Conference 7.286::digital

	What we should do it ship a shaggin CDROM with the software
	with those systems.

							mike

    wouldn't it be cheaper to have them return to the store and exchange
    the system?

    RE: .0 -
    
    We are not alone in this.  Packard Bell does the same thing.  It's not
    only a problem on initial install; with the P-B's, even if you do the
    backups as instructed, the disks are not "installable" versions, just
    copies of what is on the drive, if you catch my drift.
    
    I'll go with, at a minimum, the "grab it off the net" concept.  This is
    only common decency toward our overworked ServiCenter folk.
    
    M.
    

    
    	You can order just the "media" from PCBYDEC for $25.00. I don't
    have the part number handy but its a QA***etc., I believe. Many of
    our VARs do it this way.
    	While its a tad sloppy, my suggestion to the PCBU folks reading
    this is that they place an envelope in each Starion box for a consumer
    to send in their $25.00 and get the media kits.
    	Seems a practical suggestion to me...
    
    		the Greyhawk

    Or do what Gateway does and provide a CD-ROM with the contents.
    
    Note that even our most expensive Alpha systems require you to order
    distribution media separately.
    
    					Steve

    compaq requires you to cal a toll free number to purchase the disks. to
    buy the whole set costs $55.00. would have been simpler if it all came
    on a cd-rom. 
    
    

    .. er excuse me...
    
    the drives may fail before the punter can do his/her backup.. ?
    Getting a media kit is one approach.
    
    try better drives ?

    You could try complaining loudly. A few months ago I bought for my
    father a Compaq laptop through CompUSA. After turning it on and missing
    that first prompt about backing stuff up to diskettes, it nixed all of
    the installation stuff on the disk. I called them up and argued that
    since they were advertising software bundled with the laptop, I should
    be able to sell the software to someone else, (After all the license
    says so) and by not giving me the INSTALLATION (as opposed to backup)
    media they were preventing me from doing so. I also reminded them that
    many tech support lines instruct you to "reinstall product X" and they
    were in effect leaving me (my father to be exact) open to trouble in
    the future.
    The end result: Original installation diskettes arrived by FedEx over
    the next few days. 
    
    Personally as a software engineer, I refuse to purchase something I
    can't reinstall and tinker with as I please.
    
    	Your mileage may vary
    
    		Yaacov

I took me less than 30 minutes to create the 18 floppies from the FIS on
my Celebris.  There were several, extremely visible exhortations to do so
in the "getting started" brochure and User's Guide.

However, I think it would be cheap enough to throw in a CD-ROM with the
bits.

					Steve

Fer godssakes, they've *giving away* CD-ROMs with
magazines these days.   And we can't afford to put one
in the box with a shipping PC?

(I know it's probably an inventory thing rather than
 a cost thing.  The fewer parts that have to be put in the
 box the better it is.)
 

    
    RE: .10 
    
    Adding CD-ROM... it's a cost thing too.  If everyone had their way we 
    would have ALL the docs on-line, too;  Want to remove cover and install
    options, simple... print out the book.  Troubleshooting... printout the
    book.   Warranty and repair info... print it out.  Some of us still 
    preach that "think customer" thing from Business 101.
    
    gb
      

> wouldn't it be cheaper to have them return to the store and exchange
> the system?

  For another vendor's?  Aye, there's the rub!  Ship the CD-ROM!

                                   Atlant

    
    unfortunately the image loaded vary by order. sending a backup CD ROM
    may not be that simple.
    
    Also in my opinion when we ship > 1 million systems, every buck counts.
    Besides the large majority of orders are still not requesting CD
    drives, the backup CD ROM may not be much use for most customer.
    
    maged

    "Aye, there's the rub!"
    
    Look, it happened again!  Bits and quotes from ASKENET floated over
    here.  What's going on?
    
    :-)
    
    Mark

I think the media on CD-ROM would be nice but .0 claimed the HD drive failed.  The only solution here would be to
return the system as a DOA.  Even if you had media with the system 999 x out of a 1000 you would install it on the
HD drive.  A back-up solution would be the QA# from DECdirect, but you still have a broken disk or /controller,
etc.  My 2 cents ...

         <<< HUMANE::DISK$CONFERENCES:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< The Digital way of working >-
================================================================================
Note 3669.15                PC sales from Sam's CLub                    15 of 15
NETCAD::RBROWN                                        4 lines   3-FEB-1995 17:07
                            -< The disk is broken? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the media on CD-ROM would be nice but .0 claimed the HD drive failed. 
The only solution here would be to return the system as a DOA.  Even if you had
media with the system 999 x out of a 1000 you would install it on the HD drive. 
A back-up solution would be the QA# from DECdirect, but you still have a broken
disk or /controller, etc.  My 2 cents ...

    Thanks to everyone so far. We where able to contact and individual
    and get a complete disk. 
    
    	I think one point bears mentioning. We sell "ONE YEAR ON_SITE
    WARRENTY" with this critter. That means we go site in the nice lady's
    living room and fix this thing. HE/SHE could take it back if they
    wanted to, but we are obligated to repair it in their home if they
    choose. This customer lives 70 miles from the store. their preference is for
    us to come to the machine rather then bring the machine to SAM's who
    delivers it to us.
    
    In honesty, SAM's tried to help. They gave us access to another to
    build media but this particular model was sold out and the software
    on the other model didn't match. We also hade problems with the "ARMOR" 
    software SAM's runs to protect the machines on display.
    
    I will post the procedure to get a replacement drive pre-loaded with
    software as soon as I locate the other engineer.
    
    Jim

    On a separate but interesting note re: Sam's and our PC's...
    
    I was in my local Sam's Club here in Irvine this weekend.  The
    higher-end model is on display on the end cap of the computers aisle,
    and I was pleased to see the stock of that unit getting lower and
    lower.  
    
    But the really interesting thing was that the Digital unit was being used
    to showcase....OS/2 Warp!  The software box and price tag were sitting
    right next to our computer, and the system itself was running the OS/2
    Warp demo!
    
    I got a little giggle out of the irony of a Digital PC showcasing an
    IBM product, especially considering there were a couple of IBM units on
    display around the corner of the aisle.
    
    M.
    

    Actually, the reply in .2 is not correct.  At least not in my
    experience.  A friend of mine just purchased a packard bell system last
    month, and sure enough, it came with a CDROM and a boot floppy so you
    can rebuild the entire hard disk, factory fresh, with essentially no
    effort.  
    
    ...and this is becoming more and more common.  The review of home PC's
    in PC magazine from December 1994 made it very clear that this is
    something you should strongly consider when buying a PC for home.  I
    think Digital is really blowing it on this.  If we expect to sell PC's
    in Sam's Club and CompUSA, then we've got to realize who we're selling
    to.
    
    Let's get with the program and include the CDROM.
    
    >>>Joe

    re: -1; This may be Packard Bell policy now, but it was not 12 months
    ago.  I have (2) friends who purchased Packard systems in late
    '93/early '94 -- one multimedia system, one not -- and *neither* of
    them received the media for the "basic" software (i.e., DOS, Windows,
    standard applications, etc.).  The CD-ROM system, did, of course, come
    with CD's for an encyclopedia, a couple of kid's games, etc., but *not*
    the main applications, like MS Works.
    
    Two thumbs up to Packard for changing that policy; let's hope Digital
    does the same, soon!
    
    M.
    

    hooray for PB!  Maybe in 12 more months DEC'll be including a CD, too. 
    
    'Course, by then, PB will have a synchronous satellite, direct
    up/down-link AND the PC's will be wireless, loading their WINDOWS 95 or
    WARP OS via satellite links!
    
    then what will DEC do?
    
    ;^)

      PB probably found that the savings made by not providing the
    distribution media were largely cancelled out by the costs and hassle
    involved in dealing with customers who'd managed to blow away their FIS
    and had no means of recovering. If there are no licencing issues, the
    cost of the media is very low, when they are bought in bulk by a
    manufacturer. Support calls cost money, and telling the customer "You
    should have read the manual and followed the instructions, we can send
    you the disks (possibly charging for the privelige) to rebuild your
    system" doesn't cut it in the consumer world. Too easy to take the
    system back to the retailer and demand a refund, even if it WAS their
    fault for a)not reading the manual or startup screens and/or b)doing
    something else stupid. The direct cost of dealing with one returned PC
    (aside from hidden costs like loss of goodwill, bad publicity etc)
    probably cancels out the savings made by leaving out dozens of sets of
    media.
    
    Ken

    
    	Hello, McFly... Earth to DEC
    
    	Just today a large Pacific rim medical company had 3 systems they
    managed to wipe out before calling MCS.  Now, since we didnt provide
    licensed distribution media (yes that means removeable storage!),
    we are using our own distribution to rebuild them at our cost in terms
    of labor,...
    	I dont think the margin on these products is adjusted for this
    degree of field involvement.  Now, on the other hand, if they had
    the media in hand and couldnt put all the marbles "back in the bag"
    we would be in a better position to accept dollars for labor, post
    haste.
    
    	This is part of change isnt it?
    
    	We mention the problems, someone listens, processes improve!!!
    
    	
    Mark
        

    
    
    
    We've found the enemy, we are him........

    .24 is one example of a major problem around here. One group 'saves
    money' by eliminating something (media). Then hundreds of field poeple
    take action to recover. The problem gets fixed hundreds or even
    thousands of times, many of which we pay for in the name of customer
    sat.
    The rest the customer pays for, and has no sat!
    
    ALl because some bean counter decided they could eliminate a service.

.26 is right on.  too many claimed cost savings are really cost transfers,
that increase costs.  an easily measured cost is eliminated, and 1000
people each pick up 1% of the original cost by doing work that they should
not have to do. 

    Cute!
    

    I've always liked the following statement I read somewhere once,
    
    "Most cost savings are just a way of spending someone else's money
    without their permission."

My wife just bought an Apple Macintosh Performa 6115CD.  Nice machine.  Comes
with lots of bundled software, including 4 different CD-ROMs (Encyclopedia,
almanac, kids' games sampler, etc.)

It also comes with a fifth CD-ROM which contains:

o A FULL backup of the hard drive as it comes out of the box.

o A PARTIAL backup of just the applications.

o A partial backup of just the System Folder (i.e., the Mac OS)

o Installation kits for optional bits of System 7.5 not included by default on
the HD (QuickDraw GX and PowerTalk).


From what I've seen around our office (where the PATHWORKS for VMS (Macintosh)
and PATHWORKS for Macintosh folks live), all CD-ROM equipped non-Performa
Macintoshes _also_ come with bootable, installable system software on CD-ROMs.


Were we in the market for a PClone, if I discovered that the Digital products
didn't come with some sort of backup of the FIS, we would NEVER have bought
them.  Period.  No matter what the company name on my badge was, how good a deal
the system was, how great the system's quality, or whatever.  No way to
reinstall the software without saying "Mother, may I"?  Fine.  Keep it.

And making backups during initial set-up is not an answer.  Most people DON'T
THINK THAT WAY.


Apple _tried_ what Digital is doing now, back in the days of the Macintosh IIlc
and IIsi.  They shipped machines without including the OS distribution on
floppies.  This was in the System 6.0.x days, WHEN THE OS ONLY NEEDED FOUR
FLOPPIES.  If you lost your hard drive, you had to contact Apple or a reseller
for a kit.  The outcry was intense and well-deserved.  They learned.

Will Digital?

John Francini
PATHWORKS Server Engineering

    
    I would guess that the reason we're not doing this is that it's too
    expensive in a commodity market.  Customers would definitely
    appreciate having the media if they have to recover.  I guess selling
    the value of the media is too difficult in a commodity market,
    especially when we're busy trying to convince the market that we're a
    viable vendor.
    
    Bruce

    
    	There is a BIG difference between being a "viable vendor" and a
    vendor that differenciates product in the marketplace. If everybody
    in PCs does NOT supply media, then wouldn't one who does be a
    differenciator?
    
    	We keep assuming the buying public is stupid. It is not. My
    teenagers know more about PCs than any executive here at Digital.
    They "surf" the net, they build their own interfaces, and they
    add devices like seasoned engineers. And they continually *bitch*
    about vendors support (read lack of...), documentation, media,
    and testing.
    
    	Maybe we should talk to who really purchases PCs these days.
    I don't buy anything not approved by my "pros".
    
    
    		the Greyhawk

    re .last
    >if everybody in PCs does not supply media, then wouldn't one who does
    >be a differenciator?
    
    Yes, they'd have to charge a higher price, which would be the
    differentiator.  In the retail market, price comes well before
    features... you either play the low cost game, or you sit on the
    shelf.  KB

    > re .last
    >    >if everybody in PCs does not supply media, then wouldn't one who does
    >    >be a differenciator?
    >
    >    Yes, they'd have to charge a higher price, which would be the
    >    differentiator.  In the retail market, price comes well before
    >    features... you either play the low cost game, or you sit on the
    >    shelf.  KB
    
    Exactly what I meant with .31.
    
    Bruce

    re. 32
    
    "My tennagers know more about PCs than any executive here at Digital."
    
    SURE!  Sure they do.
    
    I bet your children, sent via the Internet, the idea and the design for
    the HiNote, directly to the engineering, manufacturing, marketing,
    distribution and advertising people at Digital and bypassed all the
    "know nothing" executives who obviously had absolutely no part in any
    of it.
    
    SURE!  Sure they did.
    

|    I bet your children, sent via the Internet, the idea and the design for
|    the HiNote, directly to the engineering, manufacturing, marketing,
|    distribution and advertising people at Digital and bypassed all the
|    "know nothing" executives who obviously had absolutely no part in any
|    of it.

	Whats your point? Maybe they did but they're too shy to claim the
	fame ..

	A sure sign of age is discrediting the young because they are young.

    My point is that one should not be so quick to belittle excutives at
    Digital.  Many of them do an outstanding job, especially those in the
    PC business.

    
    	Geez, lighten up. Not demeaning Digital executives per se. Just
    	pointing out our focus on retail is not necessarily the best
    	approach to profits in the PC business. remember this thread
    	is in regard to retail selling of PCs and attendent support
    	issues.
    	My suggestion to all the thin-skinned is pay attention to the
    	theme.
    
    			the Greyhawk

    I think we need to remember that we're still trying to compete with
    top-tier vendors.  Media cost is even suffered by most bottom-tier
    vendors, so why should we think we're exempt?  And why do we think that
    customers buying from a company that calls itself top-tier will expect
    LESS than what they get on the bottom tier?
    
    I just installed a non-Digital PC at my customer's location.  It came
    with floppies for all software.  My customer would have gone through
    the roof if it hadn't.
    
    We keep saying we're the cream of this industry.  No one will believe
    it if our actions keep sinking to the bottom of the bottle.
    
    -- Russ

  Joe Kratz says the price would be higher.  I say (assuming you
  raise it by the $2.00 or so that the CD-ROM costs), that that's
  "Fine with Me".

  I'm another customer who would *RETURN* any system that I pur-
  chased that did not contain the necessary media to rebuild the
  system. And if I knew of that lack prior to the purchase, I'd
  immediately drop your system from further conmsideration.

  As several folks have said, if Packard-Bell can afford it, so can
  you, Digital.

  Stop making excuses!

                                   Atlant

    I just picked up a copy of the 1995 DECdirect catalog. Right on the 
    cover is an offer to anyone to get a copy of the catalog on CD for 
    free! Bet we give away more of these catalogs (and potentially CDs) 
    than we sell PC's through Sam's (though hopefully not!). The least we
    should do is provide a coupon which can be FAX'ed or mailed to us
    wherein we would send a CD poste haste to those who ask. Not all will.
    This is a marketing issue - not a technical one.
    
    -b

            We have a major problem here. In one week we have had two
    hard disk failures on SAM's systems. Of course the customers did not
    have distribution and of course they expected MCS to restore the disk
    to original working condition. The only way we have to do that is to go
    to SAM's find a system and make backups of them then go the customers and
    restore them.
            Please sombody in charge up there grab the bull by the horns
    and solve this issue. We in the field will even tell the customer we
    are not responable for that if that is the offical DIGITAL policy.
            Please provide us with the tools we need or make it offical
    that we are not responable for that service....
    
                            Stephen R Mccloud
    
    
    

Why doesn't MCS just make a set of the distribution floppies and carry
it with them?  (Or perhaps a tape backup of the disk, since these systems
come with a Colorado tape drive.)  This is so obvious, I have to wonder what
I've missed.

					Steve

    re .43
    
    Steve... they shouldn't HAVE to do that!
    
    I'm sure many have... just to save the customer... but the point is
    that for the sake of saving a few cents from one budget's bottom line
    Digital is screwing someone elses bottom line!
    
    tony

Of course - but the image of an MCS rep going to a Sam's Club each time to
make a copy is a bit ludicrous.

					Steve

    re .43  I am an mcs person and work on everything from pc's to 9000's.
    It is too easy just to say have the mcs person make a copy of the
    floppies and carry them around.  If I did that for everything I worked
    on I would need a pretty big van to carry all the software.  Leaving
    copies at the office until needed would also be nice but since our
    desks were taken away and I now have 1 shelf for all my stuff this 
    would not be practical either.
    

    Then you also get into issues of which backup should go on which
    system... Some come with just the basic DOS/Windows stuff, while others
    seem to come pretty loaded up with goodies. Then there's questions
    like, which video drivers, CD drivers, etc, does this particular model
    take... :-(
    
    MCS gets lots of calls from frustrated users (mostly total neophytes at
    home or at schools) that have unwittingly deleted a file, or have a
    corrupted driver, or whatever. They want Digital to make it better.
    I've even driven 300 miles to work on a PC at someones house WAY out in
    the boonies of east Texas (after support spent 3 days on the phone
    trying to solve the problem remotely) only to find that the user had
    somehow managed to move all of their DOS files (and the CD driver) to a
    directory named MS-DOS. The path still pointed to the DOS directory,
    and had no pointer to the MS-DOS directory. Duh, I wonder why the
    system can't load the CD driver C:\DOS\MSCDEX? :-(
    
    Right now, there's no official hard line policy to deal with such
    stupidities (at least that I'm aware of). I don't think that the
    customer would have been too pleased had I asked them for a check to
    cover the 6 hours of travel, plus 2 hours minimum onsite, at $138 per
    hour. Just to make their 6-week old, $1,500 computer function properly
    again...
    
    It would be interesting to see how other computer companies deal with
    this kind of stuff. For most folks at Digital, it's difficult to fathom
    how computer illiterate the unwashed masses really are. We're
    surrounded by these systems all day, every day. Jeez, I've got my own
    computer network running at my house, just so I can keep up with the
    technology that many of our business customers are using. I can do most
    of this stuff in my sleep! Then I have to go on calls where the user
    doesn't know what a config.sys or autoexec.bat file does. :-(
    
    Out on the front lines...
    
    Harry
    

    re: .47 and others, Having worked in support, I share your frustration.
    
    IMHO we can take some lessons from {insert name of successful company}
    
    1.  No PC shipped without 14.4 data/fax modem (cost $60/pc)
    2.  Each PC shipped with a "Survival Kit" including:
    	  Quick Question and Answer sheet ($0.25)
    	  Important phone numbers card (Support, Faxback, Sales) ($0.03)
    	  Boot diskette for MCS to take over PC control REMOTELY ($1.35)
    	  CD-ROM with Major Software, Drivers etc (need code to use)($?.??)
          Warranty & Support Contract information ($0.05)
    3.  MCS Customer Support should be able to remotely control any PC
    	  via dial-up.  This could solve 300 mile trips.
    4.  Keep the name and contact information of each PC sold and feed
    	  this back to MCS CSC for future planning
    5.  Outsource BBS to a company focused on BBS support and provide
    	  Digital organizations immediate download/update access. 
    	  Task this company with the responsibilty for verifying accuracy.
    
    Are these all the answers? No.  Can they add significant value? Yes.
                                                                 

I believe the Starions come with some sort of PC-remote control for Digital
to use in trouble shooting.  Sounds like we just need to get it on a bootable
floppy.

Bob

    
    RE: .48
    
    exellent points. I just have a little question about point number 4. How
    do we know who the end customer is? Remember, the PCBU sold a truck load of
    PC's to a reseller or was it maybe a distributor. Why would the
    reseller/distributor make the effort to keep us updated on whom the 
    end customer is, if they did how would it be done? 
    
    /Kjell

    re: .48 
    
    All starions ship with 14.4 modems and Triton CoSession remote hosting
    software and a bootable disk today. Atlanta is using them on 50 to 75
    customer calls per day. The CDROM idea is being worked for the next
    version of systems to be shipped this summer.
    
    Steve

Re servicing retail PCs:

My HP deskjet printer failed under warranty. HP's service scenario
is cost-effective, and absolutely "delight-the-customer":

Step 1) On the phone (phone line covers printers only, person
on the line knew all about HP printers): they asked me some detailed
detailed questions to make sure it wasn't something obvious that I
could fix by myself.

Step 2) They sent FEDEX to get the printer. All I had to do was prepare
the printer for shipment and meet the FEDEX guy.

Step 3) They repaired the printer and put it back onto FEDEX in less
than 48 hours. I had the printer back in 4 days.

I could have had a replacement printer from them overnight, if I
had been willing to spend an extra $60 for their "ship first, fix
later" service.

Now the beauty of this is that the printers go directly to a fully
equipped depot and they get repaired by techs that have LOTS of printer
experience. They have all the parts right there, and they have whole
spare printers, too, if yours is the "deskjet from hell".

The process is made 100% easy and predictable by spending $50 up front
for transport. (That $50 is less than a typical travel cost for
a single in-home service call!)

Lesson: Forget in-home service! Provide "postage-paid both ways"
warranty service and turn an unpredictable hassle into a straightforward
nothing-can-go-wrong process.

--RS

    I have to agree that a mail-in service is something to consider. 
    
    1.) The hard disk that I installed in my personal PC at home is covered
    by a mail-in, "shoot first" warranty from teh dealer (HDI); You call,
    they send a new disk, and a voucher for the return postage on the old
    disk.
    
    2.) My modem was damaged (physically!) by a nearby lightning strike
    last year.. So, I thought "Geez, lightning hit, they'll never fix it.."
    I call the manufacturer (Practical Peripherals); they said "No problem;
    lifetime warranty. Send it to us with a check for $12 to cover
    handling, and we'll either repair or replace it and have it back to you
    in 4 days or less". And they did. (it was a replace, the PC board in
    the original had a hole blown in it..)
    
    The first makes it much eaiser to recommend this vendor to friends
    buying disks for business computers; I *know* what service will
    involve. The second is just plain wonderful; I know of at least six
    modems that Practical has sold based on this one story from me..
    
    ...tom

  >  involve. The second is just plain wonderful; I know of at least six
  >  modems that Practical has sold based on this one story from me..
  >  
  >  ...tom
    
    Now, Tom, about all this Practical Peripherals stock that you've
    been buying lately... :-)

  Apple uses this same approach for Powerbooks.  Phone it in,
  they FedEx you approrpiate packing material if you need it,
  you send it in, and 48 hours later, it's back.  (By the way,
  I've never had to experience this firsthand, but know folks
  who have.)

  Global Village Communications (the big name in Mac-compatible
  modems) sold me a modem with a DOA "power brick".  Based on
  my over-the-phone description, they FedExed me a new power
  brick and a container in which to FedEx the old one back.
  This solved my problem overnight.  (And they even *BELIEVED
  ME* when I told 'em it was the power brick and had tested it
  with my very own VOM. Imagine that!)

                                   Atlant

With all this talk of how other vendors will replace an item first, then
have you ship back the old one, I have to point out that Digital used to
do this - 

I was a grad student, and we had just installed a PDP 11/34 (new at the
time) with RL01 disk drives. One of the disk packs was defective - it
wouldn't spin up. We got the new one before we shipped back the old one.
Field service was also great - a drive failed, and there were no
available boards. The FS engineer diagnosed it to a part (a 7400 series
TTL chip) and replaced the chip.

Having been on the customer side, I will say that this kind of service
leaves a great impression of the company. I also will point out that one
of the PC magazines repeatedly surveys its readers on reliability and
support of PCs. Consistently, companies which give excellent support and
service get a high percentage of customers who will buy from that vendor
again, even if their product reliability is lower than others. An example
of this is Gateway - great reputation, but their hardware reliability is
middle-tier. Their support, however, is excellent (except for a while
when their support staff was overwhelmed because of higher sales). In
general, they have satisfied customers. 

    Digital STILL does this!  I bought a color printer in January on the
    Holiday Sale for employees.  It arrived and we couldn't make it print. 
    Called the woman whom I ordered it from and she gave me the proper
    number to call for support (I guess that was a bit problematic as it
    was NOT obvious whom to call!) and they asked me a couple of questions
    - seemed to know immediately that it was defective; I was ready to play
    half an hour or more of "try this; try that" trying to fix it!  
    
    They sent us another one very quickly (1-2 days; I don't remember!) and
    had one of the overnight delivery services come pick up the broken one! 
    I do remember that we had the new one BEFORE the guy showed up to pick
    up the broken one!
    
    Left me feeling good about the transaction!
    
    Maryann