Conference ulysse::rdb_vms_competition

      1. Advantages/Disatvantages of ORACLE running on IBM's under MVS vs.
         VSE. Anybody knowes something about THAT? Which of the two OS is
      	"better" supported by ORACLE (versioning, runtime-bugs ...)?

            Neither.  Both are buggy.  Oracle doesn't have a trained 
            support staff.  ORACLE is slower than both DB2 and SQL/DS.
            Neither provides a robust recovery environment (at least 
            compared to DB2 and SQL/DS).  
    
      2. Customers planned constelation: one IBM(AS400?) running SAP, one VAX 
      	 (4000) running ALLIN1.
      	 Needed (Wanted): ONE Database for all commercial Data.
         Possibel(?) Solutions : 
      	 a. ORACLE on IBM, ORACLE on VAX, dataexchange via ORACLEs SQL*NET.
            SAP should use ORACLE-DB on IBM. This is the customer suggested 
	    solution.
     	 b. Rdb on VAX. But How to exchange Data between IBM/SAP and VAX/Rdb?
		      	
     	 Of course we'd like the 2.b. solution, but need advicve about its
         possibillity. Any ideas how to get the data from VAX/Rdb to IBM/SAP
     	 without introducing ORACLE in the account? Is IBM's DXT/D1 usable?

	 Who knows about the SAP-part of the problem?

             SAP?  Is that the Manufacturing Financial application package?
    
             I'd like to get a little more definitive information.  Does
             your customer currently have a system in place?  Is SAP a 
             definite given?  If so, what environment is it running in?
               Which operating system?  (MVS, DOS/VSE, or OS/400)
               Which database?  (DB2, IMS, SQL/DS, DL/I, SQL/400, SAP's own)
               Which TP monitor?  (CICS, IMS/DC, SAP's own)
             This information is essential before I can effectively answer 
             this question.
             
             You may have noticed that I didn't list ORACLE as a likely 
             database environment.  I can't believe that SAP would waste
             their time re-writing their extremely successful IBM-based
             application system to make it run on an IBM-based ORACLE 
             system.  ORACLE holds less then .1% of the IBM database 
             market.  The last estimate I heard, there are over 6,000 
             DB2 sites, over 10,000 SQL/DS sites, and less that 100 
             IBM-based ORACLE sites.  So therefore, claiming to have the
             same database on all systems doesn't apply.
    
             Now, let's discuss each possible environment:
    
             AS/400 with OS/400 and SQL/400 --  I wasn't aware that SAP 
             ran on the AS/400.  I didn't think it did.  In any case, 
             ORACLE doesn't run on the AS/400, so they can't provide 
             connectivity. 
    
             First, let's talk physical connectivity.  We don't offer a
             gateway between a VAX and an AS/400.  The only gateway that 
             I know of is available from Strategic Systems, Inc (SSI). 
             Perhaps someone in TaN knows of other third party gateways.
             Data can be transferred using the SSI gateway, but don't 
             expect transparent access.  We don't have any handy dandy
             tools to make access easy, although SSI might provide some.
    
             MVS with DB2 with CICS  --  Here we can provide direct access 
             to DB2 from All-in-1 using VIDA for DB2.  DXT/D1 can be used 
             to upload tables from the VAX to DB2, although it cannot be 
             used to update data in place in the existing SAP DB2 tables.  
             If you want VAX applications to be able to update a DB2 table 
             in place, special applications need to be written using one of 
             our DECnet/SNA programming interfaces to perform the updates.
    
             MVS with DB2 with IMS/DC or 
             MVS with IMS/DB or VSAM  --  Here we can upload and download 
             data using DTF, but we no longer offer direct access from
             All-in-1.  (Note:  RdbAccess for RMS can be used with DTF to
             provide direct access to VSAM files, but DTF cannot directly
             access VSAM which are "owned" by CICS.  I assume that SAP 
             runs in CICS.  If my assumption is wrong, then perhaps we 
             can provide direct read-only access to SAP VSAM files.)
    
             DOS/VSE with SQL/DS or DL/I  --  Here I can't offer you much 
             of a solution -- and in this situation, Oracle definitely
             tells a better story.  At the moment, we don't offer a nice
             interoperability solution for DOS/VSE.  Oracle's SQL*Connect
             can access SQL/DS.  All we can offer are the DECnet/SNA 
             programming interfaces and customized programming.
    
    
    Regards,
    Anne Thomas
    Interoperability Product Manager

    re.1
    I believe you will find SAP will be runnning on Oracle.  Contact the
    Marketing Business Manager for SAP, Al Burroughs at 264-7825 or
    NUTMEG::Burroughs.
    
    Mark
    

    I just checked with Al Burroughs:
    
    SAP uses ORACLE only for their UNIX implementation.  
    
    SAP on IBM systems does not run on ORACLE, so ORACLE would not have 
    a "same database on all systems" advantage.
    
    Anne

	Anne,

	Thank you very much for this detailed answer. 

	Sorry for responding so late, but we are little under water here.
	As I didn't expect an answer anymore, I read .1.2.3 only two days
	ago...But just in time for my first visit to the in .0 described 
	customer.

	Fortunally, the customers IBM  turnd out to be a 9121, running MVS. 
	He is still wondering which DB to use on it, but I hope 
	we'll convince him to go for DB2. So he can intergrate SAP with DB2
	AND - as he IS going to use Rdb on the VAX - he'll have acess to it 
      	via VIDA.
	
	I checked with SAP Germany: for MVS they ARE using CICS, and they 
	DO support DB2 (if so desired). No support for ORACLE on MVS.


	Thanks, 
	Regards, Andreas