Conference 7.286::digital

    
    
    Sorry to hear of your situation, Lorna.  I hope things work out for
    you.  You ask why.......that's a good question that I sure don't
    understand.  Let us know what you find out.
    
    
    Mike

    
    
    Lorna, it would seem that you have a good case against DEC here. 
    Maybe you oughta look up one of those lawyers who offers free
    consultation. 
    
    I sure does sound like you're getting the shaft here. 
    Maybe it's time to say "enough is enough" and get MAD. 
    
    Sorry to hear it.
    
    Cathy

    Get a good lawyer.  If you feel you're getting screwed, it takes two.
    Return the favor.
    
    Bob
    

    Lorna, let me get this straight. You've been told that your job is
    going away, but you have time to look for another job, and there is no
    limit  yet on the amount of time that you have to find that job, and
    you will still be receiving a paycheck and benefits while you are
    looking?
    
    Why is this discrimination? You're not being TFSOd without a package.
    You're being asked to find another job while Digital is still paying
    you; that's very different than being asked to leave the company
    without a TFSO package. If Digital tells you that you have to leave the
    company if you don't have another job in X amount of time, and they
    will not give you a TFSO package when you have to leave, maybe then you
    have a case against Digital. But as far as I can see, you're in a
    position that a lot of people who are being TFSOd would love to be in -
    no time limit on finding a new job, and pay/benefits while you're looking.
    
    Marleen

    Lorna, I know of 2 secretaries that were OFFERED the package.  You
    might not qualify for a very simple reason... your age.  To qualify you
    must be over 50 (the earlist package was 55) and have been in the
    company certain amount of years.  It seems that you are fully vested
    and thus, you could get the TFSO if you are olf enough to retire minus
    the years offered by Digital, (I believe it was 10?) Age 50-55 and older
    DO qualify for the package.
    
    I hope this clarifies your situation.
    
    Ana
    

    re .5
    
    I think you're thinking of SERP, not TFSO...?

RE:    <<< Note 2872.4 by SPARKL::GRANT "hordes of utopian do-gooders" >>>

>> no time limit on finding a new job, and pay/benefits while you're looking.
  
     I'm not so certain that "unspecified time to look" and "no time limit"
are equivalent concepts in this case.

                                     Greg

    I don't think you have a case - yet.  Since they notified you that your
    job was going away so start looking, you'll offered much more than one
    that's tapped on the shoulder on Monday and you have until Friday to
    find a job and oh, by the way, all the existing req's all frozen and
    need a VP approval.
    
    Two secretaries have left our sales organization since December and had
    no problem finding other jobs...in both cases with pay raises to boot.
    
    That's why I'd have to say you don't have a case - yet.

    re: .8
    
    I disagree.  I think .0 is in almost the worst possible situation. 
    Let's compare the situation:
    
    TFSO -					.0
    
    You have 1 week to find a new job.		You have an unknown amount
    If you don't find a new job you		of time to find a new job.
    will be given 20+ weeks pay plus		It may be 1 day or a year.
    medical benefits for this period		You may or may not receive
    of time.					any advance warning as to
    						when the time is up.  If
    						you do not find a job in
    						time, you will not
    						receive any severance pay
    						or medical benefits.
    
    
    Which situation would you rather have?
    
    Bob
    

    re: .8
    
    The worst possible situation I could think of in .9 would be:  You are
    terminated effective immediately with no severence or benefits.
    
    Bob

    .11
    
    Back in 92 we called Personnel and they didn't even know what the
    "straight" story was.  One day we had all the time in the world to
    look, the next we didn't. One day were were told that if we didn't have
    an interview we didn't have to come into the office, then the next day
    we were told we had to come in even if it were to sit and count
    paperclips. Another day were told that our "job" was to look for a job, 
    then we were told that it was not and that while we were looking we 
    would be arbitrarily "assigned" a job with no right to refuse.  
    
    No one seemed to know what was going on, least of all Personnel or 
    Employment.  We were left high and dry and feeling very vulnerable 
    and lonely.   The stress and pain were very high--much higher than if
    we had been TSFO'd.  

    This is *very* confusing! A secretary is told:"you have to find another
    job at DEC because yours is going away. This is because we must reduce
    headcount. Another secretarial job won't be hard to find because there
    are so many openings" So,the secretary finds another job at DEC. How
    did we reduce headcount?
    
    Ken

    <--- I believe it refers to the group she supports will no
         longer be of a size that requires her services.
    
    /Bob

    I agree with you Lorna - you are getting screwed!!!  If you are going
    to lay someone off than do it!  Have you been told that you can go
    looking for a job - 40 hours a week - or do you have to continue with
    your duties??  What I have been hearing is that DEC is trying to get
    people to 'leave' no package, no unemployment benefit - just alot of
    stress - I just heard that they TFSO'ed almost 70 performers from the
    education group - but they kept the two managers! 
    
    An employee is an employee - if the package - as little as it is - is
    offered to one it should be offered to all!!  One of the first packages
    were given to manufacturing plant in AZ.....most of the employees knew
    almost two years that they were going to be let go.  They waited for
    the "package" after sitting around all that time - literally reading
    books and knitting!!
    
    I would seek a professionals' advice...it can't hurt!  If there is
    truly nothing you can do I would make them laid me off before I quit! 
    Then you can at least collect unemployment.
    
    Don't let the cancer that is spreading through this company hurt you. 
    Be strong.    

    
    
    	RE .9,
>    						when the time is up.  If
>    						you do not find a job in
>    						time, you will not
>    						receive any severance pay
>    						or medical benefits.
    
    Where is it stated that the person in .0 will not receive any
    severance if a job is not found in time?
    

I agree with Ed in .18. It isn't clear that Lorna might receive no severence
if she can't locate a job, other than if she looks until there are no more
severence packages and then is asked to just leave. Obviously if she were
asked to leave with nothing when packages are still available, she would
have a cut-and-dried case. If she's "kept around" until the well is dry,
the litigation should be somewhat more cloudy.

-Jack

    re: .18, .19
    
    There are 3 possibilities here: 1) She gets the current package. 2) She
    gets something better than the current package. 3) She gets something
    worse than the current package.  According to .0, possibility #1 is
    out.  This leaves #2 and #3.  Since she was given no assurance that she
    would be getting #2, and given that she was invited to look outside the
    company for a new position, I'm guessing (and so is she) that she is
    getting #3 if she doesn't find another job between tomorrow and some
    undefined point in the future.
    
    The only bright side to this whole thing would appear to be that since
    she isn't being officially TFSO'd, no VP approval would be required for
    her to accept a new position internally.
    
    Bob
    

    I meant call Personnel and find out if the package is available to
    secretaries..then there will be no guessing. 

    
    I have to agree with sentiments voiced earlier.  It sounds to me like
    what is really being said is: "We aren't offering you the package,
    but are telling you to find a new position."  Being offered the
    package is effectively being fired with little notice.  Your current
    situation is better than this any way you look at it (i.e., you
    have lots of notice, relatively).
    
    That leaves the question of what happens if you can't find another
    position in the company, relatively soon.  There are two options:
    1)  they offer you the package, or 2) they fire you without any
    package.  The second option would clearly provide the basis for
    legal action, so I find it hard to believe that it is likely.  In
    the first case, you are no worse off than if you had been offered
    the package up front.
    
    The only possible losing scenario for you would be if you would
    voluntarily leave the company, thus saving them the package money.
    
    Good Luck,
    Rich

    The key point in this story is that Lorna has been put in a situation
    without being told clearly and completely what the rules are.  She does
    not have a clear idea of what her status is.  When people are stuck in
    a no man's land like this they have every right to be upset.  It isn't
    clear that anyone is out to stick it to her BUT it also is not clear
    that someone isn't. People tend to fear the worst in these situations.
    
    Companies that care about their employees don't do this kind of thing
    to them.
    
    Steve
    

    Secretaries are being given the package.  They are also being told to
    find another job when theirs is "going away" (usually that means they
    need the headcount for someone else - manager/engineer, etc). 
    Attrition is also a key point - when secretaries leave, they are not
    often replaced (thus the headcount is available to hire someone in
    another function - and usually rely on another group's secretary).  In
    my humble opinion, there are areas of this company where treatment is
    not fair, but that is not the whole.  I believe the fact that Lorna has
    been given time to find another job is good news for her.  She is lucky
    that there are approximately 60+ jobs in the jobs book today and many
    are in the Maynard area.  (If she were working in the NH area and
    looking to avoid MA tax, she would definately be getting screwed
    because NH has 2 or 3 jobs open today.)  At this point, my suggestion
    would be to take the time, find what you want and wait to see if a
    package is forthcoming.  I wouldn't bother seeking a lawyer, looking to
    screw before getting screwed, etc.  Hang loose and update that resume.
    
    -sandy 
    

    .24
    
     60+ Sr Admin Assistant jobs?  Where!
    
    3 in New Hampshire
    35 in Massachusetts--from Boston to MRO 
       (and some of those are either not taking any more resumes, or on hold)
    27 in places like Tampa, Greenbelt, Santa Clara, etc.
    
    From what I can see there are probably not more than 20 jobs in MA that
    are open and real.
    
    
    

    RE .22

    I know several people who were told "Your job is going away, find
    another one". They were told they had a fixed amount of time to
    find a job. If they still had not found a job at the end of that
    time, they would receive the package that was applicable when the
    were actually TFSOed. 

    Re .23

    Yes...it sound like Lorna's management could have done a better
    job in presenting the options to her. Perhaps they simply did not
    know all the details.


    Re .0

>    Why are secretaries being treated differently?  Why are we not being
>    offered the package like all the other employees whose jobs have gone
>    away?  Why are being discriminated against?
>
>    (It couldn't be because somebody at Digital knows that most secretaries
>    can't afford lawyers, could it?)

    I expect one reason secretaries are treated differently is that
    they are one of the few professionals in the company whose core skills
    can be used by any organization. I do know secretaries who were
    TFSOed, but I know many others who were told to "find another job"
    and did so. 

    As for being discriminated against, In my opinion you are being
    discriminated for (is that a term?). As others have said, I'll bet
    there were plenty of people who were TFSO'ed who would love to
    trade places with you.

    
    	Can you say INTIMIDATION?
    
    	It sounds a little too coincidental to me that Lorna has found 
    	herself in the same situation twice in a year and a half. IMHO,
    	her current management is aware of her previous situation and is 
    	"offering" the same options in the hopes that she'll panic, take 
    	any old job anywhere, and make it real easy on them - its called
        intimidation.
    
    	Then of course there's always the method of performance issue....
    	Stress out the individual by giving them sketchy details, no
    	real info, tell them to spend all their time job hunting, push
    	them over the thin line of sanity, then ding them for not doing 
    	their job - voila! Poor performer!
    
    	Only a lawyer can tell you if you have a real case or not, so
    	I'd STRONGLY suggest contacting one. Many offer free legal advice
    	and they can direct you on the best path from here. 
    
    	Take care of you!
    
    		Heidi

    Around the end of 1992, we had three secretaries in my group who were
    told to "find other jobs" within the company or outside the company,
    their choice.  One got so fed up by the whole situation of being jerked
    around that she up and quit the company.  The other two were able to
    find jobs internally. 
    
    How does one go about escalating this to higher powers?  If personnel
    can't give a straight answer about the package deal, is there someone
    out there who can?
    
    Do any of the higher ups know how the little guy feels right now?
    
    My 2c worth. 
    

    
    
    
    	Not only can a Sec get job in any organization, but they can
    	take there skills out of the company much easier, to work in
    	other businesses. (medical or what not) As apposed to someone
    	in a specialized field..  

    
    Re: .26
    
    > Yes...it sound like Lorna's management could have done a better
    > job in presenting the options to her. Perhaps they simply did not
    > know all the details.

    If they didn't know then they should have said so plain and simple
    i.e. "All I know is what I'm telling you.  I understand that you have
    questions and I don't know what the answers are."  She might not
    like such an answer but she can't fault them if they are straight
    about it.
    
    > As for being discriminated against, In my opinion you are being
    > discriminated for (is that a term?). As others have said, I'll bet
    > there were plenty of people who were TFSO'ed who would love to
    > trade places with you.
    >
    >  -< You have it better than many >-
    
    Come on, Ed.  Uncertainty is no fun.  Hearing that you are being
    TFSOd and have until Friday to get an offer from another group may
    be a difficult thing to hear but at least you have no doubt what
    your status is.  I'm much rather hear that and know what I have to
    deal with than to come in every day wondering what additional dribble
    of information is going to doled out to me.
    
    Steve
    
    

    RE: .23  by NASZKO::MACDONALD 
    
    >When people are stuck in a no man's land like this they have every
    >right to be upset.  
    
    Would Lorna be stuck like this if Secretarial job codes were not, for
    the most part, truly a no man's land?
    

it all boils down to the eternal dilemma :

In a company that is cutting people with more to come, is it better to be 
cut now or latter ?  you weigh the pros and cons. 

My opinion is Digital should assume its employees prefer to stay if their 
skills help them find another internal job. Otherwise it would be a 
total admission of business failure.

unfortunately the Company is not doing very well, it is a sad situation.
    
     

    
    Re: .32
    
    > Would Lorna be stuck like this if Secretarial job codes were not, for
    > the most part, truly a no man's land?
      
    It was not my intent to bring that issue into this, but you have a
    point worth considering.  Inquiring into that issue would be
    interesting to say the least.
    
    Steve
       

    
    RE .30
    
>    Come on, Ed.  Uncertainty is no fun.  Hearing that you are being
>    TFSOd and have until Friday to get an offer from another group may
>    be a difficult thing to hear but at least you have no doubt what
>    your status is.  I'm much rather hear that and know what I have to
>    deal with than to come in every day wondering what additional dribble
>    of information is going to doled out to me.
    
    I guess we just differ here Steve. I would much rather be uncertain 
    about my job at Digital than to have no job at Digital.
    
    Yes, uncertainty is no fun, but life is full of it.
    
    					Ed
    
    
    

    
    Re: .35
    
    > Yes, uncertainty is no fun, but life is full of it.
                                      ++++++++++++++++++
    
    Exactly, which is why there is no excuse for creating more
    of it when there's no need to.
    
    Steve
            

Having been in a similar situation a couple years ago (though not as a 
secretrary), I can tell you that the uncertainty is *KILLING*. You flip flop
between despair and hope. Whether there are grounds for legal action, this
sounds like a terrible way to handle the situation. It maximizes stress,
which is highly contagious. Lorna is both lucky to still have a job, and
unlucky to have absolutely no idea what is about to happen with it. Unlike
the rest of us who live with daily uncertainty, she has been told that it is 
going away. While I know that is always possible with my hjob, no one has 
*told* me that (yet...8^}..).

    Well, someone in my organization was a secretary and was laid off
    without a package, about two weeks after she joined our group after
    finding a req. open in our group.   Her last job went away in another 
    group.  She was under 50 (hadn't ever heard that age was important in 
    getting a package), and couldn't find another secretarial job because 
    all the reqs were locked up.  She was told that WC2 people don't qualify 
    for a TSFO package.  So she looked for several weeks and then they 
    terminated her without anything.
                                             
    So... probably like a lot of Digital policy, this is being handled
    inconsistently from one group to another.  

At ASO WC2 people did get TFSO packages but that was a couple of years ago.

Is this the new class system for digital?

dave

    My husband was a WC2 and got TFSO'd a little over a year ago.  I 
    never heard WC2's could NOT be TFSO'd?
    
    
    
    Lin
    

    Anyone who was TFSO's received a packag.  T(ransition) F(inancial)
    S(omething) O(ption) - thus financial means money.
    
    Otherwise they were just plain old fired/laid off.
    
    -sandy
    

    I am a secretary, I have been told my job is at risk, AND I have been
    told that if I don't find another job within Digital I *WILL* get a
    package.