Conference 7.286::digital

    Haven't heard anything about France, but there seems to be some
    activity in the US, but I don't know how widespread it is.
    
    

    re.0 
    Jon, Maybe you can post the message you've been forwarded. 
    We did not yet heard anything, but really interested on what's going
    on in this area.
    Daniel.

	News from FRANCE :
	----------------

	On thursday 24 th of March, a massive stop work
	occurred on all sites of Digital in France to protest
	against the fifth layoff plan ( 471 heads) what was to be 
	announced to the Employee representatives on March 25.

	4 unions had asked the employees to stop work during 
	half an hour at 10:30 am and the employees did it massively
	( a year ago there was no unions in Digital France)


	On Friday 25 March, the French top management presented
	the layoff plan. After a few hours of debate, 
	the meeting was suspended because they could 
	not present a viable organisation and almost no figures.

	
	On Tuesday 29 March, the French Administration cancelled
	the layoff plan. A representative of the Management was 
	severely criticized by the French Administration because
	of the weakness of the reorg and because nothing was done
	to try to avoid layoffs (decrease expenses, part time,...)

	The french papers are writing numerous articles about
	the whole story. Digital was considered to be a pioneer in
	part time work since the 4th layoff plan were the NST 
	("Nouveau Savoir Travailler") was promoted by the previous
	 French President. The tone is changing now 
	(but HP is still presented very well in these areas
         because they successed implementing part time working in 
	some of their plants)

	The French employee representatives have distributed a memo
	stating that "a 5th layoff plan cannot be decently achieved
	by THE (almost) SAME MANAGEMENT which did 4 plans without
	success and which is not able to present a clear strategy"


	to be continued ... 

	
bruno
PS: Please feel free to moderate if this note doesn't fit with
    this notesfile policy. (Does it? )
 
    

    re -1
    
    yes. your notes, IMHO, do reflect information that belongs in this
    file. DEC is a global company and we all need to understand the
    whys/wheres/what fors in other parts of the world. please continue as
    things evolve.
    
    
    gene.

    Boy,has this whole topic been an "eye-opener"! I thought foreign (to
    the US) governments had some weird rules (to me anyway) but reading how
    the French government could actually "cancel" the layoff...well,it's a
    wonder that any company at all would willingly locate there. Is it like
    that all over Europe?
    
    Ken 

    	Different countries are different, but when DEC was making a
    profit, Europe as a whole was providing around 55% of it, mostly split
    between France, Germany, U.K., Italy.
    
    	Since both DEC France and DEC U.S. are running at a loss at the
    moment you would probably stop a larger loss if you closed DEC U.S.
    than if you closed DEC France. On the other hand, if we start making a
    profit again you should expect DEC France to account for up to 10% of
    that. Some international companies are willing to set up a subsidiary
    here if it can contribute 10% of their world wide profit.
    
    	There are weirder things. Until recently the Indian government
    would not permit more than 49% of a high tech company to be held
    outside India, so DEC India was 49% owned by DEC Corporate, and 51%
    owned by Indian shareholders. Apple was unwilling to submit to this
    arrangement, so DEC India manufactures Macintoshes under licence.
    
    	When DEC first set up a subsidiary in Hungary, after the collapse
    of communism there, they discovered to their surprise that VAX/VMS was
    *the* most popular system in the country. However, because of U.S.
    export licensing restrictions DEC had never been able to sell there.
    All the systems had been manufactured by a Hungarian company, and were
    using pirated copies of VMS. I believe regularising that situation was
    an interesting challenge.
    
    	In terms of social legislation probably Sweden and Germany are more
    restrictive than France, and Spain less so, but you should expect each
    country to spring its own little surprises when you start to do
    business there. That doesn't mean you should refuse to do business
    anywhere outside the U.S..

    
    I feel this topic is far more complex than some of the responses
    suggest. I'm not an expert, tho I am European and I have lived and
    worked in France.
    
    One issue is the "social" aspect and role of governments in industry,
    it is very different than say US.  Also, employees and employers pay a
    significant some of money into various social welfare systems, thsoe
    are government regulated.  Under French law (& German) an emplyer has
    to put forward a good case to support layoffs - ie they have to prove
    that its based on business decisions and will stand up to inspection.
    That is not a bad idea, regardless of layoffs or not.
    
    I think that anyone doing business ina foreign country must understand
    the laws, as one response points out, France could be less of a "cost
    sink" than US to DEC - of course it depends on how you cut it.
    
    Anyway, this is a very complex subject and I'm not an expert in this
    area, but I think the questions on "How can anyone do business in those
    countries", only looks at one small component of what an country offers
    an industry.

    Any bets on when we'll first see a reply telling us Europeans that the
    Americans saved our a$$ in '45?
    Face it people, Europe is a pretty big market, and when DEC decided to
    business here, they new there are different laws in the European
    countries than there are in the US.
    And even when DEC in Europe was still bringing in the dosh, the number
    crunchers decided we had to shed jobs.
    Maybe our "packages" are more generous, but that's the way things are
    done out here in the "old world".
    And with respect to social security, don't think it's that great.
    In Holland we're faced with a 53% difference between our gross and nett
    income. On top of that I have to take out an extra insurance to make
    sure I get 70% of my last salary if I end up on 100% long term
    disability.
    And although we "donate" generously each month for social security, we
    get very little out of it.
    In my case, if I become unemployed I get 70% of the legal minimum wages
    for 3 years. This is only because I have been employed permanently for 
    over 5 years.
    After these 3 years I should receive social security payment.
    However, I'm guilty of not spending my money on women, booze, big cars
    etc. I put my money into a modest house. So, I first have to sell my
    house, "eat up" what I get out of that and only then I can go to
    welfare.
    While on unemployment or welfare I'm not allowed to work. Any money I
    earn is deducted. This includes money I earn by renewing the wallpaper
    in my house.
    Mind you, I'm not complaining, just trying to make clear Europe is a
    far cry from the "welfare heaven" people think it is.
    
    Charles

>    Any bets on when we'll first see a reply telling us Europeans that the
>    Americans saved our a$$ in '45?
    
    Pretty funny, Ace.  My dad was one of 'em and still carries the scars. 
    Keep your lack of gratitude to yourself and concentrate on whining
    about how tough you've got it instead.  And next time you're in deep
    sh*t...call the world-renowned and much-feared Dutch army, 'eh?
    
    						:^] Tex

    
    
    I am from France and i would like to clarify some points about French
    Laws even if not an expert in these areas.
    Regarding the debate about 1945, i think it has nothing to do with
    the base note and i am really sure that 99.99% of French people are
    greatful to the US people that were killed for Europe ...
    so please do not mix the issues ...
    
    TO .6 and .9 :
    -------------
    
    1/ France is no more socialist apart from the president Mitterrand
       but many experts (even US) think he never was.
        Anyway the Prime Minister Balladur is from the "right" wing
    	of the French political arena.
    
    2/ The French administration cannot CANCEL layoffs.
    
    	It is just entitled to check the validity of a layoff plan.
    
    	For instance the conditions are different when the layoffs
    	are due to a loss for a company or to the desire to transfer
    	some employees from France to another coutry for instance ...
    
    	When the layoffs are due to a loss (we call it an "economic"
    	layoff plan )
        the French Administration (nothing to do with the government ...)
    	has to verify the reality of the loss, how the company is going
    	to reorganize to avoid another plan and so on ...
    
      3/ To come to the precise point of reply 4 :
    
    	 It seems that the French Administration was upset by the fact
    	 that Digital France wanted to fire people in a hurry (to do it
    	 during the fiscal year ?) and because of that was not trying
         to profit of different financial incentives offered by the French
    	 gorvernment (because it can take some time).
    
    	So this plan was cancelled, but it doesn't mean that Digital cannot
    	prepare another layoff plan. It will very soon in fact..
    	It only means that the new plan must be more documented 
    	with figures and explain how Digital intends to reduce layoffs
        or to reduce the impacts of them ...
    
    	In short, apart from public companies, the French administartion 
    	cannot forbid layoffs, it can just control that the companies
        respect some rules in doing them to protect the emloyees a little
    	more than in the US ...
    
    /Homi    	    	
    		
    

    The events in Europe of 50 years ago have no relevence to this topic,
    but well there is always a but isn't there !  8^)
    
    We are a multinational concern operating within many diverse cultures.
    It is the richness of the diversity of these cultures that can add
    value to the concern and the individuals who make up that concern.
    
    Pete

RE .12

If I remember rightly, there were no social-security benefits to the inmates
in the German concentration and extermination camps in Occupied Europe during
the years of '39-'45.

Moti

    Stop already .....

Please stick to the topic and no more comments about 1945 or I will be forced
to start returning notes to their authors.

Thanks,

Bob - Co-moderator DIGITAL

     Re .18
      With all due respect, I do not believe the responses would have been
    made if it had not been for a fairly condescending and arrogant remark
    made in .10...
    
      That said, notwithstanding the first sentence in .10, it seems that
    after reading the balance of the entry and weighing it against what the
    U.S. situation is in comparison, Europeans---at least in the author of
    .10's countyr---have a FANTASTIC golden goose to rely on when layed
    off!! 
      In the U.S., 26 weeks of unemployment---nowhere NEAR 70% of any
    specific wages, and if LUCKY, an extension of XX weeks....then it's
    nothing! Oh, sure, there's always welfare...food stamps and food
    kitchens and other types of handouts, but unless you have some REAL
    specific situations, no more...no social security, no unemployment...
    MAN!! Most Americans would WISH they had such a deal!!
    
      JMc

    
    Re: .19
    
    > MAN!! Most Americans would WISH they had such a deal!!
    
    Well if the deal is so good, how come we're not all flocking
    back to the "mother countries"?  The grass is always greener
    isn't it.  I rather doubt what looks like such a nice cushion
    to us is all that soft when you really land on it.
    
    Steve
    

    
    Re: god knows how many
    
    Why is are people climbing all over other people in this topic because
    of a difference in that particular country's govt/rules/culture etc.
    
    Some of the outbursts in here border on the childish.
    
    Maybe these issues should be raised to the president/prime
    minister/king/whatever of your particular country.
    
    In the meantime, stop beating ech other over the head with
    rules/regulations that they have no control over.
    
    Can normal service be resumed now or must we have more childish
    tirades?
    
    Not impressed,
    
    Mark. 

>    Can normal service be resumed now or must we have more childish
         ^^^^^^
>    tirades?
    
    Sorry, Dad.  Appears this is a notesfile, not a Dairy Queen.  PO.
    
    							Tex

    re .14:

    At the risk of being blasted by the rabid "capitalists" here in the 
    U.S. I think what was said in .14 (if accurate) makes a lot of sense:

    >to verify the reality of the loss, how the company is going to
    >reorganize to avoid another plan and so on ...
    
    Sounds reasonable to me...
    
    >Digital France wanted to fire people in a hurry (to do it during the
    >fiscal year ?) and because of that was not trying to profit of
    >different financial incentives offered by the French gorvernment
    >(because it can take some time).
    
    Again, sounds reasonable.  To me it sounds like a good idea to curb
    this kind of possibly short-sighted "make it look like a profit this
    quarter by reducing headcount" action instead of investigating every
    possible way of avoiding layoffs. 
    
    >...It only means that the new plan must be more documented  with
    >figures and explain how Digital intends to reduce layoffs or to reduce
    >the impacts of them ...	

    Again, seems like a GOOD idea to have somebody from the outside making
    sure a company is doing everything possible to retain them before it
    starts throwing people out onto the street.  And ESPECIALLY to have
    someone demand that any company explain how it intends to minimize the
    impact on its workforce.
    
    >In short, apart from public companies, the French administartion 
    >cannot forbid layoffs, it can just control that the companies respect
    >some rules in doing them to protect the emloyees a little more than in
    >the US ...
    
    One of the complaints I've been hearing in this notesfile is that
    "companies don't respect their employees" and "companies treat their
    employees like resources instead of people".  It seems that insuring
    that companies "respect some rules" and "protecting the employees"
    would be a GOOD thing.
    
    As far as other countries having "huge" golden parachutes...  maybe if
    the labor laws in this country were a little more humane there would
    have been more effort on <name-your-favorite-downsizing-company> part
    to find alternatives to throwing thousands of employees out of work.
    

    re:.21
    
    Sheesh,a European "Rodney King". I guess you're gonna retire to the
    Riviera after the civil suit,huh?
    
    Ken

    IF, if I could get a JOB in the MOTHER country, I would go in a Heart
    beat.   MY mother country would be France as you may tell by my last
    name.  I have lived and worked in Germany for 3 years, and I can tell
    anyone who wants to listen, that the USA is not Paradise, not even
    close to it.   
    
    I worked for a US firm while in Germany and I received a Telegram on
    Thanksgiving day, it said; "As of this moment your services are no
    longer required."  To this day - fourteen years later - I am still
    waiting for the final check for expenses and salary and vacation in
    the amount of >$17,000.00.  I will wait for an eternity for that and
    still never get it.  I sued for the money, and I got the old court 
    runaround of letting me travel from California to Wisconsin to continue
    the case.  If I wanted to front $10,000.00 I could continue the case
    with about 1 in 1000 odds of winning anything at all.  Had that been
    a German firm, I would have been able to go to the labor board, and 
    they would have gotten my money, and at least 3 months of pay, so I
    could have continued to live and seek employment.  I went to the German
    labor board, and that company had no contract with them, so I was SOL
    and Screwed as well.
    
    
    Dave
    
    

    
    I was writing in response to note 2970.26's response to .25, which I
    wanted to applaud both his/her (I DIDN'T CATCH THE NAME SO I DID NOT 
    KNOW IF IT WAS A MAN OR A WOMAN) sentiments and courage to speak up for
    the United States.  What happened to it?  Did the original noter remove
    it themself or was it deleted by the moderator?
    
    Mike
    
     

    >>							and I can tell
    >> anyone who wants to listen, that the USA is not Paradise, not even
    >> close to it.   
    
    A lot of people in the USA have a singularly narrow and isolated
    perspective on the world...and don't want to learn otherwise.

re: .26, .27, .29

Moderators, haven't we had enough of this xenophobic bigotry yet?

This topic is now writelocked.

		Steve