Conference 7.286::digital

    I'll try!  If the disagreement has to do with ethics or legalities
    (such as lying, killing, sabatoge etc) I'd have to refuse.  If this
    became a big issue, I'd quit, or be fired for not doing what I was
    ordered to do.  If the disagreement is over my personal preference
    such as smoking vs not smoking I'd do the job.
    
    Hope I'm answering what you are asking...
    
    Jim Morton

    Digital doesn't pay you for your personal views.  Anytime you refuse
    legitmate work, you risk getting fired, plain and simple.  That's not
    to say I wouldn't refuse certain work conditions though...

    For the most part, over the many years that I've been here, I've found
    that Digital's policies in areas like these have a high degree of
    common sense baked into them. For instance I call on a large company
    that is subject to occasional union work stoppages, complete with
    picket lines. I might have some personal view or opinion about whether
    of not to cross those picket lines. The policy (as I have understood it
    from local management) has always been to apply common sense about any
    danger or feeling of personal uneasiness and not cross the picket
    lines, if there was any doubts. I've also seen cases were Digital
    policies were applied to protect female Digital employees from sexual
    harassment by male customers, again with common sense as the baseline.
    
    However, it is easy to see how some of today's topics of passionate
    personal choice - smoking policies, lifestyle preferences or
    religiously grounded beliefs - might not be covered by policy or even by
    common sense (since in some of those cases beliefs hold sway over what
    some might describe as logic or common sense). In those cases, if the
    old hack "You do what ya gotta do" doesn't suffice, then don't do it.
    Life's too short to spend a good deal of it everyday in fear or disgust
    or revulsion because of your job. Do something else.
    
    But, that's just my opinion and I could be wrong.
    
    -OFWAMI-
    
    

    How strong are your beliefs?  Take Digital out of it and ask yourself
    some questions.  How do you deal with other smoking problems?  Do you
    shop in stores that sell tobacco products?  Would you own stock in a
    tobacco company?
    
    You are in a wonderful area where you (and only you) can decide. 
    Opinions from friends and coworkers may help you decide, but it's up to
    you!
    
    Mark

    I run into the same scenario every time there is a service call at one
    of our 3 nuclear power plants in the area. Our hardware controls and
    monitors lots of stuff, in areas that I personally do not consider
    safe. I do what I have to do, but don't think I like it one bit.
    
    .mike.

    
    The only time I've ever had a problem was setting up a project team for
    a telex switch in a country I'll leave unnamed. The FS called for a
    scan of all messages looking for keywords, examples of which were
    "sex", "drugs" and "rock-and-role". It didn't rule out amendments such
    as "opposition", "civil liberty" and "police brutality". 
    
    Fortunately, nobody wanted to work on the project and so my company
    (not Digital) was forced to duck the contract and I was saved the
    problem of having to make a decision.
    
    I have two minds about this, on the one hand no company is a democracy
    and it shouldn't be forced to make commercial decisions this way. On
    the other hand the people in the company should have some say in what
    they do or do not condone prior to the one big vote with the feet.
    
    Digital is not permitted to work for some of the worlds undesirable
    characters such as S.Hussain, but there are still enough others around
    to raise such issues. The country above is not on the DPL.
    
    Mike.
    (Who will not do anything for money.)
    

    I know what you are talking about. Back in the 70's I had to work at a
    major Drug company repairing their systems, and periphals for Digital.
    They did extensive testing on animals at this place. It bothered me,
    but I did my job, and kept my opinions to myself. I'm sure, that if I
    had asked, I would not have to have gone there, Digital would have
    found another engineer to handle it. I now make regular visits to a
    Nuclear power plant, and that is fine with me. One engineer said that
    that bothered him, and Digital went out of their way to keep him out of
    there. So, I think if you have a real strong belief that conflicts with
    what digital wants you to do, they will work with you.
    
    Conrad
    

    Personally, I do what's in the company's and the client's best
    interest.
    
    If it's not in the client's best interest, I issue CYA memos (which
    usually sends everyone scrambling for cover, as now the problem is
    ...gulp... *documented*!)  If we do it anyway, then at least everyone
    was warned and I was commanded to go through with it.  That's a
    management call, not mine.
    
    If it's not in Digital's best interest, I send the same memos and let
    management decide (once again, their call).
    
    No one hired me for my views on smoking, gun control, race relations,
    animal testing, homosexuality, or abortion.  They hired me to make cash
    for the company and its shareholders.  It's in *my* best interest to
    stay employed and I try to make damn sure it's in Digital's best
    interest to *keep* me employed.
    
    God, it must be rough for some people out there to use a public
    restroom!  "Was this recycled toilet paper?  Was the seat made in China
    by jailed dissidents?  Does the Standard Valve company have enough
    women in management?  I think I'll just hold it until I get home...".
    
    My questions: Is PC (Politically Correct) and SC (Socially Concerned)
    really TG (Thought Gestapo) at some point?  When did "valuing
    differences", which I think is great, become "Value *my* difference,
    screw yours!"?
    
    If an employee refuses to do an installation at Colgate-Palmolive
    because of animal testing they should be given the opportunity to find
    new employment that doesn't offend them...immediately.
    
    								Tex

	I can't see where your personal beliefs should have any effect on your
job with digital. You are paid to do your job. If your personal beliefs get in
the way of your job, find a new one.  Digital is not asking you to support
the tobacco industry. They are asking you to sell systems to the customer that
want to buy them. If we started limiting our sales to companies that did not
make harmful material we would be out of business in minutes.

	As Mr. Foley stated, our service enginners are required to enter harmful
and possible dangerous environments to service a customers equipment. I myself
spent many hours in chemical plants on the gulf coast. Working in Chlorine,
Caustic Soda, PolyBiphenolChloride or PolyUrethane plants were not fun, but a
necessary part of my job description.   AS we used to say do the right thing,
as long as it's right for digital.



Keith

    >  How others in Digital cope with these conflicts...
    
    Why is it such a conflict?  You choose not to smoke, as do I.
    However, holding tobacco companies responsible for other people 
    smoking is a bit like holding gun manufacturers responsible for
    killings.  If people didn't CHOOSE to smoke, R.J. Reynolds and 
    Philip Morris would have been out of business long ago...

    Tex...
    
    I don't think it's very healthy for you to internalize your feelings so
    much.
    
    Why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?
    
    tony	;^}
    

    Most of the notes in this string mention smoking as a topic to consider
    expressing their personal concerns about.   While I have no doubt about
    their sincerity, or question anyones belief in the dangers of smoking
    to both the smoker or those around them, I wonder why there isnt a
    similar degree of concerns expressed around other behaviors such as
    alcohol consumption?  Smoking related health problems are just as
    preventable as alcohol related health problems.  Abstention from either
    does not prevent you from suffering harmful effects if those around you
    use either one. 
    
    Why shouldnt alcohol be held up as a behavior/industry/topic for
    discussion on personal codes vs. business?
    
    KO

This topic - business ethics - was on the agenda at the latest 
CTG seminar.  I first thought it seemed like a boring session,
but it was far from it, mainly due to the speaker.  His name
is Professor Joseph Badaracco, at Harvard Busines School, and
I assume there are some book(s) out there by him if you'd like
to read about it.

One thing he made clear was that as an employee you are by law
(labor law) required to serve the company/shareholders interests.
But the other three "voices" that talks to you ("conscience, people/
businesses, partners") must also be taken into consideration.

One scenarios he used as an example:
AS a manager you know about pending head count cuts, despite the 
official word of no more, but your under absolute gag order. A 
friend has just been offered a job in a to-be-cut group, and will
go out on a limb finacially to relocate etc for this job. What do
you do?

It was quite clear that this issue could be VERY difficult.

>    Why shouldnt alcohol be held up as a behavior/industry/topic for
>    discussion on personal codes vs. business?

No-one said it couldn't.  This note is about conflict between
personal values and corporate business.  Smoking was simply an
example; we can't tell from the base note whether or not the
author's problem (presumably he has one, to start this note)
is anything to do with a tobacco company or whether it was
a hypothetical case.  We can't even tell what the author's
opinion on smoking might be; he said "if".

So, if you'd like to enter a reply offering your opinion
on what you'd do if you had to deal with a DEC customer whose
business is hustling liquor, please go right ahead.   Or if
you for some reason have strong feelings about dealing with companies 
which have errors of grammar in their advertisements, let's
talk about the moral issues here.  Or anything else germane
to the base note.  Just let's not discuss the moral ranking
of one vice compared to another.

    Actually, that one was answered years ago:
    
    "If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my
    friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country."
    					-E.M. Forster

But, if betraying your country (rather than your friend) gets 10,000 
people killed - and YOU KNOW IT, which is ethically worse ?

Alan

[I always hated that platitude, and I like my country]

    And exactly how is "betraying one's country" defined?
    And what exaclty do you mean with "country" anyway?
    And who defines what ethics are?
    And how do we say what is better or worse ethics, since ethics
    itself determines the concept of better or worse.
    And how do you determine what a friend is anyway?
    And why did I take all those philosophy courses if all I
    can do is end up asking questions?
    And why are all these open cans lying around with these worms
    crawling around?

    
    	Roelof, because it is the end of the fiscal year; people go into
    advanced uncertainty mode; and every year at this time we get one of
    these doozy me versus business ethics type of questions.
    
    	Since most of us are either bored silly right now, overworked and
    stressed out, or just plain frustrated, these things take on a life
    of their own...
    
    	Personally, I'm much more concerned about my beloved Chicago
    Blackhawks beating the tar out of the Detroit Red Wings and advancing
    to the finals of hockey's Stanley Cup.
    
    	But then I could be wrong...
    
    
    			the Greyhawk

Now me, its football (the USA kind). The only reason I visit Boston at 
the end of Jan is for the Superbowl

Whats this got to do with ethics ? Well, I'm committed to my belief 
that one day the Bears will win !!!!

Alan

    ohhhh, alan,
    until that last comment I had the GREATEST respect for you!
    
    tony
    ;^

    Now we get the the nub of this issue.
    
    Suppose you're a Blackhawks fan, and Digital asks you to configure a
    custom system to help the Red Wings?
    
    Or, worse, suppose you were asked to help out with a new Friends and
    Pyramid Schemes calling circle system?

    Glad to share my experience, very positive support from the company. 
    Being a child of the 60's I am anti-military by nature (you can extend
    to other anti's, but this is the one that related to work).  I spent 10
    years in the field doing pre-sales support.  After the first time I
    was asked to assist in a sale to the Navy I had a talk with my manager. 
    I requested that I not be assigned to any military business or defense
    contractor.  I understood that if he said no, I was risking my job and
    I was willing to take the risk.
    
    As it turned out, he was happy to support my decision - as has every
    other manager I've had since.  Also, since I worked closely with sales
    reps I had to explain to them why I would not work on such and so an
    account.  I never had any push back or problem.  Ever.  I did go ahead
    and work on that first project, as I had not pre-warned my manager.
    
    Now I'm in a corporate marketing position and I've relaxed a little
    with the end of the cold war.  I still won't talk to the military, but
    I'll do a presentation to a defense contractor - especially if they're
    looking a peace conversion projects.
    
    In short, my personal beliefs have never been compromised by the
    company, nor do I feel that I have done the company any harm.
    
    I greatly respect the support that Digital has given me over the years
    (in this and so many other ways) and that's a major reason I'm still
    here.
    
    Ken Berkun
    Seattle
                                                            

    I can recount three experiences in this area which show that some
    companies, including Digital, do care what they do to people...
    
    At a job interview with a defence contractor it was made clear that
    they made bombs and mines, and they understood that whilst they looked
    upon themselves as part of the peace industry, others may take a
    different view.  They made sure before I accepted the job offer that I
    was comfortable with their product set's characteristics.
    
    When I arrived to install some software at a security printers I was
    told that at all times I would be accompanied everywhere.  If I thought
    I'd find that in the least way intolerable they would understand and
    only ask that I ask my manager to find someone to do the installation.
    
    Digital management asked if I would support Ministry of Defence sites,
    which would involve security vetting.

    Well, being serious for a moment, I think everyone has ethics - strong
    or weak. However, it can go further than that....
    
    I know from personal experience - I was asked to do something that I
    thought was illegal (a grey area in export stuff). I refused and was
    made redundant (no, that was not the only reason, I was told).
    
    However, I would do that again, and I hope that anyone else would too.
    
    Alan

    
    Tom
    
    you must spend an awful lot of money in your pharmacist :-)

    re-3
    
    Steve,
    
    
     you have already been sold (down the river) to M|OT|O|R|O|L|A,
     as from Saturday 24th June 1995.
    
     SQF Jambo #1

    Have you been on the Jellys....????  (Tamazapam)
    
    
    

    Count me in......
    
    
    Do you get a free Bong when you join...??
    
    
    
    *:@))

        RE:.31

      > He faced same problems as Ken, but recognized need to lay people off,
      > given situation as he saw it.  He swallowed hard and did it, but many
      > people give him no credit for that.

    	Ya he swallowed real hard as he asked employees to live on 1 & 2% 
    and for a great majority 0% raises while he pocketed 20% for himself.

    
    Thought I was in the medical notes file there for a moment, then I
    thought I was in the humour notes file.
    
    Now I know I'm in cloud cuckoo land.
    
    Ian.

    Dear moderator, 
    
    I suggest to write lock this topic to let the 2 or 3 individuals to
    continue their dialogue through other means e.g. MAIL.

    >That 20% is what the Board gave him.  They saw a "great improvement" in
    >attitude (do whatever it takes vs. do not do what you know it takes in
    >Ken's case) and wanted to reward THAT.  This was not obvious to the rest
    >of us and the Board was incompetent at marketing their decision.  But Bob
    >earned his money.
    
    No, 20% is what he took.  He had the opportunity to turn the raise
    down.  He had the opportunity, like his counterpart at DEC Nippon, 
    to reduce all executive salaries by 10%.  He had the opportunity 
    to make a powerful and significant symbolic gesture.  He chose not to.
    
    

I have write-locked this topic and would like to suggest other forums other than
the Digital conference for what has turned out to be mostly a personal
discussion.

Paul, co-moderator