Conference yukon::christian

Note 960.9                       The Final Quest                          9 of 9
NETCAD::WIEBE "Garth Wiebe"                          74 lines   2-FEB-1997 22:48
                  -< "foolish virgins": Joyner vs. Scripture >-
    
"The foolish virgins gnashed their teeth in the outer darkness," I
protested. "And that we did. The grief that we experienced when we
understood how we had so wasted our lives was beyond any grief possible
on earth. The darkness of that grief can only be understood by those
who have experienced it. Such darkness is magnified when it is
revealed next to the glory of the One we failed. You are standing now
among the lowest rank in heaven. There is no greater fools than the
ones who know the great salvation of God, but then go on living for
themselves. To come here and learn the reality of that folly is a grief
beyond what an earthly soul can experience. We are those who suffered
this outer darkness because of this greatest of follies."

In contrast, here is what the scripture says:

MT 25:1 "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins 
who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. [2] Five of 
them were foolish and five were wise. [3] The foolish ones took their 
lamps but did not take any oil with them. [4] The wise, however, took 
oil in jars along with their lamps. [5] The bridegroom was a long time 
in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

MT 25:6 "At midnight the cry rang out: `Here's the bridegroom! Come out 
to meet him!'

MT 25:7 "Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. [8] The 
foolish ones said to the wise, `Give us some of your oil; our lamps are 
going out.'

MT 25:9 " `No,' they replied, `there may not be enough for both us and 
you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

MT 25:10 "But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the 
bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to 
the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

MT 25:11 "Later the others also came. `Sir! Sir!' they said. `Open the 
door for us!'

MT 25:12 "But he replied, `I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

So Mr. Joyner places the "foolish virgins" of scripture in the kingdom
of heaven, whereas scripture has them shut out of heaven.

These 17 corrupt lines of text, out of some 2500+ total lines of text, 
gives the vision, at best (if we give him the benefit of the doubt in
all other areas) something like 99.5% accuracy against the already-
revealed word of God in the canon of scripture.  But prophecies and
visions from the Lord are not 99.5% accurate.  They are 100% accurate, 
because God is 100% accurate.

Dear readership, we must always be on our guard, and "test everything"
(1 Thess 5:21).

Even writings as beautiful and profound as what we have beheld here.
    

One thing I know is that God is MORE.

More than I thought, in just about every direction.

God takes sin much more seriously than I ever thought.  He doesn't wink at
the wrong or say "That's OK," in a sense of ever saying that the sin itself
is OK.

God's grace is greater than I ever thought.  Though He takes sin so
seriously, He loves me in spite of it.  No matter how many times I stand him
up, no matter how many times I turn and run, His love, through the blood of
Jesus, covers it ALL.  ALL.  **ALL**.  **A**L**L**.

Paul

re.0

Hi Nancy,

	It seems to me that the truth you are describing is better 
portrayed by the parable of the Tares. That is they (the tares) look like
genuine believers but in fact are false ones.

	I subscribe to the belief that the virgins whether wise or
foolish are nevertheless all genuinely virgins. "Virgins" signify
believers in the aspect of life (2 Cor 11:2). The difference between
a wise virgin and a foolish virgin is the amount of oil. The wise virgins
have oil in their lamps and in their vessels, whereas the foolish virgins
took oil in their lamps but not in their vessels (Matt 25:4). All ten died
physically (v5) and when the Lord returned they trimmed their lamps and went
to meet him. Therefore, the difference is whether they have oil in their 
vessels since they all had oil in their lamps. A Proverb says "the spirit of
man is a lamp unto the Lord" (Proverbs 20:27). The oil is a type of the Spirit
(Romans 8:16).  Therefore, all 10 virgins had received the Spirit of God into
their spirit before they died. That is all ten virgins were regenerated by the
Spirit and born again (Rom 8:9,16). But only 5 had oil in their vessels. Man 
is a vessel made for God (Romans 9:21.23-24) and man's personality is in his
soul, so the "vessels" in Matthew 25:4 signify the soul of the believers. To
have oil in in their vessels signifies that they have the fulness of the Spirit
of God saturating their souls. 

I'll pause before proceeding to make sure I've articulated this much
clearly or to see whether I've totally confused everyone.   8*)

Ace

    Ace,
    
    I can't agree with that anymore.  Looking at the Matthew verse can you
    explain how these virgins were allowed to be with Christ as His bride?
    
    Matthew 25:10  And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and
    they that  were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door
    was shut. 
    
    

    Paul,
    
    I couldn't agree with you more.  However, I have a concern that as
    Christians we often water down our sinfulness with the blood of Christ
    too quickly applied.  
    
    Have you ever sinned and felt the deep grief of God in your heart?

>    Have you ever sinned and felt the deep grief of God in your heart?

He's given me a peek at His grief at my sinfulness a couple of times.  It
isn't pretty.  He made it clear that He didn't want me to dwell on that
grief, that I was to live in His grace and love.  He doesn't want us living
in guilt.  But He also made it clear that I was never to forget or diminish
that grief.

Paul

    Paul how do we not live in guilt but properly grieve over our
    sinfulness in a way to fully repent of our sin?

re.4

Hi Nancy,

>Looking at the Matthew verse can you explain how these virgins were 
>allowed to be with Christ as His bride?
    
>Matthew 25:10  And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and
>they that  were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door
>was shut.

	I have a difficult task I know 8*). 

	To my understanding the marriage here refers to the "marriage
feast". That doesn't answer your question completely but if you will
bear me I will attempt to explain. The Lord judges the believers first
in the air. Then when He comes to earth with His bridal army and destroys
Antichrist He then judges the nations on His throne of glory (Matt 25:31).
The believers and the nations (non-believers) are not judged at the
same time or in the same place. All the virgins went to meet Him
at the midnight cry. This must mean that they went together. Therefore,
they all are either christians or they are Gentiles (nations). The timing
indicates this is the Lord's judgement in the air therefore they are all
christians. 
	I agree that that they miss the marriage feast. No question. 
However, you may be suggesting that the marriage feast and eternal salvation 
are the same thing. I don't think they are but I'll review diligently any
scriptural explanation to the contrary.

Ace

    Ace,
    
    Do you believe that the parable of the virgins represents the rapture?
    
    Nancy

>Do you believe that the parable of the virgins represents the rapture?
	
	Yes, I do Nancy. Of those believers who have already died.

	"Then all those virgins arose" in v7 signifies resurrection from the
dead (1 Thess 4:14). "For is we believe that Jesus died and rose, so also those
who are asleep will God, through Jesus Christ, bring together with Him".

This is the resurrection predicted in 1 Thess 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:52.

Ace

    .10
    
    How can dead asleep believers have lamps with oil in them?  

re.11


Lamps signify our spirit. (Proverbs 20:27)

Oil signifies the Spirit.

The dead believers though dead in body each have a spirit that is indwelt
by the Spirit of God. It can never die though the body die.

If this event does not refer to the rapture of dead believers, what does it
refer to?

Ace

    If oil represents the Spirit, how does one who is dead fill themselves
    with the Spirit?  How can the dead in Christ go to buy oil?  How can
    the dead in Christ be asked to "share" their oil?
    
    Nancy
    

    God is I AM.
    
    He is a Spirit.  He is Light and He is Love.  He is Holy and He is
    Truth.  He is a Consuming Fire.  He is Sovereign, and will not always
    strive with man.
    
    Incarnate He is Jesus Christ, our Saviour and Lord.
    
    His fruit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness,
    faith, meekness, temperance, against which there is no law.
    
    He is Abba.

re.13

>If oil represents the Spirit, how does one who is dead fill themselves
> with the Spirit?  How can the dead in Christ go to buy oil?  

"Those who sell" oil must be the two witnesses during the great
tribulation, the two olive trees and the two sons of oil (Rev 11:3-4
and Zech 4:11-14). Apparently, there is a way.  

>How can the dead in Christ be asked to "share" their oil?

Good question. No one can have the fulness of the Spirit for others. The 
foolish virgins foolishly asked for the impossible. 

If this event does not refer to the rapture of dead believers, what does it
refer to? If the oil does not represent the Spirit, what does it refer to?

Ace
    

    >If this event does not refer to the rapture of dead believers, what
    >does it refer to?
    
    I think it totally correlates to this:
    
    Matt 24:42  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth
    come.  43  But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in
    what watch  the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not
    have suffered his  house to be broken up.  44  Therefore be ye also
    ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son  of man cometh.  45 
    Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler 
    over his household, to give them meat in due season? 
    
    
    
    
    

    If I understand you correctly you believe my Great Great Grandmother
    who was a believer could be raised from the dead during the rapture but
    left here to find oil?  So my grandchildren could now meet their GREAT
    GREAT GREAT grandmother?

    I am convinced that many who call themselves believers i.e., Sunday
    School teachers, pastors, choir leaders, counselors, deacons, etc.,
    will stand before our Lord and have him say "Depart from me I never
    knew you."   While I believe that our faith saves us, I also believe
    that faith without works is dead because as Christ lives in me, that
    regeneration of my soul will not allow me to idly sit by and not plant
    the seeds of faith in others.  
    
    People who believe they are saved and teeter totter in and out of
    churches never establishing strong fellowships and ministries to others
    [regardless of church affiliation], are being deceived by Satan on
    their eternal security.
    
    How convenient to preach once saved always saved and then live like
    Hell.  I'm not referring to our sinful nature being completely
    destroyed, but I do believe that our sinful nature will decrease as
    Christ increases in our lives through Spiritual nurturing.
    
    Will their be moments of sinful depths in our Christian lives? 
    Absolutely, this is why I will not judge others in their walk with
    Christ.  Grace is God's to give, not mine to guage.
    
    I believe that if I had died before several months ago when God
    revealed to my heart, that although I am a believer, I didn't truly
    KNOW Him, I'd have been lost for all eternity.
    
    You know of the abuse I've suffered in my lifetime, Ace.  I had to come
    to the place of forgiving God for the abuse.  I know that sounds
    horrible, but I realized the anger inside of me was actually towards
    Him, not towards those that hurt me, I forgave them, I saw them as weak
    vessels of flesh, no different than me, but God, who was this God that
    hurt me, yet loved me and saved me?
    
    Perhaps you can help me understand what happened in my heart when I
    forgave God or actually when I gave God, His place by recognizing who
    He is and who I am not.
    
    I don't believe until this part of my heart was redeemed, this
    acknowledge of anger/hatred towards a God that allowed such evil in my
    life, that I was fully saved.  
    
    My life changed in 1972 when I accepted Jesus into my heart, evidence
    of His residence was seen by all who knew me.  But along the way, I
    built anger and resentment towards the very being who gave me life.
    
    We cannot hate God and love God, both bitter and sweet cannot come from
    the same vessel.
    
    If we hate our brother then the love of the Father is not in us. 
    Imagine if we hate our Father...
    
    I believe these virgins were believers that never really KNEW God.
    I Cor 15:34.
    
    
    In His love,
    Nancy
    

    Check out this word through an OT prophet:
    
    "For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish
    children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil,
    but to do good they have no knowledge." (Je.4:22, KJV)
    
    SOTTISH - stupid or foolish from or as from too much drinking
    
    Here's another good word I found in the dictionary:
    
    SCIOLISM - superficial knowledge or learning;
               false or pretended knowledge

    I do not usually get involved in these kind of discussions.  However,
    since I am in a way the instigator, I might as well add my
    "interpretation" to this issue of the Virgins and perhaps speak for
    a saint, now departed, who has also spoken on this issue.
    
    All are virgins, exactly the same except in the amount (not type of
    oil) they have.  They sleep (NT terminology for physical death- see
    Paul's letter to the Corinthians) and awake together and await the coming
    of the same bridegroom.  The request made by the foolish to the wise
    to share is as foolish as the response made by the wise to the foolish
    to go and buy oil.  Neither the wise or the foolish are able to
    increase the amount of oil after death.  Neither will there be a
    resurrection of the dead for this purpose.
    
    Wayne, your reference to the book, The Normal Christian Life, by
    Watchman Nee reminded me of his thoughts concerning the rapture and the
    Millennial reign of Christ.  He believes in two raptures, a rapture
    of the Overcomers, those whose lamps and jars are full.  These
    are allowed to reign with Christ during the Millennium while the
    remainder of the saints (the foolish virgins) must wait until this
    period is over.
    
    Jesus's response to the foolish virgins that he does not know them may
    not mean that they are not his, but rather that they are not on the
    list of those allowed to partake of the Marriage Feast (Millennial
    reign) which I would not equate with the Judgment Seat of Christ which
    may not, in fact occur until the end of the Millenium.  Additonally,
    consider the following statements which are similar in nature to the
    Christ's  statement in this passage of "I don't know you," (sorry
    references not available so quoted from memory):
    
    "If a man does not hate his mother, father, sister.. he is not worthy
    to be my disciple."
    
    "Essau he hated, but Jacob he loved."
    
    Obviously, these are examples of strong language which are not to be
    interpreted literally.
    
    Larry                                         

    .19
    
    Funny you should mention this verse, last night's revival message was
    from Jeremiah 3.  In the I Corinthians 15:34 verse, the latter part,
    "And I speak this to your shame", really grabbed at me.  This to me
    means that their are those who do KNOW God that are not allowing their
    work of faith to be performed.  I speak this to your shame... I thought
    of standing before the judgement seat of Christ and hearing those words 
    after hearing the account of my life, "and I speak this to your shame"
    shook me up a bit.  
    
    Another view of this scripture is the Christian who has been a believer
    for 5-10 years that has never studied the Word of God.  Or perhaps like
    me, where prayer becomes too time consuming as my days aren't planned
    accordingly to include prayer first and foremost.
    
    I was convicted, Bro. Wayne... very convicted as I've been pondering
    these verses.
    
    Nancy

re.17 
>I'm still open

I know you are Nancy. If I thought otherwise I would say something ominous
like "I've said all I'm going to say on this matter"  8*)  8*)

re.18

	I'd like to return to the parable of the virgins in a few notes and
discuss something more fundamental which happens to relate more to the topic
of the note as well.

	From what you've opened in this and past versions of this file
I understand the pain of your situation. As a word of encouragement to
you and anyone else I would add that our experiences and situations,
failings and feelings, shortcomings, anger, good or evil works can never 
negate God's righteousness which is the very sure foundation upon which 
our salvation is based. When you believed into the Lord Jesus, you were
transfered out of Adam and into Christ. When God looks at you now He
sees Christ. Not because what you have done, but because of what He has
accomplished in His judicial salvation. That is the divine fact and our 
bitter feelings cannot negate God's fact. Consider this. If you were mad
at God to uttermost, yet you still believed, would God be righteous to
not save you and allow you to perish? God would not be righteous if you
believed and yet He refused to save you because you were mad at Him. He has
based our salvation upon our belief in His accomplished work not on our
feelings. God cannot be unrighteous so regardless whether you are mad at Him,
happy with Him, sad with Him, indifferent towards Him, as long as you
believe, He will save you, even He must save you for He has bound Himself to 
His Word. Consider this example. If Clayton is mad at you is he any less
your child than when he is happy with you? Can you "unborn" Clayton? Even
if you wanted to "send him back" it is impossible to do so. When you
first believed, God Himself came into you and regenerated your spirit. You 
were born again. God does not want to "send us back" nor can He. God knew you 
before the creation yet He chose you anyway. You obtained Clayton sight
unseen. Is he still your child though he be mad at you? Yet God knew you
before He chose you. Tis mercy all! You became a child of God even though
you harboured resentment. Think about it. You cannot harbour resentment
towards someone who you don't believe in. 

>Perhaps you can help me understand what happened in my heart when I
>    forgave God or actually when I gave God, His place by recognizing who
>    He is and who I am not.

From what I tell it is as you said. You gave God His place. You allowed God
a place in you that He previously did not occupy. You added oil in your
vessel. You allowed Christ to make His home in another room in your heart.
You had already received Christ in your spirit but He could not make His
home in all your heart as you had imprisoned and confined Christ to a 
particular place in you that is, your spirit. The experience may have been 
at least as dramatic as your initial salvation experience. He desires to
move into other rooms of our heart but does not force us. Had you not
allowed God His place in that part of your heart you may have been
accounted as a foolish virgin having only received the Lord in 1972
but never allowed Him to make His home in other parts. He will judge
all us virgins in this matter.

We often confuse 1) eternal salvation based on God's righteousness
with 2) our experience of Christ and the reward of the millenial kingdom.

God's complete salvation is based upon His righteousness and through our
faith.

Ace

re.20

I knew if I waited someone would come along and explain better than
I could.  8*)

In general, what Larry said in .20 is pretty close to what I believe as well.

Ace

Parables can be difficult to understand, particularly when examined for meaning
beyond the central truth.  The parable of the ten virgins is an analogy, a
correspondence in some respects between things otherwise dissimilar--"Then shall
the kingdom of heaven be LIKENED unto ten virgins..."  Note that the kingdom is
likened unto TEN virgins, five wise and five foolish, not just five wise
virgins.

First, I submit that the central truth of this parable is preparation and
watchfulness.  Those who go forth to meet Jesus, but without counting the cost
and gathering available provisions, will not see Him when He comes to receive
His bride, let alone be His bride.  That is the explicit teaching.  All else is
implicit.  The conclusion that the five foolish virgins were cast into outer
darkness is implicit at best!  Note that only the "unprofitable servant" in the
subsequent parable of the talents was explicitly cast into outer darkness, and
only the goats on the left were explicitly sent into the everlasting fire
prepared for the devil and his angels.

Second, what seems obvious:

	Bridegroom - Son of man (Jesus Christ)
	Virgins    - undefiled and never married (church)
	Lamps      - devices, equipped with wicks, for providing light
	Oil        - fuel (material burned to produce light)
	Vessels    - containers for storing oil

Note that lamps provide light by burning, not storing, oil, and vessels store,
but are not equipped to burn, oil.  Note, too, that wicks draw oil up to the
flame by capillary action, and can draw oil for burning indefinitely as long as
oil is available.  Without oil, the wick itself is consumed by the flame.

Again, a wick exists primarily for drawing oil to, not being burned by, the
flame!

Consider the following passages:

We are God's building on the foundation of Jesus Christ.  We are to take heed
how we build on that foundation.  "Now if any man build upon this foundation
gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be
made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it is revealed by fire;
and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work
abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's
work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet
so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and the Spirit of God
dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;
for the temple of God is holy, which temple we are. Let no man deceive himself.
If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool,
that he may be wise." (1Co.3:9-18, KJV)

"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness--(or made visible
that which was not seen in order to destroy that which existed, if TonyB will)--
is He who hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the
glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen
vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us."
(2Co.4:6&7)

"His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and
godliness, through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and
virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that
by these we might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the
corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all
diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virture knowledge; And to knowledge
temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to
godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these
things be in you, and abound, they make us neither idle nor unfruitful in the
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind,
and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old
sins. Wherefore the rather, give diligence to make our calling and election
sure: for if we do these things, we shall never fall: For so an entrance shall
be ministered unto us abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and
Saviour Jesus Christ."

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto we do well that take
heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the
day star arise in our hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the
scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not at any
time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake moved by the Holy Ghost."
(2Pe.1:3-11,19-21)

An angel said to the Apostle John, "Come hither, I will shew thee the bride,
the Lamb's wife."  The angel showed John "the holy Jerusalem, descending out of
heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone
most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal...And the building of
the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear
glass. And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all
manner of precious stones...And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God
Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the
sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it,
and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved
shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory
and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for
there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the
nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that
defileth, neither worketh abomination, or a lie: but they which are written in
the Lamb's book of life."

And the angel showed John "a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal,
proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street
of it, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bare
twelve fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree
were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the
throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and His servants shall serve Him:
And they shall see His face; and His name shall be in their foreheads. And
there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the
sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and
ever."  And the angel said, "These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord
God of the holy prophets sent His angel to shew unto His servants the things
which must shortly be done...Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book:
for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he
which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be
righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I
come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work
shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the
last. Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to
the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without
are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and
whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto 
you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and
the bright and morning star.

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come.
And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of
life freely...He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly.
Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." (Re.21:9-22:20)

I believe we are tripartite beings, comprising body, soul and spirit.  I see
the virgins' bodies as vessels, their souls as lamps equipped to provide light,
and their spirits as wicks to draw oil to the flame.  I see the flame as the
Holy Spirit, more precisely, the fruit of the Spirit.  I see the oil, not as
the Spirit per se, but rather as "all things that the Father hath," the things
that the Spirit takes of Jesus and shows us, perhaps the wedding garment (see
Mt.22:2-14 and Re.16:15).  The oil cannot be the Spirit Himself because He
cannot be bought and sold.  Note that the virgins went to buy from those who
sold.  However, God's grace comes through various means, or oil is poured from
various vessels, if you will.  The wise virgins could not give grace given them
"according to their several ability" to the foolish virgins, just as we cannot
be responsible for others' appropriation of God's grace.  In other words, grace
can be rejected, but not given away, and grace offered to me cannot be received
by someone else on my behalf.  Grace is entirely God's to give!

All ten virgins had lamps that were lit--all their lamps had been kindled to
flame.  Whereas all the virgins arose, and "trimmed their lamps," the five
foolish virgins saw that their lamps were going out.  The five wise virgins
were unable to give their oil lest none of the virgins would be prepared to
meet the Bridegroom.  All the virgins, wise and foolish alike, had been
sleeping and were awakened in darkness.  Oil remained available because the
foolish virgins went to buy oil from those who sold, but returned too late for
the marriage.

Of particular interest to me is the relationship of wick, oil and flame.  I see
the intended operation of the wick as regeneration of our spirit by the Holy
Spirit, the capillary action, if you will, that draws oil through the wick to
the flame.  The wick saturated with oil will not be consumed!

According to Re.22:17, "the Spirit and the bride" will invite into the holy
city those who are undefiled, who neither work abomination nor lie.  Virgins
with a new supply of oil might be so described.  I believe there is room for
differing interpretations of the parable of the ten virgins, given that two
other parables appear in context to more fully describe the kingdom of heaven.
A close correlation in the precedent context is found with the two in the field
and two grinding at the mill, each wherein one is taken and the other left.  We
can only infer that the one left is cast into outer darkness or everlasting
punishment.  The explicit teaching is that whereas one is taken immediately,
the other is left behind.

    Ace, 
    
    I just read over your note to me once again.  I must say you do provide
    a very sound representation of what is happening with me.  I have a
    hard time accepting that a righteous judge would somehow love me so
    much as to cover all of my sins.  I think I deserve punishment.   No, I
    *know* I deserve punishment.  But our God is so merciful that he
    reaches down to even me.
    
    In all of my sorrow, troubles and strife
    Jesus I come, Jesus I come to Thee.
    

    re: .6,.7
    
    I think the following verse is relevent...
    
    Ecclesiastes 8:11
    Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily,
    therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do
    evil.
    
    I think the sentence (pain) against an evil work (sin) is the guilt
    that is inherent to sin.  We're not saved by guilt, but it may have
    a role in inducing us to flee to the arms of Christ wherein we may
    obtain mercy and grace to help in time of need.
    
    						Tony

      Hi,
    
        Just a couple thoughts...
    
        First, I think the differing interpretations of the parable of 
        the virgins is largely due to our own 'building' of what the
        plan of redemption is all about.  An example is the belief in
        a rapture and how this adds to the parable.  Some, like myself,
        don't even believe in a rapture.
    
        Second, Nance, I see the faith/works thing differently.  If I
        understood you correctly, you stated that one can have faith,
        but be without works and thus be lost.  I think what James and
        others are really saying is that if one has true faith, one
        WILL work.  Faith allows the Word into the heart and the Word
        can do no other, but work.  The devils believe and tremble, but
        its not true faith; not the one that is a response to (works
        by) agape (Gal. 5:5,6).
    
        Three, Wayne, the scriptural use of buying and selling does refer
        to things we really can't buy.  Rev 3:18 includes a counsel from
        Jesus Christ to BUY from Him gold refined in the fire as well as
        white garments.  We can't really buy them either (they are gifts).  
        Thus I wouldn't insist the oil in the parable is not the Holy Spirit 
        on that basis.  The white garment is the robe of Christ's righteousess
        and there is no way I can purchase that.
    
        Four, Wayne, it is the one's taken who are lost according to
        scripture.   In the flood account, those who remained were left
        alive and those who died were taken (Genesis 7:23/Matt 24:39).  
        In Eccl. 7:26, it is those who are taken that are lost.  Same 
        with Rev 19:20 (KJV).  Its a pretty consistent theme.
    
    						Tony
    

    fifth, Tony, we don't disagree on faith/works. :-)

|       Three, Wayne, the scriptural use of buying and selling does refer
|       to things we really can't buy.  Rev 3:18 includes a counsel from
|       Jesus Christ to BUY from Him gold refined in the fire as well as
|       white garments.  We can't really buy them either (they are gifts).  
|       Thus I wouldn't insist the oil in the parable is not the Holy Spirit 
|       on that basis.  The white garment is the robe of Christ's righteousess
|       and there is no way I can purchase that.

** Whatever.  So you think the wise virgins sent the foolish virgins back to
   buy oil from the (father of the) bridegroom?
    
|       Four, Wayne, it is the one's taken who are lost according to
|       scripture.   In the flood account, those who remained were left
|       alive and those who died were taken (Genesis 7:23/Matt 24:39).  
|       In Eccl. 7:26, it is those who are taken that are lost.  Same 
|       with Rev 19:20 (KJV).  Its a pretty consistent theme.

** Actually, those left outside the ark after the door was shut were the ones
   who died, while those who were taken into the ark were saved.

   So, are you saying the wise virgins taken into the marriage were lost?

> Rev 3:18 includes a counsel from
>       Jesus Christ to BUY from Him gold refined in the fire as well as
>        white garments.  We can't really buy them either (they are gifts)

re.27

Hi Tony,

	"Buying" means to pay a price.

	The Lord's counsel in Rev 3:18 to buy gold, white
garments, and eyesalve matches the need in the previous verse (v17) where
He exposes the church in Laodicea's true condition: wretched,
miserable, poor, blind, and naked. If gold, white garments, and
eyesalve were gifts as you say then the responsibility for Laodicea's
condition would fall on the gift giver, in this case the Lord Jesus.

Rather, the Laodicean's bear the responsibility for their condition and
can buy from Him gold, white garments, and eyesalve to meet their need.

	I beleive the Lord is sincere and genuine and His counsel and
instructions are accurate and true. When He counsels to "buy", then we
may be assured that there is a possibility of "buying". We need to
go before Him and understand what He means regarding buying gold, white
garments, and eyesalve. 

Regards,
Ace

The Lord answered Job, "Doth the eagle mount up at thy command, and make her
nest on high? She dwelleth and abideth on the rock, upon the crag of the rock,
and the strong place. From thence she seeketh the prey, and her eyes behold afar
off. Her young ones also suck up blood: and where the slain are, there is she."
(Job39:27-30, KJV)

Jesus said, "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered
together." (Mt.24:28, KJV)

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that
day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For
as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marry-
ing and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark. And
knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming
of the Son of man be.

"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two
women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." (Mt.24:35-42,
KJV)

According to Luke's parallel account, Jesus said, "And as it was in the days of
Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they
drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah
entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also
as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold,
they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it
rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall
it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

"In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house,
let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him
likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his
life shall lost it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

"I tell you, in that night there shall be two in one bed; the one shall be
taken, and the other shall be left. Two shall be grinding together; the one
shall be taken, and the other left. Two shall be in the field; the one shall be
taken, and the other left.

"And <the disciples> answered and said unto Him, Where, Lord? And He said unto
them, 'Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.'"
(Lu.17:26-37, KJV)

Taken together, Matthew's and Luke's accounts to me clearly indicate that those
left are destroyed.  The day Noah entered the ark, the flood came, and destroyed
them all (who were outside the ark).  The day Lot went out of Sodom, fire and
brimstone rained from heaven and destroyed them all (who remained in Sodom).
Where the body is, or slain are, there also the eagle seeking her prey.

      Hi Nance,
    
        Oh, OK.  Just wanted to be sure!   ;-)
    
      Hi Wayne,
    
        I'm just saying that I don't see it as defense of the idea that
        the oil is not the Holy Spirit on the basis that the oil is
        bought.  The support for this idea being that the Bible refers
        to other things in the Bible with the same language.  I think
        L_Degroff (sorry, don't know your first name) brought up a similar
        point when he referred to the scripture that spoke of God hating
        Esau.
    
        But, thats my only point Wayne.  Not to insist that the oil is
        not the Holy Spirit, but just to suggest that to insist it is not
        on the basis of the oil being *bought* is incorrect.
    
        As for "left and taken", sure I can see that we can use the same
        terms in such a way as to have taken apply to the saved and left
        apply to the lost.  My only point was how SCRIPTURE seems to 
        generally use the terms.  I did supply some examples.
    
      Hi Ace,
    
        I believe the Bible is often metaphorical.  I believe all things
        spiritual come from God.  Discernment is a gift.  So is the robe
        of Christ's righteousness.  I can't "buy" that in the sense that
        we typically mean "buying."
    
        And this doesn't negate the truth that we are responsible.  To
        state that we are responsible and THUS we can buy is pure folly.
        Anyone who is lost is responsible for Christ provided them a way
        to be saved.  That 'way' includes the gift of Christ Himself.
        Your reasoning applied to this example is tatamount to requiring
        that we are our own saviors.
    
        Responsibility need not (and often does not) imply the ability
        to purchase.
    
        Salvation itself is a gift though I am responsible for its
        reception.
                                              
    						Tony

Hi, Tony.
    
|       I'm just saying that I don't see it as defense of the idea that
|       the oil is not the Holy Spirit on the basis that the oil is
|       bought.  The support for this idea being that the Bible refers
|       to other things in the Bible with the same language.  I think
|       L_Degroff (sorry, don't know your first name) brought up a similar
|       point when he referred to the scripture that spoke of God hating
|       Esau.

** Okay, then, can you cite specific examples where the Holy Spirit was
   obtained through means other than being directly sent/given by the Father?
    
|       But, thats my only point Wayne.  Not to insist that the oil is
|       not the Holy Spirit, but just to suggest that to insist it is not
|       on the basis of the oil being *bought* is incorrect.

** I disagree, of course, but feel free to point out my error regarding not
   "other things," but the Holy Spirit in particular with Scripture.
    
|       As for "left and taken", sure I can see that we can use the same
|       terms in such a way as to have taken apply to the saved and left
|       apply to the lost.  My only point was how SCRIPTURE seems to 
|       generally use the terms.  I did supply some examples.

** Yes, you supplied some examples.  However, I thought we were concerned with
   what the terms meant in the context of the parables under discussion.
   I was surprised to see you shout SCRIPTURE at me, given my attempt in note
   22.31 to carefully handle Scripture.

   I'm open to your reproof.

/Wayne

  Hi Wayne,

    I'm sorry for my last reply.  I feel ornery today (a little fluish)
    and I suppose that was enough temptation for me to be inappropriate.
    I'm sorry Wayne.

    As per left and taken...

    When I capitalized the word _scripture_, I did not mean it in any
    way to suggest you are not a diligent studier of the word, I only
    meant to emphasize the thought (I had) that scripture seems to use
    these terms a certain way.  I refer to the term taken/took and perhaps
    left/remained.

    Also, I don't like the idea of 'reproofing' you!

    Anyway, Wayne, I looked back at the texts you provided and it no doubt
    is true that those that were left in Sodom perished while those that
    left (were taken out of) Sodom were delivered.  No doubt the terms 
    left and taken, as qualifiers, seem to support what you are saying.

    But, I also looked closely for scripture's actual use of the words and
    to be fair, I didn't find a whole lot with left/remained save Genesis
    7:23 "only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive."
    Alive is italicized and remained seems to me to be a lot like "were 
    left."

    You quoted Matthew 24:39 which says, "and did not know until the flood
    came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man
    be."

    This seems to be paralleled with the Luke acct.
    
    "and destroyed them all."

    i.e. taken paralleled with destroyed (lost).

    Lot seems to me to offer some support for your view, but I looked closely
    to see the words left and/or taken and didn't see them.  So I don't see
    the support to be real strong.  That is, in terms of what is physically
    happening - the residents of Sodom were left and Lot was taken - I 
    agree.  However, in terms of scriptural word usage, I fail to see the
    Word explicitly use the words left and/or taken in this vein.

    Luke 17:37, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered
    together" again connotates the idea that those LEFT are the ones who
    are lost.  I agree!  However, again it seems to me that scripture uses
    the actual words differently.

    Revelation 19 depicts the same scene.  It is the highly unique imagery
    of birds feasting on dead carcasses.  However, if you look closely at
    Revelation for its use of words such as left and/or taken, you find...

    Revelation 19:20 (KJV)
    and the beast was _taken_, and with him the false prophet that wrought
    miracles before him.

    After my feeling ornery and feeling lousy about that, I'd prefer you to
    be right Wayne!

    But, lunkhead though I might be, in terms of imagery it seems the lost
    are the ones that are left and the saved are the ones that are taken.
    In terms of scriptural word usage, it seems the other way around.

    **********************************************************************

    With the oil...

    Matthew 25:9
    go to those who sell and _buy_ for yourselves.

    Yes, I can see that if we insist on Webster's definition for "buy" we
    must conclude that the oil cannot be the Holy Spirit.

    Rev 3:18
    Buy from Me gold refined in the fire,...,and white garments.

    I believe anything from God is a gift/must be a gift.  We can't buy 
    anything from God.

    Thus, I believe the word buy is also a word scripture packs with a
    different meaning than Webster's.

    I can't buy white garments from the Lord.

    Conclusion: the word buy has to have a scripturally intended flexibility
    of meaning that can be inclusive of receiving gifts.  (Perhaps 'giving'
    God our faith and thus receiving His righteousness?)

    Thus, I cannot necessitate the oil cannot be the Holy Spirit on the 
    basis that the oil is 'bought.'

						Tony

    Fair enough, Tony.
    
    You've considered my words carefully, and I would ask no more from you.
    
    I must say, though, that I'm VERY glad you decided to NOT "leave this
    place!" :-)
    
    May we together grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and
    Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
    
    /Wayne

    P.S.  By the way, just so you know I considered your words, too...
    when the Lord saw the blood, He passed over, but smote all the firstborn
    of Egypt not covered.  In other words, He took those outside and left
    those inside.  Interestingly enough, there "was a great cry in Egypt; for
    there was not a house where there was not one dead." (Ex.12:30b)  Kinda
    sounds like "weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth," no? :-)

    It is important to note that when the Lord, God of Creation, reveals
    himself to us that there are some physical reactions manifested.  It is
    also important to note that when the Lord, God of Creation, enters into
    the spiritual heart of man, there are some spiritual reactions
    manifested.  
    
    As we look at the character of God and who He is, our tendency is to
    refer to him in human terminology and experience.  This is why we see
    through a glass but darkly.  
    
    Have you ever meditated on the Lord and asked Him to reveal to you
    something new about Him?  Have you ever admitted that your knowledge of
    God doesn't come through Bible memorization, but through a spiritual
    revelation which cannot be measured or judged in human metrics?
    
    What a beautiful truth to know that my understanding of God is never
    complete nor is it ever perfect.  Because it is through this
    recognition that God still can teach us.
    
    Lord, please continue to keep me teachable.
    
    

re.36

Well said Nancy.

Ace