Conference 7.286::digital

    
    Is going to happen ?
    
    A DECwrite presentation done with POWERPOINT ?

    I second .0's concerns.  It seems like Digital is to survey orientated
    and less common sense is used - because of this our tools quality, 
    flexibility and several VTX info bases lack user friendlyness and
    render themselves useless.  We can and should do a better job of
    designing tools.  VTX is a good product but application
    infobases need to be more user friendly as complexity goes.  
    
    I would reccomend that .0 talk to the infobase designers and voice your
    concerns again.   If they don't give you satisfaction - talk to their
    managers.    Tools designers should design and listen to all users and
    accomodate all users.  Previously used functionality should be upwardly
    compatible whenever possible.   
    
    .0 You have a valid concern - don't give up - talk to them again.  

Re: .2 
	No, but I'll bet the DECWrite specs were written with Word For
Windows }8-)}

Someone called me regarding my note AND I should mention that they are very
receptive.  

First, they have a valid point, today we have to search a lot of separate 
databases for information.  VTX IR will consolidate the focal pointinto one 
interface - GREAT!  

However, look at applications already on the market and do ONE better.  Don't be
trying to re-invent the wheel.  We didn't have any problems justifying the demise 
of DECwrite and DECpresent and when you compared them with Word and PowerPoint
weren't bad, the opinions of one user, but when you compared them with Interleaf,
etc. they couldn't compare.  The same thing should apply here.  I don't want 5
generations of the product to get to the level where the user's can get the
information they need.  Why can't you do it right or near right the first time?
Maybe you don't use them in your day-to-day activities and can't understand 
the product requirements - ask the field.  We need to start from NOT develop to,
better planning will help to achieve this.  

But then this is all irrelevant because VTX IR is here and it's going to develop
into what we need which is going to take time - which we might not have.

I want a product that I don't have to read the manual.  DEC has forced me into
the PC arena and I haven't read any manual for the 23 PC products that I use and
very proficiently I might add.

	Regards,

	 kam

Re: .5

The reports of DECwrite's "demise" have been greatly exaggerated.  It is alive
and well.  Can't say the same for DECpresent, more's the pity.

				Steve

    Our department is dropping DECwrite and moving to MS Word.  So much
    for "use what we sell".  Kinda weird.
    
    				Brent

Re -1

Well, we DO sell MS-Word, too.

    I know we don't develop MS-word, so we're keeping someone else's
    developers employed and laying off ours.  Also, do we get it free out
    here, like DecWrite, or do we have to pay for the PC licenses?

    Ahhhhhh -- A DECWrite war!!  DECWRITE/DECCALC and DECPresent need to go
    to the great beyond!!
    
    I have 3 pcs -- The laptop, which we take to customer sites and present
    Powerpoint presentations
    
    The one on my desk which I use the MS suite of products and the PC at
    home that Clones the one in the office.
    
    I'd much prefer using a PC than being stuck with a VMS based
    workstation because I get a whole lot of other functionality on my
    desktop than I could ever hope to get with the workstation.
    
    I cannot envision being stuck with DECWrite et-al, given the choice.
    
    More than supporting a Microsoft developer, it's a case of mis-
    deploying our talented resources chasing the Not Invented Here dreams.
    
    Actually, DECWrite et-al is a classic statement of; "If I build it, the
    customer will buy it."  -- NOT!
    
    My .02
    
    Dennis

    
    I think DecWrite also comes in PC versions now.

    I can get by with Word on my Mac as well as the other MS tools.
    DECwrite is out of reach for me.

Never having used DECwrite, I don't feel qualified to discuss its technical
merits vis-a-vis WinWord.  But I DO know that 99.99% of my customers use 
either WordPerfect or WinWord.  Even if DECwrite is vastly superior, it is
just another WP package in a commodity market.  Why waste valuable talent in
maintaining it?  Let's concentrate on products that differentiate us in the 
open systems market.


Bob

Actually, when the first version of DECwrite for Windows came out,
I tried installing it on my PC at home, since I used DECwrite under
VMS in the office.  During the installation process, it made a number
of rather insulting comments about the speed of my PC.  It also 
took at least as long to open a document on my PC as it did on my
somewhat under-powered VMS workstation and host system.  (A good
2-3 minutes!)

I don't know what Word for Windows THOUGHT about my PC, but it
had the grace to keep it's "mouth" shut during installation, and
could open documents in 15-20 seconds.

So I deleted DECwrite in a huff, and since I now use a PC as
my workstation in the office, have given up DECwrite and DECpresent
(the latter very happily, given it's habit of eating slides at
the slightest slip of a cut and paste oepration) in favor of Word
and Powerpoint.

/Butch

    on my PC i use LATex for all my heavy duty work word processing, iam
    working on a book right now and iam writing it in LATex.

    i think LATex should mandated as the official word processing system in
    DEC, not DECwrite or word window or word perfect, LATex, visa-visa word
    processing system is the most flexible and powerful for making
    documents and books and articles.

    just thought i point this out since it was not mentioned before.

    \bye
    \nasser

>                                  -< LATex?? >-

An "easy to use" front end (developed by an ex-DECcie, if my memory serves
me right) to Knuth's infamous TeX (pronounced "tech" by the "initiated",
I hear ;-) typesetting software.

TeX, btw, is also behind the scenes in VAX Document.

Not "wysiwyg".

...petri

    The point is, as alluded to in reply .10, that Microsoft's Office suite
    and Lotus Smartsuite already provide solutions that make DECWrite,
    DECCalc, and DECPresent obsolete.  Microsoft and Lotus own the market. 
    For us to try to compete with products that are already installed in
    99% of the market is ridiculous.

To me the most telling comment in the DECpresent vs Powerpoint war is the
fact that all new presentations in OPAL are now in .PPT format, with the
old presentations being converted from DECpresent to Powerpoint ASAP.

I was a dedicated user of DECwrite.  I used it for customer letters, white
papers, documents, and small presentations.  It ran acceptably on my 
VAXstation 3100 Model 76 with 32MB of memory, and having the clipart CD
made it very nice.

My customer introduced me to Word for Windows and Powerpoint.  I then ran
them on my DECstation 325c with 8MB of memory.  I was immediately struck by
the fact that my mid-range VAXstation (costing maybe $20K new, and available
for $6K today) did not perform as well as my low-end PC (costing maybe $2.5K 
new, and available for under $1.5K today).  File opens, saves, paging forward
and back, searching, all took much longer under DECwrite than under Word for
Windows.  And before you ask, I had put in a lot of time tuning my VAXstation 
so that it ran properly.  Ease of use was similar for both products, but don't 
forget, I had had 3-4 years of practice with DECwrite and a few weeks of 
practice with Word for Windows.

The price of the two packages is also instructive:  $1450 for the license
plus $450 for the media/documentation for DECwrite for my VAXstation, as
opposed to $299 (including media/documentation) for Word for Windows.

The hardware is $6K vs $2K, and the software is $1900 vs $299.  Sigh.

I am trying to do the right thing for Digital, but I am losing the high-end
war against Interleaf, and I am losing the mid to low-end war against Word for 
Windows.  I don't know where I can successfully sell DECwrite anymore...

I have completely switched over to Word for Windows, Excel and Powerpoint.
And I am not alone...

-- Ken Moreau

    By jove -- I believe noter .19 has a crystal clear AND accuraate
    view of the issue --
    
    Person must be a rocket scientist -- 'cause if the person's observation
    could be made by mere mortals, our stealth marketing organization would
    put a smart bomb on the products.
    
    Sighhhhhhh.
    
    Dennis

    Re -.1
    
    Gee thanks.  Nobody's ever referred to me as being crystal clear and
    accurate before.

Let me just add,

DECwrite didn't lose from lack of good intention, or talent, or effort.
Market dynamics made it uncompetitive.

Approximately 40 million PCs will be sold this year.  If just one percent
of those are used to develop software, that's 400,000 software developers.
Compare this to a few thousand people in Spitbrook.  DECwrite et. al.
will never be able to keep up with the features and performance of PC
based products, and Digital would never be able to recover its
investment in continuing to develop it.

> I don't know where I can successfully sell DECwrite anymore...

Exactly the point.  We shouldn't be trying to sell DECwrite anymore.
Thank goodness management had the discipline to cut our losses on
these products.  I only wish we had responded sooner.

- Peter

   <<< Note 2915.18 by RANGER::BACKSTROM "bwk,pjp;SwTools;pg2;lines23-24" >>>

>>                                  -< LATex?? >-

>An "easy to use" front end (developed by an ex-DECcie, if my memory serves
                                             ^^^^^^^^^
I'm sure Leslie Lamport would be tickled to know he is an Ex DECcie.  He's
still in ELF (and even the phone book).


>...petri


Bill

    Paul,
    
    	Another 10 cents - when was the last time you had to 3-finger
    salute your VAXstation?  Let's see, last time I did it was because I
    installed new software - the installation guide informed me ahead of
    time.
    
    Charlie

re   <<< Note 2915.18 by RANGER::BACKSTROM "bwk,pjp;SwTools;pg2;lines23-24" >>>

>                                  -< LATex?? >-

>An "easy to use" front end (developed by an ex-DECcie, if my memory serves
>me right) to Knuth's infamous TeX (pronounced "tech" by the "initiated",
>I hear ;-) typesetting software.

    Common Name:   LESLIE LAMPORT
    Search Surname:  LAMPORT  Search Given Name:  LESLIE,  LESLIE B
    DTN:  543-2170  Intrnl Mail Addr:  UCT1  Location:  UCT  Node:  DECSRC
    Username:  LAMPORT  Org Unit:  CORP RESEARCH & ARCH
    
    Famed mathematician, typesetter and humorist. Read some of his SRC
    papers. There are some amusing bits...
    
    q

    re .25
    
    >>You must not have had the right software installed on your OpenVMS 
    >>workstation. 
    
    Such as???  (And this is an honest question.)  There's a lot of VERY
    impressive SW for PC's out there.  And the rate of increase in
    sophistication and capability is high.
    
    re .26
    
    Actually, my office configuration is about as stable as my old VMS
    workstation/LAVC environment was.  And I've worked in VMS environments
    that were considerably less stable - particularly when the system
    manglers hadn't yet gotten the hang of configuring and tuning and
    maintaining large CI/LAVC environments.
    
    My home configuration is less stable, but then I do do a fair amount of
    fiddling with new software, configuration changes and experiments, and
    etc.  Now that DOS 6.0 and 6.2 have introduced a simple boot bypass and
    stepped boot capability, things are getting closer to stable there too
    (I've hung a lot of VMS systems with strange HW and tuning choices too
    - it's part of my job). 
    
    /Butch

    Re: .10
    
    Your right. When are we going to realize that we should understand what
    the customer wants before we build it.

    Last year I had a pc at my desk.  I teach pc related courses and it was
    felt that being a "user" would help me be a better instructor.
    
    Then we re-org'd
    
    The pc was taken away last summer.
    
    My preparation suffered.  My development stopped. My productivity
    lagged.
    
    I complained to my manager... and her manager... and his manager. 
    Three weeks prior to Christmas (93) I got approval to "rent" two pc's.
    
    Yesterday (Feb. 28) both pc's were delivered.  Both are rentals
    (Compaq's with IBM monitors).  One was improperly configured with just
    one disk drive (need two drives to develop). 
    
    The cost of the rental?  Only $529 per month (both).  
    (of course it's from a different budget... but, they ALL contribute to
    the bottom line at some point)
    
    Is this a great way to do business, or what?
    
    t

    
    I don't have a PC on my desk ... just an Alpha Workstation
    with VMS or OSF/1.
    
    So i use DECwrite and have problems when trying to include
    figures from PPT.
    
    By the way i have noticed that Postcript files generated
    by PPT are very long to print on a Printserver 20
    and sometimes they completely block the printer ..
    Any hints?
    

There are some hints about printing PostScript from Microsoft Windows in the
PostScript printing Notes conference.

Paul

    RE:  "We already spent the money, let's try a ROI"
    
    It's no fun trying to swim upstream.  For the price a PC license for
    DECwrite I can get MS-Office and have money left over.  Our idea of PC
    pricing is quite hilarious.  Minimal market share and high price ...
    let's see that ought to help change the situation to No market share
    and high price.  DECwrite may have wonderful features, but the big
    market is PC desktops and in that space software suites are now king of
    the heap.  Ask WordPerfect how the suites have altered the playing
    field for them!
    
    Regarding sales people going to VMS customers to convert to WNT.  Ever
    considered that many customers are making the switch away from VMS. 
    I'm seeing it all around me, even from solid customers.  Better we sell
    them WNT or OSF/1 than HP, IBM or SUN taking the business from us.  For
    years we fought against UNIX spouting the virtues of VMS no matter what
    the customer was telling us.  Maybe that sales rep was listening and
    was trying to retain a customer that was intent on leaving the VMS
    fold.

    Nit -- Access comes with MS Office Pro, not Standard. The MS Mail
    license (no software) comes with both.

    Lets have one thing clear : DECwrite for Windows is *not* a product.

    This is just a piece of Softare and some books or "half a product".

    What makes products in commodity/consumer space is massive publicity
    campaigns. No advertising - no products and dreams of ROI.

    So, DEC, cut your losses or invest in selling DECwrite for Windows.

    Does anybody doubt that Microsoft would not spent a $ on writing MS
    Access or MS anything if they did not have committed marketing money ?

   

    re: .-1
    
    I was focussing specifically on DECwrite ... is this a strategic
    product for Digital?  Certainly not in any accounts I work on.  AXP on
    the other hand is what we are betting the business on.  In this case it
    makes some sense to fight the curent.  It's knowing when to float with
    the current that's important.  If we want to do DECwrite then let's do
    it right (marketing!) or let's let it die.

  "We make buggy whips, we've always made buggy whips,
   and we are darn well going to keep making buggy whips."

  "Excuse me sir, but now that affordable cars are widely available,
   there isn't much need for buggy whips anymore."

  "Nonsense!  We make buggy whips, we've always made buggy whips,
   and we are darn well going to keep making buggy whips."

40 million PCs will be sold this year.  If just 1% are used for
software development, that's 400,000 software developers.  Compare
this to a few thousand people in Spitbrook.  VMS DECwrite et. al.
will never be able to keep up in features, performance, or price
with PC focussed products.  Digital will never be able to recover
its investment in continuing to develop DECwrite.

  "But we already developed it, why not sell it?"

Because compared to other popular products, it's underpowered,
overpriced, and will not be supported.  People we would like to
keep as customers deserve better from us.

  "Why don't we focus the resources to engineer and sell
   a best in class PC word processor then?"

Because the investment would be enormous and other companies are
already doing a good job.  We could add little value for the investment
required.

We have got to start seeing WHAT IS REALLY NEEDED THAT IS NOT BEING
DONE and respond appropriately.


I've read several notes now about the lack of leadership at the top levels.
I don't think this is the whole problem.  We lack leadership in the ranks.
Where are the people in each business who really see what our customers
want and need and how we can offer them cost effective solutions?

I know they're out there.  Why aren't we listening?

    Believe it or not, there are two manufacturers in the US of
    buggy whips, and both businesses are doing well.

re .41:

All that you said is true, except where VMS is concerned.  There is
a PC need for a VM operating system, and there is no clear victory
for any system now.  VMS will run very well on Alpha, and has a
wealth of applications.  It will also run DOS apps with the right
programs.

Lew

    re .44

    If:  Alpha-based PCs were competitively priced relative to other 
         PCs (and MACs)

         Alpha-based workstations were competitively priced relative 
         to other workstations

         Alpha-based server (and related "large") systems were
         competitively priced relative to other such systems

         All of the Alpha-based systems out-performed (or at least 
         matched) their closest competitors

         All of the Alpha-based systems ran PC applications and 
         OpenVMS applications and OSF/1 applications more or less 
         interchangeablely (operating system du jour)

    we wouldn't have to worry about our place in the market, would we?

    Dreams, maybe, or possibilities ... reality has to start somewhere.

    Terry

        <<< Note 2915.45 by DEMON::PILGRM::BAHN "Possibility of IDIC" >>>
                      -< May as well go for the gold ... >-

>Now that Windows NT is destined for servers and not desktops, OpenVMS runs on
>PCs and an OpenVMS AXP version of SoftPC is coming, maybe we could reposition
>OpenVMS once again as a leader on the desktop.  Or is SoftWindows on OpenVMS the

I wouldn't dismiss NT quite so quickly. It is primarily a GUI desktop system.
It's just that the current release is a little heavy for the task so MS
repositioned it (I guess) as a server. Given a little time, both MS and
DEC versions should do well.

>>I wouldn't dismiss NT quite so quickly. It is primarily a GUI desktop system.
>>It's just that the current release is a little heavy for the task so MS
>>repositioned it (I guess) as a server. Given a little time, both MS and
>>DEC versions should do well.

It's the Unix vendors that have more to loose in the short-term.  With
NT, you'll be able to run that large historically workstation based
application on the same machine with the cheap PC software.  Digital is
focusing alot of its NT efforts on getting those large "workstation-class"
applications ported over to NT.  Just look at Pro-Engineer.  

Garry

> 40 million PCs will be sold this year.  If just 1% are used for
> software development, that's 400,000 software developers.  Compare
> this to a few thousand people in Spitbrook.  VMS DECwrite et. al.
> will never be able to keep up in features, performance, or price
> with PC focussed products.  Digital will never be able to recover
> its investment in continuing to develop DECwrite.
    
    This argument is fallacious.  No single company has as many software
    developers as all of the PC software developers combined.  This does
    not mean that no company can make money in the PC focussed products
    arena.  What it does mean is that no single company can do everything.
    
    With respect to DECwrite.  The total number of PC software developers
    matters not.  What does matter is the investment Digital is making in
    DECwrite compared to the investment LOTUS and Microsoft and others are
    making in the arena in which DECwrite competes.  
    
                                              August G. Reinig

  
>    With respect to DECwrite.  The total number of PC software developers
>    matters not.  What does matter is the investment Digital is making in
>    DECwrite compared to the investment LOTUS and Microsoft and others are
>    making in the arena in which DECwrite competes.  

You are right that the developer count does not matter to customers.
By the same token, the investment poured in does not matter either.
What matters, the ONLY thing that matters for most is results.
What functionality is delivered for what price.

If we can deliver more functionality per dollar than the competition,
then our products will succeed.

If, on the other hand, we deliver less functionality for more money, 
the product will not be bought in any great volume.

Evaluate the product against its competition imagining that it is your checkbook
in hand and honestly tell us which *YOU* would spend *YOUR* money for...

    I spent my money for AMIPRO.  No contest.  And I could have gotten
    DECwrite for free most likely.  (How does Digital feel about employees
    copying DEC products from use on their home PC?)
    
    You are right about investment, it is the results that count.  However,
    unless we are so much better at software development than our
    competitors, then a simple head count is a rough approximation of the
    ability to add functionality.
    
                                        August G. Reinig

    The DEcwrite for PC does not exist as a product in the market place.

    It is not the question of the functionality, price or anything else.

    It is not marketed, period.

    Lets see another example of marketing, MS Access.

    I bought one last year, did not even install it ( just read the books).
    Why ? Because I could not afford otherwise, I had some vague plans for a 
    db project. Now, this is marketing !

>If we can deliver more functionality per dollar than the competition,
>then our products will succeed.

	If this were true, then the best product would always win. And we
	know that doesn't happen.

	That's not saying that DECWrite is the best product. Just that
	there's much, much more to the formula than the technology sells
	itself."

	Roy

   There is no such thing as "The Best Product."  (Although, I'm sure
   some argument could be put together for the worst product.)
   
   "The best" is a very subjective thing.  I am an AmiPro fanatic.  I do
   not like MS-Word 2.0.  For me, AmiPro is the better product. 
   However, my brother likes MS-Word better.  Why, AmiPro meets my needs
   and personal preferences for word processing.  MS-Word meets my
   brother's.  
   
   In economics, this boils down to utility.

  In .49 you say "the number of developers doesn't matter."

  In .51 you say "a simple head count is a rough approximation
  of the ability to add functionality."

As you move up and down the problem chain it's easy to see different
symptoms and conclude different solutions are appropriate.  This doesn't
change the fundamental problem.

The low cost PC market is so much bigger than the traditional mini-computer
time sharing market that we no longer have a large enough mini-computer
customer base to support the software investment needed to compete
effectively with general purpose PC productivity software.  PC software has
been driving the software industry for some time now.

A handful of software of developers can be extremely successful if
they create a distinctive PC focussed product with broad appeal.

But after many generations of Wordprocessors and Spreadsheets,
the market expects mature feature rich products beyond the capability
of most small development groups.

Your point is essentially correct.  We can't do everything.
What things should we try to do?  I argue we shouldn't try to
do things for which there are already excellent low cost solutions
available unless we can add significant value or make them much
less expensive.

- Peter

    What I said was that the total number of PC software developers does
    not matter.  
    
    What does matter is the number of people working cooperatively 
    in your niche.  If we have 10 people building something and there are
    100 competitors, each with 1 person building the same thing, we are
    outnumbered 10 to 1 in raw numbers.  However, we probably have the best
    thing.  
    
    On the other hand, if we have 10 people building something and there
    are only 2 competitors, each with 50 people building the same thing, we
    are probably way behind.  
    
                                    August G. Reinig