| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 74.1 | The 4 Categories of Spiritual "Things" | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Fri Apr 25 1997 17:49 | 35 |
| There are 4 Categories of Spiritual "Things" (1 Corinthians 12:1-7)
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*1* *2* *3* *4*
verse 4 verse 5 verse 6 verse 7
-GIFTS- -MINISTRIES- -EFFECTS- -MANIFESTATIONS-
(This is your (Jobs - Listed (Results or (Spiritual Power -
MOTIVE for in Ephesians Operations) Listed in 1 Cor.
service. 4:11. Christ's 12:8-10)
Listed in gift to the
Romans 12:6-8) Church)
1. Prophecy 1. Apostles 1. Word of Wisdom
- Declaring
the Truth
2. Service 2. Prophets 2. Word of Knowledge
- Practicing
the Truth
3. Teaching 3. Evangelists 3. Faith
- Explaining
the Truth
4. Exhortation 4. Pastor/Teachers 4. Gifts of Healing
- Applying
the Truth
5. Giving <-------------------------------- 5. Effecting of
- Supporting All these "Manifestations" can Miracles
the Truth come alongside your gift to
6. Leading empower you in your service 6. Prophecy
- Organizing for the Lord.
the Truth
7. Mercy 7. Distinguishing
- Ministering of spirits
the Truth
8. Tongues
|
| 74.2 | | ALFSS1::BENSONA | Eternal Weltanschauung | Fri Apr 25 1997 17:54 | 9 |
|
Of course I believe that generally the "Manifestations" were uniquely
associated with the establishment of the NT church and are not
manifested today; and what are manifested as these gifts today are not
manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
The whole classification of gifts seems tedious and irrelevant to me.
jeff
|
| 74.3 | Know Your Gift | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Fri Apr 25 1997 17:54 | 16 |
| Know Your Gift
--------------
- What do you like to do? Are you verbal or non-verbal?
- What are you doing right now in your church? (area of service)
- What do you really not like doing?
- Can't have more than 1 gift. Romans 12:6-8 is singular. In 1
Corinthians 12 we learn that each believer is 1 part of the body of
Christ. See also 1 Timothy 4:14, 2 Timothy 1:6, 1 Peter 4:10.
Hazards
-------
- There are also hazards or pitfalls for each gift that the enemy will
use against you. For example, Prophecy is susceptible to lack of
sensitivity and speaking the truth in love. Service is susceptible
to burnout. Gifts like Teaching and Giving can be prone to pride.
|
| 74.4 | Ministries | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Fri Apr 25 1997 17:57 | 7 |
| Ministries
----------
1. Apostles - typically they are church planters.
2. Prophets - these are the reformers.
3. Evangelists - fishers of men (i.e., Billy Graham)
4. Pastor/Teachers - hyphenated in Greek; these are the shepherds of
God's people.
|
| 74.5 | The Perfect | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Fri Apr 25 1997 18:08 | 34 |
| I really don't want to rathole this discussion, but would like to offer
some food for thought.
| Of course I believe that generally the "Manifestations" were uniquely
| associated with the establishment of the NT church and are not
| manifested today; and what are manifested as these gifts today are not
| manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
Many Baptists also believe this based on this verse:
1 Cor. 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall
be done away.
They believe that the perfect is the Bible. However, God's Word won't
pass away, it will endure forever. The "perfect" here has to be
Christ. This means that the manifestations of the Spirit still apply
to today.
R.A. Torrey believed in the manifestations of the Spirit too. He
didn't include them in his "Fundamentals..." because of the abuse that
was occuring in the Pentecostal movement near the turn of the century.
When you have ignorance of these spiritual "things," like we have
today, it causes:
1. Abuse of the manifestations
2. Fear " " "
3. Disuse " " " (1 Corinthians 14:32)
4. Unbelief " " (Matthew 13:58)
| The whole classification of gifts seems tedious and irrelevant to me.
Thanks for the info.
|
| 74.6 | | ALFSS1::BENSONA | Eternal Weltanschauung | Fri Apr 25 1997 19:53 | 52 |
| >> I really don't want to rathole this discussion, but would like to offer
>> some food for thought.
| Of course I believe that generally the "Manifestations" were uniquely
| associated with the establishment of the NT church and are not
| manifested today; and what are manifested as these gifts today are not
| manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
>> Many Baptists also believe this based on this verse:
>>1 Cor. 13:10
>> But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall
>> be done away.
My belief is not based on this verse. All Presbyterians who still hold
to the Bible and its gospel as well as all Reformed churches believe
what they believe not based upon a verse in the Bible but upon a whole
theological and historical understanding of Scripture.
>>When you have ignorance of these spiritual "things," like we have
>>today, it causes:
I challenge you to really reassess your statement, Mike. Evangelicals do
not suffer from ignorance of Biblical teaching around gifts.
>>1. Abuse of the manifestations
>>2. Fear " " "
>>3. Disuse " " " (1 Corinthians 14:32)
>>4. Unbelief " " (Matthew 13:58)
The real reason manifestations are not trusted is that their
theological authenticity is in doubt among those who might allow their
existence without embracing them, for starters. Secondly, they seem
inauthentic to many Christians who observe them. Third, they generally
do not produce the good works one expects. Fourth, they are closely
linked with men many people know in their hearts are not sincere or are
sincerely deceived. But let's be sure - there's no ignorance about the
whole subject across evangelicalism.
| The whole classification of gifts seems tedious and irrelevant to me.
>>Thanks for the info.
I'm sorry, Mike, I didn't mean to offend you. I've seen this
classification so many times in so many churches over time and I've
seen nothing good come of it. And of course I disagree with very much
of it, believing it to be at odds with sound theology, and hate to see
so much effort and energy wasted on constructing a fallacy. So, I was
commenting on the common method of presentation, not on your effort
particularly.
jeff
|
| 74.7 | Example: Word of Knowledge | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Fri Apr 25 1997 20:24 | 33 |
| Jeff, no offense taken, but thanks for the apology anyway.
May I offer an example of good fruit that recently happened at our
church? Our Pastor gave the invitation for those to accept Christ as
their Lord and Savior a few Sunday nights ago. Following the chart in
.1, it is quite common for someone in the ministry of Pastor/Teacher to
have the Gift of Teaching.
After several people accepted the invitation to come forward and
receive Christ, Pastor stated that he felt God telling him that there
was still 1 more who needed to come forward and his name was "John."
Pastor said he would wait a couple more minutes, but nobody came
forward.
However, after the service a young lady approached our Pastor. She said
that there was a young man sitting next to her in the service, who had
raised his hand to accept Christ but didn't go forward. His name was
"John."
When we started studying 1 Corinthians 12 last week, Pastor told the
entire congregation about this during the study. This was explained as
being the Holy Spirit manifesting itself through a Word of Knowledge -
something revealed to you by the Holy Spirit which you couldn't have
known otherwise. The Holy Spirit empowered our Pastor, through this
manifestation, to come alongside his gift from the Holy Spirit, and
reach this lost soul for God's Kingdom.
"John" was in the service that day to hear about himself and came
forward to accept Christ as his Savior because of the testimony of the
Holy Spirit manifesting Himself through believers.
Praise God!
Mike
|
| 74.8 | | CSC32::HOEPNER | A closed mouth gathers no feet | Fri Apr 25 1997 20:27 | 28 |
|
This is a real can of worms.
I go to a church where we believe in the present day manifestation
of gifts. My brother and his family attend a church where they don't.
And we don't fight about it. Who is right? We both have scripture
to point to to back our perspectives. I understand why they believe
they do. They understand from scripture why I believe I do. We
agree to disagree, understanding that we have a mighty God to serve.
And that we need to be careful to not reject what is from Him. He
can do anything He wants. If if He choses to bestow a gift on someone
for whatever reason it is best not to ignore it.
This is one point that tends to divide Christians and to cause to focus
on our differences rather than on the healing, saving grace of our Lord
Jesus Christ.
Therefore, for my friends, relatives and colleagues that share a
differing view on the subject, we chose to focus on our common ground--
our Lord Jesus Christ.
BTW, my family and I don't agree on music either. ;-)
Mary Jo
Colorado Springs
|
| 74.9 | | ALFSS1::BENSONA | Eternal Weltanschauung | Fri Apr 25 1997 20:46 | 53 |
| > Jeff, no offense taken, but thanks for the apology anyway.
Good. And you're welcome.
>May I offer an example of good fruit that recently happened at our
>church? Our Pastor gave the invitation for those to accept Christ as
>their Lord and Savior a few Sunday nights ago. Following the chart in
>.1, it is quite common for someone in the ministry of Pastor/Teacher to
>have the Gift of Teaching.
>After several people accepted the invitation to come forward and
>receive Christ, Pastor stated that he felt God telling him that there
>was still 1 more who needed to come forward and his name was "John."
>Pastor said he would wait a couple more minutes, but nobody came
>forward.
You might not be surprised that I believe there is no Biblical basis
for the invitation system used by many evangelical churches and that
the link between coming forward and being saved is specious.
>However, after the service a young lady approached our Pastor. She said
>that there was a young man sitting next to her in the service, who had
>raised his hand to accept Christ but didn't go forward. His name was
>"John."
The man was ostensibly saved then; he did not have to go forward.
>When we started studying 1 Corinthians 12 last week, Pastor told the
>entire congregation about this during the study. This was explained as
>being the Holy Spirit manifesting itself through a Word of Knowledge -
>something revealed to you by the Holy Spirit which you couldn't have
>known otherwise. The Holy Spirit empowered our Pastor, through this
>manifestation, to come alongside his gift from the Holy Spirit, and
>reach this lost soul for God's Kingdom.
>"John" was in the service that day to hear about himself and came
>forward to accept Christ as his Savior because of the testimony of the
>Holy Spirit manifesting Himself through believers.
This doesn't make sense, Mike. If John was saved when he trusted
Christ alone for salvation (when he raised his hand) then John didn't
have to do anything more to be saved such as later come to the front.
How do you know that it was not another John who needed to be saved,
who didn't raise his hand and who never came forward?
It is just this type of example which causes me to be more and more
experientially convinced (already being theologically convinced) that
the charismatic gifts expressed today are not authentic.
jeff
|
| 74.10 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Fri Apr 25 1997 21:58 | 28 |
| | You might not be surprised that I believe there is no Biblical basis
| for the invitation system used by many evangelical churches and that
| the link between coming forward and being saved is specious.
Yes, I've seen you mention this before and I'm surprised by it still.
How about Romans 10:9-13?
10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be
saved.
10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth
confession is made unto salvation.
10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be
ashamed.
10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same
Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
By praying the "Sinner's Prayer" in the presence of witnesses you are
obtaining salvation and confessing Christ before men.
| How do you know that it was not another John who needed to be saved,
| who didn't raise his hand and who never came forward?
By his own testimony and the witness of the woman who previously sat
next to him.
Mike
|
| 74.11 | RE: .9 & .10 | ROCK::PARKER | | Fri Apr 25 1997 22:24 | 12 |
| Jesus said, "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will
I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall
deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in
heaven." (Mt.10:32&33)
An invitation to come forward postured as a requirement for salvation
is wrong. An invitation offered as opportunity to confess Christ
before men is right.
For most of us, there are ample opportunities to either confess or deny
Christ before men. And the context of the verses above is, in fact, a
hostile one in which we might question God's care for us.
|
| 74.12 | 1 Corinthians 12 *does not contain the Gifts*! | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Sun Apr 27 1997 17:17 | 73 |
| In trying to summarize the chart in .1 and bringing this back on topic,
I will state that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are in Romans 12 and not
in 1 Corinthians 12. This is the source of the confusion in the Church
today!
How can we know this? First of all, if you have a good study Bible, it
becomes very obvious. The word "gifts" in 1 Corinthians 12:1 is in
italics. Some Christians think that this is done for emphasis (I know
because I've met some). The truth is that italics in a good study
Bible is placed there to show the reader that the word doesn't exist in
the original manuscripts. Translators add these words in italics with
good intentions - to make the text read better - but in this case it
has caused much confusion, especially in charismania. The Greek in
1 Corinthians 12:1 actually refers to spiritual "things."
Another reason we know 1 Corinthians 12 does not contain gifts is that
not every Christian experiences everything in this chapter, but every
Christian does possess a gift in Romans 12. Romans 12 contains what
Christ would do if He was on the earth today. The Church (Body of
Christ) is here doing His work in His place. Every Christian has a
Gift of the Holy Spirit as explained in Romans 12. Every Christian
does not experience every *Manifestation* of the Holy Spirit in 1
Corinthians 12.
I remember in my Pentecostal days hearing things like:
"Brother, did you get the gift yet?"
"Brother, are you filled with the gift?"
"Brother, you really need that gift!"
I eventually experienced the *Manifestation* of the Holy Spirit via
Speaking in Tongues. It wasn't without some frustration and heartache
though. I know this happens to many people in Pentecostal
denominations too. It is a shame that a little grounding in the Word
could prevent a lot of heartache for those seeking a closer walk with
God. It could also prevent a lot of error.
Now that we have completed this Observation, Interpretation, and
Application, we can see clearly that 1 Corinthians 12:4 is referring to
these Gifts of the Holy Spirit in Romans 12. 1 Corinthians 12:7 is the
Holy Spirit telling us through Paul that verses 8-10 are
*Manifestations* of the Holy Spirit. The confusion in the Church can
end, for God is not the author of confusion!
What should also jump out at you now are spiritual "things" or
manifestations that aren't mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12 that some
Christians blame on the Holy Spirit today:
"Slain in the Spirit"
"Laughing in the Spirit"
"Drunk in the Spirit"
"Shaking in the Spirit"
"Barking in the Spirit"
"Growling in the Spirit"
Look at what this confusion has yielded in charismania today. They
have overstepped the bounds of God's Word. The Holy Spirit is not only
a perfect gentleman, never overstepping His bounds, but 1 Corinthians
14 tells us that the Spirit is subject to the prophets. Don't tell us
that you couldn't help yourself or God was moving on you - this
contradicts God's Word and the Holy Spirit's behavior. As stated before,
ignorance of Spiritual "things" causes:
1. Abuse of Manifestations
2. Fear " "
3. Disuse " "
4. Unbelief " "
It's time to end the confusion and ignorance. Study the outline in .1
and share it with your Christian brothers and sisters.
God Bless,
Mike
|
| 74.13 | | PAULKM::WEISS | To speak the Truth, you must first live it | Mon Apr 28 1997 15:30 | 49 |
| Sigh.
I don't have the energy to really dive into this again, but I don't suppose
I'll be able to stay away. :-) Thanks, Mike, for what you have posted.
Jeff, I'm going to ask you something straight out, before this goes any
further. This is not a personal attack, but it a request based on a history
of having this converstion with you before, and seeing it begin again. Will
you please do one of two things:
Fully expound your 'whole theological and historical understanding of
Scripture' regarding the cessation of the gifts.
Do not participate in this discussion.
Every time this subject comes up, you denounce it, but you have *never*
explained why. You always make vague references to a 'thorough understanding
of Scripture,' but you have never, ever, been willing to explain what you
mean by that. Your position seems, on the face of it, to be thoroughly
AGAINST scripture. If we are wrong about that - then PLEASE HELP US SEE THE
TRUTH!!! Don't just say, again, 'You don't see the truth, but I don't have
the time to tell you about it.'
I will do all I can to participate in this discussion with you in as loving a
manner as possible. But we can't really even HAVE a discussion unless you
will explain why you believe what you do.
....
Mary Jo...
You're right, this can be a real can of worms. And you're right that we
should not *fight* about it, and that we need to accept each other as
brothers and sisters in Christ even if we disagree about this subject.
But that doesn't mean that so long as we keep our eyes on Christ and on
loving each other, that we can't or shouldn't talk about this issue. Because
it IS important. It's not a crucial doctrinal issue - belief one way or the
other is not incompatible with a saving faith in Jesus Christ - but there is
quite a bit at stake, in either direction. If it's true that there are no
manifestations of the Holy Spirit today, then that means that churchs that DO
believe so are being deceived, and Jesus warned people to be careful of
deception. If it IS true that the Holy Spirit still works through us in this
way, then churches that deny that are being robbed of the power and the
giftings that God desires to give them.
I for one would be glad to continue to DISCUSS this.
Paul
|
| 74.14 | Thanks Paul | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Apr 28 1997 16:09 | 5 |
| Excellent reply Paul.
Thanks,
Tony
|
| 74.15 | | ALFSS1::BENSONA | Eternal Weltanschauung | Mon Apr 28 1997 16:14 | 36 |
|
>Jeff, I'm going to ask you something straight out, before this goes any
>further. This is not a personal attack, but it a request based on a history
>of having this converstion with you before, and seeing it begin again. Will
>you please do one of two things:
> Fully expound your 'whole theological and historical understanding of
> Scripture' regarding the cessation of the gifts.
>Do not participate in this discussion.
>Every time this subject comes up, you denounce it, but you have *never*
>explained why. You always make vague references to a 'thorough understanding
>of Scripture,' but you have never, ever, been willing to explain what you
>mean by that. Your position seems, on the face of it, to be thoroughly
>AGAINST scripture. If we are wrong about that - then PLEASE HELP US SEE THE
>TRUTH!!! Don't just say, again, 'You don't see the truth, but I don't have
>the time to tell you about it.'
Paul, I do not have to provide the level of details you are requesting
and I do not have to cease commenting at the level of detail at which I
have commented. Time is the issue for me and I think it is enough,
under the circumstances, for people to know that another
long-standing, Bible-believing participant in this forum disagrees very
significantly with the common assertions of biblical gifts as promoted
by those who are roughly charismatic. The body of orthodox teaching on
this subject is publicly available and any number of other people here
share my beliefs, whether they defend it publicly or not for whatever
reasons.
I trust that God will move those who are dissatisfied and uneasy with
Mike's promotions to seek the alternatives and they will know that I
can help them in their endeavor. It is not the committed charismatic I
hope to reform.
jeff
|
| 74.16 | | PAULKM::WEISS | To speak the Truth, you must first live it | Mon Apr 28 1997 16:55 | 34 |
| > Time is the issue for me and I think it is enough,
> under the circumstances, for people to know that another
> long-standing, Bible-believing participant in this forum disagrees very
> significantly with the common assertions of biblical gifts as promoted
> by those who are roughly charismatic. The body of orthodox teaching on
> this subject is publicly available and any number of other people here
> share my beliefs, whether they defend it publicly or not for whatever
> reasons.
I can certainly understand and agree with this, Jeff. I understand time
limitations, and I agree with your assertion that sometimes it is enough to
simply state our disagreement, and let people know that someone disagrees
with something that is being asserted. I wholeheartedly support your
inclination to do just that.
But....
Fine, you've done that now. We know that you disagree, we know that, as you
say, you could help any one of us who seeks to understand the alternatives.
What I'm asking you to do is to refrain from continuing to spend a lot of
time saying that same thing again. Historically, in discussions like this
you have not been willing to expound on your beliefs, claiming a lack of
time. You have then often spent an awful lot of time stating and re-stating
that if only we had a 'thorough understanding' of the Word, we would agree
with you.
If your desire is to let it be known that you disagree, you have done that,
and I respect you and thank you for it. If your desire is to continue in
this discussion then I would ask you to bring some further substance to the
table for us to discuss.
Thanks,
Paul
|
| 74.17 | | PAULKM::WEISS | To speak the Truth, you must first live it | Mon Apr 28 1997 17:23 | 358 |
| If you do choose to continue...
I contend, Jeff, that your position is thoroughly anti-Biblical. That there
is no indication anywhere in the Word that the gifts have ceased in our time,
and that a position that says they have is flatly contradicted by dozens of
verses. I've included below a note that I posted the last time this
discussion was raised.
I'd be delighted to DISCUSS this with you. I'd be delighted to look at
overall principles in the scriptures, not just specific verses. I'd be
delighted to look at it in any way that you wish as long as that method is
based, ultimately, on the Word.
Paul
<<< RGNET::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN_V7.NOTE;1 >>>
-< The CHRISTIAN Notesfile >-
=============================================================================
Note 926.53 Prophetic Word 53 of 164
PAULKM::WEISS "I will sing of the mercies of the LORD forever..." 336 lines
1-OCT-1996 13:53:18.10
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OK, Jeff, you have claimed repeatedly that:
> A thorough understanding of the Scriptures which mention prophecy does
> not support the modern idea of prophecy.
claiming that there is no such thing as prophecy any more. I would like you
to apply your 'thorough understanding' to the following verses, plus any
other verses which you desire to include. This is a compilation of all the
verses in the NT which speak of the role of the prophet and prophecy in the
christian church. I've omitted the verses which say "The Law and the
Prophets" or are otherwise clearly talking about the old testament prophets.
Verses extracted in NIV by Logos Bible Software
Acts 2:16-18
No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: "`In the last days, God
says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters
will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream
dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my
Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
Peter proclaims that the day has come, that God has poured out His spirit on
all people, and the result is that all people will be able to prophesy.
Later in this same discourse, he proclaims "The promise is for you and for
your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall
call to himself." That would include us.
Acts 11:27-28
During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. One
of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a
severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened
during the reign of Claudius.)
Just 'some prophets.' Luke treats the fact that the were prophets as being
pretty unremarkable.
Acts 13:1
In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas,
Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up
with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul.
Acts 15:32
Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and
strengthen the brothers.
Again, prophets are mentioned fairly casually, as if they were not at all
remarkable.
Acts 19:6-7
When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they
spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.
These 12 men had never heard of Christ before this day, and began prophesying
immediately upon recieving baptism. We don't even know their names.
Acts 21:8-11
Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of
Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. He had four unmarried daughters
who prophesied. After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named
Agabus came down from Judea. Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied
his own hands and feet with it and said, "The Holy Spirit says, `In this
way the Jews of Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand
him over to the Gentiles.'"
We don't know the names of these four daughters, either, though we have heard
of Agabus before. The point I'm making here is that prophecy was NOT treated
as some unique, remarkable or unusual gift. It was just a part of the body
of Christ.
Romans 12:6
We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift
is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.
Just another gift among many, according to Paul. Prophecy is listed here
along with service, teaching, exhortation, giving, leading, and showing
mercy. There's no reason to believe that ANY of these gifts have passed
away. And we are exhorted by Paul to USE this gift.
1 Corinthians 11:4-5
Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his
head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered
dishonors her head -- it is just as though her head were shaved.
Simple instructions on how to show respect when prophesying. This implies
that the gift of prophecy is being given to people who would need this
teaching.
1 Corinthians 12:7-11
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common
good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to
another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another
faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another
distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of
tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are
the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just
as he determines.
Again, prophecy is simply one gift among many. All these gifts are given FOR
THE COMMON GOOD.
1 Corinthians 12:28-29
And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second
prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having
gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of
administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all
apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
Again, a gift among many, an office among many. Not all are given this
gifting.
1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all
knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not
love, I am nothing.
Not to be elevated.
1 Corinthians 13:8-10
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where
there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will
pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when
perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
This does say that prophecies will cease. But the context is talking about
'then, when we will see face to face.' We will no need prophecy in heaven,
for each will hear the voice of God directly.
1 Corinthians 14:1-6
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the
gift of prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men
but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his
spirit. But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their
strengthening, encouragement and comfort. He who speaks in a tongue
edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I would like
every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you
prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues,
unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified. Now, brothers,
if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless
I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of
instruction?
Such direct exhortation! I would REALLY like to understand what you do with
these verses, Jeff. We are exhorted to eagerly desire the spiritual gifts,
ESPECIALLY prophecy. Paul then goes on to expound on the virtues and
benefits of prophecy. Where does the idea come from that this is NOT to
apply to us?
1 Corinthians 14:22-32
Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers;
prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. So if the whole
church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not
understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out
of your mind? But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand
comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that
he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart
will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God
is really among you!" What then shall we say, brothers? When you come
together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a
tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the
strengthening of the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two -- or at
the most three -- should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.
If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church
and speak to himself and God. Two or three prophets should speak, and the
others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to
someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can
all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.
The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.
"Prophecy is for believers." Wow. Are we believers? Then prophecy is for
us! This passage also tells us more about prophecy. It may come suddenly -
in this passage Paul tells a person standing and speaking to sit down and be
quiet if someone who was sitting suddenly receives a word from the Lord.
Second, Paul exhorts the people to have others with prophetic giftings to
listen carefully to every word that is spoken in prophecy, and that the
prophecy is subject to the other prophets. I think this is where the modern
church largely fails, in failing to have prophecy subject to other prophets.
1 Corinthians 14:36-39
Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has
reached? If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him
acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. If he
ignores this, he himself will be ignored. Therefore, my brothers, be eager
to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
If someone who thinks themselves a prophet goes against God's written Word,
he is to be ignored. And again, Paul exhorts us to be eager to prophesy.
Ephesians 2:19-20
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens
with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation
of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief
cornerstone.
Ephesians 3:4-5
In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the
mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as
it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and
prophets.
Ephesians 4:11-13
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be
evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people
for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we
all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and
become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
In these three passages, 'apostles and prophets' seem to be lumped together.
The context is clearly that of the Christian church.
1 Thessalonians 5:19-22
Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt.
Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil.
It is clear that even in Paul's day, some people were disturbed by prophecy,
and tried to quell it. Paul admonished them not to do such a thing.
1 Timothy 1:18
Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the
prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight
the good fight,
1 Timothy 4:14
Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message
when the body of elders laid their hands on you.
Timothy was given his ministry in prophecy.
2 Peter 1:20-21
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by
the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in
the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the
Holy Spirit.
Prophecy is speaking the mind and heart of God.
Revelation 11:3
And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for
1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."
Revelation 11:6
These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during
the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into
blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they
want.
At the end times, there will be people prophesying.
Revelation 19:10
At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do
it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the
testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit
of prophecy."
Do we have the testimony of Jesus? It is the Spirit of Prophecy!
**********************************
We should also deal with the texts that speak of false prophets, so we know
how to recognize them:
Logos Bible Software
Matthew 7:15-20
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but
inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize
them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the
fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
We are to know prophets by their fruits. Are people drawn closer to Jesus?
Is a greater hunger for the Word awakened in their hearts? Are they
convicted of sin? Filled with the Joy of the Lord?
And we must remember this is fruits, not blossoms. A lot of Satan's lies
smell sweet at the start. We must look at what transpires by harvest time.
Matthew 24:10-11
At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate
each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
Matthew 24:23-24
At that time if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or, `There
he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will
appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect --
if that were possible.
Mark 13:21-22
At that time if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or, `Look,
there he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets
will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect -- if that
were possible.
Acts 13:6
They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There
they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus,
2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be
false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive
heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them -- bringing
swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and
will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers
will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has
long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
All these verses show that there will be many imposters. We must be wary.
1 John 4:1-3
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see
whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into
the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit
that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but
every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the
spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is
already in the world.
The fact that we are exhorted to test the spirits, and learn to recognize the
Spirit of God, surely must be that we ARE supposed to learn to listen to
God's true spirit?
***********************************************
This is why I believe prophecy is for today. Every single place it is
mentioned in the NT, with the exception of 1Cor 13, proclaims and exhorts
that it is to be a part of our lives as Christians. I find absolutely
nothing anywhere to suggest anything differently.
I would, of course, be delighted to be shown to be wrong. I'm always hungry
for more of the truth. Can you show how a 'thorough understanding' of these
verses or others should lead me to conclude that I should NOT expect to see
prophecy in the Body of Christ today?
Paul
|
| 74.18 | | DECWET::WANG | | Mon Apr 28 1997 20:02 | 20 |
| RE: .3
> - Can't have more than 1 gift. Romans 12:6-8 is singular. In 1
> Corinthians 12 we learn that each believer is 1 part of the body of
> Christ. See also 1 Timothy 4:14, 2 Timothy 1:6, 1 Peter 4:10.
NASB:
6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us,
each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy,
according to the proportion of his faith;
7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching;
8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality;
he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.
The way I read it, even it is singular, it does not preclude the possiblities
that a person to have mroe than 1 gift.
Also Mike, what does "Maranatha" mean in your personal name?
|
| 74.19 | Singular cross-references | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Mon Apr 28 1997 20:40 | 26 |
| |> - Can't have more than 1 gift. Romans 12:6-8 is singular. In 1
|> Corinthians 12 we learn that each believer is 1 part of the body of
|> Christ. See also 1 Timothy 4:14, 2 Timothy 1:6, 1 Peter 4:10.
|
|The way I read it, even it is singular, it does not preclude the possiblities
|that a person to have mroe than 1 gift.
Check the cross-references. Paul always referred to its use in the
believer using the singular form.
1 Timothy 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy,
with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
2 Timothy 1:6
Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God,
which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
1 Peter 4:10
As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to
another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
|Also Mike, what does "Maranatha" mean in your personal name?
It is an Aramaic expression for "O Lord Come!" It's in 1 Corinthians
16:22
|
| 74.20 | one Gift, possibly more than one manifestation? | CUJO::SAMPSON | | Tue Apr 29 1997 02:35 | 6 |
| Mike,
Could it be that the "singular gift" given to each believer
is simply the Holy Spirit? Does that fit well, or not?
Bob Sampson
|
| 74.21 | Gifts are for building up/equipping the body of Christ | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Tue Apr 29 1997 14:59 | 10 |
| Bob, every believer is filled/sealed by/with the Holy Spirit upon
salvation. Every believer is also given a Gift of the Holy Spirit as
listed in Romans 12. Part of the filling is the fulfillment of Acts
1:8 to allow the Christian to live victoriously in the Lord. The Gifts
in Romans 12 are for doing the Lord's work.
They could be imparted at the same time by the Holy Spirit's filling.
I can't think of any scripture to support it though.
Mike
|
| 74.22 | just trying to make sure | CUJO::SAMPSON | | Tue Apr 29 1997 17:05 | 6 |
| Mike,
Isn't the Holy Spirit ever referred to as a gift? Or is it always as
a "promise"?
Bob
|
| 74.23 | | PAULKM::WEISS | To speak the Truth, you must first live it | Tue Apr 29 1997 17:24 | 15 |
| Yes, the Spirit is referred to as a gift - but in a somewhat different manner
than the 'gifts' of the spirit.
The gift of the Holy Spirit is ours for the asking - Jesus said so in Lk
11:13 - "If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to
your children, how much mnore will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit
to those who ask Him!" This gift comes with Salvation: "Repent and be
baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness
of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Ac 2:38
(Also Ac 10:45)
The gifts OF the spirit are separate gifts that are not general but are given
to different people as the Lord sees fit - see 1 Cor 12.
Paul
|
| 74.24 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Tue Apr 29 1997 17:26 | 34 |
| See for yourself:
$ search/nolog/win/match=and [.bible.new_testament]*.txt spirit,gift
1_CORINTHIANS.TXT
12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you
ignorant.
12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of
healing by the same Spirit;
14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye
may prophesy.
14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that
ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
ROMANS.TXT;2
1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual
gift, to the end ye may be established
$ search/nolog/win/match=and [.bible.new_testament]*.txt spirit,promise
EPHESIANS.TXT
1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the
gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were
sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
GALATIANS.TXT
3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus
Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through
faith.
|
| 74.25 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Tue Apr 29 1997 17:28 | 8 |
| |The gifts OF the spirit are separate gifts that are not general but are given
|to different people as the Lord sees fit - see 1 Cor 12.
Paul, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are in Romans 12, not 1 Corinthians 12.
1 Corinthians 12 are manifestations of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:7).
You are displaying the confusion in today's Church that I keep referring
to.
|
| 74.26 | | PAULKM::WEISS | To speak the Truth, you must first live it | Tue Apr 29 1997 19:16 | 26 |
| I was more contrasting the general gift of the Holy Spirit with the more
specific [somethings] that are described in 1 Cor 12 and in Romans 12, which
are given to different individuals in different measure.
I agree in general that there are some different categorizations that get
confused about ministries, gifts, and manifestations, and I think the table
in .1 gives a fairly good categorization of them. But I'm not sure they're
quite as neatly categorizable as the table shows. For example, one of the
'manifestations' is called 'gifts of healing,' using the same word for 'gift'
that is used in Romans 12. And prophecy is listed as a manifestation, listed
as a gift, and listed as a ministry.
I guess the biggest piece I'm not getting is how this table or the
distinctions made by it will eliminate 'charismania' and bring order to the
church.
BTW, I *totally* agree with this:
>ignorance of Spiritual "things" causes:
>
> 1. Abuse of Manifestations
> 2. Fear " "
> 3. Disuse " "
> 4. Unbelief " "
Paul
|
| 74.27 | still wondering | CUJO::SAMPSON | | Tue Apr 29 1997 19:36 | 3 |
| Yes, all well and good. I'm just wondering whether a reference to
a singular gift within a believer might actually refer to the Holy
Spirit Himself...
|
| 74.28 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Tue Apr 29 1997 19:50 | 36 |
| |quite as neatly categorizable as the table shows. For example, one of the
|'manifestations' is called 'gifts of healing,' using the same word for 'gift'
|that is used in Romans 12. And prophecy is listed as a manifestation, listed
|as a gift, and listed as a ministry.
"Gifts of Healing" could just as easily be interpreted "Blessings of
Healing." It is referring to blessings from God in heaven resulting in
healing. As for prophecy, the organization in .1 shows that any
manifestation can come alongside the believer's Romans 12 gift as the
Holy Spirit moves and as God wills. For example, the Romans 12 gifts
can be broken down into verbal and non-verbal gifts. What if, in a
certain situation, God wills and moves the Holy Spirit upon a Gift of
Service person to give a prophetic utterance. See the application?
|I guess the biggest piece I'm not getting is how this table or the
|distinctions made by it will eliminate 'charismania' and bring order to the
|church.
This answers part of the question:
|>ignorance of Spiritual "things" causes:
|>
|> 1. Abuse of Manifestations
|> 2. Fear " "
|> 3. Disuse " "
|> 4. Unbelief " "
When Christians understand the organization in the context of God's
Word, you won't see so much abuse. You will have less cessationists.
You won't have people asking "Brother, did you get the gift yet?" You
won't have Christians following the experiences of 1 Corinthians 12,
thinking that they are gifts when they are not. Instead, the
experiences will be following the Christians as they do the Lord's work
in the body of Christ as given to them per Romans 12.
Mike
|
| 74.29 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Tue Apr 29 1997 19:57 | 10 |
| re .28
When Christians understand the organization in the context of God's
Word, you won't see so much abuse.
Actually, I get alarmed when Christians say they "totally" understand the
gifts...that bothers me more than questionable manifestations.
Jill
|
| 74.30 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Tue Apr 29 1997 20:46 | 1 |
| Jeff, does the Westminister Confession have a section on this?
|
| 74.31 | | ALFSS1::BENSONA | Eternal Weltanschauung | Wed Apr 30 1997 16:47 | 5 |
| > Jeff, does the Westminister Confession have a section on this?
A section on what, Mike?
jeff
|
| 74.32 | gifts of the Holy Spirit | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Wed Apr 30 1997 17:12 | 1 |
| The topic title, Jeff.
|
| 74.33 | food for thought | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Thu May 15 1997 16:46 | 13 |
| So did anyone pick up "Counterfeit Revival" yet (the latest from Hank
Hanegraaff)? He's gonna be at our church in a couple weeks so I'm
going to get a signed copy.
btw - on Wednesday's "Bible Answer Man" show, an ex-Wiccan, now
Christian called in to talk about Hank's latest book. Her name was Meg
and she called from South Barre, MA. Her mother was a witch and raised
her and her sister that way. She became a Christian as an adult,
renouncing her past. She claimed the "shaking" going on in Pensacola
is used by Wiccans in the exact same manner. It is something Wiccans go
through whenever they need to achieve an altered state of consciousness.
Mike
|
| 74.34 | Slaying in the Spirit & Hinduism | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Thu May 15 1997 17:03 | 9 |
| Re: Jim reading "Counterfeit Revival"
Jim, maybe you can share some with us when you get to the "Slain in the
Spirit" section. I've heard some evidence that this is also common
practice in eastern religions (i.e., Hinduism) and would like to know
if Hank's research touches on this.
thanks,
Mike
|
| 74.35 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Give the world a smile each day | Thu May 15 1997 17:05 | 8 |
|
OK..I've been reading about "stuck in the spirit" and "dumb in the spirit"..
Jim
|
| 74.36 | | PAULKM::WEISS | To speak the Truth, you must first live it | Thu May 15 1997 17:15 | 20 |
| >She claimed the "shaking" going on in Pensacola
> is used by Wiccans in the exact same manner. It is something Wiccans go
> through whenever they need to achieve an altered state of consciousness.
You realize of course that this proves absolutely nothing. The question is:
are the Christians doing something that Satan initiated, or is Satan
imitating something that God has initiated.
Wiccans and Satan worshipers pray. Should we not pray? They use candles in
their ceremonies. Should we not use candles? Satan can replicate some
miracles. Should we reject all miracles as satanic?
I realize that most churches and most Christians do not experience things
like this. And I realize that some Wiccans DO experience things like this.
To go from there to making a statement that such things are not from God and
are from Satan is a logical leap that the facts as shown simply do not
warrant.
Paul
|
| 74.37 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Thu May 15 1997 17:24 | 24 |
| |You realize of course that this proves absolutely nothing. The question is:
|are the Christians doing something that Satan initiated, or is Satan
|imitating something that God has initiated.
If Satan is imitating something that God has initiated, then it would
have Biblical precedent. The current movement doesn't so the former
must be closer to the truth. Is it Satan, the flesh, or some
metaphysical mumbo jumbo? The latter 2 are probably closer to the
truth.
|Wiccans and Satan worshipers pray. Should we not pray? They use candles in
|their ceremonies. Should we not use candles? Satan can replicate some
|miracles. Should we reject all miracles as satanic?
There are differences between us and them in who we pray to, what we
pray about, and the miracles God performs. There are no differences
between laughing, shaking, and slaying in the 'spirit' as witnessed in
the church today and as performed by Wiccans and Hindus.
|To go from there to making a statement that such things are not from God and
|are from Satan is a logical leap that the facts as shown simply do not
|warrant.
The deeper you dig in comparing, the more logical it is.
|
| 74.38 | RE: .36 | AROLED::PARKER | | Thu May 15 1997 18:29 | 17 |
| What are we trying to prove here? We are called to "believe not every
spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God."
If we hold these "Pensacola/Brownsville/Toronto experiences" up to the
light of God's Word and find neither precedent nor implicit support for
many manifestations, but do see striking similarity, if not exact
likeness, in the occult, then why would concluding such questionable
experiences as not of God be deemed an illogical leap?
Rejecting some, even most, particular "Pensacola/Brownsville/Toronto"
manifestations is NOT rejecting ALL miracles.
There is so much richness and depth of God's work to be seen in
compliance with Scripture that we MUST question that which goes beyond
explicitly revealed Truth.
/Wayne
|
| 74.39 | My $0.02 | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun May 18 1997 13:39 | 39 |
| Hi,
I just want to echo my $0.02 here.
The idea of growling, or laughing uncontrollably, or shaking
uncontrollably, is totally unlike my personal thoughts of
what Christlikeness is.
I do not see how any of the above are a deeper manifestation
of agape. I don't see how they testify to loving as Jesus
loves. In my heart, I see nothing of God in it. Nothing.
Ultimately, I believe it is a counterfeit. The counterfeit,
I believe, lies in having a false appetite for spiritual things.
The basis of the appetite is feeling/emotional oriented. It
is not "the love of Christ constraineth me."
The deception is in believing that the pursuit of righteousness
is one's ultimate desire when that final desire is really a love
for good feeling.
When the good feeling is stripped from the experience, then the
destitution of lacking a love for the truth will be realized.
Righteousness is desired, not as an intermediate goal to another
end, but as an all in all. Its everything. Good feeling or bad.
I believe that with this type of phenomenon, righteousness is
an intermediate desire and thus is not really the heart's desire.
It is a means to another end - feeling good. The basis of its
desire is not itself (which is selfless), but as a means to some-
thing else (which is selfish).
If it is an intermediate desire for another ultimate desire, the
destitution of the heart will be realized when that final desire
is removed from the experience. Then the lacking of a selfless,
Christlike motivation will be painfully realized.
Tony
|
| 74.40 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Mon May 19 1997 14:39 | 19 |
| I heard a sermon once where a Pastor told about one particular sunday.
After the service that day they made an altar call. He said that he
strongly felt that there was someone that wasn't coming forward that
needed to. He said he made the offer again and again but this person
didn't come forward. He said that normally he would have stopped but
this day he felt strongly that this man really needed to come forward.
Then he said that he felt very strongly that he was supposed to get down
on all fours and crawl around like a dog. He was a rather gutsy man and
actually did so. Then this man in the congregation started crying and
came forward. Afterwards this man said that he felt like God was
calling him but he didn't want to respond. So he told God that God
would have to convice him and he asked for something totally outragious
as a sign. In particular he wanted that respectable nicely dressed
pastor to start acting like a dog.
I don't know it its true, but thats what he said.
Jill
|
| 74.41 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Mon May 19 1997 16:33 | 9 |
| Amen, Tony!
Part of the body of Christ is too caught up in pursuing things that
aren't even gifts. Another sect of the church is caught up with
manifestations that aren't even Biblical. The church needs to get back
to doing the Lord's word per Romans 12. Then and only then will we
start seeing the true manifestations of I Cor. 12 follow the believers.
Right now, we have far too many believers chasing after the
manifestations. It should be the other way around.
|
| 74.42 | Oops, I Said That 'Feel' Word! | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon May 19 1997 16:46 | 5 |
| It sure feels good to agree once in awhile, huh Hike?
:-)
Tony
|