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| 35.1 | (Continued) | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Fri Feb 14 1997 13:35 | 401 |
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The Toronto Controvery - Disturbing New Facts From History
by Andrew Strom
(Editor, New Zealand Prophetic Revival Bulletin)
Over the past few years, the movement known as the "Toronto Bles-
sing" has swept through many churches worldwide, particularly in
the Western nations. This movement has brought with it some rath-
er 'strange' spiritual manifestations, which have caused quite a
bit of controversy in the church. The purpose of this article is
to examine the FACTS and the historical data related to this iss-
ue, in as straight-forward a way as possible. I have been study-
ing Revival and Reformation history now for over twelve years,
and I hope that this will help me to provide an informed and
factual perspective.
As is now well-known, the Toronto Airport Vineyard church (home
of the 'Toronto Blessing') was finally expelled from the interna-
tional Vineyard movement in December 1995. This expulsion came
after what had apparently been twelve months of repeated warnings
given to the Toronto church by John Wimber and the Vineyard Asso-
ciation.
I have to say on a personal level, before going any further, that
having witnessed the 'Toronto' phenomena for myself, and having
spoken to many people who have experienced it,- right from the
outset I have personally been deeply disturbed by much of what
I have seen and heard. However, it is time now to take a look at
what history has to say about such phenomena.
As many who have studied Revivals will know, it is important to
remember that not only have there been many genuine Revivals down
through history, but also many "counterfeit" movements as well (a
number of which have resulted in quasi-`Christian' sects that are
still with us today). Even some of the most powerful true Re-
vivals have eventually been infiltrated (or in some cases, "hi-
jacked"), through the devil managing to flood them with excesses
and demonic manifestations, etc. Many of the great Revivalists
came across such counterfeits on a regular basis, and wrote warn-
ings against them. As John Wesley said: "At the first, revival is
true and pure, but after a few weeks watch for counterfeits."
These false or demonic manifestations have often followed a very
distinctive pattern. And alarmingly, I have to say that they have
often resembled 'Toronto' very closely indeed (as we shall see).
The following is an extract from a century-old book by T.W.
Caskey, in which he recalls many of the religious happenings in
the Southern states of America in the early 1800's. This was the
period when many huge `Camp Meetings' were held in the South, ac-
companied by unusual religious phenomena (which they called `re-
vival'): "Some would fall prostrate and lie helpless for hours at
a time... The whole congregation by some inexplicable nervous ac-
tion would sometimes be thrown into side-splitting convulsions of
laughter and when it started, no power could check or control it
until it ran its course. At other times the nervous excitement
set the muscles to twitching and jerking at a fearful rate and
finally settle down to regular, straight-forward dancing. Like
the `Holy Laugh' it was simply ungovernable until it ran its
course. When a man started laughing, dancing, shouting or jerk-
ing, it was impossible for him to stop until exhausted nature
broke down in a death-like swoon..." The same writer goes on to
tell how eventually a few preachers began to question whether
such manifestations really were the work of the Holy Spirit.
Gradually, people began to `search the Scriptures' and `test the
spirits' a lot more than they had been, and these rather
`bizarre' manifestations began to die out.
Another historian has written of the great Camp Meetings of the
eighteenth century (particularly in Kentucky) that crowds would
often "go into trances, writhe on the ground and even bark like
dogs". As is well-known to many who have studied Revivals, such
excesses and counterfeit manifestations have often flooded in
particularly towards the end of a true Revival, when the devil
has been trying to get in and completely destroy or discredit it.
This is precisely what happened with the 1904 Welsh Revival (as
you will see if you read "War on the Saints" by Jessie Penn-Lewis
and Evan Roberts - a disturbing book which probably places too
much emphasis on the devil, but vividly describes many counter-
feit manifestations very similar to what we are seeing today.
Such counterfeits are also examined in Watchman Nee's "The Spiri-
tual Man").
A number of `Toronto' writers have implied that many old-time Re-
vivalists such as John Wesley, Charles Finney and Jonathan Ed-
wards would be quite happy with such manifestations. This is far
from the truth. I have studied the lives of these men, and all of
them were strong "REPENTANCE" preachers who were very suspicious
of any `bizarre' goings-on. When people fell down in their meet-
ings, it was almost always under tremendous distress and CONVIC-
TION OF SIN. This is very different from Toronto.
The great Revivalist John Wesley, who came across many examples
of counterfeit manifestations in his years of Revival ministry,
wrote of one particular occasion: "God suffered Satan to teach
them better. Both of them were suddenly seized in the same manner
as the rest, and laughed whether they would or no, almost without
ceasing. This they continued for two days, a spectacle to all;
and were then, upon prayer made for them, delivered in a moment."
Charles Finney wrote, warning of the dangers of simply `yielding'
to strange impulses or impressions: "God's Spirit leads men by
the intelligence, and not through mere impressions... I have
known some cases where persons have rendered themselves highly
ridiculous, have greatly injured their own souls, and the cause
of God, by giving themselves up to an enthusiastic and fanatical
following of impressions."
And Jonathan Edwards wrote, concerning the supposedly `heavenly'
trances that members of his congregation were entering into under
the ministry of Samuel Buelle (a visiting preacher): "But when
the people were raised to this height, Satan took the advantage,
and his interposition in many instances soon became very appar-
ent; and a great deal of caution and pains were found necessary
to keep the people, many of them from running wild." As Frank
Bartleman (of the 1906 `Azusa Street' Revival) said: "Many are
willing to seek `power' from every battery they can lay their
hands on, in order to perform miracles... A true `Pentecost'
will produce a mighty conviction for sin, a turning to God.
False manifestations produce only excitement and wonder... Any
work that exalts the Holy Ghost or the `gifts' above Jesus will
finally land up in fanaticism." Does it sound like these men
welcomed `bizarre' manifestations to you? Certainly not! They
knew how to discern what was of God and what was not.
In mid-1995, respected international Bible teacher Derek Prince
put out a tape in which he made some very strong statements about
certain aspects of the Toronto movement. Like him, I would like
to state categorically that I believe that humans manifesting an-
imal noises or animal movements is not of God, but rather of the
devil. (In fact, he described on the tape how he had seen many
such animal manifestations during demonic rituals he had wit-
nessed in Africa). And what about the bodily distortions and the
`jerking' that have also become associated with today's Toronto
movement? Is it God who desires to distort the bodies of His peo-
ple so that they look like sufferers of Cerebral Palsy, Epilepsy,
Parkinson's Disease, etc? (Repetitive `jerking' is also seen reg-
ularly in many mental hospitals - ask any psychiatric nurse). I
have to ask the question here: Whose work does all this sound
like to you?
Alarmingly, there are also many exact similarities between the
`Toronto' experience and the demonic manifestations found
throughout the New Age movement and also in many pagan religions.
A number of Indian gurus, such as Bagwhan Shree Rajneesh and Ra-
makrishna, have had the power to transfer a state of rapturous
bliss to their followers merely by touching them. In the case of
Ramakrishna, these states were often accompanied by uncontrol-
lable laughter or weeping. Swami Baba Muktananda also had this
power, according to a former devotee, and the resulting `Kundali-
ni' manifestations included uncontrollable laughing, roaring,
barking, crying, shaking, etc. Some of his followers also became
mute or unconscious, while many felt themselves infused with
feelings of tremendous joy, peace and love.
All such experiences have been based on "yielding" oneself to the
power working through these gurus. Is it any coincidence that the
manifestations associated with these demonic `Kundalini' cults
are almost identical to those of Toronto? Could it be that the
same `spirits' are at work? When Yan Xin, a Chinese `Qigong'
spiritual Master, gave a talk to a crowd in San Francisco in
1991, the San Francisco Chronicle reported that many in the crowd
began to experience what Yan called "spontaneous movements". He
told his audience, "Those who are sensitive might start having
some strong physical sensations - or start laughing or crying.
Don't worry. This is quite normal." Likewise, the demonic "minis-
try" of renowned eighteenth-century occultic healer Franz Mesmer,
was also known to produce many similar manifestations (falling
down, jerking, convulsions, strange grunts and cries, hysterical
laughter, etc).
To me it seems beyond dispute that there has been a powerful
alien spirit let loose in many churches for some considerable
time. Just because the Toronto manifestations have been cloaked
in "Christian" terminology does not mean that they are from God.
The fact is that such manifestations are found nowhere in the
Bible, but rather right through the New Age movement. Surely this
fact alone should have rung alarm bells? If these are the `last
days' - the days of "great deception" and `lying signs and won-
ders', then surely we ought to be a little more careful about
what we introduce into God's church?
Many Christians who have become involved with Toronto have as-
sumed that it "must be of God" because it often results in `inner
healing' or other spiritual experiences. However, such occur-
rences are certainly not proof that this movement is of God. In
fact, the devil specializes in providing virtually identical ex-
periences in occult and New Age groups right around the world.
And as is well-known, "inner healing" has always been one of the
very major emphases of today's New Age movement (while it cannot
be found in the Bible). Such experiences are obviously something
that Satan finds it very easy to manufacture, especially when he
is given the opportunity on such a grand scale. As the Bible
clearly states, the devil will gladly disguise himself as an "an-
gel of light" in order to deceive Christians (2 Cor 11:14). How-
ever, in saying all of this, I do want to make it clear also that
I believe that God has DELIBERATELY ALLOWED this deception to
sweep through at this time, to "test" His church.
One of the most obviously "New Age" aspects of Toronto has been
the emphasis on `switching off your mind', getting your mind "out
of the way", yielding yourself unthinkingly to the spirit that is
operating, etc. I tell you, this exact practise is used all over
the world to open up New Age devotees to demonic influence. It is
dangerous in the extreme. The Bible makes it clear that demonic
spirits are well capable of masquerading as the "Holy Spirit".
This is why the apostle John wrote: "Beloved, do not believe ev-
ery spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God"
(1 Jn 4:1). I am afraid I cannot agree with the idea of `direct-
ing' the Holy Spirit or proclaiming "Come, Holy Spirit!" To me,
such unscriptural practises are bound to lead to deception sooner
or later. But the concept of just `switching off your mind' and
yielding to whatever spiritual impulses come upon you, surely has
to be the most deadly practise of all.
As Jessie Penn-Lewis wrote (in conjunction with Welsh Revival
leader Evan Roberts): "... these demons hover round the soul, and
make strange suggestions to the mind of something odd, or out-
landish, or contrary to common sense or decent taste. They make
these suggestions under the profession of being the Holy Ghost.
They fan the emotions, and produce a strange, fictitious exhila-
ration, which is simply their bait to get into some faculty of
the soul... another person said he felt like rolling on the
floor, and groaning and pulling the chairs around, but he dis-
tinctly perceived that the impulse to do so had something wild in
it; and a touch of self display contrary to the gentleness and
sweetness of Jesus; and, as quick as he saw it was an attack of a
false spirit, he was delivered. But another man had the same im-
pulse, and fell down groaning and roaring, beating the floor with
his hands and feet, and the demon entered into him as an angel of
light, and got him to think that his conduct was of the Holy
Ghost, and it became a regular habit in the meetings he attended,
until he would ruin every religious meeting he was in... The ef-
fects of being influenced by this sort of demon is manifold, and
plainly legible to a well-poised mind. They cause people to run
off into things that are odd and foolish, unreasonable and inde-
cent..."
The above authors also make the following very crucial statement
in the same book: "The false conception of `surrender' as yield-
ing the body to supernatural power, with the mind ceasing to act,
is the HIGHEST SUBTLETY OF THE ENEMY." Surely no-one who is read-
ing this can still be in any doubt as to what spiritual `source'
the `Toronto' movement comes from?
It is well-known throughout Christendom that the Bible speaks of
the `last days' as being a time of great deception and apostasy,
and it is obvious from the Scriptures that much of this will
arise from WITHIN THE CHURCH, so as to deceive the Christians.
(See Mt 24, etc). The Apostle Paul wrote that, "in the last days
PERILOUS TIMES WILL COME. For men shall be lovers of their own
selves... lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God" (2 Tim
3:1-4). And, "the Spirit speaks expressly that in the latter
times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to SEDUCING
SPIRITS, and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim 4:1). Surely, as we
have seen, we are indeed living today in such `perilous times'.
There have been several dreams and visions given to NZ prophets
and intercessors about the Toronto movement. In one particularly
powerful dream given to an Auckland man many months before the
term "Toronto Blessing" was even heard of here, he was shown that
there would be TWO revivals. (This was the same man who was
also given the open vision of the Bride of Christ described in a
previous article). In this dream of the "TWO REVIVALS", he found
himself in a large auditorium full of people. He noticed that
many of those down the front of the meeting were FALLING DOWN
LAUGHING AND CRYING, etc, and the words that were clearly spoken
to him to describe what he was seeing were: "LAODICEAN REVIVAL".
He was then seated with the `little' people in the auditorium,
who had not become really "caught up" in this falling and laugh-
ing, etc. And as he sat there, these `little' people were steadi-
ly drawn away from this `Laodicean' scenario, until there was a
yawning gulf between them and those who were still "partying on"
at the front of the hall. Suddenly, thousands of young people
burst out all around these little people, and they began to min-
ister to them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. The prophet
knew that this was the beginning of the true Revival. Glory to
God!
It is my belief that in many ways the Toronto experience has been
the perfect deception for today's Laodicean church: It cost noth-
ing, it was "instant" and convenient, it conferred spiritual
blessings, `touches' and experiences without any need for convic-
tion of sin, deep repentance or `taking up the cross', and best-
of-all it gave a flagging, powerless church some new "signs" to
prove that `all was well' after all. The real issue that lies at
the heart of this whole controversy is one that revolves around
the very character of God Himself. For it is obvious that we are
being asked to choose between at least two "Gods" here.
On the one hand we have Toronto's version of "God" - a being who
lives to bring `touches' and bodily sensations upon his people,
who loves to "party" with them - to `loosen them up' so that they
cast off all restraint and do foolish things that they would
never normally do. Many of these touches may appear to outside
observers to be `ugly' or even revolting and frightening (similar
to asylum-type mental or drug disorders, etc), but, hey, let's
just get our mind out of the way, relax and enjoy it all! Who
cares if it looks or sounds completely `demonic' (animal noises,
hysterical laughter, bizarre jerking, etc), so long as it feels
good and seems to heal all those past `hurts'? To me, this is the
very essence of the touchy-feely "Laodicean" view of God - a
`God' made entirely in their own image, and for their own con-
venience. Love without responsibility. Mercy without judgement.
A permissive, "Santa Claus" God - perfect for the shallow,
pleasure-loving age in which we live.
On the other hand, there is the God of the Bible: Yes, He is a
God of love, but also of justice and of judgement. Yes, He is a
God of mercy, but also of war and of vengeance,- waiting patient-
ly for the hour when His enemies will be delivered into His hand,
so that He can cast them forever into a living hell. Yes, He is a
God of liberty, but He is also a jealous God, who visits the sins
of the fathers onto the third and fourth generation of those who
hate Him. Yes, He is a God of compassion, but He is also a God of
glorious majesty, might and power. And above all, He is a God of
HOLINESS, who HATES SIN so much that He created a lake of fire in
which to imprison all who have given themselves over to it. And
I tell you now, He is not a God who could in any way be represen-
ted by a movement involving animal noises, drunken foolishness,
hyena-like laughter, or ugly epileptic-type `jerking' amongst His
people.
This is why Toronto was such a good `test' for the Laodicean
church. And frankly, it is my belief that this Laodicean revival
has exposed today's lukewarm church for what she really is - a
sitting duck, completely prone to the most obvious deception from
the enemy - a "happiness club", still desperate for feel-good
touches and blessings after all these years.
Obviously, one aspect that has been particularly alarming about
the Toronto movement has been the tendency to simply abandon the
practise of `testing' spiritual experiences and new teachings
against the Scriptures. The Bible tells us to "test all things",
and of course there is the well-known verse: "All scripture is
inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, FOR
CORRECTION, and for training in righteousness" (2 Tim 3:16). But
how can the Scriptures be used for `correction' if we choose to
"explain away" the need for Scriptural proof of our experiences
and teachings, etc? If we don't use the Scriptures to `test'
things any more, aren't we opening the door to every heresy,
false doctrine or demonic experience in existence? (As history
clearly demonstrates). This "casting off" of the authority of
Scripture, and even of good, old-fashioned common sense, I have
personally found to be amongst the most disturbing aspects of the
whole `Toronto' affair.
In saying all of this about Toronto, however, I do not want to
give the impression that I am opposed to every kind of `unusual'
spiritual occurrence. God Himself often does unusual things in
times of Revival. But there is a certain `character' about them
that stamp them as being from Him. For instance, tremendous con-
viction (which is very common in true Revivals) will often bring
extreme distress over sin (wailing, weeping, etc), `trembling'
with Godly fear, people falling face-down before God, etc. At the
same time, the awesome presence of God will often cause those who
have experienced His cleansing and forgiveness to be filled with
indescribable joy and thanksgiving to God, resulting in demon-
strative, unrestrained worship and adoration of Him.
However, I believe that it will be very important in the coming
Revival for the leaders to stress that true worship involves
"GIVING OUT" to God, not expecting `touches' or blessings "FROM"
Him all the time. True worship is an act of pure and holy `sacri-
fice' to God. This is a very important principle. It is usually
when people begin to seek after `touches' or experiences from
God, rather than seeking Him for His own sake, that counterfeit
manifestations or soulish excesses begin to enter in.
Obviously, as well as Godly sorrow, holy fear and great joy, we
can also expect a genuine outpouring of the Holy Spirit to bring
all of the `gifts' of the Spirit into everyday Christian life:
Powerful healings and miracles, deliverance, word of knowledge,
tongues, interpretation, prophecy, etc. It is also probable that
there will be people genuinely "falling down under the power of
God" (not that we should ever `seek' such experiences), visions,
dreams, angelic visitations, "signs in the heavens", etc. Of
course, a large number of these things can be easily counterfeit-
ed by the devil, so it will be important to have godly leaders
around, who will know how to step in (without being too `heavy'
about it) if things start to get out of hand. The emphasis of the
coming Revival will be on purity, holiness and evangelism, not
the seeking after of `experiences'. And of course, everything
will be centred around Christ. But it is very important that we
do not allow the devil's counterfeits to "scare us off" every
kind of unusual spiritual occurrence, otherwise we could miss out
on what God is doing also.
As I said at the beginning, in forming my opinions about `Toron-
to' I have not just stood afar off, making judgements about this
movement from a distance. Rather, I have personally witnessed
these manifestations for myself, as well as speaking with many
people who have seen and experienced them also. But none of this
has changed my mind. In fact, every ounce of discernment within
me has been crying out right from the start that what I was see-
ing was not of God. I have also read much that is 'pro-Toronto',
but have found myself singularly unconvinced - particularly when
the Scriptural and historical arguments used have been so patent-
ly poor. As we have seen, history clearly shows that such man-
ifestations should be regarded as demonic counterfeits. Having
studied Revival history now for many years, I simply do not be-
lieve that such a conclusion can be denied.
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| 35.2 | (Continued) | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Fri Feb 14 1997 13:43 | 345 |
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The Pensacola "Blessing"
By Andrew Strom
In America in recent months there has been a good deal of attention
given to what is known as the "Pensacola Outpouring", which is asso-
ciated with an Assembly of God church in Brownsville, Pensacola. Of
course, this is only one of a number of Christian 'revival/renewal'
movements that have emerged in America over the last few years, the
most well-known of these being the "Toronto Blessing".
As I have written in my previous article, "The Toronto Controversy -
Disturbing new facts from History," I have been alarmed to find
through research that the manifestations associated with Toronto
are seemingly identical to many counterfeit movements which have in-
filtrated and destroyed genuine Revivals down through history. Such
manifestations are also identical to those found in the modern
'Kundalini' cults of Ramakrishna, Rajneesh, etc, as well as the oc-
cultic Chinese 'Qigong' movement, Franz Mesmer's occultic healing
practice and other New Age type groups around the world. And yet,
such manifestations are found nowhere in the Bible! As I said in
that article, if these are the days of "great deception" amongst
Christians spoken of in the Scriptures, then shouldn't we be a
little more careful about what we allow into God's church?
Christian contacts that I have in America have assured me that this
"Pensacola" movement is quite different from 'Toronto', but is this
in fact, the case? Or is this yet another instance of Toronto
changing it's spots and acquiring a new "brand-name" in order to in-
filtrate yet another branch of Christendom?
The fact is, the links between Toronto and Pensacola are so strong
that I am surprised that they are not more widely known. (I wonder,
could this be a deliberate attempt to put some "distance" between
Toronto and Pensacola?) Actually, one only has to take a cursory
look at the readily-available information to begin to see the very
strong linkages.
According to one "pro-Pensacola" writer, Beth McDuffie, who has been
attending the Brownsville Assembly of God for over eight years now,
the true course of events was really very simple. She says that on
the 18th of June, 1995, visiting evangelist Steve Hill held an alter
call for people who wanted "more power" in their Christian lives. As
people went forward, they began to fall down shaking and crying,
etc, just like 'Toronto' meetings everywhere. And this was the
beginning of the "Pensacola revival". And where had the evangelist,
Steve Hill, picked up this anointing? Very simply, he had done
'carpet time' after being prayed for by a leader in one of the main
"Toronto" churches in London shortly before. And now he was simply
transferring this anointing into Brownsville Assembly of God. It
appears that Steve Hill has in times past been a successful repent-
ance evangelist, and no doubt this has remained with him. But is it
not possible that he has also picked up a counterfeit spirit, which
is now operating in these meetings? Are not even men of God capable
of being deceived? (As history clearly shows?)
The main pastor of Brownsville AOG, John Kilpatrick, himself wrote a
brief article shortly afterwards, listing the most common manifest-
ations that were occurring in Pensacola. The major manifestations
that he listed were: 1) Falling on the floor (for the purpose of
"deep inner healing, preparation for ministry, physical healing, re-
ceiving of visions, feeling the love of God"); 2) Laughter;
3) Shaking ("head, hands, feet, and body"); 4) Deep bowing. Can
anyone tell me in what significant way such manifestations differ
from those of 'Toronto'? The fact is, they are basically identical
to the 'Toronto' manifestations which have been seen everywhere,
right around the world (including my own nation of New Zealand).
And the original source is obviously identical, also.
In a recent article in Charisma magazine, "pro-Pensacola" writer
Lee Grady described one famous scene from the Brownsville revival
which has been video-ed and sent out everywhere. This event occurred
on August 18, 1995, when 19 year-old Alison Ward got up to give her
testimony. Mr Grady says: "As she spoke, Alison shook in a manner so
awkward that a casual observer might think she suffered from cere-
bral palsy. Then, while trembling violently, she issued a plea so
heartfelt that those in the room say they heard God speaking through
her. Choking back tears she said intently: 'God is in a hurry.
There's not much more time. He aches and He grieves for your
spirit.' At that moment Alison fell to the floor. A deafening chorus
of moaning and wailing filled the room as people were moved by an
almost eerie sense of God's love for lost souls... Alison's eight-
minute testimony, which was captured on videotape, represents the
defining moment of this revival."
It is interesting to note the emphasis on this 'Cerebral Palsy'-like
shaking (sometimes resembling 'jerking', Epilepsy or Parkinson's
Disease) in the Brownsville movement, rather than on laughter, which
seems to be only of secondary significance there. However, there is
no doubt at all that this is the same movement as the one that has
already swept through many churches in the West under the "Toronto"
banner. Even these extreme bodily- distortion type manifestations
have been relatively common in 'Toronto'. Notice also the emphasis
on "inner healing", 'carpet time' and experiencing the 'manifest
presence of God' - all likewise identical to Toronto.
Needless to say, such manifestations are found nowhere in the Bible.
However, they ARE found right through today's New Age movement,
as well as in many counterfeit and demonic spiritual movements down
through history. I myself have been studying Revival and Reformation
history now for over twelve years, and as I have stated before, many
such counterfeits have infiltrated and destroyed genuine Revivals
over the centuries. Great Revivalists such as John Wesley and
Charles Finney became more and more aware of the danger of such
counterfeits entering in and ruining genuine Revivals as time went
by, and they wrote specific warnings about this. (Please see my
'Toronto Controversy' article).
Some very well-known Revivals have been wrecked or have ended in
disarray simply due to the devil successfully flooding them with
exactly these kinds of excesses and counterfeits. In Jonathan
Edwards' day, the New England Awakening ended disastrously almost
entirely due to the spurious manifestations and excesses that were
encouraged by 'revival' preachers such as James Davenport and Samuel
Buelle. In fact, Jonathan Edwards wrote of the 'heavenly trances'
promoted by Buelle that, "when the people were raised to this
height, Satan took the advantage, and his interposition in many
instances soon became very apparent; and a great deal of caution and
pains were found necessary to keep the people, many of them from
running wild."
The Welsh Revival ended the same way, with excesses and counterfeit
manifestations flooding in once the Revival leader Evan Roberts was
off the scene. What a nightmare! One of the most promising moves of
God in history in absolute disarray after little more than one year.
Many of the early Pentecostal pioneers were also well aware of the
dangers: "Many are willing to seek 'power' from every battery they
can lay their hands on in order to perform miracles... A true 'Pent-
ecost' will produce a mighty conviction for sin, a turning to God.
False manifestations produce only excitement and wonder" (- Frank
Bartleman, a leader in the 1906 'Azusa Street' Revival).
I'm sorry, but I just cannot go along with the idea that God wants
to distort the limbs and the bodies of His children so that they
look like sufferers of Cerebral Palsy, Epilepsy and Parkinson's Dis-
ease. I cannot go along with a 'revival' that makes God's children
'jerk' for hours at a time, just like the mental patients seen in
our Psychiatric wards every day. And I cannot go along with a
shrieking, hyena-like laughter being described as 'holy'. I have
to be frank and say, it all sounds too much like the devil to me.
I am a Charismatic, tongues-speaking believer myself, and I do be-
lieve in a miracle-working God, and a great end-times move of His
Spirit. But frankly, I just cannot go along with the idea that this
is true and pure Revival.
Some writers have pointed out that people "fell down under the power
of God" during many previous Revivals. Yes, they fell down allright,
- under the most PIERCING SORROW AND CONVICTION OF SIN. They fell
down under the preaching of Edwards, Whitfield, Wesley and Finney
BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT STAND UNDER THE WEIGHT OF THEIR OWN SIN FOR A
MOMENT LONGER. They fell as thunderstruck by the awesome HOLINESS of
the living God. As I have said, I have been studying Revivals for
over twelve years now, and I would have to say that the overriding
theme of genuine Revival down the centuries has been TREMENDOUS CON-
VICTION OF SIN AND DEEP REPENTANCE (not "inner healing", which has
always been one of the very major emphases of the New Age movement
worldwide, but is not found in the Bible).
As one writer has said, "Revival is not the top blowing off, but
rather the bottom falling out." And as Pentecostal pioneer Frank
Bartleman wrote: "The depth of revival will be determined exactly by
the depth of the spirit of repentance. This will obtain for all peo-
ple, at all times."
It was said of the preaching of the great Revivalist Savonarola that
it caused "such terror and alarm, such sobbing and tears that people
passed through the streets without speaking, more dead than alive."
And Jonathan Edwards himself is famous for his Revival sermon,
"Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God", during which people were
observed holding themselves up, as they felt themselves slipping
into hell.
Charles Finney wrote of one typical occasion: "I had not spoken to
them in this strain of direct application more than a quarter of an
hour, when all at once an awful solemnity seemed to settle down upon
them. The congregation began to fall from their seats in every dir-
ection and cry for mercy. If I had had a sword in my hand I could
not have cut them off their seats as fast as they fell. Indeed,
nearly the whole congregation were either on their knees or
prostrate in less than two minutes from this first shock that fell
upon them. Everyone who was able to speak at all prayed for him-
self."
I could go on and on in this vein. (Please see my book, "The Coming
Great Reformation"). I hope you can see how very, very different
these genuine 'repentance' Revivals were, to what is happening to-
day.
I have to say that I have been quite amazed at how easily these
counterfeit Toronto/Pensacola type manifestations have been allowed
to sweep through the church, when they are found nowhere in the
Bible, and yet right through today's New Age movement. As one former
devotee of Swami Baba Muktananda stated, the 'Kundalini' manifest-
ations that accompanied the Swami's "laying on of hands" included
uncontrollable laughter, crying, roaring, barking, shaking etc.
This is very common amongst the Hindu-based cults worldwide. And
when Yan Xin, a Chinese 'Qigong' occultic Master, gave a talk to a
crowd in San Francisco in 1991, the San Francisco Chronicle reported
that many in the crowd began to report "spontaneous movements". Yan
told his audience, "Those who are sensitive might start having some
strong physical sensations - or start laughing or crying. Don't
worry. This is quite normal." Tell me, don't these manifestations
sound awfully familiar?
And what about the manifestations that resulted from Franz Mesmer's
demonic "ministry"? Here is what the history books describe: "...It
was not uncommon for that person to then fall to the ground with his
or her limbs jerking in convulsions. Twitching, eyeball- rolling,
strange grunts and cries, and hysterical laughter were also fairly
common. The curious fact was that when these folk awoke from the
ensuing coma ['carpet-time'?]... they often claimed to be healed
from their particular complaint" (- Tony Bambridge). Again I ask the
question: Doesn't all this sound awfully familiar? (Such manifest-
ations usually start off fairly 'mild' in any new movement, and then
get progressively more bizarre as time goes on).
The fact is, we live today in the very times that Jesus and the
apostles warned us about - the "last days" - a time of 'great apost-
acy', of "lying signs and wonders", of seducing spirits and great
deception amongst Christians, that if possible would 'deceive the
very elect'. And yet what do we see the church doing? Rushing head-
long into the most dubious "experience-based" movement that has
happened along in the last fifty years or more, apparently without a
care in the world. What do you think God will do to you, Christian
leaders, if you are wrong, and you have led His precious flock into
open deception?
As I said in my article, "The Truth about Joel's Army", the book of
Joel prophesies that in the last days, immediately prior to the
GENUINE outpouring of God's Spirit "upon all flesh", a great army of
locusts will first sweep through and devour every good thing in the
land. First comes the PLAGUE OF LOCUSTS (as a judgement from God),
then comes the TRUE REVIVAL. Interesting sequence, isn't it?
I also wrote in that article about the hidden 'strategy' that is
seemingly being used to spread "Toronto" through all of the differ-
ent branches of Christendom at this time. First came Rodney Howard-
Browne and Kenneth Copeland - perfect vehicles for bringing this
deception into the Faith/Prosperity movement. It was then trans-
ferred directly into the Toronto Airport Vineyard church via some
Vineyard pastors, thus "distancing" itself from it's Faith Movement
associations, and taking on a format that was far more "acceptable"
to the Vineyard and also to the American prophetic movement (these
two are closely aligned). It was then transferred directly via some
Anglican leaders into Britain (again, making itself more acceptable
through being brought in by their 'own kind'). And now we have a
direct transfer through Steve Hill from London into Brownsville,
Pensacola,- enabling this deception to once again "change it's
spots", to distance itself from previous taints and associations,
and to now appeal to the conservative Bible-belt Christians. Clever,
isn't it?
And recent reports certainly confirm that this deception is spread-
ing at an alarming rate from Pensacola, right through the conserv-
ative American Bible-belt. A number of prominent Methodist and
Southern Baptist churches, as well as many Assemblies of God, have
already aligned themselves with it.
It is interesting to note that all along, it doesn't seem to have
mattered what has been preached in these 'Toronto'- type meetings
around the world. Rodney Howard-Browne himself once reported preach-
ing about 'Hell', and seeing the congregation still exhibiting the
usual bizarre manifestations - mainly uncontrollable laughter! He
has also preached on the 'blood of Christ' on occasion, and it has
made little seeming difference. The same applies to the Toronto Air-
port church, and many other such meetings around the world. Often,
there has been almost no preaching at all - only an altar call. They
could probably have preached about life on Mars or Ballerinas in
tights, and it would have made little difference. The falling,
laughter and uncontrollable weeping would still have gone on re-
gardless. Strangely enough, it is clearly not what is being preached
in this movement, but rather the 'spirit' that is at work amongst
the congregation that is the crucial factor. And this spirit seems
to be very easily passed on from one leader to the next. They then
often begin to use their God-given Preaching gift to promote this
new 'anointing'. What a deadly mixture! A God-given gift in preach-
ing, married to a foreign spirit moving amongst the congregation.
Surely the deadliest form of deception.
Much has been made, in the Pensacola movement, of the number of
people they say are being 'saved' or 'going forward' at Brownsville.
It is important to remember that such claims were also being made
for Rodney Howard-Browne and Toronto in the beginning. The questions
I would ask are these: How many of these people are genuine unbe-
lievers from off the street, and how many are just being 'converted'
to this new movement from within Christendom? (ie. they come from
other churches, or have been brought up within Christendom itself).
And are they truly coming to CHRIST for salvation, or are they re-
sponding merely to some kind of emotional high? As one young convert
told an interviewer at Brownsville, the emotional rush he has felt
since his conversion is "better than drugs". But is this a truly
legitimate motive for responding to the eternal gospel of the cross
of Christ? In many instances, is this truly REPENTANCE that is going
on here, or is it something else?
The fact is, these are the "last days",- the days when the Bible
predicts that a great deception will arise (most likely from within
the church itself) that will 'deceive if possible the very elect'.
I wonder if you can imagine a movement that more closely fits this
description, than the one we are seeing sweep through the church at
this present time? For what would it take to 'deceive if possible
the very elect'? As Art Katz has said, "in what ways will future
'lying signs and wonders' be different from that with which we are
presently being confronted?"
I do want to say here that I myself am definitely a believer in a
great last- days outpouring of God's Spirit "upon all flesh" - a
flood of great mercy immediately prior to the great JUDGEMENT that
will close this present age. However, I believe that as always,
there will only be a 'remnant' - a kind of "Gideon's three hundred"
- who will bring in this last great harvest. For many who 'should be
there' will disqualify themselves, just as many of the children of
Israel disqualified themselves before they reached the promised
land, and only a tiny remnant from that generation survived to in-
herit the promise.
The Revival I believe in is not some kind of experience-centred
"inner healing" extravaganza, but rather a true outpouring, where
the glory and the majestic holiness of the Most High God come down,
and men are first convicted, then cleansed from their sin. It is my
belief that God is about to cleanse and anoint His people, and bring
them out onto the streets, just like the book of Acts and also the
mighty Wesley and Salvation Army Revivals. And like those last two
great moves of God, there will be a new kind of battle and praise
music that will be raised up by God. This is to be a Great Reform-
ation - the great last-days 'street-Revival'. Yes, there will be
healings and miracles, but they certainly won't seem like they're
straight out of the New Age 'Kundalini' Instruction Manual. And yes,
there will be 'unusual' occurrences (there always are), but they
will all have a strong sense of God's true, holy character about
them (otherwise they will be rejected). The preaching will be just
like the Finneys and the Wesleys of old - direct, piercing and cut-
ting to the heart - the "Sin, righteousness and judgement" preaching
that has always accompanied true Revival. What a glorious end-times
move of God this will be! (The above is a summary of what God has
shown many praying people and intercessors in New Zealand about the
coming move of God - please see my book).
As David Wilkerson said to Charisma magazine recently, "There are
people having great emotional experiences right now and calling it
revival. But I think that true revival will come through searing,
heart-piercing, convicting preaching where people are driven to
their knees to repent." I think that pretty-much sums it up.
|
| 35.3 | (Continued) | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Fri Feb 14 1997 13:48 | 136 |
|
From: GZGD16A@prodigy.com (MRS BARBARA M LAGRANGE)
Subject: Re: Pensacola "revival"
In the summer of 1996, Charisma magazine published an extensive
article on the "revival" taking place at the Brownsville Assembly of
God in Pensacola, Florida. Great care was given to describe this
"revival" as being quite different from the Toronto Blessing.
Throughout the article, it was claimed that this was in fact an
authentic revival with repentance and salvations occurring nightly..
in the tradition of the great revivals of the past.
I felt an urge by the Holy Spirit to make a detour on my family
vacation and visit the Brownsville Assembly of God. So with great
anticipation and expectation I arrived in Pensacola late on a Friday
evening in August. The next day we drove out to the barrier islands
that lie off the coast of Pensacola and witnessed the devastation of
two recent hurricanes that had come inland at Pensacola (a rare
phenomenon for two hurricanes to enter at the same point in such a
short span of time).
I felt the timing of these powerful storms and the "revival" taking
place were not coincidental and that the Lord was speaking to me
through things I was witnessing in the natural but I had no idea yet
as to the interpretation of these events. We also visited an old
military fort, Fort Pickens. As I toured the fort, the guide
informed us that Ft. Pickens was the only fort that remained loyal to
the Union during the American Civil War, the other three forts that
guarded the harbor at Pensacola were taken over by the rebel
confederacy forces that fought against Ft. Pickens. Miraculously,
though surrounded and outnumbered and cutoff from the mainland,
Pickens never fell. It was supplied from the sea.
With these images in my heart, I was still unsuspecting as to what
waited for me at the Brownsville Assembly of God. I got to the
meeting early, excited at the prospect of perhaps seeing a true
revival, something I know every believer of Jesus Christ longs to see
in the church. It is so desperately needed. As I talked with those
waiting, everyone encouraged us that our long trip would not be in
vain, that we would be greatly blessed. I purchased some booklets in
the lobby excited to learn more about what God was doing.
Finally, the meeting began with worship. My excitement and
enthusiasm quickly vanished. Something seemed very wrong to me. I
thought maybe I was expecting too much. The worship was very typical
of the modern contemporary worship that I had been accustomed to,
most of the songs familiar, but something didn't seem right in the
Spirit.. Then the manifestations began. Young girls walking around
gesturing as though they were mentally ill. One of the worship
leaders, a female, collapsed on the floor during theh worship where
she remained for a long time. I kept telling myself.. keep an open
mind. I kept asking God.. is this you.. if this is you, give me a
peace in my spirit. It never came. As the speakers began to share,
I became increasing disturbed. They spoke of the mystical appearance
of the river on that fateful Sunday in June of 1995 and how its power
swept into the building and changed everything. They went on and on
about manifestations, particularly about bizarre behaviors in which
they believed they were birthing things through intercession. The
pastor's wife spoke and the entire time she was on the platform she
jerked uncontrollably as she told stories of phenomenon. Finally, I
could stand it no longer. I looked at my family and said let's get
out of here. They were quick to agree. I left the materials that I
had purchased on the church parking lot. I didn't even want to take
them in my car.
At first, I was devastated. I was so disappointed.. so confused.
Why would God send me to witness such a spectacle. I thought surely
I missed God, either in the decision to come.. or the decision to get
up and leave. As I wept before the Lord, sought His face over the
next few days, I realized why he had sent me. The hurricanes were a
warning. Mighty storms are devastating the church.. the storm
generating from Pensacola, Florida will be twice as devastating and
will come in two phases.. like the two hurricanes. Pensacola has
allready been the sight of great religious deception with the murder
of an abortion doctor. What is being heralded as good is bringing
untold destruction. I also realized that we are about to enter a
period of "civil war" in the church, a battle between the true church
of true faith which will be like Fort Pickens and the deceived church
in rebellion and a counterfeit spirit like the three forts which were
taken over by enemy forces. Those who know the truth, who are loyal
to the kingdom, will be under great assault but as we look to God,
look to the sea of His faithfulness, we too will be supplied and we
will be able to stand and be victorious in the end.
The deceptive power of the enemy is awesome and adaptive. The folks
promoting Pensacola are cleverly answering the objections that have
been made to the Toronto Blessing. They are now packaging this
revival as authentic, patterned after the revivals of John Wesley's
day. This is deception and I believe with all my heart that the
spirit operating at Pensacola is a religious spirit, a counterfeit
spirit.
Even my 9 year old son made the comment as we were leaving, "Mommy
they never talked about Jesus." He was right. They talked about the
river, they talked about manifestations of power but I never heard
the word of God read or glory given to the Son of God. Now I must
confess I was in the meeting for only a little over an hour so I do
not know what happened after I left, but the Spirit of God inside me
did not bear witness that this "revival" was of Him.
As I have thought about this emphasis on the river, I was reminded by
the Lord that another culture worshipped a river.. it was the
Egyptians. I admit this river theology that is developing frightens
me. It makes the river the source, it makes the river the focus of
faith. Let me give you an example from Naman the Syrian general.
Advised by the prophet to dip in the river seven times to be cured of
leprosy, he obeyed and was healed but he went back to the prophet to
give glory to God. He knew the source of the healing wasn't the
river. The error I see in this emphasis on manifestations is this:
Our journey is no longer toward the prize of the high calling, we
must simply get to the river. Christianity is no longer taking up
the cross and following Jesus, it is a resort experience by the
"river." I am also reminded of Lot's decision to migrate to the
valley by the river and the wealth of Sodom and Gomorrah while
Abraham remained apart from the world on the mountain at Hebron.
Not only has Charisma magazine been promoting the Pensacola revival,
but other charismatic ministries are joining the bandwagon. I have
been receiving Hosanna Worship/Integrity Music tapes and CD's for
many years now. I recently returned one for the first time. It was
the worship music from the so-called "revival" at the Brownsville
Assembly of God. I want to encourage everyone who has seen the
deception of Toronto not to be fooled by Brownsville. I believe it
is the same deception with a slightly different packaging. But it
is being touted by Charisma, by Integrity Music and others as the
real thing.
Let me be clear. I am just a little lamb. I have no credentials. I
have no training. I am just a seeker after Jesus Christ that tasted
the "revival" at Brownsville Assembly of God in Pensacola.. and even
though I have never tasted a true revival, I know in my heart, and by
the Spirit of God, that this is not revival. May we humble ourselves,
pray, turn from our wicked ways and seek His face, then we will
experience true revival..
|
| 35.4 | (Continued) | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Fri Feb 14 1997 13:59 | 64 |
|
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:41:07 -0600
From: Bruce Moylan <at2@traveller.com>
Subject: Deception on the Move
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
I have been a subscriber to this list service for about a month and
have been blessed sitting on the sidelines and gleaning information.
I have not been called or really operate in the prophetic gift, but
I feel that the Lord gave me some insight into what I believe is a
great deception facing the Church. I know that this service is not
a forum for Toronto/Pensacola support or bashing, but I feel that
this insight needs to be stated.
The youth at my church are really starting to "get on fire" for the
Lord. Yesterday, they didn't leave the sanctuary until two hours
after the service had ended. They are starting to pray, and seek
the Lord. This on the surface seems quite good and exciting.
However there is a twist. I have noticed that these youth are
starting to shake when praying, wail loudly, get "drunk in the
spirit", and laugh uncontrollably. Two of the youth instrumental
in this "revival" have gone to both Toronto and Pensacola. I am
starting to see some of the Toronto excesses being played out before
me. Yesterday, the wailing was so loud that when the parents
came back to the church, they heard the commotion from downstairs and
across the entire building. This my friends was a loud roar. One youth
had done about an hour of carpet time and had to be physically helped
out of the church. Another received a laughing jag.
While I praise the Lord when people start to really seek his face, I am
feel that this is mearly seeking his power. Yesterday afternoon I was
meditating on all that I have seen occur. The "manifestations" are
becoming more pronounced and frequent. I feel that the Lord impressed
on my heart that this deception was being spearheaded through the youth.
Most youth are just starting their walk with the Lord and are therefore
more generally less spiritually discerning. Therefore more easily led
astray.
From many of the first hand accounts that I have received from Pensacola,
the youth were usually found to be quite active in the "manifestations".
The "genius" of this is quite subtle. This comes from that fact that
all Christian parents long to have the children actively seek the Lord.
When this happens they immediately think that what is going on is great
and must be encouraged. If anyone speaks out against the "phenomena"
then they are indirectly impugning their children and their new found
desire for "Christ". The parents get so excited that they do everything
to encourage these things. Speaking out against them will not be met
in the spirit that it is given, and will cause major disruptions in
the church. I am starting to feel that when this "seed" is planted,
it has deep roots, and is not easily destroyed.
With this approach, Satan can deceive even those mature in their faith
by hitting them in a blind spot, their children. This is already starting
to happen in my church. Everyone thinks it is the greatest thing since
Pentecost, and I am left wondering if a deception is about to claim
another local fellowship.
I hope that I am not being hypersensitive. Please pray for me to receive
wisdom.
In Christ
Bruce Moylan
|
| 35.5 | Joel's Army or Gideon's | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Fri Feb 14 1997 14:10 | 79 |
|
Date sent: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 07:12:37 +1100
From: rnkholmes <rnkholmes@accsoft.com.au>
Subject: Re: THE ARMIES COMING TOGETHER TODAY
(Introduction by: A. Strom):
Just before we get to Robert's vision of "Joels Army and Gideons
Army", I want to give readers some important background
information. I have known Robert for some time now. He has
quite a well-known prophetic ministry in Australia, and is editor
of "Construction Site" - a widely known prophetic journal in
that part of the world. Until recently, he has also been a
worship leader in one of Australia's most openly "pro-Toronto"
churches. However, God was giving him disturbing revelations,
dreams and visions... The following vision was given to him in
late 1995, well before I got to know him.
The vision
I was looking down from a high place, and I saw a mighty army. It was
marching in a long column through the jungle. It looked for all the
world like a serpent. At it's head was a banner which read "Joel's
army". Behind them was a swath of destroyed vegetation. Then I saw off
to the side, waiting in the jungle, a single battalion. They were
standing still, assembled in a perfect square. They were waiting for
marching orders, and did not follow after Joel's army. At the head of
this group was a banner reading "Gideon's army".
Scripture indicates that in the end times, the army Joel saw will
march on the great and terrible day, a day of blackness: "a great and
powerful army...before them is like the garden of Eden, after them is
desolate" (Joel 2:2,3). The prophet describes them as being "a
powerful army, the cutting locust...the swarming locust...the hopping
locust...the destroying locust" (Joel 1:4).
The Lord is depicted as commanding them, in much the same way as it is
said that Babylon was His handservant (Jer 25:9). He uses the nations
to chastise his wayward and disobedient children (Jer 46:28). Yet the
prophet makes clear that as this army is released on the earth it is a
sign for us to repent! "Yet even now, says the LORD, return to me with
all your heart, with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning"(Joel
2:12). Indeed He promises to restore what is lost- but He gives to the
repentant what this army of locusts will eat up (2:25). He does not
promise great increase for those in this army! In my vision I saw this
army, right now, marching. Not a lovely nice warm fuzzy army, but only
in actual fact devouring all before it. I beleive this is the blessing
movement.
Gideon's army stands in almost direct contrast however. It has not
been given leave to march yet. It stands in perfect balance and
harmony, and is much smaller. They are waiting in assembly. Gideon's
host was promised "Go in this might of yours and deliver Israel...I
will be with you and you shall strike down the Midianites!" (Judges
6:14,15). Gideon's army is even now gathering in the jungle. It does
not yet have it's marching orders. I believe it is God's true army
waiting in the wings to fight His war against the Midianites who
inhabit the chosen land at the moment. I get the impression they will
march around April/ May/ June 1997.
I believe many are joining the popular, marching army of the blessing,
chasing after a touch, and experience, an anointing. They are marching
through 'Eden' but behind them is desolate. Do not be deceived, just
because God is at the head of an army (obeying His commands) does not
make it the right army to join. Nor indeed does its popularity. In my
vision, Joel's army was a lot bigger. Before us lies a choice, join
the ranks of the devouring horde- an instrument of judgement on the
peoples, or wait and join the ranks of Gideon's host!
We must beware of the trap of the 'blessing' and of the "pleasure
mentality" infecting the church, the chasing after a touch, chasing
God for what He will give us, rather than what we can give Him,
(the root is really selfishness). At this time we must be preparing
our boats to cross over into the promised territory.
God bless you all
Robert Holmes
|
| 35.6 | | PHXSS1::HEISER | Maranatha! | Fri Feb 14 1997 18:17 | 2 |
| Toronto and Pensacola are popular topics on the Bible Answer Man
lately. Hank's coming out with a book on them next month.
|
| 35.7 | | KAOFS::O_DEBOER | | Fri Feb 14 1997 18:43 | 3 |
| You don't need to wait for Hank's anti book when there are so many good
books already out there.
|
| 35.8 | | PHXSS1::HEISER | Maranatha! | Sat Feb 15 1997 00:34 | 2 |
| You're right. You really don't need more than the Bible to see the
deception.
|
| 35.9 | Bruce Moylan Update | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Mon Feb 17 1997 14:16 | 49 |
|
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:08:13 -0600
From: Bruce Moylan <at2@traveller.com>
Hello Andrew and the List,
A few days ago, I wrote to tell everyone what was starting to happen
at my church. How the youth started to move in the "Pensacola" way.
Well I just wanted to pass on that things are changing. I felt led of the
Lord to talk to my Pastor about my concerns. By noon the next day after
these things started to manifest themselves, my Pastor had already alerted
the staff that such excess would not be allowed in the church. Now this is
a Charismatic church that is not unfamiliar with the workings of the
Spirit. The youth pastor was called in and the youth are now going to
receive much needed teaching about discerning of spirits. This started
with a sermon Wednesday night on Romans 10:2 (for they are zealous for
God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.)
The Pastor stated that the youth needed to know that there were many
spirits, but only one Holy Spirit. My pastor is also the district
overseer for our fellowship. His area of responsibility covers Georgia,
Alabama, and Mississippi. He related to me an account of a church in
South Alabama (near Pensacola) that was "blessed" with the "laughing
revival". He said that what typically happens when pastors allow such
things to go on is that the most rooted and grounded Christians walk
right out the door. Then the spiritual thrill seekers flood in and
swell the roles. This gives the pastor the impression that everything is
going well and they are being blessed of God. When the thrills get
old, the seekers just pick up and leave for the next event, and the local
fellowship is decimated.
As the report concluded, at the end of the revival, the church was
actually closed. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that
this did not come from the throne room of God. If the result of these
revivals doesn't bring better fruit than the actual closing of a church,
then nothing more needs to be said. This is not bashing, or even a
disagreement over doctrine... we all need to re-focus our attention on
this attack. I just praise the Lord for my local pastors and the courage
they displayed for the Lamb.
I wish to thank Brother Andrew for this service and the articles on his
homepage that first alerted me to this attack. Praise the Lord for your
ministry, and may God's grace and peace abound in your life more and
more each day.
In happy submission to a wise God,
Bruce Moylan
|
| 35.10 | | PAULKM::WEISS | To speak the Truth, you must first live it | Tue Feb 18 1997 14:51 | 72 |
| I read this with some interest. I've heard this before, though this person
is more articulate than most and more connected to the movement and so is
more credible.
I've mentioned before that I have been involved in parts of this renewal
which are similar to Toronto and Pensacola, though I've never been to either
of those places. I have seen much that has exalted Christ in this renewal,
and some that does not. I share the concern about some of the more bizarre
manifestations, and about the tendency for people to seek after
sensationalism and emotional 'high' experiences rather than after Jesus. But
I have seen so much in it that is a delight to Christ. In my own life, He
has brought tremendous blessing, instruction, chastening (there's that word
again!) and encouragement through the power of His spirit in this renewal,
which I have sometimes experienced in ways which have had outward
manifestations.
I'm not going to enter into a huge apologetic of the movement. But one thing
really stood out to me in this account, and that was the assertion that
'true' revival was always about helfire preaching, and about heart-stricken
conviction of sin, not about 'inner healing.'
That may be true of some of the revivals that we have seen, but it is NOT
true of the 'revival' led by the author and finisher of our faith.
What did Jesus do in His ministry? His annointing, recorded in Isaiah 61 and
which He claimed in the synagogue at the beginning of His ministry, was:
To preach good news to the poor.
To bind up the broken hearted.
To proclaim freedom for the captives.
To release the prisoners from darkness.
To proclaim the year of the Lord's favor,
and the day of vengeance of our God.
To comfort all who mourn.
To provide for those who grieve.
To bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes.
the oil of gladness instead of mourning.
a garment of praise instead of the spirit of despair.
This is nearly ALL about healing and comfort, not about conviction. The only
thing that even hints at conviction is "the day of vengeance of our God."
And Jesus ministry was nearly ALL about healing, too. He went about healing
constantly. He went about eating with sinners. I don't recall one single
instance in scripture where a sinner, in Jesus presence, responded to the
presence of God in wailing conviction of sin. There was conviction, yes.
Life-changing conviction. But it was usually of the form of Zacheus: after
Jesus reached out to him in love and acceptance, Zacheus responded in JOYFUL
conviction. It wasn't about wailing about his sin, it wasn't about being
confronted with the awfulness of who he HAD been, it was about seeing the
glory of who he COULD be in Christ. It was about new life flooding his
being, and his crying out "I will live differently! I am a new man!"
Even the tears that are recorded, such as the woman washing His feet with her
hair, don't seem to be tears of conviction but tears of love and gratitude.
Jesus WHOLE MINISTRY was about healing. He healed people everywhere He went.
It doesn't mention inner healing much, though it mentions deliverance a lot.
But inner healing is the least outwardly dramatic of healings. He could heal
someone from, say, chronic depression, and no one around would know a thing
about it. It's not dramatic like a paralytic standing up or a demon growling
out of a person's mouth and then being cast out. But it is no less dramatic
from the person receiving the healing.
The ministry of healing - ALL healing - is the minstry of Jesus. Don't let
Satan steal that ministry by proclaiming his own version of 'inner healing.'
I would not go so far as to say that falling under the 'awful conviction of
sin' is NOT biblical - there are cases like Isaiah (Woe is me!), but I WOULD
say that it is NOT a requirement, since it was either not present, or at most
minimally so, in Jesus' ministry.
Paul
|
| 35.11 | | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Thu Feb 20 1997 13:08 | 63 |
| Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:25:54 -0600
From: "Neal @ Darlene H." <neal@tcac.com>
Subject: Pensacola Outpouring
Dear Andrew,
I am so grateful for the articles you have written exposing the
Pensacola outpouring. There are a number of articles exposing the
Toronto Blessing, but hardly anything at all on the Pensacola
movement. A group from our church, including our pastor, visited
the Brownsville Assembly of God. We had heard about all the lost
souls that were supposedly getting saved, and how wonderfully God
was supposedly moving. We genuinely thought this was going to be
a really great move of God, but it didn't take us very long to
find out that satan was in charge of that service!!!!!
As I sat there in the balcony, I couldn't help noticing all the weird,
strange things people around me were doing. I thought "there surely
are a lot people here with nervous tics, and Parkinson's disease."
I truly thought that was what was the matter with them. But, I felt
so uneasy, like something wasn't right, yet I couldn't figure out
what it was. Well some of these people whom I thought had a nervous
tics began to get worse as the service progressed, and some began
to laugh and scream- a blood curdling scream. It was at this point
of the service that I decided that all these people were demon
oppressed, and didn't have nervous tics at all.
It was quite a disturbing thought as there were so many of them,
and I thought, I've never seen anything like this in all my life!!!!
I closed my eyes and prayed "Dear Lord please let this be the night
these people are delivered from this horrible demonic oppression. In
Jesus name, Amen.
Steve Hill got up to preach, and mostly told stories, showed us his
dictionary that he'd bought with scriptures in it, told us not to
analyze this "move of God", and that we'd better receive it if we
didn't want a stamp of disapproval from Jesus. I sat there as he
was speaking thinking "this man's words are dead, there is absolutely
no annointing on him- none. "I was still trying to figure out what
was wrong with this whole picture when our pastor got up from the
choir section where he was sitting, and walked up to the balcony
where the rest of us were. It was very obvious that he was greatly
disturbed and he said to us "we've got to get out of here, there is
something really wrong." We all agreed!!
All of us managed to get out to the parking lot where our pastor
told us that the strange, wicked looking movements we were seeing
in the balcony were in fact happening all through the audience. Our
pastor said that the true Holy Spirit impressed strongly that we
should not let them lay hands on us, for the spirit that was
causing all the epileptic type symptoms and chicken walking etc.
is passed by the laying on of hands. The Holy Spirit impressed
strongly that we were not only to leave, but that we were to never
go back.
It was like we had somehow fallen into a real life horror movie!!!! I
still can hardly believe what I saw with my own eyes!!! It was evil!!!
Those people are not being saved; they can say the sinner's prayer all
day long, but unless the true Holy Spirit is there to do the work of
regeneration they cannot be saved. The Spirit of the Lord must draw a
person to Christ, and He was not there!!!!!!!!!!!! This is the great
deception!!!!!!!!
|
| 35.12 | | PHXSS1::HEISER | Maranatha! | Thu Feb 20 1997 13:41 | 3 |
| I've always said this doesn't sound like God's Holy Spirit. He's a
perfect gentlemen, never imposing His Will, but the Will of the Father.
He only moves where invited, and does not harm the Father's children.
|
| 35.13 | Pensacola ? ? ? | HLFS06::WILDT_W | Technicians are alone 2 | Fri Feb 21 1997 09:45 | 25 |
| I'm confused, I read about Pensacola, that what happens in the
church there should not be good.
But the people who tell this are not known to me, and I have
no idea if I can relay that what they are telling is the truth.
From my own pastor I hear that people who he can relay on has
been there, and they say it's good.
What is really happening there, I can't simply accept that a
few "strangers" telling that what has happend there is not good.
And as a result of this no one ever talk about this again.
I want to know what is happening from many people and if they
all have the same conclusion from seeing this from very close
they might have a point.
But like the Bible is telling, if what's happening here is from
Satan it will surely die, but if it's realy the Lord, then no
one can stop it.
Let me know about the miracles which does happend, because like
many churches our church is waiting for the healings and mighty
outporing power of Gods Spirit!
L.B.W.
|
| 35.14 | | PAULKM::WEISS | To speak the Truth, you must first live it | Fri Feb 21 1997 13:02 | 35 |
| It is worth noting that in Jesus day, when He moved in ways which offended
the sensibilities of the people, they jumped to the immediate assumption that
He was of the devil. Here was this man acting in all sorts of ways that did
not befit the "Glory and Majesty" of God that they expected of the Messiah.
He came from a poor and disreputable town, and was born in a manger. He did
not come as a glorious leader, he came as a humble man, a man who rejected
the church leaders and fellowshiped with whores and tax collectors and other
despicable people.
Further, he did things that they could point to and proclaim "God would never
do this!" He healed people on the Sabbath, of all things! Years of
tradition had told them that it was not acceptable to do such a thing, that
it profaned God's Holy day. Yet here was this man deliberately going against
God! This must be evil! Have nothing to do with it!
...
I have never been to either Toronto or Pensacola. I do not make the claim
that everything that goes on there is of God. But I do see many people who
seem so concerned that they make sure they don't get misled by error that the
Truth, if it doesn't fit a narrow set of expectations, also is discarded.
Again not claiming anything about this particular instance, but it is
absolutely to be expected that any true move of God will not completely match
our expectations. It is also completely to be expected that many people,
people who are truly seeking God, will reject a true move of God for that
reason.
The group who made this report rejected this as a true move of God because it
did not match their expectations of what a true move of God would look like.
That isn't necessarily a bad thing - we SHOULD expect some things. But it
would be equally expected if this IS a true move of God, so in itself it
doesn't necessarily mean that this isn't a true move of God.
Paul
|
| 35.15 | Gamaliel's Advice | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Fri Feb 21 1997 13:51 | 49 |
| From: A. Strom
Dear friends,
As you can imagine, I have received quite a number of submissions
from List members both for and against, on the 'Toronto' issue. I
have always said that I will not allow this subject to dominate the
List, and I intend to stick to this policy. The only way to do
justice to all these submissions would be to publish a whole bunch
of them, both for and against, but I think this would probably be quite
an unwise course of action, and would go against what I have previously
stated. I deliberately published both one "for" and one 'against'
yesterday, but I think it would be unwise to continue on this way.
I will make one comment, however. Quite a number of the pro-Toronto
emails I received referred to Gamaliel's advice to the Sanhedrin as
being a good attitude for us all to take. (ie. That if a movement is
not from God it will fade away, and that we should not oppose new
movements in case we are found to be "fighting against God"). I can
certainly see the point they are making here, but I am afraid I really
cannot agree. Remember, Gamaliel was NOT a Christian, and he was
advising a bunch of Jewish Priests and Pharisees who seemingly had little
discernment at all. In this situation, I guess this was good advice to
give them. But can you imagine the Christian leaders in the New
Testament heeding similar advice? If there was a strange new movement
sweeping through the church, which they believed could be a dangerous
deception, can you imagine them just sitting back and saying: "Oh, well!
We'll just sit back and see what happens"?? I don't think so!
Right through the New Testament, we see the NT leadership using their
discernment and instantly opposing anything they believed was a
seriously wayward movement or teaching that was trying to infiltrate
the church. Where potential deception was concerned, they did not
follow Gamaliel's path (of silently observing), but rather got stuck
in and exposed whatever serious deception they believed was a threat to
God's people. I believe that essentially, this is what God expects of
us also. (However, I do believe we need to be very careful not to attack
"personalities", or to engage in 'nasty' or slanderous disputes. We
need to stick to the FACTS as much as possible, and "play the ball, not
the man". In other words, we must do our best to expose deception without
needlessly attacking leaders or people where possible). My feeling is
that all we largely need to do is let the FACTS speak.
God bless you all.
Kindest regards in Christ,
Andrew Strom.
|
| 35.16 | | PHXSS1::HEISER | Maranatha! | Fri Feb 21 1997 14:18 | 11 |
| |It is worth noting that in Jesus day, when He moved in ways which offended
|the sensibilities of the people, they jumped to the immediate assumption that
|He was of the devil. Here was this man acting in all sorts of ways that did
|not befit the "Glory and Majesty" of God that they expected of the Messiah.
|He came from a poor and disreputable town, and was born in a manger. He did
|not come as a glorious leader, he came as a humble man, a man who rejected
|the church leaders and fellowshiped with whores and tax collectors and other
|despicable people.
Jesus never contradicted His perfect Word, Toronto and Pensacola have.
Once again, we are reminded that tradition does not equal Scripture.
|
| 35.17 | | PAULKM::WEISS | To speak the Truth, you must first live it | Fri Feb 21 1997 14:47 | 18 |
| > Jesus never contradicted His perfect Word, Toronto and Pensacola have.
> Once again, we are reminded that tradition does not equal Scripture.
In the eyes of the Pharisees, contradicting the Word is PRECISELY what Jesus
did that bothered them, and it was EXACTLY why they stood against him. The
Word says "remember the Sabbath and keep it holy," and "Whoever does any work
on the Sabbath day must be put to death" (Ex 31:15). Along came Jesus and he
directly countered this. He did work on the Sabbath. He healed people. He
picked grain. Oh, he said he had some reasons for it. He said thing about
the Sabbath being made for man and not the other way around. But this didn't
diminish the fact that the Word is very clear: NO WORK, and Jesus was
DIRECTLY contradicting this and was diminishing the Word and the sanctity of
the Sabbath as a result. He was therefore evil, not of God, and must be
shunned, if not outright stopped.
Or so they thought.
Paul
|
| 35.18 | Seducing Spirits | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Fri Feb 21 1997 15:06 | 111 |
| From: bhcante@sprynet.com
Greetings To All:
The following is an exerpt from a prophecy given an the Elim Bible
Institute Summer Camp Meeting in 1965 by the late Stanley Frodsham.
Brother Frodsham was a recognized prophet and teacher in the Body of
Christ whose life and ministry spanned the Pentecostal revival, the
Latter Rain movement, and the early days of the Charismatic Movement.
He is probably best known in his era as the author of "Smith Wigglesworth:
Apostle of Faith".
The Prophesy:
"When I visit My people in mighty revival power, it is to prepare
them for the darkness ahead. With the glory shall come great darkness,
for the glory is to prepare My people for the darkness. I will enable
My people to go through because of the visitation of My Spirit.
Take heed to yourselves lest you be puffed up and think that you have
arrived. Many shall be puffed up as in the olden days, for many then
received My message but they continued not in it. Did I not anoint Jehu?
Yet the things I desired were not accomplished in his life. Listen to
the messengers, but do not hold men's persons in admiration. For many
whom I shall anoint mightily, with signs and miracles, shall be lifted
up and shall fall away by the wayside. I do not do this willingly;
I have made provision that they might stand. I call many into this ministry
and equip them; but remember that many shall fall. They shall be like
bright lights and people shall delight in them. But they shall be taken
over by deceiving spirits and shall lead many of My people away."
"Hearken diligently concerning these things, for in the last days will
come seducing spirits that shall turn many of My anointed ones away.
Many shall fall through various lusts and because of sin abounding.
But if you will seek Me diligently, I will put My Spirit within you.
When one shall turn to the right hand or to the left you shall not turn
with them, but keep your eyes wholly on the Lord. The coming days are
most dangerous, difficult and dark, but there shall be a mighty
outpouring of My Spirit upon many cities. My people must be diligently
warned concerning the days that are ahead. Many shall turn after
seducing spirits; many are already seducing My people. It is those
who do righteousness that are righteous. Many cover their sins by
theological words. But I warn you of seducing spirits who instruct
My people in a evil way."
"Many shall come with seducing spirits and hold out lustful enticements.
You will find that after I have visited My people again, the way shall
become more and more narrow, and fewer shall walk therein. But be not
deceived, the ways of righteousness are My ways. For though Satan comes
as an angel of light, hearken not to him; for those who perform miracles
and speak not righteousness are not of Me. I warn you with great intensity
that I am going to judge My house and have a church without spot or
wrinkle when I come. I desire to open your eyes and give you spiritual
understanding, that you may not be deceived but may walk in
uprightness of heart before Me, loving righteousness and hating every
evil way. Look unto Me, and I will make you to perceive with eyes of
the Spirit the things that lurk in darkness that are not visible to the
human eye. Let me lead you in this way that you may perceive the powers
of darkness and battle against them. It is not a battle against flesh and
blood; for if you battle in that way, you accomplish nothing. But if you
let Me take over and battle against the powers of darkness, than they
are defeated, and then liberation is brought to My people."
"I warn you to search the Scriptures diligently concerning these last
days. For the things that are written shall indeed be made manifest.
There shall come deceivers among My people in increasing numbers who
shall speak for the truth and shall gain the favor of the people.
For the people shall examine the Scriptures and say, 'What these men
say is true'. Then when they have gained the hearts of the people, then
and only then shall Satan enter into My people. Watch for seducers.
Do you think a seducer will brandish a new heresy and flaunt it before
the people? He will speak the words of righteousness and truth, and will
appear as a minister of light declaring the Word. The people's hearts
shall be won. Then, when the hearts are won, they will bring out their
doctrines, and the people shall be deceived. The people shall say,
'Did he not speak thus and thus? And did we not examine it from the Word?
Therefore he is a minister of righteousness. This that he has spoken
we do not see in the Word, but it must be right, for the other things
he spoke were true.' "
"Be not deceived. For the deceiver will first work to gain the hearts
of many, and then shall bring forth his insidious doctrines. You cannot
discern those that are of Me and those that are not of Me when they start
to preach. But seek Me constantly, and then when these doctrines are
brought out you shall have a witness in your heart that these are not
of Me. Fear not, for I have warned you. Many will be deceived. But if you
walk in holiness and uprightness before the Lord, your eyes shall be
open and the Lord will protect you. If you will constantly look unto
the Lord, you will know when the doctrine changes and will not be brought
into it. If your heart is right I will keep you; and if you will constantly
look to Me, I will uphold you."
"The minister of righteousness shall be on this wise: his life shall
agree with the Word and his lips shall give forth that which is wholly
true, and it will be no mixture. When the mixture appears, then you
will know he is not a minister of righteousness. The deceivers speak first
the truth then error, to cover their own sins which they love.
Therefore, I exhort and command you to study the Scriptures relative to
seducing spirits, for this is one of the great dangers of these last
days."
"I desire you to firmly be established in My Word and not in the
personalities of men that you will not be moved as so many shall be
moved. Take heed to yourselves and follow not the seducing spirits that are
already manifesting themselves. Diligently inquire of Me when you hear
something that you have not seen in My Word, and do not hold people's
persons in admiration--for it is by this very method Satan will destroy
many of My people."
God bless you all,
Bill Cantelon
|
| 35.19 | | PHXSS1::HEISER | Maranatha! | Fri Feb 21 1997 15:14 | 11 |
| The Pharisees' tradition did not equal the spirit of the Torah.
If God wanted us to bark like dogs, fly like eagles, hop like rabbits,
maniacally/sardonically laugh until we ache, act like drunks, and be
slain by the Spirit, all in the name of His Holy Spirit, He would've set
Biblical precedent for it.
You know full well that there was precedent for what Christ did. There
is no precedent for Toronto and Pensacola.
Mike
|
| 35.20 | Jesus, the Pharisees, and the Law | PHXSS1::HEISER | Maranatha! | Fri Feb 21 1997 16:42 | 15 |
| This is the very thing that Jesus Christ point out in the Sermon on the
Mount (Matthew 5:17-18). Using 5 examples, He showed how the Law was
being misinterpreted by the scribes and Pharisees and what God meant
when He gave it. In each case, the scribes were applying the Law to a
man's actions when God was judging his attitudes. The whole purpose of
the Law was voided by their misinterpretation.
By applying the Law only to actions, the scribes felt very
self-righteous. However, the Law's purpose was to make the whole world
guilty before God by revealing sin and, thus, drive men to the grace of
God in Jesus Christ. By misunderstanding the intent of the Law, the
reaction of the scribes in their smugness and self-righteousness was
exactly the opposite of what God intended. See also Romans 2:17-23.
Mike
|
| 35.21 | A Vision of Warning | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Fri Feb 21 1997 17:45 | 160 |
| Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 07:13:03 +1100
From: Robert Holmes <rnkholmes@accsoft.com.au>
Subject: Re: Spiritual 'Parasite' Virus?
Dear friends,
I understand that the Toronto blessing is not the main focus of this
list, but I wish to add my hearty 'Amen to brother Peter's insightful
comparison of the blessing movement to greed and a virus. I wish to
add the following revelations to the discussion. The Blessing Movement
is actually now four or five separate streams (Toronto, Pensacola,
Sunderland, Howard-Browne etc). I had these visions back in 1992 well
before the Blessing broke out in late 1994. I partook of the movement
for the first eighteen months, until reminded of these visions by the
Lord, after which I deeply repented of my involvement and got out!
[Moderator's Note: You will no doubt all remember that Robert is
Editor of a widely-known Prophetic Journal ('Construction Sight') in
Australia, and has contributed a number of articles and visions to
this discussion List].
VISION OF THE WELL
I saw a well in the desert, and around it grew an oasis. The well
was always full, right to the brim. People came from every town from
miles around to draw from this well, for it's waters were sweet and
good for many things. I looked and saw people taking their buckets,
filling them up and going home to use it. They cooked with it, they
drank it, and shared it among those who were thirsty. All drank and
were satisfied and refreshed.
Others took the water and hoarded it in their own personal cisterns,
thinking it better to trust in their own makeshift containers than
rely on the well to remain full. They took water from many reservoirs,
including rainwater, and mixed them all together. Others took their
buckets and put them down in the sun. They became distracted by the
business of life and forgot the water they had drawn. When they came
back their buckets were empty.
Others I saw, took their water and poured it out on the desert sands.
It soaked in and evaporated. Others I saw drew from the well and gave
the water to their herds of swine and fowl. These preferred rain water
they had gotten from their rooftops. Others had never even heard of
this wonderful source of water, and never came, and never drank from
it.
Then I saw an abomination among those using the oasis. I watched as
men came in the night and threw stones in the well. They kicked the
sides down, for they were jealous men, full of evil intent. Their
hearts were set on selfish gain, for they had water of their own.
Then one day, and the water was gone. It had dried up and passed away
beneath the sands. The well stones remained as a monument to what had
been, and those who were camped about were grieved that what they had
partaken of had passed away. Deep beneath the sand, the water still
flowed, unseen to the people of the desert.
VISION OF THE BAOBAB TREE
Before me stretched a savanna wilderness, and on it stood a huge,
fat Baobab tree. Within it's pores and fibres many tonnes of water
were stored. This tree stood where a source of refreshment had once
been. Animals of the field, and birds of the sky, lizards and
creatures of the desert came to this tree in search of water. Many
perished beside the tree, for the water was not available to them.
They could not get beyond the hard bark and fibre of the tree, which
now held the water they needed for life. The tree survived in the
arid land, drawing water from what it had stored, but nothing else
survived.
Then I saw a hand come and tear open the side of the tree. Immediately
water poured out across the barren savanna and a river formed. All
kinds of animals came, one by one, then two by two, then ten by ten
then by the hundreds. The water poured out steadily, a stream no
longer bound by the tree and it flowed across the dry plains. And I
heard these words, "Because you were a reservoir and not a spring,
I have torn you asunder".
INTERPRETATION
Both the well and the tree stand for a "source of blessing". One
would hope that they represent the church. The waters (the river
and the reservoir which was supposed to be a river) stand for
"streams of blessing" or the "River of life" terms often used in
the Blessing Movement. The "water passing away" because of grievance.
If the river is taken to be God's blessing, then it's because He
is grieved at the way people have treated this blessing. Because of
the behaviour of some, the river moved back underground.
Some possible causes of grievance are indicated in the first vision:
mixing with non-biblical doctrine, business, wasting the blessing,
failing to partake of it themselves and selfish gain. The root of
the blessing I believe was originally God, however it became perverted
by the greed, selfishness and desire for 'self-exaltation' displayed
by the vast majority of attendees. The second vision HIGHLIGHTS one
of the grievances- that of storing up the blessing. Here the church
is seen as being a reservoir when God intended it to be a spring- a
source of blessing to others. Because it is no longer accessible, it
must be broken, smashed, shattered, destroyed to release revival in
the desert.
God's mercy is portrayed in a warning, He desires the church to move
on. His heart is for those perishing in the wilderness, and He WILL
reach them. If only the church listened while it was still a well-
spring, and warned the inhabitants of the town to use it carefully,
and keep an outward focus (not being selfish) then the second vision
would have been avoided altogether. If only they guarded it against
the evil doers, then it would not have degenerated to such an extent
that the Lord has to destroy the vessel (the tree) to release the
water. The Baobab tree, in reality, has soft pores and animals CAN get
the water. This picture therefore portrays a dysfunctional church.
It is storing, hoarding and keeping the water. Note "the tree survived
in an arid land" but nothing else did. It was made to be a spring of
blessing. It is not functioning properly and the sovereign hand of
God would overcome this dysfunctionality.
WHAT SOME OTHERS HAVE TO SAY
Mike Bickle had a vision back in 1984 which warned that "The butler
and the baker were put in prison, having been charged with putting
poison in Pharoahs food. This will happen over the next ten years,
[sometime] after which there will be a dividing judgment. Between
1984 and 1994 the church will be in chains, imprisoned, it will be
accused and humiliated, down trodden and mocked. After that there
will be a division. Those who walk in the baker's ministry, who
served the bread with MIXTURE, will loose their heads. Those who
serve with the butler's heart, who serve pure wine to the King will
survive."
Rick Joyner also warned in his stunning work "The Hoardes of Hell are
marching" in 1995 that there will come two armies on the earth. The
first army is a hoarde of Christians being ridden by demons of pride,
vain glory, selfish ambition, self-righteousness etc. The second
army he saw was, "the army of the Lord, preparing for battle against
the hoardes of Hell... behind this army was a trailing mob of very
happy people, playing games. They were singing songs, feasting and
roaming about from one watering hole to another, one little camp to
the next. I tried to raise my voice above the clamour of the partying,
and warn them that this was NO TIME for this kind of drunken behaviour,
they said they were not going to war... in the first onslaught I saw
these camps decimated by the enemy, they were totally unprepared"
Robert E Burnell in his work "Escape from Christianity" (published
in 1994) describes the end-time church. He saw two separate revivals
occuring. One is 'Christian City' (churchianity) and the other is
a true revival taking place in the wilderness, the desert before the
gates of the City of God. The fate of the revivalists in Christian
City- the greedy, the selfish, the revellers is made clear, and we
must be very very careful at this time. He says, "Those in Christian
City felt that the growth they experienced in these times was a clear
sign of God's blessing in the last days, the new wine poured forth,
but I saw Christain City invaded and destroyed by the oncoming horde
from the pit... the dead filled the streets and it was holocaust...
the true revival had been completed in the desert, all the thristy
filled and the near dead and dead were raised. They fought the
enemy before the City of God"
God bless you all.
Robert Holmes.
|
| 35.22 | Jesus Did Not Contradict the Torah | CPCOD::JOHNSON | Peace can't be founded on injustice | Fri Feb 21 1997 18:01 | 54 |
| RE: <<< Note 35.17 by PAULKM::WEISS "To speak the Truth, you must first live it" >>>
>In the eyes of the Pharisees, contradicting the Word is PRECISELY what Jesus
>did that bothered them, and it was EXACTLY why they stood against him. The
>Word says "remember the Sabbath and keep it holy," and "Whoever does any work
>on the Sabbath day must be put to death" (Ex 31:15). Along came Jesus and he
>directly countered this. He did work on the Sabbath. He healed people. He
>picked grain. Oh, he said he had some reasons for it. He said thing about
>the Sabbath being made for man and not the other way around. But this didn't
>diminish the fact that the Word is very clear: NO WORK, and Jesus was
>DIRECTLY contradicting this and was diminishing the Word and the sanctity of
>the Sabbath as a result. He was therefore evil, not of God, and must be
>shunned, if not outright stopped.
Paul,
I have no comment on Pensacola (did I spell it right?), but I did want to
say a couple of things in relation to the above. Yeshua, Jesus, did not
contradict the Torah or the Word of the Lord. That would make him rather
schizo and not exactly one with the Father. What he did do was show *certain*
Pharisees that their hearts were not in accord with the Torah they professed
to follow, and their priorities were confused.
This is where a little understanding of 1st century Judaism, and a little
knowledge of the oral Torah can help a great deal. In Judaism, a positive
commandment (mitzvah) outweighs a negative commandment - that is the
"you shalls" take precedence over the "you shall nots". If saving a life, or
preserving someone from harm would cause you to break a negative mitzvah,
such as not working on the shabbat, the positive mitzvah must be done anyway.
This was part of Judaism then, and is still part of Judaism today.
A standard form of arguing a point was to go from a lesser point to a greater
point, and Yeshua used that form of argument when he asked, "If one of
your animals fell into a pit on the shabbat, would you not pull it out?"
(out of compassion for the animal) "Then how much more so should a person be
rescued from bondage?" (And healing does exactly that!) This same thing,
positive mitzvot outweighing negative mitzvot, is present in the parable of
the Samartain who stopped and cared for the man beaten by the robbers and
left for dead. The commandment to have compassion on those in need outweighed
the injunction against being made ritually unclean by coming into contact
with blood or possibly with a dead body - the man that was helped was next
to death and could very well have died while his rescuer tended to him.
The grain issue was simply one of defining what "work" was. Yeshua did not
say, "You're right, we are desecrating shabbat and that's because all those
things God told Moses don't matter and shabbat should be abolished." Instead
he pointed out to them that their emphasis was misplaced - shabbat was made
to be a joy for people, not to be a terribly restrictive burden!
A very good book to read for those who are inclined to learn more about this
is Dr. Brad Young's "Jesus, the Jewish Theologian."
Leslie
|
| 35.23 | Greed Invited the Parasite | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Fri Feb 21 1997 19:28 | 175 |
| From: crmartin@SunBelt.Net (C. Alan Martin)
Subject: Toronto Blessing - A Parasite Virus
I am forwarding this letter to you at the recommendation of a dear
friend (Meri Burlingame). Take from it what you can. Pray about it.
Be open to the Spirit and be wise concerning these things. As we
have always taught: the spirit world is every bit as dangerous as
the physical world. Be wise and cautious about where you go and what
you expose yourself to. Share with me what you think, and walk in
love toward all.
You brother in Jesus
C. Alan
Dear Brother Martin,
The following letter so profoundly dealt with an issue that is being
looked at within the Body that I thought that it was something to be
shared... I know this is a controversial subject....both of the main
ideas which Peter brings up.....yet he does do a very good job of
discerning Christ...and that is always good food for His Children....
and I believe this article is full of God's grace and offers mercy to
those who would oppose this teaching..
A year ago I would not have understood this article at all...but with
the quickening that is going on things are happening so fast that I
have seen the reality of this *parasite* take up residence in many of
the leadership of our nation and quickly spread through whole
congregations. How true of what Peter says... If the heart is truly
filled with the blood of Jesus, there is no chance for it to grow...it
dies instantly.....because such a person lives at the Cross...and knows
no other Life...and recognizes the imitation easily......
Meri Burlingame
This is a letter that was sent to me by Peter in which he discusses
The Fullness of Christ and the Toronto Blessing:
In my last email I mentioned certain forms of witchcraft that were
brought to my attention by a certain member of leadership and
connected with Toronto and Vineyard. I am in no way saying that we
should begin a "witch hunt" in the Toronto blessing. What I am saying
is, let us put on the fullness of Christ and see things that hinder
the furthering of His kingdom for what they are. Let us forsake the
way of this world, and the mold of this world, and the gods of this
world, and seek only after Him -- Jesus -- the fullness of our
salvation.
You see, what I am detecting -- indeed what I have witnessed -- in
this movement of Toronto is that there is most definitely a
*parasite* here, a cancer -- or even ... in comparable terms -- an
Aids Virus in the body of Christ. Now, don't get me wrong. I am not
saying that Christ himself could be corrupted -- indeed, we read that
there is NO DARKNESS in Him. Yet, within these earthly vessels of
ours, the flesh is always trying to find a way to express itself and
masquerade as something pure and holy, something that is of His
Spirit, yet in reality is only carnal and self-centered. As the Bible
clearly teaches -- that which is of the flesh is flesh -- that which
is of the spirit is spirit -- these are contrary one with the other.
Thus, we have something which I find most remarkably similar to the
Aids Virus in the spiritual realm. We have a parasite which
masquerades as something which "fits in" with the body system, yet it
disrupts all of the functions and destroys the agents which are
designed by God to destroy it. It has even gone to the point of
accusing the white blood cells (the blood of Jesus) as being the enemy
to be destroyed. It is truly a model to learn from -- the same thing
is happening in the church -- the body of Christ -- although this
cancer is not fleshly -- it is purely spiritual. It is transmitted
not by fleshly contact -- rather spiritual contact. This parasite
chooses it's victims by what is in the heart of people. If the heart
is truly filled with the blood of Jesus -- there is no chance for it
to grow -- it dies instantly. If the heart is filled with the cares of
this world -- it is an open door -- an open invitation. It is Gods'
way of separating the chaff from the wheat in His people.
Now, before I go any further, I would like to take note of the
sovereignty of God. God is holy, and it is consistent with His character
to judge the nations. On the other hand, it is the utmost plan of God
that none should perish in this world, this is why He sent His Son.
This being said, I do not believe that the Aids Virus is as much a
result of sin as it is a design by God -- that people should turn to
Him in their infirmities. I believe that it is the desire and plan of
Father God that all of mankind's infirmities be healed, no matter what
these infirmities are or how they are caused. Furthermore, I believe
that the reason that the Aids Virus came upon mankind was a direct
result of Gods' mercy -- not judgement -- not an attack by the enemy --
but in order that people might repent and turn to Him.
Thus, "though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him" takes on new meaning.
The same thing applies in the church -- in it's present state. It would
be impossible to understand these things without understanding God--
this is why we have so many conflicts and fears and doubts as Christians.
The real sin is in the church, the real sin is in not recognizing,
believing and administering the power of God available through Jesus --
instead, we have a church that has taken upon itself judgement towards
people in the (deleted) lifestyle and abortion -- and in doing so, has
extinguished the power of God to cure them and deliver them -- as He
desires
As Jesus said" Judge not, lest you yourselves be judged". I believe
that the parasite that we see in the church today is a direct result
of these kinds of judgements made towards certain people and certain
lifestyles. Or worse, accepting the lifestyles and message that they
bring -- that we can do as we please with our flesh -- unrestrainted
pleasures -- licence to kill -- thereby misrepresenting the household
of God -- God forbid !!. As a result, we have an Aids Virus that is
overtaking the body of Christ, if not through one avenue, then through
another. The question remains -- Will Gods' people repent??
Now, getting back to witchcraft. Our culture has some pretty skewed
pictures of what witchcraft really is. We all get a picture of the
Wizard of Oz whenever it is brought out ... the wicked witch of the
west (I'll get you my pretty -- ha-ha-haaa). Well, in reality --
witchcraft is outwardly only a perversion of the gifts of God -- it
stems from selfish intentions. It can do the same things as the gifts
of God allow, and to a certain extent, the same power. However, inwardly
it is an abomination in the sight of God -- and the fruit is also an
abomination -- it is all based on *greed* and not faith. It comes in
many forms and many appearances. You would be amazed at how much
witchcraft there is in the church. The greatest example of witchcraft
in the New Testament is in Acts 8:9-25, of course, with Simon the
sorcerer. He is the one who made the unfortunate association between
the power of God and making lots of money (oops!!) And this man had
supposedly repented and been baptized at the time he made this
assumption!! And the apostle Peter replied "may your money perish with
you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!!
You see, the remnants of witchcraft were still there in this man, even
though this man professed to be a Christian and was baptised. This is
perhaps the biggest hinderance in the church, that prevents the church
from crossing into the miraculous -- with signs and wonders -- as God
would desire. In times past, God freely gave the gift of healing, only
to have it perverted and exploited for personal gain. And has the church
repented of this greed?? I don't see it. In fact I think it has become
much worse in recent days ... I'm confronted almost daily by Christians
who have sold out to the god of this world, based on greed. It's not
getting any better folks.
Greed, not faith. You see it everywhere in our perverted culture.
You see it on TV, you see it on billboards, books, magazines, movies,
our government, you see it in the church. You see it in Christian
web sites. You see it in a lot of email correspondence that is so
innocently and cleverly disguised as "will you pray for this" (some --
not all). It all comes from the same exploitive intentions. Do we
have the Godly courage and convictions to turn to these people and say
"may your money parish with you" just as the Apostle Peter did? I'm
certainly praying for that type of boldness.
Getting back to Toronto. What is the foundation of the message we hear
from this movement? "More." What does "more" mean? Is it more of
Him, as they say -- or is it "more" of this supernatural power that
knocks them off their feet and makes them feel good? Is it based on
faith... or is it based on greed? What are the REAL intentions of the
heart? I can tell you just from the fruit I see and discerned -- for
the most part -- this is a "more" that is based on greed... with a
little bit of faith mixed in just to justify it -- make it a bit more
acceptable by the church and church leaders.
Unfortunately, the greed has invited in the parasite, and the parasite
is destroying the little faith that was there at the beginning. This
is why -- I believe -- as God has shown me -- we will be seeing the
destruction of this movement, perhaps soon -- Lord willing -- unless
there is some deep repenting. Even then, I don't know if God will
restore the "Toronto blessing", just as He exiled Simon the sorcerer.
Of course, that is up to Him to do and to deal with, not me.
May you continue in the steadfast grace and peace of our Lord Jesus --
Peter Berkey peterb@mtsi.com
**************************************
"They overcame him (the devil)
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony".
Revelation 12:11
|
| 35.24 | Suggest Another Way of Looking At Sabbath | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Feb 23 1997 13:40 | 17 |
| Hi Paul,
Of course what it _means_ to not work on the Sabbath could
also be open to interpretation. Jesus didn't seem to go
about doing carpentry. He 'worked' at helping people;
doing His Father's business.
I guess I'm trying to say that there is another way of looking
at this than to see it as Jesus transgressing the Sabbath
commandment.
I don't think healing another person were ever the works being
alluded to, but rather were the works Jesus always wanted done
while other works were not carried out (according to the command-
ment).
Tony
|
| 35.25 | The Acid Cloud | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Tue Feb 25 1997 16:36 | 211 |
| VISION OF THE ACID CLOUD - 1994
by Richard Smith.
The following very significant vision was given to a man in England
back in September 1994. Events have so far proved it very accurate
indeed. (Source: Integrity Teaching Services, 10 Hyde Park Close,
Headingly, Leeds LS6 1SF, United Kingdom).
This vision emerged with an unusually vivid degree of clarity on
Thursday morning the 29th September, 1994, just before I was about
to go out and do some studying.
Following a period of pouring out my distressed feelings about the
condition of the Church to Jesus, who is our heavenly Advocate, I
saw ahead of me a large billowing black cloud which carried lots of
soot and other pollutants. Its sulphurous stench revealed that here
was no natural cloud, but rather it was the type of acid cloud which
arises from the explosion of some chemical plant or oil installation.
Blown by its own momentum, the acid cloud was rapidly heading
towards a low waterless desert plain which lay beneath some rocky
mountains. Filling the plain were all types of people whom I under-
stood represented the Christian population of England. Most were
indigenous white Anglo-Saxons, but there were members of various
ethnic minorities as well. These stood for the immigrant population
in England.
FOUR GROUPS. On closer inspection, I could see that this vast
assembly was divided into four main groups. The first of these was
the one that was nearest to the cloud and was obviously coming under
its influence. This particular group can be known as the intoxicated.
Behind them, closely intermingled together, were the second and
third groups - these can be known as the fearful and the angry.
Still further behind at a little distance was a smaller group who
will be known as the prepared. However, one fact was obvious - the
acid cloud was going to cover all four groups regardless of whether
they wanted it to or not.
It was at this point that I perceived that the cloud was blowing in
from the Westerly direction.
In response to this cloud, the first group were laughing, dancing
and singing. A few of their members were lying prostrate and making
all kinds of animal noises. Some were so deliriously happy that they
actually formed a dance line, which - while they were dancing the
conga - snaked its way into the cloud. With a start, I realised
their mistake. Already intoxicated by invisible fumes emanating from
the front of the cloud, this group were wrongly assuming that the
polluted cloud was a refreshing rain cloud that represented God's
presence. They failed to see what its true nature was.
The second group of Christians saw what the cloud consisted of, but
then panicked. Some ran away and tripped over, knocking themselves
out, while others stood there, frozen to the ground, looking in two
directions at once. Like the first group, they too were swallowed
up by the cloud. Their fundamental mistake was to panic in the face
of evil.
Whilst this was happening, the third group of Christians (who also
saw that the cloud was a menace) stood before it shaking their fists
and making all kinds of angry noises. Some were kicking at it with
their feet. Like the previous two groups, they were clad in light,
flimsy summer clothing. Their mistake was to try to fight the cloud
in their own strength. Consequently, they too were swallowed up.
Moreover, as the cloud ate up each of the three previous groups,
there was silence, followed by earpiercing howls of pain, succeeded
by more silence - which was broken only by the odd intermittent moan
or throaty gurgle which very much reminded me of a First World War
gas attack.
THE PREPARED. However, the fourth group of Christians were getting
ready to deal with the threat posed by this cloud. With urgent haste,
they were donning anti-chemical suits of clothing, clamping on gas
masks and putting on strong safety helmets which had a bright light,
like a miner's lamp, attached to it. Above the lamp (which represent-
ed the light of the Holy Spirit) near the top of the helmet was a
bright red spot. At once I discerned that this symbolised the Blood
of Jesus Christ. It was His mark on this group.
Strapped to their sides were white first-aid cases with red crosses
on them. These carried a wide assortment of medical aids to help
those Christians who had been burned by the cloud. In their right
hands they carried strong transparent riot shields, while in their
left hands they carried various types of weoponry. These were ob-
viously designed to fight the various kinds of principalities which
inhabit the cloud.
Suddenly, at God's own timing, they formed a line, linked shields
and marched at an orderly pace into the cloud. They were obviously
directed by the Lord to do this. It was also clear that they were
called to work very closely together. (Note; later, Richard was
shown that the strategy of this group would be to advance at the
Lord's command, fight strenuously, rescue and minister to some of
the wounded; then stand their ground awaiting the next call for
advance).
BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT. Somewhat taken aback by the implications
of this vision, I then used my mind to apply 1 Jn 4:1-3. In blunt
Yorkshire tones, I said "Do you, the spirit who has brought this
picture so vividly to mind, boldly confess that Jesus Christ is come
in the flesh"? "Yes, I boldly confess that Jesus Christ is come in
the flesh". "Fine, what do you say about the Blood He shed on the
Cross?" "Through the Blood there is forgiveness of sin. It protected
the Israelites from My judgement on the Egyptian firstborn". "Good.
Now let's take counsel together and have some intelligent discuss-
ion. Without repeating all the details that were revealed earlier,
would you please, Abba Father, send your Holy Spirit to complete the
interpretation of this vision?"
THE INTERPRETATION. Still utterly in control of what was happening,
I then slowly took stock of what the Holy Spirit was saying. While
creating a piercing clarity of mind that served to heighten my
intellectual faculties, the Holy Spirit gave me the following inter-
pretation:
1) The acid cloud not only represented what is currently known as
the Toronto Phenomenon, it also represents all that will come out of
that occurrence. The Toronto Phenomenon is so to speak only the
front edge of the cloud. It is paving a way for even more extreme
manifestations of the evil one. In short, "Toronto" can be seen as
a beginning rather than an end.
2) Being blown by its own momentum indicates that within the cloud
there is only what can be described as a hostile alien spirit. It is
the head spirit of many other spirits which inhabit the cloud. More-
over, this alien spirit has been given permission by God to try the
loyalties of Christians in this country. Through a process of sharp
division, which will cause many wounds, it will become really clear
who in the Church is standing by Jesus and who is not. However, some
of those who belong to the first three groups will be given a few
further chances to repent. For a little while, the opportunity to
get back into a right relationship with God will exist.
3) The flat waterless desert plain represents English Society which
is bereft of the Holy Spirit. It may also have some bearing on other
places within the British Isles - even though it is England which is
primarily represented.
Another point to mention is that if the Lord's people had been on
top of the rocky mountains, (which represents nearness to God's
presence) then they would have escaped the influence of the acid
cloud. Their position on the desert plain has left them desperately
vulnerable to the corrosive effects. In other words, being in the
place where Jesus Christ doesn't want them to be has stripped the
Church of many spiritual defences. Far from putting on the armour of
God, it is wearing loose, light summer clothes. Furthermore, being
in the desert place has caused many Christians to seek to assuage
their thirst from the wrong spiritual sources. That is one reason
why the first group greeted the cloud with such enthusiasm. It
seemed to offer an easy way to meet their needs.
4) As was stated earlier, the people in the plain were Christians -
mainly charismatic/evangelical Christians, but there were also a
fair number of representatives from the established denominations as
well. They were conspicuous for their clerical collars, long robes
and self-important expressions on their faces. It was clear that
this cloud is going to have a very widespread effect.
5) As was clearly seen in the vision itself, the four groups rep-
resented four possible reactions to the acid cloud. Only the last
was appropriate to the situation in hand.
In particular, those who stood frozen to the ground looking in two
directions, stood for Christian leaders who were trying to find
expedient diplomatic solutions to what was an impossible situation.
Not surprisingly, most of their supporters were quickly deserting
them - leaving them alone to be swallowed up by the cloud. At this
juncture, I believe the Holy Spirit is clearly saying "beware of
man-made expedients in dealing with the Toronto Phenomenon". What
the Church faces here is primarily a spiritual, not cultural or
psychological problem. Spiritual weapons will be needed to deal
with it.
6) The role of the fourth group, which was the only one really
doing God's will, was two-fold. Firstly it has to use the spiritual
weapons given it to attack the principalities which were in the
cloud. Secondly, it had to help restore Christians from the previous
three groups who had been injured by it. Regrettably, some Christ-
ians they will have to bypass, because they will either refuse treat-
ment or be in such a wild state that it will be impossible to deal
with them.
By no means will all Christians survive the passing of the cloud.
Some will forsake their faith, while others will suffer from perm-
anent physical and mental breakdowns. A few will even lose their very
lives there.
I began to see that the acid cloud was also the cloud of God's
judgement, that will have to pass over the Church until evil is
forcibly removed from it. Only after the acid cloud has done its work
will the Church be pure enough to receive the cloud of God's presence.
This cloud will in turn bring further cleansing and much-needed
revival. However, the time for this second cloud to pass over is not
yet. Any hopes of immediate revival are therefore premature.
This means that taken as a whole, the Toronto Phenomenon does not
represent a time of refreshing, rather it represents what is perhaps
the first instalment of a VERY severe judgement on the churches in
this country.
In a very real sense, the mass of God's people are being handed over
to satan for the destruction of the flesh. Only those who are faithful
to the Lord in all things will be exempt from this judgement - even
though they may be distressed by its consequences. For members of the
fourth group, there is the challenge to stand together and not act as
a group of disparate individuals.
In closing, I believe the Holy Spirit is challenging you who read
this document to decide which groups you belong to - is it to be the
intoxicated, the fearful, the angry or the prepared? Great evil is
coming upon many churches in this country - there exists only a
little time to make this decision.
|
| 35.26 | An Evil Generation Seeks a Sign | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Mon Mar 03 1997 14:41 | 67 |
| From: MPCB@aol.com
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 21:36:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Seeking for what?
Dear Brother Andrew and list,
I am distressed about a certain situation which may be of interest
to someone on this list, judging by the content of many of the
messages I have read. I lead a "home group" affiliated with our
church which meets every two weeks. Most who are involved have been
Christians many years, and we are all good friends.
I have been concerned about a growing trend in the church to equate
manifestations with "revival" and feelings with "anointings." Much
of the controversy over Brownsville seems to center in this area:
Specifically, is the manifestation of emotion the same thing as
revival? To give you a little background about myself, I am probably
more emotional than most people I know. I love to worship God and to
spend time in His presence, to walk and talk with Him, to gather with
His people and to praise Him. But when I see so little discernment
being exercised by people desperate for a "move of God," I wonder if
something is being missed.
I thought that the main reason we are on this earth is to OBEY our
God, to die to ourselves and to do His will, whether we "feel"
anything or not. It seems to me that the crucial element of Christ-
likeness, namely unselfishness, is totally missing. A lot of the
prayers I hear are asking God to do things to us, cleanse us,
manifest Your presence, let us feel Your presence, etc. which are
things He has already done. (I know I didn't say that clearly, but
bear with me, please.) We seem to be so desperate for a moving of
His Spirit that we are not willing to believe His word any more, when
it says that He will never leave us nor forsake us.
He is here. All we need to do is to acknowledge His presence. But
we see people groaning for hours so that they might "feel" His
presence. Why? I think it can all be boiled down to this one thing.
Jesus said that an evil generation seeks after a sign. Isn't that the
root of this whole thing? People are seeking after a sign, because
they seemingly cannot take God at His word. They cannot believe Him
when He says that He has made us one with Himself (I Cor. 6:17) so
they pray for God to "come" to them. He has already sent His Spirit
to live inside us. Our task now is to believe that and to walk in
that. Why are we seeking after a sign?
Our misplaced "faith," if you want to call it that, is in some
feeling or manifestation of the Lord. If we see it, then maybe we
will believe it. But we fail to discern what faith is for. It is
primarily to believe in the indwelling Spirit of God, to enable us to
do the works of God, to speak the words of God, to be His hands and
His feet, to be one with Him, and to do those things we see Him
doing. But we insist that God is "out there" somewhere, and we have
to pray Him down. This is very displeasing to the Lord.
In conclusion, God is not looking for people who have to be
constantly reassured of His love by seeing "signs and wonders."
He wants people who will take Him at His word, and will walk in the
knowledge of His love, and minister that love to others. He wants
people who are so convinced of the reality of His love, that they
will lay down their very lives if necessary in order to obey Him,
whether or not they get anything out of it. He wants a people who
will set their faces like flint and follow Jesus Christ. He wants
people who are not always seeking some manifestation, but are
hungering and thirsting after His righteousness.
Thank you for your kind indulgence. It helped me tremendously to
say these things.
|
| 35.27 | The Timing Is Divine | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Mar 03 1997 15:31 | 6 |
| Wow, I just read this. It is kind of incredible that your
reply came when it did!!!
I concur 100%!!
Tony
|
| 35.28 | | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Mon May 12 1997 13:46 | 73 |
| REPORT DATE: 26 FEB 1997.
FROM: MR MICHAEL O. (-USA)
In September of 1996 the board of elders in our church sent the senior
pastor away for a much needed sabbatical (about a month). As best as
I am aware, he spent two weeks on vacation somewhere in Florida and
two weeks at, you guessed it, Brownsville Assembly of God. He and his
wife came back in very jovial moods. His wife testified how God had
delivered her from depression. They both testified how they had been
slain in the spirit many times during the two weeks they were there.
After he returned others began to go to Brownsville. Honestly, I
hadn't noticed anything strange about these folks. Contrarywise, they
seemed to be more open in their worship to God.
Last Sunday (3 days ago), several young people returned from Browns-
ville. Three of the young ladies (16 year old range) exhibited "the
jerks" and "writhing like a snake" manifestations. None one of
these girls would have ever acted like this before, and two of them
were down right shy! These were manifested in our Sunday evening
service and they were not in control of themselves. They sat in their
pews looking as though they belonged in a mental institution. Many in
the congregation were laughing at what they saw. I confess, I started
to laugh also but did my best to hold it in not deeming the situation
that funny.
On Monday morning during the opening exercises at the
church school (grades 1-12, A.C.E.), my daughter told me that the
normal 15 minute opening exercises lasted over two hours during which
the manifestations of the previous mentioned three girls were passed
over to many in the school. My wife, after hearing this, became very
disturbed and concerned and requested of me that both she and I would
attend the opening exercises on Tuesday, ie. yesterday. The school
went through their pledges, etc and then the pastor preached. His
sermon dealt with getting more of God but to get more of God one would
have to get all their sins under the blood, deny themselves completely,
and make themselves or put themselves in the way of a blessing.
He mentioned that a hindrance to the blessings of God would be if the
students thought: "What would people think if I started "jerking" or
got "slain the spirit". This was quite emphasized even though all the
while the pastor would inject that "this isn't about manifestations".
He also emphasized how the children would be playing a big part in the
revival that was to start in our church. Well, the sermon ended and
then the music started and the altar call began with one student after
another going up to the altar. One thing that was very disturbing is
that only one song was played, a 30 second piece that goes "Anointing,
fall on me, anointing fall on me, let the power of the Holy Ghost fall
on me, anointing fall on me." Remember that the altar call lasted at
least one hour with this song being played over and over just like a
MANTRA! The manifestations began again, beginning with the girls I
previously described and then passing from them over to other children.
Several began to jerk, especially the girls. Why the girls?
The children just went from one to another laying hands on one another.
Beyond what I witnessed on Sunday evening, the following manifestations
were seen: Uncontrollable weeping, staggering, unable to stand, stuck
to the floor, writhing like a serpent, crawling on hands and knees,
mooing, exhaustion. These manifestations are given as manifestations
among those involved with kundalini/shakti on a chart that I have in
front of me. After at least an hour of this, the children went back
to their pews, but not until the music had stopped of course, and they
just sat there, quiet, not saying a word for at least another 1/2 hour.
One of the original three girls stood up and said this was a sovereign
work of God, crying all the time. One of the school teachers said that
it was good for the kids to be resting now, that it was good to rest
after having been in the presence of the Lord. My daughters are not
in school today and they won't be in school any more until this thing
is settled. This is crazy. I've experienced God's power, I've
experienced being baptized with the Holy Ghost, but never in my life
did such experiences leave me exhausted or in a state of bewilderment
like these young people seemed to be in...
|
| 35.29 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Give the world a smile each day | Mon May 12 1997 13:56 | 12 |
|
I wonder what scriptural support was offered for this "annointing"...
Jim trying to recall where Jesus or Paul or Peter (or anybody else
for that matter) was "stuck in the spirit".
|
| 35.30 | | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Mon May 12 1997 14:14 | 108 |
| REPORT DATE: 26 FEB 1997.
FROM: PHILIPPE P. (-USA)
I am writing you concerning a personal experience I had with the evil
spirit in several churches in America. The spirit of the adversary
(2 Thess 2:4) "who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is
called God, or that is worshiped so that he as God sitteth in the
temple of God, shewing that he is God."
I was invited by a friend to visit a church of a great pastor with a
powerful healing Ministry, I had a dream the night before I went. In
that dream I was fighting a big snake with a sort of big knife, during
the fight the blood of the snake fell upon the middle of my head. At
the time I could not understand, even though I knew Lev 17:11, Gen
9:4, Lev 17:14, "For the SOUL of the flesh is in the BLOOD." I could
not believe that the spirit of the serpent could dwell inside of me,
because I was and I am still a Christian. Jesus Christ gave me victory
over my sins, changed completely my life and set me free. I am very
grateful for calvary, I would never willingly forsake the prince of
peace for the powers of darkness.
As planned I went to the church, I could not get inside the church
because it was already filled with people. I attended the service
at the overflow room also crowded, where there were a big screen TV
and some good loud speakers. In the middle of the service, while this
great orchestra with the choir and the assembly of God people were
singing worship songs, the pastor asked every body to stand up and to
lift up our hands. Couple minutes after that I did so, my hands
started to shake and very soon all my body was trembling vigorously.
The best way to describe it is, I was like a tree "shaken of a mighty
wind". Inside the church many sick people testified that they were
healed, and hundreds felt the manifestation of the spirit. In spite
of the dream I was very glad, I said to myself I have received the
Holy Spirit even though I knew what Jesus Christ said in Mc 13:21-22
and in Mat 24: 24-25 "For false Christ and false prophets shall rise,
and shall shew SIGNS and WONDERS, to SEDUCE, if it were possible, even
the elect. BUT TAKE YE HEED: BEHOLD, I HAVE FORETOLD YOU ALL THINGS."
Yet I could not believe that the spirit of the serpent could dwell in
me that easily because I did not invite him. Gen 3:1 "Now the serpent
was more subtle than any beast of the fields which the Lord God had
made."
So since then I had a spirit inside of me, any time I started to pray,
in a matter of seconds the spirit would come, taking control little by
little over my body. The manifestations were so strong, that I think
even if I was entirely crippled, at those moments the spirit could
make me move and walk, because my body was moving with astonishing
strength motions, that I did not do, and that I could not do at that
surprising speed. I went back to this church of this TV Evangelist
four other times only once the spirit did not fall upon me.
I went to two other churches where the manifestations were also
strong. One preacher was so powerful, he does not touch people he only
says something and they fell down and lay on the floor. One could
easily count on the fingers the number of worshipers who were not
"slain in the spirit". On the floor some were doing the "holy laugh-
ter", some were making strange noises, some were shaking and others
were lying down frozen like dead. The spirit in me was making me
gently dance with the songs, but from time to time it was so strong
that I was thrown back violently to my seat, with my head pressed
against the back. If the seat was not behind me I wonder what would
happen to me. I went three times to see the manifestations and every
time the spirit was very strong on me.
One day, while I was at home playing a worship CD of the first
church's orchestra the spirit fell once more upon me. I played more
songs from other Christian artists the spirit was enjoying them, and
was making me dance slowly. An idea came to my mind, I decided then
to test the Spirit. 1 John 4:1 "Beloved believe not every spirit, but
try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets
are gone into the world." While I was on my knees, at the end of a
song I swiftly changed the CD, and played a non Christian song, a
popular dancing song a fast rhythm, the spirit was very glad, and was
making me dance in a very sexy manner, with my hips.
Now no more doubts, I clearly realized that it was the spirit of the
Anti-Christ spoken in 2 Thess 2: 9-12: "Even him, whose coming is
after the working of satan with all POWER and SIGNS and lying WONDERS,
and all deceitfulness in them that perish; because they received not
the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believe not the truth, but had
pleasure in unrighteousness."
Matt 24: 11 "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive
many." 2 Thess 2: 8 "And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the
Lord shall consume with the SPIRIT OF HIS MOUTH, and shall destroy
with the brightness of his coming."
Knowing that I have received an evil spirit in a church was one thing,
getting rid of that spirit or spirits was another thing. How could I
ask Christians to pray to set me free of a spirit that they believe to
be the Holy One? So there I was alone against those demonic powers,
with the knowledge that many churches have already been defeated.
Even then my hope was in Christ, I did not panic I was sure He would
not forsake me. So I did what He said should be done in those cases I
fasted and I prayed, for three days and three nights I was drinking
only water. (Isaiah 58:6) "Is not this the fast that I have chosen?
To loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to
let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?" On the
third night, I was too tired to sleep well, but I had a very short
dream. I saw two huge hands up in heaven, and the right one was
pointing the finger downward at me. I could not under stand until I
read Luke 11:20: "But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no
doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you." Since then the manifestions
of the spirit or spirits ceased, by the grace of God...
|
| 35.31 | Judge not, lest you be judged | RTOOF::CSO_SUPPORT | | Tue May 13 1997 06:26 | 48 |
| I have looked at the notes and would like to remind us all of
something...
The discerning of spirits is important and necessary in Christ's
church. This itself is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
As we all know, Satan is a master of deception and has deceived the
whole world. (Rev.12) However, his desceptions are often layers upon
layers. We often may find one lie and think we have now got to the
truth. But this is often not the case. We may have seen through one of
his lies, but there may be others which we are still believing.
The name devil comes from Diablos, which means two tongues. His main
weapon is accusation. He is the accusor of the brethren (Rev.12).
We can certainly see that some things are not of God, and this may be
true. But do you not think that it may even be Satan which brings
accusation and judgement in your heart against brethren who are
experiencing some things which are from the Holy Spirit, and some
things which are from the flesh? Is this not the same error which Jesus
saw in the religous people of his time? They saw the miracles of Jesus
and the excitement which everyone had and named them the works of
Beelzebub. Now, there may well have been some rejoicing in the soul,
some overreacting of enthusiasm of Jesus' 'fans', yet Jesus did not
condemn his fans for this, but rather those who were doing the
accusing. Jesus taught us not to judge one another, the scriptures also
teach, 'Who are you to judge another man's servant?'. I know that Satan
causes many people to not regard Jesus' words about judging others. He
wishes that we would accuse our brethren, just as Satan himself accuses
our brethren. But we have been called to protect our brethren from
accusation, to be peacemakers.
Everyone is wrong who says that the Holy Spirit is not involved with
some of the manifestations, especially authentic healings. They are
commiting the blasphme of the Holy Spirit when they accredit healings
through faith in the name of Jesus Christ to Satan. This is much more
dangerous than people being so excited about 'feelings' of enthusiasm
which may be of the flesh and not of the spirit.
Certainly, we all must be careful to not just swallow everything, yet
there is an innocence which pleases God when we are as little children,
not judges, and not knowing everything.
I am certain that the Holy Spirit is working, but Satan also. Let us be
careful to catch Satan in his lies, not just 'imitations' of the Holy
Spirit, but also his favorite lie, accusations against the brethren!!!
Rodger Dusatko
|
| 35.32 | Judging/Blaspheming | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue May 13 1997 12:44 | 17 |
| Hi Rodger,
I think judgment in the sense of judging others, includes
condemnation. I think it can be possible to point out what
we discern to be wrong and yet not be judging because not
intending any condemnation.
I also saw your description of what blasphemy of the Holy
Spirit is to be different. To blaspheme against the Holy
Spirit is described as something characteristic of being lost.
I think, in the fullest sense, to blaspheme against the Holy
Spirit is to be utterly closed to the word which, when implanted,
is able to save our souls. To disallow the word/Spirit to work
in us is to blaspheme the Spirit and is characteristic of
condemnation.
Tony
|
| 35.33 | Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Tue May 13 1997 14:58 | 30 |
| Rodger,
Although the term, "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" was not used in
your reply to indict anyone, I feel that a better understanding of
the context in which this charge was made by Jesus is warranted.
As the ONLY sin which cannot be forgiven man, it is a very serious
subject. First, this teaching was given by Jesus within a strict
context as follows:
1. Those accused of this sin were knowledgeable in scripture;
they were "teachers of the law".
2. They knew what they were doing was wrong; they knew who Jesus
was.
3. They issued the charge that His power was from the devil in a
concience attempt to discredit him for their own personal gain.
4. They had no remorse for their actions- they were not concerned
about the consequences.
While it is certainly possible for one to be guilty of judging another
of God's servants in any context, the "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit"
must be a deliberate act by someone who knows what he or she is doing
and does not care. Anyone who is concerned that they might have
unknowingly committed this act and is genuinely worried about the
consequences has not committed "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit!"
Larry
|
| 35.34 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Tue May 13 1997 16:28 | 4 |
| | The discerning of spirits is important and necessary in Christ's
| church. This itself is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
No it isn't a gift, it is a manifestation.
|
| 35.35 | | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Thu May 15 1997 16:48 | 107 |
| From: jim wies <jimmy@dfs.wwia.net>
Hope these latest reports from Brownsville thrill you as much as they
do me!
Sincerely.
Jim Wies
[NOTE: The following email, by a woman who is known to be very
involved at Pensacola, was sent out for public distribution via Jim
Wies' PRO-PENSACOLA List. It is published in it's entirety]
Date: 97-04-26 18:14:15 EDT
From: SisterWOOD
Dear Cathleen,
You asked me what's up.... so....... here goes!
The Gott's (Ken and Lois) from Sunderland England are here..for
conference at Brownsville. (Mrs. Kilpatrick just got home from their
church also...) Well... they seem to have an impartation for inter-
cession and going a bit deeper in the river...!!!
They prayed for the prayer team last night for about 45 min. before
church. It was such a strong anointing. The room was full of everyone
of us behaving as if electricity was charging thru us in huge waves.
Uncontrollable yells were coming out of us... As a matter of fact...
Ouch..they are hitting me as I try to describe it. My head keeps getting
swallowed up by my shoulders in huge jerks as "OHHHH!" comes out of my
mouth as as if my voice and body are synchonized. Last night...my head
seemed to get so much lower than my shoulders that at one point, my head
was in my blouse..ha ha ha ha ha..I am starting to laugh now............
............ whoa............... Oops...there I go again!
Some time between 6:15 and 7:00 my earrings broke off... Who knows how
or when???? Maybe My shoulders did it!!! It all started early on Friday.
yesterday.. when Lila, our head intercessor lead us in some worship.
The Glory fell and we knew that this day was going to be a great finish
to the conference. In the afternoon, Mrs. Kilpatrick talked to the
conference attendees and mainly spoke to the wives of ministers and how
God wants to set them free from the pain and cares they have been under.
We had a time of praying for them and the presence of God was tremendous.
Intercession was taking place for them...and the Glory was there.
By the time the Gott's came to pray for us at 6:15...we had been soaked
in the anointing and were ready to be re-filled. Its funny that God
would send us "More" when we were getting to the point of saying THERES
MORE but sometimes deep inside I was wondering if we really had gotten
all we were going to get and now our mission was to give out what
we had received. We have grown accustomed to feeling the presence of
God at the level we are around on a regular basis. We don't take Him for
granted but we get to the point sometimes where we can "handle" it easier.
Well, after those prayers last night, we were manifesting like we did
in the beginning..only louder. Trying to walk was harder. Going in a
straight line and completely upright was nearly impossible for the whole
night. Staying silent was also nearly impossible. The OH's came without
thought or fore-knowledge that it was about to come. I was assigned to
pray in the Chapel last night. I was excited to pray after all I had
received this week... The people were very hungry to be touched by God.
My partner, Darlene, had been powerfully touched in the prayer room too
so we FELT the presence of God swirling around us as we prayed. Most
people were visibly shaken by the Holy Spirit... we think.... Both of us
seemd to be in a woozy spititual condition and I know my eyes had a hard
time focusing. :-)
Darlene did fall over one time with the person she was praying for..and
I nearly did. The Spirit seemd to rush right through the person being
prayed for and hit the catcher too. My knees kept giving out and I'd
end up in a sqautting postion going "OHHHHHHHHH!"
Elmer came to the chapel to clear us out around midnight but we went to
the main building where it was still packed. Many teams were still praying
so I decided to get prayed for again. I got Pastor Shumway from another
AOG to pray for me. As he turned toward me..I started deep bowing until
he touched my head and then I went electric until I crashed to the floor.
My head was trying to hide in my blouse again.. ha ha ha ha .. my pockets
emptied.. my tags and certs were everywhere. I could see them but I
couldn't get them.
Some people around me tried to help me up but it was no use...My legs
would not hold me up. I don't know how long I was down but when the lights
started going out (Sweet Elmer strikes again!) I made myself get up and
wobbled in a bent over postion all the way to the car. I did the OHHH's
all the way. No one pays any attention to people like me anymore..its
a common sight here but for a prayer team member..who can manage alot
of anointing, its a bit unusual to be so overcome. I had to set my cruise
control on the car to 35mph or else I would find myself slowing down to
20 mph as I boxed the air in intercession all the way home.
I had spent 15 hours at church yesterday...and was never tired like you
might think. AT one point after lunch, I thought.. I need a nap.... but
then I heard that we would be praying for people at 3:00 and that excite-
ment woke me up as the expectancy of seeing God move over these ladies!
I dreamed of being at church while I slept. Jerks woke me up several
times. It was very nice. When I got to the lab this morning and picked
up some photos of the Gott's praying for some others the day before...
I start the bowing and had to stop looking at them in public!!! Instead
of the loud OHH"S.. I had some more quiet EWE"S.. ha ha ha ha... that poor
Lab....they know me by now!!!
I will write about the Banner service and Golden Altar service later..but
since you asked what was UP... I just had to tell you while this is so
fresh!
Love Cathy
|
| 35.36 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Thu May 15 1997 16:55 | 6 |
| That is truly sad.
I Cor. 14:32-33
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches
of the saints.
|
| 35.37 | A Reply to .35 | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Thu May 15 1997 16:57 | 66 |
| From: Korpi <korpi_tlcm@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Brownsville manifestation experiences.
I have been in deepest travail for several hours at a time -- travail
so deep that only groanings could be voiced. And travail so deep that
only silent sobbings could be felt. I have "birthed" many a victory.
I have had an open vision of Jesus (I was wide awake with my eyes
open), and was overcome by power as he anointed me; I could not move for
almost three hours, as I received revelation knowledge from him.
I have "felt" power proceed from God to other people when I prayed for
them. I have prayed for people that have gone down "under the power." I
have cast out demons.
In short, I have experienced the power of prayer and the power of God.
The power always did something -- it always resulted in healing,
deliverance, and deep permanent change. Or, it accompanied genuine
revelation knowledge. It preceded a spiritual victory.
The situation described in this post reminds me of entertainment,
because it describes a "giddy thrill." After everyone is "thrilled" and
"drunk with power" -- what then? What is the point? What was revealed?
How many demons were destroyed? To whom was the Name of Jesus proclaimed?
This post testified only to a series of personal experiences that
thrilled the individual: excitement, physical manifestations, ear rings
breaking, giddiness. What does this "revival" do, besides pass "power"
back and forth from one person to the next?
The power of God is not on a closed human circuit, looping endlessly,
zapping everyone who comes in contact with it to bring them into the
same human circuit loop. The power of God proceeds from the Father, to
achieve a set purpose, and then returns to him having accomplished that
which it was sent to do.
The anointing of God touches the heart with a joy that wells up and
overflows -- it has a gentle sweetness and a depth that transcends
"happiness" or "good times." With that joy comes strength and courage,
not loss of control.
The anointing of God flows easily through the vessel and impacts the
receiver by "zapping" demonic forces and freeing the receiver from
bondage (or healing them). Words of knowledge bring release or
conviction. Hearts experience deep permanent change because of a
transfer of spiritual insight, sometimes only through a look that
pierces the heart. Sometimes by the laying on of hands. Sometimes
through prayer, or even Godly counseling.
God gives his beloved sleep. I have been awakened to pray. I have been
awakened to meditate on a dream. I have even been awakened to battle
demonic forces. But, I have never been jolted awake from my body
jerking uncontrollably.
This post does not resemble any of the deep spiritual experiences I have
had with God, in intercession, or in spiritual revelation. Nor do I see
any of these manifestations outlined in scripture.
Angels of light do not look dark. They deceive by appearing light and
"spiritual." Angels of light put on a good show, and entertain -- but
there is only the barest minimum of substance. And even that is tainted.
Please test the spirits.
Korpi
|
| 35.38 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Give the world a smile each day | Thu May 15 1997 17:01 | 11 |
|
.35
Sounds a lot like Grateful Dead concerts I used to go to.
Jim
|
| 35.39 | Another Reply to .35 | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Thu May 15 1997 17:03 | 26 |
| From: John De Pue <FRYDADDY@mail.hot1.net>
Dear brethren in Christ, after reading the brownsville report from
Jim Weiss my heart sank to the floor and I almost felt phiscally sick.
What can we do what can we say? This same spirit is covering the earth
and is evident in two of the largest pentecostal congragations here in
my home town of Waco, Tx. What has become of spiritual discernment?
What about the warning the Lord gave us about, when they say low he is
here or lo he is there, go not after them!
Why must people continue to think that they must follow after signs,
rather than the Saviour. When we draw nigh to him in our prayer closet
He will draw nigh to us. And the word of God says these signs shall
follow them that believe, not that the believers would follow after
the signs! Furthermore the signs that shall follow the believer are
these, In my name Jesus said,(and doesn't it seem odd we don't hear
his name mentioned in these testimonies) they shall cast out devils:
(odd He mentions this first as it seems to be the greatest need
today); they shall speak with new tounges (not howl like animals.) They
shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not
harm them (praise God for this as I too have visited places like
brownsville and tasted of the waters) they shall lay hands on the sick
and they shall recover.
Let us weep between the porch and the alter, and let us say O Lord
save thy people!(Joel 2:17)...
|
| 35.40 | | ACISS2::LEECH | Terminal Philosophy | Thu May 15 1997 18:54 | 20 |
| .35
I got a very strange feeling when reading this. It was almost like
there was an addictive pattern of sorts, something I would not expect
to come from God. God is not a drug, nor is He a god of confusion.
When Paul, in his visions of apocolypse, came before Jesus, he fell to
his knees... not in confusion, laughter or giddiness, but in fear of
the Lord. The power from the Lord allowed him to stand vs. making him
walk like a drunk. It was a steadying force, not one that caused him
to stumble.
I am greatly saddened by the thought that these people have been
decieved, and wonder what it will take to bring them back should I be
right about my conclusion. I think we need to remember them in our
prayers.
-steve
|
| 35.41 | Look for results! | HLFS00::WILDT_W | Technicians are alone 2 | Fri May 16 1997 10:59 | 44 |
|
Should'nt we look for the result rather the manifestations.
When John the baptist was in prison, he send his diciples to
Jesus asking Him if He was the promised one.
And what Jesus said ! ! !
He could have said that He was, but He didn't.
Instead of this He said look what you see and tell john what
happend.
And then they return to John and tell him.
Cripple walk again, the eyes of the blind got opened.
The gospel is explained to the poor and people are
set free from evil spirit's.
I think we have to look WHAT God is doing!
Never mind about the way's He uses.
Have you ever seen the molecule of snow, they look all
different, not even two are the same.
That's how God is in His way's, every time He use
unother way, He is Creative.
He creates new way's every time.
And the result of what He is doing is the same. People
start to adore God, give Him the place where He belongs
Trust on God, on a God you can't understand, on a God
Who's way's are unknown by you.
You know one thing your final destination is secure,
in His Kingdom, with your Brothers in Christ.
In Him
L.B.W.
|
| 35.42 | The End Justifies the Means? | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Fri May 16 1997 14:15 | 50 |
|
It is interesting to note that all along, it doesn't seem to have
mattered what has been preached in these 'Toronto'- type meetings
around the world. Rodney Howard-Browne himself once reported preach-
ing about 'Hell', and seeing the congregation still exhibiting the
usual bizarre manifestations - mainly uncontrollable laughter!
He has also preached on the 'blood of Christ' on occasion, and it
has made little seeming difference. The same applies to the Toronto
Airport church, and many other such meetings around the world.
Often, there has been almost no preaching at all - only an altar call.
They could probably have preached about life on Mars or Ballerinas
in tights, and it would have made little difference. The falling,
laughter and uncontrollable weeping would still have gone on re-
gardless. Strangely enough, it is clearly not what is being preached
in this movement, but rather the 'spirit' that is at work amongst
the congregation that is the crucial factor. And this spirit seems
to be very easily passed on from one leader to the next. They then
often begin to use their God-given Preaching gift to promote this
new 'anointing'. What a deadly mixture! A God-given gift in preach-
ing, married to a foreign spirit moving amongst the congregation.
Surely the deadliest form of deception.
Much has been made, in the Pensacola movement, of the number of
people they say are being 'saved' or 'going forward' at Brownsville.
It is important to remember that such claims were also being made
for Rodney Howard-Browne and Toronto in the beginning. The questions
I would ask are these: How many of these people are genuine unbe-
lievers from off the street, and how many are just being 'converted'
to this new movement from within Christendom? (ie. they come from
other churches, or have been brought up within Christendom itself).
And are they truly coming to CHRIST for salvation, or are they re-
sponding merely to some kind of emotional high? As one young convert
told an interviewer at Brownsville, the emotional rush he has felt
since his conversion is "better than drugs". But is this a truly
legitimate motive for responding to the eternal gospel of the cross
of Christ? In many instances, is this truly REPENTANCE that is going
on here, or is it something else?
The fact is, these are the "last days",- the days when the Bible
predicts that a great deception will arise (most likely from within
the church itself) that will 'deceive if possible the very elect'.
I wonder if you can imagine a movement that more closely fits this
description, than the one we are seeing sweep through the church at
this present time? For what would it take to 'deceive if possible
the very elect'? As Art Katz has said, "in what ways will future
'lying signs and wonders' be different from that with which we are
presently being confronted?"
Andrew Strom
|
| 35.43 | True Revival | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Fri May 16 1997 15:36 | 41 |
| | Should'nt we look for the result rather the manifestations.
L.B.W., we have looked at the fruit and it isn't healthy. First of
all, God doesn't contradict Himself. This movement contradicts God.
Secondly, it is also reaping bad fruit. It is dividing some flocks; it
causes strife in the church; souls aren't being saved; there is a
large amount of people who experience it that also experience deep
depression afterwards; and there's no focus on the cross and what Christ
has done for us.
This is not even a revival. True revival happens when there is a true
repentance to God among large groups of people resulting in many souls
being saved.
If you examine all the great revivals in scripture and church history,
they all share some basic prerequisites that the church today needs to
be aware of if they hope that revival will come to us.
1. Personal revival - it's been said that if you truly want revival, go
home, kneel on the floor, draw a circle around yourself, and pray that
God will bring revival by starting with the one inside the circle. It
was also noted that many of the church's great revivals have been
started by young people (i.e., teenagers).
2. Restoring & healing relationships within God's house. There's too
much strife in the church today, if you have wronged someone, or someone
has wronged you, apologies need to be made.
3. Rediscover the joy of God's Word.
4. Make a personal decision/commitment based on your response to God's
Word. This characteristic is true of every major revival in Church
history: The Bible is prominent in each one of them!
This is another area where the so-called "laughing" revival falls
short. Typically a minister will read a verse, the laughing starts,
chaos breaks out and the Bible is forgotten.
Many Christians today feel the lack of respect given to the Bible is
what plagues the Church today and renders them ineffectual toward the
world.
|
| 35.44 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Fri May 16 1997 15:43 | 12 |
| | Should'nt we look for the result rather the manifestations.
Well its certainly better to look at the result than the
manifestations. However, I personally would rather look to Jesus
than any of these!
Keep your eyes on Him, lean not on your own understanding, and He
will make your paths straight (Proverbs 3:5-6 parapharased).
Jill
|
| 35.45 | Nevermind the Manifestations? | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Fri May 16 1997 18:28 | 29 |
| .41
The scripture quoted in this entry is Matthew 11:2-5:
"Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he
sent two of his diciples. And said unto him, Art thou he that
should come, or do we look for another? Jesus answered and said
unto them. Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear
and see: The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk,
the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised
up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them."
This is, indeed, an excellent passage to use to evaluate a move
of God, so lets do so by substituting the works of the "Blessing
Movement" into these verses."
"Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he
sent two of his disciples. And said unto him, Art thou he that
should come, or do we look for another? Jesus answered and said
unto them. Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear
and see: the people bark like dogs, they laugh like hyenas, they
are glued to the synagogue floors, and the poor have "The River"
preached to them."
What do you think the reaction of John would have been had his
disciples returned and reported these remarks to him? What should
your reaction be?
Larry
|
| 35.46 | Not That Great | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun May 18 1997 16:35 | 9 |
| re: .42
Hi Larry,
My heart said amen to all that you wrote save I don't think
this is a country mile close to a 'great' deception. Its
too obvious. Deceptions will be MUCH more subtle than this.
Tony
|
| 35.47 | Deception is a "Heart Condition" | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Mon May 19 1997 17:52 | 58 |
| Tony,
It always amazes me that people fall for the same "con" jobs over and
over. Like the one that requires a person to put up a "good faith"
deposit in return for splitting some amount of money found by one of
the parties. At the center of all these schemes in not their believ-
ability, but basic human nature which is always trying to get something
for nothing. So it is with the "Blessing Movement".
Lets look at the "Blessing Movement"; It offers:
(1) Spiritual experiences. Recent polling information indicates that
people, in general, are hungry for some kind of spiritual connection.
There is not doubt that the "Blessing Movement" is able to provide real,
tangible spiritual experiences.
(2) Instant gratification. We live in an age of "instant gratification".
We want what we want and we want it now! The "Blessing Movement" can
and does provide its spiritual experiences immediately and "on demand".
(3) Little or no cost. These experiences appear to be available to
virtually anyone regardless of spiritual maturity or preparation through
the touch of an "annointed one" or, as some have said, by simply lifting
one's hands.
Combine all three of the above in any kind of program and you have a
very enticing product. The fact that Christians are being sucked into
this movement is an indication of the spiritual wasteland that the
Church has become. We (all of us) truly have a "form of religion, but
have denied the power thereof." Because of our spiritual poverty, we
have had to substitute law (scripture only) for wisdom (scripture and
the leading of the Holy Spirit); programs and church hierarchy for the
Lordship of Jesus Christ; and entertainment for the "greater works" of
the gospel which is the power and appeal of our commission.
We think that we are rich because "we are increased with goods and
have need of nothing." When, in actuality, we are all "wretched,
and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." Those that have
followed after the "Blessing Movement" have done so out of spiritual
poverty either because they do not know of another way or because they
are not willing to pay the price required for God's way:
"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire,
that thou mayest be rich, and white raiment, that
thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy
nakedness do not appear, and annoint thine eyes with
eyesalve, that thou mayest see." Rev 3:18
This not just an indictment of those involved in the "Blessing
Movement". It is an indictment of all of us. Many of those who have
been deceived are our brothers and sisters in Christ. We all share
responsibility for the present state of the Church and the creation
of so desolate a spiritual wasteland that such an obvious counterfeit
even warrants mentioning.
Larry
|
| 35.48 | Amen Larry! | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon May 19 1997 18:01 | 15 |
| Hi Larry,
Can I ever say, "Amen" to your reply. I agree 100%. Man,
I have a hard enough time abstaining from coffee (which I
happen to believe God wants me to) so I am most assuredly
a Laodicaean at heart.
How am I ever going to run with the horses if I can't even
walk with the foot soldiers???
Oh man...when will I care enough?
Thanks Larry,
Tony
|
| 35.49 | Don't come when I'm on vacation!!! | HLFS00::WILDT_W | Technicians are alone 2 | Tue May 20 1997 10:58 | 21 |
|
I don't know when 'real' revival begins, but I think it is
near.
When I opened my bible this morning I read a part from the
laws for the jewis and I was to read that God said:
Exodus 23:25
You will serve the Lord your God, and He will bless your
bread and your water.
And I shell let all sickness go away from you.
I know my church and I know God will visit me there,
I know that many brothers and sisters in my church
are sick.
And this bible verse tells me that God say to me:
Don't worry I will come, but first I have to draw
all of you closer to me. And when that's done you
will see because sickness and evil can't exist in
my presents.
L.B.W.
|
| 35.50 | | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Tue May 20 1997 15:45 | 19 |
| L.B.W.
Whether you remain in your current fellowship must be your decision,
but permit me to offer two observations:
1. God wants a personal relationship with us which is not dependent
upon time, physical location, buildings, programs, congregation, etc.,
etc. The fact that "God meets you there" does not mean that He will
not meet you wherever you go, including in your own home. This is
not a reason for staying where you are.
2. Any work of Satan will inevitably become more and more perverse.
The greater your exposure to this desease, the greater your risk of
infection.
May God grant you wisdom in this matter.
Larry
|
| 35.51 | | DECXPS::HENDERSON | Give the world a smile each day | Tue May 20 1997 15:52 | 20 |
|
One of the cases sited in Hanegraaf's book talks about people who
received this "blessing" and referred to themselves as being
"drunk", in some cases "too drunk to drive". He cites one case of
a woman, who left one of these meetings and couldn't drive. She was
stopped by a policeman who wanted her to take a field sobriety check.
As he attempted to open her door he was "knocked flat on his back
and laughed hysterically".
Another woman cites an instance when she came home "still drunk" and
prepared dinner for her family and guests. She was so "drunk in the
spirit" that when serving the meal, she "threw the fish at them" and
scattered the french fries all over the table, all the while claming
God was the source of this behavior.
Jim
|
| 35.52 | Truth test | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Tue May 20 1997 16:35 | 29 |
| "Decision determines direction. Direction determines destiny." - Howard
Hendricks.
1. Do you have a heart open to correction?
2. Do you cherish your opinions more than God's Word?
3. Are you of the opinion that you were born a {insert denomination} and will
die a {insert denomination}?
4. Do you cherish your traditions more than the truth, even if they conflict
with the truth?
5. Do you rationalize your not obeying the truth?
6. Do you get mad at the delivery person or God's messenger?
7. Do you tolerate falsehood of any kind? (cf. 2 John, 3 John)
8. Do you compromise the truth? (cf. 2 John, 3 John)
9. Do you think unity and peace are more important than truth?
(cf. Ephesians 4:21, John 14:6)
10. Would you leave everything (church, job, friends, family, etc.) in pursuit
of the truth?
Absence of desire for truth is evidence of a lost condition. Desensitizing
yourself to truth upon exposure to God's truth is rejecting God.
|
| 35.53 | | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Wed May 21 1997 17:52 | 417 |
| Revival ... or Satanic Counterfeit?
by Jimmy Robbins
Scripture in [] added by
Larry De Groff
While attending a business meeting in Indianapolis, Indiana, I heard
about a revival that had "broken out" in the western part of Florida.
Being a resident of Florida and active in the Lord's work, this news
caused my spiritual antenna to go up immediately. I listened with rapt
attention to the description of this reported revival that began on
Father's Day 1995.
By its description, it sounded like a continuation or duplication of
the widely acclaimed "Toronto Revival." It was reported that some school
teachers and students were "falling to the floor" in their classrooms
after attending this church in west Florida. People all over the community
were being changed by the experience they received at these meetings.
Thousands upon thousands -- in fact, it has been reported that over two
hundred thousand people from all over the United States and many foreign
countries have attended this protracted meeting in Pensacola, Florida.
Those who keep the records report that over fifteen thousand conversions
have taken place.
After returning home to Jacksonville, Florida, I prayed about whether
or not I should attend a meeting. Several days passed before I received
a witness in my spirit that it was o.k. to go and visit. I also discussed
my plans with Brother Thomas. His response was, "Go and see what it's all
about. If God is indeed visiting that place, we'll all go and partake."
God wants us to have an open mind and not judge or castigate something from
a distance, but rather to seek God with all our heart and truly measure
all things in the "light of God's word," and to also try the spirits.
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are
of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
(I John 4:1).
Jesus sent the disciples out in two's, and the word says, "that in the
mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." (Matt.
18:16). Realizing that there is wisdom in the multitude of counsel, I
invited two of my Christian brothers to go with me. One of my traveling
companions was Brother Elmer Enlow, a man of four score years, with a
wealth of experience under his belt. He has been an Army Chaplain, has
pastored several churches, was a college professor, and is a scholarly
man who has seen about everything in his lifetime. My other traveling
companion was Brother Felton Wall, who has traveled all over the world
and also possesses a wealth of experience.
Before our departure, I called the church in Pensacola to get directions
and the schedule of their services. One of the assistant pastors took my
call and was very cordial to me throughout the entire conversation. I
had several questions for him -- they were as follows:
1. Question: "Is this revival related to or similar to the acclaimed
'Toronto Revival'?"
Answer: "No, this is something new the Lord has done in this area and is
growing rapidly throughout the world."
2. Question: "Does a spirit of laughter overtake people during your
services?"
Answer: "Some of the people laugh, however, it is not all consuming and
is not a distraction to the service."
3. Question: "Do people fall to the floor after being prayed for?"
Answer: "Yes, several do, however; some do not. What you need to do is
to come and experience this revival for yourself."
During this brief conversation I was told to come early or I would not
get a seat. The special revival services are on Thursday, Friday, Saturday,
and Sunday nights beginning at seven o'clock.
Bright and early on Thursday morning, February 22, 1996, the three of
us began our four hundred mile journey to Pensacola to witness for
ourselves the reported revival and unusual phenomena that were taking
place there. On the way we prayed together, asking God to give us His
wisdom and keen discernment to know what was of God and what was of the
flesh or the devil. Jesus said, "If any man will do his will, he shall
know of the doctrine, whether it be of God or whether I speak of myself."
(John 7:17).
As Christians we do not have to be in the dark concerning such matters.
Jesus also said, "My sheep follow me for they know my voice. And a
stranger they will not follow, but will flee from him for they know not
the voice of strangers." (John 10:4, 5). I can honestly say that all
three of us were in agreement not to prejudge or come to any conclusion
before we sat through the entire service with an open mind and honest heart.
After having a late lunch and refreshing ourselves at the motel, we were
on our way to the church, prayerfully looking to God that He might have
His way and to keep us in His perfect will during the entire evening. We
arrived at the church at approximately five thirty p.m. on Thursday
afternoon. Much to our surprise people were arriving in large numbers
even at five thirty. I spoke to a young man in the parking lot and asked
if he was a member of this church. He replied, "I feel like a member --
this is my thirty-fifth service since the revival began. However, I'm from
Alabama." This response was not unusual as we soon learned that quite a
few of the people had become regular attendants traveling several hundred
miles every week. Surely something had an unusual power on these people for
them to faithfully return time after time.
At last we were now in the church looking for a seat near the front so we
could hear and see all that the Lord would reveal to us. After we found
our seats, we took note of a steady stream of people pouring into the
building. I asked Brother Elmer and Felton to hold my seat while I
circulated throughout the sanctuary. I wanted to meet as many people as I
could to find out where they were from and why they had come to this
meeting. I must report to you that I met some very nice, kind, and sincere
people from many states with a variety of religious backgrounds. Many of
them had been to this revival more than once and some of them never
before. I later learned that approximately one to two thousand visitors
came to each of the four services every week. All without exception came
for the same reason. They wanted to be "prayed for" and receive a
supernatural experience so they could take it back to their family and to
their church.
Song Service
At seven o'clock the service was called to order by one of the Elders and
everyone was welcomed and made to feel at home. He asked all the visitors
to raise their hands. There appeared to be several hundred if not a
thousand visitors. Everyone was exhorted to give themselves to worship
and to let God have His way in this service. As the musicians began to
play and the singers began to sing I noticed a young woman going down the
aisle and she took a seat about three pews in front of us. Just as soon as
she greeted her friends she immediately began to shake her head left to
right in a boisterous manner. I thought to myself, "Why is she doing that?
Perhaps she has an infirmity, Parkinson's disease, or some type of palsy."
Since I did not know a lot of the songs, I let my eyes scan over the
congregation. I spotted quite a few people (men, women, and children)
jerking their heads. Some would jerk backwards, some jerked side to side,
and some jerked their shoulders as if they were frigid. I pondered,
"Whatever this is, it seems to be spreading throughout the congregation."
From time to time I could hear some laughter sprinkled here and there.
However, it was not so loud as to disrupt the service.
The music gradually got louder and louder and the singing likewise grew
louder. The musicians and singers were extremely talented and were dancing
in a tasteful way as they performed flawlessly for us all. When I say
"performed" I mean as in a professional group that puts on a show for the
audience. However, I must hasten to add that I believe that they were
very sincere in what they were doing. The truth is, there was "no anointing"
on it. I believe that the entire song service was for the most part an
exercise in the flesh. On one occasion, one of the ministers interrupted
the song service to exhort the congregation to "let themselves go" ...
"do not think about what you are doing" ... "just give yourselves
completely to the spirit." My bible says that we are to "sing with the
spirit and with the understanding also." (I Cor. 14:15).
On another occasion the visiting evangelist stopped the song service to
say this: "The devil is here tonight and wants to hinder this service.
Well, I've got news for him -- he has to go. He" (the devil) "has analyzers
here tonight." During the song service this young evangelist glanced at
Elmer, Felton, and myself on more than one occasion. I am sure we were
sticking out like sore thumbs, since we were obviously not taking part in
the "wild frenzy" called worship. He (the evangelist) went on to say, "If
you must analyze, then look at me, look at the musicians and singers, look
at the congregation, look at the person to the left of you and to the
right of you, and just analyze, analyze, analyze -- get it out of your
system. Now let yourselves go: don't even think about what you are doing,
forget about those around you and what they are doing. Release your mind
-- release your spirit -- and let the mighty river of 'The Holy Ghost'
take you wherever He wants you to go." I thought to myself, "Sir, I didn't
just fall off a turnip truck, and although I'm not a genius, I wasn't born
last week either." I certainly wasn't going to open my spirit up to this
"wild, anything goes atmosphere." Jesus said, "Ye worship ye know not
what. But the hour cometh, and now is when the true worshippers shall
worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to
worship him." (John 4:22-23).
Intermission
The worship service, or shall I say the "wild fire service," lasted
about one hour and then we were given liberty to stretch our legs, go the
bathroom, and visit with our neighbors in the congregation. On my way
to the bathroom, in the foyer area, I noticed several tables full of audio
and video tapes for sale. What a coincidence -- all these tapes appearing
just in time for the intermission. Commerce is alive and well in many
churches today.
During the intermission I engaged one of the elders in a conversation
concerning the purported revival. I asked if anyone in the church had
visited the acclaimed "Toronto Revival." He replied, "Yes, the pastor's
wife has visited there." I asked if her visit was before or after the
Pensacola revival began. He replied, "Oh, she visited several months
before our revival began." Do you remember the question I asked the
assistant pastor concerning the Pensacola revival? I asked him if this
revival was similar to or related to the "Toronto Revival." His reply
was, "No, that this was new and not related." What a coincidence! Could
it be that the pastor's wife got the "blessing from Toronto" and brought
it back to Pensacola?
I also asked this elder about the young woman who was shaking her head
so boisterously. He assured me that this was the "power of God" upon this
young woman's life. I asked if she did this only at church or if she
continued to do this in her everyday life? He said, "She only does this
at church." He also told me that several other young people had the same
"gift" or "power" on their life and that it was a great honor to have it.
Pray tell me what glory would or could it bring to Christ to make someone
shake their head violently until they became so dizzy they had to lie down
on the pew? This poor girl got so dizzy she would literally fall down on
the pew every fifteen to twenty minutes and continue to shake her body even
while she laid there. Her friends covered her with a blanket so that she
would not be exposed. After fifteen minutes of lying down she would get
back up to start her shaking again. This cycle lasted for over four hours.
In every case in the Bible when it speaks of palsy (or uncontrollable
shaking) it is either associated with a devil or an undesirable physical
condition. In both cases Jesus and Peter would either cast the devil out
or heal the person. "And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they
brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and
torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were
lunatic, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them." (Matt. 4:24).
If those ministers had "the Power" or any "discernment" they would have
either cast the devil out or healed this pitiful young woman. I must tell
you that I had a strong desire to go and lay hands on her and resist the
devil, however, I knew they would have thrown us out of the service, so I
restrained myself.
Call To Order
After the intermission, I heard the song leader call everyone back into
the sanctuary. The song service was continued for another fifteen minutes
to get the people "back up to an emotional high" for something very
important. It was time for one of the most (if not the most) important
events of the night. It was time to take up "the offering." A huge, six
foot six two hundred fifty pound man came out and gave a very fervent
appeal for a sizable offering. He said that the Lord had revealed to him
that one person would give fifty thousand dollars, and another individual
was to give one hundred thousand. He also said that the total offering
should be in excess of two hundred and fifty thousand dollars.
I believe that the Lord can do anything, but I don't believe that God uses
the "power of suggestion" or psychology to get into the wallets of God's
people. The word says, "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart,
so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful
giver." (II Cor. 9:7). It is a shame and a disgrace the way ministers beg
and plead for money. You would think that God is poor and about ready to
declare bankruptcy if we little humans don't come to his rescue. God is
not poor. "He owns the cattle on a thousand hills" (Psalms 50:10). He owns
everything.
Ministry Time
The evangelist came to the pulpit and read two verses of scripture.
(Rev. 12:10, 11) ["And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is
come Salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power
of his Christ; for the accuser of our brethen is cast down which
accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by
the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they
loved not their lives unto the death."] He spoke for approximately
forty five minutes. Every ten minutes or so he would say, "Don't leave
me now ... just hang in there ... we'll get to the good stuff soon,"
("good stuff" meaning prayer time, when everyone would come up front to
receive the "power" and be slain in the spirit). What could be more
important than the word of God? Jesus said, "It is written, Man shall
not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth out of the
mouth of God." (Matt. 4:4).
A true minister called and anointed by God should never have to make
excuses or minimize the word of God. The apostle Paul preached until
midnight on one occasion because the need was so great and the people
were hungry. (Acts 20:7-11). There is a famine in the land -- not a
famine of bread or of water but of hearing the word of God. (Amos 8:11).
This evangelist took most of his time explaining where he had been and
the experiences that God had given him. He told of a great revival in
England and a great man of God who had thousands coming to his meetings
and people standing in lines for several city blocks waiting to get in.
He told about walking over body after body (people who allegedly had been
slain in the spirit) trying to get to the "great man of God" so that he
too could be prayed for and receive the "power" and be slain in the spirit.
He got his wish. Now, God has called him to the United States to impart
this great "power" and experience to all that come under the sound of
his ministry -- so he says.
The speaker also spent a good deal of time comparing this revival to "The
Great Awakening" during the time of Jonathan Edwards. He was preparing
the congregation to receive an experience or some supernatural
manifestation (more specifically the gift of "supernatural power" via
being slain in the spirit). Could someone please show me in the scripture
where Christians are encouraged or instructed to seek an experience,
power, or some supernatural manifestation? There is no such example in the
entire bible.
"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with
all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13). We are to seek God not an experience.
Jesus said, "An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and
there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."
(Matt. 12:39).
Altar Call
After the message (or shall I say, "the psychological conditioning and
preparation"), he asked all of those who wanted to be saved to come to
the altar. Only a handful came forward. This disturbed the minister, so he
reached deeper into his bag of tricks and gimmicks. After thirty minutes
of begging, pleading, and cajoling he had quite a few up front at the
altar. He did not preach against sin nor did I discern any anointing
upon his message.
The apostle Paul's preaching was quite different: "And I, brethren,
when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom,
declaring unto you the testimony of God. And my speech and my preaching
was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in the power of God."
(I Cor. 1:2,4) After the apostle Peter preached his sermon he did not
beg or even give an altar call. "Now when they heard this, they were
pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the
apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?" (Acts 2:37). Any preacher
that God calls and anoints will have the same results as Paul and Peter.
We shouldn't have to beg or use manmade methods, for it is certain that
his word will not return void. (Isaiah 55:11).
Time For The Good Stuff
After the altar call, the minister began to give instructions to all the
visitors who had come to receive "the power" and be slain in the spirit.
He said that we shouldn't let anyone pray for us unless they were wearing
a purple badge, which identified them as being a part of the official
ministry team. There were approximately twenty-five "Tag Team Duo's,"
one to do the praying and one to catch the candidate (or shall I say the
victim) before they hit the floor. We were reminded again and again that
God was in that place in "mighty power" and thousands had already received
this experience and we too should expect to receive it by releasing our
mind, our spirit, and just simply letting go. I surveyed the congregation
and I saw a "ripe and ready" group of people who were "straining at the
leash," as it were, to run forward and receive what they all had been
waiting for.
All the "prayer teams" were in place. The "wild and fast-paced" background
music was setting the mood and stirring the emotions. There was only one
thing left to do: on your mark, get set, get ready, GO!! When the minister
gave the invitation to come forward, hundreds of people filled the front
and every aisle instantly. This is when "chaos" and complete "pandemonium"
broke out all over the place.
Can you imagine? Loud music playing, over two thousand people clamoring,
prayer teams administering their "magical prayer," hundreds of people
falling to the floor and flopping around like fish out of water, and
those left standing were jerking their bodies in weird ways. If you were
to take away the audio and play only the video portion of this service to
some stranger and ask them to describe what they were seeing, they would
most likely say that it was a "rock concert" where people were doing the
"jerk" (a style of dance) under the influence of LSD and other psychedelic
drugs.
I saw one woman bend slightly over and put her hands on her hips and begin
to flap her elbows up and down and move her head forward and backward like
a chicken. I wasn't close enough to hear her, but it would not have
surprised me if she had been cackling like a hen. Beloved, I don't believe
the Holy Spirit would make people act like animals. I do, however, believe
that an unholy spirit would.
I noticed one of the "catchers" that was behaving in a very strange manner.
He lifted his shoulders up toward his neck and leaned forward, which made
him look like the "hunchback of Notre Dame." As the candidates were falling
he would ease them down to the floor and then he would jump up and down
repeatedly looking to his left and then to his right with a diabolical
smile on his face as if to say, "Oh Boy! Oh Boy! there goes another one."
I could go on and on about the strange behavior that we saw that night,
but it isn't necessary. My bible says, "Let all things be done decently
and in order." (I Cor. 14:40). Elmer, Felton, and I left about twenty
minutes before midnight and the service (or shall I say the "circus") was
still going strong. Only God knows when they all went home.
On our way back to the motel, we discussed our experience and weighed
all that we had seen and heard. "In the light of the scriptures" and we
found it, to say the least, "wanting." I believe that many, if not most of
the people that attended this meeting were very sincere in what they were
doing. I might also add, "the road to hell is paved with sincerity."
Religious man without Christ has a huge void that must be filled with
something. There is something very wrong and very evil about seeking
anything other than Christ our Lord. We shouldn't seek an experience,
manifestation, or any type of phenomenon. Simon the "sorcerer" was rebuked
by Peter for his evil desire for "the power" to do what Peter and the
other apostles were doing. (Acts 8:18-21) The great preacher, Dr. A.B.
Simpson said, "You don't need healing; you need the 'healer.' You don't
need deliverance; you need the 'deliverer.' You don't need salvation; you
need the 'saviour.'"
Summary
In closing, I would like you to consider the following scriptures: "For
there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great
signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive
the very elect." (Matt. 24:24).
"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should
believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth,
but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (II Thes. 2:10-12).
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in
thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many
wonderful works? And I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart
from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt. 7:22-23).
Beloved, I know that I will have to stand before God one day and give an
account of what I have done and what I have said here. I confess to you
that if God calls me home today that I will stand by what I have written
in this account because of what the word of God teaches. I make no apology,
but rather feel it to be my responsibility and duty before God to be honest
and tell the truth. "If ye continue in my word," (not 'signs and wonders,'
not seeking to be 'slain in the spirit,' not anything else) "then are ye my
disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make
you free." (John 8:31, 32).
Make up your own mind: -- does this eye witness account sound like
"revival" or is it a "satanic counterfeit?" You be the judge.
|
| 35.54 | | PHXS02::HEISER | Maranatha! | Wed May 21 1997 19:55 | 10 |
| | Make up your own mind: -- does this eye witness account sound like
| "revival" or is it a "satanic counterfeit?" You be the judge.
God's Word declares it a Satanic counterfeit.
People of the world have somewhat of an excuse for falling to deception
since they reject the authority of God's Word. These so-called
Christians are without an excuse. They are just plainly ignorant of
what the Bible says. It isn't surprising though since far too many
Pentecostal churches don't do a very good job of teaching the Bible.
|
| 35.55 | I'll go away now, promise | POLAR::RICHARDSON | Conformity is freedom | Wed May 21 1997 21:55 | 13 |
| As my wife is deeply involved with this "revival", I must ask you, aren't
you taking an awful big risk in labeling this as Satanic? What if it is
the work of the Holy Spirit?
The religious leaders of the day, unable to explain the power Jesus had
in casting out demons accused him of being Satan. This got them in
trouble, no?
Is there no good coming of this "revival"? This seems to be a rather one
sided discussion.
Don't you need to do more than just read articles before making such
a judgement?
|
| 35.56 | | PHXS02::HEISER | Maranatha! | Wed May 21 1997 22:18 | 44 |
| Hi Glenn! Long time no hear!
| As my wife is deeply involved with this "revival", I must ask you, aren't
| you taking an awful big risk in labeling this as Satanic? What if it is
| the work of the Holy Spirit?
Sorry to hear about your wife. As for your questions, we've been
discussing this for quite some time in here. Most of it is in
CHRISTIAN_V7. The bottomline is that there is no risk in rejecting
this "movement" since there is no Biblical precedent: was not taught by
Christ in the Gospels, was not taught by the apostles in their epistles,
and was not practiced by the early church in the book of Acts. These
manifestations have appeared before within the last 300 years and they
were always rejected as demonic.
| The religious leaders of the day, unable to explain the power Jesus had
| in casting out demons accused him of being Satan. This got them in
| trouble, no?
God doesn't contradict Himself. Christ never contradicted the Law (or
Old Testament). This movement contradicts several portions of
scripture. Here is a major red-flag for those with common sense:
scripture teaches God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, yet
you have to travel to Toronto or Pensacola and have hands laid on you
to receive the "spirit." Look back to the Jesus People Movement of the
late '60s and early '70s - it wasn't limited in scope/geography at all
like this movement is.
| Is there no good coming of this "revival"? This seems to be a rather one
| sided discussion.
Well let's examine some of its fruit: I see frequent reports of clinical
depression from those that experience it, church splits and divisions,
physical wounds and conditions in people experiencing the manifestations.
Doesn't sound like God is behind it to me.
| Don't you need to do more than just read articles before making such
| a judgement?
Sure. I haven't been able to attend those cities so I read eyewitness
accounts and compare them with my knowledge of scripture. They've been
weighed in the balances and have been found wanting.
Mike
|
| 35.57 | Maybe I'm Like Her | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Wed May 21 1997 23:02 | 19 |
| Hi Glenn,
Good to see you in here bro!
If your wife manifests some of the character of Jesus, then
her experience is, in part, genuine. If she perfectly manifests
His character, her experience is fully genuine.
I partially reflect His character. So, if she does too and even
if she's 'done the Toronto thing,' we've something in common.
I would say an *aspect* of her experience is not of the Lord.
But, then again, I'd yoke up with her and say that about myself!
;-)
Take Care and God Bless,
Tony
|
| 35.58 | Fellowship with Him! | HLFS00::WILDT_W | Technicians are alone 2 | Thu May 22 1997 10:56 | 74 |
|
Larry,
> Whether you remain in your current fellowship must be your decision,
For me it's not just remaining in my current fellowship. I left my
Dutch Reformed Church to look for a fellowship where poeple are
handling all things according to Gods Word. In the past years I
have been visitting all kinds of bible study groups, because the
fellowship I was looking for just didn't seem to exist.
Then I get my job at Digital and very soon I got in contact with
Irena Pulkstenis, we have been writing both e-mail and hand written
and she encourage me to look for a fellowship.
She ended up with the address of a pastor through a friend of her
in England and this fellowship was created out of a bible study
group I have been going for so many years, but I lost track of
this group because it disapeared at a time I wasn't going to much
anymore. For me I liked going to that group, but some people told
me that that group didn't exist anymore and I hadn't personal
contact there so for me it ended.
But when I contacted that Pastor I got the complete story, the
bible study group received a message from God that they couldn't
go on as a group like this while the people from this group each
had his own church.
As an answer to God's will they stopped being a bible study group
and they formed a fellowship as a branch of a church in England,
where a friend of Irena is a homegroup leader.
I have been going to this fellowship a few years, but stopped
going for some time, because I didn't feel well there as a single
person and the pastor told me to accept my single state, I just
couldn't!
Now I have been searching mainly be correspondence to a suitable
partner and I found one, or better said God gave me one.
I had to collect her in Maurice which is a 13.5 our flight from
Holland and when she arived in Holland I went with her to all
kind of churches, but there only one she seem to like.
Yes, the one I have been pointed out by God on a so miracular way.
> but permit me to offer two observations:
Of course I permit you to do so!
> 1. God wants a personal relationship with us which is not dependent
> upon time, physical location, buildings, programs, congregation, etc.,
> etc. The fact that "God meets you there" does not mean that He will
> not meet you wherever you go, including in your own home. This is
> not a reason for staying where you are.
I know and my relationship with God isn't what it should be.
But I feel He is working with me to make my relationship more
strong.
My wife has a strong life of prayer, but God wants me not to lean
on my wife, but to get a strong life of prayer myself, not depending
on anybody else.
> 2. Any work of Satan will inevitably become more and more perverse.
> The greater your exposure to this desease, the greater your risk of
> infection.
The only way of not being infected is to be filled by God's Holy Spirit
every day, He will not exept any infection.
> May God grant you wisdom in this matter.
Jesus said this generation will pass away, because a leak of knowledge
With God's Word His Holy Spirit and the Salvation of Jesus.
We have all we could possible need.
L.B.W.(Little Brother Wim)
Wim de Wildt
|
| 35.59 | | PAULKM::WEISS | To speak the Truth, you must first live it | Thu May 22 1997 13:23 | 16 |
| Sigh. I don't have time to write the long reply that is in my heart to write.
I too am disturbed by some of what is going on in these places. I wouldn't
claim that everything that is currently being called 'revival' or 'renewal'
is of God. But I see people being *far* too willing to react against some
extreme situations, and then label the whole thing and everything related to
it as demonic and write it off.
I don't have the cycles to be drawn into a long discussion on this. And
there are parts of the current movement that I wouldn't try to defend. But I
can't just stand by quietly while every move of God over the past 300 years
is denounced as demonic and unbiblical.
Hate what is evil. Cling to what is good.
Paul
|
| 35.60 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Thu May 22 1997 15:27 | 19 |
| |there are parts of the current movement that I wouldn't try to defend. But I
|can't just stand by quietly while every move of God over the past 300 years
|is denounced as demonic and unbiblical.
Paul, that isn't what I said (or tried to say). The bizarre
manifestations happening today aren't anything new. They have appeared
in "revivals" before within the last 300 years. When they did they
were always denounced as demonic. Today, church sects encourage them.
The last great true revival this country experienced was the Jesus
People movement circa 1967-1973. THOUSANDS were being saved and there
was genuine repentance and renewed focus on God's Word as in all true
revivals.
Have you ever stopped to think what killed this great revival? What
new church movement became popular during the '70's? It was the
Charismania movement!!! The unnatural focus and priority placed on
manifestations is what killed our last great revival. When will the
church learn?!!
|
| 35.61 | | PAULKM::WEISS | To speak the Truth, you must first live it | Thu May 22 1997 15:36 | 14 |
| >The bizarre
> manifestations happening today aren't anything new. They have appeared
> in "revivals" before within the last 300 years. When they did they
> were always denounced as demonic.
What manifestations are you speaking about? Does this include trembling,
falling down, speaking in tongues, weeping or laughing almost uncontrolably?
These have been part of all the major revivals that have been recognized as
true revivals.
I too am disturbed by some of the more bizarre recent manifestations, but I
want to be clear what you're talking about.
Paul
|
| 35.62 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Thu May 22 1997 15:36 | 4 |
| btw - I recently saw a video clip of Ken Copeland and Rodney
Howard-Browne speaking to each other in tongues and hysterically
laughing together. One of the scariest things I've seen in quite some
time.
|
| 35.63 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Thu May 22 1997 15:38 | 8 |
| |What manifestations are you speaking about? Does this include trembling,
|falling down, speaking in tongues, weeping or laughing almost uncontrolably?
|These have been part of all the major revivals that have been recognized as
|true revivals.
I know at least laughing and animal noises have always been rejected in
the past as demonic.
|
| 35.64 | | PAULKM::WEISS | To speak the Truth, you must first live it | Thu May 22 1997 15:42 | 3 |
| ALL laughing?
Paul
|
| 35.65 | Truth Mixed With Lies | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Thu May 22 1997 16:25 | 25 |
| Brothers and Sisters
The insidiousness of Satan's approach has not changed since the Garden
of Eden. It depends upon a less than adequate understanding of God's
word and a mixture of lies with truth.
In the Garden of Eden, Eve misunderstood God's command concerning the
Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. She stated that God said that
they could not eat of it or TOUCH it lest they die; God only said, "In
the day thou eatest thereof." Satan, on the other hand, spoke both
lies and truth to Eve when he stated that they would be as gods knowing
the difference between good and evil which was true. However, when he
told her that she would not surely die, he lied.
When I hear individuals say that we dwell on the negatives of the
"Blessing Movement," my first response is, "With God there are no
negatives!" Only with a move of Satan are there positives (truth) and
negatives (lies). Why have we not learned that Satan is also the same
yesterday, today, and tomarrow. The tactics he used to deceive Eve
are the same tactics he is using now- truth mixed with lies. To say
that this is not a deadly potion for the believer is to deny the
consequences of the fall; that through this mixture of truth and lie
sin came into the world, and thru sin- death.
Larry
|
| 35.66 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Thu May 22 1997 16:47 | 12 |
| |ALL laughing?
ALL fits of laughter and sardonic laughter blamed on the Holy Spirit.
ALL uncontrolled shaking, jerking, and falling down too.
Some of this happened during the Great Awakening under Jonathan
Edwards. It disappeared when they kept their focus on Bible study.
John Wesley stated that the first few weeks of revival are pure and
then the tests come to destroy it. He lists many of today's
controversies as the "tests." There are plenty of examples and
precedents that Toronto/Pensacola advocates are ignoring to their
own deception.
|
| 35.67 | The Truth about Joel's Army | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Thu May 22 1997 17:00 | 249 |
| http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~revival/joel.html
THE TRUTH ABOUT JOEL'S ARMY
by Andrew Strom
Why do some seem so keen to promote the concept of "Joel's Army", when the
Scriptures openly declare it to be an army of LOCUSTS that devours and
destroys every good thing in the land?
In recent years there has been much said and written about the
concept of Joel's Army being the great end-times army of Godly
warriors who bring Revival in the last days. However, it is
very clear from the Scriptures that the army in Joel that they
are referring to is actually an army of LOCUSTS which God sends
as a JUDGEMENT upon the land. It is only later, after this army
of locusts has devoured and destroyed every good thing in the
land, and has then been driven into the desert and the sea by
God, that He sends a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit and a
mighty "harvest". In other words, this locust army of judgement
and devastation sweeps through first, and it is only after it
has been driven away to destruction by God that true Revival
can come. This is very clear from the Scriptures.
I have no doubt at all that the book of Joel is truly an "end-
time" book, prophesying a series of events that culminates in
the end of the age and the return of Jesus Christ. It is cert-
ainly a very important book for us to study, and it is clearly
vital that we understand what it predicts will take place in
these last days.
Right from the beginning of Joel, it is clear that this devour-
ing army coming upon the land is a judgement from God: "What
the cutting locust left, the swarming locust has eaten. What
the swarming locust left, the hopping locust has eaten, and
what the hopping locust left, the destroying locust has eaten."
(Joel 1:4). In fact it is clear that it is GOD HIMSELF who
raises up and deploys this army against His own people and the
land: "The land is like the garden of Eden before them, but
after them a desolate wilderness, and nothing escapes them...
They leap upon the city, they run upon the walls; they climb up
into the houses, they enter through the windows like a thief...
The LORD utters His voice before his army, for His host is ex-
ceedingly great; he that executes His word is powerful. For the
day of the LORD is great and very terrible; who can endure it?"
(Joel 2:3-11).
But soon after this we read: "Then the LORD became jealous for
His land, and had pity on His people. The LORD answered and
said to His people, 'Behold, I am sending to you grain, wine,
and oil, and you will be satisfied;... I will remove the north-
erner far from you, and drive him into a parched and desolate
land, his front into the eastern sea, and his rear into the
western sea; the stench and foul smell of him will rise, for he
has done great things.'" (Joel 2:18-20).
And now that this devouring army has been driven away to des-
truction, we read of the great Revival that God then sends upon
the land: "He has poured down for you abundant rain, the early
and the latter rain, as before. The threshing floors shall be
full of grain, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.
I will restore to you the years which the swarming locust has
eaten, the hopper, the destroyer, and the cutter, my great
army, which I sent among you" (Joel 2:23-25).
And now comes that famous Scripture, prophesying the great
'last days' Revival: "And it shall come to pass afterward, that
I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your
daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and
your young men shall see visions..." (Joel 2:28).
After this, Joel goes on to speak about the great judgement
that will overtake the whole earth at the end of the age, and
the return of Jesus Christ to establish His glorious kingdom.
THE FULFILLMENT OF JOEL'S PROPHECY?
In my view there can be little doubt that we have already
entered the period that the Bible calls the "last days" - the
very time that Joel prophesied about (and also the time that
the New Testament speaks of again and again as being a period
of great deception and danger for Christians - even the 'very
elect').
I find it very significant that for years, prophetic ministries
around the world have been shown by God that they would soon
see the rise of "Joel's Army". Many of them have obviously in-
terpreted this to mean an army of anointed ministries that God
will raise up to bring in the great last-days "harvest" of
souls. But as we have seen, in reality, what God has been
speaking of here is the raising up of a devouring army of
locusts, to bring judgement upon the land (the church, I be-
lieve) immediately prior to the genuine Revival. Some have even
been told by God that they will "stand before Joel's Army" (ie.
this army of locusts). But is this really a privilege?
My own belief is that this army of locusts which "devours the
land" in these last days, may well be strongly linked to the
many warnings in the New Testament of a great 'apostacy', with
seducing spirits and 'lying signs and wonders' that will sweep
through the church in these latter times. The picture of a huge
army of locusts devouring everything seems to me to fit very
well with the concept of a great deception or apostacy which
sweeps through the church, likewise devouring everything in
it's path. And the time-frame for these predicted holocausts
seems pretty much identical also.
Jesus Himself declared that in the last days, many deceivers
"will come in my name". He said that the deception of that time
would be so great that if possible even the 'very elect' would
be deceived (Mt 24:24). The apostle Paul prophesied that in the
latter days, "perilous times will come", and that men would be
"lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God". He predicted
that there would be great apostacy involving 'seducing spirits
and doctrines of devils' (1 Tim 4:1). And it is obvious from
the above Scriptures that much of this will arise from WITHIN
THE CHURCH. We are also told in the Bible that in the last
days, those who are not "lovers of the truth" will be deliber-
ately given over by God to 'believe a lie', to come under a
"strong delusion" involving 'lying signs and wonders', etc.
(2 Thess 2:9-12). And of course, as always, such judgement must
first begin in God's own house (1 Peter 4:17).
Many of you who have read my article on the Toronto Controversy
will know that as both a Revival historian and a writer on the
'prophetic', right from the outset I have been implacably op-
posed to this movement which has recently been sweeping through
the church. As I wrote in that article, if Toronto is from God
then why does it seem literally identical to many counterfeit
movements which have destroyed genuine Revivals down through
history? And why are the manifestations absolutely identical to
those found in the occultic Chinese 'Qigong' movement, as well
as Franz Mesmer's occultic healing practise and the "Kundalini"
manifestations found in the Rajneesh and Ramakrishna cults,
etc? Why are such manifestations found throughout the New Age
movement worldwide, and yet nowhere in the Bible?
In some Christian circles today, the "peer pressure" upon lead-
ers to accept this movement (or at least to keep any qualms
about it to themselves) has been quite incredible at times. I
have to say that I have been utterly staggered that such an ob-
viously suspect and 'strange' movement has been able to sweep
through the church so easily, when the Bible clearly warns us
in the last days to BEWARE OF DECEPTION, AND ESPECIALLY OF
"LYING SIGNS AND WONDERS"! Surely it is obvious that we are now
paying a heavy price for all the shallowness and experience-
centred soulishness that we have sown in the years of the
Charismatic Movement. God has indeed seemingly given the Laod-
icean church over to believe a lie, a "strong delusion", and
millions are now falling prey.
It is interesting to note the hidden strategy behind the spread
of this movement in the church. In America, it first gained a
powerful foothold in the "Faith/prosperity" movement through
the likes of Rodney Howard-Browne and Kenneth Copeland, etc. It
was then imported via some Vineyard pastors directly into the
Toronto Airport Vineyard church, which was a far more "accept-
able" platform from which to launch the movement worldwide. (It
also brought the American 'prophetic' movement on-side, as it
is closely aligned with the Vineyard in the USA). From Toronto
it spread like wildfire to England and many other countries.
It had successfully 'distanced' itself from it's Faith/prosp-
erity roots. And now, in 1995/96 we hear of what seems to be
yet ANOTHER version of this movement, right in the middle of
the conservative American "Bible-belt" - the so-called 'Pensa-
cola Outpouring'. Obviously, this version will be far more
acceptable to the conservative Bible-belt Christians, and so
the Leopard changes it's spots yet again, in order to impact a
whole new sub-culture, and distance itself from previous taints
or associations. And who can say where all of this will end, or
what will finally emerge from it?
Joel makes it clear that the great invasion of locusts that he
prophesies for the end times, is to be a form of massive
"judgement" upon God's own people. We are told in the Bible
that 'judgement begins at the house of God' (1 Pe 4:17). And it
is interesting to note that the word 'judgement' very often
involves a 'separating' or a categorising. The sheep are separ-
ated from the goats, the tares are separated from the wheat,
before judgement falls. (So that the righteous are left un-
touched). This 'separating' or dividing is very much a crucial
part of the judgement process. And this is why we can expect
a separating to take place through this current deception, if
it truly is a judgement brought upon the Laodicean church by
God. It is my strong belief that God is using this movement to
"test" His people immediately prior to the great last-days Re-
vival (just as the wilderness tested the children of Israel
before they could enter into the promised land - and only a
tiny remnant survived from that entire generation. The rest all
perished in the wilderness).
In 1984 one of the major prophetic groups in America received a
word from God to the effect that, just like the king's butler
and the king's baker in the story of Joseph, the church would
be placed in a 'dungeon' by God (a place of 'death', of waiting
and of testing) for about the next ten years, and at the end
of this period, part of the church (the butler) would be
raised up as an honoured servant of God, and the other (the
baker) would lose it's head. (Again we see here a 'separating'
before judgement falls). Others, such as Howard Pittman, have
likewise stated that God has shown them that there will be a
process of "culling" before a remnant can be found who will
possess the "promised land" (Revival) in His name. This is ex-
actly the same as what the children of Israel went through (a
process of testing and 'culling' by God), so that only those
who were worthy would inherit His promise. It seems harsh, but
this has simply always been the way. Judgement must always
begin at the house of God.
While I certainly believe that Joel's Army is an army of de-
vouring locusts, I am also definitely a believer in the great
last-days outpouring of God's Spirit upon "all flesh" which is
also prophesied in Joel. This great Revival is clearly to fol-
low immediately after the plague of locusts has swept through
the land. As Joel states, this outpouring is to be a time of
abundant restoration and "harvest". And though the thought of
"Joel's Army" itself doesn't thrill me too much, I do believe
that God will Himself raise up His own 'remnant' army (a kind
of "Gideon's three hundred") when genuine Revival falls, to
gather in this enormous end-times harvest. This is clearly to
be the final great "harvest" in history, immediately prior to
the terrible judgements of the end of the age. Such a great
outpouring of God's Spirit "upon all flesh" just before the end
is entirely in keeping with His character, because as history
shows, He has always brought great mercy before He has brought
great judgement. Therefore if we are nearing the final "great
judgement" of all time, then surely we can expect the greatest
ever harvest immediately prior to it?
As I have recounted in my article on the Toronto Controversy,
God warned us prophetically in New Zealand well before the term
"Toronto" was even being spoken here, that before the genuine
Revival would come a "Laodicean revival" which would involve
laughing, falling, crying, etc. (This was all seen in a very
specific dream by a prophetic friend of mine). After this 'Lao-
dicean revival' had swept through, he saw the beginning of the
true Revival (a separate movement altogether), with thousands
of young people gathered, etc. I believe that this was an exact
picture of what is occurring, and about to occur, in the church
right now. I have no doubt that genuine Revival is now immin-
ent, though clearly only a 'remnant' who have not become
"caught up" in deception will truly play a part in it.
- Please click here to go to the "Toronto Controversy" article by the same author.
- Click here to go to the book, "The Coming Great Reformation" by Andrew Strom.
- CLICK HERE TO RETURN TO THE 'NZ REVIVAL BULLETIN' HOME-PAGE.
Copyright (c) Andrew Strom, 1996. (Please feel free to photocopy).
This article is available from New Zealand Revival Bulletin -
http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~revival
|
| 35.68 | Comparing today's renewal with historical revivals | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Thu May 22 1997 17:01 | 428 |
| http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~revival/toronto.html
THE "TORONTO" CONTROVERSY - DISTURBING NEW FACTS FROM HISTORY
by Andrew Strom.
In this article, a Revival historian, closely aligned with the Charismatic and
prophetic movements, raises the following questions: Why do the Toronto
manifestations seem literally identical to many counterfeit movements which
have destroyed genuine Revivals down through history? And why are they
seemingly identical to the Chinese occultic 'Qigong' movement, as well as
Franz Mesmer's occultic healing practice and the manifestations found
throughout the "Kundalini" cults of Rajneesh, Ramakrishna, etc? Why are such
manifestations found throughout the New Age movement worldwide, and yet nowhere
in the Bible? If these are the days of "great deception" amongst Christians
spoken of in the Bible, then shouldn't we be a little more careful about what
we allow into God's church?
Over the past few years, the movement known as the "Toronto Bles-
sing" has swept through many churches worldwide, particularly in
the Western nations. This movement has brought with it some rath-
er 'strange' spiritual manifestations, which have caused quite a
bit of controversy in the church. The purpose of this article is
to examine the FACTS and the historical data related to this iss-
ue, in as straight-forward a way as possible. I have been study-
ing Revival and Reformation history now for over twelve years,
and I hope that this will help me to provide an informed and
factual perspective.
As is now well-known, the Toronto Airport Vineyard church (home
of the 'Toronto Blessing') was finally expelled from the interna-
tional Vineyard movement in December 1995. This expulsion came
after what had apparently been twelve months of repeated warnings
given to the Toronto church by John Wimber and the Vineyard Asso-
ciation.
I have to say on a personal level, before going any further, that
having witnessed the 'Toronto' phenomena for myself, and having
spoken to many people who have experienced it,- right from the
outset I have personally been deeply disturbed by much of what
I have seen and heard. However, it is time now to take a look at
what history has to say about such phenomena.
As many who have studied Revivals will know, it is important to
remember that not only have there been many genuine Revivals down
through history, but also many "counterfeit" movements as well (a
number of which have resulted in quasi-`Christian' sects that are
still with us today). Even some of the most powerful true Re-
vivals have eventually been infiltrated (or in some cases, "hi-
jacked"), through the devil managing to flood them with excesses
and demonic manifestations, etc. Many of the great Revivalists
came across such counterfeits on a regular basis, and wrote warn-
ings against them. As John Wesley said: "At the first, revival is
true and pure, but after a few weeks watch for counterfeits."
These false or demonic manifestations have often followed a very
distinctive pattern. And alarmingly, I have to say that they have
often resembled 'Toronto' very closely indeed (as we shall see).
The following is an extract from a century-old book by T.W.
Caskey, in which he recalls many of the religious happenings in
the Southern states of America in the early 1800's. This was the
period when many huge `Camp Meetings' were held in the South, ac-
companied by unusual religious phenomena (which they called `re-
vival'): "Some would fall prostrate and lie helpless for hours at
a time... The whole congregation by some inexplicable nervous ac-
tion would sometimes be thrown into side-splitting convulsions of
laughter and when it started, no power could check or control it
until it ran its course. At other times the nervous excitement
set the muscles to twitching and jerking at a fearful rate and
finally settle down to regular, straight-forward dancing. Like
the `Holy Laugh' it was simply ungovernable until it ran its
course. When a man started laughing, dancing, shouting or jerk-
ing, it was impossible for him to stop until exhausted nature
broke down in a death-like swoon..." The same writer goes on to
tell how eventually a few preachers began to question whether
such manifestations really were the work of the Holy Spirit.
Gradually, people began to `search the Scriptures' and `test the
spirits' a lot more than they had been, and these rather
`bizarre' manifestations began to die out.
Another historian has written of the great Camp Meetings of the
eighteenth century (particularly in Kentucky) that crowds would
often "go into trances, writhe on the ground and even bark like
dogs". As is well-known to many who have studied Revivals, such
excesses and counterfeit manifestations have often flooded in
particularly towards the end of a true Revival, when the devil
has been trying to get in and completely destroy or discredit it.
This is precisely what happened with the 1904 Welsh Revival (as
you will see if you read "War on the Saints" by Jessie Penn-Lewis
and Evan Roberts - a disturbing book which probably places too
much emphasis on the devil, but vividly describes many counter-
feit manifestations very similar to what we are seeing today.
Such counterfeits are also examined in Watchman Nee's "The Spiri-
tual Man").
A number of `Toronto' writers have implied that many old-time Re-
vivalists such as John Wesley, Charles Finney and Jonathan Ed-
wards would be quite happy with such manifestations. This is far
from the truth. I have studied the lives of these men, and all of
them were strong "REPENTANCE" preachers who were very suspicious
of any `bizarre' goings-on. When people fell down in their meet-
ings, it was almost always under tremendous distress and CONVIC-
TION OF SIN. This is very different from Toronto.
The great Revivalist John Wesley, who came across many examples
of counterfeit manifestations in his years of Revival ministry,
wrote of one particular occasion: "God suffered Satan to teach
them better. Both of them were suddenly seized in the same manner
as the rest, and laughed whether they would or no, almost without
ceasing. This they continued for two days, a spectacle to all;
and were then, upon prayer made for them, delivered in a moment."
Charles Finney wrote, warning of the dangers of simply `yielding'
to strange impulses or impressions: "God's Spirit leads men by
the intelligence, and not through mere impressions... I have
known some cases where persons have rendered themselves highly
ridiculous, have greatly injured their own souls, and the cause
of God, by giving themselves up to an enthusiastic and fanatical
following of impressions."
And Jonathan Edwards wrote, concerning the supposedly `heavenly'
trances that members of his congregation were entering into under
the ministry of Samuel Buelle (a visiting preacher): "But when
the people were raised to this height, Satan took the advantage,
and his interposition in many instances soon became very appar-
ent; and a great deal of caution and pains were found necessary
to keep the people, many of them from running wild." As Frank
Bartleman (of the 1906 `Azusa Street' Revival) said: "Many are
willing to seek `power' from every battery they can lay their
hands on, in order to perform miracles... A true `Pentecost'
will produce a mighty conviction for sin, a turning to God.
False manifestations produce only excitement and wonder... Any
work that exalts the Holy Ghost or the `gifts' above Jesus will
finally land up in fanaticism." Does it sound like these men
welcomed `bizarre' manifestations to you? Certainly not! They
knew how to discern what was of God and what was not.
In mid-1995, respected international Bible teacher Derek Prince
put out a tape in which he made some very strong statements about
certain aspects of the Toronto movement. Like him, I would like
to state categorically that I believe that humans manifesting an-
imal noises or animal movements is not of God, but rather of the
devil. (In fact, he described on the tape how he had seen many
such animal manifestations during demonic rituals he had wit-
nessed in Africa). And what about the bodily distortions and the
`jerking' that have also become associated with today's Toronto
movement? Is it God who desires to distort the bodies of His peo-
ple so that they look like sufferers of Cerebral Palsy, Epilepsy,
Parkinson's Disease, etc? (Repetitive `jerking' is also seen reg-
ularly in many mental hospitals - ask any psychiatric nurse). I
have to ask the question here: Whose work does all this sound
like to you?
Alarmingly, there are also many exact similarities between the
`Toronto' experience and the demonic manifestations found
throughout the New Age movement and also in many pagan religions.
A number of Indian gurus, such as Bagwhan Shree Rajneesh and Ra-
makrishna, have had the power to transfer a state of rapturous
bliss to their followers merely by touching them. In the case of
Ramakrishna, these states were often accompanied by uncontrol-
lable laughter or weeping. Swami Baba Muktananda also had this
power, according to a former devotee, and the resulting `Kundali-
ni' manifestations included uncontrollable laughing, roaring,
barking, crying, shaking, etc. Some of his followers also became
mute or unconscious, while many felt themselves infused with
feelings of tremendous joy, peace and love.
All such experiences have been based on "yielding" oneself to the
power working through these gurus. Is it any coincidence that the
manifestations associated with these demonic `Kundalini' cults
are almost identical to those of Toronto? Could it be that the
same `spirits' are at work? When Yan Xin, a Chinese `Qigong'
spiritual Master, gave a talk to a crowd in San Francisco in
1991, the San Francisco Chronicle reported that many in the crowd
began to experience what Yan called "spontaneous movements". He
told his audience, "Those who are sensitive might start having
some strong physical sensations - or start laughing or crying.
Don't worry. This is quite normal." Likewise, the demonic "minis-
try" of renowned eighteenth-century occultic healer Franz Mesmer,
was also known to produce many similar manifestations (falling
down, jerking, convulsions, strange grunts and cries, hysterical
laughter, etc).
To me it seems beyond dispute that there has been a powerful
alien spirit let loose in many churches for some considerable
time. Just because the Toronto manifestations have been cloaked
in "Christian" terminology does not mean that they are from God.
The fact is that such manifestations are found nowhere in the
Bible, but rather right through the New Age movement. Surely this
fact alone should have rung alarm bells? If these are the `last
days' - the days of "great deception" and `lying signs and won-
ders', then surely we ought to be a little more careful about
what we introduce into God's church?
Many Christians who have become involved with Toronto have as-
sumed that it "must be of God" because it often results in `inner
healing' or other spiritual experiences. However, such occur-
rences are certainly not proof that this movement is of God. In
fact, the devil specializes in providing virtually identical ex-
periences in occult and New Age groups right around the world.
And as is well-known, "inner healing" has always been one of the
very major emphases of today's New Age movement (while it cannot
be found in the Bible). Such experiences are obviously something
that Satan finds it very easy to manufacture, especially when he
is given the opportunity on such a grand scale. As the Bible
clearly states, the devil will gladly disguise himself as an "an-
gel of light" in order to deceive Christians (2 Cor 11:14). How-
ever, in saying all of this, I do want to make it clear also that
I believe that God has DELIBERATELY ALLOWED this deception to
sweep through at this time, to "test" His church.
One of the most obviously "New Age" aspects of Toronto has been
the emphasis on `switching off your mind', getting your mind "out
of the way", yielding yourself unthinkingly to the spirit that is
operating, etc. I tell you, this exact practise is used all over
the world to open up New Age devotees to demonic influence. It is
dangerous in the extreme. The Bible makes it clear that demonic
spirits are well capable of masquerading as the "Holy Spirit".
This is why the apostle John wrote: "Beloved, do not believe ev-
ery spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God"
(1 Jn 4:1). I am afraid I cannot agree with the idea of `direct-
ing' the Holy Spirit or proclaiming "Come, Holy Spirit!" To me,
such unscriptural practises are bound to lead to deception sooner
or later. But the concept of just `switching off your mind' and
yielding to whatever spiritual impulses come upon you, surely has
to be the most deadly practise of all.
As Jessie Penn-Lewis wrote (in conjunction with Welsh Revival
leader Evan Roberts): "... these demons hover round the soul, and
make strange suggestions to the mind of something odd, or out-
landish, or contrary to common sense or decent taste. They make
these suggestions under the profession of being the Holy Ghost.
They fan the emotions, and produce a strange, fictitious exhila-
ration, which is simply their bait to get into some faculty of
the soul... another person said he felt like rolling on the
floor, and groaning and pulling the chairs around, but he dis-
tinctly perceived that the impulse to do so had something wild in
it; and a touch of self display contrary to the gentleness and
sweetness of Jesus; and, as quick as he saw it was an attack of a
false spirit, he was delivered. But another man had the same im-
pulse, and fell down groaning and roaring, beating the floor with
his hands and feet, and the demon entered into him as an angel of
light, and got him to think that his conduct was of the Holy
Ghost, and it became a regular habit in the meetings he attended,
until he would ruin every religious meeting he was in... The ef-
fects of being influenced by this sort of demon is manifold, and
plainly legible to a well-poised mind. They cause people to run
off into things that are odd and foolish, unreasonable and inde-
cent..."
The above authors also make the following very crucial statement
in the same book: "The false conception of `surrender' as yield-
ing the body to supernatural power, with the mind ceasing to act,
is the HIGHEST SUBTLETY OF THE ENEMY." Surely no-one who is read-
ing this can still be in any doubt as to what spiritual `source'
the `Toronto' movement comes from?
It is well-known throughout Christendom that the Bible speaks of
the `last days' as being a time of great deception and apostasy,
and it is obvious from the Scriptures that much of this will
arise from WITHIN THE CHURCH, so as to deceive the Christians.
(See Mt 24, etc). The Apostle Paul wrote that, "in the last days
PERILOUS TIMES WILL COME. For men shall be lovers of their own
selves... lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God" (2 Tim
3:1-4). And, "the Spirit speaks expressly that in the latter
times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to SEDUCING
SPIRITS, and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim 4:1). Surely, as we
have seen, we are indeed living today in such `perilous times'.
There have been several dreams and visions given to NZ prophets
and intercessors about the Toronto movement. In one particularly
powerful dream given to an Auckland man many months before the
term "Toronto Blessing" was even heard of here, he was shown that
there would be TWO revivals. (This was the same man who was
also given the open vision of the Bride of Christ described in a
previous article). In this dream of the "TWO REVIVALS", he found
himself in a large auditorium full of people. He noticed that
many of those down the front of the meeting were FALLING DOWN
LAUGHING AND CRYING, etc, and the words that were clearly spoken
to him to describe what he was seeing were: "LAODICEAN REVIVAL".
He was then seated with the `little' people in the auditorium,
who had not become really "caught up" in this falling and laugh-
ing, etc. And as he sat there, these `little' people were steadi-
ly drawn away from this `Laodicean' scenario, until there was a
yawning gulf between them and those who were still "partying on"
at the front of the hall. Suddenly, thousands of young people
burst out all around these little people, and they began to min-
ister to them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. The prophet
knew that this was the beginning of the true Revival. Glory to
God!
It is my belief that in many ways the Toronto experience has been
the perfect deception for today's Laodicean church: It cost noth-
ing, it was "instant" and convenient, it conferred spiritual
blessings, `touches' and experiences without any need for convic-
tion of sin, deep repentance or `taking up the cross', and best-
of-all it gave a flagging, powerless church some new "signs" to
prove that `all was well' after all. The real issue that lies at
the heart of this whole controversy is one that revolves around
the very character of God Himself. For it is obvious that we are
being asked to choose between at least two "Gods" here.
On the one hand we have Toronto's version of "God" - a being who
lives to bring `touches' and bodily sensations upon his people,
who loves to "party" with them - to `loosen them up' so that they
cast off all restraint and do foolish things that they would
never normally do. Many of these touches may appear to outside
observers to be `ugly' or even revolting and frightening (similar
to asylum-type mental or drug disorders, etc), but, hey, let's
just get our mind out of the way, relax and enjoy it all! Who
cares if it looks or sounds completely `demonic' (animal noises,
hysterical laughter, bizarre jerking, etc), so long as it feels
good and seems to heal all those past `hurts'? To me, this is the
very essence of the touchy-feely "Laodicean" view of God - a
`God' made entirely in their own image, and for their own con-
venience. Love without responsibility. Mercy without judgement.
A permissive, "Santa Claus" God - perfect for the shallow,
pleasure-loving age in which we live.
On the other hand, there is the God of the Bible: Yes, He is a
God of love, but also of justice and of judgement. Yes, He is a
God of mercy, but also of war and of vengeance,- waiting patient-
ly for the hour when His enemies will be delivered into His hand,
so that He can cast them forever into a living hell. Yes, He is a
God of liberty, but He is also a jealous God, who visits the sins
of the fathers onto the third and fourth generation of those who
hate Him. Yes, He is a God of compassion, but He is also a God of
glorious majesty, might and power. And above all, He is a God of
HOLINESS, who HATES SIN so much that He created a lake of fire in
which to imprison all who have given themselves over to it. And
I tell you now, He is not a God who could in any way be represen-
ted by a movement involving animal noises, drunken foolishness,
hyena-like laughter, or ugly epileptic-type `jerking' amongst His
people.
This is why Toronto was such a good `test' for the Laodicean
church. And frankly, it is my belief that this Laodicean revival
has exposed today's lukewarm church for what she really is - a
sitting duck, completely prone to the most obvious deception from
the enemy - a "happiness club", still desperate for feel-good
touches and blessings after all these years.
Obviously, one aspect that has been particularly alarming about
the Toronto movement has been the tendency to simply abandon the
practise of `testing' spiritual experiences and new teachings
against the Scriptures. The Bible tells us to "test all things",
and of course there is the well-known verse: "All scripture is
inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, FOR
CORRECTION, and for training in righteousness" (2 Tim 3:16). But
how can the Scriptures be used for `correction' if we choose to
"explain away" the need for Scriptural proof of our experiences
and teachings, etc? If we don't use the Scriptures to `test'
things any more, aren't we opening the door to every heresy,
false doctrine or demonic experience in existence? (As history
clearly demonstrates). This "casting off" of the authority of
Scripture, and even of good, old-fashioned common sense, I have
personally found to be amongst the most disturbing aspects of the
whole `Toronto' affair.
In saying all of this about Toronto, however, I do not want to
give the impression that I am opposed to every kind of `unusual'
spiritual occurrence. God Himself often does unusual things in
times of Revival. But there is a certain `character' about them
that stamp them as being from Him. For instance, tremendous con-
viction (which is very common in true Revivals) will often bring
extreme distress over sin (wailing, weeping, etc), `trembling'
with Godly fear, people falling face-down before God, etc. At the
same time, the awesome presence of God will often cause those who
have experienced His cleansing and forgiveness to be filled with
indescribable joy and thanksgiving to God, resulting in demon-
strative, unrestrained worship and adoration of Him.
However, I believe that it will be very important in the coming
Revival for the leaders to stress that true worship involves
"GIVING OUT" to God, not expecting `touches' or blessings "FROM"
Him all the time. True worship is an act of pure and holy `sacri-
fice' to God. This is a very important principle. It is usually
when people begin to seek after `touches' or experiences from
God, rather than seeking Him for His own sake, that counterfeit
manifestations or soulish excesses begin to enter in.
Obviously, as well as Godly sorrow, holy fear and great joy, we
can also expect a genuine outpouring of the Holy Spirit to bring
all of the `gifts' of the Spirit into everyday Christian life:
Powerful healings and miracles, deliverance, word of knowledge,
tongues, interpretation, prophecy, etc. It is also probable that
there will be people genuinely "falling down under the power of
God" (not that we should ever `seek' such experiences), visions,
dreams, angelic visitations, "signs in the heavens", etc. Of
course, a large number of these things can be easily counterfeit-
ed by the devil, so it will be important to have godly leaders
around, who will know how to step in (without being too `heavy'
about it) if things start to get out of hand. The emphasis of the
coming Revival will be on purity, holiness and evangelism, not
the seeking after of `experiences'. And of course, everything
will be centred around Christ. But it is very important that we
do not allow the devil's counterfeits to "scare us off" every
kind of unusual spiritual occurrence, otherwise we could miss out
on what God is doing also.
As I said at the beginning, in forming my opinions about `Toron-
to' I have not just stood afar off, making judgements about this
movement from a distance. Rather, I have personally witnessed
these manifestations for myself, as well as speaking with many
people who have seen and experienced them also. But none of this
has changed my mind. In fact, every ounce of discernment within
me has been crying out right from the start that what I was see-
ing was not of God. I have also read much that is 'pro-Toronto',
but have found myself singularly unconvinced - particularly when
the Scriptural and historical arguments used have been so patent-
ly poor. As we have seen, history clearly shows that such man-
ifestations should be regarded as demonic counterfeits. Having
studied Revival history now for many years, I simply do not be-
lieve that such a conclusion can be denied.
RELATED ARTICLES:
The disturbing testimony of a deacon and his wife, when Toronto flooded into
their church.
"The Truth About Joel's Army" - Article by A. Strom about Joel's army of locusts
that devours the land.
Brownsville, Pensacola:- "Toronto" or not? - by A. Strom. (Plus update article).
BOOK - "The Coming Great Reformation" by A. Strom.
CLICK HERE TO RETURN TO THE 'NZ REVIVAL BULLETIN' HOME-PAGE.
'The Toronto Controversy' copyright (c) Andrew Strom, 1996. (Please feel free to
photocopy).
This article can be found at New Zealand Revival Bulletin -
http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~revival
|
| 35.69 | my thoughts | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Fri May 23 1997 16:19 | 48 |
| I've been wondering about all the conflicting views we've been seeing
here. A few thoughts came to mind. First if there really was a
revival of God, I would expect Satan to try to camouflage it by
creating similar but different manifestations. So I would expect that
some of it is of God and some of it isn't, all mixed together.
Wasn't it during the miracles that God did with Moses and Pharaoh
where the magicians of the time tried to imitate what God did?
Pharaoh said to them can you match that, and they did, sort of. But
God's next miracle was greater. (Do I have the right reference,
someone help me here. I remember something about turning a stick into
a snake?)
Also it brings to mind some of the new age teaching that I have had
some experience with. Basically they say to empty your mind and let
whatever happens happen. What this really is, is inviting anything
that wants to come in, in! Now thats incredibly stupid. However if
you don't believe in demons and evil spirits and all, then you would
see nothing wrong with it. They believe that anything that chooses to
come in is good. We however know better. I wonder about some of the
people at these revival meetings though. Many people who go there
don't really know the Lord or truly follow Him as their Lord. God
says, I never knew you. I take this to mean that even though they
call themselves Christians, not all of them really confess the Jesus
is Lord in their hearts. Its easy to see the people who are more
interested in the "fun" of miracles and feeling "stuff" than in
allowing the Lord to change them. I wonder WHO these people are
actually opening their minds and bodies to?
I would think that if a real Christian went in, asking God to protect
them from any spirits that are not of Him, that they would be safe.
If there is any Spirit of God there, which I would expect, they might
benefit from surrendering to It.
I think the real key to be careful about with all this new age stuff
is where the "power" comes from, and what you allow "into" you, and
WHO you are worshiping. Some of the new age teachings are actually
useful...I mean you *should* surrender - to God. When I first became
a Christian, I was telling my husband about what I was learning about
surrendering to God. He said something that scared me. He said
something about how even non-Christians will surrender their lives. I
responded with, I DO NOT just surrender to ANYTHING!
I'm rambling ...sorry...
Jill
|
| 35.70 | Idols In Their Hearts | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Fri May 23 1997 16:33 | 302 |
| Brothers and Sisters,
I could have placed this article in its own note or in the Prophesies
and Visions note, but I have placed it here because it carries a stern
warning concerning idolatry. The author defines idolatry as follows:
Idolatry is been defined as "A person, object or thing that becomes the
object of excessive devotion", or "an image of deity which is worshipped".
H H Rowley, in his work Faith of Israel makes this pertinent comment,
"Idolatry becomes evident when a people possessing pure worship of God,
become seduced by various ways, and move away from Him".
"Idolatry is an insidious and debilitating disease of the soul which
results in judgement against the idolater. Idolatry is the allowing
of anything which usurps the place of Christ on the throne of our hearts.
..it can just as easily be making peace with our sin (whatever it may
be) so that our consciences become deadened to the piercing of the
Spirit."
Some have expressed the opinion that they can participate in these
"blessing" meetings, observe that something is wrong, but somehow,
have determined that either it is not dangerous, or the Lord will
understand and deliver them from any ill effects; that He will bless them
for the "good" things that are accomplished and shield them from the
"bad" things. Both the Old and New Testament polemic against idolatry
recognise that the idol itself is nothing (Isa 2:8, Psalm 115:4-7) but
behind the idol lies something sinister, an active spiritual force to be
reckoned with. Idolatry is a positive spiritual menace, an active agent
of decline, a force to cause backsliding, not some passive or harmless
pastime (Isa 44:18-20).
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 06:08:28 +1000
From: Robert Holmes <rnkholmes@accsoft.com.au>
Idolatry
By Robert I Holmes
All Scripture quoted NRSV unless specified
"Any of those of the house of Israel, or of the aliens who reside in Israel,
who separate themselves from me, taking their idols into their hearts and
placing their iniquity as a stumbling block before them, and yet come to a
prophet to inquire of me by him, I the LORD will answer them myself. I will
set my face against them; I will make them a sign and a byword and cut them
off from the midst of my people; and you shall know that I am the LORD. If a
prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the LORD, have deceived that
prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him, and will destroy him
from the midst of my people Israel. And they shall bear their
punishment--the punishment of the inquirer and the punishment of the prophet
shall be the same" (Ezek 14:7-11)
Ezekiel, a prophet of the Lord, was approached by some leaders in Israel. It
was often the custom of leaders to consult the Lord's anointed ones in
regards to decisions they made. In this instance, Ezekiel had sought the
Lord about these leaders, for he said of them as they approached "Shall
I let them inquire of me at all?" (14:3). The reason he asked is that he
had been shown the hidden secrets of their hearts. You see, these leaders
had what the Lord termed 'idols in their hearts' and 'a stumbling block of
iniquity before their faces'.
It was a good thing Ezekiel did inquire of God before he answered them a
single prophetic word, for as we read in the Scripture quoted above, the
prophet would have been in some serious hot water! One must ask, what
then is idolatry? What is a stumbling block of iniquity that we should
beware of, lest we, in answering persons who have them, suffer the same
judgement as they for their sin?
Idolatry
Idolatry is been defined as "A person, object or thing that becomes the
object of excessive devotion", or "an image of deity which is worshipped".
H H Rowley, in his work Faith of Israel makes this pertinent comment,
"Idolatry becomes evident when a people possessing pure worship of God,
become seduced by various ways, and move away from Him".
Review of the book of Judges, ch 17-19 shows the explicit results of
idolatry, and the kinds of things which result in a society, family or
person who allows the stumbling block of iniquity to remain before their
consciences. It is a candid story of a perverse and degraded society
which has walked the road of religious corruption (17:1-13), become
entrenched in social unrest and general lawlessness (18:1-31) and ended
in complete moral declension (19:1-20).
Both the Old and New Testament polemic against idolatry recognise that
the idol itself is nothing (Isa 2:8, Psalm 115:4-7) but behind the idol
lies something sinister, an active spiritual force to be reckoned with.
Idolatry is a positive spiritual menace, an active agent of decline, a
force to cause backsliding, not some passive or harmless pastime
(Isa 44:18-20).
Idolatry is thus anything whatsoever, which usurps the rightful place of
Christ on the throne of our hearts. At it's core, idolatry is a grave sin
which constitutes spiritual adultery (Deut 31:16, Judges 2:17).
The apostle John, having urged the finality and fullness of revelation
we have in our relationship with Christ, warns then that any deviation is
idolatry (1 Jn 5:19-21). The idol is whatever claims loyalty which rightly
belongs to God alone (Isa 42:8). Do you think these men, these leaders
were men who went up on the high places and sacrificed on the alters of
Baal? Were they the ones who assembled beside the Asherah poles, or
sacrificed their children to Molech? Probably not. Similarly you will not
find many such persons in the church today however we are just as guilty
as these leaders in Israel of idolatry...!
These leaders of Israel were much more likely to have made peace with
some secret sin in their lives. They had allowed something else to take
the place of their devotion to the Lord alone. They, like all believers,
suffered from some sin which had become a stumbling block. It was possibly
well known to them, yet their consciences were deadened to it.
The New Testament also has something to say about idolatry. For us today,
the warning is against things like bitterness, envy, strife causing,
faction fighting or sectarianism (Gal 5:20) which are listed alongside
idolatry as acts of the flesh. Paul says greed is idolatry (Eph 5:5). He
says, "Put to death, therefore, whatever in you is earthly: fornication,
impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed (which is idolatry). On account
of these the wrath of God is coming on those who are disobedient."
(Col 3:5) and in this he agrees wholeheartedly with Ezekiel. Paul states
that we, as Christians, should not eat with such folk, nor be partners
with them in any way (Eph 5:7, 1 Cor 5:11).
The effects of hidden sin
When we make peace with sin, and allow a stumbling block of iniquity to
remain unchallenged in our lives, we suffer the consequences. The very
first impact is that we can not hear the true voice of God any more. Saul
stopped hearing from God because of this, and it distressed him sorely.
This idolatrous, envious, proud and angry king had inquires again and again
of the Lord, who refused to answer him. He despaired, and finally resorted
to asking a witch what the will of God would be! Saul cried, "I am in great
distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned
away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; so I
have summoned you to tell me what I should do." (1 Sam 28:15). The tribe of
Ephraim, which had wandered from the Lord, and strayed into idolatry
repented, and thereafter they were instructed by the Lord (Jer 31:19.
David knew this to be true also. Sin blocks us from relating rightly to the
Lord. He clearly states, "If I had cherished iniquity in my heart the Lord
would not have heard my cry" (Psalm 66:8). This is the first effect then of
making peace with your sin, and this is possibly what the leaders who
approached Ezekiel had done. Perhaps they were frustrated by the silence of
heaven, and thought they would seek out the man of God for a word, a touch
from the Lord?
But alas, the story does not end with heavens of brass. If we persist in
our sins, the truth is that the loving Lord, whom we serve, and whose name
we have taken upon us, will answer us. He will answer, but not according
to what He wants us to hear. Scripture tells us that He will answer
according to our sin, according to our idols. This was shown to Ezekiel,
"Any of those of the house of Israel who... place their iniquity as a
stumbling block before them, and yet come to the prophet--I the LORD will
answer those who come according to their great idolatry, in order that I
may take hold of the hearts of the house of Israel" (14:4 KJV).
According to their idolatry
The Lord will answer us according to our idolatry, according to that thing
which sits upon our hearts and leads us, instead of Him. He does this to
bring our hearts back to him. Balaam, that greedy and perverted prophet of
Israel had agreed to prophesy against his own country. Balaak had offered
him gold and silver for the work. Balaam was sorely troubled by the offer
and though to ask God himself. Scripture testifies that God answered him
all right, "That night God came to Balaam and said to him, "If the men have
come to summon you, get up and go with them; but do only what I tell you to
do." Balaam got up the next morning to go out to Balaak and Gods anger was
kindled against him. The Lord immediately sent the angel to oppose him
(Num 22:20-22).
Ahab was perhaps the most idolatrous and evil king Israel had ever known.
He and his wife Jezebel single handedly perverted the entire nation except
for a few thousand faithful. We see Ahab inquiring of God regarding his
desire to do battle at Ramoth-Gidead. He asked the prophets of Israel to
tell him the mind of the Lord on the matter. The prophets confirmed his
desire to go up, and he was killed in battle the very next day (1 Kings
22:37).
The idolatrous and unbelieving generation of Israelites, who wandered in
the desert, cried out to God for meat to eat. He answered their prayer
wonderfully, by providing quail. They munched merrily upon the bird's
flesh, thinking "God is with us, for surly he has heard our cry" and while
the flesh was still between their teeth... the anger of the Lord was
kindled against them and he struck them with a plague! (Num 11:33). So it
is with us, God himself will answer us according to our idolatry and our
hidden sin if we have made peace with it and cling to it in our hearts.
Beware advising such people
Remember Ahab asking the advise of the prophets? We know from the passage
in Ezekiel that "If a prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the LORD,
have deceived that prophet". God sent a lying spirit to deceive the
prophets and confirm His judgement against Ahab (1 Kings 22:20-22). These
prophets were not careful about the subject of their ministry. Unlike
Ezekiel who inquired after the state of the leadership's heart, these
prophets launched out, and became deceived.
So to, Micaiah had to fight against this deception. He was later called
upon to bear witness to the Lord's will to good king Jehoshaphat (who had
become a partner with Ahab in the plan to do battle). Remember Paul's
warning not to become coupled with such folk? Here is Michaiah calling
upon the Lord to give His judgement, and the first words from his lips
were deception (1 Kings 22:15)! Jehoshaphat challenged him on the spot,
knowing he lied, and demanded he tell the truth.
The point is this, we must not be drawn into answering persons who are in
such a state. We should always first ask the Lord about the state of the
inquirers heart. If you are drawn to prophesy the Lord's will to an
idolatrous person, beware, for you shall become deceived and prophesy a
lie to them, confirming them in their judgement and thus bringing yourself
under the very same judgement. As Ezekiel was warned, "and I will stretch
out my hand against him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people
Israel. And they shall bear their punishment--the punishment of the
inquirer and the punishment of the prophet shall be the same."
This is also a New Testament concept, as Paul warned the Thessalonians,
"The coming of the lawless one is apparent in the working of Satan, who
uses all power, signs, lying wonders, and every kind of wicked deception
for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and
so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion, leading
them to believe what is false, so that all who have not believed the truth
but took pleasure in unrighteousness will be condemned." (2 Th 2:9-11).
Our responsibility
It is the perogative of those who minister prophetically, to inquire of
God as to the state of a man's heart. This is after all one aspect of the
prophetic ministry. Paul told the Corinthians that should an unbeliever
enter a meeting when people are prophesying, "the secrets of the
unbeliever's heart will be disclosed, that person will bow down before God
and worship him," (1 Cor 14:25). We must never go along with, endorse
or support those who are persisting in their sin, let alone prophesy to
them. There is only one measure of communication the Lord will enter into
with such people, and that is judgment. He will answer according to their
great idolatry.
The prophetic minister may be used of God to pronounce the judgement
against them. Jeremiah rebuked king Zedekiah, who inquired of him three
times about the Lord's will. In each case the answer was judgement (2 Chr
36:12, Jer 37:12). This king did what was evil in the Lord's sight, he
persisted in evil, became proud, arrogant, hard hearted and rebellious.
Elijah was used to pronounce judgement on evil king Jehoram. He spoke to
the king about his demise (2 Chr 21:10-11) after a lifetime of idolatry.
You also may be used of God to speak to idolatrous people in the church,
but be aware that the message, biblically, must then fall into this
category of reply, and not some 'word from the Lord' as blessing.
Mercy triumphs over judgement
Remember however, that God is merciful and kind. Mercy always triumphs
over judgement (Jas 2:13). The prophet Shemaiah brought word of God's
retributive justice against the idolatrous king Rehoboam, and upon hearing
it he was distressed. He and all his men repented wholeheartedly, and the
Lord diverted his judgement against them (2 Chr 12:6-8). Likewise Manessah
made his son pass through fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom,
practiced soothsaying, augury, sorcery, dealt with mediums & wizards and
did much evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger. Yet when
the Lord rebuked him, he repented wholeheartedly and was restored (2 Chr
33:13). So to, if we repent earnestly we may be restored.
Conclusion
Idolatry is an insidious and debilitating disease of the soul which results
in judgement against the idolater. Idolatry is the allowing of anything
which usurps the place of Christ on the throne of our hearts. This includes
such evils as greed, envy, bitterness, strife or sectarianism but it can
just as easily be making peace with our sin (whatever it may be) so that
our consciences become deadened to the piercing of the Spirit.
The effect of failing to repent of this secret sin is twofold, firstly we
are cut off from hearing the voice of God. Though we hear confirmation to
continue in our course of action, yet it will result in our own destruction.
The second is that should we persist in it, we shall in fact hear directly
from the Lord, as He speaks in judgement against us. This judgement is
aimed at bringing us to repentance and a turning around toward Him, because
He is merciful and just.
We, as people who minister prophetically to others must be wise like
Ezekiel and ask the Lord about the state of inquirer's heart before
answering them. If we answer an idolater then we will come under the same
judgement as they. It is our perogative to ask God, and He will indeed
show us, or make known the secrets of their heart.
The only true word we will be able to deliver as being from God to those
who are unrepentant in their sin, is a word of judgement. We can expect God
to ask us to speak to the idolater directly, as He has throughout the
ages. People of God, we must beware of making peace with our own sin. Let
us seek God earnestly for anything which may have become an object of
excessive devotion to us. Ask yourself, "Is there any sin which I no
longer have a nagging conscience about? Is there some sin which I know the
bible speaks against, and with which the Lord is displeased yet which I
have heard some confirmation about continuing in?" If this is so, we must
repent immediately, lest the judgement of God come against us. God is
merciful and just, if we earnestly repent, He will forgive us our sins.
Acknowledgements
Lods, Allmen and Pederson, The Illustrated Bible Dictionary, volume two,
"Idolatry"
Rowley, H.H. "Faith of Israel" (1956) pp 74
Wilkerson, D. "The Stumbling Block of Iniquity" Times Square Pulpit Series,
Feb 1997.
|
| 35.71 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Fri May 23 1997 16:42 | 22 |
| I think I know what you're saying, Jill, but doesn't a Satanic
counterfeit imply you have to have a Biblical precedent where God is
using the real deal? If there is no real deal, then you don't have a
Satanic counterfeit.
Now that this has crept into (and been endorsed by their HQ) my old
denomination (Assemblies of God), I personally know several people who
have experienced "holy laughter," "shaking," and "drunkenness." While
I was with them, I knew several who were "slain in the spirit" too.
The majority of them are also followers of people in the "Name it and
Claim it" Faith movement like Benny Hinn, Ken Copeland, Ken Hagin,
Marilyn Hickey, Jerry Savelle, Paul Crouch, and John Avanzini. They
are seekers of experiences; it is sort of an emotional/spiritual fix
for them. I keep telling them that true experiences will follow them
as they serve God in a Biblical manner. They have no interest in that
since they aren't Biblically grounded.
However, I don't doubt their love for God or their salvation. They
know their Bible enough to know that they are saved. I also don't
believe that the Bible teaches that Satan can co-exist within the
believer alongside the Holy Spirit. In my opinion, people like the
above are just plain "fleshing out."
|
| 35.72 | | DECXPS::HENDERSON | Give the world a smile each day | Fri May 23 1997 16:49 | 11 |
|
I highly recommend the book "Counterfeit Revival", by Hank Hannegraaf. I've
found though that mentioning his name amongst some who support this movement
invites some pretty nasty sneers and comments.
I was on an AOL Christian chat room a couple nights ago and couldn't believe
what I was hearing/reading from some of the supporters of the movement.
Jim
|
| 35.73 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Fri May 23 1997 17:16 | 1 |
| I get to meet him this weekend ;-)
|
| 35.74 | ;-) | DECXPS::HENDERSON | Give the world a smile each day | Fri May 23 1997 17:26 | 3 |
|
Well la-ah dee dah!
|
| 35.75 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Fri May 23 1997 17:57 | 2 |
| btw Jim - they were pretty upset when Hank published "Christianity in
Crisis" too. Many of them are the same people.
|
| 35.76 | | HPCGRP::DIEWALD | | Fri May 23 1997 17:57 | 3 |
| re .73
Who? Joel? :-)
|
| 35.77 | | DECXPS::HENDERSON | Give the world a smile each day | Fri May 23 1997 18:13 | 6 |
|
> btw Jim - they were pretty upset when Hank published "Christianity in
> Crisis" too. Many of them are the same people.
No kidding!
|
| 35.78 | Two Armies? | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun May 25 1997 15:58 | 18 |
| Just a thought on Joel's army. Could there possibly be two
armies mentioned in Joel?
I mean, you've got the army of locusts, but don't you also
have a church from which fire proceeds from its midst? Aren't
they described as walking in unison? Thus you have this description
of much order/unison as well as power. Calling them an army
doesn't seem inaccurate to me.
And this doesn't have to be taken to insist agreement with Toronto/
Pensacola.
I just believe that some day God's people will so reflect Christ's
character that there will be much spiritual harmony and they
will be, in character, like a fire in the midst of the world as
they (by the grace of God) march right into the heavenly Canaan.
Tony
|
| 35.79 | | PHXS01::HEISER | Maranatha! | Tue May 27 1997 14:32 | 1 |
| I think the church is in the New Testament.
|
| 35.80 | Only One Term Possible? | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Sun Jun 01 1997 13:03 | 12 |
| Hi Mike,
Yabbut are you implying that the Bible never uses more than one
term to describe God's people? Because God's people are termed
"the church" in the NT, does this mean we are not Abraham's seed,
or His sheep, or the wheat, or, or...???
Should the Bible use more than one term to describe God's people,
I don't see it as not possible that army just might be one of
those terms.
Tony
|
| 35.81 | Trusting and Testing | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Mon Jun 02 1997 14:35 | 162 |
| Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:04:37 -0700
From: "The Thompson's" <NoahsArk@mscomm.com>
Perhaps some thoughts shared by some one who has actually come away
from the "Toronto" movement after being "lock, stock & barrel" into it
would help others who are saying to themselves- "These people who are so
negative about this have not experienced it first hand." We live in
Southern California and were part of the mainstream Vineyard church here-
and also a smaller vineyard church closer to us.
My husband and I were desperate for God and at the end of everything
in our lives when we came to the local Vineyard. We soon heard about
renewal meetings in Anahiem and began attending twice a week. My first
impression was that these folks were a bit bizzare- but being as I said
quite desparate for God to intervene in our lives we "stuck around." We
were at the "Let the Fire Fall" conference in 1994 when John Wimber had
John Arnot come and preached at the conference. I witnessed and was part
of all the manifestations that have been described. I must say that it
had been so long since I had "felt" anything - emotional or otherwise
toward the Lord that even though the outward looked so wierd- my hunger
kept me returning.
The vineyard was holding renewal meetings twice a week led by one of
their pastors who had been to Toronto personally. We had to drive an
hour each way to attend but did so usually for both meetings. The pastor
would teach for a short period and we would move the chairs away for
ministry time. After attending renewal meetings for a couple of months,
I began to notice some things that the pastor was saying did not make
sense to me. He began to tell us that he did not want to "encourage"
outward manifestations, the jerking- roaring- etc. Yet when ministry
time came the he would call forward the people who were "manifesting"
the strongest, the ones that could hardly walk they were shaking so hard.
Those were the ones who were called to the front and ministered to in
front of us all. This happened while I was there several times.
Well I can tell you first hand what this did to my family- and people
that I knew. People began to seek the manifestations-. At first I was
one of the ones that would usually fall and just weep- unstopable tears.
I believe the Lord did give me repentance as my life had been so
miserable. The tears came and cleansing did happen. But as the pastor
kept calling those forward who were jerking and shaking- and wanting
"more" I began to seek- unwittingly what I now believe were "other gods".
The gods of experience for example.
Not that God can't give experiences that are wonderful but each has to
be examined by His Word. There was very little of this at the renewal
meetings. I will tell you I personally had people lay hands and pray for
me from the large ministry team of Anahiem- I was "open" to all of it.
In the end my simple joy of feeling His cleansing preasence became a
hunger for the next big wow- I was shaken- baked- drunk- laughed till I
could not move - roared- swooned...labored as in childbirth- etc.
For me, until the end (which I'll explain later) these experiences were
wonderful- I felt new- alive- but I was not being honest with myself at
how these things were taking the place of my relationship with God.
People were getting saved although not the throngs I kept hearing about
in other places- there were healings. I must say at this point that
during all the time I attended renewal meetings regularly for over a year-
not once did a person challange any manifestation or spirit according to
the scripture. I personally received training to be on the large ministry
team at our local vineyard (which used the teaching materials from the
Anahiem Vineyard.) I was never advised to "test the spirits" according
to scripture.
Lets be honest here- when someone is frozen to the ground- the only breath
coming is between loud crys - roars- whatever- that seems like it would
be a good time to challenge the spirit of this... I never saw it done-
or even heard of it done even as I began to minister to others as part
of the team. To us, some manifestations were obviously demonic and we
used "descernment" to dectect, then pray for deliverance- these
manifestations being nausea- vomiting- obvious torment etc. When I was
roaring- laughing- shaking or crying- no one ever challenged any of it.
I was not in any kind of torment while experiencing these manifestations-
it was great- I never saw anyone else appear to experience torment while
experiencing these things. So I blunderd on ignoring scripture.
Then I attended a prophetic conference at Mott Auditorium, the Vineyard
of Pasadena- I did notice that things were "cranked up" a bit more than
usual but you have to remember I was used to all this and it was normal
to me. During the ministry time one of the speakers (from Kansas City)
began to "shoot arrows in the spirit" at us. He made the sound of an
arrow shooting- whoosh- as he told us to receive what God's angels had
for us. He said "it's ok to paint a target for where you want the arrow
to hit you." Having suffered from serious childhood hurts, I placed my
hand on my heart and cried out to God. Suddenly I could hardly stand
but, this was not the drunk kind of swoon I had experienced before- this
was painful- I ached all over as if I was coming apart inside.
I wanted to sit down and catch my breath but at that very moment the
speaker called out "Take it" so I forced myself to stand upright. A
feeling of anguish came over me that was awful and indescribable. After
the prayer time was over I felt as if I could move and walk about but the
thought came to me to go over in between the chairs and just lay down for
a while. I questioned my own motives for this- as the conference was over
and my family was waiting for me to go home. I went in between the chairs
and layed down face down on the cold floor there. Soon I was frozen to
the floor- I could not have gotten up if I had wanted to. I could not
speak.
As I had been accustomed to this, outwardly, it just seemed like just
another person "slain in the spirit" but inwardly I felt different- there
was a great element of fear involved this time- I began to really want to
get up but could not. After some time I was able to move and get up to go
home. The next 10 days were so incredibly bizzare I have difficulty
discribing what happened. I will say that there were some very bizzare
"impulses" being hurled at my spirit, the likes of which I had never
experienced. I began to wonder if someone had put speed into my drinking
water during the conference as I could not sleep. These were not the
night watches of the Lord during the sleeplessness - they were fearful
and oppressive.
Part of the reason I had embraced this movement was the seeming knowledge
of the prophetic- now my gifting seemed to turn on me as I experienced
terrifying feelings and apparitions. During this time the Lord brought a
leader to us who was not into the Toronto movement but was a very
prophetic person. I was desparate as even the leaders we had been involved
with abandoned us- the Vineyard pastor from the renewal meetings was
just 'too busy' and our local Vineyard pastor was upset at us for spending
too much time in Anaheim and so basically had no time for us either.
My husband was begging for help- I was flipping out, running all over the
desert- and they had no time? God was faithful- the servant he sent us
was a true shepherd. He told me I had a run in with Kundalini spiritism-
THIS MAN HAD NOT EVEN HEARD OF THE TORONTO MOVEMENT. Yes, that is true.
There are people that God is using who do not even know about TORONTO.
He told me, "some one has opened up a "third eye" in you for sight into
the demonic spirit realm." This servant of God prayed the blood of Jesus
over me and had some serious prayer and warfare in my behalf. I was
delivered from those tormenting spirits by the blood of the Lord Jesus
but my healing and restoration has been a matter of walking with Him.
I was so trapped in the instant fix mode from the renewal that I could
never has seen the value in the daily walk with the Lord. What frightens
me about the Toronto movement is that people such as I was are sincerely
deceived- the spiritual realm- is the realm of warfare. How can we
approach this with out the covering of His word- His battle plan. How
can we ingore what He has told us in spripture and glorify experience or
ANYTHING above His name and what He has given us in Him?
Now folks be honest- continualy bringing people on stage or onto the
alter - wildly manifesting- does distract from thinking about the Lord
Jesus- it's wow look at that- and wow feel this....feel, feel, feel. I
must testify to His protection in spite of being involved in this as
there were several situations during those l0 days I could have easily
died. (Doing over 90 mph on the freeways, weaving in and out of traffic)
is just one example. I also testify to the protection of much more than
my body. He has redeemed my spirit from what was a plot to kill it also.
I believe God did see our hearts and that we were sincere in our search
for Him but we definately fell into the wrong place. If anyone is
reading this who is part of a church that is embracing the Toronto
movement- I beg of you to go to the word- and do not ignore what He is
saying to you through His word. IJohn says test the spirits to see
if they are of God- you are not insulting God to do this. He says to do
it.
It was a breath of fresh air for me to hear there were prophetic people
who were not swallowing everything in the Toronto river- I am glad myself
and my family were plucked out before drowning there- Trusting and
Testing,
L. Thompson
|
| 35.82 | | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Tue Jun 03 1997 15:01 | 40 |
| From: Marcie Dillard <mdillard@Televar.com
Subject: Re: Experiences of 'Toronto'...
Sister Thompson,
I was blessed by your article, I believe the enemy has used our weakness
to entrap the church in this move. This generation for the most part has
never seen revival and so we have accepted these things out of ignorance.
The Toronto blessing was brought to our small town two years ago. I was
new at our church, so I accepted the manifestations without a whole lot of
questions. I have to report that even though I have seen a lot of things
going wrong, God used this time to change my husband's and my life
dramatically. I hesitated reading all the anti-Toronto information for
this reason.
The question that haunts me is if this is not God why did he use it to
change me. And why have I changed and yet so many have not. There were
so many that were excited about what was happening but what I am seeing
is that it has generated more income for the big churches that have the
"big name" pastors come and put on seminars. Higher book and tape sales
and a church that is "bless me" happy! The God that changed me is not the
same God that they serve. Our small town church now has flags and banners
and better music, but there is nobody home.
During this time the Lord called me to the prophetic ministry. Needless
to say I am not too popular at church. I had to break away from the main
stream because the grief was to much. I have lost everything, friends,
church, my ministry on the worship team, all that I valued, but I have
found the truth.
In the desert Israel cried out for meat, today in the church we cry out
for an experience and God has given us a leanness of soul. The brothers
word that said the fat get fatter and the lean get leaner is true. I can
testify that it is true. Their knowledge far exceeds mine and yet there
is nothing they have that is worth having.
Jesus is the only answer today, that will never change.
Marcie Dillard
|
| 35.83 | A 14 Yr Old's View on Spiritual Warfare | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Tue Jun 03 1997 15:03 | 93 |
| My son who is 14 wrote a simple report on Spiritual warfare for his
Bible final at school. I thought this note was most appropriate for it
without starting a new one.
Matthew Morales Proverbs 30:5 5/22/97 Bible Final
Protection for Spiritual Warfare
Many Christians don't really think about spiritual warfare. And if they
dont think about it, they probably arent prepared for it. I believe
this is why many Christians end up not going to church, stop reading
their Bible, and oftentimes resenting God for their problems.
Christians have protection with the Bible and dont even use it. Psalms
19:11 says, "Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin
against Thee." This verse simply means the Bible will protect us from
sin if we memorize it. The verse, Psalms 19:105, "Thy word is a lamp
unto my feet, and a light unto my path," also shows that the Bible can
guide you through life. The Bible is an offensive weapon against
spiritual battle. If more Christians used the Bible in this way, they
probably wouldnt go down the wrong path in life.
Prayer is an important aspect of spiritual battle. In James 4:2, the
Bible says, "Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and
cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
This verse talks about many consequences to Christians who do not pray.
But I believe the war spoken of here could be a spiritual war. And if
we want protection from Satans demons, then we must ask for it. God
promises if we ask in His name, we will receive it.
James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord
shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be
forgiven him. While not all those who are ill, are sick due to
Spiritual warfare, I am reminded of Job who was made ill by Satan. It
was Jobs prayer of faith which healed his body and restored him to
health. Prayer is a powerful tool to use when in battle against Satan
and even your human adversaries.
In Ephesians 6:10-13, tells us that we are to put on the whole armor of
God in our battle against the wiles of Satan. It says our struggle is
against principalities and powers which are the evil forces of the
fallen angels headed by Satan. Satan is described in I Peter 5:8 as
"roaring lion seeking whom he may devour." To withstand his attacks we
must depend on Gods strength and use every piece of his armor.
The whole body needs to be armed as you battle against the rulers of
the darkness of this world. In Ephesians 6:14-20 Paul the Apostle
tells us what makes up the armor of God. Ephesians 6:14a, tell us to
have our loins girt about with truth. Satan fights with lies and
sometimes his lies sounds like truth, but only believers have Gods
truth which can defeat Satans lies.
Ephesians 6:14b, "and having on the breastplate of righteousness," we
protect hearts. Our heart is the seat of our emotions and trust. God
protects our hearts because he loves us and proves that only he is
trustworthy.
Satan wants us to think that telling others the Gospel is too big a
task and the negative responses are too much to handle. In Ephesians
6:15, God says we are to put on our feet the shoes of the preparation
of the gospel of peace. I believe the shoes are the motivation to
continue to carry the true peace which is only in the gospel story of
Jesus.
Satan often fires flaming arrows in the form of temptation,
persecution, trials and lies. Faith is our strongest weapon against
these attacks and by using our faith we know that victory is always
ours. In Ephesians 6:16, God says we must take with us into battle the
"Shield of Faith", to be able to "quench all the fiery darts of the
wicked."
In Ephesians 6:17a, God tells us to put on the helmet of salvation for
our protection against Satans attack on our minds. Satan want us to
doubt God and doubt our salvation because this weakness renders the
Christian useless in battle.
Finally Paul tells us in Ephesians 6:17b to take the "Sword of the
Spirit", which is the "word of God." The sword is the only weapon
which can wound the one with whom you battle. There are times when we
need to take our arms and fight for righteousness. By using the Bible
as our weapon of offense we are assured that our battle bears fruit.
For God says in Isaiah 55:11, "So shall my word be that goeth forth out
of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish
that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent
it."
|
| 35.84 | | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Tue Jun 03 1997 15:33 | 94 |
| From: newhopeforwm@juno.com (Karen L Merchant)
Greetings Andrew Strom:
How wonderful to know that you are out there, that there are others like
you are out there. I thought that I was the only one that was certain that
the Toronto Blessing was instead a curse. I have spoken openly about it
to many people, as I have had the opportunity to speak to many gatherings.
In fact, because of my stand on Rodney Howard-Brown, I was invited, in
front of the Sunday evening congregation, to leave a church where I was
teaching Spiritual Warfare and Intercession.
The Lord warned us in the end times that many false Christ's would appear
and if they said Jesus was here and to go out to see Him, or there- He
said not to go. Everyone was going to see this "Jesus" and, if it was the
Holy Spirit, wouldn't the Holy Spirit have come to us? I have been in
meetings where people have been having this spirit manifest, and I have
asked the Lord, as I was the speaker, not to have these manifestations
appear while I was there, and when I was finished speaking about suffering
and the fires of testing and trials to come, the pastor got up and assured
everyone that though they had not had the manifestations of the spirit in
the morning service, to come back in that evening for their usual time of
spiritual drunkenness. (I am a recovering alcoholic, 15 years sober, and I
don't appreciate being drunk in any spirit, and I don't believe the Lord
would use such terminology for all those of us who He has so graciously
healed of life-long addictions.) They say that they are the five-fold
ministry, but they have also said that they do not want "teachers" as
they have been taught enough!
I have served as our Lord's missionary for 10 years in the field. Almost
three years in Cyprus where the Lord cut my teeth on spiritual awareness
and warfare. Then the Lord prepared me for Turkey. I spent the next
three years in Turkey, living in an eastern city, just myself an another
women from England. We were given a territory by the Lord with the
instruction that we were to pray and intercede in every city and town and
to travel all the roads, passing through as many villages as we could.
Interceding for the terrible bloodshed of the Christian Armenians and
missionaries there in the early 1900's.
In eastern Turkey, in the city of Van, is where, I believe, the devil has
his headquarters on earth (and possibly the very place in the Garden of
Eden that he tempted Eve.) There is located the most ancient worship site
still standing, about 6,000 yrs old. The demonic activity is staggering.
On our many travels we suffered much for the Lord, and these people that
we had been sent to pray for, but He saw us safely through, and delivered
us from actual demonic attacks.
I came back to America in 1992, and in April of 1993 the Lord sent me
and a South African woman into Turkey again, to Nimrut Dug, a mountain
of worship built by Antiochus Ephiphanes in 167 B.C. There on this
mountain are giant thrones; one for Apollyon, mentioned in Rev 9:11.
We believed that we were to go at this time to intercede and bind this
spirit of Apollyon from coming to America FOR A TIME, so the church could
prepare itself.
On the way home the Lord spoke and said that there were four things
that needed preparation: (1) Worship (2) Intercession (3) Committed
Relationships and (4) Suffering. Of these four, the first three have
been completed. Since that time seminars, teaching, books, etc, have
come forth on these exact subjects. All except suffering and I believe
that this is the most precious gift given of the Lord, that He has given
to us here in America.
Suffering is His gift which will have to be opened, whether we want it or
not so that we may come into His presence. I understand there are some
who have been sent to the USA to pray for the suffering of the church
in America.
My South African friend had an interesting observation about the
roaring-howling-barking-laughter. Rodney Howard-Brown is out of South
Africa, and in SA when there is a kill, in the animal kingdom, the first
to the kill are the hyenas. In Africa, this animal is associated with
the demonic. And they "laugh". I am sure that you have heard of the
laughing hyenas. Next are the lions which roar. Last to come to the kill
are the wild dogs which bark! I think it is no coincidence that these are
the sounds of the beasts of prey. The devil has sent a powerful delusion
to mimmic the beasts of prey. The devil has sent a powerful delusion
counterfeit "revival" before the great coming of our Lord and Savior.
Thank you for being there for me. It is like having been in the
desert and suddenly come upon an oasis, where you can come in and sup
and eat and drink of the refreshing waters. I was deeply touched
regarding your paper on Gideon's Army. From the very beginning of my
walk with the Lord, He always used me in prophetic ways, but since 1993
He has put me in prison, literally in a prison ministry to women in a
local county jail. Part of it I believe is to protect me (because of
the nature of the prayer journeys done in Turkey), and partly to keep us
under wraps until His time of releasing. Which we are still waiting
for. So that is why that paper was so encouraging to me. I will keep
watchfully, listening for the Gideon call.
God bless and keep you
serving our Lord,
Karen Merchant
|
| 35.85 | Great Faith | CSC32::L_DEGROFF | | Tue Jun 03 1997 16:04 | 5 |
| .83
A young man grounded in the Word. I have known others and the amazing
thing about them is that they accept without question the teachings of
scripture; an acceptance which creates in them "great" faith.
|
| 35.86 | RE: .83 & .85 | PUSH::PARKER | | Tue Jun 03 1997 16:39 | 4 |
| Verily Jesus says to us, "Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of
God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein." (Lu.18:17)
Oh that we would "accept without question the teachings of scripture!"
|
| 35.87 | Real Good | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Jun 03 1997 17:07 | 8 |
| Nance,
That is a very powerful piece your son wrote (Cal, right?
Isn't Matthew the younger boy?)
I hope what he wrote makes you feel really good!
Tony
|
| 35.88 | Oops! | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Jun 03 1997 17:10 | 1 |
| No wait, it was Matthew! He's the older one!
|