Conference yukon::christian

    "Nancy," my grandmother spoke in her southern drawl, "the only problem
    you have is that you are full of love with no where to put it."  I was
    only 8 years old when she spoke those words to me.
    
    You could say she was very insightful, but as the years passed in my
    life, it was apparent they were prophetic.  I'm 39 years old now, and
    you could say that I have spent my entire life looking for someplace to
    put this love inside of me.
    
    You see when I was 2 years old, my parents divorced.  It was then that
    I went to live my southern grandmother in the state of Kentucky.  I
    learned the good way of life; mash potatoes, fried chicken, green
    beans, biscuits and gravy, grits, peach cobbler, and of course southern
    hospitality.   But I also learned that people could be both bad and
    good and worse yet, it could be your parent that was this way.
    
    How can you trust a God that gives you parents that don't really care
    for you?  My earliest memory in life is of my father molesting me. 
    Though I saw my mother about 30 days out of a year, I really didn't get
    to know her until I was 8 years old.  And then she truly had no time
    for me, I was mostly in her way.  I mean, how can you trust a God that
    gives you a mother that doesn't really love you??  
    
    Soon I was in a foster home, not because of my parents, but because I
    struck my mother.  She had me declared incorrigible at the age of 13
    years and 6 days old.  Imagine that!  And my horriscope and had said on
    my birthday that I was due for a domestic change.  Now that was a god I
    could trust.  I was impressed by that horoscope, star stuff.
    
    I arrive at the foster home with suitcase packed.  Upon removing my
    clothing which in 1972 consisted of; hot pants, tank tops, hip hugging
    bell bottoms, and a bikini.  Within the first week my foster parents
    had burned all of my clothes and given me dresses and culottes to wear. 
    Really, God how could I trust you after that?!
    
    But then something miraculous happened.  As a gift to me [for having
    burned my clothes], my foster parents gave me a book to read entitled,
    "Run Baby Run" by Nicky Cruz.  In this book when Nicky asked Jesus to
    be his Savior, I knelt on my bunk bed and with tears flowing down my
    face, all alone, I received Jesus as my Savior.  
    
    Remember why I was put in the foster home?  Well, all that hate and
    anger inside of me which caused me to hate my mother, turned
    instantaneously into pure Love.  The love that my grandmother had seen
    in me couldn't even compare to this Love.  The first thing I did was
    witness to my mother, telling her how the Lord had changed my life and
    how I really wanted her to know Jesus too.  I wept begging her to be
    saved because although I had spent this life without my mother, I
    really wanted to be with her for all eternity.  But, she wasn't ready
    for salvation.
    
    Undaunted, I began witnessing to my father.  I bought him a Bible and
    asked him to come to the same church that my foster parents and I
    attended.  Much to my surprise he began attending.
    
    It had been 3 years since I had been in the foster home.  In those 3
    years, I had become the keeper of the home.  I took care of the
    children [there were 10 of us], the laundry, the cooking and the house
    cleaning.  I wanted so much for my foster parents to love me.  I would
    have done anything for this love.  And then one morning when I was
    trying to rest, my foster parents 2 natural sons were having a pillow
    fight at 5AM in the morning.  And this pillow fight was now banging up
    against my bedroom wall.  I was upset and requested the boys to stop. 
    Soon they started up again and after about 3 times of asking, I became
    angry with them.  I picked up the 8 year old, putting his face close to
    my face and then I grinded out the words, "Stop or Else!"
    
    Later that day, my foster mother walked up to me, grabbed me by my
    shirt pulled me into her face and told me that I had better never do
    that to her son again.  I realized at that moment, that no matter how
    many loads of laundry I had done, how many meals I cooked or diapers I
    had changed for this woman, she would never really love me.  I cannot
    tell you how this realization effected me.  I looked her back in the
    face and asked for her to call my social worker that I didn't want to
    live there anymore.
    
    It was then that I began to doubt my trust in God again.  How could He
    be trusted?  I had now lost another family.  But I was still somewhat
    undaunted.
    
    Well, since no-one knew that my father had been molesting from the age
    2 years until 13, and since my mother said she didn't want me back, I
    went to live with my father.  At first, I really thought things would be
    different and that my dad would get saved, but instead things just
    changed in this perverted abuse.
    
    Now instead of my father molesting me, he would have parties while I
    was at church and when I arrived home what I would find was naked men
    and women engaged in acts uspeakable.  I would walk through these
    people, carrying my Bible clutched tight to my breast, walk back to my
    bedroom and nail my bedroom door shut.  Because now men were grabbing
    at me as I walked by and it frightened me.  How could I trust God
    anymore?  Where was He now?
    
    So at the age of 16, I began to struggle in my Christian walk.  Once a
    young woman who played the guitar and sung the specials in her church,
    I became withdrawn and spiritually wounded.  The next 2 years I went in
    and out of church, drawn the Spirit, but doubting that God really loved
    *me*.
    
    
    

    I was 18 years old now.  Church had almost become a faded memory.  But
    my belief in Christ was so real no matter where I turned there He was. 
    I was swimming at St. Petersburg beach when I felt this frisbee land
    perfect atop my head and still spinning.  I looked around and sure
    enough this good looking young guy was walking towards me apologizing.
    
    His name was Michael, he was 22 years old and later confessed he landed
    that spaceship atop my head on purpose.  It was Michael that became my
    savior from living with my father.  He became my first real love.  I
    packed my suitcase and moved in with him just 6 months after we met. 
    Michael was now more real to me than God.
    
    After 1 year of living together, he decided to move to California for
    the goldrush of technological breakthroughs, the "Silicon Valley."  I
    followed him just 3 months after he moved, driving 3000 miles alone
    from Florida to California.
    
    Upon my surprise, not only had Michael found gold in technology, but he
    also found columbian gold, the smoking kind.  His drug use became a
    financial struggle and I could no longer tolerate him.  I had only been
    here 4 months and I was asking him to leave.  Michael moved out on a
    Thursday and I met Rafael the following Saturday.
    
    Rafael was a handsome, muscle built Mexican man who's accent was rather
    seductive.  We met through an acquaintance where I worked.  Upon our
    first meeting, he asked me for my phone number and a date.  I accepted.
    
    After dating for 7 months, he moved in with me.  After 3 years of
    living together, we married and I gave birth to our first son, Matthew
    in 1982.  And it was my pregnancy that drew me back to Christ.
    
    I could never forget what the Lord did to me in 1972, when I knelt on
    that bunk bed and asked Him to be my Savior.  I never doubted the Truth
    in that, though I doubted that God truly cared about someone as
    insignificant as me personally.
    
    Knowing that I was carrying in my womb, a soul that was eternal,
    allowed the Holy Spirit to convict me of my backslidden state.
    So, with Rafael's permission, I began looking for a church to attend
    with my baby.

    I found a church to attend and a Christian daycare provider for my son
    for when I returned to work.  The church I was attending also had a
    Christian school and it wasn't long before I truly believed this was
    God's place for my family.
    
    It was an amazing thing that happened next.  I was making my journey,
    very slowly back to God and Rafael began drinking more and more.  It
    wasn't long before the abuse began both verbally and physically.  I was
    so full of anger and rage over the abandonment I felt.  What I didn't
    realize then, but do now is that I had never truly worked through my
    doubts about being able to trust God.  I had basically felt abandoned
    emotionally since I was 2 years old.
    
    Why couldn't anybody love me?  What was wrong with me?  I must have
    been born bad.  Oh I don't mean a sinner like everyone, else, but
    special bad.  The kind of bad that makes you unloveable by your parents
    and then by your husband.  Why God, why?  Why did you make me this way?
    
    Here I was surrounded by people, and yet so very alone with no-one
    wanting the love inside of me that I desperately needed to give.  So, I
    began nagging my husband in what I thought was a kind way.  I would
    tell him that I had needs and wanted him to understand me.  I explained
    that I felt abandoned now 4 years later with 2 sons.  His drinking and
    work kept him out of the house almost 24 hours a day now.  I was alone
    almost all of the time.  And remember, no family here and because of
    Rafael's drinking, no friends, I was alienated, ashamed to bring people
    into my home.  And if I had a friend, Rafael always disapproved and
    would demand I NOT communicate with them.
    
    I went to church and I saw these families that sat together, prayed
    together, and here I was broken again, unloveable, undesirable and very
    alone.  How can I trust you God?  I want to so very much, how can I
    trust you?  It doesn't matter whether I live for you, or I live for
    myself, I'm still unloveable.
    
    Another 4 years of sheer emotional torture had passed.   Rafael and I
    rarely spoke to each other and now had separate sleeping rooms.  There
    were times now I feared him and what he could do when really drunk. 
    Sometimes I slept on the floor in between my son's beds because I knew
    I would be safe in there.
    
    I was not innocent during this time either, I had become a verbal
    nightmare for him.  Basically begging him to stop drinking.  At one
    point during those 4 years, I got pregnant again.  Rafael begged me to
    get an abortion, but I refused.  He said it was too much pressure on
    him to have another child.  I was firm and believed that I would be
    okay if he chose to leave and told him so.  At this time, we had
    planned a trip to Mexico to see his mother, I was 5 months pregnant.
    
    The day before our trip was planned to go to Mexico, I began bleeding
    and they did an emergency ultrasound to check the viability of the
    fetus.  They could not find a heartbeat and the fetus did not measure
    to be 5 months in gestation.  My doctor recommended a D&C to prohibit
    infection convinced that fetus was not living.
    
    Rafael's daughter from a previous marriage was at the house as was a
    co-worker/friend who was house sitting for us, was with me when Rafael
    came home drunk.  I had to explain to him that I was miscarrying and
    would have to go into the hospital the next day [our flight day] for
    the D&C.  He looked at me with such disgust and told me I was trying to
    ruin his trip to Mexico.  He accused me of making up the whole thing,
    the pregnancy and the miscarriage.  His daughter shrunk back into a
    bedroom, my friend tried to intervene and the only thing I could do was
    weep at such a deep level that I believe my insides were shutting down,
    I just wanted to die.  How can I trust you God?  Where are you, now? 
    Can't you see what I'm going through?  Why, God, Why?
    
    

    Rafael went to Mexico with his daughter, I stayed behind with my friend
    who took me to the hospital as I went through the "procedure."  I
    remember thanking God for not allowing me to have another child.
    
    I hung on 2 more years after that incident.  I think it only
    appropriate at this time to insert the document I wrote during that
    first year of divorce:
    

                                  Epitaph

                        HERE LIES THE BROKEN DREAMS
                      OF A FAMILY ONCE UNITED IN LOVE



I was out of fellowship with the Lord when I met and married my unsaved 
husband on July 31, 1982.  I was pregnant and believed that it was the right 
thing to do.  

As all couples, we had our struggles. The beginning years in spite of the 
foundation on which our marriage was laid, were very rewarding.  There was a 
bond between us, a real sense of sharing and warmth.  However, the sobering 
thought that I was carrying a soul that will either spend eternity in heaven 
or in hell was drawing me back to God, especially when I felt the movement 
of my unborn child.

Then, as I began to draw nearer to God, my husband's alcoholism became 
steadily worse.  My Christian walk was less then stable as I struggled with 
sin, swaying back and forth between drinking with my husband, and then utter 
despair at having let God down.  My son was 4 years old before I finally 
surrendered my heart over to the Lord.  Another son was born as well.  By 
now, the relationship with my husband had deteriorated to the point that not 
a day passed without unkind words.  

It was during the pregnancy of my second son, that he became physically 
abusive.  Then the day came when after many threats, he told me he wanted a 
divorce.  In my heart, I wanted it too!  My children were nervous wrecks, my 
job was suffering, my friends were waning and I had gained close to 50 
pounds.  I believed his announcement of wanting the divorce released me from 
my obligation as his wife.  I filed for divorce on March 19, 1991.

Even then I knew my husband was a man that needed the Lord.  The memory of 
the closeness we once had haunted my dreams.  I still loved him in spite of 
the abuse in our marriage.  You see I was only reaping what I had sowed. To 
me, this was the result of my sin, falling away from the Lord, being 
immoral, and marrying out of the will of God that had finally caught up with 
me.

On January 14, 1992, with tears flowing down our faces, we looked at each 
other with love still effervescent in our eyes as the judge declared our 
divorce final.  Even with all of the hurt and pain that came into that love, 
it still had power to keep us connected.  That love still shared the 
unconditional gift of our children, of an uninhibited physical relationship, 
of many holidays and special times.  Yet, it was *over* with the words 
spoken, "So, ordered".  

I don't know how to describe the emotions at the very hour, moment, you are 
about to hear a judge declare, "So ordered".  It was finally final, a 
heartbreaking divorce dividing mother and father and children.  

The pain was real, the rejection was real, the anger was real and the 
feeling of powerlessness was real.  The dream of one spouse, family and home 
no longer existed.  Thoughts of loneliness, financial struggles, parental 
challenges and shame that I failed in my walk with God, once again all 
flashed before me.  These feelings of loss were worse then if he had died.  
At least with death, there are no options, but with God there were options 
that could have saved this marriage.  

Powerlessness is the epitomy of emotional torture.  Yet, it is within that 
same feeling of powerlessness therein lies the answer.  By admitting that we 
are powerless over anything, or another person is exactly where God want us 
to be.  It is then, that God can do His greatest work within a person. 

Also, as a Christian, I have had to deal with the emotions of failure, 
shame, and guilt in this divorce. God promises no condemnation to them that 
know Him (John 3:17).  He wants us to find victory in all that we do, even 
our failures, for through the pain and conviction of sin, God can continue 
to mold us into vessels of unconditional love. God revealed to me that 
divorce is not the end of my Christian life, it is the beginning of 
acceptance of God's unconditional love by allowing Him to mend my broken 
heart.  

God's power became vague when I was caught up in the whirlpool of sin.  
Whether it be the sin of someone else or my own sin.  For example, when I 
pled with my husband to "understand" what HIS drinking was doing to our 
family, I believed "my wisdom" should motivate him to change.  Inevitably, 
God could not work in his life, because I was too busy working in his life.  
And God could not work in my life because I was too preoccupied with trying 
to get my husband to "just see" his sin, that I was not looking at my own 
sin.  I had bound God's hands and intervention with all of my earthly 
wisdom.  Anything that I could have, would have and currently could do, 
would only be temporary, a bandaid, but God's in the business of 
transforming lives for eternity.

Nancy
    

    He was out of the house, I was now alone in a new a way and it felt
    much better!  "Whew!", I thought, "no more oppression."  I began
    immediately to struggle with other things though; my sexuality, my
    feelings of a vast void in my soul; looking for a replacement of my
    husband; single parenting with a new twist of *full* responsibility and
    much more.
    
    At the same time, I immediately went to an assistant pastor in my
    church and offered myself for any ministry he saw fit for me to do. 
    Setting up chairs, taking down chairs, sweeping floors, monitoring
    bathrooms, anything.  He looked me straight in the eye and said, "I
    have a Sunday School class for you!"
    
    I really was taken aback by his expression of confidence that I could
    teach a Sunday School Class.  Oh, I knew he knew that I had gone to a
    Christian school while I had been in the foster home, but I had not
    been a faithful church goer in these now 7 years I had attended our
    church.  But in faith, I took the class.  
    
    I was given the most wonderful class from our bus ministries.  My girls
    were anywhere from ages 8 to 15 and came from project neighborhoods,
    East San Jose and East Palo Alto.  As each week I prepared for my
    lesson, my deep sense of personal integrity, rooted me into a study of
    the Word of God.  I began to see my childhood passing before my eyes
    with every girl who walked into my Sunday School class.  
    
    The deep love I felt for these girls was unbelievable.  Finally, there
    was some place to put all this love inside of me.  And the beautiful
    part was these girls soaked it up like a dry sponge consumes water.  
    
    God did something to me in those classes.  I honestly believed I
    probably learned more than the girls did.  It was my oasis from all the
    deeper senses of personal loss.
    
    At this time, I met a man on this forum who was single and seemed to
    share many of the same struggles, likes and dislikes.  This man
    supposedly fell in love with me, though we never met and I believed
    that I was falling in love with him.  We planned to meet.
    
    He flew out here to California as he lived in another state.  When
    unboarded the plane, I was a bit surprised by his appearance because my
    mind had conjured up a totally different image and likewise for him.
    
    We had shared so much together through written communications and phone
    calls, literally thousands of hours were spent in communicating.  It
    was almost addicting.  The feeling of being loved he offered me was
    like nothing I'd ever experienced before in my life.  
    
    I truly believed God had brought us together and that finally there was
    going to be a recipient of this love inside of me from a mate.  We
    talked marriage and family.  I remember feeling something inside when I
    thought of having his child.  A feeling I had never felt before.
    
    While he was here, we became intimate.  Immediately, we both knew God
    was not pleased, but for some reason he was more upset than I about it. 
    He withdrew from me in a slow, but painful way.  I tried not to cling,
    but I was so afraid to lose love again.
    
    He left and returned for a second trip, which was horrible.  When he
    returned he phoned me and told me that he knew I wasn't the right one
    for him because I wasn't attractive enough to him.
    
    Why God why?  Why did you make me with this face?  Why am I so ugly? Is
    that the bad that I am?  Is that why nobody can love me?
    
    
    
    

    I began participating in the Christian notes forum in 1992, mostly as
    read only.  This meant that I read, but did not write into this medium. 
    However, once I began writing I found depth of fellowship that my
    church had never been able to offer.  At church I was not encouraged to
    share my testimony of salvation with any real honesty.  Biblical
    questions that I had were left unanswered because there really wasn't
    any question and answer period, not even in Sunday School.
    
    So, I began to pour my heart out here.  In the process, my uninhibited
    sharing of my life, my heart, my questions, my fears, my victories, I
    became the target of online romance.  I cannot even begin to number the
    men who were Christian both married and unmarried who would write me
    and tell me how attractive they found me through my writings.  I do not
    say this to boast but to reveal how electronic forums such as this have
    a negative side.  This caused me to set up some real parameters about
    offline communications with members of the opposite sex.  
    
    Digital is a pioneer in the internet industry and our intranet has
    existed for many years via the notes conferences.  I learned that even
    in a work environment where the technology is managed, the technology
    can be used for not-so-holy purposes.
    
    The parameters that I set up are simple ones.  I don't minister to
    anyone of the opposite sex in any compacity.  I refer them to Christian
    men with whom I believe are trustworthy and capable to provide counsel.
    
    I typically make myself accountable to someone else if I do find I am
    in conversation with someone of the opposite sex.  I never divulge
    confidences, but I will let one of my friends know I am communication
    and ask for prayer support.  This is very rare these days.  I just
    simply don't encourage men to communicate with me offline.
    It is my opinion that electronic romances are 99% unhealthy and often
    bring shame to our testimony of Christ.
    
    I also learned that flirting is dangerous even in an open forum, for
    that opens the doors to some men to think they can take that one step
    further.  
    
    Be prudent in your communications and make it a habit to reflect on
    them through the Savior's eyes.
    
    
    
    
    
    

    In March 1993, Rafael took his last drink of alcohol and began a
    journey towards sobriety.  He had asked me if we could reconcile almost
    immediately upon having made this decision.  I couldn't say yes.  I
    just didn't trust that he would remain sober.  He'd stopped drinking
    like this before and always returned to it.
    
    Several times over the next 2 years, he mentioned our being back
    together and each time I said, no.  I used many excuses, he wasn't
    saved, I wasn't sure he was sober for good, he still didn't like me
    going to church, he was controlling and secretive.  But at the same
    time, I noticed that he became a stronger father to our boys.  
    
    I watched him begin to take responsibility in ways that he had never
    before attempted; picking the children up after school and helping with
    school projects, learning to cook, and taking the boys to sports
    practices.  
    
    He would also say he loved me on one side of his mouth, while degrading
    me to our children on the other.  Divorce does something to a family
    that is wicked and that is typically one or both parents "bad mouth"
    the other parent to the children.  This is the worse part of divorce,
    because inevitably even the best of parents will get trapped by a
    child's question as to "why" are we divorced.  
    
    In late 1994, Rafael had requested a reconciliation once again and I
    agreed.  However, his terms were I had to stop teaching Sunday School. 
    I went to my pastor and asked him if he thought I should consider
    reconciliation and he said yes and that I should stop teaching based on
    Rafael's request.  
    
    The day I said goodbye to those girls was like ripping my heart out. 
    Each one cried and said they understood and hugged me like I've never
    been hugged before [until Paul Weiss - now that's a hug].  I felt like
    I was turning my newborn baby over to another mother as I introduced
    their new teacher.
    
    Rafael's commitment was to go to church with us every week.  He did
    this for 13 weeks and then stopped and refused to go back.  He began
    bickering with me over small items and soon in front of the children he
    was tearing me down, contradicting my discipline, and often times just
    unkind to me.  
    
    I was confused, he was sober, I had given up my Sunday School class for
    this reconciliation and all I received was the same verbal and
    emotional abuse as before.  And now his anger at me came forth in full
    fortitude.  It was my fault he had no savings and it was my fault that
    he drank and it was my fault that his first 2 children didn't care for
    him, and it was my fault, etc., etc.    And furthermore, he was not
    going to pay me the full child support any longer. He immediately
    reduced his child support by $200 per month.
    
    Our children are now 8 and 12 years old and going to the Christian
    school for which he wholeheartedly supported,  and Matthew was growing
    leaps and bounds which created an increased need for clothing and cost.  
    He said that he had to think of himself for a change.
    
    Okay, God now I'm really confused.  I took my pastor's counsel, I gave
    up my sunday school class, I treated this guy like the kind of his
    family and in return I get another rejection,  and furthermore I'm to
    blame for all his problems.  I'm now really convinced God doesn't care
    about me.  Oh I struggle with it... back and forth like picking a
    daisy, He loves me, He loves me not, He loves me, He loves me not and
    once again my daisy ends on NOT!
    
    
    
    
    

Nancy,

Is your last note posted here where things now stand with Rafael and your 
feelings about God not caring for you?

Leslie

    No.  I will continue as I have the cycles, but thanks for asking.

    I know part of the reason it is hard to trust God at times (for me,
    anyway) is that as impatient humans, we want help NOW, and when we
    don't receive that help quickly, it tends to trigger doubts.  The truth is
    that God doesn't care about temporary assistance that doesn't help to
    fix the problems at hand.  He wants us to be prepared for what He has
    planned for us, and if this means that it takes years to "fix" us, then
    that's what it takes (and I do not find this particular thought
    appealing at all, if the truth be known). 
    
    I think our focus is inward all too often.  I know that for me it is
    very hard to push some issues aside and focus on God, and just TRUST
    that He not only knows more about my problems than I do, but that He
    has a plan to "fix" me.  I look too much to the past, rather than how
    much God has taught me.  Any view of hopelessness (and believe me, I've
    my share of this emotion... enough to go around, if anyone wants some 
    8^) ) is in reality a lack of faith in God in some way.  I rationalize 
    this as "maybe God isn't willing to help" or "maybe it isn't His will to 
    help", but I think that this is wrong.  If I were to take this
    attitude, then I'd have nothing to inspire me to trust God.  It is in His 
    will to help each and every one of us, He just tends to go about it
    differently than what we expect (and we don't always realize that
    some things that we veiw as bad, are actually necessary for out
    progress).
    
    I think worry and fear (of whatever kind) is directly the result of a
    lack of trust in God in some part of our lives.  If this is not dealt
    with, then it is unlikely that we will grow as Christians as God wishes
    us to.  In fact, it can be a major cause to backsliding.  After all,
    how many times in the Bible does it tell us to "live by faith"?  And
    isn't the entire message of Christ "trust in me"?  Do we really do
    this all the time? 
    
    I'm finding new meaning to the words "he who saves his life will lose
    it, and he who loses his life for My sake shall save it", and new ways
    to apply it to my life.  It's not just a commitment to Jesus.  It is
    more than simply saying "I believe" and acting outwardly on this
    belief.  It is also a mental state that compels us to give up all those
    things we desire the most, allowing our desires to be replaced with
    what God desires of us.  
    
    It's comforting to know that you can't out-give God, though.  Those who
    really give God all they are, will be the ones who will experience most
    the blessing of God on their life.  After all, even if we, who are
    evil, can give good gifts to our children, how much more can God give
    to His children?
    
    
    Sorry for rambling.  Back to you, Nancy. 
    
    
    -steve

    Hi Nancy,
    
    I hadn't intended to write in the conference. I'm only here for
    a little while, and this is a group account through which, on
    a break or lunch, I can occasionally refresh my mind, and heart
    and spirit with a scriptural lesson (lots of good, solid, sound
    lessons in this notesfile).
    
    But your entry touched me so deeply. If you are looking for 
    reassurances that God loves you, you will certainly get them here, 
    or anywhere among His peole, for that matter.  He will let you know, 
    through *them* in many ways.  Sometimes, when we've been buffetted too
    much, we have trouble regaining our balance, and we need those
    reassurances to steady us.
    
    It is my prayer that you will come to know, truly KNOW, deep
    in your heart, that God loves you no matter what is going on
    around you, and that the only assurance you will need is that
    which you do not see with your physical eyes, nor hear with your
    physical ears...
    
    There is no greater proof than what He did on the cross for us
    before we ever even cared who He is...before we ever loved Him.
    
    God does not have to do "good things" for us, or order our lives
    according to our ideas of good, to prove He loves us.  His love
    is far deeper and wider (and wiser) than our limited understanding of
    love.
    
    Too often it is easy to blame God for events in our lives that
    are either the result of our exercise of free will (or others'
    exercise of their free will which impacts us), or seek to avoid
    the pain in this world by expecting Him to intervene, to lighten the
    weight of the cross the cross we bear -- remember, He said take up 
    your cross *and follow Me*.  He did not promise to carry that cross 
    for us. In this world, we will have tribulation, but IN HIM, we not only
    can overcome the world, but HAVE overcome.  We don't always see that,
    because we're still living here in the shadows, and can see only
    dimly...
    
    Count your blessings, dear Sis, list them on a piece of paper...and
    then ask yourself from whence they came. 
    
    Just the fact that you are asking that question proves that God
    loves you for, without His love, you wouldn't even wonder, or care.
    
    But, you knew all that! :^)
    
    So, what am I doing here?  
    
    In His love,
    Irena
    
    P.S. If you want to reply to me offline, you can send mail to me
    at Exchange. User name is C-Pulksteni.
    

    IRENA!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    HUGS AND (Brotherly) KISSES!!!!!
    
    hazza :']

    The next 7 months were extremely difficult.  We never verbally said
    that we had given up on our relationship, but we both began to behave
    that way.  I dated a man from work during this time, which did not lead
    to anything significant.  And it was for a very short period of time.
    
    Then in around June of 1995, I received a letter from Rafael's attorney
    requesting a financial statement as he was taking me to court to
    further reduce his child support.  I tossed it in the garbage.
    
    I received another letter in December of 1995.  I was so upset. 
    Couldn't he see that every penny he gave me went towards his
    children???  How could he see taking money away from them as being a
    good thing to do.  And once again, he told me that he needed to think
    about himself.  You see he was in his 50's now and felt that saving for
    retirement was what he needed more than to pay child support.  I
    understood his thoughts, but they just didn't make sense to me.  I
    couldn't seem to agree with this justification.  The kids and I were
    not taking vacations together, or theme park trips, we were living
    simply day by day with basic needs being met.  I struggled financially
    to make ends meet as it was.
    
    Emotionally this whole process just pushed me over the edge.  In just a
    few short months, I did something I had never done before, "I shook my
    fist at God and said, "Who are you?  I know you saved me, but just who
    are you?  I don't know you! I am so angry at you God!  Why, Why, Why?"
    
    "Read Job," this small voice spoke to me.
    
    "RRRRRRRRRRrright!  Read Job?  I've read Job, I don't want to be him, I
    don't want to read that again!"
    
    The next morning I went into work and and from the "Our Daily Bread"
    promise box, I pulled my scripture reading.  As the verse came to view,
    I could not contain the intense feeling of God being there, the verse
    was;  
    
    "Acquaint NOW thyself with Him and be at peace, for thereby good shall
    come unto thee".  Job 22:21
    
    Tears just flowed and in my heart I said, "Okay God, I guess you really
    are there.  I'll read Job."
    
    
    
    
    

    Now is a proper time to insert a note I wrote in our previous version
    of the conference:
    
         <<< RGNET::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN_V7.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< The CHRISTIAN Notesfile >-
================================================================================
Note 858.61                    once saved, always?                      61 of 70
JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze"    97 lines   8-FEB-1996 14:16
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Jeff,
    
    I appreciate the chance to offer an answer to your question.  
    
    Most folks who read this conference know me by now.  They know my
    testimony of salvation and they know the struggles in relationships
    with my ex-husband and family members. [Anyone who's reading this and
    doesn't know my testimony can send me mail offline and I'll send it to
    you.  It's the Lord's so I offer it for free] :-) :-)
    
    I've recently come under another trial which rendered me to my knees. 
    The below text is dialogue I had with another person and I hope it will
    clarify some of where the Lord has brought me over the last few months.
    I am so encouraged because the Lord has answered my prayer and desire on the
    below to know him more fully.  Excitingly so as a matter of fact
    because just after I wrote the below I begged the Lord to hold me in
    his arms as a little girl, that I needed to know the size of his ears,
    shape of hands and the beating of his heart and that all I thought I
    knew about him would be taken from me and to reveal himself to me so
    that I could truly understand who He is to me... the personal me not
    the "world" me. :-)
    
    *****************************************
    
I've sure messed that up, haven't I?  I'm allowing anger to be poured 
out towards God.  And the truth is, I don't know how to not be angry at 
Him.  I suppose I could tritely say what my head knows i.e., faith&trust 
but it is that very element of my Christianity that has been weakened by 
the trials of my life.  When I rededicated my life to God I didn't 
realize until about 2 years ago that this part of why I backslid has 
never been fully dealt with.  I swept it under the carpet pretending it 
didn't exist.  I wanted to BEHAVE as though I had faith, believing that 
I could convince myself through being faithful in my actions.  I think 
for the most part when we don't "feel" something, we should still have 
the character to "behave" appropriately and thus, that is what I "chose" 
to do with my head.  I had knowledge, but no wisdom... and rightfully 
stating it now, I have knowledge, but no wisdom.

Through this act of choosing God even though my insides were still full 
of doubt, I actually convinced myself for a period of time that the 
doubt was gone.  Not doubt in God, not doubt in my salvation, but doubt 
that he cared about me personally.  That my life is merely the reaping 
of my father's sin and his father's sin, etc., and that this individual 
accountability stuff was really for the birds.  But I looked at your 
life Mark [Metcalfe] and I saw godliness in your heritage and I see the godliness 
in your life today in marriage with family.  Part of my head said, well 
if I can get my "behavior" in order, then maybe my kids have a chance at 
reaping something better than what I am reaping from my heritage.

In other words a straining process of sinful behavior.  If I could 
strain enough sin out of my life, it could empower my children to have 
even less sinful heritage, and then their children would have less and 
on down the line.  

But lying dorman inside me is and I must now acknowledge that question 
and resentment of my childhood.  I am ANGRY about it.  And I forgave my 
father and mother, but I've held within me God accountable for every 
horrible act performed towards me.

How do I reconcile this with God?  Reading Job's account causes me so 
much shame and guilt that I find it painful to read.  I'm finding that 
this adversity in my life is revealing the weak character I truly have.  
And at the same time, is this weakness also created by God?  After all 
would it be there, if I had not had such rejection and invalidation in 
my life.

Mark, I always thought that I had my grandmother's love and this was 
what became my anchor, that she loved me.  And before her death, this 
past December, she had rejected me and even disowned me as her 
grandchild.  Why?  Because my aunts told her that I accused my father of 
molesting me.  [Another story - which I think you know already].

I LOST the only person on this earth from my memories that I had 
connected with and felt love from and before she died I felt her 
despisement.

No MORE guilt... No MORE shame... not the kind that takes a heart and 
renders it useless to everyone around them.

I've blown it.  I can never say that no matter what 
I've gone through in life, I kept my faith and integrity.  It's not 
completely gone, for even in my writing this I am begging God to help me 
turn on the lights.  I liken this spiritual journey to one being 
enclosed in a castle with no windows and no lights except for one candle 
that is half spent and running around bumping into the walls trying to 
hurry up and find more candles to light that room before that one candle 
is extinguished.

Mark, what I've written is also not meant to discourage, but to be real 
and honest and face that which will only seek to destroy me over and 
over again.  These destructive patterns must be dealt with and I 
desperately need to know exactly who is God to me.  Not just my ticket 
out of hell, but the one who places one set of footprints in the sand.

Nancy
    
    
    

    It wasn't long before the Lord just began to speak to me in so many new
    ways.  Beliefs that I had gathered in my faith baggage were being
    honed, and some were being completely eradicated.  Mostly how I viewed
    myself before God.
    
    But the most powerful thing I learned, in which words do not give it
    justice and the depths of which it reached into my soul, but here it
    is I learned "He is God and I am NOT."
    
    Some would say big deal, I know that.  Well I knew it my entire
    Christian walk intellectually, but I felt it this time as Truth not
    just knowledge.  Immediately, I bowed my head in tears so ashamed
    begging God to forgive me for being so prideful.  I understood
    reverence for the very first time.
    
    I also found that my ability to actually know God's voice became
    stronger, I could hear Him in a new way.  And I began to check in my
    Spirit over every decision I had to make.  And then he revealed to me
    that because of my lack of proper reverence and submission to Him, I
    had not been a proper wife.  
    
    The below is from my journal:
    
16-APR-1996 18:25
                                 -< Decision >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On April 16, 1996, I stepped out on faith so thin that a raindrop could 
sever the connection.  It was as though something else controlled my 
thoughts and words as I uttered the words, "yes" to Rafael.  

Yesterday we had an appointment with the court mediator to determine if we 
had come to a decision regarding the custody agreement and child support 
reduction.  Since we did not have an agreement, she said the next step was 
to go into the Early Resolution Agreement program.  This will now entail our 
children being interviewed and someone else making the decision for us.  The 
court will not decide by itself, it relies heavily on the recommendation by 
this group of people.  It is also a 2-4 month waiting period for this group 
to begin the process of mediation.

As we were walking out to our cars, I just broke down in tears and he asked 
me what was up.  I told him the thought of our kids being put through this 
court process was more than I could handle.  I then told him that I wondered 
why he wasn't willing to put the effort into developing a relationship with 
me that was based on our hearts versus our financial spreadsheets.  I 
explained that I understood that as a man it was important and noble to want 
security of provision for the family, but that as a woman, I need to know 
that the most intimate needs of my heart are important.  That for me, my 
emotional security is more important than my financial.  Money comes and 
goes, but hearts remain with us for eternity.

I touched his chest where his heart is and I told him that this was 
important to me.  And that I knew his heart well, but not well enough to 
meet its most intimate needs for he has changed considerably over the last 
2.5 years.  

I explained that I desired to know his heart and to see if there is a 
possibility that our hearts could once again become one... in the right way, 
built on a foundation more solid than a financial spreadsheet.

I then asked him if he truly desired to be with me.  And with crocodile 
tears in his eyes, he responded, "Very much".  And then he told me something 
very strange to me, he said that if he were to remarry me that it would make 
some of his friends and family very angry with him.  But that he truly loved 
me enough to put that aside.  As far as his friends, those whom are his 
friends will be happy for him, those who are mad aren't friends.  The only 
family that I know of that would be mad would be his daughter and son.  This 
hurts a lot.  But he didn't tell me that to hurt me, he told me that because 
he wanted me to know how much he loves me.

Some points of our conversation:

1.  That for 17 years nary a week has gone by without some form of 
negativity from him to me.  I told him no human being can live like that.  

His response was that he was offering his opinion not trying to be negative 
and condemening.  But that he understood my "sensitivity."

2.  That I would like for us to go through a book together. The book is by 
Larry Crabb entitled, "The Marriage Builder".  We agreed to read a chapter 
together and discuss its contents until we go through the entire book.

3.  He asked me to be more in control of my emotions.  He says that I am 
explosive and that this creates within him a sense of fear with me.  I 
agreed to try and not be reactive. [this ties in to #1]


If you go back and read my writings regarding divorce [especially my own], 
you will find that I have spouted a great wisdom regarding submission.  Now 
its time that I put that wisdom into practice.  And I feel completely at 
peace with this.  

Last evening our revival message by Dr. Jack Hyles was regarding seat 4A.  
On a flight from San Jose to Chicago, he was seated in first class next to a 
man in seat 4b.  This man wouldn't even move to allow him into his own seat.  
He finally had to crawl over the man.  After having gotten there he tried to 
have a conversation with this man, who never acknowledge the attempt or ever 
looked in his direction.  

So Dr. Hyles pushed the call button for the stewardess and asked her to find 
him another seat anywhere on the airplane, because he couldn't sit 4 hours 
next to a "crab".  The stewardess came back told him there wasn't any 
available seat for him.  At this point, Dr. Hyles began explaining to her 
again that he couldn't sit in this seat, would someone maybe switch with 
him.

The stewardess then said to Dr Hyles, "Mr. Hyles, this is your assigned seat 
and it seems to me that you only have two choices.  One is to complain and 
be unhappy the entire trip about this assigned seat, or to accept this is 
your seat and be happy for it."

So, I ask you, how are you accepting God's assigned seat for you?  Are you 
squirming around in it, or are you making the best of it?

The application of this truth far reaches my current ability to communicate 
at this time, but it confirmed within me that I MUST offer to Rafael a 
husband's due.   I promised him that should he stop drinking, I would be his 
wife, I cannot break my promise to him.  I have to fulfill this.  And its my 
seat 4A... even if it means spending my life sitting next to a "crab"! :-)

I know this defies human wisdom...but it's time to truly be a woman of 
virtue and put my walk where my talk has been.

Nancy
    
    

    Submission is a dirty word for many women.  Because many men
    historically have used the Bible to abuse their wives by pulling out
    the Ephesians text of "Wives submit to your husband" and demanding
    obedience.  While they typically fall short of loving their wives as
    Christ loved the church and gave His life for it.
    
    What God has been teaching this past year [just passed 1 year
    anniversary of being re-committed to Rafael], is how to live by faith
    and not sight.  He revealed so deeply how my reason for not submitting
    to Rafael was because I was trusting in Rafael and not God to offer my
    reward.  
    
    Honestly, several times over this past year, I've come close to
    throwing in the towel and something much bigger than me stops me from
    doing so.  And the Lord just keeps impressing upon me that I Peter is
    true and I must have faith.
    
    Approximately 2 years ago, Rafael prayed a prayer of repentence and
    faith with the boys and I.  People always ask me if Rafael is saved and
    if we are equally yoked.  It's really funny, but I can't honestly
    answer that question.  I can only offer the fact stated in the first
    sentence of this paragraph.
    
    Well, on April 15th, I had counseled with my pastor, who supported my
    offer of reconciliation to Rafael.  He also had counseled me to not let
    the church become a source of conflict.  He knew that Rafael didn't
    want us coming to church on Sundays because he felt that was our family
    day.  Sunday night and Wednesday were typically okay, but not all the
    time.
    
    I have to admit that when my Pastor told me that, I thought he didn't
    want me in the church anymore.  I was really confused.  I mean faithful
    church service was a given.  But I followed his advice with a twist. 
    :-)  I asked Rafael if we could have a Bible study [brief devotional],
    in lieu of any church service we miss.  He agreed.
    
    For 52 weeks Rafael heard the Word of God.  And when I led the Bible
    study, there were times I preached.   Glory of all Glorys, the Spirit
    has been so strong during our devotions that many times I felt the Lord
    just take over my mouth and pour forth His Truth in confrontational
    ways to all of our lives.  
    
    At first Rafael was a bit impatient about the devotions, but even on
    our very first one he offered a verbal prayer along with each of us. 
    Typically I always end the devotion with each person having the
    opportunity to pray out loud round the table.
    
    Now one year later Rafael leads us in prayer.  He often jumps in takes
    over the application of the Scripture we read.  The most profound thing
    that he learned this year was that Satan is the prince and the power of
    this earth and that there were false religions.
    
    I have not touched upon the many times in this past year in which by
    all man's earthly wisdoms I should have walked away from this reunion a
    second time.  Rafael has asked me to live with him 3 times and 3 times
    I've said marriage or not at all.  My God doesn't want me to make the
    same mistakes again.  Each time I can see him begin to respect me just
    a little more.
    
    Folks, God is real and He loves you.  One other point of learning for
    me this past year was realizing that every trial I've endured and ever
    will endure is because He wants me to *know* Him more.  My father
    molesting me, my mother abandoning me, my failure in marriage, and
    having been told I wasn't enough by someone, have all been to help come
    to the loving arms of my Father.  
    
    My identity is in Him, through Him and by Him and my physical
    appearance is NOT at what He looks.  I am beautiful and worthy of love
    because He put the highest price on my soul, the death, burial and
    resurrection of His son, Jesus.
    
    In His love,
    Nancy
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Irena!!!
    
    Way cool to see you here.  I'm sorry I hadn't seen your name for some
    reason today.  I only saw C-Pulksteni and then asked Harry and others
    if it was you!
    
    I pray you get to read the last posted here today.
    
    Thank you so much for pouring forth His wisdom.  
    
    Love,
    Nancy

    Steve,
    
    You can interrupt me anytime.  That was a powerful note you wrote
    there.  I have one question do you know it with your head or your
    heart?
    
    Love you,
    Nancy

	Greetings, all.

	It is surely a blessing to hear again from Irena!  

        And Nancy, I have been so blessed and touched by your testimony, I
        cannot articulate it better than this:

		Jesus loves me this I know,
		For the Bible tells me so.
		Little ones to Him belong,
		They are weak but He is strong.

		Yes, Jesus loves me.
		Yes, Jesus loves me.
		Yes, Jesus loves me,
		The Bible tells me so.

	And your pastor is really exceptional.

	God's peace,
		TonyC

Bless you, Nanc, for you willingness to lay your life so totally open.  There
is so much blessing there for all who read.

And I know that wasn't as easy for you as it might have seemed.

...it's an honor to call you sister. :-)

Paul

>    Each one cried and said they understood and hugged me like I've never
>    been hugged before [until Paul Weiss - now that's a hug]

:-) :-) :-)

    .18
    
    Nancy,
    
    Definitely in my head, at least partially in my heart.
    
    That's really the best answer I can give at the moment.
    
    Thanks for sharing so openly about your life.  I know I'm not the only
    one who appreciates your openness and was blessed by it.
    
    
    -steve

    .21
    
    What will it take for the whole of it to reach your heart?  Or what do
    you think it would take?
    
    Love,
    Nancy
    
    P.S.
    Thanks... I shared it for you primarily, Bro.

    I'm glad that last note the other day wasn't where you are at now.
    Praying for God's faithful, tender care for you to be richly evident
    to you.

    Leslie

    
    Nancy, 
    
    Thanks for sharing.  
    
    You are by far a braver person than I am.  Each time I observe
    tough relationships like who have/are experiencing, it stops me
    cold.
    
    Bless you. 
    
    Mary Jo 
    Colorado Springs
    

    .22
    
    
    I'm getting closer day by day, actually.  It will take time.  I need
    time to let God revamp some of my old thought processes.  I need to
    stop living in the past, and I need a miracle (to put it bluntly). 
    Some things I am incapable of changing without help.  I'll start by
    trusting that He has already a plan for changing me in ways that I need
    to be changed.  Perhaps this bit of trust is a part of that plan.
    
    God has already been moving powerfully in my life, and I will do my
    best to get out of His way.
    
    
    -steve 

 Amen.

    Steve,
    
    I don't know if you read any miracles in my notes in this string, but I
    can honestly tell you there are many.  Oh, not miracles as in turning
    the water to wine, but heart miracles, the kind that changes the wino
    into a saint.
    
    Love you,
    Nancy

    Nancy,
    
    Miracles of the heart last longer than physical miracles, IMO (though
    there are physical miracles that greatly affect the heart/faith of the
    person, as well).
    
    I've already been blessed with miracles of the heart, so I've come to expect
    that more are on their way.  Believe that what you pray for will
    happen, right?  This has always been a weak spot of mine, and I'm
    learning now that I can have confidence in the Lord, that He does
    answer MY prayers - not just everyone else's.  For some reason I've
    always sort of excluded myself from this equation, like I'm some sort
    of exception or something.  I doubt I'm alone in this deception.  Satan
    is working hard to neutralise our effectiveness.  If we don't believe
    what we pray for will come to pass, doesn't that show a lack of faith
    of sorts?
    
    I know I need work on this, God knows I need work on this, and I've
    asked for His help.  I believe He will help, regardless of how things
    look at the moment.  
    
    Remember when Peter was on the boat, and Jesus was
    walking on water towards the boat?  Everyone was afraid at first, but
    when they found out who it was, Peter asked if he could walk out to
    Jesus... Jesus said c'mon out.  Peter was doing fine until his focus
    left Jesus and went to the large waves and the wind (circumstances).  I
    feel that I have been doing the same thing, concentrating on
    circumstances, rather than focusing on Jesus.  What can't He do?  Do
    do my circumstances and history somehow neutralize His power?  I think
    not.  They only neutralize my faith, thus the problems continue.  It's
    a terrible cycle, and one that I needed God to get me out of.
    
    But I digress... again.  I've been doing that a lot lately.  8^)

    .0
    
    Thanks for sharing that.  I can relate to in on many levels - except the
    "having" a girlfriend part, though I am seeing someone now who I
    would have been unready for even a few months ago.
    
    It's amazing how God works in us, how he can use even the bad times for
    a good purpose.
    
    
    -steve

    The previous 2 notes were moved here for topic consistency!
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy

>    Miracles of the heart last longer than physical miracles, IMO (though
>    there are physical miracles that greatly affect the heart/faith of the
>    person, as well).
    
    Would you agree with me that every "healing" God manifested in the
    physical began in the heart of the person who was healed?
    
    
>    I've already been blessed with miracles of the heart, so I've come to expect
>    that more are on their way.  Believe that what you pray for will
>    happen, right?  This has always been a weak spot of mine, and I'm
    
    James 4:2  Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot
    obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. 
      3  Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume
    it upon your lusts. 
    
    God has promised to meet our needs and commanded us to be content:
    
    1Tim6:6  But godliness with contentment is great gain.  7  For we
    brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry 
    nothing out.  8  And having food and raiment let us be therewith
    content. 
    
    Matthew 6:25  Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life,
    what  ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what
    ye shall put  on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than
    raiment? 
    
    Now how can we do this be content?  
    
    Matthew 6:34  Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow
    shall  take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day
    is the evil  thereof. 
    
    I would also suggest making a list of your needs and desires.  Then
    take each one and name them to the Lord in prayer and ask Him if they
    are needs or desires.  Be willing to have God define the list for you.
    
    And then the most difficult task of all is letting go of any false
    belief you may have had about desires and needs.
    
    1Tim6:3  If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome
    words, even the  words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine
    which is according to  godliness;  4  He is proud, knowing nothing, but
    doting about questions and strifes of  words, whereof cometh envy,
    strife, railings, evil surmisings,  5  Perverse disputings of men of
    corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth,  supposing that gain is
    godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    This teacher could be anything that enters into the ears or eyegate;
    music, tv, books, magazines, comics, movies,etc.  Don't let the world
    decide for you that which belongs to God.  
    
    
    
>    learning now that I can have confidence in the Lord, that He does
>    answer MY prayers - not just everyone else's.  For some reason I've
>    always sort of excluded myself from this equation, like I'm some sort
>    of exception or something.  I doubt I'm alone in this deception.  Satan
>    is working hard to neutralise our effectiveness.  If we don't believe
>    what we pray for will come to pass, doesn't that show a lack of faith
>    of sorts?
    
    
    You are not alone in this deception.  Alienation is a tool of Satan. 
    He used it in my life rather successfully; God didn't love *me*, He
    loved everyone else."   Anytime you start feeling "alone" and "unique"
    just remember that there is nothing new under the sun.
    
    Ecclesiastes 1:9  The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be;
    and  that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no
    new thing  under the sun. 
    
    To summarize, define needs and desires as your heart feels them today. 
    Then let God define them for you.  God answers all our prayers, but
    sometimes we think,  no today, means no forever and that isn't
    necessarily truth.  And lastly don't let Satan alienate you from your
    Brothers and Sisters with false beliefs.
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy

     Hi Nancy,
    
>    Would you agree with me that every "healing" God manifested in the
>    physical began in the heart of the person who was healed?
 
    I don't agree nor disagree with this.  It seems possible that in some
    instances, when God heals physically, that it is to bring about a
    heart-change.  Not being able to see the heart of these people, I
    really can't judge which comes first.    
    
>    James 4:2  Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot
>    obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. 
>      3  Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume
>    it upon your lusts. 
 
    This passage (4:2) strikes me as speaking to those who try to do things in
    their own power... who try to satiate their desires on their own. 
    Passage 4:3 seems to be speaking of those who ask out of selfishness,
    who don't have a heart for God. 
        
>    1Tim6:6  But godliness with contentment is great gain.  7  For we
>    brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry 
>    nothing out.  8  And having food and raiment let us be therewith
>    content. 
 
    These passages seem to be speaking of focus.  Focus on godliness, not
    on things that are temporal.  They merely distract us from what is
    really important.
            
>    I would also suggest making a list of your needs and desires.  Then
>    take each one and name them to the Lord in prayer and ask Him if they
>    are needs or desires.  Be willing to have God define the list for you.
 
    This is a good idea.
      
>    And then the most difficult task of all is letting go of any false
>    belief you may have had about desires and needs.
 
    Yes, it could indeed be difficult, to say the least.
       
>    1Tim6:3  If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome
>    words, even the  words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine
>    which is according to  godliness;  4  He is proud, knowing nothing, but
>    doting about questions and strifes of  words, whereof cometh envy,
>    strife, railings, evil surmisings,  5  Perverse disputings of men of
>    corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth,  supposing that gain is
>    godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
>    This teacher could be anything that enters into the ears or eyegate;
>    music, tv, books, magazines, comics, movies,etc.  Don't let the world
>    decide for you that which belongs to God.  
 
    Good point.  I've never read this particular passage in this way, but I
    think you may have something here.
    
>    You are not alone in this deception.  Alienation is a tool of Satan. 
>    He used it in my life rather successfully; God didn't love *me*, He
>    loved everyone else."   Anytime you start feeling "alone" and "unique"
>    just remember that there is nothing new under the sun.
 
    If Satan can alienate us, which can effectively not only ruin our
    faith, but ruin fellowship, then we allow him to win.  
    
    To apply this to my personal life, I keep dwelling upon "what if" and
    "should have", rather than living in the present.  I have been living
    in my past, using bad experiences in relationships to boost a negative
    (and wrongful) impression I have been carrying around about my
    circumstances.  The only thing I should be concentrating on is God...
    because no matter how lonely the past may have been, God is most
    certainly capable of changing that at any moment (for instance, a blind
    date that came "out of the blue" recently).  
       
>    To summarize, define needs and desires as your heart feels them today. 
 
    This would be a very interesting exercise if I had a similar list from
    a few years ago.  I've gone through a few major changes in this area.
    
>    Then let God define them for you.  God answers all our prayers, but
>    sometimes we think,  no today, means no forever and that isn't
>    necessarily truth.  
    
    I feel that the 'no', when it is in answer to a real need, is only 'no'
    until we are ready to deal with the circumstances surrounding a 'yes'. 
    
>    And lastly don't let Satan alienate you from your
>    Brothers and Sisters with false beliefs.
 
    Yes, this is another realization that hit a while back.  If you've
    noticed, I've not been my normal argumentative self.  I've gone to
    great lengths to police what comes from my keyboard, so as not to
    offend.  Doesn't mean I agree or that I won't discuss things, only that
    I strive to be less conflict-oriented... not that I always succeed, but
    I do try.
    
    
    Thanks for your words of wisdom.  
    
    Godbless!
    -steve

    
me>    Would you agree with me that every "healing" God manifested in the
me>    physical began in the heart of the person who was healed?
 
>    I don't agree nor disagree with this.  It seems possible that in some
>    instances, when God heals physically, that it is to bring about a
>    heart-change.  Not being able to see the heart of these people, I
>    really can't judge which comes first.    
    
    Hmm, on further thought perhaps I should have written the statement
    like this:
    
    Would you agree with me that every "healing" God manifested in the
    physical either began or ended in the heart of the person who was
    healed?
    
    In recorded specific instances of Jesus' healing of the afflicted there
    was either a heart changed before or after the healing.  In the woman
    who touched the hem of His garment, her heart knew He could heal her,
    so she sought Jesus.  In the maniac who was afflicted with many demons,
    he immediately clothed himself and proclaimed to everyone about Jesus,
    to the lame who sat at the gates, when he jumped up and ran, he ran
    proclaiming the faith of Christ.  So, it is my opinion that every heart
    was affected either before or after the healing.
    
    
    
>    James 4:2  Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot
>    obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. 
>      3  Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume
>    it upon your lusts. 
 
>    This passage (4:2) strikes me as speaking to those who try to do things in
>    their own power... who try to satiate their desires on their own. 
>    Passage 4:3 seems to be speaking of those who ask out of selfishness,
>    who don't have a heart for God. 
    
    I beg to differ with you.  Many people have a heart for God, but are
    immature in faith.  This is quite evidence in Paul's writing to the
    church of Corinth.  Also, read Revelations too for the mature in faith
    who left their first Love.  What draws one away from their first love? 
    The desires of the heart which are not surrendered to Him, is what I
    believe.  This is having a form of godliness, but denying the power
    thereof.
    
        
>    1Tim6:6  But godliness with contentment is great gain.  7  For we
>    brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry 
>    nothing out.  8  And having food and raiment let us be therewith
>    content. 
 
>    These passages seem to be speaking of focus.  Focus on godliness, not
>    on things that are temporal.  They merely distract us from what is
>    really important.
    
    Amen, Steve!  And there is a lot to distract us from godliness in our
    world today and powerful mediums through which they are deployed.
            
me>    And then the most difficult task of all is letting go of any false
me>    belief you may have had about desires and needs.
 
>    Yes, it could indeed be difficult, to say the least.
    
    It is difficult, but the difficulty comes through convincing our hearts
    they are false beliefs.  I find once I really grasp that I have a false
    belief, letting it go is easy. :-)  
    
       
    
me>    This teacher could be anything that enters into the ears or eyegate;
me>    music, tv, books, magazines, comics, movies,etc.  Don't let the world
me>    decide for you that which belongs to God.  
 
  >  Good point.  I've never read this particular passage in this way, but I
  >  think you may have something here.
    
    What goes along with this passage is:
    
    Phillipians 4:8
    
    Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever  things are
    honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, 
    whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if
    there  be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these
    things. 
    
    
>    If Satan can alienate us, which can effectively not only ruin our
>    faith, but ruin fellowship, then we allow him to win.  
    
    Yes, but his victory is only temporary. :-)  God has already won the
    victory and overcome evil with Good.  This is the HOPE of our Salvation
    and the source of the strength of Christians all over the world today:
    
    We are more than conquerors!
    
    Romans 8:37  Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors
    through him  that loved us.
    
    

    re .34
    
    Nancy I think you should have added one line to the end of that reply:
    
    "Think of these things."  :-)
    
    
    
    
    Faith, Hope, and Love.  The greatest of these is love...but you need
    faith and then HOPE to get there.
    
    
    
    Jill
    

    .35
    
    Hmm, do we really need faith and hope to get Love?  From how many
    different perspectives can we look at this?
    
    God is Love and through our faith we receive Love into our hearts which
    gives us Hope and then we Love others because He first loved us?
    
    So actually it should begin with Love and end with Love! :-) x 100
    
    That's why love is the greatest!  

    :-)