Conference 7.286::digital

    We used to sell an Automated Tape Library monster from StorageTek
    called the 4400ACS and also one called the Wolfcreek 3480/3490
    Automated Tape Library system.  Both of these are described in the
    January 1995 Systems and Options catalog on pages 677 and 676.  They
    will mount and store 19.2 T and 1.6 T of on-line storage.  Obviously a
    lot less storage than what the customer is looking at.  (Boy 300 T is a
    lot of info.  What is this application that has this much data
    on-line?)  I suspect these are rather dated products and that
    StorageTek has newer products with higher capacity.  
    
    These products I believe are sold through CSS and try contacting them
    at 1-800-832-6277.
    
    You can also try getting a hold of the people at StoragTek.  They can
    be reached a couple of places.  One is on the Internet-www.  Their home
    page is http://www.stortek.com/  I just brought it up on the PC here
    and they have all their products on-line for access.
    
    They speak about a product called RedWood which can handle 300TB of
    information on 6,000 cartridges.  The Redwood stores up to 150Gb per
    cartridge and is single 1/2 inch cartridges.
    
    StorageTek has a direct sales force here in the USA and use channel 
    resellers in other parts of the world. 
    
    They can be reached at:
    
    			Storage Technology Corp.
    			2270 South 88th St.
    			Louisville, Colorado 80028-4310
    
    Good luck.
    
    Mav

Lisa:

  300TB? That's a LOT of data!

  We have a cooperative marketing arrangement with Storage Technologies
  ("StorageTek") and they certainly sell high-volume, automated tape
  archive systems, but I don't recall what the capacity of a given
  module was. (The modules use "3480" cartridges.)

  Still, they'd be a good starting point because, if they can't do it,
  they'd likely know who, if anyone, can.

                                   Atlant

Another possibility is our own product, the TL820 tape library.
With current drives (TZ87), the capacity is 5 TB per library
(264 tapes X 20 GB/tape) soon to be doubled with the TZ88 drives.

These libraries can be ganged together to provide additional capacity.

The TL820 has the advantages of being far smaller (about refrigerator-size)
and cheaper than the STK silos.  Also, due to higher capacity tapes,
there is less time spent changing tapes for large data transfers.

On the downside, the 3480/3490 drives seem to have higher data rates
while they are spinning.

    The application is a "Contunious Electron Beam Accelerator
    Facility".....Data comes in from the beam at a continuous rate of 40
    Mbytes per second.  .......lots and lots of data!
    
    thanks for the pointers so far...!
    
    lisa p

RE: .4

	Can you have a RAID array of disks to capture the output and then
	spool off to tape afterwards? If so, the solution in .3 wouldn't
	be bad.

							mike

    Contact Don Ganley on MSGAXP::GANLEY. He is the Tape and Optical
    Library Porduct Manager. He can guide you on this.
    
    Dave Dufort
    TL810/TL820 Eng.

Lisa,

First of lets get some of the facts sorted out!

The only corporate product that comes near the requirement is the TL820, this is
a DLT based robotic system that is based on a modular unit that will hold 2.5
TBytes (uncompressed) of data, 5 of these units can be connected to form one
logical robot of 12.5TBytes. If you accept that the data can be compressed, and
we normally talk about a typical value of 2:1, a fully expanded TL820 will hold
26TBytes (264 Cartridges * 5 Cabinets * 20GBytes per tape) The only problem is
that the DLT drive used in the TL820 (TZ87's) are slow with a data rate of
1.25MBytes/sec (2.5MB/sec @2:1 Compression). This can be alleviated by the fact
that you get 3 drives in each cabinet and therefore you can effectively "stripe"
the data across the drives, remember that a fully configured TL820 has 15 Drives
(3 per cab * 5 Cabs). 300 TeraBytes would be approximately 120 Cabinets! As the
TL820 is SCSI connected it will easily connect to Digital Unix (But will need a
lot of SCSI channels)

Otherwise you have to look at products produced by CSS (Computer Special
Systems). CSS have for several yaers been selling a connection to the StorageTek
ACS4400 and WolfCreek libraries. An ACS4400 is also modular (and also VERY big)
a single module can hold today, approximately 9TBytes (5500 tapes * 1.6GBytes
per tape [200 * 2 (36 Track) * 2 (Double length tapes) * 2 (2:1 Compression)] )
and the total size depends on the depth of your pockets (and the size of your
computer room!) 300 TeraBytes would be approximately 33 modules (STK have
several customers who have that many modules, including at least one in the UK)
BUT and its a big but, the current STK connection is for OpenVMS only!!

So the problem of capacity is easily overcome and with the future enhancements
of using the TZ88 in the TL820 will half the number of cabinets, while STK's
Redwood drive, which using helical scan technology will put 50GB on a cartridge
will allow STK to use a single module.

The two problems left are speed and connectivity:-

Speed: Even the TZ88 will not help the TL820 it only has an increase of
.25MB/sec. But the STK Redwood is already rated at 9+MB/sec for a single drive,
mind you they are not very cheap (use a guide price of 150K dollars each).

Connectivity: The TL820 works now on Digital Unix although i am not sure if
PolyCentre HSM for Digital Unix supports tapes yet! The STK connection is a big
problem as there are currently no quailfied h/w connections (SCSI) and no way of
driving the robot (The s/w (DCSC) that is used on OpenVMS has not been ported to
Digital Unix!) Of course you could always consider UniTree.

I havent mentioned the IBM 3495 robot, as although we have an OpenVMS solution
we do not have any plans at present to connect it to Digital Unix UNLESS you
would like to pay us to do it!!

For details of STK connectivity:-

In the US	Robert Fox @MKO
		Brian Keaveny @MKO (for possible futures)
In Europe	John Lockwood @SBP
		Gerald Connolly @SBP   <-- Thats Me

Of course we would be happy to sell you consultancy on this subject. Contact me
for details :-)

Gerald

    CSS-UK did build the connection between VAX and the large IBM tape robot.
    End-user is Fokker Aircraft, order to dec was given by IBM.
    Could be an alternative to Storagetek.

	wasn't D2 technology supposed to address this very space? high speed,
	high bandwidth, high capacity, high cost!, low MTBF!! I haven't
	seen much recently about this; there was a vague reference a while
	ago that CSS was working on a D2 based solution....and the only
	outside vendor I could find that mentions D2 is Ampes (that in
	a Unitree Web page).....

	_kelley

	Oh, and I almost forgot...KOM makes an optical tape solution that
	support over a TB *per drive*; also high speed and high cost...

	_kelley

	with a little prodding from Atlant, I did some checking...
	the Unitree Web page I was referring to
	(http://www.clearlake.ibm.com/unitree/fact_sheet.html)
	had a typo; it should read Ampex, not Ampes...a little looking
	around and I found http://www.nml.org/industry/ampex.html which
	had info on the DST 810; 6.4 TB D2 tape library...I would look
	some at the IBM Unitree page above; Unitree HSM also runs on
	Digital UNIX and maybe one of the tape solutions listed there
	would fit the bill (I tried to get to Unitree's Web page
	at www.unitree.com, but their server is either unwell or
	something else: ping yes but access no)....

	_kelley

Kelley (et. al.):

  IBM reports on a 3490-based tape library that claims to have a
  capacity of 567 TB.  See:

    http://www1.ibmlink.ibm.com/HTML/SPEC/g2133283.html


  There may be other good references off the web page at:

     http://www.nml.org/industry/prod_info.html


                                   Atlant

re: <<< Note 3994.12 by ATLANT::SCHMIDT "See http://atlant2.zko.dec.com/" >>>

>>  IBM reports on a 3490-based tape library that claims to have a
>>  capacity of 567 TB.  See:
>>
>>    http://www1.ibmlink.ibm.com/HTML/SPEC/g2133283.html

	18,900 cartridges! YIKES!! must take a month just to load the
	damn thing!!! doubt you'll get this thing to work on
	Digital UNIX (but who knows: with that kind of money on the
	line, IBM might be willing...)

>>  There may be other good references off the web page at:
>>
>>     http://www.nml.org/industry/prod_info.html

	http://www.nml.org/industry/products/metrum/RSS-600b.html:
	the Metrum RSS-600b looks like it comes close to the basenoter's
	request:

     * Storage capacities of 12.6 TB 
     * High storage capacity per square foot floor space 
     * Maximum 8 seconds access to a single cartridge 
     * 16 seconds cartridge exchange time worst case 
     * High MTBF/low MTTR 
     * Advanced robotic cartridge handler 
     * Automated inventory capability 
     * Security for system and data 
     * Lowest cost media in the industry 
     * Media load/unload via "mailbox" 
     * Versatile software commands 
     * Up to six high-performance tape drives 
     * 2MB/sec sustained transfer rate with RSP-2150i drive 
     * 4MB/sec burst transfer rate with RSP-2150i drive 
     * Standard RS-232C or SCSI-2 hardware interface for robotic control 
     * SCSI interface for RSP-2150i drive 

	*AND* works with Unitree HSM!

	I hope this pile of info is useful to the basenoter; somewhat
	of a rathole for ::DIGITAL...

	_kelley

Lisa:

If you want real data on this, you need to contact the folks who sell these 
solutions for Digital, CSS.  Call these two people, in this order, and they 
should be able to give you everything you need:

Andrew Linnell DTN 264-0311  Heavy storage performance guru
Brian Keaveny  DTN 264-2968  Storage Systems Manager

The outside area code and exchange are 603-884-xxxx.

They should be able to help you get anything that you need.  You might also 
want to find out who your local CSS contact (CS4) is, because he or she can 
help you in a variety of custom solutions such as this.

Mark Richardson
CS4
Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, West Virginia, Western PA

    Thanks you all for your help....I knew this was the right forum for the
    question....sometimes you just need a pointer.
    
    FYI...just spoke with Mike LeBlanc, Digital Project Manager for
    StorageTek solutions for Digital UNIX.....The Redwood family of
    products is starting field test in September with first revenue ship in
    November some time.  
    
    The biggest challenge is finding some HSM software to drive this puppy!
    Any HSM products (remember must be compatible with CERN FATMAN and
    SHIFT). ?????
    
    thanks again
    
    lisa

    I would do some background checks on support before suggesting a 
    Metrum solution.  I have been working with just such a solution for
    the last month.  They claimed 2mb/s streaming transfer rate, but the
    unit tests out at only 1.25mb/s.  We've also had a problem getting
    tech support because not a single person who helped develop the
    product still works there.  The documentation stinks and their tech
    support personnel, although courteous and responsive, have admitted
    they don't know enough to help us very much.
    Cheers,
    --Dave

    
    CSS contacts for Europe are:-
    
    Storage Business Development Manager:
    John Lockwood @SBP (SHIPS::LOCKWOOD_J) 782 2240
    
    Tape Library Product Manager:
    Martyn Worman @SBP (SHIPS::WORMAN_M) 782 2204
    
    
    Storage Consultant:
    Gerald Connolly @SBP (MASS10::GERRY) 782 2099
    
    
    Gerald

    re back several,
    
    The problem with D2 and Metrum etc, is that they are all helical scan
    technology with high wrap angles and tape tensions. this leads to high
    tape and head wear. The D2 drives are extremely expensive and high
    maintenance requirements.
    
    The STK Redwood drives are also helical scan but THEY say they have all
    these problems resolved, but i have heard (but not confirmed yet) that
    the MTBF is very low (compared with DLT)
    
    Gerald

Gerald:

> The problem with D2 and Metrum etc, is that they are all helical scan
> technology with high wrap angles and tape tensions. this leads to high
> tape and head wear. The D2 drives are extremely expensive and high
> maintenance requirements.

  I'd be interested in your source or a reference for this claim.
  D2 is rapidly becoming a television broadcast standard, is it
  not? I'd imagine its reliability can't be too bad or it wouldn't
  be successful in that very demanding marketplace.

                                   Atlant

Atlant,

	My understanding is that D2 uses helical scan technology and as such
will have all the pitfalls of that technology, the main ones being high TAPE and
HEAD wear!! Yes the TV broadcast industry uses D2, but then they have lots of
money to buy and fettle these unreliable (by the computer industry, standards)
devices. The drives are very expensive and tapes and heads have to be "lifed" to
maintain the playback quality!! The characteristics of these and other drives in
use in the TV industry is pushing the whole industry to use digital technology
and to use other storage mediums to hold their expensive programs and adverts!
Hard disk being the favorite! Their datarate requirements (about 33MB/sec) rule
out all (most) computer industry based tape drives for direct to air play, but
can be used for tertiary storage!

Gerald

PS	I look after the European end of the AlphaStudio product set, Digital's
push into the digital Broadcast TV marketplace!