Conference yukon::christian

    Below is the Westminster Confession of Faith chapter and Scripture
    proofs addressing the perseverence of the saints.
    
    While this may not directly answer your question, it may make you more
    convinced of the positive Biblical proofs of "eternal security"
    from which you can then measure those troubling negative passages.
    
    It is important to know when reading the Westminster Confession that it
    presents biblical doctrine in a logical fashion, beginning with the Bible
    as the infallible Word of God from which all doctrines must arise and by
    which they must be measured then moves on to build a reasonable,
    logical biblical framework with which to understand the Bible's major
    themes and with which to establish principles for addressing issues not
    directly treated in the Bible.  It is in effect a summarized but
    systematic theology.
    
    jeff 
    
Chapter XVII

Of the Perseverance of the Saints

I. They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called,
and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall
away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein
to the end, and be eternally saved.1

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free
will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing
from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;2 upon the
efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,3 the
abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,4 and the
nature of the covenant of grace:5 from all which arises also the
certainty and infallibility thereof.6

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and
of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and
the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous
sins;7 and, for a time, continue therein:8 whereby they incur God's
displeasure,9 and grieve His Holy Spirit,10 come to be deprived of
some measure of their graces and comforts,11 have their hearts
hardened,12 and their consciences wounded;13 hurt and scandalize
others,14 and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.15

_______________________________
1 PHI 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that
he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it
until the day of Jesus Christ. 2PE 1:10 Wherefore the
rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling
and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall
never fall. JOH 10:28 And I give unto them eternal
life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any
man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which
gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able
to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 1JO 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his
seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he
is born of God. 1PE 1:5 Who are kept by the power of
God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed
in the last time. 9 Receiving the end of your faith,
even the salvation of your souls.
2 2TI 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred,
saying that the resurrection is past already; and
overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the
foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The
Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one
that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
JER 31:3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me,
saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting
love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
3 HEB 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified
through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once
for all. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for
ever them that are sanctified. 20 Now the God of
peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord
Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the
blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect
in every good work to do his will, working in you that
which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus
Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. HEB
9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by
his own blood he entered in once into the holy place,
having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if
the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an
heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the
purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the
blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit
offered himself without spot to God, purge your
conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new
testament, that by means of death, for the redemption
of the transgressions that were under the first
testament, they which are called might receive the
promise of eternal inheritance. ROM 8:33 Who shall lay
any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that
justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ
that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is
even at the right hand of God, who also maketh
intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the
love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or
persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or
sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed
all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the
slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more
than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am
persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels,
nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present,
nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any
other creature, shall be able to separate us from the
love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. JOH
17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are
in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep
through thine own name those whom thou hast given me,
that they may be one, as we are. 24 Father, I will
that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me
where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou
hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the
foundation of the world. LUK 22:32 But I have prayed
for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art
converted, strengthen thy brethren. HEB 7:25 Wherefore
he is able also to save them to the uttermost that
come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make
intercession for them.
4 JOH 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he
shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide
with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom
the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not,
neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth
with you, and shall be in you. 1JO 2:27 But the
anointing which ye have received of him abideth in
you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as
the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is
truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you,
ye shall abide in him. 1JO 3:9 Whosoever is born of
God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in
him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
5 JER 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant
with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do
them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts,
that they shall not depart from me.
6 JOH 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and
they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck
them out of my hand. 2TH 3:3 But the Lord is faithful,
who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 1JO
2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us;
for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have
continued with us: but they went out, that they might
be made manifest that they were not all of us.
7 MAT 26:70 But he denied before them all, saying,
I know not what thou sayest. 72 And again he denied
with an oath, I do not know the man. 74 Then began he
to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And
immediately the cock crew.
8 PSA 51 (the title) To the chief muscian, A psalm
of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after
he had gone in to Bathsheba. 51:14 Deliver me from
bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and
my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
9 ISA 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and
worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy
ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in
those is continuance, and we shall be saved. 7 And
there is none that calleth upon thy name, that
stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou
hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us,
because of our iniquities. 9 Be not wroth very sore, O
Lord, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see,
we beseech thee, we are all thy people. 2SA 11:27 And
when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her
to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a
son. But the thing that David had done displeased the
Lord.
10 EPH 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,
whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
11 PSA 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that
the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right
spirit within me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy
salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. REV 2:4
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because
thou hast left thy first love. SON 5:2 I sleep, but my
heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that
knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my
dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew,
and my locks with the drops of the night. 3 I have put
off my coat; how shall I put it on? I have washed my
feet; how shall I defile them? 4 My beloved put in his
hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved
for him. 6 I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had
withdrawn himself, and was gone: my soul failed when
he spake: I sought him, but I could not find him; I
called him, but he gave me no answer.
12 ISA 63:17 O Lord, why hast thou made us to err
from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear?
Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine
inheritance. MAR 6:52 For they considered not the
miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened.
16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they
sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief
and hardness of heart, because they believed not them
which had seen him after he was risen.
13 PSA 32:3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old
through my roaring all the day long. 4 For day and
night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is
turned into the drought of summer. Selah. 51:8 Make me
to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou
hast broken may rejoice.
14 2SA 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast
given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to
blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall
surely die.
15 PSA 89:31 If they break my statutes, and keep not
my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their
transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with
stripes. 1CO 11:32 But when we are judged, we are
chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned
with the world.

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    Oh, Mike, to answer your question directly, the way I apply the verse
    in question to eternal security is that I generally don't.  The Bible
    is so clear in its teaching of the perseverance of the saints, based
    upon the nature of God, not the nature of man, that anything which
    might suggest otherwise has to be understood in light of the clear
    teaching.
    
    I believe the passage in question speaks to the issue of the visible
    church and the invisible church.  The visible church is made up of
    believers and unbelievers, the invisible church only believers. Many of
    those who are associated with the visible church but are not believers
    will cut their association in favor of other religions in the latter
    days.
    
    It is also appropriate to acknowledge that "the faith" is not only
    actual faith in Christ but also a body of doctrines to believe which 
    was "once and for all delivered to the saints" and which must be
    protected, preached, believed, and practiced by the true Christian.
    
    I suspect the answer to your question lies in understanding the two
    concepts above.
    
    jeff

    re .0
    
    Hi Mike,
    
    I would like to hear what you learned.
    
    
    Jill
    

    Would it be that they weren't truly saved to being with?

    |    I would like to hear what you learned.
    
    Okay Jill.  2 Peter 2 has the shortest explanation.
    
2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of
 righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy
 commandment delivered unto them.
    
    This is a verse that I heard a lot in sermons growing up.  However,
    when you don't dive into the Word in an expository manner, you miss a
    lot of context.  The main question to ask yourself here is "Who is the
    'they' or 'them' in this verse?"  If you trace the pronouns back
    through chapter 2, you will find the answer in 2:1
    
2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall
 be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,
 even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift
 destruction.

    False prophets and teachers.  That is who verse 21 is talking about. 
    It is not talking about Christians.  A lot of Arminians quote verse
    2:21 without thinking about who is being talked about.  
    
    Most of the NT letters are written TO *CHRISTIANS* (i.e., people
    already saved!) so that is something that needs to be seriously 
    considered when discussing passages.  This fact has even more impact when 
    discussing the few Arminian passages in the book of Hebrews.
    
    When you consider all of the above application for 2 Peter 2:21, it is
    easy to see that it is not talking about Christians losing their
    salvation.
    
    God Bless,
    Mike

    What are the passages in Hebrews that you are referring to, as the
    ones the Arminians quote?
    
    
    Jill
    

Hi, Mike.

Actually, my understanding of 1Ti.4:1 is essentially the same as Jeff's.  You
need to include vs.2&3 for a more complete characterization of those who "depart
from the faith."

"Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath
created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the
truth."

Now, I would include the following verses to fill out the discussion:

Jesus said, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall
shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if possible, they shall deceive the
very elect." (Mt.24:24)

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for <the day of Christ> shall not come
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the
son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called
God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God...with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in
them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, they they
might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that
they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the
truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2Th.2:3-12)

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist
shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the
last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been
of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be
made manifest that they were not all of us." (1Jn.2:18&19)

So, the question now becomes what is the faith from which some will depart?  The
Apostle Paul exhorts the faithful whom "God hath from the beginning chosen to
salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" to
"stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word,
or our epistle."  Moreover, Paul told Timothy "that in the last day perilous
times shall come" and "evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse,
deceiving and being deceived," and said, "continue thou in the things which thou
hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou has learned; And
that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make
thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." (2Ti.3)

Obviously, those who depart from the faith were never "sealed with that holy
Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption
of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory" because they never
first trusted in Christ "after that they heard the word of truth, the gospel of
our salvation." (Ep.1:13&14)  In other words, "the word preached did not profit
them, because they were not united by faith to them that heard." (He.4:2)

Jeff is exactly right:  There is a visible church, and the invisible church.
Those who do not believe the truth will be manifest by their departure "from the
faith."  Note that Scripture does not say depart from THEIR faith, rather from
THE faith.  Very important missing letters, "ir" after "the."  THE faith was
never theirs!

/Wayne

    I noticed that it says "the faith" and not "their faith" also.
    
    The verse that talks to me about this is:
    
    Romans 10:9
    That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in
    your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
    
    You must believe in your heart not just in your mouth. But who can
    judge man's hearts?  Not I.
    
    
    Jill
      

People continue to make this issue way too complicated.  The Bible affirms
both that we are completely predestined and have complete free will.  Both
Calvin and Arminius were correct.  They were looking at two sides of the same
coin, and all the debate on this through the centuries has been futile.

Why not accept what God has to say at face value and leave the intellectual
reconciliation to Him?  It is reasonable to do so because full intellectual
reconciliation requires a mental comprehension of both the temporal and the
eternal realms.  We can only humanly comprehend the temporal, yet through
faith we take hold of the eternal, even if we cannot fully comprehend it.

Any viewpoint which tries to find a "happy medium" between predestination
and free will compromises God's word.  Don't compromise.  Accept that both
are 100% true.  Believe God at His word.

I would be willing to discuss this further via verbal conversation with 
anyone who still struggles with the issue.

      Hi Garth,
    
        Peter says that election (predestination) is according to 
        foreknowledge.  This connotates the idea that scripture defines
        predestination not as God forcing man to do this thing or that
        thing, but as being according to God knowing the future.  By the
        way, Wayne quoted another passage (was it in Corinthians?) that
        said the same thing.
    
        Philemon 8-9,14
        Therefore, though I might be very bold in Christ to command 
        you what is fitting,
        yet for love's sake I rather appeal to you - being such a one
        as Paul, the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ - 
        
        But without your consent I wanted to do nothing, that your 
        good deed might not be by compulsion, as it were, but
        voluntary.
    
        Paul seems to describe the attribute of APPEAL rather than
        compulsion (i.e. fixing our wills) on the basis of what love
        is (for love's sake).  Paul, being a prisoner of Christ, echoes
        the heart of God as he is very much molded after the Divine
        pattern by this time.
    
        Anyway, thats my take.  Election is according to foreknowledge
        and why not just accept a scriptural definition for what it is.
    
        As far as OSAS, I think the only thing that holds us up is the
        word and the only thing that keeps us from being shaken is the
        word.  And by word, I mean that which has been perceived by the
        heart and received by faith so that it is implanted and (as such)
        has begun a good work.
    
        There seem to be texts that point to OSAS and others that do not.
    
        From a view of simply what 'keeps' a person, I am not convinced 
        that if a person has received an extremely minute amount of the
        word, that this word will necessarily keep him.  Lucifer left
        while having a hefty amount of grace known to him.
    
        I am convinced that the more the word is implanted, the harder
        it would seem to be to turn one's back on the Lord.
    
        I acknowledge a lot of uncertainty regarding this doctrine, but
        (for me) I just want to know more and more the consistent and
        unchanging love of God and I suspect that it would be very hard
        for me to leave with that kind of revelation implanted in my
        heart.
    
    						Tony
    
    						Tony
    
        

The "Hebrews verses" are probably Heb 6:4-6, which say that once someone has
'tasted the heavenly gift' of the Holy spirit, if they fall away they cannot
then be saved.

I'm with Garth on this one - both are true.  My mind can't really fully hold
that paradox, but that is a statement about the limitations of my mind, not
about limitations on Truth.

Paul

|The "Hebrews verses" are probably Heb 6:4-6, which say that once someone has
|'tasted the heavenly gift' of the Holy spirit, if they fall away they cannot
|then be saved.
    
    Actually salvation isn't even mentioned in that passage, since it was
    addressed to Jewish Christians.  This is key in properly interpreting
    the verse.  It was written to Christians (i.e., those saved).  It says
    "renew to repentance" not "renew to salvation."  God's Word never says
    you must be born again and again and again and again.
    
6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted
 of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they
 crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
    
    Some historical and cultural context helps here too (I've seen this
    information in some commentaries [Wiersbe might be one] and it has been
    taught by CC pastors while teaching the book of Hebrews).  When this was
    written, temple priests were trying to identify (and persecute) Jewish
    Christians by handing out receipts for those participating in temple
    sacrifices.  Some Jewish Christians, out of fear of persecution, were
    still participating in these sacrifices.  As we know, and as Hebrews
    explains, there is only 1 sacrifice and it has already been made by
    Christ.  No more sacrifice is needed for atonement.  That is what this
    passage is talking about.  It is not about losing your salvation.
    
    regards,
    Mike