Conference 7.286::digital

    This proposal, well-intended that it is, actually ends up being
    another shift of Digital business expenses to the employee.  If
    an employee needs a piece of equipment to do Digital's business,
    it's Digital's responsibility to provide it.
    
    				Steve

    
    >>>If an employee needs a piece of equipment to do Digital's business,
    >>>it's Digital's responsibility to provide it.
    
    But in some cases, not mine, Digital does'nt provide what is needed.
    So this well-intended note is a stepping stone for trying to get a
    process that does not work - jump started. You have to start somewhere.
    
    -Rally round ME!
    -Mike Z.
    

What is the eventual goal?  If Digital finds it can "lease for free" 
equipment for 18 months or whatever with the employee picking up the tab,
why should it stop at PCs?  If such a program were implemented, where's
the incentive for the company to start carrying its own expenses?

					Steve

    I must admit that I find the idea of the Employee being put in a
    position that they have to contribute to, or out right purchase
    equipment/software reprehensible. However, that said I have already
    been in that position multiple times. I have purchased my own set of
    high speed modems (home and office) to support my work and customer
    problem testing around such issues as Remote Access. I have also paid
    for most if not all of the software on my system at work. Is it right?
    NO, I do not believe it is, but the reality of the Company is if you
    don't do items such as I mentioned above you'll never get the proper
    tools to do the job correctly, in an expedient fashion, or at all.
    
    Digital needs to decide if we are really a Desktop/PCI centric company.
    If we are, then it is critical that our people have the tools available
    to not only perform the basic job functions, but to LEARN what, to
    many, is an unknown environment. 
    
    Given that we MAKE the systems, and the dramtically decreased size of
    the Company it is inexcusable that every Employee that has a VALID need
    for a PC does not have one available. I do not mean four year old 320p
    laptops that can barely run the applications needed today, I don't mean
    an old Tandy box 316 with a monochrome monitor. I mean any of the
    Digital designed and built systems, i.e., LPv, LPx, MT, etc... Granted
    there must be some reason and checks put in the system to prevent
    abuse. However, the amount of time wasted by people trying to work with
    inadequate equipment, or worse trying to scrounge equipment from DIAL,
    from friends, from hook and crook is a total waste of energy,
    resources, time and MONEY! In my own group myself and another Support 
    Engineer have spent the better part of a week and a half trying to piece
    together the parts needed to build some systems STRONGLY RECOMMENDED to
    Management at the recent San Diego MCS get together, (NO I was not
    there and am not a Manager so I do not have intimate detail of the
    goings on there). Management was told the equipment was needed to use
    the recommended tools for managing their business, but NO provision was
    made to allow the procurement of said hardware and applications. As a
    result we spend hours a day pouring over DIAL and trying every contact
    we can find to try and build up the equipment needed. This is
    LUDICROUS. If MCS Management is told that this is the recommended and
    future method of doing business, them we better be ready to provide the
    equipment to do the job! The cost for the two of us, both as wage class 
    fours, to spend the amount time we have, AND be available to handle
    CLD's, customer and Engineer issues is unconscionable.
    
    
    Dave...

	  I didn't realize there was a question.  I've been bringing in my
     own hardware and software to do my work for Digital (software
     engineering) so long that I'd thought this was Digital policy.  You
     mean _Digital_ is supposed to supply the computer system, operating
     system, GUI, compilers, design tools, documentation tools, and so
     forth?  The ritual description in the project plan of tools needed to
     do the project is supposed to mean something else than the engineer
     with the most headroom on a Visa card gets an afternoon at Lechmere's?

	  Gad.  What a concept.

				     Brian

When does a piece of equipment become a "personal" tool?

  If I hire an orchestra to play at my wedding, is it my responsibility
  to provide the instruments for them to play?  Is it the orchestra's
  responsibility to provide instruments for each member?

I've noticed that many of Digital's most productive employees
(and consultants) use some of their own PC equipment to help
them in their work.

The proposal is intended as a voluntary, mutually enhancing way
to encourage this.  Digital isn't getting something for free.
It's paying half the cost of the equipment in exchange for
it being used at work during the first half of its nominal
useful life.  The employee owns the equipment and is gaining
control over what, when, and how it is purchased.

Part of "client/server" involves distributing computing,
information, and control to where it is needed.  Could this
be an extension of the client/server concept?

- Peter

    
    	Peter, I think it is a great idea. I have both the old 320p laptop
    and a 316 Tandy box. the Tandy box died three months ago and the
    Servicenter wants $800 to fix it, so it sits dead as a doornail. The
    laptop still works, but it is so slow the processor keeps falling
    asleep and forgets where it is.
    	Digital blessing me with $2K so I could get a loaded Celebris 590
    would be perfect. Be happy to keep it for 18 months at the office.
    Doing work on this VT100 is getting very old, believe me.
    	I'll pass your proposal on to CSD, if you don't mind. Thanks.
    
    		the Greyhawk

If both the employee and digital own the equipment and something happens to
it, then who is responsible for replacing or repairing it?

Who will pay for the new hard disk when the current one dies?

Who will pay for the monitor when it goes?

Who will pay for the whole system when it is destroyed (fire?) or stolen?

I don't believe digital would ever opt for this as it requires employees to
keep their personal property on digital sites.  This implies that digital is
responsible for the equipment while it is here.

Also, what do you do when the employee wants some extras, such as sound boards,
speakers, etc, that are not usually part of a work system?

					Keith

in re .8:

| If both the employee and digital own the equipment and something happens to
| it, then who is responsible for replacing or repairing it?
| 
| Who will pay for the new hard disk when the current one dies?
| 
| Who will pay for the monitor when it goes?
| 
| Who will pay for the whole system when it is destroyed (fire?) or stolen?

How about Digital paying for it as long as you use it in the office? The moment
you take it home for personal use, you repair it at your own expense. Digital
could offer you a low rate service package, but you can select anyone to do it.
If you are in the H.O.M.E. program then using it at home is as if it was in the
office.

A curious question in this proposal is to what extent Digital can mandate
how you are to spend the matching funds? Would you be required to buy a DEC
PC? Are you required to buy a certain minimum configuration? 

In general I think the proposal is good.

>Per

    I think the biggest question is who owns the memory.  With 40 dozen
    different software versions and floopy,tape,cd and hard disk storage
    devices, how do we share data etc.  
    
    Lets just upgrade our terminals, printers and networks to a decent
    standard, keep as much as possible online for all to share and Digital
    to own. Digital can and should pay for it all.  
    
    I do wish the company would re-up that employee purchase program they
    had a couple years ago.  

Here's how I think it might work:

1) The employee writes a proposal for what equipment he (or she) wants,
   why, and estimates the maximum it will cost.  Perhaps there
   could be a PC matching funds request form.

2) The proposal is reviewed by the employees supervisor and
   appropriate purchasing authorities.

3) If approved, the employee buys the equipment on his (or her)
   own and submits the purchase invoices along with the approved
   matching funds request.

4) Digital re-imburses the employee for half the invoiced amount.

The equipment belongs to the employee with the restrictions
previously described.  The employee is free to add any stuff
he (or she) wants to the system, he (or she) owns it.

Many employees already buy stuff on their own which they use for work.
How is this handled when it is used for work on Digital premises?

The opportunity to get matching funds makes this more attractive.
It encourages individual initiative and commitment.

- Peter

    
    	How about this...
    
    	Digital sells you any DEC machine you want, AT INTERNAL COST.
    
    	You agree to use for business purposes and not resell it for 2 yrs.
    
    	If it breaks during this period DEC fixes it at home or at work.
    		(if its so unreliable it cant last 2 years?)
    
    	The company breaks even on $ and benifits due to employee
    self-training, and we look damn good with that stuff as spokesmen/women
    for the company.  
    
    	ANY DEC machine you want, ANY place you want to use it.
    	2 machine max... starting tomorrow.
    
    	I got into Jim Nortz(sp) face about this 4 years ago and he
    	got defensive about what proper cost was.  I said COST, internal.
    
    	Microsoft, Dell, and other companies do their employees well!
    
    Mark

I think it would be wonderful for Digital to offer PCs to employees
at or near internal cost.  Actually, our margins in the PC business
are almost non-existant, so by some definitions we're already doing this.

But I wouldn't want to limit employees to just considering Digital PCs.
The point is to help motivated employees get the tools they want to do
their work.  If Digital can offer the best tool with the best price and
availability, people will choose it.  If not, we should welcome the
opportunity to learn from diversity.

Digital doesn't sell Macs for example, yet that's the tool some
people want and need.  To do client/server successfully requires
supporting multivendor environments.

Also, personal productivity tools are not just hardware,
they include software as well.

- Peter

Perhaps the following scheme would be simpler to administer:

DEC buys its own equipment at internal cost, as it does now, and deploys it
according to the best way to do the job, as it does now.

DEC depreciates the equipment at 40% in year 1 and 30% in year 2, as I think
it does now.

DEC sells the equipment, at 30% of original internal cost to an employee that
wants to buy it.  The employee that currently has control of the equipment at
work gets first refusal, then any employee gets a chance at it.

A couple of wrinkles:

Some equipment stuck in inventory and made obsolescent by the market, could be
withdrawn from inventory at a loss, rather than at cost, and 30% of that
reduction would appear as a price cut to the employees after two years.
(figuring who bites that loss is a political problem)


An employee who made a firm commitment to buy the stuff after two years
(provided the employee wasn't TFSO'd in the interim) could affect management's
decision to deploy the equipment with the employee to begin with.

I realize this isn't quite what was originally proposed, but it might deal
better with some of the questions about ownership while the equipment is
at a DEC site.

Regards,
    Dave

To put a chill on the idea:

I assiduously avoid reading the postings here about car plans A and B,
and this idea smacks of some aspects of that...

But to warm to the idea again:

There is much merit.
I would strengthen the ownership conditions and responsibilities.
For example, the company should subsidize the purchase, as Peter
suggests, but what this subsidy should actually buy is an option
to lease the equipment back from the employee for a given term.
The lease fee paid by the company would be less than a standard
commercial rental fee.  This focuses the ownership issue on the 
employee - he or she owns the equipment, but the option guarantees
the company's right to have the equipment used for its purposes
(but probably only by the leasing employee or under his consent).
This means that if something breaks, it is the owner's (the employee's)
responsibility to get it fixed.  If new components (either for repair [replace
broken disk] or enhancement [additional bigger disk]) are needed,
they are purchased, with subsidy, under the same lease-back conditions.

The most straightforward simplifcation of this deal is that the company
could be leasing resources from its employees RIGHT NOW, at their
mutual discretion.
If you choose to buy equipment that you think can help you do your job,
do so, and make a deal with your manager to lease it from you under the
conditions we are considering here (your own use, your ownership, etc.).
To the objection that that just burdens the employee if he can't
get management to agree to his terms, I say that's where we are now,
only now there is NO program in place to accommodate employees who feel 
pressured into laying out their own bucks to make themselves more productive.

I am also sympathetic to Steve Lionel's concerns, and feel that they
represent important philosophical and ethical (and economic) points
about the differences between employees and consultant/contractors.
Those concerns need to be a part of this discussion.
(Yes, Peter, there is a difference between hiring a free-lance orchestra 
for a wedding and hiring a staff orchestra that is available to people 
who rent the wedding hall.)

- tom]

	You guys are creating yet another process that DEC can't
	afford right now.

	The process that needs to get fixed is the budget process. Then
	maybe we can get equipment on time rather than waiting 6 months
	into the new year for that years budget to be approved.

						mike

    
    
    It is my understanding that in the UK there is a company commonly 
    known as HP that gives its employees a 65% discount on equipment purchases
    for personnal use. I'll take this in preference to anything else that
    is currently on offer or is being discussed here.
    
     Ian

    
    
    Re -.1
    
    That may be true in the UK, but in the US, HP employee discounts
    are on the same order as Digital's.
    
    Consider PC's for example - if cost is the most important factor,
    an HP or Digital PC with the employee discount has not been
    competitive when comparing in the open market. 
    
    I have heard that this may be changing, at least at Digital with
    the introduction of Celebris line etc.
    
    Overall, having looked at HP employee purchase sheets and applying
    the discount shows similar results as doing the same at Digital...
    
    
    Bob
    

    re: .12
    
    Your steps for how an employee would get approval to buy the equipment
    he or she wants, looks similar to the existing process which you are
    trying to work around instead of fixing:  
    
            1) Employee writes a proposal (justification)
    
            2) The proposal is reviewed by the employee's supervisor and 
               appropriate purchasing authorities (the bottleneck that is 
               already keeping us from getting getting the hardware and
               software we need to do our job)
    
            3) If approved...  (And what if it is not approved?  We go
               right back to step 1)
    
    
    What if the hardware and software that I need to successfully do my job
    exceeds the amount of money that I can personally afford to spend?  Do
    I tell the kids that they can forget about getting braces because I need 
    the money to help pay for the job that Digital is paying me to do?
    
    DH
    
    
    P.S.  Orchestras don't make musical instruments, they make music
    
      

Following is the text of a column written by John Dvorak that appeared in
DEC Professional some time ago (a couple of years, maybe?).  While it is
easy to find fault with a lot of things he writes, he does have some
interesting ideas sometimes.  I think I agree with him on this one, though,
that information workers should own their own equipment.
================================================================================
"Taking Your Computers With You"
John C Dvorak
DEC Professional (posted here without permission)

People call it the installed base, and they worship it.  In fact, the
installed base is the greatest impediment to progress we have before us.
The installed base makes the computer industry write code for old machines
and design machines for old code.  It's a joke.

I was visiting the Canadian Broadcasting offices in Toronto to meet some of
the radio personalities there.  While chatting with one of the writers for the
show "As It Happens," I noticed his arcane word processor.  He spotted the
quizzical look on my face as he went through an incredible rigmarole to do the
simplest chores.  "I see you're looking at the word processor," he said.
"It was written in-house by the MIS department and runs on a mini-computer.
It really stinks.  It's so bad that we're going to toss it out pretty soon and 
use an off-the-shelf package."

In fact, most old code is like this.  Programs used in corporations, written
in-house by coders of no particular talent, plague American business.  The
future of American enterprise is held back by this.

Now, I don't want to insult all the COBOL, RPG-II, 370 assembler and HP BASIC
coders out there who have kludged together a payroll package or a sort
program or who knows what software.  But this notion of in-house, built-from-
scratch software has come and gone.  At least, the impetus is gone.

No longer does a corporation have to spend $15,000 and up for a crummy line
editor that runs on the old VAX.  No longer do we have to kowtow to make buying
decisions tha rotate around expensive, and mostly mediocre, canned applications.
Software can be had inexpensively.  The newest inexpensive software is far
superior to the expensive small-market stuff sold a decade or two ago.  It's
also better maintained.  The worst maintained software is the in-house-developed
stuff for which the coder never documented the program and then took a job 
elsewhere.

This kind of junk is the fearsome installed base that everyone is afraid to
mess with.  It might be running on IBM mainframes or VAXs or HP 3000s.  A lot
of it is running on 486s.

About now, some IS director is thinking.  "Talk is cheap.  This guy has never
had to upgrade the hardware or software at 25,000 workstations."

The solution is to put the need to upgrade on the user.  It's the user who
should buy and upgrade his or her computer.  Users should be hired on the basis
of their skills and their equipment.

This seems kind of harsh to the majority of tightwads out there, but a computer
system should be viewed as similar to a car.  People will spend $20,000 on a
car but are reluctant to spend more than $1,500 on a machine on which they
earn a livelihood.

The fact is, today's information workers should own their equipment and move
it from job to job.  It should be the IS department's job to make sure these
alien systems hook to the network and don't contaminate it.  While a modern
corporation in this environment may require a seriously larger IS department,
the money saved will more than fund it.  This policy will eliminate the
learning curve for users who have to change computers and software when they
change companies.  It will also force computer users to be more than mere
drones.  They would have to know how to use and maintain their equipment just
as they know how to use and maintain a car.

The only serious argument against this approach might come from a user who
says, "If I'm a salesperson required to use a car, the company provides the
car.  Therefore, the company should provide the computer."

I'd answer that not all companies do this; many just pay you for the use of
your own car by giving you a per-mile allowance.  So, the information company
may want to pay employees a CPU fee or some such thing.

Computers are tools.  Few master mechanics in, say, factories use
company-provided tools.  They have their own specialized set of tools, which
are kept in a locked cabinet.  Each is marked with the owner's name and
guarded like Fort Knox.  Go to your auto mechanic,  and you'll see the same
thing.  This is the model for the information worker of the future.  It is
the employees' responsibility to make themselves competitive and modern.
They're doing the work.  They should use their own tools to do the job.
Just as the master mechanic does not work on the assembly line, neither does
the modern office worker.

The assembly-line equivalent in the office is sitting at a dumb terminal
hooked to an AS/400 and popping in invoice numbers from a pile of forms.
This is the only area of corporate activity where old code is still viable.
It's funny how this lowest common denominator is often the model for the rest
of the company.  The most important employees end up working with a crummy
company-provided computer using some software package chosen by those in the
IS department years ago -- or, worse, coded by them.  This worker is treated
like the order-entry person.

It's time this model evolved.  It's time users took their computers with them.

    
    	-1
    
    	My sentiments exactly. Make it a real simple process. $2k for an
    employee who needs a PC. You build your own from DEC Part #s. You own
    it. You use it where-ever it is necessary. You can do Laptop, Desktop,
    Server, Workstation - your call. Just like an auto mechanic, they all
    own their own tools, not the garage, not the dealership. The worker.
    	One page form. One point of contact. Digital sells it to you with
    three year on-site warranty. It is a no-brainer. Really. Think about
    it.
    
    		the Greyhawk

    re: .22
    >> $2k for an employee who needs a PC.
    
    
    I'll be spending $3K in the next couple of weeks.  All of the money
    will go to a competitor because I can buy twice as much computer
    at THEIR RETAIL price than I can buy at the Digital EPP price.
    
    
    Dave

    If I have to buy my own 'tools', as my brother, the mechanic does, then
    I reserve the right to 'moonlight' or 'freelance' using those tools,
    as he does.  I've asked him, and NONE of the the various shops he's
    worked for (Subaru, Alfa-Romeo, Cadillac, GMC...) has as stringent an 
    'employee agreement' as that found at digital.  Really, if I'm expected
    to foot the bill for pens, pencils, paperclips, computers, etc... then 
    its time to look elsewhere.... Ds.

It's hard to create world-class graphics when you are using
a machine that is several generations out of date, and
your friend at another company down the street has the latest
machine which is 100 times faster. Real hard. And very
few people understand the extra challenge involved:
less room for errors, no time for experimentation,
and the appearance of low productivity unless 160 hour
work weeks become the norm. 

I like the idea of .0 too, because it recognizes the reality which 
is lots of people (like myself) end up buying what they need
out of their own pocket. No tax benefit either.
In my case, since I interchange files with a lot of vendors like 
Quantic who use Macs, I need a Mac which can run today's software.

We did sell Macs for awhile, I don't know if we still do.
But I'm sure little discounting room was available on them.

   erik

    Re: .23
    
    Not anymore.  I'm spending $3K with Digital - I can't come close
    to this much computer from any other reputable company for the
    same money.  Without the EPP discount, Digital's maybe about
    5-10% higher than Dell, etc.
    
    					Steve

re -1:

> EPP discount

But remember that this discount is only for a (priviledged) part of this
company. No employee discounts here in France, apart from the once a year
we_cannot_get_rid_of_it_so_lets_dump_it_on_the_employees christmas offer.

Timo

 

    
    ref : .26
    
       What are you going to use your system for????
    
    ref  : .23
    
       What are you going to use your system for ?????
    
    
    bc
    

    Re: .28
    
    Whatever I can think of that seems useful (at home). 
    
    					Steve

>                     <<< Note 3417.20 by KURIUS::HOCH_D >>>
> ...
>    P.S.  Orchestras don't make musical instruments, they make music

Exactly, and this discussion would look a lot different if we weren't
talking about computers or if we weren't (nominally) a computer company.
Let's separate the need for tools from the fact that we make some 
of those tools.

We need information handling tools to do our work, just as the machinist,
car mechanic, and radio news readers mentioned above need machine tools,
car repair tools, and word processors (respectively) to do their work.
Is there justification for knowledge workers to own their tools
in a corporate environment, the same way the aforementioned artisans
and craftsmen own theirs?
Yes, there is, but it has to be understood that that is part of their job, and
it has to be recognized as part of the cost of the job and part of the
compensation package for the job.

Most of us brought our college educations into our jobs here, prepaid 
(by us as individuals or by others on our behalf).
We expected to recoup this enormous expense by collecting a salary
greater than we could have expected without the purchased knowledge.
That knowledge (which could be acquired by means other than college,
but I'm trying to avoid that rathole) was prerequisite to the prospective job.
New knowledge a tool is co-requisite to continuing to perform the job.
We've had lots of discussions here about whether companies should fund
all, some, or none of this training.
Hardware and software tools can be considered the same way - buy your own
and EXPECT IT TO BE WORKED INTO COMPENSATION, or have the company provide
them under their terms and controls.

- tom]

	  Well, I think this concept, if widely implemented, would
     certainly finally put a particular economic theory to rest.

	  "The tools of production belong to the workers!"

	  "They certainly do.  Would you like to see the receipts?"

				     Brian

Re - somewhere back there

Digital will let you moonlight - you just can't use company equipment/resources,
can't be in competition and need to get approval from the office of ethics.
Sometimes this approval can be pretty quick, sometimes, as in my case, it
can take a while for the office to examine all the aspects.

Now, whether or not this type of arrangement (2kpc) would let me use the
equipment to moonlight, would be a major factor in whether I would be
interested in possibly participating.

fwiw,
--Scott

>     <<< Note 3417.24 by ODIXIE::SILVERS "dig-it-all, we rent backhoes." >>>
>                               -< Moonlighting? >-
>
>    If I have to buy my own 'tools', as my brother, the mechanic does, then
>    I reserve the right to 'moonlight' or 'freelance' using those tools,
>    as he does.  

You may own the tools, but you can be (and probably are) contractually
prevented from competing with your employer in his own field.

Just because Drew Bledsoe owns his own shoulder pads doesn't mean he can
fill in for the New York Jets on an off-weekend.

- tom]

>                                                            - buy your own
> and EXPECT IT TO BE WORKED INTO COMPENSATION, or have the company provide
> them under their terms and controls.

This works for some employees.  Three years ago, I gave myself a budget
of $4500 to buy computer equipment for work.  I think I've gotten my
investment back in salary and benefits, so I've given myself a similar
budget this year.

But this isn't realistic for everyone.  I'd like to think we could
make this sort of opportunity (reward for initiative) available to
more employees.  The proposal in .0 won't solve the whole problem
and won't even be attractive to many.  But if it's mutually
beneficial for Digital and some of it's employees without
hurting others, why not?

What's holding us back from embracing PCs as personal productivity tools?

------------
RE:                  <<< Note 3417.20 by KURIUS::HOCH_D >>>
                       -< I See The Same Old Bottleneck >-

I'm not surprised.  Where I work however, it's a little different.
Even when we get the approvals, it usually takes weeks or months
to actually get the equipment.

I think the proposal offers two benefits:

1) Since the employee is committing some of his or her own resources,
   the request is for less money and has some personal integrity built-in.
   This could shift the balance for getting some requests approved.

2) Once the request is approved, the employee is free to get the
   equipment by the most efficient means available to them.
   I routinely order software for my own system with one day turn-around.
   If I need it tomorrow, I can have it tomorrow.
   We're in a time competitive business.

- Peter

    I agree with Greyhawk; I think this is a very good idea and should be
    presented to management!  
    
    I'd be writing a proposal if it were available today!  
    
    Have Greyhawk and the .0 noter agreed that it should be presented to
    CSD?  Does the basenoter object if it goes up the DC (or whoever we are
    today?) chain as well?
    
    Best Regards,
    Maryann (who is normally a reader!)
    

What if you need more than a PC? 
$2K doesn't go far enough for an Alpha NT system, never mind a Unix or VMS
system.

Besides, after several years of benefit cuts, I don't intend to pay for
much equipment. (I do, however, supply my own pens, and I'll probably never
be reimbursed for the Novell book I bought - but then, I get to keep this stuff
if I leave.)

I don't mean to say that this is an entirely bad idea; I bought a PC 2 years ago
(the 2-year interest-free EPP loan made it worthwhile) and I've learned Windows
programming and C++, both of which has been useful to my job. However, some work
here requires more than a $2k PC.

I have no objections to anyone sharing the idea.  I've started discussions
with my own managment chain.

All help and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

- Peter

    RE: .26
    
> Not anymore.  I'm spending $3K with Digital - I can't come close
> to this much computer from any other reputable company for the
> same money. 


I guess we look in different places.  I can get the following configuration
from several reputable sources (open a Computer Shopper) for about $2900:

	Pentium 60 PCI bus
	256KB cache
	8MB RAM
	540MB hard drive
	Diamond Stealth 64 2MB VRAM
	17" monitor .26 dpi, 76Hz @ 1024x768
	14.4 fax/modem
	250MB tape backup
	2x CDROM
	16-bit sound card w/speakers
	tower case, mouse, kybd, etc.
	multi-year warranty

I just got off the phone with EPP five minutes ago:  a similarly
configured system will cost me about $4500 (including tax).
Gee, what a deal!

I don't care whether my TV says GE or Magnavox or Sony.  Similarly, I
don't care whether my PC says Digital or Insight or MidWest Micro.  And
I'm not about to pay twice as much for the same (differences are
negligible in my opinion) thing just to get a name tag.


Dave

    Yes, I am barred from competing with DEC by the employee agreement.
    
    No, not if I use DEC-owned tools, just if I use my brain, and since DEC
    claims to be 'in' all aspect of the computing business, I cannot use 
    any computers that I purchase to 'moonlight'.  Therefore, I will not 
    purchase any computers to do work for DEC, DEC can provide them.
    
    Note the use of DEC not digital.

Re .40

>    No, not if I use DEC-owned tools, just if I use my brain, and since DEC
>    claims to be 'in' all aspect of the computing business, I cannot use 
>    any computers that I purchase to 'moonlight'.

This is simply not true.  I myself am working on a software project
which the Office of Ethics has given formal approval to, as not being a
conflict of interest.  I know a number of other people who have done the same
thing, both hardware and software.  Digital does not claim to be in all
aspects of the computer business, and those aspects we do claim to be
in seem to be shrinking every day.

--Scott

Re: .38

Who makes this system you describe?  Is it someone who buys motherboards
from one place, cases from another, slaps them together and sells them?

Your insistence on a mini-tower case and P60 means you were forced to the
DECpc XL, which is certainly on the high side of price.  I came up with an
EPP price of $4004 for an identically configured system based on the XL.

But we've got something new, with a much better pricing structure - the
Celebris line.  Let's do some figuring.

I can't come up with a Celebris configuration exactly like the one you
describe (assuming we go for a desktop case), as the P-60 model can't hold
both a CD-ROM drive and an internal tape backup.  If you didn't mind an 
external tape drive, I get an EPP price of $3345.  Part of the high price
is due to the 17" monitor (made by Sony) and the rather expensive Colorado
external backup.

But let's look at reasonable competition - Dell.  Dell is advertising a
P60 system for $1999 with a 15" monitor.  EPP price for a similarly-configured
Celebris 560 is $2118.  Dell has a P90 system for $2599; a similarly-configured
Celebris 590FP is $2837, though for $50 more you can get a sound board
and speakers.  The Celebris series is Energy Star compliant - Dell doesn't
say if its systems are.  The Celebris is "Plug and Play" compatible, not
Dell.  The Celebris allows you to add drives from the front - Dell doesn't.
The Celebris 590FP has a PCMCIA bay - Dell doesn't.

I think we're on the right track - at last.

					Steve

Re .41:


> I myself am working on a software project
> which the Office of Ethics has given formal approval to, as not being a
> conflict of interest.

How did you go about getting this permission? I've been working on some software
that should not be a conflict of interest (PC games and educational software)
and I'd like to be free to market this. I understand that this usually includes
allowing Digital internal use of the software; that would be no problem.

(Now if I just had time to port my gravity simulator to the Microsoft compiler,
it would make a good Alpha demo.)

Re .43

Well, to continue the digression...

>How did you go about getting this permission?

I started with my immediate supervisor/manager and made them aware of
what I wanted to do.  They then checked, and pointed me to

	John Buckley
	Ethics Program Office
	Ethics and Business Practices
	DTN 223-5889
	ASABET::JBUCKLEY

I sent email to John, and outlined what I wanted to do.  He then followed
up with me, and we disucssed it further so that he had a good understanding
of what exactly the project was.

The major delay in my getting approval was that things are really changing
in the PC space within this company, and John needed to do some research
into what was going on within that space.

It probably helped that I had the backing/support of my immediate boss,
since the initial reaction was that what I wanted to do might be a conflict of
interest; I suspect that this may have been due to all of the unknowns around
our PC software futures.

>I understand that this usually includes allowing Digital internal use of the
>software

I can't speak to this except to say that I was never made aware of any
such requirement when I was told what I wanted to do would not be a conflict
of interest.

Your milage may vary for your project.  I think John wanted to develop some
actual criteria by which to evaluate these requests, I don't know if that
has been done yet, or if they are still being handled on an exception
basis.

Frankly, I can see potential advantage for the company out of this; besides
keeping the IC's happy, i'm expanding my skill set (something which in
theory would make me a more valuable employee, right?) and the company
isn't footing the bill.  We could probably come up with other reasons ('course
the company may be able to come up with as many reasons to say "no").

--Scott

I doubt that permission to "moonlight" would waive the companies claim to 
intellectual property rights unless you got an explicit written statement to 
that effect.

Dave.

    The recently-departed Anker Berg-Sonne had a lot of grief from the
    Company over this, and the last mail I had from him before he left was
    quite bitter about it. If I were going to do something like this, I'd
    want "permission" in writing.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    Try doing moonlighting in Digital Consulting (or whatever we are this
    quarter).  
    
    charlie

Re last few....  In my original request, I said:

"...to receive corporate permission for using my own time and resources to
develop & market a privately owned software product."

The response from the Office of Ethics was (paraphrased, since i'm not
sure I can post the actual text extract of the message):

This is not a conflict of interest with Digital's business, nor your work.
You may pursue this activity.


To me, this seems to be pretty clear (in fact, the memo from the OoE
specifically refers back to my original request that I sent).  I would have
thought that this would be sufficient.  The issue of who is to own what
was stated in my original request.  Of course you can slice words all different
ways, but I certainly didn't get the impression that the OoE was out
to screw me later (quite the opposite in fact; it would have been very easy to
simply say "no", yet John took the time to find out more and to research
this so that he felt comfortable with saying "yes").

--Scott

    Note that while "you may pursue this activity", I don't believe you
    have been relieved of the obligation to allow the company to use your
    work later on (unless there's more to your written agreement from the
    OoE).
    If I remember correctly, the (US, at least) employment contract you
    signed when you joined gave the company non-exclusive royalty-free
    rights to anything you develop outside the company time but while you
    are employed by the company. While in most cases I suspect the company
    may have no current interest in what you develop, if you were to (say)
    develop the next 1-2-3, and the company decides to move into that
    business, then you will find yourself in an interesting position.
    
    Of course, you may not be interested in the commercial opportunities
    for what you are writing.....
    
    colin

	Always remember :  get it in writing and 




	            C	  Y         Y	            A
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	       C    	    Y     Y	          A   A
	     C     	     Y   Y	         A     A
	   C      	      Y Y	        A       A
	 C		       Y	       AAAAAAAAAAA
	C		       Y	      A		  A
	 C		       Y	     A		   A
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	     C		       Y	   A		     A
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	 	   C	       Y	A		        A

    	I am aware that most noters here are U.S. based, but for others you
    should check your local country law and legal history. The type of
    restrictive clause they have in U.S. employment contracts has been held
    by U.K. courts to be unfair, meaning that the court will not enforce
    it. I could add more details, but they would probably be out of date.

re: .51

>    	I am aware that most noters here are U.S. based, but for others you
>    should check your local country law and legal history. The type of
>    restrictive clause they have in U.S. employment contracts has been held
>    by U.K. courts to be unfair, meaning that the court will not enforce
>    it. I could add more details, but they would probably be out of date.

Actually, many if not most of the employment contracts in the US don't hold
up in court either.

-Hal

    I was on vacation so I missed the large discussion of this topic,
    but to make sure I understand what's going on...
    
    HYPOTHETICALLY I want a system that costs $3000.
    
    The proposal is that I would do some paperwork, and if someone in the
    Digital bureaucracy decided this was "appropriate" I would buy the
    system and Digital would reimburse half the cost of those portions of
    the system deemed to be "business related" - I presume the sound card,
    speakers, etc would not fall into this category.  How about if Digital
    decides an RRD42 is satisfactory and I want a 4X-speed CDROM?
    
    <now don't get in an uproar - I SWEAR it isn't meant as a flame>
    
    Now I've invested $1500 in a box on which I can "do business" which I
    do at a Digital facility or customer site.  SO MY BOX SITS IN THE
    OFFICE?  Where it isn't even available to me when I want it on my own
    time (unless, of course, I go to where the box is or pack it up every
    time and drag it around)?  And, it sits there for 18-24 months, until
    it becomes obsolete and several generations old, after which I become
    the "owner"?
    
    I absolutely agree with whoever made the statement that if we're to be
    thought of as nothing more than mechanics - having to provide our own
    hardware and software to do the job - then the compensation better
    reflect the $n-thousand/year investment people are having to invest in
    their own equipment.  I suspect that for the VAST majority of us, the
    salary was based on having the company provide ALL the tools necessary
    to do the job - hardware, software, office, training, etc.  
    
    I think its really kind of you folks to buy what Digital won't provide
    you to do their business, but if you do this, WHY SHOULD THE COMPANY
    EVER CHANGE SO IT DOES START PROVIDING THE NECESSARY TOOLS?
    
    Lastly, the statement "Its only voluntary, nobody would HAVE to
    participate"...
    
    Don't I remember statements like this being made about the HOME program
    originally - seems to me there are LOTS of people being given "having
    to participate" in this one.  I'm certain others can think of examples
    that started out "voluntary" and were warped in certain cases (doesn't
    everything ALWAYS seem to be up to "local management discretion") to be
    mandatory?
    
    <like I said, I'm not flaming anyone - JUST DOESN'T make sense to me>

 Re: .53;

>    Now I've invested $1500 in a box on which I can "do business" which I
>    do at a Digital facility or customer site.  SO MY BOX SITS IN THE
>    OFFICE?  Where it isn't even available to me when I want it on my own
>    time ...


Since you went on to mention the H.O.M.E. program, I'm surprised that
you didn't pick up on this one.  You seem to be making the somewhat dubious
assumption that your office won't be just down the hall from, say, your 
bedroom and around the corner from the kitchen...  Nice and handy for
using your new computer for personal things after you finish your Digital 
work.  (say about midnight or so, after all, there's no commute anymore!)

    Cross this with 3429, and the possibilities for problems and ill-will
    are prohibitively large for some of us.
    
    Dick

>Since you went on to mention the H.O.M.E. program, I'm surprised that
>you didn't pick up on this one.  You seem to be making the somewhat dubious
>assumption that your office won't be just down the hall from, say, your 
>bedroom and around the corner from the kitchen...  Nice and handy for
>using your new computer for personal things after you finish your Digital 
>work.  (say about midnight or so, after all, there's no commute anymore!)

    We (and I specifically) have already been told "DC WILL NOT BE GOING ON
    THE HOME PROGRAM!"  In my case, I'd be happy to finish the current
    project from home. I've already talked to a couple people about what
    would be needed to be AS PRODUCTIVE AS IN THE OFFICE - it looks like a
    couple grand for hardware and software NOT counting a decent PC (I laid
    it out in the IBMPC-94 notesfile and involves having multiple access
    into multiple VAXen, having high-speed local access to remote disks
    across the dial-up, being able to copy, print, and edit from DECwrite
    on the PC to files on the remote VAXen, etc).  Yes, it'll work with
    less, but the keyword here was "TO BE AS PRODUCTIVE AS IN THE OFFICE". 
    BTW:  When I mentioned to my U.M. what would be needed/desirable (a
    relatively few bucks compared to the cost of the office) to have the
    customer see no lessening of productivity he indicated "it sounds like
    its not APPROPRIATE for you to do this work from home..."
    
    My VERY limited understanding of the HOME program is that the current
    implementation may be adequate for someone who's connection to the
    office it to occasionally read mail and/or copy a small document or
    such, but for ACTUALLY doing customer development long-term it may
    require some additional bits...  Is there anyone from DC out there
    actually DOING full-time, long-term, customer development on VMS in an
    environment as described above using ONLY the basic hardware and
    software included in the HOME program?
    
    I didn't want to turn this into a HOME rathole but who's going to pay
    for the extra power to run all this business equipment, the extra
    heating in the winter since the house can't be allowed to cool down
    because someone is there instead of at the office, the extra cooling in
    the summer for the same reason, and the cost of losing some percentage
    of livable space in the house?  I suspect I know the answer...

>Is there anyone from DC out there
>    actually DOING full-time, long-term, customer development on VMS in an
>    environment as described above using ONLY the basic hardware and
>    software included in the HOME program?

Not from DC, but am doing full-time, long-term development on OpenVMS and
OSF/1 - hardware was my VAXstation 3100 from work; OSF/1 is done remotely via
9600 baud dial-up DECnet link (I live in the country, higher speed data paths
are many $$$'s).  Most interactive work (SET HOST, NOTES, etc) I cannot notice
speed difference; large file transfers (and I do them), take some time.

>    I didn't want to turn this into a HOME rathole but who's going to pay
>    for the extra power to run all this business equipment

I pick up tab for power - hasn't been significant since I have a monthly
minimum anyway.  Savings in gas and other areas more than make up for
difference.

>the extra
>    heating in the winter since the house can't be allowed to cool down
>    because someone is there instead of at the office

Initial data indicates that VAXstations make very good room heaters as well
as providing compute power.  I expect to close bedroom door and be plenty
warm.

Your milage may vary.

end rathole.
--Scott

>Not from DC, but am doing full-time, long-term development on OpenVMS and
>OSF/1 - hardware was my VAXstation 3100 from work; OSF/1 is done remotely via
>9600 baud dial-up DECnet link (I live in the country, higher speed data paths
>are many $$$'s).  Most interactive work (SET HOST, NOTES, etc) I cannot notice
>speed difference; large file transfers (and I do them), take some time.

    Are you able to put up multiple DECterms into different VAXes on the
    other end from the single dial-up?  How about remotely accessing data
    on the disks of the remote VAXes from DECwrite for example (start
    DECwrite on the 3100 at home and just point it at the .DOC file on the
    remote VAX as though you were local)?  
    
    BTW:  From a conversation with one of our network guys, there are 56KB
    modems that work on dial-up lines, since the standard phone line is
    capable of 64KB.  I don't know about other places.  Supposedly these
    run around $800 each, so its a very inexpensive implementation -
    certainly compared to the cost of maintaining a cubicle...
    
>>    I didn't want to turn this into a HOME rathole but who's going to pay
>>    for the extra power to run all this business equipment
>
>I pick up tab for power - hasn't been significant since I have a monthly
>minimum anyway.  Savings in gas and other areas more than make up for
>difference.

    I'm not sure how far your drive is, but I suspect I can't run what I'm
    using in the office - a 3100 with 2-19" monitors, an office PC, LN03 or
    other adequate printing device, etc, as cheap as I can make the drive
    to the office...
    
>>the extra
>>    heating in the winter since the house can't be allowed to cool down
>>    because someone is there instead of at the office
>
>Initial data indicates that VAXstations make very good room heaters as well
>as providing compute power.  I expect to close bedroom door and be plenty
>warm.

    I've heard this.  Anybody know what the monthly cost is to run an
    1800-2300 watt heater (I've heard the power consumption for a 3100 with
    extra disks, tape drives, and monitors, runs in this range)
    24-hours/day every day?  
    
    The same VAXstation that heats so well, also heats in the summer when
    the air conditioning is on...
    
    Again, I'm not against the program, I'd like to be able to do this
    project from home.  I simply think its unreasonable to be saddled with
    an extra $however-much/month out of my pocket (I've heard numbers from
    $30-$100 per month), over and above the savings in not driving to the
    office (which are minimal since you STILL have to have the car, pay the
    insurance, and everything else.  All you save is whatever gas you don't
    use), so Digital can save millions by getting rid of workplaces.  And
    this doesn't even examine the loss of livable space where the PCs,
    VAXstation, monitors, printer and everything else now reside...

First off, dial-up Decnet IS Decnet.
Anything you can do by setting host/copying/etc. to the machine
in the next cube via ethernet/Decnet, you can do over dial-up
Decnet.  This includes as many Decterms as you want.  

The ONLY restriction is bandwidth.  Running X over a phone line
is going to be painfully slow, but running a local decterm
and setting host over Dial-up decnet should be just fine.

Secondly, are you sure you NEED to have all that hardware
at your fingertips, or could you access it remotely?

What if your PC could do the equivalent of dial-up decnet, with as many
terminal windows as you need, file-copies, etc.  That drops your local
requirements to one PC and one printer, which only needs to be powered on
when you've got something to print.  Let Digital pay for the power to 
run the VAXstation!

The above might be accomplished with Pathworks (not sure), and could certainly
be accomplished via TCP/IP using SLIP or PPP into a DECserver 700/900.

>First off, dial-up Decnet IS Decnet.
>Anything you can do by setting host/copying/etc. to the machine
>in the next cube via ethernet/Decnet, you can do over dial-up
>Decnet.  This includes as many Decterms as you want.  
>
>The ONLY restriction is bandwidth.  Running X over a phone line
>is going to be painfully slow, but running a local decterm
>and setting host over Dial-up decnet should be just fine.

    Ah, I thought this might be the old async DECnet.  I've not used it in
    a while, but the last time I did, performance was less than optimal. 
    From talking to the network people here, it hasn't improved any.  Even
    not running X I've been told that 9600 is inadequate to support
    multiple DECterm windows.  True?  False?  How many DECterms do you
    usually run onto how many different VAXen?
    
>Secondly, are you sure you NEED to have all that hardware
>at your fingertips, or could you access it remotely?
>
>What if your PC could do the equivalent of dial-up decnet, with as many
>terminal windows as you need, file-copies, etc.  That drops your local
>requirements to one PC and one printer, which only needs to be powered on
>when you've got something to print.  Let Digital pay for the power to 
>run the VAXstation!

    We no longer have documentation.  The only thing we now have is what's
    available on CDROM through the bookreader.  I'd hate to be stuck at
    home with NO way to look things up - unless the PC can access the
    bookreader on the VAX?
    
>The above might be accomplished with Pathworks (not sure), and could certainly
>be accomplished via TCP/IP using SLIP or PPP into a DECserver 700/900.

    Yes, this was what I was told by the network folks.  They ALSO stated
    that attempting this at any speed less than 56KB was folly.  Even at
    that speed doing simple window displays was marginal.  Anyhow, I don't
    think its going to matter since it ain't likely to happen any time
    soon!
    

>How about remotely accessing data
>    on the disks of the remote VAXes from DECwrite for example

That wouldn't be very smart to do over a 9.6 link;  I have lots of local
disk space; my preference would be to use FTSV 3.0 to compress the .DOC file
first and then copy it over locally to muck about with it.

>    BTW:  From a conversation with one of our network guys, there are 56KB
>    modems that work on dial-up lines

I think you are refering to a digital dial-up line (not sure of the exact
term); this is not the same thing as a voice grade line.  *If* I could get
such a service in the semi-rural area i'm in, it would only be slightly less
expensive than ISDN, and would probably still be a foreign exchange service
(very expensive).  Voice grade lines are typically only rated by the phone
companies for speeds up to 2400 baud (at least that used to be the case),
requirements above that required a "conditioned" line.  In fact, most phone
lines will easily handle 9.6 and 14.4 isn't that uncommon with faxes these days;
56 would be a significant push of the envelope (I could be wrong though).

>    I'm not sure how far your drive is,

I did say "other areas"; I no longer have to pay for before/after schoool care
for my children (the kids ride the bus 'twixt home and school); a savings of
around $70 per week.

> Anybody know what the monthly cost is to run an
>    1800-2300 watt heater 

Not a bad guess; that's about what my VAXstation uses.  According to Quicken,
my electric bill went up about $10/month.

>    The same VAXstation that heats so well, also heats in the summer when
>    the air conditioning is on...

True, but not really much of an issue for me.  It doesn't get *that* hot
in Colorado.

The program works for me; i'm happy with the compromise.  The program may
not work for others.

--Scott

>    Ah, I thought this might be the old async DECnet.  I've not used it in
>    a while, but the last time I did, performance was less than optimal. 

Nothing has really changed in this area.  SLIP would probably be a better
choice for most people, since I believe you can let your modem do speed
buffering, compression and error correction.  Async DECnet will not tolerate
that.  To a certain degree I am constrained to async DECnet because of
my hardware and the nature of my work.

>Even
>    not running X I've been told that 9600 is inadequate to support
>    multiple DECterm windows.  True?  False?

There are other conferences where this is discussed (such as TELEWORK), but
briefly there is software available that can usually make DECterm performance
adequate over an plain async line.  Me, all my windows are local - I have no
reason to run DECterm over my DECnet link.

--Scott

    If you have a PC at home and can connect to a system running NT in the
    office, you might want to look at NT's RAS (Remote Access Services). 
    When I connect from home I get to use TCP/IP and/or NetBEUI transports
    through the server(an Alpha or Intel machine running NTAS). I can run 
    excursions to start as many X applications as I wish. I can run 
    applications like Mosaic or a PC news reader which run locally on my 
    machine. I have also been able to use MS/Access locally and extract
    data from RDB databases on VMS machines. I have only tried this with a
    14.4kb modem, and I get performance I'm willing to deal with. You can
    now get 28.8kb modems ($175-500) which do something like 4x data
    compression.

    If you need DECnet, this might be possible with some part of Pathworks,
    but I haven't looked into it. 
    
    -Bruce

    re: DC on H.O.M.E.
    
    That's me, for one...
    
    I've been on the Mid-Atlantic H.O.M.E. program since the pilot.  It's
    been about 2.5 years as best I can recall.
    
    At home, I've accumulated a VS3100, MV2000 (used as a disk server and
    to give me a cluster environment necessary for testing certain
    situations), and a VS2000 (presently retired).  I have an LA75 for
    printing (and Ghostscript when I'm desperate for Postscript) and a 9600
    baud modem (supports 14.4, but our dialin lines don't apparently).
    
    Because of my current work, I haven't powered up my VAXen in months.  I
    do most of my home-based work on my personal 386 either directly or via 
    dial-in (like now).
    
    My current assignment uses very few Digital-specific products.  As a
    result, my PC compilers serve me quite well most of the time.  When I
    go to the office, I find it hard to believe that people can be
    productive without CD-ROM drives, tapes, and FAXes available on their PCs.
    
    I work at customer sites most of the time these days, but I still work
    at home quite a bit.  I miss some of the info from the local grapevine,
    but I also seem to get more work done in less time.
    
    -- Russ

    
    Last I checked async DECNET is NOT available on AXP/VMS.  Better chose
    another protocol.
    
    Mike M.

    Scott, I hadn't thought about the other cost savings like child care
    and such...  I should have though, since there have been other people
    mentioning that - ours is 23 and out so she's a net DRAIN on the budget
    when she can't pay her car insurance instead of the child care cost
    some of you have!
    
    I'll have to catch one of our network guys and ask about the phone
    lines.  I inferred (actually he said) that normal voice-grade lines
    here are now capable of 64KB but I could be VERY wrong.  I know it used
    to require conditioning just to run 9600 so who knows what's hiding out
    there in the bushes.  There's also a rumor that they may eventually be
    getting some of the 28.8 modems here...
    
    It sounds like the consensus is that the HOME program works in some
    cases, depending on what you're trying to do.  I'd like to try it -
    sounds like my productivity concerns were groundless - IF I can get the
    right equipment and software.

    I've been told two days ago by our local IM&T/CNS networks person with
    within six months, all NON-hidden DECnet addresses assigned to desktop
    PCs will go away and that all PCs will/must be using TCP/IP.  Not sure
    of the overall impact of this in terms of certain internally-used
    software, but it's apparently the implementation of a decision made two
    or more years ago by people no longer with Digital.

    Maybe the original proposal could borrow something from the Cellular
    Phone Purchase Program? With our manager's approval, we got the first
    $300 towards the purchase and installation of the phone and legitimate,
    reasonable usage charges.
    
    There was also a considerable amount of footwork which provided me with
    contacts for various services, precautions, security information, and
    so on.
    
    Bill Kimbel
    TOEM Sales - Florida