| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
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| 17.1 | "Being Fully Convinced" (THEREFORE) | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:36 | 42 |
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Note 959.1 Romans 4 - Basis 1 of 49
YIELD::BARBIERI 36 lines 20-JAN-1997 16:14
-< "Being Fully Convinced" (THEREFORE) >-
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From reply Note 955.31 (Ace)
>...the reality that we really are not righteous
> right now, but when God perfectly produces the law in us
> (the everlasting covenant), we will be.
* But the reality is that we are righteous. According to Romans 4:5 "But
*to the one who works not, but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his
*faith is reckoned as righteousness". God reckons us as righteous and therefore
*we are. Our righteousness is Christ.
Can you explain how your view squares with Romans 4? Why did you omit the
verse that explains WHY (i.e. on what basis) God accounted Abraham as
righteous when he first had faith? Why did you supply your own answer
instead of God's?
The following is God's explanation (I took the liberty of some description
within the passage - hope thats OK):
Romans 4:20-22
He [Abraham] did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but
was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,
and being fully convinced that what He [God] had promised He was also
able to perform.
And THEREFORE [for this reason] "it [Abraham's faith] was accounted to
him for righteousness."
Question:
Why was Abraham's faith accounted to him for righteousness?
Answer:
Because Abraham became FULLY CONVINCED that what God promised He was
also able to perform.
Question:
Do you agree with this?
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| 17.2 | Two Different Faiths | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:37 | 48 |
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Note 959.2 Romans 4 - Basis 2 of 49
YIELD::BARBIERI 42 lines 20-JAN-1997 16:14
-< Two Different Faiths >-
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Continuing on...
Now, lets go on. The following is extremely important!
Question:
Are the faith described as "it" (verse 22) and the faith described in
verses 20 and 21 IDENTICAL FAITHS?
Recall what the father of the demoniac said to Jesus when Jesus said, "Only
believe and your son shall be healed." He said, "Lord I believe, help thou
mine unbelief!"
Genesis 15:6,8
And he believed in the Lord and He accounted it to him for rightousness.
And he said, "Lord God, how shall I know [i.e. NOT fully convinced/some
unbelief] that I will inherit it?"
Genesis 17:17-18
Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, "Shall
a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah,
who is ninety years old, bear a child?" [more unbelief/more being less
than fully convinced]
And Abraham said to God, "Oh, that Ishmael might live before you!"
There are other examples such as Hagar or Abraham having Sarah not present
herself as his wife.
To repeat the question...
Question:
Are the faith described as "it" (verse 22) and the faith described in
verses 20 and 21 IDENTICAL FAITHS?
Answer:
No.
The faith described as "it" was Abraham's initial faith and the faith
described as "fully convinced" is Abraham's final, perfected faith.
I'll continue...
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| 17.3 | A Perfected Faith: No Resistance to the Word | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:38 | 63 |
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Note 959.3 Romans 4 - Basis 3 of 49
YIELD::BARBIERI 57 lines 20-JAN-1997 16:14
-< A Perfected Faith: No Resistance to the Word >-
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Continuing on...
Question:
What does faith have to do with accounting righteous in the first place?
Answer:
I believe the answer is implicit in the description of Abraham's final
faith. The reason faith is relevent is because a perfected faith does
not suppress the word of God. There is no resistance. The word performs
exactly that which it says.
Genesis 17:1b
I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.
That is the everlasting covenant. To walk before God is to contemplate
the cross and the cross can make perfect.
Thus it is that faith is pertinent because faith allows the word of God
to do that which it says. When one's faith is perfect, the word of God
that says (as it did to the woman caught in adultery), "Sin no more" does
what it says.
God said to Abraham, "Walk before Me and be blameless" and if Abe's faith
is perfected, Abe will be fully as blameless as God calls him to be.
Question:
Then why does God account Abe as righteous because of his initial faith?
Answer:
Because God is implying that He can take our faith from Point A (initial/
imperfect) to Point Z (final/perfect).
Notice how the righteousness God produces in us is fully tied into the
basis given in Romans 4. In fact, if you read the Mount Moriah account
(which is the symbolic three day experience), the basis for the legitemacy
of the gospel itself is what the gospel could produce IN ABRAHAM.
Genesis 22:16a,18
...By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord BECAUSE YOU HAVE DONE THIS THING...
"In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, BECAUSE YOU
HAVE OBEYED MY VOICE."
Question:
What is the blessing?
Answer:
Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations by faith,
preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham saying, "In you all the nations
shall be blessed."
The blessing is the gospel itself. The blessing of the gospel itself is
because Abraham obeyed God's voice, i.e. the Mount Moriah exp.
I hope this point is not missed. This dovetails perfectly with Romans 4.
I'll continue.
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| 17.4 | Then Really Not Righteous (when 1st have faith) | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:38 | 41 |
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Note 959.4 Romans 4 - Basis 4 of 49
YIELD::BARBIERI 35 lines 20-JAN-1997 16:15
-< Then Really Not Righteous (when 1st have faith) >-
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Continuing on...
Question:
There is a wrench. This rarely ever happens with individuals. Most people
don't have their faith perfected. How to explain/reconcile?
Answer:
I believe Abraham as a type is an individual. But, he represents a
CORPORATE MAN. The faithful. God must validate the gospel by producing in
a remnant what He produced in one man (Abraham) as a type. As a corporate
man, this all harmonizes (see Heb. 11:39-40)
Question:
So, in summary, what is going on?
Answer:
God accounts us as righteous when we first have faith because the word
of God (the message of the cross) can make us fully righteous when our
faith is perfected and God is saying He can perfect our faith.
Question:
This would imply that when God calls us righteous when we first have faith,
we really are not righteous.
Answer:
Yes, and this is EXACTLY what Romans 4 says!
Romans 4:17b
God calls things which do not exist ["You are righteous"] as though they
did.
God's accounting Abraham righteous is EXACTLY the context of Romans 4.
(Please ponder this in the light of Romans 4:17.)
I'll continue...
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| 17.5 | God's Earthly Example/Summary | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:39 | 63 |
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Note 959.5 Romans 4 - Basis 5 of 49
YIELD::BARBIERI 57 lines 20-JAN-1997 16:15
-< God's Earthly Example/Summary >-
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Continuing on...
Question:
Well, I'm not sure about that. It cuts against all my preconceptions. Did
God give an example that could assist us?
Answer:
Yes! Right in Romans 4 itself!
Romans 4:17a
(as it is written, "I have made [PAST TENSE] you a father of many nations.")
and then later the word of God says...
Romans 4:18 (middle)
so that he became [FUTURE TENSE] the father of many nations.
Genesis 17:4b
you shall be [FUTURE TENSE] a father of many nations.
Genesis 17:5b
for I have made you [PAST TENSE] a father of many nations.
To repeat:
Romans 4:17b
God calls things which do not exist ["You are righteous"] as though they
did.
Romans 4:17b
God calls things which do not exist ["You are the father of many nations"]
as though they did.
So, according to Romans 4,
1) God calls us righteous when we first have faith because of our perfected
faith which He can produce in us.
2) A perfected faith does not resist the word of God and such a person becomes
fully as righteous as God calls them to be. (The word is the power.)
3) The legitemacy of the gospel itself is on the basis of what God could
produce in Abraham.
4) An earthly example is given in which Abraham is not yet according to what
God called him (father of many nations).
5) God is characterized as calling those things that do not exist as though
they did.
That's enough for now, but let me quickly add that we are to look only to
Christ and the cross is the basis for the blood of the cross is what produces
any righteousness in any of us.
This is all to the glory of the cross.
Tony
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| 17.6 | Out of faith to faith | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:40 | 62 |
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Note 959.6 Romans 4 - Basis 6 of 49
SUBSYS::LOPEZ "He showed me a River!" 56 lines 20-JAN-1997 23:33
-< Out of faith to faith >-
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Tony,
First let me commend you for laying out your understanding in as
coherent a manner as I've ever seen you do. 8*) I understand why you
believe as you do and why you are fully persuaded in your own mind. Also
I've no doubt about the sincerity of your intentions. So be a peace
brother I mean you no harm.
There are a few crucial points in which you and I part in this
study. Firstly, you introduce this concept of initial faith and perfect
faith as if they were two different faiths. The faith which Abraham recieved
when God visited him the first time and the faith he had when God visited
him the last time are the same faith. Abraham's faith increased at each
encounter with the God of glory. Believing God was Abraham's spontaneous
reaction to God's repeated appearing to him (Gen. 12:1-3,7; 13:14-17;
15:1-7; cahp 18; Acts 7:2), each time transfusing something of His glory,
something of Himself, into Abraham. Hence, Abraham's believing was actually
the springing up within him of the very element that God had transfused
into him. God's reaction to Abraham's believing was to justify him, that is,
to account him righteous. Therefore, Abraham's faith was accounted to him
as righteousness and this faith was strenghtened with each appearing of
God. Not two faiths, but one faith intensified through repeated contact.
Secondly, In .3 you asked: "What is the blessing?" and then answered "The
blessing is the gospel itself". You have this reversed. The gospel was "in
you shall the nations be blessed" (Gal 3:8) and the blessing is the Spirit
as in v14 "In order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles
in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through
faith." This the Spirit of Life in Romans 8.
Lastly, you interpreted "the things not being as being" as referring to
Abrahams' faith. The context of Romans 4 shows that the subject of
Abraham's believing was concerning his seed. v18, and therefore v17 calls
attention to Abraham's believing two things about his seed. 1) He believed
God "who gives life to the dead" referring to the offering up and gaining
back of Issac (v24-25),and 2) He believed God who "calls the things not being
as being" referring to the birth of Issac (v19). Therefore the "things not
being as being" does not refer to Abraham's faith but to Issac's birth.
Because Abraham had such faith, he believed God's seemingly impossible word
concerning the birth of Issac, and he also immediately obeyed God's
commandment to offer Issac, beleiving that God would raise him from the
dead (Heb 11:17-19).
My summary is this: Romans 1:16-17 [my notes added] "For I am not ashamed
of the gospel [subject], for it [gospel] is the power of God unto
salvation to every one who believes, both to Jew first and to Greek. For
the righteousness [His] of God is revealed in it out of faith [source and
foundation] to faith [receiver and container], as it is written, "But the
righteous [those who have believed and therefore are reckoned righteous
by God] shall have life [Spirit of Life, the promised blessing to the
nations] and live [God's daily visitation to us] by faith [stimulated
by the presence of the life-giving Spirit in us, ref Gal 2:20].
Regards,
Ace
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| 17.7 | Terminology Disconnect??? | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:41 | 52 |
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Note 959.7 Romans 4 - Basis 7 of 49
YIELD::BARBIERI 46 lines 21-JAN-1997 08:14
-< Terminology Disconnect??? >-
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Hi Ace,
I really appreciate your preface into your last reply.
I'll reply with more thoroughness, but just want to lay
out one thought before a meeting I have in about ten
minutes.
I don't want to get stuck on terminology. Whatever word
you want to attach to it (not using the words two different
faiths), Abraham, when he first believed God, wavered somewhat.
He was uncertain. "Lord, how can I know?" "Sarah, I'm scared
I'll die. Pretend you're not my wife!" (OK, I took the liberty
to quote something, but I just want to clearly convey.) Abraham
simply was not fully convinced that what God said, He could per-
form. If he was, he need not fear for his life for if he would
be an heir, his life must be preserved.
My point is that the degree of certainty of Abe's belief varied.
I don't know how it is that you call that the same faith, but
in terms of *meaning*, that might simply be a terminology problem.
So whatever term you want to give to the truth that Abraham
believed God with varying extents of certainty, that thing did
differ over time.
And Abraham was accounted righteous at a point when he believed
with partial certainty because at another time Abraham believed
with full certainty.
Again, I'm no rocket scientist (and I truly don't intend sarcasm
here), but I cannot fathom another terminology than to simply
state that his beliefs were different (as the certainty with which
one believes is a characteristic of belief, imo).
In fact, didn't Jesus say of the Centurion, "Never have I seen
SUCH faith?" Does not the term "such" imply DIFFERENCE (i.e.
variation)???
Perhaps you could offer me a different terminology than faith?
There's more I'd like to say, but gotta run!
Thanks again for the spirit of your reply!
Tony
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| 17.8 | Seems To Support Varying Faiths | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:42 | 20 |
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Note 959.8 Romans 4 - Basis 8 of 49
YIELD::BARBIERI 14 lines 21-JAN-1997 10:02
-< Seems To Support Varying Faiths >-
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Hi Ace,
The more I think about it, the more I think the following
seems to support the idea that faiths can be different.
Jesus said, "Never have I seen such faith in all of Israel!"
(speaking of the Centurion)
Assuming others in Israel had faith, the word "such" implies
variation, does it not?
What do you think?
Tony
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| 17.9 | | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:43 | 13 |
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Note 959.9 Romans 4 - Basis 9 of 49
SUBSYS::LOPEZ "He showed me a River!" 8 lines 21-JAN-1997 12:35
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re.8
Hi Tony,
I think it indicates a degree.
Ace
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| 17.10 | | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:44 | 14 |
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Note 959.10 Romans 4 - Basis 10 of 49
CSLALL::HENDERSON "Give the world a smile each day" 9 lines 21-JAN-1997 12:42
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It is quite clear to me that it is a degree...
Jim
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| 17.11 | | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:44 | 6 |
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BIGQ::SILVA "http://www.ziplink.net/~glen/decplus/" 1 line 21-JAN-1997 13:10
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which one? and is it in c or f???? :-)
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| 17.12 | As long as it's not _lukewarm_ | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:45 | 9 |
| 17.13 | I'll Accept Your Terminology | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:46 | 25 |
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Note 959.13 Romans 4 - Basis 13 of 49
YIELD::BARBIERI 19 lines 21-JAN-1997 19:56
-< I'll Accept Your Terminology >-
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OK, I can handle that terminology.
By different faiths, I did not mean to intend that neither was
a heart-appreciation of the agape of Christ (which appreciation
is inclusive of belief/trust).
So, it still follows that God accounted Abraham righteous when
his faith was of a certain degree because of a faith Abraham
had which was of a 'different' degree, no?
And how is this truth accomadated by your gospel? Why should
it matter according to your gospel? Why does Abraham obeying
God's voice matter at all in terms of God being a blessing to
many nations?
How does this square with your understanding of the gospel?
Tony
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| 17.14 | The righteous are entitled to receive life | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:46 | 48 |
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Note 959.14 Romans 4 - Basis 14 of 49
SUBSYS::LOPEZ "He showed me a River!" 42 lines 22-JAN-1997 08:55
-< The righteous are entitled to receive life >-
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>So, it still follows that God accounted Abraham righteous when
> his faith was of a certain degree because of a faith Abraham
> had which was of a 'different' degree, no?
Maybe I don't quite understand the question. God didn't account
Abraham righteous because of a faith he did not yet have. Sure his
faith grew over time due to God's frequent appearings but in God's eyes
he was accounted righteous for the faith he had, not the amount of faith he
would eventually have.
>And how is this truth accomadated by your gospel? Why should
>it matter according to your gospel?
By this I take it you mean the biblical gospel. The blessing
spoken of to Abraham was the promise of the Spirit (also referred to as the
Spirit of Life in Romans 8). God could not rightfully give us the Spirit
without our being made righteous. "The righteous shall have life and live by
faith" Romans 1:17. Therefore, by our believing into Christ through faith, we
become righteous in position and are therefore entitled to receive life,
that is the Spirit, the blessing promised to Abraham. The more we are in
contact with the Spirit the more our faith will grow and we will "live by
faith". See Gal 3:14 also.
> Why does Abraham obeying God's voice matter at all in terms of God being a
>blessing to many nations?
Because if Abraham had not obeyed God's voice, he would not have
inherited the good land and his promised seed (Isaac) would not have come
forth to produce the nation of Israel from which Christ came forth to
produce the spiritual offspring of Abraham (us). Therefore, when we by
faith beleive in God's promise as did Abraham we are united with Christ and
thereby declared righteous by God becoming qualified and entitled to
receive life, that is, the promise of the Spirit, the blessing to many
nations.
> How does this square with your understanding of the gospel?
This is the biblical gospel.
Regards,
Ace
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| 17.15 | RE: .13 | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:47 | 89 |
| 17.16 | by faith | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:49 | 10 |
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Note 959.16 Romans 4 - Basis 16 of 49
PHXSS1::HEISER "R.I.O.T." 4 lines 22-JAN-1997 10:51
-< by faith >-
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Hebrews 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having
seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and
confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
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| 17.17 | RE: .16 | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:49 | 21 |
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Note 959.17 Romans 4 - Basis 17 of 49
ROCK::PARKER 15 lines 22-JAN-1997 11:20
-< RE: .16 >-
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Great verse, Mike!
Another valid translation is "all died according to faith."
The question is, was God's work complete in them by faith? If not,
then what to make of v. 16?
"...wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He hath
prepared for them a city."
V. 40 seems to indicate that we and they are perfected together. Might
that be because we are together blessed by the promise of which they
were persuaded?
God's perspective seems to be present tense! :-)
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| 17.18 | | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:50 | 9 |
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Note 959.18 Romans 4 - Basis 18 of 49
PHXSS1::HEISER "R.I.O.T." 4 lines 22-JAN-1997 11:50
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Exactly!
God accepted their faith in the coming Redeemer atoning for their sin,
regardless of the degree of faith they had.
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| 17.19 | | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:50 | 17 |
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SUBSYS::LOPEZ "He showed me a River!" 12 lines 22-JAN-1997 12:30
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re.15
Wayne,
>Is God's goal, His predestined end for us, if you will,
> that we be like Jesus in the flesh, or that we be like Him in glory?
Yes.
8*)
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| 17.20 | RE: .19 | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:50 | 9 |
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ROCK::PARKER 3 lines 22-JAN-1997 14:07
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Ace, my man, then stop arguing with Tony! :-)
/Wayne
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| 17.21 | From glory to glory | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:53 | 18 |
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SUBSYS::LOPEZ "He showed me a River!" 12 lines 22-JAN-1997 16:43
-< From glory to glory >-
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re.20 Waynester
I should have been more clear. 8*)
God's desire is that the glorified Jesus live His life in the glory
out through us now. Eventually this life union will result in us
perfectly matching for Him eternity.
Ace
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| 17.22 | RE: .21 | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:53 | 20 |
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ROCK::PARKER 14 lines 22-JAN-1997 17:09
-< RE: .21 >-
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Now you're talkin', my brother.
God's purpose is to glorify His Son as the firstfruits of a holy
nation. As His Word flows in, the Spirit enables reception and
appropriation, and His Word flows out.
Seems to me that this continual washing in both directions eventually
effects the cleansing. Why, that even sounds Scriptural! :-)
"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the
Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by
the Spirit of the Lord." (2Co.3:18)
/Wayne
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| 17.23 | | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:53 | 25 |
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HPCGRP::DIEWALD 20 lines 23-JAN-1997 11:00
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Tony,
Consider these verses.
Matthew 17:18-20
Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed
from that moment. Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and
asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?" He replied, "Because you have
so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a
mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, `Move from here to there'
and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.
Luke 17:6
He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say
to this mulberry tree, `Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it
will obey you.
Jill
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| 17.24 | Just Got Back | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:55 | 11 |
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YIELD::BARBIERI 5 lines 28-JAN-1997 18:32
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Hi,
Have been out since last Wed. I'll try to reply.
Tony
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| 17.25 | Seems In Direct Contradiction... | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:56 | 74 |
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Note 959.25 Romans 4 - Basis 25 of 49
YIELD::BARBIERI 68 lines 29-JAN-1997 09:14
-< Seems In Direct Contradiction... >-
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Re: 959.14
Hi Ace,
>So, it still follows that God accounted Abraham righteous when
> his faith was of a certain degree because of a faith Abraham
> had which was of a 'different' degree, no?
* Maybe I don't quite understand the question. God didn't account
*Abraham righteous because of a faith he did not yet have. Sure his
*faith grew over time due to God's frequent appearings but in God's eyes
*he was accounted righteous for the faith he had, not the amount of faith he
*would eventually have.
What you are saying (above) seems in direct contradiction to the plain
statement of the word of God...
Romans 4:20-22
He (Abraham) did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but
was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,
and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able
to perform.
And therefore (because of this/for this reason) "it was accounted to him for
righteousness."
Romans 4:22 is the only time I know of where the Bible explicitly states
WHY Abraham's _faith of its initial degree_ was accounted to him for
rightousness. The reason was because of Abraham's future _faith of a higher
degree_.
Quite honestly, you seem (to me) to be directly contradicting the clear
word of God. I mean, some texts may seem difficult, but this one is clear.
There is quite a lot I feel I could say, but for now I'll just volunteer
two things.
One, you seem to infer an entirely mystical explanation for the heart
change. You refer to the Spirit indwelling the heart in some mystical/
completely unable to comprehend way. The Holy Spirit's work in our hearts
is one of revealing the word of God. The Spirit reveals the character of
God. The word itself is the power.
You seem to suggest that the Spirit changes our characters in a way that
is above and beyond revealing. This is not true. The Spirit changes
our hearts in a way that is entirely revelational. "The message of the
cross is the power of God unto salvation." "You shall know the truth and
the truth shall set you free." The seed in the parable of the sower is
the word. The word itself is the power and the source of the word, ultimately,
is the Holy Spirit, i.e. God Himself.
You mentioned Abraham's faith growing by "God's appearing." Again, that
sounds a tad mystical or at least open to a lot of possible interpretations.
Let me suggest that Abraham's faith grew according to the following: "Faith
comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."
The last thing I want to say is that you referred to your understanding of
the gospel as "God's gospel." "If any man thinks he knows ANYTHING, he knows
nothing yet as he ought to know it."
I am so free because of my conviction that I don't understand the gospel
hardly at all. If nothing else, all else being the same, it helpe make me
more accessible for receiving further revelations of the gospel.
Ace, if you think you know it all already, you've just tied your hands. How
can your heart be willing to receive any more? Wasn't that part of the Jew's
problem? Can't we learn from their mistakes?
Tony
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| 17.26 | Totally Confused - Can You Help Me Out??? | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:57 | 26 |
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Note 959.26 Romans 4 - Basis 26 of 49
YIELD::BARBIERI 20 lines 29-JAN-1997 09:18
-< Totally Confused - Can You Help Me Out??? >-
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re: .23
Hi Jill,
Help me out, OK? ;-)
The disciples had faith, but it was insufficient, perhaps even
less than that of a mustard seed.
Does this negate the idea that _degree of faith_ lies on a
continuum? Does it refer in any way whatsoever to the basis
for why God accounted faith to him for righteousness?
Where can the basis for why be found in those verses you asked
me to consider?
If it can't be found, what is the relevence of those verses to
this topic which is about BASIS?
Tony
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| 17.27 | RE: .26 | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:57 | 18 |
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Note 959.27 Romans 4 - Basis 27 of 49
ROCK::PARKER 12 lines 29-JAN-1997 09:29
-< RE: .26 >-
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Hi, Tony.
I took Jill's point to be not so much the basis for God accounting
faith as righteousness, but rather the amount of faith needed to be
effective.
In other words, the verses Jill submitted seem to indicate that God
acts given even a miniscule measure of faith.
Jill can correct me if I'm wrong.
/Wayne
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| 17.28 | re .26, .27 | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:58 | 15 |
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Hi Tony,
As Wayne said (thanks Wayne) these verses don't seem to match with your
explaination of different faiths, or even growing faith which becomes
different and more acceptable to God.
Jill
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| 17.29 | Let's Sup With More Bread! | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:58 | 45 |
| ================================================================================
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Oh, OK, thanks for the explanation.
I do see things differently. The main work of God I am referring
to is the change of heart. Paraphrasing...
We all, as beholding a glass dimly, are changed from glory to
glory. 1 Corin 13 refers to seeing as we also are seen and
changing from a child to a perfect man, "when that which is
perfect is come." 1 John refers to being like Him when we
see Him _as He is_ which I take to refer to seeing the Word
not with the eyes of our flesh, but with the eye of faith.
Consider superimposing this support for being changed from glory
to glory with, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word
of God" and the text which refers to "from faith to faith."
I suggest that the extent of our heart change is proportional
to the extent of the glory of God beheld is proportional to the
degree of our faith. If we behold dimly, we are changed to that
same extent (dimly). When we behold clearly (as He is), we will
be changed in proportion (we shall be like Him).
Jill, the text you use seems to _possibly_ though not _necessarily_
support the notion that at the very initial response of faith, we
can be changed from complete unrighteousness to being even like Him
in character.
I think more texts need to be brought to the table and if they
are, they do not harmonize with this notion. Real life doesn't
seem to either. I've yet to see a perfect in character Christian
although I have seen many respond to that dim revelation of the
word of God which they have seen.
Hosea 6:1-3 is highly pertinent here as well. His coming in the
heart is not all at once, just as our faith-reception of Him
is not all at once, but gradual.
Tony
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| 17.30 | Faith and Righteousness | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 14:59 | 74 |
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"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not
seen." (He.11:1)
In other words, faith is the ground or reality of things I desire and expect,
and the clear proof of things I can't (yet) see.
"And being not weak in faith, <Abraham> considered not his own body now dead,
when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's
womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong
in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what He had
promised, He was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for
righteousness.
"Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for
us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on Him that raised up Jesus
our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised
again for our justification.
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord
Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we
stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." (Ro.4:19-5:2)
"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had
received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said,
That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise
him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure."
(He.11:17-19)
Examine carefully "it" that was imputed to Abraham for righteousness. "It"
was being convinced that God could bring life from death (dead seed and dead
womb), and thus accounting God able to raise Isaac from the dead. "It" was NOT
that God WOULD (later) perform what He promised, rather that God COULD (now) do
what He said, despite what Abraham (now) saw in the flesh.
"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, is He who hath
shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in
the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that
the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. We are troubled on
every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing
about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus
might be made manifest in our body.
"For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the
life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So the death
worketh in us, but life in you. We having the same spirit of faith, according
as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and
therefore speak; Know that He which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us
also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
"For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the
thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. For which cause we faint not;
but through our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more
exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which
are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen
are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal." (2Co.4:6-18)
God's imputing righteousness, then, is NOT based on something yet to be done,
rather on what is done already. He raised Jesus from the dead! Abraham
received (life to come through) Isaac from death "in a figure."
On the basis of God's Word, we who "believe on Him that raised up Jesus our
Lord from the dead" are righteous. And since we are righteous, based on no
merit of ours, but rather on His work, God owes us nothing, bound only by His
own Word to do what He promised, i.e., to make us like Jesus. In other words,
by faith we are righteous, and because we are righteous, "we know that, when He
shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." (1Jn.3:2b)
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| 17.31 | re .29 | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 15:03 | 31 |
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re .29
Hi Tony,
I suggest that the extent of our heart change is proportional
to the extent of the glory of God beheld is proportional to the
degree of our faith.
Yes I agree. But Remember, faith is a gift from God totally. You can
work at faith, but unless He calls you, unless He wills it, your faith
will not change by this work. God controls the amount of faith, God
controls the time of revelation, God controls all the gifts He gives
us. We need to be obedient and seek Him, but it is His plan, not ours.
Jill, the text you use seems to _possibly_ though not_necessarily_
support the notion that at the very initial response of faith, we
can be changed from complete unrighteousness to being even like Him
in character.
I suppose this is possible, but I haven't ever seen it happen. I
suggest that you need to look more deeply at the verses I suggested to
find a meaning that fits with the rest of the bible. (I will admit in
advance that I don't understand it yet either!)
Jill
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| 17.32 | More to ponder | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 15:03 | 27 |
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Does RIGHTEOUSNESS in the eyes of faith = SINLESSNESS in the eyes of flesh?
I believe faith imputed for righteousness evidences the life of Christ, and
what is seen depends on who's beholding and what's being sought.
Of Jesus our Father said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Of Jesus "righteous" men said, "Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a
friend of publicans and sinners."
Of Jesus' disciples "righteous" men said, "Behold, thy disciples do that which
is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day."
Of His disciples Jesus prayed to our Father, "As thou hast sent me into the
world, even so have I also sent them into the world."
"Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly
this was a righteous man."
The Apostle Paul said, "if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead
in vain."
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| 17.33 | An Impasse | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 15:03 | 22 |
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Hi Jill,
We will most definitely part our ways regarding your
sovereignty position.
God will most certainly give me as I am willing to
receive and if He had it His way, I would be willing
to receive _right now_ all that He so wants to give
right now.
"How I longed to gather you, but YOU WERE NOT WILLING!"
See also Isaiah 5.
Tony
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| 17.34 | Romans 4 Should Quote The Source of the "IT" Passage | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 15:04 | 28 |
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-< Romans 4 Should Quote The Source of the "IT" Passage >-
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re: .30
Hi Wayne
"Therefore IT was iumputed for righteousness."
Check your margin Wayne. I lack access to a Bible, but I
believe it is a quote from Genesis 17:1 or thereabouts
(15:1 perhaps?). The Bible should have the passage in
quotes and should footnote the source (in the margin).
Its quoted right from there! And then read on and see
Abraham doubt.
IT refers to his initial degree of faith. Being fully
convinced his final degree of faith. Then tie in the
Mount Moriah exp (3 days which is when we are spiritually
fully raised from the dead) and look for God's exhortation,
"BECAUSE you have done this thing..." and you might see a
lot of stuff going on!
Tony
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| 17.35 | RE: .34 | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 15:04 | 52 |
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Hi, Tony.
Are you referring to Ge.15:6, "And he believed in the Lord; and He
counted it to him for righteousness?"
Did I miss something, or was "it" referring to Abraham's believing in
the Lord then, not something later? Ah, but you agree "it" here refers
to Abraham's faith initially.
Ro.4:1-5 says, "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as
pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by
works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the
scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for
righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of
grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him
that justifieth the ungoldy, his faith is counted for righteousness."
And I was being careful to "tie in" the Moriah experience. Have you
really read what I wrote? See note .15 in this topic.
"And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second
time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because
thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only
son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will
multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is
upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because
thou has obeyed my voice.
"So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went
together to Beersheba..." (Ge.22:15-19a)
Note that "Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass;
and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you."
(Ge.22:5) This was before Abraham took Isaac up on the mountain with
instructions to "offer him there for a burnt offering."
So, when did Abraham actually give his son? On the mountain? The
Scripture says Abraham received him from the dead "in a figure." Or
should that be received Him "in a figure?" :-)
Indeed I do "see a lot of stuff going on!" :-) I trust you'll not miss
what's going on now while waiting for something later. Our "apocalytic
identity" is already established.
/Wayne
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| 17.36 | Believed, committed, persuaded | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 15:05 | 13 |
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What does the following passage mean?
"I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep
that which I have committed unto Him against that day. Hold fast the
form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love
which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee
keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us." (2Ti.1:12b-14)
|
| 17.37 | Some More... | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 15:05 | 42 |
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Hi Wayne,
I reread .30 and I did misunderstand you a little bit. You
mentioned "it" referring to Abraham believing right then that
God could raise from the dead/make a nation out of him, however
you do agree that this "it" was a lesser degree of belief than
the one referred to in the "therefore", i.e. being fully
convinced", right?
I believe the cross is the basis, but for a different reason.
This all dovetails so well with the idea that our deliverance
is the transormation of our hearts, The cross is prophetic of
a final Abraham with his Mount Moriah exp. It is a prediction
of it and it is what ENABLES it.
That is why I believe the cross is the basis. Because the
_message_ of the cross is the power of God unto salvation!
Because the cross can get us to fully live not for ourselves,
but for He who died for us and rose again (1 Cor 5). Because
the cross can make us perfect (Gal. 3:1-3). Because the very
image revelation of the blood of the cross can wash our hearts
completely.
That's why I think Genesis 22 is so compelling. As a type,
the blood of the cross enables the perfection of a last day's
Abraham's faith and the demonstration of that faith, i.e. the
symbolic three day time of trial. "Because you did this thing..."
Wayne, I'm sorry if I came off as kind of pompous and also for
being careless with you. I am so psyched you are looking at
these texts with me! The word is the power! Halelujia!!
God Bless,
Tony
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| 17.38 | brief digression | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 15:06 | 20 |
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-< brief digression >-
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.36
sigh...that verse reminds me of the hymn that was the favorite of a pastor
who's memorial service I attended this past summer..we sang it at the
close of the service, and to this day I get choked up thinking about it.
Jim
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| 17.39 | Study to show thyself approved | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 15:06 | 33 |
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-< Study to show thyself approved >-
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Tony,
I've no burden to say more concerning this topic than I already have.
>I am so free because of my conviction that I don't understand the gospel
>hardly at all.
Brother, the Bible charges us to study to show ourselves approved. God's Word
has revealed His gospel to us. If you don't understand the gospel it is not
because God prefers it that way. We have the Bible to make us clear concerning
what the gospel is. Not knowing the gospel is not knowing the truth and not
knowing the truth does not set you free. We have a responsibility to understand
what the gospel is according to God's Word. The Spirit's revelation will not
come to us apart from God's Word. If we cannot understand the Bible's definition
of the gospel, the Spirit has no ground to reveal anything further concerning
the gospel.
Secondly, if you don't understand the gospel then why do you reject the
fellowship of the other brothers here concerning this matter? Or why would
argue persistently against that which you don't understand?
I realize notes have the inherent weakness of not being able to convey
the heart.
Best,
Ace
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| 17.40 | RE: .37 | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 15:07 | 100 |
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Hi, Tony.
| You mentioned "it" referring to Abraham believing right then that
| God could raise from the dead/make a nation out of him, however
| you do agree that this "it" was a lesser degree of belief than
| the one referred to in the "therefore", i.e. being fully
| convinced", right?
** Okay, for the sake of argument, let's say "it" in Ge.15:6 (quoted in
Ro.4:3) and "it" in Ro.4:22&23 are different "degrees" of belief. Now,
since each was counted or imputed to Abraham for righteousness, then
which righteousness was greater? Did the righteousness imputed to the
"final Abraham" supercede that initially counted unto Abraham? Are you
suggesting that degrees of righteousness accrue to degrees of faith?
What to do, then, with "it" in Ro.4:24 referring to belief "on Him
that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead?" The context would indicate
the "it" in v.24 is the same "it" as in vs.22&23.
| I believe the cross is the basis, but for a different reason.
| This all dovetails so well with the idea that our deliverance
| is the transormation of our hearts, The cross is prophetic of
| a final Abraham with his Mount Moriah exp. It is a prediction
| of it and it is what ENABLES it.
** Jesus dying on the cross "is prophetic of a final Abraham with his Mount
Moriah experience?" Actually, I thought Abraham's and Isaac's Moriah
experience was prophetic of Jesus' death and resurrection. We're looking
at the same Scripture, so what am I missing?
| That is why I believe the cross is the basis. Because the
| _message_ of the cross is the power of God unto salvation!
| Because the cross can get us to fully live not for ourselves,
| but for He who died for us and rose again (1 Cor 5). Because
| the cross can make us perfect (Gal. 3:1-3). Because the very
| image revelation of the blood of the cross can wash our hearts
| completely.
** What is the Holy Spirit's role in the scheme you've outlined?
The gospel preached by the Apostle Paul, which we have received and wherein
we stand, by which we are saved, if we hold fast what was preached, unless
we have believed in vain, is that Christ died for our sins according to
the scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third
day according to the scriptures, and that He was seen of men. See 1Co.15.
Paul went on to say, "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are
of all men most miserable...For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ
shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the
firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. Then cometh
the end..."
Again, I'm not quite clear from whence you come, Tony. In this life only
do you hope in Christ to be perfected?
| That's why I think Genesis 22 is so compelling. As a type,
| the blood of the cross enables the perfection of a last day's
| Abraham's faith and the demonstration of that faith, i.e. the
| symbolic three day time of trial. "Because you did this thing..."
** Genesis 22 is indeed compelling! Not only do we see the operation of
faith, in both Abraham and Isaac, but also the love of God our Father and
Jesus our Lord. Not to mention God's provision of the ram "for a burnt
offering in the stead of <Isaac>."
| Wayne, I'm sorry if I came off as kind of pompous and also for
| being careless with you. I am so psyched you are looking at
| these texts with me! The word is the power! Halelujia!!
** I understand, Tony. You're convinced that you see truth that I and
others are missing.
Yes, I am looking at the same texts as you, yet we see differently. I'm
trying to understand what you feel is really at stake here. In that
spirit, would you answer the following questions?
1) Do you hold that our Lord will not return (come again or appear, if
you will) until an end-time group is perfected in the flesh, i.e.,
made like Christ in earthen vessels?
2) Do you (and others) desire to be like our Lord sooner than later as
part of that end-time group so that He may be seen as He is in glory
to usher in the eternal kingdom? In other words, do you believe God
is waiting to perfect a few (willing) people in the flesh before
Jesus appears?
3) Do you believe that we who on the basis of God's Word by faith and
commendation of the Holy Spirit see ourselves already made righteous
in fact will not be made righteous because our eyes will be blind to
the final revelation of Jesus Christ?
In Christ, the Author and Finisher of our faith,
/Wayne
|
| 17.41 | RE: .39 | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 15:07 | 22 |
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Boy, that's a relief!
You'd just cause all sorts of confusion, anyway! :-)
"Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from Him cometh my salvation. He only
is my rock and my salvation; He is my defence; I shall not be moved."
(Ps.62:1&6
A good man, a man that fears the Lord, "shall not be moved for ever:
the righteous shall be in everlasting remembrance. He shall not be
afraid of evil tidings: his heart is fixed, trusting in the Lord."
(Ps.112:6&7)
You're a good man, Ace!
/Wayne
|
| 17.42 | | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 15:08 | 11 |
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re.41
> You'd just cause all sorts of confusion, anyway! :-)
Including myself. 8*)
|
| 17.43 | RE: .38 | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 15:08 | 10 |
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'Tis no digression, JimBro. That verse has everything to do with the
basis of our faith. My Lord and my God is Faithful and True.
/Wayne
|
| 17.44 | Typical Laodicean Who Thinks He Knows | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 15:09 | 47 |
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re: .39
Hi Ace,
I was going to get up a halfway detailed reply, but thought the
better of it.
I'll just leave it nice and short.
The purpose of the cross is to cleanse the heart. Its message
IS the power of God. Your lack of discernment regarding me and
your less than perfect character testify to your incomplete
understanding of the gospel.
Those that know more about certain things are the very ones who
have the most questions. One who knows very little about chemistry
would have much less questions about chemistry than one who knows
a lot more.
Your understanding of the gospel cannot accomadate the truth of
Romans 4. It cannot accomadate the fact that the death of Romans
6:23 is experienced by PAUL. It cannot accomadate the fact of
a 2000 year time increment between the cross and the end of things
as we know it. The humanity of Christ (pre or post fallen flesh)
is probably unimportant. How the death of Romans 7 is latent in
sinful flesh is probably not often mentioned. How it is that
God solicits Satan's opinion in Job surely finds no accomadation
in your gospel.
You are a typical Laodicean. I advise you to at least begin to
believe in the word that characterizes us as we really are
(Laodicea).
If you knew the gospel as well as you think you did, you couldn't
sin for faith comes by hearing the word and the word is the power
and the context of "power" is its ability to transform our
hearts.
I do study by the way.
Tony
|
| 17.45 | Basis Not Well Accomadated | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 15:09 | 57 |
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YIELD::BARBIERI 51 lines 2-FEB-1997 17:50
-< Basis Not Well Accomadated >-
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Reply Note 959.40
Hi Wayne,
** Okay, for the sake of argument, let's say "it" in Ge.15:6 (quoted in
Ro.4:3) and "it" in Ro.4:22&23 are different "degrees" of belief. Now,
since each was counted or imputed to Abraham for righteousness, then
** which righteousness was greater?
The imputed righteousness, in either case, is equivalent. Being fully
the righteousness of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
** Did the righteousness imputed to the
"final Abraham" supercede that initially counted unto Abraham? Are you
** suggesting that degrees of righteousness accrue to degrees of faith?
No. Not at all. Either way, it was fully the righteousness of Christ.
I AM suggesting a few things though!
One, the fact that the BASIS for the imputed righteousness of Christ
is a higher degree of faith is NOT ACCOMADATED by the gospel as presently
understood. I know of not a single time this Conference (in all its
years) has ever even observed this point. Yet, it is the most explicit
reason scripture has ever given for why one is accounted righteous when
one first responds to God by faith.
Furthermore, I know of not a single Christian book that makes mention
of this truth.
** What to do, then, with "it" in Ro.4:24 referring to belief "on Him
that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead?" The context would indicate
** the "it" in v.24 is the same "it" as in vs.22&23.
Yes, but not the same degree of faith as verses 19-21!
By the way, its a bit off a tangent, but I'd like to suggest a more
spiritual application to the faith in Jesus being raised from the dead.
That would be a resurrection from the death of Romans 7:9. By that,
I refer to an experience entirely within conscious existence. When
sin is seen and guilt is tasted (death), the 'resurrection' of responding
to that load of guilt with a faith that believes God is with you.
Is this not the resurrection of the cross of which the physical is a
schoolmaster? (See Psalm 22, especially verses 9-11,19,24.
Which resurrection is the efficacious one? The physical resurrection
of Christ, or the spiritual 'holding' on of Christ when He tasted
death (guilt, the experience of Romans 7) for us?
I'll continue...
|
| 17.46 | Another 'Model' Fits Much Better | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 15:09 | 51 |
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-< Another 'Model' Fits Much Better >-
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Continuing on...
** Jesus dying on the cross "is prophetic of a final Abraham with his Mount
Moriah experience?" Actually, I thought Abraham's and Isaac's Moriah
experience was prophetic of Jesus' death and resurrection. We're looking
** at the same Scripture, so what am I missing?
Maybe they are prophetic of both! Maybe do a study of *three days*.
Ezra 10 is excellent. It happens when the rains fall. Hmmmm, like the
days of Noah! A three day experience of the word ("washed by the water
of the word" - Eph. 5:26/see also Deut. 32:1-2/Hosea 6:1-3/lots of other
texts). A huge endtime coming of the WORD! Of revelation.
Wayne, if you could just consider salvation to be the transformation of
our hearts AND that the death of the cross is implicit in our sinful
flesh (see Romans 7:23-24), the path of being made righteous is the
path of the cross.
We are made righteous by the word, but that same word exposes our sin
and thus we inherently bear its guilt. The process goes all the way
for the last generation for Christ is a forerunner behind the veil
(Heb. 6:20) and the last generation also beholds very image. Thus
virtually all of the lusts and passions of our flesh (Gal. 5:24) will be
fully exposed to us. We will be face to face with a full revelation
of the sinfulness of sin. We will thus inherently bear that load of
guilt.
In sinful flesh, the only way to be made righteous is to bear the cross.
NOW, consider Romans 4 with this model. If salvation is the making
righteous of our hearts, what is the relevence of faith? Faith allows
the merits of the cross (the blood of the cross = the message of the
cross) to transform our heart. BUT, our initial degree of faith doesn't
allow the word to finish the job.
But, God looks at that initial faith and essentially says, "I can mature
that." What is the relevence of that? (Romans 4 - by this I mean God
referring to a HIGHER degree of believing.)
The relevence is that a perfected faith allows that word to fully perform
its work, i.e. "Walk before Me (behold the message of the cross by faith)
and be thou blameless (simply do not resist the word and that word will
fully ransform your heart - See Gal. 3:1-3/2 Corin 5:13-15/HEB 13:12-13)."
Continuing on...
|
| 17.47 | WITH (and not instead of) Christ | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 15:10 | 57 |
| ================================================================================
Note 959.47 Romans 4 - Basis 47 of 49
YIELD::BARBIERI 51 lines 2-FEB-1997 17:51
-< WITH (and not instead of) Christ >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Continuing on...
Look how this all ties together!
If Abraham's Mount Moriah exp. is superimposed over his believing with
no uncertainty, what do you have? You have the word being able to come
in all the way. And then, you have that full exposure of sin which is
symbolized by THREE DAYS. Ahhhh, isn't it just coincedence (hardly) that
Moses exp. up Mount Moriah is three days? Isn't it something that it
seems to all his perceptions he is cutting off salvation. That is a type
of the last generation surviving the cross albeit a very different cross
than Christ's in one respect which is that He was a Forerunner and we
yoke up with Him. Note also, Abraham ascends a mountain (see Psalm 24/
Heb 12 and slews of other texts).
Anyway, Romans 4 makes all the sense with this *model*. It makes NO
sense with the gospel as popularly understood.
** What is the Holy Spirit's role in the scheme you've outlined?
The Holy Spirit's role in entirely revelatory. The Holy Spirit feeds us
with the Word. The Spirit gives us the message of the cross which is
the power of God unto salvation.
** The gospel preached by the Apostle Paul, which we have received and wherein
we stand, by which we are saved, if we hold fast what was preached, unless
we have believed in vain, is that Christ died for our sins according to
the scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third
** day according to the scriptures, and that He was seen of men. See 1Co.15.
Yes, no doubt. But, HOW does this truth save? Did He bear our sins because
the Father had to punish someone and so He dies instead of us? Or, did
He bear our sins because it is sin itself that condemns and His work is
to remove sin from the heart?
Either way, the cross is no less necessary. No less. Mark that please!
In the way I understand it, I could not have borne the reality implicit
in hearing the word all the way without a Forerunner to blaze that trail
before me. I need His cross. I need His revelation. The message of
the cross is the power I need to save me. And I need His love personally
directed on me during the whole process.
Not also, that the 'other' gospel says "Christ instead of us." Well, I
read that Paul was crucified WITH Christ. I read that Christ calls us
to bear HIS cross. I read that He was the Lamb of God and that we are
lambs as well and a last generation "follows the Lamb withersoever He
goeth" (Rev somewhere) and that we are to suffer with Him outside the
gate (the cross event) and this is tied to sanctification, i.e. being
washed by the word.
I'll continue...
|
| 17.48 | There Is A Need For A Perfected Last Generation | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 15:10 | 60 |
| ================================================================================
Note 959.48 Romans 4 - Basis 48 of 49
YIELD::BARBIERI 54 lines 2-FEB-1997 17:51
-< There Is A Need For A Perfected Last Generation >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Continuing on...
** Again, I'm not quite clear from whence you come, Tony. In this life only
** do you hope in Christ to be perfected?
No, of course not. But, God is longing for a generation to go all the
way with Him. The gospel, as presently understood, finds repugnant
the very idea of a group even needing to go outside the gate with Christ.
There is a BIG gospel misunderstanding here.
** Genesis 22 is indeed compelling! Not only do we see the operation of
faith, in both Abraham and Isaac, but also the love of God our Father and
Jesus our Lord. Not to mention God's provision of the ram "for a burnt
** offering in the stead of <Isaac>."
In our stead as a Foreunner yes, but not in our stead as a group who will
also go behind the veil and thus have the word expose all the filthiness
of our flesh. The last generation will know, this side of the 2nd coming,
even as He is known. A sword will come (Heb. 4:11-13).
1) Do you hold that our Lord will not return (come again or appear, if
you will) until an end-time group is perfected in the flesh, i.e.,
made like Christ in earthen vessels?
Yes. There is a great controversy over issues with Satan. (See
Job 1:8-12 as one example.)
God needs to demonstrate His ability to save to the uttermost. He
needs to demonstrate His ability to transform our hearts. This will
also deonstrate the life that is inherent to righteousness and the
death that is inherent to sin. For when the righteous drink of the
cup to its bitter dregs and survive and then the unrighteous do not,
it will be demnstrated that the righteous can survive the same load
of guilt the lost cannot. The righteous, when perfected, will feel
to be that sinner (thanks to sinful flesh), but will hold on as Jesus
did. The lost will not.
There are so many metaphors describing this. The birth pangs. The
storm that hits both houses. The fiery furnace of Daniel. So many
metaphors that depict saved and lost as bearing the same thing. The
presently understood gospel accomadates this badly as well/sees no
need for it.
This will show that God's justice is not arbitrary, but is entirely
according to realities implicit in sin and righteousness, even realities
God Himself submits to (in Jesus Christ). All of Satan's allegations,
i.e. sin is a viable lifestyle are negated at the time of the judgment
(Gen. 3:4-5). Se also Heb. 11:39-40 as well as the Corinthians verse
which speaks of a group who are BAPTIZED for the dead. These verses
all dovetail so perfectly with this 'model.'
I'll continue...
|
| 17.49 | The Word Effective Only As Perceived By Faith | YUKON::GLENN | | Mon Feb 03 1997 15:11 | 41 |
| ================================================================================
Note 959.49 Romans 4 - Basis 49 of 49
YIELD::BARBIERI 35 lines 2-FEB-1997 17:52
-< The Word Effective Only As Perceived By Faith >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Continuing On...
2) Do you (and others) desire to be like our Lord sooner than later as
part of that end-time group so that He may be seen as He is in glory
to usher in the eternal kingdom? In other words, do you believe God
is waiting to perfect a few (willing) people in the flesh before
Jesus appears?
Yes. But, we can hasten or delay that work (Isa 5/2 Peter 3:12).
I do not want to be presumptuous and claim much desire. God knows my
heart better than I do. May I have that desire!
3) Do you believe that we who on the basis of God's Word by faith and
commendation of the Holy Spirit see ourselves already made righteous
in fact will not be made righteous because our eyes will be blind to
the final revelation of Jesus Christ?
How are you presently righteous? Is not a righteous person a person
who does no unrighteousness? Might God be calling things which do not
exist as though they did?
Oh man, I need to parse this one. What do you mean by "made righteous?"
Do you mean God seeing us as righteous as Jesus? I believe that as well,
but just for a different reason, i.e. the basis as given in Romans 4.
Do you mean imparted righteousness? As in sinless in character? As in
presently living the same life of Christ? No Christian will know that
in this flesh even if they were. None will claim that.
The word is the power. We need the final revelation (whatever it be).
The word only works as it is perceived by the eye of faith.
In Him Who Can Make Righteous,
Tony
|
| 17.51 | More RE: .49 | ROCK::PARKER | | Mon Feb 03 1997 16:04 | 23 |
| God "quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as
though they were." (Ro.4:17b)
"Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this
world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after
that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased
God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the
Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach
Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks
foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks,
Christ, the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the
foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is
stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many
wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the
wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the
things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which
are despised, hath God chosen, yea, AND THINGS WHICH ARE NOT, TO BRING
TO NOUGHT THINGS THAT ARE: THAT NO FLESH SHOULD GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE.
But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom,
and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according
as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
(1Co.1:20-31)
|
| 17.52 | Paul Is Discussing The Gospel | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Feb 03 1997 17:50 | 47 |
| Reply Note 17.51
Hi Wayne,
** God "quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as
though they were." (Ro.4:17b)
...
AND THINGS WHICH ARE NOT, TO BRING
TO NOUGHT THINGS THAT ARE: THAT NO FLESH SHOULD GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE.
But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom,
and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according
as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
** (1Co.1:20-31)
Yeah, that's the verse (Rom. 4:17).
I suppose this is one of those impasses that we as frail, imperfect
in knowledge Christians often have. I'll just end by stating why I
see things differently and by "things", I primarily mean the idea that
_imputed_ righteousness is equivalent to _really being_ righteous,
Contrary to what Ace said in an earlier reply, the context of the BOOK
of Romans, at least from chapters 1-8, is the human condition and the
gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
When Paul began discussing the earthly example of Abraham's, he did
not do so to stray from his discussion over the gospel and then stray
back into the gospel. It is a gospel discussion. The earthly example
of Abraham is located within the context of Paul's discussion of the
basis of Abraham being imputed with all of the righteousness of Christ
at the point (and henceforth) he responded with faith to the agape of
Christ.
Romans 4:10
How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised?
Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.
"How was it accounted?" This is the context of the earthly example of
Abraham's. Which earthly example was Abraham being made a father of
many nations.
THIS EARTHLY EXAMPLE IS BEING INTERJECTED HERE TO TELL US SOMETHING
ABOUT THE GOSPEL.
I'll continue...
|
| 17.53 | Support (Which Seems Overwhelming) | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Feb 03 1997 17:50 | 50 |
| Continuing on...
Romans 4:17a
as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations."
(PAST TENSE)
Romans 4:18
who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father
of many nations, according to what was spoken, "So shall your descendants
be."
(FUTURE TENSE)
This is corroborated by the Genesis account...
Genesis 17:4
you shall be a father of many nations.
(FUTURE TENSE)
Genesis 17:5
for I have made you a father of many nations.
(PAST TENSE)
So, here is the earthly example that is used to help us understand
something about the gospel as given in Romans, specifically, "How was
it accounted?"
In the earthly example, God (sometimes) calls those things that do not
exist as though they did. In the earthly example, when Abraham was called
the father of many nations, he was yet childless, i.e. he was NOT the
father of many nations.
More than this, God is characterized as doing this very thing, i.e.
God "quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as
though they were." (Ro.4:17b)
More than this, with the earthly example, there was a discrete time
increment between God declaring Abraham to be something and Abraham
actually becoming that something.
More than this, again, the whole purpose of this discussion is how
faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.
More than this, we know what being righteous is. It is having the
mind of Christ. It is utter sinlessness in character.
Continuing on...
|
| 17.54 | Why Assume An Instantaneous Time Duration? (and more) | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Feb 03 1997 17:50 | 67 |
| Continuing on...
Wayne, I can show scripture in the NT that refers to perfection,
washing, being clean, justification, and righteousness as both something
we already are and something we are becoming (present continuous tense).
Laodicea is a church. It is God's church in the last days. How may
I ask is Laodicea both wretched and miserable and blind and naked and
completely and really righteous?
The Bible supports what reason already knows. God is calling us something
that does not exist as though it does.
The evidence is overwhelming. From the earthly example to the character-
ization attributed to God Himself to the context where the earthly example
is given to the fact that scripture is seen to do this same thing over
and over again to the reason of our own minds.
Just a couple more points...
** AND THINGS WHICH ARE NOT, TO BRING
** TO NOUGHT THINGS THAT ARE: THAT NO FLESH SHOULD GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE.
Did you assume the time duration of "to bring to nought things that are"
was instantaneous? If so, why? Was the time duration of our earthly
example instantaneous? Do people become sinless immediately upon
accepting Christ? (Isn't even accepting Christ progressive, i.e. see
Hosea 6:1-3)???
Did you also assume that I favor a 'looking to self' experience? Did
Jesus look to self? Why does anything I say imply looking to self?
Have I not said we are only changed by beholding HIM???
Have I ever said the work is ours (and thus we could glory in our
flesh)? Is not sanctification entirely Christ's work? (Acts 26:18)
This is nothing less than a paradigm shift. Its not overly complicated.
It just strikes against so many preconceptions. That is the best reason
I can think of for the elaborateness of the OT system God gave Israel.
To give us a sense of the transition that would take place "for all these
things happened as examples."
We should expect a transition from our belief systems at least equal in
magnitude to their own.
Finally, I have a different take on what imputed means. It means God
looks at us as though we are righteous. To actually BE is IMPARTED, I
believe. Imputed is how you are looked upon and God will finish His
work.
Well, Wayne, can you see why I believe one is not righteous when one
first has faith? The earthly example supports this. The characterization
of God supports it. Having scripture use both past and present continuous
tense (or future tense) supports it. Our own rational minds support it.
Everything supports is.
Everything except preconceptions that is.
I can only appeal to the word of God and the reasoning faculties God
has blessed us with. I cannot venture knowingly into the realm of
preconception.
In Him who can help us all see (Rev 3:18).
Take Care and God Bless,
Tony
|
| 17.50 | RE: .49 | ROCK::PARKER | | Mon Feb 03 1997 17:58 | 139 |
| >| 3) Do you believe that we who on the basis of God's Word by faith and
>| commendation of the Holy Spirit see ourselves already made righteous
>| in fact will not be made righteous because our eyes will be blind to
>| the final revelation of Jesus Christ?
| How are you presently righteous? Is not a righteous person a person
| who does no unrighteousness? Might God be calling things which do not
| exist as though they did?
** "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the wicked, nor
standeth in the way of sinners, not sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in His law doth he meditate
day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water,
that bringeth forth His fruit in His season; his leaf also shall not
wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. The ungodly are not so: but
are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. Therefore the ungodly shall
not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly
shall perish." (Ps.1)
"Cast thy burden upon the Lord, and He shall sustain thee: He shall never
suffer the righteous to be moved." (Ps.55:22)
"Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord
hearkened, and heard, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for
them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon His name. And they shall
be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my special
treasure; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth
him. Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the
wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. For,
behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea,
and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall
burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root
nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness
arise with healing in His wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as
calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be
ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith
the Lord of hosts." (Mal.3:16-4:3)
"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of
unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily,
while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the
deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the
beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day
if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation."
(He.3:12-15)
"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who
are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may
become subject to the judgment of God. Therefore by the deeds of the law
there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the
knowledge of sin. But now is the righteousness of God which is by faith of
Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no
difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being
justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ
Jesus: Who God hath foreordained to be a propitiation through faith in His
blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past,
through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time His
righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which
believeth in Jesus.
"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but
by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith
without the deeds of the law." (Ro.3:19-28)
There's MUCH, MUCH more, but suffice to say "to him that worketh not, but
believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for
righteousness." (Ro.4:5)
A righteous person is one declared righteous by God, period.
So, I would answer that I am righteous because God, according to His Word
and the testimony of His Spirit to my heart, has imputed my faith in Jesus
the Christ for righteousness and has declared me righteous, not in my sight,
but in His. I see myself as a sinner "whose iniquities are forgiven, and
whose sins are covered," and as blessed because "the Lord will not impute
sin" to me.
| Oh man, I need to parse this one. What do you mean by "made righteous?"
| Do you mean God seeing us as righteous as Jesus? I believe that as well,
| but just for a different reason, i.e. the basis as given in Romans 4.
** "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that
believeth...The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that
is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy
mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised
Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth
unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed."
(Ro.10:4-11)
| Do you mean imparted righteousness? As in sinless in character? As in
| presently living the same life of Christ? No Christian will know that
| in this flesh even if they were. None will claim that.
** The Holy Spirit through the Apostle Peter says, "Grace and peace be
multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
According as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain
unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that hath called us
to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious
promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having
escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this,
giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience
godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness
charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you neither
idle nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that
lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten
that he was purged from his old sins.
"Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and
election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an
entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting
kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Wherefore I will not be
negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye
know them, and be established in the present truth." (2Pe.1:2-12)
| The word is the power. We need the final revelation (whatever it be).
| The word only works as it is perceived by the eye of faith.
** Peter goes on to say, "Knowing that shortly I must put off my tabernacle,
even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. Moreover I will endeavour
that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in
remembrance. For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we
made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were
eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honour and
glory, when there came such a voice to Him from the excellent glory, This
is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came
from heaven we heard, when we were with Him in the holy mount. We have also
a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as
unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day
star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the
scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not at
any time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved
by the Holy Ghost." (2Pe.1:14-21)
In Him in whom we are made righteous,
/Wayne
|
| 17.55 | RE: .54 | ROCK::PARKER | | Mon Feb 03 1997 19:28 | 66 |
| Peace, brother. I, too, "can only appeal to the word of God and the reasoning
faculties God has blessed us with."
I "look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen:
for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen
are eternal." (2Co.4:18) Would you agree that were an end-time group to become
perfect in the flesh, their flesh is temporal? "This corruptible must put on
incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." (1Co.15:50-58)
By the way, how long is "a moment, in the twinkling of an eye?" And which eye,
flesh or faith? :-)
Are you saying that we are not perfect because we see ourselves (and others)
sinning? I'm trying to say that by faith we are perfect despite what we see in
the flesh. Why? Because God has declared us righteous based on the work of
His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. By the way, Jesus
is our Father's "ONLY begotten Son," not the first begotten Son of other
begotten Sons. We, on the other hand, are adopted, or Son-placed, because
Jesus became "the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death,
by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so
in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the
firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (1Co.15:20-23)
"I count all things loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my
Lord...that I may win Christ, And be found in Him, not having mine own right-
eousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ,
the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know Him, and the power
of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conform-
able unto His death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of
the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect:
but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am appre-
hended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count no myself to have apprehended: but
this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching
forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize
of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing
ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
"Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule,
let us mind the same thing...For our conversation is in heaven; from whence
also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile
body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the
working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself." (Ph.3:8-21)
I submit that God's Word is reality. And when He speaks of "things which be
not as though they were," He is revealing that which is unseen "to bring to
nought" that which is seen. Why? Because He intends that we walk by faith,
not by sight.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not
seen." (He.11:1)
My sense is that there is nothing more for me to say now. Yours will be the
last word, as our Lord wills. God sent the Comforter, not you or me, to lead
us into all Truth.
"And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep our hearts
and minds through Christ Jesus." (Ph.4:7) Let us "put on charity, which is the
bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in our hearts, to the which
also we are called in one body; and be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell
in us richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and
hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in our hearts to the Lord."
(Co.3:14-16)
/Wayne
|
| 17.56 | Misc. Answers/My Main Hope (Prayer) | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Mon Feb 03 1997 20:46 | 46 |
| Hi Wayne,
Peace to you as well!
Oh, I most heartily agree that Jesus is the only-begotten Son!
Essence of Divine essence, although I believe He did lay aside
all divine attributes while walking this earth and thus was
our "faithful" High Priest for "Of myself I can do nothing."
I think I discussed thoroughly enough a dichotamy between imputed
and imparted and the underlying basis.
Oh yes, I most certainly believe our flesh will be changed at the
time of the second coming and the sleeping saints will be raised
with incorruptible flesh while the translated ones will undergo
a transformation of the flesh on their way up!
On the "twinkling of an eye..." I admit to not giving this much
thought and to not knowing where this verse is (Colossians
perhaps?), but the following is a stab at it.
All second coming texts have a prior spiritual application that
refers to the finishing of the mystery of God which is the
finishing of the manifestation of Christ in you, the hope of
glory. A spiritual maturing of Christ in His believers
prior to the second coming.
In the spiritual sense, the resurrection of a body spiritually will
have a rapid rate at the close of time. Like Hosea 6:1-3. Almost
like a dam that is leaking precious few revelations of the cross,
at the end of time will be like a Niagara. The final scenes will
be rapid ones. In the scope of 6000 years of God's faithful
never entering into His rest and to go from Laodicea's spiritual
state to a perfected bride...I think that can fairly be described
as "in the twinkling of an eye."
And certainly the physical tranformation at the physical second
coming will be very fast indeed.
Well, may we all grow in realizing how little we know that we
can be better prepared to sit as little children before our
Teacher and eat bread from His hand is my prayer.
Take Care,
Tony
|
| 17.57 | Just Some Scriptural Examples | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Feb 04 1997 11:04 | 58 |
| Hi,
The following is from something I wrote. It just serves as
some examples.
How Much Does God Call Those Things That Do Not Exist As Though
They Did?:
The extent to which God does this is staggering. Consider the
following examples.
Sanctify
- calls those things which be not:
1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were
sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus
and by the Spirit of our God.
Hebrews 10:10
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the
body of Jesus Christ once for all.
- calls those things as they really are:
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being
sanctified.
1 Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you
should abstain from sexual immorality;
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and
may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is
faithful, who also will do it.
Wash
- calls those things which be not:
1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were
sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus
and by the Spirit of our God.
- calls those things as they really are:
Ephesians 5:25-26
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church
and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse
her with the washing of water by the word,
|
| 17.58 | More Examples | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Feb 04 1997 11:04 | 41 |
|
Clean
- calls those things which be not:
John 15:3
"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken
to you.
- calls those things as they really are:
2 Corinthians 7:1
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse
ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit,
perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Perfection:
- calls those things which be not:
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being
sanctified.
- calls those things as they really are:
1 Corinthians 13:10
But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in
part will be done away.
Ephesians 4:13
till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge
of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the
stature of the fullness of Christ;
Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I
press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has
also laid hold of me.
|
| 17.59 | More Examples | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Feb 04 1997 11:04 | 45 |
| Justification:
- calls those things which be not:
Romans 5:18
Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all
men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's
righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in
justification of life.
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He
called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He
also glorified.
1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were
sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus
and by the Spirit of our God.
- calls those things as they really are:
Romans 2:13
(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God,
but the doers of the law will be justified;
Romans 3:24
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that
is in Christ Jesus,
Galatians 3:24
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we
might be justified by faith.
James 2:24
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith
only.
Daniel 8:14
And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then
the sanctuary shall be cleansed. [justified]"
For this last text, please refer to Appendix A, Page 54, which
show the renderings for the Hebrew word rendered cleansed here.
In the vast majority of cases, it is rendered justified.
|
| 17.60 | Appendix A, Page 54 of what? | ROCK::PARKER | | Tue Feb 04 1997 12:55 | 86 |
| Hi, Tony.
RE: .56
| On the "twinkling of an eye..." I admit to not giving this much
| thought and to not knowing where this verse is (Colossians
| perhaps?), but the following is a stab at it.
** "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom
of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a
mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment,
in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For
this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on
immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and
this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass
the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where
is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and
the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the
victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye
steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch
as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord." (1Co.15:50-58, KJV)
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which
sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. For this we say unto you by the word
of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the
trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are
alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to
meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore
exhort one another with these words.
"But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write
unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh
as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and sfety; then
sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child;
and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that
day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and
the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore
let us not sleep, as others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that
sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of
faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not
appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with
Him. Wherefore exhort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as
also ye do." (1Th.4:14-5:11, KJV)
RE: .54
| Did you assume the time duration of "to bring to nought things that are"
| was instantaneous? If so, why? Was the time duration of our earthly
| example instantaneous? Do people become sinless immediately upon
| accepting Christ? (Isn't even accepting Christ progressive, i.e. see
| Hosea 6:1-3)???
** When did God choose "things which are not, to bring to nought things that
are?" What is real and when was reality established?
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1Co.15:26) When and
how is death destroyed?
Most certainly we do not become sinless in the flesh immediately upon
accepting Christ. We are, however, JUSTIFIED and declared righteous
immediately upon accepting Him. And those who receive Christ by faith,
i.e., see themselves dead and buried with Him and raised in Him to newness
of life, have been predestined to share His glory as adopted sons.
So, I would ask again, when exactly does unseen reality established by God
occur? When and how quickly is faith imputed for righteousness? Was
Abraham sinless? Only Jesus lived in our flesh without sin. The basis of
our being declared righteous is seeing our sin put to death in Him who knew
no sin and seeing His life worked out in us. When and how do we "see" that
which God declares done?
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not
seen."
I guess I wasn't done, after all. I intended to only point out where "twink-
ling of an eye" was found, but that brought me back to your original question.
:-)
Tony, I very much appreciate your heart, and your reliance on the Word of God.
/Wayne
|
| 17.61 | Thanks Wayne... | YIELD::BARBIERI | | Tue Feb 04 1997 15:46 | 27 |
| Hi Wayne,
Just a quickie. I was careless with regards 'Appendix A.'
I submitted part of a paper I wrote called, "A Summary of
The Plan of Redemption." It was p. 54 of that.
What do you do with verses such as "BEING [present continuous
tense] justified freely by His grace"? I think you know what
I 'do' with texts that say we already are justified. The same
thing as texts that say we already are glorified. Submit them
to Romans 4, "God who calls those things which do not exist..."
and also refer to the earthly example furnished by God as a
guide (father of many nations).
Don't know how much replies I have time for and my next workday
is Sunday.
Thanks for your compliment at the end. I feel the same for you
in a big way. Truth be told, my conscience is pretty clear
regarding my personal studying to show myself approved. I
wouldn't want to presume my Lord would say, "Well done My
faithful servant!", but I don't think He'd accuse me of throwing
this particular talent under the ground either!
See Ya,
Tony
|
| 17.62 | RE: .61 | ROCK::PARKER | | Tue Feb 04 1997 20:38 | 21 |
| Hey, Tony.
| What do you do with verses such as "BEING [present continuous
| tense] justified freely by His grace"? I think you know what
| I 'do' with texts that say we already are justified. The same
| thing as texts that say we already are glorified. Submit them
| to Romans 4, "God who calls those things which do not exist..."
| and also refer to the earthly example furnished by God as a
| guide (father of many nations).
** You probably won't "like" my answer, but I hope you will consider my words
in light of what I've tried to share about faith.
The present continuous tense is how we come to see what God has declared
us to be. In other words, His life, or our salvation, if you will, being
worked out. Our faith becoming sight, according to the measure of faith
given.
Grace and peace be multiplied to you.
/Wayne
|