellows, but I don't think this UNC team is all that talented to
    me. Forget that High School All-America hype, because a lot of it is
    justthat - hype. How many H.S. A-A's make the NBA ? Or even become a
    college A-A ?
    
    UNC is talented, but not nearly as talented as people think. They
    didn't show me that much against Temple, and I know UNLV and at least
    three other schools in the tourny has/had as much talent as the Heels.
    
    Doc
17.787AXIS::ROBICHAUDUNC - AnotherExcellentLossPendingThu Mar 28 1991 17:458
17.789STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishThu Mar 28 1991 17:569
    
    Great quote from Doug Elstun who transferred from NC(even though
    ACChris says no one ever transfers away from Dean) to Kansas...
    
    "Coach Williams was the coach all the players went to.," Elstun said of
    his time at North Carolina.  "He was the PERSONABLE one, the one we all
    could talk to."
    
    
17.790STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishThu Mar 28 1991 17:5812
    Dan,
    
    It's funny hearing you talk about noter's intellectual honesty and
    propaganda when you used propaganda, half-truths, exaggerated stories
    and anything else you could think of to try and discredit Bobby Knight
    a few years ago.  I'm glad the tactics that you made so popular are
    coming back to bite you in the a$$......
    
    History does repeat itself....
    
    Cap :-)                  
    
17.791RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOYou shop at K-Mart!!Thu Mar 28 1991 18:5711
    Doc,
    
    Sorry, but no one stockpiles HS All-Americans like Dean does.  From one
    end of the bench to the other, Dean has talent that most of the other
    schools can only hope for.  And he gets em in droves.  He never has one
    of anything, like most schools do - he has 10 or 11 of em.  Contrast
    UNC with Temple, one end of the bench to the other, Doc.  Which team
    had more talent, one end to the other?  Is that hype Doc?  No, Doc,
    that's reality.  And its like that every year. 
    
    JD
17.792Dean achieves in Jan-Feb, gags in MarchSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Mar 28 1991 19:0426
 To respond to an excellent point Doug Ross made ... 
 
 The "underachiever" label that's stuck on Dean is confined to the NCAA
 Tournament only.  Very few people, if any, can argue with Smith's regular
 season record.   He's got over 700 total wins, fer cryin' out loud, and
 that takes lots and lots of talent over a long period of time.
 
 But in the NCAAs, he's like 41-25 or something like that.  Yes, he did
 indeed tie John Wooden for most career NCAA wins but Wooden had like,
 maybe, 8 or 10 tournament losses total.   Dean's NCAA winning percentage,
 while certainly better than 0%, is nowhere near his lifetime winning
 percentage.
 
 If it looks like a gaspipe, sounds like a gaspipe, and acts like a
 gaspipe, well, then what is it ???
 
 And, yes, I've watched for over 15 years now just what it means to be part
 of the basketball program at Carolina.   They've all got that bench
 refereeing choreography thing down to a science.   If you gave them all
 whistles, I'm sure they'd toot in harmony, too.   Dean stomps and they
 stomp.  He whines and they whine.   Their pregame and postgame quotes are
 all rehearsed.   They dress alike, talk alike, walk alike.    It's good
 old American systematic conformity at its boring best.   And they love him
 for it.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.793Some rules we only apply to DeanVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitThu Mar 28 1991 19:4415
 >Dean's NCAA winning percentage,
 >while certainly better than 0%, is nowhere near his lifetime winning
 >percentage.                               
    
    If we were to attempt to quantify the alleged "underachievement" could
    we safely say that in the tournement, since you have recently added
    that qualifier, if a coach is >.500, =.500, <.500 that it would
    describe his level of achievement?  
    
    Or do we sit with your latest: since his percentage isn't as good as
    Wooden's, it's underachievement?  Of course, this leaves almost every
    coach in history an underachiever, which I don't think is your
    intention.
    
    Dan
17.794RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOYou shop at K-Mart!!Thu Mar 28 1991 20:4426
    Dan,
    
    Dean is compared to Wooden - in number of wins in the tourney, in
    lifetime wins he's compared to the other greats - but in titles won,
    he's right there with John Thompson, Rollie Massimino, Jim Valvano,
    etc.
    
    Take it in that light, Dano - Dean, despite 30 years of talent laden
    team, despite a fantastic regular season record, despite runs in the
    tourney to the Sweet 16, can only muster up a single golden plum - and
    he has to share the limelight of the golden plum with many other
    coaches who haven't had his talent, his longevity, or, and this is the
    big one - THE CHANCES to win the golden plum.
    
    Compare Deano's teams with Worthy/Perkins/Jordan et al, to Thompson's
    teams with Ewing/Wingate/etc.   JT, despite his well-documented
    shortcomings as a coach, got his boys to the champeenship  game 3 times
    in 4 years with that bunch, and equaled Dean's career champeenship
    total of one.  
    
    If Dean were a general, he'd be dead, have no army, or be flying a desk
    in the nether regions - I mean c'mon  - 30 trips into battle, only one
    total victory, and lots of defeats.   And the sad part is, he isn't
    even a loveable loser.
    
    JD
17.795QEDSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Mar 28 1991 21:1937
17.796Mark Randall (KU) cover SI this week!STA201::MCNIELThu Mar 28 1991 22:2244
    ACC,
    
    You guy's are BRUTAL!  But, I just couldn't resist jumping in
    here and getting SHOT at.
    
    Dean Bashing? Get out of here.
    
    1. In 11 consecutive S16 appearances...I have yet to see Deano 
       take a jump shot.  
    
    2. Are you telling me that Deano is the Marty Shotenhiemer, Bud Grant,
       Dan Reeves of College basketball?  Isn't just getting to the Dance 
       (and everything else is "gift tax") good enough anymore?    
    
    2. Conformity maybe.  Dicipline is probably more appropriate.
       You can Conform your way out of business like UNISYS...or
       you can Dicipline your way to #1 like IBM.  And of course
       once your #1, everybody hates you.  Pride is one thing.
       Arrogance is another.    
    
       Personally, I cannot condone arrogence.  If the Tar Heels serve
       up a dish of "talk" prior to game time...it'll be the death
       of them.  Just ask Bob Knight, and Arkansas's tub of goo-Miller
    
    3. Lastly, what about Deano's coaching successes?
       - Larry Brown
       - Roy Williams
       - Eddie Fogler
       - ? ? ?
    
       I wonder what Win/Loss records, NCAA appearances these 
       gentlemen have?
     
    OK I'm done.  Having said all that.  Dean does have a Thyroid 
    problem...whose voice could have been used in the recent Dick Tracy
    movie.  And, I'm not wild about Sky blue anything. But, since I'm
    a round ball fan stuck in a football conference, it will give great
    pleasure to see KU (in a rebuilding year) beat first North Carolina,
    and then Duke. (we owe them big from '86)
    
    Respectively,
    
    Kansas Comet (major league Jhawk fan)
     
17.797Fruit basket case?BOSOX::TIMMONSI'm a Pepere!Fri Mar 29 1991 09:4714
    Whoa, Bob Hunt.  Unfair.  
    
    How can you compare a regular season winning percentage to a national
    tournament record?  One, the regular season, is against somewhat
    traditional rivals.  Good teams, bad teams, average teams. 
    
    Tournaments, however, are *supposedly* against the best in the nation.
    
    If you're gonna look at a tournament record, fine, but compare it to
    that of other coaches in the NCAA.
    
    Let's keep apples and oranges separate, okay?
    
    Lee, an_unbiased_noter_in_this_one
17.7987221::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Fri Mar 29 1991 12:1410
    Rumor has it that the main reason the Alllies routed the Iraqis was
    that Dean Smith devised the Iraqi defense strategy.  Despite having
    superb weapons, and well regarded troops, the Iraqi troops were not
    able to win the big one, "The Mother of All Battles".
    
    Many smilies,
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
    
    GO DUKE or unlv or kansas
17.799RDOVAX::BRAKEA Question of BalanceFri Mar 29 1991 12:1914
    Funny thing about High School All Americans but - I don't think that
    qualifies them as automatic college stars. Ditto om College All
    Americans - does not guarantee pro star status.
    
    Let's look at JD's fav macho-man, Doug Flutie. College All-American and
    winner of the Heisman. Bust in the pros. Archie Manning won the Heisman
    twice. Many many more runners who were his college contemporaries
    outshined him in the pros.
    
    Smith having all these HS All Americans does not mean that he has the
    best talent around. That's ludicrous. 
    
    Rich
    
17.800CAM::WAYProps have great shoulders to lean onFri Mar 29 1991 12:349
RE the Allies v. Iraq...


So, what are you getting at here?  That Saddam had the talent, but
underachieved?   I mean, he had a good regular season vs Iran, but
when he got to the big dance, he took the gaspipe,  right?


'SAW
17.801Look at the numbers... Are mere numbers propaganda?NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Mar 29 1991 13:0230
    Also got to admit that your standard is pretty weak, Bob.  Jerry
    Tarkanian has the highest winning percentage in college basketball
    history.  His tournament record probably isn't a whole lot better than
    .500.  The competition *must* be considered.
    
    We went through this back in November.  Stick with the probabilities.
    The probabilities show that 'Snuf has won less than expected based on
    number of times in the tournament, number of times in the Sweet
    Sixteen, number of times in the Final Four, and on and on and on.  Is
    that underachievement?  You be the judge.  I'll take the higher ground
    and say that the record speaks for itself, and let the Dean-fawners
    bring up all the "mitigating circumstances" and "logical explanations"
    to justify why the numbers don't really mean what they are.  
    
    I mean, which is it?  Is Carolina really the number one basketball 
    program in the USA as ACChris claims and therefore underachievers, 
    or has their talent been overrated and too much expected of them?
    Can't be both, but that's what I'm hearing... 
    
    Funny thing about Wooden, though.  Everyone accuses him of having *all*
    the talent, thereby discounting his record.  They conveniently forget,
    though, that unlike Dean, Wooden won when he was expected to, and 
    also when he *wasn't* the favorite going into the tournament, including
    his first and last championships.  Now I'm sure we're going to hear the
    weeping and gnashing of teeth from those on the Dean side, but when all 
    is said and done that's what separates the good from the great.
    
    glenn
    
17.802Laettner to be kissing in the NBA?SHALOT::MEDVIDwe were never being boringFri Mar 29 1991 13:1810
    OK, let's change the subject for a while.  
    
    Does anyone else think that Christian Laettner is gay?  I've been
    around enough gay men in my life to kind of know one when I see/hear
    one.  He looks, acts, and talks the part to a certain extent.  
    
    And it really doesn't matter, either.  I just wondered if I was the
    only one who sensed it.
    
    	--dan'l
17.803CAM::WAYProps have great shoulders to lean onFri Mar 29 1991 13:236
Does he wear comfortable shoes?

Actually, I never really thought about it.....


'Saw
17.804RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOYou shop at K-Mart!!Fri Mar 29 1991 13:4620
    Rich,
    
    First off, according to most of the folks in here, the college coach's
    job isn't to prepare players for  the pros.  And sorry, but if one
    school has 12 H.S. All-Americans on its roster, and another school has
    3, it's easy to figure out which team has the most talent.
    
    Re:  others
    
    Dean Smith is 1-3 in Champeenship games.  Nuff said?  That's a pretty
    cruddy record, no matter HOW you look at it.  He's one Fred Brown pass
    away from being in Bud Grant land.
    
    His losses have been by 12, 23, and 13, while his lone win is by ONE
    point.  A true maestro, ain't he?
    
    Bob Knight is 3-0, John Thompson is 1-2.  Which is Dean closer to in
    coaching the big game?   JT in my eyes.  Think about it.  
    
    JD
17.805CSCOA1::ROLLINS_RFri Mar 29 1991 13:5316
         <<< Note 17.804 by RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JO "You shop at K-Mart!!" >>>

>    Dean Smith is 1-3 in Champeenship games.  Nuff said?  That's a pretty
>    cruddy record, no matter HOW you look at it.  He's one Fred Brown pass
>    away from being in Bud Grant land.
    
>    His losses have been by 12, 23, and 13, while his lone win is by ONE
>    point.  A true maestro, ain't he?
    
>    Bob Knight is 3-0, John Thompson is 1-2.  Which is Dean closer to in
>    coaching the big game?   JT in my eyes.  Think about it.  
    
>    JD

     Who'd each team play in the finals, and what years ?  Sorry I'm so
     forgetful.
17.806RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOYou shop at K-Mart!!Fri Mar 29 1991 14:1211
    I don't think the competition means anything - not in a champeenship
    game, but Dean's team lost to UCLA (expected), Indiana and Marquette
    (two of ACC Chris' whiney Hot Team excuses) and beat Georgetown in 82.
    
    Georgetown beat Houston, and lost to Villanova and UNC.  Villanova was
    an upset.  Houston expected, and they were underdogs to UNC.
    
    Bob Knights Hoosiers beat North Carolina, Beat Syracuse, and beat
    Michigan.
    
    JD
17.807BobHunt proven factually wrong (and that's his *strong* suit!)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Mar 29 1991 15:0615
    Best confine your criticism of Dean's NCAA performance to lack of
    Titles Ketch.  Dean's tournament record is 47-21.  (.691%)
    
    Best of luck to the Nerds Saturday.  Here's hoping they can give Vegas
    a run for their $$$.  And of course best of luck to Carolina, which
    will have its hands full against Roy Williams bunch.  I'd love to see
    UNC in the finals, but irregardless it's been a most enjoyable season.
    Far more than I'd expected ...
 
    Go Heels , and see y'all Wednesday when I arrive back in the (sunny)
    south!


- ACC Chris
    
17.808CAM::WAYProps have great shoulders to lean onFri Mar 29 1991 15:1117
>      -< BobHunt proven factually wrong (and that's his *strong* suit!) >-
>
>    Best confine your criticism of Dean's NCAA performance to lack of
>    Titles Ketch.  Dean's tournament record is 47-21.  (.691%)
    
C'mon Chris.

Bob said he wasn't sure of the numbers, and he wasn't that far off.
You're splitting hairs.

And anyway, even with the revised numbers, his arguments still show
Dean to be the underachiever in the Big Dance that he really is.


Gaspipe City!

'Saw
17.809No TO necessary when I've got the lead and the ballVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitFri Mar 29 1991 15:248
    OK Bob,  As utterly ridiculous as it is to compare regular season
    winning percentage with tournement pct., as intellectually dishonest as
    it is, let me play along with you for a moment.
    
    Is it the case that every coach who has a better regular season
    percentage than tournement is an underachiever, or only Dean Smith?
    
    Dan
17.810Close wins don't countVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitFri Mar 29 1991 15:317
    >His losses have been by 12, 23, and 13, while his lone win is by ONE
    >point.  A true maestro, ain't he?
    
    JD, that's the best point you've made yet!  And you know what?  It's
    pathetic.
    
    Dan
17.811RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOYou shop at K-Mart!!Fri Mar 29 1991 15:3311
    Dan,
    
    One question.  Please explain the fack (tm) that despite a great
    winning percentage - both regular season and NCAA - that Dean is 1-3 in
    the big game, and has won as many titles as Jim Valvano, Tark, Rollie
    Massimino, John Thompson, etc.
    
    I'm really waiting to hear your answer on this one Dan.  What are
    Dean's excuses?  
    
    JD
17.812CSCOA1::ROLLINS_RFri Mar 29 1991 15:393
	How insulting !  Being in the same class as Massimino, Valvano,
	Thompson, etc., and apparently being a cut above the Carneseca-
	Olson-Carlissimo-Meyer type crowd.
17.813RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOYou shop at K-Mart!!Fri Mar 29 1991 15:4813
    Rick,
    
    With Dean's record, and his adulation, he should be up with Wooden,
    Rupp, and Bobby Knight in number of titles, note down with coaches such
    as John Thompson, who has been vilified in this conference for his lack
    of coaching (esp. offensive) abilities.  
    
    Dean's lack of titles is insulting.  His squandering of talent is
    insulting.  The adulation he gets for not winning titles and for
    squandering talent is insulting.  His whining is insulting.  His
    personality (lack of) is insulting.  
    
    JD
17.814Dean has a .000 winning pct. in the '81 title gameVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitFri Mar 29 1991 16:017
    >I'm really waiting to hear your answer on this one Dan.  What are
    >Dean's excuses?  

    I don't care what his excuses are.  I understand the final game is the
    pinnacle of competition, and I understand the relevance of 4 games.

    Dan
17.815EARRTH::BROOKSPick up the pace ....Fri Mar 29 1991 16:078
    re .806
    
    JD, of Gt's losses in the Big One, the 'Nova game was only 2 points (to
    an unbelieveably hot team), and the UNC 1 point.
    
    Think about it - JT was an eyelash away from 3 titles in four years.
    
    Get that man a Pantheon !!!!!!
17.816Dan caint explain 1-3 record.RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOYou shop at K-Mart!!Fri Mar 29 1991 16:2612
    Doc,
    
    Your right - wow using the ACC Chris method of excusing losses due to
    injury and hot teams, JT is most certainly an excellent coach, who has,
    in a very short time masterd Dean's second biggest contribution to the
    game (after the 4 corners) - the excellent loss.
    
    JD
    
    PS:  Doc, you have to fix your pick in DNR - (put down wrong
    position...)
    
17.817NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Mar 29 1991 16:2714
    
    > JD, of Gt's losses in the Big One, the 'Nova game was only 2 points (to
    > an unbelieveably hot team), and the UNC 1 point.
    
    Good one, Doc!  One of the biggest upsets in sports history, and after
    the fact Villanova's an "unbelievably hot team".  You're learning well
    from ACChris.  Congrats!  (By the way, don't forget the most excellent
    Olympic loss.)
    
    Dan, can I take the lack of the response to my critique to mean that
    I've been removed from the rolls of the propagandists?
    
    glenn
    
17.818It's been doneVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitFri Mar 29 1991 16:3418
    >Dan, can I take the lack of the response to my critique to mean that
    >I've been removed from the rolls of the propagandists?
    
    You've made your contributions to their cause, haven't you?
    
    For instance, when people were chiming 11 straight Sweet Sixteens and
    only 1-10 record for titles, where were you with the probability
    argument?
    
    I answered you a week ago or more.  There's only one valid criticism of
    Smith's record.  It's greatly overplayed against a long list of great
    achievements.
    
    *I* don't sit here and cite the achievements, never have.  But the one
    criticism has been one of the oft-repeated uses of propoganda that this
    notesfile has ever seen.
    
    Dan
17.819Like I said, I'll root long and hard for him over UNLV...NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Mar 29 1991 16:4620
    
    > For instance, when people were chiming 11 straight Sweet Sixteens and
    > only 1-10 record for titles, where were you with the probability
    > argument?
    
    Got me there.  It immediately came to mind, but I figured with the
    talent Smith had earlier in the decade, the probabilities were still
    very much in his favor to win at least one.  Much more so than with 
    all the Sweet Sixteens he made when UCLA was in charge, regardless of 
    the raw numbers.
    
    > *I* don't sit here and cite the achievements, never have.  But the one
    > criticism has been one of the oft-repeated uses of propoganda that this
    > notesfile has ever seen.
    
    Fair enough.  I can accept this.  The kicker for me all along was the
    "best program in the USA" stuff... 
    
    glenn 
    
17.820He won his title, then dug his graveVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitFri Mar 29 1991 17:0216
    >I figured with the
    >talent Smith had earlier in the decade, the probabilities were still
    >very much in his favor to win at least one.
    
    A missing piece of the talent argument is that in the period when Dean
    probably did have the best talent in the country, he advised his two
    best players to skip their senior seasons and enter the NBA.  I find it
    likely that if he wished he could have held onto both players that last
    season and added a title or two to his total, approximating the unfair
    expectations Smith is burdened with.
    
    I think theirs fans of a few other programs who can honestly make the
    same argument.  The difference is that they aren't the focus of all
    this propoganda.
    
    Dan
17.821SACT41::ROSSWhen I think of MrT, I touch myselfFri Mar 29 1991 17:383
I believe the hoop gods will punish me this weekend for moving to ACC
country by giving us an ALL-ACC final, with UNC winning.   A UNC win 
would certainly set off a simultaneous roargasm in NC.
17.822STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishFri Mar 29 1991 17:4612
    Dan,
    
    Glad to see you walk both sides of the street.... You'll dish out loads
    of propaganda to get the goat of MrT and others concerning the IU
    program(particularily Knight) but you'll run to the defense of Dean
    Smith and his program...
    
    I just love the hypocracy....
    
    Makes you want to puke....
    
    Cap
17.824Neutral, like SwitzerlandVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitFri Mar 29 1991 17:515
    Cap, you wrote the same note yesterday.  I read it and it wasn't worth
    a reply.  Since you love IU, Knight and his program I don't expect
    objectivity on your part.  Thus, I have ceased forcing the issue.
    
    Dan
17.825STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishFri Mar 29 1991 18:0221
    
    Dan,
    
    I was objective on many occasions openly admitting to Knight's
    mistakes(please tell me I wasn't so I can prove you wrong as their
    is a very objective Knight/IU note in this file).
    
    You're on the other hand did exactly what you're whining about other
    people doing to Smith and his program.  None of your propaganda,
    half-truths and exaggerated STORIES were ever substantiated by truthful
    sources....
    
    They were strictly your opinions and exaggerations that you tried to
    pass off as fact....
    
    You ceased forcing the issue when you saw that it could not be won nor
    proven....
    
    The hypocracy is just oozing out of you right now....
    
    Cap
17.826Sure Cap. I believe everything you say...VAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitFri Mar 29 1991 18:141
    
17.827hupANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Mar 29 1991 18:3159
    >Even when Dean wins a title, The Clique has officially labeled it
    >underachievement.
    
    1 for 30.  1 for 4.  A math model (based on a_adequate knowledge
    of applied mathematics, unlike your wretchedly embarrassing "model")
    that demonstrates his one measly paltry prize at this point is a matter
    of statistical inevitability.
    
    Frankly, I'm sitting here naked in my TV room.  I've shaved my entire
    body and am glistening haid to toe with Wesson and am wired with a 
    low-voltage battery pack that when the button's pushed makes me tingle
    all over.
    
    ACCrisp's poised.  Dan SnideAir's all set.  It's underachievement time!
    'Snuffy and his follow-on CoachK are both, each in his own respective
    way, is on the brink of setting new all-time benchmarks for unbridled
    futility (great recruiter/chok-a-holics).
    
    Gentlemen, need I remind you that the official name of these proceedings
    is the NCAA Men's Basketball *Championsip* Tournament.  The idea is to
    win the Title, the Championship.  Only one team will do that this weekend,
    and neither the Star Hells nor the Pukes will be there at the end.  They
    instead will be invoking excellent-lossism in a most excellent way.
    
    Excellent for them.
    
    But my stock in trade is the G-thing.  Greatness.  3::20, and with no
    support from the television producers.  At 3::20 with 3-guard lineups,
    grad students, and forwards playing center no less, my main main goes
    down as the Greatest Ever (i.e., no Sam Gilbert).
    
    Also, would I be bragging if I remind you that I predicted that Bob's
    minions would go down in the Round of 16 via a stomping, being smoked
    on the boards, muscled in the paint, and outquicked on the transition?
    
    No.  I wouldn't be bragging at all.
    
    Nor would I be bragging if I flatly stated that Bob is CoTY this time
    around, with this guy from Kansas bringing up the rear, and so I aim
    stating just that, and in your hearts (those of you who have one) you
    know I aim right.
    
    Don't know about you, but we were rebuilding this year and I *steal*
    got a new bright red flag ready to go up in *my* arena.  How 'bout
    you?  Probly [sic] not.  Shame.  Especially for you GEEKS who hail from
    conferences that DON'T EVEN HAVE a true Championship conference season.  
    
    Cain all 4 teams lose in the Final Four?  No?  Shame.  Tellya what then,
    I'm rooting for UNLV's Runnin' Rabble.  Their cheerleaders look and 
    move like hookers.  They're backed by gaming money and protected by mafia
    lawyers and make a_annual wage with perks that is ten times the next 
    highest paid squad (sorry, SyrExcuse).
    
    Also, being that I'm a mainly main (before I shaved my body my chest
    was carpeted with ape fur) it don't hurt that the Rabble's youngest starter
    is 22 years of age, neither.  And John Thompson would be proud: The scholar
    athlete the Rabble point to as a_intellectual is majoring in Sociology! 
    
    Big10 Tom                                                           
17.828BUILD::MORGANFri Mar 29 1991 18:3423
    This has to be one of the most incredible topics in this notesfile. 
    We're reaching the 1000 reply mark and at least 3/4 of them have to 
    relate the Dean Smith.  Just blows my mind.  Like I said earlier, a month 
    or so ago I could have given a rat's ass about UNC, but now I'd like to see
    them take it, so we can put a lid on this crap.  You anti-Smithers make
    the Larry Bird Jihad sound like a pack of mutes, if there is such a
    word.
    
    And Cap, about this reply back in .789:
    
   > Great quote from Doug Elstun who transferred from NC(even though
   > ACChris says no one ever transfers away from Dean) to Kansas...
    
   > "Coach Williams was the coach all the players went to.," Elstun said of
   > his time at North Carolina.  "He was the PERSONABLE one, the one we all
   > could talk to."
    
    Isn't this the case with the vast majority of college and professional
    sports teams?  The kid sounds like a wynnie assed brat to me.
    
    Enjoy the games folks.
    
    					Steve
17.829CSCOA1::ROLLINS_RFri Mar 29 1991 18:4615
    Interesting note, but a couple of questions and corrections:

>   But my stock in trade is the G-thing.  Greatness.  3::20, and with no
>   support from the television producers.  At 3::20 with 3-guard lineups,
>   grad students, and forwards playing center no less, my main main goes
>   down as the Greatest Ever (i.e., no Sam Gilbert).
    
    I'm surprised to hear that John Wooden is your "main main," but you should
    be informed that his NCAA tournament championship ratio is much better
    than 3:20.

>   Also, being that I'm a mainly main (before I shaved my body my chest
>   was carpeted with ape fur) 

    How come it doesn't surprise me that your body was covered with ape fur ?
17.830ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Mar 29 1991 18:5712
    >How come it doesn't surprise me that your body is covered with ape
    >fur?
    
    1) You have no trace of imagination in the first place.
    2) You play fast and loose with fack (i.e., only my chest is ape-furred)
    
    As for John Wooden, I refer you to revelations by several of his ex-
    players regarding cash payments, free cars, etc.  The "great" UCLA 
    teams were the best teams money could buy, and they spent one helluva
    lotta money.  
    
    MrT
17.831SACT41::ROSSBeastie rhyme: pagoda, Abe VigodaFri Mar 29 1991 19:064
Plus, Bill Walton claims Wooden knew that Bill was smoking dope before the
games as a "stress reliever".

If we only had SPORTS.NOTE back then, Wooden would've been toast.
17.832CSCOA1::ROLLINS_RFri Mar 29 1991 19:0711
	Others involved in his program have denied these allegations.
	While you have jealously defended your Big Ten comrades (generally)
	before any improprieties have been unquestionably proven, you
	seem quite willing to take the opposite stance when it argues against
	your demi-god being the greatest ever.

	I'll say he has [Knight] has one of the best basketball programs
	of all time.  However, it cannot compare to Wooden's accomplishments.
	Moreover, even in the years they coached simultaneously, Wooden
	completely overshadows Knight, so any argument about times being
	different in Wooden's days should be seen to be the joke that it is.
17.833EARRTH::BROOKSPick up the pace ....Fri Mar 29 1991 19:1327
    
    
re .827
        
>    Frankly, I'm sitting here naked in my TV room.  I've shaved my entire
>    body and am glistening haid to toe with Wesson and am wired with a 
>    low-voltage battery pack that when the button's pushed makes me tingle
>    all over.
 
    That is too funny.
       
    
>    Gentlemen, need I remind you that the official name of these proceedings
>    is the NCAA Men's Basketball *Championsip* Tournament.  
    
    No T ... it's Championship ...
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^
    

>    Nor would I be bragging if I flatly stated that Bob is CoTY this time
>    around, with this guy from Kansas bringing up the rear, 
    
    "this guy from Kansas" .... you mean the Dean Smif' disciple who kicked
    Bobby Knight's ass by 20 points ? The one who's team effectively ended
    matters after about 20 minutes (real time, about 7 game time) ?
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!
17.834John Wayne meets DorothySTA201::MCNIELMon Apr 01 1991 01:5810
    ACC,
    
    
    One down...One to go!
    
    
    Comet 
    
    
    
17.835BOSOX::TIMMONSI'm a Pepere!Mon Apr 01 1991 10:3513
    Geez, I just heard on the radio that NC's loss was overturned by the
    NCAA!!!
    
    The game will be replayed tonite, with the championship game on Wed
    instead.
    
    Seems that the refs blew it when they tossed Dean on a very *minor*
    technicality, and since NC was down by only 5, it was deemed a critical
    mistake.
    
    Unbelieveable.
    
    lEe
17.836BOSOX::TIMMONSI'm a Pepere!Mon Apr 01 1991 10:366
    
    
    APRIL FOOL!!!
    
    
    lEe
17.837Montross dominating, put in Chilcutt. good move Snuffy ;^)CHIEFF::CHILDSDean validates Anti's claims againMon Apr 01 1991 12:3915
 A_ANOTHER EXCELLENT LOSS with the topper of all toppers for an excuse..

 

	They threw out the coach!! HEE HAW HEE HAW!!!!

 the faithful must be sucking this one up big time.. "They're all against
 poor Dean"....

  I thought Packer was going to have a conarary...hahahaa

 what a boob Snuffy, what a classless act but a whiner....

 mike 
17.838Dean Marley, mon....CAM::WAYProps have great shoulders to lean onMon Apr 01 1991 12:4713
(to the tune of I Shot the Sheriff)


I took the gaspipe, so I coulnd't win the championship.
I took the gaspipe, so I could not win the championship.

Kansas came my way one day, and took it to my boys,
Another excellent loss for me, give the faithful excellent joy.

I took the gaspipe, so I coulnd't win the championship.
I took the gaspipe, so I could not win the championship.


17.839The "Legend Of The Lost Cause" lives on ...SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsMon Apr 01 1991 13:095
    Make that 1 for 31.
    
    The people rest, Your Honor.
    
    Bob Hunt
17.841Lady Hoos Number 2 ... Not good enoughSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsMon Apr 01 1991 14:1528
 I know, I know, dammit, I know.  I watched in agony as the Lady Hoos spun
 down in flames.  Life as a Virginia fan takes another vicious knife twist
 in the heart.
 
 No excuses.  Five point lead with a little over a minute to go and they
 let Tennessee tie them.  Lady Hoos couldn't hit their shots or their free
 throws and the Lady Vols ran away from them in overtime.  Dena Head
 couldn't miss.
 
 Just to show you all that I can bellyache with the best of the Soupster
 species, I would like to point out one referee's call that, for all
 intents and purposes, cost the Cavaliers the game.   I don't remember the
 exact amount of time left (about 5:00 or so) when Tami Reiss buried a
 three-pointer.   One of the refs blew a whistle for a foul call on a
 another Lady Vol away from the ball while Reiss' shot was in the air on
 its way to the bucket.   But the zebras took away the valid bucket and the
 Hoos lost those crucial three points.   Argh!   There, I'm done bitchin'.
 
 Lady Hoos lose only one starter next year, Tanya Cardoza.   Everyone else
 is back so they should be able to make another run at it.   That is *ZERO*
 consolation to me right at this moment, though.  I wanted that title real
 bad and they blew it.  I'm sure they wanted it just as badly.
 
 And then the Hoos' top-ranked lacrosse team lost to Johns Hopkins.
 
 Ob-la-di, ob-la-da, life goes on ...
 
 Bob Hunt
17.843I assume Rev. Smif taught his pupil a lessonWORDY::NAZZAROUMass: NIT Final Four now; NCAA nextMon Apr 01 1991 15:483
    BTW, how did Carolina fare against Kansas?
    
    NAZZ
17.844Snuffy Smif and his Gaspipe Gang!CAM::WAYProps have great shoulders to lean onMon Apr 01 1991 15:549
17.845Snuff at his bestSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsMon Apr 01 1991 16:1527
 Snuffy made a frantic 93 substitutions in the space of 40 minutes of
 playing time.  Nice continuity there, Snuff.  Whoops, excuse me, make that
 39:15 of playing time seeing as how Snuff got a police escort after his
 2nd T.
 
 Which brings up another question ... namely, was the police escort needed
 to keep Snuff from harm or was it to protect him from loving kisses of
 appreciation from the fans of both teams ???  
 
 The oh-so-important seniors shot a total of 8-for-36 while Montross, one
 of the fab freshman, shot 3-for-4.  Kansas had no one who could front
 Montross effectively so what does Snuff do ???   He benches him for keeps
 after his 4th foul.
 
 Snuff had such a frenzied whirlwind of a substitution pattern that with
 about 2:00 to go, he had Pat Sullivan on the floor.  This is the same
 player that the Duke fans greeted with their "Oh, No!  Not Sullivan ???"
 cheer during their regular season matchups.
 
 Unbelievable.  Too good to be true.  If there's anyone out there who is
 still not convinced that this quack can't coach his way out of a sopping
 wet paper bag, I have some land for sale in Florida that you might be
 interested in.
 
 I almost feel sorry for Carolina fans.  Blind faith is tragic.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.846RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOYo Sugar Ray, you sweating alot!Mon Apr 01 1991 16:5225
    Bob,
    
    Agree with you a hundred percent on the substitutions.  And the lame
    brain announcers made it sound like sound strategy.  Geez.  Is Rick Fox
    still firing away with the accuracy of a scud missle?  Geez, cut the
    guy off.  Snuffy has the decided edge down low with Chilcutt and
    MOntross - he has to know (everyone with a brain in the world knew it,
    at least) that if Randle gets in foul trouble, Kansas is cooked.  So
    what does Dean do?  Does he attack Randle with a wave of players?  No,
    he goes at him with all the fury of a gumless cat.   Worst coaching job
    I've seen in a long time.
    
    Now for some obligatory jokes:
    
    I hear UNC is hiring Linda Lovelace as an Asst Coach:
    
    
    
    Dean's figures she'll blow a few on the way, but....
    
    
    
    She won't choke on the big one.
    
    JD
17.847ACC in it AGAIN!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSThe lady is 2 tough 2 tame!Mon Apr 01 1991 17:2912
    
    	I've been listening to you guys rant and rave about Smith's NCAA
    tournament bid...What is sooooo wrong about the guy making the Final 4?
    
    	Did he or did he not show some class by shaking the entire Kansas
    team after his un-called for ejection? I think he is a very good coach
    with a few minor mistakes. What's wrong with a team that does good
    every year? Is this what we call Jealously? Hummm could be...
    
    Go ACC_no_matter_what_team_it_is!
    
    B.A.
17.848CHIEFF::CHILDSDean validates Anti's claims againMon Apr 01 1991 17:4415
    
>    	Did he or did he not show some class by shaking the entire Kansas
>    team after his un-called for ejection? I think he is a very good coach
>    with a few minor mistakes. What's wrong with a team that does good
>    every year? Is this what we call Jealously? Hummm could be...
    
 
 It was classless BA because the game wasn't over. It was another attemp
 to stick in the refs face. It was a disgusting showing to his players as
 well who had been giving Kansas fits inbounding the ball as well as Kansas
 missing free throws. Had he kept his mouth shut and coached instead of
 baiting the ref who knows what might have happened. 


 mike
17.849ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Apr 01 1991 17:5340
    >Did he or did he not show some class by shaking the entire Kansas team
    >after his un-called for ejection?
    
    Wail, if *I* may venture a comment, to me it was the worst form of 
    low-class geekery for a coach to congratulate the opposition for a
    victory that wasn't even won yet.  Uncalled for?  The very same 
    Billy Packer who not two minutes earlier had warned "Dean Smith better
    cool it with the refs, or he's gonna get slapped with a second technical
    and thrown outta here," was during the post-game sniffing about how the
    referee was unfair.
    
    We learned a couple a things from 'Snuffy's foolish spectacle:
    
    1) Smif's a quitter.  35 seconds to go, only 5 down, and he gave up.
    2) Smif's a wheedler.  His whining was ceaseless, and he put a black 
       mark on the game of college hoops with his exhibition of poor
       sportsmanship.
    3) Smif's a bad big game coach.  His squad, much deeper along the front
       line, got outrebounded cuz they were outhustled, and cuz the adjustment
       wasn't made to keep his big guys in position to rebound.  Smif also 
       failed to adjust for his top scorer's wretched shooting touch, instead
       letting poor Fox to keep shooting until he either found his touch or 
       they lost (they lost). 
    4) Smif's program calls for review.  His assistant coach attacking the
       referee after the game is indicative of a program gone out of control.
    
    Smif' deserved the T, and *I* for one aim especially happy that he got
    slapped with it.  I thought I'd died and went to heaven when I saw that
    sheet-eating grin plastered on his stunned, confused face, as he made a
    fool of himself and his players and gave up on the game for the purpose
    of showing up the ref and shoring up his questionable reputation.
    
    Geekery at its purest.  Sublime.  I nearly died laughing at the sight of
    it.  'Snuffy's spectacle is how Titles are lost and represent form over
    substance in its worst conceivable form.
    
    Dean, thank you.  Thank you so much.  I've never been so entertained.
    The UNLV-Duke game was a letdown in comparison to the show you put on.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.850How many volts now, T ???SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsMon Apr 01 1991 17:5722
 I was rolling when Packer had the sheer stupidity to say that "you don't
 call a technical on a 'legend' at that point in the game."
 
 Yeah, right, Billy.   The NCAA rule book clearly states that all
 non-legendary coaches will confine themselves to the coach's box in front
 of the team's bench.   Legends, of course, may wander onto the floor or
 over in front of the scorer's table whenever they want to.  Too funny.
 
 For whatever it's worth, I, too, think the ref was a bit overzealous in
 running Dean outta there.  However, I was already shaking with delight at
 the score and the lateness of the game.  Dean's heave-ho was just icing
 on an already delicious cake.
 
 I can only imagine what T was feeling at that moment what with all that
 Wesson Oil he had poured on himself and the electric jumper cables he had
 attached to his ex-hairy chest.
 
 And then to have Duke spank Vegas was too good to be true.   Nice
 "flagship" program you got there, Carolina.  Hope you enjoy the game on
 the tube tonight.  You shoulda been playin' in it instead.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.851Carolina Blew.....CAM::WAYProps have great shoulders to lean onMon Apr 01 1991 18:0520
re the last 2:

	My thighs are shuddering...8^)

	You gentlemen have quite succinctly captured the joy of the
	moment.

	When will ACC Chris come in here puffin' and blowin' the
	standard Star-Hells Blue line about another excellent loss.

	I think MrT's erstwhile p-name said it all "Carolina Blue".


'Saw


PS  From highlight report I saw, they made it sound like Smif came
    back to congrats Kansas AFTER the game, not before.  I didn't
    realize that he did it on the way out of the arena in the first
    place.....
17.852ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYHappy 75th IRA's Easter RebellionMon Apr 01 1991 18:1221
    Where's ACCrisp?  Did he chicken out?  GIT IN HERE Knorr and take your
    medicine like a main!  What a wretched coaching job!
    
    Two things are required here, for our geeking pleasure:
    
    1) Crisp must link the "E" to the "G" if he's to remain consistent 
       and if we're to see our thighs shudder properly.
    
    2) Dan must come in with one a his hackneyed diatribes positing that
       what the sideshow we witnessed is meaningless cuz it ain't numeric,
       that this latest choke-job by Reverend Underachievement is only
       "anecdotal" and therefore proves nothing.
    
    Dean lost to Indiana in the '53 Title game.  He lost to Indiana in the
    '81 Title game.  His "the best team of all time" was eliminated by Indiana
    in the '84 subregional.  And now, surrogate-style, his protoge is gonna
    git beat by Bob's.
    
    SWEEP.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.853RAVEN1::B_ADAMSThe lady is 2 tough 2 tame!Mon Apr 01 1991 18:1822
17.854For the chest beaters whose faves choked earlyVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitMon Apr 01 1991 18:5130
    So UNC finally lost a game in the 1991 NCAA Tourney, and the gloaters
    have their day.
    
    >And now, surrogate-style, his protoge is gonna git beat by Bob's.       
    
    Ya'mean just like Dean's protege beat Bob himself?  Is their a lesson
    there?
    
    Let's take a look at some facts:
    
    Coach A has the best recruiting class in the nation.  He already had a
    pretty good team, and he's adding to it a slew of talented freshmen. 
    His team had very high pre-season expectations.  The team didn't do
    that well in their conference, and lost in the first round of the NCAAs
    to a much weaker team.
    
    Coach B has the best recruiting class in the nation.  He already
    had a pretty good team, and he's adding to it a slew of talented
    freshmen.  His team had very high pre-season expectations.  The team
    had an excellent year in their conference, and won the championship. 
    They make it to the Final Four of the NCAAs before losing.
    
    Coach B receives nothing but scorn and ridicule from the cultists and
    cliques of SPORTS notes.  Coach A nothing but praise and admiration.
    
    Conclusion: Propoganda does work.
    
    Dan
    
        
17.855Slippery standardsVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitMon Apr 01 1991 18:5713
    Gosh, I plum forgot to finish my story...
    
    With a year of experience under the belt, Coach A's team has even
    higher expectations for the next season (higher than Coach B's team). 
    Not only didn't they lose any significant players, but they add the
    high school player of the decade!  Coach A's team does much better in
    conference, and backed into a tie for the championship.  They
    unexpectedly lose in the round of 16 to the same team that ends up
    beating Coach B's team in the Final Four.
    
    Nary a critical word is spoken by the brain-washed masses.
    
    Dan
17.856MrT - The Dean sSmif of objective analysisEARRTH::BROOKSThe 83 Coogs, 88 Sooners, 91 UNLVMon Apr 01 1991 19:2623
    
    re .852
    
>    Where's ACCrisp?  Did he chicken out?  GIT IN HERE Knorr and take your
>    medicine like a main!  What a wretched coaching job!
    
    What a HYPOCRITE !!!!!!!
    
    Where were you lasted week when I.U. got it's jock handed to it ?

>  And now, surrogate-style, his protoge is gonna git beat by Bob's.
    
    By what logic did you come by that T ? 
    
    After all that "protoge" wiped the floor with Bob's plaid-clad ass last
    week !!!! 
    
    Are you saying that Bob doesn't have what it takes to beat a surrogate?
    That he has to rely on his choke-artist ACC flunky ?
    
    HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!
    
    Doc
17.8577221::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Mon Apr 01 1991 19:364
    I wish some of that talent that ends up being wasted in Chapel Hill
    would end up in Amherst.  :-(
    
    John
17.858Is Dan trying his hand at Math again ?????DECWET::METZGEROh No, I've said too much...Mon Apr 01 1991 19:3717
As far as my math skill can take it....

Team A loses to Team C
Team B loses to Team C

What inference can you make between teams A and B....


Team A and Team B are both inferior to team C.......


Go Kansas ......................



Metz
17.859Hard to believe, HarrySHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsMon Apr 01 1991 20:2420
 Bob Knight stood up in front of the entire sports world not 10 minutes
 after his loss to Kansas last week and said "We are not yet ready for the
 Final Four.  Good night."
 
 Dean Smith has made no such statement and I would strongly advise anyone
 against holding their breath waiting for him to say anything like it.  It
 won't happen because, like every other year, he had the horses to be
 playing this far into the tournament.    He had it in front of him and
 spit it out.   North Carolina should be playing Duke this very night,
 tonight, getting ready for it right now.   But he ain't.
 
 They got an unbelievable low-seed cakewalk to Indianapolis and then
 proceeded to gag on the first really tough team they saw in the
 tournament.   They played a 16th seed, a 9th seed, a 12th seed, a 10th
 seed, and then went belly up to a 3rd seed.
 
 Somehow, though, the legend in Chapel Hill will increase yet one more sad
 notch.   Truly unbelievable.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.860Neither Knight, nor Smith, stellar in '91 tourneyCSCOA1::ROLLINS_RMon Apr 01 1991 20:5512
	UNC shouldn't have lost, they had more talent than Kansas, and
	their seniors choked.  Dean did not make good coaching moves in
	this game, and deserves criticism.

	Bob Knight's IU team also should have beaten Kansas, and even though
	he said that didn't have a Final Four team, he lied.  IU's talent
	was good enough that they should've gotten as far as Deano's team
	did.  BK did a poor job preparing his team to play Kansas, and the
	Hoosiers blew their final four chances because of it.

	Neither coach really has much to be proud of.  Both could easily
	be in tonight's finale, but neither is.
17.861Some people need to always have a bad guyVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitMon Apr 01 1991 21:0223
>"We are not yet ready for the
> Final Four.  Good night."
 
> Dean Smith has made no such statement and I would strongly advise anyone
> against holding their breath waiting for him to say anything like it. 
    
    So?  Does this make him less of a man?   Less of a coach?  He was
    *extremely* gracious in defeat, and made a point each and every time he
    could to praise Kansas and their coach.
    
    I could ask each member of the anti-Dean clique in here to write down
    what they think a coach should do under the exact same set of
    circumstances, from coaching the game, to getting tossed out, to
    post-game remarks.  Dean Smith could have followed those instructions
    to the letter.  And he would be criticized mercilessly in the same
    fashion as he is here today.  There hasn't been a truer thought
    expressed in this notesfile today. 
    
    BTW, Bob.  You never answered my question of last week.  Those
    parameters you invented to claim Dean is an underachiever: do they
    apply to other coaches as well, or just Dean?
    
    Dan
17.862Applys to all, DanSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsMon Apr 01 1991 21:2026
17.863At least it's moved to a magic 10% deltaVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitMon Apr 01 1991 22:0724
 >I'm sorry but if you win near 78% of your regular
 >season games then you damn sure better not be winning only 65% or whatever
 >of your NCAA games.   How else can you quantify big game choking, Dan ???
    
 >If
 >they have more than a 10% delta between their regular season and their
 >post-season %ages, then they're chokers, too.
    
    Oh, the magic number is 10%.  How convenient!  I don't have the numbers
    in front of me, but I'll bet virtually every coach fails at this
    measurement, which by your definition would make them all big game
    chokers.  Are they?  Of course not.  But you're gonna do worse against
    better competition - they all do.  The behavior you are villifying
    Smith for is *expected*.
    
    To compare Dean Smith's achievements to an NFL coach, you'd find one
    that won the Super Bowl, has lost one or two, and every year wins a
    game or two in the playoffs.  If an NFL coach did that, he's be a
    hero.  Shoot, they'd probably name a stadium after him.
    
    JD, when you can offer up something other than your current bimbo
    blather, I'll respond to you again.
    
    Dan
17.864RAVEN1::B_ADAMSThe lady is 2 tough 2 tame!Mon Apr 01 1991 22:2510
17.865This could be a fun one to hash out ......DECWET::METZGERThat's me in the spot.....light....Mon Apr 01 1991 23:0518
One of the toughest things about generating a metric to compare between the
regular season and the tourney is that in the tourney all but 1 team is 
guarenteed a loss in it. The objective is to generate more wins before the loss.

There is no qualification made is a loss is in the first round to the eventual
champion or if the loss is in the final game..... 

Can anybody dig up a numbers for a few of the great coaches for regular season
records and Tourney records? I'd like to see the delta for my own personal
curiosity...How about Wooden,Smith,Knight,Pitino and a few of the older guys
that I don't know about?

Maybe Dan could do some research on this one ?


Metz
 
17.8667221::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Tue Apr 02 1991 11:2611
    Recently I talked with a friend of mine who has never read the SPORTS
    conference (thus, has never read the propaganda), who knows his
    basketball, who was recruited by both Knight and Smith (signed with
    neither Indiana nor Carolina due to injury) and who has admiration and
    respect for both of them.  He also feels that Knight overachieves with
    the talent he gets and feels Smith badly underachieves with the talent
    he gets.
    
    In other words, it ain't just the propaganda in here, folks.
    
    John
17.868AXIS::ROBICHAUDDockers...Pants for |CENSORED|sTue Apr 02 1991 12:026
17.869Nicely done, Blue DevilsSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsTue Apr 02 1991 12:245
    It's official ...
    
    Notes> SET CONFERENCE ACC /FLAGSHIP="DUKE"
    
    Bob Hunt
17.870Mellow mon. Dean could be Billy Tubbs!STA201::MCNIELTue Apr 02 1991 13:0011
    ACC,
    
    Way to go Dukies.
    
    You had a step on us all night...and certainly deserve to win the
    Champeeenship.
    
    Congrats.
    
    Jamin' J-hawk (aka Comet)
    
17.871RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOYo Sugar Ray, you sweating alot!Wed Apr 03 1991 14:1720
    Congrats to Duke - Coach K now equals the "Legend" in number of titles
    won.  ;-)
    
    
    RE:  Dan
    
    Geez Dan, must have struck a nerve, eh?  Resorting to name-calling and
    other personal attacks.  So *unlike* you Dan.
    
    Dan, it's not just Dean who gets measured by underachievement (To me,
    at least).  I thought Meyer at DePaul was useless, and though I like
    St. John's and Louie - and admire his regular season record, I don't
    consider Louie a big game coach cause his teams have made the Final
    Four once in all of his years.   But, Louie doesn't get a building
    named after him, and doesn't act like God's gift to coaching.  He also
    admits defeat, and admits being outcoached.  Something Dean never
    admits to - even thought the record clearly shows he's been outcoached
    numerous times.    
    
    
17.872Duke #1WMOIS::REEVE_CWed Apr 03 1991 15:5022
    Congrats to the Blue Devils and the ACC for producing national
    championship teams in football and basketball in the same year. Have
    they ever done it before?
    
    My $.02 on Dean Smith- He ain't the best that ever coached (Wooden and
    Rupp were) but he's in the Top Ten. UNC has had a terrific program for
    a long time and he is primarily responsible. I have a lot more respect
    for him than for Knight primarily due to the poor example Knight used
    to be to his kids (his behavior has improved with age). I also think
    all this bickering and personal attacks are silly and childish. Both
    are great coaches who have different approaches to the game, but enjoy
    tremendous success anyway. 
    
    As to using winning percentages in regular season vs tournament, that
    would only be meaningful if the tournament were a round robin instead
    of single elimination. It is virtually impossible to have a winning
    percentage in the playoffs that is equal to or close to regular season
    unless you have totally dominant teams like UCLA had. That era is long
    gone and will probably never be duplicated, there's just too much
    talent around now.
    
    Chris 
17.873Still more ...SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsWed Apr 03 1991 17:0537
17.874EARRTH::BROOKSThe 83 Coogs, 88 Sooners, 91 UNLVWed Apr 03 1991 17:1716
    re .862
    
    With all due respect Bob, the Ryan-Smif analogy seems to be apples and
    oragnes to me. It also seems to be a sour grapes thing on your end.
    
    Ryan probably should have been retained. But by the same token, he did
    very little to help his cause in the area of human relations.
    
    Let's face it, Buddy P.O.ed his own owner (Bob, that is the guy *who
    writes his checks*), most of his peers, and was starting to alienate
    a few players.
    
    And look at the aftermath of his firing. Right now the Eagles have not
    one, but several chasms - and Buddy is part of the reason.
    
    You really ought to find another analogy.
17.875EARRTH::BROOKSThe 83 Coogs, 88 Sooners, 91 UNLVWed Apr 03 1991 17:209
    re .865
    
    Don't forget Metz, that Wooden had to win fewer games to win a title.
    Which is a double-edged sword in that he would get fewer total wins
    (and a potentially lower pct.), but if you win a lot of titles, your
    tourny pct will be sky high ...
    
    And I do not mean to take away from Wooden's accomplishments in any way
    either ...
17.876it's a foolish, meaningless measurementVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitWed Apr 03 1991 17:368
 >Sorry, I disagree.   See "Krzyzewski, Mike".   
    
    What, are you just being beliigerent, Bob?  No one said there's not
    exceptions.  I'll bet if you scrape, you can probably find 10 or so out
    of the 1000s of Div. 1 coaches there's been.  The point is that unless
    virtually every coach is a choker, your standard is wrong.  And it is.
    
    Dan
17.877Here ya go, DocSHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsWed Apr 03 1991 17:4130
17.878CAM::WAYProps have great shoulders to lean onWed Apr 03 1991 17:4516
> There was some guy in another non-sports
> related conference who just yesterday was claiming that Carolina was the
> real national champ since they had beaten Duke three weeks ago.   He was
> serious, too, and I am not kidding.
 
Could be something in the water down there, Bob.  I mean, seriously.

That's like someone saying that the 49ers should be Super Bowl
champs because they beat the Giants in the regular season, or that
the Bills should be for the same reason.....

Ever see that movie Invasion of the Body Snatchers?  Sounds kinda like
the Carolina Blew faithful to me......


'Saw
17.879Worse than ACChis this guySHALOT::MEDVIDat scorer's table for extended blowWed Apr 03 1991 17:5214
>There was some guy in another non-sports
> related conference who just yesterday was claiming that Carolina was the
> real national champ since they had beaten Duke three weeks ago.   He was
> serious, too, and I am not kidding.
    
    I'm a member of the same conference (CAROLINAS) and sure enough a note
    appeared Tuesday morning stating exactly what Bob said.  Then he gets
    in there later and heaped 20+ lines of praise for Smith.  
    
    Again, as we discussed a few weeks ago, typical Carolina.  Now Dean is
    the martyr of the NCAA...all the more reason for Carolina to
    unrelentlessly kiss his feet.  Just disgusting.
    
    	--dan'l
17.880well atleast I won somethingCHIEFF::CHILDSI'm doin' fine-e-e-e-e on cloud 9Wed Apr 03 1991 17:537
 Another point about Dean's classlessness, he has for years ranted and raved
 about how the conference championship should go the regualr season champion
 and not the tournement champ. Yet didn't he bring it up that they were the
 conference champs this year in his post game interview???

 mike
17.881ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewWed Apr 03 1991 19:0142
    Bob, you're blowing it!  Don't git ratholed on some silly-assed 10%
    delta thing.  It's a *championship* tournament, and evaluating coaching
    from the "G" standpoint accounts for quality.  You're making Dan look
    good here, and that's not good.
    
    >See Krzyzewski, Mike.
    
    No, see Waugaman, Glenn, who proved that over his 30 years his Steve
    Fisher-tying *one* was dastistickally inevitable.
    
    re .866
    
    Thank you, John.
    
    >he was *extremely* gracious in defeat.
    
    He was *extremely* GEEKY is what he was: "The game was over at that
    point."  Really?  Dean, thousands of college teams have overcome 5
    point deficits with 35 seconds remaining.  Admittedly, they weren't
    saddled with a dazed coach walking down the sideline zombie-style 
    incessantly droning "how much time do I have left, how much time do
    I have left, how much time do I have left," eyes glazed like two stale
    donuts.
    
    Nor was it gracious or classy for his assistant to accost the referee
    and for his players to involve themselves in a scuffle with the police.
    
    Least gracious of all was his quitting on his players.  
    
    Even prior to receiving his much-deserve technical is was apparent to
    all how 'Snuffy blows all these "anecdotal" games: rotten coaching.  
    
    Seeing Smif' at the end, out of control, his cool totally lost, only
    drove the point home beyond any deniability.
    
    C'mon, Dan, my shaved thighs are oiled and waiting: Give us the anecdotal
    argument, that cuz my CRT (a Trinitron) had a real game on it and not
    numbers that it wasn't real.
    
    Just say it.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.882ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewWed Apr 03 1991 19:1137
    >IU's talent was good enough... they also should've beaten Kansas
    
    Funny, but the analysts (Vitale, Valvano, MrT and most others) had
    Indiana losing in the Round of 16 cuz a their lack of front-line 
    size, strength, and depth.  True to form, Indiana ended up out of 
    necessity playing a 3-guard lineup with a forward in the middle (with
    a severely pained lower back, btw) and they got hammered by Randall
    (an Olympic Festival teammate in the middle with Shack and Laettner),
    Maddox, and Jamieson.
    
    Indiana was the most overrated team of the year.  Their top victory
    of the year was either Michigan State or Kaintuck, take your pick, but
    neither of them very impressive.  I had the Hoosiers as either a 3 or
    a 4 seed.  
    
    The good news is that, for the first time in a full decade, Bob will
    have all the pieces: a 7-foot center (Lindemann), a power forward who 
    cain bang (Evans) and a true widebody (Henderson, Bob's first such 
    player since Landon Turner, the kid who got crippled and saw Bob donate
    $75,000 out a his own pock and alienate Montross' shyster dad over.
    
    It's possible that we'll see Calbert at his natural position, guard,
    a good deal next year.  We should see them rebound and block some shots
    for the first time in recent memory.  This'll free up all those guards
    to take some chances on D and do some running on O.
    
    >chair thrown at a ref by Mr. Good-Knight!
    
    The chair was thrown into a_empty backcourt and wasn't thrown at anybody.
    
    re: Dr. Malpractice
    
    My absence?  You should also mention that I wasn't in here during the 
    month leading up to Indiana's unsurprising loss, either.  I been busy,
    and bidness comes first.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.883DECWET::METZGERThat's me in the spot.....light....Wed Apr 03 1991 19:1810
I'm pretty sure that in his post game interview Dean said that he was proud 
because his team made it to the final four and was ACC Tourney champs, not
conference champs....

There's so much underachievement to pick on him for I wouldn't want him picked
on for something he didn't say....


Metz
17.884QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Wed Apr 03 1991 19:4025
I think the reason Snuffy got the T's was the Temple game.

He was out on the court at least twice, yelling at the Refs... and no T.

Several people commented on it where I was watching, and I'll bet the
Refs got an earful. 

The next time `The Legend' decided to get feisty, the Refs HAD to call
it. 

The Duke / UNLV game was arguably one of the best Hoops games I've ever
seen. Duke was sky high, and running like MANIACS! It was a hell of an
exhibition, and they get credit for not losing their emotion, but
staying high for the Kansas game. I couldn't believe the Dirty Feet lost
to Kansas. Kansas is really not a great team. But they're tenacious.
They stuffed Indiana and Arkansas, also... and I'll maintain that both
of those teams were better than Kansas....But... That's basketball. I
think Syracuse was better than Richmond, and Mississippi State was
better than Eastern Michigan, and I honestly believe that if UNLV played
Duke ten times, UNLV would win 8 or 9 of them. but at the Big Dance, you
have to have the cool, and the luck not to let an inferior team beat



Mike JN
17.886Tip for '91-92 season: Don't mess with BillSHALOT::MEDVIDat scorer's table for extended blowThu Apr 04 1991 12:25101
    Tom Sorensen's column from April 3 Charlotte Observer
    
    INDIANAPOLIS -- At 8 a.m., a tall guy walked through the Indianapolis
    Airport singing the North Carolina fight song.
    
    Why was a Tar Hell fan singing?  Because Duke's season had finally
    ended.
    
    On Tuesday, the 1991-92 college basketball season began.
    
    Optimism is one thing to look for this season.  HJere are 20 others.
    
    1 - Duke freshman Cherokee Parks will be pressured by several
    politically correct organizations, non of htem made up of Native
    Americans, to change his name.  He will choose a Duke name --
    Cherokee Hill.
    
    2 - NC State won't seem at all like NC State.  It will lack its usual
    Fire and its usual Ice.
    
    3 - Two games into the season, an official will run to the North
    Carolina bench to tell head coach Dean Smith to stop complaining. 
    Assistant coach Bill Guthridge, who reluctantly became famous after
    getting involved at the 1991 Final Four in a confrotation with an
    Indiana cop, will react by looking up.
    
    "Sorry, Mister Guthridge," the official will say.  "I wasn't talking to
    you."
    
    4 - In the AP rankings, Wake Forest will begin the season at No. 17.
    
    5 - Jerry Tarkanian will begin the season at Nevada-Las Vegas.
    
    6 - Jim Valvano will begin the season at ESPN.
    
    7 - Pete Pavia, who kicked Dean Smith out of the Final Four, will begin
    the season as a basketball official.
    
    8 - Duke coach Mike krzyzewski will begin the season telling his team
    to focus.  "Focus!" he will yell at Christian Laettner when the Blue
    Devils play at North Carolina.  Guthridge will react by stroking the
    three-day-old stubble around his chin.
    
    "Sorry, Mister Guthridge," Krzyzewski will say.  "I wasn't talking to
    you."
    
    9 - Duke will begin the season ranked No. 1.
    
    10 - North Carolina will begin teh season ranked No. 3.
    
    11 - Shaquille O'Neal will begin teh season as the Denver Nuggets'
    center.  The Nuggets will pay him the highest rookie salary in history. 
    They will still come out ahead.
    
    12 - Indiana coach Bob Knight will bristle when asked at a news
    conference if he calls Krzyzewski to help formulate his game plans. 
    Knight will say he does not need the help of Krzyzewski, who he calls
    coach Krzyzewski, to prepare his Hoosiers.
    
    13 - The Blue Devils' basketball team will get more attention than it
    ever have [sic]. It will get as much attention as the students who
    cheer for it.
    
    14 - When North Carolina plays at Duke, the Duke students will greet
    Dean Smith with Pete Pavia masks.  Guthridge will react by spitting a
    wad of chewing tobacco into a cheap plastic cup.
    
    "Sorry, Mister Guthridge," the students will say.  "We weren't talking
    to you."
    
    15 - Indiana will be really good.
    
    16 - UNLV will be better than you think.
    
    17 - Florida State will be in the ACC.  A Florida radio announcer will
    begin his broadcast by saying, "We're coming to you live from Leon
    County Civic Center with Florida State basketball!"
    
    North Carolina assistant Bill Guthridge will react by removing his
    black leather jacket.
    
    "Sorry, Mister Guthridge," the announcer will say.  "We weren't talking
    to you."
    
    18 - It will occur to entrepreneurs that the North Carolina sophomore
    class of Eric Montross, Clifford Rozier, Derrick Phelps, Brian Reese,
    Pat Sullivan and Keven Salvadori will be seniors in 1994 whe Charlotte
    hosts the Final Four.
    
    19 - The three-team Sun Belt Conference will lose its basketball
    contract with public access cable.
    
    20 - The day before the ACC baskeball tournament, Guthridge will sidel
    over to Cherokee Hill.  "Kid," Guthridge will say, "I liked your name
    better before you changed it."
    
    In the first round against Clemson, Chrokee Parks will be chosen Chevy
    Player of the Game.  The decision will be difficult.  Thomas Parks and
    Grant Parks also played very good games.
    
    				-30-
17.887CAM::WAYHWRFC ClydescaleThu Apr 04 1991 12:345
dan'l,

that gots me rollward....8^)

'Saw
17.888Indiana will be a Top Five team WORDY::NAZZAROUMass: NIT Final Four now; NCAA nextThu Apr 04 1991 15:157
    That kid Henderson goin' to Indiana i far from a widebody.
    I saw him in that McDonald's game and he looked great!!!
    Court awareness, passes the ball very well, could sky, and
    had a nice touch.  I see him as a small forward, with Cheaney
    as the off guard nexted season for IU.
    
    NAZZ
17.889SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Thu Apr 04 1991 15:299
    
    re: -2
    
    	The ref, Pavia, might not be around next year.  You see, he is
    in a battle with cancer last I heard.  So, it is possible that he might
    not be around next year.
    
    								bill..g.
    
17.890STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishThu Apr 04 1991 15:571
    Pavia's been battling cancer for the last 7 years....
17.891Chilcutt, Fox, and Rice: "Thanks for the memories ..."RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Apr 04 1991 16:0356
Congrats to the Nerds for finally taking Coach K over the top.  They 
wholeheartedly earned this one, demolishing everyone unfortunate
enough to get in their way in route to Indianapolis, and then knocking
off the best college basketball team of all time, IMO.  Was there ever
any doubt that they'd beat Kansas to capture Title #1?  Not in my
mind.

Having said this I'll quickly add that I think Duke's fans are the most
bratty, obnoxious, and nerdy fans ever to walk the planet, and that I
was wholeheartedly rooting for the Dean-disciple lead Jayhawks to shut
'em up.  During the KU-Carolina game their fans:

o Rooted loud and long for Kansas
o Chanted "see ya ... see ya" when Dean got the heave-ho (more on that
  later)
o Chanted "ACC ... ACC" when Kansas went on their run and Dean called
  timeout.  

Duke fans are classless, which makes me even more happy about the hard
time I gave the two (2) nerdy Nerd fans in front of me when we kicked their
a$$ during the ACC Tournament!  [Many :^)'s thinking about *that* happy
occasion, I'll tell ya ...]

As for Carolina, I'm proud of our season but disapointed at how poorly
we played against Kansas.  Our seniors shot 8-for-36.  Rick Fox was a major
disapointment, shooting 5-for-22, including 0-for-7 for 3-point tries.
If Fox even has an *average* game, we're in the finals.  We missed a ton 
of easy shots from in close, and numerous wide open shots from the outside.  
Still, I think we could've shown better patience.  Too many times we took the 
first available shot and, even if it's a good one, that's not Carolina 
basketball.  

As to Dean getting ejected, well, I think it's safe to say Mr. Pete Pavia
will never work another Final 4 in his life.  He completely lost control
of his senses, and should only be thankful that his shameless and ridiculous
ejection didn't alter the outcome of the game.  For his own safety and
well-being though, I sincerely hope they never schedule him to work in
the Dean Dome.

Why did he do it?  IMO it all dates back to John Feinstein who, after having
his alma mater scorched in the ACC Tournament finals, went on a Dean-bashing
campaign.  His well-publicized comments brought out an unprecidented level
of anti-Dean sentiment in the media that intensified after the Temple game.
There's no doubt in my mind Pavia, who already had a rabbit-ear reputation,
decided Mr. Smith would not get the best of him.  I suspect he's sitting
back now and strutting his chest, proud that he called his first technical
when Dean said "They're pushing us, too.", and the second when he said
"How much time do I have?".  (For those that say he called 'em cause Dean
was out of the coaches box I'd refer you to Hank Nichols himself who,
in the midst of defending this jerk said the ref has to use judgement whether
to assess a T when the coach leaves the box.  The simple fact is coaches
are out of the box *all the time*.)


- ACC Chris
    
17.892And what was wrong with what the Duke fans did? Your list says nothing.SHALOT::MEDVIDat scorer's table for extended blowThu Apr 04 1991 16:2414
>He completely lost control
>of his senses, and should only be thankful that his shameless and ridiculous
>ejection didn't alter the outcome of the game.  
    
    The same can be said for Dean too.  The ejection didn't alter the
    outcome because Dean had already blown it.
    
    Of course Chris would have us believe Dean had nothing to do with his
    own ejection.  Add that to the list, folks.
    
    "They're pushing us too!"  Wah, wah, wah!  (I bet that's all he said. 
    Yeah Right.)
    
    	--dan'l
17.8937221::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu Apr 04 1991 16:4946
    Chris,
    
    The thing about the Duke fans is probably right to a certain extent
    because they can be as obnoxious as the players are classy.  Clever,
    but obnoxious.
    
    We've had the following discussion before, and while you may not like
    it, I can see why they wouldn't cheer for the Heels.  Just because both
    schools are in the ACC, it doesn't necessarily mean that the fans from
    one school can or should cheer for the other school.  In Duke's case,
    why the hell would they want to cheer for their bitterest rival?  If I
    were a Duke fan, I know I'd be as anti-Heel as I could get in that
    situation.  If I were a Carolina fan, I probably wouldn't have cheered
    for Duke, either.
    
    To use me for an example, my college team is in the Yankee Conference
    in football and the Atlantic 10 in everything else.  I don't have a
    personal bitter rivalry with anyone in the Atlantic 10, since I wasn't
    in school when we started playing these guys regularly.  I can
    therefore admit that while Temple is our bitterest rivalry in
    basketball right now, I can cheer for them and proudly did.  I would
    imagine that anyone who is at UMass now probably would be totally
    anti-Temple.
    
    When it comes to football rivalries past and present, it's a different
    story and there are different grades of rivalry.  You all know how I
    feel about Boston College.  I don't cheer for them in anything - period
    - even though, on occasion, they do represent the East well.  The
    University of Connecticut is the same thing.  The rivalry when I was in
    school was nasty in everything, and the only time I cheer for the
    Huskies is when they play BC.  I will cheer for New Hampshire and Maine
    in other sports, particularly hockey, because the rivalry, while
    intense, was never dirty - just lots of mutual respect - and I would
    have cheered for Maine over BU in the recent NCAA hockey final.  My
    feelings about URI and BU are mixed - sometimes I will cheer for them,
    sometimes I won't.  If there's anyone from the Yankee Conference who I
    cheer for in football when they're not playing us, it would be New
    Hampshire and Maine, but I have to admit I feel funny about it.  I
    really don't have much of a personal hatred for Delaware, Villanova,
    Northeastern, Richmond, William and Mary or James Madison since we
    didn't play them when I was in school.  Holy Cross is in the same
    category as Connecticut.  I used to really hate the Ivies (the
    inferiority complex of a state school) but now I just sort of ignore
    them.
    
    John
17.894CAM::WAYHWRFC ClydescaleThu Apr 04 1991 16:5814
>    - even though, on occasion, they do represent the East well.  The
>    University of Connecticut is the same thing.  The rivalry when I was in
>    school was nasty in everything, and the only time I cheer for the
>    Huskies is when they play BC.  I will cheer for New Hampshire and Maine

>    didn't play them when I was in school.  Holy Cross is in the same
>    category as Connecticut.  I used to really hate the Ivies (the


John, John....can we talk?  

[8^)]

'Saw
17.895CHIEFF::CHILDSI'm doin' fine-e-e-e-e on cloud 9Thu Apr 04 1991 17:1812
 HEW HAW HEE HAW Well we waited 4 days for it but that was sure one pretty
 weak explanation for the choke and the attack of Pavia as the villian can
 I dare say has my thighs a_shutterin'....

 hahahaaa

 one question Chris, the same one I asked Dan, why did he pull Montross with
 a 9 point lead that Montross was the main reason they had it. He was Mr.
 Windex for them and sky high to be home in Indiana....

 mike
17.896Gaspipe and Chicken Bones do in UNC....CAM::WAYHWRFC ClydesdaleThu Apr 04 1991 17:3010
EXTRA EXTRA EXTRA


ACC Chris' excuse as weak as the excuse used by Captain Queeg in the
Caine Mutiny....

READ ALL ABOUT IT.....


'Saw
17.897Feinstein T'eed Smith ???SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Apr 04 1991 17:3238
17.8987221::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu Apr 04 1991 17:405
    'Saw, there's nothing to talk about.  I would have nothing against you
    even if you'd gone to UConn.  I just don't like their athletic teams. 
    I have no ill will towards Central Connecticut, either.
    
    John
17.89929 wins thanks to talent; 6 losses thanks to Dean. Right, guys?!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Apr 04 1991 17:5014
    re: Montross
    
    Eric played a total of 19 minutes, which is far above his season
    average.  He was 3-for-4 from the field, but only had 3 rebounds.
    Dean sat him down after he picked up his fourth foul, undoubtedly
    thinking he'd be a handy guy to have around at the end.  Unfortunately
    by that time we were in comeback mode and had no use for him.
    
    Blaming the coach for your team shooting poorly is absurd, but par for
    the course.  I find the backlash against you Dean bigots 
    humorous though.  Seems we've picked up a few fans as a result!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.900RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Apr 04 1991 17:545
    Did they choke?  Well, if having your seniors shoot 8-for-36 is
    choking, they choked.  Happy?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.901CHIEFF::CHILDSI'm doin' fine-e-e-e-e on cloud 9Thu Apr 04 1991 17:5621
 Chris you've skated the issue as usual. I'm talking first half 9-point lead
 for NC. Montross had score a few buckets, blocked a few shots and gotten all
 of those three rebounds in about a 5 minute stretch and Dean pulled him. 
 Kansas had been owning the boards up till that point and clogging the lane 
 down low defensively. Montross effectively changed all that with his size
 but because he's a freshman and not a senior like Brick Fox (tm), Chillycut
 and Lice he's out of there....

 sad sad sad....

 baiting the ref was one thing wether the ref had a quick whistle or not is
 another but with your team down 5 and 35 seconds to go why, oh why did he
 shake everyone's hand like the game was over? Especially when you consider
 they had already forced KU into 2 turnovers within the last few minutes of
 play and had given them fits all day on the inbound play?

 the guy bites, admit it, it'll free your soul son..........


 mike
17.903CAM::WAYHWRFC ClydesdaleThu Apr 04 1991 18:037
>    'Saw, there's nothing to talk about.  I would have nothing against you
>    even if you'd gone to UConn.  I just don't like their athletic teams. 
>    I have no ill will towards Central Connecticut, either.
>    
>    John

8^)
17.904DECWET::METZGERThat's me in the spot.....light....Thu Apr 04 1991 18:4321
You think you've got it bad...

Here's the situation for my inlaws...

Live 15 minutes outside of hartford
Father graduated from Umass
#1 son graduated from UMass
#2 daughter (#1 in my book) graduated from Umass

All they get is Uconn information which has turned them into rabid Uconn 
haters. I've never seen a family root harder for the local team to lose then 
watching them root aginst Uconn in everything...


It's kind of funny seeing my dad and 3 members of our family graduated from 
Umass also....


Metz

17.905Good example of what I'm up against. RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Apr 04 1991 19:3911
We've got Doug Ross insisting that Montross is a stiff who plays too much
and Mike Childs insisting Montross is a superstar who oughta be out there
40 minutes a game.  Both Childs and Ross will, of course, enthusiastically
agree Dean Smith's handling of Montross is a prime example of his bad
coaching.

Is it any wonder the impartial observers are starting to pull for the Heels?


- ACC Chris
    
17.906take the good with the bad?HBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughThu Apr 04 1991 19:5110
Chris,

Do you think that Dean Smith's handling of Montross is a prime example of
his good coaching? How about his handling of Rozier?

Also, could you indicate what you think Dean's contribution was to the
Kansas loss?

Impartially yours,
TTom
17.907No, I think we'll wait for the Doug Childs obfuscatory replyRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Apr 04 1991 20:017
    Nice try TTom, but you ain't gonna put *me* on the defensive when I've
    got 'em on the run.
    
    No siree.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.908More ...SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Apr 04 1991 20:1824
 You've got who on the run, Soup ???   Good one.  
 
 For what it's worth, I'll give Dean Smith credit for the improvement that
 Eric Montross showed over the full season.   I'm not sure we saw last
 year's high school player of the year out there at the end of the Heels'
 season but he was getting some of the tougher boards and he was converting
 on the critical garbage buckets in traffic in the paint.
 
 He's not a superstar and he's not a stiff.  The fact is that he was
 playing a good game against Kansas and Dean yanked him.   Chilcutt should
 have grabbed some pine and Montross should have replaced him for keeps.  
 Dean didn't do that because the system says he shouldn't.  He blew it ...
 at least that much.
 
 As for Fox, there's no excuse for even letting him put up 22 shots to
 begin with.  Again, Dean's lived his whole coaching life insisting that
 the seniors should shoot.  I'd have told Fox to take a powder and I'd have
 told Hubert Davis to fill 'em up and don't stop until I say so.  But Dean
 couldn't do that and repudiate 30 years of "coaching" in the meantime.
 
 Nope, his seniors faded on him and he took the powder with 00:35 left that
 he should have had them take long before that.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.909blue line/light specialHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughThu Apr 04 1991 20:2814
Dean chokes another big game and somehow a Tar Heel can translate that
into having someone on the run.

It's not surprising. I listened to the Carolina Blue Line (or whatever
that radio show is). Folks, I'm here to say that the Tar Heels love Dean
Smith more now than at any time in his coaching career. Every caller
- it's one of those "call the coach" formats - took great pains to go on
about how proud they were of Dean and his program. I kept imagining it
was on Saturday Night live and everyone kept saying "Not" or, at least,
that Mr T could intercept some of those calls and bring on the shuddering
thighs and let them have those lines about Dean quitting when the game
wasn't over.

TTom
17.910RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOThen Came BronsonThu Apr 04 1991 21:2218
    Chris,
    
    As Bob Hunt said - who do you have on the run?  You came in hear
    whining about Pavia and the Duke fans.  And have refused to even think
    about admitting that Deano made some coaching mistakes vs. Kansas.
    
    And Chris, cain you imagine if say, John Thompson got himself chucked
    out of a game with :35 seconds left and the champeenship game ticket on
    the line?  We'd be crucified  in here - he'd be called the worst coach
    ever.   Dean does it, and it isn't his fault, or its reason to like him
    even more.  Yikes.  
    
    It was a bonehaid move.  UNC still had a darn good chance, especially
    given they had just made a few steals against Kansas, and given the
    fact that KU is one of the worst free throw shooting clubs I've ever
    seen....
    
    JD
17.911Soup And His Merry Band ???SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsThu Apr 04 1991 22:4653
 This "on the run" thing is actually kinda funny in a sad and demented way.
 
 Prior to the Kansas game, the anti-Deans bashed the Rev so hard, so
 viciously, so dead-eye perfectly, and so convincingly (Dan's feeble
 rebuttals notwithstanding ...) that of few of the otherwise neutral noters
 out there actually got somewhat of a Richard Steele complex and begged us
 to ease up just a bit on the poor buffoon.
 
 Nowhere do I remember seeing any of those new Dean sympathizers come up
 with any kind of factual or convincing counterclaim to the charges levied
 against the master gaspiper.  No, they just said they were going to root
 him (sad, to say, I'm afraid ...) in order to level the playing field just
 a bit.  Remember, this was all before the game, mind you.
 
 So, what happens ???  Dean goes out and does *EXACTLY* what the bashers
 said he would eventually do.  I mean we, the bashers, could not have
 scripted that Kansas debacle any better than what actually happened.  Not
 no way, not no how.
 
 So, his loyal subject comes in here *AFTER* the Kansas game, reads a few
 of the pre-game sympathy notes from the new Dean symphs and then claims
 that he's the head of some new post-loss loyal legion of Dean-sketeers.  
 Way too funny.
 
 Unless I'm reading a different conference, I haven't seen a single one of
 those poor unfortunate souls come back in here after the loss and say ...
 
    "Gee, I'm sure glad I started rooting for Carolina just in time for
    that great Kansas game.  What a coach!!!  What a program!!!  What a
    great group of young men!!!   Yessiree, Dean, I'm a Heel-For-Life now."
 
 Au contraire, they've all sheepishly but quietly gone back to their
 otherwise neutral pursuits and are probably just happy that no one has
 called them back in here to face a thoroughly righteous tribunal of "We
 Told You So" bashers.
 
 But the Soupster here thinks he is leading some kind of new army of the
 faithful.   Cut it out, please, I can't take it.   You are spinning in the
 breeze all by yourself, mon ami Soup.   As butt nekked and aired out as
 Pepper had you not three and half short weeks ago.
 
 Your mentor, your hero, your preacher, your reason for living ... Dean
 Smith has left you completely defenseless against any and all attacks. 
 Smith shook hands with each and every one of the Kansas bench as a goodbye
 sign of resignation to the loss.   He might as well have shaken *your*
 hand, too.   You fought a good fight but he left you standing there and
 then he ever so smugly walked out of the building and right out of your
 fondest dreams.   With 35 seconds to go, he packed up his troubles in his
 old kit bag and smiled, boy, smiled.   And there went your bubble ...
 
 Pop.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.912ps_ I like the idea - drop the ACC bitCSTEAM::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Fri Apr 05 1991 01:0913
    
    Hey, THIS IS FUN!!!!
    
    
    However, I think I got's ta agree with those who say Dean blew it big
    time.  IMO, no make that IMHO, Montross was the difference ands had he
    continued to play (even a leetle bit more) the outcome *may* have been
    different.
    
    Sorry Chris you lose this arguement....
    
    Kev
    
17.913AXIS::ROBICHAUDLincolnKennedyMLK,ChildsRossHuntFri Apr 05 1991 10:362
    
    
17.914This pretty much sums things up.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Apr 05 1991 11:4350
> So, what happens ???  Dean goes out and does *EXACTLY* what the bashers
> said he would eventually do.  I mean we, the bashers, could not have
> scripted that Kansas debacle any better than what actually happened.  Not
> no way, not no how.

The bashers had been predicting a defeat for Carolina every step of
the way during this years NCAA Tournament.  We finally lose and you 
come in crowing about what a brilliant prognosticator you are.  Gimmee
a break.

The bashers would have us believe that Carolina was an overwhelming 
favorite to win the whole enchilada this year.  According to them,
*we're* UNLV, expected to win every time we lay our baby blues onto
the floor.  

Well the facts show that this team overachieved, and overachieved quite 
nicely.  29 wins.  An ACC Championship.  A finish in the Top 4 in the polls.  
A trip to the Final 4.  Not bad but alas, a loss to a Kansas team that
had just recently demolished a solid Indiana 5 and an ultra-talented
Arkansas squad points out that, yes indeedy, Dean Smith can't coach a
lick.  Unreal.

We lost to Kansas for one very simple reason: we didn't shoot well.  If
you don't believe *me* pick up this weeks SI, which says exactly the
same thing.  Coaches don't make shots for their players.  We didn't shoot
well and lost, plain and simple.  The shots were there and they didn't
go in.  No excuses, no obfuscating, no nothin'.

The fact that so many neutral observers have reared their ugly head against
the vicious and wholly subjective assault you and your legion have unleashed
against Dean *does* make me smile though, and I disagree that they'd have
been turned off by the KU game.  The objective observer would have concluded
that:

1. We lost cause we didn't shoot well, not because of any so-called choking
   by Dean.

2. Dean getting tossed was completely unjustified and uncalled for.

One final important detail - the 'ACC' in 'ACC Chris' *stays*, despite my
(perhaps unwise) admission of rooting against the Nerds.  But consider
the parable of the prodigal son, and position me as the father welcoming
home his wayward boy after they just captured our first Title since 1983.

Welcome home, boys!  (But *please* try and tone down your 
pizza_face_greasy_haired_coke_bottle_glasses_high_SAT fans.  Please?!)


- ACC Chris
    
17.915CAM::WAYHWRFC ClydesdaleFri Apr 05 1991 11:5314
It's like this:

	Hare Smith-na, Hare Smith-na, Smith-na Smith-na Hare Smith-na....


That's what happens when you get off the bus in Chapel Hill.  They're 
ain't no Krishnas to meet you and try to sell you flowers with that
glassy eyed vacant stare.  Nope, these folks all have baby blue
contacts in, and they're chanting "Hare Smith-ha"....


Sounds like one o' them cult things to me.....

'Saw
17.917and you still haven't answer my simple questionAGNT99::CHILDSI'm doin' fine-e-e-e-e on cloud 9Fri Apr 05 1991 13:0728
excccuuuuuussssssseeeeeee meeeeeee guyyyyysssssss buttttttt it''''''''s
harrrrddddddddddd toooooooo tyyyyyyyyppppppppeee wwwwwwwhhhen yyyyouuuurrree


ooooonnnnnnn tttttttthhhhhhhheeeeeeeee rrrrrrrrrrruuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnn



 For the record I do not believe that Montross is either a superstar or stiff.
 I do feel that he has improved a great deal by the end of the year. Smith
 certainly deserves some credit for that. He deserves credit as a coach for
 running a clean program, for caring about his kids and teaching the a good
 feel for team play. As a game coach or a field general he bites the big one..
 He cannot or will not adapt to situations and expect that the system will
 carry his team on. For the most part the system does work and it carries the
 team through some tough games but the excellent loss is always there. The
 players change, the opposision changes, the building changes, the refs change
 but the system remains intact because the coach is always there to pull the
 strings and stubbornly refuses to adapt to a game situation so the end is
 enevitable another excellent loss...

 Bottom line he's a great recruiter, a good teacher, a lousy disciplanarian
 and  a lousy game coach. I wouldn't want my kids to play for him but if they
 had their hearts set on it I wouldn't diswade them....


 mike 
17.918sorry CharlesHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughFri Apr 05 1991 13:088
The USA Today noted that this has been a bad week for role models:

	Sugar Ray Leonard
	Diego Maradona 
	Charles Barkley 
	Dean Smith

TTom
17.919STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishFri Apr 05 1991 13:4228
    Let's put one thing in perspective, Under the rules and the
    circumstances of the situation, Dean was not undeserving of the 2nd
    technical.
    
    Why?
    
    1) He baited, complained, whined and cried about the reffing all game long
       (I taped the game and rewatched it last night to see how dominate
       Montross was and he was dominating Kansas). 
    
    2) After coaching for 30+ years and replacing hundreds of ballplayers
       that have fouled out, Dean knew how much time he had to replace Fox.
       He had no business being on the court supposedly asking a ref how
       much time he had(he knew how much time).  He only wanted to get them
       close so he could chew them out.  He was baiting the refs.  What he
       should have been doing is using that time to regroup his team, set
       the defense and plot his strategy for the last 35 seconds.  Being
       down by 5 with 35 seconds left is nothing with the 3-pointer.  Dean
       should have been coaching and instead he had given up.  If anything
       Dean giving up the game when so much was at stake should be enough
       to rile any Fan of the program.
    
    3) Dean has had more technical fouls in the NCAA tourney than Bobby 
       Knight, so he does lose his cool on the sideline and this is not
       a new thing for him.
    
    4) Pete Pavia will be in a final four before Dean is again....
    
17.920RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOThen Came BronsonFri Apr 05 1991 13:5124
    Chris,
    
    Yep, Dean doesn't shoot the ball.  However, leaving guys going for
    their mason's license in the game to fire away, simply because they are
    seniors is really stupid.  At the West regionals vs. Utah, UNLV was
    playing *horrible* in the first half.  Tark, who isn't the greatest
    game coach in the world, had enough.  He called time, and *benched*
    Augman, Hunt, Anthoney, etc - and dug deep into his slim bench to put
    some life in the club.  The message wasn't lost on his precious seniors
    - let me tell you.  When they came in they started to play like they
    were fighting for a job.  THey started to *drive* for the basket, move
    the ball around.
    
    Dean could have done that and sent a message tOo Fox especially - hey
    Rick - stop popping from outside - pass the ball around, drive - or you
    sit on the pine.  You know what that is called Chris?  Adapting to the
    situation.  Something Dean refused to do in the big enchilada.
    
    FWIW, they are already setting expectation, high expectation for Deano.
    The fab five frosh class will be *seniors* (gush, Dean, gush) in 1994 -
    when the Final Four is in Charlotte.  Will Deano be able to win it
    with a talented squad, virtually playing at home??  
    
    JD
17.921CAM::WAYHWRFC ClydesdaleFri Apr 05 1991 14:177
17.922Thypocrisy (tm) Lives!RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Apr 05 1991 15:2416
    In the 2nd round of the ACC Tournament against Virginia Rick was
    shooting badly and making stupid mistakes.  Dean sat him down, talked
    to him, and we went out and *made* all the big shots down the stretch. 
    
    In the Final 4 game against Kansas Rick was shooting badly and making
    stupid mistakes.  Dean sat him down, talked to him, and he went out and
    *missed* all the big shots down the stretch.
    
    Same player.  Same coach.  Same situation.  Different results.  Of
    course, if the bashers are to belived, Dean's to blame in the 2nd
    instance, but certainly not to receive credit in the first.
    
    You guys are *too*, *too* much.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.923CAM::WAYHWRFC ClydesdaleFri Apr 05 1991 15:2814
>    Same player.  Same coach.  Same situation.  Different results.  Of
>    course, if the bashers are to belived, Dean's to blame in the 2nd
>    instance, but certainly not to receive credit in the first.
>    
>    You guys are *too*, *too* much.


Nah, we don't just blindly worship someone who chokes big time in 
all the big games, and who won't adapt his system to the situation.

You can't make the guy a god if he don't have the credentials....


'Saw
17.924Still standin' Soup ???SHALOT::HUNTSwatch dogs and Diet Coke headsFri Apr 05 1991 15:33103
17.925CAM::WAYHWRFC ClydesdaleFri Apr 05 1991 15:4115
> Hey, 'Saw, I'd didn't see a "(tm)" reference when you used "Hare Smithna"
> a few notes back.  Careful, mon ami, or I'll have my lawyer, CJ Lamb, slap
> you silly with a "look and feel" lawsuit.  Yeah, and you'd be smiling your
> butt off the whole time, too, wouldn't ya ???


Oops.  Sorry Bob, I didn't realize that that expression was yours.
I honestly thought I was makin' it up on my own....  Great minds
think alike, I guess....

Can I make a reference to the Rev. Sun Myung Dean?   8^)

later,
'Saw
17.926CAM::WAYHWRFC ClydesdaleFri Apr 05 1991 15:411
regarding CJ, she was lookin' sharp in her bikini lasted night!
17.927Good players should play, even if freshmenSACT41::ROSSBeastie rhyme: pagoda, Abe VigodaSun Apr 07 1991 00:5927
>               <<< Note 17.905 by RHETT::KNORR "Carolina Blue" >>>
>                   -< Good example of what I'm up against.  >-
>
>We've got Doug Ross insisting that Montross is a stiff who plays too much
>and Mike Childs insisting Montross is a superstar who oughta be out there
>40 minutes a game.  Both Childs and Ross will, of course, enthusiastically
>agree Dean Smith's handling of Montross is a prime example of his bad
>coaching.

Wrong... wrong... wrong.  I was on business all last week, so I couldn't
respond, Chris, but you have totally misrepresented my view on Dean/Montross.
In my opinion, Dean should have played Montross MORE... he should have 
AVERAGED at least 20 minutes a game.  To play the top freshman center less than 
that is detrimental to the development of the player to the benefit of the
system.   Re-read my notes.  I've said repeatedly that if Montross had played
at IU, he would have played much more and most likely come further along in his
development this year.     But I still think he is less than he was hyped to
be.   A possible peak as a future backup NBA center, mainly because he's 7'1",
but he was given no opportunity to do show any more promise.

Kind of ruins your conspiracy theory... 

Now, if you ask me if Henrik Rodl should EVER see any playing time again,
I will say, "NEVER".  But Rodl has zero potential to be anything more than
a ten minute per game sub.    We expected more of Montross and were deprived
of the chance to see him play.

17.928This is it ... The Mother Of All Dean TheoriesSHALOT::HUNTDid Adam and Eve have navels ???Sun Apr 07 1991 02:46149
 On Thursday of this past week, "The Charlotte Observer" published one of
 those special commemorative celebration sections.  This one was called
 "Devil Of A Season" and it was, of course, a souvenir piece for happy Duke
 fans. 
 
 {I'll save the cynical thoughts about how it was just a bunch of reprints
 of articles from the previous couple of days and how it had more ads than
 real information and all that ... Simply put, Duke fans were sure to fold
 it up and stick it in a dusty drawer somewhere for posterity's sake.}
 
 But there was one very interesting section in this special section.  It
 was called something like "What Others Are Saying" and it was a reprinted
 collection of thoughts that other writers at other newspapers across the
 country had written about Duke's wins.
 
 And one of the out-of-town writers who was quoted was Bill Lyon from "The
 Philadelphia Inquirer".  Well, of course, having lived near Philly for all
 those years, I'm well familiar with Lyon's work.  He's a very thoughtful
 writer who usually has some very poignant and fascinating insights.
 
 And he did not disappoint ... Lyon chose to focus on a quote from Mike
 Krzyzewski concerning Bobby Hurley.     Someone had asked Krzyzewski after
 the stunning upset over Vegas just how Bobby Hurley was able to play so
 much better against UNLV this year than during last year's horrow show. 
 By now, everyone knows the story ... Hurley had to run to the bathroom
 last year and either throw up or poop out his guts and after he came back
 Anderson Hunt and Greg Anthony tore him apart.   And then this year, of
 course, Hurley stuck some crucial jumpers, played tough defense, and
 handled the ball quite nicely and was a big reason they won.  So, why the
 turnaround ...
 
 Well, Lyon found Krzyzewki's answer quite special indeed.  Krzyzewksi
 responded that ..."That is what college kids are supposed to do.  They are
 supposed to learn from their failures."  Lyon went on to praise the
 bluntly obvious and acutely accurate nature of this response.  No need to
 reproduce the entire article here ...I think you get the point.  He
 thought that Krzyzewski had given the perfect answer to the question.  He
 even concluded by admitting somewhat astonishingly that maybe sometimes
 there is something mystical to this "student-athlete" thing in spite of
 all the well-documented abuses of the concept.
 
 Okay, I can hear you ... Where are you going with this thing, Bob ???  I
 know, I know, I've belabored it but stick with me ... I'm not done yet.
 
 I thought some more about what Krzyzewski had said and I realized to my
 own amazement that this philosophy of learning from your errors doesn't
 stop when you complete your education.  It's supposed to be this way
 forever.  You're supposed to try, fail, and then try again until you get
 it right.   You're supposed to puke and crap your guts out the first time
 and the second time you're supposed to spit nails and crap thunder.
 
 I thought a lot about how easily you forget this when you get a little
 older.  I thought about how more and more we shrink from risk so we can
 avoid failure.   As much as I love Digital, it's sad to admit that this is
 very true here.   We all talk the talk but very few of us actually walk
 the walk.
 
 And then it hit me ... Like the proverbial ton of bricks ... Like when
 Lucy yells "THAT'S IT!!!" so loud that Charlie Brown falls over backwards.
 
 That's it ... That's what the problem is with Dean Smith.   (See, I told
 ya I'd get here with this.)  That's what's wrong with ol' Snuff.   He
 hasn't learned a single damn thing from any of his failures over the last
 25 years or so and he's dooming himself to repeat every single one of
 them, isn't he ???   I didn't pick "25 years" at random.   Smith did not
 succeed in his first 5 seasons at Carolina.   To be fair, he *had* to have
 had learned what to do from those dismal early seasons when he hit his
 stride in the mid-1960s.
 
 But he hasn't learned anything worthwhile since that time period ... since
 he started underachieving in post-season.   He hasn't learned from his
 loss to Wooden and Alcindor, he hasn't learned from the loss to Al
 McGuire, nor to Bobby Knight twice, nor to Rollie Massimino, nor even to
 Jim Boeheim and Steve Fisher, two coaches who're even *worse* on game days
 than Smith is.
 
 He still plays the same "system" game in and game out, month in and month
 out, year in and year out, no changes throughout each of his players'
 careers.    The shot clock is introduced and he doesn't make any changes
 to it.  The trey comes in and no changes.   The players are bigger,
 faster, taller, stronger, quicker, smarter and more skilled and he still
 refuses to learn from his mistakes.
 
 What did we see this year ???    He was "too proud" to call a timeout to
 stop a loss to Georgia Tech.   He was "too stubborn" to play a zone
 against Duke in Chapel Hill with the entire regular season riding on the
 game.  He couldn't make the adjustments when he found himself looking in a
 mirror at himself when they lined up against Kansas.   Instead, he flailed
 about helplessly (good thing somebody removed all the sharp objects), made
 93 frantic revolving door-like substitutions, said "How much time, how
 much time, how much time" to the ref with a dull, stunned look on his
 face, wandered out of his box, and then shook hands with everyone and
 excused himself.
 
 The quotes from the Kansas players in this week's SI hint at what I'm
 saying here ... They all said that the two systems and styles of play were
 almost eerily identical.  The same plays, the same defenses, the same hand
 signals even ...   They all said that Roy Williams told them that the two
 teams were canceling each other out and the team that "free-lanced" better
 was going to win it.   Kansas was able to play outside the "system" and
 Carolina couldn't.  Fox, the senior, laid brick after brick after brick
 while Montross, the freshman, cooled his heels.
 
 How could this have happened ???  It's really quite simple, isn't it ??? 
 He's forgotten that you're not supposed to repeat your mistakes.  He
 hasn't remembered that you're supposed to learn from your failures and
 come back stronger the next time.   He's been down this road before ...
 He's been to the Sweet Sixteen 11 straight years.   He hasn't learned one
 thing from any of those previous trips that was the tiniest bit useful
 that could have helped him this time around.
 
 Thank about "Hoosiers".   In the beginning, Norman Dale was "The Law,
 Absolutely And Without Discussion".  Remember the "four passes, four
 passes" system ???   Remember he benched Ray who shot too soon and then he
 played with only 4 players rather than put him back in after somebody else
 fouled out ???
 
 But what won it for the "TEAM!" at the end when it counted ???   With time
 running out against the heavy favorite, he called the play that would have
 used Jimmie Chitwood as a decoy.   But the entire team looked at him in
 stunned amazement that he could even think about putting the ball in
 anyone's hand except Jimmie's.   Finally, Jimmie said "I'll make it." and
 Norman Dale *instantly* saw that they were right and that he was wrong.  
 Swish.  Game.  History.  Immortality.
 
 I know it's just Hollywood but it fits in this case.   Dean Smith *NEVER*
 would have made that adjustment at that point.   He *NEVER* would have
 wavered from the "system".   Thank God the Hickory Huskers weren't coached
 by the Reverend Dean E. Smith.
 
 Suffice it to say that I've decided that I'm *glad*, that's right, *GLAD*
 that Dean Smith coaches the team I most like to see lose.   Dean Smith is
 an incredible recruiter and will probably always have more talent on his
 squad than in my beloved Wahoos' lineup.  I understand this to be a fact
 of life.  Inevitably, there will be more Carolina wins over Virginia than
 the other way around that I'd like to see.
 
 The absolute *WORST* thing that could happpen now or anytime soon is
 Dean's retirement.  As long as he sticks to his guns so hardheadedly,
 we'll have more Kansas games to gleefully enjoy.   The worst thing that
 could possibly happen to those who love seeing Carolina lose like they
 just did is to hire Roy Williams to come back to Chapel Hil to assume
 command.   That would be a nightmare.   That man can recruit and he can
 coach and he hasn't fossilized his brain yet so he's still learning from
 his errors.    
 
 Roy Williams in Chapel Hill would be a monster.  Long Live Dean.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.929Jes' tryin' to practice what Ah preach ...SHALOT::HUNTDid Adam and Eve have navels ???Sun Apr 07 1991 02:4710
 Oh, and one other thing ... I was wrong about Bobby Hurley.   I took a
 shot at him earlier this year and said, based on road losses to UVA and NC
 State, that he couldn't play well on the road against better point guards.
 
 I was wrong.  Those two games were not a trend.  In fact, they were just
 glitches.  Hurley improved all year long (under Krzyzewski's guidance) and
 he was every bit as valuable as Laettner was down the stretch run.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
17.930MorT should be proud - he's taught you well. :^(28964::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Apr 08 1991 12:507
    Retitle 17.928 from 'The Mother Of All Dean Theories' to 'The Mother Of
    All Obfuscation' and you'd be on the mark Ketch.
    
    What a load of sheet ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.931Quick, Chris, ask how much time you have left!34223::MEDVIDNo I was not pushing that timeMon Apr 08 1991 13:5815
>               <<< Note 17.930 by 28964::KNORR "Carolina Blue" >>>
>             -< MorT should be proud - he's taught you well.  :^( >-
>
>    Retitle 17.928 from 'The Mother Of All Dean Theories' to 'The Mother Of
>    All Obfuscation' and you'd be on the mark Ketch.
>    
>    What a load of sheet ...
>    
>    
>    - ACC Chris
    
    I don't see any answers to any of Bob's questions to you, Chris.  Who's
    on the run now?
    
    	--dan'l
17.932BobHunt's notes > 100 lines. (Who's it remind you of?)28964::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Apr 08 1991 12:5940
> Here goes ...  Your big chance to prove us all wrong.  Name for us, if you
> will, just one, any one, of Carolina's 29 victories this year where they
> were significantly overmatched in talent by the other team and thus it
> took Dean's brilliant coaching to make the victorious difference.

What a ridiculous comment.  (And that's saying something, given
your recent performances.  Did you know that the ONLY question that
infuriated CoachK during his pre-Final 4 press conference was one which
compared his Duke team with the Minnesota Vikings.  His curt reply was
that college isn't the pros, and it's ridiculous to compare the two.
Think about that the next time the names Buddy Ryan and Dean Smith pop 
into your head ...)

One thing that me and Dean have always done is steadfastly refuse to
denegrate our players.  We get good players.  We get good kids.  I'm
not going to argue that.  When they move outof Chapel Hill I root for
them almost as much as when they played at Carolina.  It hurts me that
JR's having such a lousy year.  It makes me happy that Kenny Smith has
come into his own.  It pleases me that guys like Jeff Lebo, Jimmy Black, 
Phil Ford, John Kuester, George Karl, Roy Williams, Eddie Fogler, Larry 
Brown, Doug Moe, Matt Doherty, and many others have gone on to coach, 
each having various degrees of success.  In short, I WILL NOT take the 
easy way out (like the master of obfuscation, MrT) and say our players 
stink in order to promote the achievements of Dean Smith.

Does this mean that I think we always have more talent than the opposition?
No.  I will say that I don't think we played a team all year long that
had as much *depth* as us.  (BTW, depth is something that requires more
than talent.  You have to have a coach who has the guts to use his bench.)
Sometimes this gives you a big edge, other times hardly any edge at all.  
But in terms of the 5 players who receive the majority of the playing time 
I'd say any number of teams were as strong or stronger than us this year.  

I'd put Virginia in this category.  Stith, Crotty, Jeffries/Blundin, 
Turner, and Oliver are clearly a stronger unit than Fox, Rice, Chilcutt, 
Lynch, and Davis.  Let me see now, what was our record against the Cavs this
year?  Oh yea, THREE - AND - ZERO.  Haw haw haw!!!!111


- ACC Chris
17.933Soup claims "truth" in 6-to-5 comparisonSHALOT::HUNTDid Adam and Eve have navels ???Mon Apr 08 1991 14:1725
17.934Fox and Stith a wash?! Haw haw haw!!!111RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Apr 08 1991 14:0088
I've whittled your "note" (some would say "book") down to a few relevant
points.  If I've missed any that don't reek of subjectivity, let me know.

In regards to Dean's system I observe three (3) criticisms:

> 1. The shot clock is introduced and he doesn't make any changes
>    to it.  

> 2. The trey comes in and no changes.   

> 3. The players are bigger, faster, taller, stronger, quicker, smarter and 
>    more skilled and he still refuses to learn from his mistakes.

All three (3) of these highlight the simple fact that you don't understand
Dean's system.  Consult with TTom for details - he knows it as well as me.
If he can find and put on his 'Intellectual Honesty' cap he'll have to 
disagree with you on every count because, quite simply, Dean most certainly
*HAS* incorporated the shot clock (we run an uptempo offense that wouldn't
be phased with a 30-second clock), we *DO* incorporate the 3-point shot
(we've been at or near the top of the ACC in both attempts and makes since
the shot clock came into existence) and the system has *ALWAYS* recognized
the talents of our players.  (Uptempo offense and pressure defense
facilitates the better athletes, which in turn aids in recruiting.)
 

You also present three (3) criticisms of Dean's coaching this year:

> 1. He was "too proud" to call a timeout to stop a loss to Georgia Tech.   

> 2. He was "too stubborn" to play a zone against Duke in Chapel Hill with 
>    the entire regular season riding on the game.  

> 3. He couldn't make the adjustments when he found himself looking in a
>    mirror at himself when they lined up against Kansas.   

On point #1 I agree, Dean needed a quicker TO.  Some teams need time-outs
to settle themselves down.  He learned that this was such a team and, in
an identicical situation a few weeks later, called one during a Wake run.

On point #2 Dean admitted this himself.  He'd rather play man-to-man cause
he believes it will benefit in the long run.  While we lost the regular
season to Duke that day I think you'll agree that in the ACC Tournament
Finals we played nothing but pressure man-to-man defense, and played it
quite well, thank you.

The Kansas loss can be attributed to nothing except bad shooting.  The
J-hawks did do better in the freelance offense, but their players are
much more suited to that style.  We got good shots out of the offense
(probably could've gotten *better* shots with more patience) but they
didn't go down.  If Fox breaks out of his shooting slump (something
he's repeatedly shown the ability to do throughout his career) we win
the game.  If Dean pulls him in favor of, say, Brian Reese, and we lose,
you'd have been *all* over his case, asking how the heck he could bench
the player that got him to the dance.  (Go ahead and deny it.  20/20
hindsight vision is certainly your right as an intellectually dishonest
observer ... :^( )


> Dean Smith is an incredible recruiter and will probably always have more 
> talent on his squad than in my beloved Wahoos' lineup.  I understand this 
> to be a fact of life.  Inevitably, there will be more Carolina wins over 
> Virginia than the other way around that I'd like to see.

And I hope you throughly enjoy every one of those losses, cause I sure
will enjoy the wins.  Always have, always will.  If it makes you feel
better noting that we've got *so* much talent, fine and dandy.  Wouldn't
make me feel any better, but clearly we approach things differently.
 

> The absolute *WORST* thing that could happpen now or anytime soon is
> Dean's retirement.  

Ah, at last we agree on something.  This is a day that I try not to think
about - try to push into the deep recesses of my mind.  And yet we're
all mortal - even Dean.  Someday he'll hang up his whistle and assume
a life after basketball.  Maybe he'll get himself elected to Congress or
something, just to kill some post-basketball time.

 
> Roy Williams in Chapel Hill would be a monster.  Long Live Dean.

Aren't you forgetting that Roy admits wholeheartedly that Dean taught
him everything he knows about coaching?  Course we wouldn't want to
give Dean any credit for this, now would we?!


- ACC Chris
    
17.935Kansas Coach Roy Williams ... I *LIKE* it.SHALOT::HUNTDid Adam and Eve have navels ???Mon Apr 08 1991 14:5657
17.936Noticed you drop the system argument right-quick. (Good move...)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Apr 08 1991 15:1012
    re: .-1  (Roy Williams)
    
    Ah yes, good ole Thypocrisy (tm) in action again, Ketch-style.  Trumpet
    the virtues of Coach Williams without uttering a single mention of the
    fact that he learned it all from Dean Smith.
    
    And you wonder why you've got a credibility problem?  (Reflected in the
    fact that neutral observers are leaving your sad-sack holy war in 
    droves ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.93793 substitutions? and I though Stomper was bad with the subsMAXWEL::CHILDSOut of reach, is out of touchMon Apr 08 1991 15:1230
>The Kansas loss can be attributed to nothing except bad shooting.  The
>J-hawks did do better in the freelance offense, but their players are
>much more suited to that style.  We got good shots out of the offense
>(probably could've gotten *better* shots with more patience) but they
>didn't go down.  If Fox breaks out of his shooting slump (something
>he's repeatedly shown the ability to do throughout his career) we win
>the game.  If Dean pulls him in favor of, say, Brian Reese, and we lose,
>you'd have been *all* over his case, asking how the heck he could bench
>the player that got him to the dance.  (Go ahead and deny it.  20/20
>hindsight vision is certainly your right as an intellectually dishonest
>observer ... :^( )


 No it can be BLAM(tm) on a system that seniors must play and an idiot of
 a coach you get's tossed while down 5 with 35 seconds to go. Giving the
 opposision two free throws and the ball. You sir are the one using
 the intellectually dishonesty...


>Aren't you forgetting that Roy admits wholeheartedly that Dean taught
>him everything he knows about coaching?  Course we wouldn't want to
>give Dean any credit for this, now would we?!


Strickly lip service to the old coot...sure he learned a few things from
Snuffy, like how to kick his butt on the court. HEEEEEE HAAAWWW...

mike     

17.938Sublime. Just sublime it was...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina Blew. Most Excellent!Mon Apr 08 1991 15:1539
    >Did they choke?
    
    No, their coach choked.  He overcoached (93 substitutions on a team
    rich with seniors?!) and he totally lost his composure at the end.
    Also, perhaps the horrid shooting had to do with the fack that his
    players were shuttling on and off the court.  A "G" coach woulda seed
    that poor Rick wouldn't be able to buy a basket and would either 1) 
    run some plays to git him under the basket with the ball, or 2) sent
    his shots over to other players with some touch.  Letting Rick persist
    in his frustration cost the Blews at least 20 points.  'Snuffy also
    failed miserably at exploiting his depth underneath.  
    
    Worst of all, he cost his team a chance to win - or have we forgotten
    that the Blews have one a the best trey shooters in Hubert and they were 
    going up against the worst FT shooting ever?
    
    >"the game was over at that point."
    
    5 points down with 35 seconds to go and the game's over?  Typical Smif'
    propaganda.  He deserved the T, nay, he *demanded* it!  
    
    The Kansas game stands as a concrete, irrefutable example of why poor
    'Snuf is a measly 1-33: wretched Big Game coaching.  He overcoached and
    lost his cool, and cost his squad a shot at a team they'd blown out by
    30 only a few weeks before FOR A TITLE.
    
    In short, the Antis saw their (already established) theory fully borne
    out.  The only contribution this latest example of bad Big Game coaching
    by Reverend Underachiement was the GEEKY dimension that Smif', ever the
    innovater, injected into the annual proceedings.
    
    Too bad they don't play a consolation game.  It woulda been perfect to
    see the Blews - whose coach attacked a referee and whose players scuffled
    with several Indianapolis Policmen in the runway - go up against a similar
    style team in the All Time Greatest Overrated Team in the Runnin' Rabble.
    
    Haa.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.939Some things, like the seasons, never do changeSHALOT::HUNTDid Adam and Eve have navels ???Mon Apr 08 1991 15:1731
 Oh, this is just priceless ...  Collectors are sure to want a copy of this
 one ...
 
 This past Saturday, "The Charlotte Observer" reprinted a single large
 panel, editorial-style cartoon that it had originally printed way back in
 March of 1987.
 
 Picture, if you will, two rather ordinary Southern ladies out together for
 a pleasant springtime stroll.   One of the ladies is walking her happy dog
 and they are both passing beneath a big solid oak tree with some fresh new
 buds popping out of its limbs.  And there's a full-throated songbird
 perched on one of the lower limbs ...
 
 And the caption reads ...
 
 	"All the old familiar, reassuring signs that spring is here --
 	 buds sprouting, birds singing, Tar Heels choking ..."
 
 Dan'l was kind enough to make a few photocopies of the panel for us here. 
 I would consider it my sworn sacred duty and honor to distribute this
 priceless gem to the far-flung reaches of the Anti-Dean Empire.   If you
 want a copy, please don't reply here but just send mail to me at BOB HUNT
 @OPA or SHALOT::HUNT and I'm going to figure out a way to get this to you. 
 It's no doubt against company policy to abuse the interoffice mail system
 with non-work related items like this so I'll come up with another way. 
 Maybe self-addressed stamped envelopes or we can use fax machines instead.
 
 Nice to see that the Observer ain't wall-to-wall Baby Blue Pee-Pee
 Smoochers.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.940muttering someting about beating a dead horseMAXWEL::CHILDSOut of reach, is out of touchMon Apr 08 1991 15:1811
    
>    And you wonder why you've got a credibility problem?  (Reflected in the
>    fact that neutral observers are leaving your sad-sack holy war in 
>    droves ...)
    
 
 Neutral observers know that you have lost this war and lost it badly, they've
 move on to better things. 

 mike
 
17.941Textbook definitionRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Apr 08 1991 15:4513
    re: .938
    
    Carolina loses to KU in a close one and Dean's to blame.
    
    IU gets blown out by KU and BobKnight is a genius.
    
    This, my friends, is called "THYPOCRISY (tm)".  The correct
    pronunciation is with a soft 'T', similar to the word theory or
    Thoreau.
    
    HTH,
    
    - ACC Chris
17.942Tom Sorensen: honorary SPORTS member34223::MEDVIDNo I was not pushing that timeMon Apr 08 1991 15:49110
    Last week I posted a column by the Charlotte Observer's Tom Sorensen
    that a lot of you got a kick out of.  Well, if you were rollward by
    that one, you'll love this one:
    
    Devils, Heels Part of ACC Brotherhood
    =====================================
    
Duke: We're No. 1, we're No. 1.

North Carolina: Congratulations, congratulations.

Duke: You don't mean that.

North Carolina: Yes, we do.

Duke: You're saying that when Nevada-Las Vegas guard Anderson Hunt put up
the last-second three-pointer that would have knocked us out of the NCAA
tournament -- where Kansas already had knocked you -- you wanted him to
miss?

North Carolina: Yes.

Duke: Why?  When your Rick Fox fouled out against Kansas, we waved
bye-bye.  When your Dean Smith was kicked out of the Kansas game by the
mean old referee, we saluted.  And in case you didn't get it, it was not
the kind of salute Schwartzkopf gets from his troops.

When King Rice shot free throws against Temple, we waved our arms to
distract him even though we were watching on a big screen in the Pontiac
Silverdome hundreds of miles away.  Don't you get it?  We want you to
lose.

North Carolina: Of course you do.  We are North Carolina.

Duke: We're so sick of hearing that.

Wake Forest: We are, too.

Duke: "Oh, no, not Wake! Oh, no, not Wake!" Don' you love it when we do
that?

North Carolina: No.

Duke: We forgot.  you have no sense of humor.

North Carolina: We enjoy a joke as much as the next school.  Did you
hear the one about Mike Krzyzewski?  When he plays golf, he only plays
the first 14 holes because he can't get to the Final Four or when he
gets there, he can't win.  Something like that.

Duke: Airrrrrrrr joooooooooke, airrrrrrr jooooooooooke.

North Carolina: That's the spirit.  We'll cheer you for having the best
team in the country and you cheer us for having the best team in the
ACC.  The ACC is family and each member is our brother.  Our little
brother.  Each year, a different brother steps up to challenge our
authority.  Some years, it's NC State.

NC State: So, you're still looking over your shoulder at us?

North Carolina: No.  ON you, we look down.

Duke: Have you ever wondered why nobody likes you?

North Carolina: No.

Duke: It's because of your very North Carolinaness.  You tell us you are
the ACC's best program and we're sure at one time you were but it must
have been before our time and perhaps some night we can get our
grandfathers to sit down and tell us about it.  Because this is OUR
time.  Six years, five Final Fours.  Four years, four Final Fours.  And
when the 1991-92 season begins, we'll be No. 1 again.

North Carolina: You win one title and all you want to do is talk about
it.  And about us.  That must be how you do it in New Jersey.  Of
course, not all of you are from New Jersey.  Some of you are from New
York.

Duke: The only thing that would have made our championship better,
Mayberry, would have been a victory against you.  To get to the final,
all you had to do was beat Eastern Michigan four times and Kansas once. 
We beat the Rock, Chalk, Jayhawks by seven and you beat us in the ACC
championship by 22.  Let's extrapolate.

Clemson: What?

Duke: Add the numbers.  North Carolina beat us by 22 and we beat Kansas
by seven.  Add 22 and seven and you get...

Clemson: Twenty-nine!

Duke: North Carolina should have beaten Kansas by 29.  North Carolina
didn't want to play us.

North Carolina: You're right.  Because if we lost, you would have
commemorated the event with T-shirts and dirty cheers and, knowing you,
a big statue.  Probably in New Jersey.  You no longer would be our
little brother and we no longer could cheer for you.  Did you want to
play us?

Duke: No.  Because if you won, you would have become even more smug.

North Carolina: Glad we agree.  Congratulations on your championship.

Duke: Thanks.

North Carolina: You're only one behind us now.


    
17.943Talk about hittin' the nail on the haid!!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Apr 08 1991 16:187
    re: .-1
    
    Me thinks my little prodigal son parable a few notes back fits in
    nicely with this!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.944your mouf'...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina Blew. Most Excellent!Mon Apr 08 1991 16:5228
    >re: .938
    >
    >Carolina loses to KU in a close one and Dean's to blame.
    >
    >IU gets blown out by KU and BobKnight is a genius.
    >
    >This, my friends, is called "THYPOCRISY (tm)".
    
    3::20 with mediocre recruiting = genius.  1::33 with the very best
    recruiting = wretched Big Game coaching.
    
    Lest we forget, what's at issue here ain't margins a victory or 
    anecdotal "evidence" based on one or two pacific games; what's at 
    issue here is the specious connectivity when Blew fans pull out their
    turgid ding-a-lings and begins thrusting AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN REAL
    HARD AND IT HURTS SO GOOD AGAIN AGAIN IT MAKES IT HARDER AND HARDER...
    
    ... to believe.
    
    C'mon, Crisp, don't deny us our rightfully earned "THYSHUDDERY" (tm)
    pleasure.  Word up.  Say it.
    
    Say that it was a_excellent loss, a loss that further corroborates 
    'Snuffles Greatness.   C'mon, Caught, stick it in.
    
    Hopefully,
    Big10 Tom
    
17.945yes, yes, NOHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughMon Apr 08 1991 17:0844
Sure, I'll join the fun.

First of all, Bob Hunt has levied many more criticisms of Dean's System 
than these three points.

To the three points:

1. Yes, Dean has incorporated the 3 point shot into his system.

	The system dictates who can take it and from where a person 
	can take it. Dean draws it up so everyone knows. This of course 
	means that if you need to hit the 3 to win, you can't take it 
	unless you're an annointed shooter and then only if you're where
	Dean says you're supposed to be. Personally, I subscribe to the 
	theory that the system retards the development of shooting skills 
	since the shooters are severly constrained early in their career
	at Chapel Hill.

2. Yes Dean has incorporated the clock into his system.

	If Dean coached the whole game as well as he milks the clock, the 
	rafters of the Dean Dome might be filled with championshiop
	banners. Now this doesn't mean that he doesn't blow a time out or 
	2 or many. IMO, the single most significant evolution of the
	system has been due to the shot clock. I'll be forever thankful 
	that we don't have to watch the 4 corners, which, BTW, produced 
	no championships. In 1982, they won on Freddie's pass, without 
	the clock, but Jimmy Black was no Phil Ford and we were spared 
	the 4 corners. BTW, Michael Jordan was *NOT* supposed to shoot 
	the game winning shot. He was not the right shooter in the right 
	place at that time for the system.

3. No, Dean's system has not changed because of player evolution.

	This one is stictly opinion but he still tells George Lynch where
	he can shoot the ball just like he told Walter Davis. I think the
	way the players must yield to the system is the most significant
	area of the how the system has not changed nor adapted. The best 
	evidence that I can currently offer for this conclusion is Cliff
	Rozier. In most programs, he'd be a major contributor. In some he
	would be a star. The system resulted in his contributions to the
	Tar Heel being minimal, if not non-existent. 

TTom
17.946COMET::JOHNSTONWonFarfugIsKnotEnuf! WhoIsTooBlam?!Mon Apr 08 1991 17:1015
   I loved that bit, Dan'l

   	Duke: Let's extrapolate.
   	Clemson: WHAT!?!?

   hey!
   Here's a scary thought:

   Dean Smith has only been at UNC about 31 years.
   Imagine what's going to happen when the people in Chapel Hill finally
   realize that HE DOESN'T TALK LIKE THEM!!!!!

   	This could get real ugly.

   Mike JN
17.947CSCOA1::ROLLINS_RMon Apr 08 1991 17:1212
>    3::20 with mediocre recruiting = genius.  1::33 with the very best
>    recruiting = wretched Big Game coaching.
    
     Have to agree with the second statement.  However, the first is quite
     deceiving.  The "3" certainly weren't the product of mediocre recruiting.
     At least the first 2 of the 3 had excellent players, and there would
     be no need to label those coaching jobs as "genius" at all.  Adequate
     (like Tark's job last year) is all that was needed to get those boys
     titles.  (I give a lot more credit to BK for his last title season,
     however.)  In addition, with some early-round losses to weaker teams
     in other years, one would have to rate Knight only as a very good coach,
     but certainly not genius.
17.948If this ain't blind faith, I don't know what is34223::MEDVIDNo I was not pushing that timeMon Apr 08 1991 17:2317
>   Dean Smith has only been at UNC about 31 years.
>   Imagine what's going to happen when the people in Chapel Hill finally
>   realize that HE DOESN'T TALK LIKE THEM!!!!!

    OK, I'm about to say something nice about Dean...well, nice in my
    opinion. And it's funny that a few notes back, ACChris mentioned that
    Dean might run for congress.
    
    Dean Smith maintains very liberal values.  It wasn't long ago that the
    NC democrats were courting him to go up against Jesse Helms.  He gives
    to many minority charities and practices democratic fundamentals.
    
    Now, let alone not talking like them, imagine if the average Carolina
    fan found out that Dean Smith is opposed to their beloved racist,
    sexist, homophobic Jesse Helms mentality.
    
    	--dan'l
17.949COMET::JOHNSTONStand Back! I'll handle this!Mon Apr 08 1991 17:3610
17.950ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina Blew. Most Excellent!Mon Apr 08 1991 18:1533
    >At least the first 2 of the 3 had excellent players
    
    The '81 team was, IMNSHO, his most talented.  Isiah was Bob's only
    star player ever.  Landon Turner, had he not been paralyzed, would
    still be playing power forward in the NBA.  His best talent ever, and
    it represents potential NBA performance level average for 'Snuffy.
    
    As for Bob's early round losses, he has one of the top tourney winning
    percentage, and, beyond, that the idea is to win these things, not lose
    excellently.  Bob attempts to run his system, and he'll risk a loss so
    that the team might coalesce in such a way that they cain overachieve
    as happened in '87.  '81 was a classic example: That team has the most
    losses of any Championship squad ever, and they ended up going through
    the brackets with the highest average winning margin ever.  
    
    Tellya this: Bob has NEVER lost his composure and blown a Big Game like
    Reverend Underachievement did.  All Smif' did down the stretch was stand
    there delivering a crazed monologue to the referees... and it was a well
    officiated game!
    
    I point you to several games where Bob's pulled off late game turnarounds
    against more talented squads (LSU 3 times, UNLV twice, SyrExcuse, and so
    forth).  Bob is one very cool cookie the last 10 minutes.  Smif' was the
    opposite.  He should be ashamed a himself.
    
    I also am revulsed by the the Star Heel's street gang behavior, but I
    shouldn't criticize: Gregg Graham got a T against Illinois this year, the
    first T on a_IU player in, oh, a decade or so.  Well-behaved they are.
    
    Big10 Tom
    
    
    
17.951CAM::WAYOnly thing better 'n rucking is...Mon Apr 08 1991 18:196
SI panned the Rev' Smif' for his actions too.

I thought those articles on the game were pretty good.  Read
most of it Sunday morning, after coffee and the paper.....

'Saw
17.952IU 81 used to have most losses but KU 88 has it nowSHALOT::HUNTDid Adam and Eve have navels ???Mon Apr 08 1991 19:1624
17.953over-underHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughMon Apr 08 1991 20:0812
The 4 championship games being discussed here offer an intersting
comparison. As Bob Hunt said, the list (of winners) is for overachievers.
Let's not forget the team and coach that these champions beat:

	81	Indiana, beat Dean Smith and No Carolina.
	83	NC State, beat Guy Lewis and Houston.
	85	Villanova, beat John Thompson and Georgetown.
	88	Kansas, beat Billy Tubbs and Oklahoma.

Dean, Guy, Thompson and Tubbs. Now that's a list.

TTom
17.954EARRTH::BROOKSThe 83 Coogs, 88 Sooners, 91 UNLVTue Apr 09 1991 11:4116
    Don't insult Thompson by lumping him with the other three geeks.
    
    Besides, it would diminish what Villanova accomplished. They played as
    close to a perfect game as any team could possibly play - and they
    needed every single point.
    
    Think about it - how many times have you seen an underdog, and said to
    yourself, "Man, they'll have to play perfect ball to win ...." and then
    laughed at yourself, because we all know humans can't play at that type
    of level right ?
    
    Wrong.
    
    On the other hand, none of the other three winners played a perfect
    game, and was ripe for the taking ... especially NC State ! In these
    cases, the entire team took a gold plated gaspipe ....
17.955Draft NewsSHALOT::MEDVIDNo I was not pushing that timeTue Apr 09 1991 12:067
    Kenny Anderson has declared himself for the NBA draft.
    
    Rick Fox is foregoing the Orlando Classic, where seniors go to solidify
    their place in the draft.  Therefore, the scouts last impression of Fox
    is his 5 for 22 performance in the Final Four.  Bye, Rick!
    
    	--dan'l
17.9561st rounderHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughTue Apr 09 1991 12:509
I'll go so far as to say the Rick Fox hasn't hurt himself, yet. Just like
we all know the history of ex-Tar Heels: once away from Dean, they
improve dramatically, JR Reid possibly notwithstanding.

Fox will be a 1st rounder. He may have slipped but he'll still have a
good draft position. King Rice may end up going for baseball. He has a
tryout with some major team - I think it's Baltimore.

TTom
17.957It *was* a set play for frosh Michael JordanRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Apr 09 1991 13:5919
    > BTW, Michael Jordan was *NOT* supposed to shoot the game winning shot. 
    > He was not the right shooter in the right place at that time for the 
    > system.
    
    Patently untrue TTom.  Dean drew up the play exactly as it was
    executed.  Every time I've heard him (Coach Smith) comment on perhaps
    the most important play in Tar Heel history he points out how, even if
    Michael's shot had missed, Sam Perkins was in perfect rebounding
    position for the put-back.  (In other words, the play was drawn up such
    that we not only got a good shot off, but had an excellent chance at a
    rebound should the shot have missed.)
    
    As further testimony to prove you inaccurate, Dean told Michael to
    'Knock it Down' after they broke huddle.  I doubt he woulda said this
    if he wanted, say, Matt Doherty to take The Shot.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.958ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina Blew. Most Excellent!Tue Apr 09 1991 14:3022
    ACC Chis, lemme axe you one very simple question:  Who's the better
    coach: Bob or 'Snuffy?
    
    BobHunt, iu '81 had 13 regular season losses.  Is it true that NCSU
    and Villanova had more?  At any rate, I believe their record for 
    average winning margin stands.
    
    A_objective correspondent who shall remain unnamed noted that the Blews
    opening 2nd half run from 10 down to 3 down was largely the result of
    George Lynch's inside offense during the first few minutes of the half.
    Dean's response?  Mais certainment!  He benched George, what else?  And
    the Jayhawks then ran the lead back up.  Funny move in light of the 
    horrid shooting night his other forward was experiencing... guess who
    relpaced George's shooting? (R.I.C.K. F.O.X.) 
    
    Now I understand: Smif' saw George's run and proclaimed, "'Snuff!  Git
    over here to the bench and lemme regain control over what's happening
    out there!"
    
    Big10 Tom
    
    
17.959from the horse's orificeHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughTue Apr 09 1991 15:1216
re: Michael Jordan's shot.

I base that on Dean. I've heard Dean say on more than one occasion that
he's not sure that Michael should have taken the shot. If that in fact
this is not the case, than someone ought to tell Dean to change his
story. But that was my source for this "info".

And the most important play in Tar Heel history came after that shot when
Freddie passed it to James Worthy to "preserve" the game.

FWIW, most of what I know about Dean comes from Dean. Living in NC you're
inundated by his talk and TV shows. I especially enjoy them after key
matches. I regret that I miss this last coaches show. Tell us, Chris,
what did the Deanster have to say about the Kansas game.

TTom
17.960Dean caught in the lie!SHALOT::MEDVIDNo I was not pushing that timeTue Apr 09 1991 15:299
>I base that on Dean. I've heard Dean say on more than one occasion that
>he's not sure that Michael should have taken the shot. 
    
    Ditto.  Heard him say just that on ESPN in some interview that they had
    on tape right after they had won it.  If you heard differently, Chris,
    Dean is changing his story to make it seem like he coached them to that
    win...and you and the rest of the Carolina Boobs fall for it.
    
    	--dan'l
17.961More on The Shot.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Apr 09 1991 16:5812
    Why Dean would tell Mike to 'Knock it down.' when he wasn't even
    scheduled to shoot the ball is something you'll have to explain to me. 
    I've never heard Coach Smith say that the shot wasn't supposed to be
    Jordan's.
    
    For some reason Dean's coaching show wasn't on Sports South this
    Saturday.  It could be they only schedule so many per year in advance,
    so if you make it to the Final 4 there's no coaching show.  I was very
    interested in his comments on the KU game, needless to say.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.962to the sourceHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughTue Apr 09 1991 17:154
Well, Chris, the nexted time you're in Chapel Hill, you'll just have to
ask Dean about the shot. Also ask him about Freddie's Pass, too.

TTom
17.963Or you could call into his radio show TTom ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Apr 09 1991 17:2211
    If Dean comes to Atlanta again next year I'll have my dad ask him. 
    (Remember, my old man was the *only* guy in a crowd of 300+ to have the
    guts to ask him a tough question!)
    
    Which reminds me of the Carolina highlight film they showed that night. 
    When Michael hit The Shot the entire place rose to thunderous ovation. 
    Was almost like he was doing it live and nobody was sure it would go
    in!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.964Coaches Shows are stupid and the coaches seem to hate themSHALOT::MEDVIDNo I was not pushing that timeTue Apr 09 1991 17:2827
    I caught the tale end of the coaching show while waiting for some other
    kind of sports-type thing to come on.  Old Deano was looking pretty
    somber and naming a senior in every sentence.  
    
    A little earlier I caught Krzyzxyzxyzxy(tm) for a few seconds on his
    coaching show.  He too was looking pretty somber and naming Koubek and
    Buckley in every other sentence.  
    
    Do you get the impression that these guys don't like this part of their
    job?  I do.
    
    RE: the shot
    
    Chris, the quote was that Dean wasn't sure Jordan should have taken the
    shot.  That's not exactly saying that Jordan wasn't supposed to, so
    there is truth behind what both you and TTom are saying.  
    
    Two Krzyzxyzxyzxyzxy(tm) funnies that I've heard:
    
    	- A Durham store hung up a sign in its window that said
    	"Congrazwzlations"
    
    	- Joke: Duke is changing the official pronunciation of its name.  They
    	will now pronounce the "K" the same way the first one is pronounced in
    	Krzyzxyzxyzxy(tm).  Think about it.
    
    --dan'l
17.965What a set up! Thanks, Chris!SHALOT::MEDVIDNo I was not pushing that timeTue Apr 09 1991 17:379
>    Which reminds me of the Carolina highlight film they showed that night. 
>    When Michael hit The Shot the entire place rose to thunderous ovation. 
>    Was almost like he was doing it live and nobody was sure it would go
>    in!
    
    That's because Dean's choking prowess leads one to believe he might
    even be able to do it on tape!!!
    
    	--dan'l
17.966RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Apr 09 1991 17:477
    I was wondering who'd be the first to take advantage of my honest
    description of the crowd reaction from The Shot.  Congrats, dan'l!
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.967RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JONancy Says: Do it MYYY WAYYYYTue Apr 09 1991 17:519
    "Carolina Highlight Film"??  So what, did it alst about 20 seconds?  A
    shot of Michael making the shot, and then Freddy Brown throwing the
    Pass?   What other highlights could they possibly show?  Dean losing
    year in year out in the Tourney??  
    
    Must a_been mighty short film.   The credits were probably longer than
    the film!
    
    JD
17.968moving onHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughTue Apr 09 1991 17:559
Goodun, Dan'l.

I'll have to wait until nexted year to call Dean. His show is finished
for this season. Of course, I've managed to avoid calling in so far, I
might have to keep my record intact. Besides, it wouldn't surprise me if
it's all prescreened and you have to gush all over Dean just to get on
the air. 

TTom
17.969steal waiting...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYAl Cote R.I.P.Wed Apr 10 1991 18:126
    ACCrisp, answer my question:
    
    Who is the better coach?  Bob or Smif'?  And based on what?
    
    ThankU,
    Big10 Tom
17.970An answer, and a truthful one at that.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Apr 10 1991 19:228
    Who's the better coach?  If Consistent Excellence is your bag, Dean
    Smith.  If End-Of-Season-Peaks is your bag, Bob Knight.
    
    Either way Coach K is by far the best coach in the country right now,
    sad to say.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.971RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOElectric Metal Zombie ProjectWed Apr 10 1991 19:359
    OR put another way:  If excelling in the regular season every year, and
    choking in the tournament every year is your bag, than it is Dean
    Smith.
    
    If being so-so some years and a champeen other years is your bag, than
    Bobby K. 
    
    
    JD
17.972Looks like it'll be a *long* summer folks ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Apr 10 1991 19:498
    Funny how MorT's so anxious to compare Dean and Bob on the Heels of
    what has to be one of Bob's more classic choke-jobs.  
    
    At least we made it to the Final 4, and it least we were in the game
    after the 2-minute mark against Kansas.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.97332 points?HBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughWed Apr 10 1991 19:5412
Hey Bob Hunt.

Isn't it about time to run the now very famous 32 point system to
determine which conference holds the edge so far for the 90s?

Subjectively, with minimal analysis, it looks like the ACC

		*MIGHT*

have the early lead.

TTom
17.974DECWET::METZGERWe don't care how they do it in N.Y.Wed Apr 10 1991 20:0714
>   Funny how MorT's so anxious to compare Dean and Bob on the Heels of
>    what has to be one of Bob's more classic choke-jobs.  


lets seeeeeee


Indiana Loses to Kansas and its "one of Bob's more classic choke-jobs."
UNC and the snufmeister loses to Kansas and it's just another excellent loss.

Talk about seeing the world through baby blew glasses.....


Metz
17.975List FeverSHALOT::HUNTDid Adam and Eve have navels ???Wed Apr 10 1991 20:2537
 Ask and thou shall receive ... Looking at just the Final Four in this
 decade so far ...
 
 		1990		1991
 32 points	UNLV		Duke
 16 points	UNLV		Duke
 		Duke		Kansas
 8 points	UNLV		Duke
 		Duke		Kansas
 		Georgia Tech	North Carolina
 		Arkansas	UNLV
 
 The ACC has 		96 points.
 The Big West has 	64 points.
 The Big Eight has 	24 points.
 The SWC has 		 8 points.
 The Big Ten has 	 0 points.
 The Big East has 	 0 points.
 
 Oh, and speaking of lists that need to be updated, we forgot about yet one
 more ... Here goes ...
 
 	Injuries To Young Point Guards, 
 	Emotionally Overcharged Teams With Retiring Head Coaches, 
 	Incredibly Hot Teams On A Magical Roll, 
 	Lousy Referees, 
 	Unfair Seedings, 
 	Wrong Regions, 
 
 and ... for 1991 we have ... 
 
        Ice Cold Shooting.
 
 There you have it, folks, the updated list of Excellent Excuses.   Cain't
 wait for 1992.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.976Had to do it...RAVEN1::B_ADAMSLet's race around the Cereal Bowl!Wed Apr 10 1991 20:305
    
    	U.N.C-me choke!
    
    
    B.A. 
17.977and so on and so on ...5734::BROOKSLip reading, New Taxes, Kurds :-(Thu Apr 11 1991 11:496
    re .974
    
    We can reverse it (MrT did), and say it was a quietly excellent loss
    for Bob ....
    
    
17.978Reality check for the MetzsterRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Apr 11 1991 13:0420
> Indiana Loses to Kansas and its "one of Bob's more classic choke-jobs."
> UNC and the snufmeister loses to Kansas and it's just another excellent loss.

> Talk about seeing the world through baby blew glasses.....
    
    Nice try Metz, but can you point me to the note where I said that?
    
    What I did point was the following classic Thypocrisy (tm):
    
    1. IU reaches the Sweet 16 before getting blown out by KU
    2. UNC reaches the Final 4 before losing in a close one to KU
    3. Both teams were ranked within 1 position of each other in
       the AP and UPI polls
    
    MorT's conclusion:	More evidence of Bob's superiority to Dean.
    
    Git it?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.979Gotta love it ... IU gets blown out, UNC loses tight oneSHALOT::HUNTDid Adam and Eve have navels ???Thu Apr 11 1991 13:3734
17.980Spin Control by BobKnightRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Apr 11 1991 14:0435
> Oh, and one more thing ... Immediately following Indiana's loss to Kansas,
> Bob Knight took the microphone and said the Sweet Sixteen was as far as
> his team was able to go this year.    
    
    Awful big of Bob to admit that the NCAA Tournament is a single
    elimination event, dontcha think?  I mean, imagine him saying that he
    thought Indiana should advance to the Round of 8 given the fact that
    they just got blown out by a #3 seed.  Haw haw!!!  
    
    One thing that bugs me about Hucksters fans (I'll site MorT, Cap,
    and BobKnight as examples) is that they set you up for underachievement
    and then, when they deliver, excuse it away as expected behavior.
    Both MorT and Cap said before the tourney that they didn't expect IU to
    go very far.  Well isn't that nice.  I mean, here's a team that tied
    for a B10 crown, received a #2 seed in a region (they arguably could've
    been a #1 seed somewhere), and was ranked in the Top 5 in the USA. 
    Someone please tell me why we should've *expected* them to lose.
    
    Contrast this with Carolina fans who will always acknowledge the
    difficult competition (Lord knows UNC is put in the underdog roll about
    once every 15 years or so, yet the media perceives this acknowledgement
    as 'whining') yet belly up to the bar and admit we should win some
    games.  (Which we did and almost always do in the NCAA's.  Witness Dean's 
    11 straight Sweet 16 appearances and recent Final 4 trip.)
    
    (BTW Bob, your assumption that Indiana would've reached the Final 4 if
    they'd been in the East is *highly* questionable.  Villanova would've
    given them fits, and Temple probably would've beaten them if Macon had
    the kind of game he did against us.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
    
17.981I'm a Poet and I know it (but so did Homer)ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Apr 11 1991 15:0537
    re .977 & .978
    
    Poor Midnight and ACCaught...
    
    	Sittin' in a tree
    
    Makin' the Antis they've fought...
    
    	Giddy and THYSHUDDERY (tm)
    
    Cuz they talk only the anecdotal...
    
    	One Big Game at a time
    
    While the Antis (quite mainly and scrotal)...
    
    	Know that 3::20 is sublime...
    
    We'll leave perversion to the Tree Dwellers...
    
        All tangled up in sticks
    
    They're so very sadly confused fellers...
    
    	3::20 vs 1::31 is better by over six
    
    Big10 Tom and the Antis are objective analysts... 
    
    	They know their hoops and their math
    
    The arboreal Banana Republicans only abject analists...
    
    	Who happily are NOT beneath our wrath
    
    
    Big10 Tom 
    
17.982STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishThu Apr 11 1991 15:2372
    ACChris,
    
    First off I've been very quiet about NC's loss and Dean's embarrassing
    exit from a game that he had given up on when they still had a chance
    to win.  I'd take that as a show of good faith and watch how you attack
    me or my views(which are objective when analyzing how far this team
    would go this year).  If you attack me or lump me in with others that
    you are upset with, than that good faith ends and you'll be very
    surprised with what I've turned up when researching NC and the NCAA's..
    
    Here are my statements about IU/NC NCAA...
    
    First off Kansas kicked IU's butts, I make no excuses for their losses.
    I was disappointed that they came out flat and believe me the players
    on that team will never do that again as long as they play for Knight.
    When they came out flat, IU went small to try and reduce Kansas's lead
    but were dominated on the boards.  Knight did not get a chance to coach
    in that game and it was his fault that they came out so flat.  So yes
    Knight was responsible for their loss(I always admit coaching
    mistakes).
    
    I'd be more disappointed if I was a NC fan as they had a legitimate
    shot at winning the championship.  The only way IU would have won this
    year would have been by a miracle and it would have been considered one
    of the greatest coaching jobs of all time.
              
    Since your such an astute follower of college basketball here's 
    some questions:  Answer these objectively.
    
    1.  With all the top seeds eliminated and with only Kansas in NC's
    	way, did you think NC should have made the finals?
    
    2.  With a team consisting of mainly freshman and sophomore guards
        and no inside players, did you think Indiana had a chance to
        make the finals in their region?
    
    3.  Which team has more talent?  NC with Fox, Montross, Chilcutt, Rice,
        Davis, Lynch, Rozier, Phelps, Rodl, etc or IU with Chaney,
        Anderson, Bailey, Nover, Meeks, etc????
    
    4.  Do you really think Dean did not know how much time he had to 
        replace a player who had just fouled out?  or do you think he
        was frustrated and was baiting the ref's so he could complain?
    
    5.  Were you embarassed that the coach of your favorite program would
        give up when the game still could be won?
    
    Here are my only statements about the NCAA Tourney:
    
    1. North Carolina had a better team than Indiana....
    2  North Carolina had a much better inside game and very big players
       (IU played in the tourney with 4 guards and Eric Anderson 80% of the
       time so they had no interior defense)
    3. I picked Indiana to lose in the office pool on all 4 of my sheets
       in the sweet 16, which shows where I thought they'd end up so it
       wasn't a set-up for a loss.  I didn't expect them to win and am
       content in knowing that Knight will get another win well before
       Smith will....	
    4. Indiana was a team that was a good team in a very weak conference,
       which made their record appear better than it was to the pollsters.
    5. IU would have beaten NC.
    6. IU would have made the final four in the East Region.
    7. NC had the easiest road to the final four in the history of the 
       tourney and got beat in their only real test.
    8. Indiana was not going to make a championship run this year without
       an inside game(offensively and defensively).
    8. Depending upon how fast Lindeman and Henderson mature, next year
       could very well be a championship run(I think it will be).
    
    
    Cap
17.983AXIS::ROBICHAUDThu Apr 11 1991 15:251
    
17.984Bob got wasted. End of story.EARRTH::BROOKSNew World Order = Business As UsualThu Apr 11 1991 15:319
> Oh, and one more thing ... Immediately following Indiana's loss to Kansas,
> Bob Knight took the microphone and said the Sweet Sixteen was as far as
> his team was able to go this year.    Haven't heard the Snuffmeister say
> anything even close to that kind of admission
    
    So ? 
    
    Bob I have to say, that line of reasoning is unimpressive.
    
17.985ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Apr 11 1991 15:4542
    re: Cap's beatifully factual and, frankly, inspiring .982
    
    Bob need make no excuses.  He's 3::20.  It's when your 1::30 (as
    are 'Snuff, and, more or less, the likes of Tarkanian et al) *then*
    you're in a position where excuses are necessary.  We know this cuz
    Dan SnideAir himself has established the irrelevancy of single games
    or a small number of games as "anecdotal."  Therefore, the entire
    record, a significant dastistickal sample, if you will, must be the
    basis for any objective analysis of this kind.
    
    Here's a *factor*, though: Eric Anderson was hurting badly with severe
    back pain most of this season.  His lower back totally crapped out in
    the Kansas game.  His first step was at best at half speed from its
    normal rate.  This and he was forced, cuz a Bob's mediocre recruiting,
    to bang underneath against a true center in the NBA-bound Randall.
    
    Bob had no control over Kansas' FT shooting; and given that IU has 
    lived and died all year long on a sagging defense designed to augment
    IU's small front-line, he had few options to adjust against Kansas'
    awesome 3-point shooting.  Beyond that, the Hoosiers' only two
    consistent outside shooters were Eric and Calbert, who indeed are their
    only two inside players.  Granted, Damon had come a long way with his
    outside J but he was still much less reliable than the other two. 
    
    The '90-'91 Hoosiers had a susceptible makeup: They were small and also
    shaky from the outside on offense.  They went all year with sporadic
    shooting performances, and I don't hold Bob responsible for this one.
    
    Where Bob screwed up was his offensive system breaking down.  After 
    having run the system to perfection for over half the season they 
    suddenly collapsed under Kansas' superb pressure defense.  That was the
    thing that disappointed me.
    
    As for the season, we got another red flag.  We garnered 3 hopefully
    bona fide inside players (you forgot to mention Evans outta Terre Haute
    South, a potential Ted Kitchel lookalike).  
    
    And we had a_Excellent Loss in the Sweet Sixteen which, when no excuses
    are required, is... most excellent !!
    
    Big10 Tom
     
17.986The question it raises: Is BK getting too old ?CSCOA1::ROLLINS_RThu Apr 11 1991 16:107
>    And we had a_Excellent Loss in the Sweet Sixteen which, when no excuses
>    are required, is... most excellent !!
    
     Hate to remind you of realities, T, but that Kansas game was no
     a_Excellent Loss for IU.  The Hoosiers were flat, and stunk up the
     place.  Given their talent level, they should have played much better
     than that, but were unprepared to play in that game.
17.987EARRTH::BROOKSNew World Order = Business As UsualThu Apr 11 1991 17:1616
    re .985
    
    So T, you admit that Bob is a sucky recruiter, right ? Which means that
    since that is part of a college coach's job description, he is lacking as a
    coach as well, right ?
    
    Kinda of a funhouse mirror to Smif eh ?
    
    Finally, why don't you stop making excuses. At least Cap is willing to
    put it on the line and expect a championship team out of IU next year.
    On the other hand, all YOU ever put in hear is how undermanned Bobby's
    teams are ....
    
    ... which reflects directly on *Bobby* !
    
    Nuff said !
17.988ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Apr 12 1991 13:4227
    >you admit that Bob is a sucky recruiter, right ?
    
    Right.  Only Bob would feature the likes of Matt Nover as a starter.
    Bob traditionally recruits only in the midwest, doesn't recruit haid
    cases or dumb bunnys, and doesn't pay cash on the barrel haid (which
    hurts bad when recruiting big men).  You're right.  He's a sucky 
    recruiter, but that seems to be changing.
    
    >Which means that since that is part of a college coach's job description...
    
   No doubt about it, recruiting is a critical function of a college coach.
    
    >... he is lacking as a coach as well, right ?
    
    Wrong.  A coach's efficacy should, must, be evaluated based on results.
    
    Looking at results, instead a the pure unmitigated jive you're spouting,
    Bob (3::20) certainly, then, isn't "lacking as a coach."  
    
    I would suggest that you apply this type of analysis to coach's (and 
    there are many) who recruit well, some even crookedly, who are tied with
    Steve Fisher ('Snuffy & Stomper included).
    
    Sorry to see you fall down like this.  
    
    Big10 Tom 
                                           
17.989RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGarrison's Guerilla'sFri Apr 12 1991 14:1338
    Doc and Chris - here's how I interpret teh use by Bob Hunt about Bob
    Knight's comments.   Bob was honest.  He didn't whine about
    officiating.  He didn't moan about injuries.  
    
    And that's the difference between the IU fans in here and Chris.  Chris
    published a litany of excuses for past UNC failures - everything from
    hot teams to injured point guards to bad astrological alignment to bad
    seeds to bad officiating.  To paraphrase Cap about IU's loss "We got
    beat, we came out flat."   He didn't complain or whine.   I've yet read
    a note from Chris, or ever heard Dean Smith admit a loss.  There's
    always a lame brain reason.  Always an excuse.  
    
    As for recruiting, in a past installment of SPORTS I remember MrT
    saying that Bob Knight isn't the greatest recruter in hoops - and Cap
    has said basically the same thing to me via E-mail.
    
    I root for neither UNC or IU.  Recruiting is part of a coaches's job.
    SO using Doc/ChrisLogic, Dean is a much better recruiter than Bob
    Knight.  Yet, bob Knight has won 3 champeenships to one (1)
    champeenship to Dean.  So lets see, better recruiting == more talent ==
    one champeenship == poor coaching.   Worser (sic) recruiting == less
    talent == three champeenships == superior coaching. 
    
    That's easy to see.  I"m not a Bob Knight fan.  Cap, MrT, et al will
    attest to battles with me about Knight.  However, if I had one game to
    play, and had to choose between Dean and bob Knight, I wouldn't even
    waver - Bob would be on the sidelines - Dean would be folding towells
    in the locker room.
    
    This year's final four showed the two sides of coaching - good and bad
    big game coaching.  Dean and Tark both did BAD jobs of coaching in the
    big game.  Mike K and Roy w. did fine jobs of coaching.  Tark and Dean
    should have won their games - all they had to do was do a little
    coaching - to coax a little more performance out of their studs - and
    they weren't able to.   Tark took the loss well, Dean took it like a
    loser - giving up and throwing in the towell.  
    
    JD
17.9907221::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Fri Apr 12 1991 14:2311
    I echo what JD said.  Also, I'm not a particularly big fan of Indiana
    and the only thing I really hate about North Carolina is their women's
    soccer team and that fluke, lucky 1-0 loss they hung on the University
    of Massachusetts in 1987.  I was not at UMass for the 1971 NIT runup of
    the score, otherwise, I'd hate UNC almost as much as I hate Boston
    College.
    
    In other words, I can be mostly objective about IU and UNC, but I still
    agree 100% with what JD said.
    
    John
17.991True Confessions from ACC ChrisRHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Apr 12 1991 15:2830
    I have no big quarrel with JD's note either.  Against Kansas we didn't
    shoot well and got beat.  No big deal.  Simple, really.  If not for the
    unfortunate incident with Dean (that reflected poor judgement on both
    his and Pavia's part) I wouldn't even feel badly about the loss, since
    at least Roy Williams got to enjoy the 'W'.
    
    I'd probably also take BobKnight as my coach if I only had 1 game to
    play.  The beauty and genius of Dean is in his 'System' approach,
    which focuses on 'Percentage Basketball'.  The analogy might be a
    baseball manager who plays 'By The Book'.  You'll win a high percentage
    of your games if you adhere to this approach, but in a Best-of-1 series
    it can work against you.
    
    For example, Dean's System encourages balanced scoring at the expense
    of individual scoring.  Rarely does Carolina ever have one player score
    30+ in a game.  The advantage of this is that you don't rely on one
    player, which is a benefit in the long run.  However in a single game
    or single NCAA Tournament one player *may* be able to carry you.  We
    very rarely enjoy this luxury.  (Al Wood in the '81 semi's against UVa
    was a notable exception.)
    
    The bottom line is 'The System' is at its best over the long haul. 
    It's vulnerable in a 1-game Series against a team playing well because
    it somewhat limits our ability to elevate our game.  I guess you could
    say it kinda guarantees a certain level of play but makes it difficult
    to significantly elevate your level of play, which is often what's
    needed to win a Title.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.992AGREEDSHALOT::HUNTDid Adam and Eve have navels ???Fri Apr 12 1991 15:453
 Well said, Chris.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.993RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGarrison's Guerilla'sFri Apr 12 1991 15:574
    What nexted, the Cubs win the World Series.  Only took about 1000 notes 
    and agreement starts settling in.  Must be spring ;-)
    
    JD
17.994One of JD's themesVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitFri Apr 12 1991 15:586
    >In other words, I can be mostly objective about IU and UNC, but I still
    >agree 100% with what JD said.
    
    John, do you really think Dean Smith is a "poor" coach?
    
    Dan
17.996RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGarrison's Guerilla'sFri Apr 12 1991 15:599
    Dan,
    
    I said Dean was a poor "Big Game Coach".  No where have I vilified his 
    regular season record.  Just have said that he has 'limitation' when
    it comes to the big enchilada.
    
    HJey, the guy coached Bobby Jones - he caint be all bad ;-)
    
    JD
17.997Just when Hawk thought it was safe...VAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitFri Apr 12 1991 16:057
    >I said Dean was a poor "Big Game Coach".
    
    Are all NCAA tourney games "Big Games"?  Or just certain ones?
    
    Are ACC tourney games "Big Games"?
    
    Dan
17.998CHIEFF::CHILDSOut of reach, is out of touchFri Apr 12 1991 16:296
 Dan I got my hand up can I answer????

 ;^)

 mike
17.1002Hawk does it again ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Apr 12 1991 17:105
    I knew my 'True Confession' note would vault us over the thousand 
    mark right quick!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1003COMET::JOHNSTONStand Back! I'll handle this!Fri Apr 12 1991 17:125
   Huge CONGRATS,Kwak! 

   I knewed you could do it! I KNEWED it! (wotta competitor!)

   Mike JN
17.1005DECXPS::TIMMONSI'm a Pepere!Fri Apr 12 1991 17:233
    Needle, if you take it away, I'll buy you a beer!
    
    lEe
17.1006ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Apr 15 1991 15:1644
    >Well said, Chris.
    
    I disagree.  
    
    To summarize, 'Crisp state that a system-orientATed coach lays
    himself open to the occassional upset for broader advantage.  With
    that I agree.  But 'Caught then went on to say that this explains
    'Snuffy's annual Big Game choke-jobs.  With that my bowels rumble
    and beg to be voided.  Reverend Underachievement's system in no way
    explains over 30 years of choke-a-holicism whereby he folds when the
    clutch is on.  The "upsetability" of a system-based team cain't be
    the reason for such consistent failure.  Another consistent element,
    however, certainly cain: And that's the "coach."
    
    A queer aspect to Smif' is that, although he's given to frenetic
    substitution, he's inflexible as a coach.  Bob, who's also a system
    coach, on the other hand is quite flexible.  I remember him paving
    his way to one a his Titles by shocking everybody by *running* with
    UNLV, which was the first time that year they'd run against anyone.
    Also, if a star is choking up (which cain happen to the best a them)
    he'll adjust by either benching him or running the shots over to 
    somebody else.  Not so, Dean.  I wasn't so bad that he cost George
    Lynch a shot in the limelight, or that he embarrassed himself yet
    again.  What was rotten was that he humiliated poor Rick Fox by not
    only not taking the pressure off a him, he compounded the coaching
    crime by not adjusting the offense to facilitate his shot opportunities. 
    
    If the Antis had convened on some neutral site and sat down and hammered
    out a dream script - #1 recruiting class, wrist-slapping a woman-beater,
    blow out 3 weeks earlier of the eventual Champ, Final Four appearance, 93 
    substitutions, constant wheedling of refs who'd officiated a great game, 
    benching his hot hand who was steal fresh from halftime after he'd pulled 
    them back to within 3 only to slide back down by 10 before reinserting him,
    the glazed-eyed HowmuchtimedoIhave? HowmuchtimedoIhave? HowmuchtimedoIhave? 
    total loss a crunch-time cool (how much time do you have?  look it up in
    the damned Rule Book stupe!, don't ya know by this point?!), the giving
    up down 5 with 35 seconds left, the geekoid handshaking routine, and, oh
    yes oh yes!, the assault by the coach on a ref in the runway with ensuing
    scuffle between the Indianapolis Police Department and the Star Hells -
    we never coulda done as good. 
    
    Thank you lawdy!  Troof & Justice in action!  FACE.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1007Hey, he tried, T, he tried ...SHALOT::HUNTDid Adam and Eve have navels ???Mon Apr 15 1991 16:0126
 Hey, I haven't backed down from my belief that Snuff is a choker deluxe. 
 The day I do that I'll be pushing up daisies.
 
 I just wanted to acknowledge what was probably Soup's first attempt in
 here in a very long time at an objective analysis of the Dean-meister's
 good points and bad points.  Soup stated that Dean coaches for long term
 success at the expense of short-term gains.   The results do indeed
 indicate that.
 
 What Soup hasn't come to grips with yet (and we're still waiting ...) is
 that Smif' has only succeeded with this system during the regular season.  
 When it counts just a teeny little bit more, Smif's system falls flat on
 its baby blue face.
 
 Carolina fans can wipe away the disappointment of any single short-term
 season by claiming that the long-term results are more satisfying.  But
 they can't escape the fact that he's got a sad and l-o-n-g litany of these
 short-term failures.
 
 Conclusion: He can't win the Big One.   He wins lots and lots and lots of
 little ones but he can't bring home The Big Enchilada.    Well, okay, 1
 enchilada in 31 years.  And if Fred Brown hadn't spilled the hot taco
 sauce on James Worthy's silk tie, Smif' would very well still be looking
 at The Big Empty Burrito.   Much to the delight of the Dean Detractors.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1008Niagra Falls YMCA = Big East as NC A&T = ACC?SHALOT::MEDVIDNo I was not pushing that timeMon Apr 15 1991 16:5113
    Didn't really know where to put this so I figured that since this
    rathole was in the ACC topic in the 90's SPORTS, it might as well go
    here.
    
    A 19 year old basketball player was stabbed to death with a leg from
    the scorer's table at a basketball game in Niagra Falls, NY.  A dispute
    over the score of this YMCA sponsored game led to a fight between the
    players and about 40 spectators.
    
    Now, will Mr. T blame this on the Big East since it's in the same part
    of the country as Syracuse?
    
    	--dan'l
17.1009I tried. (BTW, bullseye dan'l. SU deserves probation now, eh?!)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Apr 15 1991 22:415
    Thanks, guys, for confirming my suspicion that a_honest intellectual
    hoops discussion is out of the question in these parts.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1010Repeat incidents in B10 country shut him upVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitTue Apr 16 1991 15:2011
    >Now, will Mr. T blame this on the Big East since it's in the same part
    >of the country as Syracuse?
    
    Nah, MrT dropped that, well, stupid is the correct word, line of
    reasoning after it was pointed out that there was not just one, but two
    extremely ugly incidents in the heart of Big 10 country just this
    season.  No telling, if we keep an open eye and a closed mind, we kind
    find ugly things happening on the basketball court in virtually every
    sector of the country.
    
    Dan
17.1011ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Apr 16 1991 20:0024
    >MrT dropped that, well... correct... line of reasoning after it was
    >pointed out that there was not just one, but two extremely ugly
    >incidents in the heart of Big 10 country just this season.
    
    As always, you miss the point.  Show me anywhere in the Nation's
    Heartland where a_entire arena erupts in a riot, bystanders and
    police are beaten for minutes at a time... and then little or nothing
    is done about prosecuting the perpetrators.  I cain show you that
    this sorta thing is possible only in a place where the Legislature
    condones crooked coaches.  By way of tall & proud contrast, in Big10
    Country they not only fire crooked Athletic Dept. operatives, they
    prosecute them for felony crimes!
    
    Long live moral leadership!  DevilSatanBeelzebubDanSnideAirSneakAss!
    
    re: Bob Hunt on poor 'Caught
    
    My only point is that you complimented him for "owning up" at long
    last when in fack all he managed was a_obfuscation of the most odorous
    onerous and otiose sort.  He deserves the severest possible criticism
    for his abject inability to criticize his False Prophet (you know, the
    choke-artist "coach").
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1012MrT made a connection that was never there.VAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitTue Apr 16 1991 20:1711
    >Show me anywhere in the Nation's Heartland where {blah, blah, blah}
    
    Put up time:  show me what prosecuting and legislating was done in the
    wake of both Big 10 country brawls, in light of all the felony crimes
    that were committed.
    
    Go 'head.  I'm waiting.
    
    Dan
    
    
17.1013ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Apr 17 1991 12:4829
    >both Big 10 country brawls...
    
    Dunno what you're talking about.  Specify.  I've gone to the trouble
    of documenting your spoutings as jive-bull before only to have you
    skulk away without explanation.  If you're gonna do your intellectually-
    dishonest-snake-in-the-grass routine why should I bother?
    
    But the key points are these:
    
    1) A few people are not several hundred people.
    2) The crux a my "regional comparisons" is not the existence of wrong
       doing but officialdom's response to it.
    
    3) A little league volunteer coach is a long way from a haid hoops
       coach and/or Athletic Director.
    
    4) In the Nation's Heartland they prosecute.  In Minnesota the jock's
       bag-man was convicted of embezzlement, served hard time in the big
       house, and was deported on his release; in Michigan the asst.
       baseball coach was levied with a similar charge.  And that's for 
       handing out dough.  In Carolina (a state that instead a killing
       the pirate Blackbeard cut a deal with him for a share of the profits
       of his murderous enterprise) public officials mount public defesnes,
       even introduce legislation, to assist a known crook, and they wink
       at a full-scale riot as natural (racist analysis, perhaps?).
    
    Give it up, AirSnide, haven't you taken enough beatings as it is?
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1014MrT continues with his stupid point, but fails to documentVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitWed Apr 17 1991 13:0914
    >Dunno what you're talking about.  Specify.
    
    Done.  I entered notes days after both incidents occured during this
    past basketball season.  Two brawls in Big 10 country.
    
    >2) The crux a my "regional comparisons" is not the existence of wrong
    >   doing but officialdom's response to it.
    
    Well???  What was officialdom's response to it?  And as long as you're
    so in-the-know, why don't you tell us what officialdom's response was
    when the Big Ten country yahoos doubled the ACC country yahoos
    efforts?
    
    Dan
17.1015ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Apr 17 1991 16:0511
    >Done.  I entered notes days after blah blah blah blaaaaah...
    
    It's not done.  You're steal huffing and puffing on so, but, 
    sadly, only about  non-pacific incidents that allegedly took 
    place in our Nation's Heartland, and just like with your alleged
    pre-1973 biz lag, you're unwilling to proffer the "evidence."
    Unteal you provide something, you have nothing (as usual).
    
    Out here we throw your kind in the barnyard, chicken.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1016Obstinately intellectually dishonest MrTVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERThe crux of the biscuitWed Apr 17 1991 16:2812
    Are you saying the incidents never took place?
    
    No, I don't think so.  You're merely adopting your typical
    intellectually dishonest, and no one can make you be honest, pose. 
    Have it your way.  I ask you for proof that the ACC-country did nothing
    (as you claim).  You offer none.  I ask you for proof that the
    B10-country did something after their repeat brawls.  You offer none.  
    
    And you wonder why people make fun of your stupid criticism of the ACC
    for a brawl that involved no ACC teams...
    
    Dan
17.1017Bill McCaffrey is leaving DUKE!!!MPGS::BURGESSThu Apr 18 1991 12:179
    
    Bill McCaffrey, the second-leading scorer on Duke's NCAA title team,
    said Wednesday he will transfer to another school, most likely
    Stanford.  "My decision is best for all concerned because it is what I
    truly want," he said. "The memories will be cherished forever."  The
    6-3 sophomore guard from Allentown, PA. averaged 11.6 points.  He
    started 21 games, led Duke in free throw percentage (.832.
    
    - Ken -
17.1018CHIEFF::CHILDSmy hero, Brian Boitano on bladesThu Apr 18 1991 13:507
 Typical Duke whinnyass spoiled kid. "I'm not going to start so I'm going else
 where...."

 I'm sure Coach K is real crushed...

 mike
17.1019Hard to figure outSHALOT::HUNTWorking For The ClampdownThu Apr 18 1991 14:2412
 I, too, am puzzled by McCaffrey's decision.  I thought he was a very
 important part of Duke's team.   He and Koubek were the first two guys off
 the bench all season long.  He killed Kansas with his outside shooting and
 made the All Final Four team.
 
 Apparently, he wants to play a lot more at point guard and Bobby Hurley,
 of course, has that job wrapped up pretty tight.
 
 Strange ...  Maybe he couldn't take the "Doogie Howser, Doogie Howser"
 razzing that he heard in every other gym in the ACC.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1020Maybe an alternate reasonSHALOT::MEDVIDNo I was not pushing that timeThu Apr 18 1991 14:494
    Doesn't McCaffrey have a relative (brother?) that plays football for
    Stanford?
    
    	--dan'l
17.1021laterHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughThu Apr 18 1991 15:275
McCaffrey played the 2 guard, so having Hurley around wasn't the issue. I
always thought the he was a classical Duke shooter off the bench and
seemed to be finally hitting his stroke.

TTom
17.1022Duke *will* miss is outside shooting though ...RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Apr 18 1991 15:375
    I'm utterly *shocked* by this, but the loss will be McCaffrey's, not
    Duke's.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1023BSS::JCOTANCHColorado Football: #1 for 1990Thu Apr 18 1991 15:397
>    Doesn't McCaffrey have a relative (brother?) that plays football for
>    Stanford?
  
    His brother is a wide receiver for the football team.
    
    Joe  
 
17.1024This is NOT meant as a UNC bash - I'm just curiousWORDY::NAZZAROPursue, capture, incarcerateThu Apr 18 1991 15:409
    I know this is a month late, but I gots a question:
    
    Has any team ever had an easier road to the Final Four than
    North Carolina did this year?  They never played a team in the
    upper half of the draw.  This seems extremely unusual to me, for
    a team to play the #16, #9, #12, and #10 seeds to reach the Final 
    Four.  So again I ask, has there ever been anything like this?
    
    NAZZ
17.1025Weird, ain't it, Nazz ???SHALOT::HUNTWorking For The ClampdownThu Apr 18 1991 16:1822
 Nazz,
    
 I brought this very point up as soon as it happened.  Of course, I *was*
 trying to bash Carolina for it.
 
 Naturally, the Hare Smithnas tried to point out that it wasn't *their*
 fault that they played a string of overachieving low seeds en route to
 Indy.   Which, of course, meant that they had yet again missed the point
 entirely.
 
 The point being, of course, is that nobody but Carolina gets the breaks
 like they do.   And, then, of course, they then clutched their throats
 against the first tough seed they saw.   Which only happened to be a
 mirror image of themselves.
 
 Followed up, naturally, by a loud and long chorus of faithful cheers and
 attaboys for Dean Smith's noteworthy accomplishments in his lifelong
 pursuit of hoops excellence.
 
 This is truly a strange world we live in.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1026ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMandingoThu Apr 18 1991 19:317
    >Are you saying the incidents never took place?
    
    No, I'm saying I don't know what in the holy HAIL you're 
    mumbling about.  Typical AirSnide slam-punk: He demands a_answer
    but refuses to reveal the subject.  Haa.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1027State hoops signingsHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughThu Apr 18 1991 19:3620
State signings: 

State signed three and are leading on some more. They early signed a guy
Marshall, a 6' point guard, Mr Nebraska basketball. Yesterday they signed
Lakista McCuller, a 6'3" 2 guard from Georgia that Alabama wanted real
bad, and a guy named Newman who was Mr Alabama Basketball, a 6'8" forward
who scored over 1200 on his SATs. 

State has moved to the head of the class for another kid, Reafsnyder.
I've heard he's 6'10" and that he's 7'. In either case he'd play in the
middle. Supposedly, he was headed to Syracuse but lost interest with all
the investigations. Who knows, maybe he realized that he'd be playing for
Boeheim ;-) He visited the campus last weekend, with his parents.
Supposedly, if he likes it he's likely to sign soon.

State is also going after another student who is considering coming to
State for engineering (it's between State and Tulane) and a JC transfer
who's 5'7" and plays in the style of Spud and Muggsy. 

TTom
17.1028ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMandingoMon Apr 22 1991 18:4534
)Don't compare Bob's system (small 's') with Dean's System (capital 'S').
)No comparison, dude.  Bob ain't averaged 25 wins per year against better
)competition in a better conference, for 25 years running.  Now *that* is
)a System.  (What Bob has is a great system, and a great ability to muster
)the end-of-season peak.  Nothing to sneeze at, mind you, but in terms
)of consistent excellence he takes a back seat to Deano.)
 
    Reading this ACCrisp drivel reminded me a a_interview on ESPN with
    CoachK during the tourney.  When axed what he thought a Reverend
    Underachievment, CoachK - I swear to gawd - answered back three of the
    four bullets that constitute the AntiDean's Central Tenets:
    
    1) He said `Snuffy ran a clean program (but he sneered a tad, as if
       to imply his disguest with the hypocritical Reverend's wrist-slap
       of his woman-beater point guard.
    
    2) He said 'Snuffy was a great recruiter.
    
    3) He said, and I am quoting here, "if you want consistent excellence
       then Dean's the best.  He wins 20 or more games year in and year
       out and makes the Sweet 16 consistently."
    
    What he didn't say was Central Tenet # 4.  CoachK's face contorted in
    pain and a small drop a blood trickled down his chin as his teeth
    desperately clamped his tempted tongue.  
    
    We all know what Central Tenet #4 is.  And we all know what your cain
    do with 25 cents and a cup a coffee.  So, the 'Snuffer has a System
    where Bob only has a system.  I'll take a cup, please.  And don't use
    the consistent underachievement bean to percolate it, please, make mine
    from the "G" bean.  I git a better rush that way...
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1029"To beat Carolina you must beat The System." - Jim ValvanoRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Apr 22 1991 19:2111
    I've also heard CoachK say, in reference to Dean, that 'The sucker is a
    Great coach.'.
    
    Additionally Jimmy V, not exactly a coaching slouch, is a huge Dean
    fan, and has sad on numerous occasions that No One was more difficult
    to coach against than Dean Smith.  Why?  Game preparation, execution,
    end-of-game situations, etc, etc.  Surely the sign of a horrid coach,
    eh?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1030RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JONew Squids on the BlockMon Apr 22 1991 20:059
    Chris,
    
    Of course Jimmy has won as many title as Dean, with far less talent, in
    much less time.  He's being nice to Mr.. Underachievement.  Dean was
    tough for Jimmy cuz they met in the regular season.  Jimmy knows if
    they ever met in the later rounds of the tourney that Dean's team would
    be a cakewalk!
    
    JD
17.1031Valvano could beat Dean when it matteredSHALOT::HUNTIf Do Then Damned Else DamnedMon Apr 22 1991 20:4516
 To add to this, Jim Valvano's Wolfpack defeated defending ACC and
 NCAA champion North Carolina in the ACC Tournament Semi-Finals in
 1983.   NC State went on to win the ACC Tournament (argh!) and went
 on to stun Phi Slamma Jamma for the big enchilada.   Had State not
 won the ACC, they would more than likely have been NIT bound.  Oh,
 and some Air Person was on that Tar Heel team, the one that later
 gagged against Georgia in the East Region Finals.
 
 And then in 1987, Valvano again beat Smith in the ACC Tournament,
 this time in the Finals as Vinny Del Negro was the hero.
 
 Yes, it is true that Dean Smith won some ACC Tournament games over
 Valvano.   But, of course, they were talent wins and were to be
 expected.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1032Valvano never had any talented players. No siree ... [:^(]RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Apr 23 1991 01:1516
    > But, of course, they were talent wins and were to be expected.
    
    Ah yes, the ole 'talent win'. 
    
    Definition:		Any time North Carolina wins a game. (According
    			to BobHunt.)
    
    The ACC Tournament Finals were labeled a 'talent win' by Mr.Hunt at the
    time.  I wonder if he still feels so strongly about us being so
    terribly more talented than the Nerds, given the way they blew away the
    field in the NCAA Tournament. 
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
17.1033Article on Dean and UNC from this weeks Poop Sheet:RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Apr 23 1991 01:4940
The aftermath of the Tar Heels' Final Four disappointment leaves Dean
Smith in a familiar position: feeling the brunt of criticism.

Two years ago, critics said he had lost his recruiting touch.  Then, piece
by piece during last season, he delivered one of the finest classes ever.
Still, his team on the court was his worst in more than 20 years.  Critics
said he had lost it, that he was too old to adjust to today's game.

This year, Smith thought he had fended off the vultures.  He returned to
the Final Four for the first time since North Carolina won it all in 1982.
Better yet, he did it with a team full of players the media loved to hate.
Smith likes nothing better than proving a writer or two wrong.

But things didn't exactly end so nicely.  Not only did his squad fall
apart against Kansas, but Duke finally won the national championship,
focusing attention eight miles east of Chapel Hill.  

Smith's worst nightmare had finally put the last piece in the puzzle;
his program, not Dean's, was now the one the country was beginning to
emulate.

So after 30 years as the Tar Heel mentor, Smith still can't get it right.

Never mind that he's been to more NCAA Tournaments than anyone ever --
21 to be exact.  Never mind that once he's been there he's won.  Eleven
straight trips to the Sweet Sixteenis not a great accomplishment.  Just
ask all those other great teams which do it ... like Syracuse.

Never mind that he's won 80 percent of his games over the last 25 years
with no hint ofscandal.  In a time when a team like UNLV's is celebrated
as one of the greatest ever, he doesn't bend the rules -- no Prop 48's,
no jucos, no international quick fixes.  No cars, no fathers as assistants,
no writing off kids in the program just so he can land a top recruit.
And no forgetting about players once they stop taking the court for him.

His players attend class and graduate.  What a louse.

Maybe that sounds a little rah-rah, but with Smith's success, people tend
to los a little perspective on what is really important in his record.
    
17.1034"We lost but we're still better" ... Ah Luv ItSHALOT::HUNTIf Do Then Damned Else DamnedTue Apr 23 1991 02:1820
 21 NCAA Tournaments ... blah, blah, blah ... 11 straight Sweet
 Sixteens .. blah, blah, blah ... 80% of his games over 25 years ...
 blah, blah, blah ... not like UNLV ... blah, blah, blah ... no 48s,
 no jucos, no "hired guns", no cars, ... blah, blah, blah ...
 
 Ah, sniff, sniff, the fine pungent aroma of Carolina Excellent
 Lossism.
 
 Methinks the Poop Sheet missed a few items ...
 
 Not even a clue how to beat mirror image Kansas ... 93 substitutions
 in 39:15 minutes ... benched Montross in favor of brick-laying senior
 ... pissed and moaned all game long until referee had no choice but
 to send him packing ... upstaged successful opposing coach with sad
 handshake ritual ... shall we continue ???
 
 Quick, send me a copy of the rag, Soup. I got a bird cage that could
 use a new liner.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1035WMOIS::RIEU_DRead his lips...Know new taxes!Tue Apr 23 1991 10:283
       Jist makes you feel all tingly, don't it!! I hear people actually
    pay to read that stuff. Amazing!
                                      Denny
17.1036no mention of his classlessness?? DUKE DUKE DUKECNTROL::CHILDSWhen it matters, Dean never winsTue Apr 23 1991 12:107
 They ought to outlaw that Poop Sheet what a waste of our valuable natural
 resource, Trees!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 poor poor poor Dean hahahhahahaaa

 mike
17.1037ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMandingoTue Apr 23 1991 15:1810
    ACCrisp defiled my home with a copy a one a them Poop Sheets.  Taking
    it personally, and literally, I used the thing for several days running
    as just that: A poop sheet.  Now, I am facing hemmorhoid surgery, my
    Sugar Rim tore up from the sharp-edged paper filled with hopeful lies
    printed with lurid inks...
    
    When my Doc axed me, upon examination, "who's that down there?"  I had
    to answer truthfully, "Eric Montross."
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1038Wahoos finally loadedSHALOT::HUNTIf Do Then Damned Else DamnedTue Apr 23 1991 15:2123
 Well, the final piece of the Virginia recruiting puzzle has fallen
 quite nicely into place.   Yesterday, Cory Alexander signed with the
 Wahoos over Arizona.   He was the top-rated high school point guard
 in the country and Gibbons had him rated the 13th best player
 overall.
 
 Jeff Jones has now signed 4 players listed in the Top 50 and his
 class is now being called the "greatest freshman class ever recruited
 by a first-year coach."   True or not, it is nice to hear.
 
 To be fair, I will go on record right now with my hopes and
 expectations for this class.   As this class matures, I am expecting
 to see serious annual contention for the ACC regular season title, a
 consistent spot in each year's Top Ten, and serious pushes towards
 multiple Final Four appearances.   And the NCAA title should not be
 totally out of reach.  Anything less is underachievement.
 
 Final Four in Charlotte in 1994.  This class will be juniors then. 
 Could the Wahoos be in Charlotte then ???  Be still my beating heart.
 
 Nicely done, Coach Jones.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1039Alexander a giant pickup, but your expectations are too high KetchRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Apr 23 1991 16:2510
    *HUGE* pickup for Jones.  HUGE.  Nicely done.
    
    MorT, that was a 'Carolina Blue' I sent you, not_a Poop Sheet.  The
    later is traditionally very rough on Carolina, so much so that I almost
    cancelled my subscription a time or 2.  
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1040AXIS::ROBICHAUDQuicheLorraine,Soccer,BoatingTue Apr 23 1991 17:4910
    later is traditionally very rough on Carolina, so much so that I almost
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    cancelled my subscription a time or 2.  
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris

   	It was pretty rough on MrT too!  8^0
17.1041Harris leaves No CarolinaHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughTue Apr 23 1991 17:5813
Kenny Harris has left Dean and the Tar Heel program. Last seen, he was
headed to Virginia Commenwealth. I guess the infamy of losing with Dean
was too much for this very talented guard.

That leaves my buddy Cliff Rozier as the next most likely to hit the
road, one way or the other.

The Poop Sheet, published in Chapel Hill, NC, is not "very rough on
Carolina", traditionally or otherwise. What they don't do is dote over
Dean like the Blue Line and that is considered anti-Dean in the closest
Tar Heel quarters.

TTom
17.1042ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMandingoTue Apr 23 1991 18:036
    Boy you got that right.  I looked down at that picture a 'Snuffer
    and King Lice and it was that shiny, thick paper like a Penthouse
    or a Playboy or a Hustler... and I said, I'm supposed to wipe my
    ace with *this*?!
    
    MrT
17.1043Kenny, we hardly knew ya! (Or saw ya play - heh heh!)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Apr 23 1991 18:0813
    Good move by Kenny Harris - I wish him the best.  He's got talent but
    clearly was destined for a reserve role.  Question now is, who's gonna
    backup Derrick Phelps, and gawd help us if Phelps gets injured, cause
    there's *nobody* to fill his shoes.
    
    In other transfer news the Poop Sheet reported that Brian Reese was
    denying rumors of his desire to transfer to St. John's during the Final
    4, and the rumors of Rozier leaving are circulating widely.  This would
    be a tough loss, but would certainly help Dean out with his player
    rotations.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1044rotational problemsHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughTue Apr 23 1991 20:2810
>    ... This would
>    be a tough loss, but would certainly help Dean out with his player
>    rotations.

Chris,

You don't mean to imply that Dean can't adequately manage player rotation
and needs to have some of them leave before he can, do you?

TTom
17.1045Can't keep everybody happy, even if your name is DeanRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Apr 23 1991 20:328
    Dean can handle it better than anybody, as he proved this season.  But
    let's be honest, he's never had this many good players to try and work
    into the rotation.  
    
    Hence, his job just got easier, and may get easier if Rozier goes.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1046ANSWER ME !!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMandingoWed Apr 24 1991 14:1313
    >But let's be honest, he's never had thismany good players to try and
    >work into the rotation.
    
    We already are honest.  But based on the statement above it looks
    like you're still wallowing in the mire of self-serving fantastic
    intellectual-dishonesty.
    
    I'm steal awaiting a_answer to the question I axed two weeks ago:
    
    	"Apart from recruiting, who is the better coach, Dean Smif'
         or Robert Montgomery Knight?"
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1047TTom calls ACC to the carpet and spanks him bad!!!CNTROL::CHILDSWhen it matters, Dean never winsWed Apr 24 1991 14:396
 You'll never get that boot out of your mouth Chris after that one...

 ;^)

 mike
17.1048From the mouths of babesVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERLet Sununu hitchhike!Wed Apr 24 1991 16:4114
    	>"Apart from recruiting, who is the better coach, Dean Smif'
        > or Robert Montgomery Knight?"
    
    If you ask someone who really had to decide because it meant a lot to
    him personally, well, let's just do that!
    
    Eric Montross, who's the better coach? Whom do you want to play for and
    learn the game of basketball from?  Now, Eric, I know you're from
    Indiana, and just love Bob Knight and those Hoosiers, but think about
    your career.
     
    Eric: "Dean Smith."
    
    
17.1049ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMandingoWed Apr 24 1991 17:1429
    >From the mouths of babes
    
    Or from the mouf' of a pathological fibber named Dan.
    
    It's established fact that Montross' dad did everything possible
    to dissuade Eric from playing for Bob Knight.  As I've pointed out
    to you before, this was because of a contretemps between Bob and
    Eric's dad over the 50% cut the shyster was trying to take from
    paralyzed ex-Hoosier star Landon Turner's lawsuit payout from, I
    believe, Ford Motor Company.  Bob went public calling for Mr. Montross
    to reduce his cut to a more normal percentage, and publicly cowed him
    into doing just that, thereby garnering his ex-player hundreds of 
    thousands that he otherwise would not have got.  Oh, and Bob dipped
    into his own bank account for about $75,000 as the first donation to
    the Turner Fund he set up to see that he had enough money to live on.
    
    Reviewing the Dan-M.U.'s in .1048:
    
    1) He presumes that the answer to the question cain be objectively
       be answered by a_anecdotal event.
    
    2) He obfuscates the Truth by failing to mention that Eric publicly
       said that he wanted to play for Bob, and that his Dad more or less
       said that he'd be disowned if he did.
    
    You're hot today!
    
    Big10 Tom
             
17.1050Where the rubber hits the road (recruiting), Dean > Bob.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Apr 24 1991 17:2116
>    1) He presumes that the answer to the question cain be objectively
>       be answered by a_anecdotal event.
    
    Dan's answer is as good as any, considering you're asking a question
    that cannot possible be answered objectively. 
    
    
>    2) He obfuscates the Truth by failing to mention that Eric publicly
>       said that he wanted to play for Bob, and that his Dad more or less
>       said that he'd be disowned if he did.
    
    You wouldn't care to offer a *source* for this information, would you? 
    I didn't think so, cause it's a flat-out lie.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1051And then the apologists are supposed to say they didn't want him anywayVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERLet Sununu hitchhike!Wed Apr 24 1991 17:3616
    >As I've pointed out
    >to you before, this was because of a contretemps between Bob and
    >Eric's dad...
    
    Yes, you've pointed it out before, but you have very little
    credibility, so it's a wash.  You've never offered any evidence, and
    your the only source for this nugget of information.
    
    What's more, whatever difficulties Bobby's personality caused him with
    Montross senior says nothing about why Eric snubbed IU and elected to
    choose UNC.  You don't know if your suspicious sounding story had any
    influence in Eric's decision, yet you pretend it's the only reason.
    
    Yet another clear example of MrT's intellectual dishonesty.
    
    Dan
17.1052ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMandingoWed Apr 24 1991 19:5322
    It's established fact in the world or Reality that the whole
    unfortunate thing went down.  How cain I offer a source?  Input
    a full-motion video file of TV news tape?  Input an image file
    of newspaper articles?  
    
    The Landon Turner thing happened.  It was debated endlessly in
    Indiana during the recruiting process.  Eric's shyster dad got
    nasty with the Indianapolis Star for implying that he was taking
    revenge.  It's all established in Reality, but cain't possibly
    be established in here.
    
    Being called a liar by Dan's OK, cuz Dan's a known liar.  But it
    hurts coming from *you*, my old buddy Chris Knorr.  :^(
    
    Typical scenario: Bob loses out cuz a his Principle, Dan throws 
    his ususal bad seed innuendo, poor MrT tells the Truth, and a liar,
    and even a decent human bean, call him a liar for daring to tale
    the Truth.
    
    Sigh.
    
    Poor MrT 
17.1053AXIS::ROBICHAUDHomer,Plato,Voltaire,MrTWed Apr 24 1991 19:552
    
    
17.1054Just one source, MrT? Just one? Please? Ever?VAXWRK::SCHNEIDERLet Sununu hitchhike!Wed Apr 24 1991 20:031
    
17.1055ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMandingoWed Apr 24 1991 21:3923
    >Just one source, MrT?  Just one?  Please?  Ever?
    
    O, Evil One, Air Snide, schneid, how quickly you "forget."  Just
    yesterday you claimed that Calbert Cheaney wasn't top50, I pointed
    out that you were wrong, and a source - Street & Smith's - was
    provided. 
   
    I and others in here have learned that there's no pleasure, no
    taking of face, in proving your fantastic assertions wrong, for 
    when this is done you simply ignore the evidence.  A recent example
    a this was also yesterday, when you sought to "prove" that I said
    Tarkanian was responsible for the nation's educational crisis by
    quoting me saying something quite different.  
    
    Face it, intellectual honesty is something you just don't give a 
    damn about.  So why should I bother trudging to the library or
    through databases when you're incapable of shame.
    
    Remember, Air, it's *you* who has the credibility problem, who so
    frequently gets caught with your hand reaching into Mr. Truth's 
    pocket, not me.
    
    MrT
17.1056No source available, cause it's pure fiction.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Apr 25 1991 12:5314
    Just to clarify things, MorT, I'm not denying that Eric's dad didn't
    have a run-in with Bob in regards to the Turner incident.   I'm also
    not denying that this may have played a part (even a big one) in Eric's
    decision.
    
    What I *AM* upset with is you claiming that young Eric actually made
    public statements that either said he couldn't play for Bob because of
    what happened with his dad or implied as such.  Everything I've heard 
    indicates it was his decision to make and that he picked UNC in a 
    close 3-horse race because of Dean's outrageous success in transforming 
    big, raw, studly centers into big, polished, studly N-B-A breadwinners.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1057Yeah, but Soup, what about da books ???SHALOT::HUNTIf Do Then Damned Else DamnedThu Apr 25 1991 15:0315
17.1058A good argument worth repeating. (thanks for the setup Bob!)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Apr 25 1991 15:277
    Last I checked there was no mutual exclusion between getting your
    college degree and learning how to play hoops.
    
    Lokar, on the other hand, had no interest in the former, IMNSHO.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1059Worth repeating, since he ducked it againVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERLet Sununu hitchhike!Thu Apr 25 1991 15:303
    >Just one source, MrT?  Just one?  Please?  Ever?
    
    Dan
17.1060RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOAlbatross!!Thu Apr 25 1991 15:386
    UNC Centers:  
    
    I Know of Brad Daugherty - but who are the others that Dean has
    polished??
    
    JD
17.10617221::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Thu Apr 25 1991 16:325
    UNC Centers:
    
    Mel Turpin.  The only thing that Mel polishes is his plate...
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
17.1062FDCV07::KINGJesse's Jets!Thu Apr 25 1991 16:483
    Didn't Turpin go to kentucky????
    
    REK
17.1063To name a few ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Apr 25 1991 16:5413
    Wake up D-boy - we ain't never had a Mel Turbine at UNC, although the
    dreaded Kaintucks did.
    
    We *did* have:
    
    McAdoo
    Kupchak
    Reid
    Daugherty
    LeGarde
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1064And still more myth, baby blue style ...SHALOT::HUNTIf Do Then Damned Else DamnedThu Apr 25 1991 17:0518
 When Soup says "centers", JD, he means "big men" as in those players
 over a certain height.
 
 That's how JR Reid qualifies as one of Dean's "big" students ... Gene
 Littles' evaluation of his play notwithstanding, of course.   
 
 Bob McAdoo played anything but center in the NBA and Dean only had
 him in "development" for a year or two but, hey, who argues with the
 facts when you can pump up the fiction.
 
 Kupchak and LeGarde were strictly role players.   Daugherty and maybe
 Sam Perkins are the only Carolina "big men" that I can recall having
 any kind of an impact in the NBA.
 
 Yet, a certain Soupster would have believe that Montross chose
 Carolina because it's the Home Of The Big.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1065RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOAlbatross!!Thu Apr 25 1991 17:1927
    Chris,
    
    Besides from Daugherty, that list doesn't have any real centers. 
    McAdoo was probably one of the most undisciplined chuckers there ever
    were.  He could score, but geez, he was closer to Orlando Woolridge
    than to say, Patrick Ewing.
    
    Lagarde???  hahahahaha
    
    Kupchak - tough injury ruined him - good backup and role player.
    
    J.R. Reid - the guy caint even do a pick n' roll and you are harping on
    him.  J.R. is closer to Armon Gilliam than to say, Billy Cunningham...
    
    The big men (using Bob Hunt's definition) from UNC that were all around
    players, besides from Doherty, were Bobby Jones and maybe Billy the
    Kid.
    
    Worthy is a small forward - stud scored, okay bounder, assists???
    
    Perkins - good steady ball player.  Not a star.  Was misused at Dallas
    in his early years (playing center against studs...)
    
    When I think of a good NBA Center who learned his lessons well and got
    the most of his ability, I think of Mike Gminski.
    
    JD
17.1066McAdooRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Apr 25 1991 17:309
    > Bob McAdoo was anything but a center
    
    Wail just what do you think he was, a PG?  He most certainly was a true
    center, despite his incredible outside shooting ability.  (I can
    vividly recall him and Jabaar going mano-a-mano countless times when
    Big Bob was with Buffalo.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1067Near unparrelled record of success for DeanVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERLet Sununu hitchhike!Thu Apr 25 1991 17:3222
 >Bob McAdoo played anything but center in the NBA and Dean only had
 >him in "development" for a year or two but, hey, who argues with the
 >facts when you can pump up the fiction.
    
    Bob McAdoo won something like three consecutive scoring titles and back
    to back MVPs playing center for the Buffalo Braves.  He played center
    for the Knicks as well. 
    
 >Kupchak and LeGarde were strictly role players.   Daugherty and maybe
 >Sam Perkins are the only Carolina "big men" that I can recall having
 >any kind of an impact in the NBA.
    
    Kupchak certainly had an impact in the NBA.  He was a pivotal player
    for those nice Washington Bullet teams in the late '70s and it's a real
    shame his back hindered his career so much before his knee all but
    destroyed.  And just one more piece of impact: Kupchak certainly
    impacted the Lakers when they beat the Celtics in the '85 NBA Finals,
    and if the Bob Hunt I know and have been reading for these years
    doesn't appreciate that impact, he might as well start calling himself
    MrT jr.
    
    Dan
17.1068Kupchak good not greatSHALOT::HUNTIf Do Then Damned Else DamnedThu Apr 25 1991 17:5646
17.1069STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishThu Apr 25 1991 18:0812
    Didn't Swen Nater start at Center for the Buffalo teams in the McAdoo
    days???  Just can't remember if he did or not....McAdoo at 6'9" and
    210-220 lbs isn't in the Center mold.....
    
    Either Kupchack or LaGarde were a forward on Dean's teams, seeing that
    they both started together in 75 and 76(hint, Kupchak played forward,
    LaGarde played Center).
    
    North Carolina has developed very few centers(Not many colleges do,
    Indiana sure doesn't)...
    
    Cap
17.1070Tough to hit a moving target (and man is Ketch movin'!)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Apr 25 1991 18:099
    I don't recall Montross saying Dean was 10/17 at placing big men into
    the HoF Ketch.
    
    If you want to hold this against him, fine (you've certainly done worse
    as far as Dean's concerned), but we're talking job placement into the
    NBA here, not induction ceremonies @ Springfield.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1071RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Apr 25 1991 18:1213
    No Cap, Big Bob was most definitely a starting center for Buffalo.  As
    I said, I can vividly recall numerous Jabaar vs. McAdoo battles, and I
    can just as easily recall many arguments I used to have with people
    about who was the better center, Jabaar or McAdoo.  [Guess which one I
    argued for?! ;^)]
    
    In regards to LeGarde/Kupchak, for the most part Tommy was playing
    backup to Kupchak.  He didn't really see significant minutes until
    Mitch was gone.  Rarely did they play together, and I don't recall them
    ever starting together.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1072What are you trying to prove?VAXWRK::SCHNEIDERLet Sununu hitchhike!Thu Apr 25 1991 18:1339
 >Sure, and Magic Johnson played center in Game Six of the 1980 NBA
 >Finals against the Sixers.
    
    You're comparing Johnson's game at center with McAdoo's YEARS???  He
    was a center no matter how you slice it, even if his best low post move
    was the turnaround J.  He tipped off, he played center on O, he played
    center on D.  There's nothing left to prove in this direction.
    
 >Pivotal player for the late '70s Bullets ???   I don't think so. 
    
    Then think again, because that's the way it was.  Kupchak was highly
    regarded around the league as a player every team wanted to have.  His
    back problems kept him from big minutes, but even if you don't want to
    acknowledge it, the other teams did.  I know the Lakers and Knicks
    always considered him a major thorn in the side.  When he became a free
    agent, the Lakers leapt at him and awarded him a huge contract (at the
    time).  [You forgot Phil Chenier.]
    
 >Take Mitch Kupchak off
 >the Lakers and they may still win the NBA Title
    
    That's totally irrelevant to your point, but I'd like to think it's
    true.  But to analyze without your current anti-UNC bent, the
    difference between the '84 Lakers who painfully lost the title and the
    '85 Lakers who won was the inside play, defensive toughness and
    rebounding of Mitch Kupchak and Kurt Rambis.  Mitch was a total gimp by
    then, but he played his role to the complete frustration of the
    Celtics.
    
 >For that matter, name me just one of Dean's so-called "big men"
 >centers that is or will be in the Basketball Hall Of Fame.  
    
    What new species of intellectual dishonesty is this???  Only Hall of
    Fame centers count now?  The only coach I can think of who has done
    better that I can think of is Wooden.  And that's the way it is with
    most analysis of college hoops coaches:  Wooden at the very top and
    Dean very near it.
    
    Dan
17.1073STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishThu Apr 25 1991 18:2618
    Starting line-up 1975(Lost to Syracuse in Semifinals of NCAA)
    
    Phil Ford                                                 
    B. Hoffman                                                
    Mitch Kupchak                                             
    Tommy LeGarde
    Walter DAvis                                              
    
    Starting Line-up 1976(Lost to Alabama in first rd of NCAA)
    
    Phil Ford                                                 
    J. Kuester                                                
    Tommy LaGarde                                             
    Mitch Kupchak                                             
    Walter Davis
    
    I'll recheck tonight but I believe that those were the starting
    line-ups during those two years....
17.1074Not a bad collection of players, BTW.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Apr 25 1991 18:295
    Hmmm...  you could be right.  I swear I don't recall LeGarde starting
    much or playing alongside Kupchak though.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1075DECWET::METZGERThere's a jar with your name on it.Thu Apr 25 1991 19:0211
If any of those players went to a school other than UNC would they still have
been in the pros? ....definately yes.... They were genetically mutated enough
to have a build for pro hoops..

Once again it comes down to Dean is a great recruiter....

You can't prove anything else....


Metz
17.107610/17. 10/17. 10/17. 10/17. (etc, etc.)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Apr 25 1991 19:438
    I agree Metz - *we* can't prove anything.  And yet I'm still left to
    ponder the quote the young (and highly intelligent) Eric gave us when
    he announced his college choice.
    
    Where the rubber hits the road, folks ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1077RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOAlbatross!!Thu Apr 25 1991 19:5827
    But Chris,
    
    In all honesty, I'm trying to figure out who the long lineage of
    centers developed by Dean has in it.  No joke.
    
    In all honesty, Dean seems good at developing role playing sixth men -
    Kupchak, Bobby Jones, Walter Davis, the young Billy Cunningham, McAdoo
    in later years, etc...
    
    I see McAdoo as a gunner.  Like I said, closer to Orlando Woolridge
    than to a real center.  He was never a totally dominating center,
    though - he was an offensive machine, however.  No doubt about that.
    
    Brad Daugherty, when healthy, is a pretty complete package, though he
    seems a little slow.  But he's an extremely good passing center.
    
    Worthy, Perkins, Reid have never shown me any good passing ability -
    Worthy's triple double in the finals notwithstanding.
    
    Remember Chris, a lot of the players I mention are players that I've
    rooted for as pros.  Bobby Jones is and always will be one of my
    favorites of all times.  A great defender, and a great finisher.
    
    However, I fail to see the legacy of big men coming from the ranks of
    UNC.
    
    JD
17.10787221::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Thu Apr 25 1991 20:168
    ACC Chris,
    
    I owe you an apology regarding Turpin going to UNC(le), he actually did
    go to Kentucky.
    
    Let the bashing continue........
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
17.1079heheheheRIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOAlbatross!!Thu Apr 25 1991 20:206
    The flip side to this "how great Dean is at developing NBA talent
    studs" is that it lends even more credence to the fack that Dean chokes
    on the talent he has.  All them studs, and one teeney weeney title in
    31 years....
    
    JD
17.1080Door #3 for all the anti's, no doubt. :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Apr 25 1991 20:2314
    So which side do you want JD:
    
    1. Dean doesn't develop talent
    
    or 
    
    2. Dean chokes with excess talent he's developed.
    
    or
    
    3. Dean doesn't develop talent and chokes with the no talent he has.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1081Go for Michael; he's all that's leftVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERLet Sununu hitchhike!Thu Apr 25 1991 20:297
    If there's someway to say "Michael Jordan sucks and it's Dean's
    fault", they'll find it.
    
    Bob will write 100 lines about it, JD will swear to it, and MrT will
    say he saw it on secret satellite scrambled transmissions.
    
    Dan
17.1082Ha! RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Apr 25 1991 20:331
    
17.1083RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOAlbatross!!Thu Apr 25 1991 21:0247
    Nah Dan, as usualy, you are wrong.  
    
    Let's see.  Chris says something about Dean's legacy of building
    centers.  I honestly wonder about this legacy.
    
    Despite my saying that many of the players were good players, but not
    centers, you jump in and start with typically snotty remarks.  
    
    Pretty funny.  BTW, I'm pretty sure JOrdan would have been a star no
    matter where he went - and he didn't go the full 4 under dean.  I feel
    the *SAME* way about Isiah Thomas.  SO perch and twirl.
    
    The bottom line is that Dean doesn't have a legacy of building NBA
    center studs.  The proofs there.  He has developed some very good and
    some great players, and some pro stiffs (like Joe Wolfe).   Of course,
    Dan will take that line as a criticism of Dean.  I've shown where it
    seems that Dean has a knack for developing good 6th men/role players
    (Davis, Jones, et al)   This Dan takes as a criticism of Dean.  
    
    I've said that while Bob McAdoo was a great offensive player, he wasn't
    a dominating center.  He had defensive deficiencies, and was a ball
    hog.  Of that there is no denying.  McAdoo won some scoring titles, and
    was invaluable off the bench for the Lakers.  Of course, Dan takes that
    as a criticism of Dean.  
    
    Mitch Kupchak was a valuable role player.  He was limited by injuries.
    He helped the Lakers by spelling Jabbar and adding some hustle to a
    prima donna lineup.  He is know pretty successful in the front office.
    
    Of course, that is a criticism of Dean Smith, right Dan?
    
    The one fact that can not be explained is that despite all of this
    beef, all of this talent.  Hall of famers (Cunningham), dominating
    players (Jordan, Worthy), great role players (Jones, Davis, Kupchak, et
    al), and other great ball players - Dean Smith has been able to mold
    them into a championship team once.  Despite continued excellence in
    the regular season, he can't coach them past the tough opponent - he
    can't bring them over the hump - can't motivate them to reach down and
    rise to the occassion.   And that's the limiting factor with Dean
    Smith.
    
    I honestly feel Smith should have won a minimum of five titles with the
    talent he's had spinning through Chapel Hill.  ANd if he had done that,
    he very well might be the greatest college coach ever.  But he hasn't -
    so he isn't.
    
    JD   
17.1084ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMandingoFri Apr 26 1991 03:0452
    >Bob McAdoo
    
    B McAdoo superstarred for Vincennes, Indiana, Junior College, where
    he was forced  go cuz a academic deficiencies.  Many still consider
    that team the best JC squad ever.  When he got his grades up to snuff,
    hwas perhaps the most sought after JCransfer ever.  Dean bagged
    him, and he went on to do at UNC and in the NBA the very same things
    he did from the time in high school.  It's a major league stretch to
    say that he was "developed" by the 'Snuffer.
    
    >Indiana certainly doesn't.
    
    True, but then again Indiana almost never recruits a top center.  It
    looks like that'll continue, after Todd Lindemann came up looking like
    a stiff in last weekend's Dapper Dan.  He's developed some, though.
    He took a total incompetent in Uwe Blab and got him at least
    serviceable enough to hang in the NBA for awhile.  He had a raw talent
    in Ray Tolbert who also stuck in the pros for awhile.  I remember him
    taking Kent Benson from merciless booing and onourt tears to a fairly
    slick, if slow, player.  In his case, btwa training program designed
    for swimmer's was used to double his verticle leap.
    
    re: Montross
    
    His father made no secret from the time that Eric was a junior that he
    didn't want him to even consider Indiana.  Somehow, Eric ended up with
    Indiana on his short list, visited the Bloomington campus, dragging the
    issue into the public with sportswriters opining that if the kid wanted
    to play for Bob maybe the old main should butt out, and the shyster 
    shooting back (validly enoug that sportswriters and letter-writing 
    fans should mind their owned damned business and stay out of his family's
    affairs.
    
    Todd Leary, Eric's best friend and teammate, tales a quite different 
    story from the fantasy put forth by ACChris and Air.
    
    None, including me, will ever know whether Montross woulda chosen
    Indiana over UNC, he made no public statement that he went to UNC 
    against his will, including me.  Bu this hopeful and self-serving
    fantasy that he chose North Carolina cuz a this apocryphal story about
    'Snuffer developing centers (what a joke!) being the reason ignores 
    a unique, publicly documented, undisputed fact that bore extremely
    heavily against Bob signing him.  
    
    No one in Indiana really expected him to sign with the Hoosiers.  The
    smart money was on Michigan.  Everybody knew iwas unlikely that a 
    17 year old was gonna go against his old man.  Also, once the mess 
    got rolling, Eric got sick of the Hoosier public's meddling, which 
    made any such unlikely decision all the less likely.
    
    MrT
    
17.1085Try again, Schneid, you'll get it right somedaySHALOT::HUNTIf Do Then Damned Else DamnedFri Apr 26 1991 05:1431
17.1086AXIS::ROBICHAUDFri Apr 26 1991 10:5310
17.1087All logic flies out the window when Ketch & UNC come togetherRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Apr 26 1991 11:5133
    re: BobHunt
    
    Shouldn't Chicago fans be equally POed that no Bulls coach has won a
    Title with Michael?  He's certainly been in the NBA alot longer than he
    was at Carolina.
    
    Your argument is, of course, ridiculous.  Michael was a great player at
    Carolina, but to say that because of that he should've gone 3/3 in the
    Title department is absurd.  But hey, don't believe me, just ask Jordan
    himself what he thinks of Dean and the influence he had on his
    development.  (FWIW, Michael worships at Dean's feet more than either
    Dan or I.)
    
    
    re: Mac vs. Jabaar
    
    Glad I could get your Friday off to a good start, /Don.  Big Bob never 
    was known for his "D", although he did haul down his share of boards and
    was, of course, completely uncontrollable offensively.  I agree with
    MorT though - McAdoo was megatalented and Dean's influence on him was
    minimal.  (Hence his notoriously poor 'D' and morally bankrupt shot
    selection.)
    
    I loved McAdoo though.   The only time I ever got excited about the NBA
    was when he was with the Buffalo Braves.  McAdoo I would've paid money
    to watch play.  Jabaar was *boring*.
    
    No doubt Kareem was better in the long run, but give Mac his due.  He
    won a Title, won an MVP, won several scoring titles, and had a very
    long and productive career.  In fact, he's still playing in Europe.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1088Mike, Bob, others and ArcherHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughFri Apr 26 1991 13:0323
re: McAdoo.

His records at No Carolina include the first JC transfer and the first to
leave early. That's right. Big Bob spent a grand total of one season with
Dean. Don't get to carried away because, a) he got his degree and b) him
and Dean are big buddies. I've heard Dean say good things about Bob on
many occasions. Go figure.

re: Jordan.

The way he and Chicago are playing, he just might get that elusive NBA
ring this year. But hearing him about his accomplishments, you can tell
he feels that they are complete without the ring. 

re: Big Men.

What about Pete Chilcutt? Scott Williams? Warren Martin?

And on a completely different note, Virginia has signed former LSU head
coach, Mike Archer. The Hoos are obviously trying to keep the level of
their football team up to a national level.

TTom
17.1089LUNER::BROOKSI'm having an old friend for dinner...Fri Apr 26 1991 13:1212
    re .1064
    
    Small nit Bob. McAdoo played quite a bit of center with the Braves and
    Knicks. He was certainly better at forward, and took less of a beating,
    but he wasn't a bad center.
    
    Kupchak was more than a role player is first few years with the
    Bullets. In fact, he was a very promising power forward, in the Oakley
    mold. Remember that the Lakers signed him to a BIG contract. Then of
    course, he demolished his knee, and was never the same player.
    
    HTH
17.1090The True Gauntlet Thrown DownSHALOT::HUNTIf Do Then Damned Else DamnedFri Apr 26 1991 14:0230
 Okay, here's the ultimate test for the Hare Smithnas.   If you can
 pass this one, you've won the battle and the argument will cease for
 all time.
 
 I want you to make believe that all the Anti-Deans in here, myself
 included, are true Baby Blue, 1,000% authentic, lifelong, live-or-die
 *FANS* of the Tar Heels.   Pretend that we've all been season ticket
 holders for the entire Smith regime.  Pretend that we contributed
 megabucks to the construction of the Dean Dome and that we insisted
 it be named after him.   Make believe we go to the ACC Tournament
 every year and make believe we also attend their NCAA games, too.  
 Hell, pretend we name our children and pets after Dean and his
 players.
 
 Okay, ready ???
 
 We, as loyal *FANS* as described above, say Dean Smith is a massive
 underachiever who chokes in the NCAA's way way too much.
 
 Now prove your point the he isn't an underachiever and that he
 doesn't choke in the big NCAA games.   And, don't forget, for the
 purpose of this exercise, that we want them to win it all every year.  
 We're *FANS*.  Tell us why you don't think he's a gagger.   Help us
 see him in a way we can't understand right now.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  And please don't bring up the argument that a loyal fan doesn't
 criticize the coach.   Big "intellectual dishonesty" penalty points
 if you try to use that cheap crutch.
17.1091Got an A+ on my examVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERLet Sununu hitchhike!Fri Apr 26 1991 14:4111
    >          -< Try again, Schneid, you'll get it right someday >-
    
    No, Bob.  I got it exactly right the very first time.  {And what
    happened to your end of the 'agreement'?}
    
    You'll use anything to critisize Dean Smith, no matter how unworthy a
    piece of subject matter it is.
    
    JD, are you ready YET to define "big game" for me?
    
    Dan
17.1092Seeing hoops for what it isVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERLet Sununu hitchhike!Fri Apr 26 1991 14:448
    >(FWIW, Michael worships at Dean's feet more than either
    >Dan or I.)    
    
    Hey Chris.  I don't worship at Dean's feet.  I have very few college
    basketball alliegences, and for this reason can afford to be objective
    on the subject.  {Unlike an unnamed many...}
    
    Dan
17.1093If titles = satisfaction, every fan of every team is dissatisfiedVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERLet Sununu hitchhike!Fri Apr 26 1991 14:4911
 >Now prove your point the he isn't an underachiever and that he
 >doesn't choke in the big NCAA games.   And, don't forget, for the
 >purpose of this exercise, that we want them to win it all every year.  
    
    Define a "big game" for me, teacher!  Please...  I can answer your
    question a lot better when someone finally defines a big game
    objectively.  Until now in here big game seems to be defined as whenver
    UNC loses, but these post facto definitions don't seem to me to be
    intellectually honest, and I know you wouldn't want that.
    
    Dan
17.1094Enough tap dancing, Schneid, get crackin'SHALOT::HUNTIf Do Then Damned Else DamnedFri Apr 26 1991 14:567
 Okay, Dan, you want a definition of a *BIG* game.  You got it.  Real
 simple.   Lose it and you go home for keeps until nexted year.
 
 And, don't forget, pretend we wanted him to beat Kansas.   But, he
 didn't and so pretend we're pissed.   Now do your thing.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1095ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMandingoFri Apr 26 1991 15:019
    >Worth repeating, since he ducked it again
    >
    >Just one source, MrT?  Just one?  Please?  Ever?
    
    Air, are you saying that I have never, ever, provided a source on
    any issue in here?  A simple yes or no will do, if you're capable
    of that.
    
    MrT
17.1096Thanks, BobVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERLet Sununu hitchhike!Fri Apr 26 1991 15:2934
>Lose it and you go home for keeps until nexted year.
    
    So, simply put, for a team like UNC which at this point in time is a
    pre-season lock for the NCAA tourney, we are talking about all NCAA
    tourney games.  Lose 'em and you go home for keeps.  I know in years
    past this wasn't the case, that the ACC tourney was a lose it and go
    home for keeps deal as well, or did the NIT doors open then?  I wasn't
    following, so I'll stick with the NCAA.
    
    Now in a past incarnation of SPORTS, I put in the definitive objective
    histories of coaches Smith and Knight.  In my research, I found that
    Dean Smith has a splendid NCAA tournament record.  I think it was about
    5th best of all time.  It might have been a little better than that; it
    might have been a little worse.  But when you stack it up on the same
    scale of all coaches, using the Bob Hunt Official Big Game Measuring
    Stick, Dean Smith is in the 99+ percentile.
    
    And so, Bob Hunt, UNC-fan de luxe, baby blue bleeder, Dean Smith
    worshipper, deep pocketted alum, if you're concerned about Dean Smith
    as an underachiever, take a look at that.  We applied the standard that
    one of Dean Smith's most severe critics concocted, and he's still a
    shining success.
    
    There is a valid criticism of Dean.  He could win more titles.  As
    could any coach.  He consistently comes tantalizingly close, unlike
    almost any coach who suffers a lot of downs between the occasional ups,
    but that only exacerbates the issue.  But almost everyone can see that
    coaching is much more than the NCAA title, and almost no one is silly
    enough to make that the only measurement.   If titles is your only
    goal in being a college hoops fan, you're not going to like any coach. 
    If you think there's more to the game, you're not going to do better
    than Dean Smith.
    
    Dan
17.1097I had to elaborateVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERLet Sununu hitchhike!Fri Apr 26 1991 15:306
    >Air, are you saying that I have never, ever, provided a source on
    >any issue in here?
    
    No.  That's not what I'm saying.
    
    Dan
17.1098say what thenANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMandingoFri Apr 26 1991 16:3913
    >No.  That's not what I'm saying.
    
    Sure seems like that's what you're saying, what with the parts 
    about "just once?" and "ever?"  It seems nearly impossible that
    that's not what you're saying.  You seem to be saying exactly 
    what your words are saying.  Say what you're saying, whatever
    that might be, and say "No!" to your characteristic obfuscation
    and low-browed trickery.
    
    Just once, show the intellectual honesty to stand tall and proud
    and speak forthrightly, like, say, me.
    
    MrT
17.1099Big Picture ain't good enough, Dan.SHALOT::HUNTIf Do Then Damned Else DamnedFri Apr 26 1991 16:5243
17.1100Put on a happy faceVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERLet Sununu hitchhike!Fri Apr 26 1991 17:2126
 >Ah, yes, I see what you're saying.  You're saying that, as loyal
 >fans, we have no choice but to see the huge - overall - global -
 >great big - scheme-of-things picture that says Dean is one of the
 >best at winning lots of games.
    
    No, I'm saying any objective system you want to choose that makes the
    last degree of sense, aside from just measuring NCAA titles, leaves
    Dean at or near the very top of his profession.  I'm not saying "look
    at the big picture".  I asked you for the measurement, and I just
    applied it.
    
 >He was supposed to win those *BIG* games and he didn't. 
    
    If you, the loyal fan, are gonna be bummed every year he doesn't win
    the title, you're gonna be bummed often.  If it's any consolation, it's
    not gonna help much even if you switch loyalties to another team,
    unless, perchance, you can transport your self to the 1960s and become
    a die hard UCLA fan.
    
    So, Baby Blue Hunt, it might seem like a dismal picture if all your in
    it for is to win the NCAA title, and everything else ranks as a huge
    disappointment, but it seems a lot worse to me (although more
    acceptable to you) to not have the consistent excellence than to have
    it.
    
    Dan
17.1101Just pointing out the well-defined patternVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERLet Sununu hitchhike!Fri Apr 26 1991 17:2917
    >Sure seems like that's what you're saying, what with the parts 
    >about "just once?" and "ever?"
    
    I was alluding to your famous history of entering the make believe as
    fact into this notesfile.
    
    You remain the only source I know for the story of Montross Sr.  I'm
    not saying it happened or it didn't, but coming in the context of
    another Knight apologia, it raises suspicions.  But than to exacerbate
    that tenuous situation with the claim that Montross Jr. really wanted
    IU and not UNC, in trying to avoid all the obvious conclusions that can
    be made when the wide body stud, boy-next-door snubs Knight and goes to
    the rival you're most jealous of, you have sufficiently transcended the
    bounds of intellectual honesty to have it pointed out (again).
    
    Dan
       
17.1102Still tap dancin', eh, Dan ???SHALOT::HUNTIf Do Then Damned Else DamnedFri Apr 26 1991 17:4250
17.1103Bob says "NO" to his own standardVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERLet Sununu hitchhike!Fri Apr 26 1991 18:1036
    >                  -< Still tap dancin', eh, Dan ??? >-
    
    I might be tap dancin', but you're calling the tune.  I asked you for
    the measurement, you provided it, I applied it.  To find something
    wrong with that is to not accept your own standard.  It has nothing to
    do with me.
    
 >you haven't convinced me that he didn't gag against Kansas.         
    
    There probably never will be a sporting event where the most severe
    critics of the losing team couldn't blame the coach.  If you *really*
    want to hang Dean for the Kansas game, I can't talk you out of it.  If
    you want to know how a more objective fan sees it, Dean is a lot
    further down on the list of things that went wrong than you're putting
    him.  To list the reasons is to endure your tirade about excuses.  I
    will defer, as inside I think you're not as unreasonable as you're
    letting on.
    
 >Yes, but if I switched and became a Bob Knight fan, I'd be 200%
 >happier in two-thirds less time. 
    
    Maybe, but if you were a Knight fan with a similar critical eye that
    you've turned to Smith, you have to consider that you might be
    miserable about the series of early exits, embarrassed by the history
    of crass behavior, and nonplussed by the lack of significant pro
    representation.  It might more than wash 2 more titles, if you could
    keep that criticism turned up to that high a frequency.
    
 >the
 >Excellent Loss book.   "We're consistently excellent."   Well done,
 >Dan.                                                          
    
    Another entry in the Intellectually Dishonest book for you.  Do you
    really need to keep lowering yourself like this?
    
    Dan
17.1104Air substitutes artifice for substanceANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMandingoFri Apr 26 1991 20:3969
  
    >>Sure seems like that's what you're saying, what with the parts 
    >>about "just once?" and "ever?"
    
    >I was alluding to your famous history of entering the make believe as
    >fact into this notesfile.
    
    Oh, so you were merely lying with the "just once" and "ever" parts.
    Talk about clearly identified patterns...

    >You remain the only source I know for the story of Montross Sr.  I'm
    >not saying it happened or it didn't, but coming in the context of
    >another Knight apologia, it raises suspicions.  

    You've always been a lazy debater, more often than not relying on the
    unimpressive technique of impugning your opposite's motives in lieu
    of factually rebutting the substance of his point.

    >But than to exacerbate
    >that tenuous situation with the claim that Montross Jr. really wanted
    >IU and not UNC, 

    He short-listed and visited IU over his father's public objections,
    which is a statement in itself.  He also during the recruiting 
    process stated that he was leaning toward IU, but acknowledged the
    pressure he was under to go elsewhere.  Todd Leary backed all of that
    up after he chose UNC.

    Nowhere did I state that he was forced to go to UNC, only that he had
    a strong interest in IU despite heavy pressure to not even consider 
    the program because of perhaps the most unique set a circumstances in
    the history of recruiting a 1st Team HS A-A.

    >in trying to avoid all the obvious conclusions that can
    >be made when the wide body stud, boy-next-door snubs Knight and goes to
    >the rival you're most jealous of, you have sufficiently transcended the
    >bounds of intellectual honesty to have it pointed out (again).
    
    No "obvious conclusion" cain be drawn under abnormal circumstances
    where the player's father was publicly humiliated by the coach years
    earlier for attempting to take an unusually high cut of a settlement
    from a paralyzed hero of a national championship team and later 
    publicly stated that he held a grudge against the coach for what 
    had happened.  

    You're in no position to pontificate about intellectual honest when
    you purposefully pretend that this didn't have a bearing on the 
    situation.

    And the 'Snuffer's the "rival I'm most jealous of?"  No way.  The
    rival I'm most jealous of is Michigan, no matter what stupid hoops
    coach they have at any given time.  I kinda like the 'Snuffer, but
    deride his putative "G" string, and bemoan the fack that he's hyped
    like so much soap by the media when in fack it's proven that he's 
    a choke-a-holic.

    Some things I like about the 'Snuffer's coaching (stated before):

    - Teaches good ball handling and passing
    - Teaches good motion on offense
    - Teams are well-drilled in multiple defenses
    - Teams always hustle
    - Gets fairly good shot selection and role playing
       
   There are a lotta geeky things about him, too, but the key thing is
   that he's the all-time worst Big Game Choke Artist in the game's
   history (sorry, Guy).

   Big10 Tom
17.1105RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOAlbatross!!Fri Apr 26 1991 21:1518
    So, if Dean is so good at recruiting, and so damn good at molding these
    recruits into NBA talent - why can't he mold them into a college team
    taht wins NCAA Champeenships?
    
    That's the question that needs to be answered.
    
    Is Dean only good at building individuals, but can't build a true team?
    
    Is Dean not a good game coach??
    
    Or is it naturally okay for a coach to have great recruits, NBA
    talents, and yearly losses to underdogs.   For the most part, UNC has
    been the favorite when it loses.  (Exceptions are ones Bob mentioned,
    such as Arkansas 90.)  Since it happens often, it seems hard to blame
    it on random happenings.  Hmm, the one constant in all of those losses
    has been Dean Smith.  Hmmm.  Easy to come to a conclusion.
    
    JD
17.1106Dan's wandering again (0-9 on this o)ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightSat Apr 27 1991 01:52109
    
 >There probably never will be a sporting event where the most severe
 >critics of the losing team couldn't blame the coach.  

 So what.  We're not talking about any single game.  We're talking about
 career of Big Game futility based on a sample take over three decades.
  
 A reasonable assessment of the facks lead one to the inevitable conclusion
 that the 'Snuffer's great recruiting gives him the talent to ride deep
 in to the tourney each year and, when his squad meets up with one of the
 same talent or something even remotely near to the same talent, he consistently
 loses... chokes.

 No blame-laying about any single game relates to this, and it's meaningless
 for you to imply as much.

 >If you *really
 >want to hang Dean for the Kansas game, I can't talk you out of it. 

 Lazy debating again.  Cops out by claiming he cain't talk someone out a
 something instead of stating why the 'Snuffer shouldn't be "hung" (and
 he isn't hung, based on his courtside demeanor) for the Kansas game.
 Out a credible material, too skeert to address the specifics a the issue?

 >If you want to know how a more objective fan sees it, Dean is a lot
 >further down on the list of things that went wrong than you're putting
 >him.  To list the reasons is to endure your tirade about excuses.  

 And to not least them is to argue on thin air, Air.  And calling Bob's
 fact-based well-reasoned thoughtful insights about why they *are* 
 excuses it to endure his Bob's Big Game Loss Measuring Stick (and Bob
 could hang you on *his* Stick, based on his terminal-side deameanor). 

 >I will defer, as inside I think you're not as unreasonable as you're
 >letting on

 Self-serving speculation involving no substance, only more impugned
 motives...

 >>Yes, but if I switched and became a Bob Knight fan, I'd be 200%
 >>happier in two-thirds less time. 

 >Maybe, but if you were a Knight fan with a similar critical eye that
 >you've turned to Smith, you have to consider that you might be
 >miserable about the series of early exits, 

 This statement fallaciously implies that the 'Snuffer's had no early
 exits himself, which isn't true.  In fack, the 'Snuffer has probably
 the single most "embarrassing" early exit in history, when The Greatest
 Team Of All Time was beaten by one a Indiana's least talented teams.
 That it took place against Bob, and happened largely cuz Bob was able
 to shut down one a the Greatest Players Ever - your cuz Air Jordan - with
 a club-footed big-butted back-up named Dan Dakich makes, that the most
 important piece a anecdotal evidence applicable to this debate.

 Also, given that Bob has one a the best overall tourney winning percentages,
 your fallacious implication is all the more incredible.

 >embarrassed by the history of crass behavior, 

 Naming a_arena after yourself - while you're steal coaching, with only
 one paltry Title in three decades with a_ocean a talent - is crassness
 personified.  So is paranoid treatment of the hoops press.  So is incessant
 whining to the refs. I think Bob would indeed be proud a Bob's comporture.
 Bob's not paranoid, he's frank - too frankor the toadying, personality-
 orientATed media.
    
 Also, taki $75,000 out a his own pocket and giving it to tha paralyzed
 player ain't embarrassing.. unless the one being embarrassed is crass.

 And anyway, fact-checks almost always demonstrate that his alleged crass
 behavior to've been the concoctions of tabloid sports journalistm [sic].

 >and nonplussed by the lack of significant pro representation.  

 Why?  Bob'd be rooting for Bob as a college coach, and nothing more.  You
 must remember, Bob-the-Star-Hell fan or Hoosier fan is from Chapel Hill or
 Bloomington, not some scumbag school where people view college hoops as 
 some David Stern minor league player development operation.  Chances are 
 he'd be almost totally concerned with what happened in connection with his
 beloved alma mater, and little else.

 I know I aim.  In fack, I cain't stand the NBA, and I love basketball.

 >It might more than wash 2 more titles

 Oh no you don't.  Rephrase that to say "it might more than wash 2 more 
 Titles in twelve fewer years with much less championsip-level talent" and
 we'll look the other way... but watch it.
    
 >>the Excellent Loss book.   "We're consistently excellent."   Well done,
 >>Dan.                                                          
    
 >Another entry in the Intellectually Dishonest book for you.  Do you
 >really need to keep lowering yourself like this?
    
 N at all. This debate isn't about whether the 'Snuffer i's a good coach.  
    Of course he is.  He's even a fine coach, one a the game's 
 innovators, its leaders. 

 No, this debate is about whether ol' Reverend UnderAchievementFac
 has indecently donned a_ill-gotten "G"-string... and why we Antiswe 
 reasonable men, shouldn't rip it from his rupture-prone, leaky rusted 
 plumbing that lay beneath. 

 The intellectual dishonesty resides in dissembling that sneering at
 "consistent excellence" when confused with Greatness.

 Big10 Tom 
17.1107Forget the rumors. He's gone. :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueSat Apr 27 1991 23:1833
    Clifford Rozier's UNC basketball career is in the history books folks. 
    He's transfering, along with Kenny Harris.  Neither has publicly stated
    where they're going.  (TTom mentioned Harris to Virginia Commonwealth. 
    I have no idea where Rozier will go, but you can be sure there are tons
    of teams interested.)
    
    As I mentioned to TTom via personal mail, Rozier was facing the
    prospect of either:
    
    a) Beating out George Lynch for the PF position
    
    or 
    
    b) Praying that Lynch can move out to the wing position.  (Something
       he tried and failed to do prior to this season.)
    
    Given that Lynch is one of the *toughest* players ever to enroll at
    Chapel Hill (he'd charge over his grandmother if she was unfortunate
    enough to get in his way en route to the hoop) the chances of the
    former were slim, and the chances of the latter were shaky at best. 
    Besides, why would Dean want to move Lynch to the wing when that's one
    position pretty well covered.  (Reese and Sullivan)
    
    You always hate to see a talent like Clifford go, but I'm afraid he got
    caught in a numbers game that just wasn't playing out his way.  Whoever
    gets him will have a talented player on their hands, but also one who
    has alot of work ahead of him before he's ready to match the
    expectations placed on him out of HS.  Sitting out a year surely won't
    help.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.1108A look ahead to the '91-92 Tar HeelsRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueSat Apr 27 1991 23:2428
    With the departures of Harris and Rozier the Carolina rotation for next
    year is somewhat solidified, which is a bit of a welcome relief given
    the incredible player shuffling Dean opted for last year.  (With
    considerable success, BTW.)
    
    Right now the starting lineup looks set, with:
    
    C	Montross, Eric	(So)
    PF	Lynch, George	(Jr)
    SF	Reese, Brian	(So)
    WG	Davis, Hubie	(Sr)
    PG	Phelps, Derrick	(So)
    
    Significant bench play will come from:
    
    Rodl, Henrik	(Jr)
    Sullivan, Pat	(So)
    Salvadori, Kevin	(So)
    Williams, Donald	(Fr)
    
    The *big* problem is who will back up Derrick Phelps at PG.  The
    candidates are few and far between.  Scott Cherry is not, IMO, a 
    high Division 1A player.  The freshman Williams is known as a shooter,
    but if he can ball handle he'll get a look.  Davis is shaky with the
    ball, but hey, beggars cain't be choosers!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1109Like clockworkSHALOT::HUNTIf Do Then Damned Else DamnedSun Apr 28 1991 08:0223
 Rumors have Clifford Rozier looking at Florida, Florida State,
 Louisville, and Kentucky.  Kenny Harris is indeed looking at VCU.
 
 I guess Rozier and Harris made their intentions known to Snuff
 earlier this month because most people thought Carolina had finished
 its recruiting with only Donald Williams, the NC POY, coming on
 board.
 
 Not true ...  
 
 On the 3rd of April, Carolina made its first contact *ever* with
 Larry Davis, South Carolina Player Of The Year with a 44.7 ppg
 average.  Smith made one visit to the young lad's home; Davis made
 one visit to Chapel Hill and, boom, that quickly, he signed with
 Carolina on Friday.
 
 George Mason had been recruiting Davis for over a solid year. 
 Clemson and South Carolina were also after him.
 
 So, now Carolina has *both* the NC and SC POYs.   Inside of a month. 
 Unbelievable.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1110SACT41::ROSSKnocking down the trey againSun Apr 28 1991 14:0716
I don't know, Chris, but that UNC team is not very awe-inspiring.
After Lynch and Davis, there's three big question marks.  The
Sweet 16 run will end in 1992, I believe.   

Re: Bob Hunt

Larry Davis was not the SC player of the year - it was
Derrick Carroll who has signed with USC.   

A very interesting part of the Davis signing is that he
has yet to qualify for the 700 SAT score.  Seems like
Dean may have lowered his standards a little to fill the
hole at guard.   Davis says he'll go to prep school if he
doesn't reach 700.  {Hey, Larry, why don't you read a 
couple books instead of playing ball all day?  Ooh, what
a concept!}
17.1111SACT41::ROSSKnocking down the trey againSun Apr 28 1991 14:092
Also, didn't Dean have a very prolific scorer out of NJ
some years ago who ended up as a bench warmer?
17.1112Fascinating turn of events, if you're into recruiting.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Apr 29 1991 01:5331
    The attitude of BobHunt over our signing of WG Larry Davis is typical
    of the elevated expectations that go along with Carolina basketball.
    (Not yer fault Ketch - the media propagates this stuff and it's tough
    to resist, I'm sure.)
    
    This kid was not on *anybody's* Top_whatever list, but now that he's
    signed with Carolina he's suddenly the prolific 45ppg, South Carolina
    Player-of-the-Year.  (He'll no doubt be cast by the media as a 
    combination Michael Jordan/Walter Davis style player, or some such 
    nonsense, before he even puts on his baby blues...)
    
    His academic situation is troubling, though hardly unprecedented @ UNC
    (Dean has a long track record of going with mostly smart kids mixed in
    with a few dummies that he can keep his eye on), but worse than that,
    he's not even the backup PG that we need so *desperately*, but rather a
    high-scoring wing man who looks to be about 4th string at this point.
    
    I can only assume that Dean has detected some serious ball-handling
    abilities in this young lad otherwise, quite frankly, we've got no use
    for him.
    
    One other interesting twist to this is that Davis was being pursued
    hard by South Carolina, Jimmy Black's employer at the moment.  But
    USC's assistant coach (and head recruiter) just flew the coup to East
    Carolina, apparently giving the Cocks no chance for Davis.  Hence Dean
    went in for the late kill.  
    
    Wow!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1113Looking ahead.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Apr 29 1991 13:2017
    > I don't know, Chris, but that UNC team is not very awe-inspiring.
    
    Never said it was awe-inspiring Mr.Ross, just pointing out reality. 
    
    I'm not quite so pessimistic, although it's somewhat disheartening
    going into a season knowing you're playing for 2nd place.  I think
    Montross and Phelps have the ability to provide far more production
    than Chilcutt and Rice did, both offensively and, especially,
    defensively.  Replacing Rick Fox will be difficult, but the challenge
    is open to both Brian Reese and Patrick Sullivan.
    
    Bottom line, of course, is that while the players come and go there's
    one constant at Carolina who we all know will put together a VERY
    competitive team.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris 
17.1114Just as Montross gave his endorsement, can we assume the opposite?NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Apr 29 1991 13:3712
    
    So what can be inferred from this desertion of two, young talented
    players from the Dean system?  I thought there was supposed to be
    more to playing for Dean than PT, and that the players appreciate the 
    extras Dean gives them, to a fault even.  Last week's discussion on 
    the Montross affair centered on this very issue.  Is Dean losing it 
    on the motivational, human guidance side of his coaching philosophy?  
    Or are these two just a couple of ingrates?  I can't believe Dean is 
    as content with this development as ACChris seems to be...
    
    glenn
    
17.1115Why Rozier is history in Chapel HillSHALOT::HUNTIf Do Then Damned Else DamnedMon Apr 29 1991 13:3933
17.1116Maybe he will transfer to Duke!SHALOT::MEDVIDcould not hear or see for jealousyMon Apr 29 1991 13:507
    To back up .1115, and Bob Hunt will corroborate this, during the UNC
    Kansas game I asked about every 15 minutes or so, "Where is Rozier? 
    Why is he not playing?"
    
    'Splains a lot.  Thanks, Bob.
    
    	--dan'l
17.1117Rozier wakes up...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Apr 29 1991 14:017
    
    Well, we probably won't be hearing how Knight ran Funderburke off the
    team for a while, or how he's absolutely the wrong type of coach for
    young, raw, undisciplined kids...
    
    glenn
    
17.1118Rozier won't stay in the ACC. Bank on it.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Apr 29 1991 14:2911
    Rozier will not surface at Duke and it's *highly* unlikely he'll go to
    FSU.  
    
    The reason?  There's any unwritten rule in the ACC (and perhaps other
    conferences as well) that you do not take other schools transfers.
    
    Louisville might be a good place for him.  He's undisciplined and would
    probably fit in well with Denny Crum's style of play.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1119but not forgottenHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughMon Apr 29 1991 15:539
On this, Chris and I agree: Rozier will not be in the ACC nexted year.

How about Arizona? They seem to like transfers and their last from the
ACC - Brian Williams from Maryland had quite an impact. 

Bob Hunt: were you saying the Donald Williams was POY of NY? I think he's
from Garner. Maybe you're thinking of King Rice;-)

TTom
17.1120Rozier talented, but at UNC that's not enough.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Apr 29 1991 16:0348
> Regardless, it's hilarious to watch Soup already start ragging on
> him.   Getting that "underdog" woodie all stroked up again, eh, Soup,
> ol' buddy ???

No, just stating the facts.  Larry Davis hasn't been mentioned on
any of the HS All-America teams.  (McDonald's and Parade are the two
I follow.)  Larry Davis wasn't even listed in S&S - and they list a
tons of players.  Larry Davis may have scored alot of points in HS,
but the level of competition was very weak.  (Hint: in the recruting
biz, the competition is *everything*.)

Bottom line #1:	Carolina needs ballhandlers and we needs 'em *badly*.  

Bottom line #2: It's an acknowledged fact that any time Carolina shows
		interest in a kid or signs a kid his perceived ability
		skyrockets.
 

> Can you blame Rozier for bookin' a flight outta town ???

No I can't, cause he was staring at the prospect of playing behind George
Lynch for two (2) more years.  Believe me, the chances of Clifford beating 
Lynch out were slim to none, cause George is *mean* and this kid strikes me 
as someone whose had everything handed to him on a silver platter his entire 
life and ain't gonna work for nothin'.  (TTom sez his coach even told Deano
Clifford weren't no 'practice player'.  Nuf said.)


> "The System" claims another victim.  

'The System' requires a player to prove himself on the practice floor
before being handed a boatload of PT.  'The System' requires a player
to learn defense first, offense second.  'The System' requires a player
to be fundamentally sound, or at least progressing on that road, before
being handed a license to shoot at will. 

Of course, you and Clifford know more about basketball than Dean.  Not
putting out in practice should be rewarded with more game time.  Offense
comes first ('specially the playground kind) and, if you get a chance,
learn some defense.  Fundamentals?  Who's got time?!

Yup.  You and Clifford: hoop geniuses!!

:^(


- ACC Chris
    
17.1121More on Clifford's SayonaraSHALOT::HUNTIf Do Then Damned Else DamnedMon Apr 29 1991 17:3950
 The recent information printed about Rozier's exit did indeed claim
 that his high school coach told Dean he was not a good player in
 practice.  So be it ...   There's all kinds of "lines" you can read
 between on that one.
 
 And, yes, college hoops practices are critical to the amount of
 playing time a college player gets.   But practices really do serve
 at least *two* separate and distinct purposes ... 1) practice allows
 a player a relatively non-pressurized chance to learn a coach's
 "system" of play and 2) it also gives the coach a chance, for better
 or for worse, to "typecast" or "predict" a player into a certain role
 for later use in games.
 
 With Rozier, Dean had the "Great Unknown".   Because Rozier didn't
 put out as hard in practice, Dean's "The System" had little way of
 knowing just how predictable his player was and, thus, he couldn't
 pigeon hole him into a defined role.   Thus, when he saw Rozier spin
 off a blacktop move, he yanked him, for keeps.
 
 But keep in mind what the Kansas players said after they had beaten
 the Heels ... The two mirror image systems had virtually crossed each
 other out.  Everyone knew the same plays, the same cuts, the same
 defenses, the same hand signals, ...  The Jayhawks to a man said it
 was their ability to improvise outside the system that created the
 winning edge.
 
 And just where was Clifford Rozier during that game ???   Riding some
 hardtime pine, that's where ...   For doing what ???   For doing what
 just might have won the Kansas game, that's what ...
 
 Now maybe you know why we want Roy Williams to stay the hell in
 Kansas, Dorothy.   He's learned everything and then some from the
 Snuffmeister.
 
 Yeah, I know it's real tough for a college coach to just let his
 players create on their own.    Tarkanian deals with that particular
 stress by chewing folded wet towels.  Smif' deals with it by
 absolutely forbidding it.   Even if it might very well have been just
 the thing that could have won the biggest game of the season.
 
 Smith worships his RoboSeniors because, by then, he's browbeaten all
 that scary freelance stuff out of them.   There are no Clifford
 Rozier-style seniors in Chapel Hill.   Never have  been, never will
 be.
 
 How much you wanna plunk down that says Rozier goes on to a
 phenomenal college hoops career somewhere else where he'll be
 encouraged, from time to time, to just play for play's sake ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1122Sacrifice your principles, and *then* get beaten. (No thanks.)RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Apr 29 1991 18:4035
> And just where was Clifford Rozier during that game ???   Riding some
> hardtime pine, that's where ...   For doing what ???   For doing what
> just might have won the Kansas game, that's what ...

Anybody who's watched Rozier play this year would know full well he wasn't
gonna carry us to a win over a seasoned team like Kansas.  The kid's most
horrible detrement is his halfcourt defense, which is, well, horrible.
You don't play at Carolina if you don't play defense.  That's a fact.
His second huge problem is his uncanny need to put the ball on the floor
when he gets it in the paint.  Turnovers come in huge bunches as a result.
His third problem is his weak fundamentals, which result in playground
moves and the resulting poor percentage shot.

Combine all these and BobHunt comes up with the bizarre conclusion that,
yes indeedy, Clifford Rozier coulda put UNC on his shoulders and carried
us to a Final 4 'W'.  Yea, right.

 
> How much you wanna plunk down that says Rozier goes on to a
> phenomenal college hoops career somewhere else where he'll be
> encouraged, from time to time, to just play for play's sake ???

Oh yes, history is full of examples of players transferring from North
Carolina and going onto great collegiate careers.  Why not share a few
of these with us, Ketch.

What history *is* full of examples of is players leaving North Carolina
and going onto great professional hoop careers.  Why?  Cause Dean has
taught them the fundamentals of the game which, combined with their
own abilities, gives them a leg up on the competition.  It's entirely
probable that Clifford Rozier will not enjoy this competitive edge.


- ACC Chris
    
17.1123Looks like it's Soup Season againSHALOT::HUNTIf Do Then Damned Else DamnedMon Apr 29 1991 19:0344
17.1124Weakest of a long line of weak arguments.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Apr 29 1991 19:115
    Your improvisation argument is extremely weak Ketch, not to mention a
    gross over-simplification.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1125who knowsHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughMon Apr 29 1991 19:1814
Here's the thing that I can't figure out: Why did Dean go for Rozier.
Here's his coach telling Dean that Cliff don't like to practice. Watching
the guy warm up you can tell he knows how to play the game. But it's
apparent to everyone, no matter how they say it, that Cliff was a misfit
in the System. Did Dean think he could change Rozier and make him a
better practice player? Nothing in it adds up.

Harris is another matter. He did everything that Dean asked him and he
got rewarded by being left out of the rotation.

Now Dean has signed up a couple of shooters. It's a forgone conclusion
that neither will have a green light immediately, if ever. 

TTom
17.1126best laugh in agesCNTROL::CHILDSAlmost as misunderstood as ClemensMon Apr 29 1991 21:4914
 RoboFox just keeps doing his energizer bunny he keeps missing and missing
 and missing...seriously and I mean seriously roolward Sir Robert of Hunt.
 In fact I was laughing so hard I think I went Turfward...hahahahaaa

 keep twirlin Soup you're loosing badly but it is fun to see...

 I figure these guys saw what we all know for years the system sucks there
 ain't no how no way they'll be able to put championship credentials on their
 resume as long as they stay at the Hill....

 hahahahahaahaha

 mike
17.1127I just wanted to share this with you...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMandingoWed May 01 1991 19:346
    You know, it jus toccured to me that Dean Smith, with only one
    Title in 33 years despite all that talent, is only a fraction of
    the coach Bob Knight is - in terms of Greatness - in light of
    Bob's 3 Titles is 20 years even with lousy recruiting.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1128a_insightHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughThu May 02 1991 11:280
17.1129Fack. Plain as the nose on joe face.ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMandingoThu May 02 1991 12:431
    
17.1130A serious deen to wonkWORDY::NAZZAROPursue, capture, incarcerateThu May 02 1991 14:488
    Can somebody down Carolina way list all the players that have
    transferred out of ACC schools in the past few weeks?  I know
    the Heels lost a couple, Clemson one, Tech one, and maybe one
    or two others.
    
    Thanks.
    
    NAZZ
17.1131Dean endorsement from someone who oughta knowRHETT::KNORRACC: Conference of the 90'sThu May 02 1991 16:4321
Excerpts from recent interview with Scott Williams, a UNC grad now
sitting the bench for the Chicago Bulls:

Q:	How well did coach Dean Smith prepare you for the NBA?

A:	I think I'm far ahead of a lot of guys, even some of our second-
	year players.  I think Coach Smith really prepared me for the
	game of basketball (by teaching) the fundamentals.  A lot of
	people here don't have fundamentals, and even throughout the NBA,
	some of those skills are lacking.  Some of the drills we did over
	and over in college sometimes got old, but I thank Coach Smith 
	every day to myself that he made me work on my ballhandling,
	boxing out, and some of the other drills that seemed ridiculous.
	It works to my advantage.  I may not be able to run as fast or
	jump as high as some of the other guys, but I've got the mental
	edge.  Just knowing the fundamentals gives me the mental edge
	that helps me compete.


- ACC Chris
    
17.1132Spoken like a true bench-warmer...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu May 02 1991 16:531
    
17.1133Transfers in the ACC (an update)RHETT::KNORRACC: Conference of the 90'sThu May 02 1991 17:1024
    re: .1130 (Nazz)
    
    Before we get to the transfer update, consider this:
    
    "Transfers are a non-issue as far as I'm concerned."
    
    - MrT
    
    
    Now, here's what I know about transfers in the ACC:
    
    o North Carolina is losing Kenny Harris and Clifford Rozier
    o Duke is losing Billy McCafferty
    o Georgia Tech is most likely losing Daryl Barnes, although 
      apparently no one is interested in him. (He's got bad knees.)
    o Virginia is losing one of their bench-warmer forwards.  (Forget
      his name.)  Rumors that Cornell Parker would transfer were
      apparently incorrect, BTW.
    o Clemson is losing one of their freshman guards.  Think it's the
      kid Burks from Southern Pines, NC.  (Doesn't matter - none of 
      them were any good anyways.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1134They always understand and acknowledge the edge Smith gave themVAXWRK::SCHNEIDERSununu escaped from Animal FarmThu May 02 1991 17:336
    >                -< Spoken like a true bench-warmer... >-
    
    Yes, but Glenn, I've read very similar quotes from the likes of
    Daugherty, Worthy and Jordan.  Any snappy comebacks for them?
    
    Dan
17.1135"Dean always taught me to stay within my abilities", etc.NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu May 02 1991 17:419
    
    > Yes, but Glenn, I've read very similar quotes from the likes of
    > Daugherty, Worthy and Jordan.  Any snappy comebacks for them?
    
    Well, gee, Dan, I don't know.  Give me the quotes so I can read between
    the lines for ya...
    
    glenn
    
17.1136I appreciate the informationWORDY::NAZZAROPursue, capture, incarcerateThu May 02 1991 17:424
    Thanks, Chris - I thought I heard that Clemson was losing somebody
    good, but if they're at CLemson, somebody good is an oxymoron.  ;-)
    
    NAZZ      
17.1137This is what they said...this is what they mean....DECWET::METZGERServing donuts on another planet.Thu May 02 1991 18:0512
Quote from Joe NBA on his college coach....


"Frankly my college coach sucked eggs. He never taught me anything. All the 
hours I spent at practice were a waste. I could never fathom all the squiggly 
lines he was drawing on that board. I would have been better off going to 
another school where they let you party more. Lucky for me I have some ability
that the other 99.9% of the population doesn't have. This allows me to hang on
with an NBA team and earn far more money they I would have ever imagined."


17.1138You'd know better, right?VAXWRK::SCHNEIDERSununu escaped from Animal FarmThu May 02 1991 18:065
    >Give me the quotes so I can read between the lines for ya...            
    
    Don'tcha mean read into the lines?
    
    Dan
17.1139Williams speaks for the minority, I agree.RHETT::KNORRACC: Conference of the 90'sThu May 02 1991 18:367
    You're right Metz - most college players probably would say something
    like that.  Fortunately Scott Williams (who compiled a > 1200 on his
    SAT's) doesn't fit into that unlucky bunch, cause he had the wisdom to
    select Dean has his teacher.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1140ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYThu May 02 1991 19:0119
    >"Transfers are a non-issue as far as I'm concerned."
    >
    >- MrT
    
    Say, that was in a private communication!  You start quoting from
    mails and I'll post clippings of your various admissions or the 
    guffaws you've had at the expense of your only ally's various
    theories, dastisticks (tm), and facks (tm).  
    
    And, 'Crisp, the *sickest* thing about this whole Bob vs. 'Snuffy
    great debate was the revelation that you didn't even attend UNC-CH,
    that you do this naked twister routine VOLUNTARILY.  Ack.
    
    But, I stand by the quote.  Tranfers are a normal part of the game,
    and pose no harm to anybody, and it's beyond stupid for Dean's NCAA
    graduation rate to be downgraded cuz Rozier didn't like the style of
    play or his prospects for PT there.
    
    MrT
17.1141Too many transfers is, IMO, a bad sign for a program.RHETT::KNORRACC: Conference of the 90'sThu May 02 1991 19:168
    Just gettin' you back for quoting some p-mail of mine the other day,
    MorT.  
    
    As to me not attending UNC-CH, remember: Dean didn't attend there
    either!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1142ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMandingoFri May 03 1991 02:066
    Yeah, but 'Snuffy has no choice but to defend his sad-sack
    record.  You, *you* chose that path of your own volition, for
    some twisted reason that only a convicted game show host cain
    fathom!
    
    MrT
17.1143missed you guys the last four days..CNTROL::CHILDSLord of the WoodiesFri May 03 1991 10:3310
 Also Chris, it's not his teaching of fundamentals we're questioning it's
 his stubborness towards his seniors and what he does once the whistle blows 
 and they toss the ball up....

 I will admit we did get on him pretty bad about JR's pick and role (obviously
 JR's fault) but hey anything that's there for bashing is free game and open
 to questioning....

 mike
17.1144AXIS::ROBICHAUDFri May 03 1991 11:041
    	I think MrT should pay Caught for this "straight man" bit.
17.1145Rice on DeanRHETT::KNORRACC: Conference of the 90'sFri May 03 1991 12:4130
Last year around this time me and Dean were taking mega-flack over 'The
King Rice Affair'.

Well a year has come and gone and Rice went on to have a great senior
year, particularly in the later half.  His turnovers were almost non-
existent.  He was *clutch* (remember the free throws against Temple?).
His shooting, the obvious worst part of his game, was adequate.  He
badly outplayed Bobby Hurley (again) in the ACC Championship game.
He was everything a Carolina fan could want in a floor leader.  I'm
personally embarassed that I was booing him in my living room in the UConn
game [along with just about every UNC fan in the Smith Center :^(].

Anyway here are King's comments concerning Coach Smith at this years
basketball banquet:

"Last, but not least, I would really like to thank Coach Smith.  I could
say the same things about him that I said about Coach Ford.  Alot of 
decisions that I was making weren't good ones for King Rice and his
family or the Carolina program.  At any time, he could have said, 'Kid,
you're out of here.'  But he never did that.  He always let me know that
the most important thing to him was that I had a successful life after
I got out of here.  He wanted to make sure that I had a good time when
I was here, that I got a good education.  I really owe him a lot.  After
last summer he just totally turned my life around to get it going in the 
right direction, and I'm glad he did it.  He stood by me when he didn't
have to, and I'll always owe him.


- ACC Chris
    
17.1146:-) :-)SHALOT::HUNTIf Do Then Damned Else DamnedFri May 03 1991 16:0614
17.1147ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMandingoFri May 03 1991 19:106
    Again, the shocking aspect to 'Crispy Critters propagandizing is
    that he's NOT even associated with the place!  Gawd help us one
    and all!  And no WONDER pied pipers like Rush Limbaugh cain gather
    such bleary eyed throngs!
    
    MrT
17.1148In defense of Chris...SHALOT::MEDVIDcould not hear or see for jealousyMon May 06 1991 13:1418
>    Again, the shocking aspect to 'Crispy Critters propagandizing is
>    that he's NOT even associated with the place!  
    
    That's a very weak point in your otherwise excellent arguements, T. 
    Chris is from NC (I'm pretty sure), and, therefore, has every right to
    choose the Heels as his team.  Just because he never went there doesn't
    mean he can't fight for them to his death.
    
    Yes, I'm a homer.  I like all the Pittsburgh teams.  But I'm also a fan
    of the Dolphins and I've only vacationed in Miami or driven through and
    around it.  I'm a baseball cardinals fan and until last year had never
    been to St. Louis (and peed under the Arch).  I'm a Duke basketball fan
    and I've only seen Durham from a rental car.
    
    Where do you draw the line?  You can't be much of an Indiana fan
    because you never played for Bob Knight.
    
    	--dan'l
17.1149ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMandingoMon May 06 1991 13:3817
    >Chris is from NC
    
    Chris is from the Cincinatti area, which makes this religious 
    conversion all the wierder.  Obviously, anybody moving into 
    ACC count who's presumably hip to the nuances of hoops, wocould
    avail himself of many fine choices - Duke, Tech, NC State.
    
    But why the Star Hells?  My theory is that ACCrisp is a bit of a
    bored-again Christian, and was magnetically aracted to the
    ersatz rigion progated bol' Reverend UnderAchievement in
    that False Temple a his, in which they thump heavily edited gospels
    and exalt their preacher main's abilty to solicit whilst ignoring
    his abject inability to deliver.
    
    Just a theory, but his "selection" is otherse inexplicable.  
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1150For the record, you're both right.RHETT::KNORRACC: Conference of the 90'sMon May 06 1991 14:1514
    > Chris is from NC
    > Chris is from the Cincinatti [sic] area
    
    My how everyone's so concerned about where I'm "from".  Who cares? 
    It's wholly irrelevant to the discussion.  Do we have to start
    producing our sheepskin to "prove" our fandom?  (If so, mebee we should
    take a look at yours, MorT.  You SAY you went to IU, but you SAY a lot
    of thangs!  Haw!!!)
    
    It does trouble me though that you, being a midwesterner and all, don't
    know the correct spelling of The Queen City.  :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1151I thought the "Queen City" was San Francisco?AXIS::ROBICHAUDWorseFearRealizedPresidentDanQuayleMon May 06 1991 14:171
    
17.1152The Clean Queen CitySHALOT::MEDVIDcould not hear or see for jealousyMon May 06 1991 15:4653
    Actually, the Queen City is Charlotte (which was named after Queen
    Charlotte).  They even trademarked this crown emblem that you see on
    every city-realated anything...even the plastic cups at the colesium.
    
    Cincinnati was, is, and always will be the hog butcher of the world or
    something like that.
    
    And, for those of you who think Charlotte is a podunk town, here's a
    short review from the latest issue of the "New Yorker":
    
    
Reprinted w/o permission from "New Yorker" magazine.

New Yorkers don't want to be prejudiced when they go to the boonies. 
They just can't help themselves.  Like calling Charlotte, North
Carolina, the boonies.  How disconcerting to find that the city's nearly
four hundred thousand people don't live in lean-tos.  Cesar Pelli
designed Charlotte's newest office tower, which, when it's completed
next year, will rise sixty stories in the midst of a no-dust-on-me
downtown.

When Charlotte converted a church into a multi-purpose theatre, nobody
screamed blasphemy, the way some New Yorkers did when a deconsecrated
church on Sixth Avenue opened as Limelight.  True, North Carolinians
elected Jesse Helms and can't watch Robin Byrd, but we have the Gambino
family, mothers picketing against contraception dissemination in schools
-- and they get twenty more channels than we do.

Ah, but what do the kids do at night?  Listen to the Grand Ole Opry or
watch "Hee Haw" with Pa?  Not exactly.  They listen to a rock-and-roll
band do pretty O.K. Elvis covers at the Artist's Cafe, go to Pterodactyl
and dance to better music than anyone who frequents the Roxy ever does,
or -- our host's preference -- carry on at Park Elevator, which is not
next to a park and doesn't contain an elevator.  (It's named after its
erstwhile location and is located in a low-slung warehouse in an
untransformed part of town.)

Walk right in.  It's two dollars for members, three dollars for guests,
and for a dollar they check your coat as they give you your admission
ticket.  When we got here, they were just finishing up a fashion show
featuring clothes from Trash & Vaudeville (on St. Marks Place).  The
crowd was partly straight, partly preppy, partly retro, partly gay,
partly black, partly coupled, partly acid-washed, partly tattooed,
partly cuffed, partly leathered, partly prommed (it's the season down
there already, with a majority of the girls in pageant-winning strapless
lame).

There's no eighteen-dollar admission charge.  No limitless line for a
three-dollar coat check.  No sexually, racially, or socially segregated
dance floor.  And when you leave, your car looks the same as it did when
you arrived, and the attendant says, "Thanks for coming."  "Sorry it
isn't New York," said one regular in the parking lot.  No, it's not.
    
17.1153Remember: Pete Gillen lives in my old house!!!!RHETT::KNORRACC: Conference of the 90'sMon May 06 1991 16:217
    I cain't speak for Charlotte, but Cincy is definitely known as The
    Queen City.  It's also referred to as 'The Gateway to the West'.
    My Ohio history is failing me as to the meaning of the former.  The
    later is fairly obvious.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1154Chris Knorr: The PAU PAU Warrior...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYNorthStars: Miracle On 24th StMon May 06 1991 16:4514
    Watch it, dan'l.  Cincy actually is quite a nice city, in my mind
    nicer than Columbus, which always gets the accolades.  I went thru
    Charlotte once, nice downtown.  Couldn't believe how bad the traffic
    was as I drove from the airport to a defense contractor out in 
    a_industrial park in the burbs.
    
    But let's git back to Crispy Critter's credentials: This main, if you
    will remember, was branded by a jury a his peers as a certified nut-
    case (true, a slick talking big city lawyer mainhandled him in that
    trial and may've put him in a worse than usual light)... what could
    be nuttier than *opting* for the  Pope Of UnderAchievement, the Czar
    Of Choke?  Nuthin.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1155Queen RatholeSHALOT::MEDVIDcould not hear or see for jealousyMon May 06 1991 17:0912
    Never said Cincy wasn't a nice town.  However, it's original nickname
    was "hog butcher of the world" (or something like that) so several
    years ago they decided to become the Queen City.  Why the Queen City? 
    Was there a Queen Cincinnati?  
    
    As far as Charlotte traffic goes, it is relevant to the traffic you've
    been in before.  When I first moved here, everyone told me where and
    where not to live due to the traffic situation.  I found, however, that
    the backups people considered to be traffic here was what I used to
    wait in in Pittsburgh to GET to the traffic.
    
    	--dan'l
17.1156Cinci's nickname = PorkopolisNAC::G_WAUGAMANMon May 06 1991 17:121
    
17.1157ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYNorthStars: Miracle On 24th StMon May 06 1991 17:519
    Oh no ya don't.  The Queen City monicker is quite old, as I remember
    gonig all the way back to the days of yore in the 19th century when
    it was a riverboat gamblin' kinda town...
    
    Anyway, I don't see how this is at all relevant to Cripsy Critter's
    suspicious and inexplicable... almost macabre, choice of programs to
    propagate for.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1158Propaganda? Hardly.RHETT::KNORRACC: Conference of the 90'sMon May 06 1991 17:5911
    True - Cinci's been called The Queen City for a very, very long time.  
    
    BTW, I fail to understand how my direct King Rice quote constitutes
    "propaganda".  The kid was reflecting his feelings for Coach Smith and
    giving us some insight at the same time.
    
    If ya keep it up, I'll be forced to enter what Rick Fox and Peter
    Chilcutt had to say 'bout Deano.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1159Clifford Rozier never understood. :^(RHETT::KNORRACC: Conference of the 90'sMon May 06 1991 18:0319
    Okay, that does it.
    
    Q:	If you had to describe Coach Smith in 100 words or less, could you
    	do it?
    
    A:  I could do it in one word.  Dad.  He's a father figure.  You don't
    	really recognize how much he's there for you until you get a little
    	older and you've been through the program.  You realize that
    	although people love you, they're not going to always be pampering
    	you.  They're going to be yelling at you at times.  They're doing
    	it because they want you to be your best.  It's something that I
    	think I understood the whole time I was here.  Even though I wasn't
    	a marquee player coming in, he treated me like one.  He does that
    	to everyone.  Nobody is greater than any other person.  That's what
    	you need in a family situation, and that's why the system here has
    	worked so well.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1160If my dad choked that much I would disown him!AXIS::ROBICHAUDMon May 06 1991 18:061
    
17.1161More ...RHETT::KNORRACC: Conference of the 90'sMon May 06 1991 18:1216
    .-1 was Rick Fox.  Here's Pete Chilcutt:
    
    Q:	How would you describe your relationship with Coach (Dean) Smith?
    
    A:	When I think about Coach Smith, I think about him being a great
    	basketball coach and a caring person.  During your four years
    	here, you know you're going to get the best possible basketball
    	instruction, and that's why I chose Carolina.  That's what I got.
    	An added bonus is that Coach Smith is going to be my friend for
    	life.  That's something I can take with me.
    
    
    Had enough?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1162ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMandingoMon May 06 1991 18:1619
    I just got a mail from a RON in here who offices with our buddy
    ACC Chris... and I really feel like a heel.  It seems that Chris
    relayed the story (in his Valuing Differences seminar) of a near- 
    fatal accident he had when chowing down on some fried carp at the
    Knorr family picnic.  Poor Chris almost choked to death, and was
    only saved when a park ranger administered the Heimlich maneuver
    on him, causing the half-chewed carp to rocket from Chris' purple
    lipped mouf'.  
    
    Chris went on to explain to the class that this was why he'd adopted
    'Snuffy Smif' as his idol, explaining that having experienced a
    choking episode once made him identify heavily with Dean, who stands
    as the ultimate exemplar of survival, cuz he chokes publicly each and
    every year but always makes it out not only alive but even more revered
    by the amazed press and public.
    
    Sorry, Chris.  I'm rilly rilly sorry.
    
    MrT
17.1163Coach: mom, dad, friend, winner, loser = humanSHALOT::MEDVIDcould not hear or see for jealousyMon May 06 1991 18:2910
    I look at my college coach as "dad" also in every way you described and
    some, Chris.  But he is still human and I can still criticize him for
    certain underachievements and laud him for moments of greatness.
    
    Fathers are not above reproach.  No one is.
    
    And as far as that Queen City relevance goes...Queen City...King
    Rice...need I say more?  8-?
    
    	--dan'l
17.1164Perfect? No, far from it. RHETT::KNORRACC: Conference of the 90'sMon May 06 1991 19:037
    Never claimed Dean Smith was deity dan'l.  Only one of the All-Time
    Greats, that's all.  
    
    :^)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1165STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishMon May 06 1991 19:1013
    I don't know, if I was arrested for beatin' women, choking my
    girlfriend, fighting with a cop, destroying public property and making
    an ass of myself by being drunk out of my mind, my Dad would have 
    punished me a little more than making me run laps.  Maybe that's why
    I'm a fine, upstanding citizen, while King Rice is a convicted
    criminal. :-)
    
    I think the players like him so much because he's an old senile
    grandfather that you can get away with anything that you want and
    he'll protect you in the end, pat you on the haid and tell you what
    a good boy you are.... :-)
    
    Cap
17.1166Lies.RHETT::KNORRACC: Conference of the 90'sMon May 06 1991 19:4010
    For somebody so concerned about others getting their facts straight 
    you sure are having fun spewing falsehoods Cap.
    
    There was never any punishment about him having to run laps.  The only
    publicized punishment was that he had to personally apologize to each
    of his teammates.  Everything else was kept between Dean, Rice, and his
    teammates.  (Not a bad way of handling things, IMO.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1167STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishMon May 06 1991 20:095
    
    Mr. Sensitive....
    
    I'm just having fun, releasing stress before my nuptials this
    weekend....
17.1168ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYACChris: hoops carpetbaggerMon May 06 1991 21:0823
    >he had to personally apologize to each of his teammates.
    
    But not to the poor gal he beat up so bad?  Or how the poor cop he
    beat up?  And what about the poor folk a Carolina?  Course, after 
    the basketball riots maybe the simple act of smashing in the center
    of a Carolina gal's face seems like small potatos to the citzenry in
    comparison.
    
    And why are *you* defending the craven 'Snuff, anyway?  Are you the
    hoops equivalent of a peeping tom?  A freight train jumper, maybe?
    Maybe you're like one a them guys who shows up at 4-alarm blazes and
    stands there with glazed eyes, er, at "attention?"  You have no 
    association with UNC-CH, you.. you... are a_interloper.
    
    I would think that, if you ain't gone to the school in question, then
    maybe if you could truthfully say that you knew the coach's family
    from your neighborhood, that you'd attended some a the team's practices
    for that reason, or knew the coach, then you'd have a legitimate claim
    to the situation, some form of valid association.
    
    Carpetbagger!
    
    Big10 Tom    
17.1169This argument should help your credibility MorT. (Haw haw!!!)RHETT::KNORRACC: Conference of the 90'sTue May 07 1991 12:1220
You're right MrT.  I also think they should start checking diplomas
for admission to college games (if you didn't graduate from one of
the teams playing you're not admitted) and scrambling television
broadcasts to only allow reception into homes with special "Alumni
Descramblers".  (These could be purchased from your alma mater for
a nominal charge, upon proof of graduation.)

Things get murkier when we talk pro teams though.  Since you consider
Dean to be okay cause he's "associated" with the university (even
if he didn't graduate from UNC) I assume folks like John Hendry are safe 
when he pulls for the Pats when they're on the road.  And of course
the players families and relatives are okay.  Maybe even their friends
and neighbors.  Course the 99.999% of the rest of the fans simply *MUST*
be branded carpetbaggers.

:^(


- ACC Chris
    
17.1170get it straightANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYACChris: hoops carpetbaggerTue May 07 1991 13:1510
    re 1
    
    You twist my words.  I'm not talking about simply being a fan, I'm
    talking about being whatever it is you are vis a vis the hapless
    'Snuffy's program.  Take stock a yourself, boy.  Look in the mirror
    and axe yourself this question: "Wouldn't it be better if I showed
    the common sense to root for Duke, whose coach is much better, whose
    program has taken over, and whose roots stem from Bob's frontal lobe?"
    
    Big10 Tom
17.11717221::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Tue May 07 1991 13:4421
    My only feeling about connection with a team is this:  A person can
    root as fanatically as s/he wants for a particular team or coach,
    regardless of whether s/he went to that school, lives in that city,
    whatever.  I do however feel that a person only has the right to refer
    to a team as "we" if that person has a tangible connection with that
    team.  For example, I work for the Patriots, so I refer to them as "we"
    did well (when hell freezes over and we do well).  When my association
    with the Patriots ends (if it ever does) the "we" part ends as well.  
    Despite the fact that I was a Celtics and Red Sox fan before I was a
    Patriots fan (and long before I was an employee), I don't refer to the
    Sox or the Celtics as "we".  I refer to UMass and my high school as "we" 
    but even while Mac was at Syracuse, I never referred to Syracuse as "we",
    because I had no other connection to the place.
    
    And of course the mildest way I refer to Boston College is "pond scum"
    but usually use stronger epithets.
    
    So, Chris, since you mentioned my name, I figured I'd throw in my two
    cents worth.
    
    John           
17.1172Cliff Rozier & Kenny Harris updateRHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportTue May 07 1991 14:0126
    In a desperate attempt to get back to something that anyone could
    possibly care about:
    
    Clifford Rozier is apparently trying his bestest to continue his
    negative influence on college basketball.  Seems the Kaintucks were
    wooing Clifford's services in Louisville (he went with current 'Cat
    player Sean Woods) while the NCAA regulations clearly state that
    a school may entertain a recruit only within a 30-mile radius of the
    school.
    
    Now speaking of Rozier it's become evident that he had no intention of
    putting out during practice.  His HS coach sez he knew this would be a
    problem all along and questioned his decision to go to UNC.  He also
    stated that there will always be problems when a kid thinks he "knows
    more than someone like Dean Smith".  I gotta ask myself what Rozier
    thinks life will be like with Rick Pitino, who, if his practices are
    anything like the rest of his personality, have gotta be *tough*.  Plus
    they've already got the kid Mashburn at PF, no?
    
    One other tidbit.  Seems the rumor mills indicate that Kenny Harris was
    having academic problems at Carolina, which very well may be his
    primary motivation to pick and leave town.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.1173How trivial can you get?SHALOT::MEDVIDcould not hear or see for jealousyTue May 07 1991 14:016
    The University of Kentucky is turning itself in for a recruiting
    violation involving Clifford Rozzier.  Seems Sean Woods took Cliffy to
    Louisville for some entertainment.  NCAA rules say that a recruit may
    be entertained only within a 30 mile radius of campus.
    
    	--dan'l
17.1174Old news, dan'l! ;^)RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportTue May 07 1991 14:031
    
17.1175both clocked in at 11:01. Couldn't a timed it betterSHALOT::MEDVIDcould not hear or see for jealousyTue May 07 1991 14:241
    
17.1176EARRTH::BROOKSHave software, will travel ...Tue May 07 1991 14:3713
    re .1166
    
    You have to remember Chris, that Cap is steeped in the Knight and
    Indiana tradition, hence if the punishment lacks a public humilation or
    verbal/physical assualt component, it isn't a 'real' punishment in his
    eyes .... :-)
    
    re .1167
    
    Cap, do you really want to relieve those, er, um, pressures before the
    wedding ? :-)
    
    (psst ... need a bachlor party ?)
17.1177I think he outta go to UMass - you agree, John Hendry?INTER::NAZZAROPursue, capture, incarcerateWed May 08 1991 17:1011
    Cap - are you sure you know what you're doin'?
    
    Oops, stupid question - it's CAP!!!  Of course he doesn't know
    what he's doing.
    
    Interesting point about Kentucky turning itself in is that Pitino
    said that they will immediately stop recruiting Rozier, while in
    the same breath saying they could really use him.  Maybe Pitino 
    hopes he'll still consider Kaintuck without being recruited.
    
    
17.1178More...SHALOT::MEDVIDcould not hear or see for jealousyWed May 08 1991 17:2010
    ...and Rozier indicated verbally that he would like to attend Kentucky
    (according to the Charlotte Observer).  I think Cliff should go play
    for Lefty at George Mason.  Don't know why that popped into my mind,
    though; just seems like a good match of player and coach.  
    
    Anyone (Chris?) know what other schools are on Rozier's list?  Is he too
    big time for UNCC who just moved to the Metro conference? 
    
    	--dan'l
    
17.1179Florida and Louisville are on his short listRHETT::KNORRMrT: Genius or Fraud?Wed May 08 1991 17:517
    > Is he too big time for UNCC 
    
    If you asked Cliffy he'd probably tell you he's too big time for the 
    Lakers.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1180his coach says soHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughThu May 09 1991 11:0015
Notice how Rozier was all-stud going into Chapel Hill and how the
faithful are bad mouthing him now? The guy figures out that he and Dean's
system don't mesh and suddenly he's the biggest stiff to ever wear a baby
blue jock. Well if he's such a_all-world jerk, why'd Dean sign him? 

And, of course, there had to something wrong with Kenny Harris, too. It
wasn't just that he did what Dean asked and he got no reward cause Dean
fell back on his seniors. No! He's got to have bad grades.

Well on a much more pleasant note, Chuck Nevitt was signed by the Miami
Tropics of the USBL. This guy's played for the championship with the
Pistons and won a ring with the Lakers. What else does he have to prove?
Maybe he really likes to practice. 

TTom
17.1181Make no mistake, losing Rozier is a blow.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu May 09 1991 15:0344
> Notice how Rozier was all-stud going into Chapel Hill and how the
> faithful are bad mouthing him now? 

Correct, he was "all-stud" heading to UNC-CH.  Unfortunately it appears
he read all his press clippings, and then some.


> The guy figures out that he and Dean's system don't mesh and suddenly he's 
> the biggest stiff to ever wear a baby blue jock. 

Well when a kid comes along and thinks he knows more than Dean ('I am
not a practice player.  Nuf said.') then I'm not sure what other conclusion 
can be drawn.  All of your upper echelon coaches are going to frown on
Clifford's "attitude".  Whadaya think Fight (tm) would do with a player
who wouldn't practice?!!  Oooo, that'd be ugly ...  Poor Cliffy'd
probably be justified in filing a police battery charge, to say nothing
of the verbal humiliations he'd suffer.  Dean does things more civily
of course.  Simply pack your bags and head outa Dodge City.


> Well if he's such a_all-world jerk, why'd Dean sign him? 

The obvious answer is 'He didn't know.'.


> And, of course, there had to something wrong with Kenny Harris, too. It
> wasn't just that he did what Dean asked and he got no reward cause Dean
> fell back on his seniors. No! He's got to have bad grades.

Not saying he HAD bad grades.  Just repeating the rumors that
indicate he MAY have bad grades.

The idea that Kenny deserved to play just cause he did what Dean asked
is a false one though.  Scott Cherry (i.e. the last guy on the bench)
does what he asks too.  Dean plays his best players and, unfortunately
for Kenny, he wasn't one of 'em.  No way was he better than Rice, and
Phelps just plain beat him out for the backup spot.  The unfortunate
part is that next year he would've started seeing some fruit for his
labors, which is why the bad grades theory is so plausible.  (Based on
Kenny's so-so rankings out of HS, backup PG for the 2nd best program in
the country ain't too shabby.)


- ACC Chris
17.1182The Smith WaySHALOT::MEDVIDcould not hear or see for jealousyThu May 09 1991 15:1011
>Dean does things more civily
>of course.  Simply pack your bags and head outa Dodge City.
    
    There's Dean doing what is best for the student-athlete again.  "Son,
    you've got some problems so here, let me hold this door open for you. 
    Oh, and don't forget that bag of troubles you're carrying around. 
    Don't want to leave that behind to infect any of my up and coming
    seniors.  Thanks.  See ya later, boy.  When they ask you, tell them I
    cared."
    
    	--dan'l
17.1183Tough love on one may be necessary for the good of the teamRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu May 09 1991 15:305
    Good point about infecting others dan'l.  Me_thinks Dean learned the
    hard way with JR Reid.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1184ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu May 09 1991 19:2821
    >Whadaya think Fight (tm) would do with a player who wouldn't
    >practice?!!  Oooo, that' be ugly ... Cliffy'd probably end up
    >(filing) a police battery charge... not to mention the verbal
    >abuse he'd suffer.
    
    Yawn.  The usual anti-Bob bilge, i.e., hopeful fantasy and 
    supposition, but no actual reality-based information.  In fack,
    Bob *did* have a player who wouldn't practice, and recently. 
    His name's Rickey Calloway, and his work habits were so bad that
    he was having run-ins with the other players about his laziness.
    Nobody got yelled at (and apparently yelling at a player is a felony
    crime in your left-wing pinko communist politically correct heart,
    'Caught)... the coaches sat down with him, heard Rickey's side a the
    story (that he didn't need to practice in order to perform) and he
    was assisted in transferring to Kansas.  
    
    To a main the players were happy to see him go, although it hurt the
    team's talent level.  So much for your police blotter approach, 'Crisp.
    
    Big10 Tom
    
17.1185more squalid revelations...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu May 09 1991 19:5526
Given the particular nature of the analytical work I do in here, 
I, like a cop, soldier, politician, or spy, aim sometimes forced to
rub elbows with unsavory back door men who are prone to underhanded 
dealings.    

Per corporate policy and my strict standards a ethics I cain't/
won't reveal the writer's name... but I think all a you cain guess
who wrote this.  Ugh.


>I'll offer a deal though.  No more references to non-alumnus status
>on your end and, in exchange, I'll spare you the public humiliation
>of becoming_a convicted plagerizer. [sic]
>
>Deal?

No, no deal.  I've never been skeert a public humiliation, and anyway
my "accuser" recently logged in to admit it was a veiled compliment
a my highly original work.  Your trumped up charges only make me sneer
in contempt, in the best Alonzo Mourning style, at your charade, the
confidence game you played that made all a us Antis feel, well, violated,
even raped.

MrT

             
17.1186squalid, indeedHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughThu May 09 1991 20:229
Cap,

Set Chris straight about what battery is ;-)

>... I've never been skeert a public humiliation, ...

Nah, I'll just let that stand...

TTom
17.1187Nice Spin Control, MrT.RHETT::KNORRMrT: Convicted ForgererFri May 10 1991 12:2824
> the coaches sat down with him, heard Rickey's side a the
> story (that he didn't need to practice in order to perform) and he
> was assisted in transferring to Kansas.  

And people accuse *me* of spewing propaganda?!  Read 'Season On The
Brink', MorT, for a full and complete understanding of how Bob deals
with players who aren't performing to his satisfaction.  In case you
missed it in the book stores I'll be glad to send ya_a copy.


> No, no deal.  I've never been skeert a public humiliation, and anyway
> my "accuser" recently logged in to admit it was a veiled compliment
> a my highly original work.  

I don't know what you're talking about.  And besides, you're already
a convicted forgerer, and we've already got a confession on file
that you plagiarized!  (See note #149.12 for details.)  I will admit to
paying compliments to your work though, but I'd probably have done the
same thing if you'd receited some unfamiliar work of Shakespeare
or Emily Dickinson.


- ACC Chris
    
17.1188ACC Update on Pan-Am TrialsRHETT::KNORRMrT: Convicted ForgererFri May 10 1991 12:3625
    The team has been cut down to 17 players (from an original 66).
    
    The following ACC players survived the cut (Complete List):
    
    o Tom Gulgiotta
    o Eric Montross
    o Walt Williams
    o Christian Laettner
    o Thomas Hill
    o Grant Hill
    
    The following ACC players were cut (Partial List):
    
    o Hubert Davis
    o George Lynch
    
    I know Bryant Stith decided not to try out.  I don't have a complete
    list of the 11 other players to survive the cut, nor do I know of
    the other ACC players who didn't make it.
    
    Practice resumes for the 17 survivors in July I believe.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.1189who?ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri May 10 1991 15:4814
    >"MrT: Convicted Forgerer"
    
    Make that read "MrT: Innocent College Prankster" and I'm OK you're
    OK.  
    
    Speaking a fraudulent behavior, a quiz: The Hendry Principle was 
    laid out in here last week, whereby a fan must refrain from referring
    to the object a his college team loyalty in terms of "we" and "us"
    unless he/she attended that institution.  Who in here has made a 
    practice of using such possessive inclusive terminology despite having
    absolutely no association with the program to which he has attached
    himself (like a_ambitious but misleading mollusk)?
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1190Still ain't received the FAX of your IU degree, BTW.RHETT::KNORRMrT: Convicted ForgererFri May 10 1991 16:5321
> Make that read "MrT: Innocent College Prankster" and I'm OK you're
> OK.  

One persons "Innocent College Prankster" is anothers convicted felon.
At least we both agree that you're GUILTY though.

    
> Speaking a fraudulent behavior, a quiz: The Hendry Principle was 
> laid out in here last week, whereby a fan must refrain from referring
> to the object a his college team loyalty in terms of "we" and "us"
> unless he/she attended that institution.  

The Hendry "Principle" was no such thing.  Just an opinion offered by
an employee and fan.  Besides, with all the good work I've done for
Dean and UNC in here I wouldn't be surprised if they offered me_a
honorary diploma ('Communications' would be appropriate, I think)
at some point down the road.


- ACC Chris
    
17.1191Stop the decline in educational standards! Just say no, Chris!NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri May 10 1991 17:1813
> Besides, with all the good work I've done for
> Dean and UNC in here I wouldn't be surprised if they offered me_a
> honorary diploma ('Communications' would be appropriate, I think)
> at some point down the road.
    
    Oh no!  Now Chris is begging for one a them fraudulent, now notorious, 
    UNC 'Communications' degrees, first popularized by Lawrence Taylor of
    self-admitted "copy-neighbor's-paper-in-1000-head-lecture-hall" 
    fame...
    
    glenn
      
17.1192"We" is digitalSHALOT::MEDVIDcould not hear or see for jealousyFri May 10 1991 17:249
    T, John Hendry didn't say "unless you attended the school."  What I
    remember him saying is that he didn't like it when people referred to a
    team as "we" unless they work for that team.
    
    Chris, getting that degree for the propoganda you spew would make
    you...well, let's put it this way: if it looks like, smells like, talks
    like, walks like...BOOM, right between the eys.
    
    	--dan'l
17.1193FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Mon May 13 1991 11:394
    I did say either attended the school or work for the team.  Or if I
    didn't, I meant to.
    
    John
17.1194looked like, walked like, and quacked like a ...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon May 13 1991 19:4424
    True 'nuff.  But the horrifying fack remains that we were misled by
    ACC 'Caught. He has no relationship with the Star Hell prorgram in
    any way shape or form, and yet he duped all a us with his daily and
    fraudulent abuse a the clearly misleading terms "us," "we," "ours,"
    etc. ad nauseating.
    
    He cheepened the Great Debate, no small feat if ya think about it.
    
    ACC Chris [sic] has done wrong.  Real, hurtful wrong.  And he should
    make a clean breast a it by admitting this publicly, apologizing, and
    pledging to NEVER AGAIN misrepresent himself in this awful way.  Then
    and only then cain we, Antis and confused alike, accept him back into
    the fold.
    
    Given his prior conviction as criminally insane, I suppose he could
    make a case that his "I'm a Star Hell" fantasy wheeled outta control
    and took 'holt a him, but even this paltry straw-grasping defense in 
    itself would be a damning confession a a sort...
    
    A Very Disappointed,
    Big10 Tom 
    
    
    
17.1195RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOBruins Choke AGAIN!!!Tue May 14 1991 14:3614
    While in Atlanta, I read a story about the ACC, and preferential
    admissions policies for hoopsters and footballers.
    
    Of course, Clemson was the worst.
    
    Duke, Virginia had the least of the preferential admissions.  NC State
    was, I believe, the only other school with over 50% of hoopsters and
    footballers not receiving preferential admission.
    
    The Tarhells (TM) were under the 50% mark.
    
    ANd a NICE story on Bob Knight on ESPN last night...;-))
    
    JD
17.1196Bob... you make my heart throbANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue May 14 1991 15:414
    A nice story on Bob?  What was it?  What'd they say about my main
    main?!
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1197Must be the Clemson griddersSHALOT::HUNTIf Do Then Damned Else DamnedTue May 14 1991 15:4819
 I read the same stories and, if I recall correctly, both Duke and
 Virginia have explicit non-preferential treatment policies.    That
 is, neither school bends its academic admissions standards for
 athletes.
 
 The 7 other schools in the ACC (including Florida State) all permit
 some sort of special admissions status for athletes.  And JD is
 right, Clemson had the highest %age of athletes admitted below the
 school standards.   Something like 83% or close to it.
 
 But, to be fair, you have to give credit where it's due ... last
 Saturday, four of the five seniors on the Clemson basketball team got
 their degrees.  This includes Dale Davis, a probable NBA first-round
 pick, who majored in business.   The fifth senior, Colby Brown,
 didn't get his degree but he's on track for a December 1991
 graduation.  Instead, he got a 4.0 this past semester.    Nice work,
 Paws.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1198RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOBruins Choke AGAIN!!!Tue May 14 1991 16:057
    Knight was inducted into the Hall of Fame, and they had an article
    about his loyalty to his players and to academics.  It was very good. 
    And it wasn't just a gloss over, they showed the chair incident and him
    yelling, etc., but it was generally a very nice, unbiased, accurate
    picture of the General.
    
    JD
17.1199ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue May 14 1991 20:2448
    I don't consider the chair incident a negative at all.  So he 
    protested poor officiating by tossing a chair onto the court.
    So what?  Yet it's replayed on national TV thousdands a times
    annually.  Compare that to Marquette coach Bob Dukiet, who in
    1987 hit a ref across the arm with a rolled-up program, got a 
    T, then slapped him in the face with it, got a 2nd T and remained
    in the game.  Or how about the time Moorehaid State coach Bill 
    Harrell threw a chair into the stands hitting the fans with it,
    and, after a fan yelled "you cain't throw Oral Roberts' chairs 
    into the stands!," Harrell threw another chair at that fan, hitting
    him.  Or the time Dale Brown got ejected for giving a_official the
    finger not once but twice.   And let's not forget the time "coach"
    John Stompshim (the nation's educational leader) had to be restrained
    by assistant coaches from attacking little Rick Pitino on the sideline
    in Providence.  And would it be too much to mention Norm Stewart, after
    a victory at Nebraska, grabbing a mike and addressing the Big Red
    student section and telling them what a bunch of losers Dee and his 
    players were, causing a 200 person rumble; or the time ACC legend 
    (and like Dick Nixon, Duke alum) Lefty Dreisell obstructed justice 
    by instructing players and students involved with Bias' fatal cocaine
    party to lie to the police about the drug part?
    
    And then there's that famous scumbag program, UCLA under John 
    Wooden, who knowingly tolerated the infamous car dealer Sam Gilbert
    (who once was indicted for his role in a_international drug smuggling
    ring), once described by Jerry Tarkanian as "the most important stone
    in Wooden's famous 'Pyramid of Success'," by providing UCLAn players
    with new cars and cash.
    
    So, I take the chair throwing incident as a sad-sack admission by the
    press that they don't have much on Bob except that he's a feiry 
    personality who yells at his players (as all coaches do) and that he
    is "controversial" only in the cleanest sense in comparison to scumbag
    cheats and miscreants like Wooden and many others.  I take the film
    of his tossed chair as a_implicit admission that what's good press is
    much ado about nothing, that Bob is accorded a higher standard of
    reporting cuz he's at the top of his profession with no peer.
    
    Trouble with Bob is that, as with his coaching, he's just *better* at
    yelling and protesting than his colleagues, something he exacerbates
    by his admirable but ill-advised baiting a sports journalists [sic]
    which guarantees him negative press where the choke-a-holic 'Snuffy
    Smif cain garner accolades even though his players rumble with the
    police in runways.
    
    My Bob, I think I'll keep him, thank you.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1200RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWelcome to the Queen City!Tue May 14 1991 21:227
    re-1,
    	All I got out that reply wuz that Bob's not the only coach to F**K
    up!
    
    	Seems there all a little crazy!
    
    B.A.
17.1201Rozier and McCaffrey updateRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 15 1991 12:3018
    Couple of big ACC notes:
    
    1. Clifford Rozier is in the news yet again!  This time he's violated
       NCAA rules while on a visit to Louisville.  Seems he was being
       interviewed on TV while in the presence of one of Denny Crum's
       assistants, a clear violation of an NCAA rule that states "A
       member institution shall not publicize [or arrange for publicity
       of] a prospect's visit."
    
       So Clifford won't be going to Kentucky or Louisville, in all
       likelihood.  This thing is turning into a war of attrition!
    
    2. Billy McCaffrey will transfer to Vanderbilt because he wants a 
       part of Dean's System, which he feels will increase his points
       and assists and therefore boost his pro marketability.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1202Let's not forget "The Fan","The Cop","The Russians","The Book","The Interview"RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 15 1991 12:3616
    re: .1199
    
    How's this for iron-trap Thypocrisy (tm):
    
    1. Start off with the thesis that you "don't consider the chair
       incident a negative at all.".
    
    2. Offer the "proof" by pointing out all the other coaches who 
       have been involved in less-than honorable incidents.
    
    Interesting reading MrT, but forgive us if we're not all gushing
    over to congratulate Bob for being just as crummy as the rest of
    a motley crew.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1203Bet Cliffy ends up a GatorSHALOT::MEDVIDwhen our worlds they fall apartWed May 15 1991 13:0912
    Amazing how McCaffrey's comment, "It was the best situation for me
    academically and athletically" gets translated to this:
       
>       Billy McCaffrey will transfer to Vanderbilt because he wants a 
>       part of Dean's System, which he feels will increase his points
>       and assists and therefore boost his pro marketability.
    
    Well, Chris, atleast you're consistent.  8-)
    
    	--dan'l
    
    
17.1204CAM::WAYJose, did you diddle Madonna?Wed May 15 1991 13:2311
Bob Knight is GOD(tm).

Snuffy Smif is a charlatan.



(Repeat as needed until Carolina Blew fades from the edges of your
peripheral vision).

Hope this helps,
'Saw
17.1205What happens if Rozier clears waivers?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 15 1991 14:2832
17.1206Dean > Bob28964::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 15 1991 14:331
    
17.1207Son, don't shoot too much unless you're gonna go 5 fer 22...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed May 15 1991 14:459
            
    Just a guess, but I'll go out on a limb and say that McCaffrey's points
    and assists would go up in a Duke-to-Vanderbilt transfer if ol' Dean
    himself was down there squashing him under his thumb.  The "Dean 
    System" is going to make him a pro but Coach K's wouldn't?  Yeah, 
    right...
    
    glenn
    
17.12081 > 3 ??AXIS::ROBICHAUDWed May 15 1991 14:591
    
17.1209Dean doesn't squash; he prunesRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 15 1991 15:0617
    Poor analysis Glenn.  Dean's System doesn't discourage shots from being
    taken.  That kind of approach is more the style of slow-down coaches
    like Massamino, Pete Carril, etc.  Carolina plays uptempo basketball.  
    
    What Dean doesn't allow is poor shot selection.  He wants good
    shots *every* time down the floor.  This is why Carolina always has a
    high ratio of assists and why they always have a very high FG
    percentage.
    
    The 5 fer 22 crack means nothing, because no System can guarantee
    players will make shots.  If you look at the game tape of the Kansas
    game you'll find almost all of the shots Fox took would be considered
    good percentage shots.  They just didn't go in very often,
    unfortunately.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1210Troubling situationRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 15 1991 15:2019
    Rumors indicate that Dean might give Henrik Rodl a shot at backup PG
    next year.  He's incredibly slow but has size and savy to go with his
    excellent passing ability.  He's also a very good defensive player.
    
    I predict this will be an experiment doomed to failure.  No way will he
    be able to stay with the quick ACC PG's.  But hey, consider the
    alternatives.  Hubert Davis is a terrible ball-handler.  Donald
    Williams hasn't played a nano-second of college ball, and he's a
    shooter not a ball-handler.  Ditto for Larry Davis, who hasn't even
    passed his SAT's yet.
    
    Combine this with the fact that Derrick Phelps hasn't fully recovered
    from his knee injury and I'm starting to need valium and several
    glasses of beer to fall asleep at night.
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1211CAM::WAYJose, did you diddle Madonna?Wed May 15 1991 16:343
/Don --

1 > 3 if you use that new math they teach a UNC.....
17.1212Dean > BobRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 15 1991 16:5913
    > 1 > 3 if you use that new math they teach a UNC.....
    
    Before MrT comes in and starts whinin' and cryin' about how I've
    disillusioned the masses, let me state unequivacably that I never
    attended a math class (or any other class for that matter) at UNC.
    
    I did, however, take many math classes within the state of North
    Carolina and can assure you I don't think 1 is greater than 3.
    To use that as proof against Dean > Bob is a horrible simplicty and is
    one not even MrT will accept.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1213SHALOT::MEDVIDwhen our worlds they fall apartWed May 15 1991 17:254
    OK, then let's try this:
    
    	90+ substitutions > winning
    
17.1214ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed May 15 1991 17:3835
    >To use that as a proof against Dean > Bob is a horrible simplicity
    
    So then, you admit that it isn't true (otherwise you woulda said 
    "... 1 > 3 is a horrible simplism" but you didn't).
    
    >Let's not forge "The Fan"
    
    The LSU fan accosted Bob, slopped beer all over him chanting and poking
    at him saying "Tiger Bait! Tiger Bait!" and getting slam dunked into
    a rubber garbage can elicited applause from the bar crowd, and from me).
    
    >"The Cop"
    
    The cop accosted Bob in front of about 50 people, all of whom confirmed
    that Bob was defending himself from being shoved when he knocked him
    cold.
    
    >"The Russians"
    
    Nothing happened with the Russians.  The AAU, who later sent a letter
    of apology for failure to enforce the rules equably, hired the referee
    who upon calling a third Technical Foul on Bob forced the Hoosiers to
    leave the floor... after the Russians did.  All that happened was that
    Bob got ejected from a game and left like a main (which is more than
    cain be said for another coach who was ejected but left dishonorably).
    
    >"The Book"
    
    Yeah, The Book that proved beyond any reasonable shadow of a doubt that
    Bob yells at his players, benches nonperformers, and routinely throws
    players outta practice.  Big deal.
    
    Yawn.
    
    MrT
17.1215Another myth dispelledRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 15 1991 17:4021
    > 90+ substitutions > winning
    
    Sigh.  The only reason Dean substituted so much in the Kansas game was
    because we (oops, I used that word again!) were behind the last five 
    (5) minutes of the game and were fully into our catch-up game, which
    calls for offensive and defensive substitutions.
    
    It is true though that Dean substituted alot more than usual with this
    team, for a couple reasons:
    
    1. To counteract our (relatively) mediocre talent level with
       our extraordinarily long bench
    
    2. To keep people happy and motivated
    
    The tradeoff was that we were often lacking in offensive and defensive
    continuity, but by season-end this problem was mostly licked thanks to
    more clearly defined roles.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1216why you weasly little Gordon College alum...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed May 15 1991 17:4316
    >forgive us if we'er not all gushing over to congratulate Bob for
    >being just as crummy as the rest of them.
    
    Bob has never struck a referee in the face, pelted fans with chairs,
    fomented a basketball fan riot, attacked another coach, made obscene 
    gestures in public, allowed drug dealing car salesman to buy him 
    players, or directed students to obstruct justice in a drug death.
    
    Each of these things are much worse than tossing a chair onto the court
    and not hitting anybody, yet *that* is replayed thousands of times while 
    the others are forgotten (or covered up).  
    
    It's just that Bob is greater than all the rest, and makes for better
    copy.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1217RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOThe sea lions are back...Wed May 15 1991 17:436
    Chris
    
    Dean was substituting like a mad man all game long.  He destroyed the
    teams rythem over and over again (wif some help from Brickmaster Rick!)
    
    JD
17.1218Simple: The world is out to get poor Bob. (boo hoo!)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 15 1991 17:5016
    re: .1216
    
    I'll concede that throwing a chair across the floor isn't as serious as
    some of the other issues you mention.  It's also less serious than
    rape, murder, extortion, battery, and kidnapping.  Big deal.  It's
    still an embarassment.
    
    All your canned BobExcuses are nice, but one question: Why do these
    things keep happening to *him*??  Why is the whole world out to pick on
    poor Bob??  Why is it other coaches are able to avoid punching fans,
    humiliating players, punching cops, and throwing chairs?!
    
    Inquiring minds and all that,
    
    
    - ACC (but non-UNC alum) Chris
17.1219Needed more practice reporting to the scorer's table?SHALOT::MEDVIDwhen our worlds they fall apartWed May 15 1991 17:5113
    This problem was MOSTLY licked?  What does that say about a coach who
    employs a strategy that is MOSTLY licked in one of the biggest games of
    his career?  
    
    So now we have Dean cough up the ACC regular season (and a host of
    other would-be accomplishments that have been listed in previous notes)
    because his team needed more work on the man-to-man even at that late
    stage of the season.  Now we have Dean using an offensive/defensive
    strategy that he has MOSTLY licked by March 30.
    
    Or did you mean to type MOISTLY instead?
    
    	--dan'l
17.1220SubstitutionsRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 15 1991 17:5412
    Actually JD, Dean's late-game substituting worked very well indeed. 
    His defensive substitutions were generating turnovers and missed free
    throws in bunches.  Unfortunately we weren't converting on our end.
    
    I'll admit that the first half of just about every Carolina game this
    year was lacking in continuity.  Dean substituted more than necessary,
    undoubtedly with an eye toward wearing down the opponent.  Trouble is
    against Kansas we were forced to play catch-up.  If the game would've
    been close you would have seen far less substituting in the 2nd half. 
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1221NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed May 15 1991 17:5521
    
    > What Dean doesn't allow is poor shot selection.  He wants good
    > shots *every* time down the floor.  This is why Carolina always has a
    > high ratio of assists and why they always have a very high FG
    > percentage.
    
    He doesn't or he didn't?  Anybody else who allows his team to run up
    and down the court firing up outside shots that continue to flagrantly 
    miss the mark, like I saw in that Kansas game, is held responsible for 
    neglectful coaching.  With Dean, you say it was just a simple case of 
    a team not shooting well, no relection on the coach whatsoever.
    
    That entire game was probably the sloppiest I saw in the entire NCAA
    tourney.  I thought I was watching a mid-season Nuggets-Clippers NBA
    game aired by mistake.  Pitting Smith against protege Williams, if 
    that game was supposed to be a showcase for the "Dean System", we can
    only hope it doesn't ever happen again, and offer our prayers tonight
    for that poor McCafferty kid...
    
    glenn
      
17.1222The System was 9-2, which ain't too shabbyRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 15 1991 18:009
    That the Kansas-UNC game was ugly is not surprising, given the
    identical System employed by both coaches.  
    
    The System faired quite nicely in the tourney though, with Kansas
    rolling over *everybody* in their path and UNC doing the same, except
    for the Temple game.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1223NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed May 15 1991 18:1013
                                                             
    > The System faired quite nicely in the tourney though, with Kansas
    > rolling over *everybody* in their path and UNC doing the same, except
    > for the Temple game.
    
    True, Kansas did knock off some high seeds...
    
    Hey, Chris, did I hear you say that Dean's got a Prop 48 recruit now?
    Not that I have a problem with him individually on this, but I
    thought you said Dean had his own rule regarding Prop 48s...
    
    glenn
    
17.1224Prop 48 <> ACC (or B10 for that matter)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 15 1991 18:149
    The ACC doesn't admit Prop 48's, glenn.  Dean gets no credit for this.
    
    *If* Larry Davis fails to reach 700 on his SAT's he won't be going to 
    Carolina.  It's possible he could go to prep school for a year and then
    retake the exam (similar to what Cornell Parker did at UVa) but I doubt
    we'll still be interested then.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1225A Call To SmarmsANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed May 15 1991 20:4336
    >but I doubt we'll still be interested then.
    
    And who would this "we" be?  Are you saying that the Gordon College
    Gordos will pass on Davis cuz he didn't meet the Star Hells tough
    standards?  
    
    *** REQUEST FOR INFORMATION ***
    
    NOTICE: Much confusion and emotional trauma has been wreaked by
    so-called ACC Chris' bald-faced poseur act as a Faux Fan, and as a
    Faux Star Hell Main, whereby he has had and continues to have us
    objective noters talking to a persona-o-pretense.  
    
    Please post your input, feedback, and emotions inflicted on your psyche
    by the clutching the claws a this crooked operator by answering these 
    questions:
    
    1.  Do you feel violated, even raped, by this impostor's brazen act?
    
    2.  How has this fraud hurt you personally, as a_analyst and a decent
        truthful forthright human being?
    
    3.  Does his fraud somehow cheapen your own status as a genuine almunus
        who has actually attended your school, sat in classes with athletes,  
        and lived and died with your beloved program?
    
    4.  Do you find yourself scrubbing yourself raw in the shower trying to
        scrub away the dirty feeling left on you after conversing with this
        Faux Fan (Faux Star Hell Main)?
    
    5.  What is to be done?  How cain we inject a_honest perspective back
        onto Star Hell matters so badly tarnished by this Faux Fan's fakery?
    
    6.  First a rigged contest and now this.  What's next?
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1226???RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWelcome to the Queen City!Wed May 15 1991 21:266
    Chris,
    
    	I bet you were happy to hear that USC fired George Felton
    yesterday! No doubt that will give UNC a early win this year...:*)
    
    B.A.
17.1227Bobby to USC RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWelcome to the Queen City!Thu May 16 1991 01:239
    well,
    
    	Maybe not....I think that USC will get Bobby Cremins to join
    their staff..he's an alum...besides, USC has the funds to pay him what
    he wants.
    
    First predictions IMHO
    
    B.A.
17.1228???MPGS::BURGESSThu May 16 1991 10:594
    
    Why was Felton fired??
    
    - Ken -
17.1229FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu May 16 1991 11:2514
    The ACC went 1 for 2 yesterday in lacrosse action:
    
    Towson State 14	Virginia 13	(my condolences, Bob Hunt)
    Maryland 13		Rutgers 7
    Syracuse 28		Michigan State 7
    Loyola 20		Massachusetts 9 (barf)
    
    Sunday:  Maryland at Brown and Towson State at Virginia, the winners
    make up one semifinal to be played at Syracuse on May 25
    
    The other matchups are Loyola at North Carolina and Syracuse at Johns
    Hopkins, the winners will be in the other semifinal.
    
    John
17.1230Cremins to USC? No way, BA. RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu May 16 1991 11:5610
    The outcry has been, er, underwhelming, MrT.  Haw haw haw!!!!
    
    Go Heels!  Hope "our" lacrosse team can beat Loyola.  "We'll" sure
    be up for the game, knowing these guys only snuck by UMass.  Sure am
    proud of "our" Number 1 lacrosse ranking.  Hope "we" win another Title.
    
    Heh heh!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1231Good ole amateur athletics in action (that's_a joke)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu May 16 1991 12:0526
    > Why was Felton fired??
    
    "[Athletics Director] King Dixon said he made the decision to fire
    Felton after an "extensive and consuming" review of the basketball
    program that began in January."
    
    Clear as mud, eh?  USC went 20-13 last year, but faded badly down the
    stretch.  [The swoon started around January I'm sure. :^(]  There were
    rumors that he (Felton) was involved in heavy drinking, but Dixon
    confirmed this was NOT an issue and that none of the rumors could be
    confirmed.
    
    The real reason he got fired?  Poor academic results, of course!
    (Ha ha ha ha haw haw haw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111)
    
    No, actually he got fired cause (hold your breath now) he didn't win
    enough, and wasn't elevating the USC program to the money-earning
    levels that the AD felt was reachable.  (Pretty big ego on his part,
    IMO.)  The nail in the coffin came during the spring signing period
    when USC wiffed on almost all of the studs they were trying to bring
    in.  (The only kid they got I believe was Carrol, who they've been
    recruiting for ages and was a virtual lock.  Supposedly even he began
    to fade when the Felton-firing rumors got hot.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1232FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu May 16 1991 12:326
    I hardly call 20-9 "snuck by", Chris.  Loyola was up 4-2 after 1
    quarter and 12-5 at the half.  We gave up 8 goals in the second quarter
    and 6 in the fourth quarter.  We got pasted, none of this "excellent
    loss" crap from me.
    
    John
17.1233Pretty clever of you, Chris!!!WORDY::NAZZAROPursue, capture, incarcerateThu May 16 1991 12:404
    John Hendry and I concur that ACC_Chris has already begun the spin
    control in case the Heels lose to Loyola.
    
    NAZZ
17.1234Main! Can't even be a sportsman anymore :^( (sniff)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu May 16 1991 13:294
    I was just tryin' to be nice guys, honest!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1235AXIS::ROBICHAUDThu May 16 1991 16:107
    RE: .1225
    
    	You're right MrT.  After all these discussions with who I thought
    was a true heel (well maybe he is!) I feel like I've been invited
    to the Kennedy's for a drink!
    
    				/Don
17.1236ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYStars: Miracle on 24th AvenueThu May 16 1991 16:139
    I see your point, Don.  I feel like a foxy yuppette who goes out with
    a self-proclaimed millionaire, gives it up, and upon running a Dun &
    Bradstreet on the guy the next day discovers that the Mercedes was a 
    rental and the guy's actually a clothing salesmain who borrowed a 
    Giorgio Armani pinstripe for the date!
    
    It's been a cheapening experience for all a us ('cept him, of course)!
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1237Scrubbing to clean my soul!!RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOThe sea lions are back...Thu May 16 1991 16:1571
I'm shocked...
    
    
    
================================================================================
Note 17.1225                Atlantic Coast Conference               1225 of 1234
ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSY "Plato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnight" 36 lines  15-MAY-1991 17:43
                             -< A Call To Smarms >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    *** REQUEST FOR INFORMATION ***
    
    NOTICE: Much confusion and emotional trauma has been wreaked by
    so-called ACC Chris' bald-faced poseur act as a Faux Fan, and as a
    Faux Star Hell Main, whereby he has had and continues to have us
    objective noters talking to a persona-o-pretense.  
    
    Please post your input, feedback, and emotions inflicted on your psyche
    by the clutching the claws a this crooked operator by answering these 
    questions:
    
    1.  Do you feel violated, even raped, by this impostor's brazen act?
    
	Sometimes I fergit that AccCrisp has simply only met Coach
	Underachiever once - and even then he poked around trying to 
	read the man's unopened mail.  You'd a_thunk he had his TarHell
	degree, but it is clear that he doesn't.  I fear for him, and 
	cower away from him - is he taking on multiple personalities?
	Does he have a fatal attraction to Dean?  I feel ashamed due
	to this sham!

	
    2.  How has this fraud hurt you personally, as a_analyst and a decent
        truthful forthright human being?
    

	I know longer know what to believe.  THis 'we' stuff scares me.
	How can one have a honest hoops conversation with one that is
	a Deanie (TM) 

    3.  Does his fraud somehow cheapen your own status as a genuine almunus
        who has actually attended your school, sat in classes with athletes,  
        and lived and died with your beloved program?

	You betcha.  How'd ya think I felt after 'his' TarHells (TM) 
	beat the bejesus out of my alma mater in Round 1!  I wanted to
	Congrats him alum - to - alum, only to find out the aweful 
	troof (tm)!!
    
    4.  Do you find yourself scrubbing yourself raw in the shower trying to
        scrub away the dirty feeling left on you after conversing with this
        Faux Fan (Faux Star Hell Main)?
    
	Yep, and I wake at night, yelling "how much time is left..."

    5.  What is to be done?  How cain we inject a_honest perspective back
        onto Star Hell matters so badly tarnished by this Faux Fan's fakery?

	Acknowledge him as a normal fan of the tarhells (tm) - A Deanie
	weanie - but never a tarhell (TM)
    
    6.  First a rigged contest and now this.  What's next?
    

	God only knows.  I supose he'll try to peddle the 
	thought-control Carolina Blue mag to the young and helpless!


    Big10 Tom

	NAC JD
17.1238ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYStars: Miracle on 24th AvenueThu May 16 1991 16:1712
    >I feel like I've been invited to the Kennedy's for a drink!
    
    Maybe our Faux Star Heel was the heel who recently painted this
    warning message on that thick wooden door to the beach at the
    Kennedy Palm Beach compound:
    
    		"Warning!  Trespassers will be violated!"
    
    ACC Faux, which commandment says "thou shalt not trespass" (thy
    neighbor's heart)?
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1239Answers to the quiz in .1225SHALOT::MEDVIDwhen our worlds they fall apartThu May 16 1991 16:2836
>    1.  Do you feel violated, even raped, by this impostor's brazen act?
    
    So roughly violated that I went to the store to purchase some 
    Johnson & Johnson medicated wipes, but this being North Carolina all I
    could find were "Go Heels" terricloth towels.  Worked just the same.
    
>    2.  How has this fraud hurt you personally, as a_analyst and a decent
>        truthful forthright human being?
    
    What fraud?  You mean someone was paying attention to what he was
    writing?
    
>    3.  Does his fraud somehow cheapen your own status as a genuine almunus
>        who has actually attended your school, sat in classes with athletes,  
>        and lived and died with your beloved program?
    
    Oh, that fraud!  Yeah, that burns my parchment.  Lord knows my
    transcript from Ohio U is cheapened enough having classes like
    "Introduction to Leisure" and "Oceanography (in Ohio?)" on it.
    
>    4.  Do you find yourself scrubbing yourself raw in the shower trying to
>        scrub away the dirty feeling left on you after conversing with this
>        Faux Fan (Faux Star Hell Main)?
    
    Nah, but I bet Pepper had to get some Extra-Stength Draino.
    
>    5.  What is to be done?  How cain we inject a_honest perspective back
>        onto Star Hell matters so badly tarnished by this Faux Fan's fakery?
    
    See answer, question 2.
    
>    6.  First a rigged contest and now this.  What's next?
    
    "What's next?" Isn't that what JR usually asks after he sets a pick?
    
    	--dan'l
17.1240Foul. FOUL!!!!!!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu May 16 1991 16:4417
    Folks, I have it on *very* good authority that MrT is running a witch
    hunt, and I'm the huntee.  Of course this amounts to nothing more than
    character assassination, so I'm urging each and every one of you to
    avoid the urge to carry out your jealous hatred of Carolina on poor ACC
    Chris, especially when taken in context with the tremendous "thigh
    shuddering" pleasure this would no doubt give this reckless, crazed,
    and downright mean human being.
    
    I'm not asking for pro-Carolina notes or nothin' [we've all had
    *enough* fun with that, eh?  wink,wink, nudge,nudge ;^) ;^)].
    Just some rebuttals to the thoroughly outrageous charges MrT has
    attempted to solicit via "below_the_belt" (personal mail) means.
    
    Sincere thanks,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1241J'accuse ACC Faux!AXIS::ROBICHAUDThu May 16 1991 17:271
    
17.1242The main who would be someone else: ACC FauxANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYStars: Miracle on 24th AvenueThu May 16 1991 18:566
    re .1240
    
    You got nothing, ACCrook, except egg all over joe face.  Dial
    up Stage II program, proton booster coming on-line.  Check.
    
    MrT
17.1243Dean > Bob (And that's all that really matters...)RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu May 16 1991 19:161
    
17.1244SHALOT::MEDVIDwhen our worlds they fall apartThu May 16 1991 19:2611
>            -< Dean > Bob  (And that's all that really matters...) >-
    					^^^	 ^^^^^^
    
    Just remember, you're the one who said it.  From now on, any other
    stats, winning percentages, system philosophies, etc. that you spout
    mean nothing.  It's that Dean is greater than Bob.  Fine, I'll give you
    that one.  I'd say he's greater by about 20 pounds or so.
    
    8-)
    
    	--dan'l
17.1245Witness a man in decline: MrT.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu May 16 1991 19:3613
    No, no dan'l, you miss my meaning.  
    
    Relative to MrT's shameless smear campaign on yours-truly, Dean > Bob
    is all that matters.  
    
    Funny though, how MorT's failed miserably at proving otherwise (and is,
    after all, 0-and-1 in Big Debates like ACC vs. B10) and is therefore
    trying vainly to "personalize" the argument. 
    
    Weak.  Very weak.  (Sad, too.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1246to others a nightmareCNTROL::CHILDSWe need a dose of Bill RussellThu May 16 1991 19:5210
 1 is better than 3? You've surely lost it Crispy Critter....

 why I'll bet you made up the story about meeting the Dean...probably
 just some dream. A shameless hoax you've played on all us...

 the shame of it all...sort like the way Dean turns all world players
 into robots....

 mike
17.1247RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOThe sea lions are back...Thu May 16 1991 20:138
    Lets see, one coach wins one title in 31 years, despite coaching teams
    laden with all-americans and nBA talent.  The other wins 3 titles in
    less years, with less talent.  Yet the one title wonder is greater???
    
    Chris, ya should been a faux Bigtenner - then you'd have some bragging
    rights...
    
    JD
17.1248ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYStars: Miracle on 24th AvenueThu May 16 1991 20:2010
    re 1
    
    Haa.  No, JD, ACCfaux's been talking like he's eyeing picking up
    his "option" on Duke as hiselmer mantra.  Heaven help us if
    he does, cuz *that* program is haided up by a coach with some
    serious credentials, not the least a which is that he's a Bob acolyte
    who not only learned how to coach the gfrom him but how to *play*
    it!
    
    Big10 Tom (credentialed, too)
17.1249this and thatHBAHBA::HAASMiracle Network Car WashMon May 20 1991 10:5818
ACC news.

o  Virginia is being investigated for 36 alleged no-interest loans made
to student-athletes. The loans in question were made between 1982 and
1990 by the Virginia Student Aid Foundation, an independent fund raising
foundation affiliated with the university. Dick Schultz, current head of
the NCAA was Athletic Director for some of this time.

o  Meanwhile the Lady Hoos (is that what they're called?) won the NCAA
women's lacrosse, beating Maryland in the final.

o  Crawford Palmer joins the list of ACC transfers. He's leaving Duke
headed to Dartmouth. I wonder how much Cherokee Parks figured into this?

o  Harvard Lampoon named Christian Laettner Man of the Year. What this
means and why they gave it to him remains a mystery. It's a joke, right?

TTom
17.1250FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Mon May 20 1991 11:2011
    Good weekend for ACC lacrosse.  As Tom reported, Virginia beat Maryland
    in women's lacrosse, 6-4.  On Saturday, Virginia beat Penn State 10-5
    while Maryland beat New Hampshire 4-3 in double OT.
    
    In men's lacrosse, Maryland beat Brown 16-13 and Towson State beat
    Princeton 14-13 in triple OT.  Maryland plays Towson Saturday at
    Syracuse in a semifinal.  Syracuse beat Hopkins 11-8 and North Carolina
    beat Loyola 11-9.  Syracuse plays North Carolina in the other
    semifinal.  North Carolina was the only top 4 seeded team to advance.
    
    John
17.1251Go S.U.!!MPGS::BURGESSMon May 20 1991 14:353
    
    Now Syracuse can show North Carolina how to play lacrosse!!!! :-)
    
17.1252ACChris unmasked, revealed !!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYACChris: show kindness, mercyTue May 21 1991 19:4449
    Upon learning the troubling facts on ACCrook's latest escapade -
    that he's been faking his "Caroina Blue" blood lineage like a
    mutt trying to get over at the Westminster Dog Show - I received
    many mails from concerned noters wondering what drives this main
    to do these things.
    
    Well, I visited the research libraries and uncovered a_ugly story
    that explains why ACCaught's pathology is as mixed-up as it is:
    
    1) ACChris matriculated (and probably percoloated) at Barrington
    College in Vermont.
    
    2) Not long after admitting young Chris, the school encountered
    trouble.
    
    3) The school folded.  Young Knorrs' school went el-foldo.  
    
    4) Then Barrington got taken over in a fire sale by Gordon College.
    Young Knorr went over to Gordon like so much inventory.  Like just
    another piece of meat being trucked out of a packing house in Chapter
    11.
    
    5) Years later, poor ACChris sought something to be proud of.  Thinking
    at the time that it was a smart move a slightly older and wiser Knorr
    took the obvious choice and "became" a_overnight Dean Smith disciple
    and Star Hell "grad" who "bled" Caroina Blew.
    
    6) Soon after he stumbled into sportsnotes and was horrified to find
    out that his adopted object a pride was the target of widespread 
    derision and damning math models.
    
    7) Retreating, he declared himself a Gordon College Gordo main.
    
    8) In his library, MrT unveils the fack that ACCaught is in fack a 
    Barrington main, a main of dissolved inventory, shuttered doors, 
    laid-off professors, and empty classrooms. 
    
    A main a desolation is what poor ACCrisp is.  Have mercy on his soul,
    for is it his fault in the face a his beleagured background that he,
    no doubt without thinking, grapsed for the most obvious and glitzy
    star, the declining Star Hells?
    
    Poor Chris.  Hell, not only aren't you a Star Hell Blue Blood bleeder,
    you're not even a_alumnus a ANY kind, in the true sense a the word.
    
    Like a main who lost his leg jumping freight trains, we cain't mock
    the cain you use (cuz you weren't able to arrange a_artificial laig.)
    
    MrT
17.1253no wayHBAHBA::HAASMiracle Network Car WashTue May 21 1991 20:264
I can handle "kindness, mercy" to ACC (sic) Chris, but you ain't
suggesting that we all swap spit with Dean in the shower, are ya?

TTom
17.1254A GREAT MINE LIKE MINDRAVEN1::OGLESBYTue May 21 1991 23:3112
    HEY GUYS I'M KINDA NEW TO THIS FILE,BUT IT SEEMS EVERYONE
    WANTS TO GIVE ACCHRIS A HARD TIME.MY FIRST IMPRESSIONS OF
    THE GUY IS A MAN OF GREAT INTEGRITY AND KNOWLEDGE AND SOME-
    ONE WHO KNOWS GREAT TRADITION AND VALUES,MUCH LIKE DEAN 
    HIMSELF.SO ACCHRIS KEEP THE FAITH AND I'LL SEE YOU IN
    "BLUE HEAVEN" ONE DAY.   PEACE!!!!
    
    
    
    
    
                                     BIG "O"
17.1255RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWelcome to the Queen City!Tue May 21 1991 23:458
    
    Yep! Blue Heaven in "Orange" county..sounds good to me! :*)
    
    
    Let go of your CAPS...
    
    B.A.
    
17.1256WELCOME TO THE TERROR DOME...RAVEN1::OGLESBYWed May 22 1991 01:317
    YO B.A.
    
    
    I'M A SPORTS EXPERT NOT A TYPIST!!!!
    
    
                                        BIG "O"
17.1257O.K.RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWelcome to the Queen City!Wed May 22 1991 01:4010
17.1258Big "O" not passive, like too many UNC fat-cat alumsRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 22 1991 11:545
    Here here, Big "O"!!!  Now, go easy on him, BA.  When talking Tar Heel
    basketball, sometimes it's hard to avoid getting enthused and shouting!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1259How sweet...fresh meat.SHALOT::MEDVIDwhen our worlds they fall apartWed May 22 1991 11:596
>                     <<< Note 17.1256 by RAVEN1::OGLESBY >>>
    
    Prediction: Big "O" will become a RON after his first encounter with a
    Bob Hunt note.
    
    	--dan'l
17.1260A Tar Heel fan intimidated? Goes against the grain, IMNSHORHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 22 1991 13:409
    > Prediction: Big "O" will become a RON after his first encounter
    > with a Bob Hunt note.
    
    Dunnot be intimidated, "O".  BobHunt's got a chip on his shoulder the
    size of the iceburg that sunk the Titanic.  (See note #37.163 for
    details.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1261MrT: An addict in need of helpRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 22 1991 14:5541
re: .1252 (MrT)

I wasn't even going to offer a reply to this, given the ridiculous
nature of this whole discussion.  But then I got to thinking that
I had an obligation, nay, a *duty*, to report on exactly what kind
of "man" MrT really is.  Let me tell ya folks, it ain't pretty. 

As most of you know, MrT, failing miserably to gain any goods on UNC
or Dean, has gone the route of the personal attack, trying to make
an issue of the fact that I didn't cop a degree from UNC-CH.  (A
fact that'd been made public, oh, at least 2 years ago.)

Anyways after his desperate and failed attempt to dig up dirt on yours
truly from my SPORT buddies he confronted me, mano-a-mano, and said
he'd like more info on my college education.  I complied on condition
that this not be made public or repeated to anyone.  MrT replied with
the following:

(headers deleted, but will be provided if necessary)

	I hereby promise to never, at any time or any place reveal the 
	confidential information you divulge to me concerning your pain 
	and travails having to do with your college.

	MrT

Folks, not five (5) minutes later MrT posted my confidential information
in SPORTS.  

The whole world should know that, beyond any possible doubt, MrT is
a liar.  A crook.  A felonious cheat.  A nasty, ugly dweeb of a "man".
A counterfeit.  A joke.

His only reply to my justified complaints were that he was like a coke
addict who just couldn't resist the temptation.

Sadly but honestly,


- ACC Chris
    
17.1262CAM::WAYHWRFC - New England Tournament ChampsWed May 22 1991 15:091
Yeah, Chris, but ask us if we care.....
17.1263Self-apointed I presumeRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 22 1991 15:1710
    > Yea, Chris, but ask us if we care.....
    
    You've installed yourself as group spokesperson for all the men and women
    through Digital that read this?  
    
    No, there's *plenty* of people who still care about things like truth,
    honesty, and honoring ones word.  I can *feel* it.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1264CAM::WAYHWRFC - New England Tournament ChampsWed May 22 1991 15:3714
Chris --

I could tell you that was the "royal" we, but I was speaking for everyman
and noman...


Let me ask you this:  

	Suppose you were having an affair with Roseanne Barr, and the
	National Enquirer asked you for all the information and promised
	not to publish it....  Would you give it to them????????


'Saw
17.1265MrT: SPORTS' 'National Inquirer'RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 22 1991 15:461
    
17.1266Who cares?SHALOT::MEDVIDwhen our worlds they fall apartWed May 22 1991 16:197
>    No, there's *plenty* of people who still care about things like truth,
>    honesty, and honoring ones word.  
    
    Not since Carter left the white house.
    
    	--dan'l
    
17.1267BSS::G_MCINTOSHULTRIX NETWORKS, CSC/CSWed May 22 1991 16:234
    Get off it dan'l.  Carter was a failure.  You need a subscription to
    the National Review. ;-)
    
    Glenn
17.1268Least he was an honest failure...just like DeanSHALOT::MEDVIDwhen our worlds they fall apartWed May 22 1991 16:281
    
17.1269That is some kinda node you boys got down thereSHALOT::HUNTIf Do Then Damned Else DamnedWed May 22 1991 16:4344
17.1270CAM::WAYHWRFC - New England Tournament ChampsWed May 22 1991 16:509
And across America, millions of thighs shuddered with excitement, 
waiting, waiting, waiting, for the reply to Bob's note....

I'll give another hint (as kind of a friendly ACC type Welcome Wagon):

			GASPIPE


'Saw
17.1271BobHunt 101RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 22 1991 17:0426
> But you can still come back so, Raving Blue, here's your first
> challenge.   Tell us, please, why North Carolina lost to Kansas in
> the Final Four this year.    Before you do, let me whisper a hint for
> you. 
> 
>                              D-E-A-N

Let me give you the low-down on Mr.Hunt, Big "O".  First, understand that
he went to UVa.  The Cavaliers record against North Carolina in basketball
hardly needs repeating, but suffice to say that with the brief exception
of the Ralph Sampson era, their record against Carolina has been pitiful.
Even during the Sampson era Virginia was overshadowed by UNC.  They've
won twice in over 70 tries in Chapel Hill.  

Now the way the Hunt mind works is really quite simple.  Every time 
North Carolina wins, it's cause they've got so much talent.  Every time
North Carolina loses, it's cause Dean Smith choked.

As long as you remember these two (2) things, you'll understand how the 
man thinks, and why.

No, go sick 'em!


- ACC Chris
    
17.1272interested spectatorHBAHBA::HAASMiracle Network Car WashWed May 22 1991 17:219
Enough with the coaching. 

It's a simple question. Let's hear the noter's response.

I have a question for Raving Blue (Bob, dontcha need a (tm)?): did you go
to Chapel Hill? It's not that it matters one way or the other, but it's
nice to know so we can look up what "we" means, in case it's used.

TTom
17.1273Some things are just The TruthSHALOT::HUNTIf Do Then Damned Else DamnedWed May 22 1991 17:3733
17.1274ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewWed May 22 1991 17:4729
    >(ACChris) IS A MAN OF GREAT INTEGRITY
    
    Haaaa !!  Obviously, Big O, you weren't around when ACCrook
    was renamed ACCaught after being caught red handed rigging 
    a contest where he had a few dozen individuals make fools of
    themselves vying for tickets he was secretly negotiating to
    barter away on the side.
    
    >SOMEONE WHO KNOWS GREAT TRADITION AND VALUES
    
    HEEE HAWWW !!  HEEEE HAAWWW !!  If ya ain't noticed, this already
    *is* Blew Heaven, and based on the above statement you may be the
    biggest sucker in it right now.  
    
    Listen up: Chris Knorr has no values.  He's a_amoral creature due
    to the scars a seeing his college closed down beneath his feet; he's
    without any particular identity, shares no tradition, and values only
    being able to derive the benefit of glomming on to the most publicized
    program in existence.
    
    ACC Chris [sic] is a known master of illusion, sorta like on a them
    drifters, carpetbaggers, who ingratiates himself to a family, moves in,
    dines at their table, and soon is talking as if he's a blood member of
    the family.
    
    Quite often these drifters end up as sex criminals or mass murderers.
    In notes, he's ended up as a charlatan, a "we" mite of a gnatural main.
    
    MrT 
17.1275RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWelcome to the Queen City!Wed May 22 1991 17:475
    
    	The Raven Blue will be here shortly...he's thinking of his
    comebacks...if there is any excuses for D-E-A-N!
    
    B.A.
17.1276I *live* for pro-Carolina notes! RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 22 1991 17:537
    > The Raven Blue will be here shortly...he's thinking of his
    > comebacks...
    
    I'm glued to my tube!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1277RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWelcome to the Queen City!Wed May 22 1991 18:135
17.1278CAM::WAYHWRFC - New England Tournament ChampsWed May 22 1991 19:072
HannibalLecter,FrancisDolarhyde,JameGumb,ACChris
17.1279ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewWed May 22 1991 19:4310
    Look at Chris Knorr (a.k.a. "ACC Chris" [sic]) and understand
    this much: He stems, weed-like, from a dispossessed past.  He
    clutches to the safest symbol of tradition and values, defiling
    it in so doing.
    
    Yuck.  What's worse, he won't come clean!  His mating call? 
    
    		"We !!  We !!  We !!"
    
    MrT
17.1280"WELCOME TO THE TERROR DOME"...RAVEN1::OGLESBYWed May 22 1991 21:2432
     Sorry about the "SHOUTING" B.A., but the adreneline starts to pump
    when talking about Carolina Blue. Oh yea B.A., I thought Orange
    County was in Knoxville, Tenn.
     
     Now to all those who wants to know a little about the Big "O" (not
    the zero.) I was born and raised in N.C. the state of beautiful
    scenery and fresh air and the state of National Champions. Enough
    about me, lets get serious and talk about the one and only BLUE HEAVEN.
    
     To adress Mr. Hunt's reasons why Kansas stole that forgettable game.
    
    1. Refs noticed that Dean had started out coaching his pupil down
    the stretch and was getting ready to pull out a last second victory
    so they tossed him out.
    
    2. Heard from a close source in Tarheel Country that Rick Fox was
    extremely weak from the flu, even though he won't admit it publicly
    he was about 40% at game time.
    
    3. Ran into a hot team not to mention very lucky, who had a great
    coach who learned from the best.
    
                         ENOUGH SAID!!
    
     Before I leave can anyone tell me any coaches who has a higher
    winning percentage and graduation rate than THE GREAT DEAN.
    
    Maybe one if any.
    
    
                                        BIG "O"
    
17.1281RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWelcome to the Queen City!Wed May 22 1991 21:308
17.1282wE WELCOME YOU!!!RAVEN1::OGLESBYThu May 23 1991 00:0811
      After looking back in this file and doing some homework
    I notice that me and ACChris had more in common than being
    fans of champions.I notice that we both are GENUSIS and its
    nice to finally find someone on my level.We're not right all
    the time but 99.999% of the time is not to shabby if you know
    what I mean. We Carolina fans have a special going the rest of
    the month,free membership onto our BANDWAGON.No fee or question
    asked for those of you ready to jump and find out what it feel
    like to root for a DYNASTY.
    
    
17.1283Even ACChris can't get one!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWelcome to the Queen City!Thu May 23 1991 00:1516
17.1284"WELCOME TO THE TERROR DOME"RAVEN1::OGLESBYThu May 23 1991 00:597
    I must agree with you B.A., Duke has been building a dynasty over
    the past 6 or 7 years, but NORTH CAROLINA has been consistently
    on top for over 25 years. I hope you can say the same for Duke
    20 years from now.
    
                                              BIG "O"
    
17.1285Near it, but not on it!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWelcome to the Queen City!Thu May 23 1991 01:0415
17.1286"WELCOME TO THE TERROR DOME"RAVEN1::OGLESBYThu May 23 1991 01:3016
    B.A., Answer these three questions if you can..
    
     1. What team has won the most ACC Championships?
    
     2. Has Duke won more National Championships than N.C.?
    
     3. Who has the most former players left in the NBA semifinals?
    
    
     And by the way don't compare N.C. State to the Tarheels. The Tarheels
    won their Championship legally without a crooked coach. Mr. Jimmy (the
    mouth) Valvano.
    
                                         BIG "O"
    
    our N
17.1287Raving Blue Knows Carolina Excuse Book By HeartSHALOT::HUNTBill, those are historical babes ...Thu May 23 1991 02:1350
17.1288Is he really a Clemson fan?FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu May 23 1991 11:246
    A genius who can't even pluralize it properly.  It's geniuses.  And
    just wait until y'all pluralize something by using an apostrophe ....
    
    Bob is right, this is going to be lots of fun.
    
    John
17.1289CAM::WAYHWRFC - New England Tournament ChampsThu May 23 1991 11:3720
John, what do you expect from someone who was educated in North Carolina,
land of cousins marrying cousins and your father also being your uncle.

We haven't even hit GRAMMAR yet (no, not your father's {mother,sister,cousin},
but how y'all talk)

This is going to be extremely fun.  When MrT stops having orgasms about 
hockey and comes back to this note, I'll bet a lot of fur is gonna fly.


Hick Update for the Day:

	Heard on the radio, some guy somewhere beat his wife to death
	with a banjo.  Completely wrecked the first banjo so he picked
	up a second and finished her off with it.....


Yeeee-hah....

'Saw
17.1290RAVEN1::D_SMITHThu May 23 1991 12:0814
17.1291RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOShama lama ding dongThu May 23 1991 13:4332
    For Baby Blue Raving one, and Baby Blue Raving two:
    
    
    Ohhhh
    
    Nothing could be finer, than to play No' Carolina
    In the Tooouuuurrnnnneeeyyy
    Dean'll have 'em gasping, "how much Time" he'll be rasping
    In the Tooouuuurrrnnnneeeyyy
    Rick'll be bricking, now we find he be sickin
    IN the Tooouuuurrrnnnneeeyyy
    Nothing could be finer than to play No' Carolina
    IN the Toooouuuurrrnnneeeyyyyyyyyy
    One for thirty-one, losing must be FUN
    In the Tooouuurrnnnneeeeyyyyyyy
    Genius be ol Dean, but the title count is LEAN
    In the Tooouuuurrrrnnneeyyyyyy
    Hit the women thrice, my name is King Rice
    In the Tooouuurrrrnnneeeyyyyy
    Nothing could be finer than to play No' Carolina
    In the Toouuurrrnneeyy
    IN big game, Dean's in the Hall of Shame
    In the Tooouuuurrrnneeyy
    
    
    I could go one, but you get the picture.
    
    
    JD
    
    PS:  I love "Consistently On Top"  Of What?  Dean's won as many titles
    as Jerry Tarkanian, Coach K., Jim Valvano, John Thompson - hawhawhaw
17.1292EARRTH::BROOKSSay it ain't so Homey !Thu May 23 1991 14:181
    Brutal JD .... :-)
17.1293More fun than a hot tub with Elle MacPhersonSHALOT::HUNTBill, those are historical babes ...Thu May 23 1991 15:4945
17.1294WHO can't compete?WMOIS::REEVE_CThu May 23 1991 15:5419
    re- no way the ACC could compete in football.
    
    Final UPI Standings for 1990
    ----------------------------
    
    1   Georgia Tech(ACC)
    4   Florida State(Soon to be ACC)
    7   Tennessee(SEC)
    9   Clemson(ACC)
    15  Virginia(ACC)
    19  Auburn(SEC)
    23  Mississippi(SEC)
    
    
    HTH
    
    Chris
             
    
17.1295RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWelcome to the Queen City!Thu May 23 1991 18:069
    
    Go get em' Bob!
    
    Dave take your Bowels and go home! All they have are Prescription
    players and crooked coaches!
    
    B.A.
    
    P.S....I'll take Coach K over Dean...
17.1296Dean second rateHBAHBA::HAASMiracle Network Car WashThu May 23 1991 19:5912
Hey, I read today that Dean is not even the winingest Coach in the ACC.
That Baseball Coach Guy from Clemson has over 1000 victories.

I also heard that one of No Carolina's football recruits finally passed
(got over 700) is his SAT_no_apostrophe_s. Quietly, Mack Brown is
singlehandedly attempting to ruin whatever academic reputation No
Carolina has achieved. Someone mentioned something a while ago about the
percentage of "exceptional" admissions for football and basketball
players to each school in the ACC. No Carolina was right at 50% and we
know virtually none of these were hoopsters.

TTom
17.1297Step aside Big "O", and let me show you how it's done. :^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu May 23 1991 20:0156
17.1298RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWelcome to the Queen City!Thu May 23 1991 20:1814
17.1299Guess you couldn't wait for what he had to saySHALOT::HUNTBill, those are historical babes ...Thu May 23 1991 20:5741
17.1300RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWelcome to the Queen City!Thu May 23 1991 21:084
    
    	Anyone have any thoughts on Football? :*)
    
    B.A.
17.1301one has to wonderCNTROL::CHILDSand her head has no roomThu May 23 1991 21:4615
 even a dumb coach would have enough brains to pull a supposedly sick
 kid off the floor before allowing him to shoot 5-22...

 not olde snuffer my system says seniors know best.....

 B.A. does the Big O really exsist or is this like the faux paux judge of the
 trial of this carpetbagging charltan??

 I swear ole Chris create the Big O just to keep up the chatter about
 Dean so he could waxes his woodie properly....

 ;^)

mike
17.1302Yep!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWelcome to the Queen City!Thu May 23 1991 22:0013
17.1303APOLOGIES ACCEPTEDRAVEN1::OGLESBYThu May 23 1991 22:0131
    Okay try to be nice to some people and let them on board the
    bandwagon, and all they do is stab you in the back. So no more
    Mr. NICE GUY. It seems to me that some people are just a LITTLE
    jealous and bitter over North Carolina's success. (not talking
    about anyone in particular Mr. Hunt).
    
    Is it that your upset because N.C. has been POUNDING Virginia
    over the years. 
    
    Someone seems to measure success by National Championships.
    If this is the case Virginia and alot of other schools are
    complete failures and should terminate their basketball
    programs due to never winning the big one.
    
    One more thing, how can you say that N.C. had a deep bench,
    with all Freshmen coming off the bench. I think Dean did a great
    job molding all his players together and making it as far as
    he did with such a young team.Not excuses,just facts if you 
    know what I mean.
    
    Still know one has given me a coach with a higher winning per-
    centage and graduation rate than the Great One. Maybe Coach K
    one of these days, who knows.
    
                                           BIG "O"
    
    P.S. ACChris, all I can say about your comments earlier is
                             
                               AMEN BROTHER..
    
    with all freshmen
17.1304HATFIELD FOR PRESIDENT!!!RAVEN1::J_REIDThu May 23 1991 22:208
    Remember guys, there is only one Orange County and it has Tiger paws.
    
    
    Go Tigers 
    1992 Football National Champs!!!
    
                                             J.R.
    
17.1305Not another one! Rich was enough!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWelcome to the Queen City!Thu May 23 1991 22:2611
17.1306COMING SOON YOUR WORST NIGHTMARE!!!RAVEN1::OGLESBYThu May 23 1991 23:2112
    Don't worry fellows, The BIG "O" does exsist. You have to know I
    exsist because I am becoming your worst nightmare. The reason
    I have not been able to reply as often as I would like is 
    because I've had a heavy work load the past couple of weeks.
    
    The heavy guns will be coming soon to all of you non believers,
    but please believe this.
    
                         HOMEY DON'T PLAY THAT     ..
    
                                                 BIG "O"
    
17.1307RALLY IN THE VALLEY!!!RAVEN1::J_REIDThu May 23 1991 23:2910
    Big deal about Hatfield going 0-1 against Virginia. To run for 
    President you have got to have a soft heart. Looks like to
    me he felt sorry for Calfs.
    
    Lets see, what was it. 
    
    Oh, I know 0-29.
    
                                     J.R.
    
17.1308RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWelcome to the Queen City!Thu May 23 1991 23:548
17.1309Another deep deep shot over the fenceSHALOT::HUNTBill, those are historical babes ...Fri May 24 1991 01:0665
17.1310NOBODY DOES IT BETTERRAVEN1::J_REIDFri May 24 1991 01:086
    ATHLETICS AND ACADEMICS =  CLEMSON
    
    P.S. at least we win our bowl games!!
    
                                         J.R.
    
17.1311RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWelcome to the Queen City!Fri May 24 1991 01:416
17.1312Now we got ACCaught in stereo! 8^oAXIS::ROBICHAUDFri May 24 1991 10:421
    
17.1313CAM::WAYHWRFC - New England Tournament ChampsFri May 24 1991 12:0114
This is too funny.  

I swear to God, if old Deano were to suddenly lose it, and take a high-powered
rifle, and start plinkin' the old Carolina faithful from the stop of the
DeanDome, the faithful would still figure out a way to make him a Saint.

Bob, the Big 0 still hasn't answered your question on his feelings about
ol' Robert E Lee....

Too bad we can't have beer at work.  All I need is a cold one to sit back
and watch this carnage.....


'Saw
17.1314RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOBe Excellent to Each OtherFri May 24 1991 15:3623
    Here's an analogy. 
    
    Suppose you had a proposal leader, who time after time got great
    proposals together.  Built great proposal teams.  Organized great
    meetings.  Built a team.   
    
    But when it came to the finished product - to the deliverable,
    something alwasy was missing, and the proposal opportunity was lost to
    another company.
    
    Friends of this proposal leader always found excuses - the other
    company was too hot in their presentation, the proposal decision makers
    were biased - etc...And the proposal leader kept getting these juicy
    proposals - with talent-laden proposal teams.
    
    Suppose the proposal leader had only secured business once in
    thirty-one times for the company - despite always being one of the
    finalists, or near the top in the preliminary proposal rounds.
    
    Would that person be considered a great proposal person???
    
    
    JD
17.1315ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewFri May 24 1991 16:1322
    ACC Chris [sic] confided to me yesterday in a secret transmission 
    that he was "able to flip a few bits" and work a cluster alias from
    his Atlanta workstation so that he could log onto poor Frank Way's
    CAM as node Raven1.  I assume that he somehow got Bobby Oglesby to
    buy off on this with the promise of ACC Tourney Tix (not the first
    time he's used innocent human beans with the promise of said tickets).
    
    Let us review our Impudent Impostor's shabby track record:
    
    1. Chris-as-Honest Contest Operator
    2. Chris-as-Dean Smith-as-Defense-Attorney
    3. Chris-as-Judge Flopner
    4. Chris-as-Carolina Alumnus
    5. Chris-as-Big "O"
    
    Stinky is what it is.  The guy's college closes from poor sales and
    years later he *steal* ain't recovered, wandering aimlessly from adopted
    identity to adopted identity.
    
    No wonder he's avoided the central issue to 'Snuffer's underachievment!
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1316CAM::WAYSir, it must be CLEARLY so!Fri May 24 1991 16:144
>    Would that person be considered a great proposal person???


No, but I'd bet you a bundle he'd be working at Digital and not for IBM  8^)
17.1317ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewFri May 24 1991 16:1711
    re: Bob Hunt's Note
    
    Bob, you disappoint me sometimes.  You failed to mention that, unlike
    with the Indiana game, the Jayhawks returned from orbit against the
    Blew Heels and went clanky from both the stripe and the arc.  This made
    them a_eminently beatable, if big, squad; but never fear UnderAchievment
    face is here! and was able to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
    
    If it weren't for Freddie Brown where would he be?  [nowhere]
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1318No pooking fun at Sales like dat,JDNEMAIL::LEARYMFri May 24 1991 16:181
    
17.1319Putting things in perspectiveRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri May 24 1991 17:299
    I've heard it said that all analogies are flawed to some degree, but
    JD's breaks new ground.  
    
    I suppose though, to carry on "JD's Logic" [that's fast becoming_a
    oxymoron :^(] there are around 300 salesmen every year and only 1 gets
    the contract.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1320Get in the game, dude, we be a teamSHALOT::HUNTBill, those are historical babes ...Fri May 24 1991 18:039
 Sorry to disappoint you, T, but we're a *team* here.   
 
 So the most bodacious tomahawk slam dunk you just threw down can go
 in your scoring column instead of mine.
 
 Matters not to me.  I'll take the assist; you cain have the bucket. 
 Just keep on driving to the hoop, ya big plate-stackin' stud you.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1321Bash Dean. Bash UNC. But *pu-lease* spare us from this. :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri May 24 1991 18:1810
    Is there anything worse than BobHunt and MrT cozying up together?
    
    Maybe hemmorhoids, projectile vomiting, or diarrhea, but this is on my
    short list.
    
    Blah,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.1322lemme clarify what I said there...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewFri May 24 1991 18:3011
    Bob, sorry if I sounded like a trouble-maker there.  Just wanted to
    point out one a the more egregious aspecks to that joyous moment in
    Indianapolis.  Hey, Ro-*bert* !!, mon AMI.  You are SUPER,  and I 
    thank my lucky stars that we're blessed with a mainly main like you
    who has the requisite intestinal fortitude *and* finely honed
    intelligence to wield the hammer not only with vigor but also with a
    certain judicious aplomb.
    
    Rat on !!
    
    Big10 MrT
17.1323MCIS1::DHAMELLiving the life of a pinballFri May 24 1991 18:468
    
    MrT ain't into plate-stackin' no more.
    
    A man with his taste in mustard, cheese, pate, and mineral water stacks
    nothing but Wedgewood English fine bone china on his butt.
    
    Dickstah
    
17.1324RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOBe Excellent to Each OtherFri May 24 1991 20:2822
    First, let me say I was not poking any fun at our sales force.  I've
    been working with sales folks for a while now, and did not attempt to
    belittle them.  
    
    Chris, you're reaching so far you gonna take your arm outta the
    shoulder socket.
    
    In my experience, the proposal leader has not been a sales person.
    
    And (s)he wouldnt' keep getting the plums if (s)he kept losing.
    
    Dean gets praise for landing one contract in 30 years - and that one
    with a team with 3 NBA superstars on it (One 2-time league MVP, another
    the Playoff MVP) - and has to rely on a most unexcellent mistake to
    nail that one down.  And get this - he was coaching against John
    Thompson and a young, young team.  
    
    When I think of Generals to compare Dean to, I think of maybe]
    Benito Mussolini.  Unfortunately, no one has strung Dean up by the
    Heels yet (pun intended...)
    
    JD
17.1325Robert E Lee= Fifth AdmendmentRAVEN1::OGLESBYFri May 24 1991 22:4246
      Okay Mr. Bob and your little followers, This is for you guys.
    
     Everyone talks about N.C. having so many All Americans, and this
    is true. Teams such as Illinois, Sryracuse, Arizona, LSU, and
    Oklahoma have had just as many All Americans not to mention
    Junior College transfers, "BUT" does their record stack up
    against the mighty Dean.   
    
                           I THINK NOT!!
    
     A little ACC lesson for you guys. 
    
    The ACC has had alot of great coaches such as
    1. Norm Sloan.  Had a couple of great teams and won a National 
                    Championship.
    
    2. Lefty Dresel. (sp) One of the winninest coaches of all time.
    
    3. Carl Tacey.  Very underated coach who always had his team prepared.
    
    4. Bill Foster (Duke) Had a final four team and produced a couple
                          of All Americans.
    
    5. Terry Holland.  Also a good coach who had some great teams.
    
    6. Jimmy Valvano.  Great motivator, who coached his team to a
                       National Title.
    
    Beside being very good coaches, they all have one thing in common.
                         
                       Their gone from the ACC.
    
    The reason they are gone is because they could not handle the pressure
    year in and year out of coaching against the MIGHTY DEAN.
    
    
    One more thing, Coach K is having his fun now, but he will be gone
    in a couple of years, just like all the other challengers before
    him who tried to go up against the Dean.
    
    BIG "O"
    
    
    
                      
    
17.1326The real reasons!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWelcome to the Queen City!Fri May 24 1991 23:5033
17.1327WELCOME TO THE TERROR DOME!!RAVEN1::OGLESBYSat May 25 1991 01:0014
    Oh boy this file is becoming so much fun. Hunt you and your clan
    seem like such nice guys.
    But remember, NICE GUYS FINISH LAST!!      Ask Terry Holland.
    
    As for you B.A. How weak can you get on .1326 
    All I seen was a page full of excuses for each coach, especially
    
    Jimmy (THE CROOK) VALVANO.
    
    Dean don't need a job when he has a Dome named after him. Can
    you name another current coach with a Dome named after him?
    
    BIG "O"
    
17.1328Better stillRAVEN1::B_ADAMSWelcome to the Queen City!Sat May 25 1991 01:0821
17.1329BarfFSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Tue May 28 1991 11:3410
    Semifinals:
    
    North Carolina 19	Syracuse 13
    Towson State   15	Maryland 11
    
    Finals:
    
    North Carolina 18	Towson State 13
    
    John
17.1330Nice try, Raving Blue, now back it upSHALOT::HUNTBill, those are historical babes ...Tue May 28 1991 14:0069
17.1331Those who know basketball & coaching bet to differRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue May 28 1991 14:3442
> Bottom line is that maybe some of these coaches are ex-ACC because
> they got tired of losing the recruiting battles to the Snuffmeister
> but none of them got tired of coaching the games themselves.

The BIG "O" (tm) makes a valid point: Dean has run off *alot* of coaches.
BobHunt sez it's cause they lost too many recruiting battles.  I say
it's cause they lost too many *games*.  Terry Holland might be the lone
exception, and that's simply because he's a man who hated the recruiting
process.

Interesting that the men who coach against Dean have a completely 
different angle on this.  For example Coach K, who has no love lost
for Carolina (to put it mildly) has stated on the record that Dean is
a great coach.  An innovator.  An outstanding teacher.  A great bench
coach.

Jim Valvano has stated on numerous occasions that Dean was the toughest
coach to prepare for.  The reasons are many.  UNC executes better than
anyone.  They throw multiple defenses at you.  They run inbounds plays
better than anyone.  Their execution on offense is difficult to defend.

Any of the top TV analysts will agree with this.  I've never, *EVER*
read anything outside of this notes conference that leads credence to 
the idea that Dean is a poor bench coach.  I'd love to see Mr. Hunt 
bring his "Dean is a Poor Coach" argument to *anyone* that makes a living
coaching basketball.  Anyone have a guess how much credibility he'd
get?  (Zilch, would be my best guess.)

 
> The way you thump your Baby Blue chest is admirable, Raving Blue. 
> Now how about some facts to back up your bluster ???

It's a 2-way street Ketch.  How 'bout some "facts" to back up your
argument that Dean's a subpar coach.  Something that would compare our
recruiting success with the other top programs in the country and then
compare results on the floor would be appropriate.  As someone who has 
closely followed the HS recruiting process over the last decade or so
I can assure you your task is a formidable one.


- ACC Chris
    
17.1332Silly me. Of course the man's greatSHALOT::HUNTBill, those are historical babes ...Tue May 28 1991 15:0429
17.1333ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMrT: SPORTS' objective analystTue May 28 1991 15:1417
    >Any of the top TV analysts will agree with this.
    
    Not true.  Morning after 'Snuffy's all-time gag-o-holic choke
    job against Kansas on ESPN's Reporters roundtable Mike Lupica
    severely criticized "coach" Smif' for his massive substitutions, 
    removal of his only hot hand Lynch, and allowance of Rick Fox to
    drag his team down.  He mentioned a certain loss in 1984 as an
    example of Smif's track record of tournament choke-jobs against
    less talented teams.  Feinstein and the others, even Dick Schaat,
    all concurred.
    
    Of course, not being associated with the Univeristy of North Carolina
    in any way, shape, or form, perhaps your familiarity with this ongoing
    situation is less than what it would otherwise be, Big "O... er, I
    mean, ACCfaux.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1334Same old story. No credit for W's; ALL credit for L's (yawn)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue May 28 1991 16:3713
    re: game losses
    
    It's easy to play Monday morning quarterback after a loss and point
    the finger at Dean.  It's the ultimate in Thypocrisy (tm) to do this
    and not point out the fact that the man has won over 700 ball games, at
    a clip of > 70%.
    
    Of course, we're talking about the man who called our blow-out of
    eventual national champ Duke in the ACC Tourney a "talent win", whatever 
    in he** that is.  :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1335Don't get me started on the Duke grad FeinsteinRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue May 28 1991 16:4515
    re: TV analysts
    
    Do you think Mike Lupica considers Dean a great coach?  The answer
    is yes, cause I heard him sing Deano's praises on his sports talk show 
    outa NYC during the week leading up to the Final 4.  (I was in Bedford 
    for training and listened to it every day on the way home.)
    
    BTW, if my non-alumni status bothers you so much, feel free to ignore
    my notes.  You won't hurt my feelings, and I doubt anyone else
    will mind.  (Sept maybe BobHunt, who, sickening as it may be, has
    become your tag team partner in crime.  How cain you two look
    yourselves in the mirror in the morning?!)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1336RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOBe Excellent to Each OtherTue May 28 1991 17:0327
    ACC Chris - 
    
    what a second, Mr. Hypocrite.  Sports commentators, like Lupica - who
    also writes columns for various  newspapers and magazines - are members
    of the dreaded *MEDIA*.  You know the media Chris - the entity you
    blame countless things on.  In fack(TM), haven't you blammed (TM) the
    media for blowing things like the King Lice affair out of proportion.
    
    SO I get it - the media is great when it praises Dean, but horrible if
    it criticizes Dean, UNC or anything else you hold near and dear.  And
    besides Chris, isn't the media just full of them pinko commie liberals
    that are ruining this country.  ANd I remember another note where you
    swore taht journalism schools must teach muckraking, misquoting and
    other various horrors.   SO Chris, you seem to be contra-dicting
    yourself...
    
    Sort of like when you said Dean couldn't be accountable for Walter
    Davis' love of the toot - but that Dean can be praised for his
    successes.
    
    And yep, the guy has won a boatload of games.  But he's got that one
    champeenship albatross around his neck.  Would you rather go 31-1
    during the regular season and not win the NCAA tourney - or go 19-10
    and win the whole enchilada?  Methinks TarHell(TM) fans would rather
    the prior.  
    
    JD
17.1337Looks like greatness, walks like greatness, wins like greatness, etc.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue May 28 1991 17:3014
    JD, are you bringing up things I said or things you *think* I said.
    Big difference, cause I didn't say any of the things you claim
    I did.
    
    Now it is true I'm suspicious of the sports media.  But I do find it
    just a little unbelievable that it could be so obvious to so many in
    here that Dean is a "choker", and yet have this fact completely and
    wholly bypass our sports press corps, who universally agree
    Dean's a great one.  (Even the jerk Feinstein agrees, only griping
    about Dean's so-called "whining".)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.1338FDCV06::KINGJesse's Jets!Tue May 28 1991 17:483
    Didn't UNC win the Lecross title this weekend of Towson State????
    
    REK
17.1339CAM::WAYThe last full measure of devotion...Tue May 28 1991 17:5714
When Dean can raise the dead, then I'll admit he's the greatest thing
since Jesus Christ...

Till then, he's just someone who performs admirable during the regular
season, gets constipated during The Big Dance, and then wraps his lips
around that ol' gaspipe and sucks it in, sucks it in, sucks it in,
until he's in dire need of the ol' Heimlich Manuever...


And, btw, I think having a dome named after a living person (especially
a hoops coach) is about as tacky as you can get.....


'Saw
17.1340Inquiring minds ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue May 28 1991 18:025
    Question:	Does BobKnight choke everytime his team gets bounced
    		in the 1st round of the NCAA's?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1341Follow the Baby Blue Road ??? No, thanks ...SHALOT::HUNTBill, those are historical babes ...Tue May 28 1991 18:2623
17.1342Basketball Philosophy 101RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue May 28 1991 18:5320
    > Yes, no, and maybe.
    
    > Which is a helluva lot more open-minded and true-to-form evaluation
    > than the customer boatload of Baby Blue "Uh-uh, Not no way, Not no
    
    Untrue.  I posted a throughly Objective analysis of Dean and 'The
    System' in .971.  (Which, BTW, *you* wholly endorsed.)
    
    Losing in the tournament has nothing to do with a coach "choking".
    Coaches don't shoot badly.  They don't make bad passes.  They don't
    miss assignments on defense.  
    
    However their coaching philosophy *can*, IMO, explain certain trends.
    BobKnight tends to do either very well or very poorly in the tourney.
    Dean stresses consistency and his teams reflect that, having been to
    the Sweet 16 11 straight years.  .971 points out (quite candidly, BTW)
    the downside to this.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1343RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOBe Excellent to Each OtherTue May 28 1991 19:178
    So then Chris, if losing isn't the coaches fault, then should the coach
    get credit for the winning?  After all, the coach doesn't hit the
    shots, crash the boards, play the tough D or force the turnover.  
    
    And yep, bob Knight has choked.  But he's also won 3 times as many
    titles as the Deanster.  
    
    JD
17.1344Players win at UNC; Snuff does the losin'SHALOT::HUNTBill, those are historical babes ...Tue May 28 1991 19:5217
 In the eyes of the worshipping Carolina fans, ol' Snuff is a
 spectacular and undefeated 717-0 while his players are a pathetically
 abysmal 0-214 or whatever.
 
 Given the obscenely copious amounts of talent the Rev manages to
 seduce to attend Chapel Hill, I'd say the reverse is just a tad bit
 closer to the truth.
 
 Carolina loses whenever Dean gags.   Usually about half a dozen times
 a year including his annual big finale throat clutcher in March.  
 They win when their hordes of monster talent spitefully overcome his
 restricted airflow.   Happens about 25 to 30 times a year thus
 perpetuating the sadly mistaken myth among the faithful.
 
 And they love him even more for it.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1345Prove he's got tons more talent. PROVE IT.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue May 28 1991 20:0415
> In the eyes of the worshipping Carolina fans, ol' Snuff is a
> spectacular and undefeated 717-0 while his players are a pathetically
> abysmal 0-214 or whatever.
    
    Your words, not mine.  
 
> Given the obscenely copious amounts of talent the Rev manages to
> seduce to attend Chapel Hill, I'd say the reverse is just a tad bit
> closer to the truth.
    
    Dean having magnitudes more talent than the competition is a huge
    fallacy.  At best there's an incremental advantage.  AT BEST.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1346ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMrT: SPORTS' objective analystTue May 28 1991 20:3621
    Bullsheet.  Want proof?  Watch the NBA Finals, where the starting
    fro-tline a one squad ftures two StarHeels, and the other the game's
    most talented player.  All 3 are familiar th 6-4 slowfooted Dan
    Dakich and what brilliant bench coaching cain do to awesome talent.
    
    Bob's teams tend to do very well or very poorly cuz generally they're
    second or third tier talent-wise, and they run the system that cain
    make them dangerous.  Sometimes the system collapses; sometimes they
    steamroll everybody.
    
    By way of sad-sack contrast, the Snuffer's teams cruise into the 
    Sweet16 with awesome talent and depth and, when finally up against a
    squad a smilar talent level, find themselves outcoached and lose.
    
    Worst problem with the Snuffer is his inflexibility.  Where Bob changed
    his offensive style to the running game for the first time ever when
    he saw what he had in Isiah, Snufferupalgis just keeps coaching and 
    coaching and coaching and coaching a coaching and coaching and how
    much time do I have how much time do I have how much me do I have...
    
    Big1Big10 Tom (pedigreed and papered Big10/IU main)
17.1347Carolina fans deny their own talent ... Sad stuffSHALOT::HUNTBill, those are historical babes ...Tue May 28 1991 20:4666
17.1348WELCOME TO THE TERROR DOME!!RAVEN1::OGLESBYTue May 28 1991 21:2223
     Hunt and little t, You guys are breaking my heart with all those
    lame excuses. 
    It comes down to this. Why would all these coaches commit violations
    in the first place? Reason being.
    
    They had to CHEAT just to keep up with the Mighty Dean. They  knew
    if they didn't cheat they would of been out sooner than they were.
    Remember,  No one cheats just to cheat, They cheated to try to win.
    If they were so good coaching against Dean, why take a chance on
    doing something STUPID and getting caught.
    
     Any basketball expert would tell you that Dean has revolutionized (sp)
    the game of College basketball more than anyone over the last 20 years.
    
    So, in other words,
                           WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE
    
    P.S. Mr. Hunt, I would keep bashing Terry Holland, but it is no
         fun bashing a loser, if you know what I mean.
    
                             PEACE DUDE..
    BIG "O"
    
17.1349FROM BOYS TO MEN!!RAVEN1::OGLESBYTue May 28 1991 21:3610
    RE.1347
         As far as Raving Blue commenting on the players left in the Final
    Four in the NBA(5). This is not saying that Dean Smith had more talent,
    it's just stating that he prepared his players better for the future
    than any other coach. This statment is based on Facts, just count
    them, if you can count that high.
    
    BIG"O"
    
    
17.1350LAGUNA::MAY_BRMaster of the UniverseTue May 28 1991 22:186
    
    
                          
                 RCASO IS BACK
    
    
17.1351the jury was right on the insane verdict...At Best, Flagship, hahhahhaaaCNTROL::CHILDSAre you looking for the Motherlode?Tue May 28 1991 22:371
17.1352CAM::WAYThe last full measure of devotion...Wed May 29 1991 11:498
They cheated cause they couldn't beat Dean?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA(tm)....


Been headin' up the holler to Old Number 9 one too many times, I think....

'Saw
17.1353'Ceptin' in the Final Four, a course... NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed May 29 1991 12:518
    
    Yep, that's ol' 'Smif, who's been known to drive good men to drink the 
    demon alky-hol, smoke the evil weed, cheat on the wimmin-folk, and
    beat their young-uns.  A regular menace to otherwise virtuous livin',
    'Smif is...
    
    glenn
    
17.1354proof hereANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed May 29 1991 14:4826
    You're doing great, Bob.  Combine your last note with Waugamain's 
    statistical proof that even poor Snuffer's lone, sad Title was a_
    inevitability anI declare the Greate Debate concluded, with poor
    Snuffy ranking even above Guy Lewis (well above, btw) on the Choke-
    a-Holic index.
    
    Big "O(a.k.a. Chris Knorr) topped it all off with his utterly
    ridiculous implication that these Star Heel NBA pyers are the result
    a Snuffy's fine training, which ignores:
    
    - Choke-jobs resulting in paucity a Titles
    - Hundreds a successful NBA players who played for bums in college
    - Fack that incoming Star Hell frosh are overall highest rated in 
      post-Wooden e
    
    He axed for proof and he got it upside de haid!
    
    Haaa haaa heee !!
    
    Btw, Terry Holland couldn't recruit, but he was better than Snuffy
    at player development and was far superior to him in game coaching
    (which ain't saying much, admittedly
    
    Big10 Tom
    
    
17.1355Another belt high hanging curveKUDZU::HUNTBill, those are historical babes ...Wed May 29 1991 15:0749
17.1356Dean beat Holland senseless, yet BobHunt prefers Terry. Haw haw!!!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed May 29 1991 15:4924
    Actually I don't understand all the excitement in here.  Ketch has
    already conceded the whole argument to me by his acceptance of my "Dean
    Theory" note (see 17.991 and 17.992 for details, assuming the later
    hasn't mysteriously disappeared).
    
    And MrT, who's trying to make hay of my non-alumni status, should
    graciously be willing to concede me a symbolic diploma, given the way 
    he lumps the entire North Carolina educational system under the heading 
    "ACC".
    
    Haw haw haw!!!!1111
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    BTW, THE BIG "O" (tm) raises a valid and correct point about Dean 
    playing a role in all those ACC coaches finding trouble with the
    law.  Take Valvano fer instance.  Dean recruits the 'smart', 'good'
    kids who are good basketball players.  Valvano must match this to
    stay competitive, but while the remaining players are equally as good
    hoops-wise, they're of the 'dumb' and 'bad' variety.  Not many would 
    question that Jimmy's problems originated with the quality of his 
    recruits, and that has nothing to do with their vertical leap or jump 
    shot.
17.1357Too bad you tossed your one shining moment, SoupSHALOT::HUNTBill, those are historical babes ...Wed May 29 1991 16:3453
17.1358ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed May 29 1991 17:2914
    >And MrT, who's trying to make hay of my non-alumni [sic] status, should
    >graciously be willing to concede me a symbolic diploma, given the way
    >he lumps the entire North Carolina educational system under the heading
    >"ACC".
    
    Never did no such thing: Check that stoopid p_name you been running for
    3 years now, read and understand its clear false implication that you
    bleed Carolina Blew.  I think "lumping" something identified by name
    with North Carolina in with North Carolina is fair.
    
    But you cain have a symbolic diploma, you symbiotic imposter you, and
    it's one bearing the imprimitaur a "Barrington College!"  Haa.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1359RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOLive the Mr. T Experience!Wed May 29 1991 18:5522
    Mr. Raving Blue Zero,
    
    So which sandwich move did Dean teach Worthy to do?  Did Dean show him
    how to spread the mayo and position the pickle?
    
    Did Dean show King Lice that the backhand is more effective than the
    forehand?
    
    Did Dean show Walter the correct nostril procedure?
    
    After all, these guys owe everything to Dean - they wouldn't know how
    to dribble without him.  I bet Michael was psyched when Dean showed him
    the cradle into the tomahawk 360 move....
    
    
    re;  Crisp:
    
    Jim Valvano had problems at Iona, before NC State - I guess he
    practiced at Iona, figuring he might someday have to face Dean..
    
    
    JD
17.1360PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT!!RAVEN1::OGLESBYThu May 30 1991 01:1747
     Well Hunt baby, I said i wasn't going to bash Terry Holland anymore,
    but I lied. How can you compare Terry Holland to Dean Smith???
    You say Terry out coached The Dean over the years. What theory do
    you base this on?? Please fill me in on this. BTW, what is his 
    winning % against N.C.
    
     Just because he won a few games against N.C. doesn't mean he
    outcoached him over the years. You're correct in saying he wasn't
    a good recruiter, even though he recruited one of the best
    college players ever in Ralph "THE NBA FLOP" Sampson, whom he
    choked with in the big games every year.
    
     Even though you said Dean choked every year, at least he does have
    a Championship. Can you say the same for Terry Holland??
    
    So if you want to mention Terry Holland in the same breath with Dean
    Smith, just show me some facts on some of his accomplishments
    compared to The Great One.
    
    
       Now to Mr.T lets talk a little about Bob Knight. A great coach
    whom has more than one championship to show for it, whom I must
    admit, is on the same level as Dean even though not as 
    consistent. You can argue all day about who the better coach is,
    and if you go by championships you have a good arguement on your
    side. What I am trying to get around to, is to be a great coach
    knowing your X's and O's and winning Championships is not the
    measure of a great man, Great coach maybe, But not a great man.
    That's the reason I give the overall advantage to Dean
    
    
     If you had a small kid, who would you rather (him or her) sit 
    behind during a game?
    
    
     Personally I would not want a kid to sit behind a loud mouth 
    throw-chairing bum in Mr. Bob Knight. What a role model this guy
    is. The only thing he teaches kids to do is to use profanity,
    intimidate, throw chairs and jerk around and embarass his players,
    whom helped him win those Championships.
    
    This is the reason I admire Dean. To be great you not only have to
    be a great coach but a great man.
    
    BIG"O"
    
    
17.1361CAM::WAYRuck till you puke...Thu May 30 1991 11:3614
I'd rather have my kid sit behind Knight.

So he threw a chair, and he yells at his players.  Lombardi used to yell
at the Packers, and not only did they win champeenships, but 90% of his
players from the glory years are self-made millionaires now, and every one
says it's because of Lombardi's influence.

At least Knight doesn't suck on the gaspipe in big games, and then when
he's been thoroughly outcoached, take a stupid powder with time remaining.

I'd sure as hail not want my kid to watch some guy take the gaspipe continually
in big games....

'Saw
17.1362ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu May 30 1991 13:4226
    >did he show Worthy how to spread the mayo and position the pickle?
    
    Haa.  Truly a classic line, mon ami !!
    
    re: Big "O" 
    
    Ok, Chris, I'll bite: 
    
    - Consistency... 9 for 20 in conference championships, almost the
      same NCAA tourney winning percentage, a somewhat lower overall
      winning percentage that's more reflective of the talent garnered
      fron his (ill-advised) 3-state recruiting practice than it is of
      inconsistent coaching, three Titles.  Bob cain't be described as
      less consistent than the Snuffer in any significant way.
    
    - Role Model..Bob never gave up on his team in a Final Four, Bob
      never embarrassed his players publicly in order to shore up his
      own precious public image, the Snuffer is the loudmouth, not Bob,
      cuz Snuffles never quits whining to the refs, whereas Bob sits
      quietly and only explodes when it's truly merited.
    
    - Teacher... Bob has never had a squad show the poor sportsmanship
      exhibited by the Star Hells when they rumbled with the police in
      the runway after their embarrassing loss to the lesser Jayhawks.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1363Objective facts mean little 'round here RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu May 30 1991 17:0716
    Bullseye markmanship BIG "O" (tm), but let me give you a word of
    warning when you're dealing with folk like Hunt/MrT.  (Is there really
    any distinction anymore?  BobHunt's even turned motorhead on us, ala
    MrT.  Ugh ...)  Don't waste your time trying to bring up objective
    facts like Holland vs. Dean percentages.  The argument goes something
    like this:
    
    o Dean wins 100 games.
    o Holland wins 5 game.
    
    Conclusion?  Obviously Dean choked 5 times!
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1364ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu May 30 1991 20:0011
    >Conclusion?  Obviously...
    
    Chris Knorr (a.k.a. ACC Chris, a.k.a. Big "O") is up to his otiose
    obfuscation again, for what he's doing is working that tired old
    gambit a focusing in on a limited set a data from which he cain draw
    a favorable conclusion, while of course ignoring the whole data set
    and the central issue (i.e., whether or not the Snuffer has donned the
    "G" string he wears as falsely as he put his name up on the False
    Temple erected in his name not to mention that tourist trap in Cleveland).
    
    MrT
17.1365damnationANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Jun 04 1991 14:557
    The fack that 3 of the most important stars in this year's NBA Finals
    are Star Heels stands as a damning statement on why Reverend Under-
    Achievement answers to this fine monicker.
    
    Way to go, 'Snuufer !!
    
    MrT
17.1366CNTROL::CHILDSHappy Mondays, Pills,Thrills&amp;BellyachesWed Jun 05 1991 10:2111
 truer words were never spoken T....applause....bravo...

 anyways for the starheil lovers everywhere all one of you  ;^)

 from the National whispers columun today: James Worthy said Michael Jordan
 was the cockiest freshman ever at UNC and Michael knows why because "I 
 challenged him to a one on one game. At that time I was trying to get his
 respect. Who won? Even he'd post me up and I'd beat him on the perimeter."...

 how sugar sweet these fine young men of Dean are...hahahaa
17.1367ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMrT: SPORTS' Objective AnalystWed Jun 05 1991 16:088
    Good article in the paper todeay on Same Perkins.  It went into great
    detail on Sam learning the game from scratch once he went pro, about
    how he progressed under his last coach with the Mavs but has blossomed
    new functionality now that he's with the Lakers.
    
    It's good to see the kid learn the game of basketball.  Finally.
    
    MrT
17.1368Who's be callin'?RAVEN1::B_ADAMSTake me to the point&gt;Thu Jun 06 1991 22:2317
    umm..J_REID...uH umm J_REID!

    	What's going on down in Tigger town?  Looks like you all got some
    visitors down your way!

    	Sounds like they be axn' bunch's of questions to the coach's and
    faculty!  Could it be....can it be...YES! 

    			T H E   N C A A ! ! !

    	Seems they're looking into the recruiting of a one Wayne Buckingham
    from the B-ball team...just allegations thus far...but don't hold your
    breath!

    	One more time won't hurt them will it?
    
    B.A.
17.1369Truth is more horrifying than fiction, I'm convinced.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jun 12 1991 23:4472
There I was, minding my own business pulling into my driveway late 
Tuesday night, when It came into view.  Looking back on the horrid
moment it's surprising how quickly It grabbed my attention.  After
all, there were countless other cars parked in front of my house and
in the driveway.  (The result of the wife's Women's Club meeting.)
Nevertheless, It may as well have had giant pink neon arrows pointing to 
It.  

The near-mystical nature of my encounter, combined with recent events in time,
immediately convinced me that some sinister plot was at play.  The
coincidence was enormous, to say nothing for the bitter irony.  In any
case I immediately slammed on the brakes (leaving all 4 tires smoking) 
and rushed into the house to see who was responsible for It.  

Upon barging through the front door I was immediately greeted by a house
full of boisterous ladies, exchanging their typical neighborly gossip.
They all seemed to turn to look at me in unison, perhaps sensing my
raging emotions, and I seized the opportunity by quickly eyeing them over,
looking for the perpetrator of this hideous "joke".

"WHO'S THE DRIVER OF THE RED BMW 525i?!!!" I shouted, drawing a puzzled
and angry look from my wife.  Almost at once one of the 
women fessed up, and I can't say I was surprised by who it was.  She was
a rather attractive woman, perhaps 40, but her face showed signs of 
premature age, and her mouth had downward wrinkles on the edges, a clear 
sign that she'd done more frowning than laughing in her lifetime.  She
immediately asked, somewhat obnoxiously, what the problem was.  Had she
blocked my way?  WHAT WAS THE PROBLEM?!

Without saying anything I grabbed her by the forearm and walked her out
the front door, down the steps, and out to her car.  Without saying a 
word I simply pointed.  Pointed to It.  Pointed to the symbolic knife
that was piercing my heart.  

There, on the back of her car, parked in *MY* driveway, was a license
plate frame surrounding her Georgia tag that read:




		-----------------------------------
	        |	A  L  U  M  N  U  S	  |
		-----------------------------------
		|				  |
		|				  |
		|				  |
		|				  |
		|				  |
		|				  |
		|				  |
		|				  |
		-----------------------------------
		|        INDIANA UNIVERSITY  	  |
		-----------------------------------

At this point she explained that, yes, she'd attended IU and that, yes,
she liked college basketball, and that, yes, she thought BobKnight was
God, and that, no, she didn't mind TheBook and TheFan and TheCop and
TheChair and TheRussians, and that, no, she didn't mind Bob choking so
often early in the tourney cause gawd knows he's won three Titles, and
blah, blah, blah.

Of course she immediately wanted to know where *I'd* gone to school
and why I claimed such allegiance to Dean Smith and UNC.  When I asked
her if she knew someone named "Tom Shaughnessy" she shook her head
negatively, but the name "MrT" *did* seem to raise a_evil smile from
her otherwise cheerless lips.

Ugh.


- ACC Chris
17.1370No place like home(heel)RAVEN1::B_ADAMSPoconose no boundries!Thu Jun 13 1991 00:105
    
    	If I were you Chris, I'd stay away fom home! :*)
    
    B.A._don't_look_in_your_backyard!
    
17.1371IU is lacking in the classics?FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu Jun 13 1991 11:284
    She certainly doesn't know Latin.  It should have been alumna instead
    of alumnus.
    
    John
17.1372The final word on Clifford RozierRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jun 13 1991 18:2825
    > She certainly doesn't know Latin.
    
    Either that or she thinks she's a man.  
    
    But back to hoops, ACC-style.  Seems the truth regarding the Clifford
    Rozier saga is finally leaking through.  (His transfer has bothered me
    for several reasons.  Among them: a) It's extraordinarily rare that
    a quality player transfers away from Dean; and b) He leaves a
    significant void in our lineup, with no player standing between 6-7 and
    7-0.)
    
    Anyways Cliffy's parents are in the midst of an ugly divorce.  His dad
    lives in Raleigh; his mom in Florida.  His mom is apparently sickened
    by the thought of her ex being so close to her son, and therefore
    turned the pressure up on junior to move outof state.  
    
    Sad that a mother would be so selfish, especially considering the extra
    earnings potential Rozier would enjoy had he finished his pre-NBA
    apprenticeship under Dean.  Wonder what his/her thoughts were while
    watching the NBA finals, what with four (4) UNC grads seeing
    significant playing time, all of whom played forward to some degree
    while learning their trade at Chapel Hill!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1373When it comes to one's personal life, Carolina has no shame...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Jun 13 1991 18:5117
    > Anyways Cliffy's parents are in the midst of an ugly divorce.  His dad
    > lives in Raleigh; his mom in Florida.  His mom is apparently sickened
    > by the thought of her ex being so close to her son, and therefore
    > turned the pressure up on junior to move outof state.  
    
    These transfers are always some kind of bizarre, twisted, incomprehensible 
    plots on the part of the individual or his family that are in no way, 
    shape, or form reflective of the exemplary guidance and wisdom provided 
    by the University of North Carolina or Dean Smith, huh, Chris?
    
    Where can we assume you dug up this absolutely worst kind of 
    backyard-fence gossip?  Carolina Blue?  Or one of those other 
    pro-Carolina rags you get your hands on?
    
    glenn
      
17.1374For Chris...RAVEN1::B_ADAMSPoconose no boundries!Thu Jun 13 1991 19:1822
    	Just six weeks as being the first player from S.C. signed by Dean
    Smith, Larry Davis announced Wednesday that his first game in the Tar
    Heel blue will be delayed a bit.

    	Davis, the Denmark-Olar-high standout who averaged 44.7 points last
    season to become the state's all-time leading scorer,said he will
    attend a prep school before enrolling at Chapel Hill.

    	Davis, 17, finalized his decision after recently scoring a 690 on
    his SAT, the same score he made in a previous attempt.

    	"Going to prep-school will help developed my study skills,
    everything will work in my favor".

    	Denamrk-Olar coach Ernest Nimmons said that UNC's Smith and the
    coaching staff has supported his decision. They feel his age is a plus
    because he will not turn 18 until October.

    	Davis will attend Fork Union Prep-School in Va. for one year!

    B.A.
17.1375hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaCNTROL::CHILDSProud to be a card carring ABTL memberFri Jun 14 1991 12:017
 Yeah Glen but ain't it great watching the fans buy that crap like it's gospel?
 If that didn't come out of Carolina Blue, I'll eat my shorts....

 ;^)

 mike
17.1376Munch, munch.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Jun 14 1991 15:3631
    > If that didn't come from Carolina Blue I'll eat my shorts.
    
    Better start eating then, Mike.  (And save some for Glenn too.)
    Carolina Blue's "official" cut on the Rozier transfer can be summed up
    with an arrogant "His loss, not ours" comment.  
    
    I disagree though.  It's a big loss, both in terms of reputation (good
    players never leave Dean, cause they know he'll maximize their pro
    potential) and next years performance (we've got nobody between 6'7"
    and 7-0").  The fact that it now appears his decision was made mostly
    cause of an internal family squabble does nothing for the second
    problem, but tons for the first.  Hence, it's newsworthy, significant,
    and worthy of public disclosure.
    
    The same source that sighted his family problems also quoted him as
    saying the Louisville program will "Let me do the things I'm good at",
    the clear implication being that's not the case at Chapel Hill.  I
    agree.  Dean forces you to do (much) more than just "what you're good
    at".  This is one of the reasons his players develop so well.  Dean
    forces them to have a total game, enhancing areas that maybe they're
    not-so good at.  At Louisville Cliff will score, no question.  But will
    his game develop as much as it would have under Dean?  No.
    
    re: Larry Davis 690 on SAT's
    
    Big-time bummer.  We're now left with Henrik Rodl as our backup PG.
    When Dean and me say our prayers at night now, Derrick Phelps health
    will be on our short list of concerns.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1377SHALOT::MEDVIDFri Jun 14 1991 16:2312
>    The fact that it now appears his decision was made mostly
>    cause of an internal family squabble does nothing for the second
>    problem, but tons for the first.  Hence, it's newsworthy, significant,
>    and worthy of public disclosure.
    
    But Chris, I thought disclosure of private doings was one of the
    reasons you, more than most, hate the media?
    
    Or is this different because Dean's "reputation" is involved?
    
    	--dan'l
    
17.1378But I guess you're right, Dean needs help in the reputation dept.NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Jun 14 1991 17:0729
    > (And save some for Glenn too.)
    > Carolina Blue's "official" cut on the Rozier transfer can be summed up
    > with an arrogant "His loss, not ours" comment.  
      
    None for me, my friend.  You didn't name your source (but at least
    you've admitted that "Blue"'s stance is arrogant).
                                           
    The particulars of Rozier's defection become "newsworthy" because poor
    Dean's reputation might be damaged?  What about the reputation of
    Rozier and his family?  I think it's sick that there's a need to find
    some kind of character defect in the traitor who would dare leave Dean 
    Smith's program or in those who would conspire to effect such a thing.
    Assuming that any of that stuff is even the real reason that Rozier is
    leaving, how do you think that he feels about having what is already 
    probably very painful to him detailed in print just because he happened 
    to be a Tarheel basketball player?
    
    What I find particularly amusing is that when the same kid is enrolled
    and playing at UNC he can do no wrong and the circumstances around any 
    perceived wrongdoings are strictly off-limits (see King Rice for an
    example of "non-newsworthiness").  If he leaves, though, watch out...
    What's so wrong about a kid just deciding he'd rather be somewhere
    else, for whatever reason?  I wouldn't hold such a thing against 
    Dean Smith, but the reaction from the disciples in the form of smear 
    campaigns makes me think again...
    
    glenn
    
17.1379Deft touch, Dean!RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Jun 14 1991 19:0611
    Anybody catch Dean during the Bulls-Lakers game 2?!  The twerp Mike
    Fratella dared ask him 'bout holding Jordan to under 20 ppg!
    
    Fortunately Dean's no public relations amateur, and quickly pointed out
    the differences between the college and pro game.  Then he pointed out
    how BobKnight held him to under 15ppg in the Olympics!!
    
    Haw haw haw!!!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1380AXIS::ROBICHAUDSat Jun 15 1991 11:176
    	Hey ACCFaux, JoJ and I were in that fern bar waiting for your
    co-conspiritor to show up when we saw old craggy face on the tube.
    We both opined that you probably were sporting a tremendous woody
    over that one.  Glad to see we were right.
    
    				/Don
17.1381Smoked a cigarette after the game ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jun 17 1991 11:565
    Correct, /Don.  I also was experiencing "thigh-shuddering" pleasure
    over the halftime interview with Jimmy Black and Matt Doherty!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1382CNTROL::CHILDSProud to be a card carring ABTL memberMon Jun 17 1991 13:127
 As Glenn said you haven't named your source I'll be dammed if I'll eat my shorts 
 over your HO. I also mentioned Deano's reference to Bobby the very next day and
 pointed out how it lent much credence to Feinstien article about the Choker..

 Interesting how you and the Big "o" disappeared at the same time when you going
 to reserect him?
17.1383Nice sidestep there, DeanGOLDKY::HUNTI just want to help the ballclub ...Mon Jun 17 1991 13:2234
17.1384But as opposed to some others, at least Dean got 1 from MichaelNAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Jun 17 1991 13:4510
    
    > Fortunately Dean's no public relations amateur, and quickly pointed out
    > the differences between the college and pro game.  Then he pointed out
    > how BobKnight held him to under 15ppg in the Olympics!!
    
    'Course Knight had a few other studs on that team in addition to the
    polished Michael Jordan, and also got the desired result...
    
    glenn
    
17.1385Dean won his Gold with far less talent, BTW. :^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jun 17 1991 14:0113
There is *NO* fundamental difference between the college game and the pro
game.   - Bob Hunt

Ah yes, here it is.  The ultimate statement in hoops expertise.  Thankee,
BobHunt, for confirming our suspicions that, in terms of analytical sports
work, you oughta stick to football, baseball, rugby, ping pong, or
tiddly winks.  *ANYTHING* but hoops!

Haw haw!!!


- ACC Chris
    
17.1386CNTROL::CHILDSProud to be a card carring ABTL memberMon Jun 17 1991 14:066
 Well hawdehawwaa please explain the fundamental differences between the games
 then? The only ones I can think of are zones are legal in college and the three
 point line is closer....

 you my friend are the one who should stick to ping pong....
17.1387... And the shot-clock duration & period-lengthSOFBAS::TRINWARDZAPPA: `read my lips - no }&amp;@#$% taxes'Mon Jun 17 1991 14:123
But otherwise, I agree, Bob -- it's the same game...!

- Steve
17.1388Buttin' inMR4DEC::WENTZELLSelling guns instead of food today??Mon Jun 17 1991 14:145
...shot clock, # of fouls per player allowed, # fouls per team allowed, played 
in 4 quarters versus 2 halves, players older=different motivations (IMO), 
number of timeouts per team(?), pros actually jump when jump ball is called.  
More??
17.1389Zone defense alone could easily account for thisRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jun 17 1991 14:3513
The question is NOT whether the college and pro games are fundamentally
the same with minor differences or fundamentally different with minor
similarities.  The question IS whether or not the rule differences could,
at a significant degree, account for Jordan scoring less in college than
in the pros.

The answer is an unequivocable YES.

HTH,


- ACC Chris
    
17.1390and back then there was no shot clock...CNTROL::CHILDSProud to be a card carring ABTL memberMon Jun 17 1991 15:253
 Well Chris please explain to us all Maravich could average 40+ a game in
 college?
17.1391Dean, not the rulesHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowMon Jun 17 1991 15:4415
Rather than talk around the issue, within the rules of the game
prevailing while Michael Jordan was playing college hoops, it is very
likely - almost certain - he would have scored more points per game at
almost any other program. This was due to Dean's System and not to the
rules of the college game.

In fact, this same system lost several games while Jordan was playing
because of how it dominated how Michael played. I can remeber losses to
State wherein the obvious thing to do was to give Jordan the ball and let
him dominate one-on-one (or in  his case one-on-five) but, of course,
that is not part of the Dean's Way. An example was in 83 when State beat
No Carolina in overtime in the ACC tourney semifinal. Ernie Meyers
effectively covered Jordan, knowing that Dean wouldn't just go to him.

TTom
17.1392Good point, TTom. (That's a *positive*, BTW.)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jun 17 1991 16:4013
    re: .-1
    
    I'm willing to agree that Michael would've scored more points at alot
    of other schools.  He also wouldn't have developed his game to the
    extent that we see today, but that's a given.  (Just ask him.)
    
    BUT, ...  the rules of the college game, without question, held down
    his scoring.  The zone defense was particularly effective, considering
    Michael's outside shot was no where near as deadly in college as it is
    today.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1393Hmmm, looks like Soup's integrity is on vacationGOLDKY::HUNTI just want to help the ballclub ...Mon Jun 17 1991 16:4437
17.1394The quote was accurate; My integrity intact.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jun 17 1991 16:551
    
17.1395Exactly what are you saying? Dean is responsible for past 7 years?SHALOT::MEDVIDMon Jun 17 1991 17:0611
>              <<< Note 17.1392 by RHETT::KNORR "Carolina Blue" >>>
>    He also wouldn't have developed his game to the
>    extent that we see today, but that's a given.  (Just ask him.)
>    
>   considering
>    Michael's outside shot was no where near as deadly in college as it is
>     today.
    
    Isn't that a contradiction within the same note?
    
    	--dan'l
17.1396It was "The Rules". No, wait, it was "The Zone". No, wait, ....GOLDKY::HUNTI just want to help the ballclub ...Mon Jun 17 1991 17:0641
17.1397Accuracy, Si! In context, No!SOFBAS::TRINWARDZAPPA: `read my lips - no }&amp;@#$% taxes'Mon Jun 17 1991 17:101
Although Brother Robert requires nobody to do his defending for him...
17.1398Ketch down for the count, having deja vu staring at ceiling!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jun 17 1991 18:0761
> How would he have scored more ???  I thought it was "The Rules" that held
> him back.   You say so yourself ...
 
I realize the complexity of this is staggering, but I'll give it another
shot:

1. Michael would've scored more at alot of other schools.
2. Michael's scoring was held down by the collegiate rules.

There's no mutual exclusion between the two.  HTH.

 
> It wasn't "The System"; it was "The Zone" that held him back.   

Whether or not Michael was "held back" is an opinion I'd agree with only
if we were talking in 1-dimension.  (Scoring.)  Overall his collegiate
game was good enough to earn him numerous PoY awards.  He sacrificed his
scoring for the good of the team, and it's that attribute more than
any other (willingness to sacrifice) that perhaps distinguishes Jordan and 
other Carolina players from the rest.  


> Bull.  If Air Jordan's jump shot back then was not as good as it
> is today, then the soft college defenses he faced back then for 35 games a
> year can't hold a wet jock compared to the NBA barbed wire and hand
> grenade defenses he sees today for close to a hundred games a year.
 

Me_thinks you greatly overestimate NBA defense and underestimate college
defense.  The NBA also lets Michael (and most others) push off, 
hook with their arm, travel, palm, and any number of other offensive 
violations. 


> Man-to-man defenses are *MUCH* harder to score against than zones.

More brilliant insight from Bob "Dr. Naismith" Hunt.  Tell us then, Doc,
just why *did* all those teams trying to stop Michael play so much zone?
Just why *do* coaches like Carill and Massimino play so much zone?!  And,
oh BTW, wasn't it *you* who said the key to Carolina beating Clemson in
the ACC Tournament was their switch to zone?!  (Yes it was.  In fact,
you ridiculed Dean for switching out of it!)


> Face it ...  Michael Jordan stepped right into the NBA and flourished. 

Yes, he did.  Like many others before him who played for Dean.


> Certainly not because of the constrictive "System" he played under while
> at Tar Heel U.   Rather, it was his liberation from it that gave rise to
> His Airness.   

Michael disagrees with this.  NBA scouts disagree with this.  NBA
General Managers (who draft players) disagree with this.  But hey,
you've already shown your hoops expertise - maybe you should write 'em
all letters an_enlighten them!


- ACC Chris
    
17.1399CNTROL::CHILDSProud to be a card carring ABTL memberMon Jun 17 1991 18:197
 Chris disappears for a week or so and no notes about that wretched Dean-0...
 I miss those days already.....

 the man has wasted almost as much disk space as he has talent....

 Dean Smith Sucks nuff said.....
17.1400And the beat goes on ...GOLDKY::HUNTI just want to help the ballclub ...Mon Jun 17 1991 20:49116
17.1401AND THE WINNER IS...RAVEN1::OGLESBYTue Jun 18 1991 01:4821
     Chris and Bob, you guys are great!! I got to give credit where credit
    is due. No one can touch you guys when it comes to rebuttles. (sp)
    You two are like two great prize fighters. Even better you two are like
    Jordan(Chris) vs. Magic(Bob). I'm a big Magic fan, but I must admit
    Jordan had the better of him in the Finals.
     Even though you are great Bob, just like Magic, You don't have the
    hang time like ACC Chris. 
    
    
    Chris replies seem to be more objective and not as subjective as yours.
    Chris seems to base most of his information on FACTS.
    
     Bob, like I said earlier, you are very very good!! but like Magic in
    the Finals you will have to settle for runner-up in this notes file.
    
    
    BIG "O"
    
    
    P.S. Chris, keep up the GREAT WORK and I will see you in BLUE HEAVEN!!!
    
17.1402Great fodder for future extracts!WMOIS::COOK_TTue Jun 18 1991 11:1212
    re .1400
    
    Sir Bob...
    
    I think you've unsheathed Excalibur!
    
    To Bob, King of the Dean Bashers!!
    
    
    
    TC
    
17.1403CNTROL::CHILDSProud to be a card carring ABTL memberTue Jun 18 1991 11:3511
 Bob, don't you get sick of pounding him senseless? It's so obvious that he/they
 will never see the light...

 funny how the Big "o" has strangly reappeared......

 I know what the problem was in 84. Michael wasn't a senior. If he was a senior 
 then Snuffy might have turned him loose like Brick Fox(tm)...


 hahahhahaaa
17.1404Someone get Knorr some smelling salts!SHALOT::MEDVIDthe addiction of duplicitiesTue Jun 18 1991 11:4015
>                     <<< Note 17.1401 by RAVEN1::OGLESBY >>>
>    You two are like two great prize fighters.     
>    
>    Chris replies seem to be more objective and not as subjective as yours.
>    Chris seems to base most of his information on FACTS.
    
    Oh, now there's an objective decision.  Like boxing, that decision was
    fixed.  Bob's .1400 has layed Chris flat on his back and the objective
    ref is counting to ten.  Then we have judges like the Big Zero come in
    and declare something totally opposite.
    
    Great note there, Bob Hunt.  One of the best I've read in this
    conference this year.
    
    	--dan'l
17.1405Yeah, I could use a breather ...GOLDKY::HUNTI just want to help the ballclub ...Tue Jun 18 1991 12:3728
17.1406FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Tue Jun 18 1991 13:005
    Yes, lets please have a truce.  In fact, lets make it a permanent
    truce.  Discussions about Dean Smith, pro and con, are the biggest
    waste of disk space there is in this conference.
    
    John
17.1407Now this would be a lot of wasted disk space...SHALOT::MEDVIDthe addiction of duplicitiesTue Jun 18 1991 13:176
>    Discussions about Dean Smith, pro and con, are the biggest
>    waste of disk space there is in this conference.
    
    Imagine if Dean were a rugby coach!  ;-)
    
    	--dan'l
17.1409{Nexted Unseen} is *STILL* the cure for ratholesGOLDKY::HUNTI just want to help the ballclub ...Tue Jun 18 1991 13:5210
 Not to mention what would happen if Snuff's rugby team ...
 
 	1) Used a designated hitter, 
 	2) Had to play against a team with Wilt Chamberlain in the lineup,
 	3) Had Muhammed Ali as its spokesman, 
 	4) Watched "Airplane!" a lot, and of course,
 
 	5) Choked every spring ...
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1410Hunt = Muhammad Ali of noters; ACC_Chris = George ChuvaloTNPUBS::NAZZAROGet out another asterisk!Tue Jun 18 1991 14:075
    I hear ya, Hawk - I had been scrupulously avoiding the ACC rathole ..
    er, note for a long time.  I was glad I got back in in time to read
    note .1400.  Genius, pure genius, Mr. Hunt, sir.  You are the greatest!
    
    NAZZ
17.1411A truce? Okay, but here's my parting shot.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jun 18 1991 14:2297
> You're right, there is no mutual exclusivity between the two.  However,
> together they form an oxymoron unless you can prove that these "other"
> schools somehow played by a different set of rules under which Michael
> would have scored more often than he did under Snuffy.    

My two (2) statements are no more oxymoronic than stating that water
can boil if heated over a stove or nuked in a microwave.  They're 
completely seperate reasons that contribute toward an end result.


> Snuffy could have walked out of The Omni smelling like a rose if he had 
> just let Michael do his thang.  

With the benefit of hindsight it's possible to always be correct.  If
The System had been abandoned that night and Michael allowed to free
lance all game the results certainly couldn't have been any worse, could
they?  

The fact is you have to be more than good to win an NCAA Tournament.
It's a rare event when the best team wins the Title.  Over the past 15 
years or so it's probably happened maybe 3 or 4 times.  Any team can
beat any other team on a given night, and come tourney time one bad
night means you're finished.  

In 1984 fate dealt us a lethal blow in Baton Rouge, LA, when an LSU
player unleashed an uncalled for cheap shot against Kenny Smith during
a breakaway dunk, resulting in a slow-healing broken wrist.  Prior to that 
incident the 1984 Tar Heels were probably the finest team Dean's ever had.  
After that incident the team was never the same.


> Why do you think the NBA forbids zones ???   Because the shooters are so
> good and they ain't under any silly system rules that forbid them to take
> a shot when they're open.

If you're right why would the NBA even bother outlawing it?  They'd need
a rule banning the zone about as much as society needs a law banning
people from hitting themselves in the face with glass bottles.

The fact is a zone could most definitely be effective in the NBA cause
it forces the outside shot.  Simple logic dictates that the farther you
are from the basket (all other things being equal) the greater the shot
difficulty.  (This, BTW, is one of the underpinnings of Dean's System.
You sacrifice an open 20-footer for an open 15-footer, an open 15-footer
for an open 10-footer, an open 10-footer for an open 5-footer, and an
open 5-footer for a lay-up or dunk.)
 
The NBA doesn't allow zone because it no_doubt runs against the grain
of their "Fan-tastic" image, which dictates that athletic one-on-one
moves generate higher ratings than long-distance shooting.


> You yourself let out a big "Whew!" after that one.

And *you* let out a big "Ack!" after Carolina disposed of your 
beloved Hoos.  I'll take a "Whew!" over an "Ack!" any day.  Haw haw!!


> The issue is not whether Carolina players go on to star in the NBA. 
> That's a given.   

Thank you.


> The issue with Snuff and the Star Heels is why do they flourish *AFTER* 
> they leave his domain ???   Michael Jordan became "Air Jordan" after he 
> donned Bull Red, not while he was wearing Baby Blue.

Michael Jordan was named College PoY by just about everybody after his
junior season.  You call this not flourishing?  (Oops, forgot.  Your
definition of success is defined by the singular statistic of "points".
Funny how they just don't hand MVP/PoY awards to the nations scoring leader
every year, ain't it?!)

 
 
> They may say that he learned a lot from the Snuffmeister

Thank you.
 

> I'd *love* to hear an NBA "expert" convince me that Carolina didn't gag
> big time in 1983 and 1984.

And *I'd* love to hear an NBA "expert" tell me that Dean Smith isn't
flat-out one of the greatest coaches of all-time.  Heck, I'd settle for
a media expert, or even a college coach whose faced him on a regular basis.  

Lacking that though, those jealous of Dean's ridiculously successful
program must settle for patting BobHunt on the back after he's entered
another emotional and subjective diatribe.  

Whatever,


- ACC Chris
    
17.1412Maybe this should be on pay-per-view!SHALOT::MEDVIDthe addiction of duplicitiesTue Jun 18 1991 14:3212
    
    
    ...3...4...5...Chris gets back to his feet, he staggers, Bob Hunt gets
    ready to pound once again but instead feels sorry for Chris' hapless
    ignorance and calls a truce, but Knorr cannot maintain his balance and
    tries in vain to prove he is a champ, but no he stumbles ineptly
    flailing wild punches at the ever-stealth Bob Hunt (.1411) and
    falls...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10...YER OUT!!!
    
    Rematch this fall.
    
    	--dan'l
17.1413RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOShould I stay or should I go....Tue Jun 18 1991 14:4426
    Chris -
    
    Good thing Dean coaches in college - he'd a_been canned a long time ago
    in the pros.  His results remind of say - Davey Johnsons with the Mets.
    Davey had good talent - and his team consistently won over 90 games a
    season.  Successful, No?  NO!  Why, cuz Davey only delivered ONE
    champeenship with those teams.  HE suffered from Snuffy Smif disease.
    
    And the gutters are littered with others like him.  I still find it
    very funny that Air Jordan is the symbol of everything good, and the
    Snuffmeister is responsible for all Air is - but then isn't he ALSO
    responsible for Walter Snort Davis?   If Air is everything good,
    wouldn't Wally be the Anti-Air in Dean's charade?   
    
    Chris, no one is jealous of Dean.  He wins during the regular season. 
    He recruits studs to the stable.  He chokes in the postseason.   1
    title is his albatross.  He wears it like a scarlet letter.  The
    pressure to deliver on the talent leads him drooling and babbling off
    the court wondering how much time is left.  It causes his assistants to
    try to attack a ref (an incident you conveniently poo-pooed - imagine
    if say, John Thompson's assistant had done it - the howls from Tar
    Hell(TM) land would still be echoing).  
    
    And if not for Freddie Brown, the Deanmeister might still be oh-fer...
    
    JD
17.1414No, sir, I shall not respondGOLDKY::HUNTI just want to help the ballclub ...Tue Jun 18 1991 14:4528
 Once more, for the record, let me state that I will refrain from the
 debate in the spirit of the Summertime Snuff Truce.
 
 And, oh, I would dearly *love* to do so, too.   Soup's latest reply was a
 veritable plethora of dull and lazy clay pigeons just dying to be blasted
 outta the sky.
 
 Let's see now, we had ... 
 
 1) Yet another description of an Excellent Loss, 
 2) Yet one more complaint about Kenny Smith's 1984 wrist, 
 3) Yet another analysis of Snuff's "The System", 
 4) Yet another raspberry for yet another Carolina win over Virginia, 
 5) Yet more woodie lacquering for Dean's ability to recruit future NBA stars,
 6) Yet another mixture of the words "Dean" and "Great" in the same sentence,
 
 And ...
 
 7) Yet one more attempt to discredit me as emotionally subjective.
 
 Yep, I could craft a beautiful reply, one for the ages, carefully drawing
 a delicate bead on each of these ridiculously threadbare and ludicrous
 Baby Blue data points and blasting them into oblivion but, no, I gave my
 word.
 
 A Virginia Gentleman's word is his honor.  I shall not reply.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1415One more time JD, with feeling: COLLEGE <> PRO.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jun 18 1991 14:548
    Does this truce apply to cornermen like Childs and JD and Nazz and
    MrT and [name your favorite jealous Carolina hater]?
    
    Just curious, cause while I've effectively shut down BobHunt for the
    summer the ramblings of his henchmen are still loose on CAM::.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1416RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOShould I stay or should I go....Tue Jun 18 1991 15:0711
    Chris -
    
    I don't hate Carolina at all.  As I've stated, some of favorites -
    including Bobby Jones, have attended there.  I don't like Dean Smith's
    System - and I don't like Dean Smith's babby blue blinded fans.  
    
    I don't understand your heading either.  Are you implying that college
    and pro are separate?  If so - then stop talking about Dean's 'players'
    in the pros.  It's one way or the other Chrisboy.
    
    JD
17.1417AXIS::ROBICHAUDTue Jun 18 1991 15:2013
17.1418A truce implies a "W" for Dean, IMNSHO.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jun 18 1991 16:2013
    re: /Don
    
    If you want to continue with the boxing analogy, fine.  Consider two (2)
    fighters in the ring, mano-a-mano.  After many bloody and hard fought
    rounds, one of 'em offers a "truce".
    
    Now, which one would you think the next mornings daily would think was
    winning??  (And pu-leaze, no fiction about showing mercy.  BobHunt
    doesn't have that word in his vocabulary, at least as far as UNC is
    concerned.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1419"JD Breaks Truce; War Rages On"RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jun 18 1991 16:2812
    re: JD (COLLEGE <> PROS)
    
    My title stems from your unfair comparison of Dean with a professional
    coach/manager, although it highlights perhaps the most fundamental
    difference between "you" (i.e. all anti-Dean's) and me/Dean.
    
    Winning Championships is essentially what professional sports is all
    about.  In the college game Dean and I would rate this well down on the
    list of priorities.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1420CAM::WAYRuck till you puke...Tue Jun 18 1991 16:3111
So, from what I've read, Dean has The System, and like a child trying to fit
a square peg into a round hole, when it's not working he sticks with it and
keeps jamming and jamming trying to make it fit...

Thank God the USMC doesn't hold with that philosophy, and that they encourage
improvising, overcoming and adapting (in short THINKING on their feet).  If 
they consistently tried to jam a losing system into every situation, 
the Japanese would be controlling the entire Pacific today.....


'Saw
17.1421Dude don't want no truce; Dude doesn't have to have oneGOLDKY::HUNTI just want to help the ballclub ...Tue Jun 18 1991 16:5132
17.1422When push comes to shove, punt the winning and losing part...NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Jun 18 1991 17:0324
    > Winning Championships is essentially what professional sports is all
    > about.  In the college game Dean and I would rate this well down on the
    > list of priorities.
    
    Well, at least this appears to be a much more honest and rational
    approach to the argument than the usual unsupportable excuse-making
    about long odds and injuries, misery and misfortune, ad nauseum.  While
    I do feel insofar as winning is always a goal in any competition that
    proving oneself to be *the best* then becomes the ultimate manifestation
    of that competitive goal, I agree that other larger, non-competitive  
    objectives are indeed possible.  (However, winning regular season
    games, matchups against hated Virginia, and ACC titles and tournaments 
    cannot be logically included amongst those greater goals without 
    the obvious contradiction.)
    
    I, too, will leave this endless debate content in the knowledge that 
    ACChris has made the tacit admission that winning isn't everything, 
    and that Dean Smith really can still be judged in a fair light even 
    if actual, results-oriented criteria from the best college basketball
    has to offer are employed...
    
    glenn
     
17.1423RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOShould I stay or should I go....Tue Jun 18 1991 17:057
    So Chris - If Dean had a .250 winning percentage, you'd still love him
    and his system?  You wouldn't care if he lost all those games. 
    Youwouldn't care if he never made the NCAA TourneY?
    
    You know more positions than a Bangkok Hooker...
    
    JD
17.1424FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Tue Jun 18 1991 17:0533
    If winning isn't the bottom line in college, then what the hell is?  If
    making money with college athletics isn't the bottom line, then what
    the hell is?  College sports have been perverted from their original
    purposes by the money to be made from live attendance and TV contracts. 
    I don't see too many coaches being fired for poor graduation rates, or
    for not building character, or for having their players turn out to be
    drug addicts or bums after their college careers are over or whatever. 
    I see plenty of college coaches getting fired for not winning.
    
    While Dean and Bob Knight and Dick MacPherson (while he was at Syracuse)
    and Joe Paterno and so on are to be commended for not treating their
    players like "Meat on the Hoof" I suggest that had they not been
    winning coaches, their butts would have been out the door a long time
    ago (I don't count championships among this) and they would have been
    replaced by coaches who would have won more games.  Mac, for all the
    good he did while at Syracuse, was almost fired before his great
    back-to-back seasons of 1987 and 1988 because Syracuse started out 1-4
    in 1986.  Boosters and fans don't really give two shits about a
    school's graduation rate or the careers that the guys go onto after
    their playing eligibility is over - all they really care about, when
    you come right down to it, is winning.  A 100% graduation rate doesn't
    cut it in the corner tavern when it's chest-thumping time about who's
    alma mater is the best.  It's nice to win with students if you can do
    it, but it turns out, in reality, tis better to win with good athletes
    and borderline criminals than it is to lose with a bunch of
    well-behaved valedictorians.  This isn't my personal opinion but it's
    the reality of the situation.
    
    Anyone who suggests that winning is not the bottom line of big-time
    college athletics is simply being naive.
    
    John
                                 
17.1425Another standing 8 count ...GOLDKY::HUNTI just want to help the ballclub ...Tue Jun 18 1991 17:2929
17.1426MCIS1::DHAMELTangos With PigsTue Jun 18 1991 17:317
    
    >the Japanese would be controlling the entire Pacific today.....
 
    You mean they *don't*?
    
    Dickstah
    
17.1427NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Jun 18 1991 18:4117
    > Anyone who suggests that winning is not the bottom line of big-time
    > college athletics is simply being naive.
    
    Hey John, I was just mostly funnin' Chris, honest... but I do think
    that the guys you mentioned prove that it doesn't necessarily have to 
    be one or the other, and the other side certainly does get noticed
    and serves as a point of pride for alumni (the real studs like Knight 
    and Paterno don't have the "character before championship" excuse 
    catch up with them come postseason title time, either).
    
    I thought you'd had enough of this rathole though, Ninj?  
    
    ;-)
    
    glenn
    
17.1428CSOA1::BACHDoes counter-culture involve formica?Tue Jun 18 1991 18:4820
    Winning ain't the bottom line.
    
    The bottom line is entertainment.  If teams draw crowds and attention
    they draw $BUCKS$.  If the draw $BUCKS$ the owners are the most happy.
    
    Winning (or playing competitive) helps the entertainment factor, but
    there is far more to computation than _THE_BIG_GAME_.  Look at the 
    G'int sales of SB junk outside of N.Y.,  I think I heard G'intwear
    is selling below Raiderwear, and the G'ints took the big one in a 
    close, exciting S.B.
    
    Look at my Cubbies, they finished repectably four times since I was 
    born and they didn't even need/have lights/nite games until two years 
    ago.
    
    Money is the bottom line in all sports.  And marketing your team
    successfully is the key, all the better if they win, but not the
    only factor.
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach
17.1429over and out until bball season...CNTROL::CHILDSProud to be a card carring ABTL memberTue Jun 18 1991 18:579
 I'll keep my keyboard quiet if you will. But I doubt you will. You've been
 beaten over the head so many times I don't think you can see the light at
 the end of the tunnel. Every single one of us Dean bashers has at one time
 or another given the man some type of praise for his program but still that's
 not enough for you. I swear you enjoy talking/worshiping Dean more than you 
 do SEX..........

 mike
17.1430Operation SportStormMCIS1::DHAMELTangos With PigsTue Jun 18 1991 19:016
    
    Unquestionably, future noters looking up the anals of ::SPORTS will see
    this note as "The Mother of all Ratholes."
    
    Dickstah
    
17.1431Ah, I'd prefer to look elsewhere...SOFBAS::TRINWARDZAPPA: `read my lips - no }&amp;@#$% taxes'Tue Jun 18 1991 20:0512
    >> Unquestionably, future noters looking up the anals of ::SPORTS will
    				     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    >> see this note as "The Mother of all Ratholes."
    
    >>  Dickstah
    
    PLEASE tell me the typo was intentional, Mr. H.
    
    - Steve, preparing_to_R-O-L-L-L-L!!
    
      
        
17.1432Never said winning not important. Most definitely is ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jun 18 1991 20:1914
    Just to clarify one point.  [Gotta, cause I hate being called
    naive more than most 4-letter words!  ;^)]
    
    I never claimed *winning* wasn't important in college.  It most
    certainly is.  However college coaches don't get fired for not winning
    *championships*.  They get fired for not *winning*.  This cannot
    be said of the pro game.  
    
    Also consider that the NCAA Tournament is not structured to facilitate
    the best team winning.  If that were true they'd pick the best 8 teams
    in the country or so and let them play best-of-7, NBA-style.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1433QUITTER=LOSERRAVEN1::OGLESBYWed Jun 19 1991 01:5423
       Bob, What's up with this?? You once was a guy who I respected a
    LITTLE bit even though I didn't agree with your subjective opinions.
    
    I come to work and find out you got scared of Chris and threaten
    to quit this Note, then later found out that you took a few brave pills
    and decided not to quit.
    
    
                             But remember Bob!!!
    
    
            
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
                      ONCE A QUITTER ALWAYS A QUITTER...
    
    BIG "O"
    
17.1434AXIS::ROBICHAUDWed Jun 19 1991 11:195
	I wish you guys would stop picking on Faux.  I consider us kindred 
spirits, sort of.  He likes Dean Smith and I almost choked to death once on 
a Thanksgiving turkey wishbone.

				/Don
17.1435Like clockwork: /Don starts morning with Dean-kick!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jun 19 1991 11:371
    
17.1436CAM::WAYRuck till you puke...Wed Jun 19 1991 11:4611
It's time to hoist Mr Oglesby by his own petard....

	"Once a quitter always a quitter"....

Hmm, I guess that means Dean's powder against Kansas last March puts him
into that category...

What do you think, Bob Hunt?  Is Dean a quitter extraordinaire?


'Saw
17.1437SweetGOLDKY::HUNTI just want to help the ballclub ...Wed Jun 19 1991 12:243
 Nicely done, 'Saw, nicely done.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1438MCIS1::DHAMELTangos With PigsWed Jun 19 1991 12:2514
    
    >PLEASE tell me the typo was intentional, Mr. H.
    
    >- Steve, preparing_to_R-O-L-L-L-L!!
    
    Ummm...yeah....yes.   Yes, of course it was intentional Mr. T(rinward).
    
    I can spell, and you knew that, and I knew you knew that.  You think I
    didn't know that?
    
    BTW, are archive librarians annals retentive persons?
    
    Dickstah
    
17.1439AXIS::ROBICHAUDWed Jun 19 1991 12:385
RHETT::KNORR "Carolina Blue"                           1 line  19-JUN-1991 08:37
            -< Like clockwork: /Don starts morning with Dean-kick! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	I'm consistent, like Dean.  Toldja' we wuz kindred spirits.    
17.1440putting things in perspectiveMCIS1::DHAMELTangos With PigsWed Jun 19 1991 12:509
    
    My dentist has been consistently recognized by his peers as one of the
    top men in his field, yet he has never been awarded the "Man of the
    Year" award by the American Dental Association.
    
    He does, however, have many "Excellent Flosses" to his credit.
    
    Dickstah
    
17.1441CAM::WAYRuck till you puke...Wed Jun 19 1991 12:575
By Friday, (hopefully), or early next week at the latest, I will enter
an essay into this topic.  It will be a good one, no doubt about that.
I'm putting this teaser here now to motivate myself to do it...

'Saw
17.1442Recruiting ... Recruiting ... Recruiting ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jun 19 1991 13:2367
    Well folks it's time to divert from the usual ratholes and concentrate
    on something near and dear to my heart:  HOOPS RECRUITING!
    
    The Poop Sheet has done its usual overwhelming job of ranking the
    nations Top 200 Prep Senior Prospects.  (That's alot of bodies!)
    
    I'll go into more detail on the ACC Schools in a later note, but
    here's both a team and conference summary.  Note that, as usual,
    teams are broken down into three (3) categories.  Those signing
    5 or more players; those signing 3-4 players; and those signing
    2 or fewer players.
    
    Couple of comments, before presenting the raw numbers:
    
    o Note the continued poor showing of The Big East 
    o UNC's standing is overstated, because it assumes the signing
      of Larry Davis.  Davis is prep-school bound.  This same
      scenario is likely with alot of other schools as well.
    o The ACC has continued to do extremely well, although its
      "victory" over the Big 10 is slim at best.
    o Michigan had an *unbelievable* recruiting year.
    
    Enjoy!
    
CONFERENCE RECRUITING RANKINGS
==============================

1. ACC
2. Big 10
3. Big 8
4. SEC
5. Big East
6. Pac 10
7. Great MW
8. Atlantic 10
9. WAC
10. Big West


NATIONAL TEAM RECRUITING RANKINGS
=================================

Rank 5+			3-4			1-2
====================================================================
1. Michigan		Ga Tech			Duke
2. Kansas		DePaul			UNC
3. UVa			FSU			Tulane
4. UConn		NCSU			Providence
5. Syracuse		Temple			Mich St.
6. Tennessee		Arizona			Seton Hall
7. Purdue		Indiana			St. John's
8. Kansas St.		UNLV			S. Carolina
9. Arizona St.		Kentucky		Iowa
10.Cincinnati		Arkansas		Louisville
11.Clemson		Ohio St.		Xavier
12.Oklahoma		Illinois-Chi.		Illinois
13.California		Utah			UNCC
14.Miss. St.		Memphis St.		Washington ST.
15.Nebraska		Vanderbilt		Missouri
16.Auburn		LSU
17.Alabama		Georgia
18.Houston		St.Joe's
19.Iowa St.		LaSalle
20.Rutgers		UTEP	

    
    - ACC Chris
17.1443Henry Williams + good recruits = !!!SHALOT::MEDVIDthe addiction of duplicitiesWed Jun 19 1991 13:4411
    Thanks for taking the time to post that, Chris.  This was especially
    nice to see:
    
> 13.California		Utah			UNCC
                                                ^^^^
    
    I don't know who the 49er's recruited, but this team has certainly been
    improving on the personnel front lately.  
    
    	--dan'l (Technical Communications instructor, UNCCharlotte)
    
17.1444JC players should have a more immediate impact.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jun 19 1991 13:5510
    dan'l,
    
    The 49er's strong recruiting year must be coming from their strong JC
    signings, cause I don't see a single Top 200 Prep player who signed on
    for them.
    
    I'll have to check a back issue to see who they got.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1445Sounds like lotsa fun to me!TNPUBS::NAZZAROGet out another asterisk!Wed Jun 19 1991 19:505
    I am flattered to be considered a "henchman" for Bob Hunt.
    
    Hey Bob - when do we go henchin'?
    
    NAZZ
17.1446ACC RECRUITING SUMMARY (1990-91)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jun 19 1991 20:04121
    Here it is folks, the info you've been glued to your tube for all
    afternoon!  The 1990-91 ACC Recruiting Summary!!  
    
    The teams are listed in best-to-worst order.  I'll reserve my
    commentary on this years crop for a later time.
    
    regards,
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    1990-91 ACC RECRUITING SUMMARY
    ==============================
    
codes:

(*) = Not yet passed SAT
(f) = Failed SAT and will attend prep school
(r) = redshirt freshman
(t) = transfer who's ineligible for the 1991-92 season

VIRGINIA
========

Player			Pos	Height	Rank	Town/HS/St

Alexander, Cory		PG	6-1	9	Mouth of Wilson Oak Hill, VA
Burrough, "Junior"	PF/WF	6-7	15	Mouth of Wilson Oak Hill, VA
Williford, Jason	WF/WG	6-6	46	Richmond Manchester, VA
Barnes, Yuri		BF/C	6-8	85	Richmond John Marshall, VA
Alexander, Chris	C	6-10	125	Long Branch High, NJ


CLEMSON
=======

Player			Pos	Height	Rank	Town/HS/St

Wright, Sharone		C	6-10	16	Macon Southwest, GA
Gray, Devin		WF/BF	6-7	68	Balt St.Francis-Charles Hall, MD
Wood, Keith		WG	6-4	Top 100 Hagerstown (MD) MD
Whitney, Chris		PG	6-1	Top 150 Lincoln Trail (IL) JC
Wallace, Cory		WF	6-6	Top 150 Allegany (MD) JC
McQueen, Desi		BF	6-8	153	Bennettsville Marlboro Co, SC
Smith, Anthony		PG	6-1	--	??, GA
Amestoy, Ryan		WF/WG	6-6	--	??, GA


GA TECH
=======

Player			Pos	Height	Rank	Town/HS/St

Forrest, James		BF/WF	6-7	3	Atlanta Southside, GA
Best, Travis		PG	5-11	13	Springfield Central, MA
Vinson, Fred		WG	6-4	Top 150	Chowan (NC) JC
Barry, Drew		WG	6-2	--	??


FLORIDA STATE
=============

Player			Pos	Height	Rank	Town/HS/St

Cassell, Sam		PG	6-3	Top 5	San Jacinto (TX) JC
Brown, Dwight (*)	WG	6-4	51	St. Petersburg Gibbs, FL
Donald, Ray (*)		WF	6-8	66	Pensacola Booker T. Wash, FL
Sura, Bob		WG	6-4	154	Wilkes-Barre GAR, PA


DUKE
====

Player			Pos	Height	Rank	Town/HS/St

Parks, Cherokee		C/BF	6-11	4	Huntington Beach Marina, CA
Meek, Erik		C	6-10	43	Escondido San Pasqual, CA
Blakeney, Kenny (r)	PG	6-4	--	Duke


NORTH CAROLINA
==============

Player			Pos	Height	Rank	Town/HS/St

Williams, Donald	WG/PG	6-3	8	Garner High, NC
Davis, Larry (f)	WG/PG	6-2	62	Denmark-Olar, SC
Landry, Pearce (w)	WG/PG	6-4	--	Greensboro Page High, NC

NCSU
====

Player			Pos	Height	Rank	Town/HS/St

Davis, Mark		WG/WF	6-5	89	Utica High, MS
McCuller, Lakista	PG/WG	6-3	93	Americus Sumter County, GA
Newman, Victor		BF/WF	6-7	99	Dothan Houston Acad, AL
Marshall, Curtis	WG/PG	5-11	118	Omaha Creighton Prep, NE
Watkins, Vince (w)	WF	6-6	--	Millbrook High, NC

MARYLAND
========

Player			Pos	Height	Rank	Town/HS/St

Rhodes, Johnny (*)	WG	6-5	45	Washington Dunbar High, DC
Soto, Geno (*)		BF	6-8	Top 150	Puerto Rico
Bristol, Wayne		WG/PG	6-2	--	Beltsville High Point, MD
Walsh, John		BF	6-8	--	St.Thomas More Academy, CT
Martin, Jesse (r)	WG/WF	6-5	--	Maryland
Kerwin, Chris (t)	C	7-0	--	Old Dominion University


WAKE FOREST
===========

Player			Pos	Height	Rank	Town/HS/St

Llewellyn, Cordell	WG	6-3	101	Maine Central Institute
Rasmussen, David	WG	6-7	Top 200	Ricks (ID) JC
Banks, Travis "Scooter"	WF	6-6	--	??, NC
    
17.1447 RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOBobHunt and the Henchmen, LIVE!Wed Jun 19 1991 20:081
    
17.1448We'll get 'em yet, right, men ???GOLDKY::HUNTI just want to help the ballclub ...Wed Jun 19 1991 20:4511
17.1449Keep that streak goin', SoupGOLDKY::HUNTI just want to help the ballclub ...Wed Jun 19 1991 22:1235
17.14501-1-1-1-1and 31...I wanna be sedated..RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOBobHunt and the Henchmen, LIVE!Wed Jun 19 1991 23:034
    Proud to be a Henchmen - just like the Ramones, I will rename myself
    for the ACC note:
    
    JD Henchman
17.1451clarification pleaseSTAR::YANKOWSKASP-name intentionally left blankThu Jun 20 1991 12:525
    On the recruiting summary posted in .1446, what does "rank" represent?
    (Rank compared to all recruits nationwide?)
    
    
    py
17.1452Good questionsRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jun 20 1991 12:5711
    re: .-1
    
    The Poop Sheet ranked the Top 200 Prep players.  In the case of JC
    players the science becomes less exact and, rather than give them a
    specific ranking, they simply rank them as "Top 5", "Top 100", etc.
    
    Also I think I forgot a code that I used.  (w) next to their name
    means they're being invited to tryout for the team as a walk-on.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1453AND THE DEFINITION IS...RAVEN1::OGLESBYFri Jun 21 1991 01:5032
     Hey guys, I just purchased the latest edition of Websters Dictionary
    and looked up the definition of the word Henchmen.
    
                  Guess what it said???
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
           Henchmen is slang for Weasels!!
    
     So, for all you non BLUE HEAVEN members and Hunt followers I only have
    this to say...
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Pop goes the WEASELS as the WEASEL goes pop!!!
    
    BIG "0"
    
17.1454CAM::WAYRuck till you puke...Fri Jun 21 1991 11:3717
henchman (pl. henchmen)  - n. a servant: an active supporter, often
                              political.


From the Old English "hengest", a horse, and MAN




The only WEASEL I see around here is the trouser weasel all of Dean's
supporters start petting every time Dean backs his hairy wazoo up to 
the porcelain recepticle and peenches out another SLOF(tm) in the
NCAA Big Games....


hth,
'Saw
17.1455BobHunt and the Weasels ... RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Jun 21 1991 11:4335
    re: .-1
    
    Haw haw haw!!!  Good 'un, "BIG O" (tm).  And a weasel is a "sneaky or
    deceitful person", according to *my* dictionary.  Haw haw haw,
    indeed!!!
    
    But back to some real news.  The ACC-Big East series pairings have
    been announced, and are as follows:
    
    Monday, Dec. 2, Hartford, CT
    ----------------------------
    #3 Wake Forest vs. UConn
    #7 NC State vs. Pitt
    
    Tuesday, Dec. 3, Atlanta, GA
    ----------------------------
    #6 Florida State vs. Syracuse
    #4 Georgia Tech vs. Villanova
    
    Wednesday, Dec. 4, East Rutherford, NJ
    --------------------------------------
    #8 Maryland vs. Providence
    #2 UNC vs. Seton Hall
    
    Thursday, Dec. 5, Greensboro, NC
    --------------------------------
    #5 Virginia vs. Georgetown
    #1 Duke vs. St. John's
    
    Boston College, Miami, and Clemson will be sitting out this year.
    Strange to see Georgetown & Syracuse at the 5 & 6 seeds.  Things are
    more 'normal' in the ACC, with Duke/UNC at the top of the heep.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1456The "Trouser Weasel" from Wayco Ind.!!KEPNUT::DIGGINSThirst N'Howl Roolz!Fri Jun 21 1991 12:047
    
    Thanks 'Saw! I just spit coffee all over the terminal in my lab!
    HA HA!!! Too funny!!
    
    
    
    Steve
17.1457Weasels ripped my flesh!SOFBAS::TRINWARDCareful Don't Step in DECrapFri Jun 21 1991 12:385
    I'm just glad I HAVEN'T goten my coffee yet...
    
    In stitches, 'Saw!
    
    - SteveT
17.1458not to mention the blonde for UConn on the benchAGNT99::CHILDSI'll meet you by the 3rd PyramidFri Jun 21 1991 12:4913
 So anyone else want to go to Hartford and put up with UConn's fan constant
 complaining? I do because I want to see Mr. Rodgers of Wake Forest in person.
 The kid is the total package and has POY written all over him if he stays
 until his senior year....It sickens me though to know I'll have to watch 
 another pathetic performace of coaching by Evans but college hoops is worth
 the return on invest even if there are some minor detractions...

 heck the cheerleaders alone are worth it...

 ;^)

 mike
17.1459SHALOT::MEDVIDthe addiction of duplicitiesFri Jun 21 1991 12:5112
    Hey Big Zero,
    
    I just looked up the verb "choke" in my dictionary and it described
    exactly what happened to Dean on March 30, 1991:
    
    "to lose one's composure and fail to perform effectively in a critical
    situation."
    
    I would assume that any updated dictionary would include Dean's picture
    next to that definition.
    
    	--dan'l
17.1460RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOBobHunt and the Henchmen, LIVE!Mon Jun 24 1991 15:5211
    Yesterday's Seattle Times had pocket capsules of potential draft picks
    for this year's NBA Draft.
    
    I was interested in this line about Rick Fox:
    
    "May flourish in NBA, like other UNC alums, once out from under the
    RESTRICTIVE system of Dean Smith."
    
    HAWHAWHAW
    
    JD
17.1461So?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jun 24 1991 19:044
    So what's your point JD?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1462Was true then; Truer than ever today ...SHALOT::HUNTDust. Wind. Dude.Mon Jun 24 1991 19:1511
17.1463Probably why I like college much better than the pros...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jun 24 1991 19:454
    Sorry, but I don't perceive this as a negative.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1464SMARTT::CHILDSI'll meet you by the 3rd PyramidMon Jun 24 1991 20:194
about 2 million bucks worths of negatives that I can think of....

mike
17.1465Attaboy, Soup, your reward awaits you nexted MarchSHALOT::HUNTDust. Wind. Dude.Mon Jun 24 1991 20:208
17.1466DECWET::METZGERHow about those M's?Mon Jun 24 1991 21:1919
It means that if SNuffy would let his mega talented players play basketball 
instead of 'deanchokemeisterball they might have one more than 1 champeenship
in 32 tries. 

It means he's holding players back from reaching their potential. Which is more
important than wins (right from your mouth).

It means he's restricting their ability to show the pro scouts what they can do.
( think he many more pro's he'd generate if he let them develop during their
years instead of stifling them)

It means he takes square pegs and hammers them into round holes with the end
result being a deformed peg and a lot of wood shavings (1-31 and counting)

It means pro scouts know exactly where Dean ranks on the list of coaches....



17.1467Can't see the nose in front of your faces ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jun 25 1991 12:0112
    Nice try folks, but consider that pro scouts give Dean grads extra
    credit for where they went to school.
    
    Oh and, BTW, approx. 6 years from now this evil System will make Dean
    Smith the winningest coach in Division 1A college basketball history.
    (He's averaged around 25 wins p/ year against what's consistently one
    of the toughest schedules in the nation.)
    
    Haw haw!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1468PSYCH 201: Surviving the System SHALOT::MEDVIDthe addiction of duplicitiesTue Jun 25 1991 12:1112
>    Oh and, BTW, approx. 6 years from now this evil System will make Dean
>    Smith the winningest coach in Division 1A college basketball history.
    
    I would think his players had something to do with this...in fact, I
    would say they had everything to do with this.
    
>    Nice try folks, but consider that pro scouts give Dean grads extra
>    credit for where they went to school.
    
    Why?  Does UNC have a better curriculum than other schools?  
    
    	--dan'l
17.1469Per N.C. state law, bring your own...NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Jun 25 1991 12:119
    
    > Oh and, BTW, approx. 6 years from now this evil System will make Dean
    > Smith the winningest coach in Division 1A college basketball history.
    
    Will they be holding a "Woodie Night" at the Dean Dome on this oh-so-
    glorious day?
    
    glenn
    
17.1470Gives me goose bumps just thinking about it!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jun 25 1991 12:258
    > Will they be holding a "Woodie Night" at the Dean Dome on this oh-so-
    > glorious day?
    
    Yup.  Hopefully we'll be playing Virginia too.  [The invitations to the
    party will, of course, read "BWOW". ;^)]
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1471Henchmen and their LEADER tried...SMARTT::CHILDSI want your pain untouched, unstainedTue Jun 25 1991 12:534
 great! atleast 6 more years of NCAA's choke to ram down your throat...

 mike
17.1472Gotta be awfully greedy to not be happy with this...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jun 25 1991 13:065
    If going 29-6, winning an ACC Championship, and making the Final 4 is
    your idea of a choke, I agree.  Bring on 6 more years of it!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1473CAM::WAYToonces, the Rugby Playing Cat....Tue Jun 25 1991 13:241
Boy, that General Lee syndrome is really rampant in here...
17.1474if it happened to UNC of course it's a chokeSMARTT::CHILDSI want your pain untouched, unstainedTue Jun 25 1991 13:317
 Considering that Duke won it all and UNC blasted them 3 weeks earlier you
 can't come up with any other resonable answer for this year's shortcomings
 than a choke...They gave them a cakewalk in the East. Kansas took care
 of both Indiana and Arkansas for them so choke is it....

 mike
17.1475Give Childs a promotion to 'Principle Weasel'RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jun 25 1991 13:4732
> if it happened to UNC of course it's a choke

Course.  This is the attitude of all of Hunt's weasels.  If it 
happened to UNC, STOP right there.  STOP applying logic.  STOP being 
objective.  STOP being rational.  It's a choke, plain and simple, and 
if you disagree you just got yerself ex-communicated from the band.  :^(
Sad part is Ketch has a legitimate gripe.  His team has gotten stomped
so many times by Carolina he's wearing a chip on his shoulder the size
of the iceburg that downed the Titanic.  Sadly though, like a cult
leader who's leading the masses astray, he's got you hooked along for
the ride, doing his Thypocritical (tm) work for him.  


> Considering that Duke won it all and UNC blasted them 3 weeks earlier you
> can't come up with any other resonable answer for this year's shortcomings
> than a choke...

Couldn't possibly be that we massively overachieved in the ACC finals
against Duke, now could it?  No, that was a "talent win", according to
your ringleader.  


> They gave them a cakewalk in the East. Kansas took care
> of both Indiana and Arkansas for them so choke is it....

Yes, a Kansas team that implements the exact same System that you 
gleefully labeled "antique" this week.  Good work Mike - you're really
earning your Weasel stripes, I'll say!  Haw haw haw!!!


- ACC Chris
    
17.1476oh boy I'm moving up the ladder already. I like this companySMARTT::CHILDSI want your pain untouched, unstainedTue Jun 25 1991 13:5814
>Yes, a Kansas team that implements the exact same System that you 
>gleefully labeled "antique" this week.  Good work Mike - you're really
>earning your Weasel stripes, I'll say!  Haw haw haw!!!


 A Kansas team that has taken that system added a few wrinkles to modernize
 it and a coach who made adjustments and substituted by game situation instead
 of an age long process that senior X gets more minutes than dominating
 freshman. So I guess my statement earlier this week should have read
 a decent system run by an ancient, classless, unable to keep time coach.
 My mistake so sorry....    

 mike
17.1477Gloves come off, amigoSHALOT::HUNTDust. Wind. Dude.Tue Jun 25 1991 15:1678
17.1478CAM::WAYToonces, the Rugby Playing Cat....Tue Jun 25 1991 15:287
Bob --

That was a masterful piece of logic, exposition, and writing there dude...

Most excellent.

'Saw
17.1479Another "W" for the almighty buck. :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jun 25 1991 15:3718
    Surprised nobody's mentioned the official news on next years ACC
    Tourney.  Against the wishes of the coaches, the ACC powers_that_be
    have decided on a Thursday night (7:00pm) game between the 8-9 seeds,
    thus preserving the traditional 8-team field, Friday/Saturday/Sunday
    format.
    
    Dean and the rest of the coaches preferred a format which would've had
    the 6-7-8-9 teams playing in a Thursday doubleheader, but this
    apparently displeased the fans (read: Big Contributors) cause it woulda
    meant either an extra day away from the golf course or missing a couple
    of games.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
    
    
17.1480Using logic when discussing Tar Heels not a BobHunt strengthRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jun 25 1991 15:4212
    re: .1478 (Saw)
    
    You must be buckin' for a promotion like fellow weasel M_Childs, eh?
    
    Sorry, but that's gotta be earned the old fashioned way, not by blatant
    boot_licking.  Now git in here and enter some Thypocritial (tm)
    falsehoods/lies, and we'll see what we can do!
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1481Snuff should stick to recruitingSHALOT::HUNTDust. Wind. Dude.Tue Jun 25 1991 16:2531
17.1482Who cares what treatment 6,7,8,9 get-- it's a big party anyway...NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Jun 25 1991 16:487
    If the big contributors are worried about their golf games, why don't
    they do the logical thing: scrap the the whole tourney and party the
    weekend away (on the regular season champ, of course...)!?!
    
    glenn
    
17.1483I just might boycott attending next year! ;^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jun 25 1991 17:4210
    > scrap the whole tourney and party the weekend away
    
    Why do that, when you can party the weekend away *AND* watch some great
    hoops?  Make no mistake about it, the ACC Tournament as we now know it
    is nothing more than a huge money-making affair for the ACC, courtesy
    of the rich and powerful.  Dean tried to add some integrity to the 
    affair but, as I said, the almight buck won out.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1484trying to replace JD as top HenchmanAGNT99::CHILDSI want your pain untouched, unstainedTue Jun 25 1991 17:466
Name the other coaches! I only remember the Snuffer pushing hard for the
6-7 teams to be in the thursday game. Bob has already pointed out the
reasons why the Snuffer would stoop so low...

me again
17.1485SHALOT::MEDVIDthe addiction of duplicitiesTue Jun 25 1991 17:564
>              -< I just might boycott attending next year!  ;^) >-
    
    Pepper will miss you, hotlegs.
    
17.1486NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Jun 25 1991 18:009
    
    > Dean tried to add some integrity to the 
    > affair but, as I said, the almight buck won out.
      
    Hahahahahahaha!  Did Dean or North Carolina stand to lose anything by
    addition of this "integrity"?
    
    glenn
                             
17.1487Dean bangs haid on wall for 32nd time...RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JODances with SheepTue Jun 25 1991 18:065
    Funny, when how the almighty buck won out, but it seems to be okay -
    atleast when Snuffer and ACK (TM) conference are the ones going for the
    bucks.  Other conferences, in the eyses (intentional spelling...) of
    ACKCriss are money grubbing, though..
    JD
17.1488CAM::WAYToonces, the Rugby Playing Cat....Tue Jun 25 1991 18:1119
|    You must be buckin' for a promotion like fellow weasel M_Childs, eh?
|    
|    Sorry, but that's gotta be earned the old fashioned way, not by blatant
|    boot_licking.  Now git in here and enter some Thypocritial (tm)
|    falsehoods/lies, and we'll see what we can do!

ACC Crispmeister --

	I wasn't bucking for promotion, or addressing the Star Hells at
	all.  I was simply reacting to what I thought was a masterful
	rebuttle of your points by Bob Hunt....

	
	When I get around to trashing Dean et al, you'll know it, because
	it too will be a fine masterful display of all the excitement and
	potential the English language has to offer....

hope this helps,
'Saw
17.1489Still more ...SHALOT::HUNTLambadas With LlamasTue Jun 25 1991 18:4245
 Hey, 'Saw, consider yourself promoted.   There's plenty of spotlight
 space for every member of this merry band.  Besides, we need some way
 cool bitchin' essays, dude.
 
 To Mike Childs ... Actually, believe it or not, Soup is correct.  The
 ACC coaches were 100% unanimous in their support for the ridiculous
 format that would have made 6-7-8-9 play and win four straight games
 to be the champ while the top seed got to sit out until Saturday and
 then scoop up two quick ones for the title.   Boggles the mind.  No
 doubt Snuff musta put some 'shrooms in their martinis or somethin'. 
 I'm glad that the clearer heads in the ACC prevailed and we've got
 the 8-9 format instead.   Although, as I said before, they're history
 now, too.   Better to have had them play off-site earlier in the
 week.
 
 Hey, Soup, that's a good one ... Dean wanted to inject some
 "integrity" into the tournament but lost out to the bankwads !!! 
 Whatta riot ... So, tell me how did this year's tournament *lack* in
 whatever you wanna call "integrity" ???   Is the Heels' title tainted
 as a result ???
 
 The 6-7-8-9 has not one ounce of integrity, whatever that is, over
 and above that of the 8-9 format.   The 6-7-8-9 format hoses *FOUR*
 teams and kisses the butt of one (guess who that usually is ???).  
 
 The 8-9 format starting on Thursday night only hoses *TWO* teams and
 it kisses no one's butt.   *THAT* is what Snuffy didn't like and
 *THAT* is what he got the rest of the sheep coaches to bleat
 alongside him.   Shameful.
 
 The money-grubbing argument is worthless, anyway.   It takes 8 games
 to eliminate 8 teams and leave one standing at the end of a 9-team
 league.   Whatever format they choose will have 8 tickets for 8
 games.   The cost is the same for either format.   The 8-9 format is
 the fairest.     The 8-9 on Thursday is not *THE* fairest but it's a
 helluva lot fairer than the bullsheet 6-7-8-9 and free ride for No. 1
 format.
 
 Besides, it's all a moot point anyway because the ACC Tournament is
 simply a bragging rights thing.   The ACC regular season is the chief
 determinant of NCAA Tournament admission.   Snuff seems to forget
 that every now and then.   Like when it was time to call for a zone
 inside the dome.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1490Underhanded yes, but right alsoANGLIN::KIRKMANBig date on September 14Tue Jun 25 1991 22:4112
    I have to admit that I agree with the coaches on the tournament
    structure.
    
    If the 6-7-8-9 teams don't have much chance, tough.  They should have
    won more games.  Why not eliminate the tournament all together and give
    them even less of a chance.  Or only invite the top 4 teams to the
    tourney.
    
    This of course does not mean that some coaches (Snuffy) don't have
    alterior motives - like padding your net.
    
    Commander Scott
17.1491MAXWEL::CHILDSI want your pain untouched, unstainedWed Jun 26 1991 11:5216
 Scott how can you say it's right? First and foremost a tournment is
 supposed to be for the FANS and then the bucks. I don't know if you've
 ever been to a tournement from start to finish but the most exciting
 thing as a fan I feel that can happen is to watch the underdog battle
 the odds and make it to the finals. Snuffy's idea quickly eliminates
 two potential underdogs instead of one. Yeah it's a good reward for the
 teams at the top but for the fans it sucks!

 Top teams are not going to loose merit points for failing in the tournment.
 After all hot unbeatable undenieable teams only come around once in while
 (unless of course they play UNC) and I think the committee goes out of it's
 way to award execellence over the long haul instead of the short. Case in
 point Georgetown, the Hoyas still ended up with a 15th seed due to their
 lackluster play this year instead of higher seed for reaching the Big East
 finals...
17.1492Just who *does* like this format?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jun 26 1991 12:2716
    re: .-1  (Principle Weasel M_Childs)
    
    Here's a couple of comments from folks formerly associated with the Big
    East (before getting promoted to the ACC), commenting on the 8 vs. 9
    Thursday game:
    
    Gary Williams, recalling his coaching days at BC:  "Even the
    cheerleaders didn't enjoy the game".
    
    Former UConn AD Todd Turner (now AD @ NC State):  "You play a game 
    before an empty house, and your reward is that you are sacrificed 
    to the No. 1 team the next night.  The coahces don't like it, the 
    players don't like it, and the media isn't interested in it."
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1493The worst playoff idea I've ever seen!!!TNPUBS::NAZZAROGet out another asterisk!Wed Jun 26 1991 12:2914
    The 6-7-8-9 format is the most unfair design I've ever seen!!!
    
    Not only does it royally screw four teams, but it throws an extra
    reward to the top seed - a quarterfinals bye!!!!  If five teams don't
    play in the preliminary round, and two advance, that leaves seven
    teams.  So, for the quarterfinals, the top seed would get a bye, the
    second and third place teams would play the two preliminary round
    survivors, and #4 and #5 seeds would meet.
    
    Why not just seed the top eight teams, and tell #9 "you finished in the
    cellar; you don't belong in the tournament" instead of copying the
    format of the lowly Big East?
    
    NAZZ
17.1494$$$ 1, Integrity 0. (Same old story ...)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jun 26 1991 12:5892
> The ACC coaches were 100% unanimous in their support for the ridiculous
> format that would have made 6-7-8-9 play and win four straight games
> to be the champ while the top seed got to sit out until Saturday and
> then scoop up two quick ones for the title.   

It's not "ridiculous".  If it were you wouldn't_a seen 100%
unanimous support among the coaches.  We're talking about a group of 
men who argued for hours and hours over the placement of the 3-point
line.  The difference of opinion was an inch or two.  


> I'm glad that the clearer heads in the ACC prevailed and we've got
> the 8-9 format instead.   

If the almighty dollar has a clear head I guess you're right, cause that's
the ONLY reason the 6-7-8-9 format won't be used.  


> Although, as I said before, they're history now, too.   Better to have 
> had them play off-site earlier in the week.

The off-site solution is bogus because it would've meant one team from
the league wouldn't have a team in the tourney.  Remember, the ACC
Tournament is as much a social event as it is a basketball tournament.
Playing off-sight would've meant one teams fans not getting to come to
the party.

 
> Hey, Soup, that's a good one ... Dean wanted to inject some
> "integrity" into the tournament but lost out to the bankwads !!! 
> Whatta riot ... So, tell me how did this year's tournament *lack* in
> whatever you wanna call "integrity" ???   Is the Heels' title tainted
> as a result ???

The Heels title is certainly not 'tainted', but it is not, IMO, as 
meaningful as the regular season crown would've been.  If the league
wants to continue to crown its "Champion" during an end-of-season
peak event, so be it.  But at least offer the regular season winner
some type of reward.

 
> The 6-7-8-9 has not one ounce of integrity, whatever that is, over
> and above that of the 8-9 format.   The 6-7-8-9 format hoses *FOUR*
> teams and kisses the butt of one (guess who that usually is ???).  

You're wrong.  While it's highly unlikely that a 6-7-8-9 team would win
the ACC it's equally probably that one or two of those teams could gain
an NCAA bid with one or two more victories.  It also lends greater
credence to the regular season, although the benefit would probably only
be meaningful for a team with a short bench that could use the extra
rest.
 

> The 8-9 format starting on Thursday night only hoses *TWO* teams and
> it kisses no one's butt.   *THAT* is what Snuffy didn't like and
> *THAT* is what he got the rest of the sheep coaches to bleat
> alongside him.   Shameful.

Who's butt is being kissed?  Doesn't every team in the ACC have an 
equal chance of winning the regular season?  Why shouldn't the best
team during the regular season get a break?  And if you think Dean
can "sheep" the other coaches into 100% agreement on something, you
don't understand college coaches very well, nor do you know much of
the history of bickering amongst them.  Also note that while the other
coaches respect Dean, there's no overwhelming love-lost for him.
(Not when he beats you upside the haid so often, both on the court
and on the recruiting trail.  No sir!)

 
> The money-grubbing argument is worthless, anyway.   

It certainly is not worthless.  Why do you think they went against
the coaches in the first place?  The ACC has the best Golden Goose
in college basketball - maybe even in all of college sports.  The
ACC Tournament is a guaranteed sell-out every year.  The powers-that-be
wanted to preserve the traditional format.  6-7-8-9 might upset the
apple cart.

 
> Besides, it's all a moot point anyway because the ACC Tournament is
> simply a bragging rights thing.   The ACC regular season is the chief
> determinant of NCAA Tournament admission.   

Oh really?  Then how come two of the past three years the ACC Tournament
winner has gotten a higher NCAA seed than the regular season winner?
Again you're wrong, but don't let it stop ya, not when you're so poetic
with the English language!  (Principle Weasel_wanna_be 1Way's words,
not mine.)


- ACC Chris
    
17.1495They moved to ACC where the competition is lessCHIEFF::CHILDSwe're chained...Wed Jun 26 1991 13:0318
 I enjoy the present format and so don't a few thousand others who show
 up for the thursday niter at MSG....It's like a primer to get you ready
 for the real action that starts with the four games on friday.

 Nazz I disagree. Just because you're number 9 why shouldn't you be allowed
 to attend? The difference between 8 and 9 can be as little as one game.
 Also we're talking about kids here who should be allowed to enjoy the
 tournment atmosphere and parties and comradierre etc. If'n we were playing
 for money than I say stay home number 9.

 I totally agree with your premise though about 6-7-8-9 which is exactally
 what ole choke-o-snuffy was hoping for. A bye one less chance to wear
 his fishbone....

 Gary Williams is a carpetbagger the AD I really know little about...

 mike
17.1496CAM::WAYToonces, the Rugby Playing Cat....Wed Jun 26 1991 13:0828
While I don't believe the Big East is lowly (in fact, what little hoops I
watch tends to be Big East) I do agree with Nazz...

If you finish in the bottom, you're in the bottom, your unlucky, you suck,
you stink, you're the pits, you're the dregs.  You don't deserve a shot
at the playoff tournament, in fact your players should be working in the
concessions for the tournaments, carrying the racks of beer up and down,
up and down the stadium stairs, building their bodies and character for the
crack at it the next year....


re the 6-7-8-9:

Old Snuffy just wanted a bye, one less game to play to hopefully forstall
the inevitable choke-a-rama, gag on the chicken bone, yuke-fest that
happens every time he gets to the later rounds of the big dance.

Like a greasy sweaty fat girl who's living her Cinderella fantasy, who
gets more and more nervous as the hour gets later, until untold miniature 
versions of Mount Vesuvius start sprouting on her pudgy sebacious cheeks, 
and the beaus of the ball can't stand to look at her anymore, Snuffy jitters
and jitters and jitters until he totally loses his cool, and wishing
for one cigarette to calm his shattered nerves, asks the questions whose
answer he knows full well : How much time...

Then Wham Bam, Thank You Sammy, The Snuffer is talking the Big Walk to
the Showers, a white athletic sock firmly engorged in his throat (to borrow
a line from SK) totally symbolic of his ultimate Choke-A-Rama.....
17.1497in the money grubbing Big East we have to buy them allCHIEFF::CHILDSwe're chained...Wed Jun 26 1991 13:118
 Also Chris the money has nothing so with which format they go by. Either
 way you'd be forced to buy the whole package of tickets anyways so it
 doesn't wash unless of course the ACC sells single game tickets. If they
 do what fools....

 mike

17.1498Let the weasel back-slapping begin!!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jun 26 1991 13:128
    re: .-1
    
    Was that the literary essay we've all been holdin' our breath for?
    If so, let me be the first to say "Great note!  Poetry, sheer poetry! 
    The best the English language has to offer!  Etc., etc., etc."
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1499Maintain the status quo was the key decision-makerRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jun 26 1991 13:1615
    > in the money grubbing Big East we have to buy them all
    
    In the money grubbing ACC we never even get a *chance* to buy them. 
    Absolutely NO Tourney tickets go for sale to the general public.  None. 
    Zilch.  Nada.
    
    It's a Golden Goose if there ever was one.  To even have a *chance* for
    a ticket you've gotta give gobs of money to your favorite school.
    (Actually a fairly complex formula is used by each school to tabulate
    points.  Points can be accrued in a variety of ways but, you guessed
    it, donations to the athletic department is the fastest way to build up
    your total.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1500amazing how many end up on the street though CHIEFF::CHILDSwe're chained...Wed Jun 26 1991 13:216
    
It's the same here Chris. I'm fortunate enough that my uncle has a few
extra bucks and donates to UCONN athletic fund. I get my tickets through
him.

mike
17.1501CorrectionSHALOT::MEDVIDBoogies With BeaversWed Jun 26 1991 13:3414
>    In the money grubbing ACC we never even get a *chance* to buy them. 
>    Absolutely NO Tourney tickets go for sale to the general public.  None. 
>    Zilch.  Nada.
    
    Actually, Chris, there were a little over 3,000 seats available to the
    public for the '91 tourney.  In fact, there were tickets available to
    the public even hours before the championship game.  I know because I
    almost went.
    
    I think that was one of the reasons for moving the ACC tourney to
    Charlotte...so they could sell tickets to Joe Basketballfan.
    
    	--dan'l
    
17.1502This surprises me ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jun 26 1991 13:4114
    > Actually, Chris, there were a little over 3,000 setas available
    > to the public for the '91 tourney.  In fact, there were tickets
    > available to the public even hours before the championship game.
    
    Really?  This kinda goes against what I observed this year.  Seemed to
    me there were an awful lot of people outside who were looking to buy
    tickets.  (And not having much luck either.)
    
    Where were the tickets being sold - at the Coliseum?  Again, I didn't
    see any ticket booths open or people standing in line to buy tickets.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.1503I will write no essay before its timeCAM::WAYToonces, the Rugby Playing Cat....Wed Jun 26 1991 14:1122
>    re: .-1
>    
>    Was that the literary essay we've all been holdin' our breath for?
>    If so, let me be the first to say "Great note!  Poetry, sheer poetry! 
>    The best the English language has to offer!  Etc., etc., etc."
>    
>    
>    - ACC Chris


Not by a longshot.  That was just a quick "shoot from the hip" exclamation.

I've been pretty busy lately, both in here and at home, so I haven't had
a chance to sit down, pull my reference materials together, yank out
my thesaurus and give it a real go.

Perhaps this weekend....

And besides Chris, you wouldn't want me to do anything less than my very
best 8^)

'Saw
17.1504RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOTwists with TurkeysWed Jun 26 1991 14:526
    The tourneys are all just money-grubbing exercises anyway.  What
    difference does it make - the toop 6 or 7 schools are guarenteed to
    make the NCAA tourney simply because they play in a big conference.
    The only thing it affects is seeding in the tourney...
    
    JD
17.1505More ...SHALOT::HUNTSwedish Bikini Team Fan ClubWed Jun 26 1991 14:5352
17.1506Tickets were for saleSHALOT::MEDVIDBoogies With BeaversWed Jun 26 1991 16:3316
>    Where were the tickets being sold - at the Coliseum?  Again, I didn't
>    see any ticket booths open or people standing in line to buy tickets.
    
    Tickets to the general public went on sale months before the tournament
    and sold out within hours.  On the news that Saturday evening, they
    announced that about 500 tickets for the championship game were for
    sale at the colesium up until 10:00 AM Sunday morning.  I called my
    then galpal Linda but she was too busy or else I would have rushed out
    and grabbed two (tickets).
    
    Glad I didn't since it was such a blowout and also since I had  blown
    about $75 at the Paper Doll that Saturday night...you remember that
    night, don't ya, Chris?  Ten of those dollars went toward you encounter
    with that lovely blond sparkplug.
    
    	--dan'l
17.1507Fans like to brag that their team won a fewANGLIN::KIRKMANEscanaba - summer only, PLEASEWed Jun 26 1991 23:0023
    My personal opinion is that the 6-7-8-9 format is the fairest to the
    TEAMS.  It's not like 4 teams suddenly wake up the day before the
    tournement and find that a lottery drawing gave them the short end of 
    the stick.  Each teams knows what the situation is before the start of
    the season.  The bottom teams had complete control over their own fate
    and dug the hole their standing in.
    
    I thought the point of a tournement is to select the best team. It may
    not be the best way of doing so, but that is it purpose.  If fan's
    entertainment is the ultimite goal, why don't we have the fans vote to
    determine the champion.  That would insure that the teams work for 
    entertaining games.
    
    There are 2 things I like about the 6-7-8-9 format: 1) It has a strong
    reward system for the regular season.  2) More teams have a chance to
    win games before being eliminated.  As many as 7 teams could posibbly
    win at least 1 games before losing.  And the odds are in favor of that
    happening.  
    
    I agree Snuffy is reacting to a tight collar, but even the coaches of
    tradition losers were in favor.
    
    Commander Scott
17.1508Was I having a nightmare?TNPUBS::MCCULLOUGHLindsey is a toddler now!Thu Jun 27 1991 11:429
"With the 24th pick in the 1991 NBA draft, the Boston Celtics choose Rick Fox 
from North Carolina"


AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



=Bob=
17.1509Dean molded Fox/Chilcutt into 1st rounders. Well done!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jun 27 1991 11:509
    Rick Fox ...  to the **CELTICS**!!!  Life is full of strange ironies to
    be sure, but this is too much.
    
    Congratuations, Boston!
    
    Proudly,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1510I'm holding "You and Dean" responsibleNAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Jun 27 1991 13:298
    
    > Rick Fox ...  to the **CELTICS**!!!  Life is full of strange ironies to
    > be sure, but this is too much.
    
    He better not turn out to be a stiff, Chris... ;-)
    
    glenn
    
17.1511Prosaic Justice?SOFBAS::TRINWARDWordsmith For Hire: (508) 870-0340Thu Jun 27 1991 13:296
    After all the slamming (esp. by fellow-Celtic fans) in this and other 
    Notes of UNC, Snuffy/Dean, Brick (tm) Fox, et al. -- it somehow seems
    only RIGHT that the Green would pick Fox, instead of whoever-else-was-
    available at the time... NOTHING IS AS IT SEEMS, OBVIOUSLY...!
    
    Steve, who_is_finally_forced_to_ask_what_"VDM"_stands_for??
17.1512Not to mention he's from UNC! 8^)WV3::DIGGINSThirst N'Howl Roolz!Thu Jun 27 1991 13:497
    
    And yet another stoopid Celts draft pick. What the hell they gonna
    do with 7 fowards and three gaurds? Stoopid.
    
    
    
    Steve
17.1513Fox will never get an objective review from this crew ...RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Jun 27 1991 14:1416
    re: .-1
    
    Fox is slated as a 2G, *not* a forward.
    
    
    re: Glenn
    
    No doubt the Rick Fox selection will result in lost disk space for
    years to come.  Every missed shot, bad game, and turnover will be
    reported in gruesome detail.  I, of course, will do my part to balance
    the equation by pointing out Rick's finer moments.
    
    Better get that NEXT/UNSEEN key warmed up folks ...   :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1514Soup's right, better get your keypad warmed upSHALOT::HUNTSwedish Bikini Team Fan ClubThu Jun 27 1991 14:1912
 Rick Fox goes 5-for-22 in his final collegiate game, a disastrous
 loss to an underdog Kansas team in the Final Four.
 
 Then he refuses to show up at any of the crucial NBA pre-draft camps.  
 No doubt his shot hadn't yet returned from the spring break it took
 in Indianapolis.
 
 Then the Boston Celtics draft him.
 
 There is a God.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1515NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Jun 27 1991 14:2713
 
    The response from just about everyone up here *except* ol' grinnin' Red
    and the Celtics is an overwhelming "Huh?"  Rarely, except in cases 
    like Michael Smith's, is a draft pick so openly panned the morning after 
    the draft.  If the kid comes to Boston right away, he may not want to 
    pick up any newspapers...
    
    The column in the Globe this morning is none too flattering of Dean 
    Smith, either.  They equate Fox's steady but unspectacular play to the
    personality and style of his mentor.
    
    glenn
    
17.1516No win/lose situationSHALOT::MEDVIDBoogies With BeaversThu Jun 27 1991 14:2811
    Hey you sorry excuses for Henchmen!  You're missing a great
    Dean-bashing oportunity!
    
    Rick Fox will be a great NBA player and Celtic because now he's out
    from under Smith's restrictive system.  
    
    This is a no lose situation for you guys.  If Fox sucks, it's because
    he's a DeanBoy.  If he's great, it's because he escaped from the
    system.   And we'll here the converse from Chris.
    
    	--dan'l
17.1517C'mon, Guys, my stitches...SOFBAS::TRINWARDWordsmith For Hire: (508) 870-0340Thu Jun 27 1991 14:4313
    >>  Hey you sorry excuses for Henchmen!  You're missing a great
    >>  Dean-bashing opportunity!
    
    >>  Rick Fox will be a great NBA player and Celtic because now he's out
    >>  from under Smith's restrictive system.
    
    >>  This is a no lose situation for you guys.  If Fox sucks, it's because
    
    God, I'm gonna MISS this stuff...!
    
    _ SteveT, one_more_day_to_go -- and I STILL haven't found out what
    "VDM" stands for...
    
17.1518With luck like this I oughta head to Vegas!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jun 27 1991 14:4519
    Funny how the the sports world has been so kind to me lately.
    Consider:
    
    o BobHunt and ACC Chris experience perfect bliss by falling into 
      a couple_a ACC Tickets, then are present in the same building while
      UNC defeats UVa in the semi's!
    
    o Rick Fox experiences big-time abuse from Celtics fans, then
      gets picked in the 1st round by "their" team!
    
    o JR Reid is selected 5th in the 1989 NBA draft by the Charlotte
      Hornets, setting the stage for the infamous "Contest".  Nothing 
      ironic in this except for the fact that Reid had to be picked in 
      the Top 5 and the contest prize was for a pair of tix to see Boston 
      play Charlotte!
    
    
    - ACC Chris  
    
17.1519Like a ski jump it isSHALOT::HUNTSwedish Bikini Team Fan ClubThu Jun 27 1991 15:0226
17.1520It's big, no doubt.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jun 27 1991 15:0710
    re: .-1
    
    If I had to offer one criticism of Dean Smith it would be that, yes, he
    does have a big nose.  It's even bigger when you see it up close and
    personal, like I did.  I was worried that my then_2_year_old was gonna
    blurt out one of those painfully honest comments that kids sometimes
    do about poor Deano's snoz.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1521Viva Las Soupas ??? :-) :-)SHALOT::HUNTSwedish Bikini Team Fan ClubThu Jun 27 1991 15:0811
17.1522FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu Jun 27 1991 15:1117
    Steve, VDM stands for Venus DeMilo.  As applied to Michael Smith of the
    Celtics, it's because he has short arms.  (for those of you who are
    uncultured cretins, Venus DeMilo is a statue that has no arms.  I'm not
    sure if the statue portion applies to Michael Smith as well).
    
    Those of you who are hard-core Carolina haters and Celtics rooters are
    experiencing the same sort of angst I went through when Doug Flutie was
    playing for the Patriots.  Not much fun, is it?  It's like you want him
    to do well but at the same time, the fact that he does well brings
    credit onto the school you most hate.
    
    Well, my problem was solved after the 1989 season.  I can just sort of
    kick back and watch this one.  While I don't particularly like
    Carolina, there's not the deep, burning hatred there like I have for
    another institute of higher learning.
    
    John
17.1523Celtic's selection of Fox VDMBASEX::BROWNThu Jun 27 1991 15:364
    
    I was under the impression that VDM meant very dumb move.
    
    phil
17.1524I'll give more consideration to the can't lose scenarioINTER::NAZZAROGet out another asterisk!Thu Jun 27 1991 15:4311
    VDM = Venus De Milo = Michael Smith
    
    Rick Fox is projected as a small forward by the Celtics, NOT
    a 2-guard, despite what ACC_Chris thinks.  I mean, really, Fox
    is too fat and slow to guard most small forwards, and you think he 
    can cover shooting guards, Chris????
    
    Seriously, the talk lasted night was of moving Gamble to back-up 2 
    guard, which of course would be a disaster.
    
    NAZZ
17.1525CARROL::LEFEBVREAspiring Fender BenderThu Jun 27 1991 15:571
    Ninj knows culchah!
17.1526It was his nose, wasn't it?SHALOT::MEDVIDBoogies With BeaversThu Jun 27 1991 16:207
>    It's even bigger when you see it up close and
>    personal, like I did.  I was worried that my then_2_year_old was gonna
>    blurt out one of those painfully honest comments that kids sometimes
>    do about poor Deano's snoz.
    
    You mean like, "Dad, why are you kissing that guy's great big nose?"
    
17.1527MCIS1::DHAMELSlam dances with slugs...YUCK!Thu Jun 27 1991 16:2211
    
    While visiting NY City lasted year, I met this Iranian guy who claimed
    he was an arms dealer.  Sold me both arms from the original Venus Di
    for under $100.  They're real too, 'cause he wrote me a genuine
    certificate of authenticity while I waited for the train.
    
    I expect I hosed him real good, as I'm sure I can get a nice return on
    my investment as soon as I contact Southeby's.
    
    Dickstah
    
17.1528NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Jun 27 1991 16:3815
    Hating either Fox or Flutie because of the schools they went to is
    irrational.  I sincerely hope the kid succeeds, and Chris is allowed to
    sport another woodie.  Who cares?  He's not playing for Smith, and
    there's no reason to connect what he does or doesn't do with the
    Celtics to his time with Smith.  What he did, or more accurately,
    didn't do under Smith is now a matter of complete record.  That chapter
    is finished.
    
    With that said, I still think the Celtics drafted a stiff.  Hey, with
    their drafts through most of the eighties, the Celts aren't above 
    criticism.
    
    glenn
    
17.1529Proof: Snuff had more NBA'ers than KansasSHALOT::HUNTSwedish Bikini Team Fan ClubThu Jun 27 1991 16:4514
 Lost in all the fanfare about lasted night's NBA draft is the
 observation that, yes, Snuff has done it again ...
 
 The Ol' Schnozola, the master recruiter and the master teacher, has
 once again placed two of his prime-time studs into the National
 Basketball Association in the first round of their draft.   Both Rick
 Fox and Pete Chilcutt were taken in the first round.
 
 Can you say "player talent wins" ???   I thought you could.
 Can you say "coach choked" ???   	I knew you could.
 
 And, heaven forbid we think of them as "hired guns", right ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1530Wish I could send this to Clifford Rozier :^(RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Jun 27 1991 18:1818
    Some of the weasels take the high road ("This proves that Dean had
    oh-so-much talent!) while others take the low road ("Fox sips big-time
    cause he played for Dean!"), but the net result is the same:  a
    Catch-22 for Carolina fans.  Dan'l already pointed this out, correctly
    mapping out the weasels strategy.  If Fox is a boom Dean shackled him
    in The System.  If Fox is a bust Dean doesn't develop NBA talent.
    
    Not surprisingly I see things differently.  I think Fox has maximized
    his talent and professional opportunities by playing at UNC.  He was
    drafted 24th overall, and there's no way in Hades he was a Top 25
    player coming out of HS.  Ditto for Chilcutt.  Picked 27th overall, he
    was slightly more regarded than Fox coming out of Alabama, yet clearly
    has overachieved on draft day because of his collegiate selection.
    
    Hats off to Dean!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1531Hey, how was Vegas ??SHALOT::HUNTSwedish Bikini Team Fan ClubThu Jun 27 1991 18:5410
17.1532Be, all that you can be. In the arrr-me!RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Jun 27 1991 19:257
    In other words, (to paraphrase the US Army), ...
    
    THEY'VE BECOME ALL THAT THEY CAN BE.
    
    HTH,
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1533Let's not jump too soon...?SOFBAS::TRINWARDWordsmith for Hire:(508) 870-0340Thu Jun 27 1991 19:2828
    RE: Rick Fox (at least he ain't Big, White and Slow?):
    
    Y'know, we might be overlooking something here, Guys:
    
    Drafting at #24, the Celts didn't figure to land anyone who could make
    an impact *this* year (they'll need to trade somehow to accomplish
    that?), and so were looking for that ole "po-tenshul"...
    
    Given that Fox has only played SIX years of basketball all-told (the
    fact that four of them were inside the Snuffmeister's Skinner-box
    may ormay not be an additional factor...?), and was still able to be
    competitive in a major-college program (even if it was, etc.)...
    
    Doesn't that indicate a real possibility that this guy might be worth
    the gamble (no pun intended)?  If they begin with a good defensive
    player, who has shown some shot-capability, and who may have the 
    tools (how do we know if he's only been at UNC?)...
    
    WHo knows what could happen...?
    
    All I know is, I wish I'd played earlier than soph-year in H.S., 'cause
    I was just beginning to hit my stride when it was time to pack it in...
    
    IOW, Take off the baby-blue filters and look at it objectively...
    
    - SteveT, who_thinks_we_might_be_a_bit_hasty_here
    
    
17.1534CAM::WAYToonces, the Rugby Playing Cat....Thu Jun 27 1991 19:297
I can see it now:

		Staff Sergeant Dean Retains the Hill....

hahahahahahahahaha,

'Saw
17.1535Another belt-high fastball ... thwackSHALOT::HUNTSwedish Bikini Team Fan ClubThu Jun 27 1991 19:515
17.1536Didn't stop the Deansketeers from takin' undue creditSHALOT::HUNTSwedish Bikini Team Fan ClubFri Jun 28 1991 03:2618
17.1537tell me from the bottom of your heart you can deny thatAGNT99::CHILDSsign said, Stay Away Fool..Fri Jun 28 1991 11:1916
 Chris this here Principal Weasel has never denied that Snuffy develops NBA
 talent. Heck half of the talent he recruits has NBA written on it coming
 out of HS. What this here weasel can't understand is why this Coach can't
 coach once they blow the whistle? Why he must play his seniors more than
 his freshman, sophs, and juniors. Why he can't keep track of the time? Why
 he and his bench must piss and moan on every call. Why he thinks he's above
 the game? Why he had the gall to allow them to name the building after himself? 

 My assumption is that it's a promise he makes to his kids during his recruiting
 that no matter what once they're seniors they will see the bulk of playing 
 time to maximize their marketability to the pros.

 and has been proven more than once this system of rewards is doomed to failure

 if he stays with Montross there's no way they loose that game to Kansas...
17.1538BobHunt and the WeaselsRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Jun 28 1991 16:51144
Like any organization, 'BobHunt and the Weasels' would not be complete
without, you guessed it, an org chart.  Now since they're somewhat
loosely formed at present I had to take some liberties, but overall I'd 
say this is fairly representatitive of how the organization stands today.

An analysis of the movers and shakers of the Weasels follows.

enjoy [:^(],

- ACC Chris


		WEASELS ORGANIZATION CHART
		==========================

			King Weasel		
			(Bob Hunt) 
			     |
			     |
			     |------------ Consultant Weasel Extraordinaire
			     |			     (MrT)
			     |			       |
			     |			       |
			     |		    Special Projects Weasel
			     |			     (Cap)
			     |
			     |
	    ---------------------------------------------------
	    |			        |	              |
     Principle Weasel in  	 Principle Weasel in	 Principle Weasel in
    Charge of Philosophy       Charge of Communications  Charge of Junk Notes
            JD               	     MChilds               MikeJN (honorary)
	     |				|	              |
 	     |				|	              |
             |-Senior Weasel		|-Senior Weasel       |- Senior Weasel
 	     |	(dan'l)			|    (TTom)           |   (Frank Way)
	     |				|	              |
             |-Senior Weasel		|-Senior Weasel       |- Senior Weasel
	     |	 (glenn)		|   (B_Adams)         |     (/Don)
	     |			 	|	              |
             |-Senior Weasel		|-Senior Weasel       |- Senior Weasel
 	     	(Ross)			     (Nazz)                 (Hawk)
					       |
					    Weasel
					   (JHendry)



BobHunt - The Godfather of the Weasels.  He's a fierce opponent, rarely 
	  conceding an inch on any point.  The man considers Dean an open 
	  wound, no doubt dating back to his UVa days, and he'll never pass 
	  on an opportunity to bash UNC/Dean.  If you're gonna be pro-UNC
	  in SPORTS, you'd better be prepared to battle 'Ketch', and 
	  you won't escape without some bloodshed.

MrT -     Not much really needs to be said about the legendary MorT.  His 
	  Dean/UNC bashing is legendary, not to mention his Thypocrisy (tm) 
	  and high degree of subjectivity.  Constantly thrashing out at 
	  Dean cause it highlights the moral woes of his idol, BobKnight.

Cap    -  Easily the most dangerous of all the weasels, even ecclipsing
	  the scary BobHunt.  He plays the role of the 'Hired Assassin',
	  swooping in occasionally for brutal UNC/Dean assaults.  

JD	- Heads up the Philosophical group of Tar Heel bashers.
	  These folk attempt to microscopically explore every angle 
	  of reasoning that might portray Dean/UNC in a bad light,
	  and then incorporate some slick writing to maximize their
	  impact.  Typically he and his subordinates don't need newspaper 
	  articles or long and boring statistics to 'prove' that UNC 
	  sips (though they'll gladly accept and endorse them when
	  available!).  Rather they kind of fly by the seat of their 
	  pants, applying a rather bizaare set of philosophical 'truths'
	  to 'prove' their case.

MChilds - Mike head up the 'Communications' department, which attempts
	  to seize on any piece of concrete information on UNC/Dean and
	  portray it in a negative light.  These folk don't concentrate
	  on fancy writing or anything, but beware!  They're relentless
	  in their pursuit, although of all the groups they're the most
	  likely to occasionally concede a point.  (Tend to be somewhat
	  more open-minded than the Philosophers, who clearly have an
	  axe to grind.)

MikeJN  - Mike of course is no longer with us, but he was and always will
	  be the 'King of the Junk Note'.  He was particularly adept
	  at UNC/Dean jabs, as are his followers.  These folk see no
	  need to 'prove' that UNC/Dean sip, they just accept it as fact
	  and go from there.

TTom -    The man who knows and understands Dean better than any of the
	  Weasels, he's dangerous on certain issues (because of his 
          knowledge of The System) but at the same time impotent (because
	  of his knowledge of The System).  It's almost as if he understands
	  Dean too well to ever become a Top Weasel.

dan'l -   A real up-and-comer.  Follows the script of King Weasel Hunt to
	  perfection.  Rumors persist that Ketch sends dan'l mail, who
	  then deletes the header and enters the note in SPORTS as 'his
	  own'.  Somewhat new to Tar Heel bashing, lending credence to
	  the notion that he's been brainwashed, but watch out for him
	  in the future!

Nazz -	  Made himself famous by losing The Contest, thereby setting the
	  stage for one of the greatest orgies of Tar Heel praise ever
	  seen on an electronic network!  Still hasn't fully recovered
 	  from the "L", and the recent Celtic 1st round draft selection
	  of Rick Fox probably set him back a year or two.

B_Adams - NC Skate fan with a Tar Heel axe to grind.  Legitimate ACC Fan
	  though, and that hurts his effectiveness.

JHendry - "O" Hendry wouldn't normally join up with an impartial band like
	  this (although he has shown strong emotional tendencies in areas
	  such as Boston College and beachballs) but he's never recovered
	  from his alma mater getting blown out by Dean and UNC in the
	  early 70's NIT.  Generally speaking though, he's strictly a 
 	  sideline Weasel, occasionally entering the fray for factual
	  correction (be they grammatical or sports-related).

1Way -	  Lack of college hoops knowledge has really hurt 'Saw, but when
	  your background is in junk noting this isn't that big a
	  negative.  Still, he cain't be considered a significant Weasel
	  player until he's cured of his 'Rugby-on-the-Brain' malady.

Ross -	  Has cut out quite a nice niche for himself in the area of James
	  Worthy-bashing.  Probably wrote his own epitaph for serious Weasel
	  advancement though by his famous poem that earned him 2nd place
	  during The Contest.

glenn -	  Heavy into the Philosphical aspects of SPORT, glenn is a major
	  player in the anti-UNC/Dean coalition.  However his recent zinger
	  against King Weasel Hunt over in the American League note (during
	  which he pointed out the utter hypocrisy of BobHunt praising
	  Tony LaRussa for his outstanding W-L record as a major league
	  manager) detracts from his impressive resume.
	  
Hawk - 	  Junk noter extraordinaire, he's probably in line to take over
	  MikeJN's slot.  

/Don -	  Another classic junk noter, famous for his one-line barbs.  Alas
	  though, a Final 4 Contest entry will always mark him as 'suspicious'
	  by fellow Weasels.
    
17.1539FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Fri Jun 28 1991 17:034
    And I haven't recovered from the 1987 Women's Soccer national title
    game yet either, Soup.
    
    John
17.1540Rollward!NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Jun 28 1991 17:061
    
17.1541AXIS::ROBICHAUDFri Jun 28 1991 17:104
    	Weasel org chart?  Heh, heh.  I laughed so hard that I smif'ed
    on my turkey sandwich...
    
    				/Don
17.1542There goes my lunch. :-)CSC32::GL_JOHNSONChile con carne!Fri Jun 28 1991 17:126
    .1538 has got to be the funniest note I've read all day.  :-)
    
    NoTY material no doubt.
    
    						
    						 glen j.
17.1543Gawd, I hate when you get me started like this!TNPUBS::NAZZARORick Fox: 1991's Michael Smith???Fri Jun 28 1991 17:1433
    Let me put it to you this way:  
    
    	1) I hate the South in general.
    
    	2) I hate North Carolina as a state.
    
    	3) I hate UNC in particular.
    
    	4) I hate their basketball program for a zillion reasons,
    	   but what initially sparked this hatred and has kept it
    	   boiling for over 20 years are three things:  the total
    	   lack of class shown in the 1970 UMass-UNC NIT game,
    	   the continuing practice of carpetbagging northern
    	   kids to play for the 'Heels, and Dean Smith, who is so
    	   overrated as a coach he makes John Thompson look
    	   underrated.
    
    	5) I hate recruiting more kids than you can play, then
    	   letting them fester on the bench when they could be
    	   playing at another school.
    
    	6) I hate underutilizing talent.
    
    	7) I hate substituting just for the sake of substituting.
    
    	8) I hate having an arena named for a somewhat living person.
    
    	9) I hate a college having an arena a zillion times better
    	   than the dump in which the local pro team plays.
    
    I gotta stop now and take a valium.
    
    NAZZ
17.1544hawhawRIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOJelly Roll MortonFri Jun 28 1991 17:409
    Gotsta admit that I've got some tears in my eyes.  Seriously rollward
    on that note there, ACKcrisp.  ANd thanks, had no idea I was that far
    up on the Weasel list.
    
    JD Weasel Henchman, Ministry of Philosophy (don't call me Bruce)
    
    PS:  Doesn't my ode to Dean in the Contest shed any bad light....
    
    
17.1545Outstanding, Chris !!!SHALOT::HUNTSwedish Bikini Team Fan ClubFri Jun 28 1991 17:4744
 A masterpiece, Soup.   One of your best efforts ever.
 
 Two points of clarification ...
 
 1) I do *NOT* spoon feed Daniel Medvid.   
 
 The young lad is extremely well-educated in the literary arts so
 there's no way I'd ever write "for" him.   Also, he's lived in
 Charlotte longer than I have.   He started hating the Tar Heels
 before I ever got here.   I would think it's fair to say, though,
 that Dan'l has met very few others who loathe the Heels to the extent
 I do.
 
 I've only given him one "assist" that I can recall.   A few months
 ago, you made the mistake of claiming that 9-Mar-1991 was one of your
 most memorable days.   Everyone knew that you were talking about
 Carolina's ACC win over the Wahoos but I gave Dan'l an offline nudge
 to put a note in to remind you that you also had your infamous
 encounter with "Pepper" on that very day.
 
 He took the "assist" and converted it into a vicious, 360,
 rock-the-baby, slam dunk.    The rim was quivering ... So were you
 after "Pepper" ... oh, never mind ... :-) :-)
 
 2) Regarding Tony LaRussa ... 
 
 I just recently finished reading George Will's book "Men At Work". 
 Will is extremely impressed with La Russa and gives him a lot of
 credit for his overall won-loss record with both the Chisox and the
 A's.   I do believe that La Russa's W-L record is significant for two
 reasons ... 
 
 a) They play 162 baseball games a year, not 35 like college hoops and
 
 b) Baseball games are often won by the most miniscule events, both
    physical and mental, and La Russa is a master of the mental aspects
    of "little ball" despite all the A's sluggers.
 
 La Russa willingly admits to being outcoached by Lasorda in the 1988
 World Series.  That's something Dean *NEVER* does.  He can't because
 his entire fragile house of cards comes tumbling down if he ever
 does.  And the Baby Blue Faithful know this only too well.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1546Snuff this, Dude!SOFBAS::TRINWARDWordsmith for Hire:(508) 870-0340Fri Jun 28 1991 18:048
    Magnifique, Christophe!
    
    I put that in the class of "Murders... (Poe)" and Bob's minor-league
    monograph, among the ones I've seen so far -- classic work, Man!
    
    Gawd, I'm gonna miss this bunch!
    
    - SteveT, a_rookie_at_most_of_this_but_often_a_Weaselet_anyway
17.1547CAM::WAYToonces, the Rugby Playing Cat....Fri Jun 28 1991 18:5015
ACC Chris --


That was a superb and highly entertaining work that you entered.  I just
read it after a long meeting, and believe me, it's just what I need to
get the  weekend going!  Too funny.

And thanks for the Senior Title.  I can't *buy* the damn thing in this
engr group, but hell, I'll take it as a Weasel any day!

Best note you've ever written, (on the humor scale anyway!!!!!)


Congrats!
'Saw
17.1548Give credit where it's dueTNPUBS::NAZZARORick Fox: 1991's Michael Smith???Fri Jun 28 1991 19:133
    Best note he's ever written on any scale, IMNSHO.
    
    NAZZ
17.1549DUGROS::ROSSMama said knock you outFri Jun 28 1991 19:2522
Chokes R' Us, Inc.  Organizational Chart


                               Dean Smith, CEO
                                      |
                                      |
                 +------>------ Chris Knorr, ----->------+
                 |             Sr. Apologist             |
                 | THESYSTEMTHESYSTEMTHESYSTEMTHESYSTEM  |
                 | THESYSTEMTHESYSTEMTHESYSTEMTHESYSTEM  |
                 ^ THESYSTEMTHESYSTEMTHESYSTEMTHESYSTEM  V
                 | THESYSTEMTHESYSTEMTHESYSTEMTHESYSTEM  |
                 | THESYSTEMTHESYSTEMTHESYSTEMTHESYSTEM  |
                 |                                       |
                 +-------<----- Dan Schneider,-----<-----+
                               Sr. Obfuscator


     +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
     | Key:   Follow arrows in jerking manner;  Repeat ad infinitum;   |
     +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
17.1550RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOJelly Roll MortonFri Jun 28 1991 19:293
    Doug -  Too funny...haw haw
    
    JD
17.1551Just when wwe thought it was safe...SOFBAS::TRINWARDWordsmith for Hire:(508) 870-0340Fri Jun 28 1991 19:384
    Doug - high marks for quickness and originality, although ACC(X-t) (tm)
    (aka "the AntiChris?" ;^}) still wins a clear decision on overall pts.
    
    - Steve, fading_fast_as_we_speak
17.1552Woulda brought the network down, humbly speaking ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Jun 28 1991 19:478
    While I appreciate all the "Best note you've ever written" comments, I
    cain't agree.  I've written plenty better, especially those of a
    pro-Carolina nature.
    
    Imagine, though, if I'd been able to enter my own contest!!!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1553BOSOX::TIMMONSI'm a Pepere!Mon Jul 01 1991 09:598
    Soup, I won't say it's the best you've ever written, but I will say
    it's probably one of the most original notes I've ever read, and one of
    the funniest, too!  
    
    Congrats.  This note most definitely deserves rocognition for NOTE of
    THE YEAR, if we ever come up with such an award.
    
    lEe
17.1554FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Mon Jul 01 1991 11:424
    Except for the fact that he used the wrong version of princip*AL* it
    was fine.  :-)  Seriously, Soup, I did enjoy it.
    
    John
17.1555In regard to last week's "twangy" accusation...SHALOT::MEDVIDkiss them for meMon Jul 01 1991 12:476
    For the record, the NCAA published a naughty conference report Friday. 
    The PAC-10 and SEC were tied for first with 29 violations (all sports)
    each of the past few decades.  Those twangy accents sure must sound
    funny in California.
    
    	--dan'l
17.1556As I suspected: the facts speak otherwise.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jul 01 1991 12:5720
    re: .-1
    
    Heh heh!  Sick 'em, dan'l!!  (We'll make an ACC Fain outa you yet ...)
    
    Probably bad timing on my part, but it appears UVa is far from out of
    the woods regarding their loan scandel.  [Calling it a "scandel" at
    this point is admittedly premature, but better to error on the side
    that makes Virginia look the worst.  :^)]
    
    Anyways we probably won't know the extent of the damage until the fall. 
    The crux of the issue is whether or not the Virginia Athletic
    Department was giving athletes preferential treatment for certain types
    of loans.  Giving the loans is not in-and-of-itself wrong, however, if
    loans weren't available to Joe Student (i.e. non-athlete), *BINGO*,
    NCAA Violation.  (And not a trivial one, either, although one would
    think Virginia's relative pristine reputation would avoid any serious 
    damage ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1557Not good, not good at allSHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Mon Jul 01 1991 13:3052
17.1558had to come out sooner or later...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMrT: SPORTS' Objective AnalystMon Jul 01 1991 13:515
    One wondered how UVA's (badly overrated cupcake-munching) football
    program went form trash to treasure so quickly.  As is always the case,
    now the cash trail is revealed.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1559Like a fly on ...SHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Mon Jul 01 1991 14:069
 Very few, if any, of the Virginia football players are involved in
 this loan investigation.
 
 Nice to know that you'll still come climb out from under your rock
 long enough to bless us with yet more of your "insight" on these
 matters.   I was beginning to think you had gotten soft on us.   Nice
 to know I wasn't disappointed.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1560ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMrT: SPORTS' Objective AnalystMon Jul 01 1991 14:509
    Oh, don't be such a sensitive guy.  Everybody has a sleazy skeleton
    in his/her closet to shudder in mortified eye-averting shame over.
    (Wail, almost everybody.  I looked in *my* closet recently and it was
    a_empty one except for stacks a accurate records and sports equipage.)
    
    Don't be so defensive, Bob.  That UVA is turning out to be more like
    UNLV than Duke does NOT reflect on you personally!
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1561What could I have been thinking ???SHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Mon Jul 01 1991 15:054
 That's right, I forgot.   How silly of me.   I forgot that you
 *NEVER* indulge in personal attacks.  Mea culpa.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1562ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMrT: SPORTS' Objective AnalystMon Jul 01 1991 15:4120
    What kind a bilious-bull are you spouting now, Mr. UVAlum?
    
    I came in and commented on the UVA scandal (or, as ACCrook would
    have it, "scandel").  You respond with a cheep body shot on poor
    MrT.  I come back in proffering a branch of peace.  Then *you*
    come back in all moany woany about how *I'd* allegedly indulged
    in some personal attack!
    
    Your dirty personal attack hurts me, Bob.  The only positive I cain
    take out a this is that it puts the lie to ACCrisp's awful organization
    chart.
    
    Take the bad with the good, Bob.  Mellow out.  Cheel.  I'm tempted to
    say I'm-OK-You're-OK, but I'm not so sure about you what with this 
    vicious personal assault.  
    
    Were you at that basketball game/riot in Carolina last year?  Was that
    you bounding about pugnaciously, fists pumping, before the video camera? 
     
    MrT
17.1563Good to have you backSHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Mon Jul 01 1991 15:533
 Welcome back, T.   We missed you.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1564ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMrT: SPORTS' Objective AnalystMon Jul 01 1991 16:017
    Why... thank you, Bob.  My therapist said that if I just reached out
    to people, opened myself up more, and be a little more assertive that
    the love would flow.  
    
    I love you, Bob.  Do you love me too?
    
    MrT
17.1565I shot an arrow in the air; where it landed ...SHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Mon Jul 01 1991 16:045
17.1566Let's rename 17 to the 'Bash UNC' note. :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jul 01 1991 16:2810
    > Hey, how 'bout 'dem Heels ???
    
    Ah yes, when your back's to the wall, throw up the white flag of
    surrender and find common ground.
    
    Blah.  Nothin' worse than backing down from a fight in SPORTS. 
    Nothin'.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1567You ain't much of a poker player, is ya, Soup ???SHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Mon Jul 01 1991 16:468
17.1568ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMrT: SPORTS' Objective AnalystMon Jul 01 1991 18:5011
    >Nothin' worse than backing down from a fight in SPORTS.
    
    O, ACCaught.  In that ca why not finallquit evading the question
    of 1-for-33 versus all those H.S. All-Americas and star-studded NBA 
    talent?  Al, why not finally explain the stupid oversubstitutions
    against the Jayhawks and the fack that ol' Snuffer quit on his squad
    crunch time in a Final Four clash?
    
    We're waiting (but not withouskepticism)...
    
    MrT
17.1569If only I could discover the noting equivalent to the A-bomb!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jul 01 1991 19:0612
    re: .-1
    
    There's a fundamental difference between being a pacifist
    (BobHunt-style) and an agressor who just can't force the opposition to
    recognize defeat.  Kinda like the Japanese in WWII who, despite the fact
    that defeat was obvious at every hand, still required the A-bomb to
    convince them to capitulate.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1570DUGROS::ROSSMama said knock you outMon Jul 01 1991 19:094
>              <<< Note 17.1569 by RHETT::KNORR "Carolina Blue" >>>
>       -< If only I could discover the noting equivalent to the A-bomb! >-

	Put in another glowing Dean tribute...
17.1571ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMrT: SPORTS' Objective AnalystMon Jul 01 1991 19:197
    re 1569
    
    Translated: ACCaught sez, "I back down from this gauntlet.  I am
    wrong and I know it and I'm chicken to boo  Fried chicken, that
    is, Carolina style.
    
    MrT
17.1572When it comes to obfuscation, MorT is (Don)King!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jul 01 1991 19:406
    That's some kinda translater you got working, T.  (Quite different than
    the one I had to use to make sense_a yer notes.  Dialed in from home
    again, eh?!)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1573RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOI'll give you my Prime TimeTue Jul 02 1991 14:5713
    Here's something for Dean fans:
    
    "Charlotte offered J.R. Reid (and not Kenny Gattison) and Dell Curry to
    the Hawks fro Stacey Augman, but former Hornets assistant Ed Badger put
    the knock on Reid.  He's not alone.  Tar Heels coach Dean Smith has so
    little empathy for Reid, he refused to talk  to him about problems he's
    experiencing in Charlotte."
    
    What's that?  Dean turning his back on one of his ex-players?  I
    thought he loved his players and vice-versa.  Or is only the guys who
    become stars?  
    
    JD
17.1574We love JR, but sometimes ya gotta have 'tough love'RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jul 02 1991 15:5814
    re: .-1
    
    Hmm.  No doubt me and Dean are on the same page with this one.  [As
    usual. :^)]
    
    JR's a spoiled brat who needs to grow up.  Dean's cut him every break
    in the book, worked with him, helped him, encouraged him, etc. 
    Nothing's worked, so now he's letting it be known that he considers him
    a major disapointment whose let down the entire Carolina community.  
    
    Good work, Dean.  Hope something *finally* helps ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1575Gene vs DeanHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowTue Jul 02 1991 16:4310
JR is following the advice of his current coach, Gene Littles. He's
attending a summer camp for big-boys. However, while he's doing this, he
isn't attending summer school, leaving him 6 or so credits left. 

>    a major disapointment whose let down the entire Carolina community.  

Knowing this makes me like JR that much more. Anybody who can bother all
the Tar Heels can't be all bad.

TTom
17.1576Like the sun rising in the East, Soup praises SnuffSHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Tue Jul 02 1991 17:0037
17.1577Internal power struggle....RAVEN1::OGLESBYMon Jul 08 1991 23:3413
        Rumor is that Mr."T" doesn't like playing second fiddle
    to no one including you Mr.Hunt,so watch your back.Could we
    have a new Head Weasel in the weeks to come? More news at 11.
    
    
    
    
    ACC Chris RE.1538 is the best non Pro N.C. article of the year.
    It shows not only do you have great sports knowledge but also
    an equally as great sense of humor.
    
    
        BIG "O"
17.15781 more to boot!~RAVEN1::B_ADAMSPocono again?Tue Jul 09 1991 01:409
17.1579ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewTue Jul 09 1991 14:2415
    >Rumor is that Mr. "T" doesn't like playing second fiddle
    >to no one including you Mr.Hunt,so watch your back.Could we
    >have a new Head Weasel in the weeks to come?
    
    So now the Snuffer crowd is stooping to agitprop?  No way aim
    I unhappy with my role as Cheif Consultant to Bob Hunt.  We
    have plowed a lotta ground on the Smith Fraud over the past 
    coupla years... but have only scratched the surface.  Bob is our
    natural leader.  After all, he lives down there and cain smell 
    the stench of self-delusion every day.  
    
    Btw, Big "O", musta hurt to've been left off a Doug's org chart.
    But, mebbe that happened cuz you're actually ACChris !!
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1580FSOA::JRODOPOULOSIntl. Business SupportTue Jul 09 1991 15:589
    ACC Chris,
    
    Please put me down as an "inspiring weasel" since I did not make the
    list , but agree with all the comments regarding Dean's annual choking
    displays.  Damn, I got to find more time to join all the Dean-bashing.
    
    Weasel-to-be,
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
17.1581Yo, you are ONANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYChris Knorr, RIPWed Jul 10 1991 01:4710
    >Damn, I got to find more time to join all the Dean-bashing.
    
    You really should, Cowboy.  And seniority plays no role amongst
    us Antis.  We simply seek that the unvarnished Truth be held up
    to the glaring light a unflinching examinatin is all.  Any morsels
    a perspecitve you cain contribute weal be much appreciated.
    
    Big10 Tom
    
    
17.1583FSOA::JRODOPOULOSIntl. Business SupportWed Jul 10 1991 17:446
    Hawk,
    
    Much obliged, but in all fairness to the other weasels I will start at
    the bottom and work my way up the ladder.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
17.1584would that be Snuffy or Sniles?ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewThu Jul 11 1991 17:107
    Why are you co-Weasels talking org chart?  Addled by all the
    "reshaping" going down right now?  Lookit, forget the grey 
    flannel suit jive; we're a GANG.
    
    MrT 
    
    ps, have you had you Snuff today?
17.1585CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchThu Jul 11 1991 17:1312
From what I've been hearing and seeing, I'm beginning to think that life
at DEC closely parallels the life of a Carolina Blew hoops player.

You come in talent-laden, eager to excel.  You get stuff into a SYSTEM
that holds the best of the talent down and give plenty of pt to the
Seniors (ie promoting the dead wood instead of firing), and finally
in the biggest game of all, it's choke city.....

How's that for a dose of Snuffy, The Snuffmeister, Snuffarino.......


'Saw
17.1586Hitting the nail right on the proverbial head!TNPUBS::NAZZAROIf you want to be the man ...Thu Jul 11 1991 17:483
    GREAT analogy, Saw - unfortunately.  ;-(
    
    NAZZ
17.1587CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchThu Jul 11 1991 18:1516
Yeah, unfortunately is the key word.

Well, maybe things will brighten up, and we'll become the company we once
were.  Maybe management will realize that people need to be led, not managed
and that having a job here is not for the purpose of covering one's big
old hairy butt, but for going out, taking a chance and making money...

Yeah, and maybe a bunch of space aliens will land in my back yard tonight,
and leave me 12 cases of Jack Daniels, a new Ferrari, a Lear Jet, 
and 5 billion dollars....all tax free......


And as for being a weasel, I'm DAMN proud!


'Saw
17.1588Maybe Dean oughta take over Digital!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jul 11 1991 18:408
    Speaking from the bottom of my heart I could only wish that Digital
    (in its present form) could approach the success of Carolina
    basketball.
    
    I'd rate DEC approximately equal to the hoops program of, say, Kentucky
    of a few years ago, or the present-day UNLV program.
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1589Maybe Ken (& his integrity) should take over the HeelsSHALOT::MEDVIDBack to the Heavyweight JamThu Jul 11 1991 18:5616
    No, UNC hoops under Dean is better than Digital under Olsen. For 30+
    years, Digital has been trying to be #1 but never has been.  For 30+
    years, Dean has been trying to lead UNC to #1 and did it...
    
    
    
    once...
    
    
    
    and that once is the equivelant of IBM handing Digital a couple million
    dollars the day before the fiscal year ends.
    
    Hop hip holps.
    
    	--dan'l
17.1590keep on keeping onHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowThu Jul 11 1991 18:576
If Dean takes over DEC, you can be sure that it would lose the big game
to the likes of Unisys, Data General and Wang. We'd make budget the first
3 quarters and Dean would get ejected from the Open System Foundation and
walk off the court, leaving the rest of the company to lose the year.

TTom
17.1591CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchThu Jul 11 1991 19:0011
Well, you have to admit that in the closed system in which the analogy
operates (ie those points I mentioned) it's damned true...

I've see more dweebs, dorks, goons and doofuses go up the ladder here
because they talk a good game, use the right buzzwords, and sell lots
of snake-oil, and too many good, talented hard working folks stay in
the trenches.

Oh well.....

'Saw
17.1592AXIS::ROBICHAUDThe Few, The Proud, The Weasel Gang!Thu Jul 11 1991 19:052
    
    
17.1593CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchThu Jul 11 1991 19:2727
(to the tune of the Marine's Hymn)

From the north in Minnesota to the south in old NC,
we will fight our sacred battle against Snuff and UNC.
First we'll tell you how the Snuffer chokes, 
and how he'll soon be 1-for 33,
Yes we're proud to claim the titles of 
Weasels Against UNC.

From the arenas in the ACC, to the backcourts of our whole country
we will carry on the struggle, to make Star Heels fans free.
Free from Snuffy and his system, free from quitting by getting a T,
Yes we're proud to claim the title of 
Weasels Against UNC.

When the lights go down and the battle's done, 
and the fans have all gone home.
When the Star Heels have choked yet again, we will know our works been done.
We'll have ragged on Rev Snuffy Smith, till everyone knows we're right.
Then we'll go enjoy a beer or two, and watch a COACH like good Bob Knight.

One day there'll be a monument for us Weasels all one.
They'll sing songs and write great epic poems, for the
mighty job we've done.
We will live in US history, our names on every tongue,
We are the Mighty Weasels, Weasels we are ONE!
17.1594It Makes a Fellow Proud to be a WeaselFSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu Jul 11 1991 19:291
    
17.1595Consistent Excellence is a Carolina trademarkRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jul 11 1991 19:3511
    re: TTom
    
    Funny to see a true System watcher like yerself make such a_bad
    analogy.  Given our 11-straight years in the Sweet 16 (a record) 
    I'd think it'd be more appropriate to say we'd consistently beat Wang,
    Unisys, and HP, but lose in the finals to IBM.  
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1596Ney, it is you sirHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowThu Jul 11 1991 19:449
In the analogy, if DEC loses to IBM, no one would be complaining. 

But No Carolina does not lose to the number 1. If every year they went to
the finals and lost to number 1, it would be a different story. But
Kansas ain't no IBM, at least not last year when Dean choked. Dean does
not consistently beat the Wangers or the Unisissies. That's where they
choke.

TTom
17.1597Weasel news...RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWouldn't u like 2 be a Weasel too..Thu Jul 11 1991 21:3018
    Re-
    
    	Great tune...
    
    On the sports side of town....the ACC placed 4 players on the World
    University squad for the games coming up on July 15-24 at Sheffield
    Eng.
    
    	The team members are...Eric Anderson(Ind) Alexander Blackwell(Monm)
    Calbert Chaney(Ind) Josh Grant(Utah) Ervin Johnson(N.Orl) Adonis
    Johnson(Kan) Sean Miller(Pitt) Luther Wright(S.Hall)  Rodney
    Rogers(W.F.) George Lynch(UNC) Hubert Davis(UNC) and Bobby Hurley(Duke)
    
    Head Coach is P.J. Carlesimo with assistance from Ray Williams(Kan)
    Pete Gillen(Xavier) and Herb Kenny(Conn Wesleyan)
    
    B.A_who_likes_being_a_weasel_against_UNC!
    
17.1598Actually, Dean's more of_a IBM typeRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Jul 12 1991 11:418
    > Dean does not consistently beat the Wangers or the Unisissies
    
    Hmm.  Wonder how many of the men who've coached against Dean would
    agree with you.  To date he's consistently beaten just about everybody
    he's ever coached against.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1599Need volunteers for scientific study, all applicants welcomeNAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Jul 12 1991 12:4524
    I got a sincere question for ACChris and any other Hare Smithnas, if 
    they're out there, an honest answer to which I'd appreciate in exchange 
    for an honest confession from myself.
    
    First, from me: I believe that Dean Smith is one a the greatest college
    basketball coaches of all time.  Period.  No explanation or
    qualification needed.
    
    Now, for them:  Have any of you Dean-followers *ever* broken out of 
    the trance-inducing grip of the Reverend, even in just a brief moment 
    of unfaithfulness, like say after one a them heart-shredding Excellent
    Losses, and shouted out in agony (even if no one could hear your pleas
    for help and gotten the healing process started): "Oh my God, Snuffer,
    you've choked one down *this* time like never before!"
     
    Mind you, this wouldn't reflect on *you* personally, as we're talking
    only about a moment of temporary infidelity.  The question and your 
    answer are only being examined for purely scientific, clinical purposes, 
    no value judgements made, and will be kept within the strictest
    confidentiality of this notesfile...
    
    glenn
    
17.1600Dean beating his Wanger all by his UnisysSHALOT::MEDVIDBack to the Heavyweight JamFri Jul 12 1991 13:309
>    Wonder how many of the men who've coached against Dean would
>    agree with you.  To date he's consistently beaten just about everybody
>    he's ever coached against.
    
    I believe TTom was talking about when it counts...being handed the
    championship trophey at the end of the season...not just posting the
    numbers to keep his job.
    
    	--dan'l
17.1601Rev Smif leads DEC to excellent loss to Stratus - news itemTNPUBS::NAZZAROIf you want to be the man ...Fri Jul 12 1991 13:5612
    While 'tis true that the Snuffster has "consistently beaten just
    about everybody he's ever coached against" ACC_Chris, that only
    means he's been coaching a long time.  He's also lost to just
    about everybody he's ever coached against.  Your point is pointless.
    
    As for ol' Dean-o heading up DEC, we'd never go up against IBM.
    The Rev would avoid #1, look for an easier opponent, then take
    yet another memorable excellent loss.
    
    And that's a fack!
    
    NAZZ
17.1602Nicely done, GlennSHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Fri Jul 12 1991 13:5633
17.1603One more try at objectivity (KingWeasel already agreed,BTW)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Jul 12 1991 14:0848
> First, from me: I believe that Dean Smith is one a the greatest college
> basketball coaches of all time.  Period.  No explanation or
> qualification needed.

Ah, main, that comment is as freshing as a cool breeze and a cold brew
in the middle of a typically hazy, hot, and humid Hotlanta summer
afternoon.  Tanks, but I worry about you glenn.  Worry about what
happens to a weasel when he 'breaks rank' and makes such a startling
confession.  I'd be careful if I were you, and watch your backside!

    
> Now, for them:  Have any of you Dean-followers *ever* broken out of 
> the trance-inducing grip of the Reverend, even in just a brief moment 
> of unfaithfulness, like say after one a them heart-shredding Excellent
> Losses, and shouted out in agony (even if no one could hear your pleas
> for help and gotten the healing process started): "Oh my God, Snuffer,
> you've choked one down *this* time like never before!"

If the question is whether or not I've ever second-guessed Dean, the
answer is an unequivacable 'Yes'.  I did it during the Tech game last
year when we desperately needed a TO during a Jacket run.  I did it
early in the season when I was concerned about our lack of chemistry.
I've done similar things throughout my long and distinguished career
as a Carolina fan.  

But does this mean I think Dean 'choked'?  Hardly.  I've already commented
on this recently, but to summarize (again), Dean Smith's greatest strength
is The System.  It achieves fantastic success over the long haul, and
is equivalent to 'Percentage Basketball', whereby you do certain things
consistently game-in/game-out.  It stresses playing *your* game,
regardless of the opponent.  Carolina makes (relatively) few adjustments
based on their opponent.  They do (relatively) little scouting of
the opponent.  Dean wants the competitor to adjust to *him*.  He wants
his team to play the same way, night-in/night-out.

The disadvantage of this is that it achieves a certain consistent level
of play, but makes it difficult for your team to play *extraordinarily*
well on a given night.  For example, Temple can almost beat UNC because
Mark Macon has an unbelievable shooting night.  Carolina rarely enjoys
the benefit of riding on the coattails of a Macon or Monroe, cause The
System doesn't encourage 1 player shooting alot.  On the other hand,
when Macon or Monroe shoot poorly, chances are Temple or NC State will
lose.  Carolina will rarely lose a game because one player shot poorly,
and will rarely win a game because one player shot extremely well.


- ACC Chris
    
17.1604FSOA::JRODOPOULOSIntl. Business SupportFri Jul 12 1991 14:394
    Ahem, if we are going to be a gang then the title of "King Weasel" is
    invalid, unless of course that it is nickname like "Air Jordan".
    
    John "D Cowboys" R. 
17.1605Still breathin'SHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Fri Jul 12 1991 15:1519
17.1606This is too much!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Jul 12 1991 17:1513
    Basketball sure would be a funny game if you could go back after
    the final buzzer sounds, check the scoresheet to see who missed all the
    shots, and then let other players take 'em over again.
    
    It'd be one thing if the shots Brick, er, Rick was taking were
    ill-advised, but virtually all of them were wide open.  I can vividly
    recall one wide-open 2-foot baseline shot he clanged that woulda given
    us the lead with 5 minutes to go.  
    
    Yup, Dean sure choked that bunny ...
    
     
    - ACC Chris
17.1607Driving on both sides of the road again, Soup ???SHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Fri Jul 12 1991 17:338
17.1608Talk about yer belt high hangers !RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Jul 12 1991 17:5710
    Note the use of the word 'rarely'.  Course, on the opposite side of the
    coin I can *clearly* recall a game in the 1981 Final 4 when Al Wood put
    on a shooting clinic to lead us to_a improbable win over, ...  aw
    shucks, I forgot who that team was.  (I do remember they had a *reel*
    tall dude on the team who was PoY several times over ...)
    
    Haw haw haw!!!!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1609ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYI came. I saw. I hockered.Fri Jul 12 1991 18:0538
    At first I was shocked and dismayed to read Waugamain's startling
    statement.
    
    But, upon reading the blustery chin-dribble that statement (read:
    bait) elicited from Mr. Carolina Blew here, I understand the wisdom
    of his tack.
    
    On systems: Lotsa coaches use systems.  The question is how flexible
    they are in utilizing.  Most system teams either roll or fall apart
    cuz they cain't turn to a_individual player (within the context a 
    the system) to bail them out when the system ain't working.  This has
    been true for Team Bob.  Yet at the same time, on a player level, the
    system stands apart from the individual.  In other words, if a guy has
    no shooting touch or is failing to hold his own on the man D, he goes
    to the bench and is replaced by someone who, within the exact same 
    system, who might do better.
    
    This is why Bob, with nearly a decade and a half less time and truck
    loads less talent, has 3 to ol' Snuffy's paltry 1.  When Bob recruited
    Isiah disaster was predicted cuz Bob had always ran a forward-oriented
    offense, with little or no penetration by guards.  Isiah's first game,
    the offense is guard oriented, relying heavily on penetration plays.
    
    Flexibility exists in some systems and not in others.  This is a
    function of the coach, his ability to manipulate the system around his
    players, game situations, motivational needs, and developmental needs.
    
    Bob is a virtuoso at this and therefore his unparalleled success where
    it counts, i.e., crunch time.  Snuffer is a hack.  Under Bob, Brick
    Fox woulda been pulled or at least told not to shoot anything but
    layups long before costing the team yet another Title.  Smif sat there
    happy to blow the game and put the loss on poor Brick's broad shoulders.
    
    It was *so* bad that he even quit on his team!  Too bad he didn't leave
    the court earlier.  With one a the assistants running the Star Hells 
    squad North Carolina woulda won their 3rd Title!
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1610CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchFri Jul 12 1991 19:0732
re .1606

Yeah, but what you are saying assumes that the coach is non-existent during the
game.  It assumes that the coach is not watching his players, not noticing
who's hot and who's not.

A good coach isn't going to allow attempts from a guy who's clanging 78%
of the time.

Hell, even on the playground, without a coach around, the players know
that after a guy has tossed up a few bricks to go to him sparingly.
(I know that really well personnally)....


Therefore, one would assume that one of a couple of things happened that
night:

	a) Snuffy had his hands in his pockets, caressing his trouser
	   mouse and counting his chickens before they hatched.

	b) He was suffering from Rectal-Cranial Insertion, couldn't see
	   what the Brickmeister was doing, and when he finally got
	   his haid outta there he was so shocked that he got a T.

	c) He doesn't have enough brainpower to massage his SYSTEM a 
	   little during the game, and get the ball out of the Brickmeister's
	   hands into the hands of those other three or four players
	   who would have enabled him to make an even bigger choke on 
	   the following Monday night....


'Saw
17.1611He'll probably charge himself on the mound, tooSHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Sat Jul 13 1991 00:5018
17.1612Quit now Ketch, before this thing embarasses you furtherRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jul 15 1991 01:4917
    > Is that about right???
    
    No, it's not.  *YOU* were the one who jumped all over *me* when I
    stated that rarely does Carolina lose a game cause one player shoots
    poorly, and vice versa.  Unfortunately (for you) you were a tad hasty
    in your assault, apparently forgetting that the word "rarely" was
    carefully inserted into my comment!
    
    Hence, not only did I git a BP fastball to knock out of the park by
    pointing out how utterly wrong you were to accuse me of Thypocrisy
    (tm), but I  got_ta taunt you while touching all the bases!  (i.e. 
    remind you of another one of those 'rarelies' ...)
    
    Haw haw haw!!!1111
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1613cautionary noteANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYFree speech &amp; more TV -ManScapeMon Jul 15 1991 14:2918
    What's with Crisp?  He's losing it.  Self-contradiction, pointless
    metaphor, senseless wandering text.  Been watching too many Star
    Hell game films may.
    
    Crisp, you shoulapologize your note on coaching systems and then
    delete it.  I just reread it and was agape at the degree to which
    it betrayed two things about your threadba basketball "analyses":
    1) You'r so intellectual dishonest at this juncture that you'll
    tell bald-facedly one-sided versions of this sounding much like a
    Pentagon spokesperson having a bad day, and, 2) You arself-serving
    to the point of craven venality and wouldn't give a rat's ass about
    pursuit of Truteven iit came to you in the form of a spread-legged
    tart with cash in hand.
    
    Bah.  Youbetter take stock in joe self buddy, or it's gonna ggit rough
    in here.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1614Ah, not yet, T, I'm still a_chucklin'SHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Mon Jul 15 1991 14:467
 Well said, T, but let's not get too rough with him any time too soon.   
 Ya gotta admit, the young lad has beaucoup entertainment potential.
 
 After we've all stopped laughing, then we'll slice him up.    For
 now, I'm too busy cleaning my glasses to sharpen my knives.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1615Hope this helpsTNPUBS::NAZZAROIf you want to be the man ...Mon Jul 15 1991 15:309
    ACC_Chris:
    
    Take it from an editor:  when you hold down the shift key, the number 1
    magically transforms into an exclamation point (!).  I think that's
    what you were looking for a few notes back.
    
    Glad I could be of service.
    
    NAZZ
17.1616JR not out of the foldHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowMon Jul 15 1991 16:008
Remember the "me and Dean agree" from a while back on the issue of Dean
not talking to JR? Well, it ain't so. JR had an interview in the local
paper this morning wherein he says that he and Dean have continuing
conversations.

Oh well, I guess certain No Carolina followers will have to adjust.

TTom
17.1617Welcome back, JR.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jul 15 1991 16:096
    re: .-1
    
    Looks like Dean's "Tough Love" approach has worked.  Good to hear.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1618At least his grammar used to be good ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jul 15 1991 16:1015
> Crisp, you shoulapologize [sic] (for?) [sic] your note on coaching systems 
> and then delete it.  I just reread it and was agape at the degree to 
> which it betrayed two things about your threadba [sic] basketball 
> "analyses": [sic] 1) You'r [sic] so intellectual dishonest at this 
> juncture that you'll tell bald-facedly [sic] one-sided versions of 
> this sounding much like a Pentagon spokesperson having a bad day, and, 
> 2) You [sic] arself-serving [sic] to the point of craven venality and 
> wouldn't give a rat's ass about pursuit of Truteven [sic] iit [sic] 
> came to you in the form of a spread-legged tart with cash in hand.

Nice piece_a work, MorT.  Nice!  (And you're worried about *me*???)


- ACC Chris
    
17.1619MAXWEL::CHILDSsign said, Stay Away Fool..Mon Jul 15 1991 16:1815
 Nice try Glenn but you didn't really think he'd belly up to the bar with the
 truth now did ya??

 but seeing we're playing 20 questions please explain to me what was classy
 about his exit during the Kansas game? What message did his exit send to the
 masses? Did the baby blue faithful cheer because they felt he was just 
 exercising his rights to show up the refs? and why oh why didn't he get a T 
 in the game against East Michigan when he ran out on to the court to point out
 the wide body stud for EM who was pushing his Heels arounds?

 with his excellent recruiting record why does he feel he needs "hired guns"?
 why is he the only man to hold Jordan under 20? Why is 1-32?

 snuffy the choke!!!!!!!!!!
17.1620whateverHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowMon Jul 15 1991 16:2012
You missed the point, Chris. There weren't no tough love. The whole story
was bogus. 

In any case, it should be interesting to see JR battle Larry Johnson for
the 4 slot of the Hornets. JR is already in camp, joining the rookies and
free agents.

BTW, on another positive note, it seems that JR should finish his degree
this summer, afterall. He's commuting back and forth from Charlotte to
Chapel Hill to complete his courses.

TTom
17.1621CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchMon Jul 15 1991 16:2210
Mike,

Refer to my reply around .1610 or so, where I referenced Crisp's .1606.

My reply offers some explanations about the Kansas game, the prevalent
feeling having something to do with a trouser mouse....


hth,
'Saw
17.1622Oh, so that's how you run it !!! Thanks, Mr. Cowens.SHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Mon Jul 15 1991 16:248
 And one more thing, TTom ... earlier this spring/summer, JR Reid
 spent a week at a camp for big men that ex-Celtic Dave Cowens runs up
 in Massachusetts.
 
 No doubt he saw the screen-and-roll play a few times while he was up
 there.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1623CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchMon Jul 15 1991 16:261
Guess you can't take that basketweaving course by mail, eh?  [many 8^)]
17.1624JR vs. Larry Johnson should be intewesting ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jul 15 1991 16:4215
    Nice to see all the weasels standing in line to take a cheep-shot at
    poor me_and_Dean.  :^(
    
    Reminds me of the scene from Airplane where the stewardess,
    a nun plus many other passengers were standing in line to "deal with"
    some poor hysterical lady ...
    
    re: JR
    
    TTom, could_ya finally git the story correct, so I don't have to keep
    rewriting the definitive note applauding the way Dean handled him?
    (Thanks.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1625Dean is God and won't you ... Ooof, Pow, Thwock !!!SHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Mon Jul 15 1991 17:3616
17.1626Do I hear "often" ???SHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Tue Jul 16 1991 00:5825
17.1627CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchTue Jul 16 1991 10:5910
And I'd like to see the videos of that game too. 

I'll bet a review would find the Snuffmeister, hand jammed mightly and
deep into his pocket, glazed eyes looking sightlessly onto the court,
silly little grin on his face, barely audible whispers of "Tell me about
the rabbits again, George" escaping his lips....

No wonder he don't know how much time is left....

'Saw
17.1628What a Gang Leader!!!MAXWEL::CHILDSsign said, Stay Away Fool..Tue Jul 16 1991 15:012
 "In BoB we Trust".....
17.1629Back,back,back,back, .... IT'S GONE!!!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jul 16 1991 15:257
    Two (2) losses over a five (5) year span seems to fit the definition of
    "rarely" pretty well, if you ask me.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1630ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYFree speech &amp; more TV -ManScapeTue Jul 16 1991 15:3219
    He's gonna have a difficult time explaining away *that* little nugget 
    a fine research.  And it seems the Star Hells use the "flu" like 
    managers of hung over baseball players do.  Then he turns around and axes 
    TTom to please advise him of the facks so he cain "adjust" his statements 
    about his False Idol accordingly.
    
    The best thing about the Snuffer's ultra-geeky exit from the Kansas game 
    wasn't necessarily the shit-eating look on his face as he congratulated 
    the Jayhawks on their victory with 35 seconds to go.  No, the best part
    was when the asst. coach a this disciplined classy outfit attacked the
    referee in the runway, and the fack that the Star Hells themselves were
    involved in a scuffle with several policemen.
    
    The Kansas game was a case study in the kind a abject futility for which
    He stands.  Crisp's quotidien drivel is only the sugary icing on that
    cake.
    
    Big10 Tom
    
17.1631Took himself deep, didn't he ???SHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Tue Jul 16 1991 15:343
 Thanks, Soup, I knew you wouldn't disappoint us.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.163240% seems high to me...MAXWEL::CHILDSsign said, Stay Away Fool..Tue Jul 16 1991 15:523
 
 Bob Hunt

17.1633Way to go snuffy!HPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Tue Jul 16 1991 16:092
       nobody's been .400 since Ted Williams!
                                       Denny
17.1634Actually, Dean's hitting at a clip > .700RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jul 16 1991 16:588
    > nobody's been .400 since Ted Williams!
    
    Dean is batting .400 only if your math is 2/5.  As hard as it may be to
    believe, I'm pretty sure North Carolina has lost more than 2 games
    over a 5-year span.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1635(One UNC fan + Truth) > Thousands of WeaselsRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jul 16 1991 17:3345
> He's gonna have a difficult time explaining away *that* little nugget 
> a fine research.  

Wrong.  Two (2) losses over a five (5) year time frame quite easily
fits within the constraints of my use of the word "rarely".  


> And it seems the Star Hells use the "flu" like managers of hung over 
> baseball players do.  

First, I never said Rick Fox had the flu.  He denies it, FWIW.  I merely
posted the *rumor* that he was far less than 100% at game time.  (BTW,
this information did NOT come from the homer Carolina Blue paper, but
from a completely unbiased source.)

The fact that Lebo had the flu in '87 and cost us a 'W' against Syracuse
is a matter of public fact.  It doesn't make the 'L' any easier to take,
but does point out the folly of the weasel attempt to blame every Carolina
loss squarely on the shoulders of Dean, who last I checked has managed to 
coach his way to over 700 W's, at a percentage of over 70%, despite having 
consistently one of the most difficult schedules in the USA.  He's also
been to 8 Final 4's, 11 straight Sweet 16's, and has won more NCAA
Tournament games than anybody, including John Wooden.  (Not bad for
a "choker", eh?)


> Then he turns around and axes TTom to please advise him of the facks so 
> he cain "adjust" his statements about his False Idol accordingly.

That comment was obviously of a humorous nature, a fack that apparently
slipped past you, due to your mean-spirited nature.  :^(
    

> No, the best part was when the asst. coach a this disciplined classy 
> outfit attacked the referee in the runway, and the fack that the Star 
> Hells themselves were involved in a scuffle with several policemen.

The best part *should've* been our elderly ass't coach beating the snot
outa the biased and grudge-wielding "referee", and then having the police
arrest *him* for tossing a HoF coach cause he dared ask the question 'How 
much time do I have?'.


- ACC Chris
    
17.1636CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchTue Jul 16 1991 18:1447
>
>The fact that Lebo had the flu in '87 and cost us a 'W' against Syracuse
>is a matter of public fact.  It doesn't make the 'L' any easier to take,
>but does point out the folly of the weasel attempt to blame every Carolina
>loss squarely on the shoulders of Dean, who last I checked has managed to 
>coach his way to over 700 W's, at a percentage of over 70%, despite having 
>consistently one of the most difficult schedules in the USA. 


The bottom line still is that if you're the coach, and you got this here
System, and you know (ie your head is far enough OUT of your rectum, and
your hand is at least a_arm's length away from your trouser mouse) that
you got a player, an important cog in that system, who is suffering the
flu, then, when said player starts throwing up bricks, you adapt your
system away from the problem player, either by substituting someone
(even a FRESHMAN) who can shoot, or by passing the ball to someone else.

I mean, imagine the US Marine Corps, landing one some Pacific Island.
Their "System" says "Go straight from the landing craft into the jungle.
Make no detours".

When they hit the sand, the Japs have got all 45 thousands rifles on the
island, trained on that patch of sand.  Do you stick with the "System"
or improvise, overcome and adapt?


True champions can adapt and overcome adversity.  Deans 1-fer-31 record
shows he ain't a true champeen.....


>The best part *should've* been our elderly ass't coach beating the snot
>outa the biased and grudge-wielding "referee", and then having the police
>arrest *him* for tossing a HoF coach cause he dared ask the question 'How 
>much time do I have?'.

If Snuffy hadn't_a been baiting the ref, trying to force the calls his way,
he'd have been on the floor at the end of "yet_another_choke".  That
HoF Coach felt it imperative to run and hide his haid in shame.  Best way
to do it was to get tossed.

And as for the ass't coach and the minions is baby poo, well, like the Moonies
who would do without and turn over all their worldly possessions and
hard won money to the Rev, they just made fools of themselves while the
Rev drove around in a big fancy ol' car....  Same principle.....


'Saw
17.1637A bowl of Soup "well done", please ???SHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Tue Jul 16 1991 18:2316
17.1638Whither Way's Words ???SHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Tue Jul 16 1991 18:263
 Hey, 'Saw, whatever happened to your essay ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1639CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchTue Jul 16 1991 18:4914
I've been somewhat lax in my writing lately.  Must be writer's block.

I fully intended to put in a whizbanger of a satirical essay on Dean
and his Minions, but somehow, the white spaces on the page stay big
and the black letters just don't seem to flow.

About the best I could muster lately was that little rugby vignette the
other day, which clearly is not my best work....

I'll try again to crank something out...

8^)

'Saw
17.1641ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewTue Jul 16 1991 20:2414
    Oh no you don't, Crisp.  You said "rarely" and then it turns out
    that two a the biggest games over a five year span were lost to
    alleged flu-striken stars creating a clanking din like you'd hear
    in a low wage/low productivity metal shop.
    
    Your underlying logic is sick: It implies that cupcake games against
    Fake Forest and McCheesne State carry no less weight than once-every-
    few-years tournament opportunities.
    
    Know what Greatness is?  (No, of course you don't.)  I'll tell ya what
    Greatness is: Earning the opportunity to do something Great and then
    doing it.  At least poor Snuffer got half a it right...
    
    MrT 
17.1642I feel Frank is in line for a promotion...MAXWEL::CHILDSsign said, Stay Away Fool..Wed Jul 17 1991 13:320
17.1643IncentiveSHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Wed Jul 17 1991 13:406
17.1644CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchWed Jul 17 1991 13:5711
Well, if I didn't have to do that wonderful leeeettle duty called 
Engineering Support this morning, I'd be cranking out the old essay
as we speak.

I've got the general idea of it in my haid, and now all we need is the
words on paper... 

Soon, gents, soon.....


'Saw
17.1645FSOA::JRODOPOULOSIntl. Business SupportWed Jul 17 1991 17:429
    'Saw,
    
     Can't wait to read your essay cause "I'm your number one fan!!"
    
    Signed,
    
    Annie Wilkes
    
    P.S. From the movie Misery
17.1646No, *I'M* his 'Number One Fan!!!'. (I insist!)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jul 17 1991 18:206
    re: .-1
    
    Haw haw haw!!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1647You all asked for it...you got it....CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchWed Jul 17 1991 18:54137
Here it is, hot off the presses.....



		American Loves A Winner


America loves a winner.  I think it was General George Patton who
said that, but no matter who said it, they were right.

America loves a winner.  Ask the average man on the street who lost the
1860 President Election, and they couldn't tell you.  They wouldn't know
that Stephen Douglas, one of three losing candidates, lost to the man
history knows as The Great Emancipator.

Ever since the opening pages of American History, winners have been
heralded and losers forgotten.  From Presidential elections to the
World Series, to the Pillsbury Bakeoff, the winners' names live in
infamy, and the losers' names are best left to the arcane databanks
in the brains of the stellar ranks of top Jeopardy! contestants.

In Maine, in the wintertime, in a country store, old men crowd around
a wood stove fighting off a blizzard's chill.  To be sure, the bottle
of Kentucky whiskey that they pass helps some, but what really warms
their hearts are the tales and yarns spun of the World Series.  Who it
was that won in 1932, and where you were when you were listening, ayuh.

In Biloxi, Mississippi, on an old creaky porch, in the hot noontime
sun, two old men playing checkers and drinking beer, reminesce about 
Douglas MacArthur's island hopping campaign in the Pacific, and about
the Marines ("Semper Fi when you say that, boy") who bled and died
on their way up Mount Surabachi.

In fact, when you mention The Corps, probably one of the greatest monuments
ever to The Winners is erected in Washington DC.  The sculpture of the
Marines raising the flag on top of that bloody hill reminds us all what
the glory of a hard fought victorious fight looks like.

Perhaps the greatest kind of winner America loves is the kind who, against
all the longest odds, came out ahead at the buzzer.  The kind of winner
that make people sit back, cup their chin thoughtfully in one hand, 
and say "God was on their side".

Bastogne, in the heart of Europe, in the dead of winter.  The United
States Airborne forces utterly and completely surrounded by German troops,
close to starvation, low on ammunition.  When offered the chance to
surrender, General McAuliffe's reply illustrated how American's feel
about quitters.  "Nuts," he said.  They hung on, and held out, and ultimately
marched out, victorious.

While America loves a winner, one thing that they have always loved
just as much, is a loser who never said die, and who lost with honor
and glory, and an angst that defies description.

"Remember the Alamo" goes the cry.  Wonderful, rousing stories of Jim Bowie
going down with the Mexicans still feeling the vengeful slashing of the
knife that bears his name.  The Americans held their line in the sands
of Texas, and today their names are Glory.

As I've often heard mentioned, the South adores Robert E. Lee.  Here was
a man, a smart, quiet and humble man, who fought galiantly in a losing
cause.  America, all of America respects Robert E. Lee, because even till
the end he was attempting to overcome, adjust, improvise... anything that
would gain him a victory, or more time.  

Lee fought with nothing.  Agrarian economies rarely are any good at
producing the materials of war.  His men, while valiant, were often
rag tag.  And, the bulk of the fighting was on his soil, not in the north.
Yet still he forged campaigns which are still studied in the military
colleges.


Today, there is another Southern man who is heralded by some.  He is
a winner they proclaim, and point to his better than 70 percent winning
record in his thirty-one year career.

Yet this man is maligned by others and rightly so.  The very qualities
that America cherishes are absent in this man.  Humility?  Non-existent,
for who among the living, outside the greatest of our statesmen, or
philosophers, allows a building to be erected in his name.

A never say die philosophy?  Again non-existent.  For who would quit
in such a demeaning, lowly way, as to be thrown from the arena of
athletic competition.  And as low as that debacle was, the reason of
"not knowing how much time is left" is probably the poorest of all
excuses, since in America (as just about everywhere else in the world
where there are running water and indoor toilets), telling time has
almost become an inate skill.

And finally, America despises the person who unthinkingly, and unswervingly
bangs his head against the proverbial brick wall time and time and time
again, in a losing cause.  The greatest, most glorious and honored 
losers came up short in the final moments, after improvising, adapting
and attempting to overcome tough odds.  To simply stand there, and
bang away head on, over and over and over ad nauseum, proves just how
limited a loser you must be.


The Southern man we've been talking about is Dean Smith, head basketball
coach at UNC.  A slightly interesting case, as cases go.  But what really
interests this author, is not the limited man, whose paltry record in the
games that count the most, whose reputation for ultimate choke-jobs and
cowardly quitting preceeds this essay, but the fans.  The "blinded by
the baby blue light" fans who continue to herald this man despite all
his losing ways.

They worship everything America stands against.  Dean has a System.
A method of playing basketball that he is so locked into that in
championships, the truest test of an American's mettle, Dean is
but 1-for-31.  When Dean is down, and something is going wrong, 
does he try to improvise, overcome, and adapt?  No, not Dean.

And, quite contrary to the image of the Southern man most revered,
Dean has been blessed with talent.  More talent than one could 
imagine.  Yet, having been blessed with the man who is arguably
the best in professional basketball today, Dean and his system
made that man but a shadow of what he is today.  That Michael
Jordan is heralded as the best today is testament to Michael,
not Dean.


So suffice it to say that America doesn't love Dean.  No, only his faithful
in their little baby blue enclave worship him, the way Jim Jones faithful
must have worshipped him in yet another monument named after the living,
Jonestown.


America loves a winner.  America doesn't love Dean.  Probably the 
only thing an American could hate worse than someone like Dean, is
someone whose only wins are garnered through the outrageous, unwitting
mistakes of his opponents, in the final seconds of a seemingly already
won contest.

Say.....



17.1648No Pulitzer, but a weasel promotion's probablee in order :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jul 17 1991 19:398
    I feel like I just got into the ring with Mike Tyson, only to discover
    he's punching with pillows on his hands!
    
    Sorry 'Saw.  It was actually quite good until the "62 more lines..."
    mark, but then started unraveling like a cheep Harlequin romance.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1649Excellent summation of the intellectual dishonesty {applause,applause}VAXWRK::SCHNEIDERIsthmus be my lucky day.Wed Jul 17 1991 19:401
    
17.1650Promotion AnnouncementSHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Wed Jul 17 1991 19:478
 As of this moment in time, Frank "Chainsaw" Way is hereby promoted to
 Principal Henchman.   
 
 Congratulations, 'Saw, and a hearty "Well done!".   An outstanding
 effort worthy of Henchmen Hall Of Fame consideration.   I especially
 loved the way you wove ol' Bobby Lee into your theme.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1651Carolina Summer UpdateRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jul 17 1991 21:5213
    From USA Today:
    
    "North Carolina teammates Hubert Davis and George Lynch combined for 38
     points to lead the U.S. men's basketball team to a 103-57 victory
    against Ireland in their first game, Tuesday, of the World University
    Games at Sheffield, England."
    
    Good work, men.  Both Hubie and George were cut from the Pan Am team,
    which is down to 17 people the last I heard.  Eric Montross was one of
    the remaining 17. 
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1652MAXWEL::CHILDSsign said, Stay Away Fool..Wed Jul 17 1991 22:197
 Beautiful simply beautiful...anytime you want to come over and work for 
 Communications Saw, just let me know. I'll open up a rec in a nanosecond..

 ;^)

 I fail to see the dishonesty Dan..I think you're reaching pal...
17.1653CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchThu Jul 18 1991 11:459
Gee, Chris, I guess I should have given you the one with the ending where
Dean is carried into Heaven on Wings of Angels, the baby blue faithful
genuflecting low and crossing themselves, as Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and
the late Dr. Naismith welcome their tireless crusader, all to the tune
of some Vangelis "Chariots of Fire" type music....

I tried that ending, but my nose kept getting longer and longer and longer ;^)

'Saw
17.1654ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewThu Jul 18 1991 15:2017
    Well done, Saw.  The Jim Jones comparison was the key that brought
    it all together.  I went back over my tape a the last 5 minutes a
    the infamous Kansas choke-job, and when I freeze framed the Quitter
    with that sheet-eating grin on his face congradulating his opponents
    on their fine victory (with 45 seconds to go)...
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    .... I could almost smell the Kool-Aid.
    
    Bravo.
    
    MrT
17.1655Not-So-Mighty Snuffy Has Struck Out ... Again !!!SHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Thu Jul 18 1991 15:4643
 Actually, after some pondering of 'Saw's magnificent essay, I believe
 we can actually add one sports *LOSER* to the list of forever famous
 and fondly revered Americans.   I realize that Principal Henchman Way
 did indeed mention the gallant losers at The Alamo but I'm referring
 to a genuine American sports legend known simply for his massive
 failure.
 
 And, he is, of course, the fictional "Casey" of Mudville from the
 legendary Thayer poem "Casey At The Bat".    Yes, Casey did indeed
 whiff with two men on and everything on the line.   And, yes, the
 "Mighty Casey" is indeed adored throughout the land for this one
 singular failure.
 
 But that's it ... he whiffed *ONCE*.    Mighty Casey had one and only
 one chance at the big taco and he fanned.   He was 0-for-1 in the
 poem.   In real life, Mighty Snuffy is a pitiful 1-for-31 with
 everything on the line.   
 
 "Casey At The Bat" does not have 31 stanzas or verses or chapters or
 whatever you divide poems into.   He came up once with everything on
 the line, swung mightily, and missed.   And we love him for it.  
 There was no fear in Casey's eyes.   Time stood still unlike in
 Snuffy's case where time was a complete mystery.   It was mano-a-mano
 and Casey just plain missed.   He was no less a man for having tried
 and failed and we all know that and love him for it.
 
 But, Snuffy, poor Snuffy is a sad, pathetic, incredibly weak 1-for-31
 and we've grown tired of his cheap, threadbare losing act.   We can
 not imagine loving a 1-for-31 Casey so we do not love a 1-for-31
 Snuffy.   Casey would have been replaced with another hitter long
 before he ever got to 1-for-31 in 9th inning at-bats.   Casey would
 have been selling insurance by now.
 
 But not our Snuffy.   Oh, no, in Chapel Mudville (tm), the faithful
 recite "Snuffy At The Bat" (tm) each and every spring and they cheer
 harder and louder each time poor Snuffy whiffs.   Year in and year
 out, they get two men on in the bottom of the 9th and Mighty Snuffy
 whiffs.   And they love him even more.    Sad stuff.   Almost makes
 you feel sorry for them.
 
 Almost.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1656ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewThu Jul 18 1991 15:577
    The worst part of the whole thing is that Snuffer has manipulated
    the less informed into believing that he's such a winner!  
    
    Things absolutely bottom out when some a these less informed come
    in here and attempt to document what simply isn't there.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1657CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchThu Jul 18 1991 17:1417
Yeah, and if the poem had been "Snuffy Behind the Bench", you can bet my
and your bottom dollar that he woulda found a way to quit and weasel on
outta the game before the final seconds (which he would have claimed he
didn't know ho many were left....)

Now, Casey is revered because there's a certain angst in his losing.
Snuffy has no angst.  He comes to the big dance, and you KNOW he's gonna
go home a whipped cur wif his tail between his legs.

Also, Casey was a winner who lost once.  He reputation preceeded him, and
the folks expected him to clean it on up.  I'd bet that Casey was
probably 30-1 instead of 1-30....


Yep, no doubt about it....

'Saw
17.1658MrT like an aging fastball pitcher who's lost his heaterRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jul 18 1991 17:3124
    This might make a good story for 60 Minutes or one_a_them other TV
    Journalism shows, but ...
    
    Me_thinks there's an interesting organization transition underway among
    the weasels.  In their haste to spew dishonesty and lies they're tripping
    over each other trying to outdo themselves.  FrankWay has just gotten a
    big promotion with a fine expose of filthy mistruths, yet KingHunt
    retains a firm grip on the organization.  Others have been piping in
    with humorous barbs and lies, no doubt earning points with The
    Big Boss.
    
    And yet MrT, once the leading anti-UNC bigot, seems to be spinning his
    wheels and go nowhere but down.  Once a cutting-edge noter with style 
    and wit to go along with his legendary Thypocrisy (tm), he's been reduced 
    to, dare I say it?, a sideline cheerleader, encouraging on others while 
    offering nothing creative or humorous in his own right.  It gets worse 
    given his recent tendency toward typos, misspellings, and poor grammar.
    
    What gives, MrT?  Have you lost it?  Are you a noter past your prime?
    Is it time to hang up your keyboard??  How long cain your ego take
    the role of being a part-time, 'role' noter???
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1659Clear the decks, men. He's all yours, T.SHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Thu Jul 18 1991 17:516
 Boy, Soup, you sure do love to stare down the barrel, don'tcha ???  
 You wanna wake up a sleeping T, you go right ahead.
 
 Gentlemen, prepare thyselves.   Our amusement is forthcoming.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1660Your orgchart does not mean we have a SYSTEMSHALOT::MEDVIDBack to the Heavyweight JamThu Jul 18 1991 17:5215
>    Me_thinks there's an interesting organization transition underway among
>    the weasels.  In their haste to spew dishonesty and lies they're tripping
>    over each other trying to outdo themselves.  
    
    Nope, us weasels adhere to no restrictive organizational system in
    which the senior weasels are forced to enter notes even though they
    aren't having the greatest inspirational days.  
    
    'Saw is on a hot streak (also known as 'burning your ass, Chris'). 
    Should there come a day in the near future where 'Saw is writing poorly
    and making nonsense, ol' HUNTmaster will send him a note saying 'cool
    it for a while on the weasel bench while some of our rested and hot
    keyboarders go at it.'
    
    	--dan'l
17.1661CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchThu Jul 18 1991 17:5322
Nah, there's no power hungry takeover attempts going on in the weasels.
We're just spreading the fun around a bit.

I wrote a fine (if I do say so myself) essay.  True, it could have been
better, but then I didn't finely hone it either.  The promotion was not
the true motivation, but rather the pleasant satisfaction I feel when
I've got a good rhythm going putting words together.

As to MrT, true, some of his replies lately have seemed like they were
entered on a dirty dialup line from an old VT52 terminal, but the spark,
the aura, the legendary wit is still there.  Like a marathon running
rejuvenating between races, MrT is letting some of the lesser weasels
in to participate in the fun....

No, Crisp, we're close.  We're closer and closer to the real truth, which
is the Dean is a great recruiter, who fails so miserably with wonderful,
wonderful talent, once he gets to the Big Dance.


'Saw

PS  Almost time for a new org chart....8^)
17.1662CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchThu Jul 18 1991 17:5516
>    'Saw is on a hot streak (also known as 'burning your ass, Chris'). 
>    Should there come a day in the near future where 'Saw is writing poorly
>    and making nonsense, ol' HUNTmaster will send him a note saying 'cool
>    it for a while on the weasel bench while some of our rested and hot
>    keyboarders go at it.'
 

And on that day, I'll glady do some high-fivin', and come to the bench.
Our bodacious blonde watergirl will hand me a cup of water, and then I'll
sit.  But just for a second.  Soon after that I'll have my towel in hand,
cheering, cheering from the bench....

Oh, the glory in being on the winning team!


'Saw
17.1663You want Truth? Check out the HoF, it's as simple as that.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jul 18 1991 18:2711
    > We're closer and closer to the real truth
    
    Haw haw!!!  Weasels wouldn't know Truth (as it relates to college
    basketball) if it ran up and bit_em squarely on the ace!
    
    If you want Truth as it relates to Dean Smith from a non-biased source,
    just take a trip to Springfield, MA to the Basketball Hall of Fame and
    check out Dean's bronzed mug (complete with realistic mega-sized nose).
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1664HPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Thu Jul 18 1991 18:303
    re: Snuffer in the HOF
       All that proves is that longevity counts.
                                     Denny
17.1665Better than Space MountainSHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Thu Jul 18 1991 18:5816
 Don't forget, though, that if you do go to the Basketball Hall Of
 Fame and you do happen to gaze at the Snuff Schnozz a little bit too
 much, they will escort you out of the building 35 seconds before
 closing time.   But you get to stop and shake all the security
 guards' hands on your way out.
 
 And then out in the parking lot, there's a referee doll that your
 kids can choke, punch and kick while you can walk up to a simulated
 microphone stand and complain that you just wanted to know how much
 time was left before the exhibits closed.
 
 Sort of a "Live The Experience" type thing.  It's all the rage these
 days.   But you have to have very talented kids there with you. 
 Otherwise, they don't choke as good.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1666CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchThu Jul 18 1991 19:2226
Bob Hunt, you've got me rollward!

Being this moment, just 45 minutes away from the HoF, I can just imagine
all the yuppified parents with their little tykes (who were recruited
from the farthest reaches of New England) choking....

An inside the HoF I can imagine all the Hare Smithnas(tm) in their flowing
baby blue robes, sitting in front of the great Bronzed Schnoz chanting
"Hare Smithna, Smithna, Smithna, Hare Hare Smithna"...

The, ever so slightly to one side, will be a bunch of UNC alum, all decked
out in long hair, tie dyed shirts, and bell bottom jeans, sitting around
on the floor, burning candles and drinking wine, much like the Doors
faithful do at the grave of Jim Morrison in Pere LaChese Cemetary in Paris...


The Truth.  The Truth is that the Baby Blue Faithful worship at a Shrine
to a Loser.  A man who loses with such mediocrity and sans elan...
If he didn't have talent, you could use that as an excuse.  If he consistently
sucked in the regular season, you could use that as an excuse.  But to
consistently and regularly gag on the chicken bone at the Big Dance in
games you should win, and to have your one paltry win be a gift from
a player who made a reflex action pass to the color he'd worn all season...
Well, as Harold Hill would say, you got trouble my friend.....

'Saw
17.1667DeanodromeHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowThu Jul 18 1991 19:355
Public Service Announcement:

	Staring too long at Dean's nose can cause brain lesions.

TTom
17.1668Intellectually you have no leg to stand on.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jul 18 1991 19:4029
    > If he consistently sucked in the regular season
    
    Ah yes, one of my favorite Thypocricies (tm).  (Kinda makes me sad,
    rememberin' T the way he used to be.  Sniff, sniff, sniff!)
    
    Let's see, how can I make you understand ...
    
    First, should a coach receive extra-credit for a team that does poorly
    during the regular season but goes farther than it should in the
    tournament?  Isn't this rewarding underachivement?  Or are you of the
    opinion that the ONLY thing that matters in college basketball is the
    NCAA Tournament.  If so, I'd like to know why people waste *so* much
    money selling out all those regular season games, and why ESPN/CBS
    waste *so* much air-time televising the silly things.  I'd also like to
    know how Dean got inducted into the HoF *before* he even won his Title! 
    (Or are all the people who voted him in 'Hare Smithnas' like myself?)
    
    Second, how do *you* know that Carolina wasn't OVERACHIEVING during the
    regular season?  In fact, this is *exactly* what typically happens
    because, as I've already pointed out and gotten buy-in from your King
    on, The System is at its strongest over the long haul, not the
    'one-loss-and-you're-gone' NCAA Tourney format.  The evidence of this
    is overwhelming, what with Dean having *averaged* 25 wins p/ year for
    31 years!  (An unbelievable accomplishment, actually.)
    
    Think about it.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1669Alright, Henchdudes, line 'em up and let 'em ripSHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Thu Jul 18 1991 20:2184
17.1670Get ready for the tap dance ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jul 18 1991 20:5722
    > If your numbers are evidence, then *all* numbers are evidence,
    > 'kay???
    
    Oh, I git it.  Numbers are NOT to be used as evidence to support a
    theory and, if they are, the intellectually dishonest among us are free
    to use, oh, any darn numbers they want to prove, oh, any darn thing
    they want.  Hey, sounds fair to me.  :^)
    
    Let's try another angle.  Would you all agree that the basis of your
    theory that Dean "chokes" during the NCAA Tournament is based on the
    fact that his tourney results don't measure up to his regular season
    results? 
    
    If so, consider the fact that in 31 years Carolina has finished on top
    of the national polls exactly twice, and has one NCAA Championship to
    show for it.  I'd also put money on the theory that, averaged out over
    31 years, Carolina has finished at least as high in the NCAA Tournament
    as their season-ending AP/UPI ranking.  Care to match my cash?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.16712 for 1?HBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowThu Jul 18 1991 21:089
>    If so, consider the fact that in 31 years Carolina has finished on top
>    of the national polls exactly twice, and has one NCAA Championship to
>    show for it.  

Chris, are you saying that in one year No Carolina finished as the number
1 ranked team even though they didn't win the championship? That musta
been a_exceptionally excellent loss. 

TTom
17.1672Don't get too close to him, thoughSHALOT::HUNTThings that make you go 'Hmmmm' ...Thu Jul 18 1991 21:4438
17.1673CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchFri Jul 19 1991 11:1682
Bob Hunt's comment about Casey At The Bat got me to thinking last night.

This, for your Friday reading pleasure, is what I came up with:





             Snuffy At The Champeenship


It looked extremely rocky, for the UCONN five that day,
The score stood eighty-two to eighty with scant minutes left to play.
When Scotty Burrell fouled out, and Chris Smith did the same,
A pallor wreathed the features of the patrons of the game.

A straggling few got up to go, leaving there the rest,
with that hope that springs eternal within the human breast.
For they thought: If only Tate or Nadav were on this tournament trip,
They'd put even money now, on winning the NCAA Championship.

But Tate was gone to Jersey, and likewise Nadav to the Middle East,
The former warmed the Nets' bench, the latter played, at least.
So on that stricken multitude a deathlike silence sat,
there seemed no chance for victory, and that my friends was that.

But Providence smiled on UCONN, to the wonderment of all
Because of their opponent in this NCAA final call.
For when the fans looked over, over at the opponents' pine,
The team that there sat was UNC and Dean Smith walked the coaching line.

Then from the gladdened multitude went up a joyous yell,
It rumbled in the mountain tops, it rattled in the dell.
Because the crowd was cognizant, they knew one joyous fact,
They'd seen it time and time again, they'd seen old Snuffy's act.

There was ease in UCONN's manner, as they returned from their time out
They knew the chances were so great that Snuffy would bow out.
For Jim Calhoun had told them, Snuffy's an ordinary bloke,
But here in this here "champeenship" we can count on him to choke.

Ten thousand eyes were on Snuff, as he double checked his System,
Rick Fox was two for twenty, but the Snuffer wouldn't yank 'im.
Then when the Huskies lined up to put inbounds the ball,
There was a pregnant silence, filling up the hall.

The ball came in at half court, hurtling through the air,
And Snuffy stood just watching, with a haughty grandeur there.
Close by the Husky player, a talented Tar Heel made a move,
Then he stole the ball and now it seemed the Huskies would surely lose.

From the benches black with people, there went up a muffled roar,
Like the beating of the storm waves on a stern and distant shore.
But the System would not fail them, it would not fail o'er all the land,
for the Freshman Tar Heel stealer, passed the ball to Rick Fox's hand.

With a smile of Christian charity, Jim Calhoun's visage shone,
He knew so well, so very well, how his Huskies would go home.
Rick Fox was the man said the System, and Snuffy's heart strings sang,
but then Fox put the ball up, and it rebounded with a mightly clang.

The Huskies took the rebound came back down and tied the game,
And then pressed heavy on defense, hoping Fox would Clang the same.
Then Snuffy's face grew stern and cold, the crowd saw his muscles strain,
They saw his hands move to his throat, they saw him in his pain.

The clock read thirty-five scant seconds left for time,
when Fate overtook the Snuffer, and he stepped up from his line.
"How much time, how much time?" he croaked, yet he knew with certainty
And this the ref knew also, as his hands spelled out a "T".

The Snuffer left the courtside, shaking hands as he headed West,
some said what a sportsman, others geekery at its best.
The Huskies came back and won it, to bring the Championship home,
The Snuffer sat in the locker room, fondling a chicken bone.

Oh somewhere in this favored land, the sun is shining bright,
The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light,
And somewhere men are laughing, and in SPORTS the Weasels are right,
But there is no joy in Chapel Hill, for Snuffy choked again tonight.


17.1674Cold, Saw, cold... But I loved it! (Sorry ACC ;-)AKOV06::DCARRAlways look on the bright side of life!Fri Jul 19 1991 12:561
    
17.1675From the Weasel n' lurking....STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishFri Jul 19 1991 13:0034
Well the most dangerous weasel strikes with the Facks.....

A little research on the history of NC's NCAA losses shows that ACChris once
again was fibbin' when he states that NC rarely loses a game because one
player shoots poorly in the 'system'.  Take a glance at the numbers.....

Year	Player		Stats	FG %	UNC Lost to
----	------		-----	----	-----------
1967	Lewis		5-18	.273	Dayton
1968	Charlie Scott	6-17	.353	UCLA
1969	Charlie Scott	6-19	.316	Purdue(yes the same Charlie Scott of NBA fame)
1972	George Karl	5-14	.357	Florida St.
1977	Phil Ford    	3-11 	.273	Marquette
1979	Dudley Bradley	3-9	.300	Penn(Huge Upset)
1981	James Worthy	3-11	.273	Indiana
1984	Michael Jordan  6-15	.400	Indiana
1985	K.Smith/R.Smith 5-17	.294	Villanova
1986	K. Smith	3-9	.333	Louisville
1987	J. Lebo		0-5	.000	Syracuse
1988	JR Reid/Madden  5-19	.263	Arizona
1989	Steve Bucknall  2-7	.286	Michigan
1990	Williams/Fox	9-25	.360	Arkansas(Fox gearing up for 1991)
1991	Fox		5-22	.227	Kansas
			----	-----
Totals		       66-218   .302  

Each year, Dean had talented underclassmen on the bench and in almost every
case the poor-shooting 'star' was allowed to play more than 30 minutes to 
shoot his way out of the slump and shoot NC to another 'excellent' loss.

Does anyone see a pattern here???

Cap
    
17.1676Henchmen At Their BestSHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesFri Jul 19 1991 13:337
 Outstanding, 'Saw.   Simply superb.   Max rollward.
 
 Oh, and Cap, thanks for the data.   Not that it'll make much of a
 dent in the Faithful but it certainly reinforces "The System" as
 anything but a championship winner.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1677CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchFri Jul 19 1991 13:4413
Bob --

Tonight's the night.  Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey opens!

BTW, I think the guy who plays Ted also plays in "Break Point" with
Patrick Swayze, but I could be wrong...


As to the Casey thing, I just couldn't resist.  As Maverick said in
Top Gun, I was there, I had the shot, I took it.....


'Saw
17.1678MCIS1::DHAMELBadda-bing, badda-boomFri Jul 19 1991 13:498
    
    >Tonight's the night.  Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey opens!
    
    Is this the one about William Kennedy Smith and his Senator Uncle?
    Boy, they crank out these docudramas fast!
    
    Dickstah
    
17.1679And God is the "Creator Dude"SHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesFri Jul 19 1991 13:5624
17.1680Don't forget that all three seniors gaggedSHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesFri Jul 19 1991 14:2113
17.1681CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchFri Jul 19 1991 14:269
Cap and Bob, 

	If you guys keep it up, we're gonna ALL need some lacquer...


And Gee, where's ACC Crock(tm)?  We've been pinging pretty hard in here,
and he's yet to surface....

'Saw
17.1682MrT: A "right-sizing" casualty. [sniff,sniff]RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Jul 19 1991 18:2717
    > Cap    -  Easily the most dangerous of all the weasels, even ecclipsing
    >  	        the scary BobHunt.  He plays the role of the 'Hired Assassin',
    >           swooping in occasionally for brutal UNC/Dean assaults.  
    
    In light of 17.1675, truer words hath never been spoken!  
    
    Cap is indeed a cagey and dangerous fellow.  So much so that, in this
    era of "down-sizing" and "right-sizing" I think we can all agree that
    the services of his boss, MrT, are no longer necessary.
    
    Cap, consider yourself promoted.  MrT, consider yourself tapped on the
    shoulder.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
17.1683Cap :== Stealth Noter Of The YearSHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesFri Jul 19 1991 19:2515
 While Soup is making yet another futile attempt to purge MrT from the
 ranks of the Henchmen, let us all note that by doing so, he's
 agreeing with Cap's observations that Snuff's "System" gags in the
 clutch.
 
 Otherwise, if he disagreed with Cap, why we ask would Soup once again
 acknowledge Cap's assassin skills and thus push for his promotion at
 T's expense ???    Hmmm ...
 
 So, now we have it, Soup finally concedes the point.  Snuff chokes. 
 "Rarely" really means "Often".   You know it, I know it, Soup knows it.
 
 Cigars and Dom Perignon all around.   Here's to you, Cap.   
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1684Low even for you Ketch ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Jul 19 1991 19:3418
    > let us all note that by doing so, he's agreeing with Cap's 
    > observations that [Dean Smith's] "System" gags in the clutch
    
    Come back, Ketch?  Pu-leaze explain to me in gory detail how my
    temporary failure to respond to Cap is an implicit endorsement
    of his thorough research.  
    
    It ain't, but don't let *my* denials prevent you from railroading 
    this intellectually bankrupt notion ...
    
    As to MrT, I'm concerned.  Hey, we can all go through slumps now and
    then, but this poor soul hasn't had a NoTY entry in, well, *years*!
    There comes a point in the career of every athlete when he must
    recognize that they're not in a slump anymore, they've just plain lost
    it!
    
    
    - ACC Chris 
17.1685Cap's right; Soup said so; Case closed.SHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesFri Jul 19 1991 20:1931
17.1686Cap is tough on me, but also has a healthy respect for Dean. :^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Jul 19 1991 21:0817
    Cap deserves a promotion for the same reason any weasel does.  Namely,
    he's doing a fantastic job at promoting mistruths, lies, falsehoods,
    and propaganda, all in the name of anti-UNC bigotry.
    
    
    > [Dean Smith] has been bucking for a section '8' for some time now
    
    Not even the University of South Carolina, which fired its coach
    because he only managed outrageously exceed expectations by winning
    20 games (including an upset over Top 10 at_the_time UNC) would see 
    fit to fire a coach when he wins his conference championship and makes 
    the Final 4.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1687Snuff's an old man getting olderSHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesFri Jul 19 1991 21:3925
 Wait a minute, you lost me.  What the hail do the Gamecocks have to
 do with Snuff's increasing senility ???
 
 South Carolina canned George Felton because he allegedly has a
 drinking problem and because the 'Cocks folded miserably at the end
 of last season ... losing like 10 of their final 12, blowing a sure
 NCAA bid, and exiting quickly in the NIT.
 
 Snuff, of course, did everything he could to keep his talented troops
 from reaching the promised land and he finally succeeded in Indy.  
 Remember when he was too proud to take a TO, baby, against Ga Tech or
 when he refused to play a much-needed zone against Duke in the Snuff
 Dome ???   All signs of a senile old bird.
 
 Finally caught up to him in Indy when he ran 93 subs in there,
 insisted that Brick keep on launching, sat Montross down, and then
 took his two T's and skeedaddled.
 
 This is not a well man.   He'd be in line before Klinger by now in
 the 4077th.   Even tuff ol' Colonel Potter would've signed Snuff's
 stateside papers by this time.
 
 And, once again, you lost me with the reference to the 'Cocks.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1688It gets stranger and stranger ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Jul 19 1991 22:5415
    Carolina goes 29-5, finishes 2nd in the regular season ACC race and then 
    wins the ACC Championship, finishes in the Top 5 in the national polls,
    and then wins the East Regional to reach the Final 4, and we're supposed 
    to believe Dean's too senile to coach anymore?  All with a team most 
    "experts" said had too many talented yet inexperienced freshmen as well
    as too many talentless and experienced seniors to do any real damage.
    
    Ay-uh.  Sure, Ketch.  Sure.  
    
    The reference to the 'Cocks was equating your ridiculous comment that
    Dean should go with the equally ridiculous decision by the USC
    AD to fire George Felton.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1689Got your tickets yet ???SHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesSun Jul 21 1991 17:4020
17.1690For once I agree with you. I hope he's still coaching in 2001RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueSun Jul 21 1991 20:0310
    > No way do I want to see this.
    
    You must be a tad on the sadistic side Ketch.  Here you've watched
    Dean kick around your alma mater for several decades now, and
    you're anxiously looking forward to a third!
    
    Haw haw haw!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1691HPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Mon Jul 22 1991 11:118
>    Cap deserves a promotion for the same reason any weasel does.  Namely,
>    he's doing a fantastic job at promoting mistruths, lies, falsehoods,
>    and propaganda, all in the name of anti-UNC bigotry.
    
       Care to point out which of his numbers in his most recent note were 
    "lies, falsehoods, and propaganda"? Or are you hoping it will just
    slide out of sight.
                                        Denny
17.1692ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewMon Jul 22 1991 13:2418
    >you've watched Dean kick around your alma mater for several decades
    >now...
    
    Who are YOU to talk about alma maters?  YOU have nary a thread a
    any sorta connection to UNC-CH.  Rien.  As for UVA's travails, at 
    least they haven't become a televised metaphor, as Snuffy's program 
    has, for America's economic decline: I.e., maximum resources, poor
    standards, ethics and husbandry, and wretched leadership in key
    situations.
    
    >Does anyone see a pattern here???
    
    Yes.  I see ACCrock (tm) now defeated on two levels: 1) The 1-33 
    beats him on the macrobiotic plane, 2) your fine research on NCAA
    persistently lost due to runaway bricklayers also jams him on the
    microscopic plane.
    
    MrT
17.1693C'mon, Soup, you're slippin'34223::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesMon Jul 22 1991 13:5023
17.1694A Righteous ProposalWMOIS::REEVE_CMon Jul 22 1991 14:2224
    I've been following this debate for the last couple of years and two
    things have been clearly established regarding Dean Smith, to wit:
    
    1. Knorr loves him.
    2. Hunt hates him.
    
    If I weren't an ACC fan, the simple solution would be to NU my way out
    of here. Unfortunately, I have to go through 50 or 60 love/hate replies
    to perhaps find one note regarding ACC sports. My fear is that, with
    the school year rapidly approaching, this drivel will continue. I would
    like to propose two alternatives to consider:
    
    1. Cease and desist. If the two prime parties (both ACC fans) would
    discontinue their endless urination on each other, perhaps the vultures
    from outside the ACC would eventually grow weary. If the fish ignore
    the bait, sooner or later the fisherman will give up and go home.
    
    2. Create a "Dean Smith LDUC" note and allow us the ability to NU this
    nonsense.
    
    Let's make the ACC note holy again!
    
    Chris
     
17.1695A blunt proposalSHALOT::MEDVIDBack to the Heavyweight JamMon Jul 22 1991 14:3513
>    2. Create a "Dean Smith LDUC" note and allow us the ability to NU this
>    nonsense.
    
    The only nonsense I see here is:
    
>    1. Knorr loves him.
    
    Actually, why don't we just change the name of this topic to the 
    "Dean Smith is a Choker and it's up to ACChris to Prove Otherwise"
    note.  If we kept this strictly to ACC related info, we'd have what
    maybe 2 or 3 replies?  8-)
    
    	--dan'l
17.1696Tried to let it rest before but ...SHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesMon Jul 22 1991 14:4822
 Hey, hold on a second, I offered a completely valid, 100% good faith
 proposal to let things cool down and we could *ALL* take a break for
 at least the summer and most of the fall until the season cranked up
 again.
 
 To no one's surprise, the "other" side then declared "victory".   I
 refuse to take the blame for this current bloodbath.   I have all the
 respect in the world for Chris Knorr as a friend, a Digital
 colleague, and, yes, as a competitor on opposite sides of this issue.  
 
 But I'll be damned if I'm going to lay down my sword and then get a
 knife in the back for it.
 
 And, for the record, I do not *hate* Dean Smith.   I enjoy seeing him
 lose and then teasing those who like to see him win.   There is a
 *HUGE* difference and I've said this I don't know how many times.
 
 The truce offer still stands.   It always has.   The faithful can
 have "Peace With Honor" if they so choose.    They've always had that
 choice but, to date, they've refused it.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1697Have you seen King Rice?HBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowMon Jul 22 1991 15:194
In other ACC news, Pete Chilcutt has signed a 3 year deal with
Sacramento. Chilcutt was the 27th overall pick. 

TTom
17.1698reset title, pleaseHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowMon Jul 22 1991 15:245
And moderator, could we change the title back to Atlantic Coast
Conference? If someone doesn't want to read this topic, they have the
guaranteed freedom to nexted unseen. 

TTom
17.1699Drop the "choker" lie and this whole thing can end ...RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Jul 22 1991 15:3318
    re: .1694 (Chris Reeve)
    
    Here, here, Chris!  I wholeheartedly agree - I *wish* we COULD git back
    to ACC news.
    
    It's only when you read the non-compromising follow-up to your note
    (.1695) by a certain anti-Dean person that you begin to understand why
    it's just not possible.  :^(
    
    A long time ago I entered the definitive Dean/System analysis note that
    highlighted his/its strengths and weaknesses.  BobHunt bought off on
    it, yet still insists on labeling Dean a "choker".
    
    Until he openly drops the intellectually dishonest "Dean is a Choker"
    crusade, there cain be no peace in the ACC note.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1700ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewMon Jul 22 1991 15:4014
    ACCrock (tm) and his erstwhile bud with the comical math models have
    lost the debate.  Pure and simple.  Wail... not quite pure, and not
    quite simple, although simplemindedness certainly was a factor, but 
    then again when Cap did his reverse 360 slam last week that was purty
    much it.  It's settled: Snuffer is NOT a great coach, he IS a_under-
    achiever.
    
    Say Frank, could you do one a your song adaptations, this one having
    to do with Reverend UnderAchievementFace to the tune of The Wanderer
    (one a my fave tunes) but renamed "The Squanderer?"
    
    Thanky.  And thank *you*, Crock (tm) !!
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1701One more time, Soup ... It's up to you now.SHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesMon Jul 22 1991 16:0934
17.1702My offer stands. Admit Dean <> Choker and it's over.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Jul 22 1991 16:4422
    No, it's not up to me.  There's nothing mutually exclusive about Dean's 
    System not being geared toward end-of-season peaks and players who've
    cost us games because of injuries, bad shooting, or illness.  NOTHING.
    
    As to Cap's "360 degree" slam-dunk, I applaud his efforts, cause they
    at least smack of intellectual honesty.  And I'm sure his numbers are
    accurate, too.  Unfortunately he's attempting to use these to disprove
    my "rarely" comment, and to that end I cannot agree.  I never said
    Carolina players don't shoot poorly.  Of course they do.  I did say
    their poor shooting rarely costs us a single game, cause The System is
    designed to work toward the high percentage shot, regardless of who the
    shooter is.
    
    Take a look at the number of FG attempts.  Only Rick Fox attempted more
    than 20 FG's.  In all other cases it was less, usually alot less. 
    You can argue that The System should've allowed these players to shoot
    more, but you cannot argue that these players poor shooting cost us the
    game.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.1703more will followHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowMon Jul 22 1991 16:585
>           -< My offer stands. Admit Dean <> Choker and it's over. >-

What a magnanimous offer.

TTom
17.1704Pretty please with molasses on it?WMOIS::REEVE_CMon Jul 22 1991 17:125
    All right, since neither one of you will agree to alternative #1 (Cease
    and Desist), how about alternative #2, move to your own private LDUC
    note?
    
    Chris
17.1705CARROL::LEFEBVREBarbarism begins at homeMon Jul 22 1991 17:213
    Hate to disappoint you, but this *is* their own LDUC.
    
    Mark.
17.1706Wow !!!SHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesMon Jul 22 1991 18:1841
17.1707Once you post it, I say we change 17 back to 'The ACC Note' :^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jul 22 1991 19:0222
    re: .-1
    
    You heard it folks, ...  IT'S OVER!  Now Bob, just for the record and
    to clear up any possibility that you was pulling our leg or not being
    intellectually honest, please extract this note below the dashes and
    repost it under your node::username.
    
    Thankee!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    I, Robert Hunt, do solemnly admit that Dean Smith is no choker. 
    His System is geared toward Consistent Excellent, not end-of-season
    peaks.  Now that I understand this I'll never again accuse him of
    being a choker, but I do reserve the right to second-guess and
    criticize The System in the future.  
    
    regards,
    
    BobHunt
17.1708when hell freezesHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowMon Jul 22 1991 19:093
Don't bother. I'll start another topic for the ACC.

TTom
17.1709Thanks again, Soup, I'm a new man !!!SHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesMon Jul 22 1991 20:2046
    I, Robert Hunt, do solemnly admit that Dean Smith is no choker. 
    His System is geared toward Consistent Excellent, not end-of-season
    peaks.  Now that I understand this I'll never again accuse him of
    being a choker, but I do reserve the right to second-guess and
    criticize The System in the future.  
    
    regards,
    
    BobHunt
 
 
 
 Addendum ...
 
 It's all so clear to me now.   Dean Smith is the most sophisticated
 and successful college basketball coach who ever lived.   We are in
 the presence of true greatness.
 
 Since "The System" is *NOT* designed to win national championships,
 it is patently unfair to call him a choker.   All those upset losses
 over these many years are not chokes.   Nay, they have all been part
 of the legend's overall excellent design for losing and we need to
 acknowledge the greatness of a man who can so consistently achieve
 his non-achieving goals.
 
 In fact, had it not been for Fred Brown, we'd be looking at sheer
 perfection in the systematic pursuit of not winning titles.
 
 He is the greatest systematic loser of all time.   
 
                         1-For-32 In '92 !!!
 
 Let's all cheer it together ...  
 
 	1-For-32 In '92 !!!  
 	1-For-32 In '92 !!! 
 	1-For-32 In '92 !!!
 
 Should he fail and thus actually win the national championship in
 1992, I promise that I will second-guess and criticize "The System"
 as hard as I can.   It's the right thing to do given that winning it
 all is not what he's supposed to do.
 
 I swear it.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1710OZARDZ::WASKOMMon Jul 22 1991 20:276
    In which case, could we get "Dean Smith Bashing, It keeps going & going
    & going ..." back as the note title?
    
    I was rollward on that one, and it is rather descriptive. :-)
    
    A&W
17.17111-For-32 In '92 !!!SHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesMon Jul 22 1991 21:095
 How about "Rick Fox Clanging" ???
 
 Just as descriptive and certainly just as repetitive.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1712HPSRAD::RIEUI want my CIPBM!Tue Jul 23 1991 11:112
       Snuffer isn't a choker, he's a gagger!
                                       Denny
17.1713Jimmy Black ?NEMAIL::LEARYMTue Jul 23 1991 11:3413
    Jeez, I don't know if this question is now appropriate in this here
    lion's den or not, but here goes:
    
    I recently found out that Notre Dame head BB coach John MacLeod named
    Jimmy Black as a new assistant. Is this the same James Black who
    played on UNC's last champeenship team?  If any of you ACC afficionados
    could enlighten me on his background (college, pro, and coaching ), I'd
    be much obliged.
    
    Danke,
    MikeL
    
    
17.1714Jimmy Black, point guardHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowTue Jul 23 1991 12:0915
Yeppir. One and the same.

Jimmy Black did indeed play on Dean's only championship. Jimmy's best
play of the game was getting out of the way of Freddy Brown's pass to
James Worthy.

Prior to this appointment, Black was assistant coach at South Carolina
but lost his job when they booted the head coach. 

Jimmy Black made his broadcasting debut, of a sort, being interviewed
during the NBA Finals. You know all those studs that played for North
Carolina fill up the NBA. Jimmy, however, was among the fortunate few to
actually win something under Dean.

TTom
17.1715Never won anything under Dean? Hahahahahahaha!!!!!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jul 23 1991 12:1511
    > among the fortunate few to actually win something under Dean.
    
    Not too many Dean grads have complained that they never won anything
    while at Carolina, I can assure you.  They won *plenty*.  (Remember,
    Dean's *averaged* 25 wins p/ year for 30+ years ...)
    
    Black is from NYC, so I suspect MacLeod is hoping he'll tap into some 
    fine New York talent and direct it to Indiana.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1716HPSRAD::RIEUI want my CIPBM!Tue Jul 23 1991 12:324
       Well, actually, when Rick Fox was interviewed up here after being
    drafted by the Celtics he said: "I haven't won anything yet, I'm still
    hungry".
                                        Denny
17.1717AXIS::ROBICHAUDTheGreatHilltopCowheadCaperTue Jul 23 1991 14:425
    	If that's the case Denny and the other UNC roundballers feel the same
    way maybe we could hold some kind of famine relief benefit for Snuffy's
    victims.
    
    				/Don
17.1718NEMAIL::LEARYMTue Jul 23 1991 15:253
    Thanks for the info on jimmy Black. Does this mean he will try to
    influence MacLeod to implement a facsimile of "The System" ?
    
17.1719Primary role will no_doubt be Recruiting.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jul 23 1991 15:417
    > Thanks for the info on jimmy Black. Does this mean he will try
    > to influence MacLeod to implement a facsimile of"The System" ?
    
    If you're a Notre Dame fan the answer is 'Only if you're lucky.'.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1720hard act to followHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowTue Jul 23 1991 15:439
The system is a little hard to implement. It takes a couple of very
fundemental steps. The first step is that you can a bench full of pro
caliber players. The next step you win a bunch of games during the
regular season. The last, and most crucial step, is that you have to then
lose to a lesser team in the tournament. 

It's this last step that is so difficult to accomplish. 

TTom
17.1721Hunt signed the form, so 177 gits deleted. I LIKE IT!!!!!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jul 23 1991 15:457
    Glad to see that 2nd 'ACC' topic got squashed. 
    
    Good work, Mr. Moderators!  Everybody knows the Dean rathole belongs in
    the heart of the ACC topic, not off on some geeky junk note sideshow.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1722TTom stumbles in his System Analysis. (I'm disapointed ...)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jul 23 1991 15:5112
    > The first step is that you can a bench full of pro caliber players.
    
    So you admit then, that Roy Williams Kansas team was loaded with
    top-quality talent then, eh?  Better watch out TTom, cause I coulda
    sworn I heard one of your brethren say UNC lost to a team far deficient
    talent-wise.
    
    I also didn't realize Eddie Fogler at Vanderbilt was so talent-laden.
    Care to name all the HS All-Americans he's signed lately?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1723HeelAid -- Feed The Famished !!!SHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesTue Jul 23 1991 15:5616
17.1724starting to sink inHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowTue Jul 23 1991 16:2218
Thanks for helping me through this, Bob. By design, yeah that's the
ticket.

And thinking about Rick Fox and "1-for-32 in 92" makes me realize just
how successful this system has been. I know that the math types might be
fault this, but another way of looking at the mastery of the system is
that only 1 out of 31 players have not performed by design. That one year
when the system failed. 

And certainly, if you want to look to a group of players that most
embodied the system, we should look at the elite group who played from 83
through 88. This group perfected the system. By design, they were oh-fer
for ACC titles and oh-fer for the big dance. And we're not talking lack
of talent: 5 first round NBA selections played in these years. There's
your pro talent factor. I bet they won a bunch of games during those
years. Step 2. And voila, step 3. Q.E.D.

TTom
17.1725"He (Dean) choked cause he wouldn't take me out."RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jul 23 1991 16:3911
    > Rick nows the empty tofu taste of Snuff's underachieving cuisine.
    
    Gotta be one of your more comical remarks, Ketch.  Imagine RickFox, who
    just shot a miserable 5-for-22 that included missed wide open shot
    after missed wide open shot (including some from with 3-5 feet of the
    basket) blaming Dean for "choking" the game away!!!
    
    Haw haw!!!  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1726I do think Black will be good for the programNEMAIL::LEARYMTue Jul 23 1991 16:5520
    Thanks Chris,
     
    If the end result is champeenships, to which UNC has striven but has
    rarely achieved , then my response would be akin to " With a friend
    like that ( the System ) who needs enemies."  However, if the goal
    is year-to year competetiveness, quasi-excellence, and tournament
    appearances, then Notre Dame's BBall program ( much less publicized
    and emphasized than its Football program ) might be served well by
    something like " The System " with a hopefully  occasional BBall
    champeenship. Let me ask you this; is " The System " good for UNC
    where the emphasis and publicity is solely on the basketball program ?
    Are the alumni up in arms about the lack of championships under Smith ?
    
    Hmmm, let me reflect on its supposed worth to Notre Dame.
    
    
    MikeL
    Not only a Notre Dame fan but alumnus ( many smileys )
    
      
17.1727Dean's The Greatest -- 30 Non-Titles In 31 Years !!!SHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesTue Jul 23 1991 17:0424
 Hey, Soup, Fox himself said he was still hungry, not me.  Guess he
 didn't have Dean proofread his comments for him.   Plus, in keeping
 with the agreement we've now struck, I'm surprised that you mention
 the "choke" word.   We all know now that Snuff doesn't choke.   Never
 has, never will.  "The System" loses these games _by design_.   You
 said so yourself.
 
 You see, TTom, it's quite simple, in fact.   I wonder why I never saw
 this before.   "The System" is set up to win lots of regular season
 games with megatons of talent and then come up short at title time. 
 That's the Faithful Formula in their own words.   And, Dean's failed
 only once at this when, to his astonishment, his naive freshman
 spoiled the plan that 1982 night in Non-Norfolk.
 
 In reality, he's really a quite superb 30-for-31 over his long and
 storied career.   We should now change the slogan for nexted year ...
 
                        31-For-32 In '92 !!!
                        31-For-32 In '92 !!!
                        31-For-32 In '92 !!!
 
 What an incredible coach !!!   No wonder he's in The Hall.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1728I'm A Poet And I Know ItANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewTue Jul 23 1991 17:1835
    1-for-32 in 92!
    
       another Rick Fox will just keep on clanging and clanging
    
    1-for-32 in 92!
    
       in relentless pursuit of TV exposure and Consistent Excellence
    
    1-for-32 in 92!
    
       more postgame ref/police attack abuse and banging
    
    1-for-32 in 92!
    
       even to our leader BobHunt The System now makes perfect sense
    
    1-for-32 in 92!
    
       a_oil tanker glut of HS All-America on the bench left hanging
    
    1-for-32 in 92!
    
       a_Excellent regular season, 3 tourney wins, high winning per cents
    
    1-for-32 in 92!
    
       ol' Snuffer'll queer-steer a course that'll leave his Heels dangling
       
    1-for-32 in 92!
    
       MrT sneers from his MetroDome box, and sez, "there's no mo' suspense" 
    
    
    Big10 Tom
       
17.1729UNC fans upset with Dean? Uh, hardly.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jul 23 1991 18:0117
    > I'm A Poet And I Know It
    
    Ah, a poem my 4-year old would be proud of.  (How'd it make *you*
    feel?!)
    
    
    > by _design_
    
    Yet another failed attempt at logic by KingHunt.  Who the hail ever
    said it was by design?  I sure didn't.  All I said was The System is
    designed to maximize consistent play.  The by-product of this approach
    is Consistent Excellence (11 straight Sweet 16's) at the expense of
    end-of-season peaks.  (3 Titles, but loads of early-tournament
    mega-underachievements.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1730Holy Cow, I've seen the LIGHTCAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchTue Jul 23 1991 18:0621
>    > I'm A Poet And I Know It
>    
>    Ah, a poem my 4-year old would be proud of.  (How'd it make *you*
>    feel?!)


It was one a them ABSTRACT thangs.  Sorta like that fellow Ginsberg
makes up....
    
    
This has been an amazing day.  I mean I never realized until Bob
Hunt's infallable logic and clear description removed the scales
from my eyes.

All these years I thought that Snuffy really WANTED to win those
Champeenships...  And here I find out that he didn't want to AT ALL....

Holy Cow, I'd better find another poem to "adapt".....


'Saw
17.1731Another poor outing for MrT; the drought continues ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jul 23 1991 18:117
    > It was one a them ABSTRACT thangs.
    
    Quit makin' excuses for the wash-up MrT, will ya Frank.  It's
    sickening, not to mention pathetic.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1732Snuff <> ChokerSHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesTue Jul 23 1991 18:1322
17.1733MrT in the Bop Era....CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchTue Jul 23 1991 18:3727
First off, I wasn't defending MrT.  I was just stating that his poem, to
me, looked like one of those abstract things.

Like I could see MrT, with goatee and beret, a guy on the bongos and
a guy on recorder backing him up.  MrT is in front of the microphone, with
a pair of RayBan shades, and an unfiltered Camel dangling from his lip.

He begins reciting the Litany of Snuffy...

Way too cool, man, way too cool....



Second, you did say it was by design.  That's what you've been saying
all day.  I may be just a Principal Henchman, but I know when I see someone
being hoisted by their own petard, and you Crockmeister, have been
hoisted high and hard.

You can't have it both ways.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.
You can't say it isn't designed to win champeenships, and then have us
believe that it's Snuffer's intent to win champeenships.

I mean, that's ultimately like wanting to be a virgin and have sex too....



'Saw
17.1734Teamwork !!!SHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesWed Jul 24 1991 12:1011
17.1735RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jul 24 1991 12:357
    Okay, I confess.  The System is designed for Consistent Excellence,
    not end-of-season peaks.
    
    Happy?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1737ACCrock (tm) speaks!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Jul 24 1991 14:1652
Seasonus Interruptus and Premature Ejectulation?!  You are on a ROLL 
boss.

>Clap.  Clap.

Wouldn't that be CLOP CLOP given the queer nature of the Star Hell
program?

I just had a lengthy VMS Phone talk with ACCrock (tm) and hereunder
please find a_accurate (this is not a college prank) summary a what
he said in a much too rare moment of private candor:

- Snuffy has done more with even less talent than Bob the last several
  years.  Now, forget that Bob won a Title in 87, and get this: He
  concedes the 6-2 forwards and the missing centers but sez that the
  Star Hells have been extraordinarily slow to the extent that the 
  Hells' talent quotient has been even lower!

- He said that the Antis (me excepted) were lightweights when it comes
  to college hoops and that you Antis are pro sports fanatics who drop
  into this note for respite.

- He said that the NCAA tourney is the "dessert" each college season
  and that the regular season was its "meat and potatoes."  He then went
  on to praise the money-grubbing spectacle ACC tourney in comparison 
  to the NCAAs.  What do we call this money-grubbing spectacle, the
  "midseason?"  I said that this money-grubbing spectacle was even more
  meaningless than the NHL regular season and he obliquely agreed, but
  based on the fack that only rich folk attend this money-grubbing 
  spectacle and they don't yell loud enough.

- He said that once the Snuffer surpasses Rupp's all-time wins record
  he will have "eclipsed him," this ignoring that Adolph won 4 Titles
  and Snuffy only 1.

- He again invoked the "conflict argument" where somehow regular season
  success and player development work against Titles.  When I axed for
  a pacific example, he didn't even bother obfuscating.

- He said that in relation to Reverend UnderAchievementFace Bob's early
  tourney exits make it all a wash.  Now, I classify the Cleveland State
  loss as a mild shocker (IU's team had big holes, cokehaid Mouse was on
  fire, musta had some La Paz flake that night), but Richmond that year
  had already beaten Tech and as I remember two other top 20 squads - and
  Bob had a team on the floor with a 6-2 no-jump white guy ex-reserve
  guard at power forward.  Bob's teams usually lose in the Round of 32,
  it seems, and then go on to lose to a superior talent squad or occassionally
  pick up a Title.  (Note: "Ocassionally" here would mean every 6.7 years.)




17.1738ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Jul 24 1991 14:4830
    >Happy?
    
    No, I ain't happy.
    
    Ain't cuz you have STEAL to explain how it is pursuit a excellence
    in any wadiminishes Titular performance.  I would seem that the 
    opposite would be the case for the Star Hells, given the oodles a
    talent and alleged player developme thon about be the basis for 
    this oft-cited C- you always ramble on so abo so.  Where's the 
    conflict?                                                 
    
    And even  there were such a conflict, how is it others seem not 
    to encounter it (be pacific).  And wouldn't this allege"sacrifice"
    made by this selfless "great" coach be overcome in a huge sample of
    31 tournament entries?
    
    Isn't it much more likely that the  winning percentages and tourney
    appearances and early round victories (all of whichave been more
    or less matched by many other coaches, allowing for number a years
    coachingin compariosn with the pathetic paucity a Titles cain only
    be explaineby a_explosive combination a high concentraration talent 
    and coaching that becomuite unstable and volatile when subjected
    to highly pressurized conditions?  [yes]
    
    I don't expect a_honest answefrom you, for these are difficult 
    questions that demand the highest order a Objectivity and Intellectual
    Honesty.  Please refer to your dictionary to find what these things
    are.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1739RHETT::KNORRMarx,Lenin,Stalin,MrTWed Jul 24 1991 15:01100
> I just had a lengthy VMS Phone talk with ACCrock (tm) and hereunder
> please find a_accurate (this is not a college prank) 

Now I wonder what that 'college prank' comment is in reference to?  Haw
haw haw!!!!


> Snuffy has done more with even less talent than Bob the last several
> years.  Now, forget that Bob won a Title in 87, and get this: He
> concedes the 6-2 forwards and the missing centers but sez that the
> Star Hells have been extraordinarily slow to the extent that the 
> Hells' talent quotient has been even lower!

Is there anything worse than a representative of one of the Top 5
college hoops programs in the USA moaning and groaning about their
'lack of talent'?  You'd think with the nations top coach they'd be
able to go out and sign a stud or two, now wouldn't you?  

Well the truth is they *have* been able to sign *plenty* of top-shelf
studs.  More than enough, actually.  You don't win the Big10 and finish
in the top 5 in the AP/UPI poll with smoke and mirrors.  But yet another
early-round NCAA bow-out and we're back to moaning and groaning about
'lack of talent'.  Tell us, MrT, how come Bob cain win so many regular
season games with no talent, yet be unable to accomplish the same task
during the NCAA Tournament?


> He said that the Antis (me excepted) were lightweights when it comes
> to college hoops and that you Antis are pro sports fanatics who drop
> into this note for respite.

I'll admit to being somewhat perplexed by certain guys who went to ACC schools,
who understand the *intense* rivalries that go on, who supposedly understand
the tradition of the ACC, ... who insist on defining college basketball
strictly in terms of the NCAA Tournament.  


> He said that the NCAA tourney is the "dessert" each college season
> and that the regular season was its "meat and potatoes."  

A fine analogy which I stand by.  


> He then went on to praise the money-grubbing spectacle ACC tourney in 
> comparison to the NCAAs.  

This is a bald-faced lie.  I NEVER SAID THIS, or even implied it!
The ACC tourney is most definitely money-grubbing.  It's also highly
entertaining.  It's also highly insignificant, IMO.  Nevertheless the
powers-that-be continue to consider its winner its "Champion", which
is basically a concession to big-money.  IMO, the regular season winner
should be the "Champion", but, as I've been so-often reminded in SPORTS
(always after Carolina has won the regular-season title and lost in
the tourney) these ain't the rules we live by.


> based on the fack that only rich folk attend this money-grubbing 
>  spectacle and they don't yell loud enough.

I ain't rich (monetarily) and I was there.  I yelled plenty loud enough,
too.  (Drove a_couple_a Duke nerds in front of me *NUTS*.  Heh heh!!)
But by-and-large, you are correct.  The fat-cat alums are there for
show, and generally sit on their fat-cat butts during the games.  And
yes, UNC fat-cat alums are probably the worst of the bunch, which is
a fact that hardly bothers me at all, considering that (as you so-often
love to point out) I ain't a UNC alum!


> He said that once the Snuffer surpasses Rupp's all-time wins record
> he will have "eclipsed him," this ignoring that Adolph won 4 Titles
> and Snuffy only 1.

Actually I already consider Dean > Rupp, considering all the cupcakes
Rupp used to schedule.  Titles in Rupp's day were a completely different
ballgame.  There was nowhere close to the kind of parity that exists
in todays game, where usually at least 20 teams have a legitimate shot
at a Title.


> He again invoked the "conflict argument" where somehow regular season
> success and player development work against Titles.  When I axed for
> a pacific example, he didn't even bother obfuscating.

The System makes no distinction between the regular season and the NCAA
Tournament, I'll grant you.  Consistent Excellence is always the name
of the game, with fantastic player development a very nice by-product.


> Bob had a team on the floor with a 6-2 no-jump white guy ex-reserve
> guard at power forward.  Bob's teams usually lose in the Round of 32,
> it seems, and then go on to lose to a superior talent squad or occassionally
> pick up a Title.  (Note: "Ocassionally" here would mean every 6.7 years.)

More no-talent bellyaching.  RALPH!!!!   Cap, if you're out their reading,
cain't you admit to a little bit of stomach-upset over MrT's constant
poor-mouthing of your beloved Hoosiers?!


- ACC Chris
    
17.1740Snuff needs ClearasilSHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesWed Jul 24 1991 15:4761
17.1741actual basketball infoHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowWed Jul 24 1991 15:4716
Donald Williams, headed to No Carolina, was MVP for a scholastic all-star
game played in Greensboro. He scored 29 points on 10 of 23 from the
field. He played the 2 guard slot. When he won the MVP he was booed. The
fans - and the media - felt that many of his shots were "questionable".
Sounds like trouble with Dean. Unless of course he gets tapped as the
Rick Fox Memorial Designated Clanker his senior year. His first half,
3-for-9 show he has the potential.

Meanwhile, on the No Carolina front, Kenny Harris is reported a waffling
on his decision to transfer. Having already been bad mouthed by the Tar
Heel faithful for the transfer, maybe he had the right idea all along.

Here's hoping both of them realize that a Championship is merely an
end-of-season peak. 

TTom
17.1742Hate to lose our quickest player ...RHETT::KNORRMarx,Lenin,Stalin,MrTWed Jul 24 1991 16:5114
    > Kenny Harris is reported a waffling on his decison to transfer
    
    Oooo, good news at last!!  If this rumor proves true-to-form, our
    backup PG problems will be solved.  
    
    As to Donald Williams, I'm not concerned.  If he doesn't realize by now
    that he's not gonna have an unlimited license-to-shoot when he puts on
    his baby blues, he'll learn quickly enough.  (Like when he finds the
    pine after an ill-advised shot.)   He's gonna have his work cut out for
    him to earn significant PT next year.  The key will be (as always at
    UNC) how well he can/cannot play man-to-man defense.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1743MrT's small reply...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Jul 24 1991 17:18194
>RHETT::KNORR "Marx,Lenin,Stalin,MrT"              

Marx was among the greatest geniuses of the 19th century and a great 
thinker, analyst, and theorist who certainly stands above, say, Freud,
whose legacy to uis diminution of individualism, medical shamanism,
and pop psychology.  Karl gave Western thought a much needed update 
that moved political philosophy in a position to deal with industrial-
urban society.  His writings didn't call for communism as much as the
mild socialism seen in developed Asia and Western Europe.  Thank you 
for the flattering comparison, Crock (tm).

Lenin was a great leader, a political genius who brought Russia into
modern times by throwing off the yoke of Czarism and feudalism 128
years after that had been done in Paris.  Victims of Western media
propaganda aren't told that Lenin was moving his new nation away from
collectivization and central control (what he termed "the dictatorship
of the proletariat") after the Bolsheviek's earlier failed experiments.
Had Stalin not seized control through the plot he pulled off as Lenin
lay on his deathbed (Stalin was the last person V.I. wanted to see
succeed him) the Soviet Union would've ended up looking radically
different from, and much better off than, the mess Gorby was left to dimantle.  

Again, Crock (tm), thank you for the flattering comparison!  As for Stalin, 
he was a paranoiac mass murderer and a_incompetent to boot.  He created
poor Gorby's mess.  But I take no offense at this terribly unflatterring
comparison, Crock (tm), for having compared the evil Uncle Joe to V.I. 
and Karl surely means the association you make is formed in ingnorance.

But Joe was a_animal.   So here's the depiction you make of MrT, and it's 
a dangblamed *complimentary* one!:

Intellect - Karl Marx     ]
Ego       - V.I. Lenin    ]---> MrT: Modern Main, Thinker, Leader
Id        - Josef Stalin  ] 

>> Snuffy has done more with even less talent than Bob the last several
>> years.  Now, forget that Bob won a Title in 87, and get this: He
>> concedes the 6-2 forwards and the missing centers but sez that the
>> Star Hells have been extraordinarily slow to the extent that the 
>> Hells' talent quotient has been even lower!

>Is there anything worse than a representative of one of the Top 5
>college hoops programs in the USA moaning and groaning about their
>'lack of talent'?  You'd think with the nations top coach they'd be
>able to go out and sign a stud or two, now wouldn't you?  

It's established fack that Joe Hillman played power forward in the 
tourney that year.  The announcers, writers, and other coaches remarked
on that, much as Bob's relatively poor recruiting has, and the reasons
for it, been commented on ad nauseum in the media.  But at least Joe
was athletic.  Even more commented on (even to this day) is when the
big-butted flat-footed glacially slow Dan Dakich matched something only
one other has done (guess who) and held Michael to 20.

More important, Bob's talent woes are irrelevant to the Bob > Snuffy
debate, for no excuses are necssary when one has outdone all his peers. 

>Well the truth is they *have* been able to sign *plenty* of top-shelf
>studs.  More than enough, actually.  You don't win the Big10 and finish
>in the top 5 in the AP/UPI poll with smoke and mirrors.  But yet another
>early-round NCAA bow-out and we're back to moaning and groaning about
>'lack of talent'.  

>Tell us, MrT, how come Bob cain win so many regular
>season games with no talent, yet be unable to accomplish 

Bob's never had "no talent."  He's had good, even great, talent filling
about half his bench over the years.  The other half a the pine plank 
has been filled with people with no business in the Big10 talent-wise.
This has left Bob over the years with starters playing out of position,
or in position but without the Title level talent.  Yet he's outdone all
a his peers...

>I'll admit to being somewhat perplexed by certain guys who went to ACC schools,
>who understand the *intense* rivalries that go on, who supposedly understand
the tradition of the ACC,

>... who insist on defining college basketball
>strictly in terms of the NCAA Tournament.  

A debate coach would call the above passage "obfuscation by deflection."
Nobody has defined college basketball (coaching greatness) strictly in terms
of NCAA Titles.  What HAS been done is to define all-time coaching Greatness
in terms of how a coach has done on the game's highest platform agasinst the
best under the most pressurized conditions.  The NCAA is held to establish
Champions, the number of which we Antis use to establish Greatness by simple
extension of the NCAA's (and everybody else's) stated definition of why the
tournament is held and for what purpose.

You evade the question: Why only once every 32 years (and growing)?

>> He said that the NCAA tourney is the "dessert" each college season
>> and that the regular season was its "meat and potatoes."  

>A fine analogy which I stand by.  

And so we return to the crux (or, in your case, the crotch) that is the
central issue and essence a the Bob > Snuffer debate.  The entirity of
each college hoops season is defined by players, writers, coaches, fans,
et al) in terms of the whole.  

You make the NCAAs sound like the Pro Bowl.  You describe the game as 
if it's a course stage meaconference as hors d'oeuvre, conference
and maybe money-grubbing spectacle as entree, and championship tournament
as a peaches and cream afterthought significant only in the manners with
which it is consumed.

Your three course meal analogy leaves flatulent and unable to digest what
Greatness is all about.  The true analogy would one of a mountain climber
attacking the highest peak, the coach the leader of the expedition, which
starts by clambering over 20,000' foothills, then across treacherous 
glaciers fraught with deep crevasses, and finally up vertical rock faces
where a single mistake means total elimination.

Greatness is about triumph over the competition, rising above all the others 
and up to the standard of Greatness established who managed similar expeditions
punctuated by successful ascents... triumph over mere Excllence - and rising
above the game itself.  

Coming back to earth, if one attempts the assault 31 times, with more and 
better sherpas and better equipment, and gets to the top only once, then
Greatness has not been attained.  This is because the Pantheon is built upon
the mountain, the Peak.  Excellence resides only in a posh suburb down in the
valley.

Right now poor Snuffer is rubbing elbows with a sub-Pentheon crowd populated 
by such ilk as "coach" John Stompshim, Rollie Massamino, Norm Stewart, and 
others.  Not a bad crowd, and not a crowd he looks good among, having 
outrecruited all a them and seen fit to name a False Temple after himself... 
after 31 frustrating,
long, years of futility.

>powers-that-be continue to consider its winner its "Champion", which
>is basically a concession to big-money.  IMO, the regular season winner
>should be the "Champion", 

Agreed.  The regular season double round robin (or some variant of it) is
the best measure of performance at the regional level.  In the same way 
the seeded single elimination tourney format is the surest measure of 
performance at the national level, which you ignore.

>> based on the fack that only rich folk attend this money-grubbing 
>>  spectacle and they don't yell loud enough.

>I ain't rich (monetarily) and I was there.

So what?  I believe you were talking about the general ambience caused
by the predominant demographics.

> He said that once the Snuffer surpasses Rupp's all-time wins record
> he will have "eclipsed him," this ignoring that Adolph won 4 Titles
> and Snuffy only 1.

>Actually I already consider Dean > Rupp, considering all the cupcakes
>Rupp used to schedule.  Titles in Rupp's day were a completely different
>ballgame.  There was nowhere close to the kind of parity that exists
>in todays game, where usually at least 20 teams have a legitimate shot
>at a Title.

Really?  Seems to me that the Wooden era was one with much less parity
than Rupp's era.  The dastisticks (tm) would seem to bear this out.  Be
careful on this one, Crock (tm), it has a bear trap laying in it!

>> He again invoked the "conflict argument" where somehow regular season
>> success and player development work against Titles.  When I axed for
>> a pacific example, he didn't even bother obfuscating.

>The System makes no distinction between the regular season and the NCAA
>Tournament, I'll grant you.  Consistent Excellence is always the name
>of the game, with fantastic player development a very nice by-product.

But fantastically developed players, especially ones from premier recruiting
classes, who consistently play excellently in tourneys they attempt to win
wouldn't need to make (your) distinciton between "meat and potatoes" and
mere peaches and cream, now would they?

                   "I still haven't won anything."

                                       Brick Fox, 1992

>> Bob had a team on the floor with a 6-2 no-jump white guy ex-reserve
>> guard at power forward.  Bob's teams usually lose in the Round of 32,
>> it seems, and then go on to lose to a superior talent squad or occassionally
>> pick up a Title.  (Note: "Ocassionally" here would mean every 6.7 years.)

>More no-talent bellyaching.  RALPH!!!!   Cap, if you're out their reading,
>cain't you admit to a little bit of stomach-upset over MrT's constant
>poor-mouthing of your beloved Hoosiers?!

I mention this factual information only to help us compare Bob > Snuffer.
Other than that, there's nothing else to explain, except how cain a guy go
to t top of the Peak once every 6.7 instead of, say, once every 32.

17.1744ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Jul 24 1991 18:2266
    I don't "complain" about Indiana's spotty talent.  Why should I 
    complain?  I've gotten all I need out a Bob as a_alumnus (Big10
    Titles, winning % in regular season, one of the best winning %
    in the NCAAs, but most of all 3)... but I want more.
    
    I bring up the spotty talent fack only cuz our friend Crock (tm)
    here obstinately refuses to come to terms with the glut talent 
    fack for Snuffer.
    
    Believe me, Bob.  We Hoosier alums talk every summer about the 
    prospects for the coming year.  There's always the fear that Bob
    (not you, the Pantheon-dweller Bob) his recruits will turn out to
    be stiffs, tranfer material, projects.  We know how low it cain go
    cuz Bob has finished in the 2nd division when this happens.  The
    other thing we worry about is our potential for a Title.  No, not
    the Big10 Title though that's a prize, but Bob's 4th Title, the one
    that'll put on par with Rupp (who right now lives upstairs from Bob
    in the Pantheon) and ahaid a the Kaintucks at 7-6.
    
    What we really wanna know is we'll we have a shot at running through
    the tourney and winning it all.  IU is tied for 2nd with Kaintuck 
    behind UCLA.  We'd like to catch up sooner or later.  
    
    We're skeert a the likes a Matt Nover and Chris Lawson and others 
    like him.  Bob won't recruit certain kinds of kids and refuses to go
    national in recruting as everybody else has.  Michigan is the top
    recruiting program in the midwest, and OSU may take over too.
    
    So this means that recruiting is the focus.  Bob's won a Title with
    a slapdash roster so the question isn't whether he cain coach but 
    will he have talent like that of 76 and 81.  If he does, watch out.
    
    Last year he didn't.  This year he might, although it'll need some
    time to develop.  This year should be Bob's best talent since 81,
    11 years ago (we're going into the 92 season).  The best by far 
    during those 11 years, during the middle of which Bob won his 3rd
    Title, btw.
    
    This year's top recruit, National Honor Society 6-9 200 Alan Henderson,
    is a finesse player who likes to play facing the basket.  He doesn't
    want to play center but may have to.  He'll give the Hoosiers a quality
    3rd foward for the first time in memory.  He's the biggest recruit Bob
    has landed since Isiah (unless you bought the hype about Damon).
           
    Alan is painfully skinny but has great hands quick feet and a good feel
    for the game and has a nice shot.  He has excellent timing on his shot
    blocking.
    
    Todd Lindemann is another painfully skinny kid, but this one 7-1.  He's
    a_open question cuz he played against lesser HS comp in the UP of Mich.
    and has looked lackluster in the big summer All-Star games.  But in the
    absence of any other true center Bob will try to start him for the 
    rebounds and inside D.
    
    Brian Evans is a 6-7 widebody who may be good or may be another role 
    player setting picks and supplying good floor game in relief.  This is
    important, cuz last year Nokes, Lawson, and others couldn't do this.
    
    So, going into 92 we look better talent-wise now than at anytime than
    since Bob was halfway through his 20 career.  The team is only a long
    shot for the Title (although they'll be ranked in the top 3 preseason)
    because the three freshmen are gonna have a hard time playing key roles
    along the front-line, especially with Anderson's lower back condition
    and Calbert still learning the floor game (rebounding and defense).
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1745RHETT::KNORRMarx,Lenin,Stalin,MrTWed Jul 24 1991 18:5717
    > The team is only a long shot for the Title (although they'll be
    > ranked in the top 3 preseason)
    
    This statement sums up this whole debate nicely.  IU will be
    ranked in the Top 3 in the USA and will no-doubt bow out fairly early
    in the tourney.  Carolina will be ranked maybe 10th (certainly nowhere
    near the Top 5) and will be knocking on the door to the Final 4 come
    tournament time.
    
    Yet, when it's all said-and-done, Bob will have overachieved and Dean
    underachieved, according to The Weasels.
    
    I rest my case, and this is my last note on the subject for a very long
    time.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1746I cain see why you're quitting this subject, CrockANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Jul 24 1991 19:3539
    YOU are the Weasel, O slippery one!  BOY are you oily, Crock (tm).
    Think a it: We're talking a stastistically significant sample that
    is authoritative in its finality, yet you take a scenario (i.e., Bob
    having parity in talent with Snuffy) seen once every 10 years and you 
    come in wheedling about how the overachiever/underachiever career
    assessment compariosnover 20-30 years is made on unfair terms.
    
    Get this willya: Bob's a_overachiever in comparison to EVERYBODY and
    that he overachieved relative to the talent can only add, not detract,
    from what he did regardless a the talent level.
    
    Bob has bowed out of the tourney early only a few times in 20 years.
    The fact that he's got one a the three best overall NCAA tournament
    winning% is proof a that.  And the idea isn't to come "knocking on
    the door to the Final 4" but to open it and go in.  You keep saying
    that Bob is a poor coach cause he almost always bows out early yet
    have never supplied your dastisticks (tm) to prove that this is so.
    The Kansas loss was a regional final, wasn't it?  That's not an early
    round exit.  Same with the 84 loss to Virginia.  Same with the 75
    loss to Kaintuck.  Indiana almost always makes it into the
    subregionals and often into the regional finals.  
    
    Also, in 17 or so trips Bob has made it into the Final Four 4 times, 
    which is about 1-for 4.  I wonder if Snuffy's Final Four us as high
    as Bob's?  Important question to a guy like ACCrock (tm) who puts
    so much stock in the penultimate.
    
    Bob's overachiever status relates not to his spotty talent (which
    indeed does apply to most of the Bob > Snuffer debate, albeit not
    this year as you falsely imply)... but to the fack that's he's
    achieved more than anybody else during the last 20 years regardless
    of talent.
    
    Snuffles gits one in 31 with oodles, Bob gits 3 in 20 with spottys,
    thrice in 20 Bob has oodle-parity, and Crock (tm) concludes that
    this means that Bob is held to a lower standard and Snuffles to a
    higher one!  All this based on 3 of 20 at parity!
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1747Dean's been to EIGHT Final 4's, BTW.RHETT::KNORRMarx,Lenin,Stalin,MrTWed Jul 24 1991 19:5010
    Ah, I git it.  Bob deserves kudos for all his Final 4's, regional
    finals, and Sweet 16 appearances, but Dean deserves nothing but
    criticism for the exact same thing.
    
    Hey, sounds about as fair as anything else I've heard lately.
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1748RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOJD KNOWS Kathy Ireland!Wed Jul 24 1991 20:3310
    So, Dean is 1 for 8 in final fours.  That's pretty disgusting.  Choke
    big time, doesn't he.   
    
    BTW, ACCrips - I believe the tarhells will be ranked in the top 3 at
    the start of nexted season.  
    
    ISn't the greatest frosh recruiting team of all time now the greatest
    sophomore team of all time????
    
    JD
17.1749where O where is this conflict a his...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Jul 24 1991 23:5516
    Snuffer is 1-for-8 in the Big Show, Bob is 3-5.  To me the latter is
    a helluva lot better than the former.  Now then, this is a big loss
    for you in the daststicks (tm) department, cuz it is YOU who has been
    harping on for 3 years about consistent penultimate excellence.  
    
    You're right: Bob deserves praise for his penultimate successes and
    Snuffy deserves to be excoriated.  This is cuz:
    
    1) Bob is running at 6.7 and not 31.
    2) Bob didn't have the glutunous oodles.
    3) Bob ain't gone off and named a_arena after himself.
    
    Where's the conflict, Crock (tm)?  Where's the conflict a tween player
    development and regular season success and NCAA success?  Ou!
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1750ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Jul 24 1991 23:564
    Excuse me.  Bob is 3-4 in FF appearances/Title and not the worse
    3-5 that I had misspoke.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1751CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchThu Jul 25 1991 11:0531
Well, I for one see it this way:

	Bob comes into the Final Four with not much talent.  Bob walks
	away with 3 titles.

	Snuffer comes in with mega-talent, and manages one title, and that
	a tainted, unclean, leperous title, because had not Fred Brown made
	one leetle mistake, the title would not have come.  In fack, I'll
	bet ol' Snuffer went over and smooched Fred's peepee afterwards.

It's pretty simple.  Left to his own devices, Snuffer is incapable of
winning the big one.  Why?  Because it takes the ability to improvise,
overcome and adapt.  That is what coaching is about.  

And really, the gripe isn't so much with Snuffer, the gripe is with the
Hare Smithnas(tm), who would crowd around the bottom o' the outhouse and
fall down in worship as the Snuffmeister evacuates his bowels.


For example, I'm a NY Giants fan.  A couple of years ago they won their
division.  One could say therefore, that they had a_excellent season.
But in the playoffs they had a heinous, choke-filled loss to the Rams.
Did I sit here and laquer my woodie over Parcells and the boys, and say
"Oh, Phil Simms had a zit on his ass that day, so they lost because of
it"?  Nope, I saw the loss for what it was - underachievement and choking.

Snuffer's record overall is quite good.  But Snuffer is the Wade Boggs
of college basketball coaches.   Everything he does he does to pad
his own personal record....

'Saw
17.1752CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchThu Jul 25 1991 11:169
A Bob Knight quote, which means a lot to me:


	The will to win is not as important as the will to
	prepare to win.....


hth,
'Saw
17.1753ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Jul 25 1991 13:2420
    All I care about for next year is Titles.  Big10 Title would be 
    nice, and with Bob at a high water mark talent-wise that should
    be well within reach.
    
    But the point, the whole point, the Goal, the Meaning, is the
    *national* Title.  The one that goes into that "G" ledger that
    they'll look at 20 years from now.  Which coach pushed Wooden,
    or even caught him?  Which school pushed UCLA or even caught 
    them?  
    
    Who came out on top in post-disco era college hoops?  Who had
    Greatness?
    
    (Note: These questions don't involve overall winning% or Excellent
    Losing in the Regional Finals, they involve winning the prize that
    the organizers turn everybody loose on at the outset.  These questions
    involve the basic fundamental honesty to admit what the real point a
    a season is.)
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom
17.1754It's what you do with what you gotSHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesThu Jul 25 1991 13:3735
17.1755A moment's indulgence...CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchThu Jul 25 1991 13:4643
Well, if Boss Bob Hunt will grant me an few moments indulgence here, 
I'll put this into a very personal perspective.

Last season, the Wanderers were in a lot of tournaments.  Invariably, in
all of them, they finished second.  In ALL cases except one, they finished
second to teams of LESSER caliber.

Did we choke?  Could be.  Did we underachieve?  Most definitely.  Did we
have a lot of talent?  Without a doubt.

Now (important point here).

Did the Wanderers sit around, and blow sunshine up our collective posteriors
and say how much we'd accomplished, and how our Finals losses were excellent
losses?

NO.

What we did do was focus on the important game, the MOST important game,
which is the Finals of the tournaments we were in.  To this point, the
record is MOST impressive.

In every tournament that we finished SECOND last year, this year we've
won.  The New England Tournament, the Mad River Tournament etc etc etc.
The one final test will come on August 24th....the Monmouth Tournament.

Not satisfied to be anything less than the best, the Wanderers improved their
focus.


In talking with Cahal, the fellow who transfered from Dallas, he told me
that Dallas made the Final Four this year because they lifted their focus
from just winning the regional to wanting to win the whole enchilada. 

Perhaps that a lesson that Dean-a-rama should look closely at.


Thanks Bob, for allowing me the rugby digression, but you have to admit
it does nicely illustrate my point......



'Saw
17.1756ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Jul 25 1991 15:0522
    The key point is the level at which the "G" comparison is made.
    
    When comparing to other coaches as far as excellence and general
    success, then winning% and appearances and early round E-Ls are
    indeed valid measures.  The level of comparison is the "E" level
    and that's valid.
    
    BUT, when comparing to the Greats who conquered the Peak frequently
    enough to be highlighted in the Annals is to measure Titles against
    time as the only valid measure.  The level of comparison here is 
    the rarified "G" level.
    
    So why cain't Crock (tm) and Air Snide (tm) make that elevator ride
    from the penultimate "E" level to the "G" string?  Why do they foresake
    highlighting the Annals for merely highlighting the Anal?  
    
    Cuz a Intellectually Dishonesty, that's why.
    
    And talent level is wholly irrelevant to this argument, except to help
    explain the reason for and depth of Failure that so obviously is there.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1757Still more ...SHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesThu Jul 25 1991 16:0631
17.1758Sad commentary on the state of some people's mindsCSCOA1::ROLLINS_RThu Jul 25 1991 17:0211
     While I personally feel that Bob Knight is a better game coach
     than Dean Smith, I think the following comment is indeed a sad
     commentary on today's collegiate athletic programs:

>                                                           These questions
>    involve the basic fundamental honesty to admit what the real point a
>    a season is.)
    

     Isn't a shame to get to these midwestern schools and come away with that
     kind of an attitude regarding intercollegiate athletics.
17.1759CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchThu Jul 25 1991 17:4428
> 'Saw, one of the perqs of Principal Henchman status is unlimited
> rugby analogy digression.   You're on your own to use your best
> judgement.    Every now and then in small doses is fine.  It's when
> you start going off into some of those "Ah, Rugby! Ah, Life!" chariot
> rides that we'll have to pull you back in some.   You understand, I
> hope.  :-) :-) :-)

Thanks Chief.  I'll not abuse the privilege...

 
> It's what he does *NOT* do (with what he has had to do it with) that
> keeps him from the *GREATNESS* level.   The Hall Of Fame is for the
> famous.   To Snuff's benefit, it's not called the Hall Of Greatness;
> otherwise I seriously question his credentials.    
> 
> He's famous, yes he is.    He's excellent, yes he is.   But, he ain't
> a water-walker, no he's not.
 
And added to that, it's the blind, utterly non-thinking worship from the
Baby Blue Faithful, who try to tell us over and over and over again
that Snuff's regular season excellence makes up for the big ol'
empty spot where all those champeenship trophies should be...

That's a large part of what stirs the Non-Faithful to action in this
note.


'Saw
17.1760ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Jul 25 1991 18:0216
    >Isn't a shame [sic] to get to these midwestern schools and come away
    >with that kind of an attitude regarding intercollegiate athletics.
    
    Oh bullshit, Rolly.  Once you commit to playing, the idea is to win.
    The students want to win.  The coaches.  The AD administrators.  The
    alums.  The media and advertisers (who fund it all) emphasize winning.
    
    Much as poor ACCrock (tm) is too chicken to point out the conflict 
    between player development/regular season success and Winning; so too
    will you prove unable to point out the conflict between playing to win
    and the ideals of intercollegiate athletics to which you allude with 
    such stagy and maudlin sappiness.
    
    Where're the conflicts?  Where's the beef?
    
    Big10 Tom 
17.1761like when Mrs. Stevie_boy stepped forward...MAXWEL::CHILDSsign said, Stay Away Fool..Thu Jul 25 1991 18:178
 What happened to the big "o"?  I haven't heard Chris double speak back
 step and trip over his own keyboard this much in years. We better lighten
 up guys before we a note from his wife asking us not to pick on him so much..

 ;^)


17.1762CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchThu Jul 25 1991 18:1917
Let's face it.  

Despite all the bullshit that the NCAA puts out about collegiate athletics
building character and stuff, the bottom line is that MOST visible 
college athletics function for two reasons:  a) as a farm system for
pro sports, and b) to make money.

Inherent to both are WINNING.  

So me a bunch of people who feel "satisfied" after a_excellent loss, and
I'll show you...I'll show you... I'll show you a bunch of Baby Blue
Faithful.....


8^)

'Saw
17.1763Ack!RHETT::KNORRMarx,Lenin,Stalin,MrTThu Jul 25 1991 18:2612
    re: rugby
    
    PLEASE OH PLEASE OH PLEASE .... I BEG YOU!  I'm down on my knees,
    praying to my screen ....
    
    **** NO RUGBY NOTES IN THE ACC FILE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111 ***
    
    
    
    thanks,
    
    ACC Chris
17.1764CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchThu Jul 25 1991 18:3214
Oh, come now....

Don't the ACC schools have rugby clubs?  I'm sure they must.  In fact,
I would think that where most of them are located, they'd be in prime
climate for rugby clubs to exist.

Some of the best men's clubs are in the East (and the Southeast area)
so I'd think that the ACC colleges might have some good ruggers.


I mean, this *IS* the ACC Sports note right?


'Saw
17.1765I'll take Civil War Trivia' for $200 please, Alex.RHETT::KNORRMarx,Lenin,Stalin,MrTThu Jul 25 1991 18:4210
    > Don't the ACC schools have rugby clubs?  I'm sure they must.
    
    No, they don't.  Matter of fact I think one of the few conditions
    Lee insisted on when he surrendered to Grant was that no rugby
    be allowed below the Mason-Dixon line.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1766Saw's a Writer, I'M a READER!!!!CST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Thu Jul 25 1991 18:5918
    Wrongo ACC Chris!  They sure do and I can prove it!
    
    About 2 years ago (maybe 3) Playboy waas doing their "Girls of
    the XXX Conference" thang.  Naturally, being a person interested
    in literary excellence, I happened upon some of the [sic] filth
    whilst reading the articles.
    
    Anyway, I just happen to have archived (at home) that particular
    isssue with the ACC wimmins.  One of the pictures in this spread
    includes wimmin with rugby players.  If you really want me to,
    I cain look up the school.
    
    For a few $$$ I might be tempted to lend the mag!
    
    ;^)
    
    Kev
    
17.1767CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchThu Jul 25 1991 19:1311
Now, ACC Chris,

I was just reading a history of Mosby's Rangers, and I'll be danged if
they weren't the Granddaddy of rugby in the south.  Seems to me that
they played rugby after a hard day of beating up on the Union guerilla
style....


8^)

'Saw
17.1768Oh, by the way, Ulysees ...SHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesThu Jul 25 1991 21:0721
 Good one, Soup.  "No rugby" in the Appomattox surrender terms. 
 Rollward.

 Funny you should mention Bobby Lee, though.   Wouldn't have anything
 to do with ... ahh, never mind.

 For the record, the Virginia Rugby Club has been around for ages.  
 Blue and orange together make for a great looking rugby jersey.   One
 of my fratres played on the club when I was in school.

 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.   Mosby's Rangers were a nasty bunch.  They were a partisan band
 who were barely under anybody's authority.   They made life hell for
 the North for years.  Mostly operated in the northern Virginia area.
 
 But the absolute nastiest bunch in the South were the cavalry
 troopers of Nathan Bedford Forrest.   One of the toughest bunch of
 mean SOB hombres to ever ride the planet.   Made parts of Kentucky,
 Tennessee, Ohio, and Georgia completely impossible for the North to
 ever maintain any peace at all.
17.1769CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchFri Jul 26 1991 10:5028
> For the record, the Virginia Rugby Club has been around for ages.  
> Blue and orange together make for a great looking rugby jersey.   One
> of my fratres played on the club when I was in school.

Superb.  Probably a much better jersey than baby blue and white [many 8^)]

> P.S.   Mosby's Rangers were a nasty bunch.  They were a partisan band
> who were barely under anybody's authority.   They made life hell for
> the North for years.  Mostly operated in the northern Virginia area.

Yeah, I'm just starting the book, and it's interesting as all hell.
That's what I did on my day off this week.  I renewed my library card
and one of the books I got out was a new one on Mosby's Rangers.
 
> But the absolute nastiest bunch in the South were the cavalry
> troopers of Nathan Bedford Forrest.   One of the toughest bunch of
> mean SOB hombres to ever ride the planet.   Made parts of Kentucky,
> Tennessee, Ohio, and Georgia completely impossible for the North to
> ever maintain any peace at all.


Nathan Bedford Forrest was also one of the first Grand Wizards of the KKK,
I think.  I alway remember the line from the Charlie Daniels tune
"Lonesome Boy from Dixie":   He went down to ride with the Bedford Forrest
Cavalry...

'Saw

17.1770Battle's over baby blue faithful surrenderMAXWEL::CHILDSsign said, Stay Away Fool..Fri Jul 26 1991 11:108
 Is this willingness to fight a no-rugby battle a sign that the obvious has 
 finally sunk into the Crisper???? The 'o' quit the battle cause he saw the
 Choker for what he is....

 I think Cap deserves a Service Recognition Award myself...

 What do you say Chief, Sir Robert of Hunt....
17.1771RHETT::KNORRMarx,Lenin,Stalin,MrTFri Jul 26 1991 12:2323
    > I think Cap deserves a Service Recognition Award myself...
    
    Me too.  At least he's got a sense of objectivity, even if his
    facts were found to be inadequate in proving my "rarely" condition 
    to be false.
    
    
    re: the "R" word
    
    [picture scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail]
    
    Way:	"We are the knights who say, ... RUGBY!"
    
    ACC:	"Ack!  Don't say that word!"
    
    Way:	"RUGBY, RUGBY, RUGBY!!!"
    
    ACC:	"NO!!!11  PLEASE (!), don't say *that* WORD!"
    
    etc, etc.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1772CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchFri Jul 26 1991 12:2912
HAHAHAHAHA.  Chris, yer too funny.

You really should check out the game sometime.  The reason being that
a lot of times the Eastern Region championships are held in your
area (Hotlanta).  That's because it's one of the few warm places in 
November/December when they're held.


Now, back to hoops and Dean Bashing (but not necessarily in that order)....


'Saw
17.1773If no one else agrees, I still believe this ...CSCOA1::ROLLINS_RFri Jul 26 1991 13:1488
>  <<< Note 17.1760 by ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSY "Plato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnight" >>>
>
>    >Isn't a shame [sic] to get to these midwestern schools and come away
>    >with that kind of an attitude regarding intercollegiate athletics.
>    
>    Oh bullshit, Rolly.  Once you commit to playing, the idea is to win.
>    The students want to win.  The coaches.  The AD administrators.  The
>    alums.  The media and advertisers (who fund it all) emphasize winning.
>    
>    Much as poor ACCrock (tm) is too chicken to point out the conflict 
>    between player development/regular season success and Winning; so too
>    will you prove unable to point out the conflict between playing to win
>    and the ideals of intercollegiate athletics to which you allude with 
>    such stagy and maudlin sappiness.
>    
>    Where're the conflicts?  Where's the beef?
>    
>    Big10 Tom 


     No one ever said that there was a conflict between playing to win and
     the ideals of intercollegiate athletics.  No one intentionally plays to
     lose (unless you're a parent with very little kids), and if you did
     deliberately play to lose at this level, you'd be accomplishing nothing
     for yourself nor anything for your opponent.

     That attitude, wanting to win, is not the problem.

     The problems is the one I saw in 17.1753, namely the concept is that
     "all I care about is ... Titles.  the point, the whole point, the
     Goal, the Meaning, is the *national* Title."  To me, that attitude
     is the big problem in your notes.  I don't expect to convince you;
     the quotations herein convince me about your respect for the opposing
     view or those who hold it.  However, I think most academic institutions
     (and I admit that IU may be excepted) would think there are more
     important goals for their athletic programs than "the Goal, the Meaning"
     that you slobber over.

     To me, this is the same kind of attitude that politicians hold when
     willing to slander or destroy their opponents; remember "the Goal, the
     Meaning" is to become President of the country, the *national* champ.
     It is the same attitude that some career-climbers have when they
     knife people in the back to look good themselves and be in line for
     the next big promotion; remember "the Goal, the Meaning" is to become
     Chairman of the Board, the *corporate* champ.  Perhaps it is why big
     countries keep trying to bully little countries, either militarily, or
     economically, etc.; remeber, "the Goal, the Meaning" is to become the
     dominant nation in the world, *world* champions.

     Maybe these are extreme examples, but I think the foundation for such
     attitudes are sown earlier in life, when people adopt the attitude that
     only being the biggest and best is what counts.  Some people hold that
     any other level constitutes failure, and any other goals are fundamentally
     dishonest.  Thankfully I didn't grow up in such an environment; I didn't
     attend an instituiton so morally bankrupt to support such an idea; I didn't
     marry a woman who is only concerned about how much power and influence I
     wield.  I guess you summed up exactly what I think of the philosophy that
     you expressed earlier, as quoted from you below, with the statement:
>    Oh bullshit

     You may be right that BK is a better basketball coach than Dean.  I think
     so, too.  You are so far wrong on the other point that I can only stand
     amazed that a person could really hold that view.

     No need to respond, however.  I think 17.1760 quoted above pretty well
     demonstrates what you think of these ideas.

>    All I care about for next year is Titles.  Big10 Title would be 
>    nice, and with Bob at a high water mark talent-wise that should
>    be well within reach.
>    
>    But the point, the whole point, the Goal, the Meaning, is the
>    *national* Title.  The one that goes into that "G" ledger that
>    they'll look at 20 years from now.  Which coach pushed Wooden,
>    or even caught him?  Which school pushed UCLA or even caught 
>    them?  
>    
>    Who came out on top in post-disco era college hoops?  Who had
>    Greatness?
>    
>    (Note: These questions don't involve overall winning% or Excellent
>    Losing in the Regional Finals, they involve winning the prize that
>    the organizers turn everybody loose on at the outset.  These questions
>    involve the basic fundamental honesty to admit what the real point a
>    a season is.)
>    
>    Big10 Bigot Tom

17.17741 "Award" coming right upSHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesFri Jul 26 1991 14:2811
 Forget the wimpy "Service Recognition" thing.   Cap deserves
 something just a bit more colorful, don'tcha think ???
 
 Something like the "Cool And Deadly Award" in recognition of a most
 excellent assassination.    What say ye, Brother Henchmen ???
 
 Vito Corleone had his Luca Brasi.  Micheal Corleone had his Al Neri. 
 
 We've got our Cap.   Mess with the best; die like the rest.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1775Amen.WMOIS::REEVE_CFri Jul 26 1991 14:321
    
17.1776WMOIS::REEVE_CFri Jul 26 1991 14:351
    Amen to .1773, that is.
17.1777A farewell to arms ???SHALOT::HUNTOnce again ... Wyld Stallyns RulesFri Jul 26 1991 15:5249
 Yesterday, as we all saw, our good friend the Soupster declared that
 he wasn't going to participate in this perpetual Snuff debate for a
 long while.

 How about if we all give it a rest ???   I propose that we use this
 chance to make something positive of the entire debate.    Let's not
 light any victory cigars, no vicious taunts, no "I told you so"
 getbacks.  Let's just let it rest until the season starts back up
 again in the winter.

 There is a lot of "success" in this endless debate.   Really, think
 about it.   The entertainment has been top-notch.  I dare say that
 this is the most entertaining and perhaps the funniest note in the
 entire conference.   It certainly is among the most active notes in
 here.

 The quality of our writing has also been superb.  A lot of folks in
 here can really string the ol' words together.   Good writing is a
 lost art these days and most of us have recaptured some of it for
 ourselves through this debate.   Both sides.   Soup's org chart was
 magnificent and 'Saw's "Casey" variant was beautiful.

 Some of you might actually find this hard to believe but Chris Knorr
 and I are actually decent friends.  We've met twice in the last 6
 months or so and I enjoy his company and I think he enjoys mine.  
 He's met my wife, my kids, and my sister and we've seen a Braves
 baseball game together sitting side by side.   No, we ain't gonna be
 swapping spit in the showers any time real soon but, I assure you,
 the slings and arrows that we toss at each other in here stay in
 here.   Always have and always will.    As hard as I ride him for it,
 I do respect him for his willingness to stand by the Snuffer.    It's
 sad but it is courageous.   You gotta give him that.

 So, what do you say ???  How about if we all tally up our own
 personal (and private) score sheets on this and then put it to sleep
 for a few months ???    The baseball season is entering that really
 interesting time of year and football is just around the corner with
 the first pre-season games on tap this very weekend !!!

 So, here we go.   If you're just dying to get in a final word or two,
 then try and do so this afternoon.   We'll use this afternoon as sort
 of a "cool down" period.   You know, if you want to just get in a
 last "Snuff Chokes !!!" quickie, then go ahead and do it.

 But, how's about we start fresh on Monday morning and let the ol'
 Snuffer enjoy the rest of his summer off.   Okay ???

 Bob Hunt
 
17.1778my vote -> naahh, I liked it & want mo'CST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Fri Jul 26 1991 16:021
    
17.1779STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishFri Jul 26 1991 16:0389
    Had to enter one more note... A hired gun has his pride and this note
    should put an end to Chris's contentions that Snuff' doesn't choke
    or underachieve in the tourney.....
    
Chris likes to speak of other team's first round failures in the tourney
but forgets the history of his own favorite team...(For the record Smith has
had five 1st or 2nd round exits, compared to only four for Knight).

So the 'most dangerous' weasel must strike again, detailing 24 embarrassing
periods in the last 31 years(and this does not include Smith's embarrassing
exits from 85 - 90).

1. The most telling choke period in NC history came from 1978 - 1980.
   In that time, North Carolina:

	- Lost in the 1st round to San Francisco.  NC only had Mike O'Koren
	  Phil Ford, Dudley Bradley and Al Wood on this untalented team.

	- Lost in the 1st round as the #1 seed to the #9 seed Penn(first time 
	  in history that this had happened), in one of the biggest upsets in 
	  the history of the NCAA.  This team had the players mentioned above
	  plus a young Jimmy Black.  NC finished the season as the #3 ranked
	  team in the country.

	- Lost in the 1st round to Texas A&M in another big upset.

   There were 3 years, 3 high seedings for NC and 3 first round losses.

2. In the period of 1975 - 1976, NC also had two more patented underachieving
   tournies.  In those two years, North Carolina:

	- Lost in the 2nd round to Syracuse.  NC had Phil Ford, Mitch Kupchak
	  Tommy Lagarde and Walter Davis on that team.  Syracuse started
	  Hackett, Sease, Seibert, Lee and Williams.  Anyone remember those
	  players.

	- Lost in the first round to Alabama.  This team had Walter Davis,
	  Lagarde, Ford, Kupchak and Dudley Bradley on it.  Alabama had
	  a bunch of no-names.

3. In 1983-84 more surprising losses and underachievements occured.

	- In 1983, they lost to big underdog Georgia.  This is with
	  a team consisting of Daugherty, Doherty, Perkins and Jordan.

	- In 1984, they lost to unranked Indiana when they were the #1 ranked 
	  team in the country.  Here are the line-ups for that game:

		North Carolina		Indiana

		Sam Perkins		Mike Giomi
		Matt Doherty		Marty Simmons
		Brad Daugherty		Uwe Blab
		Michael Jordan		Dan Dakich
		Kenny Smith		Steve Alford
		Dave Popson		Stew Robinson
		Joe Wolf		Steve Eyel
		
4. In their 7 final four or finals losses they have been heavily favored in 3 
   games and favored in another 3 games.

	- In 1967 they were heavily favored as the #1 seed to beat unranked
	  Dayton(the lowest seeded team in the tourney) but lost in the final
	  four.

	- In 1968 they were slight favorites over Purdue but lost by 27 points
	  in the final four and than lost the 3rd place game by 20 points to
	  DRAKE!

	- In 1972 they were HEAVILY favored to defeat #5 seed Florida State
	  but lost in the final four.

	- In 1977 they were favored to beat Marquette but lost in the finals,
	  despite having four players that had played on the previous year's
	  Gold medal team.  Dean was terribly outcoached in this game and
	  he played 14 players in this game substituting frantically(sound
	  familiar?????) :-)

	- In 1981 they were favored to defeat Indiana, but Knight triumphed
	  over Smith again.

	- In 1991 they lost to a less talented Kansas team as Dean left the
	  game in an ebarrassing display of poor sportsmanship(getting tossed).

5. We could also talk about the 7 year period at the start of his career where
   he failed to make the tourney or the 5 year period in the 70's where he
   made the tourney only once.

    
17.1780I second the motionCAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchFri Jul 26 1991 16:0323
Well, I kind of agree with Bob on this one.  

I mean, personally, I'm not gonna be able to keep making up new material
at this hectic pace we've been having.  I've got to recharge the batteries.

And I agree with Bob on ACC Chris too.  I met him at a Mike Childs gettogether,
and he's a much, much better basketball player than I'll ever be.

He's a personable guy, and he's got a good sense o' humor.  (And he's got
the patience of Job to put up with our slings and arrows).


I think of Chris the way the old WWI flying aces thought of each other...As
respected opponents.  When one's gun would jam, the other would just salute
and fly off....


So, I second Bob's motion.  I'll recommend to the rest of the Org Chart
denizens that you NOT waste this lull.  Enjoy sports, peruse the
dastisticks(tm), and be ready come hoop season.....


'Saw
17.1781Dean Rap....;-)RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOThe Sox Fall AgainFri Jul 26 1991 16:2591
To the tune (roughly) "Caint Touch This" or if you will "Super Freak"

Many apologies to M.C. Hammer and Rick James


Title:  Caint Win This (or Dean's Pre-NCAA-Tourney Rap)

By:  Rapmaster Dean

(Intro Music - dum dum dum de dum, dum dum dum...)

Caint Win This

(repeat intro music)

Caint Win This

(repeat intro music)

I've been to many Tour-neys
Always with the Horseys
They turn into horredous Jour-Neys
ANd lost of excellent Losseys

(repeat music)
Caint Win This
(repeat music)
Caint win this

Bob in 81 or Ray in 91
This thang just aint no mo fun
I sub like a re-volv-ing dooor
But a win I still caint score

(repeat Music)
Caint WIn This
(repeat music)
Caint win this

I had me one shining glory
The ending was almost quite gory
I was ready to run outta time
Then the gift from Freddie Brown

(repeat music)
Caint WIn This

repeat music)

CAIINT WIN THIS!

I gets to the final final four
Always knocking on yer door
But they gotta pull me off the floor
I choked just like be-four!

CAINT WIN THIS

Caint win this

Sam and James and Brad and Mike
Phil and Kenny and the like
I wind em up and they do play
But in strategy - I'm quite Fay

Caint Win this

Caint win this

(Music keeps playing, Dean does some dancing with baggy pants)

I always starts out fine
But never know the real time
I go home and take a real soak
Cuz I know I just pulled a choke

Caint Win This

Caint WIn This

Next years another year
IN the tourney I'll be dear
But a choke is what I fear
And Chris will shed another tear

Caint Win This

Caint win THIS


17.1782CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchFri Jul 26 1991 16:4210
PROPER, JD, PROPER!


Everyone have a bodacious weekend.  I am about to get a head start on
some amber nectar for the weekend.  Seems that we successfully got
BASEstar V3.1 into FT and it's time for a wee celebration....


later,
'Saw
17.1783One last dig, then its swap-spit time.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Jul 26 1991 17:5057
    re: Cap
    
    Your statistics sound devastating on the surface, yet if you were to
    examine *any* of the top-notch programs in the USA, with the exception
    of UCLA in the 60's, you could come up with similar details.  The fact 
    is, only ONE outa close to 300 teams in America can win a Title in any 
    given year and, despite your subjective "evidence" of Carolina 
    talent-supremacy you MUST recognize that, in the college game of the 
    last 20 years or more, general parity has taken hold.  Hence, the 
    "no-name" teams like Alabama and Syracuse were actually *loaded* with 
    HS All-Americans who were more than capable of pulling the upset.
    
    I suppose the ultimate difference between "you" (weasels) and me is
    that I simply don't equate losing in the NCAA Tournament (which we've
    done 31 of the last 32 years) with a disappointing season, with the
    possible exception of 1984.  Am I bitterly disapointed when our season
    ends without a Title?  Sure.  Am I bitterly disappointed every time 
    Carolina loses *any* game?  Absolutely.  Heck, I'm bitterly
    disappointed when JR Reid gets involved in a bar incident, or King
    Rice chokes his girlfriend.
    
    The bottom line is that I absolutely *bleed* Carolina Blue.  Always
    have, always will.  I also have an undying passion for the ACC and
    college basketball in general.  Ultimately I suppose I can be expected
    be wholly objective on the latter two.  On the former, well, ...  all
    bets are off.
    
    
    re: truce
    
    I dunno, I have mixed feelings about this.  It certainly would be
    unprecedented, although I suppose most summers are quieter than this
    one has been.  I suspect you'll have lots of difficulty convincing
    MrT to quiet down.  Lately it's been sounding like he's starting to
    warm up again.
    
    Nevertheless I shall do the mainly thing and lay down my LK201 for
    the remainder of the summer, assuming all weasels do likewise.
    
    One final note.  Remember, NOTES is just NOTES.  It ain't real life.
    I've met just about everybody in this whole dang conference and
    have liked every one of 'em.  So, no matter how blistering the attacks
    may be, no matter how heavy the sarcasm is dished out, ...  don't take
    it personally.  NOTES <> "me" (or you).  Also, try not to forget
    the even_more_important equation:
    
    
    
    Dean > Bob.  
    
    (HTH!)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
    
17.1784ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Jul 26 1991 18:1742
    Deeg, JD, DEEE-E-EEG. Rat on, brud.
    
    re: Rolly's ridiculously contrived, unfair, & irrelevant .1773
    
    Your examples are not only extreme, they're just plain wrong.  I 
    stand by my statement that what I want is a Title.You connect
    Bo and Poor MrT, to costs of type that're never incurred by
    the IU program.  Here's something to think about: Name on Bob
    recruit who was Prop 48.  Or this: The embarrassing lineup of talent
    that beat The Best am Ever (Sports Illustrated's words not 
    mine) in '84 had Mike Giomi, who looked to be there best player
    the following few years.  But Mike rused to  to class and was
    racking up a C average.  Bob tried to straighten out this entirely
    eligible playerhis best, Mike wanted to party (which is cool) ),
    so they decided that it would be better if maybeike played 
    elsewhere.  He transferred to the ACC.
    
    The reason I cain say "all I care about is a Title" is cuz is that
    there are no embarrassing trade-fs involved, as you falsely
    imply.  Same for Michigan alums about theiSmif'-like football
    program.  They pick up rankings and recruits and Big10 Titles in
    a_annual cake walk.  The boys I kw who schooled in A Arbor
    want one thing: a Title.  I think with Moeller they're gonna get
    it... finally.  And their program is squeaky clean.  I hope the
    do get their Titl(with their only loss being to Indiana's 
    suddenly respectable Hoosier gridders).
    
    re: Cap
    
    Beautiful, Cap.  Too cool.  Nothing like a little historical FACK
    to straighten things up a bit, eh?  My kia note.  Most excellent.
    
    And Frank, Crock (tm) ain't like a WWI pilot.Much as a main who'o
    has owned a dog for years begins to take on its characteristics,
    Crock (tm) iunconsciously acting out Snuffy's geeky, shameful,
    and wretched exit from the Kansas game.
    
    35 seconds left, the game almost decided.  Things getting a little
    rocky.  A crisis a confidence, a fear a success, he begins shaking
    hands and walking on his troops.  Quitting.
    
    Big10 UltraBigot Tom
17.1785ptooeyyy!!!! ;^)CST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Fri Jul 26 1991 18:171
    
17.1786MrT's bad investment ...RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Jul 26 1991 18:369
    re: .1784 (MrT)
    
    That dumb HayesSmartModem of yours simply has_to go.  Reading your
    notes is gettin' to be downright *painful*!
    
    Haw!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1787MCIS1::DHAMELBadda-bing, badda-boomFri Jul 26 1991 18:4110
    
    HI.  I'M NEW TO THE SPORTS NOTES FILE AND THIS IS THE FIRST NOTE THAT
    CAME UP ON THE SCREEN.  I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHO THIS COLLEGE DEAN
    NAMED SMITH IS.  IS HE A COACH TOO?  IF SO, IS HE A GOOD COACH OR A BAD
    COACH?  HOW ABOUT SOME OPINIONS?  IS HE A AS GOOD AS THE GUY NAMED BOB
    FROM INDIANA WHO TEACHES NIGHT SCHOOL AND COACHES TOO?  LOOKING FORWARD
    TO YOUR REPLIES AND INPUT.
    
    -THE INSTIGATOR
    
17.1788All these notes will make 'War and Peace' seem like a short storyRHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Jul 26 1991 18:4910
    re: .1787
    
    Good question!  Before answering though, I'd suggest you read notes
    17.1 thru 17.1786, then call Jeff Riggen on OURGNG and request a
    backup copy of the archived OURGNG::SPORTS file.  Check out note 25.*.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1789I hate baseball so I'll miss this... MAXWEL::CHILDSsign said, Stay Away Fool..Fri Jul 26 1991 18:5911
 All I have to say is that his shaking of the Kansas players' hands with
 35 seconds left was one of the most classless and qutless exhibitions I
 have ever witnessed in my life...

 I will hand it to Chris for trying to shoot holes in Cap's last brillant
 essay...

 the thing was bullet proof but he tried.....

 mike
17.1790MAXWEL::CHILDSsign said, Stay Away Fool..Fri Jul 26 1991 19:085
 thanks DickStah on that note I retire rolllowARDKDFASDGKA;LRTHK
 FOR THE WEEKEND

 HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!
17.1792Yowsa!HPSRAD::RIEUI want my CIPBM!Fri Jul 26 1991 19:3511
>          <<< Note 17.1745 by RHETT::KNORR "Marx,Lenin,Stalin,MrT" >>>
    
>    I rest my case, and this is my last note on the subject for a very long
>    time.
>    
>    
>    - ACC Chris
    
    
       Almost 2 whole daze. I guess that's a 'very long time' in ACC land.
                                        Denny
17.1793ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewFri Jul 26 1991 20:2531
    Dear Crock-o-Holic,
    
    Forget this olive twig thing from Boss Hunt.  Word has it ol'
    Boss got stoned and went to the movies and saw Boyz N The Hood.
    Apparently he came away all soft and mushy and went maudlin on
    us having decided to quit his role as gang leader.  Boss has
    embarrassed himself and hurt his fellow gangsters with a slap
    in the face.
    
    But, guess what?  I'm steal rat here on the street corner and
    I have no plans to go anywhere.  If Boss wants to "crack" up
    and go straight that's his own problem.  I read his note as a
    letter a resignation.  Yuck.
    
    Now, back to brass ticks and your sleazy "am I terribly 
    disappointed of course I aim!" jive-bull.  You dip your hands
    into the lowest form a scum when you deflect the whole argument
    by saying that it's all about equating success with Titles.  Oh
    no you don't: We're notalking about gratification or bitter
    disappointment.  If I want gratification all I need is a Brawny
    Boy jumbo paper towel, a soft place to lay down on my right side,
    and 3 minutes.
    
    To remind you, the argument is about Greatness.  
    
    One last thing: Your rebuttal to (the wonderful and positively
    awe inspiring) Cap's bulletproof expose was limp.  May I recommend
    a prosthesis implant?  Main, have YOU ever gone limp!
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom
    
17.1794"HASTAS LAVISTA BABY"I'LL BE BACK...RAVEN1::OGLESBYSat Jul 27 1991 18:4715
          Hey guys!
    Now that we are taking a break from Dean-bashing, I want you to
    remember one thing.  When the season starts, you will notice one thing
    about the baby blue faithful.
    
                             
    
                                        We don't DIE! 
                                        We just MULTIPLY!!!!!
     
    
    
    
    
         BIG "O"
17.1795like roachesANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewSat Jul 27 1991 22:121
    
17.1796Sueb.Anthony 2X Snuffy..MAXWEL::CHILDSHe even danced with Maryln-NO WAY!Mon Jul 29 1991 10:355

but atleast roaches know enough to walk away when the smell's too bad...
    

17.1797MrT's note deserves censorship. (yuk)RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Jul 29 1991 11:5712
    > Cap's bulletproof reply
    
    Cap's reply was not bulletproof, as I clearly demonstrated.  There's
    only been *ONE* note I've read in close to four (4) years of noting
    that I'd classify as bulletproof.
    
    I ain't sayin' whose it was (although he knows who he is) but I will
    say it left me wholly devastated and at a_utter loss for words.  (I
    ducked *that* sucker BIGTIME!)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1798MAXWEL::CHILDSHe even danced with Maryln-NO WAY!Mon Jul 29 1991 12:5117
    
>    Cap's reply was not bulletproof, as I clearly demonstrated.  There's
>    only been *ONE* note I've read in close to four (4) years of noting
>    that I'd classify as bulletproof.
    
 >   I ain't sayin' whose it was (although he knows who he is) but I will
 >   say it left me wholly devastated and at a_utter loss for words.  (I
 >   ducked *that* sucker BIGTIME!)
    
  

   You've already been declared legally insane by a jury of your peers so
 demonstration is much like Pee Wee's fascination with himself. NBFD!!!

 5 bucks for a reprint of the note that obliterated the Crocker...

 ;^) 
17.1799Nothin' left on the targetSHALOT::HUNTSay it ain't so, Pee WeeMon Jul 29 1991 14:0117
 Resign ???   Moi ???   Are you outta your mind, T ???
 
 No way, baby.   Just that we've shot so many holes in the Soupster's
 carcass that we couldn't find no more meat.   No sense wastin' ammo,
 right ???
 
 But if you cain find a few more choice morsels just a_beggin' to be
 shot off, then go for it.  I'm more than ready for a little
 amusement.
 
 Funny how the Big Zero resurfaces after the dust settles down.  
 Classic Deansketeer move.   Yo, Raving Blue, whatever scant trace of
 credibility you *might* have had, you just tossed out the window with
 your "run-n-hide" strategy.   Come on back in here when you can
 handle things full time (like Soup) against the Henchmen.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1800CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchMon Jul 29 1991 14:1312
As I said on Friday, that's one of the things I respect about ACC Chris.

He stands in their wif ya, toe-to-toe and takes it like a man.  That's
a rare quality these days, in this, give-it-a-try, can-it afterwards 
day and age.

Raving Blue did a classic Dr Midnight....  Not cool....


Me, I'm still rechargine mah creative batteries....

'Saw
17.1801BobHunt wastes no time violating cease fire agreement :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jul 29 1991 14:2228
17.1802Soup hungry for more pain ???SHALOT::HUNTElectric Chairy for Pee Wee ???Mon Jul 29 1991 15:0613
 Oh, come on, Soup, gimme a break.   There is not one reference to
 Snuff in that entire note.   Nada.   I haven't fired a single shot at
 you or the Snuffer since before Friday.   I did fire a shot at the
 Big Zero but he deserved it for his chicken-sheet "finesse" game.
 
 If I had put the first half of that note into a mail message and sent
 it offline to T, it would have had the same effect.   Most likely, no
 effect at all ... knowing T.
 
 You're just stirrin' the pot lookin' for some more pain.  You sure
 you wanna do that ???   You miss the action that much ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1803while my vomit gently seeps...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewMon Jul 29 1991 15:1333
    Ceasefires and recharged batteries notwithstanding, we have some 
    serious outstanding problems in here:
    
    * ACCrock (tm) hypocrisy.  He spends 3 years quacking about Bob's
      early round exits, gets documentation showing that the Snuffer
      is worse in that department than Bob, and simply ignores the 
      Truth a the matter.
    
    * ACCrock (tm) blind spot: He loves to talk (and talk and talk and
      talk) about winning percentages piled up against regular season
      cupcackes, but ignores the fack that men who've rightfully donned
      the "G" string are on par with him during the time when it counts
      the most, postseason, when the chips are down.
    
    * ACCrock (tm) eel-like slipperiness: He's droned on ad pukeum about
      this alleged conflict, yet has resisted hundreds a calls for him to
      document anywhere it might exist to poor Snuffer's pacific disadvantage.
    
    There'll be a cease fire only when some Intellectual Honesty is actually 
    exhibited by the unscrupulous and factually unreliable Crock (tm).  He
    has done a poor job defending poor Snuffy.  If Smif', or a real live 
    Chapel Hell alum, ftm, could see him acting on their behalf unsolicited
    I'm sure they'd send in a hit main with a silencer to spare themselves
    the discomfiting shame of it all.     
    
    In Chapel Hell land there are some things better left unaddressed, like
    NCAA tournaments, squandered talent, and pretensions to the "G" string.
    
    ACCrock (tm) has turned in a low quality job, a_evasive job, in this
    debate.  Perhaps he's strapped by the fack that he has no relationship
    with UNC-CH in any way shape or form and is only a bandwagon jumper.
    
    Big10 UltraBigot Tom - IU '75
17.1805CAM::WAYHigh Toned Son of a BitchMon Jul 29 1991 15:2910
I'm gonna start callin' MrT the Veg-O-Matic.

Why?

Cause he just sliced and diced ACC Chris 17 ways to Sunday....


MrT, available from RonCo  8^)

'Saw
17.1806Silence Ain't Always ConsentSHALOT::HUNTElectric Chairy for Pee Wee ???Mon Jul 29 1991 18:1216
17.1807ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYACCrock: the Pee Wee of SPORTSMon Jul 29 1991 18:3727
    And ANOTHER thing, another unanswered question:
    
    We ALSO have heard ad pukeum about poor Snuffer's vaunted player
    development.  Wail, last time I looked at the book it seemed to 
    say something about how better developed players win the tough
    games.  So then, we're left with a_easily solved quandary, IMNSHO:
    
    1) The good Reverend develops players into NBA All-Stars, but makes
       necessary sacrifices in such a way that they win big-time in the
       regular season but always choke when the clutch is down.  They're
       developed by Smif', and are not raw talent that woulda gone to the
       NBA had they ended up playing for a hack like "coach" Bill Fritter.
    
    or...
    
    2) The good Reverend's recruits eye-popping talent that's gonna go to
       the NBA whomever the coach, they're molded into Snuffy's outmoded
       system, roll up big-time success in the regular season based on 
       the talent, but swallow the Big Fishbone in the tourney when they
       encounter similar talent and, more importantly, a coach who knows
       more than UnderAchievementFace about flexibility, motivation, and
       game coaching.
    
    It must be one a these two scenarios.  Now, I axe you, which seems the
    more plausible?
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom 
17.1808OZARDZ::WASKOMMon Jul 29 1991 20:189
    How in the world did the Hatfields and McCoys finally cease their
    feudin' and fightin'?
    
    Strikes me that it's gonna take one a' the MicroHunts takin' up with one
    o' Crisp's Critters for this whole thing to finally get resolved. 
    Here's hopin' it winds up in a weddin' and not in a mutual suicide pact
    a la the Capulets and Montagues.
    
    A&W
17.1809Took every ounce of restraint to hold back but it wasn't enough ...SHALOT::HUNTElectric Chairy for Pee Wee ???Mon Jul 29 1991 21:0237
17.1810HAHAHAHAHARIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOPee Wee's wee-wee adventureTue Jul 30 1991 03:5210
    Bob Hunt -
    
    Outstanding.  You could expand on the who "South Side Story" thang -
    could be bigger than the trial.  I'm rollward.  Especially the last
    one.   I keep picturing J>R> Reid in a Rita Moreno get up singing that
    while tring to execute a pick 'n roll...
    
    jd
    
    
17.1812Confession is Truly good for the Soul...CAM::WAYDoin' the Pee Wee Thang!Tue Jul 30 1991 12:5231
Oh, this is tough.  This is DAMN tough.

Here I am, sitting here, trying to abide by the restrictions I've placed
on myself, recharging my creative batteries, waiting patiently for the
basketball sesaon to start....


And you guys are trangressing.  I mean, I know it's hard.  Kind of like
going into the confessional, and you'd tell the priest you were having
impure thoughts about the girl who sits next to you in class ( and you always
wanted to say "But Father, she looks so great in that sweater of hers, and
she's um, you know, *there*, uh, um Father, she's um, well, really well
developed Father, and you know Father, those wondrous creations of the
Lord are driving my young adolescent hormones insane Father, not that
you'd know anything about that Father, you celibate old man you, but
I'm telling you all I do all day is think about them Father and I just
want to......")

Well, anyway, you get my point.  There you are with a tremendous woodie
in the confessional of all places, thinking about Margaret O'Malley's
bodacious ta-tas and the priest tells you to try a little harder next time.

Well guys, try a little harder, because the temptation here is GREAT.
I'm tempted, you're tempted, we're all tempted.


But, just think how great it's gonna be when the flood tide breaks come
hoops season!


'Saw
17.1813ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYACCrock: the Pee Wee of SPORTSTue Jul 30 1991 14:0423
    ACCrock (tm) has, at long long last, finally agreed to substantively
    address the Big Four outstanding questions forthrightly and factually
    and without deflection, diversion, or obfuscation.  This is his Final
    Four, so to speak.  The rules a engagement must be fleshed out a little
    bit, and Crockmeister has requested a panel a experts to rule on who
    is right, i.e., who wins.
    
    Hope he does better in *his* Final Four than his False Idol.  Look for
    a choke job garnished with egregious excuses and implausible
    interpretations.
    
    I'm skeptical, but having put 3 years into this I cain nly hope that
    this bandwagon jumper, this hanger on,  will actually muster the requisi
    the courage to honor the Intellectual Honesty and Objectivity that has 
    been the hallmark a us Antis.
    
    Otherwise, we cain only conclude that he wasn't serious in s claims and
    sought only to see poor Snuffer's questionable nambask in the glow a 
    a comparison with the Great Ones, such as Bob, Rupp, and Wooden.
    
    We'll see.
    
    Big10 UltraUnbelievablyBigotedButFactuallyObjectivist Tom
17.1814CAM::WAYPee Wee = Manson minus swastikaTue Jul 30 1991 14:0811
Ooh, kind of like a_Southern_Inquisition...

I like that.

Who might be on the panel?  

Well, my loins are just tingling, my thighs are just shuddering in 
anticipation of this little spectacle.  Why, I cain even feel the
creative juices flowing...

'Saw
17.1815BTW, I need a pointer to 'The Big Four'. (can't find 'em)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jul 30 1991 14:1825
    > Who might be on the panel?
    
    Good question, 1Way (tm).  I'd suggest a group of five (5), and here's
    my list for submission:
    
    o John Hendry 	- A "weasel" with a big-time UNC grudge, but
    			  I'm willing to let him here the case.
    
    o Dan Schneider	- Wholly objective and analytical, he may be
    			  pro-UNC but he should offset the biased
    			  Hendry nicely.
    
    o TTom		- Another weasel, and this one went to a school
    			  that used to be Carolina's biggest rival.
    
    o The Big "O"	- Obviously TTom must be offset, and "O" seems
    			  like the perfect candidate.
    
    o A&W		- If all plays to form the vote will be split
    			  2-2.  Cain she be counted on to be fair and
    			  objective?  Who knows, but she strikes me as
    			  being fair-minded and neutral.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1816Ninja and A&W for sure. The rest, I dunno ...SHALOT::HUNTElectric Chairy for Pee Wee ???Tue Jul 30 1991 15:5359
17.1817Booted out?RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWatkins Who?Tue Jul 30 1991 18:369
17.1818ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYACCrock: the Pee Wee of SPORTSTue Jul 30 1991 19:3618
    Don't worry, B.A.  Besides your confusion on Dale you're fully
    accredited as a_Anti.   You know too much about hoops not to git
    that acrid vomit smell in your nostrils whenever you see Dean's
    bulbous nose.
    
    re: proposed blue ribbon panel
    
    No way, Crock (tm).  Dan SnideAir as a_objective analyst is like
    Dahmer as a child care worker.  And Big Zero would be his aide.
    Throw out TTom, keep A&W and my former running mate, then deal
    in, say, Riggens and maybe Jesse the Bod and I think we have the
    makings a a Final Solution.  
    
    Three a the 4 are in my 4th last note, the 4ths in my 3rd last note.
    
    Good luck, buddy.  You're gonna need it.
    
    Big10 Objectivist Tom
17.1819Hendry/Dan/Riggen/A&W/MikeHeiserRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jul 30 1991 19:495
    I'll throw out Big Zero, but if Hendry stays Dan stays.  After
    all, "O" Hendry is a self-stated anti-Carolina main!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1820OZARDZ::WASKOMTue Jul 30 1991 21:1411
    I think I'm flattered.  
    
    On the positive side, I believe that the two "heads of family" in this
    on-going feud have found something they can agree on.  Continuing
    negotiations on the make-up of this blue-ribbon panel are encouraged,
    as a way of practicing non-feuding behavior :-).
    
    Maybe this won't end in gang warfare and a mutual suicide pact after
    all.....
    
    A&W
17.1821Joe might be a sympathizer though with all those BAywhine chokesMAXWEL::CHILDSHe even danced with Maryln-NO WAY!Wed Jul 31 1991 00:559
 Dan's out he's one of these defender of the little people and anti-the 
 masses anything. Seeing how the anti are the mass in here we know Dan will
 go the opposite out of spite....

 I recommend Jim McFall or Joe Gambino...after all Joe had even taken to
 slandering his own conference...

 mike 
17.1822MCIS1::DHAMELDude without a 'tudeWed Jul 31 1991 11:536
    
    IMHO, I think we'll see the Arab-Israeli world settled long before this
    issue.
    
    Dickstah
    
17.1823CAM::WAYHigh-Tone Son of a BitchWed Jul 31 1991 12:0121
>>>          <<< Note 17.1822 by MCIS1::DHAMEL "Dude without a 'tude" >>>
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Does this mean that you're now marchin' in step wif da company line?
Balance the books on the backs of the worker bees?

We needs explanations here Dickstah!
    

>    IMHO, I think we'll see the Arab-Israeli world settled long before this
>    issue.
    
This I agree with.  I think that the Hare Smithnas are far more set in 
their ways that the most conservative Muslims or Jews.  I think that
we will see lions laying down with lambs, swords beaten into plowshare,
and cats and dogs living together before we ever see the Baby Blue Faithful
admit what the rest of the free world knows....


'Saw    

17.1824RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jul 31 1991 12:5615
    All right, I'll go along with Judge McFalse as a blue-ribbon panel
    member.  (This despite the fact that whole danged world knows he was
    in bed with that sleazy wheel-chair weilding, whiskey-drinking,
    District Attorney.
    
    So here they are:
    
    1. John Hendry
    2. A&W
    3. Judge McFail
    4. Dan Schneider
    5. TTom
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1825FDCV07::KINGIf the shoe fits... BUY IT!!!!!!!!!!!!Wed Jul 31 1991 12:573
    Hey, what about me?!?!? I don't like either the ACC or the Big 10!!
    
    REK
17.1826MCIS1::DHAMELDude without a 'tudeWed Jul 31 1991 13:0010
    
>  we will see lions laying down with lambs
>  and cats and dogs living together 
    
    Now *these* are what I would call "Dudes without 'tudes."  Sounds like
    a great name for a band, eh?  Like "Tears for Fears" or "Men without
    Hats."
    
    Dickstah
    
17.1827CAM::WAYHigh-Toned Son of a BitchWed Jul 31 1991 13:0219
>    Hey, what about me?!?!? I don't like either the ACC or the Big 10!!
>    
>    REK


But you don't like Dogs either, and that's un_American!  In fact, it's
a good thing ol' Senator McCarthy ain't around any more   [many 8^)]


Seriously, that panel looks okay, to me.

Few people realize it, but Jim McFall is a veritable John Hendry when
it comes to the New York Giants.  This man is a dastistickal repository
of great reknown among Giant faithful.  Therefore I heartily endorse
his addition to the panel, for his facktual(tm) reasoning ability....



'Saw
17.1828another nomination to the panelCST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Wed Jul 31 1991 13:039
    
    
    HOW ABOWT RCASO??!??? EVREBODI NOWS THAT WONSE HE DESYDZ HOW
    
    HE FEEELS ABOWT SUMTHYNG; HEYL VYOLENTLI DEFEND HIZ POZISHUN
    
    AND WONT B TO BLAM!!!!!!
    
    SUMBODE KARE 2 FYND HIM??
17.1829Dickstah, I think you meant "Men Without Talent"SHALOT::MEDVIDboys have wants, girls have needsWed Jul 31 1991 13:051
    
17.1830CARROL::LEFEBVREBarbarism begins at homeWed Jul 31 1991 14:584
    Dan'l, people who admit they like The Pet Shop Boys shouldn't throw
    stones....
    
    Mark.
17.1832VAXWRK::SCHNEIDERSome folks trust in reasonWed Jul 31 1991 18:129
    >Now *these* are what I would call "Dudes without 'tudes."  Sounds like
    >a great name for a band, eh?  Like "Tears for Fears" or "Men without
    >Hats."
    
    I just heard of a new band, with a name along the same lines...
    
    Men Without IQs.
    
    Dan
17.1833RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jul 31 1991 18:1810
    > I just heard of a new band [Men Without IQs]
    
    Now now Dan, I realize BobHuntandtheWeasels *are* a sad lot, but I
    prefer the charitable adjective of "ignorance" as opposed to
    stupidity.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1834the verdict's a foregone conclusion already just anoher case of insanityCHIEFF::CHILDSHe even danced with Maryln-NO WAY!Wed Jul 31 1991 23:4910
 ooouuuu Markie nice shot.  ;^)

 but I do agree with ya Dan-l...

 Nope no how no way can Schneider be in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 If he's in than I'm in for balance...

mike
17.1835I thought Men Withoug IQ's was a North Carolina booster club?AXIS::ROBICHAUDTheFew,TheProud,TheBonehaidsFri Aug 02 1991 10:141
    
17.1836Thanks Slasher...MAXWEL::CHILDSFrankie &amp; Dinz-Love Story 2 1/2Fri Aug 02 1991 10:554

hahahahahahahaaaaaa    

17.1837CAM::WAYHigh-Toned Son of a BitchFri Aug 02 1991 11:0423
Men Without IQs started out as a garage band called Men With Low Sperm Counts.

After a while they lost their bass player, so they picked up a new one
from the leftovers bin at UNC.  Seems he'd been a basketball player who
was extremely talented in High School, but he just could't abide by the
System.  So, he took up the bass.

At that point, the band changed their name to Men With Itchy Testicles.
Guess the new bass player has a case of jock itch or something.

Then, their drummer had a drug induced heart problem, and for a while
he was on medication for acute angina.  The band changed their name
yet again, this time to Men With Too Much Estrogen.


Once the drummer got better, they were playing out in a bar frequented
by blacks, who were really diggin' their awesome tuneage, and they
kept yelling "Stupid, stupid".  It was at that point that the band 
changed their name to "Men Without IQs"


Hope this schleps,
'Saw
17.1838now wait just a minute...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYACCrock: the Pee Wee of SPORTSFri Aug 02 1991 13:2330
    No way on Hendry.  I sat down and thought about it more careful like
    and recalled into my brain that John Hendry and ACCrock (tm) worked
    side-by-side (wail, John worked and Crock did whatever it is he does)
    and became friends.
    
    Now, I ain't impugning my former running mate's integrity, but I think
    what Crockmeister is aiming for is another one a them "let's split it
    down the middle" toothless mealy-mouthed middle a the road accords that
    has nothing at all to do with the Objective Troof.
    
    Hendry is too close to Crock to assure us a_incisive cold objective
    "emotions be damned" surgical procedure on the heart a the argument. 
    
    Also, I demand a_investigation on whether A&W is also somehow connected
    to ACCrisp.  Sure is funny how he threw her name out there so sudden
    like.
    
    ACCrook is trying to rig these proceedings.  Remember, this is the guy
    who used set host on a computer in Air's office to sit as judge in his
    own felony trial!  He's trying to load the panel with his cronies and
    guarantee a 3-2 positive vote.
    
    We have plenty a people outside the Grate Debate who cain be entirely
    objective and clinical.  Why put in anybody who's participated.
    
    It ain't right.  Also, don't start the proceedings teal week after next
    cuz I'm gong to Paris right now and won't be back teal a week from
    Monday.
    
    MrT
17.1839CAM::WAYCall her up on the spank lineFri Aug 02 1991 13:3017
MrT --

Tell Paris I said hello.  There are a couple of things I miss from my
stint there, namely the Eiffel Tower, and all that wonderful traffic
around the Arc de Triomphe.

My biggest regret was that since I'd been a leetle tyke, I'd wanted to
see Napolean's Tomb.  The day I got there they was doing construction
and the red marble sarcophagus was all covered up by scaffolding and the
like.

btw, if any of you ever get to Paris, check out the area around the bottom
of the tomb.  It's like somethin' outta the Raiders of the Lost Ark.

And the Catacombs are bitchin' cool too!

'Saw
17.1840ACC News, direct from The Poop SheetRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Aug 05 1991 12:5218
    In ACC news:
    
    o Looks like the rumors of Kenny Harris NOT transferring were exactly
      that - rumors.  Seems he's been seen on campus frequently and has
      been consulting with The Man (Dean) often, but it was just cause 
      Deano was helping him get his academics in order to facilitate his
      transfer to VCU.  In related news, Derrick Phelps reports his knee
      is "95%", which is another way of saying it ain't better yet.  I'm
      worried.
    
    o Horrible news for Wake Forest, as outstanding rising sophomore
      Randolph Childress tore up his knee and had to have major surgery.
      (tore his anterior something_or_other)  They're optimistically hoping
      he can return by January.  The doctors say he'll definitely recover,
      but the timing is difficult to hard code.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1841FYIEARRTH::BROOKSSay it ain't so Pee Wee !Mon Aug 05 1991 13:238
    re . Nathan B. Forrest
    
    That S.O.B. once massacred 300 (mostly black) soliders at Fort Pillow, 
    including the wounded.
    
    I hope he's taking a special spot in the Devil's Microwave ....
    
    Doc
17.1842I acceptHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowMon Aug 05 1991 14:2014
Back from an extended vacation...

Sure, I'd be proud to serve on the panel. Is this still in the works?

And as regard my dislike of No Carolina: it has little basis in how the
relative hoops programs go at State versus Chapel Hill. I've disklike Tar
Heels for years because they're fascist power mongers. If anyone spends
any time in the NC, you'll be confronted almost continuously by the
control that the Tar Heels exert on the daily life of this state's
citizenry.

Dean? He's gravy.

TTom
17.1843UNC comments from HS-phenom Randy LivingstonRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Aug 05 1991 14:4928
    Okay weasels, better NEXT/UNSEEN before going any further, cause here
    comes another non-biased Dean Observation that just might pay off *in
    spades* for UNC.  
    
    Just as Eric Montross admitted in a press conference that he chose UNC
    because of Dean's unparalleled record of teaching fundamentals and
    placing talent into the pros, so Randy Livingston recently made almost
    the identical remarks.
    
    Now, for those of you who might not know who Randy Livingston is, maybe
    we should have Nazz come in for a quick refresher, cause he termed this
    rising HS JUNIOR (!) "unbelievable", while witnessing his MVP
    award-winning performance in this years Boston Shootout.  He's a 6-3 
    guard from New Orleans and is probably already the best HS player in the 
    USA, despite his youthful age.  The Poop Sheet (my non-biased source
    for Randy's comments which will follow) says the only valid comparison
    in the kids abilities is with (gulp!) Michael Jordan.  His spin moves
    are already NBA-quality.
    
    Randy has, of course, put UNC on his short list.  The reason?  He sez
    that if he goes to Carolina he'll be guaranteed to learn the
    fundamentals of the game, and went on to discuss Dean's phenomenal
    record of turning talented prospects into bread-winning professionals.
    
    Does anyone really think this 'Panel' is still necessary?  [I don't.]
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1844Two minutes in the penalty box for the SoupsterSHALOT::HUNTPee Wee's Bogus Adventure ???Mon Aug 05 1991 15:1841
17.1845for the meanwhileHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowMon Aug 05 1991 15:339
I guess as a_almost chartered MP (Member o' the Panel) I should swear off
criticism of Dean and the Tar Heels until I has spoken judiciarily
speaking.

So I'll keep comments about Dean's team annual losing-to-lesser (notice I
didn't even say Dean choked?) in his design to not peak to win a
championship to myself.

TTom
17.1847Symphathize for UVa Hawk. They're 2-73 at Chapel Hill! (heh)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Aug 05 1991 16:269
    As someone who's representing Carolina basketball in this forum Hawk I
    gotta admit to being disgusted by your analogy.  UNC basketball "the
    little Chihuahua" compared to the likes of "150 lb. German Shepherds"
    from Virginia or NC Skate?!  
    
    Haw haw haw!!!!!!!!111111
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1848HPSRAD::RIEURead his Lips...Know new taxes!Mon Aug 05 1991 16:424
       Yeah HAwk, UNC IS the big German Shep. Only trouble is, when it gets
    to the big dog fight it gits the snot kicked outta it by a Cocker
    Spaniel.
                                          Denny
17.1849Spike is my friend, aren'tcha, Spike? Spike? Spike?SHALOT::MEDVIDboys have wants, girls have needsMon Aug 05 1991 16:4416
>                       <<< Note 17.1846 by SASE::SZABO >>>
>                           -< Losing my sympathy... >-
>
>    yourself, you act like the little Chihuahua who just cain't seem to 
               ^^^
>    leave that unimpressed 150 lb. German Shepherd guard dog alone...

    Even though you'd like to think so, Chris Knorr is not synonymous with
    UNC basketball.  Hawk's analogy is:

    	Knorr is to Chihuahua as Hunt is to 150 lb. German Shepherd

    In fact, that will probably be on this year's SAT's...not that that
    recruit of UNC's from SC could pass it.

    	--dan'l
17.1850Just a little few extra things, okay, Denny ???SHALOT::HUNTRIP, Chris ShortMon Aug 05 1991 17:0318
17.1851You forgot to mention that the German Shepards nose was warm before the fightOURGNG::RIGGENJeff Riggen &quot;RSS&quot;Mon Aug 05 1991 17:200
17.1852Deanos Kennel KlubHPSRAD::RIEURead his Lips...Know new taxes!Mon Aug 05 1991 17:203
       Awful sportin' of the shep eh Bob?!! Must be a big character builder
    for the young pups to get to the big fight and fail so often.
                                        Denny
17.1853Don't axe me, axe Randy Livingston or Eric Montross. :^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Aug 05 1991 17:536
    Yea, our pups fail to the tune of > 70% (average of 25 wins p/ year).
    
    Woof!  WOOF!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1854HPSRAD::RIEURead his Lips...Know new taxes!Mon Aug 05 1991 18:003
       Somebody already axed Rick Fox. He says he "Hasn't won anything
    yet".
                                             Denny
17.1856Smith Worship, 101RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Aug 05 1991 19:4123
    > No surprise whatsoever.  Simply verifies what we've been saying all
    > along about Snuff's incredible recruiting success.
    
    You missed my point by several light years, Ketch.  The issue isn't
    whether or not we get Livingston or not, but the fact that he:
    
    1. Acknowledges that Dean teaches the fundamentals better than anybody.
    
    and
    
    2. Associates playing for Dean with greatly improving his chances of
       making the NBA.
    
    Bottom line: Dean gets top talent cause Dean develops talent better
    		 than anybody in the college game, and if you don't 
    		 believe me write a letter to Eric Montross or Randy
    		 Livingston instead of replying in here, cause they're
    		 the ones making my point.
    
    (Insert many vewy happy faces)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1857STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishMon Aug 05 1991 19:5212
    What point was made???
    
    I've heard recruits say that about Jim Boeheim who I think is extremely
    overated in terms of coaching ability(great recruiter though)
    
    So what your saying is that Jim Boeheim = Dean Smith...
    
    I guess you did make a point Chris, way to go....
    
    
    
    
17.1858RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Aug 05 1991 19:569
    What recruits said that Jim Baywhine (tm) is great at developing talent
    anyways Cap?!  For years and years he had the exact opposite
    reputation.  Heck, it's only been the last several years that Syracuse
    has put ANYBODY in the pros for any duration.  
    
    I'd like some quotes, please.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1859Hmmm, looks like hostilities about to recommenceSHALOT::HUNTRIP, Chris ShortMon Aug 05 1991 20:5540
17.1860DCLIB::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Mon Aug 05 1991 21:276
    I'm back from vacation.  I didn't plow through every note in this
    conference in an effort to get caught up but rumor has it that I'm
    being asked to participate in a panel relevant to this particular
    rathole.  If someone can point me to it, I'll consider jumping in.
    
    Ninj
17.1861STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishTue Aug 06 1991 10:4827
    ACChris,
    
    Greg Monroe(2.5 year starter) who played on Boeheim's runner-up team
    in 1987 was one of them(we went to the same H.S. for a few years).
    
    He always stated that he was going to Syracuse 'because he felt that
    Boeheim could best prepare him fundamentally for the pros'
    
    I've read similar comments from Billy Owens and Stephen Thompson.  
    
    Why do I remember these, because I laughed my head off after reading
    them, just as I do with your feeble replies to the facts I provide you
    with....:-)
    
    I think Jim Boeheim is the closest comparison as a coach that we can
    make to Dean.  He's a great recruiter, wins 70-75% of his regular
    season games, has fantastic talent(but not better than NC) and chokes
    when it comes to the big dance(NCAA tourney), plus they're two of the 
    geekiest looking coaches in the game today.
    
    In the future, please remember that I don't enter a note in this file
    without the facts to back it up.  If you remember that than you won't
    get embarrassed.
    
    Cap(who spent several years in upstate NY)
    
    
17.1862You disapoint me Cap. RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Aug 06 1991 11:3816
    Vague recollections ain't the same thing as facts Cap.  Sorry.
    
    In my case I've got direct quotes from possibly the best HS prospect
    since Michael Jordan.  I've also got logic on my side.  I mean, it's a
    universally accepted fact that Carolina players have a leg up on 
    the competition when entering the pros.  I've read comments from NBA
    GM's, coaches, etc. about this very thing.  (And so have you, no
    doubt.)  The numbers prove it out (number of pros Dean has turned out).
    
    In the case of Baywhine (tm) his number of players who've gone pro 
    were almost nonexistent until the last several years.  
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1863Do you save everything in hopes it will prove a point?SHALOT::MEDVIDtime is eternalTue Aug 06 1991 11:569
>    Vague recollections ain't the same thing as facts Cap.  Sorry.
    
>    I've read comments from NBA
>    GM's, coaches, etc. about this very thing. 
    
    OK, Signor Knorr, please post one from 1987 (the same time frame Cap
    was "vaguely recollecting").
    
    	--dan'l
17.1864Only 2 months til hoops practice starts!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Aug 06 1991 12:2154
> Meanwhile, tired old ringless senior exits Deanville with 5-for-22
> collar around his neck, admits his truth-hurts hunger for any kind of
> a title, and Faithful blow him off like yesterday's soiled jockstrap.
    
    Who's blowing off Rick Fox?  Not me, that's for sure.  Fox has now
    gone on to the next phase of his Carolina/Dean experience - that of
    alumnus.  It's now time for me to start scanning the box scores to
    monitor his progress, rooting him on, and generally watching his 
    career develop.  (Kinda like a proud papa.)
 
    I haven't commented on Rick's quote because it seems so ridiculous.  He
    couldn't said the same thing even if we'd won the national championship
    last year.  ("I haven't won [even a single NBA game] yet.")  And even
    if he was referencing the fact that he didn't win a National Title at
    UNC, so what?  It's too bad, it's obvious, but overall I doubt he'd
    confess to any disapointment in his choice of school.  (Vewy, vewy
    doubtful folks, cause I dare say nobody woulda taken Fox out of HS
    and turned him into a middle 1st round draft selection, other
    than Dean.  Just my opinion, mind you.)
     
    > Not to mention that the young lad's motives sound a helluva lot like 
    > the dreaded "hired gun" theory.   Of course, the Faithful ignore that 
    > little piece of hypocrisy.
    
    We ignore it because there is no hypocrisy.  This whole "hired gun"
    theory has gotta be the weakest of weak links in your bogus platform.  
    There's nothing wrong with a HS player combining a basketball education
    with a scholastic education.  NOTHING.  There *is* something wrong with
    a professional athlete from another country coming over here for the
    sole purpose of playing college basketball, with absolutely no
    intention of earning a degree.  Associating this kindof player in ANY
    way with Dean is even more of a joke, cause I can assure you no player
    will show up at Chapel Hill without full realization that they're there
    for academics *first*.
 
> I mean, where is Motive No. 3 ...
    
    Nope, I didn't ignore it, but let's face it: when you're the #1
    basketball prospect in the USA your first concern isn't whether
    school A has a bigger library than school B.  No doubt a kid like Randy
    Livingston is thinking about hoops, hoops, and more hoops.  He
    admits to being a Carolina fan 'since he was 12', so he's probably
    imagining what it'll be like to don the uniform that so many great
    players have worn before him.  (Hint: the color of that uniform is
    light blue.)  
    
    But before Dean closes the deal and inks him to a letter of intent,
    rest assured he'll have made it clear to Mr. Livingston that
    *academics* will be where his first priority must lie if he wants
    to become part of the Carolina tradition.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.1865misplacedHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowTue Aug 06 1991 12:2615
>    In my case I've got direct quotes from possibly the best HS prospect
>    since Michael Jordan.  

I feel it is my duty to point out that whoever this supposed latest and
greatest is or whatever he said, the reference to the "best HS prospect
since Michael Jordan" is not the compliment that it seems. Michael Jordan
was not even the highest rated player in NC his senior year. That honor
went to Buzz Peterson, who also went to No Carolina and is now coaching
at State.

>    I've also got logic on my side.  

No evidence has been presented to The Panel to support this.

TTom
17.1866Jordan ecclipsed Peterson late in the recruiting cycleRHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportTue Aug 06 1991 14:3121
    re: TTom
    
    Michael was relatively unknown heading into his senior campaign, but
    during the summer camps he literally exploded into the national
    spotlight.  Most of the recruiting rags had him rated as one of top
    prospects in the USA at that point, and the recruiting intensified.
    I can't remember the other schools that were on his 'Short List'.
    
    One of the interesting aspects of Jordan that helps explain his
    unparalleled game is his growth.  During HS he was only around 5-8 or
    so.  Pretty sure he even got cut from his HS team when he was a
    sophomore.  But then he started to grow, and reached around 6-2 
    by the time he arrived at Chapel Hill.  
    
    But then, ... he kept growing!  He had all the agility and quickness of 
    a smallish guard, but in a 6-6 body.  Combine that with phenomenal
    leaping ability and you've got (as Larry Bird describes him) "God
    disguised as a basketball player".
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1867Duty, Honor, CountrySHALOT::HUNTWho invented liquid soap and why ???Tue Aug 06 1991 14:589
 So much for the truce.   {Actually, it's a mild upset that it lasted
 all of two weeks anyway.}
 
 The gloves are off.   This unashamed and truly pathetic gushing of
 Snuff Worship can only be met with quote cold unquote steel.
 
 Lock and load, Brother Henchmen.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1868CAM::WAYCall her up on the spank lineTue Aug 06 1991 15:1224

        In Chapel Hill

		(with apologies to Lt Col John McCrae)

        In Chapel Hill the losses grow
	In titles quests, row on row,
		That mark the place where hope has died
		The Snuffer, still choking, sighs
	Scarce heard amid the groans so low.

	We are the Heels.  Short days ago
	we played, and scored, felt Victory close,
		picked and were picked, and now
		we've lost, in Chapel Hill

	Take up our quarrel with the foe,
	To you from failing hands we throw
		The chicken bone, hold it high,
		If ye break faith with us who die
	We shall not sleep where losses grow,
 	in Chapel Hill.

17.1869RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGENESYS - A Digital Success Story!Tue Aug 06 1991 17:5022
    Chris -
    
    The whole 'quoting' of recruits is pretty lame.  Of course the kid is
    going to say some party line about being 'happy as a pig in poop to be
    going ta UNC wif Couch Smif cuz he teaches blah blah blah'.  
    
    If the Snuffmeister is so gosh darn golly gee great at developing this
    talent, then why in hell's bells can't he mold a team of superstars
    into a damn national champeeeeen??  That's the question Chris.  I
    thought by now you'd have understood that.
    
    The Snuffster's record when it really counts is a matter record.  All
    the dastistics (tm) and quotes from starry eyed 17-year-olds aren't
    going to change the fack (tm) that Snuffy is woefully inadequate in
    being able to bring home the trophy.  He recruits superbly.  The Pick
    and ROll notwithstanding, he alledgedly teaches great fundamentals. 
    His kids graduate (eventually), he tolerates abuses (girl beating,
    etc...), and rolls over folks in the regular season.  The media adores
    him.  (The EVIL media Chris.....)  His teams get MORE exposure than any
    other college program.   ANd he can't win champeenships.
    
    JD
17.1870HTHRIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGENESYS - A Digital Success Story!Tue Aug 06 1991 17:5911
    Chris -
    
    YOu keep mentioning UNC players and the pros.  Granted there are some
    great ones out there - Jordan, WOrthy et al.  But in 1989, two schools
    had the most pro players in the NBA.  UNC and Notre Dame.  So, I guess
    Digger Phelps is just as good as the Deanster in developing hoops
    talent.  In fact, given they had the same number, I'd say Digger was
    better, since he was working with H.S. recruits lower on the list of
    stars than the Deanmeister.
    
    JD
17.1871More Soup logicSHALOT::HUNTWho invented liquid soap and why ???Wed Aug 07 1991 02:2613
17.1872CAM::WAYCall her up on the spank lineWed Aug 07 1991 11:074
Careful there Soup.  I heard that Pee Wee had a leg up before he got
caught on his morals charge.

We all know that Dean just LOVES to choke, so he'd best be careful.....
17.1873More fuel for the Henchmen fire! More coverup for Knorr to doSHALOT::MEDVIDtime is eternalSat Aug 10 1991 14:068
    
    King Rice was arrested Friday and charged with DWI after blowing a 2.0
    breathalizer, twice the legal limit.
    
    There go those darn Chapel Hill police picking on poor King again.  Can
    you believe it!?!
    
    	--dan'l
17.1874CAM::WAYCall her up on the spank lineMon Aug 12 1991 10:493
Hmmmmm...wonder what the Seniors will come up with this time...

Perhaps he'll have to carry the Snuffmeister's briefcase for a game or two....
17.1875Faithful Spin Control on its way, no doubtSHALOT::HUNTWho invented liquid soap and why ???Mon Aug 12 1991 13:233
 Looks like Snuff will have to light the "Tough Love" grill again. 
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1876King Lice strikes again, and so does Crisp.ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYI came. I saw. I hockered.Mon Aug 12 1991 13:5612
    >Dean gets top talent cause Dean develops talent better than anybody
    >in the college game... I've also got logic on my side...
    
    And therein lies one a the Final Four Big Questions that you so oily
    evade, Crock (tm): What is the conflict between talent development and
    Title attainment.  How cain it be possible to teach better than anybody
    and yet end up with such paltry results at the big show?
    
    Unteal you answer that question and the other three all you got on your
    side is open running sores.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1877:^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Aug 12 1991 13:5910
    Shame on Dean for forcing KingRice to foolishly intoxicate himself
    before getting behind the wheel!  FOR SHAME!!  I mean, it was bad
    enough for him to pin him down and force the bottle to his mouth, but
    when Deano handed him the keys, opened the door, and shoved him into
    the drivers seat, well, I_think he went too far.
    
    Everybody happy now?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1878I humbly submit this as answer to one of MorT's 4 questions...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Aug 12 1991 14:2753
    > and yet end up with such paltry results at the big show?
    
    Carolina's NCAA results are hardly "paltry".  Dean's won more NCAA
    games than anybody (including Wooden) and set a record by getting to
    his 11th straight Sweet 16.  His NCAA winning % hovers around the
    70% mark.  He's been to eight (8) Final 4's.
    
    I've said it before and I'll say it again: the winner of the NCAA
    Tournament is *very* rarely the best team in the country.  You must be
    both lucky and good to win a Title, given the best-of-1 format that's
    used.  Our singular Title is the result of:
    
    1. Bad luck.  Key injuries and illness to Carolina players at tourney
       time are well chronicled by this writer.  Tommy LeGarde in '77.
       KSmith in '84.  Steve Hale in '85.  (He was a DNP in the Villanova
       'L').  Lebo in '87.  Possibly Fox in '91.  These were all years
       when Dean had the best shot at incrementing his 'Title' statistic,
       but to win a tourney you gotta be hitting on *all* cylinders, and
       we weren't.
    
    2. The System is geared toward player development and consistent
       excellence, *NOT* end-of-season peaks.  Dean could possibly have
       won a Title or 2 more if he scrapped his religious zeal for
       unselfish play and balanced scoring, but at what cost?  Players
       would not come out of UNC with the best basketball education in
       the USA, for one.  Our NCAA Tourney record might way heavier in
       the Title column, but there's no way the 11 straight Sweet 16's
       would stand up.  
    
       As a textbook example, consider MichaelJordan.  I doubt too many
       people would believe that Dean didn't realize he had one
       mega-talented player on his hands.  Many coaches would've let
       Jordan do whatever Jordan wanted to do.  Again, I doubt too many
       would argue that he could've averaged at least 25+ ppg.
    
       But would we see the complete player we see today if he'd gone to,
       say, Syracuse?  Would he have been the Defensive PoY as often as
       he has?  Would he be AirJordan if he hadn't learned the *complete*
       game under Dean?  
    
       No need to answer, cause Jordan himself alread has.  He unequivacably 
       heaps mega-praise on "Coach" Smith for giving him a basketball 
       education second to none.  Listen to virtually any Carolina alum
       and they'll tell you they might've played more at another school;
       they probably woulda scored more at another school; they mighta had
       their ego stroked more at another school; ... BUT, ... Coach Smith
       prepared them better for life (be it in pro hoops or otherwise)
       than any other coach possible could have, and that most definitely
       includes the quasi-psychotic and player/fan/media intimidator Bob
       Fight (tm).
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1879c'est idiot!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYI came. I saw. I hockered.Mon Aug 12 1991 14:435
    re 1
    
    HA HAA HAA HOO HAAA HEE AH HA HHAHAHAHAHA !!
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1880Dean Dives In MarchSHALOT::HUNTWho invented liquid soap and why ???Mon Aug 12 1991 14:5329
17.1881The delta is very small and statistically meaninglessRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Aug 12 1991 15:0813
    re: .-2
    
    Hey, great intellectual comeback MorT.  Really put me in *my* place.
    Heh heh!
    
    
    re: .-1
    
    Yes, you did "run the numbers", but the results had Dean at 69%, if
    memory serves.  This was before our 4-1 '91 run too.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1882HPSRAD::RIEURead his Lips...Know new taxes!Mon Aug 12 1991 15:266
   > used.  Our singular Title is the result of:
   > 1. Bad luck.  Key injuries and illness to Carolina players at tourney
    
     Well, at least he got this part right. Only thing is it was
    Georgetown's 'bad luck' not Snuffer's.
                                     Denny
17.1883RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOPETA - a useless organizationMon Aug 12 1991 15:3011
    Chris -
    
    Thanks for admititng King Rice's DWI was dean's fault.  After all, you
    are quick to point out that all that's good about Deans' players is the
    result of Dean, but have in the past, said you can't blam Deano for the
    bad things.
    
    So King has  a DWI and a_A&B... not bad.  I wonda if he learnt the
    P&R??
    
    JD
17.1884STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishMon Aug 12 1991 15:4113
    Re: King Rice
    
    If Dean had handled the situation properly last year when Rice was
    wasted and beating up a women, punching holes in walls and resisting
    arrest, than maybe his alcohol problem would have been cleared up..
    
    Re: Dean's bad luck
    
    In everyone of Knight's title wins, a key star player has been injured
    before or during the title game.  Wilkerson in 76', Kitchel in 81' and
    Calloway in 87'.  Each time he has still won the title.  I guess Dean
    can't overcome adversity and stick one of the superstars on his 12-deep
    bench into the system and win one win it really counts....
17.1885ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYI came. I saw. I hockered.Mon Aug 12 1991 17:2016
    re 1
    
    Cap, you penetrating analyst you, you're too rough on Bob: Bad luck
    struck in the worst way in '75 when star Scott May went down with
    a broken arm.  Most think that had this not happened, IU woulda went
    onto to a_undefeated season that year, which'd put Bob at 4::10 instead
    a merely 3::20 (which is the fastest rate over the first 20 years ever
    by anybody, I think, including even Wooden.
    
    But, this is splitting hares, cuz with Bob ain't no excuses needed.  He
    has posted the Results, and boy, are they ever good!
    
    For excuses, please refer to UNC-Chapel Heel Star Hells and their faux
    alumnus ("I bleed Carolina blew") ACCrock (tm).
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1886So what!DEMING::MCKAYMon Aug 12 1991 22:514
    Cap how do you know Rice has a drinking problem?  We're talking about
    a 21 year old here who's had two "incidents", big deal...
    
    Jimbo
17.1887STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishTue Aug 13 1991 13:4427
    Anyone stupid enough to get into a car with a alcohol blood level of
    .2 has a drinking problem.  Anyone who is smashed out of his mind,
    choking his girlfriend, resisting arrest and smashes his fist through
    a wall at a police station has a drinking problem.
    
    King has a very immature attitude(and at 21, you should have
    responsibility) towards alcohol and that constitutes a drinking
    problem.
    
    I didn't say he was an alcoholic, but he has a problem with drinking.  
    Anyone who has had incidents like this has most likely had many others, 
    these were just publicized.  If you don't think someone has a problem 
    with alcohol after two incidents like that than maybe you should put in 
    what you believe constitutes a problem with drinking.
    
    King should thank his lucky stars that he didn't kill anyone that
    night.  Maybe some of Dean's 'tough' love would have prevented this
    latest travesty, if he had given out a punishment instead of letting
    his seniors do it.  Let's hope that the kid gets help, because if he 
    doesn't the odds are that he'll get back in the car again after tying
    one on.
    
    It's sad, because I stated last year, that I thought King was going to
    have further problems because of how lightly he was treated by his
    coach and school and unfortunately it was true.
    
    Cap who lost two close friends to a drunk driver
17.1888CAM::WAYCall her up on the spank lineTue Aug 13 1991 13:5719
I've got a friend who used to drink a lot.

In fact, after one trip we were recently on together, where he got
totally cocked for almost the whole time, he got smart when he came back,
and checked himself into rehab.  He finally realized that he couldn't
handle alcohol.  He's been clean ever since, and that includes the times
he hangs around those of us who drink a bit...


If Dean had possessed any smarts at all, he would have put old King baby
into rehab.

I mean, hey, I'd like a deal like what King's got.  I got out, get cocked,
do the Pee Wee thing to my girlfriend's neck cause she won't do the Pee Wee
thing and more to me, and then come into work and have my fellow employees
decide my punishment...  Pretty cool...


This kid needs some help....
17.1889RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Aug 13 1991 14:3218
    I hate to keep bringing facts into the discussion, but what the hey.
    
    Dean did NOT have his seniors decide on King's punishment.  He
    implemented them himself, but kept the details private.  The only
    public comment I've heard is that King had to personally apologize to
    each teammate, and that there were additional punishments that would
    not be made public.  This may or may not have included rehab for
    alcohol abuse.  It's entirely possible it didn't, because one wild
    incident does not automatically mean someone has a drinking problem.
    
    Course all you 20/20 hindsight weasels will never admit to this,
    given the fact that something negative relative to Carolina basketball
    is involved.
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1890CAM::WAYCall her up on the spank lineTue Aug 13 1991 15:3828
>    public comment I've heard is that King had to personally apologize to
>    each teammate, and that there were additional punishments that would
>    not be made public.  This may or may not have included rehab for


I can see it now.  King Rice on Double Secret Probation:


	Dean:  Okay, King, in front of the team now, repeat, I will not
	       choke my girlfriend.

	King:  I will not....


(later)

	Dean (in front of team, swinging paddle)
	King:  Thanks you Snuffmeister, may I have another.

(later)

	Dean:  King, stick this penny up your a__ and give me 25.

	King:  One, Two, Three, Four, Five


The rest, involving lots of farm animls, atomic balm and other goodies
can't be repeated here.....
17.1891His kind ain't appreciated in Geneva...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYI came. I saw. I hockered.Wed Aug 14 1991 12:3811
    17 has gotten to be like the Mideast peace process: *Finally* the
    greedy malcontent sends some signals that he might approach the
    panel and negotiate a settlement based upon a Final Solution, a sort
    a a diplomatic Final Four if you weal, but then in a flurry a evasion,
    obfuscation, and diversionary tactics when the smoke clears he's gone
    away and the proceedings are off teal another day.
    
    He won't belly up to the Final Four cuz he knows he'll lose all the
    ground that just ain't his...
    
    
17.1892No answers, cause there are no questions.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Aug 14 1991 12:4313
    I won't belly up to the Final Four cause I *still* don't know what the
    questions are.  Your vague pointers to their location proved to be 
    nothing but red herrings.  I STILL AIN'T FOUND 'EM, ... and you still
    ain't reposted 'em.
    
    Is this your clever way of winning the game before it's even been
    played?  The equivalent of trying the case in the press before it even
    reaches the courtroom?
    
    Oh, and I still ain't heared if you got my Bob article.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1893SHALOT::HUNTWho invented liquid soap and why ???Wed Aug 14 1991 16:0414
17.1894CHICKENANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYI came. I saw. I hockered.Wed Aug 14 1991 16:041
    
17.1895last year for ACC-Big East ChallengeHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowMon Aug 19 1991 12:569
The ACC-Big East Challenge will end after this season. Coaches seemed to
be the main opponents to this pre-season tourney. Every year they
complained about the pairings and sites. Another problem was the timing,
which usually coincided with first semester's finals.

The NCAA cut the number of games that can be played and the hours that
teams can practice and this didn't help. 

TTom
17.1896GOOBER::ROSSUp to my eyeballsTue Aug 20 1991 13:155
Can anyone supply a progress report on Eric Montross from the
Pan-Am games... I only saw the first couple box scores, and he 
was a non-factor in all of them.   Did he get any significant 
playing time in the later games?   

17.1897What a joke to even select him!TNPUBS::NAZZAROPennant Fever? I'm immune by nowWed Aug 21 1991 18:425
    He took up a lot of space on the bench.
    
    HTH,
    
    NAZZ
17.1898Poor coaching + young talent = MedicorityANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Aug 22 1991 17:101
    
17.1899"Medicority"???? please translate, thx ;^)CST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Thu Aug 22 1991 17:141
    
17.1900Thanks for the memories Dean!TECA17::ROPERBillyMartin,WoodyHayes,BobKnightThu Aug 22 1991 23:4732
    Okay, Okay, I've stalled long enough.  Being a new noter and a B-Ball
    fan to boot, I realize that I must voice my opinion on the Deanster as
    well.  Why do I have this sinking feeling about entering this note? :-)
    
    I lost all respect (okay, so I didn't have any to start with) for the
    Deanster back in the mid 70's.  Anyone figure out why yet? (hummin
    jeopardy theme)  If you guessed the 4-Corner offense, then you win an
    all expense paid trip to the "How to win friends and influence people"
    seminar sponsered by Bob Knight :-)  The Deanster had legends such as 
    James Naismith and Adolph Rupp turning over in their respective graves.
    Dean nearly ruined the game we've come to know and love with his
    version of "stall ball".  Were it not for Phil (Keep Away) Ford, Dean
    would have had a pretty rough go of it in the mid to late 70's.  Come
    on Deanster, the game was never meant to be played(?) that way!
    
    Now about all that talent Dean has had in the 80's.  I must agree with
    ACC Chris who brought up the point several notes back that the best
    team doesn't always win.  Anyone that would dispute that point need
    only look as far back as 1987 when Bob (Humble) Knight led(?) his team
    to the title.  If Bobby hadn't intimidated the officials in the LSU
    game or if Derrick Coleman could've hit a 'throw, '87 would have been a
    totally different story.  I doubt even MrT would argue the fact that IU
    was not the most talented team in 1987.  Oh, I almost forgot, they
    actually won the darn thing on a miracle shot by Keith (Not Too) Smart!
    
    
    Granted, the Deanster has an overall good tourney record, but I still can't
    forgive the man for assaulting the very fabric of the game with the feared
    4-Corner's in the 70's. :-) :-)
    
    Wildcat
                                   
17.1901another heard fromHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowFri Aug 23 1991 10:503
Welcome to the fray, Wildcat.

TTom
17.1902HPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Fri Aug 23 1991 11:288
       HAs Crisp ever tried to defend the '4-corners'? I musta missed it
    cause I'm sure he did. The way I look at it the only reason to do it is
    to 'win' the game right? And if 'winning' the game is not as important
    as building the character of the players and all that drivel, then why
    bother using it? So on one hand you have snuffer stifling the skills of
    his players and on the other we have Crisp telling us what a great
    'system' he has/had.
                                         Denny
17.19034-corners built discipline for the pros, blah, blah, blah...GUSHER::WAUGAMANFri Aug 23 1991 12:598
    
    Crisp's life is a contradiction, Denny.  Don't confuse him further,
    or he'll just crank up the Dean-o-Drooler another notch and wipe away
    the criticism on blind faith.  Before you know it, we'll be having to
    yank him out of the airport again...
    
    glenn
    
17.1904Anti-Dean RuleWMOIS::REEVE_CFri Aug 23 1991 13:236
    The Four Corners brought one (and only one) positive thing to college
    hoops-- the badly needed shot clock. So I'll praise Dean for his
    foresightedness in recognizing the need for a shot clock and forcing
    its' introduction in a backhanded sort of way.
    
    Chris
17.1905Huh!!??CTHQ2::LEARYFri Aug 23 1991 14:006
    -1,
    That's like saying Attila the Hun knew a rape law was needed so he
    instructed his hordes to rape at will until society recognized that
    hey, Attila is such a great guy! He's backhandedly telling us we need
    a rape law!  quel logique!
    
17.1906RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOSheain'tpretty,justlooksthatwayFri Aug 23 1991 14:587
    Wildcat -
    
    Welcome.  I share your thoughts about the 4-corners.  It is what turned
    me into an anti-Dean person.  Yet, that's his 'contribution' to the
    game.  Turning it from a sport to a quilting bee.
    
    JD
17.1907I'm not so sure about all this....CST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Fri Aug 23 1991 15:2712
    Wait a minit here!
    
    I like reading about dean-bashing as much as the nexted(tm) guy
    but I'm not sure HE was the 4C man.
    
    Didn't Marquette (with those WILD uniforms) and some guy named
    MacGuyer do it first?
    
    deen to wonk et al.....
    
    Kev
    
17.1908TECA17::ROPERBillyMartin,WoodyHayes,BobKnightFri Aug 23 1991 15:598
    The Deanster may not have invented the 4C, but he used it to take the
    game to a level of BOREDOM of which we shall never see again! :-)
    
    Can't you just see Dean talking with Montross?  "You know Eric, you're
    just a slow farm boy, but you would've been great at the top of the key
    in my 4-Corners!"  many :-)'s
    
    Wildcat
17.1909System 101RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Aug 23 1991 17:1835
    There's one very clear reason why so many people hated the 4C offense: 
    JEALOUSY.  Because the fact of the matter is it was successful an
    unbelievable amount of the time, especially when PhilFord was directing
    traffic.  
    
    As such there's really no need for me to defend 4 Corners.  It was well 
    within the bounds of the rules of the game.  It was outrageously
    successful.  We won many more games because of its brilliance than we
    would've without it.  Many, many coaches copied it, and it's still used
    today when stall tactics are called for.
    
    I do find it ironic though that many associate 'stall ball' with Dean
    and Carolina basketball, because we're typically one of the highest
    scoring teams in the country.  Dean's very much an uptempo coach, which
    is one of the key ingredients to getting top-notch HS talent.  (No
    matter how much a buffoon we may all think Jim Baywhine (tm) is, give
    him credit for recognizing this...)  The System wants to maximize the
    number of possessions, cause Deano knows that we're gonna be more
    disciplined than the other guys and get better shots.  He also likes
    our chances with a pressure defense to create turnovers.  The more
    possessions you give a team, the potential for more turnovers.  One
    controversial aspect to The System that I have a hard time with
    sometimes is the Scramble, which typically either results in an easy
    shot for the opponent or a turnover.  Dean concedes the easy shots,
    feeling that as long as we're disrupting the opponents offense and
    making them do things they're not used to, it's worthwhile.  (Within
    limits.)  Often this works, but if a coach can prepare for Carolina in
    such a way as to expect to be out of your offense alot and take
    advantage of these situations, it can work against us.  (Witness this
    years Final 4 against Kansas, when their freelance offense was
    effective.  When Valvano, Driesel, or Holland were giving Dean a rare 
    beating, this was usually evident as well ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1910RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOSheain'tpretty,justlooksthatwayFri Aug 23 1991 17:4614
    Chris -
    
    Jealous of the 4 courners?  YOu are insane my man.  Certifiable.
    
    It ruined college ball - but at least it got the shot clock in.  How
    could anyone who calls themselves a basketball fan like the 4C
    offensive.
    
    It was offensive to watch, that's for sure.  A real wimp offense.  A
    squandering of talent, and bastardization of the game.
    
    Made the game look like a CYO Girl's Youth League game.
    
    JD
17.1912HPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Mon Aug 26 1991 11:149
>    him credit for recognizing this...)  The System wants to maximize the
>    number of possessions, cause Deano knows that we're gonna be more
>    disciplined than the other guys and get better shots.  He also likes
<    our chances with a pressure defense to create turnovers.  The more
    
    
     So how does this fit in with the 4-corpses? How did stalling 'maximize
    the number of possessions'? 
                                           Denny  
17.1913ah the good ol daysHBAHBA::HAASSaint Frank and the Magic CowMon Aug 26 1991 13:0421
Good subrathole, here. Are we giving up on Dean vs Bobby Knight, now that
T's on his way out?  Just curious.

But if you love to hate Dean, you gotta love hating the 4 corners. One of
the reasons for its success and one of the reasons why it was especially
effective for a while was it is rather difficult to implement. You need a
Phil Ford. As No Carolina found out in its latter years of useage not
just any guard can do the trick.

Some of my favorite games are when the 4 corners failed. First of all,
remember that even with Phil Ford, Dean, by design, didn't win it all and
lost their last game of every season with it. I say that to remind that
it was not an unbeatable system. A good for instance was the 1983 semis
of the ACC when they were up 4 points and had the ball in OT against
State. The Tar Heel offense parked and State pulled it out and went on to
beat Virginia to win the ACC and qualify for the tourney they won.

The main reason for the demise of the 4 corners was, of couse, the clock.

TTom

17.1914We need a "Yeltsin"SHALOT::HUNTWho invented liquid soap and why ???Mon Aug 26 1991 13:2510
 Two Fridays ago, Mikhail Gorbachev and I both took some vacation time
 off.   "Mikey" came back to one helluva different place than he left
 it.
 
 I come back to Soup claiming we're all just jealous of the Four
 Corners.
 
 Sigh.  Some things change and some things don't.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1915STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishMon Aug 26 1991 13:2623
    My favorite 4-corners game is when Dean choked on the 4-corners in
    the championship game against Marquette.  After battling back from
    an 11-point defecit in the 2nd half and tying the score in an
    impressive rally, Smith shocking both his players and the opposing
    coach called for the 4-corners with over 9 minutes to play.  
    
    Al Maguire said 1) He couldn't believe that Smith went to it, when NC
    had Marquette reeling with their momentum and 2) It was the moment that
    he had his team prepared four.
    
    Marquette overplayed the backdoor cuts and came up with a couple of
    timely steals and defensive stops to take the lead.  Then came the
    killer, Marquette unveiled their own version of the 4-corners and
    Carolina could not defend against this offense, as Marquette easily
    scored with layups.  Even though they practiced this offense on a daily
    basis, NC could not defend against it(Could this be the coaches
    fault?).
    
    This coaching display by Smith was one of the worst coached final games
    in the history of the NCAA.  One that Boeheim or Guy Lewis would have
    been proud of.....
    
    
17.1916RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOWhat a 100 meters!!!Mon Aug 26 1991 14:328
    Cap -
    
    IO remember that game.  I rooted for Marquette bnig time - being a
    Maguire fan then (though now I can do without him...)
    
    Loved it...
    
    JD
17.1917Actually use to cheer when he'd call for itSHALOT::HUNTWho invented liquid soap and why ???Mon Aug 26 1991 14:4322
 Carolina faithful worship the Four Corners because they believe it
 alone won a lot of games but, in reality, it turned huge Carolina
 leads into nerve-wracking but unnecessary Carolina squeak-bys.
 
 Seemed like every time Carolina would get up by 15 or so late in the
 game and Dean would call for the Four Corners, Carolina would
 immediately let the opponent back in the game.   Carolina usually won
 but the final margin would be a nail-biting 6 or 8 points when it
 could have and should have been 18 or 20.
 
 First time I ever saw Carolina use it against Virginia, I was pissed.  
 Then, when it became obvious that Snuff was letting us back into the
 game, we cheered when he held up the four fingers.   I'll never
 forget the puzzled look on his face when we did that.   And, sure
 enough, we'd climb right back into it.    Cut a double-digit lead
 down to single digits in a flash and then nail-bite the rest of the
 way.    Lost a lot but came all the way back on more than one
 occasion.
 
 What a great coach !!!   What a great system !!!
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1919Loved that '77 gameSHALOT::HUNTWho invented liquid soap and why ???Mon Aug 26 1991 16:0919
 No, Hawk, Dean Meminger was a Marquette Warrior in the late 60's and
 early 70's.   He might still have been around for the 1974 squad that
 lost to David Thompson's NC State Wolfpack but I don't think so.
 
 The 1977 Marquette national champs had Butch Lee who played on Puerto
 Rico's 1976 Olympic team ... that scared the crap outta Snuff's
 American team.   They also Jerome Whitehead and several other studs.
 
 But, of course, Carolina had several future NBA stars like Phil Ford,
 Mike O'Koren, Tommy LaGarde, and Walter Davis and still couldn't
 bring the ring home.   I seem to recall the Baby Blue Excuse Bible
 has this one filed under "Losses To Emotionally Overcharged Teams"
 since Big Al was making his swan song that night.
 
 It was obviously just the ticket Snuff needed to punch out with yet
 another by-design, end-of-season, non-peak with yet another favored
 and supremely talented bunch.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1920Cain't let this slip bySHALOT::HUNTRIP, KGB.Wed Aug 28 1991 13:019
 Pretty sad stuff here.   Looks like the Soupster's gonna escape come
 this Friday when MrT departs Mother Digital.
 
 T, as a final act of teamwork and solidarity, if you would be so kind
 as to post your complete and definitive set of questions for Soup to
 answer, we will be more than happy to hound him mercilessly until he
 bellies up to the bar and meets the challenge.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1921Phil Ford == 4C (gives me goose bumps remembering ...)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Aug 28 1991 14:2322
    Ketch, that funny look Dean was giving u & your frat brothers was
    no_doubt his shock at how you could be so happy to know that you were
    about to lose.  The number of games Carolina lost when going to the 4
    Corners was very, very low.  Not to say it never happened, but the
    percentages were clearly with 4C as opposed to running your normal
    offense.  (BTW, I often give you that same look.  'How the hey can
    Ketch be so dense about Dean & Carolina, given the number of times
    we've beaten up on his alma mater?!', is the root cause of my
    perplexed facial expression, but *then* I usually remember that huge
    chip on your shoulder, and my gaze turns to one of knowing insight! 
    Heh heh!!!)
    
    
    re: MrT
    
    You guys have gotta be kidding if you really believe MorT's
    up-and-leaving.  I don't buy it - not for a minute.  Dan and JoJ leave
    and then, outa the blue, MrT announces he's leaving?  Yea, right.
    Stay tuned for his Monday morning note, folks.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1922And a stash of laquer under the vanitySHALOT::MEDVIDinbuilt guilt catches up with youWed Aug 28 1991 15:5713
>   Dean & Carolina, ...is the root cause of my
>    perplexed facial expression
    
    And I only thought you got that look on your face when you locked
    yourself in the baffroom with your Carolina Blue rag.
    
    Knorr Junior:  "Mommy, why is Daddy Knorrbucks making those strange
    noises in the bathroom?"
    
    Mrs. Chris (hedging):  "Um...Nothing to be concerned about, darling. 
    He has gas(pipe) problems."
    
    	--dan'l
17.1923ACC Rakes in TV Bucks from CBSRIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOMr.Haney-ConArtist or Entrepreneur?Thu Sep 05 1991 20:1110
    Well, one of AccCrisp's favorite plys is to demean other conferences
    about TV money.
    
    Well, the first checks have been issued from CBS' 1 billion dollar deal
    with the NCAA, and the big winner was:  the ACC.
    
    Yep, the ol' money grubbing ACC will receive an average of 793,000
    bucks per school from good ol CBS.   
    
    JD
17.1924You sure ???SHALOT::HUNTGotta Be Da ShoesFri Sep 06 1991 00:1019
17.1925They're #1 in the two major college sports, why not?SHALOT::MEDVIDinbuilt guilt catches up with youFri Sep 06 1991 13:484
    When you offer a quality product, people will buy at any cost.  Digital
    could take a lesson from the ACC.
    
    	--dan'l
17.1926RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOMr.Haney-ConArtist or Entrepreneur?Fri Sep 06 1991 14:5011
    Bob -
    
    Yep, I'm sure - why Auburn received over 500K.
    
    The Big10 was second overall, they averaged over 700K..
    
    Let me explain - this total includes all the money from the CBS 1
    Billion $$$ Deal.  I believe there were 2 checks awarded - one earlier
    (and perhaps where your Wisco info comes from) and the one yesterday.
    
    JD
17.1927ACC: Conference of the 90'sRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Sep 10 1991 15:1327
    Kudo's to the ACC for ranking #1 in the bucks department!  Course it's
    only natural that the #1 conference should also be #1 in $$$$.
    
    
    re: JD
    
    I've never been against conferences/schools making money.  Show me
    where I ever said that.  I suspect you're confused with one or two
    things I've said in the past:
    
    1. It's hypocritical for schools making mega-millions to not be able
       to legally give the kids who are bringing in all this cash even so 
       much as one (1) thin dime.
    
    2. The BigTVeast (tm) was formed soley for the purpose of making money
       and hence doesn't deserve the same kindof stature as, say, the 
       ACC or B10, whose rivalries have been around long before Dick
       Vitale started doing color commentary.
     
       Course I had to use *that* line of attack back in the days when the
       BigLeast (tm) was the #1 conference in the USA.  Now that those days
       are over, I'm off my high horse.  (Haw haw haw!!!!)
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1928Back at ya...RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOMary Ann ROOLZ!Tue Sep 10 1991 19:2518
17.1929CAM::WAYIrene Ryan is SUCH a babe!Tue Sep 10 1991 19:302
Better watch it ACC, JD'll send ya one of his many pictures of Burgess 
Meridith....
17.1930JD won't like this (but truth's been known to hurt)RHETT::KNORRACC: Conference of the 90'sTue Sep 10 1991 19:5450
17.1931RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOMary Ann ROOLZ!Tue Sep 10 1991 20:0931
    Chris -
    
    Oh, so you are whiney and upset about big East fans.  Maybe now you can
    understand why folks get on your case for your Carolina Blew idol
    worsip.  You've beat your chest so much it must be concave by now.
    What a hypocrite.  ACC fans are just as bad as Big East fans or Big 10
    fans when it comes to "My conference is better crap".  And its all
    cyclical.  The Big East is 'down' now, just as the ACC was 'down' a few
    years ago.  Now the ACC is 'up' - the Big East will be 'up' again also.
    Big deal, the ACC has won one (1) title - in 91 in the 90's - equaling
    the total of the Big West conference.  They started the 80's out pretty
    strong too.
    
    Thanks for the insights.  Basically, you are all whiney about fans from
    another conference acting like ACC fans (and ACC fans are more high and
    mighty thinking then any other - by a long shot).   
    
    So, the poor kids are being exploited.  UNC is then one of the biggest
    exploiters in all of college hoops, since they are so successful -
    right?  Wouldn't getting paid ruin the integrity of college hoops -
    after all, Chris, I thought these kids were in school for an education
    - and not to try to learn the pick and roll.  No one holds a gun to
    their head to play college hoops.  They could get financial aid and
    work to pay for school - while getting an education.
    
    You want to do a small measure to show your displeasure with the
    exploitation of these kids, Chris - don't watch any games, cancel the
    subscription to Carolina Blew, and don't go to any games - especially
    the tourney games.  By doing so, you are adding to their explotation.
    
    JD
17.1932ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYBig10: Conference Of All-TimeTue Sep 10 1991 20:1614
    Well said, ACChris.  (Except for the bull about player exploitation.)
    
    Too bad you cain't speak so forthrightly, or with such conviction (no
    pun intended) and factuality when it comes to the Bob > Dean question.
    I steel shake my haid in wonder about how yellow-bellied you went when
    you slunk off in order to avoid my Final Four.  But I understand.  You
    simply won't come clean and belly up to questions that might end up 
    resolved to your disadvantage, unlike me, when I mainfully stood up to
    Hendry's findings.  
    
    Try it sometime, you might be a better main for it.  Hell with the
    cautious wording, you *will* be a better main for it!
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1933Big East cause Chris InsommiaCNTROL::CHILDSContribute to the Assinate Steve Erkel Fund NOW!Wed Sep 11 1991 11:5315
 Long before there was a Big East Conference I enjoyed Georgetown Basketball
 as well as a few other schools in the conference. Long before there was a
 conference I hated SU. Given that the conference started in the 80's and I
 didn't start noting in here until 85 or so, I find your generalizations to
 be bunk Chris.

 Of course we're going to step up and claim our conference is better than yours
 because you'd have done the same had your conference proven to be the best.
 As would of T or anybody else who favors a different conference. SO WHAT?
 It's all in good fun, it certainly nothing to take so serious that you loose
 sleep over it....

 mike
 
17.1934No bandwagon jumper am I, I built it for Mikey! ;^)CST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Wed Sep 11 1991 12:4216
    Chris,
    
    FWIW, *I* started attending St. John's games in 1958!  Methinks
    
    that was prior to you being a smirk on yo daddy's face! ;^)
    
    The fact that SJU became a member of the BE is immaterial, in my
    
    eyes - it's the school I root for.  The conference is merely
    
    dessert!
    
    GO LOUIEEEEEE!!!!!
    
    Kev
    
17.1935ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYBig10: Conference Of All-TimeWed Sep 11 1991 13:098
    That's true.  In fack, the Redmen used to play the Indiana Hoosiers
    every year (along with McGuire's South Carolina - Bob likes to 
    schedule against highly regarded coaches who run nice programs).
    
    The Redmen have the most hoops tradition of any B Least school by
    a wide margin, IMNSHO.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1936My problem's with the conference, not the schoolsRHETT::KNORRACC: Conference of the 90'sWed Sep 11 1991 13:2919
    Kev (and to a lesser extent, MChilds),
    
    I clearly have no bone to pick with any of the respective BigLeast
    schools.  Many of them have very long and glorious hoops traditions.
    PC, St. John's, and 'Nova just might have the most illustrious 
    programs of any of 'em, over the long haul.
    
    What used to eat my shorts (as an example) were all the PC fans
    suddenly strutting their stuff about how Syracuse or Georgetown
    or somebody beat up on an ACC school, and laying claim to the Big
    East being the #1 hoops conference.  All this only a few years after
    the danged conference came into existence!  Meanwhile the ACC's been
    playing hoops for 75-or-so *years*, and we're suddenly second-dog
    to a "conference" manufactured by television execs.
    
    Git it?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1937RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOBrowardCountyPimpService,erPoliceWed Sep 11 1991 14:3018
    But Chris- in the year that Nova won the champeenship, the Big East had
    *3* of the final four - are you trying to say that fans of the Big East
    didn't have the right that year to do a little chest beating because
    they hadn't been a conference for a zillion years?
    
    That's really lame.
    
    That's like saying Mets fans in 1969 didn't have the right to say they
    were #1 because the Mets had 'only' been existence since 62, while
    other teams like Cincy had been around for ~75 years.
    
    Or Chris, is the real gist of it that you feel that ONLY ACC fans have
    the right to beat their chest?
    
    Facks is facks - for a period of the 1980's, the Big East was the best
    conference.  
    
    JD
17.1938RHETT::KNORRACC: Conference of the 90'sWed Sep 11 1991 14:508
>   Facks is facks - for a period of the 1980's, the Big East was the best
>   conference.  
    
    I refer to this period as the "Dark Years", JD.  Terrible analogy
    on the baseball thing, BTW.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1939CAM::WAYIrene Ryan is SUCH a babe!Wed Sep 11 1991 14:558
UCONN used to be a member of the Yankee Conference in both football
and basketball.  I'm sure John Hendry will tell you that the rivalries
in that conference were just as heated as any in the Big East.

I don't know about who's the best conference, but I do like the
"new" rivalries in the Big East....

'Saw
17.1940FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Wed Sep 11 1991 15:519
    UConn is still a member of the Yankee Conference in football.  For
    someone who went to UMass, UConn is pond scum.  Not quite as lowly as
    Boston College pond scum, but pond scum nonetheless.
    
    Rivalries are rivalries, no matter what league you're in.  To the
    participants and fans, Amherst vs Williams is every bit as heated as
    Alabama vs Auburn.
    
    John
17.1941CAM::WAYIrene Ryan is SUCH a babe!Wed Sep 11 1991 15:5511
>    UConn is still a member of the Yankee Conference in football.  For
>    someone who went to UMass, UConn is pond scum.  Not quite as lowly as
>    Boston College pond scum, but pond scum nonetheless.
    
Yeah, and your mother wears ARMY boots!!! 8^)

Seriously, I wasn't aware of that.  Perhaps because the population of 
the Yankee Conference has changed so greatly in the years that I've 
not followed UCONN football.

'Saw
17.1942Southern Schools in something Yankee?FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Wed Sep 11 1991 16:016
    Yankee Conference now only exists in football.  Consists of UMass,
    UConn, URI, UNH, Maine, Boston University, Delaware, Richmond and
    Villanova.  William and Mary, James Madison and Northeastern are being
    added in 1993.
    
    John
17.1943CTHQ1::LEARYWed Sep 11 1991 16:1511
    As posted elsewhere, Jeff Davis must be rolling in his grave.
    
    John,
    My new brother-in-law is a proud graduate of Zoo (er, that's history )
    UMASS and wants me to attend a hot Yankee conf. foosball match. Never
    having been to one, I'm vewy interested. With your knowldege of UMASS
    gridiron events, which game, (home or away as long as it's in NE) 
    wouldst you recommend?  Danke
    
    MikeL
    
17.1944RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOBrowardCountyPimpService,erPoliceWed Sep 11 1991 17:0419
    Chris -
    
    No, it isn't a bad analogy.  You claim that it p'eed you off to have
    fans of this upstart conference puffing their chests because they were
    #1 - and the main reason you give is that conferences like the ACC have
    been around for ~75 years.   
    
    ANd in fack(tm) - Yankee fans said the same things to and about Mets
    fans after the 69 series - they used the same inane arguement "you
    haven't been around forever with our tradition - stop puffing your
    chests".
    
    
    Villanova fans have as much right to be proud about the one
    champeenship Rollie has brought home for them as Tarhell(tm) fans have
    the right to be proud about the one champeenship Dean has brought home
    for them.  Same for Georgetown and Duke fans.  
    
    JD
17.1945going UPANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYBig10: Conference Of All-TimeWed Sep 11 1991 17:077
    Yeah, and IU fans should be proudest of all, of Bob's 3 Titles, not
    to mention the other two...
    
    Bob > Snuffer, that's all there is to it.  Common sense.  Factuality.
    Reality.  Prima facie.  Right on.
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom
17.1946FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Wed Sep 11 1991 17:1520
    to Mike Leary:
    
    Here's the schedule for this year:
    
    9/7		Delaware	lost 7-24
    9/14	Holy Cross
    9/21	at Maine
    9/28	at Boston University (7 PM)
    10/5	at James Madison
    10/12	Rhode Island
    10/19	at Connecticut
    11/2	Northeastern at Foxboro
    11/9	Richmond
    11/16	at Villanova
    11/23	New Hampshire
    
    If you want to go to a road game, go to the Connecticut game.  The
    better home games are Holy Cross and New Hampshire.
    
    John
17.1947thanks,Ninj, mebbe i'll see ya at oneCTHQ1::LEARYWed Sep 11 1991 17:291
    
17.1948BSS::JCOTANCHMichigan *will* prevailWed Sep 11 1991 17:474
    Mike won't be at the Holy Cross game cuz he'll be too busy watchin' his
    Irish lose to Michigan on the tube.  :^)
    
    Joe
17.1949FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Wed Sep 11 1991 18:187
    For all home games, you can find me in section 5, row CC, seats 21-22,
    using my season tickets.  My seats are under the press box thus I'm
    protected from wind and rain.  I also plan to go to the games at UConn,
    BU and NU this year.  I won't be at the Holy Cross game on Saturday. 
    Family duties call and I'll be at my little brother's wedding.
    
    John
17.1950Felton to GA TechHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Sep 12 1991 15:1013
George Felton, former hoops coach of South Carolina, will join the staff
of Bobby Cremins at Ga Tech. The two are personal friends. Felton was
fired by South Carolina despite turning the program around, winning the
magic 20 games and qualifying for the NCAA tourney. In addition, they
provided an opportunity for Dean Smith and the No Carolina to not win, by
design. The Gamecocks beat the Tar Heels here in Charlotte at last year's
preseason tourney. Felton, many think, was fired because of a drinking
problem. He's received a couple of DWIs, including one after being fired.

Felton may become a graduate assistant. He's enrolled in grad school at
Ga Tech.

TTom
17.1951weekend football resultsHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Sep 16 1991 11:4843
georgia tech 30, BOSTON COLLEGE 16

Good game for the Jackets, good game for their fans, but a bad day if you
liked them by 16^, which is what the line moved to just prior to kickoff.
Consider this a tune up this week's game against the visitin 'Hoos.
 
DUKE 42, rutgers 22

Rutgers came out looking like the better team. Duke held on and in the 
second half they played like the last 5 minutes against So Carolina. 
Everything worked. Can the Devils be this good?

NO CAROLINA 51, cincinnati 16

As predicted the Tar Heels drubbed the hapless Bearcats. This was your
typical display of running up the score at home against a significantly
inferior opponent. 

syracuse 31, MARYLAND 17

A big punt return turned captured this otherwise close game for the 
Orange. Syracuse was the better team. Maryland came in overrated for 
beating Virginia who are proving to be weak.

VIRGINIA 17, navy 10

Just how bad are the 'Hoos? They won but it was Navy!. Not a good rebound 
from the Maryland loss. Not a good preparation for Ga Tech. 

WAKE FOREST 40, western carolina 24

Did not watch. Did not read about. The best thing I can say is that I got 
a couple of friends that went to Western Carolina and they have a good 
team name: The Catamounts.

NC STATE 47, kent used_to_be_state 0

This was strictly a matter of the Pack's D. Prior to the game, the 
pregame show on the Tar Heel station, Jefferson Pilot, actually said that 
"these two teams are about the same strength". Except for offense and 
defense, that was about right. Maybe he was talking about enrollment.

TTom
17.1952RDOVAX::BRAKEA Question of BalanceMon Sep 16 1991 12:277
    TTom
    
    re the 'Hoos - Blunden was out due to an infected elbow. UVa won with
    an unproven QB.
    
    Rich
    
17.1953Hoos lookin badHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Sep 16 1991 13:119
Rich,

That was well reported. But the 'Hoos should have been able to hand it
off to the running backs and dominate the game. As it was, they barely
recoverd from their blunders. These same mistakes contributed to their
loss at Maryland. If they continue at this level of play, with or without
Blunden, they'll get drubbed at Ga Tech.

TTom
17.1954Objective reporting lacking ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Sep 16 1991 14:4311
    Home come Carolina gets 'cused of 'running up the score' in a 51-16
    win (over a team that just got beat 81-zip by one of the classiest
    coaches in all of college athletics) whilst NC Skate doesn't share 
    in the characterization with a 47-zip 'W'?
    
    Inquiring minds and all that rot ...
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1955calls em as I sees emHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Sep 16 1991 14:485
Cause that's what happened. I can't remember how many defensive turnovers
State caused, but this was the dominant theme of the game. With the
Heels, it was clearly an offensive effort.

TTom
17.1956Agreed.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Sep 16 1991 14:536
    > calls em as I sees em
    
    Yup.  Unfortunately you're watching behind Wolfpack-Red glasses!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1957settle the scoreHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Sep 16 1991 15:179
Actually, I only watched the Coaches show. Read about both in the Tar
Heel news, which is locally known as the Charlotte Observer.

We shall see who's who in a couple of weeks when the Heels visit the
Pack. It won't be open to interpretation or interpretation of
interpretation. We can look at the score and tell the story. Early
prediction is for a low scoring event.

TTom
17.1958Concerned, although we'll dominate ya in hoops this year. :^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Sep 16 1991 16:239
    Carolina's upcoming game against the Pack is *huge*.  A win would
    almost guarantee a 4-0 start.  A loss and it's 3-1 with the cupcakes
    out of the way and Clemson/Tech starring us down the barrel.
    
    Here's hoping Mack has truly turned it around and we can come away with
    the 'W'.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1959I like UNC as challenger to Clemzin, Tech...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Sep 16 1991 16:356
    
    Carolina should stomp State, unless Mack's been hanging around Dean on
    the banquet circuit...
    
    glenn
    
17.1960Hoos back to earth; Sloan speaksSHALOT::HUNTRumblin', bumblin', stumblin' ...Tue Sep 17 1991 13:5547
17.1961Norm,Dean,Hoos,HuntHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelTue Sep 17 1991 14:3415
Norm and Dean have been battling for years. Dean turned State in on the
David Thompson recruiting violation. State got a year (which they had a
perfect record) for 1 too many visits to campus by Thompson. The visit
was Thompson staying the night in a college dorm with some of his
buddies.

Actually, part of the rivalry between State and No Carolina has always
been focused on the coaches. Everett Case and Frank McGuire had a fued
that makes Norm and Dean look like best of friends.

BTW, Bob, saying the Hoos are "lookin bad" hardly constitutes blasting
them. Putting their 7 point home victory in perspective, Ball State beat
Nave *AT* Navy, 33-10. That's lookin bad.

TTom
17.1962Sloan's got_a bigger axe to grind than even Ketch!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Sep 17 1991 18:5216
    Good move by Dean to turn in the crook Sloan.  Not only is he a
    convicted NCAA rules violator but now he's proving his class by
    cheap-shotting a HoFer.  Sad.  Reel sad.
    
    His thought that Carolina shoulda been winning Titles in the 60's *is*
    hilarious though.  Our talent level was not even on the same planet as
    UCLA, or even the ACC for that matter.  Dean struggled out of the gate 
    in the early 60's and at one point was burned in effigy upon returned 
    to Chapel Hill after a road 'L'.  Carolina did win three (3) consecutive 
    ACC Tournament Championships in the late 60's, but we were underdogs in all
    but one of 'em.  How Sloan could take this history and convert it into
    UNC underachieving in the 60's pretty much sums up his credibility,
    IMNSHO.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1963knee jerk 101HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelTue Sep 17 1991 18:590
17.1964RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Sep 17 1991 19:107
    > knee jerk 101
    
    So then you agree with Sloan that Dean shoulda won Titles over UCLA in
    the 60's?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1966seen it before, butHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelTue Sep 17 1991 19:3126
"knee jerk 101" is your reply. Somebody - anybody - says anything at all
about St. God Dean and it's instant defensive posture. And it's always a
personal attack on the author of the statement and almost never addresses
the basis of discussion, in this case, should Dean have won more (any)
titles during the 60s.

I'm didn't say anything about Sloan. All I say about Sloan, while he was
at State was that he was run out of town *AFTER* he won an NCAA title.
His problems at Florida speak for themselves.

>    So then you agree with Sloan that Dean shoulda won Titles over UCLA in
>    the 60's?

Dean shoulda won titles over a lot of people. My main memory of the 60s
had little to do with college basketball.  But my first reaction to
someone saying something I don't agree with isn't that the person is a
complete *ssh*le. The discussion has merit. I do find it interesting that
people from all walks of life bring up Dean's lack of titles. And I find
it significant that Tar Heels instantaneously go into the defensive,
about injuries and bad breaks and this shoulda happened and this
shouldnta happened, somebody is a something bad, etc., ad nauseum.

And since you're willing to speculate about Dean, why is it do you think
that he likes Valvano and hates Sloan?

TTom
17.1967CAM::WAYPlayin in the UNIX playgroundTue Sep 17 1991 19:3413
TTom,

One small nit.  Knee Jerk 101 implies that ACC Chris is a knee jerk neophyte,
needing the introductory level 101 class.

I would put forth the premise that after years of knee jerking, Chris
has amassed a vertible cornucopia of knee jerk technique.

Therefore, I'd slightly amend your most excellent one line reply
buy calling it Knee Jerk 601, for surely ACC Chris would be participating
at the post-graduate level.....

'Saw
17.1968nit notedHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelTue Sep 17 1991 19:350
17.1969More like "See knee jerk. Jerk, knee, jerk."SHALOT::HUNTRumblin', bumblin', stumblin' ...Tue Sep 17 1991 19:4612
 After all these years, Soup may indeed be studying at the post-grad
 level but this latest kneejerk is right outta the Tar Heel textbook
 for kindergarteners.
 
 I didn't see any "rocket science" in that one, fellas.   Sloan
 restated the obvious about the Snuffer and he fired right back with
 the reverse character assassinations and the predictable denials
 about the Tar Heels' talent levels.
 
 Child's play.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1970Factual intellectual honesty is my game, amigos.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportTue Sep 17 1991 20:028
    Typical.  I post the basis for_a honest intellectual discussion ("Is it
    fair to say Dean shoulda won Titles in the 60's") and get 'cussed of
    being a knee-jerk kindergartner.
    
    Ba.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1971Need another kleenex for the specsSHALOT::HUNTRumblin', bumblin', stumblin' ...Tue Sep 17 1991 20:165
17.1972not on this matterHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelTue Sep 17 1991 20:1814
>             -< Factual intellectual honesty is my game, amigos. >-

COY. Crock of the Year.

Chris, you generally do engage in this on the general subject of college
hoops, so I know what it reads like when you write it. However, in the
interest of honest, intellectual or otherwise, your interest in the
matter comes much closer to religious belief than anything else.

And slurring Norm Sloan is hardly the basis of any discussion. I don't
think you'll find anyone taking his side. But lest it go unsaid, he has
managed to accomplish the Big Prize as often as Dean.

TTom
17.1973RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JODid Gail finish? We want to KNOW!Tue Sep 17 1991 20:186
    Chris -
    
    I'll twist the discussion around.  Do YOU think Dean should have more
    than ONE champeenship banner hanging from his rafters?
    
    JD
17.19741972 and 1975 UCLA titles coulda been UNCSHALOT::HUNTRumblin', bumblin', stumblin' ...Tue Sep 17 1991 20:4154
 Okay, let's get some intellectual honesty going here ...
 
 Sloan said that Snuff shoulda won some titles during Wooden's reign.  
 I find that claim arguable *IF* you restrict Wooden's reign to *just*
 the 1960's.   I don't believe any other college team in America could
 have beaten a Lew Alcindor UCLA squad from 1967 thru 1969.
 
 However, the Wizard of Westwood retired six seasons later in 1975
 with his 10th title.   Alcindor has just three of those ten rings on
 his fingers.   Let's consider the early 1970's Bruins squads instead.
 
 1970 title against Jacksonville and Artis Gilmore.  UCLA had Sidney
 Wicks and Curtis Rowe among others.   Not at all a powerhouse team.  
 Where was Snuff ???   Charlie Scott was still in Chapel Hill.
 
 1971 title against Villanova and Howard Porter.  Again, we're talking
 non-powerhouse UCLA here.   Steve Patterson, John Vallely, ...   
 Again, what about Snuff ???   George Karl, Lee Dedmon, and Dennis
 Wuycik (All-ACC) were all in baby blue that year.
 
 1972 title against Florida State.   Bill Walton's first of two.   The
 redhead was a sophomore this year and was not a lock for a title. 
 And didn't Snuff lose to the 'Noles in the Final Four that year ???  
 The spectacular Bob McAdoo, Dennis Wuycik and Bobby Jones were on
 this team along with George Karl.
 
 1973 against Memphis State.  Walton went 21-for-22 and was probably
 out of reach against anybody except for perhaps an undefeated
 but sidelined Wolfpack.
 
 1974 was the Wolfpack all the way.   Snuff was not up to snuff this
 year.   But this team saw the debuts of Mitch Kupchak, Tommy LaGarde,
 and Walter Davis so you can't say it wasn't talented.
 
 1975 was Wooden's 10th title and Carolina was loaded that year with
 the above three plus the sensational freshman Phil Ford.   They were
 ACC champs in a runaway and I don't recall what pothole they stepped
 in during the Big Dance but it was a waste of a great squad.
 
 So what do we have here ???    It's not hard to concede 1973 and 1974
 to UCLA and NC State.   UCLA 1970 and 1971, who knows, perhaps the
 baby blue talent wasn't there to take it all but I contend that
 Wooden didn't have an absolute glut on talent in those two years
 between Alcindor and Walton.
 
 But 1972 and 1975 were definite possibilities for the Snuffer.   The
 1972 team was upset in the Final Four and the 1975 team was one of
 Snuff's all-time best with 4 future NBA'ers on it.   I'll wrap it up
 by saying that 2 out of Wooden's 10 could and perhaps should very
 well have been in Chapel Hill instead.
 
 Now, of course, you'll tell me how dishonest I'm being.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.1976Not to jump into the foray, but...TNPUBS::MCCULLOUGHLindsey is a toddler now!Wed Sep 18 1991 12:467
The thing I remember about Wooden was that he got the absolute best out what he
had, and that his teams would peak at the right time.  Alcindor was dominant,
and we will never know, because of injuries about Walton, but Wooden won with 
Wicks and Rowe, and many other guys who played their best in college.  I was 
always impressed by this.

=Bob=
17.1977What college hoops reference book is on your desk, Ketch?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Sep 18 1991 13:2912
    What's to rebut, Hawk?  BobHunt made my point for me.  Namely, if Norm
    Sloan really did say Dean shoulda won Title(s) in the 60's, he's wrong,
    plain and simple.
    
    Now if we want to expand our intellectual discussion to the 70's I'll
    be glad to comply, but only if all you weasels first offer me a_apology
    and admit I was right.  (i.e. There was no knee-jerk reaction on my
    part, and I was right to call Sloan on his bogus statement, assuming he
    really said it.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1978Can't make it any clearer than thisSHALOT::HUNTRumblin', bumblin', stumblin' ...Wed Sep 18 1991 14:0783
17.1979STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishWed Sep 18 1991 14:108
    NC might have or might not have beaten UCLA in 67 or 69 but we'll never
    know because the mighty Snuffer choked both times losing to inferior
    Dayton and Purdue in the Semi's.
    
    In 72' Carolina took the gaspipe to an also inferior Florida State team
    and in 75' they lost in a huge upset to Syracuse in the 2nd round.
    
    Cap
17.1980STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishWed Sep 18 1991 14:1781
    Here you go fellow weasels, here is a history of the Snuffer's 
    performance in the NCAA's.
    
1. The most telling choke period in NC history came from 1978 - 1980.
   In that time, North Carolina:

	- Lost in the 1st round to San Francisco.  NC only had Mike O'Koren
	  Phil Ford, Dudley Bradley and Al Wood on this untalented team.

	- Lost in the 1st round as the #1 seed to the #9 seed Penn(first time 
	  in history that this had happened), in one of the biggest upsets in 
	  the history of the NCAA.  This team had the players mentioned above
	  plus a young Jimmy Black.  NC finished the season as the #3 ranked
	  team in the country.

	- Lost in the 1st round to Texas A&M in another big upset.

   There were 3 years, 3 high seedings for NC and 3 first round losses.

2. In the period of 1975 - 1976, NC also had two more patented underachieving
   tournies.  In those two years, North Carolina:

	- Lost in the 2nd round to Syracuse.  NC had Phil Ford, Mitch Kupchak
	  Tommy Lagarde and Walter Davis on that team.  Syracuse started
	  Hackett, Sease, Seibert, Lee and Williams.  Anyone remember those
	  players.

	- Lost in the first round to Alabama.  This team had Walter Davis,
	  Lagarde, Ford, Kupchak and Dudley Bradley on it.  Alabama had
	  a bunch of no-names.

3. In 1983-84 more surprising losses and underachievements occured.

	- In 1983, they lost to big underdog Georgia.  This is with
	  a team consisting of Daugherty, Doherty, Perkins and Jordan.

	- In 1984, they lost to unranked Indiana when they were the #1 ranked 
	  team in the country.  Here are the line-ups for that game:

		North Carolina		Indiana

		Sam Perkins		Mike Giomi
		Matt Doherty		Marty Simmons
		Brad Daugherty		Uwe Blab
		Michael Jordan		Dan Dakich
		Kenny Smith		Steve Alford
		Dave Popson		Stew Robinson
		Joe Wolf		Steve Eyel
		
4. In their 7 final four or finals losses they have been heavily favored in 3 
   games and favored in another 3 games.

	- In 1967 they were heavily favored as the #1 seed to beat unranked
	  Dayton(the lowest seeded team in the tourney) but lost in the final
	  four.

	- In 1969 they were slight favorites over Purdue but lost by 27 points
	  in the final four and than lost the 3rd place game by 20 points to
	  DRAKE!

	- In 1972 they were HEAVILY favored to defeat #5 seed Florida State
	  but lost in the final four.

	- In 1977 they were favored to beat Marquette but lost in the finals,
	  despite having four players that had played on the previous year's
	  Gold medal team.  Dean was terribly outcoached in this game and
	  he played 14 players in this game substituting frantically(sound
	  familiar?????) :-)

	- In 1981 they were favored to defeat Indiana, but Knight triumphed
	  over Smith again.

	- In 1991 they lost to a less talented Kansas team as Dean left the
	  game in an ebarrassing display of poor sportsmanship(getting tossed).

5. We could also talk about the 7 year period at the start of his career where
   he failed to make the tourney or the 5 year period in the 70's where he
   made the tourney only once.

    
17.1981RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGail and Leadville,A Miniseries!Wed Sep 18 1991 14:184
    And lets not forget that it took Snuffer several season *AFTER* the
    Wooden era to finally win his lone title.
    
    JD
17.1982;-)RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGail and Leadville,A Miniseries!Wed Sep 18 1991 14:2310
    re .1980
    
    Wow - that 84 Carolina team had what, 5 first round picks on it
    (Perkins, Daugherty, Wolf, Jordan, Smith)
    
    I know Popsen was in the NBA - what about Doherty??
    
    TO be fair, Uwe Blab and ALford were first rounders, weren't they?
    
    JD
17.1983Good work BobHPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Wed Sep 18 1991 14:233
    ACCaught again! He's like onea those plastic dolls that you keep
    knocking down and it just springs back up so you cain paste it again.
                                 Denny
17.1984Trivial error on my part doesn't alter the basic thesis.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Sep 18 1991 14:4714
    Funny how in all the years mentioned in the now-understood Sloan time
    period North Carolina was *never* favored to win the NCAA Tournament.
    NEVER.  
    
    I'll admit to misunderstanding the time frame Sloan was talking about. 
    (I coulda sworn I saw 60's in the base note, but obviously I'm wrong.)
    I will *NOT* admit that Dean shoulda been expected to win Title(s)
    during that time period.  (If you can show me_a AP/UPI poll that had
    us ranked #1 in the country heading into the tourney anytime during
    the Wooden years and hence the favorite, I'll be glad to concede the 
    point and offer a glowing apology.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.19851979 and 1980 were vintage Snuff ChokesSHALOT::HUNTRumblin', bumblin', stumblin' ...Wed Sep 18 1991 15:0132
 I remember the 1979 Penn loss and the 1980 Texas A&M loss very well.  

 In 1979, it was still only two teams from each conference in the
 NCAA's.   Duke and Carolina were the two teams from the ACC and they
 both lost their first games in huge upsets in a doubleheader on the
 same day on the same quasi-home court in Greensboro, North Carolina.  
 Carolina lost to Penn and then Duke lost to St. John's.   In the ACC,
 that brutal day is known as "Black Friday" and Snuff was there.

 The 1980 loss to the Aggies was beautiful.  On paper, it looks like a
 rout as Texas A&M won by like 20 points or more.    But it was a
 *DOUBLE* overtime game, I believe.   The Aggies scored a whopping
 *25* points in the final OT period.    Twenty-five points in 5
 minutes works out to a 200 point game in a regulation 40 minutes !!!  

 Even Westhead's Loyola Marymount teams never hit the 200 mark but for
 5 minutes there, the Texas A&M Aggies, one of the ultimate football
 schools, was scoring at will against one of the ultimate basketball
 schools in the country.   And Snuff was there.

 It was hilarious watching the Heels fold up like a cheap suit against
 the Aggies.   I can only remember one good player on that team ... a
 guy named Rudy Woods who never did anything in the NBA.   Carolina
 had Mike O'Koren, Al Wood, Jimmy Black, and a freshman named James
 Worthy.

 But, of course, somehow in some way, this recollection of factual
 results is somehow dishonest and instead is the result purely of my
 carrying the largest chip on anyone's shoulder in this entire danged
 conference.   I'm so ashamed.   Not.

 Bob Hunt
17.1986Let's hope the streak reaches 12 this year ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Sep 18 1991 15:135
    I remember the Texas A&M game too.  It was the last time Dean Smith has
    failed to reach the Sweet 16, which, BTW, is an NCAA record.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.1987Got fleas in your Soup ???SHALOT::HUNTRumblin', bumblin', stumblin' ...Wed Sep 18 1991 15:2148
17.1988Let it continue!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewWed Sep 18 1991 15:538
    Strut that chest, Crockmeister.  You have SO much to be proud of!
    
    "Let's just hope the streak (skein?!) a Excellent Losses continues."
    
    Let us all hope that Snuffer's skein/streak continues.  ACCrook'll
    be satisfied; and so will we.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.1989A favorite in '75 - Naah!DYPSS1::ROPERBillyMartin,WoodyHayes,BobKnightWed Sep 18 1991 16:0220
    Trivia Question:  Does anyone remember who put the defensive clamp on
    M. Jordan in the '84 IU game?
    
    As far as '75 goes, NC was not, and should not have been the favorite
    to win it all.  Aside from UCLA, their were two other extremely
    talented teams.
    
    	1. Kentucky - Led by All-American Kevin Grevey, and an outstanding
           freshman class (Jack Givens, Rick Robey, Mike Phillips, James
           Lee)
    
    	2. IU - Mr. Humble himself stated that this was the most talented
           Hoosier team ever assembled.  Quinn Buckner, Kent Benson, Scott
           May, Steve Green, etc.  Recall they were undefeated heading into
           the Mid-East Regional Final @ UD Arena Vs. UK.  BTW, IMHO, that
           was the most physical/exciting college b-ball game ever played
           one by UK 91-90.  Results of that game could've been different
           had Scott May played w/o a cast (ie been healthy).
    
    Wildcat
17.1990CAM::WAYForeverWare: Lasts a lifetimeWed Sep 18 1991 16:1415
So the Snuffmeister made the Sweet 16 for twelve times in a row.

That's akin to me walking around here with with a train wreck in my
pants about how the Red Sox have taken the AL East 3 out of the last
five years or something like that.  They still haven't won a series.

The Snuffmeister makes it to the Sweet 16 and every time but one he's
taken the Gaspipe.

If this guy is so great, if he's so ready to be canonized, if he is,
as all you BABY BLUE (in the face from choking) Faithful insist, only 
the second man in the history of time to walk on water, WHY does
he choke in the biggest games that mean the most??????

Just curious.....
17.1991We've heard the Injury Excuse *many* times, dudeSHALOT::HUNTRumblin', bumblin', stumblin' ...Wed Sep 18 1991 16:2150
17.1992ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewWed Sep 18 1991 16:3110
    >WHY does he choke in the biggest games that mean the most??????
    
    Easy: Cuz Snuff-o-holic is too classy to sacrifice his boys'
    development as NBA prospects, students, and human beans for "mere
    end-of-season peaks."
    
    Got it?
    
    Big10 Tom
    
17.1993STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishWed Sep 18 1991 16:3322
>    <<< Note 17.1991 by SHALOT::HUNT "Rumblin', bumblin', stumblin' ..." >>>
>             -< We've heard the Injury Excuse *many* times, dude >-
    
> The intellectually honest thing to do is point out that the truly
> great teams overcome the loss of any one particular player and win
> the thing anyway.   Especially if the injured team was *still*
> favored to win going away like UNC in '84.   Indiana did not do this
> in '75 and neither did Carolina at any other time.
    
    That's true Bob, Knight made a mistake by starting May in this game
    and interrupting the flow that the team had acheived without him.
    Knighted learned from his mistake and never made that one again as
    seen by his title victories in 81 and 87 when two stars were injured
    (kitchel and Calloway).
    
    Knight made a mistake coaching and paid for it against Kentucky and
    in 84' he totally underestimated Virginia or we might have seen one
    of Knight's greatest coaching jobs.  Holland did a fine job that year,
    taking a weak Virginia team to within 2 pts of a title game(they lost
    to a loaded Houstan Couger team, 48 - 47).
    
    Cap
17.1994Probably didn't have a prayer against Georgetown, thoughSHALOT::HUNTRumblin', bumblin', stumblin' ...Wed Sep 18 1991 17:0424
17.2000I got reply #2000!!!VAXWRK::NEEDLEMoney talks. Mine says &quot;Good-Bye!&quot;Wed Sep 18 1991 17:080
17.2001HPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Wed Sep 18 1991 17:112
       Wastin' disk space again, eh Jeff!!1
                                        Denny  ;^)
17.2002DYPSS1::ROPERBillyMartin,WoodyHayes,BobKnightWed Sep 18 1991 17:3122
    re 17.1991
    
    Dakich will be able to point to that game as his crowning moment in
    sport.  Dan was nothing but a role player his entire career at IU, but
    for that one moment in time, he stopped the great one.  Hmmm, wonder if
    it had anything to do with the Deanster not making necessary
    adjustments?
    
    >>> You see, if we let the Hoosiers off the '75 hook for May's broken
    >>> arm, then we have to let the Heels off the hook...
    
    I agree 100 percent!  Guess my mentioning May was a defensive reaction
    to the abuse I've taken from IU fans over the years concerning that
    game.  And the argument against using the injury as an excuse is that it
    happened early on, and the team continued to win, hardly skipping a
    beat.
    
    I just remember being so pumped for that game because IU had beaten UK
    by a whopping 24 points earlier that year (98-74 if memory serves
    correctly).  Still, one of the most physical games I've ever watched.
    
    Wildcat
17.2003ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewWed Sep 18 1991 17:3721
    >The intellectually honest thing to do is point out that the truly
    >great teams overcome the loss of any one particular player and win
    >the thing anyway.  Especially if theinjured team was *still*
    >favored to win going away like UNC in '84.  Indiana did not do this
    >in '75 and neither did Carolina at any other time.
    
    This is quite accurate.  While it IS true that the Injury Excuse can
    hold water withint the context of a pacific game or tournament, this is
    beside the point in this debate.  When you're taking a sample over, say,
    20 years or 33 years these things even out to the point of pure unmitigated
    meaninglessness. 
    
    Bob overcame a key injury the following year (Wilkerson) and copped his
    first Title.  He did so again in 81 (Kitchel).  And again in 87 (Calloway).
    
    The Injury Excuse is like the relative talent piece of this debate: When
    you've rolled up 3 Titles these things are not excuses cuz there is nothing
    to excuse; when you've done 1 in well over three decades there is.
    
    Big10 Tom
    
17.2004Deja Vu, All Over AgainWMOIS::REEVE_CFri Sep 20 1991 03:2129
Dear Mr. Hunt--

Condolences.

Chris           <<< Note 17.2003 by ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSY "Carolina Blew" >>>

    >The intellectually honest thing to do is point out that the truly
    >great teams overcome the loss of any one particular player and win
    >the thing anyway.  Especially if theinjured team was *still*
    >favored to win going away like UNC in '84.  Indiana did not do this
    >in '75 and neither did Carolina at any other time.
    
    This is quite accurate.  While it IS true that the Injury Excuse can
    hold water withint the context of a pacific game or tournament, this is
    beside the point in this debate.  When you're taking a sample over, say,
    20 years or 33 years these things even out to the point of pure unmitigated
    meaninglessness. 
    
    Bob overcame a key injury the following year (Wilkerson) and copped his
    first Title.  He did so again in 81 (Kitchel).  And again in 87 (Calloway).
    
    The Injury Excuse is like the relative talent piece of this debate: When
    you've rolled up 3 Titles these things are not excuses cuz there is nothing
    to excuse; when you've done 1 in well over three decades there is.
    
    Big10 Tom
    

17.2005Loose ends cleared up; now back to 155.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Sep 23 1991 21:5529
re: BobHunt

> 1972 and 1975.  Could the Tar Heels possibly have won the NCAA
> tournament that John Wooden won instead ???   Simple and direct.

POSSIBLY won the tourney?  Sure.  Dean *possibly* coulda pulled an 
NC State-style upset, but his failure to do so against heavy odds can 
hardly be considered significant.


re: JD

>    And, I asked a question over in 17 that you haven't answered.  
>    
>    "Do you think Dean Smith should have lead UNC to more than one Hoops
>    NCAA champeenship in the last 31 years?"
    
It would've been nice to win more than one (1) primarily cause it woulda
silenced you weasels.  In terms of an indictment against a HoF/GoldMedal/
700+ W's/8 Final 4's/12_straight Sweet 16's/boo-koo ACC Championships/
even_more_boo_koo ACC regular season Titles/Virgin NCAA Violations Record/
Phenomenal academic results/25 Wins p/ year on average ...

Well, let's just say you very rarely ever see Carolina fans sitting
around belly-achin' about our last 30 years of hoops!


- ACC Chris
    
17.2006made for each otherHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Sep 23 1991 23:027
The best thing about the Dean Smith era No Carolina Tar Heels basketball
is that they've only won 1 and that required the timely pass from Fred
Brown.

The second best thing is that their fans think that this is great!

TTom
17.2007They don't come any easier than thatSHALOT::HUNTRumblin', bumblin', stumblin' ...Tue Sep 24 1991 02:2718
17.2008I-JordanHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelTue Sep 24 1991 10:3210
They named a section of Interstate 40 after Michael Jordan. They had a
big ceremony with all sorts of dignitaries. Dean was there and spoke of
Michael: "This is the happiest moment for me and Mike since Freddy Brown
passed us that champeenship. I still don't think Mike shoulda took that
shot, though."

Michael broke down during the festivities but recovered in time to
distribute "I wannabe like Mike" pins and bumper stickers.

TTom
17.2009Lonesome HighwaySHALOT::MEDVIDI'll find myself as I go homeTue Sep 24 1991 11:0310
    I was on that section of I-40 this spring.  It is the most boring,
    desolate piece of interstate I've ever been on...and having been on a
    midwestern college's swim team I'm pretty much an official on these
    matters.

    But I guess that all makes sense.  The officials had to find a North
    Carolina highway that was as boring as the four corners and as desolate
    as the UNC NCAA championship trophy case.

    	--dan'l
17.2010CAM::WAYGot no 'shine for my shakin'Tue Sep 24 1991 11:103
Cold, Dan'l, cold.

But exquisite.....
17.2011HPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Tue Sep 24 1991 11:338
    re: Michael Jordan hype.
       Sad to say but we aint seen nothin' yet. It's almost a full year til
    the Olympics. The hype and endorsements will be mind-boggling. He'll be
    worse than Bill Cosby, we'll see him EVERYWHERE!!
       Now don't get me wrong, Mike's a GREAT athlete and probably a
    wonderful human bean, but this is getting ridiculous! I mean a TV
    special! That's almost as bad as having an arena named after yourself.
                                           Denny
17.2012Michael Jackson Jordan?HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelTue Sep 24 1991 11:385
>    worse than Bill Cosby, we'll see him EVERYWHERE!!

Yes, Denny, but will he be as popular as the New Kids on the Block?

TTom
17.2013Jordan should learn to sing :-)MR1PST::CBULLS::MBROOKSTue Sep 24 1991 11:5616
    You Beat me to the Pun, I dont care how many commercials he does
    or how many endorsments he signs.  If 5 semi talented kids from
    massachusetts, I say semi talanted becasue maybe they have some
    talant Ive only heard them sing.... But they just passed cosby for
    most $$$$$.  I say pay jordan a billion compared to them.  He at
    least has talant.
    
    On another note, here's something alont the STUPID LAWS catagory.
    Florida passed a law against bumper stickers with vulger or lewd
    statements.  A man was sentanced to 1 YEAR IN JAIL for haveing a
    bumber sticker on his car that said NEW KIDS SUCK.  This has to be
    the most ridiculous thing Ive  ever heard of.  SO much for you rights
    in florida you dont have any.....
    							By the way I
    							agree with the
    							Bumper Sticker
17.2014Still 1-for-31, thoughSHALOT::HUNTDon't forget the coffee !!!Mon Sep 30 1991 16:0619
 You know, there really is no end to Snuff's greatness.  Chalk up
 another record for The Mighty Dean.   In addition to 11 striaght
 Sweet 16's, a dozen or so ACC titles, 10 out of whatever big men in
 the NBA, and so and so on ... we now have the new collegiate record
 for ...
 
       Most Former Players Guest Hosting "Saturday Night Live"
 
 Yeah, let's hear for ol' Snuff ... Obviously, Air Jordan couldn't
 have made it this far is in his blessed life without that good ol'
 fashioned "tough love" the Deanster hands out.   Well done, Dean. 
 Mike looked relaxed, polished and confident out there on stage.   You
 sure so know how to raise 'em.
 
 "Michael Jordan's Feminine Secret" was priceless.   Sweetriver Baines
 as "The First Black Harlem Globetrotter" was weak.    Jesse Jackson
 reading "Green Eggs And Ham" was beautiful.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2016CAM::WAYRIP Dr. SeussMon Sep 30 1991 16:1730
> "Michael Jordan's Feminine Secret" was priceless.   Sweetriver Baines
> as "The First Black Harlem Globetrotter" was weak.    Jesse Jackson
> reading "Green Eggs And Ham" was beautiful.

Wayne's World was just what I needed after a long summer.

I had tears in my eyes on Schmidt's Gay.

Da Beers was too funny (Bill Swerski's Super Fans, from Ditka's Restaurant).

I thought Tales from the Barbeque was, well, different....

Jesse Jackson stole the show.

Material on Weekend Update was good, but Kevin Nealon's delivery needs
a little work.  Of course, he has a very tough act to follow...


The Dark Side was a little long.


The only thing I liked about Sweetriver Baines was the name, and Michael
with that hairpiece....8^)


DA...beers...


'Saw

17.2017Haven't seen it yet, but I got it on tape!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Sep 30 1991 16:5111
    I dunno Bob, I think yer stretching things a bit.  True, Dean deserves
    mega-credit where Mike's polished fundamentals in hoops are concerned,
    but for his *acting* too? 
    
    Naw.  I'd problee chalk that up to UNC's required liberal arts
    curriculum.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2018BSS::JCOTANCHMon Sep 30 1991 17:303
    That Schmidt's Gay had me rollin' too 'Saw.  That was one of the funniest
    commercials I've seen SNL do in a while.
                                                          
17.2019NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Sep 30 1991 17:5717
                          
    > That Schmidt's Gay had me rollin' too 'Saw.  That was one of the funniest
    > commercials I've seen SNL do in a while.
    
    That and Wayne were about it for me.  Pretty weak other than that,
    'cept for maybe the part about Michael and Ditka (pronounced Dicka)
    taking on the world in Olympic hoops.  I think it might have something 
    to do with using athletes as guest hosts.  Joe Montana was similarly
    nervous and rigid in his delivery, as I recall...
    
    I wouldn't give that ex-player SNL host record to the Deanster just yet, 
    though.  He needs at least one other.  Didn't John Wooden's ex-Lew 
    Alcindor host the show (I know Bill Russell did)?  Wouldn't be the first 
    time the Great Wooden out-firsted ol' Snuffy... ;-)
    
    glenn
    
17.2020Prolific scorere deluxe who wants to learn from The MasterRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Sep 30 1991 18:159
    Carolina's next_best shot at having a SNL host might be this kid
    Livingston from New Orleans.  True, he's only a HS junior, but the word
    is:
    
    1. He loves UNC
    2. He's the best HS prospect since you_know_who
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2021More reason to under achieve!HPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Tue Oct 01 1991 10:206
>    2. He's the best HS prospect since you_know_who
    
      Eric Montross maybe? Livingston also must look forward to leaving
    College with a very 'empty' feeling ala Rick Faux.
                                          Denny
    
17.2022Nothin' could be finer than recruitin' in CarolinaSHALOT::HUNTTed, that's the prom queen !!!Tue Oct 01 1991 14:159
 Further proof that the only true joy to be found in Chapel Hell is
 during basketball recruiting season.
 
 So and so loves us and he's the best since who-sha-ma-call-it.   It's
 the only nectar that ever tastes sweet.
 
 March is such a cruel month in Deanland, isn't it ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2023RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOA Walk in the SunTue Oct 01 1991 14:2412
    Bob -
    
    'tis the troof.
    
    I guess the TarHell(TM) way of saying: "April Showers bring May Flowers'
    
    
     is:
    
    "Fall Recruiting Brings Spring Choking"
    
    JD
17.2024CAM::WAYThank you, Thank you, Sam I amTue Oct 01 1991 14:557
What they are really hoping is that one of the fine, young specimens,
lean, taut bodies glistening with a sheen of perspiration, will
break free of the System in the Big One, and play like a house-a-fire,
thus bringing a Champeenship home to Chapel Heel....


'Saw
17.2025not a good ideaHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelTue Oct 01 1991 18:5719
What you propose, Saw, would cause major conflicts amongst the Tar Heels.

First of all, if someone were to bring a champeenship home to Chapel
Hill, he would have to be outside of the System. The system, it should be
remebered, is designed to have this happen (refer to notes on end of
season peak). And the only way it could happen is if the individual
showed no inclination to this type of behavior prior to the final game.
If anything like this would happen during the regular season, he'd be
benched for breaking free of the system.

Then, Dean would have to be ejected from the game again. Else he would
put a stop to anyone trying to show individual over team effort.
Remember, the team isn't trying to peak (i.e., win).

But then, if this did happen, what would the faithful do about Dean? No
it would never happen. It would destroy the basis of all Tar Heel
beliefs.

TTom
17.2026CAM::WAYThank you, Thank you, Sam I amTue Oct 01 1991 19:569
Yeah, TTom, you're right.

Trying to make something like that happen would be like trying to
convince the Prosecution at the Scopes Trial that evolution is correct.

I see what you mean....


'Saw
17.2027and then againHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelTue Oct 01 1991 20:258
Somewhere in SPORTS, our leading Tar Heel proponent has given us his
considered opinion of evolution. 

I think that convincing a hardcore Creationist of evolution might be more
likely than your original scenario of a heroic individual effort to
snatch victory from the jaws of the System.

TTom
17.2028CAM::WAYThank you, Thank you, Sam I amTue Oct 01 1991 22:3010
TTom,

As Hawk always says:  "I wanna party with you"

I've never so looked forward to the college hoops season as I have
since I've been a SPORTS noter.  Just seeing if Snuffy will choke
in a new and interesting fashion makes the season for me.....8^)

later,
'Saw
17.2029Men from monkeys and Dean choking are thoroughly unprovenRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Oct 02 1991 16:0913
    Only flaw in your logic TTom (which is big_enough to drive a
    tractor-trailer thru) is that Dean has already won an Olympic Gold, an
    NIT Title (when it meant something), and an NCAA Title, ... *all* with
    his System FIRMLY in place.  In all cases we had players playing within
    The System.
    
    The biggest Carolina game I've ever witnessed where a player stepped 
    *out* of The System was the 1981 NCAA semifinals, when Al Wood absolutely
    scorched Virginia to put us in the Finals.  I think he had 36 points in
    that one.  BobHunt still ain't gotten over it ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2030Stop the presses ... Soup gets one right !!!SHALOT::HUNTTed, that's the prom queen !!!Wed Oct 02 1991 16:557
17.2031the system taketh and the system giveth awayHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Oct 02 1991 17:4418
re: .2029

>    ... Dean has already won an Olympic Gold, an
>    NIT Title (when it meant something), and an NCAA Title, ... *all* with
>    his System FIRMLY in place.  In all cases we had players playing within
>    The System.

And Dean, with that same system in place has already lost the NCAA title
30 (or is it 31) times. In all these cases No Carolina had players
playing within the system, so much so that they actually lost "by
design".

>         -< Men from monkeys and Dean choking are thoroughly unproven >-

The theory of evolution does not require the "men from monkeys". I'm not
so sure about that part anyway. The Dean choking is historical fact.

TTom
17.2032Of Dean and Evolution ...RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Oct 02 1991 18:2925
    > The theory of evolution does not require the "men from monkeys". I'm not
    > so sure about that part anyway. 
    
    Hmm, interesting.  Could an evolutionist please explain where 
    intelligent Man came from then?  Did he evolve from a monkey, 
    a Primeval Man, or simply a rugby prop?  (According to my handy-dandy
    MILLER HIGH LIFE Rugby Laws So Players Cain Understand manual, props
    are "the hairy ones you see getting up last from a collapsed scrum yet
    first into the club bar.  They happily grunt away the afternoon in the
    darkness of the scrummage, hoping to provide ball for the backs, all of
    whom they consider to be fairiest anyway".  Maybe there's somethin' to
    this evolution after all!)
    
    > The Dean choking is historical fact.
    
    No, it's not.  Too bad MorT never got around to posting The Final 4,
    cause then I coulda presented my full case for a jury to decide.  Purty
    sure you're a member of that body too, which means this statement
    of yours obviously disqualifies you from participating.  Now, if you
    could rephrase it to "I think Dean might be a choker, but I'm waiting
    for all the information to come in before I decide", I'm still willing
    to allow your participation.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2033Dean's System almost choked in 76', Did choke in 77STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishWed Oct 02 1991 18:323
    Let's also not forget that Dean with by far the most talented team in
    the Olympic Tourney almost lost to Puerto Rico in what would have been
    considered the biggest upset in the history of basketball.
17.2034EARRTH::BROOKSKickin this note into the effect mode...Wed Oct 02 1991 18:397
    Acc Cyst,
    
    Evolution has NEVER said that men come from monkeys, but that both have
    a coommon ancestor, and that the road diverged millions of years ago.
    
    Of course, thiking like that is a reason for the Excellent Losers of
    the world ....
17.2035Tar Heel Mantra: 'Dean don't choke'HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Oct 02 1991 18:4126
At first I thought that this new angle was, first off, tongue in cheek
and secondly, hardly to be considered at all, much less taken as truth.

But, upon thinking about it, I think there is something to this, at least
within Chris's reply.

See he's taken evolution and reduced it to "Men from Monkeys". His
reasoning appears to be from there you assert that you can't "prove" "men
from monkeys". Ergo, voila, evolution is bogus. Now this "logic", of
course, overlooks some minor details, the biggest one is that evolution
occurs on a daily basis. "Men from monkeys" may not occur but evolution
occurs. Examples are plentiful and include penicilin resistent bacteria
and most of the industry that we know of a genetic engineering.

Now apply a parallel to the Dean is great and does not choke position. In
a "Men from Monkeys" approach, it can't be proven that Dean chokes
because "Dean don't choke" is equated with "700 wins, gold medal, NIT,
one single NCAA championship" which we know happened and, voila, ergo,
"Dean don't choke". 

There represents a certain blissful approach to life. If confronted with
details, factual or otherwise, make up your mantra, say this is that and
anything can be defended or rejected. Package it around a zealous belief
system and you can even preach it.

TTom
17.2036More ... (tm)RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Oct 02 1991 19:0626
    > There represents a certain blissful approach to life.  If confronted 
    > with details, factual or otherwise, make up your mantra, say this is
    > that and anything can be defended or rejected. Package it around a zealous
    > belief system and you can even preach it.
    
    No, the truly "blissful approach to life" is to assume that all our
    splendidly educationed Ivy-league scientists are correct and that
    Man and Monkey are distantly related (Happy, Doc?) and there is no
    higher intelligence.  No need to even think at all, really.  Just
    accept it as fact and move on to something "important".  (As if there
    could be a more important question ...)
    
    Sorry, but I personally don't buy it, for a variety of reasons which
    I've already told you about.  Regardless of who's right, you can
    rest-assured that I don't treat the subject "blissfully".
    
    Where Dean is concerned, my difficulties lesson by leaps and bounds.
    The man is in the Hall.  He very well may become the all-time
    winningest coach in college basketball history.  His reputation is
    impeccable.  
    
    Yes, "blissful" may be the right word in describing my feelings toward 
    Deano!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2037ergoHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Oct 02 1991 19:149
Point made. Thanks for the assist, Chris.

"Can't prove no higher intelligence", therefore, no evolution.

"Winningest coach", therefore, doesn't choke.

Much better than I coulda made up.

TTom
17.2038Have your "bliss" and eat it, too ??? Not.SHALOT::HUNTTed, that's the prom queen !!!Wed Oct 02 1991 19:2222
 Well, ignorance is bliss so keep on smilin', Soup.
 
 Dean may be in the Hall, he may have 700 wins, he may have 11
 straight Sweet Sixteens, he may have a whole boatload of glittering
 accomplishments but ...
 
 He still has the 1-for-31 albatross around his neck.  And each of the
 upset losses are almost totally inexplicable.   He is the link in the
 chain.   If he had won one more title, at most just two more, you'd
 be basking in the blissful silence of a boring ACC note.    He didn't
 and you don't.
 
 Nobody's ever dinged him for losing NCAA games he wasn't supposed to
 win but he's got too many upsets losses to put out of mind ...
 
 Purdue, Florida State, Syracuse twice, Marquette, San Francisco,
 Penn, Texas A&M, Indiana twice, Georgia, Villanova, Michigan, and
 Kansas.   Too many, too many, too many ...
 
 You can ignore that fact all you want.   It never goes away.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2039Ah, what a turn...RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOFrom Here To EternityWed Oct 02 1991 19:5919
    Well, how this got on evolution/no-evolution is beyond me.
    
    Of course, if one debunks evolution, which one has the right to do, one
    can rely on another explanation.
    
    The one where magically, everything appeared, thanks to some super
    almighty being.  Of course, such beings' existance has never been
    proven either, right?  
    
    When you can't believe science, you can always believe magic.
    
    I don't really care which folks believe in.  I just always get a
    chuckle out of this stuff.  
    
    Both theories leave a whole bunch of unanswered questions.
    
    Then, one can always believe the theory put forth in "Repo Man" ;-)
    
    JD
17.2040no mo repoHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Oct 02 1991 20:214
Now, JD, don't be messin with my Repo Man. I got real tunnel vision when
it comes to talking about that kind of serious stuff.

TTom
17.2041Why dontcha open up the trunk?RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOFrom Here To EternityWed Oct 02 1991 20:3510
    TTom -
    Caint help it, it was on the other night.  Simply classic.
    
    "Plate o' Shrimp...."  heheheh
    
    So, where did all the people in the past come from?  The future.
    
    Love it.
    
    JD
17.2042Harry Dean is greatHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Oct 02 1991 20:383
I still keep my eyes open for the green tree car air fresheners.

TTom
17.2043Political pressure may force KingWeaselHunt to resignRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 03 1991 12:0310
    Strong negative words about Dean thare, Ketch, given the fact you
    yourself labeled him a "Great Coach".
    
    If I were you I'd remove myself from the debate, cause you're gonna
    here comments like this for a long, long, *long* time!
    
    Haw haw!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2044Baby Blue Bulemics Club ???SHALOT::HUNTTed, that's the prom queen !!!Thu Oct 03 1991 13:1027
17.2045Keep Livinston free and out of Chapel HillTNPUBS::NAZZAROLet the auction begin!Thu Oct 03 1991 13:2314
    I have purposely stayed out of this note for months, since I see
    no reason for continuing to beat a dead horse (hope you appreciate 
    that position, ACC_Chris!), but the mention of Randy Livingston
    a few notes back made me enter a response.
    
    Randy Livingston is a bigger and stronger version of Kenny Anderson.
    As a sophomre, he was already 6-3 and muscular.  But the things he
    can do with a basketball are exquisite to watch.  Putting him into
    the UNC 'system" would be akin to latching 100 pound shackles to his
    wrists.
    
    I can only pray this this never happens.
    
    NAZZ
17.2046He's in, Nazz, clear as a bellSHALOT::HUNTTed, that's the prom queen !!!Thu Oct 03 1991 13:3311
17.2047Shackled Jordan was Collegiate PoY his junior year ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 03 1991 13:4911
    Oh ahdup will ya Nazz.  The lasted thing we need is any kinda negative
    publicity leaking out about "shackles" and the like.  Might hurt our
    chances ...
    
    For the record though (in case you missed it) Livingston has already
    stated that he's been a UNC fan for years, and that there's nowhere
    better for him to go in preparation for the pros.  (Dean Knows
    Fundamentals.)  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2048RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOIn Harm's WayThu Oct 03 1991 13:587
    Yeah, Dean knows fundamentals - hey J.R. - do a pick n' roll for us,
    huh?
    
    Oh, and Air(head), show us the fundamentals of meeting the President
    and being a team player, willya?
    
    JD
17.2049the defense restsHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Oct 03 1991 14:048
More Tar Heel "logic":

>          -< Shackled Jordan was Collegiate PoY his junior year ... >-

Michael Jordan was Collegiate POY, therefore Dean did not "shackle" him.
See, he was just resting up for pros.

TTom
17.2050there IS a connectionANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYFrom Matt Sewell to Mike SewellThu Oct 03 1991 14:2215
    JD, what's hard to understand about how the Snuff debate tangentialized
    onto the evolutionist vs. creationist debate?  Think about it, recall
    Snuffy with that geeky distracted smile as he was congratulating his 
    Final Four opponents on their victory with the game still on the line
    with 35 seconds to go.  If *that* scene didn't reflect simian behavior
    I dunno what would.  The icing on the cake, of course, was when his 
    "clean classy program" (including a women beater and other sordid types)
    ended up assaulting a ref and rumbling with the Indianapolis Police in
    the runway.
    
    So, I indeed see the relevance of men-from-monkeys where Snuffmeister
    is concerned.  He is devo.  All this, of course, assumes he's a main,
    which he may or may not be.  To me he's kinda effeminate, sorta wussy.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.2051HPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Thu Oct 03 1991 14:244
       Jist think how great a college player Jordan could have been had not
    Suffer shackled him. He might have even had a title that wasn't
    'handed' to him.
                                   Denny
17.2052how low cain you goANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYFrom MattSewell to MikeSewellThu Oct 03 1991 17:3814
    It's really discouraging to sit here and watch poor Bob Hunt on one
    hand (correctly) deride Snuffy Smif' as a squanderer of talent and
    a big game choke artist, and then on the other hand confer Greatness
    upon him.
    
    Where have the nation's values gone?  Have we all sold out to the point
    where we cain't even enforce a certain base level a standards in our
    society?  Dogs sleeping with dogs, NWA rappers meeting with President
    Bush, Republicans shipping arms to the Ayatollah, and now... Bob Hunt
    conferring greatness on a squanderer choke artist.
    
    Sigh.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.2053Goad, goad, will Bob take the bait?CTHQ2::LEARYThu Oct 03 1991 17:531
    
17.2054My all-time record for short notesSHALOT::HUNTTed, that's the prom queen !!!Thu Oct 03 1991 17:595
17.2055your phraseology invites deflectionANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYFrom MattSewell to MikeSewellThu Oct 03 1991 18:5713
    >>will Bob take the bait?
    
    >No.
    
    Better to rephrase that "will Bob make a clean breast of it, will he
    admit the error of his ways and reposition himself as a straight 
    shooter with no closet skeletons that force him to call a_overrated
    geek Great anymore?
    
    Probably, no.  That would be to simple, too... *right*, now wouldn't
    it?
    
    MrT
17.2056on reflection, dephrase itHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Oct 03 1991 19:136
>    Better to rephrase that "will Bob make a clean breast of it, ...

Moderator! Don't we already have a topic for this that is already write
locked?

TTom
17.2057Dean great ??? Did I say that ??? Heavens no !!!SHALOT::HUNTTed, that's the prom queen !!!Thu Oct 03 1991 19:3435
17.2058Dean grates on your nerves?HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Oct 03 1991 19:390
17.2059"Dean is a Great Coach", - Bob HuntRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 03 1991 19:594
    Too late for that Ketch.  Way, way too late.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2060Still breathin'SHALOT::HUNTTed, that's the prom queen !!!Fri Oct 04 1991 04:0015
17.2061Hunt the 'teflon' noter. Won't standby his statements...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Oct 04 1991 11:237
    The context clearly indicated you thought Dean to be a Great Coach.  No
    dishonesty on my part.  To be fair, you're also of the *opinion* that
    he hasn't won enough Titles.  Fair 'nuf, but you CANNOT get away from
    the "Great" label.  Too late for that ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2062Boiled down to the very very short hairsSHALOT::HUNTTed, that's the prom queen !!!Fri Oct 04 1991 12:2912
17.2063CAM::WAYBill Swerski's Super Fans...Da BearsFri Oct 04 1991 12:3319
17.2064Shhhhh, let 'em do it by himselfSHALOT::HUNTTed, that's the prom queen !!!Fri Oct 04 1991 13:107
 Shhhh, quiet 'Saw.   Let the man think.   I want no distractions, no
 alternate ratholes, no diversions, no nothing.    Just let him settle
 it once and for all.
 
 Has Dean Smith won enough titles ???   Yes or no ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2065CAM::WAYBill Swerski's Super Fans...Da BearsFri Oct 04 1991 13:1415
> Shhhh, quiet 'Saw.   Let the man think.   I want no distractions, no
> alternate ratholes, no diversions, no nothing.    Just let him settle
> it once and for all.

Oh, this is so tough Bob.  It reminds me of when I was in school and
I *knew* the answer but the teacher wouldn't call on me.....

C'mon Crisp, yer holdin' up the class, and we want to get on to
better, more interesting things, like Bob Knight!

8^)

'Saw


17.2066You axed, you got.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Oct 04 1991 13:1744
    > Has Dean Smith won enough titles ???
    
    Complex question Ketch.  As a fan the obvious answer is 'No', cause
    almost by definition fans are a difficult lot to please.
    
    I was watching the Reds game the other night and the fans were booing
    Eric Davis unmercifully.  Got me thinking, here's a guy who very well
    may have won last years World Series for the Red Legs.  His Game 1
    2-run homer off Dave Stewart set the tone for Cincy.  They would not be
    intimidated by the swaggering A's.  He played well throughout, finally
    sustaining a very serious injury to his kidney in Game 4.  NOT EVEN ONE
    (1) YEAR LATER, HE'S GETTING BOOED!!!!  Not only that, but in listening
    to late-night talk shows from Cincinnati the whole danged city is
    up-in-arms about the Reds serious underachievement this year.  I don't
    question this, but one *might* think that winning the whole enchilada
    last year woulda quieted the masses for awhile ...
    
    Fans by nature are fickle.  They want Titles EVERY year, so it seems.
    You win one and they want another.  You win a 2nd, they want a 3rd.
    And on_and_on it goes.
    
    All of which brings me to my feelings toward Dean.  I follow Carolina
    basketball with a microscope.  Nobody knows our strengths/weaknesses
    better than me.  (If they do, I wanna party wif em!)  From
    top-to-bottom I don't believe there has been a better program in the
    USA over the last 30 years, and Dean Smith is the singular reason why.
    
    All of which brings us to the lack of Titles issue.  There is very
    much of a dichotomy at work here (IMHO).  Dean is a stubborn man.
    He has his System, and he's gonna use it for as long as he coaches.
    It's the reason for his outrageous consistent excellence, which even
    you recognized as 'Great'.  Trouble is in order to win more Titles
    The System would have to be relaxed.  Certain players would have to
    be allowed to take over games.  Playing time would have to be more
    restricted.  Do you go away from The System that has brought you
    so much success in the hope of winning a Title or two more?  If you
    do that, doesn't it effectively mean the end of The System?  
    
    In sum, the lack of Titles truly doesn't bother me in the least,
    because I understand the reason for it.  It has nothing to do with
    'choking'.  As TTom knows though, it has ALOT to do with The System.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2067Another way of looking at it 8^)CAM::WAYBill Swerski's Super Fans...Da BearsFri Oct 04 1991 13:2924
    Citizens by nature are fickle.  They want Money EVERY year, so it seems.
    They get one raise and they want another.  They get a 2nd, they want a 3rd.
    And on_and_on it goes.
    
    All of which brings me to my feelings toward Lenin.  I follow Communism
    with a microscope.  Nobody knows its strengths/weaknesses
    better than me.  (If they do, I wanna party wif em!)  From
    top-to-bottom I don't believe there has been a better system in the
    world over the last 70 years, and V.I Lenin is the singular reason why.
    
    All of which brings us to the lack of Money issue.  There is very
    much of a dichotomy at work here (IMHO).  Lenin was a stubborn man.
    He had his Communism and he'd want to use it for as long as we exist.
    It's the reason for our outrageous consistent excellence, which even
    you recognized as 'Great'.  Trouble is in order to get more Money
    Communism would have to be relaxed.  Certain people would have to
    be allowed to take over enterprises.  Earning power would have to be more
    restricted.  Do you go away from Communism that has brought you
    so much success in the hope of getting Money and more?  If you
    do that, doesn't it effectively mean the end of Communism?
    



17.2068ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYFrom MattSewell to MikeSewellFri Oct 04 1991 13:348
    >*** HE IS NOT GREAT *** He is far from great.  He is Un-great.  
    >If pond scum could be cleaned, he'd be the dirt on the pond scum.
    
    Merci beaucoup, mon ami.  Now that this terribly unfortunate faux
    pas has been swept into the pooper-scooper of history we cain get
    on with our mission.
    
    MrT
17.2069RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOVon Ryan's ExpressFri Oct 04 1991 13:3924
    Chris -
    
    First, thanks for the belly laugh in -1.
    
    Second - you must be hard up if Mr. Hunt's using Great and Dean in the
    same sentence has caused such rapture.
    
    Big deal.  He's called him 'Very Less than Great' about 2 zillion
    times.  Hardly a wash, now is it.  But then again, for one who thinks 1
    in 31 is a great percentage, I can see where you think Bob's Faux Pas
    (not the Fredd Brown Faux Pass, BTW) is so 'great'.
    
    Funny, how when excellence alludes folks enough (such as Dean's
    monumental squandering of talent in the NCAA), they start compensating
    by accepting less as more.  They become second class, willing to accept
    shoddier and shoddier quality, willing to accept imitation as the real
    thing, willing to theorize and make excuses for failures.   
    
    And we've seen it with Dean.  Appearances replace titles as measure of
    'greatness'.  And when appearances slow, then recruiting takes the
    place.  And then, as a last refufe, the baby blewer hides under the
    mountain of dastistics...
    
    JD
17.2070Lennin = SnufferSHALOT::MEDVIDTalk slowly; I'm hard of thinkingFri Oct 04 1991 13:414
    RE: .2067

    Absolutely brilliant, Dr. Way.

17.2071Unreal.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Oct 04 1991 13:4525
    It's obvious to me that the weasels have no time for an honest
    intellectual discussion.  I post a 'from_the_heart' note, emphasizing
    Dean strengths *and* weaknesses, and am greeted with:
    
    1. A comparison of Dean's System with [gasp!] communism.
    2. A statement by MorT that it's time to get on with the 'mission'.
    3. The usual JD note 'bout Dean not being great, so much talent,
       blah_blah_blah.  Considers my honest note to be good for nothing
       but a 'belly laugh'.
    
    Hey, fine.  I cain dish out the rhetoric with the best of 'em, so let's
    just get back to business as usual:
    
    DEAN IS GREAT.  HE'D HAVE WON MORE TITLES EXCEPT FOR INJURIES.  THERE'S
    NO BETTER COUNTRY IN THE USA.  YOU'RE ALL JEALOUS.  BOB KNIGHT IS A
    MANIAC WITH A LONG HISTORY OF PSYCHOTIC BEHAVIOR.  HE'S ALSO BADLY
    UNDERACHIEVED COUNTLESS TIMES IN THE TOURNEY.  DEAN HAS OVER 700 WINS. 
    DEAN IS IN THE HALL.  DEAN HAS AN OLYMPIC GOLD, AN NIT, AND NCAA TITLE. 
    DEAN IS GOD.  BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH
    ...
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2072Good start, Chris, now wrap it upSHALOT::HUNTTed, that's the prom queen !!!Fri Oct 04 1991 14:0094
17.2073Don't drop it just yet, ChrisSHALOT::HUNTTed, that's the prom queen !!!Fri Oct 04 1991 14:1321
17.2074TheFan;TheChair;TheCop;TheRussians;TheBook;ConnieChung;The900Number;TheTransfers;RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Oct 04 1991 14:319
    Sorry Bob, 'tis too late.  Your legions of weasels have logged in and
    registered that they're not interested in an honest debate.
    
    Fair 'nuf.  If you can convince them to drop the rhetoric, I'll be
    happy to respond to your confusion as to my position.  Until then, it's
    business_as_usual.  :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2075Sorry, I couldn't resist...CAM::WAYBill Swerski's Super Fans...Da BearsFri Oct 04 1991 14:4822



		Daily Affirmations

		     with

  		  Dean Smith


[Dean, looking in mirror]


I'm Okay.  I'm a nice guy.  I'm going out to coach tonight, and though
I may have doubts inside my head, and though I may feel insecure that
I'll choke when it's all on the line, I'll will do a good job.
Because I deserve to be here.  I'm a good person.

I'm smart, I'm witty, and doggone it, people *like* me.

Yes, I'm smart, I'm witty, and doggone it, Fred Brown *likes* me.
17.2076RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOVon Ryan's ExpressFri Oct 04 1991 15:1617
    Chris -
    
    You, of all people, complaing about 'intellectual dishonesty'.  YOu,
    the man who staged a rigged contest?
    
    You who has failed to answer simple questions for over 2 years now?
    
    Really, one question is:  Should Dean Smith have more than one
    champeenship ring on his finger - this is a yes/no answer - and you
    can use his fantastic recruiting (which you harp on constantly) and
    talent level to help answer this question.
    
    Now - how much more honest can you get.  My answer is yes - he should.
    He should have at least as many as one Bob Knight.  but he should have
    more than John Thompson or Jim Valvano, that's for sure.
    
    JD
17.2077So close yet so far awaySHALOT::HUNTTed, that's the prom queen !!!Fri Oct 04 1991 15:2417
17.2078Just rambling ...CSCOA1::ROLLINS_RFri Oct 04 1991 15:3215
	Suppose he says he is satisfied ?  Suppose he feels that there
	is more to be proud in with great balance than intermittent peaks ?
	I suppose anyone here could be greater at their professional careers
	by dedicating more time on their careers, and less on their families,
	recreation, etc., but we choose to live a somewhat balanced life.
	Why do we do that ?  Are we considered to be "chokers" because we
	have never flagged down IBM in the race for #1 ?  Are we satisfied
	with being "chokers," and if not, why do we spend valuable time (that
	could be used in our attempts to become #1) in ::SPORTS ?  And if we
	can be satisfied with our efforts, which consistently keep us in a
	lesser position, how can we criticize someone else who might prefer
	overall greatness in balance (from his point of view) as to the
	occassional lofty peaks that might be attained without this balance ?

	I suppose there should be some paragraph breaks above.
17.2079He's rummaging in trash cans now....ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYFrom MattSewell to MikeSewellFri Oct 04 1991 15:5466
    >TheFan
    
    A slobbering drunk harrasses and finally accosts Bob in a bar.  Bob
    places him haid first into a Rubbermaid wastebasket.  What's the prob?
    
    >The Chair
    
    Bob tosses a chair on court, it doesn't come close to harming anybody.
    We hear and see it thousands of times per year thereafter.  Meanwhile,
    no film of Thompson going for Pitino in Providence, nearly starting a
    riot; no film of Norm Stewart *starting* a riot at Nebraska by taking
    the mike after a win there and addressing the student section about
    what creeps the Husker players are and what a loser their coach is.  No
    film of a UW-GB coach striking a player several times either.  Nor any
    re-runs of Lefty Greasell directing his players to lie to the police
    investigating a drug death...
    
    As for Bob, what's the prob?
    
    >The Cop
    
    A cop tries to force Bob's team off the court while they still have a
    half hour of court time left (no doubt to impress the women).  They
    argue.  The cop pushes Bob in front of 40 witnesses.  Uh-oh, don't 
    assault Bob!  The KO was NOT technical, he was out cold, asleep, and
    deservedly so.  What's the prob?
    
    >The Russians
    
    After 3 TFs the USSR vs. Indiana game was forfeited by the haid ref
    and the Hoosiers were ordered from the court.  The media, the ever
    reliable media - excepting Dick Vitale and a few of the classier
    writers - publicizes that Bob pulled his team in a fit a pique.  The
    USA Basketball Chairman sends Bob a letter apologizing for the refs'
    failure to enforce domestic rules.  What's the prob?
    
    >The Book
    
    The book, which is probably the only bio ever published done on a 
    handshake where the subject does not contractually reserve last-look
    editing rights, makes John "corpulent pock-faced pushy sleazy-greasy
    fat slob" Feinstein a multimillionaire.  The nation is shocked to learn
    that IU players live under a reign of terror when in fack all that was
    revealed in the cleverly written melodramatic ficiton that the book is
    is that Bob yells and curses and fumes... something we all know no
    other coach does, right?  What's the prob?
    
    >ConnieChung
    
    Connie Dung baits Bob into a perfectly acceptable, but media unwise,
    paraphrase of Voltaire.  Normally star subjects are accomodated by
    having the faux pas edited out.  But not the feminist Ms. Dung, who's
    married to that famous journalist Maury Povich of A Current Affair
    fame, no, not when Bob is involved, cuz *he's* cast as a Villian where,
    say, Snuffy Smif', whose players choke women, take on white break
    sandwiches in hotel rooms, punch in women's faces, attack refs, and
    rumble with policement just after NCAA upset losses, is cast as the
    Good Guy.  You go figure, but, substantively, what's the prob?  I've
    been raped (by a gal mind you) and *I* for one took his advice and,
    frankly, I enjoyed myself immensely!
    
    >The 900Number
    
    Whooo!  You're scrounging, ACCrisp, big-time.
    
    Big10 Tom 
17.2080Perhaps this explains things. (Perhaps not.)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Oct 04 1991 15:5734
    Agreed Rich.  BobHunt talked about the players at Carolina, the
    implication being they, more than even the fans, want to win Title(s).
    
    No doubt this is true, and every year it's a goal (note that it's NOT
    the singular goal, there are others) the team establishes for itself. 
    But the interesting thing is to go back and listen to the players
    who've played for Coach Smith.  Only when you do that do you truly
    understand the Greatness of the man.  He's incredibly loyal, constantly
    sending notes and phoning his ex-players to see how they're doing.  He
    tries to find jobs for them.  If the President of the University is in
    his office and an ex or present player calls or stops by, Dean 
    interupts his meeting with the prez!  (This is a fact.)
    
    Bob pointed out the apparent flaw in my logic when I compared the fans
    (who only want Titles) with the fact that Dean has only won one (1).
    Well the answer is that I try to go beyond the average fan and
    appreciate Dean and the Carolina program for all it stands for.
    I can accept the lack of Titles with ease, because I understand
    that, believe it or not, there ARE more important things than National
    Championships.
    
    I don't think I'm capable of so much devotion to a program simply
    because it wins.  Sure it's nice, but my undying devotion for Carolina
    basketball, including following players careers both before and after
    their time at Chapel Hill, is a direct result of Dean Smith.  Heck, I
    didn't even ATTEND UNC - why should I be so loyal?!  It's because I
    truly believe Coach Smith to have his priorities in line, which makes
    him the rarest of breeds in SPORT.  If his greatest crime is that he
    hasn't won enough Titles, so be it.  I can live with this.  Coaches 
    who are capable of winning Titles are practially a dime-a-dozen.  
    Coaches like Dean Smith are very, very, very rare indeed.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2081Naw, you didn't disappoint in the least...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYFrom MattSewell to MikeSewellFri Oct 04 1991 16:028
    >I suppose there should be some paragraph breaks above.
    
    No, not at *all*, Rolly.
    
    That is the single most broken paragraph I've read in here in years!
    
    HTH,
    Big10 Tom
17.2082TTom don't know LeninHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Oct 04 1991 16:045
I'm thankful that Way's Lenin didn't complete the parallel and end with,
"As TTom knows..." I've got a picture of John Lennon in my cubicle but
that's about it.

TTom
17.2083The END, at long lastSHALOT::HUNTTed, that's the prom queen !!!Fri Oct 04 1991 16:3534
17.2084Time to establish another standard for "honesty"NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Oct 04 1991 16:4440
                         
    Chris, I'm interested in honest discussion.  Why do you continue with
    this intellectually dishonest crap about a paucity of titles being the
    logical result of the adoption of a system stressing fundamentals (in 
    any sport!)  That's ridiculous!  Go tell that to John Wooden and see
    what he has to say.  He had a system, too, a system that stressed the
    team over the individual, and a system that flagged down six titles
    even when he didn't have a Lew Alcindor or a Bill Walton at his
    disposal (and under which, when he did, he was smart enough to let the
    dominant player dominate-- with ABSOLUTELY NO CONFLICT OR COMPROMISE
    to the ideal of team play within a system of fundamental basketball!).
    
    Your reliance on The System as an explanation for a stunning overall 
    winning percentage but as an excuse come tourney time is 100% ex-post
    facto rationalization.  Simple probability theory tells you that the
    system that increases the percentages for winning any single game also 
    increases the chances for winning in any complete playoff or tournament 
    system, too.  "Intangibles" (in reality also nothing more than human 
    rationalizations used to explain away misunderstood incongruities, 
    after the fact) even out over the long haul, and for you to point to 
    them as an excuse for The System in NCAA tournament play is akin to a 
    belief in the unknown, in black magic.  For someone who worships the 
    well-defined structure of a system of basketball to its minutest
    component, that's a sin.  The System is as close to perfection as
    you'll ever see, but when it fails, you throw up your arms and blame 
    the gods!
    
    No, you're left with two choices, both discussed in great detail in
    here before: 1) Dean has suffered from plain old bad luck, from a
    continual occurrence of the "upset" that is always a possibility where
    sporting events are concerned (which in Dean's case, however, has
    already been shown to be statistically unlikely), or 2) Dean has 
    demonstrated coaching performance in the final stages of the NCAA 
    tournament *below* his normal standards.  Both theories can be 
    supported, but unfortunately neither is as palatable to those convinced 
    of Dean's coaching genius and its supposed (and bogus) trade-off 
    between consistency and "greatness".
    
    glenn
     
17.2085FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Fri Oct 04 1991 16:456
    A coach staying in touch with his players isn't necessarily a great
    coach for doing so, but it does make him a better person.  Too often,
    college coaches forget their players after the players have used up
    their eligiblity.
    
    John
17.2086ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYFrom MattSewell to MikeSewellFri Oct 04 1991 17:2145
    >You may now remove the word "OBJECTIVE" from your SPORTS resume.
    
    Haw haw haw haw !!  It is coups de grace such as these that make
    me love this file.  The big wheel keeps on turnin'... and leaves
    poor ACCrisp going into a fine fall weekend just so much rhetorical
    roadkill.  Ahhhh, think I'll lay back and light up a cig and enjoy
    the afterglow.
    
    re . 2084
    
    Whoa.  Don't mess with Waugamain, cuz if you rile this premier 
    analyst it's Tyson vs. Spinks time, with you having the eyes glazed
    over in fear backpedaling trying to crawl through the ropes before
    the jeering crowd, knees buckling, hoping to get down on the mat and
    through the ten-count asap.
    
    Waugamain, I'd dispute one point, though: The likelihood of underperforming
    normal success standards is higher during the single elimination NCAA
    hoops tourney cuz:
    
    1) The competition tends to be better, especially as one progresses through
       to, say, the Sweet Sixteen.
    
    2) The games are played on a neutral court before a more or less neutral
       crowd.
    
    3) The elements common to upsets (unconscious play, career team efforts,
       ability to play on emotion over talent level) are greatly heightened
       during these biggest of games under the conditions set forth in the
       two points above.
    
    4) Coaching becomes more of a factor because the games are played with
       little or no preparation time against unfamiliar teams with strange
       referees using officiating standards established in other leagues,
       not to mention the coach's critical role in overcoming the three
       playing conditions set forth inthe three points above.
    
    We're getting close now.  His flesh is well on its way to being softened
    up and marinated enough for a good old fashioned Bar-B-Q.  It will soon
    be time to put the Final Four in front a him so that he too cain choke,
    failing to come up with the right stuff for the Final Solution.  I cain't
    wait!
    
    Big10 Tom
    
17.2087CAM::WAYBill Swerski's Super Fans...Da BearsFri Oct 04 1991 17:2521
Chris --

That was a touching explanation.

Now I understand how you can be a Dean Smith disciple.

Like Job, who believed in God on shear faith after He covered him 
in sores and zits and herpe-like things, you too follow Rev Dean
based solely on faith.

That's cool.

But like the esteemed Mr Hunt says, "You can no longer wear the
OBJECTIVE label"....


Phew, what a day!

'Saw

PS  MrT, that reply of yours about Bob was superlative as usual.....
17.2088I've offered my explanations, no you offer yours.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Oct 04 1991 17:2620
    In reply to point 4, I'd say coaching becomes *less* important, cause
    coaches have basically no time to prepare to the opponent.  This is
    especially true of the 2nd game of each 'mini-tournament' within the
    NCAA's.
    
    In regards to Dean and NCAA performance glenn, I offer no apologies
    cause none are needed.  Dean's set records for most Tournament wins and
    most successive times in the Sweet 16.  The only area of contention is
    the fact that he hasn't been able to mount enough season-ending winning
    streaks that resulted in winning the final game.
    
    Let me turn the tables on you though.  Why do *you* think Dean hasn't
    won more Titles?  Do you honestly think that after 30 years in the
    business he somehow forgets how to coach in the tournament??  Do you
    perhaps think he's not that good a coach to begin with, and that all
    his wins are talent-based?  (In which case, why does the talent
    suddenly go south during the NCAA's?)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2089Great work Bob. Truly ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Oct 04 1991 17:284
    Boy, BobHunt proves I'm an emotional fan.  What a revelation!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2090~/~CST17::FARLEYThe Man with 1,000 ID'sFri Oct 04 1991 18:269
    Chris,
    
    	maybe 'cause the ACC is a very weak conference???
    
    
    ;^)
    
    Kev
    
17.2091exANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYFrom MattSewell to MikeSewellMon Oct 07 1991 13:4960
    >In reply to point 4, I'd say coaching becomes *less* important, cause
    >coaches have basically no time to prepare to the opponent.  This is
    >especially true of the 2nd game of each 'mini-tournament' within the
    >NCAA's.
    
Ever heard a *game* coaching, Crisp?  Naw, guess not, not after watching
the Snuffmeister for so many years.

You also err by overlooking the FACK that the lack of prep time exists for
both coaches, which makes it a contest to see who cain best prepare his 
squad in a matter a hours.

    >In regards to Dean and NCAA performance glenn, I offer no apologies
    >cause none are needed.  Dean's set records for most Tournament wins and
    >most successive times in the Sweet 16.  The only area of contention is
    >the fact that he hasn't been able to mount enough season-ending winning
    >streaks that resulted in winning the final game.
    
The stated objective of the NCAA hoops tourney is to win the Championship.
We know this to be true cuz its very name is the "Men's Basketball Championship
Tournament."  This is why they eliminate the losers.  It's not a function of
mere end-of-season peaks, it's a function of either winning or losing.  Now,
being eliminated is nothing to be ashamed of, unless, that is, you name a_arena
after yourself, are called Great, have oodles a talent all the time, and over
the course a 31 years win only one measly Title.


    >Let me turn the tables on you though.  Why do *you* think Dean hasn't
    >won more Titles?  

Cuz he's a mediocre game coach, and downright bad at game coaching when the
clutch is down.

    >Do you honestly think that after 30 years in the
    >business he somehow forgets how to coach in the tournament??  

No.  I think he's the same overrated mediocre game coach (but O what a 
recruiter!) in the NCAAs that he is the rest of the time.

    >Do you
    >perhaps think he's not that good a coach to begin with, 

Yes.

    >and that all
    >his wins are talent-based?  

Most of them.  Albeit Snuffy teaches a pretty good team concept as a 
coach.
    
    >(In which case, why does the talent
    >suddenly go south during the NCAA's?)
    
The talent doesn't go south, the putatively Great coach does.  Why?  Cuz
he's playing better teams under greater pressure with less prep time on
neutral coaches using alient referees.

Big10 Bigot Tom
    

17.2092NCAA flops are against inferior teamsSHALOT::HUNTTed, that's the prom queen !!!Mon Oct 07 1991 14:2420
17.2093DEF !!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYFrom MattSewell to MikeSewellMon Oct 07 1991 15:041
    
17.2094The game coach, not The System, must be responsibleNAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Oct 08 1991 20:3990
    Just to clear up a couple of points from my earlier reply, MrT, because
    I don't think we're in disagreement on your one disputed point:
    
    > Waugamain, I'd dispute one point, though: The likelihood of underperforming
    > normal success standards is higher during the single elimination NCAA
    > hoops tourney cuz:
    > 
    > 1) The competition tends to be better, especially as one progresses through
    >    to, say, the Sweet Sixteen.
    
    No question.  My claim wasn't that a coach or a system should do
    *better* in the tourney against obviously tougher competition, only 
    that there is *no* conflict between implementing a system of 
    fundamental basketball in the regular season versus the postseason.  
    In both cases the chances of winning are increased versus the 
    team that doesn't stress fundamental, team play.  How come a guy like
    Jim Boeheim hasn't had one of his immense talents get hot and ride an
    end-of-season peak to a national title after he does little more than 
    roll the basketballs out before the game?  Because even if it might 
    sound good, in practice it doesn't work that way. 
    
    > 2) The games are played on a neutral court before a more or less neutral
    >    crowd.
    
    Which should have little effect on the measurement of overall success, 
    as long as the team in question isn't padding its schedule with home 
    games during the regular season, which I have no reason to believe 
    Carolina is doing.
    
    > 3) The elements common to upsets (unconscious play, career team efforts,
    >    ability to play on emotion over talent level) are greatly heightened
    >    during these biggest of games under the conditions set forth in the
    >    two points above.
    
    The crux of the matter.  Yes, maybe emotion can carry a team to a big
    victory, but what about the next game?  And the one after that?  And
    the next one after that?  It takes six games to win the tourney, and 
    even if you do that, what about the next season?  The coach that is 
    depending on emotion, even if it is a factor, is unlikely in a career 
    to win more than a single title.  So why is Dean stuck with the guys 
    who've won one title on sheer guts and emotion (or maybe just plain old 
    dumb luck) instead of the guys who've also developed systems stressing
    fundamental team play (like Wooden, Knight, Rupp, Iba) and won again and
    again?  The end-of-season-peak argument is a crock.  Any warmed-over 
    evangelist can motivate in the short term, but it's the guys with the 
    genius that ACChris claims Dean Smith also possesses that repeat...
    
    > 4) Coaching becomes more of a factor because the games are played with
    >    little or no preparation time against unfamiliar teams with strange
    >    referees using officiating standards established in other leagues,
    >    not to mention the coach's critical role in overcoming the three
    >    playing conditions set forth inthe three points above.
    
    I'll buy this.  We're trying to determine what separates Dean Smith,
    regular-season coach within The System, from Dean Smith, tourney coach
    within The System.  All these factors are certainly relevant to Smith's
    coaching ability in the clutch.
    
    
    Chris, you've asked what I think the reason is that Dean Smith hasn't
    won more titles.  Obviously, I've stated that the business about The
    System not being conducive to "end-of-season peaks" is hogwash, or
    you'd never see a solid, steady powerhouse favorite win the thing more 
    than once.  No, in this case, Dean, wearing the one ring, is alone on 
    the outside looking in amongst Hall of Fame coaches.  That can't be it.
    
    I'm willing to concede that luck has probably played some part in 
    Dean's underachievement, but from what I've seen personally and from
    what others more in the know (like Cap) have documented, yes, I do
    think that Dean has demonstrated less control and less clearheadedness
    in the late stages of the NCAA tourney than perhaps at other times.
    
    Take last spring's game against Kansas.  Forget about that stuff about
    Dean freaking out at the end; that had little bearing on what happened
    in the game.  The fact is that Carolina played sloppy, careless 
    basketball that has to reflect poorly on Smith's game coaching ability.  
    You've concluded that The System's fundamental basketball under Smith 
    versus The System's fundamental basketball under Williams would 
    inevitably produce a sloppy game.  How can you say that?  Fundamentals 
    are fundamentals, and under any system against any system they don't 
    involve racing down the court and taking the first marginally available 
    shot.  Where was The System?  What System?  If we hadn't seen this thing 
    more than a few times from Carolina in the Final Four, it would be one 
    thing, but the repetitiveness makes it hard for me to believe that 
    "luck" explains away the whole problem.  I've got to go with
    sub-standard game coaching combined with the occasional bad break...
    
    glenn
    
17.2095The game coach and The System are one-and-the-same.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Oct 09 1991 11:52134
> No question.  My claim wasn't that a coach or a system should do
> *better* in the tourney against obviously tougher competition, only 
> that there is *no* conflict between implementing a system of 
> fundamental basketball in the regular season versus the postseason.  

I've never said there was a conflict, and Dean's NCAA Tourney record
illustrates this.  His winning percentage is only slightly lower in
the tournament.  Factoring in the increased level of competition his
tourney and regular season win percentages are virtually identical.


> In both cases the chances of winning are increased versus the 
> team that doesn't stress fundamental, team play.  

I won't dispute this, but the fact remains that in a best-of-1 series
fundamental basketball will play far less a factor in the outcome than
if, say, it were a best-of-3/5/7 series.  The odds STILL favor the
fundamentally sound team over the course of the tournament, but the
element of luck plays a much larger role than it otherwise would if
the tourney were conducted like the NBA playoffs.  (Heaven forbid!)


> How come a guy like Jim Boeheim hasn't had one of his immense talents 
> get hot and ride an end-of-season peak to a national title after he does 
> little more than roll the basketballs out before the game?  Because even 
> if it might sound good, in practice it doesn't work that way. 

Only problem here is that Baywhine (tm) came within one (1) missed Keith
Smart jumper of winning a Title.  I'll grant ya though, that if Jeff Lebo
doesn't come down with the flu on game-day and shoot a horrid 2/13, they
don't even reach the Final 4 ...
    

> Which should have little effect on the measurement of overall success, 
> as long as the team in question isn't padding its schedule with home 
> games during the regular season, which I have no reason to believe 
> Carolina is doing.

You're right on this point, Waugamain.  Carolina consistently plays one
of the most difficult non-conference schedules in the country.  Dean's
.700+ win percentage looks all the better when you factor this in combination
with playing in the toughest hoops conference in the USA.  Heady stuff!

    
> The crux of the matter.  Yes, maybe emotion can carry a team to a big
> victory, but what about the next game?  And the one after that?  And
> the next one after that?  It takes six games to win the tourney, and 
> even if you do that, what about the next season?  

Take a look at NC Skate in '83, or Villanova in '85.  Both teams accomplished
exactly this.  State barely even made the tourney in '83.  Both were
underdogs in virtually every game, yet won the whole enchilada.  Neither
were anywhere close to the best team in America, yet as I've pointed out
regularly, the best team very rarely wins.  Why?  Read on.


> dumb luck) instead of the guys who've also developed systems stressing
> fundamental team play (like Wooden, Knight, Rupp, Iba) and won again and
> again?  

Let's leave Wooden, Rupp, and Iba outa this.  They were in a completely
different era which bares precious little relevance on todays reality.
If you wanna hold up Knight as a great tournament coach (by your implication,
way, way better than Dean) then you're gonna have to also answer his years 
of horrid early-season bow-outs, despite being a heavy favorite.  Compare
this to Dean's 12-straight Sweet 16 appearances, 8 Final 4's, etc.


> The end-of-season-peak argument is a crock.  Any warmed-over 
> evangelist can motivate in the short term, but it's the guys with the 
> genius that ACChris claims Dean Smith also possesses that repeat...

Bull.  If any "warmed-over evangelist" can motivate his team to win an
NCAA Tournament (no small feat, BTW) why can't he do it more than once?
You're right on one count though:  from a basketball coaching standpoint,
Dean Smith is about as close to genius as you can get, and if you don't
believe me, ask the coaches who have tutored under him and gone on to
coaching greatness.

    
> No, in this case, Dean, wearing the one ring, is alone on 
> the outside looking in amongst Hall of Fame coaches.  

Haw haw!!!  Oh yea, I'm sure Dean's feelin' *reel* insecure 'bout his
HoF status!  What a joke!  :^(
    

> I'm willing to concede that luck has probably played some part in 
> Dean's underachievement, 

Correct.  Without question luck has worked against Dean on several
occasions in the tourney.  Injury and illness have hit us time-and-time
again.


> Take last spring's game against Kansas.  Forget about that stuff about
> Dean freaking out at the end; that had little bearing on what happened
> in the game.  The fact is that Carolina played sloppy, careless 
> basketball that has to reflect poorly on Smith's game coaching ability.  

I agree: we played sloppy basketball against Kansas.  So did Indiana
a few days earlier.  Big deal.  We played a bad game against KU.  You're
going to use that as proof of why he's only got 1 NCAA Title?  Gimme
a break.

The fact is Dean coached the same game against Kansas as he coached against
Duke 2 weeks earlier.  His massive end-game substituting is used as proof
of bad coaching, but the fact is that's ALWAYS been a component of The
System, and it's a given FACT that few coaches coach end-game situations
better than Dean.  He milks the clock like a miser.  He shuffles players
in-and-out in hopes of increasing his percentages.  He was one of the
first coaches to use offense/defense substitutions in end-game situations.

Hubert Davis is interviewed in this weeks Carolina Blue, and he talks about
his regrets during the Kansas game.  Basically he says what you say: We
Played a Sloppy Game.  Period.  Nobody in their right mind is gonna blame
the coach of a 29-4 team made up of 18-21 year-olds for one sloppy game.
Course we *still* coulda won this sloppy game if Rick Fox had anywhere
close to a normal game for him ...


> I've got to go with sub-standard game coaching combined with the 
> occasional bad break...

Fair enough.  You've at least acknowledged that, if not for an occasional
bad break, Dean would have more Titles.  As to the game coaching part,
The System dictates how Dean coaches 95% of the game.  The philosophy
is that other teams adjust to us, not vice versa.  Listen to Valvano on
this, he'll tell ya.  To beat Dean, you gotta beat The System.  He's
not gonna pull any surprises on game-day ...


- ACC Chris    
    
17.2096Thank you for proving one of the oppositions pointsANGLIN::KIRKMANWhat a WONDERFUL honeymoonWed Oct 09 1991 12:1915
>Course we *still* coulda won this sloppy game if Rick Fox had anywhere
>close to a normal game for him ...
    
    But ACChris - one component of game-coaching (some say an important
    part) is recognizing when a player is having a sub-par game and either
    getting him out of the game or changing the game plan to put him in
    better situations.  This comment implies that Dean did neither.  And I
    though the System didn't rely on any 1 superstar to carry the team (or
    drag it down).
    
    One of the consistant critizisms against Dean is his poor game-coaching
    - and you go and use that as excuse.
    
    
    Commander Scott
17.2097Pure and simple Monday-morning quarterbacking ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Oct 09 1991 12:2910
    I can just picture now the criticism Dean would be receiving had he
    benched his 1st team all-ACC player cause he was missing and
    substituted with 8-minutes p/game frosh Brian Reese, 'specially when
    Fox has a history of breaking out of shooting slumps with clutch play
    down the stretch!
    
    T-hypocrisy (tm) at its worst ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2098Making progressNAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Oct 09 1991 12:5665
    
>> dumb luck) instead of the guys who've also developed systems stressing
>> fundamental team play (like Wooden, Knight, Rupp, Iba) and won again and
>> again?  

> Let's leave Wooden, Rupp, and Iba outa this.  They were in a completely
> different era which bares precious little relevance on todays reality.
    
    Elaborate.  The game has changed, the one object of the game that 
    we're dealing with (to win the championship; I'll concede the other
    heart-rending stuff about fair play and phone calls to ex-players, a
    blatant attempt to once again sidetrack the issue) hasn't changed.  
    Exactly one team wins the championship each year, same as before.  
    You're not going to wriggle out of this with the talent or parity 
    angles, either.  Another coach might be able to point to parity as 
    an explanation, but you can't do that entirely with Dean Smith, as he 
    has been the best in the country at recruiting talent over the period 
    of his 30-year tenure, by your own admission.  I agree that you still 
    can't compare titles one-for-one, but 1-for-31 can't be explained away
    here either...
    
>> The end-of-season-peak argument is a crock.  Any warmed-over 
>> evangelist can motivate in the short term, but it's the guys with the 
>> genius that ACChris claims Dean Smith also possesses that repeat...

> Bull.  If any "warmed-over evangelist" can motivate his team to win an
> NCAA Tournament (no small feat, BTW) why can't he do it more than once?
    
    You've managed to miss my point here and at the same time actually 
    reinforce it.  You're suddenly divorcing yourself from the existence 
    of the "end-of-season peak" as a controllable factor (guess which team
    benefits from an emotional end-of-season peak?  In 20-20 hindsight, the 
    team that wins, of course...).  The comment about "motivation" was 
    facetious, as the preceding sentence citing  "dumb luck" should have 
    made obvious.  I agree that emotion is an overrated quantity (why can't 
    a cohesive team under a cohesive system be motivated by emotion just as 
    much as the red-hot underdog individual?-- of course it can...)  I've 
    never said that luck is not a factor.   However, as has been 
    statistically shown in spite of regular-season winning percentage, 
    tournament winning percentage, Sweet 16 appearances, Final Four 
    appearances, ad nauseum, "luck" does not do a great job of explaining 
    1-for-31, even assuming an AVERAGE tourney team with AVERAGE tourney
    talent.  That's just a mathematical reality...

>> No, in this case, Dean, wearing the one ring, is alone on 
>> the outside looking in amongst Hall of Fame coaches.  

> Haw haw!!!  Oh yea, I'm sure Dean's feelin' *reel* insecure 'bout his
> HoF status!  What a joke!  :^(
    
    No mention of insecurity here.  A simple statement of fact on the issue
    at hand, number of championships vis-a-vis fundamental coaching systems.  
    Who's trying to turn an objective discussion into a p*&%ing contest
    now?
    
    Well, it does appear that we've reached some understanding, though.   
    It seems from this last response that you have chosen "luck" as your
    explanation and are backing away from that bull about the supposed 
    tradeoff between The System and championships, what with your 
    disassociation from the "end-of-season peak" philosophy.  From my end, 
    I've admitted that luck has always been a partial factor.  Never 
    claimed otherwise...
    
    glenn
    
17.2099who would explain the win?HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Oct 09 1991 13:0411
>    I can just picture now the criticism Dean would be receiving had he

Especially if he violated the very principles of the System and actually
won the game. The faithful would have to deal with all those previous
choke jobs.

Lucky for all of us, the Tar Heels got what they designed - losing the
last game of the season to an inferior team - and everyone is once again
thankful for Dean being his good ol' self.

TTom
17.2100Since when do Coaches listen to critics?ANGLIN::KIRKMANWhat a WONDERFUL honeymoonWed Oct 09 1991 13:0728
    Benching Fox was only one (1) of the options I gave.  There is also
    
    1) Have the player stop shooting - especially 20+ ft. jump shots.
    
    2) Set up plays to get the player better shots.
    
    And I'm not a basketball expert.  I'm sure a professional coach could
    list numerous more options. (Picks, screens, pick-n-roll, post-up)
    
    The point is that game-coaching is about adjusting to a situation. 
    Whether it be a star having a bad shooting day, the refs calling every
    touch foul, or a bench-sitter having a phenominal game.   By your own
    comments, Dean has difficulty dealing with situations that were not
    planned for in advance.
    
    A System has to be flexible to both deal with difficulties AND take
    advantage of opportunities.  For example, the System doesn't dictate
    exactly which player at which exact second takes a shot from this
    specific point on the floor.  Such a system would be rediculous and
    loss many games.  But in my personal opinion, Dean's System is not
    flexible enough in other ways.  Such as allowing hot players freedom to
    shoot, or by always allowing seniors more freedom than talented
    sophmores.
    
    The System is certainly not flexible enough to be measured on the
    
    Commander Scott
    same scale as his recruiting system (state-of-excellence).  
17.2101STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishWed Oct 09 1991 13:5817
    Chris,
    
    First of all if you're going to argue with the big boys than you have
    to have the facts... Lebo was not 2-13 he was 0-5.  It hurts your
    credibility when you don't even have a command of the facts about your 
    own team.
    
    2nd fact is that Dean has more early exits than Bob does in the last 
    25 years(let's not forget losing to Penn was considered one of the
    biggest upsets of all time, in fact it was the first time a #1 seed 
    has lost to a last placed seed).
    
    I'll list the performances of Dean in the NCAA's and you can go in 
    and explain why Dean shouldn't have won even some of these games.
    
    Cap
    
17.2102NC's Failures, explain them Chris....STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishWed Oct 09 1991 13:5985
ACChris likes to speak of other team's first round failures in the tourney
but forgets the history of his own favorite team...(For the record Smith has
had five 1st or 2nd round exits, compared to only four for Knight).

So the 'most dangerous' weasel must strike again, detailing 24 embarrassing
periods in the last 31 years(and this does not include Smith's embarrassing
exits from 85 - 90).

1. The most telling choke period in NC history came from 1978 - 1980.
   In that time, North Carolina:

	- Lost in the 1st round to San Francisco.  NC only had Mike O'Koren
	  Phil Ford, Dudley Bradley and Al Wood on this untalented team.

	- Lost in the 1st round as the #1 seed to the #9 seed Penn(first time 
	  in history that this had happened), in one of the biggest upsets in 
	  the history of the NCAA.  This team had the players mentioned above
	  plus a young Jimmy Black.  NC finished the season as the #3 ranked
	  team in the country.

	- Lost in the 1st round to Texas A&M in another big upset.

   There were 3 years, 3 high seedings for NC and 3 first round losses.

2. In the period of 1975 - 1976, NC also had two more patented underachieving
   tournies.  In those two years, North Carolina:

	- Lost in the 2nd round to Syracuse.  NC had Phil Ford, Mitch Kupchak
	  Tommy Lagarde and Walter Davis on that team.  Syracuse started
	  Hackett, Sease, Seibert, Lee and Williams.  Anyone remember those
	  players.

	- Lost in the first round to Alabama.  This team had Walter Davis,
	  Lagarde, Ford, Kupchak and Dudley Bradley on it.  Alabama had
	  a bunch of no-names.

3. In 1983-84 more surprising losses and underachievements occured.

	- In 1983, they lost to big underdog Georgia.  This is with
	  a team consisting of Daugherty, Doherty, Perkins and Jordan.

	- In 1984, they lost to unranked Indiana when they were the #1 ranked 
	  team in the country.  Here are the line-ups for that game:

		North Carolina		Indiana

		Sam Perkins		Mike Giomi
		Matt Doherty		Marty Simmons
		Brad Daugherty		Uwe Blab
		Michael Jordan		Dan Dakich
		Kenny Smith		Steve Alford
		Dave Popson		Stew Robinson
		Joe Wolf		Steve Eyel
		
4. In their 7 final four or finals losses they have been heavily favored in 3 
   games and favored in another 3 games.

	- In 1967 they were heavily favored as the #1 seed to beat unranked
	  Dayton(the lowest seeded team in the tourney) but lost in the final
	  four.

	- In 1968 they were slight favorites over Purdue but lost by 27 points
	  in the final four and than lost the 3rd place game by 20 points to
	  DRAKE!

	- In 1972 they were HEAVILY favored to defeat #5 seed Florida State
	  but lost in the final four.

	- In 1977 they were favored to beat Marquette but lost in the finals,
	  despite having four players that had played on the previous year's
	  Gold medal team.  Dean was terribly outcoached in this game and
	  he played 14 players in this game substituting frantically(sound
	  familiar?????) :-)

	- In 1981 they were favored to defeat Indiana, but Knight triumphed
	  over Smith again.

	- In 1991 they lost to a less talented Kansas team as Dean left the
	  game in an ebarrassing display of poor sportsmanship(getting tossed).

5. We could also talk about the 7 year period at the start of his career where
   he failed to make the tourney or the 5 year period in the 70's where he
   made the tourney only once.


17.2103STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishWed Oct 09 1991 14:0032
A little research on the history of NC's NCAA losses shows that ACChris once
again was fibbin' when he states that NC rarely loses a game because one
player shoots poorly in the 'system'.  Take a glance at the numbers.....

Year	Player		Stats	FG %	UNC Lost to
----	------		-----	----	-----------
1967	Lewis		5-18	.273	Dayton
1968	Charlie Scott	6-17	.353	UCLA
1969	Charlie Scott	6-19	.316	Purdue(yes the same Charlie Scott of NBA fame)
1972	George Karl	5-14	.357	Florida St.
1977	Phil Ford    	3-11 	.273	Marquette
1979	Dudley Bradley	3-9	.300	Penn(Huge Upset)
1981	James Worthy	3-11	.273	Indiana
1984	Michael Jordan  6-15	.400	Indiana
1985	K.Smith/R.Smith 5-17	.294	Villanova
1986	K. Smith	3-9	.333	Louisville
1987	J. Lebo		0-5	.000	Syracuse
1988	JR Reid/Madden  5-19	.263	Arizona
1989	Steve Bucknall  2-7	.286	Michigan
1990	Williams/Fox	9-25	.360	Arkansas(Fox gearing up for 1991)
1991	Fox		5-22	.227	Kansas
			----	-----
Totals		       66-218   .302  

Each year, Dean had talented underclassmen on the bench and in almost every
case the poor-shooting 'star' was allowed to play more than 30 minutes to 
shoot his way out of the slump and shoot NC to another 'excellent' loss.

Does anyone see a pattern here???

Cap
    
17.2104TarHell Rebutt-all 101RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JONone But The BraveWed Oct 09 1991 14:2517
    Cap,
    
    While I'm not Chris, I have been studing TarHell Rebutt-all (TM) for a
    few years.
    
    First:
    
    In most of those games, the other team was incredibly hot, our star
    players were injured or sick, and the overall success of the system
    justifies the random loss in the tourney.  Since Dean is a HOFer, with
    a_Olympic Gold, a title, 700+ wins, 11 straight Sweet 16's and calls
    his ex-players on the phone, these randam bad luck losses don't
    diminish from this 'great coach' (using Bob Hunt's words...)
    
    JD
    
    (Hey, I'm still in training, but I have the gist correct)
17.2105Simply Classic JD....STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishWed Oct 09 1991 14:341
    
17.2106Cap == Noting TerroristRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Oct 09 1991 15:169
    One can only imagine the image of the sinister Cap sitting back, 
    RoNing 99% of the time, just *waiting* to POUNCE on the sickly sheep 
    that strays from the herd.  
    
    Thanks for the statistical correction on Lebo though, since it helps
    rather than hinders my argument.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2107STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishWed Oct 09 1991 18:0412
    
    Re - 1: Not really, the flu is an excuse that doesn't wash.... If he
    went out on the court than he was good enough to play, if not Dean
    should have realized this and sat him down or rested him more so that
    he could contribute when it was crucial.   Who's to say that he was or
    wasn't sick enough to affect his performance.....
    
    Very, very lame and embarrassing excuse your using.  Be a man and admit
    Dean's faults and failures, not a mouse who hides behind feeble
    excuses.
    
    Cap
17.2108Boggles the mindNAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Oct 09 1991 18:1214
    
    The question you've got to ask yourself is how it is that, over a 
    31-year period, Dean Smith could be so personally beset by these
    pestilences that no one else has had to deal with.  Now I can see where
    maybe the guy coaching at Podunk U who makes his once-in-a-lifetime run
    has something to lament when his star point guard contracts the
    sniffles on the day of the championship game, but 30 times over? 
    Uh-uh.
    
    Hey Chris, do you keep a running catalog of these medical maladies?
    "1983?  That would be Jeff Lebo, flu bug..."  Too funny...
    
    glenn
    
17.2109Kansas broke craft and wonSHALOT::HUNTTed, that's the prom queen !!!Wed Oct 09 1991 19:3241
 Mustn't also forget some of the most damning evidence of all ...
 
 After this year's delicious loss to Kansas, each of the Jayhawks stepped
 forward and described their win ... 
 
 Almost to a man, they each insisted that the two mirror images of "The
 System" canceled each other out on the floor.   They knew all the Heels'
 plays and the Heels knew all their plays.   They knew all the cuts, all
 the passing lanes, all the shots, who should do what and when and where
 and why.   Truly it was the Teacher and the Student ...
 
 But they all said that they felt they won because they knew how to
 improvise outside of "The System".   They had been taught how to free
 lance and how to create opportunities where none supposedly existed
 according to "The System".   And they did and they won ...
 
 After hearing that, is it any wonder that Fox, Chilcutt, and Rice shot a
 combined 8-for-36 ???   As seniors, they had each had four years of "The
 System".   By then, the "urge" to break tradecraft had been completely
 drummed out of them.   They simply could not free lance outside of "The
 System".   Montross and Rozier might have been able to but they were
 buried on the bench because they were too young.
 
 At the end, Dean Smith was confronted with a bleak situation where all he
 could do was helplessly wave fresh subs into the game and watch them drown
 in the mirror.   Finally, he had had enough and took his leave.   His
 student coached again on Monday night and lost to the team the teacher had
 punished just three weeks earlier.
 
 That, my friends, is an example of incredibly poor game coaching and it
 serves as a telling microcosm of an entire career's worth of failure in
 the NCAA tournament ... save one errant Fred Brown pass.
 
 And it's why we love Snuffy so much.   I've said this before ... *nobody*
 scares me like Roy Williams does ... "The System" *with* improvisation
 encouraged and nurtured.   Shudder.   No wonder he beat Bob Knight ...
 something Snuff has failed twice now to do.
 
 Please stay in Lawrence, Roy.  The Big Eight needs you.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2110Amazing.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 10 1991 00:3710
    re: .-1
    
    Here's a guy whose alma mater routinely gets pounded by Dean Smith
    coached teams, ... and he says that not only does he want MORE of the
    same, but he wants it even WORSE!  
    
    Talk about a glutten for punishment ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2111CAM::WAYWith Malice Toward NoneThu Oct 10 1991 10:0026
>    Here's a guy whose alma mater routinely gets pounded by Dean Smith
>    coached teams, ... and he says that not only does he want MORE of the
>    same, but he wants it even WORSE!  
    
That don't matter in the least.

Bob's note put this entire matter in perspective, even for someone who might
be reading who knows very little about basketball...

It's great to have a system, or a plan, but what a plan or system
should be is a guideline.  There are times in life when that guideline
just plain fails, or isn't doing the job.  One's desire to excel and
overcome obstacles should then take over, and you break free of the
plan and improvise.

If your plan breaks down, or worse, if the "enemy" is on to it, then you
have two choices.  Do a turtle play, where you pull your head back into
the shell of your system and get the sh_t kicked out of your, or improvise,
overcome, and adapt.

Dean is not capable of that, and that's why, when faced with someone
who can and does improvise, he fails miserabley, eyes bulging, veins
popping out of his neck, face red.....


'Saw
17.2112If I were BobHunt, I'd be welcoming *anybody* but Dean ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 10 1991 10:2617
    re: .-1
    
    You don't understand The System 1Way (tm).  Go back and read my last
    200 or so notes that contain the word "System".
    
    In short, The System cannot be abandoned or modified each time a player
    misses a shot.  A (good) analogy is that of percentage baseball.  (Dean
    Smith wrote a book (his only one) that could've been entitled
    'Percentage Basketball' that goes into gory detail about playing the
    percentages in basketball.)  You don't abandon percentage baseball when
    events work against you.  You don't abandon The System for *exactly*
    the same reason.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2113CAM::WAYWith Malice Toward NoneThu Oct 10 1991 10:4924
>    In short, The System cannot be abandoned or modified each time a player
>    misses a shot.  A (good) analogy is that of percentage baseball.  (Dean


I'm not saying each time a player misses a shot.  But when you've got
a guy going 5-22, it looks to me like he's missing 17 shots, and that's
34 potential points....

All I'm saying is that the greatest coaches and the greatest military leaders
(for after all, what is sports but war without guns) make plans, but if
your opponent has successfully buggered your plan, then you've got to
overcome, improvise and adapt.  A buggered plan is not a player missing
a shot, but let's say, a Kansas effectively shutting down your system.


I'm not criticizine the System itself, I'm criticizing the Snuffmeister's
overzealousness to steadfastly cling to the System like a drowning man
clutches a straw as the maelstrom sucks him down.

In short, Snuff is not a good game coach....


'Saw

17.2114One more time, with feeling.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 10 1991 11:158
    You can't say The System is Good and Dean is Bad.  THEY'RE ONE AND THE
    SAME!  They're intertwined so tightly they cannot be seperated.
    
    Git it?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.2115Bob Knows VirginiaSHALOT::MEDVIDI'll sail this ship aloneThu Oct 10 1991 11:246
>    Here's a guy whose alma mater routinely gets pounded by Dean Smith
    
    At least he faithfully roots for his alma matter and doesn't prostitute
    himself for a school he never went to.
    
    	--dan'l
17.2116CAM::WAYWith Malice Toward NoneThu Oct 10 1991 11:2519
>    You can't say The System is Good and Dean is Bad.  THEY'RE ONE AND THE
>    SAME!  They're intertwined so tightly they cannot be seperated.
    
Then I'll say that the system is incapable of improvising, overcoming,
and adapting to situations that are detrimental to its continued use...

If you're driving a race car, and you've got all-weather tires on there,
you might win a lot of races.  But if the Indy 500 is run on an extremely
hot day, and the front runner put on their hot-weather compounds, you're
not going to win, if you steadfastly cling to your all-weather compound.

Same thing with DeanSystem(tm).


But you know, I think I've got it all figured out.  Improvising, 
overcoming, and adapting means that a system/organism/society is
evolving.  Since most people, I'd bet, down in that area of Deanville
don't believe in evolution, they can't see that for the system to get
better it must improvise-overcome-adapt....
17.2117You'd think a Bucs 'W' would make him happy, but nooooooooooooooooooooooooooRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 10 1991 11:3616
    Dean went 29-5 last year, won an ACC Championship, finished in the
    Top 5 in the polls, and reached the Final 4 with essentially the 
    identical System that he was running in the late 70's.  He's kept up 
    with the times nicely though, incorporating the 3-point shot (we're 
    usually at the top end of the ACC in 3-pointers attempted) and the 
    45-second clock.  Not too shabby, IMO.
    
    
    re: dan'l
    
    So should we all show our sheepskin before being "allowed" to be a fan?  
    I doubt too many people will question my knowledge or loyalty toward
    Carolina basketball ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2118CAM::WAYWith Malice Toward NoneThu Oct 10 1991 11:5823
I feel like this is a relay race, and we're all running laps around
the same old tired worn out track....


Okay, so DeanSystem(tm) has changed little since the 70s.

Do you think that if DeanSystem(tm) had recognized the problem in the
Kansas game like his protoge did, and actually coached, improvised
overcome and adapted, that maybe, just maybe DeanSystem and the 
automatons that play in Chapel Hill might have been in the final two days
later, facing a Duke squad they'd played and beat three weeks prior?

And tell me this, are all those accomplishments any substitute for
a real bona-fide, non-gift Champeenship.  Don't you have a little
Loinal-Fire(tm) when you get to thinking about a real honest-to-goodness
gen-you-whine Title Banner hangin' in the Dean dome????

just curious....

'Saw


17.2119Dean admits Kansas is running The System better ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 10 1991 12:139
    Tough question Saw, considering Dean was essentially coaching against
    Dean that night against Kansas.  
    
    I give Roy Williams credit, but let's face it, as Roy himself said
    before and after, everything he knows coaching-wise he learned from
    Dean!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2120CAM::WAYWith Malice Toward NoneThu Oct 10 1991 12:2118
>    Tough question Saw, considering Dean was essentially coaching against
>    Dean that night against Kansas.  

Reminds me of TecmoBowl on Nintendo, where if you enter the right password
you can watch the computer play itself 8^)

    
>    I give Roy Williams credit, but let's face it, as Roy himself said
>    before and after, everything he knows coaching-wise he learned from
>    Dean!

But I'd bet Roy Williams added some Roy Williams to DeanSystem(tm).  It
appears so considering the results of the game, and considering that
there was a little adapting to the situation of the "System" cancelling
itself out....

'Saw

17.2121CHIEFF::MACNEALruck `n' rollThu Oct 10 1991 12:2211
17.2122MOD speaks: ACC Chris wins war of attrition! [tanks, Mac. :^)]RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 10 1991 12:411
    
17.2123System and flexibility are not mutually exclusiveANGLIN::KIRKMANWhat a WONDERFUL honeymoonThu Oct 10 1991 12:4334
    Yes, we know, Dean went 29-5 last year, has 700+ wins, has umpteen NCAA
    appearences, etc.  THAT IS NOT WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING.  Dean is an
    excellent coach.  Most noters have acknowledged that fact (which speak
    for themselves).
    
    The issue being presented is that to be considered a GREAT coach, Dean
    must have more NCAA titles.  Several noters have established the claim
    that a major reason for the lack of titles is Dean's poor
    game-coaching.  
    
    Amoung other things, one essential portion of game-coaching is altering
    the coach's System to deal with game-day exceptions.  In poor-man's
    terms: If it works, use it.  It is then up to the coach to include
    these game-day changes into his system.  This prevents the changes for
    destroying his system.
    
    Now, here is the logical extention to the above statement: If the coach
    refuses to adjust his System to game-conditions, he is a poor
    game-coach, by the definition of game-coaching.
    
    Other coaches considered for greatness had systems.  Yet these same
    coaches allowed for variation and flexibility.  Wooden was one of the
    1st coaches recognized for stressing team play, yet Kareem and others
    were allowed to score their high point totals.  Knight has a system
    where only man defense is played.  Yet one year when his man defense
    wasn't working, he played zone periodically, and more importantly won
    with it.  I sure there are multitudes of other examples, but I am not
    the historian that some noters in hear are.
    
    The examples show that a successful System does not exclude
    improvization.  It is the coach that chooses not to include it in his
    system.
    
    Commander Scott
17.2124CHIEFF::MACNEALruck `n' rollThu Oct 10 1991 12:535
17.2126GO CAROLINA BLUE! WHAT A TEAM!!AXIS::ROBICHAUDDoin' the Tomahawk ChopThu Oct 10 1991 14:0712
	You know Chris as I was sitting here casually reading this note it 
hit me!  It hit me like thunder and lighting!  It was like a lightbulb 
going off over my haid!  You're absolutely right about Dean.  He is 
probably the greatest college coach of all time!  His multiple Sweet 
Sixteen appearances, his Hall of Fame players, his squeaky clean program.  
It all adds up to the best darned coach to ever teach this game!  Yessiree 
I've seen the light and the error of my ways.  I'll never sink to the level 
of the weasels again.  Hail North Carolina!  Hail Dean Smith!  And above 
all...
	Hail to The System!

				/Don
17.2127When do the collection trays get passed out in this church?CST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis Today?Thu Oct 10 1991 14:1410
    Slasher,  
    
    Me too except I just had a vision and it spoke to me,
    
    "Kneel thyself before the all holy system and sin no more"
    
    I say "Halleluja"!!!!!
    
    Kev
    
17.2128AGNT99::CHILDSHey Sis, pull my toungue out ,will ya?Thu Oct 10 1991 14:1611
 While I won't question your knowledge of Carolina basketball I will question
 your loyality....

 one has to ask why why why????

 there are programs with better coaches, programs as clean, coaches with
 filberts not ones who design a 4-corner offense with the most talented
 bunch in 'merica. Also the colors suck....

 mike
17.2129Doug's son to DukeHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Oct 10 1991 14:547
Meanwhile on the reruiting trail, Chirs (I Think) Collins, son of Doug
Collins, former coach of the Bulls, etc., has verbally agreed to attend
Duke. He's going to be looked upon as a point guard, possibly starting
after Bobby Hurley moves on to whatever else he does after he doesn't
make the NBA.

TTom
17.2130He fouled him !!! No !!! Yes !!! No !!! Yes !!! ...SHALOT::HUNTTed, that's the prom queen !!!Thu Oct 10 1991 15:2729
17.2131CAM::WAYWith Malice Toward NoneThu Oct 10 1991 16:193
Bob, you got me rolling big time!

'Saw
17.2132ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewThu Oct 10 1991 16:4512
    re .2123
    
    Bravo on a well articulated summation, Kirkmain!
    
    re ACCrisp
    
    Oh, now I git it: Congrat's to Snuffy Smif' for actually having the
    flexibility to score on 3-point shots and avoid giving possession of
    the rock up on the 45 second clock.  'Course, 100% of all non-Smif'
    coaches managed the same, but let's give credit where credit is due!
    
    Big10 MrT
17.2133RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 10 1991 17:0134
    I'm supposed to highlight a Dean flaw that reveals he taught his
    student *too* well???  Okay then, I admit it.  Dean did TOO good a job
    teaching Roy Williams everything he knows about basketball.  Are we all
    happy now?
    
    BTW, you all have badly misunderstood me if ya think I don't think
    Dean's never made bench coaching mistakes.  Most recently I pointed
    out:
    
    o He shoulda called a TO during Georgia Tech's 'W' in Chapel Hill
      (argh!) during the Jackets 2nd half run.
    
    o He shoulda gone zone against Duke (again at home) in our regular
      season ending 'L' to the Nerds that cost us what is normally the
      more important of the two (2) ACC Titles.  [This year I make an
      exception and vote the Tournament the most important, cause I payed
      good money to attend. :^)]
    
    o He substituted too much.  Here I'm not talking about end-game subing
      like against Kansas, but 1st half substituting.  He was running guys
      in and out too fast, trying to make everybody happy.  We ended up
      losing Rozier and Harris cause of PT problems anyways.  He probably
      shoulda taken the BobKnight approach and just made some guys sit.
      We basically handed South Carolina a win because of the wholesale
      substituting, although Hubie Davis' bonehaid play at the end didn't
      help.
    
    There, I've done it.  I've pointed out a few mistakes Dean has made.
    Do I feel stoopid pointing out the mistakes of a HoF coach?  Sure I do,
    but at least now I know how the rest of you must feel, with yer
    constant Monday-morning quarterbacking ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2134Give 'em what for Chris...AXIS::ROBICHAUDCarolina BlueThu Oct 10 1991 17:091
    
17.2135ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Oct 10 1991 17:1317
    re 1
    
    Irrelevant.  You have only managed to - now that your cornered by 
    Fact and hounded by Logic - concede a few obvious examples of Snuffy's
    incopetence.  But in doing this you hide behind the given that all
    coach's makes mistakes.  Take for example BobKnight holding on too long
    against a well-coached Richmond squad with his game plane of forcing
    the ball into a_intimidated Dean Garrett.
    
    No, what we Antis must have is a flat statement from you that Dean Smif'
    is only Excellent and may not don the "G" string, that he is a choke
    artist, the game's worst-ever squanderer of talent, and the most over-
    rated coach ever.  
    
    Admit these things or you must Final Four.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.2136QB; football; right?HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Oct 10 1991 17:145
>    constant Monday-morning quarterbacking ...

I think that I found another flaw.

TTom
17.2137CAM::WAYWith Malice Toward NoneThu Oct 10 1991 17:3122
>    I'm supposed to highlight a Dean flaw that reveals he taught his
>    student *too* well???  Okay then, I admit it.  Dean did TOO good a job
>    teaching Roy Williams everything he knows about basketball.  Are we all
>    happy now?
    
This is a non-sequitur.

If Dean taught Roy Williams everything that Roy Williams knows, then one
would suppose that Dean would have known how to improvise outside of
the system, which Dean doesn't, since Dean is The System.

So, it seems to me like Dean taught Roy Williams everything he (Dean)
knew about the DeanSystem(tm) and then Roy Williams, being a better
coach, learned a little more from his own inquisitive haid.

Thus Dean was beaten by his student, and performed The Geek Dance in
the last 35 seconds of the game, while Kansas went on to play
Duke for all the marbles.....


Let's face it...Dean's a has-been.....8^)

17.2138ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Oct 10 1991 17:518
    Not to mention, that once Snuffy's remarkable geek-dance was done and
    the spin control jobs were completed by Billy (Fudge) Packer et al,
    Roy went on to receive a spanking from a coach who not only was taught
    how to coach hoops but how to *play* it by The Master himself.
    
    Acolyte vs. acolyte, and the best acolyte won.  Ha. 
    
    Big10 Tom
17.2139I don't follow you, SawHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Oct 10 1991 17:521
>This is a non-sequitur.
17.2140CAM::WAYWith Malice Toward NoneThu Oct 10 1991 17:5417
TTom.....

Chris is saying that Dean taught Roy everything he (Roy) knows.

If that were truly the case, then Dean would also be able to improvise
like Roy did in the big System-vs-System-Mano-a-Mano game last spring.

Dean CAN'T do that, since by Chris' own admisssion Dean IS the System
and the System IS Dean.

Therefore, Roy must've picked up the improvisation ability somewhere other
than Dean.

Therefore, Dean couldn't have taught Roy everything Roy knows....


Get it?
17.2141ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Oct 10 1991 18:004
    Frank, that last note was NOT silly-jism, it was a world-class
    syllogism!
    
    MrT
17.2142More ...SHALOT::HUNTTed, that's the prom queen !!!Thu Oct 10 1991 18:1114
 You're right, 'Saw ... Soup says that Snuffy has taught Roy Williams
 everything Roy Williams knows about coaching.
 
 It just ain't true.   Snuff taught him everything Snuff knows.   Roy did a
 quick tally and decided he needed even more so he went out and made
 himself even better and then whipped ol' Coach Inertia right where it hurt
 ... in the Final Four on national tube.
 
 Ouch.   Not to mention that he also took down Bob Knight and Nolan
 Richardson along the way.   Triple ouch.  Now you know why I want him to
 stay right where he is ... he's easily the most promising young coach in
 the country.  Easily.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2143Frank demonstrates imense brain power....AGNT99::CHILDSHey Sis, pull my toungue out ,will ya?Thu Oct 10 1991 18:124
whew Frank you better rest now your brain might blow a cork or something..

 ;^)
17.2144CAM::WAYWith Malice Toward NoneThu Oct 10 1991 18:1416
>whew Frank you better rest now your brain might blow a cork or something..
>
> ;^)


Already did...there's immense steam/gray_matter/scalp stain on my
whiteboard next to my workstation.

Damn, when I get into these projects and then get deep into this
logic stuff, it gets so tough on the cleaning crew 8^)

'Saw


PS  Bob, you better (tm) that Coach Inertia...that's a GREAT moniquer for
    Snuffmeister...
17.2145talent *does* count tooANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Oct 10 1991 18:2612
    Roy's not all that young, is he?  As for "knocking off Bob," keep in
    mind that Bob was still centerless, and had his PF moved back into the
    middle after over-his-haid HS mediocrity Matt Novers' humiliation and
    that PF, Eric Anderson, was nearly immobile from a lower-back condition
    now hopefully cured.  Also hopefully cured is IU's long stint without
    a legit center, with either Alan Henderson or Todd Lindemann finally
    taking over that slot and letting Anderson play PF where he belongs.
     
    Meanwhile, Roy had a promising senior in the middle who as I remember
    went late in the first round...
    
    MrT
17.2146CAM::WAYWith Malice Toward NoneThu Oct 10 1991 18:341
Boy, I'm gettin' a woodie waiting for the season to start!
17.2147MorT opens mouf, inserts BobLanier-sized foot! Heh!!111RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 10 1991 18:5919
    THE ACC HANDBOOK is out and on the newstand.  This is a *must* in my
    library. (i.e. the bafroom)  Sure it's a hefty $4.95, but well worth
    it.  Each team has a good 6 pages written on it, and the recruiting
    info is top-shelf.
    
    They're picking Duke #1 and IU #2.  Carolina is rated #8, which is
    about right, IMO.  
    
    
    re: .2138 (MorT)
    
    Haw haw haw!!!!  Thanks for pointing out how a Bob disciple beat up on
    a Dean disciple.  Only problem is, the Dean disciple beat up on Top
    5-ranked (and heavily favored) IU less than a week earlier!!
    
    Haw!!!1111
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2148ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Oct 10 1991 20:0674
    You continue to assume we Antis are in the same position as you,
    ACCrisp, but we're not.  I'm happy to accept IU's various rankings
    frobetween 2-6, but feel that they are really somewhere in the
    neighborhood of 10th best going in.  Last year's Hoosier edition was
    good but flawed:
    
    * Too many guards, no center, and only one PF (none at all off the
      bench)
    
    * Poor rebounding (again, no center, a PF out of position at C, no
      depth at the F position)
    
    * Poor outside shooting except for their SF and PF, with the SF 
      knocking it down beautifully but their PF (Anderson) unable to use
      his fine shooting cuz he was in the middle banging with much stronger
      and taller people, usually getting worn down and into foul trouble
      against true centers.
    
    But that IU team was talented and deep, and played up to their
    abilities and won a share a the Big10 crown and attained a most 
    Excellent Loss with a Sweet16 appearance, where, btw, they got blown
    out by a beautifully coached Kansas squad who pointedly exploited the
    very weaknesses I already mentioned.
    
    THIS year's IU squad will be much better, mainly cuz they for the 
    first time in over a decade actually recruited three big men who are
    supposed to have the ability to play at a big-time level on the inside.
    Alan Henderson is the blue chip, Brian Evans is no blue chipper but is
    a true widebody who'll be raw but will give them some floor game skills
    on the baseline that they sorely lacked last year.  Todd Lindemann is a
    shot in the dark.  Big, but skinny and raw.  
    
    I believe that Henderson will step right in but he's unbelievably
    skinny and will probably of necessity be kept out of the C position cuz
    he won't make it there.  He's got great a super shooter's touch, can
    handle the ball unbelievably well for his size, and has fine timing
    for his jump when defending or reboudning.
    
    I also believe that Evans will make it come later in the year, but as
    a role player on D, passing, blocking out and rebounding, taking shots
    and hitting them when open.
    
    Lindemann is the key.  He reputedly looks to be a stiff, but showed 
    signs in his first-ever big-time All-Star games this summer.  If Todd
    cain hold up as IU's first true middlemain in years then a whole vista
    a things open up for Bob, like maybe running Calbert at guard where 
    he'll one day play in the NBA.
    
    If Lindemann makes it in the middle then IU may indeed be #2 in the
    country.  If he flops during his frosh year then IU sags to a deserved
    ranking in the teens.
    
    It's hard for me to see a team that needs performance from THREE frosh
    as the second best team in the nation going in.  With Bob's vaunted 
    ability to develop players and mould a machine-like team, they could
    well deserve that ranking by tourney time.  
    
    Tourney time, Crispy Critter.  A time that sends you into Most Excellent
    paroxyms of obfuscation, a time that sends MrT and other IU fans into
    thigh-shuddering spasms of delight.
    
    And remember, CC, it cain't be said that I'm sand bagging or lowering
    expectations or the like, for as a Bob fan no excuses are necessary:
    
    	* In 20 years 3 Titles and 9 Big10 Titles, 3::20, 1::7
    
    It is only that in my role as a_Objective Analyst I must submit my
    indisputable proofs as far as the talent goes.  But the talent thing
    cain't be a_excuse where none is necessary!
    
    Bring 'em on!
    
    Big10 MrT
    
17.2149DYPSS1::ROPERBillyMartin,WoodyHayes,BobKnightFri Oct 11 1991 01:1519
    Re 17.2142 >> he's easily the most promising young coach in the
               >> country.  Easily.
    
    Bob, I don't believe Roy is that young.  Didn't he spend close to 20
    years under the Deanster? (18 if my memory serves correct)  Keep in
    mind that I'm a bit biased, but I think Rick Pitino alone deserves the
    title as the "best young coach" in the country.  I used to think that
    Dale Brown was the best motivator in the game.  After watching Pitino
    take a cast of misfits at UK the past couple of years, and turn them
    into one of the most exciting teams in the country...  Whew! - 'Nuff
    said!
    
    BTW Chris, I wasn't participating in the conference last December, but
    my 'Cats came extremely close to pulling a major upset at the Dean
    Dome.  Anyone who saw the game would have to admit that UK outplayed
    the 'Heels that night.  So close, yet so far!
    
    GO BIG BLUE!
     - Wildcat  
17.2150AXIS::ROBICHAUDCarolina BlueFri Oct 11 1991 09:404
    	Brother Chris, if I send you a check for $4.95 could you pick
    me up one of them ACC HANDBOOKs?
    
    				/Don
17.2151MiscellaneousRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Oct 11 1991 11:1441
    re: Wildcat
    
    Without a doubt the 'Cats *badly* outplayed Carolina last December.
    If we weren't on our home floor I'd guess the loss woulda been in
    double-digits with ease.  Keep in mind though that Dean used last
    pre-ACC schedule as a training ground, running in subs (especially in
    the 1st half) at a head-spinning pace.  He virtually handed South
    Carolina a 'W', and almost did the same against UConn (when I was
    screaming at Deano to yank Rice and sit him down for the rest of 
    his career - boy was I wrong!) and Kaintuck.  
    
    Question though: Why'd Pitino turn gutless and cancel his 7-year
    	 	     contract with UNC.  (After starting out 0-2 ...)
    
    And another question for ya:	When are you Kaintuck fans gonna
    					quit hunting through the record
    					books to try and dig up a win or
    					two more to stay ahead of
    					Carolina's relentless onslaught
    					as the nations winningest team?
    
    re: /Don
    
    For you /Don the copy is free.  All I require is a $4.95 *donation*
    to The Cause.  (Might be tax-deductible for ya.  Consult with your
    accountant first though ...)
    
    
    re: MorT
    
    Keep yer boring IU assessment in the B10 note, bub.  Gotta axe one (1)
    question though for you though:
    
    Isn't it gonna get awfully sickening watching Michigan roll in B10
    Title after B10 Title, once their super-frosh class gets a year under 
    their belt?  The heck with sending our NBA team to the 92 games, we 
    oughta just send those guys.  They might win Gold in '92, but by '96
    could probably beat Magic-and-company ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2152not surprising, consideringHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Oct 11 1991 12:046
Which is it, Chris?

First you tell MrT to take his Big10 hoops to the Big10 note and then you
ask him about Big10 hoops.

TTom
17.2153AXIS::ROBICHAUDCarolina BlueFri Oct 11 1991 12:109
17.2154ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Oct 11 1991 12:265
    >Isn't it gonna get sickening watcing Michigan blah blah blaaah...
    
    Sorry bub, but the question you axed cain't be answered in here.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.2155Somebody call the Exocist for Slasher!TNPUBS::MCCULLOUGHDr. Seuss - RIPFri Oct 11 1991 12:340
17.2156/Don or /DeanAXIS::CHAPPELCurly Q. LinkFri Oct 11 1991 12:4138
17.2157I hate it when that happensANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewFri Oct 11 1991 12:586
    >And there was /Don in sometype on perverted yoga position...
    
    Lemme axe, was he choking himself, were his eyes bulging and his
    tongue lolling and his chest heaving and gagging?
    
    MrT
17.2158That's Exorcyst...NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Oct 11 1991 13:011
    
17.2159I tried to tell youse guysCHIEFF::MACNEALruck `n' rollFri Oct 11 1991 13:050
17.2160Go for the jugularRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Oct 11 1991 13:185
    Forget about the ACC HANDBOOK, /Don.  We gotta git ya a 'Carolina Blue'
    subscription, ... and quick!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2161Blue, Baby BlueAXIS::CHAPPELCurly Q. LinkFri Oct 11 1991 13:2318
17.2162CAM::WAYParty on, GarthFri Oct 11 1991 13:4323
Chap...

Did you happen to notice if perhaps he had a tape player playing
softly in the background?

It would have sounded like this:


	Hare Smithna, Hare Smithna, Smithna Smithna, Hare Hare Smithna....

with little finger cymbals accompanying the chant?


Bob Hunt is credited with first coming across this chant, and in 
providing a partial translation.  It's not so much the words, but the
word combinations and rhythms that get across the meaning.....


You'll know /Don is really gone if he decides to walk over to the
Sitting Bull, telling passersby of the joys of the Four Corners....


'Saw
17.2163AXIS::ROBICHAUDCarolina BlueFri Oct 11 1991 13:475
    	Brother Chris, please send me the address of the Subscription
    Department for Carolina Blue so's I cain pay up before the next
    issue is out.  I feels like a new main!
    
    				/Don
17.2164Go Slasher! Whatta huh?HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Oct 11 1991 13:586
So Slasher,

Whatta you think of that Mack Brown? Too bad about all those injuries,
eh? If not for that, he'd've won that State game, don't you know?

TTom
17.2165Money better spentHPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Fri Oct 11 1991 14:014
       hey Slasher you might as well take all this dough you're going to
    spend on this junk and put it on onea those 3 legged dogs you always
    seem to pick at Hinsdale!
                                      Denny
17.2166Too BlueAXIS::CHAPPELCurly Q. LinkFri Oct 11 1991 14:0638
17.2167Tired ole refrain ...LUNER::BROOKSClarence T, are you down wit OPP ?Fri Oct 11 1991 14:2417
    MrT, I'm sorry but your Lou Holtz-style poormouthing of your heros
    doesn't wash. Plain and simple :
    
    1) IU is seen as a top 5 team.
    2) YOU said that IU had raked in a mother lode of talent two years ago.
    Time for a payoff on that talent.
    
    Now you're trying to make it seem that if IU loses, it because of a
    lack of talent/big men or too many slow white guys with no leaping
    ability. If they come up big, then you continue your verbal
    masturbation while dialing 1-976-BOB-KNIGHT ....
    
    Sorry, we ain't buyin' it.
    
    You may not be able to stand tall MrT, but you gotta make a stand....
    
    Doc
17.2168My personal guarantee: The best $37 you'll ever spend!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Oct 11 1991 15:1615
    HOW TO SUBSCRIBE TO CAROLINA BLUE!!!!!!!!
    =========================================
    
    You've got two (2) choices:
    
    1. Just dial 1-800-637-BLUE.  Have your Visa/MC ready.
    
    2. Send your subscription request to:
    
    	Carolina Blue
    	P.O. Box 669900
    	Charlotte, NC  28266-6624
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2169AXIS::ROBICHAUDCarolina BlueFri Oct 11 1991 15:384
    	Thanks Brother Chris, I got someone to bankroll the subscription
    for me just for translating french.
    
    				/Don
17.2170freebie scampi?HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Oct 11 1991 15:419
re: subscribing to Carolina Blue

What no kickback for spreading the word, Chris? Didn't lasted year or so
you pull some scam to get free issues by insidiously mailing these rags
to us unsuspecting SPORTSters? 

And in the case of Slasher, "unsuspecting" seems charitable. 

TTom
17.2171One of my better scams (not that there've been others...)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Oct 11 1991 15:5914
    re: .-1
    
    Heh heh!  Correct, TTom.  For each and every issue I snookered you
    weasels into gittin', I got an extra week added to my subscription!
    
    Normally they only allow around 4 names to be submitted (there's only
    room for that many on the form) but I sent 'em a letter saying I was 
    Prez of a Carolina Fan Club and therefore had access to *plenty* of
    names/addresses of Carolina fans!
    
    I *steel* haven't renewed my subscription!!  Haw haw!!!!!11111
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2172They don't call him ACrookedChris for nothing...NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Oct 11 1991 16:101
    
17.2173MCIS1::DHAMELRAT-TAT-TOODLE-DEY-DEYFri Oct 11 1991 16:427
    
    >          -< My personal guarantee: The best $37 you'll ever spend! >-
    
    I dunno, Soup.  $37 buys a lot of anchovie crispellis.
    
    Dickstah
    
17.2178Lotsa bird cage liner for $37... SPARKL::HILLFri Oct 11 1991 16:5010
    Now why would anyone pay $37 to subcribe to a propaganda rag like
    Snuff Weekly when you can read classic objective, well-thought out
    arguments right here in this conference? Example: "Snuff chokes on the
    big one." "Does not." "Does too." Repeat as often as necesary. Besides,
    the offer is for "Carolina Blew" which is a bird-cage liner, not for 
    that Chapel Hill Pravda that the South's newest Braves fan reads 
    faithfully.
    
    Then again, we ALL long to acheive spirtual one-ness with Dean. Perhaps
    some day I can be shown the light and can repent my evil ways...
17.2174coulda figgeredHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Oct 11 1991 16:549
>    -< My personal guarantee: The best $37 you'll ever spend! >-


Couldn't you buy Dean's book for $37

Chris is on record that procuring Dean's book is not the best use of
funds. 

TTom
17.2175X's and O's extraordinaireRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Oct 11 1991 17:0710
    Dean's book is boring and way too complicated for the average UNC fan.
    
    After a few years /Don I might recommend it, but until then study your
    Carolina Blue's and follow my party line whenever possible.  (When in
    doubt, send me p-mail *first*.)
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2176CAM::WAYParty on, GarthFri Oct 11 1991 17:1528
>    Dean's book is boring and way too complicated for the average UNC fan.
    

Hmmmm....


This is a very interesting statement.  I'm sure that my fellow Weasels
would agree with my views on this.

"The average UNC fan".  Now, this would imply then, that the average
UNC fan does not have the requisite basketball knowledge to understand
The DeanSystem(tm).

Now, from what I understand, the DeanSystem(tm) IS UNC Basketball and
UNC Basketball IS The DeanSystem.  But yet the average UNC fan doesn't
understand it.

So, what I'm getting a picture of here, is a bunch of "intellectually
challenged" South Carolinians (for the most part), sitting glassy
eyed by the basketball court, watching the Baby Blew do it.


Now, I'm beginning to understand the blind loyalty and devotion.
It's all starting to make perfect sense....


Hey, just don't drink the Kool-Aid at the DeanDome......

17.2177no brainerHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Oct 11 1991 17:218
Saw,

Intellegence challenged? Tar Heel fans (average or otherwise)?

They sit threw upteem annual choke jobs and they still think Dean is the
freakin greatest. And you still wonder about their intelligence?

TTom
17.2179Can't be much more difficult that this...SHALOT::MEDVIDI'll sail this ship aloneFri Oct 11 1991 19:0921
>    Dean's book is boring and way too complicated for the average UNC fan.
    
    See Dean.
    See Dean choke.
    Choke, Dean, choke.
    
    See Rick.
    See Rick shoot a brick.
    Shoot a brick, Rick, shoot a brick.
    
    See Mike.
    See Mike sit.
    Sit, Mike, sit.
    
    See assistant coach.
    See assistant coach hit policeman.
    Hit policeman, assistant coach, hit policeman.
    
    See the loyal fans.
    See the loyal fans make excuses.
    Make excuses, loyal fans, make excuses.
17.2181typicalHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Oct 14 1991 11:447
Acting insulted and sulking are 2 typical responses of Tar Heels when you
shift the conversation from religious testimony to anything less than
Dean-idolizing.

Good story, Hawk.

TTom
17.2182CAM::WAYParty on, GarthMon Oct 14 1991 11:5017
The thing that amazes me about the South is how slow and laid back the
style is, especially as illustrated in their speech.  After spending 
a week at a time in Greenville, SC consulting, I'd come back with the 
beginnings of a drawl firmly in place.

I've never heard of someone moving to Maine, and picking up a REAL Maine
accent, yet you can move to the South, and within a few years sound as if
you were born and raised there....


As an aside, I've been reading a book called "Blue Highways" by 
William Least Heat Moon.  Very interesting reading about a man who traveled
the boundries of the USA.  The chapters on the South (he's just getting
in Louisiana now) are very good.....


'Saw
17.2183really badHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Oct 14 1991 11:546
Saw, what do you expect from Souf Carolina. The state university fields
an athletic team by the name of "The Lady Gamecocks". Clemson? And just
in case I need to say more, Bob Hunt moved from Virginia to South
Carolina and raised the IQ of both states ;-).

TTom
17.2184High emotionsCTHQ3::LEARYBetter than LDSMon Oct 14 1991 13:0714
    Great story Hawk!!,
    A similar thing happened to me lasted weekend. I was waiting in line
    at a Dunkin Donuts and I happened to be alerted to a conversation
    of two older gentlemen in line just in front of me. My ears perked
    up when I hoid the woids "North Carolina". Seems these two gents
    were back for their 40th or so high school reunion. I happened on
    the conversation when one gentleman explained that he was a 
    professor at North Carolina State and had been for the last 15 years.
    The other gent looked at him and said " Love Tarheel basketball,then
    don't you.?"  The first gent smiled and said " Down there, people have
    been shot for that at my school."  I almost lost it.
    
    MikeL
    
17.2185October 15th is *TOMORROW*!!!! (Yeee-haaaa!!!!!)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Oct 14 1991 13:2217
    Ah, at last all you BigTVEast (tm) folk are starting to learn what ACC
    basketball is all about.  
    
    When I was growing up in Carolina (early 70's) you were one (1) of two
    (2) things: 
    
    1. Carolina fan
    2. State fan
    
    There was no such thing as a Duke fan back then, although now I'm sure
    they're flourishing.  
    
    Emotions do indeed run high.  College basketball is about as close to
    religion as SPORTS can get ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2186Brrrr ...SLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Mon Oct 14 1991 13:307
17.2187Jump on that Twinkie bandwagonCTHQ3::LEARYBetter than LDSMon Oct 14 1991 13:526
    Bob,
    Mayhaps MrT cain buy you some brie and a white hanky and get you into
    the Dome fer a Series game!!
    
    MikeL
    
17.2188Damn, it's *really* cold up hereSLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Mon Oct 14 1991 14:2116
 No such luck, Mike.   First of all, you oughtta know better.  T ain't
 gonna buy me nuthin' ... ceptin' maybe my first drink at one of his
 favorite local hangouts.   He promised me I'd get to meet Prince but you
 know his track record on promises ...  :-) :-) :-)
 
 Secondly, wouldn't you know it ... Of all the luck, this assignment allows
 me the "luxury" of flying back home to HUNTcluster headquarters over the
 weekend.   And the Series games here in Twink Country are on Saturday and
 Sunday.   Bummer.   I was all set to play some major extortion games ...
 ya know, like puttin' some nasty little buggers in their code unless they
 forked over some choice ducats.   Sigh ...
 
 Oh, well ... Just one more day until "The Road To 1-For-32" kicks off.  I
 cain't wait ...
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2189and a wheel o' brie on the sideSHALOT::MEDVIDYou cause as much sorrow deadMon Oct 14 1991 15:167
>First of all, you oughtta know better.  T ain't
> gonna buy me nuthin' ... ceptin' maybe my first drink at one of his
> favorite local hangouts.
    
    Hope you enjoy that Perrier, Bob.
    
    	--dan'l
17.2190RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOHi-OO Silver, AwaaayyyyMon Oct 14 1991 15:206
    Bob -
    
    If only I had known.  I was in Chicago, and flew through Minneapolis -
    I coulda taken some long layovers if I had known!
    
    JD
17.2191erstwhile Tar HeelsHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Oct 14 1991 15:276
There are no Duke fans. After Duke won lasted year, everybody and their
uncle started wearing Duke T shirts. I have it on good authority that
most were Tar Heel fans who felt it was better'n having to pretend to be
Wolrpackers, like they had to do after the 83 season.

TTom
17.2192FSOA::JRODOPOULOSIntl. Business SupportMon Oct 14 1991 16:5610
    TTom,
    
    I have been a Duke fan for some time now (since 1981).  You are right
    that all of a sudden everyone is wearing Duke memorabilia but that 
    happens every year.  Hell, most of these fairweather fans probably do
    not even know who Duke's mascot is.  The true fans are there when the 
    team we root for wins, but also when it loses.  
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
    A true Blue Devil Fan
17.2193maybe a fewHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Oct 14 1991 17:058
John D Cowboy,

A friend of mine actually went to Duke and it steamed his clams to see
all the Duke shirts after they won.

Blue Devil. Right?

TTom
17.2194Bobby Hurley ?????? ;*)CST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis Today?Mon Oct 14 1991 17:191
    
17.2195HPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Mon Oct 14 1991 17:482
       I've ALWAYS been a closet Debils fan!
                                     Denny
17.2196CAM::WAYParty on, GarthMon Oct 14 1991 18:0410
I've always known what the Duke mascot was, because it's the same
as CCSU where I went.

The Blue Devils.

In our Student Center, we had (probably still do) an anatomically
correct statue of a Blue Devil...and yes, it had blue ____s.....


8^)
17.2197Wanted to get this one in at 12:01amSLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Tue Oct 15 1991 17:1913
 In honor of the first officially sanctioned day of practice for college
 basketball teams, I am pleased to enter the very first official comment on
 the new season to come ...
 
                             Snuff Chokes !!!
 
 Thank you ...
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.   The ill-fated Summer Snuff Truce, which didn't last very long to
 begin with, is hereby officially and formally repealed.   Gentlemen, lock
 and load ...
17.2198AXIS::ROBICHAUDCarolina BlueTue Oct 15 1991 17:352
    	I hope y'all witnessed that my main main Chris didn't fire
    the first salvo...
17.2199CAM::WAYParty on, GarthTue Oct 15 1991 17:4719
>    	I hope y'all witnessed that my main main Chris didn't fire
>    the first salvo...

The BEST defense is a GOOD OFFENSE, Slasher, and you'll notice we ain't
talking the Four Corners here....


To quote my main man Will:

		"Into the breach, into the breach!"

and

	"And Gentlemen in England now abed
	shall hold their manhoods scarce
	when any speaks of us on Columbus Day..."


'Saw
17.2200Correct /Don, but what else is new?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Oct 15 1991 18:137
    I wonder if Virginia will beat Carolina at Chapel Hill this year, and
    pull there composite record up to 3 - 70_something?
    
    Inquiring minds ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2201CAM::WAYParty on, GarthTue Oct 15 1991 18:2611
>    I wonder if Virginia will beat Carolina at Chapel Hill this year, and
>    pull there composite record up to 3 - 70_something?
    
This is like Robert E Lee surrenduring, and saying to Grant, well,
we may have choked on the BIG ONE, but we certainly beat y'all at Bull Run...

To paraphrase Rick Blaine "Virginia and UNC ain't gonna amount to a hill
of beans"   (No offense Bob Hunt).....


'Saw
17.2202Bob > Snuffy (just check the facks)ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYClarence Thomas for PresidentTue Oct 15 1991 18:331
    
17.2203scarcity challengedHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelTue Oct 15 1991 18:3312
re: .2199

>	"And Gentlemen in England now abed
>	shall hold their manhoods scarce
>	when any speaks of us on Columbus Day..."

We best be careful about descriptions of anyone holding their manhood in
any way, even if their manhood is scarce. And certainly, letting everyone
know that their manhood is scarce would be another questionable
activity.

TTom
17.2204CAM::WAYParty on, GarthTue Oct 15 1991 18:4212
Yeah, but just think, TTom, in Will's day there weren't no such thang
as sexshul harayassment....  8^)


And MrT, to your statement about (quote) Bob > Snuffy (unquote)
I can only add a classic Phil Hartmen SNL line:

		YES!  You are RIGHT, sir!



'Saw
17.2205ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYClarence Thomas for PresidentTue Oct 15 1991 19:295
    Phil Hartmen is maybe the funniest comedic actor there is.  Cain't
    wait teal he does a movie.  I'll never forget the brilliant hatchet
    job he did on Mike Ditka when satirizing the tirade incident...
    
    MrT
17.2206Dean > BobRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Oct 15 1991 19:531
    
17.2207CAM::WAYParty on, GarthWed Oct 16 1991 00:1515
>    Phil Hartmen is maybe the funniest comedic actor there is.  Cain't
>    wait teal he does a movie.  I'll never forget the brilliant hatchet
>    job he did on Mike Ditka when satirizing the tirade incident...
    
He certainly rivals Carvey for his breadth of ability.

He makes me pee my pants when he does that Ed McMahon thing, and his
little stint as Ted Kennedy last week was great.

And who could forget the anal retentive [fill in your choice here]....


The man is too funny.

'Saw
17.2208Phil Hartmen > DeanHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Oct 16 1991 09:370
17.2210MrT *is* going to the Series. (I cain read him like a book)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Oct 16 1991 14:3314
    > 1-For-32 
    
    Sigh.  Yet again I'm forced to factually correct BobHunt.  :^(
    
    Dean's logged a total of THIRTY (30) years at Carolina.  He's heading
    into his THIRTY-FIRST (31).  
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    BTW, his 717 wins means he's *averaging* (gulp!) 23.9 wins p/ year.
    (That's alot folks.)
17.2211CAM::WAYParty on, GarthWed Oct 16 1991 14:367
>    
>    BTW, his 717 wins means he's *averaging* (gulp!) 23.9 wins p/ year.
>    (That's alot folks.)


Yes, but what profiteth a man if he racketh up wins during the regular
season, only to lose the Big Ones?
17.2212newer mathHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Oct 16 1991 14:439
Is Chris saying they're going to fire ol' Dean after this season and
there ain't gonna be no 32nd season?!??!

I guess we could be more accurate. How about 1-for-717! 

And Dean's *averaging* (gulp!) .03333 champeenship type end of season
peaks p/ (sic) year. That's not alot folks.

TTom
17.2213Why haven't you "corrected" this before ???SLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Wed Oct 16 1991 14:4614
17.2214GENRAL::WADEWed Oct 16 1991 14:514
    
    	"Gulp" is right Chris.  Are you a cuz of Dean's? :^)
    
    	Claybroon
17.2215If Dean quits tomorrow, Jeff Jones only needs 696 W's to tie!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Oct 16 1991 15:1215
    Dean's first year at UNC was 61-62.
    
    > Why haven't you corrected this before?
    
    Cause it's such an utterly ridiculous statistic in the first place
    (1-for-XX) that it hasn't been worthy of correction.  The only reason
    I've finally corrected it is that I realized it's lowerering Dean's 
    unprecidented average wins p/ year numbers, which given the quality of 
    the ACC and his non-conference schedule, is truly mind-boggling.
    
    Thanks though, for pointing out that you've been making the same mistake
    over-and-over-and-over again.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2216newer than new mathHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Oct 16 1991 15:155
>       -< If Dean quits tomorrow, Jeff Jones only needs 696 W's to tie! >-

Or 1, if you're counting rings.

TTom
17.2209ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYClarence Thomas for PresidentWed Oct 16 1991 15:1812
    I'd like to see Hartmen do a satire of BobKnight.  He could pull
    it off, mainly cuz Bob has quite a sense a humor himself.
    
    Ever notice that Dean Smif' totally lacks any humor?  The closest
    he ever came to being funny was when he had that wierd "warts-on-palms"
    frozen smile on his face as he congratulated his team's opponents with
    35 seconds to go after having giving up on them once he ruined their
    chances with 94 substitutions - but that was funny in a geeky way, not
    a humorous way.
    
    Big10 MrT(wins Win !!!)
    
17.2217CAM::WAYParty on, GarthWed Oct 16 1991 15:3517
>    Ever notice that Dean Smif' totally lacks any humor?  The closest
>    he ever came to being funny was when he had that wierd "warts-on-palms"
>    frozen smile on his face as he congratulated his team's opponents with
>    35 seconds to go after having giving up on them once he ruined their
>    chances with 94 substitutions - but that was funny in a geeky way, not
>    a humorous way.
    
It was funny in the same way that Sen. Paul Simon's earlobes are funny.
You know, kinda fat and jiggly stickin' outta the side a his haid, not
normal in a human sense of the word....


Actually, Hartmen could do a GREAT Snuffy shtick, because for some
reason, Snuffy, and that buffoon Ed McMahon remind me of each other...


'Saw
17.2218Anybody else notice Mac must have just logged on?? ;^)22359::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis Today?Wed Oct 16 1991 15:481
    
17.2219Keep on truckin', Soup ...SLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Wed Oct 16 1991 16:1218
17.2220SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Wed Oct 16 1991 17:4612
    
    	I would appreciate any news over the next month or so concerning
    Ga. Tech's freshman Travis Best from any of you that live near there.
    Here in Mass. info is slow getting to us and when it does, there isn't
    a lot of it either.
    
    	I have a special intrest in seeing how Travis makes out since I
    have followed him since he was in Jr. High while mentioning him in
    this conference over the last 3 years.
    
    							bill..g.
    
17.2221Scratching for details ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Oct 16 1991 18:1517
    Cremins had the following as his starting 5 on the first day of
    practice yesterday:
    
    o Malcolm Mackey
    o Matt Geiger
    o James Forrest
    o Jon Barry
    o Travis Best
    
    Bobby sez nothing's set in concrete yet.  Best made some general
    comment in the paper today about his being responsible for team
    chemistry.  No word on how well Best performed, although Mackey was
    impressed enough to say "I'm sure he [Best] will get a few oohs and
    aahs in here.  He knows how to run the club."
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2222Score one for Soup ... Snuff didn't choke in 1961SLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Wed Oct 16 1991 18:3119
17.2223Apology accepted.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Oct 16 1991 18:495
    No problemo, Ketch.  I'm starting to get used to your factual errors
    ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2224RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOThe Sons of Katie ElderWed Oct 16 1991 19:163
    How come it took so darn long for Soup to find this 'error'??
    
    JD
17.2225ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYClarence Thomas for PresidentWed Oct 16 1991 19:2626
    >I'm starting to get used to your factual errors...             
    
    Sorry, Crispmeister, but common law dictates that you are in no
    position to say "your error" on this.  You not only acknowledge
    this mistaken datum but actively recognized by speaking of it over
    a long period a time as if it were indeed accurate, and compounded
    your complicity in this mistake by actually *using* the 1-for-31
    ratio in your calculations.
    
    In other words, you didn't know what in the holy hell you were talking
    about, which was much worse for you than us given your self-proclaimed
    status as the Star Hell expert in here.
    
    But, in fairness to you, I should point out that your knowledge a early
    Star Hell history is limited by the fack that you are a Johnny-come-lately
    only relatively recently after your college filed bankruptcy and you 
    morosely migrated south and, looking about for a bandwagon to mount,
    mistook Chapel Hell as the sure winner to mooch glory off of.
    
    If only you'd noticed that rotten fish smell.
    
    Big10 Tom
    
    ps, NCSU and UNC are tied at 2-2 for Titles.  While I aim sure that you
    place no special value on reaching The Summit, I'll lay 20-1 that NCSU
    recruiters point that out to recruits as a powerful incentive.  
17.2226MrT: Convicted Liar.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Oct 16 1991 20:5050
> *using* the 1-for-31 ratio in your calculations.

What calculations?  Show me where I *ever* used "1-for-31" in a note,
or even implied that Dean had completed 32 years of coaching.  You can't,
cause I haven't.

The truth is I've effectively ignored every reference to this statistic
because it's utterly and completely intellectually bankrupt.  I just 
read where Jeff Jones sez he woulda considered last years team a success
if they could've reached the Sweet 16.  Imagine that - a successful season
when you don't win a Title.  What a concept!  
    
    
> But, in fairness to you, I should point out that your knowledge a early
> Star Hell history is limited by the fack that you are a Johnny-come-lately
> only relatively recently after your college filed bankruptcy and you 
> morosely migrated south and, looking about for a bandwagon to mount,
> mistook Chapel Hell as the sure winner to mooch glory off of.

Don't let facts stand in your way MorT.  Your association with my migration
south and becoming a Tar Heel fan is downright foolish, since the origins
of The Contest itself stem from my move.  (Rightfully, *I* shoulda been
sitting next to Johnny Most in the Gahden to watch JR Reid battle the C's.)
For the record, I've been a Carolina fan since I was old enough to understand
the game, which was around 1972.  George Karl, Bob McAdoo, Bobby Jones.
These were my boyhood heros.  It was only as I matured and began to figure
out the man behind these great players that Dean took front-and-center
stage as my Hero and Mentor.

> While I aim sure that you place no special value on reaching The Summit, 
> I'll lay 20-1 that NCSU recruiters point that out to recruits as a 
> powerful incentive.  

If the only thing NCSU, UVa, Maryland, Duke, and Ga Tech (our traditional 
recruiting rivals) do is point out we've only won 1 Title under Dean,
I'd be pleasantly surprised.  The reality is they more-often-than-not
bad mouf Dean in every way imaginable.  It's a credit to Dean that he
takes the high road in the recruiting battles.  He won't bad-mouth the
opposition.  He flat-out tells kids not to even bother if they don't plan
on getting an education.  He will not promise playing time.  

The big issue now is how hard schools are using Dean's age and eventual
retirement to woe kids away from Chapel Hill.  Right now we're doing battle
primarily with UVa for a 6-9 kid from Norfolk (Ed Geth).  Should be
interesting to see if Jeff Jones has more success keeping Virginians away
from UNC than his predecessor!  (By rights, we should get this kid, cause
UVa just signed up two 6-8 studs last year and we need PF's *bad*.)


- ACC Chris
17.2227Please, Pete, ref a game in the Dean Dome this year. PLEASE!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Oct 16 1991 22:0524
    Fred Barakat, the mucho-respected Assistant Commissioner for the ACC 
    and Supervisor of Officials, had the following to say about Dean Smith
    being ejected in the NCAA semifinals by non-ACC ref Pete Pavia:
    
    "By the rules the offical was correct.  But I don't think realistically
     speaking it was the thing to do.  I thought it could have been handled
     in another way.  He probably could have talked Coach Smith back into
     the box and we encourage that to happen.
    
     I have said this to Pete.  He probably could have handled it another
     way.  However, he probably was stretched himself.  You don't know
     until you're in it yourself.  If he was, he had to make his own
     decision.
    
    [This comment could either indicate stress from the game, or from 
     Pavia's cancer, which Barakat mentions elsewhere in the article.]
    
     We try to communicate the time to the coach rather than have him ask
     how much time is left (for the substitution).  We would communicate
     that ahead of time.  If he strays out of the box, we would try to get
     him back in."
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2228This is gonna be a *great* seasonSLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Wed Oct 16 1991 22:1245
17.2229Exagerrated importance on a handful of games ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Oct 16 1991 22:4331
> My dear boy, "1-For-30" is *NOT* a statistic.   It is a documented,
> on-the-record, in-the-books *FACT*.   

Just so I understand then, is Terry Pendleton's .319 NL Batting Title
a "Fact" or a "Statistic"?  Is Roger Maris' 61 HR's in a season a "Fact"
or a "Statistic"?  Is Dean Smith's 23.9 wins p/ year a "Fact" or a 
"Statistic"?  Color me confused ...

 
> You think his loaves don't stink ... I think he chokes tighter than a 
> gnat's butt.

Not so fast there, Ketch.  *YOU* think he's "Great".  That's a matter of
public record.  (Call it a "Fact" if_n ya want.)  
 
    
> To be fair, Snuff has had a few teams that saw their season end about 
> where it should have somewhere short of the title.   

    While we're being fair_an_all, here's a question.  If Dean's win total
    were 719 right now instead of 717, and those two (2) wins were against 
    Marquette in the '77 Finals and Bob in the '81 Finals, ... what would 
    you think of Dean as a coach?  Would he suddenly be vaulted above even 
    your "Great" label?  Would he be next to Wooden, or Rupp?  Would he be 
    above, below, or alongside Bob?

    Curiously yours,


    - ACC Chris
    
17.2230RAVEN1::B_ADAMSIt's about time Richard!Thu Oct 17 1991 00:006
    re-3,
    
    	Must have been a Clems..oops...a Non-ACC ref.
    
    B.A.
    
17.2231HPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Thu Oct 17 1991 10:217
re: .2227
    >    "By the rules the offical was correct.
    
       Out of all 24 lines in the note, it really comes down to these 7
    words. All the perfume in the world caint make the stink go away.
    The snuffer lost it, plain and simple.
                                        Denny
17.2232overplaying the handHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Oct 17 1991 11:3442
Since we're all jumping in here...

>> While I aim sure that you place no special value on reaching The Summit, 
>> I'll lay 20-1 that NCSU recruiters point that out to recruits as a 
>> powerful incentive.  
>
>If the only thing NCSU, UVa, Maryland, Duke, and Ga Tech (our traditional 
>recruiting rivals) do is point out we've only won 1 Title under Dean,
>I'd be pleasantly surprised.  The reality is they more-often-than-not
>bad mouf Dean in every way imaginable.  It's a credit to Dean that he
>takes the high road in the recruiting battles.  He won't bad-mouth the
>opposition.  He flat-out tells kids not to even bother if they don't plan
>on getting an education.  He will not promise playing time.  

Chris, you shoulda stuck with the opinion about being surprised. That's
fair. Your representation of "reality" is not only unfair but inaccurate.

First of all, in reference to Dean, he's just like most everyone else. If
he likes you he speaks well of you. If he doesn't like you, he lets
everyone know. Just listen to the man and you can tell he liked Valvano
and doesn't care much for Coach K. Is this bad-mouthing? Could be. Could
be considered slurs as well. In any case it ain't no holier than thoul.

Secondly, you're plain wrong about what other coaches say about Dean. You
have to go back to Norm Sloan for this. Also, if you go back that far and
check out what Dean was saying, it wasn't kind to Norm.

From the record, Valvano liked Dean. His approach to recruiting against
Dean was indeed promises to play and a lot about how the program would
allow the individual to show his stuff. The current coach Robinson is a
much different sort that Valvano both in style and in terms of personal
respect. But his is a class act and hardly the type to bad mouth anyone
much less Dean, for whom I assume he has a great deal of respect.

Now is this true of the alumni and fans of these schools? Hell no. We bad
mouth Dean whenever we have a chance and to he and the Tar Heels have
provided a lot of material to work with. Personally, the Kansas loss
lasted year will be hard to top.

Chris, you missed the mark badly, here.

TTom
17.2233Stats 101 was a bitchSLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Thu Oct 17 1991 13:1654
17.2234We cain refer to it as the "9/10s" SolutionANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYClarence Thomas for PresidentThu Oct 17 1991 13:286
    Pascal Hunt viciously - but competently -  slam-dunks poor ACCrisp's 
    confused carcass on play 101.  Poor Crisp's bod sustains contusions
    and lacerations on the way down down down to the hardwood.  Crowd
    cheers.  No, check that: Crowd jeers.
    
    MrT 
17.2235Almost forget *THE* fact ...SLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Thu Oct 17 1991 13:506
 And in case any confusion still remains ... 
 
 Winning just 1 NCAA title in 30 seasons is a *FACT*.    IgKnorr it at your
 own intellectual risk.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2236SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Thu Oct 17 1991 14:1012
    
    
    	re: Chris
    
    	Chris, thanks for the info on Travis Best.  I know how much you
    like NC, but if you could enter in any blurbs on Travis, I would
    appreciate it.  My hopes are that he will be able to step in a do
    a decent job seeing that he is a local kid with a good head on his
    shoulders.
    
    							bill..g.
    
17.2237A ray of sunshine snuck amidst bills & junk mail!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 17 1991 15:247
    Good news, /Don.  Carolina Blue arrived today (I go home for lunch) and
    is chalk_full of great articles.  Feature this week on Brian Reese,
    with the storyline reading that he 'Learned Alot by Watching Rick Fox
    Last Year'.  Assuming you got yer subscription rolling, enjoy!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2238Couldn't resist...RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOAvery ROOLZThu Oct 17 1991 15:486
    IS the subtitle for the Reese article:
    
      "TarHell(tm) Spent Summer Working as Mason"
    
    
    JD
17.2239He cain't strut his chest about this faux pasANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYClarence Thomas for PresidentThu Oct 17 1991 16:047
    >is chalk_full of blah blah blaaah
    
    Is this a new term, such as being full of white dust waste left over
    from wiped-out plans of action, or did you really mean to say "chock
    full?"
    
    MrT
17.2240AXIS::ROBICHAUDDoin' the Tomahawk ChopThu Oct 17 1991 17:184
    	Brother Chris, you would absolutely love the article written
    by Bob Ryan in today's Globe about Rick Fox.  I'll send it to you.
    
    				/Don
17.2241Send me that article ASAP, bro /Don.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 17 1991 17:3911
    Thanks /Don.  Much appreciated.
    
    I'm about to break this whole Dean Smith debate *wide* open by bringing
    in a wholly neutral and objective observer.  This person is a C's fan
    who has a few things to say about Fox and the kind of development
    he received playing at Dean U.  
    
    Brace yerself, weasels!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2242FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu Oct 17 1991 17:516
    Chris, why bother?  All that will happen then is that you'll get the
    argument of "Dean does such a great job developing these guys so why
    has North Carolina only won 1 National Championship while he's been in
    charge?"
    
    John
17.2243/Don, maybe you should post the Ryan article in here.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 17 1991 18:1415
    > Chris, why bother?
    
    Cause Dean stresses player development ahead of Title accumulation,
    that's why.  If that were not the case he would've let Jordan shoot the
    ball 30 times a game for three (3) straight seasons.
    
    It's also important cause a certain well-known noter has recently
    insinuated that Dean does a poor job teaching fundamentals.  Wholly
    false of course, and my surprise witness will testify toward that
    fact.
    
    Now where is he, anyways???
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2244ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYClarence Thomas for PresidentThu Oct 17 1991 18:5621
    >Cause Dean stresses player development ahead of Title accumulation
    
    This is the biggest Crock o' Bull ever in the annals a sports.  
    
    Here we have the craven Crockmeister, so busy at excuse-manufacturing
    and spin-control that he has made the final, lowest possible stoop to
    argue that Snuffy going into all those games with Title implications
    actually put player development up as a higher priority than mere
    "Title accumulation."
    
    Haw haw haw !!  
    
    Hey, Crock-o-holic, read this and knit those furrowed brows some more:
    
    		You develop players in order to win Titles.  If they
    	        ain't developed and in synch and all put together by
     	        Title Time then the coaching was botched to begin with!
    
    HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ha ha heeee eeeeeeee eeeeeeee eeeeeee eeeeeeee !!!
    
    MrT
17.2245Mystery guest, enter and sign in please!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 17 1991 19:0920
		**** POSTED WITH AUTHORS PERMISSION ***
    
    
        <<< OOBIE::OOBIE$DKB300:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BOSTON_CELTICS.NOTE;1 >>>
                              -< BOSTON_CELTICS >-
================================================================================
Note 19.15                    Rick Fox "The Rookie"                     15 of 15
LEVERS::BATTERSBY "It won't be long now ;)..."        8 lines  17-OCT-1991 12:33
       -< The kid has poise...& the reg season will be da acid test ;) >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Dean Smith approach seems to have prepared Fox for the NBA 
    better than other NBA team scouts thought. Somehow I have this feeling
    that Red Auerbach <and who ever else in the C's brass who also had a
    say> is/are gonna come out smelling like a rose on the Fox pick.
    Fox was quoted in todays Globe as saying he wouldn't be in Boston
    if it hadn't been for playing under Smith's mentoring.
    
    Bob

    
17.2246ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYClarence Thomas for PresidentThu Oct 17 1991 19:167
    >Now where is he, anyways???
    
    Been wondering the same thing myself.  He was supposed to git with
    me, but he's gone incognito.  Must be up to his elbows on that 3M
    project...
    
    MrT
17.2247So he likes Fox ... Ask him about ReidSLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Thu Oct 17 1991 21:0038
17.2248DYPSS1::ROPERBillyMartin,WoodyHayes,BobKnightFri Oct 18 1991 01:2935
    Just purchased PETERSEN'S '91-'92 COLLEGE BASKETBALL  mag.  In it, they
    rated the better known coaches.  Here is their opinion of Dean Smith. 
    BTW, I almost died laughing while reading this.  I thought for sure
    that Bob Hunt had authored this!
    
    COACH WITH THE MOST BORING RECORD IN SPORTS:
    Dean Smith, North Carolina
    
         Is it just us, or are Smith's annual 20-victory seasons becoming
    monotonous journeys to nowhere?
    
         We're sick of the adoring masses who worship at the altar of
    Smith's conservative offensive system and who believe he's the most
    sainted man this side of John Wooden.  Lest we forget, Smith once
    signed Bob McAdoo as a junior college transfer--a terrible sin, by
    Smith's own gospel.  A far worse trespass: Smith never fully tapped
    Michael Jordan's joyous talents.
    
         We wonder, also, if Smith would've been such a squeaky-clean guy
    if he hadn't developed an early powerhouse in Chapel Hill that became
    about as difficult to sell as Madonna records.
    
         In any case, it was certainly fun last spring to watch Smith get
    ejected from an NCAA Final Four game for asking referee Pete Pavia that
    now infamous question.  "Pete, how much time do I have?"  Never, ever,
    was St. Dean treated in such a roughshod manner.  Tsk, tsk.
    
         It's time to set things straight.  Smith did not invent man-to-man
    defense, and he twice failed to win a title with a team that had Jordan
    and Sam Perkins.  Despite his solid-citizen players, his 47 NCAA
    victories and the arena named after him, Smith is no Wooden.
    
    HTH,
    
    Wildcat
17.2249DYPSS1::ROPERBillyMartin,WoodyHayes,BobKnightFri Oct 18 1991 01:3836
    Comments on Roy Williams from PETERSEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL.
    
    MOST ORIGINAL COPYCAT:
    Roy Williams, Kansas
    
         When Roy Williams was a student at North Carolina, he attended
    Dean Smith's practices and took notes.  Legend has it he still refers
    to them in the privacy of his den.
    
         As recently as five years ago, Williams, then an assistant to
    Smith, would drive a 504-mile circuit each Sunday morning to deliver
    tapes of the Dean Smith Show to such far-flung places as Raleigh,
    Greensboro and Asheville.
    
         So it should come as no surprise to anybody that Williams' Kansas
    team plays a tough man-to-man defense or that the Jayhawks board buses
    dressed in suits and ties.  This is the Smith way, and it's the
    Williams way.
    
         But here's a twist her, one that Temple coach John Chaney noticed
    last season.  "Kansas," Chaney says, "runs North Carolina's offense
    better than North Carolina does."
    
         It's true for two reasons:
    Williams is more innovative than Smith in his passing patterns and more
    daring in his shot selection.  The result has been a record of 76-25
    over three seasons and college basketball the way it ought to
    be--purposeful but fast-paced.
    
         "We have different personnel, so there are a few changes in the
    system to fit the personnel on the team," says Williams, reflecting on
    his Carolina roots.
    
         At Lawrence, Kansas, the changes have been for the better. 
    
     - Wildcat
17.2250No time to enjoy Braves 'W' :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Oct 18 1991 12:2098
> We're sick of the adoring masses who worship at the altar of
> Smith's conservative offensive system and who believe he's the most
> sainted man this side of John Wooden.  

Smith's "conservative" system routinely is one of the leading offensive
teams in the country.  It also takes a higher-than-normal number of 
3-point shots.  But let's be serious here - this guy doesn't want to
talk technical tactics - he wants to bash Dean.


> Lest we forget, Smith once signed Bob McAdoo as a junior college 
> transfer--a terrible sin, by Smith's own gospel.  A far worse trespass: 
> Smith never fully tapped Michael Jordan's joyous talents.

Apparently this guy is trying to point out hypocrisy in Dean's approach.
What he fails to understand is that Dean wasn't nearly so rigid in his
anti-JUCO "gospel" (which is really just a preference on his part - he'd
rather have a kid for a full 4 years) at the time McAdoo was signed.  He 
also fails to understand that Mac was a very unique situation.  He was 
attending Junior College in North Carolina and wanted to attend UNC very 
badly.  

As to failing to tap Jordan's potential all I can say is, ask Michael about
his unfullfilled years at UNC.  He oughta know better than anybody how
shackled he was.  [Hint: Mike gives Dean mega-credit for his development.]

    
> We wonder, also, if Smith would've been such a squeaky-clean guy
> if he hadn't developed an early powerhouse in Chapel Hill that became
> about as difficult to sell as Madonna records.

If this bozo would check his facts, he'd find that Dean most definitely
did *NOT* develop an early powerhouse in Chapel Hill.  He struggled for
several years, and was even hung in efigy by the students after a road
'L' at Wake.  

I suppose though that the author would have Dean apologize for eventually
building the most successful college basketball in the program.
Yup, Dean did it all wrong.  How *dare* he play by the rules and build a
program of integrity and quality that kids would actually want to attend
without being made promises that can't possible be kept, given a mutual 
understanding that academics are of low-priority, or having cash sent
to them via overnight mail.  For shame!

    
> In any case, it was certainly fun last spring to watch Smith get
> ejected from an NCAA Final Four game for asking referee Pete Pavia that
> now infamous question.  "Pete, how much time do I have?"  Never, ever,
> was St. Dean treated in such a roughshod manner.  Tsk, tsk.

I'm sure it was fun to watch for someone who obviously loathes Dean.  
Just the tone of the way this guy writes strips him of credibility.
You're right about one thing though Wildcat - this does sound like something
BobHunt would write.  I would've hoped though that a national magazine
would offer something a little more credible.

    
> It's time to set things straight.  Smith did not invent man-to-man
> defense, 

Whoever said he did?!


> and he twice failed to win a title with a team that had Jordan
> and Sam Perkins.  

And Virginia failed to win a Title four (4) times with Ralph Sampson.  And
Georgetown failed to win three (3) Titles with Patrick Ewing.  And on and
on and on.  


> Despite his solid-citizen players, his 47 NCAA victories and the arena 
> named after him, Smith is no Wooden.

I don't know of many people who put Smith in the same category as Wooden.
I certainly never have.  Interesting though how "solid-citizen players" are
lumped in with having an arena named after him, as if the two (2) things are
somehow related to each other.  It highlights the relative lack of importance
this Dean-hater puts on integrity.  What could be *more* important from
a true college athletics standpoint than turning out solid-citizen players??
ISN'T THAT THE POINT OF THE WHOLE THING?!

It saddens me greatly to read articles like this that so blatently put
the complete emphasis on Winning.  The guy basically makes a joke out of 
Dean's integrity, even going so far as to suggest Dean really *isn't*
a man of integrity - he just walked into a golden situation because well, 
he built a program with so much integrity!

I'm sure this same magazine, somewhere within its covers, is also moaning 
and groaning about the poor academics of college basketball players, the poor 
graduation rates, the lack of priorities in college athletics, the cheating,
the payoffs, the illegal alumni involvement.  I'm sure they've also cited
coaches like Tark for being great coaches - despite graduation rates that
border on the criminal.  


- ACC Chris
    
17.2251Beautiful, simply beautiful ...SLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Fri Oct 18 1991 12:3510
 Thank you, 'Cat.   Thank you very very much.   Thigh shuddery at its
 finest.    Confirms almost every thing we've ever said in here with an
 oh-so-sweet and delicious taste.   Cheers.
 
 And now Soup is backpedaling faster than Fred Flintstone's well-calloused
 feet.   Cain't think of a nicer way to end an interesting week.
 
 T, are you laying on your right side ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2252CAM::WAYParty on, GarthFri Oct 18 1991 12:4518
> And now Soup is backpedaling faster than Fred Flintstone's well-calloused
> feet.   Cain't think of a nicer way to end an interesting week.


Speaking of Fred's feet, didn't ya just love that sound effect they'd
use.

It's the same one the little baby in the walker thingie makes when he
runs around the carpeted room knocking all kinds of sh_t onto the carpet...



And that review of the Snuffmeister was orgasmic.  I couldn't contain myself,
had no time to roll on my right side or grab the Brawny.  The old
Wabash cannonball was coming for the trestle....

T, hope you had time to get the Brawny....

17.2253Got the 'Letter to the Editor' address, Wildcat?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Oct 18 1991 12:508
    > backpeddling
    
    I haven't backpeddled a single millimeter.  Face it, I'm more than well
    equipped to deal with the Peterson's author.  After all, I've been
    answering the identical rantings for close to five (5) years now!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2254Hare-Deana, Hare-Deana, Hare, hare, hare...RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOCaulking the CucumberFri Oct 18 1991 13:2119
    I love it.  Absolutely love it.  At least weekly, we are subjected to
    Soup citing some comment by someone (see the comment this week from the
    FSU coach) praising Dean.  In the Book of Soup, this is Gospel.  We
    have Soup going woodward over Bob Ryan Articles in the Boston Globe on
    Rick Fox.  Again, this is sacred scripture in the Book of Soup.
    
    But, when we have quotes from a respectable college preview magazine,
    Soup goes haywire.  These comments are blasphemous in the Eyes of Soup.
    He lashes out.  He questions credibility.   
    
    And if he does write a letter to the editor, he will reinforce one of
    the author's intents - the adoring masses who see no wrong with Dean. 
    Who worship at the alter of Dean.   The automatic defense knee-jerk
    reaction is fantastic to watch.  Soup mumbles the mantra of the
    Dean-o-phile in perfect fashion.  And he used Speech #5 - which is the
    speech where the God of Basketball, Mike Jordan, is mentioned.  I love
    it.
    
    JD
17.2255ACC Chris + MrT = Smoke, Heat, and absolutly not LightANGLIN::KIRKMANWhat a WONDERFUL honeymoonFri Oct 18 1991 13:233
    > answering the identical rantings for close to five (5) years now!
    
    Your answers sound a lot like rantings to me. ;-)
17.2256Multiple orgasmsSLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Fri Oct 18 1991 13:579
 Let us also not forget that not only did this esteemed national magazine
 substantiate our long-held beliefs about The Rev but it also went on to
 validate our quite astute and deadly accurate evaluation of Roy Williams.
 
 Victories in this forum in this note don't come much sweeter or much more
 complete than this one.   Thank you once again, Wildcat, for entering
 those comments.  Tastes great.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2257ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Oct 18 1991 14:5827
    >the nation's most successful program.
    
    The "most" in "most successful" implies top-level achievement.  Yet,
    we're looking at 1-30.  Also, given that Snuffy attained "excellent"
    status after "several years" at Chapel Hell, this would leave him
    with 20-25 years as a automatic TV (and therefore recruiting) draw,
    which in turn makes it a helluva lot easier for him to abstain from 
    the crookery many programs engage in trying to bust in to the elite
    program ranks.
    
    >Solid Citizen players...
    
    Moralism is always a relative thing, but I for one must draw the line
    at woman-beating, referee-attacking, and rumbling with policemen. And
    if we're talking Snuffy's ethos let's keep in mind his tolerance of
    such behavior where star players are involved, as compared to, say,
    BobKnight, who has several times gotten rid of key players for far
    lesser crimes...
    
    Worst crime?  (Don't you *love* using the USA Today's brain-daid style
    sheet?)  Worst crime?  94 substitutions against Kansas.  Incompetence
    at its most wretched.  Worst choke-job?  Leaving the game plan in Rick
    Fox's bricklaying hands and allowing the talented George Lynch to go
    to the pine whenever he looked like he was bold enough to grab the bull
    (i.e., Snuffy's bullsheet game coaching) by the horns and seize fate.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.2258DYPSS1::ROPERBillyMartin,WoodyHayes,BobKnightFri Oct 18 1991 15:1724
    ACC Chris, here is the info you requested.
    
    Article written by Filip Bondy
    
    PETERSEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL
    Petersen Publishing Company
    8490 Sunset Blvd.
    Los Angeles, CA 90069
    (213) 854-2222
    
    Editor : Russell R. Holster Jr.
    
    BTW, this article also had comments on the following coaches:
    
    Rick Pitino
    John Thompson
    Tom Penders
    Jim Boeheim
    Jerry Tarkanian
    Bob Knight
    Pete Carill
    Mike Krzyzewski
    
     - Wildcat
17.2259Tanks, Wildcat.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Oct 18 1991 15:201
    
17.2260Congratulations on the Braves ... Looked like funSLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Fri Oct 18 1991 16:5253
17.2261Fack meets fantasy; ACCrock crushedANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Oct 18 1991 17:1322
    They say that politics makes for strange bedfellows, but the same 
    cain be said for scientific-objectivism in sports analysis.  
    
    Think a it, think a all the types who have allied for this common
    cause: Almost Close folk teamed up with a gaggle a Big8 and Big
    Least souls hooked in with a Big10 Bigot and other Big10 types,
    all fortified by the good offices a a U. Kaintuck Mildcat.
    
    What brings this burly, diverse group together?
    
    The search for Truth.  The quest to keep the Game from being 
    besmirched by the ugly stain of mediocrity posing as Greatness.
    
    For the good a us all...
    
    Who's left out in all a this?
    
    ACCrisp - but you cain igKnorr *him*.
    
    Haw haw haw haaa....
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom
17.2262Whither Big Zero and Slasher, too ???SLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Fri Oct 18 1991 17:3017
 Whatever happened to the "Big O" ???    Good ol' "Raving Blue" tested the
 hot waters in here and then skeedaddled back to dry ground in a huge
 hurry, didn't he ???
 
 And what about our erstwhile pal, the ol' Slasheroo ???    I notice that
 our newest Baby Blue Convert has been strangely silent this fine fine day.  
 
 Could it be that the troof hath rendered him silent ???   Could it be that
 ol /Don has seen the error of his ways and is now firing up his SPORTS
 shredder to destroy the evidence of his doomed decision ???
 
 Could it be he was just snookering poor Soup all along with a MrT-style
 "college prank" faux fling with Heel Hysteria ???
 
 We gots to know ...
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2263heard tellHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Oct 18 1991 17:434
Rumor has it that Slasher has gone all the way with his Knorry Chrisna
and has applied for a job as designated sycophant for the Carolina Blue.

TTom
17.2264Shred thisAXIS::ROBICHAUDCarolina BlueFri Oct 18 1991 17:491
    
17.2265CNTROL::MACNEALruck `n' rollFri Oct 18 1991 17:495
17.2266ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Oct 18 1991 17:538
    Anybody notice the pattern with Crock's "allies?"  
    
    They tend to be not a little nutty, even addled.  They also tend,
    like the erstwhile Slasher, highly unreliable.
    
    Why is this?  Isn't the answer rather obvious?  [yes]
    
    MrT
17.2267At the airport lately?GEMVAX::HILLFri Oct 18 1991 17:554
    I dunno 'bout cults, but I was at the airport and I saw these guys
    dancing around in POWDER BLUE sheets, singing praises to the Almighty
    Enlightened One, hare Smif-ra. They even had a mural made of flowers in
    the likeness of Dean "God" Himself. Slashmeister, were you there?
17.2268The man cracks me up!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Oct 23 1991 18:3311
    How dare MrT say Dean ain't got a sense of humor.  This weeks Carolina 
    Blue came today and Smith was axed who his backup PG was gonna be. 
    (The question keeping us Carolina fans awake at night ...)
    
    Dean chastised the reporter for assuming that the starting job has 
    already been given to Derrick Phelps!
    
    HAW HAW HAW!!!!!   
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2269cracks me up tooANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJane &amp; Ted's Bogus AdventureWed Oct 23 1991 19:185
    Re 1 
    
    HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    MrT(WINs !!)
17.2270CAM::WAYGo Wahoos!Thu Oct 24 1991 09:304
Next on Live At the Improv:


	DeanSystem(tm) Smif
17.2271ACC continues to dominate in USA PG signingsRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 24 1991 12:0422
    Kudos to Gary Williams at Maryland, who just inked top-notch DeMatha PG
    Duane Simpkins.  
    
    The ACC seems to have turned into a haven for point guards.  Last year 
    the two (2) most highly acclaimed point guards signed with Virginia (Cory 
    Alexander) and Georgia Tech (Travis Best).  The year before Carolina 
    signed Derrick Phelps, and Duke got Kenny Blakeney.  
    
    Last years PG's who have moved on from the ACC include:
    
    o John Crotty
    o King Rice
    o Kenny Anderson
    o Chris Corchiani
    
    While the point guards this year figure to be down a notch from last years
    perhaps best-ever class, it appears the stables are full for the ACC to
    continue to attract the best hoops quarterbacks in the USA.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.2272CAM::WAYGo Wahoos!Thu Oct 24 1991 12:3011
GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS!
GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! 
GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! 
GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! 
GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! 
GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! 
GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! 
GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! GO WAHOOS! 


How'm I doin' Bob?
17.2273More cheers ...SLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Thu Oct 24 1991 14:0819
 Outstanding, 'Saw, outstanding.
 
 Now here are a few more for you to try ...
 
 SIT DOWN, DEAN !!!  SIT DOWN, DEAN !!!  SIT DOWN, DEAN !!!
 SIT DOWN, DEAN !!!  SIT DOWN, DEAN !!!  SIT DOWN, DEAN !!!
 SIT DOWN, DEAN !!!  SIT DOWN, DEAN !!!  SIT DOWN, DEAN !!!
 
 GO TO HELL, CAROLINA, GO TO HELL !!!   GO TO HELL, CAROLINA, GO TO HELL !!!
 GO TO HELL, CAROLINA, GO TO HELL !!!   GO TO HELL, CAROLINA, GO TO HELL !!!
 GO TO HELL, CAROLINA, GO TO HELL !!!   GO TO HELL, CAROLINA, GO TO HELL !!!
 
 CAROLINA REF !!!  CAROLINA REF !!!  CAROLINA REF !!!  CAROLINA REF !!!
 CAROLINA REF !!!  CAROLINA REF !!!  CAROLINA REF !!!  CAROLINA REF !!!
 CAROLINA REF !!!  CAROLINA REF !!!  CAROLINA REF !!!  CAROLINA REF !!!
 
 I'll key in the "Gool Ol' Song" later ...
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2274CAM::WAYGo Wahoos!Thu Oct 24 1991 14:1215
17.2275You two swappin' spit yet?AXIS::ROBICHAUDSmith &gt; KnightThu Oct 24 1991 14:221
    
17.2276Wahoo dis 8^)CTHQ3::LEARYBetter than LDSThu Oct 24 1991 14:355
    Has anyone ever seen 'Saw and Bob Hunt in the same room at the same
    time?
    
    MikeL
    
17.2277I'm sure that ACC CHris will correct me if I'm wrongCST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis Today?Thu Oct 24 1991 14:5314
    'Saw,
    
    regarding TV and the "song", while I'm not certain that this is the
    
    first time  UNC will be on teevee, I know that on 12/4 @9:00 (ESPN)
    
    they will be playing JoSH's team.
    
    Oh, BTW, if ya wanna do a road trip to sing it in person, they will
    
    be playing in New Joisey.  Mebbe JoSH has a extra room?
    
    Kev
    
17.2278More solid, objective, and entertaining hoops info ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 24 1991 15:1832
    Yup, Seton Hall has a home game against Carolina at 9:00pm on
    Wednesday, December 4th.  It's the 2nd half of the BigEast/ACC
    doubleheader.  (Maryland vs. PC at 7pm, also on ESPN, also in E.
    Rutherford.)  I'd look for Seton Hall to be a solid favorite in
    this game, BTW.  
    
    In other recruiting news, UNC is battling Virginia for the services of
    6-9 C/BF Ed Geth, who's from Norfolk (Va).  He's also considering
    Villanova, but the word is UVa and UNC are the favorites.
    
    This is the first time in a *long* time that Dean hasn't matched up
    with Terry Holland when battling Virginia on the recruiting front.  (We
    know how well Terry did against Dean both on the hardcourt and on the
    recruiting front.  Hint Saw: Your new adopted alma mater gets a couple
    of "L's" in both categories.  Heh heh!!)
    
    Anyway Jeff Jones is proving to be a whale_of_a recruiter, and I've no
    doubt he'll be pounding away on Geth, telling him 'bout Dean's eventual
    retirement, Carolina's "restrictive" System, Dean's lack of sense of
    humor, Dean's "whining", Dean's battle with nicotine, and anything else
    he can think of.  Meanwhile we'll take the high road, urging Geth to
    objectively evaluate the situation and grade each school on their
    concrete merits.
    
    By rights, we should get this kid.  Virginia reloaded in the power
    positions last year, and we need a PF *bad*.  Probably should know
    during the November signing period ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
17.2279RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JODon't quit the day job...Thu Oct 24 1991 15:378
    Now Chris - why is Seton Hall a 'solid' favorite????   Solid usually
    means that barring an upset, said team would win.  Now, I wouldn't
    consider UNC beating Seton Hall a_upset of biblical proportions.
    
    Or is just the usual set-up from you - the one where it's a 'great win
    by great coaching' or a 'excellent loss, to be expected....'
    
    JD
17.2280Should be fun watching huge Montross battle enormous WrightRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 24 1991 15:4614
    re: JD
    
    I wouldn't consider UNC beating Seton Hall "a_upset of biblical
    proportions" either, but I give them a significant edge because they
    enjoy the home court advantage.  While I'd say both teams might be
    fairly close overall, Seton Hall also has an experience edge.  (They
    lost 2 starters, we lost 3, and the people stepping in for the departing
    Avent and Oliver have more experience than those replacing Fox,
    Chilcutt, and Rice.)
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2281STAR::YANKOWSKASThis *IS* my day job...Thu Oct 24 1991 15:519
    re .2278, .2279:
    
    Most preseason polls/predictions I've seen put Seton Hall in the top
    10-12 nationally, and first or second in the Big East.  Given that the
    Pirates will be at home, yes they should be favored (though it wouldn't
    be a tremendous upset if Carolina won).             
    
                                         
    py
17.2282RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JODon't quit the day job...Thu Oct 24 1991 16:177
    Paul -
    
    Yep - but UNC is ranked #2 in the ACC, and in the top 5 in most polls -
    so I'd say it is about even.  Does the hall play all its home games at
    the Meadowlands?  Or just big games?
    
    JD
17.2283CAM::WAYGo Wahoos!Thu Oct 24 1991 16:2710
Chris --

I don't care if they have a couple of "L's"....

I like rooting for the underdog.  Virginia will beat UNC this year, no
doubt about it....

'Saw

GO WAHOOS....
17.2284Ummm, maybe bobANGLIN::KIRKMANWhat a WONDERFUL honeymoonThu Oct 24 1991 16:3410
    > and we [UNC] need a PF *bad*.
    
    Aw come-on.  It would be fun to watch Dean coach around glaring hole in
    his starting line-up.  It certainly would be instructional.  :^)  After
    all, other coaches have that problem on a normal basis.  Some even
    manage to be successful at it.
    
    ;-)
    
    Commander Scott
17.2285CNTROL::CHILDSEver meet a weak Ape?Thu Oct 24 1991 16:3512
 Cmon now Crispper, Montross played last year, Wright practiced big difference.
 Caber (sp?) is probably a better replacement at PG than whomever  is replacing
 King Lice (tm). Definately not the world of difference you'd like to imply.
 
 The real reason the Hall will be a solid favorite are two:

	numero uno:  PJ >>>>> Dean. not even close here. 

	numero dos: Hall's hired guns >>>> UNC's hired guns.

 mike
17.2286STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishThu Oct 24 1991 16:5911
    Why does Dean get his 20+ wins a year....?
    
    Because NC schedules the likes of the Citidal, Townson St, Cornell,
    Central Florida, Jacksonville...
    
    And ACChris is always bragging about NC's tough schedule.  Well I don't
    see how Dean get through the above teams without a few losses.  What
    a monstor stretch of games..... :-)
    
    NC's schedule would even make Syracuse or Georgetown proud
    
17.2287as reported in a_objective_magazineCST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis Today?Thu Oct 24 1991 17:1428
    Courtesy & replrinted without permission of course from
    
    Peterson's '91-'92 College Basketball mag (now on sale)
    
    
    
    Psst, AccChris, the way I figure it, you could use this extract as
    
    proof that it takes time to learn The System(tm) and the press is being
    
    unfair OR you could use it to justify why the Tar Heels don't do too
    
    well once the season starts.
    
    ;^)
    
    yer pal,
    Kev
    
    Pg73
    
    "OVERRATED
    1. North Carolina's Sophomores
    Tabbed as Dean Smith's greatest recruiting class ever, one of last
    year's freshmen has transferred (Clifford Rozier to Louisville) and
    another (Derrick Phelps) spent much time of the season injured. 
    Seven-footer Eric Montross started at the end of the season, but the
    rest of the class is still unproven on the college level."
17.2288Dean and UNC cheerleaders are *under* rated. (HTH)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 24 1991 17:536
    Couldn't agree more, Kev.  Our sophomores are *way* overrated.  In
    fack, so are our freshmen, juniors, and seniors.  Our physician is
    overrated too, as are our managers.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2289Positively Sublime...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJane &amp; Ted's Bogus AdventureThu Oct 24 1991 18:095
    re: a couple back
    
    Cap, you're beautiful.  Don't ever change, babes...
    
    Big10 Tom
17.2290Great Mag - get yours now!!!!!CST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis Today?Thu Oct 24 1991 18:3423
    ACC Chris,
    
    I'd like to share with you a passage which I believe you either
    
    missed reading ('cause it was at the end of the article) or maybe you
    
    just forgot.  IMO, there is a_implication about a certain individual
    
    and how he is rated compared to another coach (now retired);
    
    pg30 - ...." It's time to set things straight.  Smith did not invent
    man-to-man defense, and he twice failed to win a title with a team that
    had Jordan and Sam Perkins.  Despite his solid-citizen players, his 47
    NCAA victories and the arena named after him, Smith is no Wooden."
    
    
    Now, if that makes Smith *under* rated, how far *under* would you
    
    surmise he is?
    
    yer pal,
    Kev
    
17.2291Oh yeah, I forgot to add this.....CST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis Today?Thu Oct 24 1991 18:3913
    BTW, 
    
    In Peterson's, they're rated #2 in the Conf and #6 nationally.
    
    In ProServe's Big East '91-'92 yearbook the same rating applies.
    
    
    Yup, I agree, they are Wayyyyy overrated!
    ;*)
    
    yer pal,
    Kev
    
17.2292Cap caught in a lie. (Naughty, naughty!) :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 24 1991 18:4126
    Aw shadup MorT.  I'll agree that Cap is the ONLY one of you weasels
    whose ever laid a glove on me, but this time he's totally off base.
    
    > Because NC schedules the likes of the Citidal, Townson St, Cornell,
    > Central Florida, Jacksonville...
    > What a monstor stretch of games..... :-)
    
    Patently inaccurate.  Cap conveniently leaves out three (3) games in
    this so called "stretch of games".  This includes away games at
    Houston and Seton Hall, and a home ACC game against Florida State. 
    Nice try though.
    
    There's no question that Carolina consistently plays one of the most 
    difficult schedules in the country.  This is a fact that even Dean's
    most rigid critics don't contest.  I will say that this years schedule
    represents one of the easiest we've had in a long time, the
    result of our team being incredibly inexperienced.  No way does this team
    deserve preseason Top 10, as Doug Ross recently told me mano-to-mano. 
    Ross sez he doesn't think we'll even finish in the Top 20 at year-end!  At
    this point I brought him back to Planet Earth, informing him that while
    the talent may not be up to snuff, Dean is still the coach, and how many 
    times in the past 30 years have you seen him finish outa the Top 
    20?  [not many]
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2293Cain't believe you haven't read all the ACC notes Kev ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 24 1991 18:4712
    re: .2291
    
    Old news Kev.  Go back and re-read all the ACC notes over the past
    several weeks (should only take ya 3 or 4 hours) and you'll note that
    Peterson's Dean-slam has already been dealt with by yours truly.
    
    Interesting Thypocrisy (tm) by the magazine though.  They say that our
    sophomores are overrated (they make up the bulk of the team) and the
    Dean sips, yet still see fit to rank us #6 in the USA!  Haw!!11  :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2294I didn't see any liesCNTROL::CHILDSEver meet a weak Ape?Thu Oct 24 1991 18:4911
 Where's Cap lie CrockMeister? Dean used to have one of the toughest schedules
 but not anymore. The ACC battles inflate the toughness of the schedule just 
 like the Big East and Big ten does for their schools repectively. Dean's
 always had a few toughy besides as well as his 5 to 10 cupcakes a year.

 He just hasn't taken the scheduling of cupcakes to the art form that the
 Stomper has. He's getting there though. Where he used to play a Louisville
 type schedule he's not caught somewhere in between there and Run DNC...

 mike
17.2295Good news is allus good news..... ;^)CST17::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis Today?Thu Oct 24 1991 18:5617
    Good point, 'specially when Peterson's ha SJU @#17 overall, #2 behind
    
    Seton HAll in the BE and they do a good job gushing over the team
    
    (Malik).
    
    The writer, somebody named Filip Bondy, is a riot!!! He did a great
    
    number on Thompson, Boeheim, Tark, and Bobby K.  As I get time,
    
    I'll drop those little gems in the appropriate notes.  I'm sure that
    
    more thjan one person will have someting to comment about.
    
    yer pal,
    Kev
    
17.2296STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishThu Oct 24 1991 19:0822
    
    Where was I caught in a lie...
    
    I listed 5 opponents that Carolina was playing in a span of 3 weeks.
    It's totally, 100% accurate and udeniable....
    
    I listed them because you are always bragging about the strength of 
    Carolina's non-conference schedule and I saw 5 cupcakes.
    
    So don't slander me, admit that it's the truth.  Carolina is playing
    5 extremely weak teams.  Is that true or not???????
    
    Anyway since your vocabulary is lacking, a stretch is defined as a 
    continuous period of time and Carolina has 5 cupcakes in that
    continuous period of time.
    
    Cap
    5 'automatic' wins is a pretty embarrassing counterpoint to your
    'Carolina plays one of the toughest schedules in the country' argument.
    
    Cap
    
17.2297Count your losses and give up this debate Cap.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Oct 25 1991 13:1217
    Wrong, Cap.  When you refer to a "stretch of games" and mention five
    (5) teams, NO ONE would assume that there might be other games
    intermixed.  In your horrible statement, we've got THREE (3) games
    mixed in among the five (5) you mentioned.  Intellectual dishonest at
    its worst, but at least it shows you're becoming more weasel-like all
    the time!
    
    Given that this is probably the weakest schedule Dean has had in over
    10 years and that it still includes non-conference games with Seton
    Hall (NCAA tourney last year), Villanova (NCAA tourney last year),
    Colorado (NIT tourney last year), Purdue, and Notre Dame in addition
    to the rugged ACC schedule which has just had two (2) games added to it
    by Florida State (NCAA tourney last year), I find it hilarious that
    you'd even *think* about pointing fingers at our schedule.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2298CAM::WAYGo Wahoos!Fri Oct 25 1991 13:2136
>    Wrong, Cap.  When you refer to a "stretch of games" and mention five
>    (5) teams, NO ONE would assume that there might be other games
>    intermixed.  In your horrible statement, we've got THREE (3) games
>    mixed in among the five (5) you mentioned.  Intellectual dishonest at
>    its worst, but at least it shows you're becoming more weasel-like all
>    the time!
    

The existence of 3 games in the midst of 5 does not invalidate the
term cap used...


I've got a "stretch of numbers" from 3 to 15.  They are 3, 5, 7, 9, 12.

Just because 11 is in there too, it don't mean that my stretch of
numbers is any less valid.



Dean has a pansy schedule.  Even if he played the 20 toughest opponents
in the USA and won all 20 games, he'd still get to the Big Dance
and stumble over his two left feet.  That's because he's a lousy
game coach.  

He's like an actor in the days of live television who would stand
there dumbstruck when there was five minutes of airtime left to
fill.  He cain't do it.

If it's outside of what he expects in his system, he just bangs that
square peg into the round hole until time runs out and his eyes bulge
as that big ol' chicken bone occludes his airway.......


'Saw


17.2299Who's splitting hairs now ???SLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Fri Oct 25 1991 13:3118
17.2300Forget splitting hairs, let's cut to the chase.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Oct 25 1991 13:468
    Of Carolina's 27 games, only the five (5) Cap mentioned can be
    considered of the "cupcake" variety.  If this isn't intellectual
    dishonesty, I don't know what is.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2301CAM::WAYGo Wahoos!Fri Oct 25 1991 13:485
              -< Forget splitting hairs, let's cut to the chase. >-
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Don't be cutting the cheese around here.....
17.2302RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JODon't quit the day job...Fri Oct 25 1991 14:185
    So Chris are you saying that the other 22 are all 'quality' or 'tough'
    games?   that UNC stands a chance of losing any of them?   Why - just
    because they are conference games - even against the weaker ACC teams?
    
    JD
17.2303STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishFri Oct 25 1991 14:3738
    
    Wrong Chris....
    
    NC's schedule is difficult due to 16 conference games, just as Syracuse
    plays a tough conference schedule, Michigan plays a tough conference 
    schedule, etc, etc....
    
    The difference here is that you've championed NC's non-conference
    schedule for years(which really has not been that tough).  Dean has
    routinely schedule between 5 and 8 cupcakes per year.  His
    non-conference schedule is not that tough...
    
    Of the teams that have made pre-season top 20's that I have seen, NC
    is playing a grand total of 3 games against those teams(Duke(2), Seton
    Hall(1)).
    
    Colorado will be average this year, as will Purdue(.500 teams at best).
    The ACC has a few teams that will sit outside the Top 20 bubble(Fla.
    St, Wake Forest, Ga. Tech, Virginia).  Houston could be a decent team
    this year but should not give Carolina trouble and Notre Dame is a
    .500 team as well.  Only Seton Hall and Villanova will give them
    trouble because both P.J and Rollie can coach circles around Dean.
    
    So of their 'one of the toughest schedules in the nation annually'
    NC has 5 cupcakes and 3 'average' teams(.500 clubs) on the docket.
    
    You've bragged about their schedule in the past, let's here your 
    objective views on the cupcakes that are on the schedule.
    
    You've been exposed again, Chris.  Isn't it embarrassing.  All you'd 
    have to do is admit that Dean has 5 cupcakes this year and the
    non-league schedule is not that difficult this year.  
    
    Anyway brush up on your vocabulary so that you understand the words and
    phrases that are used by others, instead of using your own
    interpretations.
    
    Cap
17.2304Better start writin' that speech, SoupSLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Fri Oct 25 1991 14:4821
17.2305UnrealRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Oct 25 1991 15:1013
    Carolina routinely has one of the most difficult schedules in the
    country.  THIS IS A FACT that *anyone* knowledgeable in college hoops
    would know.  If you don't agree, perhaps you're overestimated your
    knowledge of the game.
    
    I've acknowledged that this years schedule is not as difficult as some
    in the past.  Heck, this may be our easiest schedule in over a decade. 
    This is by design (as Dean admitted in Carolina Blue this week) because
    of the youthful nature of the team.  Even with this fact our schedule
    still only contains what I'd consider five (5) guaranteed wins.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2306Give 'em what for Chris. I'm behind ya 100%.AXIS::ROBICHAUDSmith &gt; KnightFri Oct 25 1991 15:241
    
17.2307Or Maryland, too, for that matterSLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Fri Oct 25 1991 15:3221
17.2308Hare Smithra...RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOBeam Gene up, Scotty!Fri Oct 25 1991 15:3454
    Welcome everyone to the Temple of Everlasting Dean, the ALl-Wonderful,
    Lion of Chapel Hill....
    
    First, take off your constrictive clothes, put on these baby blue
    robes, and start thinking only pure, Dean thoughts.....That's it.  You
    are floating, floating, to a place, a domed place, everything is
    serene, their are enemies on the outside - but LOCK them out...they are
    mere non-believers in DEAN....
    
    Have some Organic Dean Snacks:  King Rice, Overtly Cunning Ham, Chili
    Cuts and if you are worthy, some fresh Air that will get you Perkin
    like a new Ford...
    
    We must now, recite the mantra, and go over the rules to achieving
    everlasting Deanness -
    
    "Hara Smithra, hare smithra, hare, hare, hare, hareeeee....."
    
    Pupils, loving children, baby tar heels, dont igknorr the facts, recite
    with me:
    
    "Who plays the toughest schedule in the world? - DEAN DOES!!!"
    
    "What are the magic numbers?  700, 1, 1!!!"
    
    "How should one live live?   THE SYSTEM, THE SYSTEM!!"
    
    "Is their failure in losing?   NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!!!"
    
    "Who needs the most help?   PETE PAVLA, PETE PAVLA!!!!"
    
    "Who's athletes are overrated?   DEAN's ARE, DEAN's ARE!!!"
    
    "Who's the best recruiter?  DEAN IS, DEAN IS, DEAN IS!!!!"
    
    "Are Titles a Measure of SUCCESS?   NO WAY, NO WAY, NO WAY!!!!"
    
    "Why DO We FAIL Often in the Final Four?   INJURIES, HOT TEAMS, COLD
    SHOOTING, BAD LUCK!!!!!"
    
    "Who DO WE LOVE THE MOST?   DEAN, DEAN, DEAN, DEAN, DEAN, DEAN!!!"
    
    "WHo do we LOVE Second MOST?  Fred BROWN, Fred BROWN, Fred Brown!!!"
    
    Very, very good children.  You are almost through the first level of
    everlasting DEANNESS.....the brain, er, studies will continue..
    
    ANy questions?
    
    
    "WHat, NO - NONE OF US EVER KNOW WHAT TIME IT IS!!!!"
    
    
    
17.2309DYPSS1::ROPERBillyMartin,WoodyHayes,BobKnightFri Oct 25 1991 15:3723
    Chris, many notes back, you asked why UK had broken its contract with
    UNC.  I'll have to take your word that the contract was broken.  I'll
    try and explain why Pitino doesn't wont to play UNC though.
    
    First, he felt that with this team being weakened considerably by two
    years of probation, that their schedule was tough enough already.  For
    instance, this years non-conference schedule includes IU, Arizona
    State, Georgia Tech, Louisville, and Notre Dame.  I reallly believe
    that these two programs will play again in the very near future.  BTW,
    the 'Cats are also in the pre-season NIT this year.  I believe they
    play Oklahoma State in the first NIT game in Rupp.  Can't wait to see
    the fans rip into Eddie (I never met a drink I didn't like) Sutton!
    
    Second, coach Pitino wants to schedule a yearly game in the Big Apple. 
    He promised Jamal Mashburn and other NYC recruits that he would try and
    schedule at least one game a year in the city so that families could
    see them play, etc.  If they make it past the first two games in the
    NIT, then they will play their this season.  Word is that Pitino would
    like to schedule St. Johns in Madison Square Garden in the future. 
    
    HTH's
    
     - Wildcat
17.2310Make it 6-21RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Oct 25 1991 15:427
    Ferget about Maryland and Clemson at the DeanDome Ketch.  *YOUR* alma
    mater has won there three (3) times in over 70 tries!
    
    Haw haw!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2311AXIS::CHAPPELCurly Q. LinkFri Oct 25 1991 15:517
17.2312Dean Smith == Sportsmanship == Balanced PrioritiesRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Oct 28 1991 12:5012
    In this years '91-'92 edition of the well-respected Streets and Smith
    Jim O'Brien writes the lead editorial column.  In it he singles out Dean
    Smith's handling of his wholly undeserved ejection from the Final 4
    game with Kansas.  O'Brien states that Dean handled it in the same
    manner he handles everything else: in a sportsmanship fashion with his
    priorities well in order.
    
    Paints quite a different picture than the weasel edition but hey, I'm
    sure O'Brien doesn't know what he's talking about.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2313CAM::WAYGo Wahoos!Mon Oct 28 1991 12:5418
>    In this years '91-'92 edition of the well-respected Streets and Smith
>    Jim O'Brien writes the lead editorial column.  In it he singles out Dean
>    Smith's handling of his wholly undeserved ejection from the Final 4
>    game with Kansas.  O'Brien states that Dean handled it in the same
>    manner he handles everything else: in a sportsmanship fashion with his
>    priorities well in order.

Just another attempt to grab some limelight....
    
>    Paints quite a different picture than the weasel edition but hey, I'm
>    sure O'Brien doesn't know what he's talking about.

Obviously, he's a closet Hare Smithna......


8^)


17.2314No excuse for the attack on the refSLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Mon Oct 28 1991 13:0013
 Okay, so that's fine.   O'Brien liked the way Smith handled himself. 
 Great.   What about the Tar Heel assistant coach, Guthridge ???, who tried
 to attack one of the referees in the hallway after the game ???
 
 Nice balance, I'll say.   Humility *and* violence in one nice neat little
 spit-shined package.
 
 C'mon, Soup, even you can admit that referees shouldn't be subjected to
 physical violence by professional representatives of the program, can't
 you ???    What's next in the Dean Dome ???   A South American
 soccer-style moat around the court to keep fans from killing the refs ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2315I'm not nearly so forgiving, which is my fault.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Oct 28 1991 13:4510
    Normally I'd agree, there's no excuse for attacking a ref.  In this
    case though I'd have to make an exception.  This guy was so blatantly
    awful and, worse yet, vindictive, that I'd have considered it even if
    Dean'd picked up his chair and clanked him across his haid.
    
    (I'm sure Dean would disaprove of this, just as he disapproved of
    Guthridge and his players going after the idiot.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2316Contractors hired yet ???SLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Mon Oct 28 1991 14:293
 Better start building the moat, Dean.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2317CAM::WAYGo Wahoos!Mon Oct 28 1991 14:5913
You guys are lucky it ain't rugby.  (Please, *bear with* me Bob).

For an incident like that, your team can be suspended from the Union.
The player/coach involved could potentially be banned for a period
of time or life for a bad enough encroachment.

No matter how blatantly awful the ref, you have to practice self control.

Imagine what it would be like if the NCAA suspend UNC from the first
month of the season AND banned the asst for the entire year.


'Saw
17.2318Curious...SHALOT::MEDVIDbe still be calm be quiet nowMon Oct 28 1991 15:047
>This guy was so blatantly
>    awful and, worse yet, vindictive, that I'd have considered it 

    So by this logic, you will condone Bob Knight's chair throwing and
    forfeit to the Russians?

    	--dan'l
17.2319Hey, how 'bout them Hoos, 'Saw ???SLICER::HUNTTed, that's a Rolls Royce !!!Mon Oct 28 1991 15:055
 Notes> SET OKAY DUDE = "CAM::WAY"
 Notes> SET NOTE /RUGBY=JUST_THIS_ONE_TIME
 Notes> SET OKAY DUDE = ""
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2320CAM::WAYGo Wahoos!Mon Oct 28 1991 15:079
See, Bob, every once in a while that "R" sport does have some relevance...

Great about the 'hoos!  Great stuff.  

Now I just have to start the "Hoo-doo" magic going for the hoops game
against UNC!


'Saw
17.2321A True StoryRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Oct 28 1991 18:3668
    Six (6) months ago some new neighbors moved in across the street.  The
    guy seemed a little geeky but nice enough when I introduced myself, and
    my wife has gotten quite friendly with his wife.  He told me he's got
    his PhD and teaches Accounting at Emory University.  'Splained his
    geekiness, anyways ...
    
    Hadn't spoken to him for awhile when early one Saturday morning he
    wakes me up with some mysterious hammering and sawing.  I looked across
    but couldn't see much, but he was busy_as_a_beaver.  (Reminded me of
    the scene in Monty Python & The Holy Grail when they're building the
    Trojan Horse.)
    
    Around noon I peer over, and, much to my complete shock and amazement,
    this guy's put up a basketball backboard with the following text
    emblazzened onto it in bright red:
    
    	
    				I
    			    D       A
    			N		N
    		    I			    A
    
    			 H O O S I E R S
    
    		
    ACK!!!  Ever morning since as I've pulled outa the driveway that
    backboard has stared me in the face.  So much for our subdivisions'
    covenants and by-laws - apparently *anything* goes.  :^(
    
    Anyways they invited me and the wife over for Game 6 of the Series.  
    Prior to the appointed hour I was tempted to log onto SPORTS to freshen
    my memory for the kindof propaganda I'd be hearing (kinda like boning up
    before a Presidential debate or something) but realized this was one
    subject I didn't need brushing up on.  We entered the house, I
    eyeballed him suspiciously, and he offered me a brew.  (Hadn't really
    talked to him since our initial introduction.)
    
    Now comes the good part.  (If there were a SPORTS Bible available, I'd
    swear on it that the following is true, BTW.)
    
    I've barely twisted off the cap of my Bud when he starts in, sayin' he 
    heard I was a big Carolina fan.  He then proceeds to start *gushing*
    on-and-on about UNC's great program!  He was waxing eloquent about Dean
    better than even *I* could do!!!  I tried to be a gracious host (it
    was apparent from the way he was talking that he'd trade IU's hoops
    history even-up with UNC's in a flash) and point out that, sure enough,
    Bob had more Titles.  *He* then tells me that, while that may be true,
    they inevitably experience lengthy dry spells in between, during which
    IU hoops effectively stinks-it-up BIG-TIME!  Try as I might I really
    couldn't disagree with him on this point.
    
    This guy was no dummy.  He attended IU from '74 - '77, then got his PhD
    from Purdue.  He knew dates, names, facts, and stats like the back of
    his hand.  And yet all he could do was talk on-and-on about Dean's
    unbelievable consistenty. (He axed me *how* he managed to stay SO
    consistently good from year-to-year, while Bob inevitably falls on his
    face with regularity.  "Dunno", I said, too humble to start bragging
    about Dean's genius!)
    
    Not even a heartbreaking 11th inning Braves 'L' ruined the evening, and
    this morning when I drove outa the driveway I raised my travel mug and 
    toasted the formerly-obscene backboard.  Heck, I might even go over and
    play him in_a game of H-O-R-S-E.
    
    HAW HAW!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2322Declining standards, a_American Tradegy...GUSHER::WAUGAMANMon Oct 28 1991 19:150
17.2323mighty polite neighborHAVASU::HEISERunborn women have rights tooMon Oct 28 1991 19:561
    nothin' worser than a Big 10 Bigot that cain't handle his liquor!
17.2324DUGROS::ROSSI came, I saw, I leftMon Oct 28 1991 21:4545
>    The guy  seemed a little geeky but nice enough when I introduced myself,

Takes one to know one, eh, Chris?

---

My pre-pre-preseason prognostication for the ACC:

	#1   Duke   		Shouldn't lose any... probably will lose one
				in the league... Grant Hill emerges this year
				as an all-ACC along with Laettner.
	#2   Virginia		Wahoos better not fold this year... need to
				replace Crotty
	#3   Wake Forest        Very strong up front... Man-child Rodney Rogers
				vs George Lynch will be fun
	#4   North Carolina     Very overrated this year.  Lynch and Hubert
				Davis must carry team;  Montross will either
				be a horse or a nag {bet on nag - 7 pts, 6.5
				rebounds a game}.  Who else is there with ANY
				known talent - Henrik Rodl?  HA HA HA!! 
	#5   Georgia Tech 	They may surprise people if Travis Best plays
				a real point guard, not Kenny Anderson's
				version of 40% FG.   Malcolm Mackey is another
				widebody stud.
	#6   Florida State	They'll find out what a real league is like.
				Probably will lose some games they should
				win just getting used to the surroundings.
	#7   Maryland		The Williams brothers {Coach Gary and player
				Walt} will keep them in the games.  Maybe 
				the talent will come next year.
	#8   NC State		Tom Gugliotta and who else?  Guard Balki
				Bartokomus will be deported.
	#9   Clemson		Will only be able to win one game {after 
				a suitable donation is made to the ACC 
				Officials Retirement Fund}.  


All-ACC:

		First Team				Second Team
	Christian Laettner                          Rodney Rogers
	George Lynch                                Malcom Mackey
	Bryant Stith				    Grant Hill
	Walt Williams				    Tom Gugliotta
	Hubert Davis				    Bobby Hurley {ugh}
17.2325A pre-emptive, catch you off guard strike....CAM::WAYGo Wahoos!Tue Oct 29 1991 10:2111
Geez, Chris, that guy really played you for a sucker.

I mean, here's the guy who's got the IU backboard, and he's gushing
to you about DeanSystem(tm).  What's that tell you....

Tells me he's obviously trying to head you off at the pass, because he
doesn't have a bird, and doesn't want to be gettin' baby blue birdcage
liners in the mail....


'Saw
17.2326Ross credibility slips a notchRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Oct 29 1991 11:029
    re: Ross
    
    Two (2) 1st team All-ACC players, Dean Smith as the head coach, ... and
    we're gonna finish FOURTH?!!!!
    
    Not likely, *unless* Derrick Phelps gets injured.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2327does this mean I won't git my tapes?ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJane &amp; Ted's Bogus AdventureTue Oct 29 1991 15:3322
    >So by this logic, you will condone Bob Knight's chair throwing...
    
    Which was no big deal compared to the likes a Stomper, Norm Stewart,
    Vulvano, Richardson, et al.  But it was theatrical, and thus is 
    shown and mentioned tens of thousands of times per year.  But, granted,
    I understand that when you're the Greatest active coach *and*
    controversial to boot this is how it will be.
    
    >... and forfeit to the Russians?
    
    You disappoint me, dan'l.  Bob did not forfeit the Russian game, the
    officials did.  They did so cuz Bob had gotten his 3rd TF.  The Russian
    team left the floor before Bob and the IU squad did.  USA Basketball
    publicly accepted responsibility for the fact that the officials had
    in effect disregarded the rules in force and apologized to Bob.
    
    It's amazing how untruths cain take on the aura of factuality if simply
    repeated enough.  This is a page out a Orwell's visionary books and
    essays.  Shame on you dan'l for knowingly propagating mean-spirited
    disinformation.
    
    Big10 MrT(wins WIN !!)
17.2328Friendly Fire from MrTSHALOT::MEDVIDbe still be calm be quiet nowTue Oct 29 1991 15:4217
    T, don't attack me, attack IgKnorr(tm) for not answering.  For the
    record, I enjoyed those two Bob highlights.
    
    All I'm doing is asking Chris (who's too busy rubbing elbows with Emory
    profs...a.k.a. teachers at a real school) that since he can condone the
    UNC attack on the ref because said ref was 
    
    	- bad
    	- vindictive
    
    then he can also condone that which he has in the past abhored as
    actions unbecoming a coach.
    
    As for the tape, T, didn't get to it this weekend, but I'll try before
    I leave for a busy ness trip Friday.
    
    	--dan'l
17.2329RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOSET HAWK/PARTY=WIFYOUThu Oct 31 1991 15:016
    Soup -
    
    So, the Street and Smith's - praising snuffy - is GREAT.  The
    Petersen's, criticizing Snuffy is garbage.  Nice objectivity...
    
    JD
17.2330I see no hypocrisy in this. None.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 31 1991 15:229
    Correct, JD, cause S & S is by far the more credible publication.  It's
    as if you're reading the New York Times (S & S) and The National
    Inquirer (Petersen's).  One is renowned for their credibility, the
    other for their wackiness.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2331RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOSET HAWK/PARTY=WIFYOUThu Oct 31 1991 15:409
    Chris -
    
    Thanks for the belly laugh.  The translation is :  Cuz I (ACC CHRIS)
    agree with one, and don't with the other.  
    
    
    That's the bottom line.  Too funny.
    
    JD
17.2332Thanks to UNC /Don for these!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 31 1991 17:1015
o	"When you have a decision to make between two or three players at
	 that point in the draft, you try to take the player who played 
	 for the best coach because that way, you eliminate a lot of
	 nonsense.  At some schools, they have two sets of standards for
	 the players.  That's not the way Dean Smith does things.  This kid
	 came in with the right attitude."   - Red Auerbach

o	"When I first got there (UNC) I could not move without the ball at
 	 at all.  And I definitely wasn't aggressive on defense.  I think
	 coach Smith prepares you for the pro game defensively, and you
	 learn how to think the total game."  - Rick Fox


- ACC Chris
    
17.2333HPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Thu Oct 31 1991 17:162
    "I still haven't won anything". 
                         -Rick Fox, on draft day.
17.2334If Fox has an *average* game, we're in the Finals. :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 31 1991 17:328
    If he hadn't shot his miserable 5-for-22 against Kansas (including
    countless open jumpers, lay-ins, and 2-footers around the basket) it's
    possible he might not have to say this, although Duke would've
    definitely been the favorite in the Finals.  (Beat us 2 outa 3 during
    the season ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2335A little objective editing.....STRATA::CAPPELSmelts are a wonderful fishThu Oct 31 1991 18:079
    "If DEAN hadn't LET FOX shoot his miserable 5-for-22 against Kansas 
    (including countless open jumpers, lay-ins, and 2-footers around the 
    basket) it's possible he might not have to say this, although we would've
    definitely been the favorite in the Finals.  (Crushed Duke in the ACC
    Tourney finals after choking 2 other games away to them during the
    season)"
    
    ACC Cap      
    
17.2336RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Oct 31 1991 18:1915
    Yup, clearly Dean shoulda benched his first-team all-ACC performer and
    eventual 1st round NBA draft choice in favor of a freshman who averaged
    8 minutes p/ game and less than 2 points p/game.  Clearly.  
    
    It becomes even clearer when you know the tendency of Fox to shoot
    poorly at times (particularly early in a game) and come on strong
    down the stretch.
    
    Gotta admit though Cap, I *am* curious as to what you IU faithful feel
    about the Hucksters recruiting summary I posted in 15.412.  (The one 
    that all replies so far have indicated that noters feel this to be a 
    "typical" Knight recruiting class.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2337AXIS::ROBICHAUDPick 7Fri Nov 01 1991 09:516
    	Hang in there ACChris.  I've been kind of busy lately so I can't
    help you with the defense (although you're doing a masterful job
    with these weasels) of Dean.  BTW Rick Fox will be starting at guard
    for the Celtics tonight.
    
    				/Don
17.2338ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Nov 01 1991 11:0037
    Wail, you didn't axe *me* for my opinion a the recruiting summary,
    but I'll give it anyway:
    
    * Typical group a projects, but will improve dramatically by the
      end a their frosh years and will be serviceable by the end a their
      careers.
    
    * At some point they'll win a Big10 Title.
    
    * They'll be blown out by big-time squads occassionally during the
      regular season.
    
    * They'll suffer at least one early round loss to a small-time program
      with equal or better talent in the starting lineup.
    
    * It's odds-on they'll also pick up Title rings beating more talented
      squads en route to a National Championship Title.  This will happen
      despite 10 or so regular season losses and finishing 3rd or 4th in
      the Big10.
    
    * Two or three will be drafted or picked up as free agents by NBA
      teams thinking along Red Auerbach's line.  One, maybe two, will 
      make a squad as a end a bench type, and will fade into oblivion not
      long thereafter.
    
    re: New York Times' credibility
    
    Funny thing, ACCrock.  In all deference to your naivety about politics,
    there are at least two publications in this country that are dedicated
    to documented distortions and outright lies published by the Times on
    a daily basis.  Millions now regard the Times as the least credible of
    American dailies.  If you want credibility in a newspaper I suggest a
    mail suscription from the Miami Herald, the Houston paper (forget its
    name), the San Francisco Chronicle, or the LA Times...
    
    MrT
    
17.2339aN OBJECTIVE ANSWER PLEASE?CNTROL::CHILDSEver meet a weak Ape?Sat Nov 02 1991 01:1624
o	"When you have a decision to make between two or three players at
	 that point in the draft, you try to take the player who played 
	 for the best coach because that way, you eliminate a lot of
	 nonsense.  At some schools, they have two sets of standards for
	 the players.  That's not the way Dean Smith does things.  This kid
	 came in with the right attitude."   - Red Auerbach

o	"When I first got there (UNC) I could not move without the ball at
 	 at all.  And I definitely wasn't aggressive on defense.  I think
	 coach Smith prepares you for the pro game defensively, and you
	 learn how to think the total game."  - Rick Fox


- ACC Chris
    

 So what Chris. So Dean tean fundamentals no one ever denied it. The bottom
 line in here though is that you have stated on Numerous Occassions that
 you are first and foremost a College Basketball fan supremio, numero uno.
 So I ask why in the heil should you care if Dean prepares his players for the
 NBA shouldn't you want him to claim the NCAA prize of the only real basket-
 ball game in town? Given his talent level shouldn't he have more???

 mike
17.2340RAVEN1::B_ADAMSBilly Jack for President!Sat Nov 02 1991 12:216
17.2341B.A.D.HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelTue Nov 05 1991 09:199
A University of No Carolina-Chapel Hill committee, formed after several 
complaints of civil rights violations, concluded that the Chapel Hill 
campus was "intolerant" to handicapped, gays, women and blacks.

Maybe, these groups were just fed up with Dean Smith choking every year 
and having to to listen to Tar Heels, real and otherwise, spout the
Bible According to Dean.

TTom
17.2342RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOMember of the PPPPTue Nov 05 1991 13:176
    TTom 0
    
    That should be amended.  I am sure they are tolerant of blacks - as
    long as they play on the hoops squad or other team.
    
    JD
17.2343Scrapin' the baby blue sky ...SHALOT::HUNTI Survived Megastorm '91Tue Nov 05 1991 14:5710
 Carolina got a verbal commitment from yet another high school stud. 
 This time it's 7'-3" Serge Zwikker from some high school in Maryland. 
 Gibbons has Zwikker rated the No. 21 prospect in the nation this year.
 
 This means that nexted year's Tar Heels will have a total of *FOUR*
 7-footers ... Montross, Salvadori, Wenstrom, and Zwikker.
 
 Lovely.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2344ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJane &amp; Ted's Bogus AdventureWed Nov 06 1991 18:286
    This means that Snuffer's potential for massively symetrical 
    underachievement is as high as it's been since '84!
    
    Rat on !!
    
    MrT
17.2345Better angle on the ol' tracheal tubeSHALOT::HUNTI Survived Megastorm '91Wed Nov 06 1991 19:0710
 Indeed.   And it'll actually be a real easy choke job for him, too.  
 
 You see, with all those 7-footers around him nexted year, Snuff will have
 to throw his head back even more than usual to look up at his adoring
 pupils ... this will, of course, expose even more of his throat and he'll
 be able to get that much better of a grip on it when the clock hits 00:35.
 
 Should be fun to watch ...
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2346State loading up; Snuffy lands another studSHALOT::HUNTI Survived Megastorm '91Thu Nov 07 1991 14:3515
 More ACC recruiting news ...
 
 NC State has landed a killer class.   Three recruits committed to the
 Wolfpack yesterday ... 6-10 center Todd Fuller and 6-8 forward Marcus
 Wilson from Charlotte, and 6-6 forward Jason Sasser from Dallas.  Earlier,
 Charles Kornegay from Dudley, NC, also said he would attend State.   
 Fuller, Wilson, and Kornegay are the top three seniors in North Carolina
 high schools.    Bob Gibbons rates the class as "Top 15" nationally with
 Sasser as the potential "sleeper of the country."
 
 And, yes, Snuffy landed another stud.   This time, it's Ed Geth, a 6-9
 forward from Granby, VA.   And, yes, dammit, Geth chose Carolina over
 Virginia and UNCC.  Gibbons says Geth is a "Top 50" recruit.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2347RAVEN1::B_ADAMSBilly Jack for President!Thu Nov 07 1991 15:266
    re-1,
    
    	State really needs a good year in recruits. This year is going to
    be a tough one. Not many wins this year.
    
    B.A.
17.2348Jones shouldn't feel bad about this one.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Nov 11 1991 10:575
    You shouldn't be surprised Geth chose UNC Ketch.  UVa just landed two
    (2) BF's, and our cupboard is *thin* with Rozier transferring.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2349Should be a good group for Dean to develop to their max.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Nov 11 1991 12:4418
    > And, yes, Snuffy landed another stud.
    
    The reaction to Carolina's thoroughly mediocre recruiting year is truly
    comical.  We sign a Top 100 (Larry Davis), Top 50 (Geth), and Top 25
    (Zwikker) and, because they inked with UNC, are labeled "studs". 
    Virginia's class of last year runs *circles* around this one.  
    
    In addition, it's an accepted fact in recruiting circles that as soon
    as UNC is interested in somebody their stock automatically rises. 
    
    Ultimately though, Dean's unbelievable track record of turning
    prospects into big money professional hoopsters is well documented,
    with Rick Fox (Top 50) and Pete Chilcutt (Top 25) being the most recent
    examples.  (Hubert Davis figures to attract some NBA scouts this year,
    and he was a Top 100 player out of HS at best.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2350Small nitSHALOT::HUNTMusicians For Free-Range ChickensMon Nov 11 1991 13:5614
17.2351As usual, Dean puts the student first.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Nov 11 1991 15:2211
    Wrong, Ketch.  Davis is considered part of *next* years group, even
    though he signed during the spring with the intention of enrolling in
    the Fall '91 semester.
    
    BTW, Davis had several more chances to take the SAT's to try and
    qualify, but Dean recommended going to prep school to be better
    prepared academically.  This was mighty big of him IMO, given our
    desperate need for PG's ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2352As usual, Dean puts the prop48s first.ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMrT: SPORTS' Objective AnalystMon Nov 11 1991 17:236
    Reminds me a lot a when Snuffy's soul-mate Tark sent that Tito
    Horford-style kid from Brooklyn (you know, the crackhaid who got
    busted for robbery and gunslingling?  forget his name) to a ritzy
    finishing school to fix up his SAT problem.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.2353ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMrT: SPORTS' Objective AnalystMon Nov 11 1991 17:296
    Lloyd Daniels, that's it!
    
    So, this kid Snuff is sending to finishing school is kinda a 
    Lloyd Daniels type, right?
    
    MrT
17.2354Nice try, Soup ...SHALOT::HUNTMusicians For Free-Range ChickensMon Nov 11 1991 18:0917
17.2355Confrontation is the "nut" of SPORTS, Bob.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Nov 11 1991 18:2325
    > Davis is a shooting guard
    
    Actually Davis played both 2G and PG in high school, but his only
    chance to make it in the ACC is at the point.  (Carolina recruited him
    strictly as a PG, which only makes sense seeings_how they'd already
    signed Donald Williams, who may be the best shooter coming out of HS
    this year ...)
    
    The recruiting of Davis was wild and wooly.  He appeared a lock to go
    to South Carolina, but when Kenny Harris decided to transfer we jumped
    into the fray and landed the kid.  (It didn't hurt that the Gamecocks
    program was in total disarray at the time, what with their bizarre 
    decision to can a guy who "only" won 20 games, including_a improbable
    one over UNC ...)  
    
    Anyway with Dean appearing so desperate for a backup PG I was mighty
    surprised he didn't encourage him to go the Cornel Parker route and max
    out his SAT tries, especially since the rumor is that he barely missed
    the magic 700 mark on his first try.  (Parker, as you may recall, had a 
    tough year academically out of high school, going 0-fer-6 in the SAT
    department, and ended up preping for a year before finally (!) passing 
    and going on to UVa.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2356Bad news in the ACCRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Nov 13 1991 11:2718
    They say bad news happens in 3's, and this appears to be the case
    early in the ACC basketball campaign.  Consider:
    
    o Bryant Feggins, NC State's SF, will be out for the season because
      of a knee injury.  His replacement will come from a collection of
      utter unknowns.
    
    o Wayne Buckingham, Clemson's 6-8 widebody PF, who sat out last year
      because of discrepencies in his SAT scores, will be out at least
      4-5 weeks with a knee injury.  He underwent arthoscopic surgery and 
      will be re-evaluated at the end of the 4-5 weeks, with complete
      reconstructive surgery a realistic possibility.  (He'll miss the
      season if this is the case.)
    
    o Duke appears healthy.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2357DYPSS1::ROPERBillyMartin,WoodyHayes,BobKnightWed Nov 13 1991 12:1211
    Chris, many moons ago you asked why the "BIG BLUE" was searching the
    books trying to find extra wins in their battle with UNC for the
    all-time victory total.  This is an easy one.  50-60 years ago, no
    school kept particularly accurate records with regards to any sport. 
    UK was only making sure that everything was correct.
    
    BTW, UNC searched their own books this summer and came up with 5 extra
    wins!  UK on the other hand searched theirs and subtracted one.  Who
    could figure! :-)
    
    - Wildcat
17.2358UVa student newspaper harshly critical of Stith lasted year...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Nov 13 1991 13:2123
    Good to here we've extended our lead over the Kaintucks.  Not that Dean
    or I really care, but it gives me a certain degree of pleasure to
    picture the poor sad_sack faces of all them religiously fanatical Cat
    fans who consider it a personal insult that they're not the winningest
    hoops program in the country.  Haw!
    
    In other ACC news, Bryant Stith had this to say about this years Cavs
    squad:
    
    "We'll be much more up-temo with this team.  You'll see us making a
     lot more plays in the open court than we have in the past, which is
     something I'm really looking forward to."
    
    I consider this to be a slap in the face to John Crotty, who literally
    put Virginia on his back for the last 10 games or so when Mr. Stith
    went out to lunch.  Against BYU Crotty *was* the offense.  Now Stith
    sez he's looking forward to a new PG.  No doubt Cory Alexander is the
    real thing (supposed to be unbelievably cocky) but whether it'll lead
    to better performance from the now-suspiciously overrated Stith is
    another story.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2359E-Z as pie...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMrT: SPORTS' Objective AnalystWed Nov 13 1991 13:409
    >Who could figure!
    
    E-Z as a piece a pie, Mildcat: U. Kaintuck reduced their count by one 
    win in keeping with the program's fine new Integrity Program.  On the
    other hand, the Star Hells bumped up their count big-time which should
    be no surprise at all given the women-beating, referee-assaulting,
    police-fighting prop48-recruiting trend in that program.
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom
17.2360Soup's Turnover-To-Assist Ratio Starts Off PoorlySHALOT::HUNTMusicians For Free-Range ChickensWed Nov 13 1991 13:5225
17.2361Stith is the bum, not the overachieving Crotty.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Nov 13 1991 14:017
    Listen Ketch, it wasn't *my* newspaper that got all critical over
    Stith, but rather *yours*.  (Your alma mater's, that is.)
    
    Fact, me man.  FACT.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2362First-hand look preferredSHALOT::HUNTMusicians For Free-Range ChickensWed Nov 13 1991 14:063
 Send it to me, please, Chris.  I'd be happy to read it and respond.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2363You mean you don't have a subscription??RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Nov 13 1991 15:137
    You think I subscribe to the UVa student newspaper?  Eh gads, no man.
    I simply read in The Poop Sheet that the Virginia student newspaper
    wrote an article that was critical of Stith.  Do you doubt that this
    actually took place?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2364DYPSS1::ROPERBillyMartin,WoodyHayes,BobKnightWed Nov 13 1991 15:3815
    >>  Good to here we've extended our lead over the Kaintucks.  Not that Dean
    >>  or I really care, but it gives me a certain degree of pleasure to
    >>  picture the poor sad_sack faces of all them religiously fanatical Cat
    >>  fans who consider it a personal insult that they're not the winningest
    >>  hoops program in the country.  Haw!
    
    Tsk, tsk, tsk ACC Chris.  Really *objective* there.  I suppose you know
    of UK fans who consider it a personal insult that they're not the
    winningest hoops program in the country? HAW, HAW, HAW!!!
    
    May I again point out that it was UNC who added 5 wins to their total
    this year and UK who subtracted one!  Looks like UNC and its faithful
    followers were the ones who took this *too* seriously. :-)
    
    - Wildcat
17.2365Kaintuck started it, but Carolina finished it. (Haw!!)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Nov 13 1991 15:488
    Keep in mind, Wildcat, that it was u Kaintucks who started digging up
    the W's.  No_doubt in the interest of statistical integrity Carolina
    was forced to set the record straight.  
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2366More ...SHALOT::HUNTMusicians For Free-Range ChickensWed Nov 13 1991 16:2220
17.2367Virginia will struggle early, IMO.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Nov 13 1991 16:3624
    > Your *THIRD* hand account hardly reeks of the facts ...
    
    Since you went ahead and tacitly admitted I was telling the truth
    (which of course I was), ... where's your beef?  The UVa student
    newspaper critized Stith.  FACT.  No reason to get all hot and
    bothered, but it does raise an interesting issue.  Namely, ...
    
    Is Bryant Stith overrated?  I'll be the first to admit there have been
    times in the past (lots of 'em) when he's been an unstoppable offensive
    machine.  Clutch, too.  But the kid who we saw playing during and after
    Virginia's nightmarish road show through North Carolina was a mere
    shell of the player we once knew.  The rest of the year was brick-city,
    and the UVa students apparently didn't fail to notice.  If memory
    serves, there were charges of selfishness and a tendency to shoot too
    much.
    
    Should be interesting to see what kindof year he turns in.  Obviously
    he's the major cog on the Virginia squad.  Not only is he an immense
    talent, but he'll be counted on to provide leadership for a very young
    group.  For some reason or other he's starting to remind me of_a Mark
    Aguire underachiever ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2368It's enough to make the Big Ten my second favorites...especially since they kicked Jimmy out CNTROL::CHILDSI get wild, it's Automatic, somebody shut the doorWed Nov 13 1991 16:4725
 >   Should be interesting to see what kindof year he turns in.  Obviously
 >   he's the major cog on the Virginia squad.  Not only is he an immense
 >   talent, but he'll be counted on to provide leadership for a very young
 >  group.  For some reason or other he's starting to remind me of_a Mark
 >   Aguire underachiever ...
    

  Better to under_achive ala Aguire then Snuffy....

  I must have missed something but when did Brian start to stink? Can't
  recall ever seeing a game where he wasn't doing everything possible for
  UV to win. If his shooting was off his rebounding was up or vice versa
  as well as his passing etc. 

  Sounds more like the Spin Doctors at the Poop Sheet have railed him. Probably
  cause he actually had the nerve to play int ACC and not play for Snuffy.

  We all know how much they hate that...

  Also way way back the gentleman's agreement sound like another chickenshit
  Snuffy rule to me. Afraid to get bitten by a possible mistake. It definately
  reeks of paranoia the kind Stomper would be proud to be part of. 

 mike
 
17.2369Childs way off base [again]RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Nov 13 1991 17:0416
    Apparently you're a tad bit confused Mike.  See, it was the UVa
    *student* newspaper that critized Stith, not The Poop Sheet.  HTH.
    
    The ACC gentleman's agreement is a good one, IMO.  The problem that it
    solves is one of coaches trying to talk to opposing players after
    league games.  There have been instances where a coach would go up
    to an opposing player and urge him to transfer, etc.  This rule
    completely eliminates that possibility, which I consider goodness.
    
    One of Dean's sporting traditions is, immediately upon completion of
    the game, to congratulate the opposing player he feels played the best
    game.  Can't remember how many times I saw him shake Lenny Bias' hand.
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2370More ...SHALOT::HUNTMusicians For Free-Range ChickensWed Nov 13 1991 18:1942
17.2371CNTROL::CHILDSI get wild, it's Automatic, somebody shut the doorWed Nov 13 1991 18:4910
  hahhhahahahahahahahaaaaaa...

  A_magazine by DeAN-OOOOO Zealots for other zealots and they aren't going
  to twist the words? Please send the sandman to my house too...I've been 
  having a case of insominia lately myself...

  Answer me this did Dean try to recruit Stith??

 mike
17.2372BTW, UVa's fabulous frosh lost 92-67 in Blue-Orange gameRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Nov 13 1991 18:5024
    > Hopefully, if he performs to his First-Team All-ACC level again this 
    > year, you'll look as bad as I did in lasted year when I predicted 
    > Bobby Hurley wouldn't outplay King Rice in the Dean Dome.
    
    Heh heh!  Yea, that was a classic BobHunt snafu allright.  Nice spin
    control on your part, but your actual statement went something like:
    
    "Bobby Hurley can't play worth a dang on the road.", a statement which I
    immediately disagreed with, and was later proven 100% correct.
    
    I'm not willing to concede that Stith is a Stiff.  Far from it.  And
    you may be right about playing too much.  Burnout could certainly be at
    play, especially given the terrible scheduling mess UVa got themselves
    into.  (The nightmarish trip thru North Carolina was caused by
    the late addition of Notre Dame to the schedule.)
    
    But the fact that he played so terribly down the stretch, was
    criticized by the local media, and appears to this observer be implying 
    his poor was at least partially the fault of one of the gutiest players 
    to ever play in the ACC (Crotty) cause it didn't allow him to play uptempo
    leaves me wondering out loud if we've already seen Stith's best.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2373Still more ...SHALOT::HUNTMusicians For Free-Range ChickensWed Nov 13 1991 19:5033
17.2374JUPITR::PARTEECharlie -- Lemieux est le mieuxWed Nov 13 1991 23:0911
>RHETT::KNORR "Carolina Blue"                         16 lines  13-NOV-1991 15:04
>    One of Dean's sporting traditions is, immediately upon completion of
>    the game, to congratulate the opposing player he feels played the best
>    game.  Can't remember how many times I saw him shake Lenny Bias' hand.
>    :^(
    
    
    So, at the end of the Kansas game last year....MVPs all around?
    
    
    Charlie
17.2375*** ATTENTION CAROLINA FANS ***RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Nov 14 1991 11:0628
    Since I've been so magnanimous lately about posting non-Carolina ACC
    news I think I'm entitled to enter some Tar Heel info.  
    
    o The battle for the services of mega-talented Randy Livingston is
      heating up already, and it looks like it'll come down to a battle
      between Carolina and LSU.  I think we're in trouble with this one
      because of his position.  Unless Donald Williams pans out at PG this
      year or proves to be a flop, I'd have to think Livingston will go 
      play for Dale Brown.  (Yuk.)  
    
    o George Lynch has indeed publicly stated he's "rooting for anyone
      but me to play PF".  George correctly realizes that, at 6-7, his
      only shot at the pros is at SF.  Dean tried him on the wing early
      last year and it didn't work.  He's gonna give him another shot
      this year.  Trouble is we don't have a single player between 6-8
      and 7-0.  Likely candidates for PF are Kevin Salvadori (unproven,
      but could be a sleeper) and Pat Sullivan (talented, but is he big
      enough?).
    
    o Lynch was asked the question keeping us Carolina fans up at night.
      Namely, how's Derrick Phelps knee?  George chuckled and reported
      people are gonna be *amazed* at Phelps this year, saying once he
      hurt his knee last year he was the shell of his usual self.  Lynch
      sez Derrick drove the lane in practice the other day and threw one
      down *OVER* both him and Montross!  Oooo .....
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2376Yet another stud who'll leave "hungry" ...SHALOT::HUNTMusicians For Free-Range ChickensThu Nov 14 1991 11:5311
 Carolina signed yet another Top 50 stud ... another shooting guard ... 6-4
 Dante Calabria from some jigh school in New York, I think.   That's three
 Top 50's ... Zwikker, Geth, and now Calabria.
 
 Netxed year, they'll be seriously overloaded at shooting guard with
 Donald Williams, Larry Davis, and now Calabria.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  Carolina is also playing this year with two walk-ons.  Both of them,
 of course, professed their undying love for Snuffy.
17.2377Calabria is from Beaver Falls, PARHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Nov 14 1991 11:591
    
17.2378AXIS::CHAPPELCurly Q. LinkThu Nov 14 1991 15:139
17.2379They told him to get a clue and so ...SHALOT::HUNTMusicians For Free-Range ChickensThu Nov 14 1991 15:153
 Yeah, my brother Mike's wife ...
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2380You forgot the Ta-Boom BobCTHQ1::LEARYBetter than LDSThu Nov 14 1991 15:301
    
17.2381AXIS::CHAPPELCurly Q. LinkThu Nov 14 1991 15:5416
17.2382Pre-Season PredictionsSCNDRL::HUNTFrom the young man in the 22nd row ...Mon Nov 18 1991 11:5013
The Charlotte Observer's predicted order of finish in the ACC this year ...

	1. Duke
	2. North Carolina
	3. Wake Forest
	4. Georgia Tech
	5. Virginia
	6. Florida State
	7. Maryland
	8. NC State
	9. Clemson

Bob Hunt
17.2383MiscellaneousRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Nov 18 1991 13:0515
    re: .-1
    
    The only change I'd make is putting Virginia ahead of Tech.
    
    North Carolina had a double OT Blue/White game over the weekend.  Stars
    included Hubert Davis (34 points), George Lynch (28 points, but was on
    crutches after the game cause he fell hard on his butt), Eric Montross,
    Matt Wenstrom (inexplicably put down twenty-plus points and
    double-digit rebounds), and Derrick Phelps.
    
    The boys beat up on Hands Across America in an exibition 100-71 and
    played the Soviet Junior team Sunday.  (Anybody have a score on this?)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2384FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Mon Nov 18 1991 13:3019
    In men's soccer, UNC beat UNCC 1-0 in OT.  UNC plays at St Louis nexted
    Sunday.  NC State beat Clemson 3-1 and Furman beat Wake Forest 1-0 in
    OT.  Furman visits NC State on Sunday.  In field hockey, North Carolina
    beat Temple 1-0 and Maryland beat Iowa 2-1.  No semifinal pairings yet
    but the other teams still in the tournament are Penn State (3-0 over
    BU) and Old Dominion (4-1 over Northeastern).
    
    Now it's time to set up the LDUC of the week.  In women's soccer,
    Colorado College beat Stanford 1-0 in OT, Wisconsin beat Hartford 1-0,
    North Carolina beat NC State 4-1 and Virginia beat UConn 2-0.  In the
    semifinals nexted Saturday, Colorado College plays Wisconsin and
    Virginia plays North Carolina.
    
    Bob and Chris, have at it.
    
    Ninj
    
    PS - Go 'Hoos, on general principles.  Still haven't forgotten the 1987
    title game.
17.2385Weird touring teams ...SCNDRL::HUNTFrom the young man in the 22nd row ...Mon Nov 18 1991 13:387
Soup,

It was "High Five America".   One of those strange touring teams that seem 
to pop up only during the college pre-season.   There's another one making 
the rounds these days ... called "Spirit Express" or something like that.

Bob Hunt
17.2386Carolina Women's Soccer should be a lockSCNDRL::HUNTFrom the young man in the 22nd row ...Mon Nov 18 1991 13:4418
Ninj,

I would dearly love for the soccer Lady Hoos to whomp the hated Heelettes 
but it probably ain't gonna happen.   Have to give credit where it's due 
... Anson Dorrance has built a mega powerhouse soccer program in Chapel 
Hill.   

They are undefeated *LIFETIME* on their home field and the Final Four is 
being played right on Fester Field on the UNC campus.   If UNC loses, it 
will be a monster upset.   Maybe we'll have a chance if Dean shows up to 
watch !!!

Bob Hunt

P.S.  There is an outside chance of someone toppling the Heelettes since 
Dorrance and his top player are in China right now with the US National 
team but the remaining players didn't seem to mind very much as they have 
kicked the required butts to get to the Final Four.
17.2387Men's soccer underway, too ...SCNDRL::HUNTFrom the young man in the 22nd row ...Mon Nov 18 1991 13:4610
Forgot to mention that the men's soccer tournament is well under way and 
the top-ranked Hoos got a first-round bye.   I believe they play Hartford 
next.   'Saw, whatch you gonna do about your new-found favorites playing 
your hometown squad ???

The Heels are still alive in the tournament, too.  They took out UNCC in 
overtime to advance to the nexted round.   And NC State beat Clemson so the 
ACC has three teams still kickin'.

Bob Hunt
17.2388Talk about home field advantage ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Nov 18 1991 13:559
    I *think* High Five America is formerly Athletes in Action, but could
    be wrong.  They usually have a nice collection, if that's the case ...
    
    Carolina's Women's soccer is truly a dynasty, as has been pointed out
    on numerous occasions.  They've never lost a game EVER (since 1979) on
    their home field.  Wow.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2389CAM::WAYThe King of the Droods(tm)Mon Nov 18 1991 13:5912
>Forgot to mention that the men's soccer tournament is well under way and 
>the top-ranked Hoos got a first-round bye.   I believe they play Hartford 
>next.   'Saw, whatch you gonna do about your new-found favorites playing 
>your hometown squad ???


I don't have a problem with Virginia playing Hartford.   University
of Hartford is NOT one of my favorites.  UCONN on the other hand
would be tough....  Course the Lady Hoos did beat the Lady Huskies...8^(


Go Wahoos!
17.2390GENRAL::WADEGimme the beat boysMon Nov 18 1991 14:057
    
    
    	What?  No mention of the pilfering of some of Duke's title
    	Hardware?  I heard a report that some of it turned up at
    	UNC's campus.  Tsk, tsk.
    
    	Claybone
17.2391Tsk, tsk, tsk ... such children ...SCNDRL::HUNTFrom the young man in the 22nd row ...Mon Nov 18 1991 14:1613
True story ...

Some of Duke's trophy hardware mysteriously vanished from its cases over 
the weekend.  Gone were a game ball from the title game win over Kansas, 
one of the nets from that game, some of Krzyzewski's coaching awards, 
Danny Ferry's player of the year hardware and more ...

And it all turned up neatly displayed around the Old Well, a UNC campus 
landmark in Chapel Hill.

Naughty, naughty ...

Bob Hut  
17.2392lookit de motives...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKightMon Nov 18 1991 14:397
    Understandable.  What with their choke-o'-holic coach these kids at
    Star Hell U. sense that the only way to get in on a Title is to go
    over to Duke and steal some memorabilia.  This musta been especially
    tempting for them in light a the fack that Duke has displaced the
    hapless-but-star-studded Star Hells to 2nd rank status in the ACC...
    
    Big10 Tom
17.2393BSS::JCOTANCHTue Nov 19 1991 14:4716
    
>    Now it's time to set up the LDUC of the week.  In women's soccer,
>    Colorado College beat Stanford 1-0 in OT, Wisconsin beat Hartford 1-0,
>    North Carolina beat NC State 4-1 and Virginia beat UConn 2-0.  In the
>    semifinals nexted Saturday, Colorado College plays Wisconsin and
>    Virginia plays North Carolina.
    
    It's been confirmed that these games will be in Chapel Hill.  There was
    some talk that CC was trying to host the women's soccer final four but
    the weather undoubtedly didn't help any.  We have quite a bit of snow
    on the ground here now and there's more possible this weekend.  The
    championship game will be Sunday night.
    
    
    Joe
 
17.2394Just the edge the depleted Heels needed!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Nov 19 1991 14:5610
    re: .-1
    
    Thanks Joe.  That means in order for the Lady Tar Heels to *not* win
    another Title somebody's gonna have to break their unprecedented
    lifetime home field undefeated streak!
    
    I like it.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2395Objectivity Class 101STRATA::CAPPELWed Nov 20 1991 12:2129
Here is the measure to prove ACChris's objectivity, let's see if one
question is answered objectively.

1. Is there any program in the country that has consistently had more 
   'raw talent' over the last 20 years than North Carolina?

2. Should Dean Smith have won more than one title with the talent that
   he has had over the last 20 years?

3. Have coaching mistakes that Dean Smith made led directly to crucial
   losses(i.e Going to the 4-corners too early against Marquette in 77'
   or not benching Rick Fox even briefly in the loss last year to Kansas.)?

4. Has Dean Smith made the same coaching mistakes on a consistent basis
   or does he learn from his mistakes?(please provide examples)

5. Have Dean Smith coached teams underachieved in the NCAA Tourney or
   were all those 1st round defeats just a dream?

6. Without using obvious and weak excuses(injuries, hot teams), please
   explain why Dean Smith coached teams have lost so many games in the
   NCAA Tourney when they were the obvious favorite?
                   
7. What are you own personal criticisms of Dean Smith and the Carolina
   program(you must have some, no one is perfect in this world)?

Does anyone else have questions to add to this list....
    
17.2397STRATA::CAPPELWed Nov 20 1991 12:354
    
    That had to be one of the funniest replies that I have ever read,
    thanks for the laugh Hawk.  That should go into the noters Hall of
    Fame.
17.2398Right outta The BibleSHALOT::HUNTMusicians For Free-Range ChickensWed Nov 20 1991 13:3645
17.2399Bait offered, but not taken.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Nov 20 1991 14:0517
    Ah yes, the ole 'Best Defense is a good Offense' strategy.  Well it's
    worked well for the weasels throughout the years and, continuing with
    the football cliche's, 'Keep Going to it until they prove they can stop
    it'.
    
    Sorry, but I ain't biting.  SPORTS noters are fed up with this Bob vs.
    Dean debate.  They know danged well that as Objective as my replies to
    your questions may be, you'll just scoff at them and say I'm biased.
    
    No, what they (SPORTS noters) want is an admission on your part that
    Bob let his huge ego get in the way of his game coaching on Friday
    night, as Dick Vitale himself told us.  
    
    Take your time.  We'll wait.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2400RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JODisney presents: DROOD BROOD!Wed Nov 20 1991 14:096
    So Chris - who crowned you the 'Voice of SPORTS' - I missed the vote,
    that's for sure.
    
    If you're objective, than George Bush is honest.
    
    JD
17.2401Speaking for the MajorityRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Nov 20 1991 14:168
    JD, as an official member of the 'weasel' lobbying group you officially
    qualify as a minority group not representative of mainstream America. 
    (Kinda like feminism.)
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2402What is 'Mainstream America'?RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JODisney presents: DROOD BROOD!Wed Nov 20 1991 15:099
    Nice try Chris.  
    
    How bout this one:
    
    If you are objective, then the economic growth of this nation isn't at
    its lowest point in 50 years.   (It is, by economic stats released by
    the gov't, BTW...)
    
    JD
17.2403ACChris: minority of one...GUSHER::WAUGAMANWed Nov 20 1991 15:149
    
>    JD, as an official member of the 'weasel' lobbying group you officially
>    qualify as a minority group not representative of mainstream America. 
>    (Kinda like feminism.)
     
    I can see ol' ACCrook is looking for trouble from all fronts!
    
    glenn
    
17.2404The following statements reflect the views of our president and not the author of this noteDECWET::METZGEREveryday is like Sunday.Wed Nov 20 1991 15:2812
Repeat after me....

The economy is in great shape....
We are not in a recession...
There are no unemployed americans...

Dan Quayle would make a fine President....

Chris Knorr is an objective analyst....

Wouldn't be prudent...
17.2405Blown Teaching OpportunityDYPSS1::ROPERBRAVO PITINO!Wed Nov 20 1991 17:1316
    ACC Chris, I have to agree with you on this one.
    
    Listen to this guys, and see what you think.  Bob could've had a much
    greater impact on young Calbert IMO if he had used this game that most
    seem to think got away from him as a teaching opportunity.  Most any
    coach I can think of would've set the player down for a few minutes,
    talked with him, and then *PUT* him back in the game.  If the game is
    over anyway, use it as a *TEACHING* tool, not as a *HUMILIATION* tool.
    
    Once again, Mr. Humbles GIANT EGO gets in the way of constructive
    teaching.  If any of you still doubt that Knight is an egomaniac, allow
    me to quote from his favorite pupil Steve Alfords book.
    
    HTH's
    
    WILDCAT
17.2406Bingo, Wildcat.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Nov 20 1991 17:181
    
17.2408Sitting AA on National TV == Humiliating/EmbarassingRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Nov 20 1991 17:407
    Oh there have been *lots* of diversions going on Hawk, but only by
    those trying to defend Bob's bizarre "teaching" methods.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2410RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JODisney presents: DROOD BROOD!Wed Nov 20 1991 17:4926
    
    
    What's so damn humilitating about being benched?  Heck - even the
    greats have been benched.  Everyone I know who's played any sort of
    collegiate sports has been benched at one time or another.  Nothing
    humilitating or embarassing about it - unless one has an ego so damn
    big that they think they are Gawd's gift to whatever team or sport they
    are competing in.
    
    I've always been more embarrassed and humilitated by sucking up the
    joint then by riding some pine (or whatever the material...)
    
    The bottom line is Bob's players graduate, and they have good lives
    afterwards.  Yep, he's had some blow ups and such that are embarrassing
    - but so have every person I've ever known.  And if what Bob did for
    Turner (Langston? Brain cramp) after his injury is considered bizarre,
    then you folks need to get a real life.
    
    NCAA hoops has cheats as coaches, others who turn their cheeks and let
    women-beaters, drug users, and alchohol abusers, not to mention
    burglars, play with nary a whisper - but Bob makes his all-american sit
    on the bench - now, that's a real travesty.
    
    Hey, perhaps Bob just didn't know what time it was...
    
    JD
17.2411DYPSS1::ROPERBRAVO PITINO!Wed Nov 20 1991 17:5018
    Hawk, the point perhaps isn't how much humiliation the young man may or
    may not have suffered.  I doubt that this will scar him emotionally in
    later years.
    
    The travesty of the event is that Bob could've used this game as a
    wonderful teaching tool, but once again his ego got in the way.  I'll
    say it again, most coaches would've set the kid for a few minutes,
    talked to him, then put him back in the game to let him work out the
    kinks.  The time to teach was during the game, not in practice a day or
    two later.  The impact would've been much greater on Calbert if the
    point had been driven home *during* the game.
    
    Nobody that has followed the game and understands it can argue this
    point logically.  Perhaps the key word there is *LOGICALLY*!
    
    HTH's
    
    WILDCAT
17.2412Humiliating benching uncalled for.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Nov 20 1991 18:0317
    Not only that, Mildcat, but with almost the entire 2nd half to play one
    would think Cheaney had plenty of time to redeem himself, assuming he
    was playing that horribly.  Not only that, but IU had *loads* of time
    to come back and win the game.  The thing that perhaps bothers me even
    more than the humiliation Cheaney suffered is the fact that the rest of
    the Hoosiers were forced to perhaps needlessly suffer a national TV
    'L'.
    
    Again, I didn't notice Calbert playing that badly in the first place.
    I *DID* notice the UCLA kid playing about as good a job on off-the-ball
    defense as I've seen in a long time, and I most definitely did notice
    Cheaney moving like crazy off-the-ball to try and get free.  There was
    one time I remember Calbert getting burned on a backdoor layup, but in
    that instance there shoulda been some help for him.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2413Antithesis of humiliation... exhiliration!GUSHER::WAUGAMANWed Nov 20 1991 18:107
    
    Wonder if those kids in 1976, 1981, and 1987 felt humiliated at
    the end of the season?  I know Snuff's kids have thirty outta
    thirty-one years...
    
    glenn
    
17.2414Nice tryRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Nov 20 1991 18:186
    If humiliation necessarily brought on exhiliration Waugamain, you might
    have a point.  Unfortunately even in Bob's end-of-peak driven System
    he's only got a success ratio of .150.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2415ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYA Cloaca Of HeresiesThu Nov 21 1991 11:0915
    >Have coaching mistakes that Dean Smith made led directly to
    >(NCAA losses)?
    
    Tsk tsk, Cap: You FAILED to mention Snuffer's most egregious
    mistake ever.  I remember that fearful night in '84, huddled
    before the flickering tube with other (flinching) IU alumni,
    waiting for the emotional battering that would come from a 30
    point loss to "The Best College Basketball Team Ever."
    
    But the tears streaming down our faces by the 10 minute mark
    of the first half were tears of joy... Snuffy-the-Inflexible was
    too smitten with his "system" to isolate Michael Jordan on the
    big-butted slow-footed big-hearted Dan Dakich.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.24161984 was a *VERY* good yearSCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeThu Nov 21 1991 13:575
Did someone say 1984 East Regionals ???

Ahhh, sweet victory ...

Bob Hunt
17.2417CNTROL::CHILDSG.Bush, unconvicted criminalThu Nov 21 1991 14:016
 Wildcat and Crook, put yourself in Calbert's shoes, the coach pulls you for
 two minutes and blast you then puts you back in do you learn from it? Maybe
 but if I sit you out an entire half you definately learn!!!!

 so winning isn't everything with Knight but teaching is. what a concept...
17.2418SHADDAP Witch, sometimes you make me pukeANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYA Cloaca Of HeresiesThu Nov 21 1991 14:461
    
17.2419DYPSS1::ROPERBRAVO PITINO!Thu Nov 21 1991 17:3823
    re .2417
     Wildcat and Crook, put yourself in Calbert's shoes, the coach pulls you for
     two minutes and blast you then puts you back in do you learn from it? Maybe
     but if I sit you out an entire half you definately learn!!!!
    
     so winning isn't everything with Knight but teaching is. what a concept...
    
    ***
    
    You most certainly *learn* more if the coach pulls you for two minutes
    and blasts you then puts you back in.  Only makes sense.  That's why
    child psychologists tell parents to teach/discipline a child right away
    if possible instead of waiting several hours after the fact.  Bob
    certainly disciplined the other night.  But taught? - NOT.  That's what
    this whole debate is about.  He had the opportunity to teach and use
    the game as a teaching tool.  He did not.
    
    It's pretty simple really.  Take the kid out, yell and scream, throw a
    chair if your so inclined, etc.  You then put said kid back in game and
    let him learn whilst the infraction is still fresh in his head!  Not a
    super hard concept to grasp :-)
    
    WILDCAT
17.2420Inexplicable, not to mention inexcusableRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Nov 21 1991 17:505
    Not only that Wildcat, but by putting the kid back in you actually give
    yourself an opportunity to win the danged game!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2421you guys are grasping for straws ha hahahaha !!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYA Cloaca Of HeresiesThu Nov 21 1991 18:006
    Give it up, both of you.  Bob's capacity to teach is undisputed and
    unparalleled.  Trois Titles, Dix Conference Titles, du vingt.
    
    C'est bon.  Tres tres BON.  N'est-ce pas?
    
    Monsieur T
17.2422Gomez, dah-ling ...SHALOT::HUNTMusicians For Free-Range ChickensThu Nov 21 1991 18:073
 French !?!?!   Ooooh, Morticia ...
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2423and he chickened out on the Biblical history thingANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYA Cloaca Of HeresiesThu Nov 21 1991 18:083
    Shhh, Robert!  Drop that tack or Heiser's down our throats again!!
    
    Poor MrT
17.2424STRATA::CAPPELThu Nov 21 1991 19:0414
    
    Dean Smif' calls a Time-out and looks to his bench to call out his 
    designated shooter ACChris to handle the *SIMPLE* questions posed to 
    him.  ACChris gets the ball at 3-point arc, the clock is winding down,
    he squares to shoot and ..... AIR BALL.
    
    It's too bad, as that was your chance to be truly objective and you
    chickened out, choked or maybe your just too humiliated because you
    know in your heart what the true answers are, that Dean has not
    coached his teams to their true potential.
    
    Oh well....
    
    Cap
17.2425STRATA::CAPPELThu Nov 21 1991 19:1015
    Isn't it great to see Wildcat's jealousy over the IU program come
    gushing out in his rather predictable attacks.  Jealous over the fact
    that Kentucky ran one of the most corrupt programs in the history of
    college athletics and STILL could not match Knight's team's from year
    to year.  
    
    The constant failures of your favorite program despite all the
    corruption and cheating must really eat at you.....
    
    Keep on attacking Knight for *IDIOTIC* reasons, doesn't bother me any.
    It only hurts your credibility(Imagine trashing a coach because he sat
    a player who was not performing, boy you guys really proved that Knight
    is one horrible human being....)
    
    Cap
17.2426DYPSS1::ROPERBRAVO PITINO!Thu Nov 21 1991 19:2211
    re .2425
    
    Quite a note.  Just a bit too *subjective*, but I'll let it slide. 
    Fact is since 1972 UK and IU have met 24 times.  IU winning 13 and UK
    winning 11.  You're right, I'm *extremely* jealous about IU! - NOT.
    
    Gotta admit I do have trouble sleeping at night considering the
    constant failures of my favorite program with all the corruption and
    cheating, etc.  Ha!
    
    WILDCAT
17.2427DYPSS1::ROPERBRAVO PITINO!Thu Nov 21 1991 19:257
    Sorry, one more.  I think the reasons Knight was "attacked" are fairly
    logical.  Perhaps we need to explain the differences between *IDIOTIC*
    and *LOGICAL*.
    
    HTH's
    
    WILDCAT
17.2428happy trails to you...CNTROL::CHILDSG.Bush, unconvicted criminalThu Nov 21 1991 23:1410
 Sir Robert this principal weasel would like to recommend the Bob Chappel
 receive a special comendation this year for his exceptional work. Crock's
 so confused he's lashing out everywhere...

 attacks the Big East recruiting yet in the words of his buddy Dicky V.
 the Big East is the toughest conference in the country followed by
 the Big Ten then the ACC.....

   
17.2429Vitale just as whacky as SoupSHALOT::HUNTMusicians For Free-Range ChickensFri Nov 22 1991 10:019
17.2430*Exactly* what did Vitale say?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Nov 22 1991 11:0811
    re: Childs
    
    Do you have it in print (like in his *way* overpriced magazine) that
    the BigEast is the toughest conference this year?
    
    If so, I'd be very, very surprised.  An argument could be made that,
    from top-to-bottom, they're the most *balanced*, but I don't seem them
    having the overall strength of the ACC, SEC, or B10.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2431Bob cost IU a chance at a win. It's that simple.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Nov 22 1991 11:1414
    re: Cap
    
    Nice subjective work there, Cap.  Don't address the issue at hand, but
    rather lash out at me for failing to answer questions I've already
    answered a million times.  MrT has trained you well, although your
    style reminds me more of the famous (and hilariously subjective) Hoot.
    
    I'm giving up on this issue (for now), but suffice to say when MrT
    starts obfuscating and talking in French I gotta give myself a 'W'.
    
    :^)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2432COBRA::BRYDIEHoward Roark laughed.Fri Nov 22 1991 11:1810
         If I can interrupt this gripping "Dean Smith Prophet or Pariah ?"
        argument that just seems to get better and better with age for just 
        a second. I'd like to say that it's nice to see local kid (Mass.)
        Travis Best playing well for Tech in arguably the best point guard 
        league in the country. I saw Best in high school and while he's not 
        another Kenny Anderson (who is ?) he's probably the best player to 
        come out of these here parts since Bill Curley and the best guard 
        since Rumeal. I hope he has a good college career.
    
17.2433Non-issue-- haven't seen one thing about it in the mediaGUSHER::WAUGAMANFri Nov 22 1991 11:369
    
    Can't believe you guys are wasting this much airspace on the simple
    issue of a kid getting benched in the *season opener*, fercripesake.
    Just shows you the depths that the pro-Smiffers will go to put the
    knock on Knight.  At least the Dean-bashers wait till the season's
    over, when it's most appropriate...
    
    glenn
    
17.2434It's an issue allright.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Nov 22 1991 11:5126
    > Non-issue-- haven't seen one thing about it in the media
    
    Well if it hasn't been in the media it certainly couldn't be an issue,
    right?  Come on Waugamain, don't be so intellectually dishonest and at
    least try and understand the important underlying factors, like:
    
    o Bob removed any possibility for Indiana to win the game.
    o Bob didn't just yank a kid for a few minutes.  He pulled his STAR
      All-American for almost an entire half.
    o Bob yanked his AA despite the fact that he wasn't even playing that
      poorly.
    o Bob is the *only* coach in Division 1A who I know of who would ever
      inexplicably pull this kindof stunt. 
    o Bob's reputation as a miracle worker with players is *way* overrated,
      as his early-round NCAA bailouts attest to. 
    o Bob's supposed wonderful 'teaching' skills are *way* overrated, as
      his poor NBA output indicates.  It's HIGHLY doubtful Cheaney will
      learn anything from his lengthy pine-time, other than the degree to
      which Bob suffers from egomania.
    
    Can't understand why none of these points made your morning paper
    though.  :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.2435one printed opinionSTAR::YANKOWSKASCal Ripken 1991 AL MVP!Fri Nov 22 1991 11:5211
    re .2430:
    
    > Do you have it in print (like in his *way* overpriced magazine) that
    > the BigEast is the toughest conference this year?
    
    The Sporting News I got in the mail yesterday is their "College
    Basketball Preview" issue.  Their rankings of the conferences had ACC
    first, then Big Ten, with Big East third.
    
    
    py
17.2437ACChris: namby-pamby, lenient, soft-on-discipline the way to goGUSHER::WAUGAMANFri Nov 22 1991 12:1127
    
    >> Non-issue-- haven't seen one thing about it in the media
    
    > Well if it hasn't been in the media it certainly couldn't be an issue,
    > right?  Come on Waugamain, don't be so intellectually dishonest and at
    > least try and understand the important underlying factors, like:
      
    Don't lay that "intellectually dishonest" b.s. on me, Crock.  You
    know darn well you're making a mountain out of a molehill whether
    Knight was wrong or not (the media comment was entered only as
    supporting evidence of the fact that 99.999% of America doesn't
    give a damn that a college coach had the audacity to sit a kid down).
    
    You're dead wrong on this humiliation issue.  Dead wrong.  Many of
    the great coaches, the most revered by their *former players* will
    tell you so.  They'll tell you that the benching was good for them 
    in their development as both players and men.  Go ask Joe Namath 
    about Bear Bryant benching him in the 1965 Orange Bowl game, his 
    last game ever at 'Bama with the national title at stake, for 
    breaking a curfew.  Talk to some of Lou Holtz' former players at 
    Arkansas and ND who suffered the same.  Just because Dick Vitale, 
    Dean Smith and you believe in this behind-closed-doors, wrist-slap 
    non-punishment approach doesn't mean you're right.  There's been
    a whole lot of success behind the opposite.
    
    glenn
     
17.2438ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Nov 22 1991 12:2918
    >Gotta admit I do have trouble sleeping at night considering the
    >constant failures of my favorite program with all the corruption and
    >cheating, etc.  HA!
    
    At least 'Deen, the last Wildcat alum in here (you *are* a alum and
    not another faux alum hanger-on, right Mildcat?), had the basic human
    decency to've been mortified by Kaintuck's bald-faced cheatery.
    
    Hey Mildcat, have you thought about boosting SyrExcuse too?  They pay
    top dollar, and even now have one star who admitted to doing a 14 year
    old girl, and another who was offered a cherry dorm rape opportunity on
    his campus vist to SyrExcuse... and took it.
    
    Sounds like your kinda program.  It's a long way back to the good ol'
    days a Joe B. Hall ain't it.
    
    MrT
    
17.2439DYPSS1::ROPERBRAVO PITINO!Fri Nov 22 1991 12:4829
    re - 1
    Cap, consider this a reply to the note in College Basketball also. 
    Can't be in two places at once!
    
    Give me a break 'T.  I was extremely upset at what transpired in
    Lexington.  I can't put into words how angry and frankly embarrassed I
    was.  However, it wasn't nearly as bad as you and others would like to
    make it out to be.  
    
    Frankly, your allegation that Joe B. Hall was involved in some sort of
    cheating is groundless and without merit.  The NCAA came into Lexington
    like Storm-Troopers in 1985 and left Red-Faced.  Found nothing.  Now if
    you want to ask me specific questions about the most recent probation,
    I'll be more than happy to address them.  
    
    UK has obviously had some problems.  Most of them resulted in a lack of
    institutional control.  They did however get a raw deal from the NCAA. 
    The NCAA was out for blood and they got it.  Never before in the
    history of NCAA inforcment has a case lasted as long as this one and
    been in the media spotlight like this one.  The NCAA finally got the
    "Sacred Cow".  The way Eric Manuel was treated in particular was a
    travesty.  He allegedly cheated on his SAT entrance exam.  Even if he
    did, is that reason from banning the young man from ever playing again
    in the NCAA?  Not in my opinion when you have guys getting second and
    third chances after doing drugs, stealing, attacking women, etc.  What
    happened was wrong, the young man may have made a mistake, but to ban
    him without a second chance is also wrong.
    
    WILDCAT
17.2440ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Nov 22 1991 13:336
    I didn't allege Joe B. was involved in any scumbag activities.  I
    said that it's a long time back to the U's last fine coach.  Like I
    said, cain't wait teal they bust Pitino.  Thigh-shuddering material
    is what that'll be.  New age Larry Brown!
    
    MrT
17.2441Not_sa fast, Mildcat.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Nov 22 1991 13:3710
    re: Eric Manuel
    
    The thing I find utterly sickening about Manuel's SAT cheating is that
    the kid sitting next to him was none other than Eddie Sutton's *SON*,
    who already had taken and passed his SAT and committed to Kentucky.
    
    Man does that smell bad ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2442Would I send *my* son to Bob Camp? Not on your life ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Nov 22 1991 13:4719
    > You're dead wrong on this humiliation issue.  Dead wrong.
    
    No, I'm not.  The fact that Knight humiliates players is public
    knowledge.  He berates them in practice, even kicking them off the
    team occasionally.  (Read Feinstein's 'Season On The Brink' for
    details.  By far his best work ...)
    
    I suppose though that even the great Bear Bryant might've done this. 
    What I doubt he ever did was indiscriminately bench a kid for no reason
    other than to feed his egomania.  That's the only plausible explanation
    *I* can find, since Cheaney wasn't playing that badly in the first
    place.  (BTW, Cap continues to insist that we don't know the reason for
    the benching, which is a tacit admission of *his* opinion of Cheaney's
    not-so-terrible play.  However if he can show me where Calbert was
    injured or something I'll humbly recant my hardnosed offensive on
    Bob.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2443Good (not great) ACC recruiting campaign updateRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Nov 22 1991 13:5337
ACC Early Signing List
======================

CLEMSON:	Rayfiled Ragland, 6-5, F, Chipola JC (Marianna, FL)

DUKE:		Tony Moore, 6-7, F, Washington DC
		Chris Collins, 6-3, G, Northbrook, IL

GEORGIA TECH:	Martice Moore, 6-7, F, Atlanta, Oak Hill Academy

FLORIDA STATE:	Derrick Carroll, 6-6, F, Columbia, SC
		Scott Shepherd, 6-0, G, Carmel, IN
		John Kerner, 6-10, Atlanta
		Maurice Robinson, 6-7, F, Little Rock, Ark

MARYLAND:	Stacy Robinson, 6-5, F, Lanham, MD
		Duane Simpkins, 6-0, G, Hyattsville, MD
		Exree Hipp, 6-7, F, Potomac, MD
		Mario Lucas, 6-8, F, Memphis, TN

NORTH CAROLINA:	Serge Zwikker, 7-2, C, Potomac, MD
		Ed Geth, 6-9, F, Norfolk, VA
		Dante Calabria, 6-5, F, Beaver Falls, PA
		Larry Davis, 6-3, G, Denmark, SC

NC STATE:	Charles Kornegay, 6-9, F, Dudley, NC
		Todd Fuller, 6-10, C, Charlotte, NC
		Marcus Wilson, 6-8, F, Monroe, NC

VIRGINIA:	None

WAKE FOREST:	Barry Canty, 6-5, G, Charlotte, NC
		Stacy Castle, 6-0, G, Far Rockaway, NY, Oak Hill Academy
		Rusty LaRue, 6-0, G, Greensboro, NC


    
17.2444STRATA::CAPPELFri Nov 22 1991 14:0014
    
    See ACChris berate John Feinstein for a piece on Dean Smith
    
    See ACChris support John Feinstein for a piece on Bob Knight
    
    See ACChris berate Bob Knight for benching a player without
    previous knowledge or background on why said player was benched.
    
    See ACChris ignore Dean Smith's blatent lack of punishment for
    convicted criminals.
    
    The cycle goes on and on...........
    
    Cap
17.2445RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOBush looking for Willie H.Fri Nov 22 1991 14:0810
    
    
    Yep, ACCCrisp was the model of hyposcrisy.  he's lambasted everything
    Feinsthein has done - in fact - Chris has blasted and blamed the evil
    media for about everything in the world.  EXCEPT for TWO things - when
    any form of media criticizes Bob Knight, and when any form of media
    praises Dean Smith.  Hypocrisy in 100' high letters, neon, on the side
    of a hill.  That's what we have.  
    
    JD
17.2446ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Nov 22 1991 14:4431
    Fellows, FELLOWS.  Why waste precious bytes documenting ACCrock's 
    hypocrisy?  Morning exercises?
    
    Why not intead review his MISTAKEDNESS:
    
    - Bob is the only coach to have ever benched a star player in the history
      of main (he's made this false statement several times).
    
    - Calbert, at that point about 4-14 with a rebound or two and responsible 
      for several naked defensive breakdowns, "was not playing all that badly."
    
    - Benching the star was done for reasons of humiliation and egomania
      (to believe this 'Crock one must believe the two crocks listed above)
      and cost the Hoosiers a chance at a win (remember, overall winning %)
      and certainly couldn't possibly have taught poor Calbert anything at
      all.
    
    - Bob's poor teacing ability has snuffed (love that word) out NBA careers
      even though 'Crock himself admits to Bob's lousy, and regional, recruiting
      and that Bob grads are recognized by all NBA scouts as a bargain cuz 
      they're all maxed out on man-to-man D, shot selection, picking, passing,
      and moving without the ball (NBA must-haves).
    
    It's all Dan-like in its majesty: Uwe Blab and Steve Alford and Steve Eyls
    Jim Thomas and Keith Smart and Steve Downing and John Ritter and Jim Crews
    Todd Jadlow and all the other stiffs surely woulda been NBA starters had
    it not been for Bob's poor coaching and egomania, and forget the part about
    them not having been ranked as blue chippers outta H.S. or that Bob somehow
    yielded 3::20/10::20 by destroying these careers.
    
    MrT
17.2447CNTROL::CHILDSG.Bush, unconvicted criminalMon Nov 25 1991 12:3519
 Dicky said it wedesday during the UK game. He again refered to it on friday
 while Pitt was blasting UK. He said he took a lot guff about the statement
 but would stand behind it.

 Given that Dicky just about plays the soap game with Dean, I figured the
 faithful might be tweaked I was right...

 Bob aren't those early season rankings taking a beating? For overall 
 Conference strength I'll but the Big East against anybody. The problem
 with the Big East is the now famous Stomper effect. Non-Conference
 schedule of patsy opponents leaves egg on the face of the conference
 and no respect with the pollsters...

  PY, like all opinions the Sporting News' is subective to the writer's
  own beliefs. For the record who reviewed for Sporting News? Was it that
  fine DUKE grad John Feinstien?

  ;^)
17.2448For viewers' sakes, Cherokee should shave his headSHALOT::MEDVIDWild-Hearted SonMon Nov 25 1991 12:396
    Duke is going to be very difficult to watch this year.  Why?  Cherokee
    Parks and Christian Laettner are both similar in height and have the
    same haircut.  I couldn't keep track of who was who against the
    Soviets.
    
    	--dan'l
17.2449STAR::YANKOWSKASCal Ripken 1991 AL MVP!Mon Nov 25 1991 12:5810
    > PY, like all opinions the Sporting News' is subective to the writer's
    > own beliefs. For the record who reviewed for Sporting News? Was it that
    > fine DUKE grad John Feinstien?

    > ;^)
    
    May well have been Mike...let me check and report back tomorrow.
    
    
    py
17.2450North Carolina == Winning TraditionsRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Nov 25 1991 14:1517
    Congratulations to the Lady Tar Heels for winning its ninth NCAA
    women's Division 1 soccer title in 10 years.  The Heels upped their
    13-year home unbeaten streak to (gulp!) 116 games (114-0-2).  They've
    won (double gulp!!) 61 in a row at home.
    
    (The above is courtesy of USA Today.)
    
    In other Carolina news, Derrick Phelps had 6 steals and 9 assists and
    supposedly drew generous cheers from the crowd (consider this a King
    Rice dig, IMHO) in leading the Heels past overmatched Citadel.  Dean
    started Phelps, Montross, Davis, Lynch, and Sullivan.
    
    Carolina plays at Houston this Wednesday in a game on the Sports South
    network, for those of you lucky enough to subscribe.  (Me!)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2451Couldn't_a said it better myself!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Nov 25 1991 22:1315
    Ed Geth, 6-9, from Granby HS in Norfolk, VA, announced that he will
    attend UNC and play for Dean Smith.  (Old news, I realize.)
    
    Here's what his HS coach, Jim Harvey, had to say about his decision:
    
    "Then it came down to the last two, which were Villanova and North
     Carolina.  The opportunity to play for Dean Smith was very much a
     part of his thinking.  Also, the opportunity to get into the pros,
     since Carolina kids seem to get that advantage.  The winning
     tradition, the family atmosphere, the way they share the basketball."
    
    Nuf said.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2452CAMONE::WAYThe King of the Droods(tm)Mon Nov 25 1991 22:527
>     tradition, the family atmosphere, the way they share the basketball."
    

The way they share the soap in the shower......


;^)
17.2453Looks like, smells like, sounds like ...SHALOT::HUNTMusicians For Free-Range ChickensTue Nov 26 1991 02:2811
17.2455Ask the kid about the bleepin' ring!GUSHER::WAUGAMANTue Nov 26 1991 11:121
    
17.2456No hired guns need apply at UNC.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Nov 26 1991 15:3014
    > I'm surprised that Snuff didn't prod the kid's coach to toss in some
    > sappy sound bites about "getting a valuable education" and "earning my
    > degree in nuclear astrophysics".   Shameful.
    
    No need to get the kids coach to talk about education - his mom did.
    She gushed on_and_on about how impressed she was with Dean Smith and
    how he was concerned about the kid academically *first*.  Certainly no
    hired gun, that's for dang sure.
    
    (I woulda posted his mom's quote also, but thought it was too mushy
     for you weasel types ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2457STRATA::CAPPELTue Nov 26 1991 17:2720
    You know I've seen these quotes from countless kids coming out of High
    School and amazingly they all basically say the same thing.  But the
    real amazing fact, is that kids say these things about other coaches 
    as well(During my stay in upstate NY I saw the same quotes about Jim 
    Boeheim and the SU program. these quotes were almost verbatim
    to what ACChris posted).
    
    The only difference here is fans from these programs don't jump at the
    chance to print them in public just to bolster their own insecurity 
    over the failure of their favorite program. :-)
    
    I mean what is a kid coming into a program going to do, bad mouth the 
    coach and the program???  Give me a break.....
    
    Cap
    
    P.S.  ACChris, I see you haven't proved your objectivity by answering
          my questions about Carolina, or Knight's transgressions over the
          last 3 years.  Did you want to know who of Knight and Smith have
          had more T's in the NCAA's.  I didn't think so....
17.2458Well done my main main, Cap. BRAVO !!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Nov 26 1991 19:181
    
17.2459I'll grant you this: Bob turns HS AA's into fine Accountants,teachers,computer RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Nov 27 1991 15:4821
>    You know I've seen these quotes from countless kids coming out of High
>    School and amazingly they all basically say the same thing.  But the
>    real amazing fact, is that kids say these things about other coaches 
>    as well(During my stay in upstate NY I saw the same quotes about Jim 
>    Boeheim and the SU program. these quotes were almost verbatim
>    to what ACChris posted).
    
    Since all kids out of HS "say the same thing", could you kindly point
    me in the direction of a quote where *ANY* HS All-American said he was 
    attending Indiana because of BobKnights great track record at turning 
    them into NBA breadwinners?  
    
    While we're waiting let's think back to the slap_in_the_face Eric
    Montross gave Bob on this score.  At his press conference announcing
    he'd attend UNC he specifically mentioned Dean's eye-popping track
    record of placing big guys in the pros. 
    
    Waiting in earnest,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2460RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOStop Bush/Quayle Wetlands Massacre..Wed Nov 27 1991 16:238
    Soup -
    So Bobby's approach is more realistic.  The odds, even for a H.S.
    all-american, of making it in the NBA are still pretty slim.  Since the
    idea of college is to get an education - what's wrong with Bobby
    ensuring that his kids graduate and go on to be productive in jobs
    like, gasp, accounting.
    
    JD
17.2461HPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Wed Nov 27 1991 16:282
       Hey, Norm Peterson is an accountant, look where it got him!!
                                    Denny
17.2462HTHRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Nov 27 1991 16:3211
    My thesis, JD, is that Bob doesn't develop talent as well as Dean. 
    Both do equally fine jobs at turning out accountants, salesmen, and
    basketball coaches.  On the other hand when you're dealing with the
    kind of talent Dean/Bob do, the odds on making money playing basketball
    get better, and your chances greatly hinge on how well your coach
    develops your game.  In that regards, as in so many others, ...
    
    DEAN > BOB.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2463Wrong math, ChrispRIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOStop Bush/Quayle Wetlands Massacre..Wed Nov 27 1991 16:4111
    Acc Chris -
    
    So, if Dean does turn out so much better talent - then why is he two
    titles behind Bob - who, according to you, doesn't get the most out of
    talent. 
    
    Is it because Dean is a bad game coach?  
    
    Bob (3) > Dean (1)  despite more talent on the Snuffers side.
    
    JD
17.2464Carolina vs. Houston *tonight*!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Nov 27 1991 18:3717
    > So, if Dean does turn out so much better talent - then why is he
    > two titles behind Bob - who, according to you, doesn't get the most
    > out of talent.
    
    As to Dean's Title drought, big deal.  It's already been proven that,
    in almost all cases, the best team doesn't win the NCAA Tournament.
    It comes down to having your team peaking at the right time and getting
    lucky, neither of which have been Dean strong-suits.
    
    As to Fight (tm) and talent, I never said he doesn't get the most out 
    of the talent he gets.  He's one of the best at this.  What I *did* 
    say is that he doesn't take that talent and significantly expand on it, 
    churning it into fine big_buck, bread-winning professional basketball
    talent.  (Go axe Eric Montross if you don't believe me ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2465igKnorrant jive-bull spewed by Crock, again! ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Nov 28 1991 12:1127
    >It's already been proven that, in almost all cases, the best team
    >doesn't win the NCAA.
    
    Bull.  IU's '76 squad was certainly the best.  Maybe nine outta ten
    a Wooden's were clearly the best (cain you say "Lou" and "Bill"?).
    Kaintuck's Givens/Robey/Phillips team had been through major wars
    from the time they were frosh and were clearly deserving (Joe B. did
    a great job optimizing this group).  UNLV was certainly tops two years
    ago, and ditto Duke last year.  Sloan's Thompson/Bridgeman squad was
    better than UCLA that year, they proved it.  So did Stompshim's Ewing
    squad.  Same for the Snuffer's Worthy lineup.  All these teams and
    many more were the best and hardly surprised anybody.  Sure, in most
    cases there were one or tow teams who were thought to be at the same
    level, and the Title game served as the vehcle to PROVE who was best -
    as happened last year between UNLV and Duke.  Yeah, there are exception
    years where onlly ONE  team is at the top level, as was the case with UNLV
    two years ago(, the '76 and '79 Tieists were also "in their own class"
    exceptions, as were most a the UCLA teams which had dominating talent
    advantages (centers!  forwards!  OH those powder blue guards!) 
    
    Sure there are exceptions: Indiana dual-opposite tourney record setting
    squad in '81 and that shaky '87 group.  Valvano's brilliantly coached
    Title squad.  Rollie's even MORE brilliantly cched Champions.
    
    But "it's already been proven?"  Bull.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.2466ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Nov 28 1991 13:2033
    Crockmeister has hoodwinked you guys into accepting his implicit
    assumption thaBob has worked with a like amount of NBA-potential
    as Snuffy Smif', and that just ain't so.
    
    And Crock himself knows this.  He sent me a piece on Bob from the
    Star Hell Journal that said as much, with various observers pointing
    out that Bob recruits B-level players and moulds them, where most
    other coaches, Snuffer included, simply go for the best talent by
    recruting hard on a national level.  Bob recruits primarily in the
    midwest only, and reaches out of the area infrequently, and then out
    of desperation (examples: B-level playe li Todd Jadlow, Jim Thomas,
    Dean Garrett).
    
    Smif's players go to the NBA cuz they were going there anyway.  Players
    like Worthy and Perkins and Jordan and Kupchak and on and on are very
    rare at IU.  They're common at Carolina.  What Bob and Snuffy do with
    the players is almost irrelevant.  However, it should be noted that if
    either of the two coaches better prepares a player for the NBA it would
    be Bob, who coaches man D of the weak-side help variety, which is 
    exactly what they play in the pros.
    
    I would say the production of NBA talent between Bob and Snuffy is 
    proportionate to the relative amounts of NBA talent recruited in.  The
    edge would probably go to Bob, having placed hopeless stiffs like Steve
    Alford and Uwe Blab in the league.  Cain't think a any stiffs Snuffer
    has coached into the league.
    
    Carolina has outrecruited IU badly the past 20 years, as a look at
    NBA rosters proves.  This must be true, unless you believe the
    igKnorrant jive-bull about how coaching for meaningless end-of-season
    peaks somehow saps a young main a his NBA potential...
    
    Big10 Tom
17.2467Dean's half-time speech musta been a thing of beauty ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Nov 29 1991 11:4561
    Carolina overcame a truly horrendous first half at Houston Wednesday
    night, posting a 68-85 "W" over the game Cougars.  Houston forward Sam
    Mack had a truly awe-inspiring first half, throwing down 21 big ones
    from all over the hardwood.  Treys, dunks, jumpers, lay-ins, free
    throws.  Mr. Mack will be a force to be reckoned with in the SWC.
    Still though, 15 (!) turnovers by Carolina insured we were gonna be
    losing by a lot at the half no matter what the opposition was doing.
    Particularly disturbing was the tendency to go through long dry spells
    where we not only didn't score but hardly got a shot off.  Last years
    team had the same problem ...
    
    This edition of UNC basketball is beset with problems.  We're not
    quick, that's for sure.  We've got no backup PG, unless you consider
    6-7 slow_as_death Henrik Rodl a "point guard".  We've got no players
    between 6-8 and 7-0.  (i.e. no BF.)  Outside shooting is extremely
    suspect once you get past Hubert Davis.  Supposed super-shooter Donald
    remained nailed to the bench the entire game.
    
    Having said all that I gotta give 'em credit.  Down by 15 points in_a
    unfriendly arena and playing terrible basketball it would've been easy
    to mail this one in and try again Saturday night.  But this team
    bootstraped themselves and fought back, forcing Houston into higher
    degree of difficulty shots.  Offensively Hubert Davis basically put the
    team on his back and carried them through to the "W".  
    
    Couple of observations:
    
    "The PG Puzzle".  Dean has opted to use Rodl as Phelps' backup, which
    is undoubtedly the best option given the ugly, ugly alternatives.  Rodl
    plays the point offensively, but Davis plays the opponents point
    defensively.  Rodl can handle the ball well-enough as long as the
    pressure isn't too great.  Phelps can handle the ball and play "D",
    no question.  His outside shooting looks to be *bad* though, and he
    has a tendency to force things a bit.  The later will be corrected
    with experience.  The former will be tough to correct.  (Shooters are
    born, not made, ...)
    
    "The BF Puzzle".  The more I watch George Lynch the more I agree with
    myself that he's a Power Forward stuck inside a Small Forward's body.
    He's just not big enough to consistently muscle inside offensively, 
    although he certainly can bang the boards on both ends.  Still though,
    God played a cruel joke on him to not grow him another 2 inches, where
    he'd almost certainly enjoy about 10 years in the NBA.  Other than
    Lynch, we have no BF.  Period.  Salvadori was unimpressive to say the
    least.  Pat Sullivan ain't no BF.  Period.  Clearly Clifford Rozier
    walked away from a terrific playing opportunity ...  :^(
    
    "Miscellaneous".  Montross was a hacking machine out there, although
    in his defense the super-quick Cougars make things tough on a true
    7-footer.  He played well-enough before fouling out, even showing a
    left-handed baby hook at one point!  I like Brian Reese.  He was one
    of the folks who really shut down Mack in the 2nd half.  Kid is an
    athlete_and_a_half.  Rodl and Sullivan are too unselfish.  Matt
    Wenstrom actually looks usable as a backup to Montross, although at
    crunch time when Eric fouled out he went to Salvadori, probably cause
    of Houston's quickness.  Hubert Davis is the guts and soul of this team
    on offense.  If I were an opponent I'd use all my assets to shut him down 
    and then watch Carolina struggle.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2468RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Nov 29 1991 18:3979
> Bob recruits primarily in the midwest only, and reaches out of the area 
> infrequently, and then out of desperation (examples: B-level playe li Todd 
> Jadlow, Jim Thomas, Dean Garrett).

Recruiting primarily out of the midwest provides little in the way
of a handicap.  There's more than enough ballplayers coming out of that
region to keep IU and all their neighbors well-stocked.  Heck, isn't 
HS basketball in the state of Indiana a religion to begin with?  You're
not gonna tell me there's not a nice talent flow out of those ranks, and
when you throw in the city of Chicago, well, ... this is simply no excuse.

Exactly why Bob feels it necessary to stick so close to home is a mystery
to me.  Certainly nothing wrong with national recruiting, although the
trend for at least the last decade has been away from this.  Most players
prefer to stay close to home, although there are plenty of exceptions.
(Mostly those in the Northeast Corridor looking to escape the dreary winters
and head south to play in the finest hoops conference in the USA, the A-C-C.)

Only thing that makes sense is Bob's realization that his chances of signing
a kid outside of the midwest are bleak at best, given the image he portrays
on TV of a raving madman.  Presumably his idolators close to him are more
forgiving of his problematic moral track record.


> I would say the production of NBA talent between Bob and Snuffy is 
> proportionate to the relative amounts of NBA talent recruited in.  

Haw haw!  Good one, MorT, but would you mind explaining to us all how
a coach goes about recruiting NBA talent when they're evaluating kids
at the HS level?  Listen closely now.  A High School All-American does
NOT, repeat, DOES NOT, automatically become a collegiate All-American.
Dean's said this often, and Rick Pitino echoed this sentiment almost
verbatim recently.  This rather obvious logic (which seems to have
eluded you, BTW) obviously extends to the next level.  A HS AA does
NOT automatically become an NBA money-maker.


> Carolina has outrecruited IU badly the past 20 years, as a look at
> NBA rosters proves.  

If your thesis that "the production of NBA talent between Bob and [Dean]
is proportionate to the relative amounts of NBA talent recruited in"
were true, you'd be able to prove that Carolina has indeed outrecruited IU 
(badly, BTW) over the last 20 years.  All we'd need_do is objectively tally 
up the players each has placed in the NBA (probably want to develop a formula 
that included years of service, productivity, etc.) and compute the "winner".

Unfortunately though this theory falls flat on its face on numerous
scores, among them being the opinion of most NBA experts that Dean does
indeed **develop** professional talent, not just recruit it.  The best
most recent example of this is Rick Fox, who was a marginally talented
HS ballplayer who wasn't considered a big prize by most recruiting services.
Fox ended up being a 1st round NBA pick now logging boo-koo minutes for
the Boston Celtics.  Hubert Davis is another player barely recruited by
Division 1A.  He's now receiving NBA interest, although admittedly his 
odds are still somewhat long.


> This must be true, unless you believe the igKnorrant jive-bull about how 
> coaching for meaningless end-of-season peaks somehow saps a young main a 
> his NBA potential...

Never said an end-of-season peak was "meaningless".  The NCAA Tournament
is far and away the biggest college hoops event of the year, though it 
certainly doesn't render "meaning-less" all the other games, Titles, and 
Tournaments that take place during the season.  Never said doing well in
the NCAA Tourney "saps a young main of his NBA potential", either.  Dean's
NCAA Tournament record indicates he's been to NINE (9) Final 4's and has
recorded records in consecutive Sweet 16 appearances and total "W's".  
Bob hasn't even been to as many Final 4's as CoachK, and has had several
embarassing early-round exits.  His three (3) Title runs are a great
accomplishment, no question.  He's got more than Dean, no question.  If
that's your singular metric there's no point in even discussing the issue,
but you've long-recognized that this benchmark is far too simplistic and
Intellectually Bankrupt.


- ACC Chris
    
17.2469STRATA::CAPPELMon Dec 02 1991 13:4929
    Wrong Chris....
    
    Bob turns marginal talent into NBA jobs... Name in the last 20 years,
    recruits by Bob that were considered top 20 players that didn't make
    the NBA.  In response I can name the players that Bob helped towards
    NBA careers that never would have made it....
    
    Also who has had better talent over the last 20 years, NC or Indiana?
    
    Name a team that has had more talent over the last 20 years than NC.
    
    Why hasn't Dean won more than 1 lucky title(thanks Fred Brown)?
    
    Who has won more titles in the last 20 years, Smith or Knight?
    
    Also name the players from NC that would not have made the NBA if they had
    played in Knight's system or any other top coach?
    
    The burden of proof is on you.....  Worthy, Perkins, Davis, Jordan,
    Daugherty, Reid, etc would have made the pros in any of the top 100
    programs in the country.  So if we compare the others fringe players,
    I believe we will find that Knight puts more fringe players of less
    talent into the NBA than Smith does.
    
    Cap
    
    P.S  Please list the scouting reports on Fox as a H.S.(with sources). 
    He was in the middle of a big recruiting war(NC, IU and at least two
    other big schools in the Midwest) so he must have been talented.
17.2470More Heels laughter ...SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeMon Dec 02 1991 13:5444
Two items of hilarity at you-know-who's expense ...

SI had a small blurb in their recent issue (with Jimmy Mac on the cover) 
describing the new Alexander Julian threads the Tar Heels are wearing this 
year.   Apparently, Julian, a '69 UNC grad, did his research and discovered 
that the original Carolina Blue color used by the school back in the 
early part of the century is a shade "icier" than the almost-pastel baby 
blue used up until this year.

So the Heels' new threads are made with this "old" Carolina Blue color 
which means that all 21,500+ seats in the Deandome are now the wrong color.

Also, in yesterday's Sunday paper, a small article discussed a 
semi-serious research project conducted by a couple of Duke grads at last 
year's Duke basketball games.   The aim of the project was to discover 
which one of the legendary Cameron Crazies' foul shot distraction 
techniques was the most effective.   That is, which one of their wild 
antics caused the most opposing foul shots to be missed.

First they had to come up with names for the different techniques ... They 
identified The Hop, The Sway, The Oh No! Moan, The Eggbeater and so on.   
None of them were really all that effective as opponents shot about 64% 
anyway.   But there was one that was most effective ... "Shhhh ... HEY!!!" 
where they all whisper "Shhhh ..." and then yell "HEY !!!" at the 
exact point of release caused the most problems as opponents shot only 36% 
at the charity stripe for that one.

But they needed to firm up their research and make sure that they had a 
"control group" to measure the Crazies against.  So, they needed to find a 
school where the fans made little or no attempt to distract enemy free 
throw shooters.

So where did they go ???   You got it.  Eight miles down the road where the 
semi-comatose Heels fans remind you of Centre Court at Wimbledon.    There 
they found that opponents shot 66% of their free throws with little or no 
distractions whatsoever.   So, the notorious Duke fans gained a slim 2% 
advantage over their sleepy neighbors down the road.

Bob Hunt

P.S.  "The Hop" is the one that blew my mind lasted year when I saw it.   
Imagine the Duke student band all dressed in blue and white rugby shirts 
standing behind the basket.   Then they all start to hop up and down in 
unison in alternate rows and the effect is mind-blowing.   
17.2471ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Dec 02 1991 14:346
    Cap, no way will he talk FACT with you.  His style is to talk
    INNUENDO and IMPLICATION and INSINUATION and CLAIMS but what you're
    doing is trying to take him into the haidy realm of FACT and I aim
    afraid that the lil' fella just ain't gonna be up to THAT.
    
    Big10 MrT
17.2472A knock on Carolina or simply good taste?GUSHER::WAUGAMANMon Dec 02 1991 15:167
                   
    Here's to Carolina (for whatever reason, even apathy) for not engaging
    in those foul shot distraction shenanigans.  One of the things I
    like the least about college basketball...
    
    glenn
    
17.2473There's talk of Dean moving several games back to Carmichael ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 02 1991 15:2826
    Bob, you couldn't be more wrong about the reason Carolina fans don't
    try to distract the opponents free throws.  The reason is NOT because
    our fans are comatose (although I'm a harsh critic of this very thing),
    but rather because Dean flat-out won't allow it.  He believes waving to
    distract an opponent is unsportsmanlike, and even took the microphone
    at one point in Carmichael to admonish our fans for this very thing.
    
    If you want *real* hilarity though, you oughta see this weeks Carolina
    Blue, which has a column of  "Do's and Don'ts" for attending basketball 
    games in the Smith Center.  Among them is this nugget:
    
    DON'T: Scream "Sit down!" when a Carolina fan seated in front of you
    	   stands to cheer a good play be the Tar Heels.  After all, this
    	   is college basketball, not a production of "Phantom of the
           Opera."  Loosen up.
    
    Unreal.  The sad part of this is that in the pre-Dean Dome days we had
    one of the biggest home court advantages in the ACC.  Phil Ford sez he
    only hung his head 3 times in his whole college career when playing at
    Carmichael.  The place was LOUD.  Then the fat-cat alums basically
    built a temple for themselves so they apparently could be spared the
    discomfort of sitting next to screaming students, even going so far
    as to name the place after Dean against his wishes.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2474Carmichael memories ...SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeMon Dec 02 1991 15:3719
I saw a classic in Carmichael Auditorium.   Early January 1979, Virginia 
visiting North Carolina.   Big snowstorm in central NC and the only chance 
my buddy and I (on the way back from a week in Nawlins) had to get in to 
the game was if fans called in to the ticket office and said they couldn't 
make it because of the snow.

We got in just before tip-off and watched a great game.  The Hoos lost it 
in double overtime as Mike O'Koren got away with a charge and converted a 
three-point play seconds after Jeff Lamp got whistled and fouled out for 
the same exact move.

Great place ...

Bob Hunt

P.S.  If you guys want to think that the Baby Blue Faithful are being 
"sporting" in keeping quiet for free throws, go right ahead.   Whatever 
pulls your wagon.   The humor in the situation, to me, is the extreme 
differences between the delightful Dookies and the snoring Heels.
17.2475Skeert?ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Dec 02 1991 15:473
    Whatsamatta, Crockmeister.  Afraid to answer Cap's fine questions?
    
    MrT
17.2476Incomprehensible arrogance to tell a fellow fan to sit down ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 02 1991 15:5215
    > delightful Dookies and snoring Heels
    
    So Bob, was Carmichael loud when you were there in '79?  My guess is it
    was.
    
    I don't believe for a second that Duke has better fans than we do. 
    Trouble is our true fans have been bought out by a bunch of snobbish,
    egotistical blue bloods who see attendance at a UNC game (and the ACC
    tourney, of course) as a social event.  I'd much prefer to sit next to
    somebody who absolutely loathes Carolina [Gee, do we have any of these
    types around?  ;^)] than some idiot Carolina "fan" who would actually
    have the audacity to tell me to sit down if I stood to cheer a play.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2477yup, he's skeert awrightANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Dec 02 1991 16:0010
    Crock-o'-holic, I sometimes wonder about why you badmouth the 
    Carolina alums so much, until I remind myself that... you're not 
    an alum yourself.
    
    Maybe if you WERE a alumnus you'd have enough gumption to answer
    Cap's questions.  Instead a blabbing on and on about the good old
    days in the old Star Hell stadium (good old days you never experienced)
    you'd own up to some a your false claims.
    
    MrT
17.2478CAMONE::WAYThe King of the Droods(tm)Mon Dec 02 1991 16:013
Gee, I wonder if there's much perrier and brie at a UNC game????

17.2479THE CRAZIESSHALOT::MEDVIDSteeeempy, you eeeediot!Mon Dec 02 1991 16:0711
>    I don't believe for a second that Duke has better fans than we do. 

    Duke not only has better fans than Carolina, they have better fans than
    anyone!  Original and intelligent.

    Just read any of the basketball pubs that do articles on what team has
    the best fans.  Duke is always on top of the list.  No picking and
    choosing here, Chris, on which rag has merit and which doesn't.  Duke
    is it for fandom at its best.

    	--dan'l
17.2480You wouldn't believe these types ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 02 1991 16:1012
    Aw shadup, MorT.  99.9% of the Carolina alum aren't the problem, and
    that's a fact regardless of whether I'm one or not.  The problem is the
    .01% who built the Dean Dome (cash made in large part to their
    cancer-causing cigarette production ...) who now consider it their
    god-given right to sit on their butts the whole game and politely
    applaud the "home" team, if it can even be called that.
    
    I'd publish the full list of "Do's and Don'ts" on attending a Carolina
    game except that it's wholly embarassing and revolting.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2481Soup takes Powder No. 4,683,194SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeMon Dec 02 1991 16:166
-    I'd publish the full list of "Do's and Don'ts" on attending a Carolina
-    game except that it's wholly embarassing and revolting.

In other words, you're avoiding the truth yet again.

Bob Hunt
17.2482Obnoxious and arrogant, too.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 02 1991 16:217
    re: dan'l
    
    If being racist and unsportsmanlike are the standards to be achieved
    for "good" fandom, I agree.  Duke fans are the best.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2483We've been through this racist stuff before...SHALOT::MEDVIDSteeeempy, you eeeediot!Mon Dec 02 1991 16:4314
    Obnoxious, yes.
    
    Arrogant, yes and with a right to be.
    
    Unsportsmanlike...nope, just giving their team an extreme advantage
    that you're jealous of.
    
    Racist...up to interpretation.  If "JR can't read (Reid)" is racist to
    you, then I guess Duke (that mighty institution of conservative
    thinking...NOT) is racist.  But as racist as the word "N****R" written
    on the Harvey Gantt signs on the UNC campus last year?  Let he who is
    without sin...
    
    	--dan'l
17.2484SMARTT::CHILDSG.Bush, unconvicted criminalMon Dec 02 1991 16:5816
 Direct quote taken from friday's game "Will Eric Montross reach his potential
 that was expected and predicted of him or just turn into another mechanical
 big man due to the Carolina style..."

  Dick Vitale.....

 yes the man who calls Dean, Michaelangelo has taken a stab at him again.
 Is the fact that the emperor has no clothes finally being exposed to the
 world?

 I also notice that the other night against the Citadel when they closed the
 game to 5 with a few mintues left, Dean's buddy where quick to blow the
 whistle and restore order....

 mike
17.2485Not funny. Not at all ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 02 1991 17:0322
    > Let he who is without sin ...
    
    That being the case it's impossible for anyone to morally judge
    another.  Don't think that's what you had in mind...
    
    Comparing the two (2) incidents is a joke.  The incident of vandalism
    that took place on UNC's campus was a crime in everyones book.  Open
    and shut case.  Whoever did it (and it's likely it was an act by a
    single individual, perhaps someone who doesn't even go to UNC) should
    obviously be punished.
    
    The actions at Cameroon are far more sinister and subtle, for here we 
    have a bunch of elitists students who, despite supposed soaring SAT 
    scores (unless, a_course, daddy was a_alum) didn't realize the racist 
    content of their message.
    
    Me and Dean's reaction was the same:
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2486Just what are you talking about?!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 02 1991 17:0812
    Mike, your facts are so wacked-out your "quote" carries no credibility. 
    First, we didn't even have a game on Friday.  We *did* have a very
    tough game @ Houston Wednesday (Houston, BTW, beat your BigLeast bro
    Villanova by 30 big ones) which we pulled out at the wire.  The
    Carolina/Houston game was carried on Prime Network and picked up by
    Sports South.  (i.e. Vitale wasn't doing the announcing ...)
    
    We did play Citadel earlier in the week, but that game was a blowout
    after about five (5) minutes.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2487RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOStop Bush/Quayle Wetlands Massacre..Mon Dec 02 1991 17:105
    Hey Mike - I think Chris is calling you a liar.
    
    You gonna take that?
    
    Conrad
17.2488Montross a (gasp!) big man bust?GUSHER::WAUGAMANMon Dec 02 1991 17:1516
    
    Yeah, I heard Vitale saying that there is now serious doubt whether
    Montross will develop into the much-hyped player he was supposed
    to be coming out of high school.  If he doesn't, ACChris will have
    to erase those many Montross quips he's fed us over the past two
    years from his "Praise Be to Smif" Spiritual Quote Book...
         
    I won't get into who the better fans are, Carolina's or Duke's,
    but I'm not a believer in "anything goes" when it comes to giving
    your team an advantage.  Sportsmanship does extend beyond the playing
    field.  Fans can show their unabashed support without making asses
    of themselves.  The Dukies are sometimes intelligent, sometimes
    asinine, but they always seem to be skirting that fine line (much
    like the Stanford band in football).
    
    glenn
17.2489RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOStop Bush/Quayle Wetlands Massacre..Mon Dec 02 1991 17:239
    Glenn -
    
    If Montross doen't pan out, Soup will invoke the "J.R. Rule" and call
    Montross an immature baby that Dean washed his hand of.  Afterall, Dean
    can't hold everyone's hand.  (That's from the Smifa Scripture that says
    Dean can take credit for all successes in his players' lives, but can't
    take criticism for any failures...)
    
    JD
17.2490ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Dec 02 1991 17:3917
    >Whoever did it (it's likely that it was an act by a single individual,
    >perhaps someone who didn't even attend Carolina) should obviously be
    >punished.
    
    A single individual who didn't even attend Carolina... like you,
    ACCrook?  And while you're conceding to liberalisms left and right,
    could you huff and puff a bit about how the U.S. Government should
    finally punish UNC-Chapel Hell for its longstanding policy of racial
    discrimination (an act much more damaging to black America than a mere
    slogan).
    
    Answer me, ACCrockmeister: Skeert to answer Cap's fact-based questions?
    As Cap said, the burden of proof is on you, and weighs heavily on all
    your false claims, fantastic assertions, and other hallucinations to
    boot.
    
    MrT
17.2491At least *try* to stick to the subject, MorT.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 02 1991 17:418
    > A single individual who didn't even attend Carolina... like you,
    > [ACC Chris]?
    
    Are you accusing *me* of acts of racism and vandalism?  If not, I can
    see no relevance whatsoever to this comment.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2492ACCrisp: Haggardly Refuses to Document Own ClaimsANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Dec 02 1991 17:4410
    Too bad Eric's Dad forebade him to attend IU due to the Landon Turner
    court settlement imbroglio with Bob.  Bob's a main who turned complete
    stiffs like Steve Downing, Kent Benson, Ray Tolbert, and Uwe Blab, 
    into NBA players, benchwarmers, sure, but NBA players making all that
    money and symbolizing pure big main coaching capability.. just think a 
    what he coulda did with a more talented individual like Eric!
    
    Eric screwed up.  CBA, here he comes !!
    
    MrT
17.2493ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Dec 02 1991 17:469
    >Are you accusing *me* of acts of racism and vandalism?  If not, blah
    >blah blah blaaa-a-aaah !!
    
    No, I'm only pointing out that you dismiss the involvement of Chapel
    Hell students in a deplorable act and imply that it was more likely
    the work of mere non-Carolina-matriculated vermin... like someone we
    also know to be in that category.  [you]
    
    MrT
17.2494LUNER::BROOKSStardate 12.06.91 - BE THERE !Mon Dec 02 1991 17:5011
    re .2484
    
    Cap, I gotta tell ya, BLAMing Clemson-style officiating for the loss is
    beneath ya ... you and T know how to let the Soup-meister off the hook.
    
    Boy ....
    
    As for Montross, I'm sorry, but he has stiff, Mark Eaton-style written
    all over him. No system in the world is going to save that clown.
    
    Doc
17.2495ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Dec 02 1991 17:5412
    dan'l,
    
    Before you get too hot and bothered over these wonderful Dookies I
    must remind you that their alleged superiority stems from the simple
    fack that the seats nearest the floor are reserved for students only.
    I know of no other arena where this is the case.  In most venues the
    closer you are to the hardwood the fewer the students.  This
    enlightened policy gives a huge advantage to the Blew Devils, but also
    makes their student-fans seem much better relatively than they really
    are.  It's only a proximate matter!
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom
17.2496Awful, awful early condemnation.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 02 1991 18:0817
    Boy, this Eric Montross bashing must be giving Doug Ross
    thigh-shuddering pleasure for sure.  Amazing how fast people
    are to condemn a kid to comparisons to mediocre IU big men.  Yuk.
    
    Let's try and remember that Eric is just starting his *sophomore*
    season.  He came on nicely at the end of his frosh campaign - there's
    no reason to think his improvement won't continue, especially
    considering Dean's doing the teaching.
    
    Eric Montross is no "clown".  He's big, strong, and smart.  He's gonna
    start for North Carolina for three (3) more years.  He's gonna pull
    down a slew of rebounds before he's through.  The unanswered question
    is how much he'll improve offensively, and I'm not yet ready to pass
    judgement on this.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2497ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Dec 02 1991 18:1114
    >Montross... has stiff, Mark Eaton-style written all over him, no 
    >system in the world's gonna save that clown.
    
    Save him from what, Midnight?  Save him from languishing in the NBA
    for 12 years or so at $2,000,000 per shot?  
    
    Better put: No overrated incompetent coach in the world's gonna stop
    the stiff, Mark Eaton-style Montross from making it in the NBA.  And
    nor will the world's top scientific-objectivist-analysts stop a certain
    faux Star Hell alum from attributing credit to that overrated incompetent
    for having stood by as the invitable NBA draft pick is taken.
    
    MrT 
    
17.2498STRATA::CAPPELMon Dec 02 1991 18:1113
    
    Doc,
    
    Where did I blame any loss on the refs????  You're halucinating again.
    :-)
    
    ACChris, 
    
    Are you still IgKnorring(tm) the direct questions or just to skeert?
    After the beatings I've given you, I doubt if you'll ever take me on
    in a straight debate concerning Carolina. :-)
    
    Cap
17.2499FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Mon Dec 02 1991 18:1315
    Curry Hicks Cage at the University of Massachusetts has its seats
    closest to the floor reserved for students.  While only half the size
    of Cameron Indoor Stadium, and while we are a state school as compared
    to a snooty private school, we may not be as clever but we're plenty
    loud.
    
    I also see it's time for the "my conference is better than your
    conference" arguments.  Oh, boy.  Can anyone please @BROKENRECORD.COM
    and then answer what difference does it make?  The other half of the
    com stream is, of course, the perpetual arguments about Dean Smith. 
    Whoopie.
    
    College basketball season is 2 weeks old and I'm already tired of it.
    
    John
17.2500HPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Mon Dec 02 1991 18:193
       Cap,
       Jist add them to his long list a unanswered questions.
                                       Denny
17.2501Nice work, Denny. (Gittin' .2500 that is ...)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 02 1991 18:231
    
17.2502HPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Mon Dec 02 1991 18:272
       So Chris, didja pick a day for your Bull appearance yet?
                                          Denny
17.2503BSS::JCOTANCHMon Dec 02 1991 18:2811
    
>    The other half of the
>    com stream is, of course, the perpetual arguments about Dean Smith. 
>    Whoopie.
    
>    College basketball season is 2 weeks old and I'm already tired of it.
    
    Where you been, John?  This has been going on all summer and fall.
 
    
    Joe
17.2504Bah, HumbugFSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Mon Dec 02 1991 18:4116
    I'm not getting tired of the arguments, I got tired of them a long time
    ago.  I'm tired of the hoops season because the arguments have just
    gotten more intense since then.  It's the same lousy stuff we've been
    arguing about for the last umpteen years and I just wish it would go
    away.  It never will, though.  Like the folks from south of the
    Mason-Dixon Line who are still fighting the Civil War, this argument
    will go on forever, ad nauseum, even after Dean Smith retires.
    
    Well, here's my personal stand.  Other than my own school, I'm going to
    attempt to boycott college basketball for the rest of the season.  I
    probably won't have any luck, because it's so ubiquitous, but I'm sure
    as well going to try.  Y'all argue about Dean vs Bob, Dean vs K,
    Carolina vs Duke, ACC vs whoever and have fun.  A pox on all your
    houses.
    
    John
17.2505;-)GUSHER::WAUGAMANMon Dec 02 1991 18:5218
                                                
>                         -< Awful, awful early condemnation. >-
>
>    Boy, this Eric Montross bashing must be giving Doug Ross
>    thigh-shuddering pleasure for sure.  Amazing how fast people
>    are to condemn a kid to comparisons to mediocre IU big men.  Yuk.
 
    Hey, it was your personal fave Dick Vitale that said that stuff
    (Dickie's really been making you look bad lately, huh?).  You 
    claimed Mikey was "whacked out" and asked where he heard the 
    Montross assessment, and I'm confirming it.  Vitale explicitly said
    that the Carolina system was to the disadvantage of a player of 
    Montross' personal style.
    
    I think you owe Mike an apology, Chris.  Bad.  Very bad.
    
    glenn
     
17.2506ACChris: Just factless or feckless to boot?ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Dec 02 1991 18:5919
    Crock, you gonna answer Cap's questions or not?  If not, then please
    report on why not.  For my dollar, I think you're too yellow-bellied
    to belly up to the bar on this.
    
    re: John Hendry
    
    Yeah where ya been?  We've been at this since mid-June.  Things are
    heating up cuz 1) it's hoops saison, and, 2) Crockmeister is cornered
    and is snapping and yipping like a quivering little chi-hua-hua with
    a baby blew rionbb tied to his rodent-like tail.
    
    Quiveringcornered, yipping, skeert.t.
    
    So, if you're gonna lay blame for this rathole the finger must be
    leveled at your bud ACChri  We coulda settled this whole months agogo
    but he persists in launching fantastic assertions on one paw and 
    refusing to answer fair fact-based questions on the other paw.
     
    MrT
17.2507Tired of what, Ninj ??? Reason ??? Fact ??? Bluster ???SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeMon Dec 02 1991 19:1317
C'mon, Ninj, you of all noters should be able to see the ongoing Smith 
debates as some of the finest fact-based reasoning and classical rhetoric 
in this entire conference ...

We have very well thought out premises.  We use and document factual 
information properly.   We examine all possible angles of an issue.   And 
then we form the correct conclusions backed up with exquisite deductive 
reasoning.

It ain't our fault that the Baby Blue Bigot don't wanna quaff from the well 
of truth.  Sure, it seems like a perpetual rathole but that ain't our cross 
to bear ... we've given him every chance in the book (and then some) to 
come clean but he just cain't bring himself to do it ...

You cain lead a horse to water but he'll igKnorr his thirst forever ...

bob Hunt  
17.2508with curly Q'sANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Dec 02 1991 19:164
    And while he's standing there igKnorring the clear water he'll lay
    some foot high dark Dairy Queens to boot.
    
    MrT
17.2509C'MON CROCKMEISTER ANSWER THE QUESTIONS WILLYA?!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Dec 02 1991 19:161
    
17.2510More ...SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeMon Dec 02 1991 19:2321
Oh, and half of the lower ring in University Hall in Charlottesville is 
reserved for students.   We used to stand outside for *hours* waiting for 
the doors to open.   I saw many a Wahoos game from the front row ...

I also believe that NC State holds a good portion of the courtside seats at 
Reynolds open for the students, too.   Feinstein wrote a section in his 
1988 book "A Season Inside" where he described a State game during the 
Christmas break.   State had sold the students' courtside seats because 
they thought the kids would be outta town.    But a lot of them stayed in 
town just to see the game and there were all kinds of problems near game 
time.   Finally, they just flung open the doors and the students rushed in 
and grabbed their seats.    Then State had to scramble to set up folding 
chairs for the people who had tix to the student seats.   The place was way 
over capacity and they were lucky a fire marshal didn't happen by.

Cameron is different because the entire lower section is reserved for the 
Crazies.   It's a huge advantage especially since the students also sit 
right behind the opponent's bench.   Ralph Sampson used to complain all the 
time about the students sitting behind him in Cameron.

Bob Hunt
17.2511CNTROL::CHILDSG.Bush, unconvicted criminalMon Dec 02 1991 19:3319
 John just for you let me state the Pixies have made UMASS famous they cut
 a song about them. 

 T the new album is great my buddy didn't know what the heil he was talking
 about. Sure it's heavier but that ain't bad. he made me tape of it and after
 listening to it I ran to the store for the CD....

 Thanks Glenn for the confirmation and I don't want no apology I live to be
 Whacky!!!!!!!

 ;^)

 Hell I might even root for Wake tonight so Mr. Rodgers can build his confidence
 so he'll destroy the poor undertalented TarHeils.........

 GO PIRATES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 mike
17.2512ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Dec 02 1991 19:394
    Bob, mike, what's YOUR theory as to why ACCrisp won't, cain't,
    answer Cap's fair-minded fact-based questions?
    
    MrT
17.2513CAMONE::WAYThe King of the Droods(tm)Tue Dec 03 1991 09:4211
Well, it's a slight change of pace, but UConn beat Wake Forest lasted
night at the Hartford Civic Center....

Yea! Huskies!


It's a good thing they didn't play Virginia cause I wouldn't have knowed
who to root for.....


'Saw
17.2514YawnFSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Tue Dec 03 1991 10:4318
    Well, it has gotten worse since the start of the college season.  And I
    will admit that some of the best writing and debating (and if said
    debating was taking place in Mass, the term you get would be closer to
    da troof) takes place in this particular note which is why I don't skip
    it.
    
    Yet at the same time, I can predict what's going to be in here with
    frightening regularity.  NC Chris will say something complementary
    about either the Heels or Saint Dean.  The anti-Heels will attack him
    from every different direction.  Not only won't Chris admit to being
    wrong but he'll never accept that Dean or Carolina can do any wrong. 
    Some of the antis will admit that Dean is OK in some respects and Chris
    will take that as a victory.  Some folks will have woodies over every
    UNC win, more people will have woodies over every UNC loss.  The ACC,
    Big Ten or Big East will alternately be trumpeted as the best
    conference in the land.  No argument will ever be settled.
    
    John
17.2515CAMONE::WAYThe King of the Droods(tm)Tue Dec 03 1991 10:486
Hey, John.....  UCONN won!!!!


many 8^)

'Saw
17.2516FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Tue Dec 03 1991 10:547
    Oh, and one other thing - North Carolina will lose in the NCAA
    tournament, to an opponent they shouldn't lose to, and we'll have the
    excuses and why it was an excellent loss.
    
    Frank, BFD.  :-)  UMass won the Great Alaska Shootout.
    
    John
17.2517Scoundrels, scoundrels everywhere ...CSCOAC::ROLLINS_RTue Dec 03 1991 10:5412
	It seems to be a lot like Congress.  There are loud, sometimes
	abrasive people on each side of the argument.  A lot of things
	get said, but nothing ever gets accomplished.  People toot their
	own horns without ever trying to look at the other side.  The
	few reasonable attempts to "debate" an issue are drowned out with
	the many unrasonable ones who only crave attention for themselves.
	And those not directly involved become either apathetic or disgusted
	by the whole state of events.

	I must admit, I enjoy seeing the obnoxious episodes on both sides
	get their due in here, just like I enjoy seeing Congressmen squirm
	when their political shenaningans are brought into public view.
17.2518ACChris, nostarring in Kindergarten Cop-OutANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Dec 03 1991 10:5510
    >No argument will ever be settled.
    
    Yeah, cuz the meaty quetions will never be answered by a certain
    master of the quotidien obfuscation.  We cain't be blamed for that.
    Credit me and those like me for accepting rlitby dealing with
    posited fact.  Discredit ACCrock for spawning jive-bull, then slinging
    it, getting most a it all over himself, and then trumpeting what a 
    pretty design he made.
    
    MrT
17.2519Bad news for Carolina fans ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Dec 03 1991 11:159
    Speaking of Eric Montross, there's trouble on the horizon.  Seems Eric
    mashed up his ankle pretty bad, which is why he didn't play in either
    game this weekend.  He was scheduled for x-rays yesterday - no word
    yet.  [I woulda presented this information earlier, but our lovely
    Atlanta Constitution is lucky if it even prints the Carolina box score
    for a game that ends at 10:30pm, let alone details like this. :^(]
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2520Ninj, don't avoid the game because of political bickering!!!!CST17::FARLEYDSA = Drood(tm) Supporters AnonymousTue Dec 03 1991 11:1611
    Ninj,
    Just take a step back from the fray and enjoy the sport for sports sake
    and not who they are/represent.  Believe me, there's nothing to
    match the enjoyment of watching college BBall, even if you haven't
    decided on what team to root for.
    
    Speaking of BBAll, is Gugliotti from NC state a lottery pick or what?
    *I* was very very impressed with his play last night.
    
    Kev
    
17.2521Details of The Greatest Comeback ever in college hoops ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Dec 03 1991 11:2437
    John Hendry correctly answered my Trivia Question as to what the
    significance of March 2, 1974 was.  Apparently SI had a note in
    recently about this.  Not sure why ...  In any case the correct answer
    was that the greatest comeback in the history of college basketball
    took place at Carmichael Auditorium that night.
    
    Anyway anytime a Carolina fan starts feeling down cause the Nerds are
    riding high should recall what happened on that fateful night.
    
    Here's what happened:
    
    o Duke lead Carolina by eight (8) points with seventeen (17) seconds to
      play.  
    
    o Bobby Jones hit two (2) free throws to cut the lead to six.
    
    o Walter Davis stole the inbounds pass and fed John Kuester to cut
      the lead to 4.
    
    o Carolina's pressure forced Duke to throw the ball away trying to
      inbounds it.
    
    o Davis missed a short jumper, missed a tip, but Jones scored to cut
      the lead to two (2) with four (4) seconds to play.
    
    o Carolina fouled Pete Kramer with three (3) seconds left.  He missed
      the one-and-one.  Ed Stahl rebounded and UNC took time, still three
      (3) seconds left.  Mitch Kupchak threw inbounds to Davis, who took
      three (3) dribbles and fired from near midcourt and banked it in!
      
      (In todays era of the 3-point shot, the game would've ended then.)
    
    o With the game tied at 86, we headed to OT.  UNC went down by 4 but
      came back to win, 96-92.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2522CAMONE::WAYThe King of the Droods(tm)Tue Dec 03 1991 11:467
It's not really any big deal.

Snuffy had NO idea how much time was left, so he was just playin' 'em
as if they had 4:17 left......


'Saw
17.2523Pirates rule on wednesaday!!!!!CNTROL::CHILDSG.Bush, unconvicted criminalTue Dec 03 1991 12:1211
 but is Montross really injuried? Could her possibly be faking it so as to be
 redshirted so he can learn more? Probably not. Does it matter that he's
 injuried? Probably not.

 T, I think it's in the name IgKnorr(tm) isn't it?

 Before the season gets going to far along we simply must have a reposting
 of the Weasel Org-Chart....it's review time....

 mike
17.2524FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Tue Dec 03 1991 12:1316
    Kevin, I can think a lots a other things that match the enjoyment of
    watching college basketball.  Some a them are even sports related.  :-)
    Like football, hockey and pro hoops.
    
    Seriously, it's down on the bottom of my list for things that have
    nothing to do with political bickering.  It's the transformation of
    coaches into cult heroes instead of concentrating on the players, the
    over-control of the game on the floor instead of letting the players
    play, the seemingly endless parade to the foul line in the last 3
    minutes or so of a game (which I can't stand even if I'm watching my
    own team play in person), the seemingly endless stream of timeouts down
    the stretch and the general air of sleaze around the sport.
    
    Sorry, you won't transform me.
    
    John
17.2525How 'bout a game someone actually remembers?GUSHER::WAUGAMANTue Dec 03 1991 12:5018
    
    Greatest comeback ever, Chris?  I'd have to reserve that honor for
    a more important game, like maybe Loyola's 15-point second half
    rally in the 1963 championship game against defending two-time champ
    (and going for a unprecedented third straight title) Cincinnati, or 
    NC State's thievery of the 1974 semi-finals against UCLA.  Those 
    were *huge* games, games where the coaches were faced with the
    prospect of going home for good, but (and this is something totally
    unfamiliar to Dean) somehow amidst the pressure and adversity made
    the necessary adjustments, pulled the game out and went on to win the 
    whole shoooting match...
    
    I'm sure if you want analyze it from purely a technical perspective,
    though, we can find some even flukier comeback in a Podunk-Podunk
    State game somewhere in the annals of basketball history...
    
    glenn
    
17.2526ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Dec 03 1991 13:5924
    >the over-control of the game on the floor instead of letting the
    >players play, the seemingly endless parade...
    
    ... of 96 substitutions in a Final Four game would certainly qualify
    as the most egregious example of coaching over-control in the annals
    a the game a college hoops.
    
    Greatest comeback ever?  HAVE to be Kansas, led by that crook Larry
    Brown, against Michigan State in '89.  Less than 2 seconds to play,
    inbounding from the wrong end of the court, nine seconds on the replay
    before the winning shot is launched for the Final Four berth.
    
    Think a it, appreciate its sleazy majesty as the game's Greatest 
    Comeback Ever: The game had been over 7 1/2 seconds and STILL the 
    JaySquawks, with the help of a homer clock operator since banned by
    the NCAA, was able to pull it out by giving it the "old college try."
    
    And it didn't hurt that their superstar's dad was just coincidentally
    taken of the public dole and hired as a asst. coach in order to recruit
    the kid in the first place.
    
    What a wonderful college career from beginning to end.  Greatest ever!
    
    MrT 
17.2527CST17::FARLEYDSA = Drood(tm) Supporters AnonymousTue Dec 03 1991 14:029
    John, (my we are getting formal here aren't we?)
    
    The zebra's let them play last night, especially the NC State - Pitt
    game.  Too bad ya missed it, it was a very very good game.
    
    Try it, you'll like it!!!!!
    
    me
    
17.2528FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Tue Dec 03 1991 14:247
    Kev,
    
    It's not the overcontrol by the zebras I mind because that part of the
    game has loosened up in the last couple of years.  It's the overcontrol
    by the coaches.  Let the kids play!
    
    Ninj
17.2529they did.... 2 bad ya missed it 8*)CST17::FARLEYDSA = Drood(tm) Supporters AnonymousTue Dec 03 1991 14:351
    
17.2530LUNER::BROOKSStardate 12.06.91 - BE THERE !Tue Dec 03 1991 15:2218
    
    re .2492
    
>   Bob's a main who turned complete
>    stiffs like Steve Downing, Kent Benson, Ray Tolbert, and Uwe Blab, 
>    into NBA players, benchwarmers, sure, but NBA players making all that
>    money and symbolizing pure big main coaching capability
    
    HAHAHHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Bob did NOTHING with those stiffs. Fack is, that the NBA is so hung up
    on height, that Blab et al was drafted in spite of better, albeit,
    shorter talent.
    
    If they were coming out today, they would not be drafted. 
    
    Bob did nothing with them T (except maybe put in a good word for them
    with a soft-hearted GM) , but thanks for the laugh anyhow ...
17.2531RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOMacaulay Culkin makes me puke!Tue Dec 03 1991 15:328
    Doc -
    
    Sorry, but you don't have a clue.  Benson, Tolbert and Blab would be
    drafted today - tomorrow - and into the forseeable future.   I admit I
    dont' know much about Downing.  In fact, given their problems - the
    Mavs would probably draft Blab AGAIN if they could.  
    
    JD
17.2532ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Dec 03 1991 15:3635
    Oh, you're so RIGHT, Midnight!  These guys *were* indeed complete
    stiffs.  (It's heartening to see you to allow the scales fall from
    your eyes at least long enough to agree with MrT on this.  I don't
    agree with what they all are saying about you.  You are NOT a complete
    heel!)
    
    But you would have us believe that "softhearted (NBA) GMs" got them
    into the league.  Naw, they got in there cuz a their height and their
    basic skeels.  YES.  You are so RIGHT, sir!  They probably wouldn't
    be drafted now.
    
    And you would have us believe that Bob "didn't do a thing with them."
    
    Hmmmm.  More Midnight black-outs?  I think so: With Downing he won a
    Big10 crown and gave Bill Walton his only skeer en route to his first
    Title.  With Benson he won multiple Big10 crowns and a... Title, going
    undefeated for two regular seasons and for one entire season.  With
    Tolbert he won ANOTHER Title, and setting a record average winning 
    margin for the NCAA tourney.  With Blab he continued winning Big10 
    crowns, albeit he admittedly had to wait until his departure and
    replacement by yet *another* big main stiff in the unrecruited Dean
    Garrett to chalk up yet ANOTHER Title.
    
    I despair in you blindness, Midnight.  For you have apparently bought
    off on the ACCrockism that Bob did all these Great things with players
    you admit were stiffs talent-wise but performed well enough in college
    to ACHIEVE yet steel "didn't do anything" with them in terms of
    preparing them skeel-wise to at become NBA stiffs (and millionaires) 
    that they wouldn't have become had it not been for Bob.
    
    Explain *that* willya.
    
    Haw haw haw.  Dr. Contradiction is more like it!  Haa.
    
    MrT 
17.2533Blab, Wennington, Ellis for Wood, Schrempf ...LUNER::BROOKSStardate 12.06.91 - BE THERE !Tue Dec 03 1991 16:343
    re .2531
    
    And that's why Dallas is in the hole they're in now ....
17.2534da GoogsANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Dec 03 1991 17:309
    re: a few back
    
    Rat on about Gugliotti.  First time I saw him was that wild game 
    against Virginia last year.  He's big, active, coordinated, and
    cain bang it home.  Definitely a first rounder.  A real competitor
    too.  Had to like last year's NC State squad, what with Rodney and
    Corch and Googs.  Truly a fun team to watch.  Good coach too!
    
    Big10 Tom
17.2535STRATA::CAPPELWed Dec 04 1991 10:4218
    
    What Acchris?  No responses or answers to my questions?  They are not
    that SCARY are they or does the truth hurt to much so you convienently
    ignore them.
    
    You really can't be using the moniker of being truly objective, when
    you can't even answer simple questions or direct even the slightest
    criticism at a program that you have exactly no ties to.....
    
    Maybe the problem is that a certain noter isn't around any more to take
    some of the heat off of you and rescue you when you're in trouble. :-)
    
    Cap
    
    
    
    
    
17.2536SHU should be about a 10-point favorite, IMO.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 04 1991 12:0825
    re: Cap
    
    Answering the same questions over_and_over_and_over is something I
    don't have the time or desire to do.  We've already had reports from
    "O"Hendry that he's bored silly by this whole thing.  Why not give it a
    rest, 'kay?
    
    
    re: tonight
    
    I give the Heels two (2) chances tonight:
    
    1. Slim
    2. None
    
    We're going into_a hostile arena and playing without our aircraft
    carrier center.  Seton Hall should win this game, no question.  On the
    other hand, Dean loves these kindof games where he can be a big
    underdog and try to pull the stunner.  He'll have to use every trick in
    his bag for us to stay close tonight though.
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2537was hoping you wouldn't say that Chris :-)STAR::YANKOWSKASPaul YankowskasWed Dec 04 1991 12:1313
    >          <<< Note 17.2536 by RHETT::KNORR "Carolina Blue" >>>
    
    > re: tonight
    > I give the Heels two (2) chances tonight:
     
    > 1. Slim
    > 2. None
    
    That does it.  The official kiss of death has been cast on the Pirates.
    We're toast.  Hasta la vista baby.  Warm up the bus.
    
    
    py
17.2538STRATA::CAPPELWed Dec 04 1991 12:3033
    
    ACChris,
    
    Pull up one note where you've answered those questions and please
    direct me to them.....
    
    I have entered questions that I know you have not answered.  
    
    It's ok if you're scared, I understand....
    
    Re On John Hendry
    
    Not a knock on John but if he feels that way about this note than he
    should feel that way about the whole conference.
    
    This conference is full of these types of debates(the DH, junk note
    debates on religion, politics, Browns, broncos, poor fans in
    Pitt., Oilers, Michael Jordan as a role model, Isiah Thomas and the
    Olympics).  All debates which when read carefully contain valuable 
    information but still have the same useless rhetoric as contained 
    in this note.
    
    I've tried to debate basketball with you Chris, but you refuse to be
    even slightly objective when evaluating your program(while I've shown
    that I can do that with IU and Knight, criticizing them on many
    occastions).  This debate will always rage, as long as you continue to 
    heap praise on Smith and NC when they are successfull, while refusing
    to recognize the times they fail(especially when they are to blame).
    Instead you offer up poor and weak excuses.
    
    Cap
    
    
17.2539The Note that crowned me Objective Analyst.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 04 1991 12:4010
    re: Cap
    
    Read the definitive note 17.991 (which KingWeasel Hunt signed off on,
    BTW) and then come back and tell me I've never criticized Dean or
    Carolina.
    
    Huff, huff, huff.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2540Wrong, try againSTRATA::CAPPELWed Dec 04 1991 12:501
    
17.2541ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Dec 04 1991 13:129
    Ha ha ha ha...  GOT to luv it!  This is the 2nd or 3rd batch of new
    questions posed, and left unanswered by ACCrock, and when pressed he
    comes out and falsely claims that he's already answered them all 
    multiple times, and says that anyway he cain't answer these meaty
    sports-related queries cuz John Hendry won't have it.
    
    How low cain he go.  Stayed tuned and ye shall see.
    
    MrT
17.2542FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Wed Dec 04 1991 13:3223
    Cap, there is a difference.  The only other debates that go on as long
    as this are the ones between the Broncos and Browns fans (which
    generally only get heated for only the week when they play), and the
    Oilers and Browns fans.  Those are the only other debates I find as
    tiresome as this.
    
    I get tired of this debate for the following reasons - 1.  I'm not a
    big college basketball fan.  2.  I really don't care about North
    Carolina basketball.  3.  I really don't care about the ACC.  4.  I
    believe that Dean Smith recruits great talent but underacheives in the
    big games, but it doesn't take away from his overall greatness as a
    coach and molder of men.  The primary reason I get tired of this debate
    is that it just never, never ends and unlike the other debates, goes on
    yearround.  The football debates are of short duration and the notes
    are short.  These notes, while sometimes entertaining are long and
    drawn out and amount to nothing more than a giant LDUC.  If it wasn't
    for the entertainment, they'd have no redeeming value whatsoever and
    I'd skip right over them.  Since they are somewhat entertaining, it
    only makes them marginally worth reading.
    
    I'll go back to sleep now.
    
    John Hendry
17.2543{Next Unseen} -- Is, Was, Always Will Be ...SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeWed Dec 04 1991 13:4511
Ninj,

Little by little, you are building the answer to your own complaints.  With 
each extra ounce of fatigue you feel and express, you're edging ever closer 
to getting a respectful invitation to press the {Nexted Unseen} key.   

There's no problem whatsoever if you decide you'd rather skip the ACC 
proceedings and put your energies elsewhere.   To participate in any debate 
is 100% personal decision.    Yours to make and execute.

Bob Hunt
17.2544RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOMacaulay Culkin makes me puke!Wed Dec 04 1991 13:4622
    re .2536
    
    Well, once again we see ACCRisp spin control at work.  Setting up
    things so that if UNC wins - a distinct and not farfetched -
    possibility - he can come in with another "shocked" type note.
    
    
    Lets see - Seton Hall is a 2 1/2 point favorite right now (a little
    less than the Soup line of at least 10...)  Goin by Jeff Saragin's poll
    in USA Today - UNC is ranked #7 in the countryand Seton Hall #57
    (granted, the Hall has only played ONE game - which hurts them in
    Saragin's make-believe rankins anyway.   Using Soup-logic, however,
    I'll go on record as saying I'll be *shocked* if the Pirates can stay
    with the Tarhells(tm).
    
    The Deansters have 4 games under their belts already - so they should
    understand the plays by now - the Hall only has one game - so they
    should be rusty and a little stiff....
    
    Ah - SoupLogic -I love it.  
    
    JD
17.2545STAR::YANKOWSKASPaul YankowskasWed Dec 04 1991 13:499
    re .2543:
    
    "Next unseen" would be a viable option if the "Dean's a bum"/"No he
    isn't" notes were confined to 17.*.  Problem is, they're not; this
    rathole rages on the Big East note, the Big 10 note, the College
    Basketball note, and so on...
    
    
    py
17.2546STRATA::CAPPELWed Dec 04 1991 13:5339
                  
    John,
    
    There is always a debate like this one going on in other notes within
    this file, in fact I find it very hard to find any meaningful sports
    debates in here at the present time.  In my eyes the whole conference
    is like this, which is what surprised me with you outburst.
    If anyone can point me to one, please do.  The debate on college 
    football and Rugby are the closest I can find to meaninful sports 
    discussions.  Even the Patriots discussions, slide down ratholes(The 
    Doug Flutie debates were much worse than the Dean Smith rathole ever 
    will be).
    
    I would like nothing better than to truly debate the merits of college
    basketball.  Here we have an interesting topic on why Dean Smith hasn't
    been more successful in the NCAA tourney with the mega-talent he has
    had in the last 30 years. I think it would be a very good debate.
    
    However ACChris brings this on himself, by hypocritically attacking
    other programs for mistakes while ignoring the ones that his favorite
    program and idol makes.  Plus it doesn't help when he digs up every
    tiny favorable tidbit about Smith and makes it appear to be earth
    shattering praise for Dean Smith(i.e predictable opinions from a 
    17 year old kid) or he creates lame excuses for obvious coaching
    mistakes and/or failures.
    
    Personally I enjoy the factual information and insights that you bring
    to this notesfile, but really think that entire file has the exact same
    debates occuring all the time(in different forms but it's always the 
    same premise).
    
    Cap
    
    
    
    
    
   	
    
17.2547More ...SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeWed Dec 04 1991 13:5919
17.2548NOGAFFSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Wed Dec 04 1991 14:005
    I agree with Paul as to another reason why this one is more tiring than
    the others.  I've said my peace.  I'll shut up now.  The only reason I
    even answered this morning is that Cap axed me a question.
    
    John
17.2549Next Unseen isn't an option for moderatorsCNTROL::MACNEALruck `n' rollWed Dec 04 1991 14:007
17.2550HPSRAD::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Wed Dec 04 1991 14:033
       John, would you please give Crisp your permission to answer the dang
    questions? At least that'll give him one less excuse to use!
                                        Denny
17.2551STRATA::CAPPELWed Dec 04 1991 14:0714
    
    Your entitled to your opinion Mac, I think the Flutie debates of several 
    years ago were year round events and lasted several seasons.  It involved 
    alot more people and was much more heated than this debate ever was....
    
    The Flutie debates had the same recurring stuff over and over and
    over...
    
    There are debates like this(in lesser degrees at times for a long
    period of time or very intense for a short period of time), every
    single day.
    
    I just believe that if people are bothered by this debate, than they
    should be bothered with everything within this notesfile.
17.2552We've only just begun ...SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeWed Dec 04 1991 14:1227
17.2553If you want boring details, read the newspaper.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 04 1991 14:3925
    Agreed with Ketch - new information is constantly being added to The
    Debate.  I've gotten my licks in, and continue to do so.  The Weasels
    have even delivered an occasional flesh wound.  The Debate goes on, new
    information that relates to college basketball is discussed, and we all
    have fun.  Ain't that what we're supposed to do in here?!
    
    I remember when I first started with DEC.  (6+ years ago.)  After
    discovering SPORTS I was delighted to find an ACC note.  Unfortunately
    each note would read something like:
    
    "In ACC action last night:
    
    UNC 93 - Duke 81
    Wake Forest 79 - Clemson 53
    etc."
    
    i.e. **BORING**!!!  Fortunately I checked back in a few months later
    and found [insert my best "THE BEEARS!" voice] a certain noter from a
    certain midwestern city in love with a certain basketball coach who was
    lambasting DeanSmith.  (Dan was doing the UNC apologetics back then.)
    
    The rest, as they say, is history.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2554FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Wed Dec 04 1991 14:414
    OK, fine - Chris, please go ahead and answer the questions.  If he
    claims he can't find them then Cap, please go ahead and repost them.
    
    Thank you.
17.2555ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Dec 04 1991 15:5536
    >"Next unseen" would be a viable option if the "Dean's a bum"/"No he
    >isn't" notes were confined to 17.*  Problem is, they're not; this
    >rathole rages on the Big East note, the Big 10 note, the College
    >Basketball note, and so on...
    
    Bull.  This fine rathole right now is "raging on" only in 17.*  It 
    moved over to 9.* for some reason briefly, a note that hadn't had a
    new entry in weeks at the time.  Sometimes it moves into 15.*, where
    its perfectly welcome with Big10 folk, but 15.* is basically daid and
    if the rathole were to move there it wouldn't be in 17.* during that
    time.  
    
    As for the made-for-TV Big Least note, I cain't comment.  I don't even
    know what number it is, and cain't even recall the last time I even
    peeked in there.
    
    So you're wrong, Paul.  Next Unseen *is* an option.
    
    Those that don't like this debate don't need to read it.  Myself, there
    are several notes in here right now in subject areas of interest to me
    that I avoid cuz I don't dig the writing that goes on in there.  I aim
    the same in that regard.  Where I differ is I simply stay away, and 
    don't deign to criticize these writers that I'm displeased with their
    work.  
    
    Vive la difference.
    
    The only truly reprehensible part of this rathole is how ACCrock, and
    Air Snide before him, would when confronted with factual challenges
    simply ignore them and persist in pressing false claims.  But that goes
    with the terriotry.  
    
    If Crockmeister and owned up to his rhetorical responsibilities this
    rathole woulda been daid years ago! 
    
    Big10 Ultra Bigot Tom              
17.2556ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Dec 05 1991 11:1114
    Last night's Battle of the Hells had the Star Hells *badly* outmanning
    the Seething Hells.  The Star Hells enjoy one of the most dangerous
    offensive guard tandems in the country, and they held up well in
    Snuffer's trapping scheme.  Nobody could touch Montross in the middle,
    not even able to slightly bother his in-close Js and hooks.  The Baby
    Blews also exhibited magnificient depth with young talents like
    Wenstrom off the bench.
    
    Summary: Yesterday ACCrock was all moany-woany about how the poor
    pitable undermanned Star Hells were gonna get clocked by a stronger
    Seething Hell squad.  They won by nearly a 30 point blowout that SHU
    was barely in from the beginning.  Sandbagging at its most naked!
    
    Big10 Tom
17.2557Random thoughts from UNC > SHURHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Dec 05 1991 11:1636
    Nice work by the Heels last night, thoroughly main-handling the quick
    by wild shooting Seton Hall Pirates.  I may have to reverse course on
    my Calbert Cheaney humiliation thing, cause last night the kid DeHere
    got humiliated cause PJ *wouldn't* sit him down!  Wow was he off. 
    Double *wow* that he still kept shooting so much.  
    
    Luther Wright has a very, very, *very* long way to go.  He almost tried
    to make the apparently not-so-badly-injured Eric Montross look *quick*
    out there, which is almost impossible.  Kid is carrying too many pounds
    for one thing.
    
    Speaking of Montross, it appears his off-season work on more offensive
    moves has paid off.  He showed some nice moves around the basket. 
    True, his slowness afoot is a liability at times, but if he can learn
    to avoid so much foul trouble I cain see him scoring 20+ on certain
    nights.
    
    Miscellaneous:
    
    o I like Derrick Phelps.  I like George Lynch.  Those two (2) can play on
      my team any day.  Any Hubert Davis has a sweet 'J' ...  
    
    o Dean started a no-center lineup last night to counter PJ's quickness.  
      The guys came out ready to play, which was a switch from the Houston 
      game.  
    
    o The wheels really came off the Pirates bus the last 5-10 minutes of
      the game.  Pretty much self-destructed, which surprised me from a
      PJ-coached team.
    
    o Pat Sullivan is starting to remind me of Matt Doherty, and that's not
      a compliment.  Does too many dumb things to go along with his 
      occasional bright spots.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2558Looks like Slim and None rode back into town ...SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeThu Dec 05 1991 11:537
Soup,

That's a pretty good rundown on the game.  I saw most of it as well and the 
Heels looked real good in spots.  Only nexted time, please spare us the 
pre-game "slim and none" crap.   We get enough of that from Snuff himself.

Bob Hunt
17.2559RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOMacaulay Culkin makes me puke!Thu Dec 05 1991 12:5421
    Well, as I predicted - Crisp's pre-game whiney moan was totally wrong. 
    I was surprised by the score - but not the outcome.  Even if Dehere
    shoots 50%, the Pirates get destroyed.  Of course, if the two teams'
    meet nexted year in a month that begins in "M" and ends in "H" I'll
    fully expect the Pirates to win.
    
    Pretty amazing that ol' Crispy is saying how pJ shoulda taken ol' Terry
    out of the game - as he did his Rick Fox imitation - but we all know
    what he said to those of us who said Deanster shoulda taken ol' Rick
    out....
    
    Po' Ol' Eric Montross - he sure looked very hurt out there.  Another
    sandbag by the Hells.
    
    In a way - I hope last night was a wake-up call to the Pirates - they
    have to realize they can't rely on Dehere to do all the scoring - or
    they'll have some more games like that.
    
    Tonight could be another sweep by the ACC.
    
    JD
17.2560The Doctor has the answerLUNER::BROOKSStardate 12.06.91 - BE THERE !Thu Dec 05 1991 13:094
    re 2542
    
    Nija, work must really be getting to ya. You and I need to hang out
    dude, raise a little hell, maybe chase some BC ladies .... :-)
17.2561STRATA::CAPPELThu Dec 05 1991 14:0021
    
    NC did look good and Dehere should have been sat for some of those
    incredibly stupid shots and turnovers.
    
    One thing I noticed though that would worry me as a NC fan, is that
    while Montross looked good offensively(although he only scored over
    Walker and SH's other PF), he looked terrible on the defensive end(no
    foot movement whatsoever, didn't box out on the boards either).  This
    might have been due to his injury but he looked very average
    defensively.  He was also not a physical as I thought he would be,
    Luther pushed him around the few times they went head to head.
    
    One thing I did like about him though, is that he doesn't put the ball
    on the floor like so many big men when he receives a pass in the low 
    post.  Although, he will have to alter this pattern when he goes up 
    against a shot-blocking center.
    
    If he plays this poorly defensively, Laettner will have a very big 
    night against him.
    
    Cap
17.2562STRATA::CAPPELThu Dec 05 1991 14:054
    Question:  Why can't UNC play that well in an Important NCAA Tourney
    	       game? :-)
    
    
17.2563poor coaching?ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Dec 05 1991 14:211
    
17.2564I hope tonight's games are better than last night'sCST17::FARLEYMcDroodburgers - toss em up or down!Thu Dec 05 1991 14:2315
    They DIDN't play THAT well!  Give most of the credit to the bricks
    the Pirates were laying down, especially Dehere (3-24 or something?)
    
    IMO, UNC won the game but the Pirates beat themselves.  Anybody
    remember how many turnovers they had?
    
    Neither team looked like a Top-20 team and certainly didn't look like
    they deserve(d) the #5 #6 spots.
    
    Speaking for myself, *I'm* certainly glad I'm not on either the Friar's
    or the Pirates BBall team right now.  I have a sense of forboding pain
    and tongue wagging at today's practices!
    
    Kev
    
17.2565CAMONE::WAYThe King of the Droods(tm)Thu Dec 05 1991 16:1516
Well, to answer Cap's question:


	No pressure on the Snuffmeister...


I watched a little of the game last night, but I must confess I had a 
date with the SR-71 on Wings.  (That plane gives me a woody).

Anyway, Snuffer looked positively relaxed.  His eyes weren't bulging outta
his haid, he hands weren't fidgeting.....

What till March and see the difference!


'Saw
17.2566RAVEN1::B_ADAMSTime for F.A.R.T. again!Thu Dec 05 1991 20:035
    
    	What's the series at? 3-2 ACC?
    
    B.A.
    
17.25674-2, ACCBSS::JCOTANCHThu Dec 05 1991 21:012
    
    
17.2568RAVEN1::B_ADAMSTime for F.A.R.T. again!Thu Dec 05 1991 23:276
    re-1,
    
    	cool...
    
    B.A.
    
17.2569Well done, Hoos ...SHALOT::HUNTMusicians For Free-Range ChickensFri Dec 06 1991 00:2019
 Make that 5-2 and clinched for the ACC ...
 
 Virginia dusted off Georgetown in overtime, 76-66, in the opener in
 Greensboro.   Corey Alexander, frosh point guard, had a great game and
 Bryant Stith was his usual studly self.
 
 This was my first real look this season at Team Wahoo and needless to say
 I'm pleased with the potential.  Junior Burroughs looks like he's got the
 tools to be a nuke widebody in time.
 
 For those who care about these things, if Duke beats St. John's, the
 ACC-Big East Challenge will end in a 16-16 tie over the three years.  The
 leagues tied 4-4 in the first year, and the Big East won 6 of 8 lasted
 season.
 
 Curiously enough, the Wahoos won each year.   Did any other team in either
 league also go 3-0 ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2570CAMONE::WAYSay no to Baby Butt CrackFri Dec 06 1991 10:0516
Nice to hear the 'hoos won.

I have to confess that I didn't watch all of the game.  I caught a part 
of it, then watched part of a tape of some stuff from last weekend,
then watched the first hour of the Pearl Harbor special.

I ended up taping the last hour of the Harbor special, and going to bed.
(Damn tired all the time these days -- must be the workouts...)


Anyway, I didn't get to see the news at 11 to find out who won.....


Go 'hoos!!!!

'Saw
17.2571See what happens when I don't use my calculator ...SHALOT::HUNTMusicians For Free-Range ChickensFri Dec 06 1991 12:1710
17.2572Not necessarily significant, but a curiousity ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Dec 06 1991 12:307
    Bob axed a good question - were there any other teams in either the BE
    or ACC to go 3-0 besides Virginia?  I'd be curious about the overall
    records.  Off-hand I know both Carolina and Duke were 2-1.  Anybody
    help with the numbers?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2573Brief IntermissionWMOIS::REEVE_CFri Dec 06 1991 12:4027
    Can any of you folks down in Hotlanta tell me anything about Martice
    Moore (sp?), the hot stud that Tech signed recently? Only thing we hear
    up here in the frozen north is that he is a stud. Details?
    
    According to the Big East rep interviewed between games last night, the
    BE ADs voted 9-1 to discontinue the Challenge. The excuses they
    mentioned sounded VERY weak. Vitale got in a few jabs about how much
    the fans, players, media, etc. loved it, but to no avail. Too bad that
    coaches, ADs are oblivious to those unimportant components of college
    hoops.
    
    Tech's freshmen look very good, they could make a serious run at second
    place in the ACC. Travis Best vs. Corey Alexander should make for
    several years of great entertainment.
    
    FSU looked very overrated. They could be in for a tough inauguration if
    they don't improve fast.
    
    Great start to the season for the ACC. Looks like there will be some
    fantastic games this year, and an exciting race if Duke comes down to
    Earth just a little.
    
    I don't suppose anyone would care to make a New Year's resolution about
    interring the Dean/Bobby harangues until after the season would they?
    Nah, didn't think so. Oh, well.
    
    Chris
17.2574Anybody see Georgetown's next 6 games? What a joke ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Dec 06 1991 12:5410
    Moore is preping this year in Virginia.  (Oak Hill)  I've heard he's a
    definite wing player and not really a banger.  Supposedly has good
    range and runs the court very well.
    
    Definitely stud material - probably another McDonald's AA headed for
    Tech.  Should make a good combo with Forrest - he'll be able to play
    PF, where he's more comfortable.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2575Syracuse is also 3-0!!!!AKOCOA::KBURGESSFri Dec 06 1991 13:078
    
    Syracuse  3-0, 
    
    Beating:  Duke
              N.C. State
              Fla. St.
    
    - Ken -
17.2576RAVEN1::B_ADAMSTime for F.A.R.T. again!Fri Dec 06 1991 18:326
    re-,1
    
    When did this happen?
    
    B.A.
    
17.2577The Grate Debate Finally EndsANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Dec 06 1991 18:3323
    Hey ACChris, you out there?  I cain understand if you disappear after
    taking the fall on the Cheany-benching thing, but I gotta a question to
    axe:
    
    Bob's less consistent with the regular season winning % and the appearances
    in the Sweet16/Elite8/Final Four; Snuffer's more consistent at these most
    excellent things but is much less consistent at closing on the Title.
    
    Given the 20 and 30 years samples, respectively, isn't it fair to conclude
    that it's proven that Bob has less talent but does a superior job with it?
    Isn't it proven that Snuffy chokes in big games?  And isn't this why
    you've left a trail littered with unanswered questions and unsubstantiated
    claims?
    
    I think so.  Ergo, I think it is proven that...
    
    			Bob > Dean
    
    So, it's settled.  After all these years.  Now just admit this truth and
    we cain all move on with our lives and this file's literary critics will
    be happy to boot.
    
    MrT
17.2578Why, sure.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Dec 06 1991 18:4415
    re: .-1
    
    Okay Mort.  I admit it. 
    
    Bob > Dean.
    
    
    
    
    ****** NOT ***** !111111111111111111111111111111111111
    
    Heh heh!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2579AXIS::ROBICHAUDFreud,Dr.Ruth,ByrdieFri Dec 06 1991 18:474
    	I think MorT meant that Bob is fatter than Dean.  I have to
    agree with that one.
    
    				/Don
17.2580RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOSanta Claus is a Drood!Fri Dec 06 1991 19:2710
    Hey, I'll paraphrase the Crisper:
    
    There isn't one other coach in the country that would ever humiliate
    their team on national TV during a Final Four contest by not knowing
    how much time was left on the clock.  None.  Nada.
    
    
    HTH
    
    JD
17.2581SU 3-0 vs the ACC.WLDWST::RCARRUTHERSNight Flier: ~~v~~Sat Dec 07 1991 00:4014
RE: 17.2576

 3 - 0 in the Big East / ACC Challenge:

>    Syracuse  3-0, 

 Someone correct me if I am wrong but I think:
    
>    Beating:  Duke           last year - 1990
>              N.C. State     2 years ago - 1989
>              Fla. St.       this year - 1991
                                                
                                                Night Flier   ~~v~~

17.2582RAVEN1::B_ADAMSTime for F.A.R.T. again!Sat Dec 07 1991 03:5111
17.2583Miscellaneous ACC goings_ons ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 09 1991 11:0127
    While the Indiana Hoosiers have certainly been one of the biggest
    disapointments in the early season the play of the North Carolina 
    State Wolfpack has been one of the most pleasant surprises.  
    I'd predict absolutely disasterous results for the Pack this year, yet
    they're off to an amazing 4-1 start, including W's over Pitt and
    DePaul.  Their only loss was to the always-tough Alabama Crimson Tide. 
    (A team that got *beat* by UNC-Charlotte!)  Kudos to coach Robinson
    who's clearly maximizing State's questionable talent.
    
    Almost as impressive has been the play of the Maryland Terrapins. 
    They're off to a 5-0 start, including wins over the underachieving
    Providence Friars and West Virginia.  Gary Williams group plays
    Louisville this week, which is a game they'll probably be favored to
    win.
    
    On a darker side, Florida State got into one of the worst brawls in ACC
    history the other night, with cross-town rival Florida A&M having to
    forfeit the game while it was still in the first half.  A&M may have
    had more players ejected, but Doug Edwards and Sam Cassell were also
    tossed.  (Cassell allegedly took a sharpened pencil from the scorers
    table in the fray.)  The so-far underachieving Seminoles will now enjoy 
    going into Chapel Hill without their best player (Edwards) and starting
    PG (Cassell).  (Ejection for fighting automatically carries a 1-game
    suspension.)  
    
    
    = ACC Chris
17.2584EXTREMELY UGLYDYPSS1::ROPERBRAVO PITINO!Mon Dec 09 1991 11:319
    The FSU game was perhaps the ugliest scene since Bill Musslemans
    Minnesota debacle in the '70's.  On replay I saw an A&M player kick one
    of FSU's players in the back while he was on the floor.  I put most of
    the blame on A&M.  Edwards of FSU was duking it out and A&M had a guy
    come up from behind and sucker punch him.  Sad day for college
    basketball.  For a fight such as this I would suspend the players for
    much more than one game.
    
    WILDCAT
17.2585Cheap shot from the cheap seats...GUSHER::WAUGAMANMon Dec 09 1991 11:4016
    
>    On a darker side, Florida State got into one of the worst brawls in ACC
>    history the other night, with cross-town rival Florida A&M having to
>    forfeit the game while it was still in the first half.  A&M may have
>    had more players ejected, but Doug Edwards and Sam Cassell were also
>    tossed.  (Cassell allegedly took a sharpened pencil from the scorers
>    table in the fray.)  The so-far underachieving Seminoles will now enjoy 
>    going into Chapel Hill without their best player (Edwards) and starting
>    PG (Cassell).  (Ejection for fighting automatically carries a 1-game
>    suspension.)  
 
    Congrats, ACC!  I knew you guys were right about being better off
    with FSU than Penn State...
    
    glenn
    
17.2586reel classyANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Dec 09 1991 13:011
    
17.2587moreANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Dec 09 1991 13:093
    Did FSU accost any referees or attack any police persons?
    
    Big10 tom
17.2588Talented Hoosiers gag again ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 09 1991 13:127
    Shadup MorT and head over to the B10 note to start the Bob apologetics. 
    Given how much you Hucksters hate the Kaintucks, you must be feeling
    *awful* bad this morning!  (Kinda brings a smile to my crotchety Monday
    -morning face just thinking about it!!  Haw!!!)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2589LUNER::BROOKSStardate 12.06.91 - BE THERE !Mon Dec 09 1991 14:199
    re. Roper
    
    I strongly suggest you not assign blame until or unless you've seen the
    entire fight, and at least the final few minutes leading up to it. 
    
    I've seen lynch mobs declare blame in such events before, and get it
    entirely wrong.
    
    Doc
17.2590What's you gona do when WEASELMANIA comes down on you?CNTROL::CHILDSHit &amp; Run Noter at LargeMon Dec 09 1991 14:569
 Doesn't it figure that Dean, I mean Chris, I mean Slasher can only
 think of the players that FSU will be missing instead of the shamefullenss
 of the event?

 while I'll bet inside they're secretly smiling about FSU being short-handed
 and breathing a heavy sigh of relief too...

 ;^)
17.2591Anyone who recalls this incident know for sure?JARETH::YANKOWSKASPlease note new node nameMon Dec 09 1991 15:0810
    re the FSU-A&M incident:
    
    A couple years ago, I recall a really nasty college hoops brawl in a
    game between two small schools from the South...one that got so crazy
    that even the bands from both schools went at it.
    
    Wasn't Florida A&M one of the schools involved in that fracas?
    
    
    py
17.2592FSU-A&M a horrid thing. What more cain be said?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 09 1991 15:3125
    re: .-1  (py)
    
    Sure, I recall that fight.  That was the one MrT claimed was a black
    eye on the ACC, even though neither team was from the ACC!  Haw haw!! 
    BobHunt still gets a chuckle outa that one!  
    
    BTW, FSU wasn't one of the two (2) teams that were fighting.  I don't
    recall the teams, but both were from North Carolina.
    
    
    re: MChilds
    
    I watched FSU last week against SorryExcuse (tm).  Believe me, I wasn't
    trembling about playing the 'Noles even with Edwards and Cassell.  They
    looked, quite simply, horrendous.  Most disheartening was their lack of
    guts on the boards.  No desire.  No determination.  No extra effort. 
    I'll guarantee a very, very long inagural ACC season if that keeps up.
    
    Sadly, I have tickets to the FSU @ DeanDome game, but won't be able to
    go.  I was thinking about holding a contest for 'em, but think I'll
    just give 'em to my sister instead.  (Cain't think of anybody deserving
    enough to go ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2593RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOSanta Claus is a Drood!Mon Dec 09 1991 15:337
    Pretty bad fight.  Of course, Accaught simply says it was
    'unfortunate'.
    
    Good thing it wasn't Georgetown - or it would have been racially
    motivated - right Crispy...
    
    JD
17.2594JARETH::YANKOWSKASPlease note new node nameMon Dec 09 1991 15:395
    re .2592, thanks Chris.  Lot of A&Ms, A&Ts, and A&Ps out there, easy to
    get 'em mixed up... :-)
    
    
    py
17.2595Skwawk, whack him ona side o' his haid!!!!CST17::FARLEYMcDroodburgers - toss em up or down!Mon Dec 09 1991 15:3910
    Aw Droodpoop!
    
    I was hoping for another Chrispy-contest, et. al......
    
    Wanna reconsider "ACCRook"??????
    
    ;^)
    
    Kev_eligible_juror_in_waiting
    
17.2596Too sad to be funnySHALOT::MEDVIDsing your lifeMon Dec 09 1991 16:146
    One of the schools in the fight two years ago was NC A&T.  The other
    may have been Winston-Salem State, but I really can't recall.
    
    In that one, the players, bands, and crowd were in the ring.
    
    	--dan'l
17.2597RAVEN1::B_ADAMSTime for F.A.R.T. again!Mon Dec 09 1991 16:4611
    
    Chris,
    
    	You're so right about the pack...but the ACC schedule before them
    will get the best of them! Too tough!! Next should be a better year!
    
    	On the FSU/F-AM fight, WHO STARTED IT!!!! :*)  I've seen the clip
    from the fight...good fighters out there!
    
    B.A.
    
17.2598Not funny? It's *hilarious*!!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 09 1991 17:0118
    > Too sad to be funny
    
    Gotta disagree with ya, dan'l.  Each and every time I think about that
    fight I usually start busting out in laughter, remembering how MrT gave
    the poor ole ACC (which hasn't had a bench-clearing brawl in a
    conference game since the 60's) a black eye over this ugly affair.  Haw
    haw haw!!!111
    
    BTW, regardless of who started it FSU better realize that this kindof
    thing is clearly not tolerated by the ACC.  Alot of these kinds
    of things are the result of poor officiating.  (i.e. officials let
    physical play get out of hand)  Even still there's no excuse for this
    kindof thing, and Florida State must feel pretty stupid heading into
    their first ACC game against pristine UNC without two (2) essential
    ingredients of their team.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2599My perception...SHALOT::MEDVIDsing your lifeMon Dec 09 1991 17:1710
    It appeared the Florida A&M player started it by a little rough-housing
    after a made basket.  The camera kind of pans up court, but you can see
    the beginnings of a scuffle just to the left of the screen.  By the
    time the camera worked back to the incident, the FSU player was back
    peddling and the A&M dude was punching away, with some agility I might
    add.
    
    Then all hell broke loose.
    
    	--dan'l
17.2600FDCV06::KINGBe nice to me, I'm a Pheresis Donor!!Mon Dec 09 1991 17:533
    ACC WWF... Can't seem to tell them apart......
    
    REK
17.2601Still Ugly, No Matter the FaultDYPSS1::ROPERBRAVO PITINO!Mon Dec 09 1991 18:0126
    re .2589
    
    >>    I strongly suggest you not assign blame until or unless you've seen
    >>    the entire fight, and at least the final few minutes leading up to
    >>    it.  
    >>
    >>    I've seen lynch mobs declare blame in such events before, and get
    >>    it entirely wrong.
    >>
    >>    Doc
    
    Doc, you may want to catch a replay of the fight.  It is intuitively
    obvious from the nation-wide clip that:
    
    	A.  A&M emptied its bench *NOT* FSU
    
    	B.  FSU's guy be it Edwards or whomever was sucker-punched from
            behind.
    
    	C.  One of A&M's players ran up and kicked the FSU player in the
            back while he was lying hurt on the ground.
    
    Sorry, don't think we have a lynch mob here.  Just reporting what I
    saw.
    
    WILDCAT
17.2602Ugly,ugly,ugly,ugly,ugly,ugly,(etc.)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 09 1991 18:109
    re: .-1
    
    In all fairness though, Mildcat, I did here FSU's Sam Cassell grabbed a
    *sharpened pencil* to use in the fight.  This kindof thing, IMO,
    deserves far more than a 1-game suspension.  (Kicking a player does
    too, BTW.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2603DYPSS1::ROPERBRAVO PITINO!Mon Dec 09 1991 18:1512
    I understand.  I agree.  That didn't come across on the replay.  I just
    didn't like seeing a person kicked, hit from behind, suffice to say, I
    didn't like any of it.  It brought back memories of the horrid
    Minnesota incident.  I've been trying to remember all day who they were
    playing.  Was it Ohio State?  In that game, a player was kicked in the
    head while on the ground.
    
    I believe it's an NCAA rule that suspends the player for one game.  I
    wonder if the respective conferences will tack on an extra suspension. 
    I believe it's warranted in this case.
    
    WILDCAT
17.2604FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Mon Dec 09 1991 18:204
    Luke Witte, Ohio State, was the most badly injured player in that
    Minnesota brawl.
    
    John
17.2605GUSHER::WAUGAMANMon Dec 09 1991 18:4212
    
    > It brought back memories of the horrid
    > Minnesota incident.  I've been trying to remember all day who they were
    > playing.  Was it Ohio State?  In that game, a player was kicked in the
    > head while on the ground.
      
    Wasn't Dave Winfield one of the Minnesota guys that got the old
    heave-ho off the squad after that game? 
          
    glenn
    
                          
17.2606Where's Moderator Mac when ya need him?!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 09 1991 18:556
    Hey listen if you guys are gonna talk about ugly in-conference game
    fights, couldn't ya take it over to the B10 note?  After all, it's been
    about a quarter century since the ACC last had one_a these things ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2607RAVEN1::B_ADAMSTime for F.A.R.T. again!Mon Dec 09 1991 20:517
17.2608CNTROL::MACNEALruck `n' rollTue Dec 10 1991 10:282
    Is this recount of a fight that was held 2 years ago an example of the
    fresh materials that is turned up every day in the Dean debates?
17.2609rearended CNTROL::CHILDSHit &amp; Run Noter at LargeTue Dec 10 1991 11:017
>   Is this recount of a fight that was held 2 years ago an example of the
>   fresh materials that is turned up every day in the Dean debates?

 Nope it's not Mac, but the newly found evidence that Dean is scared to play
 in state to hurt recruiting is a juicy new tidbid ain't it?

 mike
17.2610ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Dec 10 1991 16:5429
    Mac, you were given pacific examples of the fresh material.  Another
    way to locate this fresh material is to see which direction ACCrock
    is running FROM.  Btw, it's all 100% sports-related.
    
    re: ACCrock-o'-Holic
    
    What MrT said at the time was that the state gubmint that gave the Smif'-
    style wrist slap for a riot involving several hundred persons was the
    very SAME state gubmint that tolerated Jimmy Vulvano's egregious crimes
    not to mention Chapel Hell's ongoing practice of racial discrimination.
    
    That was the connection and it holds.  Beyond that, who knows?, maybe
    the brothers attending these two all-African schools were venting pent-up
    anger at not having been admitted to UNC-CH because they were black.
    
    As for the Minnesota incident, again, the key thing to look at is the
    response of the gubmints and conferences involved.  Players were thrown
    off the team for good.  The coach and all his assistants were fired.
    More recently, the State of Minnesota jailed a official handing out
    money to athletes.  Not a work farm, the big house.  Not 30 days, one
    and a half years.  Same for Michigan's asst. baseball coach.  Felony
    counts.
    
    Compare these fine responses to Dean Smif's tolerance of woman-beating,
    referee accosting, and fighting with police persons.
    
    The ACC has a long way to go before it will, er, come up to snuff.
    
    Big10 UltraBigot Tom
17.2611Not related in any way, shape, or form.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Dec 10 1991 17:1810
    re: .-1
    
    Nice try MorT.  Only problem is the board that handled Valvano and the
    riot is COMPLETELY AND 100% mutually exclusive from the Atlantic Coast
    Conference.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2612take THIS parry you snivilling little...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Dec 10 1991 17:218
    Is there a point here?  From the beginning I pointed my accusatory
    finger at the State of North Carolina and the deleterious and 
    cheapening effect this sleazebag gaggle of permissive politicians
    had on its university athletic programs.  That two of the sleaziest
    are the two biggest which in turn are Almost Close members is only
    icing on my Cake a Correctitude.
    
    Big10 UltraBigot Tom
17.2613ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Dec 10 1991 17:2728
    >Not related in any way, shape, or form.
    
    This statement is not related to Reality in any way, shape, or form.
    
    I have given a multitude a examples where state gubmints have intervened
    in a positive manner when ahtletic departments at state schools wheel
    out a control (i.e., Michigan, Minnesota, Indiana in the 50s, et al).
    
    So it's beyond dispute that the state gubmint that finances and oversees
    a college and the athletic department within is "related in many ways,
    shapes, and forms."
    
    Now that that's settled, let us compare and contrast positive gubmint
    intervention to pro-sleazoidal membrane laissez-faire gubmints that 
    avert their eyes at the Norm Stewarts, Dean Smiths, Jerry Tarkanians,
    JugEars, and Pat Dyes of the world.
    
    Btw, it goes without saying that cheating pays, and that cheating is
    a helluva lot easier in a private school.  As a boy who studied under
    money-grubbing Jesuits, I especially in this regard admire the paradigm
    set forth by Payola-Moneycount U.
    
    The successful example I *don't* like is Gougetown, where the whole
    money-grubbing exercise is spun up off of reverse racial discrimination.
    But what better place to showcase successful cash flow based on reverse
    racial discrimination than Washington, D.C., the home of our gubmint?
    
    MrT
17.2614A TRUE story....CAMONE::WAYSay no to Baby Butt CrackTue Dec 10 1991 17:3956
So, I'm working out in the gym last night, which is a small gym in
Glastonbury.  You get to know the regulars, and new folks who come
in tend to stick out like a sore thumb.

So, I'm working on transforming my prop-butted body into something a little
harder, a little stronger, and a little better looking, all while trying
NOT to drool at the most bodacious and crowded aerobics class, when the
door opens up.

In walks this guy with the build of the Pillsbury Doughboy.  He kind of 
waddled up to the desk and put his membership card down.  Paul, one of the
free weight regulars, looks over at me, says "Gotta be his first night"
and I say "I'm bettin' Nautilus".  We both wondered if the coke-bottle
eyeglasses come off for the workout or not.

So, I pretty much forget about the dude, and I'm working my sets, pumping,
resting, you know the routine.  After one particularly hard set I
saunter over to the water fountain, kind of keeping an eye on the stuff
that was bouncin, uh, er, happening in the aerobics class, when the
Pillsbury Doughboy cuts me off just at the fountain.

Well, that's kind of a faux pas at our gym, but it was his first night,
so I let it go.  Well this guy stands there and sucks water for about
a fortnight or so, and then he turns around.

Well, what to my wondering eyes should appear, but a UNC t-shirt, gray
with baby blue lettering.  I look at him, and overcoming my surprise, 
I say "Big UNC, fan, eh?"

He gets this misty eyed look and says "Sure am... Greatest college
basketball team on earth".

"Oh," I reply.  "Gee, you must be quite a fan of Snuff, er, uh, I mean
Dean Smith"

"Oh yes, Dean's the greatest coach in the game today.  Why, his system
has one of the highest winning percentages ever"

"Oh," I reply.  "Say, how's Dean done in the NCAA tournament?  Has 
he won that?"

Pillsbury got this vague and confused look on his face, and stammered
a couple of times.  I fully expected to hear the term "excellent loss"
come out of his mouth, but he stammered some more, and said, "Oh, I see
the Nautilus machines are free now...  Do you work on Nautilus?"

"No, I work on free weights...  Well, maybe we'll get a chance to talk
again sometime..."

"Uh, yeah", he replied....


Boy, now I have something to look forward to between sets.......


'Saw
17.2615QUASER::HUNTERBad_Boy of ::SPORTSTue Dec 10 1991 17:584
     `Saw...  You were pretty tough on the guy....  Sure it wasn't 
    ACCKnorr...
    
    BG
17.2616CAMONE::WAYSay no to Baby Butt CrackTue Dec 10 1991 18:0727
>     `Saw...  You were pretty tough on the guy....  Sure it wasn't 
>    ACCKnorr...
    

Big Game,

I've met ACC Chris, so I KNEW it wasn't him.

But, even if I'd never have met him, I'd have expected that if it WERE
ACC Chris, I'd have gotten more out of the guy.  I would have expected him
to suddenly jump up on the desk and start preaching about how Dean
turns out NBA-ers, or how Dean systems is consistent over the long run
and that in any one game it may not be perfection...


If the guy is in there tomorrow night, I'm gonna wait till he's working
on one of the Nautilus machines in a direct line between the free weights
and the water fountain.  I'll wait till he's working hard, pumping
up, and as I walk by, I'll quietly say:


	"How much time?  How much time?"


heh heh heh.

'Saw
17.2617New Englad in the dead of winter .... Yuk.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Dec 10 1991 18:0913
    Nope, wasn't me BG.  For one thing, I hate weights.  For another thing,
    I live in the South, where we don't bear so much hostility toward new
    faces, nor are we confined to weight rooms in the dead of winter. 
    (Today, for example, it's 70 degrees with brilliant sunshine.  I'll
    be hitting the tennis courts tonight after work ...)
    
    Thirdly, Saw knows I ain't got no Pillsbury DoughBoy build.  Matter of
    fact he even got to witness me on the hoops court once, where I sliced
    and diced my way to boo-koo points and W's, all the while playing my
    Dean-like style of unselfishness!  Heh heh!!!111
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2618CAMONE::WAYSay no to Baby Butt CrackTue Dec 10 1991 18:1334
>    Nope, wasn't me BG.  For one thing, I hate weights.  For another thing,
>    I live in the South, where we don't bear so much hostility toward new
>    faces, nor are we confined to weight rooms in the dead of winter. 
>    (Today, for example, it's 70 degrees with brilliant sunshine.  I'll
>    be hitting the tennis courts tonight after work ...)

Well, we're not hostile to new faces (unless they're wearing UNC shirts 8^))
but I will say that there is a kind of "Prove to me what your worth, and
once your accepted we'll die for you" kind of attitude up here.

I like weights.  The funny part is that I never used to, but I do like
them now.

It's warm up here this year too.  I'm sure we set records yesterday, 
and today was pretty close to the same...

    
>    Thirdly, Saw knows I ain't got no Pillsbury DoughBoy build.  Matter of
>    fact he even got to witness me on the hoops court once, where I sliced
>    and diced my way to boo-koo points and W's, all the while playing my
>    Dean-like style of unselfishness!  Heh heh!!!111
    
    
Yes, I will admit that Chris is NOT built like the doughboy, and he
is quite accomplished on the court.  (He'll also remember that I was
extremely sportsmanlike, much to the dismay of my teammates, when
I admitted that I fouled him.  I too am a gentlemanly player, if not
quite so talented in a basketball sense).

He also was unselfish, but the one thing that separates Chris from Dean
is that Chris always knew how much time was left 8^)


'Saw
17.2619What a physique!SHALOT::MEDVIDsing your lifeTue Dec 10 1991 18:1812
>    Matter of
>    fact he even got to witness me on the hoops court once, where I sliced
>    and diced my way to boo-koo points and W's, all the while playing my
>    Dean-like style of unselfishness!  
    
    And Bob Hunt and I got to witness you on the stage of the Paper Doll
    Lounge.  You weren't pumpin' iron, you was poundin' Pepper.  You were
    mighty unselfish then too.  
    
    ;-}
    
    	--dan'l
17.2620ACC's been in the sun too long munchin Droodshrooms!CST17::FARLEYSki Drood(tm) Valley-Great Moguls!Tue Dec 10 1991 18:191
    
17.2621CAMONE::WAYSay no to Baby Butt CrackTue Dec 10 1991 18:2410
>    
>    And Bob Hunt and I got to witness you on the stage of the Paper Doll
>    Lounge.  You weren't pumpin' iron, you was poundin' Pepper.  You were
>    mighty unselfish then too.  


dan'l....


You slay me... you really slay me....
17.2622CNTROL::MACNEALruck `n' rollTue Dec 10 1991 18:262
    Saw, in light of your friend at the gym, perhaps you should change your
    P-name to "Say no to Baby Blue Crap" ;^)
17.2623Nexted time I'm in Charlotte I know who *not* to call! :^|RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Dec 10 1991 18:2815
    Low blow thare dan'l.  Fortunately they don't allow cameras into the
    Paper Doll ...
    
    
    re: 1Way
    
    Tis true, 'Saw was a 'gentle giant' on the blacktop, which is good
    cause he could do some reel damage out there to types like myself!
    
    BTW, I hope this warm trend continues, cause I'll be spending the
    next two (2) weeks up thataway ...  [Probably turn bitter cold just
    for me.  :^(]
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2624CAMONE::WAYSay no to Baby Butt CrackTue Dec 10 1991 18:3326
>    Tis true, 'Saw was a 'gentle giant' on the blacktop, which is good
>    cause he could do some reel damage out there to types like myself!

Ask CAM::MAZUR who occasionally notes in SPORTS, and who plays hoops
quite often with me here at work, what it's like to get hit by the
'Saw.

I've learned to use the weight and some of the new-found strength to
my advantage.

    
>    BTW, I hope this warm trend continues, cause I'll be spending the
>    next two (2) weeks up thataway ...  [Probably turn bitter cold just
>    for me.  :^(]

I really couldn't give you an answer on that score, Chris.  It's New
England, and the weather is really proving that fact of late.
A few weeks back it was REALLY warm, then it got REALLY cold and windy,
now it's warmed up again...

I'm surprised more folks aren't sick because of the major changes in
the weather.....



'Saw
17.2625QUASER::HUNTERBad_Boy of ::SPORTSTue Dec 10 1991 19:025
    
     Wasn't sure but the way the guy was making Snuffy out to be a Gawd
    one could only suspect !!
    
    BG
17.2626CAMONE::WAYI believe I'll dust my broomWed Dec 11 1991 10:1712
>     Wasn't sure but the way the guy was making Snuffy out to be a Gawd
>    one could only suspect !!

Well, I'll have to do some more research.  You see, I didn't see that
full fledged Hare Smithna fire in his eyes.  Perhaps being up North
and exposed to some other basketball programs has made a big crack
in his Baby Blew Faith.....

He certainly looks like he eats a lot of Brie... well, eats a lot anyway...


'Saw
17.2627Slasher SlumpsANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Dec 11 1991 12:317
    It's sad what's become a the once proud Slasher.  This guy used to
    be a main's main.  Now... he's either busy rattling a cup in Logan
    or proselytizing for his False Idol.  We Antis have hired a private
    dick to check whether he has a background with Scientology or maybe
    Reverend Moon.
    
    MrT(erribly sad) 
17.2628AXIS::ROBICHAUDGE Bowl?Wed Dec 11 1991 14:114
    	Hey MorT, glad to see FatBob and the Lossiers finally found
    somebody they could beat.
    
    				/Don
17.2629AXIS::CHAPPELCurly Q. LinkWed Dec 11 1991 14:3018
17.2630Hey Chap, can I have my dictionary back now?AXIS::ROBICHAUDGE Bowl?Wed Dec 11 1991 14:461
    
17.2631AXIS::CHAPPELCurly Q. LinkWed Dec 11 1991 14:586
17.2632NOT a pretty sight!HPSRAD::RIEURead his Lips...Know new taxesWed Dec 11 1991 14:593
       /Don's even got onea them ponytails growin' outta the top a his
    haid!
                                     Denny
17.2633CAMONE::WAYI believe I'll dust my broomWed Dec 11 1991 15:178
>       /Don's even got onea them ponytails growin' outta the top a his
>    haid!


Say it ain't so!


God, it's so terrible when we lose a good one....
17.2634AXIS::ROBICHAUDGE Bowl?Wed Dec 11 1991 15:367
17.2635CNTROL::MACNEALruck `n' rollWed Dec 11 1991 15:422
    You guys ought to log into the BOSTON_CELTICS conference.  Someone has
    started up a Dean Smith discussion in the Rathole topic.
17.2636I'm a loyal mainANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Dec 11 1991 15:504
    Sounds yummy, Mac.  But, alas, you'll be happy to know that I aim
    committed solely to CAM2::SPORTS.
    
    MrT
17.2637HPSRAD::RIEURead his Lips...Know new taxesWed Dec 11 1991 16:024
       IF anyone wonders over to that topic, Note .7 mentions a camp where
    bothe Snuffer and Knight appeared. Not too many good things said about
    the Deanster.
                                       Denny
17.2638STRATA::CAPPELWed Dec 11 1991 16:187
    Yeah Denny, it seems like the players just loved Knight and hated Smith
    (who acted like a pompous, stuck-up jerk).
    
    Reminds of the Michael Jordan quote on the coach that he'd learned the
    most from(Knight).
    
    Chris, you'd better get over there and save his name.....
17.2640RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOIs Isiah the GreenRiverKiller?Wed Dec 11 1991 17:024
    Decorum permits me from sullying my good name by venturing into that
    cesspool-pit called the Celtics notesfile.
    
    JorDan.
17.2641CAMONE::WAYI believe I'll dust my broomWed Dec 11 1991 17:088
   <<< Note 17.2640 by RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JO "Is Isiah the GreenRiverKiller?" >>>
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

JD comes through with the BLISTERING p-name!


'Saw

17.2642/Don did what logic dictated. (I don't expect it to happen again)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 11 1991 17:1112
Ironic that the weasels are condemning /Don for joining a "cult", when
*they're* the ones who impose tremendous peer pressure on the troops
as well as brainwashing techniques to keep 'em in line.  The parallels
behind the illogic of Moonies selling all they own for some money-
grubbing false prophet and the Weasels non-stop bashing of one of the
greatest coaches in the history of sport is indeed numbing.

Kudos, /Don, for breaking free from that ugly mind-controlling mob!


- ACC Chris
    
17.2643CAMONE::WAYI believe I'll dust my broomWed Dec 11 1991 17:1324
>Ironic that the weasels are condemning /Don for joining a "cult", when
>*they're* the ones who impose tremendous peer pressure on the troops
>as well as brainwashing techniques to keep 'em in line.  The parallels
>behind the illogic of Moonies selling all they own for some money-
>grubbing false prophet and the Weasels non-stop bashing of one of the
>greatest coaches in the history of sport is indeed numbing.

HAHAHAHAHA...

I take one look at the Pillsbury Doughboy in his little (uh, er, LARGE)
Carolina Blew t-shirt, and I can't help but see a man who has not
seen the light...


BTW, they had a replay of Dean-Os "gift" title last night on the HBO
thang about SPORTS on TV.  Dean had that look on his face that some
infielders get when they go high for a rising liner that they're not
sure they can get, and it suddenly appears in their glove.

You know, that "Look what I *FOUND*" look.....


'Saw    

17.2644Tired!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSTime for F.A.R.T. again!Wed Dec 11 1991 17:196
    
    	It sure is refreshing to log in here and read about basketball!
    How about some news! Scores!
    
    B.A.
    
17.2645"Rathole Note", indeed ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 11 1991 17:2620
    Just got back from a foray into the CELTICS conference to find out what
    all the fuss was about.  Looks pretty tame to me - somebody claims they
    read an article many years ago (from a publication they couldn't
    remember) that Dean wasn't putting out at a summer camp and ever since 
    he's hated his guts.  Most people who're replying are rushing to Dean's 
    defense ['sept for some guy named Heiser :^(].
    
    
    re: B.A.
    
    Aw knock it off.  I post enough factual information in here to
    fill up a decent sized disk.  All you do is pop in here and absorb all
    this info free of charge.  Why I oughta ...
    
    Tell ya what though.  Make yerself useful and find out who won the only
    ACC game_a the week: Maryland @ Louisville.  As usual my pitiful
    Atlanta Constitution doesn't have the score.  :^(  [Gawd what a
    horrible paper it is ...]
    
    
17.2646Louisville 96, Maryland 79BSS::JCOTANCHScott Norwood Fan ClubWed Dec 11 1991 17:372
    
    
17.2647Some ScoresRIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOIsiah Stole Christmas!Wed Dec 11 1991 17:4717
    Some scores:
    
    ALbany Pharmacy 74 Columbia-Greene 59
    Armstrong State 78 Claflin 62
    Bridgewater 71 Hampden-Sydney 64
    Georgia 77 South Alabama 61
    Wilkes 91 Baptist Bible 52
    Rio Grande 108 Wilberforce 30 (women)
    East Texas Baptist 86 Texas Wesleyan 72 (women)
    Virginia Intermont 97 Clinch Valley 86
    Virginia Tech 73 Erskine 68
    
    
    HTH
    
    JD
    
17.2648IBIS::B_ADAMSTime for F.A.R.T. again!Wed Dec 11 1991 17:549
17.2649I'M BACK... FINALLYIBIS::OGLESBYThu Dec 12 1991 00:5125
    Hey guys, I'm sorry I stop replying so suddenly, due to downsizing
    in my dept.
    
    Even though I did not have time to keep replying, I still tried to
    keep up with this conference as much as possible.
    
    But TWO things remain the same since my last reply.
                                
                             THEY ARE.
    
                     1       DEAN > knight
    
                     2       KNORR > hunt
    
       
    
    There is also something new on the horizon...
    
                             ROBICHAUD > mr. t
    
    
    
    BIG "O"
    
    
17.2650CAMONE::WAYI believe I'll dust my broomThu Dec 12 1991 09:2124
Well, the other shoe fell last night in the gym.....

One of the regular Nautilus dudes, was sportin' an Indiana shirt.  I'd
seen him before, and he's pretty "chiseled", but for some reason he
only works Nautilus.

Anyway, I asked the stupid question "Gee, are you an IU fan?"
He says, sure, and that he went there...

Must like Bob Knight, I say.
Sure, he's the best...

Then I ask him if he's seen the Pillsbury Doughboy (noticabley absent
last evening), and his UNC shirt.  And he said no.  I said "Typcial
Dean Smith fan".

And, as God is my witness this is no lie, the guy grabs his throat, makes
his eyes bulge, and makes a gagging sound...  Too funny.  I damn near
peed in my sweatpants...


This is gonna be an interesting winter.....

'Saw
17.2651ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Dec 12 1991 13:4811
    >I'm sorry I stop replying so suddenly,
    
    Oh, that's quite alright, Big "O", but frankly, ACCrock's purty
    much all used up at this point and so we *do* need some fresh
    Dean-meat to fry...
    
    re: .2650
    
    Haa.
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom
17.2652ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Dec 12 1991 14:1536
    >    It sure is refreshing to log in here and read about basketball!
    >How about some news! Scores!
    
    MODERATORS, this note has been trashed lately with non-sports-related
    crap like .2644.  As I understand it this notesfile is to be used only
    for sports-related replies.  B.A.'s note above was anything but.  This
    cain't go on.
    
    Please send him a warning mail axeing him to Cease and Desist from 
    his thrusting his non-sports-related crapulous commentary which
    cheapens the sports analysis experience for those of us who enter notes
    that are sports-related.  If he keeps it up maybe he should be ACL'd 
    out a here.  Or maybe he cain take his whiney-moany-woany-woe-is-me
    act to 73 where PERHAPS it could be accepted as "junk" (although I
    think that it's something less than junk, IMNSHO).
    
    Thanky.
    
    Now, back to meaty sports-related material:
    
    This Almost Close don't look so skeery this year.  You got your #1
    Duke, who'll probably stay #1 forever, or at least until Michigan
    matures.  You got your talented-but-underachieving Star Hells.  After
    that you got Tech, who may or may not perform at the highest levels 
    this year.  Virginia is mid-rank sorta like Indiana.  Who else? 
    Cupcake-munching Maryland?  Fake Forest?  NC Skate has the Googs but
    has holes, sorta like Indiana again.
    
    The Almost Close is just that.  They don't skeer anyone beyond the
    Blue Devils.  The Big Least must be down this year a bit.  Bring on
    the Tourney !!
    
    It's too bad that the Almost Close doesn't have a conference champion,
    cuz Duke deserves it.
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom
17.2653The catch is, we're still the #1 conference in America :^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Dec 12 1991 16:2614
    Gotta agree with MorT - the ACC is down this year compared to last. 
    Duke is better, but UNC isn't.  And Georgia Tech and Virginia are both
    starting freshman PG's.  Wake Forest's best guard (by far) has torn up
    his knee, which is gonna limit how far this club can go.  FSU looks
    *reel* shaky, Maryland and NC State are both well-coached but have
    serious talent shortcomings, and Clemson is poorly coached with serious
    talent shortcomings.
    
    All in all, a down year.  Course we do have 2/5 of the nations Top 5
    and four (4) or five (5) teams in the Top 20, but all-in-all a down
    year.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2654IBIS::B_ADAMSTime for F.A.R.T. again!Thu Dec 12 1991 16:5910
    MorT,
    
    	Have you looked into the mirror lately? Nuf'Said!  :*)
    
    As for the ACC, They may be down a little compared to lasted year, but
    they will still send at least 4 teams to the big dance.
    
    
    B.A.
    
17.2655FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu Dec 12 1991 17:043
    Any league worth its salt will send at least 4 teams to the big dance.
    
    John
17.2656RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Dec 12 1991 17:087
    re: .-1
    
    Agreed John.  Based on strength of schedule alone it would be virtually
    IMPOSSIBLE for the ACC to not send at least 4 teams.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2657RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOHennigans: NoSmell,NoTell...Thu Dec 12 1991 18:078
    who's zooming whom!  We all know that the selection committee will pick
    at least 7 from the ACC, with another 7 from the Big 10 and 7 from the
    big East.  Happens every year - so why fool around with the four crap.
    
    And the bottom seeds from those conferences will get better seeds than
    teams without <gasp> a big name rep.  No surprises.
    
    JD
17.2658Anybody have anymore details on this?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Dec 13 1991 11:1114
    For reasons I'm sure only they know, the Atlantic Coast Conference has
    *reversed* the 1-game suspension on FSU's Sam Cassell for Sunday's
    Carolina game.  This despite allegations that Cassell took a sharpened
    pencil into the horrible brawl last week against Florida A&M.
    
    I honestly don't understand this, but I'm sure they have their reasons. 
    (Like, gee, ESPN is televising the game and we wouldn't want to give
    'em *too* subpar_a product ...  Surprised they didn't lift Doug Edwards
    suspension as well ...)
    
    Stuff like this we can do without.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2659We now rejoin our "ACC soft on crime" debate...GUSHER::WAUGAMANFri Dec 13 1991 11:1411
    
>    I honestly don't understand this, but I'm sure they have their reasons. 
>    (Like, gee, ESPN is televising the game and we wouldn't want to give
>    'em *too* subpar_a product ...  Surprised they didn't lift Doug Edwards
>    suspension as well ...)
 
    ESPN denied any involvement in the decision and cited an ACC
    cover-up...
    
    glenn
       
17.2660CAMONE::WAYI believe I'll dust my broomFri Dec 13 1991 11:295
Maybe the FSU Seniors decided that a 1-game suspension was too much,
and they communicated that fact to the ACC.....


'Saw
17.2661truely a charitable act, misinterpreted by the mediaCST17::FARLEYfeed your Xmas Drood(tm) BethleHAM and CheeseFri Dec 13 1991 12:0610
    Nope, that weren't it.
    
    The FSU guy took the pencil ONLY to show the A&M guys how to
    write "I will not fight" 'cause he knew their SAT scores were
    approximately the same as the number of titles Dean has!  
    
    hth,
    
    Kev_concerned_with_stamping_out_Illiteracy!
    
17.2662ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Dec 13 1991 13:326
    The Almost Close Conference never ceases to amaze me.  It seems that
    you cain have a good ol' fashioned basketball riot down there and 
    everything's gonna be ok.  It's hard to understand why a inciter to
    riot artist like Norm ever left this hoops, er, "hotbed."
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom
17.2663RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOReach out and taunt someoneFri Dec 13 1991 14:179
    
    Gee, too bad that didn't happen in the Big East of the Big10, so we
    could hear a sermon from Chris about how 'those things don't happen in
    the ACC...'
    
    Hey, if a women beater can get no punishment, a guy wandering around
    looking for a pencil sharpener doesn't deserve a suspension either.
    
    JD
17.2664Objective Analyst struck down by subjectivism yet again ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Dec 13 1991 15:579
    If any of you Weasels ever wonder why the rhetoric gets so thick in
    here, take a look at yerselves.  Here I go and offer up criticism of my
    beloved ACC and all I get is condemnation! 
    
    For shame, gentlemen.  For shame ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.2665MrT called this one to a tee...GUSHER::WAUGAMANFri Dec 13 1991 16:0310
    
    I think only JD even mentioned your name, oh paranoid one.  Besides,
    it was obvious you were only trying to deflect in advance the 
    inevitable criticism (as it was expounded in great detail a couple
    of days ago by MrT that the difference between the ACC and the Big
    Ten is in the *punishments*) or we wouldn't have heard word one
    about this little incident, now would we?   ;-)
    
    glenn
    
17.2666Where do you criticize?SHALOT::MEDVIDsing your lifeFri Dec 13 1991 16:1122
>    For reasons I'm sure only they know, the Atlantic Coast Conference has
>    *reversed* the 1-game suspension on FSU's Sam Cassell for Sunday's
>    Carolina game.  This despite allegations that Cassell took a sharpened
>    pencil into the horrible brawl last week against Florida A&M.
>    
>    I honestly don't understand this, but I'm sure they have their reasons. 
>    (Like, gee, ESPN is televising the game and we wouldn't want to give
>    'em *too* subpar_a product ...  Surprised they didn't lift Doug Edwards
>    suspension as well ...)
>    
>    Stuff like this we can do without.
    
    You offer no criticism whatsoever here, Chris.  You are stating fact. 
    Then you even go on to your pet peeve, the media, trying to deflect
    some of this dark light onto ESPN.
    
    Criticism, friend, would be something like: "Boy, the ACC sure has done
    something assinine now by..."
    
    HTH.
    
    	--dan'l
17.2667'Tis the Season to Continue Pounding ACC Chris. Fa la la la la lalaRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Dec 13 1991 16:2410
    re: .-1
    
    I'd say the statement "Stuff like this we can do without" implies
    criticism.  And I'm not deflecting criticism to the media - if the ACC
    bows to any pressure put on by ESPN that's *their* fault.
    
    I'm sure Dean is also displeased by this latest development, BTW.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2668CNTROL::MACNEALruck `n' rollFri Dec 13 1991 16:404
17.2669Oh.SHALOT::MEDVIDsing your lifeFri Dec 13 1991 16:4015
>    I'd say the statement "Stuff like this we can do without" implies

    Oh, so you just meant that as a general statement.  Being that it
    follows your accusation that ESPN might have something to do with it, I
    would think the average reader would take "stuff like that" as meaning
    ESPN's tampering.  

>    I'm sure Dean is also displeased by this latest development, BTW.

    Yeah, he was so upset when his ass coach accosted a ref and his players
    got into a shoving match with the police last March, I can see him now
    wondering "how much time is left" before the ACC gets strict on these
    types of incidents.

    	--dan'l
17.2670RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Dec 13 1991 16:5117
    > before the ACC gets strict ...
    
    No dan'l.  No.  See, I got documented evidence that the head of
    officials of the ACC, Fred Barakat, states that the official blew it
    when he whistled Dean up TWICE for what can only be described as the
    most minor of infractions.
    
    The ACC, BTW, is long regarded as having the best officiating of any
    conference in the USA.
    
    FWIW though, I wish the police woulda minded their own business so the
    Carolina players and coaches could've gotten in a few on an official
    clearly out of his mind with motives of retribution and humiliation.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.2671Final few words...SHALOT::MEDVIDsing your lifeFri Dec 13 1991 17:0812
    So what you're saying is that Dean did not commit an infraction that,
    by the NCAA Basketball Rule Book, results in a Technical Foul?
    
>See, I got documented evidence that the head of
>    officials of the ACC, Fred Barakat, states that the official blew it
    
    Tell us, do you keep this document in your bathroom and are the pages
    stuck together?
    
    I'm history.
    
    	--dan'l
17.2672ACChris condones King Rice-style thuggery!GUSHER::WAUGAMANFri Dec 13 1991 17:181
    
17.2673pleasurable prescience palpatates pubumsANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYRedSox,Broncos,MoiraLasch,DeanFri Dec 13 1991 17:251
    
17.2674CAMONE::WAYI believe I'll dust my broomFri Dec 13 1991 18:0315
Dean broke the rules.

He got called...


As my mother used to tell me when I was a little boy "Serves you right",
and that's what happened to Dean.

And then, to have the assistant coach and the team sully their reputations
by trying to assault the poor ref...

Well...  'nuff said....


'Saw
17.2675RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOReach out and taunt someoneFri Dec 13 1991 18:1212
    Oh boy - the haid of officials of the ACC - a guy that probably has his
    thumb up Dean's butt, says the other official blew the call.  Pretty
    bush league for this official to do that.  
    
    The only person who blew anything, Chris, was Dean Smith - who blew his
    cool, blew his cookies, and blew his teams chance to make the
    champeenship game by once again demonstrating that he's perhaps the
    worst big-game college basketball coach in history.  That's all that
    was blown Chris.  Ever since then, the ACC has once again been forced
    to spin-control to cover up for Mr. Overrated of UNC.  
    
    JD
17.2676FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Mon Dec 16 1991 10:375
    In the ACC opener at Chapel Hill yesterday and in the firsted ACC game
    for the Seminoles, it was Florida State 86, North Carolina 74.  Have at
    it, gentlemen.
    
    John
17.2677Gag job starting 3 months early!HPSRAD::RIEURead his Lips...Know new taxesMon Dec 16 1991 10:423
       Obviously a excellent loss for the obviously overacheiving
    Deansters.
                                      Denny
17.2678Should be about 100 Notes in here today!WLDWST::RCARRUTHERSNight Flier: ~~v~~Mon Dec 16 1991 10:5110
     FSU beats North Carolina.......hmmmmmmmm let's see now. Syracuse beats
    FSU. FSU beats North Carolina ergo Syracuse is better than North
    Carolina and FSU.  Correct!? ( Lot's and lot's of smiley faces!!)

     Just thought I would throw a little more fire on the Uletide(sp) log! 
    Tis the season to have a little fun!!! Can't wait to hear the North
    Carolina back and forth shooting match!

                                                   Night Flier   ~~v~~
17.2679CNTROL::CHILDSSpecializing in feather ruffling notesMon Dec 16 1991 12:0915
  First off you're the one who alledged that Caswell went after a pencil. The
  lowlights as replayed by ESPN showed Caswell being one of the very few with
  enough cool to try and break the thing up.

  Like I said before you and Dean were scared to face them heads up. I guess
  it shows....

  Missed alot fo the Duke game but I hear Mr. Webber took a shine to Christy...

  Thanks My JH for an excellent start to the day...

 BTW CHris is training in Bedford conviently....

 mike
17.2680ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYRedSox,Broncos,MoiraLasch,DeanMon Dec 16 1991 12:4110
    Anybody have a_idea why the Star Hells, going up against a team missing
    three players, at home, and with a great recruiting class in its 2nd
    year, 7-2 Eric Montross only manages to chuck in a lousy 7 points.  It
    would seem that they could just arc the pill in there and watch him rack
    up 25-30 points in close-in Js and jump hooks.  
    
    Snuffy always plays to win, right?  So why didn't they.
    
    MrT 
    
17.2681Who said we don't get fresh material ???SHALOT::HUNTMusicians For Free-Range ChickensMon Dec 16 1991 13:1613
 In anticipation of the inevitable new entries to the Excuse Bible ...
 
 1) They were pumped because they were playing in their first-ever ACC game.
 1A) ... and it was in our building, too, so they were extra-pumped.
 
 2) They were pumped because they were missing their stud players.
 
 3) We were flat because it's much too early in the season to be playing
    ACC games.
 
 4) Early season winning streaks are too hard to keep going.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2682ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYRedSox,Broncos,MoiraLasch,DeanMon Dec 16 1991 14:237
    Well, if it's pumps they need buy that Montross kid some Pumps, cuz
    with his nice soft touch and gargantuan bod he shoulda been able to
    have chucked in at least 20 points last night.
    
    Emotional considerations aside, a course.
    
    MrT
17.2683The SystemAXIS::CHAPPELI'm a victim of circumstanceMon Dec 16 1991 14:3117
17.2684FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Mon Dec 16 1991 14:407
    Some sad news from ACC land - Dean Smith's father died Saturday night
    of complications from pneumonia.  He died before the game and Dean
    wasn't told until afterward.
    
    My condolences to the Smith family.
    
    John
17.2685Michael Jordan Implicated In Financial Scandal!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMrT: SPORTS' Objective AnalystMon Dec 16 1991 14:569
    More sad news from ACC land.  The United States Government has charged
    a_entrepreneur with, I think, tax evasion.  Seems the guy was concealing
    income, pacifically, $50,000.  The government sez that he won the dough
    from one Michael Jordan on the links and didn't declare it.  Michael
    and the accused claim that it was a loan made to finance a driving range.
    The U.S. Governement sez it doesn't have Jordan under investigation at
    this time, but plans to call him to testify if the case goes to court.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.2686CAMONE::WAYI believe I'll dust my broomMon Dec 16 1991 15:3820
|
|     That's an easy question to answer MrT, simply put, it's;
|
|		The System


Chap, 

To further elaborate:


	Because Dean IS The System and The System IS Dean

THEREFORE:

	IT'S DEAN.......


'Saw

17.2687RAVEN1::B_ADAMSTime for F.A.R.T. again!Mon Dec 16 1991 16:5510
    
    	T, That's old news about the golf deals... :*)
    
    As for the Tar Babies!  What a waste! What would the score have been if
    Fla St. had the other members playing with them?
    
    C'mon Chris, let's hear the saga again!
    
    B.A.
    
17.2688nothing to strive forANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYMrT: SPORTS' Objective AnalystMon Dec 16 1991 18:155
    It's too damned bad that the Almost Close doesn't quite have a 
    conference Championship cuz losing to a short-handed riot-prone
    debutante squad like FSU woulda hurt them bad against Duke.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.2689Don't worry,We'll be back...RAVEN1::OGLESBYBlue HeavenMon Dec 16 1991 21:5726
         Calm down weasels,just a litle set-back.
    Every team has 1 or 2 upsets during the year
    and N.C. is no exception.
         
        Just wait and see Dean carry this team futher
    than you think without the talent he usually has.
    His soph.class is not as good as we all thought them
    to be,but the GREAT ONE will find a way to at least
    continue our sweet sixteen streak,maybe better with
    a little luck.
    
    
       Hey Big Ten people,I have a new second favorite team:
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Can you say  W O L V E R I N E S !!!
    
    
17.2690RAVEN1::B_ADAMSTime for F.A.R.T. again!Mon Dec 16 1991 22:566
    re-1,
    
    	Jumping on bandwagons are we?  Can't pull for anything but the ACC
    around here ya know!
    
    B.A.
17.2691sad, so vewy vewy sadANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewTue Dec 17 1991 12:4713
    >the GREAT ONE will find a way to at least continue our sweet 
    >sixteen streak,maybe better with a little luck
    
    Well that about sums it all up, doesn't it?
    
    1) Suffering a_Excellent Loss is the goal, and the goal often
       enough attained (endured?) amounts to Greatness,
    
    2) It doesn't take Greatness to cash in on the talent and the 
       system and the effort in the form a a Championship, it takes
       luck.
    
    MrT
17.2692More on Snuffer's loss to 'Noles ...SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeTue Dec 17 1991 14:4023
More on the Heels' most excellent loss to the Seminoles ...

During the pre-game ceremony, UNC team officials presented a shiny new 
basketball to the Florida State team as a commemorative gift celebrating 
the Seminoles' first ACC tilt.  The Carolina fans then offered a standing 
ovation to the Seminoles ... again as a hearty welcome to the conference.

Whereupon, the Seminoles then proceeded to blow the Heels right outta the 
building.   Several State players were quoted after the game in wonderment 
at how quiet and polite the crowd was ... to a man they all said they 
dreaded going to Cameron but felt very comfortable playing in the Dean E. 
Smith Student Activities Center.

Florida State is now 2-11 lifetime against North Carolina.   Their first 
win, of course, was in the 1972 Final Four and now they've racked up their 
second "W", their very first conference win.   

Gotta love the ol' Snuffmeister ... he knows exactly which ones to lose, 
doesn't he ???

Bob Hunt

P.S.   RIP Alfred Smith, 93 years old.
17.2693CSC32::P_PAPACEKTue Dec 17 1991 15:337
    
    Not that it makes much difference, but I heard that Dean Smith was told 
    of his father's death before the game, but did not tell the players 
    until afterwards. 
    
    Pat
    
17.2694"6 Talent Wins - 1 Excellent Loss" - BobHuntRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Dec 17 1991 15:5217
    > he knows exactly which ones to lose
    
    Gee, I thought it was only NCAA Tourney losses that were the "right"
    ones.  Now we find that, no, run-of-the-mill regular season games can
    also be "right".  Let me sum things up for ya Bob.  *Anytime* Dean
    Smith-coached teams lose a game it's a choke.  *Anytime* they win, it's
    a talent win.  Sound fair?
    
    BTW, the fact that Carolina just finished finals week and only
    practiced once or twice no doubt played a large factor in our poor
    execution.  Aloso I can only imagine what Dean's father situation
    had on the team.  Finally, I had tickets to this game but couldn't go. 
    I'll be hearing from my dad on just how quiet the crowd was though.
    [No doubt it was *very* quiet ... :^(]
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2695RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOOnly a few hours til vacation!Tue Dec 17 1991 16:0818
    Chris -
    
    The team didn't know about Dean's father.  Dean did.  The players
    didn't know (unless all the accounts of the game are wrong.)
    
    Second, not every loss by Deanster is a choke - just like not every win
    is a glorious example of his diety-like status as a coach.
    
    The plain fact is they couldn't shut down FSU's big gun - and they
    didn't utilize their depth - especially on the front line - to wear
    down an undermanned squad.
    
    I thought the result surprising - but it's too early in the season to
    pass too many judgements.  Of course, I can name one ACC noter who
    passed a whole lot of judgements on a certain Big10 coach after the
    FIRST game of the season (vs. a ranked team, no less...)
    
    JD
17.2696AXIS::ROBICHAUDRedSox,Broncos,MoriaLaschTue Dec 17 1991 16:314
    	Hey ACChris, why don't you just poormouth the Heels talent like
    Phineas (Mr)T. Bluster does when the Loosiers blow one.
    
    				/Don 
17.2697HPSRAD::RIEURead his Lips...Know new taxesTue Dec 17 1991 16:432
       He did that Slasher, but nobody buys it. 'ceptin you a course!!
                                                Denny
17.2698ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJust what did M. Fouquet know?Tue Dec 17 1991 16:5527
    >    Hey ACCris, why don't you just poormouth the Heels talent like
    >Phinease (Mr)T. Bluster does when the Loosiers blow one.
    
    Is the weight of that top-o'-de-haid pony tale tugging at your brain,
    Splasher.  Poor MrT "poormouthed" his Hoosiers' talent *before* the
    danged season started, following up on the same line of objective
    fact-based analysis that's been a running theme since '87 (i.e., no
    center, poor shooting guards).  Moreover, my analysis was repeatedly
    corroborated by ACC-main Billy Packer.  I needn't mention the fact
    that Indiana has been experimenting with 3-guard lineups, which is 
    what they started with 6-2 Damon against U. Kaintuck and 6-4 GGraham
    since.
    
    Oh, btw, ACCrock has already embarrassed himself and the rest of us
    by poormouthing the ultra-talented Star Hells.
    
    re: ACCrockmeister
    
    Hey buddy, you were in here a month ago badmouthing BobKnight for
    having had a "close call" against FSU in last year's tourney (we won't
    go into the fack that the Hoosiers won by 17 points).
    
    Fair enough.  So how do YOU explain a homecourt loss to the same team
    minus 3 key players only 9 months later?  If you're so danged objective
    you'll have some scathing criticisms for Snuffer in here reel quick!
    
    Big10 MrT
17.2699A Most Excellent "Finals Week" LossSCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeTue Dec 17 1991 16:5715
17.2700the Weasels rejoiceCNTROL::CHILDSSpecializing in feather ruffling notesTue Dec 17 1991 17:574
that was a dandy I can hardly wait for LXVIII....

 ;^)
17.2701ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYBroncos: '91 AFC West Champs!!Tue Dec 17 1991 19:0513
    I await my answer, ACCrock!
    
    You are confronted with a choice:
    
    1) Admit that you were wrong to criticism Bob for squeaking by FSU
       a mere 17 points, or
    
    2) Explain how the same team minus 3 players could blow out the Star
       Hells in the FalseIdol Dome.
    
    Tap tap tap...
    
    MrT
17.2702RAVEN1::B_ADAMSTime for F.A.R.T. again!Tue Dec 17 1991 19:263
    We're waiting...
    
    
17.2703Deja ExcuseSCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeTue Dec 17 1991 19:2710
17.2704FDCV06::KINGBe nice to me, I'm a Pheresis Donor!!Tue Dec 17 1991 23:335
    I'm gonna hate myself in the morning but Chris is in Bedford training
    and does not have a lot of time to access to a terminal... BUT
    when he gets back to having a terminal handy I say we WASTE IM!
    
    REK
17.2705CAMONE::WAYI believe I'll dust my broomWed Dec 18 1991 09:545
>    I'm gonna hate myself in the morning but Chris is in Bedford training
>    and does not have a lot of time to access to a terminal... BUT
>    when he gets back to having a terminal handy I say we WASTE IM!
    
Gee, Chris must be having FINALS this week too.....
17.2706HPSRAD::RIEURead his Lips...Know new taxesWed Dec 18 1991 10:092
       Is Crisp going to show at the 'Bull?
                                      Denny
17.2707CAMONE::WAYI believe I'll dust my broomWed Dec 18 1991 10:345
>       Is Crisp going to show at the 'Bull?
>                                      Denny


Only if Pepper shows too 8^)
17.2708SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeWed Dec 18 1991 11:226
17.2709CAMONE::WAYI believe I'll dust my broomWed Dec 18 1991 11:385
Bob, did you ever get that mail I sent you late last week?


'Saw

17.2710Think soSCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeWed Dec 18 1991 11:435
17.2711CAMONE::WAYI believe I'll dust my broomWed Dec 18 1991 11:5810
>I think so, 'Saw.   About your Christmas Essay, right ???

Yep.

Just wanted to be sure it got through, because sometimes there's
problems when I send VAXmail to SHALOT, because you use that
ALL-IN-One thingie or whatever it's called 8^)


'Saw
17.2712RIP to Dean's Dad and BUO.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 18 1991 14:4222
Eyewitness accounts from last Sundays Florida State win over North Carolina
are so ugly I really can't repeat them.  Suffice to say one of the worst
showings by a Carolina basketball team in the past decade took place, with
players and fans alike joining in the responsibility for this 'L'.  (Dean
is excused from blame of course, given the obvious strain he was under
cause of his dad's heart attack and subsequent death.)

In any case a loss like this is best forgotten as quickly as possible, which
is what the Heels seems to have done given their trouncing yesterday of
Jacksonville to advance to 7-1.  Based on expectations you'd have to say
UNC is overachieving at this point.  Whether that will continue or not
will, to a large degree, depend upon somebody besides Hubert Davis can
hit an outside shot.  Seems FSU was packing it in big-time against UNC
and keying on Davis.  NOBODY, repeat, *NOBODY*, stepped up and knocked
down a shot.  You can be sure we'll see this defense again and again 
until either the losses start to pile up or we find another shooter.

:^(


- ACC Chris
    
17.2713STRATA::CAPPELWed Dec 18 1991 14:5213
    Overachieving??? Based on what....
    
    The 5 cupcakes they've played so far????  If they played a tough
    schedule and got to 7-1 than I would say they were overachieving.
    So far they've played an embarrassingly easy schedule.....
    
    Losing to Fla. State minus 3 players and almost losing to  
    Jacksonville(the Heels were down by 13 in the 2nd half) is 
    hardly overachieving.
    
    Do you think NC can get by an extremely weak Purdue team at home????
    
    
17.2714STRATA::CAPPELWed Dec 18 1991 14:579
    New excuse Mr. Hunt, it's the fan's fault.
    
    >fans alike joining in the responsibility for this 'L'
    
    USA Today reported that Dean was not informed of his Father's death
    until after the game.  It's a sad event and I'm surprised that Dean
    would even coach under those circumstances....Must of have been tough
    if he had known before the game.
    
17.2715CAMONE::WAYI believe I'll dust my broomWed Dec 18 1991 14:5925
>are so ugly I really can't repeat them.  Suffice to say one of the worst
>showings by a Carolina basketball team in the past decade took place, with
>players and fans alike joining in the responsibility for this 'L'.  (Dean
>is excused from blame of course, given the obvious strain he was under
>cause of his dad's heart attack and subsequent death.)

NOT!

That's like saying Buffalo lost the SB last year because of their fans...

Dean should not be excused from BLAM.  If he is the consumate professional
you've always described him to be, I'm sure he came through like he's
supposed to.

My feelings DO go out to the man.  My own father is getting older, and
you always wonder, so I understand that.

But BLAMing the fans yet not Dean is a weenie thing to do, Chris...


btw, how are the finals going ;^)


'Saw    

17.2716Still more ...SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeWed Dec 18 1991 15:1427
Every report I've read says that Alfred Smith suffered his heart attack in 
a Raleigh hospital a mere half an hour or so before the tip-off against 
Florida State.  The reports also go on to say that Dean's wife, Linella, 
was the very first person to break the bad news to him and this was 
immediately *AFTER* the game.

There's no way Dean Smith can be completely absolved in this loss given 
that he had *no* knowledge of his father's death until after the game was 
over.   And, believe me in all honesty, I'd be the first to one to cut him 
some major slack if he did indeed hear of his father's passing before the 
game.    

Dean has said nothing to indicate that the reports aren't accurate.  The 
Heels were just plain flat.   Their wins over Houston and Seton Hall are 
quality wins but they look awfully shaky now compared with this stunner 
against the Seminoles.   And, yes, they were down lasted night against the 
Jax Dolphins until George Lynch single-handedly whipped the team back into 
form.

And here is a nice thing I read about Alfred Smith.   The Smith family, as 
most people know, grew up in Kansas farm country.   Alfred Smith was the 
small town high school basketball coach for 15 or so years during the 
1930's and 1940's.   Alfred Smith was one of the first high school coaches 
in the country to play and start a black student.    Back then, that was a 
very controversial thing to do.   Snuffy had a very fine father.

Bob Hunt  
17.2717Couldn't be the fans' fault ...SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeWed Dec 18 1991 15:2120
17.2718Close but no ceegarHPSRAD::RIEURead his Lips...Know new taxesWed Dec 18 1991 15:243
       Gee Chris, if you hadn't put in the obligatory 'absolving of Snuffy
    from BLAM' in your note, it actually looks like people mighta bought it!!
                                        Denny
17.2719GUSHER::WAUGAMANWed Dec 18 1991 15:3013
    
> And here is a nice thing I read about Alfred Smith.   The Smith family, as 
> most people know, grew up in Kansas farm country.   Alfred Smith was the 
> small town high school basketball coach for 15 or so years during the 
> 1930's and 1940's.   Alfred Smith was one of the first high school coaches 
> in the country to play and start a black student.    Back then, that was a 
> very controversial thing to do.   Snuffy had a very fine father.
  
    In this particular quality (human relations) I would have to
    objectively say that the Snuffer has also done his father proud...
    
    glenn
    
17.2720after all, maybe it's hereditaryANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJust what did M. Fouquet know?Wed Dec 18 1991 23:534
    Anybody got the numbers on how old Alfred did when the clutch was
    down in the state tournament?
    
    MrT
17.2721RAVEN1::B_ADAMSTime for F.A.R.T. again!Thu Dec 19 1991 08:528
    	Pitiful loss for State last night...Princeton came out and put it
    too them. Even though they took it to O.T. there was not enough man
    power to overcome.  Gugoo eyes needs to stick to fundamentals in
    dribbling.

    	How did Va turn out?
    B.A.
17.2722BummerSCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeThu Dec 19 1991 11:4710
Tough night for the ACC lasted night ...

NC State goes down to Princeton at home in overtime.   Georgia Tech loses 
by a point to Georgia at the Omni and Virginia loses, 54-52, to the Univ of 
New Orleans Privateers for the 2nd year in a row ... this time in Nawlins, 
at least.

Ouch ...

Bob Hunt
17.2723Throw it in reverse and start pedaling ...SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeThu Dec 19 1991 11:5623
Oh, and one more thing ... The shocking Florida State win in the Deandome 
on Sunday is *still* getting some ink in the local papers.   I caught the 
slightest little whiff of a most yummy piece of information ...

During Carolina's horrible showing against the short-handed 'Noles, our man 
Snuffy placed his studly junior forward George Lynch on the pine for quite 
a long time.   George was having a terrible game and the Snuffer yanked him.

Lynch, of course, looked a *LOT* better on Tuesday night against 
Jacksonville as he almost single-handledly rallied the sleeping Heels from 
a 13-point deficit to avoid a second straight upset loss to a Sunshine 
State team.

My question, of course, must be this ...  How in the world could a coach as 
"great" as Dean Smith even think for a moment about putting his star 
forward on the bench in such a crucial game ???   I mean, the poor lad 
musta been humiliated and embarassed.    Not to mention that Smith threw 
away any chance he had of winning the game, a home conference game no less.   
Must be some deep dark ego problem ...

Perch and twirl, mon ami ...

Bob Hunt
17.2724RAVEN1::B_ADAMSTime for F.A.R.T. again!Thu Dec 19 1991 13:4710
17.2725"Fab Five" not as good ??? Pass me that J ...SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeThu Dec 19 1991 18:5538
17.2726robo-centerCNTROL::CHILDSMerry Christmas EveryoneThu Dec 19 1991 19:168
 I mean you think the Snuffer could teach Montross how to use his left hand
 by now. He's very mechanical in everything he does. Had the Jaxs' had anybody
 say 6' 9" or so. Montross wouldn't have had half the game he did the other
 night. Very slow footwork. If he doesn't get improve a bunch over the next
 two years then I'd venture to see we'll see the reincarnation of Greg Kite....

 mike
17.2727A 7-foot Eddie MunsterSCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeThu Dec 19 1991 19:376
17.2728CNTROL::CHILDSMerry Christmas EveryoneFri Dec 20 1991 09:373
 Kite's got a crew now too...besides Fred knows how to use his left and how
 to go to the hole...
17.2729CAMONE::WAYI believe I'll dust my broomFri Dec 20 1991 09:5720
You gotta love Fred....


Caught the tail end of the HBO sport special lasted night, and they
showed Snuffer's one champeenship.  After Fred Brown threw the ball
to Worthy, the camera cuts to Snuffer.

Swear to God, the main looked like he was in shock.  I saw the thang
live back then, but what dawned on me lasted night was how this
man has lived and preached, eat, breathed and shat the System for
years and years and years, and yet when you come right down to it,
his Champeenship came because of a silly, unlucky mistake.

He looked like he thought someone was gonna walk up and take it away
from him....

sheesh....


'Saw
17.2730He can recruit, but can he coach? Verdict still out ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 30 1991 11:0018
    Tough time to be a Cavs fan.  Their basketball team goes on the road
    and gets handed a_couple_a upset losses, and then their football teams
    gets completely and thoroughly humiliated on national TV.
    
    Ouch!
    
    BTW, I'm concerned about Jeff Jones.  After getting off to a good start
    during his rookie year the W's haven't exactly been flooding in. 
    Granted I predicted some tough times with a rookie PG (as opposed to
    Bryant Stith, who slapped the poor gutty kid in the face by saying UVa
    would be *so* much better now that they cain finally play uptempo) but
    things are moving slower than anyone anticipated.
    
    The question is, will these tough road L's serve as character builders,
    or destroy team confidence?  Time will tell ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2731ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYLive human male exotic dancerMon Dec 30 1991 13:287
    Hey Crockmeister, you've got two batches a sports-related fair-
    minded fact-based questions from Cap left unanswered, and one
    similar question axed by me.  You gonna answer them?
    
    Or are you skeert.
    
    MrT
17.2732Strange day for affection, I'll say.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 30 1991 16:0215
    The Cavaliers dropped their *FOURTH* hoops game of the season yesterday
    and their football team got embarassed on national TV, and BobHunt's got 
    the kids kissing the ground on the Virginia campus.  Go figure.
    
    
    re: .-1
    
    I have answered each and EVERY question ever put forth to me.  It's not
    my fault you and Cap have faulty memories and can't remember the
    answers.  (BTW, the Poop Sheet labels Indiana one of this seasons three
    (3) biggest busts, along with LSU and Villanova.  Gotta agree,
    although I'd put Virginia right up there at this point as well ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2733which is it?ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYLive human male exotic dancerMon Dec 30 1991 16:156
    >I have answered each and EVERY question put forth to me.
    
    The guy's totally let loose a Reality.  Either that or he's a
    pathological fibber.
    
    MrT
17.2734Questions. (And Answers. Plenty of 'em.) :^|RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 30 1991 18:3292
Q:	How many games has Dean Smith won?
A:	To date, 724.

Q:	What's his overall winning percentage?
A:	He's 724 - 210, which calculates to a winning percentage of 78%.

Q:	Wow, that's alot.  Doesn't UNC typically play one of the toughest
	schedules in the country?
A:	They sure do!

Q:	What about the NCAA Tournament.  How many's he won?
A:	Forty-seven (47), which is more than any other coach in the history 
	of college basketball.

Q:	What about his winning percentage in the tourney?
A:	Around 70%.  He's also been to a record-setting 11 consecutive
	Sweet 16's.

Q:	Most people recognize reaching the Final 4 as a successful season.
	How many time's has Dean done it?
A:	In thirty (30) years of coaching, Dean Smith's reached the Final 4
	NINE (9) times.

Q:	Gee, that's alot.  How many times has BobKnight done it?
A:	Three (3).

Q:	How many Titles has Dean won?
A:	If you're talking NCAA Championships, one (1).  He's also
	won an NIT Title, an Olympic Gold, thirteen (13) ACC Championships,
	and countless ACC regular season Titles.

Q:	By any statistical measure you'd have to say Dean Smith has been
	an outrageously successful coach.  I believe he was even inducted
	into the Hall of Fame, no?
A:	Of course.  I've seen his bronze mug with my own eyes in 
	Springfield, Massachusetts.

Q:	Yes, but what about the intangibles.  Has he done a good job of
	encouraging kids to get their degree?
A:	Dean's graduation percentage is over 95%, and it'll go higher
	once JR Reid earns his degree.

Q:	What about teaching players the fundamentals of the game?  He's
	known as a good recruiter, but does he develop that talent?
A:	Better than any coach in America.  The number of players who
	have gone from Chapel Hill to the pros is unparalleled in the
	college game.  There are currently eleven (11) North Carolina alum's
	in the NBA.  Ask any NBA talent evaluator and he'll tell you that
	players from North Carolina have a leg up on their conterparts.
	This stems not from talent but from the intangibles they've learned
	from Coach Smith.  Rick Fox is the most recent example of this.

Q:	It's often true that you can measure the greatness of a coach
	by the success his pupils have when they go on to coach.  Bear
	Bryant was known for this.  What about Dean?
A:	The list of people who have learned the game from Coach
	Smith and gone on to coaching success is indeed *long*.  Here's
	a partial list off the top of my haid:

	Larry Brown
	John Kuester 
	George Karl
	Doug Moe
	Billy Cunningham
	Roy Williams
	Jeff Lebo
	Jimmy Black
	Matt Doherty
	Buzz Peterson
	Phil Ford
	Eddie Fogler

	All of these people have gone on to various degrees of coaching
	success.

Q:	Wow.  It's amazing that there's really much of a debate in this
	whole thing, isn't it?
A:	There really is no debate.  Dean's greatness is unquestioned,
	as even his greatest critic has admitted.  The *only* reason
	so many people don't like him stems from the singular human 
	emotion of jealousy.  People simply do NOT like to see someone
	have so much success without even a whiff of controversy. 

Q:	What other questions can possible be asked?
A:	Ah, the best question yet!  Don't worry though - the weasels
        are *masters* in the art of obfuscation and will think of
    	something trivial to rat_on about ....  :^(

	
- ACC Chris
    
    
17.2735You had me until this one. Sorry.SHALOT::MEDVIDKooler than JesusMon Dec 30 1991 18:409
    
>Q:	Wow.  It's amazing that there's really much of a debate in this
>	whole thing, isn't it?
>A:	There really is no debate.  Dean's greatness is unquestioned,
>	as even his greatest critic has admitted.  The *only* reason
>	so many people don't like him stems from the singular human 
>	emotion of jealousy.  People simply do NOT like to see someone
>	have so much success without even a whiff of controversy. 
    
17.2736Bite the bullet dan'l and admit to Dean's Greatness.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 30 1991 18:5212
    What part don't you buy dan'l?  It's a fact that BobHunt, King
    Weasel-Extraordinaire, has called Dean great.  You'd also have to agree
    that Dean's done it the "right" way, with no recruiting violations and
    little controversy.  (The KingRice fiasco was about the worst it's 
    gotten in 30+ years.)
    
    I'll grant you that I've subjectively come to the conclusion that the
    motives for anti-Dean behavior are rooted in jealousy, but is there
    really any other satisfactory answer?  [no]
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2737No way this time!!!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Mon Dec 30 1991 19:0430
17.2738Try these ...SHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetMon Dec 30 1991 19:0425
 Rollward, Soup.   Funniest piece I've read in a long time.   Now answer
 some of these ...
 
 Q:  Why has he failed to win more than 1 NCAA title in his 9 trips to the
 Final Four spread over a 30 year coaching career ???   Explain why his
 annual success inside his team's conference, arguably the strongest in the
 country over the lasted 25 years, has failed to produce the same level of
 consistency on the national level.
 
 Q:  Why is his NCAA Tournament winning %age *significantly* less than his
 regular season winning %age ???   Given that a delta of plus/minus 5 %age
 points is an acceptable margin for error, explain why his NCAA record is
 close to 10 %age points *below* his normal record ???    See "Krzyzewski,
 Mike" for comparative analysis.
 
 Q:  Why has he *consistently* lost NCAA Tournament games to underdog teams
 like Florida State, Syracuse, Marquette, San Francisco, Penn, Texas A&M,
 Georgia, Indiana, Villanova, Michigan, and Kansas ???
 
 Q:  How come he didn't know how much time was left ???
 
 When you can answer these questions and others like it without consulting
 your Excuse Bible, then maybe we can all stop laughing.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2739Call 1-800-JUNK-HEELS for Baby Blue Rehab CenterSHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetMon Dec 30 1991 19:4020
17.2740Soup caught with his pants down againSHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetTue Dec 31 1991 01:2312
17.2741CAMONE::WAYWake up Mamma, turn your lamp down lowTue Dec 31 1991 10:208
That question and answer sheet reminded me of those pre-packaged
Q&A sheets in advertisments for swampland in Florida disguised as
beautiful housing projects.

Mighty shakey....


'Saw
17.2742FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Tue Dec 31 1991 10:417
    Knight's teams have reached the Final Four 4 times (1973, 1976, 1981
    and 1987) and have won 3 National Titles.  Indiana, under Knight, has
    also won the NIT and he also coached the US to an Olympic Gold Medal.
    
    Make the comparisons fair and accurate, gentlemen.
    
    John
17.2743haaaCNTROL::CHILDSBang!Bang! Let the Music go Bang!Tue Dec 31 1991 11:266
atleast now we know how you spent your vacation.....

;^)


17.2744More IgknorringHPSRAD::RIEURead his Lips...Know new taxesTue Dec 31 1991 11:273
    Hey Bob, 
       Crisp seems to be avoiding this topic since your last note.
                                     Denny
17.2745My motive based on chokability, not jealousySHALOT::MEDVIDKooler than JesusTue Dec 31 1991 11:2813
>           -< Bite the bullet dan'l and admit to Dean's Greatness. >-
>
>    What part don't you buy dan'l?  
    
    I don't buy the fact that you said we are jealous.  Jealous of what?  
    Smith is a poor big game (i.e., Final Four) coach and there are pleanty
    I'd take to coach my team before him.  There is nothing to be jealous
    of.
    
    That's all.
    
    	--dan'l
    
17.2746RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOSherman,Himmler,Sheridan,Goebels,CusterTue Dec 31 1991 12:4122
    No matter how you slice and dice the numbers Soup, you can't cover up
    the one BIG one - yep that ONE nexted to the Deanster's title numbers. 
    The more glowing stats you enter about how great he is, the more that
    ONE, Dean's albatross, looms as it hangs around his neck.  You cain try
    to cover it by burying it in with ACC Champeenships, NIT titles, and
    Olympic gold, but it still looms over everything.  And you foolishly
    try to 'prove' that Dean is better than Knight by saying Dean's been to
    the final four *9* times (or 7) and Bob only *3* times (in reality,
    four) - but you fail to mention that Dean is, by your calculations ONE
    for Nine (1 - 9 ) and Bob is THREE for FOUR (3 - 4).  SO SOUP - which
    is better - getting to the dance and then gagging - you know, whiffing
    with the game on the line ala the Deanster, of strutting up to the
    plate and hitting the game-winning Dinger ala Bob.
    
    Keep up with the stats - the more you enter, the deeper the hole you
    dig.  Everytime you enter glowing tributes of his great NBA players and
    his success in the regular season and in early rounds, you make the ONE
    title (the Fred Brown pass title....against a YOUNG Georgetown team
    that the Heels should have *DESTROYED*) loom as the monument to Dean's
    failure to coach in the big one...
    
    JD
17.2747DUGROS::ROSSDeath, taxes, Carolina chokeTue Dec 31 1991 12:4816
    I guesss Chris has been too busy digging up facts to keep us up to date
    on the Tar Heels current road trip.   Seems the Heels are off on an 
    exhibition tour, and beat a team called Gran Canaria of the Canary
    Islands last week by a 112-61 score.   Dean really looks for some tough
    early season matchups huh?   Almost as bad as John Thompson, who will
    only schedule Sisters of the Poor Bible College if he can use BIG EAST
    refs.
    
    Here's an easy question for you, Chris -
    
    	Why doesn't Dean like to schedule tough competition early in the
    	season?   
    
    Here's a tougher one - 
    
    	What's Dean's road winning percentage versus ranked teams? 
17.2748All these years and we still don't have an accurate F-4 countGUSHER::WAUGAMANTue Dec 31 1991 12:5512
    
>  Name the NINE (9) times.   I count only SEVEN (7) ... 1967, 1968,
>  1972, 1977, 1981, 1982, and 1991.
   
    North Carolina also went to the Final Four in 1969, so I count eight.
    
    I'm content to label Smith "great" in the context of the *full*
    description of the occupation "college basketball coach", but this
    still does not preclude awarding the "choke-aholic" label likewise.
    
    glenn
     
17.2749"Dean Smith is a great coach." - Bob Hunt [nuf said]RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Dec 31 1991 13:2227
    re: Ross
    
    Carolina's European tour will not count against their won/loss record,
    so it's really a moot point whether they're playing good teams or bad
    ones.  My understand is it'll be a mixed bag - some teams should be
    quite good, others pretty weak.  The entire point of the trip is to
    allow Henrik Rodl the opportunity to play near his home - Germany in
    this case.  Dean affords all his players this opportunity and has done
    so for years.
    
    
    re: Clifford Rozier
    
    Ketch, it's a known fact that Rozier's leaving was far more the result
    of a rift between his mom and dad (who are going through an ugly
    divorce) than Cliffy getting on Dean's bad side cause he refused to
    play defense.  Seems his dad lives in Durham, and mom didn't take too
    kindly to him being so close, so she put the pressure on for him to
    skeedaddle.  So now Rozier will get to play three (3) more years and
    never learn to play defense, which means his ultimate career earnings
    potential will significantly drop.  Oh well.  [BTW, anybody see that
    class act kid from Louisville body-slam the Kaintucky point guard the
    other night.  Double technical was called, but boy did he get his
    money's worth.  Yup, Louisville's a class act all right ...  :^(]
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2750Speaking of great quotes ...SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeTue Dec 31 1991 13:575
"He loses the NCAA Tournament games by design." - Chris Knorr

More than 'nuf said.

Bob Hunt
17.2751FactsSCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeTue Dec 31 1991 14:1116
17.2752ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewTue Dec 31 1991 14:1515
    >Q:	   What about the NCAA Tournament.  How many's he won?
    >A:	   Forty-seven (47), which is more than any coach in history.
    
    By my count Snuffleupagus has won one (1) NCAA Tournament, which is
    the same as many coaches, some quite undistinguished.  But, to be
    fair, perhaps you've expanded the definition of "winning" to the point
    that it sates your compulsive delusionism.
    
    Oh, R U *ever* gonna belly-up to the bar and answer the various
    questions axed by me and Cap?  Or R U too skeert buddy.  If you *are*
    at least have the basic human decency to retract that fibology routine
    you ran down about how you've answered every question put forth to you
    about Snuffmeister.
    
    MrT
17.2753AXIS::ROBICHAUDAristotle,Socrates,Euclid,D.SmithTue Dec 31 1991 14:203
    fair, perhaps you've expanded the definition of "winning" to the point
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^          
	Kind of like what you did with the Donkeys MorT?
17.2754Logic 101 for brain-damaged Hairy SmithnaANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewTue Dec 31 1991 14:2312
    What the hail you squealing about now Rasher.  All I said about the
    Broncos was, and I quote, "these are classy winners!"  And they are.
    They have a winning record.  They won their division.  They, and here
    I invoke I must admit a hackneyed Knorrism, or Rochibaudism if you
    like, "they've made it to four (4) Super Bowls and making it to the
    Super Bowl makes for a winning season."
    
    Please note that I didn't dangle the "G" string there or anywhere 
    else in connection to the Broncos, who most assuredly are classy
    winners.
    
    MrT
17.2755AXIS::ROBICHAUDAristotle,Socrates,Euclid,D.SmithTue Dec 31 1991 14:275
    	MorT be consistent.  If Dean is a choker then so are the Donkeys.
    If the Donkeys are "winners" then so is Dean.  It's simple.  It's
    either one or the other.
    
    				/Don
17.2756Nobody chokes like the Snuffer ...SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeTue Dec 31 1991 14:3615
17.2757Gong!RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOSherman,Himmler,Sheridan,Goebels,CusterTue Dec 31 1991 14:387
    And /Don - the Soupster has stated you can't compare the college game
    with the pro game - and not only are you doing that, but you are
    comparing different sports.
    
    You go to the back of the line.
    
    JD
17.2758HPSRAD::RIEURead his Lips...Know new taxesTue Dec 31 1991 14:433
       According to T the Donks were gonna whup the 9ers and their 'sissy'
    football. Right Slash?
                                   Denny
17.2759AXIS::ROBICHAUDAristotle,Socrates,Euclid,D.SmithTue Dec 31 1991 14:4815
17.2760Rat on Denny!AXIS::ROBICHAUDAristotle,Socrates,Euclid,D.SmithTue Dec 31 1991 14:481
    
17.2761BSS::JCOTANCHSee ya in August, FaidersTue Dec 31 1991 15:054
    Denver was a 3-point favorite over Washington, but was a decided
    underdog in the other 3 Super Bowls.
    
    Joe
17.2762MrT skeered to come clean with admission of "choke"GUSHER::WAUGAMANTue Dec 31 1991 15:3420
    
>    Denver was a 3-point favorite over Washington, but was a decided
>    underdog in the other 3 Super Bowls.
     
    How big an underdog were the Broncos to the Giants?  Couldn't have
    been that much.  I thought they had a fair shot to win that game
    going in...
    
    The key point to my criticism of Dean Smith's tournament record 
    hasn't been that he was constantly losing as the favorite, because 
    that hasn't been the case.  The point is that given a large number 
    of opportunities you expect a certain number of successes, even
    if not a prohibitive favorite, and in this case that number is larger
    than what Dean Smith has delivered.  The same law of probabilities 
    holds for the Denver Broncos, the Minnesota Vikings, and the Boston 
    Red Sox.  If one is a choker, they all are, and certain parties should 
    be honest enough to acknowledge this fact.
    
    glenn
    
17.2763Way to go Waugamain!AXIS::ROBICHAUDRambo,Terminator,WaugamainTue Dec 31 1991 15:361
    
17.2764BSS::JCOTANCHSee ya in August, FaidersTue Dec 31 1991 15:4712
     
>    How big an underdog were the Broncos to the Giants?  Couldn't have
>    been that much.  I thought they had a fair shot to win that game
>    going in...
   
    I think Denver was a 9-point underdog to the Giants.  The 49ers were
    favored by something like 11 or 12 points.  I honestly don't remember
    what the spread was on SB XII, but I would guess Dallas was about a TD
    favorite.
    
    Joe 
     
17.2765Giants were 11 point favorites..donks big dogs...CNTROL::CHILDSBang!Bang! Let the Music go Bang!Tue Dec 31 1991 15:536
 UNC, the Donks, Vikes, and Soxs all chokers case closed...a few more near
 miss by coach K and we can add them to the list...only thing keep them off
 is they haven't lost to alot of dogs....

 for the record Donks were 6 1/2 point dogs to the boys and 14 to the niners...
17.2766there's no need for argument in this comparisonANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewTue Dec 31 1991 16:4020
    Gentlemen... gentlemen... GENTLEMEN !!
    
    Please, let's cheel out here, ok?  Setting aside Tambourine Main's
    misquotes a poor MrT, I'd have to agree with him...
    
    The Broncos *are* chokes.  So what?  They're classy winners too.  They
    have attained Excellence, but certainly have never donned the "G" string.
    
    However, certainly Reeves' record isn't nearly as egregiously sad-sack
    as Snuffy's.  Think a it: He ain't coached no three decades.  He don't
    have the advantage a dominant recruiting, he must draft and then at a 
    disadvantage after a winning season.  As opposed to 4 trips in several
    years Snuffy has had 8 or 9 in 30, so he steal has time to pick up that
    Fred Brown gimme. 
    
    Yes, the Broncos are classy winners.  That much is true.  Yes, the Broncos
    to some degree are gag-artists too (albeit certainly not on the gargantuan
    scale achieved by the Carolina Blew Heels).  That much is true too.
    
    MrT
17.2767I will admit we need Lynch almost as much as IU needs CheaneyRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Dec 31 1991 17:0127
    re: Lynch
    
    Boy are you confused here Ketch, but since you're obviously making a
    dig at me in regards to the Calbert Cheaney fiasco, let me refresh
    everyone's memory as to what really happened:
    
    1. Cheaney was not benched for poor play but cause he was in foul
       trouble.  ESPN blew it big-time by failing to report this to us
       ignornant viewers.
    
    2. ACC Chris [me] was proven correct in stating that Cheaney was not
       playing badly and shouldn't have been benched.  (Obviously I had
       no idea he was in foul trouble - I don't keep a running tally while
       watching a game I could essentially care less about.)
    
    3. MrT was proven embarssingly wrong in stating that Cheaney was
       playing REELY bad and therefore deserved his benching, since he
       wasn't benched for poor play at all!  Haw!!
    
    Now back to Lynch.  George logged 33 minutes against Florida State and
    34 against Jacksonville.  He fouled out of the FSU game.  I don't doubt
    that he didn't play well, but if you're trying to draw a comparison
    between a_near entire 2nd half benching (which actually never happened)
    and the 2 or 3 minutes that George sat, I think you're reaching.  ALOT.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2768CSCOA1::ROLLINS_RTue Dec 31 1991 17:1114
>    The Broncos *are* chokes.  So what?  They're classy winners too.  They
>    have attained Excellence, but certainly have never donned the "G" string.
    
     The fact that the Donks have won the AFL/AFC four times in 31 years
     does not equate to excellence, any more than Idaho's occassional title
     in the Big Sky Conference does not make them an excellent program.

     Put them in with the big boys of the NFC and the Donks would be 0-31 in
     even getting to the championship.

     The Donks have a fairly good history over the last few years, but no
     where near excellent.  I guess if you consider "Great" to be better than
     "Excellent" (I'm not sure you could conclude that from the dictionary),
     than the Donks are not even within viewing distance of excellence.
17.2769He even narks on himself!SHALOT::MEDVIDKooler than JesusTue Dec 31 1991 17:1920
>    1. Cheaney was not benched for poor play but cause he was in foul
>       trouble.  ESPN blew it big-time by failing to report this to us
>       ignornant viewers.
    
    ESPN blew it?  Who, Chris?  
    
    What you are admitting to here, Chris, is that you really weren't
    paying attention to the game.  If I watch a game, I don't depend on the
    announcers to tell me what's going on all the time.  And I certainly
    watch intently enough to know when a star like Cheaney commits that
    third or fourth foul.  
    
    Yet, even though your mind was elsewhere (perhaps remembering a crisp
    March night in Charlotte with our favorite blond wrapped around you)
    you chose to log on the very next day and type NOTE even before you got
    a $ prompt and fire away igKnorrantly at Bob Knight.
    
    Hmmmmmmmm.
    
    	--dan'l
17.2770If it was so obvious how come nobody else noticed?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Dec 31 1991 17:329
    If I'm guilty of not paying close attention to the foul situation in
    the IU/UCLA game then so are *lots* of other people, including MorT and
    Cap.  I'll say it again: ESPN *blew* it.  They failed to identify to
    the viewer the fact that Cheaney had four (4) fouls.  The resulting
    embarassment to poor MrT is significant - so much so that I'm kinda
    surprised he doesn't send em a letter.  Haw!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2771RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOSherman,Himmler,Sheridan,Goebels,CusterThu Jan 02 1992 11:594
    Once again, Ol Mr. Knoor decides to blam the media instead of taking
    responsibility hisself...
    
    JD
17.2772HPSRAD::RIEURead his Lips...Know new taxesThu Jan 02 1992 12:024
       Your right JD. Chris knows he caint depend on the media for
    anything, yet he does just that while watching the love a his life
    (college hoops). You figure it out! 
                                      Denny
17.2773don't see evil connotationsCTHQ3::LEARYbusted flat in baton rougeThu Jan 02 1992 12:486
    JD,
    I know this ain't sports-related, but I'm a Civil War fan, and I find
    you P-Name implications a bit extreme. Care to explain?
    
    MikeL
    
17.2774My first official Snuff Bash of 1992SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeThu Jan 02 1992 13:5949
17.2775Jones should and will stay. Massimino I'm not so sure about ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jan 02 1992 14:0719
    Point noted, Ketch.  I agree that Jones needs more time - certainly not
    calling for his scalp.  (Massimino is an entirely different issue,
    since he's been around much longer.)
    
    My point was simply that he's struggling.  REALLY struggling.  Not
    saying he won't turn things around, but for such a young coach his
    confidence level must be really low, and that will, of course, transfer
    to his players.
    
    BTW, in regards to Massimino, note that I've included first-hand
    evidence to document my case.  I'm telling ya his bench is utter
    mayhem.  Coaches yelling.  Coaches screaming.  It's caos over there.
    Also makes me think-back to when the Nova PG came public with all those
    allegations about Massimino and the press was all over him for being
    such a cry-baby, etc.  Maybe the kid was right about Rollie.  (A novel
    though, eh?)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2776he's doing it againANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewThu Jan 02 1992 14:0819
    Who is ACCrisp to lambast the media?  After all, it is they who've
    enhanced his dominant recruiting for so many years with the uncritical
    myth-building job they've devlivered his way.  If you wanna see a
    program damaged by biased media reportage, look to Bloomington.
    
    Also, CrispyCritter is, to put it politely, "mixed-up" again.  He
    claims that I was "proved wrong" by Tom Simpson's revelation that 
    Calbert was in foul trouble.  Really?  Then what about all those
    replays showing UCLAns blowing by a frozen Calbert (and Nover) for
    all those slam-jams.  What about the announcers' commentary of same.
    Most a all, what about Calbert's own self-criticism and concurrence
    that he deserved to be benched for his poor floor game play.
    
    Instead of inventing Reality, Crocker, why don't you take this spare
    time and invest it in FINALLY answering the two batch of fact-based
    sports-related questions outstanding from Cap for so long.  Why not
    finally answer *MY* question in connection with the FSU loss.  Why.
    
    MrT
17.2777Mixed Reports make commentary difficult at best.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jan 02 1992 14:107
    How can Cheaney say he deserved to be benched when BobKnight himself
    sez it was cause of foul trouble?
    
    Color me confused,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2778ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewThu Jan 02 1992 14:365
    >Color me confused.
    
    And make the coloration all runny and lurid-like while you're at it.
    
    
17.2779RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOSherman,Himmler,Sheridan,Goebels,CusterThu Jan 02 1992 15:059
    MikeL -
    
    
    Has nothing to do  with there Civil War exploits.  It concerns there
    genocidal tendencies to the American Indian following the war.  They
    were both butchers, especially Sheridan - but he wasn't along, folks
    like Custer helped a whole bunch.
    
    JD
17.2780HPSRAD::RIEURead his Lips...Know new taxesThu Jan 02 1992 15:213
       I thought he was talking about Danny Sheridan, the guy who makes
    football picks.
                                       Denny
17.2781GUSHER::WAUGAMANThu Jan 02 1992 15:327
    
    Gee, is it possible that a player could be having a terrible night
    and deserve to be benched *and* be in foul trouble all in the same 
    game?  Who woulda thunk that these two could go hand-in-hand?
    
    glenn
    
17.2782Can love overcome a Weasel dating a Tarheel?SHALOT::MEDVIDKooler than JesusThu Jan 02 1992 15:4832
    Rung in the new year with a new flame of mine.  Well actually it's
    still a flicker because she's got this annoying problem known as a
    "boyfriend in Chapel Hill."
    
    That's right, I said Chapel Hill.  Anje is finishing up her masters at
    UNC this semester.  She and her girlfriend Kressy (hey, I didn't name
    'em) came down to Charlotte to spend New Year's Eve with me.  Anje and
    I have discovered two fundamental differences that we've agreed
    shouldn't get in the way of exploring the relationship potential:
    
    	1. She likes big breakfasts, I don't.
    	2. She likes Dean Smith, I don't.
    
    So Anje, Kressy, and I are sitting at brunch yesterday working on
    getting rid of our hangovers when I decide to get in a little jab. 
    "So, Anj," I said, "what happened against Florida State?"
    
    Anje, not a true Tarhole just a passive score watcher, just smiled and
    said she hadn't been paying attention to the games lately.  That's when
    I explained to Kressy about the two fundamental differences Anje and I
    had.
    
    Well, when I said I didn't like Dean you should have seen the look on
    her face.  It was like somebody ran over her dog...twice!  I thought
    she was gonna cry!
    
    Then she starts in with all the pat phrases..."he's the greatest...he's
    put more players in the pros...etc."  My hangover kept me from really
    getting into it with her, but I'll never forget that priceless face
    when she actually realized that anit-Deans existed.
    
    	--dan'l
17.2783Marry that girl, dan'l - and *quick*! RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jan 02 1992 16:461
    
17.2784HPSRAD::RIEURead his Lips...Know new taxesThu Jan 02 1992 17:003
    ...Chris is right! Do it before it's too late. She can probably still
    be saved!
                                          Denny
17.2785ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewThu Jan 02 1992 17:3540
    Medvid's doing a Chapel Helll gal?  I thought you went for the brainy
    gals, Dan'l.  
    
    Color me disappointed (and disgusted).
    
    re: Waugamain
    
    Don't you know, Waugamain, that players tend to get into foul trouble
    when they're playing well.  HAa.
    
    re: NatAm talk
    
    Hey JD, if you thought Sherman wuz bad you oughta git a load a General
    "Mad Dog" Wayne, for whom the Indiana city Ft. Wayne (home a Vaughn
    Dunbar) is named.  Indiana is so named cuz it sat astride the portage
    between the St. Lawrence and Mississippi watersheds.  Very important
    as far as fur trading and the like was concerened way back when.  For
    that reason the area became the locus of many different Indian Nations,
    and was heavily populated with Natives.  When the French moved in they,
    as always, did biz and were cool with the Natives.  Then the Brits came
    in and there was some nasty fighting.  Then, after the Revolution, the
    early Hoosiers axed the feds to send in the cavalry to move out the
    glut of Natives who didn't fit the business model.
    
    Enter Mad Dog.  He showed up with a huge contingent of infrantry and
    cavalry and artillery.  He took his army and marched north to south,
    south to north, each pass moving west one increment until he was
    finished.
    
    Each pass was an operation in total slaughter.  They slaughtered the
    warriors, the teens, the elders, the wives, the children... the
    infants.  Unlike other states where there was forced deportation, at
    the time Indiana was de-Indianized the westward states were taking no
    more displaced nations.  So they simply slaughtered them.
    
    If you ever go to Ft. Wayne be sure to hocker into the face of Mad
    Dog's statue and urinate on his medals.  I did.
    
    MrT
    
17.2786RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOSherman,Himmler,Sheridan,Goebels,CusterThu Jan 02 1992 17:5410
    MrT -
    
    I've heard of some of Wayne's 'heroic' deeds.
    
    There's always the infamous Gov. Chivington of Colorado, who did
    everything in his power to make sure that the Indians were destroyed in
    the Colorado territory.  His destruction of the Utes was another move
    that woulda made Pol Pot happy.
    
    JD
17.2787DUGROS::ROSSDeath, taxes, Carolina chokeFri Jan 03 1992 09:1433
    Tar Heels beat up on Purdue last night... Purdue has turned into an
    embarrassing team.  No skilled big men {remember when MrT was touting
    Purdue center Craig Riley as the next Steve Scheffler, haw haw}...
    Soph guard Travis Trice has regressed... no offense whatsoever.  The
    only playerwho looks like he has some talent is frosh guard Waddell.
    
    Now for the Heels.  They looked terrible early.   Dean Smith was up off
    the bench every 10 seconds begging for calls {his nasal, high-pitched
    yelling was very annoying} and even came out on the court a few steps
    to protest a charge call.   I never realized what a whiner he was.
    
    The announcers were so pro-Carolina, it was sickening.   They gushed
    about Eric Montross's skills for about a minute straight in the first
    half and then up popped Eric stats - 2 points 3 rebounds {all of the 
    "looked what fell in my hands" variety.  One of the announcers  also
    started the spin control on Eric's skills by saying that "several
    coaches have told me that Eric was not as good as they thought he was 
    supposed to be coming out of college"  Ha!  They're just prepping us
    for the "Look how Dean molded this unskilled project into a journeyman
    center".  
    
    George Lynch can play on my team anytime. And Hubert Davis, too.   I
    think the Heels will really be in trouble when they face a good team.  
    Notice that their big win over Seton Hall doesn't look so big now after
    the Hall got upset last night by {Pitt?}.
    The guards are good defenders, but besides Davis, there's little
    offensive ability.   Phelps is a lefty who cannot shoot with his right
    hand.   He drove several times to the basket from the right side and
    put it up left-handed.   That will be stopped against a team with good
    guards.
    
    The Sweet Sixteen streak ends this year.   Take it to the bank.
    
17.2788DYPSS1::ROPERBRAVO PITINO!Fri Jan 03 1992 10:167
    Watch out for Purdue next year.  They certainly will not lack for a
    skilled big man.  Rember this name.  GLEN ROBINSON.  He's Prop 48 this
    year.  Robinson was the second best big man in high school last year
    behind Chris Webber of Michigan.  Robinson destroyed Alan Henderson of
    Indiana in head-to-head competition last year.  The kid can play.
    
    WILDCAT
17.2789CTHQ2::LEARYbusted flat in baton rougeFri Jan 03 1992 11:046
    JD,
    Thanks for the clarification. I knew of Sheridan's behavior with
    Original Americans but not Sherman's.
    
    MikeL
    
17.2790Analysis of Purdue vs. UNC (corrected from DRoss version...)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Jan 03 1992 11:0946
    Gee, thanks for that thorough Objective Analysis Mr. Ross.
    
    
    
    NOT!
    
    > The Heels played terrible early.
    
    Compared to how we've typically come out of the gate this year I
    actually thought we started fairly well.  The defense was very
    aggressive early, although Purdue seems to really be struggling to find
    somebody who can score.  Credit Hubert Davis for shutting down Woody 
    Stephens, who usually puts up some numbers.  (Remember the job Davis 
    did on Terry Dehere against SHU?  Kid can play defense at the 2G 
    position, at least at the college level.)
    
    
    > Never realized how much of a whiner Dean Smith is ...
    
    Haw haw!!!  In a game that featured shot-after-shot of Gene Keady
    whining, crying, and pouting, you point out Dean's whining!  Haw haw!!!
    Dean works the officials just like any other coach.  Big Deal.  
    
    As to Carolina's play:
    
    o Ross is correct in singling out Davis and Lynch last night.  They
      were both very good on both ends.
    
    o Montross was, is, and perhaps always will be overhyped, just like
      any man with some talent who's 7'0" and *BIG*.  You can't always
      evaluate how well a kid plays purely on his numbers.  Last night
      I thought he made a real impact defensively.  Literally took away
      Purdue's entire inside game.  They got *zilch* inside the paint.
    
    o Derrick Phelps is good but turns the ball over too much.  He also
      can't shoot, which isn't good but a good shooting PG is a luxury
      as opposed to a necessity.  Hopefully he'll improve.  The backup
      PG woes that I was so worried about appear somewhat settled, with
      Henrik Rodl doing a passable job, and Donald Williams at least able
      to bounce the ball upcourt.  (He gets blown by on 'D' though, and
      his outside shot seems very flat for such a supposedly good shooter.)
    
    o Brian Reese did some nice things.  Pat Sullivan scares me.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2791They'll probably need nine (9) conference wins to make NCAA's ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Jan 03 1992 11:1612
    Duke beat Virginia last night to drop the Cavs to 4 - 5.  At this point
    I'd have to rate the Cavaliers chances of making the NCAA Tournament as
    a long shot.  Dan Bonner (a Virginia main) didn't even list them in his
    Top 6 in the ACC race this season, putting them even behind Florida
    State and Maryland.
    
    Still a long way to go put this is a team that, ever since their
    nightmarish road trip thru North Carolina last year, seems to have
    forgotten how to win.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2792Duke's been blowing people awaySHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetFri Jan 03 1992 11:5112
 Such doom and gloom following a six-point Wahoo loss to the No. 1 ranked
 team in the country ???  
 
 Far be it from me to claim any kind of an "excellent loss" outta this loss
 to Duke but methinks this game had just a bit more of that "Oooh, almost
 pulled it off ..." flavor to it.
 
 I won't dispute your prediction that the Hoos will need an above average
 conference record to qualify for post-season follies.  Fortunately,
 there's still a lot of basketball to be played.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2793CAMONE::WAYHigh-toned son of a bitchFri Jan 03 1992 11:547
And there's nothing to say that the 'hoos won't get hot, have a bitchin'
ACC tournament, win the whole enchilada and go to the Big Dance...

Right Bob?


;^)
17.2795Results from tomorrow's UVa @ FSU game should say alotRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Jan 03 1992 12:047
    True Ketch, you *could* look at the 'L' to Duke as_a Excellent Loss.  On
    the other hand UVa typically beats Duke at home, and this could be one
    more straw added to the already broken camels back known as
    'Confidence'.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2796Coach Ross info needed.FDCV07::GARBARINOFri Jan 03 1992 16:495
I know this is a hoops note, but can one of you ACC guys tell me what
Coach Ross (Geo Tech) likes to do offensively ?  Does he like to run
the ball or throw it ?  Does he "air-it-out", or "dump-off" ?

Any help will be appreciated.
17.2797a start?HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Jan 03 1992 17:0212
Not an expert on the subject but Ross seems to adapt his style to the
talent he has. While at Maryland, he had the big, strong-armed QB and
offensively profiled this. At Georgia Tech, he had a good option QB with
good runners so he went that way.

As to what he might do at San Diego, I'd say it would be pretty much up
to what they have. I'd look for them to draft or trade for some kinda
decent QB.

Defensively, he's always seemed to get a lot out of his players.

TTom
17.2798Bet he took the Pokes and the Falcons, too ...SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeMon Jan 06 1992 12:3927
Ouch, a bad, badder, baddest weekend for Soup-Analysis (tm).   Here's what 
happened ...

1) Villanova beat #23 Georgetown in Landover proving, once again, that 
   Rollie Massimino is a *much* better coach than Snuff's chum, ol' Bronze 
   Medal John Thompson.

2) Virginia beat Florida State in overtime in Tallahassee proving that, at 
   the very least, Jeff Jones found a way to do something the Snuffer 
   hasn't done yet.   Not to mention that the game was on the road and the 
   'Noles had all their best players available.   [Psst, hey fellas, guess 
   who's still last in the ACC ???]

3) Larry Johnson was named the NBA's Coca-Cola Classic Rookie Of The Month 
   for December.   Johnson's numbers for the season now stand at slightly 
   over 17 points per game and over 11 boards per game.   He is the first 
   such Hornet that I can recall to receive this honor.  Certainly his 
   predecessor at power forward never picked up this particular piece of 
   hardware.

   Oh, and Larry Bird had some nice things to say about Larry Johnson.  
   Said he hasn't seen anyone yet this year who gets inside position better 
   than our LJ.

Whiff, whiff, whiff ...  Grab some pine, bub.

Bob Hunt  
17.2799ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewMon Jan 06 1992 12:528
    >1. What team has won the most ACC Championships?
    
    Is this one a them heavy philosophical questions?  Reason I axe
    is cuz the Almost Close Conference doesn't quite *have* a Championship.
    Least according to CoachK, who sez he cain't figure out what the conf.
    championship program is, in reality, that is.
    
    MrT
17.2800RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOThe Muddy Mudskipper SHowMon Jan 06 1992 13:2525
    
    And we know how, for some reason, the Soupster has decided to go on a
    Rollie Massimino bashing expedition this hoops season (along with his
    Calvin Cheaney Crusade).
    
    Did some research.  Rollie has coached 569 games as head coach at
    Villanova.  He, of course, has won ONE NCAA Champeenship.  
    
    Dean Smith has coached 926 games at UNC (All totals do not include this
    season), and of course, has won ONCE NCAA CHampeenship.
    
    Just to chew the fat, John Thompson has coached 557 games at
    Georgetown, with of course, ONE NCAA Champeenship.
    
    Bobby Knight has coached 612 games at Indiana.  He's got Three NCAA
    CHampeenships under his belt.
    
    I can see clearly now why the Soupster claims Rollie is overrated.  
    His winning percentage is lower then the other three.  That must be it.
    Lets hope Rollie doesn't win another CHampeenship - he'd be way
    overrated then.
    
    (FWIW, Coach K has coached 371 games at Duke with ONE champeenship...)
    
    JD
17.2801Carolina advances to 9-1 with sloppy "W" over Colorado ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jan 06 1992 13:4931
    re: .-1
    
    Using your metrics, JD, Steve Fisher must be the greatest coach in the
    history of college basketball.  Weak, bub.  Very, vewy, weak. 
    (1-dimensional too and, a_course, intellectually bankrupt.)
    
    
    re: Virginia
    
    I eat no crow regarding the Cavs "W" against FSU.  The fact that
    they've been struggling mightily since last years "North Carolina
    Nightmare" (brought on by their own greedy scheduling) is obvious.
    The Title to my note awhile back sez to watch closely what happens
    against Florida State.  And just what *did* happen?  They needed a Cory
    Alexander FG with :10 seconds left to force OT.  Without that shot they
    go to 4-6!  Give em credit for hanging tough though.  This just might
    mark the beginning of a turnaround of sorts ...
    
    
    re: Massamino
    
    Ah yes, time to start rewarding underachievement.  Villanova has been
    losing to teams they've got no biz losing to, Massamino pulls one
    upset, and everybody hails him as a great coach.  Call it the Digger
    Phelps syndrome, and if Rollie doesn't turn things around soon ("turn
    things around" means more than an occasional upset win.  For starters
    it means at least having a .500 record ...) he just might join the
    Digsters on the Banquet Circuit.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2802Soup eats no crow ... yet sees the Hoos turning a corner ... Unreal.SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeMon Jan 06 1992 14:3528
17.2803You got something against Objective Analysis?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jan 06 1992 15:1012
    re: .-1
    
    What's your point?  The Cavs have been struggling for awhile.  Jones is
    in the midst of a horrible stretch for such a young coach.  They're
    having an awful season.  They come up with a big win against FSU thanks
    to some clutch play by a rookie which *might* turn things around.
    
    All facts, all reported by yours truly.  I don't understand your
    beef...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2804Where's The Beef?ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJohnMon Jan 06 1992 15:4812
    Wail, maybe you cain understand *my* beef:
    
    Are you EVER gonna answer the 3 batches a questions from me and
    Cap steel outstanding after several weeks?  Understood, we're
    sensitive to the fack that these questions put you in a less than
    ideal position as a_"objective analyst" but answering is your duty.
    
    Either answer the damned questions or admit you're skeert.  And don't
    sling no bull about how you "have answered all questions put forth 
    about Dean" cuz that just ain't true.
    
    MrT
17.2805Are you backpedallin' or spinnin', I cain't tell !!!SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeMon Jan 06 1992 15:5422
I have nothing against Objective Analysis, mon ami.   I suggest you try it 
someday.   You might it intellectually refreshing.

You have three heaping helpings of well done crow to munch down.   

Jeff Jones and Rollie Massimino both won tough conference road games and 
Larry Johnson is the most recent bestest rookie in the NBA.  Each of these 
*FACTS* is contrary to your latest belches of analytical gas.

I politely suggest you strap on a bib and commence your meal.
 
Remember lasted year when I suggested that Bobby Hurley was hurting Duke on 
the road ???   I swallowed that crow in a most manful fashion as the young 
lad hitched up his britches and played the heck outta the rest of his 
team's champeenship season.     Of course, he did shoot 2-for-11 in lasted 
week's close win over the Hoos in C'ville but, what the hey, the Dookies 
won the game and that's the important measure.   

Time now for you to admit the errors (note: *plural*) of your ways and 
proceed to some well deserved crow crunchin'...

Bob Hunt 
17.2806RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOThe Muddy Mudskipper SHowMon Jan 06 1992 15:5510
    Nice try Soup.  If Rollie is so damn overrated (according to your
    view), they why isn't the Deanster?  Rollie is even in Champeenships -
    and at least in his champeenship he OVERACHIEVED, unlike the Deanster,
    who has choked numerous times.  
    
    Overrated?  Try looking at the TarHells (tm) bench - the guy in the
    suit coat with the big nose and the albatross around his neck.  That's
    the real overrated coach.
    
    JD
17.2807RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Mon Jan 06 1992 16:117
    
    	Maryland lost to Ga.Tech lasted night...it was close till the
    twerps went into a zone...then Tech blasted them from the outside.
    
    score-  92-67
    
    B.A.
17.2808ACC Chris sees forest (Macro); BobHunt only trees (Micro)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jan 06 1992 17:0218
    I'll eat crow when necessary, but now is clearly not the time.  If
    you'd look at the Macro picture here you'd still find that:
    
    1. Villanova has a losing record
    2. Larry Johnson is darn good but Mutombo woulda been the better pick
    3. Even with the FSU "W" Virginia's season thus far cain only be
       described as a Titanic-style disaster.
    
    
    re: JD
    
    If you're gonna continue with this line of intellectual dishonest then
    you simply MUST explain to us all how Steve Fisher is one of the
    greatest coaches in the history of NCAA college basketball, given his
    phenomenal record of Title production.  Until then, go_way.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2809RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOThe Muddy Mudskipper SHowMon Jan 06 1992 17:1611
    Chris -
    
    I never said Fisher was a great coach. Never mentioned him.
    
    In fact - I never mentioned that *ANY* of the coaches were great
    coaches.   Simply entered some numbers, showing that these guys all
    have titles, just like your idol, but did it in less games.
    
    So go way Chris.  ANd take a reading comp. class sometime.
    
    JD
17.2810CAMONE::WAYHigh-toned son of a bitchMon Jan 06 1992 17:1916
Chris, I never realized you were a Macro hacker!  Welcome to the club.

Here's my impression of your Dean praise:


	10$:	BRB	10$





Hope this helps!



'Saw
17.2811I'd be very interested in Rollie graduation record, BTW.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jan 06 1992 17:2214
    Not_so_fast JD.  Didn't you just compare Massimino with Dean, citing
    Titles as the *only* metric?  [yes]  Now aren't you running away from
    that extraordinarily_narrow criterion as fast as your admittedly fast
    legs will carry you?  [yes]
    
    Why not cut your losses and come clean with the fact that Titles are
    only one (1) criteria that should be used when evaluating a coaches
    success.  Heck, even MrT acknowledges this obvious fact.  (Once you've
    come clean it wouldn't hurt to apologize to us all about how you
    were wrong to offer up such a meaningless and dishonest comparison
    earlier today ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2812RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOThe Muddy Mudskipper SHowMon Jan 06 1992 17:2618
    
    Chris -
    
    Yep, I compared them in titles.  But that's it.  You've been ranting
    and raving about how overrated he is - and I counted that if anyone is
    overrated, its the Deanster.  Squandered talent and all that.
    
    I thought 'Novas grad rate was pretty good.  Probably not as good as
    Deans, but not down with the UNLV's of the world.  
    
    Titles should be a big criteria - especially when it comes to
    idolization and greatness labels.   Good coaches produce winners on and
    off the court.  Great ones do it while producing champeens.  That's why
    Dean is good, but Bob is Great.
    
    HTH
    
    JD
17.2813Just gittin the facks straight.CAMONE::WAYHigh-toned son of a bitchMon Jan 06 1992 18:0322
>    Not_so_fast JD.  Didn't you just compare Massimino with Dean, citing
>    Titles as the *only* metric?  [yes]  Now aren't you running away from
>    that extraordinarily_narrow criterion as fast as your admittedly fast
>    legs will carry you?  [yes]
    
Chris, you're REALLY stretching this.  It wasn't the only comparison
he made....


But the most important comparison he made was the best one:

	Dean got his title by being the beneficiary of an errant
	Fred Brown pass, while possessing a team of AWESOME talent.

	Rollie overachieved in a wonderfully inspired upset.


	And, were it not for Fred Brown's miscue, Dean would have
	a big old GooseEgg and John Thompson would have TWO...


'Saw
17.2814ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJohnMon Jan 06 1992 18:1311
    Hey Crock-'o-Holic, maybe you missed my earlier query:
    
    
    you EVER gonna answer the three batches a sports-related fact-
    based tough questions "set forth" by Cap and me or R U too damned
    chicken?  
    
    Either answer all the questions or shut your big fat mouf' and
    sit back and RON and maybe you'll learn something buddy.
    
    MrT
17.2815Shadup MorT, I'm working on it ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jan 06 1992 18:2415
    re: 1Way
    
    Most consider the '82 Georgetown vs. UNC Title game one of the 2 or 3
    greatest games in Title History.  Carolina had some great players, but
    remember Jordan was only a frosh and Georgetown wasn't exactly
    talentless either.  (Sleepy Floyd & Patrick Ewing for starters ...)
    
    Lastly I always laugh when folks say Freddie Brown gave Carolina a
    Title, assuming that in a game dominated by defense (final score was
    in the 60's) Georgetown was gonna score and win the game.  I'd say
    the odds were against them, even with Worthy as out of position as he
    would've been.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2816Rollie Ruled In 1985SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeMon Jan 06 1992 18:2625
17.2817NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Jan 06 1992 18:3416
    
    > Lastly I always laugh when folks say Freddie Brown gave Carolina a
    > Title, assuming that in a game dominated by defense (final score was
    > in the 60's) Georgetown was gonna score and win the game.  I'd say
    > the odds were against them, even with Worthy as out of position as he
    > would've been.  
    
    An excellent point, one of the few that have been made from the
    pro-Carolina side in the debate over Smith's paucity of titles. 
    Michael Jordan had just hit the clutch jumper, Carolina had the lead,
    Freddie Brown of the Hoyas chokes but it's somehow the Heels who have
    to live down the sequence of events.  Never made sense to me...
    
    glenn
     
                    
17.2818DYPSS1::ROPERBRAVO PITINO!Mon Jan 06 1992 18:4111
    I'd forgotten the exact sequence of events for that Title Game.  I'll
    have to agree with glenn though.  Carolina was up and the Hoya's still
    had to score turnover or not.  I certainly wouldn't call it a choke on
    the Hoya's part.  Turnovers are part of the game whether at the very
    beginning of the game or at the end.  Fact is, UNC beat Georgetown fair
    and square that year.
    
    The fact that 'Carolina had a chance to win the game at the end is a
    credit to them.
    
    WILDCAT
17.2819'82 was a gift, pure and simpleSCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeMon Jan 06 1992 18:5022
No member of the Anti-Snuff League has ever denied that 1982 Georgetown 
still needed a bucket to win the game (or a free throw to tie it).   We've 
never once tried to cover up this *fact*. 

Fact is that Georgetown had at least 17 seconds (the time left when Jordan 
hit his jumper for the ages) to score.   Plenty of time.   Brown's bad pass 
came with just under 10 seconds to go.   As it was, James Worthy missed 
both his ensuing free throws but the Hoyas couldn't get the ball back up 
court fast enough for another shot.

Brown's pass killed the Hoyas and gave Snuffy an incredible gift.   If the 
Hoyas had somehow managed to get a shot away and missed it or if perhaps 
the Heels had done something on defense (besides James Worthy being out of 
position) to deny the shot cleanly, then we wouldn't even be talking about 
that game and Snuff would have his one *clean* title.

As it is, he has a gift title.   Mark my words, I guarantee if the Heels 
ever do win another title in our lifetimes and they do it sans gift, you'll 
hear the Baby Blue Faithful themselves giving Dean the credit for silencing 
their own doubts about the Look-What-I-Found Ring Of '82.

Bob Hunt 
17.2820CAMONE::WAYHigh-toned son of a bitchMon Jan 06 1992 19:1423
>That should be "upsetS" ...plural.   Rollie's 1985 'Cats had a most 


They were also playing for that old dude in the Wheelchair.  Pops or
whatever his name was.

I remember seeing that on some sports show.  Much as the Lions are playing
inspired ball because of Mike Utley, the 'Cats were playing for him.



As to UNC winning fair and square, yes, they won, and no, they didn't
cheat.  But they won on a gift.  Sure, it's entirely possible that
Georgetown doesn't score in the ensuing 9 seconds, if Brown doesn't
pass it away.

BUT, it's also entirely possible that Snuffer forgets how much time
there is and gets a T, giving the Hoyas a charity shot...

Ya never know, and Snuffer will never know either...


'Saw
17.2821We antis must take care to keep our standards rock-solid...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Jan 06 1992 19:2338
    
> Brown's pass killed the Hoyas and gave Snuffy an incredible gift.   If the 
> Hoyas had somehow managed to get a shot away and missed it or if perhaps 
> the Heels had done something on defense (besides James Worthy being out of 
> position) to deny the shot cleanly, then we wouldn't even be talking about 
> that game and Snuff would have his one *clean* title.
    
    Maybe if Brown hadn't thrown the ball away, North Carolina would have
    lost.  So what?  It's sheer speculation.  The debate here is about 
    *coaching*.  Unless Dean Smith was prepared to jump off the bench onto
    the court screaming "how much time?" and draw a technical, what would
    have happened in those final seconds is irrelevant to the debate over
    Smith's coaching skills.  As Chris says, Smith's team was in the lead
    against a fine Hoya squad in the final seconds of the game.  It was
    time for the players to play, for them to determine the winner of a
    well-coached contest.  If Smith had done a fine job of coaching till 
    that point, how would that have changed pending the result of one 
    pivotal play?
    
    By unobjectively creating scenarios to deny Smith even that sole title, 
    if anything you give strength to Chris' argument that luck is the major
    determinant in Smith's repeated failure by harping on the point that
    the one title obtained was itself "lucky"!  If we use this floating 
    standard elsewhere then we can also alter the results of other games
    and tournaments, either in favor or against depending on our predilection,
    and then we don't get anywhere.  
    
    Let's abandon *all* speculation uniformly so that no one is allowed to
    squirm (injuries, blah, blah, blah), stick with the facts and then work 
    with them: Smith coached his team into position to win it all in 1981 
    and they did so.  Period.  He didn't every other year of his career.  
    That makes it one for 31 overall, one for eight Final Fours behind the 
    bench of some very talented squads, incredibly poor production against 
    very large odds for doing so!  See how easy and clean that was!  
    Absolutely no mess!
    
    glenn
     
17.2822RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOThe Muddy Mudskipper SHowMon Jan 06 1992 19:426
    Remember - that Hoya squad was young.  that was Ewings FROSH year. 
    Same for Wingate and Williams, too, I believe.  
    
    TarHells were favored, no?  
    
    JD
17.2823If only everyone believed youSHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetMon Jan 06 1992 19:4628
17.2824Floyd was a seniorSHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetMon Jan 06 1992 19:508
17.2825CAMONE::WAYHigh-toned son of a bitchTue Jan 07 1992 09:1414
17.2826I'll be surprised if all Weasels buy into this ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jan 07 1992 11:1810
    re: glenn
    
    Wow - nice Intellectual work.  Could this be the beginning of a major
    philosophical split within the Weasels?  I equate glenn's brilliant
    essay to the thesis Martin Luther nailed to that church door back in
    the 1600's.  Christianity ain't been the same since, and I suspect the
    Weasels won't either!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2827He was speaking mostly in your direction ...SCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeTue Jan 07 1992 11:593
Question is ... Will *you* buy into it ???

Bob Hunt
17.2828glenn - CURRENT LEADER FOR 1992 NOTY!DYPSS1::ROPERBRAVO PITINO!Tue Jan 07 1992 12:0525
    re : glenn
    
    Great note glenn!  As all of you know, I'm certainly no lover of UNC
    basketball.  I live and die with the 'Cats.  However, I will give
    credit where credit is due.  UNC deserved their lone championship. 
    Turnovers are part of the game whether they happen at the very
    beginning, middle, or end.  UNC put themselves in a position to win,
    and they did it.  
    
    If you wanna talk gifts, let's talk the 1987 Indiana Hoosiers.  First
    of all, LSU blew their game to give IU a chance to get to the finals. 
    Second, Syracuse *GAVE* them the championship.  If *frosh* Derrick
    Coleman hits his 'throws, GAME OVER!  No chance for a Keith Smart
    *MIRACLE SHOT*!!!  As Chris has stated, there are many more examples
    for us to choose from.
    
    As glenn also said we can't ignore UNC's apparent failures.  Smith
    seems to have not gotten the most out of some very talented squads.  To
    give Smith the benefit of the doubt however, sometimes it's very hard
    to mold a cohesive unit out of a superstar laden team.  You need role
    players.  Perhaps it wasn't his coaching, but poor team play by his
    star studded cast.  If that's the case, then he needs to recruit more
    role players and cut down on the "wide body nuclear studs"!
    
    WILDCAT
17.2829he's sucked against good game coaches CNTROL::CHILDSBush Go Home! no you keep himTue Jan 07 1992 12:0715
 Besides having a talent advantage in 82 let us not forget that Snuffy was
 coaching against Stomper. If anyone can make Snuffy look good it's Stomper.

 Wingate was on the team but I don't believe Reggie Williams was. If he was
 he would have graduate with them instead of year later when we had Reggie
 and the Miracles...

 Chris, you're reaching. Rollie's graduation rate last time I heard was
 100%....

 and I still maintain that all the goaltending calls to start the game
 were BS....

 mike
17.2830Well said, WildcatSCNDRL::HUNTFenestracryptographer WannabeTue Jan 07 1992 13:4227
17.2831Stall Ball CARROL::LEFEBVREPojamaPeopleAreBoringMeToPiecesTue Jan 07 1992 14:0112
              <<< Note 17.2815 by RHETT::KNORR "Carolina Blue" >>>
    
>    re: 1Way
>    
>    Most consider the '82 Georgetown vs. UNC Title game one of the 2 or 3
>    greatest games in Title History.  Carolina had some great players, but
    
    Funny, most people I know consider it one of the most boring title
    games in history.  
    
    Mark.
    
17.2832HEY CROCK YOU EVER GONNA ANSWER OUR QUESTIONS?!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJohnTue Jan 07 1992 15:091
    
17.2833FRETZ::HEISERreach out and taunt someoneWed Jan 08 1992 15:4455
Article: 4268
From: rws@duke.cs.duke.edu (Ronnie W. Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
Subject: ACC Update
Date: 6 Jan 92 18:11:58 GMT
Organization: Duke University Computer Science Dept.; Durham, N.C.
 
I don't know how regularly I can do this, but here's a quick update of
ACC action.  If individuals want to post more details about games involving
their favorite teams, that will be wonderful, but I'll try to provide "quicky"
stats.  (HOME TEAM IN BOLDFACE)
 
Saturday Jan. 4:
  NORTH CAROLINA 85 Colorado 64
  Wake Forest 73 CLEMSON 58 - After struggling during the first half with
                              Tucker and Rogers in foul trouble, Wake puts
                              them away with a late surge.  Dave Odom has
                              announced that Randolph Childress, a guard
                              who had an excellent season last year for Wake,
                              is not going to play this year.
  Virigina 77 FLORIDA ST. 68 (OT) - Fla. St. found it's just as tough to win
          at home as Virigina surged at the end of regulation to put it in
          OT, then blew them away in the OT- Cory Alexander scored alot of
          points late in regulation, and Stith took over in OT
  NC STATE 83 Davidson 63 - Gugliotta had 25
 
Sunday Jan. 5:
   GEORGIA TECH 92 Maryland 67- Maryland tried a zone.  It failed.  They
            shot 29-74 from the field and got outrebounded 48-33.  Should
            play a great game against Duke.
 
 
This week:
Monday Jan. 6:  Samford at Georgia Tech
                Florida State at Duke
 
Wednesday Jan. 8: Wake Forest at Virginia (ESPN 7:00 EST)
                  Georgia Tech at NC St.
                  Duke at Maryland
 
Thursday Jan. 10: Clemson at North Carolina
Saturday Jan. 11: Georgia Tech at Duke
                  UNC vs. Notre Dame in New York (NBC 1:30 EST)
                  Florida St. at Wake Forest
                  UNC-Asheville at Clemson
                  Maryland at NC St.
                  UCLA at Arizona (couldn't leave out the most important
                                   game of the year -- at least in terms
                                   of net traffic)
 
-- 
Ronnie Smith             Duke University                Durham, NC 
 Addresses: CSNET: rws@duke  UUCP: decvax!duke!rws  INTERNET: rws@cs.duke.edu
 
The next Duke Invitational, April 4-6, 1992 in Minneapolis.
17.2834RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Wed Jan 08 1992 16:155
    
    	Both Duke and Tech won their games...FWIW
    
    B.A.
    
17.2835Need some Pepto yet ???SHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetThu Jan 09 1992 02:4220
 In yet another stirring episode of "Great Poultry Chefs Of The South",
 lasted night we saw two more tantalizing recipes for our favorite black
 bird.
 
 Yes, let us recall this past weekend when our very own Soup-A-Riffic sat
 down to a delightful appetizer of Crow Rockefeller (Virginia over Florida
 State) and then had himself a bowl of savory Crow Chowder ('Nova over
 Georgetown).
 
 But he wasn't done yet.   Lasted night he moved on to the main course and
 helped himself to a most delicious serving of Blackened Crow Au Jus
 (Virginia beat No. 19 Wake Forest) after which he topped off his hefty
 meal with a simply scrump-dilly-ishous dessert helping of Deep-Dish
 Chocolate Crow ('Nova over BC).
 
 Care for some Crow Coffee, Chris ???   Black, of course.
 
 Your pal,
 
 Chef Bob
17.2836They may start calling me Nostradamus (sp?)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jan 09 1992 10:5013
    Looks like I was right about the Cavs.  Remember after the Duke
    Excellent Loss I hypothezied that it could result in either improved
    play (confidence gained by playing the Nerds tough) or more L's (lost
    confidence cause they can't win the close ones), and that the key would
    be the FSU game?
    
    Well they won that one (albiet a nailbiter to say the least) and the
    ship appeared to be righted last night against Wake.  
    
    Congrats Virginia!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2837Better put the crystal ball in the dishwasher, Nostro ...SHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetThu Jan 09 1992 11:1113
17.2838CAMONE::WAYNude up and NoteThu Jan 09 1992 11:238
> Two down, seven to go ... with thirteen still to play.
 
Still, it was a very happy bunch of guys that I saw as I flipped past
ESPN on my way to Wings on the Discovery Channel....


8^)
'Saw
17.2839It's different, that's for sureBSS::JCOTANCHHow'd the Faiders to this weekend?Thu Jan 09 1992 11:274
    Someone at UVA needs to tell 'em that you paint the floor *inside* the
    lane, not outside it!!  :^)
    
    Joe
17.2840;^)CNTROL::CHILDSIs it a question of Love? hahaaaaaThu Jan 09 1992 11:294
 
 Is this year's bunch of Cavs better than last year's Mr_Objectivity???

 also what gives with Stith?
17.2841roundupHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Jan 09 1992 11:3713
I like the Knorr approach to predictions. I hereby predict that Virginia
will either win it's next game or lose it. I know I'll be right.

Meanwhile, the long season for the Packsters contiues, losing to Georgia
Tech, 80-63. Malcolm Mackey is certainly in the early running for MVP. He
had 24 points and 12 rebounds. 

In other action, Duke drubbed Maryland 83-66. Walt Williams continues to
shine for the Terps with 25 points last night. This guy should go very
high in the draft, maybe even lottery. He's a 6'8" guard who has all the
tools, including a willingness to work hard.

TTom
17.2842Hoos beat HeelsHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Jan 09 1992 12:097
Forgot to mention this little ditty:

	Virginia 83, No Carolina 68

Women's basketball, dontcha know.

TTom
17.2843Poor Lefty gettin' kicked 'round by a Dean Disciple! [Luv it!]RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jan 09 1992 12:2238
Fascinating Letter to the Editor in this weeks The Poop Sheet (TPS).  Every
issue TPS publishes a small column that lists what was going on 13 Years
Ago, 10 Years Ago, and 5 Years Ago.  In one of the October issues they
published the following under the "10 Years Ago" banner:

"Notre Dame coach Digger Phelps had this to say about Lefty Driessel (still 
at Maryland): "Some of my father's funerals had more imagination than Lefty's 
offense."

The "PooP Mailbag" in this weeks edition features a fairly lengthy letter
from the Lefthander himself!  He starts the letter off as follows:

"Dear Dennis:  [note:  "Dennis" is former Tar Heel Dennis Wychik]

I am writing to let you know of my resentment to your continuous attack on
me professionally.  Your latest attack in the October 25th edition concerning
Digger Phelps evaluation of my offense is uncalled for.  I doubt Digger said
what you quoted, and if he did, I am sure he was joking."

He then goes on to make some fairly good points about his clubs history
of FG shooting, which was pretty darn good.  (His 63-64 team shot .543,
an all-time NCAA record.  His 79-80 team, the year before Digger's alleged
quote, shot .551, which broke the NCAA all-time FG percentage record which
has since been broken.)

Lefty closes his letter as follows:

"My offense has won 579 games for me, put 11 of my teams in the top 10 and 
averaged 20 wins per season at three different schools that had very little
basketball tradition before I arrived.

Charles G. Driesell
Head Basketball Coach
James Madison University"



- ACC Chris
17.2844HPSRAD::RIEURead his Lips...Know new taxesThu Jan 09 1992 12:286
       Yeah, the good ol' lefthander. I remember "We'll (Maryland) be the 
    UCLA of the East!"
       And like TTom said, good job Crisp, pretty easy when you say a team
    (UVA) will be either good, or maybe bad, after a close loss. Very
    'objective' of you!
                                               Denny
17.2845Lefty winsHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Jan 09 1992 12:3310
Lefty and the Dukes came through beating that soon-to-be Big 10/11
non-power Penn State, 82-69.

Left out of the lefthanders bio is a game that people really do consider
one of the best ever, the 74 ACC tournament game between Maryland and NC
State. Maryland, who was in the top 5 at the time, got to stay home from
the NCAAs because at that time only one team got to go. State, of
course, won it all that year.

TTom
17.2846Talk about your trivialities...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Jan 09 1992 12:378
    
    Wow, some Tar Heel flunky is digging up ten-year-old quotes to blast
    Lefty Driesell's long-gone Maryland offense in a publication and gets 
    paid for it?  Worse yet, Lefty actually responds?  I've got to rate 
    this Poop Sheet thing up there with Hal's FFU...
    
    glenn
    
17.2847Wuychik a highly successful businessman - not a "flunky"RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jan 09 1992 13:0711
    re: .-1 (glenn)
    
    You're right in a sense.  The fact that Lefty bothered responding was
    the thing I found the most amazing.  Raises all kinds of possibilities,
    like, ferinstance, the Lefty vs. Dean feud lives on.  Would he have
    responded if Wuycik wasn't the Editor?  Probably not ...
    
    Also interesting that Lefty subscribes to TPS. 
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2848More on 'Hoos nice win over Demon DeacsSCNDRL::HUNTKiller Ninja Nuns At The OK CorralThu Jan 09 1992 13:5039
More on lasted night's Hoos win over Wake Forest.

The game started pretty slowly with neither team shooting particularly well.  
However, the Hoos were banging the boards real well and kept Wake from 
getting any second shots.   Then Bryant Stith and backup PG Doug Smith got 
hot and led them on a pretty methodical run to a 12-point halftime lead 
with 8 boards more than Wake.   The Deacs looked a bit puzzled and were 
certainly not looking for Rodney Rogers, their man-child mega-stud.    RR 
had only 5 points and 4 boards at intermission.

But all that changed in a hurry when the two teams came back for the final 
20:00.   Oh, my did Rogers explode.  Deacs went on a 16-4 run to tie it and 
RR had 11 of those points, all of them with beefy inside power moves.   The 
Deacs actually took a 2-point lead on two occasions but Jeff Jones called 
his timeouts in the right spots and settled the Hoos down.

He put them into a packed zone and the Deacs cooled down considerably.   
Rogers was forced to the outside and the rest of the Deacs looked lost 
again.  Dave Odom, lasted year's ACC COY, tried to rally them but Stith 
took over and canned a bunch of late-game points to ice it.   Junior 
Burrough had 10 tough boards and also hit a sweet baseline rainbow J to 
help cool off the Deacs in the late goings.   Doug Smith had a career best 
12 points and Stith finished with more than 20.   Final was Virginia 58-53 
with rebounds all even at 33 apiece.

Rogers finished with 20 points and 11 boards which is right on his 
average.  This young buck stud with the granite physique has ACC POY 
written all over him.   Might not be this year (probably go to Christian 
Laettner) but he will take home some hardware before his time in 
Winston-Salem is up.  He's the best power stud Wake has had since Rod 
Griffin's salad days in the mid-'70s.

Mark my word ... the Big Ten has their JJ but the ACC has its' RR.

Bob Hunt

P.S.   My prediction for the Wahoos' nexted game (14-Jan at Ga Tech) ???   
At least 40:00 minutes of hard-fought basketball with one of the two teams 
coming out on top when it's all over.   How am I doing, Soup ???
17.2849safer betHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Jan 09 1992 14:226
Going out on a limb with that "hard-fought" part, aren't we Bob.

I'm going to keep it safe and predict that the team with the most points
at the end of the game will win.

TTom
17.2850Livin' for thrills ...SCNDRL::HUNTKiller Ninja Nuns At The OK CorralThu Jan 09 1992 14:3915
You're right, TTom, but I threw caution to the wind and figured that since 
it's a conference game, the two teams might actually play hard.

But you're right, that's much too risky.    Better off just predicting that 
the game will be played on that day and will be won by one of the two teams.  
Oooh, but what happens if Atlanta gets hit with a freak snow storm or 
something and they can't play it on 14-Jan ???

Better take care of that somehow.   Here goes ... Sometime later this year, 
Georgia Tech and Virginia will play at least one basketball game and either 
one of them will win it.

How's that ???

Bob Hunt
17.2851Va and Ga Tech may or may not playHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Jan 09 1992 14:440
17.2852Georgia Who ???SCNDRL::HUNTKiller Ninja Nuns At The OK CorralThu Jan 09 1992 15:0110
For all we know, Virginia and Georgia Tech may or may not even exist.   
Basketball, the sport, may not even exist.   The entire universe might just 
be the fishbowl imagination of the autistic kid on St. Elsewhere. 

Whew, have to back off of this one completely.   Time to jump back on the 
Hoot Gibson Memorial "Make No Predictions, Eat No Crow" train.   Soup could 
use a ride on it given his recent binge of Crow Consumption.   Nah, he's a 
certified Crow Bulimic ... binge and purge to the max.

Bob Hunt
17.2853I refuse to refrain from not rewarding underachievement & Objective AnalsysisRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jan 09 1992 15:1016
    re: TTom and Ketch
    
    Haw haw.  :^(
    
    I'll eat crow when and if necessary, but unless you can change history
    (i.e. Virginia did NOT, repeat, did NOT, struggle at the end of last
    year or at the beginning of this year) I hardly think it likely on this
    issue.  
    
    In regards to Rollie, again, I'll pass at the Crow Cafe.  The guy beat
    a team whose best players back is so bad he shouldn't even be playing.  
    Big deal.  He's still below .500, and you guys continue to reward 
    underachievement when he pulls his so-called "shocking" upsets.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2854FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu Jan 09 1992 15:164
    The only certain prediction every year is the annual New Hampshire vs
    Villanova football game.  The Wildcats always win.
    
    John
17.2855Knorr'll either reply to this or he won'tHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Jan 09 1992 15:207
Oh Chris, you are but confused.

When did I address any crow eating on your part? I merely pointed out
that your prediction that you were taking so much credit for had you on
both sides of the line and, like T, you spoke up for the push.

TTom
17.2856ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJohn (Big Bad John)Thu Jan 09 1992 16:238
    Give it up, guys.  
    
    If the Crocker is craven enough to refuse to answer batch after
    batch a reasonable fact-based sports-related questions about his
    False Idol how cain you possibly expect him to be main enough to
    dine on any crow?
    
    MrT
17.2857Clemson is in for a *long* season ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Jan 10 1992 11:1423
    Carolina delivered one of the worst pastings in recent ACC memory last
    night, trashing Clemson by close to 40 big ones.  Clemson "improved"
    its record in Chapel Hill to 0 - 38.
    
    This one was over early.  In fact, Dean sat the starters down with
    eight (8) minutes still to play (a wise move, given the 4 games in 8
    days stretch that lies ahead) only to watch the lead continue to grow.  
    
    Tough to point out who played well for UNC.  The simple fact is,
    *everybody* looked good in this one.  I expected Cliff Ellis to play a
    packed in zone, similar to what FSU did against us and what his own
    team did effectively in last years ACC Tournament, but for whatever
    reason he didn't.  Instead he used man-to-man and some junk defenses
    and they were not effective.  On the other end we were contesting
    *everything*.  Defensively this UNC loves to play defense, which is, of
    course, a staple of Dean Smith coached teams.
    
    Not sure why, but Brian Reese didn't play.  He was in street clothes on
    the sidelines.  The ESPN announcers didn't consider this important
    enough to mention.  [He usually starts.  :^(]
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2858CAMONE::WAYNude up and NoteFri Jan 10 1992 11:169
>    This one was over early.  In fact, Dean sat the starters down with
>    eight (8) minutes still to play (a wise move, given the 4 games in 8
>    days stretch that lies ahead) only to watch the lead continue to grow.  
    
Was Dean *sure* that there were 8 minutes left to play?


Enquiring and all that,
'Saw
17.2859Some Snuff gemsSHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetFri Jan 10 1992 11:4123
 Saw an interesting little item in yesterday's paper ...  Someone asked
 Snuffy if John MacLeod was going to have some particularly tough problems
 at Notre Dame given Notre Dame's reputation as a football school.
 
 The questioner wanted to know since Carolina has the opposite reputation,
 of course, that of a basketball school.   Snuff's reply ???
 
   "I don't necessarily think we're a basketball school.  If anything,
   we're a soccer school."
 
 Yeah, right.   No truth to the rumors that his already prodigious schnozz
 leapt out another coupla inches.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.   He also insisted that he has *not* been recruiting for height the
 last couple of years.   With three 7-footers (Salvadori, Wenstrom, and
 Montross) on this year's team and a 7-3 freshman (Zwikker) coming in
 nexted year, you have to wonder just what "height" really means to the ol'
 geezer.
 
 Oh, and he also denied that the team is "slow" this year.   He substituted
 "not quick" instead.
17.2860Dean could say the sky is blue and you'd call it a 'gem' ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Jan 10 1992 12:235
    It's amazing to what degree a Weasel will go to criticize Dean. 
    *Amazing*.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2861CAMONE::WAYNude up and NoteFri Jan 10 1992 12:291
Reality is only a common illusion.....
17.2862NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Jan 10 1992 12:5310
    
    > It's amazing to what degree a Weasel will go to criticize Dean. 
    > *Amazing*.  
    
    I agree.  Let's take Dean at his word for a change.  If UNC isn't a
    basketball school, then it's kind of hard to claim that it's the NCAA's
    "flagship" program.  Congrats, Duke!
    
    glenn
    
17.2863C'mon Dean. Was he guffawing?CTHQ1::LEARYLook what they've done to my song,MawFri Jan 10 1992 12:557
    Chris,
    That's an incredibly nitwitty statement by Dean. He knows 'xactly
    which word comes first when North Carolina is mentioned ( and it ain't
    the S word)
    
    MikeL
    
17.2864So, Anson Dorrance rules Chapel Hill, right, Dean ???SHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetFri Jan 10 1992 13:2314
 Fact: North Carolina is a basketball school.
 Fact: Dean Smith is currently intent on recruiting skyscrapers.
 Fact: As such, they are dreadfully slow of foot.
 
 Dean denied all three facts.   Actually, I kinda like what he said and the
 obvious tongue-in-cheek way he said it.
 
 If Bobby Knight had said those things in those contexts, you'd have jumped
 all over him with charges of deliberate deception and unfair media
 manipulation ... all designed, no doubt, to embarrass or humiliate someone.
 
 In *this* case, Dean = Bobby.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2865ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJohn (Big Bad John)Fri Jan 10 1992 13:2415
    Recently Chris Webber and his Fab5 mates spoke with the press axeing
    that they not be called that but the "5 Xs" instead.  When pressed
    for a reason Chris noted that the Relford class was also called the
    Fab5 and, "unfortunately, they didn't win a national championship."
    
    Also, the other day John Saunders was doing a segue after a tape ESPN
    ran of past NCCA Title runs.  He started off by saying, "now it's true 
    that every team starts of the year dreaming of a national championship,
    but what cain most teams really have for a goal?"
    
    Crocker, my question to YOU is, why are all these people fixated on
    Titles and is this an unhealthy mental condition that cain lead to 
    Excellectomies?!
    
    MrT
17.2866BRING ON DUKE!!RAVEN1::OGLESBYBlue HeavenFri Jan 10 1992 20:358
    Brother Chris,
     the reason Reese was out, was because of a bum ankle. 
    
    the way it looked, the whole clemson team had bum ankles, except
    their coach, he had a bum head.
    
    Big "O"
    
17.2867System's broke! UNC loses now AND in March!SHALOT::MEDVIDnot one ounce or inch of controlSat Jan 11 1992 19:126
    A little over an hour ago, UNC got rocked, shocked, and knocked out by
    unranked 18 point underdog Notre Dame.  I could say more, but I think
    this one should be left to he of swami-like predictions...Mr. Hunt...
    the stage be yours.
    
    	--dan'l
17.2868Way to go, SnuffSHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetSun Jan 12 1992 04:0244
17.2869Haw haw haw...ARWEN::G_WAUGAMANMon Jan 13 1992 11:3613
    
    Upsets happen and this one by itself proves little, but it is funny
    that these things always seem to happen right after ACChris drops a
    pearl of wisdom on us.  Recall that he was the #1 naysayer of the
    hiring of John MacLeod at Notre Dame, in spite of his excellent career
    coaching record, college and pro.
    
    Maybe MacLeod will bust, but apparently it won't be at the hands of
    North Carolina...
    
    glenn
    
    
17.2870Nice call Bob.!! CNTROL::CHILDSDean &amp; BBJ two of a kindMon Jan 13 1992 12:231
17.2871RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGrapefruits,Golf, and GirlsMon Jan 13 1992 12:2913
    Funniest line of the game:
    
    About 1:52 left, and the announcer says "Now watch Dean - he's the
    MASTER when it comes to working the clock..."
    
    I immediately thought of the "MASTER" stumbling around bleating "How
    Much Time, How Much Time" in last year's FInal Four...
    
    I had a good belly laugh.
    
    Way too funny.
    
    JD
17.2872spin control conf.?CTHQ1::LEARYLook what they've done to my song,MawMon Jan 13 1992 12:344
    Day 1 of the ACCChris,Big "O" watch.  8^)
    
    MikeL
    
17.2873CAMONE::WAYNude up and NoteMon Jan 13 1992 12:499
>    Day 1 of the ACCChris,Big "O" watch.  8^)
    
They're caught in that magnetic anomaly, caused by the massive SPIN
going on in the environs around ACC Chris....


hth,
'Saw    

17.2874watch out,Ketch, Irish at 'Hoos on 1/21!CTHQ1::LEARYLook what they've done to my song,MawMon Jan 13 1992 12:5126
              <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 37.478                     NOTRE DAME SPORTS                     478 of 516
RHETT::KNORR "Carolina Blue"                         12 lines  12-DEC-1991 10:10
     -< Can't hate 'em as much as usual, cause JimmyBlack's on the staff >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Agreed MikeL.  It simply boggles my mind at how far Notre Dame
    basketball has fallen.  (Not that it saddens me, mind you.)  Consider
    that the "Fighting" Irish were playing the team picked by many to
    finish dead last in the Big East and were completely blown out of the
    game by halftime.  Their offensive output was almost non-existent.
    
    Not only have they got Kaintuck to look forward to, but UNC plays 'em
    on January 11th.  We beat 'em by close to 40 last year, and they look
    an awful lot worse this year.  Oooo ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
   Ooooooooo. Why the Ooooooo, Chris. Steel have a bellyache from all dat
    crow you et yesterday??  Haw Haw.
    
    MikeL
    8^)
    
17.2875Tarholes looked lost and no one took on leadership roleSHALOT::MEDVIDnot one ounce or inch of controlMon Jan 13 1992 12:5410
17.2876CAMONE::WAYNude up and NoteMon Jan 13 1992 12:569
>    Rollie beat the #5 team in the country over the weekend and there was
>    an article in yesterday's paper regarding how Mr. Johnson has earned

Please dan'l, say that a little bit softer now....


8^)

'Saw
17.2877How dare they !!!SHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetMon Jan 13 1992 12:5925
 Well, in yesterday's "Charlotte Observer" (a virulently pro-Snuff paper),
 there was the ever-so-faint whiff of an Excuse for Carolina's shocking
 blowout loss to the Irish.
 
 Jimmy Black (UNC '82) is an assistant coach for the Irish and the theory
 was brought forward that since he knows "The System", he could and indeed
 did help John MacLeod concoct a winning game plan.
 
 Coincidentally, this was the very same theory brought forth following two
 of lasted season's upset losses, the Final Four loss to Roy Williams'
 Jayhawks and an early-season upset loss to the South Carolina Gamecocks
 who, at the time, had an assistant coach named ... Jimmy Black.
 
 So, there you have it ... Look at each of Snuff's out-of-conference upset
 losses and find the link back to the program.  Whomever it may be, he was
 undoubtedly responsible for the heinous crime of simply remembering all of
 Snuff's plays and then telling his players what to look for.
 
 You would think that a coach as "great" as the Snuffer could come up with
 a couple of wrinkles every now and then to foil his once-loyal underlings
 from time to time but noooooo ... that would not be up to Snuff.   
 
 Dats why we loves him so.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2878I hated the 4-corners ...LUNER::BROOKSCan you say 'triangulated crossfire'?Mon Jan 13 1992 13:494
    re .2871
    
    JD, that guy must have been thinking of the 'legendary' 4 corners
    'offense' .... :-)
17.2879RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGrapefruits,Golf, and GirlsMon Jan 13 1992 14:0010
    Doc -
    
    Ha - you are so right.  The 4 -corners was the first reason for not
    liking the Deanster.  As un-american a thang as you cain get.  Slowing
    down a Hoops game to play "Four Square" like the girls in the
    playground at a catholic school.  
    
    See Doc - we do agree on some things!  ;-)
    
    JD
17.2880While we're waiting...RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Mon Jan 13 1992 15:5232
    While we're all patiently waiting the explanation of another
    *Excellent* Loss from Chris and Big "0"...


Bob, you'll get a kick out of this TRUE story!

	My sister was on her way in from Ohio on business at the 
Greenville/Spartanburg Jetport, when she spotted John Crotty and 
another *older* man with him. So, being the big State fan(likewise ACC) she 
proceeded to introduce herself as an avid fan who enjoyed watching John at 
the University of Virginia. She told John(who is now with the Semi-Pro 
league here in Greenville, the Greenville Spinners)that he WAS the 
Greenville Spinners! John thanked her for the compliment. John then 
introduced the *older* man as his father, John Crotty Sr.  The elder Crotty 
asked my sister who she pulled for in the ACC?, since he realized that my 
sister always wears something red with a wolf on her.
	
	She said the Pack! John Sr. then said that the Pack was the best 
rivalry he had while he was in college at ***U.N.C***!!!!! My sister 
immediately asked John Jr. why he didn't go to ***U.N.C.***???

	John replied!  You couldn't get me out of Virginia, I wouldn't play for 
anybody but Terry Holland! He said that Terry was the best coach that he 
had ever been associated with. He said that the pressure that the 
***U.N.C.*** players face is uncalled for. The kids are trying to hard to 
impress the ***PAST*** players...i.e. Jordon,Worthy..etc.

	They exchanged goodbyes and went they're separate ways out of the 
airport.  

	I liked the attitude that John Jr shows with his loyalty to UVa.
B.A.
17.2881LUNER::BROOKSCan you say 'triangulated crossfire'?Mon Jan 13 1992 15:558
    re .2879
    
    Amazing isn't it JD ? 
    
    doc
    
    p.s. 4-square wasn't bad in junior high - 'course we guys made some
    adjustments to the rules .... :-)
17.2882RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Mon Jan 13 1992 15:5911
    
    	I'm surprised no one has mentiond the other games...
    
    	Duke over Tech
    	Fla St. over Wake
    	State over Terps
    	Clemson over UNC-Asheville
	Notre Dame OVER UNC
    
    B.A.
    
17.2883CAMONE::WAYNude up and NoteMon Jan 13 1992 16:0719
B.A --

I have many memories of GSP airport.  I can't recall how many times
I'd leave up here wearing a winter jacket, and get off down there
breaking a sweat...


Say, do you know Ray Lattimore?  I used to work with him down there
(when I consulted for the City) and it seemed like everybody for miles
around new ol' Ray....  ;^)


I also realized why NASCAR racing is so big down there.  Contrary to
the belief that it started from running 'shine, I think it started at
four-lane stop lights down there, where within the first block after
green, all four cars had switched lanes 8^)


'Saw
17.2884RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Mon Jan 13 1992 16:1111
17.2885Followed Crotty's career from high school daysSHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetMon Jan 13 1992 16:159
 I've never met John Crotty but he's a Jersey Shore boy (like me) so I
 always rooted a little extra harder for him to do well when he was a
 Wahoo.   And I was really pulling for him to make with the Hornets
 this past fall.
 
 I did know that his dad had played at Carolina but never knew the
 reason his kid went to C'ville instead of Chapel Hell.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2886CAMONE::WAYNude up and NoteMon Jan 13 1992 16:4421
17.2887WE SHALL OVERCOME...RAVEN1::OGLESBYBlue HeavenMon Jan 13 1992 21:5121
    Now hold up weasels, N.C. was not the only team that was upset over the
    weekend. Chris nor myself predicted an undefeated season. Notre Dame
    was on an emotional high. You see weasels, when you play the mighty
    blue it brings out the best in any team. The level that the Irish
    played at against N.C., they could of beat any team in the Country,
    including Duke.
    
    I have mentioned many of times, that Dean is a great great coach.
    I still feel the same way now,but I see a problem in the near future.
    Not with his coaching but with his recruiting. It seems to me that
    Dean is in love with recruiting "tall, slow white 7 footers". No 
    matter how great his coaching abilities are, he needs to start
    back recruiting 6'8 to 6'10 athletes, who can run and jump.
    Looking at our roster from top to bottom N.C. has the fourth best 
    supply of talent in the ACC. In the past it was a combination of great
    talent and coaching, but if N.C. make it to the Sweet Sixteen this
    year, it will strictly be Dean coaching abilities that gets them there.
    
    
    Hey B.A. the wolfpunks are not exactly setting the ACC on fire this
    year!! 
17.2888RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Mon Jan 13 1992 22:3311
17.2889Keep trying, Raving Blue, you'll get there somedaySHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetTue Jan 14 1992 02:1857
17.2890Where O Where Has Our Little Soup Gone ???SHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetTue Jan 14 1992 02:366
 Day 2 of the Soup Watch is dawning ...
 
 I'll be bold and go out on limb here.   I predict that Chris will either
 enter a reply in here or he won't.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2891Last few, ya gots me rollin' BobCTHQ1::LEARYLook what they've done to my song,MawTue Jan 14 1992 11:431
    
17.2892Knorr is IgKnorring usSHALOT::MEDVIDnot one ounce or inch of controlTue Jan 14 1992 11:5013
> Gasp !!! Horror !!!  Shock !!!  Snuff *BENCHED* (insert sound of woman
> screaming) Hubert Davis at the start of the game for, get this, *POOR
> PLAY* (women fainting, crashing to floor) against Notre Dame.   
> 
> Can you believe it ???   The poor kid must have been horribly humiliated
> and disgusted to see his coach, his trusted mentor, feed his dark and
> demented ego in such a public display of power hungry vengeance.
    
    Yer kiddin!  You sure he just wasn't in foul trouble and you didn't
    know it since you depend so so much on the announcers telling you
    what's going on due to your lack of attention to the game?
    
    	--dan'l
17.2894RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGrapefruits,Golf, and GirlsTue Jan 14 1992 12:4910
    Did Dick Vitale have anything to say about this wanton display of
    egotism by Deanster in benching one of his stars!  Perhaps Ol Hubert
    wasn't playing well in the warmups!  How humiliating!  What will Walter
    think!   
    
    There's not another major college hoops coach who would stoop so low as
    to humiliate a star player in such a way.  Not a one!   Heck, I predict
    that next game Dean will either start OR bench ol Hubie again!
    
    JD
17.2895He either had no fouls or some fouls ...SCNDRL::HUNTKiller Ninja Nuns At The OK CorralTue Jan 14 1992 12:5516
17.2896CAMONE::WAYNude up and NoteTue Jan 14 1992 13:0214
>And, based on this exhaustive research (after all, I don't want to put 
>myself at the intellectual mercy of the announcers), I believe I can safely 
>say that Hubert Davis began the game on the bench with *NO* fouls.
>
>The humiliation that youngster must have felt ... oh, the shame of it all.


Bob, perhaps the young lad might have had a bout with an extraordinarily
difficult mid-term exam, or had a term paper due recently.  

I mean, we should explore ALL the possibilities, don't you think?


'Saw
17.2897Fla St. the new flagship program??CNTROL::CHILDSDean &amp; BBJ two of a kindTue Jan 14 1992 13:178
 Way back, Bob you really can't fault Dean on his claim that UNC is a 
 soccer school. After all Dean like the rest of the world equate success
 with National Championships and given the dearth of basketball championship
 hardware compare to the surplus of soccer championship hardware it only
 stands to reason that their a soccer school...

 mike
17.2898Yeah right, John ...SHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetTue Jan 14 1992 13:4214
 John MacLeod offered up an Excuse yesterday for the Heels' loss to his
 Irish.   Although how he could have kept from rolling in laughter is a
 miracle.
 
 He said that Carolina's schedule may have caused them to let up.   MacLeod
 observed that Carolina played his Irish in between two home conference
 games against Clemson (last week) and Maryland (last night).
 
 So, in other words, the Mighty Snuff couldn't get his buck studs up to
 play three losers in a row.   To Snuff's credit, they handled the home
 games against the ACC basement dwellers but gagged mightily when the
 national spotlight hit them.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2899Hoos come up short in good effortSCNDRL::HUNTKiller Ninja Nuns At The OK CorralWed Jan 15 1992 12:1154
The Hoos dropped a tough one to Ga Tech lasted night at Tech.  Final score 
was 75-71.   {Note: Much better than last year's 30+ point blowout.}

Too much Travis Best and James Forrest.   Best is very very good for a 
freshman point guard.  Has a sweet J and seems to run the team quite well.  
Credit has to go to Cremins for replacing Kenny Anderson so quickly.   
James Forrest is a nuke widebody who ran into foul trouble lasted night but 
didn't let it stop his offensive game.

Matt Geiger and Malcolm Mackey were "sorta" there last night.   Nothing 
spectacular.  Jon Barry was horrible.   He couldn't miss against Duke on 
Saturday but he couldn't hit water if he fell outta the boat last night.

As for the Hoos, there are some good signs.   Bryant Stith is playing great 
ball right now.   Another 20+ point game with half a dozen boards and some 
nice shot blocks on Forrest down the stretch.   Corey Alexander and Junior 
Burrough are the best of the Hoos' own Fab Five Frosh.    Alexander and 
Best will have many memorable point guard battles over the next several 
years.   Burrough has nuke widebody potential; great on the glass but needs 
work on mid-range shooting.   Yuri Barnes is the third freshman who gets 
any significant minutes ... hit a 50 footer at the halftime buzzer !!!

All in all, not too devastating.   Hoos were a 7-point dog so they 
certainly didn't shock anyone by losing by just 4.   Tech is a very tough 
road game ... hopefully we can get this one back in C'Ville.

Now for some bone-pickin' ... Man, I wanted to slap Billy Packer upside da 
haid on several occasions.  Openly "coaching" Tech all game long ... "Tech 
should isolate Stith in a box-and-one now ... Tech needs to work it inside 
to Mackey ... Best has to take that shot" ... and so on.   Sure did seem 
like he had the Jackets in mind most of the game.

And then he blasted the Hoos' late game fouling strategy.   Called it 
boring and too often doesn't win the game anyway.   Said that it works 
maybe 1 game in a hundred.  Course he had to be reminded that 'Nova did 
exactly that the night before.   Called for the international rule where 
the fouled team can simply choose to get a fresh inbounds play rather than 
shoot the frees.

Now, on the one hand, I agree with him.   It makes the lasted 2:00 minutes 
take forever and more often than not the team with the lead does hit the 
frees and foils the whole plan.   And, yes, the int'l rule is a good one 
and it prevents the strategy.

But Jones was trying to win the game within *TODAY'S* rules.   What was he 
supposed to do ... let Tech dribble the clock out ???   He has to try and 
get the ball back and the way to do that is foul their worst free throw 
shooter and hope he misses.    If it's a rule problem, then fix the rule, 
Billy.  But don't blast someone who's trying to cut a gap 'cause there 
ain't any other way to do it.

His Anti-Hoo feelings were loud and clear lasted night.

Bob Hunt
17.2900EARRTH::BROOKSFree MrT !Wed Jan 15 1992 13:012
    Bob, I think the foul-a-thons would be reduced if the NCAA would go on
    and use a 30 second clock ... 45 is still too long ...
17.2901VLAB::RIEURead his Lips...Know new taxesWed Jan 15 1992 13:272
    Day 3 of 'Soupwatch I"
                                       Denny
17.2902No MorT, No Soup, I think it's a conspiracy.AXIS::ROBICHAUDHOMER,PLATO,VOLTAIRE,bobknightWed Jan 15 1992 13:361
    
17.2903College <> NBASCNDRL::HUNTKiller Ninja Nuns At The OK CorralWed Jan 15 1992 13:5812
17.2904"College prank" in the works...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Jan 15 1992 15:587
    
    >           -< No MorT, No Soup, I think it's a conspiracy. >-
    
    Prob'ly a new small software company starting up...
    
    glenn
    
17.2905I think he's trying to rehab, Nixon-style ...EARRTH::BROOKSFree MrT !Wed Jan 15 1992 16:322
    Actually, MorT sent me a letter - should I publish it ? Then you guys
    can tell me what you think ...
17.2906We're #2, We're #2WMOIS::REEVE_CWed Jan 15 1992 18:059
    BobH-
    
    Thanks for the wrapup of the Tech-UVa game. It wasn't shown up here in
    the Hub of the Universe. I would have loved to see Alexander and Best
    matchup since most folks rank them 1-2 freshmen PGs in the land. At
    least the good guys won ;^). Nice to see Va playing better than they
    did at the start.
    
    GT Chris
17.2907CNTROL::CHILDSThis note sure gone crazyThu Jan 16 1992 17:341
 better not post it without his permission...
17.2908AXIS::ROBICHAUDHOMER,PLATO,VOLTAIRE,bobknightThu Jan 16 1992 17:375
    	One more day and I lose this rotten P-Name.  It's a shame MorT
    isn't around to enjoy it.  I predict that Dook is setting itself
    up for a UNLV like crash and burn.
    
    				/Don
17.2909VLAB::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesThu Jan 16 1992 17:522
    Day 4 'Crookwatch I'
                                     Denny
17.2910This just in ... hot off the presses !!!SCNDRL::HUNTKiller Ninja Nuns At The OK CorralThu Jan 16 1992 18:1930
		"Campus Police Detain Distraught Heels Fan"

Chapel Hill (AP) - University of North Carolina campus police today 
detained an obviously upset Tar Heel basketball fan who had hand-cuffed 
himself in protest near the front doors of the Dean E Smith Student 
Activities Center.   The young man, whose name has not been released by 
campus police, was demanding to speak with Coach Dean Smith and would not 
remove himself from the facility.

Police spokesman Floyd E Turnipseed held a press conference shortly after 
the incident and stated that "Boy, that is one dadgum upset basketball fan.   
He kept repeating to himself 'I can't login.  They'll fry me.  Oh, they'll 
just fry me.  You have no idea.   Please, Coach Smith, I need an excuse to 
take back with me.'"   

Turnipseed speculated that the young man had most likely predicted a big 
Tar Heel victory in last weekend's game against Notre Dame in New York City 
and was unable to accept the team's surprising upset loss.    Turnipseed 
commented, "Some folks take this stuff right darn seriously.   Apparently 
this here boy was so upset by that loss that he just lost it.   We're gonna 
let him sit and stew for a while until he gets a hold o' hisself.   We have 
a special room for these kinds of cases.   We have a VCR all set up with a 
tape of the '82 title game and we just play it for 'em until they've calmed 
down some."

Coach Smith was present at the press conference and offered little comment 
on the incident.   Smith did, however, ask how much time was left.

Bob Hunt  
17.2911So that's where he's been!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Thu Jan 16 1992 20:096
    re-1,

    	EXCELLENT!!!!!!!  Chalk up another one for King Weasel!!! :*)

    B.A.

17.2912VLAB::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesFri Jan 17 1992 09:552
       Was MorT peeking out from behind a potted plant near the podium?
                                            Denny
17.2913CAMONE::WAYNude up and NoteFri Jan 17 1992 10:157
I think Poor MrT and ACC Chris are off some place swapping spit.....


[Just KIDDING!]


'Saw
17.2914I was in Orlando all week (CorporateCircleJerk)ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJohn (Big Bad John)Fri Jan 17 1992 13:111
    
17.2915Or was it Minnie this time ???SHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetFri Jan 17 1992 13:393
 Was it real hot inside the Mickey Mouse costume, T ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2916Now that's funny!DEMING::MCKAYFri Jan 17 1992 14:285
    Bob Hunt
    		.2910 was hilarious, even Chris will have to laugh
    at that.  Made my day
    
    Jimbo
17.2917ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJohn (Big Bad John)Fri Jan 17 1992 15:2910
    Naw, I was in a monkey suit.  Saw Cowboy Rodopolous, though.  We
    caught a reel bad case a the Heiniskitis.
    
    Tale me, has ACCrock been in here since Dean's fine performance
    against the Irish in MSG?  Been hankering to talk to him since I
    guffawed at that haidline.  Especially in light a Bob's brilliant
    performance overcoming JJ & The Buckeyes WITHOUT their best pseudo
    center Alan Henderson.
    
    MrT
17.2918DYPSS1::ROPERTHE MONSTER MASHFri Jan 17 1992 15:359
    MrT, need to clue you in on something.  IU's win had NOTHING to do with
    Bob's brilliant coaching!  He practically pulled a Smif choke during
    the 26-2 run by OSU in the second half.  OSU's lack of patience killed
    them in this game.  
    
    BTW, Bob admitted after the game that he "choked" when he didn't call
    the timeout!
    
    WILDCAT
17.2919JENEVR::FRANCUSMets in '92Fri Jan 17 1992 15:388
    Any imbecile coach would have called a timeout in the IU game agains OS
    long before OS tied the game and took the lead. IU was a very lucky
    team to get away witha win.
    
    Won't matter anyway, final 4 will see the Big East dominate.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
17.2920Oh, my, how the fates do conspire !!!SHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetFri Jan 17 1992 17:1217
 Just happened to glance at the upcoming schedule and guess who's in Chapel
 Hill this Saturday to play against Snuff and his Heels ???
 
 You got it, the hot hot hot Villanova Wildcats.   Winners of 4 straight
 tough Big East games immediately following poor Soup's misguided "burial"
 of Coach Rollie Massimino over in the Big East note.   The game is on CBS,
 although I'm not sure if it's a regional or a national broadcast.
 
 Consider also that Carolina horse-whipped Notre Dame lasted year by an
 82-47 score (thus giving rise to poor Soup's pre-game chest struttin') and
 then took the gaspipe last weekend.   Well, Carolina also pasted 'Nova
 lasted year by a score of 84-69 in the 2nd round of the NCAA East Region.
 
 Dare I say it ???  Do we smell a Snuff Choke a_comin' up ???   Could be an
 enjoyable Monday morning in here, boys ...
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2921Many Many (8^)*'sCELTIK::JACOBIntrospective...Make a StatementFri Jan 17 1992 17:418
    
    >>    <<< Note 17.2914 by ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSY "John (Big Bad John)" >>>
    >>          -< I was in Orlando all week (CorporateCircleJerk) >-
    
    Then they had an EXPERIENCED pivot man present, I see.
    
    JaKe
    
17.2922ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCraven Welsher: /RobitussinFri Jan 17 1992 18:1214
    >Any imbecile coach would have called a timeout in the IU game...
    
    So very true.  But, fortunately for Indiana, their coach is not a
    imbecile but the greatest Genius the game's ever seen.  He let them
    suffer a bit, then gave them the answer, which they delivered to 
    perfection.
    
    Any other team playing the talented OSU squad after such a run woulda
    called a earlier TO and gone on to lose the game, which a course Bob
    didn't.  
    
    He won.
    
    MrT
17.2923We,re rollin now...RAVEN1::OGLESBYBlue HeavenSat Jan 18 1992 00:558
                     
    
        Tarheels by at least 10!!! OVER Littlnova
    
    
    
    
           BIG "O"
17.2924Guess it will be quiet in here for a while...AXIS::ROBICHAUDRic Flair - WWF Champ!Mon Jan 20 1992 11:431
    
17.2925Talent winSHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetMon Jan 20 1992 11:5913
17.2926unbelievableCNTROL::CHILDSLOD faux-pas ChampionsMon Jan 20 1992 12:075
 more like a clemson win to me Bob. Absolutely disgusting the hometown
 favorism. It was worst than than the Giants/Dallas game at the Meadowlands..

 mike
17.2927VLAB::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesMon Jan 20 1992 12:122
       Crockwatch I, one week and counting...
                                    Denny
17.2928AXIS::ROBICHAUDRic Flair - WWF Champ!Mon Jan 20 1992 12:198
17.2929You don't think we'll be havin' fun in March ???SCNDRL::HUNTKiller Ninja Nuns At The OK CorralMon Jan 20 1992 13:3211
No Slasher, you didn't misread me.  I indeed "speculated" that the Snuffer 
might take the gaspipe against Rollie.   It didn't happen.   Been wrong 
before; no great shame in that.  Hard to see why we should all of a sudden 
get quiet.   And besides, each Snuffer talent win just sets up the 
inevitable down-the-road upset choke job all that much for the better.

You want to talk "silence" ???   Last week, it was deafening in here.

Bob Hunt

 
17.2930LUNER::BROOKSCraven,pandering,girlymon:MrTMon Jan 20 1992 13:382
    I think the fun' will be lessened if the 'Heels blow UVa out of the
    H20, esp. after the win over ND ....
17.2931another greyhound?FRETZ::HEISERpark ya like a car in yo mama's garageMon Jan 20 1992 15:364
    What's this I hear about Walter Davis' nephew being a Tar Heel?  Is he
    as good as his uncle?  
    
    Mike
17.2932ACC ponderings ...SCNDRL::HUNTKiller Ninja Nuns At The OK CorralMon Jan 20 1992 15:4249
Actually, the first of this year's two Virginia-Carolina games is coming up 
this Saturday at the Dean Dome.  And, despite the Hoos' dismal record in 
Chapel Hill, I believe there is some room for just a wee bit of optimism in 
Cavalier Country.   Not much, but a little ...

The Hoos' own Fab Five Frosh, called the "greatest class ever produced by a 
first year coach" by recruiting guru Bob Gibbons, is coming on stronger 
every game.   The Hoos took two non-conference games this past weekend 
(Notre Dame and Marshall) and three of the frosh are seeing significant 
minutes.   Cory Alexander, Junior Burrough, and Yuri Barnes are getting all 
the PT they can handle and it's paying off.    They are *lightning* quick 
and will give the taller Heels a lot of problems with their speed.

Montross had his best game as a freshman lasted year against the Hoos in 
Chapel Hill.   If the Hoos can negate his height with some quicksilver, 
then perhaps young Mr Montross can have a more mediocre afternoon.

Alexander is having some ball-handling problems, though.  Despite his 
speed, he is leaving the ball on the floor at times and throws more than 
an acceptable number of bad passes.   His backup, Doug Smith, came back 
yesterday after an emergency appendectomy (only 1 week out) and played 
great.   Bryant Stith is having yet another All-ACC year.

Could be a good game.   First up, though, is the Hoos against Clemson on 
Wednesday night.   Can not afford to lose to a struggling Tiger squad.   
Which brings us to another point ... a quick early-season look at the ACC 
standings ...

Duke, North Carolina, and Ga Tech are right at the top where they belong.  
Duke is playing all-world hoops right now.    Second best team in the state 
behind the Hornets ... :-)   They just might go 16-0 in conference.

The second tier has Virginia, Florida State, and Wake bunched together.   
The Hoos are where I honestly thought they'd be (their win over Fla State 
looks bigger every day!) at this point while Wake has struggled some and 
Fla State has been enjoying a very nice honeymoon with 3 wins already.

The bottom tier has State, Maryland, and Clemson struggling although Tom 
Gugliotta and Walt Williams are doing nothing to hurt their pro prospects.  
Bona fide lottery picks, both of 'em.

What is interesting is that the conference could easily qualify 6 teams for 
the big dance provided all six run roughshod over the bottom three.  And it 
could happen ...   We might see the 6th place team in the conference with 
possibly 9 (maybe even 10) conference wins followed by a 7th place team 
with maybe only 3 or 4 wins in conference play.   If that happens, 6 go 
with ease ...

Bob Hunt 
17.2933Okay, Nephew Hubie, put both hands around your neck and squeeze ...SCNDRL::HUNTKiller Ninja Nuns At The OK CorralMon Jan 20 1992 15:5217
17.2934Hubie DavisHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Jan 20 1992 15:529
Mike, it's Hubie Davis.

By no one's standards is Hubie in anyway as good as his uncle. This is
not to say that he won't blossom in the NBA but as a collegian, this guy
Hubie might not be able to make some of the teams that Dean has fielded.
To his credit, Hubie has developed and will probably be in some NBA
camp.

TTom
17.2935SNOOOOOOOO-OOOO-OOOOOO-OOOOOOOO-OOOOOOOORT !!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Jan 20 1992 15:574
    What with the way the cocaine market has tightened up it's hard to 
    see how Hubie will run as fast or jump as high as his Uncle Walter.
    
    MrT
17.2936DYPSS1::ROPERTHE MONSTER MASHMon Jan 20 1992 16:117
    Bob, how can it be that Virginia with a "young, struggling, about
    to lose his grip" coach can beat ND by 27?  Is this not the same team
    that waxed UNC the weekend before?
    
    Where are you when we need you ACC Chris???
    
    WILDCAT
17.2937/Daidbeat Don's all beat-up. I need fresh meat.ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDon Robichaud = /Daidbeat DonTue Jan 21 1992 18:485
    What happened to ACCrock?  Checked elf and he ain't been fired or
    nothing.  Is the main on vacation or the road, or is he steal reeling
    from that shameful MSG loss?
    
    MrT
17.2938Day IXVLAB::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesTue Jan 21 1992 18:552
    
    
17.2939CAMONE::WAYNude up and NoteTue Jan 21 1992 19:164
Is it Lent yet?  Mabee he done give up SPORTS fer Lent.....
    
    

17.2941FRETZ::HEISERI think I'm gonna hurl! -G. BushWed Jan 22 1992 17:1019
Article: 5384
From: rgn@cs.cs.appstate.edu (Rob Norris)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
Subject: Dean Smith ... hospitalized?
Date: 22 Jan 92 18:08:32 GMT
Sender: news@lester.appstate.edu (USENET News System)
Organization: Appalachian State University
 
I just heard a blurb on the radio that Dean Smith has
been hospitalized after being mugged and beaten up.  I
was on the phone so couldn't concentrate on the radio but
thought I heard something about surgery for a broken ____?
 
Does anybody have any info?
--
Rob Norris				Domain: rgn@cs.appstate.edu	
Department of Mathematical Sciences	        rgn@ecsvax.uncecs.edu	
Appalachian State University		BITNET: norrisrg@appstate
Boone, NC 28608				Phone:  (704)-262-2296
17.2942Dean's wifeHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Jan 22 1992 18:518
It was Dean's wife.

She was mugged in Chapel Hill. Got beat up, including a broken hip.
They ripped off her purse. Supposedly she's in good condition.

Just heard the story on the radio.

TTom
17.2943RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Wed Jan 22 1992 18:597
    
    	Who did it? ACC????? :*)
    
    	Someone may still be upset over the N/D loss...
    
    B.A.
    
17.2944;-)FRETZ::HEISERI think I'm gonna hurl! -G. BushWed Jan 22 1992 19:311
    Is MorT in Charlotte?
17.2945That's sad...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Jan 22 1992 19:5410
    
    In all seriousness, this is pretty shocking stuff that someone would
    beat up Dean Smith's wife right in downtown Chapel Hill.  I'll bet Dean
    and his wife have never been made to feel unsafe there before, and then
    something like this happens.  Just goes to show you that violence in
    America is a problem and it's a problem for just about anyone,
    anywhere...
    
    glenn
    
17.2946I aim not gonna make a sick joke. MMFFTTBLL !!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDon Robichaud = /Daidbeat DonWed Jan 22 1992 20:541
    
17.2947its only Mrs. SmurfFRETZ::HEISERreach out and taunt someoneWed Jan 22 1992 21:001
    sure you can T!  Go for it!
17.2948Hard to believe that could happen in C. HillSHALOT::HUNTFluffy Bunny FeetWed Jan 22 1992 21:153
 That's a shame.   Her name's Linnea.   Hope she's okay.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2949The 'watch' is over. Here's to a 'W' over the Wufpack ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jan 22 1992 22:316
    Dean's wife *beaten up*??!!  ACK!!
    
    I knew our fans were bad, but never *this* bad ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2950Meeting place...?RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Wed Jan 22 1992 22:337
    
    	Anyone going to the State-Va game at Raleigh on Feb 1st?
    
    	I'll be there will the Pack club...maybe I can meet up with some
    noters.
    
    B.A.
17.2951RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Wed Jan 22 1992 22:3410
17.2952DUGROS::ROSSBuchanan in an upsetThu Jan 23 1992 02:3210
    
    
    Carolina blew!   Tom Gugliotta may be the bext all-around player in the
    ACC {okay, maybe Rodney Rogers is tied}.
    
    Just think, the Tar Heels have at least 3, probably 4 more ACC losses
    left:  Duke {once or twice}, GA Tech once, and then one loss to either
    Wake or Virginia.   Duke has the real title locked up already.
    
    
17.2953Go PackHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Jan 23 1992 11:1915
Great win for the Pack. It had all the ingredients. Gugliotta was
unconscious from the outside. Kevin Thompson more than held his own in
the middle against the ponderous front line of the Tar Heels, especially
Montross and Salvadori who both fouled out. But the backcourt unknowns of
State have to be given a lot of the credit as well. Curtis Marshall and
Donnie Seale chipped in 24 between them but more important took Hubie
Davis and Derrick Phelps out of their offense.

Dean and the Heels even went into a box and four, a true tribute to
Gugliotta.

Meanwhile in the rest of the ACC, Clemson beat the Hoos, 51-48 and Wake
beat Maryland 86-76.

TTom
17.2954anywhere anytime ain't that grandCNTROL::CHILDSthat Sir, is a_inebriate fabricationThu Jan 23 1992 12:589
 Is the watch back in effect?  Doug you said it all....

 mike

 ps. about Dean's wife when you build bombs instead of taking care of your own
     poor misfortunate souls, these things are going to happen. Street Violence
     has risen drastically every year since 1980. Every year since more and more
     welfare cuts have been inacted. Coincidence? I don't think so...
17.2955CAMONE::WAYCuimhnich, 13 February 1692Thu Jan 23 1992 13:5215
>     welfare cuts have been inacted. Coincidence? I don't think so...


Ought to do with FDR did with welfare.  If you wanna go on assistance, there's
bridges that need building, roads that need patching, litter to be picked
up....

If hand's ain't idle, they won't be wrapped around Mrs. Smith's throat...


I'm not fan of Dean, and I do enjoy bashing him in here, but I surely 
hope that the lady is ok and the prognosis is good....


'Saw
17.2956DamnSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Jan 23 1992 14:0422
 Googs rules.  Unconscious shooting.  All over the floor.   That's the best
 performance by any player in the ACC so far this year with Sgt Laettner's
 bulldozing of Ga Tech a distant second.
 
 Snuff's Heels packed it in with about 6:00 to go as they put up some big
 time masonry from three-point range.   Salvadori and Montross look like
 they're stuck in slow motion but Brian Reese had a good game.
 
 As for the Hoos, the game was not on the tube and I couldn't find it with
 the dish so I didn't see it.  However, losing road games to conference
 basement dwellers is not a brand new story in C'ville.   When you sign up
 for the Hoos, you come to expect these exercises in mediocrity.   Damn.
 
 With State and Clemson winning, that pretty much shoots down my
 ill-advised "blessed are the meek" theory.   Shoulda known better to
 expect anything other than the usual ACC feeding frenzy ... All bets are
 off as they should have been all along ... Duke excepted for now.
 
 Virginia at North Carolina this Saturday.   Time to get a serious game
 face ready, boys.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2957CSC32::P_PAPACEKThu Jan 23 1992 15:3413
    
    Well I don't follow basketball too closely, but happened to see NC
    State beat Dean Smith lasted night by 13 or so points.
    
    Was not impressed with the Deanster's strategy.  They were behind by
    7-9 points with 6 minutes to go and all Dean had his troops do was fire 
    up 3 point attempts.  Seven misses in a row at one stretch.  Seems to me 
    like he panicked.  If you score at least two and play tough defense there 
    was plenty of time for a comeback, especially the way NC State was shooting 
    free throws.
    
    Pat 
                                                          
17.2958It's deja vu all over again (and again, and again.)ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDon Robichaud = /Daidbeat DonThu Jan 23 1992 15:385
    >(I) was not impressed with the Deanster's strategy.
    
    Bingo!
    
    MrT
17.2959RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Thu Jan 23 1992 15:4015
17.2960State now has a successful season this year.... DECWET::METZGER/Slasher welshes on a bet?Thu Jan 23 1992 16:4424
Pretty poor adjustments on Dean's part last night. With the height advantage 
they had over the Pack I expected a 2 towers type offense where the low men
got fed close to the hoop all night. But, I guess the system isn't made for
adjustments :-)

Gugliotta was great for most of the game but he was pretty well negated during
the last 6 minutes or so. I'm sure he was beat by then having to carry much of 
the offense for the whole game. The fact that they negated him for the last 6 
minutes made the 3 point clangathon so enjoyable. They could have closed the
lead if they could adapt while the game is in progress...

Montross looked good on the boards but was offensivly non-existant. Plus that
haircut is one ugly doo. Salvatori looked like a stiff on defense. He's a 
hacker.  

State's backcourt did a very good job and the whole State team passed well. 
I only saw 3-4 out of control drives all night. 

What ever happened to Corchiani and Monroe? Are either of them in the NBA?

No Slamma, Jamma NBA game last night.....

Metz
17.2961ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDon Robichaud = /Daidbeat DonThu Jan 23 1992 16:484
    I think it's time to speculate whether the Star Hells "are one of
    the season's greatest disappointments along with LSU."
    
    MrT
17.2962FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu Jan 23 1992 16:513
    Corchiani played for Orlando against the Celtics last night.
    
    John
17.2963did anyone say Dean??CNTROL::CHILDSthat Sir, is a_inebriate fabricationThu Jan 23 1992 17:224
 What's to speculate???? the answers as plain as snarz on his face...

 mike
17.2964CAMONE::WAYCuimhnich, 13 February 1692Thu Jan 23 1992 17:2610
Metz came close is his assessment:

	Dean adjusted poorly.

If you correct that to:

	Dean is incapable of adjusting


then you begin to get to the crux of the matter.....
17.2965ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDon Robichaud = /Daidbeat DonThu Jan 23 1992 17:305
    >What's to speculate???? the answers as plain as snarz on his face...
    
    Not if you are one a two certain cheats in here.
    
    MrT
17.2966DECWET::METZGER/Slasher welshes on a bet?Thu Jan 23 1992 17:3121
>Metz came close is his assessment:
>
>	Dean adjusted poorly.
>
>If you correct that to:
>
>	Dean is incapable of adjusting

No. he actually did a decent job adjusting defensivly last night. It took him a 
lot longer than it should have but by the end of the 2nd half he had the right
guy on Gogliatta. Of course by then he had 30+ points but the gaem was still
within reach. The 3 pointclangathon and his offensive schema is where he made
little to no adjustments.

all in all it was (another) poor coaching performance. 

Of course the faithful will say they lost because they met a red-hot Gugliatta
and there was nothing they could do about it.....


Metz
17.2967ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDon Robichaud = /Daidbeat DonThu Jan 23 1992 17:3212
    Funny, but last night they ran a halftime interview with Mike
    Francesa on who he saw as the four #1 seeds going into the 
    tourney.  He chose Duke, Arkansas, UCLA, and Indiana.
    
    He went on to say Indiana had some flaws but were showing that
    Bob Knight consistency lately, and that "Knight is the best 
    basketball coach I've ever seen, although (acolyte) Kryczewski
    is closing the gap."
    
    Why didn't he mention Dean Smif'?!
    
    MrT
17.2968somehow it's not as enjoyable...CNTROL::CHILDSthat Sir, is a_inebriate fabricationThu Jan 23 1992 17:348
Or Metz, they may feel that Dean was just trying to instill confidence
in his boys from 3 point land. You know one of the early season losses
he like to take to build character...

 hahahaaa...


17.2969Francessa really breaks it down...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Jan 23 1992 17:4310
    
    > Why didn't he mention Dean Smif'?!
    
    Cuz from my observation Mike Francessa is a true objective_analyst
    (kindred spirit to me and your former self, MrT) on both football
    and basketball, and not a craven panderer a the likes of Dick Vitale 
    or Jim Valvano or Brent Musberger...
    
    glenn
    
17.2970Fire 'n IceSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Jan 23 1992 17:446
 And I believe Rodney Monroe is still on the Atlanta Hawks' bench.
 
 Corchiani was picked up by Orlando after Skiles got hurt but Orlando
 decided to keep him for the year even after Skiles came back.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2971stop Hubie and stop the HeelsHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Jan 23 1992 17:4613
RE: back a few, Monroe is playing for the Atlanta Hawks.

I think the Pack's win showed everyone how to beat this version of the
Tar Heels. Despite the multiple towers and George Lynch and that huge
front line, if you can stop Hubie Davis and to a lesser extent Phelps,
you can play with the Heels. The frontline can't force the action and
certainly showed last night that they can't pick up the offense when they
need to. At least this was the story lasted night.

Also, a noticeable lack of foot speed makes a lot of Dean's pressure
defensive plays ineffective. 

TTom
17.2972Devils, Hogs, Broons, HoosiersSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Jan 23 1992 17:5014
 The other night Dick Vitale picked Duke, Arkansas, UCLA, and Indiana as
 his current Final Four as well.   He also said the All-American backcourt
 right now is Jimmy Jackson and Bobby Hurley.
 
 I'm tellin' ya ... Indiana will make a run this year.  They may not get
 past Duke (oh, wouldn't that be a great coaching matchup!) but they look
 like they're putting it together.   Damon Bailey has truly arrived.   Very
 very smart player.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  Vitale also said that Knight had called him after the Ohio State
 game and agreed with Vitale that he had almost cost them the game by not
 taking a timeout during State's monster runback.
17.2973Hurley 2nd team all ACC maybe!!!JURAN::MCKAYFri Jan 24 1992 15:556
    It may be my bias towards DUKE, but I can't understand people's
    fascination with Hurley.  He's not an All American in my book,
    not even close.  I thought McCaffery(sp) was the better of the
    two.
    
    Jimbo 
17.2974Kind of kid you wanna smack ...SCNDRL::HUNTKiller Ninja Nuns At The OK CorralFri Jan 24 1992 16:0413
I'm not sure either.   Part of it has to do with the fact that he *looks* 
like the classic prototypical gym rat plus he's a coach's kid and he's got 
that New Yawk accent and so on and so forth.  Remember also that Hurley 
"hurled" his dinner during the 1990 champeenship loss to Vegas but came 
back lasted year with a serious vengeance.

I don't necessarily thinks he's the best point guard in the country but I 
will say one thing ... he is an exquisite passer on the break.   He may not 
be the best in a half court set-piece offense but he kills you in 
transition.   Grant Hill ought to have a Bobby Hurley poster in his dorm 
room.   Hill's great on his own but Hurley makes him sublime.

Bob Hunt
17.2975Another year, another loss ...SCNDRL::HUNTKiller Ninja Nuns At The OK CorralMon Jan 27 1992 13:5012
Same old, same old ...  Hoos spin down in second half flames in Chapel Hell.  
Played well in the opening half and took a 2-point lead to the locker room 
but were miserable in the 2nd stanza and the Star Heels took the gift.

Hubie Davis got a T for some flagrant elbows early in the 2nd half and it 
seemed to spark the Heels.   They took a 5-point lead to 10 and then wore 
the Hoos down over the stretch.

Oh, well, they still have to come to C'Ville.   Hopefully, the Hoos will be 
up for the rematch.

Bob Hunt
17.2976Great to be back from the Left Coast !!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jan 27 1992 14:1148
    You're right on how to beat the Heels TTom, but in the case of the Pack
    don't forget to throw in the final killer ingredient: insert a 6-11
    first_round_NBA_stud_who_can't_miss into the lineup and watch him light
    up the scoreboard.  As I told Tom in my magnanimous congratulatory mail
    message, Googs has the best jump shot for a big man in the college
    game since Bob McAdoo.  [BTW, I'm *steel* waiting for BobHunt to send
    me_a similar mainly mail message, given the Hoos 'L' on Saturday ...
    :^(]
    
    I'm not particularly looking forward to our trip north to Charlottesville 
    (*Easy* on the accelerator Dean - you've had a rough enough season already
    ...), but it's worth pointing out (again) that the Cavs are
    significant underachievers this year.  Why?  One simple reason:  Cory
    Alexander, despite his accolades and cockiness, has failed miserably at
    delivering the goods.  It appears to me that Smith is getting
    just as much action at the point now as Alexander, which is a bit of a
    shocker.  (Smith was not highly touted out of HS, but then again,
    neither was Crotty, who turned into a remarkably tough, gritty, and
    clutch PG.)  
    
    Overall I'm pleased to be 14 - 3.  The Notre Dame and NC State losses
    were games where the opposition spread the floor and shot the ball
    extraordinarily well.  Given our slowness afoot inside I'm afraid these
    kind of games will happen.  One very pleasant surprise so far has been
    at the point.  I was a bordering insomniac worried about what happened
    when Phelps left the game (downright paranoid even contemplating him
    getting into foul trouble or [gulp!] injured), but Henrik Rodl has
    turned into a darned handy guy to have around.  Billy Fudgepacker, in
    his usual style of sticking to a prearranged script and then never
    budging from it no matter how much the unfolding events might demand,
    said during the Nova game that the achilles 'heel' of UNC was backup
    PG.  Phelps proceeded to pick up his 4th foul with 15 minutes left in a
    tight contest only to watch the lead grow, ... and grow, ... and
    *GROW*.  By the time he returned, the game was almost in the bag, and
    *then* Villanova made a run.  Would Billy tell us he was wrong?  Yea,
    right.
    
    Anyway I do believe it's time for BobHunt to step forward and much on
    some crow.  Like fer_instance:
    
    1. His insistence that Virginia is NOT underachieving;
    2. His insistence that Villanova is NOT underachieving (Ha ha ha!!!)
    3. His insistence that the Hornets did not error in their
       Johnson > Mutombo analysis.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.2977VLAB::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Mon Jan 27 1992 14:166
    >    turned into a darned handy guy to have around.  Billy Fudgepacker, in
    > his usual style of sticking to a prearranged script and then never
    > budging from it no matter how much the unfolding events might demand,
    
       It's almost like he has some kinda a, a, SYSTEM!!
                                         Denny
17.2979UnbelievableSCNDRL::HUNTKiller Ninja Nuns At The OK CorralMon Jan 27 1992 14:3531
17.2980Unbelievable is right! (Unbelievably disapointing, that is.)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jan 27 1992 14:4418
    re: .-1
    
    Fine to look at the **Micro** Ketch, since it cain skew the casual
    observer into thinking you just might be right.  Alas though, I have
    way too much Intellectual Honesty to go for that.  If you could kindly
    post the following information I think it would clear things up nicely
    though:
    
    1. What's Virginia's W-L record?  (Feel free to include pre-season
       expectations so's we can get an accurate overall picture.)
    
    2. Ditto on #1, but substitute Villanova.
    
    3. What are Johnson's overall stats vs. Mutombo's?  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.2981CNTROL::CHILDSthat Sir, is a_inebriate fabricationMon Jan 27 1992 15:2812
 HAVE YOU NO SHAME???? How can you ask for crow from Sir Robert when you've
 yet to dine after that ND debacle. One you so bold predicted could be worst
 than last year's 35 point blowout.

 While I was always a Mutumbo first man, I've got to say I'm coming around.
 Johnson's stats are dam impressive and consistant. Given that they had
 Giminski and with Mourning, O'Neal, and Laettner probably available this
 year, they took the right man. The Nets and Sacremento screwed up, especially
 the Kings. 

 mike
17.2982VLAB::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Mon Jan 27 1992 15:362
       Crisp is becoming a parody of hisself.
                                  Denny
17.2983Belly upCTHQ2::LEARYLook what they've done to my song,MawMon Jan 27 1992 15:5116
    Chris,
    Where's my "magnanimous congratulatory mail message." ?
    
    A "similar mainly mail message" will do.
    
    "Anyway, I do believe it's time for ""ACC Chris"" to step forward
    and munch on some crow."
    
    Before you asketh others to partake in scavenger-feast,partaketh
    thineself. 
    
    Wail, a plate-full is right here and steamin' Are you hungry?
    
    
    MikeL
    
17.2984I'm munching, but no_doubt I'll be dining alone. :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jan 27 1992 16:0823
    re: Belly up
    
    Why, be glad to MikeL.  See, I always have said that a little humble
    pie is good for a main.  I'll be the first to admit that I've made
    mistakes.  For one, I agreed with BobHunt that Charlotte should've
    taken Johnson over Mutombo.  Now, while this mistake is admittedly
    minor (they're both playing extremely well, just that Mutombo is
    putting up *mega*-numbers; Johnson only extraordinary numbers) it's one
    I have to point out to myself.
    
    In regards to the ND loss, congratulations.  It was, without a doubt, a
    shocking upset.  We got beat, and beat *bad*.  No way should it have
    happened, but when you consider that our defense was *averaging* having
    the opposition shoot < 40%, and ND shot > 60% (!), ... well, let's just
    say this turn of events was (I'm being kind here) *unlikely*.  But,
    a_course, that's why we play the game and not just rely on Vegas
    oddsmakers.
    
    Again I say "congrats"!  Again I say 'munch munch' on that Humble Pie. 
    Now, cain we count on BobHunt doing the same?!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2985As far as I'm concerned, a main's mainCTHQ2::LEARYLook what they've done to my song,MawMon Jan 27 1992 16:139
    Now there's a mainly man for you. ACC Chris has done belly up and
    done the courageous thang. 
    
    BTW, I was probably more shocked than you.
    Danke.
    
    With respect,
    MikeL
    
17.2986UGHANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYBoringDistraughtRobberyVictimMon Jan 27 1992 16:251
    
17.2987This boy needs help ... real bad.SCNDRL::HUNTKiller Ninja Nuns At The OK CorralMon Jan 27 1992 16:5656
17.2988NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Jan 27 1992 17:198
           
    For what it's worth, in a poll of NBA GMs at the mid-season point, 
    Mutombo received 21 votes for Rookie of the Year, Johnson 4, and Smith 1.
    I think most of the gap is based on Mutombo's perceived presence as a
    defensive force...
    
    glenn
    
17.2989January Rook comin' up nexted weekSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Mon Jan 27 1992 17:2910
 And there have been exactly 2 awards given for NBA Rookie Of The Month so
 far this season ... Mutombo won it for November and Johnson got it for
 December.   
 
 Further evidence of the gap between MegaTumbo and ExtraordiLarry ???
 
 I'm sure when confronted by these all-too-real facts, Our Boy Soup will
 up and book hisself another flight to fantasyland.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.2990CNTROL::CHILDSthat Sir, is a_inebriate fabricationMon Jan 27 1992 17:555
small nit Glenn, it's not perceived. Diek does know how to play defense but
so doesn't Larry.

mike
17.2991Ketch again closely examines micro; completely misses macroRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jan 27 1992 18:116
    Thanks, Glenn.  Didn't expect Ketch to fess up and eat crow, but then
    again he seems to think Villanova is the best team in the Big East and
    the Cavs are in the thick of the ACC race.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2992Thought smokin' that stuff was illegal ...SCNDRL::HUNTKiller Ninja Nuns At The OK CorralMon Jan 27 1992 18:2115
17.2993DECWET::METZGER/Slasher welshes on a bet?Mon Jan 27 1992 18:4811
    
    I liked the re-use of the "we ran into a red-hot player" excuse to
    brush off the State victory.....No mention as to the 3 point clangathon
    with 6 minutes let in the game or the poor defensive adjustments by
    the Snuffmeister....
    
    Just the usual baby blew excuse...
    
    
    Metz
    
17.2994 adjustmentHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Jan 27 1992 19:0812
Getting beat by a "red-hot player" is nothing new to Dean. One of the
things that Dean and his system especially won't adapt to is someone
who's hot. 

Sure a lot of people get beat when someone dominates the game. But at
least the coaches attempt to stop the massacre.

Too bad Pistol Pete didn't play in the ACC. Dean would not have adapted.
FWIW, as an aside, his father, Press, coached at State and Pete played
many a pick up game on campus. 

TTom
17.2995Jeff Jones & Rollie Massamino - Coaches of the Year!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Jan 27 1992 19:2610
    > One is riding atop the Big East and the other has beaten two of
    
    Wow, talk about Spin Control!  For the record, Villanova is *below*
    .500 and the Cavs are right at .500.  Both teams had solid expectations
    coming into this season - certainly NCAA Tournament berths were
    expected.  At this point I'd list Villanova as a long shot and Virginia
    (assuming they get hot) as being on the bubble.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.2996rather than ask MtM to move it there.....CST17::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Mon Jan 27 1992 19:498
    ACC CHris,
    
    Methinks the crow you allegedly dined on (here) doesn't count.  We
    do have an official cafeteria ya know.  See note 85.
    
    Hop schlep selps,
    Kev
    
17.2997chickenANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYBoringDistraughtRobberyVictimMon Jan 27 1992 19:525
    Hey Crock-o'-holic, you EVER gonna answer the three batch a sports-
    related fact-based questions that've been outstanding and past due
    from Cap and me since, what, November?!
    
    MrT
17.2998wish I'd've taped itHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Jan 27 1992 20:1818
Instead of showing Ohio St at Seton Hall, at noon yesterday the local
fascist Tar Heel propoganda organ, WBTV, a_unholy owned instrument of
Jefferson Pilot, showed, as usual at that time, the Dean Smith show.
Naturally, I was not totally non-plussed since they were going to show
the State highlights.

Well I'm here to tell you folks that if'n you didn't know better and were
just watching the Dean Show, you'd swear the Heels won the game 104-6.
They showed 2 3 pointers by Gugliotta. Couldn't dwell on that too much
since some of the faithful might be asking how come Dean didn't do
nothing about it. But the rest of it was up and down the court with the
Tar Heels. Little issues like the 9 point run that State made when it was
tied 64-64 were quickly passed by.


It was a classic show after a classic flop. 

TTom
17.2999Runnin' wif da Pack!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Mon Jan 27 1992 20:306
17.3000CAMONE::WAYCuimhnich, 13 February 1692Tue Jan 28 1992 10:1526
>Well I'm here to tell you folks that if'n you didn't know better and were
>just watching the Dean Show, you'd swear the Heels won the game 104-6.
>They showed 2 3 pointers by Gugliotta. Couldn't dwell on that too much
>since some of the faithful might be asking how come Dean didn't do
>nothing about it. But the rest of it was up and down the court with the
>Tar Heels. Little issues like the 9 point run that State made when it was
>tied 64-64 were quickly passed by.


Da Heels.  

 Okay, now if Dean was gonna play NC State, what would da score be?

    Is that Dean all by hisself, or Dean wid da team?

 Dean by himself.

    350-3.  Wid da team, it's 200-10.





Sound familiar?

 
17.3001Da heelz!NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Jan 28 1992 12:0219
         
    > Da Heels.  
    >
    > Okay, now if Dean was gonna play NC State, what would da score be?
    > 
    > Is that Dean all by hisself, or Dean wid da team?
    > 
    > Dean by himself.
    
    Now 'Saw, don't say nuffin', but Chris thinks da Heels are still in da
    tourney.  We know that Dean had his reasons for losing when he did and 
    losin' his temper like dat (CBS prob'ly wanted a better game in the
    Finals and someone needed to stand up ta dose zebras), but it hasn't
    sunk in for poor Chris yet.  Be gentle wid da guy.
    
    [In trance] Snuf-fer...snuf-fer...snuf-fer...
    
    glenn
      
17.3002Huskies on top!CUPTAY::TESSIERTue Jan 28 1992 12:166
To whoever it is that keeps insisting that Villanova is on top in
the Big East, you're wrong.  They were not on top in the Big East
yesterday, and they're even further off the pace after last night's
ass-whupping at the hands of UConn.

Laker_Ken
17.3003CAMONE::WAYCuimhnich, 13 February 1692Tue Jan 28 1992 12:2121
>    
>    [In trance] Snuf-fer...snuf-fer...snuf-fer...
>    


Mrs ACChris, while preparing breakfast, to ACChris:

	You're my Deanster, you're my Deanster, you're my Deanster....


hahahahahahaha....


I like what Marv Levy said, quoting Churchill:

	Defeat, no matter how explained or excused, is still odious.


8^)
'Saw      

17.3004Gotta see the big picture, too ... I admit it.SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Tue Jan 28 1992 13:0828
17.3005is ACCrock EVER gonna answer those questions?ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYBoringDistraughtRobberyVictimTue Jan 28 1992 15:501
    
17.3006Are *U* ever gonna shaddup?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jan 28 1992 16:111
    
17.3007Answer alreadyVLAB::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Tue Jan 28 1992 16:142
       Only one way to Shaddim up Crisp, and you aren't up to it I guess.
                                        Denny
17.3008Oops I just knocked down a beehive!RAVEN1::TURNERA'64ToplessTripower4-SpeedGTOtogo!Tue Jan 28 1992 16:1712
    re -1
    
      You might as well give in!
      This jealousy will just eat at your soul.
      The Deanster is the best!
      You know it.
      Everybody knows it.
      Stop fooling yourself!
      Get with the program.
      If he wasn't the best you wouldn't hate him so.
    
    Rod.
17.3009another RAVEN1HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelTue Jan 28 1992 16:410
17.3010CAMONE::WAYCuimhnich, 13 February 1692Tue Jan 28 1992 16:4927
>      The Deanster is the best!
>      If he wasn't the best you wouldn't hate him so.
    
We don't hate the Deanster.  We pity him.

What we hate is the blind loyalty of the Baby Blew fans who follow him
as if he were Jim Jones, all the while chanting the mantra "Hare-Smithna,
Hare-Smithna" and reciting the litany of excuses:

		- Ran into a team wif a hot player
		- Tired from Finals
		- Injuries


Let's face it, if Dean were so great, then he'd have many more Champeenships
than his paltry gift from Fred Brown....


He ain't the best.  Nope, when it's all on the line in the big game, he's
only best at one thing.

	(hint) GAG, ACHHH, GAG, CoUGH, COUGH.....



Okay, BobHunt, here's that tag,
'Saw
17.3011skeertANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDon't mess with MrT !! [macho]Tue Jan 28 1992 17:275
    ACCrock ain't gonna answer those question-batches cuz if he did
    he knows it'd be like walking into a buzz saw sorta like what 
    happened in 1984 with "The Greatest College Basketball Team Ever."
    
    MrT
17.3012Snuff choked and Terry didn't ...SCNDRL::HUNTKiller Ninja Nuns At The OK CorralTue Jan 28 1992 17:395
1984 ???  Did someone say '1984' ???

NCAA East Regionals ... A sweet sweet cup o' wine.

Bob Hunt
17.3013The questions will be answered soon enough.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jan 28 1992 17:477
    Since neither Virginia, Carolina, or Indiana won the National Title in
    '84, aren't we just talkin' Excellent Losses here?  (i.e. ONLY Titles
    count - oops, make that NCAA Titles - it's written that way in all
    Weasel doctrine.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3014Quote is from Churchill btw...CAMONE::WAYCuimhnich, 13 February 1692Tue Jan 28 1992 17:5611
>    '84, aren't we just talkin' Excellent Losses here?  (i.e. ONLY Titles
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Defeat, no matter how excused or explained, is still odious.


Perhaps we should call them "Odious Losses"....


'Saw
17.3015And who in their right mind would name their kid Odious?NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Jan 28 1992 18:1713
> Defeat, no matter how excused or explained, is still odious.
    
    Churchill was also talking about war, not sports.  In sports, defeat
    need not be odious, imo.  Even Lombardi, as much as his famous quote 
    has been distorted over the years, believed that.
    
    However, Snuff's defeat in 1984 was most certainly odious, malodorous,
    or any of those other big words those guys use on the deodorant
    commercials...
    
    glenn
    
17.3016CAMONE::WAYCuimhnich, 13 February 1692Tue Jan 28 1992 18:3721
>    Churchill was also talking about war, not sports.  In sports, defeat
>    need not be odious, imo.  Even Lombardi, as much as his famous quote 
>    has been distorted over the years, believed that.

Agreed.  BTW, a quote by Lombardi that most people haven't heard was something
along the lines of "We didn't lose, we just ran out of time".

I watched some of the SB replays on ESPN, and I am as impressed with
Lombardi today as I was when I was a kid more than 20 years ago.
A great man, a great motivator, a great teacher.  


>    However, Snuff's defeat in 1984 was most certainly odious, malodorous,
>    or any of those other big words those guys use on the deodorant
>    commercials...
    
Agree wholeheartedly!


'Saw    

17.3017Not quite famous SPORTS quotesRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jan 28 1992 18:391
    "The more you win, the more it hurts to lose."    - ACC Chris
17.3018ACCrock is skeert to answer 3 question-batchesANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDon't mess with MrT !! [macho]Tue Jan 28 1992 18:4810
    No, since we're talking '84 we're talking the "Greatest College Team
    Ever" taking the pipe as the big-butted slow-footed WMD-afflicted
    Dan Dakich took Air Jordan to school.  So long as we're talking '84
    we're talking the most egregious underachievement in a lifetime a 
    egregious underachievement by the Master Underachiever himself.
    
    That's what we're talking.  Not our Excellence so much as your False
    Idol's Egregiousness.
    
    MrT
17.3019Or to put it another way ...SCNDRL::HUNTKiller Ninja Nuns At The OK CorralTue Jan 28 1992 19:475
17.3020Emblazoned in Green and GoldTNPUBS::MCCULLOUGHLindsey IS two!!!Tue Jan 28 1992 19:5810
I, too loved those old Packer teams - there was one team that NEVER choked.

The quote from Lombardi, as he portrayed it in his book "Run to Daylight" 
was NOT:  
              Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing.

It WAS:
	      Winning isn't everything, it's how you react to losing.

=Bob=
17.3021CAMONE::WAYCuimhnich, 13 February 1692Tue Jan 28 1992 20:0227
>The quote from Lombardi, as he portrayed it in his book "Run to Daylight" 
>was NOT:  
>              Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing.
>
>It WAS:
>	      Winning isn't everything, it's how you react to losing.

Yes!

I've been wracking my brain all day to try and remember.   The other
concept of Lombardi's that I really loved was "a single-minded purpose".

Seeing Jerry Kramer out "hunting" on those Lombardi sweeps makes a big man
like me tingle with excitement.  Knowing how he must've been licking
his chops when he got out there and lo-and-behold, it was him, one-on-one
with a wimpy little cornerback....


Lombardi was what winning was all about....



Lombardi is to winning, what Dean is to choking....the BEST.



'Saw
17.3022Oh so TypicalCNTROL::CHILDSthat Sir, is a_inebriate fabricationWed Jan 29 1992 12:2719
 As IU mercilessly wiped the floor with Purdue last night Dicky decide to 
 get into over-rated team. His list #1 Okie St., felt they deserve their
 ranking because of their record but that they had really over-achieved.
 #2 UNC an in typical Hara Smithna fashion he didn't blame Dean but Dean's
 lack of a solid front line. Said Montross was a good player but not great.
 3 - 7 footers and George Lynch and they don't have a front line? WHY NOT?
 Can't the coach figure out how to use that height to his advantage? #3 
 Kentucky again no front line but atleast there's some truth there. After
 the Monster Mash they're weak.

 Over-achieving teams: Syracuse and FSU....


 Speaking of FSU they've beaten UNC and Georgia Tech on the road they're in
 second place in the ACC and yet both teams are rated above them. Go Figure,
 I can't...

 mike
17.3023ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Jan 29 1992 14:4416
    Tellya what, if young Eric Montross were in a Hoosier uniform right
    now he'd be playing at a higher level.  He's not using his body to
    score or to help others score and seems lost in whatever O-system it
    is that Snuffy's got them running.  
    
    Those few centers Bob has had in his 20 years (he's had 3: Downing,
    Benson & Tolbert) became centerpieces of Bob's system implementation.
    Tolbert couldn't shoot so he switched over to a run n' gun offense
    with Ray as the middlemain on the break.  Benson and Downing scored a
    lotta points as the end-main on several plays designed to exploit their
    inside skills.
    
    If Eric were at IU right now he'd be much farther along and wouldn't be
    settling into his niche as a disappointment.
    
    MrT
17.3024Basketball Analysis 101, by ACC ChrisRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jan 29 1992 14:4555
    re: .-1  (North Carolina is overrated)
    
    Of *course* we're overrated.  No big surprise.  Dean's outrageously
    successful track record virtually insures that we'll be overrated every
    year.  Usually when all is said and done though we've put together a
    solid campaign, contended or won the ACC crown(s), won 20+ games, finished 
    in the Top 10, and gone deep into the NCAA Tournament!
    
    I'm really starting to grow tired of The Poop Sheet.  Despite having a
    former Tar Heel (Dennis Wuychik) as the Publisher, they proceeded to
    rip North Carolina basketball apart for about the 12th edition in a
    row.  The current rag reports that we're lifeless, that Henrik Rodl has
    been non-existent, that George Lynch is way too inconsistent, that our
    baseline is *tremendously* slow, that Donald Williams should be playing
    more, and that Phelps and Reese are underachieving!  There wasn't one
    single piece of positive information presented, despite the fact that
    we're currently in the Top 10 in the USA, tied for 2nd in the ACC, and
    have accumulated 14 W's against only 3 L's!
    
    What are my impressions of the team?  Wail, to quote myself again,
    "The Truth lies somewhere between your best games [Wake Forest] and
    worst games [NC State, FSU, Notre Dame]".  Wuychik sez we're lifeless
    (especially on 'D'), and yet opposition FG shooting is very, very low. 
    Still, there's no way we play D with the kind of intensity that Duke
    plays, partly cause we simply don't have the athletes on the baseline
    to play the kind of defense Dean demands.  When the opposition has good
    offensive spacing and is shooting well, we're in trouble.  
    
    Offensively it's a mixed bag.  There are times when Montross appears
    absolutely unstoppable, and other times when he's nonexistent.  Dean
    doesn't seem to have been able to decide who he wants out there,
    Salvadori (who's turned into a fine shot blocker) or Montross.  One
    thing's for sure: against almost all opponents they can't be on the
    floor at the same time cause then we go from slow to tortoise-like.
    Phelps and Reese have shown signs of sticking the outside shot (to give
    the opposition someone else to fear other than the sweet-J-shooting
    Hubie Davis) but remain inconsistent.  Donald Williams?  His J bears no
    resemblence to "sweet", which is a major disapointment.  Perhaps Dean
    erred by forcing him to the point.  'Once a shooter, always a shooter', 
    I always say.
    
    Bottom line is time will tell with this bunch.  We've got Tech on the
    road Sunday, then Duke at the Dome.  Two (2) consecutive L's are
    *easily* within reach.  My hope is that our consistency will improve
    and that Dean will settle on his player rotation.  Despite the nice
    things Salvadori can do, I'd kindof like to see Montross become a
    staple on offense.  Make the defense stop him and accumulate the fouls
    that will result.  With Hubie on the perimeter and Lynch patrolling the
    offensive glass, this might be the only chance for offensive
    consistency we've got, and that becomes *essential* when you're too
    slow defensively to have your defense dominate a game against the
    better teams of the ACC.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3026funny commercialWMOIS::COOK_TSkysurfinonmyBoogieBoardWed Jan 29 1992 15:1315
    I got a great laugh yesterday!  I was listening to the radio, on my way
    to work, when this commercial comes on.  Within the commercial is a
    trivia question!  "Which coach and school has the most consecutive
    appearances in the NCAA tourney?".  Back to the commercial, selling
    some liquidation sale.  Sales over!  Now the answer to the question...
    
    Dean Smif and NC...  Seventeen consecutive appearances which also
    included 47 wins.   But... no mention of the number of titles taken.
    
    Heh, Heh, Heh
    
    
    
    Conan
    
17.3027Not bad, Soup, but the Poop Sheet ain't that wrongSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Wed Jan 29 1992 16:0623
 That's actually a decent rundown on the current Heels, Soup.   
 
 SnuffHype (tm) does indeed inflate Carolina's annual rankings and your
 assessment of the team's offensive "challenges" is reasonably accurate.  
 
 However, your Poop Sheet isn't that far off, either.   Snuff has had to
 resort to humiliating benchings of Lynch and Hubie a couple of times this
 year already so the "lifeless" tag ain't all that unreasonable.
 
 And don't get all worked up over Henrik "Hired Gun" Rodl, either.  Snuff
 himself said lasted week that although Rodl is playing a competent backup
 point guard, he'd hate to see him leading the German national squad in the
 Olympics this summer against the USA mogambo-juggernaut.   Ouch ...
 
 And the baseline is pathetically slow.   Whoops, excuse me, they're "not
 quick" as the Snuffer said.   Montross looks almost robotic out there. 
 Boris Karloff in shorts.
 
 The Heels are as mediocre as we've seen them in a long time.   Hard to
 believe that such a mighty coach with the so-called greatest recruiting
 class of all time can look so ordinary.    Duke will *kill* them right now.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3028RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Wed Jan 29 1992 16:078
    
    re-a few..
    
    	Tied for second....Gosh Crisp! With all that talent your boys
    should be on top of the nation!
    
    B.A._Who's_a_Pack_fan_all_the_way!
    
17.3029Closing in on The Game.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jan 29 1992 16:1531
    > Duke will *kill* them right now.
    
    Ah, right to the nut.  Actually I'm looking forward to playing the
    Nerds and think we'll do surprisingly well against them.  Why?  For
    starters, Dean absolutely, postively *LOVES* going into games as a
    clear underdog.  As rare as it happens, I dare someone to point to a
    time where we've underachieved in these type games.  Deano will have
    the boys ready to play next Wednesday, and will be coaching his
    executive suit off on the sidelines.  
    
    For another thing, I think it's at least *possible* that Duke is
    slightly overrated.  The reason, you axe?  So far their schedule hasn't
    been overly challenging, and the games where they've really slaughtered
    people is when they've been at home.  They probably should've lost to
    Michigan on the road, and they simply haven't had many tough road games
    yet.  Virginia played 'em to a 6-point game at home, and we're better
    than Virginia.
    
    The matchups don't particularly favor us.  They can throw Parks on
    Montross if they need someone to beef up to him.  Phelps absolutely
    *must* play Hurley for all he's worth.  Brian Reese could be the
    wildcard.  He's capable of putting up some points, and he might have to
    if we're to pull the stunner.  Davis and Lynch will both come to play,
    although the Hill bro's will have some input to offer before their
    numbers are posted.
    
    All in all, I think we'll have a better chance against Duke at home
    than Tech on the road this Sunday.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3030They're not invincible but ...SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Wed Jan 29 1992 16:477
 You're right ... Duke's been at home an awful lot lately.   In fact,
 they've only got FOUR home games left all season.
 
 But they are playing at a much higher level than anyone else right now. 
 Florida State should get a rude taste this week.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3031ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Jan 29 1992 17:449
    >I'm looking forward to playing the Nerds and think blah bla-aah...
    
    For anyone new to this note please understand that ACCrock is in
    no way shape or form associated with the University a North Carolina
    (i.e., he's no alumnus).
    
    HTH.
    
    MrT
17.3032Ain't the way I see it.....CSTEAM::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Wed Jan 29 1992 18:3712
    now waitaminute there MorT,
    
    Don't he pay $$$ for that baby_blew newlatter?  Don't he occaisionally
    visit that Dean Catherdral?  Didn't he and his loinal fruit once
    breathe in his royal Deanness's exhaled chicken breath?????
    
    Seems to me he's somehow associated!!!!!!!!
    
    correct?
    
    Kev
    
17.3033Chris - what about K.S.RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOYou were expecting Elmer Fudd??Wed Jan 29 1992 18:5312
    
    You know, I was wondering something.  Last year, a certain ACC noter
    was extoling the virtues of a guard named Kenny Smith, playing for the
    Houston Rockets.
    
    I was wondering why I haven't heard any updates about Kenny SMith from
    this certain noter.  I assumed he'd be on the all-star team - but lo
    and behold, he isn't.
    
    What's up with KENNY SMITH, OH ACC CHRIS!!
    
    JD
17.3034ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Jan 29 1992 18:5312
    He's not legitimately associated in a deep-seated geniuine way 
    as are others a us with *our* squads.  You got your MrT and Tom
    Simpson on the Bob-squad, Hunt on the Hoos, TTom on NC State,
    and so on.  
    
    Now, I'm not saying you have to be a alum to be a fan; I'm only
    saying that when you go beyond saying "we" and "us" and "ours"
    to actually making it sound as if you're playing the games one
    should at least be a alum or the coach's son or next door neighbor
    or *something* fer chrissakes.
    
    MrT
17.3035Oooh, I'd like to smack that kid ...SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Wed Jan 29 1992 18:588
 The closest Soup will ever get to being "in" with the Heel crowd is to
 jump up outta his tube chair and circle his hands together real fast to
 "help" the ref make a walking call ... 
 
 ... Just like that little ants-in-the-pants brat on the end of the Heels
 bench.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3036CROCKMEISTER, STILL WAITING ON THE 3 BATCHES !!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Jan 29 1992 18:581
    
17.3037Old News deserves this Old JokeRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jan 29 1992 19:069
    Ooo, I can see the network is all abuzz over MrT's startling
    revelation.  (ACC Chris ain't_a UNC_alum.)
    
    
    
    NOT!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3038Wahoos climbing back into it ???SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Jan 30 1992 12:5718
 Virginia 82, Maryland 75
 
 Big win, huge win, mogambo win.   Gigantic collective sigh of relief from
 C'ville lasted night.  Terps' Walt Williams scored his 30+ for the sixth
 game in a row but Bryant Stith countered with 29 and senior point guard
 Doug Smith hit some clutch shots driving the paint.  Whew ...  Next up is
 State at State on Saturday afternoon.
 
 Speaking of State, they got their butts handed to them by Mr Rogers lasted
 night.  Rodney had a bunch of highlight jams and Wake put the Pack down
 quickly.
 
 Big one tonight as No. 1 Duke invades Tallahassee to visit the surprising
 'Noles.  Florida State has the studs to give them a good game but Duke is
 too tough and they're playing close to perfect ball right now.   It's on
 ESPN so those who want to see Sgt Laettner play can catch him tonight.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3039Duke 2nd seed in East region!!JURAN::MCKAYThu Jan 30 1992 14:484
    I'll say it.
    		UNC at home will beat Duke!  Just a gut feeling.
    
    Jimbo
17.3040Jimbo, gimme back my 'schrooms!!!!!CST17::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Thu Jan 30 1992 15:141
    
17.3041Beat Duke!JURAN::MCKAYThu Jan 30 1992 15:217
    Kevin finders keepers!!
    
    I just have that feeling.  I'm certainly not a UNC or Duke fan but
    if I had to choose a team to root for I'll go with...............
    whoever is playing Duke 8*)
    
    Jimbo
17.3042no thanks, I'll passCST17::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Thu Jan 30 1992 15:258
    Jimbo,
    
    Isn't that similiar to intentionally hitting your thumb with a hammer
    just for the hail of it?
    
    Me? I'm not into masochisim!
    
    Kev_the_gentle
17.3043Oh SwamiCTHQ1::LEARYBeano:PreventGasBeforeItStartsThu Jan 30 1992 15:487
    Jimbo,
    Weren't you the one who predicted Notre Dame to wallop Penn St??
    That's it, it's a lock. Bet on Duke!!
    8^)
    
    MikeL
    
17.3044Go Pack!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Thu Jan 30 1992 16:208
    
    	O.K. Bob, it's you and me...put your cards on the table, walk
    through the fire!
    
    	I say the Pack by 6!
    
    B.A._who's_making_the_trip_to_Raleigh!
    
17.3045Should be a good one ... see ya back here on MonSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Jan 30 1992 16:4110
 Well, B.A., in true Soupish fashion, I'll predict that State will either
 win by 6 or ... they won't.   This assumes, of course, that the game will
 be played as scheduled and that no interruptions in the space-time
 continuum occur while the game is being played.
 
 Seriously, I've seen enough of Googs' hot streaks and Stith's cold spells
 to do any chest struttin'.   And I never bet with my heart ... even for
 amusement purposes.   'Cause I rarely end up amused.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3046Of course they might end up with Chris Smith.CUPTAY::TESSIERThu Jan 30 1992 16:558
Regarding the Maryland - Virginia game, how good are Walt Williams
and Bryant Stith?  I've heard Williams mentioned as a probable
lottery pick.  Where are these guys likely to go in the draft and
what positions are they likely to play in the NBA?

Thanks,

Ken (who is trying to figure out which guard the Lakers might draft)
17.3047Are you down with UNC?JURAN::MCKAYThu Jan 30 1992 17:037
    Oh yes I picked ND.  I've had plenty of losing picks in here
    but I've also had a bunch of winners, and I'm always on the
    record one way or the other! 8*)  I'd say as a guess I'm above
    50% by not much in this file, of course I always think the
    glass is half full too........
    
    Jimbo
17.3048Williams for sure; Stith a tweenerSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Jan 30 1992 17:3318
17.3049He's got the bloodlines ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jan 30 1992 17:515
    Jon Barry just might have NBA potential.  He's got no conscience
    whatsoever on shot selection, which should help.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3050CUPTAY::TESSIERThu Jan 30 1992 18:123
Thanks for the info.  What about Literial Green's NBA chances?

Ken
17.3051Not in our leagueSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Jan 30 1992 18:156
17.3052JENEVR::FRANCUSMets in '92Thu Jan 30 1992 18:375
    Duke better be careful against Florida State tonight. Somehow I think
    that Florida State will give Duke a tough time.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
17.3053AXIS::ROBICHAUDPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Jan 30 1992 18:415
    	Florida State is loaded with nuclearwidebodystuds.  How the
    Indiana nerds beat them in last year's NCAA tournament is still
    a mystery.
    
    				/Don
17.3054CAMONE::WAYCuimhnich, 13 February 1692Thu Jan 30 1992 19:1215
Point of information:

	What is the difference between a 

		NuclearWideBodyStud

	and a

		WideBodyStud


N-Qwiring minds and all that...


'Saw
17.3055CTHQ1::LEARYBeano:PreventGasBeforeItStartsThu Jan 30 1992 19:192
    One "implodes" towards the basket??
    
17.3056RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Thu Jan 30 1992 19:557
    
    	Go State!!!!  Beat Duke and Beat Va!  Go State!!!
    
    Whadda Team!
    
    B.A.
    
17.3057ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Jan 30 1992 20:1922
    >    Florida State is loaded with nuclearwidebodystuds.  How the
    >Indiana nerds beat them in last year's NCAA tournament is still
    >a beat them in last year's NCAA tournament is still a mystery.
    
    Not much a a mystery at all.  They nuked the poor Hoosiers with 
    all those bulging deltoids and took a 17 point lead despite poor
    shot selection and the Hoosiers got all freaked out with having
    shots jammed back in their faces and all that spped and muscle and
    rebounding and ooooh nooooo these guys are NUKEWIDEBODYSTUDS and
    they're on a roll !!....
    
    .... and then Bob had a chat with his boys during halftime.  Then
    the Hoosiers, still smaller up front and slower overall, went back
    to their game plan and did the ol' pick and weave reverse shot
    selection offense and the weak side help out lane fill defense and
    in a matter of a few minutes the Hoosiers were up by 18...
    
    ... a mere 35 point swing.  Wonder who won *that* halftime, huh?
    
    Such a mystery.
    
    MrT
17.3058NUKEWIDEBODYSTUDS lost to Duke...AXIS::ROBICHAUDPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Jan 31 1992 11:511
    
17.3059CAMONE::WAYCuimhnich, 13 February 1692Fri Jan 31 1992 11:521
Perhaps the Control Rods were in too far....
17.3060CTHQ2::LEARYBeano:PreventGasBeforeItStartsFri Jan 31 1992 12:1310
    Gag...Ack...Cough....More Gag....
    
    Down the stretch. Duke coulda been had. But they came through and
    FSU went into the bit bucket at the end.
    
    Doesn't Hurley look like he coulda been in one of dem Bowery Boys
    movies??
    
    MikeL
    
17.3061Gotta hand this loss to the coachSHALOT::MEDVIDtoo sexy for my carFri Jan 31 1992 12:1813
    Who is the coach at FSU and did he ever play for or take direction from
    Dean Smith?  Less than two minutes to go, down by a basket, and he
    begins to play stall ball?  
    
    Florida State had kept themselves in this game the whole way by pure
    aggression, the likes of which Duke has not seen this year.  Then they
    just changed their game and lost because of it.  They should have kept
    playing their brand of ball, especially with Laettner and Grant Hill in
    foul trouble.
    
    Dumb.
    
    	--dan'l
17.3062CTHQ2::LEARYBeano:PreventGasBeforeItStartsFri Jan 31 1992 12:288
    Yeah dan'l, he couldn't talk with that chicken bone in his throat.
    
    Ya think there's even a remote chance that Duke will be a peekin
    past ND this weekend and looking at dem Heels.
    Nah.  Hope we give a game fer a while.
    
    MikeL
     
17.3063CNTROL::CHILDSWilt,Dean,Clyde,BigBadJohnFri Jan 31 1992 12:308
Actually Dan-l I think they kinda started playing stall ball at the 6 minute
mark or so but I do agree that's the wrong way to play Duke. With Duke's
defense being very agressive you have to be agressive offensively as well
or you're playing right into their hands.

Hurley's good but first team all-American cmon now that's reaching big time
if you ask me. Maybe an honarable mention...
17.3064Valvano is responsible, not Dean. :^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Jan 31 1992 12:5111
    re: dan'l
    
    Pat Kennedy is the FSU coach.  Never tutored under Dean, but he *did*
    learn the game from (ah-hem!) ...
    
    JIMMY V!
    
    Haw!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3065BSS::JCOTANCHFri Jan 31 1992 12:5211
>    Gag...Ack...Cough....More Gag....
>    
>    Down the stretch. Duke coulda been had. But they came through and
>    FSU went into the bit bucket at the end.
  
    Geez, ain't that the truth.  Duke defense sure collapsed on FSU when
    they got near the basket in those last couple minutes.  
    
    
    Joe  
     
17.3066Welcome to the big time, PatSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Fri Jan 31 1992 15:0525
 Not only that but didja hear Dickie V gush all over Pat Kennedy's slow
 down move with 3:00 minutes to go ???   Called it a "brilliant move" and a
 sign that the game was goin' down to the last shot.   Not.   Vitale's
 enthusiasm is sometimes the only thing he's got going for him.   He and
 Kennedy has coincidental brain cramps lasted night.
 
 Krzyzewksi musta been lickin' his chops when he saw Sam Cassell holding
 the ball and not doing anything with it.   Grant Hill's eyes lit up and
 the defending champeens went on a 14-0 run and boom boom out go the
 lights.
 
 Oh, and we can't call Laettner the "Sarge" anymore.  His haircut's growin'
 back to his former pretty boy style.   Regarding Hurley, it was again
 Vitale who said that Hurley and Jim Jackson were the AA backcourt.   I
 still think Hurley is one of the best passers on the break but he ain't
 necessarily one of the best guards in the country.
 
 I do think that Florida State is enjoying the heck outta ACC hoops.  
 They're a great addition to the conference and their fans look like
 they're having a ball.   I like their team, too.   Douglas Edwards is a
 nuke widebody.
 
 Great game ... 37 minutes for the Noles and 40 for the Devils.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3067I used to hate him, I'm enjoying him more this yearCNTROL::CHILDSWilt,Dean,Clyde,BigBadJohnFri Jan 31 1992 17:598
 Bob, I enjoy Vitale's knowledge of the game as well from a fundamental 
 standpoint. He does know his hoops and when he takes the time to freeze
 and explain certain plays or principals it's good and better than his 
 enthusiasm. It's his strategies that suck and are probably the reasons
 why he announces instead of coaching.

 mike
17.3068Hunt on VitaleSCNDRL::HUNTKiller Ninja Nuns At The OK CorralFri Jan 31 1992 18:1613
I'm lukewarm on Dickie V.  I admit he brings an incredible amount of 
enthusiasm to the game and it can be infectious.  Although by now I wish 
someone would tell him that he should stick with an acronym like "PT" or 
"TO" or he should just use the full words.  But he constantly says both as 
in ... "Better get a TO timeout, babeeee" or "He's gettin' the PT playing 
time, babeeee".   One or the other, Dickie, one or the other, babeeee.

And yes he does know the X's and O' and the recruiting jungle extremely 
well but you're right, he wouldn't know a coaching tactic to save his life 
some of the time.   I was amazed lasted night how he absolutely *LOVED* Pat 
Kennedy's stall move and how it backfired so badly on both of them.

Bob Hunt
17.3069My uncalled for 2 centsRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Jan 31 1992 18:2724
    Easy on Dickie.  At least he had the guts to stick his neck out and
    side with Kennedy's decision.  It woulda been better if he'd admitted
    after the fact that things didn't work out though.  (Doesn't necessarily 
    imply it was a bad coaching move - sometimes you make the right move and
    things don't work out, and vice versa.)
    
    What bothers me a whole lot more than this kinda thing are:
    
    1. Announcers who won't stick their neck out and second guess the
       coaching decisions being made.  (Pro sports are almost always
       guilty of this, no_doubt because the Business of SPORTS had mega-say
       in what goes over the airwaves, and they don't take criticism of
       the product in any way, shape, or form too kindly.  You get a far
       greater increase in the Fresh Air department from the colleges ...)
    
    2. Announcers who stick to a prearranged script and won't vary from it
       now matter how much the actual action might demand.  (i.e. Billy
       Fudgepacker, who I personally think is as pompous an announcer
       as exists on television.  Guy flunked out badly as a coach, yet 
       has absolutely ZERO humbleness to him, ala Vitale and numerous
       others.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3070CNTROL::CHILDSWilt,Dean,Clyde,BigBadJohnFri Jan 31 1992 18:4115
 The thing that gets me about "better get a TO Babe-e-e" is 90% time he's
 looking at the bench and can see the coach is about to do just that and he
 acts like it a crystal ball prediction...

 Chris you just like the man cause he never will in no shape, way, or form
 criticize the Deanster...Blame the players yes but Deanster oh no. Maquire's
 also another Haras Smithna....

 T, I like Len Elmore's work in the college game. He calls them as he sees
 them and he does a bit of teaching as well. Good thing he got away from
 the diseased NBA....

 my favorite though is Rafferty cause he's the least serious of the bunch
 yet still calls a good game.  
17.3071Tough to criticize a HoF legend. :^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Jan 31 1992 18:577
    re: Childs
    
    I've yet to hear an announcer lay into Dean, no matter how objective
    his reputation.  You say you like Rafferty?  He gushes pro-Dean!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3072JENEVR::FRANCUSMets in '92Fri Jan 31 1992 19:044
    Good game between FS and Duke. Too bad the outcome wasn't different.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
17.3073CNTROL::CHILDSWilt,Dean,Clyde,BigBadJohnFri Jan 31 1992 19:068
 everybody has their weak points this is Rafferty's. It's hard to critcize a
 HOFer for sure especially one who has a squeaky clean rep but it's not im-
 possible. It's just that people will look at him like he's got rocks in his
 head but we all know differently. The record is mighty but so aren't the chokes.
 But hey that's not Dean's fault it's the players. BS!!!

 Francesca has let the cat out of the bag we can only hope others follow suit.
17.3074ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Jan 31 1992 19:2232
    Bill's name is Raftery, not Rafferty.  Cain't you guys handle Iro-
    American names?!  I like Raftery a lot, he knows the game, has a 
    low key style, and has a cool personality you'd expect from a Irish
    guy from Joisey.
    
    I have trouble criticizing Dickie V. cuz he was the only writer
    with the guts to report that the whole thing on Bob pulling his
    team from the Russian game wasn't true (they were ordered from the
    court by the refs).  Trouble is, it was in the Basketball News and
    few people read that.
    
    Dickie looked the fool during the Ohio State game.  He to this day
    insists that Bob screwed up and claims Bob agreed with him, but Bob
    waited until the Hoosiers were 5 down, which is his habit, then calls
    the TO and two minutes later IU is winning by 9 and cruised to a
    victory.  IU fans have seen that script for 20 years and it worked 
    against the Buckeyes to a "T" (luv that expression) and yet Dickie
    insists Bob got lucky.
    
    Fudgepacker *is* awful.  Example?  (Luv that USA Today style, too).
    When he screamed for 5 minutes that Snuffer was gonna get slapped with
    a "T" (luv *that* term too) and thrown from the game, it happens, and
    then he gets all indignant about how the refs were wrong.
    
    Then so were you Fudgepacker babeee !!!
    
    Re: pro vs. college
    
    Everybody makes it sound like the same thing doesn't happen in the NBA.
    Intentional fouls, 20 second time outs, I don't see the difference.
    
    MrT                                                                
17.3075BSS::JCOTANCHFri Jan 31 1992 19:4113
    I've always liked Vitale.  He sure knows how to play the college
    crowds.  His act might be getting old, but I still find him pretty
    funny - I'll watch a game I don't even care about just to listen to
    him.  
    
    I love it when he imitates the player talking: "Get that outta here,
    baaabeee! You can't bring the rock in the lane on me, I'm an
    All-American!"
    
    And then there's his "Freeze It!"  I'm rollward when he uses that one.
    
    
    Joe
17.3076DUGROS::ROSSBuchanan in an upsetSat Feb 01 1992 01:0232
    A question for ACC Chris {maybe one he can answer :-)}:
    	
    	Would you trade Eric Montross for Rodney Rogers?
    	""     ""  ""   ""     ""      "" Grant Hill?
    	""     ""  ""   ""     ""      "" Cherokee Parks?
    	""     ""  ""   ""     ""      "" Jamaal Mashburn?
    	""     ""  ""   ""     ""      "" Damon Bailey?
    
    Just wondering....  be objective, please.
    
    ====
    
    I wish you guys had the chance to hear one of Dean's postgame radio 
    shows... I was fortunate enough to hear Dean's comments after an easy
    win over Maryland two weeks ago.   Dean is brought into the interview
    room and then there's kind of a hush on the radio.  Finally, one brave
    journalist stammers "Uh, Coach, you didn't start Hubert Davis tonight.
    I'm sure you had an excellent reason for that.  Could you share it
    with us?"  And Dean says "Well, Hubert didn't grade out very well in
    practice this week."       Ugh...  :-(  
    
    I see he's not starting Montross some games now.... In my opinion, if
    he's the best soph center in the country, he should be on the floor
    30 minutes a game.  
    
    I'm also getting REAL tired of watching Dean beg for every call from
    the opening tap to the end of the game.   I watched Bob Knight for four
    years in Indiana and he never was that bad.  Knight would explode and 
    sit down.   Dean stamps his foot and stands around pointing to every 
    imagined infraction he sees... and then the lemmings on the bench get
    into the act.   Ugh squared! 
    
17.3077Go Jackets!WMOIS::REEVE_CSat Feb 01 1992 12:587
    After Sunday's game, UNChris will want to trade Eric for Matt Geiger.
    Got tickets Chris? There's gonna be a war in the Big Nipple on Sunday!
    
    For you ABC viewers, watch Malcolm Mackey. He's a widebody who has held
    his own against Okie State's Houston, Gugliotta, Mashburn and others.
    
    GTChris
17.3078JENEVR::FRANCUSMets in '92Sat Feb 01 1992 21:355
    I need a list of the starting 5 for NC's NCAA Championship team in
    1982. Jordan, Worthy, Dougherty??, and ...
    
    The Crazy Met
    
17.3079And one of the refs was "D Smith", too.SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Mon Feb 03 1992 13:2735
 1982 Tar Heels ... Sam Perkins, James Worthy, Michael Jordan, Jimmy Black,
 and Matt Doherty.
 
 Nice win for the Wahoos on Saturday at Reynolds against the Wolfpack. 
 What a difference a week makes !!!   Bryant Stith scored 30 points and
 Corey Alexander added 22 and the Hoos held off a furious Pack comeback for
 an 80-69 road win.   
 
 Hoos had their biggest advantage in the first half at 43-17 and they
 looked *terrific* especially Alexander.   But Les Robinson screamed a bit
 at halftime and the Pack made their run cutting it to 5 points three
 different times late in the 2nd half ... but Stith stuck a clutch trey and
 the Hoos shot their free throws and the Pack ran outta gas.   Stith is now
 10th on the all-time ACC scoring list and is putting together his 3rd
 straight All-ACC First Team season.   Maybe he does have an NBA future ???
 
 On a humorous side note ... the local Charlotte paper has been filling
 some ink space the last week or so debating the hypothetical outcome of a
 fictional game for state bragging rights between the Charlotte Hornets and
 the Duke Blue Devils.   
 
 Yesterday, they ran a complete box score and analysis of such a game ...
 Hornets killed the Devils 132-99 as Larry Johnson and Kenny Gattison
 roamed free underneath.    Grant Hill and Christian Laettner played well
 but Muggsy Bogues harrassed Bobby Hurley all game long.
 
 Game was "played" under NBA rules but it was in Cameron on Duke's campus. 
 The Dookies shouted "Over-Rated" at the Hornets but it really was no
 contest.  Funniest little piece of the box score was at the very bottom
 where it listed Technical Fouls - 2 (Krzyzewski, JR Reid).   Rollward.
 
 I'll clip the box score out of the paper and post it here tomorrow. 
 Interesting idea.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3080For the Cavs, the win @ State was very large.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 03 1992 15:3640
    re: .3077 (Chris)
    
    Haw haw haw!!!!  If there was every a moment for a SPORTS noter to
    belly_to_the_bar and eat major crow, now is the moment.  For the
    record, I watched Geiger and Mackey.  Watched 'em sit on the bench for
    long stretches!  *Both* were awful, as a column in todays Atlanta
    Journal correctly points out.  Neither was a factor.  Matter_a_fact,
    Ivano Newbill was far and away Tech's best big man yesterday.  (James
    Forrest put together a terrific game - he'll knock down the baseline
    jump shot 'til the cows come home ...)
    
    Anyway nice road 'W' for the Heels.  No sense calling it a "big" win,
    cause anytime you win an ACC game on the road at this time of the year
    it's "big".  (At least until the next "big" game, which in the case of
    North Carolina takes place this Wednesday night at the Smith Center.)
    
    re: UVa vs. NC State
    
    As I've stated before, when Tom Gugliotta is at his best he reminds me
    of my all-time favorite Carolina player, Bob McAdoo.  Swished J, Rebound, 
    Swished J, Handle the Ball, Swished J, Swished J, Play_a_little_D, 
    Rebound, Swished J.  However, at his worst ...
    
    And his worst was what we got in the first half Saturday.  MAN WAS HE
    BAD!!!  PEEYEEWWW!!!!  Talk about stinkin' up the joint.  Clanged
    jumper, clanged jumper, stupid foul, clanged jumper, more stupid
    fouls, and grab some pine!  UGLY.  VERY UGLY.  No way is he ACC PoY. 
    Not with 4 straight State losses, during which he's been far less than
    stellar.  
    
    Virginia now stands at 10-8.  They've got a home game against VaTech,
    which *should* put them at 11-8 at the exact halfway mark of the ACC
    campaign.  If they replicate their 4-4 1st half results, they'll finish
    at 15-12 and really have to make hay in the ACC Tourney to get invited
    to The Dance.  Five (5) of their remaining ACC tilts are at home
    though, so I look for a 5-3 finish, putting them squarely on the bubble
    heading into the ACC Tourney.  They might just squeeze in ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.30819-7 should go; 10-6 for sureSCNDRL::HUNTWelcome back, Calvin &amp; Hobbes !!!Mon Feb 03 1992 16:1137
17.3082My view...RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Mon Feb 03 1992 16:1622
    .o2 about the game Sat..
    
    
    	No Defense! No boards! No EXPERIENCE!!!!  Stith is so smooth! man,
    is he good!
    
    	Goog, was way off, but then again the whole team was. It was a fun
    second half, but fell too short! I had fun though.
    
    	State is so inexperienced it is pathetic. But it time...who knows?
    
    Seen a good shirt at the campus...
    
    			Friends,
    		       Don't let 
    		     Friends go to
    	               CAROLINA!
    
    Ha!
    
    B.A.
    
17.30839-7 would worry me, but 10's a lock.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 03 1992 16:2118
    Basically correct Ketch, but ya cain't ignore the fact that the Cavs
    logged a horrid non-conference record.  Hence it's not enough to say
    9-7 is probable - I'm not so sure.  I think at 9-7 they might still need
    at least a first round 'W' in the tourney.  
    
    re: Googs
    
    Congratulating Virginia's 1st half defense against Gugliotta would be
    very Dean-like thing to do, but I can't.  Seemed like on almost all his
    missed shots he had a good look at the basket.  Also there's no excuse
    for a player of his magnitude and importance picking up such silly
    fouls on his home court.
    
    BTW Ross, I never miss Dean's post-game radio show.  Local AM station
    1550 here in Atlanta is on The Tar Heel Sports Network!  :^) :^) :^)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3084More ...SCNDRL::HUNTWelcome back, Calvin &amp; Hobbes !!!Mon Feb 03 1992 16:5733
17.3085StinkerWMOIS::REEVE_CTue Feb 04 1992 23:1620
    Shoulda known I'd put a bigtime jinx on Geiger and Malcolm. They
    stunk bigtime. Not too unusual for Geiger, but Mackey has been their
    most consistent player all year. Didn't help that the baby blews
    brought in the Clemson refs to help on the road no less. They
    definitely underachieve though, this UNC teamis not real scary.
    
    Tech has a habit in recent years of slumping in the middle of the
    season. They are better than they are currently showing and better
    recoup quickly or they won't make much of a show in the post season.
    For hat it's worth (probably not much), Smith outcoached Cremins at a
    crucial time- at the beginning of the second half- when the game was
    lost. His box and one shut dwn Barry and Cremins didn't adjust. Or
    maybe the players didn't respond, whatever, Tech played a lousy game
    and didn't deserve to win. Montross still fails to impress. Looks an
    awful lot like a future NBA benchwarmin stiff.
    
    Oh well, since UNC has no home court advantage in the Yawn Dome, maybe
    revenge can be had.
    
    GTC  
17.3086Day Dream BelieverRAVEN1::TURNERA'64ToplessTripower4-SpeedGTOtogo!Wed Feb 05 1992 00:451
    RE. -1
17.3087Devils and Heels at the Yawn DomeSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Wed Feb 05 1992 13:349
 Big one tonight ... Duke at North Carolina.   It is February so Snuffy may
 find a way to pull off the mild upset but methinks Grant Hill and company
 might be just a tad too quick for the aptly-named Tar Heels.
 
 Bryant Stith was named ACC Player Of The Week for lasted week's stellar
 efforts against Maryland and NC State.   One of the Clemson kiddie-kats
 got the ROW ... Devin Gray ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3088????CST17::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Wed Feb 05 1992 13:555
    Is it on ESPN?  What time does the game start?
    
    Deen to wonk,
    Kev
    
17.3089CNTROL::CHILDSRodney Dangerfields &gt;&gt; The Dream TeamWed Feb 05 1992 14:084
 yes Kev 9:00 tonight on ESPN after the SJU/BC game which starts at 7:00...

 mike
17.3090Duke vs. Carolina. College hoops *at its very best*!!!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Feb 05 1992 15:4157
    re: YawnDome
    
    Good one.  Accurate too.  Tonight the place will be loud (the one game
    a year when the place gets legitimately noisy) but this may offer no
    home court advantage since our players will probably be just as
    intimidated as the Nerds!  [:^(]  I'm sure the fat cats will still
    manage to arrive late (despite the 9:00 start), so don't be surprised
    if the DD looks 50% full at tipoff.  [:^(]  
    
    re: TheGame
    
    Should be fun.  We were the last team to beat Duke (that game was one of
    those inconsequential ones that Dean always manages to win - the ACC
    Championship Game) and it would be terrific to do it again.  
    
    Don't hold your breath though.  Duke *should* win this game.  They're
    better than us, have everybody important back from last year, have
    better athletes, better outside shooting, ... you get the picture.  A
    'W' would be a huge upset.  I won't rule out the possibility, but,
    again, I'm not holding my breath.
    
    Things to watch for:
    
    o Last year Dean stated after the DD 'L' to the Nerds that his pride got
      in the way of playing more zone.  I don't really believe this - Dean 
      loves to take credit for defeats and accept none for wins - but it'll be
      interesting to see how much zone we play.  
    
    o The System vs. 1-Game Preperation.  Dean has made a career of not
      preparing very much (relatively speaking) for the opposition.  Play
      'The System' and let the opponent adjust, not vice versa.  However
      there are times when this approach is adjusted.  For example, against
      Oklahoma in the NCAA's 2 years ago Dean made *major* adjustments,
      like playing alot of zone, slowing tempo, calling lots of plays from
      the bench, etc.  Should be interesting to see how much of pure System
      takes place tonight and how much game improvising Dean does.  (I'd
      expect more of the former, cause of practically no preperation time
      for this game.  Dean stated in his post-game show against Tech that 
      he promised the players with 7 minutes to play in the game that if
      they won he'd give 'em a day off.  Also since we're playing at home
      I'd expect to see typical Carolina defense, offense, substitutions,
      etc.)
    
    o Duke's athleticism vs. Carolina's size.  This is the most glaring
      difference between the two (2) teams.  They've got athletes coming
      out the wazoo.  We're slow by comparison.  We simply *must* play our
      guts out on the defensive end.  A solid 40 minutes is necessary,
      and so far this year we've rarely strung more than 20 minutes of
      in-your-face defense together.  Offensively I'd look for us to go
      inside early and often.  Duke ain't gonna play no zone, which helps
      us.  Take it inside.  Power basketball.  Try to get them in some foul
      trouble.  When the inside game gets going, Hubie will need to stroke
      from the outside.  These are the ingredients necessary for a Carolina
      upset.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3091RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Wed Feb 05 1992 16:498
17.3092hmmmm.....CST17::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Wed Feb 05 1992 17:2010
    
    Great Line ACC Chris
    
    "They've got athletes coming out their wazoo, we're slow by comparison"
    
    What ever happened to that great recruiting class?????
    
    :^)
    Kev
    
17.3093Question & AnswerANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Feb 05 1992 17:248
    Bob-acolyte Quinn Buckner was on the radio here (he's the Timberwolves'
    color analyst) and was axed whom he thought was most likely to beat
    Duke on a neutral court.  He answered...
    
    "North Carolina.  They have the big men, the forwards, the overall 
    talent level, and the depth to beat Duke on their own terms."
    
    MrT
17.3094Thoughts...SHALOT::MEDVIDthe illusion is deepWed Feb 05 1992 17:279
    From the looks of the Florida State game, Duke has a tough time against
    quick, good-passing teams.  I don't think Carolina really qualifies at
    either.   But you never know if the Clemson refs will be working for
    Dean in his own home.
    
    If it's close, UNC will win...unless Laettner is on the line at the end
    of the game.
    
    	--dan'l
17.3095ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Feb 05 1992 17:3019
    (that game was one of those inconsequential games that Dean always
    manages to win - the ACC Championsip game).
    
    For once we agree CrispyCritter.
    
    I assume this cuz a all the extremely consequential games (National
    Championship games, Final Four games, Excellent Eight games, early
    round games against inferior talent, etc.) that Dean has managed to
    lose.
    
    So you surely are mocking udderly meaningless money-grubbing made-for-
    TV spectacles like the ACChampionsip Game, which is meaningless enough
    for Snuffy to manage to have won.
    
    Refresh my memory, who, if anybody, wins the Almost Clost Championship,
    the regular season Champ or the "tournament" Champ or some admixure of
    the two or a vote or a straw draw... who?
    
    MrT
17.3096Not the way Dean or I like it, but it's a simple fact.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Feb 05 1992 17:357
    re: .-1
    
    The winner of the ACC Tournament is the ACC Champion.  Period. Fini.  End 
    of discussion.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3097DYPSS1::ROPERBRoper DTN-433-4336Wed Feb 05 1992 17:4111
    MrT, I believe the tournament winner is the "League Champion".  Also,
    the tournament winner gets the automatic bid to the NCAA's.  
    
    I really like the conference tournaments.  However, I believe that the
    winner of the regular season should be the League Champion.
    
    Remember 'T, the conference tournaments may bring in alot of money for
    the shools, but the fans love them also.  Vewy, vewy exciting.  Too bad
    the Big Ten hasn't yet joined the 20th century.
    
    WILDCAT
17.3098choke early?HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Feb 05 1992 17:5113
For all those that wish it weren't true, tough. The winner of the ACC
Basketball championship, the team that gets the banner and has their name
on the trophy and all that good stuff is the tournament winner.

And what's this nonsense about Dean always wins?

Whattabout the years 1983 through 1988, about a dozen number 1 NBA draft
picks couldn't win the tournament?

I guess it's possible they choked before they got there, maybe that's the
ticket.

TTom
17.3099More info needed ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Feb 05 1992 18:1413
    re: choke early? [-1]
    
    Dean's won a whole lotta both TTom, so what's your beef?  
    
    While your explaining, please give insight into:
    
    o NC State's elfoldo since beating UNC.  (They lost their FIFTH in
      a row to Marquette last night ...]
    
    o UNC vs. Nerds tonight
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3100ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Feb 05 1992 18:2624
    These geeky tournaments are redundant, and they are much less valid
    as a way to choose the year's best conference team than a round-robin
    home and away schedule.  That much is for certain.
    
    Given that, then what's the purpose of the conference tournament?  You
    can talk all you want about money and watching the best teams play a
    third time, but there's a downside: The fact that the regular season
    is reduced to a mere warmup to the conference tourney.
    
    We in the Big10 (except for the money-grubbing Commish Delany who's
    from the Almost Close and is on his way out for blundering incompetence
    anyway) like it just the way it is.  
    
    Every Big10 game has import, a certain finality, as to who's gonna win
    the Title and who's might get an NCAA bid.  Each road win against a 
    tough opponent is savored, each home loss despaired.  Fans spend two 
    months thinking back to who has the most tough games left, the most
    road games left, and so on.
    
    Our way is kind a like a baseball season.  No excuses.  
    
    Your way is kind a like the NHL.  No integrity.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.3101ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Feb 05 1992 18:337
    Stated another way: The Big10 forgoes a weekend of gratuitous 
    redundant hoops for a two month season that's delicious with
    suspense and complexity; everybody else does the reverse.
    
    Bah.
    
    Big10 MrT
17.3102FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Wed Feb 05 1992 18:3710
    T, you forget the Ivy League which has never had a post-season
    tournament (and in fact has a super-meaningful regular season since
    only one team from the league usually goes) and the Pac-10, which used
    to have a post-season tournament and has now dropped it now that
    they've seen the light.
    
    I don't believe a post-season tournament should be necessary and its
    primary purpose is the almighty dollar sign.
    
    John
17.3103except for Mike Heiser a courseANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Feb 05 1992 18:394
    The Pac10 dropped it?  Cool.  I've always like the Pac10 and now
    I know why.
    
    MrT
17.3104AXIS::ROBICHAUD1960-69Celtics &gt; 1960-69LakersWed Feb 05 1992 18:414
    	For once I agree with MorT.  These tournaments reward mediocrity
    and he makes a good analogy with the NHL, unfortunately.
    
    				/Don
17.3105Everybody likes it, so why drop it?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Feb 05 1992 19:0022
    No_doubt the Pac10 bagged their end-of-season tourney cause nobody
    gave a crap about it.  The last decade or so hasn't exactly been kind
    to this extraordinarily widely scattered bunch.  Hence the almight
    dollar demanded that the tourney be dropped due to the high expense of
    gathering all the schools together combined with the fact that nobody'd 
    show up or watch on the tube even if they did!
    
    Such is NOT the case in the ACC, where the ACC Tournament is widely
    attended (still the toughest ticket in college basketball this side of
    the Final 4) and watched.  The players like it too, which is mightily
    important to me and Dean though realistically meaningless when compared
    with the bucks issue.  
    
    I do agree with MorT that the winner of the regular season should be
    "ACC Champion".  Dean has lobbied unsuccessfully for this (Valvano did
    too) but, like most of the significant and sensible suggestions coaches
    make, has fallen on deaf ears.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
17.3106FSOA::JRODOPOULOSIntl. Business SupportWed Feb 05 1992 19:017
    T,
    
    Did Soup ever answer your questions to your satisfaction ?
    
    Just curious,
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
17.3107FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Wed Feb 05 1992 19:0514
    I'm against all forms of post-season conference tournaments because
    other than raising lots of money for the schools (ie, you gotta be a
    big contributor to get the tickets) and perhaps getting teams used to
    the rigors of tournament play, I don't think they prove anything that a
    regular season round-robin schedule doesn't prove.
    
    It used to make sense in the old ECAC hockey league because not all
    teams played all other teams.  For example, the Ivy League hockey
    schools didn't play all of the non-Ivy schools and it was the only way
    to clearly figure out who the two Eastern reps should be.  They've
    outlived their usefulness in all sports and from a purist viewpoint
    should be eliminated - but they have other purposes now.
    
    John
17.3108CAMONE::WAYCuimhnich, 13 February 1692Wed Feb 05 1992 19:1643
Does ACC Chris remind you guys of the dudes who appear on the 
Bob Swerski show prior to Da Bears games.....



	Swerski (or more properly an indiginous NC name) is the moderator.


	Mod:  So, da Heels play Duke tonight.  Gennelmen, what are
	      your predictions?

	Baby Blew 1:   Da Heels, 443 to 8.

	Baby Blew 2:   Da Heels, but I like them 503 to 2.

	ACC Chris:     Da Heels, but the team just came off final
		       midterm protological exams, so I'll say
		       335-65.


	Mod:  Whoa, Chris, so little faith dere.  Now, if Dean was
	      playing Duke, who do you like?

	Baby Blew 1:  Is Dean playing with da team, or by himself?

	Mod:  By himself.


	Baby Blew 1:  Da Dean, 110-78

	Baby Blew 2:  Da Dean, only it's closer 99-80.

	ACC Chris:    Is Dean trying to play the Four Corners by himself?

	Mod:	      No.

	ACC Chris:    Da Dean, 83-14





'Saw
17.3109In defense ... again !!!SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Wed Feb 05 1992 19:1852
 We've been down this road so many many times before ...
 
 No big deal.  The ACC Tournament's best days are long behind it.   The
 death of the tournament can be marked from the 1980 season when the cap on
 the number of teams from any one conference was lifted completely.   Since
 then, it has been and still is a spectacle played for the enjoyment of the
 fans and bragging rights of the teams involved ... and a little cash.
 
 The ACC regular season is *NO* less important now than the Big Ten or Pac
 10 round-robin regular seasons.   The ACC plays the exact same round-robin
 format and, _prior_ to the tournament, a very clear picture of who's going
 dancing almost always emerges ... just like the Big Ten and Pac 10.
 
 Take lasted year, for example ... Was there ever any doubt whatsoever that
 the top 3 regular season finishers (Duke, North Carolina, and Wake Forest)
 were going Dancing ???   Answer is hell no.   Even Ga Tech, who lost their
 first-round ACC tournament game, was a near-lock to go ... and they went.  
 NC State and Virginia were less certain but they won first-round games and
 sealed their bids.   Thus, the ACC regular season round-robin served to
 position the top 5 or 6 teams in the conference *EXACTLY* as they would
 have been slotted ... even without a tournament.
 
 Does anyone doubt that Duke, Carolina and Florida State are going this
 year ???   I don't think so.  Why ???  Because they're racking up regular
 season in-conference wins in a round-robin home-and-away format.   What an
 amazing concept !!!
 
 The only real suspense left to the ACC Tournament is the off-bubble, huge
 underdog team somehow getting hot for three days and crashing the Big
 Dance.  To the best of my knowledge, that has happened just once since
 1980 ... In 1983, when Valvano's Cinderella Wolfpack won the ACC
 Tournament and got an invite to the NCAA's that they probably wouldn't
 have gotten otherwise.  And all they did with that "gift" was win the Big
 Enchilada.   The 1983 ACC Tournament was prelude to one of the *BEST*
 sports stories of the entire decade.   What's so bad about that ???
 
 And in response to the "money-grubbing" charge, I will repeat what I said
 lasted year after attending the tournament here in Charlotte.  No one who
 attended had the slightest little objection to the cost.   This was easily
 one of the richest crowds this poor boy has *ever* seen at any sporting
 event.   Ever.   Wall-to-wall Benzes, Beamers, and Jags.  Beluga and Donny
 P on the white linen tablecloth.   And we're not talking yuppies here. 
 We're talkin' *OLD* Southern money and gobs of it.
 
 I'm used to T's holier-than-thou diatribes against the ACC Tournament.  
 And, for the record, I don't have a problem with the Big Ten's way ... the
 January and February Big Ten games *ARE* exciting.  No doubt about it.  
 But I also think that his annual bitch-and-moan covers up some amount of
 envy at the ACC ... I mean, look how much *EASY* loot the Big Ten tosses
 away every year by *NOT* having a tournament ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3110Small Conferences really love tournamentsSHALOT::MEDVIDthe illusion is deepWed Feb 05 1992 19:4011
    Tournament's are great for the small conferences.  For instance, in
    1985, Miami of Ohio won the Mid American Conference with Ohio
    University right on its heels.  Both teams were upset in the MAC
    conference tournament and Kent State was the "official" MAC rep.  Miami
    and Ohio U were invited anyway.  
    
    At least I think that was the way it all happened.  I was on a 24-hour
    drunk that week because I was gradjitating early and was done with
    college as soon as I passed my Introduction to Leisure final.
    
    	--dan'l
17.3111DYPSS1::ROPERBRoper DTN-433-4336Wed Feb 05 1992 20:0712
    Great note Bob Hunt!  WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE???  If said
    conference wants a tournament at the end of the year to make some
    bucks, SO BE IT!  It is quite enjoyable for the fans.  It in no way,
    shape, or form (NWSOF) diminishes league play.  Pure, unadulterated
    HOGWASH MrT.
    
    All you're talking about is semantics T.  You still have to play da
    stinking games.  Furthermore, the league games are crucial to teams as
    that greatly determines their power rankings which are heavily used
    with teams on the bubble for the big dance.
    
    Still trying to shed light on 'T - WILDCAT
17.3112RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Wed Feb 05 1992 20:4512
    Chris,

    	No one said that State had the best recruiting class in the nation,
    but State beat the team that supposably did...
    
    	The tournament is for $$$ purposes only? No way! I get enjoyment
    out of it every year. Rooting for the underdogs, finding new heros to
    watch nexted year and TRYING to get tix to the tournament.
    
    
    B.A.
    
17.3113U Can't Touch ThisSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Wed Feb 05 1992 20:4668
 The ACC Tournament used to be the absolute HOTTEST weekend on the
 pre-Dance college hoops calender.   
 
 Prior to to 1975 (I believe), the NCAA's took only the conference champ
 and the Tournament was a true *death* struggle then.   There are two very
 notable Tournaments from this time period ... 
 
 There was the 1970 Tournament that saw the very highly ranked and
 top-seeded South Carolina Gamecocks blow a 42-39 loss to the Wolfpack.  
 Despite their unbeaten conference record and No. 2 or 3 national ranking,
 they went to the NIT instead.   Bobby Cremins was on this Gamecock team
 and actually had a late-game turnover that helped blow it.
 
 And the 1974 Game-For-The-Ages that saw top-ranked NC State (David
 Thompson, Tom Burleson, Monte Towe, Tim Stoddard) beat Top 5 Maryland (Tom
 McMillen, Len Elmore, John Lucas) 103-100 in overtime.  The Twerps went to
 the Big Apple and the Pack went on to beat Walton and end UCLA's reign.
 
 Between 1975 and 1980, the ACC could send only 2 teams to the NCAA's and
 the Tournament was *this* close to a death struggle.   The regular season
 winner was pretty much a lock but the other 6 teams (USC had gone
 independent by then) had hope *if* they won the tournament.   And in 1976,
 my beloved Wahoos did just that in one of the greatest ACC Tournament
 performances of all time ... Wally Walker had an unGodly three days as the
 Hoos knocked off No. 3 seed NC State, No. 2 seed Maryland and Top seed
 North Carolina.
 
 And the nexted year, we almost did it again ... only this time *I* was in
 C'ville.   1976-77 was my first year at Virginia and the team was pretty
 bad.  Not much speed, some height, a lotta "white" and Wally Walker was in
 the NBA.  We had the 1976 ACC banner to hang in the rafters but that was
 about it.   We saw a steady diet all year long of players like Tree
 Rollins, Phil Ford, Walter Davis, Rod Griffin, Mike Gminski, Jim
 Spanarkel, Skip Brown, Kenny Carr, and so on march thru University Hall
 and leave with blowout wins.
 
 But we beat Maryland on Senior Day to wrap up the regular season and
 rolled into Greensboro as the *bottom* seed.  First round was a 59-57 win
 over No. 2 seed Wake Forest as Marc Iavaroni hit a finger roll as the
 buzzer sounded.  The campus in C'ville went nuts.  This was a Friday
 afternoon and the rest of the day and into the night was a huge party.
 
 The nexted night was against Clemson (Tree Rollins).  I forget what they
 were seeded but Terry Holland had the Hoos ready to play and we won 72-60. 
 That night was one of the wildest party nights I've ever seen.  People
 everywhere shouting, screaming, hugging, dancing.   I saw a University bus
 almost get tipped over by a wild mob.   There were people on the roof of
 the bus singing as the mob rocked it on its wheels.
 
 Nexted night was Sunday and I won't go into the details ... We lost to
 you-know-who.   My very first taste of the *HATE* to come.  Saddest part
 was we were winning by 8 points with 5 minutes to go and Phil Ford and
 Mike O'Koren had both fouled out and Walter Davis was nursing an injury.  
 
 It was right there.   But John Kuester (We hatesssss it, Baggins, We
 hatessss it ...) saved Snuffy's butt and Carolina won by 6.   It was
 fatigue.  We were just worn out by the previous two games.  Carolina had a
 first-round bye and they had fresher legs down the stretch.   Carolina
 went on to the Final Two and lost an upset to Al McGuire's Swan Song
 Marquette Warriors.  I believe the Baby Blue Faithful file that one under
 "Other Team Was Emotionally Overcharged".   The Wahoos went home and a few
 weeks later Jeff Lamp signed his letter of intent and started a whole new
 era of Wahoo hoops.
 
 Fond memories of the ACC Tournament as it used to be ... The finest
 weekend of them all.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3114Heels + Refs + Dome > Duke DUGROS::ROSSBuchanan in an upsetThu Feb 06 1992 02:3350
    UNC beats Duke in the Deandome by 2... Easily the worst officiated
    game I have watched this year... Duke had a chance to tie with Laettner 
    heading to the hoop for a layup.  Montross rams into Laettner {coming
    from 10 feet away}, no call.  The refs were overmatched throughout the
    game, especially on the non-calls.  Laettner was hacked all night long,
    but did not get anything for it. 
    
    Bobby Hurley blew this game for Duke.  The best strategy an opposing
    team  can have is to let Hurley shoot or else leave his feet without a
    player to pass too.   Grant Hill is something... I hate to say
    Jordanesque, but he just may be... 
    
    Hubert Davis played well for the Heels.  Let's hope he grades out
    well in practice this week so he can stay in the starting lineup. :-(
    George Lynch didn't play well.  Pat Sullivan is a thug.  Reese and
    Phelps are going to make a nice guard tandem for two more years. 
    Henrik Rodl makes Larry Bird look like Mel Gibson.
    
    Montross ended up with a gash on the side of his head {a result of
    his leaning in and butting heads on offense} and a large 2" gash
    under one eye.   Looked like  Gerry Cooney's little brother...
    
    	Two Montross notes:
    
    		Midway thru the second half, Billy Packer {rhymes with
    		'necker'} said "Eric is having a monster game".  At that
    		point he had 8 points.   And anytime Montross shows some
    		skills, Dean pulls him out.   Montross COULD BE a very
    		good center if the system allowed to develop.  
    
    		During the last few minutes, Montross would sub in and 
    		out during change of possession because "Dean doesn't 
    		want him on the floor on offense"  Huh?  The best H.S. 
    		center two years ago is now a role player?
    
    
    Dean got a technical for arguing about Duke guys touching the ball
    after it came thru the hoop... It would be valid if NC was trying to
    push the ball up the floor or if Duke was delaying the game... but 
    all that would happen was the ball would go thru the hoop, usually
    into Laettner's hands, and he'd toss it immediately to the ref.  Dean
    and his bench lemmings spent more time moaning about that than
    anything.  Hurley blew the two free throws on the technical...
    
    Was it Vitale who picked Hurley as a player for his mid-season
    All-America team?  Please... he's got one talent - dishing off on
    the break... and if Grant Hill and Thomas Hill weren't out there to 
    pass too, Hurley would be a liability.
    
    
17.3115DUGROS::ROSSBuchanan in an upsetThu Feb 06 1992 02:342
    Oh yeah.. the laidback Tar Heel fans were reprimanded by the officials
    for throwing stuff on the floor after Dean's technical.  
17.3116They_be partying in Chapel Hill and Alpharetta tonight!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 06 1992 03:0512
    re: .last two
    
    Carolina wins.  Ross still sez we sip.
    
    Business as usual, people.  
    
    
    
    (But oh my, what a very, very nice win!  YEEE HAWWW!!!!!!!)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3117the constant whinning is rediculous CNTROL::CHILDSRodney Dangerfields &gt;&gt; The Dream TeamThu Feb 06 1992 11:5020
  Can you believe the audacity of the Man? He's in his own building, getting
  every call in the book, they're allowing his team to mug the opposition and
  he's whinning for more calls? get real.

  good game by the NC players but as I've said before it's easy to play d
  when they let you hit em...

  This gem by Vitale after Hurley goes up and clangs a layup "He's not having a
  Bobby Hurley night"...

  Hey Dicky where have you been he's been throwin that backboard breaker for
  years now with the same results.
 
  He also fell all over Hurley after he made that one floater in the lane after
  getting hit. Geez 8 year old in the playground make that shot with regularity.

  I agree Doug, Hill is special, just needs to become more focused...

 mike 
17.3118ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Feb 06 1992 12:0233
    Whaddya mean "we" kemosabe?  You are in no way shape or form 
    part a Star Hell U buddy.  You meant to say "they."
    
    Obviously I was pulling for the Star Hells and was happy to see
    them win.  Quinn Buckner was right: Those talented 7-footers
    clogged things up and bogged down Duke where it's most dangerous,
    along the front-line.  Observations:
    
    * Sure the 7-footers are slow, although Salvidori is quicker than
      most talented giants, but Phelps, Reese, Davis, Lynch, and 
      Williams aren't, and this squad kept up with a quick Duke squad,
      in fact forcing the pace against them as Krzyzewski desperately
      tried to get the game under control.
    
    * Vitale is right: The Star Hells like to play that run n' gun game
      (we'll set aside Crispy Critter's sand-bagging about how slow this
      team is) and a plodding Eric Montross has hurt his development by
      wearing the Baby Blew.
    
    * The Blews showed all the ear marks a a undisciplined team by not
      putting the game away down the stretch.  I couldn't believe that 
      street-ball 1-on-2 prayer Hubie put up with about 35 seconds left
      on the shot clock.  Then Phelps did his thing, then Montross nearly
      blew the game by profiling a sloppy jam instead of landing with the
      ball and either running out the clock or going back up for a real
    shot and drawing the foul.
    
    * I couldn't understand why Snuffy took out Montross (who was
    controlling the paint) for most a the last 3 minutes.
    
    Who got the technical and for what?  I was on the phone.
    
    MrT
17.3119Yo, Angelo, hand me that spray can, willya ???SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Feb 06 1992 12:0630
 So is "Winning Ugly" going to be Dean's new theme ???   
 
 Give Carolina credit ... They found Duke's weakspots.   The Tar Heels'
 *only* advantage is inside height and bulk and they threw lumber at the
 Devils all night long.  Snuff's bench is so deep that he could afford 4
 fouls on about half a dozen thugs so that's what he did ... 
 
 Hardly a strategy worthy of a "Michelangelo", wouldn't you say ???   Snuff
 looked an awful lot like a Big East coach lasted night.  And he set new
 personal bests for whining, too.   Another "T" for stepping outta his box
 just to piss and moan.   He looks and sounds more like an old woman with
 every passing year.
 
 But the "Thug Ho!" strategy did force Duke into taking some bad shots and,
 luckily for Carolina, Duke also had a cold night at the free throw line
 and so now we have a toppled No. 1.   And yes, we'll give credit to Snuffy
 for finding a way to pull off the upset ...
 
 But then again, check your calendar ... February, right ???   'Snuff said.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  Yes, Vitale once again named JJ and Hurley to his AA backcourt.  He
 also named an All-Heel NBA starting five ... Kenny Smith, Jordan, Perkins,
 Worthy, and Daugherty and said they could win the NBA title by themselves. 
 Course Dickie V forgot to mention that the five of them together could
 manage just the one ring while they were in school.   Amazing.   Snuff
 must have some kind of Vulcan mind-meld or something on these media boobs. 
 If Michelangelo had painted the Sistine Chapel like Snuff coached lasted
 night, it would have looked worse than subway graffiti.
17.3120ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Feb 06 1992 12:1727
    re .3109 + .3111
    
    These two notes are without merit.  The cost of a ticket is
    irrelevant; what's at issue is that in order to put more money
    into the coffers of a rich conference the regular season is
    cheapened, sapped of meaning and suspense, and turned into an
    NHL moneyh-grubbing exercise.
    
    That the tournaments haven't influenced NCAA slotting in '80s 
    only enhances my position: why play them at such a cost?  As
    far as settling the bubbles teams, we in the Big10 and Pac10 
    start charting the ins and outs of that as early as Febuary 1...
    Purdue's games against Minnesota last night had just such implications 
    and helped fire up the crowd.
    
    A trophy and being called Champ is hardly semantics.  To reduce a
    double round-robin to a mere preface to a weekend tourney played 
    on what amounts to a non-neutral court in a way that leaves things
    open to injuries, scheduling, and sometimes just plain luck is
    sacrificing the conference's integrity for unneeded cash.
    
    Whether or not the games are enjoyable or the fans enthusiastic is
    irrelevant.
    
    ACC Tourney is chicken-feed in the barnyard.  Cheep cheep !!
    
       Big1 Tom
17.3121Dean used to be a coach/person to admire...IMBACQ::SZABONumbers 7 &amp; 8 RULES !Thu Feb 06 1992 12:5111
    From a casual observer of ACC hoop, and totally neutral to the 2 teams
    last night, from what I saw, it was easy to lean towards Duke for the
    win.  UNC played ugly.  And, the refs were bought.  Anybody can see
    that clearly, talent-wise and coaching-wise, Duke is the far better
    team.  
    
    BTW, someone please tell that tall, fair-skinned, light-haired kid on
    the UNC team that he looks totally ridiculous with that 'do...
    
    Hawk
    
17.3122Kwak, r U referring to "Lurch"??? ;^)CST17::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Thu Feb 06 1992 12:581
    
17.3123ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Feb 06 1992 13:105
    One thing's for sure...
    
    Christian wins the hair-style match-up in the post!
    
    MrT
17.3124curiouser...HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Feb 06 1992 13:302
If the refs were bought, Las Vegas seemed to know it. The line lasted
night was a pick, as in even, no spread...
17.3125So is the official Weasel line that the game was fixed?AXIS::ROBICHAUDWeasels-MakeNoWhineBeforeIt'sTimeThu Feb 06 1992 13:481
    
17.3126CongratsSHALOT::MEDVIDthe illusion is deepThu Feb 06 1992 14:0310
>          -< So is the official Weasel line that the game was fixed? >-
    
    As an officially self-declared weasel, I'd just like to say congrats to
    Chris and the other Carilina minority in this conference.
    
    Didn't see the game.  Korean girl this time.  If it weren't for the
    breakup of the Soviet Union, I'd only have about 42 more countries to
    conquer. Now I've really got my work cut out for me. :-)
    
    	--dan'l
17.3127DYPSS1::ROPERBRoper DTN-433-4336Thu Feb 06 1992 14:0420
    Some thoughts on last nights game.
    
    #1.  Did anyone catch Vitales comment when Duke was up 31-29 in the
    first half?  He stated that both Duke and UNC had put up sparking
    numbers during the regular season.  He claimed the main difference
    between Smith and K. was what they did in the post-season.  "Positive
    recognition comes when you perform in March".
    
    #2.  A win is a win, but oh how ugly!  This is the first time I've paid
    attention to UNC this season.  I think they are about as undisciplined
    a team as I've seen in a while.  IMO, they had lousy shot selection. 
    And who was the BOZO who put up a prayer when they were up by 5 with 2
    minutes to play.  That folks would've never happened on a lot of teams.
    
    #3.  I can't wait until Pitino gets the kind of talent that Duke and
    UNC has.  When he does, you will see Kentucky dominate the game the way
    Duke has lately.  Only difference being they will carry away the
    hardware with much greater efficiency.
    
    WILDCAT
17.3128Still more ...SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Feb 06 1992 14:0441
17.3129Dan'l -- SPORTS SoTYCAM3::WAYCuimhnich, 13 February 1692Thu Feb 06 1992 14:1724
>    
>    Didn't see the game.  Korean girl this time.  If it weren't for the
>    breakup of the Soviet Union, I'd only have about 42 more countries to
>    conquer. Now I've really got my work cut out for me. :-)
    

Well, let's see:

	1. Mustang GT -- hot car

	2. Hot bachelor pad with great block parties

	3. Sensitive, caring kind of guy who teaches

	4. Water Polo Player



dan'l, thank GOD you don't play rugby.  If you did I think ALL of the
women in the world would be lined up at your door.....


Many congrats, and smilies,
'Saw
17.3130ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Feb 06 1992 14:2039
    So why not play them?  E-Z: Your conversations with ACCrook are
    diluted by the fack that if the Wahoos flop in the representative
    doublel round-robin, they always have a chance to pad their chances
    in the "Championsip" tourney.  Not only does the money-grubbing 
    exercise void the annual Championship (there isn't any), it reduces
    the conference schedule, which lasts two months, to a weekend playoff.
    
    Where is it written that an undeserving squad deserves a 2nd chance?
    
    A loser should suffer for the loss; a winner should gain for the win.
    The "Championship" tourney dilutes this wonderful Darwinian process
    by at least half, and it smacks of gratuitious welfare-style giveaways
    where it's considered bad form to not alleviate psychological suffering
    with a (profitable) pabulum.
    
    >The Big10 should have it so good.
    
    The Big10 has had those who would profit (TV distributors, ESPN, print
    sports media, arena operators, et al) begging them for a decade now to
    cook up a meaningless money-grubbing spectacle like the Almost Close
    Conference "Championship" tournament.
    
    The Big10 has refused cuz it would take so much a the fun out a the
    other two months, the perfectly representative conference schedule.
    
    And yes, I believe that the Duke/Star Hell fans *were* sitting there
    thinking that, beyond partial bragging rights, the game was meaningless.
    
    Because it indeed was.  I know that's what I was thinking.  It's a 
    damned shame that Carolina pulling within 2 games a Duke in the
    conference standings doesn't mean a rat's ass as far as the Trophy.
    
    Sigh.  Such is life with gratuitous welfarism in a society of diluted
    overexposure glut.  Just what we need, another dozen basketball games
    to maybe reverse what we already found out over the previous two
    months; and two months of balanced selection watered down to the
    stature of the NHL regular season.
    
    MrT
17.3131cat fight!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Feb 06 1992 14:2411
    >Sensitive caring guy who teaches
    
    Mr. Meat is more like it.  If I ever meet Medvid I'm gonna handcuff
    him, fly him to Minnesota, and kick his ace into a lecture hall packed
    with radical-feminist-lesbians seething with anger in the midst of an
    Andrea Dworkin presentation on how the Clarence Thomas hearings proved
    that all male-female sex is rape and subordination.
    
    Wouldn't ever see his sexist-pig bragging in here after that.
    
    MrT
17.3132More ...SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Feb 06 1992 14:3131
17.3133CSCOA1::ROLLINS_RThu Feb 06 1992 14:3723
>    Where is it written that an undeserving squad deserves a 2nd chance?
>    
>    A loser should suffer for the loss; a winner should gain for the win.
>    The "Championship" tourney dilutes this wonderful Darwinian process
>    by at least half, and it smacks of gratuitious welfare-style giveaways
>    where it's considered bad form to not alleviate psychological suffering
>    with a (profitable) pabulum.

     Can't agree with T more.  How appalling to see these fans of loser
     teams cheering them on in the notes file.  They should boycott all
     such games for the good of the sport.  For example, the North Stars
     of last year are a perfect fit.

     Moreover, really only conference champions should be invited to the
     NCAA tournament, to really make the regular season chamionship mean
     something.  T might tell you it means something, but then he uses the
     NCAA tournament results as the only true way to measure greatness, so
     that's really what counts; don't let his plethora of words fool you.
     Applying this standard, I think we can see that many of the 1980's
     titleists are "faux champions," and their true fans won't be claiming
     any sort of national championship, since they aren't even conference
     champions.  There goes the Villanova title, the Duke title lasted year,
     and probably some others.
17.3134Cleaning up Rolly's fallacious little turds...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Feb 06 1992 15:4754
>     Can't agree with T more.  How appalling to see these fans of loser
>     teams cheering them on in the notes file.  They should boycott all
>     such games for the good of the sport.  

I spoke only about how phony or real the fortunes are in connection with
their actual performance of a representative schedule and how it dilutes
the significance of the game to the fans.  
    
In contrast to your false implication I said nothing about how fans should
only root for winners.
 
>     For example, the North Stars of last year are a perfect fit.

Except for the troublesome little detail that your analogy is far from
perfect: The no-integrity NHL at least has several rounds of home/away
7 game series to choose its Champ; the Champ is just that, the Champ;
the Conference Champs are chosen via a double round-robin; and there is
no pre-tourney tourney in the NHL.

Meanwhile the Almost Close has no integrity-based conference Champ selection
process (unlike even the no-integrity NHL).

>     Moreover, really only conference champions should be invited to the
>     NCAA tournament, to really make the regular season chamionship mean
>     something.  

Irrelevant.  How selection committe chooses its teams is not at issue here,
and the fact that they 64 teams, more than one from each conference, has
nothing to do with the dilution of the no-integrity Almost Close.

>    T might tell you it means something, but then he uses the
>     NCAA tournament results as the only true way to measure greatness, so
>     that's really what counts; don't let his plethora of words fool you.

Again you fib.  I bought off on the Hendry/Hunt metrics, which held the 
Title game as a subsidiary factor in overall long-term evaluations of the
conferences. 

>     Applying this standard, I think we can see that many of the 1980's
>     titleists are "faux champions," and their true fans won't be claiming
>     any sort of national championship, since they aren't even conference
>     champions.  There goes the Villanova title, the Duke title lasted year,
>     and probably some others.

Fib fib fib.  The NCAA tournament stands on its own.  What's at issue here
is how the welfarist Almost Close has sold its booty for a fistful of 
dollars and has reduced games like the one we saw last night to a mere warm
up without meaning.

I implied no such connection to the NCAA tourney and you failed to show that
I did (which as usual didn't prevent your fackless feckless self from claiming
as much).

MrT
17.3135You guys will hate the day I get married, won't ya!SHALOT::MEDVIDthe illusion is deepThu Feb 06 1992 15:578
>    Wouldn't ever see his sexist-pig bragging in here after that.

    Who's bragging?  I'm a flaming heterosexual who is kind enough to let
    my married or otherwise unlucky-at-love friends live vicariously off
    my sex life.  If anything, you should be thanking me; these days, it's
    much safer to use a proxy and I don't mind that role whatsoever. 8-)

    	--dan'l
17.3136The Gauntlet ... thrown down, jack.SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Feb 06 1992 16:1133
 Same old, same old ...   As hard as you try, you just ain't gonna shake
 enough apples outta this tree to feed your hunger, T.   Since 1954, ACC
 fans have been enjoying the heck outta the tournament and since 1980 it's
 played simply for their benefit.   We like it.  We want to see it
 continued and, quite frankly, there ain't nothing lllegal, immoral, or
 cheap (to us) about it.
 
 I know what your goal is here.   And I can keep the argument pot boiling
 as long and as hot as you can.  Fire away.  Eventually you'll tire and
 move on to other pursuits ... like Big Bad John.
 
 I'll tell you what ... Let's put it on the line, big guy.   If this year's
 ACC Tournament produces an undeserving cheep faux champ that invalidates
 the regular season, I'll wear a "Stop The ACC Tourney Now !!!" personal
 name for one solid week.
 
 An "undeserving champ" is described as an ACC team that clearly would not
 have earned an invite to the NCAA Tournament had they not won the ACC
 Tournament.   Maryland *still* falls into this category despite their ban
 on NCAA post-season play.   That is, if the Twerps win it all, I'll still
 wear the p-name for a week.
 
 If a "lock" team wins it, you wear an "I Want My Big Ten Tourney Too !!!"
 personal name for 24 hours.  A "lock" team is an ACC team that will have
 *no* worries about a Big Dance invite at the *immediate* close of the ACC
 regular season.
 
 C'mon, whadda you say ???   You're up for this, aren't you ???
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.   UPPERCASE, lowercase, Mixed Case ... it don't matter none.   Must
 have the three exclamation marks, though !!!
17.3137Poor calls!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSHow many more days till Daytona?Thu Feb 06 1992 16:1213
    
    	Whenever you got Lenny Wertz officating a game at the Dean dome,
    it's going to be a win for the Tar Babies...He and Deno go Waaaayyyy
    back to their days as kids crying to their moms on which one of them
    got to blow on the wistle!
    
    as for the rest of the leauge...
    
    	Clemson beat Tech on O.T.
    	Maryland beat Fla.State
    
    B.A.
    
17.3138glad to service...OOPS *BE* of service to ya Ma'am.....CST17::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Thu Feb 06 1992 16:139
    --dan'l
    
    why do I imagine you as Warren Beatty in that hairdresser movie??
    What was that title anyway?  You ride a motorcycle?
    
    ;^)
    
    Kev
    
17.3139ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Feb 06 1992 16:1828
    Your gauntlet is jive-bull, Bob "Witch" Hunt.  Have you inebriated
    yourself at the cupcake counter yet again?
    
    The issue is whether the proven de facto Champ (Duke no doubt) is
    able to earn the de jure Crown during your money-grubbing spectacle.
    
    You're axeing me to bet that the money-grubbing spectacle winner won't
    be one of the 6 teams who're locks for a bid, a proposition that has
    nothing to do with what we're talking about here.
    
    Btw, the reason they call the tourney winner Champ is:
    
    1) They have to in order to endow the money-grubbing exercise with
       some form of meaning, such as it is, and
    
    2) Without this endowment they'd admit what everybody really feels
       in their heart already, that it's a farce, and if they let the
       cat out a the bag the TV $ would go down and that's what they're
       grubbing for in the first place.
    
    So for reasons 1 & 2 the double round-robin in a sub-NHL tune up, and
    nothing more.
    
    Your bet is ridiculous, stupid, and wildly unfair.
    
    Shame on you and the fly-bitten cupcake-drunk nag you rode in on.
    
    MrT
17.3140No motorcycle ... Schwarzenegger took it from himSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Feb 06 1992 16:1910
 "Shampoo" was the Warren Beatty movie.
 
 For the record, the MicroHUNTS think Mr Medvid is the cat's pajamas, too. 
 The young man pegs on the appeal-o-meter.   Arnold Becker's Babe Of The
 Week Parade is alive and well in the Queen City.
 
 Course if he ever starts stalking one of the MicroHUNTS, we'll have to
 have a leetle talk, won't we Danny boy ???   Shick, shick, BOOM !!!
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3141I'd never touch your daughters, Bob; they like ClemsonSHALOT::MEDVIDthe illusion is deepThu Feb 06 1992 16:251
    
17.3142Bigger GauntletSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Feb 06 1992 16:2614
17.3143You're damn right you ain't touchin' em !!!SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Feb 06 1992 16:3411
17.3144ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Feb 06 1992 17:0815
    That's another thing, Bob "Witch" Hunt: In this place it's very
    difficult to collect on debts.  Just look at the shameless spectacle
    put on by /Roachy-poachy main.  Go on, *you* enjoy a good old 
    fasioned shameless spectacle, don't ya?
    
    No way on the bet.  I'm not wagering against Duke.  They're very
    talented and well coached.  The only Almost Close team that cain match 
    their talent is the Star Hells, and I'm still wincing from the street
    ball display they put on when the clutch was down last night.
    
    Forget it.  This is just another one a your famous raw deals.
    
    I'll pass, and understandably so.
    
    MrT
17.3145I always get them confusedFRETZ::HEISERhope set highThu Feb 06 1992 17:183
>> "Plato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnight" 
    
    Wasn't Plato gay?  Or was that Socrates?
17.3146similiarities are incredible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!CST17::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Thu Feb 06 1992 17:218
    Has MorT joined the MtM school of wimp out??????
    
    ;^)
    
    or does it just seem that he has?
    
    Kev
    
17.3147Mr T(rembling) ???SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Feb 06 1992 17:3519
 Gauntlet picked back up, replaced on hand, battle resumed.
 
 Shame.  This was an honest wager and I would have paid up fair and square
 had I lost ... and the odds were with *you* on the second proposal (Duke
 vs Other 8) since the ACC regular season champ more often than not comes
 up lame in the Tournament.
 
 I would have hired Bocchaccio hostages if it would have made you feel any
 safer about my integrity.  {"Godfather" fans will recognize this as the
 surest sign of honest intent.}
 
 Bigger shame is that your refusal to replace your mouth with your money
 pops a nice big gaping hole in your anti-Tournament bubble.   Too bad you
 ain't got the filberts to back up your rhetoric.
 
 Now, shall we discuss Big Bad John ???   Or would you prefer the New York
 Mets ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3148ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Feb 06 1992 17:4718
    Shaddap "Witch" I ain't done anything but declined to make a 
    stupid bet.  Don't wager myself, but you cain take it to the
    bank that Las Vegas sez that the Devils will win the Almost
    Championship tournament.  And it's basically a 1-1 thing, cuz
    only the Star Hells cain match their talent in this down year
    for the ACC.
    
    And whether or not Duke wins the Almost Championship tournament
    has nothing to do with my thesis so I don't need "to put my money
    where my rhetoric is."  Translation: They shouldn't be playing
    the damned thing in the first place and even if Duke does win they're
    only affirming what they've already proved!
    
    Haw haw haw.
    
    It's good to see you exposed as a cupcake-prone spectacle-afficianado!
    
    MrT
17.3149ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Feb 06 1992 17:4910
    re .3145
    
    Your apparent homophobia has no place in Digital, Mike.  You 
    could use another session in Values Valuing Valuable Differences.
    You'd look better than most being led around blindfolded by an
    administrative assistant (haw haw).
    
    Jeez, next you'll be talking about Tragic Johnson!
    
    MrT
17.3150AXIS::ROBICHAUDWeasels-MakeNoWhineBeforeIt'sTimeThu Feb 06 1992 17:508
17.3151DYPSS1::ROPERBRoper DTN-433-4336Thu Feb 06 1992 17:547
    'T, YOU DON'T HAVE THE GUTS to take up Bob's more than fair wager.  In
    fact it's so lop-sided in your favor that you should wear the P-Name
    for a week if you lose.
    
    Poor, poor MrT.
    
    WILDCAT
17.3152Miscellaneous thoughts ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 06 1992 18:0053
    Gotta admit to being perplexed by the noter response to the Duke
    @ UNC game.  Consider:
    
    o Carolina played their *guts* out on the defensive end.  Tremendous
      defensive effort by both teams - as good as you'll see in the college
      game.  
    
    o Incredible to me that folks would criticize Montross after the 
      performance he put on.  Bleeding in the first half because of a 
      cut to his head; stitches under his eye in the 2nd half; blood all
      over the guys jersey.  And what'd he do?  Only lead the Heels in
      boards and hold the possible NCAA PoY to 12 points or so. 
      (Admittedly he had some help with the later, as Kevin Salvadori
      turned in far-and-away his best game as a Tar Heel.)  Let me sum it
      up simply by saying No Eric Montross; No UNC "W" over Duke.
    
    o Blaming the refs.  For the records, Duke had 22 fouls to UNC's 20.
      Also for the record UNC has one of the worst foul differentials in
      the ACC.  For a team as highly ranked as we are it's incredible to
      consider we're committing almost as many fouls as we receive.  Also
      note that none of the Duke comments I heard or read about resorted
      to whining about the officiating.  The game was hard fought.  There
      was alot of contact on both sides.  We used our size advantage to
      maximum efficiency, which as I documented before the game was the 
      *only* way we were gonna beat a very impressive Duke squad.
    
    Other thoughts:
    
    o Cherokee Parks has been disapointing for Duke so far.  He really did
      zippo last night.  The rest of their bench ain't so hot either. 
      Without question this is their achilles heel, cause their starting
      five (5) is tremendous.
    
    o Dean's Technical was ill-advised, to say the least.  He's a stickler
      for rules enforcement though, and the rules state that Duke shoulda
      gotten a 'T' for touching the ball after it went thru the hoop.  I
      disagree with Ross - fast breaking after a made basket has long been
      a Caroliana trademark.  Still, the T coulda really hurt if Hurley
      had made both f-throws ...
    
    o We're now only one (1) game out of first in the ACC (in the loss
      column).
    
    o It'll be interesting to see how the Nerds respond after their
      grueling DD encounter, since they have to go to LSU and play another
      team with an imposing center.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
    
    
17.3153ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Feb 06 1992 18:0210
    >I paid the bet twice.
    
    This is the kind a new math one expects from a Dean Smith fan (1 = 
    30).  
    
    You paid the bet once, you paid it late, and you were made to pay
    it under duress (i.e., I had to roll up my sleeves and beach-slap
    joe ace).
    
    MrT  
17.3154ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Feb 06 1992 18:0611
    re .3152
    
    The Star Hells' foul differential stems from the inefficient style
    of ball their "coach" makes them play... the criticism of Montross
    had to do with how his "coach" has used him thus far in his career
    (again, style of play)... The Star Hell coach deserved the TF and
    the refs are sick of his perpetual whining and his only hope at this
    point is to wear a wig, lipstick and mascara and maybe they'd tolerate
    him.
    
    MrT
17.3155*WE*? Did you play too?SASE::SZABONumbers 7 &amp; 8 RULES !Thu Feb 06 1992 18:111
    
17.3156Must have three hands; third Gauntlet challengedSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Feb 06 1992 18:1211
 Okay, once more to see if we can detect some spine, *any* spine, in this
 here boy ...
 
 I'll wear the anti-ACC Tournament p-name of *your* choice for a solid week
 if *ANY* combination of ACC Tournament seeds makes it to Sunday's final
 game *EXCEPT* for No 1 against No 2.
 
 You wear the previously proposed p-name for 24 hours if and only if the
 top two seeds are playing in Sunday's final game.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3157What's the point? What would this prove? [zero]ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Feb 06 1992 18:161
    
17.3158AXIS::ROBICHAUDWeasels-MakeNoWhineBeforeIt'sTimeThu Feb 06 1992 18:178
17.3159ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJohn (Big Bad John)Thu Feb 06 1992 18:273
    So you admit you got cuffed.  Sleep a the forked tongue?
    
    MrT
17.3160You almost cain't loseSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Feb 06 1992 18:3720
17.3161FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu Feb 06 1992 18:457
    And then it answers my argument that the only truly meaningful regular
    season in the NCAA (in terms of getting into the NCAA tournament)
    belongs to the Ivy League since they don't have a post-season
    tournament and the chances of their having more than one representative
    in a season are about as good as my sprouting wings and flying.
    
    John
17.3162ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJohn (Big Bad John)Thu Feb 06 1992 19:0020
    While this for-amusement-purposes-only-non-monetary wager is tempting,
    I must point out that the conclusions you propose to draw from it are
    not valid.  
    
    If you win, i.e., the top two conference finishers end up in the Almost 
    Close (to a tournament championsip) game, all we've proved is that the
    money-grubbing exercise is perfectly redundant.
    
    If I win, i.e., somebody from the 3-10 slots ends up in the Almost 
    Close (to a tournament championship) game, all we've proved is that the
    money-grubbing exercise is imperfectly redundant.
    
    So, while the for-amusement-purposes-only-non-cash wager might have
    merit, I as a objective analyst cain't go along with the spurious
    (and self-serving) conclusions you would claim to draw from its
    outcome.
    
    Come back now.
    
    MrT
17.3163~/~CST17::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Thu Feb 06 1992 19:0412
    shaddup ninj' & quit bringing common sense into the ACC note.
    It's illegal!!!!!
    
    I wanna hear more from the summa cum laude graduate of the "MtM School
    o' Wimps" on howcome he aint up to accepting the challenge laid down at
    his feet!
    
    (Psst- Mort, get yer visit from E.T. yet?  ;*)  )
    
    grins,
    Kev
    
17.3164Easiest "money" you coulda ever made ...SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Feb 06 1992 19:0627
17.3165ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJohn (Big Bad John)Thu Feb 06 1992 19:2118
    Ok ok Witch.  I'll do the damned bet.  I know I'll lose cuz the
    Dookies and the Blew Heels are mortal locks lead pipe cinches
    but I don't wanna put up the unfair haranguing I'll inevitably
    undergo if I don't and also it will enhance my rooting against 
    the Star Hells and that geekoid coach a theirs.
    
    A personal pledge: I will pay in full and on time.  No dishonorable
    sleazebag scumball cheat-ace bullcrap from MrT.  If I lose I'll pay
    up no games no cheat no snake in the grass.
    
    I want you to pledge to me that if you lose you "will not pull a
    cheaty /Don scam."  I will:
    
    
    If I lose I will not pull a cheaty /Don scam.  I will honor my debt
    and be a classy dude and not a scumbag.
    
    MrT
17.3166CAM3::WAYCuimhnich, 13 February 1692Thu Feb 06 1992 19:2810
I just extracted .-1, just in case anyone is interested farther down the
road.

As Flounder would say in Animal House:


		"Oh boy, is this **GREAT**


'Saw
17.3167DealSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Feb 06 1992 19:3620
17.316820+ notes to read thru, ... and we end up with *this*?!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 06 1992 21:1310
    re: BobHunt vs. MrT
    
    YAWN.  The *only* thing I find even remotely interesting about this
    wimpish square-off is the possibility that BobHunt may be forced to
    root for Carolina in order to not lose his stupid bet.
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3169Damm, wish I was a lawyer! I could REALLY screw this bet up!CSTEAM::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Thu Feb 06 1992 23:5234
    
    I guess I'm a little like MacTheMod, feelin a bit nitpicky but
    I have a question, preceeded by a statement I'd like to make regarding
    the bet between BobHunt and the flunk-out from the "MtM School of
    Wimping Out"! ;^)
    
    As I recall, *IF* BobHunt wins the bet, the loser only has to do the
    P-name thang for 24 hours.  Right????
    
    My question is:  Does the 24 hours have to be contiguous (meaning all
    at one time for you rugby types) or can it be broken up into say 10
    minute segments or 5 hours at a time or what AND does it have to be 
    during the work week or does weekend count?
    
    (I lied, I have another statement to make)
    
    Now I'm not one to cast aspersions on the honorable character (?) of
    Mr. ShagNasty but there has been instances in the past when we were led
    to believe one thing when in fact (as we were later informed) a TOTALLY
    different meaning was intended.  After all, it was an innocent college
    prank. Right?
    I like things simple, like me!  ;^) , but..... I really think that
    it needs to be clarified when said P-name may/may not be "worn" since
    it is entirely possible that the loser *COULD* chose to change the
    P-Name early on a Saturday morning, become a RON, and on Sunday change
    it back without ever entering nuttin!!!!  According to the spirit of
    the bet, it's been "paid-in full".  However??????
    
    What say ye?
    
    I remain,
    slightly curious,
    Kev
    
17.31701 excuse for rent!CST17::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Fri Feb 07 1992 12:2913
    I just thought I'd provide a bit of ammunition of the anti-tar heel
    faction here.
    
    Duke's All-American guard, Bobby Hurley broke a metatarsal bone in his
    foot early in the game against the Snuffer and crew.
    
    Can anybody tell me what number in the "Choke Book" corresponds to
    "our star player was sick/injured/whatever"?
    
    I don't remember
    
    Kev
    
17.3171Not that I'm rooting against the guy or anything ... ;^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 07 1992 12:347
    Who's got more details on this Hurley injury?  How serious is it?  
    
    Without Bob Hurley Duke can kiss its NCAA Title chances goodbye, and
    quite possibly their ACC Title(s) as well.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3172As if there was any doubtSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Fri Feb 07 1992 12:4411
17.3173Time to test their metalSHALOT::MEDVIDthe illusion is deepFri Feb 07 1992 12:457
    Hurley is out for at least three weeks.  I don't know who will run the
    offense now.
    
    Funny how just the other day everyone was calling Hurley a liability. 
    Now that they don't have him, Duke's chances are being questioned.
    
    	--dan'l
17.3174CNTROL::CHILDSRodney Dangerfields &gt;&gt; The Dream TeamFri Feb 07 1992 13:2315
    
>    Funny how just the other day everyone was calling Hurley a liability. 
>    Now that they don't have him, Duke's chances are being questioned.
    
 
 Dan-l for the record Chris is the only one questioning Duke's chances
 without him. Doug R. and myself are the ones who called him a liability.
 I quess will get to see who's right. My bet is Doug and myself will
 look right on this one. Why? Now that it will become Grant Hill's offense
 he'll have the ball in his hands more and score more. Atleast when he takes
 it to the hole he does finish, something Hurley doesn't. 

 I really do expect Duke to be stronger....

 mike 
17.3175On BobbyANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJohn (Big Bad John)Fri Feb 07 1992 13:2833
    re .3167, 3169
    
    So long as we're popping off at the moufs with fancy lawyerly talk,
    Bob, you steal ain't given the pledge.  Just extracting it and saying
    "done" won't suffice.
    
    Regarding the payoff, I'll guarantee one full day with a twenty note
    minimum, a work day, in all my usual haunts, including this place.
    
    re: Bobby Hurley
    
    Now, for the wrong reason, we'll see just how valuable this kid is.
    
    Some have scoffed at Vitale calling him a 1st team All-America.  I'm
    not so sure.  Certain players stand apart when they have the ball. 
    They're able to play out most of their efforts (drives, dishes, shots,
    attempted steals, etc.) without being turned back by their check.  This
    type of player always looks clean, in control, and absolutely at the
    center of what his team is trying to accomplish.  You cain't keep your
    eyes off a players like this.  
    
    In '79 we had two such players in Tragic and Larry.  Jordan is like 
    that.  JJ is like that right now.  I'm not saying Bobby will ever play
    at the level of these superstars, but I think he has the potential to
    develop into a John Stockton type player, that he'll succeed in the
    NBA although probably not as a scorer, and that he may even end up with
    multiple All-Star appearances.
    
    Could be wrong, maybe it's the thoroughbreds he's able to pass to or
    Bob-acolyte CoachK's coaching, but Bobby's game is one a the prettiest
    sights to watch right now in college hoops.
    
    MrT 
17.3176Pot calling the kettle black ... againSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Fri Feb 07 1992 14:1712
17.3177Who can really figure him out ?CSCOA1::ROLLINS_RFri Feb 07 1992 15:0411
17.3178Clemson almost took Dean outta the booksSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Fri Feb 07 1992 15:2214
 Two nights ago, Clemson tortured Georgia Tech with a 24 point explosion in
 overtime.  The Tigers scored on each of their OT possessions and handed
 the Jackets their 7th straight loss in Littlejohn.
 
 Clemson's 24 points in an overtime period was 1 point shy of the NCAA
 record which is ... ta da! ... 25 points.   Set by the Texas A&M Aggies in
 a 1980 NCAA First Round victory over ...
 
                  Dean Smith's North Carolina Tar Heels.
 
 Snuff's 1980 Heels had Mike O'Koren, Al Wood, and James Worthy and got
 absolutely starched by the no-name Aggies.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3179ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJohn (Big Bad John)Fri Feb 07 1992 15:266
    Bob, you gonna recite The Pledge or not.  Please, just for me.
    Pleeeze?
    
    Thanky in advance.
    
    MrT
17.3181CAMONE::WAYCuimhnich, 13 February 1692Fri Feb 07 1992 15:334
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United Notes File SPORTS
And to the lunacy, for which it stands,  One Notes file, 
where __fill_in_blank___ is GAWD(tm),
with fun, happiness, and Sid Justice for all.
17.3182Duke *better* without Hurley? Haw haw haw!!!!111RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 07 1992 15:3519
    How anybody in their right mind could think Duke will actually be
    better off *without* Bob Hurley is a galaxy-sized mystery to me.  The
    kid is the absolute heart and soul of the Blue Devils, and I certainly
    woulda thought his back-to-back 40 minute performances in last years
    Final 4 would've proven this without any doubt whatsoever.
    
    Hurley does an awful lotta things for Duke.  For starters, he plays
    terrific in-your-face defense.  He handles the opponents pressure
    masterfully, rarely turning the ball over.  His outside shot has
    improved significantly (he'll stick the open '3' a good percentage of
    the time) and his offensive quickness allows him to penetrate and dish. 
    His size (i.e. he's short) will never allow him to be a great or
    perhaps even good finisher, and this will pretty much eliminate any 
    shot at the NBA.  (Stockton is much bigger, BTW.)  But Duke *better*
    without him?  In your dreams ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.3183CNTROL::CHILDSRodney Dangerfields&gt;The Dream TeamFri Feb 07 1992 16:0218
 Hurley does turn the ball over alot in the half court offense when he attemps 
 drive leaves his feet out of control and bingo turnover. Hey when you start
 off shooting 9% from 3 point range of course 25% is an improvement. I'll
 give you his defense is good, and the mental aspect of his game is good.
 He shines in the open court on a fastbreak but like I said his half court
 game is suspect in my opinion.

 I feel that they will be better because Grant Hill will now assume more
 responsibility offensively so he will score more. They will now have 
 another Athlete on the court at all times to help with the rebounding
 and I's venture to guess he'll be able to play defense as well as Bobby
 plus score. The big question is can Hill make the transition to the point?
 If he can then I'm right.

 so HAW HAW HAW yourself....

 mike
17.3184Happy, T ???SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Fri Feb 07 1992 16:196
 If I lose I will not pull a cheaty /Don scam.  I will honor my debt
 and be a classy dude and not a scumbag.
 
 So help me Dean.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3185HEY youze guys quit slandering me, or I'll get a lawyer!AXIS::ROBICHAUDBillClinton-EqualOpportunity@#$%&amp;!*Fri Feb 07 1992 16:231
    
17.3186Go ahead, maybe Tyson's lawyer'll be available next weekSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Fri Feb 07 1992 16:284
 Take your bestest shot, Slasher.  Ever since you "defected", you ain't
 exactly been winnin' Miss Congeniality points with Da Henchmen.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3187AXIS::ROBICHAUDBillClinton-EqualOpportunity@#$%&amp;!*Fri Feb 07 1992 16:374
    	I didn't defect.  I grew weary of the groupthink policies of the
    Weasels.  Don't really need a lawyer cuz I took latin in high school.
    
    				/Don
17.3188Didn't like the "mob" so became a Deansketeer ???SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Fri Feb 07 1992 17:249
17.3189Go Wahoos, Pack, Terps, Seminoles, et alANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJohn (Big Bad John)Fri Feb 07 1992 17:317
    Thank you Bob.  It had to be said.  For the first time I have a reason
    (however feeble) to look forward to your fave money-grubbing spectacle
    (which is a feeble exercise).
    
    Let 'em roll !!
    
    MrT
17.3190RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOU of W Huskies=fraud chickens!Fri Feb 07 1992 17:398
    Serious Question:
    
    What's the career record of Bob vs. Dean?
    
    JD
    
    PS:  Good win the other night for the Heels.  Whenever you beat #1 - it
    has to be a good victory.  
17.3191Pretty sure we played in either 80 or 82 in Chapel Hill, too.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 07 1992 17:449
    Thankee, JD.  As to Dean vs. Bob, I can only remember three (3) times
    when they've met, though I'm sure there have been more:
    
    1. 1981 Regular Season.  We beat the Hoosiers in Bloomington.
    2. 1981 Finals.  Lost to 'em the day Reagon was shot.
    3. 1984 Sweet 16.  Lost.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3192RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOU of W Huskies=fraud chickens!Fri Feb 07 1992 17:568
    Chris -
    
    NO thanks.  I didn't see the game.  But I do feel that if the #1 team
    gets beat, then the opponent has to have had a good game.
    
    Of course, the win probably won't mean a lot at the end of the season.
    
    JD
17.3193CNTROL::CHILDSRodney Dangerfields&gt;The Dream TeamFri Feb 07 1992 17:587
hey where's my thankee? I said a good win for the players. A dispicible display
by Dean...

oh yeah that's right no one no how no way can critize his hole-iness....

 mike
17.3194MrT extends olive branch to Chris!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJohn (Big Bad John)Fri Feb 07 1992 18:2217
    Star Hells - Hoosiers clashed once more as I remember, after '84,
    I think.  Season opener or close to it.  In St. Louis?  Close game
    that the Hells won.
    
    Chris, I think these people have NOT accorded Dean and his minions
    (and you) just desserts for knocking off the nation's #1 squad...
    
    This big win proved in a war that the Star Heels have the mainpower
    and guts to play with the defending Champs!
    
    And Snuffmeister's wretched coaching made this a "in spite of" win
    that left everybody convinced that the Heels have no chance come
    tourney time.
    
    Haw haw haw...
    
    MrT
17.3195Didn't even graduate from there....DECWET::METZGERIt's not the thing that you fling...Fri Feb 07 1992 18:2413

WTF is ACC Crisp thanking people for? Ain't nobody said "Good game playing
those Blew Debils last night,Crisp". Have they?

Now if Dean hisself stepped in here to recieve the accolades I wouldn't have
a problem.


Or is Crisp now coaching or playing on the Baby Blew squad?


Metz
17.3196Metz, the main's living a fantasy, ok? Shhhhhh.ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJohn (Big Bad John)Fri Feb 07 1992 18:281
    
17.3197Dean 3, Bob 2, Bob 1, Dean 0CSOA1::SIMPSON_TIn search of mythical kingsSat Feb 08 1992 12:3519
	I think there have been 5 Dean Vs. Bob match-ups:

	o  I believe they played a home-and-home in December '80, and
	   December '81, with the Heels winning both.  Neither game a
	   blow-out, neither game a nail-biter (if memory serves).

	o  The 1981 championship game, of course.  Close at the half,
	   Thomas took control early in the second half and the Hoosiers
	   won by 10+.

	o  The 1984 Dakich glory game in the tournament (followed immediately
	   by the 1984 Dakich goat game in the tournament).

	o  The pre-season NIT in '88 or '89.  The Heels blew out the
	   Hoosiers, one of 3 straight games (L'ville, NC, and Syracuse, I 
	   believe) where the Indiana gave up 100+ points.   

tom

17.3198What a week!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueSat Feb 08 1992 17:4715
    Wow!  A few more weeks like this and the DeanDome will start to earn a
    spot with Carmichael Auditorium as a hellish gym for opponents.
    
    Down by **TWENTY** big ones in the 2nd half, Hubert Davis hoisted the
    lethargic bunch of battered and bruised baby blue warriors onto his Al
    Wood-sized shoulders and got us back in the game.  Wake missed free
    throws down the stretch; Pat Sullivan hit two (2) **BIG ONES** to tie
    the game inside a minute, Derrick McQueen's, Wake's only floor general
    fouled out, and Brian Reese hit a put-back 18 footer at the buzzer for
    the 'W'.
    
    Fantastic win, obviously.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3199CNTROL::CHILDSRodney Dangerfields&gt;The Dream TeamMon Feb 10 1992 12:067
 When I saw the score in the paper my first thought was CLEMSON REFS(tm).
 true or not true??

 Chris don't bother to answer this one...  ;^)

 mike
17.3200We stole this one, but not cause of officiating ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 10 1992 13:2615
    Associating a Carolina 'W' with bad officiating would be a very
    Weasel-like thing to do, but lemme clue you into two (2) facts:
    
    1. Dave Odom, in his terse post-game press conference, didn't use
       this as an excuse,
    
    and
    
    2. Anytime you're winning by TWENTY (20) points in the 2nd half and
       lose you've got no business blaming the referees.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3201IF MONTH .EQS. "2" THEN WAKE = "Blue"SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Mon Feb 10 1992 13:478
 February is *always* a great month in Chapel Hill.  Ain't nuthin'
 weasel-ish about that simple fact.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  It has become brutally obvious that Wake's chances for this season
 ended lasted summer when Randolph Childress blew out his knee in a pickup
 game.
17.3202Duke still at the top ???SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Mon Feb 10 1992 13:5415
 Does Duke keep its No 1 ranking after their 10 point win in Baton Rouge
 on Saturday ???   Or does Oklahoma State take it with their home win over
 Kansas ???
 
 Shaq had better overall numbers than Laettner but Shaq missed some clutch
 free throws down the end.  So did the other Tigers and Duke pulled away
 for the win.   These are the kind of games that Krzyzewksi likes to
 schedule to toughen his team up for the Big Dance nexted month.   His NCAA
 record is outrageous (27-7) so he must be doin' something right.
 
 Grant Hill played point guard and Duke didn't miss a beat.   Like I said
 lasted week, it's awfully nice to be able to replace an AA candidate with
 a future NBA stud.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3203Duke is the darling of the media, without question. :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 10 1992 14:158
    re: .-1
    
    USA Today kept Dooke at #1.  Carolina only advanced one (1) spot to #8,
    which is hard for me to swallow given a 'W' over the #1 school in the
    country.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3204As usual, Faithful see half-full glassSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Mon Feb 10 1992 14:508
17.3205Gugliotta?CST17::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Mon Feb 10 1992 15:0411
    Speaking of NC State,
    
    Anybody care to comment on Gugliotta's play this year and where he
    stands in the pro draft?  I think it was during the ACC-BE tourney
    when I saw him last and thought he'd be a great power forward.
    
    Is he still playing well?
    
    deen ot wonk,
    Kev
    
17.3206LUNER::BROOKSYou down wit MSG ?Mon Feb 10 1992 15:055
    Grant Hill was the biggest difference between the 1990 team, and lasted
    years ... UNLV couldn't make him gag the way they did Hurley (remember
    how Hill brought the ball upcourt against the 'amoeba' defense, then
    gave it to Hurley once the ball was in the frontcourt ?) when he put
    the ball on the floor. He gives Coach K a ton of flexibilty ....
17.3207good game, thought LSU just might have done itCST17::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Mon Feb 10 1992 15:1213
    Scarey thought of how good Duke's gonna be after Hurley gets back.....
    			   |
    			   V
    			or better
    
    
    Shack
    
    Amazing, simply amazing!!!!!
    
    Kev
    
    
17.3208Googs will go 1st round but where ???SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Mon Feb 10 1992 15:1412
 Googs is the only real reason to watch NC State this year.   He had an
 incredible game against the Tar Heels but he's slumping now.   He's been
 playing too many minutes lately plus opposing defenses have been keying on
 him.   Consequently, State's gone into the tank since the Carolina win.
 
 In all honesty, I believe Googs has a decent NBA career in front of him. 
 If he continues this slump, he'll probably miss the lottery but instead
 will go late first-round like Rick Fox did lasted year.   If he catches
 some wind and gets hot again, his slot moves up.   He's 6-10 with a sweet
 outside J ... that alone perks up the ears of any NBA scout.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3209I had to root for somebody!!!JURAN::MCKAYMon Feb 10 1992 15:3612
    Was out last week and couldn't gloat but here's an I told you so
    for correctly picking the UNC upset over Duke.
    
    Hurley sips and will not even make the NBA.  First team all-american
    now that's funny.  He'll be an honorable mention because he plays
    for Duke and Vitale loves him and makes sure the viewing public 
    is aware of this fact.
    
    Gugliotta is the real deal.  A great pick for the Celts
    down in the bottom of the first round. 8*)
    
    Jimbo
17.3210Some things never change ...SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Mon Feb 10 1992 16:319
17.3211RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 10 1992 17:2032
    > Right ???
    
    Wrong.  I never predicted Duke would crash and burn without Hurley;
    only that there's no way on God's Green Earth that they're better
    without him.
    
    The media issue is unrelated.  They love Duke, no question.  A recent
    issue of The Sporting News gushes all over them - the kindof article
    that gives me an upset stomach.  
    
    I'll say this about the Nerds:
    
    1. They're *immensely* talented.  They pull Marty Clark off their bench
       and everybody sez 'Aw, a nice clean-cut overachieving Blue Devil'.
       Fack is, the kid was a McDonald's AA!  Kenny Blackeney was one of
       the Top 5 PG's outa HS, and he cain barely get any PT.  Grant Hill,
       Thomas Hill, Christian Laettner, Cherokee Parks ... they'll all 
       play NBA ball someday, and this doesn't even include the kid
       Meek who was about the 2nd best big-main outa HS last year who
       got hurt in a car crash!  (Parks was the best big man outa HS last
       year, BTW.)
    
    2. Duke still deserves to be #1.  Only a 2-point 'L' on the road
       against a team that played the game of their lives is nothing to
       be ashamed of , as CoachK said afterwards.  Also credit Duke with
       making no excuses after the 'L'.  No Weasel-like whining about the
       officiating.  They came, the played hard, they lost, and they left.
       No big deal.  (A very Carolina-like thing to do, BTW.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.3212Like maybe they earned the respect?ANGLIN::KIRKMANBack to shoveling snow again (Uugh)Mon Feb 10 1992 17:214
17.3213CUPMK::DEVLINEmployees and Kevin Only!Mon Feb 10 1992 17:298
Media darling?  Whining about media darling - from a TarHell fan?  

Oh my, what a belly laugh!!  Every time Dean Smith passes 
gas the media tries to capture it for later  use!!!

No THAT's RICH!

JD
17.3214It COULD be marketed too!CST17::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Mon Feb 10 1992 17:579
    JD,
    
    I can see it now - Buy Your Baggie of Dean-gas!  Help us stink out
    da joint!!!!!!
    
    Loved that!!!!!!
    
    Kev
    
17.3215ACC "Caught" Blue Handed Again ???SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Mon Feb 10 1992 18:1730
17.3216Crow? I've got *plenty* to eat on this BobKnight thing ... :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 10 1992 18:389
    re: .-1
    
    I stand by my statement that Duke cannot win an NCAA Championship
    without Bob Hurley.  The ACC Title is still there's to lose though,
    what with a 1-game lead over the 2nd place Heels, which might as well
    be two (2) since we're gonna chalk up an 'L' when we go to Cameron.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.321730311::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Mon Feb 10 1992 18:432
       What "Bob Knight thing" is that ? Did I miss something here?
                                      Denny
17.3218ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewMon Feb 10 1992 22:2325
    >a very good LSU team,
    
    LSU has spotty talent, shabby execution, and abominable coaching.
    Setting aside the Laettner vs. Shaq matchup (with was PF vs. C at
    center) I didn't consider this road game that big a test for the Duke 
    Heels.
     
    
    >They came.  They lost.  They left.  A very Carolina thing to do, BTW.
    
    The Star Hells came to Indy, they lost ignominiously with their faux
    HoF coach humiliating himself and all self-respecting college hoops
    fans in the process, then attacked a referee for making the call every
    body had anticipated, and scuffled with the police, and then whined all
    the way back to the Triangle.  
    
    A very Carolina thing to do, BTW.
    
    >Cherokee Parks was last year's top-rated big man.
    
    Except for the fack that Chris Webber and (Purdue prop48) Glenn
    Robinson were both rated higher than Parks.  This wouldn't count,
    ough, not where ACCrock is concerned...
    
    MrT
17.3219FWIW, AP puts Heels at #6 this week.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Feb 11 1992 12:1621
    re: Parks vs. Webber
    
    Both were ranked high - S&S lists both in their Top 7.  No way can you
    say Webber was clearly ranked higher than Parks, though some recruiting
    analysts no_doubt agreed.  (And others disagreed ...)
    
    I'll grant you that Meek was ranked lower than Webber though, although 
    not by much.
    
    
    re: Indy
    
    Spare me.  A_egomaniac referee who's dying of cancer decides to leave
    his mark on college basketball by humiliating a HoFer.  No team with
    pride would've let *that* episode slip by untested.  My only regret is
    that assistant coach Guthridge didn't slipped in a jab to the guys
    jaw that woulda brought the entire galaxy of stars into full vision
    before he slipped into unconsciousness.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3220CNTROL::CHILDSRodney Dangerfields&gt;The Dream TeamTue Feb 11 1992 12:3120
>    Spare me.  A_egomaniac referee who's dying of cancer decides to leave
>    his mark on college basketball by humiliating a HoFer.  No team with
>    pride would've let *that* episode slip by untested.  My only regret is
>    that assistant coach Guthridge didn't slipped in a jab to the guys
>    jaw that woulda brought the entire galaxy of stars into full vision
>    before he slipped into unconsciousness.
 
 how about you sparing us please. your faux hof'er whinny act and display
 is old and tire. It's there every game. He should have been tossed two games
 early in the tournment against Central Michigan when he had the gall to run
 out on to the court and point out the big wide body stud for CM that he felt 
 was pushing his guys around too much. He's as classless as Thompson. No wonder
 why they're such good buddies. Also his trained lackeys on the end of the
 bench jumping up and down and moaning every call is rediculous. Sure he gave
 Kansas credit last year but what choice did he have? His team was outplayed,
 he was outcoached and the world could easily see that. To have said anything 
 less would have been stupid....

 mike   
17.3221DYPSS1::ROPERBRoper DTN-433-4336Tue Feb 11 1992 12:595
    Chris, Parks was a distant third behind Weber and Robinson in every
    publication that I saw.  I don't remember any recruiting guru putting
    him in Weber's category.
    
    WILDCAT
17.3222ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewTue Feb 11 1992 13:0910
    So, Crockmeister...
    
    How ya doin' on cooking up your answers to those 3 fact-based sports-
    related question-batches?  You remember, the one from me sandwiched
    by two larger batches set forth by His Supreme Analyst, Cap.
    
    And this "problem" you acquired with Bob in the Sheet Sheet, is this
    another teaser that you're never going to deliver on?
    
    MrT
17.3223Still bakin' that bird ???SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Tue Feb 11 1992 17:2211
 In this year's "ACC Basketball Handbook '91-'92", Cherokee Parks is
 described as the "best big man to come out of Southern California since
 Bill Walton."   Period.
 
 In the same publication, Chris Webber was regarded as the country's top
 recruit and Juwan Howard was called "arguably the best big man recruit in
 the country."
 
 So ends another chapter in "As The Soup Spins" ...
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3224The bird has been baked, eaten, and picked clean Ketch.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Feb 11 1992 17:3311
    Gee, didn't know the ACC Handbook encompassed *every* recruiting source
    in the USA.  Anyway this is strictly rathole material.  Parks was
    HIGHLY recruited, as was Meek.  Duke has McDonald AA's who aren't even
    getting in games, which highlights our 'W' over them cause everybody
    acknowledges we're slow and have lots of holes.  (Dickie Vitale said
    during the Tech @ Maryland game he thought Dean was having one of his
    greatest coaching years ever and that Montross was starting to play up
    to his mammoth rep outa HS ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3225all Hara SmithnasCNTROL::CHILDSRodney Dangerfields&gt;The Dream TeamTue Feb 11 1992 17:384
 Vitale, Packer, Maguire, ACChris what's the difference?

 mike
17.3226ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPynchon,Rushdie,Berger,IrvingTue Feb 11 1992 17:404
    You said Cherokee was the top rated big main and you were wrong
    for gawd's SAKES main just oncet admit you were wrong willya.
    
    MrT
17.3227DUGROS::ROSSVote Bush if you're ignorantTue Feb 11 1992 18:1019
    > Montross was starting to play up
    >to his mammoth rep outa HS ...)
    
    Based on what?   His 3-9 FG shooting in the Duke win?  Or his not
    starting the following game {due to reaction from tetanus shot} and
    single digit scoring/boarding?    An objective analyst would expect
    Montross to put up numbers like 15 ppg / 8 rpg this year and progress
    to 22 ppg  12 rpg as a senior.    
    
    Put Montross' first two years up against guys like Ewing, Mourning,
    O'Neal, etc. and you can be sure that Eric is not playing up to his
    rep at all...   He's slowly turning into Joe Wolf... 
    
    I'll be very interested to see how Dean manages the PT between Montross
    and Salvadori if Salvadori continues to display better offensive
    ability and the shot-blocking presence.
    
    I'm telling you, Montross would have been much better off going to IU,
    playing 30 minutes a game.  He and Damon would be a great combination.
17.3228DUGROS::ROSSJ.Dahmer,Tyson,Noriega,MrTTue Feb 11 1992 18:158
  > <<<  ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSY "Pynchon,Rushdie,Berger,Irving" >>>
    
    	Pynchon = Dean Smith
    	Rushdie = Billy Tubbs
        Berger  = Lou Carnesseca
    	Irving  = Bob Knight
    
    Three are overrated, overhyped and the other is simply the best.
17.3229CNTROL::CHILDSRodney Dangerfields&gt;The Dream TeamTue Feb 11 1992 18:265
When one looks at the progress Matt Nover has made at IU, I shutter to think
how good Montross could be if he had made the right decision....

 mike
17.3230shirley is an honor, 'specially from Doug!CST17::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Tue Feb 11 1992 18:468
    Doug,
    
    On behalf of LOUIEEEEE, I'm proud to accept your award naming him as
    "simply the best"!
    
    Thank you,
    Kev_for_LOUIEEEEEE
    
17.3231Dire predictions by DougRoss fail to materialize. :^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Feb 11 1992 19:018
    re: Ross
    
    Still stickin' by your early-season predictions that Carolina would
    finish out of the Top20 and that Dean's Sweet16 streak would
    discontinue?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3232Have the courage of your convictions to make a predictionDUGROS::ROSSJ.Dahmer,Tyson,Noriega,MrTTue Feb 11 1992 19:1016
    Sweet Sixteen ends this year...  If I said carolina would not finish
    top twenty {don't remember}, then I'll stick with it.   How many losses
    would it take for them to drop from 8 to 21 over the next four weeks?
    Four?   Three?    They're helped by the enormous parity this year and
    especially by the Big East being down in terms of good teams.
    
    Okay, I answered your question, now answer mine.  
    
    Who would you rather have on the Tar Heels - Montross, Rodney Rogers,
    or Grant Hill?    
    
    Is the party line now that Montross is a project?
    
    Where do you expect UNC to end up in the polls and what round of the
    tournament will they reach? 
    
17.3233Your mistake is judging him solely on statistics ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Feb 11 1992 19:1113
    re: Montross
    
    Let me reiterate what I said earlier: How can anybody possibly fault
    Eric Montross for his gritty, gutty, and thoroughly impressive 
    performance against the #1 ranked Blue Devils?  He led the squad
    in rebounding.  He intimidated on defense.  He made two (2) key
    defensive plays in the final minute on Laettner to secure the 'W'.
    And on top of this, he had to leave the game *TWICE* to receive
    stitches to close up huge gashes in his head and face, respectively.
    
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3234ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPynchon,Rushdie,Berger,IrvingTue Feb 11 1992 19:1510
    >DUGROS::ROSS "J.Dahmer,Tyson,Noriega,MrT"
    
    I resent this.  One has bad dietary habits and worse table manners,
    and the other a bad complexion.  I'm pleased with the Tyson comparison,
    though.  (Blush)
    
    Hey ACC Doug, one a these days when you have the time and maybe the
    interest maybe you cain drop by 15, you remember, your *home*.
    
    MrT
17.3235easy to play D when you can hit em...CNTROL::CHILDSRodney Dangerfields&gt;The Dream TeamTue Feb 11 1992 19:168
 I'm not faulting Montross one bit for his play against Duke but like
 Doug said days ago 8 points and 3 rebounds id hardly dominating a game
 as Packer/Vitale were gushing. Please spare me the two great defensive
 plays at the end crap will ya, cause anywhere else but the DeanDome those
 were fouls....

 mike
17.3236ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPynchon,Rushdie,Berger,IrvingTue Feb 11 1992 19:1812
    >Still stickin' by your early-season prediction that Carolina would
    >finish out of the Top20 and that Dean's Sweet16 streak would
    >discontinue?
    
    You read this and come away with the feeling that all he cares about
    is being highly ranked and suffering a most excellent loss in the
    Sweet16 - you so seldom hear the "C" or "T" words spring form his
    lips (except for that Almost Close kind he and WitcHunt revere so much, 
    you know, the cheep kind).
    
    MrT
    
17.3237Good one, Chris ... we'll keep it in mind for youSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Tue Feb 11 1992 19:2510
17.3238Yes, I think UNC will reach the Sweet 16.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Feb 11 1992 19:2726
    re: predictions
    
    It would take some work on Carolina's part to not finish in the Top20
    at this point.  I doubt you'd find anybody who wouldn't take your money
    on this particular bet.  Still 4 of the next 5 games are on the road,
    including trips to Clemson, Virginia, Maryland, and Florida State. 
    Other games include State and Tech at home, and [gulp!] Duke, away.  
    
    The key though is how well this team is (or isn't) coming together and
    improving.  Montross and Salvadori are certainly doing there part in
    the middle.  This is one of the strenghs of the team as anyone can see. 
    Outside shooting continues to be a question mark once you get past
    Hubert Davis, but on the plus side, backup PG doesn't seem to be a big
    problem and Brian Reese is starting to show tremendous potential. 
    Surprising George Lynch has slumped somewhat, but I wouldn't bank on
    that trend continuing indefinitely.  Phelps has had a great year, but
    still hasn't shown he can knock down the outside shot.
    
    Overall I'm pleased.  In fact, extremely pleased.  17 W's, 2nd in the
    ACC, knocking on the door of the Top 5 - nothing to sneeze at.  This
    team is capable of going far, but offensively Davis is gonna have to
    shoulder a heavy load, Phelps will have to hit a '3' occasionally, and
    Brian Reese is gonna have to start putting up some points.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3239Big win for Lady HoosSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Wed Feb 12 1992 12:4713
 The Wahoos women's team got its oh-so-sweet revenge against the Maryland
 Terrapins lasted night winning 75-74 before a packed Cole Field House. 
 The total attendance (14,500+) was more than Maryland's women drew all
 lasted season.
 
 Dawn Staley and Heather Burge were the Hoos' scoring leaders.
 
 Lady Hoos should climb back into the No 1 slot and will most likely still
 be there when the ACC Women's Tournament comes to my hometown Rock Hill,
 South Carolina, in early March.   Gonna be taking the MicroHUNTs to see a
 few of the games ... should be a blast.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3240So true, so true.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Feb 12 1992 13:5429
    > -< Good one, Chris ... we'll keep it in mind for you >-
 
    > Great words of wisdom to live by nexted time you trot out the same old
    > threadbare Snuff Stats ...  730+ wins, 11 straight Sweet 16's, 10-outta-17
    > big men, ad nauseum ... 
    
    Ah, so true.  Numbers only tell a fraction of the story where Dean
    Smith is concerned, believe me.  The integrity.  The loyalty.  The
    innovations.  The class.  The sportsmanship.  All of these are what
    seperates Dean from, say,  Jerry Tarkanian or Eddie Sutton.
    [Thanks for the belt-high fastball, Ketch.  :^)]
 
    > I'd take either Grant Hill or Rodney Rogers in a heartbeat over Montross. 
 
    So would I.  And I'd take Michael Jordan over either Hill or Rogers.
    What's your point?
    
    
    > Hell, I'd take Kevin Salvadori over Montross.
    
    Who cares?  They're both developing nicely and represent one of the
    strengths of this years team.  It's too bad they can't play on the 
    floor together more, but if Salvadori continues to blossom and Montross
    maintains his steady improvement, George Lynch may get his wish to
    move out to the wing next year after all.  (Perhaps moving Reese to
    the backcourt.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3241ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPynchon,Rushdie,Berger,IrvingWed Feb 12 1992 13:5511
    re .3238
    
    Hey Crockmeister, what's your prediction for the Star Hells when it
    REALLY counts (especially in the case a a Champless conference)...
    in the Tourney.
    
    1-for-30 Snuffy is way overdue for a Title what with all the great 
    recruits.  Are you lusting for a Title or are you merely hankering for
    a Excellent Loss in the Sweet16?
    
    MrT
17.3242Agreed plus ...SCNDRL::HUNTWelcome back, Calvin &amp; Hobbes !!!Wed Feb 12 1992 13:587
We've been saying it for years that there's both more *and* less to the 
Snuffer than the raw numbers imply.   His grad rates and program integrity 
speak much louder volumes than his numbers ... 

... but so do his annual non-peaks.   Loud and all-too-clear.

Bob Hunt 
17.3243ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPynchon,Rushdie,Berger,IrvingWed Feb 12 1992 15:047
    Program integrity?
    
    You wanna talk program integrity?  Wrist-slapped woman-beaters?
    Talk to me about that.  Attacked ref by a coach no less?  My what
    fine integrity you praise so!  Police scuffles?  Integrity personified.
    
    Big10 Tom 
17.3244Good point !!!SCNDRL::HUNTWelcome back, Calvin &amp; Hobbes !!!Wed Feb 12 1992 15:2514
Good counterpoint, T.  By "program integrity", I was referring, of course, 
to Snuff's squeaky clean compliance with NCAA regs.   He deserves credit 
for that ... course with his astonishing skill at recruiting and his tube 
over-exposure, he hardly needs to consider cheating.   Be the same thing as 
Nixon deciding to put a coupla mikes in the Dems' party HQ building.

As far as other extracurricular civil and/or criminal matters are 
concerned, Snuff is notoriously lenient with his players and his inflated 
stature in Chapel Hill affords him and his players a layer of insulation 
not generally available to Joe Fan.

Not to mention that he's violated out-of-state vehicle speed limits.

Bob Hunt 
17.3245WMOIS::COOK_TSkysurfinonmyBoogieBoardWed Feb 12 1992 15:366
    re .3236
    I read this note, and come away feeling the same about the gushing over
    of John (Big Bad John)!
    
    Conan
    
17.3246Duke @ Georgia TechRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Feb 12 1992 15:4520
    re: .-1
    
    Dean was not involved in any police scuffles, only the ass't coach and
    the players.  I'm sure he didn't approve of this, BTW.  (Though I did.)
    
    
    Intriguing matchup in the ACC tonight with Duke visiting Atlanta.
    Tech has been struggling mightily of late, but a buzzer-beating 'W'
    over Maryland Sunday just might get them going again.  This game will
    be a real test for Duke without Hurley, since Travis Best is small and
    quick, although reports show him battling strep throat.  Tech also has
    the kind of front line that can give Duke problems, assuming they can
    approach the potential they showed early in the season that somehow
    seems to have vanished of late.
    
    Should be interesting.  I'll go out on a limb and predict a Tech upset
    'W'.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3247I'd hoped for at least an emotional effort ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 13 1992 12:3725
    Disapointing effort by Georgia Tech last night at home against Duke. 
    The disapointment stems not from the fact that they lost - Duke lost at
    Carolina but played their butts off.  Tech didn't.  
    
    Duke looked vulnerable the whole game.  A little slow, missing outside
    shots, not particularly aggressive.  How did the Jackets respond?  By
    turning the ball over countless times (12 in the first half alone) and
    simply getting *nothing* out of their offense.  How many times did this
    team break down offensively and end up with Barry throwing up some kind
    of high-difficulty shot?  Lots.
    
    Supposedly Malcolm Mackey is a player.  I've seen flashes of excellence
    (like last year in the DeanDome) but I'm becoming skeptical.  Geiger
    has been a major disapointment, but he at least looked *alive* last
    night.  But perhaps blaming these two (2) big guys is a mistake.  The
    Tech offense seems completely incapable of getting the ball inside! 
    Maybe it's having a frosh PG.  Maybe Cremins needs to retool his
    offense.  Whatever the case, they simply aren't getting good shots at
    the basket, and they sure don't get anything off the transition game.
    
    Too bad, cause this pretty much signs, seals, and delivers the ACC
    title (small "t") to Duke.  :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3248ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJihad vs McWorld (Tyrant Rexus)Thu Feb 13 1992 13:339
    >I'm sure he didn't approve of this,
    
    Forget what you're sure of.  Had it been any other coach it woulda 
    been a scandal cuz their behavior after the game was scandalous, so
    the question is did Snuffer deal with the behavior or was it another
    one a them mystery wrist-slappings like with his woman-beating starting
    guard.
    
    MrT
17.3249Don't worry about the speck in Dean's eye when Bob's got a boardRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 13 1992 13:4218
    re: .-1
    
    Question:	Did Bob deal with Bob when he punched that LSU fan, or
    		was it another one a them mystery wrist-slappings?
    
    Question:	Did Bob deal with Bob when he punched that Puerto Rican
    		cop, or was it another one a them mystery wrist-slappings?
    
    Question:	Did Bob deal with Bob when he did all those nasty things
    		documented in 'Season on the Brink'?
    
    Question:	Did Bob deal with Bob when he humiliated the USA by
    		forfeiting a game with the then-dreaded Communists?
    
    Just curious,
    
    
    - ACC Chris 
17.3250CNTROL::CHILDSbig imagination, better than real lifeThu Feb 13 1992 13:4713
 I'd say the answer to all of your questions is yes Bob did. He's much more
 in control of his emotions these days. Also your incidents all include other
 party's who may have or may not have provoked Bob to his reactions.

 One thing for sure he doesn't allow his players to run the asylum no matter
 how big a star they may be. Can Snuffy say the same? Nope!!

 Can Snuffy stop whinning? Nope! 

 Can Snuffy coach once they blow the whistle? Nope!

 nuff said
17.3251SCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Thu Feb 13 1992 13:474
    re:-2 by ACCCrisp 
      There he goes again, asking questions when he won't answer the ones
    aimed at him.
                                 Denny
17.3252or perhaps sea bouys?????CST17::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Thu Feb 13 1992 14:0522
    Bob
    	Bob
    	    Bob
    	  	Bob
    		   Bob	
    			Bob
    
    			     Bob
    
    Whatcha talking about Chris?  A halloween apply-grabbing contest or one
    of those rear car window statues with the red eye balls??????
    
    Sheesh!!!!!!
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    with_a_flexible_neck,
    K
     e
      v
    
17.3253A little nibble of the bird perhaps ???SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Feb 13 1992 14:5013
17.3254Duke's gotta lose at least 2 for UNC to have title shotRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 13 1992 16:0712
    re: .-1
    
    > A little nibble of the bird perhaps ???
    
    I don't recall saying they'd crash and burn.  I did say that their
    ACC title (small "t") *could* be in jepordy.  Unfortunately due to
    Tech's no-show last night it appears I was being optimistic.
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3255ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJihad vs McWorld (Tyrant Rexus)Thu Feb 13 1992 17:143
    A little nibble of the bird?  Haw haw haw grate line hee heee.
    
    MrT
17.3256The Energizer Dervish ???SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Feb 13 1992 18:108
17.3257ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJihad vs McWorld (Tyrant Rexus)Thu Feb 13 1992 18:3711
    >ACC title (small "t")
    
    What's this?  Duke'll have their point guard back in time for
    the Almost Close (3 day) Championsip "season."  Or, do you speak
    of a 2nd form of "T/title?"  If that's the case, then there's NO
    T/title, cuz you cain't have both, or must it be one or the other,
    then if it was some mixture of the two maybe Sagarin runs the 
    numbers and there's a 3rd T/title form, sorta a daststistickal (tm)
    one, and then if there were three...
    
    MrT
17.3258ACC Tourney Title < ACC Regular Season Title, IMO.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 13 1992 18:447
    MorT occasionally stumbles on a good point.  The league *should*
    formally recognize the regular season winner.  Dean's been pushing for
    this for years.  Winning the regular season title is more difficult
    than winning the Tournament and should be rewarded appropriately.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3259holding a empty bagANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJihad vs McWorld (Tyrant Rexus)Thu Feb 13 1992 18:465
    Ah ha!  So there *are* two T/titles!!  Would the one T/title be
    sorta like when them gubmint big-shots are recognized praised and
    paid and have oak-paneled offices but, alas, are "without portfolio?"
    
    MrT
17.3260So we'll just call you "mrt" from now onSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Feb 13 1992 19:2112
 Steel barkin', T ???   
 
 How many times do you need to hear it that the ACC fans (and the NCAA
 Tournament Committee) put more emphasis on the regular season results than
 they do the ACC Tournament ???
 
 We've agreed to *ALL* your counterpoints.  You just refuse to accept the
 fact that it's *FUN* and we like it.   Sorta like one of Bush's Puritans. 
 The dread feeling that someone somewhere outside the Midwest is actually
 enjoying 8 basketball games in 4 days !!!  Sinful.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3261enjoy (twice, I guess)ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJihad vs McWorld (Tyrant Rexus)Thu Feb 13 1992 19:335
    Based on the hunger for cheapness, perversion, and second chances
    is Almost Close land Fay Vincent's marketing gurus have determined
    that when Charlotte gets its team it will be a ALmost franchise.
    
    MrT
17.3262Questions, revisitedSTRATA::CAPPELThu Feb 13 1992 19:4229
Here is the measure to prove ACChris's objectivity, let's see if one
question is answered objectively.

1. Is there any program in the country that has consistently had more 
   'raw talent' over the last 20 years than North Carolina?

2. Should Dean Smith have won more than one title with the talent that
   he has had over the last 20 years?

3. Have coaching mistakes that Dean Smith made led directly to crucial
   losses(i.e Going to the 4-corners too early against Marquette in 77'
   or not benching Rick Fox even briefly in the loss last year to Kansas.)?

4. Has Dean Smith made the same coaching mistakes on a consistent basis
   or does he learn from his mistakes?(please provide examples)

5. Have Dean Smith coached teams underachieved in the NCAA Tourney or
   were all those 1st round defeats just a dream?

6. Without using obvious and weak excuses(injuries, hot teams), please
   explain why Dean Smith coached teams have lost so many games in the
   NCAA Tourney when they were the obvious favorite?
                   
7. What are you own personal criticisms of Dean Smith and the Carolina
   program(you must have some, no one is perfect in this world)?

Does anyone else have questions to add to this list....
    
17.3263DYPSS1::ROPERBRoper DTN-433-4336Thu Feb 13 1992 19:455
    One more question:
    
    n: What's Dean's views on the breakup of the Soviet Union?
    
    WILDCAT
17.3264FRETZ::HEISERmy parents think I'm in collegeThu Feb 13 1992 19:473
>    n: What's Dean's views on the breakup of the Soviet Union?
    
    He barely knows anything about the Teamsters!
17.3265All I cain say is "Condolences". :^|RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 14 1992 12:2014
    Let's all hope and pray that Mrs.Bob"Ketch"Hunt (Cindy) forced her
    hubbie to watch the Olympics, LA Law, Alfred Hitchcock Presents, or
    *any* other show other than what ESPN had on last night in the 9-11
    time slot.  (FSU @ UVa)
    
    Worst case, if he did happen to see some of the game, let's hope in the
    last :60 seconds he had to get a uHunt a glass of water, make a
    baffroom run, or grab a brewskie from the fridge - *ANYTHING* but watch
    the tragic events unfold on the Cavs home floor.
    
    I wouldn't_a wished this on anybody ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3266BSS::JCOTANCHFri Feb 14 1992 13:043
    Looks like "FS" doesn't stand for "football school" after all.
    
    Joe
17.3267The saga continuesSCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxes!Fri Feb 14 1992 13:232
    Hey Chris, you musta missed Note 17.3262. Why am I not surprised?
                                        Denny
17.3268Another fack-based question-batch sits unopenedANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJihad vs McWorld (Tyrant Rexus)Fri Feb 14 1992 13:551
    
17.3269Questions asked and answered. (Again.) Now can we move on ?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 14 1992 14:0373
> 1. Is there any program in the country that has consistently had more 
>   'raw talent' over the last 20 years than North Carolina?

Highly subjective question that's impossible to answer definitively.
If you want me to bad mouth our past players ala MrT though, forget it.
I like 'em all - follow 'em all whenever possible too.  And I will state
unequivocably that Dean Smith develops that "raw talent" better than
any coach in the USA, *bar none*.  


> 2. Should Dean Smith have won more than one title with the talent that
>   he has had over the last 20 years?

Apparently you've already answered question #1 for yourself, since you're
assuming we did have the best talent in the USA over the last 20 years.
(This clouded objectivity highlights why my answering these questions is
ridiculous.  I'm only doing it to get all you Weasels off my back.)

In any case the answer is 'No'.  NCAA Titles are very difficult to attain.
You must be both lucky and good, and it's already been proven that the
'best' team in the country rarely wins the thing.  There's only been two (2)
times in the past twenty years we've been the 'best' team heading into
the tourney ('82 and '84) and we won 50% of these.  


> 3. Have coaching mistakes that Dean Smith made led directly to crucial
>   losses(i.e Going to the 4-corners too early against Marquette in 77'
>   or not benching Rick Fox even briefly in the loss last year to Kansas.)?

No. Monday morning quarterbacking at its worst.  The 4C offense *rarely* let
Dean down, especially with Phil Ford running it.  I can't even reall how
many times Rick Fox had poor shooting games only to get hot and lead Carolina
on to a 'W' with clutch shooting the last 5 minutes.


> 4. Has Dean Smith made the same coaching mistakes on a consistent basis
>   or does he learn from his mistakes?(please provide examples)

He learns from his mistakes.  Last year we desperately needed a TO during
a GaTech run at home.  Dean didn't call one, cause he considers calling
a timeout a sign of weakness and poor preperation on his part.  He learned
though that last years team needed a TO to reorient itself, and in an
*exact* same situation several weeks later called a TO during a NC State
run.  Not a big deal, but you wanted an example, so go 'way.


> 5. Have Dean Smith coached teams underachieved in the NCAA Tourney or
>   were all those 1st round defeats just a dream?

Nothing like a nice, Objectively asked question eh?  No, he hasn't underachieved
in the NCAA Tournament.  He's won more tourney games than any coach in
history and has set a record for consecutive Sweet 16 appearances.


> 6. Without using obvious and weak excuses(injuries, hot teams), please
>   explain why Dean Smith coached teams have lost so many games in the
>   NCAA Tourney when they were the obvious favorite?

Upsets happen.  It's the name-of-the-game in the NCAA Tournament.  We lost
to a team that scored more points.  Is this an excuse?

                   
> 7. What are you own personal criticisms of Dean Smith and the Carolina
>   program(you must have some, no one is perfect in this world)?

Already been addressed in this note.  (.997 I think.)  To sum it up,
Dean's strength is The System.  His weakness is The System.  You can't
have one without the other.  From a personal standpoint I find Dean a man
of the highest integrity who I look up to immensely.  


- ACC Chris    
    
17.3270results pleaseDEMING::MCKAYFri Feb 14 1992 16:125
    Maybe I missed it but
    
    	Who won the Mutumbo vs. Johnson poll that I voted in??
    
    Jimbo
17.3271:^(RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Feb 14 1992 16:259
    re: .-1
    
    Unable to post the results Jimbo, due to threats of lawsuits and
    mail messages to personnel.
    
    (Hint though: The voting wasn't close.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3272It's clearly obvious then, that Johnson won, and rightfully so...SASE::SZABOIt's the New Mother Nature taking overFri Feb 14 1992 16:471
    
17.3273Unbe-freakin'-lievableSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Fri Feb 14 1992 17:5825
 Okay, make a note of this ... Here's my first official "What Did I Ever Do
 To Deserve This?" note for the 1991-92 Wahoos basketball season.
 
              *** What Did I Ever Do To Deserve This ??? ***
 
 At home against Florida State ... down 64-63 ... with 0:02 seconds left. 
 Wahoos had played stifling defense and were crashing the offensive boards
 as well as they have all year.
 
 Bryant Stith goes up for the game-winning shot and gets the generous
 two-shot foul call.   Two-time (heading for third) All-ACC first teamer,
 ACC's leading free throw shooter at 86%, the team's unquestioned heart and
 soul, Top 10 all-time ACC scorer, sure to have his #20 retired in a few
 short weeks ...
 
 With the ball on the foul line and the game in his hands ... The 'Noles
 were cooked and they knew it.
 
 ... and he clanks them both.
 
 I freakin' give up.  Why me ???   What did I ever do to deserve this ???  
 Been a good boy all my life.  Go to church, donate to the PBA, don't drown
 kittens or boil bunny rabbits ... yet I have to suffer like this.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3274FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Fri Feb 14 1992 18:0216
    Simple, Bob.  The Tar Heel Gremlins are coming out to haunt you for all
    your anti-Baby Blue diatribes.  You have two paths to righteousness:
    
    1.  Declare your undying love for the Heels.
    2.  Go against your Philadelphia-area roots and help me cheer the Minutemen
    onto victory over the Temple Owls on Sunday.
    
    HTH,
    
    Ninj
    
    PS - It must be something in the local air that the two teams against
    which my alma mater has done the poorest in its history - Delaware in
    football (and yes, we have a poorer winning percentage against them in
    football than we do against Boston College) and Temple in basketball
    are both in or near Philly
17.3275FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Fri Feb 14 1992 18:032
    On my previous, choices 1 and 2 are either/or.  You don't have to do
    both.
17.3276ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJihad vs McWorld (Tyrant Rexus)Fri Feb 14 1992 18:0610
    >What did I do to deserve this?
    
    1) You are being punished (and righteously so) for your episode
       with the cupcake-hyped grid 'Liers.
    
    2) You got halfway up on the bandwagon of the cupcake-hyped UNCC
       hoops squad and were talked down by me just in time to dodge
       what woulda been a embarassing bullet.
    
    MrT
17.3277Welcome aboard Bob! I always knew you were a heel.AXIS::ROBICHAUDCrashCansecoStrikesAgainFri Feb 14 1992 18:071
    
17.3278For you NinjSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Sat Feb 15 1992 00:263
 Go Minutemen.  Whatta team.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3279repent heathen !LUNER::BROOKSYou down wit MSG ?Mon Feb 17 1992 13:369
    Come on Bob ... try :
    
    1) the Seminoles were hot ....
    
    2) Stith CHOKED !
    
    3) [Insert UNC bash, but apply it to UVa}
    
    It's for your own good buddy ...
17.3280C'mon, Doc, I don't make excuses ...SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Mon Feb 17 1992 13:5723
17.3281Another 'L' for Lefty. :^)RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Feb 17 1992 13:5822
    Fascinating story in this weeks PoopSheet having to do with the
    recruitment of Ed Geth, a top 50ish player from Virginia who selected
    to attend The University of North Carolina, where somebody he'll be
    axed to play PF for the Tar Heels.  
    
    Seems Lefty Driesell went after this kid *HARD*, even going so far as
    to send young Ed a letter in which he stated he would make a terrible
    mistake to go to UNC once it appeared Ed had made his decision to do
    that very thing.  The Lefthander went on to state that Geth would "only"
    be another horse in DeanSmith's stable and that the only reason
    Carolina wanted him in the first place was cause of his excellent
    academic record.  (How *dare* Dean recruit a good student!  Bad Dean!
    Bad!!)  
    
    Well things backfired big-time on Lefty, never a master of the public
    relations game to put things mildly.  Seems Geth was *highly* offended
    by Driesell's approach and went public with the letter!  It appeared
    in print in a Norfolk newspaper, resulting in a PR *disaster* for
    Lefty.  (Boo hoo!)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3282CTHQ3::LEARYBeano:PreventGasBeforeItStartsMon Feb 17 1992 14:045
    Negative recruiting'l git ya eventually, Lefty.
    Ya sure he has no ties to Miami football??
    
    MikeL
    
17.3283Why is telling the truth a PR disaster?SHALOT::MEDVIDEarth Mo FoMon Feb 17 1992 14:091
    
17.3284Lots goin' on ...RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Feb 17 1992 14:1453
    Miscellaneous items:
    
    o Not that it matters that much, but the technical foul that was called
      on North Carolina in the 2nd half of the Duke game wasn't called on
      Dean Smith, but UNC's fiesty assistant coach Bill Guthridge.  After
      a Duke player (Laettner) touched the ball again after a made Blue
      Devil basket Guthridge yelled to the official "Where's the
      Technical?", whereupon the overly sensitive referee rang Bill up with
      one!  
    
      Unreal.  The NCAA needs to take a look at their stupid rule that
      states that once a player from either team touches the ball after
      a made basket *both* teams are warned and the next offense by either
      team is a technical.  It's not working because 1) It's blatantly
      unfair to punish a team for not violating a rule, and 2) It's
      not being inforced in any way, shape, or fashion.
    
    o Is it merely coincidence that the two (2) teams in the ACC who are
      considered the biggest underachievers (UVa and GaTech) are also 
      two (2) with rookie PG's?  I think not, highlighting just how 
      important that position is.  
    
    o Picking 1st team ACC this year goes beyond difficult and into the
      realm of impossible.  Some *very* top-shelf players will have to
      be left off.
    
    o Right now the ACC appears to have a relatively solid four (4) teams
      for the tourney (Duke,UNC,FSU,Wake) with Tech on the bubble and UVa
      trying to get on the bubble.
    
    o Wednesday in Virginia will be a very, very difficult night for
      Carolina.  The Cavs will be playing like mother bears whose cubs
      are being taken away.  Like Terry Holland said during the Tech game
      Saturday, when you're on the bubble you've gotta play *every* game
      like an NCAA Tournament game.  The downside of this is that by the
      end of the season you're players are wiped out physically (cause
      you can't afford to sub as much) and mentally (cause every game is
      a must win).  
    
    o Grant Hill is making people forget about Bobby Hurley, but don't be
      fooled.  The Nerds had a good win @ LSU, but the Tigers are
      overrated.  (The hapless Georgia Bulldogs went in a few days later
      and came away with a 'W'.)  They then played equally Georgia's other
      hapless team, Georgia Tech, and followed that up with a win over the
      reeling Wufpack.  Duke *cannot* win_a NCAA Title without Hurley, but
      that won't be an issue cause he's due back March 1.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
    
    
17.3285BSS::JCOTANCHMon Feb 17 1992 14:328
>    Negative recruiting'l git ya eventually, Lefty.
>    Ya sure he has no ties to Miami football??
    
    No, he hasn't won enough national titles.  
    
    :^)
    Joe
     
17.3286HAHa, touche, dudeCTHQ3::LEARYBeano:PreventGasBeforeItStartsMon Feb 17 1992 14:391
    
17.3287Poop Sheet rags on Driesell ... same old, same oldSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Mon Feb 17 1992 14:5916
 Why does "The Poop Sheet" like to bash The Lefthander so often ???  
 There's almost no axe left to grind yet the rag does it anyway.   
 
 Snuffy resorts to all kind of effective recruiting techniques to snare his
 studs.   He writes letters to kids, he visits mom's living room for coffee
 and homemade chocolate chip cookies, he has Michael Jordan send a signed
 8x10 glossy to Junior and so on and so forth.   And Krzyzewski's success
 down the road has pushed Snuff harder in recent years than he'd care to
 admit.   
 
 Driesell uses *different* techniques but somehow that difference alone
 makes Saint Snuffy just a little more holy.  And now we'll get the same
 tired old refrain how everyone else uses "negative recruiting" and Snuff
 is all by himself on the moral high road.  Ho-hum.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3288Hill ain't making us forget what you said, however ...SCNDRL::HUNTWelcome back, Calvin &amp; Hobbes !!!Mon Feb 17 1992 16:0122
17.3289You gonna defend Lefty Driesell now Ketch?RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Feb 17 1992 16:1710
    re: The "Poop" on Lefty
    
    Actually the recruiting tidbit appeared in what was otherwise a fairly 
    complimentary article on Driesell.  The fact that he negatively recruited 
    the kid is a matter of public record, since the letter was later
    published in the newspaper.  It's up to the individual at this point
    to determine whether his comments were fair or not.  (NOT!  Heh heh!!)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3290Very telling of you...SHALOT::MEDVIDEarth Mo FoMon Feb 17 1992 16:448
>    Actually the recruiting tidbit appeared in what was otherwise a fairly 
>    complimentary article on Driesell.  
    
    So, Mr. Objective, you just decided to take it out of context yourself
    then, eh?  Hmmmmmmm.
    
    	--dan'l
    
17.3291Setting it straight ...SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Mon Feb 17 1992 16:4812
 No, I'm not defending Charles "Lefty" Driesell.  Far from it.   I just
 wanted to make sure we avoided yet another Dean Gush.   That stuff causes
 cancer in lab mice and I was just concerned for the health of my fellow
 noters.
 
 Everybody recruits differently and if Snuffy qualifies for sainthood for
 one thing and one thing only, it is for his recruiting *results* and not
 for his recruiting techniques.  *NO* one in the college recruiting biz is
 sanctified on technique alone.   It's a disgustingly sloppy process and
 Snuff pigs out better than most.  He just does it with a bib on.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3292They only want you for your brain, kid...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Feb 17 1992 16:588
    
    I will admit that if Lefty was indeed telling the kid that UNC only
    wanted him because he's a good student that that's pretty damn sleazy.
    In the final analysis (unless the kid's another Michael Jordan or
    something), what else is there?
    
    glenn
    
17.3293rathole alert?CST17::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Mon Feb 17 1992 17:097
    Sorta like walking up to Racquel Welch and saying you'd like to have
    an intellectual discussion with her????
    
    yeah, right....
    
    Kev
    
17.3294Why not applaude Dean for his Integrity instead?RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Feb 17 1992 17:419
    > I just wanted to make sure we avoided yet another Dean Gush.
    
    No indeedy, wouldn't want that to happen.  Far better to rush to the
    sleazebag Lefty Driesell's defense.
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3295ACCrock falls down and goes boom (reel bad too)ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewMon Feb 17 1992 17:45126
            
>> 1. Is there any program in the country that has consistently had more 
>>   'raw talent' over the last 20 years than North Carolina?

>I will state
>unequivocably that Dean Smith develops that "raw talent" better than
>any coach in the USA, *bar none*.  

Of course, this begs the central question about how one cain recruit the
most raw talent and develop it better than anyone (bar none!) and steal
end up with one paltry trophy over three decades... 

... the question being "what's the conflict between player development
and winning Titles?"

>> 2. Should Dean Smith have won more than one title with the talent that
>>   he has had over the last 20 years?

>In any case the answer is 'No'.  

Unless you declare yourself great enter the HoF and name a arena after 
joeself (not to mention letting hundreds a blue chippers morosely leave
Star Hell U. sans Title) - then the answer is a resounding 'Yes'.  [sic]

>NCAA Titles are very difficult to attain.

So is that dangling "G" string.

>You must be both lucky and good, 

Over a 30 year sample the luck evens out; with the kinda talent and alleged
development we must presume the players were better than good... that leaves
one alternative explanation for Snuffy's sad shortfall.

>and it's already been proven that the
>'best' team in the country rarely wins the thing.  

No it hasn't.

>There's only been two (2)
>times in the past twenty years we've been the 'best' team heading into
>the tourney ('82 and '84) and we won 50% of these.  

Star Hell U. has been consistently in the top5 more than anybody over the
past 30 years.  I'd guess that they've racked up more #1 seeds than anybody.

And anyway being 'one of the best' is what defines a clear Title shot to
which any self-respecting coach (sorry Snuffer!) must be held to.  Polls
are after all only best guess estimates... that's why they hold the tourney,
remember?  It's called a test.

>> 3. Have coaching mistakes that Dean Smith made led directly to crucial
>>   losses(i.e Going to the 4-corners too early against Marquette in 77'
>>   or not benching Rick Fox even briefly in the loss last year to Kansas.)?

>No. Monday morning quarterbacking at its worst.  The 4C offense *rarely* let
>Dean down, especially with Phil Ford running it.  I can't even reall how
>many times Rick Fox had poor shooting games only to get hot and lead Carolina
>on to a 'W' with clutch shooting the last 5 minutes.

Yes yes yes.  When a guy holds Michael Jordan to medicority only coaching cain
explain it.  The world was surprised at just how dominating Brad Daugherty could
be... AFTER he was no longer shackled by you-know-who's system.  93 subsitutions
in a Final4 game?!  Haw haw...

>> 4. Has Dean Smith made the same coaching mistakes on a consistent basis
>>   or does he learn from his mistakes?(please provide examples)

>He learns from his mistakes.  Last year we desperately needed a TO during
>a GaTech run at home.  Dean didn't call one, cause he considers calling
>a timeout a sign of weakness and poor preperation on his part.  He learned
>though that last years team needed a TO to reorient itself, and in an
>*exact* same situation several weeks later called a TO during a NC State
>run.  Not a big deal, but you wanted an example, so go 'way.

If he learns from his mistakes why is he making the same damned mistakes now
that he was making 20 years ago?  And there's more, much more, to Snuffy's
portfolio of bad coaching than failing to call a TO babee.

>> 5. Have Dean Smith coached teams underachieved in the NCAA Tourney or
>>   were all those 1st round defeats just a dream?

>Nothing like a nice, Objectively asked question eh?  No, he hasn't underachieved
>in the NCAA Tournament.  He's won more tourney games than any coach in
>history and has set a record for consecutive Sweet 16 appearances.

I agree that the question was Objectively axed; I disagree that Snuffy allegedly
having won more NCAA games than any coach in history speaks well for him:

The NCAA by design is meant to be won.  His raw total a tourney wins is largely
a matter of having been trying so long (3 decades), and the unparalleled talent
that he's squandered on his way to an also-record-setting number of high octane
gag-jobs under pressure.

>> 6. Without using obvious and weak excuses(injuries, hot teams), please
>>   explain why Dean Smith coached teams have lost so many games in the
>>   NCAA Tourney when they were the obvious favorite?

>Upsets happen.  It's the name-of-the-game in the NCAA Tournament.  We lost
>to a team that scored more points.  Is this an excuse?

Over a 30 year sample with the kind a talent poor Snuffmeister's had, in a word,
no.
                   
>> 7. What are you own personal criticisms of Dean Smith and the Carolina
>>   program(you must have some, no one is perfect in this world)?

>Already been addressed in this note.  (.997 I think.)  To sum it up,
>Dean's strength is The System.  His weakness is The System.  You can't
>have one without the other.  From a personal standpoint I find Dean a man
>of the highest integrity who I look up to immensely.  

Besides his "feisty" (read: a maladjusted violent sore loser) asst. coach
and tolerance of woman-beating his "integrity is irrelevant.  

More relevant to our little discussion here is that three coaches who have
accomplished so much more than poor Smif' - Adolph, John, and Bob - were also
system coaches.  Differnce?  They were flexible, better at game preparation
against unfamiliar teams with short lead times, and cool as cucumbers under
high pressure.

And that confidence was imbued in their players, and the sum a these players
blossomed to a unified whole greater than the sum a the parts, and they were
made Great.

MrT
17.3296901, 901, 901 !!!SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Mon Feb 17 1992 17:4646
17.3297re MrT: 901!RHETT::KNORRCarolinaBlueMon Feb 17 1992 18:3534
    > He was genuine.
    
    Yep.  A gen-U-ine sleazeball.
    
    
    > reprint the article
    
    No.  I ain't reprinting the article cause I don't have the time or
    desire to type the whole thing in.  It's pointless.  My only reason for
    posting the Geth story is cause presumably there are others other 
    than myself who enjoy a behind-the-scenes peak at the Good
    the Bad, and the Ugly, of college hoops recruiting.  (Dean is "Good".  
    Lefty fits-the-bill on both the Bad *and* the Ugly.  Vewy UGLY!)
    
    
    > PoopSheet == proCarolina
    
    NOTHING, I repeat, ... NOTHING, could be farther than the truth.  The
    Poop Sheet is relentlessly harsh on the Tar Heels - almost unbelievably
    so.  The reason?  Undoubtedly their overall base of subscribers are not
    Carolina fans, which means, of course, that they hate the Heels. 
    Certainly wouldn't help sales to constantly be gushing about UNC ...
    
    I read the anti-UNC articles with a grain of salt, then wait for Dean
    to keep piling on the W's.  Last year it was that there was no
    continuity to the team, too much substituting, etc.  Possibly true, but
    the 29-4 overall record / Final4 appearance wasn't too shabby.  This
    year it's no heart, no guts, no emotion, but 18-3 with a_highly
    emotional home 'W' (followed up by an almost equally emotional 22-point
    comeback against Wake) makes that criticism appear, er, weak.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.3298No double standard here, nosiree.SHALOT::MEDVIDEarth Mo FoMon Feb 17 1992 18:5012
>    No.  I ain't reprinting the article cause I don't have the time or
>    desire to type the whole thing in.  
    
    IgKnorr, please repeat after me:
    
    "I, Chris Knorr, will no longer bad mouth the media for not reporting
    the whole story.  (K)nor(r) will I ever accuse said media of any
    one-sided journalism.  It is obvious, by my own standards, that when
    you do not have the time or desire to do something, you should not be
    criticized for only reporting the negative."
    
    
17.3299ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewMon Feb 17 1992 18:585
    >but the 29-4 / Final4 appearance wasn't too shabby.
    
    Wasn't too Great either, was it?
    
    MrT
17.3300CNTROL::CHILDSmake the right choice, TsongasMon Feb 17 1992 19:043
 I'd say your 901 of T's truly objective piece speaks volumes for the lack
 of yours....
17.3301Send me your Poop Sheet by I/O mail, Chris, and I'll do it justiceSCNDRL::HUNTWelcome back, Calvin &amp; Hobbes !!!Mon Feb 17 1992 19:2129
17.3302You're as slippery as a lawyer, Ketch.RHETT::KNORRCarolinaBlueMon Feb 17 1992 19:4015
    Last I knew, The Poop Sheet was open and available to any person who
    can muster up the $33 p/ year subscription fee.  If you're so concerned
    about me fairly representing the publication I'd suggest you fork over
    the cash, otherwise it's my word against, well, nobodies.  (Consider,
    though, that I've freely reported in here negative stuff they've
    written - stuff you wholeheartedly endorsed.)
    
    The Ed Geth issue stands on its own.  The fact that I've chosen to
    highlight this singular issue (no matter *what* the context) is
    perfectly valid.  We have a set of facts that I've represented
    accurately.  Everyone can make up their own minds as to what these
    facts mean.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3303ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJihad vs McWorld (Tyrant Rexus)Mon Feb 17 1992 21:4216
    re .3300
    
    Thanky, mike.  Also outstanding in ACCrock's infamous question-batch
    hopper:
    
    * He raked Bob over the coals for benching Calbert and then stood 
      silently by as Snuffles did the very same to Lynch.
    
    * He dragged Bob through the mud for having a first half scare to 
      FSU on a neutral court but then saw his Star Hells lose on their
      court to them.
    
    It's be mighty fun to hear ACCrisp attempt to reconcile these things
    in a honest and forthright manner... fun we'll never have.
    
    MrT
17.3304A cruel hoax?NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Feb 18 1992 12:4410
    
    Hey, Chris, when are you going to publish that info from the Poop Sheet
    that supposedly would cause us all to re-evaluate the Great Debate (to
    BobKnight's advantage, from your hints).  You set us up for the fall,
    now when you going to deliver?
    
    glenn
     
    
    
17.3305ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJihad vs McWorld (Tyrant Rexus)Tue Feb 18 1992 13:4812
    re 1
    
    It was a ruse, a empty shallow trick.  He has a quote where Snuffy
    sez something nice about Bob.  He put this into play in a attempt
    to lure me into a admission to Dean = Bob in exchange for revealing
    the quote.  I beach-slapped him a bit and got it out a him and it's
    nothing.
    
    As if the so-called "integrity issue" has anything to do with the 
    Grate Debate.
    
    MrT
17.3306HEY CROCK-O'-HOLIC ANY LUCK ON THE QUESTIONS?!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJihad vs McWorld (Tyrant Rexus)Tue Feb 18 1992 17:521
    
17.3307ACC Report Card: CRHETT::KNORRCarolinaBlueTue Feb 18 1992 17:5536
    Is it too early to say this has been a down year in the ACC?  No - NCAA
    Tournament results typically make that judgement - but a quick glance
    at the AP Top 25 yield dismal results.
    
    Here's a conference by conference breakdown:
    
    Conference		# Top 25 Teams		# Top 10 Teams
    ==========================================================
    ACC			     3			      2
    Big 10		     4			      2
    Big 8		     4			      3
    Big East		     5			      0
    Pac 10		     3			      2
    SEC			     3			      1
    Great Midwest	     1			      0
    Big West		     1			      0
    Metro		     1			      0
    
    Only three (3) teams in the Top 25 is not good, people.  Not when
    you've got the kind of talent teams like Wake (Rogers alone outa have
    them knocking on the door, and they've got plenty of other studs on
    that team), Georgia Tech (huge front line combined with a talented
    backcourt), and Virginia (awesome recruiting class combined with
    top-shelf talent Stith has put together an 11-10 record to date).
    
    Still, there is time.  Wake and Tech should make the tournament.  (The
    Jackets on the strength of an excellent start and lots of
    non-conference W's; Wake has a respectable 6-6 league mark.)  Virginia
    has six (6) games left - four (4) at home.  They could claw their way
    onto the bubble (tomorrow night's UNC game is of *HUGE* importance for
    the Cavs NCAA aspirations).  Like GaTech though, the key may not lie so 
    much with what the number of W's they need so much as how they're playing.  
    Both are really playing poorly at present, especially Tech.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3308RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOSeinfeld roolz!Tue Feb 18 1992 18:0710
    Crock -
    
    WHo you kidding.  TRhe big conferences are guarenteed at least 5 spots
    - and you know damn right well that the ACC will get at least 6 - and 
    maybe 7 - as will the Big 10 and the Big East.  You know as well as I
    do that they will pick a .500 or so team from one of those conferences
    before picking the #2 school (despite a lofty record) from a smaller
    conference.
    
    JD
17.3309NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Feb 18 1992 18:2311
    
    Well, as long as ACChris has lent some small amount of credibility to 
    prematurely listing winners and losers in the conference wars, how 
    about a little nibble of the crow for that "demise of the Big East" 
    stuff?  Nothing major, just a pre-NCAA appetizer, mind you...
    
    Or did Chris only say that the Big East either would or would not fall
    well behind the ACC in the 1990s?
    
    glenn
    
17.3310Wrong, JD. (But I wish you were right this time ...)RHETT::KNORRCarolinaBlueTue Feb 18 1992 18:2412
    Wake up and read your newspaper JD.  Right now there are exactly four
    (4) teams in the ACC with .500 or better records, and one of those four
    (4) is right at .500.  (Wake.)
    
    No way does the ACC send six (6) teams this year unless Virginia makes
    a late-season run.  Tech's conference record right now is 4-7 (16-9
    overall), plus they're playing very poorly right now.  (The NCAA
    Selection Committee has publicly admitted that they take into account
    how well teams are playing late in the year.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3311RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOSeinfeld roolz!Tue Feb 18 1992 18:2916
    Chris -
    
    Don't make me laugh.  You know as well as I do that the NCAA selection
    committee looks at conference first.  Then record.  Not only that, but
    a 6th place team in the ACC won't even be the last seed in a bracket -
    more like 12th at the worst.   ALways happens.
    
    
    Tech needs 4 more wins to get 20 for the season and an automatic bid.
    
    Stop the phoney junk Chris.    I'll bet ya that more than 4 ACC teams
    made the NCAA"s.    Name the prize.
    
    Money in the bank.  I'd be surprised if *only* 5 made it!
    
    JD
17.3312ACC woes stem from youth at PG, IMHO.RHETT::KNORRCarolinaBlueTue Feb 18 1992 18:2915
    Not so fast, Waugamain.  The BigBeast has no reason to crow, cause
    while they've got 5 teams in the Top 25 their highest ranked team is
    way, way down at #17.  (Syracuse)  They then cram four (4) teams into
    the 21-25 positions.
    
    This kind of performance by the BigLeast actually highlights what I've
    been saying all along.  They've been missing out on the top-notch studs
    the last several years, settling for the good but not great players. 
    Hence you can expect to see them stuffing in lots of Top 25 teams, but
    few in the Top 10/Top 5 slots.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3313ACC recruiting dominance was *your* claim, bub...NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Feb 18 1992 18:4125
           
    > This kind of performance by the BigLeast actually highlights what I've
    > been saying all along.  They've been missing out on the top-notch studs
    > the last several years, settling for the good but not great players. 
    > Hence you can expect to see them stuffing in lots of Top 25 teams, but
    > few in the Top 10/Top 5 slots.
    
    So what?  Sounds to me like the Big East has been getting what's
    expected and then some out of their so-called talent projections, 
    including the teams that don't command the respect, like Boston 
    College.  On the other hand, you've been doing a lot of heavy
    bragging about ACC recruiting plums the last few years, but where are 
    the results (outside of Duke)?  The fact is that the argument against 
    you wasn't that the Big East would dominate the country (although you 
    suggested as much for the ACC), but that games are won or lost on the 
    court, not in the Poop Sheet.  That much has come to bear...
    
    Sorry, ACChris.  You've already admitted to your disappointment in the
    ACC so it's gonna be tough to spin your way out of this one by stating
    that the Big East can "only" put the majority of their teams in the
    15-25 slots (well within the requirements for those guaranteed NCAA
    bids that you've been lamenting that the ACC won't get...)
    
    glenn
    
17.3314CNTROL::CHILDSmake the right choice, TsongasTue Feb 18 1992 19:0015
 and Virgina, Maryland or NC State or Clemson could win the ACC tournement and
 get an automatic berth...

 The reasons the Big East doesn't have any teams in the top 10 are simple.

 They beat the hell out of one another during the year so that no-one has
 less than 5 losses which is a prequiste for top 10 consideration. Also
 the Stomper effect (ie play as many cupcakes as possible) early in the
 year cause them to drop below where they belong.

 I think the 4-7 teams in the Big EAST standings could easily be 1-4 in the
 standings in any other conference, except maybe the Big Ten...

 mike
17.3315Maybe I should root for UVa tomorrow night? NOT!!!!RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportTue Feb 18 1992 19:0211
    > Sorry, ACChris
    
    Me too.  The ACC is underachieving this year, no question, despite the
    shot-in-the-arm provided by FSU.  
    
    My BigEast opinion stands though.  They haven't been getting top-shelf
    talent and that trend continued again this year.  Zero (0) teams in the
    Top 15 in the USA is nothing to brag about.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3316CNTROL::CHILDSmake the right choice, TsongasTue Feb 18 1992 19:054
 oh now it's top 15 instead of top 10...keep spinning....

 like you said proof of the pudding is in the end of the year....
17.3317RAVEN1::TURNERA'64ToplessTripower4-SpeedGTOtogo!Wed Feb 19 1992 13:365
    Big upset in the ACC last night......
    
    Clemson over the 'Noles......
    
             WOW!
17.3318SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition Candidates!Wed Feb 19 1992 15:033
       Nobody's mentioned the big UNC-Va showdown on ESPN (BobTV) tonight.
    I predict either the Heels or Hoos will win!
                                    Denny
17.3319FDCV06::KINGBe nice to me, I'm a Pheresis Donor!!Wed Feb 19 1992 15:125
    Nope your wrong Denny, The Heels or the Hoos will lose!!!!
    
    BANK on it!!!!!!!!!!
    
    REK
17.3320'Nuff said ...SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Wed Feb 19 1992 15:183
 Game face.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3321forget UNC-vs-whatstheirfaces, watch State vs IUANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJihad vs McWorld (Tyrant Rexus)Wed Feb 19 1992 15:2010
    Tellya what, if unranked Iowa were in the BigLeast they'd push
    Connecticut for the Title.  Whoops, sorry, they'd push them for
    the pre-post-regular-warmup-nonchampionship thing. 
    
    The BE has had no studs?  Seems to me that last year "coach" John
    Stompshim had two lottery choices on his front-line.  Two future
    NBA all-stars.  His possession and squandering of that kinda fire
    power was Dean-like in its majesty.
    
    MrT
17.3322I agree with Denny, but disagree with REK.AXIS::ROBICHAUDHomerSimpsonPinchHitsForCansecoWed Feb 19 1992 15:231
    
17.3323ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJihad vs McWorld (Tyrant Rexus)Wed Feb 19 1992 15:279
    I predict that this "contest" will be a boring waste a valuable 
    ESPN airtime as the ultra-talented Star Hells go through the routine
    thinking about how they'll have to get ready for Duke when the Almost
    Close to a championsip season starts up in a few weeks.
    
    UVA is sinking.  It may be time to rethink this experiment with the
    kid-coach and bring in somebody to turn this thing around.
    
    MrT
17.3324Fire Jones ??? Not likely ...SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Wed Feb 19 1992 15:4625
17.3325AXIS::CHAPPELFor DUTY and HUMANITYWed Feb 19 1992 15:5513
17.3326I agree!RAVEN1::TURNERA'64ToplessTripower4-SpeedGTOtogo!Wed Feb 19 1992 17:221
    
17.3327All things being equal, Brian Reese may hold the key for UNC fortunes...RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Feb 19 1992 18:4417
    UNC pays a visit to Charlottesville tonight in a must-win game for the
    Cavs, assuming they're interested in making the NCAA Tournament. 
    Virginia will be fired sky-high for this one, but they need to start
    channeling this kind of emotion into results on the hardcourt.
    
    Matchups should be interesting.  Carolina has trouble matching up with
    Stith but everybody does, and Brian Reese at 6-5 might be as good as
    it gets in the ACC this side of Duke and THill/Davis/GHill.  I'd expect
    to see Virginia use a fair amount of zone tonight to try to shutdown
    Carolina's inside strength, whereupon our weak outside shooting
    (assuming they can keep Hubert Davis in check) will come to the fore.
    Phelps has been plain *bad* from 3-point land, as has Sullivan.  Reese
    can make 'em though, and when he does *boy* does that open up his game. 
    He's capable of 20+ scoring nights NOW.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.33284 hours to tipoffSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Wed Feb 19 1992 19:513
 GAME FACE
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3329SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition Candidates!Thu Feb 20 1992 11:196
       Great game! Congrats to Bob and 'saw (you're still a fan eh?).
    Didn't think Snuffy was EVER gonna stop fouling though. Good point by
    Elmore about UVa going to the line so much they were putting up free
    throws like it was just practice! You'd think the chokester would
    figure this out.
                                   Denny
17.3330CAMONE::WAYCheesed a big one offThu Feb 20 1992 11:5711
Yeah.

I have to root for Virginny these days cause UCONN is making me look
bad 8^)

I didn't see the whole game.  When I got home I turned it on and
watched it until it was 47-33, and I saw some arena vendor bringing
the Snuffmeister a big plate o' fried chicken....


'Saw
17.3331Boy is that Stith over-rated!!! ;^) CNTROL::CHILDSmake the right choice, TsongasThu Feb 20 1992 12:1215
 Hey Bob,  maybe you found a good luck charm there. Like Louie's sweaters
 maybe you ought to come in here with that game face for every game....

 Pretty disgusting game at some points. UNC has really turned into a goon
 squad. They ought to play in the Big Eight or Big East where physical
 play like that is the norm. Unbelievable, Snuffy gets a T and then the refs
 do everything in their power to make it up to him. Does Montross know how
 to rebound? Has he ever gotten double digit rebounds in a game? Certainly
 not any games that I have watched.

 SU lost, Georgetown won, UNC lost, Kansas lost, Oklahoma St lost, Indiana
 won, just a real enjoyable evening at my house....

 mike
17.3332Disapointing, but certainly not unexpected.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Feb 20 1992 12:1617
    Congrats to the Cavs for a very large 'W'.  If they can continue to
    play the way they did last night they should find themselves solidly on
    the bubble heading into the ACC tourney.
    
    Forget about Stith, Burrough, and Alexander, who all had fine offensive
    games.  Give this game ball to Cornel Parker and the UVa 'D', which was
    suffocating all night long.  Parker (and Oliver) did as good a job on
    Hubert Davis as anybody has done all year.  Seemed that *every*
    perimeter shot was contested, and when the ball got dumped inside there
    were two (2) or three (3) Cavs streaming to the ball.  
    
    This 'L' pretty much takes Carolina outa the regular season title race,
    unless somebody can step up and beat Duke.  (Not likely.)  Next up for
    the Heels is NC State @ home, which is a game we *should* win.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3333STRATA::CAPPELThu Feb 20 1992 12:3314
    Another T on Smith????
    
    ACChris what's this man's problem.  Has he become a raving, whining 
    lunatic on the sideline that can't show this famous Carolina class
    that he is supposed to be teaching his players?
    
    Isn't it amazing that you complain about a certain coach's on-court
    behaviour even though he hasn't had a technical(that I know about)
    since 1987 and here Dean Smith is racking them up on a game-to-game
    basis.
    
    How embarrassing for Carolina fans,
    
    Cap
17.3334Nothing could be finer than beatin' CarolinaSHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Feb 20 1992 13:1658
 Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah, Zip-A-Dee-Ay ...
 	My O My, What A Wonderful Day ...
 		Plenty Of Sunshine Comin' My Way ...
 			Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah, Zip-A-Dee-Ay ...
 				Mr Bluebird On My Shoulder ...
 
 Nothing tastes as sweet as a win over Carolina.  And a Snuff T to boot. 
 be still my beating heart.  The future of Wahoo hoops was on display
 lasted night.  Cory Alexander and Junior Burrough ... remember those
 names.
 
 Amazing as this may sound ... I missed most of the game.   Remember
 yesterday when I said there'd be a tube tussle lasted night between
 skating and hoops ???   Lost that one big time ...
 
 Came home with my GAME FACE on lasted night around 6:30pm and was
 instantly greeted with ... "They're all ready for you !!!"   
 
 I said ... "Ready for *what* ???"   
 
 Boss says "I'm having a Tupperware party here tonight ... I *TOLD* you
 about it weeks ago ... You're taking the kids out for a coupla hours."
 
 "Okay, it's deal time sweetie.  I'll take 'em out to the library for two
 hours and I'll be back at 9:00pm and the Virginia game goes on ... *NO*
 skating, 'kay ???"
 
 "Who're they playing ???" ... she asks.
 
 *WHO* are they playing ???  What're you nuts ???  CAROLINA !!!   Jeez,
 this is the one I want the absolute *MOST* !!!
 
 Okay, it's a deal ...
 
 Two hours later, after a most pleasant visit to the library with the
 studious MicroHUNTS (who also want to beat Carolina real bad ... 'cause
 Daddy told 'em so) and we pull into HUNTcluster HQ ...  But there are
 still half a dozen cars blocking the driveway.  Oh, $h!t ... Oh, well,
 we'll try and do this delicately ...  So in we go and WHAM !!!
 
 Half a dozen Tupperheads all in my living room sipping coffee and giggling
 and watching Kristi and Tonya and Nancy and Midori and listening to
 Lundquist and Hamilton.
 
 THUD.   Boss gives me the sad-eyed sorry look (yeah, sure) but I'm hosed.  
 Finally, two hours later at a quarter to 11:00, I finally get the remote
 in my hand and flash to ESPN and a 10-point Wahoo lead with 3:30 left to
 play and Snuffy is doing the foul-a-thon dance.   Oh joy, Oh rapture.
 
 So there you have it, sports fans ...  A most enjoyable win ... Wish I
 coulda seen more of it.  Wahoos are back on the bubble.   They have home
 games left against Clemson, State, and Ga Tech and road games against
 Maryland and Duke.  If they can captialize on this *BIG* win and go 4-1
 down the stretch, they can still go 9-7 in conference and sew up a Big
 Dance invite.   The biggest winnable one left is this Saturday in C'ville
 against Ga Tech ... Another *MUST* win.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3335Dean and a few T's a year are nothing new.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 20 1992 13:1712
    Bob hasn't gotten a 'T' since 1-9-8-7 ??  I find that hard to believe.
    
    As far as Dean getting T's, I like it.  Shows he's still fiesty and
    wholly into the game.  Course you would have us equate an occasional
    Dean 'T' (which NEVER involves the use of profane language, BTW - the
    man doesn't swear) with all of Bob's embarassing shortcomings, not the
    least of which involves disgustingly foul language he routinely uses to
    embarass, humiliate, and degrade his players with.  [All in the interest 
    of their overall development a_course ...  :^(]
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3336If you're gonna show a game, SHOW A GAME! :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 20 1992 13:2318
    re: .3334
    
    Don't feel bad Bob - I missed most of the game too, thanks to ESPN and
    their bogus coverage.  TWICE during the game vast stretches were missed
    due to the following identical sequence:
    
    1. ESPN breaks away to a close game in the final seconds.
    2. Offensive team takes time out.  We stay at this game.
    3. Defensive team takes time out.  We stay at this game.
    4. Game ends.
    5. ESPN breaks for a commerical.
    
    The last time this happened was with about 7 minutes to play.  Carolina
    had just whittled the lead down to 5.  When we (finally) returned, UVa
    was up 12 and the game was essentially over.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3337CAMONE::WAYYou'll be left with empty armsThu Feb 20 1992 13:2517
>    wholly into the game.  Course you would have us equate an occasional
>    Dean 'T' (which NEVER involves the use of profane language, BTW - the
>    man doesn't swear) with all of Bob's embarassing shortcomings, not the
    

I'd rather hear a guy get a T for questioning the ref's maternal ancestry,
or say something about the ref's potential deviant sexual habits than
see a guy getting a T for being a whiner....



BobHunt, I can almost feel your pain up north here.  Although I have
to say that had I been in the situation of knowing when Tonya was
gonna skate, I would have changed channels just to see that....


'Saw
17.3338STRATA::CAPPELThu Feb 20 1992 13:2911
    >Dean 'T' (which NEVER involves the use of profane language, BTW - the
    >man doesn't swear) with all of Bob's embarassing shortcomings, not the
    >least of which involves disgustingly foul language he routinely uses to
    >embarass, humiliate, and degrade his players with.  [All in the interest 
    >of their overall development a_course ...  :^(]
    
    Prove that Bob is currently doing this to his players and Dean isn't.
    Please provide documented sources(and remember that I said
    **currently**).
    
    
17.3339On my lap, in my ear, almost made me deaf!CST17::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Thu Feb 20 1992 13:307
    So if the Snuffer got the "T", could someone explain howcome UVa
    shot 4 times?  Digger was barkin & I couldn't hear the anouncers
    explaination.
    
    deen to wonk,
    Kev
    
17.3340SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition Candidates!Thu Feb 20 1992 13:433
       'Lurch' Montross got a T for Snuf-like whining at the same time as
    the 'master'!
                                       Denny
17.3341Tsk, tsk, tsk ...SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Feb 20 1992 13:4612
 'Cause "Boris" Montross got a T before Snuff did.   He was whistled for an
 offensive rebounding foul and slammed the basketball Guthridge-style to
 the floor.   As the ball was on its way back up, the refs' hand were on
 their way to forming the T sign.
 
 And that's when Snuff decided he wanted one too.   Which of course send a
 packed U Hall into thighshuddery overdrive.
 
 Another tasty stat ... Carolina shot 4-for-19 from treyland.  A real
 clankathon.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3342CNTROL::CHILDSmake the right choice, TsongasThu Feb 20 1992 14:0917
 FWIW  ESPN said Bobby got his first T in years last night despite the blowout.
 Snuffy got his for his usual antic of walking onto the floor out of the coach's
 box. And then in all his classness he stands there and claps and claps over the
 call and whines some more...

 Chris, you claimed last week that his Snuffiness learns from his mistakes?
 Why didn't he get a TO early to try and quiet the crowd down and get his
 boys playing the game right instead of letting UVa run off to a 12 point 
 lead?

 It was obvious that the boys felt they had to match Stith 3-pointer for 
 3-pointer coming out of the gate instead of running their offense. A good
 coach or a less stubborn coach I would think would have taken a TO and reminded
 his boys there was still 35+ minutes to play....

 mike
17.3343Congratulate the winner and move on.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 20 1992 14:118
    re: .-1
    
    Why is it after EVERY Carolina loss Dean must be blamed?  Can't we
    simply play and lose?  Virginia played very, very well last night.  To
    blame Dean for that is to detract for the Cavs outstanding effort, IMO.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3344Postmaster a little slow this morning ???SHALOT::HUNTIs that a great new Pepsi can or what?Thu Feb 20 1992 14:156
17.3345Extract this and mail it to yourself. ;^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 20 1992 14:236
    Congratulations.
    
    :^|
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3346RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOSeinfeld roolz!Thu Feb 20 1992 14:288
    Cghris - 
    
    If the snuffer get PRAISE for every victory, he should be able to be
    criticized for every loss.
    
    Welcome NCAA bid, Virginia!
    
    JD
17.3347Lovin' this ...SCNDRL::HUNTWelcome back, Calvin &amp; Hobbes !!!Thu Feb 20 1992 14:456
Cheer up, Chris.

At least Snuffy didn't get stopped for speeding lasted night.  Guess 
his "T" was enough spunk for one night in C'ville.

Bob Hunt
17.3348LUNER::BROOKSYou down wit MSG ?Thu Feb 20 1992 16:348
    re . Cap
    
    Cap, Bob still leads in overall T's, chair tosses, and probably on the
    general embarrassment quotient (GEQ).
    
    Hal tried harder,
    
    Doc
17.3349Lest we forgetSCNDRL::HUNTWelcome back, Calvin &amp; Hobbes !!!Thu Feb 20 1992 17:096
17.3350RAVEN1::B_ADAMSTime for some ROCK and roll!Thu Feb 20 1992 17:117
    
    Chris, Rod and O...
    
    
    	Choke! :*)
    
    B.A.
17.3351Sweet 16 is in Jeopardy!DUGROS::ROSSRally roolz!Thu Feb 20 1992 17:256
    So, Chris, has Montross continued to make progress since his "monster"
    game against Duke {you know the 12 point/8 reb game where he shot 40%}.
    
    Admit it - he's either underachieving or poorly utilized.
    
    
17.3352tellitANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Feb 21 1992 15:387
    Is it true Snuffer got a technical when the clutch was down against
    the Wahoos?  Tell me about this scene.  Did he have that glazed geeky
    look on his face this time like at the Final4, that creep smiley look
    sorta like a 13 year old when he's launching his chicken choker off on
    its maiden voyage?
    
    MrT
17.3353Yup, on top of Boris' own TSHALOT::HUNTThis space for rentFri Feb 21 1992 15:5311
 Tis true, T, but alas I didn't see it, just read about it.   From all
 accounts, His Wandering Whininess got his just rewards.
 
 Of course, this ref was probably a recovering alky or a cancer patient or
 a pedophile and so his judgement was undoubtedly clouded when he decided
 to (gasp!) T up the legend.
 
 Perhaps Snuff ought to invest in one of those electronic invisible
 "fences" that could beep him when he "wanders" outta his box.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3354Stiff, stiffer, stiffest ...SHALOT::HUNTThis space for rentFri Feb 21 1992 15:5912
 Speaking of Boris Montross ... 
 
 Not only is he incredibly slow on his feet but watch him nexted time he
 tries to defy gravity.   The young man has a vertical leap measured in
 millimeters.   No jump whatsoever.   Watch him when he gets a garbage
 dunk.  He can barely get his huge frame up off the ground high enough to
 get the ball going downward again.   More often than not it's one of those
 rim rattlers that threaten to rip the hoop outta the glass.
 
 His height is his *only* ticket to the NBA.   Project, project, project.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3355JMHO.SASE::SZABOFri Feb 21 1992 16:208
    I've only seen this kid Montross for about 10 minutes during the Duke
    game, and I got that exact same impression- slow on his feet and no
    vertical leap.  His haircut reminds me of so many kids with those same
    kinds of do's: makes 'em look like the athlete that they're not but
    desparately wannabe.  The gimmick backfires in this case...
    
    Hawk
    
17.3356LUNER::BROOKSSoftware : Art Of The StateFri Feb 21 1992 17:117
    Yeah, but Bob didn't you list Montross has part of Dean's
    treasure-trove of talent ? I apologize if I'm wrong, but 1/2 of the
    Smif' bashers have been droaning on and on about Deano's "talent" and
    how he will "misuse" it.
    
    I don't see it - certainly not when it comes to Montross. Never did, I
    always thought he put the 'S' in stiff ...
17.3357The ScriptSHALOT::HUNTThis space for rentFri Feb 21 1992 17:2420
 Eric Montross was the No. 1 recruit in the country his senior year.   Soup
 went hyper-bonkers the day Snuff signed him.  He was the crown jewel in
 the greatest recruiting class of all time, remember.
 
 Fast forward to today and we see Vitale and pals gushing all over him for
 his 8 points and 3 rebounds.   Go figure.
 
 Perhaps (just maybe) the young lad is in fact more height than talent. 
 You couldn't have convinced the Baby Blue Faithful of that two years when
 he signed.  Now they probably still think he's the top soph in the
 conference.  (Hint: Not even close ... Rodney Rogers rules the Tobacco
 Road Class Of '94.)
 
 Could it be the coach ???   Heavens no.  Eric "Project" Montross will go
 from the top recruit in the country ... to a sophomore stiff ... to a
 ringless senior farewell ... to the NBA ... to the bench.   
 
 And the Faithful Thighs will shudder.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3358The Boston Clangler ???SHALOT::HUNTThis space for rentFri Feb 21 1992 17:2910
 Oh, and Rick Fox sure has cooled off lately, hasn't he ???   He'll be
 lucky to make NBA _2nd_ Team All-Rook with his whopping 9 points and 4
 boards a game.
 
 Bestest thing Snuffy did for him was whisper in his ear to sign his Boston
 deal quick and get into camp on Day 1.   Fox listened and stole a coupla
 months prep time on the other rooks.  Now that the stud rooks ain't
 playin' like rooks no more ... the real Brick Fox has come to play.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3359My vote is with the gushers (ACChris) and not the gushee (Smith)NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Feb 21 1992 17:3515
            
> Perhaps (just maybe) the young lad is in fact more height than talent. 
> You couldn't have convinced the Baby Blue Faithful of that two years when
> he signed.
    
> Could it be the coach ???   Heavens no.
    
    Nowwaitasecond.  What's this "just maybe" stuff?  You just got through
    stating that the kid's vertical leap can be measured in millimeters and
    most of the criticisms I've heard have to do with his physical tools.
    Given that, is the problem with the coach or the Baby Blue Faithful?  
    They're independent of each other in this case...
    
    glenn
    
17.3360Montross & FoxRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 21 1992 17:5031
    re: Montross
    
    Doc's point brings out another example of Weasel Thypocrisy (tm) - hardly
    an uncommon sight in these parts.  I'd also add to this the projections
    that Montross will ride the bench in the NBA someday (presumably
    because of bad teaching by Dean) despite the fact that they're
    constantly pointing out all the great NBA players that have come thru
    Chapel Hill.  (The result of raw talent, of course, and no teaching on
    Dean's part.)
    
    As I've said time and time again, a HS AA does not necessarily translate 
    into a Collegiate AA.  In fact, I'd venture to say that's *rarely* the 
    case.  Montross is still only a sophomore.  He was absolutely crucial
    to the Duke 'W', and he's being hindered by virtually every team that
    Carolina plays constant collapsing inside because of our suspect outside
    shooting (except for Hubie).  (See UVa game for details.)  Additionally
    his numbers aren't great in part because he's splitting PT with Kevin
    Salvadori, who's turning into the nicest surprise at Chapel Hill since,
    well, Hubert Davis.
    
    re: Fox
    
    Couldn't it be that Fox is suffering from that stretch that most
    rookies go thru this time of year?  (i.e. tired from all the games,
    etc.)  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
    
17.3361I'm not anti-Montross, just anti-DeanDUGROS::ROSSRally roolz!Fri Feb 21 1992 18:328
    Despite what Chris thinks, I believe Montross is better than he has 
    been allowed to show so far... and that is a direct result of the 
    Dean Smith system.   A 7' stud center should be on the floor 30+
    minutes a game except when in foul trouble.  Dean likes to shuffle so
    many guys into the lineup, that I don't believe Eric has got the
    opportunity to get into a real flow.   That's why I believe Montross
    would have been better off playing for Indiana.  Bob would be playing 
    him every game and fitting him into the offense.
17.3362Thanks, DeanSHALOT::HUNTThis space for rentFri Feb 21 1992 18:5027
17.3363Salvadori leads ACC in blocks, BTW.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 21 1992 18:505
    One question Doug.  If you were coach of the Heels and had a vastly
    improving Kevin Salvadori in addition to Montross, what wouldya do?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3364SimpleSHALOT::HUNTThis space for rentFri Feb 21 1992 18:546
17.3365Got all that outof a box score, eh?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 21 1992 18:547
    re: .3362
    
    You're talking awful big for someone who admits he didn't even watch
    the game.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3366RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOSeinfeld roolz!Fri Feb 21 1992 18:5737
    Acc Chris is right.
    
    Dean is to get all the credit for the good NBA players like Jordan -
    without him, they would have gone nowhere.
    
    Dean is blameless for those that didn't go to stardom - it was not his
    fault.
    
    Dean is to be praised for victories.
    
    Losses, however, are not his fault.
    
    Dean is to be praised for any of his athetes that have gone on to do
    good things.
    
    He is not to be blamed for anything that goes wrong (see Davis,
    Walter).
    
    Get the picture?
    
    Good.  Dean.
    
    Bad.  Not Dean.
    
    Win.  Dean.
    
    Lose.  Not Dean.
    
    Success.  Dean.
    
    Failure.  Not Dean.
    
    
    It's a great system.  If a stud recruit suceeds, it's because of Dean. 
    If a stud recruit fails, it's the stud recruits fault.
    
    JD
17.3367I didn't vote in New Hampshire eitherSHALOT::HUNTThis space for rentFri Feb 21 1992 18:577
17.3368Never said any of that stuff, JD. (I oughta *sue*!)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 21 1992 19:0313
    re: .-1
    
    Just to let ya know, Jeffries played halfway decent, but anytime the
    ball came inside there were three (3) Cavs collapsing inside.  Montross
    dished back outside, but that's where the clanged jumpers entered into
    the picture.
    
    One question though: If Montross is so bad, why does *every* team 
    Carolina plays recognize that our strength is inside and bring all
    resources to bear to stop it?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3369You never did mention the close one vs. ClemsonDUGROS::ROSSRally roolz!Fri Feb 21 1992 19:3124
    Chris,
    
    re: Salvadori
    
    	I think Montross is better and is *potentially* far better than
    	Salvadori...  Salvadori ain't that good as an all-around player.
        They can both play at the same time, but that would depend on 
    	matchups... I think a Twin Towers setup against GA Tech would
    	be very effective.... not against FSU, though.
    
        If I were Dean {ugh} I would start Montross and play
        him until:
    
    		a) he asked to come out
    		b) he had three fouls in the first half
    		c) he was not hustling {which I haven't seen yet}
    
    	Montross plays hard all the time, but he nevers seems to get enough
        consecutive minutes to establish himself.   First, Hubert Davis and
        George Lynch have to get their shots, then Reese and Phelps drive
        to the hoop a couple times... finally they may dump it into
    	Montross for his little hook.  If it goes in, there's still a
        50-50 chance that Salvadori will be sitting at the scorer's table
    	waiting to replace him.   
17.3370RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOSeinfeld roolz!Fri Feb 21 1992 19:3612
    Chris -
    
    Wanna bet.  I know you said it about success/failure - and specifically
    about Walter Davis - while patting Dean on the back for all the
    accountants and stuff he's produced.   You routinely praise Dean for
    his wins, yet  offer no criticism for losses - blaming them on exams,
    injuries, hot teams, etc...
    
    BTW, I don't think Salvadori can reach the same plateau as Montross. 
    However, perhaps Eric isn't as fast or as willing a pupil as Sal is..
    
    JD
17.3371RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOSeinfeld roolz!Fri Feb 21 1992 19:377
    Chris -
    
    Also, I don't think a twin towers would work with Montross or Sal,
    mainly cuz neither is that quick of foot.  I would however, work more
    and more on Montross low post positioning.
    
    JD
17.3372Oversubbing generally is a first half phenomenonRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 21 1992 19:5015
    re: Ross
    
    One thing I've noticed about Dean the last two (2) years is he really
    subs alot in the first half.  Things settle down considerably in the
    second half, but he almost coaches the first half just to get to the
    second.  For instance, Matt Wenstrom must log his obligatory 2 minutes. 
    Same for Donald Williams.  Do we really need these two (2) stiffs
    playing, when both their positions have adequate first *and* second
    string players?  (Not fail to label Williams a stiff yet, but he sure
    ain't shown much ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
17.3373Does EVERYONE need a nice vertical leap?CSOA1::SIMPSON_TIn search of mythical kingsSat Feb 22 1992 02:3127
re. - all this Montross stuff

	Ross is closes to the truth on this.  I said it two years ago, when
Carolina first entered the picture recruiting Montross, but nobody believe it
since I'm an IU fan.  I'll say it again now.

	Montross doesn't fit the Tar Heel system.  It's that simple.  

	It's not Smith's coaching that's the problem --- he just never should 
have recruited the guy in the first place, because we all know that the 
System stays, no matter what.  Montross doesn't fit the system.

	It's not Montross' ability that's the problem.  Granted, he's no 
Shaquille (Defense?  We don't need no steenking defense) O'Neal.  But then,
Robert Parish is no Shaquille either, and he's managed to survive.  And a lot
of guys who came out of high school with less talent and fewer skills than
Montross have gone on to become very good college centers.

	Mind you, he'll end up with a nice career and spot in the NBA.  He's
a talented kid who's 7 feet tall, after all.  He just won't leave college with
the career he would have had if he'd gone somewhere (Indiana or elsewhere) that
could have made use of HIS talents.

	The kid made a mistake, not a big one, in choosing Carolina.  And Dean
made a mistake, not a big one, in recruiting him.

tom
17.3374DUGROS::ROSSRally roolz!Sat Feb 22 1992 20:2019
    NC State beats NC again!  I wish I could have seen it... I watched
    the first 15 minutes and, amazingly, North Carolina came out feeding
    Montross in the low post and Eric responded with 6 quick points in the
    first couple minutes plus a couple rebounds and a steal.  But guess
    what?  At the 15:30 mark after the TV timeout, Dean pulled Montross
    for Salvadori {or was it Wenstrom?}.   It's like Dean doesn't want
    Montross to think he can be a force for an entire half.  
    
    Chris, still think a finish out of the top twenty is inconceivable
    after the Tar Heels:
    	
    	a) barely beat a terrible Clemson team
    	b) lost to a mediocre Virginia team {that lost to GA Tech}
    and c) lost to a lousy NC State team that had lost every game since the
    	   last win over UNC?
    
    
    If the Tar Heels lose to FSU and Duke, they should not be a Top Twenty
    team.... right?
17.3375Nirvana=30 games vs UVAISLNDS::REEVESun Feb 23 1992 00:5714
    Hi Bob-
    
    It's me again. Bet you wish you never heard of Georgia Tech. Boy do we
    have you're number (at least for now). This has been going on for quite
    some time now, but I'm not bored. Too bad we can't do this to more
    deserving teams (like Clemson). Thanks for the boost to the bubble, we
    needed it after underachieving (rhymes with coke) lately. I have no
    idea what the details were, but I imagine they were in keeping with the
    agonizing recent history of the Tech-UVA ongoing soap opera with lots
    of last minute incredulity. Didn't see the Blews Brothers either, but
    guess they must have pulled several inches of mercury to lose at home
    to NC State. Mt. Ross truly is a stiff. 
    
    GTChris
17.3376Unconfirmed storySHALOT::HUNTThis space for rentSun Feb 23 1992 15:1124
 Sigh, Georgia Tech sure as hell has the Hoos' number.  Lasted time we beat
 them was a 1990 Stith buzzer beater.   The Hoos now have to win the rest
 of their games including Duke at Duke to make the Big Dance.   Ain't gonna
 happen, dammit ...
 
 And now here's a *fascinating* story ... I have this from "reliable
 sources" within the Virginia basketball program.   
 
 Lasted Wednesday night shortly before halftime of the Virginia-North
 Carolina basketball game, a radio technician for the North Carolina
 basketball network was caught crawling around in the ductwork up above the
 Virginia locker room area.   He crashed through the ceiling (a la Arnie
 and Rox) and landed on the desk of Virginia soccer coach Bruce Arena.
 
 He was dazed and slightly bruised.  He was carrying quite a bit of
 electronic gear ... tiny microphones and thin wires.   His excuse was that
 Dean Smith had given the radio network permission to listen in on
 Carolina's halftime talk ... yet the man was nowhere near the Carolina
 locker room when he fell and he had no written authorization to be up in
 the ductwork either.   An investigation is underway.
 
 Carolina was behind by double digits at halftime.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3377Anyone but the ACC is fine with meJENEVR::FRANCUSMets in '92Sun Feb 23 1992 15:379
    re:  North Carolina
    
    Well NC was 4th in last weeks polls, lost twice they will probably drop
    to somewhere like 10th. At this point not ending in the top 20 would be
    far fetched. Mind you I am not saying they do or do not deserve it just
    that the way the polls work it is unlikely to happen.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
17.3378CAMONE::WAYYou'll be left with empty armsMon Feb 24 1992 10:517
Wake Forest upsets Duke 72-68.

Duke probably retains the #1 slot because UCLA lost also....


fyi,
'Saw
17.3379BSS::JCOTANCHMon Feb 24 1992 12:5511
> Wake Forest upsets Duke 72-68.

> Duke probably retains the #1 slot because UCLA lost also....

    Kansas could've moved into the #1 spot but they lost to Nebraska last
    week.  So yea, Duke will probably stay #1, but Kansas should move up to
    #2.  Not that any of this matters a whole hell of a lot with the Big
    Dance coming up.
    
    Joe

17.3380Terrible, awful, horrible, and downright ugly. :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 24 1992 12:5818
    I haven't been this disapointed in a Carolina effort in a very long
    time (but then again, I didn't see the Florida State game).  Absolutely
    horrendous defensive effort.  HORRIBLE.  
    
    No sense pointing out individuals, but I gotta say we did not make any
    defensive adjustments.  HOW MANY STINKIN' LAYUPS DID THOMPSON HAVE,
    ANYWAY???!!!!  State drives to the basket.  Somebody helps out.  Dish. 
    Layup.  This happened time and time again.  Add in our very poor
    defensing of their 3-point shooting (Mark Davis had two *wide open* 3's
    in a row in the closing minute - unreal) and you've got the makings of
    a team that a) was not ready to play, and b) did not make the
    adjustments necessary to win.
    
    No way on God's Green Earth should we lose at home to a team that's
    lost 9 in a row, 'specially coming off a loss ourselves ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3381Hint: not "we", but "he"NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Feb 24 1992 13:016
                     
    C'mon Chris, you can do it, you can say it, *who* didn't make the
    proper defensive adjustments?  It won't hurt...
    
    glenn
    
17.3382Spread the floor against Carolina & we wilt on 'D' ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 24 1992 13:037
    re: .-1
    
    Hey, I've critized Dean before and I'm sure I'll do it again. 
    Saturday was *not* one of his better moments ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3383CAMONE::WAYYou'll be left with empty armsMon Feb 24 1992 13:0327
    
>    No sense pointing out individuals, but I gotta say we did not make any
>    defensive adjustments.  HOW MANY STINKIN' LAYUPS DID THOMPSON HAVE,
>    ANYWAY???!!!!  State drives to the basket.  Somebody helps out.  Dish. 
>    Layup.  This happened time and time again.  Add in our very poor
>    defensing of their 3-point shooting (Mark Davis had two *wide open* 3's
>    in a row in the closing minute - unreal) and you've got the makings of
>    a team that a) was not ready to play, and b) did not make the
>    adjustments necessary to win.


How often have we seen ol Dean-o NOT make adjustments.  He sticks with
his system, trying to bang the square peg into the round hole until
the peg is broken and the hammer busted.


And what a Clang-a-thon for Carolina Blew from 3-Point land...

I'll tell you, the Hells looked like they could all board a plane
for China to repair the Great Wall they were throwing up so many
bricks....


'Saw    



17.3384This game was not lost on Offense, believe me.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 24 1992 13:1310
    re: .-1
    
    Actually we had one of our best 3-point efforts of the season. 
    Offensively Carolina was *very* efficient.  (A 30-point effort by
    Hubert Davis was wasted.)  In the last minute the 3's weren't falling,
    but given the incredibly weak effort defensively I'm *almost* glad we
    lost.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3385NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Feb 24 1992 13:2310
    
    Duke did retain the #1 spot, according to the headline on the front
    page of USA Today.
    
    I think it's fair to say at this point that Duke does miss Bobby Hurley
    badly.  The level of their play is way off from where it was earlier in
    the season.  Coach K acknowledges this...
    
    glenn
    
17.3386BSS::JCOTANCHMon Feb 24 1992 13:574
    Also, Duke barely held on to beat Maryland the other night, and the
    game was at Cameron.
    
    Joe
17.3387Duke only beat the Terps by 2 at home ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 24 1992 13:585
    Is it fair to say that Duke retaining the #1 spot in the nation after
    *both* its losses is unprecedented in college hoops history?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.33888 points quick, 7 the rest of the wayAUNTB::ROSSRally roolz!Mon Feb 24 1992 14:128
    I've been onsite at a customer in SC for a couple months now.. one of
    the managers is a UNC grad in his mid-40's and a bigtime hoop
    supporter.  His comment this morning on the Tar Heels was that "I think
    Dean's methods are getting a little shopworn."
    
    Chris, after the first three minutes of the game, did you expect
    Montross to be subbed for at TV timeout?   I thought for sure that
    Eric was on his way to a career day.
17.3389Didn't need the points yesterday. Coulda used the 'D' ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 24 1992 14:1611
    I couldn't give a rats butt whether Montross had a "career day" or not. 
    You make the mistake of only judging him based on the total number of
    points scored.  Big mistake.
    
    Eric coulda scored 30 points yesterday, but his defensive effort would
    still rate his game as mediocre.  Like I said, this game was *not* lost
    on offense, but rather on horrible, horrible, horrible defense.  Maybe
    the worst I've ever seen played by UNC.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3390Another Snuff ChokeSHALOT::HUNTThis space for rentMon Feb 24 1992 14:3517
 Chris, your anger is pushing your Credibility Index up a coupla healthy
 notches.   Now finish the job.   You're right ... no way should Carolina
 be on a 2-game skid right now in late February.   Go for it, dude.   You
 know who's to blame.   You can do it.  We're behind you all the way.
 
 And to give you even more encouragement ... I'll show you how it's done. 
 On Saturday in C'ville, Ga Tech's Jon Barry was shut down tight by a great
 defensive effort from Cornell Parker.   Barry had just 3 points and was
 very frustrated.
 
 With about 10 minutes to go, Jeff Jones switched Cory Alexander on Barry
 and sat Parker.   A grateful Barry scored 8 points down the stretch
 including two killer treys.   Jackets won by 3.   Jones blew it with that
 one ill-timed switch.   Negated a nice team defensive effort and handed
 the Jackets a big win.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3391Losing streak could increase @ Maryland Wednesday. :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 24 1992 14:4512
    re: .-1
    
    Spare me.  My comments are directed at one individual game.  Less than
    a week ago Dean was being praised for doing one of his best coaching
    jobs ever, taking a team with serious weaknesses to #4 in the USA and
    challenging for the ACC title.  
    
    One bad game isn't gonna change all that, but I sure hope he realizes
    what opponents are doing to us and make some adjustments.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3392JENEVR::FRANCUSMets in '92Mon Feb 24 1992 14:528
    re: .3387
    
    Safe bet that no team has stayed #1 after eachof 2 losses. Then again
    when was the last time that teams 1-6 lost in a week, and 8 of the top
    10??
    
    The Crazy Met
    
17.3393It's a simple concept: match 'em bucket for bucket...SASE::SZABOMon Feb 24 1992 15:036
    re: not needing offense cause the game was lost on poor defense.
    
    Maybe it's too simple but, if your team's D is doing such a lousy job, 
    wouldn't it make sense to go with your offensive strengths to overcome 
    the lousy D?
    
17.3394Macro, my boy, macro ...SHALOT::HUNTThis space for rentMon Feb 24 1992 15:4220
17.3395Anyone know the poll deadlinesJURAN::MCKAYMon Feb 24 1992 15:4610
    I don't know the specifics on the polls but I would have to believe
    all votes have to be in sometime Sunday.  Since Duke played a 2pm
    Sunday game its possible people had voted before they had lost.
    
    What I think is funny about the polls is that it is much better to lose 
    on a Monday or Tuesday than on a Saturday as far as dropping like
    a rock.  
    
    Jimbo
    
17.3396congrat's to Snuffy on his T & subsitutionsANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Feb 24 1992 16:017
    Great week for Indiana Hoosier and Carolina Star Hell basketball.  
    A great week all 'round.
    
    I sure hope the Hoosiers get the Star Hells in the tournament - what
    to prove.
    
    MrT
17.3397FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Mon Feb 24 1992 16:1810
    If all the teams immediately behind Duke lost, then Duke should still
    remain number 1.
    
    The only poll that really matters for anything in particular is the
    football one anyway, because everything else uses a playoff system to
    determine the National Champion.  The only #1 that really matters is
    the one after the title game - except for the honor of being in the
    poll it's totally irrelevant.
    
    John
17.3398ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Feb 24 1992 16:217
    The hoops polls matter cuz they influence the seedings so.  Not to
    mention recruiting.
    
    Where are all the gurus (cain you say, "mike childs?" I knew yew
    could) who said that Duke would be better without Hurley now?
    
    MrT
17.3399RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Feb 24 1992 17:288
    re: MrT
    
    Well, one (1) week ago the Hoosiers got beat by a team they'd beaten
    earlier by close to 50.  Meanwhile the Heels had claimed to #4 in the
    USA with a 'W' over the #1 team in the USA.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3400ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Feb 24 1992 17:4310
    In the past week the Hoosiers avenged a 18 point loss with a 30
    point dog-walk, and swept OSU at their house.
    
    As for the Minny loss, so what.  I cain see where you cling to your
    #4 ranking and a win over the #1 team in the USA.  
    
    You had your fun, now step aside.  It's meaningless end-of-season
    peak time.
    
    MrT
17.3401RAVEN1::B_ADAMSTime for some ROCK and roll!Mon Feb 24 1992 17:4723
    Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah, Zip-A-Dee-Ay...
    	My O My, What a Wonderful Day...
    		Plenty of Sunshine Comin' My Way...
    			Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah, Zip-A-Dee-Ay...
    
    Not since 1974 had the Pack beat the Tar Babies twice in the regular
    season!
    
    	Coming off a ***** 9 *****  game LOSING streak to kill the heels!
    
    	I must say the PACK showed out in the Dumb Dome!!!!  What wuz Deano
    thinking? No defense adjustments..couldn't have been better for the
    PACK!  Even when Thompson got into fowl trouble...the PACK still poured
    it on!...Time out for the Heels...didn't matter, no defense!
    
    I LOVE IT!!!!! :*)
    
    	I just wished we played the baby blues 5 more times this year! :*)
    
    Eat Crow Rod!!!
    
    B.A.
    
17.3402Catchy tune, eh, B.A. ???SHALOT::HUNTThis space for rentMon Feb 24 1992 18:039
 Don'tcha just hate it when someone comes in here all happy and singing
 show tunes after upsetting Carolina ???   How dare they celebrate a lucky
 win over such a Mighty coach.  Really torches my tuckus.
 
 
 
 NOT !!!
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3403Do I smell the stench a underachievement at UNC-CHANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Feb 24 1992 18:071
    
17.3404Win over SNUFF: like BUTTER, it's like BUTTER!CAMONE::WAYYou'll be left with empty armsMon Feb 24 1992 18:3314
> Don'tcha just hate it when someone comes in here all happy and singing
> show tunes after upsetting Carolina ???   How dare they celebrate a lucky
> win over such a Mighty coach.  Really torches my tuckus.
                                                   ^^^^^^


Haven't heard that in a while....


And I thought you were gonna tell me how "verklempt" you were and 
for us to talk among ourselves....


'Saw
17.3405Dean Smif the TF bitch finally finds his nitchANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Feb 24 1992 19:325
    Snuffy guest appears on Coffee Tawlk?  How poifict!  Him and Bawbawa,
    those legs, those liver spots, together I tell you they are like
    BUTTER!
    
    MrT
17.3406CNTROL::CHILDSmake the right choice, TsongasTue Feb 25 1992 12:445
 So Grant Hill isn't the point guard, I thought that he was. I was wrong.
 BFD....send my some crow if you like T.....

 mike
17.3407I'd love to have Duke's problemsSHALOT::HUNTThis space for rentTue Feb 25 1992 12:5914
 The rest of us should have it so bad.   Duke went from winning games by 20
 points or more with Hurley to winning them by *only* 10 points without
 him.
 
 Never mind the fact that they've been playing a *killer* road schedule
 lately.   Never mind that everyone is gunning for them (Hint: Lasted time
 Tar Heel fans partied _that_ hard after a win was after a certain Fred
 Brown pass went awry in '82).  Never mind that Duke lost last year at Wake
 Forest *with* Hurley.
 
 Yeah, they're crashing and burning alright.   I wish they'd send some of
 their "kerosene" my way.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3408ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Feb 25 1992 13:354
    To quote a line laid on poor MrT after the AFC Championship Game, 
    Cafe Crow is strictly self-service.  Bon apetit!
    
    MrT
17.3409Childs Hoop Analysis Index continues to nosedive ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Feb 25 1992 13:4611
    True Bob.  True.  The BDevils are *loaded*, what with HS All-Americans
    not even getting PT.  (Marty Clark was a McDonald's AA; Kenny Blackeney
    was a stud; Parks; Meek; etc; etc)
    
    The fact that they couldn't go undefeated is a tribute to the quality
    of the ACC.  (Compared with, say, UNLV last year.)  It also highlights
    the incredible accomplishments of Dean's '84 and '87 Carolina teams,
    both of which went undefeated in the conference.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3410CNTROL::CHILDSmake the right choice, TsongasTue Feb 25 1992 13:599
              <<< Note 17.3409 by RHETT::KNORR "Carolina Blue" >>>
           -< Childs Hoop Analysis Index continues to nosedive ... >-
               
 Still higher than yours.......
 
 I think I'll wait just a little T. When they loose to a real dog then I
 might indulge....

 mike
17.3411ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Feb 25 1992 14:0114
    >highlights the incredible accomplishments of Dean's '84 and '87
    >teams,
    
    At least you got the adjective right: Incredible.  
    
    '84 was touted as the most talented team a all time - and they got
    beat up by you-know-whom.  Incredible.  
    
    Cain't you just admit that the ACC has gotten a lot tougher, what with
    CoachK emerging from Bob's womb as the dominant coach in the ACC (Dean
    is now 2nd rank), and that the rising up a Tech, and the injection of 
    FSU, has made things tougher now than they were before?  [no]
    
    MrT
17.3412Beating BobHunt to the punch ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Feb 25 1992 14:216
    The ACC was *plenty* tough enough in both '84 and '87.  Why, in 1984
    Virginia was good enough to knock your beloved Hucksters outa the
    tourney!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3413available on tapeHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelTue Feb 25 1992 14:2315
A little late, but what the hey.

Not only was Saturday a good day with State beating the Heels at the Dean
Dome, but so was Sunday. The win, coupled with the loss to the Hoos,
perfectly set up the Dean Smith Show. I have it on tape and it was an
historical occassion. 

Dean got right to the heart of the matter. It was his fault. In
unequivocable terms he fessed up to what Knorr has such a hard time with.
He said the defense was not prepared. His fault, he said. He said the
defense let State have too much working inside. His fault, he said.

The coach said it was the coach's fault. 

TTom
17.3414great 87 winHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelTue Feb 25 1992 14:3011
re: a few back about how great the 84 and 87 Heels were.

Already mentioned is the Indiana win that ended the Michael Jordan era.
Lest it be forgotten, State beat the Heels to win the tournament that
year. Chucky Brown and Vinnie Del Negro (Tournament MVP) conspired to add
to the dearth of any title the Heels suffered in the 80s.

BTW, What happened to the Heels in the NCAAs that year? I know they
didn't win it but who peaked against them?

TTom
17.3415'87 was OrangeSHALOT::HUNTThis space for rentTue Feb 25 1992 15:0110
17.3416and another oneHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelTue Feb 25 1992 15:217
Thanks Bob. Like I said, I knew they didn't win it...

Add NBA All-Star Brad Daugherty to the Heels, though. Let's don't even
think about entertaining the thought that the Heels might have been
out-manned.

TTom
17.3417Dean is a Main's Main - admits to a mistake.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Feb 25 1992 15:4219
    re: TTom
    
    I'll be catching TDSS (The Dean Smith Show) Wednesday night.  Glad to
    hear Dean admit to what I've already said - the defense was TERRIBLE.
    
    The thing is this.  Dean can react to these situations, but *sometimes*
    he doesn't.  Why?  Dunno, but I suspect it's The System.  The System
    says play the percentages, which means eventually teams will start
    missing shots, etc, etc, and if he just sticks it out things will
    eventually even out.  
    
    Well, things DON'T even out when the other team is shooting lay-ups and
    wide open 3's!  We'll see what kind of adjustments are made this
    Thursday night @ FSU, which is another team that will spread the floor,
    drive to the basket, and shoot 3's.  I'll be *very* surprised if we
    don't turn in a significantly improved defensive effort.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3418differencesHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelTue Feb 25 1992 16:027
Yeah, Dean seems a lot more willing to accept the responsibility to a
poor showing by the team than a lot of the fans. Another difference
between Dean and a lot of Heel fans is that I've never heard him take
credit for when the team is playing well. He does use the papal we a lot,
however ("we shot well", "we passed well", etc.)

TTom
17.3419And so does ACCrock-o'-holic!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewTue Feb 25 1992 16:141
    
17.3420Dean blew the State game, no doubt 'bout it.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Feb 25 1992 16:1512
    Correct, TTom.  Couple more points:
    
    1. Dean is incredibly modest.  He won't take praise when things go
       well; loves to take all of it when things go poorly.
    
    2. Cain you believe Ross' Tar Heel alum friend saying Dean's ways are
       getting tired?  Wonder if he was saying the same thing the week
       before when his supposed beloved Heels knocked off Duke and Wake to 
       advance to #4 in the country?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3421DECWET::DECWET::METZGERNow, up close and personal with.....Tue Feb 25 1992 16:209
If "we" are going to be playing better defense against FSU then "we" blew the
state game also......


Shloe shlep shorts,


Metz
17.3422Brad was on the Cuyahoga in '87SHALOT::HUNTThis space for rentTue Feb 25 1992 16:2020
17.3423Maybe there's hope after allSHALOT::HUNTThis space for rentTue Feb 25 1992 16:2813
17.3424remaining ACC ScheduleHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelTue Feb 25 1992 16:3431
Remaining ACC schedule. Tourney is 3/12-3/15.

2/25	(Maryland vs UNC-Greensboro)

2/26	DUKE vs Virginia
	NC STATE vs Clemson

2/27	FLORIDA ST vs No Carolina
	GA TECH vs Wake Forest

2/29	VIRGINIA vs Clemson
	GA TECH vs NC State

3/1	MARYLAND vs No Carolina
	(Duke at UCLA)
	(Wake Forest vs Temple)

3/3	VIRGINIA vs NC State

3/4	CLEMSON vs Duke
	NO CAROLINA vs Ga Tech

3/5	WAKE FOREST vs Maryland

3/7	MARYLAND vs Virginia
	NC STATE vs Wake Forest

3/8	DUKE vs No Carolina
	GA TECH vs Clemson

TTom
17.3425Objectivity from this corner - none from yours ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Feb 25 1992 17:278
    re: .3423
    
    Gee Bob, if you complete the picture and give ZERO credit to Dean
    for any of Carolina's W's you'll be echoing the HoFer himself!
    
    :^(
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3426ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewTue Feb 25 1992 17:4514
    >Cain you believe Ross' Tar Heel alum friend... Wonder if he was saying
    >the same thing the week his supposed beloved Tar Heels...
    
    Supposed?  *SUPPOSED*?!
    
    Lookit, don't make me issue a Cease & Resist order on joe ace buddy.
    Who are YOU to question the fealty a a real live certified genuine
    actual Tar Heel alum when YOU are a faux blabbering on and on about 
    "ours" and "we" and "us" and similar self-deluded bilge.
    
    STOP IT.
    
    Thanking you in advance, I aim,
    MrT
17.3427MorT would check Sheepskins before allowing fans into Alumni Hall !RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Feb 25 1992 18:0911
    Aw shadup will ya MorT?  Being_a alum and being_a fan are mutually
    exclusive, as the Dean Dome itself pays testimony to, what with all the
    fat cats arriving late (if they show at all), yelling at people to 'Sit
    Down!' when they'd dare stand to cheer a play, or generally sitting on
    their butts the whole game and applauding politely.  ('Playing at Chapel
    Hill is like attending a Wine and Cheese party', was a quote Sam
    Cassell made after FSU whipped the Heels at the tomb-like Smith
    Center.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3428ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewTue Feb 25 1992 20:255
    Oh, so *that's* it.  So sorry.  I didn't understand the deal is
    that the REAL Star Hell alums are deficient in their Snuff-support
    and so you're able to don the mantle a faux "we" "our" "us".
    
    MrT 
17.3429Dean Dome aptly namedSHALOT::HUNTThis space for rentWed Feb 26 1992 13:4111
 The "wine and cheese" party in the Dean Dome stands is a direct reflection
 of the "whine and jeez" coach on the sidelines.   If he would ever crack
 half a smile and encourage the fans to be fans, you might see a little
 less snoozing in the seats.
 
 Eight miles away, Krzyzewski has no problems with rowdy students occupying
 the lower seats and doing their thang.  Heck, he encourages it.   Snuff's
 Tom Landry-style "corporate" image won't permit it.   Heel fans have no
 one to blame for their morgue than themselves and Snuffy.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3430U oughta know - u were there ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Feb 26 1992 14:219
    re: .-1
    
    What a load, Bob.  Your logic falls to pieces when you consider the
    fact that pre-Dean Dome involved Carmichael, which was every bit as
    loud as Duke's snakepit.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.3431ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewWed Feb 26 1992 15:4510
    >1. Dean is incredibly modest.  He won't take praise...
    
    I'm gonna be reel nice here and assume that your usage a the word
    incredible was meant to be taken literally.  Elsewise, you're left
    to explain how this main could allow a False Temple to be erected 
    in his name while he's not only steel alive but coaching, or ftm
    accept without apology induction into that tourist-trap HoF despite
    all a his underachievement.
    
    MrT
17.3432"ftm" ????? translation pleeze.....7389::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Wed Feb 26 1992 15:491
    
17.3433More ...SHALOT::HUNTThis space for rentWed Feb 26 1992 16:5814
17.3434Another Bogus plank in a thoroughly Bogus campaign ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Feb 26 1992 18:0015
    Keep in mind Dean had *zero* to do with the construction of the Smith
    Center, and opposed the building being named after him.  (Said
    something about only naming buildings after people when they're dead.)
    
    The fat cats, who payed for the whole thing (amounting to buying
    themselves great seats which is something they couldn't have in
    Carmichael) wouldn't hear of it though, and Dean finally agreed.
    
    I know you couldn't possibly believe yourself when you talk about Dean
    actually wanting the place quiet.  If you really believe it, you oughta
    get with MChilds and talk hoops.  You've got lots in common.  (i.e.
    clueless)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3435USCTR2::NAHEARNThu Feb 27 1992 12:191
    'ftm'........for that matter?
17.3436Duke by 9SHALOT::HUNTStop! Or Stallone Will Act Again ...Thu Feb 27 1992 14:0631
 Too much Christian Laettner and the Hoos drop the expected one to the Blue
 Devils at Cameron.   Why couldn't they have retired his number next
 weekend against Carolina instead of pumping everybody way up last night ??? 
 
 Grant Hill sprained his ankle in Tuesday practice and will miss 2-4 weeks. 
 So, Bobby Hurley came back early and sent the Crazies and Dickie V into
 orgasmic thighshuddery.   The Crazies were out in full force after getting
 "scolded" lasted week by Krzyzewski for sitting on their hands during the
 Maryland game.  Sigh.
 
 Actually the Hoos didn't play that badly.  Brian Davis "held" Bryant Stith
 to just 17 points ... Stith passed both David Thompson and Jeff Lamp on
 the all-time ACC scoring list.   Passing Lamp (UVA 1981) also put Stith on
 top of the all-time Wahoo scoring list.  He's now 5th, I believe, on the
 all-time ACC list and Mike Gminski is within easy reach with at least 4
 games left.   Stith did leave the court with 0:02 seconds left with what
 looked like a leg cramp or a mild sprain ... Hope it isn't too serious.
 
 Also Junior Burrough is developing into a NUKEWIDEBODYSTUD (tm).  At 6'-8"
 and 240 lbs, he'll be a serious force in the ACC muscle wars in the nexted
 three years to come.  Also Cory Alexander is getting better and better ...
 he certainly is fearless ... the Crazies didn't seem to faze him a bit and
 he took it right to Hurley.
 
 Hoos drop to 12-12, 5-8 in the ACC.   They *must* win their remaining
 three conference games (Clemson, NCSU, Maryland) and then at least make it
 to the semis in Charlotte if they wanna go dancing.   They lose again now
 and they'll have to win the ACC Tournament to make it and that won't
 happen.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3437STRATA::CAPPELThu Feb 27 1992 14:375
    Bob did you notice that Duke gave the game ball to Stith in a ceremony
    after the game and the Duke fans gave him a nice ovation as well.
    
    Saw it on ESPN....
    
17.3438Duke hit with the injury bug ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Feb 27 1992 14:5920
    Have to watch the UNC @ FSU game on tape delay, since my TechHaid
    neighbor scoffed an extra tic for tonights Wake @ GT game.  [Look for
    me directly behind the Wake Forest bench. :^)]
    
    Look for Carolina's defense to be much-improved tonight.  No way is
    Dean gonna allow another horror show like the NC State game.  I'll go
    out on a limb and predict a Carolina 'W'.
    
    The Wake vs. Tech game is a tossup in my mind.  Credit Dave Odom for
    not letting the Deacs to get down after their el-foldo in the 2nd half
    in the DD.  They've come back strong and are now a lock for the
    tournament.  Tech got a win @ Virginia, but barely.  They did seem to
    be going inside more, which is their strength.  (When the loud-mouth
    Barry starts gunning from outside, the Jackets are in trouble cause
    everybody else starts standing around ...)  My coin flip says Wake will
    beat the Jackets ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.34407389::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Thu Feb 27 1992 15:2811
    
    
    set mode <whisper>
    
    isn't Dean being asked to provide advice on his sentence?  Will it be
    double-secret probation?
    
    
    
    Kev
    
17.3441AXIS::ROBICHAUDGreenwell talks, Roger balksThu Feb 27 1992 15:334
    	You mean to tell me that the Australian authorities are letting
    Dean walk on this one?  What a travesty of justice!
    
    				/Don
17.3443ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewThu Feb 27 1992 16:098
    Say, if Pindar left any drugs laying about in the apartment where
    he committed this alleged little-girl-rape why not fly in Walter
    Davis to lower his chin to table level and vacuum all that incriminating
    powder right on up SNUUUUUUF !!
    
    Haw haw haw...
    
    MrT
17.3444RAVEN1::B_ADAMSTime for some ROCK and roll!Thu Feb 27 1992 17:336
    
    	How about that PACK!!!  They have a 14 point lead and only WIN by
    2! over the tiggers!  So far they're not in the cellar!
    
    B.A.
    
17.3445Shopworn Heels drop third straight AUNTB::ROSSRally roolz!Fri Feb 28 1992 02:3011
    Shudder... shudder...  please, someone stop my thighs!!!
    
    Florida State whips Tar Heels 110-94 (or 96)... So much for a better
    defensive effort by the Heels.   Boy, is FSU a playground team... if
    they played with any sense whatsoever they could have won by 30.  They 
    remind me of a Bily Tubbs Oklahoma team.
    
    Okay, Chris, ready to admit yet that the Heels finishing out of the
    Top 20 and not going to the final 16 in the tourney is not exactly
    far-fetched???   They certainly are nowhere near top 10 right now.
    
17.3446Munch all you want, we'll make more ...SHALOT::HUNTStop! Or Stallone Will Act Again ...Fri Feb 28 1992 03:5432
17.3447STRATA::CAPPELFri Feb 28 1992 12:0135
    
    I think Dean has lost the ability to be even a decent game coach.
    
    How many times last night did FSU easily break Carolina's trapping
    defense?  Do you think Dean would learn from this and stop playing
    it? NOOOOOOOOO!  He simply throws the system out there and refuses
    to coach or react to game situations.
    
    How many times did Carolina players refuse to box out, play sloppy
    defense and have sloppy ballhandling(resulting in turnovers)?  FSU's
    defense was non-existant but Carolina did not have the patience to 
    attack it nor did Dean make any attempt to change the offensive flow
    of the game.  And Carolina's 'matador' defense allowed FSU players to
    constantly drive into the paint and dish off for easy layups.  Why
    didn't Dean adjust after several bad defensive games?  You'd never
    see a well-coached team have a string of poor defensive games.
    
    And why didn't Dean call a TO when they got the lead down to 3 and FSU
    went on a tremendous run to build the lead back to 14.  Pat Kennedy 
    called a great TO after a Carolina run and sloppy FSU ballhandling to
    redirect his team back out to a big lead.   Pure coaching blunder.
    
    It has to be an incredibly embarrassing time for NC fans.  Carolina is
    playing on talent alone, purely playground ball.  They are poorly 
    schooled in the basics of the game(playing help man-to-man D, boxing
    out, working the passing game) and play to much 1-1 basketball.
    
    With NC playing such a weak schedule this year, a down year in the ACC,
    the incredible talent level of this team and with the supposed 'best' coach
    alive(not my moniker, I think he's highly overrated), you would expect
    this team to be in the top 6 in the country.
    
    I guess this can be clearly labled a year of incredible underachievment.
    
    Cap
17.3448SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesFri Feb 28 1992 12:074
       Does Snuffy get some kinda bonus for the amount of TOs he has left
    for the last 2 minutes. I thought Crisp said he learned from past
    timeout miscues. I think he's doing it to spite his players.
                                           Denny
17.3449couple of observations...TNPUBS::MCCULLOUGHLindsey's gonna be a sister!!!Fri Feb 28 1992 12:299
Not to jump into the fray, but...

From what I saw, Cap was right, the turnovers keeld the Heels lasted night.  
They seem to spend too much of crunch time out of control.

FSU plays playground ball they have more talent than I thought, but do an awful
lot of 1 on 1 type stuff.

=Bob=
17.3450That was ugly Chris. I'm glad I watched the Simpsons.AXIS::ROBICHAUDMoVaughn-RogainePosterChildFri Feb 28 1992 12:571
    
17.3451CSCOAC::ROLLINS_RFri Feb 28 1992 13:059
> First 3-game losing streak for Snuff in over two years.  Can probably kiss
> the #2 seed in the ACC Tournament goodbye ... Duke clinches top seed and
> FSU has the inside track on the 2 seed.  Phenomenal first year in the
> circuit for the 'Noles.
 
  FSU finished their regular season last night at 19-8 and 11-5, clinching
  the #2 spot in the ACC tournament.  I'm not too sure about your bet with
  MorT, Bob, because the FSU style of play certainly appears to me to be
  conducive to upsets.
17.3452New record for most points surrendered by UNC, too.SHALOT::HUNTStop! Or Stallone Will Act Again ...Fri Feb 28 1992 13:2923
17.3453RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOSeinfeld roolz!Fri Feb 28 1992 13:4419
    As i sat in the local tavern, in the midst of the frenzy of "Biker
    Night/.75 cents Taco Night" I watched the FSU-UNC game.  THe guy next
    to me, some big biker in Harly stuff,with his old lady next to him
    (totally gastly babe, but I wasn't going to say anything...) Was making
    comments about the game, while he tried to have a conversation with me
    about sports.
    
    His two best comments:
    
    1)  On Eric Montross:  "That boy's theme should be "What's it all
    about, ALphie..."
    
    2)  Whatsamatter with that Carolina coach - he stupid or just deaf and
    blind???
    
    I was rooooolllinggggggg.    I'll never be able to look at Eric
    Montross without laughing, and whistling that song - too funny.
    
    JD
17.3454Dean's clear on this oneSCNDRL::HUNTThree little birds sit by my doorstep ...Fri Feb 28 1992 14:3312
17.3455STRATA::CAPPELFri Feb 28 1992 14:354
    Yesterday's USA Today said NC....
    
    But please remember that I wasn't nor did I blame Dean in any way,
    shape or form....
17.3456STRATA::CAPPELFri Feb 28 1992 14:416
    
    USA Today reports that the 110 points scored by FSU was the most 
    in Carolina's history under Dean.
    
    I gues that answers ACChris's response that Dean would have this team 
    ready to play tough defense after several poor defensive efforts.
17.3457CSCOAC::ROLLINS_RFri Feb 28 1992 15:074
>    But please remember that I wasn't nor did I blame Dean in any way,
>    shape or form....

     No, but I think it was easily inferred what your intentions were.
17.3458you said a mouthfulHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Feb 28 1992 15:3813
Tiny Pinder definitely played at State. Tiny was famous for getting
caught stealing underware. Afterwards, it was always fun to see him
playing at Duke, when all the crazies wore briefs on their heads.

re: Tar Heels loss lasted night.

	"There's a flaw in our game somewhere. I feel like I'm repeating	
	what I said after the last game [NC State]. We need to find that 
	flaw and get it corrected."

				Eric Montross. 

TTom
17.3459Atleast he didn't get a T, hahahahahahahaaaCNTROL::CHILDSmake the right choice, TsongasFri Feb 28 1992 15:560
17.3460And you are there.....ISLNDS::REEVEFri Feb 28 1992 16:033
    So Chris-  Hows about a recap of the GT-WF game?
    
    GTC
17.3461Where's Crockmesiter? Fair-weather feign maybe?ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewFri Feb 28 1992 16:591
    
17.3462Munch, munch ...SHALOT::HUNTStop! Or Stallone Will Act Again ...Fri Feb 28 1992 17:188
17.3463ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewFri Feb 28 1992 18:266
    I bet he swallows bird-bones when he eats these blackened birds.
    
    After all, choking on the bone is something his HoF False Idol
    has taken to the level a High Art.
    
    MrT
17.3464RAVEN1::B_ADAMSTime for some ROCK and roll!Fri Feb 28 1992 19:0310
    Zip-a-doo-daa...
    
    	That song ring a bell Chris? :*)
    
    	Three in a row! Third place, third rate coach!
    
    Go PACK!  Kill the heels! In da Tournament!
    
    B.A.
    
17.3465LUNER::BROOKSSoftware : Art Of The StateFri Feb 28 1992 19:318
    re .3463
    
    I wouldn't talk if I were you T, after all, your slo-mo, stop action
    Soup Kitchen Special All You Can Eat, Plate Stacker Enhancer chow job
    with regards to Lil bitty Johnnie should rate you a spot in the Crow
    Hall Of Fame ....
    
    Dr Midnight
17.3466Cap proven factually incorrect yet again.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 28 1992 19:438
    re: .3454
    
    Correct, Bob.  I just completed a search through every player who's
    ever played for Dean (including team managers) and there is no such
    animal as_a Kendal Pinder.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3467Very un-Carolina-like stretch. :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Feb 28 1992 19:4610
    re: UNC
    
    Three (3) L's in a row, with no letup in sight.  A 'W' on the road at
    Maryland will be unexpected at this point ...
    
    Disapointing stretch.  The team must show some moxy at this point and
    suck it up.  This Sunday should show alot.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3468RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOSeinfeld roolz!Fri Feb 28 1992 19:5114
    Chris -
    
    I'll back Cap up.  IN yesterday's USA TODAY, they say Kinder is from
    UNC.  Ditto for the Seattle paper.  In today's Seattle paper, they list
    his as from N.C. State.
    
    The paper made a mistake (actually the WIRE services made the mistake)
    and Cap put it in.   
    
    I had never heard of Kinder, but I read the blurb BEFORE Cap put it in,
    and assumed he was a tar heel.  After reading today's paper, I know he
    was a member of the 'pack.
    
    JD
17.3469Remember Clyde Austin's hot wheels ???SCNDRL::HUNTThree little birds sit by my doorstep ...Fri Feb 28 1992 19:565
I remember Pinder from the ladies panties incidents too, TTom.  That's one 
of the things I *love* about the Cameron Crazies.   You just know they're 
gonna fry a guy when he steps on it like that.

Bob Hunt  
17.3470exSTRATA::CAPPELFri Feb 28 1992 20:0826
    >          <<< Note 17.3466 by RHETT::KNORR "Carolina Blue" >>>
    >             -< Cap proven factually incorrect yet again. >-
    
    Chris that should read, USA Today proven factually incorrect.  You
    have yet to prove anyone in this file factually incorrect on any 
    matter, yet you've been proven incorrect on several instances(Dean's
    NCAA winning % and his failure to sit starters in shooting slumps
    were two well-documented cases of this....)
    
    Anyway we'd like to hear why Dean didn't have his troops ready to 
    play this week when you guaranteed that they would have a good 
    defensive effort.    
    
    It would also be soothing to our eyes to see in writing how Dean
    has underachieved greatly this year with his crop from the greatest
    recruiting class ever and how the team is lacking in basic fundamentals
    and basketball sense.
    
    You had to be embarrassed by yesterday's loss and performance.  They
    definately did not resemble a well-coached team as a well-coached team
    would have beat FSU yesterday with all the mistakes and turnovers that
    they made.
    
    Comments(or excuses......) :-)
                                  
    Cap
17.3471AUNTB::ROSSMrT smells like Teen SpiritMon Mar 02 1992 12:0417
    Tar Heels lose 4th straight game to Maryland, 82-80 after trailing
    51-29 at the half.   Amazingly, despite the Heels woeful streak of
    losses against poor to mediocre teams, they have only been dropped
    from #4 to #13 in the country.   No way are they even close to that.
    How can they be ranked ahead of FSU when the Seminoles beat the Heels
    twice and will also finish ahead in the ACC and only have one more 
    loss overall?   Conspiracy...  If Tar Heels get seeded higher than
    4th in any tournament region, then the Dean-fix is in.
    
    Typical Dean move to start the second half yesterday - Heels come
    out smoking to cut Terps lead from 22 to 14 in about one minute.
    Montross scores a hoop, then next whistle, in comes Salvadori.  WHY???
    No foul trouble.... just Dean being Dean.
    
    And what has Dean done to George Lynch?  Lynch has regressed from a 
    potential All-American to someone who can't find a place in the
    offense.   Lynch will be an NBA player someday... 
17.3472Hey, how do "we" feel about "our" team now?!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewMon Mar 02 1992 14:161
    
17.3473RAVEN1::B_ADAMSThe good, the bad, and the Richmond!Mon Mar 02 1992 18:2014
    Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah
    
    	That song sure is getting a work lately! :*)
    
    	4th in a row....bummer....NOT!
    
    	Did you guys see the Pack almost pull one out in Atlanta? Man, they
    had the game won, but some poor coaching got the best of them.
    
    The Pack will be better next year with all of the frosh getting some
    good playing time.
    
    B.A.
    
17.3474CNTROL::CHILDSmake the right choice, TsongasMon Mar 02 1992 19:153
atleast all the dam nonsense about what a splendid coaching job ole Deanho was
doing has stopped! 
17.3475SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesMon Mar 02 1992 19:214
       So what's the news outta Hotlanta? Did a certain someone take the
    day off?
       Isn't the next Snuff-a-thon set for national TeeVee Wed.?
                                            Denny
17.3476too sick to work maybe?7389::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Mon Mar 02 1992 20:0211
    I thought I remember reading something about a baby blue fan
    threatening to jump outa a tree or off a building or something.
    
    As a matter of fact, I thought I read it here abobut 150-200 notes ago
    but I'm too lazy to look for it.  Maybe a Left-Coaster (!) who still
    has 3 hours to kill could find it and re-post it?
    
    ?????
    
    Kev
    
17.3477Strike 4!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSThe Good,The Bad,The Richmond!Mon Mar 02 1992 21:115
    
    	He's probably on strike along with the Tar Baby cheerleaders! :*)
    
    B.A.
    
17.3478FSOA::JRODOPOULOSIntl. Business SupportTue Mar 03 1992 00:385
    Hey Deano, Get a TO Baaabbbbbyyyy!!!!!  Get a TO !!!!
    
    Glad to oblige,
    
    John "D Cowboys" D.
17.3479ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewTue Mar 03 1992 01:4011
    Wail, that makes sense: ACCrisp is no less sluttish than the Baby
    Blew cheerleaders, who raised a ruckus in South Bend years ago when
    they launched into that straight ahaid bump n' grind not seen in those
    parts outside a talc bar.  Slatterns all!
    
    ACCrock is with "his" Star Hells win or... win.  4 straight losses and
    the guy is as rare as hens teeth.  Haa.
    
    Sure aim impressed with Eric Montross' progrss though!
    
    MrT
17.3480Duke?7389::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Tue Mar 03 1992 02:1511
    Howcome no mention about the Duke - UCLA game over the weekend???
    
    Since it's not a ACC game, is there a problem in figuring what the
    right note is topost it in?  ACC note or College Basketball?
    
    ????
    
    I remain,
    shattering the silence,
    Kev
    
17.3481AXIS::ROBICHAUDThe ProdiROGERgal Son Returns!Tue Mar 03 1992 10:494
17.3482ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYNigel Mansell World Tour 1992Tue Mar 03 1992 14:559
    Isn't it about time for you to redeem joeself /Roachy?  To come out
    a the closet as a QUALITY hoops main?  Why stain joeself wallowing
    around in the muck like this.  Clean up joe ack and come on over to
    the right way... the Bob Way.
    
    If you do you might even rid joeself a that urge to cheat that haunts
    you so.
    
    MrT
17.3483AXIS::ROBICHAUDThe ProdiROGERgal Son Returns!Tue Mar 03 1992 15:321
    	I think I need a few more "sessions" with Ms. Odorgaard.
17.3484Crookwatch IISCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesTue Mar 03 1992 17:311
    Day 2
17.3485She's MINE buddy. All mine. She helps only me. ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYNigel Mansell World Tour 1992Tue Mar 03 1992 18:011
    
17.3486Cap typed it. It was wrong. But he wasn't factually incorrect! Haw haw!!RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportTue Mar 03 1992 18:0133
    If memory serves, I entered ZERO notes lasted year the week prior to
    the Final 4.  Didn't hear nothin' about no Crockwatch then ...
    
    For the record, I_bean on vacation.
    
    As to Carolina, as I articulated to NostradamusRoss recently [who
    ridiculously predicted Carolina to finish out of the Top20 when WE
    were ranked #4 in the USA only four games ago and may end up being
    correct :^(] the Old Testament prophet Job comes to mind when
    contemplating Dean's season.  First his dad dies.  Then his wife gets
    mugged.  Then his team losses four (4) (ooo, it pains me to type that)
    in a row and still must play Georgia Tech and Duke!  The streak could
    reach 6 folks ...
    
    Now if I were an Indiana fan I could easily trot out my boilerplate
    template bemoaning OUR lack of on_floor talent.  It's true that folks
    like Valvano and Vitale have been saying all year that Carolina has
    horrible team quickness and that Dean was doing the best coaching of
    his career, but I refuse to get down on OUR players.  It's also
    blatantly obvious that the Tar Heels are extremely young, made up for
    the most part of sophomores, and the lack of leadership is hurting US
    big-time.  
    
    It's time to build on a fine 2nd half effort against Maryland and win a
    game.  The most important games are still ahead and I honestly believe
    WE'RE capable of making noise in the ACC/NCAA Tournaments.   I ain't
    gonna pretend OUR regular season games don't mean anything and only
    end-of-season peaks do (once again like a certain IU fan) but the past
    can't be changed, the losses can't be turned into wins, and it's time
    to point positively toward the rest of the season.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3487ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina Blew? They SUCKED!Tue Mar 03 1992 18:1527
    Nice job there Crockmeister, you managed to shiv me several times
    and the subject at hand was in no way shape or form related to me
    (much like your queer "relationship" with the Star Hells).
    
    Yeah, sure you could trot out a story about the Star Hells' lack
    a on-court talent?  Please do!  Lack a a center?  Hmmmm, they have
    two 7-footers on their way to the NBA.  No PF?  Before his ruination
    George Lynch was looking great.  No outside shooter?  They've got 
    one a the best in the nation in Hubert.  Brian Reese, gilt-edged
    blue chipper.
    
    They got the PFs, the guards, the centers, they got it all.  No 
    scrub forwards at center or guards at forward here!  This is one solid 
    team.  This is one deep team.  This is one talented team.  This is 
    one...
    
    underachieving team!
    
    HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA !!
    
    Poor MrT
    
    ps, sure hope the Hoosiers don't run up against the poorly coached
    Star Hells in the NCAAs, they'll get wiped by that center they never
    got or the other one that's even better or Hubert's shooting or
    George's muscle or Resse's talent or... I could go on, but *you* get
    the idea, no?
17.3488STRATA::CAPPELTue Mar 03 1992 18:4847
    But Chris you didn't address any coaching deficiencies that were 
    apparent in all 4 losses against mainly vastly inferior talent.
    
    Coaching deficiencies such as:
    
    	- Poor fundamentals on offense creating turnovers and poor shot
    	  selections.
    	- No court awareness appears to have been taught this team again
    	  resulting in poor shot selections, turnovers and defensive
   	  breakdowns in the man-to-man help D.
    	- Terrible rebounding skills(basics such as blocking out are not
    	  apparent with this team).
    	- No logical explanation to substitution patterns, taking out hot
    	  shooters, leaving in players who are not performing, etc.
    	- Missed assigments, especially on defense where it's not a lack
    	  of footspeed that hurt NC but instead they stand around too much
    	  instead of reacting to screens, switches and double-teams.  Their
    	  trap looked pathetic.
    	- Adjustments by the coaching staff are much too slow, allowing 
    	  Carolina to fall to 10-20 point deficits in several games.  Dean
    	  also saves too many TO's for the last minutes.
        - Some of the worst help man-to-man defense that I've seen this
    	  year.  Dean should switch to a zone, if they continue to play
    	  this poorly.
    	- Failure to stick with a system that works(i.e pounding the ball
    	  inside to Montross/Salvadori/Lynch) and failure to stop doing
    	  something that isn't working(trapping against a quick and tall
    	  Maryland and FSU teams).
    	- Failure to attempt to control the tempo of a game(used to be one
    	  of Dean's best coaching abilities) through a patient motion
    	  offense.  Now unless Dean calls a play, the offense consists of
    	  too many 1-on-1, off-balanced and poor shots.
    
    This team is poorly schooled in the fundamentals of both offense,
    defense and rebounding, plays out-of-control and is clearly in 
    disarray at the moment.  The coach shares most of the blame for 
    their performance as of late.  NC is a very talented team(one of the most
    talented in the nation) with many players remaining from last year's 
    final four team so they should be able to run the system.  Clearly
    this is one of Dean's worst coaching jobs and I think you realize 
    this but refuse to admit to it publicly.
    
    I have watched NC everytime they have been on the tube and it is 
    evident that they are not a well coached team at the moment. 
    
    Cap
    
17.3489CAMONE::WAYYou'll be left with empty armsTue Mar 03 1992 18:561
Dean has Alzheimers... film @ 11
17.3490Where has he been with info like that??????7389::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Tue Mar 03 1992 18:5611
    Cap,
    
    WOW!  but I'm not sure you got them all but it certainly IS a good
    start!
    
    Keep it up.
    
    I remain,
    admiring his work,
    Kev
    
17.3491...and that's only "in a nutshell"...SASE::SZABOTue Mar 03 1992 18:571
    
17.3492ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina Blew? They SUCKED!Tue Mar 03 1992 19:2111
    >I ain't gonna pretend OUR regular season games don't mean anything
    
    Yeah you ain't gonna pretend cuz in FACK joe regular season games 
    don't amount to a rat's ass, this regularnonchampionshippretourney-
    tourneywarm-up thing a yourn.
    
    Have a nice money-grubbing Championship spectacle half week regular
    season!
    
    MrT
    
17.3493What a GREAT lunch ;-)RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGetting Rich: The United WayTue Mar 03 1992 19:3214
    
    Jest got back from lunch.  Besides having a thoroughly enjoyable
    burger, I got to get, er watch, the 'Soup De Jour'.  Today's special
    was 'Chicken Bone Soup'.  See, with the burger, one had the opportunity
    to watch a tape of the 1977 Final FOur, and most importantly, the
    champeenship game between Marquette and the TarHells(TM).  Now, the
    poor baby blews had 3 members of the all-tourney team, but thanks to
    the Deanster's system, which at that time called for the good old,
    exciting 4 corners, I got to watch one of the greatest 'Chicken Bones'
    of all times.  To see Al MaGuire's eyes  jest lite UP when the Deanster
    had them go to the 4 corners was enough to make anyone smile - cept
    maybe a tarhell(TM).
    
    JD
17.3494STRATA::CAPPELTue Mar 03 1992 19:4926
    That's right JD,
    
    That's the game where Carolina staged a great comeback with strong,
    aggressive offensive play that had Marquette reeling.  A 18 - 4 run
    that turned a 39-27 deficit into Carolina's first lead which had McGuire 
    worried(as he team did not have the offensive talent level that McGuire
    had, NC was a heavy favorite to win this game with Phil Ford, Walter
    Davis, Mike O'Koren on it....).  Marquette tied the game and with
    12 minutes and 45 seconds left in the game, Dean signalled for the 
    4-corners.  This move, after gaining so much momentum, was considered
    a huge coaching blunder and it played right into McGuire's hands as
    he had his team ready for the offense.  They quickly dropped into the
    passing lanes to cut off back door screens and came up with several 
    key steals.  Then to add insult to injury after going ahead, Marquette
    used it's own version of the 4-corners which Carolina could not defend
    (even though they played against it on a daily basis).  This move took
    Dean and his system by surprise and he did not react to it and
    subsequently lost a title he should have easily won.
    
    If anyone can explain why after an 18-4 run, you would stop playing
    aggressively on offense and defense and go to a delay game.  This
    coaching blunder by the Deanster has to go down in the history books
    as one of the worst coached final games in the NCAA Tourney(only
    because he should have won this game).
    
    Cap
17.3495RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGetting Rich: The United WayTue Mar 03 1992 19:518
    Cap -
    
    I swear you can see MaGuire thinking "I knew it, I KNEW he'd go to it
    !" and getting that look on his face like a fox who discovered the hen
    house door open.   And you could see it on the faces of the Marquette
    players.   Delicious.  Best lunch in a while.
    
    JD
17.3496SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesTue Mar 03 1992 19:523
        Thanks Cap and JD, my thighs are shuddering. I need a drink, off to
    the Pub!
                                         Denny
17.3497DECWET::METZGERNot long until March Madness....Tue Mar 03 1992 22:169
How can the greatest recruiting class of all time now be billed as lacking in 
talent? Has every single one of them regressed since they became part of the
Baby blew corps?

What have they been feeding the NUKEWIDEBODYSTUDS (tm) down in Tar-hell land?


Metz
17.3498ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina Blew? They SUCKED!Tue Mar 03 1992 22:2011
    I must protest.
    
    Yeah, sure, Snuffle's wretched choke-job in '77 was extremely bad
    coaching at its worst.  But how cain you possibly sit there and say
    it was definitely the worst showing total wanton disregard for the
    final game genius-job turned in by Snuffer's soul mate Jim BayWhine
    a decade later in '87?!
    
    Please, respect the grate ones willya!
    
    MrT
17.3499Nothing worse than a mistaken correction, MrT says.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Mar 04 1992 13:4310
    Forget about Dean's moral transgressions against Marquette.  I wanna
    hear more about this Kendal Pinder thing.  Exactly where did Dean go
    wrong?  Did he drag the kid in and force him to watch X-rated movies? 
    Was it just an example of him recruiting a kid who wasn't college
    material?  
    
    Please, let's hear more!  Haw haw haw!!!!1111
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3500RUGBY1::wayYou'll be left with empty armsWed Mar 04 1992 13:516
No, we wanna hear more about Dean's current tail spin.

We wanna hear more about Dean's lack of ability as a game coach.

We wanna hear more about why, with the talent he's had over the
years, he's only got one paltry tainted title....
17.3501WOOF!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina Blew? They SUCKED!Wed Mar 04 1992 14:105
    No surprise that ACCrock is laying diversions.  With as many unanswered
    fack-based question-batches as he's left laying out there it's starting
    to look like a German Shepherd kennel!
    
    MrT
17.3502RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGetting Rich: The United WayWed Mar 04 1992 14:125
    Chris -
    
    Pinder didn't go to UNC.  Didn't you know that?
    
    JD
17.3503STRATA::CAPPELWed Mar 04 1992 14:1537
    The Pinder issue is a dead one, USA Today reported it as the wrong
    college.  I have not blamed nor did blame Dean for anything with
    Pinder(in fact I typed it in verbatim from the paper).  Just reporting
    on a former ACC player.  
    
    >Forget about Dean's moral transgressions against Marquette.  I wanna
    >hear more about this Kendal Pinder thing.  Exactly where did Dean go
    >wrong?  Did he drag the kid in and force him to watch X-rated movies? 
    >Was it just an example of him recruiting a kid who wasn't college
    >material?  

    Figured that you would be too humiliated, embarrassed and depressed to
    deal with Dean's failures this year as a coach and you would cowardly
    cling to this one error by USA Today(not me) as your only hope in
    trying to divert attention from the fact that Dean has failed miserably 
    with his current brand of superstars.
    
    Or do you have comments about the terrible display recently by Carolina
    basketball(mistakes, turnovers, mental lapses, terrible defense) that
    were outlined in a previous note?
    
    Or do you have any comments on why the Deanster would bring his high
    powered offense to a screeching halt against Marquette while on an 18-4
    run by going to the 4-corners?
    
    Just can't deal with his failures and shortcomings, can you?????
    
    I think I deserve to direct one HAWHAHAHAHAHAHAW at you by causing you
    to act in such a cowardly manner instead of addressing the obvious 
    coaching flaws and mistakes made by your hero this year.
    
    HAWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :-)
    
    Cap
    
    
    
17.3504Thypocrisy (tm) hits a low water mark.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Mar 04 1992 14:5920
    Hmm, now let me get this straight.  Weasels have conceded for years now
    that Dean racks up boo-koo wins during the meaningless regular season. 
    (70+%, BTW.)  It's only come tourney-time that he "chokes".
    
    Now he's hit a rough stretch during this "meaningless" regular season
    (something the Pantheon-dweller Knight has done innumerable times, but
    those L's were all part of his well-laid plan to peak for the tourney)
    and all of a sudden this highlights what a horrid coach he is.
    
    Why not just fess up to the fact that you're gonna bash Dean each and
    every chance you get.  Every L is his fault.  Ever W is talent. 
    Everytime Carolina doesn't win a Title it's a choke.  Every recruit
    that comes to Chapel Hill is a superstar.  Every moral transgression to
    ever befall an ex-Tar Heel is Dean's fault.  Every successful alumni
    woulda done the same if he'd gone to UNLV.  His high graduation rate is
    tainted cause he dares to recruit good students.  And on and on and on
    it goes ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3505STRATA::CAPPELWed Mar 04 1992 15:3133
    
    No the things you listed are only a part of your vivid imagination.
    
    The way the system in the ACC Note usually works is:
    
    1. ACChris takes every positive thing that comes out or happens at
       NC(even small and meaningless positives) and credits only Dean
       Smith for this fantastic positive event.  He uses this to point
       out how great Dean Smith is....
    2. Scores of noters point out factually true events that contradict
       ACChris's points and shows that if Dean is responsible for all
       that is good, than he must also be responsible for all that is bad.
    3. ACChris does not acknowledge this, creates a convenient excuse on
       why Dean is not at fault and then calls anyone who pointed out a
       wrong a hypocrite.
    
    If you want to continue be SCARED of the issues at hand and continue
    to ignore the obvious failures inherent within Dean and the system
    than keep clinging to your fantasies and diverting the issues.
    
    So are you going to address the coaching failures displayed this season
    (even in their wins), or continue to create diversions.  If you need to
    create diversions to deal with the reality of a Carolina team that is
    poorly coached at the moment than please continue to do so....
    
    It must be the only thing keeping you afloat right now.....:-)
    
    Cap
    
    P.S. I see you've conveniently IgKnorred the note Bob Hunt entered 
    concerning how you stated that Larry Johnson was the correct pick for
    Charlotte.  Kind of what you're doing right here....right????
    
17.3506As a test of preparation, let's see how it plays outNAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 04 1992 15:3816
         
    No, Chris, I would have to say that even you must be concerned that
    the Heels have taken this nosedive just as the season is winding down.
    If it were earlier, you're correct, no big deal.  But this kind of a
    finish is relevant to the question of what kind of state of readiness
    Dean has put his team in for the NCAAs.
    
    If the Tar Heels actually are following some kind of well-conceived 
    master plan in playing horrible defense while losing game after game 
    and actually do go deep into the tournament, I'll be the first to admit 
    that this losing streak meant nothing.  I think it's more likely that
    the Heels won't advance past 16 (maybe even 32) and that you should be 
    admitting that indeed something went badly awry...
    
    glenn
    
17.3507simple explanation for UNC demise:it's springCTHQ3::LEARYBeano:PreventGasBeforeItStartsWed Mar 04 1992 15:401
    
17.3508A direct questionSTRATA::CAPPELWed Mar 04 1992 15:4354
    
    Chris are any of the following points true or not true based on 
    NC's play the last two weeks?
    
                     <<< Note 17.3488 by STRATA::CAPPEL >>>
    
    But Chris you didn't address any coaching deficiencies that were 
    apparent in all 4 losses against mainly vastly inferior talent.
    
    Coaching deficiencies such as:
    
    	- Poor fundamentals on offense creating turnovers and poor shot
    	  selections.
    	- No court awareness appears to have been taught this team again
    	  resulting in poor shot selections, turnovers and defensive
   	  breakdowns in the man-to-man help D.
    	- Terrible rebounding skills(basics such as blocking out are not
    	  apparent with this team).
    	- No logical explanation to substitution patterns, taking out hot
    	  shooters, leaving in players who are not performing, etc.
    	- Missed assigments, especially on defense where it's not a lack
    	  of footspeed that hurt NC but instead they stand around too much
    	  instead of reacting to screens, switches and double-teams.  Their
    	  trap looked pathetic.
    	- Adjustments by the coaching staff are much too slow, allowing 
    	  Carolina to fall to 10-20 point deficits in several games.  Dean
    	  also saves too many TO's for the last minutes.
        - Some of the worst help man-to-man defense that I've seen this
    	  year.  Dean should switch to a zone, if they continue to play
    	  this poorly.
    	- Failure to stick with a system that works(i.e pounding the ball
    	  inside to Montross/Salvadori/Lynch) and failure to stop doing
    	  something that isn't working(trapping against a quick and tall
    	  Maryland and FSU teams).
    	- Failure to attempt to control the tempo of a game(used to be one
    	  of Dean's best coaching abilities) through a patient motion
    	  offense.  Now unless Dean calls a play, the offense consists of
    	  too many 1-on-1, off-balanced and poor shots.
    
    This team is poorly schooled in the fundamentals of both offense,
    defense and rebounding, plays out-of-control and is clearly in 
    disarray at the moment.  The coach shares most of the blame for 
    their performance as of late.  NC is a very talented team(one of the most
    talented in the nation) with many players remaining from last year's 
    final four team so they should be able to run the system.  Clearly
    this is one of Dean's worst coaching jobs and I think you realize 
    this but refuse to admit to it publicly.
    
    I have watched NC everytime they have been on the tube and it is 
    evident that they are not a well coached team at the moment. 
                                 
    Cap
    
    
17.3509ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina Blew? They SUCKED!Wed Mar 04 1992 15:5511
    - Bob's winning percentage is 70%+ also
    
    - Bob's NCAA tournament winning percentage is right up there with
      Snuffy's
    
    - Snuffer has as many, probably more, early round exits than Bob
    
    - Bob has done all this despite his lousy recruiting track record,
      which overachieving teamwork is his sublime charm
    
    MrT
17.3510Just how much coaching experience you got, Cap?RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Mar 04 1992 16:1929
    Funny what a difference two (2) weeks makes.  At that point we'd just
    knocked off the #1 team in the country and come back from a 22-point
    deficiet to beat Wake Forest.  At that point in time I don't recall
    seeing too many notes on Dean's poor coaching.
    
    This team is in a slump.  PERIOD.  It happens.  It happened to
    Virginia.  It happened to Georgia Tech.  (Two teams at least as equally
    talented as Carolina, though suffering from the same common problem
    ingredients: YOUTH and LACK OF LEADERSHIP.)
    
    If ya wanna blast Dean for all of Carolina's woes, fine.  He's man
    enough to take it and so am I.  Just understand that losing streaks
    happen, and that the fact that this is the worst streak Carolina's been
    on since (GULP!) 1-9-6-5 is a tremendous tribute to Dean and the
    program.
    
    As to me pointing out everything good in Dean, so what?  I'm a fan; I
    admire the man; I admire the program.  What's wrong with pointing out
    the postive things he's accomplished, specifically in the areas not
    related to winning basketball games?
    
    The man does things the right way.  If anything you should focus in on
    this instead of the ridiculous MondayMorningQuarterbackMicroscope that
    you're putting on his game-coaching, as if any of you could possibly
    consider yourselves knowledgeable enough to critique a man who's turned
    out gobs of successful NBA and collegiate coaches.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3511FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Wed Mar 04 1992 16:2330
    Chris, as a friend and not as a Weasel, I can give you an explanation
    of why.
    
    You admire Dean Smith quite a bit.  There's nothing wrong with that.  I
    wish my school had a coach as good as him (albeit a little bit more
    successful in the NCAA tournament).
    
    Dean Smith is a coach who a lot of people in here don't like.  Some
    (Bob Hunt) are because of the fact that his school usually loses to
    North Carolina.  Some don't like Dean because he comes across as
    sanctimonius.  Some because they can't stand his greatest innovation,
    the 4-corner offense.  Some because of the fact he stifled arguably the
    greatest talent in basketball history, Michael Jordan.  Some because of
    the blind spots regarding his weaknesses.  Some because of all of the
    above.
    
    Unfortunately, your notes, more so than any other notes in here about
    any other coach/program, come across as worshipful.  You credit Smith
    with everything good about North Carolina basketball and almost never
    lay any blame on him for anything that goes bad.  The combination of
    the two of these makes the weasels more willing and eager to bash Dean
    for everything that goes bad, whether or not it's his fault - like it
    or not, Chris, it's going to draw fire.
    
    You're not going to stop worshipping, and I accept that.  In doing so,
    however, you have to accept the fact that Smith (and you) are going to
    draw flak for every little thing that happens, whether or not it's his
    fault.  That's why this is the endless rathole that it is.
    
    John
17.3512Don't dump on all of us; if Dean gets results he gets creditNAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 04 1992 16:2711
    
    So do you or don't you (not both) feel that this Carolina team, playing
    their way out of the current "slump", will advance to the level of the
    Final 8, a level they were playing at before the skid (and which I give
    credit to Dean Smith for considering he does have some problems with
    this squad), Chris?  Remember, I gave my honest assessment that if
    Indiana doesn't make it that far it will be a disappointing effort from
    the Hoosiers *and* Bob Knight.
    
    glenn
    
17.3513STRATA::CAPPELWed Mar 04 1992 16:3011
    Chris,
    
    John has hit it exactly(and I've told you similar things in mail).
    
    As soon as you get off the Dean-worship bandwagon and admit and/or
    agree to some valid criticisms than the rathole will slowly fade away.
                                                                          
    Dean can still be great in your eyes and others and STILL have 
    weaknesses(something you have never admitted).
    
    Cap
17.3514AUNTB::ROSSSchwingggg!Wed Mar 04 1992 17:159
    A specific criticism of Dean's handling of Montross - 
    
    	Why has UNC taught Montross to use the technique of "stand flat
    on the floor with arms raised" to defend inside.   Montross should be
    challenging shooters inside, especially considering his size and
    considering that he has an adequate backup available if he gets into
    foul trouble.
    
    And, please, Chris, what has happened to George Lynch???? 
17.3515RAVEN1::B_ADAMSThe Good,The Bad,The Richmond!Wed Mar 04 1992 17:178
    
    	Let me get this straight...When a team is in a *slump* the coach
    has planned to lose?
    
    	Hum...that's make it interesting to the bookies don't cha thank?
    
    B.A.
    
17.3516Dean <> God. There, I said it.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Mar 04 1992 17:2317
    No_doubt true, John, but I wouldn't say I "worship" Dean.  I've pointed
    out his flaws plenty_o times, few as they may be.  
    
    Anyway I'm off on the high road now, pointing to tonights Tech @ UNC
    game.  I sincerely hope the home crowd gets behind the Heels early and
    often to give em the emotional lift they so desperately need.  One
    thing worth pointing out as well is how phenomenally well some of the
    teams that have beaten Carolina have played.  NC State had open shots
    and our defense wasn't great, but they shot they crap outa the ball. 
    FSU was on fire, and Maryland threw in some very unlikely shots.
    
    Not to say UNC has played exceptionally well.  Only that we coulda
    easily won 1,2, or 3 of those games had the tide turned ever-so
    slightly.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3517ND was superpsyched ta play 'NC? you know YCTHQ3::LEARYBeano:PreventGasBeforeItStartsWed Mar 04 1992 17:319
    Chris,
    Give credit where credit is due,mon. When you is beat you is beat.
    No matter how well/poor the opposition or UNC plays, don't use
    that as an excuse. Take pride in the fact that EVERY team loves ta
    beat UNC in BBall. Why? Reputation, and in regular season, deservedly
    so. In tournament play, however, questions arise as you are well aware.
    
    MikeL
    
17.3518RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGetting Rich: The United WayWed Mar 04 1992 17:456
    I gotta call that lunch place and find out when they are going to show
    the 1984 Indiana-UNC game....that might be a really great lunch.
    
    ;-)
    
    jd
17.3519pick pick pick.....7389::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Wed Mar 04 1992 17:468
    Ninj,
    
    Ya forgot one - It's just plain FUN ta bash Snuffy!
    
    hth,
    
    Kev
    
17.3520RUGBY1::wayYou'll be left with empty armsWed Mar 04 1992 17:5415
Sincerely, you only have to worry about a loss if you have not given
it your best effort.

That's why we're always all over Dean.  We're not saying he's not great at
some facets, but it seems that with all of the talent he has had, that
his system has only carried him so far.   At that point, you need to 
break new barriers...


I think that going to the four corners so early against Marquette shows
that Dean is willing to get to a certain point, but doesn't have the killer
instinct to make sure that the enemy is truly daid....


'Saw
17.3521People'd rather beat us than Duke, even this year.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Mar 04 1992 18:0210
    There's no doubt, Kev, that people *LUV* to beat Carolina.  No doubt
    whatsoever.
    
    The fact that despite constantly being fully geared up for the task
    they've historically accomplished it so seldom [the last 2 weeks not
    withstanding :^(] is perhaps Dean's greatest basketball legacy.  (i.e.
    Consistent Excellence)  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3522I wanna hear about the Final 8, Chris!NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 04 1992 18:211
    
17.3523Need a win, *any* win.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Mar 04 1992 18:236
    Shadup, Waugamain!  I'm more concerned with Georgia Tech tonight.  
    
    :^|	  <-----  GAME FACE
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3524AXIS::ROBICHAUDYouDownWithRichieHebner?Wed Mar 04 1992 18:263
    	Me too Chris
    
    :^H   <---- GAME FACE (with chicken bone lodged in middle)
17.3525Oh Oh,Slasher's a teeterin'CTHQ3::LEARYBeano:PreventGasBeforeItStartsWed Mar 04 1992 18:301
    
17.3526AXIS::ROBICHAUDYouDownWithRichieHebner?Wed Mar 04 1992 18:323
    	Sorry, had too much to drink last night.
    
    8^|	   P.C. CORRECT GAME FACE (with glasses on)
17.3527new Anti in the hopper?ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina Blew? They SUCKED!Wed Mar 04 1992 19:0314
    >   :^H  <---- GAME FACE (with chicken bone lodged in middle)
    
    What's this?  Is /Roachmeister finally making his move back into 
    the anti-camp?
    
    Well well, goot.  What we're seeing here is not unlike hairy brown
    rats jumping off the sinking ship, or volunteers for a bad candidate
    ringing up the new leader's campaign manager, or... cultists streaming
    out a the Nirvana Camp after allegations of brainwashing, sex-abuse -
    or fraud.
    
    Come on down!
    
    MrT
17.3528SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesWed Mar 04 1992 19:072
       Don't believe it T. He was wearing his Baby Blew hat lasted night!
                                    Denny
17.3529AXIS::ROBICHAUD8^|Wed Mar 04 1992 19:091
    	Speakin' a rats, has FatBob done any more pizza commercials?
17.3530STRATA::CAPPELWed Mar 04 1992 19:1413
    
    Chris what were your opinions on the quality of play of NC during the
    4 game losing streak both offensively and defensively.  Do you agree or
    disagree with the observations listed?
    
    Or can't you talk objectively about Carolina basketball.
    
    I see a pattern, especially since NC has played poorly in several 
    other games(coming back from double digit defecits against Clemson,
    Jacksonville and Wake Forest where they were lucky to come away with
    the W).
    
    Cap
17.353112-4 vs Top 25HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Mar 04 1992 19:218
I didn't get the full stats but they flashed a ditty during one of the
games last night on ESPN. It was the record each conference has against
the current Top 25 teams.

Only one conference was above .500: the ACC at 12-4. The next conference
was the Big 8, I think, at .500 (something like 4-4).

TTom
17.3532ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina Blew? They SUCKED!Wed Mar 04 1992 19:309
    Y'know, the position ACCrock has got himself in here - let's be 
    polite and call it something between group-scolding and group
    therapy - reminds me a lot a a kid at camp who's been turned in
    one time to many to the Camp Counselors for choking the chicken
    in the cabin.
    
    German Shephard kennel!  WOOF.
    
    MrT
17.3533"Objectivity" and "Weasel" are mutually exclusive.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Mar 04 1992 20:207
    No, the position I've gotten myself into falls more along the lines of
    a victim of "Group Think", or, perhaps more accurately, "Mob Mentality".
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3534Zonked out7389::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Thu Mar 05 1992 11:597
    I fell asleep at the half.  Anybody care to share the results of the GT
    UNC game?
    
    I remain,
    still sleepy,
    Kev
    
17.3535Und Duke escapes by 1 over ClemsuckCTHQ3::LEARYBeano:PreventGasBeforeItStartsThu Mar 05 1992 12:217
    Kev,
    University of Nary a Champeenship 79
    Georgia Blecch                    75
    
    HTH
    MikeL
                         
17.3536Ya got your win, Chris, whattabout the Final 8?! ;-)NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Mar 05 1992 12:251
    
17.3537RUGBY1::wayKO says: &quot;We're 2 legit 2 quit&quot;Thu Mar 05 1992 12:3119
I too was in bed before the half.

I had the best intentions of watching the game whilst experiencing
thigh shuddering waves of pleasure.  I even brought a roll of Bounty
into the living room with me.

However, the energy expended earlier in the evening during my workout
was much greater than anticipated, and I was just too tuckered out
to watch it.

(As an aside, I've got to say that bench pressing is best when done to
Muddy Water's Mannish Boy:   "Ain't that a man" (1, phew) "I spell M"
(2, phew) "A chil'" (3 argh) "N. That represent Man" (4.....))


Did see a couple of good plays by that Forrest dude....


'Saw
17.3538Git outa my face, Waugamain! ;^(RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Mar 05 1992 12:311
    
17.3539STRATA::CAPPELThu Mar 05 1992 12:3911
    
    Chris,
    
    Did you agree or disagree that Dean was at fault for the horrendous
    defense and terrible play of the Heels over their 4 game losing streak?
    
    Cap
    
    P.S Since Chris uses Vitale's quotes as expert commentary at times, I
    was wondering if he caught Dickie's comments on how he feels that
    Montross should be a MUCH BETTER PLAYER than he is right now....
17.3540STRATA::CAPPELThu Mar 05 1992 12:4159
An interesting article on NC in SI this week.....

I've cut out some of the more interesting passages with my comments after
the quotes..


BACK ON THEIR HEELS

'This is the time of year when Top 25 teams are supposed to be rounding into
shape for the NCAA Tournament, NC is doing just the opposite.  The Tar Heels
82-80 loss at Maryland was their 4th straight defeat and their longest losing
streak in 27 years.  The Heels in fact haven't played a solid game since they
upset Duke on Feb. 5th.'

This has to be the fault of the Coach, right Chris?

'How concerned is Dean Smith?  Probably more than he is letting on.  Smith chose
to concentrate on how well his team played in the 2nd half against Maryland
when the heels overcame a 22 point deficit.  But Smith's behavior at
intermission, when he stomped out of the locker room in disgust after giving
his players a rare tongue lashing, might have been more indicative of his
real feelings.'

Wow is Dean Smith losing it?  Many technical fouls this year.  Getting ejected
from Carolina's most important game last year.  Yelling at his players(remember
someone has said that this could really damage a young kid's psyche).  
    
But next are the best quotes:

'Everybody's hot when they play us, says center Eric Montross'
'We're catching opponents at the peak of their games, said guard Hubert Davis'

Hot teams, opponents playing their best ball, where have we heard those
excuses before......?

'3 of the teams that beat the Tar Heels in succession all ended losing streaks
with their wins'

I thought the players said they were playing opponents at the peak of their
games.....

'NC has been especially woeful on defense.'

Hey Chris heard this statement before?????  Is it the fault of the coach???

And finally for the best part of the article....

'The team's recent struggles have prompted critics to trot out some
time-honored knocks against Smith.  The complaint is heard that some of the
most talented players stop developing, while others - Walter Davis and Michael
Jordan being prime examples-don't really flourish until they turn pro.  The
system is the star, with the result, it is said, that players are reluctant
to take charge when the game is on the line'

Which is why Dean and NC underachieve so often......

Cap
    
17.3541Is it Dean's fault that he's won 735 games? Yup.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Mar 05 1992 13:3311
    > Which is why Dean and NC underachieve so often....
    
    Oh yes indeed.  Underachieve to the tune of a winning percentage of
    > 70% or, to put it in terms you can get your arms around, better than
    Bob Knight.  (Despite a schedule that has to be considered tougher.)
    
    Lemme ask this though: What are your thoughts on Jim Calhoun, head
    coach of the Connecticut Huskies?  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3542STRATA::CAPPELThu Mar 05 1992 13:454
    >Lemme ask this though: What are your thoughts on Jim Calhoun, head
    >coach of the Connecticut Huskies?  
    
    Not till you have the courage to answer my questions.....:-)
17.3543Bob and dan'l put me up to this --- honest! :-)WMOIS::BARROWSJLions &amp; Tigers &amp; Bears...oh my!Thu Mar 05 1992 13:506
    Hahahahha.
    
    Tarheel underwear?  ACChris, why, I've never heard of such a thang!
    Must've been a most amusing sight. :^)
    
    Jo
17.3544RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOAchoo. Your So Good LookingThu Mar 05 1992 13:5320
    Now, here's a Dean disciple who learned something from Dean:
    
    
    
    
    NOT!
    
    
    
    
    Kansas Coach Roy Williams on his team's loss to Iowa State last night:
    
    "I  don't think I've ever done such a poor job of getting a team ready
    to play a game.  They outran us up and down the floor."
    
    No excuses about "hot" teams. No whining about the refs.  No 'finals'
    week excuses.  NO injury excuses.   He knew what time it was the whole
    game.  Refreshing.  
    
    JD
17.3545RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOAchoo. Your So Good LookingThu Mar 05 1992 13:5726
    
    Chiris -
    
    Here are some of my thoughts on Jim Calhoun.
    
    The Huskies went into a tailspin, and Calhoun obviously did a horrible
    job preparing them for each of those games.  The played horribly, and
    if Calhoun hasn't changed since his Northeastern days (and I doubt he
    has) - he'll rest the blame squarely on HIS shoulders.
    
    The Huskies have underachieved this year.  They should be a top 10 team
    - top 15 at the least.   No excuses.
    
    This is, however, the first time I can remember a Calhoun team
    underachieving - his Northeastern teams were overachievers, as have
    been his UCONN teams.  Hopefully, this won't become a trend.
    
    And remember, Calhoun isn't a 'legend' nor is the Huskies' arena named
    after him.
    
    See Chris - no excuses about injuries (although they've had them), no
    excuses about hot teams (they've met them), etc.  Why?  Because a good
    coach OVERCOMES those obstacles.  And IMO, Jim Calhoun has not been a
    good coach this year.
    
    JD
17.3546Williams most certainly did learn from Dean.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Mar 05 1992 13:5919
    re: JD
    
    When have you ever heard Dean Smith make excuses after a loss?  I for
    one have heard him comment *numerous* times that he didn't feel he
    prepared his team properly, etc.  In fact, after virtually every loss
    Dean bellies up and shoulders the blame.
    
    If anything, blame me for excuse-making, although I can never recall
    ever blaming a referee for a loss.  Injuries and "hot" teams are all
    part of the game and don't reflect excuses so much as Objective
    Analysis.
    
    
    re: Cap
    
    I didn't think you'd answer.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3547Unreal.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Mar 05 1992 14:0212
    re: JD (more)
    
    I haven't made a single excuse for our disapointing two (2) week
    stretch.  Not one.  In fact I've critized our defense as well as some
    of Dean's subsitution patterns.  I've also offered congratulations to
    the opponent, recognizing that, believe it or not, they do have
    something to do with the outcome of every game Carolina plays.
    
    WHADAYA WANT, BLOOD??!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3548BSS::JCOTANCHThu Mar 05 1992 14:079
    I see what you guys mean about that Carolina crowd - it's more like an
    NBA crowd.  Doesn't even compare to crowds at places like Duke or
    Kansas.
    
    Loved that drive to the hoop by Travis Best about midway thru the 2nd
    half.
    
    
    Joe
17.3549Belly up, Chris (I did...)NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Mar 05 1992 14:108
    
    > WHADAYA WANT, BLOOD??!!
    
    Naw, just a prediction on Dean's preparation of Final 8-talent for
    Final 8-performance...
    
    glenn
    
17.3550STRATA::CAPPELThu Mar 05 1992 14:1622
    >Lemme ask this though: What are your thoughts on Jim Calhoun, head
    >coach of the Connecticut Huskies?  
    
    I was joking because you have this tendency to ask questions to cover
    the fact that your probably either too embarrassed or scared to answer
    objective question put forth to you.
    
    My answer is that I haven't seen Calhoun coach one game this year,
    so I don't know what their problem is...I will however try to make
    it a point to watch their next game.  I will however say that long 
    losing streaks come about for basically two reasons: 1) Lack of talent and
    2) Poor coaching.  NC and UCONN have loads of talent so it must be
    poor coaching.
    
    I have watched at least 10 NC games this year(taped most of them) and
    see a terribly coached team, fundamentally, offensively and 
    defensively.
    
    Now you going to answer my question or continue to hide from them???
    
    Cap
    
17.3551RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOAchoo! You're SO Good LookingThu Mar 05 1992 14:1713
    Chris -
    
    Why so touchy?
    
    I answered my thoughts on Calhoun. And I lashed him.  I put in the
    quote on Williams.
    
    About never blaming refs?  See Pavla, Pete (re: 1991 Final Four)
    
    The Heels won last night, you should be happy.  HUbert Davis is
    carrying the team.
    
    JD
17.3552RUGBY1::wayYou'll be left with empty armsThu Mar 05 1992 14:4129
UCONN this year.

I haven't seen many games, but there are a couple of things I've
gathered from what I have seen and what I've read.


Lack of Offense.  The Huskies, in my mind, have always tended to be
a team who relied on an overpowering defense, and scored enough points
to win.  The defense didn't seem to be there this year.  Early on the
wins were due mainly, I thought, to a red hot Chris Smith.  He cooled,
no one stepped up to the front to take over.

Lack of Confidence.  The Huskies have found ways to lose games that
they should have won.  That translates, from what I've seen, into 
a lack of confidence.


These are problems that a coach can fix, and evidently Calhoun hasn't
done it this year.  Is he underachieving?  Yep.  At least all the folks
in Connecticut feel so.  


I think Calhoun is having an off-year, along with the players.  I'm not
making any predictions, but there have been a lot of times in sport where
I've seen a team have an off year, and the following year come back
and blow everyone away....


'Saw
17.3553RAVEN1::B_ADAMSThe Good,The Bad,The Richmond!Thu Mar 05 1992 14:429
    
    	O.K. Now that we've seen that Baby Blue can win a game...Let's here
    about the squeaker that Duke pulled out in Clemson! I need some *NEW*
    News!
    
    BTW. Congrat's Bob on the Va win over the Pack...Stith is heck!
    
    B.A>
    
17.3554Prepare for Cap Spin Control. RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Mar 05 1992 14:5211
    > I will however say that long losing streaks come about for basically 
    > two reasons: 1) Lack of talent and 2) Poor coaching.  NC and UCONN have 
    > loads of talent so it must be poor coaching.
    
    So in other words, North Carolina has been well-coached for almost 30
    years now (last losing streak that reached *4* was when the USA had LBJ
    as President and was warming up to the Vietnam War), which is what I've
    been saying for a long, long time.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3555STRATA::CAPPELThu Mar 05 1992 15:1341
    >> I will however say that long losing streaks come about for basically 
    >> two reasons: 1) Lack of talent and 2) Poor coaching.  NC and UCONN have 
    >> loads of talent so it must be poor coaching.
    
    >So in other words, North Carolina has been well-coached for almost 30
    >years now (last losing streak that reached *4* was when the USA had LBJ
    >as President and was warming up to the Vietnam War), which is what I've
    >been saying for a long, long time.
    
    No MEGA MEGA Talented and until recent years(this year does not count),
    Dean has always had 10-14 gimme games a season that he wins on talent 
    alone.  Only when it comes to games in the NCAA Tourney where talent
    levels are fairly equal do we see how good of a 'game' coach Smith
    is...(which is poor)
    
    The system will win when the talent level is high(and please explain
    when the last time Dean did not have an extremely talented team).
    
    If his winning % during the season than you must agree that Jerry
    Tarkanian and Jim Boeheim and countless others are his equal since
    they post similar winning %'s with less talent.  Plus you must also
    agree that Knight is a superior coach since he posts an extremely high
    winning %, has more titles and also has had considerably less talent
    at IU than NC over the last 25 years.  
    
    So I agree with you, Dean ranks up there with the Tarkanian's and
    Boeheims of the coaching world since he posts outrageous winning 
    %'s followed by tournament choke jobs.....
    
    Are you going to answer the question I posed or are you going to 
    continue the Spin Control(something you practice frequently and accuse
    everyone else of using).  I'll even repeat it for you....
    
    Was Dean Smith responsible for the poor play of Carolina over the last
    month(even in their winning games they've played extremely poorly) on
    the offensive and defensive ends?
    
    
    Cap
    
    
17.3556Their way of gettin' us into the ACC note...ICS::FINUCANEHumina_swoon_thudThu Mar 05 1992 15:1610
    
    ....still waitin' to hear about this Tarheels underwear episode,
        ACChris.
    
    Bob Hunt and dan'l said it was quite the site.
    
    8-)
    
    
    Cath
17.3557ICS::FINUCANEHumina_swoon_thudThu Mar 05 1992 15:178
    
    
    ...quite the *sight*.
    
    
    Er, Cath
    
    
17.3558Did you say quite the slight? shame! 8^)CTHQ3::LEARYBeano:PreventGasBeforeItStartsThu Mar 05 1992 15:221
    
17.3559AXIS::ROBICHAUDThu Mar 05 1992 15:241
    	Stop "peppering" Chris with all these questions.
17.3560AXIS::CHAPPELFor DUTY and HUMANITYThu Mar 05 1992 15:309
17.3561WMOIS::BARROWSJTarheel underwear? Oh my!Thu Mar 05 1992 15:351
    Patiently awaiting an answer ......
17.3562were they autographed by Dean?CTHQ3::LEARYBeano:PreventGasBeforeItStartsThu Mar 05 1992 15:401
    
17.3563WMOIS::BARROWSJTarheel underwear? Oh my!Thu Mar 05 1992 15:495
    I dunno.
    
    I was only told the story.  Maybe Bob and dan'l could answer?
    
    Jo
17.3564ACC note is wear the action is, as usual. :^)RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Mar 05 1992 16:2121
    re: Cap
    
    Was Dean responsible for the poor play?  Was Bob responsible for
    IU's poor play agains UCLA?  Is Calhoun responsible for UConn losing 7
    of 8?  Is Pitino responsible for Kentucky's 'L' at Florida last night?
    
    Stupid questions, each of 'em.
    
    
    re: underwear
    
    Naw, my underwear is battleship gray.  Have gotten Dean's autograph
    several times though, and he did pinch my daughters cheek, but axing
    him to sign my briefs woulda been, er, tacky!  ;^)
    
    Most amazing part of dancing wif Pepper with my underwear on were all
    the guys in the front row with Carolina hats on screaming for me to do,
    er, unspeakable thangs with this solidly built lass, presumably in
    front of hundreds of thoroughly intoxitated ACC fans!  
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3565FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu Mar 05 1992 16:2710
    If a coach is going to be glorified so much in college basketball
    (after all, to many folks, the coach is the program, not the players
    and the coach is deified) and receive the bulk of the credit for
    winning (as so often happens, rightly or wrongly) then that same coach
    can for damn certain take the blame for the losses (again rightly or
    wrongly).
    
    Whatever is wrong with the UConn Huskies this year, I like it!  :-)
    
    John
17.3566Correct, as usual.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Mar 05 1992 16:286
    re: .-1
    
    Obviously.  That's my point.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3567STRATA::CAPPELThu Mar 05 1992 16:4632
    >Obviously.  That's my point.
    
    >- ACC Chris
    
    Yes but the best part is I know what the answer is, you know what the
    answer is, but your still too scared to put it down in words.  Also 
    I don't know who UCONN lost to you but NC lost to 4 teams that they
    were favored to beat(heavily favored in 3 of the games).  
    
    Your analogy about a 1-game scenario is as stupid as they come.  I
    only asked if Carolina's recent poor play(outlined very nicely in
    a previous note) was the fault of the coach.  When you see a team that
    is playing that poorly on defense(which you admitted), have extemely
    poor fundamentals, are turning the ball over 15-25 times per game
    and taking stupid shots than the fault lies solely with the coach
    because it's obvious that he is not doing his job.  If Carolina played
    near perfect ball and we're beaten than I wouldn't have a legitimate
    claim.  However they've played very poorly over the last month(even in
    their wins) and it's obvious that they are a team that is in disarray
    on both ends of the floor.  
    
    Do you agree that this is a poorly coached team(at the moment, maybe 
    Dean will turn them around in time for the tourney)?
    
    Cap
    
    P.S.So do you agree with the other premise; that is that Tarkanian = 
    Boeheim = Smith because like you said regular season victories mean oh so 
    much. :-)
    
    
    
17.3568Ohmigawd!WMOIS::BARROWSJTarheel underwear? Oh my!Thu Mar 05 1992 16:473
    You had a point while wearing your Tarheel underwear?
    
    Jo
17.3569TNPUBS::MCCULLOUGHLindsey's gonna be a sister!!!Thu Mar 05 1992 16:493
17.3570Get yer mind outta da gutta!WMOIS::BARROWSJTarheel underwear? Oh my!Thu Mar 05 1992 17:015
    That's not what I meant.
    
    Sheesh.
    
    Jo
17.3571CELTIK::JACOBJust DON'T light a match!!Thu Mar 05 1992 17:2214
    
    >>but axing
    >>him to sign my briefs woulda been, er, tacky!  ;^)         
    
    Probly pretty smelly, too!!!
    
    
    Re. Jo & the "point"
    
    Funny I took it the same way he did.  But then, I KEEP my mind near or
    in the gutter at all times.
    
    JaKe
    
17.3572oh oh Don't ask JaKe!! 8^)CTHQ3::LEARYBeano:PreventGasBeforeItStartsThu Mar 05 1992 17:231
    
17.3573Undoubtably will be read by millions and millions! ;^)7389::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Fri Mar 06 1992 13:2921
    In the true spirit of the wrong note in the wrong topic
    (manly to keep MtM feling needed)  :^)
    
    Great editorial article in the soft porn issue on how long it takes to
    end college bball games because of the number of fouls.  Natcherally,
    they did say the B-E is the worste offender and the writer gave a few
    cites of how long it took to play (?) the lasted 3-4 minutes of the
    game.
    
    Don't remember the exact numbers but it was something like 18 - 20
    minutes on average.  The guy, helping bachelors who caint tell time
    said something like "If it's a big East game with 2:00 to go, you can
    cook five 3 minute eggs HOWEVER, if Dean Smith is coaching you can eat
    them too!"
    
    rollward bigtime!!!!
    
    I remain,
    demented and twisted,
    Kev
    
17.3574coachingDEMING::MCKAYFri Mar 06 1992 14:5418
    Cap, I agree with John (did I really say that 8*) ) since the coach
    seems to be glorified when a team wins they should shoulder the
    burden when they lose.   
    
    My personal feeling in the UCONN case is that a few key players 
    have not been playing well.  I haven't seen all of their losses but
    enough to think that Calhoun isn't poorly coaching the team.  Poor 
    defense and terrible shooting from the field have been the downfall
    during the losing streak.  The coach can't put the ball in the basket
    for them.  Has Calhoun shouldered the blame? absolutely. 
    
    As for UNC, I only watched one game during their losing streak and
    that was the FSU game.  Lack of defense? yes. Uncanny shooting by FSU?
    yes. Best offensive game this year by FSU? yes  So who do you blame?
    Dean.  I'm not a Dean fan but it's not his fault.  Did he take the
    blame? I don't know but he should have.
    
    Jimbo 
17.3575STRATA::CAPPELFri Mar 06 1992 15:528
    
    Jim,
    
    I agree one loss is not usually the coach's fault(but he shares in the
    blame).  However when a team plays poorly over a long stretch of time
    (for the last month Carolina has played poorly even in their wins) than
    the coach must shoulder all the blame, especially when the team is
    mega-talented.
17.3576It won't happen, cause you're a Thypocrite (tm).RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Mar 06 1992 16:467
    Feel free to ramble on about all of Dean's outrageous winning
    percentages over the last 30+ years Cap.  After all, if you're gonna
    blame him for the L's you certainly owe it to yourself to blame him for
    the W's.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3577It won't happen, cause you're a Thypocrite(TM).STRATA::CAPPELFri Mar 06 1992 17:1711
    Feel free to ramble on about Dean's outrageous losing tendencies in
    mega big games over the last 30+ years Chris.  AFter all, if you're
    gonna praise him for his W's you certainly owe it to yourself to blame
    him for not winning the games he should have.
    
    - ANC Cap

    P.S So do you agree that all the coaches like Tarkanian who have a 
    higher winning % than Deano are greater coaches because that's the only 
    leg you have to stand on?  
    
17.3578Cap, you need help. (Don't worry, BobHunt'll be back soon.)RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Mar 06 1992 17:4019
    re: .-1
    
    Already did criticize Dean.  Also pointed out how he blames himself
    after virtually every loss.
    
    
    re: Tark > Dean
    
    Except for the fact that Jerry Tarkanian is a sleazebag of the first
    degree, looking bad even before being compared to a man everybody
    concedes is a pinnacle of integrity (Dean Smith), Tarks level of 
    competition falls many magnitudes below Carolina's.  Just playing in the 
    ACC (vs. The Big West) alone assures that, but our non-conference 
    schedule is traditionally one of the toughest in the USA.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3579ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYYou are incapable of shameFri Mar 06 1992 18:4412
    Got to agree with ACChris on this.  Lately Tark has been getting a
    lot a press (and why not, his stars in hot tubs with convicted game
    fixers, his stars driving $70,000 Mercedes, his teams practicing 
    before the start date, Tark's threat to sue cuz the university broke
    it's agreement to cover up problems in the hoops programin exchange
    for his resignation) and they're always talking about his won/lost
    record.
    
    Hey, had Bob Knight spent the last 17 years in that conference Lord
    only knows what his numbers would be!  I mean, Utah State?  Pacific?
    
    MrT
17.3580STRATA::CAPPELFri Mar 06 1992 18:4934
    >    -< Cap, you need help. (Don't worry, BobHunt'll be back soon.) >-
    
    Don't need any help as you've conceded that Dean's coaching is
    responsible for Carolina's putrid play over the last month.
    Plus have on many occasions made you look foolish while catching
    you with your foot in your mouth while you made false and outlandish
    statements in your support of Dean.
    
    Also I have a strong suspicions that you are extremely disappointed
    in Dean's coaching over the last few years and that you agree with my
    recent assessments of their lack of coaching and poor play as you 
    certainly didn't dare debate me over my points.
    
    >Except for the fact that Jerry Tarkanian is a sleazebag of the first
    >degree, looking bad even before being compared to a man everybody
    >concedes is a pinnacle of integrity (Dean Smith), Tarks level of 
    >competition falls many magnitudes below Carolina's.  Just playing in the 
    >ACC (vs. The Big West) alone assures that, but our non-conference 
    >schedule is traditionally one of the toughest in the USA.
    
    Didn't say anything about Tark as a person only a coach(but I knew
    you'd be so insecure with the comparison that you would bring it up).
    Let';s remember that it was only recently that CArolina began to play
    a tough non-conference schedule and they certainly did not this year.
    Dean used to load up on 7 - 12 cupcakes a year and he still does 5 -8 
    a year now.  It makes quite a difference to your winning % when you 
    can add 7 - 12 automatic wins a year(and this doesn't count the very
    weak ACC teams).
    
    Plus Dean always had alot more talent than the Tark, alot more.....
    
    Cap
    
       
17.3581STRATA::CAPPELFri Mar 06 1992 18:5710
    Not talking about Tark the person just Tark the basketball coach.
    
    Anway Chris believes that Dean Smith should be judged on his winning
    % not on any of the valid criticisms that we've brought up(this is what
    he is implying) thus he should admit that there are coaches out
    there that are greater than Dean Smith based on their record.
    
    As much as I despise Tarkanian, he's a very talented basketball coach
    and Chris should admit that he's a better basketball coach than 
    Dean Smith.
17.3582MrT & me cozy up on certain issues. (Snuggle, snuggle)RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Mar 06 1992 19:1310
    re: Tark
    
    Yea Tom, did ya notice that Jerr is making noises that he wants to run
    for the Board of Regents in Nevada?  Sayin' it with a straight face,
    too!  
    
    Haw haw haw!!  What a jerk.  100%, undeniable idiot.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3583FDCV06::KINGLebanon NH, the pits of the world!!!Sat Mar 07 1992 00:046
    Hey Chris.. How mant NCAA has Tark won?
    
    How many has Snuffy won?
    
    
    enought said... REK
17.3584ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYYou are incapable of shameSat Mar 07 1992 16:319
    Yeah, REK.  But the average annual income on Tak's Title squad
    was probably right at $100K while SNuffer's one paltry Title Team
    was somewhere right around $0.00.  That makes a difference.
    
    I mean, everybody bellowing about how heroic it was for Larry and
    gang to stay for another year at UNLV, as if they weren't raking 
    in the dough there!
    
    MrT
17.3585ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Sun Mar 08 1992 19:438
    Oh boy a weekend that both MrT and ACC Chirs wouldn't like. NC finally
    lost a game they should ahve lost - to Duke at Duke 89-77.
    Unfortunately because of the warped priorities of the Boston TV
    stations neither this weeks NC-Duke game nor last weeks Duke-UCLA game
    were show locally. Boston/NE parochialism strikes again!
    
    The Crazy Met
    
17.3586RAVEN1::B_ADAMSThe Good,The Bad,The Richmond!Sun Mar 08 1992 20:098
    
    	U.N.C lead most of the game..but faded under the crunch of some
    good dee...
    
    	Meanwhile back at the Pack den...Goo gooo went out in
    style...hitting 27 points to the lead the pack over the Deacons.
    
    .
17.3587Dean needs to play fewer players to win TournamentAUNTB::ROSSSchwingggg!Sun Mar 08 1992 22:4013
    Another technical called on Dean for whining.... {Coach K got one
    also very early in the game. The refs were terrible both ways}
    
    Hubert Davis must be moving up in the first round in the NBA draft.
    He fired in another 30+ points including a spectacular one handed catch
    and shot while in midair falling out of bounds.   The question I have
    is whether he is any better than Rodney Monroe of NC State last year
    who was a similar player.  Rodney has not brought his scoring to the
    NBA {Hawks, I think} yet.   Hubert might be a better pure shooter and
    a little bit stronger.  
    
    The Blue Devils have too many weapons.  Thomas Hill would be a
    household name if he played anywhere else.    
17.3588riding itHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Mar 09 1992 12:5814
The turning point of the Duke-No Carolina game had to be Dean's
insistence on having Montross cover Laettner, who willingly played bombs
away. Montross was in a no win situation: if he plays tight Laettner goes
around him; if he backs off, it's set shot time. 

But the play of the game may have been Grant Hill riding Montross after a
dunk. Grant goees up against Montross, dunks it and as he semi-hung on the
rim he saddled up Montross and tried to take him for a ride. Montross, in
one of his better defensive moves, tossed Hill to the ground. 

How 'bout that Hubie Davis. Another 30+ point performance in a loss! What
has the System come to?

TTom
17.3589T quiet + Chris quiet = Nirvana5734::BROOKSMoney don't matter 2 night ...Mon Mar 09 1992 15:036
    Gotta luv that Mid-Air facial that Grant Hill applied to Montross.
    
    I admit the dunk and follow-through made this thigh shudder !
    
    Of course T caint gloat in full effect since IU got beech-slapped my
    Michigan - haa ....
17.3590... a lot like rugby ...34223::HUNTStop! Or Stallone Will Act Again ...Mon Mar 09 1992 15:50138
 Another turning point in yesterday's deliciously excellent loss was
 Snuff's call for a box-and-one junk D with about 5 minutes left.   Nice
 try, Dean, but who the hell do you single out for the "one" ???   K put
 him outta his misery quickly and painlessly.   Jimmie V was salivating in
 the broadcast booth just dreaming about having Duke's firepower against a
 box-and-one.
 
 Great game on Saturday as the Wahoos beat the Twerps by 2 on a Junior
 Burrough tip-in with 1.9 seconds left.   Spoiled Walt Williams' Senior Day
 and doomed the Terps to the extra Thursday night game this coming week.  
 Would very much like to believe that the Hoos have gotten themselves
 squarely back on the Big Dance Bubble.   
 
 They finished with a 3-game winning streak and wind up the conference wars
 as the No. 5 seed with an all-even 8-8 record.   Since the Big Dance went
 fully open in 1980, no ACC team with a .500 or better record has been left
 home.   Most people have Wake as a lock and they have a 7-9 record and the
 No. 6 seed in the Tournament.  The Hoos have wins over Fla State, North
 Carolina, Georgetown, Wake Forest and Notre Dame so I sure would like to
 think they'll go.   We'll see ... A first-round win over No. 4 Ga Tech
 would just about seal it, I believe.
 
 Okay, now get ready for some maximum thighshuddery (tm) ... Sunday,
 8-Mar-1992, is now permanently inscribed in the HUNTcluster archives as an
 Official Watershed Date.    Yesterday, MicroHUNTs I & II both attended
 their very first official live-and-in-person University Of Virginia
 Cavaliers basketball game.
 
 The ACC Women's Basketball Tournament is being played this year for the
 first time in my new hometown of Rock Hill SC on the grounds of Winthrop
 College, a Big South school.   The Lady Cavaliers are ranked No. 1 in the
 entire country and came into the Tournament with a 26-1 record and the
 ACC's regular season title and top seed in the tilt.   They feature the
 country's best player in Dawn Staley and the 6'-5" Burge twins, Heather
 and Hiedi, up front.
 
 We arrived at the Winthrop Coliseum (seats 6,100) just in time to see 7th
 seed Ga Tech pull off their second stunning upset in a row with a
 buzzer-beater over 3 seed Clemson.  On Saturday, they had buzzer-beat No 2
 seed (and No. 4 in the nation) Maryland.
 
 As soon as we walked into the arena, their eyes went wide as saucers.  
 They had seen hoops on the tube but this was sensory overload to the max. 
 The colors, the bands, the cheerleaders, the *NOISE*, ... they were in
 shock.   I calmly sat them down and kept a careful watch on them.  
 Amazing watching them soak all this stimuli in ... Lotsa questions and
 just total focus on what was going on.
 
 Then the Lady Hoos came out and MacroHUNT went wild and so did his two
 young Hoo boosters ... cheering "GO WA-HOOS !!!" and clapping as fast as
 they could.   Wanted to know all the names of the players and picked out
 their individual favorites right away ...
 
 Then the bad guys came out on the court ... You got it ... The Lady Tar
 Heels from North Carolina, the No. 4 seed and ranked No. 24 nationally.  
 Was someone scripting this thing in Hollywood or what ???    We rained a
 chorus of "Boos!" down on them and I started a "Go To Hell, Carolina, Go
 To Hell !!!" cheer (except I switched "heck" for "hell", don'tcha know).
 Fact is we cleared out a Tar Heel family in front of us ... Guess they
 couldn't handle the pressure !!!
 
 We were sitting sorta behind the Carolina band and everytime they played
 their "Go Tar Heels !!!" cheer, the three of us had our hands firmply
 placed on our throats and answered back with a spirited "Cough, Cough,
 Cough" in return.
 
 So then the game started and the Lady Hoos whipped off a quick 7-0 lead. 
 Dad was pumped and the Micros were rockin'.  Pour It On, Hoos, Pour It On
 ... we cheered.   The Heels came back a bit ... they have a freshman
 NUKEWIDEBODYSTUDETTE (tm), Charlotte Smith (niece of David Thompson) who
 was getting inside for some scores.
 
 Then Heel senior Tonya Sampson got called for a foul and did her best
 Snuff whine and got T'eed up for it.   Oh my, Oh My, OH MY !!!  It was
 time for the HUNTcluster's famous "T" Cheer ... T Her Up, Ref, T Her UP!!!
 Tammi Reiss hit all four free throws and the Hoos took the ball and
 sprinted off to a 32-17 lead.
 
 The Lady Heels came back though and scored the lasted 10 points of the
 half to close with five.   They also scored two quick buckets after
 intermission and closed it to 1.   Time for a little worry in the cheering
 section but all was not lost.   The Lady Heels actually closed to one on
 three separate occasions but the Hoos bit back each time.   Eventually
 Charlotte Smith fouled out trying to stop the Burge twins and Carolina
 folded its tent shortly thereafter with the final a runaway 74-55 Hoos
 romp.   Tonya "Rick Fox" Sampson had a miserable night going 0-for-7 from
 treyland.
 
 With about a minute to go, it was time to see if we had any good solid
 nibbles on this tasty piece of bait.   The worm had been wiggling for
 about two hours now and it was time to reel in a coupla choice catches. 
 
 MicroHUNT I turned to me and asked "Daddy ???"
 
 "Yes ???", I said as I could see the worm dancing.
 
 "Daddy, could we ... do you think we could ..."
 
 {Yep, definitely got some nibbles on this hook.  Might wanna try and set
 the hook firmly now.}
 
 "Daddy, is there another game after this one ???"
 
 {Definitely ... a firm bite.  Time to yank and set it.}
 
 "Not tonight, sweetie, but tomorrow the wonderful, fantabulous,
 magnificent, star-studded Lady Hoos will play the Yellow Jackets for the
 Whole Enchilada."
 
 {Time to sink that hook in deep ...}
 
 "Why, do *YOU* want to come back tomorrow and see them again ???"
 
 "Oh, *YES* !!!"
 
 BINGO !!!   Start reelin' her in, boys.  Another satisfied customer.  And
 to top it all off, she asked if she could wear my Virginia cap again. 
 Sniff, sniff, it CAIN'T get any better than this.
 
 But it did !!!  On our way out to the car, through the arena concourse,
 the two MicroHUNTs, brand new hooked Hoos fans, weaved their way
 through the streaming crowd with MacroHUNT close behind.   And they were
 chanting a new cheer ... one they'd heard at the end of the game from the
 Wahoo seating section.   It went something like this ...
 
        WE'RE NUMBER 1 !!!  WE'RE NUMBER 1 !!!  WE'RE NUMBER 1 !!!
 
 With little index fingers pointed skyward and little lungs bursting, they
 marched straight through numerous dejected clumps of Tar Heel fans.   Oh,
 Joy !!!  Oh, Rapture !!!   Right on out into the parking lot, past some
 more celebrating Wahoo fans and into the car and home.   Pumped and ready
 for a CHAMPEENSHIP tonight.
 
 I couldn't have scripted this any better than the way it actually went
 down.  If I die today, they'll have to rip the smile from my face with a
 crowbar.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3591made me smile to reading it...6984::CHILDSFour Tops &gt;&gt; TemptationsMon Mar 09 1992 15:594
 to quote Mark: "good note as usual, Bob."

 
17.359256719::LEARYBeano:PreventGasBeforeItStartsMon Mar 09 1992 16:097
    Great note Bob!
    Go 'Hoos tonight. Hope the young'uns brang yer more luck.
    
    MikeL
    BTW, ah think Tammi Reiss is une babe(ears and all)
    
    
17.359315558::SZABOCassandra is such a babe!Mon Mar 09 1992 16:168
    Haven't seen the Lady Hoos at all this season, but I do fondly recall
    shuddering at the thought of a twin sandwich...
    
    Here's to a Lady Hoos champeenship this year, after last year's
    disappointment...
    
    Hawk
    
17.359419226::waySon House RULES!Mon Mar 09 1992 16:2312
Damn, where's that roll of Bounty!


Bob, what a SUPERB story.  I could actually see their cherubic little
faces, eyes wide with wonder, as they asked to see another game!



sigh,
'Saw

PS  MacroHUNT had me tearward!
17.359533864::B_ADAMSAtlanta is Alive!Mon Mar 09 1992 16:2313
    
    	Pairings for the Tournament...
    
    	Thursday...Clemson vs Maryland 
    	Friday.....Thursday winner vs Duke
    		   Tech vs UVa
    ------------------------------------------------------
    		   Wake vs U.N.C.
    	   	   State vs Fla State
    
    	Should be some good games....
    
    B.A.
17.3596possible tickets33945::HAASMental ModelMon Mar 09 1992 16:2813
Those interested in tickets should

	a. Hope for a Clemson loss to Maryland
	b. Be at the Coliseum immediately after the game.

Clemson will bring a pretty good crowd and most of them will go home
after the loss. In either case, there are good chances for tickets since
half of the Thursday night fans might go home.

Now, if we can get a quick exit from No Carolina, tickets will be real
easy to get...

TTom
17.3597Cain Duke be beat? Yes, but it'll take a mighty effort.28964::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Mar 09 1992 19:1714
    Possible is right, TTom.  Lasted year I saw a whole lot more ticket
    *buyers* than sellers, dontcha know.  
    
    I thought the play of the game in yesterdays Duke > UNC affair was
    Hubert's *unbelievable* one-handed throw-in of a terrible George Lynch
    pass.  WOW!!
    
    Congrats to Duke.  They're loaded, to be sure.  Thought we played one
    of our best games of the year just to stay close, but when Laettner
    took Montross outside, wail, turn out the lights cause the fat lady is
    into the 2nd verse.  No answer for that matchup.  None, whatsoever.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3598More ...34578::HUNTThree little birds sit by my doorstep ...Mon Mar 09 1992 19:3321
17.3599Lynch has slumped badly on 'O', but continues to rebound.28964::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Mar 09 1992 19:3510
    Lynch has developed the unfortunate habit of throwing up absolute
    bricks from the outside.  Man has he been clanging this winter.  Got so
    bad against the Twerps that Gary Williams elected to essentially not
    cover him from the outside.  George started clanging 5-footers at that
    point.
    
    Kid needs to put more arc on his outside shot, IMO.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3600All-ACC?33945::HAASMental ModelMon Mar 09 1992 19:4520
The Poop Sheet's All ACC:

1st team:
	Grant Hill, Duke - player of the year.
	Christian Laettner, Duke
	Bobby Hurley, Duke
	Tom Gugliotta, NC State
	Walt Williams

2nd team:
	Kevin Thompson, NC State - most improved POY
	Bryant Stith, Va
	Douglas Edwards, Fla St
	Rodney Rogers, Wake
	Hubie Davis, No Carolina

Rookie o' the year:	James Forrest, Ga Tech
Coach o' the year:	Pat Kennedy, Fla St

TTom
17.3601Lynch shot just fine yesterday ...34578::HUNTThree little birds sit by my doorstep ...Mon Mar 09 1992 19:4520
17.3602More ...34578::HUNTThree little birds sit by my doorstep ...Mon Mar 09 1992 19:5639
17.3603Gugliotta? No way. (Too streaky ...)28964::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Mar 09 1992 20:015
    Sorry, but I gotta put Hubert Davis on the first team.  He's literally
    carried Carolina offensively this year.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.360433864::B_ADAMSAtlanta is Alive!Mon Mar 09 1992 20:267
    
    	No Frosh off the Clemson team????  They got some real good ones
    coming up!
    
    	As for the POY...Probably Christian...
    
    B.A.
17.3605Hurley = Elway6984::CHILDSFour Tops &gt;&gt; TemptationsMon Mar 09 1992 22:215
 I agree with you Bob and Chris I even agree with you...Throw Gogs and
 Hurley down a notch....in fact throw Hurley out completely....

 mike
17.3606All-ACC Teams34223::HUNTStop! Or Stallone Will Act Again ...Tue Mar 10 1992 03:3027
 All-ACC Team is official ...
 
 	Christian Laettner	Duke
 	Bryant Stith		Virginia
 	Tom Gugliotta		NC State
 	Rodney Rogers 		Wake Forest
 	Walt Williams		Maryland
 
 Second Team ...
 
 	Grant Hill		Duke
 	Bobby Hurley		Duke
 	Sam Cassell		Florida State
 	Doug Edwards		Florida State
 	Hubert Davis		North Carolina
 
 Third Team ...
 
 	Malcolm Mackey		Georgia Tech
 	Jon Barry		Georgia Tech
 	Kevin Thompson		NC State
 	Thomas Hill		Duke
 	???
 
 I cain't recall the lasted member of the 3rd team.   Was not a Tar Heel.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3607CHAMPEENS !!! ... And we were there !!!34223::HUNTVirginia -- 1992 ACC Women's Hoops ChampsTue Mar 10 1992 03:5550
 Tis now official ... The 1992 ACC Women's Basketball Champeens are the
 Lady Cavaliers from the University Of Virginia in a nail-biting 70-69 win
 over the gutty and hugely overachieving Lady Yellow Jackets from Georgia
 Tech.
 
 Georgia Tech, the 7th seed and a Cinderella of now epic stature, fought
 the top-ranked Lady Hoos all the way to the final buzzer.  They had
 already beaten the Nos. 2 and 3 seeds, nationally ranked Maryland and
 Clemson, on buzzer beaters and had the Hoos on some serious ropes.
 
 The Jackets led by 11 points with about 10 minutes to go and things looked
 real bleak for Hoos fans ... including two little MicroHUNTs decked out in
 their bestest Orange and Blue.   This two-day baptism of hoops fire did
 wonders for MicroHUNT I's fledgling arithmetic skills ... She kept a
 careful eye on the scoreboard and knew exactly how many points separated
 the two teams at any given moment.  She was as bummed as her Dad was when
 she calculated the 11-point hole the Hoos had dug for themselves.
 
 But we didn't wilt under pressure ... We kept up the cheers and we kept
 urging our beloved Lady Hoos on to victory.  Dawn Staley was liquid fire. 
 24 points and a mega trey to pull the Hoos to a late tie.   Finally the
 Jackets had one lasted try but their third straight attempt at a
 buzzer-beating and giantess-killing shot clanged and it was all over but
 the hugs, high-fives and "We're No. 1 !!!" cheers from a certain cheering
 section.
 
 This was a relief win, pure and simple.  The Lady Hoos are showing some
 late-season weaknesses and they could get bounced outta the Big Dance if
 they don't rev their No. 1 game back up.   But I cain't say enough good
 things about the Lady Jackets ... An incredible effort.  Even in defeat,
 this will go down as their Tournament.  Clutch shots, pressure D, stayed
 outta foul trouble, protected the ball ... They did it all except score 1
 more point.   They oughta go Dancing but their overall record might hurt
 them.
 
 These past 27 hours have been unbelievably fulfilling for me personally. 
 As you all know, I've bled Orange and Blue for going on 17 years now.   To
 pass the torch sucessfully like this has got to be one of the most
 satisfying things a father can ever do.
 
 Although there is still some work left to be done ... On the way home,
 MicroHUNT II announced in no uncertain terms that she will only attend
 future Wahoo games when they win.   I'll have to figure out a way to break
 this little item in gently.
 
 The next worm on the hook is to buy that first roundball and hoop. 
 MicroHUNT I's 7th birthday is coming up middle of nexted month ... Anybody
 got any ideas for a gift ???   It truly doesn't get much better than this.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.360839527::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Tue Mar 10 1992 11:3117
    How about a street hockey goal, stick and puck?  Cain't forget your
    hockey roots.
    
    Bob, those are great stories and it's a painful reminder of the sorts
    of things I've missed out on by never getting married and having kids. 
    I'm going to have to do the same thing with my cousin's 2 girls
    (they're 6 and 4, and it's about time I started the anti-Boston College
    indoctrination.  Then again my cousin will do a good job of that since
    she's a nurse at St Elizabeth's Hospital near the campus where all the
    drunk BC and BU kids come to get patched up.  She has as few good
    things to say about BC as I do), my sister's first baby who is due to
    arrive in May and my next-to-youngest brother's first child who is due
    in August.
    
    At least the Hoos can win *something*.
    
    John
17.3609More cute stories...NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Mar 10 1992 12:0424
    
    Great stuff, Bob.  It's a terrible cross to bear, but I've gotten my
    daughters into the Red Sox in the same way.  Sometimes I feel that the
    number one reason they want to go to the games with me (and their
    grandfather) is the hot dogs and popcorn, though, but I guess that's
    not too bad a reason, either.  I know my oldest (also 7 in a couple
    months) is really becoming interested in the game, collecting baseball 
    cards and memorizing names and teams and the like.
    
    There's hope for my son, too.  The kids have watched that Simpsons'
    softball episode over and over again till they've gotten it memorized,
    and the other night they popped it in and it had just gotten started
    when my son (just two years old and still not saying a whole lot) pipes
    up with:
    
    
    Daaaa-rylllll!  Daaaa-ryllll!
    
    I swear to god I had nothing to do with it (but was damn proud just the
    same...)!
    
    glenn
    
        
17.3610RUGBY1::waySon House RULES!Tue Mar 10 1992 12:5910
Glenn,

I'll be glad to indoctrinate your little prop into the wonderful enrichment
of rugby when he gets old enough.....8^)


Geez, you guys just wait till I have kids!


8^)
17.3611Lynch, The Missing Third-TeamerSCNDRL::HUNTThree little birds sit by my doorstep ...Tue Mar 10 1992 14:3710
17.3612I hold no grudge.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportTue Mar 10 1992 15:156
    No problem Bob.  We're all used to you being wrong, so it's no biggee.
    
    ;^)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3613Teach 'em right !EARRTH::BROOKSMoney don't matter 2 night ...Tue Mar 10 1992 15:2214
    Bob ...
    
    
    May your daughters become Lady Legends ....
    
    
    In Tar Heel Blue !!!!!!
    
    (Then you'll be a ('The) System' Analyst ! Haa !)
    
    
    :-)
    
    Doc
17.3614Steel waitin' ...SHALOT::HUNTVirginia -- 1992 ACC Women's Hoops ChampsTue Mar 10 1992 15:314
 Hey, Soup, where's my [wo]mainly congratulatory mail message for the Lady
 Hoos' 74-55 stompfest over the Rick Fox Wannabes from Chapel Hill ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3615Oh well...RAVEN1::B_ADAMSAtlanta is Alive!Tue Mar 10 1992 16:267
    	I can't believe that there are no Tar heels on the *First Team*!!!

    	The voting committee must have just gotten through with exams or
    something...:*)

    B.A.
17.3616Lady Heels may be team of future in the ACC ...RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportTue Mar 10 1992 17:226
    I'm pleased with the Lady Tar Heels season.  Women's hoops at UNC ain't
    been nothin' to crow about recently, and this years group had quite a
    nice season.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3617Lady Heels on the rise, no doubt.SHALOT::HUNTVirginia -- 1992 ACC Women's Hoops ChampsTue Mar 10 1992 17:4918
 The Lady Tar Heels are indeed a rising ACC power.  They stayed with the
 Lady Hoos right up until Charlotte Smith, their freshman scorer and the
 only ACC player who can dunk, fouled out late in the game.
 
 But Tonya Sampson had a horrible game ... she even looks a little bit like
 Rick Fox.   And the Lady Heels also have an Eric Montross counterpart ...
 6'-7" Gwendolyn Gillingham, extremely white and extremely slow but she was
 the tallest player out there.
 
 They're a scrappy bunch, too.   Two of the Lady Heels went to Piedmont
 Medical Center after the game for some stitches.   One was the backup PG
 who tried to take a charge but was a step too late, got called for the
 block, and suffered a bloody little gash on her nose.
 
 ACC Women's Hoops is easily the best conference in the land.  Four teams
 in the Top 25 and Ga Tech ought to be there now.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3618Dean has spokenHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Mar 11 1992 16:3017
Mini-article in USA Today about Dean. Some quotes:

"We're not a bad team."

A rather strange statment, after all the recruiting success. Is this a
new entry into the Escuse Bible, so intergral to the System?

"We've had to play five of our last seven on the road."

We've heard this before. Of course, no one else had to play on the road.
And don't forget the loss at home to NC State...

"We've been playing teams that played well"

Top 10 Excuse, no doubt.

TTom
17.3619B-brutal, TTom, b-brutalANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Mar 11 1992 18:281
    
17.3620ackANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Mar 11 1992 18:308
    re .3517
    
    I'm sick and tarred a all this weepy sandbagging by Notre Dame fans.
    LaPhonso is a buckstud future NBA star.  They got the big men.  They
    got the quick men.  They got plenty to deal with.  They have most
    everything... except consistency.
    
    MrT
17.3621'91-92 ND might be most inconsistent team *ever*.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Mar 11 1992 18:4018
    Read that article, TTom.  One point worth mentioning when talking about
    recruiting success is that the media tends to focus on the
    team(s) that had "The Best" class each year.  The two (2) components
    that go into being "The Best" are obviously 1) Quantity of Incoming
    Players, and 2) Quality of Incoming Players.
    
    The problem here is that it matters not whether you have one giant
    class that gets ranked as one of the best or simply bring in one or 2
    top-flight players year-in, year-out.  In fact, the later is the
    preferrable alternative, cause then you don't get caught in situations
    where you only have one (1) senior, like this years Carolina team.
    
    I bring this up not as_a excuse, but merely to point out that UNC's
    talent level is nowhere near as high as some folks would have you
    believe.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3622So what will the excuse be in two years-- too many seniors?NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 11 1992 18:4821
    > The problem here is that it matters not whether you have one giant
    > class that gets ranked as one of the best or simply bring in one or 2
    > top-flight players year-in, year-out.  In fact, the later is the
    > preferrable alternative, cause then you don't get caught in situations
    > where you only have one (1) senior, like this years Carolina team.
    
    > I bring this up not as_a excuse, but merely to point out that UNC's
    > talent level is nowhere near as high as some folks would have you
    > believe.
    
    You of all people have gotta lot of nerve making this distinction
    *now*, Chris, after taking an entire conference down for the quality of
    their recruiting class last year.  Now it turns out that Carolina
    screwed up bringing in all those studs at once, and the Big East way is
    preferable, for consistency's sake!
    
    Hey, are we ever gonna get a pre-NCAA prediction?
    
    glenn
    
17.3623Poop on DeanHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Mar 11 1992 18:5231
Chris,

Only now do we know that the soph class at No Carolina is overrated. From
the time they were recruited and signed through lasted year, it was
strictly rave reviews, Clifford Rozier notwithstanding. I agree to an
extent that Montross et.al. are not as good as their hype. The question
that begs is are they truly overrated or is it a function of the System.

Speaking of Dean, the Poop Sheet had a hilarious letter to the editor,
written by a self-proclaimed Tar Heel fan. The point of the letter ,
entitled "Dan Out of Touch", is that the author feels the game has passed
Dean by.

Some quotes:

	"The day of the big guy who is too slow to get out of his own
	shadow is over."

	"Dean, take a look down the road at Duke and some other schools
	and see if you aren't getting left behind."

	"If you bring in a good ball player, why not let him use his
	talents as other programs would do."

	"Come on Dean! Thirty-one years on the job and only one national
	title with all the God-give [sic] talent you've had?!"

Remember, the guy says he's a Tar Heel fan. Might've even gone to school
there...

TTom
17.3624freshmen at StateHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Mar 11 1992 18:569
I don't know if this has been covered yet but State showed the sign of
things to come in their victory over Wake Forest.

Gugliotta had run outta gas and the lineup was Kevin Thompson at Center
and 4 freshmen: Lekista McCuller, Mark Davis, Donnie Seale and Curtis
Marshall. With that lineup, the Pack went from down about 8 to up about
6. These freshmen were very underrated as an incoming class.

TTom
17.3625CTHQ3::LEARYBeano:PreventGasBeforeItStartsWed Mar 11 1992 18:566
    Sandbaggin??
    Right out of yo' mouth, T. CONSISTENCY is lacking. That's the truth.
    Ain't sandbaggin when you don't know which gameface the team's
    gonna show up with.  
    
    
17.3626Prediction? You'll have it before NCAA Tourney begins.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Mar 11 1992 19:337
    Read that letter to the editor, TTom.  The jist of it was the guy felt
    Dean wasn't recruiting too well of late.
    
    Who knows, maybe he's right?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3627rookiesHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Mar 11 1992 19:4812
The highest recruit this year was Donald Williams, who got virtually no
quality playing time. He looks to be another example of Dean
disassembling a players skills and attempting to rebuild them within the
System. 

With that, No Carolina has to rate near the bottom of the league this
year in terms of its freshmen. 

And speaking of freshmen, what happened to Cherokee Parks? Disappointing
Rookie O the Year (DROY).

TTom
17.3628Return favor due on FridayISLNDS::REEVEThu Mar 12 1992 11:259
    Bob H-
    
    Belated congrats on two most excellent pieces on the Lady Wahoos. I was
    quite surprised and pleased to see that the Lady Jackets had done so
    well. GTs women have never done much in athletics and it's nice to see
    them mega-overachieve. Thanks for the stories, the local rag (Glob)
    didn't even bother to list the scores.
    
    GT Chris								 
17.3629GO JR!RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Mar 12 1992 11:531
    
17.3630tickets will be availableHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Mar 12 1992 13:1031
Since it's about that time, here goes my fearless if not factless 
predictions on the ACC tourney. 

Duke wins and here's how it happens.

Clemson (9)
----------------- <Maryland>
    Thurs. 7 pm |---------------- <Duke>
-----------------  Fri. 2:30 pm |----------------
Maryland (8)    -----------------               |
                Duke (1)                        | <Duke>
                                   Sat. 1:30 pm |----------------
                Virginia (5)                    |               |
                ----------------- <Georgia Tech>|               |
                      Fri. noon |----------------               |
                -----------------                               |
                Georgia Tech (4)                                | <Duke>
                                                      Sun. 1 pm |--------
                Wake Forest (6)                                 |
                ----------------- <Wake Forest>                 |
                   Fri. 9:30 pm |----------------               |
                -----------------               |               |
                No Carolina (3)                 | <Wake Forest> |
                                      Sat. 4 pm |----------------
                NC State (7)                    |
                ----------------- <Florida St>  |
                      Fri. 7 pm |----------------
                -----------------
                Florida St (2)

TTom
17.3631I'm usually wrong, so I doubt either will be true.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Mar 12 1992 13:267
    I'll go out on a limb and predict:
    
    a) NC State will upset FSU
    b) Duke will not win the ACC Tournament
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3632And afterwards T pays up on the betSHALOT::HUNTVirginia -- 1992 ACC Women's Hoops ChampsThu Mar 12 1992 14:0150
17.3633Dreamin'. Nothin' more than, Dreamin ...RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Mar 12 1992 14:5928
Clemson (9)
----------------- <Maryland>
    Thurs. 7 pm |---------------- <Duke>
-----------------  Fri. 2:30 pm |----------------
Maryland (8)    -----------------               |
                Duke (1)                        | <Duke>
                                   Sat. 1:30 pm |----------------
                Virginia (5)                    |               |
                ----------------- <Virginia>    |               |
                      Fri. noon |----------------               |
                -----------------                               |
                Georgia Tech (4)                                | <NoCarolina>
                                                      Sun. 1 pm |--------
                Wake Forest (6)                                 |
                ----------------- <No Carolina>                 |
                   Fri. 9:30 pm |----------------               |
                -----------------               |               |
                No Carolina (3)                 | <No Carolina  |
                                      Sat. 4 pm |----------------
                NC State (7)                    |
                ----------------- <NC State>    |
                      Fri. 7 pm |----------------
                -----------------
                Florida St (2)
 
 
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3634oh why are they playing this stupid thing anyway?ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Mar 12 1992 15:301
    
17.3635big game: Wake-No CarolinaHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Mar 12 1992 15:3013
The tournament will be very important to Virginia and Wake Forest. Some
people already have them penciled in for the 5th and 6th representatives
to the Big NCAA Dance (BND). If both lose first round games, it may be
tough for both of them go get in.

No Carolina is certainly already invited but it wouldn't hurt them a bit
to win at least one game here. That's what makes the Wake game so
intriguing.

NC State, Maryland and Clemson would have to win the tournament to get to
the BND.

TTom
17.3636have to come preparedHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Mar 12 1992 15:359
Oh yeah, they play the tournament to determine the winner of the ACC
basketball championship and its accompanying automatic bid to the NCAAs.

Along the way there some good basketball and everyone makes some money.
Good times are had by all, except if you're a fan who likes to drink beer
cause they aint no beer at the ACC tourney, at least not when it's at the
Charlotte Coliseum.

TTom
17.3637Never get away with it in the NorthEast....SALES::THILLThu Mar 12 1992 15:459
>Good times are had by all, except if you're a fan who likes to drink beer
>cause they aint no beer at the ACC tourney, at least not when it's at the
>Charlotte Coliseum.

Is this true for all evnets at Charlotte, like Hornets games? Could this be 
becaue it's in the Bible Belt?

Tom
17.3638beer at the Hornets gamesHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Mar 12 1992 15:5012
Rest assured. They definitely serve beer at the Hornets games.

I don't know if its the Bible belt but the ACC has a rule against
anything to do with beer sales. Not at any of their events.

The owner of the Hornets bought a wee-laf football team for Raleigh and
contracted with NC State to use their stadium to the games. Evidently no
one checked this out and they were unable to sell beer at the games since
it belonged to State and off limits to beer. The team averaged only a
couple of thousand at the game, lost a bundle of money and folded.

TTom
17.3639PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollThu Mar 12 1992 16:009
17.3640I like beerHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Mar 12 1992 16:044
For you northeastern types, how about going to a St. John's game at
Madison Square Gardens. Can a main get hisself a beer there and then?

TTom
17.3641WLAF???SALES::THILLThu Mar 12 1992 16:1012
-2 So this means that the local "Tappa Kega Bru" frats at ACC universities use 
all that ice to chill down a frosty pitcher o milk to go with them thar cookies?
:-)

re WLAF: Are they still going on with this league? Haven't heard anything about
this, but then again, I haven't been looking. Geez, you'd think the owner would
have looked into these things before plunking down some serious money. Seems as
if a football team woud do well in the Carolinas, as they are always mentioning
Charlotte as a potential NFL city, and there's only the Hornets for pro sports 
competition

Tom  
17.3642RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOI'm a happy boy, hubbabubbabubbaThu Mar 12 1992 16:146
    I believe Mac is correct.  At the NCAA West Regionals lasted year  in
    the Kingdome, no alchohol was served because it was a college game. 
    Had to party before and after the game with Seething Hell and Running
    Rabble fans in the local bars ;-)
    
    JD
17.3643PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollThu Mar 12 1992 16:267
    TEAM (Techniques for Effective Alcohol Management), the same folks who
    brought you the ban on beer sales after the start of the fourth
    quarter, 7th inning, the Sports Celebs saying to know when to say when,
    etc. works very closely with colleges and the NCAA.  I know a bit
    about them because I worked with them to set up appropriate policies at
    the Austin Rugby Tournament a few years back to help us get a break on
    our liability insurance.
17.3644CTHQ3::LEARYBeano:PreventGasBeforeItStartsThu Mar 12 1992 16:2610
    I've only seen alcohol present at ND hockey games. I don't know
    what the rules were, but the ND alumini booster club had a private
    function room that served alcoholic drinks. No undergrads were
    admissable. Of course in them days we'd rather pop a few before
    or sneak in a few than pay the prices at the private "club".
    Never seen alcohol present at any other ND sports functions or at
    any other college's functions either.
    
    MikeL
    
17.3645NFL, maybeHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Mar 12 1992 16:263
Charlotte is one of the leading cities in its bid for the NFL.

TTom
17.3646ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Thu Mar 12 1992 16:468
    re: a few back
    
    There was an article in the NY Times yesterday about food served
    at Madison Square Garden. They server beer during
    the Big East tournament.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
17.3647until the end of the 3rd qtr.GENRAL::WADEShe knowed he had a MercuryThu Mar 12 1992 17:155
    
    	The CU Buffs sell beer at their football games.  I know dat for a 
    	fack(tm). :*)
    
    	Claybone
17.3648AKOCOA::KBURGESSThu Mar 12 1992 19:014
    
    They also sell beer for all sporting events at Syracuse!!!
    
    - Ken -
17.3649RAVEN1::B_ADAMSAtlanta is Alive!Thu Mar 12 1992 19:078
    
    	I prognosticate the following...
    
    	It will be the Dukies over the Seminoles for the title...
    
    	All other games are not recorded...:*)
    
    B.A.
17.3650Clemson vs Maryland RAVEN1::B_ADAMSAtlanta is Alive!Thu Mar 12 1992 23:338
    
    	How about's someone giving us a yell when the game is over tonight
    and let's us know's who won!
    
    later,
    
    B.A.
    
17.3651FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Fri Mar 13 1992 11:185
    Maryland wins by 6.  The silly foul shooting and time out "coaching"
    meant ESPN didn't pick up the really important game from the beginning. 
    Humph.
    
    John
17.3652SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesFri Mar 13 1992 11:213
       What'd it take them a half an hour to play the lasted 4 minutes? And
    some folks call that basketball!
                                    Denny
17.3653AXIS::ROBICHAUDFri Mar 13 1992 11:293
17.3654Eliminating the 1-and-1 sure has shortened games ... NOT!!RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Mar 13 1992 11:507
    Aw quit bellyachin'.  Ya got to see more of the guy I'd take right
    behind Shack - maybe even in front of him.  Walter "Wizard" Williams
    was born to play NBA ball, and the team(s) that pass over him in the
    draft will look back on that particular event with cold-blooded horror.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3655Walter, to youHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Mar 13 1992 12:3612
Hey Knorr, get off my bandwagon about Walt.

In any case, there was some interest at the end of the game: whether
Maryland would cover or not.

Meanwhile, Georgia Tech, Florida St and No Carolina (and obviously Duke)
are favored in today's game.

Sir Ninja: what happened to the UMassers at the end, letting W.Va.
finish strong?

TTom
17.3656Didja know Dean recruited WW? (True.)RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Mar 13 1992 12:381
    
17.3657thank goodnessHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Mar 13 1992 12:403
We can all be thankful that Walt declined the invitation.

TTom
17.3658Nice move, WaltSHALOT::HUNTVirginia -- 1992 ACC Women's Hoops ChampsFri Mar 13 1992 12:505
 Indeed, young Mr Williams obviously chose a school that was willing to
 design its offense around him rather than slam him into a square peg
 System.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3659Going to Maryland will cost Walt some money.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Mar 13 1992 13:025
    Yup, great move going to a program that ended up losing many more than
    they won, not to mention a year of no TV and several of probation.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3660thanks, WaltHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Mar 13 1992 13:0510
It was. He's now nationally known, played on a lot of all-star teams like
the Pan-am, is projected to be a lottery choice.

And the fact that Maryland was on probation and Walt stayed when he
coulda left and others did (cf. Brian Williams going to Arizona) shows
the value of his commitment.

No matter how you twist this one, Chris, your words ring hollow.

TTom
17.3661Remember: Almost *every* Carolina game is on TV. :^)RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Mar 13 1992 13:175
    My words may ring hollow to you, but I'll stand by my statement that
    going to Maryland cost Walt money.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3662give it upHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Mar 13 1992 13:595
Not to me, to the NBA.

Walt is listed as a bona fide lottery. He achieved what you say he lost.

TTom
17.3663RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOI'm a happy boy, hubbabubbabubbaFri Mar 13 1992 14:2920
    Soup -
    
    Now what  a second.  First you come in and sing about WIlliams -
    include saying you'd pick him #2 behind Shack - and maybe before Shack.
    They for some inane reason you say Dean recruited him - why I'd venture
    a guess that lots of teams recruited him - it would be hard for me to
    imagine that the Terps and the Tarhells were the only teams that showed
    interest in Mr. Williams.  Somewhere in America, there are coaches that
    can claim "We recruited Jordan..."   Don't mean a gosh darn thing.
    
    But then you say going to Maryland cost him money.  First you say you'd
    pick him in the top 2.  Then it cost him money.  He's a consensus
    lottery pick - yet it cost him money.    The pre-wash soak is over, we
    have acheived the spin cycle.
    
    The only thing that will cost him money is if he performs like crap at
    hte pre-draft all-star and coaches clinics - or if he picks a weiner of
    a_agent.
    
    JD
17.3664Busted again, Crock!NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Mar 13 1992 14:301
    
17.3665Walt in Carolina Blue. Ooo, it woulda been *sweet*!28964::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Mar 13 1992 16:2910
    No I ain't busted Waugamain.  I said *I'd* take him at #2.  I seriously
    doubt he'll go that high.  If he'd_a gone to UNC his fundamentals would
    be better, his shot selection better, and every man, woman, and child
    in the USA woulda heard of him, to say nothing of every owner, agent,
    coach, and scout.
    
    Humbly yours,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.366630311::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesFri Mar 13 1992 16:405
    You actually think NBA coaches, scouts and agents don't know who he is? What
    does it matter if every fan in America doesn't know who he is? Is some
    dry cleaner in Chicago going to draft him, or will it be a pro team?
    Give us a break here. You're Caught agin!
                                 Denny
17.366726340::ROBICHAUDNaturallyVibratingOsculatorFri Mar 13 1992 16:421
    	Come on Chris, you're busted.  Take you medicine like a main!
17.366810881::DEVLIN_JOI'm a happy boy, hubbabubbabubbaFri Mar 13 1992 16:569
    Chris -
    
    C'mon and admit it.  ALl the scouts, agents, coaches in the NBA know
    who Mr. Williams is.   And I'd guess some folks in Spain and Italy know
    who he is too.   He'll make the big bucks.   In fact, he'll probably
    make more because he was showcased at Maryland.  At Dean's Den of
    Delightful Defeats (Quad-D) he'd have been systemized....
    
    JD
17.366919226::waySon House RULES!Fri Mar 13 1992 17:157
"Caught" again... just like back in 1990, eh?

Yeah, just like in that little tome that's making the round, ACC Crisp
gets "Caught", only this time he cain't BLAM it on de DEBIL....


Where's MrT's wheelchair????
17.3670Walt woulda been happier in Chapel Hill. :^)28964::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Mar 13 1992 17:1714
    So despite the fact that Maryland's overall W/L record was dismal over
    the last 4 years, despite the fact that his poor mom couldn't watch him
    on TV for a whole year, despite the fact that they got hit with
    probation for several years and couldn't play postseason, despite the
    fact that Walt's had to play with a collection of rag-tag athletes over
    the last few years, ...
    
    despite it all, Walter Williams made a terrific decision to attend
    Maryland!  
    
    Ba.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3671Seperating Fact from Fiction28964::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Mar 13 1992 17:219
    re: The Trial
    
    Despite as unfair_a trial as imaginable, I was still found 'Not
    Guilty'.
    
    Hth,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.367230311::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesFri Mar 13 1992 17:265
       ...so you still haven't told us why you say all the pro coaches,
    scouts and agents don't know who he is. If this is true, there's no way
    he'll be drafted in the 1st round, right? How cain they draft someone
    they never heard of?
                                 Denny
17.3673ACChris's credibility is slipping away6181::CAPPELFri Mar 13 1992 17:3124
    First off the statement about Walt Williams not being known by the
    scouts and losing money by attending Maryland has got to be one of
    the most ridiculous statements in this file.  I'm surprised that 
    anyone with any basketball knowledge would make such a statement.
    
    Secondly, odds are had Williams gone to Carolina, he wouldn't have 
    played point guard in Dean's system, wouldn't have been able to 
    showcase his talents as he has at Maryland and most likely would not
    have improved his fundamentals as Chris claims.
    
    JR Reid and Kenny Smith are just too examples of players that had poor
    fundamentals coming out of Carolina who have only recently began to 
    play better as a result of good coaching at the NBA level.  Two lottery
    picks who were duds their first few years in the league(now they are
    slightly above average for their positions).
    
    Walt made the right decision and it will be proven when he becomes a
    millionaire after the draft.
    
    Cap
    
    P.S. If scouts new enough to draft Scottie Pippen in the top 10 and
    Dennis Rodman from small schools than they certainly know who Walt 
    Williams is....
17.3674Uh-oh, someone's gonna call me a weasel. Boo hoo hoo!15558::SZABOWhy did John have to die?Fri Mar 13 1992 17:468
    What's better, playing 18 minutes on an OK college team, or 38 minutes 
    on a not so OK college team?  And, does playing on a 1990s Dean Smith 
    team still carry the weight that it did, say, playing on an early 1980s 
    Dean Smith team?  In other words, simply being a Tarheel losing it's
    competitve edge and appeal?
    
    Hawk
    
17.367533864::B_ADAMSAtlanta is Alive!Fri Mar 13 1992 17:577
    
    	Yahoos are out of the tournament and probably the dance...
    
    Duke/Terps up next...
    
    B.A.
    
17.3676UVa stuck on 15 W's. Adios, NCAA's ... :^(28964::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Mar 13 1992 18:076
    re: .-1
    
    What was the final?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3677 34873::SHAUGHNESSYPinnochio,Nixon,Bakker,ChrisKnorrFri Mar 13 1992 18:481
     
17.367819226::waySon House RULES!Fri Mar 13 1992 18:497
I'll never forget those opening words "This isn't a hoax" and how
old Onan Dan drooled as his sweater as he prepared to dupe us all.

Nor will I forget how, for a few weak moments, I became a CRAVEN panderer....


'Saw
17.367919226::waySon House RULES!Fri Mar 13 1992 18:501
That should say "on his sweater".....
17.368030311::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesFri Mar 13 1992 18:513
       Yeah, me too, maybe some day Doug Ross will come clean and tell us
    what really happened!
                                  Denny
17.368133864::B_ADAMSAtlanta is Alive!Fri Mar 13 1992 18:526
    
    	Chris,  Don't remember the score but I think it was around 10+ for
    Tech....Stith couldn't buy a basket today...he only had around 12-14
    points.
    
    B.A.
17.3682My Ultimate Noting Achievement. (Woulda made Dean proud!)28964::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Mar 13 1992 19:005
    Heh heh!  Yea, that Craven Pandering stuff was so fine, so excellent,
    so *divine*.  Enjoyed every moment of it!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.368310881::DEVLIN_JOI'm a happy boy, hubbabubbabubbaFri Mar 13 1992 19:054
    
    And I was totally ripped off.  totally.
    
    JD
17.3684Freudian slip costed ya, JD. (Sorry, bub. Haw !!)28964::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Mar 13 1992 19:114
    Duke leads by 7 wif around 8 minutes to go ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.368510881::DEVLIN_JOI'm a happy boy, hubbabubbabubbaFri Mar 13 1992 19:133
    Hah, and you listened to MrT.  It was  fix, and you know it.
    
    JD
17.3686Thanks, MrT.28964::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportFri Mar 13 1992 19:258
    Since I've known MrT he's been right on many things, including:
    
    1. Paul Westhaid is a crook.
    2. Jerry Tarkanian is a crook.
    3. JD's Contest Entry was as phony as a three (3) dollar bill.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3687Help!!33864::B_ADAMSAtlanta is Alive!Fri Mar 13 1992 19:5411
    so...
    
    	Who won the Duke game?????
    
    	And will please somone keep me posted with games tonight since I
    will be here till 11:30 pm...
    
    Thanks,
    
    B.A.
    
17.3688Later Hoos34223::HUNTVirginia -- 1992 ACC Women's Hoops ChampsFri Mar 13 1992 21:4519
17.368933864::B_ADAMSAtlanta is Alive!Fri Mar 13 1992 21:525
    Bob,
    
    	Who won the Duke game...as if Duke didn't win, but by how much?
    
    B.A.
17.369024734::KINGLebanon NH, the pits of the world!!!Sat Mar 14 1992 00:413
    Duke won by 7.. 94-87...
    
    
17.3691Fla. St beats NC State by 177389::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Sat Mar 14 1992 02:021
    
17.369239527::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Sat Mar 14 1992 12:194
    And Da Heels hammer Wake Forest.  Carolina vs Florida State and Duke vs
    Georgia Tech today.
    
    John
17.369333864::B_ADAMSAtlanta is Alive!Sat Mar 14 1992 18:417
    
    	Duke was killing Tech when I left the house....any results yet?
    
    	Any updates on the Fla-N.C game would be most appreciated!
    
    B.A._who's_stuck_in_here_on_another_Saturday_:^(
    
17.369433864::B_ADAMSI'm too tough to tame!Sat Mar 14 1992 21:564
    
    	UNC pulled one out of their AS*!  Yet again. it's Duke vs Carolina.
    
    B.A.
17.369510881::DEVLIN_JOI'm a happy boy, hubbabubbabubbaSun Mar 15 1992 21:233
    Duke destroyed the Tar Hells by 20.  94-74, I believe.
    
    JD
17.3696PAY OFF TIMEANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPinnochio,Nixon,Bakker,ChrisKnorrMon Mar 16 1992 02:031
    
17.3697If it were me, I'd ignore this "W" ... :^|RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Mar 16 1992 11:314
    Be a main MrT and don't make BobHunt pay up on his stupid bet, 'kay?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3698ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPinnochio,Nixon,Bakker,ChrisKnorrMon Mar 16 1992 12:056
    Making good the account became all the more urgent yesterday
    when Phelps, Francesa and Packer were axed if they thought these
    geeky money-grubbing redundant spectacles should be played.  To
    a main they said no.
    
    MrT
17.3699BSS::JCOTANCHMon Mar 16 1992 12:2213
    Packer was ripping the conference tournaments during the BE final
    yesterday.  He even mentioned that some of the teams that are
    definitely in the NCAA's before their conference tourney actually
    *like* to get knocked out of their conf. tourney so they can get the
    extra rest.  I hadn't heard that, but if that's not a slap in the face
    to conference tourneys, I don't know what is.
    
    More often than not, the only thing they mean is how a team might get 
    seeded, but now I don't even know if that holds after seeing Syracuse 
    winning the BE tourney and still only coming up with a 6 seed.
    
    
    Joe            
17.3700Bah !!!SCNDRL::HUNTAtlantic Coast Conference Men's Basketball Tournament :== GeMon Mar 16 1992 13:2747
The media bubblehaids can rip the conference tournaments all they want.  
Fortunately, they aren't played for their benefit.  If Packer et al don't 
want to watch 'em, they can go sit in the hotel lobby and cruise the babe 
scene.   No biggie ...

Boy, that's one helluva generous No. 4 seed for Snuffy.  Loses 5 outta his 
lasted 6 conference games and then gets smoked by the Dookies and still 
gets a squeaky clean shot to the Sweet Sixteen.   Sheesh, take note, sports 
fans ... git yourself a "legend" in pinstripes and you won't have to sweat 
the Big Dance.    As the No. 20 team in the nation, Carolina shoulda been 
the final No. 5 seed ... and in the toughest region.

And, yes, I do feel that Virginia got royally shafted.   True, they have no 
one but themselves to blame for their 15-13 record but consider these few 
facts ...

	North Carolina --- 9-7 conference --- No. 4 seed
	Georgia Tech   --- 8-8 conference --- No. 7 seed
	Virginia       --- 8-8 conference --- NIT (At Villanova)
	Wake Forest    --- 7-9 conference --- No. 9 seed

Virginia has a 7-4 non-conference record with wins over Georgetown and 
Notre Dame (who stomped on Carolina).   They have tough road losses to 
Alabama and Stanford (who both made the NCAA's) and to Richmond and New 
Orleans, two other bubble teams.   They split with Wake and Carolina.  
They also split with Florida State who swept Carolina, Ga Tech *and* 
Wake.   Wake's win over Duke came at home with Grant Hill in street 
clothes	... Three days earlier, Virginia saw the same injured Duke team but 
it was in Cameron.   The Hoos swept NC State who swept Carolina *and* split 
with Wake.   They also swept Maryland who split with Carolina.

Carolina feasted on a cupcake non-conference schedule ... The Citadel, 
Towson State, Cornell, Central Florida, Purdue, Colorado, and 
Jacksonville.  Therein lies the difference.  Snuffy coasted to a No. 4 
seed and Jeff Jones laid too many hand grenades in his own path.   Will it 
surprise anyone if he takes the low road in nexted year's schedule ???  
Certainly not after this shafting ...

Six points and the Hoos are in the NCAA's.   Two Stith free throws against 
Florida State and two buckets against Clemson.   They'd be 10-6 and a No. 4 
seed somewhere.   Instead, they're on the road in the NIT first round.   
Elevator, elevator, we got the shaft ...

Bob Hunt

P.S.  Truly objective Tar Heel fans are on their knees right now saying 
penance for such an outrageously undeserved gift.  
17.3701RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOI'm a happy boy, hubbabubbabubbaMon Mar 16 1992 13:278
    
    Well Crock we were both wrong, in a way.  You claimed "NO way would
    more than FOUR ACC teams make the dance."  I scoffed and said I thought
    six.   It was five.  But I knew it  would be more than four.  
    
    Wrong again, Chris.
    
    JD
17.3702If CBS is against 'em why'd they televise BE Tourney nationally?RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportMon Mar 16 1992 13:3014
    I heard the bogus Francesa say he didn't think they should be played,
    but who is he, really?  Has he ever lived in ANY Atlantic Coast state,
    where the ACC Tournament is ingrained into our haids that the winner is
    the Champion?  What's it to him that the ACC choses this method of
    crowning its champ?  
    
    The players like the tournament.  The fans like the tournament.  And
    I'll tell you flat-out that there most definitely will be an ACC
    Tournament long past the days Francesa and Fudgepacker are laid to
    rest, and definitely long past the days when CBS maintains its
    stranglehold on the NCAA Tournament.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3703ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPinnochio,Nixon,Bakker,ChrisKnorrMon Mar 16 1992 13:329
    Excuse me, Hunt, but I don't see the agreed upon p_name.  Lemme guess,
    you're pulling a /Roachy-style scam, right?  Oh, I get it, your p_name
    actually reads "Atlantic Coast Men's Basketball Tournament Should Be
    Done Away With" but only there's only space for the first half a it.
    
    Sigh.  First I flip over a rock and find this file's Michael Milken.
    Please tell me that you are not our Ivan Boesky.
    
    MrT
17.3704Would I do that to you ???SCNDRL::HUNTAtlantic Coast Conference Men's Basketball Tournament :== GeMon Mar 16 1992 13:354
Not true.   Notes stores the entire p-name.  Extract the note and see it 
for yourself.

Bob Hunt
17.3705CSCOA1::ROLLINS_RMon Mar 16 1992 13:3827
	Virginia's loss in the ACC tournament was a result of the same
	problem they had in the regular season, poor shooting percentage.
	Virginia's 24.7% shooting form the field in their 68-56 loss to
	Tech was the third worst in ACC Tournament history.  Bryant Stith,
	Virginia's star player, shot 4-22 from the field (was he benched
	in the second half, BTW, after such a poor showing?), while Tech
	picked up 13 blocks.

	ACC's NCAA Tournament entries (Men)
	  East:		#1 Duke 28-2 vs #16 Campbell 19-11
	  Southeast:	#4 North Carolina 21-9 vs #13 Miami (Ohio) 23-7
	  Midwest:	#7 Georgia Tech 21-11 vs #10 Houston 25-5
	  West:		#3 Florida State 20-9 vs #14 Montana 27-3
			#9 Wake FOrest 17-11 vs #8 Louisville 18-10

	ACC's NIT Tournament entries (Men)
	  Virginia 15-13 at Villanova 14-14

	ACC's NCAA Tournament entries (Women)
	  East:		#1 Virginia 29-1, first round bye (next vs GWU/Vermont)
			#5 Clemson 20-9 vs #12 Tennessee-Chattanooga 18-11
			#7 North Carolina 21-8 vs #10 Old Dominion 20-10
	  Mideast:	#2 Maryland 23-5, first round bye (next vs PC/Toledo)

	ACC's NIT Tournament entries (Women)
	  Haven't seen tournament pairings, but have heard that Georgia Tech's
	    women's team is in the NIT.
17.3706Just so we all know ...SHALOT::HUNTVirginia -- 1992 ACC Women's Hoops ChampsMon Mar 16 1992 13:417
17.3707Made my morning!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 16 1992 13:4512
    Listening to BobHunt talk 'bout how his poor 15-13 Cavs failed to make
    the NCAA's in the same breath as he discusses how the 16th ranked Tar
    Heels (according to todays CNN/Coaches poll), finalist in ACC
    Tournament and the *only* team to beat Duke when they were at full
    strength, got a "break" by moving to what most consider the toughest
    region and play a first round game practically on the opponents home
    floor does, indeed, give me *THIGH SHUDDERING* pleasure!
    
    Haw!!11
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3708Wrong again, Soup.SCNDRL::HUNTAtlantic Coast Conference Men's Basketball Tournament :== GeMon Mar 16 1992 13:5723
17.3709Horrid showing against Tech may have been the clincher.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 16 1992 14:0815
    Hurley played practically the entire game against UNC and didn't appear
    to be hurting.  They taped him up tight and he played reasonably well.
    As to the "Foul-A-Thon mugging", I'm gonna write that off as 100%
    subjectivism comment from a fan wif an anti-Carolina attitude problem.
    
    As to Virginia, no I don't see the injustice.  15 wins just ain't gonna
    cut it, and I don't give a crap about their supposedly tough schedule. 
    (According to Sagarin's, it was tougher than Carolina's by the slimmest
    or margins ...)  It's not enough to just play good teams, ya gotta beat
    some of 'em.  Face it: The Cavs underachieved badly this year and are
    getting the fruits of their labor.  (i.e. N-I-T!  N-I-T!!)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.3710Have you no shame at all, Soup ???SHALOT::HUNTVirginia -- 1992 ACC Women's Hoops ChampsMon Mar 16 1992 14:2716
17.3711ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPinnochio,Nixon,Bakker,ChrisKnorrMon Mar 16 1992 14:5315
    You cain roll out all the jive-bull you want, Witch, but the simple
    fact is that you're a welsh, even by your own terms.  You said that
    the p_name was to be displayed, and it isn't being displayed.
    
    re: ACCrock
    
    Funny, but Billy Packer *does* live in ACCland, and he says that the
    redundancy has lost all its meaning and is nothing more than a empty
    money-grubbing exercise.  
    
    Oh, btw, all four of the men righteously bad-mouthing these redundancies
    have everything to do with them: They *are* played for nobody BUT the
    networks, and commentators directly extract personal income from them.
    
    MrT
17.3712T knows bets!SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesMon Mar 16 1992 15:005
       Just remember the old saying there MorT:
    "Fool me once, shame on you...
     Fool me twice..."
       Well, you git the picture!
                                      Denny
17.3713Network hypocrisy duly noted, MorT. RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 16 1992 15:0316
    I didn't hear Billy denounce the tourneys, I heard Frans_whatsis_name.
    Packer made the stupid comment that coaches might actually *want* to
    lose in their tournament, therefore giving them more prep time for the
    NCAA's.  This I find utterly ridiculous.  A coach *wanting* to lose a
    game?  Hardly likely.  More likely is them trying to put a positive
    face on an otherwise negative situation.
    
    
    re: BobHunt
    
    File it away any way you want.  I wanted Virginia to make
    the tournament.  Objectively speaking though, I don't believe 15 wins
    gets you there.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3714Uh-oh, yet another weasel remark! Boo hoo hoo!SASE::SZABOMon Mar 16 1992 15:139
    re: last week's argument about the kid from Maryland being better off
        (or not) if he played at UNC....
    
    A bit of trivia I heard on the radio this morning about the '85 draft
    where Sam Bowie got the #2 pick, ahead of His Airness.  "Is there a truer
    testament to `The System'?", I thought/chuckled to myself...  :-)
    
    Hawk
    
17.3715jobbed againANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDailyAffirmation w/ BayouMainMon Mar 16 1992 15:3817
    >I din'it hear Billy denounce the tourneys
    
    He said, paraphrasing, "they serve absolutely no purpose nowadays,
    with the 64-team tournament, other than to put TV revenues into the
    coffers, I think eventually you'll see them go away."
    
    >Fool me once, shame on you
    >Fool me twice...
    
    Touche, Denny.  I didn't wanna do this bet cuz a the collection
    problems endemic to this file, but somehow I just didn't believe that 
    BobHunt could stoop as low as the inimitable /Roachy-poachy main.  
    
    Live and learn.  The skeery part a this is had I lost the bet I woulda
    paid in full and on time!  Brrrr.
    
    Poor MrT
17.3716STRATA::CAPPELMon Mar 16 1992 15:3919
    
    I still haven't seen a note from ACChris concerning his absolute
    ridiculous statements concerning Walt Williams(not being known
    by NBA Coaches, scouts, etc.).  Not even a single comment on how
    stupid that comment was??? :-)
    
    Plus did anyone else noticed how quickly he shut up when given hard
    evidence that he called Charlotte's pick of Larry Johnson the right
    pick and that they shouldn't have picked Mutombo.  Not even an
    admission of error????
    
    Plus he's on the Virginia underachieved bandwagon but fails to point
    out how miserably UNC has underachieved this year.  Talent-wise they
    were a top-5 team with no holes and a supposed superior coach.  Instead
    they end the season 3-6 after an 18-3 start.  Dean must be thanking
    his lucky stars that he scheduled his regular 7-10 cupcakes again this
    year.
    
    And he has the gall to call himself objective....
17.3717EARRTH::BROOKSMoney don't matter 2 night ...Mon Mar 16 1992 15:4115
    Bob, you got us confused. First you said that NC has a clear shot at
    the Sweet 16, then you say (in the next note) that Alabama will knock
    'em off ... which one is it ?
    
    As far as I'm concerned 15-13 shouldn't be good enough for ANYONE, but
    look at the bright side - UVA can win the NIT, they had no chance in
    the NCAA's (IMO).
    
    Lastly, I don't see where the Southeast is so easy. It isn't aDeath
    march, but frankly, I don't see any steamrollers, al la UNLV last year
    and the year before. There are a lot of ifs, and a hot team (Chris, do
    NOT seize on this as Excuse 284 !!!) could go a long way in this
    tourney.
    
    Doc
17.3718No, we didn't notice !EARRTH::BROOKSMoney don't matter 2 night ...Mon Mar 16 1992 15:445
    re .3716
    
    Cap, you write stupid notes.
    
    There, how's that for an admission ?
17.3719Dry your tears, Po' MrTSCNDRL::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now !!!Mon Mar 16 1992 16:144
Here you go, T.   Was jest having some fun wif' ya.  You shouldn't mind, 
should ya ???   After all, this was a pretty innocent prank, don'tcha know.

Bob Hunt  
17.3720Same old, same old ...SCNDRL::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now !!!Mon Mar 16 1992 16:179
17.3721Thanky, BobHunt. One full active week please.ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDailyAffirmation w/ BayouMainMon Mar 16 1992 16:171
    
17.3722Stupid Bet gets its just desserts! Haw haw haw!!!111RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 16 1992 16:238
    On 2nd thought MorT, I'm glad you collected on yer wager.  Feel free to
    send me that mainly congratulatory mail message, thanking North
    Carolina for the upset over the 'Noles.
    
    :^)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3723Come, come ... I'm a main of my wordSHALOT::HUNTVirginia -- 1992 ACC Women's Hoops ChampsMon Mar 16 1992 16:283
 You're welcome, T.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3724ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDailyAffirmation w/ BayouMainMon Mar 16 1992 16:2818
    Speaking a the 'Noles, who are a year older and every bit as widebodied
    after having gone up on the Hoosiers last year by 17, here's the death
    march the putatively #4 Hoosiers face:
    
    E. Illinois		N/A
    
    Lousiana St.	the most physically dominating center since Bill
    			Walton, coach!, Dale Brown, coach joe ace off!
    
    Florida St.		wide wide wide nuke nuke nuke watch out
    
    Gougetown 		at least they have only one lottery pick this year
    			but he's dealing and then there's that other big guy
    
    UCLA		blew away the Hoosiers once already on a neutral
    			floor
    
    Duke		N/A
17.3725More unanswered questionsSCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesMon Mar 16 1992 16:342
       Hey Chrisp, did you forget to read 17.3716?
                                         Denny
17.3726exRAVEN1::B_ADAMSI'm too tough to tame!Mon Mar 16 1992 16:3512
    
    	All in all a pretty good tournament...except for the Championship
    game..boring...but the Duke played well.
    
    	Sorry to hear abouthe Ya hoos not making the dance..but they got
    the NIT, it's better than nothing.
    
    	Nexted year should be grand!!! All of the *YOUNG* teams getting
    much better...i.e.State! I hope!
    
    B.A.
    
17.3727More ...SHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Mon Mar 16 1992 16:5446
 I'm not trying to puff up the Hoos into something they ain't.   They shoot
 the ball as badly as any college team I've ever seen (24.7% against Ga
 Tech in the Tournament).  The young kids make way too many young kid
 mistakes and even Bryant Stith, one of the best clutch players the
 conference has ever seen, has had some really awful moments this year. 
 There's no way they woulda won The Title.
 
 No, I'm torqued *not* because they didn't make it but because other ACC
 teams with equally suspect weaknesses made it and, not only that, got
 semi-decent seedings.   If Ga Tech at 8-8 gets a No 7 seed and Wake at 7-9
 gets a No 9 seed, doesn't that stand to reason that an 8-8 Wahoo team
 shoulda gotten a No 8 seed ???   And Carolina's 9-7 record was good enough
 for a No 4 seed ???   No way.
 
 That's what hurts the most.   You line up the ACC standings and you see
 the injustice ...
 
 	Duke		14-2, No 1 seed
 	Florida State	11-5, No 3 seed
 	North Carolina	 9-7, No 4 seed
 	Georgia Tech	 8-8, No 7 seed
 	Virginia	 8-8, NIT Road Game
 	Wake Forest	 7-9, No 9 seed
 
 
 That ain't right.  Why should the Hoos even be in the conference if they
 get shafted like that ???   If you leave them home, then certainly the
 Deacons shoulda stayed home too and the Yellow Jackets shoulda been a
 very shaky bubble team as well.   But it didn't happen and that's really
 discouraging.
 
 As it is, Ga Tech is considered one of the top 28 (4 x 7) teams in the
 country and Wake is top 36 (4 x 9).   You mean to tell me that Virginia is
 an NIT *road* team ???   No freakin' way.
 
 Like I said, if Jones lightens up on his schedule nexted year, he'll only
 be following the lead of the rest of his conference brethern, Duke
 excepted.  Snuffy's No 4 seed is unbelievably bogus given his mediocre
 conference record and incredibly soft cupcake non-conference slate.  
 Sheet, he lost only once outta conference (Irish) and the Hoos kicked the
 snot outta them just a week later.   But there's no way the NCAA seeds the
 Snuffer in the lower half of any region's bracket.   No matter how
 mediocre the Heels play, Snuff's Schnozz is good for an upper half seed.  
 That's very sad.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3728Keep it up Bob, you're making my day better and better ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 16 1992 16:5918
    re: .3727
    
    Haw!  Blame the Cavs sad (very sad) state of affairs on Dean!  Luv
    it!!!
    
    BTW, after Virginia's horrid start you went on record as saying they
    needed nine (9) conference wins to make the NCAA's.  Didn't get 'em,
    and now you're moaning.  Also the argument about Tech being a "Top 28"
    team is bogus.  Of course Virginia is one of the top 64 teams in the
    country - that's not the issue.  Wake deserves its high ranking, so
    does Carolina.  It's all the automagic qualifiers, who don't have
    anywhere near the firepower of any of the big conference schools, who
    screw things up.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3729Nothin' could be finer than beating Carolina...SHALOT::MEDVIDDancing in the deepest oceansMon Mar 16 1992 17:0552
    Well I was one of those cardboard cutouts in the seats yesterday at the
    Charlotte Coliseum.  Paid $55 (that's $40 over face value) to get a
    seat at midcourt top level.  We were rationalizing things at first, but
    this game and the experience ended up being worth every dollar.

    We were sitting in what was left of the Virginia section.  There were
    still a lot of Virginia fans that hung around for the game, and we had
    a few Carolina fans sitting near us.  Oh what a dream.

    The first thing I noticed is that when Carolina took the floor, only
    the Carolina fans cheered.  When Duke took the floor, the Duke fans and
    the rest of the ACC fans left over cheered.  But, Carolina had a large
    crowd in the Carolina section and dispersed throughout the coliseum and
    they ended up being slightly louder than the "Duke" fans.

    Carolina had a funny, yet very politically incorrect taunt of Brian
    Davis.  When he went to the foul line, they began chanting
    "Boooooooyfriend, Booooooooyfriend," in obvious reference to the SI
    article about the rumors between him and Laettner.

    After awhile, I became the comedian of our section, with the Virginia
    fans laughing at everything I said and the Carolina fans becoming quite
    agitated.  A couple of my gems were:

    	- When Carolina was down by 15 in the second half and went on
    	  offense, I yelled, "Go to the 4 corners, Dean!"

    	- When they were on the verge of defeat and the Carolina fans
    	  were not as happy, I yelled, "It's as quiet as the Dean Dome
    	  over there now!"

    	- When Montross went out on one of the endless substitutions I
    	  yelled, "Dean, adjust the bolts in his neck and he'll play
    	  better!"

    	- And the one that made the Tarhole family next to us leave in
    	  a huff came when George Lynch fouled out: "Dean told him to
    	  foul out!  He had too many points and that goes against the
    	  system!"

    Oh, and the Tarhole fan sitting behind us had opened the excuse book,
    page 18 I think, and said in this heavy hick accent: "They don't call
    no fouls on Duke."  

    What a great time.  The Virginia fans from Richmond in front of us told
    us that this was the best tournament they'd ever attended.  They were
    sorry to see it leave Charlotte in a few years.  They said this is one
    of the nicest, greatest towns in the country.

    I gotta agree.

    	--dan'l
17.3730quit cheating me or I'll get roughANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDailyAffirmation w/ BayouMainMon Mar 16 1992 17:165
    If you "changed to the required string an hour ago" (which would 
    be at about 12:58 joe time, then why are you out a specification 
    yet again at 13:54?
    
    MrT
17.3731NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Mar 16 1992 17:1812
    
    Bob, where was Virginia ranked in relation to Georgia Tech and Wake
    Forest in the expanded AP ratings (i.e. amongst "other teams receiving
    votes")?  The selection committee undoubtedly uses rankings like that,
    with no more solid rationale than the writers have to have up their 
    picks.  I seriously doubt that they do any kind of the serious analysis 
    you do, comparing team performances against teams with players out with 
    injuries, etc.
    
    glenn
      
    
17.3732A true Duke fanSHALOT::MEDVIDDancing in the deepest oceansMon Mar 16 1992 17:268
    And one other thing that had me rollward yesterday was this guy wearing
    a T-shirt with Dean's face on it, except instead of his big ol'snuffer
    shnozola, his nose was thin and pointy.  The caption on the shirt was:
    
    
    
    "I wanna be like Mike"
    
17.3733a nit on the Carolina upset of DukeTNPUBS::MCCULLOUGHLindsey's gonna be a sister!!!Mon Mar 16 1992 17:365
re: a few back

I remember distinctly the Duke/Carolina regular season game in which Hurley 
broke his foot.  I remember commenting in here that Hurley look lost, and was 
way off his game, and then learning about hs injury later that day.
17.3734DUGROS::ROSSD-o-u-gMon Mar 16 1992 17:528
    As a longtime ACC fan {Hi MrT!} I have to say that Virginia did not
    deserve a tournament slot... and Wake didn't either.   Also, the Heels
    should have been a #5 or #6 seed.  
    
    Rodney Rogers or Grant Hill, that is THE question!    
    
    Rodney should got pro NOW... I would take him over everybody but the
    Shaq.  He's the second coming of Karl Malone.
17.3735CSCOA1::ROLLINS_RMon Mar 16 1992 17:5813
17.3736Bah (still continued) ...SHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Mon Mar 16 1992 18:0427
17.3737CNTROL::CHILDSFour Tops &gt;&gt; TemptationsMon Mar 16 1992 18:169
Well driving back from NY last night I listened to FAN wit the tourney show
where they were interviewing committee members on the seedings. One question
was why Syracuse got a 6 while Seton Hall got a 4. The waxed on and on
eloquently how Seton Hall's 8 game winning streak before the tournement came
into play. Fine. So why a 4 for Dean? They certainly didn't finish hot nor
play a tough out of conference schedule? 

mike
17.3738UNC comes off the mat to finish strong.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 16 1992 18:189
    re: .3737 (North Carolina didn't finish hot)
    
    Not true.  Carolina won 3 outa their last 5, with the only losses
    coming at the hands of the awesome Blue Debils.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3739DUGROS::ROSSTwo Springteen albums soon!Mon Mar 16 1992 18:311
    Tar Heel definition of "hot" :   60%
17.3740some jive bull there ACChrisCNTROL::CHILDSFour Tops &gt;&gt; TemptationsMon Mar 16 1992 18:3415
 The guy obviously implied that winning two games in a tournement ain't no
 big deal if winning a tournement meant nothing to SU who finished their
 regular season in much the same fashion as NC. 

 Let's see NC climbs to #4 and drops as low as #20, SU climbs as high as
 #10 and drops out of the top 25. Both have whinny coaches who's gag are
 legendary. Both always get a blue chipper or two every recruiting season.
 The simularites are amazin...why no #4 for SU? 

 why cause they didn't deserve it neither did NC....

 oh and btw my name is Mike.....

 ;^) 
17.3741Miami (Ohio) even qualifies!SHALOT::MEDVIDDancing in the deepest oceansMon Mar 16 1992 19:1013
>    Tar Heel definition of "hot" :   60%
    
    Ewwwww, that even makes excuse #12 from the excuse bible even more
    useful:
    
    	"We ran into a hot team."
    
    That would mean anyone that Smith choked to in the tournament that was
    playing .600 or better could qualify as a hot team.
    
    They'll like that.
    
    	--dan'l
17.3742Gotta look at the facts ... Hoos got shaftedSCNDRL::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now !!!Mon Mar 16 1992 19:5131
17.3743Be a main and quit bellyachin'. :^|RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 16 1992 20:087
    Your comparisons with the Cavs vs. UNC schedules are *way* outa line
    Bob.  As I already stated, Sagarin's schedule strength shows almost no
    difference between the two schedules, yet Carolina ended up 21-9 and
    Virginia 15-13.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3744Call your bluffSCNDRL::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now !!!Mon Mar 16 1992 20:153
Tell me what tough non-conference teams Carolina played, Soup.

Bob Hunt
17.3745Saragin a stat geek of the worsted kind!RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGo Fordham Rams!Mon Mar 16 1992 20:276
    
    As I stated during college football, I think Jeff Saragin's ratings are
    a crock of doo-whip.  How that computer nerd/geek got to be such an
    expert is beyond me.  His numbers never make any sense.
    
    JD
17.3746The facts ... cold and bareSHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Mon Mar 16 1992 20:4040
 I'll do it for you ...
 
 Carolina Non-Conference Schedule ...
 
 	Home			Away			Neutral
 	----			----			-------
 	The Citadel		Houston			Notre Dame
 	Towson State		Seton Hall
 	Cornell			Jacksonville
 	Central Florida		
 	Purdue
 	Colorado
 	Villanova
 
 That's 7 automatic home games, 3 on the road and 1 neutral.   There are a
 grand total of *two* NCAA teams in there ... Houston is a No 10 seed and
 Seton Hall is a No 4 seed.
 
 Virginia Non-Conference Schedule ...
 
 	Home			Away			Neutral
 	----			----			-------
 	William and Mary	Alabama			Georgetown
 	Pennsylvania		New Orleans		ODU or VCU ?
 	Marshall		Stanford		Virginia Tech
 	Notre Dame		Richmond		
 
 That's only 4 at home and Notre Dame was not an automatic win.   At least
 three NCAA teams on the road or neutral.  Bama is a No 5 seed; Stanford is
 a No 12 and Georgetown is a No 6.   It's 4 if they played ODU (a No 15); 
 they might have played VCU the night before Richmond ... I don't recall. 
 And Richmond was going to the Big Dance if they hadn't stumbled in their
 Tourney (Colonial ?).
 
 Now you tell me whose schedule was tougher.   You finished 10-1 against
 your cupcakes while the Hoos went 7-4 against this much tougher slate. 
 Cold busted again, Soup.  You'd think after all this time, you'd quit
 flinging yourself off the cliff of reason so often.   But noooooooo ...
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3747BadSHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Tue Mar 17 1992 00:1815
 And the more you think about this smelly state of affairs, the worse it
 stinks ...  Imagine Snuff's sales pitch later this spring when he hits the
 recruiting trail ...
 
   "Don't you worry now, son.   I can guarantee that no matter how weak our
   non-conference schedule is and no matter how poorly we play at the end
   of the year, my reputation alone will still get us at the very least a
   No. 4 seed and a clear path to the NCAA Sweet 16 every year.   I'll have
   you on television at least 20 times a year including late March when
   everyone's watching.   They take me every year, no matter what."
 
 Ugh.  Someday Snuff will hit the skids and there'll be no end to the
 gleeful delight of the Anti-Faithful.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3748RAVEN1::B_ADAMSI'm too tough to tame!Tue Mar 17 1992 01:086
    	It was in the papers today that Smif' said that Christian should
    get the Tony award for his acting when someone gets close too
    him(charging). Imagine that!

    B.A.
17.374915 W's gits ya an at-large bid? NOT!!!!11RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Mar 17 1992 11:5426
    Listening to your bellyachin' (to say nothing of your Thypocrisy) keeps
    makin' me happier and happier Ketch.  The highlight has got to be
    Carolina's supposed clear path to the Sweet 16, which, assuming we get
    past a first round game on an opponents near-home floor will entail a
    game with either 'Bama (likely) or Stanford, two (2) Virginia opponents
    you just got telling us were oh-so-tough.
    
    Heh!
    
    Lemme sum things up though:
    
    1. Someone at Virginia doesn't know how to schedule.  I'll grant youze
       guys a tough schedule - tougher than Carolina's.  But when you've
       got as young a team as either UVa or UNC it's not the time to go
       out and play the AP Top 20 on the road.  Confidence can deteriorate
       rapidly with a heavy carry-over into the conference schedule.
    
    2. I don't believe a team with 15 W's has *ever* gotten an at-large bid
       in the NCAA's.  I also haven't seen anybody but you screaming and
       hollering that the Cavs got jobbed.  Fact is, when you only win 15
       it doesn't matter a flip what your schedule looks like.  Just axe
       Notre Dame, which had to have the most difficult schedule in the
       USA ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3750CTHQ3::LEARYBeano:PreventGasBeforeItStartsTue Mar 17 1992 12:0010
    Wail Chris,
    If ND had gone 15-13, they every might well have gotten an NCAA bid
    (putting aside the deserving notion or not) strictly because of
    srength of schedule. Don't you think UVa might have felt more jobbed
    if ND, who was crushed by the Hoos, went to the Big Dance? Huntmeister
    would've been howling more! So I think he has some legitimacy to his
    gripe.
    
    MikeL
    
17.3751No easy ride ahead for the HeelsNAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Mar 17 1992 12:4315
    I think North Carolina's got a reasonably tough second-round game in #5
    seed Alabama (assuming no upsets, as happened all the way up the
    ladder for UNC last year).  Other #5s include Missouri, DePaul, and
    Michigan State.  I'd probably rate Missouri as the tops of this bunch 
    but I think UNC would rather face a DePaul than Alabama.
    
    Also, the road to the Final 8 for UNC goes through Ohio State.   I
    almost think that if you're concerned with making the Final 8 (my
    estimate of a satisfactory accomplishment for this UNC team) you might 
    rather be a #6 seed and face #3 (Arizona) and #2 (Oklahoma State) than
    have to go through Ohio State.
    
    glenn
    
17.3752More facts for you, Soup.SHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Tue Mar 17 1992 12:5153
17.3753:-)FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Tue Mar 17 1992 12:534
    And *NONE* of them played the University of Massachusetts so none of
    them had a strong schedule.  So there.
    
    Ninj
17.3754ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDailyAffirmation w/ BayouMainTue Mar 17 1992 13:199
    >How that computer nerd/geek got to be such an expert is beyond
    >me.  His numbers never make any sense.
    
    Jeff Sagarin, Hoosier Boy, grew up next to Indiana University (I
    believe his dad was/is a science professor there), and took a 
    degree in, again I'm guessing, either mathematics or 
    applied statistics, from MIT.
    
    MrT
17.3755Built-in Hoosier bias (performance against widebodystuds)?NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Mar 17 1992 13:2419
    
    >>How that computer nerd/geek got to be such an expert is beyond
    >>me.  His numbers never make any sense.
                  
    > Jeff Sagarin, Hoosier Boy, grew up next to Indiana University (I
    > believe his dad was/is a science professor there), and took a 
    > degree in, again I'm guessing, either mathematics or 
    > applied statistics, from MIT.
    
    Maybe that's why he's had Indiana at #1 all year long?  ;-)
    
    As with football, I think Sagarin's ratings are fairly decent for 
    strength of schedule determinations, but not for actual rankings.  The 
    difference is that the error in averaging all your opponents' ratings 
    is much less than the error associated with a single team's rating.
    Sample size...
    
    glenn
    
17.3756ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDailyAffirmation w/ BayouMainTue Mar 17 1992 14:126
    Agreed.  Sagarin's rankings are useful when you look at the strength
    a schedule, but fall down when it comes to the actual ranking.  It
    also seems like he doesn't compensate for key injuries, development,
    and other qualitative variables.
    
    MrT
17.3757RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGo Fordham Rams!Tue Mar 17 1992 14:348
    Chris, and Bob -
    
    The one thing I agree on is that a team with a sub .500 record in a
    conference does not deserve to go to the dance.  I don't think Virginia
    should have been there, but neither should Wake - or for that matter,
    wasn't Iowa State something like 5-9 in conference play?  
    
    JD
17.3758Sips big timeSHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Tue Mar 17 1992 14:4417
17.3759CHEATANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDailyAffirmation w/ CajunMainTue Mar 17 1992 15:495
    re 1
    
    Please buddy, I axe you: Pay the damned bet.
    
    MrT
17.3760CSCOAC::ROLLINS_RTue Mar 17 1992 15:5025
> And once again, you're deliberately igKnorring the point.   I'm not
> lobbying *for* the Wahoos.  I just want to know why the NCAA completely
> igKnorred their 8-8 conference record and rewarded Ga Tech and Wake for
> their similar results and their *weaker* non-conference slates.
> 
> Given that Tech's 8-8 and Wake's 7-9 were deemed worthy enough of an
> invite, you have to assume that the Hoos' 8-8 was also so noted.   Thus,
> their 7-4 record against a pretty tough non-conference slate worked
> *against* them, fer cripes sake.
 
  Tech was also 3-0 against Virginia this year.  That's convincing enough
  for me that Tech should be favored over Virginia for getting an NCAA
  tournament spot.

  The chairman of the NCAA tournament committee made a statement indicating
  that one of the things they do is they compare strengths of conferences
  and make an evaluation as to how many teams should go from each conference.
  At that point they would determine who should go from the conference.
  Suppose they said the ACC should get 5 slots.  Duke, FSU, and UNC certainly
  deserve bids (perhaps the seedings are questionable).  NC State, Maryland,
  and Clemson clearly do not.  Tech went 3-0 vs Virginia, 1-1 vs Wake.
  Why would there be any question that Tech should go over Virginia ?

  I'm not as knowledgeable about the Wake-Virginia comparison, but that
  would be the final determining factor as who should go.
17.3762testRIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGo Fordham Rams!Tue Mar 17 1992 17:440
17.3764RAVEN1::B_ADAMSI'm too tough to tame!Tue Mar 17 1992 18:4428
	The ACC had one player on the first team All America...Duke's 
Christian Laettner.

	The ACC has second Team honors going to..Walt Williams of Mayland.

	Third team went to Bobby Hurley of Duke.

	Honorable mention went to these ACC players..

	Sam Cassell Fla.St
	Eric Montross   UNC
	Rodney Rodger  Wake Forest
	Bryant Stith	UVa


	I can't believe that Goo Goo didn't get a mention...oh well..

BTW,
    	Coach Pat Kennedy fot COY award today...
    
    	Coach K
    	Williams
    	Robinson
    	Ellis in that order
    
    B.A.
    
17.3765No way.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Mar 17 1992 18:507
    re: .-1
    
    Something's wrong with yer note.  Eric Montross AA?  Hubert Davis *NOT*
    a_AA?  I think you've got yer names mixed up ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3766We got your #ISLNDS::REEVETue Mar 17 1992 19:0918
    Not to get mixed up in the fray, cause I think UVa shoulda gone, but
    when you mentioned Tech's non-conference schedule, you left out a
    couple of biggies, Bob. Tech also played Okie State(L) in the Finals of
    the Pre-season NIT and Kentucky(W). I also think they played Texas in
    the NIT but ain't sure, and JMU was no slouch either winning 24-25
    games this year. Tech ended the season at 21-11 and only lost 2
    games they shoulda won, Clemson and Georgia, both in OT and both
    traditional rivalries where anything can happen. And as mentioned
    before, beat UVa thrice thisted year. Don't no about now, but in
    preseason, Tech was rated very high (5?) in schedule toughness and
    historically plays one of the toughest schedules in the country.
    
    Tech not only deserves to be in the tournament, but the #7 seed is
    about right. UNC should be a 6 and UVa about a 10, but nobody ever said
    life was fair. Like someone else said, the big problem is all the
    automatics for the weanie :^o conferences.
    
    Chris
17.3767RAVEN1::B_ADAMSI'm too tough to tame!Tue Mar 17 1992 19:178
    
    Chris, I thought the same thing as well..but no Davis...sorry..
    
    
    	I got the complete list if you want the names...let me know..
    
    B.A.
    
17.3768Still more grumbling ...SHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Tue Mar 17 1992 19:3037
 I was less certain about Ga Tech's schedule than about Wake's.  Thanks for
 the correction.   The pre-season guide I was using listed JMU as their
 opening round NIT opponent but (obviously) didn't list their follow-on
 games.   
 
 It also said "Kuppenheimer Classic" in Lexington, Ky and I didn't know if
 that was the Wildcats or not.   Again thanks for the cleanup and yes, the
 Jackets' schedule looks quite a bit better afterwards.
 
 And, yes, I know all too well that Ga Tech went 3-0 against the Hoos. 
 That's about 6 or 7 in a row too, for that matter.   They were clearly the
 4th best team in the ACC.   
 
 But again, you can play the game in a lot of different ways with them ...
 Virginia split with Florida State and Ga Tech got swept by 'em.  Same with
 Carolina (Hoos 1-1, Jackets 0-2).   The Noles and the Heels were both
 better than Ga Tech yet the Hoos went 2-2 while the Jackets went 0-4
 against the two of 'em combined.   
 
 The Hoos were clearly the 5th best team inside the conference.   Not only
 that but they finished hot winning their lasted 3 conference games while
 somebody else (Hint: A No 4 seed) was losing 5 outta 6.   {Aside: Hoos
 were 4-2 during that same season-ending non-peaking stretch.}
 
 All boils down to the bitter end and, to my way of thinking, they both
 finished at 8-8 and thus both deserved bids (or they both deserved snubs,
 one way or the other).   Yes, 21-11 is better than 15-13 so it all keeps
 coming back around to something I've been saying since early yesterday
 morning.  Jeff Jones needs to go cupcake-gorging next year.   If the Hoos
 can put together a pussy 10-1 non-conference slate a la the Snuffer, they
 can then afford to go 8-8 in conference and will then go Dancing with an
 18-9 record.
 
 Nobody's computer would blink twice at them for it, either.   Anybody got
 The Citadel's phone number ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3769Call Dave Maggard at MiamiCTHQ3::LEARYBeano:PreventGasBeforeItStartsTue Mar 17 1992 19:311
    
17.3770RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGo Fordham Rams!Tue Mar 17 1992 19:416
    Eric Montross - an all-american.  I almost puked my lunch.  How he gets
    honorable mention and not Davis is beyond my ability to comprehend.
    
    Who was 2nd team Center?  Mourning or the Shack?
    
    JD
17.3771somebody tell me there wasn't payola involved - PLEEEZE!!!7389::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Tue Mar 17 1992 19:461
    
17.3772All AmericanRAVEN1::B_ADAMSI'm too tough to tame!Tue Mar 17 1992 21:0958
	First team...

	Christian Laettner
	Shaquille O'Neil
	Jim Jackson
	Harold Miner
	Alonzo Mourning

	Second team...

	Walt Williams
	Bryant Houston
	Don MacLean
	Anthony Peeler
	Adam Keefe

	Third Team...

	Todd Day
	Bobby Hurley
	Malik Sealy
	Calbert Cheaney
	Lee Mayberry

	Honorable Mention...

	Damon Bailey
	Vin Baker
	Tony Bennet
	Nathan Call
	Sam Cassel
	Parrish Casebier
	Doug Christie
	RB Jones
	Popeye Jones
	Adonis Jordon
	Terrell Lowery
	Jamal Mashburn
	Jim McCoy
	Chris Miller
	Oliver Miller
	Eric Montross
	Tracy Murray
	Terrance Rencher
	Sean Rooks
	Rodney Rogers
	Jalen Rose
	Reginald Slater
	Chris Smith
	Elmore Spencer
	Bryant Stith
	Rex Walters
	Clarence Weatherspoon
	Henry Williams
	Randy Woods

B.A.
17.3773ROYALT::ASHEThey're creepy and they're kooky...Tue Mar 17 1992 21:372
    No Chris Webber either...
    
17.3774Montross is an AA ... It's true.SHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Wed Mar 18 1992 03:1729
 The list I saw in yesterday's paper did indeed have Eric Montross listed
 as an Honorable Mention All-American.   And don't blow a gasket, Soup. 
 Hubie Davis was on the list as well.
 
 I can not for the life of me believe that Eric Montross made AA.   He's a
 *platoon* player, fer cripes sake.   Snuff spends all game long yo-yoing
 Montross and Salvadori ... especially late in the game when he switches
 them each time the ball changes hands.   The kid can barely leap over his
 own shoelaces and is so agonizingly slow in the paint you can time him
 with a sundial.
 
 And he makes AA ???   Somebody has been seriously anesthestized by Dickie
 V's awful gushing on the youngster.
 
 Well, a coupla good things come out of this ... We don't have to listen
 anymore to Soup tell us that high school AA's don't automagically turn
 into college AA's just cause they go to Carolina.   And when Eric leaves
 Chapel Hill in '94 as ringless as Brad, JR, Joe Wolf, and most of the rest
 of Carolina's NBA big men (with Sam Perkins the lone exception), we can
 always keep up the ragging on Snuffer's perpetual choke jobs with his
 lineup of *All-American* studs.
 
 That is one helluva nutty selection.   First a No 4 seed for a 9-7 team
 that went 1-5 down the stretch and now an AA award for a part-time player. 
 Nexted time you neutral observers out there think we're just blowing smoke
 when we piss and moan about Snuffer's outrageously lop-sided recruiting
 advantages, just remember the gifts this quack of a coach gets.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3775Ante up now, Chris and weaselsDUGROS::ROSSTwo Springteen albums soon!Wed Mar 18 1992 11:2325
    Okay, weasels, let's do the honorable thing and establish what level of
    achievement Dean must reach in the tournament to warrant high praise.
    
    I say, if NC loses in Round 1, they have had a below average season and 
      that Dean has seriously underachieved this year.
          
      If NC loses in Round 2, they have had a fair season and that
    	Dean has underachieved this year.
    
      If NC loses in Round 3, they have had a good season and Dean has met
      	expectations.
    
      If NC loses in Round 4, they have had a very good  season and Dean has
    	somewhat exceeded expectations.  One week reprieve from bashing.
    
      If NC loses in the Final Four,  they have had a very good season and 
        Dean has done an excellent coaching job.   One month reprieve from
    	bashing.
    
      If NC loses in the title game, they have had an excellent season and
    	Dean deserves a reprieve from all bashing for a period of 12 months.
    
      If NC wins the title, Dean = Bob... I will never say another bad
      thing about the system.
    
17.3776Penalty for bad conduct ???SHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Wed Mar 18 1992 12:185
 Nice work, Doug.  Looks quite reasonable to me.   However, I'd like to
 suggest one amendment ... For each technical foul called against Dean or
 his bench jockeys, we slice 1 week off whatever bashing reprieve he earns.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3777STRATA::CAPPELWed Mar 18 1992 12:3211
    The only question that I have is that we have not taken into account
    his underachievement this season.  Talent-wise, he has a top 10 team
    that should have won more games this year with there weak schedule
    and been a higher seed.  I think if he loses in round 4 than he has
    met expectations, anything else than this season must be considered
    an underachievement.
    
    I mean if the 6th or 7th best player on this squad(Montross) is an
    AA than the club is mega-talented.
    
    
17.3778NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 18 1992 12:348
    
    Exactly the expectations I've been trying to get ACChris to sign his
    name to for a couple weeks now, Doug.  Final 16 or underachievement,
    anything beyond that to the Snuff's credit.  Don't hold your breath
    waiting for an acknowledgement, though...
    
    glenn
    
17.3779The only real AA is a *first-team* AA, anyway...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 18 1992 12:3910
    
    Oh yeah, and let's not get carried away with this AA stuff.  After I
    went home last night and saw what the deal was, I was no longer so
    astonished that Montross made it.  There are 29 honorable mentions,
    essentially six teams' worth.  That means that Montross could be a
    *9th-team* All-America and still make it.  Hell, Damon Bailey made AA,
    too.
    
    glenn
    
17.3780BobHunt: Self-righteous cheatANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDailyAffirmation w/ CajunMainWed Mar 18 1992 14:005
    >Nice work, Doug.  Looks quite reasonable to me.
    
    Who in the HELL are you to pontificate on what's reasonable?  Welsh.
    
    MrT
17.3781Not to defend Smif or Chris, but ...LUNER::BROOKSMoney don't matter 2 night ...Wed Mar 18 1992 14:0128
    Damon Bailey = Montross ? :-)

    (Note strategic silence from Cap on that one ... :-)

    I like the way Doug sets the bar, and Cap raises it ... 

    I want you guys to be honest, if Dean-o makes it to the Sweet 16, and
    loses, you will bash him.

    If he makes the Final 8, you'll work a little longer, but still find a
    reason to bash.

    If he makes the Final 4, and loses to a team seeded lower than NC was,
    we'll still hear the BashCrew at work.

    And even if Dean wins the title (gasp), we'll hear how if they did that,
    NC should have went 30-0, and swept the ACC Tourny ...

    You guys are too much !

    BTW, in the name of equal time, let's set some standards for Bob Knight
    shall we ? after all IU was in the Top 5 (last I looked), and anything
    less than a Sweet 16 has to rate as a Smif-level gag job of
    Underachievement.

    Right ?

    Dr NCAA MidKnight
17.3782More ...SHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Wed Mar 18 1992 14:0523
 Eric Montross was not even a blip on the All-ACC radar scope.  Nowhere to
 be found.  It would have been laughable.
 
 How many times does a player completely miss the all-conference list and
 then make the All-American list instead ???   This *has* to be a first.
 
 And, by the way, here's a fresh Snuffer quote about young Boris ...
 
   "I'm making a film for Mr. [Fred] Barakat (ACC supervisor of officials). 
   It's a Montross film for his summer viewing.  I feel sorry for the guy
   (Montross).  He's so big and strong.  Guys run into him and they bounce
   off him and he gets called for the fouls.   I'm not saying the refs are
   bad.  I can't use the word 'double standard' around here.   Let's just
   say 'different'."
 
 Oh, one more thing ... 19 years ago, the year after Carolina went to the
 Final Four and lost to Florida State, the Miami (Ohio) Redskins upset the
 Tar Heels, 102-92, in Carmichael Auditorium in Chapel Hill.
 
 Game time is 12:15pm tomorrow.   With any luck, we'll have some fun in
 here late in the afternoon.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3783and Woody Austin of Purdue is a GREAT lil' guardANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDailyAffirmation w/ CajunMainWed Mar 18 1992 14:057
    The glaring mistake in that was not having Acie Earl as an Honorable
    Mention.  Obviously Damon Bailey got it cuz a his name recognition
    factor.  He's not even All Big10 material.  But Greg Graham sure is.
    
    Peplowski and Webber played at a HM level too.
    
    MrT
17.3784Sir Isaac himself would approveSHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Wed Mar 18 1992 14:2721
17.3785In summary, Doc: so what?NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 18 1992 14:3621
    > BTW, in the name of equal time, let's set some standards for Bob Knight
    > shall we ? after all IU was in the Top 5 (last I looked), and anything
    > less than a Sweet 16 has to rate as a Smif-level gag job of
    > Underachievement.
    
    I've already stated over in Big Ten that I have slightly higher
    expectations of Indiana.  Definite underachievement if they don't
    advance to the Sweet 16, disappointment if they don't make the 
    Final 8.  I expect a disciplined win over LSU, and a tight game with
    FSU/Georgetown.  On the other hand, I don't see UNC getting past Ohio 
    State to advance to the Final 8, which was the main disadvantage in 
    drawing the #4 seed.
    
    Of course even if Indiana does underachieve and I acknowledge that fact
    it still remains that Knight really has nothing to prove at this
    point.  That's what three championships does for you; it removes any
    doubts on the all-time underachievement front...
                
    glenn
    
17.3786Doc nails Thypocrisy (tm) on haid - you can expect persecution ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 18 1992 14:527
    > We put up with all kinds of bloated ... prior to Indy ...
    
    For the record, I was in training the week prior to the Final 4 lasted
    year.  Hence my noting activity was minimal at most.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3787ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDailyAffirmation w/ CajunMainWed Mar 18 1992 14:526
    >If NC wins the Title, Dean = Bob.
    
    Nice work, Doug.  If Snuffy wins the Title he's got two in 31 years
    to Bob's three in 21 years.  Equable.
    
    MrT
17.3788[stink] bombs away!SASE::SZABOA black Sportie and a cold beer...Wed Mar 18 1992 14:527
    Rollward, Bob!
    
    BTW Dock, coming from a relentless [Celtics] basher, I'm surprised you
    said all of that.  Softening up, are ya?  :-)
    
    Hawk
    
17.3789STRATA::CAPPELWed Mar 18 1992 15:076
    If IU does not make the Sweet 16 than they have underachieved this
    year.
    
    The fact does remain that Knight has won 3 titles and been as successful
    during the regular season with far less talent than Dean Smith has had.
    Don't you agree Doc?
17.3790Since when does your "noting activity" speak for The Faithful ???SHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Wed Mar 18 1992 15:0819
17.3791LUNER::BROOKSMoney don't matter 2 night ...Wed Mar 18 1992 15:398
    Soft-core gushing ?
    
    I'm dying !!!! Too funny ! :-)
    
    Bob, seeing that the Green Jihad has the same Newtonian reaction (did
    you get the 'gas' idea from my note to the Jihad Monday ? :-) as the
    BBF, I understand your point of view better. Just doing a sanity check
    on all concerned, esp. the smug IU faithful ...
17.3792Pay the debt, Witch. Just pay the damned debt.ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDailyAffirmation w/ CajunMainWed Mar 18 1992 15:491
    
17.3793Sorry, T, this debt is paid in full in 2 more daysSCNDRL::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now !!!Wed Mar 18 1992 16:049
Will you quit badgering me about this stupid p_name debt thing ???   It's 
right up there where it's been ever since Monday morning.   I have *not* 
touched the profile information on this Node::Account pair since then.   
I swear it on a stack a Bibles this high.

You just don't know a loophole when you see it and I'm driving a Mack truck 
through it.   And you call yourself a "legal whiz" ???   Har-har.

Bob Hunt
17.3794Begging like this becomes you, TSHALOT::MEDVIDDancing in the deepest oceansWed Mar 18 1992 16:048
>              -< Pay the debt, Witch.  Just pay the damned debt. >-
    
    He is, T.  I assure you as a friend and righteous music supplier (which
    you haven't acknowledged yet, ingrate) that Bob Hunt is most certainly
    running the agreed upon personal name in his profile and has not
    changed it.
    
    	--dan'l
17.3795C'mon Bob, be good...RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGo Fordham Rams!Wed Mar 18 1992 16:1821
              <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 17.3790          Atlantic Coast Conference Basketball          3790 of 3794
SHALOT::HUNT "Go Lady 'Hoos !!!"                     19 lines  18-MAR-1992 12:08
     -< Since when does your "noting activity" speak for The Faithful ?? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
    
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Bob -
    
    As the above clearly shows, you are not, IMO, honoring your bet.  And
    that saddens me.  I guess the soundrel node name is starting to fit you
    - if you keep this up. Next thing you know, you'll be a Tar Heel fan.
    
    Sad indeed.  Very sad.  What's next?  Making up L.A. Law plots? 
    Admitting that the Hornets made a mistake?  Becoming a Cowboys fan??
    
    A deeply disturbed JD.
17.3796You_been had, MrT! Haw har haw!!!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 18 1992 16:281
    
17.3797Anal reten-shone!SASE::SZABOA black Sportie and a cold beer...Wed Mar 18 1992 16:355
    
    >		-< Begging like this becomes you, T >-
    
    
    
17.3798I walk the straight and legal narrowSHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Wed Mar 18 1992 16:3811
17.3799ACC DancesRAVEN1::B_ADAMSI'm too tough to tame!Wed Mar 18 1992 16:4716
    O.K. guys here's MY ACC predicitions for the Dance...
    
    Ga.Tech will lose in the 2nd round to USC
    
    UNC will lose in the 2nd round to Alabama
    
    Fla.St will lose in the 3rd round to Indiana
    
    Wake will fall in the 2nd round to UCLA
    
    and Duke will beat Kansas for all the marbles!
    
    Having fun yet?
    
    B.A.
    
17.3800COBRA::BRYDIEJulie's in the Drug SquadWed Mar 18 1992 16:514
    
  >>  A deeply disturbed JD.
    
      I ain't touchin' it.
17.3801Reconcilia-shone :-) SASE::SZABOA black Sportie and a cold beer...Wed Mar 18 1992 16:592
    > A deeply disturbed JD.
    
17.3802RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGo Fordham Rams!Wed Mar 18 1992 17:227
    bob -
    
    I'm still disappointed.   Seems like the type of scam that an honarable
    Cavalier, er, Hoo, would never, ever do.  Sigh.   Like I said, next
    thing I know you'll be rooting for the Cowboys.
    
    Jd
17.3803Can only be pushed so far ...SHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Wed Mar 18 1992 18:159
17.3804Heels better not be looking past this one ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 19 1992 12:5515
    In many ways todays UNC @ Miami (OH) game couldn't be a worse setup for
    Carolina.  Consider that:
    
    o It's an away game (Ugh)
    o The opponent is quick and shoots lots of 3's, a combination that
      has been UNC's nemisis all year long
    
    All things considered, Carolina will be very fortunate to escape with a
    'W'.  I'm certainly not banking on it.  Only positive that I can see is
    that *if* we earn the win it should better prepare us for the winner of
    Alabama vs. Stanford but, if you wanna pick an upset, Miami > UNC
    wouldn't be a bad place to lay down your cash.  :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3805Once The System, Always The System ...SHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Thu Mar 19 1992 13:007
 Hubie Davis' scoring average this year is the highest for a Tar Heel since
 Charlie Scott over 20 years ago.   The local media hack, a diehard Baby
 Blue Pee-Pee Smoocher, proclaimed Davis' average is "ridiculously high".
 
 I'm not kidding.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3806ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDailyAffirmation w/ CajunMainThu Mar 19 1992 13:029
    In Miami Snuffer faces a Bob-acolyte coach, Joby Wright.  Joby's
    a player Bob could use right now, cuz he was automatic with that
    bank shot and played with anybody up front.
    
    The Star Hells' unbelievable seed goes a long way toward explaining
    the string of Sweet16 appearances (i.e., mediocre failures) that
    ACCrock gushes on about so.
    
    MrT
17.3807Wright takes dig at Knight. RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 19 1992 13:136
    Not only is Joby a Knight disciple, but he was recruited by Dean!  He
    sez no matter what happens today though, the end-of-season banquet will
    go on ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3808Do you think you're noting to idiots here, Chris?SHALOT::MEDVIDDancing in the deepest oceansThu Mar 19 1992 13:3021
>    Only positive that I can see is
>    that *if* we earn the win it should better prepare us for the winner of
>    Alabama vs. Stanford but, if you wanna pick an upset, Miami > UNC
>    wouldn't be a bad place to lay down your cash.  :^(
    
    You have outdone yourself this time, Chris.  Way too funny.  The
    Redskins over the Tarheels?  Give me a freakin' break!  UNC totally
    outmans Miami and is more dominant at every position including the
    bench.  
    
    Miami is not a scoring machine as you would have us think.  They only
    scored 55 points against Ball State to win their tournament.  The only
    plus for Miami is that they are a very good ball control team, but if
    you can't keep the other team from scoring that doesn't buy very much.
    
    Miami has not beaten a team of UNC's calibre all season.  The
    Mid-American Conference is good at best.  Stop your nonsensical
    pre-game excuses and face the fact that if Carolina falls today, it
    will be Smith's biggest choke bone to date.
    
    	--dan'l
17.3809DUGROS::ROSSParty on, MrTThu Mar 19 1992 13:337
    Chris, is there ANY team in the field that you would consider UNC to
    be a prohibitive favorite against? 
    
    Miami of Ohio is a #13 seed playing against the #4 seed.  The point
    spread is UNC by 7.  
    
    UNC should win and if they don't, they choked.  No excuses.
17.3810Carolina will have their hands full without question.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 19 1992 13:3715
    Objectively speaking dan'l, I cain't agree with you.  (Although if I
    could it sure would ease my mind some ...)
    
    Consider that the conference Miami (OH) is in (Mid-American) is long
    known as_a NCAA Tourney giant-killer.  Also the Redskins have played
    some top-flight teams this year (Ohio State, among others).  Hence the
    intimidation factor will be minimal.  Lastly realize that the
    oddsmakers have instilled UNC as a relatively slight favorite - only
    7.5 points.
    
    Mark my words, this game will be close, and UNC will be fortunate to
    escape.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3811Whether it's a choke or not is irrelevant.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 19 1992 13:387
    I'll agree with you Mr. Ross - UNC *should* win.  All I'm saying is
    they might not.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3812CSCOA1::ROLLINS_RThu Mar 19 1992 13:394
	I don't think ACChris is saying that it wouldn't be a choke,
	just that he thinks that is a real possibility.

	HTH.
17.3813DUGROS::ROSSParty on, MrTThu Mar 19 1992 13:424
    Chris,
    
    A loss today would be classified as a "choke" right?   Let's get it
    on the record.
17.3814Can't wait for this one...SHALOT::MEDVIDDancing in the deepest oceansThu Mar 19 1992 13:486
    Please list the MAC giant killers and the goliaths they have felled.
    
    And remember you are dealing with a MAC vet here.
    
    	--dan'l
    	  
17.3815CAMONE::WAYSon House RULES!Thu Mar 19 1992 14:0015
Man, it's getting REALLY deep in here....


This is what I call Pre-Spin Warmup.  ACC Chris is making sure that those
ball bearings are nice and lubed JUST in case Dean-o pulls his inevitable
choke-a-rama.

On the other hand, if Dean-o wins, Chris will be telling us he told us
so, and how great Dean-o is....


Giant killer indeed!


'Saw
17.3816Opponent has something to say about whether it's a "choke" ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 19 1992 14:0318
    Ball State advanced to Sweet 16 lasted year, no?  Didn't they almost
    knock off UNLV the year before that?  
    
    If Carolina loses whether it's a "choke" or not really means absolutely
    nothing to me.  A loss is a loss.  I will be interested in Dean's
    strategy though.  Carolina's prep for the Florida State game last
    Saturday was, IMO, outstanding.  The 1-3-1 zone (something very rarely
    used by Dean) was extremely effective, and Phelps did a great job of
    controlling the pace of the game.   But Miami apparently likes to slow
    tempo and work for the 3-point shot.  A zone could play right into
    their hands.  Unfortunately Carolina has shown time-and-time again that
    it's not a quick team, and when we play pressure man-to-man the
    opponent invariably gets free for an open 3-point shot.
    
    Like I said, a terrible matchup problem for UNC.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3817New heights of double reverse sand bagging - even Lou Holtz isn't this badTNPUBS::MCCULLOUGHLindsey's gonna be a sister!!!Thu Mar 19 1992 14:040
17.3818IU "loses" -72 to -70 ???SHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Thu Mar 19 1992 14:0616
17.3819See ??? I *told* you they shoulda gone Dancing !!! :-) :-)SHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Thu Mar 19 1992 14:1115
 Well, the Wahoos, resplendent in their rarely seen Orange road uniforms
 and with several of the underclassmen sporting fresh new skinheads, beat
 Villanova, 83-80, lasted night in an NIT first-round game out on the
 Philly Main Line.
 
 The Hoos had a 16 point lead at the half but Nova canned trey after trey
 in the 2nd half and the Hoos finally survived.   Bryant Stith had 29
 points and the 'Cats had no answer for Junior Burrough who had 22 and was
 nasty on the boards.
 
 I guess I can handle seeing Bryant Stith's career last a few more games.  
 As long as they're in it, might as well win it.   Good experience for the
 kiddies.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3820BSS::JCOTANCHThu Mar 19 1992 14:356
    Is Northern Iowa in the MAC?
    
    I remember them knocking off Missouri 2 or 3 years ago.
    
    
    Joe
17.3821Don't think soSHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Thu Mar 19 1992 14:3813
17.3822Pre-game spin control even better nowSHALOT::MEDVIDDancing in the deepest oceansThu Mar 19 1992 14:3815
>    Consider that the conference Miami (OH) is in (Mid-American) is long
>    known as_a NCAA Tourney giant-killer.  
    
    and then his supporting "fact" is...
    
>    Ball State advanced to Sweet 16 lasted year, no?  Didn't they almost
>    knock off UNLV the year before that?  
    
    Ball State beat Louisville to advance and "almost" beat UNLV. 
    Therefore, that makes the MAC a "long known NCAA Tourney giant-killer."
    
    Rollward.
    
    	--dan'l
    
17.3823BobHunt: welsh-cheat-con main is THRILLED by NITANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDailyAffirmation w/ CajunMainThu Mar 19 1992 14:4024
    >A loss is a loss.
    
    Queer words coming from a sandbagger so prone to pointing to Sweet16/
    Elite8/Final4 losses pridefully and proclaiming them proof of some
    form of greatness.
    
    re .3818
    
    Yo, cheat, it was good to see UVa playing in the prestigious NIT last
    night.  I say this cuz I know of joe lust for totally meaningless
    tournaments, and if nothing else the NIT is certainly that.
    
    As for my alleged sandbagging, let me point out that my negativity on
    Indiana has been borne out much more often than not, with me this year
    having predicted the Hoosiers would finish 3rd (they finished 2nd).
    
    Also let me cite the fack that any number of sources have corroborated
    what I said during the preseason, i.e., that Indiana is soft and shallow
    inside and must shoot the lights out a the basket and avoid foul trouble 
    to survive that patent deficiency, as has been demonstrated on several
    occassions (UCLA, Kaintuck, Michigan, Michigan State, Minnesota, etc.).
    
    MrT
    
17.3824We gotta have another IU-UNC matchup in our lifetime !!!SHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Thu Mar 19 1992 14:5537
17.3825CSCOA1::ROLLINS_RThu Mar 19 1992 14:596
	If Pete Carrill's teams can consistently stay within 3-4 points
	of teams generally seeded from 1-5 in the region, then how come
	Hall of Fame coaches aren't heavily favored when playing teams
	seeded in the 7-16 seeds ?  If Princeton can stay close with no
	talent, how come IU and UNC are always on the ropes even before
	the game starts ?
17.3826FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu Mar 19 1992 15:0315
    No matter what Carolina and Indiana do, if they make it to the Final
    Four, they will *NOT* get past the Minutemen.  :-)  You read it here
    first.
    
    Northern Iowa is not in the Mid America Conference but the Gateway
    Conference (or something like that).  Western Illinois is in there too. 
    A graduate school classmate of mine, Patty Viverito, is the
    Commissioner and was the first woman named to be a Commissioner of a
    men's and women's conference.
    
    MAC consists of Miami, Bowling Green, Ohio, Ball State, Western
    Michigan, Eastern Michigan, Central Michigan, Toledo and mumble. 
    Northern Illinois used to be in it.
    
    John
17.3827EMU had a nice little run in 91SHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Thu Mar 19 1992 15:1312
 Then the MAC did have a Sweet Sixteen team (Eastern Michigan) lasted year
 but they did not kill any giants on their way.   EMU was the No 12 seed
 and knocked off No 5 Mississippi State who had some serious first-Dance
 jitters.   Then they beat No 13 Penn State who had pulled the stunner on
 No 4 UCLA.
 
 And then they lost to Carolina and didn't kill any giants in that game. 
 That was the one where Snuff took exception to some physical play and
 walked right out on the court in front of a flabbergasted referee and
 pointed out the EMU offender.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3828ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYDailyAffirmation w/ CajunMainThu Mar 19 1992 15:1737
    No, *you* suck, Bob "Witch Hunt, cuz you are a welsh.
    
    You also don't know what you're talking about.  This season's
    perfomance has pretty much matched my expectations, with losses
    to UCLA and Kaintuck in the preconference, a split with Michigan,
    the only surprise being the sweep of the Buckeyes.
    
    As stated before, this team certainly does NOT have as much in its
    toolkit as did the '87 team.  Look at the acknowledged facts:
    
    1) Yes this team has more overall talent that the '87 squad.
    
    2) BUT, it doesn't have a true center, in '87 they had two guys
       who could play the middle (Garrett and Jadlow), with Garrett
       being a fine role player, that being block/change shots and
       bang the boards.
    
    3) BUT, the '87 team had a number of fine shooters, including maybe
       the best outside shooter in team history in Alford.
    
    4) BUT, the '87 team had a deep front-line with successful role
       players.  The '92 team has a 3-main front-line with only one
       player successfully fulfilling his role.  In '87 they had depth
       up front and plenty a players who could hit the boards and play
       the D.
    
    Indiana '92 is a small, poor shooting team.  They have a mediocre
    record against top competition.  They have a lot a talent but almost
    all of it is at the PG position (excluding Calbert and Alan, who's
    a raw frosh).
    
    They're tapped out.  
    
    MrT
    
    
    
17.3829More like "Gnat Killer" if you asked meSHALOT::MEDVIDDancing in the deepest oceansThu Mar 19 1992 15:5631
    Yes, in my haste to rush off to lunch, I forgot to point out that Ball
    State's run was in 90 tourney.  EMU's was last year.  Neither felled a
    giant.
    
    The best MAC finish prior to these teams was when Ohio University beat
    Southern Illinois at the buzzer of the 83 tourney and lost a second
    round game to Kentucky.
    
    Yeah, boy, that MAC is a giant killing conference all right.
    
    No matter how much sandbag sucking you do, Chris, if Carolina loses
    today it is a choke and I still can't hand the MAC a "giant killer"
    monicker because this will be the only giant they have ever kilt.
    
    Mac teams are:
    
    Ball State
    Bowling Green
    Central Michigan
    Eastern Michigan
    Kent State
    Miami (Ohio)
    Ohio 
    Toledo
    Western Michigan
    
    Northern Illinois dropped out in 85 to become a "major independent."
    
    	--dan'l
    
    	
17.3830DUGROS::ROSSParty on, MrTThu Mar 19 1992 16:2811
    I watched the first half of the UNC-Miami game at lunch at a local
    Hooters restaurant {yum! yum!}.  
    
    UNC led at the half by about 8... Montross had a dozen, mainly because
    he was six inches taller than any Miami player.  Miami kept it close
    for most of the half by burying 3 pointers, but a UNC run at the end
    built the lead up.  Hubert Davis wasn't shooting well.  Henrik Rodl
    was being used as a handicap, I guess - he started the game and did
    little, as usual.   
    
    The only hope Miami had for the second half was to play under control.
17.3831Carolina wins. BARELY.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 19 1992 17:3016
    Some may feel my predictions are idiotic, but I couldn't have been more
    accurate on the unc @ miami game if I could've peered into the future
    and simply reported on the play-by-play.  Miami shooting 3's.  Carolina
    looking slow.  The crowd solidly behind the 'Skins, with the refs of
    course following.  (Two *horrible* calls in the last 1:08 - one an
    inbound 5-second call that was more like 3.5, the other a 5 second call
    on Davis for not advancing toward the basket, although he clearly did
    on several occasions.)
    
    For the record, Carolina was up 1 with :38 seconds to go.  Miami had
    the ball.  George Lynch made a *huge* steal.  Davis made two (2) free
    throws.  (He shot 2-17 from the field, BTW.)  Miami misses a 3. 
    Gametime.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3832Dean gets "Heimliched" NEXT!CTHQ3::LEARYBobHunt,David Copperfield of ::SPORTSThu Mar 19 1992 17:321
    
17.3833Hubert was due for a bad game. Another though and it's 'adios'!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 19 1992 18:205
    BTW, Eric Montross played an outstanding game.  20+ points, around 12
    boards.  He had numerous putbacks on clanged Davis J's ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3834RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOGo Fordham Rams!Thu Mar 19 1992 18:517
    Whew,  Amazing that teh Hells, with two all-americans, were able to
    hold on against the vastly superior Miami of Ohio folks.  No wonder
    Dean is in the Hall of Fame.  What brilliance.  Go to the big man.
    
    And Hubert Davis wins the coveted "System Brick" award for game 1.
    
    JD
17.3835CAMONE::WAYSon House RULES!Thu Mar 19 1992 18:541
Goaliath slews David.....film @ 11
17.3836DUGROS::ROSSParty on, MrTThu Mar 19 1992 18:594
    Montross did have a good game (against much smaller competition)..
    the key for UNC is whether he can do it again or will he revert to 
    8 points, 6 boards.
    
17.3837They're for you; No, they're for youCSOA1::SIMPSON_TIn search of mythical kingsThu Mar 19 1992 20:438
	The talk from the Miami fans after the game, of course, was about how
they couldn't catch a break from the officials in the last 5 minutes (mixed in
with a lot of "we're proud of our team's effort", etc., of course).  Never 
ceases to amaze me how different officiating looks depending on who you want
to win.

tom
17.3838Randy Livingston in Carolina Blue? Cain only hope ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Mar 20 1992 14:0615
    Anybody catch the feature on The Big Easy's Randy Livingston last night
    on that show Diane Sawyer's on?  Interesting stuff ...
    
    His HS coach axed him what college he was going to and he replied 'Any
    one he wants to.', potentially indicating that North Carolina ain't
    outa the picture yet.  Kid is a good student and his mom is absolutely
    steadfast in her determination that Randy get a college degree.  (These
    factors would seem to reduce his chances of ending up at (-ugh-) LSU.)
    
    Stay tuned.  Carolina is goin' after him hard.  Have to see if we can
    break our string of failing to close the deal on top-flight talent. 
    (i.e. Billy Owens, Kenny Anderson, et al.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3839RAVEN1::B_ADAMSI'm too tough to tame!Fri Mar 20 1992 14:225
    
    	So did Fla State win yesterday???
    
    B.A.
    
17.3840FDCV07::KINGLebanon NH, the pits of the world!!!Fri Mar 20 1992 14:291
    Yes
17.3841SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesFri Mar 20 1992 14:3410
>Stay tuned.  Carolina is goin' after him hard.  Have to see if we can
>    break our string of failing to close the deal on top-flight talent. 
>    (i.e. Billy Owens, Kenny Anderson, et al.)
>    
>    
>    - ACC Chris
    
       So we go from the greatest recruiting class ever a couple of years
    ago to this?
                                   Denny
17.3842Fl St. will be hurting with that injury!WLDWST::RCARRUTHERSOrange mania..catch itFri Mar 20 1992 14:347
    RE- :1

          Yes....but they lost their point guard to a separated shoulder
    during the game.

                                                         Night Flier  ~~v~~
17.3843RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Mar 20 1992 14:516
    Anybody heard an injury report on Charlie Ward?  Last I heard he wasn't
    definitely out for the Saturday game, but a seperated shoulder?  Gonna
    be tough, but if anybody could do it, this kid could.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3844OuchSHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Fri Mar 20 1992 14:538
 Last I heard on Ward was that this morning's X-rays would help decide his
 availability for their next game.
 
 Betcha Bobby Bowden is worried, too.  Ward is supposed to be the Noles'
 starting quarterback come this fall and Bowden has been delaying spring
 practice waiting for Ward.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3845Another team bites the dust...RAVEN1::OGLESBYBlue HeavenSat Mar 21 1992 23:5510
    
        Another Sweet Sixteen,will the streak ever end ???
    UNC has over achieved already but if they make the final
    eight it would be a tremendous feat by DEAN and his young
    team.                        
    
         I'm not bragging but WEASELS I feel congradulations
    are in order sense none of you thought the Tarheels would
    get past an awesome Alabama team.
    
17.3846RE-1RAVEN1::OGLESBYBlue HeavenSun Mar 22 1992 00:015
       I may have messed up on some spelling SINCE I 
    was so excited about the Victory.   
    
    
     BIG "O"
17.3847RAVEN1::B_ADAMSI'm too tough to tame!Sun Mar 22 1992 00:137
    re-1,
    
    	How about "congratulations" as well....must have went to UNC!
    
    B.A.  :*)
    
    
17.3848I'm a ramblin wreck from Georgia Tech and a helluva engineerISLNDS::REEVESun Mar 22 1992 00:579
    YYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    We're INNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!  Sweet Sixteeeeeeennn! Awesome, baby! After
    being deprived of watching any of this, suddenly it's on and Forest is
    there and YESSSSSS it's good! So long Mr. major Miner. ACC is AWESOME!
    It takes more than .8 to urinate, bring on Memphis State! ACC= four in
    Final Four? It could happen. Freshman is fabulous!! Otherwise, things
    are normal here.
    
    GEETEE Chris
17.3849great game, but how about a reality check folksACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Sun Mar 22 1992 06:2715
    What an incredible ending to the USC-Ga Tech game. Especially after all
    the talk by the announcers how USC was finally going to get past the
    2nd round in the NCAA tournament. It really is better to be lucky than
    good.
    
    re: Final Four - I will be surprised if any ACC team other than Duke
    makes it. Sure Ga Tech won but how many miracles can they expect. UNC
    has the #1 seed Ohio State next in Lexington and Fla State would need
    to get by Indiana and then probably UCLA. I just don't see it
    happening. Enjoy the next week but if you truly believe 4 ACC teams
    will get to the Final 4 you are going to be one disappointed puppy
    after next weekends game.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
17.3850CTHQ2::LEARYBobHunt,David Copperfield of ::SPORTSMon Mar 23 1992 12:3011
    TCM,
    I don't think Chris really means it, just an understandable euphoric
    reaction to the Tech's win. 
    I'm not surprised UNC made the Final 16. I have 'em in my pool losing
    to OSU! Don't look good tho two of my Final Four picks (kansas and
    arizona) are gonzo.
    
    Go Dukies and IU.
    
    MikeL
    
17.3851ACC 8-1SHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Mon Mar 23 1992 12:4137
 Why should we congratulate Dean on making the Sweet Sixteen again ??? 
 
 Dean should be on his knees thanking the NCAA Selection Committee for
 giving him that unbelievably generous No 4 seed.   We said all along
 lasted week that it was a gift and that Snuff had a clear shot to the
 Sweet Sixteen.   And that's *exactly* what happened ...
 
 Their huge height advantage barely held off No 13 Miami (Ohio) and then
 Snuff threw a defensive wrinkle or two at an undisciplined Alabama team
 ... who were likewise a blowout loser in their conference tourney.   Talk
 to me when Snuff makes it without such blatant generosity.  Case closed.
 
 Oh, and Wake Forest sure looked good.  Not.   Perhaps next time the brain
 dead, Tobacco Road-infected committee can remember that an 8-8 conference
 team (Virginia) is in fact better than a 7-9 team ... a team that ended
 its late-season swoon with an awful game against a weak Louisville.
 
 Hats off to Georgia Tech and especially James Forrest ... That's a shot
 that defines a player's career.   Nothing but ripcord.  Forever frozen in
 time.   And Florida State had the horses to withstand Georgetown.  They're
 for real ... but Charlie Ward's injury might eventually doom them this
 year.   Geez, they'll be really scary nexted time around.   Pre-season top
 pick in the ACC for '93 ???
 
 Duke's on a big time roll.   Iowa threw everything at them and had them
 rattled for a brief moment.  But Krzyzewski had the self-discipline to
 call his one and only timeout and that was it.  Duke came back with their
 defensive screws tightened down and the Hawkeyes were cooked.   Dr Tom
 Davis didn't do himself any favors by pissing and moaning afterwards about
 the pro-Duke crowd but they did have their usual positive effect on the
 Dookies.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  And now Roy Williams has the final chapter in his Dean Smith Wannabe
 Scrapbook.   The Snuffer has indeed taught him *everything* he knows.  So
 much for the vaunted Big Eight.
17.3852Dean's position is not a desirable one...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Mar 23 1992 13:1319
    Well, I think you've got to give some credit to North Carolina for
    making it back this year.  Sure they were seeded #4, which requires no
    upsets to make it to the Sweet 16, but how many #5 seeds in the tourney 
    are better than UNC?  And if UNC had been seeded #5 in the same region 
    they'd still have had to play Alabama, and if they'd been seeded #6 
    they would have lucked into a matchup with East Tennessee State.  Plus, 
    as I mentioned before, this way they've got to beat Ohio State to get 
    to the Final 8 (which would be a fairly big upset) instead of Oklahoma 
    State.  The only worse situation they could have been placed in would 
    to have been #4 or #5 in the East region against Seton Hall/Missouri 
    with an impending matchup against Duke on the way.  Being #4/#5 in the 
    West (ended up as SW Lousiana/New Mexico St.) or Midwest (Cincinnati/
    Michigan St.-- current opponent UTEP) would have been easier situations 
    than what they end up with in the Southeast.  That's two out of three
    of the alternatives as preferable to what they ended up with...
    
    glenn
    
17.3853STRATA::CAPPELMon Mar 23 1992 13:1737
    To put Carolina's Sweet 16 streak in proper perspective, these are the 
    games that they have won during the streak through 1990.  Sure looks like 
    an easy road as they were heavily favored in every game except for 1990
    when they underachieved miserably during the regular season to finish
    at a #8 seed andwere lucky to be in the same bracket as the Dean Smith
    of the Midwest(Tubbs) who is noted for his early round exits....
    
    81: NC #2 Seed
    		First game bye
    		# 10 Pitt
    82: NC #1 Seed
    		First game bye
    		# 9 James Madison
    83: NC #2 Seed                                                  
    		First game bye
    		#10 James Madison
    84: NC #1 Seed
    		First game bye
    		#8 Temple
    85: NC #2 Seed
    		#15 Middle Tenn. State
    		#7  Notre Dame
    86: NC #3 Seed
		#14 Utah
    		#6  Alabama Birmingham
    87: NC #1 Seed
    		#16 Penn
    		#9  Michigan
    88: NC #2 Seed
    		#15 North Texas
    		#10 Loyola Marymount
    89: NC #2 Seed
    		#15 Southern BR(who???)
    		#7  UCLA
    90: NC #8 Seed
    		#9 SW Missouri St
    		#1 Oklahoma
17.3854MiscellaneousRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 23 1992 13:3416
    Simply unbelievable and incomprehensible 'W' for the Jackets.  WOW!!!!
    Shots like that are, well, what the NCAA Tournament is all about, for
    better or worse.  (The worse only applies if you happen to be a USC 
    fan ...)
    
    Gotta agree that the ACC will probably only have one (1) team in the
    Final 4 - DUKE.  No way is anybody stopping them.  Florida State would
    have a decent shot, but bad luck (Charlie Ward) works against them in a
    big way.  Georgia Tech actually has a decent shot with Arkansas and
    Kansas out, but this team has been so streaky this year I'd hate to lay
    my hard earned money on 'em.  Carolina?  Well we're playing our best
    basketball of the season right now (especially defensively) but Ohio
    State is too.  I'm sure OSU will be a big favorite.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3855STRATA::CAPPELMon Mar 23 1992 13:3914
    
    I do however want to note that Dean has this team playing defense
    again.  If they play with this intensity against OSU than they have
    a chance at the upset.  However NC will have to cut down on the 
    turnovers and offensive mistakes(something they haven't done in their 
    last 10-12 games).  I believe they had 26 or 27 turnovers against
    Alabama which will mean a blowout if they do that against OSU.
    
    Much more impressive than Dean's Sweet 16 streak is Coach K's Final
    Four streak, especially if he makes it again this year....
    
    Cap
    
    
17.3856RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOABD - Anybody But Duke!Mon Mar 23 1992 13:4113
    ACC Final Four - I'd rather see the Heels than Duke.  I'm totally sick
    of Duke.  By far the most pampered team I've ever seen by the refs. 
    They get away with murder inside, but the whistle blows whenever anyone
    sneezes near them.  I'm getting sick of Laetner too.  I'd love to see
    Duke win, and he be the reason.   He put on a few good acts the other
    day.  He's a darn good player, but I think his choir boy looks make the
    refs overlook his hacks.
    
    RE:  SNuffy Smif
    
    As I saw all the gushing over the Snuffer passing Wooden on the
    all-time list, and the gushing over another Sweet 16, all I could think
    was how Snuff's ONE title sticks out like a JOhn Holmes woodie.  
17.3857RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 23 1992 13:429
    re: .3855 (Cap)
    
    Agreed.  Carolina must cut down on the turnovers.  Also CoachK's Final
    4 streak is not only more impressive than Dean's Sweet 16, but more
    impressive than *ANY* college coaching achievement this side of John
    Wooden.  (And that includes Knights 3 Titles, BTW.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3858BSS::JCOTANCHMon Mar 23 1992 14:1517
    Dena's Sweet 16 streak ain't so impressive after seeing that he needed
    only 1 win thru '84 to reach the round of 16.
    
    I don't think FSU matches up very well with IU because the Noles seem
    to have problems with good half-court teams.  They trailed Georgetown
    most of the way before coming on late.  Hey Mr. Kennedy, here's a
    hint: don't stay in a zone defense if IU's hot from the outside.  
    
    I'm sure there will be a plentiful following of IU fans in Albuquerque
    - they're kind of like the Nebraska fans in football.  When I was at
    the '89 West Regionals in Denver IU by far had the most fans there.
    
    One good going for Tech in this tournament (besides 2 wins) is they're
    no stranger to coming from behind.
    
    
    Joe
17.3859Dean's right about thatSHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Mon Mar 23 1992 14:265
 To Dean's credit, he downplays the overall number of wins versus Wooden
 thing ... He himself admitted that Wooden's 10 titles are much more
 impressive than his 49 wins.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3860Dean is no ordinary coach.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Mar 23 1992 14:296
    Good commentary in Friday's USA Today on Dean.  Basically pointing how
    he's unbelievably humble and steadfastly refuses to take credit for
    anything.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3861It's blatant reverse psychology to draw attention upon himself...SASE::SZABOThe TicketmasterMon Mar 23 1992 14:321
    
17.3862NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Mar 23 1992 14:3512
          
    I don't see any real need to criticize Dean's Sweet 16 streak, because,
    while impressive if extracted from his record and propped up by its
    lonesome, it's still a statistical anomaly, a virtual "wow, but who 
    cares?".  What it says is that Dean has done a fantastic job of avoiding 
    the early-round upset against lesser teams.  That's wonderful, but it 
    ranks way down on the list of priorities of most college hoops fans.  
    Sort of like Nebraska getting an invite to all those New Year's Day bowl 
    games year after year...
    
    glenn
    
17.3863must be itANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Mar 23 1992 16:466
    >he's unbelievably humble and steadfastly refuses to take credit
    >for anything.
    
    So, it's another Dean Smif' after whom the building was named?
    
    MrT
17.3864CAMONE::WAYDoin' the Vatican RagMon Mar 23 1992 16:5910
>    >he's unbelievably humble and steadfastly refuses to take credit
>    >for anything.
>    
>    So, it's another Dean Smif' after whom the building was named?
    
Yeah, and he also never mentions that he has this nasty habit of not
chewing his food properly and choking on it....


'Saw
17.3865SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Mon Mar 23 1992 18:1626
    
    
    	I was a little surprised to see Ga Tech advance.  I was also more 
    than delited to see Springfield native Travis Best hit a key shot down
    the stretch to notch the win against Houston.  
    
    	Tech is getting good play from its freshman..first Best hits the
    key shot to lock up #1, then Forrest (another freshman) hits the winner
    to lock up #2.
    
    	As far as the bracketing goes, Tech is in a good position to make
    the Final Four if they can beat the inconsistency bug.
    
    	As for Forrest's shot, I was a little surprised that the network
    guys never commented on the fact that if this situation arose 2 years
    ago, Tech might be on their way home.  I believe last year was the
    first year that the NCAA went to a clock with tenths of a second
    displayed.  Given the old clock, the buzzer might of sounded on the
    out-of-bounds ball off Berry's foot.
    
    	Chalk up another good rule change for the NCAA...at least if you're
    a Tech fan!
    
    
    								bill..g.
    
17.3866Wahoos still playing; Wake on golf linksSHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Tue Mar 24 1992 03:5611
 Virginia 77, Tennessee 52.   Blew 'em out.   On to the NIT quarterfinals. 
 Nexted one will most definitely be on the road as the Women's East Regions
 are in C'ville this weekend.
 
 Let's see ... That's wins over a .500+ Big East team and now an SEC team. 
 Meanwhile, Wake lost badly to a third-rate Metro team over in that "other"
 tournament.   Yeah, I cain see why they got the invite.
 
                    New motto is ... "In It To Win It"
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3867he's in his element nowANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Mar 24 1992 11:0719
    >New motto is: "In it to win it."
    
    My oh my how THRILLED I aim to see Bob doing the rah-rah for his
    squad in the NIT.  Cuz the question is, "win what, Bob?"
    
    But I cain see the logic he's pumping like a drunk who keeps tossing
    back a empty bottle a Mad Dog 20-20: Weaned on a totallly meaningless
    made-for-TV money-grubbing post-season pre-tourney tournament 
    spectacle, why not something even more void a meaning and held on a
    grander, national scale?
    
    What's that I hear?  Well, if *that's * true, and the pre-spectacle
    spectacle is actually a weekend conference championship regular season,
    then we must regard the other two and a half months as a exhibition 
    season.
    
    THRILLING.
    
    MrT
17.3868It has to be said ...EARRTH::BROOKSRebel Without A Pause ...Tue Mar 24 1992 12:2830
    
re .3851
    

> Their huge height advantage barely held off No 13 Miami (Ohio) and then
> Snuff threw a defensive wrinkle or two at an undisciplined Alabama team
 
    Uh, Bob are you saying that Dean deviated from The System ???
    
    Sounds like positive development - are you going to begrudge 'Smif ?

> Hats off to Georgia Tech and especially James Forrest ... That's a shot
> that defines a player's career. 
    
    Yeah, but you have to feel for USC - that *hurts* ....
    
>   And Florida State had the horses to withstand Georgetown.
    
    More like, they stayed close enough till Mourning fouled out, and
    Thompson's decision to go to a slow-down game was a bad move ...
    
    FSU is good, but their run will end next game. Maybe next year - how
    many seniors do they have ?

> P.S.  And now Roy Williams has the final chapter in his Dean Smith Wannabe
> Scrapbook.   The Snuffer has indeed taught him *everything* he knows. 
    
    My my .. how quickly we leave the bandwagon - Roy goes from "Bright
    Hope For the Future", and "The Man Smith Wants To Be - The System with
    Flexibilit" ... to "'Smif Jr" ..... :-)
17.3869ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Mar 24 1992 12:3612
    I rate the FSU vs Indiana game a tossup.  Widebodies vs a disciplined
    team that MUST box-out like crazy and shoot from the perimeter to win.
    
    A key factor is whether the Hoosiers cain git FSU in foul trouble
    driving to the hoop.  
    
    Should be a exciting game.  It's only a blowout if FSU's athleticism
    intimidates IU.  I don't think the Hoosiers cain realistically blow out
    the 2nd best team from the best conference on a neutral floor, but I'd
    dearly love to see just that.
    
    MrT
17.3870Thrilled ??? Not. Admirable effort ??? Yes.SHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Tue Mar 24 1992 12:417
 Hey, I ain't at all *THRILLED* that the Wahoos are in the NIT.  I've been
 bitching long and hard about it.   But there ain't a helluva lot anyone
 can or should do about it ... so might as well win the dang thang.
 
 Geez, this ain't rocket science, is it Po' ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.38719-7 ain't *positive* development, DocSHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Tue Mar 24 1992 12:4713
17.3872ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Mar 24 1992 12:489
    It ain't rocket science to understand how committed joe are to 
    totally meaningless made-for-TV money-grubbing spectacles, so
    we congratulate you on joe team's stirring performance in the
    legendary NIT.  
    
    Btw, women's hoops notwithstanding (YAWN), when are you going to
    make good on joe debt to me.
    
    MrT
17.3873Challenge him again, you ingrate!SHALOT::MEDVIDDancing in the deepest oceansTue Mar 24 1992 13:355
    Why not make another bet with him, T, on Virginia winning the whole
    thaing?  Or are you too skeert Bob will honor it in a way you just
    ain't smart enough to figure out?
    
    	--dan'l
17.3874now way JoseANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Mar 24 1992 13:4110
    I'm under orders from Dr. Inga Odegaard, PhD Pyschology, Assistant
    Director, Land of 10,000 Treatment Centers, to NOT enter into any
    more sleazy bets with or to even speak to cheaters (a rule that I 
    aim breaking in a attempt to get through to this cheater in order
    to maintain his integrity).
    
    No more bets, enough cheating has taken place already.  Where is the
    honesty and integrity in this once great file?
    
    MrT
17.3875RUGBY1::wayWrap them knees, boy!Tue Mar 24 1992 13:5717
Oh, it's here alright....

Bob honored his bet "to the letter" of the law...


Was their mischief in his heart when he did it that way?  Could be, could
be......

But that p-name existed for the entire week, on that account...


Live and learn, MrT...


'Saw

PS  Give Inge a kiss for me...8^)_
17.3876SHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Tue Mar 24 1992 14:236
17.3877True ColorsSHALOT::MEDVIDDancing in the deepest oceansTue Mar 24 1992 15:0712
    Who are you, MrT, to speak a integrity?  Change a couple a those
    letters and you get "ingrate" which is just what you is.  But I won't
    go into any details about how you have yet to thank me for sending you
    that cassette tape outa the goodness o my heart and have yet to receive
    as much as a acknowledgement that you even got it let alone a thank
    you.
    
    At least Hawk and the Cathmeister had good mums ta teach 'em manners
    and said "thanks" when I did the same for them...and I even charged
    them for postage and handling.
    	
    	--dan'l
17.3878ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Mar 24 1992 15:1216
    Her name's *Inga* buddy.
    
    And if you lay a keen eye you will find that Bob "Witch" Hunt
    most certainly did NOT abide by his own terms and conditions.
    
    Sad.
    
    >It went and joined a "small software company".
    
    What a crapulous diversionary crooked analogy this is!  You wanna
    compare a tragic miscommunication that hurt nobody with willful
    breach a contract?!
    
    Even sadder.  I aim ashamed a you, BobHunt.
    
    MrT
17.3879I had a GREAT teacherSHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Tue Mar 24 1992 15:415
17.3880My 4-year old's got better manners than MrT.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportTue Mar 24 1992 16:108
    I hear ya on the ingrate thing, dan'l.  Why, I once sent MrT a
    brand-spankin' copy of 'Carolina Blue' and didn't even here a peep back
    from him, let alone a manly and polite 'Thank You'.
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3881RUGBY1::wayWrap them knees, boy!Tue Mar 24 1992 17:2723
re IngA:

	Oh, kinda like the old Jimmy Durante song:  Inga Dinga Doo


re Po':

	The Master.  Like Master Po' from the old Kung Fu show...


re Manners:

	Please and Thank You are a couple of words, which, if used more,
	would make the world a nicer place, and make more people smile.


re The Bet:

	Sounds like someone has been hoisted by their own petard....



'Saw
17.3882Anybody know if Ward is definitely OUT?RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportTue Mar 24 1992 17:5613
    re: IU vs. FSU
    
    MrT is correct to point out that the Seminoles are *not* devoid of huge
    studly inside players.  They can get big in a hurry, and may have to if
    they want to beat Indiana.  Douglas Edwards is a talent, and Dobard is
    wide, and Reed is a 7-footer.
    
    Still, there bread-and-butter has been the 3-guard lineup, which is
    something they can't do without Charlie Ward.  HUGE break for the
    Hoosiers having him out.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3883like a virtuoso vs. a kid beating a toy drumANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Mar 24 1992 18:0728
    What pieces me off about Bob "Witch" Hunt's cheating is not that
    he cheated (after his run with the grid 'Hoos last year we all 
    realize how low he cain stoop - I knew he would cheat me); what 
    keeled me is that he didn't even have the imagination, creativity,
    or class to even put a ounce a artifice in it.  
    
    He just reneged.  Cheated.  Welshed.
    
    Unlike the high jinks seen from ACCrook, the scam was void a 
    intellectual content and/or humor.
    
    re: Thank Yous
    
    Shaddap Crockmeister.  I tolt' you either in here or in mail that
    I felt my home had been violated by the appearance a this hate mail
    and that I suffered a hemmorhoid after trying to wipe my ace with
    that heavy bond newsprint.
    
    As for you, dan'l, I've sent and received so many mails lately (rote
    drafts y'know) that only a couple daze ago it struck me that perhaps
    I didn't send a thank you note to thank you and I was gonna axe if 
    if I sent a thank you but apparently I didn't so thank you.
    
    There.
    
    Ward'll play.  Kennedy is being coy about it which means he's sandbagging.
    
    MrT
17.3884RUGBY1::wayWrap them knees, boy!Tue Mar 24 1992 18:1728
>    What pieces me off about Bob "Witch" Hunt's cheating is not that
>    he cheated (after his run with the grid 'Hoos last year we all 
>    realize how low he cain stoop - I knew he would cheat me); what 
>    keeled me is that he didn't even have the imagination, creativity,
>    or class to even put a ounce a artifice in it.  
  

Bob had a lot of creativity.  He took advantage of a newer technology, and
yet still fulfilled the terms of the bet.   His p-name was the same everytime
he noted from that node.

I could, if anyone wishes, go back and extract all of Bob's notes from that
node for that week and post them.  I'd need the node name (SNDCRL?) and
could post the headers and we would see if the terms of the bet were indeed
fulfilled...


See the difference is ACC Chris (poor POSSESSED ACC Chris) ran a crooked 
contest by picking Dan before the contest note ever went in....  But he
was outta his haid...

Bob didn't do anything wrong....


Please MrT, talk it over again with Dr Ingot....


'Saw
17.3885ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Mar 24 1992 18:2310
    Ain't talking anything over with Dr. Inga.  Bob "Witch" Hunt 
    has failed to honor the explicit terms a the wager and therefore
    he is a CHEAT and a WELSH and a SCOUNDREL and not even particularly
    good at it but instead very UNSKEELED at it.
    
    Don't bother pulling the notes.  I'm aware of the node name thing,
    but that doesn't matter.  He violated the terms and conditions a
    the bet and he must pay up and in full and NOW.
    
    MrT
17.3886Only needed 2 guards in December, remember ???SHALOT::HUNTGo Lady 'Hoos !!!Tue Mar 24 1992 18:2324
17.3887deja vuFRETZ::HEISERmaranathaTue Mar 24 1992 18:241
    where have I seen this Whine Festival before?
17.3888Bob Heiser disappoints Poor MrT (again)ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Mar 24 1992 18:275
    So, Mr. Theism, now it's ok to rob innocent sports fans in this
    file?  I'd a thought that you'd be the one clear-minded super-
    ethical right-thinking main who'd be in my corner on this Mike.
    
    Poor MrT
17.3889RUGBY1::wayWrap them knees, boy!Tue Mar 24 1992 18:3914
Well, 

I have to say one thing.  I didn't see the terms of the bet.  I mean, if they
are in here, I probably missed them when I was at training.

For my own edification, would someone repost the terms of the bet so that
I might make in informed conclusion.


Thanks,
'Saw


PS  MrT, you are in rare form these days and you have me really rollward...
17.3890Time to play "Let's Make A Deal", Po' ???SHALOT::HUNTSing Doo Wah Diddy ...Tue Mar 24 1992 18:4211
 You wanna talk out-of-court settlement, Po' ???   
 
 Remember that "vote" you ran on /Roachy-Poachy's p-name scam a coupla
 months ago ???  I steel have that rather tasty leetle piece of electronic
 correspondence you sent me "imploring" me to examine the issue and cast an
 appropriate vote.   I think you mentioned something about joining a canine
 acting troupe, if I recall correctly.
 
 Wanna think things over and get back to me ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3891ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Mar 24 1992 18:446
    So, Frank, you admit you've been mislead by that ingrate Bob 
    "Witch" Hunt.  I'd say "ha ha ha" except I'm not in a position
    to do that cuz I've been SCREWED by him and lemme tale ya it
    HURTS.  Deep inside.
    
    MrT
17.3892I now understand that you cain't be trustedANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Mar 24 1992 18:4912
    re .3890
    
    Lobbying is a appropriate activity and anybody cain fake a mail
    message (just axe ACCrook, he knows).
    
    No, what should happen is you should pay the damned bet, Bob "Witch"
    Hunt.  In full and starting now and for the next week fulfilling 
    the minimums set forth.
    
    Or... there should be a trial by a panel a joe peers.  
    
    MrT
17.3893Has the Godfather heard about this yet!NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Mar 24 1992 18:5659
17.3894just a_ideaHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelTue Mar 24 1992 18:587
What this dang thang needs is a_elected body o' control. Something like

	The Loyal Bored for Wagering Welshing and Who_won_what.

Elect a new batch every time domain and refer said sad matters to 'em.

TTom
17.3895This is great!SHALOT::MEDVIDDancing in the deepest oceansTue Mar 24 1992 19:098
    T: you is welcome.  Hope that tape was The Cure for your wintery blues.
    
    Bob:
    
    
    Post the mail message.  He's batin' ya!  
    
    	--dan'l
17.3896Not again...ROYALT::ASHEWe finally got a piece of the pie...Tue Mar 24 1992 19:091
    Uh oh... 
17.3897PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollTue Mar 24 1992 19:123
    'Saw, maybe we out to start enforcing that policy against betting, even
    if it isn't for money.  That way we won't have to read all of this
    drivel and can get back to discussing sports.
17.3898What to do, what to do ???SHALOT::HUNTSing Doo Wah Diddy ...Tue Mar 24 1992 19:1218
 I entered the required payoff p-name string on Monday 16-Mar-1992 in the
 personal profile section of the Notes notebook I use for the SCNDRL::HUNT
 account and then flew the payoff for five (5) consecutive days ending on
 Friday 20-Mar-1992 without altering it.   The p-name string was spelled
 accurately, capitalized correctly and punctuated properly.
 
 That's the problem with the legal system in this country ... All somebody
 has to do is *WHINE* loud enough and often enough and sooner or later, the
 sympathy vote swings their way ... whitewashing the FACT that said whiner
 didn't do a very good job of tying up his loose ends prior to flinging
 himself off his cliff.
 
 I've received two mail messages to date ... One said it was paid in full
 and end of story.  The other thought it was devilishly clever (and said
 that Po' Po' deserved said devilry) but that it violated the "spirit" of
 the bet.   Not much to conclude on that end.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3899Beat the DevilANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Mar 24 1992 19:2419
    dan'l actually I kinda lost track a that tape.  Undertand, I got
    three boys (7, 4, 1; blond, brown, & redhaid; half Iro-Americain
    half Francais) so we got Legos baseball cards GI Joes Hot Wheels
    Nintendo games and, yes, cassettes laying all about the house and
    I aim afraid that after I unpacked the tape it slid somewhere in
    the stream and the past few days I've been picking up tapes all
    over the house lookin' at 'em to see if its the new Cure cuz I wanna
    hear it myself you did label it didn't ya?
    
    re: Waugamain's reprise
    
    Purty damning, I'd say.  Let's all just realize that Bob "Witch" Hunt
    cain now safely regarded as in the same credibility category as 
    TURBO::CNTRL and RHETT::KNORR... 
    
    Sad.  A once great noter has fallen down and his face is planted
    squarely 6 inches deep in the mud.
    
    MrT
17.3900Po Mr T, never had a dinnerFRETZ::HEISERmaranathaTue Mar 24 1992 19:325
    MrT, sorry for asking for sources when I knew you didn't have any.
    
    BTW - the J card is almost done.  Tapes go in the mail on Friday.
    
    Mike
17.3901CAMONE::WAYWrap them knees, boy!Tue Mar 24 1992 19:4860
From what I read in the bet, it said that the p-string would be worn
in this notes file only.  As in, "If I'm in the HotRods files, or WWF-Wrasslin,
I can fly another p-name"....


Having seen this, my opinion is this:


	Bob complied with the letter of the law.  He flew his p-name
	on a node which he used, and kept it that way ALL week.
	He used it noting in here.

	Nothing was ever said about him having to post the p-name
	on ALL nodes accessing sports.  There is some precident
	for noters using more than one node -- I myself do it,
	using xnotes and note on rugby1 and cam.

	
	However, in as much as MrT, angelic Irish face beaming with
	anticipated victory, had expectations of seeing nothing but
	his chosen p-string all week, there was some expectations
	relating to the spirit of the bet....

	
	If I wager with you, and say I'll pay you five dollars if
	UCONN loses to Ohio States, you have an expectation that I
	will pay you with US Currency.  If I bring in some Bahamian
	dollars, I will have complied with the letter of the law,
	but not the spirit of the law.


So, for my opinion:

	Bob complied with the LETTER of the law.  It was a sweet,
	wonderfully creative method, and that should be applauded.
	A quick wit, a wry creative, technical mind took advantage
	of all that the opportunity afforded.

	In doing so, he didn't comply with the spirit of the bet,
	which caused MrT to again have to couch down with the svelte
	and lovely Dr Inga Odergarred, and fess up his sins from his
	strutting chest.


	I think that the bet can be considered payed, and I think that we
	need to have a little nod of sympathy to MrT to caress his
	bruised ego.


	Now, not that MrT would do the same, perhaps in the reverse
	situation (why do I see MrT jumping up and down saying "I got him,
	I got him, I got him were he in Bob's shoes) but considering
	we're all magnanimous folks, and we don't want MrT having a
	breakdown, we should all give him a great big "Awwwww"...


Now, enough of this foolishness....


'Saw
17.3902RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOABD - Anybody But Duke!Tue Mar 24 1992 21:578
    Mike H. -
    
    If you are still taking requests, send me a tape.  
    
    
    If not, I'll catch you on MTV.
    
    JD
17.3903pay up, "Witch," you been cold-bustedANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Mar 24 1992 22:1058
    Bob "Witch" Hunt in .3136
    
    >I'll wear a "Stop The ACC Tourney Now !!!" personal name for one 
    >solid week.
    
    The same would-be bad contract artist in .3142
    
    >Yep, if I lose, I wear the p-name for a week... I'll wear the p-name
    >for a week.
    
    Now, at this point this guy, naive as he is in the negotiation of
    contracts, thinks I'll fall for the obvious gambit of not nailing him
    down on actually entering notes with said p-name being worn.
    
    Also, note that his fake guarantees say nothing limiting wearing said
    p_name on one node only.
    
    Then, worried that a cagey negotiator of contracts like MrT isn't
    buying into his jive-bull, says this in .3147
    
    >Shame.  This was an honest wager and I would have paid fair and
    >                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^                       ^^^^^^^^^
    >square had I lost.
     ^^^^^^
    
    Then, MrT's coup de grace in .3175 as negotiations drag on with 
    "Witch" proving most reluctant to take The Pledged
    
    >Regarding the payoff, I'll guarantee one full day with a twenty note 
    >minimum, on a work day, in all my usual haunts, including this place.
    
    Having said that, the terms are set even apart from The Pledge that
    the payoff must entail wearing the specified p_names for the specified
    period of time entering notes in the usual topics.  I.e., "Witch" is
    in.
    
    So, two things were abrogated, although the sleazy "Witch" claims only
    one.  
    
    1) He clearly violated The Pledge, and doesn't in his shamelessness
       doesn't even dispute that he did.  So that agreement he broke.  It
       was part of the bet and he broke that part and so welshed the bet.
    
       One cain't trot out the "spirit vs. the letter" drivel when it has
       been agreed in writing that paying in good faith, no tricks, is
      a responsibility, a condition, explicitly established.
    
    2) He violated the so-called "letter" of the bet too, seeing that I
       was careful to lay into the record of the negotiations that payment
       would entail wearing the p_name while entering notes in the
       appropriate topics.
    
    He's not even particularly a good cheat.  At least ACCrook's unstable
    operation had some dynamic to it, some daring, and he was bale to at
    least partially weather the storm of the trial, Dick Nixon/Ronald
    RayGun-style.
    
    MrT
17.3904FRETZ::HEISERmaranathaTue Mar 24 1992 22:381
    JD, send me your address and I'll put you in the queue.
17.3905Have Cigar Will SmokeSCNDRL::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now !!!Wed Mar 25 1992 13:3731
Reading .3903 in all its splendiferous pomposity has my thighs at maximum 
hyper-shuddery and a smile on my visage a mile wide.   

After all these many years of watching the undisputed emperor of 
irrita-shone and obfusca-shone work his wacky wily ways, I have finally 
succeeded in turning the tables on him.   Fifty-eight, count 'em, *58* 
delicious lines of nothing but distracted, rambling whining proving how he 
missed a w-i-d-e open loophole on a stupid p-name wager on the ACC 
Tournament.

I used to do slow burns everytime I'd foolishly get baited into one of his 
old sucker ratholes.  I'd be madly searching and extracting his old notes, 
cutting and pasting new rock-solid "proof" replies, pleading for support 
from my colleagues and all the while missing the whole point ... that is, 
the harder your effort to *prove* something, the sillier the issue becomes 
altogether.

Shoot, I remember once I spent an half an hour composing a meticulously 
detailed reply proving that I had never once said that Josef Stalin was 
born in the Ukraine !!!   Amazing.  He had me talking to myself.

So, now my "victory" is complete.   And to celebrate, I will now pay off 
the bet legally, completely and with *full* integrity.   For the next 5 
working days, I will *only* use the SCNDRL::HUNT account here in SPORTS 
with the agreed-upon payoff p-name string.   Next Wednesday, 1-Apr-1992 at 
8:00am EST, it's over.   I think that's a perfectly poetic day to end this 
incredibly amusing and deliciously satisfying "scam".

Thanks, Po'.

Bob Hunt
17.3906thought it had stoppedHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Mar 25 1992 13:504
But Bob, they have already stopped the ACC Tourney. Duke beat somebody a
week or so ago.

TTom
17.3907Factual update by TTom is right on the mark.RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportWed Mar 25 1992 13:549
    re: .3906
    
    Correct, TTom.  The ACC Tourney is over, wif Duke having soundly
    trounced my beloved Tar Heels.
    
    HTH, Bob.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3908WMOIS::RIEU_DSupport DCU Petition CandidatesWed Mar 25 1992 15:453
       Congrats to BobHunt. Not only does he pay the bet, but he does it
    TWICE!! 
                                Denny
17.3909Bob Hunt's a big guy - whatta guy!!!!! ;^)7389::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Wed Mar 25 1992 15:551
    
17.3910CAMONE::WAYWrap them knees, boy!Wed Mar 25 1992 16:0016
Bob Hunt:

	One of the most magnanimous, unselfish people I know.

	Paying the bet twice, in my humble opinion, is surely
	grounds for canonization.

	I mean, I'm even tempted to name my first born Bob.
	And for a middle name Virgil (as close to Virginia as
	I can get in a boy's name) would be fine....


Here, here!


'Saw
17.3911Anyone see the flick "What About Bob?"FRETZ::HEISERmaranathaWed Mar 25 1992 16:011
    
17.3912Hunt for Red Big10Bigot?HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Mar 25 1992 16:040
17.3913Spin Control that Bill Clinton'd be proud of ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 25 1992 16:1311
    Bob "Spin Doctor" Hunt's note has gotta rank as_a all-time classic.
    Never before has a noter cut his losses with so much Poetic Obfuscatory
    Prose (P.O.P.).
    
    Makes some of MrT's efforts seem downright lame!
    
    Haw haw!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.3914Hubie Davis Status?HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Mar 25 1992 16:207
What's the latest on Hubie Davis' injury?

Last I heard he was questionable with a_ankle injury. Heard Dean saying
that he wouldn't play unless he was 100% and Hubie saying he'd play.
Who's in charge, here?

TTom
17.3915Another belt-high fastball goin' downtown ...SCNDRL::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now !!!Wed Mar 25 1992 16:369
17.3916Certainly won't be at 100%, but I gotta believe he'll playRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Mar 25 1992 16:397
    Good question, TTom, but can anyone be surprised if Davis either can't
    play or plays ineffectively as the result of an injury?  Carolina's bad
    luck with injuries in the NCAA Tournament is certainly well documented
    by this noter ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3917RUGBY1::wayWrap them knees, boy!Wed Mar 25 1992 16:4912
Geez, I GOT a woody!

Another Dean choke on the horizon and the excuses are already starting
to flow in....

Okay, we'll start the pool here...  At what time of game is Dean gonna get
his T and get tossed....


'Saw


17.3918JARETH::YANKOWSKASOrioles in '92Wed Mar 25 1992 17:0010
    I usually stay out of these Dean Smith pissing contests, but...
    re .3917:
    
    >  Another Dean choke on the horizon
    
    UNC's next game is against the #1 seed in their region, Ohio State.
    You lose to the #1 seed, that's no "choke" in my book.
    
    
    py
17.3919TNPUBS::MCCULLOUGHLindsey's gonna be a sister!!!Wed Mar 25 1992 17:035
Monday, 9:45 AM  

This didn't work in the "Just ask Jake" pool, so I thought I would reuse it. 8^)

BTW - UNC will lost to OSU
17.3920CAMONE::WAYWrap them knees, boy!Wed Mar 25 1992 17:044
Right, but the excuses are already pouring in...


'Saw
17.3921I see excuses on both sides ...LUNER::BROOKSFlutie &gt; Kosar &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; BristerWed Mar 25 1992 17:121
    
17.3922break up the Maize and Blue now!!!! CNTROL::CHILDSABD except UNCWed Mar 25 1992 18:0216
 I think UNC stands a good chance of beating of OSU. I think back to the goon
 tatic used against Duke and feel if they try ther same stuff with Funderburke
 he'll probably explode and get his butt tossed. This would pretty much open up
 the paint for the Heels as Robinson is slower than Montross if that's possible.

 As for strutin' the conference gig I recall a certain ACCer taking pride in
 Duke last year.....

 Right now I'm putting my money with Walton's pick Michigan. They looked 
 unbeatable last sunday. Webber supposedly spent last saturday nite after
 practice watching the 1989 run by Michigan. After watching he didn't want
 to talk to noone and claimed he was as focused as he'll ever be. Then he
 throws down 31 points and clears 17 boards..yikes!!

 mike
17.3923Face, the final frontier...ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Mar 25 1992 18:0835
    >I have finally turned the tables... delicious victory.
    
    Boy you sound like Bill Clinton saying how satisfied he is to have
    lost Connecticut, and it is *I* who enjoy a delicious victory here
    cuz my ultimate goal is always to corner a noted reverse-sandbagger
    into spin control after having suffered from my deft skeel at
    reverse-bad-contracting.
    
    I was fully aware of the possiblity of joe wearing the promised
    p_name on a daid account, or even on a tee shirt under a dress shirt
    for that matter.  This is why I not only laid into the record the
    requirement that notes must be actively entered in the proper topics
    in this file, but also that you take the pledge as a integral component
    of the wager.
     
    You got nailed on both, I lured you in and you are now flopping (albeit
    happily) on my poop deck having swallowed my ruse hook, line and
    sinker.  [sunk]
    
    Now you have two choices, either quite satisfying to me:
    
    1) You cain go off in a huff and break yet another promise and continue
       welshing the debt, or
    
    2) You cain pay off the bet after having first been reverse-hoodwinked.
    
    Add the fack that my having won the bet in the first place, and what
    you have is cheery cherry on top of my funday sundae!
    
    You lost the best.  You lost the mindgame.  You lost the argument.  And
    you helped me once again demonstrate that NOBODY CHEATS MrT !!
    
    Pay the damned bet, it's your best way out.
    
    MrT
17.3924SHALOT::MEDVIDDancing in the deepest oceansWed Mar 25 1992 18:361
    
17.3925Go for triple digits, Po' !!!!SCNDRL::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now !!!Wed Mar 25 1992 19:083
58 + 35 = 93 lines.

Bob Hunt
17.3926it was a double-reverse tomahawk slam-jam a YOUANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Mar 25 1992 19:405
    A would be arsonist gets burned by a brave firefighter, a caught
    contrite cheater rolls our spin control, MrT as always gets paid,
    and he's counting.
    
    MrT
17.3927NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 25 1992 19:519
    I don't know who burned whom, but I'm still rollward over that "I will
    not pull a cheaty /Don scam-- I will be a classy dude and not a
    scumbag" pledge.  That was worth magnitudes more than the technical
    legalities garbage.  And poor Roachy-Poachy-Main's not even here to
    defend himself...
    
    glenn
    
17.3928Po', Po', He's Our Man. If He Cain't Do It, Nobody Cain !!!SCNDRL::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now !!!Wed Mar 25 1992 20:377
That was a great line, Glenn.

93 + 5 = 98

C'mon, Po', you can do it.  Two more lines and you'll hit triple figures.

Bob Hunt
17.3929better it's done behind poor /Roachy's backANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Mar 26 1992 11:454
    Go ahid and control the spin to save face, Bob "Witch" Hunt, but
    you got double-reversed by the expert.  Keep up the p_name please.
    
    F. Lee Shagnasty (le vanqeur)
17.3930CAMONE::WAYGoob a loogieThu Mar 26 1992 12:104
Yawn....



17.3931Hoops news ...SCNDRL::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now !!!Thu Mar 26 1992 13:4535
The local Tar Heel rag is getting ready for recruiting season already with 
a big spread in this morning's edition about a high school *junior* who's 
turning some serious heads ... 

File this name away ... Jerry Stackhouse, 6-6, 215 lbs from Kinston, North 
Carolina.   Kinston plays West Charlotte this weekend for the state title.

Stackhouse is the first junior in NC history to make the Parade 
All-American team.   That says a helluva lot when you realize that David 
Thompson, Michael Jordan, James Worthy, Sleepy Floyd, Brad Daugherty, and 
Danny Manning among others all went to high school in NC.

Stackhouse wants to make his decision during the early signing period in 
November this fall.   He's already scored 880 on the SAT and he lists Duke, 
Carolina, Wake, Virginia, NC State, and Fla State as his choices.   Walt 
Williams, whom nobody has ever heard of, is his idol and he wears Williams' 
No. 42 jersey.

And Dean has had some great quotes all week long ... Said that he recruited 
Jimmy Jackson but didn't like him from the very start 'cause he dribbled 
'tween his legs everytime he got the ball.  Snuff said he would have been 
able to cure him of the habit.

Snuff also said that he'll never believe another player who says he's okay 
when he's not.   Hubie Davis (ankle) apparently pleaded to go back into the 
'Bama game and Snuff says he gave in to him against his own hesitations.

Snuff also blasted the NCAA for the 10:10pm start of tonight's Duke-Seton 
Hall game.   Way too late but the game's a slave to the tube.   He's right 
on this, of course, but there ain't nothing anybody's gonna do.   He also 
took some shots at CBS for showing too many beer spots on the weekend 
afternoon telecasts ... Says that's when most of the kids are watching.   
Politically correct as always.

Bob Hunt 
17.3932Curfew NCAAHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Mar 26 1992 14:0015
I think the after 10pm starting time is a major crock. All year long the
NCAA has pretended to try to limit the hours that a student-athlete
consumes playing football and basketball. I guess it's OK to break the
10pm curfew if'n you get enought money.

Jimmy Jackson, playing for Dean? Egad. Glad it never happened. But this
poor kid Stackhouse, he might end up in Chapel Hill. Dean will cure his
bad habits such as running, jumping and scoring.

And while were on that subject, congrats to Dean on completely
eliminating Donald Williams as a contributing member of the basketball
community. Here we have a scenario wherein the best Tar Heel shooter is
hurt and Williams won't help out.

TTom
17.3933Gotta get one of these two studs ...RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Mar 26 1992 14:157
    Correct, Ketch, Stackhouse is_a awesome talent.  Him and Randy
    Livingston are creme of an awesome junior crop.  Sadly, it appears Duke
    has the inside track on Livingston, although Carolina appears in good
    position for Stackhouse.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3934Tough school to get into even if U R a athleteSHALOT::MEDVIDDancing in the deepest oceansThu Mar 26 1992 14:213
    Would 880 be enough for Stackhouse to be accepted at Duke?
    
    	--dan'l
17.3935They play the big-time athletics game, too...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Mar 26 1992 14:319
    > Would 880 be enough for Stackhouse to be accepted at Duke?
    
    My guess is yes, unless the kid is doing poorly with his high school
    grades are something.  Let's not kid ourselves, the athletes admitted
    to Duke aren't all pulling down 1000+ SAT scores...
    
    glenn
     
17.3936not the schoolHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Mar 26 1992 14:436
The limit is the NCAA no the school. Like most other schools, Duke has an
exception policy for admitting students who don't meet all normal
entrance requirements. Typically these are applied to minorities and
athletes.

TTom
17.3937ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Mar 26 1992 14:434
    Doesn't Duke have a not too distant history a pulling in dunces
    to play?
    
    MrT
17.3938Just 1 I believeSCNDRL::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now !!!Thu Mar 26 1992 14:479
17.3939Dawkins?HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Mar 26 1992 14:493
I believe Johnny Dawkins jersey retirement awaits his graduation as well.

TTom
17.3940Reputation speaks for itselfSHALOT::MEDVIDDancing in the deepest oceansThu Mar 26 1992 15:438
    OK, then let's look at it the other way.  If 880 is good enough to get
    him in and that score is a reflection of his ability, would he stand a
    chance of making it four years at Duke.
    
    They may pull punches to allow kids in, but that is where it ends at
    that school.
    
    	--dan'l
17.3941ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Mar 26 1992 16:047
    I aim talking pre-K.  Somebody in here, TTom maybe, was recounting
    crooked dummy recruiting ops at Duke that were pretty embarrassing.
    Or maybe I read a reference to that era in Basketball Times (you 
    know, those geeks who didn't even rate Calbert for honorable mention
    A-A).
    
    MrT
17.3942In your backyard nowSCNDRL::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now !!!Thu Mar 26 1992 17:047
17.3943twerent meHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Mar 26 1992 17:350
17.3944RAVEN1::B_ADAMSI'm too tough to tame!Thu Mar 26 1992 17:4611
    Chris,
    
    	You'll be glad to know that the kid from S.C. who failed the SAT.
    has finally gotten his act together at the academy in Virginia..and
    has already transfered to UNC...
    
    	I think his name was Smith...or Davis...anyways he set the single
    season record for points down here...
    
    B.A.
    
17.3945Davis and Williams will battle for PT next year ...RHETT::KNORRGraphics Workstation SupportThu Mar 26 1992 18:0410
    It's Larry Davis, and yes, The Poop Sheet reported he's 'made the
    grade'.  
    
    Davis is currently at Fork Union Military Academy in Virginia, where
    he's been playing PG.  WG is his prefered position though.  Supposedly
    the kid gets up mucho-high for his jumper, which one cain only hope is
    more accurate than the rumored-to-be-accurate Donald Williams 'J'.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3946Cavs take BobHunt's advise and load up on cupcakes. :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 26 1992 20:1011
    Here's a UVa update that oughta put a smile on Bob "Spin Doctor" Hunt's
    face:
    
    Jeff Jones is already taking flak over next year's schedule.  Seems
    he's got 15 home games lined up - the most of any ACC school.  Included
    in these tilts are three (3) Big South Conference teams and Delaware
    State.  (I challenge anybody to name two (2) Big South Conference teams
    without looking it up ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3947ROYALT::ASHEWho can turn the world on w/ her smile?Thu Mar 26 1992 20:141
    Jacksonville, South Alabama?
17.3948ROYALT::ASHEWho can turn the world on w/ her smile?Thu Mar 26 1992 20:222
    No wait, is that Campbell's conference?  Is Furman in that?  Stetson?
    I think Jacksonvill and USA are Sun Belt, right?
17.3949Those schools are national powers, relatively speaking. Heh!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 26 1992 20:224
    Nyet to both, Walt.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3950Obviously I looked this up.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 26 1992 20:2313
    Big South members are:
    
    Davidson
    Coastal Carolina
    Radford
    Campbell
    Winthrop
    Charleston Southern
    UNC Asheville
    Liberty
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3951CakeSCNDRL::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now !!!Thu Mar 26 1992 20:2721
17.3952ROYALT::ASHEWho can turn the world on w/ her smile?Thu Mar 26 1992 20:272
    Oh, of course, the Chanticleers and the Camels...
    
17.3953If there's cupcakes to be gorged (hoops or grid), it's the ACC!NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Mar 26 1992 20:421
    
17.3954Perfessor Knorr's grade: "I" (Incomplete)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Mar 26 1992 20:515
    Nice work Ketch, meeting the challenge *after* I posted the answers! 
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3955I'd give the benefit of the doubt...ROYALT::ASHEWho can turn the world on w/ her smile?Thu Mar 26 1992 20:592
    Hey, you gave him what, 13 minutes to take the test?  How fast do you
    type?  Maybe you should have given someone else to take the test?
17.3956ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Mar 26 1992 22:308
    Chris,  don't get down on UVa's young new tail-spinning NIT-proud
    hoops coach.  Word is he sat down with that UVa grid coach, reviewed
    several dozen notes from a certain glory-smitten UVa alum (won't 
    mention is name, but unlike you he really IS a alumnus) and Jeff
    forthwith decided to take the low road, the cupcake trail, to the
    Almost Close's 5 day regular season.
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom
17.3957Don't emulate dose crybabysCTHQ2::LEARYBobHunt,David Copperfield of ::SPORTSFri Mar 27 1992 12:496
    Boo Hiss Robert.
    Sigh, UVa takin' the low road ala Carlolina.
    
    Sadly,
    MikeL
    
17.3958MIMS::ROLLINS_RFri Mar 27 1992 12:527
> Winthrop, Campbell, Radford, Liberty, Coastal Carolina, Davidson, 
> UNC-Asheville, College of Charleston ... might be 1 or 2 more.

  Actually, College of Charleston is in the TAAC starting with spring
  sports, and was an independent this last basketball season.
  Charleston Southern (formerly Baptist College, I believe) is in the
  Big South Conference, as was already mentioned by Chris.
17.3959PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollFri Mar 27 1992 13:074
    Here's something for the NIT basher(s) to mull over.  We saw last
    year's NIT finalist make it to the Sweet 16 this year.
    
    HTH
17.3960NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Mar 27 1992 13:1619
    
    The NCAA really should do something about setting some minimum
    requirements for non-conference games, if for no other reason than 
    for the benefit of the fans.  Let's face it, Virginia's regular 
    season schedule (from what Bob posted) was reasonable, but it wasn't
    outrageously tough.  Notre Dame (the past few years), Richmond, New 
    Orleans, etc., are nice non-con opponents, teams that make the games 
    interesting but for a solid NCAA-bound major conference team shouldn't 
    be absolutely frightening to schedule.  Georgetown, Alabama, and 
    Stanford are tougher but are winnable games, fair games.
    
    Trading off an enjoyable regular season for a game or two in the NCAAs
    as a fringe team isn't worth it, in my opinion.  I'd feel cheated on
    the whole (as Carolina and fans of other teams should too, as non-con
    games are a chance to get out in the world and have some fun, so to
    speak...)
    
    glenn
     
17.3961ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Mar 27 1992 13:1910
    re .3959
    
    The only thing that keeps the NIT from being perfectly terrible
    (it already is perfectly meaningless) is the NCAA selection 
    committee's dogged insistence on not granting bids to the nation's
    64 best college hoops squads.
    
    Simple as that.
    
    MrT
17.3962Sellout ??? Probably but it's the wave of the future ...SCNDRL::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now !!!Fri Mar 27 1992 13:5036
17.3963PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollFri Mar 27 1992 13:5711
    I realize that T's tirade against the NIT is probably just to try to
    get Bob's goat, but...
    
    What is really the problem with putting together another tournament for
    the second tier teams?  You're giving more kids the chance to compete
    for something.  You're giving programs a chance to compete in a similar
    format to the Big Dance, from which they can gain experience.  You're
    giving more schools a chance to take in additional funding which will
    hopefully be channeled throughout the school.  Noone is claiming a
    National Championship as a result of the NIT.  If you want to ban the
    NIT, why not ban the Div II and III championships while you're at it?
17.3964On scheduling ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Mar 27 1992 14:0017
    re: scheduling
    
    I dunno, I think Jones is doing the right thing, but probably a year
    too late.  Consider the fact that Virginia is a very young team. 
    Confidence in this kindof situation is extremely fragile.  Winning
    tends to increase confidence; losing tends to decrease confidence. 
    This formula is true regardless of the opponent, although I'll grant
    you the differentials have a greater swing based on the strengh of the
    other team.
    
    When you've got a veteran team, sure, go out and schedule the Big Boys. 
    But when you're young and staring at an absolutely brutal 16-game
    conference schedule where there simply are no guaranteed W's, wail,
    buying a half dozen W's or so probably ain't a bad idea.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.3965FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Fri Mar 27 1992 14:114
    Massachusetts was not an NIT finalist lasted year.  We lost to Stanford
    in the semis and then lost the consolation game.
    
    Ninj
17.3966More ...SCNDRL::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now !!!Fri Mar 27 1992 14:1313
The NIT is for losers.   Either that or for small-conference teams that got 
squeezed (Wisconsin-Green Bay, for example).

At this point in the progression of Virginia basketball, I consider the NIT 
a step backward.   They've been to more NCAA's than NIT's over the past 
decade and this is no time to revert.   

I do believe they should play to win it and I like the fact that they're 
doing so.   I also believe in the carryover effect from a good NIT run to 
the nexted year for a young team.    But they shoulda been in the Big Dance.  
I can't be satisfied with less.  Provided it's done cleanly, of course.

Bob Hunt
17.3967RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOABD - Anybody But Duke!Fri Mar 27 1992 14:307
    I still say the NIT should be the exclusive domain of the second tier
    conferences.  And the NCAA the first tier.  Face it, that's what the TV
    moguls want.  Sure, they have cutesy stories about Campbell vs. Duke -
    but they'd  rather have a team like Clemson, Notre Dame, Minnesota -
    someone for a big conference, play Duke.  More interest to the fans.
    
    JD
17.3968Silly ideaSHALOT::MEDVIDDancing in the deepest oceansFri Mar 27 1992 14:5619
>    I still say the NIT should be the exclusive domain of the second tier
>    conferences.  
    
    By this, you are automatically defining college hoops history.  What's
    to say that some day one of these conferences can't emerge as a first
    tier conference?
    
    The WAC did it a few years ago.  Imagine if they had to send teams like
    Wyoming and BYU to the NIT because their conference was considered
    second-tier.  What about the Ivey League?  Long ago and far far away,
    it was one of the best hoops conferences ever.  
    
    I won't hold my breath to wait for the Mid-American Conference to make
    it to the first tier, but I've got to believe that someday before I
    die, they will send three teams to the NCAA in one year.  Wouldn't it
    be ashame if this happened and they were forced into the NIT just
    because of conference affiliation?
    
    	--dan'l
17.3969More ...SCNDRL::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now !!!Fri Mar 27 1992 15:1020
17.3970MIMS::ROLLINS_RFri Mar 27 1992 15:2226
	I don't see much sense in having the "top 64" teams go to
	the NCAA tournament.  I'd rather see the small schools get a bid
	and enjoy the few ETSU-Arizona, Cleveland State-Indiana,
	Idaho State-UCLA upsets we get each year, plus the near upsets
	by Princeton, Towson State, etc.

	If they eliminate the small school conference champions, then they
	ought to cut the tournament back to 32 teams.  Who really wanted to
	see a matchup between Illinois and Duke in the NCAAs, or N.C.State
	and Ohio State, or any of the other matchups that we'd see in the
	first round ?  Besides, what if the best team in the country really
	was from one of these conferences ?  It was in the mid 70's
	when UMES was unbeaten in the MEAC, and the late 70's/early 80's
	when Alcorn State was unbeaten in the SWAC.  Neither team got an NCAA
	invitation because their conference hadn't qualified yet, and they
	were too small to get an invitation.  I bet they'd have played pretty
	well in any case.  Sort of like U Vermont in women's basketball this
	year.  They were unbeaten, probably not going to win the title.
	But they were invited and played a pretty good first round game (lost
	by 1 vs GWU on GWU's home floor).

	Personally, I don't believe most fans want to see the ACC #7 team or
	the Big Eight's #8 team in the NCAA tournament.  In supposed to be
	determining a national champion, and teams that are not even close
	to a conference championship have no right to be in a tournament
	determining a national champion.
17.3971RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOABD - Anybody But Duke!Fri Mar 27 1992 15:5415
    Rick -
    
    I agree - but that's not what happens.   Iowa State was 5-9 in
    conference play, but got a bid.  The smaller conferences only get one
    team picked - and that team is lucky to get a #14 seed.    
    
    They play lip service to the small teams, and then load up on the
    regular conferences.
    
    FWIW, CBS has picked who they'dlike in the Final 4 - Duke, Ohio State,
    Georgia Tech and Indiana.   Tech for the souther audience.  Duke for
    the east.  Ohio State for the Midwest, and IU becuase of Bob Knight. 
    I'd have thunk they'd want UCLA for the west audience.
    
    JD
17.3972UEFA CupSALES::THILLFri Mar 27 1992 16:0624
re -2 

Bob Hunt hit the nail on the haid. The closest example I can think of is the 
UEFA Cup. This is for the 2nd place and below clubs of all the European soccer 
leagues (not to be confused with the Cahmpions Cup and the Cup-Winners Cups)

They take 64 teams and there are 35 leagues, so a lot of countries get more 
than one team. Every country has at least one team. They rate the relative 
strength of leagues based on how well teams had done over the past 5 years. So,
if teams from a supposedly strong league (like Scotland) get knocked out in the 
first round too many times, they will see their allocation drop from the 2nd,
3rd & 4th teams to only 2 teams. On the other hand, this is the second year in 
a row that a Turkish team made it to the final 8, so they will probably get 
2 UEFA places next time around. 

If they did this for basketball, you would see a lot more "rooting for the 
conference" that so many people decry. They could also have a preliminary round
where champions of 2 "minor" conferences would play off for the right to face 
the big guns.

This would provide yet another "Fack" to prove that [MY major conference] is 
better than [YOUR major conference]

Tom
17.3973ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Mar 27 1992 16:256
    5-9 Iowa St. got a bid on the assumption that the Big8 was such
    a great conference, a thought that turned out to be daid wrong,
    with a good possibility that they won't even place a team in the
    Final8.
    
    MrT
17.3974ROYALT::ASHEWho can turn the world on w/ her smile?Fri Mar 27 1992 16:314
    Is that like a Gumby trophy?
    
    Iowa St. did beat do better than teams like Depaul, Arizona and
    others...
17.3975CNTROL::CHILDSHulkster is Blubster w/out vitaminsFri Mar 27 1992 16:377
 As John Hendry said years ago open the tournement up to everybody. Cut 
 back the regular season two weeks or so and allow teams to play only
 25 regular season contests. Use a power rating system to incourage
 teams to play harder schedule in order to earn early round homegames.
 
 mike
17.3976Has it been a year since Kansas already ???SCNDRL::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now !!!Fri Mar 27 1992 19:2018
Gentlemen,

You do all realize that we are once again poised to celebrate another 
meaningful, excellent, systematic, by-design, end-of-season, legendary 
non-peak, don't you ???

If the Great God Hoopus is a benevolent deity (and if Lenny Wirtz stays 
away from Lexington), we will all convene in here on Monday morning and, 
standing together as a most manly brotherhood of dedicated and righteous 
freedom fighters, we shall all, with one voice in unison, tear another page 
from the Great Calendar Of Life and bellow to the heavens the sacred words 
for all to hear ...

			*** ONE FOR THIRTY-ONE ***

Until then I bid you adieu.

Bob Hunt
17.3977All the reassuring signs of spring ...SHALOT::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now!!!Sat Mar 28 1992 22:145
 Thank you, O Greatest God Hoopus.   Up by 9 points and then boom boom ...
 Out go the lights.  See ya nexted year, Snuff.   1-for-32 is only 12
 months away.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3978And the men are on their way to the GardenSHALOT::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now!!!Sat Mar 28 1992 22:166
 Lady Hoos take the East Region, 70-58, over Vanderbilt.  On to Los Angeles
 for the Final Four.
 
 Last year's champs, Tennessee, is already gone so the road looks good.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3979RAVEN1::B_ADAMSI'm too tough to tame!Sat Mar 28 1992 22:335
    	I'm surprised Bob that you haven't mentioned the Yahoos win in the
    NIT...Keeping a low profile?

    B.A.

17.3980ROYALT::ASHEWho can turn the world on w/ her smile?Sun Mar 29 1992 06:192
    Maryland lost to W. Kentucky...
    
17.3981*** ONE FOR THIRTY-ONE ***ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewSun Mar 29 1992 16:411
    
17.3982Went to a Garden party ...SHALOT::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now!!!Mon Mar 30 1992 05:5513
17.3983Duke-Indiana will be a great gameSHALOT::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now!!!Mon Mar 30 1992 05:599
 Christian Laettner was 10-for-10 from the field and from the line.  Some
 people the Lord puts on this earth for his own viewing pleasure.
 
 Perhaps the Kaintuck game showed some weaknesses in Duke's armor.  Perhaps
 not.  Incredible game with a mind-boggling finish.  They're already
 calling it one of the five greatest games ever played.  Couldn't have
 scripted it any better.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.3984Laetnner is the Anti-ChristLUNER::BROOKSFlutie &gt; Kosar &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; BristerMon Mar 30 1992 14:171
    
17.3985***ONE FOR THIRTY_ONE***CNTROL::CHILDSHulkster is Blubster w/out vitaminsMon Mar 30 1992 14:253
    

17.3986Laettner, a WWF-style bad guy- I love it!SASE::SZABOFrank Way is the write-in way!Mon Mar 30 1992 14:3918
    Sorry guys, this anti-Duke, anti-Laettner sentiment I find laughable. 
    This stuff about how the NCAA and the refs protect Duke is pure
    non-sense.  If they weren't *that* good, then I might agree.  But, a
    team as good as Duke makes their own breaks, no one has to do it for
    them.  And, they certainly proved it Saturday night.
    
    Regarding Laettner's chest-stomping, it was about as effective as a
    Hulk Hogan leg drop.  Yeah, perhaps he should've gotten tossed for it. 
    Yeah, it can be viewed as classless, if you want to see it that way.  I
    prefer to look at it as a kid showing frustration, and that he's human. 
    If no one has ever done anything stupid out of frustration, then maybe
    he should get the electric chair... :-)
    
    I'll probably root for Indiana, but I certainly wouldn't mind a Duke
    win for the entertainment value in here!  :-)
    
    Hawk
    
17.3987SALEM::TIMMONSWhere's Waldo?Mon Mar 30 1992 16:039
    This stuff about Laettner kinda reminds me of Charles Barkley.
    
    No way would I want my opponent to have either of these dirty and
    too-physical players bumping into my players.
    
    What?  I can have anyone I want on my team?  Hey Chris, Sir Charles,
    welcome to our team!
    
    lEe
17.3988PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollMon Mar 30 1992 16:261
    Laettner, the next Laimbeer?
17.3989Now that's peaking !!!SCNDRL::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now !!!Mon Mar 30 1992 17:2213
Krzyzewski's 32-7 lifetime NCAA record sure makes Snuffy's 49-22 look a bit 
moldy around the edges, doesn't it ???

Hey, we'll give the Snuffer a Lifetime Medal for Mediocrity but, as each 
year goes by, Krzyzewski sets the stage for what looks to be a truly 
remarkable and ... yes ... GREAT coaching career. 

Today, nobody prepares for this tournament better than K.  If he tops off 
this year with a second straight ring, I think even the Baby Blue Faithful 
would grudingly be forced to admit that Snuffy is gazing up at Krzyzewski 
in the ACC coaching ranks.

Bob Hunt
17.3990A loss would put him in Choke HOFRIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOABD - Anybody But Duke!Mon Mar 30 1992 17:289
    But Bob, If the Dukies don't win, Coach K will slink back into massive
    chokedom.  he's what, 1-6 so far in the Final Four?  Not good by my
    standards.  A loss this year puts him up there with Dean in FInal Four
    chokes.
    
    And Duke has been #1 all year, and the overwhelming favorite to win it
    all year...no one has the talent they have.
    
    JD
17.3991So, JD, do you hate Duke or what?SHALOT::MEDVIDtwisting in the waterMon Mar 30 1992 17:525
    JD, the Kzxyzxyzxyzxy(tm) takes his team to five straight final fours
    and you're calling him a choker?  Five straight FF's sure makes Smith's
    12 straight Sweet 16's look mediocre.
    
    	--dan'l
17.3992RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOABD - Anybody But Duke!Mon Mar 30 1992 18:0121
    Dan'l
    
    Geting there is nice - but look at the track record.  Even last year's
    victory of UNLV has heard the rumours and whispers that Vegas may have 
    been in for the fix.  But that's another story.
    
    Hey, is Bud Grant considered a great Super Bowl Coach?  He got them
    there, and they got whipped.  Coach K gets them there, but one victory? 
    Next to A guy like Knight, he pales in comparison.  
    
    I don't really care about Duke one  way or another.  Given that  all
    the commentators sports 'instant-woodies' whenever they say "DUKE!",
    I'll root for other teams.
    
    Hey, he's not as  bad as Snuffy Smif, that's fer sure.  If they win it
    all this year, the monkey will be off his back.  Two straight is
    nothing to complain about...  But prior to last season, he was like
    Snuffy in 1982 - a good resume for starting projects, but never
    finished one successfully.
    
    JD
17.3993RAVEN1::B_ADAMSI'm too tough to tame!Mon Mar 30 1992 18:0311
    	I don't see what all the fuss is about Laettner's foot stompin deal
    last Saturday...all the players do it...some get caught, some don't.

    	So he got caught...he got a T...it's done with..I hope!

    On to the Twin Cities!

    	In other news...Pat Kennedy has told UNLV..to go jump!  Yeah!

    B.A.
17.3994K is on the verge of sealing a legacy...NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Mar 30 1992 18:1021
    I think, so far, the difference between Krzyzewski and Dean Smith is
    that K has taken every marginally capable team he's ever had to the
    Final Four, and has the one title to his credit despite never being a 
    clear favorite in any tournament before this one.  The fact of the 
    matter is, all things being equal, only one Final Four team wins each 
    year and the other three go home, whether they "choke" or just 
    flat lose.  For me, simply losing in the Final Four has never been the 
    sole reason that I've felt that Dean Smith has underachieved.  It's the
    fact that he's gone only 1 for 8 with some very capable Final Four 
    squads, and has failed to even make it that far in other years where he 
    was a big favorite to do so.  
    
    After surviving that scare Saturday, I think Duke will go onto win it
    all and Coach K's record of six Final Fours, four Final Twos, and Two 
    Championships will be beyond reproach, matching and perhaps even
    surpassing Knight's achievements to date.  Of course Indiana itself
    might have something to say about that, but I honestly don't see it...
    
    glenn
     
17.3995Even Isaiah scalp massages hurt more... :-) SASE::SZABOFrank Way is the write-in way!Mon Mar 30 1992 18:1711
    I agree that way too much has been made of Laettner's foot stomping. 
    The intentional haid butt by the Ohio St. player on Michigan's Howard's 
    face was much more serious.  Laettner's foot stomp had less injury 
    potential than a Hulk Hogan leg drop, as I pointed out earlier.  But, 
    the haid butt to the face could very easily have split open a gash and 
    put Howard out of the game.  Luckily it didn't.  And, since neither 
    Howard nor the Ohio St. guy are college hoops celebrities the magnitude
    of Laettner, it doesn't grab the attention, I guess...
    
    Hawk
    
17.3996retire now Dean before everyone catches on...CNTROL::CHILDSHulkster is Blubster w/out vitaminsMon Mar 30 1992 19:166
and Duke right now is on a 7 straight sweet 16 appearences streak  themselves
so if just one year they take away Snuffy's cupcakes or favorable seedings,
K will catch and surpass that record too....

mike
17.3997CrockWatch III, Day 1.SASE::SZABOFrank Way is the write-in way!Mon Mar 30 1992 19:335
    
    
    Hawk, for Denny
    
    
17.3998Separated at Birth?SALES::THILLMon Mar 30 1992 20:219
Did anyone notice that Duke's Coach Kryznzxnysxski looks like the identical twin
of the Broons' asst. GM, Mike Swillbury?  It definitely looks like they use the
same Pork Chop comb! SI did a story on Coach K a few weeks ago and showed a pic
of him as a young player (West Point?) he even had the same hair then. 

The only thing is, Swillbury has never won a title, and it don't look like he's 
gonna do it this year, even WITH Chainsaw on the bandwagon.

Tom
17.3999ROYALT::ASHEThe V X'z boyz rool!Mon Mar 30 1992 20:222
    I thought he looked like Steve from Married with Children, who got to
    the finals with Marci, and lost to Jefferson...
17.4000MCIS1::DHAMELLive long and perspireMon Mar 30 1992 21:046
    
    Since I note in this topic so often, I just thought I'd help myself
    to the 4,000th note.
    
    Dickstah
    
17.4001The tarheel burgerRIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOABD - Anybody But Duke!Mon Mar 30 1992 21:1718
    
    While traveling up to northern washington on Saturday, the wife and I
    pulled over at a small roadside tavern for some lunch.   The place had
    a good atmosphere, and good looking food.
    
    Except for the special of the day, that is.  "The TarHeel Burger" is
    what it was - and the waitress highly recommended it.  My wife said
    'Oh, that sounds good, maybe I'll get that', but then I set her
    straight "No, don't get it.  It's an overrated burger.   Despite high
    quality ingredients and expectations of a taste treat, you'll only end
    up with something that loses its luster after a few bites, and just as
    you are about to finish it, you'll choke on it..."   The waitress was a
    little confused, as was my wife.  I told her we needed more time...
    
    Guess  the owner, as it turns out, was originally from North Carolina. 
    We just had two non-tarheel burgers....
    
    JD
17.4002BSS::JCOTANCHMon Mar 30 1992 23:0012
    Watched most of the New Mexico-UVA game Friday night.  It was a sellout
    crowd in Richmond and the crowd was really into it.  It was tied at
    halftime, but UNM went ice cold in the 2nd half and Stith really came
    alive.  UVA had a single-digit lead for most of the 2nd half, and
    everytime the Lobos made a run the Cavs answered.
    
    On an NIT-related note:
    The NIT should be happy now - they bent over backward to get the
    Irish to NYC and have succeeded.
    
    
    Joe
17.4003CNTROL::CHILDSHulkster is Blubster w/out vitaminsTue Mar 31 1992 12:352
 Virgina moved on to the title game, who won the second contest?
17.4004FDCV06::KINGLebanon NH, the pits of the world!!!Tue Mar 31 1992 12:442
    
    ND....
17.4005In It To Win ItSHALOT::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now!!!Tue Mar 31 1992 12:4918
 Notre Dame over Utah as Rick Majerus lost his temper, got a late T, and
 the points killed his team.

 Virginia-Notre Dame is a rematch.  The Hoos stomped the Irish back in
 January in Charlottesville.   Should be a much different story this time
 around.

 I'm still not happy they're in the NIT (each win just underlines the NCAA
 screw job that much sharper) but I gotta like the way they're playing.  
 They could've easily bagged it by now but they seem to be on a mission to
 send Stith out in a blaze of glory.   Nice to see some fire in them and I
 hope the carryover effect for nexted year is real.

 Any other program have *both* its men's and women's hoops teams still
 alive in post-season play ???   Not too shabby.

 Bob Hunt
 
17.4006The T on the bench was another good one...SALEM::DODAClinton: Stoner with a bonerTue Mar 31 1992 13:364
Utah was jobbed big-time. Can anyone actually claim that they saw 
a foul on that play?

daryll
17.4007ROYALT::ASHEThe V X'z boyz rool!Tue Mar 31 1992 13:361
    I think Majerus had a beef... so did McDonough and Raftery...
17.4008Thanx Hawk!SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesTue Mar 31 1992 14:492
       Baby Blew Watch III, Day II!
                               Denny
17.4009McDonough and Raftery agree with meSCNDRL::HUNTStop The ACC Tourney Now !!!Tue Mar 31 1992 21:0420
17.4010RUGBY1::wayShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Wed Apr 01 1992 11:448
Oh where oh where can ACC Chris be? 
Oh where oh where can he be?

He ain't been here since Ohio State,
Trashed his beloved UNC....



17.4011ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewWed Apr 01 1992 15:2716
    Where's Crock?  Lessee, when things like this happens he is either
    "away on a trip" or "on vacation" or "in training."
    
    Which is it?  I oughta have one a my customers call into Wkstn Supp
    and axe for him pacifically and I bet he'd be on the phone in a NY
    minute.
    
    Haaa.  
    
    CHOKE CHOKE CHOKE CHOKE *** ONE FOR THIRTY-ONE ***
    
    WHOO !!
    
    HEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA !!
    
    MrT
17.4012CAMONE::WAYShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Wed Apr 01 1992 15:2910
>    
>    WHOO !!
>

Has anyone ever seen MrT and Rick Flair at the same time?
    
8^)


'Saw
17.4013Foiled!RANGER::LEFEBVREIntel Inside (tm)Wed Apr 01 1992 15:4817
           <<< Note 17.4011 by ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSY "Carolina Blew" >>>

>    Where's Crock?  Lessee, when things like this happens he is either
>    "away on a trip" or "on vacation" or "in training."
>    
>    Which is it?  
    
    None of the above.  Crock cain't use any of these as in anticipation of
    said excuses, I phoned his office at 11:30 yesterday morning.
    
    Crock: "Hello, Chris Knorr speaking..."
    
    Moi: "Oops, sorry wrong number...<snicker>"
    
    Click!
    
    Mark.
17.4014RUGBY1::wayShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Wed Apr 01 1992 16:1115
As MrT would say he's just plain skeert.

He's makin' his list (of excuses) and checkin' it twice, cause he
already knows who's gonna be naughty, and not nice...


He's calculatin' and cogitatin', and eructatin', and johsonatin'
and choke-a-latin', and oscillatin', tryin' to find some excuse
we ain't heard before.


ACC Skeert.....


'Saw
17.4015 BSS::JCOTANCHGo 'Hoos!Wed Apr 01 1992 16:141
    
17.4016Noo Yawk loves NDCTHQ1::LEARYBobHunt,David Copperfield of ::SPORTSWed Apr 01 1992 18:527
    Go play in traffic,Joe!
    
    I predict that either th 'Hoos or Irish may or may not win. The margin
    may or may not be large or small.
    
    MikeL
    
17.4017Covert Operations are the bestSHALOT::MEDVIDtwisting in the waterWed Apr 01 1992 19:145
    I confess that the April Fool pulled on Saw this morning was classic,
    but I must pat myself on the back for what awaited Bob Hunt when he
    left for work this morning.  Ask him.
    
    	--dan'l
17.4018The game will be at least 40:00 or moreSHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubWed Apr 01 1992 20:349
17.4019now ain't the time to pop that corkHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Apr 01 1992 20:364
If the Hoos win, Jeff Jones will have a nice double-double: a_NIT ring as
a players and a_NIT ring as a coach.

TTom
17.4020ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Thu Apr 02 1992 08:507
    Not to defend ACC Chris or anything but you folks did seem to reach a
    consensus that the Final 16 was about as far as they would get.
    
    Now back to your regularly scheduled bashing
    
    The Crazy Met
    
17.4021Congrats BobHuntSCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesThu Apr 02 1992 12:193
        Great NIT final lasted night. I agree with Sean McDonough, let's
    keep this tournament around.
                                     Denny
17.4022Go Hoos! Whatta team!HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Apr 02 1992 13:2411
81-76, in OT.

Bryant Stith led the Hoos with 24 but had just one FG in the last 25
minutes. Virginia got a lot of balanced scoring from Burroughs, Alexander
and Oliver - all in double figures. 

Maybe this wasn't for the championship of the world but it was a good,
well played college game and that's enough for me to keep the NIT in
business.

TTom
17.4023Interesting...SHALOT::MEDVIDtwisting in the waterThu Apr 02 1992 13:3710
>minutes. Virginia got a lot of balanced scoring from Burroughs, Alexander
    						      ^^^^^^^^^
    
    That's "Burrough", without the S.  The only reason I point this out is
    because Virginia was one of the few schools out of hundreds who spelled
    his name correctly when sending him recruiting mail.  That was how he
    eliminated most programs.  Those letters addressed to BurroughS went in
    the trash.
    
    	--dan'l
17.4024thanks, danlsHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Apr 02 1992 13:400
17.4025RDOVAX::BRAKEThu Apr 02 1992 13:4811
    The reason Burrough and Alexander were able to score so much in the 2nd
    half is because McCleod made a concientious decision to clamp down on
    Stith. This opened up other players. One cannot underestimate the
    importance of Stith to the Cav team. The attention paid to him opened
    up the game for others. 
    
    Interesting tidbit: Stith was picked Outstanding Player for NIT. Yet,
    he was not picked for the All-NIT Team.
    
    Rich
    
17.4026Nicely done and let's take it from hereSHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubThu Apr 02 1992 14:2434
 Mission accomplished and case closed.   Hoos 81, Irish 76 OT.
 
 I'll say it again ... Getting the NIT bid in lieu of an NCAA invite was a
 big step backwards for the program.   But winning the NIT is a different
 story altogether ... 5 medium-sized steps forward perhaps ???
 
 Teams have been known to ride the NIT champeen momentum to a big season
 the nexted year and I'm certainly hoping that's the case for the 1992-93
 Cavaliers.  Replacing Stith's outside shot will be a major chore but the
 kiddie korps showed great poise down the stretch and could be real tough
 nexted season.
 
 Elmer Bennett was unconscious but he was really all Notre Dame had.  Ted
 Jeffries effectively took Laphonso Ellis outta the game and the Hoos were
 content to let Bennett fire away.   The Irish shot their free throws well
 above their season accuracy and that had Jeff Jones concerned.
 
 The Hoos finish at 20-13 and Jeff Jones thus becomes the first coach in
 ACC history to win 20 or more games in his firsted two seasons.   Not even
 the Snuffer or K can say that.  A satisfying end to a difficult season. 
 
 I've pissed and moaned about the NCAA snub hard enough in here already so
 I won't launch another missive ... just to say that this champeenship
 (with a little 'c') is proof enough for me that an 8-8 ACC team shouldn't
 have been ignored.
 
 Men's NCAA Champs	... ??? Duke top-ranked Final Four favorite
 Women's NCAA Champs	... ??? Virginia top-ranked Final Four favorite
 Men's NIT Champs	... Virginia
 Women's NIT Champs	... Georgia Tech
 
 Could it be a clean post-season sweep for the ACC ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4027CAMONE::WAYShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Thu Apr 02 1992 14:3415
Bob, 

While I'm sure it is not as sweet as being the NCAA, the NIT can
indeed be a springboard to future success in the Big Dance.

UCONN hadn't done diddly in the NCAAs in a while, but Calhoun got them
in the NIT, and got them to win the champeenship, then the program kind
of "took off"....


And mark my words, on the campus today, the kids are just as happy as if
they'd won the Big Dance...


'Saw
17.4028I hear you ... but deja vu raised my expects a long time agoSHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubThu Apr 02 1992 14:5320
17.4029CAMONE::WAYShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Thu Apr 02 1992 15:0512
Remember, my friend....


All worthy roads are long, and filled with peaks and valleys.  The
valleys are there to make you appreciate and relish the peaks...


Both programs (Virginia and Connecticut) are gonna take off.  I just
hope that someday I don't have to sit and watch a Virginia-UCONN final!


'Saw
17.4030Fresh UNC Meat!TOOK::BLOUNTThu Apr 02 1992 16:0237
    OK, gang.....here comes fresh meat!  And, to make it more delectable
    for you....I'm a Carolina fan (and Alum, I might add!!) to boot!!!
    
    Wow...I can hear the chops being licked already!  Another Dean-lover
    to bash around!....what did we do to deserve this treat?
    
    I'm told that I should join this notes file, to give aid and comfort
    to those few souls who have the courage (and, of course, the common
    sense) to support the 'Heels and their revered coach.  Well, here
    I am...ready for all the snide remarks, and false accusations
    about Dean that you can hand out.   I don't promise that I can offer
    retorts to each one that will satisfy you (Dean-haters tend to be
    low on the rationality index, anyway), but at least I'll try.
    
    Keep in mind, though,, that I generally come out of hibernation
    only in, say, mid-November, at which time I issue wild predictions
    about the fate of UNC in the NCAA tournament.  Right around this
    time of year, I go back into restful hibernation for the summer,
    planning my next year's predictions for our beloved team.
    
    Who am I, you ask?  Doesn't the fact that I'm a UNC Alum say it all?
    I work in the Software Eng group in Littleton, as a manager of
    distributed processing technologies.  But, enough about work..let's
    get back to the REAL issues at hand: getting ready for the party
    next year that we'll throw when UNC wins the NCAA!
    
    Well, ACCChris,....I guess it's just you and me against the "great
    unwashed" masses.  But, given that we're 'Heels, that should be
    a fair fight!  (although I hear you're not a true Alum....but, I
    can certainly understand your desire to be thought of as one..it's
    only natural!)
    
    
    OK, let the games begin
    
    Sumner (class of '68)
    
17.4031CAMONE::WAYShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Thu Apr 02 1992 16:079
>                      <<< Note 17.4030 by TOOK::BLOUNT >>>
>                              -< Fresh UNC Meat! >-

Bob Hunt,

I'll ruck over, you take the ball and go!


'Saw
17.4032welcomeHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Apr 02 1992 16:0813
Welcome, Meat.

>    Well, ACCChris,....I guess it's just you and me against the "great
>    unwashed" masses.  But, given that we're 'Heels, that should be
>    a fair fight!  (although I hear you're not a true Alum....but, I
>    can certainly understand your desire to be thought of as one..it's
>    only natural!)

You said a mouthful there, Sumner (is it?)

It will be fresh to hear comments from someone who actually went there.

TTom
17.4033CAMONE::WAYShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Thu Apr 02 1992 16:0910
Meat....

Reminds me of Kevin Costner in "Bull Durham"...  always calin' everyone
Meat....


God, this is gonna be sweet....


'Saw
17.4034Welcome aboard...and now...SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesThu Apr 02 1992 16:104
       Chrisp is in hiding Sumner, mebbe you cain flush him out?
       So why does Snuffy only have 1 steenking title?
    
                                        Denny
17.4035Welcome, Sumner. You're gonna like it here.SCNDRL::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubThu Apr 02 1992 16:1711
In case anyone wants to know or cares, Sumner has joined our merry band at 
my personal invitation.   I've conversed with him in another notes 
conference and I invited him to join us and give us a *slightly* more 
reasonable addition to the Great Snuff Debate.

I hope we're up to the challenge.   I'm interested in hearing what a true 
Carolina alum has to say in poor Snuff's defense.

Bob Hunt

P.S.  Betcha this ends Soup's self-proclaimed mourning period !!!
17.4036Couldn't sell at the yard sale huh?7389::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Thu Apr 02 1992 16:306
    Wadja do Bob, 
    offer him a mailbox cover and some balloons?
    
    ;^)
    Keve
    
17.4037CNTROL::CHILDSHulkster is Blubster w/out vitaminsThu Apr 02 1992 16:496
 That's true enough ole Crazy One cause if'n UNC had gotten further than
 the sweet 16 that would have been a case of overacheivement on UNC's part
 and we know that's an impossibilty with the Snuffmeister at the helm...

 mike
17.4038Woo Woo Woo 'Hoo Woo Woo 'Lady 'Hoo!CTHQ3::LEARYBobHunt,David Copperfield of ::SPORTSThu Apr 02 1992 16:5131
    Well,Well
    Da best team won the NIT and having personally offered me congrats
    to Bob, I'll reiterate it here. Kudos to the 'Hoos, they downed me
    beloved Irish in OT. Bob pretty much summed it up; Ellis being
    effectively shut out by the double-team down low, leaving Bennett
    and Sweet alone to knock down o few J's. If ELMER han't been a 
    hous a fire, UVa might won by 10. Sweet was off, so Elmer had to wing
    it alone( Tower and Taylor/Russell are afta-thoughts on O). Almost
    dang succeeded. His last second trey in regulation musta added a
    few racing stripes to da 'Hoos faithful. Am I disappointed? Sure, but
    the Irish were'nt supposed to approach .500 so it was a decent season.
    With the Big Three graduating ( Ellis, Sweet and Elmer). the Irish
    will be down a coupla years till MacLeod gets some athaletes to come
    to South Bend. Well, it was fun this year anyhoo.
    
    Now I turns me attention the the Wimmin's tournament where I have
    to root for the Lady 'Hoos to win it all.  Why? Because a my newset
    found heartthrob, the wunnerful,wunnerful Tammi Reese!
    Ah, to watch her is a dream; big-hair a-cascadin',erogenous ears 
    a-flappin, lean,tan muscled form a-glistenin' ( best turn on the AC
    now, whew!) as she gracefully moves on the court. Be still my heart!
    Sigh.
    Yo, Huntmeister, didya see ma TVamour lasted weekend vs. Vandy? Po'
    Tammi, a-hittin the deck after being hit with a cross-body slam to
    the visage from the beanpoled Commodorette, checkin' ta see if all
    her choppers were steel there, calmly swishing two free throws as
    her eyes brimmed with pain-induced tears!  Ma Amazon woming! 
    I'm smitten.
    
    MikeL
    
17.4039here's a starter kit MeatANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewThu Apr 02 1992 16:5247
    Well, perhaps a summation is in order here.  As the top barrister
    in this place, let's take a look at the FACKS a the matter:
    
    - Bob > Dean, i.e., 3::20 > 1::30 
    
    - There is a mountain a anecdotal evidence that points toward
      Snuffy Smif' as a underachiever nonpariel.  Let us sit down 
      and breath reel deep and relax and think back to that night
      last year when poor Snuffer rolled out 93 substituions against
      Kansas, was five down with 35 seconds left, made a fool of 
      himself with his nonstop effeminate whining, got tossed fair
      and square with this ultra geeky glazed look on his Jerry
      Falwell-like visage, repeating the mantra "howmuchtimedoIhave?
      howmuchtimedoIhave?howmuchtimedoIhave?howmuchtimedoIhave?...
      wail you at that point had had three decades with more talent
      than anybody and you got choked more than a teenaged boy's chicken
      and OH!! who cain forget how you gave up on joe squad only five
      points down 35 seconds to go geeky geeky glazed look shaking your
      opponents hand on their victory 35 seconds to go.
    
    - Speaking a anecdotes, the world's slowest biggest-butted white
      main shut down Michael and The Greatest Team of All-Time... good
      job Smif'! [1984]
    
    - Just look at all the oodles a Star Hell talent running around in
      the NBA; and then do a high school English course compare and 
      contrast job and go into the False Temple, look up, and notice 
      all those Nat'l Championsip flags flipping hanging there haa.
    
    - Ever notice how Snuffy's squads tend to go flat come time for the
      Big Dance.  Grate coaching is what that is.
    
    - How 'bout all those early round upsets in Dean's sad-sack?
    
    - Anybody got a reprint of that genius Waugamain's equation where he
      proved that Dean's lone Title was dastisticakally inevitable?
    
    IMPORTANT NOTE: Championship tournaments are just that, they are single
    elimination deals where the only goal is to WIN THE WHOLE DAMNED THING.
    
    Now, it's ok to talk about consecutive Sweet16 appearances, but don't
    do this in connection to claimed Greatness.  No, that just won't do.
    Talk Titles when joe dangle the "G" string, this is how it must be.
                                                   
    Also, 31 years is a pretty significant sample, so forget the excuses.
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom
17.4040I love the smell of fresh meat in the morningSHALOT::MEDVIDtwisting in the waterThu Apr 02 1992 16:569
    Well well well.  From the way Bob Hunt knocks your fat pitches out of
    the park over in the Carolinas conference, I'm surprised you had the
    courage to tangle with the big boys, Sumnerother.
    
    You'll learn quickly, though, I'm sure.  I think we should start you
    off on a crash course, however, with a head on collision with one MrT. 
    Tell us, Sumnerother, why is Dean Smith greater than Bob Knight?
    
    	--dan'l
17.4041Sweep! Sweep! Sweep!ISLNDS::REEVEThu Apr 02 1992 17:0310
    Let's see:
    
    -Virginia wins the NIT
    -Georgia Tech wins the women's NIT
    -Virginia's women are #1
    -Duke's men are #1
    
    We have a good shot at an ACC Grand Slam!
    
    Chris
17.4042Dread feelingSHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubThu Apr 02 1992 17:0717
 MikeL,
 
 Tami Reiss is a major-league cutie but I somehow cain't quite shake the
 dream of a twin-tower tryst with the 6'-5" blonde Burge twins.   Betcha
 James Worthy woulda went into hyper-overdrive if those two had answered
 his escort service call.
 
 Something about this Women's Final Four is scaring me.  The Lady Hoos are
 the overwhelming favorites.  Stanford is the only other serious season
 long contender left.   It's Dawn Staley's swan song.   They came so close
 lasted year and seem to be on a mission and so on ...
 
 And, yet somehow I have this feeling I'll be gnawing my nails down to the
 bone.  Longtime Hoos Faithful never really count anything in the bag. 
 They're ripe for an upset of Biblical proportion.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4043NIT, women's NIT, women's NCAA? Who cares?ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewThu Apr 02 1992 17:086
    re 1
    
    Reeve, wanna congrat's ya on the Almost Close placing a grand
    total a *one* teams in the Elite8.  Bravo!
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom
17.4044TOOK::BLOUNTThu Apr 02 1992 17:1022
    oh wow! My own nickname!  I guess now I've REALLY arrived!
    thanks, but I'll still to my own name.
    
    For the record, (and to avoid the abuse that other UNC fans
    take around here)...let me say that I think Dean Smith is
    a "fine" coach.  On the other hand, his record (in the NCAAs, that is)
    certainly  isn't as good as one would expect, given the talent
    that he usually has recruited.  Do I think he's a better all-around
    coach than Bob Knight?  No, I have to admit that Knight's record
    is better, at least in terms of winning it all.  But, I personally
    think Knight is obnoxious, and often borders on being a full-fledged
    a**-hole.  But, that's just my personal tastes, and those people
    who measure only on the number of championships will certainly
    not agree with that.
    
    So, although I'm a strong UNC supporter, and always have been,
    I'm also not blind to the fact that they don't seem to do as
    well as might be expected come tournament time. But, then again,
    I'm also a Red Sox fan, so I'm used to pain!
    
    Sumner
    
17.4045Who woulda thunk it ???SHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubThu Apr 02 1992 17:1924
17.4046I ain't your boyfriend no more!SHALOT::MEDVIDtwisting in the waterThu Apr 02 1992 17:2011
> And, yet somehow I have this feeling I'll be gnawing my nails down to the
> bone.  Longtime Hoos Faithful never really count anything in the bag. 
> They're ripe for an upset of Biblical proportion.
    
    Bob, I'm shocked!  Have you been reading "How To Handle Pre-Game Spin
    Control: The T and IgKnorr Method"?
    
    So, are they making a run or not?
    
    	--dan'l
    
17.4047RUGBY1::wayShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Thu Apr 02 1992 17:2137
>    coach than Bob Knight?  No, I have to admit that Knight's record
>    is better, at least in terms of winning it all.  But, I personally
>    think Knight is obnoxious, and often borders on being a full-fledged
>    a**-hole.  But, that's just my personal tastes, and those people
>    who measure only on the number of championships will certainly
>    not agree with that.


Meat,  (we'll stick with that -- we weasels like the sound of it 8^))



Bob Knight obnoxious, and as a-hole?


Even if one WERE to accept that sorry premise, then what you have is
what any Gawd-fearin' Leatherneck Marine would recognize as a Drill 
Instructor.

A motivator, a molder of men, a craftsman who takes something, breaks it
down, and from the lump of raw clay left creates something WONDERFUL.


Snuff gets the talent.  He's had talent up the ying-yang, and in all these
years he managed ONE paltry title, thanks to Fred Brown's errant pass.


Bob gets what MrT terms "big-butted white guys who cain't jump" and who
probably would have problems walking and farting at the same time...  And
he crafts CHAMPIONS....



Snuff should hang his haid in shame.....


'Saw
17.4048MONGUS::BRYDIEThat's when I reach for my revolverThu Apr 02 1992 17:3211

 >> Bob gets what MrT terms "big-butted white guys who cain't jump" and who
 >> probably would have problems walking and farting at the same time...  And
 >> he crafts CHAMPIONS....
    
    Neither Keith Smart or Isaiah or Buckner or Scott May or Dean
    Whathisnamethejuniorcollegetransfer quite fit the description of
    big-butted white guys who can't jump and each of them was an integral 
    part of Bob's championship teams. However I will agree that Bob does 
    more with less.
17.4049Voice Of ExperienceSCNDRL::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubThu Apr 02 1992 17:3621
17.4050Little-10RDOVAX::BRAKEThu Apr 02 1992 17:5325
    Clearly, in T's mind, Chuck Noll was the greatest pro football coach
    ever. And nobody surpassed John Wooden as the most intelligent college
    hoops coach. Then there is Red Aurbach - the greatest pro basketball
    coach to walk the court. There is not a pro hockey coach alive to rival
    Al Arbor.
    
    T's sole measurement seems to be champeenships. I agree with his
    contention that the Snufster is Jim Boeheim's grandfather but I cannot
    place champeenships as the sole factor in greatness.
    
    As far as the NIT's and the Lady's NCAA's, I agree that the NIT does
    not deserve the attention and adulation the Men's NCAA's gets. But, it
    does contain a group of deserving teams and it does take talent to get
    to the final 4. Florida, Notre Dame and Virginia were borderline NCAA
    picks. Utah wuz robbed, in my opinion, of a birth. Apparently, some of
    us have not spent much time watching women B-Ball, either. Last years'
    final between Tennessee and Virginia had great action, great plays and
    was great entertainment. Of course, the absence of a Little-10 team in
    the final 4 probably has a lot to do with the cheap, classless
    responses by some folk. But, I'll tune in this weekend and DEC will be
    advertising during commercial breaks and the 'Hoos will give it a
    galant try.
    
    Rich
    
17.40512 down, 2 to goISLNDS::REEVEThu Apr 02 1992 17:596
    >>total a *one* teams in the Elite8.  Bravo!
    
    Hey T, I thought the only thing that matters is Championships. You
    sound like a famous Tar Heel fan getting all sweaty about the Elite8.
    
    Chris
17.4052not the only, but...HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Apr 02 1992 18:0219
Titles are not the sole measure of greatness.

The issue with Dean and his lack of titles is the number of times when he
shoulda won the title. We're talking being the seeded team and gagging.

Dean's lack of titles precludes the donning of the "G" string.

Speaking of Wooden, I heard Dean's show last night and a caller wanted to
let Dean know how impressed he was with Dean's Sweet 16 string. Dean was
quick to point out that he thought it was harder to win the it all back
in Wooden's era because you had to win your conference to even get a
chance for the title. Also, back then, there wasn't the seeding system
that is now in effect, it was more geographical with one region sometimes
containing a disproportionate number of top ranked teams.

In any case, Dean don't think that his Sweet 16 Thang is all that great a
deal. At least that's what Dean says. 

TTom
17.4053RDOVAX::BRAKEThu Apr 02 1992 18:2932
    TTom, you are absolutely correct about the fact that champeenships not
    being the sole measure of greatness. I think Don Shula is a heck of a
    great coach because he has done so much with so little. He happened to
    win a couple flags along the way, but I have to give the guy credit for
    posting winning seasons when the talent level wasn't close to the likes
    of what New England or other teams had that didn't make the playoffs.
    
    The thing that irks me about MrT's arguments is that Big 10
    champeenships seem to be the DECIDING factor in making that conference
    the most successful. There is no denying that Michigan, Illinois,
    Michigan St and Indiana have put some great teams on the floor. And,
    occasionally, a Purdue or Minnesota or Ohio St will have a very good
    season.
    
    But there is also no denying the good teams from the PAC10 like UCLA,
    Arizona and Oregon St or from the Southeast with Tennessee, Alabama,
    Auburn and Kentucky. Or the ACC with Wake Forest, North Carolina, Duke
    and Maryland. Or the Big East with Seton Hall, Georgetown, St John's
    and Villanova. 
    
    I've probably left some out. I apologize. But this constant harangue
    against a conference because of a hatred of one coach wears thin. Dean
    Smith is not a master motivator and can be out-coached in the big game.
    Does that make him worse of a mentor than Jim Valvano or Jerry
    Tarkanian or Billy Tubbs or Dale Brown? I like to think that the one
    thing Smith stands for is a fairly honest program. Not totally, mind
    you, because no big time college program is above some kind of
    questionable dealings. But at least the guy is either too smart to be
    caught -OR- actually runs a fairly honest program.
    
    Rich
    
17.4054Dale Brown, ugh!; Billy Tubbs, the worstHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Apr 02 1992 18:478
>    ... Dean
>    Smith is not a master motivator and can be out-coached in the big game.
>    Does that make him worse of a mentor than Jim Valvano or Jerry
>    Tarkanian or Billy Tubbs or Dale Brown? 

What a list! Wait till T sees this.

TTom
17.4055SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesThu Apr 02 1992 18:482
       this 'meat' guy is no fun, he makes too much sense.
                                    Denny 8^)
17.4056Can't let it slide, oh no...SASE::SZABOFrank Way is the write-in way!Thu Apr 02 1992 18:515
    Hey Denny, yer slippin' on the CrockWatch thang.  Don't let Meat
    distract ya... :-)
    
    Hawk
    
17.4057Sorry Kwak!SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesThu Apr 02 1992 18:572
    Crockwatch III, Day IV.
                                          Denny
17.4058CAMONE::WAYShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Thu Apr 02 1992 19:0112
>    Neither Keith Smart or Isaiah or Buckner or Scott May or Dean
>    Whathisnamethejuniorcollegetransfer quite fit the description of
>    big-butted white guys who can't jump and each of them was an integral 
>    part of Bob's championship teams. However I will agree that Bob does 
>    more with less.

Agreed Tommy.

I was using a tad of literary license to make a point....8^)


'Saw
17.4059CAMONE::WAYShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Thu Apr 02 1992 19:0621
Denny,

I like Meat.

I mean, he's more of a challenge now.  

ACC Chris has gotten to be like the Sheriff in the 2nd Smokey and the
Bandit movie.  Every time he'd hear Bandit's name, he'd have to start
chanting his mantra.

We can beat on Chris less and less because everytime we come up with
a rip-roaring good point, Chris starts chanting his BabyBlew mantra...


So we needed some "fresh meat"....



;^)

'Saw
17.4060Even in the ACC!CTHQ1::LEARYBobHunt,David Copperfield of ::SPORTSThu Apr 02 1992 19:079
    .1041
    
    Chris,
    ACK This "we" crap has gots ta stop!
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    
    
17.4061another positive stepCNTROL::CHILDSThis and That and the OtherThu Apr 02 1992 19:076
 Seeing this is the hot note for the day I'll share some good news with you
 all, Hudson passed ISO9000 unconditionally. First plant in DEC to do so....

 mike
 
17.40628^)CAMONE::WAYShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Thu Apr 02 1992 19:1012
Guess that means you all can don the "G-string" there, Mikey.

Congrats!  No flies on you!


Keep up the good work,


Phoe shit schlep!


'Saw
17.4063"Molder of men..." -GAG !!!!EARRTH::BROOKSYeah, da Tew Yutes ....Thu Apr 02 1992 19:268
    re .4047
    
    ACChris --> Dean
    Saw ----> Knight
    
    Now we need IU's equivlant to Blount to shake some reality into Saw ...
    
    Doc
17.4064EARRTH::BROOKSYeah, da Tew Yutes ....Thu Apr 02 1992 19:3231
    
    re .4050
    
>>    Clearly, in T's mind, Chuck Noll was the greatest pro football coach
>>    ever. 
    
    Actually T sucks up to Glanville - enough said.
    
>>    And nobody surpassed John Wooden as the most intelligent college
>>    hoops coach. 
    
    That *should* be right Rich, but watch how T will try to find a
    loophole out of that ...
    
>>    Then there is Red Aurbach - the greatest pro basketball
>>    coach to walk the court. 
    
    Are you trying to get a rise out of me ?! :-)
            
>    Apparently, some of us have not spent much time watching women B-Ball, 
>    either.
    
    I started wating it in person when I attended Rice, and had to endure
    that sorry excuse of a men's team. The women were a much better bunch
    (if the women's field was as large as the men's Rice would have
    certainly made it) - had a great-looking off-guard too ....
    
    	Anyhow, I was pleasantly suprised at how good the women's team was,
    and the style of ball they played - very efficient, good at finding the
    open person (wo(man) :-), little ball-hogging, and a 30 second clock to
    boot. I started going to as many games as possible after that ...
17.4065CAMONE::WAYShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Thu Apr 02 1992 19:4722
Doc,

Actually, Knight is more like a drill sgt than any coach I've seen.


And believe me, the Marines break you down, utterly and totally down,
and rebuild you beyond yourself into something that works great as
a team.

USMC -- builders of MEN.

Bob Knight -- builder of MEN.


I personally like Bob Knight, and don't see all that much radically wrong
with his antics, because I can see how a person can have a temper to control.
But that's JMO....


8^)

'Saw
17.4066(8^)*CELTIK::JACOBOn the trail of SveltThu Apr 02 1992 19:494
    USMC:== U. S. MORON Corp????????????????????????
    
    JaKe
    
17.4067CAMONE::WAYShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Thu Apr 02 1992 19:5110
>    USMC:== U. S. MORON Corp????????????????????????
>    
>    JaKe


That's it Jake.  The Wedding is OFF!!!!


;^)    

17.4068RDOVAX::BRAKEThu Apr 02 1992 19:5131
    re Doc
    
>>    Then there is Red Aurbach - the greatest pro basketball
>>    coach to walk the court. 
    
 >   Are you trying to get a rise out of me ?! :-)
    
    Of course, you know, my friend, that, following T's Big 10 Champeenship
    logic, ole Red would be unsurpassed. Actually, I DO believe Red was one
    of the best pro coaches the NBA ever had. His skills as a GM do not
    even approach what he did on the court. 
    
    He took a team that was floundering, added a hot shot from Holy Cross
    named Cousy, took a gamble on two black men from USF named Russell and
    Jones and started a legend. I say "gamble" because it went against the
    grain to put the fate of a franchise in the hands of blacks in the
    50's. Remember, too, that Red felt that talent meant everything and
    putting 5 blacks on the floor gave him a better chance at it.
    
    His tactics infuriated oppenents. His cigar ritual still sticks in the
    craw of many an NBA coach and front office person. But, under his
    leadership, the Celtics wrested control of the NBA from the Minny
    Lakers and St. Louis Hawks.
    
    His later moves with the likes of Michael Smith, Fred Roberts and Greg
    Kite have soured my opinion of him. But there is no denying his
    architectual genius in the Celtics' heydays.
    
    Rich
    
    
17.4069NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Apr 02 1992 20:026
                
    How come like every other day I read in the newspapers that another
    ex-Marine has offed someone in the streets?  ;-)
    
    glenn
    
17.4070CELTIK::JACOBOn the trail of SveltThu Apr 02 1992 20:0311
    re.4069
    
    Cause there ain't many jobs that entail killing and burnin people in
    REAL life.
    
    (8^0*
    
    (8^)* x 100
    
    JaKe
    
17.4071Zamphyr ZevonHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Apr 02 1992 20:075
All this mainly stuff begs the question:

	What about Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner?

TTom
17.4072CSC32::J_HERNANDEZMoney hides a lot of ugly.Thu Apr 02 1992 20:095
    USMC - Uncle Sam's Misguided Children
    
    or 
    
    U Signed the Motherf****** Contract
17.4073CAMONE::WAYShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Thu Apr 02 1992 20:0916
Aw c'mon....

If you're talking about Whitman in the library tower, you've got to say
one thing for the guy.....HE COULD SHOOT...8^)


Sorry.

I don't know.  Probably because the press makes a big deal out of it
because the guy was former military.  I mean, if I went out and 
bought a rifle, and went to the top of the Travelers tower and starting
offing insurance company yuppies, you wouldn't hear much about it cause
I ain't military and can't shoot worth a damn....8^)


'Saw
17.4074crockwatchTOOK::BLOUNTThu Apr 02 1992 20:107
    OK..I'll bite.  Could someone point me to the note that defines
    what Crockwatch is?  I can guess it's a reference to my fellow
    'Heel, but I'd like to know the details.
    
    thx
    Sumner ("Meat")
    
17.4075consideringHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Apr 02 1992 20:113
That and the part about insurance company yuppies. 

TTom
17.4076Da CrockwatchCAMONE::WAYShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Thu Apr 02 1992 20:1621
Meat,

Because ACC Chris is so full of it sometimes, he has on occasion garnered
the nickname ACC Crock.

Whenever something happens like Dean's loss a while back, Crock takes
a powder, and we start a Watch.


It's not just ACC Crisp, either, it's kind of a SPORTS tradition.
If you peruse some of notes in here (Broncos, Browns -- we have a HalWatch
in there, and others) you'll see we have them often.


Hope this helps  (which is usually abbreviated hth, or Hal Tried Hard(tm))

hth,
'Saw


PS  Phoe Shit Shlep means the same thing as Hope this Helps....
17.4077SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesThu Apr 02 1992 20:173
       Everytime the Baby Blew's suffer a underacheiving loss. Chris hides
    out for a few daze. We're just trying to draw him outta his shell.
                                       Denny
17.4078Crockwatch definedSHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubThu Apr 02 1992 20:2026
17.4079CAMONE::WAYShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Thu Apr 02 1992 20:2224
Meat,

Here are a few Sports Noting Tips.


First, we allow Junk Noting.  If you do it in the Junk Note (73) things
stay pretty tidy.  If you put them in other notes, MtM (Mac the Moderator)
will move it on you to the junk note.

We have a few moderators, of which I'm one.....


Now, check out the Trademark (tm) note (24 I believe).  It contains
all of the trademarked SPORTS expressions, and might be useful to
help you get to know SPORTS lingo...


If there are any other questions you have, by all means feel free to
axe 'em in here.   We may bust on you because you're a Hare Smithna(tm)
but we'll always help you out because you're now a fellow Sports NOter...


GREAT nickname btw,
'Saw
17.4080CELTIK::JACOBOn the trail of SveltThu Apr 02 1992 20:2810
    
>>stay pretty tidy.  If you put them in other notes, MtM (Mac the Moderator)
                                                     ^^^
    
    Reminds me more of Mary Tyler Moore!!!!!
    
    Many, Many (8^)*'s
    
    JaKe
    
17.4081He's got others too!7389::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Thu Apr 02 1992 20:3611
    
    When it comes to rugby, feel free to use MtW to address Mr. MacNeal.
    
    He won't mind a bit but he does occasionally squeel.
    
    hth,
    
    I remain,
    paying no attention to the Fascist behind the keyboard,
    Kev
    
17.4082Great song, great album, great artistSHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubThu Apr 02 1992 20:4213
17.4083CTHQ3::LEARYBobHunt,David Copperfield of ::SPORTSThu Apr 02 1992 20:469
    Gittin' back to the NIT final last night,
    After watching Elmer Bennett of ND at the foul line, I knew he reminded
    me of someome, but I couldn't make the match. Well I was thinking about
    it today and presto! Synapse! He's got that gaunt, ghost-like
    countenance that I had seen many times before. He reminds me of
    Ivan Lendl.  N'est-ce-pas
    
    MikeL
    
17.4084Saw that tooSHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubThu Apr 02 1992 21:117
 Yeah, ol' Elmer Bennett shot lots of free throws lasted night so we had
 plenty of photo opps on the young man.  He also took f-o-r-e-v-e-r to
 stare at the basket and then finally (whew!) shoot it.
 
 He definitely has that gaunt (almost skeletal) look to his visage.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4085Local boy makes good !EARRTH::BROOKSYeah, da Tew Yutes ....Thu Apr 02 1992 21:311
    Yea Elmer (Milby H.S. Houston, TX. Class of 88 I believe) !!!!!
17.4086ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightFri Apr 03 1992 00:2136
    Yo, Mr. Meat.  Pretty strong stuff likening Bob to a anal orifice
    like that.  Butt wouldn't that term be better applied to a guy who:
    
    - Allowed a arena to be named after him while he was still active
    
    - Allowed his point guard to punch in a gal's face and did nothing
    
    - Allowed his asst. coach to attack a ref after a humiliating Final4
      loss
    
    - Allowed his team to scuffle with police and security guards after a
      humiliating Final4 loss
    
    It smells like maybe Carolina is going dirty as a program.  Yuk.
    
    re last few
    
    You don't have to be a theoretical physicist to understand these
    things:
    
    - Titles is a perfect measure for comparing coaches who've been in
      the biz a while and for whom claims of greatness are made
    
    - I have never stated that it's is the sole criterion (that's criteria
      to you, Midnight)
    
    - Appearances in the Final4Elite8Sweet16 are perfect measures for 
      comparing conferences cuz there's only one Title and 64 teams, and
      at least 8 teams per conference, which is more than one.  These 
      three levels also represent where the bulk of the best meet in 
      intersectional clashes
    
    - Non-Title appearances are also good measures for younger coaches, 
      to wit Huggins, Calipari, Pitino, Wright et al...
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom
17.4087SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesMon Apr 06 1992 12:062
       Crookwatch III, Day ate!
                                       Denny
17.4088The Dean Smif' of the women's game?NAC::G_WAUGAMANMon Apr 06 1992 12:5517
    
    Bob, I've got to sympathize with you for what must have again been an
    excrutiating NCAA Final Four loss by Virginia's women's team.
    
    Just curious, but what do think of Virginia's coach?  I've seen the
    last few minutes of the Virginia games the last two years and in both,
    Virginia's play down the stretch resembled the Dawn Staley Show, with
    the rest of the team standing around watching.  Much is said and
    written about the teamwork involved in women's basketball, but I
    certainly didn't see it at the end of these games.  Virginia was hurt 
    badly by a couple of their starters fouling out, and that's
    understandable, but you've still got to play as a team instead of
    having one player hold the ball all the time and take all the shots,
    triple-teamed all the while...
    
    glenn
    
17.4089matchupsHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Apr 06 1992 13:5811
USA Today's predictions of matchups and the game:

Forwards:	Edge to Michigan for Chris Webber
Center:		Edge to Duke for Christian Laettner
Guards:		Edge to Duke for Bobby Hurley
Bench:		Edge to Michigan - Brian Davis hurt, James Voskuil 
			stepping up
Coach		Edge to Duke - Coack K's experience
Game:		Duke to win, 87-82.

TTom
17.4090Getting Tired Of This RerunSHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubMon Apr 06 1992 15:4556
 "Excrutiating" is a damn fine word for it, Glenn.   Throw in a few more
 like "agonizing", "bitter", "depressing" ... and so on.
 
 Yep, once again a Virginia sports team opens up the Orange-And-Blue
 Underachievement Scrapbook and inserts yet another black-bordered page.  
 By now, you have to figure the Scrapbook is a three-ring binder ... the
 easier to slip new pages into it with each annual disappointment.
 
 I honestly don't know what's worse ... rooting for a perennial dog that
 occasionally makes history with a rare overachievement (see "Phillies,
 Philadelphia) or a very good team that annually blinks in the Mirror Of
 Greatness.   They both sip ... there, that settles that.
 
 These Lady Wahoos (aka "Bridesmaids") can now take their rightful spot
 right next to Ralph Sampson's underwhelming teams of 10 years ago.   Three
 straight Final Fours with a two-time National Player Of The Year and three
 straight empty bus rides home with their sweat towels full of tears.
 
 The Burge twins were brutal.  Out of position, way too physical, missing
 easy paint shots.  At one point, I thought fouling them both out was
 exactly what the Lady Hoos needed.   They were much better with Melanie
 Wagener and Aundra Smith (with a concussion) in there.   And the Burges
 are from SoCal so their twin gagjob was all the more painful for family
 and friends.
 
 I can't find a lot of fault with Dawn Staley.  She's rescued them so many
 times that it just seems the right thing to do when it's crunch time. 
 I watched her kill Ga Tech all by herself three short weeks ago.   But she
 needed help and the outside game just wasn't there ... Tammi Reiss shot
 poorly and didn't seem her usual flying self.
 
 Debbie Ryan has to be concerned with the "Dean Smith" tag.  You can't tell
 me she can win the Big One when she hasn't done so.   Not with the talent
 she's had.   What difference does it make if she won 32 out of 33 games
 before Saturday ???   Stanford's got the ring.   She cain't finish the
 race.   Hell, the Lady Hoos had an 8 point lead with 5:00 minutes left,
 fer cripes sake.    
 
 Nope, this one was a choke, pure and simple.    They can look so good when
 they're rockin-n-rollin' and then so brutal when it's ring time.   Year in
 and year out.  I worried about it on Friday (and Dan'l teased that I was
 sand-bagging ... NOT!) and it came sadly true as predicted on Saturday.
 
 Good-bye, Dawn Staley and Tammi Reiss.  The Lady Hoos will come back to
 the rest of the pack nexted year without you.   And then the Burge twins
 will be gone and it'll be rebuilding time all over again.   Same old same
 old in C'ville.   Some things never change.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.   I resolved not to bitch about the refs but I can't resist.   Both
 women's games were horribly called.  Absolutely pathetic for *ALL*
 players.   They called over *60* fouls in the West Ky-SW Mo St game and
 then close to 50 more in the Stanford-Virginia game.   Way too much
 ticky-tack stuff that never shoulda been called and then they almost blew
 the final seconds of the Hoos game by missing their frantic TO requests.
17.4091Val WhitingHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Apr 06 1992 15:517
The difference in the game had to be Stanford's Center, Val Whiting. She
looks like she could play on a lot of teams. There was nothing Virginia
could do to stop her. On a couple of plays they forced her outside and
she still made the move to the inside. Mostly, she just caught it and
muscled it in.

TTom
17.4092SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesMon Apr 06 1992 15:543
       Well, at least BobHunt cain take his lumps like a main. Unlike
    certain other ACC noters who may or may not be reading this!
                                   Dneny
17.4093Sorry I couldn't place that congrats call to Rock Hill SaturdaySHALOT::MEDVIDit's just the way i smile, you saidMon Apr 06 1992 15:5415
> women's games were horribly called.  Absolutely pathetic for *ALL*
> players.   They called over *60* fouls in the West Ky-SW Mo St game and
> then close to 50 more in the Stanford-Virginia game.  
    
    Because of the length of time it took for the women's games, CBS
    requested (and was granted) that the men's games start a half hour
    later than scheduled.
    
    Think they'll try to show all four games nexted year?  Where are the
    women's games nexted year?  If they do, wouldn't you suspect that
    because of the fiasco this year, next year's women's games will be
    rather loosely officiated because of a double-secret CBS mandate?  I
    do.
    
    	--dan'l
17.4094should be Friday-SundayHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Apr 06 1992 15:578
NCAA should switch the women's semis to Friday night. That way, the women
would play Friday-Sunday and the men could stick to Saturday-Monday.

Watching the women's semi made we almost wish for an overtime to see what
CBS woulda done. Whether they switched or not, they would have some
dissatisfied viewers.

TTom
17.4095SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesMon Apr 06 1992 15:582
       I think the women's games are in Hotlanta nexted year.
                                    Denny
17.4096Know all about WhitingSHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubMon Apr 06 1992 16:0520
17.4097Stanford deserved it, I'm sorry to say...SASE::SZABOFrank Way is the write-in way!Mon Apr 06 1992 16:1618
    I watched the whole Virginia game, and wanting them to win, it was very
    frustrating.  The coach sucked, pure and simple.  Why, oh why, did she
    insist on forcing the ball into a double-teamed Burge, especially when
    they did finally get it in there, both Burges gagged on the easiest of
    shots, constantly.  Took Dawn Staley right out of the game.  The only
    times she was effective was when she decided to take the 12-footer
    herself, instead of forcing it in.  And, I agree that Wagener was much
    more of a force inside than either of the Burges.  She was by far the
    only bright spot for the Hoos all game.  And, Smith's 2nd half
    performance was admirable.  But it all came down to coaching, pure and
    simple.  Even with all the blown shots, and even with the enormous play
    of Whiting and Stanford's guard (forget her name), a little smarter
    coaching would've pulled it out.  Oh yeah, the officials were much too
    visible.  Can't say that they won or lost the game for either team, but
    they blew the whistle way too many times...
    
    Hawk
    
17.4098They'll want Saturday if they can get itSHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubMon Apr 06 1992 16:2913
17.4099SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesMon Apr 06 1992 16:334
       You won't see the ladies semis on Fri. No way CBS will put it in
    Prime Time on a Fri. night. Though I'd watch it rather than the drivel
    that's on at that time.
                                       Denny
17.4100RDOVAX::BRAKEMon Apr 06 1992 16:4717
    Article in the local paper this morning 'bout the Lady Hoos. To a
    player they agree that as Staley and Reiss go, so goes the team. Coach
    said other players look to Tammi and Dawn when the going gets tough.
    Seldom do both players have a bad game, according to Coach.
    
    Well then, I agree that there is a major problem with the coach.
    
    On the brighter side, UVA has signed the #1 high school lady player in
    N. Carolina. And, they are getting a 6'5" center from the same high
    school the Berges played at. That will give UVa the possibility of
    putting (3) 6'5" players on the court at the same time.
    
    Congrats to Stanford. And, Bob you are right. Val Whiting is a special
    kind of player.
    
    Rich
     
17.4101Must be something in the water!SHALOT::MEDVIDit's just the way i smile, you saidMon Apr 06 1992 18:346
>    And, they are getting a 6'5" center from the same high
>    school the Berges played at. 

    Somebody check the water fountains at that high school!

    	--dan'l
17.4102PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollMon Apr 06 1992 18:462
    Interestingly enough, the Lady Longhorns were regularly outdrawing
    their male basketball counterparts until Penders came along.
17.4103RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWilkes county N.C.!Mon Apr 06 1992 19:386
    Bob,
    
    	Are you going to give us a review of the Lady hoos lose to
    Stanford?  Wish they could have made it...FWIW.
    
    B.A.
17.4104Do a SET SEEN to this AM and read all about itSHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubMon Apr 06 1992 19:493
 Earth to B.A., Earth to B.A., ...
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4105ACC in the FinalsHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Apr 06 1992 20:0529
Here's how the ACC has done in the Final Game:

1946	Oklahoma A&M 43, No Carolina 40

1957	No Carolina 54, Kansas 53 3OT

1964	UCLA 98, Duke 83

1968	UCLA 78, No Carolina 55

1974	NC State 76, Marquette 64

1977	Marquette 67, No Carolina 64

1978	Kentucky 94, Duke 88

1981	Indiana 63, No Carolina 50

1982	No Carolina 63, Georgetown 62

1983	NC State 54, Houston 52

1986	Louisville 72, Duke 69

1990	UNLV 103, Duke 73

1991	Duke 72, Kansas 65

TTom
17.4106RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWilkes county N.C.!Mon Apr 06 1992 20:165
17.4107Classic DilemmaSHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubMon Apr 06 1992 21:1118
 Prediction ...
 
 Either way tonight's game goes, the latest CrockWatch may or may not
 continue indefinitely.
 
 If Duke wins, that gives Krzyzewski a crystal clear advantage over His
 Snuffitude for ACC mastery.  Two straight titles, 33-7 lifetime Dance
 card, and the umpteen straight Final Fours.   And just 8 miles away, too.
 
 If Michigan wins, that gives Steve Fisher two NCAA titles in 3-plus
 seasons with two completely different yet immensely talented teams and
 that'll make Snuff's 1-for-31 look seriously rollward.   It would also
 make Fisher a scary 13-1 all-time in the NCAA's.
 
 Conference ties will have me rooting for Duke but the Snuff Bashers Legion
 just cain't lose tonight.  Cain't.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4108DECWET::METZGERWe'll always have Paris.Mon Apr 06 1992 22:304
If Michigan wins is Fisher > Bob ?

Metz
17.4109LUNER::BROOKSYeah, da Tew Yutes ....Mon Apr 06 1992 22:337
    re .4103
    
    Not too suprising ... UT women play a tremendous brand of basketball,
    and the UT men's program went into the sewer after Abe Lemons was fired
    and Bob Wetlitch took over .... if UT was a smaller school, they might
    have discontinued the program, but they staggered around until Penders
    came in and did a fantatastic job.
17.4110RAVEN1::B_ADAMSWilkes county N.C.!Tue Apr 07 1992 00:056
    
    	ON the game tonight....I predict the Fab Five by (5)! in the upset!
    
    	the Rines have nothing to lose!~
    
    B.A.
17.4111ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Tue Apr 07 1992 16:167
    re:.4037
    
    Hey weho you callin Crazy One in that note. I take it personally when
    that term is used in capitalized form to reply to anyone but myself :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    
17.4112Big10 Tom hails Steve Fisher's coaching debut!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Apr 07 1992 18:0864
    >If Michigan wins is Fisher > Bob ?
    
    Well, just with last year's recruiting class Steve racked up more
    talent than Bob does over a seven year span, so he's clearly the
    superior recruiter, no doubt about that.
    
    But I aim glad joe axed this probing question Metz.  For I spoke
    with dozens a Michigan alumni last night (real alumni, not the faux
    kind), and to a main by halftime they were in a state a shock, making
    their first small steps towards the ugly realization that Steve Fisher
    is another suit cut from the "coach" Bill Fritter mold.  
    
    True, Steve isn't an unsavory sort like Fritter, he seems like a real
    gentleman and a nice person.  But it was painfully clear that he was
    in over his haid last night trying to play a Duke-like game plan 
    instead a cranking up the running game where most 'Rine fans felt they
    coulda blown out the Devils.
    
    I rooted for Michigan and after 5 minutes was screaming for Fisher to
    make the obvious changes. Yeah, Webber's a stud but he's down there on
    the blocks with the game's best in Laettner (who also knows how to push
    the limits of physical play while avoiding fouls)... so why oh why did
    they play the halfcourt passing O when they:
    
    - had no picks
    - had no cutters (who could execute at the collegiate level)
    - had no crisp passing
    - had passive pass reception
    - had no inside 2nd passing
    - had abysmal shot selection
    
    The more they held it up and passed the worse they got.  Jalen Rose
    right now at least cain't run that type a offense against this type a
    competition.
    
    Michigan, IMNSHO, is virtually unbeatable when they get into that 
    running offense.  Dunno what Fisher was thinking, but if he wanted
    to run that offense he shoulda brought Talley in up front and benched
    Rose.
    
    He did finally bring Talley in, and after several passes worked for 
    a drive by Talley going up against Parks and Laettner and he got 
    stuffed *and* called for a bogus O-foul.  Next time down they passed
    for 30 seconds and sent poor Voskuil up against the same pair with the
    same sad results.  Meanwhile Webber is 20 feet from the hoop having
    rotated out with the passing sequence.
    
    Fisher was better first time 'round when he just sat there and went
    along for the ride and made occassional suggestions to Glen Rice.
    
    You could see it in the 'Rine alums' faces in the bars last night.
    These are people who've been watching fishbones disappear down gullets
    for years with Schembechler, then Fritter, then Moeller... and now
    Fisher.
    
    Nobody outrecruits Michigan in combined football/basketball, and after
    all these years the only Title they have to show for it they got when
    one choke-artist fired another and the third didn't have time to take
    the reins before the trophy slipped passed his best efforts and into
    that trophy case in Ann Arbor.
    
    Ugh.
    
    Big10 Tom
17.4113I'll take FisherSHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubTue Apr 07 1992 18:2610
 Fisher's game coaching might really sip (although just getting this team
 to the Final Two has to be recognized somehow) but he's a textbook in
 humility and compassion.   His consolations to his players as the clock
 wound down and his post-game words were both eloquent and right on target.
 
 Contrast Fisher's performance in defeat with a certain other "coach" who
 put on a sideshow after he got booted from the game and then stood by as
 his long-time assistant roughed up the cancer-stricken ref.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4114ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightTue Apr 07 1992 18:3115
    Joe must admit, though, that the Star Hells in this tournament
    put together a couple a games where they were able to dictate 
    the pace to their advantage.  Fisher  had the opposite effect on
    his ultra-talented squad (which is probably the most talented single
    squad ever, going back to the '84 Hells, or the '73 Walton team,
    or one a the Alcindor teams).
    
    Got to admit though that when Snuffer pulled Montross with about
    4 minutes to go and brought him back in with about a minute and a 
    half for that stupid offensive-defensive in-and-out up-and-down
    routine I woulda been mighty confused if it hadn't been for the
    rigorous theoretical training I have received over the past few
    years as a Anti.
    
    MrT
17.4115SASE::SZABOFrank Way is the write-in way!Tue Apr 07 1992 20:1014
    It's too easy to 2nd-guess a coach during and after a game when his
    game plan doesn't work at an optimum.  Michigan could've just as easily
    been down 20 at the half playing run 'n gun as they could've been up
    20.  Instead, they play even.  Favoring the Dukies (sorry Walt) to win
    it, I had a very worried feeling to start the 2nd half....
    
    I wouldn't pin the choke label on Fisher at all.  As much as the
    Michigan players before the game claimed that they felt no pressure
    what-so-ever, I think it was just that that caused their late 2nd-half
    collapse.  And, only experience will remedy this, which is why I think
    that they'll be back.  Plus, Fisher learned something too...
    
    Hawk
    
17.4116The numbersSHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubWed Apr 08 1992 17:3639
 If we dust off the 32-point system yet one more time, we see the following
 numbers from this year's Big Dance.
 
        Champ   Final 2   Final 4   Final 8   Sweet 16   2nd Round
        -----   -------   -------   -------   --------   ---------
 Duke   32      16        8         4         2          1
 UNC                                          2          1
 FSU                                          2          1
 Ga Tech                                      2          1
 Wake
 	ACC total:      70
 
 Mich           16        8         4         2          1
 IU                       8         4         2          1
 OSU                                4         2          1
 Mich St                                                 1
 Iowa                                                    1
 	Big 10 total:   54
 
 Kansas                                                  1
 OklaSt                                       2          1
 IowaSt                                                  1
 Missou                                                  1
 Nebraska
 Okla
 	Big 8 total:     6
 
 S Hall                                       2          1
 G'town                                                  1
 S'cuse                                                  1
 UConn                                                   1
 St Johns
 	Big East total:  6
 
 The Big Ten had stronger teams across the board but their three losses to
 Duke still puts the ACC on top again.   The Big Eight and Big East were
 almost total busts with Kansas the biggest flop.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4117DYPSS1::ROPERBRoper DTN-433-4336Wed Apr 08 1992 19:103
    Bob, where's the SEC?
    
    WILDCAT
17.4118MoreHYDRA::HAUSRATHNew grass on the fieldWed Apr 08 1992 19:342
    
    And where's the GMW?  
17.4119Didn't leave 'em out on purposeSHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubWed Apr 08 1992 19:5134
        Champ   Final 2   Final 4   Final 8   Sweet 16   2nd Round
        -----   -------   -------   -------   --------   ---------
 Ky                                 4         2          1
 Bama                                                    1
 LSU                                                     1
 Ark                                                     1
     SEC Total:  10
 
 Cinn                     8         4         2          1
 MemphSt                            4         2          1
 DePaul
     Great Midwest total: 22
 
 Did I miss any Great Midwest teams ???   Leaving out the SEC and the Great
 Midwest in the earlier note was not a deliberate snub.   This 32-point
 system goes back to three years ago when we raged on for a few months
 about top-ranking the conferences for the Eighties.   The debate swirled
 around the Big East, the ACC, and the Big Ten only.
 
 And a certain Po' noter (rhymes with "SrG") kept insisting that no matter
 what scale we used the Big Ten was tops since it had 3 titles from 1980-89
 and no one else had more than 2.   However, this 32-point system (which he
 himself proposed) put the Big East on top, followed by the ACC and the Big
 Ten was in 3rd thanks to a severe Final Four drought from 1982-86.   He's
 still licking those wounds.
 
 With the 1990,'91, and '92 seasons in the books, the ACC is far ahead of
 any other conference in the Nineties.  The ACC has had 5 outta 12 Final
 Four slots, 3 outta 6 Final 2's, and 2 champeenships.
 
 The Big Ten had a nice run this year and so did the Great Midwest ... very
 impressive for a first-year collection.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4120DYPSS1::ROPERBRoper DTN-433-4336Wed Apr 08 1992 20:004
    Thanks for explaining Bob.  Sounds like an objective way to judge
    relative conference strength.  
    
    WILDCAT
17.4121Nice Facks (tm) Bob...DECWET::METZGERWe'll always have Paris.Wed Apr 08 1992 20:0916
Looks like 1 team carrying the ACC. Probably a more statistical way of 
determining conference strength (if you had a large enough sample size)
would be to toss out the high and the low. 

You'd get a truer statistical representation that way.

Dan wouldda been proud of those Dastistics Bob Hunt......

Glenn....got any ideas how to accurately determine the strongest conference?

Of course T originally agreed to this 32 point system..so the jokes on him...


Metz
   
17.4122Glad you agreeSHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubWed Apr 08 1992 20:108
17.4123ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Apr 08 1992 20:1110
    >this 32-point system (which he himself proposed)
    
    Uh, Witchmeister, please keep in mind that you proposed this and
    I said go ahaid and enter it and once we looked at how the 
    weightings looked it "might" work - as TTom corroborated only a
    few short days ago.
    
    Shame on joe fibbery and quit it.
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom
17.4124More ...SHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubWed Apr 08 1992 20:2329
17.4125Where are your sources ???SHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubWed Apr 08 1992 20:268
17.4126Let's rank individual teams on the 32-point systemTOOK::BLOUNTWed Apr 08 1992 20:2716
    I think this 32-point system is good, in part because it rewards
    consistency when multi-year data is collected.
    
    I'd like to propose that someone (like our resident statistician,
    Mr. Hunt) collect this same data for a few select teams, over
    a specific time frame.  Personally, I would propose 20 years,
    and would include UCLA, Duke, Indiana, Georgetown, Michigan,
    NC State, UNC, Syracuse,....  I'd be fascinated to find out
    what the total score would be for these teams, all of which
    have been major factors in the final tournament, at least
    for some segment of this period.
    
    wanna tackle this?
    
    Meat
    
17.4127RUGBY1::wayShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Wed Apr 08 1992 20:3111
If I'm not mistaken, the 32point system was applied to all the NCAA tourneys
ever held, I think... MIght be wrong, but I remember a note where there
was a lot of tables and things....



And it's CrockWatch, Day ?



'Saw
17.4128Been done ... believe it or notSHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubWed Apr 08 1992 20:3521
 Meat, when it comes to pure number crunching in this conference, only one
 man can do the job ... John "Ninja" Hendry.
 
 I believe, during the apex of the raging debate in 1989, Ninj actually got
 hisself a hold of the NCAA record book and ran the numbers for every
 single team who ever played an NCAA tournament for all time.  I think he
 sat on the beach on vacation doing this ... he's got some problems, I
 know.  :-) :-)
 
 Bottom line, if I recall, was that the Big Ten has performed the best of
 all time.   MrT's thighs shuddered for a week after that one but he was
 forced to admit, by the same measurement, that the Big East ruled the '80s
 with the ACC in 2nd place and the Big Ten a distant 3rd.
 
 And with Duke the lead sled dog, the ACC is far out in front for this
 decade.
 
 Ninj, do you still have those numbers ???  If not, got any vaca-shone
 planned anytime soon ???  :-)
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4129PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollWed Apr 08 1992 20:357
17.4130RUGBY1::wayShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Wed Apr 08 1992 20:377
MrT's thighs shuddered...

And there was a run on Bounty at the grocery store....



'Saw
17.4131DYPSS1::ROPERBRoper DTN-433-4336Wed Apr 08 1992 20:383
    Sounds good Meat.  Throw in Kentucky too!
    
    WILDCAT
17.4132TOOK::BLOUNTWed Apr 08 1992 20:4312
    if the data has already been collected, then great.  But,
    I'm not interested in a comparison of conferences, only individual
    teams.
    
    yes, Kentucky should definitely be in there.
    
    I think having this data, even for a few of the obvious major
    teams, would help out a lot, because most of our debates
    aren't based on data, only gut feels for what the data really is.
    
    meat
    
17.4133FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Wed Apr 08 1992 20:5016
    I no longer have it on line.  After I posted it in a previous iteration
    of SPORTS, I blew it away because I didn't want to see it any more.  I
    don't even know if that previous iteration of SPORTS exists anymore.
    
    I do admit to doing it while I was on vacation but it was the only way
    I could get 4-6 hours of peace and quiet to get it done.  This included
    frequent interruptions to look up and check the scenery.
    
    It did show various teams but I don't remember the details.  It did
    show which conferences and teams were best in various decades and
    throughout history.  It was an exercise in madness.
    
    And Bob, say what you really mean - I'm the only one crazy enough to
    even try something like that.
    
    Ninj
17.4134ACCNinj ??? NinjCaught ???SHALOT::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubWed Apr 08 1992 20:553
 Yo Ninj, I thought you pounded the {Next Unseen} key on this note. :-)
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4135Just to make it officialSHALOT::MEDVIDit's just the way i smile, you saidWed Apr 08 1992 21:055
    
    
    Crockwatch Week II, Day III
    
    
17.4136PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollWed Apr 08 1992 21:072
    Bob, you know that old saw about being able to hear your name spoken in
    a whisper across the room at a crowded party.
17.4137FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Wed Apr 08 1992 21:488
    Depends on how sick I am of the rathole.  Right now, it's not too bad
    and I'm reluctant to skip it too much since there are good notes in
    here.
    
    Turns out I no longer have the raw data anyway, and I'm not going to do
    the work again.  Once was enough.
    
    Ninj
17.4138Need a laugh ???SHALOT::HUNTLovin' you's a man's job, baby ...Thu Apr 09 1992 02:3333
 Figured you guys could use a laugh ...  Here are two letters to the editor
 from "The Charlotte Observer" from the 8-Apr-1992 morning sports page. 
 These are typed verbatim.  The asterisks "* *" surround italics.
 
 "Duke No Dynasty Yet"
 
   Congratulations to Duke from a North Carolina fan on the greatest six
   years in your history.  But before you declare 'Dook' a dynasty, your
   darling Dick Vitale once said, "A dynasty must *dominate* its own state
   for a long period."
 
   Well, during your greatest seven years, coach Mike Krzyzewski and coach
   Dean Smith are dead even, 9-9 in head-to-head meetings.  The 10-year
   record is 14-11 in favor of North Carolina.  Want to go further?  Now
   that the NCAA diversion is over, you can go back to a more important
   task, that of chasing Carolina.  Such is life on Tobacco Road.
 
 "Montross Underrated"
 
   After reading the remarks about North Carolina's Eric Montross by Duke's
   Brian Davis on March 8:
 
    1. "He's no one's All-American."
    2. "He's not that good."
    3. "He's not even the best center in the conference."
 
   All I have to say to Davis is enjoy your playing now because you won't
   make it to the NBA, but Eric will.  In a few years Brian will be saying
   to Mr. Montross -- "Welcome to McDonald's, may I help you please?"
 
 For real, guys.  "NCAA diversion" ???   Way too funny.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4139Actually it's...SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesThu Apr 09 1992 11:583
       Crockwatch III, Day 'leven!
       I'm beginning to worry about the guy. Anyone heard from him??
                                   Denny
17.4140STRATA::CAPPELThu Apr 09 1992 12:199
    My favorite from the last week was the Cameron Crazies spontaneous
    chant that interrupted Coach K's speech after returning home and
    being honored.
    
    The chant was:
    
    Mike's got two, Dean's got one.  Mike's got two, Dean's got one.
    
    It went on for quite awhile....
17.4141too young for SERP right?7389::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Thu Apr 09 1992 12:2912
    I'm sorta worried to Denny.  It's not like ACC Chris to be outa here
    for so long.
    Anybody got his badge number?  I could run an instantaneous badge
    check in our security program to see if it's still active.
    
    If he's still with us, do yu suppose it's possible he's on a
    self-unproclaimed exile?  Is it something we said?
    
    I remain,
    concerned in these troubled times,
    Kev
    
17.4142Not badSHALOT::HUNTMike's got two, Dean's got one!Thu Apr 09 1992 12:413
 Catchy little cheer there, Cap.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4143Too funny!SASE::SZABOThu Apr 09 1992 12:4814
    Those were laughable articles, Bob.  Cracked me up where in the 1st
    paragraph, he said the last *6* years were Duke's greatest, then in the
    2nd, he said the last *7*.  Told me right there how mixed-up this po'
    person was...  :-)
    
    And, under Dean, I'm not so sure that Montross will be NBA material
    unless an NBA team with a great coach, such as a Don Nelson, takes a 
    chance on him figuring that he *might* develop into an NBA player. 
    Brian Davis may not be NBA material either, but I bet that under Mike's
    "system", he's got a great shot at getting picked than if he'd been
    stifled under Dean's "system".  That much is obvious anyway...
    
    Hawk
    
17.4144University of Never-Ending CrybabiesSHALOT::HUNTRoss Is My HossThu Apr 09 1992 12:577
 The one that had me the most rollward was the "NCAA diversion" line.  
 Typical Carolina-think.   Beat Duke in February and then eat popcorn
 watching 'em win it all in April ... and Duke's the one doing the chasing.
 
 Carolina fans are a species unto themselves.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4145RUGBY1::wayShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Thu Apr 09 1992 13:0117
Bob,

As we were discussing John "Statistics 'R Me" Hendry's most excellent
compilation of the 32-point must system, I was thinking of another
great piece of evidence that we had in here.

It was not quite as objective, but it was just as analytical.  It was
YOUR very own "Why Carolina Fans Love a Loser" and it dealt with the
mentality of the south and everything.


That piece, if you have it on line or feel like poking back through here,
was most informative, and might be something that Meat could profit from....



'Saw
17.4146Here you go, 'Saw ...SHALOT::HUNTRoss Is My HossThu Apr 09 1992 13:2175
17.4147ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightThu Apr 09 1992 13:2125
    ACChris is in abstentia not cuz a SNuffer's inevitable (and most
    Excellent) Sweet16 loss, but, as he has revealed to me in a secret
    transmission, cuz I broke our pact and revealed exactly what happened
    with that innocent college prank (which we now know was neither
    innocent nor mine).
    
    In a word, he's ashamed a hisself.  Should be too.
    
    re: silly-ace points system
    
    Nice try?  My source is the note itself, and TTom's righteous
    recollection a it.
    
    As I've explained over the years, point systems like this are good
    only for comparing groups over large samples.  If you wanna compare
    individual teams, or coaches, from the standpoint a donning the
    dangling "G" string, then the sport itself has a designated sole
    measurement.  (Hint: it's a T-word.)
    
    All this must be so cuz only one team cain win a Title; therefore
    if you're assaying whose the best conference over a year or period
    a years, it's necessary to look at non-Title rounds to pick up the
    entire conference memberships.
    
    MrT
17.4148RDOVAX::BRAKEThu Apr 09 1992 13:3311
    I agree with MrT on the point system. You could have, say, the Great
    Nortwest Conference sending Alaska A&T to the NCAA's. AA&T is the only
    school from that conference. Yet, say the Big 10 sends 4 teams and all
    four make it to the Elite 8. That's as far as they go.
    
    AA&T wins the whole enchalada. The point system would proclaim the
    Great Northwest Conference superior to the Big 10 which is very
    misleading.
    
    Rich
    
17.4149INvestigating further and in depth....7389::FARLEYSon,you can make hundreds o'dollars...Thu Apr 09 1992 13:3615
    
    Phew,
    
    Just did a phone dir of RHETT and seen a KNORR live and available
    so he's around anyway.  That's good.
    
    Therefore, either he's busy doing real work (that's good) or he's
    in exile (that's good/bad depending on your point of perspective).
    
    Hal Tried Hard(tm)
    
    I remain,
    Sherlock Holmes,
    Kev
    
17.4150Smiling happy faces in Chapel HellCTHQ3::LEARYBobHunt,David Copperfield of ::SPORTSThu Apr 09 1992 13:407
    Re. .4138
    Bob,
    I had to read that THREE times to finally believe it. The Gospel
    according to Blew. When's Carolina's nexted Kool Aid party?
    
    MikeL
    
17.4152More ...SHALOT::HUNTRoss Is My HossThu Apr 09 1992 13:4526
17.4153RUGBY1::wayShore,Schmidt,Orr,Espo,Cam,Moog,GOD!Thu Apr 09 1992 13:499
Bob,

Thanks for posting the Bobby Lee note.


I get chills every time I read that...


'Saw
17.4154T's standards are on the mark...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Apr 09 1992 13:5938
    
    > As I've explained over the years, point systems like this are good
    > only for comparing groups over large samples.  If you wanna compare
    > individual teams, or coaches, from the standpoint a donning the
    > dangling "G" string, then the sport itself has a designated sole
    > measurement.  (Hint: it's a T-word.)
    
    So correct, sir.  The 32-point system may be decent enough for examining
    conferences over, say, a decade, but in a single year it's got obvious
    problems with regard to sample size, bias introduced by the seeding
    process, etc.  There's just no way that you can reach rock-solid
    conclusions about conferences based on the couple of games per team 
    involved in a single-elimination tourney, especially where single games
    late in the tourney bring in big points due to the exponential format
    (did UNC of 1991 and Cincinnati of 1992 really demonstrate the strength
    of their conference with the results of their games?).  Many, many 
    non-conference games are played during the regular season that are not 
    simply nullified by the NCAA tournament.  The purpose of the NCAA 
    tournament is to determine the cream of the crop from the entire 
    country, not to rate conferences.
    
    I also think that for rating the lifetime achievement of individual 
    teams, programs, coaches, etc., the point value for winning the
    championship should be even higher (make it 48 or even 64 points). 
    The exponential progression up to the finals is nice, but there should
    be an additional bonus for fulfilling the ultimate goal of the
    tourney: winning it all, not just coming close.  I don't think anyone
    would argue that in a three-year period, winning it all and making the
    Final Four but losing the next two years is better than losing in the
    finals three times, but the total points awarded would be equal (and
    the three-time finals loser would accrue more points than the one-time
    champ if the champ failed to make it back to the Final Four.)  The 
    system greatly rewards the North Carolinas of the world who consistently 
    finish in the top four or eight but also consistently fail to bring it 
    all home...   
    
    glenn
    
17.4155More clarification...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Apr 09 1992 14:0917
    
 > But the point system *still* works over the long range.  It's a weighted
 > "power of 2" exponential system that starts from the first round and works
 > its way up.  Back in the UCLA days when the NCAA Tournament was a 32 team
 > chase, they did *NOT* score 32 full points in this system for winning the
 > title game.   They got 16 points (2 to the 5th power) for winning it.  
 > Duke gets 32 (2 to the 6th) for 1992's ring game since they won a 64 team
 > chase.
    
    Yikes!  The points awarded at the top of the scale should remain
    constant over the years.  After all, only one team per year wins a
    championship, no matter how many teams are invited.  It has *not*
    become twice as difficult to win the NCAA tourney because a team has 
    an opening round patsy now instead of a bye...
    
    glenn
    
17.4156FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu Apr 09 1992 14:126
    I did it both ways Glenn and it didn't make a significant amount of
    difference.  Also, I didn't really care about the result and still
    don't, but did it to answer the questions.  I won't do it again - I
    don't care enough to do it again.
    
    Ninj
17.4157Pac-8 perhaps 1 of the top 2 conferences then ...MIMS::ROLLINS_RThu Apr 09 1992 14:3315
> Switch "UCLA" for your "AA&T" example and you have exactly what happened
> during the Bruins' title romps in the '60s and '70s.   The Pac-8 (as it
> was back then) sipped big time but UCLA was dominant over the country.
 
  Actually, the Pac-8 did not sip big time back then.  In two of the 3
  Alcindor years at UCLA, USC ended up in the top 5.  In the last of the
  3 years, USC was the nation's #2 ranked club at the end of the regular
  season.  I believe they lost either 2 or 3 games, with 2 of the losses
  to UCLA (one in a Pac-8 playoff).  Oregon State also had a decent team,
  making the tournament the one year UCLA didn't in that long stretch from
  the Goodrich team to the Walton teams.

  The bottom of the Pac-8 wasn't very good, but the botom of the Big Eight,
  SEC, ACC, and Big 10 stunk it up pretty well, too, as I recall.
  
17.4158PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollThu Apr 09 1992 16:258
17.4159ACC seems thin despite its successFRETZ::HEISERit won't be long, soon you will seeThu Apr 09 1992 16:5612
    Re: ACC & NBA material
    
    I think of a single ACC NBA legend, besides Jordan, that deserves to be
    mentioned in the same sentence as Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Erving,
    etc.  Are there any more?
    
    Re: Duke & NBA material
    
    Laettner will follow the ways of past studs like Mark Alarie and Danny
    Ferry.
    
    Mike
17.4160Strange logic there, MikeSHALOT::MEDVIDit's just the way i smile, you saidThu Apr 09 1992 17:027
>    I think of a single ACC NBA legend, besides Jordan, that deserves to be
>    mentioned in the same sentence as Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Erving,
 				       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    And how many conferences dominate this list?   
    
    	--dan'l
17.4161NBA or so what?HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Apr 09 1992 17:0215
Mike,

We're talking college hooops here, I think. The fact that the ACC has
only produced on megastar has little if anything to do with whether its a
leading college hoops conference. Besides, you can say the same thing
about any other conference since the people you mentioned do not have too
many peers.

Now if we are to measure a conference's status by how many stars,
superstars, megastars, etc. are in the NBA then we might have another
thing all together. Currently, I think No Carolina has more NBAers than
any other program. Of course, you've seen what Dean has done with those
stars...

TTom
17.4162Correction for RichSTRATA::CAPPELThu Apr 09 1992 17:1726
  >Actually, the Pac-8 did not sip big time back then.  In two of the 3
  >Alcindor years at UCLA, USC ended up in the top 5.  In the last of the
  >3 years, USC was the nation's #2 ranked club at the end of the regular
  >season.  I believe they lost either 2 or 3 games, with 2 of the losses
  >to UCLA (one in a Pac-8 playoff).  Oregon State also had a decent team,
  >making the tournament the one year UCLA didn't in that long stretch from
  >the Goodrich team to the Walton teams.

Actually Rich you're wrong.  The Pac 8 only placed a team in the top 10
in the final rankings once from 1964-1968(except UCLA) and that was
Oregon State in 1964(a year in which UCLA won it).  From 1969 - 1975,
USC finished at #5 in the country in 1971, #20 in the country in 1970 and
#17 in 1974.  USC was not #2 the year you mentioned nor were they in the
top 5 in any of the Alcindor years.  They were in the top 5 in the year
in between Alcindor and Walton when UCLA was not as strong.

The Oregon St team of 66 barely got by Houston in their first game before 
being beaten by Utah.  Oregon St. also made the top 20 in 1975 at #18.

Other than a few rare appearances in the top 20(5 in 12 years by programs
other than UCLA), the PAC 8 was not impressive during those years in 
comparison with other conferences.

Glad to be of service

    
17.4163FRETZ::HEISERit won't be long, soon you will seeThu Apr 09 1992 17:188
>thing all together. Currently, I think No Carolina has more NBAers than
>any other program. Of course, you've seen what Dean has done with those
>stars...
    
    Yeah but there is a big drop from Jordan and Daugherty to the likes of 
    Rick Fox, Joe Wolf, and Walter Davis.
    
    I think Jordan and Daugherty made it despite Dean.
17.4164bigHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Apr 09 1992 17:219
I agree, a big drop. Walter Davis in his day was a big step ahead of Wolf
and Fox. Compare Walter's first couple of years with and it favorable to
most careers.

>    I think Jordan and Daugherty made it despite Dean.

You said a mouthful there. 

TTom
17.4165Not just JordanSHALOT::HUNTRoss Is My HossThu Apr 09 1992 17:379
 Other ACC megastars ...
 
 Before he slipped off into drug abuse oblivion, David Thompson was as
 great an NBA player as you were likely to find.
 
 Billy Cunningham was awfully good, too.   Bobby Jones, Buck Williams, Phil
 Ford, Bob McAdoo, ...  Plenty of *excellent* NBA players.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4166and Mark PriceISLNDS::REEVEThu Apr 09 1992 17:591
    
17.4167FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu Apr 09 1992 18:239
    Erving attended what was then a Yankee Conference school.  If you
    consider Erving one of the top 5 players in NBA history and therefore
    his conference is one of the top 5 in history and therefore his school
    is one of the top 5 in history, I'll take it.  Thankee.
    
    Ninj
    
    PS - UMass is undefeated vs Big East schools in both baseball and
    lacrosse this season so take that too, Big East!  :-)
17.4168UMASS :== SPORTS DYNASTY!AXIS::ROBICHAUDCokeIsTheRealThing-UhHuhThu Apr 09 1992 18:371
    
17.4169MIMS::ROLLINS_RFri Apr 10 1992 13:195
>    PS - UMass is undefeated vs Big East schools in both baseball and
>    lacrosse this season so take that too, Big East!  :-)

     But how are they doing in the Atlantic 10, where the games (at least
     baseball) really mean something ?
17.4170Best going homeHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Apr 10 1992 13:237
Just caught a little ditty about Ga Tech playing in the 1993 Tip-off
Classic. This means that Travis Best, who's from Springfield, will be
going home. The opponent wasn't named.

FWIW, UConn plays Purdue this year.

TTom
17.4171a laugher!JURAN::MCKAYFri Apr 10 1992 15:283
    tough luck for Purdue....8*)
    
    Jimbo
17.4172I'm suprised this wasn't asked sooner !LUNER::BROOKSYour mother's an astronaunt ...Mon Apr 13 1992 14:2312
    Question :
    
    No ACC Chris for a long time - even though he had nothing to be ashamed
    of since NC did not underacheive ....
    
    Then this guy "Meat" shows up in SPORTS as the thigh-shuddering fantasy
    of every NC/Dean basher ....
    
    Given the wizardy of VAX Notes, how can we know that Meat and ACC Chris
    are not one and the same eh ?
    
    Doc
17.4173I'm gittin worried!SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesMon Apr 13 1992 14:252
    Crockwatch III, Day FIFTEEN!!!
                                    Denny
17.4174Meat <> KnorrHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Apr 13 1992 14:277
I feel that we must come to the defense of the MeatMeister. Not only did
he actually go to No Carolina, he has actually shown some objectivity
about Dean.

Knorr and Big O the same person? Maybe. But not Meat.

TTom
17.4175how come you've never seen Meat and Chris together?TOOK::BLOUNTMon Apr 13 1992 16:0112
    Sorry to disappoint you, but....No, I am NOT ACChris in disguise.
    We have at least some things in common (like good taste in b-ball
    teams), but we are distinctly different people.  For one thing,
    I'm a true 'Heel alum, and he can only aspire to such lofty
    heights!
    
    re: 17.4138
    The logic is overwhelming!  How can anyone disagree with this
    astute analysis?
    
    Meat
    
17.4176ACCZingedSHALOT::HUNTRoss Is My HossMon Apr 13 1992 17:186
17.4177ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightMon Apr 13 1992 18:019
    Put simply, ACCrock cain note no more.  Send me mail if joe is
    wondering why.
    
    re: Purdue
    
    The Boilers will have the most dominating center in college 
    next year, Webber included, and should dog-walk Tech.
    
    MrT
17.4178but what about Montross?HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Apr 13 1992 18:585
T,

UConn plays Purdue, at least if'n you're talking about the Tip Off.

TTom
17.4179Another coach gone??ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Wed Apr 15 1992 15:066
    While driving in to work this morniong (late thismorning) I heard a
    snipet that ESPN was reporting that Dean Smith was going to call it
    quits within the next day or 2.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
17.4180He'd be lost wifout his domeSHALOT::HUNTHappy Happy, Joy JoyWed Apr 15 1992 15:083
 And do what ... run for the US Senate ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4181USCTR1::NAHEARNWed Apr 15 1992 15:346
    I also heard that!!  A friend of mine called with the news!!
    
    Snuffy worshipers....line up for the kool-aid!!!
    
    
    Nelly
17.4182DUGROS::ROSSSummertime in BubbavilleWed Apr 15 1992 16:0612
If you rearrange the letters in:
	
	North Carolina Tarheels

you get:


        "All has ancient terror, oh!"
                                     

Deep, huh?
    
17.4183Go DourRoss! Whatta Anagrammer!HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Apr 15 1992 16:305
RE: .4182

	NOTE OF THE YEAR

TTom
17.4184Must be a DROODMCIS1::DHAMELTreated like a king. Rodney KingWed Apr 15 1992 18:013
    
    If you rearrange the letters in DOUG ROSS you get "GOD SOURS".
    
17.4185MOREHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Apr 15 1992 18:121
DEAN SMITH :== MEAT HINDS
17.4186CTHQ3::LEARYBobHunt,David Copperfield of ::SPORTSWed Apr 15 1992 18:1910
    Hey TTom
    Tom Haas= SAT MOAH
              SHOT MAA
              SHAT MOA
    
    I like da last one
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    
17.4187SCHOOL::RIEUSupport DCU Petition CandidatesWed Apr 15 1992 18:252
    DHAMEL=DAM HEL
    HTH
17.4188earlierHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Apr 15 1992 18:264
Yes folks, back in my anti-comunistical days, I actually shat on Moa. Or
was it Mao? Or maybe even Moe?

TTom
17.4189This is fun !!!SHALOT::HUNTHappy Happy, Joy JoyWed Apr 15 1992 18:296
 Dean Smith :== Hand Smite
                Nads Hit Me
                This Me Dan
 		Shin Tamed 
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4190HTH :== HTHEARRTH::BROOKSI'll put my mouth where the money is!Wed Apr 15 1992 18:331
    AAAAAA :== AAAAAA
17.4191Rollward on the "Nads Hit Me"!SASE::SZABOWewease Bawabbas!Wed Apr 15 1992 18:391
    
17.4192biting the hand that smites youHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelWed Apr 15 1992 18:450
17.4193couple moreFRETZ::HEISERit won't be long, soon you will seeWed Apr 15 1992 19:003
    Bruce May = Buy Cream
    
    Episcopal = Pepsi Cola
17.4194ouchCTHQ3::LEARYSix, two, and even.Wed Apr 15 1992 19:024
    Here's a weak one
    
    Eric Montross= Tricsse Moron
    
17.4195More ...SHALOT::HUNTHappy Happy, Joy JoyWed Apr 15 1992 19:079
 Dean Smith :== Thin Dames
                Hints Made
                Named Shit
                Shined Mat
                Dish Meant
                Hasnt Dime
                Timed Nash
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4196LAGUNA::MAY_BRhow big is 20 quintillion?Wed Apr 15 1992 19:115
    re .4193
    
    You're cheating, Mike.  The one I liked was Muy Crabe.
    
    Brews
17.4197Schultz and Holland being investigatedHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelThu Apr 16 1992 16:559
The investigation into loans to Virginia athletes from boosters now is 
looking into a big loan current NCAA Czar Dick Shultz received while he 
was AD at UVa.

The investigation is also looking into a special annuity fund from 
boosters for Schultz and Terry Holland, who was the basketball coach 
during the time in question.

TTom
17.4198Looking awfully close for some harmSHALOT::HUNTHappy Happy, Joy JoyThu Apr 16 1992 18:0512
 While I certainly support the investigation into the Virginia booster
 club and want to see any and all possible transgressions addressed, I
 admit I am searching for a reason why benefits paid to an AD and a coach
 need to be investigated.
 
 Payments to players, yes.  But what's the big deal about payments to the
 staff ???   If they're paid professionals and they promise to tell the IRS
 about it, where's the harm ???  Haven't they chosen this career path (in
 part) for personal enrichment ???   Does the NCAA regulate staff
 compensation, too ???
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4199 ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYUNLV,SyrExcuse,UKaintuck,UVaThu Apr 16 1992 18:111
    
17.4200Different, yes, and maybe ethically worse...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Apr 16 1992 18:3037
                                                                      
> Payments to players, yes.  But what's the big deal about payments to the
> staff ???   If they're paid professionals and they promise to tell the IRS
> about it, where's the harm ???  Haven't they chosen this career path (in
> part) for personal enrichment ???   Does the NCAA regulate staff
> compensation, too ???
    
    I know there are rules about what assistant coaches can be paid, what 
    bonuses they can receive, and *where the money comes from*, and I 
    wouldn't be surprised if the same holds for head coaches and athletic 
    directors, too (some of the rules may only have to do with disclosure 
    of benefits, which maybe Virginia and Schultz wanted to skirt for image
    reasons related to the priority of athletics at the University of
    Virginia).  All I know is that Barry Switzer and Charley Pell were 
    nailed in part for offenses related to their assistants, but given their 
    personal situations as non-NCAA presidents, they were naturally (and 
    justifiably) presumed to be sleazeballs for knowingly breaking these 
    rules...
    
    The coaches' compensation rules aren't in place so much to maintain the
    amateur ideal as with the athletes (but you really have to stretch the
    imagination to justify why they shouldn't be), but rather because the 
    NCAA member organizations have put some cost controls in place.  If 
    schools break these rules to compensate a coach or official beyond what 
    is permitted, they are effectively gaining a competitive advantage.
    
    I would say that if the current NCAA president was knowingly breaking
    NCAA rules while at Virginia by accepting under-the-table money from
    boosters, no less, then that's serious business.  If he did and the
    NCAA lets him slide, it would only highlight the hypocrisy of a system
    that comes down hard on a poor kid who accepts some pocket change to 
    play a game but has no problem with million-dollar coaches and ADs.
    Amateurism, indeed...
    
    glenn
      
    
17.4201Still searching for somethingSHALOT::HUNTHappy Happy, Joy JoyThu Apr 16 1992 19:0735
17.4202FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu Apr 16 1992 19:0818
    One set of rules has to do with limits on staff size.  Coaching staffs
    are limited to a certain amount of full-time coaches, a certain amount
    of part-time coaches (the definition of part-time being full-time work
    but a small percentage of the salary paid to a full-timer) and a
    certain amount of Graduate Assistants (who not only have smaller
    salaries than part-time coaches but who also must be taking a certain
    minimum amount of credits in the universities graduate school).
    
    There's nothing wrong with helping these guys find a part-time job on
    campus or in the vicinity to supplement their salaries.  There is
    something wrong (at least in the eyes of the NCAA) with using a slush
    fund or something similar to supplement their salaries because then
    technically they become full-time coaches - and that's a violation.
    
    I have no idea why an Athletic Director being paid in a different way
    would be a problem.
    
    John
17.4203Important because it has to do with institutional corruption...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Apr 16 1992 19:2933
17.4204Bob "Witch" Hunt, defender a crooks. HAa.ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYOklahoma,SMU,Illinois,UG,UVaThu Apr 16 1992 19:321
    
17.4205More ...SHALOT::HUNTHappy Happy, Joy JoyThu Apr 16 1992 20:0869
17.4206I'm real confused hereSHALOT::MEDVIDNew Dream Date LogThu Apr 16 1992 20:1413
    Glenn makes sense and Bob makes sense.  Somebody know the actual rules
    about head coach and AD compensation before we have to read any more
    multi-liners.
    
    Gotta agree with one point Bob made.  Compare the shoe contracts and
    free cars that the ACC coaches get to say the ones the MAC coaches get. 
    That's as unfair as any money coming in from a booster club, but the
    NCAA doesn't regulate them.  
    
    Because of this, Tark had an unfair advantage at UNLV over the rest of
    his own conference, yet that was never in question.
    
    	--dan'l
17.4207Bad news for Duke fans...RAVEN1::B_ADAMSLet's visit Clay Earle's circle!Thu Apr 16 1992 20:2713
    Hot off the press...

    	Duke's Christian Laettner is being investigated by the NCAA for
    selling his College diary to the magazine "G.Q".  If found guilty,
    Duke may have to forfeit the season along with the Championship it won.


    	Seems Christian wanted it to be kept a secret till he hit the
    NBA..but GQ jumped the gun...

    Could get interesting...

    B.A.
17.4208If it went down at OU or Vegas, there would be outrage...NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Apr 16 1992 20:4729
    
    > Gotta agree with one point Bob made.  Compare the shoe contracts and
    > free cars that the ACC coaches get to say the ones the MAC coaches get. 
    > That's as unfair as any money coming in from a booster club, but the
    > NCAA doesn't regulate them.  
    
    I think the advertising perks are ridiculous, too, but there's still
    something inherently wrong with a coach or an AD taking money from
    organizations that are forbidden to deal with players precisely 
    because of the corrupting influence they have historically had (rules
    or not, this is my personal Jerry Brown-style opinion of something that
    is seriously wrong in college sports).  There's something doubly wrong 
    with a NCAA president, who's supposed to have a responsibility to 
    enforce the rules pertaining to the conduct of the member schools with
    these organizations, at the same time being in financial hock to them.
    
    Let's put it this way: Bob Knight may be taking money from Domino's and
    that may be pretty sleazy, but there's absolutely no risk that Domino's
    holds anything over his head regarding some free pizzas they might want
    to slip to his star player, because they don't care about his star 
    player.  The issue is conflict of interest.  Booster clubs are personas 
    non grata to the NCAA...
        
    My assumption all along has been that the NCAA does have rules covering 
    the conduct of Schultz and Holland, or they wouldn't be investigating 
    the charges, right?
    
    glenn
    
17.4209Another datapoint ...SHALOT::HUNTHappy Happy, Joy JoyThu Apr 16 1992 21:049
17.4210C'mon, T, you can do betterSHALOT::HUNTHappy Happy, Joy JoyThu Apr 16 1992 22:5417
17.4211CUPMK::DEVLINGoodbye Loooooiiieeeee!Fri Apr 17 1992 13:466
Interesting to see how the Laetner thing is handled.  Like with his foot-stomping,
I'll guess nothing.  Now, of course, when Greg Anthoney made some money on the
side, the NCAA came down hard, but like Sellers, Anthony has a better tan
than Chrissy, and UNLV was not a glamour school full of WASP's.

JD
17.4212CNTROL::CHILDSAnybody but the LakersFri Apr 17 1992 13:597
 got that right JD. I'm very interested. More importantly does Vegas pay
 off on winning Michigan stubs?

 ;^)

 will K refuse to raise the championship banner?
17.4213ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYOklahoma,SMU,Illinois,UG,UVaFri Apr 17 1992 14:5522
    You're so right, JD.  I'd heard about the coddling of the Blew 
    Devils but didn't fully understand the NCAA's unwavering commitment
    to Duke until I saw the outrageous preferential treatment they got
    at the Dome as far as the seating arrangements.
    
    The word is that CBS loves Duke cuz a the academics.  But if you
    look at the declared majors of the Duke players one wonders why it
    wasn't Indiana who got to exclusively place a student section behind
    a basket.
    
    If this were a state school and the protaganist were a black kid the
    NCAA'd be kicking him up and down the aisles.  But this is Duke, and
    it has to do with a pretty boy white kid, and CBS paid their billion
    dollars and there'll be no single standard on this.
    
    What wierds me out is that I first learn of these Laettner rumors from
    a Medvid note last month and now I see Laettner quoted, publicly mind
    you, that he "loves GQ."  
    
    That's enough for me.  Bingo!
    
    MrT
17.4214PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollFri Apr 17 1992 15:042
    If writing an article for a magazine is against NCAA rules, then I
    think the NCAA needs to rethink their policies.
17.4215oral is OK?HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Apr 17 1992 15:1416
Duke is saying that they cleared the arrangement with NCAA and ACC
officials to determine if it was legal under the rules. Duke claims both
said go fer it.

One thing that bothers me is that apparently it's OK to have a verbal
contract but not a written contract. Supposedly, Laettner verbally - or
was it orally? - agreed with GQ to keep a_audio diary. He hasn't been
paid and won't be paid until it's published. The idea was that no money
was had until after his eligibity was over.

Like Virginia, the NCAA will wait on the school's investigation.

Meanwhile, poor Ma Laettner is still sporting her neck brace and
seriously emoting this turn of events.

TTom
17.4216NCAA can prove themselves non-hypocritcal hereSHALOT::MEDVIDNew Dream Date LogFri Apr 17 1992 15:1414
    That's a very interesting and appropriate point, JD.  I will also be
    interested to see if a double standard is applied.
    
    Keep in mind the facts, though.  Laettner was not paid by GQ nor did he
    sign any contract.  He was requested to record his thoughts and he will
    publish an article in GQ's fall edition.  He will probably be paid
    about $3000 to do so and that is the going rate for any first-time
    writer in such a magazine.
    
    Nothing was ever done in the UNLV case except a heaped amount of
    criticizm and an investigation into the matter.  The same is being done
    in this case.
    
    	--dan'l
17.4217ill-logicHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Apr 17 1992 15:196
Back to JDs note, I though Greg Anthony got the major shaft. The guy
showed a little entrepreneruial initiative and started a company.
Evidently it's OK to set up getting money if you don't sign anything and
don't take any money for it until after the season.

TTom
17.4218STRATA::CAPPELFri Apr 17 1992 15:406
    
    Let's not forget one of the all-time great NCAA punishments...
    
    Steve Alford being suspended for one game for allowing his picture
    to be used for a charity calender(he did not receive any money).
                                                     
17.4219STRATA::CAPPELFri Apr 17 1992 15:5220
    
    It will be very interesting to see how the NCAA rules based on
    what others have brought up...
    
    First you have the flagrant foul Laettner comitted which went
    unpunished even though a similar type foul resulted in suspension
    for Sellers from UConn.
    
    Next you have a situation in which a business major from UNLV got
    his career going before graduation(which is what Laettner is doing)
    in which Anthony had to either give up his business or his scholarship.
    
    How they handle this situation will be interesting as the NCAA has
    certainly dug it's own grave.  It's a no win situation, punish
    Laettner/Duke and they will be criticized for having petty rules
    since there was really no harm done here or don't punish him and
    they will be criticized for having double standards(which would be
    true).
    
    Cap
17.4220The NCAA needs to look in a mirrorSHALOT::MEDVIDNew Dream Date LogFri Apr 17 1992 16:0517
>    Next you have a situation in which a business major from UNLV got
>    his career going before graduation(which is what Laettner is doing)
>    in which Anthony had to either give up his business or his scholarship.
    
    The difference here is that the NCAA ruled that Anthony was using his
    status as a UNLV basketball player to make money while he was still
    playing.  That, in their eyes, was against the rules.  
    
    Laettner has made no money to date.  
    
    On ESPN lasted night, mom Laettner said something to the effect of, "I
    can't believe this is happening.  For four years we've been turning
    down people who wanted to buy us no more than a can of soda for fear it
    would ruin his eligibility."
    
    	--dan'l
    
17.4221Petty rule, but irrelevant to Duke...NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Apr 17 1992 17:1314
    
    Where's the double standard?  Even if it's concluded that Laettner was
    using his status as an NCAA player to make some money, he's already
    finished with his career so they can do whatever they want with his
    scholarship.  UNLV forfeited *no* games due to the Anthony situation,
    and the NCAA only dealt with Anthony personally.  Laettner's situation 
    is the same as that of a player who illegally signs with an agent before 
    he graduates but where that fact remains undisclosed until later on: it 
    might stink because he maybe should have known better, but the NCAA is 
    powerless to do anything about it, and it's stupid to punish the school 
    for a player's actions which they have no control over...

    glenn
     
17.4222ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYOklahoma,SMU,Illinois,UG,UVaFri Apr 17 1992 17:188
    >and it's stupid to punish the school for a player's actions over 
    >which it had no control.
    
    Ahhhh, the old "I didn't know" Reagan defense.  Say, Glenn, did you
    by any chance attend the University of Oklahoma?
    
    MrT
    
17.4223just say noHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Apr 17 1992 17:1914
Glenn,

The double standard would be if the catch was actually receiving money
during eligibility. No one told Greg Anthony if he just waited before he
took any money it would be fine. That may be what, in effect, they're
saying about Laettner.

And I seem to recollect the NCAA retroactively punishing schools for
having players sign early with agents. In any case, this is spelled out
clearly as an infraction.

The lesson is clear: don't *SIGN*.

TTom
17.4224This is *serious*, as opposed to, say, the Illinois car loans...NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Apr 17 1992 17:2816
                             
    >>and it's stupid to punish the school for a player's actions over 
    >>which it had no control.
    
    > Ahhhh, the old "I didn't know" Reagan defense.  Say, Glenn, did you
    > by any chance attend the University of Oklahoma?
    
    No I didn't, but what the hail are you talking about?  We're not
    talking about ol' Barry Switzer looking the other way as some
    sleazeball booster turns over the keys to a brand spanking new car that
    finds its way all over campus, we're talking about a secret diary for 
    GQ with no money exchanging hands, ferchrissakes.  How's Duke supposed 
    to have some control over that?
    
    glenn
    
17.4225MONGUS::BRYDIEThat's when I reach for my revolverFri Apr 17 1992 17:346
    >>  How's Duke supposed to have some control over that?
    
        They're not, Glenn. Duke's only crime is that they kicked some
        serious Big Ten ass. So now the vanquished are jumping on every
        little chance to snipe at them but that's life at the top.    
    
17.4226FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Fri Apr 17 1992 17:4040
    If Laettner got no money for the diary, then the NCAA has no business
    being involved, just like I thought it had no business being involved
    when Steve Alford posed for that calendar.
    
    If Laettner did get money for the diary, then yes, it's the school's
    fault.  According to the NCAA rules, the school is responsible for all
    actions of anyone connected with the school - students, employees,
    boosters, fans, anyone - regardless of whether the school knows about
    what's going on or not.  It's just like being a parent - while your
    child is a minor, you are responsible for all actions done by that
    minor, whether you know about them or not.  Much as I disagree with the
    NCAA rule in this area, it does have one useful benefit - the school
    cannot plead ignorance.
    
    I don't know how much of a punishment is justified in this case.  Duke
    claims its Athletic Department checked it out and found no conflict. 
    If that's the case then the whole thing is overblown.  They can't do
    anything to Laettner anyway - his eligibility is over.  Taking away the
    title is unduly harsh, given the nature of the "crime".  In fact, given
    the nature of the crime, I think any punishment is out of line.  Then
    again, I think the NCAA has its head up its collective butt and needs
    to have its rules rewritten to make them simpler to understand and
    follow.  Coaches have said they probably inadvertently commit several
    rules infractions every year, and it's only because the rules are
    confusing and contradictory.
    
    For those of you who don't know what happened to Steve Alford, a
    sorority on the Indiana campus published a calendar to raise funds for
    charity called "The Gorgeous Men of IU" or something like that.  They
    asked Alford to pose for it.  Alford received no money but didn't clear
    it with the Athletic Department.  Alford said he asked the sorority to
    make sure it wouldn't affect his eligibility, the sorority claimed he
    did no such thing.  Irregardless, it was a NCAA violation and Alford
    was suspended for a game - against Kentucky.
    
    John
    
    PS - If Greg Anthony's business at UNLV was legitimate and founded with
    money raised legitimately by himself, then the NCAA had no business
    being involved there either.
17.4227 GRANPA::DFAUSTNetworkin' the USA '92 TourFri Apr 17 1992 17:4120
    What if he had used his basketball skills and fame and verbally agreed
    to dign with an agent after the NCAA tourney? Isn't that similar to
    what's happened here? I don't think that GQ wanted Laettner for his
    literary skills, only for being a basketball insider. Maybe his final
    payoff isn't as miuch, but the principle is the same. Does the name
    Howard Porter ring any bells? The Villanova player from the early 70s
    didn't take any money before the season was over but did agree to terms
    with an agent. 'Nova was forced to vacate their final loss in the NCAA
    tourney and Porters records have been sticken from the books.
    
    While it does seem minor and picky because of the dollar value
    associated with the offense, Duke, the ACC and Laettner should have all
    known better. The NCAA is quoted in todays Philly papers saying a
    verbal deal is the same as a written one and they are both against the
    rules. While making Duke forfiet every game they played with Laettner
    this year seems severe, keeping them as NCAA champs with an ineligible
    player doesn't seem quite fair either. 
    
    Dennis
    
17.4228do as I say...HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Apr 17 1992 17:4813
Yeah,

Just tell that agent you expect the first check the second week in April
and everything is fine :-(. Better not do it over the phone since that
might be tapped.

>    PS - If Greg Anthony's business at UNLV was legitimate and founded with
>    money raised legitimately by himself, then the NCAA had no business
>    being involved there either.

That's what happened. Legal money. Legal business. No laws broken.

TTom
17.4229GotchaSHALOT::HUNTHappy Happy, Joy JoyFri Apr 17 1992 17:5312
17.4230That chapter is already written...NAC::G_WAUGAMANFri Apr 17 1992 17:5316
                                              
    > While making Duke forfiet every game they played with Laettner
    > this year seems severe, keeping them as NCAA champs with an ineligible
    > player doesn't seem quite fair either. 
      
    Please... regardless of what may or may not have happened at Villanova
    in the late 1970s, those days are over.  In the past few years, scores 
    of players have freely admitted to signing with agents before their
    eligibility had expired and while maybe the schools were technically in 
    violation, the NCAA has taken no action in these cases.  The reason: 
    they realize that the schools have no practical control over such 
    infractions and if they enforced the rules by declaring forfeitures, 
    there wouldn't be any teams left standing...
    
    glenn
         
17.4231CUPMK::DEVLINGoodbye Loooooiiieeeee!Fri Apr 17 1992 18:0713
All of this is just more fodder about how stupid the NCAA is.  As anyone who
has had to sit through the NCAA lectures, and then sign the papers before 
competing each season can tell you - they ban just about everything.  

And given that Laetner isn't stupid - he had to know that what he was doing
was very close to the edge.  

He used his standing as a_athlete to get ahead - i.e. a paying gig for GQ.

Nothing will happen - but the NCAA has to either change its rules, or enforce
them effectively and evenly.

JD
17.4232maybeHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Apr 17 1992 18:086
Actually some dictionaries list "irregardless" as a word. It's a
portmanteau of "irrespective" and "regardless".

But, unless Ninj says it, I don't think it's a word;-)

TTom
17.4233FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Fri Apr 17 1992 18:154
    I never said I was perfect when it came to my grammar and writing
    except you'll never see me use an apostrophe where I shouldn't.
    
    Ninj
17.4234ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYOklahoma,SMU,Illinois,UG,UVaFri Apr 17 1992 18:455
    "Portmanteau?!"
    
    Jeesuz, TTom, you're quite the intellectual eh?  
    
    MrT
17.4235Poor Doug Ross. I should turn him in to Spy MagANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYOklahoma,SMU,Illinois,UG,UVaFri Apr 17 1992 18:4810
    You cain get a dictonary that'll list anything.
    
    I'll never forget how embarrassed I was for Doug Ross when it
    turned out he didn't know the difference between "loathe" and
    "loath" and he took a run at me and my Webster's Unabridged
    with this American Heritage he picked off a sec'ys desk.
    
    I felt terrible for him that day.  STill do.
    
    MrT
17.4236STRATA::CAPPELFri Apr 17 1992 18:5019
    
    I think it will be interesting to see if a double standard does exist
    with the NCAA.  The NCAA basically harassed and threatened both UNLV
    and Greg Anthony over his perfectly legitimate business and he was 
    pushed into giving up his legitimate business.  It is a very similar
    situation with Laettner, who used his fame and noteriety as a Duke
    star to reach an oral agreement with a magazine to publish his diary.
    
    I personally think that both Laettner and Anthony deserve(d) no
    punishment whatsoever.  I'm just interested to see if they let this
    slip by unpunished after ruling on a similar case last year(just as
    they had done with the Sellers/Laettner flagrant foul where I also 
    thought that Sellers should be unpunished but since he was punished
    the precedent should have caused Laettner to be as well).
    
    The NCAA has always been a classic organization ruled by the double
    standard(at least in my opinion).
    
    Cap
17.4237twas brilligHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Apr 17 1992 19:065
re: Portmanteau

Hardly a_intellectual, T. Just a fan of Alice.

TTom
17.4238PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollFri Apr 17 1992 19:356
17.4239a very big Huh?HBAHBA::HAASMental ModelFri Apr 17 1992 19:366
So since the refs didn't call anything, they punished Sellers and since
they gave Laettner a technical than he didn't have to sit out?

Mac, are you advocating this or just trying to explain it?

TTom
17.4240STRATA::CAPPELFri Apr 17 1992 20:1013
    
    I firmly believe that Sellers would have been punished even if the
    Refs had called a flagrant foul on the play.
    
    In my opinion the 'refs calling a foul on one but not the other' is a 
    poor excuse to hide a double standard and an unpopular decision
    (suspending Sellers).
    
    The NCAA was not going to suspend a meal ticket(Laettner), whether
    it was justified or not.  Sellers wasn't a meal ticket, so he got the
    boot...
    
    Cap
17.4241not even a wrist slapHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Apr 20 1992 13:2312
The NCAA did as predicted, nothing.

The loophole in the Laettner non-contract was that no contract was signed
and no "promise" to publish the diary. Yeah, right, like QG after
Laettner won PoY and his second straight banner wasn't going to publish
it.

In any case the NCAA has set a very bad - in my opinion - precedent by
their definitions of contracts and when you can get your money out of
'em. 

TTom
17.4242More ...SCNDRL::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubMon Apr 20 1992 17:3416
Duke is claiming (in print) that they asked the NCAA for an "a priori" ruling 
on Laettner's diary way back in the fall before the season began when GQ 
first approached him with the idea.  The NCAA confirms that they gave their 
consent then .. on the basis that there was no contract and no guarantee of 
publication at that time.

For that reason, I'm inclined to give Duke a little more benefit of the 
doubt.  Apparently, this was not something that caught everyone by surprise 
just lasted week.  It looks like they were pro-active about it.

Yes, I too think the NCAA looks hypocritical here in allowing Laettner to 
pursue this avocation after having forced Greg Anthony to give up his lasted 
year.  But it does look to me like Duke did the right thing at the right 
time.

Bob Hunt 
17.4243pay me later, maybeHBAHBA::HAASMental ModelMon Apr 20 1992 17:499
The newspaper that started this round of controversy had interviewed
someone from GQ who said that a contract had been signed, which is a
clear NCAA violation (oxymoron?). That was the basis of the story. As
they got into it, it became apparent that no contract was signed, that
Duke had checked it out with the ACC and the NCAA, and, perhaps most
importantly, there was at least the appearance that the diary might not
be published.

TTom
17.4244ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYOklahoma,SMU,Illinois,UG,UVaTue Apr 21 1992 16:4623
    These analogys between Laettner and Anthony are ridiculous.
    
    Laettner, a pretty boy sociology major hunk wildly popular with human
    male homosexual sports fans (a big chunk a GQ's market), was/is 
    perfectly capable of keeping a diary.  True, the NCAA allowed him 
    to sell a deal that'll net him $50-100K against the rules, but, as 
    with his Sellers'like stomping, when it comes to Duke the rules simply
    don't apply. [CBS]
    
    Anthony, a none too pretty sociology major, walked into business
    deals that veteran businessmen with MBAs typically spend ten or more
    years positioning themselves for.  Clearly he was set up with these
    deals as indirect payment for his basketball services by UNLV boosters
    seizing on the amazing fact that he actually passed the real estate boards
    - a rare intellectual feat accomplished by only 14,258,932 homemakers
    with high school degrees over the years.
    
    In other words, and in light of their expertise in higher education,
    the NCAA determined that while a sociology major is indeed capable of 
    talking into a dictaphone he's probably not able to walk into multimillion
    commercial real estate deals just after obtaining his real estate license. 
    
    MrT
17.4245LUNER::BROOKSHere's a story/Of a babe named Brady ...Wed Apr 22 1992 14:161
    So T, are you going to give up your gift subscription to GQ ?
17.4246AnthonyDEMING::MCKAYWed Apr 22 1992 15:298
    T 
    	I didn't know about his real estate dealings but Anthony was the
    pres/ceo of a company that made/distributed T-shirts.  As I remember
    he wasn't making a killing but he liked it enough to forfeit his
    scholarship so that he could still play basketball.  So I imagine
    he was doing fairly well.
    
    Jimbo
17.4247Laettner lights it upSHALOT::MEDVIDWho's got segmented eyes?Thu Apr 30 1992 17:379
    Christian Laettner won the 3-point shootout in the ACC All-Star Classic
    in Charlotte last night.  
    
    So, he's big, has an attitude, has inside moves, and an outside shot. 
    As far as the Hornets are concerned, Shaq will make me ecstatic, Alonzo
    will make me happy, and pretty boy will make me grin.
    
    	--dan'l
    
17.4248ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYJessica Fletcher: Serial Killer!Thu Apr 30 1992 19:168
    I doubt that Alonzo Sneering will be as good as the other two.  
    He's relatively small and is slow and is no good on the open court,
    which is key in the NonBA.
    
    I think Christian, much as I hate him, has a legitimate shot to end
    up having a better career than Shack.  Could be another Bird.
    
    MrT
17.4249they said that about Danny Ferry tooFRETZ::HEISERask meThu Apr 30 1992 19:523
>    up having a better career than Shack.  Could be another Bird.
    
    
17.4250SHALOT::MEDVIDWho's got segmented eyes?Thu Apr 30 1992 20:2310
    I think the combination of Alonzo Mourning and Larry Johnson is
    downright thigh shuddering.  But I ain't gonna complain one bit if
    Laettner ends up in Charlotte.
    
    On a pregame interview last night, a local sportscaster asked Laettner
    if he would like to play for the Hornets.  He said he'd love to play
    here, but his attitude is to keep an open mind and be happy any place
    he is chosen to go to.  
    
    	--dan'l
17.4251CNTROL::CHILDSVanilla Trainwreck-What a Band!Fri May 01 1992 13:097
 Hey T, the open floor's not everything in the NBA or NonBA as your prefer.
 Mourning will be just fine thanks and could have a better career than both
 Shack or Laettner. He certainly got a better post up game than both of them
 and IMO is the better defensive player.

 mike
17.4252STRATA::CAPPELThu May 21 1992 12:4225
    Damn wish ACChris was here to discuss this gem I found the other
    night...
    
    Was browsing through Howard Cosell's most recent book at the bookstore
    and found a reference to Phil Ford in the index.  Went to look it up
    and was amazed at what I saw.
    
    Seems that Cosell was interviewing Tree Rollins who was discussing 
    the recruiting wars in college b-ball.  Tree said that he had received
    $60,000 to play under Tates Locke's corrupt program at Clemson.  He
    said that they were close to signing Phil Ford but were unable to sign
    him up(I think $90,000 was offered). 
    
    Phil said to Tree that he was turning down the opportunity to play
    at Clemson because HE GOT A BETTER DEAL AT NORTH CAROLINA.
    
    Maybe in Dean's younger days he wasn't the saint that he has been built
    up to be and the NCAA turned the other cheek because North Carolina
    was a marquee program(just as the NCAA overlooked UCLA's strongly
    suspected transgressions).
    
    I guess will never know, but it sure sounds like NC cheated and still 
    came up choking on the chicken bone..... :-)
    
    Cap
17.4253call to armsHBAHBA::HAASWTOE RadioThu May 21 1992 13:007
I wish this came from a more credible source than Tree Rollins.  For a
lot of other people, the Cosell tie-in doesn't help much, either.

But, where's the Big O and Meat? Get in here fellas and defend Dean the
Divine.

TTom
17.4254in our replyHBAHBA::HAASWTOE RadioThu May 21 1992 14:3433
from Cap/.4252

>    Damn wish ACChris was here to discuss this gem I found the other
>    night...

from the mystery non-noter:

"> HE GOT A BETTER DEAL AT NORTH CAROLINA

Yea, like getting to play for the maistro, Dean Smith, who taught him the
ropes of the game, thereby enabling him to be_a NBA breadwinner for 
numerous years.  Also got his degree and taught him a thang or 2 about
coaching, which are a few ingredients that will land him a head coaching
job somewhere someday.  (Just hope it isn't replacing Dean though.  I
want Roy Williams for that task ...)


- ACC Chris"

Note to all:

The sentiments above are not those of this here noter poster. My personal
thoughts on the matter are:

 - Phil Ford was the best player that Dean has ever had. I'm talking
about when he was in college. I know that Jordan won a title while he
was with Dean and was POY and all, but my vote goes to Ford. The only
one who comes close, IMHO, is James Worthy.

 - The fact that Phil Ford teams never won the NCAA title speaks volumes
of what Dean has to do to keep from winning it all.

TTom
17.4255STRATA::CAPPELThu May 21 1992 14:588
    There is an afterlife!!!!
    
    I knew I could get a response from the beyond..... :-)
    
    <Insert Twighlight Zone Theme>
    
    
    
17.4256Dean and his impeccable recordTUXEDO::BLOUNTThu May 28 1992 18:1515
    No, I haven't fallen off the earth, or taken the package.
    I've just been too busy to worry about the latest rantings
    of the Dean-haters...:-)
    
    Re: the impeccable source named Tree Rollins.
    I'm a believer in the principal that you can't keep a big
    secret for a long time. In other words, I wouldn't be surprised
    if Dean had technically violated some recruiting rule over the
    last 30 years.  But, if he were truly running a crooked operation,
    it would have come out long before now.  Where there's smoke,
    there's usually fire.  And, there hasn't been a wisp of smoke
    around Dean!
    
    Meat
    
17.4257logical, kingHBAHBA::HAASWTOE RadioThu May 28 1992 18:2414
>                      -< Dean and his impeccable record >-

>    ... In other words, I wouldn't be surprised
>    if Dean had technically violated some recruiting rule over the
>    last 30 years.  ...

Q.E.D. NOT (tm)

And speaking of impeachable, I saw where King Rice will be a_assistant
coach at Oregon under new coach Jery Green. Rice, it should be noted, was
voted most inspirational player by his teammates, for his performance on
and off the court, one would presume.

TTom
17.4258FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu May 28 1992 19:154
    Always plenty of smoke around Dean, polluting everyone's air and
    setting a fine example for his players.
    
    John
17.4260Ross Index strikes again?HBAHBA::HAASWTOE RadioWed Jun 03 1992 18:430
17.4261What's DIS? Is that like the Digital CIA or something?SHALOT::MEDVIDPenguins: 91 &amp; 92 NHL Champs!Wed Jun 03 1992 19:181
    
17.4262CAMONE::WAYTwo Bullets and a LadyWed Jun 03 1992 19:236
>          -< What's DIS?  Is that like the Digital CIA or something? >-


Department of Internal Snooping?
    

17.4263CTHQ1::LEARYSix, two, and even.Wed Jun 03 1992 19:558
    T's jest blowing smoke agin.
    DIS used to be Digital Information Systems, don't know if it's called
    that anymore. Used to consist of Dig. Telcom, site vtelcom, etc.
    And I highly doubt it'd be common practice to monitor files. Mebbe
    T ran into a bad aig.
    
    MikeL
    
17.4264bluffingFRETZ::HEISERhave you tormented the Devil today?Wed Jun 03 1992 20:072
    Donno about that T, I've seen him in other work-related conferences
    (HELIX::EWS is one that comes to mind) since his disappearance in here.  
17.4265DIS :== IM&THBAHBA::HAASWTOE RadioWed Jun 03 1992 20:100
17.4266The troof and facks of the matter (circa 1979)LUNER::BROOKSI bend, but I don't break !Wed Jun 03 1992 20:2113
    DIS is what usually happens to MrT at the hands of women.
    
    MrT (in white bell-bottom suit with big lapels and DEC badge) : 
    "Hey babe, I have to axe you - what's your sign ?"
    
    Woman : "STOP ! (Slaps him.)"
    
    MrT : "I cain take a hint when a babe is obfusticating ..."
    
    Class ... what the woman did was 'dis' (dismiss) MrT .... got it ?
    Good.
    
    Doc
17.4267under protestHBAHBA::HAASWTOE RadioWed Jun 03 1992 21:1928
From:	RHETT::KNORR        "Graphics Workstation Support, Atlanta CSC"  3-JUN-1992 16:21:26.84
To:	HBAHBA::HAAS,KNORR
CC:	KNORR
Subj:	Poop Sheet

This might be worth posting in SPORTS.  (I'd do it myself except for
you-know-who.)  Carolina appears to be the early leader in the Randy
Livingston sweepstakes.  Seems his UNC visit went better than his Duke
visit.  Also UNC & Duke are battling mano-a-mano for Jerry Stackhouse,
another *huge* talent.  The early prognistication shows him leaning
toward Duke.

Recruiting summary by conference puts the ACC #2 behind the SEC.  NC
State-bound Charles Kornegay is the best prospect heading into the conference
this year.  

Finally, a_interview with Michael Jordan yeilded the following:

Q:	What about the details and structure of Coach Smith's system being
	the same every day?

A:	The practices and everything are so precise.  It's the system,
	and he sticks to the system, and no one is above the system.
	That is a proven fact.

	The system at the University of North Carolina still stands.  That
	catapulted my dream and career tremendously and it has done that
	for other players who were on that championship team.
17.4268RAVEN1::B_ADAMSGoin' back to Cali, Cali!Wed Jun 03 1992 22:279
    re-few back...For once, T was actually telling the truth about
    ACChris..
    
    As for ACChris' reply!   Go State!!!  Whata Team!
    
    I don't miss all that UNC crap everyday...Deans the best stuff...kinda
    nice to come in here and read about some good things..Ha!
    
    B.A.
17.4270HAHAHA Vintage Priceless! Sell, T, SellCTHQ1::LEARYSix, two, and even.Thu Jun 04 1992 14:321
    
17.4271Think back, boysSHALOT::HUNTEverybody Wang Chung TonightThu Jun 04 1992 14:4511
17.4272banners coming down at Duke?HBAHBA::HAASWTOE RadioThu Jun 04 1992 15:5913
Word has it that the #32 and the 92 championship banner are coming down
if Christian Laettner doesn't earn his 1 credit the first summer session.
Supposedly, Coach K noticed the obvious which was that unless Laettner
gets it then, it's at least a year away. Sometime in August he's to
report to the Olympics and then it looks like he's headed to T country.

TTom

P.S. WTOE Radio is a community in Mitchell County, NC, at least that's
what the map says. Through it runs the Big Toe River (I swear, you caint
make this stuff up). There's another small town/burg[h] called Estatoe.
Isn't that Spanish for "This Toe" or "See Dick's Toe" or something like
that.
17.4273ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYThe Opposite Of Macho Is BimboThu Jun 04 1992 17:2818
    You're probably right, Bob "Witch" Hunt.  I tend to be very 
    optimistic and forgiving when it comes to people, even a malefactor
    with a track record as tawdry as ACCrook.  I'm still deeply embarrassed
    about how easily he deked me into "forging" that confessional e-mail.
    
    Now that I reflect on it, he's probably just laying low.  On the other
    hand, he stuck his face back in the file a year ago on that Monday
    morning after "coach" Snuffer Smif' humiliated himself in the most
    naked and worst way by staggering around in a daze babbling and moaning
    and got chucked and gave up on his team and pastedon that geeky smile
    and congratulated his opponents with 35 seconds to go and down only
    5 points so if ACCrock cain weather *that* level a humiliation why
    would this year's humiliation chase him off.
    
    Hell, he's  a Star Hell fan ain't he?  He should know how to deal with
    big-game underachievment humiliation shouldn't he?!
    
    MrT
17.4274FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 297-2623Thu Jun 04 1992 17:365
    Chris should take a lesson from his absence in case he comes back. 
    Even though there were occasional cheap shots at Da Heels and Da Snuff
    they quickly died out since no one responded to them.
    
    Da Ninj
17.4275what's that leave to say?ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYThe Opposite Of Macho Is BimboThu Jun 04 1992 17:465
    I think ACCrisp has accepted the fact that Dean Smith is a chronic
    underachiever, waster of talent, and that the Star Hell program has
    sagged to second class status. 
    
    MrT
17.4276he geeked out and now he regrets it!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYThe Opposite Of Macho Is BimboThu Jun 04 1992 17:515
    I also think that ACCrock is very uncomfortable with the role he
    played in here, routinely losing arguments and making a damned fool
    a himself and all.
    
    MrT
17.4278brutal T, brutalFRETZ::HEISERheaven kisses earth in replyThu Jun 04 1992 18:151
    
17.4279DUGROS::ROSSSave DEC: Layoffs, not Payoffs!Thu Jun 04 1992 18:1717
    ACC Chris helped me out bigtime early in May... I was in Atlanta for
    DECUS and needed access to a system to pull some savesets down to TK50
    to help show a DEC product running on an Alpha system.
    
    "U-Reek-A!!" I say to myself  - "I know Chris Knorr works in
    Alpharetta"   Drive up to ALF, find Chris, get access to system, copy
    files, make tape, give Chris hard time about UNC's early exit, learn
    the story of why he's no longer in this note {it's shocking how far 
    some people will go to prove their mainlyhood... }.
    
    Chris, if you're out there, here's my payback for your help:
    
    	Dean = Bob * .95     
    
    {sorry, objectivity prevents anything more}
    
    
17.4280NAC::G_WAUGAMANThu Jun 04 1992 18:438
    
    > {it's shocking how far 
    > some people will go to prove their mainlyhood... }.
      
    Uh-oh.  We got a test of wills going on here?  Spill it, T...
    
    glenn
                                               
17.4281CTHQ3::LEARYSix, two, and even.Thu Jun 04 1992 18:448
    Stop filibusterin' T!,
    
    TTom
    Estatoe is self-explanatory, n'est-ce-pas? Tain't the Big Toe River
    jest west of it?
    
    MikeL
    
17.4282The Big Toe is Westa EstatoeHBAHBA::HAASWTOE RadioThu Jun 04 1992 19:180
17.4283secretANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYThe Opposite Of Macho Is BimboThu Jun 04 1992 19:405
    Crock's unsubstantiated allegation doesn't finger me.  He's
    actively slandering another noted hoops noter.  But, out a 
    respeck I cain't (and wouldn't) divulge that victim's identity.
    
    MrT
17.4284i.e., he's chickenANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYThe Opposite Of Macho Is BimboThu Jun 04 1992 19:545
    Frankly, I aim glad ACCrock is gone.  Arguing on behalf of the
    Star Hells has become perilous work; the kind a work that Chris
    just doesn't have the cojones to take on...
    
    MrT
17.4285BERK BERK !!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYThe Opposite Of Macho Is BimboFri Jun 05 1992 13:115
    Question: Why did a ACCrock cross the road? ...
    
    ...  to get to the other side !!
    
    MrT
17.4286cattyHBAHBA::HAASWTOE RadioFri Jun 05 1992 13:188
>                               -< BERK BERK !! >-

Goodun there T.

Reminds me of "Cat's Cradle" and the guy sitting in his car with his
family making those "Burton, Burton" noises.

TTom
17.4287Midnight I have never worn a leisure suit, NEVERANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYThe Opposite Of Macho Is BimboFri Jun 05 1992 14:431
    
17.4288T, you lie like a Persian rug ...LUNER::BROOKSI wanna be like Mike - NOT !Fri Jun 05 1992 15:581
    
17.4289Hard to respect a main who trashes Crisp - and he caint fight backLUNER::BROOKSI wanna be like Mike - NOT !Fri Jun 05 1992 15:591
    
17.4290ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYThe Opposite Of Macho Is BimboFri Jun 05 1992 16:444
    Well, if that's so then why does ACCrock find it so easy to respect
    me?  [heworshipsthebitsIwriteon]
    
    MrT
17.4291would be tough to RON under that abuseFRETZ::HEISERI *AM* MikeFri Jun 05 1992 17:353
    Doc, he's just baiting him in case he's RONing.
    
    Mike
17.4292wanna be like T?HBAHBA::HAASWTOE RadioFri Jun 05 1992 17:385
Chris, if you'r reading this, better be careful. The Link Monitor of
Noting Ogres (LMNO) might be checking your connect times and all that
type of stuff. 

TTom
17.4293YEAH CROCKMEISTER GET THE HAIL OUT A HERE. GIT !!ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewFri Jun 05 1992 19:421
    
17.4294Who ???ZPOVC::GUEST2Mon Jun 08 1992 10:351
 So who's this Crock guy ???   Never heard of him.   What's his problem ???
17.4295Too ashamed to use your own name Crocker?ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYCarolina BlewMon Jun 08 1992 13:121
    
17.4296Nope, ain't da CrockerZPOVC::GUEST2Tue Jun 09 1992 04:523
17.4297Should be an easy one for you now, Po'ZPOVC::GUEST2Tue Jun 09 1992 10:102
 Need a hint ???    ZPO is in a mildewed naval port o' call smack in the
 heart of ACC country.
17.4298HAHAHA, N'Awlins,Ketch?CTHQ2::LEARYSix, two, and even.Tue Jun 09 1992 13:241
    
17.4299:-)ZPOVC::GUEST2Wed Jun 10 1992 01:232
 Bingo, MikeL.   Wonder why it took him so long to figure it out.   Must be
 all that geography knowledge cloudin' up his haid.
17.4300ACC against the USHBAHBA::HAASWTOE RadioWed Jun 10 1992 15:1115
Four ACC players have been invited to field a college team to play
against the Olympians. They'll meet the US Team in San Diego June 22-26.
The college team will be used to help prepare the US Team but won't be
part of official competition.

The ACCers: Bobby Hurley and Grant Hill, Duke; Eric Montross, No
Carolina; and Rodney Rogers, Wake Forest.

Duke will also be represented on the US Team with token collegian
Laettner and Assistant Coach K.

Also invited: Jamal Mashburn, Kentucky; Anfernee Hardaway, Memphis St;
Chris Webber, Michigan; Allan Houston, Tennessee.

TTom
17.4301CNTROL::CHILDSIf I were A....I'dWed Jun 10 1992 16:318
As my Dan would say we all know Hurley doesn't belong there so I hope they
plan to go out and get a real point guard to make a game of it. I for one
would like to see more of Nick Van Excel (sp)fron UC....

and how can they ignore Calbert?

 mike 
17.4302STRATA::CAPPELWed Jun 10 1992 16:566
    
    
    >and how can they ignore Calbert?
    
    They want the pros to look invincible, that's why Hurley and the poorly
    coached Montross will be there. :-)
17.4303Anfernee WatchHBAHBA::HAASWTOE RadioWed Jun 10 1992 17:1014
Based on lasted year's tourney, the one to watch might be Anfernee
Hardaway from Memphis St. Some thought he might declare for the NBA this
year but apparently he's decided to come back. This should make Memphis
St a top 20 team going into nexted year's season.

Yeah, Montross ;-( Too bad Chris Knorr can't/won't come in here to gloat
and brag about how this proves that Dean is better'n Bob cause Calbert
didn't make it and Montross did. On second thougth, maybe it's not too
bad.

Chris, if'n you're reading, don't send mail asking me to post it. The
lasted time was the lasted time.

TTom
17.4304one smart man-child too....CNTROL::CHILDSIf I were A....I'dWed Jun 10 1992 17:473
 Mash should be a good one to watch too. TV doesn't do him justice. He's
 big everywhere but the gut. 
17.4305Waht Mikey saidDEMING::MCKAYThu Jun 11 1992 16:306
    I haven't said it in a while so HURLEY SIPS.  Montross should be
    on the all-7 foot stiff team.  Rogers, Mashburn, and Hardaway are
    big time players, with some school of thoughts that Hardaway is the
    next Magic.
    
    jimbo
17.4306Dean < BobANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSYPlato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnightWed Jun 17 1992 12:311
    Dean < Bob
17.4307Jimmy V has the Big CHBAHBA::HAASWTOE RadioFri Jun 19 1992 12:204
It's been reported that Jimmy Valvano has cancer in his back. I haven't
heard any details about what type or prognosis.

TTom
17.4308STRATA::CAPPELThu Jun 25 1992 20:0615
    Does anyone know where that guard Walt.... what was his name..
    
    ...Walt Winkles(no that's not it)
    
    ....Waldo Williams(that's not it either)
    
    You know that guard from that ACC school, Maryland I think it was...
    
    You know if he played at NC under Dean Smith, I'm sure I'd know his
    name.  Anyway does anyone know if he was a lottery pick this year :-)
    
    He's the guy that Chris Knorr said lost millions by playing at
    Maryland.
    
    
17.4309Haven't seen him since the last Snuff ChokeSCNDRL::HUNTHe-Man Tar Heel Haters ClubThu Jun 25 1992 20:455
17.4310WAY TO GO DEAN!!!RAVEN1::OGLESBYBlue HeavenFri Jun 26 1992 01:5413
     Before anyone beats me to it, I want to be the First one to
    congratulate Dean Smith for turning out another average player into
    a First round pick.
    
    THE CHOICE IS YOURS,
    
    
        A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP OR A FIRST ROUND PICK AND MILLIONS OF $$$
    
    BIG "O"
    
    
                        
17.4311???RAVEN1::B_ADAMSFirecracker 400 By PepsiFri Jun 26 1992 02:116
17.4312H. Davis,who probably wasn't a top 200 recruit...RAVEN1::OGLESBYBlue HeavenFri Jun 26 1992 02:152
    
    
17.4313ACC had good year again...RAVEN1::B_ADAMSFirecracker 400 By PepsiFri Jun 26 1992 02:447
    
    	Well let's congratulate Les Robinson for getting the ***6TH***
    pick in the draft...Mr.Goo-Goo himself!
    
    	He probably wasn't a top 400 recruit...:*)
    
    B.A.
17.4314Les > DeanSHALOT::MEDVIDthe strain of smilingFri Jun 26 1992 12:431
    
17.4315Kzyzyzyzykyzy>Les>Maryland coach>DeanROYALT::ASHEDon't leave me hangin, I wanna be ganginFri Jun 26 1992 15:191
    
17.4316TruthTUXEDO::BLOUNTTue Jul 07 1992 14:2729
    
    
    Dean > Kzyzyzyzyzyzyzyzyzy
    
    Dean > Bobby
    .
    .
    Dean > Wooden
    .
    .
    Dean > Rupp
    .
    .
    Dean > Red
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    (it's like throwing raw meat to the hungry wolves.....:-)
    
17.4317Laettner graduatingHBAHBA::HAASWTOE RadioTue Jul 07 1992 14:359
It should be mentioned that Christian Laettner has completed his
requirements to graduate and the NCAA championship banner and his jersey
can now be hoisted at Duke.

Now to the bait, since the units of comparison are not listed I would say
that this list is absolutely correct if'n were talking about wasting
talent.

TTom
17.4318A Dean Bash in July ??? Why not ...SHALOT::HUNTEverybody Wang Chung TonightTue Jul 07 1992 20:3144
17.4319CAMONE::WAYJoin the Vikings -- what a shore leave!!!Tue Jul 07 1992 20:341
Thigh shuddering Bob Hunt, absolutely thigh shuddering......
17.4320AXIS::ROBICHAUD20YearsLater-IraqgateWed Jul 08 1992 14:191
    	Give it up.  It ain't the same without Cyst or MorT.
17.4321helpHBAHBA::HAASWTOE RadioWed Jul 08 1992 14:3211
>   	Give it up.  It ain't the same without Cyst or MorT.

Couldn't agree more. What we ought to have a Corporate wide search for
new zealots. T and Knorr were perfect for each other and us.

I'm not sure we could find another Bobby Boaster or Dean Defender but we
need something in here to spark things up.

Maybe a "I wanna be like T" contest or the like.

TTom
17.4322No ProblemRAVEN1::B_ADAMSMGD 500 at the Poke!Wed Jul 08 1992 19:3012
17.4323hahHBAHBA::HAASHead down FrogmanWed Jul 08 1992 19:347
B.A.

I think you're on to something.

Mabye throw in UVa?

TTom
17.4324Long Live The SnufferSHALOT::HUNTEverybody Wang Chung TonightThu Jul 09 1992 14:2522
17.4325MCIS2::DHAMELOlympic Village IdiotThu Jul 09 1992 14:483
    
    Will the movie about the life of Dean be a "Snuff Film?"
    
17.4326PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollThu Jul 09 1992 15:067
17.4327And Snuff weighes < KnightEARRTH::BROOKSMoons Over My Hammy ...Thu Jul 09 1992 15:491
    ... and UVa still has fewer titles than the SnuffMeister .....
17.4328Incoming.......WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_MDONBO,DANBO,AND ROBERTBO...Thu Jul 09 1992 17:133
    
    
              YA but John Thompson is God....:-)
17.4329Et tu, Doc ???SHALOT::HUNTEverybody Wang Chung TonightThu Jul 09 1992 17:1310
17.4330GENRAL::WADEfill yer hands you &lt;CENSORED&gt;!!Thu Jul 09 1992 17:166
    
    	Take it from a Bronco fan, 0 fer 4 is more embarassing!
    
    :^)
    
    Claybone
17.4331Last one out kill the lights, please ...SHALOT::HUNTEverybody Wang Chung TonightThu Jul 09 1992 17:167
17.4332PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollThu Jul 09 1992 18:224
17.4333HOYAS ROOOUULLLEEE !!!EARRTH::BROOKSMoons Over My Hammy ...Fri Jul 10 1992 15:213
    re .4328
    
    AGREED !
17.4334EARRTH::BROOKSMoons Over My Hammy ...Fri Jul 10 1992 15:2414
    re .4329
    
    Brutus ? tsk tsk .... Bob, I've never been a Smif' apologist (remember,
    Smith lost me when I saw the 4-corners for the first time) - so spare
    us the 'betrayal' act. Fack is that Holland really didn't get that
    great a supporting cast for Sampson - I think he choked in the player
    eval department for a long time there ...
    
    Anyhow the upshot of the Knorr/T departure is that the spotlight will
    now shift back to the other teams and their supporters.
    
    Better get your raingear ready Bob .... :-)
    
    Doc
17.4335Ralph had help and still chokedHBAHBA::HAASHead down FrogmanFri Jul 10 1992 15:2713
>    us the 'betrayal' act. Fack is that Holland really didn't get that
>    great a supporting cast for Sampson - I think he choked in the player
>    eval department for a long time there ...

Taint so, Doc.

At one time or another during the Sampson era, Othell Wilson, Jeff Lamp,
and other good if not great college players shared the court. I'm sure
Bob Hunt remembers them all down to the 12th man on the bench.  

Hardly a case of Ralph and the Four Preppies against the world.

TTom
17.4336More ...SHALOT::HUNTEverybody Wang Chung TonightFri Jul 10 1992 16:3531
17.4337reply in kindHBAHBA::HAASHead down FrogmanFri Jul 10 1992 17:444
No debate needed. Besides, I couldn't let that Va Tech zinger go
unanswered ;-)

TTom
17.4338Chemotherapy for Valvano HBAHBA::HAASHead down FrogmanThu Jul 16 1992 20:308
Update on Jimmy V:

Valvano has been diagnosed with bone cancer in his back. He's started
chemotherarpy at Sloan-Kettering in NY. No prognosis still but the
doctors think that his cancer started in his lungs which isn't good news
since it may appear in other places and forms.

TTom
17.4339NCAA looking at loans at UVaHBAHBA::HAASHead down FrogmanTue Aug 11 1992 14:4865
Article: 8053
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.tw.education,clari.local.virginia+dc,clari.sports.top
Subject: NCAA names outside factfinder to investigate Schultz-UVA link
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 15:07:31 PDT
 
	OVERLAND PARK, Kan. (UPI) -- The NCAA said Monday that it hired an
independent factfinder to determine if Executive Director Dick Schultz
had known of alleged illegal loans made to student athletes at the
University of Virginia.
	James Park Jr., a lawyer and former judge who coordinated an NCAA
inquiry of the basketball program at the University of Kentucky in 1988-
89, will look into allegations that Schultz was aware of the loans while
he was Virginia's director of athletics.
	Schultz served as Virginia's director of athletics between 1981 and
1987. But he has denied any knowledge of the loans to student athletes
made by the Virginia Student Aid Foundation, a private fund-raising arm
for the school's athletic department.
	National Collegiate Athletic Association rules prohibit an
institution from making such loans if it doesn not make them available
to all its students.
	``I readily admit I should have known about the loans, but I didn't,''
Schultz said in an interview in April, when the university turned over a
550-page document to the NCAA that detailed U.Va.'s internal inquiry
into the loan allegations.
	David Berst, the NCAA's assistant executive director for enforcement,
said officials decided an outside investigator was appropriate after
reviewing his department's own regulations.
	``In this instance, it appears to us...that in reviewing our own
conflict-of-interest paragraphs we should disqualify ourselves from this
type of matter,'' he said in a telephone conference call with reporters.
	Berst said Schultz, as the NCAA's top official, authorized the funds
to pay for the outside factfinder but did not enter into any discussions
about who that independent counsel would be.
	``He did not play a role in the consideration of the matter or in
making the decision,'' Berst said.
	U.Va. discovered the alleged infractions in 1991 and concluded its
11-month, $210,000 investigation in April. U.Va. President John Casteen
called the inquiry and its aftermath ``a sad day for the university.''
	Park, a former judge on the Fayette Circuit Court and the Kentucky
court of Appeals, began reviewing the Virginia report over the weekend.
Berst said he will be charged solely with questions regarding Schultz's
conduct and conflicting statements from some U.Va. officials who contend
Schultz knew of the loans.
	Park will present his findings independently to the NCAA Committee on
Infractions.
	A regular NCAA enforcement officer will continue the inquiry into the
36 interest-free loans made primarily to basketball and football players
for such items as health insurance, eye glasses and trips home. 
	Park, 59, declined to say Monday whom he might interview as part of
his investigation.
	``I'm not going to identify specific persons,'' he said. ``If you've
identified the the person that suggests you've made some judgement
yourself.''
	The loans ranged from $100 to $500 and totaled $12,500.
	The loan scandal has already claimed the jobs of two top-ranking VSAF
administrators, Ted Davenport and Joe Mark. Davenport has contended
Schultz at one point ordered him to stop making further loans to student
athletes, indicating Schultz knew of the expenditures.
	Because of the apparent violations, the university announced it was
hiring a full-time NCAA compliance officer and planned to combine all
sports booster groups under one umbrella.
	The NCAA on Monday refused to reveal a timetable for its
investigation, but suggested Park's inquiry would occur in tandem with
the enforcement department's.
17.4341Sadly, note 17 had to be awoken for this. :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Aug 24 1992 17:0566
Since being laid off from SPORTS [:^(] courtesy of the now-departed MrT [:^)] 
I've been keeping an arms distance away from the mother-of-all notes 
conferences, but my buddy Kev wired me in on the fact that BobHunt and 
dan'l have been tapped.  It's still unclear at this juncture whether Tom 
Haas is also part of this unhappy farewell.  Mail messages to him have
gone unanswered, so I fear the worst.

While I can't speak to the sanity of the decision, I can to my emotions.
I'm saddened.  Up until now the layoffs have been but distant rumblings.  In
many ways I know people in SPORTS much better than even co-workers, so
the sounds of TFSO seem very close indeed.  Gentlemen, you'll be missed.

While it's doubtless of little or no consolation at this point, I'm reminded
of words MrT himself told me once, just prior to a previous round of TFSO
he realistically expected to receive.  Getting tapped at Digital should not
be an experience to mourn excessively.  There's plenty wrong with this
place and little right.  In the relative short stint I've worked here (7ish 
years) I've seen the change from an exciting, entreprenueral company to a cold,
Fortune XX "corporate entity".  The Digital soul is gone, replaced
by the cold calculation of Wall Street management, with their accompanying 
unique brand of "morality".  Playing the political game is now Job 1 at DEC, 
"Doing the Right Thing" a nostalgic blip on the memory bank.  Hard work with 
solid results are not nearly as important (if they're important at all) as 
being just danged lucky to be in the right place (i.e. under a safe political 
umbrella) at the right time.  As MrT expressed to me, getting axed at 
Digital is just opening the door for you to find a better job with better
pay to work under better conditions.  Again, this may not help much now
and I apologize if it seems trite, but it's often an  ironic truth in life 
that our worst moments, when looked at in retrospect, turn out to be a true 
turning point toward better times.  Hence, there will be no eulogy delivered
by yours truly.  Only recollections of fond memories.

re: dan'l

Only met you once and have described you to others as easily one of the
strangest cats I've ever met!  While you've yet to write a comment on Carolina
basketball that I agreed with I certainly appreciated your notes over the 
years.  Trust me when I say I will never, *ever* forget Pepper!


re: BobHunt

I once heard an evangelical minister say that, after graduating from college
and trying to choose a divinity school, he set his criterion to be a place
where his beliefs would be put to *maximum* question, ridicule, and 
challenge.  (He picked Harvard.)  After surviving and graduating at the
top of his class without conceding a single point he realized his faith
was philosophically justified.

All humbleness aside, I feel likewise.  BobHunt has challenged my 
fervor and enthusiasm for Carolina basketball at virtually every turn
with equal amounts of (discenting) unabashed zeal.  I survived and am 
stronger for it.  More importantly along the way we've had an incredible 
amount of fun, laughter, and great writing (on his part, anyway).  While 
I won't admit a chink on my UNC armor, I am prepared to concede that Larry 
Johnson was not a mistake.  ;^)

I enjoyed meeting you and your family; appreciate your hospitality; enjoyed
reading virtually all your notes; and *demand* that if you're in Atlanta you
give me a ring!  

Gentlemen, take care and God Bless.


- ACC Chris
    
17.4342Somehow I knew this would resurrect himSHALOT::HUNTLast one out, hit the lightsMon Aug 24 1992 17:3834
17.4343SHALOT::MEDVIDI will feel so glad to goMon Aug 24 1992 20:274
    Wow!  Wish we would have thought of this as a innocent college prank a
    few months ago to flush Chris out.  Too bad it's all so true now.
    
    	--dan'l (once and future weasel)
17.4344checking, and staying, inHBAHBA::HAASSir TurtleMon Aug 24 1992 21:2818
As Bob Hunt has said, I'm right for this round of rightsizing. I work at
CEO. I just started a new job with Network Integration Services and when
I took the job they "assured" me that it was funded for year. Meanwhile,
my old group Sales/Sales Support is bracing for what will now be their
third round of "options". No real word on when this will happen but
indications are that it will be done by October.

But with the loss of Bob, Dan'l, and B.A, I certainly feel like a_orphan.
But in keeping with the religious analogy, I will continue my undaunting
investigation into the boondoggle I affectionately call No Carolina. In
fact, all this rightsizing seems to parallel what truly marks the
performance of the Tar Heels: wasting talent. There's a metaphor or
parable here. Maybe Saw can work on it.

In the meanwhile, I stand strong for the Pack, against the Heels, and,
perhaps like some others, uncertain about Digital.

TTom
17.4345Ba-da-bing; Ba-da-boom :-) :-)SHALOT::HUNTLast one out, hit the lightsMon Aug 24 1992 23:576
 >> ... and *demand* that if you're in Atlanta you give me a ring!  
 
 Sure, no problem, Soup.   I know how desperate you are for another ring. 
 Snuff's 1-for-32 would have driven me to begging a long time ago.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4346C'mon guys, this stuff is for *you*SHALOT::HUNTLast one out, hit the lightsTue Aug 25 1992 17:549
 As my last official edict as King Of The Henchmen, I hereby decree that
 each of the afore-mentioned Henchmen shall enter a reply in the Holy
 Sacred Note XVII with their compliments for the outrageously funny and
 devilishly clever retorts that your sovreign leader has been lobbing back
 at the now flushed-out Crockmeister.
 
 So let it be written; so let it be done.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4347Good enough???ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '92Tue Aug 25 1992 18:216
    Kudos to the brilliant wit of King of the Henchmen. I am sure that
    never again will anyone with such command of the English language, or
    any language, write in this note.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
17.4348That's the spiritSHALOT::HUNTLast one out, hit the lightsTue Aug 25 1992 18:373
 Well done, TCM.  Keep 'em coming.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4349CNTROL::CHILDSIf Bush was a horse, you'd shoot em'Tue Aug 25 1992 19:1912
 It used to be I'd come in throw my shots at the tarheels and see who
 else had something to say and then I'd get wet with anticipation of
 what our beloved leader would write. He was outstanding at remember
 every choke job in the long history of the team. Man he could recite
 plays, time on the clock, scores and the color of Snuffy's face from
 games played long ago....

 If I had dime for every time he made the Crookmister "perch and twirl"
 I could leave DEC and live comfortably....

 mike
17.4350isn't recycling good for U ?CSTEAM::FARLEYMegabucks Winner WannabeTue Aug 25 1992 19:518
    and *I* think it's very unfair that Snuffy will still be around
    while you won't. :*(
    
    Maybe we can jest recycle some of your earlier postings.  I'm sure
    they'll still be 95%-100% current.
    
    Kev
    
17.4351~/~PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollTue Aug 25 1992 19:584
17.4352'nuff saidDUGROS::ROSSMy cliches give 110%Tue Aug 25 1992 20:231
    Hunt > Knorr
17.4353;^) simple minds, simple judgements......CSTEAM::FARLEYMegabucks Winner WannabeTue Aug 25 1992 20:239
    but Mac,
    
    on another level, they were certainly great displays of literary
    greatness.
    
    hth,
    
    Kev
    
17.4354SCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesTue Aug 25 1992 20:313
       Bob, make sure you print out a copy a the trial to take with you. I
    know I would/will!
                                   Denny
17.4355I got it! I got it!CSTEAM::FARLEYMegabucks Winner WannabeTue Aug 25 1992 20:5212
    I have (courtesy of the Sawmain who got it from Jeff Riggen (Hi Jeff)
     the complete unabridged copy of Note 110  also known as the trial note.
    
    Anybody who wants a copy, send mail but before you do, I gotta tell ya
    it's about 2300 blocks long.
    
    hth,
    
    I remain,
    da pack rat!
    Kev
    
17.4356CAMONE::WAYCrucial TauntTue Aug 25 1992 22:0155
STAND BACK, GUSH ALERT:


I have always been proud to have been a Henchmen, and am extremely proud
to have served under the King of The Henchmen.

It is said that true leadership is a rare thing.  Any Henchman will tell
you that we were blessed with a rare leader.  There are many who would
aspire to leadership roles, but fall far short, earning instead the
title of "Manager".   True leadership derives its power from a mutual
respect, an intrinsic motivation, and a willingness to please internal
to each underling.   That was the case here.

A true leader will never ask a Henchman to do something that the leader
wouldn't do himself.  So it was with our King.  Many, many times I'd
sit here in awe, watching the incredible strands of the Web of Coldly
Calculated Logic being spun.  Many, many times I'd get moist as
ACC Crisp would inevitabley and inexorably wander right into the middle
of the net, trapped there immobile in the face of truly superior fire
power.

The Henchmen would have followed their King to Hell and back.


If I might borrow the turn of a phrase from The Bard himself:


	Old men forget, yet all shall be forgot.
	But he'll remember with advantages 
	What feats he did in here:  then shall our names,
	Familiar in their mouths as household words --
	BobHunt the King, Way and Childs, Medvid and Ross --
	Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd.

	And March Madness shall ne'er go by,
	from this day until the ending fo the world,
	but we in it shall be remembered, --
	We few, we happy few, we band of Henchmen...

	And gentlemen in SPORTS now a-bed,
	Shall think themselves accursed they were not Henchmen,
	And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks,
	that fought with us in Note 17......



Yes, long will the fight be remembered.  And the name of the King
shall span the eons starting forth today.

The King is gone!  Long Live The King!!  Long Live The King!!!!



Chainsaw

17.4357Boobie is KING!!!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSI will truely miss my friends!Wed Aug 26 1992 01:408
17.4358RDOVAX::BRAKEWed Aug 26 1992 12:3332
    Let it be known that there is one and only one institution of higher
    learning in what is known as the Atlantic Coast Conference that
    deserves to be placed at the apex of knowledge. This instituion has
    integrity and honor. This institution lists a King amongst it's
    glorious alumni. King Bob Hunt.
    
    Yea though it be called Mr. Jefferson's university. From the top of
    "Little Mountain" the hallowed halls of Charlottesville can be seen on
    a crisp autumn day. Conceived by the most eloquant of men, the
    University fields small gatherings of scholars who engage in
    competitive events. They call themselves Cavaliers to the outside world
    simply because they define the world "cavalier". They are dashing,
    brave and courteous. They vie againsty the vile tarhells, demon
    deacons, wolfpack and blue devils - all creatures from the dark
    underworld who seek enlightenment from those cavalier elite in the
    shadow of Monticello and a stone's throw from Michie Tavern.
    
    These heathens called terps and yellow jackets seek knowledge and
    wisdom from the halls of the Rotunda. They strive to conform to the
    order of things which is defined in orange and blue. They look to the
    legacy of King Bob and desire to be like him. 
    
    Alas, it is not possible. Ogres led by a troll named Snuff continue
    down a road of mediocrity. One by one their knights fall before the
    shining cavaliers of King Bob. 
    
    To the greatest Wahoo of all, King Bob, I salute you and your
    contribution to this collection of pretenders. Mr. Jefferson would be
    right proud of you.
    
    Rich
    
17.4360oh yeah!HBAHBA::HAASSir TurtleWed Aug 26 1992 13:5018
What in the wide, wide world of sports is going on here. 

First of all, Bob Hunt comes from a school that dwarfs No Carolina in
elitism and power-mongering. Hail, UVa helped invent the American
versions of both.

Secondly, Bob Hunt is on record for bestowing the *G* word on Dean Smith.
Look it up.

Thirdly, MrT is not here to intervene in this here non-objective,
non-sportsy spit swapping. 



All that aside I'm proud to have been a weasel in the army of KBH, Va
Tech slurs notwithstanding.

TTom
17.4361This tribute from a non-weaselCTHQ::MCCULLOUGHLindsey AND Melanie's dadWed Aug 26 1992 14:188
In deference to the once and fallen King of the Weasels; from this day forward
upon each sighting of the colour known as baby blue, I shall place both my hands 
around my throat, thrust my thumbs into my adams apple, and make an appropriate
chocking sound.

This I pledge for my remaining days upon the planet.

=Bob=
17.4362Major hootsSHALOT::HUNTLast one out, hit the lightsWed Aug 26 1992 14:226
 Totally absolutely unbelievably rollward on this stuff.  You guys are
 making these last few days about as enjoyable as they could possibly be.
 
 Don't let me stop you now.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4363MCIS2::DHAMELFlower child gone to seedWed Aug 26 1992 14:337
    
    This note string was hard enough to follow as it was.  Would you guys
    mind going back to using small words again?
    
    
    Dickstah
    
17.4364Two Men OutSHALOT::MEDVIDI will feel so glad to goWed Aug 26 1992 14:4147
    Some may blame it on park effects.  But those who are truly
    knowledgeable realize that the combination of poor pitching and a
    batter we haven't seen the likes of since the Splendid Splinter is what
    is responsible for the high batting average.

    Yes, note after note, day after day, month after month, season after
    season, year after year in the never ending game of SPORTS, ACChris
    (a.k.a. IgKnorr(tm)) stood, knees knocking, on the mound known as RHETT
    and lofted fat pitches toward the SHALOT batters box.  His candy arm
    growing weaker with each pitch that King Bob sent over the fence,
    mostly out to direct center.

    There were a few fouled off now and then, but those usually accompanied
    the occasional brushback...all part of the game, folks.  The henchmen in
    the dugout cheered as their king knocked another fat one from the park,
    rounded the bases, and touched home while the ever weakening Knorr hung
    his head, waiting to be yanked.

    Then a few of the henchmen would get their turns at bat, lacing a few
    past the corners, some even going for extra bases, some caught
    stealing.  Yet always knowing that when King Bob stepped into the white
    lines of the batters box by typing the word REPLY, they were assured of
    a trot to the plate.

    And finally the manager of the Hare Smithnas did give Knorr the hook
    and the henchmen all waited for the next pitcher.  And though some
    fresh meat did take the mound for a while, they quietly whimpered away
    at the mere sight of King Bob, his uniform yet unmuddied.

    The henchmen waited with anticipation as their king stood in the box
    waiting for the Smithnas to send in some young stud to challenge Hunt's
    mighty bat.  But none ever came.  And with time, darkness fell over the
    park.  King Bob now walks from the box motioning to one of his
    befriended Henchmen who worked his way up in the Pittsburgh farm system
    and who King Bob recruited years earlier in St. Louis.  The lad
    who's been busy flirting with the girls in the stands.  "Time to hit
    the showers, dan'l," says the king.  "These young buck studs will
    handle it without us.  Other ballparks call us."

    Not a word is said in the dugout as the henchmen watch King Bob and
    dan'l pack up their gear and unlace their spikes.  King Bob looks to
    the other dugout where Knorr, shoulder wrapped in ice, lifts his good
    arm an waves good bye.  Bob gives an acknowledging nod of respect.
    
    Each teammate's hand is slapped, as King Bob and dan'l head for the
    tunnel...looking for the light at its end.

17.4365throw em out refs so we have a chanceCNTROL::CHILDSIf Bush was a horse, you'd shoot em'Wed Aug 26 1992 15:256
 beautifully Dan-l, one question wasn't the coach of the Hara Smithnas
 claiming that HUNT  used a corked bat?

 ;^)

17.4366The King & his courtSCHOOL::RIEURead his lips...Know new taxesWed Aug 26 1992 16:163
    Good stuff dan'l!!
    There's no joy in 'Mudville' tonight!
                                      Denny 8^(
17.4367CUPMK::DEVLINJe voudrais boire quelque chose.Wed Aug 26 1992 17:097
Okay, my windows blew up while composing my note to the King.

I have a .jou file.  How do I make it a .txt file?

Deen to wonk and all that

JD
17.4368And they're letting a man with this much knowledge go 8-)SHALOT::MEDVIDI will feel so glad to goWed Aug 26 1992 17:197
    I'd suggest 
    
    $ EDIT/RECOVER filename.txt
    
    and then save it and include it once in notes.
    
    	--dan'l
17.4369CUPMK::DEVLINJe voudrais boire quelque chose.Wed Aug 26 1992 17:415
Thank Dan'l - and Lufay for the mail

I knew it was mumble/recover something...

JD
17.4370CUPMK::DEVLINJe voudrais boire quelque chose.Wed Aug 26 1992 17:42105

It would only be fitting to give Sr. Hunt a tribute that he richly 
deserves.    The setting is the Golden Banana, or like establishment.
An all-star tribute is planned.

First up, the rocking of Queen's "We Are the Champions" is heard.  Marina
does a little shim sham dance, and announced the first group to honor
"Da King of Da Weasals".   It's a parade of UNC Baby-Blue TarHells(TM) - an
endless line of ALl-American Talent, and they sing:

"We played our games.  We've learned the system.
We achieved fame and fortune and everything that goes with it,
except one thing. one tiny thing....And it grates at
us throughout the years and years for ...

WE ARE THE CHOKERS, MY FRIENDS, AND WE'LL KEEP ON CHOKING TO THE
END.....WE ARE THE CHOKERS, WE ARE THE CHOKERS, 
NO TIME FOR WINNERS FOR WE ARE THE CHOKERS....OF THE WORLD......"

A fitting start to the tribute, the crowd is going nuts, as our next
lovely comes shaking and baking onto the dance floor....

It's the Snuffer hisself.  His backup band, UB40, starts the sound of
their hit "Rat in the Kitchen", and the Snuffer snivels out...

"There's a hand round me throat what I'm gonna Do?  There's a hand round
my throat what I'm gonna DO?  I'm gonna lose this game dat's what I'm gonna
do, I'm gonna lose this game...

I play da system and wins lots of games but the tourney come and I
wanna run, and den it aint no fun

There's how much time what I gonna do?  There's how much time what I
gonna do, I gonna get kicked out dats what I gonna do I gonna get kicked out...

I gots the talent but nots the brains and I let my seniors shoot when
dey should be getting da boot

There's hand round my throat what I gonna do?  There's a hand round me 
throat what I gonna do?  I gonna let Brick keep on shoot, gonna let him keep 
clang....

I play da games and win the ACC, but in the NCAA I gets the loss that
be so excellent and den I simply reload....

There's hand round me throat want I gonna do There's a hand round me 
throat what I gonna do?  I'm gonna warm up da bus dats what I gonna do I 
gonna warm up da bus.....<gasp>  <gasp>.."

Oh, never saw anyone that particular shade of blue....

Next, being led by some honey's from the Paper Doll, are Referee Pete Pavla
and Coach Roy Williams, with some KC Jayhawks as backups to an old
Chicago tune:

"As I was reffing a Final Four game one day...a gasping man came up to
me to ask how much time was left... and I said....

Does anyone really what time is left...oh does anyone really care....
I don't know I  don't know I just don't know....."

Ha ha.  Thanks Pete.    Thanks Girls.  

Why, next up, it looks like MC Hammer and Vanila Ice - accompanied by
Busty Heart and Chesty Morgan.....and we've been informed that at they
will do an 'oringinal' rap tune - called "No Matter How dey loses, they
sure gots the excuses...."

<insert rap backroground music here...>

"What's we got here is in this case
Enough to say, Dean, In Yo face
Sit back cdown and start to muses
As we lay on ya, some  a some great excuses
No matter how badly we may have shot 
We lost cuz the other bosyys be incrediably HOT
And when whupped we got our asses
It was just cuz we got out of classes
We da the bigegest chokes you never seen
In the book of exucuses author name Dean
And not m matter that ol Snuffy was to blam
the reason was we just had a final exam
Shots be bricking clock be ticking
Dean be ready for another licking
And everyone but his lame fans
Knows Dean chokes wif both hans..."

And finally, out comes Pepper, riding a white pony named Rhhett
to introduce the Weasal Choraus.....

"Oh Bob Hunt is king, bob hunt is king.. of da weasals odaweasalsofdaweasals of
 da weeaaasaels.

His kingdom  will live forever and ever and ever and ever
SNUnuffyychookesSnuffychoeskes, Snuffychoekes snuf-fy chookeskes...."

And finally, 100 naked Wahoo Cheerleaders strut on stage, ready to give
The King a ro-bust send off.....

;-)

jd


17.4371Another Snuff Choke; This time during Recruiting SeasonSHALOT::HUNTLast one out, hit the lightsThu Sep 03 1992 17:188
 Anybody remember that Randy Livingston kid from Louisiana who starred in
 the Boston Shootout two years ago ???  Remember how Soup was convinced
 that the kid was in serious love with Dean and Carolina and how he was
 just dying to go to Chapel Hill ???
 
 Dale Brown signed him late last week.  He's gonna be an LSU Tiger.
 
 Bob Hunt
17.4372CTHQ::LEARYChainsaw: Possible ND convert?Thu Sep 03 1992 18:167
    I'm no fan of Smif, but this Livingston dude must want to re-larn
    the basics when he turns pro. Certainly ain't gonna larn squat from
    Cement-Haid.
    
    JMHO
    MikeL
    
17.4373CNTROL::CHILDSRoger Clemems, what a waste of disk spaceThu Sep 03 1992 18:497
 he'll learn how to hold a bible in one hand and smack a ref with the other
 hand...

 one has to know how to protect one's selfs.........

 
17.4374DUGROS::ROSSMy cliches give 110%Fri Sep 04 1992 21:1012
    I've been listening to Jim Valvano's audiotape version of his book
    "They Give Me A Lifetime Contract and Then Declared Me Dead" {kind of
    a sick title considering his current battle with cancer}.   On the
    tape, Valvano tells a story about being in a barbershop in Raliegh, NC
    and getting into a discussion with a Tar Heel fan.  The Smithereen kept
    trying to tell Valvano how great Dean was, how he was so much better
    than any other ACC coach.   So Valvano says "What about Norm Sloan, who
    went 28-0 with his NC State team one year?"  and the Carolina fan
    replies:
    	
    	"Yeah, imagine what Dean could have done with that team!"
    
17.4375A sad loss, and a new yearTUXEDO::BLOUNTFri Nov 13 1992 15:5917
    psst....is anybody still here?
    
    I assume that Sir Bob and dan'l have left by now, but I just wanted
    to also add my regret at their leaving.  Bob was a formidable foe,
    and wielded the anti-Snuff material eloquently.  This was particularly
    true given the indefensability of his position!.....:-)
    
    Well, it's a new year now, and the ACC games should start (or maybe
    have already) soon.  It's time to start watching the Tar Heels
    start their impressive climb through the ranks, to the final
    four.  It's a shame that Bob won't be around to see them conquer
    all competition.
    
    Well, ACC Chris, it's just you and me now.
    
    Meat
    
17.4376CUPMK::DEVLINThe bill is due for the last 12 years...Fri Nov 13 1992 16:069
Meat ! -

Welcome back.  Sadly, our brethren Bob and Dan'l have departed for
distant shores, forced from DEC into new lives and adventures.  Both
are doing well, last we heard.

The ACC - what bodes for the conference of Duke?

JD
17.4377Hunt, Medvid, Adams - gone; Knorr - in hidingHBAHBA::HAASGandhi Cactus JuiceFri Nov 13 1992 17:218
Duke is in fact primed for another run. This time it will profile Grant
Hill. No Carolina will counter with Eric Montross and NC State will show
up with nobody anybody heard of and will do quite nicely against any and
all comers.

Personally, I'm hoping that Florida State steps up ends Duke's run.

TTom
17.4378Address for Jimmy ValvanoMSDOA::HYMESFight, flee, or flowFri Nov 20 1992 19:146
    For all of you NC State fans, I caught an address where you
    cain send cards and litters to Jimmy V.
    
    Jim Valvano
    408 Glasgow Road
    Cary, NC  (dunnodazip)
17.4379DankeCTHQ1::LEARYWhy George why? Because it's there!Fri Nov 20 1992 19:2422
              <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 17.4378          Atlantic Coast Conference Basketball          4378 of 4378
MSDOA::HYMES "Fight, flee, or flow"                   6 lines  20-NOV-1992 16:14
                         -< Address for Jimmy Valvano >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    For all of you NC State fans, I caught an address where you
>>>    cain send cards and litters to Jimmy V.
    
    Jim Valvano
    408 Glasgow Road
    Cary, NC  (dunnodazip)
    
     Ouch Pat! there's a Fruedian slip if'n I ever done seen one.
    Actually good idea. Here's hoping for the best for Jimmy V.
    Thanks for posting.
    
    MikeL
    One who knows the suffering of a family member from this kind of
    disease. 
    
17.4380Wolfpack reserve shoots himselfHBAHBA::HAASGandhi Cactus JuiceTue Nov 24 1992 19:0226
Article: 30
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball.college
Subject: Police probe death of N.C. State player
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 11:28:46 PST
 
	RALEIGH, N.C. (UPI) -- Police are investigating the death of North
Carolina State basketball player Anthony Robinson, who was found dead of
an apparent suicide in his dormitory room Monday after he failed to show
up for a game.
	Lieutenant W.L. Baker, watch commander of the Raleigh City Police
Department, said the 22-year-old, 6-foot-9 junior from Havelock, N.C.,
was found by his roommates in his bed at the Stroud Athletic Residence
Hall at about 8:15 p.m. EST.
	Baker said Robinson had been dead for nearly two hours. He added that
Robinson died of a single gunshot wound to the head, apparently self-
inflicted. Baker said preliminary investigations showed no indication of
foul play.
	According to Tuesday's Raleigh News and Observer, Wolfpack Coach Les
Robinson had been notified of Robinson's death at halftime of Monday
night's exhibition game against Brandt-Hagen of Germany. The paper said
the coach chose not to tell the team of Robinson's death until after the
game.
	Robinson, recruited by former Coach Jim Valvano, was redshirted as a
freshman. The reserve forward played in 20 games in the 1990-91 season,
totaling 20 points and 31 rebounds in 11 games.
17.4381Dean > Bob.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 07 1992 14:1334
Well folks while we're all hanging around waiting for our pink slips ...

GO TAR HEELS!!

Yes, the '92-'93 version of North Carolina basketball is shaping up 
quite nicely, nagging injuries notwithstanding.  The 'Heels haven't 
beaten three (3) opponents so far - they've *annihilated* them.  
Eye-popping margins of ~ 40 points per game, against competition 
that's not great, but not bad either.  W's over Old Dominion, a_NCAA 
invitee last year, an admittedly down South Carolina 5, and the 
top_25_Texas_Longhorns have this fan wondering if, for the first time 
in a while, North Carolina might actually have the talent and 
chemistry necessary to challenge the Nerds for ACC supremacy!  

To be sure the biggest and best surprise is the play of Donald 
Williams, who's led all scorers 3 games in a row.  He's lighting it 
up from outside, which is what this team *desperately* needed with 
Hubert Davis now earning the big bucks with the Knicks.  (BTW, 
contrary to JD's thoroughly bogus report of Hubert's NBA progress, 
the reviews coming in are *outstanding*, virtually all noting Hubie's 
well-rounded game which is obviously a tribute to Dean - no surprise there.)

Anyway if Donald continues to play at this level (certainly not a 
gurantee, but the early returns are good) this team could go far.  
Only thing that's got me worries is that he, Lynch, Reese, and Phelps all 
were banged up in the Texas game and I haven't heard what their 
status is.  Last seen, Donald Williams was unable to leave the floor 
against Texas without help, Lynch had a huge bag_a ice on his ankle, 
Reese was suffering from injuries-unknown, and Derrick Phelps had a 
gimpy knee and Kenny_smith_style wrist injury.  :^(


- ACC Chris
    
17.4382A little bit of the good old days returns...CTHQ::MCCULLOUGHI survived Chuck E. CheeseMon Dec 07 1992 14:285
Well let me be the first to say it...

Welcome back, Soup.

=Bob=
17.4383AXIS::ROBICHAUDAHughAndCryForChangeAtFoxboroMon Dec 07 1992 14:299
    	Davis is riding the pine with the Knickerbockers Chris.  I'm
    here until Thursday (I think), so I might as well tell you now that
    this whole North Carolina relationship with me was a hoax.  I still
    now and will always feel that Reverend 'Snuff is the biggest
    underachiever in all of sports and that BOB KNIGHT is the best college
    basketball coach to ever grace the hardwood.  There, I can now leave
    ::SPORTS with a clear conscience.
    
    				/Don
17.4384WMOIS::COOK_TShow us your 2 inch verticalMon Dec 07 1992 14:332
    Snuffer "Gag Watch" Day 1...
    
17.4385CTHQ::LEARYWhy George why? Because it's there!Mon Dec 07 1992 14:337
    Anudder college prank, eh /?
    
    Must be a small software company in your future
    
    Ciao bud,
    MikeL
    
17.4386SCHOOL::RIEUSay Goodbye George!Mon Dec 07 1992 14:333
       I'll vouche for what Slasher just said Crisp. On several occasions
    I wore a Duke sweatshirt in his presence and he never batted a eye!
                                  Denny
17.4387Reprinted wifout permission! RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 07 1992 14:3741
    /Don you're a liar and I'm about to prove it.  But, just for the
    record, Hubert has been seeing sporadic action with the Knicks.  One
    game he doesn't get in, the next he sees 15 minutes and puts up 11
    points or so.  I've personally heard Pat Riley wax eloquent on Hubert,
    and he's not_a easy guy to please.
    
    Anyway, enjoy the attached, /Don, cause I sure did!  Haw haw!!!!1111
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    ============================================================================
    Note 110.9             THE CONTEST/THE TRIAL/THE EXORCISM         9 of 1218
    AXIS::ROBICHAUD "J.R. Reid lock for NBA ROTY"    25 lines 11-JAN-1990 12:25
                             -< The Ballad of Dean Smith >-
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Out of the land of Tobacco Roads myth,
            Came a coaching legend by the name of Dean Smith.
    
            A downtrodden program with rubes and hicks,
            Dean molded a training ground for NBA picks.
    
            With hard work, brains and unlimited zeal,
            He built the tradition of the mighty Tar Heels.
    
            A coaching genius with none as his peer,
            UNC dominates the ACC year after year.
    
            The NCAA Tourney is a crapshoot at best,
            And in no way a coach's ability does test.
    
            To annually dominate the best conference in the land,
            Is a truer, fairer measure of a coach's command.
    
            So here's to the Tar Heels and their amazing coach,
            An unbeatable program that is above reproach.
    
            The envy of many, the scorn of a misguided few,
            Three cheers for the mighty North Carolina Blue!
    
                                    /Don
17.4388so farHBAHBA::HAASGandhi Cactus JuiceMon Dec 07 1992 14:4316
>    Anudder college prank, eh /?

Yeah, but not by Slasher ...

On the matter of the Heels, now is a good time for them to be blowing
people out. It makes those late season chokes so much more enjoyable.
Donald Williams can indeed shoot the shot. Let's reserve judgement for
crunch times and see if Dean will let him shoot a la Hubie lasted season.

And for this point in the season, we can remove the Big10 from the Cream
of the Crop list. Duke beats Michigan, Kansas beats Indiana, and
Louisville beats Michigan St. We know that they ain't unbeatable. Now, at
the end of the season, we may see the supposed supremacy but not now,
thank you.

TTom
17.4389Could be a long year for State, but not the ACC.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 07 1992 14:5011
    True enough, TTom, but I'm still trying to understand how_a ACC team
    can lose to **NC-Wilmington**!!!  I mean, I know Michael is *from*
    Wilmington, but he has no clones that I know of playing for his
    hometown school.
    
    Hint on the team that lost to 'em:  They wear Red with 'S T A T E'
    painted across their jersies and have finished in 2nd place for all the
    top-flight prep talent this year.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4390wager where mouth isHBAHBA::HAASGandhi Cactus JuiceMon Dec 07 1992 15:0017
NC State is truly stinking up the courts this year. To date they have
lost to some makeshift team (a la Marathon Oil or the like), lost badly
at UNC-Wilmington, barely beat UNC-Ashville and lost saturday to UConn.

The only point in this season to date that they have shown they can
actually play basketball the first 12 minutes of the second half against
UConn. The Pack was down 20 and cut the lead to 3 before finally losing
by 9 or 10.

So far, given that they have no talent (see previous), what do you
expect? And if you're so hot on this, let's make a small wager - or big -
that they'll win another national championship before Dean does.

Clear bet. Clear terms. NC State wins its third championship before Dean
wins his second.

TTom
17.4391SCHOOL::RIEUSay Goodbye George!Mon Dec 07 1992 15:073
      HAHAHA! Crook using an entry from the rigged 'contest' as proof a
    anything is a real reach!
                                Denny
17.4392North Carolina prep talent was *top-notch* this year.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 07 1992 15:0816
    I'd be a fool not to take that bet, TTom.  State has zippo talent
    currently and has even less coming in next year.  This years crop of
    prep talent was one of the best in years, with several
    superstar-potential players on the open mark.  (Randy Livingston and
    Jerry Stackhouse being the creme-de-la-creme.  Livingston's bound for
    LSU, Stackhouse to UNC.)
    
    I'm starting to worry about Les.  No doubt the alum's aren't too happy
    about the bad records of late, but when you start to come up empty on
    the in-state talent, wail, that's something ya can't afford to do too
    many times in a row.  Hopefully Buzz Peterson has his resume updated,
    but given his contacts (i.e. he played for Dean) he'll land on his feet
    somewhere.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4393I only did it for the Celtic tickets Crisp...AXIS::ROBICHAUDAHughAndCryForChangeAtFoxboroMon Dec 07 1992 15:161
    
17.4394Okay, so mebee he's sore cause he didn't win.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 07 1992 15:189
    Sorry /Don but I don't buy it.  All we've got to go on is the
    (substantial) evidence and your rather lame (and late) testimony.
    
    You have been, are, and always will be True Carolina Blue!  (And may I
    offer a hearty congratulations and raise a toast toward that notable
    fact. :^) )
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4395Les swept DeanHBAHBA::HAASGandhi Cactus JuiceMon Dec 07 1992 15:1914
What's the wager then?

As far as talent goes, if all it took to win was talent, Dean woulda won
about 30 by now. In fact, the 83 Pack team shows what good coaching will
do with minimal talent especially when you compare them with the 83
Heels. Oh, I'm sorry, the refs did them in that year, or was it an injury
to one of the Heels. I get these excuses a little mixed up. One thing is
clear and that's State's won it since Dean has a condition that will
continue.

Yeah, some of the alumni are a little discouraged about Les. But then
they remember he swept Dean. 

TTom
17.4396not so clean ChrisHBAHBA::HAASGandhi Cactus JuiceMon Dec 07 1992 15:2712
This is rich. Chris Knorr bad mouthing someone to come clean.

For the record, I have communications from the parties involved. For a
small fee I'll release this information. For a larger fee, at least in
the case of Knorr, I won't.

But here's to Slasher and his I-Luv-Dean ruse. And here's to Knorr for
trying to be a Tar Heel. Hail, if anything, their *MY* Tar Heels. I pay
the bills. It's my state university. Chris, you really outta join the
Rams Club so you actually have some connection with UNC-Chapel Hill.

TTom
17.4397AXIS::ROBICHAUDCarolina BlewMon Dec 07 1992 15:404
    	That's right TTom knew of this scam I pulled on CrooKed from
    way back.  
    
    				/Don
17.4398From Bob Hunt....CAMONE::WAYCheez-Whiz, Choice of ChampionsMon Dec 07 1992 17:1015
To:	<cam::way>
CC:	
Subj:	Re: He's baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack......

'Saw,

There was a *scathing* article in a recent Charlotte Observer edition
that absolutely cold-cocked Snuffy for his refusal to play games
against in-state, non-ACC schools like UNC-Charlotte.
Tell Soup that he's lucky I ain't around no more to smack upside
da haid.

Regards ...
Bob Hunt

17.4399CTHQ::MCCULLOUGHI survived Chuck E. CheeseMon Dec 07 1992 17:2622
17.4400You had me goin', though. RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueMon Dec 07 1992 17:438
    re: 1Way
    
    Your note is a clear BobHunt forgery.  The man *never* used the word
    "ain't", and his notes were always dripping with sarcasm and
    mean-spiritedness.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4401CAMONE::WAYCheez-Whiz, Choice of ChampionsMon Dec 07 1992 17:4834
Nope.

I'll include the thing with all the internet headers.  Even as brilliant
as I am, I can't make those things up:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From:	DECWRL::"71251.2074@CompuServe.COM" "Robert E Hunt Jr"  7-DEC-1992 12:47:45.59
To:	<cam::way>
CC:	
Subj:	Re: He's baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack......

'Saw,

There was a *scathing* article in a recent Charlotte Observer edition
that absolutely cold-cocked Snuffy for his refusal to play games
against in-state, non-ACC schools like UNC-Charlotte.
Tell Soup that he's lucky I ain't around no more to smack upside
da haid.

Regards ...
Bob Hunt


% ====== Internet headers and postmarks (see DECWRL::GATEWAY.DOC) ======
% Received: by enet-gw.pa.dec.com; id AA15712; Mon, 7 Dec 92 09:47:56 -0800
% Received: by ihc.compuserve.com (5.65/5.910516) id AA02837; Mon, 7 Dec 92 12:47:51 -050
% Date: 07 Dec 92 12:42:21 EST
% From: Robert E Hunt Jr <71251.2074@CompuServe.COM>
% Subject: Re: He's baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack......
% Message-Id: <921207174221_71251.2074_DHJ47-1@CompuServe.COM>
% Apparently-To: <cam::way>

17.4402over theirHBAHBA::HAASGandhi Cactus JuiceTue Dec 08 1992 10:508
How humiliating, what with that their not they're or was it there!

I'll have to get a copy of that article that Bob Hunt with a_assist from
Sawmain mentioned. However, after thised years/year's/yours tourney, not
many teams wanna play Dean right now. They are (just to be sure) however
standing in line to play him when it matters.

TTom
17.4403PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollTue Dec 08 1992 12:532
    I'll vouch for /Don.  His infiltration of the Baby Blew society was
    perfect.  Even the head Smith worshipper never caught on.
17.4404More incriminating evidence. :^|RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Dec 08 1992 13:277
    ============================================================================
    Note 110.11            THE CONTEST/THE TRIAL/THE EXORCISM         11 of 1218
    AXIS::ROBICHAUD "Denver - The Team of the 90's"    3 lines 11-JAN-1990 12:36
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Hey Frank, I've always loved the Tar Heels and Dean Smith.
    
                                    /Don
17.4405Lemme know when ya wanna cop a plea, /Don.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Dec 08 1992 13:2810
    ============================================================================
    Note 110.20            THE CONTEST/THE TRIAL/THE EXORCISM         20 of 1218
    AXIS::ROBICHAUD "Go North Carolina"                5 lines 11-JAN-1990 13:55
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            I totally agree Nazz.  To see some people prostituting themselves
        like this is really a shame.  Myself, I've always idolized Dean
        Smith and the Tar Heels.  That's why I fight with MrT so much.
    
                                    /Don
    
17.4406SCHOOL::RIEULife after DEC!Tue Dec 08 1992 13:323
       No shame! Pulling quotes from the rigged contest note!! No shame at
    all!
                                    Denny
17.4407The only shame felt should be *yours*, Denny. Haw haw!!!!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Dec 08 1992 13:4611
    ============================================================================
    Note 110.12            THE CONTEST/THE TRIAL/THE EXORCISM         12 of 1218
    SALEM::RIEU "Patton,Reagan,JR,Dean"                8 lines 11-JAN-1990 12:39
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In the South there's a legend named Dean...<FF>
    Who's an awesome coaching machine...<FF>
    With JR's shootin'...<FF>
    And Chris Knorr's rootin...<FF>
    Carolina wins were routine.<FF>
                                                   Sincerely,
                                                   Denny
17.4408SCHOOL::RIEULife after DEC!Tue Dec 08 1992 14:103
       ...and I WAS ashamed, but it was an obvious (to everyone but you!)
    craven ploy!
                                  Denny
17.4409CAMONE::WAYCheez-Whiz, Choice of ChampionsTue Dec 08 1992 14:1911
I think it's pretty funny that after everyone in here who used to really
make ACC Chris look bad is gone, he comes back.   Too funny.


But, like a lot of other sports stuff, it just ain't the same.  I used to
love watchin' Bob hoist Chris by his own petard, or watching MrT
make ACC Chris look like a plate stacker as he breezed on by for easy
layup after easy layup, but now it's just not the same......


'Saw
17.4410UNC > Duke? Could be soon!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Dec 08 1992 14:2912
    The Sporting News is reporting a rumor that Rasheed Wallace will defy
    the experts and ink with Carolina over Villanova, Temple, et al.  For
    those living in a cave somewhere, Wallace is the #1 ranked prep center
    in the USA, who can probably also play BF in college.  Because he
    hasn't hit the magic number on his SAT's he won't sign until the
    spring.  He's expected to pass though.
    
    *IF* Wallace signs with Carolina I'd elevate the program past Duke for
    the next several years ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4411SCHOOL::RIEULife after DEC!Tue Dec 08 1992 14:385
       Sounds like a perfect scenario for the continuing gross
    underacheivement we all come to expect from the Blews. Think this
    Rasheed Wallace would be another Walt Williams nobody if he went to
    Maryland?
                               Denny
17.4412CNTROL::CHILDSI must not think Bad ThoughtsTue Dec 08 1992 16:028
Seems to me that I was watching a special on the Greats of College Basketball
and the three greatest coaches were Bob Knight, Aldolph Rupp and John Wooden.
Not a DEAN  in sight of the top....

Looks like Duke will win the ACC fairly easy this year...

mike
17.4413TORREY::MAY_BRjust another maytag salesmanTue Dec 08 1992 16:2210
>I think it's pretty funny that after everyone in here who used to really
>make ACC Chris look bad is gone, he comes back.   Too funny.
>
>'Saw
    
    
    Not true 'saw, Dean's still coaching, and he's the one who makes Chris
    look REAL bad.
    
    Brews
17.4414ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Tue Dec 08 1992 16:314
    Watch out everyone. It looks like Brews is taking over for Bob H.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
17.4415WMOIS::COOK_TShow us your 2 inch verticalTue Dec 08 1992 17:347
    re .4409
    
    Don't worry Frank, its a self fufilling phrophcy march madness time. 
    Then it will seem like old times...heh heh heh...
    
    Conan
    
17.4416DECWET::METZGERThis space being flea bombed..Tue Dec 08 1992 20:248

Only two more years for the greatest recruiting class of all time to win a 
championship....



Metz
17.4417Carolina advanced to 4-0. Next up: Houston (Sunday)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Dec 10 1992 13:0613
    Carolina "struggled" to_a 16 point "W" over Virginia Tech last night. 
    I say struggled because, when you're used to winning by close to 40 per
    game, a 16-point margin is slim.  Heh heh!
    
    UNC played the game without Donald Williams and Brian Reese, who were
    both injured in the Texas game on Sunday.  On Dean's coaches last night
    (filmed Sunday night after the Texas game) he mentioned that they both 
    *might* play against Virginia Tech, so I'm optimistically thinking that
    neither injury is serious.  Any additional details (you out there,
    TTOM?) are appreciated.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4418Or will it be "crow" time againCTHQ::LEARYWhy George why? Because it's there!Thu Dec 10 1992 13:3011
    Yo CHris,
    
    When does ND travel to Chapel Hell for a rematch with dem Heels?
    UNC will be gunnin' for revenge after last year's game. Say with
    the Irish losing the Big Three, UNC will be favored by at least 50.
    Tell you what, give me 40 points and if you win by the spread, I'll
    send you autographed pictures of Kelly Tripucka and Bill Laimbeer.
    
    
    MikeL
    
17.4419Homecoming for Jimmy Black. :^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Dec 10 1992 13:4111
    ND visits Chapel Hill February 24th.  (This game is sandwiched between
    manly ACC visits to Virginia and Florida State.)
    
    After the way The Irish played against IU I'll offer no 40 point
    spreads, but I will say that a win for the visitors would be, er,
    unlikely.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4420AXIS::ROBICHAUDCarolina BlewThu Dec 10 1992 14:523
    	ND vs. UNC.  As Denny would say it's to bad someone has to win...
    
    				/Don
17.4421Dean Smith <> Bill Palmer!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Dec 10 1992 15:2411
    /Don your last few days at DEC are starting to remind me of Woody
    Hayes' not_so_graceful departure from Ohio State.  
    
    You're a bitter main, /Don, but your bitterness is misguided!  Dean and
    Carolina aren't too blame for the slumping computer biz and the
    resulting massive cold-blooded layoffs.  
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4422FRETZ::HEISERJesus: the reason for the seasonThu Dec 10 1992 15:272
    It must smell better in Charlotte today now that one of the largest Tar 
    Heels have been shipped to Texas.
17.4423heathen!!CTHQ::LEARYWhy George why? Because it's there!Thu Dec 10 1992 17:024
    just for that Slash, I'm taking back your sarong and UNC cap
    
    MikeL
    
17.4424one less Tar HeelHBAHBA::HAASGandhi Cactus JuiceThu Dec 10 1992 21:2514
Actually, getting rid of JR helps the Tar Heel fans out alot. They hated
JR and whenever they really rev up the Dean-is-God and the Heels are the
best stuff you could always cool their jets by mentioning JR.

Evidently, the theory went that all that money that Michael Jordan and
the former Tar Heels make in the NBA is due to Dean but the fact that JR
didnt' quite make it was JR's fault and had nothing to do with Dean.

In any case, they won't have JR to kick around anymore.

As to the No Carolina win over Va Tech, all I heard was the score. I
didn't get the line so I don't know if'n the Heels even covered or not.

TTom
17.4425UNC *averaged* 83.5ppg last yearRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Dec 11 1992 17:2429
> Only because the NCAA felt that they had to legislate it out of
> existence otherwise Dean would still be clinging to it.

Which does nothing to answer my charges that your basketball expertise
is dated by approximately 1 decade, which is about right, seeing's how
that's closing in on the time the BigEast last challenged the ACC or Big10
for supremacy.  


> Well, they didn't manage 80 against mighty Virginia Tech so I guess
> they don't do it all that "easily".

Apparently you missed my qualifer that mentioned Carolina is a very high-
scoring team *IF* the opposition chooses to play uptempo.  Obviously 
Virginia Tech chose not to, cause in 2 outa Carolina's previous 3 games
they scored over 100, and the third was close to 90.  Note that UNC was
also playing without 40% of its starters, including its leading scorer
(Donald Williams). 


> I bet all the "many college hoops people" that you know consider Dean 
> a helluva coach, too. Kinda puts it in perspective.

I've heard many criticisms of UNC basketball, but, 4Corners not withstanding,
"boring" has never been one of 'em.


- ACC Chris  
    
17.4426expense seat on the benchHBAHBA::HAASGandhi Cactus JuiceFri Dec 11 1992 17:2811
Re No Carolina, whose main claim to fame seems to be how much money the
basketball players make in the NBA:

Hubie Davis was notable with his absence lasted night as the Knicks lost
to the Hornets. Evidently he's been moved down the pine along just behind
Tony Campbell who himself is playing less and less. Hubie is sitting
despite the fact that Starks is going through a real shooting slump.

Perhaps Donald Williams needs to consider this development...

TTom
17.4427Keeping this in perspective ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Dec 11 1992 17:3712
    Come off it, TTom.  All rookies go thru their ups and downs.  Hubie has
    drawn considerable praise from his tough-minded coach and will, IMO,
    continue to have his highs and lows this year.
    
    Remember: Hubert was barely even recruited out of HS.  Dean converted
              him into an NBA first round pick and a very wealthy young
    	      man.  I've a sneaky suspicion Donald Williams *has* paid
    	      attention to Hubie's development, now that ya mention it!
    	      Heh heh haw!!!1
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4428I said "if!! and we had guys hurt" hahaaaaCNTROL::CHILDSJohn Elway NFL Baby of the Year WinnerFri Dec 11 1992 17:504
 Didn't take long to get a perch and twirl move now did it?  ;^)

 mike 
17.4429Where's the Bob Hunt Tar Heel Excuse Bible?HBAHBA::HAASGandhi Cactus JuiceFri Dec 11 1992 18:220
17.4430MSBCS::BRYDIEThe Mothership ConnectionFri Dec 11 1992 18:2713
    
    >> I've heard many criticisms of UNC basketball, but, 4Corners not 
    >> withstanding, "boring" has never been one of 'em.
 
        To be honest I have on occasion found the Tar Heels to be
       entertaining. Probably never more so than when Deano took
       the time to shake the other teams hands after he'd been booted.
       Was that last year during the tourney ?(one forgets they've had 
       so many untimely exits) Talk about phonier than a Van Gogh of a 
       bunch of dogs playin' cards. Ranked right up there with Sweet 
       Jane's prayer act during the World Seies.
           
    
17.4431This is why I'm proud to count Dean Smith as my mentor. :^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueFri Dec 11 1992 18:5312
    re: Dean's early exit
    
    I'll never forget the fine journalist piece Charles Kuralt did on
    Sunday after Pete Pavia's incredible toss of Deano.  Said it was one of
    the finest exhibitions of sportsmanship he'd ever seen, expanding on
    that by saying that Dean Smith was clearly a class act who kept
    collegiate athletics in perspective.
    
    I couldn't agree more.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4432MSBCS::BRYDIEThe Mothership ConnectionFri Dec 11 1992 19:332
    
     Thanks for the chuckle.
17.4433DECWET::METZGERThis space being flea bombed..Fri Dec 11 1992 20:5716
It's amazing how Crisp comes back in here after his two main spankers have 
departed for greener pastures...

I didn't know Dean had taken such an interest in you Crisp...Mentor indeed..I doubt
if he even knows you exist on this planet (grovelling in person and and worship
letters not withstanding)


BTW - Starks looked pretty good when I saw him against the Sonics...good 
penetration and pretty decent shooting. What have his problems been?


Metz


17.4434CUPMK::DEVLINThe bill is due for the last 12 years...Wed Dec 16 1992 12:2119
And where is the Crisper now that the highly overrated Florida State has
lost its THIRD game of the season, this time to perreniel Powerhouse
Duquesne 91-84.   But wait, the Seminoles can use one of BobHuntsExcuses:

"Injuries"

and another one:

"Coming off a 2-week layoff"

Oh, and another one:

"Duquesne was HOT"

Oh and ANOTHER ONE:

"The layoff was due to preparing for Final exams!"

JD
17.4435CTHQ::MCCULLOUGHMelanie ate baby food!!!Wed Dec 16 1992 12:287
17.4436DUQUESNE BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHWMOIS::CHAPALONIS_MNo. 3 Looms over FENWAYWed Dec 16 1992 12:347
    
    
    Hey Chris...
    
            How bout that Powerful ACC.
    
    Chappy
17.4437I hope FSU underachieves against UNC this year too ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 16 1992 13:3319
    You're a hypocrite JD.  How many times have you explained to me that
    end-of-season peaks are all that matters in college basketball?  HOW
    MANY?!?!  Countless, I suspect.
    
    As to that crack about Florida State academics, I'd be careful.  True,
    the athletes get a free ride, but that's the norm for most big-time
    programs.  I know *plenty* of FSU grads who're doin' quite nicely,
    despite not having gone to_a LiberalNortheastCorridorCollege/University.
    
    In related news, North Carolina won a perfectly meaningless game on
    Sunday by 8 over a strong Houston squad.  Donald Williams sparked the
    Heels with 21 points in only 19 minutes of action.  (Before ya get all
    hot and excited JD 'bout Dean suppressing his sophomore scoring
    machine, keep in mind the kid hurt his ribs last weekend against
    Texas, missed the Virginia Tech game, and had to wear a flack-jacket
    against the Cougars just to play.)
    
    
    
17.4438MSBCS::BRYDIEThe Mothership ConnectionWed Dec 16 1992 13:352
    
     Isn't FSU playing without point guard Charlie Ward ?
17.4439Starting PG in hoops; starting QB in football. Not too shabby ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 16 1992 13:5510
    re: .4438
    
    Yes, but that's no excuse.  With or without Ward, they're tough.  The
    biggest thing that Ward lets them do is move Sam Cassell to shooting
    guard and incorporate their typically deadly 3-guard offense.  However
    Pat Kennedy said before the season he wanted to run a more traditional
    lineup, presumably to get 7-footer Andre Reid into the picture more.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4440CUPMK::DEVLINThe bill is due for the last 12 years...Wed Dec 16 1992 14:1414
Crisp,

FIrst, I made no mention of FSU's academic programs - that was Bob McCullough.

Second, my note was in reply to your noting any Big East or Big Ten loss
to a second tier team - and citing it as PROOF supreme that it shows that
conference is in demise, etc.....

I did however feel FSU, with a 3-2 record, was not deserving of being
ranked #10 before lasted night.

Stick with me Chris, and tell me if I'm going to fast...

JD
17.4441WMOIS::COOK_TShow us your 2 inch verticalWed Dec 16 1992 15:137
    I think I'll extract that pearl in .4439 for future reference when 
    injuries are an allowable excuse!
    
    Haw!!!
    
    Conan
    
17.4442More ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 16 1992 20:0135
    > FIrst, I made no mention of FSU's academic programs - that was Bob
    > McCullough.
    
    Nyah, shadup JD.  I never said you were the one claiming FSU was a
    diploma factory.  Prove to me that I accused you of that.  (You cain't, 
    cause I didn't.)
    
    > Second, my note was in reply to your noting any Big East or Big Ten 
    > loss to a second tier team - and citing it as PROOF supreme that it 
    > shows that conference is in demise, etc.....
    
    Let's understand and agree on at least one thing here:  NOBODY, repeat,
    NOBODY, is claiming that the BigEast is still a contender for the top
    conference in the land.  NOBODY.  They're strictly second-tier at this
    point.  HTH.
    
    Miscellaneous Other Points:
    
    1. The most distressing part of the FSU "L" is that they were up by
       20 big ones in the 2nd half, only to choke away the lead.  The
       'Noles also got a career performance outof Bobby Sura, who tossed
       in 30+ points.  
    
    2. I noticed Jeff Sagarin's Top 2 today in his well-respected Power
       Rating of college basketball:
    
    	1. Kansas
        2. North Carolina
    
    Now, what do these two (2) programs have in common?!  Hmmm .....
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
17.4443Chris has those blinders on againDEMING::MCKAYWed Dec 16 1992 20:518
    Chris, how big is this imaginary top tier that nobody is claiming
    the Big East is on.  Would that tier be big enough for just the ACC
    or would you be so gracious as to include the Big Ten and maybe just
    maybe if you were having a good day include the Big Eight.  Why don't
    you rate ALL the conferences in Division 1 and I think you'll find the
    Big East near the top of the list, even your list.......
    
    Jimbo
17.4444ACESMK::FRANCUSMets in '93Thu Dec 17 1992 11:336
    Princeton beat North Carolina State last night. Heh heh. Always a
    pleasure to see real student athletes beating up on one of the "major"
    college divisions.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
17.4445CUPMK::DEVLINThe bill is due for the last 12 years...Thu Dec 17 1992 11:349
From the absurb department:

FSU losses to DUQUESNE AND REMAINS #9....AT 3-3...

Chris - your note is addressed:  JD

One can only assume that everything in it is thereby addressed to JD>

JD
17.4446CUPMK::DEVLINThe bill is due for the last 12 years...Thu Dec 17 1992 11:372
BAHAHAHAHA  First Duquesne, then Princeton.  Which powerhouse will an
ACC team lose to nexted.....
17.4447MSBCS::BRYDIEThe Mothership ConnectionThu Dec 17 1992 11:518

     Not even ten games into the season and folks are already
    deciding the pecking order. Why go on ? Why not just hand
    out the national title and then start in on pro basketball ?
    At this rate we'll be able to hand out the World Series 
    trophy by Christmas.
    
17.4448MSBCS::BRYDIEThe Mothership ConnectionThu Dec 17 1992 11:5615
    >> You're a hypocrite JD.  How many times have you explained to 
    >> me that end-of-season peaks are all that matters in college 
    >> basketball?  HOW MANY?!?!  Countless, I suspect.

       He called you a hypocrite, JD. My goodness.

    >> I know *plenty* of FSU grads who're doin' quite nicely, despite not 
    >> having gone to_a LiberalNortheastCorridorCollege/University.
    
       I can vouch for this. Having gone to a LiberalNortheastCorridorCollege/
       University myself, I know for a fact that FSU grads make damn good
       employees and are absolutely no threat to my job.
    
    
    
17.4449JD, you sure that poll came out *after* the FSU loss?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Dec 17 1992 12:0923
    Princeton handed the proud ACC a nasty blow last night, hanging a_ugly
    'L' on the NC State Wufpack.  I'll leave it to TTom to explain this one
    away but, having watched most of the game, will assume he'll state the
    obvious: Les Robinson is overrated, NC State is very weak, and
    Princeton simply made them look *sick* (even by their standards, since
    the Tigers tend to make everybody look just a little bit worse than
    they are).
    
    In sum, State will be battling Clemson for the basement of the ACC but,
    if they manage the miraculous and somehow manage to upset UNC, TTom
    will write this one off as_a successful season.  Bah.  :^(
    
    
    re: Brydie
    
    I don't know the FSU grads that work for you, but of the two (2) I know
    personally, one's a lawyer making some sizeable bucks; the other's got
    his own home appraisal biz that's moving him outa my neighborhood
    but_quick.  (Oh, forgot, the lawyer's wife is_a 'Nole too.  She's a
    homemaker, FWIW.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4450METSNY::francusMets in '93Thu Dec 17 1992 15:533
Au contraire  it was a beautiful Ivy League win.

The Crazy Met
17.4451relative ratingHBAHBA::HAASGandhi Cactus JuiceThu Dec 17 1992 18:5818
I'll explain it: State is horrible. Right now, I'd take weak.

The excuse business is much more a function, and possibly a_integral
part, of Tar Heelism. I haven't read a single opinion that the Pack were
supposed to be good thised year so it'd be a stretch to call them
overrated. If Les gets the rap for this then Dean gets the credit for
all those championship chokejobs. 

Now what is relevant and worth criticizing Les is in the area of
recruiting. Given who he's got, his coaching has not been noteworthy one
way or the other. 

Ga Tech beat Georgia. Must mean that the SEC is worse than the ACC. So
the best I can make it out it's:

	Ivy League, East Something > ACC > SEC

TTom
17.4452METSNY::francusMets in '93Thu Dec 17 1992 19:158
> 	Ivy League, East Something > ACC > SEC

Would be nice, wouldn't it. But hey even us Ivy guys are realistic about this.
It would be interesting to see the results if Princeton played NC or Duke.
I assume NCor Duke would win, question is how easily and by how much.

The Crazy Met
17.4453sliding scaleHBAHBA::HAASGandhi Cactus JuiceThu Dec 17 1992 19:2118
We almost saw No Carolina-Princeton at the tourney here in Charlotte. The
Tar Heels won but Princeton lost to Texas who was routed. Along with
Houston that must mean ACC > SWC but this stuff gets a little
complicated.

Looking just at Ga Tech it must follow:
	SEC (Kentucky) > ACC (Ga Tech) > SEC (Georgia)

And so far State goes:

	Big East (UConn) > ACC (State)

I think we need a large multidimensional matrix that's probably
unsolvable within our lifetimes. 

Or maybe wait until the championship is won ...

TTom
17.4454SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Thu Dec 17 1992 19:2625
    
    	What's the big problem?  Princeton IMO is a great team to watch..
    Notice, I did say team.  I find it rather refreshing that a team is 
    still able to beat another group of players who may have more talent
    then they do.
    
    	Watching a team like Princeton simply re-emphasizes the fact that
    basketball is still a team sport and if played as a team, they can
    be competitive with even the best individual athletes.
    
    	This ain't a knock on the ACC either.  Princeton just plays very
    well as a team and has the discipline to stick to their
    gameplan/offense.
    
    	In fact, if I were coaching a bunch of 'little' kids, even HS, I'd
    have them look at film on how Princeton runs their offense.  I don't
    totally agree with all the 3-pointers, but I like their offensive
    unity and the fact that they continue to run the same offense 'till
    it works.'
    
    	This team is simply a good example of how to overcome supposedly
    unsurmountable odds.
    
    bill..g.
    
17.4455CNTROL::CHILDSJohn Elway NFL Baby of the Year WinnerThu Dec 17 1992 19:315
and this Hoya fan was rootin' for them to do it back in 89 down in Providence
when the no 1 seeded Hoyas beat the Tigers seeded 64th in the tourney by a mere
1 point. Man was Thompson ever hot that night. He sure did bully the refs into a
few calls.....The crowd was electric with anticipation of the upset too bad it
didn't go down that way. ....
17.4456Basketball 101RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Dec 17 1992 20:1423
    The Princeton offensive philosophy is actually quite simple.  It states
    that we will take *ONLY* two (2) types of shots:
    
    1. Lay-ups
    2. 3-pointers
    
    When you're an underdog this philosophy works to your advantage because
    usually you're an underdog because you're small, and shooting
    long-range shots facilitates long rebounds, which works to the small
    teams advantage.  
    
    One point worth mentioning about Princeton.  Nobody wants to play 'em,
    and they usually give the favorite fits, but they also usually lose. 
    When's the last time they ever advanced to any depth in the NCAA
    Tourney?  Probably back when Dollar Bill Bradley was still playing.
    And when you factor in the fact that NC State has already lost to
    (gulp!) NC-Wilmington, a team even Princeton would be favored to beat,
    wail, this huge upset doesn't look quite so huge.  Incorporating
    Princeton's relative homecourt advantage into the equation and the
    outcome is very unsurprising (but still disapointing to this ACC fain).
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4457METSNY::francusMets in '93Thu Dec 17 1992 20:207
And the only lay-up Princeton gets in their half-court offense
is back door cuts, back door cuts, and some more back door cuts.

Princeton got to at least to the semifinals during one of Bradley's
years there, maybe even to the championship game, but I don't think so.

The Crazy Met
17.4458CAMONE::WAYCheez-Whiz, Choice of ChampionsThu Dec 17 1992 20:268
I'm really going to enjoy it when UNC does their annual choke-a-rama
in the NCAAs this year.  I really am.


Bob says it'll be all the sweeter for Chris coming back out of hiding....


'Saw
17.4459DECWET::METZGERThis space being flea bombed..Thu Dec 17 1992 22:0219
I think that a decent showing by Princeton every year in the NCaa's shows how
good a team they really are. They are always given an awful seed in the 
tourney and the fact that they lose to the #1 or #2 ranked team in the country 
is nothing to be ashamed about. They usually lose by less than the top ranked
teams next opponent...

I'd love to see them advance further every year but the lack of Nukewidebodystuds
that manage to meet the Princeton academic eligibility sort of hampers them...
if ya know what I mean...

I like watching them because you know these guys are going to go on to be 
successes in other areas besides hoops....

Oh Yeah...UNC sucks..two more years for the greatest recruiting class of all
time..Tic,Tic,Tic...


Metz
17.4460SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Fri Dec 18 1992 14:4452
    
    	Geez, some folks really don't get it.
    
    	So, the only two shots Princeton takes are layups and 3 pointers?
    If it were true, there's simply nothing wrong with that if they are
    considered high percentage shots.  Gee, Patino says if the shot isn't
    in the paint, it had better be behind the 3 point line.  So I guess
    Patino is all wet too because the only 2 types of shots he lets his
    team take are either in the paint or behind the 3 point line.  Some
    coaches would love to have that type of discipline over their players!
    
    	Then, when they do get a layup, it is only a backdoor layup as if
    backdoor is something less than a normal layup.  Backdoor proves that
    the other team doesn't play defense to well if you really want to get
    technical.  The only real problem with backdoor is that it is kind of
    embarassing.
    
    	As for Princeton barely making it etc. this is another bunch of
    crap.  When they had Bradley, they won the NIT which was considered
    bigger then the NCAA.  Secondly, coming from basically a Div. II 
    league (Ivy) they manage to make do pretty well when playing the elite.  
    I seem to recall them giving Georgetown quite a battle, as they do with 
    almost every Goliath they face.  Bottom line in a bunch of those games is 
    that the other teams are for the most part outcoached and only through
    vastly superior talent are they able to eek out a win.
    
    	Everyone pisses and moans about the way Princeton plays, but when
    a big 35 team plays similarly, it's said to be cerebral.  Anyone doubt
    that, just look at NC and the 4-corners.  What a lot of folks seem to
    forget is that it's a game of getting the other team to play your game.  
    What's amazing is that they continually are successful in getting the
    other team to play their game even though they know what they are 
    going to do.  And I tell you, that is a sign of good coaching and
    discipline.
    
    	Now, no one wants to play Princeton cause they know it won't be
    a cakewalk and in fact, they might even lose.  It's one thing for a 
    top 35 team to lose to another top 35 team, but lose to Princeton?
    Who they got besides a bunch of SAT Nerds?
    
    	Give the Princeton coach the talent of a NC, Kentucky, IU, etc 
    and it would be downright scary!!  This team is playing and being
    competitive at the upper levels of Div. I with a bunch of Div. II
    players! 
    
    	And to think that some in here would point out that they mainly
    lose when facing a 'really' good team.  As if that is something to
    be ashamed of especially when they don't even possess a top 200 recruit.
    
    
    	bill..g.
    
17.4461METSNY::francusMets in '93Fri Dec 18 1992 14:5013
Woooooaaah! Slow down Bill. I know that I was mostly having fun in
describing the shots Princeton takes, and would even give the others
the benefit of  the doubt on this one. No question that Princeton has
been a good team for many years. 

This years Ivy League race has the potential of finally being interesting.
Both Penn and Columbia have teams that are supposed to be quite good, with
good coaches as well. Princeton is still the favorite but not the
prohibitive favorite that it has been the last few years.

Now back to the ACC.

The Crazy Met
17.4462PLUGH::NEEDLEMoney talks. Mine says &quot;Good-Bye!&quot;Fri Dec 18 1992 15:414
I sense a SPORTS get together at Harvard when Penn or Princeton is in town. 
Those nerds will never know what hit them :-).

j. 
17.4463UNC W's and Basketball Philosophy 201 (Advanced Level)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 23 1992 12:5551
    Couple of Midwestern W's for the Heels - Sunday over undermanned Butler
    (@ Butler) and last night @ Ohio State.  The Bucks are coming off some
    nasty graduation losses, but with a loud and vocal home floor advantage
    they made a game of it.  They led at the half (by 3) and withstood a
    clinical North Carolina 2nd half run to close the gap to 5 with 5
    minutes to play.  UNC cranked it up a notch or two to register the 20
    point win, but it was a closer game than that.  Montross and Lynch
    proved > Lawrence Funderburp, who mouthed off most of the game (as is
    typical) but played pretty well (also typical).  Ohio State will get
    better and probably be middle-of-the-pack in the B10 this year, IMO.
    
    
    re: bill..g.
    
    Found your note interesting (I'm always up for_a hoops philosophy
    discussion, as anyone knows ...)  but clearly mistake-prone.  Here's a
    few examples:
    
    1. Your assertion that Princeton suckers opponents into "their" style
       of play, as if the Tigers have all the smarts and the opponents all
       the talent, is bogus.  If you decide to run the shot clock down on
       every possession and take only 3 point shots and lay-ups (and you've
       got the ballhandling and shooting talent to pull it off) you're gonna 
       "sucker" ANY opponent in.  There's simply not a danged thing an
       opponent can do about it, if you're disciplined enough.  (And
       Princeton is nothing if not disciplined.)
    
    2. Your assertion that Pete Carril would somehow win zillions of games
       "if he only had the talent" (boo hoo) is even more bogus.  The only
       way to win consistently at the highest levels is owning the backboards.
       The 3-point shot has been somewhat of an equalizer in this regard
       (i.e. giving the underdog a chance, especially with all the long
       rebounds that 3-point shots create) but the simple fact is that
       playing Princeton's style at the highest level would garnish an
       occasional big upset but would hardly make for a consistently
       winning program.
    
       Rick Pitino is the closest coach you'll find to employing the
       Princeton philosophy at the highest levels, but there's no way
       he takes it to the extreme that Carril does, and rightly so.
    
       All of this assumes, of course, that a coach like Carril could
       go out and get top-flight talent to play his game, to which I'd
       reply "Ha ha!!".  No decent prep talent is gonna want even a wiff
       of his boring style.  Credit the likes of Jim Boehiem who, despite
       being a whiner extra-ordinaire and questionable game coach realized
       a long, long time ago that talent wins, and the way to attract
       talent is to let kids play up-tempo basketball.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4464more newsHBAHBA::HAASA Log of EffortWed Dec 23 1992 13:2019
>       ... realized
>       a long, long time ago that talent wins, and the way to attract
>       talent is to let kids play up-tempo basketball.

Why hasn't Dean come to this realization? He's got the talent part down.
But one can hardly call his system one in which he lets the kids play in
any way. They play his way or they don't play.

On another No Carolina front, Dr. Linnea Smith, a psychiatrist married to
Dean, has started a letter writing campaign to Sports Illustrated to
protest the inclusion of children in the swimsuit issues, which she
believes causes confusion among the young readers. It's unclear whether
she  wants to stop these annual issues or just make SI quit having
children involved. 

Dr. Smith made headlines lasted year when she was mugged in the Dean Dome
parking lot.

TTom
17.4465More ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 23 1992 13:3721
    The point, TTom, is that Syracuse (and virtually every other top program
    in the country) plays up-tempo basketball.  Your attempt to drag Dean
    into every philosophical basketball discussion is truly saddening.  :^(
    
    
    re: Dean's wife
    
    True 'nuf.  She made the front page of the SPORTS section here in
    Atlanta.  It's tough to disagree with her.  Apparently there was a shot
    of Christie Brinkley a few years ago where she was obviously topless
    and her daughter naked.
    
    She's fighting an uphill battle though.  SI claims that the swimsuit
    issue is "An American Institution", which pretty much sums things up
    from my perspective.  (i.e. swim suit issue began in the 60's, which
    marked the beginning of a steep decline in morals and values in the
    USA, culminating now by the defense of showing pornographic material
    being that it's okay cause it's "instituionalized".  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4466Dean wouldn't approveHBAHBA::HAASA Log of EffortWed Dec 23 1992 13:406
One irony of all this is that Dean is himself a liberal who is very much
pro free speach and pro 1st amendment.

How's that for dragging Dean into a discussion.

TTom
17.4467;^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 23 1992 13:4615
    re: .-1
    
    I made a mistake in .4465.  Instead of saying:
    
    "Your attempt to drag Dean into every philosophical basketball discussion 
    is truly saddening. :^("
    
    I *should've said:
    
    "Your attempt to drag Dean into EVERY discussion is truly saddening.
    :^("
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.4468CTHQ::MCCULLOUGHMelanie ate baby food!!!Wed Dec 23 1992 13:471
17.4469WMOIS::COOK_TShow us your 2 inch verticalWed Dec 23 1992 13:518
    re .4467
    
    Does this sadness apply to yourself based on your note 15.1283?
    
    Enquiring mind...
    
    Conan
    
17.4470and other ACC newsHBAHBA::HAASA Log of EffortWed Dec 23 1992 14:0913
Thank you.

On other ACC fronts, Duke beat Dale Brown handily in the Maui classic,
96-67. They play for the championship against BYU who beat Memphis St.

California beat Wake, 81-65. Too much Jason Kidd.

Georgia Tech beat Miami o' Ohio, 65-49. James Forrest had 21 points and
17 rebounbs.

Florida St beat Arkansas-Little Rock, 95-64. 11 Seminols scored.

TTom
17.4471METSNY::francusMets in '93Wed Dec 23 1992 14:175
17.4472The usually reliable TTom makes a (small) errorRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 23 1992 14:195
    Correction TTom:  Tech beat Tennessee-Chattanooga (Malcolm's Mackey's
    "homecoming" game, an idea Cremins borrowed from Dean), not Miami, OH.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4473MSBCS::BRYDIEThe Mothership ConnectionWed Dec 23 1992 14:1910
        
    >> She's fighting an uphill battle though.  SI claims that the swimsuit
    >> issue is "An American Institution", which pretty much sums things up
    >> from my perspective.  

       A truly noble cause. Far too many lives have been lost, far too many
       families broken, far too many a promising youth led astray. And why ?
       Because Kathy Ireland was photographed wearing a thong bikini. It's
       about time someone put an end to this travesty.
    
17.4474he who is without ...HBAHBA::HAASA Log of EffortWed Dec 23 1992 14:2711
re: .4472

Definitely a clerical error on the part of this reporter.

>    "homecoming" game, an idea Cremins borrowed from Dean), not Miami, OH.

Saddening, bring up Dean again like that. 

BTW, the UPI named Forrest Player o' the Week.

TTom
17.4475SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Wed Dec 23 1992 14:3172
    
    re: .4463
    
    	ACC Chris,
    
>    1. Your assertion that Princeton suckers opponents into "their" style
       of play, as if the Tigers have all the smarts and the opponents all
       the talent, is bogus.  If you decide to run the shot clock down on
       every possession and take only 3 point shots and lay-ups (and you've
       got the ballhandling and shooting talent to pull it off) you're gonna 
       "sucker" ANY opponent in.  There's simply not a danged thing an
       opponent can do about it, if you're disciplined enough.  (And
>       Princeton is nothing if not disciplined.)
    
    I find it amusing that other more talented teams cannot break
    Princeton out of this mold.  I also don't believe from what I've seen
    that Princeton runs down the shot clock in every instance.  In the
    limited times I've seen them play, when they get a good shot, they
    take it.  Now if it takes 40 seconds to get that shot so be it.
    And, you did hit the nail on the head here when you stated that
    Princeton is disciplined.
    
>    2. Your assertion that Pete Carril would somehow win zillions of games
       "if he only had the talent" (boo hoo) is even more bogus.  The only
       way to win consistently at the highest levels is owning the backboards.
       The 3-point shot has been somewhat of an equalizer in this regard
       (i.e. giving the underdog a chance, especially with all the long
       rebounds that 3-point shots create) but the simple fact is that
       playing Princeton's style at the highest level would garnish an
       occasional big upset but would hardly make for a consistently
>       winning program.
    
    No, I don't believe it is bogus and I never said he would win 
    "zillions" of games.  I think he has proven over the years that he
    has been very successful given the fact that he fields a team made
    up of Div. II talent.  For that, he should be applauded.  Secondly,
    controlling the backboards is not a guarantee of success.  If a team
    shoots well, you can control the backboards all you want and still
    end up losing the game handily.  Defense, shot selection and shooting
    percentage are winning formulas, not necessarily controlling the 
    backboards.
    
>       All of this assumes, of course, that a coach like Carril could
       go out and get top-flight talent to play his game, to which I'd
       reply "Ha ha!!".  No decent prep talent is gonna want even a wiff
>       of his boring style.  Credit the likes of Jim Boehiem who, despite
    
    This is simply a matter of opinion.  Dean did quite well in recruiting
    when he bored us to death with the 4 corners, but he still got the
    talent to come there even though he runs a constricting offense
    himself.  Top talent is going to go where the money and larger programs
    are.  Where there is a history of NBA afterlife too.  All of these,
    plus the fact that you need to read and write to attend Princeton are
    the main reasons why the best prep talent evades Princeton, and not
    the coaching of Carril.
    
    As for uptempo basketball, phooey!  Uptempo means different things to
    different people.  Now, I would say that if you want the college game
    to be nothing more than an extra-CBA league, then go uptempo all you
    want, but there are plenty of coaches that don't play up-tempo
    basketball, including Dean, that are successful and whos teams are
    fun to watch.
    
    Why is it that every team has to look and play alike before it can get
    any respect?  Princeton does very well given the position it is in.
    Although I don't totally agree with their style of play, I do find it
    refreshing when they give the big 35 fits!  Of course, this is due to
    the fact that Princeton doesn't play like the rest of the top 35 and
    therein lies the main problem.
    
    
    bill..g.
17.4476North Carolina on the Rise (#5); America in DeclineRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 23 1992 14:3419
    re: .4469 (Conan)
    
    How *DARE* u insinuate that somehow I bend the truthfulness of my
    college hoops insight around Dean Smith.  No way, bucko.  While Dean
    may be my college basketball mentor, my insights are proprietary and
    Coach Smith is held up to critique and evaluation by yours truly along
    with everybody else.  HTH.
    
    
    re: Brydie
    
    Unfortunately the cause-and-effect relationship between things like 
    institutionalized pornography and the errosion of America that you
    ridicule is oh-so-real, or do you choose to disregard the staggering
    increase of teenage pregnancy, teenage sexual diseases, incest, rape, 
    and murder as sympomatic of a healthy and vibrant culture?  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4477MSBCS::BRYDIEThe Mothership ConnectionWed Dec 23 1992 14:5212
    
  >> Unfortunately the cause-and-effect relationship between things like 
  >> institutionalized pornography and the errosion of America that you
  >> ridicule is oh-so-real, or do you choose to disregard the staggering
  >> increase of teenage pregnancy, teenage sexual diseases, incest, rape, 
  >> and murder as sympomatic of a healthy and vibrant culture?  
    
     Why do automatically assume that I was being facetious ? I firmly be-
     lieve that many of America's social ills can be tied directly to the SI 
     swimsuit issue and the appearances of naked pygmies on the pages of 
     National Geographic.
    
17.4478And now a word from your moderatorPATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollWed Dec 23 1992 14:543
    The "America in Decline" discussion really doesn't belong in this
    conference.  Feel free to continue the discussion in mail or in a more
    appropriate conference.
17.4479Princeton Tigers earn respect in ACC Chris' book.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 23 1992 14:5523
    re: .4475
    
    Generally I agree with you.  I respect Pete Carril and Princeton.  
    His strategy is absolutely perfect for what he's got to work with, and
    his coaching is obviously tremendous, given their discipline and
    outstanding execution.  You are also correct that they don't always run
    the shot clock down.  If the layup is available (invariably of the
    backdoor variety) they'll take it.  On the whole though, their offense
    is designed around patience and making the defense work, work, work,
    until they break down and Princeton gets what they want.  (A lay-up or
    open 3-pointer.)
    
    I believe my point that got this rathole going was simply that, while
    Princeton often *plays* Top 35 teams, they rarely win.  In fact, I'd be
    hard pressed to recall the last time they actually finished off one of
    their frequest upset bids.  The 'W' over NC State is overrated, because
    State is woeful this year and Princeton was home (or at least close to
    it).  I'd be curious on what the line was on this game, cause if the
    Wufpack was favored (after losing to the likes of NC-Wilmington) I'd be
    surprised.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4480note collision with Mac's .4478METSNY::francusMets in '93Wed Dec 23 1992 14:589
re:.4476 and others

This cause-and-effect thing has been argued for years. There has never been
any real proof of this.  There is as much proof that a more mobile country,
both parents working, and other stuff has done more to cause the problems
you mentioned than institutionalized pornography. Given a choice I'll take 
the First Amendment any day.

The Crazy Met
17.4483AXIS::ROBICHAUDCarolina BlewWed Dec 23 1992 15:065
    	Dallas is a truly pathetic NBA team that would beat Duke by
    40+ points.  The talent level in the NBA, much like the coaching
    acumen is light years ahead of the NCAA.
    
    				/Don
17.4484no contestHBAHBA::HAASA Log of EffortWed Dec 23 1992 15:0910
I ain't riskin the rath o' the moderators so I won't comment on the
relationship between Knorr's mother and pigmies. And I don't even care
if'n it was in National Geographic.

Let's put an end to this right now and get back to real ACC basketball
discussion. 

So when do you think Dean will choke? 

TTom
17.4485MSBCS::BRYDIEThe Mothership ConnectionWed Dec 23 1992 15:134
    
     re .4483
    
     Well said once again, my esteemed and erudite colleague.
17.4486Stop the rathole and answer my Dallas question!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 23 1992 15:2115
    I understand that they're pathetic.  What I axed was, WHY?  As to Duke
    vs. Dallas, we'll never know.  The pros have an obvious edge because
    their players are more physically mature - a big part of the
    development of an athlete.  However the dunk I saw Thomas Hill throw
    down last night, the overall play of Parks and Grant Hill, and the
    future NBA-star Bob Hurley running the show, leads me to think this Duke 
    team is pretty darned mature.  
    
    The only comparisons we cain draw on are the times when the collegiate
    olympic teams played various collections of NBA stars.  The collegians
    won almost every time.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.4487METSNY::francusMets in '93Wed Dec 23 1992 15:339
It is hard to draw any conclusion from College olympic teams playing
NBA All-stars. For the college players these were much more important 
games than for the pros. Also the olympic team was a team, All-stars just
a collection of players playing an exhibition.

I suspect that even the 1990-91 UNLV team would have been in last place
in the NBA.

The Crazy Met
17.4488AXIS::ROBICHAUDCarolina BlewWed Dec 23 1992 15:4617
17.4489Hurley < McCaffereyJURAN::MCKAYWed Dec 23 1992 16:039
    Hurley will NOT be a future NBA star........pullease.  I can not wait
    to see him ride the pine in the pro's...
    
    On an ACC note UNC vs. Duke should be right up there with the best
    games of the year.  When are they and do you know if they will be
    on TV?  I'm guessing at least 1 is on TV.
    
    Thanks
    Jimbo
17.4490Is there a better college hoops matchup than Duke vs. UNC? [no]RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 23 1992 16:0922
    re: Jimbo (BobHurley)
    
    Obviously you didn't hear or read the comments of Magic Johnson after
    going head-to-head with Hurley preparing for the Olympics.  See me for
    details.  
    
    Duke vs. UNC should be, as usual, a Battle of the Titans.  Last years
    Carolina 'W' over Duke at the Dean Dome was one of the best basketball
    games I've ever seen.  The intensity was unparalleled.  Eric Montross
    went out in the 1st half to get stitches and came back in the 2nd half
    to get a huge gash on his face.  Didn't back down an inch though, and
    UNC won when Laettner's end-of-game shot missed.  (He might've been
    fouled, but I pitty the ref who would've made *that* call!)
    
    This year:
    
    2/3 (Wednesday)	UNC @ Duke (ESPN, 9:00)
    3/11 (Sunday)	Duke @ UNC (ABC, 1:30)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.4491Yabbut, who had the lasted and mo'gratifyin'laugh?CTHQ::LEARYWhy George why? Because it's there!Wed Dec 23 1992 16:141
    
17.4492WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_MNo. 3 Looms over FENWAYWed Dec 23 1992 16:187
    
    
         
           Look for 2 Duke blowouts, NC is overated they got too many guys
    with bad crewcuts.
    
    Chappy
17.4493JURAN::MCKAYWed Dec 23 1992 16:2712
    I don't care what Magic said about Hurley, who knows more about
    NBA talent???? 8*)
    
    I think he's a good player that is playing in a gret environment and
    is being run up a flagpole for 1st team AA, 1st round NBA etc....
    My big problem was when McCaffrey left the team.  IMO he was the better
    player and I can't wait to see what the future says about this
    prediction.
    
    Don't get too wound up Chris it's still December!!!
    
    Jimbo
17.4494METSNY::francusMets in '93Wed Dec 23 1992 16:297
re:UNC vs. Duke

Folks in the Boston are will not be able to see the game on ABC.
Channel 5 in Boston has not carried the NCAA games for the last
few years.

The Crazy Met
17.4495Where do NBA players come from, anyway?NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Dec 23 1992 16:2911
    I wouldn't laugh off the Duke/Dallas comparison so quickly, at least
    not with *last year's* Duke squad.  Basketball is not like football
    with its 22 starting players.  NBA teams only 5-6 quality players 
    deep have had success in the past, and some college squads have taken
    the court with at least 5 future NBA players, including future NBA
    stars (Duke, UNLV, Houston, North Carolina).  The talent is there; the 
    college guys might just be a little green.  
    
    glenn
      
17.4496METSNY::francusMets in '93Wed Dec 23 1992 16:378
Sure some college teams do have a bunch of players that end up in the pros.
But even the worst NBA team would probably win 8,9, or 10 of 10 games
from a top college team. Remember the best from college end up in
                                      ^^^^
the NBA. The grind in the NBA makes players much tougher, and I suspect even
the best college team would be worn down by the 4th quarter.

The Crazy Met
17.4497CTHQ::MCCULLOUGHMelanie ate baby food!!!Wed Dec 23 1992 16:425
So did anyone notice that coach K was wearing a_Adidas shirt lasted night?  
Wonder if this is going to be a trend among coaches who get the big-buck shoe
company contracts.

=Bob=
17.4498Jon Barry ?CSTEAM::FARLEYMegabucks Winner WannabeeWed Dec 23 1992 16:461
    
17.4499PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollWed Dec 23 1992 18:153
17.4500JURAN::MCKAYTue Dec 29 1992 14:284
    Even though I am not a Laettner fan, he can play the game.  Will
    he be a star?  That will be a tough one especially in Minn.
    
    Jimbo
17.4501Tonight @ 1am will find ACC Chris in front of tube. :^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Dec 29 1992 15:1712
    Can there be a big college basketball game if Brent Mooseburger, Dick
    Vitale, or Billy Packer aren't courtside?  Maybe.  Tonight (actually
    tomorrow morning, Eastern Time) #6 Michigan battles #5 North Carolina
    in the Rainbow Classic out in Hawaii.  Absolute first rate matchup, yet
    it'll only be seen on the relatively obscure Prime network. 
    Fortunately for me, I git Sports South, which is picking up the
    telecast from Prime.
    
    Yippeee!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4502No Carolina should winHBAHBA::HAASA Log of EffortTue Dec 29 1992 15:2629
re: Laettner

The news outta MrTland is that the Wolves don't care all that much for
Christian. I mean how bad must he be if'n Chuck Person is complaining
about Laettner being selfish.

re:  Pete Pavia

>    RIP, Pete Pavia.  Only wish your curtain call hadn't been so spiteful.

What's spiteful is this reply in the R.I.P. note. I guess we have to add
this to the Tar Heel Excuse Bible: #n (what are we up to now?) Spiteful
Referee.

re: Michigan

This should be a good game. Right now you'd have to give the nod to No
Carolina. Michigan's apparent weaknesses seem to be the outside shot and
free throws. Both of these will be hard to overcome against the Heels. I
didn't see the games lasted night (or this morning) but I don't think
Nebraska is enough preparation for playing No Carolina. One should
remember that this is the time of year that Dean has his team playing
well. They don't want to peak at the end of the basketball season but
they usually play well around this time.

Now one chance Michigan has is to remind the Heels that it is a
tourney...

TTom
17.4503METSNY::francusMets in '93Tue Dec 29 1992 15:334
I am surprised ESPN didn't pick up this game. They have a Bowl game at 8PM,
so a 1AM start would be perfect for them.

The Crazy Met
17.4504Call it_a exhibition.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Dec 29 1992 15:3710
    re: .4503
    
    So you agree then, CrazyMet, that you CAN'T have a big game without
    Vitale, CBS, NBC, or ABC there.  
    
    Fair 'nuf, but I bet the boys from Michigan and Carolina will show
    none-the-less.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4505What's the line on UNC vs. Michigan?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Dec 29 1992 15:5324
    re: UNC vs. Michigan
    
    Nebraska was actually pretty good preparation for Carolina in the sense
    that they're a Top20 team.  UNC's 1st round 'W' was by no means guaranteed 
    over a solid SW Louisiana team.  (Heels won 80-59, BTW.)
    
    I like our chances in this one, but then again, I usually do.  This
    game is truly a toss-up - a win would be nice cause it would feature a
    Kansas vs. UNC matchup, which would be even more fun.  
    
    As to the specifics of the Michigan game, I dunno.  The Wolverines can
    play big, specially with Riley in there.  He could offset Montross,
    leaving Webber free to have a monster game against Lynch.  The inside
    game is usually Carolina's biggest strength, but not be in this case
    *UNLESS* depth becomes an issue.  (i.e. Foul trouble or fatigue.)  UNC
    is very deep - possibly this teams biggest strength.
    
    Carolina's potential achilles heel is the perimeter game.  Michigan's
    might be a tendency to get out of control.  There will be a ton of
    talent on the floor and there's the potential for a great game - a
    Final4 type matchup.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4506Madness to the logic??METSNY::francusMets in '93Tue Dec 29 1992 16:037
re: .4504

Huh?? Of course you can have a big game that none of those folks
are at or that the networks are not televising. Still it is surprising 
that ESPN didn't somehow pick this game up.

The Crazy Met
17.4507MSBCS::BRYDIENixon in '96!Tue Dec 29 1992 16:286
    
    re .4506
    
    Aw, so you agree that mustard goes better with turkey and swiss on
    rye than mayo does !!!
    
17.4508snickerMETSNY::francusMets in '93Tue Dec 29 1992 16:306
re:.4507

I really wouldn't know, but sure, absolutely, sounds like something
reasonable to agree with.

The Crazy Met
17.4509CUPMK::DEVLINThe bill is due for the last 12 years...Tue Dec 29 1992 16:317
Tommy -

I gotta go wif mayo.  Mustard - the best comes from Germany and France, and
them countries allow nudity and topless bathing and stuff, can't have that.
Mayo is more prudent and purient.

JD
17.4510Michigan by double-digitsCNTROL::CHILDSPete Pavia a true American HeroTue Dec 29 1992 16:5012
If Prime owns it, than the cost was probably prohibitive for ESPN to show it
that late at night and they may also be in a lot of the same markets as Prime.

Two of the worst coaches ever to win a big one against one another what a matchup.

Well if Chris favor UNC, you know I gotta favor Michigan. The only pray that
UNC has is that Michigan looses their cool. Michigan's bigger and quicker
just for starters, then you throw in the fact that it is a tournment outside
of the ACC so the collar will be tight for Dean. Montross against Webber??
hahaha...

mike
17.4511Michigan > UNC, but we_got Dean. :^)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Dec 29 1992 17:0115
    re: .4510
    
    That p-name has to be the worst of all-time.  Absolutely horrendous.
    I do agree with you on the UNC vs. Michigan game though, Mike.  You are
    correct to point out that Michigan is:
    
    1. bigger
    2. quicker
    3. Webber > Montross
    
    Now, if UNC wins, you'd have to say Dean pulled another rabbit out of
    his coaching hat.  Clearly.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4512CUPMK::DEVLINThe bill is due for the last 12 years...Tue Dec 29 1992 17:077
Looking at my calendar, it says "December".  Therefore, this should be an
easy win for The Husband of the Righteous Crusader (THRC) and the Tar Hells(TM).

If my calendar said "March", I'd have to say easy win for the Wolverines over
THRC and his gang.

JD
17.4513METSNY::francusMets in '93Tue Dec 29 1992 17:095
I believe that Prime's major market is on the West Coast. For them it
is a 10PM start which is certainly reasonable. I wonder of SC in Boston
will pick it up. Doesn't matter if they do - least for me, but I am curious.

The Crazy Met
17.4514CNTROL::CHILDSPete Pavia a true American HeroTue Dec 29 1992 17:2010
Hey all's Pete did was what any good blood honest American would do. Toss that
whinnyass craven panderer out. Dean for some reason thinks he's above the rules
of the game, Pavia showed him he wasn't and atleast for this American proved
that justice for all isn't a dead concept.

If Dean wins tonight it won't be because he pulled a rabbit it out his hat, it'll
be a gift wrapped present from the Michigan boys same as the one Freddy handed
him....

mike
17.4515DECWET::METZGERThis space being flea bombed..Tue Dec 29 1992 18:0116
If only our out going understood the concept that nobody is above the law...

OOpppsss..I guess that government officials ARE above the law...

off the soapbox now,

 Metz


What an ugly matchup..the overrated Michigan with their jive talking, unable
to back it up swagger and the ugly, abysmally coached gag meister snuffsters...

Even  with a 10 PM start timeout here I'll be sure and miss this one...


17.4516bullHBAHBA::HAASA Log of EffortTue Dec 29 1992 18:0414
Dean cried throughout the entire game and finally got the heave.

Knorr is doing the T pre-game. "They're bigger, quicker, their center is
better" so he can claim that Dean is the better coach. Industrial
strength garbage! It was pretty lame when T did it but at least it was
fun to read. This is just a crock.

Next, we're led that the concern is the perimeter game. Yeah, if'n Dean
won't let the shooters shoot the shot, there might be a problem. Donald
Williams can most definitely shoot the shot.

I repeat: No Carolina should win.

TTom
17.4517ACC Chris: Ever the diplomat trying to help settle_a dispute.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Dec 29 1992 18:2013
    re: .4516 (UNC should win)
    
    Then you and Mike Childs have_a honest disagreement.  He says
    Michigan's bigger, quicker, faster, etc., and that Montross is no match
    for Webber.  
    
    If you two (2) wanna settle your dispute here or in personal mail it
    makes no difference to me.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4518my Tar HeelsHBAHBA::HAASA Log of EffortTue Dec 29 1992 18:2132
Bringing this over from the Big East.

2 things should be pointed out about Not from the ACC Knorr.

The first is that he welched on the bet that he himself said he would be
a fool to pass on. He is unwilling to take the wager that NC State would
win a college hoops championship before Dean won another at No Carolina.
He admitted to having no expectations that Dean would ever win another
one. He was a little excited about the prospects that No Carolina might
win another one, but not with Dean.

Secondly, Mr Knorr has firmly cemented his basis for Tar Heel zealotry.
He has absolutely no connection with the UNC-Chapel Hill. He did not
attend this instituion. Further, his "commitment" to the program is
mostly oral (or maybe verbal) and he has not contributed a dime to this
program.

So while he professes his advocacy he neither expects ultimate success
nor is he willing to contribute toward this success. 

He has, in fact, the same degree of affiliation with NC State that he has
with Chapel Hill.

To come completely clean on the issue of my support for UNC-Chapel Hill I
am deeply concerned about the return on the investment I get from that
institution, especially in terms of the Men's College Basketball program.
For all the money I've given them, they've won a grand total of 2 lousy
titles which is the same as NC State. And it's not like UNC-Chapel Hill
doesn't know about championships. Just look at some of the other men's
and women's programs. 

TTom
17.4519METSNY::francusMets in '93Tue Dec 29 1992 18:537
re: .4518

So you're saying that 

ACC Chris is the equivalent of a Notre Dame football "subway" fan  ??

The Crazy Met
17.4520oh-fer-twoHBAHBA::HAASA Log of EffortTue Dec 29 1992 19:1111
It actually goes beyond that.

First of all, he isn't a_ACC fan. He has a fixated zealotry for No
Carolina hoops and that's about it. Actually, I haven't seen his opinion
of No Carolina once Dean leaves.  He has no interest in football, and
given that the coach at Chapel Hill is Mack Brown, that's understandable.

I guess he'd tell you that it's his "adopted" conference but this is
being appealed...

TTom
17.4521CTHQ::LEARYWhy George why? Because it's there!Tue Dec 29 1992 19:3918
    Jest remember.
    
    ND "subway alums" are a_integral and revered part of the tradition
    and mystique. Plus, since they unfortunately don't make it to Mecca
    often, we "alums" appreciate the fact that they contribute mightily
    to the ND coffers in ways suich as buying mucho ND paraphenalia
    = dinero to which we is most grateful.
    
    And if troof be known, they are probably the more vocal and rabid
    ND fan, more so than those who actually attended the University.
    So truly thy is a blessed addition.
    
    What this actually has to do wif ACC Chris and his professed zeal
    for UNC I leave to TTom and other "ACC actual alums". Mebbe at the
    least he should be "Subway UNC Chris"??
    
    MikeL
    
17.4522METSNY::francusMets in '93Tue Dec 29 1992 19:404
Mike L, are you going to the Cotton Bowl??


The Crazy Met
17.4523CTHQ::LEARYWhy George why? Because it's there!Tue Dec 29 1992 19:5011
    No cain do TCM unfortunately.
    Also, don't want to jeopardize my newly-recorded winning streak (1).
    
    I'll be watchin the festivities wif all my ND paraphenalia on, waving
    my ND pennant, sipping Guinesses from ma ND stein and eatin' Irish
    potato chips outta ma football-shaped ND plate, invoking all the
    past Irish heroics from Montana, Gatewood, Theisman, Golic, etc.
    I've dismissed Tom Brown from my mind fer this one. 8^)
    
    MikeL
     
17.4524CNTROL::CHILDSPete Pavia a true American HeroWed Dec 30 1992 10:344
Michigan 79  UNC 78...

that's all I know. maybe Subway Chris can fill in the details.....

17.4525FDCV06::KINGThe Jessinator, Not just a child!!!!!Wed Dec 30 1992 11:054
    UNC, with out the ACC refs Lose at the buzzer 79- 78..
    A most Excellent lose!!!!

    REK
17.4526AXIS::ROBICHAUDCarolina BlewWed Dec 30 1992 11:103
17.4527ACC Chris watch - hour 2METSNY::francusMets in '93Wed Dec 30 1992 12:184
Game was not a 1AM start since ESPN gave a 53-50 score at around 
midnight.

The Crazy Met
17.4528same ol' same ol'HBAHBA::HAASA Log of EffortWed Dec 30 1992 12:5114
Chalk this one up to a plethora of Bible Excuses:

	o the other team was hot
	o the other team was lucky
	o the Tar Heels woulda won if they woulda got the rebound

But, what really happened:

	o Jalen Rose convinced Dean that this was the NCAA tourney
	o Fred Brown was outta town

Very disappointed in the Heels. This is not what I paid for.

TTom
17.4529ACC Chris watch hour 3METSNY::francusMets in '93Wed Dec 30 1992 13:062
The Crazy Met
17.4530ACC Chris watch hour 4METSNY::francusMets in '93Wed Dec 30 1992 14:044
The Crazy Met


17.4531ACC Chris watch hour 5METSNY::francusMets in '93Wed Dec 30 1992 15:202
The Crazy Met
17.4532Summary of UNC-Michigan finish. Quite a game ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 30 1992 15:4140
    Aw shadup Met.  I_be working the noon_to_9 watch at the ole Customer
    Support Center this week, otherwise I'd_a rung in much earlier.
    
    UNC vs. Michigan lasted night was a game that matched whatever minimal
    hype had been generated.  Absolute thriller.  Unfortunatly for me the
    bad guys won, but that doesn't subtract from a great game.
    
    The contest was close the whole way - Michigan went up by as many as 8 in
    the first half; Carolina had a 5-point advantage in the 2nd half.  But
    this was a matchup destined to go to the wire.  Over the last 5 minutes
    the game was at least within 3 points, usually 1.
    
    Michigan ran outa timeouts in the last minute (the miserly Dean had
    saved all_a his, as usual) and, with the ball and the shot clock
    winding down, had the ball slapped out to midcourt.  One_a the Michigan
    SuperSoph's grabbed the ball, heaved it toward the hoop, and the
    impressive Chris (love that name) Webber jammed it thru.  Wolves up by
    1.  (Reminded up of the famous Whittenburg NC State play against Houston
    in the '83 finals, 'sept this one was even more of a desperation play. 
    Webber can make a bad play look good though.  Best player I've seen
    this year.  When he grabbed a pass a foot inside the 3-point line,
    calmly steped back outside the arc and nailed a sweet 'J', wail, I was
    duly impressed.  Should be illegal for a guy with his physical tools.)
    
    Anyway Carolina took timeout, then ran the 1-4 offense with Donald 
    Williams at the point and scored a bucket with around :12 seconds to 
    go.  Carolina up 1.
    
    Michigan rushed the ball upcort, taking it into the corner where 
    a_offbalance shot was thrown up and bounced slightly long (weak-side).
    UNC's Brian Reese had okay defensive position, but Jalen Rose
    (a_impressive talent in his own right) tipped the ball up toward the 
    rim as the buzzer sounded.  It boinged around the cylinder before 
    finally settling thru the net.  Dean ran out onto the court and shook 
    hands with all the Michigan players.  Very sporting.
    
    Agonizing finish to a terrific game.  If ya missed it, your loss.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4533excuse accepted (one in .4532)METSNY::francusMets in '93Wed Dec 30 1992 15:475
Would have loved to see the game, but NESN was showing it. NESN is
only worth getting if you care about the Red Sox or Bruins. Did
you make a tape??

The Crazy Met
17.4534CNTROL::CHILDSLiz Smith wants Madonna's bodyWed Dec 30 1992 16:0211
 I guess you haven't see Calbert Chaney play yet this year, Chris...
 No knock on Webber but I just think Calbert's the best player I've
 seen this year. 

 mike

 ps. Have't seen Mashburn yet but I'll venture a guess that he's right up
 there with the two afore mentioned players...\

 How'd Montross do?
17.4535METSNY::francusMets in '93Wed Dec 30 1992 16:103
Hey Mike C, watcha doin' playin' "lets top my last p-name"

The Crazy Met
17.4536MontrossRHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 30 1992 16:2520
    > How'd Montross do?
    
    Eric had a big game.  Solid effort.  Thinks he had around 18 points and
    11 boards.
    
    Jack McCloskey (former Detroit GM, now Minnesota Timberwolves GM) was
    waxing eloquent on the progress Eric has made.  Said (and this is
    almost a direct quote) that, if you'd seen him a freshman, you'd have
    thought that he's got a long way to go.  Went on to say he was
    impressed with what the North Carolina coaches had done with him. 
    Concluded by stating that Eric will be a factor in the league for a
    long time.
    
    All of which points out that Montross' collegiate choice was perfect. 
    He wanted a place where he'd go and learn a trade that could
    potentially earn him millions.  Dean's got him right on track.  Had he
    chosen Michigan or Indiana we might be looking at another Uwe Blab.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4537Overated and undercoached....WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_MNo. 3 Looms over FENWAYWed Dec 30 1992 17:507
    
    
         Well they finally played a real team and Snuffy's funny hair cut
    boys lost. Now maybe they'll be rated where they should be say....
    18th.
    
    Chappy
17.4538METSNY::francusMets in '93Wed Dec 30 1992 17:554
18th, you gotta be kidding. I mean Princeton isn't ranked why should
NC be ranked??? :-)

The Crazy Met
17.4539CNTROL::CHILDSLiz Smith wants Madonna's bodyWed Dec 30 1992 17:5815
Well TCM, I was truthfully lost for a new p-name till I read Liz's columun
about Madonna's new movie. It wasn't the first time I've read her gushings
about the Divawannabe so I just put two and two together so to speak...
:^)

Cmon now Chris Uwe ve Blab probably didn't even play ball till he was 17..
Montross was the number 1 parade kid wasn't he? He supposedly had all the
tools coming in. Sure Dean has taught him some valuable fundamentals. First
and foremost of course is you got learn how to loose to appreciate winning.

Now if you want to talk about improvement see Matt Novar of IU. Frigin kid
was T's favorite whipping boy and now he's probably the most improved player
at the college level.

mike
17.4540BTW, SW Louisiana (who UNC beat by 21) beat #17 Nebraska ...RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 30 1992 18:0415
    re: Chappy
    
    A 1-point loss (on a buzzer-beater tip-in no less) to a team ranked one 
    (1) slot below them hardly constitutes grounds for a sizeable drop.  
    If anything, Michigan and UNC should simply swap slots.  (i.e. Michigan 
    #5; UNC #6)
    
    Oh and, for the record, Carolina has yet to play any Gougetown-style
    cupcakes.  Strictly NCAA Division 1 material, virtually all of whom
    made either the NIT or NCAA tourney last year.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4541CNTROL::CHILDSLiz Smith wants Madonna's bodyWed Dec 30 1992 18:1011
Butler may not be 1AA but they're certainly not in UNC's class. UNC has also
played a few other stiffs so don't get all high and mighty my friend. Sure
Georgetown's schedule stinks but that's a given and JT always ends up paying
for it.

Great quote from Vitale he was picking on somebody playing a cupcake schedule
(big ten team I think) he said "cmon now he should call up Red Klotz of the
Washington Generals for a game. Problem is the line is probably busy cause
Thompson is on it.".......

mike
17.4542Vitales a Dunderhead....WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_MNo. 3 Looms over FENWAYWed Dec 30 1992 18:2012
    
    
           Vitale is always giving JT ribbing about his schedule except
    when he's around him than it's all kiss up.
    
    YeaH Chris they have played a torrid Schedule Butler Isn't that in
    Arkansas???? How many losses do you predict for NC this year?
    
        I predict at least 7. Plus the one in the Big dance, but thats a
    given.
    
    Chappy
17.4543Carolina's schedule speaks for itself.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Dec 30 1992 19:0820
    Butler went 21-10 last year and made its 3rd straight trip to the NIT.
    
    All other Carolina opponents this year include:
    
    Old Dominion (Has beaten Alabama this year.  Made NCAA's last year.)
    South Carolina (SEC team - strictly Division 1A material.  Played 'em
    		    in Charlotte.)
    Texas (Tom Pender's team has made the NCAA's 5-straight years and is
    	   favored to win the SWC.  Played in Charlotte.)
    @Virginia Tech (Lean times, but strictly Division 1 - Metro Conference.)
    Houston (25-6 last year. Won SWC tourney and made NCAA's.)
    @Butler (21-10 last year.  Made NIT's last 3 years.)
    @Ohio State (Perennial power, played on Buckeyes home floor.)
    SW Louisiana (Made NCAA's last year. Beat Top-20 Nebraska this year.)
    Michigan ('Nuf said.)
    
    HTH,
    
    
    
17.4544some good, some badHBAHBA::HAASA Log of EffortThu Dec 31 1992 13:2525
re: who's good thised year

Chaney, Mashburn, Webber, and Bobby Hurley seem to be locks for All-Am.
I've seen Anfernee Hardaway who's looked good but his team is struggling.

re: too good to pass on

>    All of which points out that Montross' collegiate choice was perfect. 
>    He wanted a place where he'd go and learn a trade that could
>    potentially earn him millions.  ...

This speaks volumes about No Carolina and the system. It's also Dean's
current theme in recruiting. I mean who cares about winning any games
much less championships, let's just officially declare this a minor
league for the NBA. It's no wonder that Dean chokes the big games because
he, and the players, aren't focused on here and now. They all are waiting
for the big defered gratification in the NBA. 

It's hard to figure out how some people who claim to be college hoop fans
can zealously root for this program that emphasizes the millions of
dollars in the NBA over college game.

What a waste.

TTom
17.4545CNTROL::CHILDSLiz Smith wants Madonna's bodyThu Dec 31 1992 13:424
my darkhorse for that 5th AA spot, if his back injury isn't a season long
thing is Jason Kidd of Calif. He's definately gifted and can do it ALL!!!
Of course if they don't pick by posistions than Grant Hill will probably
make it....
17.4546impressive earlyHBAHBA::HAASA Log of EffortThu Dec 31 1992 13:5620
Jason didn't play lasted night and California got blown out by Cornell,
74-54.

I'd be happy to see Grant Hill get the nod for AA but I don't really
expect it. He's too quiet and makes it look too easy. In reality he's
a very good player but Hurley will get most of the ink on this team.

Other's that I've seen that look pretty good are both guards for Kansas -
Walters and Adonis. Funderburke has been playing well but isn't well
liked. Moten from Syracuse looks good. Terry Dehere will get some votes
especially if Seton Hall stays in the Top 10.

In the rookie class, I've been impressed by Harringon from Georgetown as
well as Kidd. Lasted night, Roderick Rhodes look good as Kentucky beat St
John's.

But hey, the season is young and I'm sure there are others we could add
to these lists.

TTom
17.4547Q: Why doesn't the media axe if GrantHill will go hardship?RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Dec 31 1992 14:0413
    > What a waste.
    
    There's no mutual exclusion between prepping his players for the NBA
    and winning games.  Last I checked Dean was less than 20 W's away from
    becoming the 2nd all-time-winningest coach in the college game and,
    based on his health (Knock On Wood) and the Stackhouse/McInnis signing,
    you'd have to say Rupp's record is within reach.
    
    The argument that Dean doesn't win is pure rubbish, but what's worse is
    your contention that the only wins that count are championships.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4548back to youHBAHBA::HAASA Log of EffortThu Dec 31 1992 14:1920
While there's not mutual exclusion, it's very apparent what the emphasis
is in Chapel Hill: make major dollars in the NBA *AFTER* you've played in
college.

Show me where I've said anything about wins not counting. What I've said
all along is that Dean chokes big games. That's a matter of record that
is recorded for posterity somewhere within this conference. Further Dean
wastes more talent than most other teams have because of these chokes and
his emphasis on how much money his players will make in the NBA. Dean's
record through the seasons only support this.

And the question has always begged: how can the team that has the best
recruiting, the best program and the best coach only win one NCAA
champhionship? The hallmark of great programs is that they win *IT*.

Hail, you don't even have the courage of your convictions. You even welch
outta of a bet on my asssetion that Dean won't win another NCAA tourney.
You're the one on record that Dean can't win The Big Game.

TTom
17.4549Duke wins, barelyHBAHBA::HAASA Log of EffortTue Jan 05 1993 13:227
Duke escaped Oklahoma lasted night, winning 88-84 in OT.

Duke held a hefty lead through much of the game but let the Sooners get
back into it at the end. Duke had a lot of trouble making free throws
during the game and in OT Oklahoma couldn't buy a basket. 

TTom
17.4550Tomorrow Night, ESPN: UNC @ NC State!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Jan 06 1993 19:5022
    Well my TechHaid brother is finally coming through with some decent
    Georgia Tech tix, so I'll be ringside for Duke @ GaTech this Sunday. 
    Obviously I'd prefer the Carolina game, but it's a much tougher ticket
    and, given the way my bro has disapointed me in the past, wail, beggers
    can't be choosers.
    
    I wasn't at all optimistic about Tech's chances given their lackluster
    play of late, but after turning in a solid route of Maryland (without
    Martice Moore who had the flu; James Forrest almost didn't play for the
    same reason) they may have an outside shot.  Tech is in the Top10 now,
    so it should be fun.  Like I told my bro, nobody'll be rootin' for the
    Jackets more than me.  :^)
    
    Interesting matchup tonight as Florida State visits undefeated
    Virginia.  (Cain anyone justify FSU remaining in the Top20 with *4*
    losses?!  I can't ...)  I like the Cavs in this one, although it should
    be a good game.  I'd imagine Charlie Ward might see some minutes in
    this one, although it's debatable how much of an impact he can be
    expected to have.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4551PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollWed Jan 06 1993 19:553
    Dean's biggest worshipper can't get a ticket????  That's an outrage.  I
    think a complaint should be lodged with the NC Alumni Council, the ACC,
    the NCAA, and the Supreme Court!!!!
17.4552CUPMK::DEVLINRAY What now? I'm Going to Disneyworld!Wed Jan 06 1993 19:578
    Chris -
    
    I can't understand FSU being rated as high as they were.  If they
    lose tonight, they should drop out of sight (until tourney time).
    
    How much will Ward help  the 'noles?
    
    10K
17.4553CUPMK::DEVLINRAY What now? I'm Going to Disneyworld!Thu Jan 07 1993 11:527
Duke beat Clemson lasted night 110-67.

Virginia beat Florida State 80-76.   It was Virginia's 13th straight win,
the 3rd longest behind UNLV (29) and Duke (23).    This should drop
FSU out of the top 25.


17.4554CUPMK::DEVLINRAY What now? I'm Going to Disneyworld!Thu Jan 07 1993 11:5612
IN the Legal Arena:

James Madison Guard Kent Kuluko, floored by an elbow to the face from
Seton Hall's Terry Dehere in a game last week, said he's considering suinmg
Dehere and Dehere's coach, P.J. Carlisimo.  "Why not give it a shot
and see what happens?" said Culuko.  Cliff Culuko, the player's father,
told the Daily News-Record of Harrisonburg, Va., he has retained
Hackensack, N.J. attorney Malcolm Blum.  BLum said he and the Culukos
are awaiting medical reports before deciding whether to pursue legal
action.  The family is concerned that Culuko, who needed three
stiches to his upper lip, will be permanently scarred.  Cliff Culuko
said his son was contacted about a modeling job last summer.
17.4555I hope he gets anudde ebbow nexted gameCTHQ::LEARYWhy George why? Because it's there!Thu Jan 07 1993 12:259
    Don't get me started.
    
    Po' Kukla. 
    Hey, I got hit in the chin wif a racquetball racket a few years
    back. Can I sue the company that makes the racquet, my opponent
    AND the club. Whooppe, where's my Rolodex?
    
    MikeL
    
17.4556CTHQ::MCCULLOUGHLindsey is THREE years old!!!Thu Jan 07 1993 12:493
hey Mikey - 

Don't worry 'bout the modeling career...
17.4557Weren't talking 'bout the face, Bobby 8^)CTHQ::LEARYWhy George why? Because it's there!Thu Jan 07 1993 13:041
    
17.4558CA Supreme Court RulingPATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollThu Jan 07 1993 13:2513
    That court case will be interesting.  The California Supreme Court
    recently ruled on two separate cases involving personal injuries during
    recreational activity.  The Court ruled that participants must accept
    "a reasonable implied assumption of risk."  It said that by
    participating in the recreational activity involved, the plaintiffs
    implicitly agreed that only conduct that is intentionally harmful or
    otherwise so reckless as to be totally outside the range of the
    ordinary activities involved in the sport or activity (as opposed to
    mere negligence or carelessness) could result in liability.

    The Court felt that if they ruled otherwise people would be disinclined
    toward, and therefore deprived of, participation in the excitement and
    challenge of sporting and recreational activity.
17.4559Let's clean this up right now. :^(RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jan 07 1993 13:4910
    Mr. Moderator, could you kindly remove your note and all the rest that
    relate to this non-ACC lawsuit?  Feel free to move 'em to the "College 
    Basketball" note, but I think you'll agree this discussion is completely 
    outside the realm of the Atlantic Coast Conference which, last I checked, 
    did not have either James Madison or Seton Hall as a member.
    
    Thanks and regards,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4560PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollThu Jan 07 1993 13:522
    Only if you promise to never again mention Dean Smith outside of this
    topic.
17.4561Taking Mr.Mod to task is mainly work. :^|RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jan 07 1993 13:5915
    re: .4560
    
    > Only if you promise to never again mention Dean Smith outside of this
    > topic.
    
    I only mention Dean as it relates to the topic at hand.  I promise to
    maintain that proper noting behavior.
    
    NOW GIT YOUR NON-ACC NOTES OUTA HERE, PRONTO!
    
    Huff.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
17.4562SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Thu Jan 07 1993 14:0011
    
    re: Tech/Duke
    
    	If it's on TV, I'll be watching too.  Glad to see my much-hyped
    and native of Springfield Mass., Travis Best, doing well for the
    Jackets this year.  Saw in the paper yesterday that he is the 25th
    leading scorer in the nation in Div. I.  Glad to see that he is making
    progress.  Let's hope he can break even his matchup with Hurley.
    
    bill..g.
    
17.4563"Bob Hurley chokes in big games." - Bob Hunt (HAW HAW!!!)RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jan 07 1993 14:3113
    re: Travis
    
    The worrisome part for GaTech this year might be the scoring burden
    they've placed on Best.  Normally you don't require your PG to score so
    much.  The position is too demanding and not many folks at the
    collegiate level can run the team, call the plays, distribute the ball,
    *and* lead the team in scoring.  Add in the fact that, as usual,
    Cremins refuses to use his bench, and you're looking at a team that
    will probably be up-and-down this year, possibly tailing off come
    tourney time.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4564Tech Grad's Tainted ViewISLNDS::REEVEThu Jan 07 1993 15:5125
    Cremins doesn't use his bench because he usually doesn't have one. This
    year is an exception, as the Jackets have eight fairly solid players.
    They are also better balanced inside and outside, quicker, and stronger
    defensively. Their only loss is to Kentucky and Tech was in it to the
    wire. 
    
    I disagree that they are placing too much scoring burden on Best. With
    Mackey and Forrest playing well, Tech has more of an inside threat than
    they've had in the past and that's opened up more outside shots for
    Best. Travis also appears much more confident in his role this year
    with Jon Barry out of the way.
    
    It's too early to tell how good Tech is. A few more ACC games will be a
    better indicator, but the shorthanded win at Maryland was a good start.
    Look for them to give Duke a hard push Sunday, and if the Devils play
    as flat as they did against Oklahoma, Tech could notch a W in the
    Thriller Dome.
    
    Drew Barry looks better as a freshman than his bro did as a junior and
    Martice Moore has looked good in flashes. With Forrest and Best
    apparently improving significantly and Mackey finally accepting a
    leadership role, Tech should match last year's success (sweet 16), and
    maybe move up a notch. Fun team to watch.
    
    GT Chris
17.4565Other than the Maryland win, Tech hasn't shown much yet.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jan 07 1993 16:2416
    > Cremins doesn't use his bench because he usually doesn't have one.
    
    Wrong, wrong, wrong.  Cremins doesn't have a bench cause he doesn't use
    it.  A coach has to *USE* his bench if he wants to have one.  History
    is loaded with examples of Bobby having decent players on his bench but
    sticking with his same ole 6 guys (maybe 7 if he's feeling generous) to
    accumulate 99% of the meaningful minutes.
    
    Don't get me wrong, Bobby's had success with his approach and it's
    helped out on the recruiting trail.  He targets the top-notch stud that
    he wants a promises him a starting spot and all the playing time he can
    handle, and delivers on the promise.  If that's the way he wants to
    play the game, fine, just don't start whining about having no bench.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
17.4566SA1794::GUSICJReferees whistle while they work..Thu Jan 07 1993 17:0318
    
    
    	Hey, all I want to see is steady improvement from Travis each year.
    If he can continue to improve, he'll be one of the best point guards
    in the country his senior year.  His shooting is still spotty from 
    what I've seen, but I do agree that he has to carry a big load which
    could either make him into a superman or a goat over time.
    
    	I just want to see the kid succeed since I used to ref his games
    when he was a freshman in High School and someday I might be able to
    tell my kids about it.  Plus, I always root for the local kid.  Travis
    is a decent kid.  Well, at least he was a decent kid in HS.  Didn't
    have a huge ego and was a pleasure to referee and to watch.  I just
    hope he stays in school for the 4 years and keeps his head on straight.
    
    
    bill..g.