Conference 7.286::digital

        We have also done some thinking about how information
        providers supply information to the catalog for their
        "listing".  

        The central data item is called an "announcement."   An
        announcement is a fielded text record which describes (and
        gives "how to get" information about) something.

        An announcement is pretty much the same information as a
        catalog record (although there may be some differences, e.g.,
        control information).

        The "how to get" information will typically be a URL.  A web
        browser which displays the corresponding catalog entry will
        typically display a link to that URL.

        Announcements probably will have a few standard fields such
        as the identification of the originator.  Some fields may be
        arbitrarily long text, such as for a description.  My
        intention is that most fields are optional although the
        contents of some of those fields may be standardized.  The
        set of fields should be extensible.  [I suspect that there
        already is an internet standard for message fields, we
        probably should adhere to this.]

        Announcements might be created with a special-purpose editor,
        by filling in a (HTML) form, or a text editor.

        Announcements are sent to a (logically) central facility very
        similar to Tom Malone's "Anyone Server" or Anita Borg's
        "MECCA".  This facility is a re-distibutor.  Individuals and
        catalog maintainers (which might be automated agents) can
        subscribe selectively to receive announcements as they are
        issued.  Certainly E-mail is one transport which must be
        supported for the submission and distribution of
        announcements but it might not be the only one.

        Subscribers to the announcement distribution service supply a
        pattern (which can be also viewed as a "query" or filter
        rule) against which announcements are passed.  Announcements
        selected by the rule are forwarded to the subscriber as
        requested in the subscription record.

        (Jim Miller and a student with which he works at MIT are
        reporting some very impressive performance results for
        matching structured text records against large collections of
        queries.  We also have available Mark Post's "Office Filter"
        technology as used in his Sentinel personalized news
        service.)

        Some individuals will simply have announcements delivered
        with their mail.

        Automated catalog maintainers would take the incoming
        announcements (filtered according to their selection criteria),
        edit, format, and augment the information for catalog use,
        and insert them into web-served catalogs.  We have only begin
        to define what such a catalog should look as a web service,
        but I imagine that catalog entries could be searched (via
        WAIS or other indexed technique) as well as browsed.  I
        assume that the browsing would be supported by dividing the
        catalog into subject and other categories.  WE REALLY COULD
        USE SOME IDEAS HERE!

        Bob

        One bottom-line consideration for us is whether anybody would
        use such a "union catalog" of Digital information resources
        and whether the producers of information items would supply
        their announcements to such a system.

        One sanity-check comes from the fact that, when shown the
        Web, people almost always ask how can they find the
        information they need, or how to decide where to look, or
        even how to know if the information they need is available
        at all.  People always say they want something like this.

        However, I have been involved in several experiments in
        which good search access is provided to a large collection of
        items about which people are often complaining that searching
        is too difficult.  In most of the cases very few people use
        the enhanced search capability.

        Would those of you who are "information providers" provide
        announcements to this system?

        Bob

        One obvious question is the degree to which this catalog and
        the announcement service duplicates the functions or serves
        the same purposes as the automatic indices created by "web
        walkers".

        As retrieval systems they will have quite different
        characteristics.  Bruce Croft at the University of
        Massachusetts has shown that different retrieval methods and
        different document representations will typically retrieve
        different subsets of the collection (one way of looking at
        this is that they fail and succeed in different cases) and
        that retrieval quality can be enhanced if the results of two
        different methods can be combined.

        Web Walkers might have an edge in thoroughness since they
        might succeed in collecting and indexing items that are not
        otherwise announced (presumably, an owner too busy or not
        caring to contribute to the announcement stream).  (Note that
        an announcement need not be created by the same entity as the
        information being cataloged -- abstracting and indexing
        services can be just as useful in the electronic realm as
        they are in paper.)

        Web Walkers, on the other hand, would have relatively little
        success in indexing items whose content is not at all textual
        (images and multimedia).

        In addition, formal announcements can more easily convey the
        formalisms developed for classification developed for
        particular disciplines.

        These techniques could work together, of course.  Web Walkers
        could synthesize catalog records which are distributed by the
        announcement mechanism and inserted into the catalogs derived
        from announcements.  By walking through the web-delivered
        catalogs, Web Walkers could obtain useful descriptive
        information for non-textual objects cataloged therein.

        Thoughts, please!

        Bob

    I don't know much about the technical aspects of the solution(s) to the
    problem being presented.  I do agree, from what little I've seen of the
    Web, that solving the indexing problem will save much human resource.
    
    In business terms, end users need to be able to find the information
    they need quickly.  The tools they use need to be very simple to learn
    and operate.  End users (mostly business-types) should define what
    "simple" means.
    
    As the Service Manager for the Corporate VTX Library (and Registry),
    one of the most often voiced complaints has been that, as simple as VTX
    is to use, it's still difficult to find the information the user needs
    to do their job.  That's not a VTX problem, however, that's a
    shortcoming of the Library and the Registry.  To implement a truly
    effective indexing solution would require significant investment in the
    Registry/Library system *and* the the re-registration of hundreds of
    infobases. 
    
    The Web seems to have this problem...but even more so, since it
    provides a common access to many information sources.  I believe you
    have defined that as one of the significant problems.  I think it will
    need a solution that will look like some sort of automated registration
    service with some common dictionary.
    
    But...before we get to solutions, we must clearly define the problem in
    business terms.  Has this been done yet and is there somewhere we can
    get our hands on this information?
    
    Thank's.
    
    Jim

A question will arise in the course of an account meeting or from a direct
customer query. We need to know if: 1) a specific product fits a customer need;
or 2) a customer need is addressed by some product(s). Two ways of initiating a
search.

The kind of info may be marketing oriented if it is to be presented to the
customer; but in my job, first, it has to be technical info to assess whether
and how it will work with the customers technical environment and then percolate
upwards through configuration and availability to pricing to ultimate
presentation and sale (if it all goes right).

Currently we have to play guessing games with VTX & NOTES & printed materials
and often come up empty even though we know that the info is out there
someplace. VTX IR is a step in the right direction although its interface seems
clumsy at this rev level and it too comes up dry for the questions I research.

I have access to VMS workstations and PCs. I would like something that would
collect query information and return pointers (if any) to:

Sales Update
Product managers
Related NOTES files
Related VTX infobases
Pricing
Presentations
SPDs
Online doc sets
Online demos
Online internal software
Online catalogs (i.e. SOC or Net Buyers Guide or DECdirect)
Product loaning channels
Hardcopy literature (catalogs plus glossies)
Option/module list
Other on-line or hard copy sources of tech info that I don't even know to ask
for 'cuz I don't know they exist.

Example: I might ask for info on "SNA" & "VMS" & "ALPHA" and get back a list of
our products that fall into that space. Then I can research the list getting
back the pointers referred to above. Then research the pointers.

We have more fluff in print that tries to say what things do but damn little on
how the things do what they do; the customers hate the fluff although some of it
is useful for basic education on concepts. But to close a technical sale with a
reasonable amount of effort (or at all) requires pointers to more than fluff,
more than Sales Update. The glossy with "Connects your VAX and your IBM" sounds
great but at my level is fluff. I hope using WWW or similar technologies will in
time get us the info we need to sell.

Thanks for helping ... in advance.
Norm

    The problems, real problems , are not technical , no tools can solve
    them. One can very much imagine WWW and Mosaic or whatever producing 
    enormous amounts of confusing information.

    It has been said many, many times over past few years, and it does
    start to make some impact on the DEC external activities :

    	- be close to your customer 
    	- listen to the customer
    	- understand and solve his problems in his own terms.

    First few replies in here suggest that we internally do still the other
    way around - we have solutions and then look for customers.

    What if really usable solutions are paper catalogues like "Golden Eggs"?

    We are still a company of crazy technophiles that still can afford to
    waste money without a clear customer ( internal or external) in sight.

    My advice for your project - approach the potential internal customers
    and ask them to fund your development.

    Advice to DEC management - cut the funding for this project , let them
    go and sell the idea to potential internal customers and not get paid
    via corporate tax.

    While we are at it, some goes for VTX or ELF - it is not "VTX is
    difficult to use " it is your particular design of VTX that sucks.

    I need often to find SPDs in VTX , the recent change made it much more
    difficult, I almost need to know the SPD number in order to find SPD or
    it's sequential search through many screens. VTX SPD is one of the key
    databases for anybody trying to sell a piece of software to a customer.

    Ease of information accessibility and quality of information is one of
    the major aspects of my work as a network management operations
    designer. Our operators need to have lots of clear procedures and
    technical details readily available on 24/7 basis. It is really a very
    difficult job to make sure my customer ( operators ) can access and
    understand the information . The major is challenge is very high
    pressure ( resolving problems in a major real time trading network) and
    fatigue ( graveyard shift). Sometimes we spent weeks on writing a two page
    document.

    This is completely inverse universe to our internal information systems,
    we spent ten times more on designing the system and getting blinded by
    technology then on figuring out who is a customer and how he accesses
    the information.

    Once you figured out that, tools can use dumb VT220 terminals.  

    							wlodek

    I too would like to see a clear description of internal and external
    customer needs.  With regard to the latter, I was surprised to discover
    that only c.10% of members of several DECUS chapters have access to
    Internet yet DECUS members are consistently requesting more information
    on our products and services.
    
    We are incurring crazy costs in the production and mailing of
    literature yet the actual content is generally falling short of
    internal and external needs.
    
    Mark 

    I would say you should understand all of the administrative practices
    that were set up to make the corporate VTX service operate with
    a minimum of hand-holding.   This was worked out almost TEN YEARS
    AGO!
    
    No as for how the inforbases get built, technology has moved along
    and we now have content based retrieval available for VTX, and more
    people should be using it.  The SPD infobase is one example.
    
    By the way, is there a Mosaic client for VT terminals?  If there
    isn't, you had better forget it.

    Actually, it would be (perhaps) nice if more infobases
    started using launchable pages, or long pages along with
    CBR.  Instead of extra work for wordperfect or postscript
    or powerpoint or any format, they can be tossed into vtx now.
    
    Anyway, there is "a Mosaic" or character cell http client.
    (Not that Digital sells it, either)  It's LYNX.  So that
    isn't a major problem... a slightly larger problem is
    systems that don't have TCP/IP - there are no provisions
    for DECnet only systems, and training.
    _bill 

I was one of the "users" that was surveyed, and I still get questioned by 
the people on this project.  I am a field peon who bounces between sales 
and marketing, depending on the wind of re-orgs.  The first time I was 
called was at least 4 months ago.  I do not know who all was involved.

One of my needs expressed was to use the same system to acces data outside 
the company as inside.  As badly as we are organized for getting information, 
getting 10Ks, 10Qs, product info and trend data from disparate sources 
outside Digital is worse.

We do not have access to much of what we need, and a lot of my partners
issues can be resolved by my tracking the usenet conferences on the topics 
my partner is concerned with.  If I only read the trades and what is 
available in Digital, I would be no more useful to the customer than any 
other sales person calling on them.  Since we are an also ran in the 
industry I work in, I must be more helpful than the HP, Sun, IBM, NEC, and 
all the other sales people calling on the customer.  

I think the people on the project were surprised that I actually prefered 
Lynx over mosaic, but it is easy to use, and works over a modem as well as 
a terminal.  Mosaic is pretty, but the combination is better than only one.

Anyone that has tried to show VTX to the uninitiated instantly sees how 
poorly set up we are.  It is keyboard dependant, user hostile, and changes 
interfaces for the "heckof" it.

I need access to Compuserve, America Online, and the Internet, and I 
actually prefer a common user interface.  I need access to information that 
is outside of Digital.  If we already know everything, how come we are 
moving from 2nd place to 4th with the trend consistant?  We as a company 
are too inwardly focused, and even us field people who know better often 
fall into the trap thinking that the answer an internal tool provides is 
correct.

I use Lynx from a modem and from a terminal emulator on my 320pc that is 
on a DECnet environment.

Catch the wave or drown.  I don't care.

Matt

    RE: -1
    
    Have you tried using the new VTX for Windows client?  Version 2.0 was 
    released last month and it is anything but user unfriendly.
    
    And, as others have already pointed out, the problem doesn't lie
    entirely with the VTX software.  It lies with those who design VTX
    infobases, who haven't upgraded their VTX software in years (we're up
    to version 6.0 and many people internally still are using version 4.1!)
    and haven't begun to use all the new features available such as the new
    windows client, full text retrieval, the ability to launch 3rd party
    software such as wordperfect, word for windows, excel, powerpoint, etc.  
    
    Maybe if we as a corporation were more willing to use the latest
    versions of our own software, we wouldn't be complaining so much!
    
    
    Gita

    RE: -1
    
>    Have you tried using the new VTX for Windows client?  Version 2.0 was 
>    released last month and it is anything but user unfriendly.

One of the the things I said in .10 was that consistancy is very important 
to me.  If the VTX for Windows Client only works with VTX then it is not 
worth the disk space to me.  I want one tool that I can use to browse ALL 
the information I need to deliver acceptable service to my customer.  VTX 
has little of use in it to help me solve my customers problems.  I want a 
single client that allows me to find info on language problems, what 
consultants are saying about business problems, get technical articles and 
journals, ...  All the things I try to do to help my partner.

>    And, as others have already pointed out, the problem doesn't lie
>    entirely with the VTX software.  It lies with those who design VTX
>    infobases, who haven't upgraded their VTX software in years (we're up
>    to version 6.0 and many people internally still are using version 4.1!)
>    and haven't begun to use all the new features available such as the new
>    windows client, full text retrieval, the ability to launch 3rd party
>    software such as wordperfect, word for windows, excel, powerpoint, etc.  

This is by DEFINITION a problem with the software.  If the end users are 
not getting their needs addressed while using a product, then the product 
is difficient.  I just went into help on VTX across a modem line, and I can 
not see how to get information dumped into my PC transparently.  If the 
data is not made available in a way I can use, then the tool is broken.
   
>    Maybe if we as a corporation were more willing to use the latest
>    versions of our own software, we wouldn't be complaining so much!

Why can't a new version automatically load "dated" info and make it 
available in the new way?  When I sit at my laptop and can't figure out how 
to do a search and can't get help, then the tool is broken.  PF1 KP7 has no 
meaning on a laptop.  I do not doubt that it can be made to work, but the 
world is moving to Mosaic and Lynx, we can catch the wave, -or- we can drown.

Matt

>>    And, as others have already pointed out, the problem doesn't lie
>>    entirely with the VTX software.  It lies with those who design VTX
>>    infobases, who haven't upgraded their VTX software in years (we're up
>>    to version 6.0 and many people internally still are using version 4.1!)
>>    and haven't begun to use all the new features available such as the new
>>    windows client, full text retrieval, the ability to launch 3rd party
>>    software such as wordperfect, word for windows, excel, powerpoint, etc.  
>
>This is by DEFINITION a problem with the software.  If the end users are 
>not getting their needs addressed while using a product, then the product 
>is difficient.  I just went into help on VTX across a modem line, and I can 
>not see how to get information dumped into my PC transparently.  If the 
>data is not made available in a way I can use, then the tool is broken.
    
    	It sounds as if it is a problem with the IS department and the
    information providers rather than the software. VTX V6 was presumably
    written and shipped precisely because V4.1 was deficient. If whoever is
    responsible chooses not to use V6 and its features then it is their
    strategy that is broken, not the tool. V4.1 (like the Intel 286) was no
    doubt best in its class a few years ago, but you don't have to keep on
    using it.

    ..and for things like SPD, the problem is not the VTX at all.
    It is the design of the structure of searches etc..

    We try again to solve problems that have nothing to do with technology
    with a latest and greatest. 

So where does one get a copy of the V6 VTX kit?  (kitsdir.doc is no longer
being maintained, and our local served CD kits shows version 5.1 to be the
last release).

And how does the casual user tell what version of VTX they have access to
so they can request it to be updated if necessary?

	Joe

We are making it (VTX V6.0) available to our customers... from the
listing for the March, 1994 VMS Layered Products CDs:

        DEC VTX Version 6.0 for    6.0    031AA  Updated  3   [VTX060]
        OpenVMS VAX

Lee

    The kit announcement (in part)

        The VTX Engineering group is proud to announce that DEC VTX V6.0 has
    finally shipped to the SSB. The significant changes in this release
    over VTX V5.1 and VTX/TR V1.0 are:

	. VTX/TR merged with standard VTX
	. Multi language stemming (9 languages)
	. New Windows client; now sold separately
	. Clients translated into 7 languages
	. Significantly revamped DOS client
	. Launchable pages - a way to store almost anything in VTX
	. Lots of bugfixes to text retrieval indexing and searching
	. Server-to-Server TCP/IP

	. VAX/VMS kit:
	
	    VIA::DISK$PROJ4:[VTX$PUBLIC.V60.VMS]

		VTX060.%
		VTX060_RELEASE_NOTES.TXT
		SPD_26_57_15.PS
		SSA_26_57_15-A.PS
		VTX060PAK.COM
		APPLICATION_PROVIDERS_GUIDE.PS
		INFORMATION_PROVIDERS_GUIDE.PS
		SERVICE_PROVIDERS_GUIDE.PS
		TR_AND_NEW_FEATURES.PS

	    Copy with FTSV and use VMSINSTAL. Release notes are in plain
	    text.

	. ULTRIX-RISC clients:

	    VIA::DISK$PROJ4:[VTX$PUBLIC.V60.MIPS]

		VTX600.TAR

	    Copy with 'dcp -i' or push with FTSV. Use 'setld'

	. MS-DOS client:

	    VIA::DISK$PROJ4:[VTX$PUBLIC.V60.MSDOS]

		VTX060_DOS.BCK
		README.TXT

	    Copy with FTSV; restore with BACKUP; Copy with NFT COPY/BLOCK
	    or mount directory with restored files using PathWorks.

	. Windows clients:

	    VIA::DISK$PROJ4:[VTX$PUBLIC.V60.WINDOWS]

		SPD_52_62_00.PS		- Generic SPD (all languages)
		SSA_52_62_00-A.PS	- Generic SSA (all languages)
		README.TXT		- Installation hints
		    
		VTX020_WIN_ENU*.*	- English
		VTX020_WIN_DEU*.*	- German
		VTX020_WIN_FRA*.*	- French
		VTX020_WIN_DUT*.*	- Dutch
		VTX020_WIN_ITA*.*	- Italian
		VTX020_WIN_ESP*.*	- Spanish
		VTX020_WIN_SWE*.*	- Swedish

	    There are 2 save-sets per language and one PostScript file.
	    Copy all three with FTSV to your local VMS system. Restore
	    save sets into [.DISK1] and [.DISK2]. Create one floppy from
	    each or mount directories with PathWorks. Then run SETUP.EXE
	    from first diskette. The PostScript file is the translated
	    Windows User's Guide for the client.

    ____________________________________________________________________
    As for how to tell what you have, depends what system you have.
    For windows, it's on the bar/and the icon.  On VMS, if you wanted to
    know about the character cell version, a command like
    $analyze/image sys$system:vtx$client_cc.exe/head
    would give you some output like 
           Image Identification Information
    
                    image name: "VTX$CLIENT_CC"
                    image file identification: "DEC VTX V6.0"
     Or if you wanted the motif client it's vtx$client_motif.exe...
    The server utilities and tools give version level when run, and/or
    in various log files.  Current software identifies itself as V6.0
    Or call your help desk....Many have lists of what software they have.
    
    Some vtx notesfiles are at VIA::VTX_TECHNICAL and VIA::VTX_MARKETING.
    _bill