Conference 7.286::digital

    re work related questions being banned in >>DIGITAL
    
    
    Prelude to employee-interest conferences being banned ?
    
    John
    

    Rest assured, I don't want any conference getting banned, so I won't be
    running of to Personel.
    ;-)
    Charles

    It does seem a bit odd that only notes directly related to Digital 
    business would be removed, while all others remain.
    
    In other non-work related notes conferences I've participated in,
    work-related questions are encouraged, since you often get a nice
    cross-section of expertise and skills.
    
    
    Chris

    
    	Why not, then, change it to READ, DON'T WRITE. For the rest of us
    this means we can write, but you can't read. 
    	I do believe I maybe having another bad hair day.......
    
    	:-)

re:               <<< Note 3156.3 by RHETT::KNORR "Carolina Blue" >>>

>    It does seem a bit odd that only notes directly related to Digital 
>    business would be removed, while all others remain.

Is this something that's happening in here? Apparently I hadn't noticed
it.

-Jack

>        Of late, there have been multiple postings asking for answers to
>        very specific questions.  It has NEVER been the policy of this
>        notes conference to be a forum for such question and answer
>        topics.
    
    Lord forbid we ask questions and get answers!  Someone, quick, stop
    this!
        
>        Note that the ASKENET conference has, as its charter, being the
>        place to ask questions and get answers.  
    
    Um....BULLOCKS!  Ask a question in there like "What's the rated
    throughput on a VAXstation 3100" and you'll receive immediate replies
    to "ask it in the appropriate conference".  ASKENET_V5 is best suited
    for questions like "If you're driving the speed of light and turn on
    your headlights, can you see anything?"  (Answer: no, the bugs on your
    windshield would be so thick...)
    
>    In the future, topics that are purely requests for information (as
>    distinguished from discussion topics that fit the charter of the
>    conference, as stated in this topic) may be removed without notice
>    to the author or any respondents.
    
    Well, the information has been refreshing, especially in the light of
    all the DISINFORMATION we get daily! :^]
    
>   your reply will be history, with the topic note.)  In the past, we
>   have usually forwarded the topic note and replies to authors when
>   the material is removed; this is an unnecessary burden that should
>   not be imposed on the moderators.  
    
    It'd be even less of an imposition if you'd just leave 'em in here, now
    wouldn't it?
        
    C'mon, this is more than heavy-handed and excessive moderation...it's
    ridiculous.  I find little gems in this conference CONSTANTLY that
    either brighten my day, dispel a rumour, or provide some good
    information.  Of course, the Prozac helps, but...
    
    There, I think I'm within the bounds.  I didn't ask any specific
    work-related questions that belong elsewhere nor did I provide any
    valuable information.  Hey!  I'm MANAGEMENT MATERIAL!
    
    							Tex
    

        The charter of this conference never was, and is not now, to be a
        place to get local-interest specific questions answered.  That is
        the charter of several other conferences.
        
        It is the charter of this conference to discuss "The Way We Work 
        at Digital", and of late, that seems to involve a lot of whining
        on the part of some conference participants.  
        
        Mr. Mallo's complaint in the topic note is, I suspect, due to my
        removing from the conference a question and answers, and sending
        them to the people who had posted them.
        
        If you have a problem with the moderation of this conference, you
        can use MAIL to contact ALL of the moderators.  You don't have to
        complain to any "corporate" group.  
        
        If the sense of the moderators, collectively, is that the charter
        of the conference should be broadened to make it a parallel to the
        ASKENET conference and other conferences that WELCOME specific Q&A
        on just about any topic, that would be fine with me.
        
        Tom

    Just finished talkin' w/ Tom (who blasted my rather humorous 3156.6, by
    the by :^[).  Appears this conference ain't GOT a charter (but we should
    be expecting one soon).  I went all through 1.* and find nothing except
    the usual "don't cuss, don't advertise, don't harrass, etc.".
    
    Now, I ain't whinin', but...uh...if'n we're gonna abide by the
    charter...shouldn't we have one?  Until then, shouldn't it be open
    game?
    
    							Tex
    

    re .7
    
    ... why are you doing this? 
    
    I'm a mod too, so I feel I speak from a position of appreciating
    your job..
    
    Up until recently, my experience (15 years) at digital has been
    that any information, pointers, support, humor, concern, that affect my
    ability to successfully do my job are all part of the "digital way of
    working". 
    
    I say "Up until recently" because it seems that lately I can't even 
    ask a question in a technical conference without being told to RTFM
    (even when there is NO FM), look somewhere else, not my job, I don't 
    have time, and no response at all. I have even seen a reply that the
    question is "stupid"! I did not expect to find that arrogance here...
    
    This conference works. You mods are very good at taking out the stuff
    that you feel is offensive. Now your hiding the stuff you don't like.
    Why can't you just leave us alone? Hopefully the good people who follow
    this conference will continue to point a misguided noter to the right 
    person/conference.
    
    Why can't you let us share & help us all to learn and grow in this 
    changing culture? 
    

    >Now, I ain't whinin', but...uh...if'n we're gonna abide by the
    >charter...shouldn't we have one?  Until then, shouldn't it be open
    >game?
    
    There are over a thousand announced conferences focused on many topics,
    both general and specific.  They are listed in many locations.  Why
    should we turn this conference, which -- although it may not have a
    charter, DOES have a specific focus, namely the Digital way of 
    working -- why should we change that focus?
    
    If you have a specific question about a specific topic, chances are
    there is already an existing conference to handle that question.  Find
    the conference and ask it there.  If you have a general, non-work
    related question, take it to the appropriate regional or activity 
    conference.  If you want open game, take it to the 'BOX.
    

    Well, my basic theory is that it all works out.  You put in a question
    like "I need information on Bisync communications..." and some
    well-meaning fellow Digit replies kindly "That would best be found in
    SUNK::BISYNC, you might wish to check EASYNET_CONFERENCES for...".
    
    I happen to like that a lot better than *BANG*, your note's dead.  Kinda
    like when someone calls my extension for another Digit, I don't slam
    the phone down on 'em or tell 'em to get out the phone book, I try to be 
    helpful.  Southern hospitality, I guess.  Ma allus said "play nice".
    
    							Tex

    Oh, I believe that occasional pointers are acceptable, and should be
    handled civilly.  However, it's often clear that the questoner is
    unwilling to do the work of searching for the right place to ask the
    question, and expects the rest of the noting community to do part of
    the work -- that gets real old, real fast.
    				
    					andrew

re .12 -

in which case the Next Note key moves you on away from the "offending" entry.

What I am seeing is the breakdown of community and the casting of aspersions on
the presumed motives of Noters who are not following some internal policy or
other. 

Even if a query is not well-researched, I would like to think that that is the
result of workload and downsizing rather than laziness - and respond
accordingly. Repeat offenders are easily enough ignored.

This Notes file is not the property of the moderator council - as much as the
continued operation of this medium depends on their good services <for which I
thank them>. It does depend on the community of Noters which involves a lot of
time, thought, good will and courtesy - and those have become scarce commodities
lately for good reasons.

Never-the-less - from my own stint as a Notes moderator - policy is best
"enforced" by using reins rather than a shotgun. Dead horses don't trot.

$.02
Norm

I would mail this to the moderator list, but I feel that what is
under discussion here, brought up by Tom's change in moderation
practices, is what the charter of the Digital notesfile should be.
That charter should be decided by a body larger than the overworked
moderating team.

In my experience, asking questions in an inappropriate forum is
usually self-limiting.  The right people usually aren't there.

I do, however, feel very strongly that the core of the "Digital way
of Working" is cooperation and community.  So I know exactly where to ask
about problems with Posix for OpenVMS tape handling.  I will ask there
because I know I'll get better answers.  Others may not have been blessed
with my time working with Posix, and may not know.  It makes me feel good
to be able to point them on their way and help them get the answers
they need to DO THEIR WORK.  In my mind that is entirely appropriate.

An extended discussion of the internals of Posix tape handling would NOT be
appropriate here, and I would expect moderator action.  Maybe. <NEXT UNSEEN>
works  wonders.

So, my bottom line is that if and when a charter is developed for this
notesfile, it should definately include the asking and answering of questions
that enable us to help each other work the Digital way.

Kevin Farlee

    
    Sigh..
    
    Get what you can out of this and other "notes".  This is part of the
    overall problem.. "That's not our job, go look over there!"
    
    Hey take the extra step, take the time to answer a question, so what if
    it seems petty.  Maybe if we practice it internally, we might even do
    it to our customers..
    
    Anyhow I really don't think we will have notes any longer.  This is a
    $17,000,000.00 expense that the company is aware of that looks like
    it'll go.
    
    

    
    	This is all rather sad. Tex had a great note, and refuse to be
    flamed by bureaucratic jargon.
    	This file doesn't have a charter. Period. It is to discuss how
    individuals feel, and react, to not only "the Digital Culture" and
    the "Digital Way", but whether that culture is even viable in light of
    the fact that three years of loses (Big Billions), a more agressive
    competition, a changing marketplace with far more knowledgeable buyers
    than ever before, is kicking us all in the posterior.
    	I've spent nearly a decade here, and have friends all over. This is
    a forum for us to WRITE our minds. I expect feedback here - lots of it.
    I expect human emotions, I demand respect (although that is somewhat
    open to interpretation), but most of all - honesty.
    	Being a moderator does take some time and effort. But really, how
    much in all fairness. This note goes back to 1985 for example. With
    all the stresses everyone is under these days,  a little creative
    noting is a wonderful release (no comments on this at all). Besides
    one might find a kindred spirit out there and a great American novel
    could be born.
    	That's the ticket.......
    
    		the Greyhawk

    I like it the way it is.  Moderators, you're doing a bang-up job! 
    Thanks.
    
    ..Larry

I don't write here much, but I do moderate other conferences and one of them
is a quite active EIN.

I'd request that you not do an all-out ban on notes that ask for help on
business-related issues.  However, in order to keep the conference in some
order, perhaps once the person has gotten an answer or a pointer to the 
appropriate spot then the note could be writelocked.

This serves a couple of purposes:

	- It doesn't alienate anyone.
	- People learn where the resources are.

Thanks for listening,

	dave

    I have three thoughts here: 
    
    1)  Based on the information in the easynotes listing, I would have
    thought that a file titled "the Digital way of working" is where I
    *should* go to ask questions like, "Who is the appropriate person to
    ask about selling a package that includes product XXX to YYY
    corporation?"  The notes files for XXX product and YYY corporation are
    not necessarily the right places to look for this information.  The XXX
    product file is liable to include mostly engineers and the YYY
    corporation file liable to be mostly about YYY products, not about
    selling to YYY.  
    
    I always thought the Digital way of working included helping each other
    out.  I thought it meant that when you didn't know something off the
    top of your head, you could ask other Digits and the ones who knew
    would tell you where you could find what you needed to know.  If that
    was in the manual, they'd at least tell you which FM to read, usually
    with a section number.  
    
    2)  I've noticed also that what seems to an expert to be a poorly thought
    out query usually reveals itself, on examination, to be the result not
    of laziness but of inexperience -- either with the conventions of
    electronic conversations or with the subject the person's trying to ask
    about.  An increasing number of queries have been from people trying to
    answer a question or make a referral that is outside their normal range
    of expertise -- people trying to go the extra mile.  
    
    Seems to me that the Digital way of working is the best place to turn
    for that assistance. 
    
    --bonnie

>    I always thought the Digital way of working included helping each other
>    out.  I thought it meant that when you didn't know something off the
>    top of your head, you could ask other Digits and the ones who knew
>    would tell you where you could find what you needed to know.  If that
>    was in the manual, they'd at least tell you which FM to read, usually
>    with a section number.  

	RIGHT ON!

This conference does have a charter.  It's stated in 1.0, clarified and
modified in 1.*.

Bob

    
    Hi all,
    
    I guess it was my original note that started this whole topic off. I
    have actually contacted the moderator offline to air my thoughts.
    I have mixed feelings about this.. on the one hand I can understand
    that the whole conference could end up being a free for all and lose
    its focus, but on the other hand I did get some very quick, positive
    and effective responses before the note was removed.
    
    I've probably been a noter ever since I joined Digital in 1986, so I am
    familiar with various notes locations etc. However like previous
    comments my belief is that we all need to pull together to get this
    company back on the road to recovery, and if that means redirecting a
    note to a more relevant conference then surely thats better than
    offering no help at all.
    
    The replies offered to my note as I said earlier were extremely useful
    and positive, and have actually saved me time (and hence Digital money)
    by pointing me in the direction of somebody that can help.
    
    Of course this is a personal view, and I will in future try and adhere
    to the various conference charters.
    
    Regards
    
    Kevin.
    
    PS: Thanks to the replies by the way

    "The Digital way of working" implies something is working at Digital.
    
    In my experience, the informal contacts made in Notes are invaluable
    for finding solutions not available in The Fine Manual we are always
    told to go read.
    
    We are all feeling a little stressed nowadays, but with the evaporation
    of other support, people are more in need of a helping hand than ever
    before.  Let's try to show a little more patience and flexibility with
    what still "works" at Digital.
    

    With regard to recommendations to "ask the question in the appropriate
    conference", it should be noted that many technical conferences are no
    longer really "active".  The people who used to read and respond with
    answers have all gone TFSO and the few who are left have little time
    for reading notes.
    
    We at least know that questions here will be read by a significant
    number of people.
    
    \dave

        Consider the difference in the following questions:
        
        CLOSED:  What's the maximum baud rate on a DF224 modem?
        
        OPEN:    Where can I get information on Digital's modem products,
        	 especially older ones like the DF224?  I need baud rates
        	 and other trivia, but some of these products are listed
        	 in the current catalogs.
        
        In the opinion of this moderator, this conference is NOT the place
        for the "CLOSED" question.  If the question gets asked here, so be
        it, and if the answer is posted promptly, all the better, but once
        an answer (hopefully correct, but when you ask factual questions
        of a highly detailed nature in Notes, you better be prepared to do
        your own cross-checking before you use the answer for substantive
        work, like, say, responding in a competitive bid situation) has
        been given, there's not much room for further discussion.
        
        On the other hand, the "OPEN" question leaves room for discussion,
        and if it's answered with an accurate pointer (or examples of how
        to find the answers to such questions, better still), then it can
        be useful to others later on.
        
        This moderator would argue that questions that fit the "OPEN" way
        of asking for information are generally welcome here, but those
        that are tightly closed don't need to be here.
        
        Further, questions that are looking for LEARNINGS, that is, how to
        navigate through the rapidly changing Digital landscape, in spite
        of "downsizing" and TFSO and the people who knew the answers going
        away, are especially welcome.
        
        Now, here's a novel concept:  disks aren't free, the network isn't
        free, the CPU cycles to search through conferences aren't free. 
        It all costs money.  If it isn't used effectively to further the
        business of the company, then at some point it's likely to simply
        disappear.  Even though the relative costs of these things drop in
        time, the cost of maintaining or upgrading the infrastructure is a
        real business expense, and the attitude of "just let us run free"
        isn't likely to cut it forever (if it ever did).
        
        Got some positive ideas on how to foster the open discussions and
        encourage new learnings?
        
        Tom

I know!
We can package OpenQuestionWorksforNotes !!

Sorry Tom, couldn't resist.

On a productive note, how about if you are answering a "closed" style
question, try to answer the closed question and the lurking open question
behind it.

To use Tom's example:

"Whats the maximum baud rate on the DF224 modem?"
Answer:
"The max baud rate is 2400 baud (or whatever).  You can find this and more
by looking in the SCHOLAR::MODEMS conference." (again, not a real pointer).

    re: .25
    	With a contracting company, CPU time and disk space *is*
    effectively free. In general, we have exactly what we had 4 years ago,
    plus the occasional AXP machine or PC, and we have 30% fewer employees.
    We don't know how to sell the surplus resources (I tried to buy this
    machine, a 7 year old VS2000, and was told I couldn't), but we can
    easily reallocate the usage (PASTIS could host a notes file that was
    not *too* active).
    
    	Networking costs are different. We are actively reducing them. But
    it is not obvious that *forcing* someone to repost a note in another
    conference is going to reduce our use of network bandwidth. Unless it
    is very long, leaving it visible in its original place probably costs
    about the same resources as hiding it, even if it is in the wrong
    conference.

    re: Note 3156.12 by OKFINE::KENAH
    
    > However, it's often clear that the questioner...
    
    I'm a nice guy (at least I think so), and when I see someone who
    asks a "stupid" question, I give them the benefit of the doubt
    and try to help them.  If they ask twice (at a later date), I don't 
    respond.  Lot's of folks don't have a clue how to use the many resources 
    available to them, and they don't want to be ridiculed while they're 
    trying to learn.
    
    People go out of their way to read the notesfile I moderate.  If I
    ridicule them, I'll soon be playing all by myself and that ain't fun. 
    
    MadMike

    Like you, I give naive users the benefit of the doubt, especially if it
    seems clear that they're new, and fumbling about.
    
    But there are also times when they don't have a clue, and have no
    intention of learning; these are the ones who deserve short shrift.
    
    					andrew

        There are also the ones who have been around long enough to learn
        the courtesies and the rules, and have been coached in more than
        one conference, and still haven't caught it -- either stubborn as
        a mule or smart as a brick, I'm not sure which.
        
        Tom

    This is going way over the top. New people *never* get shown the ropes.
    In the 5 years I've been here, I never got taught about vtx, notes,
    mail etc. Part of the learning process involves the odd dumb question,
    part of the learning process about Digital involves learning how
    helpful people are.
    
    Heck, in the last minute of desperation, uk_digital has answered
    questions many other conferences couldn't.
    
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg

    I personally feel it's important that we spend more time focusing on
    the intent, charter, courtesies, and acceptability of various types of
    questions (the "OPEN" -vs- "CLOSED", f'rinstance).
    
    I mean, sure, we've lost resources, have a wage freeze, a job code
    freeze, are to expect more layoffs, getting re-orged constantly, but I
    think the REAL PROBLEM Digital faces today is the PROPER use of the
    Digital notesfile, don't you?
    
    Luckily, senior management has formed a committee to review this very
    problem in depth and report back directly to Palmer!  If you'd like to
    join, you'll need plenty of spare time to address these issues.  So, if
    you've got a whoooole lot of spare time on your hands and reaaallly
    look forward to analyzing questions for open -vs- closed (and hopefully
    are familiar with DecStandard 181414 re "Open-vs-Closed Questioning:
    Identification and Elimination") then please extract the following
    text and forward via A1 to Robert Palmer:
    
    
    
    Dear Mr. Palmer;
    
    I've become concerned that we shall not return to profitability if
    people do not use the notesfiles in the manner prescribed in DecStd
    181414.  In response to this, I am ceasing all revenue-producing
    and/or support activity in pursuit of a solution for this problem. 
    As of this writing, I am spending 100% of my time at work analyzing
    entries in the DIGITAL notesfile for correctness.
    
    Please place me on your blue-ribbon "Technical Feasibility of Superior
    OpenNoting" committee.
    
    Thank you.
    
    (your name here)
    
    
    
    I'd love to be on this, but I'm afraid Digital has seen fit to burden
    me with 9 weeks of revenue-producing travel, non-rev internal support, and
    revenue-producing software development for the next 6 weeks.  Is it OK
    to ask in the Digital notesfile for a pointer to the conference that
    contains the postscript files of both DECstd 131313 and DECstd 181414?
    Whoops!  Was that an open or closed question?  Is this some weird kind
    of Catch-22?  Whoops!  Did I do it again?  Oh, no!  This is a loop!
    
    								Tex :^]