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Conference hips::uk_audioo

Title:You get surface noise in real life too
Notice:Let's be conformist
Moderator:GOVT02::BARKER
Created:Thu Jul 28 1988
Last Modified:Mon Jun 02 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:550
Total number of notes:3847

252.0. "CD <->DAC Cable ?" by HAMPS::IVES_J (I've got a bad feeling, Mr Tracey!) Mon Jan 14 1991 14:54

    
    
    
    I have noticed  diiferent manufacturers supplying cables designed to be
    used between CD and external DAC. Many of these cost ####### ( a lot).
    
    I'm interested to know if anyone has tried any or has any experience of
    these. Theoretically they carry the bits from the transport to the DAC,
    they either work or they don't I would have thought.
    
    I use TV coax, but have thought of trying a short length of Thin-wire
    ethernet, from a length that I know to have been discarded (Honest
    Jon).
    
    Any External DAC users out there ?
    
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
252.1thin wire seems goodHAMPS::IVES_JI've got a bad feeling, Mr Tracey!Wed Apr 03 1991 12:5013
    lonliness is : "Answering your own Note" sigh
    
    but seriously . . . I tried the thinwire and it certainly seems better
    thasn the TV coax which the DAC supplier recommends.
    
    For anyone interested you can make life easier for yourself as TANDY
    sell BNC to phono plug adaptors. these just connect on the end of your
    thin wire or whatever . No soldering needed. 
    
    I should add though that you should'nt "nick" thin wire from the
    company. The length I got was in a bin and suspect. I cut the
    connectors off (most likely the cause of the bad connection) and
    soldered phono's on either end. Re-cycled you might say!
252.2LARVAE::JEFFERYI shot the sherrif (and the deputy!)Wed Apr 03 1991 16:511
    Wonder if you could send ethernet traffic down at the same time??
252.31010 = 1010 in any languageCRATE::WATSONAs simple as possible, not simplerWed Apr 03 1991 18:4349
OK,
	Silly questions about Digital Audio time again.

Most (all) digital audio playback devices (DAT / CD / DCC) can be thought of as
follows

	     Digital(1)                      Digital(2)        Analogue
Storage-Medium	->	Transport		-> D/A Converter -> Analogue
(CD/DAT/DCC)		(1st half of integrated	   (2nd half of
			CD/ CD transport / ...)     CD / Outboard DAC)

In an ideal world Digital (1) should equal Digital (2) (data format excepted)
This is obviously not the case 'cos CD transports sound different.
Is this because they have better acoustical isolation / error correction or
what ?

I've heard that one of the most important thing about the digital signal path is
that the timings between the chunks of digital info has to be exact. In the
case of getting info off a CD this should be simple. CD's are sampled at 4xKHz
so each chunk of digital info is 1/4xKHz apart. No problem there.

Error correction : Well I guess error correction must be pretty well sorted for
CD's. Proof : If there was a high error rate then the RRD40 in the VAXstation
wouldn't stand a chance of reading Bookreader books ! - OK I'll concede that
the RRD40 can have a few tries if it hits an error - but so could a CD player.

So the Digital signal going into the transport (1) is a good as the signal on
the CD. All the transport has to do is to reformat this info into a form
suitable for consumption by the DAC's. (Write a 10 line BASIC program to copy
input to output).

Now comes the difficult bit. This digital data gets converted into a bit stream
and sent to the DAC. This probably has no error correction _but_ I guess will
say something like ..

...	``This 16bit chunk is the left  hand channel of the 4xKHz signal''
	``This 16bit chunk is the right hand channel of the 4xKHz signal''
	``This 16bit chunk is the left  hand channel of the 4xKHz signal'' ...

So I can't see how any error can be introduced here and hence all interconnects
should sound the same unless the analogue parts of the receiving DAC gets
upset by the characteristics of the connection lead. I could understand this
for optical .v. coax but not coax .v. coax.

Then the DAC converts this hitherto perfect digital signal to analogue. Now, I
can understand _lots_ of differences here - but thats another story.

	Rik
    
252.445235::KORMANtgif!!Wed Apr 03 1991 19:5874
This is quite long:


I'm no expert, but this is how I see it:

Unfortunately, 1010 <> 1010 in any language - there are many things that can
affect the bit stream ariving at the DAC, even if we ignore RF noise, Power
supply modulation by the digital IC's (stick a 'scope on the +Vcc line of a
VAXstation 3100 and look!), PSU modulation and noise from the servos etc.

Let us assume, for now, that the CD transport reads the data with some errors.
Since there is redundancy in the data  - CRCs, multiple copies on the disk etc,
some of these errors can be completely corrected - so you might think that they
would be inaudable. In a perfectly designed and executed player that might be
so, but most (all) the current players are  flawed in some way (see below). 
If there are too many errors (ie the error burst is too long for the error 
CORRECTION algorithm (which is the same for all CD players - it's math) to be
used, the player goes into error CONCEALMENT mode - that is, it attempts to 
calculate what the missing data might/should/would have been by interpolating
between the last correct data and the next correct data - which could take more
time (see below again). The error CONCEALMENT strategy used by different player
may differ, but I suspect that most of the budget players use one of the
commonly available chip-sets and thus do it much the same way. Some very 
expensive DACs (WADIA et al) I believe make use of custom programmed (ROM) 
microprocessors and may have several different concealment strategies, which 
may/will have different effects on the sound if brought into play. If the error
is too big for concealment, the player simply mutes the output - hence the 
clicks you get with a bad disk.

Question - why are some players better at error correction than others.

Answer - they aren't - they may be better at error CONCEALMENT, and they may
	have better quality or better aligned transports, resulting in fewer
	errors off disk, and thus less need to use the concealment functions. 

The first problem that appears in digital systems, even when all data follows
the same path, is that tiny (ie. fractions of a bit time)
timing errors can be introduced - thus even though the data rate may average
44.1Khz over several frames, the position of each 16 bit word will waver about
the ideal position; this is called JITTER and is thought by many to be one of
the main reasons for CD player differences. Even reclocking the data through
a set of shift registers will not remove all the jitter - it's a very difficult
job to design jitter free digital systems. This jitter does not affect the 
content of the data, but it does affect the time that the data arrives at the
DAC, and thus the time that the DAC is strobed to start the conversion. Thus
there are small time domain distortions in the analogue output which can be
heard.


The Transport-DAC link is another problem. Most CD players have a lousy drive
circuit for the digital co-ax output. It usually has a series resistor to
protect against shorts, and a fairly high output impedance. Similarly, many
DACs may not have the ideal input impedance to match the transport driver.
In this sort of situation, the transmission characteristics of the cable used
can provide a better or worse match. Mis-matching on this link will change
the shape of the signal, which may/will cause the logic thresholds to shift in
relation to the original pulse generation time. This can lead to futher timing
errors. The US based AUDIO conference has a detailed description of the effect
of fitting a properly designed output stage to a CD transport. (I can't yet 
think why most hi-fi reviewers find co-ax better that optical though - it 
ought to be better as it avoids most of the problems above, and also cannot 
pass out-of-band electrical noise etc - or can it?)

To summarise - even given fully corrected digital datastreams (ie error 
concealment was not used), if you feed a given DAC from a number of different
CD transports, there will be differences in the analogue output due to 
different amounts of jitter (timing error) produced by each transport, and by
the effects of the data link between the transport and the DAC. This is before
any out-of-band (noise, RF, PSU modulation etc) are considered.

By the way - I am about the biggest cynic I know when it comes to hi-fi. I
still have problems with DIRECTIONAL cables etc! and other funny tweaks.

Dave