Conference 7.286::digital

Dave, wouldn't your Thomas Cook $1200 ticket have been refundable?
$1200 deosn't sound ridiculous for a refundable ticket on that route.
In fact, it sounds "reasonable" (at least considering what air travel
costs these days).

This is the reason I've always understood for why our business travel
fares are higher than what I can do on my own: we (Digital) always buy
refundable tickets, because business needs are more likely to change
than personal travel. It seems you have left this important point out
of your mail. I know you're aware of it, so I'm curious why you didn't
mention it.

    Re .-1
    
    I didn't mention it because I KNOW that this trip won't change.
    Presentation schedule is set.
    
    I totally disagree with the philosophy of:
    
    	We as a company can't plan more than a week ahead so we better buy
    	tickets that cost twice as much just in case we need to cancel
        them or change them.
    
    A much better philosophy would be to let people use common sense on
    booking tickets. Ie if you need the flexibility of a changeable ticket
    then pay extra. If not get a non refundable one.
    
    I'd much prefer to see the policy as. everybody should get the cheapest
    ticket possible (even if it is non refundable/non changeable). But if
    there is a high likelyhood of needing to change it then get the more
    expensive ticket.
    
    Dave

    How often do you refund a ticket ? With DEC's volume, all
    non-refudable tickets could be insured for small few ( $10 ?) against
    refund problems. Things like that could be certainly negotiated with
    some insurance company. $700 refund insurance on $1200 trip sounds a
    lot.

    
    I had to cancel a trip once, and had bought a non-refundable $700
    ticket. WE GOT A REFUND!!!!!!!!! I think we might have lost around
    $50, but we got the rest back.
    
    Unless someone tells me that "non-refundable" is a hard, firm rule,
    I can't accept this as a reason for the higher fares.
    
    If "non-refundable" means: your money is now committed, but you can
    apply it to a different flight, then it should be EASY for Digital to
    work with this and save mega-bucks for the company. Kind of like
    "merchandise credits".

    All of the air tickets obtained for me by Thomas Cook (and Amex before
    them) have been non-refundable fares.  I wasn't even given a choice.
    What burned me up was that I purposely made reservations during a
    3-day sale window and got confirmation from TC that they had issued
    the tickets at the sale fare.  But when I got the tickets, they had
    not been issued until after the sale ended and cost nearly $100
    more.  After a couple of months of complaints by my secretary, TC
    refunded the difference to my cost center.
    
    I have also found that TC makes no effort to find the lowest available
    fares, even without using consolidators, and ignores requests for
    particular airlines and flight times.  From now on, I intend to make
    my own reservations and tell TC to just issue the tickets.  I shouldn't
    have to do TC's job, but they obviously don't want to be bothered to
    do so.
    
    					Steve

    ON a similar note. From here in australia, Policy is business travel to
    the U.S. (and I wouldn't wan't to consider a 26 hour flight any other
    way...) This means around $5,500 ret. for someone to go to the GMA Area.
    
    I talked with an associate (ex DEC) who has negotiated a direct deal
    with one of the Airlines, which gets him Business or first Class Seats
    to Boston and back for around $1200.
    
    The Australian Subsidiary send 500 to 1000 people to the U.S. per year,
    for meetings, training and so on. I proposed a similar negotiation, and
    was ignored.  Hey I also proposed a way of saving around $.5M on our
    phone bill, and was ignored...
    
    Do we really wan't to improve ourselves?
    
    q
    

    Lionel's note was on...I even had a ticket agent issue me a new one
    DURING CHECKIN because she couldn't believe how high my fare was!  I,
    like Steve, made my own reservations then had TC confirm them.
    
    Other tricks...I ask the client if they have a preferred hotel.  The
    difference between their rate and the Digital rate is usally about 40%.
    
    Book on charter airlines...it's $79 Dallas-New York on Republic
    Airways.
    
    All tickets on major carriers are refundable...you just hand in the
    unused ticket and it goes towards your next ticket, no prob.
    
    Traveling twice to the same destination?  Back-to-back 'em, and, since
    you're staying over a Saturday, you're saving hundreds.
    
    Of course, all of this is against policy, so you run a risk saving the
    company money in spite of themselves, but...
    
    Luckily, I've found a good TC person in Dallas named Karen.  No one
    else in her office could find their butt in a phone booth, but she's
    excellent.  If you ask for her, tell her "Brent sent you".
    
    Don't get Cooked, kids!

    
    if it makes you feel better aanother company booked me a flight at a
    couple of a day notice, $800 return.
    
    Going to Guide Travel later to book the same flight, I found the
    airline has a walkup fare fully reservable $155 1 way!
    
    Now *that* was gouging by somebody somewhere!
    
    Simon

    re: .5
    
    >I have also found that TC makes no effort to find the lowest available
    >fares, even without using consolidators, and ignores requests for
    >particular airlines and flight times.  From now on, I intend to make
    
    Maybe this is because I called TC myself, but back in November, they
    not only looked for the lowest fair, they booked me on my requested
    airline and times because it was the same as the lowest cost fare.
    
    Bob

Another concern: In late December that air carriers had a fare war and I knew 
I was going to be traveling to California sometime in January or February. 
When I called Thomas Cook and said I wanted to take advantage of the fare wars 
in progress and the TC agent said she knew nothing of any fare wars. I mean, 
gee, do these people read newspapers or watch television? Here in Rochester, 
NY the three big carriers (United/Delta/American) take out large ads in the
local newspapers. And there are always full-page ads in USA Today.
I expect TC agents to be totally up to speed on major changes in air fares and
they never seem to be. They just rely totally on their computer data base. 

Regards,

Jim

RE: .0

 >> Once I explained I was using a consolidator....


What is a consolidator?

    How about sharing some information on how to best use consolidators and
    the like to leverage some business as well as personal travel.

    A couple of years back while working in the training center in Bedford,
    Ma.  I had to make a trip to Munich to teach a course there.  I went
    and asked about the ticket... $2,200.00+ for the Business Class round
    trip.  I checked and I could fly Icelandic Air to Luxemburg and take
    the train from there to Munich, for about $680.00 Round trip.  I asked
    if I could do that and Also take my wife and the fair would only be
    about half.  Corporate Finance said no, they could not handle that.
    When I checked in at Munich and explained, the Cost Center Manager said
    you should have called, taken the BC ticket, and we could have had
    Tickets for you and your wife at the airport.  We then could have
    refunded the tickets, and it would have been cheaper.  
    
    I guess that you can not change the rules even to save money if you are
    so big.
    
    Dave

    I always call the airlines first to get the best price.  Then I call
    Thomas Cook.  I have, on occasion caught Thomas Cook with their pants
    down -- charging me a higher price than the airline quoted.  Their
    explanation was that their computers were not up to date.
    
    In general, my experience with travel agencies has been that in spite
    of all of their promises, they do not always get you the lowest fare. 
    Whether this is intentional on their part or not, I cannot say.  But I
    can say that if each of us checked with the airlines BEFORE calling
    Thomas Cook, we'd save a considerable amount of money just by catching
    Thomas Cook's mistakes.  Which raises the question:  why the heck
    should we even use a travel agent?
    

Consolidators are (sometimes) shady operators (sometimes staffed by
illegal aliens) who pick up tickets the airlines can't sell and sell
them at low advertised prices. When you finally add in all the little
extra charges like taxes and delivery fees, the price isn't as low as
advertised. Also the restrictions are pretty severe, and can include:
no inflight meal, no refund for any reason, a one-item carry-on limit,
no advance boarding pass (which can get you bumped and then you lose)
and many others. Enough to possibly make the flight unpleasant. On top
of that, they want your credit card number over the phone, and you have
to *purchase* the ticket right then and there or they won't make a
reservation for you, and there's no backing out, you're instantly committed.

If you're a canny wheeler-dealer, you may be able to take advantage of
consolidators. Most folks should avoid them like the plague.

	Re. .15

	Mike,

	I think you are confusing consolidators with shady travel agents for
	*charter* flights. Consolidation is a legitimate business, written up
	about recently in the Wall Street Journal as well as profiled in 
	"The Marketplace" on NPR. 

	Basically, an airline sells its unused tickets for a given flight to
	a consolidator about 24 hours or so before the flight. Since the 
	airline can not sell these seats themselves, they will try to get
	whatever money they can get. The consolidators will try to sell these
	for a low price. The advantage for the buyer is that often you will
	get chepaer tickets *without* many of the restrictions, like Sat. 
	night stayover, 7-day advance purchase, etc. These tickets have
	none of the restictions that Mike mentions, like no inflight meals
	and one carry-on bag. 

	The disadvantage is that one is not guaranteed to get a ticket like
	this on all flights, and you don't about them until the very end. 
	But for emergency trips, these can be worthwhile looking into. 

    re .15 and .16
    
    A consolidator can be either of these things and also ...
    
    A legitimate travel agent who has been contracted by an airline to 
    sell tickets on a route on a semi-charter basis to ensure full planes.
    The agent contracts to buy 50 tickets per flight, and is given a
    discount (usually considerable).  The agent sells the tickets for an 
    amount make himself a profit.  The fare on the ticket is the correct
    fare for the route.  What you actually paid is discounted.  You must
    usually pay for these flights with cash / cheque.  Charge cards are
    not usually allowed, because the agent's fee to the cahrge card
    company would cost him too much.
    
    The price of these tickets can vary day by day depending on how
    desparate the consolidator is to sell his committment of tickets!
    
    Legitimate business ... but can be hard to find.
    
    Stuart
    
    
    

>     A couple of years back while working in the training center in Bedford,
>     Ma.  I had to make a trip to Munich to teach a course there.  I went
>     and asked about the ticket... $2,200.00+ for the Business Class round
>     trip.  I checked and I could fly Icelandic Air to Luxemburg and take
>     the train from there to Munich, for about $680.00 Round trip.  I asked
>     if I could do that and Also take my wife and the fair would only be
>     about half.  Corporate Finance said no, they could not handle that.
>     When I checked in at Munich and explained, the Cost Center Manager said
>     you should have called, taken the BC ticket, and we could have had
>     Tickets for you and your wife at the airport.  We then could have
>     refunded the tickets, and it would have been cheaper.  
    
I believe that Corporate Finance said no because of official corporate
policy:  

  "Downgrading of airline tickets to accommodate the travel of others
   is prohibited.  Digital will reimburse the employee only for the cost
   of the actual ticket(s) used."  (5.11, page 5 of 13)

There are obvious cases where individuals could personally benefit AND
save the company money, but 'trading' of this sort can lead to serious
abuse.  (I will leave it to the imagination of the reader to consider
what would happen if everyone was allowed to get reimbursed for the
regular (or maximum) amount allowed, and then get there however they choose.)

'Trading' is disallowed by most companies since the benefits are
vastly outweighed by the risks.

-Jean

    For those folks with access to CompuServe, we've found that spending a
    few minutes in SABRE can be very worthwhile.  We saved my
    brother-in-law over $100 on a flight to visit us.  Do that a few times,
    and you've paid for CompuServe.
    
    Travel agents probably don't have much incentive to find the lowest
    fare for you.  It takes them more time, and the commission structure
    doesn't turn that into more money for them.

In fairness to Thomas Cook, American Express, or any travel agent, it isn't all
their fault (or their doing).  It is really the airlines who don't want you to
get these discounts.

Price discrimination is part, and indeed a very big part, of their market plan.
That's why they have thousands of fares, change them by the minute, establish
ridiculous restrictions, limit the number of seats by price class, charge one
guy $200 for the same ride the guy next to him paid $2,000, and on and on ...

The whole idea is to make the person who MUST travel pay through the nose without
isolating the most price sensitive traveler.  It's just simple game theory --
fill every possible empty seat but don't charge one cent less than you have to.

I'm not arguing that travel agents shouldn't get you the cheapest possible seat
(after all that's why they are there) but everytime someone finds and takes
advanatage of an opportunity to pay less than they are willing and able to pay,
guess who's going to try to make sure that doesn't happen the next time around?

We can all play the game but sometimes you win and sometimes you gotta lose.

    I recently had to fly to Hawaii on business. I contacted Thomas Cook
    several weeks in advance to make reservations and told them that I
    would stay over Saturday to get the best airfare. They quoted me a
    price several hundred dollars higher than published rates in the local
    newspaper. I contacted several of the airlines and found that I could
    purchase fully refundable tickets up to 2 days prior to my flight for
    the rate published in the newspaper. I phoned TC and told them of this.
    They said that this is not a published fair that their system shows. I
    explain to them that I contacted several of the airlines and found
    similar savings. They were able to get me the lower rate, but, said
    that they had to manually book the flight.
    
    TC said that they would have my tickets to me about 1 week prior to my
    departure. The tickets did not arrive till the day before my flight.
    This was after I made several frantic calls and TC had to have them
    FED-Xed to my house. I found the people at TC to be very non-responsive
    and had very poor customer service reps to deal with.

    I had a conversation today with:
    
    Sharlet Trilling (DTN 223-7987, POWDML::TRILLING)
    
    who is responsible for Digital's relationship with Thomas Cook. She was
    very interested in my experience and says that Digital is trying to
    get the situation improved. She is interested in any and all cases of
    Thomas Cook not giving you the best fare. In fact I've sent her some of
    the replies from this note so don't be surprised if you get a call from
    her.
    
    From talking to Sharlet the way it is meant to work is that the
    agent is first meant to quote you the lowest UNRESTRICTED fare
    they can find. Then they are MEANT to ask you if your travel plans
    are flexible and explain cheaper options that involve restrictions
    eg Saturday stayover etc. It appears that it is this that is not
    happening.
    
    As far as consolidators and other non standard cheap fares are concerned
    they are not meant to offer these sort of fares by default due to the
    onerous restrictions. But they are dfully authorized to seek them out if
    the traveller asks for them or points out how to get them.
    
    I pointed out that the standard audits of TC don't show the major
    problem because the audit will show that in close to all cases TC do
    indeed book passengers at the lowest UNRESTRICTED fares. But as I
    pointed out in many cases DEC travellers can accept some restrictions
    eg non changeability, saturday stayover etc.
    
    Sharlet was very open to hearing about the problems I saw and said that
    she is interested in hearing from other people where Thomas Cook has
    screwed up. She can use these documented cases in discussion with
    Thomas Cook. In some cases it involves getting money refunded to Digital. 
    
    So bottom line. If Thomas Cook screws up let Sharlet know, it's the
    only way of getting the problem fixed at source.
    
    Dave

    If a travel agent has an on-site office in one of their customers then
    there have been occasions in the past when they have been staffed
    mainly by trainees and neophytes.
    
    It means that the customer, e.g. Digital, is used as the on-the-job
    training base for the travel agent.

>There are obvious cases where individuals could personally benefit AND
>save the company money, but 'trading' of this sort can lead to serious
>abuse.  (I will leave it to the imagination of the reader to consider
>what would happen if everyone was allowed to get reimbursed for the
>regular (or maximum) amount allowed, and then get there however they choose.)


Well, I don't need a lot of imagination for this, because in the previous 
company where I worked, they worked with fixed amounts. It was an extremely
simple, flexible and workable system. For most major cities in the world
they had a fixed "day tariff". For example, one day Paris would be worth 
200$. The whole process , as far as the company was concerned was: You walked
up to your secretary, told her that you were going 5 days to Paris. She
wrote a cheque of 1000$ , and that was it! The rest was up to you, how to get
there, where to sleep etc. No computer systems, no receipts, no checking by 
three,four secretaries and 5 managers. 
Very simple. And I doubt if this system was much more expensive , than ours, if
you take into account all the savings on all the admin overhead.

Oh,BTW, this was for a company with +150.000 employees. It should be possible for a
small company like us to do something similar...

Timo

re: .24  

I love it!   The auditors would go out of their minds!


8-)

Bob

    re:.24,26
    My understanding of MITRE is a bit different.  They're a government
    agency, so they buy tickets at GSA rates.  These are negotiated for all
    government civilian travel, and are a totally different fare schedule
    from what the rest of us pay, established via competitive bidding. 
    It's a fairly simple fare schedule, especially compared to the wacko
    stuff the airlines normally pull.  But it also limits choice of
    airline.
    
    Hotel and meal rates are set on a per diem; for any given destination,
    they get a sum of money to spend or keep.  A friend from MITRE who met
    me several times a year at meetings would go to a supermarket on Monday
    night to stock up on breakfast food.  And he knew the good inexpensive
    restaurants.  But the per diem was low enough that he had to be careful
    to break even.

    re .24: I don't think that system would be legal in many countries
    (taxwise etc.).
    
    But, most countries do allow fixed per diems for 'personal' expenses
    (meals etc.) and often for hotels. I don't know why we don't use
    this... it would be a great simplification.
    
    Well, maybe I do know... the per diems allowed by the taxman are
    probably higher than the actual average. E.g. here in Germany, the per
    diem maximums for a few countries are (using an exhange rate of Dm 1.70
    = US$ 1):
    
    Germany (i.e. domestic)	$37.65
    Belgium			$78.82
    France			$68.82
    Italy			$94.71
    Sweden		       $134.71
    
    etc. etc.
    

    Long, long ago DEC did per diem for F/S folkes in training.
    
    Overall, we probably don't use it so we can consume $1.00 in overhead
    (in figuring expenses, chasing down those that spent $2 too much for a
    meal) for every $0.10 we save by not having per diem.
    
    Lee ('Rosies of Maynard' veteran)

I just got a voicemail from a guy named Marty Mott (?) who said he is the 
newly appointed Project Director for Thomas Cook responsible for the Digital 
account. I guess someone had forwarded him one of my replies in here (or from 
the Digital notes conference) and he was responding personally saying they 
were initiating extensive training and setting high standards for their agents
handling the Digital account. Marty's number is (508)897-3622 x9275. I suggest 
you contact him directly if you have an Thomas Cook issues.

Regards,

Jim

    
    The TC people have just gone through a week-end course in New Hamster
    (in January...oooh, *that* should raise morale!) on "how to handle
    Digital".  Whilst this may give some folk new attitudes and an
    understanding of how Digital travel is supposed to work (God knows,
    someone needs to know), it won't help much on the general skill-set.  I
    ask for one person...if I don't get her, I call back.  I don't have the
    time to train some bubble-gum-chewing bird-brain on what a travel-agent
    is supposed to do, how hotels work, or which airlines are still
    airborne  ("No, Cindy-Lou, we'll pass on those cheapest-fare Eastern
    tickets, thenk-kew").
    
    A portion of the responsiveness you're seeing is because people
    have complained that TC doesn't help them get their work done, TC
    stands in the way instead.  This is not entirely TC's fault.  They've
    been given guidelines to work within that, unfortunately, sometimes
    conflict with the day-to-day activity of making money and servicing our
    customers.  
    
    ("No, sir.  The hotel in Mexico City is booked"..."THE hotel?"..."Yes,
    sir, the Digital-approved hotel.  You'll have to address that user's
    group another time, I'm sorry..."  A similar scenario actually
    happened, by the by).  
    
    My understanding is that the new policy, and the thrust of the New
    Hamster training, is to show them how to *help* us do our jobs.  
    
    ("We are *not* the enemy, we are your *client*, d**n it, stop shooting!")
    
    Although this remains to be seen, it *is* a step in the right
    direction.  My understanding was that, instead of TFSOs, management was
    merely booking extraneous personnel through TC on non-connecting
    back-to-backs through Atlanta.  Poof!  You're living on beer nuts for the
    rest of your natural life!
    
    If you'd like to help the TC rejuvenation process, shoot off a note to
    the local TC manager when an agent is good, competent, helpful, has
    gone out of their way, etc.  Praise the good as well as castigate the
    bad, 'cause I think turn-over at TC is high and getting
    higher...they're writing the agents names in pencil...on their
    nameplates.  Wouldn't you hate to lose the good ones and just be left
    with the dregs?
    
    As an aside, I hope whoever is blithely copying off entries from this
    notes file and forwarding to outside sources has read the little
    warning on exactly that kind of activity...?

    
    Well I'm glad to hear that things are happening at TC to improve the
    services offered to Digital.
    
    Re:
    
>    As an aside, I hope whoever is blithely copying off entries from this
>    notes file and forwarding to outside sources has read the little
>    warning on exactly that kind of activity...?
    
    As I pointed out in a previous reply I extracted some of these replies
    and forwarded them to the Digital Employee responsible for the TC
    relationship. I did this to help her with her job. She had asked me to
    let her know if I found other instances of TC doing the wrong thing.
    
    For all I know she doesn't know how to to use NOTES so sending her a
    message telling her to look at particular notes would have just added
    to her workload. So I forwarded the notes. They've been posted in a
    Digital Public place so the poster should expect them to be read by ANY
    Digital employee.
    
    There seems to be a massive misunderstanding by some people on what
    Digital Policy is on notesfiles and mail. The policy precludes the
    following:
    
    	a) Posting mail from other people in notesfiles
    	b) Extracting notes from MEMBERS ONLY notesfiles and sending them
           to non members.
    
    Quite sensibly and correctly it does not preclude people from
    extracting notes from Digital public notes files and forwarding them to
    other employees. To do so would be an unneccessary barrier to people
    doing their jobs. Remember you could always send a mail message with a
    pointer instead. Sending the actual note is just an added courtesy to
    the recipient.
    
    I work by a simple rule. If I wouldn't want my manager to see a note I
    don't post it. Notes you wouldn't want your manager to see probably
    have no place in a notesfile anyway because they're probably flames
    or something else that is worthless.
    
    Regarding the call Jim Michol got. I wouldn't be at all surprised if
    the Digital TC representative hadn't have told TC about Jim's problems
    with TC. Jim's .10 reply was one of replies I sent her. Since Digital's
    TC representative's job is ensuring Digital gets a good deal from TC
    I'd say that communicating problems to that person would be considered
    part of her job. Now of course if I or any other random Digital
    employee had sent internal notes to other business entitiies I'd agree
    that that would not be proper. Remember Jim Michol did decide to tell
    ALL Digital employees about his TC problem when he posted his .10 reply
    here.
    
    Dave

Re: .32

>    There seems to be a massive misunderstanding by some people on what
>    Digital Policy is on notesfiles and mail. The policy precludes the
>    following:
>    
>    	a) Posting mail from other people in notesfiles

True, unless you have permission from the author or the mail is clearly intended
for wide distribution.  The policy (P&P 6.54) says:

RESPONSIBILITY FOR CONTENT OF MESSAGES SENT OR POSTED ON NETWORK

Messages mailed or posted over the Digital network are the
responsibility of the original author.  Posting these materials in a
notesfile/conference without the explicit permission of the author is
prohibited and is a violation of this policy.

When forwarding messages or posting them to conferences, removal or
falsification of the original message header (which indicates the
author) is prohibited.

| This policy covers all messages addressed to individuals and
| organizations.  It is not intended to restrict the distribution of
| general announcements, course listings, etc., or messages originally
| posted on external bulletin boards such as Usenet news groups.


>    	b) Extracting notes from MEMBERS ONLY notesfiles and sending them
>           to non members.

False.  There is nothing in corporate policies about this.  My personal view
is that those conferences which are restricted to joined members for the
purpose of "protecting the privacy" of the authors of notes rather than for
protection of proprietary information are providing a false sense of security
for the members.  Anyone can extract any note and send it to any other
Digital employee without having violated any corporate policies.  (Harassment
policies might come into play, though, depending on the circumstances.)

Digital information security policies are relevant, though.  This conference
is labelled "DIGITAL Internal Use Only", which means that information found
within this conference must not be given to non-employees.  However, contractors
(including Thomas Cook in this case) are considered "employees" for this
purpose and no policy was violated here.

					Steve

    I also was contacted by Marti Mott from TC. He indicated that he had
    been supplied with several responses from Digital employees regarding
    the level of servicethat we had received from TC in the past and the
    level of service to expect in the future. I was a bit miffed at first
    that someone had passed a Digital internal use only document outside of
    Digital. I then realized that it was probaly the right thing to do in
    this case. If TC doesn't know that thwere is a problem, how can they
    fix it!!! I explained to Marti, that I had been very displeased
    with
    the level of service that I had received during my initial dealings
    with TC. I also explained that last week I had the opportunity to deal
    with a very pleasant and professional agent at TC in booking my flight
    to Boston for Network Academy. 
    
    I have given TC another chance and been pleased with the results. I
    suggest that each of you also give them a second chance (what other
    choice do we have) and see how well they perform.

It's not only that Digital pays to much, another thing which is costing
a lot of money is that travel approval is often not given at the time asked
for. This means that in cases where you could fly cheap economy you have to
fly the same economy class but for twice the price, or even fly business
class, which within Europe is very expensive.

Since I travel a lot I've quite some examples where, if I travelled with
more than just myself, that one or more of the group had an economy ticket
which was twice the price of the economy ticket of someone else.

Not so long ago two peers went to Boston , one got travel approval 
4 weeks in advance and paid Dfl 1100,-- ($550 appr.) the other paid about
Dfl 2000,-- ($1000 appr.) for the same ticket but was only approved
two days in advance.

Another small example is:

a guy in Holland asks for a laptop, his manager says that's to expensive,
a few weeks later the guy has to go to the US, since this is all approved
quite late he gets an business class ticket (Dfl 6000,-). A normal economy
would have costed about Dfl1600,- the difference would have bought the
guy a laptop.

As long as we need to travel, but approval is difficult, only last minute
work we allways end up with very expensive tickets. 

Another things which is enoying is that travel to the US or Asia is very 
difficult here in Europe, probably one thinks that since this is far, it's
a holiday or fun, or expensive and very often it just don't get approved,
while if you ask for travel approval a week later for travel in Europe,
this is approved, while European flights are much more expensive than
a lot of trans-atlantic flights.

Maybe the approval policies should also change.

Ciao,

Michiel

    
    Attached is a note I entered some time ago in the Holiday_Travel notes
    file show an example of restrictions imposed by travel consolidators:
    
    Dennis
            ---------------------------------------------------------
          <<< NETCAD::USER$80:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HOLIDAY_TRAVEL.NOTE;2 >>>
                         -< Holiday Travel Conference >-
================================================================================
Note 686.5               Discount agency & consolidators                 5 of 13
ICS::MORRISEY                                        61 lines  22-JUN-1992 16:47
              -< Notes on consolidator restrictions on services >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 A number of people have asked about and mentioned "consolidator" companies
 as a source for air tickets that undercut the published rates.

 I was in touch with one of these companies (Access Intl.), and I thought
 it might be useful for people to understand the kinds of restrictions
 that these companies put on their services and air tickets, when one is
 considering whether to use them or not.

 The following are "warnings" attached to the Access Intl. literature:
 1. Ticket delivery dates and methods are not guaranteed.
 2. Airline flight times are not guaranteed.
 3. Airline routings are not guaranteed.
 4. No special meals.
 5. No advance seat assignment.
 6. No special luggage.
 7. No unaccompanied minors.
 8. No frequent flier mileage  :-(
 9. Check-in must be at least 2 hours prior to departure.
10. No refunds for:
	a. Flight delays
	b. Changes in routing
	c. Delays in ticket delivery
11. No changes can be made:
	a. No date changes.
	b. No airline changes.
	c. No delivery method changes.
	d. No name changes.
	e. No destinations changes
	f. No origin changes.
12. If you cancel, your right to a refund is limited:
	a. Reservations are not considered canceled unless tickets are
	   received at their New York office at least 1 day prior to departure.
	b. Outside of 3 days prior to departure, there will be a $100 fee
	   per passenger.
	c. Within 3 business days of departure, there will be no refund.
	d. Anytime after departure, there will be no refund.
	e. Airport "no show", there will be no refund.
	f. Unused portions of partially used tickets are nonrefundable.
	g. Delivery fees are nonrefundable.
	h. Handling fees are nonrefundable.
13. If a flight is overbooked and you are denied boarding:
	a. The airline will try to provide passage on their next flight.
	b. No meals will be provided.
	c. No overnight accommodations will be provided.
	d. Passage on another airlines will not be provided.
14. If a flight is canceled or connections missed:
	a. Hotel rooms will not be provided for any reason.
	b. Meal vouchers will not be provided for any reason.
	c. Travel on other airlines will not be provided for any reason.
15. Refunds, if due, take a minimum of 8 weeks.
16. Any misspelled names of passengers or incorrect addresses on the
	ticket order form will be considered failure to follow instructions.
        No changes are possible.
16. Ticket delivery fee $10.00.
17. Signed confirmation of acceptable of warnings required.
    
    Obviously, restrictions may vary somewhat by consolidator company.
    Some companies will sell tickets only thru travel agents (you must 
    generally TELL the travel agency you are interested in a consolidator 
    ticket); some companies will deal direct with the public.

Re:                   <<< Note 2841.36 by ICS::MORRISEY >>>

> I was in touch with one of these companies (Access Intl.), and I thought
> it might be useful for people to understand the kinds of restrictions
> that these companies put on their services and air tickets, 

> 1. Ticket delivery dates and methods are not guaranteed.
> 2. Airline flight times are not guaranteed.
> 3. Airline routings are not guaranteed.

How does this differ from normal airline tickets?  :-)

> 8. No frequent flier mileage  :-(

I've never had this problem.  For example, we used one last summer going to the
U.K. and my whole family got frequent flier mileage with United.

I think they're covering every contingency, here.  But your mileage may vary
(pun intended... :-) 

-  David

    
    	I don't know if this has been suggested before or actually does take
    place but here goes....
    
    	As many of you already know it is cheaper to buy a ticket where you
    stay over a weekend than one where you come back the same week... 
    
    	My manager at my previous company flew from England to the
    US, travelling economy class & staying over two weekends. This flight
    cost about 650 pounds. Another person did approximately the same flight
    but travelled business class & did not stay over the weekend & the
    flight cost around 1500 pound... 850 pounds more... 
    
    So anyway... when money began getting tight they decided on an
    informal arrangement where if you stayed over the weekend then the company 
    would help to pay for the hotel & food... ( within reason.. ). This
    worked quite well as you got to see more of the country you were
    visiting while the company saved tons of money... You just couldn't
    loose....
    
    	While I appreciate that someone who does a lot of travelling & is
    married will not want to stay over a weekend & go economy class... it 
    may be worth giving the option to people who don't get a lot of travel 
    the option of doing this.... 
    
    	I don't think people should be pressured into doing this.. but I'd
    like to be given the option. 
    
    	In my case... I'm young, free & single so I'd love to be able to do
    this... that way if I do get to travel then I'll see a lot more of the
    countries I'd probably never able to see. :->
    
    	Thats my 2 pence worth.. :->
    
    	Rick.
    
 

    Rick
    
    You're right that staying a Saturday saves money.
    I've used this on 2 occasions with trips from Paris to Moscow.
    The nett saving was around $500 each time.

You can do even better and not sacrifice any of your own time if you have
more than one trip to a particular destination and the schedule is fixed:

Let's say I need to be in Boston April 4-8  and then again April 25-29

I buy my first round trip ticket leaving Denver to Boston on April 4, and
returning to Denver from Boston on April 29.  My second ticket is purchased
leaving Boston to Denver on April 8 and returning to Boston on April 25.

As you can see, both tickets span a weekend, and neither of them require
that I spend any additional time away from my family, nor do they require
my CC manager to approve the additional expense of staying 1 day to save
money on airfare.

--Scott

    re -.1
    
    That's called booking "back-to-back".  Some airlines have programs that
    look for that sort of thing, but I've only known one person to get
    caught doing it.  It's NOT illegal, as some say, the airline will just
    "re-arrange" your flight for you.  Worth the minimal risk to save
    Digital money, if you please.
    
    re -.2,-.3
    
    Official policy in my department is that, even though a weekend
    stayover will save $500 and your hotel and food is only $200, we will
    NOT receive any of the difference.  You're simply out of pocket $200.

    Re: being personally out of pocket $200 -- I think you should escalate
    this to your ops management as I'd suggest that someone in your
    department is being measured on the wrong numbers.

Of course, if you book back-to-back on two different airlines, they can't
catch you.  BTW, what allows airlines to change your back-to-back bookings?

    
    Re: .41 booking "back-to-back"
    
    I don't get why this is something you could get "caught" doing.
    Why would it be an issue if you found a way to make your travel
    arrangements that would cost you the less?  What does "re-arrange"
    your flight mean?
    
    Steve
    

	re: Saturday stays

	I do this if it's cost effective when I travel. Just make sure to
	factor in the cost of any days of work lost.

	For example, a 2-day conference that runs Wed-Thur. If I stay over
	through Saturday night, the difference in air fare is $700 -- more
	than enough to cover the hotel, meals, a rental car -- and still
	save the company $300.

	But what about my time? How much is one day of my time worth? In
	this case, I'd have lost Friday anyway (no evening flights on
	thursday) to 6 hours of travel, so it's a no brainer. But it's
	something to look at.

	re: "back to back" booking

	Maybe this is something other people have thought of, but it just
	came to me...

	I have a specific example of a flight from Manchester, NH to Dallas,
	TX that would cost just over $1000 if booked without a Saturday
	stay, and only $300 if you stay the weekend. In this case, it would
	actually pay to book "back to back" and only use half of each round
	trip! You'd pay $600 for the two tickets, or $1000 for the one.

	Roy

    If you look at the detailed Ts&Cs of the bookings you'll find that some
    airlines do not allow back-to-back bookings and say that such bookings
    will be re-structured.  This is why they have programs to find them and
    then 'sort them out'.
    
    WRT booking two returns and using one coupon from each...
    
    The outbound flight is fine.  But when you try to use only the return
    coupon of the second ticket you'll probably find that it all goes
    wrong.  Essentially the fact that you didn't fly the first coupon 
    invalidates the second -- again it's in the detailed Ts&Cs.

>     If you look at the detailed Ts&Cs of the bookings you'll find that some
>     airlines do not allow back-to-back bookings and say that such bookings
>     will be re-structured.  This is why they have programs to find them and
>     then 'sort them out'.

   In May, 1993, there was an article in Section B of the Wall Street
   Journal.  It basically states that major airlines are not enforcing
   the rules. From a business perspective, do you really want to
   antagonize frequent travelers?

   As others have pointed out, if you book on two different airlines,
   they can't really do anyting.

   I have booked back to back on American Airlines, including using
   my Frequent Flyer number with no problems. Others in our  group
   are booking back to back on United, again with no problems.

>     WRT booking two returns and using one coupon from each...
>     
>     The outbound flight is fine.  But when you try to use only the return
>     coupon of the second ticket you'll probably find that it all goes
>     wrong.  Essentially the fact that you didn't fly the first coupon 
>     invalidates the second -- again it's in the detailed Ts&Cs.

  If you use the outbound on each ticket there's little they can do.


  Gim

    When I posed a similar back-to-back question to Thomas Cook, I was told
    to rip out that unused ticket and hide it.  (AKA don't advertise what
    you're doing.)  They also said that while you'll most likely get away
    with it when you fly (as I did), you may still get "Caught" anytime
    during the next six months if one of their ticket usage audits spits
    out your number.  (Again, pretty unlikely.)  Thomas Cook said that 
    getting "Caught" amounts to the airline sending you a bill for more $$$.
    
    - Greg

     re: Back to back tickets....how it's done...
    
    	You should use the flight coupons in sequence ... you should not
    need to "tear out the unused coupon" so the airline doesn't see it!
    
    Example: Trip 1: Travel NYC to SFO on 01 Jan with return 08 Jan. 
             Trip 2: Travel NYC to SFO on 24 Jan with return 01 Feb.
    	    
    	     Ticket #1:  01-Jan: NYC to SFO   &    01-Feb: SFO to NYC
     	     Ticket #2:  08-Jan: SFO to NYC   &    24-Jan: NYC to SFO
    
    	The tickets should be written so that on trip 1 you use the FIRST
    FLIGHT COUPON from the FIRST TICKET outbound, and you use the FIRST
    FLIGHT COUPON from the SECOND TICKET on your return (Jan 01 & Jan 08
    in the example above).
    
    	On your second trip you use the SECOND coupon from the SECOND
    TICKET on your outbound (the first coupon was used on trip 1)
    and the SECOND coupon from the FIRST TICKET for your return (again,
    the first coupon on this ticket was used on trip 1). (Jan 24 and 
    Feb 1 are used for this tip in the example above.)
    
    	Note that the second ticket BEGINS at your turn-around point!  
    
    Flight coupons in each 'ticket' are thus used in sequence.	Don't 
    fumble around at check-in.  Just give them the right ticket for 
    the right flight!

    re -.1
    
    Exactly.